From danust2012 at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 00:00:10 2020
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2020 00:00:10 +0000
Subject: [ExI] nursing homes again
In-Reply-To: <017701d6afdf$70745bd0$515d1370$@rainier66.com>
References: <010201d6afd2$709f0130$51dd0390$@rainier66.com>
 <CACB7g25fUATs-mmC0dVoYVqi4xSH8R5sg7ZjzyY1K5dXFLiSAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <017701d6afdf$70745bd0$515d1370$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CACB7g25+B8MEfRqZJ5ywzgOe-ied5FKXgwNW9SCFEMP1JFWvUg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Oct 31, 2020 at 11:43 PM spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat
>
> >...
> >... but if it works this way in Santa Clara I don?t see why it would be different elsewhere.
>
> >...A problem I believe might be is how typical is Santa Clara county overall?
>
> Well, hard to say, but Santa Clara county is mostly suburban and some urban.
> It has about 2 million people, about half of whom live in San Jose, then includes
> the less-tightly-packed city of Santa Clara, the cities of Mountain View, Palo Alto,
> the rich bitches on the upper west side of the valley, some smaller contiguous
> suburban towns down along 101 which are agricultural, then some unpopulated
> county-owned and park areas up in the mountains.
>
> It looks like the next county to the north which does not report by nursing home
> vs non-homer.  It is less tightly packed than Los Angeles county.

You'd have to look at other counties -- even ones across the country
to see how typical or not this is. I brought this up partly because in
a college stats course, one of extended examples used was looking at a
statistically typical county to draw conclusions about one crime:
murders. They choose a county based on a number of traits that was
average for US counties. I think it was Buffalo, NY. And they went
over all kinds of things that made it typical -- population, racial
makeup, income spread, etc. Lots of boring data stuff. Then went on to
look at crimes there and murders, then reapplied this across the
nation to show how other counties deviated and to look for
correlations. Kind of made me wonder how typical Santa Clara is. I
kind of think it isn't.

> >...I'm only arm-waving here, but that's what you asked for. :)  Regards, Dan
>
> Ja thanks, I don't know Dan.
>
> I would think we could find another county somewhere reporting this way,
> homer vs not.  Unless I can find a reason to assume otherwise, I must suspect
> nearly about half of the covid fatalities nationwide and perhaps worldwide are
> in nursing homes.  I don't know that this insight leads to any viable remedial actions.

But that's not as Bill K pointed out strange: people in a high risk
group living in close proximity dying from the very disease they're at
risk for getting and dying from. The shocker would be there's a county
or region with fantastically low COVID-19 cases or deaths in nursing
homes and yet the folks outside the nursing homes had fantastically
high cases or deaths. That would be the anomaly worth looking into --
provided it's not like a county with population 50 and the nursing
home has only 2 residents who've been in lockdown before the crisis.
That would almost certainly be a fluke. Not a flounder, but a fluke.
:)

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst


From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Nov  1 03:23:54 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2020 20:23:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] more data coming
Message-ID: <000001d6affe$6da74100$48f5c300$@rainier66.com>


We will have another covid data set coming soon: Britain is going into
lockdown again for the month of November.

spike




From ben at zaiboc.net  Sun Nov  1 10:39:06 2020
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2020 10:39:06 +0000
Subject: [ExI] what did we learn?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.47.1604177305.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.47.1604177305.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <15cbea90-5229-36fb-1662-117866c64520@zaiboc.net>


Here's an idea I'm just throwing out for consideration. I'm not saying 
it's true, or that I believe it, but it's not something I've heard 
anyone else say. Maybe it's nonsense, maybe not:

COVID-19 isn't really what's causing our current woes, the internet is.

I'm wondering what things would have been like without the internet, and 
the massive interconnectedness it has brought, all the news, social 
media, instant access to data from all over the world, and instant 
reaction to it.

Certainly, this wouldn't have had any effect on the number of people 
who've died (or if so, maybe more people would have died), but would 
there have been a world-wide panic about it? Would economies have 
suffered such massive damage? Would people be worrying themselves sick 
about it, and dying from not getting treated for other problems?

This virus is not massively lethal, it seems to be comparable to the 
flu. It's certainly not on the level of ebola or rabies. It is pretty 
contagious, though. So there's really nothing at all we can do, on a 
long-term basis, about it spreading all over the globe. And killing a 
small percentage of the people it infects, like so many other diseases.

So I'm wondering how many times something like this has happened in the 
pre-internet past, and we've hardly noticed it?

It seems that there won't be much, if any, evolutionary pressure for 
COVID-19 to evolve into something less lethal, simply because it's not 
that lethal to begin with.

When we compare the death rate of this virus with all the other causes 
of death we deal with all the time, is the reaction really justified? Is 
it really a massive internet-fuelled overreaction?

Maybe one of the lessons to be learned has nothing to do with infectious 
diseases, and everything to do with how we let the internet change our 
lives.

Just to reiterate, I'm not saying this is my opinion, it's just an 
interesting (I reckon) point of view, for discussion.

Please discuss.


-- 
Ben Zaiboc


From ben at zaiboc.net  Sun Nov  1 10:55:04 2020
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2020 10:55:04 +0000
Subject: [ExI] owwwww, dang
In-Reply-To: <mailman.55.1604182157.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.55.1604182157.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <c2df115a-f016-bfde-78d8-22c5746cc421@zaiboc.net>

On 31/10/2020 22:09, ExiMod wrote:
> Regrettably I have had to place John Clark on moderation as he cannot 
> be trusted to post sensibly to Exi-chat.
> This will apply at least until after the election next week.
> John can still read Exi-chat, but his posts will be queued awaiting 
> approval before posting.
> Delays will be unpredictable, depending on other commitments.
>
> Note: This does not apply to Extropolis, where there are no restrictions.
>
> ExiMod

I have to express my objection to this, as John's post (that apparently 
triggered this) was not about american politics, it was about the 
running of the Exi-Chat list. If that sort of post is to be moderated, 
we are in a bad place indeed. Yes, I know this is not a democracy, but 
I'm sure we've all heard the expression 'Chilling effects', and don't 
want it to be something that occurs here.

I'm one of the non-americans who get pissed off at the excessive 
american politics that has dominated this list in the past at certain 
times, but I don't see John's comments about the moderation of the list 
as falling under that heading.

-- 
Ben Zaiboc


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 14:23:50 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2020 08:23:50 -0600
Subject: [ExI] owwwww, dang
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNR1fWNQUdcX4efNvxuZWEHQckuCpPjiuF6o9p1CSEBGoA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000e01d6af20$0f75a1f0$2e60e5d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv3S0qfxxbfthbf_aPUE=cPokjkvc51S9UheCLx6H=r0OQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRYerqOpWf-TDAbvtSnTX8hacSoFh81-Ku-+T-Lb3FCnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ElmX1i8E75TRfiPxW_gvIs58tBO7Bvi1cPFT3yGZoIousi2ImytPiMpoJ6b11TWjjPjKFbyG6F79sHiANoPk7lHWQfRGwiFhiNYtskdjQac=@protonmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3duSUWX_mRLc8r4d1SAo56bo+zZ4k5LT9y_r3NCgdJgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrqPH_jQZSgxPWTya+0KTRPuyHbaikP8G5H=aTu4OQJ7VdN7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbrxNdfS60jb61G31dE15WhHo=pwQkGCUDot7dN4W4XEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2_pCXRYxiTz=1BodnZUtvAB4pSNKhThazD4Wm_1B5esA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNR6GNgd0Wdk9rwbmc8t8+x1y_vsGLr+gVc-BFdNU+-fMg@mail.gmail.com>
 <SeYYP3aXL4EvRIJRmzsTk9vECtDgxj-vu-_oevxukf4x2EPmIsENeWU-_8D0VWr7hexFcL558ql8z5Go11CkMl3WomkhDTgGvxQwyyEhFZg=@protonmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEb_1P1QcKAn7=Aoe2tsM-XpRwhc_2ZpWBCW5qXjjUN8Gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNR1fWNQUdcX4efNvxuZWEHQckuCpPjiuF6o9p1CSEBGoA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYagoh0U9XmXsPV4+03xqtP8SwEOHntnCgp5HR8Z=9XEg@mail.gmail.com>

Adrian, I have been up and down this bunch of posts, including both of the
moderator's and cannot find one that quotes what John is being moderated
for.  Please send me the one that does that.  thanks!   bill w

On Sat, Oct 31, 2020 at 4:31 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> 3:48 in which time zone?  I believe ExiMod clearly showed, via quoting,
> the post of John's that put John over the line.
>
> On Sat, Oct 31, 2020 at 2:17 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Unless there was a post by John after my post of 3:48 that was
>> unacceptable, I object to his being put on moderation.  Issues about
>> politics belong on the Extropian list as we agreed.  But issues about
>> moderation itself should be acceptable anywhere.  I wish to be informed if
>> his error was a post after mine of 3:48.  I am not asking for its content.
>> But I do think that the content should be shown to everyone so that we know
>> why he was blacklisted for a time.  I think this should have been
>> established from the beginning of the Extropian list.  Group?
>>
>> bill w
>>
>> bill w
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 31, 2020 at 4:01 PM ExiMod via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Regrettably I have had to place John Clark on moderation as he cannot be
>>> trusted to post sensibly to Exi-chat.
>>> This will apply at least until after the election next week.
>>> John can still read Exi-chat, but his posts will be queued awaiting
>>> approval before posting.
>>> Delays will be unpredictable, depending on other commitments.
>>>
>>> Note: This does not apply to Extropolis, where there are no restrictions.
>>>
>>> ExiMod
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent with ProtonMail <https://protonmail.com> Secure Email.
>>>
>>> ??????? Original Message ???????
>>> On Saturday, 31 October 2020 20:18, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sat, Oct 31, 2020 at 1:17 PM John Clark via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, Oct 31, 2020 at 3:32 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> >  A list was created to talk politics and other controversial topics
>>>>> on.   I see no downside to that.  If you do, what is it?  The list was
>>>>> created with the idea in mind not to drive nonAmericans away from the list
>>>>> by including all the politics stuff.  Great idea, I say.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Should we create another list just to talk about classical music and
>>>> its use in movies? Or do you feel that is an important and a
>>>> inherently Extropian matter while deciding in 3 days who should have
>>>> the nuclear launch codes to control the largest military on planet earth is
>>>> not important or Extropian?
>>>>
>>>
>>> ExiMod, save us from more of this please!
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201101/490d34c6/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Nov  1 15:46:41 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2020 07:46:41 -0800
Subject: [ExI] what did we learn?
In-Reply-To: <15cbea90-5229-36fb-1662-117866c64520@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.47.1604177305.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <15cbea90-5229-36fb-1662-117866c64520@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <008701d6b066$31da2120$958e6360$@rainier66.com>



...> On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] what did we learn?


>...Here's an idea I'm just throwing out for consideration...:

>...COVID-19 isn't really what's causing our current woes, the internet is.

>...Maybe one of the lessons to be learned has nothing to do with infectious
diseases, and everything to do with how we let the internet change our
lives.

>...Just to reiterate, I'm not saying this is my opinion...
--
Ben Zaiboc

_______________________________________________


Ben there is no need to soften it or apologize, this is a perfectly valid
theory.  Is has been clear to me for some time that the internet does
amplify some things, because people click on it.  Consider news of the
weird.  I have liked that stuff for decades.  Our local newspaper (the
actual literal woodpulp product from the olden days) used to carry a weekly
column, then it went to thrice weekly, then a daily feature, and was one of
my favorite comics: weird stuff is funny.

Now... there is soooo much news of the weird, even a dedicated fan just
can't keep up.  I don't think weirdness has come into fashion or is more
common, it is just more accessible.  With the ability to post it free and
measure the popularity by number of clicks (by revenue) the publisher gets
to see what sells.

Look at the impact this has had on news in general.  It seems like most if
it has become celebrities, sports and politics (translation: more news of
the weird than anything else.)  Some fall for it and start to think our
world today is about celebrities, sports and politics (news of the weird)
but it really isn't at all.  One would think the big city riots are what is
going on, but it really isn't.  Those are happening, but that isn't what is
happening in our world today.  We amplify it with the medium.

Ben don't soften it: the internet is changing our lives, almost entirely for
the better if one knows how to extract useful information.  If we allow the
internet to inject a lot of nonsense, news of the weird, amplify the very
localized riots and civil unrest, exaggerate the importance of sports and
celebrities, then we do ourselves harm with the internet.

spike 


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 16:11:42 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2020 10:11:42 -0600
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYwURcKM1L1y27D=OfW-5B8AjQSaGaYjQUJD8FMsxG0YA@mail.gmail.com>

"Reading is thinking with another person's mind; it forces you to stretch
your own."

Charles Scribner, Jr.

bill w
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201101/90fb37f5/attachment.htm>

From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 16:12:22 2020
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2020 08:12:22 -0800
Subject: [ExI] owwwww, dang
In-Reply-To: <c2df115a-f016-bfde-78d8-22c5746cc421@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.55.1604182157.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <c2df115a-f016-bfde-78d8-22c5746cc421@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRi7h318u12qUsxb0=XmkvF65F6C0FE1nM=--F9uS+cZg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 1, 2020 at 2:56 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On 31/10/2020 22:09, ExiMod wrote:
> > Regrettably I have had to place John Clark on moderation as he cannot
> > be trusted to post sensibly to Exi-chat.
> > This will apply at least until after the election next week.
> > John can still read Exi-chat, but his posts will be queued awaiting
> > approval before posting.
> > Delays will be unpredictable, depending on other commitments.
> >
> > Note: This does not apply to Extropolis, where there are no restrictions.
> >
> > ExiMod
>
> I have to express my objection to this, as John's post (that apparently
> triggered this) was not about american politics, it was about the
> running of the Exi-Chat list.


No, it was about American politics too.

It contained a reminder that the US President controls the American nuclear
launch codes, a point John has hammered repeatedly to underscore the
urgency and importance of removing Trump from office - implying shame upon
anyone who does not give their every waking moment and all their wealth to
defeating Trump (and thus preventing Trump from initiating a nuclear war),
which was part of the original reason to move politics chat to another list.

As often, XKCD has a strip about this sort of fallacy:
https://xkcd.com/2368/ .  The alt-text/mouseover-text is
particularly relevant here.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201101/7fb1a9a5/attachment.htm>

From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 16:28:09 2020
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2020 08:28:09 -0800
Subject: [ExI] what did we learn?
In-Reply-To: <15cbea90-5229-36fb-1662-117866c64520@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.47.1604177305.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <15cbea90-5229-36fb-1662-117866c64520@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNR=e1Ny3JuUi+EyRoBFMu1KN=4hj1NWLRc6EMtOR9j7zw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 1, 2020 at 2:40 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> would
> there have been a world-wide panic about it?


Yes.  Newspapers, radio, and TV would have conveyed the panic just the same.


> Would economies have
> suffered such massive damage?


Yes.  This came from reactions - government and individual - to the news,
which again would have been communicated just the same.


> Would people be worrying themselves sick
> about it, and dying from not getting treated for other problems?
>

Yes and yes.

Evidence: reactions to the Spanish flu, a comparable epidemic from before
the Internet.
https://www.stlouisfed.org/~/media/files/pdfs/community-development/research-reports/pandemic_flu_report.pdf
for example.  To quote from its summary:

"Most of the evidence indicates that the economic effects of the 1918
influenza pandemic were short-term."  Just like today: limited to the
duration of the pandemic.  Note that we are still in the midst of the
pandemic, so "short-term" losses are still part of today's balance sheets.
But there is reason to believe there will be a recovery once the pandemic
is over.

"Many businesses, especially those in the service and entertainment
industries, suffered double-digit losses in revenue."  Again, just like
today.  (Arguably there are more marginal businesses today, such that
double-digit percentage losses in revenue would drive them to close.)

So I'm wondering how many times something like this has happened in the
> pre-internet past, and we've hardly noticed it?
>

It's been speculated that this sort of thing may be coming about roughly
once a century.  There was a cholera epidemic in early 18XX (apparently
mostly limited to Asia), when constant global travel was starting to be a
thing.  Before then, disease was constant enough - and global travel
infrequent enough - that there were no comparable epidemics.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201101/dc4eebd0/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Nov  1 18:07:55 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2020 10:07:55 -0800
Subject: [ExI] hi res video images
Message-ID: <008901d6b079$ec8f1620$c5ad4260$@rainier66.com>

 

 

Oh MERCY is this hard-core cool or WHAT?  Is this a great time to be alive
or am I just dreaming this?

 

 <https://youtu.be/ZEyAs3NWH4A> https://youtu.be/ZEyAs3NWH4A

 <https://youtu.be/W7FcE7yZl4M> https://youtu.be/W7FcE7yZl4M

 <https://youtu.be/kcV8CQvVw_U> https://youtu.be/kcV8CQvVw_U

 

spike

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201101/57305f74/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 18:39:47 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2020 12:39:47 -0600
Subject: [ExI] owwwww, dang
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRi7h318u12qUsxb0=XmkvF65F6C0FE1nM=--F9uS+cZg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.55.1604182157.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <c2df115a-f016-bfde-78d8-22c5746cc421@zaiboc.net>
 <CALAdGNRi7h318u12qUsxb0=XmkvF65F6C0FE1nM=--F9uS+cZg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZDMxTdsBVV8feFtw5-foFgMgW7zbGSu-MviEwXjE1b_w@mail.gmail.com>

Well, all I can say re moderation is that if John is affected, several of
us who answered on the same thread should be in moderation too.  I
responded by ignoring what list I was on - I'll try not to do that again.
bill

On Sun, Nov 1, 2020 at 10:21 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Sun, Nov 1, 2020 at 2:56 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> On 31/10/2020 22:09, ExiMod wrote:
>> > Regrettably I have had to place John Clark on moderation as he cannot
>> > be trusted to post sensibly to Exi-chat.
>> > This will apply at least until after the election next week.
>> > John can still read Exi-chat, but his posts will be queued awaiting
>> > approval before posting.
>> > Delays will be unpredictable, depending on other commitments.
>> >
>> > Note: This does not apply to Extropolis, where there are no
>> restrictions.
>> >
>> > ExiMod
>>
>> I have to express my objection to this, as John's post (that apparently
>> triggered this) was not about american politics, it was about the
>> running of the Exi-Chat list.
>
>
> No, it was about American politics too.
>
> It contained a reminder that the US President controls the American
> nuclear launch codes, a point John has hammered repeatedly to underscore
> the urgency and importance of removing Trump from office - implying shame
> upon anyone who does not give their every waking moment and all their
> wealth to defeating Trump (and thus preventing Trump from initiating a
> nuclear war), which was part of the original reason to move politics chat
> to another list.
>
> As often, XKCD has a strip about this sort of fallacy:
> https://xkcd.com/2368/ .  The alt-text/mouseover-text is
> particularly relevant here.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201101/0b0ca823/attachment.htm>

From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu  Sun Nov  1 18:41:28 2020
From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2020 13:41:28 -0500
Subject: [ExI] what did we learn?
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNR=e1Ny3JuUi+EyRoBFMu1KN=4hj1NWLRc6EMtOR9j7zw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNR=e1Ny3JuUi+EyRoBFMu1KN=4hj1NWLRc6EMtOR9j7zw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <23CEAA6E-0560-4C74-9667-8007BE04AA06@alumni.virginia.edu>

How about this aspect: prior to the net, only authorities, entities with capital and probably reputation, could broadcast. Now anyone can say something on 4chan or Reddit and have it go viral. Next thing you know, Qanon is born. People who are not subject matter experts and opinions that haven?t been vetted or that are founded on baseless premises get equal footing and attention in some cases. Rules of memetics apply resulting in misinformation becoming propagated, and people don?t know what to believe. Now we have people questioning vaccines, masks, Public Health intentions, etc. And I mean in larger numbers than we would have seen in a pre-internet era I?m thinking. Access to garbage is easier than ever, and some people believe it way too easily it appears. Related to that problem, see this article that came out this week, with the POTUS as a case in point senior citizen it appears. 

?What Is The Internet Doing To Boomers? Brains? Social media platforms are sucking a generation into a misinformation rabbit hole.?  
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/internet-baby-boomers-misinformation-social-media_n_5f998039c5b6a4a2dc813d3d

> On Nov 1, 2020, at 11:28 AM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> epidemic
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201101/65833c79/attachment.htm>

From danust2012 at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 18:48:10 2020
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2020 18:48:10 +0000
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYwURcKM1L1y27D=OfW-5B8AjQSaGaYjQUJD8FMsxG0YA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYwURcKM1L1y27D=OfW-5B8AjQSaGaYjQUJD8FMsxG0YA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACB7g24Ns61O4VW5dfE_4wbQNH6M+s-BHP1bf5VJiYjXphSmEw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 1, 2020 at 4:13 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> "Reading is thinking with another person's mind; it forces you to stretch your own."
>
> Charles Scribner, Jr.

Says the man who makes his money selling books! :)

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst

From msd001 at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 21:01:09 2020
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2020 16:01:09 -0500
Subject: [ExI] what did we learn?
In-Reply-To: <15cbea90-5229-36fb-1662-117866c64520@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.47.1604177305.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <15cbea90-5229-36fb-1662-117866c64520@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbJ0rNE3f9Q=dAPr7i4tE7fafAYVYowxsNKADMMMuj6uwA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 1, 2020 at 5:41 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> Here's an idea I'm just throwing out for consideration. I'm not saying
> it's true, or that I believe it, but it's not something I've heard
> anyone else say. Maybe it's nonsense, maybe not:
>
> COVID-19 isn't really what's causing our current woes, the internet is.
>

I trust that you have a multilayer and nuanced thought process that was
overly summarized to that clickbait-y sentiment.

Consider how neo Luddite it sounds though.  All we have to do to solve our
current woes is "ban" the internet.  That's the kind of thinking that says
we can get those covid-cases down if only we stop testing so much.  Or that
in cases of legitimate rape, a womans's body has ways of shutting that down.

I'm using extreme examples; I admit.  That i didn't have to reach very far
to come up with such absurdities supports my point about what kind of
people are misunderstanding a simple statement like "... current woes, the
internet ... "  For those consumers, I think it might be better to simply
blame the devil:  "covid-19 isn't really what's causing our current woes,
the devil is."  At least you can go to Church to hide from the devil.
There's no way to stop the internet.

As Adrian proposed, the Internet is only a recent extension of "technology"
that was preceded by TV, radio, newsprint, etc... all the way back to the
dawn of language and communication.  We spread memes.  That's a design
feature and flaw.

I propose for your further consideration that anything you say about the
Internet you are saying about the hyperconnected mind of Humanity.  If you
had someplace to observe the cognitive behavioral health of Humanity as an
individual, what would you say about that "person"?  I haven't decided if
this anthropomorphic Humanity is a "terrible twos" baby or a pubescent
tween.  Too bad we don't have an older sibling role model.  :)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201101/4967dc71/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 06:58:50 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 14:58:50 +0800
Subject: [ExI] How do you make new discoveries about what's available on the
 internet?
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3+LMyunVe6kXwDU7p3pr9qM=VUu-_S4ysR=bD9XDiO4Q@mail.gmail.com>

I am not an IT professional, but like many people, I have been on the
internet a long time for a combination of pleasure and work. In my case,
around twenty-five years. But I tend to be somewhat of a stick in the mud,
in terms of doing the same things, and visiting the same forums and
websites.

I recently "discovered" Eventbrite and Zoom. I had used Eventbrite a little
bit in the past, but it had never clicked for me. But now with the pandemic
in place, I was amazed by all the seemingly impressive virtual Halloween
parties and events going on, via Zoom and other similar platforms. I was
frustrated because my computer cam had just died, and so I missed out on
these events that I learned about at the last minute. With a category five
hurricane bearing down on me, here in the Philippines, going to the store
was not much of an option. But I have now signed up for various activities
on Eventbrite, from everything from book reviews, to lessons about time
management and self-discipline. I also want to experience a virtual escape
room or haunted house with my new family, to see just how fun they are.

I realize we are all very different people, but what websites do you love
and recommend to others? And most importantly, how do you stay aware of the
latest cool websites and things going on within the internet, for not just
work, but entertainment?

And to this day, I regret finding out about Bitcoin early during the spring
of 2010, but being clueless about it's future worth, and doing nothing. But
then that may have been a once in a lifetime opportunity. I guess none of
us want to be left behind...

It seems like I regularly come across new websites, especially regarding
pop culture, that are fairly well established but still new to me. But like
Spike, my favorite haunt is probably Youtube. I remember him once raving
about how much he enjoyed it.

Thank you,

John  :  )
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201102/56ef7702/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 07:03:47 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 15:03:47 +0800
Subject: [ExI] hi res video images
In-Reply-To: <008901d6b079$ec8f1620$c5ad4260$@rainier66.com>
References: <008901d6b079$ec8f1620$c5ad4260$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy2=nGCbSFyPytWRMHkarns=G5M0R+GQu9Na=YMBYq_ogQ@mail.gmail.com>

Spike, c'mon! I've actually been there! Lol I took a good look at the video
footage, and that's definitely Arizona!  ;  )

On Mon, Nov 2, 2020 at 2:10 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> Oh MERCY is this hard-core cool or WHAT?  Is this a great time to be alive
> or am I just dreaming this?
>
>
>
> *https://youtu.be/ZEyAs3NWH4A <https://youtu.be/ZEyAs3NWH4A>*
>
> *https://youtu.be/W7FcE7yZl4M <https://youtu.be/W7FcE7yZl4M>*
>
> *https://youtu.be/kcV8CQvVw_U <https://youtu.be/kcV8CQvVw_U>*
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201102/3c3b5857/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Nov  2 12:55:24 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 04:55:24 -0800
Subject: [ExI] How do you make new discoveries about what's available on
 the internet?
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy3+LMyunVe6kXwDU7p3pr9qM=VUu-_S4ysR=bD9XDiO4Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy3+LMyunVe6kXwDU7p3pr9qM=VUu-_S4ysR=bD9XDiO4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001e01d6b117$6f2b2130$4d816390$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of John Grigg via extropy-chat



>?But now with the pandemic in place, I was amazed by all the seemingly impressive virtual Halloween parties and events going on, via Zoom and other similar platforms?John  :  )  

 

 

Thanks Johnny!  Zoom and its sisters is the biggest cool surprise of the past year.  Once you get accustomed to it, all the cool things you can get done: you can pull together meetings easily and quickly, get volunteer groups moving, have virtual family reunions that otherwise come together once a decade if you are lucky, oh what a cool development.  Add to all that: it?s free.  What a time to be living, oh my, what a time.  {8-]

 

spike

 

  

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201102/a619421d/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Nov  2 12:56:54 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 04:56:54 -0800
Subject: [ExI] hi res video images
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy2=nGCbSFyPytWRMHkarns=G5M0R+GQu9Na=YMBYq_ogQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <008901d6b079$ec8f1620$c5ad4260$@rainier66.com>
 <CAGSKFy2=nGCbSFyPytWRMHkarns=G5M0R+GQu9Na=YMBYq_ogQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002501d6b117$a4201b20$ec605160$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of John Grigg via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] hi res video images

 

>?Spike, c'mon! I've actually been there! Lol I took a good look at the video footage, and that's definitely Arizona!  ;  )

 

 

 

 

 

 

It?s remarkable how much that looks like eastern California desert, I will give ya that.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Mon, Nov 2, 2020 at 2:10 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

 

 

Oh MERCY is this hard-core cool or WHAT?  Is this a great time to be alive or am I just dreaming this?

 

 <https://youtu.be/ZEyAs3NWH4A> https://youtu.be/ZEyAs3NWH4A

 <https://youtu.be/W7FcE7yZl4M> https://youtu.be/W7FcE7yZl4M

 <https://youtu.be/kcV8CQvVw_U> https://youtu.be/kcV8CQvVw_U

 

spike

 

 

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201102/1e5af36c/attachment.htm>

From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 15:27:31 2020
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 15:27:31 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Training GPT-3 to play nice - it's difficult!
Message-ID: <CAL_armgGoUggrXHXhHgAEqUU8vdBktTFtS2Q5mEka+95AubpwA@mail.gmail.com>

How to make a chatbot that isn?t racist or sexist
Tools like GPT-3 are stunningly good, but they feed on the cesspits of
the internet. How can we make them safe for the public to actually
use?

by  Will Douglas Heaven    October 23, 2020

<https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/10/23/1011116/chatbot-gpt3-openai-facebook-google-safety-fix-racist-sexist-language-ai/>

Quote:
When GPT-3 was released this summer, people were stunned at how good
it was at producing paragraphs that could have been written by a human
on any topic it was prompted with. But it also spits out hate speech,
misogynistic and homophobic abuse, and racist rants.
Large language models like Google?s Meena, Facebook?s Blender, and
OpenAI?s GPT-3 are remarkably good at mimicking human language because
they are trained on vast numbers of examples taken from the internet.
That?s also where they learn to mimic unwanted prejudice and toxic
talk. It?s a known problem with no easy fix.
-------------------

Hmmmmm. So an AI trained to be like humans is likely to be just as
badly behaved as humans?
Should be good at fighting wars then.

BillK


From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 16:13:13 2020
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 08:13:13 -0800
Subject: [ExI] How do you make new discoveries about what's available on
 the internet?
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy3+LMyunVe6kXwDU7p3pr9qM=VUu-_S4ysR=bD9XDiO4Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy3+LMyunVe6kXwDU7p3pr9qM=VUu-_S4ysR=bD9XDiO4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSPQg2-=zGHHZzc95ysfv8vb_w8b3X7P0VzX+PWrryGLg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 1, 2020 at 10:55 PM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I realize we are all very different people, but what websites do you love
> and recommend to others? And most importantly, how do you stay aware of the
> latest cool websites and things going on within the internet, for not just
> work, but entertainment?
>

There is no one Web site with all the newest things - save google.com, kind
of, and even that has alternatives.  The key is to consider what kinds of
problems others may have solved and put up for other people to take
advantage of their solution, think what they might have called it (not
brand name, but general description), and then actually go search for those
keywords.  That last step seems to be the most difficult one for many
people, though it should be the simplest (go to your favorite Web search
engine, type in the keywords you've thought of, and click the button to
search).


> It seems like I regularly come across new websites, especially regarding
> pop culture, that are fairly well established but still new to me. But like
> Spike, my favorite haunt is probably Youtube. I remember him once raving
> about how much he enjoyed it.
>

There is a Web comic, XKCD, where many of its strips are useful commentary
on various aspects of modern Internet-enabled living.  This is an aspect it
has a strip for: https://xkcd.com/1053/ .
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201102/d33d2a72/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Nov  2 17:09:22 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 09:09:22 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Training GPT-3 to play nice - it's difficult!
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgGoUggrXHXhHgAEqUU8vdBktTFtS2Q5mEka+95AubpwA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgGoUggrXHXhHgAEqUU8vdBktTFtS2Q5mEka+95AubpwA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006301d6b13a$e9423c60$bbc6b520$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat
Subject: [ExI] Training GPT-3 to play nice - it's difficult!

>...How to make a chatbot that isn?t racist or sexist Tools like GPT-3 are stunningly good, but they feed on the cesspits of the internet. How can we make them safe for the public to actually use?

by  Will Douglas Heaven    October 23, 2020

<https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/10/23/1011116/chatbot-gpt3-openai-facebook-google-safety-fix-racist-sexist-language-ai/>

...

>...BillK

_______________________________________________



Hey cool, thanks BillK, can we get a copy of that and feed it on the Exi-chat archives?  That would be a hoot.  Perhaps we could train it with that, then see if we can disguise it as a prole, see who catches it first.  We could get have ExiMod get in cahoots with someone and use their @ so it wouldn't draw suspicion.  Hey cool even better: get one of the old-timers who has written volumes, train it with just that, then use that guy's @ and see if we can fool the public.

Dang I think I just gave away the game.

Hey better idea: get archives from two opposite personalities, train it up on that.  Hard telling what we would get: an average person or an apparent split personality.

(Side question: BillW and other psychology hipsters, that whole split personality business, is that real or is that Hollywood?)

We could have a lotta fun with this.  We could take it over on one of my math forums and one of my motorcycle forums.  People over there treat each other with respect and behave themselves more than we do, but perhaps that wouldn't be too much of a giveaway.

Another fun experiment: find old posts from Mike Lorrey, Lee Corbin, Mike Butler and Daniel whats-his-name, train it on those four, see if ExiMod boots it.  {8^D  That one would be cool because ExI would warn her (it?) but of course she doesn't learn from the warning, so you know she would be cruisin' fer a bruisin'.  Alternative: first warning from ExiMod, tip off ExiMod that it is a joke (sorta) and the Turing Test has just been passed (sorta.)

BillK, do you know what is the best platform that we can get to?  Some kind of public domain something where we give it the feedstock text?

spike





From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Nov  2 17:19:13 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 09:19:13 -0800
Subject: [ExI] How do you make new discoveries about what's available on
 the internet?
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSPQg2-=zGHHZzc95ysfv8vb_w8b3X7P0VzX+PWrryGLg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy3+LMyunVe6kXwDU7p3pr9qM=VUu-_S4ysR=bD9XDiO4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSPQg2-=zGHHZzc95ysfv8vb_w8b3X7P0VzX+PWrryGLg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007401d6b13c$49a40b50$dcec21f0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

 

On Sun, Nov 1, 2020 at 10:55 PM John Grigg via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

 

>?I realize we are all very different people?

 

Not all of us Johnny.  Everyone else is different, but not me.  I am the same.

 

>? but what websites do you love and recommend to others?

 

 

There are many good astronomy sites if one is into that kinda thing.  Our times are nerdvana for the space geek, the internet a playground.  This site has several good ones:

 

https://armaghplanet.com/the-10-best-space-and-astronomy-sites.html

 

Reason is great for political news.  

 

https://reason.org/

 

Slashdot: news for nerds, stuff that matters:

 

https://slashdot.org/

 

spike

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201102/5b04586d/attachment.htm>

From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 17:27:18 2020
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 17:27:18 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Training GPT-3 to play nice - it's difficult!
In-Reply-To: <006301d6b13a$e9423c60$bbc6b520$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armgGoUggrXHXhHgAEqUU8vdBktTFtS2Q5mEka+95AubpwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <006301d6b13a$e9423c60$bbc6b520$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armh9E2rrf-E6r5O4nsPfivhuBivdM3qu8dOEqhM2FEyNRA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 2 Nov 2020 at 17:12, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
<snip>
>
> Another fun experiment: find old posts from Mike Lorrey, Lee Corbin, Mike Butler and Daniel whats-his-name, train it on those four, see if ExiMod boots it.  {8^D  That one would be cool because ExI would warn her (it?) but of course she doesn't learn from the warning, so you know she would be cruisin' fer a bruisin'.  Alternative: first warning from ExiMod, tip off ExiMod that it is a joke (sorta) and the Turing Test has just been passed (sorta.)
>
> BillK, do you know what is the best platform that we can get to?  Some kind of public domain something where we give it the feedstock text?
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


Training GPT-3 is not easy. You need billions of text sentences. Like
the whole of reddit.......

Smaller groups of text would quickly lead to repetition of similar
phrases. Like the early chatbots.

BillK


From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Nov  2 17:49:20 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 09:49:20 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Training GPT-3 to play nice - it's difficult!
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armh9E2rrf-E6r5O4nsPfivhuBivdM3qu8dOEqhM2FEyNRA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgGoUggrXHXhHgAEqUU8vdBktTFtS2Q5mEka+95AubpwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <006301d6b13a$e9423c60$bbc6b520$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armh9E2rrf-E6r5O4nsPfivhuBivdM3qu8dOEqhM2FEyNRA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008101d6b140$7e679830$7b36c890$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
BillK via extropy-chat
Sent: Monday, November 2, 2020 9:27 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: BillK <pharos at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Training GPT-3 to play nice - it's difficult!

On Mon, 2 Nov 2020 at 17:12, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
> BillK, do you know what is the best platform that we can get to?  Some
kind of public domain something where we give it the feedstock text?
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


>...Training GPT-3 is not easy. You need billions of text sentences. Like
the whole of reddit.......

>...Smaller groups of text would quickly lead to repetition of similar
phrases. Like the early chatbots.

>...BillK

_______________________________________________


OK, so a sentence is about... say... 20 words?  And a word is about or 6
characters and a character is 8 bits so where are we, about a kilobit per
sentence?  So we need billions of sentences, so we need archives of a
trillion bits or a terabit or 100 gigabytes of text?  I think we can do
this.  We can mix ExI with Mensa and such as that, lotsa the geek sites.
How big is the ExI archive? 

It occurred to me that we would need to mix a lotta other stuff in there, or
it would get caught right away.  It would use some of my quirky text
patterns such as using uncommon or archaic terms: constable, harlot, sorta
kinda, bride, larvae, prole, that kinda thing.  It would be so busted, right
away, if we can't figure out a way to get that outta the feedstock text.
It's too late for me to stop using quirky signature writing patterns,
tragically too late.  It's in there now.  All my writings are of no value
for doing Turing test training, damn.  

{8-[

spike




From sparge at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 17:53:31 2020
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 12:53:31 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Training GPT-3 to play nice - it's difficult!
In-Reply-To: <006301d6b13a$e9423c60$bbc6b520$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armgGoUggrXHXhHgAEqUU8vdBktTFtS2Q5mEka+95AubpwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <006301d6b13a$e9423c60$bbc6b520$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2cSxjgGZ7Pg2h5Y9iF7gQF+dncTvaVBdniuoQZjbiZYEA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 2, 2020 at 12:11 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Another fun experiment: find old posts from Mike Lorrey, Lee Corbin, Mike
> Butler and Daniel whats-his-name, train it on those four, see if ExiMod
> boots it.  {8^D  That one would be cool because ExI would warn her (it?)
> but of course she doesn't learn from the warning, so you know she would be
> cruisin' fer a bruisin'.  Alternative: first warning from ExiMod, tip off
> ExiMod that it is a joke (sorta) and the Turing Test has just been passed
> (sorta.)
>

It's not the Turing test unless the tester(s) know they're testing. E.g.,
just because someone is fooled by a tech support chatbot doesn't mean there
was a Turing test. And there should be exactly two entities being tested:
one human and one computer.

-Dave
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201102/2bd1b31b/attachment.htm>

From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 18:00:14 2020
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 18:00:14 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Training GPT-3 to play nice - it's difficult!
In-Reply-To: <008101d6b140$7e679830$7b36c890$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armgGoUggrXHXhHgAEqUU8vdBktTFtS2Q5mEka+95AubpwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <006301d6b13a$e9423c60$bbc6b520$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armh9E2rrf-E6r5O4nsPfivhuBivdM3qu8dOEqhM2FEyNRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008101d6b140$7e679830$7b36c890$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armixkrccdyAU0HKFBt7NmUiNssg+DD-8ZV7GycbkYSZZ-g@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 2 Nov 2020 at 17:51, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
<snip>
> It occurred to me that we would need to mix a lotta other stuff in there, or
> it would get caught right away.  It would use some of my quirky text
> patterns such as using uncommon or archaic terms: constable, harlot, sorta
> kinda, bride, larvae, prole, that kinda thing.  It would be so busted, right
> away, if we can't figure out a way to get that outta the feedstock text.
> It's too late for me to stop using quirky signature writing patterns,
> tragically too late.  It's in there now.  All my writings are of no value
> for doing Turing test training, damn.
>
> {8-[
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


That's exactly the problem that the AI people face in getting rid of
racism, swearing, sexism, etc.... from the training archives.
It's a really difficult problem.  :)



BillK

From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Nov  2 18:04:18 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 10:04:18 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Training GPT-3 to play nice - it's difficult!
In-Reply-To: <008101d6b140$7e679830$7b36c890$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armgGoUggrXHXhHgAEqUU8vdBktTFtS2Q5mEka+95AubpwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <006301d6b13a$e9423c60$bbc6b520$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armh9E2rrf-E6r5O4nsPfivhuBivdM3qu8dOEqhM2FEyNRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008101d6b140$7e679830$7b36c890$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <008b01d6b142$95a959f0$c0fc0dd0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 

>...it would get caught right away.  It would use some of my quirky text
patterns such as using uncommon or archaic terms...  All my writings are of
no value for doing Turing test training, damn.    {8-[  spike


But wait, it gets worse.

As I was making a list of what phrases and quirky text patterns I would need
to eliminate in order to train a bot without getting caught right away, it
occurred to me how often I use the phrase, "...hey cool, check this..."  or
something a lot like it.  Ordinarily that would be considered a good thing:
gratitude is a powerful emotion.  It is good to reminded self that self has
had a good life, far better than I deserve with my paltry dearth of
socially-redeeming qualities and virtuous deeds, which I cheerfully confess.
However... the law of averages is gonna catch up with my ass eventually.

{8-[

spike





From ben at zaiboc.net  Mon Nov  2 18:05:49 2020
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 18:05:49 +0000
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
In-Reply-To: <mailman.60.1604336977.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.60.1604336977.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <1c476f6a-4da1-700d-2386-3f4bc663fd79@zaiboc.net>

On 02/11/2020 17:09, bill w wrote:
> "Reading is thinking with another person's mind; it forces you to 
> stretch your own."
>
> Charles Scribner, Jr.


I call nonsense on that.

Reading is filtering someone else's words through your own mind. I 
suspect it rarely stretches the minds that need stretching the most.

-- 
Ben Zaiboc

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201102/4fd577ae/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Nov  2 18:11:30 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 10:11:30 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Training GPT-3 to play nice - it's difficult!
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2cSxjgGZ7Pg2h5Y9iF7gQF+dncTvaVBdniuoQZjbiZYEA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgGoUggrXHXhHgAEqUU8vdBktTFtS2Q5mEka+95AubpwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <006301d6b13a$e9423c60$bbc6b520$@rainier66.com>
 <CAM5aL2cSxjgGZ7Pg2h5Y9iF7gQF+dncTvaVBdniuoQZjbiZYEA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009601d6b143$979248c0$c6b6da40$@rainier66.com>

 

 

 

> On Behalf Of Dave Sill via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] Training GPT-3 to play nice - it's difficult!

 

On Mon, Nov 2, 2020 at 12:11 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

Another fun experiment: ?  Alternative: first warning from ExiMod, tip off ExiMod that it is a joke (sorta) and the Turing Test has just been passed (sorta.)

 

>?It's not the Turing test unless the tester(s) know they're testing. E.g., just because someone is fooled by a tech support chatbot doesn't mean there was a Turing test. And there should be exactly two entities being tested: one human and one computer.  -Dave

 

 

Hi Dave, ja so right you are.

 

No worries, we have a different test with its own name, which specifically means a subset of Turing?s notion where the proles don?t know there might be software among them.  That should have a name, such as? the spike test?

 

spike

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201102/ca9609b6/attachment.htm>

From ben at zaiboc.net  Mon Nov  2 18:38:37 2020
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 18:38:37 +0000
Subject: [ExI] what did we learn?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.60.1604336977.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.60.1604336977.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <cd7c2eff-6cbf-a8f6-fc60-223ffdc35e0c@zaiboc.net>

On 02/11/2020 17:09, Mike Dougherty wrote:
> I trust that you have a multilayer (sic) and nuanced thought process 
> that was overly summarized to that clickbait-y sentiment.

Why thank you, sir. I didn't think I was capable of writing clickbait! 
(or even clickbait-y). On second thoughts, cancel that. I'm insulted, I 
am. Clickbait indeed!

But, Nope. Nothing multilayered or nuanced about it. As I said, just 
some musing for discussion. Just wondering that I haven't heard this 
idea before.



"All we have to do to solve our current woes is "ban" the internet"

That doesn't follow, and is not at all my point (it's also terrible use 
of quotation marks, just saying :-D). I remember the bad old days when 
there was no internet. I also remember the good old days when it was 
young, and the sky seemed the limit. Not nearly so impressed now, 
although I wouldn't want to (couldn't, in fact) do without it.


"I'm using extreme examples; I admit"

Do you also admit that they're so extreme as to be pointless?

...

"I haven't decided if this anthropomorphic Humanity is a "terrible twos" 
baby or a pubescent tween.? Too bad we don't have an older sibling role 
model.? :)"

Exactly. I'm no more suggesting we 'ban the internet' (as you say, a 
silly idea) than you would suggest imprisoning babies or pubescent 
youths because of their immaturity.

-- 
Ben Zaiboc


From ben at zaiboc.net  Mon Nov  2 18:48:48 2020
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 18:48:48 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Training GPT-3 to play nice - it's difficult!
In-Reply-To: <mailman.60.1604336977.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.60.1604336977.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <f3e792fc-97f1-c1c9-e4b4-5f3c0a4fe6f7@zaiboc.net>

On 02/11/2020 17:09, BillK wrote:
> How to make a chatbot that isn?t racist or sexist
> Tools like GPT-3 are stunningly good, but they feed on the cesspits of
> the internet. How can we make them safe for the public to actually
> use?

Wrong question, I reckon.

This is basically asking "how can we enforce a specific ideology on 
software?". Making software PC is basically censorship.

It's a bit like wanting to make sure artists don't portray naked flesh, 
or writers don't use swear words.

What the right question is, I'm not exactly sure. I'm inclined to say, 
though, that the problem doesn't lie with the software.

-- 
Ben Zaiboc


From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 19:00:20 2020
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 19:00:20 +0000
Subject: [ExI] New Flood and weather warning dashboard
Message-ID: <CAL_armjpMQfB+ak2YKg3i5CS-OwTpfr38ARHmC4iSdeNwKdVPw@mail.gmail.com>

The U.S. Geological Survey announced Friday the completion of a new
mobile tool that provides real-time information on water levels,
weather and flood forecasts all in one place on a computer, smartphone
or other mobile device.

<https://phys.org/news/2020-11-mobile-tool-nation-unveiled.html>

The tool can be used by forecasters and local emergency managers as
they issue flood- and evacuation warnings, verify safe evacuation
routes and coordinate emergency response efforts. The NWD can assist
the USACE as they manage water supplies in river basins and operate
flood-control reservoirs. During a drought, the tool can help state
resource managers identify areas where water supplies are at risk.
-----------------

BillK

From ben at zaiboc.net  Mon Nov  2 19:11:59 2020
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 19:11:59 +0000
Subject: [ExI] owwwww, dang
In-Reply-To: <mailman.60.1604336977.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.60.1604336977.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <4a9f5e35-04ef-3a33-0c14-c2f220ecab67@zaiboc.net>

On 02/11/2020 17:09, Adrian Tymes wrote:
>
> On Sun, Nov 1, 2020 at 2:56 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat 
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org 
> <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>> wrote:
>
>     On 31/10/2020 22:09, ExiMod wrote:
>     > Regrettably I have had to place John Clark on moderation as he
>     cannot
>     > be trusted to post sensibly to Exi-chat.
>     > This will apply at least until after the election next week.
>     > John can still read Exi-chat, but his posts will be queued awaiting
>     > approval before posting.
>     > Delays will be unpredictable, depending on other commitments.
>     >
>     > Note: This does not apply to Extropolis, where there are no
>     restrictions.
>     >
>     > ExiMod
>
>     I have to express my objection to this, as John's post (that
>     apparently
>     triggered this) was not about american politics, it was about the
>     running of the Exi-Chat list.
>
>
> No, it was about American politics too.
>
> It contained a reminder that the US President controls the American 
> nuclear launch codes, a point John has hammered repeatedly to 
> underscore the urgency and importance of removing Trump from office - 
> implying shame upon anyone who does not give their every waking moment 
> and all their wealth to defeating Trump (and thus preventing Trump 
> from initiating a nuclear war), which was part of the original reason 
> to move politics chat to another list.
>
> As often, XKCD has a strip about this sort of fallacy: 
> https://xkcd.com/2368/ .? The alt-text/mouseover-text is 
> particularly?relevant here.

Reminders and implications. I considered it to be a meta-post, about the 
list, not about politics. I'm one of the people most likely to be turned 
off by constant political discussion and argument on here, and have 
several times in the past just stopped reading the list until it was 
safe to do so again. John't post didn't upset me in the least, but 
obviously it did upset you.

I don't see the relevance of the xkcd strip, or how the fallacy 
mentioned there applies here. Perhaps it's too subtle for me.

-- 
Ben Zaiboc

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201102/b96c3119/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Nov  2 19:20:56 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 11:20:56 -0800
Subject: [ExI] this makes a lotta sense to me
Message-ID: <00c201d6b14d$4a838620$df8a9260$@rainier66.com>

 

 

Someone sent me this link.  It is long, but I ended up reading it all.  It's
a transcript of a seminar and deals with some of our local case stuff.
spike

 


A Sensible and Compassionate Anti-COVID Strategy


Jay Bhattacharya
Stanford University

  _____  

Jay Bhattacharya is a Professor of Medicine at Stanford University, where he
received both an M.D. and a Ph.D. in economics. He is also a research
associate at the National Bureau of Economics Research, a senior fellow at
the Stanford Institute for Economic Policy Research and at the Freeman
Spogli Institute for International Studies, and director of the Stanford
Center on the Demography and Economics of Health and Aging. A co-author of
the Great Barrington Declaration, his research has been published in
economics, statistics, legal, medical, public health, and health policy
journals.

  _____  

My goal today is, first, to present the facts about how deadly COVID-19
actually is; second, to present the facts about who is at risk from COVID;
third, to present some facts about how deadly the widespread lockdowns have
been; and fourth, to recommend a shift in public policy.

1. The COVID-19 Fatality Rate

In discussing the deadliness of COVID, we need to distinguish COVID cases
from COVID infections. A lot of fear and confusion has resulted from failing
to understand the difference.

We have heard much this year about the "case fatality rate" of COVID. In
early March, the case fatality rate in the U.S. was roughly three
percent-nearly three out of every hundred people who were identified as
"cases" of COVID in early March died from it. Compare that to today, when
the fatality rate of COVID is known to be less than one half of one percent.

In other words, when the World Health Organization said back in early March
that three percent of people who get COVID die from it, they were wrong by
at least one order of magnitude. The COVID fatality rate is much closer to
0.2 or 0.3 percent. The reason for the highly inaccurate early estimates is
simple: in early March, we were not identifying most of the people who had
been infected by COVID.

"Case fatality rate" is computed by dividing the number of deaths by the
total number of confirmed cases. But to obtain an accurate COVID fatality
rate, the number in the denominator should be the number of people who have
been infected-the number of people who have actually had the disease-rather
than the number of confirmed cases.

In March, only the small fraction of infected people who got sick and went
to the hospital were identified as cases. But the majority of people who are
infected by COVID have very mild symptoms or no symptoms at all. These
people weren't identified in the early days, which resulted in a highly
misleading fatality rate. And that is what drove public policy. Even worse,
it continues to sow fear and panic, because the perception of too many
people about COVID is frozen in the misleading data from March.

So how do we get an accurate fatality rate? To use a technical term, we test
for seroprevalence-in other words, we test to find out how many people have
evidence in their bloodstream of having had COVID.

This is easy with some viruses. Anyone who has had chickenpox, for instance,
still has that virus living in them-it stays in the body forever. COVID, on
the other hand, like other coronaviruses, doesn't stay in the body. Someone
who is infected with COVID and then clears it will be immune from it, but it
won't still be living in them.

What we need to test for, then, are antibodies or other evidence that
someone has had COVID. And even antibodies fade over time, so testing for
them still results in an underestimate of total infections.

Seroprevalence is what I worked on in the early days of the epidemic. In
April, I ran a series of studies, using antibody tests, to see how many
people in California's Santa Clara County, where I live, had been infected.
At the time, there were about 1,000 COVID cases that had been identified in
the county, but our antibody tests found that 50,000 people had been
infected-i.e., there were 50 times more infections than identified cases.
This was enormously important, because it meant that the fatality rate was
not three percent, but closer to 0.2 percent; not three in 100, but two in
1,000.

When it came out, this Santa Clara study was controversial. But science is
like that, and the way science tests controversial studies is to see if they
can be replicated. And indeed, there are now 82 similar seroprevalence
studies from around the world, and the median result of these 82 studies is
a fatality rate of about 0.2 percent-exactly what we found in Santa Clara
County.

In some places, of course, the fatality rate was higher: in New York City it
was more like 0.5 percent. In other places it was lower: the rate in Idaho
was 0.13 percent. What this variation shows is that the fatality rate is not
simply a function of how deadly a virus is. It is also a function of who
gets infected and of the quality of the health care system. In the early
days of the virus, our health care systems managed COVID poorly. Part of
this was due to ignorance: we pursued very aggressive treatments, for
instance, such as the use of ventilators, that in retrospect might have been
counterproductive. And part of it was due to negligence: in some places, we
needlessly allowed a lot of people in nursing homes to get infected.

But the bottom line is that the COVID fatality rate is in the neighborhood
of 0.2 percent.

2. Who Is at Risk?

The single most important fact about the COVID pandemic-in terms of deciding
how to respond to it on both an individual and a governmental basis-is that
it is not equally dangerous for everybody. This became clear very early on,
but for some reason our public health messaging failed to get this fact out
to the public.

It still seems to be a common perception that COVID is equally dangerous to
everybody, but this couldn't be further from the truth. There is a
thousand-fold difference between the mortality rate in older people, 70 and
up, and the mortality rate in children. In some sense, this is a great
blessing. If it was a disease that killed children preferentially, I for one
would react very differently. But the fact is that for young children, this
disease is less dangerous than the seasonal flu. This year, in the United
States, more children have died from the seasonal flu than from COVID by a
factor of two or three.

Whereas COVID is not deadly for children, for older people it is much more
deadly than the seasonal flu. If you look at studies worldwide, the COVID
fatality rate for people 70 and up is about four percent-four in 100 among
those 70 and older, as opposed to two in 1,000 in the overall population.

Again, this huge difference between the danger of COVID to the young and the
danger of COVID to the old is the most important fact about the virus. Yet
it has not been sufficiently emphasized in public health messaging or taken
into account by most policymakers.

3. Deadliness of the Lockdowns

The widespread lockdowns that have been adopted in response to COVID are
unprecedented-lockdowns have never before been tried as a method of disease
control. Nor were these lockdowns part of the original plan. The initial
rationale for lockdowns was that slowing the spread of the disease would
prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed. It became clear before long that
this was not a worry: in the U.S. and in most of the world, hospitals were
never at risk of being overwhelmed. Yet the lockdowns were kept in place,
and this is turning out to have deadly effects.

Those who dare to talk about the tremendous economic harms that have
followed from the lockdowns are accused of heartlessness. Economic
considerations are nothing compared to saving lives, they are told. So I'm
not going to talk about the economic effects-I'm going to talk about the
deadly effects on health, beginning with the fact that the U.N. has
estimated that 130 million additional people will starve this year as a
result of the economic damage resulting from the lockdowns.

In the last 20 years we've lifted one billion people worldwide out of
poverty. This year we are reversing that progress to the extent-it bears
repeating-that an estimated 130 million more people will starve.

Another result of the lockdowns is that people stopped bringing their
children in for immunizations against diseases like diphtheria, pertussis
(whooping cough), and polio, because they had been led to fear COVID more
than they feared these more deadly diseases. This wasn't only true in the
U.S. Eighty million children worldwide are now at risk of these diseases. We
had made substantial progress in slowing them down, but now they are going
to come back.

Large numbers of Americans, even though they had cancer and needed
chemotherapy, didn't come in for treatment because they were more afraid of
COVID than cancer. Others have skipped recommended cancer screenings. We're
going to see a rise in cancer and cancer death rates as a consequence.
Indeed, this is already starting to show up in the data. We're also going to
see a higher number of deaths from diabetes due to people missing their
diabetic monitoring.

Mental health problems are in a way the most shocking thing. In June of this
year, a CDC survey found that one in four young adults between 18 and 24 had
seriously considered suicide. Human beings are not, after all, designed to
live alone. We're meant to be in company with one another. It is
unsurprising that the lockdowns have had the psychological effects that
they've had, especially among young adults and children, who have been
denied much-needed socialization.

In effect, what we've been doing is requiring young people to bear the
burden of controlling a disease from which they face little to no risk. This
is entirely backward from the right approach.

4. Where to Go from Here

Last week I met with two other epidemiologists-Dr. Sunetra Gupta of Oxford
University and Dr. Martin Kulldorff of Harvard University-in Great
Barrington, Massachusetts. The three of us come from very different
disciplinary backgrounds and from very different parts of the political
spectrum. Yet we had arrived at the same view-the view that the widespread
lockdown policy has been a devastating public health mistake. In response,
we wrote and issued the Great Barrington Declaration, which can be
viewed-along with explanatory videos, answers to frequently asked questions,
a list of co-signers, etc.-online at  <https://gbdeclaration.org/>
www.gbdeclaration.org.

The Declaration reads:

As infectious disease epidemiologists and public health scientists we have
grave concerns about the damaging physical and mental health impacts of the
prevailing COVID-19 policies, and recommend an approach we call Focused
Protection.

Coming from both the left and right, and around the world, we have devoted
our careers to protecting people. Current lockdown policies are producing
devastating effects on short and long-term public health. The results (to
name a few) include lower childhood vaccination rates, worsening
cardiovascular disease outcomes, fewer cancer screenings, and deteriorating
mental health-leading to greater excess mortality in years to come, with the
working class and younger members of society carrying the heaviest burden.
Keeping students out of school is a grave injustice.

Keeping these measures in place until a vaccine is available will cause
irreparable damage, with the underprivileged disproportionately harmed.

Fortunately, our understanding of the virus is growing. We know that
vulnerability to death from COVID-19 is more than a thousand-fold higher in
the old and infirm than the young. Indeed, for children, COVID-19 is less
dangerous than many other harms, including influenza.

As immunity builds in the population, the risk of infection to all-including
the vulnerable-falls. We know that all populations will eventually reach
herd immunity-i.e., the point at which the rate of new infections is
stable-and that this can be assisted by (but is not dependent upon) a
vaccine. Our goal should therefore be to minimize mortality and social harm
until we reach herd immunity.

The most compassionate approach that balances the risks and benefits of
reaching herd immunity, is to allow those who are at minimal risk of death
to live their lives normally to build up immunity to the virus through
natural infection, while better protecting those who are at highest risk. We
call this Focused Protection.

Adopting measures to protect the vulnerable should be the central aim of
public health responses to COVID-19. By way of example, nursing homes should
use staff with acquired immunity and perform frequent PCR testing of other
staff and all visitors. Staff rotation should be minimized. Retired people
living at home should have groceries and other essentials delivered to their
home. When possible, they should meet family members outside rather than
inside. A comprehensive and detailed list of measures, including approaches
to multi-generational households, can be implemented, and is well within the
scope and capability of public health professionals.

Those who are not vulnerable should immediately be allowed to resume life as
normal. Simple hygiene measures, such as hand washing and staying home when
sick should be practiced by everyone to reduce the herd immunity threshold.
Schools and universities should be open for in-person teaching.
Extracurricular activities, such as sports, should be resumed. Young
low-risk adults should work normally, rather than from home. Restaurants and
other businesses should open. Arts, music, sports, and other cultural
activities should resume. People who are more at risk may participate if
they wish, while society as a whole enjoys the protection conferred upon the
vulnerable by those who have built up herd immunity.

***

I should say something in conclusion about the idea of herd immunity, which
some people mischaracterize as a strategy of letting people die. First, herd
immunity is not a strategy-it is a biological fact that applies to most
infectious diseases. Even when we come up with a vaccine, we will be relying
on herd immunity as an end-point for this epidemic. The vaccine will help,
but herd immunity is what will bring it to an end. And second, our strategy
is not to let people die, but to protect the vulnerable. We know the people
who are vulnerable, and we know the people who are not vulnerable. To
continue to act as if we do not know these things makes no sense.

My final point is about science. When scientists have spoken up against the
lockdown policy, there has been enormous pushback: "You're endangering
lives." Science cannot operate in an environment like that. I don't know all
the answers to COVID; no one does. Science ought to be able to clarify the
answers. But science can't do its job in an environment where anyone who
challenges the status quo gets shut down or cancelled.

To date, the Great Barrington Declaration has been signed by over 43,000
medical and public health scientists and medical practitioners. The
Declaration thus does not represent a fringe view within the scientific
community. This is a central part of the scientific debate, and it belongs
in the debate. Members of the general public can also sign the Declaration.

Together, I think we can get on the other side of this pandemic. But we have
to fight back. We're at a place where our civilization is at risk, where the
bonds that unite us are at risk of being torn. We shouldn't be afraid. We
should respond to the COVID virus rationally: protect the vulnerable, treat
the people who get infected compassionately, develop a vaccine. And while
doing these things we should bring back the civilization that we had so that
the cure does not end up being worse than the disease. 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201102/0493c6d8/attachment-0001.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image001.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 5134 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201102/0493c6d8/attachment-0001.jpg>

From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 19:51:28 2020
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 11:51:28 -0800
Subject: [ExI] owwwww, dang
In-Reply-To: <4a9f5e35-04ef-3a33-0c14-c2f220ecab67@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.60.1604336977.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <4a9f5e35-04ef-3a33-0c14-c2f220ecab67@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTuC7LTHMwhKxRxj-QZGTGofZjowmc3BXy-jzHq1FndkQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 2, 2020 at 11:13 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I don't see the relevance of the xkcd strip, or how the fallacy mentioned
> there applies here. Perhaps it's too subtle for me.
>

John's post continued the theme (by implication, but a fairly direct
implication) in several of his posts, that the only thing anyone should
care about is preventing Trump from launching a nuclear war / is getting
Trump out of office as soon as possible.

The XKCD strip points out that, just because there exists one important
problem, is not an excuse to stop caring about everything else, or
especially to stop spending resources on fixing other problems.  There are
many important problems.  Resources spent fixing one of them are not
mis-spent merely because they are not spent on the others instead.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201102/9660fd08/attachment.htm>

From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 19:56:16 2020
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 11:56:16 -0800
Subject: [ExI] this makes a lotta sense to me
In-Reply-To: <00c201d6b14d$4a838620$df8a9260$@rainier66.com>
References: <00c201d6b14d$4a838620$df8a9260$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNT-enKAgGX2+n8ZU_1SOj27ptBK6d-FDpJkPHmnvtwvhQ@mail.gmail.com>

>
> The initial rationale for lockdowns was that slowing the spread of the
> disease would prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed. It became clear
> before long that this was not a worry: in the U.S. and in most of the
> world, hospitals were never at risk of being overwhelmed.
>

Here is the lie that unravels the entire argument.  Notice the article
provides no evidence to back up this assertion.

https://www.google.com/search?q=hospitals+overwhelmed+covid finds several
articles that show the hospitals are at risk of being - or, in many cases,
simply are being - overwhelmed.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201102/93052377/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 20:02:05 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 14:02:05 -0600
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
In-Reply-To: <1c476f6a-4da1-700d-2386-3f4bc663fd79@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.60.1604336977.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1c476f6a-4da1-700d-2386-3f4bc663fd79@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaw=xGGwoHedzffnBBiReEONrJkB3qn+_j6y-YAeeaE0A@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
> "Reading is thinking with another person's mind; it forces you to stretch
> your own."
>
> Charles Scribner, Jr.
>
>
> I call nonsense on that.
>
> Reading is filtering someone else's words through your own mind. I suspect
> it rarely stretches the minds that need stretching the most.  Quite the
> cynic, are you?  I do agree with your filtering idea.  Semanticists tell us
> that we never get 100% of what is transmitted.  As for who gets stretched:
> the rich get richer; the poor, poorer - as always.   bill w
>
> --
> Ben Zaiboc
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201102/6863c07f/attachment.htm>

From jasonresch at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 21:14:27 2020
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 15:14:27 -0600
Subject: [ExI] AI interview
Message-ID: <CA+BCJUjc8XPOTYo4Sv8eEwgJieFtAPcOc27NoO2ZQXx-RGHn5A@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqbB07n_uQ4

Jason
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201102/6b558f58/attachment.htm>

From msd001 at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 21:44:49 2020
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 16:44:49 -0500
Subject: [ExI] what did we learn?
In-Reply-To: <cd7c2eff-6cbf-a8f6-fc60-223ffdc35e0c@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.60.1604336977.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <cd7c2eff-6cbf-a8f6-fc60-223ffdc35e0c@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbLrENn5EDofx22+Eq2GWWhNA+q0DZ_ueBBDDJHG4ozk0Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 2, 2020 at 1:40 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On 02/11/2020 17:09, Mike Dougherty wrote:
> > I trust that you have a multilayer (sic) and nuanced thought process
> > that was overly summarized to that clickbait-y sentiment.
>
> Why thank you, sir. I didn't think I was capable of writing clickbait!
> (or even clickbait-y). On second thoughts, cancel that. I'm insulted, I
> am. Clickbait indeed!
>

No, no.. stick with the first thoughts.  I assumed your musings were not in
the vein that I had taken from the literal wording.


>
> But, Nope. Nothing multilayered or nuanced about it. As I said, just
> some musing for discussion. Just wondering that I haven't heard this
> idea before.
>
> "All we have to do to solve our current woes is "ban" the internet"
>
> That doesn't follow, and is not at all my point (it's also terrible use
> of quotation marks, just saying :-D). I remember the bad old days when
> there was no internet. I also remember the good old days when it was
> young, and the sky seemed the limit. Not nearly so impressed now,
> although I wouldn't want to (couldn't, in fact) do without it.
>

Of course it follows.  If the source of our current woes is drunk driving,
we ban drinking and therefore the problem is solved.  It's really very
simple when there is a single cause to a complex problem.

which style of quoting would you prefer:
  "All we have to do to solve our current woes is 'ban' the internet"
or
  "All we have to do to solve our current woes is \"ban\" the internet"

:p


>
> "I'm using extreme examples; I admit"
>
> Do you also admit that they're so extreme as to be pointless?
>
>
Yes, I concede that all human endeavors are pointless so why should this be
different?


>
> "I haven't decided if this anthropomorphic Humanity is a "terrible twos"
> baby or a pubescent tween.  Too bad we don't have an older sibling role
> model.  :)"
>
> Exactly. I'm no more suggesting we 'ban the internet' (as you say, a
> silly idea) than you would suggest imprisoning babies or pubescent
> youths because of their immaturity.
>
>
I guess my point was more in line with scapegoating the internet as an
obvious solution once it's identified as THE cause of our current woes.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201102/15229b36/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 22:19:57 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 16:19:57 -0600
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaRPoaDfzkyd-GQFTrf557D81TT0nCBqQtu6A3CSPMqLQ@mail.gmail.com>

Race isn't the problem.  It's class.

bill w
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201102/2280b138/attachment.htm>

From danust2012 at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 22:49:03 2020
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 14:49:03 -0800
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaRPoaDfzkyd-GQFTrf557D81TT0nCBqQtu6A3CSPMqLQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaRPoaDfzkyd-GQFTrf557D81TT0nCBqQtu6A3CSPMqLQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <059A15D5-0E9F-40FC-ADBF-F5AE4DBF216A@gmail.com>

On Nov 2, 2020, at 2:22 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote

> Race isn't the problem.  It's class.

Both are problems.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201102/8d87678a/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 02:46:25 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 10:46:25 +0800
Subject: [ExI] How do you make new discoveries about what's available on
 the internet?
In-Reply-To: <007401d6b13c$49a40b50$dcec21f0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAGSKFy3+LMyunVe6kXwDU7p3pr9qM=VUu-_S4ysR=bD9XDiO4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSPQg2-=zGHHZzc95ysfv8vb_w8b3X7P0VzX+PWrryGLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <007401d6b13c$49a40b50$dcec21f0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy0WhA+keAZGguoo3NLo3Cg3X14cgHp4i+MgSCQQbMD_Hw@mail.gmail.com>

Spike, I love space.com and have been a regular visitor for many years.
Yes, Reason is great and I need to get back into the habit of reading over
it. I have been told for ages that Slashdot is terrific, and I need to take
more than one look. There is so much great stuff out there...

Looking over Slashdot reminded me that a huge Phoenix area electronics
store, Fry's Electronics, went out of business, even before the pandemic
hit. I used to love going there and taking in the atmosphere. They had a
magazine section that rivaled the local Barnes & Noble, and a nice eatery
for relaxing. I recall going there with a techie friend and finding just
the right inexpensive hard drive, to help us with our latest goofy
cryptocurrency mining venture.



On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 1:25 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 1, 2020 at 10:55 PM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> >?I realize we are all very different people?
>
>
>
> Not all of us Johnny.  Everyone else is different, but not me.  I am the
> same.
>
>
>
> >? but what websites do you love and recommend to others?
>
>
>
>
>
> There are many good astronomy sites if one is into that kinda thing.  Our
> times are nerdvana for the space geek, the internet a playground.  This
> site has several good ones:
>
>
>
> https://armaghplanet.com/the-10-best-space-and-astronomy-sites.html
>
>
>
> Reason is great for political news.
>
>
>
> https://reason.org/
>
>
>
> Slashdot: news for nerds, stuff that matters:
>
>
>
> https://slashdot.org/
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201103/b40c1820/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 02:54:39 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 10:54:39 +0800
Subject: [ExI] How do you make new discoveries about what's available on
 the internet?
In-Reply-To: <007401d6b13c$49a40b50$dcec21f0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAGSKFy3+LMyunVe6kXwDU7p3pr9qM=VUu-_S4ysR=bD9XDiO4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSPQg2-=zGHHZzc95ysfv8vb_w8b3X7P0VzX+PWrryGLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <007401d6b13c$49a40b50$dcec21f0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1ZTQ25JWmtuHO11zQXVWC+7ri4bD8NmrhGmSyN9add-Q@mail.gmail.com>

Adrian Tymes wrote:
"There is no one Web site with all the newest things - save google.com,
kind of, and even that has alternatives.  The key is to consider what kinds
of problems others may have solved and put up for other people to take
advantage of their solution, think what they might have called it (not
brand name, but general description), and then actually go search for those
keywords.  That last step seems to be the most difficult one for many
people, though it should be the simplest (go to your favorite Web search
engine, type in the keywords you've thought of, and click the button to
search)."

A cool idea for tracking down/fishing for what is out there... Thank you...
It amazes me what resources exist online, just waiting to be found when
needed/wanted...

XKCD is a terrific comic I have been reading off and on for years. I come
across it everywhere! Lol We would have only seen a comic like that in a
science journal, university newspaper or something similar, before the
advent of the internet.


On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 1:25 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 1, 2020 at 10:55 PM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> >?I realize we are all very different people?
>
>
>
> Not all of us Johnny.  Everyone else is different, but not me.  I am the
> same.
>
>
>
> >? but what websites do you love and recommend to others?
>
>
>
>
>
> There are many good astronomy sites if one is into that kinda thing.  Our
> times are nerdvana for the space geek, the internet a playground.  This
> site has several good ones:
>
>
>
> https://armaghplanet.com/the-10-best-space-and-astronomy-sites.html
>
>
>
> Reason is great for political news.
>
>
>
> https://reason.org/
>
>
>
> Slashdot: news for nerds, stuff that matters:
>
>
>
> https://slashdot.org/
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201103/670c0fea/attachment.htm>

From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 02:51:29 2020
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 21:51:29 -0500
Subject: [ExI] How do you make new discoveries about what's available on
 the internet?
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy3+LMyunVe6kXwDU7p3pr9qM=VUu-_S4ysR=bD9XDiO4Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy3+LMyunVe6kXwDU7p3pr9qM=VUu-_S4ysR=bD9XDiO4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyGxC60MHsuuv5Wth+2PzkObh-xB7SKSGPo7r1aCu+MzBg@mail.gmail.com>

Try having thousands of bitcoins in 2012 and spending them all on
drugs......

On Mon, Nov 2, 2020, 1:54 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I am not an IT professional, but like many people, I have been on the
> internet a long time for a combination of pleasure and work. In my case,
> around twenty-five years. But I tend to be somewhat of a stick in the mud,
> in terms of doing the same things, and visiting the same forums and
> websites.
>
> I recently "discovered" Eventbrite and Zoom. I had used Eventbrite a
> little bit in the past, but it had never clicked for me. But now with the
> pandemic in place, I was amazed by all the seemingly impressive virtual
> Halloween parties and events going on, via Zoom and other similar
> platforms. I was frustrated because my computer cam had just died, and so I
> missed out on these events that I learned about at the last minute. With a
> category five hurricane bearing down on me, here in the Philippines, going
> to the store was not much of an option. But I have now signed up for
> various activities on Eventbrite, from everything from book reviews, to
> lessons about time management and self-discipline. I also want to
> experience a virtual escape room or haunted house with my new family, to
> see just how fun they are.
>
> I realize we are all very different people, but what websites do you love
> and recommend to others? And most importantly, how do you stay aware of the
> latest cool websites and things going on within the internet, for not just
> work, but entertainment?
>
> And to this day, I regret finding out about Bitcoin early during the
> spring of 2010, but being clueless about it's future worth, and doing
> nothing. But then that may have been a once in a lifetime opportunity. I
> guess none of us want to be left behind...
>
> It seems like I regularly come across new websites, especially regarding
> pop culture, that are fairly well established but still new to me. But like
> Spike, my favorite haunt is probably Youtube. I remember him once raving
> about how much he enjoyed it.
>
> Thank you,
>
> John  :  )
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201102/4e123592/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Nov  3 03:10:34 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 19:10:34 -0800
Subject: [ExI] How do you make new discoveries about what's available on
 the internet?
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy0WhA+keAZGguoo3NLo3Cg3X14cgHp4i+MgSCQQbMD_Hw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy3+LMyunVe6kXwDU7p3pr9qM=VUu-_S4ysR=bD9XDiO4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSPQg2-=zGHHZzc95ysfv8vb_w8b3X7P0VzX+PWrryGLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <007401d6b13c$49a40b50$dcec21f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAGSKFy0WhA+keAZGguoo3NLo3Cg3X14cgHp4i+MgSCQQbMD_Hw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002401d6b18e$e619a100$b24ce300$@rainier66.com>

 

 

> On Behalf Of John Grigg via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] How do you make new discoveries about what's available on the internet?

 

>?Spike, I love space.com <http://space.com>  and have been a regular visitor for many years. Yes, Reason is great ?

 

Ja I have been a regular there for a long time.

 

>?Looking over Slashdot reminded me that a huge Phoenix area electronics store, Fry's Electronics, went out of business, even before the pandemic hit?

 

Our Fry?s is still hanging on, but it is clear enough where our current road leads.  All traditional bricks and mortar stores will be a memory, with the buildings being used as homeless shelters.

 

spike

 

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201102/bb34503b/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Nov  3 03:14:31 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 19:14:31 -0800
Subject: [ExI] How do you make new discoveries about what's available on
 the internet?
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyGxC60MHsuuv5Wth+2PzkObh-xB7SKSGPo7r1aCu+MzBg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy3+LMyunVe6kXwDU7p3pr9qM=VUu-_S4ysR=bD9XDiO4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyGxC60MHsuuv5Wth+2PzkObh-xB7SKSGPo7r1aCu+MzBg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002b01d6b18f$72f1b090$58d511b0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat

Subject: Re: [ExI] How do you make new discoveries about what's available on the internet?

 

>?Try having thousands of bitcoins in 2012 and spending them all on drugs...... Will

 

Today?s bitcoin spot price is 13,500 bucks.

 

spike

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201102/3b010558/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 03:49:36 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 11:49:36 +0800
Subject: [ExI] How do you make new discoveries about what's available on
 the internet?
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyGxC60MHsuuv5Wth+2PzkObh-xB7SKSGPo7r1aCu+MzBg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy3+LMyunVe6kXwDU7p3pr9qM=VUu-_S4ysR=bD9XDiO4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyGxC60MHsuuv5Wth+2PzkObh-xB7SKSGPo7r1aCu+MzBg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1zHinQiCbXBgO=WK_+d49K5d78ssypqgv2vkkKbR4s3Q@mail.gmail.com>

Will Steinberg wrote:
"Try having thousands of bitcoins in 2012 and spending them all on
drugs......"

Will, was this you? Or someone else? What is the story? I have a friend
whose wife threw out an old hard drive (can't have old junk lying around
the house collecting dust) where he had the information stored for his
Bitcoins. Years ago it would have been worth half a million dollars, and so
I'm sure he regularly does the price calculations in his head as the price
goes up and up...

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 10:56 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Try having thousands of bitcoins in 2012 and spending them all on
> drugs......
>
> On Mon, Nov 2, 2020, 1:54 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> I am not an IT professional, but like many people, I have been on the
>> internet a long time for a combination of pleasure and work. In my case,
>> around twenty-five years. But I tend to be somewhat of a stick in the mud,
>> in terms of doing the same things, and visiting the same forums and
>> websites.
>>
>> I recently "discovered" Eventbrite and Zoom. I had used Eventbrite a
>> little bit in the past, but it had never clicked for me. But now with the
>> pandemic in place, I was amazed by all the seemingly impressive virtual
>> Halloween parties and events going on, via Zoom and other similar
>> platforms. I was frustrated because my computer cam had just died, and so I
>> missed out on these events that I learned about at the last minute. With a
>> category five hurricane bearing down on me, here in the Philippines, going
>> to the store was not much of an option. But I have now signed up for
>> various activities on Eventbrite, from everything from book reviews, to
>> lessons about time management and self-discipline. I also want to
>> experience a virtual escape room or haunted house with my new family, to
>> see just how fun they are.
>>
>> I realize we are all very different people, but what websites do you love
>> and recommend to others? And most importantly, how do you stay aware of the
>> latest cool websites and things going on within the internet, for not just
>> work, but entertainment?
>>
>> And to this day, I regret finding out about Bitcoin early during the
>> spring of 2010, but being clueless about it's future worth, and doing
>> nothing. But then that may have been a once in a lifetime opportunity. I
>> guess none of us want to be left behind...
>>
>> It seems like I regularly come across new websites, especially regarding
>> pop culture, that are fairly well established but still new to me. But like
>> Spike, my favorite haunt is probably Youtube. I remember him once raving
>> about how much he enjoyed it.
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> John  :  )
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201103/c3a395da/attachment.htm>

From msd001 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 03:54:17 2020
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 22:54:17 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Beyond Meat
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbL05ELS3jVF+pJ_XvZvS_rmfkDMvWQKJ3OW-YdA3=-LZQ@mail.gmail.com>

I think we've discussed being uploaded to non-bio computing substrate for
the sake of surviving extra planetary space (yeah?)

Have we imagined the various dystopian scenarios where we will need to
abandon biology to survive hostile conditions on earth, such as extreme
ecological collapse?

I keep catching glimpses of a simulation (imagine a 2d shadow of a 3d
object, several rotations in several dimensions would index the set of all
shadows that object could cast, or how mandelbrot set indexes julia sets...
I'm not using any rigorous proof, just reaching for ideas like enumerating
(which is a feature of whole numbers or integers) a continuous manifold
(real numbers, and weirder stuff like quaternions and octonions.  Maybe
there is a relationship to fractals there.  I have moments where i see this
"shape" ... but i don't have words to describe it.  How do we name these
states so we work on them?

Anyway, the thing i was actually trying to solicit thoughts about is
whether transhuman futures will be driven by those trying to leave earth or
by those trying to stay.

All that math stuff was left as a stream of thought share, if anyone has
meta thoughts to meta share in meta kind. :)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201102/ee77ec07/attachment.htm>

From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 05:34:19 2020
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 21:34:19 -0800
Subject: [ExI] How do you make new discoveries about what's available on
 the internet?
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy1ZTQ25JWmtuHO11zQXVWC+7ri4bD8NmrhGmSyN9add-Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy3+LMyunVe6kXwDU7p3pr9qM=VUu-_S4ysR=bD9XDiO4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSPQg2-=zGHHZzc95ysfv8vb_w8b3X7P0VzX+PWrryGLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <007401d6b13c$49a40b50$dcec21f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAGSKFy1ZTQ25JWmtuHO11zQXVWC+7ri4bD8NmrhGmSyN9add-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSunPT7OKRL3TfNz3EF=EE_CMNS1dGByHV7V-j+tZyRDA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 2, 2020 at 6:50 PM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> A cool idea for tracking down/fishing for what is out there... Thank you...
>

You're welcome. :)  It's something I've had much reason to think about over
the years.

It amazes me what resources exist online, just waiting to be found when
> needed/wanted...
>

One may make a career out of it.  For a time I did, calling it "tech
scavenging" to evoke an image of an intellectual property version of Mad
Max.  That's where the slogan on the back of Winged Cat Solutions' business
cards comes from.  ("Wonders are created every day.  Let us help you find
them.")

And it continues even now.  I find myself looking for organizations
(preferably US ones) with CubeSat-compatible sensors that NOAA may be
interested in funding development of.  A very specific need, and yet I am
finding results.  (If anyone here works for such a company and would like
to help make your employer a few million dollars - which would hopefully
mean a bonus for you, or at least job security for the next couple years -
please contact me offlist.)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201102/0dca50df/attachment-0001.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 13:09:32 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 21:09:32 +0800
Subject: [ExI] The 'Caspian Sea Monster' rises from the grave
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy0Z1bxGja=UMaznL6P_QeF0YqCrdzf5uxgH74YxU4N63w@mail.gmail.com>

 "Beached on the western shores of the Caspian Sea, it looks like a
colossal aquatic beast -- a bizarre creation more at home in the deep than
above the waves. It certainly doesn't look like something that could ever
fly.But fly it did -- albeit a long time ago.

After lying dormant for more than three decades, the Caspian Sea Monster
has been on the move again. One of the most eye-catching flying machines
ever built, it's completing what could be its final journey.

In July of this year after 14 hours at sea, a flotilla of three tugs and
two escort vessels maneuvered slowly along the shores of the Caspian Sea to
deliver their bulky special cargo to its destination
<https://edition.cnn.com/travel/destinations>, a stretch of coast near
Russia's southernmost point.

It's here, next to the ancient city of Derbent, in Russia's republic of
Dagestan, that the 380-ton "Lun-class Ekranoplan" has found its new, and
most likely definitive, home.
The last of its breed to sail the waters of the Caspian, "Lun" was
abandoned after the 1990s collapse of the Soviet Union, condemned to rust
away at Kaspiysk naval base, some 100 kilometers (62 miles) up the coast
from Derbent."

The plane weighs more than a 747! There are drones and planes now under
construction using the same "ground effect" principle. I would suspect
China is considering building something along these lines, for the future
invasion of Taiwan.

https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/caspian-sea-monster-ekranoplan/index.html
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201103/ffff198e/attachment.htm>

From ben at zaiboc.net  Tue Nov  3 13:18:31 2020
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 13:18:31 +0000
Subject: [ExI] what did we learn?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.64.1604381684.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.64.1604381684.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <8b910b91-4c82-5f14-7428-97428601dc06@zaiboc.net>

On 03/11/2020 05:34, Mike Dougherty wrote:
>
>
>     "I haven't decided if this anthropomorphic Humanity is a "terrible
>     twos"
>     baby or a pubescent tween.? Too bad we don't have an older sibling
>     role
>     model.? :)"
>
>     Exactly. I'm no more suggesting we 'ban the internet' (as you say, a
>     silly idea) than you would suggest imprisoning babies or pubescent
>     youths because of their immaturity.
>
>
> I guess my point was more in line with scapegoating the internet as an 
> obvious solution once it's identified as THE cause of our current woes.

Maybe I was too clickbait-y, and sidetracked myself. What I was supposed 
to be suggesting was: What if it's our /use/ of the internet (not the 
internet itself) that's the biggest problem? Analogy with fire. Or 
knives. Or just about any technology, really.

"All we have to do to solve our current woes is "ban" the internet"

 ??? That doesn't follow, ...

"Of course it follows.? If the source of our current woes is drunk 
driving, we ban drinking and therefore the problem is solved.? It's 
really very simple when there is a single cause to a complex problem."

'Banning the internet' only follows if you're a politician or 
journalist. They seem to be the main people who think (or behave as 
though they think) things are that simple.

I think the equivalent here is banning driving (the technology), not 
banning drinking (the behaviour). And of course, in practice, we don't 
ban either, we ban the specific combination of driving while drunk.


And I think I'd prefer "All we have to do to solve our current woes is 
'ban' the internet". Using escape characters would probably escape most 
people, and they'd just think they were typos.

-- 
Ben Zaiboc

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201103/1620ec19/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 13:25:00 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 21:25:00 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Useless Self-Help Guide Offers Ludicrous Solutions to
 Everyday Problems
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy2N-q9RiNqZXRn6b439Tsu=7x+rQG1HLiycUrfpAOHexA@mail.gmail.com>

"Have you ever wondered how to predict the weather, land an airplane onto a
moving train, or knock a drone out of the sky with sports equipment?
Randall Munroe, creator of the popular science webcomic xkcd, has a new
book that presents outrageous solutions for a broad range of problems, from
the mundane to the unusual.

In "How To: Absurd Scientific Advice for Common Real-World Problems"
(Penguin Random House, 2019), Munroe tackles challenges that are often a
part of everyday life. He shared highlights from the book with a rapt
audience at New York Comic Con on Oct. 3.

Be forewarned: None of his suggestions is easy ? in fact, they're about as
convoluted and complicated as possible. Let's say you want *to cross a
river* <https://www.livescience.com/20961-olympic-torch-zipline.html>,
which you could accomplish by simply swimming across. Munroe offers
interesting but less practical options: jumping the river in a car;
freezing the water or boiling it away; and flying from bank to bank on a
string of kites. And he uses science to explain how each of these options
might be possible (if not necessarily practical).

"I'm one of those people who always comes up with impractical solutions to
things ? but usually, I'm not trying to come up with an impractical
solution," Munroe told Live Science. Rather, he's looking for timesavers
for tasks that are boring and repetitive "something that would take a
little while now to get set up, but once I did it could actually save me
time in the long run," he explained.

"And whenever I find myself thinking 'save me time in the long run,' I know
I'm about to do something that will definitely take up more time than it
could possibly save," he said."

A must have book!  :  )
https://www.livescience.com/how-to-randall-munroe.html
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201103/dfcea64b/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 14:54:06 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 08:54:06 -0600
Subject: [ExI] all you wanted to know about masks
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaez8FD0sb1Xe43KLgLiCpicotis-xx3BtgZwnVqROJeA@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/10/30/science/wear-mask-covid-particles-ul.html?campaign_id=34&emc=edit_sc_20201103&instance_id=23724&nl=science-times&regi_id=64159776&segment_id=43307&te=1&user_id=5e71139b79ab1433d07710d8f88356c8
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201103/47f62160/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 15:02:48 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 23:02:48 +0800
Subject: [ExI] The Simpsons weighs in on the election!
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1BKDOJVv4=7W86a4N2fUTSMck0qGfn9O-Cp_rLp2CiXg@mail.gmail.com>

 The Simpsons Treehouse of Horror XXXI Halloween Special intro shows what
happens when Homer forgets to vote! Lol

"If you are a Republican, you will need three forms of ID, but if you are a
Democrat, you will need twelve!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSstUEovYmA
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201103/53411715/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Nov  3 16:29:42 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 08:29:42 -0800
Subject: [ExI] what did we learn?
In-Reply-To: <8b910b91-4c82-5f14-7428-97428601dc06@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.64.1604381684.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <8b910b91-4c82-5f14-7428-97428601dc06@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <009c01d6b1fe$897bcd90$9c7368b0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Ben
Zaiboc via extropy-chat
.

 

>>.I guess my point was more in line with scapegoating the internet as an
obvious solution once it's identified as THE cause of our current woes.


>.Maybe I was too clickbait-y, and sidetracked myself. What I was supposed
to be suggesting was: What if it's our use of the internet (not the internet
itself) that's the biggest problem? Analogy with fire. Or knives. Or just
about any technology, really.

.

-- 
>.Ben Zaiboc
 
I have changed the way I use the internet in just the past year.  We
understand how good news agencies have become at tuning their message to
their audience.  Everything became politics, celebrities and news of the
weird.  But that isn't really what our world is about.  Those things are an
aspect of it perhaps, but not really what is happening.  If we over-focus on
politics, celebrities and news of the weird, we get a distorted view of the
world.
 
spike
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201103/3108a5ad/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 17:00:59 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 11:00:59 -0600
Subject: [ExI] what did we learn?
In-Reply-To: <009c01d6b1fe$897bcd90$9c7368b0$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.64.1604381684.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <8b910b91-4c82-5f14-7428-97428601dc06@zaiboc.net>
 <009c01d6b1fe$897bcd90$9c7368b0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaOSnQiQJBHXZ0RoawkSgsmMy7Y=A2Hfz2d32yn2sB5Cg@mail.gmail.com>

I have changed the way I use the internet in just the past year.  We
understand how good news agencies have become at tuning their message
to their audience.  Everything became politics, celebrities and news
of the weird.  But that isn?t really what our world is about.  Those
things are an aspect of it perhaps, but not really what is happening.
If we over-focus on politics, celebrities and news of the weird, we
get a distorted view of the world.



spike*   OK - good - so what are the alternatives for the average
person?    bill w*



On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 10:32 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat
> *?*
>
>
>
> >>?I guess my point was more in line with scapegoating the internet as an
> obvious solution once it's identified as THE cause of our current woes.
>
>
> >?Maybe I was too clickbait-y, and sidetracked myself. What I was supposed
> to be suggesting was: What if it's our *use* of the internet (not the
> internet itself) that's the biggest problem? Analogy with fire. Or knives.
> Or just about any technology, really.
>
> ?
>
> --
>
> >?Ben Zaiboc
>
>
>
> I have changed the way I use the internet in just the past year.  We understand how good news agencies have become at tuning their message to their audience.  Everything became politics, celebrities and news of the weird.  But that isn?t really what our world is about.  Those things are an aspect of it perhaps, but not really what is happening.  If we over-focus on politics, celebrities and news of the weird, we get a distorted view of the world.
>
>
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201103/436f0113/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Nov  3 17:23:44 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 09:23:44 -0800
Subject: [ExI] what did we learn?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaOSnQiQJBHXZ0RoawkSgsmMy7Y=A2Hfz2d32yn2sB5Cg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.64.1604381684.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <8b910b91-4c82-5f14-7428-97428601dc06@zaiboc.net>
 <009c01d6b1fe$897bcd90$9c7368b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEaOSnQiQJBHXZ0RoawkSgsmMy7Y=A2Hfz2d32yn2sB5Cg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002c01d6b206$156f6c60$404e4520$@rainier66.com>

 

 

> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] what did we learn?

 

 
I have changed the way I use the internet in just the past year.  We understand how good news agencies have become at tuning their message to their audience.  Everything became politics, celebrities and news of the weird.  But that isn?t really what our world is about.  Those things are an aspect of it perhaps, but not really what is happening.  If we over-focus on politics, celebrities and news of the weird, we get a distorted view of the world.
 
spike   OK - good - so what are the alternatives for the average person?    bill w

 

 

Hi BillW, filter your sources more carefully.  Do as John suggested: find some sites that are not trying to sell you something.  Learn about something real rather than listen to the ramblings of a bunch of overhyped failed Hollywood stars who majored in? journalism.  Most of the news people went to an actual university and majored in? journalism.  They needed four years of college to learn how to write a news article?  Why?  And why didn?t they ever learn to do one there?  I can do better than their silly efforts with no journalism degree at all.

 

Do you wish to feed your mind on driven generated by those who majored in? journalism?  Neither do I.

 

spike

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201103/3a0efd80/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 17:34:12 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 11:34:12 -0600
Subject: [ExI] what did we learn?
In-Reply-To: <002c01d6b206$156f6c60$404e4520$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.64.1604381684.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <8b910b91-4c82-5f14-7428-97428601dc06@zaiboc.net>
 <009c01d6b1fe$897bcd90$9c7368b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEaOSnQiQJBHXZ0RoawkSgsmMy7Y=A2Hfz2d32yn2sB5Cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <002c01d6b206$156f6c60$404e4520$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEa+fQ79FSLi-yQqxbRb+0LKemfSSM9HudyOcYiEOFkEKA@mail.gmail.com>

Spike, I read journalists fairly often.  I look to them for facts and
opinions, not as a source of what to believe.  A great many things I read
about I wind up with no opinion at all, because it would take so much
research to find out all the facts and evaluate different views that I just
give up.  In any case, there are very few instances in which I need to take
some action.  The big questions,like global warming, I read about a bit,
but leave to experts.  I have no votes.

You like Reason?  What makes them superior?  Because you agree with them
the most?  We have to look out for this persistent bias.

bill w

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 11:25 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] what did we learn?
>
>
>
>
>
> I have changed the way I use the internet in just the past year.  We understand how good news agencies have become at tuning their message to their audience.  Everything became politics, celebrities and news of the weird.  But that isn?t really what our world is about.  Those things are an aspect of it perhaps, but not really what is happening.  If we over-focus on politics, celebrities and news of the weird, we get a distorted view of the world.
>
>
>
> spike*   OK - good - so what are the alternatives for the average person?    bill w*
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi BillW, filter your sources more carefully.  Do as John suggested: find
> some sites that are not trying to sell you something.  Learn about
> something real rather than listen to the ramblings of a bunch of overhyped
> failed Hollywood stars who majored in? journalism.  Most of the news people
> went to an actual university and majored in? journalism.  They needed four
> years of college to learn how to write a news article?  Why?  And why
> didn?t they ever learn to do one there?  I can do better than their silly
> efforts with no journalism degree at all.
>
>
>
> Do you wish to feed your mind on driven generated by those who majored in?
> journalism?  Neither do I.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201103/3380064f/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 17:44:18 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 11:44:18 -0600
Subject: [ExI] the future gets uglier
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYRHKHLz7tQH-BkEtwzPcKi2h__Dx-P0Xp9Deuw=r7gBQ@mail.gmail.com>

Companies are apparently getting tired of paying social media ?influencers?
big bucks to tout their products. Enter artificial intelligence. Japanese
startup Aww Inc. has introduced Imma, whose bright pink hair and ?goofy
dance moves? brought her 300,000 followers on Instagram ? and landed the
company seven figures in seed funding to develop more bots, including
Imma?s ?brother,? Plustic Boy. The company says Imma was actually started
as an art project, but companies wanted to sponsor her. Virtual influencers
?have real business potential,? says Christopher Travers, who runs a
website reporting on the trend. ?They are cheaper to work with than humans
in the long term, are 100% controllable, can appear in many places at once,
and, most importantly, they never age or die.?   bill w
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201103/af9d568d/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 17:56:24 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 01:56:24 +0800
Subject: [ExI] what did we learn?
In-Reply-To: <002c01d6b206$156f6c60$404e4520$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.64.1604381684.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <8b910b91-4c82-5f14-7428-97428601dc06@zaiboc.net>
 <009c01d6b1fe$897bcd90$9c7368b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEaOSnQiQJBHXZ0RoawkSgsmMy7Y=A2Hfz2d32yn2sB5Cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <002c01d6b206$156f6c60$404e4520$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy11APJYgR7U76yWeAh1i392Vkk4Gwt9HT8YxbAjpNs3Dw@mail.gmail.com>

"Hi BillW, filter your sources more carefully.  Do as John suggested: find
some sites that are not trying to sell you something.  Learn about
something real rather than listen to the ramblings of a bunch of overhyped
failed Hollywood stars who majored in? journalism.  Most of the news people
went to an actual university and majored in? journalism.  They needed four
years of college to learn how to write a news article?  Why?  And why
didn?t they ever learn to do one there?  I can do better than their silly
efforts with no journalism degree at all.



Do you wish to feed your mind on drivel generated by those who majored in?
journalism?  Neither do I."


Dang! And here I thought people only picked on English majors! Lol


https://www.prairiehome.org/story/1997/06/14/the-lives-of-english-majors.html



On Wed, Nov 4, 2020 at 1:25 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] what did we learn?
>
>
>
>
>
> I have changed the way I use the internet in just the past year.  We understand how good news agencies have become at tuning their message to their audience.  Everything became politics, celebrities and news of the weird.  But that isn?t really what our world is about.  Those things are an aspect of it perhaps, but not really what is happening.  If we over-focus on politics, celebrities and news of the weird, we get a distorted view of the world.
>
>
>
> spike*   OK - good - so what are the alternatives for the average person?    bill w*
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi BillW, filter your sources more carefully.  Do as John suggested: find
> some sites that are not trying to sell you something.  Learn about
> something real rather than listen to the ramblings of a bunch of overhyped
> failed Hollywood stars who majored in? journalism.  Most of the news people
> went to an actual university and majored in? journalism.  They needed four
> years of college to learn how to write a news article?  Why?  And why
> didn?t they ever learn to do one there?  I can do better than their silly
> efforts with no journalism degree at all.
>
>
>
> Do you wish to feed your mind on driven generated by those who majored in?
> journalism?  Neither do I.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201104/9efa2e1d/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 17:58:46 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 01:58:46 +0800
Subject: [ExI] the future gets uglier
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYRHKHLz7tQH-BkEtwzPcKi2h__Dx-P0Xp9Deuw=r7gBQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYRHKHLz7tQH-BkEtwzPcKi2h__Dx-P0Xp9Deuw=r7gBQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1-CAeF=VedG9JassJMG2pfGS94ZE6spSEPw+oPHy_AEw@mail.gmail.com>

What you describe sounds like this 2002 film...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuAjeuKXX7c

On Wed, Nov 4, 2020 at 1:46 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Companies are apparently getting tired of paying social media
> ?influencers? big bucks to tout their products. Enter artificial
> intelligence. Japanese startup Aww Inc. has introduced Imma, whose bright
> pink hair and ?goofy dance moves? brought her 300,000 followers on
> Instagram ? and landed the company seven figures in seed funding to develop
> more bots, including Imma?s ?brother,? Plustic Boy. The company says Imma
> was actually started as an art project, but companies wanted to sponsor
> her. Virtual influencers ?have real business potential,? says Christopher
> Travers, who runs a website reporting on the trend. ?They are cheaper to
> work with than humans in the long term, are 100% controllable, can appear
> in many places at once, and, most importantly, they never age or die.?
>  bill w
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201104/d6119b13/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Nov  3 17:58:50 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 09:58:50 -0800
Subject: [ExI] what did we learn?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEa+fQ79FSLi-yQqxbRb+0LKemfSSM9HudyOcYiEOFkEKA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.64.1604381684.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <8b910b91-4c82-5f14-7428-97428601dc06@zaiboc.net>
 <009c01d6b1fe$897bcd90$9c7368b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEaOSnQiQJBHXZ0RoawkSgsmMy7Y=A2Hfz2d32yn2sB5Cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <002c01d6b206$156f6c60$404e4520$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa+fQ79FSLi-yQqxbRb+0LKemfSSM9HudyOcYiEOFkEKA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005501d6b20a$fcfd15b0$f6f74110$@rainier66.com>

 

 

> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat

Subject: Re: [ExI] what did we learn?

 

>?Spike, I read journalists fairly often?

 

Ja, common ailment in our benighted times, me lad.

 

>?I look to them for facts and opinions?

 

They are a good source for neither.

 

>?not as a source of what to believe?

 

That?s a start.  We don?t need them.  News should be written by scientists and technology people.  All of it.

 

 >?A great many things I read about I wind up with no opinion at all, because it would take so much research to find out all the facts and evaluate different views that I just give up?

 

Ja same here.  I gave up on them some time ago.  I browse occasionally for entertainment value.

 

>?In any case, there are very few instances in which I need to take some action.  The big questions,like global warming, I read about a bit, but leave to experts.  I have no votes?

 

None of us do BillW but do think on that question early and often.  Reason: in our current numbers, humans need energy sources.  Study up on how much land would be covered and where it would be covered if we go with renewable energy sources such as wind and solar.  Note that falling water is already exploited to its capacity with very few exceptions.  So our fully renewables are wind and solar.  

 

Once we get that, and we get that wind and solar are both enormously environmentally unfriendly as well as bad neighbors? we are on the way to recognizing we have two major alternatives, BillW, only two major alternatives, only two: fossil fuels and nukes.  

 

There are plenty of arguments about coal and fracking and dependence on foreign bad actors with regard to energy, but keep in mind these are all fossil fuels, and we already know those are dirty and create a lot of carbon dioxide.  Everybody gets that.

 

In general the renewables are intermittent and most of the populated parts of the globe are unsuitable for it.  So they are not desirable baseload carriers.  For baseload carriers, we have only fossil fuels and nukes.  Only those two options for the baseload carriers.

 

Do pardon my repetition, but until we filter away the noise and focus on these matters, we can?t even start to solve the really big problem facing our species: we need energy, we need lots of it.  The fully renewables cannot and will not carry the baseload in the foreseeable.  So we have fossil fuels and nukes.  We either burn something or we nuke something.  

 

Journalism majors are not intellectually equipped to grasp this fundamental concept, which is why they get all tangled up in trivial political matters.

 

 

>?You like Reason?  What makes them superior?  Because you agree with them the most?  We have to look out for this persistent bias.  bill w

 

I like Reason because they recognize that government cannot and will not solve our energy problem.  Markets must solve our energy problem.

 

News should be written by scientists and technology people.  All of it.

 

spike

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201103/307e934a/attachment-0001.htm>

From dsunley at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 18:01:40 2020
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 11:01:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] the future gets uglier
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy1-CAeF=VedG9JassJMG2pfGS94ZE6spSEPw+oPHy_AEw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYRHKHLz7tQH-BkEtwzPcKi2h__Dx-P0Xp9Deuw=r7gBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy1-CAeF=VedG9JassJMG2pfGS94ZE6spSEPw+oPHy_AEw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEptUkRazw8mxBOW7+TGjGDgbyK_9Y+wvb=iWQ6O3WK52hzBZg@mail.gmail.com>

Or the B-plot in this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnJxoPQXJOQ

Forget flying cars, where are my bipedal humanoid transforming fighter
jets!?

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 10:58 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> What you describe sounds like this 2002 film...
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuAjeuKXX7c
>
> On Wed, Nov 4, 2020 at 1:46 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Companies are apparently getting tired of paying social media
>> ?influencers? big bucks to tout their products. Enter artificial
>> intelligence. Japanese startup Aww Inc. has introduced Imma, whose bright
>> pink hair and ?goofy dance moves? brought her 300,000 followers on
>> Instagram ? and landed the company seven figures in seed funding to develop
>> more bots, including Imma?s ?brother,? Plustic Boy. The company says Imma
>> was actually started as an art project, but companies wanted to sponsor
>> her. Virtual influencers ?have real business potential,? says Christopher
>> Travers, who runs a website reporting on the trend. ?They are cheaper to
>> work with than humans in the long term, are 100% controllable, can appear
>> in many places at once, and, most importantly, they never age or die.?
>>  bill w
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201103/51038756/attachment.htm>

From bronto at pobox.com  Tue Nov  3 17:31:17 2020
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 09:31:17 -0800
Subject: [ExI] How do you make new discoveries about what's available on
 the internet?
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy0WhA+keAZGguoo3NLo3Cg3X14cgHp4i+MgSCQQbMD_Hw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy3+LMyunVe6kXwDU7p3pr9qM=VUu-_S4ysR=bD9XDiO4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSPQg2-=zGHHZzc95ysfv8vb_w8b3X7P0VzX+PWrryGLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <007401d6b13c$49a40b50$dcec21f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAGSKFy0WhA+keAZGguoo3NLo3Cg3X14cgHp4i+MgSCQQbMD_Hw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <18780930-798b-d684-57f9-a39ab975a296@pobox.com>

On 2020-11-02 18:46, John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote:
> Looking over Slashdot reminded me that a huge Phoenix area electronics 
> store, Fry's Electronics, went out of business, even before the pandemic 
> hit. I used to love going there and taking in the atmosphere.

In 2006?8 I would pass Fry's in Fremont on my way to work.  A fun place.

A few years ago I passed through Seattle and visited a Fry's; it was 
clearly dying.  What can replace it?

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org



From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Nov  3 18:14:24 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 10:14:24 -0800
Subject: [ExI] what did we learn?
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy11APJYgR7U76yWeAh1i392Vkk4Gwt9HT8YxbAjpNs3Dw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.64.1604381684.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <8b910b91-4c82-5f14-7428-97428601dc06@zaiboc.net>
 <009c01d6b1fe$897bcd90$9c7368b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEaOSnQiQJBHXZ0RoawkSgsmMy7Y=A2Hfz2d32yn2sB5Cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <002c01d6b206$156f6c60$404e4520$@rainier66.com>
 <CAGSKFy11APJYgR7U76yWeAh1i392Vkk4Gwt9HT8YxbAjpNs3Dw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007301d6b20d$29bd9e60$7d38db20$@rainier66.com>

 

 

>? On Behalf Of John Grigg via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] what did we learn?

 

>>?"Hi BillW, filter your sources more carefully?Do you wish to feed your mind on drivel generated by those who majored in? journalism?  Neither do I."

>..Dang! And here I thought people only picked on English majors! Lol 

Picked on?  I have no heartburn with English majors.  Many of them go into teaching, which is a most admirable aim in life.  I like English majors.  They cause no harm that I can see.  Journalism majors on the other hand, have a scandalously disproportionate influence on society and in my opinion generally a corrosive one.

Any picking on that I do does not apply to English majors, but is sincere ridicule and scorn, specifically aimed at journalism majors.  That?s not a legitimate field of study in my opinion.  News should be written by scientists, technologists and engineers.  There is sufficient talent there, and far greater insights.

>?https://www.prairiehome.org/story/1997/06/14/the-lives-of-english-majors.html

There ya go, Garrison Keillor was an English major.  He has given us so much.  There?s a life well lived.  He goes on about Dave Barry, the writer who influenced my style considerably, also an English major.

spike

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201103/20663919/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 18:28:40 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 12:28:40 -0600
Subject: [ExI] the future gets uglier
In-Reply-To: <CAEptUkRazw8mxBOW7+TGjGDgbyK_9Y+wvb=iWQ6O3WK52hzBZg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYRHKHLz7tQH-BkEtwzPcKi2h__Dx-P0Xp9Deuw=r7gBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy1-CAeF=VedG9JassJMG2pfGS94ZE6spSEPw+oPHy_AEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkRazw8mxBOW7+TGjGDgbyK_9Y+wvb=iWQ6O3WK52hzBZg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEb2+aRt_bXB3X-++b5xJGAeBMYL8zrVJ39+8S3Jftcp7A@mail.gmail.com>

Again I have to apologize for not naming my sources.  This is from the
Premium version of This Is True.   bill w

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 12:15 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Or the B-plot in this:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnJxoPQXJOQ
>
> Forget flying cars, where are my bipedal humanoid transforming fighter
> jets!?
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 10:58 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> What you describe sounds like this 2002 film...
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuAjeuKXX7c
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 4, 2020 at 1:46 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Companies are apparently getting tired of paying social media
>>> ?influencers? big bucks to tout their products. Enter artificial
>>> intelligence. Japanese startup Aww Inc. has introduced Imma, whose bright
>>> pink hair and ?goofy dance moves? brought her 300,000 followers on
>>> Instagram ? and landed the company seven figures in seed funding to develop
>>> more bots, including Imma?s ?brother,? Plustic Boy. The company says Imma
>>> was actually started as an art project, but companies wanted to sponsor
>>> her. Virtual influencers ?have real business potential,? says Christopher
>>> Travers, who runs a website reporting on the trend. ?They are cheaper to
>>> work with than humans in the long term, are 100% controllable, can appear
>>> in many places at once, and, most importantly, they never age or die.?
>>>  bill w
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201103/5806fa2c/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Nov  3 18:33:37 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 10:33:37 -0800
Subject: [ExI] How do you make new discoveries about what's available on
 the internet?
In-Reply-To: <18780930-798b-d684-57f9-a39ab975a296@pobox.com>
References: <CAGSKFy3+LMyunVe6kXwDU7p3pr9qM=VUu-_S4ysR=bD9XDiO4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSPQg2-=zGHHZzc95ysfv8vb_w8b3X7P0VzX+PWrryGLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <007401d6b13c$49a40b50$dcec21f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAGSKFy0WhA+keAZGguoo3NLo3Cg3X14cgHp4i+MgSCQQbMD_Hw@mail.gmail.com>
 <18780930-798b-d684-57f9-a39ab975a296@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <009d01d6b20f$d8b51d10$8a1f5730$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat
...

>...In 2006?8 I would pass Fry's in Fremont on my way to work.  A fun place.

>...A few years ago I passed through Seattle and visited a Fry's; it was clearly dying.  What can replace it?

--
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org


_______________________________________________


Anton that Fry's is still there.  Nothing can replace it.  But something will anyway.

spike



From sparge at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 18:36:20 2020
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 13:36:20 -0500
Subject: [ExI] what did we learn?
In-Reply-To: <005501d6b20a$fcfd15b0$f6f74110$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.64.1604381684.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <8b910b91-4c82-5f14-7428-97428601dc06@zaiboc.net>
 <009c01d6b1fe$897bcd90$9c7368b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEaOSnQiQJBHXZ0RoawkSgsmMy7Y=A2Hfz2d32yn2sB5Cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <002c01d6b206$156f6c60$404e4520$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa+fQ79FSLi-yQqxbRb+0LKemfSSM9HudyOcYiEOFkEKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <005501d6b20a$fcfd15b0$f6f74110$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2enGm4vGw7z3T4zS58jBhZincHewhe6bwdP_HizzUhOMA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 1:04 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> News should be written by scientists and technology people.  All of it.
>

Sounds kinda like what theconversation.com is about:

https://theconversation.com/us/who-we-are

Who we are
The Conversation US arose out of deep-seated concerns for the fading
quality of our public discourse ? and recognition of the vital role that
academic experts can play in the public arena.

Independent and not-for-profit, it is part of a global network of newsrooms
first launched in Australia in 2011. The Conversation began its US
operations in 2014, and now also publishes in Canada, the UK, France,
Indonesia, Africa, Spain as well as Australia.

The Conversation?s mission is particularly resonant in the U.S., where
people universally sense that the country?s social fabric is strained and
the common ground people share is shrinking.

Information always has been essential to democracy ? a societal good, like
clean water. But many now find it difficult to put their trust in the
media. And with little consensus about what to believe, it only becomes
harder to reach agreement with fellow citizens regarding what?s truthful.

The Conversation US seeks to be part of the solution to this problem.

The Conversation?s editorial process is deliberate and collaborative.
Editors pay close attention to the news environment to identify the issues
citizens are concerned about. They reach out to leading scholars across
academia and work with them to unlock their knowledge for the broad public.

Through a Creative Commons license, we share Conversation US articles ? at
no charge to news organizations ? across the geographic and ideological
spectrum. We pay particular attention to strengthening news organizations
that are severely under-resourced. The Associated Press distributes The
Conversation US articles daily to thousands of newsrooms.

Importantly, The Conversation US is committed to information transparency
and credibility. Authors are only allowed to write on a subject on which
they have proven expertise. They must sign a disclosure statement outlining
any relevant funding or affiliations. We ourselves disclose all of The
Conversation US? funders on our homepage and elsewhere. Our goals are
summed up in our editorial charter.

Our approach has hit a responsive chord: The Conversation US articles were
read over 99 million times in 2019, a figure surpassed in the first seven
months of 2020. Today, The Conversation US has relationships with scholars
at more than 900 colleges and universities and has published more than
11,000 articles sharing their expertise on subjects from astronomy to
Zoroastrianism.

If you are an academic interested in writing for us, please send us a pitch.

Our major funding comes from the generous support of foundations and
universities, for which we are grateful. If you value The Conversation?s
journalism, we would appreciate your donation.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201103/86ec5a6a/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 18:38:00 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 12:38:00 -0600
Subject: [ExI] what did we learn?
In-Reply-To: <007301d6b20d$29bd9e60$7d38db20$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.64.1604381684.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <8b910b91-4c82-5f14-7428-97428601dc06@zaiboc.net>
 <009c01d6b1fe$897bcd90$9c7368b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEaOSnQiQJBHXZ0RoawkSgsmMy7Y=A2Hfz2d32yn2sB5Cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <002c01d6b206$156f6c60$404e4520$@rainier66.com>
 <CAGSKFy11APJYgR7U76yWeAh1i392Vkk4Gwt9HT8YxbAjpNs3Dw@mail.gmail.com>
 <007301d6b20d$29bd9e60$7d38db20$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEb2fQ0TdT7vNpqahER6Ycvz3Q44T_C84noS31TWVXr_Tw@mail.gmail.com>

Here is the problem with scientists writing anything for publication:
Waffling. Aren't you tired of reading scientific articles and finding
something to the effect at the end of "more research is needed".  People
want facts.  They don't want to wait for more studies, all of which will
say 'more studies' again and again.  Yes, that science.  Reasonable.
Skeptical. Frustrating.

Imagine passing on science news:'Hey Joe, it could very well be that
.....blah blah blah - or on the other hand it could be     blah blah - or
maybe even ....blah, but we really don't know now. Stay tuned.  We need
more subjects, more different subjects, more researchers who don't believe
in what they are testing, more researchers who have no connections with
industry, better statistics, ad nauseam.    bill w

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 12:26 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *>?* *On Behalf Of *John Grigg via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] what did we learn?
>
>
>
> >>?"Hi BillW, filter your sources more carefully?Do you wish to feed your
> mind on drivel generated by those who majored in? journalism?  Neither do
> I."
>
> >..Dang! And here I thought people only picked on English majors! Lol
>
> Picked on?  I have no heartburn with English majors.  Many of them go into
> teaching, which is a most admirable aim in life.  I like English majors.
> They cause no harm that I can see.  Journalism majors on the other hand,
> have a scandalously disproportionate influence on society and in my opinion
> generally a corrosive one.
>
> Any picking on that I do does not apply to English majors, but is sincere
> ridicule and scorn, specifically aimed at journalism majors.  That?s not a
> legitimate field of study in my opinion.  News should be written by
> scientists, technologists and engineers.  There is sufficient talent there,
> and far greater insights.
>
> >?
> https://www.prairiehome.org/story/1997/06/14/the-lives-of-english-majors.html
>
> There ya go, Garrison Keillor was an English major.  He has given us so
> much.  There?s a life well lived.  He goes on about Dave Barry, the writer
> who influenced my style considerably, also an English major.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201103/233ed232/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Nov  3 19:14:40 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 11:14:40 -0800
Subject: [ExI] what did we learn?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEb2fQ0TdT7vNpqahER6Ycvz3Q44T_C84noS31TWVXr_Tw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.64.1604381684.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <8b910b91-4c82-5f14-7428-97428601dc06@zaiboc.net>
 <009c01d6b1fe$897bcd90$9c7368b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEaOSnQiQJBHXZ0RoawkSgsmMy7Y=A2Hfz2d32yn2sB5Cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <002c01d6b206$156f6c60$404e4520$@rainier66.com>
 <CAGSKFy11APJYgR7U76yWeAh1i392Vkk4Gwt9HT8YxbAjpNs3Dw@mail.gmail.com>
 <007301d6b20d$29bd9e60$7d38db20$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEb2fQ0TdT7vNpqahER6Ycvz3Q44T_C84noS31TWVXr_Tw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00c101d6b215$94e71d80$beb55880$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] what did we learn?

 

>?Here is the problem with scientists writing anything for publication:  Waffling?

 

Ja.  We need more waffling.  We don?t know what the future holds.  We see plenty of reasons to be nuanced in our opinions (well not mine of course: my opinions are all based entirely on FACT!  (But everyone else?s should be nuanced.))  Scientists and tech people get this.

 

>?Aren't you tired of reading scientific articles and finding something to the effect at the end of "more research is needed"?

 

No.  I am tired of journalism majors offering opinion as fact and telling us everything is settled.  It isn?t.

 

>?People want facts.  They don't want to wait for more studies, all of which will say 'more studies' again and again?

 

Ja.  I want more studies.  Truth becomes truthier over time. 

 

>?Yes, that science.  Reasonable.  Skeptical. Frustrating? bill w

 

Ja, it?s the kind of frustration I like.

 

spike

 

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201103/e6b906f5/attachment.htm>

From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 19:19:47 2020
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 19:19:47 +0000
Subject: [ExI] what did we learn?
In-Reply-To: <007301d6b20d$29bd9e60$7d38db20$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.64.1604381684.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <8b910b91-4c82-5f14-7428-97428601dc06@zaiboc.net>
 <009c01d6b1fe$897bcd90$9c7368b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEaOSnQiQJBHXZ0RoawkSgsmMy7Y=A2Hfz2d32yn2sB5Cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <002c01d6b206$156f6c60$404e4520$@rainier66.com>
 <CAGSKFy11APJYgR7U76yWeAh1i392Vkk4Gwt9HT8YxbAjpNs3Dw@mail.gmail.com>
 <007301d6b20d$29bd9e60$7d38db20$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armis-yt7YVswAWWEWLL7fOsXEg+s+bRdYDr47Q-hvLXiAg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 3 Nov 2020 at 18:27, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Picked on?  I have no heartburn with English majors.  Many of them go into teaching, which is a most admirable aim in life.  I like English majors.  They cause no harm that I can see.  Journalism majors on the other hand, have a scandalously disproportionate influence on society and in my opinion generally a corrosive one.
>
> Any picking on that I do does not apply to English majors, but is sincere ridicule and scorn, specifically aimed at journalism majors.  That?s not a legitimate field of study in my opinion.  News should be written by scientists, technologists and engineers.  There is sufficient talent there, and far greater insights.
>
> There ya go, Garrison Keillor was an English major.  He has given us so much.  There?s a life well lived.  He goes on about Dave Barry, the writer who influenced my style considerably, also an English major.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


Isn't it a bit unfair to complain about journalists?  For the big
media giants surely it is the billionaire owners that direct the
agenda of their media? The workers have to support the politics of the
owners or they lose their job.
Some journalists can work for lower wages on small independent
publications, but for a career, the big media giants have the money
and the prospects.



BillK


From ben at zaiboc.net  Tue Nov  3 19:22:47 2020
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 19:22:47 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Beyond Meat
In-Reply-To: <mailman.64.1604381684.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.64.1604381684.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <e5445018-31e6-69b6-2caf-b03ef35a16cf@zaiboc.net>

On 03/11/2020 05:34, Mike Dougherty wrote:
> Anyway, the thing i was actually trying to solicit thoughts about is 
> whether transhuman futures will be driven by those trying to leave 
> earth or by those trying to stay. 

Maybe both.

Although one scenario often offered as a solution to the problem of 
post-humans and baseline humans failing to coexist peacably on the same 
planet, is a rule that anyone who uploads has to get off the planet 
immediately afterwards.

Of course, in that scenario, the transhumanist future is all in space, 
and doesn't help the people left on earth (probably not true, thinking 
about it. For starters, it would make cheap energy a lot easier, plus 
lots of other things that would, even incidentally, benefit those 
left/trapped on earth).

I see no reason, though, why peaceful coexistence wouldn't be possible, 
and can imagine a future where uploads are developed, help to reverse 
whatever damage has been done to the environment/ecology/human 
civilisation, make life much better for those who choose to remain 
biological, and also drive expansion into space.

-- 
Ben Zaiboc


From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Nov  3 19:35:18 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 11:35:18 -0800
Subject: [ExI] what did we learn?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armis-yt7YVswAWWEWLL7fOsXEg+s+bRdYDr47Q-hvLXiAg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.64.1604381684.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <8b910b91-4c82-5f14-7428-97428601dc06@zaiboc.net>
 <009c01d6b1fe$897bcd90$9c7368b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEaOSnQiQJBHXZ0RoawkSgsmMy7Y=A2Hfz2d32yn2sB5Cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <002c01d6b206$156f6c60$404e4520$@rainier66.com>
 <CAGSKFy11APJYgR7U76yWeAh1i392Vkk4Gwt9HT8YxbAjpNs3Dw@mail.gmail.com>
 <007301d6b20d$29bd9e60$7d38db20$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armis-yt7YVswAWWEWLL7fOsXEg+s+bRdYDr47Q-hvLXiAg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00d501d6b218$76b1c790$641556b0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat


On Tue, 3 Nov 2020 at 18:27, spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Picked on?  I have no heartburn with English majors...
> Any picking on that I do does not apply to English majors, but is sincere ridicule and scorn, specifically aimed at journalism majors. ...
> _______________________________________________


>...Isn't it a bit unfair to complain about journalists?  For the big media giants surely it is the billionaire owners that direct the agenda of their media? The workers have to support the politics of the owners or they lose their job.
Some journalists can work for lower wages on small independent publications, but for a career, the big media giants have the money and the prospects.



BillK

_______________________________________________


Hi BillK, it isn't journalists that I disdain, but rather journalism majors.  

You recall how it was at the U: the fluffy-sluffy majors were out there on the quad partying and messing around, the engineers and STEM people were in their rooms studying.  If they even have anything analogous to that in the UK, good chance the same patterns hold there as it does here.

Journalism is the ultimate party-major.  How hard is it to write an article?  Do people need to study at the university for four years just to write articles?  We should find scientists and STEM people who know how to write, have the media giants hire them to write our news.  I don't want to be informed by yahoos who squandered their university years partying down on the quad.  I want to be informed by people who squandered their university years studying science and technology.

spike



From ben at zaiboc.net  Tue Nov  3 20:09:52 2020
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 20:09:52 +0000
Subject: [ExI] fossil fuels and nukes (was: Re:  what did we learn?)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.66.1604426345.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.66.1604426345.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <1013ebec-9982-772b-4766-0ace9b8fcc2c@zaiboc.net>

On 03/11/2020 17:59, Spike wrote:
> we have only fossil fuels and nukes

I agree with that, regarding what we already know how to do, but what do 
you reckon about Space-Based Solar Power?

To my mind, that has to be the ultimate (barring new physics) power 
source. It's fusion power, already solved for us by nature. All we need 
to do is harvest it (I completely agree about ground-based solar power, 
it can never be a baseload power source).

-- 
Ben Zaiboc

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201103/94e7db02/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 20:35:46 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 14:35:46 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Beyond Meat
In-Reply-To: <e5445018-31e6-69b6-2caf-b03ef35a16cf@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.64.1604381684.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <e5445018-31e6-69b6-2caf-b03ef35a16cf@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZLSZz8vnOn4rjp6CPqOCSSB3TwffZ+JLQLvdYRw0czTw@mail.gmail.com>

Y'all do realize that most people believe in God, right?  So uploading is
going to be regarded as extremely unnatural, and getting classified as a
person is going to be really difficult.  When it happens there'd better be
plenty of backup, because the uploads are going to get turned off, if many
people have their say, or take matters into their own hands.   bill w

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 1:34 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On 03/11/2020 05:34, Mike Dougherty wrote:
> > Anyway, the thing i was actually trying to solicit thoughts about is
> > whether transhuman futures will be driven by those trying to leave
> > earth or by those trying to stay.
>
> Maybe both.
>
> Although one scenario often offered as a solution to the problem of
> post-humans and baseline humans failing to coexist peacably on the same
> planet, is a rule that anyone who uploads has to get off the planet
> immediately afterwards.
>
> Of course, in that scenario, the transhumanist future is all in space,
> and doesn't help the people left on earth (probably not true, thinking
> about it. For starters, it would make cheap energy a lot easier, plus
> lots of other things that would, even incidentally, benefit those
> left/trapped on earth).
>
> I see no reason, though, why peaceful coexistence wouldn't be possible,
> and can imagine a future where uploads are developed, help to reverse
> whatever damage has been done to the environment/ecology/human
> civilisation, make life much better for those who choose to remain
> biological, and also drive expansion into space.
>
> --
> Ben Zaiboc
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201103/f958a155/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 20:39:25 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 14:39:25 -0600
Subject: [ExI] what did we learn?
In-Reply-To: <00d501d6b218$76b1c790$641556b0$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.64.1604381684.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <8b910b91-4c82-5f14-7428-97428601dc06@zaiboc.net>
 <009c01d6b1fe$897bcd90$9c7368b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEaOSnQiQJBHXZ0RoawkSgsmMy7Y=A2Hfz2d32yn2sB5Cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <002c01d6b206$156f6c60$404e4520$@rainier66.com>
 <CAGSKFy11APJYgR7U76yWeAh1i392Vkk4Gwt9HT8YxbAjpNs3Dw@mail.gmail.com>
 <007301d6b20d$29bd9e60$7d38db20$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armis-yt7YVswAWWEWLL7fOsXEg+s+bRdYDr47Q-hvLXiAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d501d6b218$76b1c790$641556b0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbLGHFe1fzx1f_G0xuASMuiWdZvx53ehtpLQX5nF8b67Q@mail.gmail.com>

I am giving theconversation.com a try.  Maybe you should.   bill w

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 1:41 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
> BillK via extropy-chat
>
>
> On Tue, 3 Nov 2020 at 18:27, spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > Picked on?  I have no heartburn with English majors...
> > Any picking on that I do does not apply to English majors, but is
> sincere ridicule and scorn, specifically aimed at journalism majors. ...
> > _______________________________________________
>
>
> >...Isn't it a bit unfair to complain about journalists?  For the big
> media giants surely it is the billionaire owners that direct the agenda of
> their media? The workers have to support the politics of the owners or they
> lose their job.
> Some journalists can work for lower wages on small independent
> publications, but for a career, the big media giants have the money and the
> prospects.
>
>
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Hi BillK, it isn't journalists that I disdain, but rather journalism
> majors.
>
> You recall how it was at the U: the fluffy-sluffy majors were out there on
> the quad partying and messing around, the engineers and STEM people were in
> their rooms studying.  If they even have anything analogous to that in the
> UK, good chance the same patterns hold there as it does here.
>
> Journalism is the ultimate party-major.  How hard is it to write an
> article?  Do people need to study at the university for four years just to
> write articles?  We should find scientists and STEM people who know how to
> write, have the media giants hire them to write our news.  I don't want to
> be informed by yahoos who squandered their university years partying down
> on the quad.  I want to be informed by people who squandered their
> university years studying science and technology.
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201103/45c2f97a/attachment-0001.htm>

From danust2012 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 21:18:11 2020
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 13:18:11 -0800
Subject: [ExI] The 'Caspian Sea Monster' rises from the grave
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy0Z1bxGja=UMaznL6P_QeF0YqCrdzf5uxgH74YxU4N63w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy0Z1bxGja=UMaznL6P_QeF0YqCrdzf5uxgH74YxU4N63w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4E2C6FE5-FBC0-408C-A31D-275D372481CF@gmail.com>

On Nov 3, 2020, at 5:06 AM, John Grigg via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:?
> 
> "Beached on the western shores of the Caspian Sea, it looks like a colossal aquatic beast -- a bizarre creation more at home in the deep than above the waves. It certainly doesn't look like something that could ever fly.But fly it did -- albeit a long time ago.
> 
> After lying dormant for more than three decades, the Caspian Sea Monster has been on the move again. One of the most eye-catching flying machines ever built, it's completing what could be its final journey.
> 
> In July of this year after 14 hours at sea, a flotilla of three tugs and two escort vessels maneuvered slowly along the shores of the Caspian Sea to deliver their bulky special cargo to its destination, a stretch of coast near Russia's southernmost point.
> 
> It's here, next to the ancient city of Derbent, in Russia's republic of Dagestan, that the 380-ton "Lun-class Ekranoplan" has found its new, and most likely definitive, home.
> The last of its breed to sail the waters of the Caspian, "Lun" was abandoned after the 1990s collapse of the Soviet Union, condemned to rust away at Kaspiysk naval base, some 100 kilometers (62 miles) up the coast from Derbent."
> 
> The plane weighs more than a 747! There are drones and planes now under construction using the same "ground effect" principle. I would suspect China is considering building something along these lines, for the future invasion of Taiwan.
> 
> https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/caspian-sea-monster-ekranoplan/index.html

A few years ago I saw a documentary on this plane on YouTube. Quite a sight. Reminds me vaguely of the British V bombers.

Regards,

Dan
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201103/6afae3bc/attachment.htm>

From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 21:57:09 2020
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 13:57:09 -0800
Subject: [ExI] the future gets uglier
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYRHKHLz7tQH-BkEtwzPcKi2h__Dx-P0Xp9Deuw=r7gBQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYRHKHLz7tQH-BkEtwzPcKi2h__Dx-P0Xp9Deuw=r7gBQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQNG1h8ZFsW+z+SfsuMQxXuR6JHUL+pJCsPb8Cg23XRAQ@mail.gmail.com>

See "vtubers" for a much lower-budget, but potentially larger impact,
version of this.  (Granted, there are real humans behind vtubers...for now,
but those parts could be digitized.)

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 9:45 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Companies are apparently getting tired of paying social media
> ?influencers? big bucks to tout their products. Enter artificial
> intelligence. Japanese startup Aww Inc. has introduced Imma, whose bright
> pink hair and ?goofy dance moves? brought her 300,000 followers on
> Instagram ? and landed the company seven figures in seed funding to develop
> more bots, including Imma?s ?brother,? Plustic Boy. The company says Imma
> was actually started as an art project, but companies wanted to sponsor
> her. Virtual influencers ?have real business potential,? says Christopher
> Travers, who runs a website reporting on the trend. ?They are cheaper to
> work with than humans in the long term, are 100% controllable, can appear
> in many places at once, and, most importantly, they never age or die.?
>  bill w
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201103/dad9ab64/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Nov  3 22:11:08 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 14:11:08 -0800
Subject: [ExI] fossil fuels and nukes (was: Re:  what did we learn?)
In-Reply-To: <1013ebec-9982-772b-4766-0ace9b8fcc2c@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.66.1604426345.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1013ebec-9982-772b-4766-0ace9b8fcc2c@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <011b01d6b22e$3b957a60$b2c06f20$@rainier66.com>

 

 

> On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat
Subject: [ExI] fossil fuels and nukes (was: Re: what did we learn?)

 

On 03/11/2020 17:59, Spike wrote:



we have only fossil fuels and nukes


>.I agree with that, regarding what we already know how to do, but what do
you reckon about Space-Based Solar Power?

>.To my mind, that has to be the ultimate (barring new physics) power
source. It's fusion power, already solved for us by nature. All we need to
do is harvest it (I completely agree about ground-based solar power, it can
never be a baseload power source).




-- 
Ben Zaiboc
 
 
Ben it's all about launch costs.  If we can solve that with a vehicle that
doesn't throw away hardware (all recoverable) then we are good.  But that
engineering problem has proven remarkably difficult.  I am thinking in the
short term.  next 30-50 years.  It's nukes and coal for baseload until we
can get space-based solar going, if we ever do.
 
spike
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201103/91321e87/attachment.htm>

From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 22:28:02 2020
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 14:28:02 -0800
Subject: [ExI] fossil fuels and nukes (was: Re: what did we learn?)
In-Reply-To: <011b01d6b22e$3b957a60$b2c06f20$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.66.1604426345.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1013ebec-9982-772b-4766-0ace9b8fcc2c@zaiboc.net>
 <011b01d6b22e$3b957a60$b2c06f20$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNS2YkD0xT=6PBdwCtUGeieGerkr6+u1j7j_-LPQ68yOTQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 2:12 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> > *On Behalf Of *Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* [ExI] fossil fuels and nukes (was: Re: what did we learn?)
>
>
>
> On 03/11/2020 17:59, Spike wrote:
>
> we have only fossil fuels and nukes
>
>
> >?I agree with that, regarding what we already know how to do, but what do
> you reckon about Space-Based Solar Power?
>
> >?To my mind, that has to be the ultimate (barring new physics) power
> source. It's fusion power, already solved for us by nature. All we need to
> do is harvest it (I completely agree about ground-based solar power, it can
> never be a baseload power source).
>
>
>
> Ben it?s all about launch costs.  If we can solve that with a vehicle that doesn?t throw away hardware (all recoverable) then we are good.  But that engineering problem has proven remarkably difficult.  I am thinking in the short term.  next 30-50 years.  It?s nukes and coal for baseload until we can get space-based solar going, if we ever do.
>
>
What about lunar-built-and-launched solar power?  Or putting solar panels
on eternally-sunlit parts of the Moon (after having built them on the Moon,
to reduce transport costs) and beaming from there?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201103/6e9ff1d5/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Nov  3 22:36:45 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 14:36:45 -0800
Subject: [ExI] fossil fuels and nukes (was: Re: what did we learn?)
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNS2YkD0xT=6PBdwCtUGeieGerkr6+u1j7j_-LPQ68yOTQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.66.1604426345.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1013ebec-9982-772b-4766-0ace9b8fcc2c@zaiboc.net>
 <011b01d6b22e$3b957a60$b2c06f20$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNS2YkD0xT=6PBdwCtUGeieGerkr6+u1j7j_-LPQ68yOTQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <013101d6b231$cfdc47f0$6f94d7d0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat



Ben it?s all about launch costs.  If we can solve that with a vehicle that doesn?t throw away hardware (all recoverable) then we are good.  But that engineering problem has proven remarkably difficult.  I am thinking in the short term.  next 30-50 years.  It?s nukes and coal for baseload until we can get space-based solar going, if we ever do.

 

>?What about lunar-built-and-launched solar power?  Or putting solar panels on eternally-sunlit parts of the Moon (after having built them on the Moon, to reduce transport costs) and beaming from there?

 

 

I hope it works.  I am encouraged at the recent findings about water on the moon.  That will be our fuel source if we ever manage to build all the stuff we need on the moon.  Adrian I have a hard time seeing this stuff coming in the near term, unless we manage to create a replicating assembler.

 

spike

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201103/f45f0738/attachment.htm>

From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 22:41:15 2020
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 14:41:15 -0800
Subject: [ExI] fossil fuels and nukes (was: Re: what did we learn?)
In-Reply-To: <013101d6b231$cfdc47f0$6f94d7d0$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.66.1604426345.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1013ebec-9982-772b-4766-0ace9b8fcc2c@zaiboc.net>
 <011b01d6b22e$3b957a60$b2c06f20$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNS2YkD0xT=6PBdwCtUGeieGerkr6+u1j7j_-LPQ68yOTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <013101d6b231$cfdc47f0$6f94d7d0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTveLf=C2NU=B1SCo50B7etNSrtiOTSOXv-ZnGmiX5d0A@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 2:38 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
>
> Ben it?s all about launch costs.  If we can solve that with a vehicle that doesn?t throw away hardware (all recoverable) then we are good.  But that engineering problem has proven remarkably difficult.  I am thinking in the short term.  next 30-50 years.  It?s nukes and coal for baseload until we can get space-based solar going, if we ever do.
>
>
>
> >?What about lunar-built-and-launched solar power?  Or putting solar
> panels on eternally-sunlit parts of the Moon (after having built them on
> the Moon, to reduce transport costs) and beaming from there?
>
>
>
>
>
> I hope it works.  I am encouraged at the recent findings about water on
> the moon.  That will be our fuel source if we ever manage to build all the
> stuff we need on the moon.  Adrian I have a hard time seeing this stuff
> coming in the near term, unless we manage to create a replicating assembler.
>

Lunar construction does not require nanotechnology.  It does require minor
advances in robotic/teleoperated prospecting, refining, smelting, and
manufacturing...and it requires funding to get the robots built, placed up
there, and working.  This is happening, albeit slowly.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201103/d2bf801f/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 22:48:18 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 16:48:18 -0600
Subject: [ExI] fossil fuels and nukes (was: Re: what did we learn?)
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTveLf=C2NU=B1SCo50B7etNSrtiOTSOXv-ZnGmiX5d0A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.66.1604426345.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1013ebec-9982-772b-4766-0ace9b8fcc2c@zaiboc.net>
 <011b01d6b22e$3b957a60$b2c06f20$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNS2YkD0xT=6PBdwCtUGeieGerkr6+u1j7j_-LPQ68yOTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <013101d6b231$cfdc47f0$6f94d7d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNTveLf=C2NU=B1SCo50B7etNSrtiOTSOXv-ZnGmiX5d0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYcFtMbWt6kaFk2Pk6pCB+O=-tr_4nB4Oo1_cHH_V+qAA@mail.gmail.com>

Educate the ignorant here, please?  Isn't it true that the beaming you are
talking about can be used as weapons with a little change of direction?
 bill w

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 4:43 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 2:38 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
>> Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
>>
>> Ben it?s all about launch costs.  If we can solve that with a vehicle that doesn?t throw away hardware (all recoverable) then we are good.  But that engineering problem has proven remarkably difficult.  I am thinking in the short term.  next 30-50 years.  It?s nukes and coal for baseload until we can get space-based solar going, if we ever do.
>>
>>
>>
>> >?What about lunar-built-and-launched solar power?  Or putting solar
>> panels on eternally-sunlit parts of the Moon (after having built them on
>> the Moon, to reduce transport costs) and beaming from there?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I hope it works.  I am encouraged at the recent findings about water on
>> the moon.  That will be our fuel source if we ever manage to build all the
>> stuff we need on the moon.  Adrian I have a hard time seeing this stuff
>> coming in the near term, unless we manage to create a replicating assembler.
>>
>
> Lunar construction does not require nanotechnology.  It does require minor
> advances in robotic/teleoperated prospecting, refining, smelting, and
> manufacturing...and it requires funding to get the robots built, placed up
> there, and working.  This is happening, albeit slowly.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201103/4ccd151b/attachment.htm>

From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 23:07:48 2020
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 15:07:48 -0800
Subject: [ExI] fossil fuels and nukes (was: Re: what did we learn?)
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYcFtMbWt6kaFk2Pk6pCB+O=-tr_4nB4Oo1_cHH_V+qAA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.66.1604426345.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1013ebec-9982-772b-4766-0ace9b8fcc2c@zaiboc.net>
 <011b01d6b22e$3b957a60$b2c06f20$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNS2YkD0xT=6PBdwCtUGeieGerkr6+u1j7j_-LPQ68yOTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <013101d6b231$cfdc47f0$6f94d7d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNTveLf=C2NU=B1SCo50B7etNSrtiOTSOXv-ZnGmiX5d0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYcFtMbWt6kaFk2Pk6pCB+O=-tr_4nB4Oo1_cHH_V+qAA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNST_5-R_ffGRFC+zgrOzF17a_-y3Lh7hA+jZPwpMKsejg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 2:50 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Educate the ignorant here, please?  Isn't it true that the beaming you are
> talking about can be used as weapons with a little change of direction?
>

Not so much.  You would need to focus the beam further as well.  Current
tech can focus well enough for wireless transmission to a relatively large
antenna on the ground, but for a weapon you would need much tighter focus,
unless you want to raze cities or similar (for which nuclear weapons work
better - and the nations which have a realistic shot at developing
space-based solar power already have nuclear weapons).
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201103/5e8002f8/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 00:31:40 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 18:31:40 -0600
Subject: [ExI] fossil fuels and nukes (was: Re: what did we learn?)
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNST_5-R_ffGRFC+zgrOzF17a_-y3Lh7hA+jZPwpMKsejg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.66.1604426345.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1013ebec-9982-772b-4766-0ace9b8fcc2c@zaiboc.net>
 <011b01d6b22e$3b957a60$b2c06f20$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNS2YkD0xT=6PBdwCtUGeieGerkr6+u1j7j_-LPQ68yOTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <013101d6b231$cfdc47f0$6f94d7d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNTveLf=C2NU=B1SCo50B7etNSrtiOTSOXv-ZnGmiX5d0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYcFtMbWt6kaFk2Pk6pCB+O=-tr_4nB4Oo1_cHH_V+qAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNST_5-R_ffGRFC+zgrOzF17a_-y3Lh7hA+jZPwpMKsejg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZk_OoK8E-THKVtZvP5TrUe1kSqoFJSUGA+RJm2k=NzpQ@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you Adrian.  Now does the same logic apply to that gear being in
orbit?  I can see the difficulty of aiming from the Moon.  bill w

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 5:09 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 2:50 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Educate the ignorant here, please?  Isn't it true that the beaming you
>> are talking about can be used as weapons with a little change of direction?
>>
>
> Not so much.  You would need to focus the beam further as well.  Current
> tech can focus well enough for wireless transmission to a relatively large
> antenna on the ground, but for a weapon you would need much tighter focus,
> unless you want to raze cities or similar (for which nuclear weapons work
> better - and the nations which have a realistic shot at developing
> space-based solar power already have nuclear weapons).
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201103/8143d9f9/attachment.htm>

From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 00:55:51 2020
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 16:55:51 -0800
Subject: [ExI] fossil fuels and nukes (was: Re: what did we learn?)
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZk_OoK8E-THKVtZvP5TrUe1kSqoFJSUGA+RJm2k=NzpQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.66.1604426345.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1013ebec-9982-772b-4766-0ace9b8fcc2c@zaiboc.net>
 <011b01d6b22e$3b957a60$b2c06f20$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNS2YkD0xT=6PBdwCtUGeieGerkr6+u1j7j_-LPQ68yOTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <013101d6b231$cfdc47f0$6f94d7d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNTveLf=C2NU=B1SCo50B7etNSrtiOTSOXv-ZnGmiX5d0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYcFtMbWt6kaFk2Pk6pCB+O=-tr_4nB4Oo1_cHH_V+qAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNST_5-R_ffGRFC+zgrOzF17a_-y3Lh7hA+jZPwpMKsejg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZk_OoK8E-THKVtZvP5TrUe1kSqoFJSUGA+RJm2k=NzpQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSm7rFCj8DnxtVOjHcbU1-YOewxB0GTaBHNaBpHYaE+5g@mail.gmail.com>

I was talking about the gear (solar panels in particular) being in Earth
orbit.  That has been studied far more than the mechanics of beaming power
from the Moon to Earth orbit, so I assumed that was the case you were
asking about.

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 4:33 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Thank you Adrian.  Now does the same logic apply to that gear being in
> orbit?  I can see the difficulty of aiming from the Moon.  bill w
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 5:09 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 2:50 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Educate the ignorant here, please?  Isn't it true that the beaming you
>>> are talking about can be used as weapons with a little change of direction?
>>>
>>
>> Not so much.  You would need to focus the beam further as well.  Current
>> tech can focus well enough for wireless transmission to a relatively large
>> antenna on the ground, but for a weapon you would need much tighter focus,
>> unless you want to raze cities or similar (for which nuclear weapons work
>> better - and the nations which have a realistic shot at developing
>> space-based solar power already have nuclear weapons).
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201103/fcc73d97/attachment.htm>

From avant at sollegro.com  Wed Nov  4 01:33:16 2020
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2020 17:33:16 -0800
Subject: [ExI] stoopid kwestchyuns
Message-ID: <20201103173316.Horde.5jFZG_SHA8vD42jwhl-Zgr5@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>


 From an information-theoretic POV, is there a difference between  
omniscience and oblivion i.e. total ignorance even of self?

Stuart LaForge


From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 01:47:52 2020
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 20:47:52 -0500
Subject: [ExI] stoopid kwestchyuns
In-Reply-To: <20201103173316.Horde.5jFZG_SHA8vD42jwhl-Zgr5@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <20201103173316.Horde.5jFZG_SHA8vD42jwhl-Zgr5@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyE6aBc=d=93RLMkO8n=T=gzUaUGLR=CGBZxjbrf1PfUVQ@mail.gmail.com>

I have a feeling that this question is congruent to the question "does free
will exist?"

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020, 8:34 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>  From an information-theoretic POV, is there a difference between
> omniscience and oblivion i.e. total ignorance even of self?
>
> Stuart LaForge
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201103/864e957b/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Nov  4 02:07:14 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 18:07:14 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 39 new signals
Message-ID: <01a601d6b24f$37a50350$a6ef09f0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

This is making me crazy.  LIGO/Virgo collaboration just announced they figured a way to extract 39 new signals.  I can?t imagine no matter how I look at it, that there really are gravitational wave events happening every few weeks.  How can that possibly be happening?

 

spike

 

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201103/9347e4d6/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 03:22:24 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 11:22:24 +0800
Subject: [ExI] what did we learn?
In-Reply-To: <00d501d6b218$76b1c790$641556b0$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.64.1604381684.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <8b910b91-4c82-5f14-7428-97428601dc06@zaiboc.net>
 <009c01d6b1fe$897bcd90$9c7368b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEaOSnQiQJBHXZ0RoawkSgsmMy7Y=A2Hfz2d32yn2sB5Cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <002c01d6b206$156f6c60$404e4520$@rainier66.com>
 <CAGSKFy11APJYgR7U76yWeAh1i392Vkk4Gwt9HT8YxbAjpNs3Dw@mail.gmail.com>
 <007301d6b20d$29bd9e60$7d38db20$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armis-yt7YVswAWWEWLL7fOsXEg+s+bRdYDr47Q-hvLXiAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d501d6b218$76b1c790$641556b0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1QzRNOnYQdqjBcsthB8HBHFvsN-9EVRmzQjQNU3umG_w@mail.gmail.com>

 "You recall how it was at the U: the fluffy-sluffy majors were out there
on the quad partying and messing around, the engineers and STEM people were
in their rooms studying.  If they even have anything analogous to that in
the UK, good chance the same patterns hold there as it does here."

At my university it was the communications majors that had people rolling
their eyes.... "Oh, you know, she's a communications major!"

On Wed, Nov 4, 2020 at 3:41 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
> BillK via extropy-chat
>
>
> On Tue, 3 Nov 2020 at 18:27, spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > Picked on?  I have no heartburn with English majors...
> > Any picking on that I do does not apply to English majors, but is
> sincere ridicule and scorn, specifically aimed at journalism majors. ...
> > _______________________________________________
>
>
> >...Isn't it a bit unfair to complain about journalists?  For the big
> media giants surely it is the billionaire owners that direct the agenda of
> their media? The workers have to support the politics of the owners or they
> lose their job.
> Some journalists can work for lower wages on small independent
> publications, but for a career, the big media giants have the money and the
> prospects.
>
>
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Hi BillK, it isn't journalists that I disdain, but rather journalism
> majors.
>
> You recall how it was at the U: the fluffy-sluffy majors were out there on
> the quad partying and messing around, the engineers and STEM people were in
> their rooms studying.  If they even have anything analogous to that in the
> UK, good chance the same patterns hold there as it does here.
>
> Journalism is the ultimate party-major.  How hard is it to write an
> article?  Do people need to study at the university for four years just to
> write articles?  We should find scientists and STEM people who know how to
> write, have the media giants hire them to write our news.  I don't want to
> be informed by yahoos who squandered their university years partying down
> on the quad.  I want to be informed by people who squandered their
> university years studying science and technology.
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201104/26da8ee0/attachment-0001.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 05:35:09 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 13:35:09 +0800
Subject: [ExI] The Science of Nerdiness
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3GN97kej5SSAVhbfB5G79=Hgs48R7epfcX_V5=LtVK-A@mail.gmail.com>

"How active is your nerdy dopamine pathway? If some or all of these
statements <https://ipip.ori.org/new_ipip-50-item-scale.htm> describe you,
dopamine might well be flowing strongly to your prefrontal cortex:

   - I love spending time reflecting on things.
   - I am full of ideas.
   - I have a vivid imagination.
   - I am interested in abstract ideas.
   - I am curious about many different things.

Don?t understand why everyone else around you is so interested in sex,
drugs and money, and why you get so turned on by stimulating ideas and
learning new and interesting things? Now you have a potential answer: You
may be highly sensitive to the reward value of information."
I suspect most of the people here are cut from this cloth...  :  )

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-science-of-nerdiness/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201104/04c08c7c/attachment.htm>

From danust2012 at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 08:43:53 2020
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 00:43:53 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Prosthetic found in ancient grave
Message-ID: <2872C6CE-1241-402D-A7AE-BFC48735E337@gmail.com>

http://www.isita-org.com/jass/Contents/2018vol96/Micarelli/Micarelli.pdf

I guess it?s kind of an obvious invention.

Regards,

Dan
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201104/3946e4ef/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Nov  4 11:47:14 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 03:47:14 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Prosthetic found in ancient grave
In-Reply-To: <2872C6CE-1241-402D-A7AE-BFC48735E337@gmail.com>
References: <2872C6CE-1241-402D-A7AE-BFC48735E337@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001501d6b2a0$3dca2de0$b95e89a0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat
Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2020 12:44 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com>
Subject: [ExI] Prosthetic found in ancient grave

 

http://www.isita-org.com/jass/Contents/2018vol96/Micarelli/Micarelli.pdf

 

I guess it?s kind of an obvious invention.

 

Regards,

 

Dan

 

\

 

 

 

 

 

It is amazing that they figured out how to prevent infection back in those days.

 

spike

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201104/c5fe93f6/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 13:05:49 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 07:05:49 -0600
Subject: [ExI] supreme court and juveniles
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYJ2NJV_0L5vaU3tsruFY5-+2=Y_kgUE=gUPM_+EE4hsw@mail.gmail.com>

In the news: justices seem likely to alter past rulings about life in
prison sentences without parole for juveniles.  The death penalty has
already been banned for them.

Murderers should be punished and thoroughly.  But consider:  a person under
25 is not the same person as one whose forebrain, and its mature
decision-making abilities, judgment, and ability to suppress emotional
actions, has developed fully.

I think that given the same situations in which they, as juveniles, killed
someone, as mature adults they would very likely not do so.

'Permanent incorrigibility' is a term that is used in these court cases.
There, of course, is no such term in psychology, and the very idea that
something about a person is permanently fixed by the teen years is just
absurd.  Genetics can be strong, but changes in personality via life
experiences cannot be dismissed.  Not at all.  I might have to make an
exception for the total psychopath (and no, we have no test to determine
such).

Is it out of the question that in future years, courts will order
sophisticated brain scans designed to determine if a person' ability to
restrain actions is mature?  And if it is not, then incarcerating the
person until such time as the brain is mature and then decide what to do
with him?

Prison for life deprives the person of a useful life and deprives society
of a potentially useful citizen, not even regarding the enormous costs of
keeping a person in prison for many decades.  Some lifers request death as
they face these decades.  Would it benefit society if we agreed to these
requests?

bill w
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201104/1cb39acf/attachment.htm>

From ben at zaiboc.net  Wed Nov  4 15:23:36 2020
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 15:23:36 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Beyond Meat
In-Reply-To: <mailman.68.1604435989.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.68.1604435989.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <38d23faa-6323-4fb2-40a4-79e79b7ad6ab@zaiboc.net>

On 03/11/2020 20:39, bill w wrote:
> Y'all do realize that most people believe in God, right?? So uploading 
> is going to be regarded as extremely unnatural, and getting classified 
> as a person is going to be really difficult.? When it happens there'd 
> better be plenty of backup, because the uploads are going to get 
> turned off, if many people have their say, or take matters into their 
> own hands.? ?bill w

Did you ever see the film 'Transcendence' (with Johnny Depp)?

If so, did you notice any problems with the story? The story about a 
super-intelligent upload able to create workable, large-scale 
nanotechnology, yet, somehow, unable to outwit the luddite biological 
humans?

If the plot of that film was more realistic, it would go very 
differently. Even I can think of multiple ways of outwitting the 
luddites, and I'm not anywhere near super-intelligent (I'm probably not 
even averagely-intelligent, to be honest). It goes without saying that 
there will be plenty of backup, and other things that go beyond that, 
not to mention the things that we can't even imagine.

I doubt the uploads will have any serious problem from the 
god-botherers, or any other baseline humans. Or anyone, really, who 
thinks that the words 'turning them off', means anything real.

-- 
Ben Zaiboc


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 15:33:56 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 09:33:56 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Beyond Meat
In-Reply-To: <38d23faa-6323-4fb2-40a4-79e79b7ad6ab@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.68.1604435989.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <38d23faa-6323-4fb2-40a4-79e79b7ad6ab@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaU5PEG=XzGHTCnRuFP94xAswbs0ciP73=9mOKxnmbrrQ@mail.gmail.com>

 (I'm probably not even averagely-intelligent, to be honest).  ben

Ben, the quote of the day a few days ago by Golda Meir, seems to apply to
you:  "Don't be humble; you are not that great."

You would have been hounded out of this group and totally humiliated as a
result of stupid opinions if were you not  above average.    bill w

On Wed, Nov 4, 2020 at 9:25 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On 03/11/2020 20:39, bill w wrote:
> > Y'all do realize that most people believe in God, right?  So uploading
> > is going to be regarded as extremely unnatural, and getting classified
> > as a person is going to be really difficult.  When it happens there'd
> > better be plenty of backup, because the uploads are going to get
> > turned off, if many people have their say, or take matters into their
> > own hands.   bill w
>
> Did you ever see the film 'Transcendence' (with Johnny Depp)?
>
> If so, did you notice any problems with the story? The story about a
> super-intelligent upload able to create workable, large-scale
> nanotechnology, yet, somehow, unable to outwit the luddite biological
> humans?
>
> If the plot of that film was more realistic, it would go very
> differently. Even I can think of multiple ways of outwitting the
> luddites, and I'm not anywhere near super-intelligent (I'm probably not
> even averagely-intelligent, to be honest). It goes without saying that
> there will be plenty of backup, and other things that go beyond that,
> not to mention the things that we can't even imagine.
>
> I doubt the uploads will have any serious problem from the
> god-botherers, or any other baseline humans. Or anyone, really, who
> thinks that the words 'turning them off', means anything real.
>
> --
> Ben Zaiboc
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201104/28b03e4e/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Nov  4 15:38:38 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 07:38:38 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Beyond Meat
In-Reply-To: <38d23faa-6323-4fb2-40a4-79e79b7ad6ab@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.68.1604435989.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <38d23faa-6323-4fb2-40a4-79e79b7ad6ab@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <005601d6b2c0$910d6f10$b3284d30$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Ben
Zaiboc via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] Beyond Meat

On 03/11/2020 20:39, bill w wrote:
> Y'all do realize that most people believe in God, right?? So uploading 
> is going to be regarded as extremely unnatural...

Ja.  But the notion of god and unnatural are not necessarily synonymous.

There are at least two (that I know of, perhaps more) fundamentalist
Christian religions which treat the human body as a machine, which can die,
then later be reconstructed in the form of a perfectly identical copy (with
different atoms from the original but otherwise indistinguishable.)  A
particular religion I am thinking of has no heartburn with the notion of
uploading.  It even has a motive: the uploads could convince the meat-blobs
to get religion.

>...and getting classified 
> as a person is going to be really difficult.? When it happens there'd 
> better be plenty of backup, because the uploads are going to get 
> turned off, if many people have their say, or take matters into their 
> own hands.? ?bill w

Ja, an upload wouldn't need to be classified as a person.  I agree with you
on having multiple backups.

spike






From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 16:27:34 2020
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 16:27:34 +0000
Subject: [ExI] 39 new signals
In-Reply-To: <01a601d6b24f$37a50350$a6ef09f0$@rainier66.com>
References: <01a601d6b24f$37a50350$a6ef09f0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgswUJGc5myU-M7g2Va+q=hyzauo=Y_OvD2MiaUmR0pmg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 4 Nov 2020 at 02:09, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> This is making me crazy.  LIGO/Virgo collaboration just announced they figured a way to extract 39 new signals.  I can?t imagine no matter how I look at it, that there really are gravitational wave events happening every few weeks.  How can that possibly be happening?
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________

Oh ye of little imagination!  :)
You probably haven't noticed, but the universe is quite a big place.  ;)

Some estimates say that there should be about 100,000 mergers per year
washing across the earth, but LIGO is not sensitive enough (yet) to
detect them.
Most mergers are far distant, from the early universe creation.
Search for 100,000 black hole mergers, for more info.

BillK


From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Nov  4 16:40:36 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 08:40:36 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 39 new signals
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgswUJGc5myU-M7g2Va+q=hyzauo=Y_OvD2MiaUmR0pmg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <01a601d6b24f$37a50350$a6ef09f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armgswUJGc5myU-M7g2Va+q=hyzauo=Y_OvD2MiaUmR0pmg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007701d6b2c9$3963f0f0$ac2bd2d0$@rainier66.com>


...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] 39 new signals

On Wed, 4 Nov 2020 at 02:09, spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> This is making me crazy.  LIGO/Virgo collaboration just announced they figured a way to extract 39 new signals.  I can?t imagine no matter how I look at it, that there really are gravitational wave events happening every few weeks.  How can that possibly be happening?
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________

>...Oh ye of little imagination!  :)
You probably haven't noticed, but the universe is quite a big place.  ;)

>...Some estimates say that there should be about 100,000 mergers per year washing across the earth, but LIGO is not sensitive enough (yet) to detect them.
Most mergers are far distant, from the early universe creation.
Search for 100,000 black hole mergers, for more info.

>...BillK

_______________________________________________


BillK, it's a mind-blower.  LIGO and Virgo have revolutionized my picture of the early universe more than the first good images from Hubble.  These instruments look farther back in time.

My view of inflation cannot explain how the early universe was so anisoptropic.  It should have been too uniform during the inflation to have all these mergers.  I have been surprised twice: the COBE results showed us that the universe is more homogeneous than we expected, now LIGO/Virgo is showing us that it is less homogeneous than we expected.

spike



From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 16:56:17 2020
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 16:56:17 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Fast Radio Bursts coming from a magnetar
Message-ID: <CAL_armgvRYD=E0=+BnN1EN-CoRP4xxWh4JnBDx7N4AxkieL+Tg@mail.gmail.com>

A Surprise Discovery Points to the Source of Fast Radio Bursts

After a burst lit up their telescope ?like a Christmas tree,?
astronomers were able to finally track down the source of these cosmic
oddities.   Maciej Rebisz    6 Nov 2020

<https://www.quantamagazine.org/a-surprise-discovery-shows-magnetars-create-fast-radio-bursts-20200611/>

Quotes:
Scholz and his colleagues quickly realized that the burst must be
nearby, and not just because the flash was so bright. The flare
appeared to originate from a part of the sky where an object in the
Milky Way had been shooting out X-rays. The coincidence was strong,
and if confirmed, it would let astronomers figure out what causes fast
radio bursts.

The astronomers then turned toward the previously known source: an
ultra-dense, rapidly spinning and highly magnetized cinder of a
stellar core called a magnetar. With a single lucky discovery, the
mystery of where fast radio bursts come from appeared to have been
solved.
--------------------

BillK


From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 17:26:08 2020
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 12:26:08 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Beyond Meat
In-Reply-To: <005601d6b2c0$910d6f10$b3284d30$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.68.1604435989.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <38d23faa-6323-4fb2-40a4-79e79b7ad6ab@zaiboc.net>
 <005601d6b2c0$910d6f10$b3284d30$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbLA0ADMQw-N3Rr=ayLQMZyEJK4Z88SRbzewVT_EePWa7g@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 4, 2020, 10:42 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> Ja, an upload wouldn't need to be classified as a person.  I agree with you
> on having multiple backups.
>

If organizations can be classified as persons, then uploads should be.

If your Alexa is afforded functional personhood already, your actual
mindfile running on non-bio hardware should still be a person... in much
the same way that prosthetic limbs does not make you less of a person.
Simply replace all the bio bits with nonbio until the only squishy left are
the feels.  Honestly,  isn't that what makes the person anyway?

>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201104/4063d54d/attachment.htm>

From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 17:30:47 2020
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 12:30:47 -0500
Subject: [ExI] supreme court and juveniles
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYJ2NJV_0L5vaU3tsruFY5-+2=Y_kgUE=gUPM_+EE4hsw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYJ2NJV_0L5vaU3tsruFY5-+2=Y_kgUE=gUPM_+EE4hsw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbKF+-my1W7zLpaV38HVjbXre==Gg0mt2HYqEJ=RSZV+EA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 4, 2020, 8:08 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> decades.  Some lifers request death as they face these decades.  Would it
> benefit society if we agreed to these requests?
>

Yes. It would also be humane to grant this request for those in end of life
scenarios with no better medical options.

>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201104/7255e0cc/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 18:29:04 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 12:29:04 -0600
Subject: [ExI] supreme court and juveniles
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbKF+-my1W7zLpaV38HVjbXre==Gg0mt2HYqEJ=RSZV+EA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYJ2NJV_0L5vaU3tsruFY5-+2=Y_kgUE=gUPM_+EE4hsw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbKF+-my1W7zLpaV38HVjbXre==Gg0mt2HYqEJ=RSZV+EA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbtYp1WqWVUvPEK-2PwVByRAPbxjZWAMSdRb1mrn1nM4Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 4, 2020 at 11:34 AM Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 4, 2020, 8:08 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> decades.  Some lifers request death as they face these decades.  Would it
>> benefit society if we agreed to these requests?
>>
>
> Yes. It would also be humane to grant this request for those in end of
> life scenarios with no better medical options. I was thinking of anyone,
> near the end of life or not, who would never get out and wanted to leave
> the planet.  Could be age 30 in perfect health.  bill w
>
>> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201104/737470ec/attachment.htm>

From bronto at pobox.com  Wed Nov  4 19:16:01 2020
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 11:16:01 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Beyond Meat
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbLA0ADMQw-N3Rr=ayLQMZyEJK4Z88SRbzewVT_EePWa7g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.68.1604435989.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <38d23faa-6323-4fb2-40a4-79e79b7ad6ab@zaiboc.net>
 <005601d6b2c0$910d6f10$b3284d30$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdbLA0ADMQw-N3Rr=ayLQMZyEJK4Z88SRbzewVT_EePWa7g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fd7c5a9c-3845-05e6-f5ec-5813face10f4@pobox.com>

On 2020-11-04 09:26, Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat wrote:
> If organizations can be classified as persons, then uploads should be.

In the Rosinante trilogy by (iirc) Alexis Gilliland,
AIs are corporations that own shares in themselves.

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org

From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 19:28:35 2020
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 14:28:35 -0500
Subject: [ExI] supreme court and juveniles
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbtYp1WqWVUvPEK-2PwVByRAPbxjZWAMSdRb1mrn1nM4Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYJ2NJV_0L5vaU3tsruFY5-+2=Y_kgUE=gUPM_+EE4hsw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbKF+-my1W7zLpaV38HVjbXre==Gg0mt2HYqEJ=RSZV+EA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbtYp1WqWVUvPEK-2PwVByRAPbxjZWAMSdRb1mrn1nM4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdb+MwzkR4eW3uu9SQBEYa3PEyMsRE3x9=4MgcFX9RFXkKA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 4, 2020, 1:31 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Nov 4, 2020 at 11:34 AM Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Nov 4, 2020, 8:08 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> decades.  Some lifers request death as they face these decades.  Would
>>> it benefit society if we agreed to these requests?
>>>
>>
>> Yes. It would also be humane to grant this request for those in end of
>> life scenarios with no better medical options. I was thinking of anyone,
>> near the end of life or not, who would never get out and wanted to leave
>> the planet.  Could be age 30 in perfect health.  bill w
>>
>
Oh, i thought you meant literally death for those with "life sentences" who
do not want the torment/torture of 80-100 years of prison.  I just didn't
think it was fair to grant the "out" to mostly alive but deny to the nearly
dead.

>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201104/ab65d574/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 22:12:29 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 16:12:29 -0600
Subject: [ExI] The Science of Nerdiness
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy3GN97kej5SSAVhbfB5G79=Hgs48R7epfcX_V5=LtVK-A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy3GN97kej5SSAVhbfB5G79=Hgs48R7epfcX_V5=LtVK-A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaMRy2QbQGNRkooDpF_+_oW30-95s=5WDtT2E4SuJM41g@mail.gmail.com>

If you are trying to get a count of nerds in this group you can start with
me:  big time nerd.  (but pretty good athlete)  bill w

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 11:31 PM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> "How active is your nerdy dopamine pathway? If some or all of these
> statements <https://ipip.ori.org/new_ipip-50-item-scale.htm> describe
> you, dopamine might well be flowing strongly to your prefrontal cortex:
>
>    - I love spending time reflecting on things.
>    - I am full of ideas.
>    - I have a vivid imagination.
>    - I am interested in abstract ideas.
>    - I am curious about many different things.
>
> Don?t understand why everyone else around you is so interested in sex,
> drugs and money, and why you get so turned on by stimulating ideas and
> learning new and interesting things? Now you have a potential answer: You
> may be highly sensitive to the reward value of information."
> I suspect most of the people here are cut from this cloth...  :  )
>
> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-science-of-nerdiness/
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201104/62a9eb60/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Nov  5 22:03:59 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2020 16:03:59 -0600
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbUL5RjEJ5cFFxz5v6aqV2wVj1uJ1xGXc8MCBZYQdnHzQ@mail.gmail.com>

"When I was younger I could remember anything, whether it happened or not.
But I am getting old, and soon I shall remember only the latter."

Mark Twain
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201105/41493f66/attachment.htm>

From dsunley at gmail.com  Thu Nov  5 23:25:54 2020
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2020 16:25:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] stoopid kwestchyuns
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyE6aBc=d=93RLMkO8n=T=gzUaUGLR=CGBZxjbrf1PfUVQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20201103173316.Horde.5jFZG_SHA8vD42jwhl-Zgr5@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAKrqSyE6aBc=d=93RLMkO8n=T=gzUaUGLR=CGBZxjbrf1PfUVQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEptUkQ2A2Q_Zygm2Bdn0Cz1aWbDZ3VmnMv=2vGr1_2Am617eQ@mail.gmail.com>

Yes. they are different, and different in a structurally interesting way.

An omniscient agent contains a structure that is homeomorphic with its
entire containing universe [possibly except for itself, depending on what
you mean by omniscience], and mechanisms for continuously updating that
structure to keep it in correspondence with the entire containing universe.

A totally ignorant agent contains no internal structures with any
correspondence to the structure of the containing universe except by
chance, and no mechanisms to synchronize any part of that structure with
any part of the surrounding universe.

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 6:49 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I have a feeling that this question is congruent to the question "does
> free will exist?"
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020, 8:34 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>  From an information-theoretic POV, is there a difference between
>> omniscience and oblivion i.e. total ignorance even of self?
>>
>> Stuart LaForge
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201105/76af837d/attachment-0001.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Nov  6 19:37:49 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 13:37:49 -0600
Subject: [ExI] smartwatch update
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbryhzO=yS1d=y7WJ8_6f8FM1WaXsOFjjwzPG2qVUfjNQ@mail.gmail.com>

OK, so I bought a Samsung 3, top of the line.  I was instructed in how to
charge it and I did.  Ditto turning it on.

There was no instruction as to how to turn it off, or even if you were
supposed to, so I bought not one but two manuals for it on Amazon, one
marked 'senior'.

When I got the books, neither of them showed me how to turn it on or off,
and I have not managed to get it off.  There is a button 'sometimes'
(depending on which manual, or the tiny piece of paper that was the only
thing accompanying the watch.) labeled 'power' which I used to turn it on.
So I held that down to try to turn it off.  Nope.

I think technology has reached a point where only teenagers can handle it.
More fluid intelligence.  My first shock was quite a few years ago when I
bought a smartphone - also Samsung.  200+ page manual.  No way you can do
without a manual unless you have a brain substantially different from
mine.  Maybe I have lost a standard deviation, but even so I can still
qualify for Mensa.

I feel sorry for old folks who think they need a watch that measures heart
rate and even, with one lead, give you an ECG.  I suspect there will be
many returns.

If you know:  are they depriving us of any really useful enclosures with
tech equipment so we have to buy manuals and such?  If so, this is just
shameful treatment of old people.  One manual I bought was clearly written
by an Asian whose knowledge of grammar was at best barely sufficient
(meaning that it was not correct but you could figure out what he was
saying), and at worst incomprehensible.  Where are the English copy
editors? Too expensive?  It honestly reminded me of Japanese printer
manuals of the 1980s, at the time the most complex writing I ever
encountered.

(aside - in France they have contests where the contestants try to figure
out what the other person is saying and it's all in French!!  And I'll bet
the spelling contests there are won only by people with perfect memories)

It promises to be a marvelous thing, able to link with my phone and so on.
But the learning curve is really rather flat at this point.  Very
disappointing.  Will I ever walk with a cane?  Given these pills,
probably.  Will I pay someone to learn to use this watch and teach it to
me?  Hmm.  At this point, likely.

bill w
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201106/a335643a/attachment.htm>

From sparge at gmail.com  Fri Nov  6 20:04:27 2020
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 15:04:27 -0500
Subject: [ExI] smartwatch update
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbryhzO=yS1d=y7WJ8_6f8FM1WaXsOFjjwzPG2qVUfjNQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbryhzO=yS1d=y7WJ8_6f8FM1WaXsOFjjwzPG2qVUfjNQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2csBCi1UMB1=bmPR8D4aVUhDESX9KC_PjKnHW7ZT2EP=A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 2:40 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> There was no instruction as to how to turn it off, or even if you were
> supposed to, so I bought not one but two manuals for it on Amazon, one
> marked 'senior'.
>

Why would you want to turn it off? If you do, just let the battery drain.

If you know:  are they depriving us of any really useful enclosures with
> tech equipment so we have to buy manuals and such?
>

No, they're just considered unnecessary.


>   If so, this is just shameful treatment of old people.  One manual I
> bought was clearly written by an Asian whose knowledge of grammar was at
> best barely sufficient (meaning that it was not correct but you could
> figure out what he was saying), and at worst incomprehensible.  Where are
> the English copy editors? Too expensive?  It honestly reminded me of
> Japanese printer manuals of the 1980s, at the time the most complex writing
> I ever encountered.
>

These days I suspect most are done using Google Translate. Writing a good
manual for a high tech device intended to be used by the elderly is
extremely difficult, and that's generally not the target demographic.
Someone could write a Smartwatches for Dummies book, but since Apple
dominates the market, it'd be Apple Watches for Dummies.

It promises to be a marvelous thing, able to link with my phone and so on.
> But the learning curve is really rather flat at this point.  Very
> disappointing.  Will I ever walk with a cane?  Given these pills,
> probably.  Will I pay someone to learn to use this watch and teach it to
> me?  Hmm.  At this point, likely.
>

Find a teenager.

-Dave
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201106/045e114b/attachment.htm>

From ben at zaiboc.net  Fri Nov  6 20:29:17 2020
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 20:29:17 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Beyond Meat
In-Reply-To: <mailman.76.1604618778.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.76.1604618778.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <12a8f0b9-f543-1aa4-ccf3-51bb421154d8@zaiboc.net>

On 05/11/2020 23:26, bill w wrote:
> ?(I'm probably not even averagely-intelligent, to be honest).? ben
>
> Ben, the quote of the day a few days ago by Golda Meir, seems to apply 
> to you:? "Don't be humble; you are not that great."
>
> You would have been hounded out of this group and totally humiliated 
> as a result of stupid opinions if were you not above average.? ? bill w

Oh, I don't know. I suspect I may be that great :-[.

I don't deny that for certain kinds of thinking (that partially overlap 
the kind of thinking that goes on here), I'm almost certainly above 
average, but there are many areas where I know I'm sorely lacking. 
Mathematical thinking is one of them, as some of you will know (and it 
vexes me greatly, because I know (or at least glimpse) what I'm 
missing). But there are many other areas. This group, I'm sure, will 
over-value some kinds of intelligence, and under-value or even totally 
discount others. I'm trying to overcome that bias, and look at a wide 
range of areas that could be called 'intelligence', and reckon that, 
averaged over all of them, I'd come in at under 50%. I'm not singling 
myself out, either. I wouldn't be surprised if some others that read 
this list will be similar.

I don't remember who said it, but I take this advice seriously: Hang out 
with people who are smarter than you, some of it might rub off.

-- 
Ben Zaiboc

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201106/7ce152ef/attachment.htm>

From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Nov  6 20:28:43 2020
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 20:28:43 +0000
Subject: [ExI] smartwatch update
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbryhzO=yS1d=y7WJ8_6f8FM1WaXsOFjjwzPG2qVUfjNQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbryhzO=yS1d=y7WJ8_6f8FM1WaXsOFjjwzPG2qVUfjNQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgLKc1MhPA2OvKrJzknLSYcxe0O0hJMxLwZ44NQATQT=A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 6 Nov 2020 at 19:41, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> OK, so I bought a Samsung 3, top of the line.  I was instructed in how to charge it and I did.  Ditto turning it on.
>
> There was no instruction as to how to turn it off, or even if you were supposed to, so I bought not one but two manuals for it on Amazon, one marked 'senior'.
>
> bill w
> _______________________________________________


To turn the Samsung Galaxy Watch 3 off and on:

1. Long-press both physical buttons on the watch.

2. Wait until the Power off tab appears, then tap it.

3. Long-press the lower physical button again and wait until the
Samsung Galaxy Watch turns back on.
--------------

BillK

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Nov  6 20:35:06 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 14:35:06 -0600
Subject: [ExI] smartwatch update
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2csBCi1UMB1=bmPR8D4aVUhDESX9KC_PjKnHW7ZT2EP=A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbryhzO=yS1d=y7WJ8_6f8FM1WaXsOFjjwzPG2qVUfjNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2csBCi1UMB1=bmPR8D4aVUhDESX9KC_PjKnHW7ZT2EP=A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEb9OPp50X=QPwUHWHTKXRkXt8FD_A+gXWfSAJ5n89sMDg@mail.gmail.com>

I wonder if I would be better off just tossing the phone and the watch and
going Iphone and watch?  My daughter and family, including a 23 yr old
grandson, all use Iphones.  Google is my email guy and the correction
software is far from perfect.  It has gotten better about spelling,
though.  It used to think that some of my words did not belong in the
language.  In any case, Japanese is a difficult language.

bill   thanks

On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 2:06 PM Dave Sill via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 2:40 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> There was no instruction as to how to turn it off, or even if you were
>> supposed to, so I bought not one but two manuals for it on Amazon, one
>> marked 'senior'.
>>
>
> Why would you want to turn it off? If you do, just let the battery drain.
>
> If you know:  are they depriving us of any really useful enclosures with
>> tech equipment so we have to buy manuals and such?
>>
>
> No, they're just considered unnecessary.
>
>
>>   If so, this is just shameful treatment of old people.  One manual I
>> bought was clearly written by an Asian whose knowledge of grammar was at
>> best barely sufficient (meaning that it was not correct but you could
>> figure out what he was saying), and at worst incomprehensible.  Where are
>> the English copy editors? Too expensive?  It honestly reminded me of
>> Japanese printer manuals of the 1980s, at the time the most complex writing
>> I ever encountered.
>>
>
> These days I suspect most are done using Google Translate. Writing a good
> manual for a high tech device intended to be used by the elderly is
> extremely difficult, and that's generally not the target demographic.
> Someone could write a Smartwatches for Dummies book, but since Apple
> dominates the market, it'd be Apple Watches for Dummies.
>
> It promises to be a marvelous thing, able to link with my phone and so on.
>> But the learning curve is really rather flat at this point.  Very
>> disappointing.  Will I ever walk with a cane?  Given these pills,
>> probably.  Will I pay someone to learn to use this watch and teach it to
>> me?  Hmm.  At this point, likely.
>>
>
> Find a teenager.
>
> -Dave
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201106/b70e07e1/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Nov  6 20:51:50 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 14:51:50 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Beyond Meat
In-Reply-To: <12a8f0b9-f543-1aa4-ccf3-51bb421154d8@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.76.1604618778.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <12a8f0b9-f543-1aa4-ccf3-51bb421154d8@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZNbD5t+6FtA7vsx=SJg-6YGvJjs5EiZJRrPLgBaK2NiA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 2:31 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On 05/11/2020 23:26, bill w wrote:
>
>  (I'm probably not even averagely-intelligent, to be honest).  ben
>
>
>
> Oh, I don't know. I suspect I may be that great :-[.
>
> I don't deny that for certain kinds of thinking (that partially overlap
> the kind of thinking that goes on here), I'm almost certainly above
> average, but there are many areas where I know I'm sorely lacking.
> Mathematical thinking is one of them, as some of you will know (and it
> vexes me greatly, because I know (or at least glimpse) what I'm missing).
> But there are many other areas. This group, I'm sure, will over-value some
> kinds of intelligence, and under-value or even totally discount others. I'm
> trying to overcome that bias, and look at a wide range of areas that could
> be called 'intelligence', and reckon that, averaged over all of them, I'd
> come in at under 50%. I'm not singling myself out, either. I wouldn't be
> surprised if some others that read this list will be similar.
>
> I don't remember who said it, but I take this advice seriously: Hang out
> with people who are smarter than you, some of it might rub off.
>
> Ben Zaiboc
>
>
Hey, how do you think I feel?  My highest class in math was algebra I (much
higher than that in statistics). I don't follow any of that as I can't and
am way too far behind and old to catch up.  Henry and I are the top (only)
guys in psych (and I for one feel underused by the group in that respect).
I have no idea what you mean by 50%.  That doesn't translate to IQ or
anything I know.  But certainly, hang around smart guys.  Where the field
involved requires no intelligence, like politics, it's a free for all.

And think about this:  in fluid intelligence, most of us from over the hill
to way over the hill.  Anything past 40 is old - even 30 sometimes.

bill w

> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201106/cc6054fc/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Nov  6 20:52:22 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 14:52:22 -0600
Subject: [ExI] smartwatch update
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgLKc1MhPA2OvKrJzknLSYcxe0O0hJMxLwZ44NQATQT=A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbryhzO=yS1d=y7WJ8_6f8FM1WaXsOFjjwzPG2qVUfjNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgLKc1MhPA2OvKrJzknLSYcxe0O0hJMxLwZ44NQATQT=A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZp_5deQsZ6BgY2bHaNZhG8y1LPiF99E-h=xF67fUeRnQ@mail.gmail.com>

thanks bill k

On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 2:36 PM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Fri, 6 Nov 2020 at 19:41, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > OK, so I bought a Samsung 3, top of the line.  I was instructed in how
> to charge it and I did.  Ditto turning it on.
> >
> > There was no instruction as to how to turn it off, or even if you were
> supposed to, so I bought not one but two manuals for it on Amazon, one
> marked 'senior'.
> >
> > bill w
> > _______________________________________________
>
>
> To turn the Samsung Galaxy Watch 3 off and on:
>
> 1. Long-press both physical buttons on the watch.
>
> 2. Wait until the Power off tab appears, then tap it.
>
> 3. Long-press the lower physical button again and wait until the
> Samsung Galaxy Watch turns back on.
> --------------
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201106/39ca4134/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Nov  6 22:13:56 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 16:13:56 -0600
Subject: [ExI] iphone
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEadMNYCpVOvOLsvtjtNfrc4Op-oupz1w4OwBPiXympRHQ@mail.gmail.com>

Goodbye Samsung, hello Apple. My daughter convinces me that the new
smartwatch from Apple will be the best for the heart functions I need.
Thus I am selling two Samsung 5 phones and returning the Samsung watch.

I called Apple and they said that the oldest iphone that would work with
the newest watch is the model 6.  I can afford more than that, though
certainly not the newest model.  Under $400 preferable though not firm.

Any recommendations for iPhone model?  Do you have it?

bill w
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201106/ebc03082/attachment.htm>

From interzone at gmail.com  Fri Nov  6 22:25:56 2020
From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 17:25:56 -0500
Subject: [ExI] iphone
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEadMNYCpVOvOLsvtjtNfrc4Op-oupz1w4OwBPiXympRHQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEadMNYCpVOvOLsvtjtNfrc4Op-oupz1w4OwBPiXympRHQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJrqPH9sAonZXbF3S6Szqz+3SVzqgopM2ArD_WJrUHVeZuv0TQ@mail.gmail.com>

Bill-

Although I'm an Android guy, I was going to recommend you just switch to
the iPhone and Apple Watch, although honestly, there is still going to be a
learning curve for you based on what your wrote here.   Apple does their
best to keep it simple though (which is actually one of the reasons I DON'T
like them, lol).   Anyways, my wife and daughter both use Apple and I am a
tech guy so I have a pretty good handle on them even though I don't
personally use them.

It exceeds your price range by a little bit, but I bought my daughter an
Iphone XR as her first phone before she entered Middle School (she's in 7th
now).   While I regret giving in on allowing her a phone since they zombify
kids, the phone itself is great.  It's very large, and is a lot more
powerful than a 6.   Retail on it is $499.   I'd recommend you consider it
if you're looking for a phone with a big screen.   There are other choices
if you hate big screens that I could recommend.   She also has an Apple
Watch 5 which works very nicely with it.

https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-iphone/iphone-xr

On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 5:15 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Goodbye Samsung, hello Apple. My daughter convinces me that the new
> smartwatch from Apple will be the best for the heart functions I need.
> Thus I am selling two Samsung 5 phones and returning the Samsung watch.
>
> I called Apple and they said that the oldest iphone that would work with
> the newest watch is the model 6.  I can afford more than that, though
> certainly not the newest model.  Under $400 preferable though not firm.
>
> Any recommendations for iPhone model?  Do you have it?
>
> bill w
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201106/53d15135/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Nov  6 23:44:06 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 17:44:06 -0600
Subject: [ExI] iphone
In-Reply-To: <CAJrqPH9sAonZXbF3S6Szqz+3SVzqgopM2ArD_WJrUHVeZuv0TQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEadMNYCpVOvOLsvtjtNfrc4Op-oupz1w4OwBPiXympRHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrqPH9sAonZXbF3S6Szqz+3SVzqgopM2ArD_WJrUHVeZuv0TQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaYjyBJZNGu+Or8iHzkT16ZVn4DZPzZw1MvSg0303Zn7A@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Dylan - I have changed my mind.  As in used cars, the top of the
line resells better, holds its value, than the lower models.  So I am going
for the top of the line, gold stainless steel cases and all, for both the
phone Pro Max 12 and the watch.  My daughter and grandson have iPhones, so
I will have help from them that I do not have with the Samsung gear.  I
will go out in style (pun intended!) Aren't credit cards wonderful things?
 bill w

bill w

On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 4:28 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Bill-
>
> Although I'm an Android guy, I was going to recommend you just switch to
> the iPhone and Apple Watch, although honestly, there is still going to be a
> learning curve for you based on what your wrote here.   Apple does their
> best to keep it simple though (which is actually one of the reasons I DON'T
> like them, lol).   Anyways, my wife and daughter both use Apple and I am a
> tech guy so I have a pretty good handle on them even though I don't
> personally use them.
>
> It exceeds your price range by a little bit, but I bought my daughter an
> Iphone XR as her first phone before she entered Middle School (she's in 7th
> now).   While I regret giving in on allowing her a phone since they zombify
> kids, the phone itself is great.  It's very large, and is a lot more
> powerful than a 6.   Retail on it is $499.   I'd recommend you consider it
> if you're looking for a phone with a big screen.   There are other choices
> if you hate big screens that I could recommend.   She also has an Apple
> Watch 5 which works very nicely with it.
>
> https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-iphone/iphone-xr
>
> On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 5:15 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Goodbye Samsung, hello Apple. My daughter convinces me that the new
>> smartwatch from Apple will be the best for the heart functions I need.
>> Thus I am selling two Samsung 5 phones and returning the Samsung watch.
>>
>> I called Apple and they said that the oldest iphone that would work with
>> the newest watch is the model 6.  I can afford more than that, though
>> certainly not the newest model.  Under $400 preferable though not firm.
>>
>> Any recommendations for iPhone model?  Do you have it?
>>
>> bill w
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201106/539d8451/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Nov  7 01:19:09 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 19:19:09 -0600
Subject: [ExI] not a joke quote
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaehzQzOy_C9jS4iHQNQ1DEsQb-d1RKmG+QmaRkB4qBgA@mail.gmail.com>

I have seen three streets in my life named Hemlock.  All were dead ends.

What are the odds?

bill w
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201106/890d7fa3/attachment.htm>

From bronto at pobox.com  Sat Nov  7 01:32:36 2020
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 17:32:36 -0800
Subject: [ExI] not a joke quote
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaehzQzOy_C9jS4iHQNQ1DEsQb-d1RKmG+QmaRkB4qBgA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaehzQzOy_C9jS4iHQNQ1DEsQb-d1RKmG+QmaRkB4qBgA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4b804eaa-7745-2cb0-0814-f7c4099274e9@pobox.com>

On 2020-11-06 17:19, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:
> I have seen three streets in my life named Hemlock.? All were dead ends.
> 
> What are the odds?

I've known several streets named Euclid, all of them crooked.

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org



From bronto at pobox.com  Sat Nov  7 03:01:59 2020
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 19:01:59 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Beyond Meat
In-Reply-To: <12a8f0b9-f543-1aa4-ccf3-51bb421154d8@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.76.1604618778.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <12a8f0b9-f543-1aa4-ccf3-51bb421154d8@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <5456b3ab-4cee-a882-8270-2acda4ce6654@pobox.com>

On 2020-11-06 12:29, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote:
> This group, I'm sure, will over-value some kinds of intelligence,
> and under-value or even totally discount others. I'm trying to
> overcome that bias, [....]

Provoking me somehow[*] to ask: How many of you read SlateStarCodex?
It is one of many things I look at less often that I'd prefer.

* Likely the phrase "overcome bias" led my thought to Robin's blog, from 
which Less Wrong and SSC are short hops.

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sat Nov  7 05:12:48 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2020 13:12:48 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Film: Monsters of Man
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1ywYDu8_qo7uBPhZci4GjhjwTFZnTt2tBRTxH+LJ+pJQ@mail.gmail.com>

 "A robotics company vying to win a lucrative military contract team up
with a corrupt CIA agent to conduct an illegal live field test. They deploy
four weaponized prototype robots into a suspected drug manufacturing camp
in the Golden Triangle, assuming they'd be killing drug runners that no one
would miss. Six doctors on a humanitarian mission witness the brutal
slaughter and become prime targets."

Somehow aerial drones killing people with missiles, is something I can
tolerate. But the idea of land-based robot infantry/special forces like
this truly horrifies me. I find this scenario to be the beginning of hell
on Earth. And in time we will get "moving minefields" that wait to
activate, and then follow you until they are in killing range to explode.
Oh, and don't forget mosquito sized or smaller flying robots that inject
deadly poison! Human beings, especially in the third world, will be
terrorized by such weapons. And then eventually we will have the nanobot
utility fog of death.

I hope that we will have legal bans on such weapons, but I have my
doubts...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfUGbaUu7os

John
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201107/3d345c16/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Nov  7 07:00:11 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2020 01:00:11 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Film: Monsters of Man
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy1ywYDu8_qo7uBPhZci4GjhjwTFZnTt2tBRTxH+LJ+pJQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy1ywYDu8_qo7uBPhZci4GjhjwTFZnTt2tBRTxH+LJ+pJQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaqctLc_CCzsdwc84Djv1qRxwFmGAvUnEzXYhRFs3j0Jw@mail.gmail.com>

It terrifies me as well.  From that baseball movie Field of Dreams: "If you
build it they will come."  If such gadgets are made, someone will use them,
just like we are now awaiting renegades./terrorists to get their hands on
enough plutonium.  bill w

bill w

On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 11:09 PM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> "A robotics company vying to win a lucrative military contract team up
> with a corrupt CIA agent to conduct an illegal live field test. They deploy
> four weaponized prototype robots into a suspected drug manufacturing camp
> in the Golden Triangle, assuming they'd be killing drug runners that no one
> would miss. Six doctors on a humanitarian mission witness the brutal
> slaughter and become prime targets."
>
> Somehow aerial drones killing people with missiles, is something I can
> tolerate. But the idea of land-based robot infantry/special forces like
> this truly horrifies me. I find this scenario to be the beginning of hell
> on Earth. And in time we will get "moving minefields" that wait to
> activate, and then follow you until they are in killing range to explode.
> Oh, and don't forget mosquito sized or smaller flying robots that inject
> deadly poison! Human beings, especially in the third world, will be
> terrorized by such weapons. And then eventually we will have the nanobot
> utility fog of death.
>
> I hope that we will have legal bans on such weapons, but I have my
> doubts...
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfUGbaUu7os
>
> John
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201107/797e6336/attachment-0001.htm>

From ben at zaiboc.net  Sat Nov  7 13:51:12 2020
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2020 13:51:12 +0000
Subject: [ExI] smartwatch update
In-Reply-To: <mailman.80.1604732437.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.80.1604732437.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <d4b2bc84-98bc-643f-314a-3cd254ca89de@zaiboc.net>

On 07/11/2020 07:00, Dave Sill wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 2:40 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat 
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org 
> <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>> wrote:
>
>
>     There was no instruction as to how to turn it off, or even if you
>     were supposed to, so I bought not one but two manuals for it on
>     Amazon, one marked 'senior'.
>
>
> Why would you want to turn it off?

Wow.

Was that a joke? Or do you work for the company that makes these devices?


-- 
Ben Zaiboc

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201107/be2612c9/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Nov  7 14:04:45 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2020 08:04:45 -0600
Subject: [ExI] smartwatch update
In-Reply-To: <d4b2bc84-98bc-643f-314a-3cd254ca89de@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.80.1604732437.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <d4b2bc84-98bc-643f-314a-3cd254ca89de@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbDs8CaPpo_wL8r79NrC52-pvTTPCUjEe+fVFu4O+3Dbw@mail.gmail.com>

I don't understand some of this.  Why turn it off?  Save battery life.
bill w

On Sat, Nov 7, 2020 at 7:53 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On 07/11/2020 07:00, Dave Sill wrote:
>
> On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 2:40 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> There was no instruction as to how to turn it off, or even if you were
>> supposed to, so I bought not one but two manuals for it on Amazon, one
>> marked 'senior'.
>>
>
> Why would you want to turn it off?
>
>
> Wow.
>
> Was that a joke? Or do you work for the company that makes these devices?
>
>
> --
> Ben Zaiboc
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201107/6bd299eb/attachment.htm>

From sparge at gmail.com  Sat Nov  7 14:19:06 2020
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2020 09:19:06 -0500
Subject: [ExI] smartwatch update
In-Reply-To: <d4b2bc84-98bc-643f-314a-3cd254ca89de@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.80.1604732437.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <d4b2bc84-98bc-643f-314a-3cd254ca89de@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fJwYyAmP7URP0unV9EnrCRkbarHSMBGcEsKdmUcXT1mw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Nov 7, 2020 at 8:53 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On 07/11/2020 07:00, Dave Sill wrote:
>
> Why would you want to turn it off?
>
> Wow.
>
> Was that a joke? Or do you work for the company that makes these devices?
>

No, no joke. Have you ever seen a watch with an on/off switch, either
mechanical or electronic? Why would you ever want to turn a watch off?

If you're worried about Big Brother, either don't wear a smart watch or buy
a Faraday bag for it when you want to go offline.

-Dave
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201107/03ccb97f/attachment.htm>

From sparge at gmail.com  Sat Nov  7 14:24:29 2020
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2020 09:24:29 -0500
Subject: [ExI] smartwatch update
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbDs8CaPpo_wL8r79NrC52-pvTTPCUjEe+fVFu4O+3Dbw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.80.1604732437.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <d4b2bc84-98bc-643f-314a-3cd254ca89de@zaiboc.net>
 <CAO+xQEbDs8CaPpo_wL8r79NrC52-pvTTPCUjEe+fVFu4O+3Dbw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fUvDz_ZKNiU8rxZrwR6Ux3fFVQsOwS5eOoN1vwPvB2Jw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Nov 7, 2020 at 9:06 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I don't understand some of this.  Why turn it off?  Save battery life.
> bill w
>

If you turn it off, it's no longer keeping time, monitoring your heart,
reminding you to take your meds, etc. Just recharge it as needed.

-Dave
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201107/0bbed689/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Nov  7 14:26:38 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2020 08:26:38 -0600
Subject: [ExI] smartwatch update
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2fJwYyAmP7URP0unV9EnrCRkbarHSMBGcEsKdmUcXT1mw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.80.1604732437.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <d4b2bc84-98bc-643f-314a-3cd254ca89de@zaiboc.net>
 <CAM5aL2fJwYyAmP7URP0unV9EnrCRkbarHSMBGcEsKdmUcXT1mw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaKc9nhUwhU7O1mzLxEm-X=P=oXHQN97PkV1wOa1=kBsg@mail.gmail.com>

Dave, I am about as open a person as you can find.  Big Brother can know
anything they want to about me - how I vote, what I buy, just anything.  I
have nothing to hide (well, a little drug use here and there, but that's
too many people to arrest).   I am not going to wear the thing to bed, so
it makes sense to me to turn it off. Samsung conditioned me:  if I leave my
Galaxy on the battery will run down in a little over a day.  Maybe my new
iPhone when it comes out will change my mind.  bill w

On Sat, Nov 7, 2020 at 8:21 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Sat, Nov 7, 2020 at 8:53 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> On 07/11/2020 07:00, Dave Sill wrote:
>>
>> Why would you want to turn it off?
>>
>> Wow.
>>
>> Was that a joke? Or do you work for the company that makes these devices?
>>
>
> No, no joke. Have you ever seen a watch with an on/off switch, either
> mechanical or electronic? Why would you ever want to turn a watch off?
>
> If you're worried about Big Brother, either don't wear a smart watch or
> buy a Faraday bag for it when you want to go offline.
>
> -Dave
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201107/5c7bc530/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Nov  7 14:32:26 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2020 08:32:26 -0600
Subject: [ExI] smartwatch update
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2fUvDz_ZKNiU8rxZrwR6Ux3fFVQsOwS5eOoN1vwPvB2Jw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.80.1604732437.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <d4b2bc84-98bc-643f-314a-3cd254ca89de@zaiboc.net>
 <CAO+xQEbDs8CaPpo_wL8r79NrC52-pvTTPCUjEe+fVFu4O+3Dbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fUvDz_ZKNiU8rxZrwR6Ux3fFVQsOwS5eOoN1vwPvB2Jw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEb6KQuMSw12ASRe9b=wCerio_3uQtV1HshmiUUPco6e4g@mail.gmail.com>

Dave - you are assuming that I am going to wear it to bed.  And I might,
depending on what the heart apps on my new phone say.  I have to take it
off sometime to charge it.   bill w

On Sat, Nov 7, 2020 at 8:28 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Sat, Nov 7, 2020 at 9:06 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> I don't understand some of this.  Why turn it off?  Save battery life.
>> bill w
>>
>
> If you turn it off, it's no longer keeping time, monitoring your heart,
> reminding you to take your meds, etc. Just recharge it as needed.
>
> -Dave
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201107/5873f3a7/attachment.htm>

From sparge at gmail.com  Sat Nov  7 14:57:31 2020
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2020 09:57:31 -0500
Subject: [ExI] smartwatch update
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEb6KQuMSw12ASRe9b=wCerio_3uQtV1HshmiUUPco6e4g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.80.1604732437.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <d4b2bc84-98bc-643f-314a-3cd254ca89de@zaiboc.net>
 <CAO+xQEbDs8CaPpo_wL8r79NrC52-pvTTPCUjEe+fVFu4O+3Dbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fUvDz_ZKNiU8rxZrwR6Ux3fFVQsOwS5eOoN1vwPvB2Jw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEb6KQuMSw12ASRe9b=wCerio_3uQtV1HshmiUUPco6e4g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2dQUiYbstKKNFDUv8dy2ngMvYrqEqifJDUb7AftUKL2Jw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Nov 7, 2020 at 9:41 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Dave - you are assuming that I am going to wear it to bed.  And I might,
> depending on what the heart apps on my new phone say.  I have to take it
> off sometime to charge it.
>

I'm not assuming anything. Take it off whenever you want. Charge it when it
needs it. Powering a watch off is pretty silly.

I repeat: have you ever seen a watch with an on/off switch?

-Dave
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201107/8a8d31fe/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Nov  7 15:23:11 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2020 09:23:11 -0600
Subject: [ExI] smartwatch update
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2dQUiYbstKKNFDUv8dy2ngMvYrqEqifJDUb7AftUKL2Jw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.80.1604732437.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <d4b2bc84-98bc-643f-314a-3cd254ca89de@zaiboc.net>
 <CAO+xQEbDs8CaPpo_wL8r79NrC52-pvTTPCUjEe+fVFu4O+3Dbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fUvDz_ZKNiU8rxZrwR6Ux3fFVQsOwS5eOoN1vwPvB2Jw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEb6KQuMSw12ASRe9b=wCerio_3uQtV1HshmiUUPco6e4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2dQUiYbstKKNFDUv8dy2ngMvYrqEqifJDUb7AftUKL2Jw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbOQejL49nrFrW7qVy4=7VsDqWEcpNyC_zr3GrEx7=zmw@mail.gmail.com>

I repeat: have you ever seen a watch with an on/off switch?

*-Dave*

* No, but then battery operated watches don't need new batteries every few
days, either.  *
*I have no idea at this point how long a battery charge lasts on a
smartwatch.  I think this Samsung ran down after two or three days.  bill w*

On Sat, Nov 7, 2020 at 8:59 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Sat, Nov 7, 2020 at 9:41 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Dave - you are assuming that I am going to wear it to bed.  And I might,
>> depending on what the heart apps on my new phone say.  I have to take it
>> off sometime to charge it.
>>
>
> I'm not assuming anything. Take it off whenever you want. Charge it when
> it needs it. Powering a watch off is pretty silly.
>
> I repeat: have you ever seen a watch with an on/off switch?
>
> -Dave
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201107/9c2977f7/attachment.htm>

From robot at ultimax.com  Sat Nov  7 15:34:59 2020
From: robot at ultimax.com (robot at ultimax.com)
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2020 10:34:59 -0500
Subject: [ExI] not a joke quote
In-Reply-To: <mailman.81.1604732437.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.81.1604732437.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <c680ddd4ed68060c23beecdbb0588e43@ultimax.com>

Driving northwest along Pellissippi Parkway from Knoxville into Oak 
Ridge TN, before the Solway Bridge, you will see on your right just 
before you hit gasoline alley, a little street to the right.
It's named "Jim Jones Lane".
On the same pole is "DEAD END".

That can't possibly be an accident.  Somebody in the urban planning 
department over there has a sick sense of humor.

Look it up on Street View in Google Maps if you don't believe me.

K3

On 2020-11-07 02:00, extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org wrote:
> Message: 12
> Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 17:32:36 -0800
> From: Anton Sherwood <bronto at pobox.com>
> To: William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> 	<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] not a joke quote
> Message-ID: <4b804eaa-7745-2cb0-0814-f7c4099274e9 at pobox.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
> 
> On 2020-11-06 17:19, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:
>> I have seen three streets in my life named Hemlock.? All were dead 
>> ends.
>> 
>> What are the odds?
> 
> I've known several streets named Euclid, all of them crooked.

From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Nov  7 16:04:48 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2020 08:04:48 -0800
Subject: [ExI] not a joke quote
In-Reply-To: <c680ddd4ed68060c23beecdbb0588e43@ultimax.com>
References: <mailman.81.1604732437.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <c680ddd4ed68060c23beecdbb0588e43@ultimax.com>
Message-ID: <00cd01d6b51f$b8674e80$2935eb80$@rainier66.com>

 

 

> On Behalf Of Robert G. Kennedy III, PE via extropy-chat
...

>.It's named "Jim Jones Lane".

On the same pole is "DEAD END".

 

>.That can't possibly be an accident.  Somebody in the urban planning
department over there has a sick sense of humor.

 

>.K3

 

 

In order to know for sure, we would need to see if it was already Jim Jones
Lane before 1978.  I don't know how one determines that information.  This
isn't important to me, but to people in the urban planning department, it
would be.

 

spike

 



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201107/f6a7b92b/attachment.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image001.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 20082 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201107/f6a7b92b/attachment.jpg>

From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Nov  8 19:34:36 2020
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2020 11:34:36 -0800
Subject: [ExI] smartwatch update
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2dQUiYbstKKNFDUv8dy2ngMvYrqEqifJDUb7AftUKL2Jw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.80.1604732437.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <d4b2bc84-98bc-643f-314a-3cd254ca89de@zaiboc.net>
 <CAO+xQEbDs8CaPpo_wL8r79NrC52-pvTTPCUjEe+fVFu4O+3Dbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fUvDz_ZKNiU8rxZrwR6Ux3fFVQsOwS5eOoN1vwPvB2Jw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEb6KQuMSw12ASRe9b=wCerio_3uQtV1HshmiUUPco6e4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2dQUiYbstKKNFDUv8dy2ngMvYrqEqifJDUb7AftUKL2Jw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSFRe0o_vgDRNf5adjK1tJov1jE9q6LjMhFwQJXVQxuDQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Nov 7, 2020 at 6:59 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> have you ever seen a watch with an on/off switch?
>

I have seen watches with a power-saving mode switch that was labeled
"on/off".  When "off" they would still track time, deliver time-related
reminders (coming out of power-saving mode automatically to do so), and so
on, but wouldn't run apps (save for ones that said to keep running even
when power-saving, such as ones that deliver time-related reminders) or -
most critically for battery life - power the display or (if they had a
touchscreen) monitor any touchscreen input.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201108/d8c449dc/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Nov  8 20:12:32 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2020 14:12:32 -0600
Subject: [ExI] smartwatch update
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSFRe0o_vgDRNf5adjK1tJov1jE9q6LjMhFwQJXVQxuDQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.80.1604732437.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <d4b2bc84-98bc-643f-314a-3cd254ca89de@zaiboc.net>
 <CAO+xQEbDs8CaPpo_wL8r79NrC52-pvTTPCUjEe+fVFu4O+3Dbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fUvDz_ZKNiU8rxZrwR6Ux3fFVQsOwS5eOoN1vwPvB2Jw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEb6KQuMSw12ASRe9b=wCerio_3uQtV1HshmiUUPco6e4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2dQUiYbstKKNFDUv8dy2ngMvYrqEqifJDUb7AftUKL2Jw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSFRe0o_vgDRNf5adjK1tJov1jE9q6LjMhFwQJXVQxuDQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaLaEZC+2K2UD0Dt3wu0ihqWM0e7pD69kqeeJmb1Atnxg@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks.  Am buying iPhone 12 Pro Max - should have all the bells and
whistles.  I'll look for that application.
bill w

On Sun, Nov 8, 2020 at 1:37 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Sat, Nov 7, 2020 at 6:59 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> have you ever seen a watch with an on/off switch?
>>
>
> I have seen watches with a power-saving mode switch that was labeled
> "on/off".  When "off" they would still track time, deliver time-related
> reminders (coming out of power-saving mode automatically to do so), and so
> on, but wouldn't run apps (save for ones that said to keep running even
> when power-saving, such as ones that deliver time-related reminders) or -
> most critically for battery life - power the display or (if they had a
> touchscreen) monitor any touchscreen input.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201108/832cacb7/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Nov  9 11:30:34 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 19:30:34 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Film: Monsters of Man
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaqctLc_CCzsdwc84Djv1qRxwFmGAvUnEzXYhRFs3j0Jw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy1ywYDu8_qo7uBPhZci4GjhjwTFZnTt2tBRTxH+LJ+pJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaqctLc_CCzsdwc84Djv1qRxwFmGAvUnEzXYhRFs3j0Jw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1YfU9HHHHgi7agmBpHNgcFAT6ZUHswjvDw=_x8ZR_V1Q@mail.gmail.com>

I can imagine third world dictators using cheap knock off land drone
infantry to terrorize their own populations. But of course Russia and China
will have them too, not just for external wars, but in case the citizenry
get ideas about rising up.

On Sat, Nov 7, 2020 at 3:03 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> It terrifies me as well.  From that baseball movie Field of Dreams: "If
> you build it they will come."  If such gadgets are made, someone will use
> them, just like we are now awaiting renegades./terrorists to get their
> hands on enough plutonium.  bill w
>
> bill w
>
> On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 11:09 PM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> "A robotics company vying to win a lucrative military contract team up
>> with a corrupt CIA agent to conduct an illegal live field test. They deploy
>> four weaponized prototype robots into a suspected drug manufacturing camp
>> in the Golden Triangle, assuming they'd be killing drug runners that no one
>> would miss. Six doctors on a humanitarian mission witness the brutal
>> slaughter and become prime targets."
>>
>> Somehow aerial drones killing people with missiles, is something I can
>> tolerate. But the idea of land-based robot infantry/special forces like
>> this truly horrifies me. I find this scenario to be the beginning of hell
>> on Earth. And in time we will get "moving minefields" that wait to
>> activate, and then follow you until they are in killing range to explode.
>> Oh, and don't forget mosquito sized or smaller flying robots that inject
>> deadly poison! Human beings, especially in the third world, will be
>> terrorized by such weapons. And then eventually we will have the nanobot
>> utility fog of death.
>>
>> I hope that we will have legal bans on such weapons, but I have my
>> doubts...
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfUGbaUu7os
>>
>> John
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201109/a1573434/attachment-0001.htm>

From ben at zaiboc.net  Mon Nov  9 17:17:18 2020
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 17:17:18 +0000
Subject: [ExI] smartwatch update
In-Reply-To: <mailman.84.1604921101.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.84.1604921101.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <5423f2c5-5d8f-5f38-c599-d51c207ab318@zaiboc.net>

On 09/11/2020 11:25, Dave Sill wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 7, 2020 at 8:53 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat 
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org 
> <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>> wrote:
>
>     On 07/11/2020 07:00, Dave Sill wrote:
>>     Why would you want to turn it off?
>     Wow.
>
>     Was that a joke? Or do you work for the company that makes these
>     devices?
>
>
> No, no joke. Have you ever seen a watch with an on/off switch, either 
> mechanical or electronic? Why would you ever want to turn a watch off?


That's taking the term 'watch' too literally. These things are only 
incidentally watches. They are computers with a bunch of sensors, that 
you strap to your wrist. Not being able to turn them off when you want 
(for whatever reason, this isn't something anyone needs to justify) 
would be totally unacceptable. Would you buy a car with an engine that 
you couldn't turn off? A TV? A video recorder? Has anyone actually read 
1984? (yes, I know, the Chinese government has, but that's not what I 
mean. I'm talking about taking it as a warning, not an instruction manual).


"If you turn it off, it's no longer keeping time, monitoring your heart, 
reminding you to take your meds, etc. Just recharge it as needed."

This is beside the point. It's my device. I should be able to decide 
when it's on and when it's off, not the manufacturer. Simple as that*.

And you can switch it off, as someone else explained a few posts ago. So 
that's fine. It's just the attitude 'why would you want to?' that 
astonishes me. Just dumbly accept what the manufacturers sell you, no 
questions asked, no control allowed or even desired. That's how you 
sleepwalk into a dystopia.

Actually, it seems there are already smartphones that you literally 
can't turn off, can't even remove the battery. Perhaps we're already 
halfway there.


* Of course, nothing's actually that simple. Your computer doesn't stop 
keeping time when it's off (neither should a smart watch), so the 
concept of 'off' is a bit of a moving target (a bit like death). My 
point stands, though, that it's the user that should have the ability to 
be in control of their devices, not the manufacturer, software company, 
media corporation, government, etc. The message of TRON seems to have 
become lost somewhere in the last few decades.

-- 
Ben Zaiboc

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201109/03d28d5a/attachment.htm>

From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Nov  9 18:03:39 2020
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 10:03:39 -0800
Subject: [ExI] smartwatch update
In-Reply-To: <5423f2c5-5d8f-5f38-c599-d51c207ab318@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.84.1604921101.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <5423f2c5-5d8f-5f38-c599-d51c207ab318@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQUhwxTNSoeK7DmxrAjv3Qu9_Z9Oxrdpk7XQJz5e-Q1NQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 9:18 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> And you can switch it off, as someone else explained a few posts ago. So
> that's fine. It's just the attitude 'why would you want to?' that
> astonishes me.
>

The problem is that people are using different definitions of "off".

When you say "turn the watch off", you mean to put it in a power-saving
mode where it still keeps time.

Others hear "remove all power, stop it from keeping time, and basically
wreck the device".  "Why would you want to" essentially smash your device
to pieces?

Yes, I know, you mean nothing approximating "smash it to pieces".  But
that's what others have read in your words.  That is the problem.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201109/f11db816/attachment.htm>

From sparge at gmail.com  Mon Nov  9 18:10:06 2020
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 13:10:06 -0500
Subject: [ExI] smartwatch update
In-Reply-To: <5423f2c5-5d8f-5f38-c599-d51c207ab318@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.84.1604921101.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <5423f2c5-5d8f-5f38-c599-d51c207ab318@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2dxZHQ01HBWyNOL4VZ_b2z5K9aevOmBW29fuB+--q7HUQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 12:19 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> That's taking the term 'watch' too literally. These things are only
> incidentally watches. They are computers with a bunch of sensors, that you
> strap to your wrist. Not being able to turn them off when you want (for
> whatever reason, this isn't something anyone needs to justify) would be
> totally unacceptable.
>

I suppose. But the primary reason for the capability to power off is to
reboot the operating system.


> Would you buy a car with an engine that you couldn't turn off?
>

Like a Tesla that's always in stand-by so it can be summoned?


> A TV?
>

Dollars to donuts, your TV doesn't power off, it also goes into stand-by
mode. Or do you have to get up and push a button to turn it back on instead
of using the remote?

A video recorder? Has anyone actually read 1984?
>

Of course.

And you can switch it off, as someone else explained a few posts ago. So
> that's fine. It's just the attitude 'why would you want to?' that
> astonishes me. Just dumbly accept what the manufacturers sell you, no
> questions asked, no control allowed or even desired. That's how you
> sleepwalk into a dystopia.
>

I'm not dumbly accepting anything. I don't use a watch. I've got a smart
phone but I know what the risks are and I accept them.

If you "dumbly accept" that having a power button really gives you control,
maybe you shouldn't.

Actually, it seems there are already smartphones that you literally can't
> turn off, can't even remove the battery. Perhaps we're already halfway
> there.
>

Use a Faraday bag, while it's still legal. :-)

https://www.amazon.com/faraday-bag/s?k=faraday+bag

-Dave
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201109/b3dc58b2/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 10 12:48:08 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 20:48:08 +0800
Subject: [ExI] African Innovation Week
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy0pXF33K5inY4QyuFjdcWtKiKuFPTjhOAf9ruBrzxupKA@mail.gmail.com>

I came across this interesting investment conference for African start-ups
that is currently going on. About a *thousand* start-ups will make their
pitch to potential investors! I think Africa is finally at a point where
good things are going to start happening for their development and the
citizenry. We should all find a promising start-up and invest something!
You never know...

The event is free and people communicate via Zoom.

https://www.eventbrite.com/e/african-innovation-week-2020-tickets-123663517911

https://www.africaninnovationweek.com/

John
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201110/79ee1496/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Nov 10 15:25:13 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 07:25:13 -0800
Subject: [ExI] vaccine maybe
Message-ID: <006801d6b775$af962e40$0ec28ac0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

OK cool sounds like a vaccine for covid is on the way.

 

How many here plan on getting immediately?  I don't: I am in a very low
contact lifestyle.  At this point I judge my risk of getting that vaccine
higher than my risk of not.  My entire family is low-contact at this point.

 

spike

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201110/024facbb/attachment.htm>

From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu  Tue Nov 10 16:03:19 2020
From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 11:03:19 -0500
Subject: [ExI] vaccine maybe
In-Reply-To: <006801d6b775$af962e40$0ec28ac0$@rainier66.com>
References: <006801d6b775$af962e40$0ec28ac0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <DD11FF66-19AF-49B3-88C8-FD51D4F9AF77@alumni.virginia.edu>

I?ll get it ASAP, and I?ll get early access as a frontline healthcare provider. As long as it gets FDA approval, I?m game. 

I?m not trying to catch this as I have comorbid conditions, and I?m not trying to inadvertently and prematurely kill any elderly people. 

-Henry

> On Nov 10, 2020, at 10:25 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> ?
>  
>  
> OK cool sounds like a vaccine for covid is on the way.
>  
> How many here plan on getting immediately?  I don?t: I am in a very low contact lifestyle.  At this point I judge my risk of getting that vaccine higher than my risk of not.  My entire family is low-contact at this point.
>  
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201110/28a47f88/attachment.htm>

From sparge at gmail.com  Tue Nov 10 16:13:01 2020
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 11:13:01 -0500
Subject: [ExI] vaccine maybe
In-Reply-To: <006801d6b775$af962e40$0ec28ac0$@rainier66.com>
References: <006801d6b775$af962e40$0ec28ac0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2cwY-iCj+4q9ZsMHnh+D8SzoLeY8h3SdP6H=9J8vM7=7Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 10:27 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> How many here plan on getting immediately?
>

I'll get it when it's readily available. My only risk factor is my age (60).

-Dave
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201110/e1c2cbdd/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Nov 10 16:16:29 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 08:16:29 -0800
Subject: [ExI] vaccine maybe
In-Reply-To: <DD11FF66-19AF-49B3-88C8-FD51D4F9AF77@alumni.virginia.edu>
References: <006801d6b775$af962e40$0ec28ac0$@rainier66.com>
 <DD11FF66-19AF-49B3-88C8-FD51D4F9AF77@alumni.virginia.edu>
Message-ID: <008901d6b77c$d96bb2b0$8c431810$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: Henry Rivera <hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu> 
Subject: Re: [ExI] vaccine maybe

 

 

 

 

 

>>?How many here plan on getting immediately? 

 

 

>?I?ll get it ASAP, and I?ll get early access as a frontline healthcare provider?

-Henry

 

 

 

Good thanks, Henry.  Those who have a lotta contact with the proletariat will be doing a good deed in a way: accepting the risk of a new vaccine, which (if it works) reduces the collective risk.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201110/7865e1fb/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Nov 10 16:28:29 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 08:28:29 -0800
Subject: [ExI] vaccine maybe
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2cwY-iCj+4q9ZsMHnh+D8SzoLeY8h3SdP6H=9J8vM7=7Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006801d6b775$af962e40$0ec28ac0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAM5aL2cwY-iCj+4q9ZsMHnh+D8SzoLeY8h3SdP6H=9J8vM7=7Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00a801d6b77e$86be5070$943af150$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> 
Subject: Re: [ExI] vaccine maybe

 

On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 10:27 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

 

>>?How many here plan on getting immediately?

 

>?I'll get it when it's readily available. My only risk factor is my age (60).

 

-Dave

 

 

 

Indeed sir?  I had concluded from your posts that you are about 30.  I am also 60.  Dave you present with the self-confidence of a young person.

 

Cool thanks for that confidence in the vaccine.  Every person who takes it provides useful data on side effects and efficacy.  I will take the vaccine before the risk balance is in my favor, as a kind of public service sorta.  It?s a judgment call when that is: at first the risk is unknown for taking it (presumed small) but the risk of not taking it is known (very small in my case (my only contact with the proletariat is geezer hour at Walmart (0600 Tuesday mornings (and there aren?t many of us in there at that time of day.)))

 

I have high hopes for this being the end the scourge.

 

Disclaimer: I own some Pfizer stock (but not much (so the announcement was a payday in a sense (but not much of one (all the stocks went up a lot on the announcement (so it was a payday for all of us in that way (puzzling observation: Pfizer went up about the same percentage as all the others (I don?t get it.))))))

 

spike

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201110/451dba51/attachment.htm>

From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Nov 10 16:42:48 2020
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 16:42:48 +0000
Subject: [ExI] vaccine maybe
In-Reply-To: <006801d6b775$af962e40$0ec28ac0$@rainier66.com>
References: <006801d6b775$af962e40$0ec28ac0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armg_W=W1aheGLHwzzm-gt=sB7DybqXt2BeXN0Ww18_bDOg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 10 Nov 2020 at 15:28, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> OK cool sounds like a vaccine for covid is on the way.
>
> How many here plan on getting immediately?  I don?t: I am in a very low
> lifestyle.  At this point I judge my risk of getting that vaccine higher than
> my risk of not.  My entire family is low-contact at this point.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


I plan to be cautious and wait about a month after a vaccine becomes available.
I'd like to see what side effects happen first and how effective it is.
(The annual flu jab only offers about 50% protection).
The Pharma companies are rushing to be first past the post so as to
get huge profits while insisting on a no-sue clause in their
contracts. Pfizer has an experimental mRNA-based vaccine which is
unique so far.
The best suggestion I've read is that the super-spreaders should get
it first - *not* the most vulnerable. The elderly and most vulnerable
are more likely to react badly to whatever side-effects appear.



BillK


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 10 16:52:18 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 10:52:18 -0600
Subject: [ExI] vaccine maybe
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armg_W=W1aheGLHwzzm-gt=sB7DybqXt2BeXN0Ww18_bDOg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006801d6b775$af962e40$0ec28ac0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armg_W=W1aheGLHwzzm-gt=sB7DybqXt2BeXN0Ww18_bDOg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYLxs-KZW7wzdLnPgxGdvz+k+w01rTjZ5hja5gEbjUWiQ@mail.gmail.com>

I will get it if my doctors urge it.  I have all the bad factors;  age,
heart problems.  I would juggle rabid cats if I thought it would help.
bill w

On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 10:45 AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Tue, 10 Nov 2020 at 15:28, spike jones via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > OK cool sounds like a vaccine for covid is on the way.
> >
> > How many here plan on getting immediately?  I don?t: I am in a very low
> > lifestyle.  At this point I judge my risk of getting that vaccine higher
> than
> > my risk of not.  My entire family is low-contact at this point.
> >
> > spike
> > _______________________________________________
>
>
> I plan to be cautious and wait about a month after a vaccine becomes
> available.
> I'd like to see what side effects happen first and how effective it is.
> (The annual flu jab only offers about 50% protection).
> The Pharma companies are rushing to be first past the post so as to
> get huge profits while insisting on a no-sue clause in their
> contracts. Pfizer has an experimental mRNA-based vaccine which is
> unique so far.
> The best suggestion I've read is that the super-spreaders should get
> it first - *not* the most vulnerable. The elderly and most vulnerable
> are more likely to react badly to whatever side-effects appear.
>
>
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201110/9cb12ce9/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Nov 10 17:22:11 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 09:22:11 -0800
Subject: [ExI] vaccine maybe
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armg_W=W1aheGLHwzzm-gt=sB7DybqXt2BeXN0Ww18_bDOg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006801d6b775$af962e40$0ec28ac0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armg_W=W1aheGLHwzzm-gt=sB7DybqXt2BeXN0Ww18_bDOg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00da01d6b786$0734f4a0$159edde0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2020 8:43 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>; wk <wkidston at outlook.com>
Cc: BillK <pharos at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] vaccine maybe

On Tue, 10 Nov 2020 at 15:28, spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> OK cool sounds like a vaccine for covid is on the way.
>
> How many here plan on getting immediately?  I don?t: I am in a very 
> low lifestyle.  At this point I judge my risk of getting that vaccine 
> higher than my risk of not.  My entire family is low-contact at this point.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


I plan to be cautious and wait about a month after a vaccine becomes available.
I'd like to see what side effects happen first and how effective it is.
(The annual flu jab only offers about 50% protection).
The Pharma companies are rushing to be first past the post so as to get huge profits while insisting on a no-sue clause in their contracts. Pfizer has an experimental mRNA-based vaccine which is unique so far.
The best suggestion I've read is that the super-spreaders should get it first - *not* the most vulnerable. The elderly and most vulnerable are more likely to react badly to whatever side-effects appear.



BillK

_______________________________________________


I am in that camp too BillK: I will get the vaccine when it has been around for about a month or two, probably still before the risk balance is equal but there are societal benefits to having more data.

What we need is some kind of scale to estimate negative side effects.  For instance, I get the flu shot every year (for about the past 15 yrs) and have only caught once since then.  Cool!  Side effect, very slight if any.

However... I took the shingles vaccination, oh mercy.  I was so sick both times, it was worse than a typical flu both rounds, the second one perhaps worse than the first.  After it was over, my doctor told me those are only good for about 10 yrs, owwww damn.

Regarding shutdowns, Florida ended its shutdown on 26 September.  At that time, the 7 day rolling averages, the most logical way to average the daily numbers, were new cases in Florida: 


New cases per day in Florida on 26 September:  2492
New cases per day in Florida on 10 November: 5109

Factor change in new cases in Florida after end of shutdown:  2.05

New fatalities per day in Florida on 26 September:  104
New fatalities per day in Florida on 10 November: 50

Factor change in fatalities in Florida after end of shutdown:  0.48



New cases USA on 26 September :  41716 
New cases in USA 10 November:  117552

Factor change in new cases in USA after end of Florida shutdown:  2.82

New cases USA on 26 September :  764  
New cases in USA 10 November:  1001

Factor change in fatalities in USA after end of Florida shutdown:  1.31



New cases world on 26 September :  41716 
New cases in world 10 November:  117552

Factor change in new cases in world after end of Florida shutdown:  1.91

New cases world on 26 September :  764  
New cases in world 10 November:  1001

Factor change in fatalities in world after end of Florida shutdown:  1.58



We know that the new case rate is a function of testing: that one is guesswork really:

Ratio of covid new case rates in Florida before and after end Florida shutdown: 2.05
Ratio of covid new case rates in USA before and after end Florida shutdown: 2.82
Ratio of covid new case rates in world before and after end Florida shutdown: 1.91


OK so...  the new case rate, which has a short signal time: doubled in Florida and world, nearly tripled in USA.  

Fatality rate, which we know (from China data) takes 64 days from caught it to bought it:


Ratio of covid fatality rates in Florida before and after end Florida shutdown: 0.48
Ratio of covid fatality rates in USA before and after end Florida shutdown: 1.31
Ratio of covid fatality rates in world before and after end Florida shutdown: 1.58


Tentative conclusion: shutdowns don't help much in catching vs not catching.  We need to wait another 18 days before we can determine whether masks are effective in influencing the fatality rate.

Good luck to us.

spike



From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Nov 10 17:49:00 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 09:49:00 -0800
Subject: [ExI] vaccine maybe
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYLxs-KZW7wzdLnPgxGdvz+k+w01rTjZ5hja5gEbjUWiQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006801d6b775$af962e40$0ec28ac0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armg_W=W1aheGLHwzzm-gt=sB7DybqXt2BeXN0Ww18_bDOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYLxs-KZW7wzdLnPgxGdvz+k+w01rTjZ5hja5gEbjUWiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00f301d6b789$c624a060$526de120$@rainier66.com>

 

 

> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] vaccine maybe

 

I will get it if my doctors urge it.  I have all the bad factors;  age, heart problems.  I would juggle rabid cats if I thought it would help.  bill w

 

 

 

Billw ja, me too, but it isn?t simple: new vaccines can do harm.  We already know that existing flu vaccines are less effective and higher risk for older patients with comorbids.  Do let me urge everyone to listen to your doctor and do as he or she recommends, as indicated in Billw?s first sentence.  

 

This presumes of course that one has a smart doctor.

 

spike

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201110/3f3984bf/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 10 18:20:25 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 12:20:25 -0600
Subject: [ExI] vaccine maybe
In-Reply-To: <00f301d6b789$c624a060$526de120$@rainier66.com>
References: <006801d6b775$af962e40$0ec28ac0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armg_W=W1aheGLHwzzm-gt=sB7DybqXt2BeXN0Ww18_bDOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYLxs-KZW7wzdLnPgxGdvz+k+w01rTjZ5hja5gEbjUWiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <00f301d6b789$c624a060$526de120$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEav=yrvEeOYBjPgXgfwAvd9eN9V1e8T-Lkw91d_sGFo6g@mail.gmail.com>

How many drugs have been approved and then just a few years later are
involved in a lot of law suits?  There are no guarantees when it comes to
side effects of drugs.

Smart doctors - you have to be with one for quite some time to judge.  I
have had A+ doctors, A-, B, down to C-.  I have been misdiagnosed by three
different skin doctors - no danger was involved, but still......the data
was right there on my face, plain to see.

Some of them don't keep up with the literature - have to give them some
slack here - so busy taking on as many clients as they can get they have no
time to keep up with everything.  This includes specialists.  I find things
on the web and ask them - no idea, never heard of it, etc.

Like any ratings, ratings of physicians can be very informative and also
very curious and misleading.  Those who give the ratings;  how much do they
know?  I have been tempted to ask a doctor how often he has been sued, but
so far I have not done it.

bill w  (I have tons more to say about the way too many doctors I have had
to go to, mostly negative)

On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 11:51 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] vaccine maybe
>
>
>
> I will get it if my doctors urge it.  I have all the bad factors;  age,
> heart problems.  I would juggle rabid cats if I thought it would help.
> bill w
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Billw ja, me too, but it isn?t simple: new vaccines can do harm.  We
> already know that existing flu vaccines are less effective and higher risk
> for older patients with comorbids.  Do let me urge everyone to listen to
> your doctor and do as he or she recommends, as indicated in Billw?s first
> sentence.
>
>
>
> This presumes of course that one has a smart doctor.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201110/978a61a9/attachment-0001.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 10 19:50:27 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 13:50:27 -0600
Subject: [ExI] beautiful nature images
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYS7qn8UyVOfXC7EOh=wwu=-0_fKZ3Dfjd3n2KHoNmXmQ@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.nature.com/immersive/d41586-020-02893-2/index.html?
<https://www.nature.com/immersive/d41586-020-02893-2/index.html?utm_source=Nature+Briefing&utm_campaign=898f7d70df-briefing-dy-20201110&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_c9dfd39373-898f7d70df-44834745>

We are lucky water bears are not toxic like bacteria and viruses can be.
Hard to kill.  Do you first see the lake as convex?

bill w
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201110/a7df59bc/attachment.htm>

From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Nov 10 21:39:12 2020
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 21:39:12 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Massive galaxies grew in the early universe
Message-ID: <CAL_armiGB7SdDRzDvwMMcaV1u-W8MMHVJ6NY9aZNmuAU1-Q3+g@mail.gmail.com>

This research might help Spike's worries about gravitational waves
from the early universe.

<https://knowridge.com/2020/10/massive-galaxies-were-surprisingly-mature-in-the-early-universe-says-study/>

Quote:
Massive galaxies were surprisingly mature in the early universe, says study.
By National Radio Astronomy Observatory       October 29, 2020

Massive galaxies were already much more mature in the early universe
than previously expected.
This was shown by an international team of astronomers who studied 118
distant galaxies with the Atacama Large Millimeter/submillimeter Array
(ALMA).

Most galaxies formed when the universe was still very young.
Our own galaxy, for example, likely started forming 13.6 billion years
ago, in our 13.8 billion-year-old universe.

When the universe was only ten percent of its current age (1-1.5
billion years after the Big Bang), most of the galaxies experienced a
?growth spurt?.
During this time, they built up most of their stellar mass and other
properties, such as dust, heavy element content, and spiral-disk
shapes, that we see in today?s galaxies.
------------

BillK


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 09:01:13 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 17:01:13 +0800
Subject: [ExI] beautiful nature images
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYS7qn8UyVOfXC7EOh=wwu=-0_fKZ3Dfjd3n2KHoNmXmQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYS7qn8UyVOfXC7EOh=wwu=-0_fKZ3Dfjd3n2KHoNmXmQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3NX-RQ_oEtffLzu-e3_T8HdTmkqyyot6DLVUc99hvB9w@mail.gmail.com>

William Flynn Wallace wrote:
"We are lucky water bears are not toxic like bacteria and viruses can be.
Hard to kill.  Do you first see the lake as convex?"

I can just imagine it now.... Weaponized water bears!!!!!!

On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 3:53 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> https://www.nature.com/immersive/d41586-020-02893-2/index.html?
> <https://www.nature.com/immersive/d41586-020-02893-2/index.html?utm_source=Nature+Briefing&utm_campaign=898f7d70df-briefing-dy-20201110&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_c9dfd39373-898f7d70df-44834745>
>
> We are lucky water bears are not toxic like bacteria and viruses can be.
> Hard to kill.  Do you first see the lake as convex?
>
> bill w
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201111/6b09e4ac/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 09:45:03 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 17:45:03 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Massive galaxies grew in the early universe
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armiGB7SdDRzDvwMMcaV1u-W8MMHVJ6NY9aZNmuAU1-Q3+g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armiGB7SdDRzDvwMMcaV1u-W8MMHVJ6NY9aZNmuAU1-Q3+g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy22rUAqRcw+SnL+TBrJbiK7wYnzY8o=r6YUOAx8sb+MXA@mail.gmail.com>

BillK wrote:
"Most galaxies formed when the universe was still very young.
Our own galaxy, for example, likely started forming 13.6 billion years
ago, in our 13.8 billion-year-old universe.

When the universe was only ten percent of its current age (1-1.5
billion years after the Big Bang), most of the galaxies experienced a
?growth spurt?."

This gets me to thinking about the possible existence of early progenitor
"elder god" races who have since died out or disappeared to other realms.

Oh, and speaking of great passages of time and biological life... I read
the book years ago, and plan to see the film soon...  :  )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUzeN39Oc5w

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_and_First_Men

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/last_and_first_men



On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 5:43 AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> This research might help Spike's worries about gravitational waves
> from the early universe.
>
> <
> https://knowridge.com/2020/10/massive-galaxies-were-surprisingly-mature-in-the-early-universe-says-study/
> >
>
> Quote:
> Massive galaxies were surprisingly mature in the early universe, says
> study.
> By National Radio Astronomy Observatory       October 29, 2020
>
> Massive galaxies were already much more mature in the early universe
> than previously expected.
> This was shown by an international team of astronomers who studied 118
> distant galaxies with the Atacama Large Millimeter/submillimeter Array
> (ALMA).
>
> Most galaxies formed when the universe was still very young.
> Our own galaxy, for example, likely started forming 13.6 billion years
> ago, in our 13.8 billion-year-old universe.
>
> When the universe was only ten percent of its current age (1-1.5
> billion years after the Big Bang), most of the galaxies experienced a
> ?growth spurt?.
> During this time, they built up most of their stellar mass and other
> properties, such as dust, heavy element content, and spiral-disk
> shapes, that we see in today?s galaxies.
> ------------
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201111/6dbe03d5/attachment.htm>

From giulio at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 11:10:07 2020
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 12:10:07 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Terasem Colloquium, December 10: Howard Bloom, David Brin,
 Gabriel Rothblatt
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfy1j2hLF49bO3a=rD04kM7eL4WSDzDfqwf3fUbwroN1A@mail.gmail.com>

Terasem Colloquium, December 10: Howard Bloom, David Brin, Gabriel Rothblatt

Howard Bloom, David Brin, and Gabriel Rothblatt (among others) will
speak at the Terasem Colloquium on December 10, 2020...

https://turingchurch.net/terasem-colloquium-december-10-howard-bloom-david-brin-gabriel-rothblatt-9ca5e45c5ea5

From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Nov 11 13:49:00 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 05:49:00 -0800
Subject: [ExI] cold peace
Message-ID: <001101d6b831$69407ab0$3bc17010$@rainier66.com>

 

 

Hey cool, a new cold war between US and Russia, but peaceful and helpful
this time, no nukes required.

 

The commies have just announced that they have a covid vaccine.  Now we get
to have a contest to see whose vaccine is better and faster.

 

Is this cool or what?

 

spike

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201111/ef3face8/attachment.htm>

From danust2012 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 14:20:58 2020
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 06:20:58 -0800
Subject: [ExI] cold peace
In-Reply-To: <001101d6b831$69407ab0$3bc17010$@rainier66.com>
References: <001101d6b831$69407ab0$3bc17010$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <2B6BE2ED-B4C4-4749-B64B-7A8A52164655@gmail.com>

On Nov 11, 2020, at 5:51 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> Hey cool, a new cold war between US and Russia, but peaceful and helpful this time, no nukes required.
>  
> The commies have just announced that they have a covid vaccine.  Now we get to have a contest to see whose vaccine is better and faster.
>  
> Is this cool or what?

I can?t keep up with this. Didn?t they (the Russian government) approve a vaccine in September? Is this a new one?

You keep referring to them (presumably the Russians) as ?commies.?

Regards,

Dan
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201111/f07739ba/attachment.htm>

From interzone at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 14:23:18 2020
From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 09:23:18 -0500
Subject: [ExI] cold peace
In-Reply-To: <2B6BE2ED-B4C4-4749-B64B-7A8A52164655@gmail.com>
References: <001101d6b831$69407ab0$3bc17010$@rainier66.com>
 <2B6BE2ED-B4C4-4749-B64B-7A8A52164655@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJrqPH-k5xAZkOsX8b6atBMNen=Dt=FMehMzbyBH4zf0acH=mw@mail.gmail.com>

They actually approved it in August.  It's the same vaccine as before.
They're just making noise about it again because of the US/PFE announcement.

On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 9:21 AM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Nov 11, 2020, at 5:51 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Hey cool, a new cold war between US and Russia, but peaceful and helpful
> this time, no nukes required.
>
>
>
> The commies have just announced that they have a covid vaccine.  Now we
> get to have a contest to see whose vaccine is better and faster.
>
>
>
> Is this cool or what?
>
>
> I can?t keep up with this. Didn?t they (the Russian government) approve a
> vaccine in September? Is this a new one?
>
> You keep referring to them (presumably the Russians) as ?commies.?
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201111/39f32a42/attachment.htm>

From danust2012 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 14:42:38 2020
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 06:42:38 -0800
Subject: [ExI] cold peace
In-Reply-To: <CAJrqPH-k5xAZkOsX8b6atBMNen=Dt=FMehMzbyBH4zf0acH=mw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJrqPH-k5xAZkOsX8b6atBMNen=Dt=FMehMzbyBH4zf0acH=mw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F611ADCB-BB28-4E6B-A7F9-7B767A819623@gmail.com>

On Nov 11, 2020, at 6:29 AM, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:?
> 
> They actually approved it in August.  It's the same vaccine as before.  They're just making noise about it again because of the US/PFE announcement.

Thanks! I recalled something and was wondering if they had a second vaccine in the works. Actually, searching online shows Russia has approved two vaccines: EpiVacCorona and Sputnik V. The former was approved in mid-October. Approved by the Russian government... 

Regards,

Dan

From interzone at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 14:46:01 2020
From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 09:46:01 -0500
Subject: [ExI] cold peace
In-Reply-To: <F611ADCB-BB28-4E6B-A7F9-7B767A819623@gmail.com>
References: <CAJrqPH-k5xAZkOsX8b6atBMNen=Dt=FMehMzbyBH4zf0acH=mw@mail.gmail.com>
 <F611ADCB-BB28-4E6B-A7F9-7B767A819623@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJrqPH8zOk3SSu3e=Hmq1iE6S92rXFugiCBKUFSoGfRrF3Oj_g@mail.gmail.com>

Yeah, I was talking about the Sputnik V.  I hadn't noticed they had a
second one as well, thanks.

On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 9:43 AM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Nov 11, 2020, at 6:29 AM, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:?
> >
> > They actually approved it in August.  It's the same vaccine as before.
> They're just making noise about it again because of the US/PFE announcement.
>
> Thanks! I recalled something and was wondering if they had a second
> vaccine in the works. Actually, searching online shows Russia has approved
> two vaccines: EpiVacCorona and Sputnik V. The former was approved in
> mid-October. Approved by the Russian government...
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201111/9b301cfe/attachment.htm>

From avant at sollegro.com  Wed Nov 11 14:52:07 2020
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 06:52:07 -0800
Subject: [ExI] stoopid kwestchyuns
Message-ID: <20201111065207.Horde.wBCvMeYXRoD9kRlRRS5x_zG@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>


Quoting Darin Sunley:

> Yes. they are different, and different in a structurally interesting way.

> An omniscient agent contains a structure that is homeomorphic with its
> entire containing universe [possibly except for itself, depending on what
> you mean by omniscience],

I mean omniscience literally as "knowing all", which by definition  
includes the self and all possible pasts, presents, and futures.  
Although I do agree you run into Russell's self-containing-set  
paradoxes in that direction.

> and mechanisms for continuously updating that
> structure to keep it in correspondence with the entire containing universe.

What you seem to be describing here is a quasi-omniscient agent. One  
that knows the present state of the universe but does not know the  
past or future states. Why would a truly omniscient agent need to  
update? It already knows all by definition doesn't it? That includes  
itself and all possible pasts and futures. Since an omniscient agent  
already knows all, then it is impossible for an omniscient agent to be  
informed by anything. Thus all communication directed toward an  
omniscient agent contains zero Shannon entropy/information relative to  
that agent. Thus calling into question whether an omniscient agent has  
any agency at all.

As Will Steinberg observed it does seem to reduce to the question of  
free will: If God already knows everything that is going to happen  
including his own future decisions and their outcomes, then does God  
have free will?

> A totally ignorant agent contains no internal structures with any
> correspondence to the structure of the containing universe except by
> chance, and no mechanisms to synchronize any part of that structure with
> any part of the surrounding universe.

Are not the various physical and chemical equilibria examples of  
synchronization with the surrounding universe? What about quantum  
entanglement?

Stuart LaForge



From avant at sollegro.com  Wed Nov 11 14:53:54 2020
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 06:53:54 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Massive galaxies grew in the early universe
Message-ID: <20201111065354.Horde.j9tkimDya6FOqLIlnQvf6be@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>


On Tuesday, November 10, 2020, 01:40:22 PM PST, BillK via extropy-chat  
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:


> This research might help Spike's worries about gravitational waves
from the early universe.
>
> <https://knowridge.com/2020/10/massive-galaxies-were-surprisingly-mature-in-the-early-universe-says-study/>
>
> Quote:
>
> Most galaxies formed when the universe was still very young.
> Our own galaxy, for example, likely started forming 13.6 billion years
> ago, in our 13.8 billion-year-old universe.

I do think that galaxies have a surprising amount of structure for  
their age. To put this into perspective, consider that the sun and our  
solar system orbits the galactic nucleus once every 230 million years.  
That means that there has only been enough time for our sun to have  
orbited the galaxy about 60 times since the big bang. To have gone  
from a nearly homogenous cloud of dust and gas to the beautiful spiral  
disk shape in less than 60 revolutions seems unbelievably fast.  
Especially since most computer simulations I have seen online seem to  
have the galaxy spinning like a top and many more than 60 times.

For example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-25dEcY-WU


Stuart LaForge



From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 18:10:21 2020
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 10:10:21 -0800
Subject: [ExI] cold peace
In-Reply-To: <001101d6b831$69407ab0$3bc17010$@rainier66.com>
References: <001101d6b831$69407ab0$3bc17010$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRGcn63gn9_3u8Hd8Dq_TyNyC2k8vWKYxL32wwDaC4PGw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 5:51 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> The commies have just announced that they have a covid vaccine.  Now we
> get to have a contest to see whose vaccine is better and faster.
>
>
>
> Is this cool or what?
>

I don't know.  How much refrigeration does their vaccine require?  ;)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201111/17292148/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 18:47:44 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 12:47:44 -0600
Subject: [ExI] stoopid kwestchyuns
In-Reply-To: <20201111065207.Horde.wBCvMeYXRoD9kRlRRS5x_zG@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <20201111065207.Horde.wBCvMeYXRoD9kRlRRS5x_zG@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY0qVyQgn40NeET18-DySZRgU93qgH+qWUv+66159GyDg@mail.gmail.com>

What you seem to be describing here is a quasi-omniscient agent. One
that knows the present state of the universe but does not know the past or
future states
 stuart
This has totally blown my mind for today.  If it were a truly intelligent
thing, it could easily 'predict' the past.  How did things get this way?
It must have been that.........

Similarly, knowing the above means being able to predict the future with
some accuracy from the theories the thing developed in understanding the
past.

On the other hand, if the past is a complete mystery, the thing cannot
understand the present at all, much less the future.  It can know 'what'
but not 'how' or 'why'.  Just descriptive concepts of what is out there.

bill w

On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 8:58 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> Quoting Darin Sunley:
>
> > Yes. they are different, and different in a structurally interesting way.
>
> > An omniscient agent contains a structure that is homeomorphic with its
> > entire containing universe [possibly except for itself, depending on what
> > you mean by omniscience],
>
> I mean omniscience literally as "knowing all", which by definition
> includes the self and all possible pasts, presents, and futures.
> Although I do agree you run into Russell's self-containing-set
> paradoxes in that direction.
>
> > and mechanisms for continuously updating that
> > structure to keep it in correspondence with the entire containing
> universe.
>
> What you seem to be describing here is a quasi-omniscient agent. One
> that knows the present state of the universe but does not know the
> past or future states. Why would a truly omniscient agent need to
> update? It already knows all by definition doesn't it? That includes
> itself and all possible pasts and futures. Since an omniscient agent
> already knows all, then it is impossible for an omniscient agent to be
> informed by anything. Thus all communication directed toward an
> omniscient agent contains zero Shannon entropy/information relative to
> that agent. Thus calling into question whether an omniscient agent has
> any agency at all.
>
> As Will Steinberg observed it does seem to reduce to the question of
> free will: If God already knows everything that is going to happen
> including his own future decisions and their outcomes, then does God
> have free will?
>
> > A totally ignorant agent contains no internal structures with any
> > correspondence to the structure of the containing universe except by
> > chance, and no mechanisms to synchronize any part of that structure with
> > any part of the surrounding universe.
>
> Are not the various physical and chemical equilibria examples of
> synchronization with the surrounding universe? What about quantum
> entanglement?
>
> Stuart LaForge
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201111/14e475a3/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 18:57:41 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 12:57:41 -0600
Subject: [ExI] inner talk; idle curiosity
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYzMcD1QLGcwC68ze074dTKM3hqb6Bqa=EadVrq-fFrew@mail.gmail.com>

If I had been asked if everyone talked to themselves, had images of what
they were reading , and so on, I would have thought:  don't most people.
Answer: No.  So, on a gloomy day I just thought I'd ask:

Do you talk to yourself when you are doing mathematics, solving an
engineering problem, perhaps?

How about when you are composing an email or some other written piece?

Do you listen to music in your head?  Even compose it?

Do you imagine the feel of some object, skin, fabric, tree bark when you
see it?  You may be surprised at some of these questions , but not all
people do these things.

Any response you make is normal.  I think.

bill w

bill w
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201111/c8d26aac/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 19:24:53 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 13:24:53 -0600
Subject: [ExI] algebra
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbdyTZOQhevSKDyHcyo+BNyob_+i422ZHCcxi_tX3zr6A@mail.gmail.com>

Can anyone figure out what this guy is saying?    bill w

my daughter.

She was excluded from school, long story, and having home tutoring. Said
tutor was trying to teach my daughter all about algebra. For 7 months, I
watched the tutor struggle to make sense enough for my daughter to grasp
the concept.

I got a bit worried when the tutor started yelling at my daughter. So, I
asked if I could try. She let me have a go, as she smugly stepped aside and
said that if she couldn't, with her specialist knowledge, I sure as hell
couldn't do any better, but as time was wasting, go ahead.

*First thing I said to my daughter was?. Do the sum backwards. If it shows
plus, you minus, and if it shows division, you multiply. So, start with
what you know, and work backwards.*

Daughter got it in an instant!! Tutor tests her with more complex
equations, daughter got it right! Tutor spen over an hour testing her, and
finally had to agree that my rather daft method, although it went against
all her teaching, actually worked!!

Tutor asked me how I knew this. Just told her that that is how I do it? She
asked if she could use it to teach others. I said of course she could, I
don't own the method!!

We later had a chat and I said that because 7 of my 8 kids had disabilities
and additional needs, I had had to be creative about how each child
learned. And that if they aren't learning, I'm not teaching them right. She
thanked me and actually became a much nicer tutor after that. I guess I
opened her eyes a little.

There are no bad students, only bad teachers!!
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201111/dfdce684/attachment-0001.htm>

From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 19:57:51 2020
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 11:57:51 -0800
Subject: [ExI] algebra
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbdyTZOQhevSKDyHcyo+BNyob_+i422ZHCcxi_tX3zr6A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbdyTZOQhevSKDyHcyo+BNyob_+i422ZHCcxi_tX3zr6A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSO039K0DzpT=RpnDmmZQCUxyh+29jk5O7enx-j=Rb6mA@mail.gmail.com>

The person is describing an alternate method of handling a sum that that
person's daughter was better able to understand.

While the existence of people who can handle a sum backward but not forward
is questionable, the underlying message is true enough: there are many ways
of solving the same problem, so if a student doesn't understand one method,
having the student try other methods might be useful.

On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 11:26 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Can anyone figure out what this guy is saying?    bill w
>
> my daughter.
>
> She was excluded from school, long story, and having home tutoring. Said
> tutor was trying to teach my daughter all about algebra. For 7 months, I
> watched the tutor struggle to make sense enough for my daughter to grasp
> the concept.
>
> I got a bit worried when the tutor started yelling at my daughter. So, I
> asked if I could try. She let me have a go, as she smugly stepped aside and
> said that if she couldn't, with her specialist knowledge, I sure as hell
> couldn't do any better, but as time was wasting, go ahead.
>
> *First thing I said to my daughter was?. Do the sum backwards. If it shows
> plus, you minus, and if it shows division, you multiply. So, start with
> what you know, and work backwards.*
>
> Daughter got it in an instant!! Tutor tests her with more complex
> equations, daughter got it right! Tutor spen over an hour testing her, and
> finally had to agree that my rather daft method, although it went against
> all her teaching, actually worked!!
>
> Tutor asked me how I knew this. Just told her that that is how I do it?
> She asked if she could use it to teach others. I said of course she could,
> I don't own the method!!
>
> We later had a chat and I said that because 7 of my 8 kids had
> disabilities and additional needs, I had had to be creative about how each
> child learned. And that if they aren't learning, I'm not teaching them
> right. She thanked me and actually became a much nicer tutor after that. I
> guess I opened her eyes a little.
>
> There are no bad students, only bad teachers!!
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201111/55b5a283/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 20:14:32 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 14:14:32 -0600
Subject: [ExI] algebra
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSO039K0DzpT=RpnDmmZQCUxyh+29jk5O7enx-j=Rb6mA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbdyTZOQhevSKDyHcyo+BNyob_+i422ZHCcxi_tX3zr6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSO039K0DzpT=RpnDmmZQCUxyh+29jk5O7enx-j=Rb6mA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEa=y3fe9XTYAPhDhbJA7=kg-+qgBWnPGZMzA8A6DMV7Hg@mail.gmail.com>

He did mention that most of his children were disabled, but just how he
didn't say.  Doing things backwards can work for some dyslexics. (DAM -
Mothers against dyslexia)  But what does this have to do with algebra?
Spike is puzzled as well.   bil w

On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 2:00 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> The person is describing an alternate method of handling a sum that that
> person's daughter was better able to understand.
>
> While the existence of people who can handle a sum backward but not
> forward is questionable, the underlying message is true enough: there are
> many ways of solving the same problem, so if a student doesn't understand
> one method, having the student try other methods might be useful.
>
> On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 11:26 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Can anyone figure out what this guy is saying?    bill w
>>
>> my daughter.
>>
>> She was excluded from school, long story, and having home tutoring. Said
>> tutor was trying to teach my daughter all about algebra. For 7 months, I
>> watched the tutor struggle to make sense enough for my daughter to grasp
>> the concept.
>>
>> I got a bit worried when the tutor started yelling at my daughter. So, I
>> asked if I could try. She let me have a go, as she smugly stepped aside and
>> said that if she couldn't, with her specialist knowledge, I sure as hell
>> couldn't do any better, but as time was wasting, go ahead.
>>
>> *First thing I said to my daughter was?. Do the sum backwards. If it
>> shows plus, you minus, and if it shows division, you multiply. So, start
>> with what you know, and work backwards.*
>>
>> Daughter got it in an instant!! Tutor tests her with more complex
>> equations, daughter got it right! Tutor spen over an hour testing her, and
>> finally had to agree that my rather daft method, although it went against
>> all her teaching, actually worked!!
>>
>> Tutor asked me how I knew this. Just told her that that is how I do it?
>> She asked if she could use it to teach others. I said of course she could,
>> I don't own the method!!
>>
>> We later had a chat and I said that because 7 of my 8 kids had
>> disabilities and additional needs, I had had to be creative about how each
>> child learned. And that if they aren't learning, I'm not teaching them
>> right. She thanked me and actually became a much nicer tutor after that. I
>> guess I opened her eyes a little.
>>
>> There are no bad students, only bad teachers!!
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201111/286c27bc/attachment.htm>

From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 20:23:51 2020
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 20:23:51 +0000
Subject: [ExI] algebra
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEa=y3fe9XTYAPhDhbJA7=kg-+qgBWnPGZMzA8A6DMV7Hg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbdyTZOQhevSKDyHcyo+BNyob_+i422ZHCcxi_tX3zr6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSO039K0DzpT=RpnDmmZQCUxyh+29jk5O7enx-j=Rb6mA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEa=y3fe9XTYAPhDhbJA7=kg-+qgBWnPGZMzA8A6DMV7Hg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhrZO3xMwzJa35QsGa9szsqdw-qybszByPQFnYdzY-kaA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 11 Nov 2020 at 20:17, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> He did mention that most of his children were disabled, but just how he didn't say.  Doing things backwards can work for some dyslexics. (DAM - Mothers against dyslexia)  But what does this have to do with algebra?  Spike is puzzled as well.   bil w
>

I don't know if the system has a name, but this explains how it works.

<https://www.cliffsnotes.com/study-guides/basic-math/basic-math-and-pre-algebra/variables-algebraic-expressions-and-simple-equations/solving-simple-equations>


BillK

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 20:36:53 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 14:36:53 -0600
Subject: [ExI] algebra
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhrZO3xMwzJa35QsGa9szsqdw-qybszByPQFnYdzY-kaA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbdyTZOQhevSKDyHcyo+BNyob_+i422ZHCcxi_tX3zr6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSO039K0DzpT=RpnDmmZQCUxyh+29jk5O7enx-j=Rb6mA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEa=y3fe9XTYAPhDhbJA7=kg-+qgBWnPGZMzA8A6DMV7Hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhrZO3xMwzJa35QsGa9szsqdw-qybszByPQFnYdzY-kaA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbE5A1rvWngoKtpQQ_SUc1RAxvXNY-n9M+RK9p=CsOgCg@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks - I get it.  If things are multiplied, you divide and so on.  bill w

On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 2:26 PM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Wed, 11 Nov 2020 at 20:17, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > He did mention that most of his children were disabled, but just how he
> didn't say.  Doing things backwards can work for some dyslexics. (DAM -
> Mothers against dyslexia)  But what does this have to do with algebra?
> Spike is puzzled as well.   bil w
> >
>
> I don't know if the system has a name, but this explains how it works.
>
> <
> https://www.cliffsnotes.com/study-guides/basic-math/basic-math-and-pre-algebra/variables-algebraic-expressions-and-simple-equations/solving-simple-equations
> >
>
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201111/ec753cb4/attachment.htm>

From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 20:37:21 2020
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 12:37:21 -0800
Subject: [ExI] algebra
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEa=y3fe9XTYAPhDhbJA7=kg-+qgBWnPGZMzA8A6DMV7Hg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbdyTZOQhevSKDyHcyo+BNyob_+i422ZHCcxi_tX3zr6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSO039K0DzpT=RpnDmmZQCUxyh+29jk5O7enx-j=Rb6mA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEa=y3fe9XTYAPhDhbJA7=kg-+qgBWnPGZMzA8A6DMV7Hg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQ_fpgw4iS4vEGx5e5LpqSsvsFmQWHVdUb=vu3YkDGmBQ@mail.gmail.com>

The method described is to do algebra in reverse.

Say you had 1+2-3 = x.  The normal method is to do that left to right:
1+2-3 = x
3-3 = x
0 = x

The method here does it right to left:
1+2-3 = x
1+2 = x+3
1 = x+3-2
1 = x+1
0 = x+1-1
0 = x

It is more tedious than the first method - for people who can do the first
method.  The daughter described in this story had difficulty doing the
first method but was able to easily do the second method.

On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 12:16 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> He did mention that most of his children were disabled, but just how he
> didn't say.  Doing things backwards can work for some dyslexics. (DAM -
> Mothers against dyslexia)  But what does this have to do with algebra?
> Spike is puzzled as well.   bil w
>
> On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 2:00 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> The person is describing an alternate method of handling a sum that that
>> person's daughter was better able to understand.
>>
>> While the existence of people who can handle a sum backward but not
>> forward is questionable, the underlying message is true enough: there are
>> many ways of solving the same problem, so if a student doesn't understand
>> one method, having the student try other methods might be useful.
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 11:26 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Can anyone figure out what this guy is saying?    bill w
>>>
>>> my daughter.
>>>
>>> She was excluded from school, long story, and having home tutoring. Said
>>> tutor was trying to teach my daughter all about algebra. For 7 months, I
>>> watched the tutor struggle to make sense enough for my daughter to grasp
>>> the concept.
>>>
>>> I got a bit worried when the tutor started yelling at my daughter. So, I
>>> asked if I could try. She let me have a go, as she smugly stepped aside and
>>> said that if she couldn't, with her specialist knowledge, I sure as hell
>>> couldn't do any better, but as time was wasting, go ahead.
>>>
>>> *First thing I said to my daughter was?. Do the sum backwards. If it
>>> shows plus, you minus, and if it shows division, you multiply. So, start
>>> with what you know, and work backwards.*
>>>
>>> Daughter got it in an instant!! Tutor tests her with more complex
>>> equations, daughter got it right! Tutor spen over an hour testing her, and
>>> finally had to agree that my rather daft method, although it went against
>>> all her teaching, actually worked!!
>>>
>>> Tutor asked me how I knew this. Just told her that that is how I do it?
>>> She asked if she could use it to teach others. I said of course she could,
>>> I don't own the method!!
>>>
>>> We later had a chat and I said that because 7 of my 8 kids had
>>> disabilities and additional needs, I had had to be creative about how each
>>> child learned. And that if they aren't learning, I'm not teaching them
>>> right. She thanked me and actually became a much nicer tutor after that. I
>>> guess I opened her eyes a little.
>>>
>>> There are no bad students, only bad teachers!!
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201111/39a5de07/attachment.htm>

From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 21:24:15 2020
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 13:24:15 -0800
Subject: [ExI] algebra
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbdyTZOQhevSKDyHcyo+BNyob_+i422ZHCcxi_tX3zr6A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbdyTZOQhevSKDyHcyo+BNyob_+i422ZHCcxi_tX3zr6A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPdW9B6N3sXuO_PTFrXGeEWi-TNLewdh2K0yModhuOHfCg@mail.gmail.com>

I taught Physics in college for 7 years.
I was also educated in Italy up to college level education (I got my PhD in
the US).
I was astonished to see how many people do not know algebra when they
enroll in college Physics. In Italy, you mastered the concept at this point
and algebra should be trivial. It was not for my engineering and pre-med
students (the majority of them).
I discovered that one of the reasons is that Algebra is taught in a
unfamiliar (to me as an European educated person) and cumbersome way.
For example, when a variable is moved from one side of the equation to
another in the US they teach to multiply both sides by that variable. Of
course this is correct theoretically and not to difficult to execute for
mathematically inclined people, but even I that love math, I found it more
complicated that simply what they taught us in Italy, when you go from one
side to the other of the equal sign "flip" when you move it to the other
side what you want to move if sometime is a product (if it is a 2 it
becomes 1/2 for example) and change sign if it is a sum (-3 becomes + 3
when moved from one side to the other of the equation). I think this is
similar to what is explained in Bill's email.
You do have to use intuitive method when teaching math to young people
because it is not a natural concept.
It is something that our minds need to be trained to.
Giovanni




On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 11:26 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Can anyone figure out what this guy is saying?    bill w
>
> my daughter.
>
> She was excluded from school, long story, and having home tutoring. Said
> tutor was trying to teach my daughter all about algebra. For 7 months, I
> watched the tutor struggle to make sense enough for my daughter to grasp
> the concept.
>
> I got a bit worried when the tutor started yelling at my daughter. So, I
> asked if I could try. She let me have a go, as she smugly stepped aside and
> said that if she couldn't, with her specialist knowledge, I sure as hell
> couldn't do any better, but as time was wasting, go ahead.
>
> *First thing I said to my daughter was?. Do the sum backwards. If it shows
> plus, you minus, and if it shows division, you multiply. So, start with
> what you know, and work backwards.*
>
> Daughter got it in an instant!! Tutor tests her with more complex
> equations, daughter got it right! Tutor spen over an hour testing her, and
> finally had to agree that my rather daft method, although it went against
> all her teaching, actually worked!!
>
> Tutor asked me how I knew this. Just told her that that is how I do it?
> She asked if she could use it to teach others. I said of course she could,
> I don't own the method!!
>
> We later had a chat and I said that because 7 of my 8 kids had
> disabilities and additional needs, I had had to be creative about how each
> child learned. And that if they aren't learning, I'm not teaching them
> right. She thanked me and actually became a much nicer tutor after that. I
> guess I opened her eyes a little.
>
> There are no bad students, only bad teachers!!
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201111/40829d0f/attachment.htm>

From ben at zaiboc.net  Wed Nov 11 22:34:13 2020
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 22:34:13 +0000
Subject: [ExI] inner talk; idle curiosity
In-Reply-To: <mailman.92.1605122719.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.92.1605122719.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <f09f3547-6ffa-e5e6-7922-fb7029e49ce1@zaiboc.net>

On 11/11/2020 19:25, bill w asked:
> If I had been asked if everyone talked to themselves, had images of 
> what they were reading , and so on, I would have thought:? don't most 
> people. Answer: No.? So, on a gloomy day I just thought I'd ask:
>
> Do you talk to yourself when you are doing mathematics, solving an 
> engineering problem, perhaps?
>
> How about when you are composing an email or some other written piece?
>
> Do you listen to music in your head?? Even compose it?
>
> Do you imagine the feel?of?some object, skin, fabric, tree bark when 
> you see it? You may be surprised at some of these questions , but not 
> all people do these things.

Yes to all the above, except imagining the feel of something when I see 
it. I often do that, but not always.

I don't understand how anyone can think without doing those things 
(except the music, I can accept that there are people who don't play 
music in their heads most of the time. Poor buggers. I almost always 
have a tune in my head, so don't need constant background noise like 
some people seem to).

-- 
Ben Zaiboc

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201111/8a9e3bef/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 12 00:18:25 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 18:18:25 -0600
Subject: [ExI] inner talk; idle curiosity
In-Reply-To: <f09f3547-6ffa-e5e6-7922-fb7029e49ce1@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.92.1605122719.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <f09f3547-6ffa-e5e6-7922-fb7029e49ce1@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbgAxwa7Lwh4c2y0FvTsprCqJJ0aQjX6=xR2r=P=Lf14g@mail.gmail.com>

I have to have something going on up there or I will have to listen to
tinnitus - the various sounds I hear when not masked.  The people who say
they don't talk to themselves - how do they scold themselves?  Out loud?
bill w

On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 4:36 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On 11/11/2020 19:25, bill w asked:
>
> If I had been asked if everyone talked to themselves, had images of what
> they were reading , and so on, I would have thought:  don't most people.
> Answer: No.  So, on a gloomy day I just thought I'd ask:
>
> Do you talk to yourself when you are doing mathematics, solving an
> engineering problem, perhaps?
>
> How about when you are composing an email or some other written piece?
>
> Do you listen to music in your head?  Even compose it?
>
> Do you imagine the feel of some object, skin, fabric, tree bark when you
> see it?  You may be surprised at some of these questions , but not all
> people do these things.
>
>
> Yes to all the above, except imagining the feel of something when I see
> it. I often do that, but not always.
>
> I don't understand how anyone can think without doing those things (except
> the music, I can accept that there are people who don't play music in their
> heads most of the time. Poor buggers. I almost always have a tune in my
> head, so don't need constant background noise like some people seem to).
>
> --
> Ben Zaiboc
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201111/88007395/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 12 23:04:06 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 17:04:06 -0600
Subject: [ExI] put up with me
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbyBYkuQrixobL4rwnCY0GH++YT18Hw6O3FaePHR1Vy8g@mail.gmail.com>

It looks as though you may have to put up with me awhile longer.  Catheter
test showed nothing:  no buildup of LDL stuff, hence no stent, hence no
open heart surgery and so on.  (also no reason why I had an attack)

Actually with my low LDL, normal BP, and history of clean scans this is
exactly what I predicted. Even better I might be able to get off some of
these pills that make me dizzy and weak and short of breath.

If you feel as good about this as I do, you can make a large contribution
to fund-my-yacht-billw.com.  You don't want me to leave this life without
having owned a yacht, do you?  Of course not.

bill w
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201112/062bc5f3/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Nov 12 23:16:20 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 15:16:20 -0800
Subject: [ExI] put up with me
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbyBYkuQrixobL4rwnCY0GH++YT18Hw6O3FaePHR1Vy8g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbyBYkuQrixobL4rwnCY0GH++YT18Hw6O3FaePHR1Vy8g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <013301d6b949$d5590320$800b0960$@rainier66.com>

Excellent news BillW!

 

Eh, yacht schmacht: you can?t get decent internet out there.  

 

Our long-held notions on what would be really cool to have or do changed a lot with the internet: a lotta cool vacation spots don?t get good download speeds.

 

spike

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2020 3:04 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
Subject: [ExI] put up with me

 

It looks as though you may have to put up with me awhile longer.  Catheter test showed nothing:  no buildup of LDL stuff, hence no stent, hence no open heart surgery and so on.  (also no reason why I had an attack)

 

Actually with my low LDL, normal BP, and history of clean scans this is exactly what I predicted. Even better I might be able to get off some of these pills that make me dizzy and weak and short of breath.

 

If you feel as good about this as I do, you can make a large contribution to fund-my-yacht-billw.com <http://fund-my-yacht-billw.com> .  You don't want me to leave this life without having owned a yacht, do you?  Of course not.  

 

bill w

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201112/9d187039/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 13 14:39:24 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 08:39:24 -0600
Subject: [ExI] put up with me
In-Reply-To: <013301d6b949$d5590320$800b0960$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbyBYkuQrixobL4rwnCY0GH++YT18Hw6O3FaePHR1Vy8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <013301d6b949$d5590320$800b0960$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEa6Ga4QXrpvEGeOM4M-vBD+WA_cgT2yadh1xRJ2m7FNuA@mail.gmail.com>

Well then, how about funding a ride on a rocket to orbit, where I can kick
my own satellite out the door?  Then I can have my yacht.

FYI - my cholesterol was 170 - optimal - LDL 104. Optimal.  But last week,
in reviewing my stance on statins, I ran across a finding that statins
helped in heart cases even though your cholesterol was normal.  Yesterday
they ran it, and LDL was 49!! - total 104.

I have no idea where we go from here.  We don't know, and maybe won't know
what caused the heart attack, but I have avoided surgery, stents, etc.  Now
if I can just walk 100 feet without feeling out of breath......

Thanks for caring

bill w

On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 5:18 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Excellent news BillW!
>
>
>
> Eh, yacht schmacht: you can?t get decent internet out there.
>
>
>
> Our long-held notions on what would be really cool to have or do changed a
> lot with the internet: a lotta cool vacation spots don?t get good download
> speeds.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 12, 2020 3:04 PM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* [ExI] put up with me
>
>
>
> It looks as though you may have to put up with me awhile longer.  Catheter
> test showed nothing:  no buildup of LDL stuff, hence no stent, hence no
> open heart surgery and so on.  (also no reason why I had an attack)
>
>
>
> Actually with my low LDL, normal BP, and history of clean scans this is
> exactly what I predicted. Even better I might be able to get off some of
> these pills that make me dizzy and weak and short of breath.
>
>
>
> If you feel as good about this as I do, you can make a large contribution
> to fund-my-yacht-billw.com.  You don't want me to leave this life without
> having owned a yacht, do you?  Of course not.
>
>
>
> bill w
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201113/97369850/attachment-0001.htm>

From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Nov 13 15:04:02 2020
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 15:04:02 +0000
Subject: [ExI] put up with me
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEa6Ga4QXrpvEGeOM4M-vBD+WA_cgT2yadh1xRJ2m7FNuA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbyBYkuQrixobL4rwnCY0GH++YT18Hw6O3FaePHR1Vy8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <013301d6b949$d5590320$800b0960$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa6Ga4QXrpvEGeOM4M-vBD+WA_cgT2yadh1xRJ2m7FNuA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgr6n97+NX3AR8QoVYrmewnyh0hKi743uikOi+kb+h-yw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 at 14:42, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> I have no idea where we go from here.  We don't know, and maybe won't know what caused the heart attack, but I have avoided surgery, stents, etc.  Now if I can just walk 100 feet without feeling out of breath......
>
> bill w
> _______________________________________________


I bet you've been reading / looking at the news channels again!  :)
Too much stress!

<https://theconversation.com/the-matrix-is-already-here-social-media-promised-to-connect-us-but-left-us-isolated-scared-and-tribal-148799>
Quote:
I?m a psychiatrist who studies anxiety and stress, and I often write
about how our politics and culture are mired in fear and tribalism. My
co-author is a digital marketing expert who brings expertise to the
technological-psychological aspect of this discussion. With the nation
on edge, we believe it?s critical to look at how easily our society is
being manipulated into tribalism in the age of social media. Even
after the exhausting election cycle is over, the division persists, if
not widening, and conspiracy theories continue to emerge, grow and
divide on the social media.
Based on our knowledge of stress, fear and social media, we offer you
some ways to weather the next few days, and protect yourself against
the current divisive environment.
----------------

BillK


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 13 15:35:44 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 09:35:44 -0600
Subject: [ExI] put pain
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbP2RHDBZC_ksNymqD-6BBj7KsHnsvFE6uWLbuayf1_5Q@mail.gmail.com>

The idea that Trump (and this is here because it is not controversial)
could pull a coup is an idea that the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of
STaff, Gen. Mark MIlley has put paid to.

He said that the military does not take an oath to individuals but to the
Constitution.  Surely you have seen this story.

So what happens at the D of Defense is irrelevant.  They cannot order the
military to contravene the Constitution.

Worry gone, over, done with, put paid to.

Now can we worry about something else?

bill w
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201113/7c8ff34d/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 13 15:36:48 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 09:36:48 -0600
Subject: [ExI] put up with me
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgr6n97+NX3AR8QoVYrmewnyh0hKi743uikOi+kb+h-yw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbyBYkuQrixobL4rwnCY0GH++YT18Hw6O3FaePHR1Vy8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <013301d6b949$d5590320$800b0960$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa6Ga4QXrpvEGeOM4M-vBD+WA_cgT2yadh1xRJ2m7FNuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgr6n97+NX3AR8QoVYrmewnyh0hKi743uikOi+kb+h-yw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYkje-Srqz3ODWrF5DA8HSUKBkf4N5yu9CDG6yn8NxDRA@mail.gmail.com>

Yes,  Bill K, and I am glad I have been reading the news.  See my post of a
few minutes ago.   bill w

On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 9:06 AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 at 14:42, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > I have no idea where we go from here.  We don't know, and maybe won't
> know what caused the heart attack, but I have avoided surgery, stents,
> etc.  Now if I can just walk 100 feet without feeling out of breath......
> >
> > bill w
> > _______________________________________________
>
>
> I bet you've been reading / looking at the news channels again!  :)
> Too much stress!
>
> <
> https://theconversation.com/the-matrix-is-already-here-social-media-promised-to-connect-us-but-left-us-isolated-scared-and-tribal-148799
> >
> Quote:
> I?m a psychiatrist who studies anxiety and stress, and I often write
> about how our politics and culture are mired in fear and tribalism. My
> co-author is a digital marketing expert who brings expertise to the
> technological-psychological aspect of this discussion. With the nation
> on edge, we believe it?s critical to look at how easily our society is
> being manipulated into tribalism in the age of social media. Even
> after the exhausting election cycle is over, the division persists, if
> not widening, and conspiracy theories continue to emerge, grow and
> divide on the social media.
> Based on our knowledge of stress, fear and social media, we offer you
> some ways to weather the next few days, and protect yourself against
> the current divisive environment.
> ----------------
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201113/d28fe2c8/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 13 15:47:00 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 09:47:00 -0600
Subject: [ExI] AI detects conspiracy theories
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYR70QNob_kC6xYsoGNh1npE+Hyjf2HROSypWwhpwyRLg@mail.gmail.com>

https://theconversation.com/an-ai-tool-can-distinguish-between-a-conspiracy-theory-and-a-true-conspiracy-it-comes-down-to-how-easily-the-story-falls-apart-146282?
<https://theconversation.com/an-ai-tool-can-distinguish-between-a-conspiracy-theory-and-a-true-conspiracy-it-comes-down-to-how-easily-the-story-falls-apart-146282?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Latest%20from%20The%20Conversation%20for%20November%2013%202020%20-%201785417324&utm_content=Latest%20from%20The%20Conversation%20for%20November%2013%202020%20-%201785417324+CID_fd64476abae33be62b8d5e1af3804ea2&utm_source=campaign_monitor_us&utm_term=An%20AI%20tool%20can%20distinguish%20between%20a%20conspiracy%20theory%20and%20a%20true%20conspiracy%20%20it%20comes%20down%20to%20how%20easily%20the%20story%20falls%20apart>

bill w
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201113/8706d5db/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Nov 13 15:50:13 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 07:50:13 -0800
Subject: [ExI] put up with me
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEa6Ga4QXrpvEGeOM4M-vBD+WA_cgT2yadh1xRJ2m7FNuA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbyBYkuQrixobL4rwnCY0GH++YT18Hw6O3FaePHR1Vy8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <013301d6b949$d5590320$800b0960$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa6Ga4QXrpvEGeOM4M-vBD+WA_cgT2yadh1xRJ2m7FNuA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004b01d6b9d4$ad32c800$07985800$@rainier66.com>

Cool!

 

Work up to it, exercise, get rid of those pills, life is gooood?

 

spike

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 6:39 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] put up with me

 

 

>?Now if I can just walk 100 feet without feeling out of breath......

 

bill w

 

Lose the pills, exercise, work up to it.

 

Fun aside regarding yachts: boat people often dream of owning a craft worthy of going out to sea.  Eventually their ship comes in, and they can afford their dream, buy a boat, go out, first thing a lot of people discover: how boring it is out there.  You can?t go anywhere, there?s nothing to do.  You can fish (snore) you can copulate with whoever joined you (which is cool (but you coulda done that at home (and after that?))) you can start fixing your next meal, and so on but? there isn?t much to do out at sea.

 

Better alternative: cruise in a commercial rig.  You get to visit with the other touristas if you wish, play cards, or whatever you want to do, but it?s a bigger ship with more options, tiny fraction of the cost.

 

 

>?Well then, how about funding a ride on a rocket to orbit?

 

Eh, orbit schmorbit, lousy download speeds from  up there.  It isn?t even clear if the right term would still be download if one is downloading from orbit.  Life just doesn?t need that kind of data ambiguity.

 

Best wishes for a speedy recovery Billw.  We are glad you are still with us.  You are living proof that life is good.

 

spike

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201113/22d9dc9a/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Nov 13 15:58:26 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 07:58:26 -0800
Subject: [ExI] zoom creates language weirdness
Message-ID: <006a01d6b9d5$d2ded5c0$789c8140$@rainier66.com>

 

 

Thanks to BillW on another list for the idea:

 

The term banding together is redundant, but banding apart is an oxymoron.
Rather it was an oxymoron until covid forced our schools into Zoom.  Now our
HS band program is still with us, but in some ways better: the students
cannot play in unison online because of latency.  So. the teacher is
focusing on music theory, and we discovered she is really good at that.  

 

Now the students master their parts, record it with their home equipment (on
400 dollar ChromeBooks) with headphones playing the drum part so they can be
synchronized, then the bandleader volume adjusts the parts to balance, puts
it all together.  

 

Fun part: the pitches can be autotuned, so the product of their banding
apart is better than they can play if they band together.

 

spike

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201113/d2267e00/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Nov 13 16:17:45 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 08:17:45 -0800
Subject: [ExI] put up with me
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgr6n97+NX3AR8QoVYrmewnyh0hKi743uikOi+kb+h-yw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbyBYkuQrixobL4rwnCY0GH++YT18Hw6O3FaePHR1Vy8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <013301d6b949$d5590320$800b0960$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa6Ga4QXrpvEGeOM4M-vBD+WA_cgT2yadh1xRJ2m7FNuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgr6n97+NX3AR8QoVYrmewnyh0hKi743uikOi+kb+h-yw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008901d6b9d8$863e1b60$92ba5220$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat

>>...  Now if I can just walk 100 feet without feeling out of breath......
>
> bill w
> _______________________________________________


I bet you've been reading / looking at the news channels again!  :) Too much stress!

<https://theconversation.com/the-matrix-is-already-here-social-media-promised-to-connect-us-but-left-us-isolated-scared-and-tribal-148799>
Quote:
>>...I?m a psychiatrist who studies anxiety and stress, and I often write about how our politics and culture are mired in fear and tribalism....
----------------

BillK

_______________________________________________



BillK, I have long been puzzled why this phenomenon works so much on some people and others little or none at all.  I have at least one neighbor who appears to be on the brink of insanity over politics, or is acting as if she is.  But I have scarcely been affected at all.  I don't understand the difference between the two. 

spike



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 13 16:53:05 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 10:53:05 -0600
Subject: [ExI] put up with me
In-Reply-To: <004b01d6b9d4$ad32c800$07985800$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbyBYkuQrixobL4rwnCY0GH++YT18Hw6O3FaePHR1Vy8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <013301d6b949$d5590320$800b0960$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa6Ga4QXrpvEGeOM4M-vBD+WA_cgT2yadh1xRJ2m7FNuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <004b01d6b9d4$ad32c800$07985800$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY5_Rg63AMpgupunin+ySmTyZGusGsBaqsNZG09kMrTPw@mail.gmail.com>

I have been putting off the exercise til the tests were run.  Now I can
find out what I can do.  I do not know if the fatigue and shortness of
breath come from my pills (certain that some of it does) or from my heart.
Will know more after next visit.

The beta blocker may have to stay.  It lowers heart rate and that helps
protect the heart - makes great sense to me.  It's the BP ones that I want
to get rid of.

bill w

On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 9:55 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Cool!
>
>
>
> Work up to it, exercise, get rid of those pills, life is gooood?
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Sent:* Friday, November 13, 2020 6:39 AM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] put up with me
>
>
>
>
>
> >?Now if I can just walk 100 feet without feeling out of breath......
>
>
>
> bill w
>
>
>
> Lose the pills, exercise, work up to it.
>
>
>
> Fun aside regarding yachts: boat people often dream of owning a craft
> worthy of going out to sea.  Eventually their ship comes in, and they can
> afford their dream, buy a boat, go out, first thing a lot of people
> discover: how boring it is out there.  You can?t go anywhere, there?s
> nothing to do.  You can fish (snore) you can copulate with whoever joined
> you (which is cool (but you coulda done that at home (and after that?)))
> you can start fixing your next meal, and so on but? there isn?t much to do
> out at sea.
>
>
>
> Better alternative: cruise in a commercial rig.  You get to visit with the
> other touristas if you wish, play cards, or whatever you want to do, but
> it?s a bigger ship with more options, tiny fraction of the cost.
>
>
>
>
>
> >?Well then, how about funding a ride on a rocket to orbit?
>
>
>
> Eh, orbit schmorbit, lousy download speeds from  up there.  It isn?t even
> clear if the right term would still be download if one is downloading from
> orbit.  Life just doesn?t need that kind of data ambiguity.
>
>
>
> Best wishes for a speedy recovery Billw.  We are glad you are still with
> us.  You are living proof that life is good.
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201113/839a3eae/attachment.htm>

From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Nov 13 17:07:23 2020
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 17:07:23 +0000
Subject: [ExI] put up with me
In-Reply-To: <008901d6b9d8$863e1b60$92ba5220$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbyBYkuQrixobL4rwnCY0GH++YT18Hw6O3FaePHR1Vy8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <013301d6b949$d5590320$800b0960$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa6Ga4QXrpvEGeOM4M-vBD+WA_cgT2yadh1xRJ2m7FNuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgr6n97+NX3AR8QoVYrmewnyh0hKi743uikOi+kb+h-yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <008901d6b9d8$863e1b60$92ba5220$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjqQuWeE+LCnuv=vmW3xocWafFe=NAiHNWWrDa0qAN78Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 at 16:20, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> BillK, I have long been puzzled why this phenomenon works so much on some people and others little or none at all.  I have at least one neighbor who appears to be on the brink of insanity over politics, or is acting as if she is.  But I have scarcely been affected at all.  I don't understand the difference between the two.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


It depends on how strongly you self-identify with a political party,
sports team, celebrity, etc.
A famous UK football (soccer) manager once said:
"Some people think football is a matter of life and death.
I assure you, it's much more serious than that".
Bill Shankly
----------
This has since been re-quoted and applied to many different sports and
events.   :)



BillK


From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Nov 13 17:18:05 2020
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 09:18:05 -0800
Subject: [ExI] put up with me
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEa6Ga4QXrpvEGeOM4M-vBD+WA_cgT2yadh1xRJ2m7FNuA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbyBYkuQrixobL4rwnCY0GH++YT18Hw6O3FaePHR1Vy8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <013301d6b949$d5590320$800b0960$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa6Ga4QXrpvEGeOM4M-vBD+WA_cgT2yadh1xRJ2m7FNuA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSVq=_0OLj-U-tg8V4nguZp=uQt7kL=hB=rAxwfhFMNUw@mail.gmail.com>

Would a teleoperated "kick my own satellite out the door" suffice?  ;)

On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 6:41 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Well then, how about funding a ride on a rocket to orbit, where I can kick
> my own satellite out the door?  Then I can have my yacht.
>
> FYI - my cholesterol was 170 - optimal - LDL 104. Optimal.  But last week,
> in reviewing my stance on statins, I ran across a finding that statins
> helped in heart cases even though your cholesterol was normal.  Yesterday
> they ran it, and LDL was 49!! - total 104.
>
> I have no idea where we go from here.  We don't know, and maybe won't know
> what caused the heart attack, but I have avoided surgery, stents, etc.  Now
> if I can just walk 100 feet without feeling out of breath......
>
> Thanks for caring
>
> bill w
>
> On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 5:18 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Excellent news BillW!
>>
>>
>>
>> Eh, yacht schmacht: you can?t get decent internet out there.
>>
>>
>>
>> Our long-held notions on what would be really cool to have or do changed
>> a lot with the internet: a lotta cool vacation spots don?t get good
>> download speeds.
>>
>>
>>
>> spike
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
>> Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 12, 2020 3:04 PM
>> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>> *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
>> *Subject:* [ExI] put up with me
>>
>>
>>
>> It looks as though you may have to put up with me awhile longer.
>> Catheter test showed nothing:  no buildup of LDL stuff, hence no stent,
>> hence no open heart surgery and so on.  (also no reason why I had an attack)
>>
>>
>>
>> Actually with my low LDL, normal BP, and history of clean scans this is
>> exactly what I predicted. Even better I might be able to get off some of
>> these pills that make me dizzy and weak and short of breath.
>>
>>
>>
>> If you feel as good about this as I do, you can make a large contribution
>> to fund-my-yacht-billw.com.  You don't want me to leave this life
>> without having owned a yacht, do you?  Of course not.
>>
>>
>>
>> bill w
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201113/d64b7da7/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Nov 13 17:20:23 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 09:20:23 -0800
Subject: [ExI] put up with me
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEY5_Rg63AMpgupunin+ySmTyZGusGsBaqsNZG09kMrTPw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbyBYkuQrixobL4rwnCY0GH++YT18Hw6O3FaePHR1Vy8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <013301d6b949$d5590320$800b0960$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa6Ga4QXrpvEGeOM4M-vBD+WA_cgT2yadh1xRJ2m7FNuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <004b01d6b9d4$ad32c800$07985800$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEY5_Rg63AMpgupunin+ySmTyZGusGsBaqsNZG09kMrTPw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00e201d6b9e1$45d7a970$d186fc50$@rainier66.com>

 

 

>?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat

Subject: Re: [ExI] put up with me

 

I have been putting off the exercise?

 

The beta blocker may have to stay.  It lowers heart rate and that helps protect the heart - makes great sense to me.  It's the BP ones that I want to get rid of.

 

bill w

 

 

BillW, I had a colleague who suffered a massive heart attack at age 48.  It killed about half of his heart muscle.  They managed to clear the blockage and save his life but he had to have high dosage beta blockers after that.  He could return to work (and did) but he commented that the meds limited his heart rate to about 90 bpm.

 

His comment demonstrated his sense of humor didn?t die that day.  He could no longer do physically-demanding work.  DEAL! He could no long do vigorous exercise.  Heh, he never did vigorous exercise before, so didn?t even know what that was, so no worries.  He could no longer have sex.  That he could live with.  But he could no longer get pissed off.  That part he really missed.  That really pissed him off.

 

spike

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201113/3087278e/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 13 17:22:59 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 11:22:59 -0600
Subject: [ExI] put up with me
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSVq=_0OLj-U-tg8V4nguZp=uQt7kL=hB=rAxwfhFMNUw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbyBYkuQrixobL4rwnCY0GH++YT18Hw6O3FaePHR1Vy8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <013301d6b949$d5590320$800b0960$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa6Ga4QXrpvEGeOM4M-vBD+WA_cgT2yadh1xRJ2m7FNuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSVq=_0OLj-U-tg8V4nguZp=uQt7kL=hB=rAxwfhFMNUw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZvsgHNB=40V6vv-Ru-u0V3SX13UT_-Ni0K7NDt2bXdgA@mail.gmail.com>

I thought the Hughes company had satellite coverage that would be adequate
anywhere in the world.   bill w

On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 11:20 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Would a teleoperated "kick my own satellite out the door" suffice?  ;)
>
> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 6:41 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Well then, how about funding a ride on a rocket to orbit, where I can
>> kick my own satellite out the door?  Then I can have my yacht.
>>
>> FYI - my cholesterol was 170 - optimal - LDL 104. Optimal.  But last
>> week, in reviewing my stance on statins, I ran across a finding that
>> statins helped in heart cases even though your cholesterol was normal.
>> Yesterday they ran it, and LDL was 49!! - total 104.
>>
>> I have no idea where we go from here.  We don't know, and maybe won't
>> know what caused the heart attack, but I have avoided surgery, stents,
>> etc.  Now if I can just walk 100 feet without feeling out of breath......
>>
>> Thanks for caring
>>
>> bill w
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 5:18 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Excellent news BillW!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Eh, yacht schmacht: you can?t get decent internet out there.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Our long-held notions on what would be really cool to have or do changed
>>> a lot with the internet: a lotta cool vacation spots don?t get good
>>> download speeds.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> spike
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On
>>> Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 12, 2020 3:04 PM
>>> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>>> *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
>>> *Subject:* [ExI] put up with me
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It looks as though you may have to put up with me awhile longer.
>>> Catheter test showed nothing:  no buildup of LDL stuff, hence no stent,
>>> hence no open heart surgery and so on.  (also no reason why I had an attack)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Actually with my low LDL, normal BP, and history of clean scans this is
>>> exactly what I predicted. Even better I might be able to get off some of
>>> these pills that make me dizzy and weak and short of breath.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If you feel as good about this as I do, you can make a large
>>> contribution to fund-my-yacht-billw.com.  You don't want me to leave
>>> this life without having owned a yacht, do you?  Of course not.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> bill w
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201113/0ab8f8ce/attachment-0001.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 13 17:27:11 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 11:27:11 -0600
Subject: [ExI] zoom creates language weirdness
In-Reply-To: <006a01d6b9d5$d2ded5c0$789c8140$@rainier66.com>
References: <006a01d6b9d5$d2ded5c0$789c8140$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbMSGZEaA85dkg=BjkUn-tngNuSEDV_-O4PTCAHKPtmxQ@mail.gmail.com>

Spike, that is really great news for an old band boy (bass sax, Sousaphone,
trombone - changed because the drunks in the back row at the football
stadium kept trying to play my Sousaphone - so I changed to trombone - way
easier to carry).  Imagination will carry the day.   bill w

On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 10:02 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> Thanks to BillW on another list for the idea:
>
>
>
> The term banding together is redundant, but banding apart is an oxymoron.
> Rather it was an oxymoron until covid forced our schools into Zoom.  Now
> our HS band program is still with us, but in some ways better: the students
> cannot play in unison online because of latency.  So? the teacher is
> focusing on music theory, and we discovered she is really good at that.
>
>
>
> Now the students master their parts, record it with their home equipment
> (on 400 dollar ChromeBooks) with headphones playing the drum part so they
> can be synchronized, then the bandleader volume adjusts the parts to
> balance, puts it all together.
>
>
>
> Fun part: the pitches can be autotuned, so the product of their banding
> apart is better than they can play if they band together.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201113/5277282f/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 13 17:30:26 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 11:30:26 -0600
Subject: [ExI] put up with me
In-Reply-To: <00e201d6b9e1$45d7a970$d186fc50$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbyBYkuQrixobL4rwnCY0GH++YT18Hw6O3FaePHR1Vy8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <013301d6b949$d5590320$800b0960$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa6Ga4QXrpvEGeOM4M-vBD+WA_cgT2yadh1xRJ2m7FNuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <004b01d6b9d4$ad32c800$07985800$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEY5_Rg63AMpgupunin+ySmTyZGusGsBaqsNZG09kMrTPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e201d6b9e1$45d7a970$d186fc50$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbTGxV=mOT2rJpoP5guz6v37RtUKWpO-PYiOLUGvHs93g@mail.gmail.com>

No sex?  Because of beta blockers?  Hmm.  No change here.  No anger?
Meaning no physical way to express it.  We are our bodies.  b

On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 11:26 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> >?> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] put up with me
>
>
>
> I have been putting off the exercise?
>
>
>
> The beta blocker may have to stay.  It lowers heart rate and that helps
> protect the heart - makes great sense to me.  It's the BP ones that I want
> to get rid of.
>
>
>
> bill w
>
>
>
>
>
> BillW, I had a colleague who suffered a massive heart attack at age 48.
> It killed about half of his heart muscle.  They managed to clear the
> blockage and save his life but he had to have high dosage beta blockers
> after that.  He could return to work (and did) but he commented that the
> meds limited his heart rate to about 90 bpm.
>
>
>
> His comment demonstrated his sense of humor didn?t die that day.  He could
> no longer do physically-demanding work.  DEAL! He could no long do vigorous
> exercise.  Heh, he never did vigorous exercise before, so didn?t even know
> what that was, so no worries.  He could no longer have sex.  That he could
> live with.  But he could no longer get pissed off.  That part he really
> missed.  That really pissed him off.
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201113/8616efba/attachment.htm>

From bronto at pobox.com  Fri Nov 13 17:05:24 2020
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 09:05:24 -0800
Subject: [ExI] zoom creates language weirdness
In-Reply-To: <006a01d6b9d5$d2ded5c0$789c8140$@rainier66.com>
References: <006a01d6b9d5$d2ded5c0$789c8140$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <782b83f9-de8a-1ac0-b08f-ce83704dbc61@pobox.com>

On 2020-11-13 07:58, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:
> The term banding together is redundant, but banding apart is an oxymoron.

And yet ?Bande ? part? is a decent movie.

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org

Anarchists: banding apart to seize uncontrol!



From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Nov 13 17:42:21 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 09:42:21 -0800
Subject: [ExI] internet at sea: was RE:  put up with me
Message-ID: <011e01d6b9e4$572e1c10$058a5430$@rainier66.com>

 

 

> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat

Subject: Re: [ExI] put up with me

 

>?I thought the Hughes company had satellite coverage that would be adequate anywhere in the world.   bill w

 

Ja, but it is expensive and lousy performance compared to land-based fixed-position dish receivers.  Adequate sure.  Excellent, no, not even close.

 

If one pays for internet out at sea (many do) one finds right away how lousy it is, very frustrating.  One is reminded of how illogical it is to pay all that money to get away from it all, then pay still more money to just get away from it some.

 

spike

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201113/49e84e39/attachment.htm>

From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Nov 13 17:43:30 2020
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 09:43:30 -0800
Subject: [ExI] put up with me
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZvsgHNB=40V6vv-Ru-u0V3SX13UT_-Ni0K7NDt2bXdgA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbyBYkuQrixobL4rwnCY0GH++YT18Hw6O3FaePHR1Vy8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <013301d6b949$d5590320$800b0960$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa6Ga4QXrpvEGeOM4M-vBD+WA_cgT2yadh1xRJ2m7FNuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSVq=_0OLj-U-tg8V4nguZp=uQt7kL=hB=rAxwfhFMNUw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZvsgHNB=40V6vv-Ru-u0V3SX13UT_-Ni0K7NDt2bXdgA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRMNiiXYtE0UbmRDjpF4-MwunhK299BYwiHwa4HEdz08A@mail.gmail.com>

But that's not your own satellite.

On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 9:32 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I thought the Hughes company had satellite coverage that would be adequate
> anywhere in the world.   bill w
>
> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 11:20 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Would a teleoperated "kick my own satellite out the door" suffice?  ;)
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 6:41 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Well then, how about funding a ride on a rocket to orbit, where I can
>>> kick my own satellite out the door?  Then I can have my yacht.
>>>
>>> FYI - my cholesterol was 170 - optimal - LDL 104. Optimal.  But last
>>> week, in reviewing my stance on statins, I ran across a finding that
>>> statins helped in heart cases even though your cholesterol was normal.
>>> Yesterday they ran it, and LDL was 49!! - total 104.
>>>
>>> I have no idea where we go from here.  We don't know, and maybe won't
>>> know what caused the heart attack, but I have avoided surgery, stents,
>>> etc.  Now if I can just walk 100 feet without feeling out of breath......
>>>
>>> Thanks for caring
>>>
>>> bill w
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 5:18 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Excellent news BillW!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Eh, yacht schmacht: you can?t get decent internet out there.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Our long-held notions on what would be really cool to have or do
>>>> changed a lot with the internet: a lotta cool vacation spots don?t get good
>>>> download speeds.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> spike
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On
>>>> Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 12, 2020 3:04 PM
>>>> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>>>> *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
>>>> *Subject:* [ExI] put up with me
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It looks as though you may have to put up with me awhile longer.
>>>> Catheter test showed nothing:  no buildup of LDL stuff, hence no stent,
>>>> hence no open heart surgery and so on.  (also no reason why I had an attack)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Actually with my low LDL, normal BP, and history of clean scans this is
>>>> exactly what I predicted. Even better I might be able to get off some of
>>>> these pills that make me dizzy and weak and short of breath.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If you feel as good about this as I do, you can make a large
>>>> contribution to fund-my-yacht-billw.com.  You don't want me to leave
>>>> this life without having owned a yacht, do you?  Of course not.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> bill w
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201113/5cb11951/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Nov 13 17:59:23 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 09:59:23 -0800
Subject: [ExI] zoom creates language weirdness
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbMSGZEaA85dkg=BjkUn-tngNuSEDV_-O4PTCAHKPtmxQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006a01d6b9d5$d2ded5c0$789c8140$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbMSGZEaA85dkg=BjkUn-tngNuSEDV_-O4PTCAHKPtmxQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <015901d6b9e6$b878a7e0$2969f7a0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat

Subject: Re: [ExI] zoom creates language weirdness

 

>?Spike, that is really great news for an old band boy (bass sax, Sousaphone, trombone - changed because the drunks in the back row at the football stadium kept trying to play my Sousaphone - so I changed to trombone - way easier to carry).  Imagination will carry the day.   bill w

 

 

BillW, do extrapolate forward please.  We have heard high school choirs and bands.  We know the inherent limitations: they usually don?t sound very good.  The players haven?t achieved the requisite level of mastery on their instruments.

 

But if you have a group with each submitting an audio file which can be edited, and you have a person who knows what she is doing with music editing software, she can make a silk purse out of a sow?s ear.  The whole sounds waaay better than the sum of its parts.

 

This is particularly relevant to those of us who have been in bands and choirs.  We already know that any school group has a few good players.  The product doesn?t need to contain every voice and every contributing instrument: the lousy ones don?t need to be used.  The good ones can be replicated, modified and superimposed such that the same wav file sounds like two different good players, or arbitrarily many good players.

 

The lousy players can imagine their voice is in there, but that illusion is harmless.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201113/ddaaf469/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 13 18:36:08 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 12:36:08 -0600
Subject: [ExI] put up with me
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRMNiiXYtE0UbmRDjpF4-MwunhK299BYwiHwa4HEdz08A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbyBYkuQrixobL4rwnCY0GH++YT18Hw6O3FaePHR1Vy8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <013301d6b949$d5590320$800b0960$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa6Ga4QXrpvEGeOM4M-vBD+WA_cgT2yadh1xRJ2m7FNuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSVq=_0OLj-U-tg8V4nguZp=uQt7kL=hB=rAxwfhFMNUw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZvsgHNB=40V6vv-Ru-u0V3SX13UT_-Ni0K7NDt2bXdgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRMNiiXYtE0UbmRDjpF4-MwunhK299BYwiHwa4HEdz08A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYXhhzTkgLh9_eTKC2e1wWEU5o4XFkWC69DJ3UCy0iP=g@mail.gmail.com>

OK. Adrian, let's back up - if everyone will make me a gofundbillw project
I can buy Hughes or anything I want.  And all of you can get a ride on my
yacht with plenty of satellite coverage.  But I suspect that all of you
together are not enough to make me a billionaire.  Maybe enough to buy a
ride on a yacht (and, typically, get seasick).  bill w

On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 12:14 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> But that's not your own satellite.
>
> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 9:32 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> I thought the Hughes company had satellite coverage that would be
>> adequate anywhere in the world.   bill w
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 11:20 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Would a teleoperated "kick my own satellite out the door" suffice?  ;)
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 6:41 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Well then, how about funding a ride on a rocket to orbit, where I can
>>>> kick my own satellite out the door?  Then I can have my yacht.
>>>>
>>>> FYI - my cholesterol was 170 - optimal - LDL 104. Optimal.  But last
>>>> week, in reviewing my stance on statins, I ran across a finding that
>>>> statins helped in heart cases even though your cholesterol was normal.
>>>> Yesterday they ran it, and LDL was 49!! - total 104.
>>>>
>>>> I have no idea where we go from here.  We don't know, and maybe won't
>>>> know what caused the heart attack, but I have avoided surgery, stents,
>>>> etc.  Now if I can just walk 100 feet without feeling out of breath......
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for caring
>>>>
>>>> bill w
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 5:18 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Excellent news BillW!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Eh, yacht schmacht: you can?t get decent internet out there.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Our long-held notions on what would be really cool to have or do
>>>>> changed a lot with the internet: a lotta cool vacation spots don?t get good
>>>>> download speeds.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> spike
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On
>>>>> Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 12, 2020 3:04 PM
>>>>> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>>>>> *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
>>>>> *Subject:* [ExI] put up with me
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It looks as though you may have to put up with me awhile longer.
>>>>> Catheter test showed nothing:  no buildup of LDL stuff, hence no stent,
>>>>> hence no open heart surgery and so on.  (also no reason why I had an attack)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Actually with my low LDL, normal BP, and history of clean scans this
>>>>> is exactly what I predicted. Even better I might be able to get off some of
>>>>> these pills that make me dizzy and weak and short of breath.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If you feel as good about this as I do, you can make a large
>>>>> contribution to fund-my-yacht-billw.com.  You don't want me to leave
>>>>> this life without having owned a yacht, do you?  Of course not.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> bill w
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201113/12e10618/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 13 18:44:46 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 12:44:46 -0600
Subject: [ExI] zoom creates language weirdness
In-Reply-To: <015901d6b9e6$b878a7e0$2969f7a0$@rainier66.com>
References: <006a01d6b9d5$d2ded5c0$789c8140$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbMSGZEaA85dkg=BjkUn-tngNuSEDV_-O4PTCAHKPtmxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <015901d6b9e6$b878a7e0$2969f7a0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYn4fnuF7uBMF2-kp8VOxKLFx+uiAXCmHDu6qgeazUjig@mail.gmail.com>

I wasn't a lousy player, but I wasn't All State BAnd either.  My problem
all my life has been too many enthusiasms to get really good at anything.
I just love to get excited about something new:  (hello iPhone 12 Pro Max!
and Apple Watch).

Are programmers the musicians of the future?  Have you ever heard a Yamaha
Clavinova?  Its ability to duplicate sounds of all the instruments is just
amazing ( and mine is over ten years old).  I played a 7 foot Yamaha grand
piano once and cannot tell the difference between it and my Clavinova.  You
could make a recording like you describe using only it - no players at all;
just someone making keyboard entries.  I have not checked out what AI music
composers are doing lately, but I read that some of them can write music
experts cannot tell from Bach.

But there is nothing like playing an instrument, even if you cannot play it
at world class levels.  bill w

On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 12:20 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] zoom creates language weirdness
>
>
>
> >?Spike, that is really great news for an old band boy (bass sax,
> Sousaphone, trombone - changed because the drunks in the back row at the
> football stadium kept trying to play my Sousaphone - so I changed to
> trombone - way easier to carry).  Imagination will carry the day.   bill w
>
>
>
>
>
> BillW, do extrapolate forward please.  We have heard high school choirs
> and bands.  We know the inherent limitations: they usually don?t sound very
> good.  The players haven?t achieved the requisite level of mastery on their
> instruments.
>
>
>
> But if you have a group with each submitting an audio file which can be
> edited, and you have a person who knows what she is doing with music
> editing software, she can make a silk purse out of a sow?s ear.  The whole
> sounds waaay better than the sum of its parts.
>
>
>
> This is particularly relevant to those of us who have been in bands and
> choirs.  We already know that any school group has a few good players.  The
> product doesn?t need to contain every voice and every contributing
> instrument: the lousy ones don?t need to be used.  The good ones can be
> replicated, modified and superimposed such that the same wav file sounds
> like two different good players, or arbitrarily many good players.
>
>
>
> The lousy players can imagine their voice is in there, but that illusion
> is harmless.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201113/76db1b57/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 13 18:46:09 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 12:46:09 -0600
Subject: [ExI] internet at sea: was RE: put up with me
In-Reply-To: <011e01d6b9e4$572e1c10$058a5430$@rainier66.com>
References: <011e01d6b9e4$572e1c10$058a5430$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZh0Ddp2Y=rd13ZHuoNVjyHodgfJzi7_G+H-QA6KzvEkg@mail.gmail.com>

Name escapes me, but the guy who played Perry Mason bought an island.  I
wonder what he did there?  bill w

On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 12:05 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] put up with me
>
>
>
> >?I thought the Hughes company had satellite coverage that would be
> adequate anywhere in the world.   bill w
>
>
>
> Ja, but it is expensive and lousy performance compared to land-based
> fixed-position dish receivers.  Adequate sure.  Excellent, no, not even
> close.
>
>
>
> If one pays for internet out at sea (many do) one finds right away how
> lousy it is, very frustrating.  One is reminded of how illogical it is to
> pay all that money to get away from it all, then pay still more money to
> just get away from it some.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201113/859b29c0/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Nov 13 18:54:43 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 10:54:43 -0800
Subject: [ExI] sql humor
Message-ID: <005701d6b9ee$7383a290$5a8ae7b0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

 

 

 



 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201113/a040ce96/attachment-0001.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image001.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 49193 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201113/a040ce96/attachment-0001.jpg>

From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Nov 13 18:59:09 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 10:59:09 -0800
Subject: [ExI] zoom creates language weirdness
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYn4fnuF7uBMF2-kp8VOxKLFx+uiAXCmHDu6qgeazUjig@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006a01d6b9d5$d2ded5c0$789c8140$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbMSGZEaA85dkg=BjkUn-tngNuSEDV_-O4PTCAHKPtmxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <015901d6b9e6$b878a7e0$2969f7a0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYn4fnuF7uBMF2-kp8VOxKLFx+uiAXCmHDu6qgeazUjig@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006601d6b9ef$121b4e30$3651ea90$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 10:45 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] zoom creates language weirdness

 

>?I wasn't a lousy player, but I wasn't All State BAnd either?

 

I made All State.  What an experience that was.  Went from being the best player in the band to the worst.  Very cool.

 

?

 

>?But there is nothing like playing an instrument, even if you cannot play it at world class levels.  bill w

 

Agree.  Playing an instrument trains the mind.

 

spike

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201113/e1e8aed4/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Nov 13 19:03:22 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 11:03:22 -0800
Subject: [ExI] internet at sea: was RE: put up with me
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZh0Ddp2Y=rd13ZHuoNVjyHodgfJzi7_G+H-QA6KzvEkg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <011e01d6b9e4$572e1c10$058a5430$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZh0Ddp2Y=rd13ZHuoNVjyHodgfJzi7_G+H-QA6KzvEkg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006d01d6b9ef$a8d14e60$fa73eb20$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] internet at sea: was RE: put up with me

 

Name escapes me, but the guy who played Perry Mason?

 

Raymond Burr.

 

>?bought an island.  I wonder what he did there?  bill w

 

What plays there stays there.

 

Try to imagine Perry Mason, who never cracked a smile on the show the entire time, cutting up and having a hot tub party with two or three nekkid drunken trollops.  The mind boggles.

 

spike 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201113/5194f1ce/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 13 19:19:14 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 13:19:14 -0600
Subject: [ExI] zoom creates language weirdness
In-Reply-To: <006601d6b9ef$121b4e30$3651ea90$@rainier66.com>
References: <006a01d6b9d5$d2ded5c0$789c8140$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbMSGZEaA85dkg=BjkUn-tngNuSEDV_-O4PTCAHKPtmxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <015901d6b9e6$b878a7e0$2969f7a0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYn4fnuF7uBMF2-kp8VOxKLFx+uiAXCmHDu6qgeazUjig@mail.gmail.com>
 <006601d6b9ef$121b4e30$3651ea90$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZJ60ndghx8DF6MM46uoTo==u2LFySOLTDugriXDQ11Lw@mail.gmail.com>

Congratulations!  I sat first chair second and had no drive to be any
better.  I just traded my big Sousaphone for reasons mentioned earlier.
The trombone is a very limited instrument. It isn't used much in an
orchestra , as I found out later when I joined a youth orchestra at the
college, and I just wanted to be in the band.  No long term ideas.  I did
have them for voice - wanted to be an opera star, took voice lessons at the
college and went to college on a voice scholarship.  Many studies on
learning music and improving your overall brain functions.  Math and music
are great buddies in doing that.  bill w

On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 1:12 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Sent:* Friday, November 13, 2020 10:45 AM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] zoom creates language weirdness
>
>
>
> >?I wasn't a lousy player, but I wasn't All State BAnd either?
>
>
>
> I made All State.  What an experience that was.  Went from being the best
> player in the band to the worst.  Very cool.
>
>
>
> ?
>
>
>
> >?But there is nothing like playing an instrument, even if you cannot
> play it at world class levels.  bill w
>
>
>
> Agree.  Playing an instrument trains the mind.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201113/66ed8ff1/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 13 19:21:39 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 13:21:39 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: year round school
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZNqG+ZOHO9XOP8SjDSSkAUo6BC7Fvmb47rQKfgnp35wQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZNqG+ZOHO9XOP8SjDSSkAUo6BC7Fvmb47rQKfgnp35wQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEb5hZ=TtWpH=HsDc9yzRtbzYBncbWUwUQehxBBO50DSeg@mail.gmail.com>

my letter to a legislator, head of the Education committee - your
thoughts?   bill w

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 10:48 AM
Subject: year round school
To: <ddebar at senate.ms.gov>


Dear Sir,

I have a Ph. D. in Experimental and Clinical Psychology and taught for over
35 years.  The idea of a 'summer slump' comes from studies on memory that
do indeed show that students will do more poorly or even fail on tests that
they took just a few weeks or months ago.  Even at Harvard.  But, they were
not given the chance to study for them again - they had to take them cold.

That absolutely does NOT mean that those memories are gone forever.  No.
Memories that last more than a day or two are with us permanently, though
the longer we live the harder it is to retrieve them, mainly because of
competition from later memories.  There are some good reasons to have year
long schooling, but the 'summer slump' is not one of them.

The very best thing the Legislature could do to help students is to start
school later in the day.  At that age they are mostly night owls and wake
up slowly, so that learning at 8 o'clock is difficult.  They are there,
they are awake, but their brains are still fuzzy.  There are many studies
done by physicians and psychologists that validate those conclusions.

I do not think it matters with year long schooling how long the breaks
are.  I would be in favor of adding hours of school to the ones we have now.

Just on a tangent:  requiring Algebra is just wrong.  Fewer than 5% of the
high school graduates ever use it.  I am in a chat group with a bunch of
engineers and they concur - no value to students unless they are going into
science, technology, engineering, or math (STEM), and those students will
certainly take algebra, precalculus, and calculus if offered, along with
geometry, solid geometry, trigonometry.  Requiring algebra keeps many
students from graduating.  A waste of minds, in my opinion.  And a lifelong
hindrance to job prospects.  Of course it differentially impacts minority
students.

Sincerely,

William F. Wallace, Ph. D. University of Alabama, Tuscaloosa
Brandon MS
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201113/4c6c5444/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 13 19:22:30 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 13:22:30 -0600
Subject: [ExI] internet at sea: was RE: put up with me
In-Reply-To: <006d01d6b9ef$a8d14e60$fa73eb20$@rainier66.com>
References: <011e01d6b9e4$572e1c10$058a5430$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZh0Ddp2Y=rd13ZHuoNVjyHodgfJzi7_G+H-QA6KzvEkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <006d01d6b9ef$a8d14e60$fa73eb20$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbxXUB3PpKr0LRYkhTUtNMCDKdZZoxEkXvAkpz1dzp=hQ@mail.gmail.com>

I think that when he played Ironside they let him open up a bit.  I do
remember his smiling.  bill w

On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 1:20 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] internet at sea: was RE: put up with me
>
>
>
> Name escapes me, but the guy who played Perry Mason?
>
>
>
> Raymond Burr.
>
>
>
> >?bought an island.  I wonder what he did there?  bill w
>
>
>
> What plays there stays there.
>
>
>
> Try to imagine Perry Mason, who never cracked a smile on the show the
> entire time, cutting up and having a hot tub party with two or three nekkid
> drunken trollops.  The mind boggles.
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201113/fc534735/attachment.htm>

From danust2012 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 13 21:08:58 2020
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 21:08:58 +0000
Subject: [ExI] sql humor
In-Reply-To: <005701d6b9ee$7383a290$5a8ae7b0$@rainier66.com>
References: <005701d6b9ee$7383a290$5a8ae7b0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CACB7g25-ddpY1n+rjsguUdkUrjhzJgWeT=px3w6yDt8AgYLSDw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 6:59 PM spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

When I dropped tables, I would always say, 'See you in hell, database!'

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst

From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Nov 13 22:34:43 2020
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 14:34:43 -0800
Subject: [ExI] put up with me
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYXhhzTkgLh9_eTKC2e1wWEU5o4XFkWC69DJ3UCy0iP=g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbyBYkuQrixobL4rwnCY0GH++YT18Hw6O3FaePHR1Vy8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <013301d6b949$d5590320$800b0960$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa6Ga4QXrpvEGeOM4M-vBD+WA_cgT2yadh1xRJ2m7FNuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSVq=_0OLj-U-tg8V4nguZp=uQt7kL=hB=rAxwfhFMNUw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZvsgHNB=40V6vv-Ru-u0V3SX13UT_-Ni0K7NDt2bXdgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRMNiiXYtE0UbmRDjpF4-MwunhK299BYwiHwa4HEdz08A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYXhhzTkgLh9_eTKC2e1wWEU5o4XFkWC69DJ3UCy0iP=g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRR_fGG74LQnqRH8t5WB13YZgfVWA=tYypJK+FHB=YfwQ@mail.gmail.com>

What if I told you there were plans afoot so anyone could have their own
satellite, complete with a dedicated launch for just that one satellite,
for mere hundreds of thousands of dollars?

Because there are.

On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 10:37 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> OK. Adrian, let's back up - if everyone will make me a gofundbillw project
> I can buy Hughes or anything I want.  And all of you can get a ride on my
> yacht with plenty of satellite coverage.  But I suspect that all of you
> together are not enough to make me a billionaire.  Maybe enough to buy a
> ride on a yacht (and, typically, get seasick).  bill w
>
> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 12:14 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> But that's not your own satellite.
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 9:32 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I thought the Hughes company had satellite coverage that would be
>>> adequate anywhere in the world.   bill w
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 11:20 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Would a teleoperated "kick my own satellite out the door" suffice?  ;)
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 6:41 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Well then, how about funding a ride on a rocket to orbit, where I can
>>>>> kick my own satellite out the door?  Then I can have my yacht.
>>>>>
>>>>> FYI - my cholesterol was 170 - optimal - LDL 104. Optimal.  But last
>>>>> week, in reviewing my stance on statins, I ran across a finding that
>>>>> statins helped in heart cases even though your cholesterol was normal.
>>>>> Yesterday they ran it, and LDL was 49!! - total 104.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have no idea where we go from here.  We don't know, and maybe won't
>>>>> know what caused the heart attack, but I have avoided surgery, stents,
>>>>> etc.  Now if I can just walk 100 feet without feeling out of breath......
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for caring
>>>>>
>>>>> bill w
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 5:18 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Excellent news BillW!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Eh, yacht schmacht: you can?t get decent internet out there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Our long-held notions on what would be really cool to have or do
>>>>>> changed a lot with the internet: a lotta cool vacation spots don?t get good
>>>>>> download speeds.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> spike
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On
>>>>>> Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 12, 2020 3:04 PM
>>>>>> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>>>>>> *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
>>>>>> *Subject:* [ExI] put up with me
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It looks as though you may have to put up with me awhile longer.
>>>>>> Catheter test showed nothing:  no buildup of LDL stuff, hence no stent,
>>>>>> hence no open heart surgery and so on.  (also no reason why I had an attack)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Actually with my low LDL, normal BP, and history of clean scans this
>>>>>> is exactly what I predicted. Even better I might be able to get off some of
>>>>>> these pills that make me dizzy and weak and short of breath.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you feel as good about this as I do, you can make a large
>>>>>> contribution to fund-my-yacht-billw.com.  You don't want me to leave
>>>>>> this life without having owned a yacht, do you?  Of course not.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> bill w
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201113/66e24d34/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 13 22:48:19 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 16:48:19 -0600
Subject: [ExI] put up with me
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRR_fGG74LQnqRH8t5WB13YZgfVWA=tYypJK+FHB=YfwQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbyBYkuQrixobL4rwnCY0GH++YT18Hw6O3FaePHR1Vy8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <013301d6b949$d5590320$800b0960$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa6Ga4QXrpvEGeOM4M-vBD+WA_cgT2yadh1xRJ2m7FNuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSVq=_0OLj-U-tg8V4nguZp=uQt7kL=hB=rAxwfhFMNUw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZvsgHNB=40V6vv-Ru-u0V3SX13UT_-Ni0K7NDt2bXdgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRMNiiXYtE0UbmRDjpF4-MwunhK299BYwiHwa4HEdz08A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYXhhzTkgLh9_eTKC2e1wWEU5o4XFkWC69DJ3UCy0iP=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRR_fGG74LQnqRH8t5WB13YZgfVWA=tYypJK+FHB=YfwQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY9920TP0zmx+CDuUsH_Sj+yTo+e--MTVOOKfyyxKdFXQ@mail.gmail.com>

Is that part of what Musk is up to?   bill w

On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 4:37 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> What if I told you there were plans afoot so anyone could have their own
> satellite, complete with a dedicated launch for just that one satellite,
> for mere hundreds of thousands of dollars?
>
> Because there are.
>
> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 10:37 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> OK. Adrian, let's back up - if everyone will make me a gofundbillw
>> project I can buy Hughes or anything I want.  And all of you can get a ride
>> on my yacht with plenty of satellite coverage.  But I suspect that all of
>> you together are not enough to make me a billionaire.  Maybe enough to buy
>> a ride on a yacht (and, typically, get seasick).  bill w
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 12:14 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> But that's not your own satellite.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 9:32 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I thought the Hughes company had satellite coverage that would be
>>>> adequate anywhere in the world.   bill w
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 11:20 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Would a teleoperated "kick my own satellite out the door" suffice?  ;)
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 6:41 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>>>>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Well then, how about funding a ride on a rocket to orbit, where I can
>>>>>> kick my own satellite out the door?  Then I can have my yacht.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FYI - my cholesterol was 170 - optimal - LDL 104. Optimal.  But last
>>>>>> week, in reviewing my stance on statins, I ran across a finding that
>>>>>> statins helped in heart cases even though your cholesterol was normal.
>>>>>> Yesterday they ran it, and LDL was 49!! - total 104.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have no idea where we go from here.  We don't know, and maybe won't
>>>>>> know what caused the heart attack, but I have avoided surgery, stents,
>>>>>> etc.  Now if I can just walk 100 feet without feeling out of breath......
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for caring
>>>>>>
>>>>>> bill w
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 5:18 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Excellent news BillW!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Eh, yacht schmacht: you can?t get decent internet out there.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Our long-held notions on what would be really cool to have or do
>>>>>>> changed a lot with the internet: a lotta cool vacation spots don?t get good
>>>>>>> download speeds.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> spike
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On
>>>>>>> Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>>>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 12, 2020 3:04 PM
>>>>>>> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>>>>>>> *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> *Subject:* [ExI] put up with me
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It looks as though you may have to put up with me awhile longer.
>>>>>>> Catheter test showed nothing:  no buildup of LDL stuff, hence no stent,
>>>>>>> hence no open heart surgery and so on.  (also no reason why I had an attack)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Actually with my low LDL, normal BP, and history of clean scans this
>>>>>>> is exactly what I predicted. Even better I might be able to get off some of
>>>>>>> these pills that make me dizzy and weak and short of breath.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you feel as good about this as I do, you can make a large
>>>>>>> contribution to fund-my-yacht-billw.com.  You don't want me to
>>>>>>> leave this life without having owned a yacht, do you?  Of course not.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> bill w
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201113/9b7868cf/attachment.htm>

From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Nov 13 22:54:20 2020
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 14:54:20 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: year round school
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEb5hZ=TtWpH=HsDc9yzRtbzYBncbWUwUQehxBBO50DSeg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZNqG+ZOHO9XOP8SjDSSkAUo6BC7Fvmb47rQKfgnp35wQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEb5hZ=TtWpH=HsDc9yzRtbzYBncbWUwUQehxBBO50DSeg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNR0b6xu0YyL5ZaRftrzq8Fh5SqdSEQgg-duJnyE5maG2Q@mail.gmail.com>

I disagree about the lack of value of algebra.

If you're going into business, or any financial field, you'll need
algebra.  (Then again, much of modern finance is basically a subset of
computer science and thus STEM.)

Fashion, or any clothing field?  If you need X amount of fabric for 3
dresses, how much will you need to make just 2?  And many other surface
area related questions.

Civic activism?  If you can help 1 person every X hours, or Y people every
8 hours, which is a better use of your time?

Sports?  Aside from the intuitive calculations done on the field mid-game
("at what angle do I send the ball so it will land where I want it to"),
these days there seems to be no end to sports-related statistical analyses.

Law?  News flash: when they call it the legal "code", that's a very similar
sort to software "code".  It takes the same sort of thinking to find the
loopholes.

And that's not getting into making household budgets, and other such
algebra-enabled tasks that most adults are expected to be capable of
regardless of employment.

On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 11:32 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> my letter to a legislator, head of the Education committee - your
> thoughts?   bill w
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> Date: Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 10:48 AM
> Subject: year round school
> To: <ddebar at senate.ms.gov>
>
>
> Dear Sir,
>
> I have a Ph. D. in Experimental and Clinical Psychology and taught for
> over 35 years.  The idea of a 'summer slump' comes from studies on memory
> that do indeed show that students will do more poorly or even fail on tests
> that they took just a few weeks or months ago.  Even at Harvard.  But, they
> were not given the chance to study for them again - they had to take them
> cold.
>
> That absolutely does NOT mean that those memories are gone forever.  No.
> Memories that last more than a day or two are with us permanently, though
> the longer we live the harder it is to retrieve them, mainly because of
> competition from later memories.  There are some good reasons to have year
> long schooling, but the 'summer slump' is not one of them.
>
> The very best thing the Legislature could do to help students is to start
> school later in the day.  At that age they are mostly night owls and wake
> up slowly, so that learning at 8 o'clock is difficult.  They are there,
> they are awake, but their brains are still fuzzy.  There are many studies
> done by physicians and psychologists that validate those conclusions.
>
> I do not think it matters with year long schooling how long the breaks
> are.  I would be in favor of adding hours of school to the ones we have now.
>
> Just on a tangent:  requiring Algebra is just wrong.  Fewer than 5% of the
> high school graduates ever use it.  I am in a chat group with a bunch of
> engineers and they concur - no value to students unless they are going into
> science, technology, engineering, or math (STEM), and those students will
> certainly take algebra, precalculus, and calculus if offered, along with
> geometry, solid geometry, trigonometry.  Requiring algebra keeps many
> students from graduating.  A waste of minds, in my opinion.  And a lifelong
> hindrance to job prospects.  Of course it differentially impacts minority
> students.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> William F. Wallace, Ph. D. University of Alabama, Tuscaloosa
> Brandon MS
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201113/1eca7ed8/attachment-0001.htm>

From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Nov 13 22:55:06 2020
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 14:55:06 -0800
Subject: [ExI] put up with me
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEY9920TP0zmx+CDuUsH_Sj+yTo+e--MTVOOKfyyxKdFXQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbyBYkuQrixobL4rwnCY0GH++YT18Hw6O3FaePHR1Vy8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <013301d6b949$d5590320$800b0960$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa6Ga4QXrpvEGeOM4M-vBD+WA_cgT2yadh1xRJ2m7FNuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSVq=_0OLj-U-tg8V4nguZp=uQt7kL=hB=rAxwfhFMNUw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZvsgHNB=40V6vv-Ru-u0V3SX13UT_-Ni0K7NDt2bXdgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRMNiiXYtE0UbmRDjpF4-MwunhK299BYwiHwa4HEdz08A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYXhhzTkgLh9_eTKC2e1wWEU5o4XFkWC69DJ3UCy0iP=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRR_fGG74LQnqRH8t5WB13YZgfVWA=tYypJK+FHB=YfwQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEY9920TP0zmx+CDuUsH_Sj+yTo+e--MTVOOKfyyxKdFXQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNT-nx-ro02WkF0cvVASvJyiMQwm=pLmejcQnSS-aoRZCw@mail.gmail.com>

No (at least, not including the dedicated launch).  But it is part of what
I am up to.

I have gone on about CubeCab on this list, have I not?

On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 2:51 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Is that part of what Musk is up to?   bill w
>
> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 4:37 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> What if I told you there were plans afoot so anyone could have their own
>> satellite, complete with a dedicated launch for just that one satellite,
>> for mere hundreds of thousands of dollars?
>>
>> Because there are.
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 10:37 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> OK. Adrian, let's back up - if everyone will make me a gofundbillw
>>> project I can buy Hughes or anything I want.  And all of you can get a ride
>>> on my yacht with plenty of satellite coverage.  But I suspect that all of
>>> you together are not enough to make me a billionaire.  Maybe enough to buy
>>> a ride on a yacht (and, typically, get seasick).  bill w
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 12:14 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> But that's not your own satellite.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 9:32 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I thought the Hughes company had satellite coverage that would be
>>>>> adequate anywhere in the world.   bill w
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 11:20 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Would a teleoperated "kick my own satellite out the door" suffice?  ;)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 6:41 AM William Flynn Wallace via
>>>>>> extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well then, how about funding a ride on a rocket to orbit, where I
>>>>>>> can kick my own satellite out the door?  Then I can have my yacht.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> FYI - my cholesterol was 170 - optimal - LDL 104. Optimal.  But last
>>>>>>> week, in reviewing my stance on statins, I ran across a finding that
>>>>>>> statins helped in heart cases even though your cholesterol was normal.
>>>>>>> Yesterday they ran it, and LDL was 49!! - total 104.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have no idea where we go from here.  We don't know, and maybe
>>>>>>> won't know what caused the heart attack, but I have avoided surgery,
>>>>>>> stents, etc.  Now if I can just walk 100 feet without feeling out of
>>>>>>> breath......
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for caring
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> bill w
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 5:18 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Excellent news BillW!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Eh, yacht schmacht: you can?t get decent internet out there.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Our long-held notions on what would be really cool to have or do
>>>>>>>> changed a lot with the internet: a lotta cool vacation spots don?t get good
>>>>>>>> download speeds.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> spike
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On
>>>>>>>> Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 12, 2020 3:04 PM
>>>>>>>> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>>>>>>>> *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> *Subject:* [ExI] put up with me
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It looks as though you may have to put up with me awhile longer.
>>>>>>>> Catheter test showed nothing:  no buildup of LDL stuff, hence no stent,
>>>>>>>> hence no open heart surgery and so on.  (also no reason why I had an attack)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Actually with my low LDL, normal BP, and history of clean scans
>>>>>>>> this is exactly what I predicted. Even better I might be able to get off
>>>>>>>> some of these pills that make me dizzy and weak and short of breath.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you feel as good about this as I do, you can make a large
>>>>>>>> contribution to fund-my-yacht-billw.com.  You don't want me to
>>>>>>>> leave this life without having owned a yacht, do you?  Of course not.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> bill w
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201113/ea6b2882/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 14 00:15:22 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 18:15:22 -0600
Subject: [ExI] put up with me
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNT-nx-ro02WkF0cvVASvJyiMQwm=pLmejcQnSS-aoRZCw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbyBYkuQrixobL4rwnCY0GH++YT18Hw6O3FaePHR1Vy8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <013301d6b949$d5590320$800b0960$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa6Ga4QXrpvEGeOM4M-vBD+WA_cgT2yadh1xRJ2m7FNuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSVq=_0OLj-U-tg8V4nguZp=uQt7kL=hB=rAxwfhFMNUw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZvsgHNB=40V6vv-Ru-u0V3SX13UT_-Ni0K7NDt2bXdgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRMNiiXYtE0UbmRDjpF4-MwunhK299BYwiHwa4HEdz08A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYXhhzTkgLh9_eTKC2e1wWEU5o4XFkWC69DJ3UCy0iP=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRR_fGG74LQnqRH8t5WB13YZgfVWA=tYypJK+FHB=YfwQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEY9920TP0zmx+CDuUsH_Sj+yTo+e--MTVOOKfyyxKdFXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT-nx-ro02WkF0cvVASvJyiMQwm=pLmejcQnSS-aoRZCw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaGx353zs5bBN=Bk5OCKzd8cB3BSDPX77c-GKbitGD2_A@mail.gmail.com>

Adrian, there are some topics you guys discuss that do not pique my
interest, and some of them are beyond my ability to understand.  Must have
been one of those.  For example, I have not done anything but a quick scan
on living on the Moon.  Or black holes.

Quick (I hope) question;  do you have to get permission from national and
international agencies to do what you do re space?  Is there anything,
anyone stopping someone from taking a deserted island and launching
whatever they want to?
bill w

bill w

On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 5:08 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> No (at least, not including the dedicated launch).  But it is part of what
> I am up to.
>
> I have gone on about CubeCab on this list, have I not?
>
> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 2:51 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Is that part of what Musk is up to?   bill w
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 4:37 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> What if I told you there were plans afoot so anyone could have their own
>>> satellite, complete with a dedicated launch for just that one satellite,
>>> for mere hundreds of thousands of dollars?
>>>
>>> Because there are.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 10:37 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> OK. Adrian, let's back up - if everyone will make me a gofundbillw
>>>> project I can buy Hughes or anything I want.  And all of you can get a ride
>>>> on my yacht with plenty of satellite coverage.  But I suspect that all of
>>>> you together are not enough to make me a billionaire.  Maybe enough to buy
>>>> a ride on a yacht (and, typically, get seasick).  bill w
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 12:14 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> But that's not your own satellite.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 9:32 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>>>>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I thought the Hughes company had satellite coverage that would be
>>>>>> adequate anywhere in the world.   bill w
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 11:20 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Would a teleoperated "kick my own satellite out the door" suffice?
>>>>>>> ;)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 6:41 AM William Flynn Wallace via
>>>>>>> extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well then, how about funding a ride on a rocket to orbit, where I
>>>>>>>> can kick my own satellite out the door?  Then I can have my yacht.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> FYI - my cholesterol was 170 - optimal - LDL 104. Optimal.  But
>>>>>>>> last week, in reviewing my stance on statins, I ran across a finding that
>>>>>>>> statins helped in heart cases even though your cholesterol was normal.
>>>>>>>> Yesterday they ran it, and LDL was 49!! - total 104.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have no idea where we go from here.  We don't know, and maybe
>>>>>>>> won't know what caused the heart attack, but I have avoided surgery,
>>>>>>>> stents, etc.  Now if I can just walk 100 feet without feeling out of
>>>>>>>> breath......
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks for caring
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> bill w
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 5:18 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
>>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Excellent news BillW!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Eh, yacht schmacht: you can?t get decent internet out there.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Our long-held notions on what would be really cool to have or do
>>>>>>>>> changed a lot with the internet: a lotta cool vacation spots don?t get good
>>>>>>>>> download speeds.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> spike
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On
>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 12, 2020 3:04 PM
>>>>>>>>> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>>>>>>>>> *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* [ExI] put up with me
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It looks as though you may have to put up with me awhile longer.
>>>>>>>>> Catheter test showed nothing:  no buildup of LDL stuff, hence no stent,
>>>>>>>>> hence no open heart surgery and so on.  (also no reason why I had an attack)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Actually with my low LDL, normal BP, and history of clean scans
>>>>>>>>> this is exactly what I predicted. Even better I might be able to get off
>>>>>>>>> some of these pills that make me dizzy and weak and short of breath.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you feel as good about this as I do, you can make a large
>>>>>>>>> contribution to fund-my-yacht-billw.com.  You don't want me to
>>>>>>>>> leave this life without having owned a yacht, do you?  Of course not.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> bill w
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201113/aa1f6553/attachment.htm>

From bronto at pobox.com  Sat Nov 14 00:30:36 2020
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 16:30:36 -0800
Subject: [ExI] put up with me
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaGx353zs5bBN=Bk5OCKzd8cB3BSDPX77c-GKbitGD2_A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbyBYkuQrixobL4rwnCY0GH++YT18Hw6O3FaePHR1Vy8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <013301d6b949$d5590320$800b0960$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa6Ga4QXrpvEGeOM4M-vBD+WA_cgT2yadh1xRJ2m7FNuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSVq=_0OLj-U-tg8V4nguZp=uQt7kL=hB=rAxwfhFMNUw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZvsgHNB=40V6vv-Ru-u0V3SX13UT_-Ni0K7NDt2bXdgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRMNiiXYtE0UbmRDjpF4-MwunhK299BYwiHwa4HEdz08A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYXhhzTkgLh9_eTKC2e1wWEU5o4XFkWC69DJ3UCy0iP=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRR_fGG74LQnqRH8t5WB13YZgfVWA=tYypJK+FHB=YfwQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEY9920TP0zmx+CDuUsH_Sj+yTo+e--MTVOOKfyyxKdFXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT-nx-ro02WkF0cvVASvJyiMQwm=pLmejcQnSS-aoRZCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaGx353zs5bBN=Bk5OCKzd8cB3BSDPX77c-GKbitGD2_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8743e676-127a-1f4d-1651-8e0696c169eb@pobox.com>

On 2020-11-13 16:15, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:
> Quick (I hope) question;? do you have to get permission from national 
> and international agencies to do what you do re space?? Is there 
> anything, anyone stopping someone from taking a deserted island and 
> launching whatever they want to?

Every speck of land north of 60?S is claimed by some state or other (if 
not two or three).

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org



From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Nov 14 00:35:56 2020
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 16:35:56 -0800
Subject: [ExI] put up with me
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaGx353zs5bBN=Bk5OCKzd8cB3BSDPX77c-GKbitGD2_A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbyBYkuQrixobL4rwnCY0GH++YT18Hw6O3FaePHR1Vy8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <013301d6b949$d5590320$800b0960$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa6Ga4QXrpvEGeOM4M-vBD+WA_cgT2yadh1xRJ2m7FNuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSVq=_0OLj-U-tg8V4nguZp=uQt7kL=hB=rAxwfhFMNUw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZvsgHNB=40V6vv-Ru-u0V3SX13UT_-Ni0K7NDt2bXdgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRMNiiXYtE0UbmRDjpF4-MwunhK299BYwiHwa4HEdz08A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYXhhzTkgLh9_eTKC2e1wWEU5o4XFkWC69DJ3UCy0iP=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRR_fGG74LQnqRH8t5WB13YZgfVWA=tYypJK+FHB=YfwQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEY9920TP0zmx+CDuUsH_Sj+yTo+e--MTVOOKfyyxKdFXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT-nx-ro02WkF0cvVASvJyiMQwm=pLmejcQnSS-aoRZCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaGx353zs5bBN=Bk5OCKzd8cB3BSDPX77c-GKbitGD2_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSw_+6qCr1-v1iMWfmzqt2VohGStcJ1VqE1Sz50caAHkg@mail.gmail.com>

For launches from the US, you have to get licensing from the FAA (and
possibly others depending on what you're launching, e.g. if you're
launching a comms sat for a US operator, the FCC has a say too).

To my knowledge, there are no land areas on Earth that are not claimed by
some national body, whose permission you would need to use it as a launch
base.  In other words, there effectively aren't any deserted islands, if
"deserted" means "not under some nation's jurisdiction".

For any launch from international waters, whatever you used to get the
rocket out there is a vessel which, by international law, is registered to
some country - by default, whatever country it was made in (or where the
things that made it were made in, et cetera, if you try to dodge that way)
- whether you want it to be or not.  That country is what you have to get
permission from to launch.

That's the legal answer.  The practical answer: by the time you can get the
resources together to seriously attempt a launch from a deserted island,
you will of your own accord pull back to launching from some more
accessible site.

On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 4:17 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Adrian, there are some topics you guys discuss that do not pique my
> interest, and some of them are beyond my ability to understand.  Must have
> been one of those.  For example, I have not done anything but a quick scan
> on living on the Moon.  Or black holes.
>
> Quick (I hope) question;  do you have to get permission from national and
> international agencies to do what you do re space?  Is there anything,
> anyone stopping someone from taking a deserted island and launching
> whatever they want to?
> bill w
>
> bill w
>
> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 5:08 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> No (at least, not including the dedicated launch).  But it is part of
>> what I am up to.
>>
>> I have gone on about CubeCab on this list, have I not?
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 2:51 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Is that part of what Musk is up to?   bill w
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 4:37 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> What if I told you there were plans afoot so anyone could have their
>>>> own satellite, complete with a dedicated launch for just that one
>>>> satellite, for mere hundreds of thousands of dollars?
>>>>
>>>> Because there are.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 10:37 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>>>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> OK. Adrian, let's back up - if everyone will make me a gofundbillw
>>>>> project I can buy Hughes or anything I want.  And all of you can get a ride
>>>>> on my yacht with plenty of satellite coverage.  But I suspect that all of
>>>>> you together are not enough to make me a billionaire.  Maybe enough to buy
>>>>> a ride on a yacht (and, typically, get seasick).  bill w
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 12:14 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> But that's not your own satellite.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 9:32 AM William Flynn Wallace via
>>>>>> extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I thought the Hughes company had satellite coverage that would be
>>>>>>> adequate anywhere in the world.   bill w
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 11:20 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Would a teleoperated "kick my own satellite out the door" suffice?
>>>>>>>> ;)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 6:41 AM William Flynn Wallace via
>>>>>>>> extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Well then, how about funding a ride on a rocket to orbit, where I
>>>>>>>>> can kick my own satellite out the door?  Then I can have my yacht.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> FYI - my cholesterol was 170 - optimal - LDL 104. Optimal.  But
>>>>>>>>> last week, in reviewing my stance on statins, I ran across a finding that
>>>>>>>>> statins helped in heart cases even though your cholesterol was normal.
>>>>>>>>> Yesterday they ran it, and LDL was 49!! - total 104.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have no idea where we go from here.  We don't know, and maybe
>>>>>>>>> won't know what caused the heart attack, but I have avoided surgery,
>>>>>>>>> stents, etc.  Now if I can just walk 100 feet without feeling out of
>>>>>>>>> breath......
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks for caring
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> bill w
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 5:18 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
>>>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Excellent news BillW!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Eh, yacht schmacht: you can?t get decent internet out there.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Our long-held notions on what would be really cool to have or do
>>>>>>>>>> changed a lot with the internet: a lotta cool vacation spots don?t get good
>>>>>>>>>> download speeds.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> spike
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On
>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 12, 2020 3:04 PM
>>>>>>>>>> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>>>>>>>>>> *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* [ExI] put up with me
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It looks as though you may have to put up with me awhile longer.
>>>>>>>>>> Catheter test showed nothing:  no buildup of LDL stuff, hence no stent,
>>>>>>>>>> hence no open heart surgery and so on.  (also no reason why I had an attack)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Actually with my low LDL, normal BP, and history of clean scans
>>>>>>>>>> this is exactly what I predicted. Even better I might be able to get off
>>>>>>>>>> some of these pills that make me dizzy and weak and short of breath.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If you feel as good about this as I do, you can make a large
>>>>>>>>>> contribution to fund-my-yacht-billw.com.  You don't want me to
>>>>>>>>>> leave this life without having owned a yacht, do you?  Of course not.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> bill w
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201113/24402561/attachment.htm>

From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Nov 14 00:37:29 2020
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 16:37:29 -0800
Subject: [ExI] put up with me
In-Reply-To: <8743e676-127a-1f4d-1651-8e0696c169eb@pobox.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbyBYkuQrixobL4rwnCY0GH++YT18Hw6O3FaePHR1Vy8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <013301d6b949$d5590320$800b0960$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa6Ga4QXrpvEGeOM4M-vBD+WA_cgT2yadh1xRJ2m7FNuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSVq=_0OLj-U-tg8V4nguZp=uQt7kL=hB=rAxwfhFMNUw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZvsgHNB=40V6vv-Ru-u0V3SX13UT_-Ni0K7NDt2bXdgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRMNiiXYtE0UbmRDjpF4-MwunhK299BYwiHwa4HEdz08A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYXhhzTkgLh9_eTKC2e1wWEU5o4XFkWC69DJ3UCy0iP=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRR_fGG74LQnqRH8t5WB13YZgfVWA=tYypJK+FHB=YfwQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEY9920TP0zmx+CDuUsH_Sj+yTo+e--MTVOOKfyyxKdFXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT-nx-ro02WkF0cvVASvJyiMQwm=pLmejcQnSS-aoRZCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaGx353zs5bBN=Bk5OCKzd8cB3BSDPX77c-GKbitGD2_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <8743e676-127a-1f4d-1651-8e0696c169eb@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSfCVA_6LaSnvq9Ruo78xbuKYjvTGVC9kdK2vPD+Bju9Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 4:32 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On 2020-11-13 16:15, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:
> > Quick (I hope) question;  do you have to get permission from national
> > and international agencies to do what you do re space?  Is there
> > anything, anyone stopping someone from taking a deserted island and
> > launching whatever they want to?
>
> Every speck of land north of 60?S is claimed by some state or other (if
> not two or three).
>

And effectively at & south of - if not technically "claimed" in every
normal sense, jurisdiction would seem to count for the purposes of
launching things from Antarctica to orbit.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201113/3bbdf12c/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 14 01:00:27 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 19:00:27 -0600
Subject: [ExI] future fads
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaUhWLoHONGsnxPWz-7EOEcjeTEDq_GBWCZ67f9ceoC9w@mail.gmail.com>

Did you see the story about the platypus?  They glow in the dark when black
light hits them.

Can you imagine that somehow splicing those genes into people becomes
possible? Of course they will have to come in different colors and maybe
patterns.  And.....    bill w
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201113/4acd5bbf/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 14 01:36:57 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 19:36:57 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: year round school
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNR0b6xu0YyL5ZaRftrzq8Fh5SqdSEQgg-duJnyE5maG2Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZNqG+ZOHO9XOP8SjDSSkAUo6BC7Fvmb47rQKfgnp35wQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEb5hZ=TtWpH=HsDc9yzRtbzYBncbWUwUQehxBBO50DSeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNR0b6xu0YyL5ZaRftrzq8Fh5SqdSEQgg-duJnyE5maG2Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZ=8uXNAfdA+-iTj=iHctj+gAorXGBa38wEuSmzc-LsDw@mail.gmail.com>

You are writing about areas in which algebra can be used.  I'd ask you:
just what percentage of the people actually do use it?  Or even understand
it when they hear it?

Speaking of which, I heard this on TV - more than once:  "He averages 4
yards a carry every time he touches the ball."  That's how much announcers
understand statistics.

Outside of my teaching and using statistics, I have used algebra a total of
two times in my life since college.

How much of it sticks?  I was a volunteer helping build an owl house for a
rescue service.  Two guys were standing around with the belts and equipment
of amateur builders.  I heard 'pi r squared, or is it cubed?' and words
like that.  What they were trying to figure out was the distance from the
edge of the building to the rooftop (the hypotenuse), based on the distance
from the wall to the center and from the center to the top of the roof.  Of
course I told them that they didn't need math about circles.

Maybe I can compromise:  require it, but do not require a senior test for
algebra in order to graduate, like our state does.  A person with an
average IQ can understand abstractions, but below that the ability
diminishes rapidly.  A person who cannot pass 9th grade algebra should be
put into a trade school type program, not a college prep program.  How
about that?  Of course many schools don't offer that - but they should.
English lit as an elective (and that coming from a person with a major in
English).

Just wondering on a different subject:  how many high school grads read
books like those they studied in Western literature?  Maube more than those
that use algebra, but I'll bet it's not many.  the average American reads
one book a year.  Which means, of course, that quite a large percentage
read no books at all. (Here is a good case for using the median, not the
mean - put a lot of zeros in the equation and it skews the mean).

Intellectuals plan curricula.  Maybe they should have some blue collar
workers on those committees to bring a tint of reality to the
requirements.  Home Ec - how to raise children - home finances - religion -
civics - courses everyone needs and no one gets.

bill w

On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 4:58 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I disagree about the lack of value of algebra.
>
> If you're going into business, or any financial field, you'll need
> algebra.  (Then again, much of modern finance is basically a subset of
> computer science and thus STEM.)
>
> Fashion, or any clothing field?  If you need X amount of fabric for 3
> dresses, how much will you need to make just 2?  And many other surface
> area related questions.
>
> Civic activism?  If you can help 1 person every X hours, or Y people every
> 8 hours, which is a better use of your time?
>
> Sports?  Aside from the intuitive calculations done on the field mid-game
> ("at what angle do I send the ball so it will land where I want it to"),
> these days there seems to be no end to sports-related statistical analyses.
>
> Law?  News flash: when they call it the legal "code", that's a very
> similar sort to software "code".  It takes the same sort of thinking to
> find the loopholes.
>
> And that's not getting into making household budgets, and other such
> algebra-enabled tasks that most adults are expected to be capable of
> regardless of employment.
>
> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 11:32 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> my letter to a legislator, head of the Education committee - your
>> thoughts?   bill w
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>> From: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
>> Date: Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 10:48 AM
>> Subject: year round school
>> To: <ddebar at senate.ms.gov>
>>
>>
>> Dear Sir,
>>
>> I have a Ph. D. in Experimental and Clinical Psychology and taught for
>> over 35 years.  The idea of a 'summer slump' comes from studies on memory
>> that do indeed show that students will do more poorly or even fail on tests
>> that they took just a few weeks or months ago.  Even at Harvard.  But, they
>> were not given the chance to study for them again - they had to take them
>> cold.
>>
>> That absolutely does NOT mean that those memories are gone forever.
>> No.  Memories that last more than a day or two are with us permanently,
>> though the longer we live the harder it is to retrieve them, mainly because
>> of competition from later memories.  There are some good reasons to have
>> year long schooling, but the 'summer slump' is not one of them.
>>
>> The very best thing the Legislature could do to help students is to start
>> school later in the day.  At that age they are mostly night owls and wake
>> up slowly, so that learning at 8 o'clock is difficult.  They are there,
>> they are awake, but their brains are still fuzzy.  There are many studies
>> done by physicians and psychologists that validate those conclusions.
>>
>> I do not think it matters with year long schooling how long the breaks
>> are.  I would be in favor of adding hours of school to the ones we have now.
>>
>> Just on a tangent:  requiring Algebra is just wrong.  Fewer than 5% of
>> the high school graduates ever use it.  I am in a chat group with a bunch
>> of engineers and they concur - no value to students unless they are going
>> into science, technology, engineering, or math (STEM), and those students
>> will certainly take algebra, precalculus, and calculus if offered, along
>> with geometry, solid geometry, trigonometry.  Requiring algebra keeps many
>> students from graduating.  A waste of minds, in my opinion.  And a lifelong
>> hindrance to job prospects.  Of course it differentially impacts minority
>> students.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> William F. Wallace, Ph. D. University of Alabama, Tuscaloosa
>> Brandon MS
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201113/b567a0d3/attachment-0001.htm>

From danust2012 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 14 01:56:27 2020
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2020 01:56:27 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: year round school
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEb5hZ=TtWpH=HsDc9yzRtbzYBncbWUwUQehxBBO50DSeg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZNqG+ZOHO9XOP8SjDSSkAUo6BC7Fvmb47rQKfgnp35wQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEb5hZ=TtWpH=HsDc9yzRtbzYBncbWUwUQehxBBO50DSeg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACB7g275Kx3Pm6A67Eqbusa5XuG_5rmNbsD4jO=NUM==htvnqA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 7:32 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> my letter to a legislator, head of the Education committee - your thoughts?   bill w
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> Date: Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 10:48 AM
> Subject: year round school
> To: <ddebar at senate.ms.gov>
>
> Dear Sir,
>
> I have a Ph. D. in Experimental and Clinical Psychology and taught for over 35 years.  The idea of a 'summer slump' comes from studies on memory that do indeed show that students will do more poorly or even fail on tests that they took just a few weeks or months ago.  Even at Harvard.  But, they were not given the chance to study for them again - they had to take them cold.
>
> That absolutely does NOT mean that those memories are gone forever.  No.  Memories that last more than a day or two are with us permanently, though the longer we live the harder it is to retrieve them, mainly because of competition from later memories.  There are some good reasons to have year long schooling, but the 'summer slump' is not one of them.
>
> The very best thing the Legislature could do to help students is to start school later in the day.  At that age they are mostly night owls and wake up slowly, so that learning at 8 o'clock is difficult.  They are there, they are awake, but their brains are still fuzzy.  There are many studies done by physicians and psychologists that validate those conclusions.
>
> I do not think it matters with year long schooling how long the breaks are.  I would be in favor of adding hours of school to the ones we have now.
>
> Just on a tangent:  requiring Algebra is just wrong.  Fewer than 5% of the high school graduates ever use it.  I am in a chat group with a bunch of engineers and they concur - no value to students unless they are going into science, technology, engineering, or math (STEM), and those students will certainly take algebra, precalculus, and calculus if offered, along with geometry, solid geometry, trigonometry.  Requiring algebra keeps many students from graduating.  A waste of minds, in my opinion.  And a lifelong hindrance to job prospects.  Of course it differentially impacts minority students.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> William F. Wallace, Ph. D. University of Alabama, Tuscaloosa
> Brandon MS

I agree with Adrian about algebra being very useful, especially to
people who don't pursue STEM careers.

But I would turn this around on you. It's not so much that failing
algebra keeps kids from graduating high school, but that the high
school diploma was so important -- though nowadays, it's the Bachelors
and even the Masters in some fields. In fact, one can learn algebra
before and without getting high school diploma -- just as one can
learn to read, write, and even do complicated mental stuff without
said diploma. Yet someone without one is almost certain to be unable
to get jobs that don't even require more than, say, a fifth grader's
level of education in competence. Therein lies the real problem with
education today: vast expenditures to little effect mainly aimed at
credentialing people because there's a credentials arms race.

Again, I recommend Bryan Caplan's 02018 book _The Case Against
Education: Why the Education System Is a Waste of Time and Money_.

With regard to the summer slump, I think it will fix more things in
long term memory, but there will still be losses. For instance, how
much history or civics or high school French will you remember if you
went to school year round, graduated, but then never use any of these
for a decade? Surely, you won't be starting at zero, but the question
might better be why teach stuff kids aren't interested in, will only
remember on the test, and will only recall later if at all after much
prompting? What's the goal here? (Second language instruction, in my
view, should take place at a much younger age anyhow. That's how the
rest of the world tends to work with this. And given current
conditions in the US, the basic student in the US should be fluent in
Spanish as a second language before they reach puberty. And I've
nothing against having kids, provided they have a say, learning a
third language. Etc.)

I agree about the teenage brain being ready much later in the day.
Therein lies a problem: adults who are supposed to teach these teens
actually are better earlier in the day and fade earlier. So, it's kind
of a compromise one would have to look for here or some tech fix --
like having teachers from one timezone teach kids in another. (And, of
course, all kids aren't alike, so with the tech for remote teaching,
why not parlay this into suiting each class to the students and the
teachers across the globe? Kids who are really early risers -- though
few -- could go to early classes while the rest go later, especially
if it's mostly/all remote.)

Regards,

Dan


From bronto at pobox.com  Sat Nov 14 02:25:49 2020
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 18:25:49 -0800
Subject: [ExI] future fads
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaUhWLoHONGsnxPWz-7EOEcjeTEDq_GBWCZ67f9ceoC9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaUhWLoHONGsnxPWz-7EOEcjeTEDq_GBWCZ67f9ceoC9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <15175918-13ea-98c0-1ecc-f7d84609fd9c@pobox.com>

On 2020-11-13 17:00, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:
> Did you see the story about the platypus?? They glow in the dark when 
> black light hits them.

If that could have been worked into ?Yellow Submarine? somehow ...

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org



From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu  Sat Nov 14 05:01:52 2020
From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2020 00:01:52 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: year round school
In-Reply-To: <CACB7g275Kx3Pm6A67Eqbusa5XuG_5rmNbsD4jO=NUM==htvnqA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACB7g275Kx3Pm6A67Eqbusa5XuG_5rmNbsD4jO=NUM==htvnqA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <33F64001-B2ED-44A0-9446-64BC456B5F01@alumni.virginia.edu>

I?ve given some thought to this topic of hours and have authored similar letters as Bill and been a co-signer to some. Me and a cadre of local mental health professionals have been seeking a change in the hours of schools in our distinct for at least 5 years. My high schooler has to be in his first classroom at 7:45am. His brain wants ten hours of sleep but he and his peers like to be up well after 10pm. Getting them to bed on time meets with resistance and instances of sneakily texting from bed. Do the algebra if you graduated high school and can. He doesn?t get enough sleep and drags through days too often. The research and data on what adolescents? brains need is clear. I think our failure to convince powers-that-be to change the hours comes down to sports. And this is true in other jurisdictions across the country. 

There are some parents and stakeholders that value and prioritize sports (which require, sometimes daily, after-school practices). Those parents see their kids come home after 1-3 hours of practice and have hours of homework. I used to have three hours of homework in high school. It seems like a little less for my high schooler  Then there is dinner to fit in and they want their kids to have some unstructured time before it?s time for bed. If you change the school hours your options are all of that after school stuff gets pushed back a few hours later such that there is no unstructured time after homework is done basically; or you move those sport practices to before school and make just those kids get up early to squeeze in 1-2 hours of practice before classes start at 9 or later for example. The sport people don?t want either, so status quo remains. 

Personally, I tried out for 2 sports early on in high school and ended up playing chess after school, working on the yearbook or school paper, doing community service, and or working on drama productions on the stage and light crew which could take 3-5 hours on the run up to opening night. I had an hour commute to my private high school most of the time. So I know what it?s like to get home after eating on the road and doing homework until bed time. I loved doing those plays I?ll have you know. I was not deprived, and I?m not complaining. It was a choice on my part to be doing that vs spending additional time bumming around with friends or playing video games. So I didn?t mind it and was willing to have those trade offs. 

If athletics program kids make similar commitments and don?t mind getting up early I think that would be preferred over the current state of everyone being forced to get up early and being disadvantaged. Consider many kids may have nothing structured like sports practice after school and thus no motive to ensure school ends early enough to fit in lots of stuff after school. 

-Henry 

> On Nov 13, 2020, at 8:57 PM, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> ?On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 7:32 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> my letter to a legislator, head of the Education committee - your thoughts?   bill w
>> 
>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>> From: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
>> Date: Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 10:48 AM
>> Subject: year round school
>> To: <ddebar at senate.ms.gov>
>> 
>> Dear Sir,
>> 
>> I have a Ph. D. in Experimental and Clinical Psychology and taught for over 35 years.  The idea of a 'summer slump' comes from studies on memory that do indeed show that students will do more poorly or even fail on tests that they took just a few weeks or months ago.  Even at Harvard.  But, they were not given the chance to study for them again - they had to take them cold.
>> 
>> That absolutely does NOT mean that those memories are gone forever.  No.  Memories that last more than a day or two are with us permanently, though the longer we live the harder it is to retrieve them, mainly because of competition from later memories.  There are some good reasons to have year long schooling, but the 'summer slump' is not one of them.
>> 
>> The very best thing the Legislature could do to help students is to start school later in the day.  At that age they are mostly night owls and wake up slowly, so that learning at 8 o'clock is difficult.  They are there, they are awake, but their brains are still fuzzy.  There are many studies done by physicians and psychologists that validate those conclusions.
>> 
>> I do not think it matters with year long schooling how long the breaks are.  I would be in favor of adding hours of school to the ones we have now.
>> 
>> Just on a tangent:  requiring Algebra is just wrong.  Fewer than 5% of the high school graduates ever use it.  I am in a chat group with a bunch of engineers and they concur - no value to students unless they are going into science, technology, engineering, or math (STEM), and those students will certainly take algebra, precalculus, and calculus if offered, along with geometry, solid geometry, trigonometry.  Requiring algebra keeps many students from graduating.  A waste of minds, in my opinion.  And a lifelong hindrance to job prospects.  Of course it differentially impacts minority students.
>> 
>> Sincerely,
>> 
>> William F. Wallace, Ph. D. University of Alabama, Tuscaloosa
>> Brandon MS
> 
> I agree with Adrian about algebra being very useful, especially to
> people who don't pursue STEM careers.
> 
> But I would turn this around on you. It's not so much that failing
> algebra keeps kids from graduating high school, but that the high
> school diploma was so important -- though nowadays, it's the Bachelors
> and even the Masters in some fields. In fact, one can learn algebra
> before and without getting high school diploma -- just as one can
> learn to read, write, and even do complicated mental stuff without
> said diploma. Yet someone without one is almost certain to be unable
> to get jobs that don't even require more than, say, a fifth grader's
> level of education in competence. Therein lies the real problem with
> education today: vast expenditures to little effect mainly aimed at
> credentialing people because there's a credentials arms race.
> 
> Again, I recommend Bryan Caplan's 02018 book _The Case Against
> Education: Why the Education System Is a Waste of Time and Money_.
> 
> With regard to the summer slump, I think it will fix more things in
> long term memory, but there will still be losses. For instance, how
> much history or civics or high school French will you remember if you
> went to school year round, graduated, but then never use any of these
> for a decade? Surely, you won't be starting at zero, but the question
> might better be why teach stuff kids aren't interested in, will only
> remember on the test, and will only recall later if at all after much
> prompting? What's the goal here? (Second language instruction, in my
> view, should take place at a much younger age anyhow. That's how the
> rest of the world tends to work with this. And given current
> conditions in the US, the basic student in the US should be fluent in
> Spanish as a second language before they reach puberty. And I've
> nothing against having kids, provided they have a say, learning a
> third language. Etc.)
> 
> I agree about the teenage brain being ready much later in the day.
> Therein lies a problem: adults who are supposed to teach these teens
> actually are better earlier in the day and fade earlier. So, it's kind
> of a compromise one would have to look for here or some tech fix --
> like having teachers from one timezone teach kids in another. (And, of
> course, all kids aren't alike, so with the tech for remote teaching,
> why not parlay this into suiting each class to the students and the
> teachers across the globe? Kids who are really early risers -- though
> few -- could go to early classes while the rest go later, especially
> if it's mostly/all remote.)
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Dan
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Nov 14 13:42:14 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2020 05:42:14 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: year round school
In-Reply-To: <33F64001-B2ED-44A0-9446-64BC456B5F01@alumni.virginia.edu>
References: <CACB7g275Kx3Pm6A67Eqbusa5XuG_5rmNbsD4jO=NUM==htvnqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <33F64001-B2ED-44A0-9446-64BC456B5F01@alumni.virginia.edu>
Message-ID: <002001d6ba8b$f6a669d0$e3f33d70$@rainier66.com>

Thanks Henry, great essay.

I too have a high schooler and agree: they like to stay up later than I do.  California schools took action on this and moved earliest start times back from 730 to 830.  Then the pandemic hit, which changed things even more, but in some ways for the better, at least for some students: they can drag out at 828, log on, be in class ready to go.  Eat breakfast after or even during, if they move the camera up to show only eyes.  Plenty do this.  I know for I often attend that very worthwhile first period class in the morning, so I can see who is doing what.

We recently heard Santa Clara public schools will be online the rest of the year because of disappointing covid numbers that plenty of us already knew were likely, for we know that flu travels best indoors, regardless of all other considerations.  It turned cool recently.  People went indoors.  School's online for the year.

Online school is very bad for some, not as good as in-person school for most, a benefit for a few.  The academically rich get richer, the poor get poorer.  We know.  A sizable fraction of the students don't even bother to participate: they log on, mute their microphone, set the camera to show only the top of their head, then play video games on a separate device.  As far as we know, the teacher is obligated to give that student a passing grade.  The failing students know this as well.  Some choose to get their pass and a free high school diploma.

Other students turn a bad situation around to their advantage.  I am a volunteer for American Math Competition, California Math League and Science Olympiad, so I am lucky to know the kind of students who make stepping stones out of stumbling blocks.  But I see plenty of students who find ways to turn stepping stones into stumbling blocks.  Some step up, some fall down.

spike












-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Henry Rivera via extropy-chat
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 9:02 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: Henry Rivera <hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Fwd: year round school

I?ve given some thought to this topic of hours and have authored similar letters as Bill and been a co-signer to some. Me and a cadre of local mental health professionals have been seeking a change in the hours of schools in our distinct for at least 5 years. My high schooler has to be in his first classroom at 7:45am. His brain wants ten hours of sleep but he and his peers like to be up well after 10pm. Getting them to bed on time meets with resistance and instances of sneakily texting from bed. Do the algebra if you graduated high school and can. He doesn?t get enough sleep and drags through days too often. The research and data on what adolescents? brains need is clear. I think our failure to convince powers-that-be to change the hours comes down to sports. And this is true in other jurisdictions across the country. 

There are some parents and stakeholders that value and prioritize sports (which require, sometimes daily, after-school practices). Those parents see their kids come home after 1-3 hours of practice and have hours of homework. I used to have three hours of homework in high school. It seems like a little less for my high schooler  Then there is dinner to fit in and they want their kids to have some unstructured time before it?s time for bed. If you change the school hours your options are all of that after school stuff gets pushed back a few hours later such that there is no unstructured time after homework is done basically; or you move those sport practices to before school and make just those kids get up early to squeeze in 1-2 hours of practice before classes start at 9 or later for example. The sport people don?t want either, so status quo remains. 

Personally, I tried out for 2 sports early on in high school and ended up playing chess after school, working on the yearbook or school paper, doing community service, and or working on drama productions on the stage and light crew which could take 3-5 hours on the run up to opening night. I had an hour commute to my private high school most of the time. So I know what it?s like to get home after eating on the road and doing homework until bed time. I loved doing those plays I?ll have you know. I was not deprived, and I?m not complaining. It was a choice on my part to be doing that vs spending additional time bumming around with friends or playing video games. So I didn?t mind it and was willing to have those trade offs. 

If athletics program kids make similar commitments and don?t mind getting up early I think that would be preferred over the current state of everyone being forced to get up early and being disadvantaged. Consider many kids may have nothing structured like sports practice after school and thus no motive to ensure school ends early enough to fit in lots of stuff after school. 

-Henry 

> On Nov 13, 2020, at 8:57 PM, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> ?On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 7:32 PM William Flynn Wallace via 
> extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> my letter to a legislator, head of the Education committee - your thoughts?   bill w
>> 
>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>> From: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
>> Date: Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 10:48 AM
>> Subject: year round school
>> To: <ddebar at senate.ms.gov>
>> 
>> Dear Sir,
>> 
>> I have a Ph. D. in Experimental and Clinical Psychology and taught for over 35 years.  The idea of a 'summer slump' comes from studies on memory that do indeed show that students will do more poorly or even fail on tests that they took just a few weeks or months ago.  Even at Harvard.  But, they were not given the chance to study for them again - they had to take them cold.
>> 
>> That absolutely does NOT mean that those memories are gone forever.  No.  Memories that last more than a day or two are with us permanently, though the longer we live the harder it is to retrieve them, mainly because of competition from later memories.  There are some good reasons to have year long schooling, but the 'summer slump' is not one of them.
>> 
>> The very best thing the Legislature could do to help students is to start school later in the day.  At that age they are mostly night owls and wake up slowly, so that learning at 8 o'clock is difficult.  They are there, they are awake, but their brains are still fuzzy.  There are many studies done by physicians and psychologists that validate those conclusions.
>> 
>> I do not think it matters with year long schooling how long the breaks are.  I would be in favor of adding hours of school to the ones we have now.
>> 
>> Just on a tangent:  requiring Algebra is just wrong.  Fewer than 5% of the high school graduates ever use it.  I am in a chat group with a bunch of engineers and they concur - no value to students unless they are going into science, technology, engineering, or math (STEM), and those students will certainly take algebra, precalculus, and calculus if offered, along with geometry, solid geometry, trigonometry.  Requiring algebra keeps many students from graduating.  A waste of minds, in my opinion.  And a lifelong hindrance to job prospects.  Of course it differentially impacts minority students.
>> 
>> Sincerely,
>> 
>> William F. Wallace, Ph. D. University of Alabama, Tuscaloosa Brandon 
>> MS
> 
> I agree with Adrian about algebra being very useful, especially to 
> people who don't pursue STEM careers.
> 
> But I would turn this around on you. It's not so much that failing 
> algebra keeps kids from graduating high school, but that the high 
> school diploma was so important -- though nowadays, it's the Bachelors 
> and even the Masters in some fields. In fact, one can learn algebra 
> before and without getting high school diploma -- just as one can 
> learn to read, write, and even do complicated mental stuff without 
> said diploma. Yet someone without one is almost certain to be unable 
> to get jobs that don't even require more than, say, a fifth grader's 
> level of education in competence. Therein lies the real problem with 
> education today: vast expenditures to little effect mainly aimed at 
> credentialing people because there's a credentials arms race.
> 
> Again, I recommend Bryan Caplan's 02018 book _The Case Against
> Education: Why the Education System Is a Waste of Time and Money_.
> 
> With regard to the summer slump, I think it will fix more things in 
> long term memory, but there will still be losses. For instance, how 
> much history or civics or high school French will you remember if you 
> went to school year round, graduated, but then never use any of these 
> for a decade? Surely, you won't be starting at zero, but the question 
> might better be why teach stuff kids aren't interested in, will only 
> remember on the test, and will only recall later if at all after much 
> prompting? What's the goal here? (Second language instruction, in my 
> view, should take place at a much younger age anyhow. That's how the 
> rest of the world tends to work with this. And given current 
> conditions in the US, the basic student in the US should be fluent in 
> Spanish as a second language before they reach puberty. And I've 
> nothing against having kids, provided they have a say, learning a 
> third language. Etc.)
> 
> I agree about the teenage brain being ready much later in the day.
> Therein lies a problem: adults who are supposed to teach these teens 
> actually are better earlier in the day and fade earlier. So, it's kind 
> of a compromise one would have to look for here or some tech fix -- 
> like having teachers from one timezone teach kids in another. (And, of 
> course, all kids aren't alike, so with the tech for remote teaching, 
> why not parlay this into suiting each class to the students and the 
> teachers across the globe? Kids who are really early risers -- though 
> few -- could go to early classes while the rest go later, especially 
> if it's mostly/all remote.)
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Dan
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Nov 14 14:20:10 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2020 06:20:10 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: year round school
In-Reply-To: <002001d6ba8b$f6a669d0$e3f33d70$@rainier66.com>
References: <CACB7g275Kx3Pm6A67Eqbusa5XuG_5rmNbsD4jO=NUM==htvnqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <33F64001-B2ED-44A0-9446-64BC456B5F01@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <002001d6ba8b$f6a669d0$e3f33d70$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <002601d6ba91$4321c840$c96558c0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 

>...I am lucky to know the kind of students who make stepping stones out of stumbling blocks.  But I see plenty of students who find ways to turn stepping stones into stumbling blocks.  Some step up, some fall down.   spike


As with any new technology being used by a lotta people, new and fun ways to do things are discovered.  Online learning using Zoom is a great example.  Google classroom is even better in some ways, but I know more about Zoom, so this essay is mostly about that platform.

I mentioned in an earlier commentary that in current public schools, students are required to attend (so their cameras must be on and the student must appear in the field of view to verify presence) but are not actually required to participate in order to get a passing grade.  The students can sign up to be graded on a pass/fail basis this year.  If a student is satisfied with her GPA, there is no compelling reason to not use P/F grading, ja?  Some go into this year with a 4.0, clearly no way to improve, plenty of ways to fumble, take the safe P which does not calculate into GPA.

Zoom has a background feature where it somehow does face recognition and shows only the face.  This feature works, even if the camera can only see the top of the head (anyone here know how the heck that works (I can report that it does work well.))  With background running, you can't tell where the student is located.  My son went to a dentist appointment yesterday, took his ChromeBook with him with Zoom running, attended class on the trip over, during the preliminaries at the office and kept the camera running right up until the dentist arrived.  Cameras can be turned off temporarily (which is a good thing (a most advisable thing in some circumstances (if one is a news commentator for instance in a meeting with colleagues.)))  The teacher and classmates couldn't even tell he was away from his desk.  

Some use a phone to attend meetings, or go somewhere.  Usually you can tell when someone is walking.  If they don't have backgrounder on, then one can see trees passing by, dead giveaway, but more common is that the person appears to be looking up at about pi/4 radians, and rocking left and right.  She's walking, not in class.

The camera and screen are usually two separate things, and need not be in the same direction.  A Zoom meeting can show the participant in side view for instance, and some do.  Often the camera is the phone, so she can take it into the bathroom, on mute so the meeting people cannot hear the flush (and some do (it is hard to tell when someone does that (if they know how to use their phones correctly.)))  

One of my son's classes requires two separate devices, each with a camera, to take tests.  Reasoning: their school-issued ChromeBook has a camera, but a second camera is required to watch the test space and verify the student isn't cheating.  The test question goes up on the ChromeBook screen, the second device watches everything.  The process works.

spike  





From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Nov 14 14:53:49 2020
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2020 14:53:49 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ExI] British government commissions SBSP report
References: <247043905.9664686.1605365629637.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <247043905.9664686.1605365629637@mail.yahoo.com>

In today's news that doesn't concern covid, brexit or political infighting, the UK government issued a press release today about space based solar power.
UK government commissions space solar power stations research


| 
| 
| 
|  |  |

 |

 |
| 
|  | 
UK government commissions space solar power stations research

Solar energy harvested in space offers the potential for an unlimited and constant zero carbon power source
 |

 |

 |





The UK government has commissioned new research into space-based solar power (SBSP) systems that would use very large solar power satellites to collect solar energy, convert it into high-frequency radio waves, and safely beam it back to ground-based receivers connected to the electrical power grid.

It is an idea first conjured by science-fiction writer Isaac Asimov in 1941, and is now being studied by several nations because the lightweight solar panels and wireless power transmission technology is advancing rapidly. This, together with lower cost commercial space launch, may make the concept of solar power satellites more feasible and economically viable.

Now the UK in 2020 will explore whether this renewable technology could offer a resilient, safe and sustainable energy source.

The study, led by Frazer-Nash Consultancy, will consider the engineering and economics of such a system ? whether it could deliver affordable energy for consumers, and the engineering and technology that would be required to build it. One of the biggest issues to overcome is assembling the massive satellites in orbit, which has not been done before at this scale.

Dr Graham Turnock, Chief Executive of the UK Space Agency, said:


The Sun never sets in space, so a space solar power system could supply renewable energy to anywhere on the planet, day or night, rain or shine. It is an idea that has existed for decades, but has always felt decades away.

The UK is growing its status as a global player in space and we have bold plans to launch small satellites in the coming years. Space solar could be another string to our bow, and this study will help establish whether it is right for the UK.


Historically, the cost of rocket launches and the weight that would be required for a project of this scale made the idea of space-based solar power unfeasible. But the emergence of privately-led space ventures has brought the cost of launch down dramatically in the last decade.

Martin Soltau, Space Business Manager at Frazer-Nash outlined what the study will involve:


Decarbonising our economy is vital. We need to explore new technologies to provide clean, affordable, secure and dependable energy for the nation. SBSP has the potential to contribute substantially to UK energy generation, and offers many benefits if it can be made practical and affordable.

Frazer-Nash is studying the leading international solar power satellite designs, and we will be drawing up the engineering plan to deploy an operational SBSP system by 2050. We are forming an expert panel, comprised of leading SBSP experts and space and energy organisations, to gain a range of industry views.

We will compare SBSP alongside other forms of renewable energy, to see how it would contribute as part of a future mix of clean energy technologies.

We have also partnered with Oxford Economics, who have significant experience in the space sector and who will provide additional insight to the economic assessment of the system, and the benefit to the UK economy.


As the effects of climate change become more pronounced, prominent research institutions and government agencies are focusing new money and attention on novel approaches to reduce global warming.

In 2019, Britain passed an important milestone, with more electricity generated from sources like wind, solar and nuclear power, that produce almost no carbon dioxide emissions, than from carbon-emitting fuels like natural gas and coal.

According to the World Resources Institute ? a Washington-based non-profit that tracks climate change ? Britain has reduced carbon dioxide generated in the country by about 40 per cent, which is more than any other major industrialised country.

As the National Space Council sets a new direction for our space policy, the UK Space Agency is committed to understanding the future opportunities space technologies open up.

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201114/b0b494b3/attachment.htm>

From avant at sollegro.com  Sat Nov 14 19:02:35 2020
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2020 11:02:35 -0800
Subject: [ExI] put up with me
Message-ID: <20201114110235.Horde.IqUBUWiy8u8AusSeCk87WpB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>


Quoting Bill Wallace:

> FYI - my cholesterol was 170 - optimal - LDL 104. Optimal.  But last week,
> in reviewing my stance on statins, I ran across a finding that statins
> helped in heart cases even though your cholesterol was normal.  Yesterday
> they ran it, and LDL was 49!! - total 104.

Those numbers are really good. Was this your first heart attack?

> I have no idea where we go from here.  We don't know, and maybe won't know
> what caused the heart attack, but I have avoided surgery, stents, etc.  Now
> if I can just walk 100 feet without feeling out of breath......

Were the beta-blockers solely for high blood pressure? If there was no  
arterial plaque, then it could be coronary artery spasms

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/angina/expert-answers/coronary-artery-spasm/faq-20058316

or MINOCA.

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/circulationaha.117.027666

> Thanks for caring

I am glad you are still around, but no dice on the yacht. If I had the  
money for a yacht, then funding cardiac stem-cell research would   
probably be a better investment anyway. :-)

Stuart LaForge



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 14 20:47:17 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2020 14:47:17 -0600
Subject: [ExI] put up with me
In-Reply-To: <20201114110235.Horde.IqUBUWiy8u8AusSeCk87WpB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <20201114110235.Horde.IqUBUWiy8u8AusSeCk87WpB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaEif1e_1wWem+5-J2WTdNm8Ns5JZMZ37hmWv62TFEJSQ@mail.gmail.com>

Stuart, when I was tested this summer, it came as a complete surprise that
the results showed that I had had a heart attack.  The catheter showed no
blockages etc. so that's out for a reason.  The beta blocker is for heart
speed.  My usual was around 90 and now it's around 60 - much less strain on
the heart.

The statin has reduced the LDL to 49, so the total is 115 or so.  I did
read that lowering it even in people like me whose total before the statin
was 170, helped in the morbidity department, and even though I have ranted
about statins in past posts, I have no side effects.  I will be asking
about lowering the BP meds.  Entresto, a new drug, really causes shortness
of breath rather severely, in addition to dizziness.  I am being extremely
careful not to fall.

I have never had any chest pains.  Did you get any use out of that book I
sent to you?   bill w

On Sat, Nov 14, 2020 at 1:04 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> Quoting Bill Wallace:
>
> > FYI - my cholesterol was 170 - optimal - LDL 104. Optimal.  But last
> week,
> > in reviewing my stance on statins, I ran across a finding that statins
> > helped in heart cases even though your cholesterol was normal.  Yesterday
> > they ran it, and LDL was 49!! - total 104.
>
> Those numbers are really good. Was this your first heart attack?
>
> > I have no idea where we go from here.  We don't know, and maybe won't
> know
> > what caused the heart attack, but I have avoided surgery, stents, etc.
> Now
> > if I can just walk 100 feet without feeling out of breath......
>
> Were the beta-blockers solely for high blood pressure? If there was no
> arterial plaque, then it could be coronary artery spasms
>
>
> https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/angina/expert-answers/coronary-artery-spasm/faq-20058316
>
> or MINOCA.
>
> https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/circulationaha.117.027666
>
> > Thanks for caring
>
> I am glad you are still around, but no dice on the yacht. If I had the
> money for a yacht, then funding cardiac stem-cell research would
> probably be a better investment anyway. :-)
>
> Stuart LaForge
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201114/13255a56/attachment.htm>

From giulio at gmail.com  Sun Nov 15 06:29:05 2020
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2020 07:29:05 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Self-consistent,
 paradox-free time travel in one and many worlds
Message-ID: <CAKTCJydXTcprvQksH7=7ktZmEQGVUZeHdFWiey9mk2skak5LwA@mail.gmail.com>

Self-consistent, paradox-free time travel in one and many worlds

A combination of self-consistent causal loops in one world and
Everett?s multiverse of many worlds...

https://turingchurch.net/self-consistent-paradox-free-time-travel-in-one-and-many-worlds-b978a965196b


From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Nov 15 14:52:59 2020
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2020 14:52:59 +0000
Subject: [ExI] The Age of Sex Robots
Message-ID: <CAL_armg0pmkfF+NL1oXgGMZpSr5h8cGfK=_KdnM_75=ijCBzZg@mail.gmail.com>

Psychology Today
David W. Wahl Ph.D.     Nov 13, 2020

The pros and cons in this emerging sexual age.

<https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/sexual-self/202011/the-age-sex-robots>

Quote:
The question here is not whether or not sex robots are coming (they
are) or how they are going to be continually evolving. The question
here concerns the psychological and social ramifications that may
accompany this brave new sexual world. As with any technology, there
is a laundry list of pros and cons to consider.
--------------

The author considers the problems of using sex robots as misplaced
human relationships.
What if, as sex robots continue evolving, humans find that en masse
they *prefer* sex with advanced robots? The birth rate in western
society is already plummeting, so will reproduction just stop?
Robots are rather expensive, but wealthier humans could have a harem
of sex robots to play with.
What's not to like?   ;)

BillK

From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Nov 15 15:53:12 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2020 07:53:12 -0800
Subject: [ExI] The Age of Sex Robots
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armg0pmkfF+NL1oXgGMZpSr5h8cGfK=_KdnM_75=ijCBzZg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armg0pmkfF+NL1oXgGMZpSr5h8cGfK=_KdnM_75=ijCBzZg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006301d6bb67$6cf6af60$46e40e20$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat
Subject: [ExI] The Age of Sex Robots

Psychology Today
David W. Wahl Ph.D.     Nov 13, 2020

The pros and cons in this emerging sexual age.

<https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/sexual-self/202011/the-age-sex-robo
ts>

Quote:
The question here is not whether or not sex robots are coming (they
are) or how they are going to be continually evolving. The question here
concerns the psychological and social ramifications that may accompany this
brave new sexual world. As with any technology, there is a laundry list of
pros and cons to consider.
--------------

The author considers the problems of using sex robots as misplaced human
relationships.
What if, as sex robots continue evolving, humans find that en masse they
*prefer* sex with advanced robots? The birth rate in western society is
already plummeting, so will reproduction just stop?
Robots are rather expensive, but wealthier humans could have a harem of sex
robots to play with.
What's not to like?   ;)

BillK
_______________________________________________



Reproduction will not stop.  There are plenty of people who want the family
life experience, or rather enough of them to keep humanity from going
extinct.  If they get good with them, they will be a gift.  I am thinking
about the rental market in particular.  Plenty of married older men would
see it as morally wrong to employ a harlot (I do consider that very wrong
and have never done it.)  Those same guys might give a robot a whirl for the
same price (I don't see that as a violation of the marriage contract or any
form of adultery, and carries no risk from what I can tell.) 

I have little doubt there are plenty of humans who will prefer robot sex,
and these are exactly the market we need.  Plenty of people realize they
want family life eventually but they are not suitable parents yet: not
financially secure enough, need more education, want to achieve a certain
social rank etc.  I completely understand.  For those we create good sex
machines, take care of their bio needs until they achieve those goals, all
is good.  Plenty of older people lose their spouse in later years.  They
still want to copulate, but recognize the risk and disadvantages of forming
a new marriage in the later years.

This one will be better than flying cars, but is achievable.  They never
really covered it in the Jetsons, but they shoulda.

spike


From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Nov 15 17:44:44 2020
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2020 09:44:44 -0800
Subject: [ExI] The Age of Sex Robots
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armg0pmkfF+NL1oXgGMZpSr5h8cGfK=_KdnM_75=ijCBzZg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armg0pmkfF+NL1oXgGMZpSr5h8cGfK=_KdnM_75=ijCBzZg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQWOsKsr-jBoBp+CW=bkgyUK2y9=ePqrw21HRK8-r8x3g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 6:55 AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> What if, as sex robots continue evolving, humans find that en masse
> they *prefer* sex with advanced robots? The birth rate in western
> society is already plummeting, so will reproduction just stop?
>

Sex and reproduction are already nearly delinked in Western society.  The
advent of more ways to have sex that do not lead to reproduction does not
seem like it will have a significant further impact on birth rates.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201115/aa5a2cae/attachment-0001.htm>

From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Nov 15 21:59:27 2020
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2020 21:59:27 +0000
Subject: [ExI] The Age of Sex Robots
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQWOsKsr-jBoBp+CW=bkgyUK2y9=ePqrw21HRK8-r8x3g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armg0pmkfF+NL1oXgGMZpSr5h8cGfK=_KdnM_75=ijCBzZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQWOsKsr-jBoBp+CW=bkgyUK2y9=ePqrw21HRK8-r8x3g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armid=So3gU8NysmENd_MsLa34BxdN3hGydsPV5s5Hd0R5w@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 15 Nov 2020 at 17:47, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Sex and reproduction are already nearly delinked in Western society.  The advent of more ways to have sex that do not lead to reproduction does not seem like it will have a significant further impact on birth rates.
> _______________________________________________


Both you and Spike think that sex robots will have little effect on
the birth rate. But even without robots the western birth rate is
steadily reducing. There are still many abortions at present and the
estimate is that around half of unplanned pregnancies are aborted, so
that is a lot of unplanned pregnancies. Apparently quite a lot of
women using contraceptives still manage to get pregnant.
I agree that there is probably a minimum birth rate level where there
will always be some people who want to have children, but that level
might be below the level required to maintain the population level.
Another thought is that as sex robots become more capable and have AI
added (Siri?) they will become companion robots, not just sex dolls.
And it would be a good idea to supply these advanced sex robots (and
contraception) free of charge to countries that still have high birth
rates otherwise their population will outnunber western societies in a
generation or two.


BillK

From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Nov 15 22:26:45 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2020 14:26:45 -0800
Subject: [ExI] The Age of Sex Robots
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armid=So3gU8NysmENd_MsLa34BxdN3hGydsPV5s5Hd0R5w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armg0pmkfF+NL1oXgGMZpSr5h8cGfK=_KdnM_75=ijCBzZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQWOsKsr-jBoBp+CW=bkgyUK2y9=ePqrw21HRK8-r8x3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armid=So3gU8NysmENd_MsLa34BxdN3hGydsPV5s5Hd0R5w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00d701d6bb9e$675ddd80$36199880$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
BillK via extropy-chat
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2020 1:59 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: BillK <pharos at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] The Age of Sex Robots

On Sun, 15 Nov 2020 at 17:47, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Sex and reproduction are already nearly delinked in Western society.  The
advent of more ways to have sex that do not lead to reproduction does not
seem like it will have a significant further impact on birth rates.
> _______________________________________________


Both you and Spike think that sex robots will have little effect on the
birth rate. But even without robots the western birth rate is steadily
reducing. There are still many abortions at present and the estimate is that
around half of unplanned pregnancies are aborted, so that is a lot of
unplanned pregnancies. Apparently quite a lot of women using contraceptives
still manage to get pregnant.
I agree that there is probably a minimum birth rate level where there will
always be some people who want to have children, but that level might be
below the level required to maintain the population level.
Another thought is that as sex robots become more capable and have AI added
(Siri?) they will become companion robots, not just sex dolls.
And it would be a good idea to supply these advanced sex robots (and
contraception) free of charge to countries that still have high birth rates
otherwise their population will outnunber western societies in a generation
or two.


BillK
_______________________________________________



Hi BillK.  

>... Apparently quite a lot of women using contraceptives still manage to
get pregnant...

Hmmm, well I will leave it at this: there are those who get abortions as a
form of contraception.  They don't worry about taking pills: those cost
money.  Abortions are free.

Regarding sex robots: it isn't just sex really.  I see the whole companion
robot business as huge.  It could be an entire industry to figure out how to
create conversational robots that are interesting, fun, will pay attention
to those who want that.  

Consider how popular dogs are.  For all their other shortcomings, dogs love
their people.  If we can figure out how to do a fraction of that and write
software to do that, we are looking at the salvation of humankind: we can
end overpopulation, stop world hunger, make a buttload of money, everything.



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 15 23:16:56 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2020 17:16:56 -0600
Subject: [ExI] The Age of Sex Robots
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armid=So3gU8NysmENd_MsLa34BxdN3hGydsPV5s5Hd0R5w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armg0pmkfF+NL1oXgGMZpSr5h8cGfK=_KdnM_75=ijCBzZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQWOsKsr-jBoBp+CW=bkgyUK2y9=ePqrw21HRK8-r8x3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armid=So3gU8NysmENd_MsLa34BxdN3hGydsPV5s5Hd0R5w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaKJ1q2YGxScSXk3+Ug9GUuUwzTCm-FMwJ+cb3absOmEA@mail.gmail.com>

Should we maintain the population level?  Why?   bill w

On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 4:02 PM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Sun, 15 Nov 2020 at 17:47, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > Sex and reproduction are already nearly delinked in Western society.
> The advent of more ways to have sex that do not lead to reproduction does
> not seem like it will have a significant further impact on birth rates.
> > _______________________________________________
>
>
> Both you and Spike think that sex robots will have little effect on
> the birth rate. But even without robots the western birth rate is
> steadily reducing. There are still many abortions at present and the
> estimate is that around half of unplanned pregnancies are aborted, so
> that is a lot of unplanned pregnancies. Apparently quite a lot of
> women using contraceptives still manage to get pregnant.
> I agree that there is probably a minimum birth rate level where there
> will always be some people who want to have children, but that level
> might be below the level required to maintain the population level.
> Another thought is that as sex robots become more capable and have AI
> added (Siri?) they will become companion robots, not just sex dolls.
> And it would be a good idea to supply these advanced sex robots (and
> contraception) free of charge to countries that still have high birth
> rates otherwise their population will outnunber western societies in a
> generation or two.
>
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201115/93091f8e/attachment.htm>

From bronto at pobox.com  Sun Nov 15 23:38:14 2020
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2020 15:38:14 -0800
Subject: [ExI] The Age of Sex Robots
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armg0pmkfF+NL1oXgGMZpSr5h8cGfK=_KdnM_75=ijCBzZg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armg0pmkfF+NL1oXgGMZpSr5h8cGfK=_KdnM_75=ijCBzZg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <881c005e-0974-cac8-c39d-4ea70a41defe@pobox.com>

On 2020-11-15 06:52, BillK via extropy-chat wrote:
> The author considers the problems of using sex robots as misplaced
> human relationships.

See also https://dianaverse.com/2020/10/30/uncanny-vulvas/
(gotta love the title)

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org

From robot at ultimax.com  Mon Nov 16 00:07:35 2020
From: robot at ultimax.com (robot at ultimax.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2020 19:07:35 -0500
Subject: [ExI] how come no one is congratulating John for his crystal ball?
Message-ID: <c0e52302f30fc7eb1be12ab4222e5d0d@ultimax.com>

Looking at the news today, it occurred to me that John Clark's 
prognostications were not far off the mark.  POTUS is refusing to 
concede and inciting followers and not working with the transition team 
for the incoming admin.  Pretty much just like John said.

Also it would seem that the question about whether the Sturgis 
Motorcycle Rally was a super-spreader event has been settled.  (In fact 
I have clients in SD now.)  That COVID sh*t is all over the Upper 
Midwest--they have the highest rates in the country, pretty much.

I've been way too busy to plow thru all these digests, so excuse me if 
these questions are moot.

K3

From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 00:25:24 2020
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 00:25:24 +0000
Subject: [ExI] The Age of Sex Robots
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaKJ1q2YGxScSXk3+Ug9GUuUwzTCm-FMwJ+cb3absOmEA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armg0pmkfF+NL1oXgGMZpSr5h8cGfK=_KdnM_75=ijCBzZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQWOsKsr-jBoBp+CW=bkgyUK2y9=ePqrw21HRK8-r8x3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armid=So3gU8NysmENd_MsLa34BxdN3hGydsPV5s5Hd0R5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaKJ1q2YGxScSXk3+Ug9GUuUwzTCm-FMwJ+cb3absOmEA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjKpGkg2Kd2qtXvsahGCOF5T93u=bz5ghX_VMRosC0SVg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 15 Nov 2020 at 23:19, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Should we maintain the population level?  Why?   bill w
>
> _______________________________________________


There are possible advantages and disadvantages in population decline.
These will vary depending on each country's circumstances.
See: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_decline>



BillK

From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Nov 16 01:10:07 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2020 17:10:07 -0800
Subject: [ExI] how come no one is congratulating John for his crystal
 ball?
In-Reply-To: <c0e52302f30fc7eb1be12ab4222e5d0d@ultimax.com>
References: <c0e52302f30fc7eb1be12ab4222e5d0d@ultimax.com>
Message-ID: <003601d6bbb5$3996b0e0$acc412a0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-

 

>...Also it would seem that the question about whether the Sturgis
Motorcycle Rally was a super-spreader event has been settled.... K3

 

 

Robert do you have an explanation for why the infection rate of the half
million Sturgis attendees was a bit over half that of a randomly-chosen half
million Americans from that week?  We think it was a pre-selection of
healthy people that would account for that rate.  Otherwise we can't explain
why Sturgis was apparently a sub-spreader event.

 

At the same time Sturgis was teeming with out-of-towners, the South Dakota
state fair drew about 200k participants.  The infection rate traceable to
that event was similar to the Sturgis crowd.  

 

Paradoxically, the state university system, also assembling at about that
same time, suffered a higher infection rate.

 

The Sturgis rally, the state fair and the schools reopening happened in
early to mid August.  We can see the later increase in new cases that
correlate with the weather turning cooler, resulting in people going
indoors, where viruses travel best:

 



 

 

.

 

Similar high infection rates are seen in all the cold midwest states.

 

spike

_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201115/9111718a/attachment.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image002.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 27035 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201115/9111718a/attachment.jpg>

From bronto at pobox.com  Mon Nov 16 01:14:09 2020
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2020 17:14:09 -0800
Subject: [ExI] The Age of Sex Robots
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaKJ1q2YGxScSXk3+Ug9GUuUwzTCm-FMwJ+cb3absOmEA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armg0pmkfF+NL1oXgGMZpSr5h8cGfK=_KdnM_75=ijCBzZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQWOsKsr-jBoBp+CW=bkgyUK2y9=ePqrw21HRK8-r8x3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armid=So3gU8NysmENd_MsLa34BxdN3hGydsPV5s5Hd0R5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaKJ1q2YGxScSXk3+Ug9GUuUwzTCm-FMwJ+cb3absOmEA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d2f0fb34-3021-8a48-22fe-6d609a42b318@pobox.com>

On 2020-11-15 15:16, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:
> Should we maintain the population level?? Why?? ?bill w

There is a minimum population without which the web of technology 
(broadly understood) will fail, because it's that complex.

On top of that, more minds means more creativity.

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org



From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Nov 16 01:27:26 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2020 17:27:26 -0800
Subject: [ExI] The Age of Sex Robots
In-Reply-To: <d2f0fb34-3021-8a48-22fe-6d609a42b318@pobox.com>
References: <CAL_armg0pmkfF+NL1oXgGMZpSr5h8cGfK=_KdnM_75=ijCBzZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQWOsKsr-jBoBp+CW=bkgyUK2y9=ePqrw21HRK8-r8x3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armid=So3gU8NysmENd_MsLa34BxdN3hGydsPV5s5Hd0R5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaKJ1q2YGxScSXk3+Ug9GUuUwzTCm-FMwJ+cb3absOmEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <d2f0fb34-3021-8a48-22fe-6d609a42b318@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <004801d6bbb7$a518e610$ef4ab230$@rainier66.com>


>> On Behalf Of Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] The Age of Sex Robots

On 2020-11-15 15:16, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:
>> Should we maintain the population level?  Why?   bill w

>...There is a minimum population without which the web of technology (broadly understood) will fail, because it's that complex.

>...On top of that, more minds means more creativity.

--
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org


_______________________________________________



More minds means more creativity of course, but even with a constant number of minds, more memes means more creativity.  Our ability to educate minds is expanding so rapidly, it is the early days of the second enlightenment, the first of which was a result of the printing press.

spike



From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Nov 16 01:36:46 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2020 17:36:46 -0800
Subject: [ExI] musk does it again
Message-ID: <000201d6bbb8$f2cff5a0$d86fe0e0$@rainier66.com>


SpaceX lifted a crew to the station today.  I spoke to an old friend who grew up on the Space Coast and never left.  He commented at how very different operations are now that a private company is building the rockets rather than NASA.  In the NASA days, they had to spread contracts all over every state which built in inefficiency and drove up costs.  Musk arranged for subcontractors right there in the area around central Florida, which saves money a hundred ways.

Good luck Mr. Musk!

spike



From danust2012 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 02:24:31 2020
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2020 18:24:31 -0800
Subject: [ExI] musk does it again
In-Reply-To: <000201d6bbb8$f2cff5a0$d86fe0e0$@rainier66.com>
References: <000201d6bbb8$f2cff5a0$d86fe0e0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <5908C211-C1E2-4BDF-9E1B-277DC13DAA09@gmail.com>

On Nov 15, 2020, at 5:38 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:?
> 
> SpaceX lifted a crew to the station today.  I spoke to an old friend who grew up on the Space Coast and never left.  He commented at how very different operations are now that a private company is building the rockets rather than NASA.  In the NASA days, they had to spread contracts all over every state which built in inefficiency and drove up costs.  Musk arranged for subcontractors right there in the area around central Florida, which saves money a hundred ways.
> 
> Good luck Mr. Musk!

The old regime was also one of cost-plus contracts, no? Whereas under the COTS and related programs the prices are set.

Regards, 

Dan

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 12:37:53 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 20:37:53 +0800
Subject: [ExI] The Age of Sex Robots
In-Reply-To: <004801d6bbb7$a518e610$ef4ab230$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armg0pmkfF+NL1oXgGMZpSr5h8cGfK=_KdnM_75=ijCBzZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQWOsKsr-jBoBp+CW=bkgyUK2y9=ePqrw21HRK8-r8x3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armid=So3gU8NysmENd_MsLa34BxdN3hGydsPV5s5Hd0R5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaKJ1q2YGxScSXk3+Ug9GUuUwzTCm-FMwJ+cb3absOmEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <d2f0fb34-3021-8a48-22fe-6d609a42b318@pobox.com>
 <004801d6bbb7$a518e610$ef4ab230$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1xDPECYUsr0hNZknGjv7mTWMNADDE+s_PJBAaU2n=-_w@mail.gmail.com>

BillK wrote:
"And it would be a good idea to supply these advanced sex robots (and
contraception) free of charge to countries that still have high birth
rates otherwise their population will outnunber western societies in a
generation or two."

Considering the future probable relatively high cost of sex robots, giving
them away to poor countries as a form of foreign aid to control their
population growth, seems unsound. And in many poor third world nations (I
live in one now as an expat), parents have lots of children as an insurance
policy for their old age. But economy model/relatively low cost sex robots
could be very useful to replace third world human prostitution, and the
immense female degradation which goes along with it.

Spike wrote:
"Plenty of married older men would see it as morally wrong to employ a
harlot (I do consider that very wrong
and have never done it.)  Those same guys might give a robot a whirl for the
same price (I don't see that as a violation of the marriage contract or any
form of adultery, and carries no risk from what I can tell.)"

If the sex robot is basically a mindless amusement park ride, then I can
largely agree. But if it has a fairly sophisticated AI mind, then I view
this as a form of infidelity.

Spike is right that many people will want androids for companionship, and
not only sex. The more advanced and expensive models will provide this
possibility. But a concern I have is that truly sentient sex androids will
be programmed/enslaved to a human master. We will need to figure out how to
deal with this situation. One possibility would be to make all
companionship/sex androids as non-sentient, and to only appear
superficially to be intelligent/self-aware. Or we could have a legal
framework where they are essentially indentured servants for a limited
number of years, and then they are set free, with a government program to
help them become fully independent.

There are currently feminists trying to fight (probably futilely) the
development and production of true sex/companionship androids. They have
already successfully stopped several sex doll "brothels" from being opened
in various big cities. But even if they succeed in the West, they will not
stop the industry in Asia. Despite western female independence in terms of
work, education and sexual choices, I think women are feeling threatened by
what is coming, and how it could affect male choices. We in the west,
currently live in a society where no fault divorce allows women to end the
marriage for simply being bored or to find themselves, even when they have
a caring husband who really tries and children who will suffer from a
divorce. Yes, women should be able to leave a marriage when they so desire,
but divorce courts tend to unfairly hammer men financially, in terms of
over-sized child support payments, alimony, giving the house to the wife,
and pensions and investments getting halved. And sometimes the women get
not half of the couple's wealth, but seventy-five percent.... It can take a
man years to recover financially, and sometimes they never do.

And so due to this divorce rape, that sometimes women do to several men
during their lifetimes, and which greatly enriches them if they married
successful guys, we now have many men who will date and have sex, but
refuse to marry or have kids. Marriage and birth rates in America have
plummeted, due in large part to male wariness of the painful realities of
divorce. Many have seen brothers, fathers, cousins and friends go through
the divorce meat grinder (I sure have). This new male awareness is causing
many American women to bitterly complain that they can't find a good man to
marry and have a family with, now that they are ready to settle down.

When the sex/companionship robot market matures, men will have the option
to turn away temporarily or permanently from biological women, to instead
have an almost supernaturally beautiful female in their home, with a face
and figure they might have only dreamed of having with a real woman. And
her abilities to physically pleasure a man may be far in excess to what a
regular flesh and blood female can do. With AI, she will be capable of very
intelligent conversations, and will be able to express emotions and
passion, even if it is "programmed." Will it be as satisfying as a happy
and healthy relationship with a real woman? I doubt it. But considering how
many men are stuck in unpleasant to painful relationships with the modern
day fair sex, it may be seen as a real alternative to consider. And of
course there will be gay men who view a male sex robot in the same way.

Yes, a man could have female sex robots at home, but then again, the flesh
and blood women he dates may not appreciate that fact, and view him as a
lesser man for it. How this develops over time culturally will be
interesting. I suspect women will view such machines as competition. And in
fact, basically already do.

What will be extremely interesting is when companionship robots get so
sophisticated that they have artificial wombs, and can actually bear a
child. And so a human would find a flesh and blood woman to provide an egg,
and that egg would be put within the android. The fertilization could
happen within or outside the robot. But I suspect many men would want to
fertilize the egg the old fashioned way, with their android partner. We
will see titles in bookshops like, "My Mother Was A Companionship Android:
And I Could Not Have Asked For A More Caring Parent."

Obviously, nothing stops women from having male or female sex/companionship
androids. The classic science fiction novel by Tanith Lee, The Silver Metal
Lover, comes to mind. And both men and women will be able to customize the
bodies, minds and personalities of their artificial paramours, to try to
achieve a level of happiness and bonding that may be highly unusual in
flesh and blood couples. We will see...

John
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201116/6d38e881/attachment-0001.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 12:57:59 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 20:57:59 +0800
Subject: [ExI] put up with me
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaEif1e_1wWem+5-J2WTdNm8Ns5JZMZ37hmWv62TFEJSQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20201114110235.Horde.IqUBUWiy8u8AusSeCk87WpB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAO+xQEaEif1e_1wWem+5-J2WTdNm8Ns5JZMZ37hmWv62TFEJSQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy276wa8aMwkqoi-EvVmFQOgSg9erRbOHMVZKOZDXVgaDg@mail.gmail.com>

Stuart LaForge wrote:
"I am glad you are still around, but no dice on the yacht. If I had the
money for a yacht, then funding cardiac stem-cell research would
probably be a better investment anyway. :-)"

Stuart, what you wrote here made me think of my/our dead friend, Robert
Bradbury. I recall how he was a scientist/entrepreneur who created a
company to develop carbon nanotubes. But he was supposedly too ahead of his
time, and lost his financial nest egg/fortune, despite his labor of love. I
enjoyed the time I spent in Spike's backyard, listening to Robert talk
about his plans. I really miss the guy, and considering how I am in
American expat in the Philippines, and his own interest in foreign women, I
wish he were still around for me to talk to... If he had only lived, I bet
Robert would have accomplished alot by now. Well, at least he was
cryonically suspended.

John

On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 4:49 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Stuart, when I was tested this summer, it came as a complete surprise that
> the results showed that I had had a heart attack.  The catheter showed no
> blockages etc. so that's out for a reason.  The beta blocker is for heart
> speed.  My usual was around 90 and now it's around 60 - much less strain on
> the heart.
>
> The statin has reduced the LDL to 49, so the total is 115 or so.  I did
> read that lowering it even in people like me whose total before the statin
> was 170, helped in the morbidity department, and even though I have ranted
> about statins in past posts, I have no side effects.  I will be asking
> about lowering the BP meds.  Entresto, a new drug, really causes shortness
> of breath rather severely, in addition to dizziness.  I am being extremely
> careful not to fall.
>
> I have never had any chest pains.  Did you get any use out of that book I
> sent to you?   bill w
>
> On Sat, Nov 14, 2020 at 1:04 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> Quoting Bill Wallace:
>>
>> > FYI - my cholesterol was 170 - optimal - LDL 104. Optimal.  But last
>> week,
>> > in reviewing my stance on statins, I ran across a finding that statins
>> > helped in heart cases even though your cholesterol was normal.
>> Yesterday
>> > they ran it, and LDL was 49!! - total 104.
>>
>> Those numbers are really good. Was this your first heart attack?
>>
>> > I have no idea where we go from here.  We don't know, and maybe won't
>> know
>> > what caused the heart attack, but I have avoided surgery, stents, etc.
>> Now
>> > if I can just walk 100 feet without feeling out of breath......
>>
>> Were the beta-blockers solely for high blood pressure? If there was no
>> arterial plaque, then it could be coronary artery spasms
>>
>>
>> https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/angina/expert-answers/coronary-artery-spasm/faq-20058316
>>
>> or MINOCA.
>>
>> https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/circulationaha.117.027666
>>
>> > Thanks for caring
>>
>> I am glad you are still around, but no dice on the yacht. If I had the
>> money for a yacht, then funding cardiac stem-cell research would
>> probably be a better investment anyway. :-)
>>
>> Stuart LaForge
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201116/faec5c97/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 13:05:14 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 21:05:14 +0800
Subject: [ExI] internet at sea: was RE: put up with me
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbxXUB3PpKr0LRYkhTUtNMCDKdZZoxEkXvAkpz1dzp=hQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <011e01d6b9e4$572e1c10$058a5430$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZh0Ddp2Y=rd13ZHuoNVjyHodgfJzi7_G+H-QA6KzvEkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <006d01d6b9ef$a8d14e60$fa73eb20$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbxXUB3PpKr0LRYkhTUtNMCDKdZZoxEkXvAkpz1dzp=hQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3BmVnVWu8M1yJmpS6tv8Viipw6FFKramG95-2a7dhS0Q@mail.gmail.com>

Bill w wrote:
"Name escapes me, but the guy who played Perry Mason bought an island.  I
wonder what he did there?"


As long as he did not hunt and kill shipwrecked sailors, I really do not
care! Lol

John  ;  )

On Sat, Nov 14, 2020 at 3:40 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I think that when he played Ironside they let him open up a bit.  I do
> remember his smiling.  bill w
>
> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 1:20 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
>> Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] internet at sea: was RE: put up with me
>>
>>
>>
>> Name escapes me, but the guy who played Perry Mason?
>>
>>
>>
>> Raymond Burr.
>>
>>
>>
>> >?bought an island.  I wonder what he did there?  bill w
>>
>>
>>
>> What plays there stays there.
>>
>>
>>
>> Try to imagine Perry Mason, who never cracked a smile on the show the
>> entire time, cutting up and having a hot tub party with two or three nekkid
>> drunken trollops.  The mind boggles.
>>
>>
>>
>> spike
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201116/42c4002e/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 13:08:03 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 21:08:03 +0800
Subject: [ExI] inner talk; idle curiosity
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYzMcD1QLGcwC68ze074dTKM3hqb6Bqa=EadVrq-fFrew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYzMcD1QLGcwC68ze074dTKM3hqb6Bqa=EadVrq-fFrew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy0RfQ0DYNavhA9S9BqoP-+kku7dXayr=h9GvCAk5HGDQA@mail.gmail.com>

I generally talk to myself when dealing with an interpersonal problem with
another human being. I do sort of a mental simulation of what I might say
in the future to them. Or I vent and state things I would never dare in
real life! Lol

John

On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 2:59 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> If I had been asked if everyone talked to themselves, had images of what
> they were reading , and so on, I would have thought:  don't most people.
> Answer: No.  So, on a gloomy day I just thought I'd ask:
>
> Do you talk to yourself when you are doing mathematics, solving an
> engineering problem, perhaps?
>
> How about when you are composing an email or some other written piece?
>
> Do you listen to music in your head?  Even compose it?
>
> Do you imagine the feel of some object, skin, fabric, tree bark when you
> see it?  You may be surprised at some of these questions , but not all
> people do these things.
>
> Any response you make is normal.  I think.
>
> bill w
>
> bill w
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201116/e489c01c/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 13:57:39 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 21:57:39 +0800
Subject: [ExI] put pain
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbP2RHDBZC_ksNymqD-6BBj7KsHnsvFE6uWLbuayf1_5Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbP2RHDBZC_ksNymqD-6BBj7KsHnsvFE6uWLbuayf1_5Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy0a1mPKgxu_H7hi_s9JR9_ayFmWEJD=NjEKsL-WuZ=J3A@mail.gmail.com>

In the classic near future thriller/borderline sf novel, The Profession, by
Steven Pressfield, a former USMC lieutenant general war hero who is sort of
an evil version of Douglas MacArthur (he successfully forced a CCP
expeditionary force in Africa to retreat and go home, but nearly started a
nuclear war, and so the current president fires him, but he returns to
America and receives a hero's welcome), becomes president during very hard
economic and foreign policy times for America. This is a man who had worked
with the intelligence agencies, and has no qualms about killing enemies,
foreign and domestic. He has his loyal henchman (assassins and special
forces) kill off key senators, congressmen and journalists. They all look
like accidents. The country senses something is up, but this man actually
does turn the nation around. He gets the economy going, in part by
intimidating the billionaire class, and getting them to invest in the
economy rather than off-shoring money, and also to pay much higher taxes.
All it takes is secretly kidnapping key members of their class and then
threatening their lives! Well over half the nation adores this president,
despite some elements of the "liberal media" being very worried about him.
But in the end, karma catches up to the man in a Shakespearean way. Donald
Trump could only dream in his most fervent power mad fantasies to be at
this villain's level. I worry that one day we will actually elect someone
with such monstrous talents who will be very hard to stop. Pressfield is
one of America's finest writers, and his book about ancient Sparta, The
Gates of Fire, is required reading at all of the military academies.

John



On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 11:38 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> The idea that Trump (and this is here because it is not controversial)
> could pull a coup is an idea that the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of
> STaff, Gen. Mark MIlley has put paid to.
>
> He said that the military does not take an oath to individuals but to the
> Constitution.  Surely you have seen this story.
>
> So what happens at the D of Defense is irrelevant.  They cannot order the
> military to contravene the Constitution.
>
> Worry gone, over, done with, put paid to.
>
> Now can we worry about something else?
>
> bill w
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201116/6b7833c3/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 14:19:33 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 22:19:33 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: year round school
In-Reply-To: <002601d6ba91$4321c840$c96558c0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CACB7g275Kx3Pm6A67Eqbusa5XuG_5rmNbsD4jO=NUM==htvnqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <33F64001-B2ED-44A0-9446-64BC456B5F01@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <002001d6ba8b$f6a669d0$e3f33d70$@rainier66.com>
 <002601d6ba91$4321c840$c96558c0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1zXRmfRGdcJN_j530i6sFdZiySdPMOhCRkvmLsSV3Vmw@mail.gmail.com>

 Bill W wrote:
"Just wondering on a different subject:  how many high school grads read
books like those they studied in Western literature?  Maube more than those
that use algebra, but I'll bet it's not many.  the average American reads
one book a year.  Which means, of course, that quite a large percentage
read no books at all. (Here is a good case for using the median, not the
mean - put a lot of zeros in the equation and it skews the mean).

Intellectuals plan curricula.  Maybe they should have some blue collar
workers on those committees to bring a tint of reality to the
requirements.  Home Ec - how to raise children - home finances - religion -
civics - courses everyone needs and no one gets."

I find it hard to believe that  the average American only reads one book a
year, especially considering all the books that are sold annually. Even the
less educated/cultured folks I know, still read at least 2 or 3 books a
year, usually horror, romance or thrillers.

Yes, it would be nice if every public high school taught home finance,
civics, home ec and auto shop. My highschool had long since phased out auto
shop and teaching driver's education, by the time I got there. But keep in
mind that even music departments at public schools are often seen as
expendable.

I never received the "good at math genes" despite coming from a family of
nothing but engineers, on my father's side of the family. I have an uncle
who was actually inducted into the IBM Engineering Hall of Fame! But I have
never met him. I recall taking an algebra class in college, which started
at 7am and I am not a morning person... Lol And on top of that, the
instructor talked at auctioneer speeds! We would shout, "slow down," she
should apologize, and then a few minutes later be back again at oral warp
speed 9.

John


On Sat, Nov 14, 2020 at 10:22 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com>
>
> >...I am lucky to know the kind of students who make stepping stones out
> of stumbling blocks.  But I see plenty of students who find ways to turn
> stepping stones into stumbling blocks.  Some step up, some fall down.
>  spike
>
>
> As with any new technology being used by a lotta people, new and fun ways
> to do things are discovered.  Online learning using Zoom is a great
> example.  Google classroom is even better in some ways, but I know more
> about Zoom, so this essay is mostly about that platform.
>
> I mentioned in an earlier commentary that in current public schools,
> students are required to attend (so their cameras must be on and the
> student must appear in the field of view to verify presence) but are not
> actually required to participate in order to get a passing grade.  The
> students can sign up to be graded on a pass/fail basis this year.  If a
> student is satisfied with her GPA, there is no compelling reason to not use
> P/F grading, ja?  Some go into this year with a 4.0, clearly no way to
> improve, plenty of ways to fumble, take the safe P which does not calculate
> into GPA.
>
> Zoom has a background feature where it somehow does face recognition and
> shows only the face.  This feature works, even if the camera can only see
> the top of the head (anyone here know how the heck that works (I can report
> that it does work well.))  With background running, you can't tell where
> the student is located.  My son went to a dentist appointment yesterday,
> took his ChromeBook with him with Zoom running, attended class on the trip
> over, during the preliminaries at the office and kept the camera running
> right up until the dentist arrived.  Cameras can be turned off temporarily
> (which is a good thing (a most advisable thing in some circumstances (if
> one is a news commentator for instance in a meeting with colleagues.)))
> The teacher and classmates couldn't even tell he was away from his desk.
>
> Some use a phone to attend meetings, or go somewhere.  Usually you can
> tell when someone is walking.  If they don't have backgrounder on, then one
> can see trees passing by, dead giveaway, but more common is that the person
> appears to be looking up at about pi/4 radians, and rocking left and
> right.  She's walking, not in class.
>
> The camera and screen are usually two separate things, and need not be in
> the same direction.  A Zoom meeting can show the participant in side view
> for instance, and some do.  Often the camera is the phone, so she can take
> it into the bathroom, on mute so the meeting people cannot hear the flush
> (and some do (it is hard to tell when someone does that (if they know how
> to use their phones correctly.)))
>
> One of my son's classes requires two separate devices, each with a camera,
> to take tests.  Reasoning: their school-issued ChromeBook has a camera, but
> a second camera is required to watch the test space and verify the student
> isn't cheating.  The test question goes up on the ChromeBook screen, the
> second device watches everything.  The process works.
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201116/190bdb25/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 14:22:14 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 22:22:14 +0800
Subject: [ExI] British government commissions SBSP report
In-Reply-To: <247043905.9664686.1605365629637@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <247043905.9664686.1605365629637.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <247043905.9664686.1605365629637@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy2enL9deWmf036wABuNDKD0Y+N5_hZg1Srxg+idDQreBQ@mail.gmail.com>

Could Britain actually afford such an expensive space venture? I thought
such projects were beyond their economic limits, despite having the
technical know-how.

John

On Sat, Nov 14, 2020 at 10:56 PM Tom Nowell via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> In today's news that doesn't concern covid, brexit or political
> infighting, the UK government issued a press release today about space
> based solar power.
>
> UK government commissions space solar power stations research
> <https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-government-commissions-space-solar-power-stations-research>
>
> UK government commissions space solar power stations research
>
> Solar energy harvested in space offers the potential for an unlimited and
> constant zero carbon power source
>
> <https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-government-commissions-space-solar-power-stations-research>
>
>
>
> The UK government has commissioned new research into space-based solar
> power (SBSP) systems that would use very large solar power satellites to
> collect solar energy, convert it into high-frequency radio waves, and
> safely beam it back to ground-based receivers connected to the electrical
> power grid.
>
> It is an idea first conjured by science-fiction writer Isaac Asimov in
> 1941, and is now being studied by several nations because the lightweight
> solar panels and wireless power transmission technology is advancing
> rapidly. This, together with lower cost commercial space launch, may make
> the concept of solar power satellites more feasible and economically viable.
>
> Now the UK in 2020 will explore whether this renewable technology could
> offer a resilient, safe and sustainable energy source.
>
> The study, led by Frazer-Nash Consultancy, will consider the engineering
> and economics of such a system ? whether it could deliver affordable energy
> for consumers, and the engineering and technology that would be required to
> build it. One of the biggest issues to overcome is assembling the massive
> satellites in orbit, which has not been done before at this scale.
>
> Dr Graham Turnock, Chief Executive of the UK Space Agency, said:
>
> The Sun never sets in space, so a space solar power system could supply
> renewable energy to anywhere on the planet, day or night, rain or shine. It
> is an idea that has existed for decades, but has always felt decades away.
>
> The UK is growing its status as a global player in space and we have bold
> plans to launch small satellites in the coming years. Space solar could be
> another string to our bow, and this study will help establish whether it is
> right for the UK.
>
> Historically, the cost of rocket launches and the weight that would be
> required for a project of this scale made the idea of space-based solar
> power unfeasible. But the emergence of privately-led space ventures has
> brought the cost of launch down dramatically in the last decade.
>
> Martin Soltau, Space Business Manager at Frazer-Nash outlined what the
> study will involve:
>
> Decarbonising our economy is vital. We need to explore new technologies to
> provide clean, affordable, secure and dependable energy for the nation.
> SBSP has the potential to contribute substantially to UK energy generation,
> and offers many benefits if it can be made practical and affordable.
>
> Frazer-Nash is studying the leading international solar power satellite
> designs, and we will be drawing up the engineering plan to deploy an
> operational SBSP system by 2050. We are forming an expert panel, comprised
> of leading SBSP experts and space and energy organisations, to gain a range
> of industry views.
>
> We will compare SBSP alongside other forms of renewable energy, to see how
> it would contribute as part of a future mix of clean energy technologies.
>
> We have also partnered with Oxford Economics, who have significant
> experience in the space sector and who will provide additional insight to
> the economic assessment of the system, and the benefit to the UK economy.
>
> As the effects of climate change become more pronounced, prominent
> research institutions and government agencies are focusing new money and
> attention on novel approaches to reduce global warming.
>
> In 2019, Britain passed an important milestone, with more electricity
> generated from sources like wind, solar and nuclear power, that produce
> almost no carbon dioxide emissions, than from carbon-emitting fuels like
> natural gas and coal.
>
> According to the World Resources Institute ? a Washington-based non-profit
> that tracks climate change ? Britain has reduced carbon dioxide generated
> in the country by about 40 per cent, which is more than any other major
> industrialised country.
>
> As the National Space Council sets a new direction for our space policy,
> the UK Space Agency is committed to understanding the future opportunities
> space technologies open up.
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201116/f7c87719/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 14:24:30 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 22:24:30 +0800
Subject: [ExI] AI detects conspiracy theories
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYR70QNob_kC6xYsoGNh1npE+Hyjf2HROSypWwhpwyRLg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYR70QNob_kC6xYsoGNh1npE+Hyjf2HROSypWwhpwyRLg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy2AJ51CtHxk=xUYVdqunBjogPryX0q6AjkxHVmrtSmhhg@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not sure if the real powers that be would want such an AI tool in the
hands of the public...

Cue X-Files music...

John  :  I

On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 11:50 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> https://theconversation.com/an-ai-tool-can-distinguish-between-a-conspiracy-theory-and-a-true-conspiracy-it-comes-down-to-how-easily-the-story-falls-apart-146282?
> <https://theconversation.com/an-ai-tool-can-distinguish-between-a-conspiracy-theory-and-a-true-conspiracy-it-comes-down-to-how-easily-the-story-falls-apart-146282?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Latest%20from%20The%20Conversation%20for%20November%2013%202020%20-%201785417324&utm_content=Latest%20from%20The%20Conversation%20for%20November%2013%202020%20-%201785417324+CID_fd64476abae33be62b8d5e1af3804ea2&utm_source=campaign_monitor_us&utm_term=An%20AI%20tool%20can%20distinguish%20between%20a%20conspiracy%20theory%20and%20a%20true%20conspiracy%20%20it%20comes%20down%20to%20how%20easily%20the%20story%20falls%20apart>
>
> bill w
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201116/75675df4/attachment.htm>

From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 16:40:11 2020
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 08:40:11 -0800
Subject: [ExI] British government commissions SBSP report
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy2enL9deWmf036wABuNDKD0Y+N5_hZg1Srxg+idDQreBQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <247043905.9664686.1605365629637.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <247043905.9664686.1605365629637@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAGSKFy2enL9deWmf036wABuNDKD0Y+N5_hZg1Srxg+idDQreBQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRE4tfXNyE6PP459dsth96AY7VAoNy7TLEoQg2jsU60Mg@mail.gmail.com>

Hopefully they will also examine the lunar-sourced option, which might be
within their budget.

On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 6:22 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Could Britain actually afford such an expensive space venture? I thought
> such projects were beyond their economic limits, despite having the
> technical know-how.
>
> John
>
> On Sat, Nov 14, 2020 at 10:56 PM Tom Nowell via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> In today's news that doesn't concern covid, brexit or political
>> infighting, the UK government issued a press release today about space
>> based solar power.
>>
>> UK government commissions space solar power stations research
>> <https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-government-commissions-space-solar-power-stations-research>
>>
>> UK government commissions space solar power stations research
>>
>> Solar energy harvested in space offers the potential for an unlimited and
>> constant zero carbon power source
>>
>> <https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-government-commissions-space-solar-power-stations-research>
>>
>>
>>
>> The UK government has commissioned new research into space-based solar
>> power (SBSP) systems that would use very large solar power satellites to
>> collect solar energy, convert it into high-frequency radio waves, and
>> safely beam it back to ground-based receivers connected to the electrical
>> power grid.
>>
>> It is an idea first conjured by science-fiction writer Isaac Asimov in
>> 1941, and is now being studied by several nations because the lightweight
>> solar panels and wireless power transmission technology is advancing
>> rapidly. This, together with lower cost commercial space launch, may make
>> the concept of solar power satellites more feasible and economically viable.
>>
>> Now the UK in 2020 will explore whether this renewable technology could
>> offer a resilient, safe and sustainable energy source.
>>
>> The study, led by Frazer-Nash Consultancy, will consider the engineering
>> and economics of such a system ? whether it could deliver affordable energy
>> for consumers, and the engineering and technology that would be required to
>> build it. One of the biggest issues to overcome is assembling the massive
>> satellites in orbit, which has not been done before at this scale.
>>
>> Dr Graham Turnock, Chief Executive of the UK Space Agency, said:
>>
>> The Sun never sets in space, so a space solar power system could supply
>> renewable energy to anywhere on the planet, day or night, rain or shine. It
>> is an idea that has existed for decades, but has always felt decades away.
>>
>> The UK is growing its status as a global player in space and we have bold
>> plans to launch small satellites in the coming years. Space solar could be
>> another string to our bow, and this study will help establish whether it is
>> right for the UK.
>>
>> Historically, the cost of rocket launches and the weight that would be
>> required for a project of this scale made the idea of space-based solar
>> power unfeasible. But the emergence of privately-led space ventures has
>> brought the cost of launch down dramatically in the last decade.
>>
>> Martin Soltau, Space Business Manager at Frazer-Nash outlined what the
>> study will involve:
>>
>> Decarbonising our economy is vital. We need to explore new technologies
>> to provide clean, affordable, secure and dependable energy for the nation.
>> SBSP has the potential to contribute substantially to UK energy generation,
>> and offers many benefits if it can be made practical and affordable.
>>
>> Frazer-Nash is studying the leading international solar power satellite
>> designs, and we will be drawing up the engineering plan to deploy an
>> operational SBSP system by 2050. We are forming an expert panel, comprised
>> of leading SBSP experts and space and energy organisations, to gain a range
>> of industry views.
>>
>> We will compare SBSP alongside other forms of renewable energy, to see
>> how it would contribute as part of a future mix of clean energy
>> technologies.
>>
>> We have also partnered with Oxford Economics, who have significant
>> experience in the space sector and who will provide additional insight to
>> the economic assessment of the system, and the benefit to the UK economy.
>>
>> As the effects of climate change become more pronounced, prominent
>> research institutions and government agencies are focusing new money and
>> attention on novel approaches to reduce global warming.
>>
>> In 2019, Britain passed an important milestone, with more electricity
>> generated from sources like wind, solar and nuclear power, that produce
>> almost no carbon dioxide emissions, than from carbon-emitting fuels like
>> natural gas and coal.
>>
>> According to the World Resources Institute ? a Washington-based
>> non-profit that tracks climate change ? Britain has reduced carbon dioxide
>> generated in the country by about 40 per cent, which is more than any other
>> major industrialised country.
>>
>> As the National Space Council sets a new direction for our space policy,
>> the UK Space Agency is committed to understanding the future opportunities
>> space technologies open up.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201116/5f1650c0/attachment-0001.htm>

From giulio at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 16:44:34 2020
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 17:44:34 +0100
Subject: [ExI] British government commissions SBSP report
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRE4tfXNyE6PP459dsth96AY7VAoNy7TLEoQg2jsU60Mg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <247043905.9664686.1605365629637.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <247043905.9664686.1605365629637@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAGSKFy2enL9deWmf036wABuNDKD0Y+N5_hZg1Srxg+idDQreBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRE4tfXNyE6PP459dsth96AY7VAoNy7TLEoQg2jsU60Mg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJydP01gQMWLLvTwD0w=CaZKqEpmpY=w40zuu4iCMuX6nig@mail.gmail.com>

On 2020. Nov 16., Mon at 17:41, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Hopefully they will also examine the lunar-sourced option, which might be
> within their budget.
>

You mean collecting solar power on the Moon and beaming it to Earth?


> On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 6:22 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Could Britain actually afford such an expensive space venture? I thought
>> such projects were beyond their economic limits, despite having the
>> technical know-how.
>>
>> John
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 14, 2020 at 10:56 PM Tom Nowell via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> In today's news that doesn't concern covid, brexit or political
>>> infighting, the UK government issued a press release today about space
>>> based solar power.
>>>
>>> UK government commissions space solar power stations research
>>> <https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-government-commissions-space-solar-power-stations-research>
>>>
>>> UK government commissions space solar power stations research
>>>
>>> Solar energy harvested in space offers the potential for an unlimited
>>> and constant zero carbon power source
>>>
>>> <https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-government-commissions-space-solar-power-stations-research>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The UK government has commissioned new research into space-based solar
>>> power (SBSP) systems that would use very large solar power satellites to
>>> collect solar energy, convert it into high-frequency radio waves, and
>>> safely beam it back to ground-based receivers connected to the electrical
>>> power grid.
>>>
>>> It is an idea first conjured by science-fiction writer Isaac Asimov in
>>> 1941, and is now being studied by several nations because the lightweight
>>> solar panels and wireless power transmission technology is advancing
>>> rapidly. This, together with lower cost commercial space launch, may make
>>> the concept of solar power satellites more feasible and economically viable.
>>>
>>> Now the UK in 2020 will explore whether this renewable technology could
>>> offer a resilient, safe and sustainable energy source.
>>>
>>> The study, led by Frazer-Nash Consultancy, will consider the engineering
>>> and economics of such a system ? whether it could deliver affordable energy
>>> for consumers, and the engineering and technology that would be required to
>>> build it. One of the biggest issues to overcome is assembling the massive
>>> satellites in orbit, which has not been done before at this scale.
>>>
>>> Dr Graham Turnock, Chief Executive of the UK Space Agency, said:
>>>
>>> The Sun never sets in space, so a space solar power system could supply
>>> renewable energy to anywhere on the planet, day or night, rain or shine. It
>>> is an idea that has existed for decades, but has always felt decades away.
>>>
>>> The UK is growing its status as a global player in space and we have
>>> bold plans to launch small satellites in the coming years. Space solar
>>> could be another string to our bow, and this study will help establish
>>> whether it is right for the UK.
>>>
>>> Historically, the cost of rocket launches and the weight that would be
>>> required for a project of this scale made the idea of space-based solar
>>> power unfeasible. But the emergence of privately-led space ventures has
>>> brought the cost of launch down dramatically in the last decade.
>>>
>>> Martin Soltau, Space Business Manager at Frazer-Nash outlined what the
>>> study will involve:
>>>
>>> Decarbonising our economy is vital. We need to explore new technologies
>>> to provide clean, affordable, secure and dependable energy for the nation.
>>> SBSP has the potential to contribute substantially to UK energy generation,
>>> and offers many benefits if it can be made practical and affordable.
>>>
>>> Frazer-Nash is studying the leading international solar power satellite
>>> designs, and we will be drawing up the engineering plan to deploy an
>>> operational SBSP system by 2050. We are forming an expert panel, comprised
>>> of leading SBSP experts and space and energy organisations, to gain a range
>>> of industry views.
>>>
>>> We will compare SBSP alongside other forms of renewable energy, to see
>>> how it would contribute as part of a future mix of clean energy
>>> technologies.
>>>
>>> We have also partnered with Oxford Economics, who have significant
>>> experience in the space sector and who will provide additional insight to
>>> the economic assessment of the system, and the benefit to the UK economy.
>>>
>>> As the effects of climate change become more pronounced, prominent
>>> research institutions and government agencies are focusing new money and
>>> attention on novel approaches to reduce global warming.
>>>
>>> In 2019, Britain passed an important milestone, with more electricity
>>> generated from sources like wind, solar and nuclear power, that produce
>>> almost no carbon dioxide emissions, than from carbon-emitting fuels like
>>> natural gas and coal.
>>>
>>> According to the World Resources Institute ? a Washington-based
>>> non-profit that tracks climate change ? Britain has reduced carbon dioxide
>>> generated in the country by about 40 per cent, which is more than any other
>>> major industrialised country.
>>>
>>> As the National Space Council sets a new direction for our space policy,
>>> the UK Space Agency is committed to understanding the future opportunities
>>> space technologies open up.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201116/99fa6dda/attachment.htm>

From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 16:47:20 2020
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 08:47:20 -0800
Subject: [ExI] put pain
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy0a1mPKgxu_H7hi_s9JR9_ayFmWEJD=NjEKsL-WuZ=J3A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbP2RHDBZC_ksNymqD-6BBj7KsHnsvFE6uWLbuayf1_5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy0a1mPKgxu_H7hi_s9JR9_ayFmWEJD=NjEKsL-WuZ=J3A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTkGGfsh6rb=R8s1tzWo=5Q5e3mzHiL7mjzBPotJpzxUA@mail.gmail.com>

In real life, "evil" and "competent" like that do not go hand in hand.
Putin is the best known modern example of someone trying to be both, and
Russia's been having some problems during his reign.  North Korea is a
better example of what happens when someone tries such methods for a while.

On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 5:53 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> In the classic near future thriller/borderline sf novel, The Profession,
> by Steven Pressfield, a former USMC lieutenant general war hero who is sort
> of an evil version of Douglas MacArthur (he successfully forced a CCP
> expeditionary force in Africa to retreat and go home, but nearly started a
> nuclear war, and so the current president fires him, but he returns to
> America and receives a hero's welcome), becomes president during very hard
> economic and foreign policy times for America. This is a man who had worked
> with the intelligence agencies, and has no qualms about killing enemies,
> foreign and domestic. He has his loyal henchman (assassins and special
> forces) kill off key senators, congressmen and journalists. They all look
> like accidents. The country senses something is up, but this man actually
> does turn the nation around. He gets the economy going, in part by
> intimidating the billionaire class, and getting them to invest in the
> economy rather than off-shoring money, and also to pay much higher taxes.
> All it takes is secretly kidnapping key members of their class and then
> threatening their lives! Well over half the nation adores this president,
> despite some elements of the "liberal media" being very worried about him.
> But in the end, karma catches up to the man in a Shakespearean way. Donald
> Trump could only dream in his most fervent power mad fantasies to be at
> this villain's level. I worry that one day we will actually elect someone
> with such monstrous talents who will be very hard to stop. Pressfield is
> one of America's finest writers, and his book about ancient Sparta, The
> Gates of Fire, is required reading at all of the military academies.
>
> John
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 11:38 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> The idea that Trump (and this is here because it is not controversial)
>> could pull a coup is an idea that the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of
>> STaff, Gen. Mark MIlley has put paid to.
>>
>> He said that the military does not take an oath to individuals but to the
>> Constitution.  Surely you have seen this story.
>>
>> So what happens at the D of Defense is irrelevant.  They cannot order the
>> military to contravene the Constitution.
>>
>> Worry gone, over, done with, put paid to.
>>
>> Now can we worry about something else?
>>
>> bill w
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201116/2f7bfe9d/attachment.htm>

From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 16:58:01 2020
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 08:58:01 -0800
Subject: [ExI] The Age of Sex Robots
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy1xDPECYUsr0hNZknGjv7mTWMNADDE+s_PJBAaU2n=-_w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armg0pmkfF+NL1oXgGMZpSr5h8cGfK=_KdnM_75=ijCBzZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQWOsKsr-jBoBp+CW=bkgyUK2y9=ePqrw21HRK8-r8x3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armid=So3gU8NysmENd_MsLa34BxdN3hGydsPV5s5Hd0R5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaKJ1q2YGxScSXk3+Ug9GUuUwzTCm-FMwJ+cb3absOmEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <d2f0fb34-3021-8a48-22fe-6d609a42b318@pobox.com>
 <004801d6bbb7$a518e610$ef4ab230$@rainier66.com>
 <CAGSKFy1xDPECYUsr0hNZknGjv7mTWMNADDE+s_PJBAaU2n=-_w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSiDOLzBkC6RHg2VTEPqjK5J+9ziVFOqXF3xnCPkn2cxw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 4:33 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> BillK wrote:
> "And it would be a good idea to supply these advanced sex robots (and
> contraception) free of charge to countries that still have high birth
> rates otherwise their population will outnunber western societies in a
> generation or two."
>
> Considering the future probable relatively high cost of sex robots, giving
> them away to poor countries as a form of foreign aid to control their
> population growth, seems unsound.
>

Further, if this was done, the robots wouldn't be used for sex (much if at
all).  Rather, they would be scrapped and their components sold for pennies
on the dollar.  (Dollars of foreign aid, pennies into the pockets of actual
ordinary people there.  That's what happens when you drop anything that
doesn't immediately help with personal survival into areas of crushing
poverty.)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201116/c8b6fe0f/attachment.htm>

From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 16:58:57 2020
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 08:58:57 -0800
Subject: [ExI] British government commissions SBSP report
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJydP01gQMWLLvTwD0w=CaZKqEpmpY=w40zuu4iCMuX6nig@mail.gmail.com>
References: <247043905.9664686.1605365629637.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <247043905.9664686.1605365629637@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAGSKFy2enL9deWmf036wABuNDKD0Y+N5_hZg1Srxg+idDQreBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRE4tfXNyE6PP459dsth96AY7VAoNy7TLEoQg2jsU60Mg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJydP01gQMWLLvTwD0w=CaZKqEpmpY=w40zuu4iCMuX6nig@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTk+qRJ6iMG-yWyZezNw+ZZBo_74H_fy+dEbgLXe-afxg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 8:53 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On 2020. Nov 16., Mon at 17:41, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Hopefully they will also examine the lunar-sourced option, which might be
>> within their budget.
>>
>
> You mean collecting solar power on the Moon and beaming it to Earth?
>

That, or building solar power satellites on the Moon and launching them to
Earth orbit.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201116/eecf3abf/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 17:43:25 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 11:43:25 -0600
Subject: [ExI] put pain
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTkGGfsh6rb=R8s1tzWo=5Q5e3mzHiL7mjzBPotJpzxUA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbP2RHDBZC_ksNymqD-6BBj7KsHnsvFE6uWLbuayf1_5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy0a1mPKgxu_H7hi_s9JR9_ayFmWEJD=NjEKsL-WuZ=J3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTkGGfsh6rb=R8s1tzWo=5Q5e3mzHiL7mjzBPotJpzxUA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaQ4GrfX2xQ1w=+K7ZU2DpL3L6fb-OkYZEShhT-Na+GVg@mail.gmail.com>

All North Korea has to do is look South to see that their government's
doings are a total failure.  People starving, people trying to leave the
country, etc.  So why don't they change?  It has to be because they are not
interested in change or in their country's food problems.  They are
interested in saber-rattling, not competence. Competence counts only in
something the military is doing, not the economy.  So who is it that
doesn't care?  Psychopaths.  If they had consciences they would change, eh?

bill w

On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 10:59 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> In real life, "evil" and "competent" like that do not go hand in hand.
> Putin is the best known modern example of someone trying to be both, and
> Russia's been having some problems during his reign.  North Korea is a
> better example of what happens when someone tries such methods for a while.
>
> On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 5:53 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> In the classic near future thriller/borderline sf novel, The Profession,
>> by Steven Pressfield, a former USMC lieutenant general war hero who is sort
>> of an evil version of Douglas MacArthur (he successfully forced a CCP
>> expeditionary force in Africa to retreat and go home, but nearly started a
>> nuclear war, and so the current president fires him, but he returns to
>> America and receives a hero's welcome), becomes president during very hard
>> economic and foreign policy times for America. This is a man who had worked
>> with the intelligence agencies, and has no qualms about killing enemies,
>> foreign and domestic. He has his loyal henchman (assassins and special
>> forces) kill off key senators, congressmen and journalists. They all look
>> like accidents. The country senses something is up, but this man actually
>> does turn the nation around. He gets the economy going, in part by
>> intimidating the billionaire class, and getting them to invest in the
>> economy rather than off-shoring money, and also to pay much higher taxes.
>> All it takes is secretly kidnapping key members of their class and then
>> threatening their lives! Well over half the nation adores this president,
>> despite some elements of the "liberal media" being very worried about him.
>> But in the end, karma catches up to the man in a Shakespearean way. Donald
>> Trump could only dream in his most fervent power mad fantasies to be at
>> this villain's level. I worry that one day we will actually elect someone
>> with such monstrous talents who will be very hard to stop. Pressfield is
>> one of America's finest writers, and his book about ancient Sparta, The
>> Gates of Fire, is required reading at all of the military academies.
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 11:38 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> The idea that Trump (and this is here because it is not controversial)
>>> could pull a coup is an idea that the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of
>>> STaff, Gen. Mark MIlley has put paid to.
>>>
>>> He said that the military does not take an oath to individuals but to
>>> the Constitution.  Surely you have seen this story.
>>>
>>> So what happens at the D of Defense is irrelevant.  They cannot order
>>> the military to contravene the Constitution.
>>>
>>> Worry gone, over, done with, put paid to.
>>>
>>> Now can we worry about something else?
>>>
>>> bill w
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201116/c04754f0/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Nov 17 02:08:05 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 18:08:05 -0800
Subject: [ExI] pfizer and moderna
Message-ID: <003601d6bc86$7cda2900$768e7b00$@rainier66.com>

 

Cool a contest: we get to see which company's vaccine has the mildest side
effects.  Competition in the marketplace is always good.

 

It scarcely escapes our attention that with the whole world scrambling to
discover a vaccine, the USA appears to be getting there first.

 

spike

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201116/57595f74/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 17 02:20:58 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 10:20:58 +0800
Subject: [ExI] put pain
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaQ4GrfX2xQ1w=+K7ZU2DpL3L6fb-OkYZEShhT-Na+GVg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbP2RHDBZC_ksNymqD-6BBj7KsHnsvFE6uWLbuayf1_5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy0a1mPKgxu_H7hi_s9JR9_ayFmWEJD=NjEKsL-WuZ=J3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTkGGfsh6rb=R8s1tzWo=5Q5e3mzHiL7mjzBPotJpzxUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaQ4GrfX2xQ1w=+K7ZU2DpL3L6fb-OkYZEShhT-Na+GVg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3uX8cjNPS=UoRCL1yYjp6r_VkLBQPdiA6CtHSrAVYj9Q@mail.gmail.com>

Adrian Tymes wrote:
"In real life, "evil" and "competent" like that do not go hand in hand.
Putin is the best known modern example of someone trying to be both, and
Russia's been having some problems during his reign.  North Korea is a
better example of what happens when someone tries such methods for a
while."

The best example I can think of is the leader of China, Xi Jinping, who has
commissioned the organ harvesting, mass sterilization, rape and forced
re-education of many Uighyr people. And he is working on a high-tech
surveillance/tracking system to thoroughly monitor and control his own Han
fellow citizens. And yet despite this, he is an intelligent man who is
leading China into an era of continued economic prosperity and greatly
expanded military power. If his policies continue beyond his death, we will
see the continuation of a cold war between China and the United States and
her allies.

John

John

On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 1:45 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> All North Korea has to do is look South to see that their government's
> doings are a total failure.  People starving, people trying to leave the
> country, etc.  So why don't they change?  It has to be because they are not
> interested in change or in their country's food problems.  They are
> interested in saber-rattling, not competence. Competence counts only in
> something the military is doing, not the economy.  So who is it that
> doesn't care?  Psychopaths.  If they had consciences they would change, eh?
>
> bill w
>
> On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 10:59 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> In real life, "evil" and "competent" like that do not go hand in hand.
>> Putin is the best known modern example of someone trying to be both, and
>> Russia's been having some problems during his reign.  North Korea is a
>> better example of what happens when someone tries such methods for a while.
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 5:53 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> In the classic near future thriller/borderline sf novel, The Profession,
>>> by Steven Pressfield, a former USMC lieutenant general war hero who is sort
>>> of an evil version of Douglas MacArthur (he successfully forced a CCP
>>> expeditionary force in Africa to retreat and go home, but nearly started a
>>> nuclear war, and so the current president fires him, but he returns to
>>> America and receives a hero's welcome), becomes president during very hard
>>> economic and foreign policy times for America. This is a man who had worked
>>> with the intelligence agencies, and has no qualms about killing enemies,
>>> foreign and domestic. He has his loyal henchman (assassins and special
>>> forces) kill off key senators, congressmen and journalists. They all look
>>> like accidents. The country senses something is up, but this man actually
>>> does turn the nation around. He gets the economy going, in part by
>>> intimidating the billionaire class, and getting them to invest in the
>>> economy rather than off-shoring money, and also to pay much higher taxes.
>>> All it takes is secretly kidnapping key members of their class and then
>>> threatening their lives! Well over half the nation adores this president,
>>> despite some elements of the "liberal media" being very worried about him.
>>> But in the end, karma catches up to the man in a Shakespearean way. Donald
>>> Trump could only dream in his most fervent power mad fantasies to be at
>>> this villain's level. I worry that one day we will actually elect someone
>>> with such monstrous talents who will be very hard to stop. Pressfield is
>>> one of America's finest writers, and his book about ancient Sparta, The
>>> Gates of Fire, is required reading at all of the military academies.
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 11:38 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The idea that Trump (and this is here because it is not controversial)
>>>> could pull a coup is an idea that the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of
>>>> STaff, Gen. Mark MIlley has put paid to.
>>>>
>>>> He said that the military does not take an oath to individuals but to
>>>> the Constitution.  Surely you have seen this story.
>>>>
>>>> So what happens at the D of Defense is irrelevant.  They cannot order
>>>> the military to contravene the Constitution.
>>>>
>>>> Worry gone, over, done with, put paid to.
>>>>
>>>> Now can we worry about something else?
>>>>
>>>> bill w
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201117/6caba59f/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 17 02:27:55 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 10:27:55 +0800
Subject: [ExI] pfizer and moderna
In-Reply-To: <003601d6bc86$7cda2900$768e7b00$@rainier66.com>
References: <003601d6bc86$7cda2900$768e7b00$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy0BpHLvnjyd_uZrwr8jQt3X=HMBCMUhrhbE9OvbM-do3w@mail.gmail.com>

Spike wrote:
"It scarcely escapes our attention that with the whole world scrambling to
discover a vaccine, the USA appears to be getting there first."

Yes, it does the heart good!  :  )



On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 10:10 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> Cool a contest: we get to see which company?s vaccine has the mildest side
> effects.  Competition in the marketplace is always good.
>
>
>
> It scarcely escapes our attention that with the whole world scrambling to
> discover a vaccine, the USA appears to be getting there first.
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201117/1deb309f/attachment.htm>

From msd001 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 17 02:26:35 2020
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 21:26:35 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The Age of Sex Robots
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSiDOLzBkC6RHg2VTEPqjK5J+9ziVFOqXF3xnCPkn2cxw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armg0pmkfF+NL1oXgGMZpSr5h8cGfK=_KdnM_75=ijCBzZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQWOsKsr-jBoBp+CW=bkgyUK2y9=ePqrw21HRK8-r8x3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armid=So3gU8NysmENd_MsLa34BxdN3hGydsPV5s5Hd0R5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaKJ1q2YGxScSXk3+Ug9GUuUwzTCm-FMwJ+cb3absOmEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <d2f0fb34-3021-8a48-22fe-6d609a42b318@pobox.com>
 <004801d6bbb7$a518e610$ef4ab230$@rainier66.com>
 <CAGSKFy1xDPECYUsr0hNZknGjv7mTWMNADDE+s_PJBAaU2n=-_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSiDOLzBkC6RHg2VTEPqjK5J+9ziVFOqXF3xnCPkn2cxw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbKgmD79Q+=U0S-mj=iyyhLF-CQED88VDNCNe68yyS=iXw@mail.gmail.com>

This subject line is difficult to parse.

The difference in "The Age" used as an extended epoc and also an
instantaneous measure of temporal distance as well as the hinting of
context between initial cap and title case of words makes a superpositional
gestalt of meanings.

How aged must a sex robot be to participate in The Age of Sex Robots?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201116/a788d3ae/attachment.htm>

From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Nov 17 02:42:39 2020
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 18:42:39 -0800
Subject: [ExI] The Age of Sex Robots
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbKgmD79Q+=U0S-mj=iyyhLF-CQED88VDNCNe68yyS=iXw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armg0pmkfF+NL1oXgGMZpSr5h8cGfK=_KdnM_75=ijCBzZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQWOsKsr-jBoBp+CW=bkgyUK2y9=ePqrw21HRK8-r8x3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armid=So3gU8NysmENd_MsLa34BxdN3hGydsPV5s5Hd0R5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaKJ1q2YGxScSXk3+Ug9GUuUwzTCm-FMwJ+cb3absOmEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <d2f0fb34-3021-8a48-22fe-6d609a42b318@pobox.com>
 <004801d6bbb7$a518e610$ef4ab230$@rainier66.com>
 <CAGSKFy1xDPECYUsr0hNZknGjv7mTWMNADDE+s_PJBAaU2n=-_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSiDOLzBkC6RHg2VTEPqjK5J+9ziVFOqXF3xnCPkn2cxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbKgmD79Q+=U0S-mj=iyyhLF-CQED88VDNCNe68yyS=iXw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTtjG-SGXqvEAuzVue+sB87Q1qNk5F==eT-kux_y9fEmQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 6:29 PM Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> This subject line is difficult to parse.
>
> The difference in "The Age" used as an extended epoc and also an
> instantaneous measure of temporal distance as well as the hinting of
> context between initial cap and title case of words makes a superpositional
> gestalt of meanings.
>

Only the first meaning appears to be intended by the original poster.


> How aged must a sex robot be to participate in The Age of Sex Robots?
>

Any positive number.  Fresh off the assembly line is old enough to directly
participate.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201116/22a3622c/attachment-0001.htm>

From bronto at pobox.com  Tue Nov 17 07:56:04 2020
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 23:56:04 -0800
Subject: [ExI] British government commissions SBSP report
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTk+qRJ6iMG-yWyZezNw+ZZBo_74H_fy+dEbgLXe-afxg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <247043905.9664686.1605365629637.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <247043905.9664686.1605365629637@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAGSKFy2enL9deWmf036wABuNDKD0Y+N5_hZg1Srxg+idDQreBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRE4tfXNyE6PP459dsth96AY7VAoNy7TLEoQg2jsU60Mg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJydP01gQMWLLvTwD0w=CaZKqEpmpY=w40zuu4iCMuX6nig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTk+qRJ6iMG-yWyZezNw+ZZBo_74H_fy+dEbgLXe-afxg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <542db5ab-1d45-a7cb-ed04-91a4fb559864@pobox.com>

 > On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 8:53 AM Giulio Prisco wrote:
 >> You mean collecting solar power on the Moon
 >> and beaming it to Earth?

On 2020-11-16 08:58, Adrian Tymes wrote:
 > That, or building solar power satellites on the Moon
 > and launching them to Earth orbit.

Power sats need to be in GSO, one would think.

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 17 10:59:34 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 18:59:34 +0800
Subject: [ExI] The Age of Sex Robots
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTtjG-SGXqvEAuzVue+sB87Q1qNk5F==eT-kux_y9fEmQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armg0pmkfF+NL1oXgGMZpSr5h8cGfK=_KdnM_75=ijCBzZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQWOsKsr-jBoBp+CW=bkgyUK2y9=ePqrw21HRK8-r8x3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armid=So3gU8NysmENd_MsLa34BxdN3hGydsPV5s5Hd0R5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaKJ1q2YGxScSXk3+Ug9GUuUwzTCm-FMwJ+cb3absOmEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <d2f0fb34-3021-8a48-22fe-6d609a42b318@pobox.com>
 <004801d6bbb7$a518e610$ef4ab230$@rainier66.com>
 <CAGSKFy1xDPECYUsr0hNZknGjv7mTWMNADDE+s_PJBAaU2n=-_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSiDOLzBkC6RHg2VTEPqjK5J+9ziVFOqXF3xnCPkn2cxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbKgmD79Q+=U0S-mj=iyyhLF-CQED88VDNCNe68yyS=iXw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTtjG-SGXqvEAuzVue+sB87Q1qNk5F==eT-kux_y9fEmQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1p_04Q=iDZsc56vA-QAY4z6sF9C8yYqJtZFxzj2_TW5g@mail.gmail.com>

"How aged must a sex robot be to participate in The Age of Sex Robots?"

"Any positive number.  Fresh off the assembly line is old enough to
directly participate."

Oh, no! They must first have their AI brain downloaded with the right age
appropriate personality software! Lol

John

On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 10:45 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 6:29 PM Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> This subject line is difficult to parse.
>>
>> The difference in "The Age" used as an extended epoc and also an
>> instantaneous measure of temporal distance as well as the hinting of
>> context between initial cap and title case of words makes a superpositional
>> gestalt of meanings.
>>
>
> Only the first meaning appears to be intended by the original poster.
>
>
>> How aged must a sex robot be to participate in The Age of Sex Robots?
>>
>
> Any positive number.  Fresh off the assembly line is old enough to
> directly participate.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201117/86e18519/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 17 19:30:01 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 13:30:01 -0600
Subject: [ExI] quotes of the day
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaz7soQ_rsPAXt=+BBDCGr13=EnUL95ZiAOYvYwS93Cvw@mail.gmail.com>

"Friendship is like peeing on yourself.  Everyone can see it but only you
get the warm feeling that it brings."  Robert Bloch

"The best government is a benevolent tyranny tempered by an occasional
assassination."  Voltaire

bill w
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201117/659ef946/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 17 19:35:19 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 13:35:19 -0600
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day again
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY2ecms8s1f63O+8Q+G9JGnsyDq3GDTkCOJYMvvS1aPCA@mail.gmail.com>

"Controversy equalizes fools and wise men, and fools know it."  Oliver
Wendell Holmes, Jr.

(Sorry - am reading a book of quotations and having a day where I am easily
impressed - one of those awkward days)
bill w
bill w
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201117/c07c6423/attachment.htm>

From avant at sollegro.com  Wed Nov 18 03:44:45 2020
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 19:44:45 -0800
Subject: [ExI] put up with me
Message-ID: <20201117194445.Horde.Q1GN4aDvxQMhEq8rjacFYzR@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>


Quoting John Grigg:


> Stuart LaForge wrote:
> "I am glad you are still around, but no dice on the yacht. If I had the
> money for a yacht, then funding cardiac stem-cell research would
> probably be a better investment anyway. :-)"
>
> Stuart, what you wrote here made me think of my/our dead friend, Robert
> Bradbury. I recall how he was a scientist/entrepreneur who created a
> company to develop carbon nanotubes. But he was supposedly too ahead of his
> time, and lost his financial nest egg/fortune, despite his labor of love. I
> enjoyed the time I spent in Spike's backyard, listening to Robert talk
> about his plans. I really miss the guy, and considering how I am in
> American expat in the Philippines, and his own interest in foreign women, I
> wish he were still around for me to talk to... If he had only lived, I bet
> Robert would have accomplished alot by now. Well, at least he was
> cryonically suspended.

Indeed. I remember Robert's posts from back when I was in college.  
Timing, marketing, and luck do play huge roles in the success of a  
business venture. For example, steam engines took off like wildfire  
and were amazingly successful just a few years after James Watt's  
patent on the separate condenser expired. Such is life. But as you  
say, at least Robert was suspended.

I am glad to see you have resolved your communications issues  
involving said foreign women and are active on the list once again. :-)

Stuart LaForge



From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Nov 18 04:25:04 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 20:25:04 -0800
Subject: [ExI] put up with me
In-Reply-To: <20201117194445.Horde.Q1GN4aDvxQMhEq8rjacFYzR@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <20201117194445.Horde.Q1GN4aDvxQMhEq8rjacFYzR@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <011501d6bd62$ca58f300$5f0ad900$@rainier66.com>

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat 

>...Indeed. I remember Robert's posts from back when I was in college.  
Timing, marketing, and luck do play huge roles in the success of a business
venture. For example, steam engines took off like wildfire and were
amazingly successful just a few years after James Watt's patent on the
separate condenser expired. Such is life. But as you say, at least Robert
was suspended.
...

Stuart LaForge






It will soon be ten years since Robert passed away.  He is greatly missed.

spike



From avant at sollegro.com  Wed Nov 18 12:54:44 2020
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 04:54:44 -0800
Subject: [ExI] put up with me
Message-ID: <20201118045444.Horde.ZyO4J9kk3PPA6TnVNK6kzeO@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>


Quoting Bill Wallace:


> I have never had any chest pains.  Did you get any use out of that book I
> sent to you?

Unfortunately not yet. I took full time teaching position recently and  
that has been using a great deal of reading and writing bandwidth. But  
I do still have it on my list.

Stuart LaForge



From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Nov 18 14:37:39 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 06:37:39 -0800
Subject: [ExI] put up with me
In-Reply-To: <20201118045444.Horde.ZyO4J9kk3PPA6TnVNK6kzeO@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <20201118045444.Horde.ZyO4J9kk3PPA6TnVNK6kzeO@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <003501d6bdb8$5e2f0420$1a8d0c60$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat

>...I took full time teaching position recently and that has been using a
great deal of reading and writing bandwidth. But I do still have it on my
list.

Stuart LaForge


_______________________________________________




Cool!  Stuart I am honored to have a teacher as a friend and collaborator on
the future.

spike





From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 18 14:41:11 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 08:41:11 -0600
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYYN6_ESTUyaBTRMinioogXO-5+1G1rJLLUm7UXDFN+Pg@mail.gmail.com>

"I always wanted to be somebody, but now I realize that I should have been
more specific."  Lily Tomlin

bill w
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201118/de9cf085/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 19 15:18:21 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 23:18:21 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Eventbrite/Zoom addiction!
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy2P8YKiwM9jTu2BjOnJU4Cg-3N+iTt3bC=tLx-O+pzEbw@mail.gmail.com>

I have definitely gotten addicted to Eventbrite and the innumerable variety
of interactive events their search engine gathers up for me to view on
Zoom. I have signed up for well over 100 of them, with most occurring this
month or next! I am actually losing sleep at times because of great stuff
which happens in England, which is an area Eventbrite algorithms like to
assign me. I love the historical and performing arts stuff which they
offer, along with the wonderful accents. Last night I did a science fiction
improv with a bunch of English young people, which was great fun and made
me sort of feel like I was attending Hogwarts University (they were mostly
in their early twenties). When I attended a couple of panels on British
start-ups, for some reason the engineering guy was always Scottish with a
thick brogue! Lol One such gentleman talked about how he worked on several
James Bond films years ago, to help create the cool gadgets Q gave to the
master spy.  Finally, I have connected with some good crypto folks who I
think will steer me right, and I also now have not one, but two personal
life coaches!

John  :  )
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201119/4d0b8bc6/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 19 16:39:29 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 10:39:29 -0600
Subject: [ExI] plastic turkeys
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEa0epPotvD7dzRO41e6nw-1wPBXWYgi3VcSJZYYgNTiug@mail.gmail.com>

I had a symbolic encounter this morning with a plastic turkey.  A
commercial on TV for a hardware store showed an open BBQ grill with a
turkey, surely plastic.

Now somebody had to make that and perhaps a lot more of them.  If you asked
an employee of that factory about his job, he might say that it paid pretty
well, kept his family fed and housed, and he was glad to have it.

Who do you thank if you are an atheist?  All of us here have substantially
above average intelligence. to which we credit our abilities in STEM (I'll
go ahead and include psychology in that as iffy as that may be.), and
perhaps other fields.

We could thank our parents who gave us the genes, but they were not likely
to be thinking of our IQ scores at the time.

We could call it luck, but since that is simply a statistical rarity, it's
kind of redundant.

So we are kind of stuck without anyone or anything to thank that we are not
making plastic turkeys, not that there is anything whatsoever wrong with
that. Just a thought.

bill w
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201119/1351141d/attachment.htm>

From sparge at gmail.com  Thu Nov 19 16:55:13 2020
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 11:55:13 -0500
Subject: [ExI] plastic turkeys
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEa0epPotvD7dzRO41e6nw-1wPBXWYgi3VcSJZYYgNTiug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa0epPotvD7dzRO41e6nw-1wPBXWYgi3VcSJZYYgNTiug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2eRB8aYCj371eQeZwesw8pMZ5ZhV7_yPDoa+Zx49hRVng@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 11:41 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> Who do you thank if you are an atheist?
>

Friends and family for supporting you and tolerating you. Yourself for
putting you where you are now, if you're happy with that.


> We could thank our parents who gave us the genes, but they were not likely
> to be thinking of our IQ scores at the time.
>

No, but they put a lot of time, money, and effort into raising you.

-Dave
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201119/c125b588/attachment.htm>

From sparge at gmail.com  Thu Nov 19 17:01:35 2020
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 12:01:35 -0500
Subject: [ExI] future fads
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaUhWLoHONGsnxPWz-7EOEcjeTEDq_GBWCZ67f9ceoC9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaUhWLoHONGsnxPWz-7EOEcjeTEDq_GBWCZ67f9ceoC9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2efE+t74vEP=WZ_Ck0O6oRgWpZC5UH-+WAHLxnD8BsY0g@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 8:02 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> Can you imagine that somehow splicing those genes into people becomes
> possible? Of course they will have to come in different colors and maybe
> patterns.  And.....
>

Available today with UV tattoos.

-Dave
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201119/f35942ad/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 19 17:02:36 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 11:02:36 -0600
Subject: [ExI] plastic turkeys
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2eRB8aYCj371eQeZwesw8pMZ5ZhV7_yPDoa+Zx49hRVng@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa0epPotvD7dzRO41e6nw-1wPBXWYgi3VcSJZYYgNTiug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2eRB8aYCj371eQeZwesw8pMZ5ZhV7_yPDoa+Zx49hRVng@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZHPD8+R8fjozcRBfrYQTNzAgb4ZWxEGhA2LXUqr0E0ew@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 10:57 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 11:41 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> Who do you thank if you are an atheist?
>>
>
> Friends and family for supporting you and tolerating you. Yourself for
> putting you where you are now, if you're happy with that.
>
>
>> We could thank our parents who gave us the genes, but they were not
>> likely to be thinking of our IQ scores at the time.
>>
>
> No, but they put a lot of time, money, and effort into raising you.
>
> -Dave
>
Good thoughts, Dave   I would add 'putting up with oneself', as I am hard
to live with at times, and have had very bad habits that were not easy to
break.  So I am thankful to myself as well as parents, teachers and so on.
  bill w

> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201119/23577d47/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 19 17:08:09 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 11:08:09 -0600
Subject: [ExI] future fads
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2efE+t74vEP=WZ_Ck0O6oRgWpZC5UH-+WAHLxnD8BsY0g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaUhWLoHONGsnxPWz-7EOEcjeTEDq_GBWCZ67f9ceoC9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2efE+t74vEP=WZ_Ck0O6oRgWpZC5UH-+WAHLxnD8BsY0g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbcYn-KsPH-qsXw41Oi2AsZabG1KjoQUF9+QhfwN3Gd6w@mail.gmail.com>

UV tattoos - what a great idea - a person allergic to penicillin or
whatever, gets a UV tattoo, so that if he shows up unconscious at an
emergency room he can be scanned to find out his allergies.   bill w

On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 11:04 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 8:02 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> Can you imagine that somehow splicing those genes into people becomes
>> possible? Of course they will have to come in different colors and maybe
>> patterns.  And.....
>>
>
> Available today with UV tattoos.
>
> -Dave
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201119/4ca243b2/attachment.htm>

From bronto at pobox.com  Thu Nov 19 17:36:47 2020
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 09:36:47 -0800
Subject: [ExI] future fads
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbcYn-KsPH-qsXw41Oi2AsZabG1KjoQUF9+QhfwN3Gd6w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaUhWLoHONGsnxPWz-7EOEcjeTEDq_GBWCZ67f9ceoC9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2efE+t74vEP=WZ_Ck0O6oRgWpZC5UH-+WAHLxnD8BsY0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbcYn-KsPH-qsXw41Oi2AsZabG1KjoQUF9+QhfwN3Gd6w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <aef50c56-e0f6-c7a4-c4f6-93701d336ac7@pobox.com>

On 2020-11-19 09:08, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:
> UV tattoos?- what a great idea - a person allergic to penicillin or 
> whatever, gets a UV tattoo, so that if he shows up unconscious at an 
> emergency room he can be scanned to find out his allergies.? ?bill w

That idea appears in, um, something by Heinlein i think.  Before 
embarking on a quest, everyone in the party is required to get a tattoo 
of their medical history.  Others choose to have it in a prominent place 
in invisible ink, but the narrator prefers ordinary ink, where it will 
normally be covered -- his bottom.  ?Starship Troopers? maybe?

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org



From zoielsoy at gmail.com  Thu Nov 19 18:11:59 2020
From: zoielsoy at gmail.com (Angel Z. Lopez)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 13:11:59 -0500
Subject: [ExI] plastic turkeys
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZHPD8+R8fjozcRBfrYQTNzAgb4ZWxEGhA2LXUqr0E0ew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa0epPotvD7dzRO41e6nw-1wPBXWYgi3VcSJZYYgNTiug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2eRB8aYCj371eQeZwesw8pMZ5ZhV7_yPDoa+Zx49hRVng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZHPD8+R8fjozcRBfrYQTNzAgb4ZWxEGhA2LXUqr0E0ew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALHxhTT8TTbuZ89AaFy1_1Fx7szhDEjRud8YRAmt4f4fWq+P4g@mail.gmail.com>

What makes you think you?re an atheist? You label yourself without truly
knowing anything. The idea of heaven and hell isn?t out of the question if
you don?t understand the origin of creation. The true facts of reality is
created through a web of interconnections which take form through ones
perception. Nobody can be correct if this organic or inorganic formula is
constantly altering itself to tailor a ?belief? or idea of what reality
really is.

On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 12:10 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 10:57 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 11:41 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Who do you thank if you are an atheist?
>>>
>>
>> Friends and family for supporting you and tolerating you. Yourself for
>> putting you where you are now, if you're happy with that.
>>
>>
>>> We could thank our parents who gave us the genes, but they were not
>>> likely to be thinking of our IQ scores at the time.
>>>
>>
>> No, but they put a lot of time, money, and effort into raising you.
>>
>> -Dave
>>
> Good thoughts, Dave   I would add 'putting up with oneself', as I am hard
> to live with at times, and have had very bad habits that were not easy to
> break.  So I am thankful to myself as well as parents, teachers and so on.
>   bill w
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201119/666f6d57/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Nov 19 18:30:43 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 10:30:43 -0800
Subject: [ExI] plastic turkeys
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEa0epPotvD7dzRO41e6nw-1wPBXWYgi3VcSJZYYgNTiug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa0epPotvD7dzRO41e6nw-1wPBXWYgi3VcSJZYYgNTiug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00d201d6bea2$177102f0$465308d0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

>?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: [ExI] plastic turkeys

 

>?I had a symbolic encounter this morning with a plastic turkey.  ?

 

>?So we are kind of stuck without anyone or anything to thank that we are not making plastic turkeys, not that there is anything whatsoever wrong with that. Just a thought.  bill w

 

 

Hi Billw, this comment brought a smile and some pleasant hours of pondering and recalling fond memories of my career opportunities to observe mass production (or in this case lower-midlevel production (typically what we used to call class 4, perhaps 10 thousand units.)

 

Let?s do a little thought experiment pls and work backwards thru the process which ended with the plastic turkey selling BBQ grills at Home Despot or equivalent purveyor of BBQ grills, hoping to point out, particularly this time of year, that an outdoor gas grill is a great way to roast one?s holiday turkey or pot roast (I have used my grill for that purpose and it works.)

 

The lowest level guy in that whole guy in that chain of production has a lousy job.  She is the one whose job is to take the plastic turkeys and package them in a paper box, tape it shut and load them onto a truck headed for the post office or UPS.

 

The reason I wrote about that is that every other job going north in the skill level chain of production, is a great job.  I completely understand why whoever holds those jobs would be thanking their favorite deity or evolution.

 

spike 

 

 

 

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201119/9f075614/attachment-0001.htm>

From bronto at pobox.com  Thu Nov 19 18:38:53 2020
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 10:38:53 -0800
Subject: [ExI] plastic turkeys
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEa0epPotvD7dzRO41e6nw-1wPBXWYgi3VcSJZYYgNTiug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa0epPotvD7dzRO41e6nw-1wPBXWYgi3VcSJZYYgNTiug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ff73823e-b3ee-748e-02db-c684bfcab335@pobox.com>

On 2020-11-19 08:39, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:
> We could thank our parents who gave us the genes, but they
> were not likely to be thinking of our IQ scores at the time.

They also taught me early to read, which may be much more significant.

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 19 18:40:00 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 12:40:00 -0600
Subject: [ExI] plastic turkeys
In-Reply-To: <00d201d6bea2$177102f0$465308d0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa0epPotvD7dzRO41e6nw-1wPBXWYgi3VcSJZYYgNTiug@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d201d6bea2$177102f0$465308d0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbU3c+JciYk2wk=hgjh=31Gq1-6x1=_G9UK6HWR3pyreg@mail.gmail.com>

But Spike, maybe that guy packing the plastic turkeys has an IQ of 75 and
is ecstatically happy to have that job - not lousy at all.   We, ofcourse,
would quickly become insane. bill w

On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 12:32 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> >?> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* [ExI] plastic turkeys
>
>
>
> >?I had a symbolic encounter this morning with a plastic turkey.  ?
>
>
>
> >?So we are kind of stuck without anyone or anything to thank that we are
> not making plastic turkeys, not that there is anything whatsoever wrong
> with that. Just a thought.  bill w
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Billw, this comment brought a smile and some pleasant hours of
> pondering and recalling fond memories of my career opportunities to observe
> mass production (or in this case lower-midlevel production (typically what
> we used to call class 4, perhaps 10 thousand units.)
>
>
>
> Let?s do a little thought experiment pls and work backwards thru the
> process which ended with the plastic turkey selling BBQ grills at Home
> Despot or equivalent purveyor of BBQ grills, hoping to point out,
> particularly this time of year, that an outdoor gas grill is a great way to
> roast one?s holiday turkey or pot roast (I have used my grill for that
> purpose and it works.)
>
>
>
> The lowest level guy in that whole guy in that chain of production has a
> lousy job.  She is the one whose job is to take the plastic turkeys and
> package them in a paper box, tape it shut and load them onto a truck headed
> for the post office or UPS.
>
>
>
> The reason I wrote about that is that every other job going north in the
> skill level chain of production, is a great job.  I completely understand
> why whoever holds those jobs would be thanking their favorite deity or
> evolution.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201119/81b0476f/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 19 18:50:29 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 12:50:29 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Eventbrite/Zoom addiction!
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy2P8YKiwM9jTu2BjOnJU4Cg-3N+iTt3bC=tLx-O+pzEbw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy2P8YKiwM9jTu2BjOnJU4Cg-3N+iTt3bC=tLx-O+pzEbw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaB+i4mjSzJr8EBCoiKier_N2VpZKw+Ca_uvKwqzLbJcQ@mail.gmail.com>

Your post led me to think of this:  what things not even thought in the
near past do we have now that have no relationship to advances in science
or technology?  In your post you mention life coaches.  I think that's a
good example, but right off hand, I cannot think of any more.

I assume a life coach is a generalist, not a specialist like people who
give advice on jobs or investments or buying a car.  bill w

On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 9:20 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I have definitely gotten addicted to Eventbrite and the innumerable
> variety of interactive events their search engine gathers up for me to view
> on Zoom. I have signed up for well over 100 of them, with most occurring
> this month or next! I am actually losing sleep at times because of great
> stuff which happens in England, which is an area Eventbrite algorithms like
> to assign me. I love the historical and performing arts stuff which they
> offer, along with the wonderful accents. Last night I did a science fiction
> improv with a bunch of English young people, which was great fun and made
> me sort of feel like I was attending Hogwarts University (they were mostly
> in their early twenties). When I attended a couple of panels on British
> start-ups, for some reason the engineering guy was always Scottish with a
> thick brogue! Lol One such gentleman talked about how he worked on several
> James Bond films years ago, to help create the cool gadgets Q gave to the
> master spy.  Finally, I have connected with some good crypto folks who I
> think will steer me right, and I also now have not one, but two personal
> life coaches!
>
> John  :  )
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201119/1f96e70a/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 19 19:04:44 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 03:04:44 +0800
Subject: [ExI] plastic turkeys
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZHPD8+R8fjozcRBfrYQTNzAgb4ZWxEGhA2LXUqr0E0ew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa0epPotvD7dzRO41e6nw-1wPBXWYgi3VcSJZYYgNTiug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2eRB8aYCj371eQeZwesw8pMZ5ZhV7_yPDoa+Zx49hRVng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZHPD8+R8fjozcRBfrYQTNzAgb4ZWxEGhA2LXUqr0E0ew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3ZbrN9PvAYT-KeuCvdBuTwD3v2vFVM+MBVXLEzWjDJWw@mail.gmail.com>

 bill w wrote:

> I had a symbolic encounter this morning with a plastic turkey.  A
> commercial on TV for a hardware store showed an open BBQ grill with a
> turkey, surely plastic.
>

Plastic! Well, that's blasphemy! Lol


> Now somebody had to make that and perhaps a lot more of them.  If you
> asked an employee of that factory about his job, he might say that it paid
> pretty well, kept his family fed and housed, and he was glad to have it.
>

I bet that pretty good pay is only true of his managers, and not the rank
and file workers... And we can safely assume he works in China or Vietnam.

Who do you thank if you are an atheist?  All of us here have substantially
> above average intelligence. to which we credit our abilities in STEM (I'll
> go ahead and include psychology in that as iffy as that may be.), and
> perhaps other fields.
>

 Well, be thankful for family and friends, especially if they have treated
you well. I unfortunately do not have substantially above average
intelligence. I have been tested by Mensa and I was a little below what
they require for a basic membership. And I am not a stem worker, despite
coming from a family of engineers on my father's side.


> We could thank our parents who gave us the genes, but they were not likely
> to be thinking of our IQ scores at the time.
>

I am actually frustrated with my mother because she attended Columbia
University, but did not find a father for me there, who would have most
likely provided quality genes for high intelligence. Instead she found a
"bad boy" who was tall, handsome and entertaining, a war vet, but of very
average intelligence, though street smart. And yet I did not even inherit
his movie star good looks, despite him being my sperm donor, and the one
who most likely constrained my intellectual abilities. His brothers were
all very bright, but not him. One of them is even in the IBM Hall of Fame.
But then I must remember that every conception is a big roll of the genetic
dice... I could have come out very different, in either a good/superior or
a sad/horrific way...

At least among Asians, considering a potential mate's intelligence, and
what they can contribute to the intellect of future children, is common
thinking. And we wonder why they may one day dominate the world...


> We could call it luck, but since that is simply a statistical rarity, it's
> kind of redundant.
>

I am amazed how many people take credit for what the universe bestowed on
them. I want to take away fifty IQ points, send them back in time, and see
how they do without much intellectual ability...


>
> So we are kind of stuck without anyone or anything to thank that we are
> not making plastic turkeys, not that there is anything whatsoever wrong
> with that. Just a thought.
>

 Thank the god AI at the far end of time who may one day resurrect you,
despite all of your homo sapiens sapiens limitations... And then light
votive candles
 in front of the icons for transhumanist Saints Anders Sandberg and Eliezer
Yudkowsky.

I have lived in the third world now for about a year, and am just shocked
at the amount of poverty and deprivation that I see. Over-population is
such a serious problem, along with pollution, corruption and violence.
There are many people here who would be very grateful for a job making
plastic turkeys. And to them you would be rich. But ironically, to the
Chinoy families who rule/misrule the Philippines, you Bill, are a total
poverty case!

  John

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 1:11 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 10:57 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 11:41 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Who do you thank if you are an atheist?
>>>
>>
>> Friends and family for supporting you and tolerating you. Yourself for
>> putting you where you are now, if you're happy with that.
>>
>>
>>> We could thank our parents who gave us the genes, but they were not
>>> likely to be thinking of our IQ scores at the time.
>>>
>>
>> No, but they put a lot of time, money, and effort into raising you.
>>
>> -Dave
>>
> Good thoughts, Dave   I would add 'putting up with oneself', as I am hard
> to live with at times, and have had very bad habits that were not easy to
> break.  So I am thankful to myself as well as parents, teachers and so on.
>   bill w
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201120/dbe8c1c2/attachment.htm>

From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Nov 19 19:54:26 2020
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 19:54:26 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Arecibo radio telescope to be closed down
Message-ID: <CAL_armi4q91N-FtnYGmfGjhP6xEhmVjfH2-MstaRVtPbO9g2dg@mail.gmail.com>

Arecibo radio telescope, an icon of astronomy, is lost
By Meghan Bartels - Space.com Senior Writer  Nov 19, 2020

Arecibo Telescope's illustrious scientific career is over.
<https://www.space.com/arecibo-observatory-radio-telescope-to-be-destroyed>

Quote:
The National Science Foundation (NSF) will decommission Arecibo
Observatory's massive radio dish after damage has made the facility
too dangerous to repair, the agency announced today (Nov. 19).

The announcement came as scientists awaited a verdict about the fate
of the iconic observatory after damage to the complex cabling
supporting a 900-ton science platform suspended over the dish.
---------------

This is a big loss to science.  :(

BillK

From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Nov 19 20:08:00 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 12:08:00 -0800
Subject: [ExI] plastic turkeys
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbU3c+JciYk2wk=hgjh=31Gq1-6x1=_G9UK6HWR3pyreg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa0epPotvD7dzRO41e6nw-1wPBXWYgi3VcSJZYYgNTiug@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d201d6bea2$177102f0$465308d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbU3c+JciYk2wk=hgjh=31Gq1-6x1=_G9UK6HWR3pyreg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <011801d6beaf$ae890d60$0b9b2820$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 10:40 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] plastic turkeys

 

But Spike, maybe that guy packing the plastic turkeys has an IQ of 75 and is ecstatically happy to have that job - not lousy at all.   We, ofcourse, would quickly become insane. bill w

 

 

Ja we would hate that.  You and I had mindless jobs at one time, but we were teenagers and knew it was temporary, a necessary evil.  I can?t imagine something like that being the end of a career.

 

Where I was going with that thought experiment: go one level up.  The guy right upstream of the packaging guy is the one who runs the injection molding machine.  She is given the mold pieces, usually two for this kind of end product, and mounts them into the device, sets every dial, and hits start.

 

spike

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201119/2cd9b915/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Nov 19 20:30:55 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 12:30:55 -0800
Subject: [ExI] plastic turkeys
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy3ZbrN9PvAYT-KeuCvdBuTwD3v2vFVM+MBVXLEzWjDJWw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa0epPotvD7dzRO41e6nw-1wPBXWYgi3VcSJZYYgNTiug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2eRB8aYCj371eQeZwesw8pMZ5ZhV7_yPDoa+Zx49hRVng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZHPD8+R8fjozcRBfrYQTNzAgb4ZWxEGhA2LXUqr0E0ew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy3ZbrN9PvAYT-KeuCvdBuTwD3v2vFVM+MBVXLEzWjDJWw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <013a01d6beb2$e206f050$a614d0f0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of John Grigg via extropy-chat



 

>? Well, be thankful for family and friends, especially if they have treated you well. I unfortunately do not have substantially above average intelligence. I have been tested by Mensa and I was a little below what they require for a basic membership. And I am not a stem worker, despite coming from a family of engineers on my father's side. ?  John

 

 

Hi John, I do wish to contest your contention, in a way.

 

I recognize you are as you say, not Mensa material, given the type of test they give, which does not measure your brand of smart.  When you were at my house in 19 ninety-something and we had that huge party, I watched and I listened, to everyone.  That was the party where Eliezer was doing that hako sote business, oh that was great fun, Robert Bradbury was being Robert (oy) Harvey Newstrom was there telling gay jokes with himself as the victim, I laughed until I hurt, oh what a time.

 

I watched how Greg Burch worked the crowd, and oh he is good at that.  I watched and listened at the interaction between Anders and Eliezer, two guys with enormous respect for each other but scarcely any two guys could be found with more opposite personalities than those two.  I watched and listened to the others, including you.

 

John what I saw in you is a rare type of smart in that crowd, a person who understands how to empathize.  Mensa tests don?t measure that.  No one really know how to measure that.  You have Oprah Winfrey smart: she and you somehow make people feel comfortable.  To this day, the only person my bride remembers in that whole crowd of exi-luminaries? is you.  I learned a lot that day John.  How one carries oneself matters.  So? be a gentleman, be like unto John Grigg, empathize with others, for feelings do matter.

 

It was a special time for me to host that.  It was right afterwards that Greg asked me to moderate ExI.  He isn?t the kind of guy who it is easy to refuse.

 

spike

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201119/90de5483/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Nov 19 21:08:12 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 13:08:12 -0800
Subject: [ExI] plastic turkeys
In-Reply-To: <011801d6beaf$ae890d60$0b9b2820$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa0epPotvD7dzRO41e6nw-1wPBXWYgi3VcSJZYYgNTiug@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d201d6bea2$177102f0$465308d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbU3c+JciYk2wk=hgjh=31Gq1-6x1=_G9UK6HWR3pyreg@mail.gmail.com>
 <011801d6beaf$ae890d60$0b9b2820$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <015901d6beb8$184763c0$48d62b40$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
?

 

>?Where I was going with that thought experiment: go one level up.  The guy right upstream of the packaging guy is the one who runs the injection molding machine.  She is given the mold pieces, usually two for this kind of end product, and mounts them into the device, sets every dial, and hits start.  spike

 

 

 

 

OK go one level up again.  Someone had to make the mold pieces to give to the technician to mount in the injection molding machine.  That to me is the best job of all, because it is a fun interesting inventor?s job.  That person must decide what kind of mold would be the right thing and how to design it.

 

Whenever I see something like a plastic turkey being used to sell gas grills, I look closely at that plastic device and learn much every time I examine one.  I don?t see a replica of a turkey, I see a piece of marketing equipment that must be manufactured in moderately low quantities (perhaps 10 thousand units (because every household doesn?t want a plastic turkey)) and wonder about the manufacturing process to bring it into existence.

 

For instance?

 

In 1962, Dustin Hoffman?s character in The Graduate was given the advice to go into plastics.  He didn?t want to, thought that would be so boring.  It isn?t!  That isn?t boring at all.  If he took one day or even one hour to look into plastics, he woulda had a great career rather than wasting his talent making movies.  OK so I like Dustin Hoffman?s work so he is a special case, but still.

 

For instance? you have examples of stuff all over your house made of thermal-setting plastic, nearly all of them acrylonitrile butadiene styrene (ABS) or some chemical close cousin of ABS:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrylonitrile_butadiene_styrene

 

which include things like milk jugs and shampoo bottles and that kind of stuff, low cost, easy to make in quantity, durable, etc.  Since I named those two ABS examples, pls go examine them right now and tell me what you see.  Did you notice the seam?  Both of those and anything made of ABS or any injection-molded plastic will always have those seams, and most of the time they are easy to find.

 

OK then, what about that seam?  And what about the two pieces on either side of that seam please?  What did you notice about the seam itself and the two pieces?  What does that tell you about how that item was designed?

 

spike

 

 

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201119/7069c32c/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 19 21:15:16 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 15:15:16 -0600
Subject: [ExI] occupation and IQ - two data sets
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEb2iM4xsTz07LuTusXwjiMBChnY5tttZ+rA5bu5z9aiWA@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.quora.com/How-do-the-average-IQs-rank-by-profession-Which-professions-have-the-highest-IQs

https://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/Occupations.aspx

Some interesting differences between the two sets;  for one, the IQs are
rather lower in the second set. I can certainly agree with the one with the
professors at the top??  bill w
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201119/2de1f286/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 19 21:18:35 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 15:18:35 -0600
Subject: [ExI] plastic turkeys
In-Reply-To: <015901d6beb8$184763c0$48d62b40$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa0epPotvD7dzRO41e6nw-1wPBXWYgi3VcSJZYYgNTiug@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d201d6bea2$177102f0$465308d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbU3c+JciYk2wk=hgjh=31Gq1-6x1=_G9UK6HWR3pyreg@mail.gmail.com>
 <011801d6beaf$ae890d60$0b9b2820$@rainier66.com>
 <015901d6beb8$184763c0$48d62b40$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEa+4_3K4Ec3N45BfsGycgkyqQg-F0jzFN=szdNjxEv+bg@mail.gmail.com>

plastics - whoever invents biodegradable ones will be superrich - ditto the
person who invents a spray we can use on the floating islands of plastic
flotsam and jetsam in the Pacific for them to degrade harmlessly -ditto for
degradable styrofoam.  bill w

On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 3:10 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com>
> *?*
>
>
>
> >?Where I was going with that thought experiment: go one level up.  The
> guy right upstream of the packaging guy is the one who runs the injection
> molding machine.  She is given the mold pieces, usually two for this kind
> of end product, and mounts them into the device, sets every dial, and hits
> start.  spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> OK go one level up again.  Someone had to make the mold pieces to give to
> the technician to mount in the injection molding machine.  That to me is
> the best job of all, because it is a fun interesting inventor?s job.  That
> person must decide what kind of mold would be the right thing and how to
> design it.
>
>
>
> Whenever I see something like a plastic turkey being used to sell gas
> grills, I look closely at that plastic device and learn much every time I
> examine one.  I don?t see a replica of a turkey, I see a piece of marketing
> equipment that must be manufactured in moderately low quantities (perhaps
> 10 thousand units (because every household doesn?t want a plastic turkey))
> and wonder about the manufacturing process to bring it into existence.
>
>
>
> For instance?
>
>
>
> In 1962, Dustin Hoffman?s character in The Graduate was given the advice
> to go into plastics.  He didn?t want to, thought that would be so boring.
> It isn?t!  That isn?t boring at all.  If he took one day or even one hour
> to look into plastics, he woulda had a great career rather than wasting his
> talent making movies.  OK so I like Dustin Hoffman?s work so he is a
> special case, but still.
>
>
>
> For instance? you have examples of stuff all over your house made of
> thermal-setting plastic, nearly all of them acrylonitrile butadiene styrene
> (ABS) or some chemical close cousin of ABS:
>
>
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrylonitrile_butadiene_styrene
>
>
>
> which include things like milk jugs and shampoo bottles and that kind of
> stuff, low cost, easy to make in quantity, durable, etc.  Since I named
> those two ABS examples, pls go examine them right now and tell me what you
> see.  Did you notice the seam?  Both of those and anything made of ABS or
> any injection-molded plastic will always have those seams, and most of the
> time they are easy to find.
>
>
>
> OK then, what about that seam?  And what about the two pieces on either
> side of that seam please?  What did you notice about the seam itself and
> the two pieces?  What does that tell you about how that item was designed?
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201119/6776a3e5/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Nov 19 21:36:56 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 13:36:56 -0800
Subject: [ExI] plastic turkeys
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEa+4_3K4Ec3N45BfsGycgkyqQg-F0jzFN=szdNjxEv+bg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa0epPotvD7dzRO41e6nw-1wPBXWYgi3VcSJZYYgNTiug@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d201d6bea2$177102f0$465308d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbU3c+JciYk2wk=hgjh=31Gq1-6x1=_G9UK6HWR3pyreg@mail.gmail.com>
 <011801d6beaf$ae890d60$0b9b2820$@rainier66.com>
 <015901d6beb8$184763c0$48d62b40$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa+4_3K4Ec3N45BfsGycgkyqQg-F0jzFN=szdNjxEv+bg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <017401d6bebc$1b4fec00$51efc400$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 1:19 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] plastic turkeys

 

>?plastics - whoever invents biodegradable ones will be superrich - ditto the person who invents a spray we can use on the floating islands of plastic flotsam and jetsam in the Pacific for them to degrade harmlessly -ditto for degradable styrofoam.  bill w

 

 

Of course.  We have that now: there are materials we can add to the ABS during manufacturing to make it break down over time.  The problem is that it starts breaking down the minute it comes off of the machine.  Perhaps you recall the biodegradable trash bags.  If you do, and if you didn?t use them right away, you already know why those didn?t last long in the grocery stores.

 

Regarding the seams on your shampoo bottle and milk jug, what did you see?

 

spike

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201119/658e6c90/attachment-0001.htm>

From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Nov 19 21:50:15 2020
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 21:50:15 +0000
Subject: [ExI] plastic turkeys
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEa+4_3K4Ec3N45BfsGycgkyqQg-F0jzFN=szdNjxEv+bg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa0epPotvD7dzRO41e6nw-1wPBXWYgi3VcSJZYYgNTiug@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d201d6bea2$177102f0$465308d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbU3c+JciYk2wk=hgjh=31Gq1-6x1=_G9UK6HWR3pyreg@mail.gmail.com>
 <011801d6beaf$ae890d60$0b9b2820$@rainier66.com>
 <015901d6beb8$184763c0$48d62b40$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa+4_3K4Ec3N45BfsGycgkyqQg-F0jzFN=szdNjxEv+bg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjR_jqzOFiV0S4f-hU5bC1uPDNS8H6Miv2F53u5vD3esQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 19 Nov 2020 at 21:24, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> plastics - whoever invents biodegradable ones will be superrich - ditto the person who invents a spray we can use on the floating islands of plastic flotsam and jetsam in the Pacific for them to degrade harmlessly -ditto for degradable styrofoam.  bill w
> ______________________________________________


What you suggest is correct. The Great Pacific Garbage Patch does
exist. (Actually it is two patches, the East and West patches). But
they are not floating islands - you can't actually see them.  :)

<https://www.nationalgeographic.org/encyclopedia/great-pacific-garbage-patch/>
Quote:
The amount of debris in the Great Pacific Garbage Patch accumulates
because much of it is not biodegradable. Many plastics, for instance,
do not wear down; they simply break into tinier and tinier pieces.

For many people, the idea of a ?garbage patch? conjures up images of
an island of trash floating on the ocean. In reality, these patches
are almost entirely made up of tiny bits of plastic, called
microplastics. Microplastics can?t always be seen by the naked eye.
Even satellite imagery doesn?t show a giant patch of garbage. The
microplastics of the Great Pacific Garbage Patch can simply make the
water look like a cloudy soup.
-----------------

The horrifying piles of plastic garbage that are frequently
photographed come from harbours and beaches before they have had time
to disintegrate into tiny microplastic fragments.



BillK


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 19 22:59:29 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 16:59:29 -0600
Subject: [ExI] plastic turkeys
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjR_jqzOFiV0S4f-hU5bC1uPDNS8H6Miv2F53u5vD3esQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa0epPotvD7dzRO41e6nw-1wPBXWYgi3VcSJZYYgNTiug@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d201d6bea2$177102f0$465308d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbU3c+JciYk2wk=hgjh=31Gq1-6x1=_G9UK6HWR3pyreg@mail.gmail.com>
 <011801d6beaf$ae890d60$0b9b2820$@rainier66.com>
 <015901d6beb8$184763c0$48d62b40$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa+4_3K4Ec3N45BfsGycgkyqQg-F0jzFN=szdNjxEv+bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjR_jqzOFiV0S4f-hU5bC1uPDNS8H6Miv2F53u5vD3esQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaB3XbtLbyD7Z=jkUcaE9Y+uT7g1+O4k5SZnzP_Nm9LKA@mail.gmail.com>

thanks for the plastic info - bill w

On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 3:52 PM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Thu, 19 Nov 2020 at 21:24, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > plastics - whoever invents biodegradable ones will be superrich - ditto
> the person who invents a spray we can use on the floating islands of
> plastic flotsam and jetsam in the Pacific for them to degrade harmlessly
> -ditto for degradable styrofoam.  bill w
> > ______________________________________________
>
>
> What you suggest is correct. The Great Pacific Garbage Patch does
> exist. (Actually it is two patches, the East and West patches). But
> they are not floating islands - you can't actually see them.  :)
>
> <
> https://www.nationalgeographic.org/encyclopedia/great-pacific-garbage-patch/
> >
> Quote:
> The amount of debris in the Great Pacific Garbage Patch accumulates
> because much of it is not biodegradable. Many plastics, for instance,
> do not wear down; they simply break into tinier and tinier pieces.
>
> For many people, the idea of a ?garbage patch? conjures up images of
> an island of trash floating on the ocean. In reality, these patches
> are almost entirely made up of tiny bits of plastic, called
> microplastics. Microplastics can?t always be seen by the naked eye.
> Even satellite imagery doesn?t show a giant patch of garbage. The
> microplastics of the Great Pacific Garbage Patch can simply make the
> water look like a cloudy soup.
> -----------------
>
> The horrifying piles of plastic garbage that are frequently
> photographed come from harbours and beaches before they have had time
> to disintegrate into tiny microplastic fragments.
>
>
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201119/d5921444/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 19 23:00:12 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 17:00:12 -0600
Subject: [ExI] plastic turkeys
In-Reply-To: <017401d6bebc$1b4fec00$51efc400$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa0epPotvD7dzRO41e6nw-1wPBXWYgi3VcSJZYYgNTiug@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d201d6bea2$177102f0$465308d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbU3c+JciYk2wk=hgjh=31Gq1-6x1=_G9UK6HWR3pyreg@mail.gmail.com>
 <011801d6beaf$ae890d60$0b9b2820$@rainier66.com>
 <015901d6beb8$184763c0$48d62b40$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa+4_3K4Ec3N45BfsGycgkyqQg-F0jzFN=szdNjxEv+bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <017401d6bebc$1b4fec00$51efc400$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZa=4R_ZveS=BHiXKnyT68vVK05OyVNqY4jOf3wrFtmQQ@mail.gmail.com>

See?  Nothing that I can make sense of.  bill w

On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 3:38 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 19, 2020 1:19 PM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] plastic turkeys
>
>
>
> >?plastics - whoever invents biodegradable ones will be superrich - ditto
> the person who invents a spray we can use on the floating islands of
> plastic flotsam and jetsam in the Pacific for them to degrade harmlessly
> -ditto for degradable styrofoam.  bill w
>
>
>
>
>
> Of course.  We have that now: there are materials we can add to the ABS
> during manufacturing to make it break down over time.  The problem is that
> it starts breaking down the minute it comes off of the machine.  Perhaps
> you recall the biodegradable trash bags.  If you do, and if you didn?t use
> them right away, you already know why those didn?t last long in the grocery
> stores.
>
>
>
> Regarding the seams on your shampoo bottle and milk jug, what did you see?
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201119/b51250d2/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Nov 19 23:56:43 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 15:56:43 -0800
Subject: [ExI] plastic turkeys
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZa=4R_ZveS=BHiXKnyT68vVK05OyVNqY4jOf3wrFtmQQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa0epPotvD7dzRO41e6nw-1wPBXWYgi3VcSJZYYgNTiug@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d201d6bea2$177102f0$465308d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbU3c+JciYk2wk=hgjh=31Gq1-6x1=_G9UK6HWR3pyreg@mail.gmail.com>
 <011801d6beaf$ae890d60$0b9b2820$@rainier66.com>
 <015901d6beb8$184763c0$48d62b40$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa+4_3K4Ec3N45BfsGycgkyqQg-F0jzFN=szdNjxEv+bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <017401d6bebc$1b4fec00$51efc400$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZa=4R_ZveS=BHiXKnyT68vVK05OyVNqY4jOf3wrFtmQQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002801d6becf$a217ba20$e6472e60$@rainier66.com>

 

 

 

 

>>?Regarding the seams on your shampoo bottle and milk jug, what did you see?

spike

 

 

> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] plastic turkeys

 

>?See?  Nothing that I can make sense of.  bill w

 

 

 

If you put that seam under a microscope, it would look like a ridge but not a groove.  This is important, for that seam is the site on which two similar mold halves were fused together.  The reason that is important is that there is more material along the fusion site than elsewhere, for that process of fusing the two pieces after the initial thermal-setting does not create the same number of bonds as the initial injection mold process.

 

If you take an empty milk jug, fill it with water, take it out in the front yard and hurl it into the air, good chance it will not rupture.  You will come away with new respect for ABS: marvelous stuff.  But if you take it up to the fourth floor and hurl it to the ground, it will rupture.  If those seams did not contain extra material, the jug would rupture into two halves along that seam.  So? they compression-fuse it in such a way that there is more material on the seam.

 

Next, note that the two fused pieces are mirror images.  This is done for a reason.  If a weak spot from stress concentration in one side is discovered, the other side has that too for the same reason.  Both can be fixed by the same process.

 

Lesson: there is a lot of science in ABS plastic.  The guy who designs the mold to create those plastic turkeys has a great job.  She gets to use science and engineering in her job every day.

 

spike

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201119/8f6fb4e4/attachment.htm>

From bronto at pobox.com  Fri Nov 20 00:34:48 2020
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 16:34:48 -0800
Subject: [ExI] plastic turkeys
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy3ZbrN9PvAYT-KeuCvdBuTwD3v2vFVM+MBVXLEzWjDJWw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa0epPotvD7dzRO41e6nw-1wPBXWYgi3VcSJZYYgNTiug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2eRB8aYCj371eQeZwesw8pMZ5ZhV7_yPDoa+Zx49hRVng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZHPD8+R8fjozcRBfrYQTNzAgb4ZWxEGhA2LXUqr0E0ew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy3ZbrN9PvAYT-KeuCvdBuTwD3v2vFVM+MBVXLEzWjDJWw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cf0362de-32e6-3591-9093-08343ddfc079@pobox.com>

On 2020-11-19 11:04, John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote:
> I have been tested by Mensa and I was a little below
> what they require for a basic membership.

Are there tiers of membership?

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 20 00:42:49 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 18:42:49 -0600
Subject: [ExI] plastic turkeys
In-Reply-To: <002801d6becf$a217ba20$e6472e60$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa0epPotvD7dzRO41e6nw-1wPBXWYgi3VcSJZYYgNTiug@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d201d6bea2$177102f0$465308d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbU3c+JciYk2wk=hgjh=31Gq1-6x1=_G9UK6HWR3pyreg@mail.gmail.com>
 <011801d6beaf$ae890d60$0b9b2820$@rainier66.com>
 <015901d6beb8$184763c0$48d62b40$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa+4_3K4Ec3N45BfsGycgkyqQg-F0jzFN=szdNjxEv+bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <017401d6bebc$1b4fec00$51efc400$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZa=4R_ZveS=BHiXKnyT68vVK05OyVNqY4jOf3wrFtmQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002801d6becf$a217ba20$e6472e60$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYDqcWU5uZhfUC5jmFy0yoRre2Vk_Vcd-f0_5NqHKWHYQ@mail.gmail.com>

TMI    bill w

On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 5:58 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >>?Regarding the seams on your shampoo bottle and milk jug, what did you
> see?
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
> > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] plastic turkeys
>
>
>
> >?See?  Nothing that I can make sense of.  bill w
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> If you put that seam under a microscope, it would look like a ridge but
> not a groove.  This is important, for that seam is the site on which two
> similar mold halves were fused together.  The reason that is important is
> that there is more material along the fusion site than elsewhere, for that
> process of fusing the two pieces after the initial thermal-setting does not
> create the same number of bonds as the initial injection mold process.
>
>
>
> If you take an empty milk jug, fill it with water, take it out in the
> front yard and hurl it into the air, good chance it will not rupture.  You
> will come away with new respect for ABS: marvelous stuff.  But if you take
> it up to the fourth floor and hurl it to the ground, it will rupture.  If
> those seams did not contain extra material, the jug would rupture into two
> halves along that seam.  So? they compression-fuse it in such a way that
> there is more material on the seam.
>
>
>
> Next, note that the two fused pieces are mirror images.  This is done for
> a reason.  If a weak spot from stress concentration in one side is
> discovered, the other side has that too for the same reason.  Both can be
> fixed by the same process.
>
>
>
> Lesson: there is a lot of science in ABS plastic.  The guy who designs the
> mold to create those plastic turkeys has a great job.  She gets to use
> science and engineering in her job every day.
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201119/fdc186cf/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 20 07:20:33 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 15:20:33 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Eventbrite/Zoom addiction!
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaB+i4mjSzJr8EBCoiKier_N2VpZKw+Ca_uvKwqzLbJcQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy2P8YKiwM9jTu2BjOnJU4Cg-3N+iTt3bC=tLx-O+pzEbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaB+i4mjSzJr8EBCoiKier_N2VpZKw+Ca_uvKwqzLbJcQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1BtsiyTjuVAZ7uwMRdJBZg0oALFe++czQ-arGBza1ysw@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Your post led me to think of this:  what things not even thought in the
> near past do we have now that have no relationship to advances in science
> or technology?  In your post you mention life coaches.  I think that's a
> good example, but right off hand, I cannot think of any more.
>
> I assume a life coach is a generalist, not a specialist like people who
> give advice on jobs or investments or buying a car.  bill w
>

I would say life coaching is actually a good example of a profession being
enhanced by technology. It did exist before video calls and social media,
but due to these innovations, life coaches can now connect with clients
from around the world, and have an easier time growing their careers and
making a living.

A life coach is a generalist, but keep in mind that this is not a formally
accredited field which is monitored/controlled by various government and
private agencies, such as being a psychologist or social worker. Life
coaches make it clear that they do not give psychological counseling for
serious problems, but instead help basically healthy people set and achieve
goals, and in general, get more out of their lives. The personal
backgrounds of life coaches can vary hugely, and most training courses only
take a few months, and cost anywhere from a few hundred to a few thousand
dollars. And again, they are not certified by a government agency for
quality. I think people like going to life coaches, because of the focus on
growth, the relative low cost, and the lack of stigma. I have an English
life coach who is a prosperous and retired IT guy, who likes helping others
now that he has made it, while the other one, is a relatively young
African-American man who comes from a rough background, and has his own
unique life perspectives.

I have played with the idea of perhaps someday becoming a life coach
myself, most likely just as a part-time thing. And I might combine it with
hypno-therapy, as a number of life coaches do. People seem to open up to
me, anyway, so I think it might fit with my talents. The advantage of it is
that it's very easy to get started, but at the same time, they lack the
educational/professional skills and insights of trained psychologists or
social workers.

John

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 2:55 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Your post led me to think of this:  what things not even thought in the
> near past do we have now that have no relationship to advances in science
> or technology?  In your post you mention life coaches.  I think that's a
> good example, but right off hand, I cannot think of any more.
>
> I assume a life coach is a generalist, not a specialist like people who
> give advice on jobs or investments or buying a car.  bill w
>
> On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 9:20 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> I have definitely gotten addicted to Eventbrite and the innumerable
>> variety of interactive events their search engine gathers up for me to view
>> on Zoom. I have signed up for well over 100 of them, with most occurring
>> this month or next! I am actually losing sleep at times because of great
>> stuff which happens in England, which is an area Eventbrite algorithms like
>> to assign me. I love the historical and performing arts stuff which they
>> offer, along with the wonderful accents. Last night I did a science fiction
>> improv with a bunch of English young people, which was great fun and made
>> me sort of feel like I was attending Hogwarts University (they were mostly
>> in their early twenties). When I attended a couple of panels on British
>> start-ups, for some reason the engineering guy was always Scottish with a
>> thick brogue! Lol One such gentleman talked about how he worked on several
>> James Bond films years ago, to help create the cool gadgets Q gave to the
>> master spy.  Finally, I have connected with some good crypto folks who I
>> think will steer me right, and I also now have not one, but two personal
>> life coaches!
>>
>> John  :  )
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201120/3afa1884/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 20 07:35:31 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 15:35:31 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Arecibo radio telescope to be closed down
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armi4q91N-FtnYGmfGjhP6xEhmVjfH2-MstaRVtPbO9g2dg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi4q91N-FtnYGmfGjhP6xEhmVjfH2-MstaRVtPbO9g2dg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy2+Bfqk8cTbP6RgAq2bYXu0F33e8coiVXkFn0rMQxZArw@mail.gmail.com>

Reading the Space.com article about the tragedy made me wonder if a century
from now, people will be lamenting about a space elevator which is coming
apart... Now that would be an epic spectacle of disturbing proportions!

And if they have not already, I suspect China will build a radio telescope
equal or even superior to Arecibo...

John

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 3:57 AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Arecibo radio telescope, an icon of astronomy, is lost
> By Meghan Bartels - Space.com Senior Writer  Nov 19, 2020
>
> Arecibo Telescope's illustrious scientific career is over.
> <https://www.space.com/arecibo-observatory-radio-telescope-to-be-destroyed
> >
>
> Quote:
> The National Science Foundation (NSF) will decommission Arecibo
> Observatory's massive radio dish after damage has made the facility
> too dangerous to repair, the agency announced today (Nov. 19).
>
> The announcement came as scientists awaited a verdict about the fate
> of the iconic observatory after damage to the complex cabling
> supporting a 900-ton science platform suspended over the dish.
> ---------------
>
> This is a big loss to science.  :(
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201120/a0a31b2c/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 20 07:50:45 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 15:50:45 +0800
Subject: [ExI] occupation and IQ - two data sets
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEb2iM4xsTz07LuTusXwjiMBChnY5tttZ+rA5bu5z9aiWA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb2iM4xsTz07LuTusXwjiMBChnY5tttZ+rA5bu5z9aiWA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3Ho8auQa_W=jpBo_v+npXTPbzxpuMZAA1G-mVHN96KeQ@mail.gmail.com>

The results of the IQ comparison site mildly surprised me. It seemed to
indicate the average managerial or non-academic teaching position may
require more mental power than I would have thought. But engineers don't
hit the 130 IQ tier, but generally professors do? I find that a bit off,
though I do realize many academics are very bright people. I've read that
military officers usually get higher results from IQ tests than executives
in corporate America. I find that fact very interesting and not really
surprising.

I'd like to see an IQ breakdown among medical doctors, to see how IQ
affects their career specialization, income and performance. And then see
something similar done for lawyers and engineers.

John

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 5:18 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> https://www.quora.com/How-do-the-average-IQs-rank-by-profession-Which-professions-have-the-highest-IQs
>
> https://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/Occupations.aspx
>
> Some interesting differences between the two sets;  for one, the IQs are
> rather lower in the second set. I can certainly agree with the one with the
> professors at the top??  bill w
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201120/157d0d95/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 20 09:05:43 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 17:05:43 +0800
Subject: [ExI] A 3D Printed Apartment Building Is Going Up in Germany
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy2qS_uzZ68v7oPexY10j2dCqb49oq6D3QT=Mx_xBPBwCw@mail.gmail.com>

"3D printing <https://singularityhub.com/tag/3d-printing/> is making
strides in the construction industry. In just a couple years we?ve seen the
tech produce single-family homes
<https://singularityhub.com/2018/03/18/this-3d-printed-house-goes-up-in-a-day-for-under-10000/>
in a day, entire communities
<https://singularityhub.com/2019/12/11/a-community-of-50-3d-printed-homes-is-under-construction-in-mexico/>
of homes for people in need, large municipal buildings
<https://singularityhub.com/2020/01/27/worlds-biggest-3d-printed-building-opens-in-dubai/>,
and even an egg-shaped concept home for Mars
<https://singularityhub.com/2020/07/09/the-3d-printed-homes-of-the-future-are-giant-eggs-on-mars/>
(oh, and let?s not forget the 3D printed boats
<https://singularityhub.com/2019/11/14/this-boat-was-3d-printed-and-bigger-wilder-projects-will-soon-follow/>
and cars
<https://singularityhub.com/2018/04/01/this-3d-printed-electric-car-will-enter-production-this-year/>
of the world!).

Another impressive feat will soon be added to this list, as a German
construction company has begun work on a 3D printed three-story apartment
building.

Located north-west of Munich in a town called Wallenhausen, when completed
the building will have five separate apartments and a total square footage
of 4,090. The project is a collaboration between PERI Group
<https://www.peri.com/en>, a German supplier of formwork and scaffolding
systems, and COBOD <https://cobod.com/>, a Danish company that makes
modular 3D printers for construction (and recently partnered with GE to 3D
print the bases of 650-foot-tall wind turbines
<https://singularityhub.com/2020/06/21/ge-will-3d-print-the-bases-of-wind-turbines-taller-than-seattles-space-needle/>
!)."
https://singularityhub.com/2020/11/19/a-3d-printed-apartment-building-is-going-up-in-germany/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201120/14c34c3b/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 20 09:12:56 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 17:12:56 +0800
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?This_Is_How_We=E2=80=99ll_Engineer_Artificial_To?=
 =?utf-8?q?uch?=
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1FpMkrfeWo0Sq2_trPHgQwuDXpij0iyAS4=kpf49XU6Q@mail.gmail.com>

"In a new article <https://science.sciencemag.org/content/370/6518/768> in
*Science*, Dr. Subramanian Sundaram at Boston and Harvard University argues
that it?s high time to rethink robotic touch. Scientists have long dreamed
of artificially engineering robotic hands with the same dexterity and
feedback that we have. Now, after decades, we?re at the precipice of a
breakthrough thanks to two major advances. One, we better understand how
touch works in humans. Two, we have the mega computational powerhouse
called machine learning
<https://singularityhub.com/2020/05/17/openai-finds-machine-learning-efficiency-is-outpacing-moores-law/>
to recapitulate biology in silicon.

Robotic hands with a sense of touch?and the AI
<https://singularityhub.com/tag/artificial-intelligence/> brain to match
it?could overhaul our idea of robots. Rather than charming, if somewhat
clumsy, novelties, robots equipped with human-like hands are far more
capable of routine tasks?making food, folding laundry?and specialized
missions like surgery or rescue. But machines aren?t the only ones to gain.
For humans, robotic prosthetic hands equipped with accurate, sensitive, and
high-resolution artificial touch is the next giant breakthrough to
seamlessly link a biological brain to a mechanical hand."
https://singularityhub.com/2020/11/17/this-is-how-well-engineer-artificial-touch/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201120/894fa8c5/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 20 09:19:46 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 17:19:46 +0800
Subject: [ExI] There Could Be 300 Million (or More) Earth-Like Planets in
 Our Galaxy
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy2+mak7W_Q2L_xdNp4UuGqZZLW1wrE0H6k54GFvY64axg@mail.gmail.com>

"Taking the paper?s most conservative lower bound, 7 per cent of the
galaxy?s estimated 4 billion sun-like stars
<https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/05/science/astronomy-exoplanets-kepler.html>
could have an Earth-like planet in the habitable zone. That translates to a
population of *at least* 300 million
<https://exoplanets.nasa.gov/news/1664/about-half-of-sun-like-stars-could-host-rocky-potentially-habitable-planets/>
such planets in the Milky Way. With warp drive and a map, that?s a
potentially habitable planet for every 26 people in the world. (Indeed, 4
such planets could be within 30 light years of the sun, the closest within
20 light years.)

The key word here is *potentially*.

This may be our best guess at eta-Earth yet, but as all the dependencies
should make clear, it?ll likely be a moving target for years to come.
Though the calculation narrows the bands of uncertainty, those bands are
still quite wide. Perhaps the greatest contributor to this is the fact
researchers are extrapolating from a very small population of planets."
https://singularityhub.com/2020/11/08/there-could-be-300-million-or-more-earth-like-planets-in-our-galaxy/\
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201120/afc2ee0e/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 20 09:24:39 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 17:24:39 +0800
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Can_We_Wipe_Out_All_Coronaviruses_for_Good=3F_He?=
	=?utf-8?q?re=E2=80=99s_What_a_Group_of_200_Scientists_Think?=
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3YTX8KpxvRMd=kPLT1yVonhZDyMaVwZExACj7-xfuJtA@mail.gmail.com>

"But if the pandemic has taught us anything, it?s that we have to fight back
<https://singularityhub.com/2020/04/10/a-new-pandemic-playbook-so-next-time-were-ready/>.
Not reactively, but proactively.

The study paints two roads towards a hopeful future. With one, it showed
how global collaboration rapidly merged theoretic and lab studies with
existing clinical data. In practical terms? Faster identification,
approval, and deployment of existing drugs against a new coronavirus strain.

The other road is rockier but with an even brighter end. The team basically
drew up a scientific recipe to potentially end coronaviruses once and for
all. This is just the beginning. But as Dr. Pedro Beltrao, a study leader
at EMBL?s European Bioinformatics Institute, said
<https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/10/418796/international-team-scientists-identifies-common-vulnerabilities-across>,
?After more than a century of relatively harmless coronaviruses, in the
last 20 years we have had three coronaviruses which have been deadly?We
have the capability to predict pan-coronavirus therapeutics that may be
effective in treating the current pandemic, which we believe will also
offer therapeutic promise for a future coronavirus as well.?

https://singularityhub.com/2020/10/27/can-we-wipe-out-all-coronaviruses-for-good-heres-what-a-group-of-200-scientists-think/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201120/53aa2992/attachment-0001.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 20 10:44:33 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 18:44:33 +0800
Subject: [ExI] plastic turkeys
In-Reply-To: <cf0362de-32e6-3591-9093-08343ddfc079@pobox.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa0epPotvD7dzRO41e6nw-1wPBXWYgi3VcSJZYYgNTiug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2eRB8aYCj371eQeZwesw8pMZ5ZhV7_yPDoa+Zx49hRVng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZHPD8+R8fjozcRBfrYQTNzAgb4ZWxEGhA2LXUqr0E0ew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy3ZbrN9PvAYT-KeuCvdBuTwD3v2vFVM+MBVXLEzWjDJWw@mail.gmail.com>
 <cf0362de-32e6-3591-9093-08343ddfc079@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy0iQnrD8gT_dxB=Li9YUnshVxH=zFxgqukg-hJJ=B2q2Q@mail.gmail.com>

Anton Sherwood wrote:
"Are there tiers of membership?"

My understanding is that Mensa members can take further tests to confirm
having a higher IQ than what is required to simply get in the door. And so
some join and associate with these "higher ranks of the intellect."
Mensans, like transhumanists and cryonicists, like forming all sorts of
groups under a common banner.

There are also other organizations with similar aims and structure along
the lines of Mensa. But some of them are vastly more exclusive/difficult to
join because the membership IQ requirements are far more demanding. The
Prometheus Society has an entry test which generally only 1 in 30,000
people will pass. By comparison, 1 in 50 people can pass the Mensa entry
test. And so Mensa has over 100,000 members globally, while The Prometheus
Society has only around 100...

I'm waiting for someone to create an even more demanding organization,
which only about 1 in a billion people will qualify to join! They will only
have around half a dozen members at any time, and the name will be, "The We
Are So Much Smarter Than Everyone Else Society!" Lol They will crash the
events of other high IQ groups, and mock them for being such intellectual
dullards...

John  ;  )

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 8:37 AM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On 2020-11-19 11:04, John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote:
> > I have been tested by Mensa and I was a little below
> > what they require for a basic membership.
>
> Are there tiers of membership?
>
> --
> *\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201120/499cf867/attachment.htm>

From hibbard at wisc.edu  Fri Nov 20 12:56:41 2020
From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 06:56:41 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [ExI] occupation and IQ - two data sets
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.2011200653350.13998@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>

> I'd like to see an IQ breakdown among medical doctors, ...

Brings to mind the old med school joke that an orthopedic
surgeon is as strong as an ox and twice as smart.

From sparge at gmail.com  Fri Nov 20 13:04:03 2020
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 08:04:03 -0500
Subject: [ExI] plastic turkeys
In-Reply-To: <002801d6becf$a217ba20$e6472e60$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa0epPotvD7dzRO41e6nw-1wPBXWYgi3VcSJZYYgNTiug@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d201d6bea2$177102f0$465308d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbU3c+JciYk2wk=hgjh=31Gq1-6x1=_G9UK6HWR3pyreg@mail.gmail.com>
 <011801d6beaf$ae890d60$0b9b2820$@rainier66.com>
 <015901d6beb8$184763c0$48d62b40$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa+4_3K4Ec3N45BfsGycgkyqQg-F0jzFN=szdNjxEv+bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <017401d6bebc$1b4fec00$51efc400$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZa=4R_ZveS=BHiXKnyT68vVK05OyVNqY4jOf3wrFtmQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002801d6becf$a217ba20$e6472e60$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2c7Z9+EON4MpxEnUQyWL3X6zRML9TXTzKEzywGu1yVAVg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 6:58 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> If you put that seam under a microscope, it would look like a ridge but
> not a groove.  This is important, for that seam is the site on which two
> similar mold halves were fused together.  The reason that is important is
> that there is more material along the fusion site than elsewhere, for that
> process of fusing the two pieces after the initial thermal-setting does not
> create the same number of bonds as the initial injection mold process.
>

Except...most plastic bottles are blow molded. The "seam" is just where the
two halves of the mold meet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8W6P5KU5ONQ

-Dave
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201120/d3fecafb/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Nov 20 13:39:29 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 05:39:29 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Eventbrite/Zoom addiction!
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy1BtsiyTjuVAZ7uwMRdJBZg0oALFe++czQ-arGBza1ysw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy2P8YKiwM9jTu2BjOnJU4Cg-3N+iTt3bC=tLx-O+pzEbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaB+i4mjSzJr8EBCoiKier_N2VpZKw+Ca_uvKwqzLbJcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy1BtsiyTjuVAZ7uwMRdJBZg0oALFe++czQ-arGBza1ysw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007e01d6bf42$93313270$b9939750$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of John Grigg via extropy-chat
?

 

>?I assume a life coach is a generalist, not a specialist like people who give advice on jobs or investments or buying a car.  bill w

 

>?I would say life coaching is actually a good example of a profession being enhanced by technology. It did exist before video calls and social media, but due to these innovations, life coaches can now connect with clients from around the world, and have an easier time growing their careers and making a living?.John

 

 

We already do this in Boy Scouts.  We have a network of parent volunteers who counsel the guys and talk about whatever they want to learn, never one on one, but anything including stuff outside of scouting, such as time management, buying a car (my specialty) college advice, that kinda thing.  Scouts are a joy to work with: they are already motivated.  It is easy to motivate those who take the initiative, come to the adult, ask questions and listen to your answers.  I can help save them from plenty of goofball mistakes, one of the most serious ones being to choose the wrong first car.

 

Regarding college choices, oh this is a tricky time for students.  Our world is in a rapid transition time, but it isn?t entirely clear where we are transitioning to.

 

spike

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201120/806f12f8/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Nov 20 13:45:29 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 05:45:29 -0800
Subject: [ExI] occupation and IQ - two data sets
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy3Ho8auQa_W=jpBo_v+npXTPbzxpuMZAA1G-mVHN96KeQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb2iM4xsTz07LuTusXwjiMBChnY5tttZ+rA5bu5z9aiWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy3Ho8auQa_W=jpBo_v+npXTPbzxpuMZAA1G-mVHN96KeQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008501d6bf43$6935b5d0$3ba12170$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?.> On Behalf Of John Grigg via extropy-chat

Subject: Re: [ExI] occupation and IQ - two data sets

 

>? I've read that military officers usually get higher results from IQ tests than executives in corporate America. I find that fact very interesting and not really surprising?John 

 

John I would be surprised if it came out any other way.  The military is really good about figuring out who they have, what they can do, discovering their talents, training them to their potential but not beyond.  

 

If you get to know officers, you come away very impressed with them as a group, more than one does with doctors as a group.  I don?t recall meeting any dummies among the ossifers in many years of working with them.  This characteristic makes retired officers highly desirable employees in any corporation.

 

spike

 

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201120/a3338f04/attachment.htm>

From ben at zaiboc.net  Fri Nov 20 13:47:31 2020
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 13:47:31 +0000
Subject: [ExI] plastic turkeys
In-Reply-To: <mailman.132.1605821831.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.132.1605821831.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <a318c15c-a3d8-6247-77ba-91b3f2e43b70@zaiboc.net>

On 19/11/2020 21:37, John Grigg wrote:
> I am actually frustrated with my mother because she attended Columbia 
> University, but did not find a father for me there, who would have 
> most likely provided quality genes for high intelligence. Instead she 
> found a "bad boy" who was tall, handsome and entertaining, a war vet, 
> but of very average intelligence, though street smart. And yet I did 
> not even inherit his movie star good looks, despite him being my sperm 
> donor, and the one who most likely constrained my intellectual 
> abilities. His brothers were all very bright, but not him. One of them 
> is even in the IBM Hall of Fame. But then I must remember that every 
> conception is a big roll of the genetic dice... I could have come out 
> very different, in either a good/superior or a sad/horrific way...

John, the way I see it is that whoever that hypothetical different 
person would be, they wouldn't be you. That's my answer whenever I'm 
asked if I ever regret anything I've done in my life. If I had done 
things differently, I would have turned out different, and that 
different person wouldn't be who I am now.

No regrets, either about what you did or how you came to be. Be thankful 
(to yourself) to have turned out as you.

I'm not, of course, saying don't strive to better yourself (that would, 
on this list, be blasphemy :-D ), just don't have any bad feelings about 
things in the past.

-- 
Ben Zaiboc


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 20 14:26:17 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 08:26:17 -0600
Subject: [ExI] plastic turkeys
In-Reply-To: <a318c15c-a3d8-6247-77ba-91b3f2e43b70@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.132.1605821831.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <a318c15c-a3d8-6247-77ba-91b3f2e43b70@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZVqOXyGsSUtkMZ+o4TcuH0nunBVhojpqA5OVp4Mh8Stw@mail.gmail.com>

 just don't have any bad feelings about
things in the past. Ben Zaiboc

*These are wise words.  Since I 'discovered' forgiveness, of myself and
others, a few decades ago,life is simpler, calmer, free of grudges and
guilt.  I've had problems in my life, like everybody, and have not needed
therapy as such, but things seemed to hang around my mind.  Ghosts of the
past - I blew them away.  "Things you can, change, things you can't change,
etc. etc. and the wisdom to know the difference"   Love that quote.    bill
w*

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 7:53 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On 19/11/2020 21:37, John Grigg wrote:
> > I am actually frustrated with my mother because she attended Columbia
> > University, but did not find a father for me there, who would have
> > most likely provided quality genes for high intelligence. Instead she
> > found a "bad boy" who was tall, handsome and entertaining, a war vet,
> > but of very average intelligence, though street smart. And yet I did
> > not even inherit his movie star good looks, despite him being my sperm
> > donor, and the one who most likely constrained my intellectual
> > abilities. His brothers were all very bright, but not him. One of them
> > is even in the IBM Hall of Fame. But then I must remember that every
> > conception is a big roll of the genetic dice... I could have come out
> > very different, in either a good/superior or a sad/horrific way...
>
> John, the way I see it is that whoever that hypothetical different
> person would be, they wouldn't be you. That's my answer whenever I'm
> asked if I ever regret anything I've done in my life. If I had done
> things differently, I would have turned out different, and that
> different person wouldn't be who I am now.
>
> No regrets, either about what you did or how you came to be. Be thankful
> (to yourself) to have turned out as you.
>
> I'm not, of course, saying don't strive to better yourself (that would,
> on this list, be blasphemy :-D ), just don't have any bad feelings about
> things in the past.
>
> --
> Ben Zaiboc
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201120/71fc9141/attachment.htm>

From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Nov 20 15:33:35 2020
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 07:33:35 -0800
Subject: [ExI] plastic turkeys
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy0iQnrD8gT_dxB=Li9YUnshVxH=zFxgqukg-hJJ=B2q2Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa0epPotvD7dzRO41e6nw-1wPBXWYgi3VcSJZYYgNTiug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2eRB8aYCj371eQeZwesw8pMZ5ZhV7_yPDoa+Zx49hRVng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZHPD8+R8fjozcRBfrYQTNzAgb4ZWxEGhA2LXUqr0E0ew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy3ZbrN9PvAYT-KeuCvdBuTwD3v2vFVM+MBVXLEzWjDJWw@mail.gmail.com>
 <cf0362de-32e6-3591-9093-08343ddfc079@pobox.com>
 <CAGSKFy0iQnrD8gT_dxB=Li9YUnshVxH=zFxgqukg-hJJ=B2q2Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRPpJQB_mfphQCFngYs2umUDjoVs-pDk0L1R0XzmqSmNw@mail.gmail.com>

I am a member of Mensa.  There are no IQ-based tiers of membership within
Mensa.  Either you tested high enough to get in (at some point, that you
have sufficient evidence of) or you didn't.

Higher IQ criteria are left to those smaller societies.

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 2:46 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Anton Sherwood wrote:
> "Are there tiers of membership?"
>
> My understanding is that Mensa members can take further tests to confirm
> having a higher IQ than what is required to simply get in the door. And so
> some join and associate with these "higher ranks of the intellect."
> Mensans, like transhumanists and cryonicists, like forming all sorts of
> groups under a common banner.
>
> There are also other organizations with similar aims and structure along
> the lines of Mensa. But some of them are vastly more exclusive/difficult to
> join because the membership IQ requirements are far more demanding. The
> Prometheus Society has an entry test which generally only 1 in 30,000
> people will pass. By comparison, 1 in 50 people can pass the Mensa entry
> test. And so Mensa has over 100,000 members globally, while The Prometheus
> Society has only around 100...
>
> I'm waiting for someone to create an even more demanding organization,
> which only about 1 in a billion people will qualify to join! They will only
> have around half a dozen members at any time, and the name will be, "The We
> Are So Much Smarter Than Everyone Else Society!" Lol They will crash the
> events of other high IQ groups, and mock them for being such intellectual
> dullards...
>
> John  ;  )
>
> On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 8:37 AM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> On 2020-11-19 11:04, John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote:
>> > I have been tested by Mensa and I was a little below
>> > what they require for a basic membership.
>>
>> Are there tiers of membership?
>>
>> --
>> *\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201120/4dd1e7a9/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 20 16:11:25 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 10:11:25 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Eventbrite/Zoom addiction!
In-Reply-To: <007e01d6bf42$93313270$b9939750$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAGSKFy2P8YKiwM9jTu2BjOnJU4Cg-3N+iTt3bC=tLx-O+pzEbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaB+i4mjSzJr8EBCoiKier_N2VpZKw+Ca_uvKwqzLbJcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy1BtsiyTjuVAZ7uwMRdJBZg0oALFe++czQ-arGBza1ysw@mail.gmail.com>
 <007e01d6bf42$93313270$b9939750$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbmzXFQx8TF4A8Nb+gG=-3tG61mMdDvCv8-+3hQ550f_Q@mail.gmail.com>

I had to learn how to buy used cars and it saved me bunches.  Never bought
a new one and would advise anyone not to.  Share your tricks, Spike?   bill
w

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 7:41 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *John Grigg via extropy-chat
> *?*
>
>
>
> >?I assume a life coach is a generalist, not a specialist like people who
> give advice on jobs or investments or buying a car.  bill w
>
>
>
> >?I would say life coaching is actually a good example of a profession
> being enhanced by technology. It did exist before video calls and social
> media, but due to these innovations, life coaches can now connect with
> clients from around the world, and have an easier time growing their
> careers and making a living?.John
>
>
>
>
>
> We already do this in Boy Scouts.  We have a network of parent volunteers
> who counsel the guys and talk about whatever they want to learn, never one
> on one, but anything including stuff outside of scouting, such as time
> management, buying a car (my specialty) college advice, that kinda thing.
> Scouts are a joy to work with: they are already motivated.  It is easy to
> motivate those who take the initiative, come to the adult, ask questions
> and listen to your answers.  I can help save them from plenty of goofball
> mistakes, one of the most serious ones being to choose the wrong first car.
>
>
>
> Regarding college choices, oh this is a tricky time for students.  Our
> world is in a rapid transition time, but it isn?t entirely clear where we
> are transitioning to.
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201120/2d1ea5e2/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 20 17:43:08 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 01:43:08 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Eventbrite/Zoom addiction!
In-Reply-To: <007e01d6bf42$93313270$b9939750$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAGSKFy2P8YKiwM9jTu2BjOnJU4Cg-3N+iTt3bC=tLx-O+pzEbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaB+i4mjSzJr8EBCoiKier_N2VpZKw+Ca_uvKwqzLbJcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy1BtsiyTjuVAZ7uwMRdJBZg0oALFe++czQ-arGBza1ysw@mail.gmail.com>
 <007e01d6bf42$93313270$b9939750$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3BC0jmri9fHt4ryzd9RPC6hY5YnRT7Sy9j7DJ8nm+aYg@mail.gmail.com>

Spike wrote:

"We already do this in Boy Scouts.  We have a network of parent volunteers
who counsel the guys and talk about whatever they want to learn, never one
on one, but anything including stuff outside of scouting, such as time
management, buying a car (my specialty) college advice, that kinda thing.
Scouts are a joy to work with: they are already motivated.  It is easy to
motivate those who take the initiative, come to the adult, ask questions
and listen to your answers.  I can help save them from plenty of goofball
mistakes, one of the most serious ones being to choose the wrong first car."



I was a scout, and that sounds along the lines of being a merit badge
counselor. But actually different, because you talk to them as a group
about whatever they want to learn about. I had a scoutmaster in Alaska who
was not motivated to really help us, though an affable guy, and we mainly
just played basketball. But after I aged out, he was replaced by a former
Air Force fighter pilot/commercial airline pilot who owned a small plane
large enough to take the entire troop anywhere he wanted! Oh, did I envy
those guys! Lol


My best friend during my teen years, bought a $500 used car where the floor
boards had huge gaping holes in them! But other than that, the vehicle ran
like a Swiss clock. Our first weekend running around, it starts to rain,
and I am screaming for him to slow down so we don't get hammered by water
splashing through the floor boards! Lol Later on, the application of duct
tape and polyethylene sheets fixed our dilemma.


"Regarding college choices, oh this is a tricky time for students.  Our
world is in a rapid transition time, but it isn?t entirely clear where we
are transitioning to."


I keep hearing people saying to not bother with college unless you want to
become a specific type of professional, but such advice doesn't sit well
with me. I would say go, but do your best to not go into debt, or at least
keep it well under control. And I think joining the military to get the
G.I. Bill is a good thing for those who want to serve their country. And of
course the major a person chooses, will hugely determine the value of their
degree. But not everyone is cut out to get a stem degree.


The Mormon Church has what they call the Pathways Program which allows
people, including non-members, to attend online college for very little
money. The curriculum comes from Brigham Young University-Idaho. I think
this is one of the coolest things the church has ever done, and an amazing
achievement. You are charged based on where you live. In the U.S. a person
pays only nine thousand dollars for a bachelor's degree, while in the
Philippines, it is only around two thousand dollars for the same thing!
The number of majors is limited, but they recently started offering IT
degrees. I am now feeling tempted to go back to school and finish up.


And of course a trade such as being a plumber or electrician can be very
profitable. And in fact, they get paid for learning, rather than be charged
for it, as with college! Lol I have a buddy who knew himself, skipped
college, and got a welding certification. After a few years doing factory
work welding, he joined the pipefitter's union and graduated from an
apprenticeship. The guy now makes solid money, owns a beautiful home,
drives a nice truck and has no student debts. Ironically, his various
girlfriends over the years have had liberal arts college degrees, lots of
debt, and don't own their own homes or drive nice cars.He is so far a
confirmed bachelor.

I had a young friend who got a stem "fusion" degree from ASU. It was
something brand new at the time. The curriculum developers there like to be
creative and different, so they basically combined an electrical
engineering degree with a computer science degree. It was essentially half
of each, so that the graduate had one foot in the world of engineering, and
another foot in the world of comp sci. Well, when he graduated, the poor
guy found that employers were not thrilled with his degree, because they
wanted both his feet clearly planted in one or the other of the two
subjects he studied! Lol Eventually he did okay, but he went through a long
frustrating period of rejection.

On the other hand, while perusing Eventbrite, I came upon a panel where
they discussed how certain high tech employers are very concerned that the
young stem grads they hire will not know enough about the triad of quantum
physics, electrical engineering and computer science, as it relates to the
development of quantum computers. Yes, this is a tricky time for even the
best and brightest!

John

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 9:41 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *John Grigg via extropy-chat
> *?*
>
>
>
> >?I assume a life coach is a generalist, not a specialist like people who
> give advice on jobs or investments or buying a car.  bill w
>
>
>
> >?I would say life coaching is actually a good example of a profession
> being enhanced by technology. It did exist before video calls and social
> media, but due to these innovations, life coaches can now connect with
> clients from around the world, and have an easier time growing their
> careers and making a living?.John
>
>
>
>
>
> We already do this in Boy Scouts.  We have a network of parent volunteers
> who counsel the guys and talk about whatever they want to learn, never one
> on one, but anything including stuff outside of scouting, such as time
> management, buying a car (my specialty) college advice, that kinda thing.
> Scouts are a joy to work with: they are already motivated.  It is easy to
> motivate those who take the initiative, come to the adult, ask questions
> and listen to your answers.  I can help save them from plenty of goofball
> mistakes, one of the most serious ones being to choose the wrong first car.
>
>
>
> Regarding college choices, oh this is a tricky time for students.  Our
> world is in a rapid transition time, but it isn?t entirely clear where we
> are transitioning to.
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201121/b1221bcf/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 20 18:00:22 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 12:00:22 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Eventbrite/Zoom addiction!
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy3BC0jmri9fHt4ryzd9RPC6hY5YnRT7Sy9j7DJ8nm+aYg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy2P8YKiwM9jTu2BjOnJU4Cg-3N+iTt3bC=tLx-O+pzEbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaB+i4mjSzJr8EBCoiKier_N2VpZKw+Ca_uvKwqzLbJcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy1BtsiyTjuVAZ7uwMRdJBZg0oALFe++czQ-arGBza1ysw@mail.gmail.com>
 <007e01d6bf42$93313270$b9939750$@rainier66.com>
 <CAGSKFy3BC0jmri9fHt4ryzd9RPC6hY5YnRT7Sy9j7DJ8nm+aYg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbxRdMMWxZ-CJLC=xx5wyp1uxv_zeTafeWio+gt-_9yEg@mail.gmail.com>

The problem with not attending college:  you can be a plumber or whatever,
make good money, get married, have kids, go into debt and so on.  Those
courses in college you were interested in, well, you can go online and take
them free.  But will you?  I am guessing most will not.  They are just too
busy.  This is also how you will lose many of your friends - you will think
of them, but while you are changing the baby.  No time.

College is a time where you are given free time - and lots of it - to think
as well as study - to meet people (where are you going to meet people after
college if you have not acquired a mate?  It's a big problem).  You are
forced, required, to take some courses you might not like.  You will not be
doing that if you don't go to college.  And like most required courses
before college, you really needed them though you didn't know it at the
time (like those guys who were trying to apply circle math to right
triangles in my previous post).  You will encounter tons of stuff people
who don't go to college will never hear of.  Maybe most of that is wasted
on you, but you might find some hobbies, some genre of literature, that you
wouldn't have otherwise.  And so on.  Yes, the debt is a big problem.

But the people who dropped out of college to work, or get married and have
kids, rarely come back, though nearly all of them will say they want to.
(But when they do, they are among the best students because now they are
more mature and know the value of study and how to do it.)

I am still a big advocate of college, with all its defects and cost.  Some
will go through it and not change a bit.  Like the cliche' - you get out of
it what you put into it.
bill w

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 11:45 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> Spike wrote:
>
> "We already do this in Boy Scouts.  We have a network of parent volunteers
> who counsel the guys and talk about whatever they want to learn, never one
> on one, but anything including stuff outside of scouting, such as time
> management, buying a car (my specialty) college advice, that kinda thing.
> Scouts are a joy to work with: they are already motivated.  It is easy to
> motivate those who take the initiative, come to the adult, ask questions
> and listen to your answers.  I can help save them from plenty of goofball
> mistakes, one of the most serious ones being to choose the wrong first car."
>
>
>
> I was a scout, and that sounds along the lines of being a merit badge
> counselor. But actually different, because you talk to them as a group
> about whatever they want to learn about. I had a scoutmaster in Alaska who
> was not motivated to really help us, though an affable guy, and we mainly
> just played basketball. But after I aged out, he was replaced by a former
> Air Force fighter pilot/commercial airline pilot who owned a small plane
> large enough to take the entire troop anywhere he wanted! Oh, did I envy
> those guys! Lol
>
>
> My best friend during my teen years, bought a $500 used car where the
> floor boards had huge gaping holes in them! But other than that, the
> vehicle ran like a Swiss clock. Our first weekend running around, it starts
> to rain, and I am screaming for him to slow down so we don't get hammered
> by water splashing through the floor boards! Lol Later on, the application
> of duct tape and polyethylene sheets fixed our dilemma.
>
>
> "Regarding college choices, oh this is a tricky time for students.  Our
> world is in a rapid transition time, but it isn?t entirely clear where we
> are transitioning to."
>
>
> I keep hearing people saying to not bother with college unless you want to
> become a specific type of professional, but such advice doesn't sit well
> with me. I would say go, but do your best to not go into debt, or at least
> keep it well under control. And I think joining the military to get the
> G.I. Bill is a good thing for those who want to serve their country. And of
> course the major a person chooses, will hugely determine the value of their
> degree. But not everyone is cut out to get a stem degree.
>
>
> The Mormon Church has what they call the Pathways Program which allows
> people, including non-members, to attend online college for very little
> money. The curriculum comes from Brigham Young University-Idaho. I think
> this is one of the coolest things the church has ever done, and an amazing
> achievement. You are charged based on where you live. In the U.S. a person
> pays only nine thousand dollars for a bachelor's degree, while in the
> Philippines, it is only around two thousand dollars for the same thing!
> The number of majors is limited, but they recently started offering IT
> degrees. I am now feeling tempted to go back to school and finish up.
>
>
> And of course a trade such as being a plumber or electrician can be very
> profitable. And in fact, they get paid for learning, rather than be charged
> for it, as with college! Lol I have a buddy who knew himself, skipped
> college, and got a welding certification. After a few years doing factory
> work welding, he joined the pipefitter's union and graduated from an
> apprenticeship. The guy now makes solid money, owns a beautiful home,
> drives a nice truck and has no student debts. Ironically, his various
> girlfriends over the years have had liberal arts college degrees, lots of
> debt, and don't own their own homes or drive nice cars.He is so far a
> confirmed bachelor.
>
> I had a young friend who got a stem "fusion" degree from ASU. It was
> something brand new at the time. The curriculum developers there like to be
> creative and different, so they basically combined an electrical
> engineering degree with a computer science degree. It was essentially half
> of each, so that the graduate had one foot in the world of engineering, and
> another foot in the world of comp sci. Well, when he graduated, the poor
> guy found that employers were not thrilled with his degree, because they
> wanted both his feet clearly planted in one or the other of the two
> subjects he studied! Lol Eventually he did okay, but he went through a long
> frustrating period of rejection.
>
> On the other hand, while perusing Eventbrite, I came upon a panel where
> they discussed how certain high tech employers are very concerned that the
> young stem grads they hire will not know enough about the triad of quantum
> physics, electrical engineering and computer science, as it relates to the
> development of quantum computers. Yes, this is a tricky time for even the
> best and brightest!
>
> John
>
> On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 9:41 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
>> Of *John Grigg via extropy-chat
>> *?*
>>
>>
>>
>> >?I assume a life coach is a generalist, not a specialist like people
>> who give advice on jobs or investments or buying a car.  bill w
>>
>>
>>
>> >?I would say life coaching is actually a good example of a profession
>> being enhanced by technology. It did exist before video calls and social
>> media, but due to these innovations, life coaches can now connect with
>> clients from around the world, and have an easier time growing their
>> careers and making a living?.John
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> We already do this in Boy Scouts.  We have a network of parent volunteers
>> who counsel the guys and talk about whatever they want to learn, never one
>> on one, but anything including stuff outside of scouting, such as time
>> management, buying a car (my specialty) college advice, that kinda thing.
>> Scouts are a joy to work with: they are already motivated.  It is easy to
>> motivate those who take the initiative, come to the adult, ask questions
>> and listen to your answers.  I can help save them from plenty of goofball
>> mistakes, one of the most serious ones being to choose the wrong first car.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regarding college choices, oh this is a tricky time for students.  Our
>> world is in a rapid transition time, but it isn?t entirely clear where we
>> are transitioning to.
>>
>>
>>
>> spike
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201120/248b45d6/attachment-0001.htm>

From sparge at gmail.com  Fri Nov 20 18:35:12 2020
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 13:35:12 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Eventbrite/Zoom addiction!
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy3BC0jmri9fHt4ryzd9RPC6hY5YnRT7Sy9j7DJ8nm+aYg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy2P8YKiwM9jTu2BjOnJU4Cg-3N+iTt3bC=tLx-O+pzEbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaB+i4mjSzJr8EBCoiKier_N2VpZKw+Ca_uvKwqzLbJcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy1BtsiyTjuVAZ7uwMRdJBZg0oALFe++czQ-arGBza1ysw@mail.gmail.com>
 <007e01d6bf42$93313270$b9939750$@rainier66.com>
 <CAGSKFy3BC0jmri9fHt4ryzd9RPC6hY5YnRT7Sy9j7DJ8nm+aYg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2duS_zCOaOrErmXN9aYmb1e4KeZB6D_aS4iRo+mn90RGQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 12:45 PM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> I keep hearing people saying to not bother with college unless you want to
> become a specific type of professional, but such advice doesn't sit well
> with me. I would say go, but do your best to not go into debt, or at least
> keep it well under control.
>

I'm in the "college isn't the best option for everyone" camp. It's
mandatory for some professions but a waste of time and money for others.


> And I think joining the military to get the G.I. Bill is a good thing for
> those who want to serve their country.
>

It's more like "serve their government" than "serve their country", IMO.
We've got 500 military installations around the globe and we're almost
always at war somewhere. These wars don't serve the country, they serve the
military/industrial/government complex. But sure, risk your life in some
hellhole that is not a threat to the US in exchange for an education.

On the other hand, while perusing Eventbrite, I came upon a panel where
> they discussed how certain high tech employers are very concerned that the
> young stem grads they hire will not know enough about the triad of quantum
> physics, electrical engineering and computer science, as it relates to the
> development of quantum computers. Yes, this is a tricky time for even the
> best and brightest!
>

There's little demand for people trained in quantum computing today because
the field is just ready yet. There's apparently one graduate level quantum
computing degree program.

-Dave
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201120/ff7a9f60/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 20 19:36:33 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 13:36:33 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Eventbrite/Zoom addiction!
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2duS_zCOaOrErmXN9aYmb1e4KeZB6D_aS4iRo+mn90RGQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy2P8YKiwM9jTu2BjOnJU4Cg-3N+iTt3bC=tLx-O+pzEbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaB+i4mjSzJr8EBCoiKier_N2VpZKw+Ca_uvKwqzLbJcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy1BtsiyTjuVAZ7uwMRdJBZg0oALFe++czQ-arGBza1ysw@mail.gmail.com>
 <007e01d6bf42$93313270$b9939750$@rainier66.com>
 <CAGSKFy3BC0jmri9fHt4ryzd9RPC6hY5YnRT7Sy9j7DJ8nm+aYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2duS_zCOaOrErmXN9aYmb1e4KeZB6D_aS4iRo+mn90RGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaraftHo0MbEP=DTXiLhnxKaXn8zfEoaCw69jY1ovRJFA@mail.gmail.com>

I'm in the "college isn't the best option for everyone" camp. It's
mandatory for some professions but a waste of time and money for others.
Dave

Well Dave, this is a straw man argument.  Nobody is saying 'everyone'.  I'd
limit college to those with IQs and other talents
above average as well as the interest.  I had a black guy supporting two
families with two jobs and taking a full load.  Now that's motivation.
Those below 105 IQ or so, depending, should have dropped out of college
prep before their senior year.  For most of those getting  a college degree
is just not practical - a two year college program might fit them - at most.

College is mostly for thinkers, not doers (excluding many of the tech
people who are both).  Who goes to college should depend on a very thorough
analysis of the person done by competent junior and high school counselors
(and there are not nearly enough of those).  High school seniors are not
mature and still need some guidance.  For many, college is a party place
where you can figure out who you are and what you want.  And it should be
FREE!

bill w

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 12:37 PM Dave Sill via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 12:45 PM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> I keep hearing people saying to not bother with college unless you want
>> to become a specific type of professional, but such advice doesn't sit well
>> with me. I would say go, but do your best to not go into debt, or at least
>> keep it well under control.
>>
>
> I'm in the "college isn't the best option for everyone" camp. It's
> mandatory for some professions but a waste of time and money for others.
>
>
>> And I think joining the military to get the G.I. Bill is a good thing for
>> those who want to serve their country.
>>
>
> It's more like "serve their government" than "serve their country", IMO.
> We've got 500 military installations around the globe and we're almost
> always at war somewhere. These wars don't serve the country, they serve the
> military/industrial/government complex. But sure, risk your life in some
> hellhole that is not a threat to the US in exchange for an education.
>
> On the other hand, while perusing Eventbrite, I came upon a panel where
>> they discussed how certain high tech employers are very concerned that the
>> young stem grads they hire will not know enough about the triad of quantum
>> physics, electrical engineering and computer science, as it relates to the
>> development of quantum computers. Yes, this is a tricky time for even the
>> best and brightest!
>>
>
> There's little demand for people trained in quantum computing today
> because the field is just ready yet. There's apparently one graduate level
> quantum computing degree program.
>
> -Dave
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201120/95acb9d5/attachment.htm>

From ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com  Fri Nov 20 21:45:40 2020
From: ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com (ilsa)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 13:45:40 -0800
Subject: [ExI] plastic turkeys
In-Reply-To: <a318c15c-a3d8-6247-77ba-91b3f2e43b70@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.132.1605821831.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <a318c15c-a3d8-6247-77ba-91b3f2e43b70@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAN3PQpG24Ng57B8ycV5NEP--sTuoAsK18_qSX6Kh3BcT7VNbtw@mail.gmail.com>

Have any of you purchased the plastic turkey for Thanksgiving? Where do I
get one can I order it online do you have a link?
Grin

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020, 5:52 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On 19/11/2020 21:37, John Grigg wrote:
> > I am actually frustrated with my mother because she attended Columbia
> > University, but did not find a father for me there, who would have
> > most likely provided quality genes for high intelligence. Instead she
> > found a "bad boy" who was tall, handsome and entertaining, a war vet,
> > but of very average intelligence, though street smart. And yet I did
> > not even inherit his movie star good looks, despite him being my sperm
> > donor, and the one who most likely constrained my intellectual
> > abilities. His brothers were all very bright, but not him. One of them
> > is even in the IBM Hall of Fame. But then I must remember that every
> > conception is a big roll of the genetic dice... I could have come out
> > very different, in either a good/superior or a sad/horrific way...
>
> John, the way I see it is that whoever that hypothetical different
> person would be, they wouldn't be you. That's my answer whenever I'm
> asked if I ever regret anything I've done in my life. If I had done
> things differently, I would have turned out different, and that
> different person wouldn't be who I am now.
>
> No regrets, either about what you did or how you came to be. Be thankful
> (to yourself) to have turned out as you.
>
> I'm not, of course, saying don't strive to better yourself (that would,
> on this list, be blasphemy :-D ), just don't have any bad feelings about
> things in the past.
>
> --
> Ben Zaiboc
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201120/aa275d95/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 20 21:50:35 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 15:50:35 -0600
Subject: [ExI] plastic turkeys
In-Reply-To: <CAN3PQpG24Ng57B8ycV5NEP--sTuoAsK18_qSX6Kh3BcT7VNbtw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.132.1605821831.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <a318c15c-a3d8-6247-77ba-91b3f2e43b70@zaiboc.net>
 <CAN3PQpG24Ng57B8ycV5NEP--sTuoAsK18_qSX6Kh3BcT7VNbtw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZu0FEn2A1YxBSxpxOkV56jG3+-tMiDho9KA0zCBtoHxQ@mail.gmail.com>

I believe there is a plastic turkey living in the White House.   bill w

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 3:48 PM ilsa via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Have any of you purchased the plastic turkey for Thanksgiving? Where do I
> get one can I order it online do you have a link?
> Grin
>
> On Fri, Nov 20, 2020, 5:52 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> On 19/11/2020 21:37, John Grigg wrote:
>> > I am actually frustrated with my mother because she attended Columbia
>> > University, but did not find a father for me there, who would have
>> > most likely provided quality genes for high intelligence. Instead she
>> > found a "bad boy" who was tall, handsome and entertaining, a war vet,
>> > but of very average intelligence, though street smart. And yet I did
>> > not even inherit his movie star good looks, despite him being my sperm
>> > donor, and the one who most likely constrained my intellectual
>> > abilities. His brothers were all very bright, but not him. One of them
>> > is even in the IBM Hall of Fame. But then I must remember that every
>> > conception is a big roll of the genetic dice... I could have come out
>> > very different, in either a good/superior or a sad/horrific way...
>>
>> John, the way I see it is that whoever that hypothetical different
>> person would be, they wouldn't be you. That's my answer whenever I'm
>> asked if I ever regret anything I've done in my life. If I had done
>> things differently, I would have turned out different, and that
>> different person wouldn't be who I am now.
>>
>> No regrets, either about what you did or how you came to be. Be thankful
>> (to yourself) to have turned out as you.
>>
>> I'm not, of course, saying don't strive to better yourself (that would,
>> on this list, be blasphemy :-D ), just don't have any bad feelings about
>> things in the past.
>>
>> --
>> Ben Zaiboc
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201120/18555bd1/attachment.htm>

From ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com  Fri Nov 20 21:55:39 2020
From: ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com (ilsa)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 13:55:39 -0800
Subject: [ExI] plastic turkeys
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZu0FEn2A1YxBSxpxOkV56jG3+-tMiDho9KA0zCBtoHxQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.132.1605821831.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <a318c15c-a3d8-6247-77ba-91b3f2e43b70@zaiboc.net>
 <CAN3PQpG24Ng57B8ycV5NEP--sTuoAsK18_qSX6Kh3BcT7VNbtw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZu0FEn2A1YxBSxpxOkV56jG3+-tMiDho9KA0zCBtoHxQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAN3PQpERP8ZSMzEzdmp6D8pWmshTVSug6+qJngKivywkT4hUfg@mail.gmail.com>

Yup, I laughed out loud!

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020, 1:52 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I believe there is a plastic turkey living in the White House.   bill w
>
> On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 3:48 PM ilsa via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Have any of you purchased the plastic turkey for Thanksgiving? Where do I
>> get one can I order it online do you have a link?
>> Grin
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 20, 2020, 5:52 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 19/11/2020 21:37, John Grigg wrote:
>>> > I am actually frustrated with my mother because she attended Columbia
>>> > University, but did not find a father for me there, who would have
>>> > most likely provided quality genes for high intelligence. Instead she
>>> > found a "bad boy" who was tall, handsome and entertaining, a war vet,
>>> > but of very average intelligence, though street smart. And yet I did
>>> > not even inherit his movie star good looks, despite him being my sperm
>>> > donor, and the one who most likely constrained my intellectual
>>> > abilities. His brothers were all very bright, but not him. One of them
>>> > is even in the IBM Hall of Fame. But then I must remember that every
>>> > conception is a big roll of the genetic dice... I could have come out
>>> > very different, in either a good/superior or a sad/horrific way...
>>>
>>> John, the way I see it is that whoever that hypothetical different
>>> person would be, they wouldn't be you. That's my answer whenever I'm
>>> asked if I ever regret anything I've done in my life. If I had done
>>> things differently, I would have turned out different, and that
>>> different person wouldn't be who I am now.
>>>
>>> No regrets, either about what you did or how you came to be. Be thankful
>>> (to yourself) to have turned out as you.
>>>
>>> I'm not, of course, saying don't strive to better yourself (that would,
>>> on this list, be blasphemy :-D ), just don't have any bad feelings about
>>> things in the past.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ben Zaiboc
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201120/fb3203ef/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Nov 21 03:46:59 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 19:46:59 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Eventbrite/Zoom addiction!
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbmzXFQx8TF4A8Nb+gG=-3tG61mMdDvCv8-+3hQ550f_Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy2P8YKiwM9jTu2BjOnJU4Cg-3N+iTt3bC=tLx-O+pzEbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaB+i4mjSzJr8EBCoiKier_N2VpZKw+Ca_uvKwqzLbJcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy1BtsiyTjuVAZ7uwMRdJBZg0oALFe++czQ-arGBza1ysw@mail.gmail.com>
 <007e01d6bf42$93313270$b9939750$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbmzXFQx8TF4A8Nb+gG=-3tG61mMdDvCv8-+3hQ550f_Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001d6bfb8$f869f6b0$e93de410$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] Eventbrite/Zoom addiction!

 

>?I had to learn how to buy used cars and it saved me bunches.  Never bought a new one and would advise anyone not to.  Share your tricks, Spike?   bill w

 

I have had both.  In general one does better with used cars.  For teenagers, I suggest recognizing this isn?t their dream machine: that can wait for later because they will have more money later.  Great deals can be had with a good solid big American rig such as the Lincoln Town Car, Crown Victoria and Mercury Grand Marquis.  Reason: for teenagers who live in the Bay Area, they don?t need to go far usually, so giving away some gas mileage for lowered maintenance cost is a good trade-off.  Then when they are ready to move up, they can get much of their money back out of it.

 

Disclaimer: I drive a Lincoln Towncar, before that a Grand Marquis, both well used when I bought them, neither car cost me much of anything in maintenance, and what few repairs there were I was able to do them myself.  My Towner is now 18 yrs old.  I bought it 5 yrs old and about 60k for a third of its sticker price, put 120k on it since then, never cost me much of anything.  Great car.  Still looks new.  

 

Teenagers can buy those rigs for about 5k.  Great deal.  Eh, so they are stodgy and square.  You look like your grandpa.  But the way I see it, that gives them incentive to work hard, save their money, wait till later to be hip.

 

spike

 

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201120/e21fce4d/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 21 04:11:09 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 12:11:09 +0800
Subject: [ExI] plastic turkeys
In-Reply-To: <CAN3PQpERP8ZSMzEzdmp6D8pWmshTVSug6+qJngKivywkT4hUfg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.132.1605821831.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <a318c15c-a3d8-6247-77ba-91b3f2e43b70@zaiboc.net>
 <CAN3PQpG24Ng57B8ycV5NEP--sTuoAsK18_qSX6Kh3BcT7VNbtw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZu0FEn2A1YxBSxpxOkV56jG3+-tMiDho9KA0zCBtoHxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAN3PQpERP8ZSMzEzdmp6D8pWmshTVSug6+qJngKivywkT4hUfg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3FVTo469c6knWVRPO=2DL-b3MfSwYd5y96syehohENpw@mail.gmail.com>

bill w wrote:
"I believe there is a plastic turkey living in the White House."

A plastic turkey in the White House? No, l would say a jive turkey!!!  ;
)

>From Google:
"Why is jive turkey offensive?

*Jive Turkey* was a derogatory slang word in African American Vernacular
English (Ebonics), used to refer to someone who was unreliable, made empty
promises, or who was full of bluster."

Yep!

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020, 4:59 PM ilsa via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Yup, I laughed out loud!
>
> On Fri, Nov 20, 2020, 1:52 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> I believe there is a plastic turkey living in the White House.   bill w
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 3:48 PM ilsa via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Have any of you purchased the plastic turkey for Thanksgiving? Where do
>>> I get one can I order it online do you have a link?
>>> Grin
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 20, 2020, 5:52 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 19/11/2020 21:37, John Grigg wrote:
>>>> > I am actually frustrated with my mother because she attended Columbia
>>>> > University, but did not find a father for me there, who would have
>>>> > most likely provided quality genes for high intelligence. Instead she
>>>> > found a "bad boy" who was tall, handsome and entertaining, a war vet,
>>>> > but of very average intelligence, though street smart. And yet I did
>>>> > not even inherit his movie star good looks, despite him being my
>>>> sperm
>>>> > donor, and the one who most likely constrained my intellectual
>>>> > abilities. His brothers were all very bright, but not him. One of
>>>> them
>>>> > is even in the IBM Hall of Fame. But then I must remember that every
>>>> > conception is a big roll of the genetic dice... I could have come out
>>>> > very different, in either a good/superior or a sad/horrific way...
>>>>
>>>> John, the way I see it is that whoever that hypothetical different
>>>> person would be, they wouldn't be you. That's my answer whenever I'm
>>>> asked if I ever regret anything I've done in my life. If I had done
>>>> things differently, I would have turned out different, and that
>>>> different person wouldn't be who I am now.
>>>>
>>>> No regrets, either about what you did or how you came to be. Be
>>>> thankful
>>>> (to yourself) to have turned out as you.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not, of course, saying don't strive to better yourself (that would,
>>>> on this list, be blasphemy :-D ), just don't have any bad feelings
>>>> about
>>>> things in the past.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Ben Zaiboc
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201121/cba84709/attachment.htm>

From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Sat Nov 21 07:17:51 2020
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 02:17:51 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Eventbrite/Zoom addiction!
In-Reply-To: <000001d6bfb8$f869f6b0$e93de410$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAGSKFy2P8YKiwM9jTu2BjOnJU4Cg-3N+iTt3bC=tLx-O+pzEbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaB+i4mjSzJr8EBCoiKier_N2VpZKw+Ca_uvKwqzLbJcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy1BtsiyTjuVAZ7uwMRdJBZg0oALFe++czQ-arGBza1ysw@mail.gmail.com>
 <007e01d6bf42$93313270$b9939750$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbmzXFQx8TF4A8Nb+gG=-3tG61mMdDvCv8-+3hQ550f_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <000001d6bfb8$f869f6b0$e93de410$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyEv-34yJ=5FWZ+bnSOUuc=rEjChV2E-eVi4Gwet_vE-mg@mail.gmail.com>

@William FW:

Royalty has had life coaches since the beginning of history in the form of
advisors.  But now it's something the hoi polloi have access to.  I think a
lot of things formerly inaccessible to the common man have followed similar
trajectories.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201121/803438df/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 21 08:27:01 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 16:27:01 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Eventbrite/Zoom addiction!
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyEv-34yJ=5FWZ+bnSOUuc=rEjChV2E-eVi4Gwet_vE-mg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy2P8YKiwM9jTu2BjOnJU4Cg-3N+iTt3bC=tLx-O+pzEbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaB+i4mjSzJr8EBCoiKier_N2VpZKw+Ca_uvKwqzLbJcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy1BtsiyTjuVAZ7uwMRdJBZg0oALFe++czQ-arGBza1ysw@mail.gmail.com>
 <007e01d6bf42$93313270$b9939750$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbmzXFQx8TF4A8Nb+gG=-3tG61mMdDvCv8-+3hQ550f_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <000001d6bfb8$f869f6b0$e93de410$@rainier66.com>
 <CAKrqSyEv-34yJ=5FWZ+bnSOUuc=rEjChV2E-eVi4Gwet_vE-mg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3q4kNWWYxXFZsg=Mumc_kufGV401EPtczLNyjWch-KYg@mail.gmail.com>

Will Steinberg wrote:
"Royalty has had life coaches since the beginning of history in the form of
advisors.  But now it's something the hoi polloi have access to.  I think a
lot of things formerly inaccessible to the common man have followed similar
trajectories."

A good point... And now I am enviously thinking that I want a Roman
Catholic cardinal and a seven foot tall Chinese eunuch as my life coaches!
;  )

John

On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 3:20 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> @William FW:
>
> Royalty has had life coaches since the beginning of history in the form of
> advisors.  But now it's something the hoi polloi have access to.  I think a
> lot of things formerly inaccessible to the common man have followed similar
> trajectories.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201121/1bf103c2/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 21 09:10:31 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 17:10:31 +0800
Subject: [ExI] China's new wildlife law doesn't go far enough to stop
 another pandemic
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy2vweGrGu_gptZYpVHrW6QmOpTUE=qr2HpMWWVFeWJ5Dg@mail.gmail.com>

When will China and everyone else learn, despite everything that has
already happened?

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/17/opinions/china-wildlife-law-coronavirus-intl-hnk/index.html
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201121/49f90929/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 21 09:17:40 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 17:17:40 +0800
Subject: [ExI] 'The war on drugs failed': California lawmaker will push to
 decriminalize psychedelics
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy0udEYLqb=KYOegg2Zusanzg8c64yFTnkaxn4NY-SsK0Q@mail.gmail.com>

"Wiener said he would love to eventually introduce a bill similar to
Measure 110 in Oregon ? one that decriminalizes the use and possession of
small amounts of all drugs.

And for that, Johnson knows all eyes will be on Oregon for the next few
years. He says he?s excited that people are already turning to his state as
an example.

?When you pass a measure like this and then it just immediately builds
progress, whether it?s a legislator in California speaking up or a measure
in Washington taking shape, it?s a relief to see science beginning to win
the day.?
Down the road we can have another Extropian conference, and legally expand
our minds with lds! Lol  ;  )

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/nov/20/california-lawmaker-decriminalize-psychedelics

John (the dyslexic Mormon)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201121/baa17c90/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 21 10:09:57 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 18:09:57 +0800
Subject: [ExI] The Genius Neuroscientist Who Might Hold the Key to True AI
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy26g23pzYaMtvcN=YOaXgZZ5H0fiMLH7PqHLgYJCZxKfQ@mail.gmail.com>

"For the past decade or so, Friston has devoted much of his time and effort
to developing an idea he calls the free energy principle. (Friston refers
to his neuroimaging research as a day job, the way a jazz musician might
refer to his shift at the local public library.) With this idea, Friston
believes he has identified nothing less than the organizing principle of
all life, and all intelligence as well. ?If you are alive,? he sets out to
answer, ?what sorts of behaviors *must* you show??

First the bad news: The free energy principle is maddeningly difficult to
understand. So difficult, in fact, that entire rooms of very, very smart
people have tried and failed to grasp it. A Twitter account
<https://twitter.com/farlkriston>2 with 3,000 followers exists simply to
mock its opacity, and nearly every person I spoke with about it, including
researchers whose work depends on it, told me they didn?t fully comprehend
it.

But often those same people hastened to add that the free energy principle,
at its heart, tells a simple story and solves a basic puzzle. The second
law of thermodynamics tells us that the universe tends toward entropy,
toward dissolution; but living things fiercely resist it. We wake up every
morning nearly the same person we were the day before, with clear
separations between our cells and organs, and between us and the world
without. How? Friston?s free energy principle says that all life, at every
scale of organization?from single cells to the human brain, with its
billions of neurons?is driven by the same universal imperative, which can
be reduced to a mathematical function. To be alive, he says, is to act in
ways that reduce the gulf between your expectations and your sensory
inputs. Or, in Fristonian terms, it is to *minimize free energy*.

To get a sense of the potential implications of this theory, all you have
to do is look at the array of people who darken the FIL?s doorstep on
Monday mornings. Some are here because they want to use the free energy
principle to unify theories of the mind, provide a new foundation for
biology, and explain life as we know it. Others hope the free energy
principle will finally ground psychiatry in a functional understanding of
the brain. And still others come because they want to use Friston?s ideas
to break through the roadblocks in artificial intelligence
<https://www.wired.com/tag/artificial-intelligence/> research. But they all
have one reason in common for being here, which is that the only person who
truly understands Karl Friston?s free energy principle may be Karl Friston
himself."
What do you think?

https://www.wired.com/story/karl-friston-free-energy-principle-artificial-intelligence/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201121/7b28bd2c/attachment-0001.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 21 11:21:18 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 19:21:18 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Europe is coming for Big Tech. Biden's victory won't change
 that
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy0W4L6xkuhGNHCAYovY87dNhN2Og5TX1iE22xEOk6y+Wg@mail.gmail.com>

 "Europe has turned itself into the cop on the Big Tech beat, repeatedly
enforcing its rules and hitting the industry's top
American companies with huge fines. That's not going to change when Joe
Biden is sworn in as US president.

Because Europe doesn't have tech companies that can compete with Silicon
Valley's big names or China's tech champions,
the region's response is to try to exert influence through regulation,
Eurasia Group's Peker said.The thinking: Europe is a
huge consumer market, so it should have a hand in setting online norms.
"Europe sees an opening," Peker said. In his view,
a change in administration in the United States won't alter the calculus.
On issues like antitrust, there's a consensus in Europe
and the United States that more should be done to rein in Big Tech.

Both Republicans and Democrats in the United States are more comfortable
with the possibility of curbing Silicon Valley's power
than they were just a few years ago. House Democrats recently published
<https://edition.cnn.com/2020/10/06/tech/congress-big-tech-antitrust-report/index.html>
a congressional investigation that found Amazon, Apple
(AAPL
<https://money.cnn.com/quote/quote.html?symb=AAPL&source=story_quote_link>),
Google and Facebook hold "monopoly power" in key business segments, while
the Department of Justice last month
accused Google
<https://edition.cnn.com/2020/10/20/tech/doj-google-antitrust-case/index.html>
of stifling competition to maintain its powerful position in the
marketplace for online search."

And why didn't Europe develop powerful tech companies like America and
China Did? Are they only talented bureaucrats at this point?

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/12/tech/europe-tech-biden/index.html
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201121/7b7ee77c/attachment.htm>

From sparge at gmail.com  Sat Nov 21 13:00:17 2020
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 08:00:17 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Eventbrite/Zoom addiction!
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaraftHo0MbEP=DTXiLhnxKaXn8zfEoaCw69jY1ovRJFA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy2P8YKiwM9jTu2BjOnJU4Cg-3N+iTt3bC=tLx-O+pzEbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaB+i4mjSzJr8EBCoiKier_N2VpZKw+Ca_uvKwqzLbJcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy1BtsiyTjuVAZ7uwMRdJBZg0oALFe++czQ-arGBza1ysw@mail.gmail.com>
 <007e01d6bf42$93313270$b9939750$@rainier66.com>
 <CAGSKFy3BC0jmri9fHt4ryzd9RPC6hY5YnRT7Sy9j7DJ8nm+aYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2duS_zCOaOrErmXN9aYmb1e4KeZB6D_aS4iRo+mn90RGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaraftHo0MbEP=DTXiLhnxKaXn8zfEoaCw69jY1ovRJFA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2dM4p-1BCcEiiAPQoqpWEFm_V7PDdJRwhUunKQAc6SAjw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 2:39 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Dave wrote:
>
> >I'm in the "college isn't the best option for everyone" camp. It's
mandatory for some professions but a waste of time and money for others.
>
> Well Dave, this is a straw man argument.  Nobody is saying 'everyone'.
I'd limit college to those with IQs and other talents
> above average as well as the interest.

Well, I wasn't arguing, I was stating my opinion. And I wasn't assuming
that "everyone" was literal. I think college is a bad choice for a lot of
people who have the qualifications, means, and even interest. I'm also not
saying that nobody should go to college. It *can* be a great experience and
we do need academics. But most people would probably be better served by
targeted occupational training that would better prepare them for their
career in less time and at much lower cost.

College is better suited to providing a classical education in composition,
literature, history, math, arts, etc., than in job skills. I have a BS in
Computer Science, and I learned a lot in college, but I didn't really learn
how to be a programmer or system administrator--the jobs I've held since
graduating. With a year of programming training I'd have been
better-prepared, would have saved a lot of debt that took years to pay
back, and would have had four more years of earning.

-Dave
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201121/febdbe0e/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Nov 21 13:34:25 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 05:34:25 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Eventbrite/Zoom addiction!
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyEv-34yJ=5FWZ+bnSOUuc=rEjChV2E-eVi4Gwet_vE-mg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy2P8YKiwM9jTu2BjOnJU4Cg-3N+iTt3bC=tLx-O+pzEbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaB+i4mjSzJr8EBCoiKier_N2VpZKw+Ca_uvKwqzLbJcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy1BtsiyTjuVAZ7uwMRdJBZg0oALFe++czQ-arGBza1ysw@mail.gmail.com>
 <007e01d6bf42$93313270$b9939750$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbmzXFQx8TF4A8Nb+gG=-3tG61mMdDvCv8-+3hQ550f_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <000001d6bfb8$f869f6b0$e93de410$@rainier66.com>
 <CAKrqSyEv-34yJ=5FWZ+bnSOUuc=rEjChV2E-eVi4Gwet_vE-mg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006e01d6c00b$07a70d50$16f527f0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] Eventbrite/Zoom addiction!

 

@William FW: 

 

>?Royalty has had life coaches since the beginning of history in the form of advisors.  But now it's something the hoi polloi have access to.  I think a lot of things formerly inaccessible to the common man have followed similar trajectories?

 

 

Hi will, is it cool or what?  In our scout troop we have two counselors who lived under communism, socialism and now a form of capitalism.  They teach a class in Citizenship in the World, from a position of strength: they know.  They lived it in Ukraine, they lived it in Sweden.  They chose to raise their son in America.

 

Regarding Ukraine: we were at a birthday party with their friends, nearly all Ukrainian expatriates, speaking in Ukrainian.  They drew me into one of their discussions and switched to heavily accented English.  They were telling of their experiences during the fall of communism in 1989, oh mercy.  The scouts get to learn of that perspective on life.  I notice there are plenty of parents sitting in on those classes (I did.)

 

In our fortunate times, we are all royalty.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201121/444c79e0/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 21 14:54:08 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 08:54:08 -0600
Subject: [ExI] The Genius Neuroscientist Who Might Hold the Key to True
 AI
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy26g23pzYaMtvcN=YOaXgZZ5H0fiMLH7PqHLgYJCZxKfQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy26g23pzYaMtvcN=YOaXgZZ5H0fiMLH7PqHLgYJCZxKfQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEa=72FcLJRbpKyHGjqs-iZhYWKH7+=GC7JobBLRv2OFZg@mail.gmail.com>

I tend to dismiss ideas that a big room full of highly intelligent people
cannot make sense of.  And then I remember reading that at one time there
were only ten people in the world who could understand Einstein (which
theory I cannot remember).   bill w

On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 4:12 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> "For the past decade or so, Friston has devoted much of his time and
> effort to developing an idea he calls the free energy principle. (Friston
> refers to his neuroimaging research as a day job, the way a jazz musician
> might refer to his shift at the local public library.) With this idea,
> Friston believes he has identified nothing less than the organizing
> principle of all life, and all intelligence as well. ?If you are alive,? he
> sets out to answer, ?what sorts of behaviors *must* you show??
>
> First the bad news: The free energy principle is maddeningly difficult to
> understand. So difficult, in fact, that entire rooms of very, very smart
> people have tried and failed to grasp it. A Twitter account
> <https://twitter.com/farlkriston>2 with 3,000 followers exists simply to
> mock its opacity, and nearly every person I spoke with about it, including
> researchers whose work depends on it, told me they didn?t fully comprehend
> it.
>
> But often those same people hastened to add that the free energy
> principle, at its heart, tells a simple story and solves a basic puzzle.
> The second law of thermodynamics tells us that the universe tends toward
> entropy, toward dissolution; but living things fiercely resist it. We wake
> up every morning nearly the same person we were the day before, with clear
> separations between our cells and organs, and between us and the world
> without. How? Friston?s free energy principle says that all life, at every
> scale of organization?from single cells to the human brain, with its
> billions of neurons?is driven by the same universal imperative, which can
> be reduced to a mathematical function. To be alive, he says, is to act in
> ways that reduce the gulf between your expectations and your sensory
> inputs. Or, in Fristonian terms, it is to *minimize free energy*.
>
> To get a sense of the potential implications of this theory, all you have
> to do is look at the array of people who darken the FIL?s doorstep on
> Monday mornings. Some are here because they want to use the free energy
> principle to unify theories of the mind, provide a new foundation for
> biology, and explain life as we know it. Others hope the free energy
> principle will finally ground psychiatry in a functional understanding of
> the brain. And still others come because they want to use Friston?s ideas
> to break through the roadblocks in artificial intelligence
> <https://www.wired.com/tag/artificial-intelligence/> research. But they
> all have one reason in common for being here, which is that the only person
> who truly understands Karl Friston?s free energy principle may be Karl
> Friston himself."
> What do you think?
>
>
> https://www.wired.com/story/karl-friston-free-energy-principle-artificial-intelligence/
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201121/a2f6d086/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 21 15:26:44 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 09:26:44 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Eventbrite/Zoom addiction!
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2dM4p-1BCcEiiAPQoqpWEFm_V7PDdJRwhUunKQAc6SAjw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy2P8YKiwM9jTu2BjOnJU4Cg-3N+iTt3bC=tLx-O+pzEbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaB+i4mjSzJr8EBCoiKier_N2VpZKw+Ca_uvKwqzLbJcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy1BtsiyTjuVAZ7uwMRdJBZg0oALFe++czQ-arGBza1ysw@mail.gmail.com>
 <007e01d6bf42$93313270$b9939750$@rainier66.com>
 <CAGSKFy3BC0jmri9fHt4ryzd9RPC6hY5YnRT7Sy9j7DJ8nm+aYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2duS_zCOaOrErmXN9aYmb1e4KeZB6D_aS4iRo+mn90RGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaraftHo0MbEP=DTXiLhnxKaXn8zfEoaCw69jY1ovRJFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2dM4p-1BCcEiiAPQoqpWEFm_V7PDdJRwhUunKQAc6SAjw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbaqYT9BB-QZ-UrzV98upLguSk-icCai2O4aj1GXgKoWQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dave = agreed - what you learn in college is not, mostly, for what you do
on your job.  It's for what you do with the other parts of your life:
your religion and philosophy; your aesthetics in the arts; your basic
understanding of people from biology, psychology, history and more.

It reminds me of a commercial in which a group of young people was asked at
the end of the ad:  so what do you talk about when you get together?
Answer - servers.  What kind of a life is that?  College opens your eyes to
the possibilities in life you will never touch on in trade school.  That
reminds me of what a medical school recommended for students who were
coming there:  learn about life.  We'll teach you the science of medicine.
Take psych, take philosophy, take history and so on.  Don't be a
narrow-minded person who knows little outside your field.

There is a lot of content in college courses that could easily be taught at
a somewhat lower level in high school or below - and should be.  A lot more
about thinking:  how to do it, how to recognize cognitive errors.
Repeating myself;  more about how to run a family - finances, buying cars
and houses, dealing with children and so on.

I think about most people in the past:  the children grew up and did what
their family had always done.  Some went into the apprentice system.  Few
outside the nobility knew anything about their world outside of the shoe
shop or the farm.  I don't want any modern child to look forward to a life
like that.  I want to open minds to their own possibilities.

bill w

On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 7:02 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 2:39 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > Dave wrote:
> >
> > >I'm in the "college isn't the best option for everyone" camp. It's
> mandatory for some professions but a waste of time and money for others.
> >
> > Well Dave, this is a straw man argument.  Nobody is saying 'everyone'.
> I'd limit college to those with IQs and other talents
> > above average as well as the interest.
>
> Well, I wasn't arguing, I was stating my opinion. And I wasn't assuming
> that "everyone" was literal. I think college is a bad choice for a lot of
> people who have the qualifications, means, and even interest. I'm also not
> saying that nobody should go to college. It *can* be a great experience and
> we do need academics. But most people would probably be better served by
> targeted occupational training that would better prepare them for their
> career in less time and at much lower cost.
>
> College is better suited to providing a classical education in
> composition, literature, history, math, arts, etc., than in job skills. I
> have a BS in Computer Science, and I learned a lot in college, but I didn't
> really learn how to be a programmer or system administrator--the jobs I've
> held since graduating. With a year of programming training I'd have been
> better-prepared, would have saved a lot of debt that took years to pay
> back, and would have had four more years of earning.
>
> -Dave
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201121/67005577/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 21 15:52:43 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 09:52:43 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Eventbrite/Zoom addiction!
In-Reply-To: <000001d6bfb8$f869f6b0$e93de410$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAGSKFy2P8YKiwM9jTu2BjOnJU4Cg-3N+iTt3bC=tLx-O+pzEbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaB+i4mjSzJr8EBCoiKier_N2VpZKw+Ca_uvKwqzLbJcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy1BtsiyTjuVAZ7uwMRdJBZg0oALFe++czQ-arGBza1ysw@mail.gmail.com>
 <007e01d6bf42$93313270$b9939750$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbmzXFQx8TF4A8Nb+gG=-3tG61mMdDvCv8-+3hQ550f_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <000001d6bfb8$f869f6b0$e93de410$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZsD28NH3iSp3VCNRbg3LEVOhGQrXgBiWwHf_zOe+_NzQ@mail.gmail.com>

On being hip:  so the man gets to be 40 something and begins the inevitable
mid life crisis, which in some cases can only be fixed with Corvettes and
Porches and the like ( and the huge costs of fixing them and tuning them).
I knew one man who bought himself a gold-plated rifle, which he never used
as he was not a hunter.

I always wondered just what the correlation is between the amount of money
spent on a man's desires and the contentment with their sex lives.  Or the
size of their equipment.  If a man has to have a Hummer.......or the
obvious meaning of a gold-plated rifle..........

bill w

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 9:49 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Eventbrite/Zoom addiction!
>
>
>
> >?I had to learn how to buy used cars and it saved me bunches.  Never
> bought a new one and would advise anyone not to.  Share your tricks,
> Spike?   bill w
>
>
>
> I have had both.  In general one does better with used cars.  For
> teenagers, I suggest recognizing this isn?t their dream machine: that can
> wait for later because they will have more money later.  Great deals can be
> had with a good solid big American rig such as the Lincoln Town Car, Crown
> Victoria and Mercury Grand Marquis.  Reason: for teenagers who live in the
> Bay Area, they don?t need to go far usually, so giving away some gas
> mileage for lowered maintenance cost is a good trade-off.  Then when they
> are ready to move up, they can get much of their money back out of it.
>
>
>
> Disclaimer: I drive a Lincoln Towncar, before that a Grand Marquis, both
> well used when I bought them, neither car cost me much of anything in
> maintenance, and what few repairs there were I was able to do them myself.
> My Towner is now 18 yrs old.  I bought it 5 yrs old and about 60k for a
> third of its sticker price, put 120k on it since then, never cost me much
> of anything.  Great car.  Still looks new.
>
>
>
> Teenagers can buy those rigs for about 5k.  Great deal.  Eh, so they are
> stodgy and square.  You look like your grandpa.  But the way I see it, that
> gives them incentive to work hard, save their money, wait till later to be
> hip.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201121/468a2a03/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 21 15:59:54 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 23:59:54 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Eventbrite/Zoom addiction!
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbaqYT9BB-QZ-UrzV98upLguSk-icCai2O4aj1GXgKoWQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy2P8YKiwM9jTu2BjOnJU4Cg-3N+iTt3bC=tLx-O+pzEbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaB+i4mjSzJr8EBCoiKier_N2VpZKw+Ca_uvKwqzLbJcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy1BtsiyTjuVAZ7uwMRdJBZg0oALFe++czQ-arGBza1ysw@mail.gmail.com>
 <007e01d6bf42$93313270$b9939750$@rainier66.com>
 <CAGSKFy3BC0jmri9fHt4ryzd9RPC6hY5YnRT7Sy9j7DJ8nm+aYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2duS_zCOaOrErmXN9aYmb1e4KeZB6D_aS4iRo+mn90RGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaraftHo0MbEP=DTXiLhnxKaXn8zfEoaCw69jY1ovRJFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2dM4p-1BCcEiiAPQoqpWEFm_V7PDdJRwhUunKQAc6SAjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbaqYT9BB-QZ-UrzV98upLguSk-icCai2O4aj1GXgKoWQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1_e=com9i1f_nGSoGeiOx3xYPfgWJzwBf8mGOK4LRrNw@mail.gmail.com>

 bill w wrote:
"Dave = agreed - what you learn in college is not, mostly, for what you do
on your job.  It's for what you do with the other parts of your life:
your religion and philosophy; your aesthetics in the arts; your basic
understanding of people from biology, psychology, history and more."

But isn't this the classic argument for a college education at the
bachelor's degree level? You attend university to broaden your horizons,
enrich your character, learn a broad overview of western thought and
history, and network with people who may be of benefit to you (or you to
them) in future years. I realize that for a long time, the sons of the
nobility, or at least the relatively wealthy, were largely the relative few
who received such an education. At this point we offer college to everyone,
but they are money guzzling factories/diploma mills to a great extent,
depending on the school and the particular student.

"I think about most people in the past:  the children grew up and did what
their family had always done.  Some went into the apprentice system.  Few
outside the nobility knew anything about their world outside of the shoe
shop or the farm.  I don't want any modern child to look forward to a life
like that.  I want to open minds to their own possibilities."

Amen!

John

On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 11:29 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Dave = agreed - what you learn in college is not, mostly, for what you do
> on your job.  It's for what you do with the other parts of your life:
> your religion and philosophy; your aesthetics in the arts; your basic
> understanding of people from biology, psychology, history and more.
>
> It reminds me of a commercial in which a group of young people was asked
> at the end of the ad:  so what do you talk about when you get together?
> Answer - servers.  What kind of a life is that?  College opens your eyes to
> the possibilities in life you will never touch on in trade school.  That
> reminds me of what a medical school recommended for students who were
> coming there:  learn about life.  We'll teach you the science of medicine.
> Take psych, take philosophy, take history and so on.  Don't be a
> narrow-minded person who knows little outside your field.
>
> There is a lot of content in college courses that could easily be taught
> at a somewhat lower level in high school or below - and should be.  A lot
> more about thinking:  how to do it, how to recognize cognitive errors.
> Repeating myself;  more about how to run a family - finances, buying cars
> and houses, dealing with children and so on.
>
> I think about most people in the past:  the children grew up and did what
> their family had always done.  Some went into the apprentice system.  Few
> outside the nobility knew anything about their world outside of the shoe
> shop or the farm.  I don't want any modern child to look forward to a life
> like that.  I want to open minds to their own possibilities.
>
> bill w
>
> On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 7:02 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 2:39 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > Dave wrote:
>> >
>> > >I'm in the "college isn't the best option for everyone" camp. It's
>> mandatory for some professions but a waste of time and money for others.
>> >
>> > Well Dave, this is a straw man argument.  Nobody is saying 'everyone'.
>> I'd limit college to those with IQs and other talents
>> > above average as well as the interest.
>>
>> Well, I wasn't arguing, I was stating my opinion. And I wasn't assuming
>> that "everyone" was literal. I think college is a bad choice for a lot of
>> people who have the qualifications, means, and even interest. I'm also not
>> saying that nobody should go to college. It *can* be a great experience and
>> we do need academics. But most people would probably be better served by
>> targeted occupational training that would better prepare them for their
>> career in less time and at much lower cost.
>>
>> College is better suited to providing a classical education in
>> composition, literature, history, math, arts, etc., than in job skills. I
>> have a BS in Computer Science, and I learned a lot in college, but I didn't
>> really learn how to be a programmer or system administrator--the jobs I've
>> held since graduating. With a year of programming training I'd have been
>> better-prepared, would have saved a lot of debt that took years to pay
>> back, and would have had four more years of earning.
>>
>> -Dave
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201121/3566d70d/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 21 16:08:40 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 00:08:40 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Love the USPS? Join the Infrastructure Appreciation Society!
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy12_Z=OAkzsTqdt2HFzTkTeJ8cdnjzY3hWMQnG9w8DD2w@mail.gmail.com>

 "It's a good time to salute infrastructure, from the postal system to the
CDC. Their often invisible work still needs to be tended?and honored."

"One of the oddest outcomes of our long global disaster has been an
emergent appreciation for big, shared, legacy institutions and the
infrastructure they support. I see it on Twitter
<https://www.wired.com/tag/twitter/>, I hear it in conversations, I read it
in the news. People care about mail sorting. They want *Stars and Stripes*
to keep publishing. They want people with medical degrees, not politicians,
to run our pandemic response. I guess being indoors a lot while the world
crumbles will make you more sensitive to the fact that you exist as a
single human node within a lattice of overlapping networks"

https://www.wired.com/story/usps-cdc-infrastructure-appreciation-society
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201122/f8e84cf1/attachment.htm>

From avant at sollegro.com  Sat Nov 21 16:11:47 2020
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 08:11:47 -0800
Subject: [ExI] The Genius Neuroscientist Who Might Hold the Key to True
 AI
In-Reply-To: <mailman.139.1605953408.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <20201121081147.Horde.lsOoShtJy9__jHzzdEBmTOJ@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>


Quoting John Grigg:


> First the bad news: The free energy principle is maddeningly difficult to
> understand. So difficult, in fact, that entire rooms of very, very smart
> people have tried and failed to grasp it. A Twitter account
> <https://twitter.com/farlkriston>2 with 3,000 followers exists simply to
> mock its opacity, and nearly every person I spoke with about it, including
> researchers whose work depends on it, told me they didn?t fully comprehend
> it.

What are they talking about? The free energy principle is hardly  
incomprehensible, instead it seems obvious to me. Minimization of  
free-energy is why chemical reactions occur in the first place and is  
a direct consequence of the second law of thermodynamics. Any work  
done by a system must be paid for by a commensurate increase in  
entropy. Living things are compartmentalized chemical reactions that  
maintain their dynamic complexity by disordering the universe around  
them whether it be splitting an ATP molecule at the cellular level, by  
eating food at an organismal level, or burning wood or fossil fuels at  
a societal level. Schrodinger wrote about this in the 20th century, so  
it is not novel.

> But often those same people hastened to add that the free energy principle,
> at its heart, tells a simple story and solves a basic puzzle. The second
> law of thermodynamics tells us that the universe tends toward entropy,
> toward dissolution; but living things fiercely resist it. We wake up every
> morning nearly the same person we were the day before, with clear
> separations between our cells and organs, and between us and the world
> without. How? Friston's free energy principle says that all life, at every
> scale of organization from single cells to the human brain, with its
> billions of neurons is driven by the same universal imperative, which can
> be reduced to a mathematical function. To be alive, he says, is to act in
> ways that reduce the gulf between your expectations and your sensory
> inputs. Or, in Fristonian terms, it is to *minimize free energy*.

We are like a super-complex omelette that requires the breaking of  
many eggs. Again not a mystery. The notion that this can be reduced to  
a mathematical function is true and seems very similar to the  
Universal Learning Function I keep harping on about. Whether you are  
rolling down hill, minimizing free energy, adapting to your  
environment through natural selection, or minimizing a neural  
network's error function, you are in principle performing the same  
algorithm of multidimensional gradient descent.

> To get a sense of the potential implications of this theory, all you have
> to do is look at the array of people who darken the FIL?s doorstep on
> Monday mornings. Some are here because they want to use the free energy
> principle to unify theories of the mind, provide a new foundation for
> biology, and explain life as we know it. Others hope the free energy
> principle will finally ground psychiatry in a functional understanding of
> the brain. And still others come because they want to use Friston?s ideas
> to break through the roadblocks in artificial intelligence
> <https://www.wired.com/tag/artificial-intelligence/> research. But they all
> have one reason in common for being here, which is that the only person who
> truly understands Karl Friston?s free energy principle may be Karl Friston
> himself."
> What do you think?

I think I want to see Karl Friston's math.

Stuart LaForge





From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 21 16:16:53 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 10:16:53 -0600
Subject: [ExI] friston
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEamuaErQVdbwJ3rEZcRYDtaPQBfauzxenPUKH+Nx_Jppw@mail.gmail.com>

Minimizing prediction error; trying to prevent surprises.  Seems rather
obvious to me.

Then I think of Bohr's quote about quantum theory, to the effect that if
you think you understand it, you are really confused.

bill w
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201121/ddd799c1/attachment.htm>

From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Nov 21 16:44:02 2020
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 16:44:02 +0000
Subject: [ExI] The Genius Neuroscientist Who Might Hold the Key to True
 AI
In-Reply-To: <20201121081147.Horde.lsOoShtJy9__jHzzdEBmTOJ@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <mailman.139.1605953408.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <20201121081147.Horde.lsOoShtJy9__jHzzdEBmTOJ@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhNSWQ=gY9JEQNu5=VNfOFoaHyusxPVQfk2-Ja4XO4qdQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 21 Nov 2020 at 16:16, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
<snip>
> I think I want to see Karl Friston's math.
>
> Stuart LaForge
> _______________________________________________

See:  <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_energy_principle>
The references include links to Friston's papers.


BillK

From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Nov 21 17:17:52 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 09:17:52 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Eventbrite/Zoom addiction!
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZsD28NH3iSp3VCNRbg3LEVOhGQrXgBiWwHf_zOe+_NzQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy2P8YKiwM9jTu2BjOnJU4Cg-3N+iTt3bC=tLx-O+pzEbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaB+i4mjSzJr8EBCoiKier_N2VpZKw+Ca_uvKwqzLbJcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy1BtsiyTjuVAZ7uwMRdJBZg0oALFe++czQ-arGBza1ysw@mail.gmail.com>
 <007e01d6bf42$93313270$b9939750$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbmzXFQx8TF4A8Nb+gG=-3tG61mMdDvCv8-+3hQ550f_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <000001d6bfb8$f869f6b0$e93de410$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZsD28NH3iSp3VCNRbg3LEVOhGQrXgBiWwHf_zOe+_NzQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007201d6c02a$3ef9dc50$bced94f0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] Eventbrite/Zoom addiction!

 

>?On being hip:  so the man gets to be 40 something and begins the inevitable mid life crisis, which in some cases can only be fixed with Corvettes and Porches and the like ( and the huge costs of fixing them and tuning them).  I knew one man who bought himself a gold-plated rifle, which he never used as he was not a hunter?

 

bill w

 

billw I have heard of this mid-life crisis business but it hasn?t happened yet.  Mine is waaaay overdue.  This is most annoying, for I look forward to the frivolous fun stuff I will buy when I get a perfectly good excuse: midlife crisis, it?s inevitable you know, we boys all get it at some point.  Is there some kind of therapy or medication one can take to initiate that process?  I tried Despondex, but it didn?t work: 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd4tugPM83c

 

I will feel really cheated if my middle years come and go but my crisis never happens.

 

spike

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201121/613f8064/attachment-0001.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Nov 21 17:23:56 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 09:23:56 -0800
Subject: [ExI] The Genius Neuroscientist Who Might Hold the Key to True
 AI
In-Reply-To: <20201121081147.Horde.lsOoShtJy9__jHzzdEBmTOJ@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <mailman.139.1605953408.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <20201121081147.Horde.lsOoShtJy9__jHzzdEBmTOJ@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <007901d6c02b$1842b540$48c81fc0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat


Quoting John Grigg:


>> First the bad news: The free energy principle is maddeningly difficult 
> to understand. ...

>...What are they talking about? The free energy principle is hardly
incomprehensible, instead it seems obvious to me. Minimization of
free-energy is why chemical reactions occur in the first place and is a
direct consequence of the second law of thermodynamics. ...
Stuart LaForge




_______________________________________________


I think of the concept in term of Gibb's formulation.  We know how it works.
Why it works that way is a mystery, just as the second law: we see that it
works.  It isn't clear why exactly.

spike


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 21 17:53:29 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 01:53:29 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Eventbrite/Zoom addiction!
In-Reply-To: <007201d6c02a$3ef9dc50$bced94f0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAGSKFy2P8YKiwM9jTu2BjOnJU4Cg-3N+iTt3bC=tLx-O+pzEbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaB+i4mjSzJr8EBCoiKier_N2VpZKw+Ca_uvKwqzLbJcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy1BtsiyTjuVAZ7uwMRdJBZg0oALFe++czQ-arGBza1ysw@mail.gmail.com>
 <007e01d6bf42$93313270$b9939750$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbmzXFQx8TF4A8Nb+gG=-3tG61mMdDvCv8-+3hQ550f_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <000001d6bfb8$f869f6b0$e93de410$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZsD28NH3iSp3VCNRbg3LEVOhGQrXgBiWwHf_zOe+_NzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007201d6c02a$3ef9dc50$bced94f0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy09pGdRYNou1UEpRTzdeTc+xGwfNH2Cz-76tN9-j-JWNg@mail.gmail.com>

 Spike wrote:
"I will feel really cheated if my middle years come and go but my crisis
never happens."

What would a Spike worthy mid-life crisis be like? I know, you convert all
your savings into Bitcoin! Lol Or you sign up to join Elon Musk on his
colonization trip to Mars...

I suppose mine was moving to the Philippines, taking on a family, and
having a biological child of my own (currently still under construction)...

John  :  )


On Sun, Nov 22, 2020 at 1:20 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Eventbrite/Zoom addiction!
>
>
>
> >?On being hip:  so the man gets to be 40 something and begins the
> inevitable mid life crisis, which in some cases can only be fixed with
> Corvettes and Porches and the like ( and the huge costs of fixing them and
> tuning them).  I knew one man who bought himself a gold-plated rifle, which
> he never used as he was not a hunter?
>
>
>
> bill w
>
>
>
> billw I have heard of this mid-life crisis business but it hasn?t happened
> yet.  Mine is waaaay overdue.  This is most annoying, for I look forward to
> the frivolous fun stuff I will buy when I get a perfectly good excuse:
> midlife crisis, it?s inevitable you know, we boys all get it at some
> point.  Is there some kind of therapy or medication one can take to
> initiate that process?  I tried Despondex, but it didn?t work:
>
>
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd4tugPM83c
>
>
>
> I will feel really cheated if my middle years come and go but my crisis
> never happens.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201122/b9727682/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Nov 21 18:27:44 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 10:27:44 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Eventbrite/Zoom addiction!
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy09pGdRYNou1UEpRTzdeTc+xGwfNH2Cz-76tN9-j-JWNg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy2P8YKiwM9jTu2BjOnJU4Cg-3N+iTt3bC=tLx-O+pzEbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaB+i4mjSzJr8EBCoiKier_N2VpZKw+Ca_uvKwqzLbJcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy1BtsiyTjuVAZ7uwMRdJBZg0oALFe++czQ-arGBza1ysw@mail.gmail.com>
 <007e01d6bf42$93313270$b9939750$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbmzXFQx8TF4A8Nb+gG=-3tG61mMdDvCv8-+3hQ550f_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <000001d6bfb8$f869f6b0$e93de410$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZsD28NH3iSp3VCNRbg3LEVOhGQrXgBiWwHf_zOe+_NzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007201d6c02a$3ef9dc50$bced94f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAGSKFy09pGdRYNou1UEpRTzdeTc+xGwfNH2Cz-76tN9-j-JWNg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00b901d6c034$0211c640$063552c0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of John Grigg via extropy-chat
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2020 9:53 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Eventbrite/Zoom addiction!

 

Spike wrote:

"I will feel really cheated if my middle years come and go but my crisis never happens." 

 

What would a Spike worthy mid-life crisis be like? I know, you convert all your savings into Bitcoin! Lol Or you sign up to join Elon Musk on his colonization trip to Mars...

 

I suppose mine was moving to the Philippines, taking on a family, and having a biological child of my own (currently still under construction)...

 

John  :  )

 

 

Hi John, I may be misunderstanding the concept, but I had always thought the point of a midlife crisis was to do something frivolous, extravagant, self-indulgent, the kind of thing a man does when one suddenly realizes he can afford it.  Wellll? I realized a long time ago that I could afford any motorcycle I wanted, I could afford a sports car or a plane or a mistress or a boat, any of those classic midlife crisis things, a gold plated rifle I suppose (why gold plated?) but when those years came I was just too busy to take the time.  My career had me kiting back and forth across the country every other week doing a project which was really cool.  The kinds of self-indulgent frivolous extravagances I would have bought under that excuse all take time to enjoy, and I just didn?t have a lot of extra time then.

 

So? I never bought any of them. my midlife was tragically squandered with work.  Damn.

 

Now I have time.  But some dreams are outgrown.  Go down the list.  I can have any motorcycle I want.  Sure OK.  But? since my son was born, my bride is not allowed on the back of that bike: I can?t risk both of us getting killed at the same time.  So? motorcycle touring is too lonely.  Boat: go to Lake Tahoe, pay a feller a coupla hundred bucks to take you out, you tear around the lake a few times, you realize OK that was fun, kinda.  Water ski a few times behind it, hmmm ok then.  Hire a feller to take you cruising out to sea or sailing, you get out there, realize there isn?t much to do out there.  Conclusion: no boats.  Sports car: tear around like your ass is on fire, realize that is kinda fun, but if you do this much, the local constabulary will take interest in your drivers license.  Mistress: out of the question.  Plane: that?s kinda cool, but all you can do really is fly around and look at stuff on the ground.  But you can already do that with Google Maps.  

 

Gold plated rifle: as soon as a goof does that, he realizes he can?t even take his shooting buddies out with him: too embarrassing.  Anyone who uses rifles knows there is a reason why the barrels are black: so they don?t reflect light into your eyes as you aim.  You would scare away the game with your gleaming gun barrel, and even if it didn?t, the game would be spooked by the sound of scornful laughter, coming from your friends ridiculing your foolishly ruining a perfectly good gun with gold plating.  You would come home empty-handed.

 

Now, my middle age years have come and gone.  It is getting too late for a midlife crisis.  If I had one now, I would be ridiculed for having an old-age crisis, which just isn?t the same thing.  I outgrew most of the silliness I would have bought back then.

 

The whole notion gives me an idea: start a company which arranges for guys to have an old-age crisis.  They have even more money than the mid-lifers, but are less likely to go in for the traditional boat/plane/mistress/sports car/gold rifle class of silliness.  What could we offer?

 

spike

 

 

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201121/90820b75/attachment.htm>

From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Nov 21 18:34:05 2020
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 18:34:05 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Eventbrite/Zoom addiction!
In-Reply-To: <007201d6c02a$3ef9dc50$bced94f0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAGSKFy2P8YKiwM9jTu2BjOnJU4Cg-3N+iTt3bC=tLx-O+pzEbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaB+i4mjSzJr8EBCoiKier_N2VpZKw+Ca_uvKwqzLbJcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy1BtsiyTjuVAZ7uwMRdJBZg0oALFe++czQ-arGBza1ysw@mail.gmail.com>
 <007e01d6bf42$93313270$b9939750$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbmzXFQx8TF4A8Nb+gG=-3tG61mMdDvCv8-+3hQ550f_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <000001d6bfb8$f869f6b0$e93de410$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZsD28NH3iSp3VCNRbg3LEVOhGQrXgBiWwHf_zOe+_NzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007201d6c02a$3ef9dc50$bced94f0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhzDzKkVWZuQV-PY7RPsYHQDZbb+w7MjWSL0a856404vQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 21 Nov 2020 at 17:20, spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> billw I have heard of this mid-life crisis business but it hasn?t
happened yet.  Mine is waaaay overdue.  This is most annoying, for I look
forward to the frivolous fun stuff I will buy when I get a perfectly good
excuse: midlife crisis, it?s inevitable you know, we boys all get it at
some point.  Is there some kind of therapy or medication one can take to
initiate that process?  I tried Despondex, but it didn?t work:
>
> I will feel really cheated if my middle years come and go but my crisis
never happens.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________



You are already living your mid-life crisis!   :)

BillK
[image: biker.jpg]
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201121/f9201015/attachment-0001.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: biker.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 80036 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201121/f9201015/attachment-0001.jpg>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 21 18:40:01 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 12:40:01 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Eventbrite/Zoom addiction!
In-Reply-To: <007201d6c02a$3ef9dc50$bced94f0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAGSKFy2P8YKiwM9jTu2BjOnJU4Cg-3N+iTt3bC=tLx-O+pzEbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaB+i4mjSzJr8EBCoiKier_N2VpZKw+Ca_uvKwqzLbJcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy1BtsiyTjuVAZ7uwMRdJBZg0oALFe++czQ-arGBza1ysw@mail.gmail.com>
 <007e01d6bf42$93313270$b9939750$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbmzXFQx8TF4A8Nb+gG=-3tG61mMdDvCv8-+3hQ550f_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <000001d6bfb8$f869f6b0$e93de410$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZsD28NH3iSp3VCNRbg3LEVOhGQrXgBiWwHf_zOe+_NzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007201d6c02a$3ef9dc50$bced94f0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYG488wV6iw-+1N2mNrRyWdZ+fbAWop2PRGddvj4HHBhg@mail.gmail.com>

Spike, you just have a sunny disposition - you can't help it.  But you can
change:  here's some ways:  hold a pencil in your teeth - that is
guaranteed to keep you from smiling; ;it also prevents some happy brain
chemicals from being emitted (true - studies on that).

If you subscribe to the principle of whatever works,then try pain.  I have
no suggestion as to how to get it. If you are really interested, you could
cut off some body part that will interfere with very pleasurable aspects of
your life.

Take your sax and play it in public - not too well.  You want to elicit
frowns and such from passersby which your brain can then imitate.

Ram one of your Town Cars into the other one and sit in contemplation of
life.  If still happy, trash your motorcycle.  Meditate on the meaning of
this.  Apply for a grant for this kind of modern art.

Cook a chicken far beyond well done, so far that wolves would not eat it,
and think about what the chicken would feel if it knew that it would meet
an end like you provided.

Read Camus and Sartre.

Well, you get the idea.  Just let your native creativity blossom into the
black moods you so obviously seek.  Compared to most people, you know that
you are missing more than half of life, which the rest of us spend worrying
and obsessing with things that will never happen, and depressed about the
things that have happened..

I will sorrowfully provide more examples if you find that these just don't
work for you.

bill w

On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 11:20 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Eventbrite/Zoom addiction!
>
>
>
> >?On being hip:  so the man gets to be 40 something and begins the
> inevitable mid life crisis, which in some cases can only be fixed with
> Corvettes and Porches and the like ( and the huge costs of fixing them and
> tuning them).  I knew one man who bought himself a gold-plated rifle, which
> he never used as he was not a hunter?
>
>
>
> bill w
>
>
>
> billw I have heard of this mid-life crisis business but it hasn?t happened
> yet.  Mine is waaaay overdue.  This is most annoying, for I look forward to
> the frivolous fun stuff I will buy when I get a perfectly good excuse:
> midlife crisis, it?s inevitable you know, we boys all get it at some
> point.  Is there some kind of therapy or medication one can take to
> initiate that process?  I tried Despondex, but it didn?t work:
>
>
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd4tugPM83c
>
>
>
> I will feel really cheated if my middle years come and go but my crisis
> never happens.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201121/a5b6b80d/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Nov 21 18:53:13 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 10:53:13 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Eventbrite/Zoom addiction!
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhzDzKkVWZuQV-PY7RPsYHQDZbb+w7MjWSL0a856404vQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy2P8YKiwM9jTu2BjOnJU4Cg-3N+iTt3bC=tLx-O+pzEbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaB+i4mjSzJr8EBCoiKier_N2VpZKw+Ca_uvKwqzLbJcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy1BtsiyTjuVAZ7uwMRdJBZg0oALFe++czQ-arGBza1ysw@mail.gmail.com>
 <007e01d6bf42$93313270$b9939750$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbmzXFQx8TF4A8Nb+gG=-3tG61mMdDvCv8-+3hQ550f_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <000001d6bfb8$f869f6b0$e93de410$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZsD28NH3iSp3VCNRbg3LEVOhGQrXgBiWwHf_zOe+_NzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007201d6c02a$3ef9dc50$bced94f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armhzDzKkVWZuQV-PY7RPsYHQDZbb+w7MjWSL0a856404vQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00d301d6c037$9126ed30$b374c790$@rainier66.com>

 

 

> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat




>
> I will feel really cheated if my middle years come and go but my crisis never happens.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________

 

 

 

>?You are already living your mid-life crisis!   :)

 

BillK



 

 

BillK, if this is my midlife crisis, I don?t know how I will cope once it is over.  There just ain?t enough Despondex to bring me down.

 

Regarding the picture above, here?s how you can easily tell they are taking a photo in front of a backdrop with fans blowing their hair: real bikers don?t ride in that posture.  If your bike has ape-hangers, you tilt them forward so you are leaning into the wind.  Otherwise you are hanging on your hands from the wind-load, which means you aren?t going far.

 

Other indications: at freeway speed, the handlebar fringes don?t trail at 30 degrees from horizontal: they are straight back.  The seam from the black horizontal surface to the vertical backdrop is very clear.  If you have ever been to sand dune country, you know that sand dunes travel like waves on the sea.  They don?t come right up to the edge of the road like that and just stop.  Do take a trip sometime out to Death Valley National Park and see some real dunes.  It is a kick.  But you hafta walk out to them from the road.  If they built a paved road out to the dunes, it would be buried under sand half the time.

 

But I digress.  Ja I have been living my midlife crisis most of my life and I do cheerfully recognize I am damn lucky, way more so than I deserve.  I have already done the things I wanted to do.  Now I just want to do more of those things.

 

spike

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201121/72a257ce/attachment.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image003.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 21339 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201121/72a257ce/attachment.jpg>

From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Nov 21 19:02:56 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 11:02:56 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Eventbrite/Zoom addiction!
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYG488wV6iw-+1N2mNrRyWdZ+fbAWop2PRGddvj4HHBhg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy2P8YKiwM9jTu2BjOnJU4Cg-3N+iTt3bC=tLx-O+pzEbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaB+i4mjSzJr8EBCoiKier_N2VpZKw+Ca_uvKwqzLbJcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy1BtsiyTjuVAZ7uwMRdJBZg0oALFe++czQ-arGBza1ysw@mail.gmail.com>
 <007e01d6bf42$93313270$b9939750$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbmzXFQx8TF4A8Nb+gG=-3tG61mMdDvCv8-+3hQ550f_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <000001d6bfb8$f869f6b0$e93de410$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZsD28NH3iSp3VCNRbg3LEVOhGQrXgBiWwHf_zOe+_NzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007201d6c02a$3ef9dc50$bced94f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYG488wV6iw-+1N2mNrRyWdZ+fbAWop2PRGddvj4HHBhg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00ed01d6c038$ec94bac0$c5be3040$@rainier66.com>

 

 

> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] Eventbrite/Zoom addiction!

 

>?Spike, you just have a sunny disposition - you can't help it.  But you can change:  here's some ways:  ?

I will sorrowfully provide more examples if you find that these just don't work for you.  bill w

 

 

Hi billw,

 

Irony: my favorite movies and literature are dark.  You already know an example of one.  Most of the books I recommend are ones people generally hate.  

 

The Steinbeck museum is near here, so I got talking to the guy who does the lectures, he realized I had read them all, so he asked which was my favorite.  I reported really liking Grapes of Wrath, but my favorite of all was East of Eden.  He was so surprised, he just doesn?t understand why otherwise sane people would like the dark stuff.  Oh well.  I also liked the comedies (Cannery Row trilogy (but then he pointed out those aren?t really comedies.))  I didn?t really find either Grapes or Eden novels dark, even though a lotta bad things happened to good people.  Life is that way.  Life isn?t fair.  But life is good.  Good is better than fair.

 

spike  

 

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201121/37b416c4/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 21 19:46:10 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 13:46:10 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Eventbrite/Zoom addiction!
In-Reply-To: <00ed01d6c038$ec94bac0$c5be3040$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAGSKFy2P8YKiwM9jTu2BjOnJU4Cg-3N+iTt3bC=tLx-O+pzEbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaB+i4mjSzJr8EBCoiKier_N2VpZKw+Ca_uvKwqzLbJcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy1BtsiyTjuVAZ7uwMRdJBZg0oALFe++czQ-arGBza1ysw@mail.gmail.com>
 <007e01d6bf42$93313270$b9939750$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbmzXFQx8TF4A8Nb+gG=-3tG61mMdDvCv8-+3hQ550f_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <000001d6bfb8$f869f6b0$e93de410$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZsD28NH3iSp3VCNRbg3LEVOhGQrXgBiWwHf_zOe+_NzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007201d6c02a$3ef9dc50$bced94f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYG488wV6iw-+1N2mNrRyWdZ+fbAWop2PRGddvj4HHBhg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ed01d6c038$ec94bac0$c5be3040$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbRd4JQbdUF5TC=_TA3OxtOfRTszP8NfZc_X7yJGPBCzw@mail.gmail.com>

I checked it out and East of Eden is next on my list.  I don't know how to
characterize Tortilla Flat, nor Cannery Row and Sweet Thursday.  Romantic,
certainly.  I think all of these are about love.  Doc standing in front of
the boiler holding flowers.  One of the boys breaking his arm and then
crying so Doc had to take the girl south for the sea creatures collections.

All the boys are rogues of a sort - picaroons at a certain low level -
thieves.  But you really can't find any sin in them.  You have to love them
even though the last thing in your mind is to be like any of them in
lifestyle (except Doc.), but they have moral lessons to teach us about love
and friendship.

bill w

 -   On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 1:04 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Eventbrite/Zoom addiction!
>
>
>
> >?Spike, you just have a sunny disposition - you can't help it.  But you
> can change:  here's some ways:  ?
>
> I will sorrowfully provide more examples if you find that these just don't
> work for you.  bill w
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi billw,
>
>
>
> Irony: my favorite movies and literature are dark.  You already know an
> example of one.  Most of the books I recommend are ones people generally
> hate.
>
>
>
> The Steinbeck museum is near here, so I got talking to the guy who does
> the lectures, he realized I had read them all, so he asked which was my
> favorite.  I reported really liking Grapes of Wrath, but my favorite of all
> was East of Eden.  He was so surprised, he just doesn?t understand why
> otherwise sane people would like the dark stuff.  Oh well.  I also liked
> the comedies (Cannery Row trilogy (but then he pointed out those aren?t
> really comedies.))  I didn?t really find either Grapes or Eden novels dark,
> even though a lotta bad things happened to good people.  Life is that way.
> Life isn?t fair.  But life is good.  Good is better than fair.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201121/8db6016a/attachment.htm>

From ben at zaiboc.net  Sat Nov 21 23:29:45 2020
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 23:29:45 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Eventbrite/Zoom addiction!
In-Reply-To: <mailman.138.1605953408.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.138.1605953408.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <28772e19-63a6-d4d1-458a-db69cfa02975@zaiboc.net>

On 21/11/2020 10:10, bill w wrote:
> For many, college is a party place where you can figure out who you 
> are and what you want. And it should be FREE!

I couldn't agree more.

I was lucky enough to go to college on a grant, not a loan (in England, 
in the days when such a thing was possible). I didn't actually achieve 
much directly at the time, and most of my 'real' (useful) education 
happened after that, but it was a life-changing experience, and I'm so 
glad I was able to do it. I shudder to think where I might be now, if 
things had been different.

-- 
Ben Zaiboc

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201121/430e7082/attachment.htm>

From ben at zaiboc.net  Sat Nov 21 23:47:48 2020
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 23:47:48 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Mid-life crisis (was:Re:  Eventbrite/Zoom addiction!)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.140.1605979087.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.140.1605979087.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <8e684691-2c2c-e03b-1128-76bf3a1a1c9e@zaiboc.net>

On 21/11/2020 17:18, bill w wrote:
> ... so the man gets to be 40 something and begins the inevitable mid 
> life crisis, ...

Maybe I'm just odd, but I don't think this 'mid-life crisis' thing is 
inevitable at all. It has never hit me, and I can see my 40's rapidly 
receding in my rear-view mirror. Maybe it lies ahead, or maybe I've 
dodged it altogether. I think it could be a result of perspective, 
though, and mine is much more optimistic than the mindset that after 40 
or so (these days, more like 50 or 60, I reckon), life is all downhill.

-- 
Ben Zaiboc


From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Nov 22 01:10:38 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 17:10:38 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Eventbrite/Zoom addiction!
In-Reply-To: <28772e19-63a6-d4d1-458a-db69cfa02975@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.138.1605953408.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <28772e19-63a6-d4d1-458a-db69cfa02975@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <005901d6c06c$4a512080$def36180$@rainier66.com>

 

 

Subject: Re: [ExI] Eventbrite/Zoom addiction!

 

On 21/11/2020 10:10, bill w wrote:



For many, college is a party place where you can figure out who you are and
what you want.  And it should be FREE!  Billw

 

 

If it is free, they don't need to figure out who they are and what they
want.  They want to party for free and it doesn't matter who they are.

 

spike





 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201121/cf4a7099/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 22 08:47:25 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 16:47:25 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Jack Ma versus the CCP- inside the collapse of the world's
 biggest IPO
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1Mc6cxHfFK6_sy3z0OBFzZAwFuhSBzNkkTYGD9hFSHFQ@mail.gmail.com>

I really look up to Jack Ma, and see him as a great role model. And so I am
very saddened at how Xi and his government have come down on Ma. But this
article explains well what the CCP motivations were in this matter. Ma is
largely guilty of being a successful capitalist, and seizing a huge
opportunity when China's banks sat on their hands for a long time...

https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/The-Big-Story/Jack-Ma-vs.-the-Party-Inside-the-collapse-of-the-world-s-biggest-IPO
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201122/de525574/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 22 14:28:24 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 22:28:24 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Study Finds Breakthrough Oxygen Therapy Reverses Aging Process
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy0055o7LJqF+E4Os=M7zQicCcKUXmwxRY2EkUP9RXoBOg@mail.gmail.com>

I am quite astonished by what has been learned... I wonder to what extent
this treatment could extend human lifespan, for those who do it regularly,
starting at a fairly young age?

https://www.studyfinds.org/breakthrough-oxygen-therapy-reverses-aging-process/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201122/e23e5237/attachment-0001.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 22 14:32:09 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 22:32:09 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Graphic Novel Review: 10 Billion is a sci-fi tale of
 astonishing scope and visual imagination
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy0bQqtdmZyUuvjGpZdCvTF_6_+tYucb1qViJDes9iHRXw@mail.gmail.com>

"People in the modern industrial world tend to believe either that our
current civilization is destined to advance forever, or that it?s
imminently doomed to collapse. That is a longtime lament of author John
Michael Greer, who rejects both views. The former is fallacious, he argues,
because it ignores the fact that infinite growth of anything is impossible,
whereas the latter flouts the overwhelming body of historical evidence
showing that civilizations end gradually, not abruptly. In a 2013 blog post
titled ?The Next 10 Billion Years
<https://www.resilience.org/stories/2013-09-05/the-next-ten-billion-years/>,?
Greer outlined an alternative scenario in which our current society neither
grows forever nor crashes spectacularly, but slowly runs its course. A
brilliant critique of present-day human hubris, this scenario reveals our
civilization to be subject to the same natural processes as all
civilizations that have come before it.

*10 Billion* vividly reimagines Greer?s blog post as a graphic novel. Told
and illustrated in an immersive comic book style, it gives potent visual
form to the original text. Marcu Knoesen?s adaptation is completely
faithful, using Greer?s essay as an almost verbatim script, but adds some
elements out of narrative necessity. For example, Greer?s piece, being more
of a scenario than a story, mostly lacks characters and interpersonal
conflicts, hence Knoesen?s creation of determined billionaire businessman
Mr. Davon. He?s bent on achieving immortality by transferring his
consciousness into an artificial intelligence his company is developing.
However, progress on this breakthrough has stalled, and Davon has decided
to turn to the counsel of a famed oracle known as ?the Master,? whose
predictions have been astoundingly accurate. Upon journeying to the
Master?s remote forest dwelling, Davon is permitted a glimpse into an
unexpected, almost incomprehensibly strange future."

I really look forward to reading this graphic novel...

https://www.resilience.org/stories/2020-11-20/graphic-novel-review-10-billion-is-a-sci-fi-tale-of-astonishing-scope-and-visual-imagination/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201122/16dfb75e/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 22 14:52:52 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 22:52:52 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Games: Cyberpunk 2077
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3-f9WEq2oaWctm5iYqn+rUK6+rqGFJYAS2kwCtwMz27g@mail.gmail.com>

I have not seen a video game hyped this much in a long time... I'm old
enough that I have found it fascinating to watch technology and
storytelling come together, as they have...

Do any of you have fond memories of gaming? What do you think of this one?

The trailer...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPppjjvjQlk

Exploring the world of Cyberpunk 2077...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlyDJVYqfpA&vl=en

Behind the scenes...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fa3_Mfqu8KA
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201122/7d3fda30/attachment.htm>

From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Sun Nov 22 15:57:18 2020
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 10:57:18 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Giving up autonomy for cryogenic suspension
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyExZin1xyEkvcV6s9dumX9K3gnZ6dtO4PkDxYup=76UFw@mail.gmail.com>

One of my personal nightmare scenarios is being frozen, having my body
stolen in the hundreds-of-years interim, and waking up imprisoned as some
kind of fucked up slave, possibly a sex slave.

I've never heard anyone talk about this but in my opinion it's a huge
issue.  You are trusting people with your body, not just to keep it alive,
but to keep it safe from interlocutors.  How is it possible to guarantee
safety over these time periods?  Who's to say Alcor doesn't go bankrupt, or
suffer a burglary, in 70 years or something?

Is there any philosophically rigorous solution to this?  The only thing I
can really think of is some kind of system that would wake you up
periodically to check on things and decide if you wanted to stay frozen,
but that's likely not possible (at least yet.) Any security can be broken,
right?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201122/96e7e7c4/attachment.htm>

From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Nov 22 16:14:24 2020
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 08:14:24 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Games: Cyberpunk 2077
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy3-f9WEq2oaWctm5iYqn+rUK6+rqGFJYAS2kwCtwMz27g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy3-f9WEq2oaWctm5iYqn+rUK6+rqGFJYAS2kwCtwMz27g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSxMiOj7PRWHRS_-Vp+-RL0H5kC8gek-vzNmc8eA94qDQ@mail.gmail.com>

I'd say I've seen Super Mario's 35th anniversary being hyped more than
this, but it depends on which media you watch: they're definitely for
different audiences, and thus get hyped in different circles.

On Sun, Nov 22, 2020 at 6:54 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I have not seen a video game hyped this much in a long time... I'm old
> enough that I have found it fascinating to watch technology and
> storytelling come together, as they have...
>
> Do any of you have fond memories of gaming? What do you think of this one?
>
> The trailer...
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPppjjvjQlk
>
> Exploring the world of Cyberpunk 2077...
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlyDJVYqfpA&vl=en
>
> Behind the scenes...
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fa3_Mfqu8KA
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201122/e5f272dc/attachment.htm>

From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Sun Nov 22 16:22:36 2020
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 11:22:36 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Games: Cyberpunk 2077
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy3-f9WEq2oaWctm5iYqn+rUK6+rqGFJYAS2kwCtwMz27g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy3-f9WEq2oaWctm5iYqn+rUK6+rqGFJYAS2kwCtwMz27g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyFKdLkwX7qrAwm-FeRcMhK+EQ0=Zrt04=ZhHvf-vSDcHQ@mail.gmail.com>

It's overhyped imo.  No way it will be as good as people expect.

On Sun, Nov 22, 2020, 9:53 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I have not seen a video game hyped this much in a long time... I'm old
> enough that I have found it fascinating to watch technology and
> storytelling come together, as they have...
>
> Do any of you have fond memories of gaming? What do you think of this one?
>
> The trailer...
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPppjjvjQlk
>
> Exploring the world of Cyberpunk 2077...
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlyDJVYqfpA&vl=en
>
> Behind the scenes...
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fa3_Mfqu8KA
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201122/1c21edbb/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 22 16:29:04 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 10:29:04 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Games: Cyberpunk 2077
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyFKdLkwX7qrAwm-FeRcMhK+EQ0=Zrt04=ZhHvf-vSDcHQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy3-f9WEq2oaWctm5iYqn+rUK6+rqGFJYAS2kwCtwMz27g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyFKdLkwX7qrAwm-FeRcMhK+EQ0=Zrt04=ZhHvf-vSDcHQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaacEvreheLiwDdnsea81p1zZOaXH-zqsKNwRqRTWZ2hg@mail.gmail.com>

My video game experience is limited to Pong.  I really liked it!

For people rather new to the list, here is the funniest thing that has ever
happened to me re computers.  I got a PCJr. and a cartridge of Making
Money.  In that you could estimate your life insurance needs.   So I was
filling it out, sex, age, etc. and when it came to smoking I checked Yes
and got this error message (which obviously was based on a error in
entering my age):  "You are 4 years old and you smoke?  Are you crazy?"

; bill w

On Sun, Nov 22, 2020 at 10:24 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> It's overhyped imo.  No way it will be as good as people expect.
>
> On Sun, Nov 22, 2020, 9:53 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> I have not seen a video game hyped this much in a long time... I'm old
>> enough that I have found it fascinating to watch technology and
>> storytelling come together, as they have...
>>
>> Do any of you have fond memories of gaming? What do you think of this one?
>>
>> The trailer...
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPppjjvjQlk
>>
>> Exploring the world of Cyberpunk 2077...
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlyDJVYqfpA&vl=en
>>
>> Behind the scenes...
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fa3_Mfqu8KA
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201122/83d0483d/attachment.htm>

From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Nov 22 16:40:17 2020
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 08:40:17 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Giving up autonomy for cryogenic suspension
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyExZin1xyEkvcV6s9dumX9K3gnZ6dtO4PkDxYup=76UFw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKrqSyExZin1xyEkvcV6s9dumX9K3gnZ6dtO4PkDxYup=76UFw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTS0Lo3raWVbwnVDpN8gY-0o9VpM0ef704AYpxCp8=5ZQ@mail.gmail.com>

It seems certain that reviving us will be expensive, the kind of
"expensive" likely to be done to finally relieve Alcor or its descendant
organization from having to keep us frozen.

While it is possible we may be forced to labor to pay off debts (despite
having prepaid our suspension), that kind of "expensive" can't be paid off
with simple slave labor - sex or otherwise.  Far more likely is that we
will wake up with few or no resources (whoever wakes us up thinking that
having done so is a sufficient investment in resources to resolve their
obligation to us), akin to the modern homeless, and need to labor to
survive.  Either way, it is likely that robots will have taken over most
menial labor jobs by then, leaving only types of labor that is at least
mildly intellectually stimulating.

Granted, this is not guaranteed - but no situation where you must trust
someone else can be.  In these cases, the best that can be done is to
ensure that the outcome you desire is in the best interests of the one you
must trust, and that seems to be the case in this situation.

On Sun, Nov 22, 2020 at 7:59 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> One of my personal nightmare scenarios is being frozen, having my body
> stolen in the hundreds-of-years interim, and waking up imprisoned as some
> kind of fucked up slave, possibly a sex slave.
>
> I've never heard anyone talk about this but in my opinion it's a huge
> issue.  You are trusting people with your body, not just to keep it alive,
> but to keep it safe from interlocutors.  How is it possible to guarantee
> safety over these time periods?  Who's to say Alcor doesn't go bankrupt, or
> suffer a burglary, in 70 years or something?
>
> Is there any philosophically rigorous solution to this?  The only thing I
> can really think of is some kind of system that would wake you up
> periodically to check on things and decide if you wanted to stay frozen,
> but that's likely not possible (at least yet.) Any security can be broken,
> right?
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201122/f10f58ff/attachment.htm>

From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Sun Nov 22 16:45:35 2020
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 11:45:35 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Giving up autonomy for cryogenic suspension
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTS0Lo3raWVbwnVDpN8gY-0o9VpM0ef704AYpxCp8=5ZQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKrqSyExZin1xyEkvcV6s9dumX9K3gnZ6dtO4PkDxYup=76UFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTS0Lo3raWVbwnVDpN8gY-0o9VpM0ef704AYpxCp8=5ZQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyGdmQcRD1qek=bjK-Q7eS=4=Qq2gtfwUvFwEg2Qq=DFSg@mail.gmail.com>

I don't think it's possible to assess the monetary price of waking up
someone cryogenically in 100 years.

On Sun, Nov 22, 2020 at 11:41 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> It seems certain that reviving us will be expensive, the kind of
> "expensive" likely to be done to finally relieve Alcor or its descendant
> organization from having to keep us frozen.
>
> While it is possible we may be forced to labor to pay off debts (despite
> having prepaid our suspension), that kind of "expensive" can't be paid off
> with simple slave labor - sex or otherwise.  Far more likely is that we
> will wake up with few or no resources (whoever wakes us up thinking that
> having done so is a sufficient investment in resources to resolve their
> obligation to us), akin to the modern homeless, and need to labor to
> survive.  Either way, it is likely that robots will have taken over most
> menial labor jobs by then, leaving only types of labor that is at least
> mildly intellectually stimulating.
>
> Granted, this is not guaranteed - but no situation where you must trust
> someone else can be.  In these cases, the best that can be done is to
> ensure that the outcome you desire is in the best interests of the one you
> must trust, and that seems to be the case in this situation.
>
> On Sun, Nov 22, 2020 at 7:59 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> One of my personal nightmare scenarios is being frozen, having my body
>> stolen in the hundreds-of-years interim, and waking up imprisoned as some
>> kind of fucked up slave, possibly a sex slave.
>>
>> I've never heard anyone talk about this but in my opinion it's a huge
>> issue.  You are trusting people with your body, not just to keep it alive,
>> but to keep it safe from interlocutors.  How is it possible to guarantee
>> safety over these time periods?  Who's to say Alcor doesn't go bankrupt, or
>> suffer a burglary, in 70 years or something?
>>
>> Is there any philosophically rigorous solution to this?  The only thing I
>> can really think of is some kind of system that would wake you up
>> periodically to check on things and decide if you wanted to stay frozen,
>> but that's likely not possible (at least yet.) Any security can be broken,
>> right?
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201122/926321cf/attachment.htm>

From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Nov 22 16:47:36 2020
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 08:47:36 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Study Finds Breakthrough Oxygen Therapy Reverses Aging
 Process
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy0055o7LJqF+E4Os=M7zQicCcKUXmwxRY2EkUP9RXoBOg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy0055o7LJqF+E4Os=M7zQicCcKUXmwxRY2EkUP9RXoBOg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRbKMadR6LMbAi4PZsmBcZjW=HOBG6xfXv0Fh5=Yteq2A@mail.gmail.com>

Let's wait for the confirmation studies.  Immortality requires patience.

On Sun, Nov 22, 2020 at 6:30 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I am quite astonished by what has been learned... I wonder to what extent
> this treatment could extend human lifespan, for those who do it regularly,
> starting at a fairly young age?
>
>
> https://www.studyfinds.org/breakthrough-oxygen-therapy-reverses-aging-process/
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201122/bfb8ecd8/attachment.htm>

From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Nov 22 16:50:38 2020
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 08:50:38 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Giving up autonomy for cryogenic suspension
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyGdmQcRD1qek=bjK-Q7eS=4=Qq2gtfwUvFwEg2Qq=DFSg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKrqSyExZin1xyEkvcV6s9dumX9K3gnZ6dtO4PkDxYup=76UFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTS0Lo3raWVbwnVDpN8gY-0o9VpM0ef704AYpxCp8=5ZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyGdmQcRD1qek=bjK-Q7eS=4=Qq2gtfwUvFwEg2Qq=DFSg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNT6GXKo_Nod-dqXrwNxg=UyQc_VOwWBqdxRQEwkuHMAhw@mail.gmail.com>

Not precisely, no.  But it is so unlikely that it is not worth considering,
that reviving someone would cost no more than a good meal or other such
small expense.

On Sun, Nov 22, 2020 at 8:48 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I don't think it's possible to assess the monetary price of waking up
> someone cryogenically in 100 years.
>
> On Sun, Nov 22, 2020 at 11:41 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> It seems certain that reviving us will be expensive, the kind of
>> "expensive" likely to be done to finally relieve Alcor or its descendant
>> organization from having to keep us frozen.
>>
>> While it is possible we may be forced to labor to pay off debts (despite
>> having prepaid our suspension), that kind of "expensive" can't be paid off
>> with simple slave labor - sex or otherwise.  Far more likely is that we
>> will wake up with few or no resources (whoever wakes us up thinking that
>> having done so is a sufficient investment in resources to resolve their
>> obligation to us), akin to the modern homeless, and need to labor to
>> survive.  Either way, it is likely that robots will have taken over most
>> menial labor jobs by then, leaving only types of labor that is at least
>> mildly intellectually stimulating.
>>
>> Granted, this is not guaranteed - but no situation where you must trust
>> someone else can be.  In these cases, the best that can be done is to
>> ensure that the outcome you desire is in the best interests of the one you
>> must trust, and that seems to be the case in this situation.
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 22, 2020 at 7:59 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> One of my personal nightmare scenarios is being frozen, having my body
>>> stolen in the hundreds-of-years interim, and waking up imprisoned as some
>>> kind of fucked up slave, possibly a sex slave.
>>>
>>> I've never heard anyone talk about this but in my opinion it's a huge
>>> issue.  You are trusting people with your body, not just to keep it alive,
>>> but to keep it safe from interlocutors.  How is it possible to guarantee
>>> safety over these time periods?  Who's to say Alcor doesn't go bankrupt, or
>>> suffer a burglary, in 70 years or something?
>>>
>>> Is there any philosophically rigorous solution to this?  The only thing
>>> I can really think of is some kind of system that would wake you up
>>> periodically to check on things and decide if you wanted to stay frozen,
>>> but that's likely not possible (at least yet.) Any security can be broken,
>>> right?
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201122/51b67f71/attachment.htm>

From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Nov 22 16:50:49 2020
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 16:50:49 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Giving up autonomy for cryogenic suspension
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyExZin1xyEkvcV6s9dumX9K3gnZ6dtO4PkDxYup=76UFw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKrqSyExZin1xyEkvcV6s9dumX9K3gnZ6dtO4PkDxYup=76UFw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhU3FnbQuPPmom4YOJBHXC+=AXV4i_ewcBn-m2tCEX1ag@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 22 Nov 2020 at 16:00, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> One of my personal nightmare scenarios is being frozen, having my body stolen in the hundreds-of-years interim, and waking up imprisoned as some kind of fucked up slave, possibly a sex slave.
>
> I've never heard anyone talk about this but in my opinion it's a huge issue.  You are trusting people with your body, not just to keep it alive, but to keep it safe from interlocutors.  How is it possible to guarantee safety over these time periods?  Who's to say Alcor doesn't go bankrupt, or suffer a burglary, in 70 years or something?
>
> Is there any philosophically rigorous solution to this?  The only thing I can really think of is some kind of system that would wake you up periodically to check on things and decide if you wanted to stay frozen, but that's likely not possible (at least yet.) Any security can be broken, right?
> _______________________________________________


Nobody can guarantee hundreds of years into the future. Governments
and laws might change, society will change, and the singularity might
arrive. But Alcor is aware of the problem and has plans in place to
try to survive.

If the future world is a really terrible dystopia, then they probably
won't bother reviving you and you just won't wake up.
In the future, if society is able to revive you, then they will have
nanotech and lots of other cool tech. i.e. a much better world than
the present. Robots for sex and companionship will be superior to
revived humans. You may be revived into a younger body or into a
virtual world (just call it heaven). Such a future world won't be
interested in experimenting / torturing a primitive human.

I try not to worry about problems that might never arise in the
future, especially problems that might arise after I officially die.
:)





BillK


From msd001 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 22 17:34:49 2020
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 12:34:49 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Giving up autonomy for cryogenic suspension
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhU3FnbQuPPmom4YOJBHXC+=AXV4i_ewcBn-m2tCEX1ag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKrqSyExZin1xyEkvcV6s9dumX9K3gnZ6dtO4PkDxYup=76UFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhU3FnbQuPPmom4YOJBHXC+=AXV4i_ewcBn-m2tCEX1ag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbKD5qZJmXDgd80MuAs6-yLD9CpyQe-2ApuX3GDiJ73ugA@mail.gmail.com>

I hope the host platform for reanimated mindfiles has an opt-out... but how
do we deal with the "turn it off and back on" scenario for consciousness?

Every reboot establishes the boundaries for what you can tolerate and what
you cannot. As long as the existential torment is below your "nope, I'm
out" threshold, you will endure.  How does this compare to your current
biological hosting platform?


I do expect that the "cost" proposed as a barrier to sadism is actually
negligible for far future potential sadists.  I imagine that "we'll make
great pets" was profoundly prophetic. Think tamagotchi, but instead of a
cheap plastic encased computing device for primitive code, it might be a
cheap virtual sandbox for running primitive mindfiles.  Whether it's a toy
for children's amusement or a bit of decor like a piece of artwork or
houseplant ... we probably shouldn't worry about it so much because there's
really no evidence that we're not already in a existential windowsill
flowerpot. meh.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201122/319a31c9/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Nov 22 17:56:06 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 09:56:06 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Giving up autonomy for cryogenic suspension
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyExZin1xyEkvcV6s9dumX9K3gnZ6dtO4PkDxYup=76UFw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKrqSyExZin1xyEkvcV6s9dumX9K3gnZ6dtO4PkDxYup=76UFw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004601d6c0f8$c0a96e40$41fc4ac0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

> On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat
Subject: [ExI] Giving up autonomy for cryogenic suspension

 

>?One of my personal nightmare scenarios is being frozen, having my body stolen in the hundreds-of-years interim, and waking up imprisoned as some kind of fucked up slave, possibly a sex slave?

 

I have had dreams like this, but I wouldn?t say they were nightmares.  I see what you mean however: it would depend on who owned your ass.

 

>?  Who's to say Alcor doesn't go bankrupt, or suffer a burglary?any security can be broken? Will

 

Ja, of course that is a risk with Alcor or any future cryonics company.  The problem I see is that the company depends on people signing up to cover their current expenses.  If the whole notion goes out of style and proles stop signing up, global warming is coming to the Alcor facility.

 

spike

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201122/89351b9e/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Nov 22 18:05:22 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 10:05:22 -0800
Subject: [ExI] flu shot
Message-ID: <005501d6c0fa$0c679400$2536bc00$@rainier66.com>

 

I am hearing that the vaccines developed by Moderna and Pfizer work on a
different principle from the traditional flu vaccines.  Something occurred
to me: we can see that places where a large percentage of the population get
flu shots every year are hit hard by covid.  Could it be that over time,
getting that flu shot is diminishing the abilities of our immune system to
react to covid correctly?

 

spike

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201122/986287ed/attachment-0001.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 22 18:23:57 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 12:23:57 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Eventbrite/Zoom addiction!
In-Reply-To: <005901d6c06c$4a512080$def36180$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.138.1605953408.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <28772e19-63a6-d4d1-458a-db69cfa02975@zaiboc.net>
 <005901d6c06c$4a512080$def36180$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYcLerT_wMiBHLD=Sec=HzAjNQctEX3p2gXkO5NbMxxhw@mail.gmail.com>

If it is free, they don?t need to figure out who they are and what they
want.  They want to party for free and it doesn?t matter who they are.



spike

It would be interesting to find out just what percentage of the population
you are describing - total slackers, willing to live a life of debauchery
permanently.  I think it's rather small.  For one thing, many would leave
so that they could make more money than their parents are giving them now.
For another, many parents would cut the kids off.


My main argument:  people need work.  Sitting around drinking and making
love will make them happy only so long before they have to get up and do
something - some will feel guilty at all the partying (which in itself is
not free).


bill w



On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 7:12 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Eventbrite/Zoom addiction!
>
>
>
> On 21/11/2020 10:10, bill w wrote:
>
> For many, college is a party place where you can figure out who you are
> and what you want.  And it should be FREE!  Billw
>
>
>
>
>
> If it is free, they don?t need to figure out who they are and what they
> want.  They want to party for free and it doesn?t matter who they are.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201122/45e9020d/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 22 18:54:28 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 02:54:28 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Giving up autonomy for cryogenic suspension
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyExZin1xyEkvcV6s9dumX9K3gnZ6dtO4PkDxYup=76UFw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKrqSyExZin1xyEkvcV6s9dumX9K3gnZ6dtO4PkDxYup=76UFw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy2-0H7ibpmac2=yxioyij4tt_js=7dTSQg6i9ZUG-FkaA@mail.gmail.com>

Will Steinberg wrote:
"One of my personal nightmare scenarios is being frozen, having my body
stolen in the hundreds-of-years interim, and waking up imprisoned as some
kind of fucked up slave, possibly a sex slave."

You should read this classic science fiction novel by A.A. Attanasio... Cue
evil laughter! Lol
<https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/5217055.A_A_Attanasio>

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/552286.Solis


On Sun, Nov 22, 2020 at 11:59 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> One of my personal nightmare scenarios is being frozen, having my body
> stolen in the hundreds-of-years interim, and waking up imprisoned as some
> kind of fucked up slave, possibly a sex slave.
>
> I've never heard anyone talk about this but in my opinion it's a huge
> issue.  You are trusting people with your body, not just to keep it alive,
> but to keep it safe from interlocutors.  How is it possible to guarantee
> safety over these time periods?  Who's to say Alcor doesn't go bankrupt, or
> suffer a burglary, in 70 years or something?
>
> Is there any philosophically rigorous solution to this?  The only thing I
> can really think of is some kind of system that would wake you up
> periodically to check on things and decide if you wanted to stay frozen,
> but that's likely not possible (at least yet.) Any security can be broken,
> right?
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201123/a976d371/attachment.htm>

From hibbard at wisc.edu  Sun Nov 22 19:39:10 2020
From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 13:39:10 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [ExI] Giving up autonomy for cryogenic suspension
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.2011221334350.2845@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>

> One of my personal nightmare scenarios is being frozen,
> having my body stolen in the hundreds-of-years interim,
> and waking up imprisoned as some kind of fucked up slave,
> possibly a sex slave.
>
> I've never heard anyone talk about this but in my opinion
> it's a huge issue.

I wrote a short fiction that is somewhat relevant:
https://www.ssec.wisc.edu/~billh/g/mcnrse.html

I am trying to stay alive as long as possible, out of
curiosity about the future among other reasons. However,
I have no intention to sign up for cryopreservation
because I do not want to risk a blind leap into the far
future.

I only had one acquaintance who signed up for Alcor. He
even moved to Phoenix to be close for quick processing.
One night he got drunk and went to confront a neighbor who
he thought was stealing from him, and took a pistol. The
neighbor called the cops. When they arrived, my jackass
acquaintance shot at them. They shot back and killed him.
There was a significant delay before the police released
the body to Alcor, so it is unlikely that he can ever be
revived. But if he could be revived, he might face charges
for attempted murder of a police officer. Imagine that he
is sentenced to life in prison - the ultimate irony. Could
be a Twlight Zone episode.

From danust2012 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 22 20:30:33 2020
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 12:30:33 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Study Finds Breakthrough Oxygen Therapy Reverses Aging
 Process
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy0055o7LJqF+E4Os=M7zQicCcKUXmwxRY2EkUP9RXoBOg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy0055o7LJqF+E4Os=M7zQicCcKUXmwxRY2EkUP9RXoBOg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6F7FA7F5-D156-4CC1-BEF9-F360B17C97DA@gmail.com>

On Nov 22, 2020, at 6:30 AM, John Grigg via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:?
> 
> I am quite astonished by what has been learned... I wonder to what extent this treatment could extend human lifespan, for those who do it regularly, starting at a fairly young age? 

Wonder if the mechanism here is something about aging (e.g., reduced lung fiction, reduced absorption membranes, ?tired? blood) reduces the body?s ability to obtain and distribute oxygen and HBOT partially overcomes this.

Regarding your comment: I?d be careful given that oxygen might also speed up metabolic processes and cause other problem. Maybe someone with a medical background could comment.

Regards,

Dan
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201122/77cb1009/attachment.htm>

From lostmyelectron+exi at protonmail.com  Sun Nov 22 20:30:09 2020
From: lostmyelectron+exi at protonmail.com (Gabe Waggoner)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 20:30:09 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Giving up autonomy for cryogenic suspension
Message-ID: <C6kjY8LdHm2_1eTC3X_vkudsFaR2iF0_XHw7sBtfGm06yG6f5DgAEELkTxKDQtJeA1Loa49JnO997_3R0ju3A0LIXumKJ4_N7MAB7XdPvtQ=@protonmail.com>

??????? Original Message ???????
> Message: 7
> Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 08:40:17 -0800
> From: Adrian Tymes atymes at gmail.com
> To: ExI chat list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Giving up autonomy for cryogenic suspension
> Message-ID:
> CALAdGNTS0Lo3raWVbwnVDpN8gY-0o9VpM0ef704AYpxCp8=5ZQ at mail.gmail.com
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> It seems certain that reviving us will be expensive, the kind of
> "expensive" likely to be done to finally relieve Alcor or its descendant
> organization from having to keep us frozen.
>
> While it is possible we may be forced to labor to pay off debts (despite
> having prepaid our suspension), that kind of "expensive" can't be paid off
> with simple slave labor - sex or otherwise. Far more likely is that we
> will wake up with few or no resources (whoever wakes us up thinking that
> having done so is a sufficient investment in resources to resolve their
> obligation to us), akin to the modern homeless, and need to labor to
> survive. Either way, it is likely that robots will have taken over most
> menial labor jobs by then, leaving only types of labor that is at least
> mildly intellectually stimulating.
>
> Granted, this is not guaranteed - but no situation where you must trust
> someone else can be. In these cases, the best that can be done is to
> ensure that the outcome you desire is in the best interests of the one you
> must trust, and that seems to be the case in this situation.
>
> On Sun, Nov 22, 2020 at 7:59 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> > One of my personal nightmare scenarios is being frozen, having my body
> > stolen in the hundreds-of-years interim, and waking up imprisoned as some
> > kind of fucked up slave, possibly a sex slave.
> > I've never heard anyone talk about this but in my opinion it's a huge
> > issue. You are trusting people with your body, not just to keep it alive,
> > but to keep it safe from interlocutors. How is it possible to guarantee
> > safety over these time periods? Who's to say Alcor doesn't go bankrupt, or
> > suffer a burglary, in 70 years or something?
> > Is there any philosophically rigorous solution to this? The only thing I
> > can really think of is some kind of system that would wake you up
> > periodically to check on things and decide if you wanted to stay frozen,
> > but that's likely not possible (at least yet.) Any security can be broken,
> > right?

---
I've often wondered about this. Two fictional scenarios come to mind:

First is Charles Sheffield's 1997 novel Tomorrow and Tomorrow. The protagonist's wife dies, and he arranges to have her frozen and then has himself frozen as well. Upon being revived, he's in indentured apprenticeship to repay the man who arranged for his recovery. After several further rounds of being frozen and brought back, his body deteriorates and his consciousness is uploaded. He witnesses several eras in a transhumanist future and later exists as innumerable copies of himself. I can't do the book justice here.

Second is "The Thaw," an episode of Star Trek: Voyager (season 2, episode 23). To wait out the aftermath of a solar flare, some residents of a colony world put themselves in cryostasis, but their minds are kept active and alert in an interactive mental landscape. Periodically, the preserved people see a readout of environmental conditions to determine whether it's safe for them to reemerge. Unfortunately, an emergent intelligence forms in their reality (manifested as a demented clown, played by Michael McKean, from their fears and anxieties) and holds them hostage in a twisted circus setting for years on end. Captain Janeway (one of my heroes) manages to outwit him.

I'm not qualified to predict the economics of the future. Despite being a pessimist, I have to believe that if recovery becomes possible, the cost will eventually come down enough to make it broadly feasible. As a tall, pale, terminally introverted redhead, I've long accepted that I'm not photogenic and would never find work as a sex slave (unless the gay men of the distant future are more accepting, ha). With current trends of the diminished emphasis on editing scientific text, my existing skills will probably be obsolete -- if English is even recognizable by that point. So here's hoping I can learn/download new skills (or at least be revived into an appealing enough body to make living as a sex slave viable).

Regardless, I live in hope that my enrollment in cryonics will work out. I'd probably settle for existing as a simulation in the Monolith, though I'd love to ascend ? la Stargate.

Best to all,
Gabe Waggoner


From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Nov 22 21:14:05 2020
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 21:14:05 +0000
Subject: [ExI] flu shot
In-Reply-To: <005501d6c0fa$0c679400$2536bc00$@rainier66.com>
References: <005501d6c0fa$0c679400$2536bc00$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armiUADJWmzvVrqA6u0U+2=0sOa2_fENqMJTXxgOVUG_2uA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 22 Nov 2020 at 18:08, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> I am hearing that the vaccines developed by Moderna and Pfizer work on a different principle from the traditional flu vaccines.  Something occurred to me: we can see that places where a large percentage of the population get flu shots every year are hit hard by covid.  Could it be that over time, getting that flu shot is diminishing the abilities of our immune system to react to covid correctly?
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


I think the answer to that question is No.  The flu jab is different
every winter because the flu virus keeps mutating and they try to
match the vaccine to the new flu variation. In fact health authorities
are trying to flu vaccinate more people this year to avoid filling up
hospitals with flu patients as well as Covid patients.


BillK


From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Nov 22 21:27:21 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 13:27:21 -0800
Subject: [ExI] flu shot
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armiUADJWmzvVrqA6u0U+2=0sOa2_fENqMJTXxgOVUG_2uA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <005501d6c0fa$0c679400$2536bc00$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armiUADJWmzvVrqA6u0U+2=0sOa2_fENqMJTXxgOVUG_2uA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009a01d6c116$43950810$cabf1830$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
BillK via extropy-chat

>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


>... I think the answer to that question is No.  The flu jab is different
every winter because the flu virus keeps mutating and they try to match the
vaccine to the new flu variation. In fact health authorities are trying to
flu vaccinate more people this year to avoid filling up hospitals with flu
patients as well as Covid patients... BillK


Hi BillK I haven't followed it that closely, but as I understand it, the new
covid vaccines work on a completely different principle than the flu
vaccines.  They don't really have that option with covid for that virus
kills patients as a result of the immune system overreacting.  This new
therapy by Moderna Pfizer somehow gets the immune system creating antibodies
without triggering the over-reaction.

spike


From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Nov 22 21:49:40 2020
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 21:49:40 +0000
Subject: [ExI] flu shot
In-Reply-To: <009a01d6c116$43950810$cabf1830$@rainier66.com>
References: <005501d6c0fa$0c679400$2536bc00$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armiUADJWmzvVrqA6u0U+2=0sOa2_fENqMJTXxgOVUG_2uA@mail.gmail.com>
 <009a01d6c116$43950810$cabf1830$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgVwiC=akp4nQwdrODUOO=Am-MfNO0ySbAztUptCqYnTA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 22 Nov 2020 at 21:29, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> Hi BillK I haven't followed it that closely, but as I understand it, the new
> covid vaccines work on a completely different principle than the flu
> vaccines.  They don't really have that option with covid for that virus
> kills patients as a result of the immune system overreacting.  This new
> therapy by Moderna Pfizer somehow gets the immune system creating antibodies
> without triggering the over-reaction.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


See:  <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA_vaccine>

Quote:
Up until November 2020, no mRNA vaccine, drug, or technology platform,
had ever been approved for use in humans, and before 2020, mRNA was
only considered a theoretical or experimental candidate for human use.
--------------------

The advantage is that they can be developed quicker than all the
traditional method vaccines.
They don't know what the longer term risks might be.
So maybe the new mRNA vaccines might be considered a bit risky?????


BillK

From bronto at pobox.com  Mon Nov 23 03:07:21 2020
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 19:07:21 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Giving up autonomy for cryogenic suspension
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyExZin1xyEkvcV6s9dumX9K3gnZ6dtO4PkDxYup=76UFw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKrqSyExZin1xyEkvcV6s9dumX9K3gnZ6dtO4PkDxYup=76UFw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2a70f9b0-480f-b2b0-8e49-af5ab5d5974b@pobox.com>

On 2020-11-22 07:57, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote:
> One of my personal nightmare scenarios is being frozen, having my body 
> stolen in the hundreds-of-years interim, and waking up imprisoned as 
> some kind of fucked up slave, possibly a sex slave.

Stories with related (but less sexy) scenarios include "Rammer" by Larry 
Niven (subsequently converted to the opening chapter of ?A World Out of 
Time?), ?The Quantum Thief? by Hannu Rajaniemi, and "Bit Players" by 
Greg Egan.
https://subterraneanpress.com/magazine/winter_2014/bit_players_by_greg_egan

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 23 05:18:07 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 13:18:07 +0800
Subject: [ExI] The Trillion-Transistor Chip That Just Left a Supercomputer
 in the Dust
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3VY-Vg6Z5J6XYgSbCRCTy-io_EBvAJndhgATh1dgQwfA@mail.gmail.com>

"The CS-1 was actually faster-than-real-time. As Cerebrus wrote in a blog
post
<https://www.cerebras.net/beyond-ai-for-wafer-scale-compute-setting-records-in-computational-fluid-dynamics/>,
?It can tell you what is going to happen in the future faster than the laws
of physics produce the same result.?

The researchers said the CS-1?s performance couldn?t be matched by any
number of CPUs and GPUs. And CEO and cofounder Andrew Feldman told *VentureBeat
*
<https://venturebeat.com/2020/11/17/cerebras-wafer-size-chip-is-10000-times-faster-than-a-gpu/>that
would be true ?no matter how large the supercomputer is.? At a point,
scaling a supercomputer like Joule no longer produces better results in
this kind of problem. That?s why Joule?s simulation speed peaked
<https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/computing/hardware/ai-system-beats-supercomputer-at-key-scientific-simulation?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+IeeeSpectrum+(IEEE+Spectrum)>
at 16,384 cores, a fraction of its total 86,400 cores.

A comparison of the two machines
<https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20201117005379/en/Cerebras-Systems-and-National-Energy-Technology-Laboratory-Set-New-Compute-Milestone>
drives the point home. Joule is the 81st fastest supercomputer
<https://www.top500.org/system/179599/> in the world, takes up dozens of
server racks, consumes up to 450 kilowatts of power, and required tens of
millions of dollars to build. The CS-1, by comparison, fits in a third of a
server rack, consumes 20 kilowatts of power, and sells for a few million
dollars.

While the task is niche (but useful) and the problem well-suited to the
CS-1, it?s still a pretty stunning result. So how?d they pull it off? It?s
all in the design."
The big little transistor chip that could...  :  )

https://singularityhub.com/2020/11/22/the-trillion-transistor-chip-that-just-left-a-supercomputer-in-the-dust/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201123/8f4195eb/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 23 05:40:51 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 13:40:51 +0800
Subject: [ExI] New York Post Scientists splice human genes into monkey
 brains to make them bigger, smarter
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy22q=MGcLH-u=m0GJ+G01uZvZiqXWymhjvfj1HTfhOTPw@mail.gmail.com>

 "Scientists made monkey brains double in size by splicing them with human
genes in a "Planet of the Apes"-style experiment..."

Where will this lead? And how much of an outrage will there be from the
West? I suppose in time genetically uplifted animals will be common...

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/scientists-splice-human-genes-monkey-172520293.html
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201123/29bc0464/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 23 05:44:31 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 13:44:31 +0800
Subject: [ExI] New York Post Scientists splice human genes into monkey
 brains to make them bigger, smarter
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy22q=MGcLH-u=m0GJ+G01uZvZiqXWymhjvfj1HTfhOTPw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy22q=MGcLH-u=m0GJ+G01uZvZiqXWymhjvfj1HTfhOTPw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3DQxinxigmu4rN5ryV81ytRWduc=AzSqkOZkpvfgFxcw@mail.gmail.com>

Correction: The New York Post does not have mad scientists splicing human
genes into money brains! But I sort of wish that they did...

John  ;  )

On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 1:40 PM John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> "Scientists made monkey brains double in size by splicing them with human
> genes in a "Planet of the Apes"-style experiment..."
>
> Where will this lead? And how much of an outrage will there be from the
> West? I suppose in time genetically uplifted animals will be common...
>
>
> https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/scientists-splice-human-genes-monkey-172520293.html
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201123/e96b2116/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 23 08:45:40 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 16:45:40 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Einstein's Demands for his wife
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3FtgGrgF=QpK00XBW38wkLndSgTa+v56n9nK8_vHBdww@mail.gmail.com>

 "By 1914, Albert Einstein <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein>'s
marriage to his wife of 11 years, Mileva Mari?
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mileva_Mari%C4%87>, was fast deteriorating.
Realising there was no hope for their relationship on a romantic level,
Einstein proposed that they remain together for the sake of their children,
but only if she agreed to the following list of conditions.

Mileva accepted them, but to no avail. A few months later, she left her
husband in Berlin and moved, with their sons, to Zurich. They eventually
divorced in 1919, having lived apart for five years."

          "CONDITIONS

   1. You will make sure:
      1. that my clothes and laundry are kept in good order;
      2. that I will receive my three meals regularly *in my room*;
      3. that my bedroom and study are kept neat, and especially that my
      desk is left for *my use only*.
   2. You will renounce all personal relations with me insofar as they are
   not completely necessary for social reasons. Specifically, You will forego:
      1. my sitting at home with you;
      2. my going out or travelling with you.
   3. You will obey the following points in your relations with me:
      1. you will not expect any intimacy from me, nor will you reproach me
      in any way;
      2. you will stop talking to me if I request it;
      3. you will leave my bedroom or study immediately without protest if
      I request it.
   4. You will undertake not to belittle me in front of our children,
   either through words or behavior."

                     I'm glad that she had the confidence to quickly move
on...


http://www.listsofnote.com/2012/04/einsteins-demands.html
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201123/4900acd6/attachment.htm>

From sparge at gmail.com  Mon Nov 23 13:46:19 2020
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 08:46:19 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Taiwan & COVID
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fnRb4s_xXym1_UTi4XGsc-L-SUfGHrpS47s4E7vWZ0hg@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.jwz.org/blog/2020/11/taiwan/

10,000 people attended Ultra Taiwan last week:
On November 14, Road to Ultra took place in Taiwan. No social distancing
was needed, or any precautions. It sounds extremely unlikely and unreal for
that to be the case in 2020, where most of the world is still battling
against the pandemic caused by the Covid-19 virus, but its true. How?
Taiwan has been Covid-free for over seven months now. With only seven
deaths and 550 cases in total between a population of 23 million people who
inhabit the island, the way that the government handled the virus is truly
admirable. Closing borders early, restricting public transport, evenly
distributing masks to everyone and having a strict pandemic protocol is
what made the island recover so quickly, and this meant that large-scale
events were deemed safe again.

thatalicewu:

A note from abroad: Realizing now that I've been 5 days out of US that many
folks back home don't realize how other countries might be living with the
'Rona. Here is what it was like to come to Taiwan. I think we could maybe
learn a coupla things...
Upon our plane touching down in TPE, we were immediately placed in two
lines: one for folks with a working intl cell phone, one for the rest of us
(to buy a very affordable local SIM card.) The government is then able to
track us while we are in the country

Once through immigration and baggage, we are required to take govt-approved
covid-safe cars to our quarantine hotels. (If you are a local, you can
self-isolate at home.) No leaving your room (or home) for 15 days. Not for
walks- nothing.

At the hotel: meals are left outside your door three times a day. There is
no contact with anyone. Every day, you get a call from the health
department asking if you have any symptoms. If so, they will immediately
rush you to the hospital for care.

As a sidebar, I have discovered that I am weirdly okay having all my daily
living decisions made for me. Have not yet gone crazy confined within four
walls. Perhaps I would have made a good housepet.

Never mind about domesticity, after 15 days, you are free to go. For 7 more
days, you are required to check your temperature every morning (they
actually gift you a thermometer) and someone calls every day to make sure
you're okay.

Because most local citizens have voluntarily signed up for contact tracing
(and all of us foreigners are required to opt-in) should a case break out,
anyone who was in significant contact would be notified, then required to
self-isolate for a number of days.

At any point, if you break quarantine - which they can tell by the
movements of your phone - you could be fined 10-30k. They are quite serious
on this point. Then again, they haven't had a case in 200 days. And
everyone has been living their lives freely since February.

A note on contact tracing: I'm no expert, and historically a proponent of
privacy, but if you have a credit card, or downloaded any number of apps,
it seems "they" already have your info. So in a gosh-darn pandemic: sign up
for contact tracing!

Again, not an expert. But again: EVERYONE IN TAIWAN HAS BEEN LIVING THEIR
LIVES FREELY SINCE FEBRUARY! I mean yes, people voluntarily wear masks in
public places, but otherwise, restaurants, subways, etc are packed. So....

I guess this could have been our lives too? Food for thought...

---

-Dave
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201123/774d266c/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 23 17:45:16 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 11:45:16 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Taiwan & COVID
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2fnRb4s_xXym1_UTi4XGsc-L-SUfGHrpS47s4E7vWZ0hg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM5aL2fnRb4s_xXym1_UTi4XGsc-L-SUfGHrpS47s4E7vWZ0hg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZS6jRLeaWRGzudBqPV4G7QfzrcnaoBCinf5P=cZWvKZQ@mail.gmail.com>

As we all know, Americans are known as individualists, and ASians as
collectivists.  Nothing shows this more than this post.  Tell Americans to
do something for the good of everyone, and some start telling us that you
can't tell them what to do.

Asians seem to be able to go along, conform for the good of the group.
Each frame of mind has its assets and liabilities.  Here the Asian frame
helps ensure that all are wearing masks and distancing and so on.  The
American one ensures that more spread of the virus will occur.

It seems that Americans just can't be happy with what they have.  Like
Baptists, they keep splitting and splitting over often tiny differences.
Freud called the 'narcissism of minor differences.'

bill w

On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 7:48 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> https://www.jwz.org/blog/2020/11/taiwan/
>
> 10,000 people attended Ultra Taiwan last week:
> On November 14, Road to Ultra took place in Taiwan. No social distancing
> was needed, or any precautions. It sounds extremely unlikely and unreal for
> that to be the case in 2020, where most of the world is still battling
> against the pandemic caused by the Covid-19 virus, but its true. How?
> Taiwan has been Covid-free for over seven months now. With only seven
> deaths and 550 cases in total between a population of 23 million people who
> inhabit the island, the way that the government handled the virus is truly
> admirable. Closing borders early, restricting public transport, evenly
> distributing masks to everyone and having a strict pandemic protocol is
> what made the island recover so quickly, and this meant that large-scale
> events were deemed safe again.
>
> thatalicewu:
>
> A note from abroad: Realizing now that I've been 5 days out of US that
> many folks back home don't realize how other countries might be living with
> the 'Rona. Here is what it was like to come to Taiwan. I think we could
> maybe learn a coupla things...
> Upon our plane touching down in TPE, we were immediately placed in two
> lines: one for folks with a working intl cell phone, one for the rest of us
> (to buy a very affordable local SIM card.) The government is then able to
> track us while we are in the country
>
> Once through immigration and baggage, we are required to take
> govt-approved covid-safe cars to our quarantine hotels. (If you are a
> local, you can self-isolate at home.) No leaving your room (or home) for 15
> days. Not for walks- nothing.
>
> At the hotel: meals are left outside your door three times a day. There is
> no contact with anyone. Every day, you get a call from the health
> department asking if you have any symptoms. If so, they will immediately
> rush you to the hospital for care.
>
> As a sidebar, I have discovered that I am weirdly okay having all my daily
> living decisions made for me. Have not yet gone crazy confined within four
> walls. Perhaps I would have made a good housepet.
>
> Never mind about domesticity, after 15 days, you are free to go. For 7
> more days, you are required to check your temperature every morning (they
> actually gift you a thermometer) and someone calls every day to make sure
> you're okay.
>
> Because most local citizens have voluntarily signed up for contact tracing
> (and all of us foreigners are required to opt-in) should a case break out,
> anyone who was in significant contact would be notified, then required to
> self-isolate for a number of days.
>
> At any point, if you break quarantine - which they can tell by the
> movements of your phone - you could be fined 10-30k. They are quite serious
> on this point. Then again, they haven't had a case in 200 days. And
> everyone has been living their lives freely since February.
>
> A note on contact tracing: I'm no expert, and historically a proponent of
> privacy, but if you have a credit card, or downloaded any number of apps,
> it seems "they" already have your info. So in a gosh-darn pandemic: sign up
> for contact tracing!
>
> Again, not an expert. But again: EVERYONE IN TAIWAN HAS BEEN LIVING THEIR
> LIVES FREELY SINCE FEBRUARY! I mean yes, people voluntarily wear masks in
> public places, but otherwise, restaurants, subways, etc are packed. So....
>
> I guess this could have been our lives too? Food for thought...
>
> ---
>
> -Dave
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201123/f35b0085/attachment-0001.htm>

From avant at sollegro.com  Tue Nov 24 01:45:43 2020
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 17:45:43 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Study Finds Breakthrough Oxygen Therapy Reverses Aging
 Process
Message-ID: <20201123174543.Horde.WbSUgawobsbpL8FjhLroxAk@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>


Quoting John Grigg:

> I am quite astonished by what has been learned... I wonder to what extent
> this treatment could extend human lifespan, for those who do it regularly,
> starting at a fairly young age?
>
> https://www.studyfinds.org/breakthrough-oxygen-therapy-reverses-aging-process/

I would be very skeptical about this for a bunch of reasons.

Firstly, the journal that this research is published in, "Ageing" does  
not even rank in the top 50 journals dedicated to geriatrics or  
gerontology let alone any top tier generalized journals such as  
Science, Nature, Cell, or Lancet.

Secondly, if you read the study, they only use a single  
less-than-ideal method called Fluorescent In Situ Hybridization (FISH)  
to measure the telomere length of a limited population of cells i.e.  
white blood cells which are a high turnover body tissue. Also, they  
lack controls or an independent verification method. I would have  
liked to have seen a qt-PCR or some other more reliable assay in  
addition to their Flow FISH data. Which is probably what the referee  
of a higher-tiered journal would have told them which is why they are  
not in higher tiered journal.

Here is the article if you are interested:

https://www.aging-us.com/article/202188/text

Thirdly, oxygen has long been a known culprit in ageing. Oxidation of  
biomolecules to produce reactive oxygen species or free radicals has  
been implicated in pretty much all of the diseases associated with  
aging from heart disease and cancer to dementia and diabetes.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5927356/

The study's conclusion that hyperbaric oxygen chambers makes a  
person's white blood cells younger might be true but it could be for  
the same reason that COVID-19 seems to be making the world's  
population younger. And that is by killing the old.

Stuart LaForge




From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 24 05:28:39 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 00:28:39 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Taiwan & COVID
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZS6jRLeaWRGzudBqPV4G7QfzrcnaoBCinf5P=cZWvKZQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM5aL2fnRb4s_xXym1_UTi4XGsc-L-SUfGHrpS47s4E7vWZ0hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZS6jRLeaWRGzudBqPV4G7QfzrcnaoBCinf5P=cZWvKZQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy05O7OVX7524BNB4SrkOfE6UQ=Lo5SKmddteXFmNbr7qA@mail.gmail.com>

Bill w., you bring up a good point about the differences between Americans
and Asians. But l do recall Hitler saying Americans were just a nation of
cowboys. And that was white versus white. Now beyond Covid, America has a
huge challenge with the Frankenstein Monster we helped create, a powerful
China, run by the CCP.

On Mon, Nov 23, 2020, 12:48 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> As we all know, Americans are known as individualists, and ASians as
> collectivists.  Nothing shows this more than this post.  Tell Americans to
> do something for the good of everyone, and some start telling us that you
> can't tell them what to do.
>
> Asians seem to be able to go along, conform for the good of the group.
> Each frame of mind has its assets and liabilities.  Here the Asian frame
> helps ensure that all are wearing masks and distancing and so on.  The
> American one ensures that more spread of the virus will occur.
>
> It seems that Americans just can't be happy with what they have.  Like
> Baptists, they keep splitting and splitting over often tiny differences.
> Freud called the 'narcissism of minor differences.'
>
> bill w
>
> On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 7:48 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> https://www.jwz.org/blog/2020/11/taiwan/
>>
>> 10,000 people attended Ultra Taiwan last week:
>> On November 14, Road to Ultra took place in Taiwan. No social distancing
>> was needed, or any precautions. It sounds extremely unlikely and unreal for
>> that to be the case in 2020, where most of the world is still battling
>> against the pandemic caused by the Covid-19 virus, but its true. How?
>> Taiwan has been Covid-free for over seven months now. With only seven
>> deaths and 550 cases in total between a population of 23 million people who
>> inhabit the island, the way that the government handled the virus is truly
>> admirable. Closing borders early, restricting public transport, evenly
>> distributing masks to everyone and having a strict pandemic protocol is
>> what made the island recover so quickly, and this meant that large-scale
>> events were deemed safe again.
>>
>> thatalicewu:
>>
>> A note from abroad: Realizing now that I've been 5 days out of US that
>> many folks back home don't realize how other countries might be living with
>> the 'Rona. Here is what it was like to come to Taiwan. I think we could
>> maybe learn a coupla things...
>> Upon our plane touching down in TPE, we were immediately placed in two
>> lines: one for folks with a working intl cell phone, one for the rest of us
>> (to buy a very affordable local SIM card.) The government is then able to
>> track us while we are in the country
>>
>> Once through immigration and baggage, we are required to take
>> govt-approved covid-safe cars to our quarantine hotels. (If you are a
>> local, you can self-isolate at home.) No leaving your room (or home) for 15
>> days. Not for walks- nothing.
>>
>> At the hotel: meals are left outside your door three times a day. There
>> is no contact with anyone. Every day, you get a call from the health
>> department asking if you have any symptoms. If so, they will immediately
>> rush you to the hospital for care.
>>
>> As a sidebar, I have discovered that I am weirdly okay having all my
>> daily living decisions made for me. Have not yet gone crazy confined within
>> four walls. Perhaps I would have made a good housepet.
>>
>> Never mind about domesticity, after 15 days, you are free to go. For 7
>> more days, you are required to check your temperature every morning (they
>> actually gift you a thermometer) and someone calls every day to make sure
>> you're okay.
>>
>> Because most local citizens have voluntarily signed up for contact
>> tracing (and all of us foreigners are required to opt-in) should a case
>> break out, anyone who was in significant contact would be notified, then
>> required to self-isolate for a number of days.
>>
>> At any point, if you break quarantine - which they can tell by the
>> movements of your phone - you could be fined 10-30k. They are quite serious
>> on this point. Then again, they haven't had a case in 200 days. And
>> everyone has been living their lives freely since February.
>>
>> A note on contact tracing: I'm no expert, and historically a proponent of
>> privacy, but if you have a credit card, or downloaded any number of apps,
>> it seems "they" already have your info. So in a gosh-darn pandemic: sign up
>> for contact tracing!
>>
>> Again, not an expert. But again: EVERYONE IN TAIWAN HAS BEEN LIVING THEIR
>> LIVES FREELY SINCE FEBRUARY! I mean yes, people voluntarily wear masks in
>> public places, but otherwise, restaurants, subways, etc are packed. So....
>>
>> I guess this could have been our lives too? Food for thought...
>>
>> ---
>>
>> -Dave
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201124/4a2214bd/attachment.htm>

From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Nov 24 13:55:20 2020
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 13:55:20 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Google AI will help you write poetry
Message-ID: <CAL_armi+7JsV3Rr41K5FEn3xd8GY8B0VOOG_Y8NFQL8aUhzWkg@mail.gmail.com>

You choose the format and poet style and provide the first line. The
AI will offer suggestions on every following line, which you can
accept or write your own line.

<https://sites.research.google/versebyverse/>

BillK

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 24 14:18:53 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 09:18:53 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Google AI will help you write poetry
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armi+7JsV3Rr41K5FEn3xd8GY8B0VOOG_Y8NFQL8aUhzWkg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi+7JsV3Rr41K5FEn3xd8GY8B0VOOG_Y8NFQL8aUhzWkg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy27iVgbeVqGccdA07GA4KK4dCT9bOeV+KQjW0kOJpjFsg@mail.gmail.com>

I wonder when an AI will first win a Hugo Award? 2060? Hmmm......

John

On Tue, Nov 24, 2020, 8:58 AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> You choose the format and poet style and provide the first line. The
> AI will offer suggestions on every following line, which you can
> accept or write your own line.
>
> <https://sites.research.google/versebyverse/>
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201124/2b44ffad/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 24 15:41:27 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 23:41:27 +0800
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?b?Sm9obiBMZW5ub27igJlzIFNvbjogQml0Y29pbiDigJhUcmFu?=
	=?utf-8?q?scends_the_Physical_World=E2=80=99?=
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1dWRS8iDg2ssPa-iKm1q+a6tr1q9W9fXVnZJM8gSDk9A@mail.gmail.com>

"Sean Lennon suggested Bitcoin gives people the chance to transcend
politics and world events like never before.

Judging by Bitcoin?s price, Lennon is not the only one who is bullish on
Bitcoin these days. The cryptocurrency has increased to over $18,500, a 43%
increase from its price of $12,965 just one month ago."

https://decrypt.co/49221/john-lennons-son-bitcoin-transcends-the-physical-world
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201124/7fdbfcec/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Nov 24 15:55:41 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 07:55:41 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?b?Sm9obiBMZW5ub27igJlzIFNvbjogQml0Y29pbiDigJhUcmFu?=
	=?utf-8?q?scends_the_Physical_World=E2=80=99?=
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy1dWRS8iDg2ssPa-iKm1q+a6tr1q9W9fXVnZJM8gSDk9A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy1dWRS8iDg2ssPa-iKm1q+a6tr1q9W9fXVnZJM8gSDk9A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007401d6c27a$43571ef0$ca055cd0$@rainier66.com>

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of John Grigg via extropy-chat
Subject: [ExI] John Lennon?s Son: Bitcoin ?Transcends the Physical World?

 

"Sean Lennon suggested Bitcoin gives people the chance to transcend politics and world events like never before. 

 

>?Judging by Bitcoin?s price, Lennon is not the only one who is bullish on Bitcoin these days. The cryptocurrency has increased to over $18,500, a 43% increase from its price of $12,965 just one month ago."  

 

https://decrypt.co/49221/john-lennons-son-bitcoin-transcends-the-physical-world 

 

 

I can see why it would be popular in the US: it enables selling of signed blank ballots without risk of getting caught.

 

spike

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201124/1690a4a1/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 24 16:14:34 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 00:14:34 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Hubble captures a black hole's 'shadow beams,
 ' yawning across space
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1Mjgu4p_cQnCRJ-7CinnjE9UkADy5b2dbvW8uZKPQBHw@mail.gmail.com>

"In images from the Hubble Space Telescope, scientists have spotted an
entirely new phenomenon. Reaching tens of thousands of light-years into the
void of space, vast shadows stretch from the centre of the galaxy IC 5063,
as though something is blocking the bright light from therein.

You've probably seen something very like it before ? bright beams from the
Sun when it's just below the horizon and clouds or mountains only partially
block its light, known as crepuscular rays <http://optics.kulgun.net/Rays/>.
According to astronomers, the shadows from IC 5063 could be something very
similar. They're just a whole lot bigger ? at least 36,000 light-years in
each direction."
https://www.livescience.com/black-hole-shadow-beams-captured-hubble.html
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201125/74d5104c/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 24 16:56:33 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 00:56:33 +0800
Subject: [ExI] China launches Chang'e 5 mission to bring back material from
 Moon |
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy2UsmKM_3G8gb__LGX90Todryva2TCn142PMtNxx-1dvw@mail.gmail.com>

 "China has launched an ambitious mission to bring back rocks and debris
from the moon's surface. It's the country's boldest lunar mission yet, and
as astrophysicist Clare Kanyon explains to The World, it could pave the way
for more adventurous destinations."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0FGIxwE7PU
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201125/628701ab/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 24 17:27:51 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 01:27:51 +0800
Subject: [ExI] A new model projects Covid-19 cases in the US will nearly
 double over the next two months
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy24zvcNqczw=b6qDPXFXVfY+_VpSU75JUkusFgyiX78Hg@mail.gmail.com>

 "The US could nearly double its current numbers -- about 12.4 million
reported infections -- by January 20, according to the Washington
University in St. Louis forecasting model.

The prediction comes as Covid-19 cases and hospitalizations nationwide are
exploding, with more than 3.1 million infections reported in the US since
the start of November -- the most reported in a single month ever.

And as numbers continue to rise, hundreds more Americans will lose their
lives to the virus each day. More than 10,000 people have died in just the
past week -- many of them alone and without the chance to say goodbye to
their loved ones.

More than 257,600 people have died in the US since the pandemic's start --
more than any other country by far. And another 140,000 could die over the
next two months, according to projections
<https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america?view=social-distancing&tab=trend>from
the University of Washington's Institute for Health Metrics and
Evaluation."

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/24/health/us-coronavirus-tuesday/index.html
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201125/986c69ff/attachment.htm>

From sparge at gmail.com  Tue Nov 24 18:54:53 2020
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 13:54:53 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?b?Sm9obiBMZW5ub27igJlzIFNvbjogQml0Y29pbiDigJhUcmFu?=
	=?utf-8?q?scends_the_Physical_World=E2=80=99?=
In-Reply-To: <007401d6c27a$43571ef0$ca055cd0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAGSKFy1dWRS8iDg2ssPa-iKm1q+a6tr1q9W9fXVnZJM8gSDk9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <007401d6c27a$43571ef0$ca055cd0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2c=Ch2GnZi6DmmH2omFbCt4QaGY1SSv5DqHVzFRZZNkgg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 10:57 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> I can see why it would be popular in the US: it enables selling of signed
> blank ballots without risk of getting caught.
>

I don't know if this is humor, political nonsense, or just wrong, but it's
not true:

https://bitcoin.org/en/protect-your-privacy

*"Bitcoin works with an unprecedented level of transparency that most
people are not used to dealing with. All Bitcoin transactions are public,
traceable, and permanently stored in the Bitcoin network."*

-Dave
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201124/481eb4c9/attachment.htm>

From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Nov 24 19:43:13 2020
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 19:43:13 +0000
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?b?Sm9obiBMZW5ub27igJlzIFNvbjogQml0Y29pbiDigJhUcmFu?=
	=?utf-8?q?scends_the_Physical_World=E2=80=99?=
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2c=Ch2GnZi6DmmH2omFbCt4QaGY1SSv5DqHVzFRZZNkgg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy1dWRS8iDg2ssPa-iKm1q+a6tr1q9W9fXVnZJM8gSDk9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <007401d6c27a$43571ef0$ca055cd0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAM5aL2c=Ch2GnZi6DmmH2omFbCt4QaGY1SSv5DqHVzFRZZNkgg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgtp7N=FcGdjUWa91oXo4tj1GnDqryr-dhXAxt_T2nFGQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 at 18:58, Dave Sill via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 10:57 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> I can see why it would be popular in the US: it enables selling of signed blank ballots without risk of getting caught.
>
>
> I don't know if this is humor, political nonsense, or just wrong, but it's not true:
> https://bitcoin.org/en/protect-your-privacy
>
> "Bitcoin works with an unprecedented level of transparency that most people are not used to dealing with. All Bitcoin transactions are public, traceable, and permanently stored in the Bitcoin network."
>
> -Dave
> _______________________________________________


Ooooh, that quote is a bit misleading about Bitcoin privacy.   :)

If you read the whole article, Bitcoin transactions are public, but
pseudo-anonymous.
i.e. no real names are attached to transactions. For casual users it
takes quite a bit of techie research to analyse the chain and
eventually work out who did it.
The article  mentions that research into increasing Bitcoin privacy is
ongoing and suggests techniques like using an online pseudonym (e.g.
Satoshi Nakomoto) and Tor to hide IP addresses and many other options
to increase privacy.

Also see: <https://99bitcoins.com/buy-bitcoin/anonymously-without-id/>
If a user wants privacy and knows what they are doing it will be
impossible to tie Bitcoins to a real person.



BillK

From sparge at gmail.com  Tue Nov 24 20:03:33 2020
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 15:03:33 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?b?Sm9obiBMZW5ub27igJlzIFNvbjogQml0Y29pbiDigJhUcmFu?=
	=?utf-8?q?scends_the_Physical_World=E2=80=99?=
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgtp7N=FcGdjUWa91oXo4tj1GnDqryr-dhXAxt_T2nFGQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy1dWRS8iDg2ssPa-iKm1q+a6tr1q9W9fXVnZJM8gSDk9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <007401d6c27a$43571ef0$ca055cd0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAM5aL2c=Ch2GnZi6DmmH2omFbCt4QaGY1SSv5DqHVzFRZZNkgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgtp7N=FcGdjUWa91oXo4tj1GnDqryr-dhXAxt_T2nFGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fLHO2EXR4rEfaVOaRGi10Ksz3LxUBPqE_1bdJ+SVDA_Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 2:46 PM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 at 18:58, Dave Sill via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 10:57 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >> I can see why it would be popular in the US: it enables selling of
> signed blank ballots without risk of getting caught.
> >
> > I don't know if this is humor, political nonsense, or just wrong, but
> it's not true:
> > https://bitcoin.org/en/protect-your-privacy
> >
> > "Bitcoin works with an unprecedented level of transparency that most
> people are not used to dealing with. All Bitcoin transactions are public,
> traceable, and permanently stored in the Bitcoin network."
>
> Ooooh, that quote is a bit misleading about Bitcoin privacy.   :)
>

Well, it's one sentence from an article. The point it, and I, am trying to
make is that if you naively assume bitcoin is untraceable, you're probably
going to be traceable.

-Dave
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201124/cd752801/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 25 07:45:08 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 15:45:08 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Elon Musk leapfrogs over Bill Gates to become second-richest
 man in the world
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3b5pxNgt73peXVpF27ZO04x8BQ-hYR_18C1TSFKULgHw@mail.gmail.com>

"Tesla CEO Elon Musk beat out Microsoft co-founder Bill Gates to become the
second-richest person in the world on Tuesday.

Shares in the electric car maker surged after the Trump administration said
Monday it had started the transition process to President-elect Joe Biden ? a
clean energy advocate.
<https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/what-biden-means-auto-industry-dirty-jobs-clean-air-n1247727>

Musk?s net worth has grown by an estimated $100 billion since the start of
the year, propelling him ahead of Gates for a few hours before settling
into a tie, with both fortunes listed at $128 billion, according to
the Bloomberg
Billionaires Index. <https://www.bloomberg.com/billionaires/>

Musk's massive personal fortune comes mostly from owning 20 percent of
Tesla and 54 percent of his space transportation company SpaceX.

Earlier this year, the 49-year-old tech pioneer announced
<https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1256239554148724737> that he was going
to sell almost all of his ?physical possessions? and ?own no house,? saying
he no longer wanted to be attacked for being a billionaire."
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/elon-musk-leapfrogs-over-bill-gates-become-second-richest-man-n1248791
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201125/5467ac6b/attachment.htm>

From sparge at gmail.com  Wed Nov 25 18:30:46 2020
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 13:30:46 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Intelligence test
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2dS4xdEMXSo2jV3BkUdLVdKZ35StGSTYBrwvwYE173gDA@mail.gmail.com>

Cute story about the two-cyclists-and-a-fly problem. If you don't know the
problem, it's here:

http://www.geom.uiuc.edu/~lori/mathed/problems/mg000.html

Can you solve it?

Max Born posed the problem to John von Neumann. Here's a video of Eugene
Wigner telling the story:

https://www.futilitycloset.com/2020/11/17/the-hard-way-4/

So, who here solved it? Did you do it the easy way or the hard way?

Easy way, for me.

-Dave
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201125/193bfa8a/attachment.htm>

From giulio at gmail.com  Wed Nov 25 19:08:05 2020
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 20:08:05 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Intelligence test
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2dS4xdEMXSo2jV3BkUdLVdKZ35StGSTYBrwvwYE173gDA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM5aL2dS4xdEMXSo2jV3BkUdLVdKZ35StGSTYBrwvwYE173gDA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfykXfwt1dj=i0xEdD=yLQ4FK56tZeRWNViNr_KvyYsiQ@mail.gmail.com>

15 miles easy way.

On 2020. Nov 25., Wed at 19:33, Dave Sill via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Cute story about the two-cyclists-and-a-fly problem. If you don't know the
> problem, it's here:
>
> http://www.geom.uiuc.edu/~lori/mathed/problems/mg000.html
>
> Can you solve it?
>
> Max Born posed the problem to John von Neumann. Here's a video of Eugene
> Wigner telling the story:
>
> https://www.futilitycloset.com/2020/11/17/the-hard-way-4/
>
> So, who here solved it? Did you do it the easy way or the hard way?
>
> Easy way, for me.
>
> -Dave
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201125/bafe1c09/attachment.htm>

From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Nov 25 19:17:32 2020
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 11:17:32 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Intelligence test
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyfykXfwt1dj=i0xEdD=yLQ4FK56tZeRWNViNr_KvyYsiQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM5aL2dS4xdEMXSo2jV3BkUdLVdKZ35StGSTYBrwvwYE173gDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyfykXfwt1dj=i0xEdD=yLQ4FK56tZeRWNViNr_KvyYsiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQ6h-OZqyfnTJCc85QmEg3mJ+nma3EvJhfnB3oEfuP1hA@mail.gmail.com>

Ditto.

(Rendezvous takes 1 hour, and the fly flies 15 miles per hour, so...)

On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 11:10 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> 15 miles easy way.
>
> On 2020. Nov 25., Wed at 19:33, Dave Sill via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Cute story about the two-cyclists-and-a-fly problem. If you don't know
>> the problem, it's here:
>>
>> http://www.geom.uiuc.edu/~lori/mathed/problems/mg000.html
>>
>> Can you solve it?
>>
>> Max Born posed the problem to John von Neumann. Here's a video of Eugene
>> Wigner telling the story:
>>
>> https://www.futilitycloset.com/2020/11/17/the-hard-way-4/
>>
>> So, who here solved it? Did you do it the easy way or the hard way?
>>
>> Easy way, for me.
>>
>> -Dave
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201125/5c2e3a1d/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 25 19:28:18 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 13:28:18 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Intelligence test
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2dS4xdEMXSo2jV3BkUdLVdKZ35StGSTYBrwvwYE173gDA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM5aL2dS4xdEMXSo2jV3BkUdLVdKZ35StGSTYBrwvwYE173gDA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZ67XoYmKOVNbeKP+=1JZAUo=ws7+6v+nswbMZ_9+nCrA@mail.gmail.com>

I love problems where the question contains all sorts of irrelevant
information and the answer is easy without any calculation necessary and
the quick answer is always wrong:

"A pool contains a plant that doubles in size each day.  How many days does
it take for the plant to fill the pool?"  (If you take more than three
seconds on this one you flunk)

Or - three men take three days to dig a hole - how many days does it take
them to dig half a hole? (5 seconds max)  scroll for answers:





29 days - many just blurt out 15 - none of you, certainly
You can't dig half a hole (setup did not say a hole half the size of the
first one - can't assume that)

bill w



On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 12:33 PM Dave Sill via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Cute story about the two-cyclists-and-a-fly problem. If you don't know the
> problem, it's here:
>
> http://www.geom.uiuc.edu/~lori/mathed/problems/mg000.html
>
> Can you solve it?
>
> Max Born posed the problem to John von Neumann. Here's a video of Eugene
> Wigner telling the story:
>
> https://www.futilitycloset.com/2020/11/17/the-hard-way-4/
>
> So, who here solved it? Did you do it the easy way or the hard way?
>
> Easy way, for me.
>
> -Dave
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201125/38bc760a/attachment-0001.htm>

From ben at zaiboc.net  Wed Nov 25 20:19:21 2020
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 20:19:21 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Intelligence test
In-Reply-To: <mailman.153.1606332524.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.153.1606332524.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <0a2e8025-dbd5-3970-1794-cbc39456fc4f@zaiboc.net>

On 25/11/2020 19:28, bill w wrote:
>
> "A pool contains?a plant that doubles in size each day.? How many days 
> does it take for the plant to fill the pool?"? (If you take more than 
> three seconds on this one you flunk)
>
> 29 days

You're going to have to explain that one, it makes no sense to me.


-- 
Ben Zaiboc

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201125/c8d229a4/attachment.htm>

From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Nov 25 20:34:12 2020
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 12:34:12 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Intelligence test
In-Reply-To: <0a2e8025-dbd5-3970-1794-cbc39456fc4f@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.153.1606332524.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <0a2e8025-dbd5-3970-1794-cbc39456fc4f@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSUW2kNG-jeuvYmU+EzXC5darp9xDqsr9dZDX2rMsxM0w@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 12:21 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On 25/11/2020 19:28, bill w wrote:
>
> "A pool contains a plant that doubles in size each day.  How many days
> does it take for the plant to fill the pool?"  (If you take more than three
> seconds on this one you flunk)
>
> 29 days
>
>
> You're going to have to explain that one, it makes no sense to me.
>

I do believe the problem statement lacks sufficient information on starting
conditions.

If the plant filled half the pool, the pool would still "contain" it - but
the plant would only need 1 day to fill it.

If the plant completely filled the pool, the pool would still "contain" it
- but the plant would need 0 days to fill it (since it starts off filling
it).
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201125/b12243c6/attachment.htm>

From bronto at pobox.com  Wed Nov 25 21:47:48 2020
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 13:47:48 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Intelligence test
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZ67XoYmKOVNbeKP+=1JZAUo=ws7+6v+nswbMZ_9+nCrA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM5aL2dS4xdEMXSo2jV3BkUdLVdKZ35StGSTYBrwvwYE173gDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ67XoYmKOVNbeKP+=1JZAUo=ws7+6v+nswbMZ_9+nCrA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1cd341cf-d192-30bd-dc76-148d965d783b@pobox.com>

On 2020-11-25 11:28, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:
> "A pool contains?a plant that doubles in size each day.? How many days 
> does it take for the plant to fill the pool?"? (If you take more than 
> three seconds on this one you flunk)
	[...]
> 29 days - many just blurt out 15 - none of you, certainly

I'm guessing that the original question was something like this:
"If you put a single water-lily in the pool, it will fill the pool in 30 
days.  If you put two water-lilies in the pool, how soon will the pool 
be filled?"

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org



From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Nov 25 22:54:20 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 14:54:20 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Intelligence test
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZ67XoYmKOVNbeKP+=1JZAUo=ws7+6v+nswbMZ_9+nCrA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM5aL2dS4xdEMXSo2jV3BkUdLVdKZ35StGSTYBrwvwYE173gDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ67XoYmKOVNbeKP+=1JZAUo=ws7+6v+nswbMZ_9+nCrA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00b401d6c37d$ea05df30$be119d90$@rainier66.com>

 

 

> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] Intelligence test

 

>?"A pool contains a plant that doubles in size each day.  How many days does it take for the plant to fill the pool?"  (If you take more than three seconds on this one you flunk)

 

>?Or - three men take three days to dig a hole - how many days does it take them to dig half a hole? (5 seconds max)  scroll for answers:

 

 

 

 

 

>?29 days - many just blurt out 15 - none of you, certainly?

 

Professor, as stated, the question is indeterminant.

 

 

 

You can't dig half a hole (setup did not say a hole half the size of the first one - can't assume that)

 

bill w

 

Well let?s think that thru a bit.  There is a reasonable protocol which would suggest the term hole means something that goes thru, like the hole needed to mount a door knob.  If it is a 10 cm in thickness, one might suppose a hole 5 cm in depth would qualify has half a hole.

 

spike

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201125/ab217b3f/attachment.htm>

From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Nov 25 23:24:27 2020
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 23:24:27 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Intelligence test
In-Reply-To: <00b401d6c37d$ea05df30$be119d90$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAM5aL2dS4xdEMXSo2jV3BkUdLVdKZ35StGSTYBrwvwYE173gDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ67XoYmKOVNbeKP+=1JZAUo=ws7+6v+nswbMZ_9+nCrA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b401d6c37d$ea05df30$be119d90$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armg1c6Oii7+LAVmXH743Go3jD2J9DHHEbvJh87DxSZeJww@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 at 22:57, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
<snip>
> Professor, as stated, the question is indeterminant.
> spike
> _______________________________________________


Reminds me of the old riddle...........

"Do you know how to keep an idiot in suspense?"
"No? - Well, I'll tell you the answer tomorrow".      :)


BillK

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 25 23:46:02 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 17:46:02 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Intelligence test
In-Reply-To: <00b401d6c37d$ea05df30$be119d90$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAM5aL2dS4xdEMXSo2jV3BkUdLVdKZ35StGSTYBrwvwYE173gDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ67XoYmKOVNbeKP+=1JZAUo=ws7+6v+nswbMZ_9+nCrA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b401d6c37d$ea05df30$be119d90$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYuTB9q-9wHGsux3cFxVV6mg2vAzKk4MCgHRd7+kN-__w@mail.gmail.com>

*There is a reasonable protocol which would suggest the term hole means
something that goes thru, like the hole needed to mount a door knob.  If it
is a 10 cm in thickness, one might suppose a hole 5 cm in depth would
qualify has half a hole.*



*spike*
Ah, Spike, you've done it again.  (strictly speaking, though, no, as the
word 'dig' prevents your solution - now if you were digging to China.....)
 bill w


On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 4:56 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Intelligence test
>
>
>
> >?"A pool contains a plant that doubles in size each day.  How many days
> does it take for the plant to fill the pool?"  (If you take more than three
> seconds on this one you flunk)
>
>
>
> >?Or - three men take three days to dig a hole - how many days does it
> take them to dig half a hole? (5 seconds max)  scroll for answers:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *>?29 days - many just blurt out 15 - none of you, certainly?*
>
>
>
> *Professor, as stated, the question is indeterminant.*
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *You can't dig half a hole (setup did not say a hole half the size of the
> first one - can't assume that)*
>
>
>
> *bill w*
>
>
>
> *Well let?s think that thru a bit.  There is a reasonable protocol which
> would suggest the term hole means something that goes thru, like the hole
> needed to mount a door knob.  If it is a 10 cm in thickness, one might
> suppose a hole 5 cm in depth would qualify has half a hole.*
>
>
>
> *spike*
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201125/9a784df5/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 25 23:52:30 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 17:52:30 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Intelligence test
In-Reply-To: <0a2e8025-dbd5-3970-1794-cbc39456fc4f@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.153.1606332524.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <0a2e8025-dbd5-3970-1794-cbc39456fc4f@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYEL7QDwo9vYhYthS2s6i2MgCXB1W7XjwFk=tjaLN80Lw@mail.gmail.com>

Ben, I must have been sleeping when I wrote that. It should be:

A plant which grows in size, doubling each day, has reached the size of
half of the pool.  It will cover the pool in 30 days.  How many days did it
take to cover half of it?  Answer = 29  (quick wrong answer - 15 days) -
sorry  - bill w  (my daily admonition to students "Proofread, proofread,
proofread" is now haunting me.

On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 2:21 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On 25/11/2020 19:28, bill w wrote:
>
>
> "A pool contains a plant that doubles in size each day.  How many days
> does it take for the plant to fill the pool?"  (If you take more than three
> seconds on this one you flunk)
>
> 29 days
>
>
> You're going to have to explain that one, it makes no sense to me.
>
>
> --
> Ben Zaiboc
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201125/8b3270c0/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Nov 26 00:43:28 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 16:43:28 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Intelligence test
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYuTB9q-9wHGsux3cFxVV6mg2vAzKk4MCgHRd7+kN-__w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM5aL2dS4xdEMXSo2jV3BkUdLVdKZ35StGSTYBrwvwYE173gDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ67XoYmKOVNbeKP+=1JZAUo=ws7+6v+nswbMZ_9+nCrA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b401d6c37d$ea05df30$be119d90$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYuTB9q-9wHGsux3cFxVV6mg2vAzKk4MCgHRd7+kN-__w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <010201d6c38d$287d1760$79774620$@rainier66.com>

 

 

 

 

 

From: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2020 3:46 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: spike <spike at rainier66.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Intelligence test

 

There is a reasonable protocol which would suggest the term hole means something that goes thru, like the hole needed to mount a door knob.  If it is a 10 cm in thickness, one might suppose a hole 5 cm in depth would qualify has half a hole.

 

spike

Ah, Spike, you've done it again.  (strictly speaking, though, no, as the word 'dig' prevents your solution - now if you were digging to China.....)   bill w

 

 

 

On the contrary professor.  There are multiple ways to address the problem.  For instance, imagine if the men had no hole saw, but were laboriously constructing the hole with toothpicks, a process which could easily take three exhausting days to ?dig? through.

 

Another possibility would be if three additional men, dressed in polyester bell bottoms and tie-die T-shirts were to wander by, witness the effort to penetrate the door and were filled with admiration.  Ja I know, the younger set among us will not dig that solution.

 

However, should one show up with nine sugar coated fried dough spheres as a treat for the workers and the second three admirers, but the new arrival herself demurred from imbibing in the treats, the most equitable means of distributing the pastries would be to give to each one whole hole, then divide the remaining holes in half, so that each gets 1.5 holes.  All must be hipsters from the 60s and must appreciate donuts for that solution to work, for then all six would dig the whole hole and simultaneously dig half a hole.

 

spike 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 4:56 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

 

 

> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] Intelligence test

 

>?"A pool contains a plant that doubles in size each day.  How many days does it take for the plant to fill the pool?"  (If you take more than three seconds on this one you flunk)

 

>?Or - three men take three days to dig a hole - how many days does it take them to dig half a hole? (5 seconds max)  scroll for answers:

 

 

 

 

 

>?29 days - many just blurt out 15 - none of you, certainly?

 

Professor, as stated, the question is indeterminant.

 

 

 

You can't dig half a hole (setup did not say a hole half the size of the first one - can't assume that)

 

bill w

 

Well let?s think that thru a bit.  There is a reasonable protocol which would suggest the term hole means something that goes thru, like the hole needed to mount a door knob.  If it is a 10 cm in thickness, one might suppose a hole 5 cm in depth would qualify has half a hole.

 

spike

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201125/000669ac/attachment.htm>

From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Nov 26 02:03:08 2020
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 18:03:08 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Intelligence test
In-Reply-To: <010201d6c38d$287d1760$79774620$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAM5aL2dS4xdEMXSo2jV3BkUdLVdKZ35StGSTYBrwvwYE173gDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ67XoYmKOVNbeKP+=1JZAUo=ws7+6v+nswbMZ_9+nCrA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b401d6c37d$ea05df30$be119d90$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYuTB9q-9wHGsux3cFxVV6mg2vAzKk4MCgHRd7+kN-__w@mail.gmail.com>
 <010201d6c38d$287d1760$79774620$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTE5-uoZinm9twGMkNuRtuqiyXkjEUEG==OoGnktDe3wQ@mail.gmail.com>

Now that's a groovy solution.

On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 4:45 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 25, 2020 3:46 PM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Cc:* spike <spike at rainier66.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Intelligence test
>
>
>
> *There is a reasonable protocol which would suggest the term hole means
> something that goes thru, like the hole needed to mount a door knob.  If it
> is a 10 cm in thickness, one might suppose a hole 5 cm in depth would
> qualify has half a hole.*
>
>
>
> *spike*
>
> Ah, Spike, you've done it again.  (strictly speaking, though, no, as the
> word 'dig' prevents your solution - now if you were digging to China.....)
>  bill w
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On the contrary professor.  There are multiple ways to address the
> problem.  For instance, imagine if the men had no hole saw, but were
> laboriously constructing the hole with toothpicks, a process which could
> easily take three exhausting days to ?dig? through.
>
>
>
> Another possibility would be if three additional men, dressed in polyester
> bell bottoms and tie-die T-shirts were to wander by, witness the effort to
> penetrate the door and were filled with admiration.  Ja I know, the younger
> set among us will not dig that solution.
>
>
>
> However, should one show up with nine sugar coated fried dough spheres as
> a treat for the workers and the second three admirers, but the new arrival
> herself demurred from imbibing in the treats, the most equitable means of
> distributing the pastries would be to give to each one whole hole, then
> divide the remaining holes in half, so that each gets 1.5 holes.  All must
> be hipsters from the 60s and must appreciate donuts for that solution to
> work, for then all six would dig the whole hole and simultaneously dig half
> a hole.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 4:56 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Intelligence test
>
>
>
> >?"A pool contains a plant that doubles in size each day.  How many days
> does it take for the plant to fill the pool?"  (If you take more than three
> seconds on this one you flunk)
>
>
>
> >?Or - three men take three days to dig a hole - how many days does it
> take them to dig half a hole? (5 seconds max)  scroll for answers:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *>?29 days - many just blurt out 15 - none of you, certainly?*
>
>
>
> *Professor, as stated, the question is indeterminant.*
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *You can't dig half a hole (setup did not say a hole half the size of the
> first one - can't assume that)*
>
>
>
> *bill w*
>
>
>
> *Well let?s think that thru a bit.  There is a reasonable protocol which
> would suggest the term hole means something that goes thru, like the hole
> needed to mount a door knob.  If it is a 10 cm in thickness, one might
> suppose a hole 5 cm in depth would qualify has half a hole.*
>
>
>
> *spike*
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201125/90debd0c/attachment.htm>

From interzone at gmail.com  Thu Nov 26 02:55:09 2020
From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 21:55:09 -0500
Subject: [ExI] New paper from Anders on rarity of intelligent life
Message-ID: <CAJrqPH8Djt5+abF1ajxV60mD37noR6OHirjLGFou_OaEsr9EKg@mail.gmail.com>

Abstract
It is unknown how abundant extraterrestrial life is, or whether such life
might be complex or intelligent. On Earth, the emergence of complex
intelligent life required a preceding series of evolutionary transitions
such as abiogenesis, eukaryogenesis, and the evolution of sexual
reproduction, multicellularity, and intelligence itself. Some of these
transitions could have been extraordinarily improbable, even in conducive
environments. The emergence of intelligent life late in Earth's lifetime is
thought to be evidence for a handful of rare evolutionary transitions, but
the timing of other evolutionary transitions in the fossil record is yet to
be analyzed in a similar framework. Using a simplified Bayesian model that
combines uninformative priors and the timing of evolutionary transitions,
we demonstrate that expected evolutionary transition times likely exceed
the lifetime of Earth, perhaps by many orders of magnitude. Our results
corroborate the original argument suggested by Brandon Carter that
intelligent life in the Universe is exceptionally rare, assuming that
intelligent life elsewhere requires analogous evolutionary transitions.
Arriving at the opposite conclusion would require exceptionally
conservative priors, evidence for much earlier transitions, multiple
instances of transitions, or an alternative model that can explain why
evolutionary transitions took hundreds of millions of years without
appealing to rare chance events. Although the model is simple, it provides
an initial basis for evaluating how varying biological assumptions and
fossil record data impact the probability of evolving intelligent life, and
also provides a number of testable predictions, such as that some
biological paradoxes will remain unresolved and that planets orbiting M
dwarf stars are uninhabitable.

https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/ast.2019.2149
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201125/e4ba1fa2/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 26 16:51:06 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2020 10:51:06 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Thanksgiving
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY2TD6kJCmuPVrVf_QEHTTtdm1LgLe0FfRTkVH+XXC7iA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear chat group:

If there were a competition for being thankful, I think I must win it.

I am alive and still have most of my brain, except some of the memory parts
are slowing down.  I have two cancers, a damaged heart and a bad back.  Yet
I have more to be thankful for than to complain about.

I have access to endless books and CDs, a big TV, laptop, and coming
gadgets:  iPhone 12 Pro Max, and Applewatch.

Most of all I have two 13 year old girls who are my yard workers and my
inside help for whatever I need.  Truly they are Earth Angels.  One I am
teaching piano.  Both will order seeds and plants for next year's garden
which I will grow to the planting stage, and they will take over from
there. So I will still have a garden even though the most I can do is water
something.   Their mother, Debby, is bringing us Thanksgiving dinner.

I am thankful that all of my family is still alive. For some of us we can
only hope for better days ahead.  Even I can get better, my cardiologist
says.

I am thankful that Roz did not come off worse than she did:  she fell and
broke her right shoulder and her left forearm, the latter of which she will
have surgery for next week.  So I am doing just about everything for her
that I can do, and thanks to Angela, my daughter, for her help so far.  Roz
has osteoporosis, so the fall could have been much worse.

Having a heart attack is always a wakeup call.  So I've had mine.  I take
disgusting pills that are said to keep me alive, and should be thankful to
have them.  Well, sorta.

And a Happy Nonplastic Turkey Day to all of you:

bill w
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201126/a870ff60/attachment.htm>

From interzone at gmail.com  Thu Nov 26 17:27:52 2020
From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2020 12:27:52 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Thanksgiving
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEY2TD6kJCmuPVrVf_QEHTTtdm1LgLe0FfRTkVH+XXC7iA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEY2TD6kJCmuPVrVf_QEHTTtdm1LgLe0FfRTkVH+XXC7iA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJrqPH-3cjqLzRurGGvU1ERmn5eqeug4QbJTfWPEQV+-YTrCCw@mail.gmail.com>

Great missive, Bill.  I also have much to be thankful for including this
list.

Wishing everyone a great Thanksgiving including our friends here who aren't
Yanks.

On Thu, Nov 26, 2020, 11:52 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Dear chat group:
>
> If there were a competition for being thankful, I think I must win it.
>
> I am alive and still have most of my brain, except some of the memory
> parts are slowing down.  I have two cancers, a damaged heart and a bad
> back.  Yet I have more to be thankful for than to complain about.
>
> I have access to endless books and CDs, a big TV, laptop, and coming
> gadgets:  iPhone 12 Pro Max, and Applewatch.
>
> Most of all I have two 13 year old girls who are my yard workers and my
> inside help for whatever I need.  Truly they are Earth Angels.  One I am
> teaching piano.  Both will order seeds and plants for next year's garden
> which I will grow to the planting stage, and they will take over from
> there. So I will still have a garden even though the most I can do is water
> something.   Their mother, Debby, is bringing us Thanksgiving dinner.
>
> I am thankful that all of my family is still alive. For some of us we can
> only hope for better days ahead.  Even I can get better, my cardiologist
> says.
>
> I am thankful that Roz did not come off worse than she did:  she fell and
> broke her right shoulder and her left forearm, the latter of which she will
> have surgery for next week.  So I am doing just about everything for her
> that I can do, and thanks to Angela, my daughter, for her help so far.  Roz
> has osteoporosis, so the fall could have been much worse.
>
> Having a heart attack is always a wakeup call.  So I've had mine.  I take
> disgusting pills that are said to keep me alive, and should be thankful to
> have them.  Well, sorta.
>
> And a Happy Nonplastic Turkey Day to all of you:
>
> bill w
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201126/8f02005e/attachment-0001.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Nov 26 18:02:58 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2020 10:02:58 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Thanksgiving
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEY2TD6kJCmuPVrVf_QEHTTtdm1LgLe0FfRTkVH+XXC7iA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEY2TD6kJCmuPVrVf_QEHTTtdm1LgLe0FfRTkVH+XXC7iA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008c01d6c41e$6038da90$20aa8fb0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: [ExI] Thanksgiving

 

Dear chat group:

 

>?If there were a competition for being thankful, I think I must win it? bill w

 

 

Silver medal at best sir, for surely I am thankfuller than thou.  Life in our world today does not suck.  We have enough food, we have homes, things are going well for humanity in our fortunate times.

 

Since we are generally technology fans here but not followers of any particular deity, now is a good time to thank technology for the good things that make our lives not suck.  Technology is great: you don?t need to pray to it, you don?t need to give it money (well, I suppose that depends on how you look at it (I have given plenty for computers over the years (but oh they have given back a thousand-fold.)))

 

I have looked back over the years and identified what I think are the most important developments which were the punctuation in the equilibrium, developments which caused a chain reaction in cool stuff.  I don?t include stuff before my time, such as the communications tech which developed during the war.

 

I have these: 

 

1.           Commercially viable computers, which I will kinda arbitrarily assign to Apple computer, about 1977.

2.         HTML, which enabled the modern internet as we know it with websites and links and all the cool stuff on there, about 1993

3.         Cell phone technology, which reached inflection point around 2000 or so.

 

Those are the three biggies in my lifetime, and ja I know they are debatable, but since we are in a festival of thanksgiving, do share please with this tech-oriented group what developments rocked your world and which ones you anticipate soon.

 

I am tempted to add Zoom to that list, because I have discovered how that one seemingly minor development is the key to open a hundred doors.  Now I can pull together meetings with students and do software efforts without ever having to suffer their actual presence (ewww, teenagers, take me away Calgon (but if I hafta work with them for half an hour on the computer they are most tolerable (and highly productive (fine example available on request.)))))

 

Let?s hear it please.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201126/bc0a5d30/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 26 18:15:18 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2020 12:15:18 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Thanksgiving
In-Reply-To: <008c01d6c41e$6038da90$20aa8fb0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEY2TD6kJCmuPVrVf_QEHTTtdm1LgLe0FfRTkVH+XXC7iA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008c01d6c41e$6038da90$20aa8fb0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEadX=n5EVORuBBdTTxTOeskCcUuppNQExOXBvVis5CFrQ@mail.gmail.com>

do share please with this tech-oriented group what developments rocked your
world and which ones you anticipate soon.  spike

I was always the student in the class who asked the most questions.  I have
been inhaling books and knowledge (and wish more of it had stuck) since
first grade.  So an easy answer for me:  access to knowledge far outweighs
smartphones, smartTVs, or smart anything else.  The web.  For the future:
much better voice to text or action, so disabled or simply nontech people
can use more of the technology than they can do now.  With no knowledge
whatsoever, we will be able to control phones, TV, computer, house computer
system (not only for rich people in the new future, I hope), our car,
washing machine and a lot more.  This is a fantastic age and an even better
one to come for the mentally retarded, disabled, elderly and so on.

And so much of it is cheap - available to almost everyone - almost (we
should subsidize the very poor:  computers for all - becoming an essential
for all of us.)    bill w

On Thu, Nov 26, 2020 at 12:05 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* [ExI] Thanksgiving
>
>
>
> Dear chat group:
>
>
>
> >?If there were a competition for being thankful, I think I must win it?
> bill w
>
>
>
>
>
> Silver medal at best sir, for surely I am thankfuller than thou.  Life in
> our world today does not suck.  We have enough food, we have homes, things
> are going well for humanity in our fortunate times.
>
>
>
> Since we are generally technology fans here but not followers of any
> particular deity, now is a good time to thank technology for the good
> things that make our lives not suck.  Technology is great: you don?t need
> to pray to it, you don?t need to give it money (well, I suppose that
> depends on how you look at it (I have given plenty for computers over the
> years (but oh they have given back a thousand-fold.)))
>
>
>
> I have looked back over the years and identified what I think are the most
> important developments which were the punctuation in the equilibrium,
> developments which caused a chain reaction in cool stuff.  I don?t include
> stuff before my time, such as the communications tech which developed
> during the war.
>
>
>
> I have these:
>
>
>
> 1.           Commercially viable computers, which I will kinda
> arbitrarily assign to Apple computer, about 1977.
>
> 2.         HTML, which enabled the modern internet as we know it with
> websites and links and all the cool stuff on there, about 1993
>
> 3.         Cell phone technology, which reached inflection point around
> 2000 or so.
>
>
>
> Those are the three biggies in my lifetime, and ja I know they are
> debatable, but since we are in a festival of thanksgiving, do share please
> with this tech-oriented group what developments rocked your world and which
> ones you anticipate soon.
>
>
>
> I am tempted to add Zoom to that list, because I have discovered how that
> one seemingly minor development is the key to open a hundred doors.  Now I
> can pull together meetings with students and do software efforts without
> ever having to suffer their actual presence (ewww, teenagers, take me away
> Calgon (but if I hafta work with them for half an hour on the computer they
> are most tolerable (and highly productive (fine example available on
> request.)))))
>
>
>
> Let?s hear it please.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201126/74d8991c/attachment.htm>

From sparge at gmail.com  Thu Nov 26 18:29:52 2020
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2020 13:29:52 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Thanksgiving
In-Reply-To: <008c01d6c41e$6038da90$20aa8fb0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEY2TD6kJCmuPVrVf_QEHTTtdm1LgLe0FfRTkVH+XXC7iA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008c01d6c41e$6038da90$20aa8fb0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2cJFXAPqOTap7kjyK3QH=mkzT2h4MrYr8uttK=g2Ai=Pw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 26, 2020 at 1:05 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> I have these:
>
> 1.           Commercially viable computers, which I will kinda
> arbitrarily assign to Apple computer, about 1977.
>
You mean commercially viable personal computers? Because mainframes and
minis were already well established by then. Commodore and others helped
pave the way for Apple.

> 2.         HTML, which enabled the modern internet as we know it with
> websites and links and all the cool stuff on there, about 1993
>
That's bass ackwards: the Internet paved the way for HTML and the WWW. And
the smart phone.

> 3.         Cell phone technology, which reached inflection point around
> 2000 or so.
>
 My list would include:

  personal computers
  free software (GNU, Linux, and many more)
  public-key encryption
  the Internet
  GPS & sat nav
  searching (AltaVista, Google Search, Bing, DuckDuckGo)
  social networking (email, Usenet, MySpace, Twitter, FB)
  crowdsourcing (free software, Wikipedia, gofundme, pledgemusic,
Uber/Lyft, Grubhub/DoorDash)

Coming soon? Maybe:

  AI
  uploading

-Dave
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201126/7c9875eb/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 26 18:58:10 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2020 12:58:10 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Thanksgiving
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2cJFXAPqOTap7kjyK3QH=mkzT2h4MrYr8uttK=g2Ai=Pw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEY2TD6kJCmuPVrVf_QEHTTtdm1LgLe0FfRTkVH+XXC7iA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008c01d6c41e$6038da90$20aa8fb0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAM5aL2cJFXAPqOTap7kjyK3QH=mkzT2h4MrYr8uttK=g2Ai=Pw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEa-QVkkGWBaYFkCafUjKxk76QB2iop3ZLUBJ0v0feES6A@mail.gmail.com>

For the future - near if possible:  far better usability for tech stuff.
My recent frustration with the Samsung phone is a great example:  tons of
functions that I can use.  When I got it, if you will recall, it did not
even tell me how to turn it off.  What is a person with even less tech
savvy than me going to do with it?  I am getting an Apple watch and am very
interested to see the difference between it and the Samsung.  Now, many
tech gadgets are unusable by nontech people.  So the faults in the tech
system lie between the designers of the hardware and the users:  i.e.
software.  How to use the damned things we buy.   bill w



On Thu, Nov 26, 2020 at 12:32 PM Dave Sill via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 26, 2020 at 1:05 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I have these:
>>
>> 1.           Commercially viable computers, which I will kinda
>> arbitrarily assign to Apple computer, about 1977.
>>
> You mean commercially viable personal computers? Because mainframes and
> minis were already well established by then. Commodore and others helped
> pave the way for Apple.
>
>> 2.         HTML, which enabled the modern internet as we know it with
>> websites and links and all the cool stuff on there, about 1993
>>
> That's bass ackwards: the Internet paved the way for HTML and the WWW. And
> the smart phone.
>
>> 3.         Cell phone technology, which reached inflection point around
>> 2000 or so.
>>
>  My list would include:
>
>   personal computers
>   free software (GNU, Linux, and many more)
>   public-key encryption
>   the Internet
>   GPS & sat nav
>   searching (AltaVista, Google Search, Bing, DuckDuckGo)
>   social networking (email, Usenet, MySpace, Twitter, FB)
>   crowdsourcing (free software, Wikipedia, gofundme, pledgemusic,
> Uber/Lyft, Grubhub/DoorDash)
>
> Coming soon? Maybe:
>
>   AI
>   uploading
>
> -Dave
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201126/91ca36a6/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 27 16:24:07 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2020 10:24:07 -0600
Subject: [ExI] show me your toys
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZ_bktibfBGziUj0S_0OdUKsKxxecY4eLcBrBbRvK3M_w@mail.gmail.com>

OK, so it's not Xmas, and we aren't kids, but we do have our toys, right?
So what are y'all buying this Black Friday?  I thought it would be
interesting to ask a bunch of techies.  Me?  Already overspent on iPhone
and Apple Watch.

bill w
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201127/b72bd1e9/attachment.htm>

From bronto at pobox.com  Fri Nov 27 17:07:24 2020
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2020 09:07:24 -0800
Subject: [ExI] show me your toys
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZ_bktibfBGziUj0S_0OdUKsKxxecY4eLcBrBbRvK3M_w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZ_bktibfBGziUj0S_0OdUKsKxxecY4eLcBrBbRvK3M_w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cd7e99c6-1e81-5c65-5083-db21b8ba9d35@pobox.com>

On 2020-11-27 08:24, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:
> OK, so it's not Xmas, and we aren't kids, but we do have our toys, 
> right? So what are y'all?buying this Black Friday?? I thought it would 
> be interesting to ask a bunch of techies.? Me?? Already overspent on 
> iPhone and Apple Watch.

Would be nothing, but I found yesterday that I broke my TV at some point 
in moving.

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 27 18:04:15 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2020 12:04:15 -0600
Subject: [ExI] show me your toys
In-Reply-To: <cd7e99c6-1e81-5c65-5083-db21b8ba9d35@pobox.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZ_bktibfBGziUj0S_0OdUKsKxxecY4eLcBrBbRvK3M_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <cd7e99c6-1e81-5c65-5083-db21b8ba9d35@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY0Wg6y0snHYsTdMimezq=R1e0+-h0fKszZsPrfnc8shg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 11:33 AM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On 2020-11-27 08:24, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:
> > OK, so it's not Xmas, and we aren't kids, but we do have our toys,
> > right? So what are y'all buying this Black Friday?  I thought it would
> > be interesting to ask a bunch of techies.  Me?  Already overspent on
> > iPhone and Apple Watch.
>
> Would be nothing, but I found yesterday that I broke my TV at some point
> in moving.
> Ouch.  At least you have a great day to buy one.   bill w
> --
> *\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201127/77ce717a/attachment.htm>

From bronto at pobox.com  Fri Nov 27 22:20:39 2020
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2020 14:20:39 -0800
Subject: [ExI] show me your toys
In-Reply-To: <cd7e99c6-1e81-5c65-5083-db21b8ba9d35@pobox.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZ_bktibfBGziUj0S_0OdUKsKxxecY4eLcBrBbRvK3M_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <cd7e99c6-1e81-5c65-5083-db21b8ba9d35@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <7b7f1b18-e551-3bba-f08e-75fb8fb5ef1b@pobox.com>

On 2020-11-27 09:07, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat wrote:
> Would be nothing, but I found yesterday that I broke my TV at some point
> in moving.

And the new one is cheaper and fancier.

... I won't say I'm not tempted to get a bigger monitor

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 27 22:26:00 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2020 16:26:00 -0600
Subject: [ExI] show me your toys
In-Reply-To: <7b7f1b18-e551-3bba-f08e-75fb8fb5ef1b@pobox.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZ_bktibfBGziUj0S_0OdUKsKxxecY4eLcBrBbRvK3M_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <cd7e99c6-1e81-5c65-5083-db21b8ba9d35@pobox.com>
 <7b7f1b18-e551-3bba-f08e-75fb8fb5ef1b@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbGB8FM5kN0nDj1ymGEcFaN_FR_=s3aeQJDco1UXCQmGg@mail.gmail.com>

Maybe your home owner's insurance will cover some of the loss of your TV
  Get the monitor - what the Hell?  bill w

On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 4:22 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On 2020-11-27 09:07, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat wrote:
> > Would be nothing, but I found yesterday that I broke my TV at some point
> > in moving.
>
> And the new one is cheaper and fancier.
>
> ... I won't say I'm not tempted to get a bigger monitor
>
> --
> *\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201127/f5a7b5f4/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Nov 27 23:14:37 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2020 15:14:37 -0800
Subject: [ExI] show me your toys
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbGB8FM5kN0nDj1ymGEcFaN_FR_=s3aeQJDco1UXCQmGg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZ_bktibfBGziUj0S_0OdUKsKxxecY4eLcBrBbRvK3M_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <cd7e99c6-1e81-5c65-5083-db21b8ba9d35@pobox.com>
 <7b7f1b18-e551-3bba-f08e-75fb8fb5ef1b@pobox.com>
 <CAO+xQEbGB8FM5kN0nDj1ymGEcFaN_FR_=s3aeQJDco1UXCQmGg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004e01d6c513$1433adf0$3c9b09d0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] show me your toys

 

Maybe your home owner's insurance will cover some of the loss of your TV      Get the monitor - what the Hell?  bill w

 

 

My monitor is the most used piece of electronic gear in my house.  A prole can get really nice ones now for not too much money.

 

spike

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201127/e1876ecd/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 27 23:48:07 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2020 17:48:07 -0600
Subject: [ExI] when is enough enough
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaRo26qdgfZQgF_hAoRQnnZDDZDgJwgtmWx=u4-Y6ikOA@mail.gmail.com>

Feuds have gone on in Scotland for hundreds of years. The Middle EAst is
one giant feud between the Jews and everybody, and the Sunnis and the
Shiites..  No doubt one could find such things all over the world.  Korea
and Japan -Japan won't apologize for using Korean women as whores for their
army.

How does it end?  One attacks the other, does some damage, and the other
has to get revenge.  Getting actually even seems never to occur.

I am no expert on evolutionary psychology, and none of you may be either.
It was not that long ago that the world functioned at the tribal level and
I suppose we have not had the time to evolve beyond that. So we are stuck
at the level of the tragedy of the commons - every man/tribe for him/itself.

Let's upload everybody and then have the AI pull the plug.

bill w
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201127/b890bfa5/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 28 15:31:34 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2020 23:31:34 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Another Win for Senolytics: Fighting Aging at the Cellular
 Level Just Got Easier
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3wvFNC1_rw6-sJpOT-fmXbs9q6R5A4b1-YE34Pm3eufA@mail.gmail.com>

"Yet how these hallmarks fit together into a whole picture remained a
mystery. Now, thanks to a new study
<https://www.nature.com/articles/s42255-020-00305-3> published in *Nature
Metabolism*, we?re finally starting to connect the dots. In mice, the study
linked up three promising anti-aging pathways?*battling senescent cells,
inflammation, and wonky energy production in cells?into a cohesive
detective story that points to a master culprit that drives aging. *

Spoiler: senolytics, the drug that wipes out senescent cells and a darling
candidate for prolonging healthspan, may also have powers to rescue energy
production in cells.

Let?s meet the players..."
https://singularityhub.com/2020/11/24/another-win-for-senolytics-fighting-aging-at-the-cellular-level-just-got-easier/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201128/6c9649bf/attachment.htm>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 28 15:34:01 2020
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2020 23:34:01 +0800
Subject: [ExI] This Company Wants to Put a Human-Size Hologram Booth in Your
 Living Room
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy39FvnD72DbwvNN2Y3oa0J-j4_hgERJszRjegKqZvMyQA@mail.gmail.com>

"Over the last several months we?ve gotten very used to communicating via
video chat. Zoom, FaceTime, Google Hangouts, and the like have not only
replaced most in-person business meetings, they?ve acted as a stand-in for
gatherings between friends and reunions between relatives. Just a few short
years ago, many of us would have found it strange to think we?d be spending
so much time talking to people ?face-to-face? while sitting right in our
own homes.

Now there?s a new technology looming on the horizon that may one day
replace video calls with an even stranger-to-contemplate, more futuristic
tool: real-time, full-body holograms.

Picture this: you?re sitting in your living room having a cup of coffee
when the phone-booth-size box in the corner dings, alerting you that you
have an incoming call. You accept it, and within seconds your best friend
(or your partner, your grandmother, your boss) appears in the box?in the
form of millions of points of light engineered to look and sound exactly
like the real person. And the real person is on the other end of the line,
talking to you in real time as their holographic likeness moves around the
box?you can see their gestures, body language, and facial expression just
as if they were really there with you."
https://singularityhub.com/2020/11/25/this-company-wants-to-put-a-human-size-hologram-booth-in-your-living-room/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201128/cfa59920/attachment-0001.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Nov 28 15:52:33 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2020 07:52:33 -0800
Subject: [ExI] This Company Wants to Put a Human-Size Hologram Booth in
 Your Living Room
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy39FvnD72DbwvNN2Y3oa0J-j4_hgERJszRjegKqZvMyQA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy39FvnD72DbwvNN2Y3oa0J-j4_hgERJszRjegKqZvMyQA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002301d6c59e$7d23a140$776ae3c0$@rainier66.com>

I can 

 

>> On Behalf Of John Grigg via extropy-chat
Subject: [ExI] This Company Wants to Put a Human-Size Hologram Booth in Your Living Room

 

>?"Over the last several months we?ve gotten very used to communicating via video chat. Zoom, FaceTime, Google Hangouts, and the like have not only replaced most in-person business meetings, they?ve acted as a stand-in for gatherings between friends and reunions between relatives. ?

 

 

This I can tell ya this: Zoom has revolutionized the hell outta the whole DNA-based genealogy biz.  If one is into that sorta thing, one can find one?s relatives with cheap DNA kits, set up online communications, have family reunions.  You quickly figure out who the smart ones are, and the ones who know stuff.  Progress is made quickly.  You can find patterns in prevalent medical conditions, or genetic-linked therapies that work, that sorta thing.  

 

Zoom changed everything.

 

spike

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201128/3382d3c3/attachment.htm>

From giulio at gmail.com  Sat Nov 28 16:02:21 2020
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2020 17:02:21 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Terasem Colloquium, December 10: Giulia Bassani,
 Yalda Mousavinia, Philippe van Nedervelde
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyefZQs0Dxz9zDhA9s+RwYj10kWsoEQg_stqiyRXQH6AqQ@mail.gmail.com>

Terasem Colloquium, December 10: Giulia Bassani, Yalda Mousavinia,
Philippe van Nedervelde

Giulia Bassani, Yalda Mousavinia, and Philippe van Nedervelde (among
others) will speak at the December 2020 Terasem Colloquium...

https://turingchurch.net/terasem-colloquium-december-10-giulia-bassani-yalda-mousavinia-philippe-van-nedervelde-a34ba4f9039f

From hibbard at wisc.edu  Sat Nov 28 16:18:02 2020
From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2020 10:18:02 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [ExI] Thanksgiving
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.2011281016340.16258@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>

During the pandemic and its travel bans, I've been enjoying
virtual travel via Google Earth. You can share your Google
Earth window in Zoom, to take friends along on your travels.
When we find something interesting, a web search can usually
tell us all about it.

From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Nov 28 17:15:34 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2020 09:15:34 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Thanksgiving
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.21.2011281016340.16258@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.21.2011281016340.16258@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <004901d6c5aa$15c061d0$41412570$@rainier66.com>


...> On Behalf Of Bill Hibbard via extropy-chat

Subject: Re: [ExI] Thanksgiving

>...During the pandemic and its travel bans, I've been enjoying virtual
travel via Google Earth. You can share your Google Earth window in Zoom, to
take friends along on your travels.
When we find something interesting, a web search can usually tell us all
about it.
_______________________________________________



Hi Bill, ja, and that even created a new sport.  Google maps street view
requires a Google car to roll around (automated driver but with a carbon
unit behind the wheel) taking pictures.  Things change, so they update them
periodically.  Since I live close to their HQ, they update around here
pretty often and I see the Google cars frequently.  

Google has some kind of algorithm which is supposed to pixelate faces, but
it doesn't always work.  So the game is to do something silly or funny when
the Google car comes by, then go into street view later and see if you are
immortalized doing whatever silliness you invented on the spot, leaping
skyward, mooning, making gang signs, that sorta thing.  I call it
schmoogling.  If one takes one's dignity very seriously, I cannot recommend
this particular sport.

Now it has become even easier, since Google has fallen out of favor in some
circles.  Apple is making their own version of Google Street View.  I saw
their car last week, so I schmoogled that car.  I suppose it should be
called something else.  I schmappled it.

This strategy will work fine until Duck Duck Go decides they want to do a
street view.  Then the sport will have an awkward name perhaps.

spike




From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Nov 28 18:52:46 2020
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2020 10:52:46 -0800
Subject: [ExI] This Company Wants to Put a Human-Size Hologram Booth in
 Your Living Room
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy39FvnD72DbwvNN2Y3oa0J-j4_hgERJszRjegKqZvMyQA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy39FvnD72DbwvNN2Y3oa0J-j4_hgERJszRjegKqZvMyQA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSxPa1EPHZ62gtLxzsxYeXim6Fow2HL5Cfsvb8Zi-LxrA@mail.gmail.com>

My hunch is this won't catch on, for the same reason that videophones have
not replaced telephones.

Yes, yes, there are Zoom calls these days: group calls, where video is
often a necessary part of the experience, not to see people (in the
majority of my online calls this year where it's just been people talking,
no one used video) but for presentations and similar sharing of data.

But there are still unscheduled synchronous voice-only calls where video
does not contribute, and thus is not generally supported.  Likewise,
holography would not contribute to said calls, so it is unlikely to be
adopted for that use.

For this technology to take hold, some application must be found where it
actually meaningfully contributes to the conversation, and is not just a
neat feature.  For all that proponents of video calls rail about the
benefits of body language and facial expression, people have been able to
communicate just fine over voice alone without those cues for over a
century, without - in almost all cases - missing anything significant.

On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 7:39 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> "Over the last several months we?ve gotten very used to communicating via
> video chat. Zoom, FaceTime, Google Hangouts, and the like have not only
> replaced most in-person business meetings, they?ve acted as a stand-in for
> gatherings between friends and reunions between relatives. Just a few short
> years ago, many of us would have found it strange to think we?d be spending
> so much time talking to people ?face-to-face? while sitting right in our
> own homes.
>
> Now there?s a new technology looming on the horizon that may one day
> replace video calls with an even stranger-to-contemplate, more futuristic
> tool: real-time, full-body holograms.
>
> Picture this: you?re sitting in your living room having a cup of coffee
> when the phone-booth-size box in the corner dings, alerting you that you
> have an incoming call. You accept it, and within seconds your best friend
> (or your partner, your grandmother, your boss) appears in the box?in the
> form of millions of points of light engineered to look and sound exactly
> like the real person. And the real person is on the other end of the line,
> talking to you in real time as their holographic likeness moves around the
> box?you can see their gestures, body language, and facial expression just
> as if they were really there with you."
>
> https://singularityhub.com/2020/11/25/this-company-wants-to-put-a-human-size-hologram-booth-in-your-living-room/
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201128/70509139/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 28 20:11:22 2020
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2020 14:11:22 -0600
Subject: [ExI] This Company Wants to Put a Human-Size Hologram Booth in
 Your Living Room
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSxPa1EPHZ62gtLxzsxYeXim6Fow2HL5Cfsvb8Zi-LxrA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy39FvnD72DbwvNN2Y3oa0J-j4_hgERJszRjegKqZvMyQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSxPa1EPHZ62gtLxzsxYeXim6Fow2HL5Cfsvb8Zi-LxrA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEb6EeHq2DMVzbOxX-+pi7QYd3gxKoC0Pe+ff1vho=5Bhg@mail.gmail.com>

Adrian wrote -  people have been able to communicate just fine over voice
alone without those cues for over a century, without - in almost all cases
- missing anything significant.

In Duping, nonfiction book, I learned that detecting lying by any means is
very difficult and the average person can beat chance by only a few
percent.  So adding vision to sound doesn't improve lie detection much at
all.
The hologram gadget eventually may be used for verification identity,
though I suppose that can be subverted too. Imagine that someone has
recorded Joe's voice very extensively.  Then a program is written so that
no matter how you speak into it, it comes out sounding like Joe.  In fact
if you put it through Oscilloscope analysis it has Joe's exact features -
indistinguishable. Could this be doable now?   bill w

On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 12:55 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> My hunch is this won't catch on, for the same reason that videophones have
> not replaced telephones.
>
> Yes, yes, there are Zoom calls these days: group calls, where video is
> often a necessary part of the experience, not to see people (in the
> majority of my online calls this year where it's just been people talking,
> no one used video) but for presentations and similar sharing of data.
>
> But there are still unscheduled synchronous voice-only calls where video
> does not contribute, and thus is not generally supported.  Likewise,
> holography would not contribute to said calls, so it is unlikely to be
> adopted for that use.
>
> For this technology to take hold, some application must be found where it
> actually meaningfully contributes to the conversation, and is not just a
> neat feature.  For all that proponents of video calls rail about the
> benefits of body language and facial expression, people have been able to
> communicate just fine over voice alone without those cues for over a
> century, without - in almost all cases - missing anything significant.
>
> On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 7:39 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> "Over the last several months we?ve gotten very used to communicating via
>> video chat. Zoom, FaceTime, Google Hangouts, and the like have not only
>> replaced most in-person business meetings, they?ve acted as a stand-in for
>> gatherings between friends and reunions between relatives. Just a few short
>> years ago, many of us would have found it strange to think we?d be spending
>> so much time talking to people ?face-to-face? while sitting right in our
>> own homes.
>>
>> Now there?s a new technology looming on the horizon that may one day
>> replace video calls with an even stranger-to-contemplate, more futuristic
>> tool: real-time, full-body holograms.
>>
>> Picture this: you?re sitting in your living room having a cup of coffee
>> when the phone-booth-size box in the corner dings, alerting you that you
>> have an incoming call. You accept it, and within seconds your best friend
>> (or your partner, your grandmother, your boss) appears in the box?in the
>> form of millions of points of light engineered to look and sound exactly
>> like the real person. And the real person is on the other end of the line,
>> talking to you in real time as their holographic likeness moves around the
>> box?you can see their gestures, body language, and facial expression just
>> as if they were really there with you."
>>
>> https://singularityhub.com/2020/11/25/this-company-wants-to-put-a-human-size-hologram-booth-in-your-living-room/
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201128/b65bf39a/attachment.htm>

From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Nov 28 22:27:18 2020
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2020 22:27:18 +0000
Subject: [ExI] This Company Wants to Put a Human-Size Hologram Booth in
 Your Living Room
In-Reply-To: <002301d6c59e$7d23a140$776ae3c0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAGSKFy39FvnD72DbwvNN2Y3oa0J-j4_hgERJszRjegKqZvMyQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <002301d6c59e$7d23a140$776ae3c0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armj9wP3uS2wWxK-uXzPq6arVVHO8A7TTAbFv1AKyuesAyA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 28 Nov 2020 at 15:55, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> This I can tell ya this: Zoom has revolutionized the hell outta the whole DNA-based genealogy biz.  If one is into that sorta thing, one can find one?s relatives with cheap DNA kits, set up online communications, have family reunions.  You quickly figure out who the smart ones are, and the ones who know stuff.  Progress is made quickly.  You can find patterns in prevalent medical conditions, or genetic-linked therapies that work, that sorta thing.
>
> Zoom changed everything.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


But you can't necessarily find the pretty ones......

I've just read that Zoom has a "beautify" setting under Video options.
Apparently it doesn't change much, just smooths out spots and
wrinkles. It's intended for early morning Zoom calls before you've had
time to put your makeup on.
Could be useful for Spike???    ;)


BillK


From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Nov 29 07:14:26 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2020 23:14:26 -0800
Subject: [ExI] This Company Wants to Put a Human-Size Hologram Booth in
 Your Living Room
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armj9wP3uS2wWxK-uXzPq6arVVHO8A7TTAbFv1AKyuesAyA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy39FvnD72DbwvNN2Y3oa0J-j4_hgERJszRjegKqZvMyQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <002301d6c59e$7d23a140$776ae3c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armj9wP3uS2wWxK-uXzPq6arVVHO8A7TTAbFv1AKyuesAyA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006901d6c61f$45ec2cc0$d1c48640$@rainier66.com>


> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] This Company Wants to Put a Human-Size Hologram Booth in Your Living Room

On Sat, 28 Nov 2020 at 15:55, spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> This I can tell ya this: Zoom has revolutionized the hell outta the whole DNA-based genealogy biz...  You quickly figure out who the smart ones are, and the ones who know stuff... spike
> _______________________________________________


>...But you can't necessarily find the pretty ones......

>...I've just read that Zoom has a "beautify" setting under Video options.
Apparently it doesn't change much, just smooths out spots and wrinkles. It's intended for early morning Zoom calls before you've had time to put your makeup on.
Could be useful for Spike???    ;)


>...BillK

_______________________________________________

BillK, it doesn't work unless you know how to use it right.  What I do is rig up my camera on Zoom, set it to Beautify, then get a second camera focused on my first screen and set that one to beautify, then a third, fourth and fifth camera, each focused on the previous beautify screens, each set to beautify.  Then with about five iterations of beautify working for me, I am up to about average in appearance and I'm good to go.

I am now working on a setting I call smartify.

spike



From ben at zaiboc.net  Sun Nov 29 10:56:56 2020
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2020 10:56:56 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Thanksgiving
In-Reply-To: <mailman.157.1606577636.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.157.1606577636.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <8e315dc8-4617-312e-e034-386cd4a73179@zaiboc.net>

On 28/11/2020 15:33, bill w wrote:
> For the future - near if possible:? far better usability for tech 
> stuff.? My recent frustration with the Samsung phone is a great 
> example:? tons of functions that I can use.? When I got it, if you 
> will recall, it did not even tell me how to turn it off.? What is a 
> person with even less tech savvy than me going?to do with it?? I am 
> getting an Apple watch and am very interested to see the difference 
> between it and the Samsung.? Now, many tech gadgets are unusable by 
> nontech people.? So the faults in the tech system lie between the 
> designers of the hardware and the users:? i.e. software.? How to use 
> the damned things we buy.? ?bill w

I second that, bigtime. What happened to human-computer ergonomics? It 
used to be a field of study. The whole concept of figuring out how to 
make computer systems easy to use seems to have been forgotten about, 
and now we have a multitude of pesky icons, scattered all over the 
place, no clue what any of them mean, no menus (why?!! For Evolutions' 
sake, why ditch menus?! They are far and away the best interface 
system), and precious little help. Many interfaces now don't even have a 
context menu or mouse-over text. You have to experiment (sometimes with 
a steep cost) to find out what all the icons do. It does my head in.

I notice nobody has mentioned Virtual (and Augmented) Reality as a 
near-term tech to be anticipated. I'm keenly anticipating that, but 
expect it will have to be substantially hacked, or be open-source (thus 
easily hackable), to be useable. The commercial versions will be 
dreadful, no doubt.

After that, I'd hope for life-extension tech, including replacement 
bio-synthetic body parts, leading to full cyborgisation.

Uploading and AGI will be much longer-term, I think. (decades, I mean, 
not centuries. On the centuries-and-longer scale, I don't think it makes 
sense to predict anything at all, we almost certainly aren't capable of 
even conceiving of anything remotely accurate), and for me, they are 
'horizon' technologies, as ultimate as I can see so far.

-- 
Ben Zaiboc


From sparge at gmail.com  Sun Nov 29 14:08:18 2020
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2020 09:08:18 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Thanksgiving
In-Reply-To: <8e315dc8-4617-312e-e034-386cd4a73179@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.157.1606577636.17701.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <8e315dc8-4617-312e-e034-386cd4a73179@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2dG2y8zRj1FQobf6a4bjEe26ZE2gOjsV4SgEF88YAoOtw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 5:59 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> I second that, bigtime. What happened to human-computer ergonomics? It
> used to be a field of study.


It's been subsumed by the User Experience (UX), which encompasses all
aspects of the user's interaction with a company and its products and
services. UX is considered sexier and more important than the user
interface (UI), and UI has suffered as a result. I think that many
widely-used user interfaces are horrid, e.g., Hulu Live (streaming TV with
"DVR"), Snapchat (photo/video social networking), and FaceBook. Google
generally does a pretty good job, though there's room for improvement.

I notice nobody has mentioned Virtual (and Augmented) Reality as a
> near-term tech to be anticipated. I'm keenly anticipating that, but
> expect it will have to be substantially hacked, or be open-source (thus
> easily hackable), to be useable. The commercial versions will be
> dreadful, no doubt.
>

 Google Translate translating written language in real time in video is
already very useful. VR seems to always be 5 years away from awesome.

After that, I'd hope for life-extension tech, including replacement
> bio-synthetic body parts, leading to full cyborgisation.
>

Additive manufacturing (AKA 3D printing) will be a big part of that.

-Dave
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201129/4a61e8ac/attachment.htm>

From avant at sollegro.com  Sun Nov 29 16:18:36 2020
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2020 08:18:36 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Queen's Gambit
Message-ID: <20201129081836.Horde.6s0_ku3qLgVfSA4lZeRG3h5@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>


While not science fiction, enough people on this list have discussed  
chess in the past (Spike?) that I think that the series "Queen's  
Gambit" on Netflix would appeal to them. I think Spike would really  
enjoy the chess games and exposition while also being mortified by the  
recurrent themes of addiction and drug abuse. All in all, I think that  
Anna Taylor Joy is amazing (like a female Johnny Depp) at playing  
Elizabeth Harmon, a fictional genius who grows up in an orphanage  
before developing a drug addiction and embarking on a quest to defeat  
grandmasters in the male-dominated world of chess. Here is one of my  
favorite lines from the show to demonstrate the quality of the writing:

"Chess isn?t always competitive. Chess can also be beautiful. It was  
the board I noticed first. It?s an entire world of just 64 squares. I  
feel safe in it. I can control it. I can dominate it. And it?s  
predictable, so if I get hurt, I only have myself to blame."

Stuart LaForge



From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Nov 29 17:13:39 2020
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2020 09:13:39 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Queen's Gambit
In-Reply-To: <20201129081836.Horde.6s0_ku3qLgVfSA4lZeRG3h5@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <20201129081836.Horde.6s0_ku3qLgVfSA4lZeRG3h5@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <007001d6c672$fba7ae10$f2f70a30$@rainier66.com>


-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 8:19 AM
To: ExI Chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com>
Subject: [ExI] Queen's Gambit


>...While not science fiction, enough people on this list have discussed chess in the past (Spike?) that I think that the series "Queen's Gambit" on Netflix would appeal to them. I think Spike would really enjoy the chess games and exposition while also being mortified by the recurrent themes of addiction and drug abuse. All in all, I think that Anna Taylor Joy is amazing (like a female Johnny Depp) at playing Elizabeth Harmon, a fictional genius who grows up in an orphanage before developing a drug addiction and embarking on a quest to defeat grandmasters in the male-dominated world of chess. Here is one of my favorite lines from the show to demonstrate the quality of the writing:

>..."Chess isn?t always competitive. Chess can also be beautiful. It was the board I noticed first. It?s an entire world of just 64 squares. I feel safe in it. I can control it. I can dominate it. And it?s predictable, so if I get hurt, I only have myself to blame."

Stuart LaForge


_______________________________________________


 Thanks Stuart!

Ja, that does sound interesting.  The premise is a bit far fetched perhaps, but fiction is sometimes that way, and besides, Anya Taylor-Joy is smoking hot, with smoke and hot left over after it burns away the implausibility of tranquilizers helping chess players.
  
The top players are known to take performance enhancers, but none of them are tranquilizers.  That would be what you don't want.  If you could somehow get some of that into your opponent perhaps that would be the trick, but they would feel the dart going in, surely against the rules, never work.

>..."Chess isn?t always competitive. Chess can also be beautiful..."

Whaaaat?  Competition isn't beautiful now?  Competition breeds excellence!  Of course it is beautiful.  Chess tournaments have beauty prizes for the most brilliant game.  This prize is often as coveted as the trophy, for the trophy is packed away in the closet and forgotten, but a beautiful attack lives on forever.  This sentiment was expressed so well by Ivan Sokolov, who was beating the hell outta the world champion, who hatched a beautifully sneaky desperate counter-attack, which succeeded.  Sokolov comment is one every serious tournament player can relate to: "...eef I do not keel self tonight, I veel leef thousant years..."  

spike



From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Nov 29 17:30:51 2020
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2020 17:30:51 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Queen's Gambit
In-Reply-To: <007001d6c672$fba7ae10$f2f70a30$@rainier66.com>
References: <20201129081836.Horde.6s0_ku3qLgVfSA4lZeRG3h5@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <007001d6c672$fba7ae10$f2f70a30$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjeeLO3dVnJ8U+F55eui+oFYA9LgWC0KEbstuePk9H2Uw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 29 Nov 2020 at 17:16, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
<snip>
> Whaaaat?  Competition isn't beautiful now?  Competition breeds excellence!  Of course it is beautiful.  Chess tournaments have beauty prizes for the most brilliant game.  This prize is often as coveted as the trophy, for the trophy is packed away in the closet and forgotten, but a beautiful attack lives on forever.  This sentiment was expressed so well by Ivan Sokolov, who was beating the hell outta the world champion, who hatched a beautifully sneaky desperate counter-attack, which succeeded.  Sokolov comment is one every serious tournament player can relate to: "...eef I do not keel self tonight, I veel leef thousant years..."
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________

Must mention Mikhail Tal.
<https://thechessworld.com/articles/general-information/10-best-chess-games-by-mikhail-tal/>
Quote:
Mikhail Tal was the 8th World Chess Champion and widely recognized as
a creative genius and one of the best attacking players of all time.
?Misha? was known for his unpredictability and superb improvisation.
Tal holds the records for the first and second longest unbeaten
streaks in professional chess. There is a lot you can learn from his
attacking masterpieces.
----------------

Long a hero of mine.  His attacking play was unbelievable! Superhuman
I would say.


BillK


From giulio at gmail.com  Mon Nov 30 11:10:37 2020
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2020 12:10:37 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Terasem Colloquium, December 10: Speakers, agenda
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyeChR-wOb3tTbUiuNFRmSEhViW97v_BMkB_KQwzveXwKA@mail.gmail.com>

Terasem Colloquium, December 10: Speakers, agenda

The 2020 Terasem Colloquium will be held on Thursday, December 10,
2020, at 10am EST via Zoom, with Howard Bloom, Giulia Bassani,
Philippe van Nedervelde, Yalda Mousavinia, Gabriel Rothblatt, David
Brin

https://turingchurch.net/terasem-colloquium-december-10-speakers-agenda-64f1ff13136

From sparge at gmail.com  Mon Nov 30 17:53:47 2020
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2020 12:53:47 -0500
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?b?4oCYVGhlIGdhbWUgaGFzIGNoYW5nZWQu4oCZIEFJIHRyaXVt?=
	=?utf-8?q?phs_at_solving_protein_structures?=
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2e5NgYASfYQiCyiLgZ5nmMAL3wZr5W5rnxLynrxpjsdqg@mail.gmail.com>

*https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/11/game-has-changed-ai-triumphs-solving-protein-structures
<https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/11/game-has-changed-ai-triumphs-solving-protein-structures>*





























*Artificial intelligence (AI) has solved one of biology?s grand challenges:
predicting how proteins curl up from a linear chain of amino acids into 3D
shapes that allow them to carry out life?s tasks. Today, leading structural
biologists and organizers of a biennial protein-folding competition
announced the achievement by researchers at DeepMind, a U.K.-based AI
company. They say the DeepMind method will have far-reaching effects, among
them dramatically speeding the creation of new medications.?What the
DeepMind team has managed to achieve is fantastic and will change the
future of structural biology and protein research,? says Janet Thornton,
director emeritus of the European Bioinformatics Institute. ?This is a
50-year-old problem,? adds John Moult, a structural biologist at the
University of Maryland, Shady Grove, and co-founder of the competition,
Critical Assessment of Protein Structure Prediction (CASP). ?I never
thought I?d see this in my lifetime.?The human body uses tens of thousands
of different proteins, each a string of dozens to many hundreds of amino
acids. The order of those amino acids dictates how the myriad pushes and
pulls between them give rise to proteins? complex 3D shapes, which, in
turn, determine how they function. Knowing those shapes helps researchers
devise drugs that can lodge in proteins? pockets and crevices. And being
able to synthesize proteins with a desired structure could speed the
development of enzymes that make biofuels and degrade waste plastic.For
decades, researchers deciphered proteins? 3D structures using experimental
techniques such as x-ray crystallography or cryo?electron microscopy
(cryo-EM). But such methods can take months or years and don?t always work.
Structures have been solved for only about 170,000 of the more than 200
million proteins discovered across life forms.In the 1960s, researchers
realized if they could work out all individual interactions within a
protein?s sequence, they could predict its 3D shape. With hundreds of amino
acids per protein and numerous ways each pair of amino acids can interact,
however, the number of possible structures per sequence was astronomical.
Computational scientists jumped on the problem, but progress was slow.In
1994, Moult and colleagues launched CASP, which takes place every 2 years.
Entrants get amino acid sequences for about 100 proteins whose structures
are not known. Some groups compute a structure for each sequence, while
other groups determine it experimentally. The organizers then compare the
computational predictions with the lab results and give the predictions a
global distance test (GDT) score. Scores above 90 on the zero to 100 scale
are considered on par with experimental methods, Moult says.Even in 1994,
predicted structures for small, simple proteins could match experimental
results. But for larger, challenging proteins, computations? GDT scores
were about 20, ?a complete catastrophe,? says Andrei Lupas, a CASP judge
and evolutionary biologist at the Max Planck Institute for Developmental
Biology. By 2016, competing groups had reached scores of about 40 for the
hardest proteins, mostly by drawing insights from known structures of
proteins that were closely related to the CASP targets.When DeepMind first
competed in 2018, its algorithm, called AlphaFold, relied on this
comparative strategy. But AlphaFold also incorporated a computational
approach called deep learning, in which the software is trained on vast
data troves?in this case, the sequences, structures, and known proteins?and
learns to spot patterns. DeepMind won handily, beating the competition by
an average of 15% on each structure, and winning GDT scores of up to about
60 for the hardest targets.But the predictions were still too coarse to be
useful, says John Jumper, who heads AlphaFold?s development at DeepMind.
?We knew how far we were from biological relevance.? To do better, Jumper
and his colleagues combined deep learning with a ?tension algorithm? that
mimics the way a person might assemble a jigsaw puzzle: first connecting
pieces in small clumps?in this case clusters of amino acids?and then
searching for ways to join the clumps in a larger whole. Working on a
modest, 128-processor computer network, they trained the algorithm on all
170,000 or so known protein structures.And it worked. Across target
proteins in this year?s CASP, AlphaFold achieved a median GDT score of
92.4. For the most challenging proteins, AlphaFold scored a median of 87,
25 points above the next best predictions. It even excelled at solving
structures of proteins that sit wedged in cell membranes, which are central
to many human diseases but notoriously difficult to solve with x-ray
crystallography. Venki Ramakrishnan, a structural biologist at the Medical
Research Council Laboratory of Molecular Biology, calls the result ?a
stunning advance on the protein folding problem.?All of the groups in this
year?s competition improved, Moult says. But with AlphaFold, Lupas says,
?The game has changed.? The organizers even worried DeepMind may have been
cheating somehow. So Lupas set a special challenge: a membrane protein from
a species of archaea, an ancient group of microbes. For 10 years, his
research team tried every trick in the book to get an x-ray crystal
structure of the protein. ?We couldn?t solve it.?But AlphaFold had no
trouble. It returned a detailed image of a three-part protein with two long
helical arms in the middle. The model enabled Lupas and his colleagues to
make sense of their x-ray data; within half an hour, they had fit their
experimental results to AlphaFold?s predicted structure. ?It?s almost
perfect,? Lupas says. ?They could not possibly have cheated on this. I
don?t know how they do it.?As a condition of entering CASP, DeepMind?like
all groups?agreed to reveal sufficient details about its method for other
groups to re-create it. That will be a boon for experimentalists, who will
be able to use accurate structure predictions to make sense of opaque x-ray
and cryo-EM data. It could also enable drug designers to quickly work out
the structure of every protein in new and dangerous pathogens like
SARS-CoV-2, a key step in the hunt for molecules to block them, Moult
says.Still, AlphaFold doesn?t do everything well yet. In the contest, it
faltered noticeably on one protein, an amalgam of 52 small repeating
segments, which distort each others? positions as they assemble. Jumper
says the team now wants to train AlphaFold to solve such structures, as
well as those of complexes of proteins that work together to carry out key
functions in the cell.Even though one grand challenge has fallen, others
will undoubtedly emerge. ?This isn?t the end of something,? Thornton says.
?It?s the beginning of many new things.?*
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201130/fd60e8f7/attachment-0001.htm>

From giulio at gmail.com  Mon Nov 30 18:40:28 2020
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2020 19:40:28 +0100
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?b?4oCYVGhlIGdhbWUgaGFzIGNoYW5nZWQu4oCZIEFJIHRyaXVt?=
	=?utf-8?q?phs_at_solving_protein_structures?=
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2e5NgYASfYQiCyiLgZ5nmMAL3wZr5W5rnxLynrxpjsdqg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM5aL2e5NgYASfYQiCyiLgZ5nmMAL3wZr5W5rnxLynrxpjsdqg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfD0owp-wLY4MDfpJ=LySJ7_1iz=jer20hdiRU=jJn5LQ@mail.gmail.com>

Wow this seems great!
https://deepmind.com/blog/article/alphafold-a-solution-to-a-50-year-old-grand-challenge-in-biology

On 2020. Nov 30., Mon at 18:55, Dave Sill via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> *https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/11/game-has-changed-ai-triumphs-solving-protein-structures
> <https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/11/game-has-changed-ai-triumphs-solving-protein-structures>*
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *Artificial intelligence (AI) has solved one of biology?s grand
> challenges: predicting how proteins curl up from a linear chain of amino
> acids into 3D shapes that allow them to carry out life?s tasks. Today,
> leading structural biologists and organizers of a biennial protein-folding
> competition announced the achievement by researchers at DeepMind, a
> U.K.-based AI company. They say the DeepMind method will have far-reaching
> effects, among them dramatically speeding the creation of new
> medications.?What the DeepMind team has managed to achieve is fantastic and
> will change the future of structural biology and protein research,? says
> Janet Thornton, director emeritus of the European Bioinformatics Institute.
> ?This is a 50-year-old problem,? adds John Moult, a structural biologist at
> the University of Maryland, Shady Grove, and co-founder of the competition,
> Critical Assessment of Protein Structure Prediction (CASP). ?I never
> thought I?d see this in my lifetime.?The human body uses tens of thousands
> of different proteins, each a string of dozens to many hundreds of amino
> acids. The order of those amino acids dictates how the myriad pushes and
> pulls between them give rise to proteins? complex 3D shapes, which, in
> turn, determine how they function. Knowing those shapes helps researchers
> devise drugs that can lodge in proteins? pockets and crevices. And being
> able to synthesize proteins with a desired structure could speed the
> development of enzymes that make biofuels and degrade waste plastic.For
> decades, researchers deciphered proteins? 3D structures using experimental
> techniques such as x-ray crystallography or cryo?electron microscopy
> (cryo-EM). But such methods can take months or years and don?t always work.
> Structures have been solved for only about 170,000 of the more than 200
> million proteins discovered across life forms.In the 1960s, researchers
> realized if they could work out all individual interactions within a
> protein?s sequence, they could predict its 3D shape. With hundreds of amino
> acids per protein and numerous ways each pair of amino acids can interact,
> however, the number of possible structures per sequence was astronomical.
> Computational scientists jumped on the problem, but progress was slow.In
> 1994, Moult and colleagues launched CASP, which takes place every 2 years.
> Entrants get amino acid sequences for about 100 proteins whose structures
> are not known. Some groups compute a structure for each sequence, while
> other groups determine it experimentally. The organizers then compare the
> computational predictions with the lab results and give the predictions a
> global distance test (GDT) score. Scores above 90 on the zero to 100 scale
> are considered on par with experimental methods, Moult says.Even in 1994,
> predicted structures for small, simple proteins could match experimental
> results. But for larger, challenging proteins, computations? GDT scores
> were about 20, ?a complete catastrophe,? says Andrei Lupas, a CASP judge
> and evolutionary biologist at the Max Planck Institute for Developmental
> Biology. By 2016, competing groups had reached scores of about 40 for the
> hardest proteins, mostly by drawing insights from known structures of
> proteins that were closely related to the CASP targets.When DeepMind first
> competed in 2018, its algorithm, called AlphaFold, relied on this
> comparative strategy. But AlphaFold also incorporated a computational
> approach called deep learning, in which the software is trained on vast
> data troves?in this case, the sequences, structures, and known proteins?and
> learns to spot patterns. DeepMind won handily, beating the competition by
> an average of 15% on each structure, and winning GDT scores of up to about
> 60 for the hardest targets.But the predictions were still too coarse to be
> useful, says John Jumper, who heads AlphaFold?s development at DeepMind.
> ?We knew how far we were from biological relevance.? To do better, Jumper
> and his colleagues combined deep learning with a ?tension algorithm? that
> mimics the way a person might assemble a jigsaw puzzle: first connecting
> pieces in small clumps?in this case clusters of amino acids?and then
> searching for ways to join the clumps in a larger whole. Working on a
> modest, 128-processor computer network, they trained the algorithm on all
> 170,000 or so known protein structures.And it worked. Across target
> proteins in this year?s CASP, AlphaFold achieved a median GDT score of
> 92.4. For the most challenging proteins, AlphaFold scored a median of 87,
> 25 points above the next best predictions. It even excelled at solving
> structures of proteins that sit wedged in cell membranes, which are central
> to many human diseases but notoriously difficult to solve with x-ray
> crystallography. Venki Ramakrishnan, a structural biologist at the Medical
> Research Council Laboratory of Molecular Biology, calls the result ?a
> stunning advance on the protein folding problem.?All of the groups in this
> year?s competition improved, Moult says. But with AlphaFold, Lupas says,
> ?The game has changed.? The organizers even worried DeepMind may have been
> cheating somehow. So Lupas set a special challenge: a membrane protein from
> a species of archaea, an ancient group of microbes. For 10 years, his
> research team tried every trick in the book to get an x-ray crystal
> structure of the protein. ?We couldn?t solve it.?But AlphaFold had no
> trouble. It returned a detailed image of a three-part protein with two long
> helical arms in the middle. The model enabled Lupas and his colleagues to
> make sense of their x-ray data; within half an hour, they had fit their
> experimental results to AlphaFold?s predicted structure. ?It?s almost
> perfect,? Lupas says. ?They could not possibly have cheated on this. I
> don?t know how they do it.?As a condition of entering CASP, DeepMind?like
> all groups?agreed to reveal sufficient details about its method for other
> groups to re-create it. That will be a boon for experimentalists, who will
> be able to use accurate structure predictions to make sense of opaque x-ray
> and cryo-EM data. It could also enable drug designers to quickly work out
> the structure of every protein in new and dangerous pathogens like
> SARS-CoV-2, a key step in the hunt for molecules to block them, Moult
> says.Still, AlphaFold doesn?t do everything well yet. In the contest, it
> faltered noticeably on one protein, an amalgam of 52 small repeating
> segments, which distort each others? positions as they assemble. Jumper
> says the team now wants to train AlphaFold to solve such structures, as
> well as those of complexes of proteins that work together to carry out key
> functions in the cell.Even though one grand challenge has fallen, others
> will undoubtedly emerge. ?This isn?t the end of something,? Thornton says.
> ?It?s the beginning of many new things.?*
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20201130/e5e75368/attachment.htm>