From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri May 1 00:08:30 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 17:08:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? Message-ID: Message-ID: Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: snip > And yet I am quite passionately opposed to lockdowns, lock, stock and barrel. Hmm. You are in the profession that was of most concern for "flattening the curve." i.e., stretching out the pandemic to where the medical establishment would not be overwhelmed. If you assume no vaccine and no treatments then the integrated death total will be the same for a fast or a slow pandemic. A fast one would mean a total collapse of the medical establishment and people dying in the streets. LIke: https://www.thedailybeast.com/coronavirus-chaos-grips-ecuador-as-bodies-rot-in-the-street Vaccine or effective treatment would change the picture. > We the people must be allowed to make the tradeoffs regarding our lives. Does such a world view leave any room for public health? > If you buy into the virus doom hype, by all means cower at home. Give up on most of your life in the hope of avoiding a 1:1000 to 1:100,000,000 chance of dying, depending on your demographic. Given my age and other factors, it is more like 1:10 for me. If you use the expected, 70% infected before herd immunity kicks in, then around 240 million folks in the US will be infected. Using 1% as the case fatality rate, that means about 2.4 million will die. Keith From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri May 1 03:29:22 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 23:29:22 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: References: <00c701d6198e$66e7dc50$34b794f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 11:21 AM SR Ballard wrote: > As a note, without government intervention, us ?cowerers? are not allowed > to stay home. Due to government action, I was allowed to stay home without > losing my job. > > AND in the South, we were not legally allowed to wear face masks, because > KKK, before government intervention. > ### Let's not conflate different issues. I am against government-imposed lockdowns, orders forbidding hospitals to admit patients, hairstylists to cut hair and scientists to do science. I strongly *support* reasonable infection control measures including wearing face masks. If there are laws that interfere with such measures, the laws need to be eliminated - but you do not need to order mass house arrests to achieve that. The decision to withdraw from some activities must be made by the individual citizens, organizations and businesses. Only individuals have the particular knowledge needed to make correct trade-offs. If you believe your life is in acute danger at work, you may decide not to go to work (unless you specifically signed up for a dangerous job, like a soldier). Contrary to what you say, staying at home is always an option. You were allowed to stay home even before the lockdowns. As to the ability to keep one's job, lockdowns caused the largest spike in unemployment in the US ever, so no, none of us should count our chickens before they are hatched - all of us could yet lose our jobs to layoffs and bankruptcies if this madness of locked-down crowds continues. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri May 1 03:45:07 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 23:45:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] A fly on the wall In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 8:18 AM Brent Allsop wrote: > > Last month I realized the best solution would be to find a good pair of > socks, > ### I recommend Nike paired socks that come in the right and left variants, just like shoes. They fit much better than ambipedal ones. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri May 1 04:51:03 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 00:51:03 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 8:11 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > If you assume no vaccine and no treatments then the integrated death > total will be the same for a fast or a slow pandemic. A fast one > would mean a total collapse of the medical establishment and people > dying in the streets. > ### The concern about overwhelming the medical system was based on erroneous assumptions about IFR. Since the true IFR is at least an order of magnitude lower than the initial estimates there is no need to flatten the curve to protect ICUs from being overwhelmed. The fact that the initial IFR was vastly overestimated became known a long time ago, even prior to the lockdowns in the US, so lockdowns happened because actual science was ignored in the storm of hype and propaganda. However, it is not true that a slow epidemic has the same integral of morbidity and mortality as a fast epidemic. Slowing an epidemic lowers R0 and thus lowers incidence rate (i.e. the fraction of people who eventually get infected, or the integral of morbidity over a period of time). There is no doubt that reducing transmission by lockdowns will reduce overall mortality from the Wuhan virus - however, that is not a sufficient argument to recommend lockdowns. Standard infection control measures, including use of PPE, hand washing, isolation of known cases, tracing of infectious contacts, isolation of most vulnerable persons, and others, are very effective at controlling epidemics and their economic and social costs are literally orders of magnitude lower than lockdowns. Lockdowns are the stupidest solution to an exaggerated problem one can imagine, short of just killing everybody. ----------------------------------- > > Does such a world view leave any room for public health? > ### I am all for public health but not when it's politicized by an insane, partisan media and by an insane elite who would see the country burn if it could help them bring down Trump. Also, looks like our public health authorities have been badly damaged by political correctness and racist hiring practices. > > > If you buy into the virus doom hype, by all means cower at home. Give up > on > most of your life in the hope of avoiding a 1:1000 to 1:100,000,000 chance > of dying, depending on your demographic. > > Given my age and other factors, it is more like 1:10 for me. ### This is not plausible. Are you 85 years old, obese, diabetic with COPD, severe CHF and dependent on oxygen at 2l/min? The true IFR for the very elderly might be on the range of 1 - 2%, which is not low and some level of social isolation is reasonable - wear N95 mask in the grocery store, don't go to indoor meetings with many people, disinfect hands often while shopping, don't touch your face while shopping, don't use mass transit, go for walks on the beach rather than indoor gym, etc. Cowering at home won't bring much added benefit on top of these control measures but it will make you miserable. Unless you are a homebody to begin with. -------------------------------- > If you > use the expected, 70% infected before herd immunity kicks in, then > around 240 million folks in the US will be infected. Using 1% as the > case fatality rate, that means about 2.4 million will die > ### These numbers are way off. IFR is probably about 0.2% and the incidence rate is unlikely to exceed 25%, based on comparisons to influenza, which has similar R0: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3196543/ In another article see figure 2 for relationship between R0 and incidence rate (simplified model, there are other models): https://watermark.silverchair.com/cir007.pdf?token=AQECAHi208BE49Ooan9kkhW_Ercy7Dm3ZL_9Cf3qfKAc485ysgAAAoUwggKBBgkqhkiG9w0BBwagggJyMIICbgIBADCCAmcGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAeBglghkgBZQMEAS4wEQQMmETOgpSjalg0sghTAgEQgIICOKni3AiWz7aE8YorVrezaQlBWKPAmBwEETxnPRuFbp3_dAQ3ISCbO1ldRTvQWXXfj8F9FyXgIv16jYsc8pc9ZXWiSpk9y8tYry2MljtnNVy1bjOSTkSM_K30vmMDPoeugW5fPiW75ImDDFGE4MFTvR28Wl5xAAyzvNf3wMR6pSJASelS5vde3CEtG-BETvBatb__ipD-3gZvseEwoBns2uXMgVEyVG9NtEPWn3CMPK4yqTubgZfYQtq1pBAFrGCYDlRzW7uvEGU39EhH1UFhoiMpYpBHtKmJqqu3b80eozbt-bhP8wX8EjPVF7Xui_fxXqJUcJZdp0-Y2QTKKB0_omceNNMDKouoaNchDwRaqqqxjJWrVW12jUZUg2c8JqG7Lvkf7HEtBYyVI9mZv9iqER0coEcPvOPhrQSSh4m0-TZJSorpWmzpeq8OPzP1eupDgOPmJsJ6W-_oFyJnP1qABqF6YMrMIyW7AlVw2kcxHDUhmwU0_EypYVytE72xWk-NfOziCSanvV0YtUg2Pf4fMckIFnvdVo7omcgFw_NoJWQHzKvz6OiFh9gdp0j7ghO5KFd3IqY04tJjtDIlJf8dSMzT2MKUHf_i4jVQBXG3EQX9rXgo39xfuCI9W-eNEqwTnQnrAVlA9NsmvXKbHD5KLv05VhfH1WTTvID7U5CXre4eAbJtRQkkA3pN_3WTswMr7ERPqTx_Qsfyb01WgkvD09Pyuyatdtq5-PQVYsMUoatDfkUpf05xjvY Remember, the initial estimates of incidence rate and mortality were based on incorrect assumptions and false information. Chicom interference with data sharing and their suppression of information gave an erroneous estimate of the doubling rate of the infection, the huge number of asymptomatic and unaccounted-for cases threw off IFR estimates and the garbage information was uncritically fed into standard models for predicting incidence rate. GIGO. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Fri May 1 06:08:02 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 01:08:02 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: References: <00c701d6198e$66e7dc50$34b794f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Government intervention was required to allow the wearing of face masks. Government intervention was required to force my workplace to allow (now mandated) the wearing of masks and gloves. I quit working two months ago, as earlier this year I was nearly hospitalized for pneumonia (again, perhaps the fourth time in my life) so I thought ?let?s just not?. The last straw was when I had a man openly cough in my face, full spray, without so much as an apology. And I had my face coughed on earlier that same day. No masks at work were allowed, no gloves. It would ?scare? people. In my local area, people are already going back to work today. I started back to work Wednesday. We were never under house arrest here. We were always fully able to leave our homes and travel around as much as we like, just everything was closed. It?s not the same. I know it was different in other regions, but my region there was no house arrest. It was just ?pretty please?. My boyfriend was ?laid off? and is receiving unemployment, but he has a job waiting for him in two(ish) weeks when it reopens (and it will). Many, many people have jobs to go back to. But rent and debt is another story all together and will have lasting repercussions. And we can always lose our jobs or be laid off in any economic conditions, not just now. Yes, it?s more likely now, but it?s always been possible. And just like always people will fail to plan for it and it will such and people will suffer just like in ?08 all over again. SR Ballard > On Apr 30, 2020, at 10:29 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: > > > >> On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 11:21 AM SR Ballard wrote: >> As a note, without government intervention, us ?cowerers? are not allowed to stay home. Due to government action, I was allowed to stay home without losing my job. >> >> AND in the South, we were not legally allowed to wear face masks, because KKK, before government intervention. > > ### Let's not conflate different issues. > > I am against government-imposed lockdowns, orders forbidding hospitals to admit patients, hairstylists to cut hair and scientists to do science. > > I strongly *support* reasonable infection control measures including wearing face masks. If there are laws that interfere with such measures, the laws need to be eliminated - but you do not need to order mass house arrests to achieve that. > > The decision to withdraw from some activities must be made by the individual citizens, organizations and businesses. Only individuals have the particular knowledge needed to make correct trade-offs. If you believe your life is in acute danger at work, you may decide not to go to work (unless you specifically signed up for a dangerous job, like a soldier). Contrary to what you say, staying at home is always an option. You were allowed to stay home even before the lockdowns. As to the ability to keep one's job, lockdowns caused the largest spike in unemployment in the US ever, so no, none of us should count our chickens before they are hatched - all of us could yet lose our jobs to layoffs and bankruptcies if this madness of locked-down crowds continues. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Fri May 1 07:50:05 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 09:50:05 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Time loops and real quantum possibles: Ruth Kastner Message-ID: Time loops and real quantum possibles: Ruth Kastner Quantum reality transcends space and time, and background nonlocal processes are needed to make sense of observed physical reality... https://turingchurch.net/time-loops-and-real-quantum-possibles-ruth-kastner-46c933e1c9b0 From ben at zaiboc.net Fri May 1 07:54:28 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 08:54:28 +0100 Subject: [ExI] religious question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 01/05/2020 07:08, Kunvar Thaman wrote: > My mom is a bit more religious, but she worships by doing some praying > for things like the better health of the family or better education > for us, etc. She addresses no one in particular, just closes her eyes > and says stuff like 'May you have ____' . I can see prayer being a form of organising your thoughts, clarifying to yourself what's important to you, what your goals are, etc., or perhaps meditation of some kind. That would certainly be useful. Personally, I wouldn't call it 'prayer', though. It's interesting to think that some atheists might 'pray' in this sense, as well as some religious people. If someone calls themselves religious, but doesn't actually believe in any gods, just has a vague concept of something like an organising force in the universe, then if they pray, their prayers would be in this same sense. I'd have thought, though, that for the most part, prayer is a part of worship (in the sense I mentioned earlier, abasement and begging for favours). The whole kneeling down and placing your hands in a supplicating gesture thing reinforces that. -- Ben Zaiboc From giulio at gmail.com Fri May 1 08:09:03 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 10:09:03 +0200 Subject: [ExI] religious question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I do pray, but I never kneel down or place my hand in supplicating gesture. Most often I just look up at the stars. On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 9:59 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > > On 01/05/2020 07:08, Kunvar Thaman wrote: > > My mom is a bit more religious, but she worships by doing some praying > > for things like the better health of the family or better education > > for us, etc. She addresses no one in particular, just closes her eyes > > and says stuff like 'May you have ____' . > > I can see prayer being a form of organising your thoughts, clarifying to > yourself what's important to you, what your goals are, etc., or perhaps > meditation of some kind. That would certainly be useful. > > Personally, I wouldn't call it 'prayer', though. > It's interesting to think that some atheists might 'pray' in this sense, > as well as some religious people. If someone calls themselves religious, > but doesn't actually believe in any gods, just has a vague concept of > something like an organising force in the universe, then if they pray, > their prayers would be in this same sense. > > I'd have thought, though, that for the most part, prayer is a part of > worship (in the sense I mentioned earlier, abasement and begging for > favours). The whole kneeling down and placing your hands in a > supplicating gesture thing reinforces that. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From ben at zaiboc.net Fri May 1 08:42:32 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 09:42:32 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Nature (was: Re: religious question) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 01/05/2020 07:08, Kunvar Thaman wrote: > My dad thinks that's there's 'something' at play making everything > around us so complex yet so simple. That something may not be someone. > He's more of a 'some universal power' sort of person. He says that the > more we find out the we know less. There's an inherent beauty to > everything, and my dad calls that 'nature'. He believes that nature is > cleverer than we are, and if there's something disagreeing with the > nature, it's wrong. > Ironically, that 'something' or 'universal power' is Evolution (maybe not ironic for your dad, but certainly for some people). I certainly can sympathise with the feeling that the more we learn, the less we feel we know, but that's just a consequence of the learning revealing that there is more to know. We still know more than we did, but realise that there is more to know than we previously thought. So it's not a reason to stop learning. I'm not sure I understand the rest, though, about nature. Defining 'nature' as an inherent beauty to everything, and saying that there are things that can disagree with it is contradictory. I'm not sure where the fairly widespread idea that 'nature knows best' etc., comes from, but it too is contradictory, given our use of technology, medicine, etc. Even wearing clothes. We constantly do 'unnatural' things, and benefit greatly from it. In fact, we'd be long-extinct (or at least never have become what we are now) if not for our propensity to do 'unnatural' things. I don't understand how the idea persists, either, given the glaring bodges that nature has produced, not to mention the extreme cruelty that's inextricably embedded in it. I guess your dad would consider me very wrong, because I see nature as our implacable enemy, to be constantly striven against. Nature (especially biology, and evolution in particular) is like an abusive parent, in my view. We wouldn't be here without it, but it has done us grevious wrong, and our highest priority should be to get away from it as soon as possible. Except we can't. So our only choice is to master it. The way to do that is to learn as much about it as we can, and with that knowledge, build tools to overcome it. -- Ben Zaiboc From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri May 1 10:46:02 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 06:46:02 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Complexity and Evolution (was extropy-chat Digest) In-Reply-To: References: <17A5C072-8C03-4D4C-9E31-EA67E53E67C0@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 6:36 PM Tomaz Kristan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> This can't be really a law. It's only improbable* > Like the Second Law Of Thermodynamics? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From protokol2020 at gmail.com Fri May 1 12:38:39 2020 From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 14:38:39 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Complexity and Evolution (was extropy-chat Digest) In-Reply-To: References: <17A5C072-8C03-4D4C-9E31-EA67E53E67C0@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Like the Second Law Of Thermodynamics? More like the "law", that the lightning never strikes twice in the same place. On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 12:48 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 6:36 PM Tomaz Kristan via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> This can't be really a law. It's only improbable* >> > > Like the Second Law Of Thermodynamics? > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri May 1 13:25:42 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 09:25:42 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Nature (was: Re: religious question) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 4:45 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> I see nature as our implacable enemy, to be constantly striven against.* I agree, nature is trying to kill me. *> Nature (especially biology, and evolution in particular) is like an > abusive parent, in my view. * Yes. If a omnipotent God exists but He chose Evolution as the way to produce complex things like me and you then He can not be benevolent. So the Bible Thumpers are right, Christianity and Darwin are not compatible. > *> our only choice is to master it. The way to do that is to learn as much > about it as we can, and with**that knowledge, build tools to overcome it.* Martin Mull summed up my philosophy in 1978, he made it clear that he didn't want to sit at God's right hand, he didn't even want to be God's son, he wanted to be God. Start 4 min 20 sec in: I WANT TO BE GOD John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri May 1 15:02:56 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 10:02:56 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: <1c5026e5-b7b5-9237-674b-0f431eef605c@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: ### I used this term in a clumsy way, more or less trying to say that a Bayesian mind ascribes P values from the interval between 0 and 1 to all beliefs, a completely non-Bayesian mind uses 1 or 0 for all beliefs, and then there are all those minds in between. That was an imprecise expression but I hope it gets the meaning across. Rafal *OK, I get that. But I cannot conceive of a mind that would either be completely certain about the existence of something or completely certain about the nonexistence of something. For one thing, fine but for everything? The Kruger Dunning effect insures that there will be people whose estimates of probability will be way off about their ability or knowledge, or perhaps just a tad off, like most people. The latter, I think, would be very common.* *bill w* On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 12:05 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 10:03 PM William Flynn Wallace < > foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: > >> If I may ask: would you summarize just what a Bayesian and a nonBayesian >> mind is? The formula and how it is used I know. >> > > ### I used this term in a clumsy way, more or less trying to say that a > Bayesian mind ascribes P values from the interval between 0 and 1 to all > beliefs, a completely non-Bayesian mind uses 1 or 0 for all beliefs, and > then there are all those minds in between. That was an imprecise expression > but I hope it gets the meaning across. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 1 15:50:12 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 08:50:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] why belgium? Message-ID: <012201d61fd0$33d89960$9b89cc20$@rainier66.com> If we want to interpret Covid-19 cases and mortality as a function of government action or inaction, this site is helpful: https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality Why Belgium? They appear to be doing something really super-wrong. The ten populous countries which appear to be the worst in case/fatality ratio are Belgium, UK, France, Italy, Netherlands, Spain Brazil, Iran, USA, Germany. If we look at it in terms of deaths by Covid per capita, the bad guys are Belgium, Spain, Italy, UK, France, Netherlands, USA, Germany, Iran, Brazil. Very puzzling. All of those hard-hit countries have a lot of international travel and a high GDP per capita, which enables a lot of travel, with the possible exception of Iran (I can?t explain that one very easily.) Now there is another confounding factor. If we look at the USA, half the Covid-19 deaths are confined to a geographical area centered at Times Square in New York with a radius of about 50km. About half of that is ocean, but let?s ignore that for the moment and say ok, about 7500 square km, or round up to about 10,000 square km in the USA contains half the C19 mortality. The land area in the USA is about 10million square km, so half of the C-19 deaths are in less than 0.1 percent of the land area, about half of which is ocean. I do not know what to tell those beleaguered unfortunates who live in that less than 0.1 percent of land area, about half of which is ocean, but my first advice is stay the hell away from all mass transit, especially the subways, because those go in tunnels as opposed to the open air. I don?t know how it goes in these other countries in the top 10 worst-hit nations, but I vaguely suspect they too have small areas which concentrate a lot of cases. Have we any Belgians among us? Or Europe hipsters who might know? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri May 1 22:23:31 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 17:23:31 -0500 Subject: [ExI] wacky definition of the day Message-ID: We call our shoes footwear. However, that should be: antifootwear bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat May 2 01:20:39 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 18:20:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? Message-ID: Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 8:11 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > If you assume no vaccine and no treatments then the integrated death > total will be the same for a fast or a slow pandemic. A fast one > would mean a total collapse of the medical establishment and people > dying in the streets. ### The concern about overwhelming the medical system was based on erroneous assumptions about IFR. I think this reports an overwhelmed medical system. What do you think? https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/04/20/838746457/covid-19-numbers-are-bad-in-ecuador-the-president-says-the-real-story-is-even-wo > Since the true IFR is at least an order of magnitude lower than the initial estimates there is no need to flatten the curve to protect ICUs from being overwhelmed. The fact that the initial IFR was vastly overestimated became known a long time ago, even prior to the lockdowns in the US, so lockdowns happened because actual science was ignored in the storm of hype and propaganda. "New report says coronavirus pandemic could last for two years ? and may not subside until 70% of the population has immunity" > However, it is not true that a slow epidemic has the same integral of morbidity and mortality as a fast epidemic. Slowing an epidemic lowers R0 and thus lowers incidence rate (i.e. the fraction of people who eventually get infected, or the integral of morbidity over a period of time). That may or may not be true. If it really takes a 70% rate of immune people, and the case fatality rate stays constant, the only difference between a fast and a slow pandemic is how many people medical assistance can save. So far that does not seem like a lot, but I expect (or at least hope) the medical profession will get better at treating this virus over time. At this point, the effects of the virus are not well understood. For example, venious blool of COVID cases is close to black. Why? On the other hand, a medical profession preoccupied with COVID-19 for two years may let a lot of people die who could otherwise be saved. It would take running a model, but under some circumstances (no vaccine, no treatments), it might be that doing nothing and letting the virus run a fast course would cost less in total casualties. Equador is providing an example. > There is no doubt that reducing transmission by lockdowns will reduce overall mortality from the Wuhan virus - however, that is not a sufficient argument to recommend lockdowns. Standard infection control measures, including use of PPE, hand washing, isolation of known cases, tracing of infectious contacts, If the facts had been understood and acted upon back in January, perhaps, but this ship has long since sailed. There isn't enough PPE for example. I am using and recycling a surgical mask I had from Alcor 25 years ago when I used toi put cryonics patients on cardiac bypass. > isolation of most vulnerable persons, and others, are very effective at controlling epidemics and their economic and social costs are literally orders of magnitude lower than lockdowns. Lockdowns are the stupidest solution to an exaggerated problem one can imagine, short of just killing everybody. ----------------------------------- > Does such a world view leave any room for public health? > ### I am all for public health but not when it's politicized by an insane, partisan media and by an insane elite who would see the country burn if it could help them bring down Trump. Trump isn't the problem, it's the people who elected him. Why do such people support him? It's rooted in our evelutionary past and not hard to explain. I have done it several time on this list. > Also, looks like our public health authorities have been badly damaged by political correctness and racist hiring practices. That's a new one on me. Got a URL for it? ( > > If you buy into the virus doom hype, by all means cower at home. Give up > on > most of your life in the hope of avoiding a 1:1000 to 1:100,000,000 chance > of dying, depending on your demographic. > > Given my age and other factors, it is more like 1:10 for me. ### This is not plausible. Are you 85 years old, obese, diabetic with COPD, severe CHF and dependent on oxygen at 2l/min? It's pubkc knowledge that I am almost 78. If you want me to talk about medical conditions, perhaps off list would be a good idea. However, yesterday I got an injection into one eye. Those who get tthis old usually have a long list of problems. snip > If you > use the expected, 70% infected before herd immunity kicks in, then > around 240 million folks in the US will be infected. Using 1% as the > case fatality rate, that means about 2.4 million will die ### These numbers are way off. IFR is probably about 0.2% and the incidence rate is unlikely to exceed 25%, based on comparisons to influenza, which has similar R0: You might be right on both these numbers. Using your numbers, about 82 million in the US will be infected and 165,000 will die. The US is at around a million cases and 6,000 deaths. That would put the US about 1/3rd though the pandemic by deaths. As the states open up, I expect another wave to hit, perhaps even worse than the first one since there are a vast number of infected cases out there to start infection chains. >From anitbody testing, we might be at around ~3% of the population has already had it (ten million). That would put the US about one part in 8 through the pandemic using your number of ~82 million to be infected. If that's in the ballpark, then the number of deaths in the US to the end of the pandemic will be around 6,000 times 8 or 48,000, which is 50 times less than my off the cuff worse case estimation of 2.4 million. It's still a lot of deaths, but given that it is mostly old people (like me) who are not very productive, it may not hurt the economy too much. Long URL failed to connect. > Remember, the initial estimates of incidence rate and mortality were based on incorrect assumptions and false information. Chicom interference with data sharing and their suppression of information gave an erroneous estimate of the doubling rate of the infection, the huge number of asymptomatic and unaccounted-for cases threw off IFR estimates and the garbage information was uncritically fed into standard models for predicting incidence rate. Don't we have better data from Italy, Spain and Germany now? Keith From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat May 2 02:31:29 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 22:31:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Boltzmann brains Message-ID: It occurred to me today that Wolfram's hypergraph theory offers a solution to the paradox of Boltzmann brains. Boltzmann brains show up when you contemplate sufficiently large numbers of fluctuating physical entities (atoms, molecules), where any physically possible arrangement of molecules eventually happens by some random aggregation of molecules. The theorists assume that the likelihood of a particular arrangement of smaller entities coming "randomly" into existence is a more or less simple function of the number of entities needed to form that arrangement. Since it takes a lot fewer atoms to make a brain than needed to make a galaxy, brains just randomly forming and miserably and almost immediately expiring somewhere in the universe should outnumber galaxies randomly forming in that universe by some hundreds of orders of magnitude. Therefore, you should expect your existence to end just about now, since you are more likely to be a Boltzmann brain than a brain in a body on a planet. Since none of the Boltzmann brains survive to tell us about their experiences, our life is not affected and the whole notion is not excluded by available physical evidence. The above assumes that the "random fluctuations" uniformly sample the configuration space of molecular assemblies, without providing any clear physical interpretation of how such a random process could work. It seems to assume an idea of true randomness that given a bunch of swirling physical thingies literally anything can happen if you wait long enough. You notice how I use very non-sciency sounding words to refer to this idea, which I find rather suspect. Wolfram's hypergraph theory is deterministic and finite.The laws of his universes are simple rules repeatedly applied to simple mathematical parent structures that generate completely predictable progeny structures, without any place for randomness. The structures so created are however computationally irreducible - the only way of finding out which structures will be created by the process is to run the process, there are no exact and general shortcuts. It follows that if our universe is created by one of these deterministic and finite processes, then there is a structure to the seemingly random movements of molecules we see. The law of our universe does not uniformly sample the configuration space of molecular assemblies. The law imposes a precise structure on all that happens, and most stuff we can vaguely imagine cannot happen. There is no physical shortcut that leads from a handful of atoms to a Boltzmann brain, you actually have to go through making quarks, then atoms, then galaxies, then planets... etc. The initial state of the graph and the rule applying to it, the moment zero of all time, is the ultimate conceivable high-energy and low-entropy physical state and at the same time a pure mathematical entity. It implies all the theorems true of that entity but not any other theorems. Of course, since we don't know our universe's rule we cannot begin to calculate if there are Boltzmann brains out there, and even if we knew the rule we would not be able to run the rule's calculation precisely enough to get an answer. So we still cannot exclude the possibility of Boltzmann brains - but we can say that if Wolfram is right, then they are not necessarily implied by the physics of our universe, and may very well be forbidden. If we find a good candidate for the rule of our universe, the final TOE, among Wolfram's hypergraphs, we might eventually be able to perform approximate first-principle calculations of vacuum energy, the cosmological constant, find a solution to the vacuum catastrophe and calculate the density of Boltzmann brains in space. My guess is Boltzmann brains are very few and far between, compared to us normal folks. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat May 2 12:45:58 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 08:45:58 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 9:24 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> Trump isn't the problem, it's the people who elected him. Why do > suchpeople support him? It's rooted in our evelutionary past and not > hardto explain. I have done it several time on this list.* That's not entirely fair, the American people never supported Donald Trump, not before the election during it or after it. The American people made it clear they wanted Hillary Clinton to be the next president, but under our system the wishes of the American people don't matter. Only the 538 members of the Electoral College are allowed to vote in the only presidential election that matters, and 304 of them decided that what this country really needed was a president who was an imbecile; and so like it or not that's exactly what the American people ended up with in addition to unconventional suggestions on where to place Clorox to cure viral disease. Meanwhile the German people picked somebody who has a doctorate in Quantum Chemistry, Angela Merkel, to be their leader, and because Germany is a more democratic country than the USA the people got what they wanted. And today only 80 people out of a million die of COVID-19 in Germany but in the USA 199 die. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat May 2 20:30:46 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 13:30:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry, math error fixed below. Keith On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 6:20 PM Keith Henson wrote: > > Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 8:11 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > If you assume no vaccine and no treatments then the integrated death > > total will be the same for a fast or a slow pandemic. A fast one > > would mean a total collapse of the medical establishment and people > > dying in the streets. > > ### The concern about overwhelming the medical system was based on > erroneous assumptions about IFR. > > I think this reports an overwhelmed medical system. What do you think? > > https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/04/20/838746457/covid-19-numbers-are-bad-in-ecuador-the-president-says-the-real-story-is-even-wo > > > Since the true IFR is at least an order of > magnitude lower than the initial estimates there is no need to flatten the > curve to protect ICUs from being overwhelmed. The fact that the initial IFR > was vastly overestimated became known a long time ago, even prior to the > lockdowns in the US, so lockdowns happened because actual science was > ignored in the storm of hype and propaganda. > > "New report says coronavirus pandemic could last for two years ? and > may not subside until 70% of the population has immunity" > > > However, it is not true that a slow epidemic has the same integral of > morbidity and mortality as a fast epidemic. Slowing an epidemic lowers R0 > and thus lowers incidence rate (i.e. the fraction of people who eventually > get infected, or the integral of morbidity over a period of time). > > That may or may not be true. If it really takes a 70% rate of immune > people, and the case fatality rate stays constant, the only difference > between a fast and a slow pandemic is how many people medical > assistance can save. So far that does not seem like a lot, but I > expect (or at least hope) the medical profession will get better at > treating this virus over time. At this point, the effects of the > virus are not well understood. For example, venious blool of COVID > cases is close to black. Why? > > On the other hand, a medical profession preoccupied with COVID-19 for > two years may let a lot of people die who could otherwise be saved. > It would take running a model, but under some circumstances (no > vaccine, no treatments), it might be that doing nothing and letting > the virus run a fast course would cost less in total casualties. > Equador is providing an example. > > > There is > no doubt that reducing transmission by lockdowns will reduce overall > mortality from the Wuhan virus - however, that is not a sufficient argument > to recommend lockdowns. Standard infection control measures, including use > of PPE, hand washing, isolation of known cases, tracing of infectious > contacts, > > If the facts had been understood and acted upon back in January, > perhaps, but this ship has long since sailed. There isn't enough PPE > for example. I am using and recycling a surgical mask I had from > Alcor 25 years ago when I used to put cryonics patients on cardiac > bypass. > > > isolation of most vulnerable persons, and others, are very > effective at controlling epidemics and their economic and social costs are > literally orders of magnitude lower than lockdowns. > > Lockdowns are the stupidest solution to an exaggerated problem one can > imagine, short of just killing everybody. > > ----------------------------------- > > Does such a world view leave any room for public health? > > > ### I am all for public health but not when it's politicized by an insane, > partisan media and by an insane elite who would see the country burn if it > could help them bring down Trump. > > Trump isn't the problem, it's the people who elected him. Why do such > people support him? It's rooted in our evolutionary past and not hard > to explain. I have done it several times on this list. > > > Also, looks like our public health authorities have been badly damaged by > political correctness and racist hiring practices. > > That's a new one on me. Got a URL for it? ( > > > > If you buy into the virus doom hype, by all means cower at home. Give up > > on > > most of your life in the hope of avoiding a 1:1000 to 1:100,000,000 chance > > of dying, depending on your demographic. > > > > Given my age and other factors, it is more like 1:10 for me. > > ### This is not plausible. Are you 85 years old, obese, diabetic with COPD, > severe CHF and dependent on oxygen at 2l/min? > > It's pubic knowledge that I am almost 78. If you want me to talk > about medical conditions, perhaps off list would be a good idea. > However, yesterday I got an injection into one eye. Those who get > this old usually have a long list of problems. > > snip > > > If you > > use the expected, 70% infected before herd immunity kicks in, then > > around 240 million folks in the US will be infected. Using 1% as the > > case fatality rate, that means about 2.4 million will die > > ### These numbers are way off. IFR is probably about 0.2% and the incidence > rate is unlikely to exceed 25%, based on comparisons to influenza, which > has similar R0: > > You might be right on both these numbers. Using your numbers, about > 82 million in the US will be infected and 165,000 will die. The US is > at around a million cases and 6,000 deaths. That would put the US 60,000 deaths. > about 1/3rd though the pandemic by deaths. As the states open up, I > expect another wave to hit, perhaps even worse than the first one > since there are a vast number of infected cases out there to start > infection chains. > > From anitibody testing, we might be at around ~3% of the population has > already had it (ten million). That would put the US about one part in > 8 through the pandemic using your number of ~82 million to be > infected. If that's in the ballpark, then the number of deaths in the > US to the end of the pandemic will be around 6,000 times 8 or 48,000, 60,000 x 8 or 480,000 > which is 50 times less than my off the cuff worse case estimation of 5 times less Rough as the numbers are, a factor of 5 puts us close. > 2.4 million. It's still a lot of deaths, but given that it is mostly > old people (like me) who are not very productive, it may not hurt the > economy too much. > > Long URL failed to connect. > > > Remember, the initial estimates of incidence rate and mortality were based > on incorrect assumptions and false information. Chicom interference with > data sharing and their suppression of information gave an erroneous > estimate of the doubling rate of the infection, the huge number of > asymptomatic and unaccounted-for cases threw off IFR estimates and the > garbage information was uncritically fed into standard models for > predicting incidence rate. > > Don't we have better data from Italy, Spain and Germany now? > > Keith From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat May 2 21:51:48 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 17:51:48 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think you can see this without going through the paywall: Try to reach Herd Immunity without a vaccine, and millions will die But this is a brand new virus so the truth is nobody knows for certain what would happen, it would be a very scary crapshoot with astronomically high stakes. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat May 2 22:41:56 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 17:41:56 -0500 Subject: [ExI] word of the day Message-ID: This word describe the Socratic process of asking leading questions and getting the other person to form his own answers without any help except from the questions. maieutic - literally referring to the birth process; Socrates playing the role of a midwife. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat May 2 23:40:02 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 16:40:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] why belgium? Message-ID: wrote: > If we want to interpret Covid-19 cases and mortality as a function of government action or inaction, this site is helpful: Spike, this is like trying to analyze the final order of the baseball teams at the start of the season. There are very likely going to be several more waves of this virus. It's is worth remembering that the second influenza wave in 1918 was worse than the first. Keith From spike at rainier66.com Sun May 3 00:03:34 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 17:03:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] why belgium? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008901d620de$4a33ddf0$de9b99d0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] why belgium? wrote: > If we want to interpret Covid-19 cases and mortality as a function of government action or inaction, this site is helpful: Spike, this is like trying to analyze the final order of the baseball teams at the start of the season. There are very likely going to be several more waves of this virus. It's is worth remembering that the second influenza wave in 1918 was worse than the first. Keith _______________________________________________ Keith that's only one of the problems. We are comparing data that is inherently difficult to compare and getting more so. Different countries are reporting their C-19 cases and deaths differently. The US, Belgium and a few other places are including unknown but likely C-19 cases. Some are counting as a C-19 death anyone who tests positive regardless of what else might have actually killed them. Then within a country, we have states reporting differently. We have hospitals with a clear motive to over-report, because it makes them eligible for state funding if the patient was C-19 positive. Clearly that is going to have a big impact on the numbers. I hafta think that is part of the reason why half the US Covid deaths are within an hour's drive of Times Square (assuming deserted roads.) We have governors who are individually motivated to over-report, to justify keeping their state closed, and others who are motivated to under-report to justify opening their states. We Californians are about to see some interesting fireworks: the case load is low enough to go ahead and open shops again. Some shops are opening anyway, declaring themselves essential services (their paychecks are essential (so the local cops aren't stopping them (and the state troopers are not showing up.))) This is a nice warm Saturday. I haven't heard but I am guessing the locals are having a showdown with law enforcement on the beaches down your way. Up here, they have the option of closing the access roads. Down your way they don't. spike From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun May 3 03:39:52 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 20:39:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? Message-ID: John Clark wrote: On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 9:24 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *> Trump isn't the problem, it's the people who elected him. Why do > such people support him? It's rooted in our evolutionary past and not > hard to explain. I have done it several times on this list.* > That's not entirely fair, the American people never supported Donald Trump, not before the election during it or after it. Agreed, he was a few million votes short of a majority. But under the system we seem to be stuck with, a majority is not required, just, as you say, a majority of the Electoral College. The same thing happened with the Busin/Gore election. > The American people made it clear they wanted Hillary Clinton to be the next president, but under our system the wishes of the American people don't matter. Only the 538 members of the Electoral College are allowed to vote in the only presidential election that matters, and 304 of them decided that what this country really needed was a president who was an imbecile; and so like it or not that's exactly what the American people ended up with in addition to unconventional suggestions on where to place Clorox to cure viral disease. Again, you hit the nail on the head. The question though is why enough people voted for him in the "red" states for him to get a majority in the Electoral College? What is special about those states? > Meanwhile, the German people picked somebody who has a doctorate in Quantum Chemistry, Angela Merkel, to be their leader, and because Germany is a more democratic country than the USA the people got what they wanted. May I remind you that the German people have not always been so sensible? Or perhaps a better word would be lucky. Close to 100 years ago the German government was taken over by a madman. That madman got considerably less than a majority vote and still took over. Think about it, what is in common between the red states in 2016 and Germany in 1920? For that matter, how does present-day Germany differ from 1920 Germany? If you want to go deeper, think about the selection that went on back in the stone age. We are stuck with the Electoral College. We are even more stuck with human psychological traits selected in the stone age. We could, in theory, get rid of the Electoral College. It would be much harder to modify human psychological traits, but there does seem to be ways to keep the worse aspects turned off. Keith From rocket at earthlight.com Sun May 3 11:23:44 2020 From: rocket at earthlight.com (Re Rose) Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 07:23:44 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Boltzmann brains Message-ID: Hi Rafal, This is fascinating, I had to go look up "Boltzman brains". Wikipedia has everything. The idea reminds me of the "zillions-of-monkeys-typing-will-write everything-ever-written-or-that-will-be-written" thought experiment. I think the hypothesis that a biological brain complete with all memories is more likely to form spontaneously than a galaxy is fun to contemplate -- but isn't quite right. We know that generally, conditions in most locations of the galaxy are not conducive to stable biological existance. Also, a brain is a subsystem of a biogical system, the bit that houses our idenity, but still just a piece of a whole system, and dependant on the rest.* The molecules composing a brain are biological in nature and are formed under specific conditions, so the formation of these molecules in a given random location is entropically unlikely. Then, even with the molecules available, I think the spontaneous emergence of even a single neuron is still unlikey as its structure is so highy organized. Like the monkeys typing, if you have all the letters to make a word, and then form groups of the words follwoing some syntax, - all formed randomy and spontaneously - you could have brillions (with a "br"! Thats a lot of them...) of versions with syntax and words and even grammer but **still having no meaning**! I have never seen evidence of the spontaneous formation in the galaxy of even biological-like molecules (like an ATPase or something), much less functional ones. Even after you possibly get a neuron popping up someplace, it would need to be near trillions of others, or just milllions, if you are talking about the spontaneous formation of a Boltzman honeybee brain, for example. They must form an isolated organ with functional regions, like mushroom bodies and optic lobes and stuff. And now you have to start thinking about the inter-neuronal wiring and interconnections. Each neuron in a working brain has about 100-10,000 connections, they ALL have to be right to have a system that is holding information (ie, memories). All together, this is overall such a hugely low probalistic occurance that is fun to think about but seems rather unlikely, at least to me. IMHO, I think this is why biology is so different from physics - it is biological processes that drive the organization of molecules into such ordered structures, and these processes follow the harsh and nasty laws of evolution, increasing the overall infomation held in such colllections of interdependant molecules, far beyond what could be held or acted upon via simple physically probable interactions that randomly occur in the universe. Physics is blind except to elementary forces, and the statistics of large numbers, while biology drives the accretion of information by communicating with and learning from its envirionment. Regina * IMHO, I think whole-body cryopreservation is far better than neuropreservation as I believe the body is a system and you need all of it. Thus, I have issues with uploading. Different topic! Anyhow, a Boltzman brain complete with memories but no body seems very anamolous to me, and unlikely to have even transient consciouness. YMMV. -R -------------------------------------------- Message: 12 Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 22:31:29 -0400 From: Rafal Smigrodzki To: ExI chat list Subject: [ExI] Boltzmann brains Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" It occurred to me today that Wolfram's hypergraph theory offers a solution to the paradox of Boltzmann brains. Boltzmann brains show up when you contemplate sufficiently large numbers of fluctuating physical entities (atoms, molecules), where any physically possible arrangement of molecules eventually happens by some random aggregation of molecules. The theorists assume that the likelihood of a particular arrangement of smaller entities coming "randomly" into existence is a more or less simple function of the number of entities needed to form that arrangement. Since it takes a lot fewer atoms to make a brain than needed to make a galaxy, brains just randomly forming and miserably and almost immediately expiring somewhere in the universe should outnumber galaxies randomly forming in that universe by some hundreds of orders of magnitude. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rocket at earthlight.com Sun May 3 11:23:54 2020 From: rocket at earthlight.com (Re Rose) Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 07:23:54 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Subject: Boltzmann brains Message-ID: To clarify my comment below, I didn't mean the proto-biolgical building blocks that have been observed, such as R,S-glycine, R,S-alanine, adenine, ribose, and their friends; or the simple protenoids and polypeptides - those building blocks of biology can and do spontaneouly form. I meant higher-order biologial molecles like, I dunno, hydrolases, or NADPH synthases, biologcally active structures like that. -R ------------ I have never seen evidence of the spontaneous formation in the galaxy of even biological-like molecules (like an ATPase or something), much less functional ones. ------------ -------------------------------------------- Message: 12 Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 22:31:29 -0400 From: Rafal Smigrodzki To: ExI chat list Subject: [ExI] Boltzmann brains Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" It occurred to me today that Wolfram's hypergraph theory offers a solution to the paradox of Boltzmann brains. Boltzmann brains show up when you contemplate sufficiently large numbers of fluctuating physical entities (atoms, molecules), where any physically possible arrangement of molecules eventually happens by some random aggregation of molecules. The theorists assume that the likelihood of a particular arrangement of smaller entities coming "randomly" into existence is a more or less simple function of the number of entities needed to form that arrangement. Since it takes a lot fewer atoms to make a brain than needed to make a galaxy, brains just randomly forming and miserably and almost immediately expiring somewhere in the universe should outnumber galaxies randomly forming in that universe by some hundreds of orders of magnitude. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun May 3 12:10:42 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 08:10:42 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 11:43 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> That's not entirely fair, the American people never supported Donald >> Trump, not before the election during it or after it. > > *> Agreed, he was a few million votes short of a majority. * Not only did Trump fail to get a majority of the votes he didn't even get a plurality of the votes. *> The same thing happened with the Busin/Gore election.* And so in addition to Trump we can also thank the electoral college for the Iraq War. How do all those other poor benighted democratic countries in the world manage to get along without something like our wonderful electoral college? > >> The American people made it clear they wanted Hillary Clinton to be >> the next president, but under our system the wishes of the American >> people don't matter. Only the 538 members of the Electoral College are >> allowed to vote in the only presidential election that matters, and 304 >> of them decided that what this country really needed was a president who >> was an imbecile; and so like it or not that's exactly what the American >> people ended up with in addition to unconventional suggestions on where >> to place Clorox to cure viral disease. > > > * > Again, you hit the nail on the head. The question though is why > enough people voted for him in the "red" states for him to get a majority > in the Electoral College? What is special about those states?* > I can see a few patterns, with the exception of Virginia all the former Confederate slave states went for Trump, and the more rural a state is and the smaller its population the more likely the few people in it would vote for Trump, and the voters in those states are far more important than the voters in larger states. But other than that I can't think of any stone age traits that could be extrapolated to explain why one state was blue and another was red. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun May 3 13:12:12 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 09:12:12 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Boltzmann brains In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 7:27 AM Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *> The molecules composing a brain are biological in nature and are formed > under specific conditions, so the formation of these molecules in a given > random location is entropically unlikely. * > It makes no difference how astronomically unlikely something is, as long as the probability is not exactly precisely zero if you have infinity and eternity to work with then not only will it happen it will happen an infinite number of times. *> * IMHO, I think whole-body cryopreservation is far better than > neuropreservation as I believe the body is a system and you need all of it.* > So anybody who has received a titanium knee replacement is dead because they no longer have their original kneecap? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun May 3 14:27:51 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 07:27:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Subject: Boltzmann brains In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This seems to be an unfalsifiable hypothesis. The theory is that everything you remember, all data and history and evidence, is a lie forged by the random coincidence that caused your brain to exist in this moment. This is a form of the old, "am I really experiencing what I seem to be experiencing, or is it an illusion of some sort" chain of thought. While it is true that the only thing you can prove is that you exist - because you are thinking about the problem, which means there has to be some thing that is doing that thinking, and the thing that is thinking your thoughts and having your experiences is you by definition - Occam's Razor suggests that it is far more likely that the universe as we experience it is in fact what's going on. This further suggests that mathematical convolutions that suggest something else have an error in their logic or their data. In this case, "brains just randomly forming and miserably and almost immediately expiring somewhere in the universe should outnumber galaxies randomly forming in that universe" seems to be the error. Specifically, ignoring the different time scales needed for construction (and its effects on the likelihood of random assembly) between extremely short-lived entities that would need near-instant formation - brains forming and almost immediately expiring - versus extremely long lived entities that can take much longer to assemble - galaxies. On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 4:34 AM Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > To clarify my comment below, I didn't mean the proto-biolgical building > blocks that have been observed, such as R,S-glycine, R,S-alanine, adenine, > ribose, and their friends; or the simple protenoids and polypeptides - > those building blocks of biology can and do spontaneouly form. I meant > higher-order biologial molecles like, I dunno, hydrolases, or NADPH > synthases, biologcally active structures like that. > > -R > > ------------ > I have never seen evidence of the spontaneous formation in the galaxy of > even biological-like molecules (like an ATPase or something), much less > functional ones. > > ------------ > > -------------------------------------------- > Message: 12 > Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 22:31:29 -0400 > From: Rafal Smigrodzki > To: ExI chat list > Subject: [ExI] Boltzmann brains > Message-ID: > HgjjLyA at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > It occurred to me today that Wolfram's hypergraph theory offers a solution > to the paradox of Boltzmann brains. > > Boltzmann brains show up when you contemplate sufficiently large numbers > of fluctuating physical entities (atoms, molecules), where any physically possible > arrangement of molecules eventually happens by some random aggregation of > molecules. > > The theorists assume that the likelihood of a particular arrangement of > smaller entities coming "randomly" into existence is a more or less > simple function of the number of entities needed to form that > arrangement. > > Since it takes a lot fewer atoms to make a brain than needed to make a > galaxy, brains just randomly forming and miserably and almost immediately > expiring somewhere in the universe should outnumber galaxies randomly > forming in that universe by some hundreds of orders of magnitude. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun May 3 14:30:43 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 07:30:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Boltzmann brains In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 6:15 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > It makes no difference how astronomically unlikely something is, as long > as the probability is not exactly precisely zero if you have infinity and > eternity to work with then not only will it happen it will happen an > infinite number of times. > But we have not had infinity to work with. By all current measurements, the universe has had a finite life so far. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun May 3 15:28:49 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 11:28:49 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Boltzmann brains In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 10:39 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> It makes no difference how astronomically unlikely something is, as long >> as the probability is not exactly precisely zero if you have infinity and >> eternity to work with then not only will it happen it will happen an >> infinite number of times. >> > > *> But we have not had infinity to work with. * > We have infinity to work with if Hugh Everett's Many Worlds interpretation of Quantum Mechanics is correct, or if Eternal Inflation is right, and if the inflationary model of the Big Bang is right then Eternal Inflation probably is too. And even if none of that is true and the universe is finite in the past dimension it could still have a infinite eternal future. *> By all current measurements, the universe has had a finite life so far.* Physicists have never detected an infinite number of anything, but then I don't see how they could. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sun May 3 18:41:33 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 04:41:33 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Boltzmann brains In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 4 May 2020 at 01:31, John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 10:39 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >> It makes no difference how astronomically unlikely something is, as >>> long as the probability is not exactly precisely zero if you have infinity >>> and eternity to work with then not only will it happen it will happen an >>> infinite number of times. >>> >> >> *> But we have not had infinity to work with. * >> > > We have infinity to work with if Hugh Everett's Many Worlds interpretation > of Quantum Mechanics is correct, or if Eternal Inflation is right, and if > the inflationary model of the Big Bang is right then Eternal Inflation > probably is too. And even if none of that is true and the universe is > finite in the past dimension it could still have a infinite eternal future. > Or it could be infinite in extent. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun May 3 21:08:07 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 14:08:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? Message-ID: John Clark wrote: snip > But other than that I can't think of any stone age traits that could be extrapolated to explain why one state was blue and another was red. Economics. Every one of the states that went red had a population that was facing a bleak economic future, unlike the blue states. Not bleak in absolute terms, but humans respond to relative stimulations. For a long list of reasons, the average life prospects in those populations were not as good as they had been for their parents. People in the stone age facing a resource crisis (or a looming one) would fight with neighbors. At the individual level, going to war was irrational, but at the gene level, it was not. So if conditions called for war, the tribe members have the psychological traits to find an irrational leader attractive. You do need to be careful in extrapolating evolved stone age psychological traits to the present day, though one example. http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Capture-bonding is obvious. I would also say that it is clear from history that people under stress from falling income per capita switch on the same mechanisms that stone age peoples did for a resource crisis. These include spreading xenophobic memes and supporting irrational leaders. Assuming the above analysis is correct, does anything jump out at you as to how to prevent what happened in the red states? Keith From ben at zaiboc.net Sun May 3 21:20:08 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 22:20:08 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5a74bf24-ab7d-a3ac-badf-f1fa37b86fd7@zaiboc.net> On 03/05/2020 19:42, Re Rose wrote: > IMHO, I think whole-body cryopreservation is far better than > neuropreservation as I believe the body is a system and you need all > of it. Thus, I have issues with uploading The one doesn't follow from the other, even if it is true (which I don't think, but that's a separate argument). People tend to think of uploading as just meaning an emulation of a brain. In practice, an upload will need an emulation of a body too, so it would be better to think of it as emulating the entire organism (and, of course, an external environment, too). Because emulating an external environment is trivial (we can do that already), it doesn't tend to get mentioned much. Because a body is much simpler than a brain, that too can be easily emulated - more easily than a brain, anyway - so that doesn't tend to get mentioned much, either. We focus on brains because that's where the essential action is. No brain, no person. But don't forget that's not the only thing we'll want to emulate in an upload. So, accepting that we'll want to emulate a body as well as a brain, do we actually need a real body to record and upload? I doubt it. It follows from the fact that a body is simpler, that we will be able to easily create a virtual body from existing data about human bodies, so no need to preserve an actual body unless you don't want to be uploaded at all, but have your biological self reanimated at some point, and even then... Yet another separate argument :) . I can only think of one possible case where you'd want to upload (and thus preserve in the first place) an individual body, and that's the (extremely unlikely, imo) case where your unique body is essential to reproducing your unique mind. We undergo all sorts of changes to our bodies, all the time, and it doesn't seem to have much effect on who we are. I can testify to that, having had various bits of my body changed and even removed, over my lifetime. On the other hand, change or damage or remove even a tiny bit of your brain, and you have a different person, or at least a different personality. Ergo, the brain is vastly more important than the body to get exactly right (and thus, to preserve). I'm pretty confident that a generic body model would be quite sufficient for the purposes of an upload, especially as you could modify it yourself afterward, to your own requirements (just in case you decided that your appendectomy scar or missing toe was somehow essential to your personality). And even so, it would be easy enough to record any differences to 'the standard human body (female)' that you in particular might have, keep the data with your neuro corpsicle, and feed them into the upload data, instead of going to the extra expense and trouble of vitrifying (or chemopreserving) an entire body. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Sun May 3 21:25:51 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 15:25:51 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Clearly, yelling at them online, degrading them, and demanding they get onboard with the 21st century social progress movement like their coastal betters will win their hearts and minds! Also, they should obviously learn to code, On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 3:10 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > John Clark wrote: > > snip > > > But other than that I can't think of any stone age > traits that could be extrapolated to explain why one state was blue and > another was red. > > Economics. Every one of the states that went red had a population > that was facing a bleak economic future, unlike the blue states. Not > bleak in absolute terms, but humans respond to relative stimulations. > For a long list of reasons, the average life prospects in those > populations were not as good as they had been for their parents. > > People in the stone age facing a resource crisis (or a looming one) > would fight with neighbors. At the individual level, going to war was > irrational, but at the gene level, it was not. So if conditions > called for war, the tribe members have the psychological traits to > find an irrational leader attractive. > > You do need to be careful in extrapolating evolved stone age > psychological traits to the present day, though one example. > http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Capture-bonding is obvious. > > I would also say that it is clear from history that people under > stress from falling income per capita switch on the same mechanisms > that stone age peoples did for a resource crisis. These include > spreading xenophobic memes and supporting irrational leaders. > > Assuming the above analysis is correct, does anything jump out at you > as to how to prevent what happened in the red states? > > Keith > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Sun May 3 21:35:00 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 17:35:00 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: +1. Someone gets it. On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 5:27 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Clearly, yelling at them online, degrading them, and demanding they get > onboard with the 21st century social progress movement like their coastal > betters will win their hearts and minds! > > Also, they should obviously learn to code, > > On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 3:10 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> John Clark wrote: >> >> snip >> >> > But other than that I can't think of any stone age >> traits that could be extrapolated to explain why one state was blue and >> another was red. >> >> Economics. Every one of the states that went red had a population >> that was facing a bleak economic future, unlike the blue states. Not >> bleak in absolute terms, but humans respond to relative stimulations. >> For a long list of reasons, the average life prospects in those >> populations were not as good as they had been for their parents. >> >> People in the stone age facing a resource crisis (or a looming one) >> would fight with neighbors. At the individual level, going to war was >> irrational, but at the gene level, it was not. So if conditions >> called for war, the tribe members have the psychological traits to >> find an irrational leader attractive. >> >> You do need to be careful in extrapolating evolved stone age >> psychological traits to the present day, though one example. >> http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Capture-bonding is obvious. >> >> I would also say that it is clear from history that people under >> stress from falling income per capita switch on the same mechanisms >> that stone age peoples did for a resource crisis. These include >> spreading xenophobic memes and supporting irrational leaders. >> >> Assuming the above analysis is correct, does anything jump out at you >> as to how to prevent what happened in the red states? >> >> Keith >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun May 3 21:43:34 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 14:43:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005301d62193$e5d9be90$b18d3bb0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Darin Sunley via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? >?Clearly, yelling at them online, degrading them, and demanding they get onboard with the 21st century social progress movement like their coastal betters will win their hearts and minds! The persistent shrieking of bitter contumely as a campaign strategy has been demonstrated repeatedly on this forum (plenty of us have come to suspect it is all an elaborate false-flag attack (designed to promote the fortunes of the current POTUS (whose name escapes me at the moment.))) spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun May 3 21:53:45 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 16:53:45 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) In-Reply-To: <5a74bf24-ab7d-a3ac-badf-f1fa37b86fd7@zaiboc.net> References: <5a74bf24-ab7d-a3ac-badf-f1fa37b86fd7@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: I know nothing about this, so I am free to put in my two cents worth: Is the idea just to shut down the hypothalamus? It reads the blood for hormones, among other things. Do you imagine that sims of the various endocrine glands will be done? Not everything about the brain is neuronal, of course. What you think and what you think about is partly dependent on the hormones. bill w On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 4:22 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 03/05/2020 19:42, Re Rose wrote: > > IMHO, I think whole-body cryopreservation is far better than > neuropreservation as I believe the body is a system and you need all of it. > Thus, I have issues with uploading > > > The one doesn't follow from the other, even if it is true (which I don't > think, but that's a separate argument). > > People tend to think of uploading as just meaning an emulation of a brain. > In practice, an upload will need an emulation of a body too, so it would be > better to think of it as emulating the entire organism (and, of course, an > external environment, too). > > Because emulating an external environment is trivial (we can do that > already), it doesn't tend to get mentioned much. Because a body is much > simpler than a brain, that too can be easily emulated - more easily than a > brain, anyway - so that doesn't tend to get mentioned much, either. We > focus on brains because that's where the essential action is. No brain, no > person. But don't forget that's not the only thing we'll want to emulate in > an upload. > > So, accepting that we'll want to emulate a body as well as a brain, do we > actually need a real body to record and upload? I doubt it. It follows from > the fact that a body is simpler, that we will be able to easily create a > virtual body from existing data about human bodies, so no need to preserve > an actual body unless you don't want to be uploaded at all, but have your > biological self reanimated at some point, and even then... Yet another > separate argument :) . > > I can only think of one possible case where you'd want to upload (and thus > preserve in the first place) an individual body, and that's the (extremely > unlikely, imo) case where your unique body is essential to reproducing your > unique mind. > > We undergo all sorts of changes to our bodies, all the time, and it > doesn't seem to have much effect on who we are. I can testify to that, > having had various bits of my body changed and even removed, over my > lifetime. On the other hand, change or damage or remove even a tiny bit of > your brain, and you have a different person, or at least a different > personality. Ergo, the brain is vastly more important than the body to get > exactly right (and thus, to preserve). > > I'm pretty confident that a generic body model would be quite sufficient > for the purposes of an upload, especially as you could modify it yourself > afterward, to your own requirements (just in case you decided that your > appendectomy scar or missing toe was somehow essential to your > personality). And even so, it would be easy enough to record any > differences to 'the standard human body (female)' that you in particular > might have, keep the data with your neuro corpsicle, and feed them into the > upload data, instead of going to the extra expense and trouble of > vitrifying (or chemopreserving) an entire body. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun May 3 22:55:16 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 15:55:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) In-Reply-To: <5a74bf24-ab7d-a3ac-badf-f1fa37b86fd7@zaiboc.net> References: <5a74bf24-ab7d-a3ac-badf-f1fa37b86fd7@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 2:21 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I can only think of one possible case where you'd want to upload (and thus > preserve in the first place) an individual body, and that's the (extremely > unlikely, imo) case where your unique body is essential to reproducing your > unique mind. > > We undergo all sorts of changes to our bodies, all the time, and it > doesn't seem to have much effect on who we are. I can testify to that, > having had various bits of my body changed and even removed, over my > lifetime. On the other hand, change or damage or remove even a tiny bit of > your brain, and you have a different person, or at least a different > personality. Ergo, the brain is vastly more important than the body to get > exactly right (and thus, to preserve). > I believe the counterargument is the endocrine system's measurable effects on personality, dominant moods, and several other psychological parts that are commonly regarded as the self - as the thing that warrants uploading. I make no comment in this email as to whether that is likely true or not. I'm just the messenger this time. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon May 4 05:02:38 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 22:02:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <28D8E382-7592-455A-8C3D-3CBAD6649EC9@gmail.com> On May 2, 2020, at 5:55 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > >> On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 9:24 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> > Trump isn't the problem, it's the people who elected him. Why do such >> people support him? It's rooted in our evelutionary past and not hard >> to explain. I have done it several time on this list. > > That's not entirely fair, the American people never supported Donald Trump, not before the election during it or after it. The American people made it clear they wanted Hillary Clinton to be the next president, but under our system the wishes of the American people don't matter. Only the 538 members of the Electoral College are allowed to vote in the only presidential election that matters, and 304 of them decided that what this country really needed was a president who was an imbecile; and so like it or not that's exactly what the American people ended up with in addition to unconventional suggestions on where to place Clorox to cure viral disease. > > Meanwhile the German people picked somebody who has a doctorate in Quantum Chemistry, Angela Merkel, to be their leader, and because Germany is a more democratic country than the USA the people got what they wanted. And today only 80 people out of a million die of COVID-19 in Germany but in the USA 199 die. You must know more about the current German political system then me because I was under the impression that like in many parliamentary systems the prime minister (or, in this case, chancellor) is not chosen by direct election of the ?people,? but us instead is chosen by members of the parliament (or, in this case, Bundestag). And I believe this is how Merkel was chosen. If the US adopted something like that, it would be more like the Congress choosing the president. (And maybe the president only serving as long as they had majority backing in the Congress.) Also, another wrinkle on how the US president is chosen. They must first go through their party choosing them. And that often involves popular elections in primaries (usually limited to party members). I bring this up because Trump didn?t just go straight to the Electoral College. He was vetted via a nomination process that did involve a popular vote (amongst his party members in most places) at some points. Though later on what happens is delegates vote in a convention. I?m no saying this because I agree with either having Trump in office, with the specific presidential election process, or with having a president. (Clinton, by the way, went through a similar but slightly different process mainly because of superdelegates.) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon May 4 05:10:30 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 00:10:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: <28D8E382-7592-455A-8C3D-3CBAD6649EC9@gmail.com> References: <28D8E382-7592-455A-8C3D-3CBAD6649EC9@gmail.com> Message-ID: In the US, the party conventions actually choose the nominee, per my understanding. https://www.usa.gov/election#item-212585 SR Ballard > On May 4, 2020, at 12:02 AM, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: > >> On May 2, 2020, at 5:55 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: >>> On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 9:24 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> > Trump isn't the problem, it's the people who elected him. Why do such >>> people support him? It's rooted in our evelutionary past and not hard >>> to explain. I have done it several time on this list. >> >> That's not entirely fair, the American people never supported Donald Trump, not before the election during it or after it. The American people made it clear they wanted Hillary Clinton to be the next president, but under our system the wishes of the American people don't matter. Only the 538 members of the Electoral College are allowed to vote in the only presidential election that matters, and 304 of them decided that what this country really needed was a president who was an imbecile; and so like it or not that's exactly what the American people ended up with in addition to unconventional suggestions on where to place Clorox to cure viral disease. >> >> Meanwhile the German people picked somebody who has a doctorate in Quantum Chemistry, Angela Merkel, to be their leader, and because Germany is a more democratic country than the USA the people got what they wanted. And today only 80 people out of a million die of COVID-19 in Germany but in the USA 199 die. > > You must know more about the current German political system then me because I was under the impression that like in many parliamentary systems the prime minister (or, in this case, chancellor) is not chosen by direct election of the ?people,? but us instead is chosen by members of the parliament (or, in this case, Bundestag). And I believe this is how Merkel was chosen. > > If the US adopted something like that, it would be more like the Congress choosing the president. (And maybe the president only serving as long as they had majority backing in the Congress.) > > Also, another wrinkle on how the US president is chosen. They must first go through their party choosing them. And that often involves popular elections in primaries (usually limited to party members). I bring this up because Trump didn?t just go straight to the Electoral College. He was vetted via a nomination process that did involve a popular vote (amongst his party members in most places) at some points. Though later on what happens is delegates vote in a convention. > > I?m no saying this because I agree with either having Trump in office, with the specific presidential election process, or with having a president. (Clinton, by the way, went through a similar but slightly different process mainly because of superdelegates.) > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books at: > http://author.to/DanUst > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon May 4 07:55:24 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 00:55:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8C13AF16-02F6-4D0C-8BF2-85C7DCF4A9B2@gmail.com> Yes, though those delegates are mostly chosen by voting in primaries, no? And I believe the nominating conventions don?t typically go against the primary results, though I haven?t checked into this in any detail. I don?t believe 2016 was a counterexample, at least for the GOP. (The superdelegate thing with the Democratic Party, too, might have diluted some effect of primary voters, but I believe Clinton got the most of regular delegates meaning she won more of them than Sanders. Have to revisit that too.) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst > On May 3, 2020, at 10:13 PM, SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: > > ?In the US, the party conventions actually choose the nominee, per my understanding. > > https://www.usa.gov/election#item-212585 > > SR Ballard -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon May 4 08:20:47 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 01:20:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 2:10 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Economics. Every one of the states that went red had a population > that was facing a bleak economic future, unlike the blue states. Not > bleak in absolute terms, but humans respond to relative stimulations. > For a long list of reasons, the average life prospects in those > populations were not as good as they had been for their parents. > > People in the stone age facing a resource crisis (or a looming one) > would fight with neighbors. At the individual level, going to war was > irrational, but at the gene level, it was not. So if conditions > called for war, the tribe members have the psychological traits to > find an irrational leader attractive. > > You do need to be careful in extrapolating evolved stone age > psychological traits to the present day, though one example. > http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Capture-bonding is obvious. > > I would also say that it is clear from history that people under > stress from falling income per capita switch on the same mechanisms > that stone age peoples did for a resource crisis. These include > spreading xenophobic memes and supporting irrational leaders. > > Assuming the above analysis is correct, does anything jump out at you > as to how to prevent what happened in the red states? > It's that "relative" that's a problem. People make more wealth, and then get used to what they have. When, inevitably, some lose out and degrade from the level they are accustomed to, this happens. To satisfy the new normal takes more resources - especially as the population rises. Fortunately, new technology can create more wealth, but a challenge is distributing this new wealth equitably. Many efforts to provide a safety net and transition for the less fortunate are derided as socialism or wealth redistribution, in the sense of robbing from the rich for no useful purpose and/or for corrupt ends. The suggestion to learn to code was given apparently facetiously, but it is a good one in many cases - and there have been several organized attempts to teach out-of-work coal miners or similar to code (granted, some of these have amounted to fraud, but there are ways to reduce this, such as basing the pay to these efforts on the improved income of their students). I would go beyond merely teaching "coding" and try to teach software engineering: writing specifications, debugging, planning software development (in particular, learning to work in a team and figuring out how to divide up a software project, including designing, documenting, and agreeing to interfaces between different parts), and so on. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Mon May 4 08:33:03 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 18:33:03 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: <28D8E382-7592-455A-8C3D-3CBAD6649EC9@gmail.com> References: <28D8E382-7592-455A-8C3D-3CBAD6649EC9@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 May 2020 at 15:04, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On May 2, 2020, at 5:55 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 9:24 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >> >> *> Trump isn't the problem, it's the people who elected him. Why do >> suchpeople support him? It's rooted in our evelutionary past and not >> hardto explain. I have done it several time on this list.* > > > That's not entirely fair, the American people never supported Donald > Trump, not before the election during it or after it. The American people > made it clear they wanted Hillary Clinton to be the next president, but > under our system the wishes of the American people don't matter. Only the > 538 members of the Electoral College are allowed to vote in the only > presidential election that matters, and 304 of them decided that what this > country really needed was a president who was an imbecile; and so like it > or not that's exactly what the American people ended up with in addition to > unconventional suggestions on where to place Clorox to cure viral disease. > > Meanwhile the German people picked somebody who has a doctorate in Quantum > Chemistry, Angela Merkel, to be their leader, and because Germany is a > more democratic country than the USA the people got what they wanted. And > today only 80 people out of a million die of COVID-19 in Germany but in the > USA 199 die. > > > You must know more about the current German political system then me > because I was under the impression that like in many parliamentary systems > the prime minister (or, in this case, chancellor) is not chosen by direct > election of the ?people,? but us instead is chosen by members of the > parliament (or, in this case, Bundestag). And I believe this is how Merkel > was chosen. > In such systems, the people still effectively elect the leader, because the leader has already been chosen by the parliamentarians whom they elect. The parliament can change the leader by vote at any time. If the US adopted something like that, it would be more like the Congress > choosing the president. (And maybe the president only serving as long as > they had majority backing in the Congress.) > > Also, another wrinkle on how the US president is chosen. They must first > go through their party choosing them. And that often involves popular > elections in primaries (usually limited to party members). I bring this up > because Trump didn?t just go straight to the Electoral College. He was > vetted via a nomination process that did involve a popular vote (amongst > his party members in most places) at some points. Though later on what > happens is delegates vote in a convention. > > I?m no saying this because I agree with either having Trump in office, > with the specific presidential election process, or with having a > president. (Clinton, by the way, went through a similar but slightly > different process mainly because of superdelegates.) > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books at: > > http://author.to/DanUst > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Mon May 4 08:36:01 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 10:36:01 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Blessed by toasters and washing machines? Not quite yet Message-ID: Blessed by toasters and washing machines? Not quite yet Researcher Beth Singler has reviewed my book in an essay titled ??Blessed by the algorithm,? published in AI & Society... https://turingchurch.net/blessed-by-toasters-and-washing-machines-not-quite-yet-31b7dbe96264 From ben at zaiboc.net Mon May 4 11:12:48 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 12:12:48 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3cbe9a38-61ee-3006-7789-add588b2eb57@zaiboc.net> On 04/05/2020 09:33, bill w wrote: > Is the idea just to shut down the hypothalamus? No, of course not. The hypothalamus and pituitary would be essential things to emulate, along with all the hormones they produce and their regulatory functions on the brain. I suspect their functions could be greatly simplified and still work just as well (mainly because the emulated body would be greatly simplified compared to a biological body), but that would probably come later. Initial uploads should include as much as possible about the brain/body interface, as well as the internal workings of the brain. -- Ben Zaiboc From ben at zaiboc.net Mon May 4 11:28:43 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 12:28:43 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 04/05/2020 09:33, Adrian Tymes wrote: > I believe the counterargument is the endocrine system's measurable > effects on personality, dominant moods, and several other > psychological parts that are commonly regarded as the self - as the > thing that warrants uploading. No argument here, and I suppose I should modify my original statement about changes to the body not having much of an effect on our identity. Changes to the endocrine system would be significant, and should be included in the somatic data that goes along with the brain data. Still no need to preserve the entire body just for this, though. A dissection and the measuring and recording of a few kilobytes worth of endocrine data would be enough (again we'd be storing variations from a standard model, or maybe up to, say, a dozen standard models, to account for different genders, age ranges, etc. Actually the 'standard models' would themselves be just variations on one 'standard human' model. We are all built to the same general plan). And as I said before, many of these things will probably just be the initial stages. Later refinements would incorporate them into a more compact, more efficient and more controllable form. I keep thinking back to Greg Egan's concept of an 'Exoself' that is a kind of nonsentient (no, that's the wrong word. Nonsapient is better) computational shell around the kernel of the mind, performing the type of functions that our brainstems do (and hypothalamus, pituitary, other endocrine components, as well as other things that biological creatures don't have, or outsource to their technology). -- Ben Zaiboc From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon May 4 11:37:24 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 07:37:24 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: <005301d62193$e5d9be90$b18d3bb0$@rainier66.com> References: <005301d62193$e5d9be90$b18d3bb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 5:45 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *> The persistent shrieking of bitter contumely as a campaign strategy has > been demonstrated repeatedly on this forum (plenty of us have come to > suspect it is all an elaborate false-flag attack (designed to promote the > fortunes of the current POTUS* > It's odd. When Obama was POTUS I never saw anyone on this forum torture themselves with such painful logical contortions to deny the possibility that criticism of him may have some validity; people routinely raked Obama over the coals and nobody complained or even batted an eye. What makes it doubly odd is that whatever his faults may have been Obama was not an imbecile, a dramatic contrast to the creature in power today, and unlike the current resident of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue the idea Obama would refuse to leave the building if he lost an election never entered my head, but with Trump that scenario seems more plausible with every passing day. And so does the possibility that we won't even have an election on November 3, and please don't tell me both those things would be unconstitutional, I already know that. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Mon May 4 11:43:52 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 12:43:52 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Resources and politics (was: Re: Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 04/05/2020 09:33, Keith Henson wrote: > > John Clark wrote: > > snip > >> But other than that I can't think of any stone age > traits that could be extrapolated to explain why one state was blue and > another was red. > > Economics. Every one of the states that went red had a population > that was facing a bleak economic future, unlike the blue states. Not > bleak in absolute terms, but humans respond to relative stimulations. > For a long list of reasons, the average life prospects in those > populations were not as good as they had been for their parents. > > People in the stone age facing a resource crisis (or a looming one) > would fight with neighbors. At the individual level, going to war was > irrational, but at the gene level, it was not. So if conditions > called for war, the tribe members have the psychological traits to > find an irrational leader attractive. > > You do need to be careful in extrapolating evolved stone age > psychological traits to the present day, though one example. > http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Capture-bonding is obvious. > > I would also say that it is clear from history that people under > stress from falling income per capita switch on the same mechanisms > that stone age peoples did for a resource crisis. These include > spreading xenophobic memes and supporting irrational leaders. > > Assuming the above analysis is correct, does anything jump out at you > as to how to prevent what happened in the red states? I certainly hope you're right, Keith. If so, and we do manage to fumble our way to an abundance economy, it will have an enormous impact on the political spectrum, shifting it towards one colour or another (I get confused with american concepts of right/left/blue/red. Over here, red is the colour of Labour/Socialist tendencies, and blue is Conservatives. Not that these labels are all that significant anyway, these days). But an abundance economy (or just 'more stuff, and less economic uncertainty for everyone', if you don't like the term 'abundance economy') would lead to more tolerance, less authoritarianism, more general sanity, and a safer world, is the message I'm getting. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon May 4 13:10:58 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 06:10:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: References: <005301d62193$e5d9be90$b18d3bb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00a301d62215$742074b0$5c615e10$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >?And so does the possibility that we won't even have an election on November 3, and please don't tell me both those things would be unconstitutional, I already know that. John K Clark Ja, so why worry? The constitution is the reason why POTUS has any power at all. Without that, he is just another person. If POTUS stays within the ConUS, he commands the military. Otherwise not. Do let me assure you, if POTUS could possibly by any means seize power, they would have done it a long time ago, starting in the late 1700s. The founders knew this and and wrote the law so that POTUS couldn?t. They understood the intoxicating effect of power. So they limited it. The system works. Given our current situation, I would think it is governors we need to watch. There are some of them who think their word is law. But every state has a legislature, and the legislature makes law, not the governor. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon May 4 13:18:33 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 09:18:33 -0400 Subject: [ExI] A Chinese animated propaganda video Message-ID: This short Chinese propaganda video is unusual because it contains more truth than lies, and that's very rare for propaganda. Its depiction of how the US got to where it is now is surprisingly accurate and complete, I would estimate about 85%; if it had included China's shameful cover up of what was happening in Wuhan in early December it would be close to 100%. Once upon a virus John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon May 4 13:47:35 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 08:47:35 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: <00a301d62215$742074b0$5c615e10$@rainier66.com> References: <005301d62193$e5d9be90$b18d3bb0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d62215$742074b0$5c615e10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: In Mississippi the legislature passed laws so that they could distribute the one billion dollars we are getting for virus relief. The governor first claimed it was his duty to distribute the money. After Katrina the governor did it. So we have a power struggle here. In this state the governor does not have much power, so we'll see how it plays out. bill w On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 8:13 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > > > > *>?*And so does the possibility that we won't even have an election on > November 3, and please don't tell me both those things would be > unconstitutional, I already know that. John K Clark > > > > > > Ja, so why worry? The constitution is the reason why POTUS has any power > at all. Without that, he is just another person. If POTUS stays within > the ConUS, he commands the military. Otherwise not. Do let me assure you, > if POTUS could possibly by any means seize power, they would have done it a > long time ago, starting in the late 1700s. The founders knew this and and > wrote the law so that POTUS couldn?t. They understood the intoxicating > effect of power. So they limited it. The system works. > > > > Given our current situation, I would think it is governors we need to > watch. There are some of them who think their word is law. But every > state has a legislature, and the legislature makes law, not the governor. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon May 4 13:47:23 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 09:47:23 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: <00a301d62215$742074b0$5c615e10$@rainier66.com> References: <005301d62193$e5d9be90$b18d3bb0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d62215$742074b0$5c615e10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 9:13 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ?And so does the possibility that we won't even have an election on >> November 3, and please don't tell me both those things would be >> unconstitutional, I already know that. John K Clark > > >* Ja, so why worry?* If the Constitution was a law of physics I wouldn't worry about somebody violating it. Do you think it is? *> if POTUS could possibly by any means seize power, they would have done > it a long time ago, starting in the late 1700s.* The current situation is unique in American history. Most previous presidents were not fascists, and those that were didn't have a large (about 35%) cult following, to them Donald J Trump can simply never do wrong. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon May 4 14:35:12 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 07:35:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: References: <005301d62193$e5d9be90$b18d3bb0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d62215$742074b0$5c615e10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <010501d62221$38ff02f0$aafd08d0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >>? Ja, so why worry? >?If the Constitution was a law of physics I wouldn't worry about somebody violating it. Do you think it is? Without it, the government has no power at all. Why does it worry you? >> if POTUS could possibly by any means seize power, they would have done it a long time ago, starting in the late 1700s. >?The current situation is unique in American history. Most previous presidents were not fascists, and those that were didn't have a large (about 35%) cult following, to them Donald J Trump can simply never do wrong. John K Clark Indeed? Andrew Jackson was fascist and attempted to seize power in the 1830s, via the military. However? the military is professional, and professional soldiers must be paid. Outside the constitution POTUS cannot pay them or feed them. So? that attempt failed. Note the often-forgotten third amendment. The purpose of that was to keep the military dependent on congress. US elections are held at the state level. If a POTUS were to cancel all elections, they would go on anyway because we still need to elect congress members every two years. With no election of federal offices, the terms of both POTUS and VPOTUS expires on 20 January 2021. So? the next in command is whoever is Speaker of the House at that time, and that person is sworn in by the Supreme Court. Problem solved. Why do you worry about this John? Find something real to worry about, for there are plenty of real threats. For instance? something we have discussed on this list for a long time, energy production. There is a really interesting video online free called Planet of the Humans. It has political stuff in there, but plenty of useful information too. It is about green energy, or renewable energy. Film maker Michael Moore starts with Elon Musk, and asks the obvious question: where does all the power come from to charge these rigs? Moore offers it free: https://planetofthehumans.com/ spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon May 4 14:43:45 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 07:43:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: <00a301d62215$742074b0$5c615e10$@rainier66.com> References: <00a301d62215$742074b0$5c615e10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <1E9F4AD5-E8C3-41B9-B533-1D7671D438A1@gmail.com> > On May 4, 2020, at 6:13 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat > > > >?And so does the possibility that we won't even have an election on November 3, and please don't tell me both those things would be unconstitutional, I already know that. John K Clark > > > Ja, so why worry? The constitution is the reason why POTUS has any power at all. No, the president or any ruler anywhere has power simply because others ? those who are ruled acquiesce and obey. Now, sure, those who are ruled might hold something like the Constitution or legal traditions and such in high regard. But ultimately any ruler has ?any power at all? because those they rule acquiesce and obey. Take away that, and they cease to rule. > Without that, he is just another person. If POTUS stays within the ConUS, he commands the military. Otherwise not. Do let me assure you, if POTUS could possibly by any means seize power, they would have done it a long time ago, starting in the late 1700s. The founders knew this and and wrote the law so that POTUS couldn?t. They understood the intoxicating effect of power. So they limited it. The system works. The COTUS doesn?t enforce itself. See above. The reason it has any play in US politics is because many of the rules hold it in high regard, though it seems misplaced here because the history of constitutional restraint in the US (or anywhere because constitutions go back to ancient times ? as far back as the Ancient Greek city-states) is sketchy. It really seems to align more with who controls the commanding heights and how much those who can and do effectively resist erosions of restraint. Add to those, the political history of many nations ? and the US is no exception here ? has been one of executive power increasing and eroding restraints. Robert Higgs outlined this process as a ratchet effect: crises arise, emergency measures are taken which increase the power of the rulers, the crises resolve, there?s a relaxation of power but never back to previous levels. (Higgs focused not so much on executive power as on just government in general. Cf. his _Crisis and Leviathan_.) Heck, early in US history, the current Constitution?s limits was pretty much ignored when the Federalists controlled all branches of the central government. Even before that, what happened with the Articles of Confederation? The limits and restraints they imposed on the national government were set aside and ignored, no? This should be quite scary because regardless of whether Trump leaves office this year or by 2024, he?s definitely turned the ratchet (as did Obama, Bush, Clinton, etc. ad nauseam) many times. Also, regardless of the stability of any political system, including constitutional ones, they can all break down. An ancient example is the Roman Republic, which lasted much longer than the US has been in existence, but eventually faced severe tests, especially under Marius and Sulla and then were civil wars and the Republic ended with a dictator effectively in charge for life. > Given our current situation, I would think it is governors we need to watch. There are some of them who think their word is law. But every state has a legislature, and the legislature makes law, not the governor. I wouldn?t ignore overreach at the state level, but let?s not ignore it at the national level either. Currently, both state governors and the president can continue to expand their respective powers and even have clashes without checking each other. (In fact, antifederists ? those who opposed the 1789 Constitution ? argues that separation of powers didn?t mean each separate power would check each other as they could all expand by limiting the power of those they ruled.) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon May 4 15:03:58 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 08:03:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: References: <005301d62193$e5d9be90$b18d3bb0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d62215$742074b0$5c615e10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <012501d62225$3d90ea50$b8b2bef0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >?The current situation is unique in American history. Most previous presidents were not fascists, and those that were didn't have a large (about 35%) cult following, to them Donald J Trump can simply never do wrong. John K Clark John, this points out something that causes plenty of us to suspect your commentary is false-flag support of the current POTUS (whose name escapes me.) Anyone running for federal level who expresses contempt for a sizeable segment of the population will likely lose. We saw that in the now-infamous ?deplorables? comment, for although it was aimed at only a quarter of the voters, it felt a lot like it was aimed at about half, or perhaps more than half. That?s really What Happened. The author of What Happened doesn?t get that, still doesn?t get it. When politicians identify their political opponents followers and Fascists, hicks, gullible rubes and all that, they disparage and turn away those whose votes are worth more, specifically the ones from less populated states. That deplorables comment was echoed millions of times, and became a campaign slogan. Swing states swung, deplorable states became more deplorable, and we see the result. Granted, you could double down on haranguing the list with the bitter tirades if you wish, but it is having the opposite influence of what face value would suggest. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon May 4 16:29:41 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 11:29:41 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: <012501d62225$3d90ea50$b8b2bef0$@rainier66.com> References: <005301d62193$e5d9be90$b18d3bb0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d62215$742074b0$5c615e10$@rainier66.com> <012501d62225$3d90ea50$b8b2bef0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Is there any real alternative to nuclear power? How many people have been killed by coal? Miners, people who live near those power plants, and so on. Other forms are not cost effective yet, are they? bill w On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 10:07 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > > >?The current situation is unique in American history. Most previous > presidents were not fascists, and those that were didn't have a large > (about 35%) cult following, to them Donald J Trump can simply never do > wrong. John K Clark > > > > > > John, this points out something that causes plenty of us to suspect your > commentary is false-flag support of the current POTUS (whose name escapes > me.) Anyone running for federal level who expresses contempt for a > sizeable segment of the population will likely lose. We saw that in the > now-infamous ?deplorables? comment, for although it was aimed at only a > quarter of the voters, it felt a lot like it was aimed at about half, or > perhaps more than half. That?s really What Happened. The author of What > Happened doesn?t get that, still doesn?t get it. > > > > When politicians identify their political opponents followers and > Fascists, hicks, gullible rubes and all that, they disparage and turn away > those whose votes are worth more, specifically the ones from less populated > states. That deplorables comment was echoed millions of times, and became > a campaign slogan. Swing states swung, deplorable states became more > deplorable, and we see the result. > > > > Granted, you could double down on haranguing the list with the bitter > tirades if you wish, but it is having the opposite influence of what face > value would suggest. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Mon May 4 17:28:18 2020 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 13:28:18 -0400 Subject: [ExI] BIZARRE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6DE275C1-3B18-40CF-8A4F-E2F1D1450386@alumni.virginia.edu> Here?s some evidence of this escalating to violence: ?A 16-year-old boy in California's San Fernando Valley was physically attacked this week by bullies in his high school who accused him of having the coronavirus ? simply because he is Asian American...? Excerpted from CBS News (February 14, 2020). https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-bullies-attack-asian-teen-los-angeles-accusing-him-of-having-coronavirus/ https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/23/us/chinese-coronavirus-racist-attacks.html https://www.cbs7.com/content/news/FIRST-ON-CBS7-Suspect-admitted-to-trying-to-kill-family-at-Midland-Sams-Club-affidavit-says-568837371.html A woman wearing a face mask was punched and kicked by a man who called her "diseased.?Excerpted from NBC News (February 5, 2020). A woman was confronted on the subway by somebody yelling, "Where is your corona mask you Asian b?h," before punching the woman dislocating her jaw. Excerpted from the New York Post (March 10, 2020). > On Apr 16, 2020, at 8:53 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > > >> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 10:11 AM Mike Dougherty wrote: >> >> So "fake news"? >> >> If i read that a bar in houston's chinatown is giving away free beer upon showing a receipt from any of the local chinatown businesses because people are avoiding that part of the city, out of ignorance and fear... is it so difficult to imagine misdirected frustration could turn violent? > > ### Ignorance? The Chinese virus was brought to the US by travelers, many of them travelers from China. In the absence of testing it's a reasonable presumption that your risk of getting infected by a Chinese virus is higher in Chinatown, at least initially. Does avoiding Chinatown make you into an "ignorant asshole"? > > So did this "misdirected frustration" actually turn violent? Is there a spike in anti-Asian hate crimes? How many Asians have been victimized recently? Who were the perpetrators? Anything similar to the Rodney King riots? > > Anti-American, leftist mass media (I am repeating myself here) promote the narrative of Americans being just bad, hateful people. When the facts on the ground do not fit the story, when the supply of real hate crimes does not meet the demand, there are many Jussie Smollets willing to create fake ones. That's why I am highly suspicious of those ritual condemnation stories about the ugly mainstream Americans, ignorant assholes, stupid, filthy and rural. > -------------------------- >> >> I've seen fb posts "fuck china" from people who i know haven't been more than 50 miles from their rural American home their whole life. >> > > ### Well, the CCP fucked us and the rest of the world royally. It's time for some disengagement, for mounting a defense against the economic warfare Chicoms employed against the US. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Mon May 4 17:54:15 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 10:54:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? Message-ID: Darin Sunley wrote: > Clearly, yelling at them online, degrading them, and demanding they get onboard with the 21st century social progress movement like their coastal betters will win their hearts and minds! > Also, they should obviously learn to code, I don't think anyone will miss the sarcasm. Nice reply. There is one interesting example in recent years, the Irish Republican Army. The support for the IRA just faded out over a period of years. Why? And can this happen in other places? I have argued that the underlying reason the IRA faded out was that a few decades back, the Irish women went from way over replacement (~4 kids) to the European average of around two. Eventually, economic growth got ahead of population growth improving income per capita. My contention (based on the stone age war model) is that the improving income per capita and the brighter future view it engenders shut off population support for war or related civil disruption. As to how the economic prospects for the red states might be improved, that perhaps could be done with federal policies. But the problem and potential solutions would need to be widely recognized. That would be really hard given how difficult it is to get these ideas across--even here. Keith From atymes at gmail.com Mon May 4 17:57:45 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 10:57:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 4:30 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 04/05/2020 09:33, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > I believe the counterargument is the endocrine system's measurable > > effects on personality, dominant moods, and several other > > psychological parts that are commonly regarded as the self - as the > > thing that warrants uploading. > > No argument here, and I suppose I should modify my original statement > about changes to the body not having much of an effect on our identity. > Changes to the endocrine system would be significant, and should be > included in the somatic data that goes along with the brain data. Still > no need to preserve the entire body just for this, though. The usual choices are "just the head" or "the entire body". Since the former choice removes the endocrine system (and anything else outside the head that might possibly be relevant), that pushes people to the latter choice. It should be noted that this is theoretically a false dichotomy. For instance, if one merely chopped off the arms and legs then preserved the head and torso, that should capture everything that will need to be scanned to create an accurate digital self, with arms and legs added back in from generic human data. But in practice, real options presented today for cryopreservation make that a true dichotomy. For example, as of today, Alcor offers to preserve just the head or the entire body; they do not offer any "in between" option. Every other cryonics service I've seen, either offers the same choice or only offers one or the other option. So there is a real, practical choice - again, in terms of what is available today - between "just the head" and "the entire body". Since no other options are available today, no other options merit consideration for someone facing cryopreservation today. Other options might be considered for a future service, if there is a realistic chance that some cryopreservation service might someday offer other options. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Mon May 4 18:25:52 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 11:25:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Nuclear power was is the USA Message-ID: William Flynn Wallace wrote: > Is there any real alternative to nuclear power? Several, a number of which have been mentioned here. If you want to consider the one I worked on for ten years, visit the google group power satellite economics. One of the last things posted was an analysis I did of what it would take to put the world on synthetic fuel from PV converted to oil. Recently the cost of PV power in the mid-east has gotten down to 1.69 cents per kWh. At that price, synthetic oil would cost about the same as the stuff that comes out of the ground. Supplying the world oil market would take paving about 1/3 of the Sahara desert with PV. Keith From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon May 4 19:30:14 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 12:30:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FB0634C-70D9-4EAD-8377-82EA2DFD8AF7@gmail.com> On May 4, 2020, at 10:56 AM, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > > ?Darin Sunley wrote: > >> Clearly, yelling at them online, degrading them, and demanding they get > onboard with the 21st century social progress movement like their coastal > betters will win their hearts and minds! > >> Also, they should obviously learn to code, > > I don't think anyone will miss the sarcasm. Nice reply. > > There is one interesting example in recent years, the Irish Republican > Army. The support for the IRA just faded out over a period of years. > Why? And can this happen in other places? > > I have argued that the underlying reason the IRA faded out was that a > few decades back, the Irish women went from way over replacement (~4 > kids) to the European average of around two. > > Eventually, economic growth got ahead of population growth improving > income per capita. My contention (based on the stone age war model) > is that the improving income per capita and the brighter future view > it engenders shut off population support for war or related civil > disruption. I?ve heard others claim some different based on demographics: Catholics increased in relative numbers, eventually becoming majorities in Northern Ireland counties such that electoral politics could succeed over violence. This shift happened in the 1980s and 1990s and voila! peace talks started and the PIRA. Of course, there are splinter groups like the Real IRA that still actively use violence to promote their agenda. > As to how the economic prospects for the red states might be improved, > that perhaps could be done with federal policies. But the problem and > potential solutions would need to be widely recognized. That would be > really hard given how difficult it is to get these ideas across--even > here. In terms of wealth redistribution policies, don?t red states already tend to get more federal dollars than they are forced to pay? So a change in federal policy would be what here? Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon May 4 20:24:36 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 13:24:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Does the Pope have Corvid-19? References: <559402829.1146268.1588623692814@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Friday, February 28, 2020, 08:33:08 PM PST, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 6:32 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: >> I?m not sure one will ever have the optimal time to dismantle the current system ? > > Well I'm sure the optimal time isn't during a worldwide pandemic, people are going to > be stressed and panicked enough as it is without throwing that hairball into the mix, Show Quoted Content > On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 6:32 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: >> I?m not sure one will ever have the optimal time to dismantle the current system ? > > Well I'm sure the optimal time isn't during a worldwide pandemic, people are going to > be stressed and panicked enough as it is without throwing that hairball into the mix, So wait until next year. The issue has already been discussed for years and there are plans on how to dismantle the current system going back decades. It's not like this is new territory. And nations have before changed their monetary and banking systems -- almost always because of and even during crises. In fact, crises are usually the reason such systems are changed. Very rarely do they simply change because some academics said, 'Let's try this out.' >> in other words, if there?ll ever be a time it?ll be painless. > > There will never be such a time because the AI Singularity will happen first rendering > economic questions of that sort moot. Actually, you don't know that either there will be a AI Singularity or that it will render economic questions moot. There might not be one in the first place. But let's say there is. Then it might simply shift economic questions to a different arena depending on how it plays out. Whatever agents exist will still face economic problems -- in the general sense of economics being about action by agents who face choices because their goals exceed their means and they have imperfect knowledge and suffer under time (which are all kind of linked). In general, don't fall for the argumentum ad singularitatem: which is that any problem can be ignored simply by saying a technological singularity will render it meaningless. >> It?s kind of like abolishing slavery. It?s going to cause disruption, > > Yeah, like the sort of disruption the Chicxulub Event caused. Not at all. >> but that can?t be the go to argument against it. > > Oh I think it can be. Remember that next time you argue for any major change. To me it seems you have a double standard here. Regards, Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon May 4 20:34:28 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 13:34:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <84B74946-D4B3-4280-88DD-2B9E9500F072@gmail.com> On May 4, 2020, at 1:35 AM, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat wrote: > >> On Mon, 4 May 2020 at 15:04, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: >>> On May 2, 2020, at 5:55 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: >>> That's not entirely fair, the American people never supported Donald Trump, not before the election during it or after it. The American people made it clear they wanted Hillary Clinton to be the next president, but under our system the wishes of the American people don't matter. Only the 538 members of the Electoral College are allowed to vote in the only presidential election that matters, and 304 of them decided that what this country really needed was a president who was an imbecile; and so like it or not that's exactly what the American people ended up with in addition to unconventional suggestions on where to place Clorox to cure viral disease. >>> >>> Meanwhile the German people picked somebody who has a doctorate in Quantum Chemistry, Angela Merkel, to be their leader, and because Germany is a more democratic country than the USA the people got what they wanted. And today only 80 people out of a million die of COVID-19 in Germany but in the USA 199 die. >> >> You must know more about the current German political system then me because I was under the impression that like in many parliamentary systems the prime minister (or, in this case, chancellor) is not chosen by direct election of the ?people,? but us instead is chosen by members of the parliament (or, in this case, Bundestag). And I believe this is how Merkel was chosen. > > In such systems, the people still effectively elect the leader, because the leader has already been chosen by the parliamentarians whom they elect. The parliament can change the leader by vote at any time. > >> If the US adopted something like that, it would be more like the Congress choosing the president. (And maybe the president only serving as long as they had majority backing in the Congress.) >> >> Also, another wrinkle on how the US president is chosen. They must first go through their party choosing them. And that often involves popular elections in primaries (usually limited to party members). I bring this up because Trump didn?t just go straight to the Electoral College. He was vetted via a nomination process that did involve a popular vote (amongst his party members in most places) at some points. Though later on what happens is delegates vote in a convention. >> >> I?m no saying this because I agree with either having Trump in office, with the specific presidential election process, or with having a president. (Clinton, by the way, went through a similar but slightly different process mainly because of superdelegates.) Yes, but they don't directly elect the leader, so that's similar to the Electoral College in the US: the voters elect the electors and the electors choose the president. Thus, John Clark was wrong here, in my understanding about how Merkel became and remains chancellor. I do agree, though, that the parliamentary approach is a bit more responsive since there can be things like votes of confidence pretty much whenever parliament is in session. In the US, once the president is elected, it's very hard to remove them from office -- something anyone can see with the current president. By the way, though I'm an anarchist, I've often told my non-anarchist friends that I believe a parliamentary system like the UK's might be better in the US than the presidential one -- better at restraining executive power. It wouldn't be foolproof, but it would likely discipline the executive better than the current system. Of course, it might not given how the Congress here, over the decades, has basically handed presidents ever more power. No reason that can't happen with slightly different political systems -- and the UK and Germany aren't known for having weak prime ministers. (Part of the problem here is thinking that constitutional restraints are real restraints. In effect, here the 1789 Constitution doesn't much control the real power because its restraints don't match the real power relationships. For instance, separation of powers doesn't mean much if one faction controls enough of the supposedly separate powers -- as now the presidency and the federal courts are dominated by the GOP. You'd want a court that isn't allied with the branch it's supposed to restrain, no?) Regards, Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Mon May 4 20:37:22 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 13:37:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? Message-ID: John Clark wrote: snip > The current situation is unique in American history. Most previous presidents were not fascists, and those that were didn't have a large (about 35%) cult following, to them Donald J Trump can simply never do wrong. That falls out from the model I have discussed and is common with cult leaders. If people are attracted to irrational, then taking about imbibing bleach is not going to bother such people. (Unless they do it.) Railing against the existing situation doesn't help much. Understanding why we have the situation might lead to corrective steps, but not so far. That's the biggest objection I have to EP. The situation is obvious, but the model does not lead to suggestions beyond the importance of birth control to keep the "capita" in income per capita down and the need for economic growth faster than the population growth. Nanotech and expansion into space (which used to be topics on this list) might jack up economic growth and usher in an era of peace. Or they might not, who knows? Keith From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon May 4 22:22:49 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 17:22:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] BIZARRE In-Reply-To: <6DE275C1-3B18-40CF-8A4F-E2F1D1450386@alumni.virginia.edu> References: <6DE275C1-3B18-40CF-8A4F-E2F1D1450386@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: <2F8619E9-292D-402F-B001-52F8C76DD542@gmail.com> These attacks are so illogical. If they have corona (which they probably don?t), then you shouldn?t touch them. SR Ballard > On May 4, 2020, at 12:28 PM, Henry Rivera via extropy-chat wrote: > > Here?s some evidence of this escalating to violence: > > ?A 16-year-old boy in California's San Fernando Valley was physically attacked this week by bullies in his high school who accused him of having the coronavirus ? simply because he is Asian American...? Excerpted from CBS News (February 14, 2020). > https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-bullies-attack-asian-teen-los-angeles-accusing-him-of-having-coronavirus/ > > https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/23/us/chinese-coronavirus-racist-attacks.html > > https://www.cbs7.com/content/news/FIRST-ON-CBS7-Suspect-admitted-to-trying-to-kill-family-at-Midland-Sams-Club-affidavit-says-568837371.html > > A woman wearing a face mask was punched and kicked by a man who called her "diseased.?Excerpted from NBC News (February 5, 2020). > > A woman was confronted on the subway by somebody yelling, "Where is your corona mask you Asian b?h," before punching the woman dislocating her jaw. Excerpted from the New York Post (March 10, 2020). > > >> On Apr 16, 2020, at 8:53 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> ? >> >> >>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 10:11 AM Mike Dougherty wrote: >>> >>> So "fake news"? >>> >>> If i read that a bar in houston's chinatown is giving away free beer upon showing a receipt from any of the local chinatown businesses because people are avoiding that part of the city, out of ignorance and fear... is it so difficult to imagine misdirected frustration could turn violent? >> >> ### Ignorance? The Chinese virus was brought to the US by travelers, many of them travelers from China. In the absence of testing it's a reasonable presumption that your risk of getting infected by a Chinese virus is higher in Chinatown, at least initially. Does avoiding Chinatown make you into an "ignorant asshole"? >> >> So did this "misdirected frustration" actually turn violent? Is there a spike in anti-Asian hate crimes? How many Asians have been victimized recently? Who were the perpetrators? Anything similar to the Rodney King riots? >> >> Anti-American, leftist mass media (I am repeating myself here) promote the narrative of Americans being just bad, hateful people. When the facts on the ground do not fit the story, when the supply of real hate crimes does not meet the demand, there are many Jussie Smollets willing to create fake ones. That's why I am highly suspicious of those ritual condemnation stories about the ugly mainstream Americans, ignorant assholes, stupid, filthy and rural. >> -------------------------- >>> >>> I've seen fb posts "fuck china" from people who i know haven't been more than 50 miles from their rural American home their whole life. >>> >> >> ### Well, the CCP fucked us and the rest of the world royally. It's time for some disengagement, for mounting a defense against the economic warfare Chicoms employed against the US. >> >> Rafal >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Tue May 5 00:29:19 2020 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 00:29:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] Evolved Complexity In-Reply-To: References: <7208fc42-ac12-afad-bac6-56801ef788f9@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <471287573.878020.1588638559764@mail.yahoo.com> On Thursday, April 30, 2020, 03:10:45 AM PDT, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote:? On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 3:29 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: >?? > But ecosystems, or at least the ecosphere as a whole, tending toward more complexity is an interesting idea. If true (which it seems, at first glance, to be), then evolution does produce more complexity. That's something I've never considered before, and I'm wondering what the implications of it might be. > ### Complexity is built on complexity. As soon as some spots in the universe accumulate some complexity, more complexity can develop in those areas.? > This goes beyond the living world and the ecosphere - it's a story arc that spans infinities. ---------------------- Yes, but the ongoing complexification of our universe as a whole is evident from both the expansion of the universe and the second law of thermodynamics, both of which are associated with the arrow of time. This is evident from even a single particle system. The more space there is for the wave function to spread out, the more possible quantum states are available for the particle to assume. An increasing number of possible states leads to greater entropy/information and is synonymous with greater Kolmogorov complexity. ---------------------- > I keep coming back in my thoughts to Wolfram's new physics. He starts with?the simplest possible, irreducible entities and the simplest possible, irreducible operations, concepts seemingly devoid of a relationship to physics and yet he finds they are capable of generating analogues of surprisingly high-level physical concepts. In his vision, what?the naive mind might see as simple things, such as space, vacuum, or electrons are in fact made of a stupendous number of irreducible objects/relationships. The humble electron has 10e35 pieces of math in it. The final, indivisible, elementary length is 10e58 times smaller than Planck length. ---------------------------- Leave it to Wolfram to try to brute force a theory of everything. I have been looking over his website but I can't seem to find where he mentions specific figures like the 10^35 parts to an electron. I am a little skeptical of his claims to be honest. To say that the entire universe could arise from a simple recursive rule that adds nodes and edges to a hypergraph sounds a little bit like saying that 42 is the answer to everything. And we certainly can't experimentally probe distances that are smaller relative to a Planck length than the Planck length is to us. With our best supercomputer, we can't even iterate candidate rules 10^35 times within the age of the universe in order to see if we can simulate an electron. His theory is not experimentally testable and is not practical to compute with modern hardware. --------------------------- > It takes a lot of moving parts to create a quark, it takes millions of years to transform a soup of quarks into galaxies made of boring hydrogen, it takes billions of years to cook up heavier elements out of the hydrogen, it takes hundreds of millions of years to create planets with alkaline seeps in the primordial seas, hundreds of millions of years to create the first self-replicating creatures, it takes about a billion years before some of the creatures to develop nervous systems, then another 700 million years before some of the nervous systems invent the scientific method, then another 500 years before non-biological thinking can develop on the substrate of biological creatures... (You notice the abrupt change in time-scale here, from billions to hundreds of years? An interesting?tidbit).? ------------------------------------- Where do the moving parts come from one?? It seems like he is saying that you can start with platonic bits and get matter particles out of them after an insane number of iterations. I don't see how that is possible by mathematical induction. Or is he positing some sort of ur-particle more fundamental that the standard model of which quarks and electrons are built and that his nodes and edges represent? -------------------------------- > I don't know what's next but it's clear that complexity has created more complexity since forever, every step of the way enabled only after mind-bogglingly?large numbers of moving parts come together in just the right way. There is more complexity coming, if not in our neck of the woods, then somewhere else in the infinite garden of all self-consistent mathematical objects (yes, Jason, if you read it, I am a modal realist, too). ------------------------------ I have to admit that Wolfram's theory seems superficially similar to my recent work on what I call "synergistic systems" or systems comprised of simpler components that display emergent properties that the individual parts themselves do not have. I have been mathematically analyzing how the whole can be greater than the sum of the parts as it were. An example application for my theory is deriving a mathematical description of why water is wet or how cells can live while composed of unliving molecules.? The main similarity between our theories is that we both use hypergraphs but his approach is recursive and my approach is more closed-form and holistic. I am trying to explain how complex systems work and not necessarily trying to be "fundamental". For example, my theory assumes quantum mechanics instead of trying to derive it from simpler theory. --------------------------------------- > Wolfram's notion of time is much different from the concept of time in mainstream physics, including general relativity. His measure of time as the number of elementary operations needed to create a hypergraph is incredibly appealing to me in an intuitive way. Time so conceived has a beginning but not an end, since hypergraphs are not limited in the number of elements they can contain. There is no end to complexity in general, although not all branches of the mathematical tree go on forever. ------------------------------------ His description of time is problematic. It seems to assume a sort of universal time that would violate GR. How do you resolve conflicts between hypergraph elements as to which came first in temporal order and so would be able to have the rule applied to them to generate the other? Does F(chicken) = egg or F(egg) = chicken? ----------------------------------- > He is not the first thinker to come up with the "It from bit" idea but to the best of my knowledge he is the first researcher to move it from a neat quip, or Game of Life antics to an actual research program. I hope that more amazing things come out of it. ---------------------------------- It is an interesting idea, I just think it gets a little hand wavy about at which step the bit becomes an it. Of course a Platonic modal realist might say that all self-consistent maths correspond to the laws of physics in some universe somewhere but then how did those laws get sorted from the Platonic commons to a universe near you? Also, how does pure determinism simulate quantum randomness? Or does a single simple rule generate ALL possible universes? Stuart LaForge From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue May 5 01:47:16 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 18:47:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> On Monday, April 15, 2019, 05:41:06 PM PDT, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > On Sat, Apr 13, 2019 at 2:55 PM Dan TheBookMan wrote: >> On Apr 13, 2019, at 2:24 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: >>> On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 3:52 PM William Flynn Wallace wrote: >> >>>> 1. Rejection of genetics, neurology, and psychology as they pertain to sex and gender. >>> ### No, really? Rejection of the science of gender is one of the most prominent features of modern leftist identity, not right-identity, at least among whites. >> >> I?m curious what you mean here by rejecting of the science of gender. Do you [mean] >> rejection of binary gender and of bioessentialism in gender? If so, it seems to me that >> the science tends to support non-binary gender and also that gender is definitely >> influenced by things aside from biology (in other words, there?s no uncomplicated >> path from allosomes to hormones to genitals to gender). See the work of Cordelia >> Fine, especially her _Delusions of Gender_, and Anne Fausto-Sterling on this. Both >> of them rely on science to challenge binary gender and the simple model of >> sex/gender that many adhere to. > > ### Gender is of course a biological trait, with culturally modified manifestations. > As any complex biological trait gender is not "binary", since thousands of moving parts > don't neatly partition into two sets - there are always millions of ways for a mechanism > to go wrong and produce all kinds of more or less bizarre versions. Show Quoted Content > On Sat, Apr 13, 2019 at 2:55 PM Dan TheBookMan wrote: >> On Apr 13, 2019, at 2:24 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: >>> On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 3:52 PM William Flynn Wallace wrote: >> >>>> 1. Rejection of genetics, neurology, and psychology as they pertain to sex and gender. >>> ### No, really? Rejection of the science of gender is one of the most prominent features of modern leftist identity, not right-identity, at least among whites. >> >> I?m curious what you mean here by rejecting of the science of gender. Do you [mean] >> rejection of binary gender and of bioessentialism in gender? If so, it seems to me that >> the science tends to support non-binary gender and also that gender is definitely >> influenced by things aside from biology (in other words, there?s no uncomplicated >> path from allosomes to hormones to genitals to gender). See the work of Cordelia >> Fine, especially her _Delusions of Gender_, and Anne Fausto-Sterling on this. Both >> of them rely on science to challenge binary gender and the simple model of >> sex/gender that many adhere to. > > ### Gender is of course a biological trait, with culturally modified manifestations. > As any complex biological trait gender is not "binary", since thousands of moving parts > don't neatly partition into two sets - there are always millions of ways for a mechanism > to go wrong and produce all kinds of more or less bizarre versions. First off, I'm not these variations are signs of a 'mechanism' 'go[ne] wrong.' Gender might have a biological basis, but this is probably a little like language. Yes, language has a biological basis, and things can go wrong here, but people speaking different languages or dialects (or even ideolects) and accents isn't really an example of biological mechanisms going wrong. Instead, that someone speaks Estuary English as opposed to Boston English is probably nothing to do with different genes or stuff like that. Now, to be sure, I don't mean to say gender is all learned or acquired, but I think much of it is. For instance, men wearing hose in Medieval times, though now that would considered womanly today. (Heck, the whole Medieval male attire (for a middle class or noble) would probably be considered, outside of re-enactments and film, cross-dressing today. To be sure, many films get it wrong, especially recent ones where men tend to dress in pants and look very 19th/20th century.) Now I doubt the change was because underlying biology (whether genes, hormones, gonads, or genitalia) swapped between males and females -- leaving aside the few whole are neither. > What today's extreme leftists do is they deny the importance of the biological underpinnings > of gender and they claim that a person's expressed preference to be included in some > gender category is sufficient for inclusion, regardless of other measurables. They also > deny the normative distinction between healthy, adaptive genders, of which there are > two, and the diverse gradations of deviancy. Show Quoted Content > What today's extreme leftists do is they deny the importance of the biological underpinnings > of gender and they claim that a person's expressed preference to be included in some > gender category is sufficient for inclusion, regardless of other measurables. They also > deny the normative distinction between healthy, adaptive genders, of which there are > two, and the diverse gradations of deviancy. I disagree with there being two 'healthy, adaptive genders.' That's sneaking in basically religious morality with, of course, a pseudo-biological rationale, into these categories. Again, I ask you look over the work of folks like Anne Fausto-Sterling and Cordelia Fine. > So, they say that a psychologically disturbed man or a malingering man may claim > himself to be a woman and we, normal people, are obliged to respect his claims. Personally knowing and working with many people who identify as trans, I can attest that they aren't malingerers. I'm wondering where you get that from... Of course, if like, years ago, when homosexuality was considered deviant, it was easy to point to openly gay people living a deviant lifestyle -- probably because they were persecuted and marginalized. (The same thing has been done before to individuals for being women, not the right skin color, not the right ethnicity, and the like.) To be sure, I don't want to say that there are no Leftists, extreme or otherwise, who get this stuff wrong or who embrace views going against science. But current gender/sex science seems to lean much more toward views conservatives (and alt-right, IDW folks) oppose. Regards, Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Tue May 5 01:56:45 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 19:56:45 -0600 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> Message-ID: I read a good definition for "left" and "right" that I think holds for both the historical and modern cases. The "left" trusts the government more than their neighbors, especially their "right" neighbors. The "right" trusts their neighbors, even their "left" neighbors, more than the government. On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 7:50 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Monday, April 15, 2019, 05:41:06 PM PDT, Rafal Smigrodzki < > rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote: > > On Sat, Apr 13, 2019 at 2:55 PM Dan TheBookMan > wrote: > > On Apr 13, 2019, at 2:24 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki > wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 3:52 PM William Flynn Wallace > wrote: > > > > 1. Rejection of genetics, neurology, and psychology as they pertain > to sex and gender. > > ### No, really? Rejection of the science of gender is one of the most > prominent features of modern leftist identity, not right-identity, at least > among whites. > > > I?m curious what you mean here by rejecting of the science of gender. Do > you [mean] > > rejection of binary gender and of bioessentialism in gender? If so, it > seems to me that > > the science tends to support non-binary gender and also that gender is > definitely > > influenced by things aside from biology (in other words, there?s no > uncomplicated > > path from allosomes to hormones to genitals to gender). See the work of > Cordelia > > Fine, especially her _Delusions of Gender_, and Anne Fausto-Sterling on > this. Both > > of them rely on science to challenge binary gender and the simple model of > > sex/gender that many adhere to. > > > ### Gender is of course a biological trait, with culturally modified > manifestations. > > As any complex biological trait gender is not "binary", since thousands of > moving parts > > don't neatly partition into two sets - there are always millions of ways > for a mechanism > > to go wrong and produce all kinds of more or less bizarre versions. > > Show Quoted Content > > On Sat, Apr 13, 2019 at 2:55 PM Dan TheBookMan > wrote: > > On Apr 13, 2019, at 2:24 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki > wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 3:52 PM William Flynn Wallace > wrote: > > > > 1. Rejection of genetics, neurology, and psychology as they pertain > to sex and gender. > > ### No, really? Rejection of the science of gender is one of the most > prominent features of modern leftist identity, not right-identity, at least > among whites. > > > I?m curious what you mean here by rejecting of the science of gender. Do > you [mean] > > rejection of binary gender and of bioessentialism in gender? If so, it > seems to me that > > the science tends to support non-binary gender and also that gender is > definitely > > influenced by things aside from biology (in other words, there?s no > uncomplicated > > path from allosomes to hormones to genitals to gender). See the work of > Cordelia > > Fine, especially her _Delusions of Gender_, and Anne Fausto-Sterling on > this. Both > > of them rely on science to challenge binary gender and the simple model of > > sex/gender that many adhere to. > > > ### Gender is of course a biological trait, with culturally modified > manifestations. > > As any complex biological trait gender is not "binary", since thousands of > moving parts > > don't neatly partition into two sets - there are always millions of ways > for a mechanism > > to go wrong and produce all kinds of more or less bizarre versions. > > > First off, I'm not these variations are signs of a 'mechanism' 'go[ne] > wrong.' Gender might have a biological basis, but this is probably a little > like language. Yes, language has a biological basis, and things can go > wrong here, but people speaking different languages or dialects (or even > ideolects) and accents isn't really an example of biological mechanisms > going wrong. Instead, that someone speaks Estuary English as opposed to > Boston English is probably nothing to do with different genes or stuff like > that. > > Now, to be sure, I don't mean to say gender is all learned or acquired, > but I think much of it is. For instance, men wearing hose in Medieval > times, though now that would considered womanly today. (Heck, the whole > Medieval male attire (for a middle class or noble) would probably be > considered, outside of re-enactments and film, cross-dressing today. To be > sure, many films get it wrong, especially recent ones where men tend to > dress in pants and look very 19th/20th century.) Now I doubt the change was > because underlying biology (whether genes, hormones, gonads, or genitalia) > swapped between males and females -- leaving aside the few whole are > neither. > > What today's extreme leftists do is they deny the importance of the > biological underpinnings > > of gender and they claim that a person's expressed preference to be > included in some > > gender category is sufficient for inclusion, regardless of other > measurables. They also > > deny the normative distinction between healthy, adaptive genders, of which > there are > > two, and the diverse gradations of deviancy. > > Show Quoted Content > > What today's extreme leftists do is they deny the importance of the > biological underpinnings > > of gender and they claim that a person's expressed preference to be > included in some > > gender category is sufficient for inclusion, regardless of other > measurables. They also > > deny the normative distinction between healthy, adaptive genders, of which > there are > > two, and the diverse gradations of deviancy. > > > I disagree with there being two 'healthy, adaptive genders.' That's > sneaking in basically religious morality with, of course, a > pseudo-biological rationale, into these categories. Again, I ask you look > over the work of folks like Anne Fausto-Sterling and Cordelia Fine. > > So, they say that a psychologically disturbed man or a malingering man may > claim > > himself to be a woman and we, normal people, are obliged to respect his > claims. > > > Personally knowing and working with many people who identify as trans, I > can attest that they aren't malingerers. I'm wondering where you get that > from... Of course, if like, years ago, when homosexuality was considered > deviant, it was easy to point to openly gay people living a deviant > lifestyle -- probably because they were persecuted and marginalized. (The > same thing has been done before to individuals for being women, not the > right skin color, not the right ethnicity, and the like.) > > To be sure, I don't want to say that there are no Leftists, extreme or > otherwise, who get this stuff wrong or who embrace views going against > science. But current gender/sex science seems to lean much more toward > views conservatives (and alt-right, IDW folks) oppose. > > Regards, > > Dan > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Tue May 5 02:27:08 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 19:27:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Singularity was Does the Pope have Corvid-19? Message-ID: Dan TheBookMan wrote: snip [John Clark] >> There will never be such a time because the AI Singularity will happen first > rendering economic questions of that sort moot. > Actually, you don't know that either there will be a AI Singularity or that it will render economic questions moot. If you know of a way (short of societal collapse) that the singularity could be avoided, there are a bunch of people such as the ones at:"Less Wrong" and the Machine Intelligence Research Institute who would very much like to hear such reasoning. snip Keith From stathisp at gmail.com Tue May 5 03:44:27 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 13:44:27 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: <84B74946-D4B3-4280-88DD-2B9E9500F072@gmail.com> References: <84B74946-D4B3-4280-88DD-2B9E9500F072@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 06:36, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On May 4, 2020, at 1:35 AM, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > On Mon, 4 May 2020 at 15:04, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On May 2, 2020, at 5:55 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> That's not entirely fair, the American people never supported Donald >> Trump, not before the election during it or after it. The American people >> made it clear they wanted Hillary Clinton to be the next president, but >> under our system the wishes of the American people don't matter. Only the >> 538 members of the Electoral College are allowed to vote in the only >> presidential election that matters, and 304 of them decided that what this >> country really needed was a president who was an imbecile; and so like it >> or not that's exactly what the American people ended up with in addition to >> unconventional suggestions on where to place Clorox to cure viral disease. >> >> Meanwhile the German people picked somebody who has a doctorate in >> Quantum Chemistry, Angela Merkel, to be their leader, and because Germany >> is a more democratic country than the USA the people got what they wanted. >> And today only 80 people out of a million die of COVID-19 in Germany but in >> the USA 199 die. >> >> >> You must know more about the current German political system then me >> because I was under the impression that like in many parliamentary systems >> the prime minister (or, in this case, chancellor) is not chosen by direct >> election of the ?people,? but us instead is chosen by members of the >> parliament (or, in this case, Bundestag). And I believe this is how Merkel >> was chosen. >> > > In such systems, the people still effectively elect the leader, because > the leader has already been chosen by the parliamentarians whom they elect. > The parliament can change the leader by vote at any time. > > If the US adopted something like that, it would be more like the Congress >> choosing the president. (And maybe the president only serving as long as >> they had majority backing in the Congress.) >> >> Also, another wrinkle on how the US president is chosen. They must first >> go through their party choosing them. And that often involves popular >> elections in primaries (usually limited to party members). I bring this up >> because Trump didn?t just go straight to the Electoral College. He was >> vetted via a nomination process that did involve a popular vote (amongst >> his party members in most places) at some points. Though later on what >> happens is delegates vote in a convention. >> >> I?m no saying this because I agree with either having Trump in office, >> with the specific presidential election process, or with having a >> president. (Clinton, by the way, went through a similar but slightly >> different process mainly because of superdelegates.) >> > > Yes, but they don't directly elect the leader, so that's similar to the > Electoral College in the US: the voters elect the electors and the electors > choose the president. Thus, John Clark was wrong here, in my understanding > about how Merkel became and remains chancellor. > > I do agree, though, that the parliamentary approach is a bit more > responsive since there can be things like votes of confidence pretty much > whenever parliament is in session. In the US, once the president is > elected, it's very hard to remove them from office -- something anyone can > see with the current president. > > By the way, though I'm an anarchist, I've often told my non-anarchist > friends that I believe a parliamentary system like the UK's might be better > in the US than the presidential one -- better at restraining executive > power. It wouldn't be foolproof, but it would likely discipline the > executive better than the current system. Of course, it might not given how > the Congress here, over the decades, has basically handed presidents ever > more power. No reason that can't happen with slightly different political > systems -- and the UK and Germany aren't known for having weak prime > ministers. (Part of the problem here is thinking that constitutional > restraints are real restraints. In effect, here the 1789 Constitution > doesn't much control the real power because its restraints don't match the > real power relationships. For instance, separation of powers doesn't mean > much if one faction controls enough of the supposedly separate powers -- as > now the presidency and the federal courts are dominated by the GOP. You'd > want a court that isn't allied with the branch it's supposed to restrain, > no?) > Anarchism is interesting, because there are both pro-capitalists and anti-capitalists anarchists, each group claiming that anarchism would lead to the ideal capitalist or communist system. -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue May 5 03:58:43 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 20:58:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: References: <84B74946-D4B3-4280-88DD-2B9E9500F072@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00b101d62291$78979290$69c6b7b0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat >?Anarchism is interesting, because there are both pro-capitalists and anti-capitalists anarchists, each group claiming that anarchism would lead to the ideal capitalist or communist system. -- Stathis Papaioannou There is a brand of anarchism which leads to communism? That goes against my intuition. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Tue May 5 04:08:00 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 14:08:00 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: <00b101d62291$78979290$69c6b7b0$@rainier66.com> References: <84B74946-D4B3-4280-88DD-2B9E9500F072@gmail.com> <00b101d62291$78979290$69c6b7b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 14:00, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > > > > >?Anarchism is interesting, because there are both pro-capitalists and > anti-capitalists anarchists, each group claiming that anarchism would lead > to the ideal capitalist or communist system. > > -- > > Stathis Papaioannou > > > > > > There is a brand of anarchism which leads to communism? That goes against > my intuition. > Yes, historically most anarchists have been anti-capitalist, since capital and government can both be used to control peoples' lives. Anarchists were active early on in the Russian revolution, though later they were persecuted by the Bolsheviks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_schools_of_thought -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue May 5 05:42:36 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 01:42:36 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Boltzmann brains In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 7:26 AM Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > All together, this is overall such a hugely low probalistic occurance that > is fun to think about but seems rather unlikely, at least to me. > > IMHO, I think this is why biology is so different from physics - it is > biological processes that drive the organization of molecules into such > ordered structures, and these processes follow the harsh and nasty laws of > evolution, increasing the overall infomation held in such colllections of > interdependant molecules, far beyond what could be held or acted upon via > simple physically probable interactions that randomly occur in the > universe. > ### Indeed, some physicists tend to approach biological processes with inappropriate ideas. You have probably heard creationists repeating what they heard from a physicist about even a single hemoglobin molecule being so complicated that it would take 10e165 years to create it randomly (or some other insane number). Of course, we biology nerds know that evolution is not random, it's iteratively selective and randomized, which is completely different from just random picking of possibilities out of the bucket of the possible. The physicists who came up with the Boltzmann brain idea failed to differentiate between random and evolutionary processes. They said "a galaxy is much bigger than a brain, so it must take much more random movement of molecules to create a galaxy than a brain", assuming that the likelihood of an object randomly coming into existence is more or less an inverse function of the number of atoms in that object. But we know that neither galaxies nor brains come into existence randomly, in fact both are created according to natural law, and their respective densities per cubic gazillion of light years are dictated by the specifics of that law, not by their sizes. Wolfram's hypergraphs provide more detail on the ability of simple iterative mathematical processes to generate seemingly random but still highly structured, lawful entities. Physicist will need to greatly refine their ideas about physical randomness if they follow his lead. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue May 5 05:53:52 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 01:53:52 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Boltzmann brains In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 11:31 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > We have infinity to work with if Hugh Everett's Many Worlds interpretation > of Quantum Mechanics is correct, or if Eternal Inflation is right, and if > the inflationary model of the Big Bang is right then Eternal Inflation > probably is too. And even if none of that is true and the universe is > finite in the past dimension it could still have a infinite eternal future. > ### For the Boltzmann brain idea to be a paradox you need to consider not so much the size of the universe (or multiverse), as the density of biological vs Boltzmann brains per unit of volume. Using a simplistic approach, biological brains that are a part of larger entities (such as galaxies) should be much less common per unit of volume, than Boltzmann brains, since the former require many more atoms to come together. As I mentioned elsewhere, the resolution of the paradox is that galaxies and biological brains (but not Boltzmann brains) are created by physical law, not randomly, so their density is dictated by physical law and cannot be easily simplistically deduced from the number of moving parts inside them. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue May 5 06:10:54 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 02:10:54 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Subject: Boltzmann brains In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 10:30 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > In this case, "brains just randomly forming and miserably and almost > immediately expiring somewhere in the universe should outnumber galaxies > randomly forming in that universe" seems to be the error. Specifically, > ignoring the different time scales needed for construction (and its effects > on the likelihood of random assembly) between extremely short-lived > entities that would need near-instant formation - brains forming and almost > immediately expiring - versus extremely long lived entities that can take > much longer to assemble - galaxies. > ### Indeed, biological brains are created by physical law, while Boltzmann brains are created in a physicist's imagination. Wolfram's mathematico-physical process creates expanses of space with different properties, in the right areas of space galaxies form because the local physical laws make it happen, then in parts of galaxies planets evolve life, because the local chemical conditions make it happen, and then some lifeforms evolve brains, because the local biological conditions (still a consequence of the underlying mathematico-physical process) make it so. The Boltzmann brain paradox only exists because some physicists disregarded the lawful nature of our world and ran with simplistic ideas about randomness. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue May 5 06:18:53 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 02:18:53 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) In-Reply-To: <5a74bf24-ab7d-a3ac-badf-f1fa37b86fd7@zaiboc.net> References: <5a74bf24-ab7d-a3ac-badf-f1fa37b86fd7@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 5:22 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 03/05/2020 19:42, Re Rose wrote: > > IMHO, I think whole-body cryopreservation is far better than > neuropreservation as I believe the body is a system and you need all of it. > Thus, I have issues with uploading > > > The one doesn't follow from the other, even if it is true (which I don't > think, but that's a separate argument). > ### It's also worth mentioning that neuropreservation allows for a much faster cooling rate that leads to vitrification of the tissue and prevents ice crystal formation and subsequent damage. Therefore, as far as we can tell, the brains so preserved are much less likely to be damaged than brains preserved with the body attached. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Tue May 5 06:20:47 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 16:20:47 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Boltzmann brains In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 15:55, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 11:31 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> We have infinity to work with if Hugh Everett's Many Worlds >> interpretation of Quantum Mechanics is correct, or if Eternal Inflation is >> right, and if the inflationary model of the Big Bang is right then Eternal >> Inflation probably is too. And even if none of that is true and the >> universe is finite in the past dimension it could still have a infinite >> eternal future. >> > > ### For the Boltzmann brain idea to be a paradox you need to consider not > so much the size of the universe (or multiverse), as the density of > biological vs Boltzmann brains per unit of volume. Using a simplistic > approach, biological brains that are a part of larger entities (such as > galaxies) should be much less common per unit of volume, than Boltzmann > brains, since the former require many more atoms to come together. > > As I mentioned elsewhere, the resolution of the paradox is that galaxies > and biological brains (but not Boltzmann brains) are created by physical > law, not randomly, so their density is dictated by physical law and cannot > be easily simplistically deduced from the number of moving parts inside > them. > It could be that, as you say, regular brains are more likely than Boltzmann brains, but the problem is that in some cosmological models Boltzmann brains are more likely. These cosmological models otherwise seem reasonable; should they be rejected on the grounds that Boltzmann brains are absurd? > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Tue May 5 06:25:33 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 08:25:33 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Subject: Boltzmann brains In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This essay that I wrote a couple of years ago seems relevant to this discussion: https://turingchurch.net/does-god-emerge-from-boltzmann-brains-in-the-fabric-of-reality-7583c3dac485 On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 8:12 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 10:30 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> >> In this case, "brains just randomly forming and miserably and almost immediately expiring somewhere in the universe should outnumber galaxies randomly forming in that universe" seems to be the error. Specifically, ignoring the different time scales needed for construction (and its effects on the likelihood of random assembly) between extremely short-lived entities that would need near-instant formation - brains forming and almost immediately expiring - versus extremely long lived entities that can take much longer to assemble - galaxies. > > > ### Indeed, biological brains are created by physical law, while Boltzmann brains are created in a physicist's imagination. > > Wolfram's mathematico-physical process creates expanses of space with different properties, in the right areas of space galaxies form because the local physical laws make it happen, then in parts of galaxies planets evolve life, because the local chemical conditions make it happen, and then some lifeforms evolve brains, because the local biological conditions (still a consequence of the underlying mathematico-physical process) make it so. > > The Boltzmann brain paradox only exists because some physicists disregarded the lawful nature of our world and ran with simplistic ideas about randomness. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue May 5 06:33:09 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 02:33:09 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Boltzmann brains In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 2:21 AM Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > > > On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 15:55, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 11:31 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> We have infinity to work with if Hugh Everett's Many Worlds >>> interpretation of Quantum Mechanics is correct, or if Eternal Inflation is >>> right, and if the inflationary model of the Big Bang is right then Eternal >>> Inflation probably is too. And even if none of that is true and the >>> universe is finite in the past dimension it could still have a infinite >>> eternal future. >>> >> >> ### For the Boltzmann brain idea to be a paradox you need to consider not >> so much the size of the universe (or multiverse), as the density of >> biological vs Boltzmann brains per unit of volume. Using a simplistic >> approach, biological brains that are a part of larger entities (such as >> galaxies) should be much less common per unit of volume, than Boltzmann >> brains, since the former require many more atoms to come together. >> >> As I mentioned elsewhere, the resolution of the paradox is that galaxies >> and biological brains (but not Boltzmann brains) are created by physical >> law, not randomly, so their density is dictated by physical law and cannot >> be easily simplistically deduced from the number of moving parts inside >> them. >> > > It could be that, as you say, regular brains are more likely than > Boltzmann brains, but the problem is that in some cosmological models > Boltzmann brains are more likely. These cosmological models otherwise seem > reasonable; should they be rejected on the grounds that Boltzmann brains > are absurd? > >> > ### Which cosmological models make Boltzmann brains more likely, and how? Rafa; -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue May 5 06:51:25 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 02:51:25 -0400 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 9:50 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > I disagree with there being two 'healthy, adaptive genders.' That's > sneaking in basically religious morality with, of course, a > pseudo-biological rationale, into these categories. Again, I ask you look > over the work of folks like Anne Fausto-Sterling and Cordelia Fine. > ### Do you have an insight into my motivations that I don't have? As I mentioned many times on this list in the last 25 years, I am an atheist, so please don't impute that I am "sneaking" and using a "pseudo-biological" approach. Being gay or trans significantly interferes with one's ability to create and maintain stable, child-rearing families. This is a simple biological and statistical fact. Dismissing this fact as "religious morality with pseudo-biological rationale" doesn't make it go away. That's the thing with facts, they don't go away even if you call them bad names. ----------------------------- So, they say that a psychologically disturbed man or a malingering man may > claim > > himself to be a woman and we, normal people, are obliged to respect his > claims. > > > Personally knowing and working with many people who identify as trans, I > can attest that they aren't malingerers. I'm wondering where you get that > from. > ### As you quoted above, disturbed or malingering. I guess you met the disturbed ones. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue May 5 06:55:07 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 23:55:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That definition would fail for the original usage ? given that the Left then was against the governing king. It also doesn?t fit examples of Left anti-authoritarians and of Leftists who work for community empowerment. The Right tends to worship hierarchy, tradition, and obedience. That said, many people are non-ideological or mixed. Often what is seen in the US and Europe is self-identifies Leftists adopting Right methods ? compulsion, hierarchy, and unreason. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst > On May 4, 2020, at 6:58 PM, Darin Sunley via extropy-chat wrote: > ? > I read a good definition for "left" and "right" that I think holds for both the historical and modern cases. > > The "left" trusts the government more than their neighbors, especially their "right" neighbors. > > The "right" trusts their neighbors, even their "left" neighbors, more than the government. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue May 5 07:00:16 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 00:00:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <770E9436-56AC-4906-BC1D-C1E30262F7E7@gmail.com> On May 4, 2020, at 8:47 PM, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat wrote: > Anarchism is interesting, because there are both pro-capitalists and anti-capitalists anarchists, each group claiming that anarchism would lead to the ideal capitalist or communist system. > > -- > Stathis Papaioannou There are also _free market_ anarchists who are anti-capitalist. See, e.g., the book: https://store.c4ss.org/index.php/product/markets-not-capitalism/ Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Tue May 5 07:11:21 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 09:11:21 +0200 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Often what is seen in the US and Europe is self-identifies Leftists adopting Right methods ? compulsion, hierarchy, and unreason." - well said! On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 9:01 AM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: > > That definition would fail for the original usage ? given that the Left then was against the governing king. It also doesn?t fit examples of Left anti-authoritarians and of Leftists who work for community empowerment. > > The Right tends to worship hierarchy, tradition, and obedience. > > That said, many people are non-ideological or mixed. Often what is seen in the US and Europe is self-identifies Leftists adopting Right methods ? compulsion, hierarchy, and unreason. > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books at: > > http://author.to/DanUst > > > On May 4, 2020, at 6:58 PM, Darin Sunley via extropy-chat wrote: > ? > > I read a good definition for "left" and "right" that I think holds for both the historical and modern cases. > > The "left" trusts the government more than their neighbors, especially their "right" neighbors. > > The "right" trusts their neighbors, even their "left" neighbors, more than the government. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From stathisp at gmail.com Tue May 5 08:21:31 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 18:21:31 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Boltzmann brains In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 16:47, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 2:21 AM Stathis Papaioannou > wrote: > >> >> >> On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 15:55, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 11:31 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> We have infinity to work with if Hugh Everett's Many Worlds >>>> interpretation of Quantum Mechanics is correct, or if Eternal Inflation is >>>> right, and if the inflationary model of the Big Bang is right then Eternal >>>> Inflation probably is too. And even if none of that is true and the >>>> universe is finite in the past dimension it could still have a infinite >>>> eternal future. >>>> >>> >>> ### For the Boltzmann brain idea to be a paradox you need to consider >>> not so much the size of the universe (or multiverse), as the density of >>> biological vs Boltzmann brains per unit of volume. Using a simplistic >>> approach, biological brains that are a part of larger entities (such as >>> galaxies) should be much less common per unit of volume, than Boltzmann >>> brains, since the former require many more atoms to come together. >>> >>> As I mentioned elsewhere, the resolution of the paradox is that galaxies >>> and biological brains (but not Boltzmann brains) are created by physical >>> law, not randomly, so their density is dictated by physical law and cannot >>> be easily simplistically deduced from the number of moving parts inside >>> them. >>> >> >> It could be that, as you say, regular brains are more likely than >> Boltzmann brains, but the problem is that in some cosmological models >> Boltzmann brains are more likely. These cosmological models otherwise seem >> reasonable; should they be rejected on the grounds that Boltzmann brains >> are absurd? >> >>> >> ### Which cosmological models make Boltzmann brains more likely, and how? > Here is a paper co-authored by several eminent cosmologists: ?The simplest interpretation of the observed accelerating expansion of the universe is that it is driven by a constant vacuum energy density ??, which is about three times greater than the present density of nonrelativistic matter. While ordinary matter becomes more dilute as the universe expands, the vacuum energy density remains the same, and in another ten billion years or so the universe will be completely dominated by vacuum energy. The subsequent evolution of the universe is accurately described as de Sitter space. It was shown by Gibbons and Hawking [1] that an observer in de Sitter space would detect thermal radiation with a characteristic temperature TdS = H?/2?, where H? =??8?G?? (1) 3 is the de Sitter Hubble expansion rate. For the observed value of ??, the de Sitter temperature is extremely low, TdS = 2.3 ? 10?30 K. Nevertheless, complex structures will occasionally emerge from the vacuum as quantum fluctuations, at a small but nonzero rate per unit space-time volume. An intelligent observer, like a human, could be one such structure. Or, short of a complete observer, a disembodied brain may fluctuate into existence, with a pattern of neuron firings creating a perception of be- ing on Earth and, for example, observing the cosmic mi- crowave background radiation. Such freak observers are collectively referred to as ?Boltzmann brains? [2, 3]. Of course, the nucleation rate ?BB of Boltzmann brains is extremely small, its magnitude depending on how one defines a Boltzmann brain. The important point, however, is that ?BB is always nonzero. De Sitter space is eternal to the future. Thus, if the accelerating expansion of the universe is truly driven by the energy density of a stable vacuum state, then Boltzmann brains will eventually outnumber normal observers, no matter how small the value of ?BB [4, 7, 5, 8, 9] might be. https://arxiv.org/pdf/0808.3778.pdf There are other models, such as eternal inflation, where Boltzmann brains may predominate. Most physicists see it as a problem with their theories, but on its own it doesn?t seem to be enough to dismiss a theory, unlike, say, an astronomical prediction that turns out to be wrong. -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue May 5 09:40:08 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 05:40:08 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Evolved Complexity In-Reply-To: <471287573.878020.1588638559764@mail.yahoo.com> References: <7208fc42-ac12-afad-bac6-56801ef788f9@zaiboc.net> <471287573.878020.1588638559764@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 8:31 PM The Avantguardian via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: Leave it to Wolfram to try to brute force a theory of everything. I have > been looking over his website but I can't seem to find where he mentions > specific figures like the 10^35 parts to an electron. I am a little > skeptical of his claims to be honest. To say that the entire universe could > arise from a simple recursive rule that adds nodes and edges to a > hypergraph sounds a little bit like saying that 42 is the answer to > everything. And we certainly can't experimentally probe distances that are > smaller relative to a Planck length than the Planck length is to us. With > our best supercomputer, we can't even iterate candidate rules 10^35 times > within the age of the universe in order to see if we can simulate an > electron. His theory is not experimentally testable and is not practical to > compute with modern hardware. > --------------------------- > ### See here: "One feature of our models is that there should be a ?quantum of mass??a discrete amount that all masses, for example of particles, are multiples of. With our estimate for the elementary length, this quantum of mass would be small, perhaps 10?30, or 1036 times smaller than the mass of the electron." 42 is just a number in Douglas Adams' imagination. Wolfram on the other hand proposes a research program into the mathematics of hypergraphs that so far produced intriguing results, so it's certainly more than just idle musings. It's true that at present there are significant computational obstacles to precisely following a hypergraph's evolution until you reach realms accessible to experiments but that's not a reason to reject the idea. There is structure to the space of rules, as he mentions in his introduction, so who knows, maybe there will be shortcuts. Also, the idea of "oligons" as candidate dark matter could help bring the program closer to being testable. > ------------------------------------- > > Where do the moving parts come from one? It seems like he is saying that > you can start with platonic bits and get matter particles out of them after > an insane number of iterations. I don't see how that is possible by > mathematical induction. Or is he positing some sort of ur-particle more > fundamental that the standard model of which quarks and electrons are built > and that his nodes and edges represent? > ### Well, he says the world is made of math, and that would be much more fundamental than the Standard Model. His ur-particle would be a graph, and the passage of time is defined by a simple rule applied to the graph, weaving both space *and* matter out of that ur-particle. Since there is an infinity of graphs and rules and their combinations, there is an infinity of deterministic universes created from such entities, with infinite strands of time issuing from each graph thanks to different rules, and infinite parallel worlds following each time dimension given different starting graphs. That's trivial - but the interesting part is that he is finding structures that have parallels to physics and "naturally" produce some high-level physical concepts even at the basic level he is investigating. A big difference from many other physical theories here is that the hypergraphs create both space and matter, rather than having objects (particles) play out against a background of pre-existing space. > -------------------------------- > > I have to admit that Wolfram's theory seems superficially similar to my > recent work on what I call "synergistic systems" or systems comprised of > simpler components that display emergent properties that the individual > parts themselves do not have. I have been mathematically analyzing how the > whole can be greater than the sum of the parts as it were. An example > application for my theory is deriving a mathematical description of why > water is wet or how cells can live while composed of unliving molecules. > The main similarity between our theories is that we both use hypergraphs > but his approach is recursive and my approach is more closed-form and > holistic. I am trying to explain how complex systems work and not > necessarily trying to be "fundamental". For example, my theory assumes > quantum mechanics instead of trying to derive it from simpler theory. > ### Give him a call! -------------------------- > > His description of time is problematic. It seems to assume a sort of > universal time that would violate GR. How do you resolve conflicts between > hypergraph elements as to which came first in temporal order and so would > be able to have the rule applied to them to generate the other? > > Does F(chicken) = egg or F(egg) = chicken? > ### The rule is applied to the parent hypergraphs in all possible ways to generate all possible daughter graphs (but at each step the number of entities created is finite, since we are talking about a finite starting graph and a finite rule). He mentions that some of his hypergraphs replicate GR, he defines spacelike and timelike directions in the graphs, but of course as a non-physicist I can't visualize it in enough detail. --------------------------- > It is an interesting idea, I just think it gets a little hand wavy about > at which step the bit becomes an it. Of course a Platonic modal realist > might say that all self-consistent maths correspond to the laws of physics > in some universe somewhere but then how did those laws get sorted from the > Platonic commons to a universe near you? Also, how does pure determinism > simulate quantum randomness? Or does a single simple rule generate ALL > possible universes? ### Well, the anthropic principle would sort us out to the universes that make us possible. Since there is an infinity of conceivable rules, there is an infinity of independent hypergraph-universes created by such rules, thus it takes an infinity of rules to create all possible universes. I am a non-physicist and the understanding of quantum randomness eludes me completely but Wolfram does mention that his hypergraphs give rise to entanglement and some other features of quantum physics, like the path integral. Since you are the physicist here - How about you read Wolfram et al. accompanying two 60 page technical articles and give us peer-review? Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue May 5 10:31:15 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 06:31:15 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) In-Reply-To: <5a74bf24-ab7d-a3ac-badf-f1fa37b86fd7@zaiboc.net> References: <5a74bf24-ab7d-a3ac-badf-f1fa37b86fd7@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 5:22 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *> Because a body is much simpler than a brain, that too can be easily > emulated - more easily than a brain, * > You wouldn't even need to emulate everything in the brain because most of what a neuron does is routine metabolic activity needed just to stay alive that is no different from that a skin or kidney cell does. > > So, accepting that we'll want to emulate a body as well as a brain, do > we actually need a real body to record and upload? I doubt it. It follows > from the fact that a body is simpler, that we will be able to easily create > a virtual body from existing data about human bodies, > Not to mention the fact that the entire personal genome of the patient would also be recorded. > > *so no need to preserve an actual body* > Science can find no difference between an atom of carbon in your body and an atom of carbon in mine, the only difference between you and me is how those atoms are arranged. So if you could preserve that arrangement information there would be no need to even preserve the brain, but our current technology isn't good enough to be able to do that, so at least for the time being we still need the liquid nitrogen. > *change or damage or remove even a tiny bit of your brain, and you have a different person, or at least a different personality.* Not if the removed part of your brain is replaced with something identical, and that is actually what is happening every day of our lives, atoms are constantly shifting in and out of our brains and bodies; my brain is made of last years mashed potatoes. > > *> Ergo, the brain is vastly more important than the body to get exactly > right (and thus, to preserve).* > Yes. * > I'm pretty confident that a generic body model would be quite > sufficient for the purposes of an upload, especially as you could modify it > yourself afterward, to your own requirements (just in case you decided that > your appendectomy scar or missing toe was somehow essential to your > personality).* > Good point. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue May 5 10:37:31 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 06:37:31 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) In-Reply-To: References: <5a74bf24-ab7d-a3ac-badf-f1fa37b86fd7@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 2:26 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> ### It's also worth mentioning that neuropreservation allows for a much > faster cooling rate that leads to vitrification of the tissue and prevents > ice crystal formation and subsequent damage. Therefore, as far as we can > tell, the brains so preserved are much less likely to be damaged than > brains preserved with the body attached. * > Yes, and if in the coming decades there was an emergency situation of some sort and Alcor had to quickly relocate it would be much easier to move a frozen brain than a frozen body and I wouldn't want to be left behind. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue May 5 11:14:59 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 07:14:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 9:59 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *The "right" trusts their neighbors, even their "left" neighbors, more than > the government.* If they don't trust government then why are the right the super-patriots who literally hug and kiss the flag and look like they're about to hump it? Content may not be appropriate for younger viewers *The "left" trusts the government more than their neighbors, especially > their "right" neighbors.* A leftist is a rightist who got drafted. A rightist is a leftist who got mugged. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rocket at earthlight.com Tue May 5 12:03:43 2020 From: rocket at earthlight.com (Re Rose) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 08:03:43 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) Message-ID: Agreed, it's easier to get faster cooling rates (although that's not always better, depending on the physical properties of the tissue and the ability to homogeneously cool without causing stress fractiures...) with smaller masses, such as brain vs. whole body. So in that sense a brain alone is more likely to be cooled and preserved intact, than a whole body. But I believe the whole body is necessary for a re-animation experience that will recover the essential "you". I realize this is a highly controversial topic. I saw other posts here saying inclusion of hormonal organs that communicate with the brain would be sufficient as that information could also be preserved and uploaded in future technoligoes. So, for example, torso preservations were proposed. I don't think this will solve the essential problem. I think any upload is problematic. I believe there are two problems that will be really hard to solve: first, preserving the cyclic, dynamical environment of non-neural information available in the body such as hormonal cycles or feedback from non-neural neurotransmitters (such as from your gut) is difficult, with no solution on the horizon. Second, your cortex is specifically wired to accomodate your body, with all its quirks, balances, habits, accomodations, skillz, and tics. Every human body is different and each body's cortex learns the characteristics of that body. While we know the cortex is nearly infinitely able to accomodate and learn, learning an entirely new corporeal system may not only overwhelm it, but the being that emerges after this process is highly likely to not be "you". I'm a participant in cryonics research because I want to be reanimated as myself. I'm not so interested in contributing a brain pattern that took me my whole life to create (and that I like very much!!) so be uploaded to some other agent who can use it to wire-up a version based on me that is so foreign that I'm not really there. IMHO, YMMV ~! Regina PS - what would be *really* nice is to save an uploaded copy of the brain along with the crypreserved body so that any damage to the information in the brain due to the cryopreservation process can be repaired using the upload as a backup. You would have your original body, complete with all its information, plus a brain backup for repair of any neuronal information loss. Yay! Sign me up, please -R --------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 02:18:53 -0400 From: Rafal Smigrodzki To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 5:22 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 03/05/2020 19:42, Re Rose wrote: > > IMHO, I think whole-body cryopreservation is far better than > neuropreservation as I believe the body is a system and you need all of it. > Thus, I have issues with uploading > > > The one doesn't follow from the other, even if it is true (which I don't > think, but that's a separate argument). > ### It's also worth mentioning that neuropreservation allows for a much faster cooling rate that leads to vitrification of the tissue and prevents ice crystal formation and subsequent damage. Therefore, as far as we can tell, the brains so preserved are much less likely to be damaged than brains preserved with the body attached. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue May 5 12:41:34 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 05:41:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 9:59 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat > wrote: The "right" trusts their neighbors, even their "left" neighbors, more than the government. >?If they don't trust government then why are the right the super-patriots who literally hug and kiss the flag and look like they're about to hump it? Content may not be appropriate for younger viewers They don?t. That is a cartoon version of rightists. Your video was a politician clowning. The guy in the picture isn?t a right-winger by far. Perhaps you imagine an intentionally-distorted version of rightists. The "left" trusts the government more than their neighbors, especially their "right" neighbors. >?A leftist is a rightist who got drafted? If so, we would be running out of leftists. The draft in the US ended nearly 50 yrs ago. The youngest draftees would be approaching the end of a typical life-expectancy. >?A rightist is a leftist who got mugged. John K Clark If so, we would be running short of rightists. As watches have become cheap, credit cards easy to trace and cell phones even easier to trace, mugging has dwindled to nearly nothing. That is a crime which has mostly disappeared. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue May 5 13:25:26 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 09:25:26 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 8:07 AM Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Agreed, it's easier to get faster cooling rates (although that's not > always better, depending on the physical properties of the tissue and the > ability to homogeneously cool without causing stress fractiures...)* > I don't think cracks is a major problem in cryonics because with a clean crack it should be pretty obvious what part went where before the crack formed and so could be repaired. I'm much more worried about the liquid in the brain undergoing chaotic turbulence as it freezes because if it does then very small differences in initial conditions could lead to huge differences in outcome; but fortunately most indications are the flow would be Laminar, at least when the cryopreservation is done under ideal conditions. *> I think any upload is problematic. I believe there are two problems that > will be really hard to solve: first, preserving the cyclic, dynamical > environment of non-neural information available in the body such as > hormonal cycles or feedback from non-neural neurotransmitters (such as from > your gut) is difficult, with no solution on the horizon.* > Why on earth would emulating hormones be especially difficult? Hormone signals are very slow, much less than one meter per second; the signals in a AI move at 300,000,000 meters a second. The Shannon information content is small, there are only about 200 hormones in the human body. And Hormone signals move by random diffusion and blood circulation so their target is not very specific. If your job is delivering packages and the packages are very small, and your boss will be satisfied if you just deliver them to the correct continent, and you have until the start of the next millennium to do it, then you don't have a very demanding job. > *> Second, your cortex is specifically wired to accomodate your body, with > all its quirks, balances, habits, accomodations, skillz, and tics. Every > human body is different* > The cortex is also wired to learn new things. Experiments show that even when people wear glasses that make everything look upside down they soon learn to get used to it and perform normally. The same was true for glasses that invert left and right, one subject safely road his motorcycle through a crowded city with no problem. We quickly adjust to seeing everything upside-down John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue May 5 13:47:42 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 09:47:42 -0400 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 8:44 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >>?If they don't trust government then why are the right the >> super-patriots who literally hug and kiss the flag and look like they're >> about to hump it? >> >> Content may not be appropriate for younger viewers >> > > > > *> They don?t. That is a cartoon version of rightists. Your video was a > politician clowning. The guy in the picture isn?t a right-winger by far. * > Then why was the political clown performing his antics at the *Conservative *Political Action Conference? And why were the *conservative* clowns in the audience cheering mindlessly at the buffoonish politician? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue May 5 14:43:58 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 07:43:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat > They don?t. That is a cartoon version of rightists. Your video was a politician clowning. The guy in the picture isn?t a right-winger by far. >?Then why was the political clown performing his antics at the Conservative Political Action Conference? And why were the conservative clowns in the audience cheering mindlessly at the buffoonish politician? John K Clark He knows how to appeal to right wingers. I don?t see anything a bit right wing about how the US government is running. Do you? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue May 5 15:26:34 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 10:26:34 -0500 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: He knows how to appeal to right wingers. I don?t see anything a bit right wing about how the US government is running. Do you? spike *Well now there's an interesting question. Let's lay aside the issue of money and debt for the nonce. If it's not right wing, it's either left wing or a combination. Which is it? What has come out of D.C.in the last couple of years that we can point to and say conservative, or liberal? Trump's base is red, so what's red that he has done or Congress has done? If Spike is right, then the red base hasn't gotten what it wanted and should be unhappy with T.* *bill w* On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 9:46 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > > *> **They don?t. That is a cartoon version of rightists. Your video was > a politician clowning. The guy in the picture isn?t a right-winger by > far. * > > > > >?Then why was the political clown performing his antics at the *Conservative > *Political Action Conference? And why were the *conservative* clowns in > the audience cheering mindlessly at the buffoonish politician? > > > > John K Clark > > > > > > > > He knows how to appeal to right wingers. I don?t see anything a bit right > wing about how the US government is running. Do you? > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue May 5 15:37:57 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 11:37:57 -0400 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I don't have an interest in getting too deep down this rabbit hole, but I do agree that in general Trump is not really a classical Republican, let alone right wing on many issues. That said, I can give you an easy answer on why he is tolerated by SOME real conservatives. He has appointed a ton of judges including SCOTUS ones, and has consistently sided with conservatives on the issues of abortion and religion. This is enough for a lot of them under the circumstances. Trump's actual base is a lot more complicated to pin down tough. In terms of spending, both parties are now very similar and have been for a very long time. On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 11:28 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > He knows how to appeal to right wingers. I don?t see anything a bit right > wing about how the US government is running. Do you? > > > > spike > > > *Well now there's an interesting question. Let's lay aside the issue of > money and debt for the nonce. If it's not right wing, it's either left > wing or a combination. Which is it? What has come out of D.C.in > the last couple of years that we can point to and say > conservative, or liberal? Trump's base is red, so what's red that he has > done or Congress has done? If Spike is right, then the red base hasn't > gotten what it wanted and should be unhappy with T.* > > > *bill w* > > On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 9:46 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> > *On Behalf Of *John Clark via extropy-chat >> >> *> **They don?t. That is a cartoon version of rightists. Your video >> was a politician clowning. The guy in the picture isn?t a right-winger by >> far. * >> >> >> >> >?Then why was the political clown performing his antics at the *Conservative >> *Political Action Conference? And why were the *conservative* clowns in >> the audience cheering mindlessly at the buffoonish politician? >> >> >> >> John K Clark >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> He knows how to appeal to right wingers. I don?t see anything a bit >> right wing about how the US government is running. Do you? >> >> >> >> spike >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Tue May 5 15:53:11 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 09:53:11 -0600 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: This. A lot of Trump's "base" knows he is, by historical standards, largely unqualified to be President and, by most standards, a terrible person on top of that, but see the utilitarian calculus as so stark that, if he can make a meaningful dent in the US's abortion rates [as he seems on track to do], as well as not start a major war, /literally/ nothing else he does matters. On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 9:40 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I don't have an interest in getting too deep down this rabbit hole, but I > do agree that in general Trump is not really a classical Republican, let > alone right wing on many issues. That said, I can give you an easy answer > on why he is tolerated by SOME real conservatives. He has appointed a ton > of judges including SCOTUS ones, and has consistently sided with > conservatives on the issues of abortion and religion. This is enough for > a lot of them under the circumstances. Trump's actual base is a lot more > complicated to pin down tough. > > In terms of spending, both parties are now very similar and have been for > a very long time. > > On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 11:28 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> He knows how to appeal to right wingers. I don?t see anything a bit >> right wing about how the US government is running. Do you? >> >> >> >> spike >> >> >> *Well now there's an interesting question. Let's lay aside the issue of >> money and debt for the nonce. If it's not right wing, it's either left >> wing or a combination. Which is it? What has come out of D.C.in >> the last couple of years that we can point to and say >> conservative, or liberal? Trump's base is red, so what's red that he has >> done or Congress has done? If Spike is right, then the red base hasn't >> gotten what it wanted and should be unhappy with T.* >> >> >> *bill w* >> >> On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 9:46 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > *On Behalf Of *John Clark via extropy-chat >>> >>> *> **They don?t. That is a cartoon version of rightists. Your video >>> was a politician clowning. The guy in the picture isn?t a right-winger by >>> far. * >>> >>> >>> >>> >?Then why was the political clown performing his antics at the *Conservative >>> *Political Action Conference? And why were the *conservative* clowns in >>> the audience cheering mindlessly at the buffoonish politician? >>> >>> >>> >>> John K Clark >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> He knows how to appeal to right wingers. I don?t see anything a bit >>> right wing about how the US government is running. Do you? >>> >>> >>> >>> spike >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Tue May 5 16:54:37 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 17:54:37 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 05/05/2020 01:29, Adrian Tymes wrote: > But in practice, real options presented today for cryopreservation > make that a true dichotomy.? For example, as of today, Alcor offers to > preserve just the head or the entire body; they do not offer any "in > between" option.? Every other cryonics service I've seen, either > offers the same choice or only offers one or the other option.? So > there is a real, practical choice - again, in terms of what is > available today - between "just the head" and "the entire body".? > Since no other options are available today, no other options merit > consideration for someone facing cryopreservation today.? Other > options might be considered for a future service, if there is a > realistic chance that some cryopreservation service might someday > offer other options. Good point. Alcor do, though keep notes on each patient, so people can make their wishes known re. resurrections conditions, etc. Perhaps the endocrine data could be part of that? It would be up to the patient, not Alcor to produce the data, and include it in the notes. I'm thinking that some blood analysis should be sufficient, rather than a detailed examination of the endocrine glands. In any event, the existence of the neuro-only option shows that many people think the brain alone will contain the essential upload data, and the rest, apart from a scarce few, only want full-body preservation because they want their original body, in working order, afterwards, not because they want a 'more accurate' upload. I'm confident that omitting data from the original body won't have any significant effect on an uploaded mind. Apart from vague statements about the body contributing to our consciousness, or our minds 'extending into' the body, I've not heard of any evidence, or convincing theory, to the contrary. -- Ben Zaiboc From spike at rainier66.com Tue May 5 16:56:23 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 09:56:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat >?In terms of spending, both parties are now very similar and have been for a very long time? Dylan Ja. I haven?t been able to tell them apart for over 30 years. The two mainstream parties in the US have marched lockstep to burying the US into a morass of debt from which extrication is impossible. In light of that, why would we care about the usual stuff, religion, immigration, guns and abortion? That soaring debt is a ticking time bomb. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue May 5 17:16:19 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 10:16:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <016601d62300$e4eedd80$aecc9880$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] antiscience from both sides He knows how to appeal to right wingers. I don?t see anything a bit right wing about how the US government is running. Do you? spike >?Well now there's an interesting question. Let's lay aside the issue of money and debt for the nonce?bill w Hmmm? Lay aside the one huge and growing problem which has been looming over the world, and the US in particular, for so long. BillW, the rest of the stuff is sound and fury, signifying nothing. All the usual left/right noise we hear really is meaningless: abortion and guns. Neither of those things are going to change at the national level. There has been so much pressure, so much wasted effort for so many decades, my entire life, and the ball hasn?t moved. It will not in my son?s lifetime. However? The US, and governments all over the world, have taken an attitude that national debt can grow at a modest steady pace of 2-3 percent a year without harm, since typically economies grow at that rate, or fast. Sure, OK. However? What happens if suddenly they don?t? What happens if a black swan event causes growth to go 30 percent negative in one year? And what if that black swan event prevents an economy to snapping right back to where it was? What happens if governments must quietly discontinue nearly everything they were previously doing, and focus almost entirely on debt management? In light of that question, I don?t see any reason to call the current US government right or left, or any particular leader right or left. I don?t even see that this issue has a clear right/left split (do you?) which is perhaps why it doesn?t get addressed much. In light of that question, which of these other issues are of any real significance? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Tue May 5 17:20:42 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 11:20:42 -0600 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: There's an argument for government debt analogous to the Doomsday Argument. Government debt is essentially borrowing against future real productivity productivity. Either the US will be physically productive forever, or it won't. If the US remains physically productive forever, repayment of that debt can be pushed off forever [we just keep paying workers with money broowed from their own future productivity.] If the US eventually stops being physically productive, some apocalyptic catastrophe has occurred, and whether or not that debt is repaid is completely moot. Either way, borrowing against the future is cool, and we will never have to stop doing that, or pay it back. This argument, along with the incredible awsomeness of an imperial presidency when it's one's own party's turn in the White House, is one of the very small number of bedrock concepts that both major parties are in complete agreement with. On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 11:06 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > > > > >?In terms of spending, both parties are now very similar and have been > for a very long time? Dylan > > > > Ja. I haven?t been able to tell them apart for over 30 years. The two > mainstream parties in the US have marched lockstep to burying the US into a > morass of debt from which extrication is impossible. > > > > In light of that, why would we care about the usual stuff, religion, > immigration, guns and abortion? That soaring debt is a ticking time bomb. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue May 5 18:34:11 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 11:34:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <017f01d6230b$c5b404d0$511c0e70$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Darin Sunley via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] antiscience from both sides >?There's an argument for government debt analogous to the Doomsday Argument. >?Government debt is essentially borrowing against future real productivity ? >?Either way, borrowing against the future is cool, and we will never have to stop doing that, or pay it back? Darin Sure, but what about those left holding the bag? We will never have to pay it back, because that will be after we are gone, but some live on, ja? What about them? What about the younger set here, those under 50? Are you cool with being the ones left holding the bag? Really? Why? And what about if that whole notion of borrowing grows ever more popular and necessary, then suddenly? there are no more lenders? Suppose the previous lenders suddenly cannot lend anymore because they are also in financial distress. Perhaps the same black swan event occurred to the lenders. Then they cannot lend, and they need to call in debts already incurred. They now depend on the productivity of the US, but not future productivity: they need right now productivity, and they need it desperately. In that scenario, there is no more borrowing, for lenders everywhere are in a similar situation. Whoever is running the White House in that scenario is nearly irrelevant, for all they do there is struggle to manage debt. Is that scenario really so hard to envision? Darin, in light of that, what else is really of any significance? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue May 5 18:52:58 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 13:52:58 -0500 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: <017f01d6230b$c5b404d0$511c0e70$@rainier66.com> References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> <017f01d6230b$c5b404d0$511c0e70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Money and me just don't click. I have a mortgage and no other debt. If you owe it, pay it, is my theory. But for the country? It won't happen in anybody's lifetime. They won't cut welfare, SS, Medicare and Medicaid because it's political suicide and if it's anything those in Congress like, it's staying in Congress. In the future, what? If conditions get so drastic here, then Americans will move elsewhere - duh. To the new place that's not bankrupt yet. What would happen if we just said: we have no debt - go fish? Then we run gov. on what it takes in because no one will loan us money. Of course, that is probably crazy thinking because I don't know economics. bill w On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 1:36 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *Darin Sunley via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] antiscience from both sides > > > > >?There's an argument for government debt analogous to the Doomsday > Argument. > > > > >?Government debt is essentially borrowing against future real > productivity ? > > > > >?Either way, borrowing against the future is cool, and we will never have > to stop doing that, or pay it back? Darin > > > > Sure, but what about those left holding the bag? We will never have to > pay it back, because that will be after we are gone, but some live on, ja? > What about them? What about the younger set here, those under 50? Are you > cool with being the ones left holding the bag? Really? Why? > > > > And what about if that whole notion of borrowing grows ever more popular > and necessary, then suddenly? there are no more lenders? Suppose the > previous lenders suddenly cannot lend anymore because they are also in > financial distress. Perhaps the same black swan event occurred to the > lenders. Then they cannot lend, and they need to call in debts already > incurred. They now depend on the productivity of the US, but not future > productivity: they need right now productivity, and they need it > desperately. > > > > In that scenario, there is no more borrowing, for lenders everywhere are > in a similar situation. Whoever is running the White House in that > scenario is nearly irrelevant, for all they do there is struggle to manage > debt. > > > > Is that scenario really so hard to envision? > > > > Darin, in light of that, what else is really of any significance? > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue May 5 19:59:28 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 15:59:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 10:47 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> why was the political clown performing his antics at the *Conservative >> *Political Action Conference? And why were the *conservative* clowns in >> the audience cheering mindlessly at the buffoonish politician? > > > > > *He knows how to appeal to right wingers. * > If a right winger can listen to ANY Trump speech for longer than 45 seconds and think "here we have a sincere well informed intelligent man that will tell me the truth" then right wingers are as silly and stupid as the president himself is. Hillary Clinton called extreme right wingers "deplorables", and she got into enormous trouble when she did so, but that often happens when in a moment of weakness a politician slips up and inadvertently tells the truth. Over the years voters have trained politicians not to tell the truth and will punish any that dares to do so. * > I don?t see anything a bit right wing about how the US government is > running. Do you?* > Yes I do, I see all sorts of things right wingers love. Anti free speech. Anti abortion. Anti marijuana. Anti Free Trade. Anti Encryption. Anti Bitcoin. Anti gay rights. Anti Euthanasia. Anti environmental laws. Sympathy for Natzi protestors. Sympathy for the KKK. Anti high middle and lower classes. And Pro the super ultra high class, the richest 1% of the 1%. And *VERY* Pro the richest 1% of the 1% of the 1%.... except for Jeff Bezos.... Trump doesn't like Bezos because he owns the Washington Post which has exposed a few of Trump's many many scandals. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Tue May 5 20:11:44 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 15:11:44 -0500 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> <017f01d6230b$c5b404d0$511c0e70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <833B70EB-771C-4B71-AC1E-62B5D57E0026@gmail.com> Like I?ve said before, if EVERY country is in debt (and they all do seem to be), then who owns all that debt? What effect would debt simplification have on the overall picture? http://feedback.splitwise.com/knowledgebase/articles/107220-what-does-the-simplify-debts-setting-do In the example above, overall debt was reduced 50%. > holding the bag - spike Technically, no one ever has to hold the bag because you can: (1) Default (2) New country/government (3) Inflation (?Money printer goes brrrrr?) > Americans will move elsewhere - bill w How? Degrees? Only about 35% of Americans have bachelor?s degrees. For most countries thats the absolute minimum to come as general skilled labor. This allows you, at the least, to become an English teacher in many parts of the world. Religion? (Right of Return) There is perhaps a population of as many as 5 million Jews in the US, but the majority likely do not qualify. I am ethnically Jewish but the last practicing member in my family was my Great-grandfather so I missed it by a generation. It must be your father or grandfather. You must also be sufficiently orthodox. Members of reform and restorationist belief do not qualify. You could theoretically convert. Military? By fighting in foreign military, it is possible to get citizenship. 2 years in the IDF (though you might have to convert), 3 in the FFL, 3 years Russian army. If you are in US military, NZ (I think). Ancestry? Many countries will consider ancestry based requests based on parents and grandparents, but only a few further than that. Other skills? IT, with enough experience, a degree might not be required. So all-in-all, many Americans don?t really have anywhere else to move. Myself for example, and the US in general. Degree: no. I?d need 4 years and student loans. 65% of Americans don't have them. So now 35% can leave. Religion: no. Unless absolutely necessary, and if already married, would I even consider converting. And that would still require 2-3 years. Likely less than 1% of Americans would qualify. A good number of whom have college degrees, the average US Jew has 14.7 years of education, with about 75% having college degrees. Now we?re at 35.5%! Military: My fianc? and I are not ?draftable? in the US anymore but it should be possible to still join the military until at least 30. The issue? Like most Americans, I am too fat! Approx number of US men and women between 19 and 35: 66 million. The percent that are obese (too fat for the military)? 40% So that leaves us with about 40 million souls. About 35% of those were already counted as college graduates. Now we have about 26 million. Thats about 8%. Now about 43% can leave! Ancestry: My maternal grandfather, his grandparents were German. Nope! My Maternal grandmother, her parents were Russian/Belarusian and Irish-American. Nope. My Paternal Grandfather is Boston white-bread, and his wife was Peruvian. But it has to be your parent. Oops. I can?t use that. Percent of Americans with at least one foreign parent? Well, there are some 20 million of them (6%). They have an average college graduation rate. So now about 4%. The other variables I cant account for. Less than 50% of Americans can leave. Through sustained religious conversion or massive debt, the other half could maybe leave in about 3-4 years. But Israel won?t accept 150 million new citizens. No one needs that many English teachers, and not that many Americans speak foreign languages. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue May 5 20:25:19 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 13:25:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <01eb01d6231b$4c67ab80$e5370280$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >?Hillary Clinton called extreme right wingers "deplorables"? Extreme right wingers? She identified 25% of America with the ?half of Trump followers?? comment, but it felt like she was taking in plenty of non-Trump followers, including Johnson followers, the greens, the stay-homers, anyone who didn?t vote for her. >? a moment of weakness a politician slips up and inadvertently tells the truth?John K Clark John you should start the anti-deplorable movement. Anyone who doesn?t support you is in a basket of deplorables, racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamophobic, you name it. That was a huge error, and it is What Happened. This person just vilified at least a quarter of the American voters as these things, but probably about half. No way anyone could get elected after that misstep. That was the biggest unforced error by a politician in my memory. I don?t consider that the truth. I think of it as hate speech. Racist, sexist, you name it, that comment was all of these. Since you have identified that as your truth, you should start your own party and run on that John. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue May 5 20:29:37 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 16:29:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Evolved Complexity In-Reply-To: <471287573.878020.1588638559764@mail.yahoo.com> References: <7208fc42-ac12-afad-bac6-56801ef788f9@zaiboc.net> <471287573.878020.1588638559764@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 8:32 PM The Avantguardian via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> I can't seem to find where he mentions specific figures like the 10^35 > parts to an electron* I don't know what you mean by that. Unlike a Proton or a Neutron as far as our most sensitive measurements can tell an electron has no parts, it has no inner structure, it is a point particle. But forget electrons, I'd be delighted if he could just explain why a ball going down a inclined plane moves the way it does. He can't, but to be fair to Wolfram neither can String "Theory" ; neither can make testable predictions so neither are theories, both are just ideas that maybe someday if we're lucky can be developed into theories. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue May 5 20:37:04 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 13:37:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0DCBAE82-2306-44A9-AE79-F08D85B424CF@gmail.com> On Tuesday, May 5, 2020, 12:20:57 AM PDT, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote: > "Often what is seen in the US and Europe is self-identifies Leftists > adopting Right methods ? compulsion, hierarchy, and unreason." > - well said! Thanks! I wish I'd copy-edited it before tapping Send. :/ I would've corrected it to: 'Often what is seen in the US and Europe is _self-identified_ Leftists adopting Right methods ? compulsion, hierarchy, and unreason.' That said, I also believe many self-identified Leftists are basically Rightists in disguise. They might share some Left ends -- emancipation is the basic Left wing goal. This is if one goes back to the origin of the distinction. The classical liberals were on the Left, in this regard. And so are anarchists. By the way, I'm not trying to oversimplify too much here. I wouldn't, for instance, identify the Right with conservatives, though conservatives are generally on the Right. The Right would also include anti-conservatives, such as actual fascists. (Fascists, in general, don't want to preserve current institutions, for instance. In that respect, they tend to want a social revolution. That might make them seem Leftists -- if one identifies revolution with the Left, but I would look at a given revolution's ends and means and not merely define anything that a radical break with the status quo as Leftist. In fact, a coup d'etat by a Right wing faction could be a radical break with the status quo all in effect to break down anything in the way of a Rightist social order. Obviously, this is exactly what happened in Italy in 1922.) By the way, see also Jeff Riggenbach's helpful essay on why he believes libertarianism (in the US-American usage) is on the Left: https://jeffriggenbach.liberty.me/why-i-am-a-left-libertarian/ His reasoning hearkens back to Herbert Spencer's 'The New Toryism': https://www.econlib.org/library/LFBooks/Spencer/spnMvS.htmleconlib.org/library/LFBooks/Spencer/spnMvS.html?chapter_num=5#book-reader Regards, Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue May 5 20:40:21 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 13:40:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6A772EA4-0344-476E-A4CA-A5654812DB7F@gmail.com> On Tuesday, May 5, 2020, 12:00:17 AM PDT, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: > On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 9:50 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: >> I disagree with there being two 'healthy, adaptive genders.' That's sneaking in basically religious >> morality with, of course, a pseudo-biological rationale, into these categories. Again, I ask you look >> over the work of folks like Anne Fausto-Sterling and Cordelia Fine. > > ### Do you have an insight into my motivations that I don't have? As I mentioned many times on > this list in the last 25 years, I am an atheist, so please don't impute that I am "sneaking" and using > a "pseudo-biological" approach. Show Quoted Content > On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 9:50 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: >> I disagree with there being two 'healthy, adaptive genders.' That's sneaking in basically religious >> morality with, of course, a pseudo-biological rationale, into these categories. Again, I ask you look >> over the work of folks like Anne Fausto-Sterling and Cordelia Fine. > > ### Do you have an insight into my motivations that I don't have? As I mentioned many times on > this list in the last 25 years, I am an atheist, so please don't impute that I am "sneaking" and using > a "pseudo-biological" approach. That you fail to assimilate the actual findings of gender/sex science seems to show are casting out science... An atheist, too, can fall for many of the ideas inculcated by a society dominated by religious moral views of sex, gender, and the like. > Being gay or trans significantly interferes with one's ability to create and maintain stable, child- > rearing families. This is a simple biological and statistical fact. Dismissing this fact as "religious > morality with pseudo-biological rationale" doesn't make it go away. It's not established in that way at all. For a long time and even now, institutional regimes -- in other words, laws and norms inside institutions -- do their best to promote cis only families. For instance, non-hetero parents are prevented from adopting or keeping children (and thus forming families with children). This is legal disruption of family formation and stability. (It also doesn't help when, for instance, parents ostracize a child who identifies as non-binary or non-hetero. Do you doubt this happens? Do you doubt it can disruptive to not only the family of origin but can disrupt the child's ability to bond with others?) This is similar to how many so called learned men said women should go to college and pursue degrees, especially not in STEM fields, because of their biology: that their biology means they're less able to do the work, concentrate, be rational, etc. When, in fact, there's no biological basis for these claims and the empirical fact that less women were in these fields at the time had to do with institutional obstacles and cultural norms. > That's the thing with facts, they don't go away even if you call them bad names. Apparently calling trans people malingers or disturbed is okay though. Or do you have a factual basis that trans people are more likely to be malingerers or disturbed than cis people? (And I mean beyond social and legal stigmas that tend to make it harder for anyone not fitting social gender normals to get jobs and lead otherwise normal lives.) >>> So, they say that a psychologically disturbed man or a malingering man may claim >>> himself to be a woman and we, normal people, are obliged to respect his claims. >> >> Personally knowing and working with many people who identify as trans, I can attest that they aren't malingerers. I'm wondering where you get that from. > > ### As you quoted above, disturbed or malingering. I guess you met the disturbed ones. Show Quoted Content >>> So, they say that a psychologically disturbed man or a malingering man may claim >>> himself to be a woman and we, normal people, are obliged to respect his claims. >> >> Personally knowing and working with many people who identify as trans, I can attest that they aren't malingerers. I'm wondering where you get that from. > > ### As you quoted above, disturbed or malingering. I guess you met the disturbed ones. If they're disturbed, I haven't noticed. Of course, if you're going to define being trans as being disturbed, then you've achieved a victory (in your own mind) by definition. Regards, Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Tue May 5 20:47:48 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 15:47:48 -0500 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: >"here we have a sincere well informed intelligent man that will tell me the truth" That?s not what they are selecting for. They are selecting someone who will aggressively pursue their interests. >[Dem. Politician] called extreme right wingers "deplorables", and she got into enormous trouble when she did so Well ?Dem Types? don?t like this kind of language. They want an air of respectability. They want politicians to ?play fair?. And ?Right Wing? types don?t care about the language (because that?s not really their thing), they care about the implication that they?re wrong. They also know that they can use it as a weapon because ?Dem Types? will find the language off-putting. > Anti free speech. ?Left Wingers? also object to and cancel plenty of speech. > Anti Free Trade. There are also plenty of ?Left Wingers? that don?t like free trade. Have you heard of NAFTA? Opposed by US labor unions and US environmental groups since it?s inception? TPP has also been denigrated by ?Left Wingers?. Tide of bipartisan political opposition to free trade: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/20/republicans-and-democrats-oppose-free-trade-in-2020-white-house-race.html The anti-globalization movement has prominent ?left? and ?right? elements. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-globalization_movement > Anti Euthanasia. Before reading this, I thought Euthanasia was broadly disliked in the US but it turns out is it broadly favored. (73%) https://news.gallup.com/poll/211928/majority-americans-remain-supportive-euthanasia.aspx 55% of weekly church goers, 60% of ?conservatives?, and 67% of Republicans say it?s fine. So I learned something new today. >Anti high middle and lower classes. I don?t really understand this. Can you provide examples? But likely I address this in the section below. > And Pro the super ultra high class, the richest 1% of the 1%. And VERY Pro the richest 1% of the 1% of the 1%.... except for Jeff Bezos.... While the video had it?s flaws, this is clearly explained in the ?Always a Bigger Fish? video by Ian Danskin. https://youtu.be/agzNANfNlTs >Trump The dynamics of Trump?s ?Rabid, die-hard? supporters is described very well in Bob Altemeyer?s ?The Authoritarians?. Which is free to read via his website. https://theauthoritarians.org/Downloads/TheAuthoritarians.pdf It should answer almost any questions or puzzlement you have on the phenomenon. SR Ballard -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue May 5 20:53:23 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 13:53:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tuesday, May 5, 2020, 04:22:44 AM PDT, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > A leftist is a rightist who got drafted. > A rightist is a leftist who got mugged. How would that work given that there's been no conscription in the US since before I and many others here were born? Presumably, at least some of the folks here identify as on the Left. Oh, and I get the joke. An uncle of mine told me a different one: A liberal is a conservative who's been arrested. A conservative is a liberal who's been mugged. That makes a wee more sense, though it reduces people's political views down to particular life trauma, which I find a bit overly reductive. Don't you? (Of course, if it's merely a joke, fine. But I think some people take these things seriously. For instance, ask someone why they believe the views they believe, and they often come up with reasons that seem to make sense -- they've examined the facts, looked over different views, and made a rational choice. Asked why their adversaries believe what they do and the tune changes -- my adversaries ignore the facts, have a bias because of their background, experiences, family, etc., and are irrational to some extent.) Regards, Dan From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue May 5 20:57:34 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 16:57:34 -0400 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: <01eb01d6231b$4c67ab80$e5370280$@rainier66.com> References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> <01eb01d6231b$4c67ab80$e5370280$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 4:27 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> This person just vilified at least a quarter of the American voters* Yes. And at least a quarter of the American voters very much deserved to be vilified. And no, if I were running for office I couldn't say what I just said, but I'm not so I can. If I were running for office I'd be going on and on about the great wisdom and nobility of the American Voter. > *That was the biggest unforced error by a politician in my memory.* Agreed. If telling the truth helped politicians get elected then they'd tell the truth, but it doesn't so they don't. She certainly knew this but when you make a hundred speeches a week you get tired and make mistakes. Trump's advantage is that he's a congenital liar so he doesn't even have to think about it, no matter how tired he gets a lie is always his default response. *> I don?t consider that the truth. I think of it as hate speech.* I'm not an expert on political correctness so I will leave it to philosophers to determine if hate speech is hate speech even if it's true. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue May 5 21:40:41 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 14:40:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> <01eb01d6231b$4c67ab80$e5370280$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <023301d62325$d3c1e4b0$7b45ae10$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] antiscience from both sides On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 4:27 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >>? This person just vilified at least a quarter of the American voters >?Yes. And at least a quarter of the American voters very much deserved to be vilified? So you didn?t learn anything from that. OK. >?And no, if I were running for office I couldn't say what I just said, but I'm not so I can? John K Clark Sure. But suppose you do. Then any candidate you endorse is entangled in your hate speech. This is a common false-flag technique. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue May 5 21:51:27 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 16:51:27 -0500 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: <833B70EB-771C-4B71-AC1E-62B5D57E0026@gmail.com> References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> <017f01d6230b$c5b404d0$511c0e70$@rainier66.com> <833B70EB-771C-4B71-AC1E-62B5D57E0026@gmail.com> Message-ID: I am ethnically Jewish but the last practicing member in my family was my Great-grandfather so I missed it by a generation. It must be your father or grandfather. SR According to what I read, if you don't have a Jewish mother, you are not Jewish. Mother rather than father for obvious reasons. bill w On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 3:13 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Like I?ve said before, if EVERY country is in debt (and they all do seem > to be), then who owns all that debt? > > What effect would debt simplification have on the overall picture? > > > http://feedback.splitwise.com/knowledgebase/articles/107220-what-does-the-simplify-debts-setting-do > > In the example above, overall debt was reduced 50%. > > > holding the bag - spike > > Technically, no one ever has to hold the bag because you can: > > (1) Default > (2) New country/government > (3) Inflation (?Money printer goes brrrrr?) > > > Americans will move elsewhere - bill w > > How? > > Degrees? > > Only about 35% of Americans have bachelor?s degrees. For most countries > thats the absolute minimum to come as general skilled labor. > > This allows you, at the least, to become an English teacher in many parts > of the world. > > Religion? (Right of Return) > > There is perhaps a population of as many as 5 million Jews in the US, but > the majority likely do not qualify. > > I am ethnically Jewish but the last practicing member in my family was my > Great-grandfather so I missed it by a generation. It must be your father or > grandfather. > > You must also be sufficiently orthodox. Members of reform and > restorationist belief do not qualify. You could theoretically convert. > > Military? > > By fighting in foreign military, it is possible to get citizenship. 2 > years in the IDF (though you might have to convert), 3 in the FFL, 3 years > Russian army. If you are in US military, NZ (I think). > > Ancestry? > > Many countries will consider ancestry based requests based on parents and > grandparents, but only a few further than that. > > Other skills? > > IT, with enough experience, a degree might not be required. > > So all-in-all, many Americans don?t really have anywhere else to move. > Myself for example, and the US in general. > > Degree: no. I?d need 4 years and student loans. 65% of Americans don't > have them. So now 35% can leave. > > Religion: no. Unless absolutely necessary, and if already married, would I > even consider converting. And that would still require 2-3 years. Likely > less than 1% of Americans would qualify. A good number of whom have college > degrees, the average US Jew has 14.7 years of education, with about 75% > having college degrees. Now we?re at 35.5%! > > Military: My fianc? and I are not ?draftable? in the US anymore but it > should be possible to still join the military until at least 30. The issue? > Like most Americans, I am too fat! > > Approx number of US men and women between 19 and 35: 66 million. The > percent that are obese (too fat for the military)? 40% So that leaves us > with about 40 million souls. About 35% of those were already counted as > college graduates. Now we have about 26 million. Thats about 8%. Now about > 43% can leave! > > Ancestry: My maternal grandfather, his grandparents were German. Nope! My > Maternal grandmother, her parents were Russian/Belarusian and > Irish-American. Nope. My Paternal Grandfather is Boston white-bread, and > his wife was Peruvian. But it has to be your parent. Oops. I can?t use > that. > > Percent of Americans with at least one foreign parent? Well, there are > some 20 million of them (6%). They have an average college graduation rate. > So now about 4%. The other variables I cant account for. > > Less than 50% of Americans can leave. Through sustained religious > conversion or massive debt, the other half could maybe leave in about 3-4 > years. But Israel won?t accept 150 million new citizens. No one needs that > many English teachers, and not that many Americans speak foreign languages. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rocket at earthlight.com Tue May 5 22:45:30 2020 From: rocket at earthlight.com (Re Rose) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 18:45:30 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) Message-ID: Hi John, I think fractures are undesirable, and although they may seem easy to repair if they're "clean" - even so, that's a lot of repairing. There were experiements done by Dr. Cavallo (not sure if I'm spelling his name correctly, he was the doctor interested in doing the first head transfer) claiming that when he severed the spinal cord of a chimpanzee using a micro-sharp blade, he was able to get neural regrowth at the two ends (allowing the head transplantation). He did not claim, however, that the neuron-to-neuron pathway wiring was accurate, and if I were to guess I would it is likely is was not. Same for healing complete fractures after cryopreservation. Guided nanotech may be an answer but that's speculative for now, and its unlcear what information will be used to guide the nanomachines, so with what we know now - I think deep organ and tissue fractures/cracks are something to minimize. My concern about hormone simulation is not about the speed of their signalling, but the entraining and dynamics of the entire system. While some hormones are easy to model (like insulin), many interact widely in nertworked hormonal systems, like growth hormones, stress hormones, or female reproductive hotmoens. These hormonal feedback cycles interact not only with the body but also with the brain/mind. I often describe these cycles as similar to a system of interconnected pendulums, and disturbances in any of the cycles (ie, pendulum frequencies) can cause de-entraining of the entire system, which is then diffuclt to re-entrain, or may even find a new equilibrium. Keeping such a system stable is what I think is difficult, maybe impossible to emulate - not the speed of the hormonal information transfer. I'm famiilar with the prisim experiment, in fact when I was a kid I taped my big brother's bar prisim to my glasses, and proceed to stumble and fall all over my parents house for almost 2 days, stalking around and claiming I would "learn to see again". I accreted far too many bruises and bloody cuts to be allowed to finish that experiment, but I am confident it works - and, there are many, many interesting examples of people learning to "see" or "hear" with their tongues, navigate blind using only input from a weighted belt device, hearing sounds from the sparse data of a cochlear implant, and others. No doubt the cortex is completely able to do this. But the task in a new body would be overwhelming - like asking your mature brain to inhabit and rewire the sensory cortex of a newborn. I imagine it could be like multi-year long drug trip. That has to deeply change the essential you. I think this experience would be overwhelming, and brains are not infinitely able to rewire so very much without harm. As in my last email, I think you risk losing yourself: even if the brain copy + agent manages to eventually make sense of the world with all these changes and becomes an autonomous agent itself - it will not be "you". The happy goal of re-animating "you" will not have been met. I believe it *can* be met, but not via uploading. -Regina ----------------------------- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 09:25:26 -0400 From: John Clark To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 8:07 AM Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Agreed, it's easier to get faster cooling rates (although that's not > always better, depending on the physical properties of the tissue and the ability to homogeneously cool without causing stress fractiures...)* I don't think cracks is a major problem in cryonics because with a clean crack it should be pretty obvious what part went where before the crack formed and so could be repaired. I'm much more worried about the liquid in the brain undergoing chaotic turbulence as it freezes because if it does then very small differences in initial conditions could lead to huge differences in outcome; but fortunately most indications are the flow would be Laminar, at least when the cryopreservation is done under ideal conditions. *> I think any upload is problematic. I believe there are two problems that > will be really hard to solve: first, preserving the cyclic, dynamical > environment of non-neural information available in the body such as > hormonal cycles or feedback from non-neural neurotransmitters (such as from > your gut) is difficult, with no solution on the horizon.* > Why on earth would emulating hormones be especially difficult? Hormone signals are very slow, much less than one meter per second; the signals in a AI move at 300,000,000 meters a second. The Shannon information conten is small, there are only about 200 hormones in the human body. And Hormone signals move by random diffusion and blood circulation so their target is not very specific. If your job is delivering packages and the packages are very small, and your boss will be satisfied if you just deliver them to the correct continent, and you have until the start of the next millennium to do it, then you don't have a very demanding job. > *> Second, your cortex is specifically wired to accomodate your body, with all its quirks, balances, habits, accomodations, skillz, and tics. Every human body is different* The cortex is also wired to learn new things. Experiments show that even when people wear glasses that make everything look upside down they soon learn to get used to it and perform normally. The same was true for glasses that invert left and right, one subject safely road his motorcycle through a crowded city with no problem. We quickly adjust to seeing everything upside-down < https://www.theguardian.com/education/2012/nov/12/improbable-research-seeing-upside-down > John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Tue May 5 23:15:01 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 18:15:01 -0500 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> <017f01d6230b$c5b404d0$511c0e70$@rainier66.com> <833B70EB-771C-4B71-AC1E-62B5D57E0026@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4894D08C-F56F-47FC-8854-AE0B972F8B3D@gmail.com> ?Being Jewish? So there is ethnically Jewish (your mother or grandmother must be Jewish), and there are the rules under Law of Return which state that your Father or Grandfather should be Jewish. That is ?religiously Jewish?. The thinking here (I assume) is that, due to a number of factors, many Jewish women ?marry out?. Among them: - Women are usually expected to marry a man about 4 years older than herself. The genders are largely symmetrical at the same age (20 vs. 20) but due to the high birthrate, each age cohort is bigger than the last, meaning there are more 20 year old women than 24 year old men. - Statistically, more women tend to be religious than men. So due to attrition, there will be less men in the same age group (20 vs 20) - Due to high demands for available men, dowries have become quite high. Simply put, some Jewish families cannot save enough money for their daughters to get married to a good man. So the thinking here is, they want the entire Jewish family. The assumption is Jewish men will only marry Jewish women, but Jewish women might not marry Jewish men. SR Ballard > On May 5, 2020, at 4:51 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > I am ethnically Jewish but the last practicing member in my family was my Great-grandfather so I missed it by a generation. It must be your father or grandfather. SR > > According to what I read, if you don't have a Jewish mother, you are not Jewish. Mother rather than father for obvious reasons. > > bill w > >> On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 3:13 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >> Like I?ve said before, if EVERY country is in debt (and they all do seem to be), then who owns all that debt? >> >> What effect would debt simplification have on the overall picture? >> >> http://feedback.splitwise.com/knowledgebase/articles/107220-what-does-the-simplify-debts-setting-do >> >> In the example above, overall debt was reduced 50%. >> >> > holding the bag - spike >> >> Technically, no one ever has to hold the bag because you can: >> >> (1) Default >> (2) New country/government >> (3) Inflation (?Money printer goes brrrrr?) >> >> > Americans will move elsewhere - bill w >> >> How? >> >> Degrees? >> >> Only about 35% of Americans have bachelor?s degrees. For most countries thats the absolute minimum to come as general skilled labor. >> >> This allows you, at the least, to become an English teacher in many parts of the world. >> >> Religion? (Right of Return) >> >> There is perhaps a population of as many as 5 million Jews in the US, but the majority likely do not qualify. >> >> I am ethnically Jewish but the last practicing member in my family was my Great-grandfather so I missed it by a generation. It must be your father or grandfather. >> >> You must also be sufficiently orthodox. Members of reform and restorationist belief do not qualify. You could theoretically convert. >> >> Military? >> >> By fighting in foreign military, it is possible to get citizenship. 2 years in the IDF (though you might have to convert), 3 in the FFL, 3 years Russian army. If you are in US military, NZ (I think). >> >> Ancestry? >> >> Many countries will consider ancestry based requests based on parents and grandparents, but only a few further than that. >> >> Other skills? >> >> IT, with enough experience, a degree might not be required. >> >> So all-in-all, many Americans don?t really have anywhere else to move. Myself for example, and the US in general. >> >> Degree: no. I?d need 4 years and student loans. 65% of Americans don't have them. So now 35% can leave. >> >> Religion: no. Unless absolutely necessary, and if already married, would I even consider converting. And that would still require 2-3 years. Likely less than 1% of Americans would qualify. A good number of whom have college degrees, the average US Jew has 14.7 years of education, with about 75% having college degrees. Now we?re at 35.5%! >> >> Military: My fianc? and I are not ?draftable? in the US anymore but it should be possible to still join the military until at least 30. The issue? Like most Americans, I am too fat! >> >> Approx number of US men and women between 19 and 35: 66 million. The percent that are obese (too fat for the military)? 40% So that leaves us with about 40 million souls. About 35% of those were already counted as college graduates. Now we have about 26 million. Thats about 8%. Now about 43% can leave! >> >> Ancestry: My maternal grandfather, his grandparents were German. Nope! My Maternal grandmother, her parents were Russian/Belarusian and Irish-American. Nope. My Paternal Grandfather is Boston white-bread, and his wife was Peruvian. But it has to be your parent. Oops. I can?t use that. >> >> Percent of Americans with at least one foreign parent? Well, there are some 20 million of them (6%). They have an average college graduation rate. So now about 4%. The other variables I cant account for. >> >> Less than 50% of Americans can leave. Through sustained religious conversion or massive debt, the other half could maybe leave in about 3-4 years. But Israel won?t accept 150 million new citizens. No one needs that many English teachers, and not that many Americans speak foreign languages. >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Tue May 5 23:21:42 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 16:21:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Covid again Message-ID: Copies off slashdot. As the administration privately predicted a sharp increase in deaths, a public model that has been frequently cited by the White House revised its own estimates and projected a death toll of more than double what it was predicting last month. The Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington is now estimating that there will be nearly 135,000 deaths in the U.S. through the beginning of August -- more than double what it forecast on April 17, when it estimated 60,308 deaths by Aug. 4. (There have already been more than 68,000 deaths in the U.S.) The institute wrote that the revisions "reflect rising mobility in most U.S. states as well as the easing of social distancing measures expected in 31 states by May 11, indicating that growing contacts among people will promote transmission of the coronavirus." Keith From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed May 6 13:33:34 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 09:33:34 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 6:49 PM Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *I think fractures are undesirable, and although they may seem easy to > repair if they're "clean" - even so, that's a lot of repairing.* > Sure, any damage is undesirable but the sad fact is even if a patient is cryopreserved using the best methods available today a huge amount of damage will be caused and a massive amount of repairing (or replacing) will be needed to bring the person back to consciousness. And cracks are by far the least serious form of damage because it is the easiest to fix or replace, if you can't fix cracks then you have no hope of fixing the far more serious forms of damage. I don't think any Cryonics patient will be revived until we have Drexler style Nanotechnology and can control matter at the atomic level. The key question is if Information Theoretic Death has occurred, if the information on what makes you be you is lost then you're dead. That's why I think Alcor should switch from the vitrification process it uses now to ASC (Aldehyde Stabilized Cryopreservation). In ASC in addition to a cryoprotectant a brain is also infused with the chemical Glutaraldehyde, it's the stuff in wart removing lotion you can get over the counter in any drugstore. Glutaraldehyde kills cells because it crosslinks proteins, but that very cross-linking holds things in place even when they're cooled down to liquid nitrogen temperatures, and so Information Theoretic Death is avoided. ASC has been used on a entire pig's brain which was then cooled down to near liquid nitrogen temperatures and then warmed back up to room temperature and sliced into thin sections and sent to a electron microscope. The result was beautiful pictures of synapses and other brain structures that are far superior to the pictures Alcor's current vitrification process can produce, and there is no reason to think molecular-level information wouldn't be preserved too. It's even more impressive when you consider that the pictures were made after rewarming because most of the damage happens at the warming stage not the cooling stage, I would have been delighted even if the pictures were made while the brain was still frozen because I'd be willing to let future technology worry about warming, but this is even better. Cryonics for uploaders: The Brain Preservation Prize has been won Nevertheless Alcor has resisted changing over to ASC, I suspect the reason for their hesitation is that if they did so they would implicitly be saying "*we're not even trying to bring that frozen body back to life, we're just trying to preserve the information in it because information on how the atoms are arranged in my brain are different from the way they are arranged in your brain is the only difference between you and me*". I happen to think that's exactly what Alcor should be saying, but the ghost of the discredited 19th century theory of Vitalism is still haunting the 21th century and many still think that despite all the scientific evidence to the contrary the atoms in our bodies must somehow have our name scratched on them. I suspect Alcor is reluctant to change because they believe ASC would be bad public relations. But I think reality is more important than PR and the Vitalism superstition could get people killed. > > *Guided nanotech may be an answer* > I don't think there is any "may" about it, without Nanotech there is no hope. Incidentally back in 1986 in Drexler's classic book on Nanotechnology "Engines Of Creation" he describes something very similar to ASC that people alive today could use right now to achieve immortality, or something close to it. > > *My concern about hormone simulation is not about the speed of their > signalling, but the entraining and dynamics of the entire system. While > some hormones are easy to model (like insulin), many interact widely in > nertworked hormonal systems, like growth hormones, stress hormones, or > female reproductive hotmoens. These hormonal feedback cycles interact not > only with the body but also with the brain/mind.* > If future technology is not good enough to model hormonal feedback cycles then it certainly isn't good enough to repair or replace the 100 trillion damaged synapses in the human brain and there is no hope, Cryonics patients are not patients at all they're just frozen dead meat. > *> even if the brain copy + agent manages to eventually make sense of the > world with all these changes and becomes an autonomous agent itself - it > will not be "you".* > People, even philosophers, use that personal pronoun with abandon without giving it a second thought, I do too because right now there is only one chunk of matter in the observable universe that behaves in a johnkclarkian way. But that need not always be true because it is caused not by a scientific law but simply because of a lack of technological sophistication. When the age of Nanotechnology arrives the entire English language will need retooling, especially in the way it treats personal pronouns. The only reason I think I'm the same guy I was yesterday is that I remember being John Clark yesterday, the same thing will be true even in the age of Nanotechnology, although there could be many people claiming to be John Clark because they all remember being him yesterday. And all of them would be correct and have a equally valid claim of being "me". John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Wed May 6 14:55:12 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 08:55:12 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Which copy wins the philosophical claim of "being" "me" doesn't worry me. Which one wins the legal claims of "gets to lock the other copies of me out of the house I'm living in now", "gets to continue the relationship I have with my employer right now", and most importantly, the social claim of "gets to hang out with my unduplicated wife and kids"... These worry me a great deal. Enough that I think I'd like to have a good plan in place to resolve those claims before a hundred (or a million!) of me wake up one fine morning each having a 99 (or 99.9999!) percent chance of being disposessed of unduplicatable real property and relationships and we have to start playing Highlander ("There can be only one!"). On Wed, May 6, 2020, 7:37 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 6:49 PM Re Rose via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *I think fractures are undesirable, and although they may seem easy to >> repair if they're "clean" - even so, that's a lot of repairing.* >> > > Sure, any damage is undesirable but the sad fact is even if a patient is > cryopreserved using the best methods available today a huge amount of > damage will be caused and a massive amount of repairing (or replacing) will > be needed to bring the person back to consciousness. And cracks are by far > the least serious form of damage because it is the easiest to fix or > replace, if you can't fix cracks then you have no hope of fixing the far > more serious forms of damage. I don't think any Cryonics patient will be > revived until we have Drexler style Nanotechnology and can control matter > at the atomic level. > > The key question is if Information Theoretic Death has occurred, if the > information on what makes you be you is lost then you're dead. That's why I > think Alcor should switch from the vitrification process it uses now to ASC > (Aldehyde Stabilized Cryopreservation). In ASC in addition to a > cryoprotectant a brain is also infused with the chemical Glutaraldehyde, > it's the stuff in wart removing lotion you can get over the counter in any > drugstore. Glutaraldehyde kills cells because it crosslinks proteins, but > that very cross-linking holds things in place even when they're cooled down > to liquid nitrogen temperatures, and so Information Theoretic Death is > avoided. > > ASC has been used on a entire pig's brain which was then cooled down to > near liquid nitrogen temperatures and then warmed back up to room > temperature and sliced into thin sections and sent to a electron > microscope. The result was beautiful pictures of synapses and other brain > structures that are far superior to the pictures Alcor's current > vitrification process can produce, and there is no reason to think > molecular-level information wouldn't be preserved too. It's even more > impressive when you consider that the pictures were made after rewarming > because most of the damage happens at the warming stage not the cooling > stage, I would have been delighted even if the pictures were made while the > brain was still frozen because I'd be willing to let future technology > worry about warming, but this is even better. > > Cryonics for uploaders: The Brain Preservation Prize has been won > > > Nevertheless Alcor has resisted changing over to ASC, I suspect the reason > for their hesitation is that if they did so they would implicitly be saying > "*we're not even trying to bring that frozen body back to life, we're > just trying to preserve the information in it because information on how > the atoms are arranged in my brain are different from the way they are > arranged in your brain is the only difference between you and me*". > > I happen to think that's exactly what Alcor should be saying, but the > ghost of the discredited 19th century theory of Vitalism is still haunting > the 21th century and many still think that despite all the scientific > evidence to the contrary the atoms in our bodies must somehow have our name > scratched on them. I suspect Alcor is reluctant to change because they > believe ASC would be bad public relations. But I think reality is more > important than PR and the Vitalism superstition could get people killed. > > >> > *Guided nanotech may be an answer* >> > > I don't think there is any "may" about it, without Nanotech there is no > hope. Incidentally back in 1986 in Drexler's classic book on Nanotechnology > "Engines Of Creation" he describes something very similar to ASC that > people alive today could use right now to achieve immortality, or something > close to it. > > >> > *My concern about hormone simulation is not about the speed of their >> signalling, but the entraining and dynamics of the entire system. While >> some hormones are easy to model (like insulin), many interact widely in >> nertworked hormonal systems, like growth hormones, stress hormones, or >> female reproductive hotmoens. These hormonal feedback cycles interact not >> only with the body but also with the brain/mind.* >> > > If future technology is not good enough to model hormonal feedback cycles > then it certainly isn't good enough to repair or replace the 100 trillion > damaged synapses in the human brain and there is no hope, Cryonics patients > are not patients at all they're just frozen dead meat. > > >> *> even if the brain copy + agent manages to eventually make sense of the >> world with all these changes and becomes an autonomous agent itself - it >> will not be "you".* >> > > People, even philosophers, use that personal pronoun with abandon without > giving it a second thought, I do too because right now there is only one > chunk of matter in the observable universe that behaves in a > johnkclarkian way. But that need not always be true because it is caused > not by a scientific law but simply because of a lack of technological > sophistication. When the age of Nanotechnology arrives the entire English > language will need retooling, especially in the way it treats personal > pronouns. > > The only reason I think I'm the same guy I was yesterday is that I > remember being John Clark yesterday, the same thing will be true even in > the age of Nanotechnology, although there could be many people claiming > to be John Clark because they all remember being him yesterday. And all of > them would be correct and have a equally valid claim of being "me". > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed May 6 17:43:20 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 13:43:20 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 10:58 AM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *>Which copy wins the philosophical claim of "being" "me" doesn't worry me.* > Me neither. As far as I'm concerned the more people that remember being me right now the better. > *Which one wins the legal claims of "gets to lock the other copies of me > out of the house I'm living in now", "gets to continue the relationship I > have with my employer right now",* > When technology becomes advanced enough to duplicate something as advanced as a human then they can duplicate anything, even land because you'll almost certainly be a upload living in a virtual world (if the kind people who took the time to revive you know you'd be upset by that knowledge they just won't tell you), and that means economic questions that we think are so important today would be pretty much moot. I'm not saying a revived Cryonics patient won't have problems adjusting, but none of the problems will be as severe as the problem of nonexistence. And that's why I'm signed up for Cryonics, I'll deal with the problems. > > *and most importantly, the social claim of "gets to hang out with my > unduplicated wife and kids"... These worry me a great deal. Enough that I > think I'd like to have a good plan in place to resolve those claim* > That's something for your wife and kids to decide not "you", whatever that personal pronoun means. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Wed May 6 19:21:32 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 20:21:32 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 05/05/2020 17:56, Re Rose wrote: > don't think this will solve the essential problem. I think any upload > is problematic. I believe there are two problems that will be really > hard to solve: first, preserving the cyclic, dynamical environment of > non-neural information available in the body such as hormonal cycles > or feedback from non-neural neurotransmitters (such as from your gut) > is difficult, with no solution on the horizon. Second, your cortex is > specifically wired to accomodate your body, with all its quirks, > balances, habits, accomodations, skillz, and tics. Every human body is > different and each body's cortex learns the characteristics of that > body. While we know the cortex is nearly infinitely able to accomodate > and learn, learning an entirely new corporeal system may not only > overwhelm it, but the being that emerges after this process is highly > likely to?not be "you". I think the clue here is in "your cortex is specifically wired to accomodate your body, with all its quirks, balances, habits, accomodations, skillz, and tics". If the cortex is uploaded successfully, then the upload will contain all the information needed to reproduce these 'quirks, balances, habits, accomodations, skillz, and tics'. The emulated body would take this information, and reproduce the environment that the cortex expects. A bit like a mould, it doesn't matter if you have a positive or a negative impression, you have the same information, and can produce the opposite piece. As for the cyclic, dynamical environment, I don't see how that would be a problem. I've suffered from severe jet-lag before, it didn't make me a different person, and I soon recovered from it. And as we are all basically the same, the detailed differences wouldn't be significant. Certainly not as significant as you are saying, so as to make you a different person. "PS - what would be *really* nice is to save an uploaded copy of the brain along with the crypreserved?body so that any damage to the information in the brain due to the cryopreservation process can be repaired using the upload as a backup. You would have your original body, complete with all its information, plus a brain backup for repair of any neuronal information loss. Yay! Sign me up, please -R" I don't understand this. If you already had an uploaded copy of the brain, there would be no point in having a cryopreserved original. There would be no point in the cryopreservation in the first place, if we could create the upload without it. The point of cryopreservation is that we can't upload brains yet, so it's a way of preserving the information until we can. Once we can upload wet brains, no-one would bother with cryopreservation (assuming the upload process wouldn't destroy the brain, which it probably would). -- Ben Zaiboc From sparge at gmail.com Wed May 6 20:40:45 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 16:40:45 -0400 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: <833B70EB-771C-4B71-AC1E-62B5D57E0026@gmail.com> References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> <017f01d6230b$c5b404d0$511c0e70$@rainier66.com> <833B70EB-771C-4B71-AC1E-62B5D57E0026@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 4:14 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Like I?ve said before, if EVERY country is in debt (and they all do seem > to be), then who owns all that debt? > Anyone or anything that bought those bonds. Governments don't hold much of the debt. It's mostly funds and individuals. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Wed May 6 20:50:55 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 14:50:55 -0600 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> <017f01d6230b$c5b404d0$511c0e70$@rainier66.com> <833B70EB-771C-4B71-AC1E-62B5D57E0026@gmail.com> Message-ID: When the bonds come due the government pays out those obligations with cash on hand, Since they have no cash, they borrow it from the Fed, promising to pay for it with future cash on hand from general revenue. What it ultimately comes down to is they're borrowing against assumed future tax revenue. Which, as I mentioned upthread, works excellently until it suddenly doesn't, though the prevailing assumption seems to be that any event disruptive enough to stop it from working will render any actual repayments moot. On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 2:43 PM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 4:14 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Like I?ve said before, if EVERY country is in debt (and they all do seem >> to be), then who owns all that debt? >> > > Anyone or anything that bought those bonds. Governments don't hold much of > the debt. It's mostly funds and individuals. > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu May 7 01:28:59 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 20:28:59 -0500 Subject: [ExI] good news Message-ID: Just messing around I put 'good news' in the search bar,and guess what? https://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/scientists-map-the-moons-surface/ Those of you who like drugs will be impressed. I think I am going to like this site. A mood lightener. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 7 08:35:34 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 04:35:34 -0400 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> <017f01d6230b$c5b404d0$511c0e70$@rainier66.com> <833B70EB-771C-4B71-AC1E-62B5D57E0026@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 4:53 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> What it ultimately comes down to is they're borrowing against assumed > future tax revenue. Which, as I mentioned upthread, works excellently until > it suddenly doesn't,* > Nice theory but it just doesn't fit the facts. I've been hearing predictions of economic doom from deficit spending all my life, and so has my father. and so has my father's father, but the fact is except for the last 3 years of Bill Clinton's administration (which had a surplus) the US government has run a deficit *every single year* since 1835, and yet the USA still has the most powerful economy in the world. And no matter how beautiful a theory is if it doesn't fit the facts it must be abandoned. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 7 12:31:40 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 08:31:40 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better Message-ID: India is not a country that usually springs to mind when you think of good hygiene practices but even India has handled the COVID-19 pandemic better than the USA has. Much better. India reported its first case of the virus about the same time the US did and its first death occurred just 2 weeks after the first in the US, but as of May 7 at 12:05 GMT India has only had 1,787 deaths, but the USA has had 74,810 deaths. And yet India's population is 3.9 times as large as the US population. And Haiti is the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere but in the entire population of 10.7 million people there has only been 12 deaths, if Haiti had the same population as the US it would have had 368 deaths. I remind you that the US has had 74,810. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 7 12:52:42 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 05:52:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> <017f01d6230b$c5b404d0$511c0e70$@rainier66.com> <833B70EB-771C-4B71-AC1E-62B5D57E0026@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002801d6246e$665be7f0$3313b7d0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 4:53 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat > wrote: > What it ultimately comes down to is they're borrowing against assumed future tax revenue. Which, as I mentioned upthread, works excellently until it suddenly doesn't, >?Nice theory but it just doesn't fit the facts. I've been hearing predictions of economic doom from deficit spending all my life, and so has my father. and so has my father's father, but the fact is except for the last 3 years of Bill Clinton's administration (which had a surplus) the US government has run a deficit every single year since 1835, and yet the USA still has the most powerful economy in the world. And no matter how beautiful a theory is if it doesn't fit the facts it must be abandoned. John K Clark OK, assume the USA will never go broke because it never has. This is good news: the shutdown can last indefinitely. The economy never needs to re-open. Why are we paying taxes at all? Why not just borrow it all? Hey this is easy. Deficits really don?t matter. By the way? what happens when your theory fails? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 7 12:55:15 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 05:55:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002f01d6246e$c12617f0$437247d0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better >?And Haiti is the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere but in the entire population of 10.7 million people there has only been 12 deaths, if Haiti had the same population as the US it would have had 368 deaths. I remind you that the US has had 74,810. John K Clark Neither of those countries have subways (trains I meant, not the sandwich shops.) John you can still probably get them to let you immigrate into Haiti. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Thu May 7 13:14:52 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 09:14:52 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: John- This type of post from you tells me you clearly only use the scientific method when it suits your TDS. Do you honestly think the numbers coming out of India and Haiti have anything to do with them having a better national response to the virus than the US? Also, out of curiosity, are you still opposed to the Swedish approach? On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 8:34 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > India is not a country that usually springs to mind when you think of good > hygiene practices but even India has handled the COVID-19 pandemic better > than the USA has. Much better. India reported its first case of the virus > about the same time the US did and its first death occurred just 2 weeks > after the first in the US, but as of May 7 at 12:05 GMT India has only had > 1,787 deaths, but the USA has had 74,810 deaths. And yet India's population > is 3.9 times as large as the US population. > > And Haiti is the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere but in the > entire population of 10.7 million people there has only been 12 deaths, if > Haiti had the same population as the US it would have had 368 deaths. I > remind you that the US has had 74,810. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 7 13:20:34 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 09:20:34 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <002f01d6246e$c12617f0$437247d0$@rainier66.com> References: <002f01d6246e$c12617f0$437247d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 9:10 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> Neither of those countries have subways (trains I meant, not the > sandwich shops.)* > A typical Indian Train John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Thu May 7 13:23:12 2020 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 07:23:12 -0600 Subject: [ExI] "Crap in the Gap" theories of consciousness (Was re: antiscience from both sides) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I believe you forgot the core of all the falsifiable ?crap in the gap? theories of consciousness: Example of right-wing anti-science: ? Qualia prove I have a ghost/spirit. Example of left-win anti-science: ? We don?t have qualia, it only seems like we do. Brent On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 1:50 PM William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > Examples of right-wing anti-science: > > 1. Creationism. > 2. Global warming denialism. > 3. Anti-environmentalism generally. > 4. Exaggerated claims about fetal development. > 5. Rejection of epidemiology as it pertains to sex, pregnancy, and > sexually transmitted disease. > 6. Rejection of genetics, neurology, and psychology as they pertain to > sex and gender. > 7. Pseudo-biological justifications for racism and sexism. > 8. Supply-side economics, if you count economics as a science. That?s > a whole ?nother discussion. > > Examples of left-wing anti-science: > > 1. Anti-GMO hysteria. > 2. Opposition to nuclear power under any and all circumstances. > 3. Other extremes of environmentalism, with predictions of immediate > doom rather than slow long-term change. > 4. Opposition to space exploration: ?why are we spending money up > there when people are starving down here?? > > Examples of anti-science shared by both left and right: > > 1. Antivax. Started as a left-wing mania, and still more common in > liberal communities, but some of the most prominent advocates are > right-wing politicians, e.g. Kentucky Governor Matt Bevin. > 2. Abuse of statistics regarding crime issues, especially gun control. > Left- and right-wingers draw opposite conclusions from the same data, and > they both go to absurd extremes. Principled statisticians are left crying > in the wilderness. > 3. Suspicion of the enterprise of science: the idea that there are > giant cabals of scientists working in secret with no oversight and ?playing > God? or uncovering ?things we weren?t meant to know.? > 4. Closely related, the common cultural stereotypes of scientists as > arrogant, aloof, and out of touch with the lives of ?regular people.? > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Thu May 7 13:29:51 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 14:29:51 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 07/05/2020 13:52, John K Clark wrote: > India is not a country that usually springs to mind when you think of > good hygiene practices but even India has handled the COVID-19 > pandemic better than the USA has. Much better. India reported its > first case of the virus about the same time the US did and its first > death occurred just 2 weeks after the first in the US, but as of May 7 > at 12:05 GMT India has only had 1,787 deaths, but the USA has had > 74,810 deaths. And yet India's population is 3.9 times as large as the > US population. > > And Haiti is the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere but in the > entire population of 10.7 million people there has only been 12 > deaths, if Haiti had the same population as the US it would have had > 368 deaths. I remind you that the US has had 74,810. Interesting. I can't help wondering if this has more to do with genetics than with different countries' responses? -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 7 13:31:19 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 09:31:19 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 9:18 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote *> This type of post from you tells me you clearly only use the scientific > method when it suits your TDS.* > It's amazing how extensively the Trump Cult has spread and the outrage a post can provoke when a member infers a possible criticism of their savior even if His name is not specifically mentioned. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 7 13:47:00 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 09:47:00 -0400 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: <002801d6246e$665be7f0$3313b7d0$@rainier66.com> References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> <017f01d6230b$c5b404d0$511c0e70$@rainier66.com> <833B70EB-771C-4B71-AC1E-62B5D57E0026@gmail.com> <002801d6246e$665be7f0$3313b7d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 8:55 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > OK, assume the USA will never go broke because it never has. This is > good news: the shutdown can last indefinitely. > The shutdown can't last indefinitely but if necessary mass death can be postponed for a very long time, long enough for a vaccine to be found. Of course to do that the top 1% of the top 1% of the top 1% will have to be more heavily taxed, but Trump would prefer mass death. > *By the way? what happens when your theory fails?* That has happened many times in my life so I'll do exactly what I've always done, I'll look for a better theory. You really should give it a try, the Scientific Method works pretty well. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Thu May 7 13:49:28 2020 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 07:49:28 -0600 Subject: [ExI] "Crap in the Gap" theories of consciousness (Was re: antiscience from both sides) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: And if we'd stop being 'qualia blind', we could discover what it is, in our brain, that has an intrinsic redness quality, finally filling this gap in our understanding of perception of color. This would once and for all easily falsify all these crap in the gap theories. Let me know if our new socratic method test asking: "Are you Qualia Blind " helps with understanding what qualia blindness is. Brent On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 7:23 AM Brent Allsop wrote: > > I believe you forgot the core of all the falsifiable ?crap in the gap? > theories of consciousness: > > > > Example of right-wing anti-science: > > ? "Qualia prove I have a ghost/spirit." > > > > Example of left-wing anti-science: > > ? "We don?t have qualia, it only seems like we do" or "There is a > 'hard mind body' problem." > > Brent > > > On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 1:50 PM William Flynn Wallace > wrote: > >> >> Examples of right-wing anti-science: >> >> 1. Creationism. >> 2. Global warming denialism. >> 3. Anti-environmentalism generally. >> 4. Exaggerated claims about fetal development. >> 5. Rejection of epidemiology as it pertains to sex, pregnancy, and >> sexually transmitted disease. >> 6. Rejection of genetics, neurology, and psychology as they pertain >> to sex and gender. >> 7. Pseudo-biological justifications for racism and sexism. >> 8. Supply-side economics, if you count economics as a science. That?s >> a whole ?nother discussion. >> >> Examples of left-wing anti-science: >> >> 1. Anti-GMO hysteria. >> 2. Opposition to nuclear power under any and all circumstances. >> 3. Other extremes of environmentalism, with predictions of immediate >> doom rather than slow long-term change. >> 4. Opposition to space exploration: ?why are we spending money up >> there when people are starving down here?? >> >> Examples of anti-science shared by both left and right: >> >> 1. Antivax. Started as a left-wing mania, and still more common in >> liberal communities, but some of the most prominent advocates are >> right-wing politicians, e.g. Kentucky Governor Matt Bevin. >> 2. Abuse of statistics regarding crime issues, especially gun >> control. Left- and right-wingers draw opposite conclusions from the same >> data, and they both go to absurd extremes. Principled statisticians are >> left crying in the wilderness. >> 3. Suspicion of the enterprise of science: the idea that there are >> giant cabals of scientists working in secret with no oversight and ?playing >> God? or uncovering ?things we weren?t meant to know.? >> 4. Closely related, the common cultural stereotypes of scientists as >> arrogant, aloof, and out of touch with the lives of ?regular people.? >> >> bill w >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Thu May 7 13:52:25 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 09:52:25 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: John, it's got nothing to do with the Trump cult, it's got to do with the anti-Trump cult. Your distaste for the guy makes you unable to draw logical conclusions as to why India and Haiti have better numbers than the US. Why else would your take away be that the numbers reflect a superior response from two places that are very unlikely to have mounted one. On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 9:46 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 9:18 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote > > *> This type of post from you tells me you clearly only use the scientific >> method when it suits your TDS.* >> > > It's amazing how extensively the Trump Cult has spread and the outrage a > post can provoke when a member infers a possible criticism of their savior > even if His name is not specifically mentioned. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Thu May 7 13:56:04 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 09:56:04 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh come on John, we all know what you're saying. Do you mean to tell us you weren't talking about Trump at all? I don't believe Dylan supports him, and I sure as hell don't. Question: what is the point of these posts from you? Are you looking to change minds? Get a response? You're just a dick? It doesn't seem like discussion is your goal, and that makes you, by definition, a TROLL. On Thu, May 7, 2020, 09:46 John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 9:18 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote > > *> This type of post from you tells me you clearly only use the scientific >> method when it suits your TDS.* >> > > It's amazing how extensively the Trump Cult has spread and the outrage a > post can provoke when a member infers a possible criticism of their savior > even if His name is not specifically mentioned. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu May 7 13:59:17 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 08:59:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: OK, smart guys. Consider this: the data coming from all the countries reporting has to be the worst data set anybody every worked with. I think it's totally useless. Are we imagining that all the countries are using the same standards of reporting? Do we think every station or whatever that could report is doing so? Do we think that China is not lying about the numbers in Wuhan? And on and on. I'll bet that you could find that any two places in America are doing things differently. When you read an experiment, you look closely at the Methods section: how did they obtain their data? Is this possible in any, much less all the countries reporting virus data? LOL ROF bill w On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 8:47 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 9:18 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote > > *> This type of post from you tells me you clearly only use the scientific >> method when it suits your TDS.* >> > > It's amazing how extensively the Trump Cult has spread and the outrage a > post can provoke when a member infers a possible criticism of their savior > even if His name is not specifically mentioned. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 7 14:08:13 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 07:08:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001401d62478$f2b5bb40$d82131c0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 9:18 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > wrote > This type of post from you tells me you clearly only use the scientific method when it suits your TDS. >?It's amazing how extensively the Trump Cult has spread? John K Clark John you still haven?t figured out you are one of those helping spread that. But we have. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 7 14:09:30 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 07:09:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <002f01d6246e$c12617f0$437247d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001b01d62479$20612b10$61238130$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 9:10 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > Neither of those countries have subways (trains I meant, not the sandwich shops.) A typical Indian Train John K Clark There ya go. If New Yorkers would ride on top of the trains instead of inside them, they would be safer up there? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Thu May 7 14:24:15 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 09:24:15 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: OR they are poor as shit and not testing, while attributing deaths to other causes. Have you seen Indian trains? Slums? Markets? People packed like sardines. SR Ballard > On May 7, 2020, at 7:31 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > > India is not a country that usually springs to mind when you think of good hygiene practices but even India has handled the COVID-19 pandemic better than the USA has. Much better. India reported its first case of the virus about the same time the US did and its first death occurred just 2 weeks after the first in the US, but as of May 7 at 12:05 GMT India has only had 1,787 deaths, but the USA has had 74,810 deaths. And yet India's population is 3.9 times as large as the US population. > > And Haiti is the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere but in the entire population of 10.7 million people there has only been 12 deaths, if Haiti had the same population as the US it would have had 368 deaths. I remind you that the US has had 74,810. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Thu May 7 14:25:42 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 09:25:42 -0500 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> <017f01d6230b$c5b404d0$511c0e70$@rainier66.com> <833B70EB-771C-4B71-AC1E-62B5D57E0026@gmail.com> <002801d6246e$665be7f0$3313b7d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <648A4419-3F5D-438B-8E37-377B1C2D0DF0@gmail.com> You didn?t answer the important question: If borrowing doesn?t matter, why tax at all? SR Ballard > On May 7, 2020, at 8:47 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 8:55 AM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > >> > OK, assume the USA will never go broke because it never has. This is good news: the shutdown can last indefinitely. >> > > The shutdown can't last indefinitely but if necessary mass death can be postponed for a very long time, long enough for a vaccine to be found. Of course to do that the top 1% of the top 1% of the top 1% will have to be more heavily taxed, but Trump would prefer mass death. > > > By the way? what happens when your theory fails? > > That has happened many times in my life so I'll do exactly what I've always done, I'll look for a better theory. You really should give it a try, the Scientific Method works pretty well. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 7 14:36:00 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 07:36:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004c01d6247c$d479e030$7d6da090$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat >?logical conclusions as to why India and Haiti have better numbers than the US. Why else would your take away be that the numbers reflect a superior response from two places that are very unlikely to have mounted one? Dylan Hi Dylan, Sure, that would suggest that the best government response is none: Haiti isn?t doing anything (because it cannot) and has better numbers. But it also depends on how you count. It is unlikely that Haiti came up with the money for test kits. I can think of a pile of stuff Haiti needs a lot more than Covid test kits. There is still plenty of other things that can kill people in Haiti. In the USA, government response to Covid is primarily a state-level call. The worst states are New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, Illinois and California. One can argue that it really isn?t a state-level call, for we have plenty of cases where people are going to closed beaches, local shops are declaring themselves essential and re-opening. I don?t see law enforcement doing anything about it. There aren?t enough state troopers, so? it is probably a city-level call. If so, New York City, Chicago, LA, Boston are the places where the big mistakes are being made. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 7 14:35:41 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 10:35:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 10:18 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Oh come on John, we all know what you're saying. Do you mean to tell us > you weren't talking about Trump at all? I don't believe Dylan supports > him,* > So you're angry at me for saying Dylan was in the Trump Cult but you're not angry at Dylan for saying I had Trump Derangement Syndrome. How does that work? And why didn't we see similar outrage when, as happened several times a week, somebody suggested Obama may be less than perfect back when he was president? > *that makes you, by definition, a TROLL.* Of course, nobody could sincerely believe Trump is an ignorant imbecile because it's so obvious he's knowledgeable and brilliant. John K Clark >> John K Clark >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 7 15:41:15 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 08:41:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >?So you're angry at me for saying Dylan was in the Trump Cult ? John K Clark OK John, we will come clean. You caught us. Everyone on this list is in the Trump cult, except you. You are the only one here who hasn?t joined us. Every one of us, even our European and Australian friends, all joined the Trump cult at one point or another, all of us, except you. You are all alone here, me lad, all alone. For the rest of us, we are all Trump cultist here, all. Come along with us John. Assimilate peacefully. We shall all be united. Resistance is futile. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 7 15:45:31 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 11:45:31 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 9:39 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: * > Interesting. I can't help wondering if this has more to do with > genetics than with different countries' responses?* > What about New Zealand? They have a population of 4.94 million and have had 21 deaths, if they had the same population as the USA they would have only had 1,394 deaths. What about Iceland? They have a population of 364 thousand and have had 10 deaths, if they had the same population as the USA they would have only had 9,010 deaths. What about South Korea? They have a population of 51.7 million and have had 256 deaths, if they had the same population as the USA they would have only had 1,624 deaths. What about Taiwan? They have a population of 23.6 million and have had 6 deaths, if they had the same population as the USA they would have only had 83 deaths. My figure on the number of deaths in the USA badly needs upgrading because it was made way back in the olden days of 3 hours ago, the old number was 74,810, the new number is 74,962 deaths. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Thu May 7 15:49:48 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 11:49:48 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 11:25 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 10:18 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> Oh come on John, we all know what you're saying. Do you mean to tell >> us you weren't talking about Trump at all? I don't believe Dylan supports >> him,* >> > > So you're angry at me for saying Dylan was in the Trump Cult but you're > not angry at Dylan for saying I had Trump Derangement Syndrome. How does > that work? And why didn't we see similar outrage when, as happened several > times a week, somebody suggested Obama may be less than perfect back when > he was president? > No, because as much as I dislike the TDS nomenclature (because it's used as ammo by right-wingers) it seems to describe perfectly the way you act. > > > *that makes you, by definition, a TROLL.* > > > Of course, nobody could sincerely believe Trump is an ignorant imbecile > because it's so obvious he's knowledgeable and brilliant. > What? I don't get it. Are you saying your point of posting is to try and convince people Trump is an ignorant imbecile? If so, you WERE talking about Trump, even though you attacked Dylan and denied it. I thought the post was supposed to be about COVID. My point still stands: your post was pointless and designed only to rile, which makes you a troll. Out of all the posters on this list, your behavior is by FAR the closest to Trump's. You are a bully, and a troll who ignores people's arguments only to insult them. You yell and shout and lie and equivocate and spew ad-hominem attacks. I can only imagine you hate Trump so much because you are working out personal flaws you dislike within yourself. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Thu May 7 15:52:46 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 11:52:46 -0400 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 11:28 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I don?t see anything a bit right wing about how the US government is > running. Do you? > The US has been one of the most right-wing in the first world for a long, long time. We are an extremely conservative country compared to many. It's one of the reasons I think a coup by Trump would be so difficult for him to make work. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Thu May 7 15:53:58 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 11:53:58 -0400 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 1:05 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > > > > >?In terms of spending, both parties are now very similar and have been > for a very long time? Dylan > > > > Ja. I haven?t been able to tell them apart for over 30 years. The two > mainstream parties in the US have marched lockstep to burying the US into a > morass of debt from which extrication is impossible. > > > > In light of that, why would we care about the usual stuff, religion, > immigration, guns and abortion? That soaring debt is a ticking time bomb. > I think student debt is the next bubble to burst. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rocket at earthlight.com Thu May 7 15:55:13 2020 From: rocket at earthlight.com (Re Rose) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 11:55:13 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) Message-ID: Oh dear, no no no! Not ASC ! No no no no no. Nope. Nooooooo. I agree about repair of current crypreserved patients needing Drexler-style nanotech (which might as well be magic at the moment, which I alluded to in my prior post). I think the way forward will be in the design of non-toxic cryoprotectants applied in a homogeneously cooled manner, at a temperature far higher than that of liquid nitrogen. Potentially, that solves the problems of toxicity, fracturing, dehydration, and obviates the need for extensive (and potentially noisy) nanotech repairs. Right now that proposal might seem a sort of magic too, but not quite, as such non-toxic cryoprotectants are on the drawing board even as you read this, as well as possible methods for homogeneous cooling. So hope is out there! But the use of ASC is the exact opposite of preservation of the entire body, it is a technology focused on uploading, which I do not believe will work if the goal is reanimating the same person who went in. Consider that the amount of information needed to be read from the upload (using unknown methods at the moment) has been estimated to take hundreds of years just to read, with no idea how to deconvolute the data. I hear you say, machine learning can do that - but it would have to be unsupervised *if* neural codes vary from person to person, which is unclear at the moment. I think they do vary for sure at the cortical level, (and probably not in the cerebellum, but who cares?) but I haven't proved it so that's simply my opinion. But worse - ASC is complete brain destruction, leaving you reliant on a clean reading of the data within that brain. And while we can map the geography of the connectome clearly from an ASC preserved brain (if we can Eye-Wire all the neurons! And glia....) we can't read the chemical states, plus we lose all the dynamics of the smaller dendritic spines. The chemical states include both the ionic state of each neuron, plus the pattern of neurotransmitter concentrations. That information is all lost. Forever. So, I say a huge *ACK!* to aldehyde stabilized cryopreservation, beautiful as it is. It's a great tool to stabilize the tissue and to study the connectome, no question. Brilliant. But if you ever want to be "you" again - keep your brain intact !!! As per your comment re: hormonal cycles, yes. I think it may be impossible to model a system that has inherent chaotic components. Thats why I want to keep my entire body, and not be uploaded. I don't think an uploaded copy of my brain pattern in any way will or ever can be "me". The slow-replacement theory isn't persuasive, as each component acclimates to the surroundings slowly which I think is ok. That's not a massive uploading event. The thought-experiment I trust the most, which is against uploading, is the one where you consider uploading a copy made before you are dead into a new body. If you aren't "in" that new agent animated by your copy (since you're still alive) -- well, how will you ever be able to be "in" that or any other copy ? IMHO, you can't. Not ever. A copy is a copy. Fun and maybe comforting for your surviving friends and family, and to be sure it is an agent in its own right - its just not you. --Regina ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 09:33:34 -0400 From: John Clark To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 6:49 PM Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *I think fractures are undesirable, and although they may seem easy to > repair if they're "clean" - even so, that's a lot of repairing.* > Sure, any damage is undesirable but the sad fact is even if a patient is cryopreserved using the best methods available today a huge amount of damage will be caused and a massive amount of repairing (or replacing) will be needed to bring the person back to consciousness. And cracks are by far the least serious form of damage because it is the easiest to fix or replace, if you can't fix cracks then you have no hope of fixing the far more serious forms of damage. I don't think any Cryonics patient will be revived until we have Drexler style Nanotechnology and can control matter at the atomic level. The key question is if Information Theoretic Death has occurred, if the information on what makes you be you is lost then you're dead. That's why I think Alcor should switch from the vitrification process it uses now to ASC (Aldehyde Stabilized Cryopreservation). In ASC in addition to a cryoprotectant a brain is also infused with the chemical Glutaraldehyde, it's the stuff in wart removing lotion you can get over the counter in any drugstore. Glutaraldehyde kills cells because it crosslinks proteins, but that very cross-linking holds things in place even when they're cooled down to liquid nitrogen temperatures, and so Information Theoretic Death is avoided. ASC has been used on a entire pig's brain which was then cooled down to near liquid nitrogen temperatures and then warmed back up to room temperature and sliced into thin sections and sent to a electron microscope. The result was beautiful pictures of synapses and other brain structures that are far superior to the pictures Alcor's current vitrification process can produce, and there is no reason to think molecular-level information wouldn't be preserved too. It's even more impressive when you consider that the pictures were made after rewarming because most of the damage happens at the warming stage not the cooling stage, I would have been delighted even if the pictures were made while the brain was still frozen because I'd be willing to let future technology worry about warming, but this is even better. Cryonics for uploaders: The Brain Preservation Prize has been won < https://turingchurch.net/cryonics-for-uploaders-the-brain-preservation-prize-has-been-won-cebbe98c241a > Nevertheless Alcor has resisted changing over to ASC, I suspect the reason for their hesitation is that if they did so they would implicitly be saying "*we're not even trying to bring that frozen body back to life, we're just trying to preserve the information in it because information on how the atoms are arranged in my brain are different from the way they are arranged in your brain is the only difference between you and me*". I happen to think that's exactly what Alcor should be saying, but the ghost of the discredited 19th century theory of Vitalism is still haunting the 21th century and many still think that despite all the scientific evidence to the contrary the atoms in our bodies must somehow have our name scratched on them. I suspect Alcor is reluctant to change because they believe ASC would be bad public relations. But I think reality is more important than PR and the Vitalism superstition could get people killed. > > *Guided nanotech may be an answer* > I don't think there is any "may" about it, without Nanotech there is no hope. Incidentally back in 1986 in Drexler's classic book on Nanotechnology "Engines Of Creation" he describes something very similar to ASC that people alive today could use right now to achieve immortality, or something close to it. > > *My concern about hormone simulation is not about the speed of their > signalling, but the entraining and dynamics of the entire system. While > some hormones are easy to model (like insulin), many interact widely in > nertworked hormonal systems, like growth hormones, stress hormones, or > female reproductive hotmoens. These hormonal feedback cycles interact not > only with the body but also with the brain/mind.* > If future technology is not good enough to model hormonal feedback cycles then it certainly isn't good enough to repair or replace the 100 trillion damaged synapses in the human brain and there is no hope, Cryonics patients are not patients at all they're just frozen dead meat. > *> even if the brain copy + agent manages to eventually make sense of the > world with all these changes and becomes an autonomous agent itself - it > will not be "you".* > People, even philosophers, use that personal pronoun with abandon without giving it a second thought, I do too because right now there is only one chunk of matter in the observable universe that behaves in a johnkclarkian way. But that need not always be true because it is caused not by a scientific law but simply because of a lack of technological sophistication. When the age of Nanotechnology arrives the entire English language will need retooling, especially in the way it treats personal pronouns. The only reason I think I'm the same guy I was yesterday is that I remember being John Clark yesterday, the same thing will be true even in the age of Nanotechnology, although there could be many people claiming to be John Clark because they all remember being him yesterday. And all of them would be correct and have a equally valid claim of being "me". John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Thu May 7 15:58:26 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 09:58:26 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Trump is an ignorant imbecile. But he's not the reason that large cities with Democrat leadership are having really bad COVID outcomes. On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 9:26 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 10:18 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> Oh come on John, we all know what you're saying. Do you mean to tell >> us you weren't talking about Trump at all? I don't believe Dylan supports >> him,* >> > > So you're angry at me for saying Dylan was in the Trump Cult but you're > not angry at Dylan for saying I had Trump Derangement Syndrome. How does > that work? And why didn't we see similar outrage when, as happened several > times a week, somebody suggested Obama may be less than perfect back when > he was president? > > > *that makes you, by definition, a TROLL.* > > > Of course, nobody could sincerely believe Trump is an ignorant imbecile > because it's so obvious he's knowledgeable and brilliant. > > John K Clark > > > > >>> John K Clark >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 7 15:59:55 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 08:59:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00c601d62488$8d7055f0$a85101d0$@rainier66.com> On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 9:39 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > wrote: > Interesting. I can't help wondering if this has more to do with genetics than with different countries' responses? Hi Ben, someone should try to plot per capita caseload against per capita international travelers. Haiti doesn?t have many of those. The US has a lot of them. That might end up being one of the best predictors of case load we can get. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 7 15:59:51 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 11:59:51 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 11:44 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *> OK John, we will come clean. You caught us. Everyone on this list is > in the Trump cult, except you. * > OK Spike, I will come clean. You caught me. Nobody on this list has Trump Derangement Syndrome except for me. And I'm a Troll too and operate a covert false flag operation because nobody could sincerely believe Trump was as dumb as dogshit when it's so obvious he's very sharp. As sharp as a beach ball. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 7 16:08:27 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 09:08:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00e801d62489$be947c50$3bbd74f0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 11:25 AM John Clark via extropy-chat > wrote: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 10:18 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat > wrote: > Oh come on John, we all know what you're saying. Do you mean to tell us you weren't talking about Trump at all? I don't believe Dylan supports him, So you're angry at me for saying Dylan was in the Trump Cult? John >?No, because as much as I dislike the TDS nomenclature (because it's used as ammo by right-wingers) it seems to describe perfectly the way you act? Will You are all alone here John. The rest of us, and all of America, all of the rest of the world, have joined the cult. You are the last known non-cultist. Come along with us John. Resistance is futile. Assimilate peacefully. And the world will live as one. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu May 7 16:13:50 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 11:13:50 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What about? Yeah. what about reading my post? These data are way beyond suspect, and, I think, useless. bill w On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 10:51 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 9:39 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > * > Interesting. I can't help wondering if this has more to do with >> genetics than with different countries' responses?* >> > > What about New Zealand? They have a population of 4.94 million and have > had 21 deaths, if they had the same population as the USA they would have > only had 1,394 deaths. > > What about Iceland? They have a population of 364 thousand and have had 10 > deaths, if they had the same population as the USA they would have only had > 9,010 deaths. > > What about South Korea? They have a population of 51.7 million and have > had 256 deaths, if they had the same population as the USA they would have > only had 1,624 deaths. > > What about Taiwan? They have a population of 23.6 million and have had 6 > deaths, if they had the same population as the USA they would have only had > 83 deaths. > > My figure on the number of deaths in the USA badly needs upgrading because > it was made way back in the olden days of 3 hours ago, the old number was > 74,810, the new number is 74,962 deaths. > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 7 16:14:28 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 12:14:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 11:59 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> What? I don't get it. Are you saying your point of posting is to try > and convince people Trump is an ignorant imbecile? If so, you WERE talking > about Trump, * Well Duh! > *and spew ad-hominem attacks* Boy, I'm sure glad you never do anything like that! > *You are a bully, and a troll* [...] *You yell and shout and lie* [...] *you > are working out personal flaws you dislike within yourself* You hurt my feelings you big bad intellectual bully, I'm going to go to bed and cry myself to sleep. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu May 7 16:16:36 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 11:16:36 -0500 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I don't know who wrote that, but I didn't. We are certainly, among all nations, among the most conservative sexually, as I posted before. bill w On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 11:08 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 11:28 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I don?t see anything a bit right wing about how the US government is >> running. Do you? >> > > The US has been one of the most right-wing in the first world for a long, > long time. We are an extremely conservative country compared to many. > It's one of the reasons I think a coup by Trump would be so difficult for > him to make work. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 7 16:22:46 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 12:22:46 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 11:45 AM John Clark wrote: > My figure on the number of deaths in the USA badly needs upgrading > because it was made way back in the olden days of 3 hours ago, the old > number was 74,810, the new number is 74,962 deaths. > And that number is also wrong because its 33 minutes old, the new figure is 75,490 deaths. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Thu May 7 16:23:45 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 12:23:45 -0400 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Unfortunately, it needs to be burst, and the federal backstop on student loans needs to be removed. Between the pressure on universities from CV-19 and removing the federal loan backstop, you would see tuition prices drop in a hurry. On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 12:15 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 1:05 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf >> Of *Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat >> >> >> >> >?In terms of spending, both parties are now very similar and have been >> for a very long time? Dylan >> >> >> >> Ja. I haven?t been able to tell them apart for over 30 years. The two >> mainstream parties in the US have marched lockstep to burying the US into a >> morass of debt from which extrication is impossible. >> >> >> >> In light of that, why would we care about the usual stuff, religion, >> immigration, guns and abortion? That soaring debt is a ticking time bomb. >> > > I think student debt is the next bubble to burst. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu May 7 16:24:36 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 11:24:36 -0500 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Student debt is just crazy. Lesser countries offer free education to all. Here a medical doctor can start his practice hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. No wonder he or she doesn't want to go the Mississippi Delta, for instance. No big money there. Excuse all the debt and lower the costs of education. (Yes, I know. Lawmakers will be flooded with lobbyists representing universities etc.) Do lobbyists run this country? New thread? bill w On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 11:16 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 1:05 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf >> Of *Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat >> >> >> >> >?In terms of spending, both parties are now very similar and have been >> for a very long time? Dylan >> >> >> >> Ja. I haven?t been able to tell them apart for over 30 years. The two >> mainstream parties in the US have marched lockstep to burying the US into a >> morass of debt from which extrication is impossible. >> >> >> >> In light of that, why would we care about the usual stuff, religion, >> immigration, guns and abortion? That soaring debt is a ticking time bomb. >> > > I think student debt is the next bubble to burst. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rocket at earthlight.com Thu May 7 16:24:30 2020 From: rocket at earthlight.com (Re Rose) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 12:24:30 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) Message-ID: To Darin, I think these are interesting legal points, as I would not want to be battling with a slew of uploads as to who gets to live my life and who gets to be my slave - or die. To John, I think you've gotten to technological magic, and I do not believe in any case that we either live in a simulation or that we would be happy in one. I don't think a simulation will ever get creative enough to be human (ok, don't talk to me about Alpha GO. I can take either side of that argument, but overall I think this side has more logical points). We've come a long way since ELISA, by now we have all seen algorithms that find unexpected and innovative solutions, like the chatbots who designed their own language, or the machines self-playing old Atari games that found ways to get superhuman scores by twisting the rules of the game. But even in those cases you can see the innovation came from non-human computer abilities, like iterative speed; or by setting unrealistic goal states. In any case I do not care to come back in a simulation or game, to me that would be the antithesis of being human~ To Ben, if he or anyone else is actually reading this far down, that's an interesting idea, that the agent body would accomodate to the brain. I like it! However - its calling on technology that is not defined in any way, so I have to call it out as magic too at the moment. Unknown if its possible, or if a newly uploaded brain would have any ability to direct the design of an agent body. I've seen Hod Lifson's "spidery robot" and that thing is unable to map its body very well at all, and, well....I'd just rather not walk like that :) I stand by my hormone objection, as I think it would be difficult to re-entrain all the hormone cycles in a person. While jet lag, hunger (insulin) cycles, etc are simple and easily re-entrained, many others are not (PCOS, mood disorders, some infertility, and estrogen dominant migraine are a few that come to mind easily, there are others), and we can't forget that the hormone cycles interact - another level of feedback. Reproduction of chaotic systems is notoriously difficult as they are STIC (sensitive to initial conditions). AFAIK that problem has not been solved except by mapping the system grossly into stable regimes, and finding ways to force a system from one regime to another, which has been a difficult class of engineering problems to solve. Perhaps when we can do that for people with migraines or PCOS or similar, we can reconsider this issue in the light of reanimation. best Regina ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 13:43:20 -0400 From: John Clark To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 10:58 AM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *>Which copy wins the philosophical claim of "being" "me" doesn't worry me.* > Me neither. As far as I'm concerned the more people that remember being me right now the better. > *Which one wins the legal claims of "gets to lock the other copies of me > out of the house I'm living in now", "gets to continue the relationship I > have with my employer right now",* > When technology becomes advanced enough to duplicate something as advanced as a human then they can duplicate anything, even land because you'll almost certainly be a upload living in a virtual world (if the kind people who took the time to revive you know you'd be upset by that knowledge they just won't tell you), and that means economic questions that we think are so important today would be pretty much moot. I'm not saying a revived Cryonics patient won't have problems adjusting, but none of the problems will be as severe as the problem of nonexistence. And that's why I'm signed up for Cryonics, I'll deal with the problems. ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 20:21:32 +0100 From: Ben Zaiboc To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Subject: Re: [ExI] Essential Upload Data Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed On 05/05/2020 17:56, Re Rose wrote: > don't think this will solve the essential problem. I think any upload > is problematic. I believe there are two problems that will be really > hard to solve: first, preserving the cyclic, dynamical environment of > non-neural information available in the body such as hormonal cycles > or feedback from non-neural neurotransmitters (such as from your gut) > is difficult, with no solution on the horizon. Second, your cortex is > specifically wired to accomodate your body, with all its quirks, > balances, habits, accomodations, skillz, and tics. Every human body is > different and each body's cortex learns the characteristics of that > body. While we know the cortex is nearly infinitely able to accomodate > and learn, learning an entirely new corporeal system may not only > overwhelm it, but the being that emerges after this process is highly > likely to?not be "you". I think the clue here is in "your cortex is specifically wired to accomodate your body, with all its quirks, balances, habits, accomodations, skillz, and tics". If the cortex is uploaded successfully, then the upload will contain all the information needed to reproduce these 'quirks, balances, habits, accomodations, skillz, and tics'. The emulated body would take this information, and reproduce the environment that the cortex expects. A bit like a mould, it doesn't matter if you have a positive or a negative impression, you have the same information, and can produce the opposite piece. As for the cyclic, dynamical environment, I don't see how that would be a problem. I've suffered from severe jet-lag before, it didn't make me a different person, and I soon recovered from it. And as we are all basically the same, the detailed differences wouldn't be significant. Certainly not as significant as you are saying, so as to make you a different person. "PS - what would be *really* nice is to save an uploaded copy of the brain along with the crypreserved?body so that any damage to the information in the brain due to the cryopreservation process can be repaired using the upload as a backup. You would have your original body, complete with all its information, plus a brain backup for repair of any neuronal information loss. Yay! Sign me up, please -R" I don't understand this. If you already had an uploaded copy of the brain, there would be no point in having a cryopreserved original. There would be no point in the cryopreservation in the first place, if we could create the upload without it. The point of cryopreservation is that we can't upload brains yet, so it's a way of preserving the information until we can. Once we can upload wet brains, no-one would bother with cryopreservation (assuming the upload process wouldn't destroy the brain, which it probably would). -- Ben Zaiboc ------------------------------ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 7 16:27:12 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 09:27:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <010001d6248c$5d32ccc0$17986640$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] antiscience from both sides On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 1:05 PM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: In light of that, why would we care about the usual stuff, religion, immigration, guns and abortion? That soaring debt is a ticking time bomb? spike >?I think student debt is the next bubble to burst? I agree, Will. A lot of those loans are unsecured, used to finance plenty of worthless degrees. What happens if it becomes in vogue to default on the student loans? Who is left holding the bag? Will it change the rules on who gets student loans in the future? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 7 16:56:12 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 09:56:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <013a01d62490$6a386660$3ea93320$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat ? > OK John, we will come clean. You caught us. Everyone on this list is in the Trump cult, except you. >?OK Spike, I will come clean. You caught me. Nobody on this list has Trump Derangement Syndrome except for me. ? John K Clark It isn?t too late. Join us John. You are all alone here. Assimilate peacefully. And the world will live as one. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Thu May 7 16:59:35 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 12:59:35 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <00c601d62488$8d7055f0$a85101d0$@rainier66.com> References: <00c601d62488$8d7055f0$a85101d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Yes, most of the examples John gave were islands (with SK essentially one since NK cuts them off at the end of the peninsula. The Asian examples also have prior experience with SARS in terms of contact tracing and masks. There has also been no talk of racial/age demographics and how many people in those populations have one or more comorbidities compared to the US. The US and Europe also allowed in tons of people from China which the CCP was happy to allow out of country and also spread propaganda like their Italian video pleading with people to go hug a Chinese person. Rather than do any detailed analysis, it's easier to just fall back on the "Orangeman bad" method of analysis. On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 12:40 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 9:39 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > *> **Interesting.* *I can't help wondering if this has more to do with > genetics than with different countries' responses?* > > > > > > Hi Ben, someone should try to plot per capita caseload against per capita > international travelers. Haiti doesn?t have many of those. The US has a > lot of them. That might end up being one of the best predictors of case > load we can get. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 7 17:22:38 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 10:22:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <015d01d62494$1bf63b90$53e2b2b0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Darin Sunley via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better >?But he's not the reason that large cities with Democrat leadership are having really bad COVID outcomes? Darin Hi Darin, if one makes any negative comment about Trump and follows it with any sentence which contains the word ?but? then you have already assimilated. John you are the last one left, the last one. All alone. Join our cult. Resistance is futile. Darin what we need are studies with case load as a function of some factor which has promise of correlations, such as population density, reliance on mass transit (riding on top of a train doesn?t count (that?s an open-air environment (we have zero known cases where anyone on the back of a motorcycle or snowmobile with a Covid positive driver caught it that way.))) We may learn that this virus doesn?t know or care what form of government is in charge. It spreads best where there are a lot of humans in small confined spaces, such as one might find in high-rise apartments in big cities, particularly ones with crowded subways, where riding on top is not an option. I don?t know how to get data to make such comparisons, but I suppose we could do it by county. We do have those numbers. Let?s take the top five counties from the Johns Hopkins site (ja I know, ancient history, those numbers are 23 minutes ago) but it is the best we have. OK then, the top five counties in the Johns Hopkins site: cases deaths p/mi^2 population cases per capita deaths per capita cases-mi^2/person deaths-mi^2/person Queens 53692 4213 12556 2235370 0.02401929 0.001884699 1.91297E-06 1.50103E-07 Cook 46689 2004 3200 5150000 0.009065825 0.000389126 2.83307E-06 1.21602E-07 Kings 46139 4194 72918 2560000 0.018023047 0.001638281 2.47169E-07 2.24674E-08 Bronx 39587 3046 24198 1392000 0.028438937 0.002188218 1.17526E-06 9.04297E-08 Naussau 37350 1891 2958 1341500 0.027841968 0.001409616 9.41243E-06 4.76544E-07 Suffolk 35543 1522 630 1493350 0.02380085 0.001019185 3.77791E-05 1.61775E-06 Dang, now I realize why this is so hard to compare: these population densities are wacky: they contain huge metro areas plus a lot of unpopulated land area. OK damn, that wasn?t very informative, because it compares apples and oranges. Which brings up the real question: why the heck not compare apples and oranges? They are different, why not compare those two? The next thing is that these critical areas all have mass transit hauling people way out there. We need to think of some kind of metric to compare dense population areas to sparse ones. We may find out that government response is nearly irrelevant. Population density is what really matters. We need to look at this from the virus? point of view. Which party do most Covid viruses follow? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Thu May 7 17:38:41 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 13:38:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: John, a serious question, what is the point of constantly posting updated US numbers here? Even if we suppose the IFR is close to the flu, there are still unfortunately going to be some deaths here. Although you'll probably again label me a Trump supporter, I'd also point out that US hospitals are incentivized financially to report CV-19 deaths instead of other causes. NY is particularly incentivized under their reporting system: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/04/24/fact-check-medicare-hospitals-paid-more-covid-19-patients-coronavirus/3000638001/ On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 1:33 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 11:45 AM John Clark wrote: > > > My figure on the number of deaths in the USA badly needs upgrading >> because it was made way back in the olden days of 3 hours ago, the old >> number was 74,810, the new number is 74,962 deaths. >> > > And that number is also wrong because its 33 minutes old, the new figure > is 75,490 deaths. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Thu May 7 17:58:14 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 13:58:14 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020, 12:48 John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 11:44 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > >> *> OK John, we will come clean. You caught us. Everyone on this list is >> in the Trump cult, except you. * >> > > OK Spike, I will come clean. You caught me. Nobody on this list has Trump > Derangement Syndrome except for me. And I'm a Troll too and operate a > covert false flag operation because nobody could sincerely believe Trump > was as dumb as dogshit when it's so obvious he's very sharp. As sharp as > a beach ball. > I have never seen anyone on this list say that Trump is smart. Even Rafal, who is comically right wing, I have never seen call Trump smart. I think we are smart here and that we have too much pride to call a dumb man smart. Trump is clearly good at some sort of manipulation and weaseling, so I would say he may have a kind of practical intelligence. But nobody here calls him smart. I would reckon that the people here who even voted for him could be counted on one hand (I did not and will not vote for him.) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Thu May 7 18:06:42 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 14:06:42 -0400 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: <010001d6248c$5d32ccc0$17986640$@rainier66.com> References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> <010001d6248c$5d32ccc0$17986640$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 2:04 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > What happens if it becomes in vogue to default on the student loans? Who > is left holding the bag? Will it change the rules on who gets student > loans in the future? > > > > spike > > We (US taxpayers) will be left holding the bag, not the banks who are happy to collect their fees with no risk. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 7 18:18:51 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 11:18:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <01c801d6249b$f6407ac0$e2c17040$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] antiscience from both sides >>? I think student debt is the next bubble to burst? Will >?Unfortunately, it needs to be burst, and the federal backstop on student loans needs to be removed. Between the pressure on universities from CV-19 and removing the federal loan backstop, you would see tuition prices drop in a hurry? Dylan Think of all the opportunities we are now seeing for doing education waaaay the heck cheaper than has been done before. The online learning has proven highly effective for some students, and doesn?t cost much of anything. Another take on it: a large and growing cost associated with schools is the legal liability. With online learning, that goes away. Most of the facilities cost goes away. Consider Khan Academy, oh excellent resource, free to all comers, runs on donations. Think of the cost/benefit of that. If we have an effective way to measure students? progress, we wouldn?t really need traditional campuses. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Thu May 7 18:28:20 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 14:28:20 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <015d01d62494$1bf63b90$53e2b2b0$@rainier66.com> References: <015d01d62494$1bf63b90$53e2b2b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Wait spike are you joking about not catching it on top of a train? Confined spaces don't have to be inside. Close proximity should be enough for transfer whether you are inside the train or on top of it. But I couldn't tell if you were being facetious or not -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 7 18:31:35 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 11:31:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01e301d6249d$bd9c4990$38d4dcb0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Re Rose via extropy-chat >?To Ben, if he or anyone else is actually reading this far down, that's an interesting idea, that the agent body would accomodate to the brain. I like it! ? best Regina ------------------------------ Regina of course we are reading all your commentary. You come across as a very pleasant young lady who thinks through her writing. Please continue your valued contribution to our online community, me lass. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 7 18:41:50 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 11:41:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00c601d62488$8d7055f0$a85101d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <020501d6249f$2bd13820$8373a860$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better >?Yes, most of the examples John gave were islands (with SK essentially one since NK cuts them off at the end of the peninsula. The Asian examples also have prior experience with SARS in terms of contact tracing and masks. There has also been no talk of racial/age demographics and how many people in those populations have one or more comorbidities compared to the US. The US and Europe also allowed in tons of people from China which the CCP was happy to allow out of country and also spread propaganda like their Italian video pleading with people to go hug a Chinese person? Hi Dylan, recall how much of an uproar it caused in Britain when someone high up commented that ultimately it would all come down to herd immunity, just as it had with SARS and H1N1. The argument against that notion was that we needed some kind of delaying action until we had a vaccine. However? we might never get one. As far as I know there are still no vaccines against SARS and H1N1. If otherwise, please inform. We have no guarantee this one will get a vaccine either. Somehow we need to calculate how much international travel takes place. That is an important number. >?Rather than do any detailed analysis, it's easier to just fall back on the "Orangeman bad" method of analysis? There is that, but I am suspecting that this virus belongs to some weird third party completely focused on some issue that none of the others follow, such as the No-Bat party, which holds that bats are filthy creatures, fit only for extinction. From the virus? POV, all the mainstream and secondary parties are indistinguishable. They don?t know or care which party is in charge. They only want to find and slay bats. They see humans as a vector or opportunity to reproduce so they can kill more bats. Wouldn?t that theory fit all the observations? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 7 18:52:40 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 11:52:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001501d624a0$af98c3c0$0eca4b40$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat I have never seen anyone on this list say that Trump is smart. Even Rafal, who is comically right wing, I have never seen call Trump smart. I think we are smart here and that we have too much pride to call a dumb man smart? Hi Will, Being a hardcore third party guy, my perspective may be limited value, but take it for what it is worth. I am finding most entertaining how similar are the two guys who will run against each other in November. Other than skin color, I can scarcely distinguish between the two. Can you? How? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 7 18:55:31 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 14:55:31 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 12:23 PM Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> I agree about repair of current crypreserved patients needing > Drexler-style nanotech (which might as well be magic at the moment,* > No. Traveling into the past and Faster Than Light Travel and Perpetual Motion Machines are magic, but Drexler's Machines don't need new physics or better science, they just need more advanced engineering, more specifically smaller fingers. * > which I alluded to in my prior post). I think the way forward will be > in the design of non-toxic cryoprotectants applied in a homogeneously > cooled manner, at a temperature far higher than that of liquid nitrogen.* > It's cheap to store things at -196 degrees Celsius, because that's the temperature of liquid Nitrogen which is only about as expensive as milk. It's very reliable too because such refrigeration requires no moving parts. But if you wanted to avoid cracking you'd have to store brains at -125 degrees Celsius and there is just no simple way to do that without much more complications and lots more ways things could break down and go disastrously wrong. It's just not worth taking that risk to avoid a minor problem like cracking, not to mention it would be much more expensive. > *> But the use of ASC is the exact opposite of preservation of the entire > body, it is a technology focused on uploading,* > It could also be used to make a identical biological brain, I very much doubt that will happen because it would be silly to put a person in such obsolete hardware, but there is no technological reason it couldn't be done. > which I do not believe will work if the goal is reanimating the same > person who went in. > Why not? You don't think the atoms in your body are fundamentally different from the atoms in my body do you? > *Consider that the amount of information needed to be read from the > upload (using unknown methods at the moment) has been estimated to take > hundreds of years just to read,* > The human brain has about 86 billion neurons and 100 trillion synapses; and I found a 10 trillion byte USB 3.0 disk drive for $182. By next year it will be cheaper: Seagate Expansion 10TB USB 3.0 hard drive So with 10 of these you'd get 100 trillion bytes and it would cost less than 2 grand. And it doesn't even need Nanotechnology. It would take USB 3.0 about 7 hours to transfer 10 trillion bytes of information not hundreds of years. And by the age of Nanotechnology I have a hunch we'll have something a tad better than USB 3.0. > *with no idea how to deconvolute the data * If you understand how the human brain works that would be very nice but it's not necessary to revive a Cryonics patient, all you need to know is what atom is suposed to go where. > > *But worse - ASC is complete brain destruction,* > But it's not complete mind destruction as long as the information in that brain has been saved, that's why a computer disk drive crash is not an utter disaster if you have a backup copy. > *we can map the geography of the connectome clearly from an ASC preserved > brain (if we can Eye-Wire all the neurons! And glia....) we can't read the > chemical states, plus we lose all the dynamics of the smaller dendritic > spines.* > Why can't we read them? Chemical states and dendritic spines are made of atoms just like everything else. *> The chemical states include both the ionic state of each neuron, plus > the pattern of neurotransmitter concentrations. That information is all > lost. Forever.* > If all that stuff is important and if for some mysterious reason we can't read it then all forms of Cryonics is hopeless because any form of freezing is going to distort things and it you can't read something you can't repair (or replace) it. *> So, I say a huge *ACK!* to aldehyde stabilized cryopreservation, > beautiful as it is. It's a great tool to stabilize the tissue and to study > the connectome, no question. Brilliant. But if you ever want to be "you" > again - keep your brain intact !!!* > Yes, and electron microscopes show clear as a bell that ASC keeps a brain intact much better than the vitrification process Alcor uses today. > *> As per your comment re: hormonal cycles, yes. I think it may be > impossible to model a system that has inherent chaotic components.* > A double pendulum is a chaotic system but you can play around with a computer model of it just by moving your cursor, and there are plenty of other chaotic systems on the same site: My Physics Lab > *> The slow-replacement theory isn't persuasive, as each component > acclimates to the surroundings slowly which I think is ok. That's not a > massive uploading event.* > I don't know what that means. > *> The thought-experiment I trust the most, which is against uploading, > is the one where you consider uploading a copy made before you are dead > into a new body.* > I don't like that either because the thing I dislike about death is having a last thought, and in that scenario I would still have one. I would only be satisfied if my uploaded copy were made right NOW. How long is "now"? Long enough to have a thought, about a second, maybe two. > *A copy is a copy. Fun and maybe comforting for your surviving friends > and family, and to be sure it is an agent in its own right - its just not > you. * > And if you found out that last night after you went to speed somebody made a copy of you and then destroyed the original would you feel that you were not you, and if so did you feel that way before you found out what had happened? Or suppose the perpetrator got confused and destroyed one but now he isn't sure if it was the copy or the original he destroyed, would you care? I wouldn't. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 7 19:03:13 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 15:03:13 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 2:34 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> John, a serious question, what is the point of constantly posting > updated US numbers here? * > Dylan, a serious question, what is the point of constantly complaining about updated US death numbers here? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu May 7 19:09:26 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 14:09:26 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <015d01d62494$1bf63b90$53e2b2b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!! Please help me in my frustrating ongling war against redundancies. "Proximity' means 'closeness'. 'Close proximity' is redundant, the equivalent of saying 'close closeness'. Please??? "Share in common' in another one. bill w On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 1:59 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Wait spike are you joking about not catching it on top of a train? > Confined spaces don't have to be inside. Close proximity should be enough > for transfer whether you are inside the train or on top of it. But I > couldn't tell if you were being facetious or not > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 7 19:13:13 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 12:13:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <015d01d62494$1bf63b90$53e2b2b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002301d624a3$8e7c2c60$ab748520$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better Wait spike are you joking about not catching it on top of a train? Confined spaces don't have to be inside. Close proximity should be enough for transfer whether you are inside the train or on top of it. But I couldn't tell if you were being facetious or not? Will We don?t really know. I have heard the riskiest thing is a small indoor space with a lot of people, because a sneeze can hang in the air for a long time. The outdoors describes a big space. If someone sneezes near me I would far rather it be outside than in. Given that observation, it would be safer to travel on top of a train than inside one. Do you know of cases where the only contact was outdoors? An example would be someone who lives alone in a single-family house, gets supplies delivered, and walks with others but only outside. Or anyone catching the virus at the beach? Do we have any examples of transmission under those conditions? Do we have any cases of transmission to motorcycle or snowmobile back-seaters? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu May 7 19:32:06 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 14:32:06 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <001501d624a0$af98c3c0$0eca4b40$@rainier66.com> References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <001501d624a0$af98c3c0$0eca4b40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I can scarcely distinguish between the two. Can you? How? spike Well, one is a combover. One excelled at doing nothing as Vice President. bill w On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 2:24 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *Will Steinberg via extropy-chat > > > > I have never seen anyone on this list say that Trump is smart. Even > Rafal, who is comically right wing, I have never seen call Trump smart. I > think we are smart here and that we have too much pride to call a dumb man > smart? > > > > Hi Will, > > > > Being a hardcore third party guy, my perspective may be limited value, but > take it for what it is worth. I am finding most entertaining how similar > are the two guys who will run against each other in November. Other than > skin color, I can scarcely distinguish between the two. Can you? How? > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 7 19:42:13 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 12:42:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005f01d624a7$9bd95be0$d38c13a0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 2:34 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > wrote: > John, a serious question, what is the point of constantly posting updated US numbers here? Dylan, a serious question, what is the point of constantly complaining about updated US death numbers here? John K Clark John, it is offensive because it feels as if you are celebrating those deaths, hoping to leverage them to political advantage. You are all alone here, John. You are the only one left, all alone. The rest of us have all joined the cult, all of us, and the rest of the world too. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Thu May 7 19:41:50 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 15:41:50 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I dunno, I guess I don't see what purpose they serve or what they have to do with transhumanism or even what value they add to a discussion of the current CV-19 outbreak. I'm pretty sure most people on here are following the global numbers on their own. On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 3:34 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 2:34 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> John, a serious question, what is the point of constantly posting >> updated US numbers here? * >> > > Dylan, a serious question, what is the point of constantly complaining > about updated US death numbers here? > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Thu May 7 19:44:44 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 13:44:44 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <001501d624a0$af98c3c0$0eca4b40$@rainier66.com> References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <001501d624a0$af98c3c0$0eca4b40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The funny thing is that, like Bush II before him, Trump had a long career in the public eye long before he became President. And during those careers, prior to them entering the White House, not one of their enemies (and both of them had many) ever credibly called them stupid. "Corrupt", yes. "Venal", yes. Even "rude" and "uncouth". But never "stupid". It seems Republican presidents only ever become stupid once they're elected President. I wonder why that is? On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 1:23 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *Will Steinberg via extropy-chat > > > > I have never seen anyone on this list say that Trump is smart. Even > Rafal, who is comically right wing, I have never seen call Trump smart. I > think we are smart here and that we have too much pride to call a dumb man > smart? > > > > Hi Will, > > > > Being a hardcore third party guy, my perspective may be limited value, but > take it for what it is worth. I am finding most entertaining how similar > are the two guys who will run against each other in November. Other than > skin color, I can scarcely distinguish between the two. Can you? How? > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Thu May 7 20:01:43 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 16:01:43 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <015d01d62494$1bf63b90$53e2b2b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020, 15:42 William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!! > > Please help me in my frustrating ongling war against redundancies. > "Proximity' means 'closeness'. 'Close proximity' is redundant, the > equivalent of saying 'close closeness'. Please??? "Share in common' in > another one. bill w > I don't think it's totally redundant. Proximity could mean people within a few feet, whereas close proximity would mean right up next to each other. 'Near' vs 'very near'. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 7 20:07:03 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 13:07:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <001501d624a0$af98c3c0$0eca4b40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008f01d624ab$13aeaaf0$3b0c00d0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better I can scarcely distinguish between the two. Can you? How? spike Well, one is a combover. One excelled at doing nothing as Vice President. bill w On the contrary sir. One is an epic-fail fashion statement, the other served as personnel director for the Ukraine government in 2016. But other than that, ideologically I can scarcely distinguish the two. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 7 21:25:50 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 17:25:50 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <020501d6249f$2bd13820$8373a860$@rainier66.com> References: <00c601d62488$8d7055f0$a85101d0$@rainier66.com> <020501d6249f$2bd13820$8373a860$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 3:11 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:\ * > As far as I know there are still no vaccines against SARS and H1N1. If > otherwise, please inform. * > H1N1 is the Swine Flu and there is a vaccine for it, several in fact: Swine flu pandemic vaccine There have been no new cases of SARS since 2004 so there is little interest or effort in developing a vaccine. > *ultimately it would all come down to herd immunity,* As for COVID-19 herd immunity almost nothing is known for sure about it. Nobody knows how long it will last and nobody knows what percentage of the population have to get the disease recover and get immune for it to kick in, estimates range from 29% to 74%. Even with the lower figure millions would have to die and tens of millions would become very sick, and for all we know we might have to go through the same thing all over again next year or the year after. But I'm optimistic we'll have a vaccine before then, especially when you consider the massive effort being put into it. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 7 21:41:06 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 14:41:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00c601d62488$8d7055f0$a85101d0$@rainier66.com> <020501d6249f$2bd13820$8373a860$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00df01d624b8$37753960$a65fac20$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via >?As for COVID-19 herd immunity almost nothing is known ?and for all we know we might have to go through the same thing all over again next year or the year after. But I'm optimistic we'll have a vaccine before then?John K Clark Sure, I am cool with optimism. But what if the optimistic view is wrong and the economy is permanently depressed to half what it is now? What happens to all that borrowing, which is now all we can do to service, with the government doing almost nothing else but struggling to collect enough tax to service all that debt we so casually took on when money was easy? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu May 7 22:10:35 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 17:10:35 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <015d01d62494$1bf63b90$53e2b2b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 3:22 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, May 7, 2020, 15:42 William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!! >> >> Please help me in my frustrating ongling war against redundancies. >> "Proximity' means 'closeness'. 'Close proximity' is redundant, the >> equivalent of saying 'close closeness'. Please??? "Share in common' in >> another one. bill w >> > > I don't think it's totally redundant. Proximity could mean people within > a few feet, whereas close proximity would mean right up next to each other. > 'Near' vs 'very near'. > So then, are you going to use 'medium proximity'? How about 'far proximity'? ?? I would certainly vote for 'near' and 'very near' as far better alternatives. billw > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 7 22:18:58 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 18:18:58 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <00df01d624b8$37753960$a65fac20$@rainier66.com> References: <00c601d62488$8d7055f0$a85101d0$@rainier66.com> <020501d6249f$2bd13820$8373a860$@rainier66.com> <00df01d624b8$37753960$a65fac20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 5:43 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>?As for COVID-19 herd immunity almost nothing is known ?and for all we >> know we might have to go through the same thing all over again next year or >> the year after. But I'm optimistic we'll have a vaccine before then?John >> K Clark > > > > *> Sure, I am cool with optimism. * > I know and your enlightened optimism is refreshing, it's your greatest virtue. It's why I enjoy reading most (but not all) of your posts. > *> But what if the optimistic view is wrong and the economy is permanently > depressed to half what it is now? * > Then that would be very bad, but not as bad as millions dying in an attempt to reach herd immunity which might not even work. There is a lot we don't know about COVID-19 so we never know for certain if what we're doing is the right thing or not, but I think it would be wise to keep that option as a last resort, and after all we've only been fighting this thing for a few months. * > What happens to all that borrowing,* > Already nearly 1 in 4 Americans are unemployed with zero money coming in, and they need to eat, and one thing you CAN be certain of is they will flat out refuse to quietly starve to death. They will make trouble. If a vaccine can not be found then the lack of a balanced budget will be the very least of our problems! John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu May 7 22:25:30 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 17:25:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00c601d62488$8d7055f0$a85101d0$@rainier66.com> <020501d6249f$2bd13820$8373a860$@rainier66.com> <00df01d624b8$37753960$a65fac20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: There are lots and lots of people financially hurting, but two come to my mind: hair dressers and barbers. Now I have been cutting my own hair often and can do it again, but these people are not likely to have big bucks in the bank. I think a one on one situation should fall to the customer: his choice as to whether to take the chance. bill w On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 5:21 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 5:43 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >>?As for COVID-19 herd immunity almost nothing is known ?and for all we >>> know we might have to go through the same thing all over again next year or >>> the year after. But I'm optimistic we'll have a vaccine before then?John >>> K Clark >> >> >> >> *> Sure, I am cool with optimism. * >> > > I know and your enlightened optimism is refreshing, it's your greatest > virtue. It's why I enjoy reading most (but not all) of your posts. > > >> *> But what if the optimistic view is wrong and the economy is >> permanently depressed to half what it is now? * >> > > Then that would be very bad, but not as bad as millions dying in an > attempt to reach herd immunity which might not even work. There is a lot we > don't know about COVID-19 so we never know for certain if what we're doing > is the right thing or not, but I think it would be wise to keep that option > as a last resort, and after all we've only been fighting this thing for a > few months. > > * > What happens to all that borrowing,* >> > > Already nearly 1 in 4 Americans are unemployed with zero money coming in, > and they need to eat, and one thing you CAN be certain of is they will flat > out refuse to quietly starve to death. They will make trouble. If a > vaccine can not be found then the lack of a balanced budget will be the > very least of our problems! > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 7 22:26:30 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 18:26:30 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <015d01d62494$1bf63b90$53e2b2b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 3:43 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > Close proximity' is redundant, And your observation is very unique. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 7 22:34:12 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 15:34:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00c601d62488$8d7055f0$a85101d0$@rainier66.com> <020501d6249f$2bd13820$8373a860$@rainier66.com> <00df01d624b8$37753960$a65fac20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <010b01d624bf$a265c3a0$e7314ae0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >?Already nearly 1 in 4 Americans are unemployed with zero money coming in, and they need to eat, and one thing you CAN be certain of is they will flat out refuse to quietly starve to death. They will make trouble. Exactly. We need to open everything and let the people get back to work forthwith. >?If a vaccine can not be found then the lack of a balanced budget will be the very least of our problems! John K Clark Least of our problems? Lack of a balanced budget will be the CAUSE of our problems. That we have failed to balance the budget for decades will mean lenders will not come stampeding to loan the US more money, when it is clear enough we weren?t even paying for what we were already trying to do. We have built a trap for ourselves, then fallen into it. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 7 22:37:06 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 18:37:06 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <001501d624a0$af98c3c0$0eca4b40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 4:15 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *It seems Republican presidents only ever become stupid once they're > elected President.* Are you actually trying to tell me with a straight face that you don't think Trump is stupid and profoundly ignorant??!! > It seems Republican presidents only ever become stupid once they're > elected President. > I don't recall anyone saying the first Bush was stupid. And Nixon had many vices but being stupid was not one of them. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu May 7 22:53:38 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 17:53:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <010b01d624bf$a265c3a0$e7314ae0$@rainier66.com> References: <00c601d62488$8d7055f0$a85101d0$@rainier66.com> <020501d6249f$2bd13820$8373a860$@rainier66.com> <00df01d624b8$37753960$a65fac20$@rainier66.com> <010b01d624bf$a265c3a0$e7314ae0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: That we have failed to balance the budget for decades will mean lenders will not come stampeding to loan the US more money, spike It has never happened before. Why now? As John pointed out, we have never balanced the budget. bill w On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 5:42 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > > > > >?Already nearly 1 in 4 Americans are unemployed with zero money > coming in, and they need to eat, and one thing you CAN be certain of is > they will flat out refuse to quietly starve to death. They will make > trouble. > > > > Exactly. We need to open everything and let the people get back to work > forthwith. > > > > > > >?If a vaccine can not be found then the lack of a balanced budget will be > the very least of our problems! John K Clark > > > > Least of our problems? Lack of a balanced budget will be the CAUSE of our > problems. That we have failed to balance the budget for decades will mean > lenders will not come stampeding to loan the US more money, when it is > clear enough we weren?t even paying for what we were already trying to do. > > > > We have built a trap for ourselves, then fallen into it. > > > > spike > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu May 7 22:55:08 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 17:55:08 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <001501d624a0$af98c3c0$0eca4b40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: John - if you want someone to call Bush stupid, then I will. At the time he was the worst president in history, according to me and lots of folks. Trump passed him like he was standing still. bill w On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 5:48 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 4:15 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *It seems Republican presidents only ever become stupid once they're >> elected President.* > > > Are you actually trying to tell me with a straight face that you don't > think Trump is stupid and profoundly ignorant??!! > > > It seems Republican presidents only ever become stupid once they're >> elected President. >> > > I don't recall anyone saying the first Bush was stupid. And Nixon had many > vices but being stupid was not one of them. > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 7 23:06:56 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 19:06:56 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <010b01d624bf$a265c3a0$e7314ae0$@rainier66.com> References: <00c601d62488$8d7055f0$a85101d0$@rainier66.com> <020501d6249f$2bd13820$8373a860$@rainier66.com> <00df01d624b8$37753960$a65fac20$@rainier66.com> <010b01d624bf$a265c3a0$e7314ae0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 6:43 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >?If a vaccine can not be found then the lack of a balanced budget will be >> the very least of our problems! John K Clark > > *> Least of our problems?* > Yes, the least of our problems. * > Lack of a balanced budget will be the CAUSE of our problems. * > Failure to balance the budget created the COVID-19 virus? * > we have failed to balance the budget for decades* > No. We have failed to balance the budget for nearly 2 centuries. So maybe just maybe a budget deficit doesn't bring about instant economic death after all. But COVID-19 can bring about biological death, not instantly but pretty damn fast, 2,528 Americans died just yesterday and that's the second highest in one day ever bringing the new number to 76,868 dead Americans. John K Clark > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 7 23:13:11 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 16:13:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00c601d62488$8d7055f0$a85101d0$@rainier66.com> <020501d6249f$2bd13820$8373a860$@rainier66.com> <00df01d624b8$37753960$a65fac20$@rainier66.com> <010b01d624bf$a265c3a0$e7314ae0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <016401d624c5$14e138b0$3ea3aa10$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better That we have failed to balance the budget for decades will mean lenders will not come stampeding to loan the US more money, spike It has never happened before. Why now? As John pointed out, we have never balanced the budget. bill w Why now: because other countries are having their own financial difficulties for the same reason we are. They may realize two things simultaneously: the US government has set up an enormous Ponzi scheme, causing it to slip ever further into debt, slipping faster with an accelerating rate of acceleration. The second thing: they need their money now. When that happens, suddenly the lenders stop lending, and start wanting to borrow. That sends the interest rates thru the roof. OK. Then what? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 7 23:23:23 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 16:23:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00c601d62488$8d7055f0$a85101d0$@rainier66.com> <020501d6249f$2bd13820$8373a860$@rainier66.com> <00df01d624b8$37753960$a65fac20$@rainier66.com> <010b01d624bf$a265c3a0$e7314ae0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <019801d624c6$8121d150$836573f0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat > Least of our problems? >?Yes, the least of our problems. > Lack of a balanced budget will be the CAUSE of our problems. >?Failure to balance the budget created the COVID-19 virus? John K Clark No, failure to balance the budget is a reason why we will not and cannot deal effectively with the Covid-19 virus. We will not have the option to stay closed: people have needs, and they need to get to their jobs and businesses, forthwith. What I see in those insisting we keep everything closed is a stunning lack of empathy for those who are not still getting their paychecks. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Thu May 7 23:33:48 2020 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 19:33:48 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020, 2:33 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > John, a serious question, what is the point of constantly posting updated > US numbers here? Even if we suppose the IFR is close to the flu, there are > still unfortunately going to be some deaths here. > I propose that it is because we know nothing else. Even these published numbers are suspect, but there is some comfort in raw numbers. The hope that even uncertainty has a number that eventually all the numbers can be known and it will make sense. That said, it may be a dangerous delusion. We try to find "sense" in the distribution of prime numbers; we'll make up convoluted patterns when we can't find anything obvious. I see John's death count numbers as an invitation to explain disparity between "normalized" percentages or per capita or per day. Any relation in this data would propose a pattern.. any pattern constrains the chaos. I know, everyone assumes John has an axe to grind (so? doesn't everyone?) but constantly telling him to stop talking because you assume the point he might make says you don't want to find anything else. Or turn the conversation to whatever topic interests you. Despite repeatedly being called a troll (even by me) he continues to contribute to this list. In this isolation-induced boredom and frustration, can we try to be understanding? If you really don't think that's possible, I suggest learning how your email client can filter messages you don't want to read. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Fri May 8 00:09:20 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 20:09:20 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <001501d624a0$af98c3c0$0eca4b40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: John--see? Most of us don't like Trump. I'm sort of shocked that Spike does, because Trump is just such an in-your-face anti-intelligence dumbass. For Rafal, I understand, because Rafal probably has a homemade fasces sitting over his mantel. ;) Anyway I don't really think anyone else here is pro Trump. He is a cretin and a fool and a huge idiot. But also president, so I try to deal with it. And I don't muddy up the waters here with that bullshit, because I want to talk about cryogenics and consciousness and other cool stuff. On Thu, May 7, 2020, 19:00 William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > John - if you want someone to call Bush stupid, then I will. At the time > he was the worst president in history, according to me and lots of folks. > Trump passed him like he was standing still. > > bill w > > On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 5:48 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 4:15 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> > *It seems Republican presidents only ever become stupid once they're >>> elected President.* >> >> >> Are you actually trying to tell me with a straight face that you don't >> think Trump is stupid and profoundly ignorant??!! >> >> > It seems Republican presidents only ever become stupid once they're >>> elected President. >>> >> >> I don't recall anyone saying the first Bush was stupid. And Nixon had >> many vices but being stupid was not one of them. >> >> John K Clark >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 8 00:18:56 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 17:18:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <001501d624a0$af98c3c0$0eca4b40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <01bf01d624ce$43796360$ca6c2a20$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better John--see? Most of us don't like Trump. I'm sort of shocked that Spike does? No one is more shocked than I am. Do explain how you came to that conclusion please. I was a Johnson voter. Both of the mainstream candidates disqualified themselves in my view. Trump made it clear enough that he had no intention of serious work on balancing the budget, his opponent even less so, with the addition that she had already abused power with the personal email server. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Fri May 8 01:34:45 2020 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 21:34:45 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <01bf01d624ce$43796360$ca6c2a20$@rainier66.com> References: <01bf01d624ce$43796360$ca6c2a20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Oh no, the email server. Now you?ve done it Will. This is partially how we got to a ban on T***p or politics or whatever it was around here. Let?s not hear more about the supposed email server of doom. I?d settle for a resumption of the ban to get there. > On May 7, 2020, at 8:19 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > > > > On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat > > Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better > > John--see? Most of us don't like Trump. I'm sort of shocked that Spike does? > > No one is more shocked than I am. Do explain how you came to that conclusion please. > > I was a Johnson voter. Both of the mainstream candidates disqualified themselves in my view. Trump made it clear enough that he had no intention of serious work on balancing the budget, his opponent even less so, with the addition that she had already abused power with the personal email server. > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Fri May 8 02:33:51 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 21:33:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <015d01d62494$1bf63b90$53e2b2b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <74E2D949-B819-4DCD-9DF8-3005744B19AE@gmail.com> I think ?close proximity? is entirely legitimate. It?s like the difference between ?nearby? and ?really close?. SR Ballard > On May 7, 2020, at 2:09 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!! > > Please help me in my frustrating ongling war against redundancies. "Proximity' means 'closeness'. 'Close proximity' is redundant, the equivalent of saying 'close closeness'. Please??? "Share in common' in another one. bill w > >> On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 1:59 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: >> Wait spike are you joking about not catching it on top of a train? Confined spaces don't have to be inside. Close proximity should be enough for transfer whether you are inside the train or on top of it. But I couldn't tell if you were being facetious or not >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Fri May 8 02:44:38 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 21:44:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <010b01d624bf$a265c3a0$e7314ae0$@rainier66.com> References: <00c601d62488$8d7055f0$a85101d0$@rainier66.com> <020501d6249f$2bd13820$8373a860$@rainier66.com> <00df01d624b8$37753960$a65fac20$@rainier66.com> <010b01d624bf$a265c3a0$e7314ae0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <0938F98C-F7FE-424B-A8B0-EB4E655C1BA5@gmail.com> Spike, I think you?re failing to realize this: If we wanted to, we could take the amount of the US debt and just... print that many dollars and just pay. Poof. Debt disappears in a puff of smoke. Money only exists because we all agree it exists. It has no intrinsic worth, beyond maybe butt wiping and kindling. SR Ballard > On May 7, 2020, at 5:34 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat > > > >?Already nearly 1 in 4 Americans are unemployed with zero money coming in, and they need to eat, and one thing you CAN be certain of is they will flat out refuse to quietly starve to death. They will make trouble. > > Exactly. We need to open everything and let the people get back to work forthwith. > > > >?If a vaccine can not be found then the lack of a balanced budget will be the very least of our problems! John K Clark > > Least of our problems? Lack of a balanced budget will be the CAUSE of our problems. That we have failed to balance the budget for decades will mean lenders will not come stampeding to loan the US more money, when it is clear enough we weren?t even paying for what we were already trying to do. > > We have built a trap for ourselves, then fallen into it. > > spike > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Fri May 8 03:02:59 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 22:02:59 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) In-Reply-To: <01e301d6249d$bd9c4990$38d4dcb0$@rainier66.com> References: <01e301d6249d$bd9c4990$38d4dcb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <245A404D-F09D-4FA3-9A07-39B0094E59DD@gmail.com> I don?t think living in a simulation is synonymous with every person you meet being a simulated person (not originating from born person. It could be quite possible that all or most of the other people you meet are uploads. And does the cashier at upload McDonalds really need to be a non-simulated (?real?) person? Most people already treat cashiers like robots and sub-humans, so why not give that ?job? to actual robots. It?s not as if you have to worry about wages in an uploaded economy. Creation of material goods and foods would be trivial. It should, in that case, be very possible to create very new things which are simply not possible in our physical world. I fail to see how that would be unsatisfying. If you can upload a brain, you can upload a perfect copy of Everest with everything being completely realistic, including the changes to your brain & body at higher altitude. If only real life is real enough, we could simulate the entire world from our photographs, weather reports, etc. I think the fun of the idea of uploading comes with the ability to make things both hyper realistic as well as completely fantastical, and a type of mastery over one?s mental and physical state. SR Ballard > On May 7, 2020, at 1:31 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Re Rose via extropy-chat > > >?To Ben, if he or anyone else is actually reading this far down, that's an interesting idea, that the agent body would accomodate to the brain. I like it! ? > > best > Regina > > ------------------------------ > > > > Regina of course we are reading all your commentary. You come across as a very pleasant young lady who thinks through her writing. Please continue your valued contribution to our online community, me lass. > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Fri May 8 03:13:16 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 22:13:16 -0500 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: <01c801d6249b$f6407ac0$e2c17040$@rainier66.com> References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> <01c801d6249b$f6407ac0$e2c17040$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I think traditional campuses will always be needed. But I don?t think they need to be as big as they are. I?m jealous of people like (apparently) yourself who see no difference between digital products and physical ones, or between typing and writing. I don?t know about Zoomers who grew up with it, but for all the rest of us, our brains process these two things differently. Despite my interest in using technology for things, sometimes pen and paper just ... ?feels better?. Sure, my grocery list is on my phone but my diary isn?t. The only people I send printed letters to are politicians. When I read a book on paper, I engage with it differently than I do on a computer. I remember paper books better. Most of my peers and the Zoomers I work with agree that the experience is different. But I?ve never asked which they prefer and why. The main reason I use electronic books is price. If I can get a PDF, I?ll just print it at home, or through office max. For things I?m not studying (that is, things I read for leisure) electronic is fine. For me, taking online classes is horrible. I force myself into it. But I hate every moment of it. It has no redeeming qualities. It?s not even cheaper. The most you could say is that it is ?convenient?. But group projects online are even worse than ?IRL?. I can do it with maximum effort only, even if the class is easy. SR Ballard > On May 7, 2020, at 1:18 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > > On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > > > Subject: Re: [ExI] antiscience from both sides > > > >>? I think student debt is the next bubble to burst? Will > > > > >?Unfortunately, it needs to be burst, and the federal backstop on student loans needs to be removed. Between the pressure on universities from CV-19 and removing the federal loan backstop, you would see tuition prices drop in a hurry? Dylan > > > Think of all the opportunities we are now seeing for doing education waaaay the heck cheaper than has been done before. The online learning has proven highly effective for some students, and doesn?t cost much of anything. > > Another take on it: a large and growing cost associated with schools is the legal liability. With online learning, that goes away. Most of the facilities cost goes away. Consider Khan Academy, oh excellent resource, free to all comers, runs on donations. Think of the cost/benefit of that. If we have an effective way to measure students? progress, we wouldn?t really need traditional campuses. > > spike > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 8 03:43:37 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 20:43:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <0938F98C-F7FE-424B-A8B0-EB4E655C1BA5@gmail.com> References: <00c601d62488$8d7055f0$a85101d0$@rainier66.com> <020501d6249f$2bd13820$8373a860$@rainier66.com> <00df01d624b8$37753960$a65fac20$@rainier66.com> <010b01d624bf$a265c3a0$e7314ae0$@rainier66.com> <0938F98C-F7FE-424B-A8B0-EB4E655C1BA5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <022e01d624ea$dba74cd0$92f5e670$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better Spike, I think you?re failing to realize this: If we wanted to, we could take the amount of the US debt and just... print that many dollars and just pay. Poof. Debt disappears in a puff of smoke. Money only exists because we all agree it exists. It has no intrinsic worth, beyond maybe butt wiping and kindling. SR Ballard Sure but what if we did? The USD is used to back a lot of world currencies. Plenty of African nations use it as their only real money. If the Federal Reserve started printing money based on nothing, our dollar becomes nearly worthless. Pensoners, broke. Anyone who has fixed-dollar incomes, ruined. No more imports: foreign nations don?t want dollars. No foreign oil: the US pays with phony money. The consequences of that act are so severe, that is the reason it has never been done. The Fed will soft-default on government pensioners before it will print phony money. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 8 04:47:39 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 21:47:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ai politicians Message-ID: <026c01d624f3$cdf2e9b0$69d8bd10$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] antiscience from both sides I think traditional campuses will always be needed. But I don?t think they need to be as big as they are. I?m jealous of people like (apparently) yourself who see no difference between digital products and physical ones? SR Ballard Hi SR, I do see a difference between digital products and physical ones: the digital ones are better. You can do more with them, such as search for a text or phrase you found amusing. I treasure my PG Wodehouse digital collection. My ambition is to become Jeeves when I grow up. I had an idea based on the response one of my scouts received from the office of a senator. The requirement was to write to any political leader expressing an opinion on any topic. She received a letter back which was easily recognized as a generic form letter, but on the topic of the scout?s letter. It occurred to me that a software could read the letter (assuming it was typed) pick out key words and fashion a response that generally hit the topics of the letter. It might be a collection of paragraphs on various topics for instance, chosen by keywords from the incoming letter. If we did this with sufficient skill, a letter writer might never realize the communication was never seen by a human. The response could be generated, printed, folded, placed in an envelope, addressed and sent, every bit of it automated. Electronic mail would be even easier. We could have a digital politician. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri May 8 04:59:37 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 21:59:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ai politicians In-Reply-To: <026c01d624f3$cdf2e9b0$69d8bd10$@rainier66.com> References: <026c01d624f3$cdf2e9b0$69d8bd10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Digital politician staff, perhaps. Do you think the politician actually composed those letters in the first place? Some of them might not have even read them. On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 9:49 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *SR Ballard via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] antiscience from both sides > > > > I think traditional campuses will always be needed. But I don?t think they > need to be as big as they are. > > > > I?m jealous of people like (apparently) yourself who see no difference > between digital products and physical ones? > > > > > > SR Ballard > > > > > > Hi SR, I do see a difference between digital products and physical ones: > the digital ones are better. You can do more with them, such as search for > a text or phrase you found amusing. I treasure my PG Wodehouse digital > collection. My ambition is to become Jeeves when I grow up. > > > > I had an idea based on the response one of my scouts received from the > office of a senator. The requirement was to write to any political leader > expressing an opinion on any topic. She received a letter back which was > easily recognized as a generic form letter, but on the topic of the scout?s > letter. > > > > It occurred to me that a software could read the letter (assuming it was > typed) pick out key words and fashion a response that generally hit the > topics of the letter. It might be a collection of paragraphs on various > topics for instance, chosen by keywords from the incoming letter. If we > did this with sufficient skill, a letter writer might never realize the > communication was never seen by a human. The response could be generated, > printed, folded, placed in an envelope, addressed and sent, every bit of it > automated. > > > > Electronic mail would be even easier. We could have a digital politician. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 8 05:09:09 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 22:09:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ai politicians In-Reply-To: References: <026c01d624f3$cdf2e9b0$69d8bd10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <028901d624f6$cf0a6cd0$6d1f4670$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] ai politicians Digital politician staff, perhaps. Do you think the politician actually composed those letters in the first place? Some of them might not have even read them. I assumed they were done by low-level staffers. I am suggesting it could be completely automated. They probably already are for the most part. The staffer would skim the letter in a few seconds, pick up on the subject, then reply with the gun letter, the Covid letter, the abortion letter, that kind of thing. I don?t suppose real politicians above about a state representative reads letters from the proletatiat. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Fri May 8 09:40:05 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 10:40:05 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 07/05/2020 16:56, Re Rose wrote: > I don't think an uploaded copy of my brain pattern in any way will or > ever can be "me". The slow-replacement theory isn't persuasive, as > each component acclimates to the surroundings slowly which I think is > ok. That's not a massive uploading event. The thought-experiment I > trust the most, which is against uploading,? is the one where you > consider uploading a copy made before you are dead into a new body. If > you aren't "in" that new agent animated by your copy (since you're > still alive) -- well, how will you ever be able to be "in" that or any > other copy ? IMHO, you can't. Not ever. A copy is a copy. Fun and > maybe comforting for your surviving friends and family, and to be sure > it is an agent in its own right - its just not you. > You seem to have changed your mind about uploading. I recommend reading "A Taxonomy and Metaphysics of Mind Uploading" by Keith Wiley, and having a look at this site: https://carboncopies.org/writing/ You assume that there can only be one 'you'. So far that has been true, but there's no law of physics that says it will always be true. A perfect copy of your mind would necessarily be you, unless you subscribe to some form of dualism, and think people have 'souls' in the way that religious people mean. You say 'a copy is a copy'. True. But what does that mean? I'm a copy of the me of 2 seconds ago. I'm still me. A copy of Beethoven's 9th symphony is a copy. It's still Beethoven's 9th symphony. As long as the copies are identical, it doesn't matter if after the process, there are two items or still one item (in the case of destructive copying). Or a hundred. There's nothing inferior about 'a copy', as long as its fidelity is high enough (a thing we don't yet know about brains is just how high the fidelity needs to be, for an upload). When an amoeba splits into two daughter amoebas by copying all of its parts, which is the 'real' amoeba, and which is the copy? Not only is it not possible to tell (even by radiolabelling its food), the question doesn't really mean anything. It has branched into two identical amoebas. Each has as much claim to be 'the real one' as the other. I can see no reason the same thing wouldn't be true of a copy of a mind. -- Ben Zaiboc From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri May 8 11:54:39 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 07:54:39 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <001501d624a0$af98c3c0$0eca4b40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 7:01 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > John - if you want someone to call Bush stupid, then I will. At the time > he was the worst president in history, according to me and lots of folks. > Trump passed him like he was standing still. > I agree completely If you're talking about the second Bush, George W Bush (2001-2009), at the time I thought he would be the worst president I would ever see but I was wrong, however I was talking about the first Bush, George HW Bush (1989-1993), he wasn't great but he wasn't dreadful eother. Before either Bush I thought the worst president in my lifetime would be Lyndon Johnson, but I was wrong then too. I'm not sure about worst in history, James Buchanan might give all of them a run for the money, but Trump is far from finished, he still has time (maybe 8 more months, maybe 8 more years, maybe even more) to make lots of more idiotic decisions and pull way ahead of Buchanan for a clear win. By the way, by "worst president" I don't necessarily mean the man most lacking in personal virtue, I mean the man who inflicted the most damage to the country. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 8 12:23:01 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 05:23:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <0938F98C-F7FE-424B-A8B0-EB4E655C1BA5@gmail.com> References: <00c601d62488$8d7055f0$a85101d0$@rainier66.com> <020501d6249f$2bd13820$8373a860$@rainier66.com> <00df01d624b8$37753960$a65fac20$@rainier66.com> <010b01d624bf$a265c3a0$e7314ae0$@rainier66.com> <0938F98C-F7FE-424B-A8B0-EB4E655C1BA5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001401d62533$6b312130$41936390$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better >?Spike, I think you?re failing to realize this: If we wanted to, we could take the amount of the US debt and just... print that many dollars and just pay. Poof. Debt disappears in a puff of smoke. >?Money only exists because we all agree it exists. It has no intrinsic worth, beyond maybe butt wiping and kindling. >?SR Ballard Hi SR, Many US states are being forced to re-open their economies before it is safe. They know it isn?t safe yet, and we all know it. It is crazy risky. It will cost lives. The consequences of that will be bad. In your view, if printing more money to pay off debts is an option (poof, debt disappears in a puff of smoke (just give the unemployed their former pay)) why aren?t we doing that? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri May 8 12:47:38 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 08:47:38 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 1:53 PM Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > * > I would not want to be battling with a slew of uploads as to who gets > to live my life and who gets to be my slave - or die. * > But what you want does not necessarily coincide with what will be. In the future if anybody takes pity on my frozen brain and is kind enough to take the trouble to revive me it will almost certainly be as an upload because they would not want somebody as primitive as me running around at the same level of reality as their master computer servers. And I'm OK with that, it beats oblivion anyway. * > I do not believe in any case that we either live in a simulation or > that we would be happy in one.* > If they figure it would make you unhappy they just won't tell you that you're living in a simulation. Problem solved. > * > I don't think a simulation will ever get creative enough to be human* > cre?a?tiv?i?ty /?kr???tiv?d?/ Learn to pronounce *noun* Anything that computers aren't good at. Yet. > *> Atari games that found ways to get superhuman scores by twisting the > rules of the game. But even in those cases you can see the innovation came > from non-human computer abilities,* > Exactly. *> In any case I do not care to come back in a simulation or game, to me > that would be the antithesis of being human~ * > Being human sucks. I'm not nearly as smart as I'd like and I sure won't last for as long as I'd like. *> we can't forget that the hormone cycles interact - another level of > feedback. Reproduction of chaotic systems is notoriously difficult* > If hormone cycles were chaotic we'd all be dead because critical hormones would be constantly swinging unpredictably from lethally low levels to lethally high levels; but that doesn't happen because hormone cycles, like every other chemical cycle in biology, makes use of negative feedback that damps out any trend toward chaos. And it's not difficult at all for a computer to produce chaotic behavior, the computer you're reading this on right now is powerful enough to do that. What's difficult, virtually impossible in fact, is to know the real world initial conditions with enough precision to make good long term predictions of what the real world chaotic system will do. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri May 8 13:16:33 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 09:16:33 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <016401d624c5$14e138b0$3ea3aa10$@rainier66.com> References: <00c601d62488$8d7055f0$a85101d0$@rainier66.com> <020501d6249f$2bd13820$8373a860$@rainier66.com> <00df01d624b8$37753960$a65fac20$@rainier66.com> <010b01d624bf$a265c3a0$e7314ae0$@rainier66.com> <016401d624c5$14e138b0$3ea3aa10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 7:15 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> suddenly the lenders stop lending, and start wanting to borrow. That > sends the interest rates thru the roof.* We've heard all that before, people have been saying deficit spending will produce ruinously high interest rates for 2 centuries and right now interest rates are the lowest in living memory, but don't give up hope you still might get lucky; remember, if you want to make a correct prediction you've got to predict often, and even a stopped clock is right twice a day. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri May 8 13:40:21 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 08:40:21 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ai politicians In-Reply-To: <028901d624f6$cf0a6cd0$6d1f4670$@rainier66.com> References: <026c01d624f3$cdf2e9b0$69d8bd10$@rainier66.com> <028901d624f6$cf0a6cd0$6d1f4670$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Is that what we want from our politicians - boilerplate? bill w On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 12:10 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] ai politicians > > > > Digital politician staff, perhaps. Do you think the politician actually > composed those letters in the first place? Some of them might not have > even read them. > > > > > > I assumed they were done by low-level staffers. I am suggesting it could > be completely automated. They probably already are for the most part. The > staffer would skim the letter in a few seconds, pick up on the subject, > then reply with the gun letter, the Covid letter, the abortion letter, that > kind of thing. I don?t suppose real politicians above about a state > representative reads letters from the proletatiat. > > > > spike > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri May 8 13:42:18 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 08:42:18 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <001501d624a0$af98c3c0$0eca4b40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I met Bush the Elder, and a finer gentleman never lived. bill w On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 6:57 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 7:01 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > John - if you want someone to call Bush stupid, then I will. At the >> time he was the worst president in history, according to me and lots of >> folks. Trump passed him like he was standing still. >> > > I agree completely If you're talking about the second Bush, George W Bush > (2001-2009), at the time I thought he would be the worst president I would > ever see but I was wrong, however I was talking about the first Bush, > George HW Bush (1989-1993), he wasn't great but he wasn't dreadful eother. > Before either Bush I thought the worst president in my lifetime would be > Lyndon Johnson, but I was wrong then too. I'm not sure about worst in > history, James Buchanan might give all of them a run for the money, but > Trump is far from finished, he still has time (maybe 8 more months, maybe 8 > more years, maybe even more) to make lots of more idiotic decisions and > pull way ahead of Buchanan for a clear win. > > By the way, by "worst president" I don't necessarily mean the man most > lacking in personal virtue, I mean the man who inflicted the most damage to > the country. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 8 14:02:40 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 07:02:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00c601d62488$8d7055f0$a85101d0$@rainier66.com> <020501d6249f$2bd13820$8373a860$@rainier66.com> <00df01d624b8$37753960$a65fac20$@rainier66.com> <010b01d624bf$a265c3a0$e7314ae0$@rainier66.com> <016401d624c5$14e138b0$3ea3aa10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005a01d62541$56a64ed0$03f2ec70$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 7:15 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > suddenly the lenders stop lending, and start wanting to borrow. That sends the interest rates thru the roof. >?We've heard all that before, people have been saying deficit spending will produce ruinously high interest rates for 2 centuries.... John K Clark Ja. A Ponzi scheme is a great investment until it suddenly isn?t anymore. My question: what happens when it isn?t anymore? SR suggests we print more money. This approach has been taken before: https://www.amazon.com/Zimbabwe-100-Trillion-Dollar-Note/dp/B00U1ZMYGC https://mashable.com/2016/07/27/german-hyperinflation/ https://www.aljazeera.com/ajimpact/venezuela-currency-worth-craft-paper-money-191224144545023.html So we could tax the super high-paid. But there aren?t that many of them: the big sports stars and a few CEOs make a lot money, but that isn?t a drop in the bucket. Are there any other ideas? If economies open up and Covid cases go way up, or if economies don?t open up in spite of the risk, we will need other ideas, lots of them. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 8 14:47:15 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 07:47:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] schools, was: RE: Even India and Haiti do it better Message-ID: <00b101d62547$91c1ef00$b545cd00$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com >?Are there any other ideas? If economies open up and Covid cases go way up, or if economies don?t open up in spite of the risk, we will need other ideas, lots of them. Spike Regarding ideas, I am soliciting ideas on other stuff besides economies. I have a pretty good idea how economies will go after hearing how much trouble the California government is in: they will realize that shutting down an economy for an extended period is ruinous as well as Covid. The governor (and the other 49 governors) will stand down soon methinks, even knowing it is very risky, for they already know and have seen what happens in the alternative. They are sailing between Scylla and Charybdis. What isn?t clear is public education. We are doing remote learning here, and it is working for some, not at all for others. The schools have been closed for the remainder of the academic year, but the plan is to return in August. If Covid cases shoot way up (certainly a plausible scenario) we can easily imagine the governor would close the schools but not the businesses (this is my prediction of what will happen.) The schools can pretend they are still operational, and they are? for some of the students. Academically the rich get richer, the poor get nothing (because they don?t show up.) If anyone wants to toss out ideas, please do. I am on an evaluation board offering the district superintendent a parents?-eye-view of remote learning. The board may not like what I have to say, but I will tell the truth: remote learning works well for some, but the best bet for actual learning is to forget watching their classroom lectures on Zoom and just go to Khan Academy: smarter lecturer, better IT, better everything. What if the caseload in the fall is a lot higher than now and we have enough test kits but we find that doesn?t help much because the virus has already spread before the first symptoms show up? Or what if it is about the same as now, or only a little lower: they would still need to keep the schools closed, ja? The shops and businesses will need to stay open for the most part, the ones which haven?t folded by then. But schools have the option of closing. Ideas? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri May 8 15:00:59 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 11:00:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] schools, was: RE: Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <00b101d62547$91c1ef00$b545cd00$@rainier66.com> References: <00b101d62547$91c1ef00$b545cd00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The irony here is that schools are probably the last thing that should have ever been closed based on both the economic hardships foisted on lower income families as a result and the fact that the risk of death for those age groups is close to zero. I'm more concerned with the fact that unemployment is now at 14.7% in the US, and that for many low income employees, it now makes sense to keep collecting unemployment due to the fact that they are getting paid more to sit at home than they are paid to return to work. The entire stimulus package has been a disaster between eliminating ACTUAL income as a factor in the unemployment payments and the fact that there were few conditions attached to the PPP loan program to prevent anyone who applied from taking advantage of it. There's a real possibility of a lost decade in the US now caused entirely by an over-reaction to CV-19, not the actual impact of the virus itself. On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 10:48 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* spike at rainier66.com > > >?Are there any other ideas? If economies open up and Covid cases go way > up, or if economies don?t open up in spite of the risk, we will need other > ideas, lots of them. Spike > > > > > > Regarding ideas, I am soliciting ideas on other stuff besides economies. > I have a pretty good idea how economies will go after hearing how much > trouble the California government is in: they will realize that shutting > down an economy for an extended period is ruinous as well as Covid. The > governor (and the other 49 governors) will stand down soon methinks, even > knowing it is very risky, for they already know and have seen what happens > in the alternative. They are sailing between Scylla and Charybdis. > > > > What isn?t clear is public education. We are doing remote learning here, > and it is working for some, not at all for others. The schools have been > closed for the remainder of the academic year, but the plan is to return in > August. If Covid cases shoot way up (certainly a plausible scenario) we > can easily imagine the governor would close the schools but not the > businesses (this is my prediction of what will happen.) The schools can > pretend they are still operational, and they are? for some of the > students. Academically the rich get richer, the poor get nothing (because > they don?t show up.) > > > > If anyone wants to toss out ideas, please do. I am on an evaluation board > offering the district superintendent a parents?-eye-view of remote > learning. The board may not like what I have to say, but I will tell the > truth: remote learning works well for some, but the best bet for actual > learning is to forget watching their classroom lectures on Zoom and just go > to Khan Academy: smarter lecturer, better IT, better everything. > > > > What if the caseload in the fall is a lot higher than now and we have > enough test kits but we find that doesn?t help much because the virus has > already spread before the first symptoms show up? Or what if it is about > the same as now, or only a little lower: they would still need to keep the > schools closed, ja? The shops and businesses will need to stay open for > the most part, the ones which haven?t folded by then. But schools have the > option of closing. > > > > Ideas? > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rahmans at me.com Fri May 8 15:30:53 2020 From: rahmans at me.com (Omar Rahman) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 17:30:53 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better Message-ID: > From: extropy-chat > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat > > > >> Least of our problems? > > >> ?Yes, the least of our problems. > > > >> Lack of a balanced budget will be the CAUSE of our problems. > > > >> ?Failure to balance the budget created the COVID-19 virus? John K Clark > > > > > > No, failure to balance the budget is a reason why we will not and cannot deal effectively with the Covid-19 virus. We will not have the option to stay closed: people have needs, and they need to get to their jobs and businesses, forthwith. > > > > What I see in those insisting we keep everything closed is a stunning lack of empathy for those who are not still getting their paychecks. > > > > spike What I see in those insisting that we send people back to work is a stunning lack of empathy for those who will die because they were forced back to work. Empathy for people not getting pay checks vs. empathy for people getting sick and dying: what a terribly difficult choice! Let?s reason this out. What do we know? You can give people money. You can?t reanimate people. (Unless someone on the list has really been holding out on us!) Hmmm?.wait a second?.I?m sure I can figure this out. Let?s give the people money! Additionally, please remember what money money is: trust symbols. Either you trust the government, or the blockchain, or the relative scarcity and symbolism of Au. It is all trust. What is going to increase trust in the system the most right now? Giving people money so that they can pay for food and essentials. In 2008 people all over the world gave the banks, and remember ?corporations are people too?, so so so so much money to keep them alive. It is time to tell the banks that they quite literally OWE US THEIR LIVES. If the government takes care of the people, which is its job, and the banks are prevented from using this pandemic as a ?business opportunity? everything becomes very simple. Furthermore, to all the ?libertarians? who are right now thinking ?we don?t want a nanny state?, consider this scenario: You go to the hospital. (wheeze, wheeze, cough, cough) You: Doc, I need a ventilator. Doc: Nah. You: But I have golden plus premium private heath insurance, the best that money can buy! Doc: *shrug* You: I?ll sue, I?ll call the police! (Translation: I?ll tell Nanny!) The American failure that were are witnessing, and might be witnessing needlessly accelerate, is exactly the failure of American empathy. Empathy is the root of all societies. On the other hand this same failure of empathy might be a triumph for capitalism. The failure of empathy is basically Ayn Rand in a nutshell. Too bad for the people reading this is the fact that capital is money, and money is trust, trust only originates from people, and dead people don?t trust. Empathy, is something the strong have. Empathy, is the granting of 1st, 2nd, 3rd, ?nth chances. Empathy is the only exit from the ?prisoner?s dilemma?. Empathy works because unless you live on the move and never meet the same people twice your empathy will eventually be reciprocated. Empathy builds trust. A post most emphatically about empathy by, Omar Rahman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 8 15:44:06 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 08:44:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] schools, was: RE: Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00b101d62547$91c1ef00$b545cd00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00f401d6254f$82646530$872d2f90$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] schools, was: RE: Even India and Haiti do it better >?The irony here is that schools are probably the last thing that should have ever been closed based on both the economic hardships foisted on lower income families as a result and the fact that the risk of death for those age groups is close to zero? Hi Dylan, ja, however the risk of students carrying that virus home and infecting their parents and grandparents is high. I hear ya, and partially agree, but the school board recognizes the risk to the family members and is making decisions based on that. >?I'm more concerned with the fact that unemployment is now at 14.7% in the US, and that for many low income employees, it now makes sense to keep collecting unemployment due to the fact that they are getting paid more to sit at home than they are paid to return to work? Well right, however? that isn?t going to last very long. The report coming out of California yesterday makes it clear. Even though they don?t want to re-open this economy and doing so is risky, the state faces an even bigger risk if it doesn?t: the funding for unemployment payments will be exhausted. It was never designed to carry 14% of the population (because it cannot.) The state is borrowing money as fast as it can, but the investors all over the world are jumping on the opportunity to not lend California money. Imagine that. I anticipate that the state income tax will zoom way up, the sales tax will zoom way up pretty soon, the gas tax (all of these will be forced on the state) but not the property tax: that one is set in stone (fortunately for homeowners.) >?The entire stimulus package has been a disaster between eliminating ACTUAL income as a factor in the unemployment payments and the fact that there were few conditions attached to the PPP loan program to prevent anyone who applied from taking advantage of it? Ja, so what do we do? I can imagine governments all over the world are facing pretty similar problems: they must realize that shutting down an economy is a really bad option, even if not shutting it down is also a really bad option. >?There's a real possibility of a lost decade in the US now caused entirely by an over-reaction to CV-19, not the actual impact of the virus itself? Ja. My focus in on schools at the moment, for I can pretty much see how the rest of it must play out, whether we like it or not: shops and businesses will need to re-open forthwith, regardless of the risks. Some businesses will not be back, plenty of them. The newly-unemployed will be re-employed meeting needs that weren?t there before, such as grocery delivery. That doesn?t pay enough to support the lifestyle to which so many have become fondly accustomed, and in many cases not enough to cover the mortgage. So that will be really bad. My focus is on schools. Does anyone see any realistic alternative? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Fri May 8 16:10:27 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 02:10:27 +1000 Subject: [ExI] schools, was: RE: Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <00f401d6254f$82646530$872d2f90$@rainier66.com> References: <00b101d62547$91c1ef00$b545cd00$@rainier66.com> <00f401d6254f$82646530$872d2f90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 May 2020 at 01:45, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] schools, was: RE: Even India and Haiti do it better > > > > >?The irony here is that schools are probably the last thing that should > have ever been closed based on both the economic hardships foisted on lower > income families as a result and the fact that the risk of death for those > age groups is close to zero? > > > > Hi Dylan, ja, however the risk of students carrying that virus home and > infecting their parents and grandparents is high. I hear ya, and partially > agree, but the school board recognizes the risk to the family members and > is making decisions based on that. > > > > >?I'm more concerned with the fact that unemployment is now at 14.7% in > the US, and that for many low income employees, it now makes sense to keep > collecting unemployment due to the fact that they are getting paid more to > sit at home than they are paid to return to work? > > > > Well right, however? that isn?t going to last very long. The report > coming out of California yesterday makes it clear. Even though they don?t > want to re-open this economy and doing so is risky, the state faces an even > bigger risk if it doesn?t: the funding for unemployment payments will be > exhausted. It was never designed to carry 14% of the population (because > it cannot.) The state is borrowing money as fast as it can, but the > investors all over the world are jumping on the opportunity to not lend > California money. Imagine that. > > > > I anticipate that the state income tax will zoom way up, the sales tax > will zoom way up pretty soon, the gas tax (all of these will be forced on > the state) but not the property tax: that one is set in stone (fortunately > for homeowners.) > > > > > > >?The entire stimulus package has been a disaster between eliminating > ACTUAL income as a factor in the unemployment payments and the fact that > there were few conditions attached to the PPP loan program to prevent > anyone who applied from taking advantage of it? > > > > Ja, so what do we do? I can imagine governments all over the world are > facing pretty similar problems: they must realize that shutting down an > economy is a really bad option, even if not shutting it down is also a > really bad option. > Government-mandated shutdowns are not the primary cause of the economic downturn. Having a deadly contagious disease in the community would severely damage an economy even if the government actively tried to encourage normal economic activity. > > > >?There's a real possibility of a lost decade in the US now caused > entirely by an over-reaction to CV-19, not the actual impact of the virus > itself? > > > > Ja. My focus in on schools at the moment, for I can pretty much see how > the rest of it must play out, whether we like it or not: shops and > businesses will need to re-open forthwith, regardless of the risks. Some > businesses will not be back, plenty of them. The newly-unemployed will be > re-employed meeting needs that weren?t there before, such as grocery > delivery. That doesn?t pay enough to support the lifestyle to which so > many have become fondly accustomed, and in many cases not enough to cover > the mortgage. So that will be really bad. > > > > My focus is on schools. > > > > Does anyone see any realistic alternative? > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri May 8 16:18:51 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 12:18:51 -0400 Subject: [ExI] schools, was: RE: Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <00f401d6254f$82646530$872d2f90$@rainier66.com> References: <00b101d62547$91c1ef00$b545cd00$@rainier66.com> <00f401d6254f$82646530$872d2f90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 11:45 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] schools, was: RE: Even India and Haiti do it better > > > > >?The irony here is that schools are probably the last thing that should > have ever been closed based on both the economic hardships foisted on lower > income families as a result and the fact that the risk of death for those > age groups is close to zero? > > > > Hi Dylan, ja, however the risk of students carrying that virus home and > infecting their parents and grandparents is high. I hear ya, and partially > agree, but the school board recognizes the risk to the family members and > is making decisions based on that. > I understand, although I will point out that it is questionable whether or not they spread at the same level as adults. I'm not saying it would not be a calculated risk, as definitive evidence does not exist, but here's a recent discussion on it: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01354-0 > > > I anticipate that the state income tax will zoom way up, the sales tax > will zoom way up pretty soon, the gas tax (all of these will be forced on > the state) but not the property tax: that one is set in stone (fortunately > for homeowners.) > > > Yes, I agree, we're all likely to get taxed out the a$$ to cover this mess at the state level. It's also an easy excuse to raise taxes regardless. > > > > Ja, so what do we do? I can imagine governments all over the world are > facing pretty similar problems: they must realize that shutting down an > economy is a really bad option, even if not shutting it down is also a > really bad option. > Well, I understand why some of it was rushed, but I don't think it was a good idea to apply blanket unemployment checks with $600 tacked on just because it was logistically more challenging to check their actual incomes. If unemployment always worked like this, it would be a disaster. The lack of constraints on the PPP was the inexcusable part, and was easily avoided. New Zealand also helped businesses but had much more stringent terms to be able to get the loan, and btw these aren't even loans for practical purposes, most of them will be forgiven if you use them towards payroll only and meet a few other basic requirements. > > > Does anyone see any realistic alternative? > > > > I saw one before this mess. Enforce common sense social distancing ala Sweden and keep things open. Yes, of course, the economy would still take a major hit, and theirs has as well, but more commerce is being transacted than it would have been with a US/European style lockdown, and not as many people would be unemployed. The only thing to do now is reopen and deal with both the virus and the economy as best we can. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri May 8 16:25:40 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 12:25:40 -0400 Subject: [ExI] schools, was: RE: Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00b101d62547$91c1ef00$b545cd00$@rainier66.com> <00f401d6254f$82646530$872d2f90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: We have a deadly, very contagious disease called influenza every year which does not shutdown entire economies. There are very well defined high risk groups for CV-19 lethality. The economic impact has been driven both by the fear that has been induced in most populations globally by government officials and the media, and by official mandate that attempts to make examples of offenders. Yes, of course, there would still be significant impacts on some sectors in any case but many people would not be exhibiting current behaviors with no mandate if they understood how low the actual risk of death is in most portions of the population. On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 12:11 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Government-mandated shutdowns are not the primary cause of the economic > downturn. Having a deadly contagious disease in the community would > severely damage an economy even if the government actively tried to > encourage normal economic activity. > >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 8 16:28:12 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 09:28:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] schools, was: RE: Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00b101d62547$91c1ef00$b545cd00$@rainier66.com> <00f401d6254f$82646530$872d2f90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <011101d62555$ab3a7070$01af5150$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou On Sat, 9 May 2020 at 01:45, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >>?Ja, so what do we do? I can imagine governments all over the world are facing pretty similar problems: they must realize that shutting down an economy is a really bad option, even if not shutting it down is also a really bad option. >?Government-mandated shutdowns are not the primary cause of the economic downturn. Having a deadly contagious disease in the community would severely damage an economy even if the government actively tried to encourage normal economic activity. -- Stathis Papaioannou Hi Stathis, As I recall you are from Australia. I don?t know how it works there, but in the states, the federal government doesn?t have the authority to demand the economy shut down: that decision is on the state governors. Most of them have stayed closed, but there are a few states such as California which realize it is now open up, like it or not. Today I noticed the traffic is way up, and the construction guys are back. Schools stay closed. I have little doubt you are right: plenty of businesses will never reopen, and many of those who do will struggle to stay afloat. We will be feeling the effects of this for years to come, regardless of what we do. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri May 8 16:49:03 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 12:49:03 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Human Challenge Trials Message-ID: If you want to do something drastic to end this virus nightmare there is something we could do that would be far more effective than waiting for herd immunity as well as being less ethically questionable, although I'm sure some would still clutch their pearls in horror, I'm referring to Human Challenge Trials. The idea is young healthy volunteers would be injected with a experimental vaccine (or a placebo) and then deliberately infected with the COVID-19 virus. This would dramatically speed up vaccine development and save many thousands, perhaps millions, of lives; not to mention stop the economy from collapsing into rubble. The death rate for young healthy people who get COVID-19 is only about 1.4 deaths per 10,000 and the death rate for those who volunteer as kidney donors is 3 times that, we accept one as being ethical why not the other? As one ethicist put it: *"This is the trolley problem where the fat man wants to jump knowing his chance of death is below 1% and our decision is whether to stop him."* Should volunteers to be infected with coronavirus to test vaccines? Human Challenge Trials?A Coronavirus Taboo John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri May 8 16:51:47 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 11:51:47 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good post, OMar. You can't have too much empathy. There has to be more of it to balance those who seem to have little of it - who care more about banks and corporations than individuals. bill w On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 10:33 AM Omar Rahman via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of > John Clark via extropy-chat > > > > Least of our problems? > > > > ?Yes, the least of our problems. > > > > > Lack of a balanced budget will be the CAUSE of our problems. > > > > > ?Failure to balance the budget created the COVID-19 virus? John K Clark > > > > > > > No, failure to balance the budget is a reason why we will not and cannot > deal effectively with the Covid-19 virus. We will not have the option to > stay closed: people have needs, and they need to get to their jobs and > businesses, forthwith. > > > > What I see in those insisting we keep everything closed is a stunning lack > of empathy for those who are not still getting their paychecks. > > > > spike > > > What I see in those insisting that we send people back to work is a > stunning lack of empathy for those who will die because they were forced > back to work. > > Empathy for people not getting pay checks vs. empathy for people getting > sick and dying: what a terribly difficult choice! > > Let?s reason this out. What do we know? > > You can give people money. > > You can?t reanimate people. (Unless someone on the list has really been > holding out on us!) > > Hmmm?.wait a second?.I?m sure I can figure this out. > > Let?s give the people money! > > > Additionally, please remember what money money is: trust symbols. Either > you trust the government, or the blockchain, or the relative scarcity and > symbolism of Au. It is all trust. What is going to increase trust in the > system the most right now? Giving people money so that they can pay for > food and essentials. > > In 2008 people all over the world gave the banks, and remember > ?corporations are people too?, so so so so much money to keep them alive. > It is time to tell the banks that they quite literally OWE US THEIR LIVES. > If the government takes care of the people, which is its job, and the banks > are prevented from using this pandemic as a ?business opportunity? > everything becomes very simple. > > Furthermore, to all the ?libertarians? who are right now thinking ?we > don?t want a nanny state?, consider this scenario: > > You go to the hospital. (wheeze, wheeze, cough, cough) > > You: Doc, I need a ventilator. > > Doc: Nah. > > You: But I have golden plus premium private heath insurance, the best that > money can buy! > > Doc: *shrug* > > You: I?ll sue, I?ll call the police! (Translation: I?ll tell Nanny!) > > > The American failure that were are witnessing, and might be witnessing > needlessly accelerate, is exactly the failure of American empathy. Empathy > is the root of all societies. > > On the other hand this same failure of empathy might be a triumph for > capitalism. The failure of empathy is basically Ayn Rand in a nutshell. Too > bad for the people reading this is the fact that capital is money, and > money is trust, trust only originates from people, and dead people don?t > trust. > > Empathy, is something the strong have. Empathy, is the granting of 1st, > 2nd, 3rd, ?nth chances. Empathy is the only exit from the ?prisoner?s > dilemma?. Empathy works because unless you live on the move and never meet > the same people twice your empathy will eventually be reciprocated. > > Empathy builds trust. > > A post most emphatically about empathy by, > > Omar Rahman > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri May 8 17:00:54 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 13:00:54 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Human Challenge Trials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't really have an issue with what you're proposing, especially if the volunteers were well compensated for taking a risk, but I think you're leaving out the risk of taking a particular flavor of experimental vaccine from your calculations. I don't pretend to know what that risk is though. On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 12:50 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > If you want to do something drastic to end this virus nightmare there is > something we could do that would be far more effective than waiting for > herd immunity as well as being less ethically questionable, although I'm > sure some would still clutch their pearls in horror, I'm referring to > Human Challenge Trials. The idea is young healthy volunteers would be > injected with a experimental vaccine (or a placebo) and then deliberately > infected with the COVID-19 virus. This would dramatically speed up vaccine > development and save many thousands, perhaps millions, of lives; not to > mention stop the economy from collapsing into rubble. The death rate for > young healthy people who get COVID-19 is only about 1.4 deaths per 10,000 > and the death rate for those who volunteer as kidney donors is 3 times > that, we accept one as being ethical why not the other? > As one ethicist put it: > > *"This is the trolley problem where the fat man wants to jump knowing his > chance of death is below 1% and our decision is whether to stop him."* > > Should volunteers to be infected with coronavirus to test vaccines? > > > Human Challenge Trials?A Coronavirus Taboo > > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri May 8 17:02:08 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 12:02:08 -0500 Subject: [ExI] schools, was: RE: Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <00b101d62547$91c1ef00$b545cd00$@rainier66.com> References: <00b101d62547$91c1ef00$b545cd00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: the best bet for actual learning is to forget watching their classroom lectures on Zoom and just go to Khan Academy: smarter lecturer, better IT, better everything. spike Once upon a time near the beginning of the video age, the dept. got a circular about a series of videos teaching basic statistics. My chairman asked if I wanted them. My answer was that if I were out for an extended period of time, then having those in reserve was a good idea. Other than that, I prefer to teach the class myself. We did not order. So - you are not going to make any headway with superintendents and principals by suggesting that they bypass their teachers and get their students to watch better teachers on videos, even if they cost very little or nothing. They will support their teachers - or pay a big price. The unions will jump all over them. BTW = what was wrong with my post about the invalidity of the population infectios rates and death rates? I believe those to be useless, as I said. Maybe it is just something the guys can play around with? bill w. On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 9:49 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* spike at rainier66.com > > >?Are there any other ideas? If economies open up and Covid cases go way > up, or if economies don?t open up in spite of the risk, we will need other > ideas, lots of them. Spike > > > > > > Regarding ideas, I am soliciting ideas on other stuff besides economies. > I have a pretty good idea how economies will go after hearing how much > trouble the California government is in: they will realize that shutting > down an economy for an extended period is ruinous as well as Covid. The > governor (and the other 49 governors) will stand down soon methinks, even > knowing it is very risky, for they already know and have seen what happens > in the alternative. They are sailing between Scylla and Charybdis. > > > > What isn?t clear is public education. We are doing remote learning here, > and it is working for some, not at all for others. The schools have been > closed for the remainder of the academic year, but the plan is to return in > August. If Covid cases shoot way up (certainly a plausible scenario) we > can easily imagine the governor would close the schools but not the > businesses (this is my prediction of what will happen.) The schools can > pretend they are still operational, and they are? for some of the > students. Academically the rich get richer, the poor get nothing (because > they don?t show up.) > > > > If anyone wants to toss out ideas, please do. I am on an evaluation board > offering the district superintendent a parents?-eye-view of remote > learning. The board may not like what I have to say, but I will tell the > truth: remote learning works well for some, but the best bet for actual > learning is to forget watching their classroom lectures on Zoom and just go > to Khan Academy: smarter lecturer, better IT, better everything. > > > > What if the caseload in the fall is a lot higher than now and we have > enough test kits but we find that doesn?t help much because the virus has > already spread before the first symptoms show up? Or what if it is about > the same as now, or only a little lower: they would still need to keep the > schools closed, ja? The shops and businesses will need to stay open for > the most part, the ones which haven?t folded by then. But schools have the > option of closing. > > > > Ideas? > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri May 8 17:03:03 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 12:03:03 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Human Challenge Trials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: John you need to re-read the trolley problem. bill w On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 11:51 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > If you want to do something drastic to end this virus nightmare there is > something we could do that would be far more effective than waiting for > herd immunity as well as being less ethically questionable, although I'm > sure some would still clutch their pearls in horror, I'm referring to > Human Challenge Trials. The idea is young healthy volunteers would be > injected with a experimental vaccine (or a placebo) and then deliberately > infected with the COVID-19 virus. This would dramatically speed up vaccine > development and save many thousands, perhaps millions, of lives; not to > mention stop the economy from collapsing into rubble. The death rate for > young healthy people who get COVID-19 is only about 1.4 deaths per 10,000 > and the death rate for those who volunteer as kidney donors is 3 times > that, we accept one as being ethical why not the other? > As one ethicist put it: > > *"This is the trolley problem where the fat man wants to jump knowing his > chance of death is below 1% and our decision is whether to stop him."* > > Should volunteers to be infected with coronavirus to test vaccines? > > > Human Challenge Trials?A Coronavirus Taboo > > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri May 8 17:03:21 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 13:03:21 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 12:59 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Good post, OMar. > Yes very good. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 8 17:18:43 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 10:18:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <017401d6255c$ba509330$2ef1b990$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better Good post, OMar. You can't have too much empathy. There has to be more of it to balance those who seem to have little of it - who care more about banks and corporations than individuals. bill w Of course. What happens if those banks and corporations simultaneously fail, taking individuals? money and livelihood with them? Do those corporations become a collection of individuals? Do those banks become a collection of individuals? capital? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 8 17:41:04 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 10:41:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] schools, was: RE: Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00b101d62547$91c1ef00$b545cd00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <01c201d6255f$d98ff760$8cafe620$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] schools, was: RE: Even India and Haiti do it better >>? the best bet for actual learning is to forget watching their classroom lectures on Zoom and just go to Khan Academy: smarter lecturer, better IT, better everything. spike >?So - you are not going to make any headway with superintendents and principals by suggesting that they bypass their teachers and get their students to watch better teachers on videos, even if they cost very little or nothing. They will support their teachers - or pay a big price. The unions will jump all over them? Ja I suspect so. >?BTW = what was wrong with my post about the invalidity of the population infectios rates and death rates? I believe those to be useless, as I said. Maybe it is just something the guys can play around with? bill w. Nothing wrong with that at all. Here?s a fun exercise: try doing your own statistical analysis using the data available. Figure out what to compare to what, such as my ill-fated exercise yesterday. I was trying to compare infection rates to population density. Problem: infection rates on the Johns Hopkins site are based on counties. Counties contain huge metropolis areas as well as swampy uninhabited areas, so the population density is misleading. New York has over a third of the Covid deaths in the US all by itself, but my friend from upstate reminds me that it is all down there next to the city, which is what got me going from the start. Most educational is to go into Google maps and look at New York City, satellite view. Bring up a map showing how the city is divided into counties, but all of it is New York City: it includes Queens, Bronx, Long Island and so on, part of New Jersey. Right there is the hottest hot spot. https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2020/may/05/coronavirus-map-of-the-us-latest-cases-state-by-state This breaks it down by county: https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/us-map The data sets are crazy hard to compare directly, but the overall signal is clear enough: infections per capita are all about population density. The hardest-hit areas are those dependent on mass transit. My suggestion is to stop all public mass transit, all buses, taxis, trains, subways, everything. Then, everyone else goes back to work and business. I know that still leaves a lot of people out of work and out of luck. I get that. I don?t have all the answers. But I have that one: public transit is the bad guy here, or certainly one of the very worst. Governors do have the authority to close subways and buses. That would get most of the US (and probably other countries are like that too) back to work and paying the taxes necessary to help feed those who will remain without jobs, some of whom are sick. Alternatives? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri May 8 17:46:15 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 13:46:15 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <017401d6255c$ba509330$2ef1b990$@rainier66.com> References: <017401d6255c$ba509330$2ef1b990$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: We should also have empathy for those individuals who are willing to work and can't like the salon owner in Texas who was actually given jail time by a judge with zero empathy for violating a no work ordinance and standing up publicly for her rights and willingness to feed her family. Luckily, the Texas AG had more empathy than the judge and ensured she was released from jail almost as quickly as she was put in there. There is a power grab in progress under the guise of a health crisis by small minded, petty bureaucrats and other government officials. People aren't going to tolerate too much more of it in many states. On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 1:39 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better > > > > Good post, OMar. You can't have too much empathy. There has to be more > of it to balance those who seem to have little of it - who care more about > banks and corporations than individuals. > > > > bill w > > > > > > Of course. > > > > What happens if those banks and corporations simultaneously fail, taking > individuals? money and livelihood with them? Do those corporations become > a collection of individuals? Do those banks become a collection of > individuals? capital? > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Fri May 8 17:58:30 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 12:58:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <001401d62533$6b312130$41936390$@rainier66.com> References: <00c601d62488$8d7055f0$a85101d0$@rainier66.com> <020501d6249f$2bd13820$8373a860$@rainier66.com> <00df01d624b8$37753960$a65fac20$@rainier66.com> <010b01d624bf$a265c3a0$e7314ae0$@rainier66.com> <0938F98C-F7FE-424B-A8B0-EB4E655C1BA5@gmail.com> <001401d62533$6b312130$41936390$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <7F059BF3-22EC-4F60-A8FD-413FE13028B8@gmail.com> I don?t have a good answer to that because that?s essentially what we?re doing. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/15/business/coronavirus-stimulus-money.html https://news.bitcoin.com/printing-money-from-thin-air-how-the-fed-reduces-purchasing-power-and-makes-you-poorer/ Money is a fiction. It can easily be ?taxed back out of existence?. SR Ballard > On May 8, 2020, at 7:23 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better > > >?Spike, I think you?re failing to realize this: If we wanted to, we could take the amount of the US debt and just... print that many dollars and just pay. Poof. Debt disappears in a puff of smoke. > > >?Money only exists because we all agree it exists. It has no intrinsic worth, beyond maybe butt wiping and kindling. > > >?SR Ballard > > > > > Hi SR, > > Many US states are being forced to re-open their economies before it is safe. They know it isn?t safe yet, and we all know it. It is crazy risky. It will cost lives. The consequences of that will be bad. > > In your view, if printing more money to pay off debts is an option (poof, debt disappears in a puff of smoke (just give the unemployed their former pay)) why aren?t we doing that? > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Fri May 8 18:00:40 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 13:00:40 -0500 Subject: [ExI] schools, was: RE: Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <00b101d62547$91c1ef00$b545cd00$@rainier66.com> References: <00b101d62547$91c1ef00$b545cd00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <654D99C3-1D97-4662-9873-1FF7148F34C8@gmail.com> I know this is going to sound draconian and backwards, but ... truancy officer. SR Ballard > On May 8, 2020, at 9:47 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > From: spike at rainier66.com > > >?Are there any other ideas? If economies open up and Covid cases go way up, or if economies don?t open up in spite of the risk, we will need other ideas, lots of them. Spike > > > Regarding ideas, I am soliciting ideas on other stuff besides economies. I have a pretty good idea how economies will go after hearing how much trouble the California government is in: they will realize that shutting down an economy for an extended period is ruinous as well as Covid. The governor (and the other 49 governors) will stand down soon methinks, even knowing it is very risky, for they already know and have seen what happens in the alternative. They are sailing between Scylla and Charybdis. > > What isn?t clear is public education. We are doing remote learning here, and it is working for some, not at all for others. The schools have been closed for the remainder of the academic year, but the plan is to return in August. If Covid cases shoot way up (certainly a plausible scenario) we can easily imagine the governor would close the schools but not the businesses (this is my prediction of what will happen.) The schools can pretend they are still operational, and they are? for some of the students. Academically the rich get richer, the poor get nothing (because they don?t show up.) > > If anyone wants to toss out ideas, please do. I am on an evaluation board offering the district superintendent a parents?-eye-view of remote learning. The board may not like what I have to say, but I will tell the truth: remote learning works well for some, but the best bet for actual learning is to forget watching their classroom lectures on Zoom and just go to Khan Academy: smarter lecturer, better IT, better everything. > > What if the caseload in the fall is a lot higher than now and we have enough test kits but we find that doesn?t help much because the virus has already spread before the first symptoms show up? Or what if it is about the same as now, or only a little lower: they would still need to keep the schools closed, ja? The shops and businesses will need to stay open for the most part, the ones which haven?t folded by then. But schools have the option of closing. > > Ideas? > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri May 8 18:00:58 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 11:00:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] schools, was: RE: Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <01c201d6255f$d98ff760$8cafe620$@rainier66.com> References: <00b101d62547$91c1ef00$b545cd00$@rainier66.com> <01c201d6255f$d98ff760$8cafe620$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 10:48 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > My suggestion is to stop all public mass transit, all buses, taxis, > trains, subways, everything. Then, everyone else goes back to work and > business. I know that still leaves a lot of people out of work and out of > luck. I get that. I don?t have all the answers. But I have that one: > public transit is the bad guy here, or certainly one of the very worst. > Governors do have the authority to close subways and buses. > And then give unemployment compensation to those who self-certify that they needed mass transit to get to work? (Which is often technically false - one *can* use taxis and other such services, just more expensively such that one can't pay other bills. The questions and legal thresholds usually leave off or discourage consideration of "while also paying all my other bills".) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri May 8 18:00:33 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 14:00:33 -0400 Subject: [ExI] schools, was: RE: Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <01c201d6255f$d98ff760$8cafe620$@rainier66.com> References: <00b101d62547$91c1ef00$b545cd00$@rainier66.com> <01c201d6255f$d98ff760$8cafe620$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 1:47 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > My suggestion is to stop all public mass transit, all buses, taxis, > trains, subways, everything. Then, everyone else goes back to work and > business. I know that still leaves a lot of people out of work and out of > luck. I get that. I don?t have all the answers. But I have that one: > public transit is the bad guy here, or certainly one of the very worst. > Governors do have the authority to close subways and buses. > > > > > Spike, I can tell you that this is not a practical suggestion for NYC unless you are planning on keeping it shuttered indefinitely until this crisis is over, and even then you will need to set up special transportation for essential workers to get to work. Public transit is the lifeblood of the city. Too many people depend on it to get from their homes in outer boroughs to their places of employment, and most people don't have cars. It's also an economic money pit to begin with that someone will end up bailing out if revenue were to stay at zero long term (Subway ridership is already down by 90% due to the lockdowns). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Fri May 8 18:07:39 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 13:07:39 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ai politicians In-Reply-To: References: <026c01d624f3$cdf2e9b0$69d8bd10$@rainier66.com> <028901d624f6$cf0a6cd0$6d1f4670$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: That?s what we already have. I have a binder of such letters. SR Ballard > On May 8, 2020, at 8:40 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Is that what we want from our politicians - boilerplate? bill w > >> On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 12:10 AM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> >> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat >> Subject: Re: [ExI] ai politicians >> >> >> >> Digital politician staff, perhaps. Do you think the politician actually composed those letters in the first place? Some of them might not have even read them. >> >> >> >> >> >> I assumed they were done by low-level staffers. I am suggesting it could be completely automated. They probably already are for the most part. The staffer would skim the letter in a few seconds, pick up on the subject, then reply with the gun letter, the Covid letter, the abortion letter, that kind of thing. I don?t suppose real politicians above about a state representative reads letters from the proletatiat. >> >> >> >> spike >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri May 8 18:45:02 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 11:45:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 9:56 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I'm confident that omitting data from the original body won't have any > significant effect on an uploaded mind. Apart from vague statements > about the body contributing to our consciousness, or our minds > 'extending into' the body, I've not heard of any evidence, or convincing > theory, to the contrary. > A lengthy article about exactly this topic came across my inbox just today. (I'm not sure if it's paywalled; please let me know if you can't read it.) https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/05/meet-psychobiome-gut-bacteria-may-alter-how-you-think-feel-and-act?utm_campaign=news_daily_2020-05-07&et_rid=17038235&et_cid=3318359 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 8 20:04:07 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 13:04:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <017401d6255c$ba509330$2ef1b990$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005401d62573$d55b5e50$80121af0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better >?We should also have empathy for those individuals who are willing to work and can't like the salon owner in Texas who was actually given jail time by a judge with zero empathy for violating a no work ordinance and standing up publicly for her rights and willingness to feed her family. Luckily, the Texas AG had more empathy than the judge and ensured she was released from jail almost as quickly as she was put in there. >?There is a power grab in progress under the guise of a health crisis by small minded, petty bureaucrats and other government officials. People aren't going to tolerate too much more of it in many states. Three good rules: Don?t mess with Texas. Don?t mess with Texas women and their hair. Don?t mess with Texas women who run businesses. Dylan this whole thing was a most interesting public lesson in civics. POTUS issued these lockdown orders. Immediately Californians began to ask by what authority can POTUS give us orders? Answer: none. So nothing much happened then, which is why the local representative was seen in Chinatown, clearly violating that order. Then states got into the act: our governor issued pretty similar orders, and again we wanted to know how the governor has the authority to make such demands. That one is a little more complicated, but the real question came down to what happens if the citizens refuse? If the locals choose to enforce the orders, what do they cite the shop owner for? The lockdown orders didn?t go thru the state legislature, so it isn?t actually a law. Answer: the local constabulary didn?t know, so they didn?t cite. Shrugs. Now in California we have a mixture of compliance: a some shops never closed, some opened today, some are still closed. In all this, the governor can scarcely be surprised if people from a state which defied federal law decided to defy state law. What remains to be seen is when (if ever) the economy recovers. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 8 20:06:31 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 13:06:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <7F059BF3-22EC-4F60-A8FD-413FE13028B8@gmail.com> References: <00c601d62488$8d7055f0$a85101d0$@rainier66.com> <020501d6249f$2bd13820$8373a860$@rainier66.com> <00df01d624b8$37753960$a65fac20$@rainier66.com> <010b01d624bf$a265c3a0$e7314ae0$@rainier66.com> <0938F98C-F7FE-424B-A8B0-EB4E655C1BA5@gmail.com> <001401d62533$6b312130$41936390$@rainier66.com> <7F059BF3-22EC-4F60-A8FD-413FE13028B8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <005b01d62574$2adc8f20$8095ad60$@rainier66.com> >>?In your view, if printing more money to pay off debts is an option (poof, debt disappears in a puff of smoke (just give the unemployed their former pay)) why aren?t we doing that? spike > On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better >?I don?t have a good answer to that because that?s essentially what we?re doing?SR Ballard Clearly not enough. If all we need to do is print money, then we should not be paying taxes. We should just print the money that would have been paid in taxes. It is remarkable no one discovered this marvelous theory before now. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 8 20:11:54 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 13:11:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] schools, was: RE: Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00b101d62547$91c1ef00$b545cd00$@rainier66.com> <01c201d6255f$d98ff760$8cafe620$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006901d62574$eb3ee510$c1bcaf30$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] schools, was: RE: Even India and Haiti do it better On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 10:48 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: My suggestion is to stop all public mass transit, all buses, taxis, trains, subways, everything. Then, everyone else goes back to work and business. I know that still leaves a lot of people out of work and out of luck. I get that. I don?t have all the answers. But I have that one: public transit is the bad guy here, or certainly one of the very worst. Governors do have the authority to close subways and buses. >?And then give unemployment compensation to those who self-certify that they needed mass transit to get to work? (Which is often technically false - one *can* use taxis and other such services, just more expensively such that one can't pay other bills. The questions and legal thresholds usually leave off or discourage consideration of "while also paying all my other bills".) Ja. Unemployment will be high of course, and the system might still fail with the rest of the non-urban areas working. But it would hold up for a while, which might be a good compromise. We have painted ourselves into a corner with those subways. There is no reason to believe this is the last epidemic. No matter how you cut it, those things will always be a health hazard. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri May 8 20:19:23 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 16:19:23 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <005401d62573$d55b5e50$80121af0$@rainier66.com> References: <017401d6255c$ba509330$2ef1b990$@rainier66.com> <005401d62573$d55b5e50$80121af0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 4:05 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > Then states got into the act: our governor issued pretty similar orders, > and again we wanted to know how the governor has the authority to make such > demands. That one is a little more complicated, but the real question came > down to what happens if the citizens refuse? If the locals choose to > enforce the orders, what do they cite the shop owner for? The lockdown > orders didn?t go thru the state legislature, so it isn?t actually a law. > Answer: the local constabulary didn?t know, so they didn?t cite. Shrugs. > > > Generally, there is ALWAYS something to charge someone with if the will is there. For example, in the Texas case, there was a law on the books allowing punishment of anyone violating an executive order. This law essentially allows executive orders from the Governor to be treated as law (I'm not even sure this is Constitutional but it is what it is). In any case, the AG took care of it and confinement is no longer an option for violating this particular executive order, but the unjust law sits on the books for the next time power needs to be applied. I will give you another example closer to home for me in my wonderful fiscally irresponsible state of Connecticut. I have a permit to carry pistols and long guns in the state. In particular, it allows me to carry a handgun concealed. The actual law is written for open carry. It does not specify that the firearm needs to be concealed. Under the permit law, I am welcome to carry open in CT. However, I was warned during my NRA licensed pistol permit class that if I made the decision to open carry in the state, I would immediately be arrested by the nearest cop for disturbing the peace, my firearm would be confiscated, and I would have to hire a lawyer/get the NRA involved to get it back and hopefully get the charges dismissed (no guarantee). There are enough laws on the books to make anyone not towing the official line a felon in short order. Land of the free indeed! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 8 20:24:21 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 13:24:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] schools, was: RE: Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00b101d62547$91c1ef00$b545cd00$@rainier66.com> <01c201d6255f$d98ff760$8cafe620$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008c01d62576$a8fcd980$faf68c80$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] schools, was: RE: Even India and Haiti do it better On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 1:47 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: My suggestion is to stop all public mass transit?Governors do have the authority to close subways and buses. >?Spike, I can tell you that this is not a practical suggestion for NYC?Too many people depend on it to get from their homes in outer boroughs to their places of employment, and most people don't have cars? Dylan Dylan I have seen it, and ja I know: NYC will become a nightmare until those subways can be made safe. It isn?t clear to me that they can ever be made safe. I can imagine office space being converted to residential units. Dylan one way or another? this system has grown inherently brittle. Something was eventually going to shatter it. This map is telling us something really important, whether we want to hear it or not: https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2020/may/05/coronavirus-map-of-the-us-latest-cases-state-by-state The rest of the country must get back to work, forthwith. Those areas were packed way closer than can be reasonably sustained. This strategy must be re-thought. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri May 8 20:48:37 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 15:48:37 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ai politicians In-Reply-To: References: <026c01d624f3$cdf2e9b0$69d8bd10$@rainier66.com> <028901d624f6$cf0a6cd0$6d1f4670$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Why in the world would you want to save them? bill w On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 1:32 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > That?s what we already have. I have a binder of such letters. > > SR Ballard > > On May 8, 2020, at 8:40 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Is that what we want from our politicians - boilerplate? bill w > > On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 12:10 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf >> Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat >> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] ai politicians >> >> >> >> Digital politician staff, perhaps. Do you think the politician actually >> composed those letters in the first place? Some of them might not have >> even read them. >> >> >> >> >> >> I assumed they were done by low-level staffers. I am suggesting it could >> be completely automated. They probably already are for the most part. The >> staffer would skim the letter in a few seconds, pick up on the subject, >> then reply with the gun letter, the Covid letter, the abortion letter, that >> kind of thing. I don?t suppose real politicians above about a state >> representative reads letters from the proletatiat. >> >> >> >> spike >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 8 21:03:00 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 14:03:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] map of covid cases Message-ID: <006401d6257c$0fd7ed70$2f87c850$@rainier66.com> This map from the Johns Hopkins site is very informative. The map below is about 100 km side to side, so think of it as a 50 km radius from the statue of liberty. At this scale it is hard to see, but this is the Covid-19 epicenter of the USA, the mouth of the Hudson River. https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/us-map The worst county is Queens, to the right of the harbor where the Statue of Liberty stands. Cook county is in Chicago. Kings is to the west of Queens. Bronx is north of Queens. Nassau is east of Queens. Suffolk county is everything out to the east on Long Island. Westchester county is the next one north of Bronx. Los Angeles county gets in there, then New York county. You wouldn't be very far off if you said the Statue of Liberty is ground zero for Covid in the US, and those are counties around there are the ones most dependent on mass transit. I know it isn't a good solution and doesn't work for everyone, but it is clear enough what needs to happen. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 65678 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Fri May 8 21:15:37 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 16:15:37 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ai politicians In-Reply-To: References: <026c01d624f3$cdf2e9b0$69d8bd10$@rainier66.com> <028901d624f6$cf0a6cd0$6d1f4670$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <715C2207-BE32-491F-BB32-F9358CC61281@gmail.com> It seems odd, but makes sense in context. The one from the Pope?s secretary, one Paolo -BORGIA- I keep for sentimental reasons. Everything else is to answer the questions, ?Well, why don?t you just write your representatives? That?ll make things change.? I also keep a copy of the letter I sent them. Some of them are quite comically missing the point of my letters. I even have examples of letters I wrote back explaining why their response was useless. In this example I sent about 100 letters, and received less than 40 replies, with only 2 responces that -maybe- could be made by someone who actually read my letters. Or just better boilerplates. I did this experiment in 2018, so I might try again this year, and actually keep track of the response rate. Email was even worse. SR Ballard > On May 8, 2020, at 3:48 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Why in the world would you want to save them? bill w > >> On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 1:32 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >> That?s what we already have. I have a binder of such letters. >> >> SR Ballard >> >>> On May 8, 2020, at 8:40 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> Is that what we want from our politicians - boilerplate? bill w >>> >>>> On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 12:10 AM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat >>>> Subject: Re: [ExI] ai politicians >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Digital politician staff, perhaps. Do you think the politician actually composed those letters in the first place? Some of them might not have even read them. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I assumed they were done by low-level staffers. I am suggesting it could be completely automated. They probably already are for the most part. The staffer would skim the letter in a few seconds, pick up on the subject, then reply with the gun letter, the Covid letter, the abortion letter, that kind of thing. I don?t suppose real politicians above about a state representative reads letters from the proletatiat. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> spike >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri May 8 22:25:11 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 15:25:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Closing subways Message-ID: spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > My suggestion is to stop all public mass transit, all buses, taxis, > trains, subways, everything. Then, everyone else goes back to work and > business. I know that still leaves a lot of people out of work and out of > luck. I get that. I don?t have all the answers. But I have that one: > public transit is the bad guy here, Spike, this is total nonsense. It's the damn virus, not public transport that is the bad guy. Unless a treatment or a vaccine comes along, the only effect of crowing people together is to speed up how fast the virus burns through the population. (Assuming we can't control the infection spread.) Right now it is the poor who live and work in crowded places who are getting hit, but eventually, it will burn through those segments of the population then move on to upper economic classes. NYC grew up on public transport. There is no way to get around public transport short of abandoning the city. If we wanted to do something useful, we would be thinking about inexpensive ways to keep people from inhaling the virus particles. There are certainly expensive ways to do it, a battery-powered personal air filter system goes for about $1800. Keith From rahmans at me.com Fri May 8 22:58:09 2020 From: rahmans at me.com (Omar Rahman) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 00:58:09 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better Message-ID: > >>> ?In your view, if printing more money to pay off debts is an option (poof, debt disappears in a puff of smoke (just give the unemployed their former pay)) why aren?t we doing that? > > spike > > >> On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better > >> ?I don?t have a good answer to that because that?s essentially what we?re doing?SR Ballard > > Clearly not enough. If all we need to do is print money, then we should not be paying taxes. We should just print the money that would have been paid in taxes. > > It is remarkable no one discovered this marvelous theory before now. > > spike > Fiscal discipline is indeed something that helps maintain the value of our money. In that situation we quite literally trust that our money is being well spent. We all know that turning on an endless firehose of money is the financial equivalent of a ?perpetual motion machine?. But isn?t that what has been going on for decades of deficits? And NOW you want some fiscal responsibility? There is another flip side to fiscal responsibility, paying taxes. The whole deficit spending/?perpetual motion machine?/Ponzi economics which endorses bailouts for corporations simultaneously doesn?t tax them. Win-win, in the sense that the corporations win twice. Quite literally ?less is more?, the government will be better off by not having THEIR money. (It?ll trickle down and magically multiply! Ponzi much?) Deficit spending *SHOULD* be reserved for crises like the present pandemic. We have been running deficits for decades all the while income inequality has been increasing. In a country with all the technology, resources, and food that the US has, somehow people can?t manage a couple months of quarantine? It isn?t because the US can?t it?s because the US won?t. The defence production act, CDC guidelines, Pandemic task forces, stockpiles of masks and ventilators. It was all in place until the ?make government small enough small enough so that we can drown it in a bathtub? crowd deliberately got rid of it all. That?s been the clearly articulated plan for a long time, it wasn?t a secret. As I write this there is the second confirmed case of covid-19 in the President and Vice-President?s staff. For a supposed germaphobe Trump has been rather blas? about the whole thing; I wonder how President "I don?t need to wear a mask to the mask factory.? Trump will react tomorrow. Maybe, just maybe, he?ll start to act systematically to implement the plans that were put in place years ago after countless hours of scientific research. Who the hell am I kidding, he?ll probably be tweet storming about deep state conspiracies to infect him. And urging people to pick up guns rather than masks. Here?s another economic equations for you all: as the value of a gun in one hand goes up the value of money in the other hand goes down. If you think the economic situation is bad just wait until some bunch of paranoid ?Liberate State XYZ? protesters start using those weapons that they bring. Does anyone want to give me some sort of over/under on the if vs. when of one of the protests ?going loud?? Put down the guns: that way I?ll have more trust that you won?t shoot me. Put on a mask: that way I?ll have more trust you won?t infect me. More trust = more money. It is so so simple really, Omar Rahman From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri May 8 23:19:00 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 18:19:00 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ai politicians In-Reply-To: <715C2207-BE32-491F-BB32-F9358CC61281@gmail.com> References: <026c01d624f3$cdf2e9b0$69d8bd10$@rainier66.com> <028901d624f6$cf0a6cd0$6d1f4670$@rainier66.com> <715C2207-BE32-491F-BB32-F9358CC61281@gmail.com> Message-ID: They are only interested in money from their constituents. So you could write a letter requesting reasons why you should donate some of your lottery winnings (that will get their attention - you have big bucks) to the representative. OK, so you are lying. They probably tell more lies in a day than you do in three months. If might be fun! bill w On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 4:18 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > It seems odd, but makes sense in context. > > The one from the Pope?s secretary, one Paolo -BORGIA- I keep for > sentimental reasons. > > Everything else is to answer the questions, ?Well, why don?t you just > write your representatives? That?ll make things change.? > > I also keep a copy of the letter I sent them. Some of them are quite > comically missing the point of my letters. I even have examples of letters > I wrote back explaining why their response was useless. > > In this example I sent about 100 letters, and received less than 40 > replies, with only 2 responces that -maybe- could be made by someone who > actually read my letters. Or just better boilerplates. > > I did this experiment in 2018, so I might try again this year, and > actually keep track of the response rate. > > Email was even worse. > > SR Ballard > > On May 8, 2020, at 3:48 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Why in the world would you want to save them? bill w > > On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 1:32 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> That?s what we already have. I have a binder of such letters. >> >> SR Ballard >> >> On May 8, 2020, at 8:40 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> Is that what we want from our politicians - boilerplate? bill w >> >> On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 12:10 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> *From:* extropy-chat *On >>> Behalf Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat >>> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] ai politicians >>> >>> >>> >>> Digital politician staff, perhaps. Do you think the politician actually >>> composed those letters in the first place? Some of them might not have >>> even read them. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I assumed they were done by low-level staffers. I am suggesting it >>> could be completely automated. They probably already are for the most >>> part. The staffer would skim the letter in a few seconds, pick up on the >>> subject, then reply with the gun letter, the Covid letter, the abortion >>> letter, that kind of thing. I don?t suppose real politicians above about a >>> state representative reads letters from the proletatiat. >>> >>> >>> >>> spike >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 8 23:32:37 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 16:32:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <009701d62590$f5de1920$e19a4b60$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Omar Rahman via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better > >>> ... if printing more money to pay off debts is an option why aren't we doing that? > > spike >...Deficit spending *SHOULD* be reserved for crises like the present pandemic... Omar Omar, I couldn't have said it better. That was the most profound comment posted on this entire thread. spike From sparge at gmail.com Fri May 8 23:36:08 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 19:36:08 -0400 Subject: [ExI] US debt (was: Even India and Haiti do it better) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 8, 2020, 7:00 PM Omar Rahman via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > We all know that turning on an endless firehose of money is the financial > equivalent of a ?perpetual motion machine?. But isn?t that what has been > going on for decades of deficits? And NOW you want some fiscal > responsibility? > No, we had four years of surpluses from '98 to '01. And many of us have been calling for balanced budgets for decades. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com Sat May 9 01:17:28 2020 From: ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com (ilsa) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 18:17:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] map of covid cases In-Reply-To: <006401d6257c$0fd7ed70$2f87c850$@rainier66.com> References: <006401d6257c$0fd7ed70$2f87c850$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: does this site allow me to know if there is a confirmed case in my building when I researched in the sight it said confirmed one does that mean it has one case here On Fri, May 8, 2020, 2:03 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > This map from the Johns Hopkins site is very informative. The map below > is about 100 km side to side, so think of it as a 50 km radius from the > statue of liberty. > > > > At this scale it is hard to see, but this is the Covid-19 epicenter of the > USA, the mouth of the Hudson River. > > > > https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/us-map > > > > > > > > The worst county is Queens, to the right of the harbor where the Statue of > Liberty stands. Cook county is in Chicago. Kings is to the west of > Queens. Bronx is north of Queens. Nassau is east of Queens. Suffolk > county is everything out to the east on Long Island. Westchester county is > the next one north of Bronx. Los Angeles county gets in there, then New > York county. > > > > You wouldn?t be very far off if you said the Statue of Liberty is ground > zero for Covid in the US, and those are counties around there are the ones > most dependent on mass transit. > > > > I know it isn?t a good solution and doesn?t work for everyone, but it is > clear enough what needs to happen. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 65678 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 65678 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat May 9 04:21:13 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 21:21:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] recorder ring Message-ID: <015001d625b9$46e8aec0$d4ba0c40$@rainier66.com> Perhaps some data hipsters can educate me. We have a debate currently on what should be the standard of evidence when a student accuses another student of improprieties of any kind. It seems like men are inherently vulnerable to accusation which doesn't need proof (because usually there isn't any.) We could imagine some kind of device students could wear which would archive their location and record bits of sound, say a tenth of a second every second should be enough for what I have in mind. It is unlikely to be able to reconstruct a conversation from that, but it could establish innocence of an accused person by archiving a location and a background noise description (roughly.) This device would need to be something one wouldn't take off when taking things off, such as a ring. It would need a Bluetooth transmitter to send digital files to a phone (which would add location info and archive.) If we could get enough students wearing these kinds of devices, it might lead us out of a deadlock where we don't know how much weight to put on accusations. The accused could produce evidence. I don't know what kind of data-storage capacity such a thing would require, if the phone could dump info to a desktop computer each day. Any hipsters on that here? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat May 9 03:54:23 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 20:54:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] brittle systems Message-ID: <013701d625b5$873da240$95b8e6c0$@rainier66.com> We have long known the extended metropolis areas have grown dependent on brittle subsystems, such as mass transit in New York and Chicago. OK so we saw that system shattered. We recognize there are no good solutions to it: the city grew up on mass transit and needs it, even after it is clear that these systems make social distancing is impossible for the passengers. There?s no clear way to break the habit. The current emergency has pointed out other weak spots, such as nursing homes. I am now thinking we have other brittle systems we don?t even know about yet. Any ideas what will be the next one to be revealed? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sat May 9 09:04:36 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 10:04:36 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41ce6cb7-9243-15e0-0a95-3d6e6f6c004c@zaiboc.net> On 08/05/2020 21:04, Adrian Tymes wrote: > On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 9:56 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > > wrote: > > I'm confident that omitting data from the original body won't have > any > significant effect on an uploaded mind. Apart from vague statements > about the body contributing to our consciousness, or our minds > 'extending into' the body, I've not heard of any evidence, or > convincing > theory, to the contrary. > > > A lengthy article about exactly this topic came across my inbox just > today.? (I'm not sure if it's paywalled; please let me know if you > can't read it.) > https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/05/meet-psychobiome-gut-bacteria-may-alter-how-you-think-feel-and-act > Summary: Microbes prompt neuropod cells in the gut lining to stimulate the vagus nerve, which connects directly to the brain. More indirectly, microbes? activate enteroendocrine cells in the gut lining, which send hormones throughout the body. Even more indirectly, gut microbes influence immune cells and inflammation, which can affect the brain. Yes, I'm familiar with the concept. The microbiome indirectly provides another set of inputs to the brain. Doesn't change my argument (all these things 'connect to' or 'affect' the brain. So do our muscle spindles, pressure sensors in the skin, semi-circular canals, etc., etc. It doesn't matter). I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the coeliac plexus (solar plexus), which is sometimes referred to as our 'second brain' (a wild exaggeration, as it's nowhere near as large or complex as the brain). It controls the digestive system, acting as a sub-brain, in a similar way, as far as I understand, to the cerebellum does with respect to movement (although not in its structure or effective size). I very much doubt it's important for uploading, though. I think that, as far as my solar plexus has contributed to my personality, I'd be happy to have a 'standard model' version substituted for my actual one in an upload. I've not yet heard a single good reason why more than the brain is needed for successful upldoading (when the information from the brain is combined with a default virtual body model (which only needs to be created once, then slight variations of it could be made available to everyone), and the whole thing is provided with a suitable virtual external environment (which we already have many examples of)). -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat May 9 09:13:52 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 02:13:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] recorder ring In-Reply-To: <015001d625b9$46e8aec0$d4ba0c40$@rainier66.com> References: <015001d625b9$46e8aec0$d4ba0c40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Google Earth/Maps already tracks your location passively - and tries to promote it as a service. Get the kinds of smartphones that college kids carry around constantly, more accurate GPSes that work indoors, and your idea becomes close to reality. On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 9:29 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Perhaps some data hipsters can educate me. > > > > We have a debate currently on what should be the standard of evidence when > a student accuses another student of improprieties of any kind. It seems > like men are inherently vulnerable to accusation which doesn?t need proof > (because usually there isn?t any.) > > > > We could imagine some kind of device students could wear which would > archive their location and record bits of sound, say a tenth of a second > every second should be enough for what I have in mind. It is unlikely to > be able to reconstruct a conversation from that, but it could establish > innocence of an accused person by archiving a location and a background > noise description (roughly.) > > > > This device would need to be something one wouldn?t take off when taking > things off, such as a ring. It would need a Bluetooth transmitter to send > digital files to a phone (which would add location info and archive.) > > > > If we could get enough students wearing these kinds of devices, it might > lead us out of a deadlock where we don?t know how much weight to put on > accusations. The accused could produce evidence. > > > > I don?t know what kind of data-storage capacity such a thing would > require, if the phone could dump info to a desktop computer each day. Any > hipsters on that here? > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat May 9 09:56:22 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 05:56:22 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 7:00 PM Omar Rahman via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: * > Deficit spending *SHOULD* be reserved for crises like the present > pandemic.* > Deficit spending is especially important in a crisis like this, whatever negative impact it may have it's insignificant compared with the harm caused by not doing it. I think Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal saved the nation from a Communist or Fascist revolution, during the Great Depression people wouldn't have stood for a federal government that just watched and did nothing as they starved to death, and that's pretty much what most republicans of the era recommended. Some things never change. > *We have been running deficits for decades* For nearly 2 centuries actually interrupted only by the Clinton years. > *all the while income inequality has been increasing.* Not just increasing but accelerating. As I have said before one way or another that trend will NOT continue and some endings are more unpleasant than others. The super mega ultra rich are fools if they ignore that. * > As I write this there is the second confirmed case of covid-19 in the > President and Vice-President?s staff. For a supposed germaphobe Trump has > been rather blas? about the whole thing;* If Trump doesn't get sick we will have final definitive proof that there is no God. > *> I wonder how President "I don?t need to wear a mask to the mask > factory.? Trump will react tomorrow.* When Trump visited the mask factory without wearing a mask and recommended everything reopen the song "Live And Let Die" was playing in the background. The symbolism was perfect! * > Who the hell am I kidding, he?ll probably be tweet storming about deep > state conspiracies to infect him. * I predict he's going to start saying the official death numbers from COVID-19 are fake news and it's all just a liberal conspiracy from the deep state and actually there is no virus at all. But it's still all China's fault for starting the virus. And it's all Obama's fault for not having developed a test for COVID-19, the fact that the virus didn't even exist when he was in power is no excuse. By the way, the new death number for America is 78,616. and at the beginning of March the number was zero. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat May 9 12:48:27 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 05:48:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003001d62600$22fd00f0$68f702d0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >?If Trump doesn't get sick we will have final definitive proof that there is no God? Are there any others besides him you would like to see die? >? By the way, the new death number for America is 78,616. and at the beginning of March the number was zero. John K Clark John, this makes it sound like you are cheering for the virus. Is that what you intend? Do you see why your bitter commentary does the opposite of its face value? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat May 9 13:52:16 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 09:52:16 -0400 Subject: [ExI] schools, was: RE: Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <01c201d6255f$d98ff760$8cafe620$@rainier66.com> References: <00b101d62547$91c1ef00$b545cd00$@rainier66.com> <01c201d6255f$d98ff760$8cafe620$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 1:49 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> the overall signal is clear enough: infections per capita are all about > population density. * The population of Seoul South Korea is 9.7 million and has a area of 234 square miles giving a population density of 41 thousand per square mile. New York City has a population of 8.4 million and a area of 469 square miles giving a population density of 18 thousand per square miles. So the population of Seoul is 2.28 times denser than New York City. > *The hardest-hit areas are those dependent on mass transit.* Seoul's subway system is almost as long as New York's, 220 miles versus 236 miles, and Seoul has a much higher annual ridership, 2837 million versus 1680 million. South Korea reported its first case of COVID-19 on the same day the US did, and 7 weeks ago both countries had the same number of deaths from it, but today 26,358 people in New York City have died of COVID-19 but in all of South Korea (not just Seoul) there have only been 256 deaths. So Spike, your theory just doesn't fit the facts, and when a theory doesn't fit the facts it must be abandoned. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robot at ultimax.com Sat May 9 13:38:49 2020 From: robot at ultimax.com (robot at ultimax.com) Date: Sat, 09 May 2020 09:38:49 -0400 Subject: [ExI] map of covid cases In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <192ba5e938f6fcb89d1cece466732217@ultimax.com> How does the reader know that the Navajo Nation is the worst hit in the country? Because the Din? dwell in three of the four states around the Four Corners area (clockwise: NM, AZ, UT, but not CO). https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/us-map Sure enough, you can see the cutout from 12 to 3 o'clock, which is the Colorado quadrant of Four Corners. That's the tell. You'd have to have worked there to know this. My poor clients. (I've been doing big solar for the Din? on and off for the last decade.) Well, Spike, thanks for sharing, anyway. K3 PS. Happy V-E Day, btw. 75th anniversary. If I wasn't so preoccupied by the pandemic, I'd have paid more attention to historical mile posts... On Fri, 8 May 2020, wrote: . ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > Date: 14:03:00 -0700 > To: "'ExI chat list'" > Cc: > Subject: [ExI] > > https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/us-map From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat May 9 14:15:38 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 09:15:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] religion again Message-ID: "Every day people are straying away from the church and going back to God." Lenny Bruce "Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich." Napoleon bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat May 9 14:19:09 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 10:19:09 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <003001d62600$22fd00f0$68f702d0$@rainier66.com> References: <003001d62600$22fd00f0$68f702d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 8:51 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > >? By the way, the new death number for America is 78,616. and at the >> beginning of March the number was zero. John K Clark > > > > *John, this makes it sound like you are cheering for the virus. * > I'm sorry if it makes you uncomfortable to be reminded of the grim reality that an American dies of this virus about every 49 seconds, but with all Trump's grandiose talk of opening up and getting back to normal it might be relevant to remember that people are suffering and dying right now, and Trump's idea would make it much worse. And I'm not likely to be cheering the virus when I could very well become Trump's next victim. And the new number is 78,701. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat May 9 14:25:02 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 09:25:02 -0500 Subject: [ExI] schools, was: RE: Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00b101d62547$91c1ef00$b545cd00$@rainier66.com> <01c201d6255f$d98ff760$8cafe620$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The problem with comparing Koreans and people from New York City is the difference between Asians in general and Americans in general. National character matters. Asian are raised to conform and not stick out, not even raising your hand in class to ask a question because that calls attention to yourself. So, whatever the masses are doing, that's what Asians want to do. Americans are individualists and conformity is anathema - at least comparatively speaking. Just give us a rule and we'll find a way around it. "Don't tell me what to do!" Contrarians teem. bill w On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 8:55 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 1:49 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> the overall signal is clear enough: infections per capita are all about >> population density. * > > > The population of Seoul South Korea is 9.7 million and has a area of 234 > square miles giving a population density of 41 thousand per square mile. > New York City has a population of 8.4 million and a area of 469 square > miles giving a population density of 18 thousand per square miles. So the > population of Seoul is 2.28 times denser than New York City. > > > *The hardest-hit areas are those dependent on mass transit.* > > > Seoul's subway system is almost as long as New York's, 220 miles versus > 236 miles, and Seoul has a much higher annual ridership, 2837 million > versus 1680 million. > > South Korea reported its first case of COVID-19 on the same day the US did > , and 7 weeks ago both countries had the same number of deaths from it, > but today 26,358 people in New York City have died of COVID-19 but in all > of South Korea (not just Seoul) there have only been 256 deaths. > > So Spike, your theory just doesn't fit the facts, and when a theory > doesn't fit the facts it must be abandoned. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat May 9 14:26:40 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 10:26:40 -0400 Subject: [ExI] religion again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 10:18 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: "Every day people are straying away from the church and going back to > God." Lenny Bruce > > "Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich." Napoleon > "The gods offer no rewards for intellect. There was never one yet that showed any interest in it." Mark Twain John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat May 9 14:43:35 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 07:43:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <003001d62600$22fd00f0$68f702d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008a01d62610$389c7c00$a9d57400$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >? By the way, the new death number for America is 78,616. and at the beginning of March the number was zero. John K Clark John, this makes it sound like you are cheering for the virus. >?I'm sorry if it makes you uncomfortable? Does it make you comfortable? It feels like you are trying to leverage a crisis into an opportunity. >?to be reminded of the grim reality that an American dies of this virus about every 49 seconds, but with all Trump's grandiose talk? The Federal government doesn?t have the final say on that. It can advise, but governors have a lot more authority, counties and cities make the final call. So why keep focusing attention up where it doesn?t do much good? From what I can tell, this is mostly a county-level leadership issue, where county health departments make the call. That is what is going on in California: the counties with the biggest cities are setting the strictest standards. That causes problems for those of us who don?t live in those cities, but out here in the suburbs. If presidents are really that important, I don?t see you posting curses on Xi Jinping. Why is that? >?of opening up and getting back to normal it might be relevant to remember that people are suffering and dying right now, and Trump's idea would make it much worse? Trump doesn?t make the call on that. Never let a good crisis go to waste? >?And I'm not likely to be cheering the virus when I could very well become Trump's next victim. And the new number is 78,701. John K Clark May you escape all illness John. May we all. We cannot effectively make nation-level rules that apply to everyone. Even state level is difficult, with a perfect example being New York. That is a state completely dominated by the city. Most of New York is rural, with plenty of people who do not get paid if their businesses stay closed because of rules designed for the city. They are pissed. They want to re-open, and they should if they can do it safely. They don?t have subways, they don?t have high-rise condos out there. A lot of upstate New York is as sparsely populated as the Midwest. There are co-factors in New York city with the mass transit: they have the tall buildings. I haven?t heard of studies on whether people who live and work in those buildings but I would think that is what we should be examining. It makes sense to me that people in there share hallways, offices, breath each others? air. In about a dozen locations, we have created a system inherently vulnerable to contagion. I see no good way to undo that. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sat May 9 15:01:36 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 08:01:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] religion again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <534A75B6-F084-4A87-9887-F2C8B5EA55A1@gmail.com> On May 9, 2020, at 7:17 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > "Every day people are straying away from the church and going back to God." Lenny Bruce > > "Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich." Napoleon > > bill w ?A man needs God like a fish needs a bicycle?. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat May 9 15:21:31 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 08:21:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <008a01d62610$389c7c00$a9d57400$@rainier66.com> References: <003001d62600$22fd00f0$68f702d0$@rainier66.com> <008a01d62610$389c7c00$a9d57400$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00c401d62615$85898800$909c9800$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Subject: RE: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better From: extropy-chat > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >? By the way, the new death number for America is 78,616? John K Clark John, this makes it sound like you are cheering for the virus. >>?I'm sorry if it makes you uncomfortable? >?Does it make you comfortable? ?spike Note the title of this thread. According to this site, the doubling time of cases in the USA is 23 days. The doubling time in Sweden (the country which never shut down) is 22 days. https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases The countries which this thread title claims do it better: Haiti, has a doubling time of 12 days, and India has a doubling time of 11 days: Do explain please, what Haiti and India are doing better? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat May 9 15:24:05 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 10:24:05 -0500 Subject: [ExI] religion again In-Reply-To: <534A75B6-F084-4A87-9887-F2C8B5EA55A1@gmail.com> References: <534A75B6-F084-4A87-9887-F2C8B5EA55A1@gmail.com> Message-ID: Shame - stealing from the feminists. bill w > > ?A man needs God like a fish needs a bicycle?. > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books at: > http://author.to/DanUst > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat May 9 15:25:09 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 10:25:09 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <008a01d62610$389c7c00$a9d57400$@rainier66.com> References: <003001d62600$22fd00f0$68f702d0$@rainier66.com> <008a01d62610$389c7c00$a9d57400$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Yea!! I am going back to my barber next week. I will be very interested to see what 6 foot scissors look like. bill On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 9:45 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > > > > >? By the way, the new death number for America is 78,616. and at the > beginning of March the number was zero. John K Clark > > *John, this makes it sound like you are cheering for the virus. * > > > > >?I'm sorry if it makes you uncomfortable? > > > > Does it make you comfortable? It feels like you are trying to leverage a > crisis into an opportunity. > > > > >?to be reminded of the grim reality that an American dies of this virus > about every 49 seconds, but with all Trump's grandiose talk? > > > > The Federal government doesn?t have the final say on that. It can advise, > but governors have a lot more authority, counties and cities make the final > call. So why keep focusing attention up where it doesn?t do much good? > From what I can tell, this is mostly a county-level leadership issue, where > county health departments make the call. That is what is going on in > California: the counties with the biggest cities are setting the strictest > standards. That causes problems for those of us who don?t live in those > cities, but out here in the suburbs. > > > > If presidents are really that important, I don?t see you posting curses on > Xi Jinping. Why is that? > > > > >?of opening up and getting back to normal it might be relevant to > remember that people are suffering and dying right now, and Trump's idea > would make it much worse? > > > > Trump doesn?t make the call on that. Never let a good crisis go to waste? > > > > >?And I'm not likely to be cheering the virus when I could very well > become Trump's next victim. And the new number is 78,701. John K Clark > > > > May you escape all illness John. May we all. > > > > We cannot effectively make nation-level rules that apply to everyone. > Even state level is difficult, with a perfect example being New York. That > is a state completely dominated by the city. Most of New York is rural, > with plenty of people who do not get paid if their businesses stay closed > because of rules designed for the city. They are pissed. They want to > re-open, and they should if they can do it safely. They don?t have > subways, they don?t have high-rise condos out there. A lot of upstate New > York is as sparsely populated as the Midwest. > > > > There are co-factors in New York city with the mass transit: they have the > tall buildings. I haven?t heard of studies on whether people who live and > work in those buildings but I would think that is what we should be > examining. It makes sense to me that people in there share hallways, > offices, breath each others? air. In about a dozen locations, we have > created a system inherently vulnerable to contagion. I see no good way to > undo that. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sat May 9 16:02:41 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 09:02:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] religion again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The ?fish without a bicycle? trope predates Irina Dunn?s catchphrase (which was later popularized by Gloria Steinem). I don?t think this tells the whole story, but see: https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/a-woman-needs-a-man-like-a-fish-needs-a-bicycle.html Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst On May 9, 2020, at 8:31 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > ? > Shame - stealing from the feminists. bill w >> >> ?A man needs God like a fish needs a bicycle?. >> >> Regards, >> >> Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat May 9 16:15:38 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 09:15:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <010e01d6261b$7c6fc300$754f4900$@rainier66.com> References: <003001d62600$22fd00f0$68f702d0$@rainier66.com> <008a01d62610$389c7c00$a9d57400$@rainier66.com> <00c401d62615$85898800$909c9800$@rainier66.com> <00f801d6261a$470f7990$d52e6cb0$@rainier66.com> <010e01d6261b$7c6fc300$754f4900$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <014b01d6261d$1497d450$3dc77cf0$@rainier66.com> This comment just came out minutes ago: MUSD, City continues to provide resources to support emotional, physical, and mental wellbeing Milpitas, CA ? May 9, 2020 ? FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE On May 7, 2020, Governor Newsom announced upcoming changes to the statewide stay-at-home order, emphasizing that science, data, and public health will be used to determine safe reopening or relaxing of the order. Local conditions will take precedence over the statewide order, and more restrictive orders or guidelines by a city or county will need to be followed in that area. For more information please visit the State of California?s Resilience Roadmap ? {local school board} In California, the governor announced yesterday that the state budget has taken a horrendous hit. He runs a big enough state that he already knows the Fed cannot help, and he knows he can?t keep the state closed. He also knows he has taxation options the Fed doesn?t have (he can get the legislature to raise sales tax, income tax and gas tax as high as necessary (but not property tax (yaaay Prop 13!))) The governor already knows that some counties and cities have told him to go to hell with his restrictions, and there just isn?t much he can do about it. Some rural north California counties have already opened up everything except public schools. This school board announcement makes it clear that the county and city governments make the final call. Santa Clara county is taking a hardline stay-closed stance over state requirements announced yesterday. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sat May 9 16:16:33 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 17:16:33 +0100 Subject: [ExI] religion again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <64af9b51-eabe-19c7-f3df-88dfcb4522b6@zaiboc.net> > "Every day people are straying away from the church and going back to > God."? Lenny Bruce > > "Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."? Napoleon > > bill w Every day, people are abandoning religion and waking up to reality. Perhaps the rich should be worried! -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat May 9 16:46:14 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 12:46:14 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <008a01d62610$389c7c00$a9d57400$@rainier66.com> References: <003001d62600$22fd00f0$68f702d0$@rainier66.com> <008a01d62610$389c7c00$a9d57400$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 10:45 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *It feels like you are trying to leverage a crisis into an opportunity.* > I know it's not politically correct to say but I think if somebody can profit from a tragedy, or turn a crisis into a opportunity, or turn a lemon into lemonade, or in general find a way to extract a little good from something very bad then that would be nothing to be ashamed of, in fact I'd say it would be a very Extropian thing to do, at least in Max's original meaning of the word. >> ?to be reminded of the grim reality that an American dies of this virus >> about every 49 seconds, but with all Trump's grandiose talk? > > > > *> The Federal government doesn?t have the final say on that. * > If sure doesn't as long as Trump is running the show, although you can be certain that whenever something good happens Trump will claim 100% of the credit, and when something bad happens he will claim that's not his department and blame governors or mayors or China or above all blame Barack Obama. The sign on Trump's desk says "The Buck Stops Anywhere But Here". > > *I don?t see you posting curses on Xi Jinping. Why is that?* > Because my Chinese paymasters wouldn't like it obviously. >?of opening up and getting back to normal it might be relevant to remember >> that people are suffering and dying right now, and Trump's idea would make >> it much worse? > > > > > *> Trump doesn?t make the call on that. * > Trump very strongly disagrees: When somebody is president of the United States, the authority is total *> May you escape all illness John.* And you too Spike. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat May 9 18:48:57 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 11:48:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <003001d62600$22fd00f0$68f702d0$@rainier66.com> <008a01d62610$389c7c00$a9d57400$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004201d62632$7f66c470$7e344d50$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 10:45 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > It feels like you are trying to leverage a crisis into an opportunity. >?I know it's not politically correct to say but I think if somebody can profit from a tragedy, or turn a crisis into a opportunity, or turn a lemon into lemonade, or in general find a way to extract a little good from something very bad then that would be nothing to be ashamed of? If a tragedy is used to seize political power, that isn?t turning a tragedy to an opportunity, it is turning it into a greater tragedy. It causes increased distrust. John it worked in this case: people who read your posts don?t trust your judgement or your cause. Some of us think it is an elaborate false flag attack rather than the totalitarian manifesto it appears to be. Plenty of us know what really happened here: this virus jumped from bats to humans in Wuhan, China attempted to contain it while covering it up, foreign nationals became infected, it got loose, spread across the globe, governments were ineffective in stopping it, regardless of what they did or didn?t do, hundreds of thousands have died and many more will. This is not an opportunity to profit, it is a tragedy. Any political leader who uses this tragedy as an opportunity to seize power is never to be trusted. Vote em out. >? in fact I'd say it would be a very Extropian thing to do, at least in Max's original meaning of the word? I very much disagree. Using the Covid pandemic to promote any political view is deplorable, even libertarianism, which is why I haven?t gone there. Libertarianism, where it exists, didn?t stop this, no brand of political thought seems to have made much difference in the long run. The virus doesn?t know or care what political party is in charge. >> ?to be reminded of the grim reality that an American dies of this virus about every 49 seconds, but with all Trump's grandiose talk? > The Federal government doesn?t have the final say on that. >?If sure doesn't as long as Trump is running the show? Doubling down will not help. The pandemic was not a failing of any politician or political philosophy other than China, but it certainly pointed out some really obvious vulnerabilities not connected directly to politics: we have built cities that are inherently vulnerable to this sort of thing. We don?t even know what other vulnerabilities have quietly evolved, but I suspect we have more of them. Persistently running a federal-level deficit creates a situation where the Federal government cannot respond effectively in an actual emergency. Deficits and borrowing are for emergencies, not for standard operations. >? when something bad happens he will claim that's not his department and blame governors or mayors or China? Not governors, not mayors, not his department, YES CHINA! Yes China damn sure is to blame, you bet your ass they are at fault here, grievously so. China kept this quiet, hoping to contain it, which put the entire planet at risk. They influenced the World Health Organization to assure governments all over Europe to keep their borders open too long. China is to blame for that. No government has been able to contain this outbreak, not one. Some delayed it a little, but none stopped it. China externalized risk to the entire planet, and we are all paying the devastating price. Economies everywhere will be crushed, regardless of what form of government they have, every country, everywhere. The virus was late getting to Africa, but the overall crushing impact will likely be worse there: they have fewer resources with which to resist. The total death toll may get dramatically worse. Those nations with 2 and 3 day doubling times are mostly in Africa. Oh mercy. >> I don?t see you posting curses on Xi Jinping. Why is that? >?Because my Chinese paymasters wouldn't like it obviously? If we could be absolutely sure you don?t have actual Chinese paymasters, we would take that as satire. China did this to us, specifically President Xi, and John you posted comments defending Xi as late as March 17. He was the one who issued orders to keep it quiet, then threatened anyone who would warn the world in time to do something useful. Oh shameful was that deplorable act. Xi is to blame more than anyone anywhere at any time. His decisions and catastrophic actions have killed hundreds of thousands and devastated economies everywhere. >> Trump doesn?t make the call on that. >?Trump very strongly disagrees: When somebody is president of the United States, the authority is total If anything good comes of all this tragedy, it educates politicians that their power is limited, intentionally so. POTUS has been schooled on that, now governors have been reminded of that, and so on, all the way down. They can issue their orders, but at some point we, the people will do what we need to do in order to save our businesses and livelihood. The USA is a nation which was born in rebellion against tyranny. It is in our national DNA, it is in our constitution, it is the reason we are a special case country. We intentionally limit government power, for a reason: power corrupts. > May you escape all illness John. >?And you too Spike. John K Clark May we all. Let?s hope this data from China is accurate (I don?t believe it is (but I am hoping so with every fiber of my being.)) If it is true, in a couple of months we can expect the pandemic to tail off to nothing. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sat May 9 19:35:16 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 12:35:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] brittle systems In-Reply-To: <013701d625b5$873da240$95b8e6c0$@rainier66.com> References: <013701d625b5$873da240$95b8e6c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <112C0546-4480-49FC-8FDF-58F2C2C1B695@gmail.com> On May 8, 2020, at 10:05 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > We have long known the extended metropolis areas have grown dependent on brittle subsystems, such as mass transit in New York and Chicago. OK so we saw that system shattered. We recognize there are no good solutions to it: the city grew up on mass transit and needs it, even after it is clear that these systems make social distancing is impossible for the passengers. There?s no clear way to break the habit. > > The current emergency has pointed out other weak spots, such as nursing homes. I am now thinking we have other brittle systems we don?t even know about yet. Any ideas what will be the next one to be revealed? A complicated topic, but I believe two things make cities brittle in the US: city planning and zoning. There?s a long history of both and the latter was especially used to segregate along racial and class lines. Redlining is an example. These tend to make cities brittle by forcing allocation and growth into what?s preferred by whomever controls the planning and zoning apparatus. (And it?s a fool?s errand to believe this apparatus is either necessary or can be tamed to benefit all. They grew from and exist to serve an oligarchy.) Also, federal promotion of highways created strong incentives to adopt the car for transporting people and the truck for goods on regional and national level. By the way, there are some good discussion of these issues and what to do about them amongst market urbaniste. See, for instance: https://marketurbanism.com/ And also: https://marketurbanismreport.com/ Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat May 9 20:14:44 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 15:14:44 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <004201d62632$7f66c470$7e344d50$@rainier66.com> References: <003001d62600$22fd00f0$68f702d0$@rainier66.com> <008a01d62610$389c7c00$a9d57400$@rainier66.com> <004201d62632$7f66c470$7e344d50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The pandemic was not a failing of any politician or political philosophy other than China, spike Just one nit: The White House knew of the virus in January if I recall correctly, while millions of masks, ventilators and other equipment were sold to China. Hard to say who to blame, but clearly the White House is to blame. No? bill w On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 1:51 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better > > > > On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 10:45 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *It feels like you are trying to leverage a crisis into an opportunity.* > > > > >?I know it's not politically correct to say but I think if somebody can > profit from a tragedy, or turn a crisis into a opportunity, or turn a lemon > into lemonade, or in general find a way to extract a little good from > something very bad then that would be nothing to be ashamed of? > > > > If a tragedy is used to seize political power, that isn?t turning a > tragedy to an opportunity, it is turning it into a greater tragedy. It > causes increased distrust. John it worked in this case: people who read > your posts don?t trust your judgement or your cause. Some of us think it > is an elaborate false flag attack rather than the totalitarian manifesto it > appears to be. > > > > Plenty of us know what really happened here: this virus jumped from bats > to humans in Wuhan, China attempted to contain it while covering it up, > foreign nationals became infected, it got loose, spread across the globe, > governments were ineffective in stopping it, regardless of what they did or > didn?t do, hundreds of thousands have died and many more will. This is not > an opportunity to profit, it is a tragedy. > > > > Any political leader who uses this tragedy as an opportunity to seize > power is never to be trusted. Vote em out. > > > > >? in fact I'd say it would be a very Extropian thing to do, at least in > Max's original meaning of the word? > > > > I very much disagree. Using the Covid pandemic to promote any political > view is deplorable, even libertarianism, which is why I haven?t gone > there. Libertarianism, where it exists, didn?t stop this, no brand of > political thought seems to have made much difference in the long run. The > virus doesn?t know or care what political party is in charge. > > > > > > >> ?to be reminded of the grim reality that an American dies of this > virus about every 49 seconds, but with all Trump's grandiose talk? > > *> **The Federal government doesn?t have the final say on that. * > > > > >?If sure doesn't as long as Trump is running the show? > > > > Doubling down will not help. The pandemic was not a failing of any > politician or political philosophy other than China, but it certainly > pointed out some really obvious vulnerabilities not connected directly to > politics: we have built cities that are inherently vulnerable to this sort > of thing. We don?t even know what other vulnerabilities have quietly > evolved, but I suspect we have more of them. Persistently running a > federal-level deficit creates a situation where the Federal government > cannot respond effectively in an actual emergency. Deficits and borrowing > are for emergencies, not for standard operations. > > > > >? when something bad happens he will claim that's not his department and > blame governors or mayors or China? > > > > Not governors, not mayors, not his department, YES CHINA! Yes China damn > sure is to blame, you bet your ass they are at fault here, grievously so. > China kept this quiet, hoping to contain it, which put the entire planet at > risk. They influenced the World Health Organization to assure governments > all over Europe to keep their borders open too long. China is to blame for > that. > > > > No government has been able to contain this outbreak, not one. Some > delayed it a little, but none stopped it. China externalized risk to the > entire planet, and we are all paying the devastating price. Economies > everywhere will be crushed, regardless of what form of government they > have, every country, everywhere. > > > > The virus was late getting to Africa, but the overall crushing impact will > likely be worse there: they have fewer resources with which to resist. The > total death toll may get dramatically worse. Those nations with 2 and 3 > day doubling times are mostly in Africa. Oh mercy. > > > > > > >> *I don?t see you posting curses on Xi Jinping. Why is that?* > > > > >?Because my Chinese paymasters wouldn't like it obviously? > > > > If we could be absolutely sure you don?t have actual Chinese paymasters, > we would take that as satire. China did this to us, specifically President > Xi, and John you posted comments defending Xi as late as March 17. He was > the one who issued orders to keep it quiet, then threatened anyone who > would warn the world in time to do something useful. Oh shameful was that > deplorable act. Xi is to blame more than anyone anywhere at any time. His > decisions and catastrophic actions have killed hundreds of thousands and > devastated economies everywhere. > > > > *>> **Trump doesn?t make the call on that. * > > > > >?Trump very strongly disagrees: > > > > When somebody is president of the United States, the authority is total > > > > > If anything good comes of all this tragedy, it educates politicians that > their power is limited, intentionally so. POTUS has been schooled on that, > now governors have been reminded of that, and so on, all the way down. > They can issue their orders, but at some point we, the people will do what > we need to do in order to save our businesses and livelihood. > > > > The USA is a nation which was born in rebellion against tyranny. It is in > our national DNA, it is in our constitution, it is the reason we are a > special case country. We intentionally limit government power, for a > reason: power corrupts. > > > > > > *> **May you escape all illness John.* > > > > >?And you too Spike. John K Clark > > > > May we all. Let?s hope this data from China is accurate (I don?t believe > it is (but I am hoping so with every fiber of my being.)) If it is true, > in a couple of months we can expect the pandemic to tail off to nothing. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat May 9 20:22:57 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 16:22:57 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <00c401d62615$85898800$909c9800$@rainier66.com> References: <003001d62600$22fd00f0$68f702d0$@rainier66.com> <008a01d62610$389c7c00$a9d57400$@rainier66.com> <00c401d62615$85898800$909c9800$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 11:24 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> The countries which this thread title claims do it better: Haiti, has a > doubling time of 12 days, and India has a doubling time of 11 days: Do > explain please, what Haiti and India are doing better?* Only time can tell if either country ever reaches an infection rate equal to that of the USA, they have a long way to go, even if they get there they will have delayed the disease by at least 3 months and that's vitally important if a vaccine is near as Trump thinks and I really really hope. And Spike you haven't said how you feel about Human Challenge Trials, I think it's a good idea, a much better idea than injecting yourself with Clorox or stuffing 25,000 people into a basketball stadium so Trump can have another of his Nuremberg style rallies: *"in the not too distant future we'll have some massive rallies and people will be sitting next to each other. I can't imagine a rally where you have every fourth seat full, every six seats are empty for every one that you have full, that wouldn't look too good. No, I hope that we're going to be able to do some good old fashioned 25,000-person rallies where everyone's going wild because they love our country,"* we'll have some massive rallies and people will be sitting next to each other John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat May 9 20:48:40 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 13:48:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <003001d62600$22fd00f0$68f702d0$@rainier66.com> <008a01d62610$389c7c00$a9d57400$@rainier66.com> <004201d62632$7f66c470$7e344d50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006201d62643$38bc7ef0$aa357cd0$@rainier66.com> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better The pandemic was not a failing of any politician or political philosophy other than China, spike Just one nit: The White House knew of the virus in January if I recall correctly, while millions of masks, ventilators and other equipment were sold to China. Hard to say who to blame, but clearly the White House is to blame. No? bill w https://www.state.gov/the-united-states-announces-assistance-to-combat-the-novel-coronavirus/ I can understand why the US donated those supplies particularly to China: it is completely dependent on China to loan the money to cover normal operating expenses. The US must be very very good to China, to keep those loans coming. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat May 9 20:55:39 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 16:55:39 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <003001d62600$22fd00f0$68f702d0$@rainier66.com> <008a01d62610$389c7c00$a9d57400$@rainier66.com> <004201d62632$7f66c470$7e344d50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 4:25 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > Hard to say who to blame, but clearly the White House is to blame. No? Truman would say the buck stops with him, but Truman is long dead. John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat May 9 21:08:17 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 14:08:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <003001d62600$22fd00f0$68f702d0$@rainier66.com> <008a01d62610$389c7c00$a9d57400$@rainier66.com> <00c401d62615$85898800$909c9800$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007801d62645$f61d90e0$e258b2a0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat ubject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 11:24 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > The countries which this thread title claims do it better: Haiti, has a doubling time of 12 days, and India has a doubling time of 11 days: Do explain please, what Haiti and India are doing better? >?Only time can tell if either country ever reaches an infection rate equal to that of the USA, they have a long way to go? With a doubling rate of 11 days, it won?t take long at all. >?And Spike you haven't said how you feel about Human Challenge Trials? John K Clark It is scary stuff, but I am in favor of Human Challenge trials, assuming it is administered by doctors to fully-cognizant patients who know they might get a placebo and will be exposed. Strong young people have about a 1% chance of dying, but plenty of people enlist in the military with higher risk. There are enough people I think would volunteer for that, knowing full well it might be the end of the road. I would not favor stopping the trial, even though it is ethically shaky as hell. The person to ask is Rafal. I will take his word on that, being as he faces ethical dilemmas every day, whereas we engineers never do. Possible middle ground: hold just a little longer to see if the pattern China is claiming will be seen elsewhere. Italy was one of the early countries to catch it (they think in December) so we can see if their case load starts to drop. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sat May 9 21:10:45 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 16:10:45 -0500 Subject: [ExI] recorder ring In-Reply-To: <015001d625b9$46e8aec0$d4ba0c40$@rainier66.com> References: <015001d625b9$46e8aec0$d4ba0c40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, I don?t think that would help in most cases. If the location doesn?t match and/or the sound doesn?t match then it could be useful data. But the majority of rape accusations don?t involve these circumstances. The majority of rape accusations hinge on if a sexual act was consensual or not. How could this idea possibly help in these cases? SR Ballard > On May 8, 2020, at 11:21 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > Perhaps some data hipsters can educate me. > > We have a debate currently on what should be the standard of evidence when a student accuses another student of improprieties of any kind. It seems like men are inherently vulnerable to accusation which doesn?t need proof (because usually there isn?t any.) > > We could imagine some kind of device students could wear which would archive their location and record bits of sound, say a tenth of a second every second should be enough for what I have in mind. It is unlikely to be able to reconstruct a conversation from that, but it could establish innocence of an accused person by archiving a location and a background noise description (roughly.) > > This device would need to be something one wouldn?t take off when taking things off, such as a ring. It would need a Bluetooth transmitter to send digital files to a phone (which would add location info and archive.) > > If we could get enough students wearing these kinds of devices, it might lead us out of a deadlock where we don?t know how much weight to put on accusations. The accused could produce evidence. > > I don?t know what kind of data-storage capacity such a thing would require, if the phone could dump info to a desktop computer each day. Any hipsters on that here? > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sat May 9 21:12:03 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 16:12:03 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ai politicians In-Reply-To: References: <026c01d624f3$cdf2e9b0$69d8bd10$@rainier66.com> <028901d624f6$cf0a6cd0$6d1f4670$@rainier66.com> <715C2207-BE32-491F-BB32-F9358CC61281@gmail.com> Message-ID: It would probably be sufficient to say that I was willing to make a ?large? donation. SR Ballard > On May 8, 2020, at 6:19 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > They are only interested in money from their constituents. So you could write a letter requesting reasons why you should donate some of your lottery winnings (that will get their attention - you have big bucks) to the representative. OK, so you are lying. They probably tell more lies in a day than you do in three months. If might be fun! bill w > >> On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 4:18 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >> It seems odd, but makes sense in context. >> >> The one from the Pope?s secretary, one Paolo -BORGIA- I keep for sentimental reasons. >> >> Everything else is to answer the questions, ?Well, why don?t you just write your representatives? That?ll make things change.? >> >> I also keep a copy of the letter I sent them. Some of them are quite comically missing the point of my letters. I even have examples of letters I wrote back explaining why their response was useless. >> >> In this example I sent about 100 letters, and received less than 40 replies, with only 2 responces that -maybe- could be made by someone who actually read my letters. Or just better boilerplates. >> >> I did this experiment in 2018, so I might try again this year, and actually keep track of the response rate. >> >> Email was even worse. >> >> SR Ballard >> >>> On May 8, 2020, at 3:48 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> Why in the world would you want to save them? bill w >>> >>>> On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 1:32 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >>>> That?s what we already have. I have a binder of such letters. >>>> >>>> SR Ballard >>>> >>>>> On May 8, 2020, at 8:40 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Is that what we want from our politicians - boilerplate? bill w >>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 12:10 AM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat >>>>>> Subject: Re: [ExI] ai politicians >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Digital politician staff, perhaps. Do you think the politician actually composed those letters in the first place? Some of them might not have even read them. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I assumed they were done by low-level staffers. I am suggesting it could be completely automated. They probably already are for the most part. The staffer would skim the letter in a few seconds, pick up on the subject, then reply with the gun letter, the Covid letter, the abortion letter, that kind of thing. I don?t suppose real politicians above about a state representative reads letters from the proletatiat. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> spike >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat May 9 21:28:16 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 17:28:16 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <004201d62632$7f66c470$7e344d50$@rainier66.com> References: <003001d62600$22fd00f0$68f702d0$@rainier66.com> <008a01d62610$389c7c00$a9d57400$@rainier66.com> <004201d62632$7f66c470$7e344d50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 2:51 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> people who read your posts don?t trust your judgement or your cause. > Some of us think it is an elaborate false flag attack rather than the > totalitarian manifesto it appears to be.* > If some of you think that then some of you are not very bright. Trump supporters believe all sorts of looney things, 52% think Obama was born in Kenya, and nearly half, 46%, think Hillary Clinton ran a child sex slave ring out of the basement of a Washington D.C. pizza parlor, although I'm not sure if "think" is the right word. And the poll was taken AFTER a Trump zombie armed with a assault rifle burst into the restaurant and demanded to see the basement. The restaurant has no basement. More relevant to the current situation and much scarier, despite all scientific knowledge to the contrary 31% of Trump voters think vaccines cause autism. > *> Plenty of us know what really happened here: this virus jumped from > bats to humans in Wuhan, China attempted to contain it while covering it > up, foreign nationals became infected, it got loose, spread across the > globe,* > I don't know if it came from bats or not but other than that I have no particular problem with the above. > > *governments were ineffective in stopping it,* > And some governments were much more ineffective than others, and some acted like failed states and didn't even try to stop the virus for 2 months. There is a reason the USA has 4% of the world's population but 33% of the people sick with COVID-19, and that reason is Donald J Trump. > *>Using the Covid pandemic to promote any political view is deplorable, > even libertarianism, which is why I haven?t gone there.* > It sure sounds like you're going there. You keep talking about how there should be no overall coordination in this war against the virus and every state city town village and household should be 100% free to do their own thing. I might agree if the virus had read the US Constitution and had agreed to abide to it, but I don't believe that is the case. *> Persistently running a federal-level deficit creates a situation where > the Federal government cannot respond effectively in an actual emergency. * > Apparently you think this problem started in 1835, I think it may have been a tad later. > >> *I don?t see you posting curses on Xi Jinping. Why is that?* > > > >?Because my Chinese paymasters wouldn't like it obviously? > > > > > *> If we could be absolutely sure you don?t have actual Chinese > paymasters, we would take that as satire. * > Satire? What satire comrade? Must stop now, have sex ring business to attend to in basement of restaurant with Hillary. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat May 9 22:16:31 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 18:16:31 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response Message-ID: This is why I'm so upset with Donald Trump: Trump's Coronavirus Response John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat May 9 22:29:09 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 15:29:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <003001d62600$22fd00f0$68f702d0$@rainier66.com> <008a01d62610$389c7c00$a9d57400$@rainier66.com> <004201d62632$7f66c470$7e344d50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00b501d62651$423d04f0$c6b70ed0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 2:51 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > people who read your posts don?t trust your judgement or your cause. Some of us think it is an elaborate false flag attack rather than the totalitarian manifesto it appears to be. >?If some of you think that then some of you are not very bright? Doubling down on insults, slung far and wide. Do you still not know What Happened? > governments were ineffective in stopping it, >?And some governments were much more ineffective than others? I don?t see that in the numbers. They all tend to converge in their per capita case load. >? that reason is Donald J Trump? Doubling down on using death to promote your political views? Do you still not know What Happened. >Using the Covid pandemic to promote any political view is deplorable, even libertarianism, which is why I haven?t gone there. >?It sure sounds like you're going there? I made it clear: the virus doesn?t know or care who is in charge or not in charge. It crosses borders, all of them. No form of government has been able to stop it. >? I might agree if the virus had read the US Constitution and had agreed to abide to it, but I don't believe that is the case? You have expressed contempt for the constitution openly. Now it feels like you are hoping the virus can help overthrow it. I am betting on the constitution. Human rights are not set aside for a virus. I recommend you start a political party, the anti-constitutionalists. > Persistently running a federal-level deficit creates a situation where the Federal government cannot respond effectively in an actual emergency. >?Apparently you think this problem started in 1835, I think it may have been a tad later? John K Clark If we can borrow indefinitely, why are we paying taxes at all? Why not just borrow it all? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat May 9 22:40:22 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 18:40:22 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <00b501d62651$423d04f0$c6b70ed0$@rainier66.com> References: <003001d62600$22fd00f0$68f702d0$@rainier66.com> <008a01d62610$389c7c00$a9d57400$@rainier66.com> <004201d62632$7f66c470$7e344d50$@rainier66.com> <00b501d62651$423d04f0$c6b70ed0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 6:31 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *>>> **people who read your posts don?t trust your judgement or your >>> cause. Some of us think it is an elaborate false flag attack rather than >>> the totalitarian manifesto it appears to be.* >> >> > >> >?If some of you think that then some of you are not very bright? > > > > *> Doubling down on insults, slung far and wide. Do you still not know > What Happened?* > So claiming I am a Chinese agent running a false flag operation and don't really believe in anything I say is not an insult?! John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat May 9 22:45:09 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 15:45:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response This is why I'm so upset with Donald Trump: Trump's Coronavirus Response John K Clark Campaigning? Here? Why? John, I propose an experiment. Post to your friends offlist, people you trust, and ask them if they think you produced any anti-Trump sentiment. While there, ask if they think you produced any anti-telescope antipathy. Think about What Happened. If you wish to promote an idea or view, you need to be a bit more human. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat May 9 22:52:31 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 17:52:31 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response In-Reply-To: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> References: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, I am surprised. Yes, we need to placate the Chinese, but not at the time of a coming pandemic, which clearly could be anticipated while we were selling those supplies to China. I truly hope that you are not supporting Trump on any of his handling of this mess. If any other president committed and omitted crucial elements I would be just as critical. Party is irrelevant.bill w On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 5:49 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > *Subject:* [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response > > > > This is why I'm so upset with Donald Trump: > > > > Trump's Coronavirus Response > > > > John K Clark > > > > > > Campaigning? > > > > Here? > > > > Why? > > > > John, I propose an experiment. Post to your friends offlist, people you > trust, and ask them if they think you produced any anti-Trump sentiment. > While there, ask if they think you produced any anti-telescope antipathy. > > > > Think about What Happened. If you wish to promote an idea or view, you > need to be a bit more human. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat May 9 23:41:55 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 16:41:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response In-Reply-To: References: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <013a01d6265b$6cd44b60$467ce220$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response Spike, I am surprised. Yes, we need to placate the Chinese, but not at the time of a coming pandemic, which clearly could be anticipated while we were selling those supplies to China. I truly hope that you are not supporting Trump on any of his handling of this mess. If any other president committed and omitted crucial elements I would be just as critical. Party is irrelevant.bill w BillW, as I understand it, the supplies were donated as foreign aid, on 20 Feb 2020. This Mother Jones article from 29 March criticizes Trump with this headline: The US Sent Tons of Medical Supplies to China Even as Senators Warned of Virus Threat Here https://www.motherjones.com/coronavirus-updates/2020/03/the-us-sent-tons-of-medical-supplies-to-china-even-as-senators-warned-of-virus-threat-here/ Five days later, Mother Jones followed up with this headline: APRIL 3, 2020 Trump Wants to Cut Off Masks to Everyone But Us https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2020/04/trump-wants-to-cut-off-masks-to-everyone-but-us/ I am seeing a pattern. There is disagreement among those struggling to leverage a political advantage out of a tragedy. BillW, this really isn?t about parties, with that I fully agree. You are right on: party is irrelevant. What is clear is that anyone in the office of POTUS, anyone, will be criticized for whatever they do. It doesn?t even matter who is there or what they do. I would think Mother Jones (no relation) would pick one side or the other, rather than take both sides, which are contradictory. Another example: there is a split between those who clamor for POTUS to keep everything locked down (which he does not have the authority to do) and those who clamor for him to open everything back up (which he does not have the authority to do.) POTUS has the authority to close borders and restrict international travel, which is still highly advisable in my view because aircraft and ocean liners are inherently dangerous for spreading viruses. Governors make the call on what stays closed, and even then, the governor is dependent on counties and cities to enforce the orders. The entire question sets up inherent tension between those who are still getting their paychecks and those who are not. Both are criticizing the guy who does not have the authority to either open the economy or keep it closed. Regarding defending Trump: that isn?t what I am doing. In the exactly one area I consider the very most important thing, the one area critical as all hell, I cannot tell a trace of difference between the two guys we will be voting for in November, nor can I tell any difference between the two mainstream parties. All the usual clamor over all the usual stuff, the guns, abortion, all of it is sound and fury, signifying nothing. We already know none of that stuff is going to change. It hasn?t changed in decades. To me, what really really matters is what the hell we are going to do if the lenders suddenly stop lending. We hear people say the lenders will never stop lending, well I don?t believe that. Or that we can just print more money, I don?t believe that either. Or we can just default on all government debts, I don?t believe that either. Or don?t worry about it, we can run deficits as high as we want because it will never be a crisis, since it has never been before since 1835, weeellll, I don?t believe that. If any of these simplistic solutions are viable, then we should be doing them now, rather than extracting taxes from the citizens or waiting for a still bigger crisis. I don?t think any of these ideas are viable. At some point we must face up to the bills we have run up. Omar commented that deficit spending should only be used in times of crisis, I do believe that with all my heart. Our collective and persistent failure on budgets will have consequences, severe ones. The current Covid crisis may bring that day of reckoning right to us, and it doesn?t matter which politician or party is in charge then. To me, the runaway debt is the only thing that really matters. I don?t hear Trump, or Biden or any one of those seeking that office talking about it at all. So to me, who wins in November is nearly irrelevant: neither candidate has any idea what to do about that debt, and it is unclear to me which one will be worse. I can?t even tell them apart on that. Can you? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun May 10 01:31:08 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 20:31:08 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response In-Reply-To: <013a01d6265b$6cd44b60$467ce220$@rainier66.com> References: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> <013a01d6265b$6cd44b60$467ce220$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: If there's not much to choose between Trump and whoever, then I have to go with whoever,just on the basis of personality: mean (in the sense of small and petty as well as the usual meaning), narcissistic, power mad, dismissive of science (or just about anything else), pussy grabber (self-described), and a lot more, all bad or even worse. Not a person to present to the world as our leader. An embarrassment to say the very least. Just a disgusting human being. And we need balance in federal and Supreme Court justices. (Hang on Ginsburg! A Democrat is on the way! Cross my fingers, toes, etc.) As for the debt, I have been raving about it, not in this group, for many years. A few years I gave it up. Was I satisfied that people who know money are OK with it? Sorta. Do I see any end to it? No. Not in my lifetime. And you are getting to the point of raving about it, bringing it into any conversation. Are you preaching to the choir? Very likely. Almost certainly, with a few exceptions. bill w On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 6:44 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response > > > > Spike, I am surprised. Yes, we need to placate the Chinese, but not at > the time of a coming pandemic, which clearly could be anticipated while we > were selling those supplies to China. I truly hope that you are not > supporting Trump on any of his handling of this mess. If any other > president committed and omitted crucial elements I would be just as > critical. Party is irrelevant.bill w > > > > > > > > > > BillW, as I understand it, the supplies were donated as foreign aid, on 20 > Feb 2020. > > > > This Mother Jones article from 29 March criticizes Trump with this > headline: > > > > *The US Sent Tons of Medical Supplies to China Even as Senators Warned of > Virus Threat Here* > > > > > https://www.motherjones.com/coronavirus-updates/2020/03/the-us-sent-tons-of-medical-supplies-to-china-even-as-senators-warned-of-virus-threat-here/ > > > > > > Five days later, Mother Jones followed up with this headline: > > > > APRIL 3, 2020 > > *Trump Wants to Cut Off Masks to Everyone But Us* > > > > > https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2020/04/trump-wants-to-cut-off-masks-to-everyone-but-us/ > > > > > > I am seeing a pattern. There is disagreement among those struggling to > leverage a political advantage out of a tragedy. BillW, this really isn?t > about parties, with that I fully agree. You are right on: party is > irrelevant. What is clear is that anyone in the office of POTUS, anyone, > will be criticized for whatever they do. It doesn?t even matter who is > there or what they do. > > > > I would think Mother Jones (no relation) would pick one side or the other, > rather than take both sides, which are contradictory. > > > > Another example: there is a split between those who clamor for POTUS to > keep everything locked down (which he does not have the authority to do) > and those who clamor for him to open everything back up (which he does not > have the authority to do.) POTUS has the authority to close borders and > restrict international travel, which is still highly advisable in my view > because aircraft and ocean liners are inherently dangerous for spreading > viruses. Governors make the call on what stays closed, and even then, the > governor is dependent on counties and cities to enforce the orders. > > > > The entire question sets up inherent tension between those who are still > getting their paychecks and those who are not. Both are criticizing the > guy who does not have the authority to either open the economy or keep it > closed. > > > > Regarding defending Trump: that isn?t what I am doing. In the exactly one > area I consider the very most important thing, the one area critical as all > hell, I cannot tell a trace of difference between the two guys we will be > voting for in November, nor can I tell any difference between the two > mainstream parties. All the usual clamor over all the usual stuff, the > guns, abortion, all of it is sound and fury, signifying nothing. We > already know none of that stuff is going to change. It hasn?t changed in > decades. > > > > To me, what really really matters is what the hell we are going to do if > the lenders suddenly stop lending. We hear people say the lenders will > never stop lending, well I don?t believe that. Or that we can just print > more money, I don?t believe that either. Or we can just default on all > government debts, I don?t believe that either. Or don?t worry about it, we > can run deficits as high as we want because it will never be a crisis, > since it has never been before since 1835, weeellll, I don?t believe that. > If any of these simplistic solutions are viable, then we should be doing > them now, rather than extracting taxes from the citizens or waiting for a > still bigger crisis. I don?t think any of these ideas are viable. At some > point we must face up to the bills we have run up. > > > > Omar commented that deficit spending should only be used in times of > crisis, I do believe that with all my heart. Our collective and persistent > failure on budgets will have consequences, severe ones. The current Covid > crisis may bring that day of reckoning right to us, and it doesn?t matter > which politician or party is in charge then. > > > > To me, the runaway debt is the only thing that really matters. I don?t > hear Trump, or Biden or any one of those seeking that office talking about > it at all. So to me, who wins in November is nearly irrelevant: neither > candidate has any idea what to do about that debt, and it is unclear to me > which one will be worse. I can?t even tell them apart on that. Can you? > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun May 10 01:42:24 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 20:42:24 -0500 Subject: [ExI] olive oil Message-ID: Re-reading Samin Nosrat's wonderful cookbook, I see that extra virgin olive oil goes rancid in 12 to 14 months. What!!?? So I'll bet that most of us have a big container of it, rancid as hell. So I am going to buy small bottles of the best stuff and quit trying to save money. Truly out of sight factoid: most people like their olive oil rancid. They, and previously I, don't know to check the date of pressing and keep track of how long you've had it. I am going to buy Colavita and be done with it. Bill W -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sun May 10 03:04:59 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 22:04:59 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response In-Reply-To: References: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> <013a01d6265b$6cd44b60$467ce220$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <73820E71-BC20-43EA-AB7E-AA92C891B9D1@gmail.com> > US Debt I don?t know if I see US debt as my main concern, but it definitely is a concern for me. I just can?t think of any solution that people can use (that is politically viable), so I tend to ignore it. I could feel much more comfortable with a ?zero sum? or positive budget. Or if we were at least making above-minimum payments. But taxes are notoriously unpopular. The only way to raise them, it seems, is to bait and switch. > Mother Jones I wouldn?t characterize the Magazine as a rag, but it is a good indicator of ?Left? thought in the US, which is composed of many different, competing streams of thought. The US ?Left? isn?t and can?t be unified when it contains Socialists, Communists, Left-libertatians, Anarchists, Social Democrats, among others. SR Ballard From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sun May 10 03:06:24 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 22:06:24 -0500 Subject: [ExI] olive oil In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: How does a bottle last you so long? I go through nearly 5 gallons of cooking oil per year... SR Ballard > On May 9, 2020, at 8:42 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Re-reading Samin Nosrat's wonderful cookbook, I see that extra virgin olive oil goes rancid in 12 to 14 months. What!!?? So I'll bet that most of us have a big container of it, rancid as hell. > > So I am going to buy small bottles of the best stuff and quit trying to save money. > > Truly out of sight factoid: most people like their olive oil rancid. They, and previously I, don't know to check the date of pressing and keep track of how long you've had it. > > I am going to buy Colavita and be done with it. > > Bill W > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sun May 10 03:33:59 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 23:33:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] olive oil In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ya that's what I was going to say as well. We use a lot in my home and that's just 2 people On Sat, May 9, 2020, 23:13 SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > How does a bottle last you so long? I go through nearly 5 gallons of > cooking oil per year... > > SR Ballard > > On May 9, 2020, at 8:42 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Re-reading Samin Nosrat's wonderful cookbook, I see that extra virgin > olive oil goes rancid in 12 to 14 months. What!!?? So I'll bet that most > of us have a big container of it, rancid as hell. > > So I am going to buy small bottles of the best stuff and quit trying to > save money. > > Truly out of sight factoid: most people like their olive oil rancid. > They, and previously I, don't know to check the date of pressing and keep > track of how long you've had it. > > I am going to buy Colavita and be done with it. > > Bill W > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun May 10 11:23:05 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 07:23:05 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response In-Reply-To: <013a01d6265b$6cd44b60$467ce220$@rainier66.com> References: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> <013a01d6265b$6cd44b60$467ce220$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 7:44 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > T*o me, the runaway debt is the only thing that really matters.* I know and that's exactly the problem, you think the debt is the only thing that really matters. You ask why I keep updating the death numbers, well that's why, I don't think these people should be forgotten. And as of May 10 at 10:54 GMT 80,040 Americans have died of COVID-19 since March 1. Remember just a few days ago when the virus reached 58,209 dead Americans and beat the death toll from the Vietnam War? It seemed horrible at the time but compared to now it's like the good old days. But enough of such trivialities let's talk about something really important, the national debt. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun May 10 12:01:57 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 08:01:57 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response In-Reply-To: References: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> <013a01d6265b$6cd44b60$467ce220$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 9:34 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > If there's not much to choose between Trump and whoever, then I have to > go with whoever,just on the basis of personality: mean (in the sense of > small and petty as well as the usual meaning), narcissistic, power mad, > dismissive of science (or just about anything else), pussy grabber > (self-described), and a lot more, all bad or even worse. Not a person to > present to the world as our leader. An embarrassment to say the very > least. Just a disgusting human being. > I could not agree more. And I had thought it was just pure incompetence that caused the US to start widespread testing much later than every other advanced technological nation in the world and even later than many third world countries, but there may be more to it than just that. Yesterday Trump said: *"In a way by doing all this testing we make our country look bad. We're going to have more cases."* So if you don't know about a danger it can't hurt you. Talk about anti-science! The problem is you just can't hide from reality, eventually it will always find you and bite you in the ass. And you will never find a bigger ass than Donald Trump, but Douglas Adams Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy gave me an idea for the perfect Christmas gift for the man: "*Joo Janta 200 Super-Chromatic Peril Sensitive Sunglasses have been specially designed to help people develop a relaxed attitude to danger. At the first hint of trouble, they turn totally black and thus prevent you from seeing anything that might alarm you.*? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun May 10 12:28:28 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 08:28:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response In-Reply-To: <73820E71-BC20-43EA-AB7E-AA92C891B9D1@gmail.com> References: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> <013a01d6265b$6cd44b60$467ce220$@rainier66.com> <73820E71-BC20-43EA-AB7E-AA92C891B9D1@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 11:08 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *I could feel much more comfortable with a ?zero sum? or positive budget.* Why? In the last 2 centuries we have dramatically improved our wealth generating machinery, aka our productivity, so as long as the borrowing is not larger than the rate of wealth generation improvement it would make perfect economic sense to borrow a hard to make dollar today if I can pay it back with a easy to make dollar tomorrow. And that's why, except for the Clinton years, the USA has been running a budget deficit every single year since 1835. And in the entire history of the nation you will not find a time less appropriate to worry about the budget deficit than right now! John K Clark > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun May 10 12:46:25 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 05:46:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response In-Reply-To: References: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> <013a01d6265b$6cd44b60$467ce220$@rainier66.com> <73820E71-BC20-43EA-AB7E-AA92C891B9D1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002601d626c9$0472c240$0d5846c0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 11:08 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat > wrote: > I could feel much more comfortable with a ?zero sum? or positive budget. >?Why? In the last 2 centuries we have dramatically improved our wealth generating machinery, aka our productivity, so as long as the borrowing is not larger than the rate of wealth generation improvement it would make perfect economic sense to borrow ? John K Clark OK, what if productivity unexpectedly drops for some reason? Does that mean we pay back by that percentage? How? And what if expenses simultaneously rise unexpectedly, do we pay for that by? how? A Ponzi scheme is a great investment until it suddenly isn?t anymore. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun May 10 13:06:54 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 09:06:54 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response In-Reply-To: <002601d626c9$0472c240$0d5846c0$@rainier66.com> References: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> <013a01d6265b$6cd44b60$467ce220$@rainier66.com> <73820E71-BC20-43EA-AB7E-AA92C891B9D1@gmail.com> <002601d626c9$0472c240$0d5846c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 8:48 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *OK, what if productivity unexpectedly drops for some reason? * Then that would be bad. No polacy can protect you from every possible bad thing, much less every hypothetical bad thing, all we can do is play the odds use our brains and do the best we can. > *A Ponzi scheme is a great investment until it suddenly isn?t anymore.* If you can find a Ponzi scheme that has made investors richer since 1835 then please let me know and I'll grab my checkbook! John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun May 10 13:28:56 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 06:28:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response In-Reply-To: References: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> <013a01d6265b$6cd44b60$467ce220$@rainier66.com> <73820E71-BC20-43EA-AB7E-AA92C891B9D1@gmail.com> <002601d626c9$0472c240$0d5846c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003d01d626ce$f4e62410$deb26c30$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 8:48 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: OK, what if productivity unexpectedly drops for some reason? >?Then that would be bad? Future tense? Would be? We are living that unexpected drop right now. But no worries, we can blame the guy who cannot help us, and promote a different guy who cannot help us, ja? >?No polacy can protect you from every possible bad thing? True. Some ?polacies? can make us vulnerable to every bad thing. The policy of government gobbling up every loan every lender is willing to make is an example. >?much less every hypothetical bad thing? Ja, the hypothesis is playing out real time right now. >?all we can do is play the odds? OK we did that. Here we are. Too bad for us. >?use our brains and do the best we can? We are in a very uncomfortable situation, not just USA but everywhere: governments and citizens must make a decision to stay locked down to protect their people from disease or open their businesses to protect their people from massive simultaneous bankruptcy. I don?t know how it works outside of USA, but I suspect it is a universal rule: nations cannot shut down their economies very long. No nation can survive that. It doesn?t matter what form of government or what social safety nets they have, those aren?t designed to carry a high percentage of their population. They won?t hold. We don?t know what will happen if we re-open economies (this week) and there is an enormous surge in C-19 cases. But we do know that the government, state and local, are reaching the tail end of their ability to influence the citizens to stay on lockdown. I can imagine something similar in other countries everywhere. No nation can avoid chaos for long under these conditions. > A Ponzi scheme is a great investment until it suddenly isn?t anymore. >?If you can find a Ponzi scheme that has made investors richer since 1835 then please let me know and I'll grab my checkbook! John K Clark By all means, grab up all the US government bonds you can get your hands on. They are paying 2% and they are as secure as they were 6 months ago. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun May 10 14:04:24 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 10:04:24 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response In-Reply-To: <003d01d626ce$f4e62410$deb26c30$@rainier66.com> References: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> <013a01d6265b$6cd44b60$467ce220$@rainier66.com> <73820E71-BC20-43EA-AB7E-AA92C891B9D1@gmail.com> <002601d626c9$0472c240$0d5846c0$@rainier66.com> <003d01d626ce$f4e62410$deb26c30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 9:31 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *I don?t know how it works outside of USA* Then I'll tell you. The South Korean economy shrank by 1.4% in the first quarter of this year. The US economy shrank by 4.8% in the first quarter of this year. Both South Korea and the US reported their first case of COVID-19 on January 20. Within 2 days South Korea had developed an excellent test for the virus and was using it extensively. The US has not done as well even after 3 months. As of today at 13:40 GMT South Korea has 10,874 people sick with the virus. The US has 1,348,315 sick with the virus. As of today at 13:40 GMT South Korea has 256 deaths from the virus. As of today at 13:40 GMT the US has 80,068 deaths from the virus. One country had a coherent coordinated plan to deal with this emergency and one country did not. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun May 10 14:08:00 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 09:08:00 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response In-Reply-To: <73820E71-BC20-43EA-AB7E-AA92C891B9D1@gmail.com> References: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> <013a01d6265b$6cd44b60$467ce220$@rainier66.com> <73820E71-BC20-43EA-AB7E-AA92C891B9D1@gmail.com> Message-ID: The US ?Left? isn?t and can?t be unified when it contains Socialists, Communists, Left-libertatians, Anarchists, Social Democrats, among others. SR Ballard *Yes, and the same thing can be said of the right, which is why saying 'liberal' or 'conservative' doesn't mean just a whole lot. bill w* On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 10:07 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > US Debt > > I don?t know if I see US debt as my main concern, but it definitely is a > concern for me. I just can?t think of any solution that people can use > (that is politically viable), so I tend to ignore it. > > I could feel much more comfortable with a ?zero sum? or positive budget. > Or if we were at least making above-minimum payments. > > But taxes are notoriously unpopular. The only way to raise them, it seems, > is to bait and switch. > > > Mother Jones > > I wouldn?t characterize the Magazine as a rag, but it is a good indicator > of ?Left? thought in the US, which is composed of many different, competing > streams of thought. The US ?Left? isn?t and can?t be unified when it > contains Socialists, Communists, Left-libertatians, Anarchists, Social > Democrats, among others. > > SR Ballard > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun May 10 14:15:47 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 09:15:47 -0500 Subject: [ExI] types of conservatives Message-ID: from Wikipedia - 1.1Liberal conservatism - 1.2Conservative liberalism - 1.3Libertarian conservatism - 1.4Fiscal conservatism - 1.5National and traditional conservatism - 1.6Cultural and social conservatism - 1.7Defending inequality - 1.8Religious conservatism - 1.9Paternalistic conservatism - 1.10Authoritarian conservatism bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sun May 10 14:20:11 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 09:20:11 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response In-Reply-To: References: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> <013a01d6265b$6cd44b60$467ce220$@rainier66.com> <73820E71-BC20-43EA-AB7E-AA92C891B9D1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4D183798-BFA8-4E59-BD44-50A48E84539D@gmail.com> ?If? is why. SR Ballard > On May 10, 2020, at 7:28 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > > > >> On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 11:08 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> > I could feel much more comfortable with a ?zero sum? or positive budget. > > Why? In the last 2 centuries we have dramatically improved our wealth generating machinery, aka our productivity, so as long as the borrowing is not larger than the rate of wealth generation improvement it would make perfect economic sense to borrow a hard to make dollar today if I can pay it back with a easy to make dollar tomorrow. And that's why, except for the Clinton years, the USA has been running a budget deficit every single year since 1835. And in the entire history of the nation you will not find a time less appropriate to worry about the budget deficit than right now! > > John K Clark >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun May 10 14:30:08 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 10:30:08 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response In-Reply-To: References: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> <013a01d6265b$6cd44b60$467ce220$@rainier66.com> <73820E71-BC20-43EA-AB7E-AA92C891B9D1@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 10:15 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > saying 'liberal' or 'conservative' doesn't mean just a whole lot. bill w > Yes, being conservative is supposed to mean you want to keep doing things the way we are doing it now, so why is wanting to make abortion illegal considered a conservative position? Abortion has been legal in every state in the country since 1973 and in some states longer than that. And what does anti abortion and pro guns have in common, why are they both conservative, couldn't you be for one and against the other ? John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun May 10 14:32:22 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 09:32:22 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response In-Reply-To: <4D183798-BFA8-4E59-BD44-50A48E84539D@gmail.com> References: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> <013a01d6265b$6cd44b60$467ce220$@rainier66.com> <73820E71-BC20-43EA-AB7E-AA92C891B9D1@gmail.com> <4D183798-BFA8-4E59-BD44-50A48E84539D@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 9:26 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > ?If? is why. > > SR Ballard > Sorry - only had two cups of coffee so far. Brain fog. What do you mean by 'if'? bill w > > On May 10, 2020, at 7:28 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 11:08 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *I could feel much more comfortable with a ?zero sum? or positive >> budget.* > > > Why? In the last 2 centuries we have dramatically improved our wealth > generating machinery, aka our productivity, so as long as the borrowing is > not larger than the rate of wealth generation improvement it would make > perfect economic sense to borrow a hard to make dollar today if I can pay > it back with a easy to make dollar tomorrow. And that's why, except for > the Clinton years, the USA has been running a budget deficit every single > year since 1835. And in the entire history of the nation you will not find > a time less appropriate to worry about the budget deficit than right now! > > John K Clark > >> >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun May 10 14:34:03 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 09:34:03 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response In-Reply-To: References: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> <013a01d6265b$6cd44b60$467ce220$@rainier66.com> <73820E71-BC20-43EA-AB7E-AA92C891B9D1@gmail.com> Message-ID: And what does anti abortion and pro guns have in common, why are they both conservative, couldn't you be for one and against the other ? John K Clark Of course you can, and that's why there are different categories. bill w On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 9:32 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 10:15 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > saying 'liberal' or 'conservative' doesn't mean just a whole lot. bill >> w >> > > Yes, being conservative is supposed to mean you want to keep doing things > the way we are doing it now, so why is wanting to make abortion illegal > considered a conservative position? Abortion has been legal in every state > in the country since 1973 and in some states longer than that. And what > does anti abortion and pro guns have in common, why are they both > conservative, couldn't you be for one and against the other ? > > John K Clark > > > >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun May 10 14:39:28 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 09:39:28 -0500 Subject: [ExI] quotes of the day Message-ID: "The most important thing in a relationship between a man and a woman is that one of them is good at taking orders." That is basically what killed my third marriage. She could only give, not take, and I am antiauthoritarian. "The greatest love is a mother's, then a dog's, then a sweetheart's." Polish proverb bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sun May 10 14:46:14 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 09:46:14 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response In-Reply-To: References: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> <013a01d6265b$6cd44b60$467ce220$@rainier66.com> <73820E71-BC20-43EA-AB7E-AA92C891B9D1@gmail.com> <4D183798-BFA8-4E59-BD44-50A48E84539D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sent from my iPhone > On May 10, 2020, at 9:32 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > > >> On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 9:26 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >> ?If? is why. >> >> SR Ballard > > Sorry - only had two cups of coffee so far. Brain fog. What do you mean by 'if'? > > bill w >> >Why? In the last 2 centuries we have dramatically improved our wealth generating machinery, aka our productivity, so as long as the borrowing is not larger than the rate of wealth generation improvement it would make perfect economic sense to borrow a hard to make dollar today if I can pay it back with a easy to make dollar tomorrow. And that's why, except for the Clinton years, the USA has been running a budget deficit every single year since 1835. And in the entire history of the nation you will not find a time less appropriate to worry about the budget deficit than right now! John K Clark >>> On May 10, 2020, at 7:28 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 11:08 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >>>> >>>> > I could feel much more comfortable with a ?zero sum? or positive budget. >>> >>> Why? In the last 2 centuries we have dramatically improved our wealth generating machinery, aka our productivity, so as long as the borrowing is not larger than the rate of wealth generation improvement it would make perfect economic sense to borrow a hard to make dollar today if I can pay it back with a easy to make dollar tomorrow. And that's why, except for the Clinton years, the USA has been running a budget deficit every single year since 1835. And in the entire history of the nation you will not find a time less appropriate to worry about the budget deficit than right now! >>> >>> John K Clark >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun May 10 14:52:31 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 07:52:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response In-Reply-To: References: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> <013a01d6265b$6cd44b60$467ce220$@rainier66.com> <73820E71-BC20-43EA-AB7E-AA92C891B9D1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00a701d626da$a24d28a0$e6e779e0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 10:15 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: > saying 'liberal' or 'conservative' doesn't mean just a whole lot. bill w >?Yes, being conservative is supposed to mean you want to keep doing things the way we are doing it now? By that definition, I am anything but conservative. Our current course is catastrophic in my view. >?so why is wanting to make abortion illegal considered a conservative position? ? John K Clark I am section 1.4 on BillW?s list, fiscal conservative. People can have aaaaalll the abortions and aaaaallll the guns they want, every brand of abortion and every brand of guns, no bother from me. But we can?t keep borrowing against the future, because I lack full confidence in the future?s ability to carry that debt. If I were the banker, I would reject that loan application. The future might be suddenly upon with the virus: if it gets worse instead of better, and South Korea realizes it cannot keep doing what it is doing either, causing a huge outbreak there as well as everywhere else, the dilemma gets far worse than it is now. If we believe China?s numbers however, this will all go away soon. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun May 10 15:12:22 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 11:12:22 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response In-Reply-To: References: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> <013a01d6265b$6cd44b60$467ce220$@rainier66.com> <73820E71-BC20-43EA-AB7E-AA92C891B9D1@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 10:49 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>And what does anti abortion and pro guns have in common, why are they >> both conservative, couldn't you be for one and against the other ? >> John K Clark > > > *> Of course you can, and that's why there are different categories. bill > w* > If there are as many categories of "conservative" as you say and you need that many words to modify the adjective to give it meaning then the word has lost most of its usefulness; "I am conservative" contains very little information as Shannon defines "information" because you will have learned very little new about the person who spoke the words. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun May 10 16:22:07 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 11:22:07 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response In-Reply-To: References: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> <013a01d6265b$6cd44b60$467ce220$@rainier66.com> <73820E71-BC20-43EA-AB7E-AA92C891B9D1@gmail.com> Message-ID: If you would read that section of Wikipedia, you would find that in some places the meanings are reversed or different, or or or. It seems like political opinions come in so many categories that they rival the Baptists, who split off into a different church every other Sunday. Yeah, I think we can still use the terms. I have reminded the group several times that I am different from the crazies in Ivy League colleges who don't seem to understand the first amendment, or other parts of the Bill of Rights. I am a liberal libertarian but that still does not really explain all I believe in. And I am so ignorant of economics that I don't know where I stand there, except a totally free market lets too many companies make shoddy and dangerous goods. 'Regulation' is a good word to me, though it does seem that many agencies drown people in paperwork, which I wonder if anyone reads anyway. bill w On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 10:17 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 10:49 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >>And what does anti abortion and pro guns have in common, why are they >>> both conservative, couldn't you be for one and against the other ? >>> John K Clark >> >> >> *> Of course you can, and that's why there are different categories. >> bill w* >> > > If there are as many categories of "conservative" as you say and you need > that many words to modify the adjective to give it meaning then the word > has lost most of its usefulness; "I am conservative" contains very little > information as Shannon defines "information" because you will have learned > very little new about the person who spoke the words. > > John K Clark > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sun May 10 16:31:42 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 11:31:42 -0500 Subject: [ExI] quotes of the day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <65376657-2030-427B-BF83-64362032D235@gmail.com> Not to be mean, but how did y?all end up married with such an obvious mis-match? My mom?s first marriage and my aunt?s first four are exactly the same issue. SR Ballard > On May 10, 2020, at 9:39 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > "The most important thing in a relationship between a man and a woman is that one of them is good at taking orders." > > That is basically what killed my third marriage. She could only give, not take, and I am antiauthoritarian. > > "The greatest love is a mother's, then a dog's, then a sweetheart's." Polish proverb > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Sun May 10 21:18:32 2020 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 21:18:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] Fw: A preferred direction to the universe? In-Reply-To: <1468873469.397314.1589144795783@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1468873469.397314.1589144795783@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <897305428.411065.1589145512335@mail.yahoo.com> On Tuesday, April 28, 2020, 06:58:07 AM PDT, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote:? >The universe may have a preferred direction. A new study has found a spatial variation in the Fine Structure Constant (a pure number approximately equal to 1/137) with a 3.9 sigma level of confidence, that means there is a 0.8% chance it's just a statistical fluke. It's not good enough to claim a discovery, that requires 5 sigma or only 0.023% chance of it being bogus, but it's good enough to be interesting. The detected variation has a dipole structure, the laws of physics that govern electromagnetism seem to get stronger in one direction, and the further we look the stronger it gets, and it gets weaker when we look in the oposite direction, with no change in the perpendicular direction. In other words it has a dipole shape. >If this turns out to be true then Noether's theorem tells us that the Law Of conservation Of Angular Momentum is only approximately?true. Four direct measurements of the fine-structure constant 13 billion years ago This new optical work is consistent with a different study from a few weeks ago that used ?X rays instead of optical light, they also found a variation and along the same axis. Rethinking cosmology: Universe expansion may not be uniform ---------------------------------------- I seem to remember predicting that? our? universe was non-isotropic with my causal cell argument a couple of years ago. If our Hubble volume is inside a black or white hole, then it can be thought of as having particle-like properties such as mass, spin, and charge from the outside. If our Hubble volume had any angular momentum at all relative to other causal cells, then it could lead to discrepancies in Noether's theorem, since there would always be a net angular momentum left over that is never cancelled by symmetry: the spin of the universe along a spin axis as it were. This also supports my notion that vacuum energies are not a "cosmological constant" but a function of time. If the expansion rate of the universe is not uniform, that suggests the cosmological constant is not uniform. So I wonder if the spatial variation of the fine-structure number is large enough to influence the evolution of intelligent life? Might it serve to narrow the anthropic principle to a more localized space-time? If so, this spatial variation of the EM field could explain the Great Silence and give our universe a "Goldilocks zone". Stuart LaForge From spike at rainier66.com Sun May 10 21:35:47 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 14:35:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Fw: A preferred direction to the universe? In-Reply-To: <897305428.411065.1589145512335@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1468873469.397314.1589144795783@mail.yahoo.com> <897305428.411065.1589145512335@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002901d62712$f83c3c00$e8b4b400$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of The Avantguardian via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Fw: A preferred direction to the universe? ---------------------------------------- >...I seem to remember predicting that our universe was non-isotropic with my causal cell argument a couple of years ago... If it is non-isotropic, so many of our most basic assumptions are incorrect, or rather they are very close approximations. The ugliness in the equations is too revolting to consider. ... >...So I wonder if the spatial variation of the fine-structure number is large enough to influence the evolution of intelligent life? Might it serve to narrow the anthropic principle to a more localized space-time? If so, this spatial variation of the EM field could explain the Great Silence and give our universe a "Goldilocks zone". Stuart LaForge _______________________________________________ Ja it sure would. It could mean our Goldilocks zone is temporary, perhaps only a few tens of billions years. Do let us hope it is not true, but if it is true, let us hope it will not become generally known. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun May 10 22:46:58 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 17:46:58 -0500 Subject: [ExI] block calls Message-ID: A cousin of mine lost her ability to drive and is now in a retirement home. Husband OK. But they took away her phone because she got calls from scammers and she just cannot process the idea that they are trying to rob her. She believes all of them. So - is there any way at all for her to have a phone app that blocks suspicious calls? Taking away a car is bad enough. All old people bemoan the loss of the ability to get around the world and do things for themselves. Taking away the phone is just another terrible thing for her. I'll await answers. I think I know one way: put the accepted list of numbers in the phone and block all others. Can't they do that? Is that a possibility? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun May 10 22:56:19 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 15:56:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] block calls In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002c01d6271e$382ca380$a885ea80$@rainier66.com> From: William Flynn Wallace Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 3:47 PM To: spike ; ExI chat list Subject: block calls >?A cousin of mine lost her ability to drive and is now in a retirement home. ? Taking away the phone is just another terrible thing for her. >?I'll await answers. I think I know one way: put the accepted list of numbers in the phone and block all others. Can't they do that? Is that a possibility? >?bill w Sure can BillW. A lotta times that?s the way to do phones for kids. They can call anyone they want, but only their friends and family can call them. We use that for my son. It isn?t tricky at all. I recommend you post forward to your cousin?s husband and suggest it forthwith. Have the guy at the shop set it up. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun May 10 23:02:00 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 16:02:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] block calls In-Reply-To: <002c01d6271e$382ca380$a885ea80$@rainier66.com> References: <002c01d6271e$382ca380$a885ea80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004001d6271f$035b1aa0$0a114fe0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Subject: RE: block calls From: William Flynn Wallace > Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 3:47 PM To: spike >; ExI chat list > Subject: block calls >?A cousin of mine lost her ability? Taking away the phone is just another terrible thing for her. >?I'll await answers. I think I know one way: put the accepted list of numbers in the phone and block all others. Can't they do that? Is that a possibility? >?bill w >?Sure can BillW. A lotta times that?s the way to do phones for kids. They can call anyone they want, but only their friends and family can call them. We use that for my son. >?It isn?t tricky at all. I recommend you post forward to your cousin?s husband and suggest it forthwith. Have the guy at the shop set it up. spike Cool BillW, you gave me an idea. We rig your cousin?s phone to block scammers, but to log their numbers. We get a sacrificial phone number that can only call out. Then we write software to use that number to randomly dial the scammers with scam calls at all hours. We have an actor who can voice-mimic a confused geezer, tell them you want to buy it (whatever it is they are selling) then give them a phony credit card number we can trace, then see who hits on it. BillW, you are a GENIUS me lad! Good thinking. We can have some fun here. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun May 10 23:07:09 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 18:07:09 -0500 Subject: [ExI] block calls In-Reply-To: <002c01d6271e$382ca380$a885ea80$@rainier66.com> References: <002c01d6271e$382ca380$a885ea80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Have the guy at the shop set it up. spike thanks - I assume you mean like ATT if that's her phone - respond if no bill w On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 5:58 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* William Flynn Wallace > *Sent:* Sunday, May 10, 2020 3:47 PM > *To:* spike ; ExI chat list < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > *Subject:* block calls > > > > >?A cousin of mine lost her ability to drive and is now in a retirement > home. ? Taking away the phone is just another terrible thing for her. > > > > >?I'll await answers. I think I know one way: put the accepted list of > numbers in the phone and block all others. Can't they do that? Is that a > possibility? > > > > >?bill w > > > > > > Sure can BillW. A lotta times that?s the way to do phones for kids. They > can call anyone they want, but only their friends and family can call > them. We use that for my son. > > > > It isn?t tricky at all. I recommend you post forward to your cousin?s > husband and suggest it forthwith. Have the guy at the shop set it up. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon May 11 00:25:30 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 19:25:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] olive oil In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Five gallons? Are you drinking it? bill w On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 10:36 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Ya that's what I was going to say as well. We use a lot in my home and > that's just 2 people > > On Sat, May 9, 2020, 23:13 SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> How does a bottle last you so long? I go through nearly 5 gallons of >> cooking oil per year... >> >> SR Ballard >> >> On May 9, 2020, at 8:42 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> Re-reading Samin Nosrat's wonderful cookbook, I see that extra virgin >> olive oil goes rancid in 12 to 14 months. What!!?? So I'll bet that most >> of us have a big container of it, rancid as hell. >> >> So I am going to buy small bottles of the best stuff and quit trying to >> save money. >> >> Truly out of sight factoid: most people like their olive oil rancid. >> They, and previously I, don't know to check the date of pressing and keep >> track of how long you've had it. >> >> I am going to buy Colavita and be done with it. >> >> Bill W >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon May 11 00:49:56 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 20:49:56 -0400 Subject: [ExI] olive oil In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't use 5 gal of olive oil but SR said just cooking oil--you use a shit ton of oil for shallow/deep frying. I fry a lot of shit so we have to get oil fairly often. I just went through about a gallon of peanut oil in 1-2 months (that's my go-to neutral frying oil.) On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 8:27 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Five gallons? Are you drinking it? bill w > > On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 10:36 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Ya that's what I was going to say as well. We use a lot in my home and >> that's just 2 people >> >> On Sat, May 9, 2020, 23:13 SR Ballard via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> How does a bottle last you so long? I go through nearly 5 gallons of >>> cooking oil per year... >>> >>> SR Ballard >>> >>> On May 9, 2020, at 8:42 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>> Re-reading Samin Nosrat's wonderful cookbook, I see that extra virgin >>> olive oil goes rancid in 12 to 14 months. What!!?? So I'll bet that most >>> of us have a big container of it, rancid as hell. >>> >>> So I am going to buy small bottles of the best stuff and quit trying to >>> save money. >>> >>> Truly out of sight factoid: most people like their olive oil rancid. >>> They, and previously I, don't know to check the date of pressing and keep >>> track of how long you've had it. >>> >>> I am going to buy Colavita and be done with it. >>> >>> Bill W >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon May 11 00:54:59 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 20:54:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Fw: A preferred direction to the universe? In-Reply-To: <002901d62712$f83c3c00$e8b4b400$@rainier66.com> References: <1468873469.397314.1589144795783@mail.yahoo.com> <897305428.411065.1589145512335@mail.yahoo.com> <002901d62712$f83c3c00$e8b4b400$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 5:36 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Behalf Of The Avantguardian via extropy-chat > Subject: [ExI] Fw: A preferred direction to the universe? > > > > ---------------------------------------- > > >...I seem to remember predicting that our universe was non-isotropic > with my causal cell argument a couple of years ago... > > If it is non-isotropic, so many of our most basic assumptions are > incorrect, or rather they are very close approximations. The ugliness in > the equations is too revolting to consider. > > ... > > >...So I wonder if the spatial variation of the fine-structure number is > large enough to influence the evolution of intelligent life? Might it serve > to narrow the anthropic principle to a more localized space-time? If so, > this spatial variation of the EM field could explain the Great Silence and > give our universe a "Goldilocks zone". > > Stuart LaForge > > _______________________________________________ > > Ja it sure would. It could mean our Goldilocks zone is temporary, perhaps > only a few tens of billions years. Do let us hope it is not true, but if > it is true, let us hope it will not become generally known. > Maybe would mean we're in a goldilocks for our particular kind of intelligent life but that's not to say that other parts of the universe might be better suited to different forms of life. Another interesting question--are there parts of the universe that we would die if we went to because the laws are different? What does that even mean? What physical quantity is actually changing as you move from here to there? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon May 11 00:57:37 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 20:57:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Fw: A preferred direction to the universe? In-Reply-To: References: <1468873469.397314.1589144795783@mail.yahoo.com> <897305428.411065.1589145512335@mail.yahoo.com> <002901d62712$f83c3c00$e8b4b400$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I think one of the best ways to rationalize this, now that I think about it, is for particles to have their own rules about the universe, and not the universe having rules about particles. Or maybe not particles but some kind of weird dark matter cells that matter/energy accretes around. So we just happen to live in a part of the universe where all the matter and energy agrees that the fine structure constant is so-and-so. But over there, down the gradient, the stuff on that side of the universe doesn't think it's the same. Just trying to figure out where this information is stored. Makes more sense to me that it is stored locally instead of globally (especially since it appears to be able to vary.) On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 8:54 PM Will Steinberg wrote: > On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 5:36 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> > On Behalf Of The Avantguardian via extropy-chat >> Subject: [ExI] Fw: A preferred direction to the universe? >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------- >> >> >...I seem to remember predicting that our universe was non-isotropic >> with my causal cell argument a couple of years ago... >> >> If it is non-isotropic, so many of our most basic assumptions are >> incorrect, or rather they are very close approximations. The ugliness in >> the equations is too revolting to consider. >> >> ... >> >> >...So I wonder if the spatial variation of the fine-structure number is >> large enough to influence the evolution of intelligent life? Might it serve >> to narrow the anthropic principle to a more localized space-time? If so, >> this spatial variation of the EM field could explain the Great Silence and >> give our universe a "Goldilocks zone". >> >> Stuart LaForge >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Ja it sure would. It could mean our Goldilocks zone is temporary, >> perhaps only a few tens of billions years. Do let us hope it is not true, >> but if it is true, let us hope it will not become generally known. >> > > Maybe would mean we're in a goldilocks for our particular kind of > intelligent life but that's not to say that other parts of the universe > might be better suited to different forms of life. > > Another interesting question--are there parts of the universe that we > would die if we went to because the laws are different? What does that > even mean? What physical quantity is actually changing as you move from > here to there? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon May 11 01:05:01 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 20:05:01 -0500 Subject: [ExI] olive oil In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I understand. I use olive, peanut and roasted hazelnut in various methods, the latter for sauteing fish. Of course the olive does double duty - salad and frying if I want that flavor. I have two kinds of coconut oil: one denatured (does not smell like anything), and plain, with the smell. The first one I use on my skin. Oh, and I occasionally use ghee. But mainly butter. More than anything else. (the cats I cook for - hello Spike! - don't like olive oil, so it's butter or peanut). If you like to cook you will really like the Nosrat book. Not for the recipes -for the reading - 28 pages on how to salt, what kind of salt (differences that will amaze you) and so on. bill w On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 7:52 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I don't use 5 gal of olive oil but SR said just cooking oil--you use a > shit ton of oil for shallow/deep frying. I fry a lot of shit so we have to > get oil fairly often. I just went through about a gallon of peanut oil in > 1-2 months (that's my go-to neutral frying oil.) > > On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 8:27 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Five gallons? Are you drinking it? bill w >> >> On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 10:36 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Ya that's what I was going to say as well. We use a lot in my home and >>> that's just 2 people >>> >>> On Sat, May 9, 2020, 23:13 SR Ballard via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> How does a bottle last you so long? I go through nearly 5 gallons of >>>> cooking oil per year... >>>> >>>> SR Ballard >>>> >>>> On May 9, 2020, at 8:42 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Re-reading Samin Nosrat's wonderful cookbook, I see that extra virgin >>>> olive oil goes rancid in 12 to 14 months. What!!?? So I'll bet that most >>>> of us have a big container of it, rancid as hell. >>>> >>>> So I am going to buy small bottles of the best stuff and quit trying to >>>> save money. >>>> >>>> Truly out of sight factoid: most people like their olive oil rancid. >>>> They, and previously I, don't know to check the date of pressing and keep >>>> track of how long you've had it. >>>> >>>> I am going to buy Colavita and be done with it. >>>> >>>> Bill W >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon May 11 05:00:01 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 01:00:01 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Boltzmann brains In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 4:21 AM Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > > > On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 16:47, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >>> ### Which cosmological models make Boltzmann brains more likely, and how? >> > > Here is a paper co-authored by several eminent cosmologists: > > ?The simplest interpretation of the observed accelerating expansion of the > universe is that it is driven by a constant vacuum energy density ??, which > is about three times greater than the present density of nonrelativistic > matter. While ordinary matter becomes more dilute as the universe expands, > the vacuum energy density remains the same, and in another ten billion > years or so the universe will be completely dominated by vacuum energy. The > subsequent evolution of the universe is accurately described as de Sitter > space. > It was shown by Gibbons and Hawking [1] that an observer in de Sitter > space would detect thermal radiation with a characteristic temperature TdS > = H?/2?, where > H? =??8?G?? (1) 3 > is the de Sitter Hubble expansion rate. For the observed value of ??, the > de Sitter temperature is extremely low, TdS = 2.3 ? 10?30 K. Nevertheless, > complex structures will occasionally emerge from the vacuum as quantum > fluctuations, at a small but nonzero rate per unit space-time volume. An > intelligent observer, like a human, could be one such structure. Or, short > of a complete observer, a disembodied brain may fluctuate into existence, > with a pattern of neuron firings creating a perception of be- ing on Earth > and, for example, observing the cosmic mi- crowave background radiation. > Such freak observers are collectively referred to as ?Boltzmann brains? [2, > 3]. Of course, the nucleation rate ?BB of Boltzmann brains is extremely > small, its magnitude depending on how one defines a Boltzmann brain. The > important point, however, is that ?BB is always nonzero. > De Sitter space is eternal to the future. Thus, if the accelerating > expansion of the universe is truly driven by the energy density of a stable > vacuum state, then Boltzmann brains will eventually outnumber normal > observers, no matter how small the value of ?BB [4, 7, 5, 8, 9] might be. > > https://arxiv.org/pdf/0808.3778.pdf > > There are other models, such as eternal inflation, where Boltzmann brains > may predominate. > > Most physicists see it as a problem with their theories, but on its own it > doesn?t seem to be enough to dismiss a theory, unlike, say, an astronomical > prediction that turns out to be wrong. > > > ### The theories assume that the quantum vacuum fluctuations sample the space of all possible arrangements of matter in an inverse-size dependent manner. All structures are created by fluctuations but the larger the structure the lower the density of such structures in the De Sitter space. Since De Sitter space is infinitely growing, Boltzmann brains at some point outnumber evolved brains, for some choices of measurement basis. I agree that this assumption is not enough to dismiss those theories. As I mentioned before, Wolfram's approach dispenses with randomness and imposes structure on vacuum, thus allowing (but not necessarily forcing) universes without Boltzmann brains. This is of course not a sufficient reason to choose his approach over conventional ones. However, if his research program generates theories that have an equal explanatory power to conventional theories, then the potential absence of Boltzmann brains might be a factor in his favor, for Occam's razor reasons. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon May 11 05:43:09 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 01:43:09 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 8:06 AM Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > I don't think this will solve the essential problem. I think any upload is > problematic. I believe there are two problems that will be really hard to > solve: first, preserving the cyclic, dynamical environment of non-neural > information available in the body such as hormonal cycles or feedback from > non-neural neurotransmitters (such as from your gut) is difficult, with no > solution on the horizon. > ### There is no innate physical difference between brain neurotransmitters and rest of the body hormones as a class. In fact, many neurotransmitters have dual CNS and peripheral actions. Any technology that accurately models the chemistry of the brain will have no problem with modeling the chemistry of the body and will necessarily have to model its impacts on the brain. ------------------------- > Second, your cortex is specifically wired to accomodate your body, with > all its quirks, balances, habits, accomodations, skillz, and tics. Every > human body is different and each body's cortex learns the characteristics > of that body. While we know the cortex is nearly infinitely able to > accomodate and learn, learning an entirely new corporeal system may not > only overwhelm it, but the being that emerges after this process is highly > likely to not be "you". > ### This would not be a problem for an upload. For those who wish it, an emulation of the body should be possible, if ruinously expensive, including an exact copy taken from scanned individual body information. ------------------------ > > I'm a participant in cryonics research because I want to be reanimated as > myself. I'm not so interested in contributing a brain pattern that took me > my whole life to create (and that I like very much!!) so be uploaded to > some other agent who can use it to wire-up a version based on me that is so > foreign that I'm not really there. > ### I am signed up for neuropreservation. My attitude towards my own life (and in no way is this personal and idiosyncratic attitude to be taken as an opinion about how other people should approach their own lives), is that any physical structure that processes information in a manner sufficiently similar to me is actually me, and not some other agent. This means that there could be millions of me's and each and every one of me would see all of them as himself, just in other locations. I am willing to be quite liberal about the details of how this me-pattern is implemented, whether in biological brains, in dedicated hardware or even cobbled together from off-the-shelf software-simulated neural components (e.g. whole visual system, or a limbic system emulation), as long as enough indexical information is there to differentiate me from others. > > IMHO, YMMV ~! > ### Indeed, I strongly agree on the IMHO and YMMV here :) Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon May 11 05:48:38 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 01:48:38 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 9:37 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > I happen to think that's exactly what Alcor should be saying, but the > ghost of the discredited 19th century theory of Vitalism is still haunting > the 21th century and many still think that despite all the scientific > evidence to the contrary the atoms in our bodies must somehow have our name > scratched on them. I suspect Alcor is reluctant to change because they > believe ASC would be bad public relations. But I think reality is more > important than PR and the Vitalism superstition could get people killed. > ### Yes, I wish Alcor would offer ASC an an option, no matter what additional cost I would take it. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon May 11 05:51:15 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 01:51:15 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 10:57 AM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Which copy wins the philosophical claim of "being" "me" doesn't worry me. > > Which one wins the legal claims of "gets to lock the other copies of me > out of the house I'm living in now", "gets to continue the relationship I > have with my employer right now", and most importantly, the social claim of > "gets to hang out with my unduplicated wife and kids"... > > These worry me a great deal. Enough that I think I'd like to have a good > plan in place to resolve those claims before a hundred (or a million!) of > me wake up one fine morning each having a 99 (or 99.9999!) percent chance > of being disposessed of unduplicatable real property and relationships and > we have to start playing Highlander ("There can be only one!"). > ### Yes, it's very important to take care of the legal niceties first, before sticking your head inside the laser brain-milling nano-scanner machine! A simple will might perhaps suffice. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon May 11 05:55:54 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 01:55:54 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 3:23 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: The point of cryopreservation is that we can't upload brains yet, so > it's a way of preserving the information until we can. Once we can > upload wet brains, no-one would bother with cryopreservation (assuming > the upload process wouldn't destroy the brain, which it probably would). > > ### Elon Musk tweeted recently about Neuralink progress. Maybe cryonics will end up being a Plan B, and even us relatively old folks will be still able to squeeze ourselves up into the internets through his nanowire implants. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon May 11 06:01:40 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 02:01:40 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 12:22 PM Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > But worse - ASC is complete brain destruction, leaving you reliant on a > clean reading of the data within that brain. And while we can map the > geography of the connectome clearly from an ASC preserved brain (if we can > Eye-Wire all the neurons! And glia....) we can't read the chemical states, > plus we lose all the dynamics of the smaller dendritic spines. The chemical > states include both the ionic state of each neuron, plus the pattern of > neurotransmitter concentrations. That information is all lost. Forever. > ### That information is lost within 20 minutes of dying, no matter what approach you take to preservation. > > So, I say a huge *ACK!* to aldehyde stabilized cryopreservation, beautiful > as it is. It's a great tool to stabilize the tissue and to study the > connectome, no question. Brilliant. But if you ever want to be "you" again > - keep your brain intact !!! > ### As I mentioned, who is me is a matter of personal opinion. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon May 11 06:21:37 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 02:21:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Takers and Makers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 3:01 AM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > The Right tends to worship hierarchy, tradition, and obedience. > ### This is no longer true. It is the left that worships dominance, rigid bureaucratic rules and demands obedience, ever since the Left wrested power from the Right (about 100 years in the US by now). What the Left worshipped before glomming on to power is a history long gone. Actually, I don't really care about Left-Right politicking and pigeonholing. I prefer to divide people among two general classes: Those who ask "Who? Whom?" and those who ask "What? How? Why?" Another division that I like, often coinciding with the above dichotomy, is Takers and Makers. And then there are those who say "My way or no way" and there are those who say "Live and let live". These divisions reflect important cognitive and emotional differences among people which shape their interests (Who vs. What), which leads them to take on different social roles (Takers vs. Makers) and embody different recipes for life (My way vs. Let live). Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon May 11 06:35:02 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 02:35:02 -0400 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: <833B70EB-771C-4B71-AC1E-62B5D57E0026@gmail.com> References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> <017f01d6230b$c5b404d0$511c0e70$@rainier66.com> <833B70EB-771C-4B71-AC1E-62B5D57E0026@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 4:13 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Technically, no one ever has to hold the bag because you can: > > (1) Default > (2) New country/government > (3) Inflation (?Money printer goes brrrrr?) > ### Garrett Jones in "10% Less Democracy" takes apart this reasoning. Worth reading. Basically, governments are in a long-term game. There is always the next fiscal year coming, and most governments are pretty sure they will need to borrow in that year too. If they default on debts to independent external creditors, they won't be able to find lenders next year, so they grumble and moan but keep paying interest and tighten their citizens' collective belt to keep the money flowing. In this way external creditors act as a disciplining factor to governments and reduce democracy (which is a good thing!). Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon May 11 06:51:04 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 02:51:04 -0400 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: <6A772EA4-0344-476E-A4CA-A5654812DB7F@gmail.com> References: <6A772EA4-0344-476E-A4CA-A5654812DB7F@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 4:47 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > That you fail to assimilate the actual findings of gender/sex science > seems to show are casting out science... > ### No, actually I am quite well-versed in the science of gender, and psychometry, and psychiatry, and that's precisely the reason why I call BS on leftoids peddling their inane ideas. -------------------------------- > > Being gay or trans significantly interferes with one's ability to create > and maintain stable, child- > > rearing families. This is a simple biological and statistical fact. > Dismissing this fact as "religious > > morality with pseudo-biological rationale" doesn't make it go away. > > > It's not established in that way at all. For a long time and even now, > institutional regimes -- in other words, laws and norms inside institutions > -- do their best to promote cis only families. For instance, non-hetero > parents are prevented from adopting or keeping children (and thus forming > families with children). This is legal disruption of family formation and > stability. (It also doesn't help when, for instance, parents ostracize a > child who identifies as non-binary or non-hetero. Do you doubt this > happens? Do you doubt it can disruptive to not only the family of origin > but can disrupt the child's ability to bond with others?) > ### This is BS. -------------------------- > > > This is similar to how many so called learned men said women should go to > college and pursue degrees, especially not in STEM fields, because of their > biology: that their biology means they're less able to do the work, > concentrate, be rational, etc. When, in fact, there's no biological basis > for these claims and the empirical fact that less women were in these > fields at the time had to do with institutional obstacles and cultural > norms. > ### Absolutely to the contrary, there is a very strong biological basis to the differences between men and women in STEM fields. --------------------------- > That's the thing with facts, they don't go away even if you call them bad > names. > > > Apparently calling trans people malingers or disturbed is okay though. Or > do you have a factual basis that trans people are more likely to be > malingerers or disturbed than cis people? (And I mean beyond social and > legal stigmas that tend to make it harder for anyone not fitting social > gender normals to get jobs and lead otherwise normal lives.) > ### Look up the statistics on the prevalence of psychiatric comorbidity among trannnies. And don't tell me their sky-high rates of psychological disturbance are due to us normal folks oppressing them, or something like that. Yes, there are now malingerers pretending to be trannies in order to run roughshod over women's sports or to get social kudos for being more intersectional than the other, vanilla leftoids. Let me be clear - It is not morally wrong to be a tranny. However, it does suck, statistically speaking, to be a tranny. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon May 11 07:10:29 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 03:10:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <001401d62478$f2b5bb40$d82131c0$@rainier66.com> References: <001401d62478$f2b5bb40$d82131c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 10:33 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better > > > > On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 9:18 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote > > > > *> **This type of post from you tells me you clearly only use the > scientific method when it suits your TDS.* > > > > >?It's amazing how extensively the Trump Cult has spread? John K Clark > > > > > > John you still haven?t figured out you are one of those helping spread > that. But we have. > > > ### Indeed. When I first heard about Trump running for prez, I snickered. Even later on I was rather "Meh" about him. But as time went by and all the John Clarks of the world saturated the interwebs with TDS hysteria, I started turning into a Trump supporter, first slowly, then a lot quicker. Now even if Trump was shown on credible footage eating adorable dachshund puppies alive, I would just say "Whatever suits your palate, Master". Thank you John for turning me to the Trump side. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon May 11 07:17:29 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 03:17:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 2:39 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, May 7, 2020, 12:48 John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 11:44 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> >> >>> *> OK John, we will come clean. You caught us. Everyone on this list >>> is in the Trump cult, except you. * >>> >> >> OK Spike, I will come clean. You caught me. Nobody on this list has Trump >> Derangement Syndrome except for me. And I'm a Troll too and operate a >> covert false flag operation because nobody could sincerely believe Trump >> was as dumb as dogshit when it's so obvious he's very sharp. As sharp as >> a beach ball. >> > > I have never seen anyone on this list say that Trump is smart. Even > Rafal, who is comically right wing > ### Man, you don't know the least of it! I am so far to the right I circle around to the left of most leftists. ---------------------- > I have never seen call Trump smart. > ### Trump is smart. There, I said it. Rafal. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon May 11 07:21:08 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 03:21:08 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <001501d624a0$af98c3c0$0eca4b40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 4:14 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The funny thing is that, like Bush II before him, Trump had a long career > in the public eye long before he became President. And during those > careers, prior to them entering the White House, not one of their enemies > (and both of them had many) ever credibly called them stupid. > > "Corrupt", yes. "Venal", yes. Even "rude" and "uncouth". But never > "stupid". > > It seems Republican presidents only ever become stupid once they're > elected President. > > ### And their estimated intelligence goes back to normal once the new Republican president needs to be put down as being inferior to his predecessors, isn't that interesting? Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon May 11 07:30:08 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 03:30:08 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <001501d624a0$af98c3c0$0eca4b40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 8:11 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: For Rafal, I understand, because Rafal probably has a homemade fasces > sitting over his mantel. ;) > ### I do have an SPQR badge from my time in the Legion but no fasces, never got the promotion. And like listening to the Arditi. I worship the AR-15 in my Lararium. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon May 11 07:41:41 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 03:41:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] brittle systems In-Reply-To: <112C0546-4480-49FC-8FDF-58F2C2C1B695@gmail.com> References: <013701d625b5$873da240$95b8e6c0$@rainier66.com> <112C0546-4480-49FC-8FDF-58F2C2C1B695@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 3:37 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Redlining is an example. > ### It's an example of what happens when a leftist, activist and racist government starts regulating banking. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Mon May 11 07:45:08 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 17:45:08 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Boltzmann brains In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 11 May 2020 at 15:02, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 4:21 AM Stathis Papaioannou > wrote: > >> >> >> On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 16:47, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>>> ### Which cosmological models make Boltzmann brains more likely, and >>> how? >>> >> >> Here is a paper co-authored by several eminent cosmologists: >> >> ?The simplest interpretation of the observed accelerating expansion of >> the universe is that it is driven by a constant vacuum energy density ??, >> which is about three times greater than the present density of >> nonrelativistic matter. While ordinary matter becomes more dilute as the >> universe expands, the vacuum energy density remains the same, and in >> another ten billion years or so the universe will be completely dominated >> by vacuum energy. The subsequent evolution of the universe is accurately >> described as de Sitter space. >> It was shown by Gibbons and Hawking [1] that an observer in de Sitter >> space would detect thermal radiation with a characteristic temperature TdS >> = H?/2?, where >> H? =??8?G?? (1) 3 >> is the de Sitter Hubble expansion rate. For the observed value of ??, the >> de Sitter temperature is extremely low, TdS = 2.3 ? 10?30 K. Nevertheless, >> complex structures will occasionally emerge from the vacuum as quantum >> fluctuations, at a small but nonzero rate per unit space-time volume. An >> intelligent observer, like a human, could be one such structure. Or, short >> of a complete observer, a disembodied brain may fluctuate into existence, >> with a pattern of neuron firings creating a perception of be- ing on Earth >> and, for example, observing the cosmic mi- crowave background radiation. >> Such freak observers are collectively referred to as ?Boltzmann brains? [2, >> 3]. Of course, the nucleation rate ?BB of Boltzmann brains is extremely >> small, its magnitude depending on how one defines a Boltzmann brain. The >> important point, however, is that ?BB is always nonzero. >> De Sitter space is eternal to the future. Thus, if the accelerating >> expansion of the universe is truly driven by the energy density of a stable >> vacuum state, then Boltzmann brains will eventually outnumber normal >> observers, no matter how small the value of ?BB [4, 7, 5, 8, 9] might be. >> >> https://arxiv.org/pdf/0808.3778.pdf >> >> There are other models, such as eternal inflation, where Boltzmann brains >> may predominate. >> >> Most physicists see it as a problem with their theories, but on its own >> it doesn?t seem to be enough to dismiss a theory, unlike, say, an >> astronomical prediction that turns out to be wrong. >> >> >> > ### The theories assume that the quantum vacuum fluctuations sample the > space of all possible arrangements of matter in an inverse-size dependent > manner. All structures are created by fluctuations but the larger the > structure the lower the density of such structures in the De Sitter space. > Since De Sitter space is infinitely growing, Boltzmann brains at some point > outnumber evolved brains, for some choices of measurement basis. I agree > that this assumption is not enough to dismiss those theories. > > As I mentioned before, Wolfram's approach dispenses with randomness and > imposes structure on vacuum, thus allowing (but not necessarily forcing) > universes without Boltzmann brains. This is of course not a sufficient > reason to choose his approach over conventional ones. However, if his > research program generates theories that have an equal explanatory power to > conventional theories, then the potential absence of Boltzmann brains might > be a factor in his favor, for Occam's razor reasons. > Randomness is not required, in general, to explore the possibility space. We see this with deterministic Many Worlds compared with probabilistic Copenhagen Interpretation. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Mon May 11 07:59:44 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 08:59:44 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/05/2020 06:49, Rafal wrote: > On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 9:37 AM John Clark via extropy-chat > > wrote: > > > I happen to think that's exactly what Alcor should be saying, but > the ghost of the discredited 19th century theory of Vitalism is > still haunting the 21th century and many still think that despite > all the scientific evidence to the contrary the atoms in our > bodies must somehow have our name scratched on them. I suspect > Alcor is reluctant to change because they believe ASC would be bad > public relations. But I think reality is more important than PR > and the Vitalism superstition could get people killed. > > > ### Yes, I wish Alcor would offer ASC an an option, no matter what > additional cost I would take it. > > Rafal > I have a question: If aldehyde stabilisation cross-links proteins, why is cryopreservation required? Wouldn't aldehyde stabilisation followed by inflitration with a resin (like with electron microscope samples) work for preserving a brain with no need for cryopreservation? This seems the ideal solution to me, if it would work. Your brain could then sit on a mantelpiece (or in a bank vault) until it can be uploaded, and you wouldn't need to rely on an expensive and vulnerable (not to mention rare) cyronics facility. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon May 11 08:04:38 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 04:04:38 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <005401d62573$d55b5e50$80121af0$@rainier66.com> References: <017401d6255c$ba509330$2ef1b990$@rainier66.com> <005401d62573$d55b5e50$80121af0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 4:06 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > Dylan this whole thing was a most interesting public lesson in civics. > POTUS issued these lockdown orders. Immediately Californians began to ask > by what authority can POTUS give us orders? Answer: none. So nothing much > happened then, which is why the local representative was seen in Chinatown, > clearly violating that order. > > > > Then states got into the act: our governor issued pretty similar orders, > and again we wanted to know how the governor has the authority to make such > demands. > ### Actually, this was a piece a five-dimensional political ju-jitsu by Trump: First he made some mouth noises about ordering state governors to do his bidding. The governors demurred. Trump slumped, beaten, was all hands off. All governors, donkey and elephant, after re-affirming their prerogatives, felt invigorated and got to work to make themselves look very busy, powerful and important. Predictably, they screwed up monumentally, in part because it was too late for lockdowns to work. Now the donkey governors had to show how anti-Trump they are, so they had to double down on lockdown, earning prole enmity. Elephants don't have that problem, so they started easing off or even avoided locking people down in the first place. Now Trump avoids the blame for the lockdowns but gets the credit for lifting them. Basically, Trump destroyed the presidential chances of a lot of up-and-coming Democratic politicians by prodding them to rule according to their authoritarian inclinations. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon May 11 08:12:12 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 04:12:12 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <004201d62632$7f66c470$7e344d50$@rainier66.com> References: <003001d62600$22fd00f0$68f702d0$@rainier66.com> <008a01d62610$389c7c00$a9d57400$@rainier66.com> <004201d62632$7f66c470$7e344d50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 2:51 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > If we could be absolutely sure you don?t have actual Chinese paymasters, > we would take that as satire. China did this to us, specifically President > Xi, and John you posted comments defending Xi as late as March 17. > ### And he posted links to and praised a Chicom propaganda video! WTF?? Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon May 11 08:24:27 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 04:24:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response In-Reply-To: References: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> <013a01d6265b$6cd44b60$467ce220$@rainier66.com> <73820E71-BC20-43EA-AB7E-AA92C891B9D1@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 8:31 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Why? In the last 2 centuries we have dramatically improved our wealth > generating machinery, aka our productivity, so as long as the borrowing is > not larger than the rate of wealth generation improvement it would make > perfect economic sense to borrow a hard to make dollar today if I can pay > it back with a easy to make dollar tomorrow. And that's why, except for > the Clinton years, the USA has been running a budget deficit every single > year since 1835. And in the entire history of the nation you will not find > a time less appropriate to worry about the budget deficit than right now! > ### As much as it surprises me to agree with John on a non-STEM matter, deficit spending does have some good justifications in terms of its impact on the quality of governance. Once again let me plug for Garrett Jones' "10% Less democracy". The measly four hundred billion dollars paid to bond-holders every year is a cheap price for keeping politicians from being even worse than they are. Aficionados of GoT may seek parallels to the impact of the Iron Bank on Westerosi politics. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon May 11 08:48:11 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 04:48:11 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Boltzmann brains In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 3:45 AM Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > > > On Mon, 11 May 2020 at 15:02, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> ### The theories assume that the quantum vacuum fluctuations sample the >> space of all possible arrangements of matter in an inverse-size dependent >> manner. All structures are created by fluctuations but the larger the >> structure the lower the density of such structures in the De Sitter space. >> Since De Sitter space is infinitely growing, Boltzmann brains at some point >> outnumber evolved brains, for some choices of measurement basis. I agree >> that this assumption is not enough to dismiss those theories. >> >> As I mentioned before, Wolfram's approach dispenses with randomness and >> imposes structure on vacuum, thus allowing (but not necessarily forcing) >> universes without Boltzmann brains. This is of course not a sufficient >> reason to choose his approach over conventional ones. However, if his >> research program generates theories that have an equal explanatory power to >> conventional theories, then the potential absence of Boltzmann brains might >> be a factor in his favor, for Occam's razor reasons. >> > > Randomness is not required, in general, to explore the possibility space. > We see this with deterministic Many Worlds compared with probabilistic > Copenhagen Interpretation. > >> > ### Indeed, randomness vs. determinism is not the whole story. It's the structure that Wolfram imposes on vacuum that matters as well - each of his hypergraph/rule combinations generates only patterns specific to that combination, rather than all imaginable patterns. Many Worlds on the other hand generates all possible outcomes according to the Born rule. The hypergraph that describes our universe and subsumes QM, GR and string theory might (but maybe does not have to) restrict quantum fluctuations to generate only a subset of physical structures. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon May 11 08:54:27 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 04:54:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 4:07 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > If aldehyde stabilisation cross-links proteins, why is cryopreservation > required? Wouldn't aldehyde stabilisation followed by inflitration with a > resin (like with electron microscope samples) work for preserving a brain > with no need for cryopreservation? This seems the ideal solution to me, if > it would work. Your brain could then sit on a mantelpiece (or in a bank > vault) until it can be uploaded, and you wouldn't need to rely on an > expensive and vulnerable (not to mention rare) cyronics facility. > ### There are some limitations to resin infiltration for large pieces of tissue, so you might have to slice the brain finely after ACS but this should not be a problem if your blade is sharp enough. I would consider being resin-preserved for the reasons you mention. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon May 11 12:04:49 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 08:04:49 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 1:46 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *### There is no innate physical difference between brain > neurotransmitters and rest of the body hormones as a class. In fact, many > neurotransmitters have dual CNS and peripheral actions.* > Exactly. And when you get down to it hormones are just a way to transmit information, a very slow low bandwidth way. > *### This would not be a problem for an upload. For those who wish it, an > emulation of the body should be possible, if ruinously expensive,* > I have to disagree here. I don't think anybody is going to be revived until the age of Nanotechnology has arrived, and when you have self reproducing nanomachines almost everything we can think of today could be put into 2 categories, physically impossible and very cheap. If we really are cryopreserved shortly after our deaths and if our brains really are maintained at liquid nitrogen temperatures until the age of Nanotechnology then I think we have a moderately good chance of not ending up in the "physically impossible" category, so then the only remaining question would be if Mr. Jupiter Brain thinks we're worth the effort. The fact that it would be very cheap is encouraging, maybe we'd have some small nostalgic value to the gentleman, or maybe he's just a nice guy. Or maybe not, I just don't know, but I think it's worth a try. > *### I am signed up for neuropreservation.* > Me too. > *My attitude towards my own life (and in no way is this personal and > idiosyncratic attitude to be taken as an opinion about how other people > should approach their own lives), is that any physical structure that > processes information in a manner sufficiently similar to me is actually > me, and not some other agent.* > I have the same attitude but I think it's more than a idiosyncratic whim, it's clearly in the direction that science shows. The only way we could be wrong would be if it turned out the Bible Thumpers were right after all, but I think that possibility is much too small to worry about. > > *This means that there could be millions of me's and each and every one > of me would see all of them as himself, just in other locations. I am > willing to be quite liberal about the details of how this me-pattern is > implemented,* > Yes, they'd all have the same past that you have right now with exactly the same memories, but they would have different futures because they would be put into different situations. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon May 11 12:24:00 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 08:24:00 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 1:53 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> **### Yes, I wish Alcor would offer ASC an an option, no matter what > additional cost I would take it.* Rafal, you really should go to Alcor's General Forum and let your wishes be known, I've been pushing for ASC for years but have met with a lot of resistance there. The ghost of the vitalism superstition is strong, even at Alcor. Alcor General Forum John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon May 11 13:09:21 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 09:09:21 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <003001d62600$22fd00f0$68f702d0$@rainier66.com> <008a01d62610$389c7c00$a9d57400$@rainier66.com> <004201d62632$7f66c470$7e344d50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 4:26 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> ### And he posted links to and praised a Chicom propaganda video!* > > *WTF??* > And I clearly labeled it as Chinese propaganda, it was even the subject title of the thread, and I said it should have included the shameful Chinese cover up during the first 3 weeks of the outbreak in December; but if it had included that then it wouldn't have been propaganda, it would have just been a video accurately showing the facts. Just because something comes from the propaganda agency of a totalitarian country doesn't necessarily mean it's all lies. If the facts are on your side then even Big Brother doesn't have to lie, and by pure random chance sometimes they are. A Chinese animated propaganda video John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon May 11 14:17:57 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 10:17:57 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 4:08 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> If aldehyde stabilisation cross-links proteins, why is cryopreservation > required?* If you're only interested in very short term storage freezing wouldn't be required, but even though the microscopic parts of the brain have been physically locked in place, at room temperatures chemical reactions can still occur. To a rough approximation the speed of a chemical reaction doubles with every 10 degree Centigrade increase in temperature. Even dry ice at -78 C would only be good for storage of a few months, but with liquid nitrogen at -196C you'd be OK for many centuries. Even -135C would be cold enough and some prefer that temperature because it avoids cracking, but that's a minor problem that I don't think is worth the greater expense, and the added complexity dramatically decreases my confidence low temperatures can reliably be maintained for a very long time. Complex things need more maintenance than simple things and I can't predict what the quality or quantity of Alcor's future maintenance abilities will be. The advantage of ASC is that as the brain freezes the microscopic parts of the brain are not pushed out of place, that's why I think it would be better than the vitrification process that Alcor currently uses. And if it turns out that push is chaotic then ASC is not only better it's the only method that has a chance of working. Actually I don't think it's chaotic, I think the flow is probably Laminar, but why take the chance, and why make things for the people (or whatever) that want to revive us more difficult than they need to be. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon May 11 16:26:43 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 11:26:43 -0500 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again Message-ID: Once again I am very wrong about people. Maybe I should have stuck with using my music degree. Surveys show that about 30% of Americans believe that a vaccine exists but it is being withheld, and that a cure for the virus exists but is being withheld. Now if true these would be earth-shaking facts and Hell to pay. I could not find estimates of what percentage of the people are often affected by Kruger-Dunning, but more and more I think it's alarmingly high - 30% above may be an underestimate. It make me wonder what would have happened if owning property was a prerequisite of voting. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon May 11 16:40:23 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 12:40:23 -0400 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Unfortunately, along with our rugged individualism, the US also has a very long history of apocalypse religions, conspiracy theorists, and other cults. It appears to be in our cultural DNA. It is disheartening to read this kind of statistic (along with the ones on how many Americans consider the theory of evolution to be valid). I don't know if there are any flaws in the survey methodology, but I would expect not. I'm also all for people making their own choices on navigating the current CV-19 situation and going out, but I am disappointed to see all of the anti-mask rhetoric as some kind of revolt against the lockdowns. The masks for me are a no brainer, although I am against mandates requiring them. I just don't see any downside to mask wearing in this situation, especially when it seems to be a common behavior in places that have done a better job of slowing the spread. Unfortunately both the corrupt WHO and our own government have given earlier conflicting information on them which has created further mistrust. OTOH, I am completely against this contact tracing nonsense that is being tied to reopenings, and adding more government workers to suck at the taxpayer teat as part of it. On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 12:28 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Once again I am very wrong about people. Maybe I should have stuck with > using my music degree. Surveys show that about 30% of Americans believe > that a vaccine exists but it is being withheld, and that a cure for the > virus exists but is being withheld. > > Now if true these would be earth-shaking facts and Hell to pay. > > I could not find estimates of what percentage of the people are often > affected by Kruger-Dunning, but more and more I think it's alarmingly high > - 30% above may be an underestimate. > > It make me wonder what would have happened if owning property was a > prerequisite of voting. > > bill w > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon May 11 16:54:15 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 09:54:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008401d627b4$cec03d70$6c40b850$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again >? Surveys show that about 30% of Americans believe that a vaccine exists but it is being withheld, and that a cure for the virus exists but is being withheld? Ja that whole narrative is being fed by the case load in China falling to zero. I have my notion on what is causing that: they lie. If one accepts their word on it, then we get to pick an explanation, none of which are very plausible. Their strict lockdown is working far better than any other countries doing similar measures (quite dubious), they have some kind of genetic-based immunity (we know they don?t) the virus loves communists (doubt that one) any one of a number of similarly suspect theories, or they must have discovered a vaccine or a cure. Given all those, I suspect they are lying with their numbers. Reasoning: even if they did discover a cure, they would still have cured cases, or if a vaccine, they couldn?t immunize 1.4 billion people that fast. Given those choices, I see why 30% of Americans believe that a vaccine exists, but we don?t have it here. >?Now if true these would be earth-shaking facts and Hell to pay? Indeed? What hell is China going to pay, after we already know they kept the outbreak secret until it could spread to the whole planet? >?It make me wonder what would have happened if owning property was a prerequisite of voting. bill w Owning property doesn?t make one smart. Evidence would be to ask respondents if they own property, then see what percentage thinks a secret C-19 cure exists. If owning property ever became a prerequisite for voting, oh mercy that would be a grand opportunity to make a buttload of money. I co-own some ?property? in West Virginia with no road to it. My property taxes are under 3 dollars a year on that. It has no zoning and no restrictions from sub-dividing it, as far as we know. We could study the definition of the term ?property? then figure out how many separate piece of ?property? could be created and sold per square foot. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon May 11 17:36:37 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 13:36:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 3:22 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > ### Trump is smart. There, I said it. Would it also be smart for a person to inject himself with Clorox or isopropyl alcohol and shove a UV flashlight up his ass? And Rafal, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you said you were a libertarian, how do you square that with Trump being a fierce opponent of Free Trade, Euthanasia, Abortion, Marijuana, and Bitcoin, and being strongly in favor of Strong Encryption only for government use so they can keep secrets from us but we can't keep secrets from them, and Trump wanting to "*open up our libel laws*" so that whenever anybody says something about the President he doesn't like he can personally "*sue them and win lots of money*". These things and being a libertarian just don't seem compatible to me. Show me why I'm wrong. John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon May 11 17:51:02 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 12:51:02 -0500 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: <008401d627b4$cec03d70$6c40b850$@rainier66.com> References: <008401d627b4$cec03d70$6c40b850$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I already have property on the Moon. Having some in WV would really round off my possessions. Biggest assortment of rednecks outside of Hamilton Ohio (my ex said that her hometown was full of them - surprising). Owning property doesn?t make one smart. spike Wanna bet? I'll eat your lunch,supper, and breakfast the next day. Sure, some of them are as dumb as lint, but to own and keep owning it shows signs of intelligence - not a lot, I"ll admit. bill w On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 11:56 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* [ExI] kruger dunning again > > > > >? Surveys show that about 30% of Americans believe that a vaccine exists > but it is being withheld, and that a cure for the virus exists but is being > withheld? > > > > Ja that whole narrative is being fed by the case load in China falling to > zero. I have my notion on what is causing that: they lie. If one accepts > their word on it, then we get to pick an explanation, none of which are > very plausible. Their strict lockdown is working far better than any other > countries doing similar measures (quite dubious), they have some kind of > genetic-based immunity (we know they don?t) the virus loves communists > (doubt that one) any one of a number of similarly suspect theories, or they > must have discovered a vaccine or a cure. > > > > Given all those, I suspect they are lying with their numbers. Reasoning: > even if they did discover a cure, they would still have cured cases, or if > a vaccine, they couldn?t immunize 1.4 billion people that fast. > > > > Given those choices, I see why 30% of Americans believe that a vaccine > exists, but we don?t have it here. > > > > >?Now if true these would be earth-shaking facts and Hell to pay? > > > > Indeed? What hell is China going to pay, after we already know they kept > the outbreak secret until it could spread to the whole planet? > > > > >?It make me wonder what would have happened if owning property was a > prerequisite of voting. > > > > bill w > > > > Owning property doesn?t make one smart. Evidence would be to ask > respondents if they own property, then see what percentage thinks a secret > C-19 cure exists. > > > > If owning property ever became a prerequisite for voting, oh mercy that > would be a grand opportunity to make a buttload of money. > > > > I co-own some ?property? in West Virginia with no road to it. My property > taxes are under 3 dollars a year on that. It has no zoning and no > restrictions from sub-dividing it, as far as we know. We could study the > definition of the term ?property? then figure out how many separate piece > of ?property? could be created and sold per square foot. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon May 11 17:54:28 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 10:54:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00b101d627bd$37ded160$a79c7420$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >?strongly in favor of Strong Encryption only for government use so they can keep secrets from us but we can't keep secrets from them?John K Clark Presidents don?t make laws. Congress does. Aren?t you glad we have a constitution? Me too. I have figured out a way to do cryto-cryptography: we can send messages completely securely in such a way that it couldn?t be proven that it contained a secret message. I do not claim to be the first person to discover this; the notion might be over a century old. My spin on it is this: We send the recipient a few thousand digital images on a flash drive thru the post office, each with a different date stamp and time stamp. Then we have on our computer the same set of images. We post the message to the recipient with some reference to the date and time stamp of the decoder image. The secret message is encoded in the least significant bit of the images: you get it from subtracting one image from the other. The sent message looks like a perfectly normal photo, for the least-significant bits already look like random noise. The resulting message is still a haystack of random of bits, which are then decrypted with a one-time pad. Not only is it completely secure, there is no way to prove there is any message there at all. Wouldn?t that be cool? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon May 11 17:55:39 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 13:55:39 -0400 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 12:29 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Surveys show that about 30% of Americans believe that a vaccine exists > but it is being withheld, > That's nothing, in our modern era stupidity can be brought to astonishingly high levels never before dreamed of. Even if we had a COVID-19 vaccine I would not be surprised if 30% of Trump voters would refuse to take it or let their children take it because they think... no that's not the right word,,, they believe it will cause autism. John K Clark > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Mon May 11 17:56:16 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 11:56:16 -0600 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: <008401d627b4$cec03d70$6c40b850$@rainier66.com> References: <008401d627b4$cec03d70$6c40b850$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: A huge amount of American grassroots political rhetoric makes enormously more sense when you realize that a significant number of lower-income Americans actually genuinely believe that the billionaire class, collectively, has enough money to give American citizen tens of thousands of dollars, and possibly not even miss it. This was made obvious a few months ago when a newscaster overestimated Bloomberg's campaign spending (or underestimated the American population, or both) by 2 or 3 orders of magnitude, and it went unnoticed by the overwhelming majority of the media class, and their audience. If you genuinely believe that, then yes, it follows without a lot of mental gymnastics that the giga-rich /actually are/ reptilians in human skin [or may as well be] playing games with the lives of billions for profit and perverted fun. Innumeracy may be the root, if not of all evil, at least of all discontent. On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 10:56 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* [ExI] kruger dunning again > > > > >? Surveys show that about 30% of Americans believe that a vaccine exists > but it is being withheld, and that a cure for the virus exists but is being > withheld? > > > > Ja that whole narrative is being fed by the case load in China falling to > zero. I have my notion on what is causing that: they lie. If one accepts > their word on it, then we get to pick an explanation, none of which are > very plausible. Their strict lockdown is working far better than any other > countries doing similar measures (quite dubious), they have some kind of > genetic-based immunity (we know they don?t) the virus loves communists > (doubt that one) any one of a number of similarly suspect theories, or they > must have discovered a vaccine or a cure. > > > > Given all those, I suspect they are lying with their numbers. Reasoning: > even if they did discover a cure, they would still have cured cases, or if > a vaccine, they couldn?t immunize 1.4 billion people that fast. > > > > Given those choices, I see why 30% of Americans believe that a vaccine > exists, but we don?t have it here. > > > > >?Now if true these would be earth-shaking facts and Hell to pay? > > > > Indeed? What hell is China going to pay, after we already know they kept > the outbreak secret until it could spread to the whole planet? > > > > >?It make me wonder what would have happened if owning property was a > prerequisite of voting. > > > > bill w > > > > Owning property doesn?t make one smart. Evidence would be to ask > respondents if they own property, then see what percentage thinks a secret > C-19 cure exists. > > > > If owning property ever became a prerequisite for voting, oh mercy that > would be a grand opportunity to make a buttload of money. > > > > I co-own some ?property? in West Virginia with no road to it. My property > taxes are under 3 dollars a year on that. It has no zoning and no > restrictions from sub-dividing it, as far as we know. We could study the > definition of the term ?property? then figure out how many separate piece > of ?property? could be created and sold per square foot. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon May 11 18:10:28 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 11:10:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: References: <008401d627b4$cec03d70$6c40b850$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00d501d627bf$745829a0$5d087ce0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >>?Owning property doesn?t make one smart. spike >? Sure, some of them are as dumb as lint, but to own and keep owning it shows signs of intelligence - not a lot, I"ll admit bill w My WV property has no limit on the number of co-owners. The state doesn?t care, so long as it gets its property tax. We (the owners (all cousins at this point)) specifically asked if it was OK to bring on more co-owners: that was the answer. Pay the taxes and you can have as many co-owners as you want. They won?t send them all tax bills but they can still be listed as co-owners, so long as the WV government ends up with the tax money. WV is happy to collect tax revenue on property that is completely useless because it has no road to it. If anyone ever does build a road, then WV is free to assess the value of that property at whatever they want (in which case we stop paying the taxes (and the state owns it (they realize no one will do that (the land is too rugged back there (but if someone did build a road the property does become valuable (and the state would want it.))))) The family wants that property too. My great great grandfather had a homestead back there, my great grandfather and my grandmother were born there. We want to keep that. We could create co-owners in arbitrary numbers (for a profit) giving the new co-owners the right to vote and a credential on their intelligence at the same time. But keep in mind: if owning property makes one smart, then owning more property makes one more smart. Are you ready to go there? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon May 11 18:17:33 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 13:17:33 -0500 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is it true that everything that comes out of his mouth is not true, even if he did not intend to lie? Maybe not, but I would take the bet. bill w On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 1:14 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 12:29 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Surveys show that about 30% of Americans believe that a vaccine exists >> but it is being withheld, >> > > That's nothing, in our modern era stupidity can be brought to > astonishingly high levels never before dreamed of. Even if we had a COVID-1 > 9 vaccine I would not be surprised if 30% of Trump voters would refuse to > take it or let their children take it because they think... no that's not > the right word,,, they believe it will cause autism. > > John K Clark >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon May 11 18:20:36 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 13:20:36 -0500 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: followup -- do we think that he knows he is lying? Two possibilities here: one is that he knows. Fine, he is a jerk but not insane. Two - he doesn't know he is lying. Not fine. He needs to leave his brain to science. bill w On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 1:17 PM William Flynn Wallace wrote: > Is it true that everything that comes out of his mouth is not true, even > if he did not intend to lie? > Maybe not, but I would take the bet. > > bill w > > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 1:14 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 12:29 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> > Surveys show that about 30% of Americans believe that a vaccine exists >>> but it is being withheld, >>> >> >> That's nothing, in our modern era stupidity can be brought to >> astonishingly high levels never before dreamed of. Even if we had a COVID-1 >> 9 vaccine I would not be surprised if 30% of Trump voters would refuse >> to take it or let their children take it because they think... no that's >> not the right word,,, they believe it will cause autism. >> >> John K Clark >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon May 11 18:22:25 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 11:22:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00ed01d627c1$20308370$60918a50$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] kruger dunning again On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 12:29 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: > Surveys show that about 30% of Americans believe that a vaccine exists but it is being withheld, >?That's nothing>?I would not be surprised if 30% of Trump voters would refuse to take it or let their children take it because they think... no that's not the right word,,, they believe it will cause autism. John K Clark Dr. Carol Baker of Baylor College of Medicine suggests a solution Germany tried in the 1940s, mass murder: https://twitter.com/WeAreTRR/status/1255247846934224896 spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon May 11 18:24:05 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 13:24:05 -0500 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: References: <008401d627b4$cec03d70$6c40b850$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I wonder how the French felt about 1800, when they had trashed mansions. beheaded the aristocracy and so on. Were they happy then? I suspect not. There were by a large margin not enough gilt mirrors to go around to the poor. bill w On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 1:20 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > A huge amount of American grassroots political rhetoric makes enormously > more sense when you realize that a significant number of lower-income > Americans actually genuinely believe that the billionaire class, > collectively, has enough money to give American citizen tens of thousands > of dollars, and possibly not even miss it. > > This was made obvious a few months ago when a newscaster overestimated > Bloomberg's campaign spending (or underestimated the American population, > or both) by 2 or 3 orders of magnitude, and it went unnoticed by the > overwhelming majority of the media class, and their audience. > > If you genuinely believe that, then yes, it follows without a lot of > mental gymnastics that the giga-rich /actually are/ reptilians in human > skin [or may as well be] playing games with the lives of billions for > profit and perverted fun. > > Innumeracy may be the root, if not of all evil, at least of all discontent. > > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 10:56 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >> *Subject:* [ExI] kruger dunning again >> >> >> >> >? Surveys show that about 30% of Americans believe that a vaccine >> exists but it is being withheld, and that a cure for the virus exists but >> is being withheld? >> >> >> >> Ja that whole narrative is being fed by the case load in China falling to >> zero. I have my notion on what is causing that: they lie. If one accepts >> their word on it, then we get to pick an explanation, none of which are >> very plausible. Their strict lockdown is working far better than any other >> countries doing similar measures (quite dubious), they have some kind of >> genetic-based immunity (we know they don?t) the virus loves communists >> (doubt that one) any one of a number of similarly suspect theories, or they >> must have discovered a vaccine or a cure. >> >> >> >> Given all those, I suspect they are lying with their numbers. Reasoning: >> even if they did discover a cure, they would still have cured cases, or if >> a vaccine, they couldn?t immunize 1.4 billion people that fast. >> >> >> >> Given those choices, I see why 30% of Americans believe that a vaccine >> exists, but we don?t have it here. >> >> >> >> >?Now if true these would be earth-shaking facts and Hell to pay? >> >> >> >> Indeed? What hell is China going to pay, after we already know they kept >> the outbreak secret until it could spread to the whole planet? >> >> >> >> >?It make me wonder what would have happened if owning property was a >> prerequisite of voting. >> >> >> >> bill w >> >> >> >> Owning property doesn?t make one smart. Evidence would be to ask >> respondents if they own property, then see what percentage thinks a secret >> C-19 cure exists. >> >> >> >> If owning property ever became a prerequisite for voting, oh mercy that >> would be a grand opportunity to make a buttload of money. >> >> >> >> I co-own some ?property? in West Virginia with no road to it. My >> property taxes are under 3 dollars a year on that. It has no zoning and no >> restrictions from sub-dividing it, as far as we know. We could study the >> definition of the term ?property? then figure out how many separate piece >> of ?property? could be created and sold per square foot. >> >> >> >> spike >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon May 11 18:43:14 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 13:43:14 -0500 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: <00d501d627bf$745829a0$5d087ce0$@rainier66.com> References: <008401d627b4$cec03d70$6c40b850$@rainier66.com> <00d501d627bf$745829a0$5d087ce0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: if owning property makes one smart, then owning more property makes one more smart. Are you ready to go there? *spike Sure I'll go there. It isn't all IQ, as we both know. But amassing millions, or tens of millions. or billions of dollars in property, stocks, etc. takes some smarts. Positive correlation. Holding on to it if you inherited it ditto. Now if you believe that if you buy more property it will make you smarter, then I have some land very near the coast in Florida you might like.bill w* On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 1:26 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > > >>?Owning property doesn?t make one smart. spike > > > > >? Sure, some of them are as dumb as lint, but to own and keep owning it > shows signs of intelligence - not a lot, I"ll admit > > bill w > > > > My WV property has no limit on the number of co-owners. The state doesn?t > care, so long as it gets its property tax. We (the owners (all cousins at > this point)) specifically asked if it was OK to bring on more co-owners: > that was the answer. Pay the taxes and you can have as many co-owners as > you want. They won?t send them all tax bills but they can still be listed > as co-owners, so long as the WV government ends up with the tax money. > > WV is happy to collect tax revenue on property that is completely useless > because it has no road to it. If anyone ever does build a road, then WV is > free to assess the value of that property at whatever they want (in which > case we stop paying the taxes (and the state owns it (they realize no one > will do that (the land is too rugged back there (but if someone did build a > road the property does become valuable (and the state would want it.))))) > > The family wants that property too. My great great grandfather had a > homestead back there, my great grandfather and my grandmother were born > there. We want to keep that. We could create co-owners in arbitrary > numbers (for a profit) giving the new co-owners the right to vote and a > credential on their intelligence at the same time. > > But keep in mind: if owning property makes one smart, then owning more > property makes one more smart. Are you ready to go there? > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon May 11 18:57:59 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 14:57:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: References: <008401d627b4$cec03d70$6c40b850$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: They also eventually ate their own and ended up sending many of their own to the guillotine. On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 2:51 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I wonder how the French felt about 1800, when they had trashed mansions. > beheaded the aristocracy and so on. Were they happy then? I suspect not. > There were by a large margin not enough gilt mirrors to go around to the > poor. bill w > > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 1:20 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> A huge amount of American grassroots political rhetoric makes enormously >> more sense when you realize that a significant number of lower-income >> Americans actually genuinely believe that the billionaire class, >> collectively, has enough money to give American citizen tens of thousands >> of dollars, and possibly not even miss it. >> >> This was made obvious a few months ago when a newscaster overestimated >> Bloomberg's campaign spending (or underestimated the American population, >> or both) by 2 or 3 orders of magnitude, and it went unnoticed by the >> overwhelming majority of the media class, and their audience. >> >> If you genuinely believe that, then yes, it follows without a lot of >> mental gymnastics that the giga-rich /actually are/ reptilians in human >> skin [or may as well be] playing games with the lives of billions for >> profit and perverted fun. >> >> Innumeracy may be the root, if not of all evil, at least of all >> discontent. >> >> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 10:56 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >>> *Subject:* [ExI] kruger dunning again >>> >>> >>> >>> >? Surveys show that about 30% of Americans believe that a vaccine >>> exists but it is being withheld, and that a cure for the virus exists but >>> is being withheld? >>> >>> >>> >>> Ja that whole narrative is being fed by the case load in China falling >>> to zero. I have my notion on what is causing that: they lie. If one >>> accepts their word on it, then we get to pick an explanation, none of which >>> are very plausible. Their strict lockdown is working far better than any >>> other countries doing similar measures (quite dubious), they have some kind >>> of genetic-based immunity (we know they don?t) the virus loves communists >>> (doubt that one) any one of a number of similarly suspect theories, or they >>> must have discovered a vaccine or a cure. >>> >>> >>> >>> Given all those, I suspect they are lying with their numbers. >>> Reasoning: even if they did discover a cure, they would still have cured >>> cases, or if a vaccine, they couldn?t immunize 1.4 billion people that fast. >>> >>> >>> >>> Given those choices, I see why 30% of Americans believe that a vaccine >>> exists, but we don?t have it here. >>> >>> >>> >>> >?Now if true these would be earth-shaking facts and Hell to pay? >>> >>> >>> >>> Indeed? What hell is China going to pay, after we already know they >>> kept the outbreak secret until it could spread to the whole planet? >>> >>> >>> >>> >?It make me wonder what would have happened if owning property was a >>> prerequisite of voting. >>> >>> >>> >>> bill w >>> >>> >>> >>> Owning property doesn?t make one smart. Evidence would be to ask >>> respondents if they own property, then see what percentage thinks a secret >>> C-19 cure exists. >>> >>> >>> >>> If owning property ever became a prerequisite for voting, oh mercy that >>> would be a grand opportunity to make a buttload of money. >>> >>> >>> >>> I co-own some ?property? in West Virginia with no road to it. My >>> property taxes are under 3 dollars a year on that. It has no zoning and no >>> restrictions from sub-dividing it, as far as we know. We could study the >>> definition of the term ?property? then figure out how many separate piece >>> of ?property? could be created and sold per square foot. >>> >>> >>> >>> spike >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon May 11 19:02:42 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 14:02:42 -0500 Subject: [ExI] olive oil In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I use only Peanut oil and my fianc? likes deep-frying potatoes :) We also pan fry potatoes every morning and saut? vegetables every night, also use it for coating bread and bowls, etc. Personally, olive oil tastes horrible and makes me want to vomit. SR Ballard > On May 10, 2020, at 7:25 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Five gallons? Are you drinking it? bill w > >> On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 10:36 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: >> Ya that's what I was going to say as well. We use a lot in my home and that's just 2 people >> >>> On Sat, May 9, 2020, 23:13 SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >>> How does a bottle last you so long? I go through nearly 5 gallons of cooking oil per year... >>> >>> SR Ballard >>> >>>> On May 9, 2020, at 8:42 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >>>> >>>> Re-reading Samin Nosrat's wonderful cookbook, I see that extra virgin olive oil goes rancid in 12 to 14 months. What!!?? So I'll bet that most of us have a big container of it, rancid as hell. >>>> >>>> So I am going to buy small bottles of the best stuff and quit trying to save money. >>>> >>>> Truly out of sight factoid: most people like their olive oil rancid. They, and previously I, don't know to check the date of pressing and keep track of how long you've had it. >>>> >>>> I am going to buy Colavita and be done with it. >>>> >>>> Bill W >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon May 11 19:02:49 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 14:02:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: <00ed01d627c1$20308370$60918a50$@rainier66.com> References: <00ed01d627c1$20308370$60918a50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: There is a fundamental error here. Although Hitler was smart, he was also stupid. H knew he could rally the country around hating Jews, but when he did, he picked the smartest segment of the population to murder. I guess he also needed their money. (data - average American Jewish IQ = 105) bill w On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 1:45 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] kruger dunning again > > > > > > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 12:29 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > Surveys show that about 30% of Americans believe that a vaccine exists > but it is being withheld, > > > > >?That's nothing>?I would not be surprised if 30% of Trump voters would > refuse to take it or let their children take it because they think... no > that's not the right word,,, they believe it will cause autism. > > > > John K Clark > > > > > > > > > > Dr. Carol Baker of Baylor College of Medicine suggests a solution Germany > tried in the 1940s, mass murder: > > > > https://twitter.com/WeAreTRR/status/1255247846934224896 > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon May 11 19:03:42 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 14:03:42 -0500 Subject: [ExI] block calls In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A8C1FE2-35F6-4323-9983-2E9927C8CED5@gmail.com> There are phones for little kids that only take calls from approved numbers. SR Ballard > On May 10, 2020, at 5:46 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > A cousin of mine lost her ability to drive and is now in a retirement home. Husband OK. But they took away her phone because she got calls from scammers and she just cannot process the idea that they are trying to rob her. She believes all of them. > > So - is there any way at all for her to have a phone app that blocks suspicious calls? > > Taking away a car is bad enough. All old people bemoan the loss of the ability to get around the world and do things for themselves. Taking away the phone is just another terrible thing for her. > > I'll await answers. I think I know one way: put the accepted list of numbers in the phone and block all others. Can't they do that? Is that a possibility? > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon May 11 19:41:11 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 12:41:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: References: <008401d627b4$cec03d70$6c40b850$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00a401d627cc$2043bc50$60cb34f0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Darin Sunley via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] kruger dunning again >?A huge amount of American grassroots political rhetoric makes enormously more sense when you realize that a significant number of lower-income Americans actually genuinely believe that the billionaire class, collectively, has enough money to give American citizen tens of thousands of dollars, and possibly not even miss it. >?This was made obvious a few months ago when a newscaster overestimated Bloomberg's campaign spending (or underestimated the American population, or both) by 2 or 3 orders of magnitude, and it went unnoticed by the overwhelming majority of the media class, and their audience. >?If you genuinely believe that, then yes, it follows without a lot of mental gymnastics that the giga-rich /actually are/ reptilians in human skin [or may as well be] playing games with the lives of billions for profit and perverted fun. >?Innumeracy may be the root, if not of all evil, at least of all discontent? Darin Hi Darin your theory holds up, with the exception of: ? a significant number of lower-income Americans actually genuinely believe? Neither the lead anchor at NBC News Brian Williams and the NY Times editorial board member Mara Gray are lower-income Americans. It would be difficult to find people with income so low they could make this six orders of magnitude error, present it with such sincere gravitas and not realize it: https://twitter.com/i/status/1235816570602975233 They kept the joke alive, with a warning to the viewer: The following media includes potentially sensitive content. (?heeeeeeehehehehehehheheeeeeeeeee?) Oh mercy, sensitive content! Flee to safe space, immediately! These are the people responsible for shaping the news narrative. OK then. Wait, do let me retract, that is unjustified generalization. Not all news people are this dumb. Clearly these two are, and the camera crew, the lighting crew, the producers, all missed this enormous flub. We did this to ourselves, with the language. Having rhyming words for our big numbers was a mistake. The guy (don?t recall the name) who won California?s nomination to run for POTUS often conflated ?millionehs and billionehs? as if they were the same thing. These are two very different things. Google street view, Santa Clara County, there you will see enormous smeared-out residential neighborhoods, ordinary suburban dwellings, mow the lawn in ten minutes, your car stretches from the garage door to the sidewalk, just ordinary proletariat dwellings. Then go into Zillow and note that all these homes are worth over a million dollars, none of them even close to a billion. Here?s a screen shot from Sunnyvale, which isn?t even the trendy-spendy-high-endy part of the valley, just pokey little Sunnyvale. California nominated a guy who demonized them. He never had anything good to say about millionehs and billionehs. Perhaps the locals failed to realize everyone who owns any of these tightly-packed homes likely has a net worth over a million dollars. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 81716 bytes Desc: not available URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon May 11 20:07:28 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 16:07:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 2:40 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > followup -- do we think that he knows he is lying? Two possibilities > here: one is that he knows. Fine, he is a jerk but not insane. Two - he > doesn't know he is lying. Not fine. > The thing I don't get is Trump is not even a good liar, he might as well have "*I AM LYING*" tattooed on his forehead, even Trump fans knew he was lying when he said Mexico would pay for the wall but for some reason that I can't even pretend to understand they don't care, it hasn't harmed him politically. I tend to get mad at people who lie to me, especially if they don't believe I'm even worth the time to find a good lie that is not flat out ridiculous, I mean it seems to me like common courtesy to put a little effort into it, but I guess I'm just weird that way. > He needs to leave his brain to science. bill w > Do you think there is an electron microscope powerful enough to see something that small? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon May 11 20:11:26 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 15:11:26 -0500 Subject: [ExI] olive oil In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Personally, olive oil tastes horrible and makes me want to vomit. SR Ballard some things are good for sharing - others.......... bill w On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 2:18 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I use only Peanut oil and my fianc? likes deep-frying potatoes :) > > We also pan fry potatoes every morning and saut? vegetables every night, > also use it for coating bread and bowls, etc. > > Personally, olive oil tastes horrible and makes me want to vomit. > > SR Ballard > > On May 10, 2020, at 7:25 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Five gallons? Are you drinking it? bill w > > On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 10:36 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Ya that's what I was going to say as well. We use a lot in my home and >> that's just 2 people >> >> On Sat, May 9, 2020, 23:13 SR Ballard via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> How does a bottle last you so long? I go through nearly 5 gallons of >>> cooking oil per year... >>> >>> SR Ballard >>> >>> On May 9, 2020, at 8:42 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>> Re-reading Samin Nosrat's wonderful cookbook, I see that extra virgin >>> olive oil goes rancid in 12 to 14 months. What!!?? So I'll bet that most >>> of us have a big container of it, rancid as hell. >>> >>> So I am going to buy small bottles of the best stuff and quit trying to >>> save money. >>> >>> Truly out of sight factoid: most people like their olive oil rancid. >>> They, and previously I, don't know to check the date of pressing and keep >>> track of how long you've had it. >>> >>> I am going to buy Colavita and be done with it. >>> >>> Bill W >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon May 11 20:15:03 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 15:15:03 -0500 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: <00a401d627cc$2043bc50$60cb34f0$@rainier66.com> References: <008401d627b4$cec03d70$6c40b850$@rainier66.com> <00a401d627cc$2043bc50$60cb34f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Some things you hear but you don't listen to. Some things you read and have used thousands of times but don't really understand. Example: how many of you know the two words that make up the contraction 'won't'?? bill w On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 2:43 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Darin Sunley via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] kruger dunning again > > > > >?A huge amount of American grassroots political rhetoric makes enormously > more sense when you realize that a significant number of lower-income > Americans actually genuinely believe that the billionaire class, > collectively, has enough money to give American citizen tens of thousands > of dollars, and possibly not even miss it. > > > > >?This was made obvious a few months ago when a newscaster overestimated > Bloomberg's campaign spending (or underestimated the American population, > or both) by 2 or 3 orders of magnitude, and it went unnoticed by the > overwhelming majority of the media class, and their audience. > > > > >?If you genuinely believe that, then yes, it follows without a lot of > mental gymnastics that the giga-rich /actually are/ reptilians in human > skin [or may as well be] playing games with the lives of billions for > profit and perverted fun. > > > > >?Innumeracy may be the root, if not of all evil, at least of all > discontent? Darin > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Darin your theory holds up, with the exception of: > > > > ? a significant number of lower-income Americans actually genuinely > believe? > > > > Neither the lead anchor at NBC News Brian Williams and the NY Times > editorial board member Mara Gray are lower-income Americans. It would be > difficult to find people with income so low they could make this six orders > of magnitude error, present it with such sincere gravitas and not realize > it: > > > > https://twitter.com/i/status/1235816570602975233 > > > > They kept the joke alive, with a warning to the viewer: The following > media includes potentially sensitive content. > > > > (?heeeeeeehehehehehehheheeeeeeeeee?) > > > > Oh mercy, sensitive content! Flee to safe space, immediately! > > > > These are the people responsible for shaping the news narrative. OK then. > > > > Wait, do let me retract, that is unjustified generalization. Not all news > people are this dumb. Clearly these two are, and the camera crew, the > lighting crew, the producers, all missed this enormous flub. > > > > We did this to ourselves, with the language. Having rhyming words for our > big numbers was a mistake. The guy (don?t recall the name) who won > California?s nomination to run for POTUS often conflated ?millionehs and > billionehs? as if they were the same thing. These are two very different > things. Google street view, Santa Clara County, there you will see > enormous smeared-out residential neighborhoods, ordinary suburban > dwellings, mow the lawn in ten minutes, your car stretches from the garage > door to the sidewalk, just ordinary proletariat dwellings. Then go into > Zillow and note that all these homes are worth over a million dollars, none > of them even close to a billion. > > > > Here?s a screen shot from Sunnyvale, which isn?t even the > trendy-spendy-high-endy part of the valley, just pokey little Sunnyvale. > > > > > > California nominated a guy who demonized them. He never had anything good > to say about millionehs and billionehs. Perhaps the locals failed to > realize everyone who owns any of these tightly-packed homes likely has a > net worth over a million dollars. > > > > spike > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 81716 bytes Desc: not available URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon May 11 20:25:13 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 16:25:13 -0400 Subject: [ExI] olive oil In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Different strokes for different folks... I love olive oil. It's pretty much the only thing I use unless I am going to use high heat. If I'm not deep frying, I use avocado oil for high heat, otherwise peanut oil to deep fry. On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 4:17 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Personally, olive oil tastes horrible and makes me want to vomit. > > SR Ballard > some things are good for sharing - others.......... bill w > > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 2:18 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I use only Peanut oil and my fianc? likes deep-frying potatoes :) >> >> We also pan fry potatoes every morning and saut? vegetables every night, >> also use it for coating bread and bowls, etc. >> >> Personally, olive oil tastes horrible and makes me want to vomit. >> >> SR Ballard >> >> On May 10, 2020, at 7:25 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> Five gallons? Are you drinking it? bill w >> >> On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 10:36 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Ya that's what I was going to say as well. We use a lot in my home and >>> that's just 2 people >>> >>> On Sat, May 9, 2020, 23:13 SR Ballard via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> How does a bottle last you so long? I go through nearly 5 gallons of >>>> cooking oil per year... >>>> >>>> SR Ballard >>>> >>>> On May 9, 2020, at 8:42 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Re-reading Samin Nosrat's wonderful cookbook, I see that extra virgin >>>> olive oil goes rancid in 12 to 14 months. What!!?? So I'll bet that most >>>> of us have a big container of it, rancid as hell. >>>> >>>> So I am going to buy small bottles of the best stuff and quit trying to >>>> save money. >>>> >>>> Truly out of sight factoid: most people like their olive oil rancid. >>>> They, and previously I, don't know to check the date of pressing and keep >>>> track of how long you've had it. >>>> >>>> I am going to buy Colavita and be done with it. >>>> >>>> Bill W >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon May 11 20:28:44 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 16:28:44 -0400 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: References: <008401d627b4$cec03d70$6c40b850$@rainier66.com> <00a401d627cc$2043bc50$60cb34f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 4:25 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Some things you hear but you don't listen to. Some things you read and > have used thousands of times but don't really understand. Example: how > many of you know the two words that make up the contraction 'won't'?? > bill w > Will and not is it not? John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon May 11 20:49:45 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 13:49:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: <00a401d627cc$2043bc50$60cb34f0$@rainier66.com> References: <008401d627b4$cec03d70$6c40b850$@rainier66.com> <00a401d627cc$2043bc50$60cb34f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 12:43 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > California nominated a guy who demonized them. He never had anything good > to say about millionehs and billionehs. Perhaps the locals failed to > realize everyone who owns any of these tightly-packed homes likely has a > net worth over a million dollars. > How many of those homes do you think don't have mortgages, and of those how many do you think are primary residences (as opposed to investment property that is either kept vacant or rented, officially "secondary residences"/bolt holes owned by certain foreigners in case they need to flee their home country, et cetera)? In other words, how many of those do you think actually represent at least a million dollars in free and clear value for the people living in them? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon May 11 20:59:27 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 16:59:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <00b101d627bd$37ded160$a79c7420$@rainier66.com> References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <00b101d627bd$37ded160$a79c7420$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 2:06 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> Trump is strongly in favor of Strong Encryption only for government use >> so they can keep secrets from us but we can't keep secrets from them?John K >> Clark > > > *> Presidents don?t make laws. Congress does. Aren?t you glad we have a > constitution? Me too.* Spike, every time I point to something terrifying Trump has done you point to a piece of dried wood pulp and tell me not to worry because that thing will protect us from him. Have you ever seen the 1938 video of Neville Chamberlain returning from a trip to Munich and waving around a different piece of paper and claiming it would protect us from a different very bad man? Neville Chamberlain and Peace in our Time John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon May 11 21:41:45 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 14:41:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <00b101d627bd$37ded160$a79c7420$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <014501d627dc$f8444380$e8ccca80$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 2:06 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >> Trump is strongly in favor of Strong Encryption only for government use so they can keep secrets from us but we can't keep secrets from them?John K Clark > Presidents don?t make laws. Congress does. Aren?t you glad we have a constitution? Me too. Spike, every time I point to something terrifying Trump has done you point to a piece of dried wood pulp and tell me not to worry because that thing will protect us from him. Have you ever seen the 1938 video of Neville Chamberlain returning from a trip to Munich and waving around a different piece of paper and claiming it would protect us from a different very bad man? Neville Chamberlain and Peace in our Time John K Clark John, while doing an internet search for something else, I ran across an internet post by you from October 2016. You were predicting at that time all manner of horrifying futures should Trump be elected; war with Russia or other nuclear catastrophe among them. None of it happened. Up until the virus crushed economies all over the globe, we had a great run. The constitution limits the damage any one bad actor (or group of them) can do. The government?s reach is inherently and very intentionally limited, even in a crisis, as we are seeing. That dried piece of wood pulp has survived every bad politician in US history. It has survived every politician who would defeat it (which is the best definition of the term bad politician.) The anvil wears out the hammer. I am betting the constitution will live and flourish for our lifetimes and the lifetimes of those reading this message. Aren?t you glad we have a constitution? I am too. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon May 11 22:10:45 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 18:10:45 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <00b101d627bd$37ded160$a79c7420$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 5:00 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Spike, every time I point to something terrifying Trump has done you point > to a piece of dried wood pulp and tell me not to worry because that thing > will protect us from him. Have you ever seen the 1938 video of Neville > Chamberlain returning from a trip to Munich and waving around a different > piece of paper and claiming it would protect us from a different very bad > man? > > Neville Chamberlain and Peace in our Time > > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat Finally, I hit gold with confirmation of Godwin's law! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon May 11 22:12:41 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 18:12:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <001501d624a0$af98c3c0$0eca4b40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The constitution isn't all that is keeping us from totalitarianism, thank god. There is something far, far stronger, and far more manifest, immanent if you will: An extremely strong notion of conservative federalism across the nation. I mean hell, we literally call them STATES. I am left-wing but our federation is the strongest bulwark against fascism that could ever be--fifty ragtag groups of different brands of idiots who do not agree with one another. Say what you will about states' rights, but they are a hell of a defense against jingoism. On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 3:43 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 8:11 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > For Rafal, I understand, because Rafal probably has a homemade fasces >> sitting over his mantel. ;) >> > > ### I do have an SPQR badge from my time in the Legion but no fasces, > never got the promotion. And like listening to the Arditi. > > I worship the AR-15 in my Lararium. > THIS is what I am looking for in a dialectic. Thank you for playing along, Rafal. See John? People who disagree can be cordial, and even joke with one another. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon May 11 22:13:30 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 17:13:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] olive oil In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The smell of roasted hazelnut oil has to be one of the most delicious things I have ever experienced. Used mainly for drizzling. bill w On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 3:37 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Different strokes for different folks... I love olive oil. It's pretty > much the only thing I use unless I am going to use high heat. If I'm not > deep frying, I use avocado oil for high heat, otherwise peanut oil to deep > fry. > > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 4:17 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Personally, olive oil tastes horrible and makes me want to vomit. >> >> SR Ballard >> some things are good for sharing - others.......... bill w >> >> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 2:18 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> I use only Peanut oil and my fianc? likes deep-frying potatoes :) >>> >>> We also pan fry potatoes every morning and saut? vegetables every night, >>> also use it for coating bread and bowls, etc. >>> >>> Personally, olive oil tastes horrible and makes me want to vomit. >>> >>> SR Ballard >>> >>> On May 10, 2020, at 7:25 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>> Five gallons? Are you drinking it? bill w >>> >>> On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 10:36 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Ya that's what I was going to say as well. We use a lot in my home and >>>> that's just 2 people >>>> >>>> On Sat, May 9, 2020, 23:13 SR Ballard via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> How does a bottle last you so long? I go through nearly 5 gallons of >>>>> cooking oil per year... >>>>> >>>>> SR Ballard >>>>> >>>>> On May 9, 2020, at 8:42 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Re-reading Samin Nosrat's wonderful cookbook, I see that extra virgin >>>>> olive oil goes rancid in 12 to 14 months. What!!?? So I'll bet that most >>>>> of us have a big container of it, rancid as hell. >>>>> >>>>> So I am going to buy small bottles of the best stuff and quit trying >>>>> to save money. >>>>> >>>>> Truly out of sight factoid: most people like their olive oil rancid. >>>>> They, and previously I, don't know to check the date of pressing and keep >>>>> track of how long you've had it. >>>>> >>>>> I am going to buy Colavita and be done with it. >>>>> >>>>> Bill W >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon May 11 22:13:37 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 18:13:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <00b101d627bd$37ded160$a79c7420$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Oops for some reason what I typed came out as a quote. Here in non-quote form: The constitution isn't all that is keeping us from totalitarianism, thank god. There is something far, far stronger, and far more manifest, immanent if you will: An extremely strong notion of conservative federalism across the nation. I mean hell, we literally call them STATES. I am left-wing but our federation is the strongest bulwark against fascism that could ever be--fifty ragtag groups of different brands of idiots who do not agree with one another. Say what you will about states' rights, but they are a hell of a defense against jingoism. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon May 11 22:17:02 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 15:17:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] that's not true! Message-ID: <017d01d627e1$e608ce70$b21a6b50$@rainier66.com> Those of you who were at the Extro4 BioTech Futures conference at Berkeley in 1999 perhaps remember a talk about DNA editing at the cell level. At a particularly dramatic moment as the keynote speaker was giving a lecture on the topic, our own Robert Bradbury stood and shouted "THAT'S NOT TRUE!" Those two argued as the audience listened, with Robert arguing that in-vitro gene editing will someday be possible, while the keynote speaker was adamant that it would never be done. Robert was staying at my house for that event, so we had time to discuss it. I didn't understand, being a space guy, not a bio guy. Robert was arguing that this would someday be possible: https://www.healthline.com/health-news/crispr-gene-editing-used-for-the-firs t-time-inside-a-persons-body Robert has been gone over 9 yrs now. I miss him like he left us yesterday. http://www.sentientdevelopments.com/2011/03/remembering-robert-bradbury.html This is a paper that was the preliminary to a follow-on Matrioshka Brain paper he and I were working on between 2000 and about 2006. I was doing the orbit mechanics and thermo stuff, he was doing the computing stuff. http://www.gwern.net/docs/1999-bradbury-matrioshkabrains.pdf spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon May 11 22:19:48 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 17:19:48 -0500 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: References: <008401d627b4$cec03d70$6c40b850$@rainier66.com> <00a401d627cc$2043bc50$60cb34f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: It just goes to show you. I don't know where I went wrong - whether it is my memory or the original source I read many years ago. It said that 'won't derives from 'wold not'. Checking with an online etymology source https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=won%27t it shows that 'will not' is correct, though looking through that little article doesn't really tell how the 'won' part fits in. My bad. bill w On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 3:51 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 12:43 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> California nominated a guy who demonized them. He never had anything >> good to say about millionehs and billionehs. Perhaps the locals failed to >> realize everyone who owns any of these tightly-packed homes likely has a >> net worth over a million dollars. >> > > How many of those homes do you think don't have mortgages, and of those > how many do you think are primary residences (as opposed to investment > property that is either kept vacant or rented, officially "secondary > residences"/bolt holes owned by certain foreigners in case they need to > flee their home country, et cetera)? > > In other words, how many of those do you think actually represent at least > a million dollars in free and clear value for the people living in them? > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon May 11 22:43:36 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 18:43:36 -0400 Subject: [ExI] that's not true! In-Reply-To: <017d01d627e1$e608ce70$b21a6b50$@rainier66.com> References: <017d01d627e1$e608ce70$b21a6b50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Thanks for sharing this! On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 6:37 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > Those of you who were at the Extro4 BioTech Futures conference at Berkeley > in 1999 perhaps remember a talk about DNA editing at the cell level. > > > > At a particularly dramatic moment as the keynote speaker was giving a > lecture on the topic, our own Robert Bradbury stood and shouted ?THAT?S NOT > TRUE!? > > > > Those two argued as the audience listened, with Robert arguing that > in-vitro gene editing will someday be possible, while the keynote speaker > was adamant that it would never be done. > > > > Robert was staying at my house for that event, so we had time to discuss > it. I didn?t understand, being a space guy, not a bio guy. Robert was > arguing that this would someday be possible: > > > > > https://www.healthline.com/health-news/crispr-gene-editing-used-for-the-first-time-inside-a-persons-body > > > > Robert has been gone over 9 yrs now. I miss him like he left us yesterday. > > > > > http://www.sentientdevelopments.com/2011/03/remembering-robert-bradbury.html > > > > This is a paper that was the preliminary to a follow-on Matrioshka Brain > paper he and I were working on between 2000 and about 2006. I was doing > the orbit mechanics and thermo stuff, he was doing the computing stuff. > > > > http://www.gwern.net/docs/1999-bradbury-matrioshkabrains.pdf > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon May 11 23:16:56 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 16:16:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] that's not true! In-Reply-To: <017d01d627e1$e608ce70$b21a6b50$@rainier66.com> References: <017d01d627e1$e608ce70$b21a6b50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: When a distinguished, elderly person says that a certain thing that does not contravene the laws of physics will eventually be possible, said person is right, though any associated projections of exactly when (if they are not within the next 2 years) should be taken with a grain of salt. One should also keep in mind the difference between "possible" and "practical". When such a person says that a certain thing that does not contravene the laws of physics will never be possible, especially when other people are working on that very thing or its precursor capabilities, said person is usually wrong. On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 3:38 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > Those of you who were at the Extro4 BioTech Futures conference at Berkeley > in 1999 perhaps remember a talk about DNA editing at the cell level. > > > > At a particularly dramatic moment as the keynote speaker was giving a > lecture on the topic, our own Robert Bradbury stood and shouted ?THAT?S NOT > TRUE!? > > > > Those two argued as the audience listened, with Robert arguing that > in-vitro gene editing will someday be possible, while the keynote speaker > was adamant that it would never be done. > > > > Robert was staying at my house for that event, so we had time to discuss > it. I didn?t understand, being a space guy, not a bio guy. Robert was > arguing that this would someday be possible: > > > > > https://www.healthline.com/health-news/crispr-gene-editing-used-for-the-first-time-inside-a-persons-body > > > > Robert has been gone over 9 yrs now. I miss him like he left us yesterday. > > > > > http://www.sentientdevelopments.com/2011/03/remembering-robert-bradbury.html > > > > This is a paper that was the preliminary to a follow-on Matrioshka Brain > paper he and I were working on between 2000 and about 2006. I was doing > the orbit mechanics and thermo stuff, he was doing the computing stuff. > > > > http://www.gwern.net/docs/1999-bradbury-matrioshkabrains.pdf > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon May 11 23:30:37 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 16:30:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] that's not true! In-Reply-To: References: <017d01d627e1$e608ce70$b21a6b50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <01df01d627ec$2ddbe840$8993b8c0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] that's not true! >?When a distinguished, elderly person says that a certain thing that does not contravene the laws of physics will eventually be possible, said person is right, though any associated projections of exactly when (if they are not within the next 2 years) should be taken with a grain of salt. One should also keep in mind the difference between "possible" and "practical". >?When such a person says that a certain thing that does not contravene the laws of physics will never be possible, especially when other people are working on that very thing or its precursor capabilities, said person is usually wrong? Adrian Hi Adrian, were you at that conference? As I recall you are one of the guys who has hung out here a long time. The big stars at that conference were Greg Burch, Anders Sandberg and Sasha Chislenko. What a treat it was, a privilege I scarcely deserve, to bask in their presence. Sasha spoke on collaborative filtering, Anders spoke on statistical modeling and the impact of uploading, Greg spoke on the importance of near-term focus. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Mon May 11 23:55:56 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 09:55:56 +1000 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 May 2020 at 04:13, John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 12:29 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Surveys show that about 30% of Americans believe that a vaccine exists >> but it is being withheld, >> > > That's nothing, in our modern era stupidity can be brought to > astonishingly high levels never before dreamed of. Even if we had a COVID-1 > 9 vaccine I would not be surprised if 30% of Trump voters would refuse to > take it or let their children take it because they think... no that's not > the right word,,, they believe it will cause autism. > So it would then effectively be a virus that takes out dumb people. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon May 11 23:56:45 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 16:56:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] that's not true! In-Reply-To: <01df01d627ec$2ddbe840$8993b8c0$@rainier66.com> References: <017d01d627e1$e608ce70$b21a6b50$@rainier66.com> <01df01d627ec$2ddbe840$8993b8c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 4:32 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Hi Adrian, were you at that conference? As I recall you are one of the > guys who has hung out here a long time. > Back in 2008 you said this... > Adrian, we met as you recall at Extro4 in 1999 ...which suggests I was there. (My extended electronic memory is far from complete, but it remembers much that my biological memory has long since forgotten. Too bad it's not as accessible by my currently-biological-based consciousness.) But this is beside the point. There is a trap that many fall into, of thinking that only the current methods are the methods that will ever be usable, and that what is merely impractical today is actually impossible - and can never be made possible. Personally, I have escaped that trap by remaining aware of the difference, and more importantly, of what makes something impractical (or in fact impossible) today - and thus, what would need to be improved or discovered in order to make something possible and practical. That way, my predictions of impossibility or impracticality - gated on those limiting factors - remain true: even if the thing does become practical someday, the path involved finding a solution to what I said needed to be solved. (This is also quite useful in giving pointers to those stubborn and determined to make the thing practical someday; whether or not they succeed, they can at least save a lot of time and effort not repeating other peoples' mistakes. Sometimes, that stubborn and determined person turns out to be me, so I have a personal interest in this approach.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon May 11 23:58:14 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 16:58:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] elon opens Message-ID: <01ef01d627f0$0a168290$1e4387b0$@rainier66.com> California governor declared that manufacturing could re-open, but the Alameda county authority said no. Elon Musk said he was opening anyway. Did it: https://www.ktvu.com/news/parking-lot-appears-full-at-tesla-after-ceo-elon-m usk-sues-over-shelter-in-place No one was arrested. After a trade of insults, Musk threatened to take his HQ to another state. The governor and the mayor of Palo Alto are imploring Alameda county authorities to stand down forthwith. I am cheering for Musk: that Fremont factory is a 6 minute dreamy counterflow commute from here. That factory has sent our local school's average test scores and real estate values thru the roof, which causes the locals to love the guy with all our hearts, even if it is for selfish reasons. I disqualify my own attitude, because I directly benefit from that factory, and several of my neighbors drive Teslas, which lowers my power costs (explanation available on request.) Those who do not have any direct benefit from Musk's actions or the restrictions, I would be interested to hear your comments on his re-opening the factory against county orders. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue May 12 00:08:06 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 17:08:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01fb01d627f1$6a1d8750$3e5895f0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] kruger dunning again On Tue, 12 May 2020 at 04:13, John Clark via extropy-chat > wrote: On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 12:29 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: > Surveys show that about 30% of Americans believe that a vaccine exists but it is being withheld, That's nothing, in our modern era stupidity can be brought to astonishingly high levels never before dreamed of. Even if we had a COVID-19 vaccine I would not be surprised if 30% of Trump voters would refuse to take it or let their children take it because they think... no that's not the right word,,, they believe it will cause autism. So it would then effectively be a virus that takes out dumb people. -- Stathis Papaioannou John, did you mean Obama voters? "We've seen just a skyrocketing autism rate. Some people are suspicious that it's connected to the vaccines. This person included. The science right now is inconclusive, but we have to research it." --Barack Obama, Pennsylvania Rally, April 21, 2008. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue May 12 00:29:58 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 17:29:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] that's not true! In-Reply-To: References: <017d01d627e1$e608ce70$b21a6b50$@rainier66.com> <01df01d627ec$2ddbe840$8993b8c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <022b01d627f4$78293bc0$687bb340$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] that's not true! On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 4:32 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: Hi Adrian, were you at that conference? As I recall you are one of the guys who has hung out here a long time. Back in 2008 you said this... > Adrian, we met as you recall at Extro4 in 1999 ...which suggests I was there? JA! You and I had lunch with Jeff Davis and Dan (I can?t remember the last name) who was the semi-professional poker player. Wasn?t that you who was with us, as Jeff went on about his evacuated tube train idea? I vaguely remember that lunch, but not what you were into at the time. I recall you were young, about 25 at the time? I tell ya what I was into in those days: I was really going on the collective computing projects. Oh, Damien Broderick made the scene, he and I got to talking about that, in a discussion that ended up in Damien?s singularity book. Greg Burch rented a little sports car of some sort, which had four seats but the back ones were made for kids. Robert Bradbury, Greg Burch, Anders Sandberg and Mike Lorrey were staying at my house (my bride went to visit her parents that weekend.) The four of those guys crammed themselves into Burch?s tiny rented sports car and went up, I rode a motorcycle separately. After the main event where Robert that?s-not-trued the keynote speaker, there was a party on campus. If you are aware of Berkeley, the campus itself is nice enough but it is surrounded by some really scary neighborhoods. Not knowing better, I parked the bike out a ways and walked in. At the party, the K ERIC himself talked to me. I had been following Drexler like a teenage groupie girl, listening to his talks, since Engines of Creation came out. So at this party he was talking to me like I was his equal, THE K ERIC himself, and Christine Petersen. We visited until late, then when it was time to go, I said to him, Hey Eric you should loan me your cryonics bracelet. I have to walk back through a Berkeley neighborhood in my wool business suit. They might think I am a republican and kill me! He said No problem, we are heading back, we can drive you over to your bike. So not only did the K Eric treat me like an equal, he saved my life. That was my life?s high tide. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue May 12 00:55:42 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 20:55:42 -0400 Subject: [ExI] elon opens In-Reply-To: <01ef01d627f0$0a168290$1e4387b0$@rainier66.com> References: <01ef01d627f0$0a168290$1e4387b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I have no dog in the fight, and frequently think Musk is guilty of being the biggest carnival barker since P.T. Barnum but I can't help but like his boldness and SpaceX in particular. Anyways, I have been following this as well, and fully support him reopening the factory against orders, just like I supported the brave woman in Texas who reopened her salon. https://youtu.be/0zXajYDnprQ On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 8:12 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > California governor declared that manufacturing could re-open, but the > Alameda county authority said no. Elon Musk said he was opening anyway. > Did it: > > > > > https://www.ktvu.com/news/parking-lot-appears-full-at-tesla-after-ceo-elon-musk-sues-over-shelter-in-place > > > > No one was arrested. After a trade of insults, Musk threatened to take > his HQ to another state. The governor and the mayor of Palo Alto are > imploring Alameda county authorities to stand down forthwith. > > > > I am cheering for Musk: that Fremont factory is a 6 minute dreamy > counterflow commute from here. That factory has sent our local school?s > average test scores and real estate values thru the roof, which causes the > locals to love the guy with all our hearts, even if it is for selfish > reasons. > > > > I disqualify my own attitude, because I directly benefit from that > factory, and several of my neighbors drive Teslas, which lowers my power > costs (explanation available on request.) Those who do not have any direct > benefit from Musk?s actions or the restrictions, I would be interested to > hear your comments on his re-opening the factory against county orders. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue May 12 01:03:08 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 18:03:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] that's not true! In-Reply-To: <022b01d627f4$78293bc0$687bb340$@rainier66.com> References: <017d01d627e1$e608ce70$b21a6b50$@rainier66.com> <01df01d627ec$2ddbe840$8993b8c0$@rainier66.com> <022b01d627f4$78293bc0$687bb340$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 5:31 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I vaguely remember that lunch, but not what you were into at the time. I > recall you were young, about 25 at the time? > August 1999, yes? I was 24 at that time. I believe I was starting NetRendered around then, which would later become my second commercial success. (Outsourced video rendering platform - essentially, CGI-focused cloud computing before "cloud computing" was a popular term.) I tell ya what I was into in those days: I was really going on the > collective computing projects. > That may well have been what started our conversation. NetRendered might not have been nearly as grand or promising as some of those dreams, but it was real, and a step toward them. That was my life?s high tide. > Yeah, that seems to be a difference between me and most people: what high tide? I am now 45. My current project CubeCab is of greater scope, greater potential personal payoff, greater potential payoff for humanity, and so on than NetRendered was. I anticipate doing more, possibly grander projects when I am 75, then as I pass the 100 mark, and eventually when I am 150, then 200, and beyond for as long as I can. (Perhaps until the day when there are no more projects like this to be done, or I can fulfill my goals more effectively in some other capacity, or perhaps hiveminds arise and "I" merge into one.) Some of these milestones will require cryonics, uploading, or some other such measure; cryonics if nothing else, as it exists now (at least the suspension part, hopefully resulting in a form that can eventually be reanimated, uploaded, or similar). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue May 12 01:17:56 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 21:17:56 -0400 Subject: [ExI] What are everyone's life extension strategies? Message-ID: Hopefully this topic is not verboten on a list about extropianism, but I'm curious if anyone is experimenting with different pharmaceuticals or supplements for either life extension or enhancement (i.e. nootropics, etc.). Just to start the conversation, I will share my personal life extension (hopefully!) stack: Pulsed rapamycin Metformin Candesartan Low dose tadalafil nicotinamide riboside / pterostilbene Resveratrol I've also considered adding a statin although I am hesitant due to some potential side effects. I am also planning on a quarterly senolytic regime of dasatinib and quercetin, and have the drug but have not started yet. I'm personally interested in hearing about any nootropics or other enhancers people are experimenting with. I can provide more detail on why I am taking the above combo if anyone is interested. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue May 12 01:53:03 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 20:53:03 -0500 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So it would then effectively be a virus that takes out dumb people. > -- *Stathis Papaioannou* *I know of a lot of people who would want to spread that around - guess where.* * bill w* On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 6:58 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Tue, 12 May 2020 at 04:13, John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 12:29 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> > Surveys show that about 30% of Americans believe that a vaccine exists >>> but it is being withheld, >>> >> >> That's nothing, in our modern era stupidity can be brought to >> astonishingly high levels never before dreamed of. Even if we had a COVID-1 >> 9 vaccine I would not be surprised if 30% of Trump voters would refuse >> to take it or let their children take it because they think... no that's >> not the right word,,, they believe it will cause autism. >> > > So it would then effectively be a virus that takes out dumb people. > >> -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue May 12 01:56:42 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 20:56:42 -0500 Subject: [ExI] elon opens In-Reply-To: References: <01ef01d627f0$0a168290$1e4387b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: There are no reasons a car factory must stay shut. bill w On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 7:58 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I have no dog in the fight, and frequently think Musk is guilty of being > the biggest carnival barker since P.T. Barnum but I can't help but like his > boldness and SpaceX in particular. > > Anyways, I have been following this as well, and fully support him > reopening the factory against orders, just like I supported the brave woman > in Texas who reopened her salon. > > https://youtu.be/0zXajYDnprQ > > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 8:12 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> California governor declared that manufacturing could re-open, but the >> Alameda county authority said no. Elon Musk said he was opening anyway. >> Did it: >> >> >> >> >> https://www.ktvu.com/news/parking-lot-appears-full-at-tesla-after-ceo-elon-musk-sues-over-shelter-in-place >> >> >> >> No one was arrested. After a trade of insults, Musk threatened to take >> his HQ to another state. The governor and the mayor of Palo Alto are >> imploring Alameda county authorities to stand down forthwith. >> >> >> >> I am cheering for Musk: that Fremont factory is a 6 minute dreamy >> counterflow commute from here. That factory has sent our local school?s >> average test scores and real estate values thru the roof, which causes the >> locals to love the guy with all our hearts, even if it is for selfish >> reasons. >> >> >> >> I disqualify my own attitude, because I directly benefit from that >> factory, and several of my neighbors drive Teslas, which lowers my power >> costs (explanation available on request.) Those who do not have any direct >> benefit from Musk?s actions or the restrictions, I would be interested to >> hear your comments on his re-opening the factory against county orders. >> >> >> >> spike >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gsantostasi at gmail.com Tue May 12 02:17:49 2020 From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 19:17:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] olive oil In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Olive oil is one of the best foods ever. It prolonges life. Of course I'm biased being Italian. But there are reasons why Italian people are the healthiest among the industrialized countries. Olive oil is a big component of it. By the way cook like an Italian and the 12 months shelf period is not going to be a problem. You will run out of olive much sooner. And yes better to buy small batches anyway. Giovanni On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 3:25 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The smell of roasted hazelnut oil has to be one of the most delicious > things I have ever experienced. Used mainly for drizzling. bill w > > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 3:37 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Different strokes for different folks... I love olive oil. It's pretty >> much the only thing I use unless I am going to use high heat. If I'm not >> deep frying, I use avocado oil for high heat, otherwise peanut oil to deep >> fry. >> >> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 4:17 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Personally, olive oil tastes horrible and makes me want to vomit. >>> >>> SR Ballard >>> some things are good for sharing - others.......... bill w >>> >>> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 2:18 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I use only Peanut oil and my fianc? likes deep-frying potatoes :) >>>> >>>> We also pan fry potatoes every morning and saut? vegetables every >>>> night, also use it for coating bread and bowls, etc. >>>> >>>> Personally, olive oil tastes horrible and makes me want to vomit. >>>> >>>> SR Ballard >>>> >>>> On May 10, 2020, at 7:25 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Five gallons? Are you drinking it? bill w >>>> >>>> On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 10:36 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Ya that's what I was going to say as well. We use a lot in my home >>>>> and that's just 2 people >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, May 9, 2020, 23:13 SR Ballard via extropy-chat < >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> How does a bottle last you so long? I go through nearly 5 gallons of >>>>>> cooking oil per year... >>>>>> >>>>>> SR Ballard >>>>>> >>>>>> On May 9, 2020, at 8:42 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Re-reading Samin Nosrat's wonderful cookbook, I see that extra virgin >>>>>> olive oil goes rancid in 12 to 14 months. What!!?? So I'll bet that most >>>>>> of us have a big container of it, rancid as hell. >>>>>> >>>>>> So I am going to buy small bottles of the best stuff and quit trying >>>>>> to save money. >>>>>> >>>>>> Truly out of sight factoid: most people like their olive oil >>>>>> rancid. They, and previously I, don't know to check the date of pressing >>>>>> and keep track of how long you've had it. >>>>>> >>>>>> I am going to buy Colavita and be done with it. >>>>>> >>>>>> Bill W >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Tue May 12 03:17:54 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 20:17:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Stego was Re: Even India and Haiti do it better Message-ID: wrote: snip > I have figured out a way to do cryto-cryptography: we can send messages completely securely in such a way that it couldn?t be proven that it contained a secret message. I do not claim to be the first person to discover this; the notion might be over a century old. My spin on it is this: snip > Wouldn?t that be cool? "Been done, the program name is Stego, open-source, the author is Romana Machado, one of the few female Extropians and famous in her own right. One of Romana's Exclave parties was where (in a conversation with Kennita Watson) I made the conceptual jump for the paper "Sex, Drugs, and Cults." Keith From brent.allsop at gmail.com Tue May 12 03:30:12 2020 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 21:30:12 -0600 Subject: [ExI] What are everyone's life extension strategies? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good Question. I'm in no way an expert at any of this, so I just trust the experts at Thrivous, and take both of these stacks: https://thrivous.com/products/nootropic-stack https://thrivous.com/products/geroprotector-stack Is there anything I'm missing with these? On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 7:19 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Hopefully this topic is not verboten on a list about extropianism, but I'm > curious if anyone is experimenting with different pharmaceuticals or > supplements for either life extension or enhancement (i.e. nootropics, > etc.). > > Just to start the conversation, I will share my personal life extension > (hopefully!) stack: > > Pulsed rapamycin > Metformin > Candesartan > Low dose tadalafil > nicotinamide riboside / pterostilbene > Resveratrol > > I've also considered adding a statin although I am hesitant due to some > potential side effects. > > I am also planning on a quarterly senolytic regime of dasatinib and > quercetin, and have the drug but have not started yet. > > I'm personally interested in hearing about any nootropics or other > enhancers people are experimenting with. > > I can provide more detail on why I am taking the above combo if anyone is > interested. > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Tue May 12 05:00:59 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 22:00:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again Message-ID: John Clark wrote: > The thing I don't get is Trump is not even a good liar, he might as well have "*I AM LYING*" tattooed on his forehead, even Trump fans knew he was lying when he said Mexico would pay for the wall > but for some reason that I can't even pretend to understand they don't care, it hasn't harmed him politically. John, you are seeing humans in their stressed-out mode. They pass around xenophobic memes and are attracted to irrational leaders. That sounds like a really bad way to get your genes into the next generation, but when you analyze it, it turns out that following irrational leaders made your genes more likely to get into the next generation (in some circumstances). Stressed out people are dangerous. If you don't want to consider the current POTUS, then look into the history of Germany. Speaking of nutty memes, in the UK they have a problem of people who hold the meme that 5G cell phone towers are causing COVID-19. At least that has not happened here, at least I have not heard about it yet. Keith From atymes at gmail.com Tue May 12 06:06:41 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 23:06:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 10:03 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Speaking of nutty memes, in the UK they have a problem of people who > hold the meme that 5G cell phone towers are causing COVID-19. At > least that has not happened here, at least I have not heard about it > yet. > I've heard people asking about it in the US. They were quickly dissuaded, though - almost like plants trying to come up with ways to sow discord, and being weak at it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Tue May 12 07:33:36 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 08:33:36 +0100 Subject: [ExI] that's not true! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/05/2020 23:20, Spike wrote: > > Those of you who were at the Extro4 BioTech Futures conference at > Berkeley in 1999 perhaps remember a talk about DNA editing at the cell > level. > > At a particularly dramatic moment as the keynote speaker was giving a > lecture on the topic, our own Robert Bradbury stood and shouted > ?THAT?S NOT TRUE!? > > Those two argued as the audience listened, with Robert arguing that > in-vitro gene editing will someday be possible > "in-vivo", not "in-vitro". In-vitro means 'in glass' (i.e. petri dishes, etc.) -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Tue May 12 07:56:14 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 09:56:14 +0200 Subject: [ExI] that's not true! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Interesting. Perhaps Robert was arguing against the idea that NOT EVEN in-vitro gene editing would never be possible? On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 9:35 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > > On 11/05/2020 23:20, Spike wrote: > > Those of you who were at the Extro4 BioTech Futures conference at Berkeley in 1999 perhaps remember a talk about DNA editing at the cell level. > > > > At a particularly dramatic moment as the keynote speaker was giving a lecture on the topic, our own Robert Bradbury stood and shouted ?THAT?S NOT TRUE!? > > > > Those two argued as the audience listened, with Robert arguing that in-vitro gene editing will someday be possible > > > "in-vivo", not "in-vitro". > > In-vitro means 'in glass' (i.e. petri dishes, etc.) > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue May 12 12:30:57 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 08:30:57 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <014501d627dc$f8444380$e8ccca80$@rainier66.com> References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <00b101d627bd$37ded160$a79c7420$@rainier66.com> <014501d627dc$f8444380$e8ccca80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 5:44 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *Up until the virus crushed economies all over the globe, we had a > great run.* > Great run? The wealth gap between rich and poor is accelerating worse than ever, and even before the virus Obama grew the economy faster than Trump did, and Obama inherited the second worst economic situation in the last hundred years.... well third worst now: US Economic Growth And yes after the virus came the GDP would decline under any president, but Trump's bungling made it far worse. In the first quarter the GDP of South Korea declined by 1.4%, in the USA it declined by 4.8%. And today the unemployment rate in the USA is 14.7%, in South Korea It's 3.8%. And both countries reported their first case of COVID-19 on the same day. And even before the virus Trump increased the national debt that you're so worried about much faster than Obama did. Change in debt *> The constitution limits the damage any one bad actor (or group of them) > can do. * > You're so confident that little piece of paper can protect you from anything that you won't even lift a finger to prevent the bad actor from gaining power in the first place, such as by putting a checkmark on your ballot next to a presidential candidate that actually has a fighting chance of beating the bad actor, instead you go for Mr. Nobody from the Very Silly Party that will be completely forgotten by history 10 minutes after the polls close. > *> Aren?t you glad we have a constitution? * > I'd have no worries whatsoever if it was as difficult to violate the constitution as it is to violate the Second Law Of Thermodynamics, but that is not the case. The constitution is not the divine word of God either, it is the end result of a series of compromises made by a bunch of very fallible human beings. And the Constitution means what the Supreme Court says it means, and the Supreme Court is full of Trump flunkies. Trump promised in 2016 that he would make his tax returns public, but he did what he always does, he lied. Trump wants to keep his tax returns secret so badly that he took the case all the way to the supreme court and they will be hearing arguments about it today, but I think there is little chance the court will do the right thing and let the American people see those damming tax returns, at least not before the election. I hope I'm wrong. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue May 12 12:44:33 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 08:44:33 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <00b101d627bd$37ded160$a79c7420$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 6:14 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *Finally, I hit gold with confirmation of Godwin's law! * > In my humble opinion Godwin's law would be on the list of the 10 dumbest things you can find on the internet, I'm not saying it would necessarily be #1 but it would be on that list. And somewhere on the list of 10 smartest things would be "*Those that do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it*". John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue May 12 12:48:04 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 08:48:04 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <00b101d627bd$37ded160$a79c7420$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I certainly agree with you that Hitler references are one of the dumbest things people do on the internet! On Tue, May 12, 2020, 8:46 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 6:14 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *Finally, I hit gold with confirmation of Godwin's law! * >> > > In my humble opinion Godwin's law would be on the list of the 10 dumbest > things you can find on the internet, I'm not saying it would necessarily be > #1 but it would be on that list. And somewhere on the list of 10 smartest > things would be "*Those that do not learn from history are condemned to > repeat it*". > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue May 12 12:56:49 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 08:56:49 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <00b101d627bd$37ded160$a79c7420$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 8:53 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *> Hitler references are one of the dumbest things people do on the > internet!* > So we should pretend that the man never existed? John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue May 12 13:32:41 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 09:32:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <00b101d627bd$37ded160$a79c7420$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I think you know that is not what I am saying, but comparing Trump to Hitler is hyperbole and unhelpful in fostering a meaningful discussion. On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 8:58 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 8:53 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >> *> Hitler references are one of the dumbest things people do on the >> internet!* >> > > So we should pretend that the man never existed? > > John K Clark > > > >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Tue May 12 14:16:42 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 10:16:42 -0400 Subject: [ExI] What are everyone's life extension strategies? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My strategy is more lifestyle-oriented: - eating well - staying active - avoiding stress - getting enough sleep - enjoying life without taking unnecessary risks - avoiding COVID by isolating, working from home - challenging myself with learning new skills and being creative -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue May 12 14:49:18 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 07:49:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] that's not true! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <009a01d6286c$844e6ec0$8ceb4c40$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2020 12:34 AM To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Cc: Ben Zaiboc Subject: Re: [ExI] that's not true! On 11/05/2020 23:20, Spike wrote: Those of you who were at the Extro4 BioTech Futures conference at Berkeley in 1999 perhaps remember a talk about DNA editing at the cell level. At a particularly dramatic moment as the keynote speaker was giving a lecture on the topic, our own Robert Bradbury stood and shouted "THAT'S NOT TRUE!" Those two argued as the audience listened, with Robert arguing that in-vitro gene editing will someday be possible "in-vivo", not "in-vitro". In-vitro means 'in glass' (i.e. petri dishes, etc.) -- Ben Zaiboc Ja thanks Ben. Robert's notion is that we would figure out a way to do CRISPR (didn't have that name yet) in the body using some sort of nanotech or a virus or some other means he was always dreaming up. Had he lived, he would be doing back flips. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Tue May 12 14:49:21 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 09:49:21 -0500 Subject: [ExI] olive oil In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am sure that, like Kale or Natto, many gross things are very good for me. SR Ballard > On May 11, 2020, at 9:17 PM, Giovanni Santostasi via extropy-chat wrote: > > Olive oil is one of the best foods ever. > It prolonges life. > Of course I'm biased being Italian. > But there are reasons why Italian people are the healthiest among the industrialized countries. > Olive oil is a big component of it. > By the way cook like an Italian and the 12 months shelf period is not going to be a problem. > You will run out of olive much sooner. > And yes better to buy small batches anyway. > > Giovanni > > > > >> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 3:25 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >> The smell of roasted hazelnut oil has to be one of the most delicious things I have ever experienced. Used mainly for drizzling. bill w >> >>> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 3:37 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: >>> Different strokes for different folks... I love olive oil. It's pretty much the only thing I use unless I am going to use high heat. If I'm not deep frying, I use avocado oil for high heat, otherwise peanut oil to deep fry. >>> >>>> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 4:17 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >>>> Personally, olive oil tastes horrible and makes me want to vomit. >>>> >>>> SR Ballard >>>> some things are good for sharing - others.......... bill w >>>> >>>>> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 2:18 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >>>>> I use only Peanut oil and my fianc? likes deep-frying potatoes :) >>>>> >>>>> We also pan fry potatoes every morning and saut? vegetables every night, also use it for coating bread and bowls, etc. >>>>> >>>>> Personally, olive oil tastes horrible and makes me want to vomit. >>>>> >>>>> SR Ballard >>>>> >>>>>> On May 10, 2020, at 7:25 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Five gallons? Are you drinking it? bill w >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 10:36 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: >>>>>>> Ya that's what I was going to say as well. We use a lot in my home and that's just 2 people >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, May 9, 2020, 23:13 SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >>>>>>>> How does a bottle last you so long? I go through nearly 5 gallons of cooking oil per year... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> SR Ballard >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On May 9, 2020, at 8:42 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Re-reading Samin Nosrat's wonderful cookbook, I see that extra virgin olive oil goes rancid in 12 to 14 months. What!!?? So I'll bet that most of us have a big container of it, rancid as hell. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So I am going to buy small bottles of the best stuff and quit trying to save money. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Truly out of sight factoid: most people like their olive oil rancid. They, and previously I, don't know to check the date of pressing and keep track of how long you've had it. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I am going to buy Colavita and be done with it. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Bill W >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue May 12 16:23:26 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 11:23:26 -0500 Subject: [ExI] What are everyone's life extension strategies? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I will join with you. Here is a list of what I take for thyroid cancer, borderline diabetes, osteoarthritis, back pain, and peripheral neuropathy (nothing works for just craziness). I too will share what I take them for if requested. naproxen sodium, turmeric, alpha lipoic acid, Xanax, zinc, B complex, C, SAM e, magnesium, benfotiamine, D3, optimized folate, butyric acid, docusate, metformin These keep me alive. How do I know that? I am alive. QED viz. Descartes bill w On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 8:20 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Hopefully this topic is not verboten on a list about extropianism, but I'm > curious if anyone is experimenting with different pharmaceuticals or > supplements for either life extension or enhancement (i.e. nootropics, > etc.). > > Just to start the conversation, I will share my personal life extension > (hopefully!) stack: > > Pulsed rapamycin > Metformin > Candesartan > Low dose tadalafil > nicotinamide riboside / pterostilbene > Resveratrol > > I've also considered adding a statin although I am hesitant due to some > potential side effects. > > I am also planning on a quarterly senolytic regime of dasatinib and > quercetin, and have the drug but have not started yet. > > I'm personally interested in hearing about any nootropics or other > enhancers people are experimenting with. > > I can provide more detail on why I am taking the above combo if anyone is > interested. > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue May 12 16:29:58 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 09:29:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <00b101d627bd$37ded160$a79c7420$@rainier66.com> <014501d627dc$f8444380$e8ccca80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <016e01d6287a$94a4ae70$bdee0b50$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat ? >?You're so confident that little piece of paper can protect you from anything? It uses a similar line of reasoning to the notion that the US can continue to run enormous deficits forever: we have been doing it since 1835 and it hasn?t caused any collapse. The Constitution has been protecting Americans since 1789 and hasn?t caused any collapse. I am betting on the constitution surviving the coming financial catastrophe. >?that you won't even lift a finger to prevent the bad actor from gaining power in the first place? I lifted a finger: I voted libertarian. But I live in a free state: party doesn?t matter here. We already know which party will win by a landslide. If it is close enough for a Californian?s vote to matter, the election is not close enough for a Californian?s vote to matter. All those who live in free states should vote for their ideological favorites. This strengthens those parties and sends a message to the mainstreamers: we matter. John you like to go on about how unfair it is that a person from Wyoming?s vote is worth 53 times as much, but Wyoming is also a free state: their votes don?t matter either. If it is close in Wyoming, it isn?t close. The votes that really matter are those from Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania, the big swingers. Those big swing states really decide. Is it fair that their votes count when the others really don?t? Well, that?s what the constitution demands, and the constitution is good, so it must be good. Of course you could argue that the fault is in states for making their states winner-take-all to the Electoral College. If they split their delegates, Florida wouldn?t be such a huge prize. The 2000 election would have gone the other way. However? the winner-take-all policy is not in the constitution and is not controlled at a federal level. That is a state level decision. So? move to Florida and convince them to split their EC delegates, as Maine and Nebraska already do, making both those states nearly irrelevant. >? such as by putting a checkmark on your ballot next to a presidential candidate that actually has a fighting chance of beating the bad actor? OK, so imagine this: the current front runner of the mainstream opposition party (can?t recall the name of it (or his name)) gets nominated, his condition gets worse, debate, he is asked what he will do about the budget deficit, he starts going on about how he will do this or that if elected to represent Delaware in the senate, then on to a rambling commentary about Corn Pop and children rubbing his leg hairs and so on, then suddenly the screen goes dark and there are some technical difficulties. His staff cancels all remaining speaking appointments, but it is clear enough what is going on. Now his chances of being elected are worse than the third party candidates. He will get trounced; by your reasoning it is not justifiable to vote for him. I do not buy this line of reasoning. OK in that scenario, now we have this bad actor and whoever the Libertarians nominate next month, and whoever the Greens nominate in two months, plus a handful of lesser-known party?s candidates. >? instead you go for Mr. Nobody from the Very Silly Party that will be completely forgotten by history 10 minutes after the polls close? Libertarians spanned the gap in enough states that they could have swung the election. Neither of the mainstream candidates so much as tossed us a bone. The fiscal conservatives alone could have swung that election, yet neither mainstream candidate even talked about the deficit. Too bad for the mainstream candidates. > Aren?t you glad we have a constitution? >?I'd have no worries whatsoever if it was as difficult to violate the constitution as it is to violate the Second Law Of Thermodynamics, but that is not the case? John K Clark OK so have no worries whatsoever. When it comes to seizing power, the constitution is harder to violate than the second law, which is why it has never been done, even though nearly everyone at that level of power would have cheerfully done so. I am betting on the constitution. The anvil wears out the hammers. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Tue May 12 16:34:38 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 12:34:38 -0400 Subject: [ExI] What are everyone's life extension strategies? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 12:26 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > These keep me alive. How do I know that? I am alive. > The fact that you're alive proves only that they haven't killed you yet. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue May 12 16:47:25 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 11:47:25 -0500 Subject: [ExI] What are everyone's life extension strategies? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The fact that you're alive proves only tha