From ExiMod at protonmail.com Tue Aug 3 22:07:10 2021 From: ExiMod at protonmail.com (ExiMod) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2021 22:07:10 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Exi-Chat Restored now! Message-ID: Hi Test Post to check! Looks like we're live again! Best wishes, ExiMod Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com/) Secure Email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 3 22:15:00 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2021 15:15:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi-Chat Restored now! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004801d788b5$00cea600$026bf200$@rainier66.com> Thanks ExiMod. Thanks Max. Life? is? goooooood? This is the second miracle this week! Earlier the image of the virgin was given to a small group of campers. Do you doubters require proof? spike From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of ExiMod via extropy-chat Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2021 3:07 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: ExiMod Subject: [ExI] Exi-Chat Restored now! Hi Test Post to check! Looks like we're live again! Best wishes, ExiMod Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 3 22:21:02 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2021 17:21:02 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Exi-Chat Restored now! In-Reply-To: <004801d788b5$00cea600$026bf200$@rainier66.com> References: <004801d788b5$00cea600$026bf200$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Yes, we beg you to release the miracle image so we can prostrate ourselves in front of our laptops. bill w On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 5:16 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Thanks ExiMod. Thanks Max. Life? is? goooooood? > > > > This is the second miracle this week! Earlier the image of the virgin was > given to a small group of campers. Do you doubters require proof? > > > > spike > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *ExiMod via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 3, 2021 3:07 PM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* ExiMod > *Subject:* [ExI] Exi-Chat Restored now! > > > > Hi > > > > Test Post to check! > > Looks like we're live again! > > > > Best wishes, ExiMod > > > > Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 3 22:23:41 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2021 15:23:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi-Chat Restored now! In-Reply-To: <004801d788b5$00cea600$026bf200$@rainier66.com> References: <004801d788b5$00cea600$026bf200$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005401d788b6$374cbb80$a5e63280$@rainier66.com> >>? Do you doubters require proof? >?Yes. Oh ye faithless ones! Behold! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 15648 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 3 22:32:06 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2021 15:32:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi-Chat Restored now! In-Reply-To: References: <004801d788b5$00cea600$026bf200$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006301d788b7$640cc470$2c264d50$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Exi-Chat Restored now! >Yes, we beg you to release the miracle image so we can prostrate ourselves in front of our laptops. bill w Billw, only the righteous can see her in that vegetable. Otherwise, one is insufficiently repently. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 3 22:37:29 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2021 17:37:29 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Exi-Chat Restored now! In-Reply-To: <006301d788b7$640cc470$2c264d50$@rainier66.com> References: <004801d788b5$00cea600$026bf200$@rainier66.com> <006301d788b7$640cc470$2c264d50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, it looks more like Andy Rooney to me. bill w On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 5:34 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Exi-Chat Restored now! > > > > >Yes, we beg you to release the miracle image so we can prostrate > ourselves in front of our laptops. bill w > > > > > > Billw, only the righteous can see her in that vegetable. Otherwise, one > is insufficiently repently. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 3 22:56:26 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2021 15:56:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi-Chat Restored now! In-Reply-To: References: <004801d788b5$00cea600$026bf200$@rainier66.com> <006301d788b7$640cc470$2c264d50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007f01d788ba$ca5ff5a0$5f1fe0e0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Exi-Chat Restored now! >?Spike, it looks more like Andy Rooney to me. bill w Heretic! This image of her was from before she had a lotta splainin to do to Joe. In any case, only the partially righteous see her as looking like Andy Rooney, so I suppose that is one of those good news/bad news things. spike ps its good to be back. Missed the hell outta you heretics. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 4 01:02:29 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2021 18:02:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] selling domain name real estate Message-ID: <001401d788cc$66ad2c50$340784f0$@rainier66.com> Back in the olden days when the internet was taking off, some had the insight to buy and hold domains with their names. Common names are valuable real estate today. On a camping trip recently I met the guy who owns Tom-Johnson.com. His name is Tom Johnson. A remarkable coincidence it is that he should own Tom-Johnson.com. He is near retirement and would part with that name for some cash (the domain name (not his own name (the sale would be conditional upon his being able to stay Tom Johnson himself.))) I don?t know how to auction valuable domain names. Are there internet hipsters among us who know from selling domain names? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jasonresch at gmail.com Wed Aug 4 10:32:00 2021 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 05:32:00 -0500 Subject: [ExI] selling domain name real estate In-Reply-To: <001401d788cc$66ad2c50$340784f0$@rainier66.com> References: <001401d788cc$66ad2c50$340784f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 8:03 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > Back in the olden days when the internet was taking off, some had the > insight to buy and hold domains with their names. Common names are > valuable real estate today. > > > > On a camping trip recently I met the guy who owns Tom-Johnson.com. His > name is Tom Johnson. A remarkable coincidence it is that he should own > Tom-Johnson.com. He is near retirement and would part with that name for > some cash (the domain name (not his own name (the sale would be conditional > upon his being able to stay Tom Johnson himself.))) > > > > I don?t know how to auction valuable domain names. Are there internet > hipsters among us who know from selling domain names? > > > I don't know what the best site is for this the best site, but there are auctions for domains hosted by godaddy and ebay: https://auctions.godaddy.com/ https://www.ebay.com/b/Sell-Domain/3767/bn_7023258241 This article lists 15 other sites for listing domains for sale: https://medium.com/@daica85/top-15-places-to-sell-your-domain-names-easily-and-quickly-d2da1d695076 Perhaps the best place to advertise would be on the homepage of the domain itself, since any stray visitors to that domain might be interested in purchasing it. Jason -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 4 12:44:10 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 07:44:10 -0500 Subject: [ExI] selling domain name real estate In-Reply-To: References: <001401d788cc$66ad2c50$340784f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I remember the early days of the internet. Squatting on domain names was common. One man got business.com and squatted on it until he got 7 million dollars for it. bill w On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 5:34 AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 8:03 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> Back in the olden days when the internet was taking off, some had the >> insight to buy and hold domains with their names. Common names are >> valuable real estate today. >> >> >> >> On a camping trip recently I met the guy who owns Tom-Johnson.com. His >> name is Tom Johnson. A remarkable coincidence it is that he should own >> Tom-Johnson.com. He is near retirement and would part with that name for >> some cash (the domain name (not his own name (the sale would be conditional >> upon his being able to stay Tom Johnson himself.))) >> >> >> >> I don?t know how to auction valuable domain names. Are there internet >> hipsters among us who know from selling domain names? >> >> >> > > I don't know what the best site is for this the best site, but there are > auctions for domains hosted by godaddy and ebay: > > https://auctions.godaddy.com/ > https://www.ebay.com/b/Sell-Domain/3767/bn_7023258241 > > This article lists 15 other sites for listing domains for sale: > https://medium.com/@daica85/top-15-places-to-sell-your-domain-names-easily-and-quickly-d2da1d695076 > > Perhaps the best place to advertise would be on the homepage of the domain > itself, since any stray visitors to that domain might be interested in > purchasing it. > > Jason > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Aug 5 06:19:38 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 23:19:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi-Chat Restored now! In-Reply-To: <007f01d788ba$ca5ff5a0$5f1fe0e0$@rainier66.com> References: <004801d788b5$00cea600$026bf200$@rainier66.com> <006301d788b7$640cc470$2c264d50$@rainier66.com> <007f01d788ba$ca5ff5a0$5f1fe0e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: "Warp power has been restored!" I missed this place and the usual suspects... : ) On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 3:58 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Exi-Chat Restored now! > > > > > > >?Spike, it looks more like Andy Rooney to me. bill w > > > > Heretic! > > > > This image of her was from before she had a lotta splainin to do to Joe. > In any case, only the partially righteous see her as looking like Andy > Rooney, so I suppose that is one of those good news/bad news things. > > > > spike > > > > ps its good to be back. Missed the hell outta you heretics. > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Aug 5 06:30:40 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 23:30:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] dogs lie? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: William Flynn Wallace wrote: "I appreciate your effort to write me a little note. Virtually all of my old friends are dead - all of them. Several were older but some died way too young. " I recently lost a friend by the name of Mike Duckette, who was like an uncle to me, and one of the most friendly and caring human beings I have ever known. He was a big gregarious guy who was sort of like having Santa Claus as a pal. The man had married the love of his life, who he had two children with, only to lose her to cancer in 1995. And then a few years later he was seriously injured when he physically restrained a very large special needs student in his classroom that had gone berserk for some reason. He could not work as a teacher after his injury and so he went on disability. Despite recurring pain, he said it was ultimately a blessing because he loved to read and pursue his multitude of hobbies, and now he had the time for it. He was a man that was alien to the concept of "being bored!" Lol On Mondays he would meet at a retired friend's house to play tabletop roleplaying games, and then on Thursday they would meet again to watch movies and television series on the biggest wide screen tv I have ever seen in a private home. I arranged my work schedule so that I could join them on Thursday as much as I could. This was a group of about six guys, with Mike as the ringleader. Our host was a gentleman by the name of Tom Perry, who has an entire wall of awards for his engineering achievements in the satellite telecommunications field. He is one of the few people I know who could give Spike a run for his engineering money! Lol I severely regret not having stayed in touch with Mike when I moved to the Philippines. but I was concerned that reaching out to him would make me extra homesick. But my significant other implored me to call him up, knowing what he meant to me, and so I did, and we spoke for about two hours catching up. It felt great and he gave me lots of good advice about getting along with my new family. I thought to myself how I would definitely call him up at least once a month from then on, but then only two weeks later he got very sick and was taken to the hospital where he was unconscious much of the time. A month later he was gone. I was in shock at the news because he had seemed so alive only a few weeks earlier, and he had beaten the odds before, with previous illnesses. My friends and I thought of Mike as somehow able to out maneuver the Grim Reaper, but that was not to be. I just wish he had lived another two or three years to see developments in my life. A bad decision on Mike's part had largely sealed his fate. He has been very overweight and had a gastric bypass, which had resulted in an infection. But he had another medical procedure scheduled and so he had that done and procrastinated seeing a doctor about the symptoms which were signs of infection. He didn't think his health was under serious threat from it, but that turned out to be a fatal act of procrastination. The doctors said the two weeks in which he did not promptly act probably cost him his life. I think in a low key way Mike may have had a death wish after his wife died at a fairly young age from cancer. He ate whatever he pleased and became grossly overweight, though he carried it well being a big man. And he let his home become a mess on a scale I have not even seen in the Philippines! Lol But through it all he had a band of close friends, an autistic son who lived with him (they would make extra money doing security guard work in their custom van with non-police lights) and a local science fiction fandom that was sort of like extended family. I'd like to think that there is an afterlife and that Mike and his wife have reunited. Mike had been an atheist until his final years when he said he had reconsidered things. Cryonics of course could not be an option because he was not wealthy and no company would ever possibly insure him, considering his health problems. My friends back home say Mikey, Mike's son is inconsolable, but I hope in time that he can find some level of peace. John On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 6:54 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > If it suits you to believe it, then fine. I think that it is probable > that the dog heard something outside that you didn't hear. But it would > not surprise me much if you were right. > > I appreciate your effort to write me a little note. Virtually all of my > old friends are dead - all of them. Several were older but some died way > too young. > > You said you were Eeyore and your wife was Tigger, or is that backwards? > > I hope you are in a place easily escaped. > > Rain, rain, and more rain. Extreme weather everywhere. The BRitish Open > (golf) was played in beautiful weather, totally uncharacteristic of > Sandwich, England, where clouds, wind and rain are typical. Can extreme > weather be great? bill w > > On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 6:05 PM Gregory Jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> on a phone here do pardon misspellings and lcs. >> >> witnessed two small housedogs rassling and tussling. both dogs like to >> bark at pssers by. in the rassling match dog b was clearly getting the >> worst at the paws of dog a. >> >> suddenly dog b alerted, jumped up and began ferociously barking out the >> window, even tho no one was there. dog a immediately abandoned the >> rassling match and jumped to the window to see what marvelous barkage had >> come inti view. as dog a looked about in confusion, dog b jumped dog a, >> with the new advatage. >> >> did i witness a dog make a devious strategy? did i see one dog lie to >> the other? then take advantage of it? i have always thought of dogs as >> being such honest beasts. >> >> spike >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Aug 5 06:33:28 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 23:33:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] American Rocketry Challenge sees Portland school take 2021 championship Message-ID: "A Portland-area high school came out on top in a new "distributed" version of this year's American Rocketry Challenge that was optimized for pandemic safety. Oregon Episcopal School received $20,000 for coming within one foot and 6.7 feet (2 meters) of a specified altitude in two flights, putting it best among 100 national finalists. As a first-time finalist, the school also received $2,500 for posting the best results among the rookies, and an additional $1,000 given to each finalist participant for placing best in their distributed launch site ? bringing the total haul close to $25,000. To qualify for the winner's circle, participating finalist teams had to get as close as they could to 775 feet (236 m) within 39 to 42 seconds on their first flight, and 825 feet (nearly 252 m) within 41 to 44 seconds on their second flight, according to competition rules . (The rocket also had minimum weight, length and motor qualifications, among other things.)" "Weinstein ? who also will graduate in 2022 ? said the 10 team students had a range of skills, but most of all OES was working to recruit people who were willing to learn the various competencies today's rocket engineer requires, including fuels, materials, computer-assisted design and computer programming. The challenge, he added, takes the theoretical work of physics studied in the classroom "into something that you're actually designing, and may or may not work. I think that's really cool for people to see the skills that they've been learning applied to a real-world problem, and that gets them excited about learning more." https://www.space.com/american-rocketry-challenge-2021-championship -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Aug 5 06:35:52 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 23:35:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Watch robots make pizzas from start to finish at an automated pizzeria Message-ID: I remember the discussion we had here about fast food restaurant automation, and how it was the holy grail of that industry. Spike, what do you think? https://singularityhub.com/2021/07/14/watch-robots-make-pizzas-from-start-to-finish-at-an-automated-pizzeria/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 4 16:10:49 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 09:10:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Watch robots make pizzas from start to finish at an automated pizzeria In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007e01d7894b$4b1a8260$e14f8720$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of John Grigg via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Watch robots make pizzas from start to finish at an automated pizzeria >?I remember the discussion we had here about fast food restaurant automation, and how it was the holy grail of that industry. Spike, what do you think? https://singularityhub.com/2021/07/14/watch-robots-make-pizzas-from-start-to-finish-at-an-automated-pizzeria/ Hi John thanks. I heard of Zume Pizza but never did go over there to check it out. The pizza machine can make pizzas faster than customers can order them, which suggests one?s capital is better spent by making the pizzas as fast as the machine can go, then wrapping them, putting them into a freezer and selling them to grocery chains or as bake-at-home, which is what they eventually did (that?s what I heard, never followed up on it.) Regarding robots making fast food items: that problem isn?t all that difficult to solve from the robotics POV. It isn?t nearly as hard as self-driving cars and plenty of the medical robot stuff that has been solved. The design pressure in fast food robots is toward minimizing capital costs and maintenance costs, rather than maximizing reliability. The covid shutdowns have forced upon us some realizations that plenty of us knew about but tried to ignore. Recall John about 20 yrs ago when Bill Joy published the article in Wired called ?Why the Future Doesn?t Need Us? and the stir it created at the time. Well? two decades have passed, and he was right on with so much in that article. It is time to review that from our perspective, as well as Kurzweil?s The Singularity is Near. Before I say more on either of those, do let us recognize that we damn well can automate most low-end jobs, even while we still need to employ low-end people. Restaurant cooks were traditional ways to do that, but since covid I noticed something interesting. There was continued demand for someone else to fix food, and do it quickly. Fast food places with drive-thru windows prospered the whole time. Look what happened: the most popular fast food places discovered their business model not only works fine with drive-thru only, it works better than paying proles to keep a dining room clean. If people are working the kitchen, out of sight, you don?t need to hire the young and handsome, anyone will do. They don?t need to be nice, hell they don?t even need to be non-felons. You can hire paroled rapists and murderers to run a machine, and they are cheaper than non-felons. What is he going to do? Run off with a fry cooker on his back? One of my favorites, Chick-fil-a, figured out how to run a two-lane drive thru with no dining room, and they are prospering. Restaurants are allowed to open in this county, but plenty of the drive-thru places have quietly opted to not. Apologies John, I realized I wandered far from your original comment on robots making pizza, but how hard is it to visualize ordering from a kiosk which is speech-recognition-enabled, the food being made by machines entirely, and handed out a window by a robot arm? That food is likely cleaner and safer than food prepared by desperately poor human paroled murders and rapists, because there are few if any bio-units present in the kitchen. Well then, OK. Bill Joy was right: the future really doesn?t need us. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 4 16:24:24 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 09:24:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] portable toilets, was: RE: Watch robots make pizzas from start to finish at an automated pizzeria Message-ID: <009901d7894d$3093f910$91bbeb30$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Sent: Wednesday, August 4, 2021 9:11 AM To: 'ExI chat list' Cc: 'Cc:' Subject: RE: [ExI] Watch robots make pizzas from start to finish at an automated pizzeria ?> On Behalf Of John Grigg via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Watch robots make pizzas from start to finish at an automated pizzeria >?One of my favorites, Chick-fil-a, figured out how to run a two-lane drive thru with no dining room, and they are prospering. Restaurants are allowed to open in this county, but plenty of the drive-thru places have quietly opted to not? spike Clarification: they are allowed to open their dining rooms. Plenty of the classic counter-service places and fast fooders opted to keep their drive-thru open but only open their dining room at peak hours if at all. I see the local McDonalds still hasn?t opened its dining room but they have been selling burgers as fast as they can throw the stuff out the window. Another observation: many public restrooms are now unavailable. Fast food restaurants were always available for that previously, but plenty of them are now closed to the public, as well as gas station restrooms (they don?t make any additional money from having those, but there is cost and liability in having them open.) Same with public parks: homeless people move into them. Result: I can easily imagine new demand for a car with a kind of emergency toilet. Before you dismiss the notion as absurd, note the crossover design of plenty of modern cars, and use your imagination just a bit. An emergency toilet doesn?t need to contain water. https://www.amazon.com/Hike-Crew-Advanced-Portable-Outdoor/dp/B07LCTKQKB/ref=asc_df_B07LCTKQKB/?tag=hyprod-20 &linkCode=df0&hvadid=309802514774&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=4696917983680559600&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9032144&hvtargid=pla-625485570885&psc=1 Think about it. Use your imagination. Prediction: within a year or two, some new car models, mini-vans and crossovers, will offer an option of a built-in dry toilet or a way to mount an aftermarket unit. If it happens, remember you heard it first right here. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Wed Aug 4 17:07:03 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 18:07:03 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Test In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just a test, because my previous post to the list got bounced. Please ignore. Ben From atymes at gmail.com Wed Aug 4 17:07:39 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 10:07:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] portable toilets, was: RE: Watch robots make pizzas from start to finish at an automated pizzeria In-Reply-To: <009901d7894d$3093f910$91bbeb30$@rainier66.com> References: <009901d7894d$3093f910$91bbeb30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 9:26 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Same with public parks: homeless people move into them. > And get moved out. I once again propose a law that the homeless must accept shelter if available (if it meets certain requirements, the lack of which are common reasons to avoid shelter, such as protection from abuse), and if they refuse, are automatically candidates for confinement to mental health facilities until such time as they will accept shelter (that meets said requirements). Paired with this law would be requirements for local governments to provide and maintain shelter (with said requirements) based on measured need within their locality (not some abstract formula, but based on the measured number of homeless in that area); if they fail, their budgets can be reallocated to fulfill this mandate at the direction of the state and/or federal government. > Result: I can easily imagine new demand for a car with a kind of emergency > toilet. > In most cases, this is also known as an RV. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Aug 4 17:17:55 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 10:17:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Watch robots make pizzas from start to finish at an automated pizzeria In-Reply-To: <007e01d7894b$4b1a8260$e14f8720$@rainier66.com> References: <007e01d7894b$4b1a8260$e14f8720$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 9:12 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I heard of Zume Pizza but never did go over there to check it out. > I know their VP of Engineering, but I haven't (yet) had a reason to follow up with him since he went to Zume. You can hire paroled rapists and murderers to run a machine, and they are > cheaper than non-felons. What is he going to do? Run off with a fry > cooker on his back? > Poison very specific pizzas, if they know where the pizzas are going. That tends not to be the case, and is rare anyway. > Apologies John, I realized I wandered far from your original comment on > robots making pizza, but how hard is it to visualize ordering from a kiosk > which is speech-recognition-enabled, the food being made by machines > entirely, and handed out a window by a robot arm? > Pre-pandemic, the local McDonalds were experimenting with kiosks for order entry and payment - touchscreen rather than voice activated, and you still had to go to the human-operated counter to actually get your food (and if you were paying in cash). These got shut down with the rest of the dining room, and remained offline over health worries once one could go back inside. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 4 17:19:44 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 12:19:44 -0500 Subject: [ExI] portable toilets, was: RE: Watch robots make pizzas from start to finish at an automated pizzeria In-Reply-To: References: <009901d7894d$3093f910$91bbeb30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: googled sf homeless - 8000. I doubt they have the space. And putting someone in a mental facility is very legally complicated. Probably each case would have to go before a judge - your solution is just not feasible. bill w On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 12:15 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 9:26 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Same with public parks: homeless people move into them. >> > > And get moved out. > > I once again propose a law that the homeless must accept shelter if > available (if it meets certain requirements, the lack of which are common > reasons to avoid shelter, such as protection from abuse), and if they > refuse, are automatically candidates for confinement to mental health > facilities until such time as they will accept shelter (that meets said > requirements). Paired with this law would be requirements for local > governments to provide and maintain shelter (with said requirements) based > on measured need within their locality (not some abstract formula, but > based on the measured number of homeless in that area); if they fail, their > budgets can be reallocated to fulfill this mandate at the direction of the > state and/or federal government. > > >> Result: I can easily imagine new demand for a car with a kind of >> emergency toilet. >> > > In most cases, this is also known as an RV. > >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 4 17:20:04 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 10:20:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] portable toilets, was: RE: Watch robots make pizzas from start to finish at an automated pizzeria In-Reply-To: <009901d7894d$3093f910$91bbeb30$@rainier66.com> References: <009901d7894d$3093f910$91bbeb30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005201d78954$f7d29430$e777bc90$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of spike jones via extropy-chat ? >?Another observation: many public restrooms are now unavailable?Result: I can easily imagine new demand for a car with a kind of emergency toilet. >? An emergency toilet doesn?t need to contain water. https://www.amazon.com/Hike-Crew-Advanced-Portable-Outdoor/dp/B07LCTKQKB/ref=asc_df_B07LCTKQKB/?tag=hyprod-20 &linkCode=df0&hvadid=309802514774&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=4696917983680559600&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9032144&hvtargid=pla-625485570885&psc=1 ? >?Prediction: within a year or two, some new car models, mini-vans and crossovers, will offer an option of a built-in dry toilet or a way to mount an aftermarket unit. If it happens, remember you heard it first right here?spike Do let me run with that ball just a bit more pls. The Honda Odyssey and Dodge Grand Caravan are two examples of minivan crossovers capable of carrying a 4x8 sheet of plywood (above the wheel wells I imagine (anyone here know?)) but still get good fuel economy on the freeway. With that size platform, one can imagine a rig with a roll-up foam pad suitable for over-nighting or even for when one with sleep irregularities gets drowsy during the day. One could rig up a dry-toilet which is really just a sophisticated version of a kitty litterbox, and even a little propane-fired refrigerator if you wanted to get a little carried away with the notion, a propane camp stove, and you are set to go on a road trip a little too long for a one-day, such as one that I have more frequently. An elderly relative lives alone but needs help with some things, home repairs, some medical procedures and such. His door is 920 miles from mine, which is too far to make in a straight-thru but not really long enough to justify hauling the camper. I don?t like staying in hotels (any hotel which would take me as a guest I wouldn?t want to stay there) but I do like fast-food, oh do I love fast food. I am a connoisseur of fine epicurean viands carelessly hurled out windows in every little town. Love it. I am lucky that way. I would buy a minimalist overnighter for that trip. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 4 17:34:11 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 10:34:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] portable toilets, was: RE: Watch robots make pizzas from start to finish at an automated pizzeria In-Reply-To: References: <009901d7894d$3093f910$91bbeb30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <000c01d78956$f025c980$d0715c80$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] portable toilets, was: RE: Watch robots make pizzas from start to finish at an automated pizzeria On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 9:26 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: Same with public parks: homeless people move into them. And get moved out. >?I once again propose a law that the homeless must accept shelter if available (if it meets certain requirements, the lack of which are common reasons to avoid shelter, such as protection from abuse), and if they refuse, are automatically candidates for confinement to mental health facilities until such time as they will accept shelter (that meets said requirements)? Adrian there is no legal structure will would support putting homeless shelter eschewers into a mental facility. The California state supreme court decided this back in the 70s. People are sometimes travelling on foot or bicycle long distances. They aren?t crazy. They aren?t even necessarily on dope (granted those are two common reasons they are out there.) Currently we have skerjillions of them camping along freeways (I went thru Portland last week (oh mercy.)) I see no easy or clean solutions happening anytime soon. >?Paired with this law would be requirements for local governments to provide and maintain shelter (with said requirements)? The county bought and converted a local hotel for homeless. It was filled within minutes. It didn?t put even a dent in the homeless problem around here, not a noticeable one. ? >>?Result: I can easily imagine new demand for a car with a kind of emergency toilet. >?In most cases, this is also known as an RV?. Ja I am looking at a subset of an RV. Usually those built that way are made from full-sized vans. I am thinking of moving that concept down a notch so that the vehicle is a practical daily commuter while being OK for overnighting along freeways, places with Walmarts and such. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Aug 4 17:46:27 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 10:46:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] portable toilets, was: RE: Watch robots make pizzas from start to finish at an automated pizzeria In-Reply-To: References: <009901d7894d$3093f910$91bbeb30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 10:27 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > googled sf homeless - 8000. I doubt they have the space. > They don't have the buildings, yes. Buildings can be constructed. There are places where a high-rise to contain 8,000 could be built within SF, especially if the requirement is just "within city limits" thus permitting use of the cheapest (within SF) real estate. > And putting someone in a mental facility is very legally complicated. > Probably each case would have to go before a judge - your solution is just > not feasible. > https://www.courts.ca.gov/documents/2020-Court-Statistics-Report.pdf suggests this would not be a substantial increase in caseload, especially after the initial year or so to handle existing cases. Now, hiring the caseworkers to tend to all these cases - and keep them free of abuse, rather than just warehousing - would be a budget drag. Thus why my proposal allows the local government's budget to be reallocated for them: they don't get to make the choice not to adequately fund these (which many places would if allowed - as happens today). This would directly result in a reduction of law enforcement labor - the police are usually the ones who have to deal with the homeless today, and those are not the safest encounters (resulting in higher medical costs on average than, say, a typical traffic stop) - so this could be partially offset with a reduced law enforcement budget. (Which is allegedly what the "defund the police" crowd really intends.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Aug 4 18:06:08 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 11:06:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] portable toilets, was: RE: Watch robots make pizzas from start to finish at an automated pizzeria In-Reply-To: <000c01d78956$f025c980$d0715c80$@rainier66.com> References: <009901d7894d$3093f910$91bbeb30$@rainier66.com> <000c01d78956$f025c980$d0715c80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 10:38 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Adrian there is no legal structure will would support putting homeless > shelter eschewers into a mental facility. > Right. I am proposing to create one. People are sometimes travelling on foot or bicycle long distances. They > aren?t crazy. > Temporary camping would be one of the exceptions. If you're just there for the night, and will be gone the next night, letting you do just that (maybe with a cop confirming your plans) is easier than bringing you in. > The county bought and converted a local hotel for homeless. It was filled > within minutes. It didn?t put even a dent in the homeless problem around > here, not a noticeable one. > Yep. Providing sufficient shelter is a big enough financial burden that most local governments would prefer not to do it - thus the need to compel it to be done. Whether the funding should come from local, state, or federal government is something that can be debated. But it needs to come from somewhere. This does not need some massive arcology, but just a set of \high rises somewhere in undeveloped land, including a transit spur to facilitate getting to employment (many of these residents, if employed at all, will work jobs not suitable for telecommuting). A 10,000 person capacity site at some location within Santa Clara County would approximately solve said county's current homeless issue (until more come by, but housing issues are eternally a problem in any area experiencing population growth - all that is needed at any one time is a solution for the population at that time; more housing can be built when more people come). https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/business/growth-development/story/2021-05-14/navy-favors-massive-project-with-10k-housing-units-on-navwar-site outlines a similar-magnitude housing proposal. Ja I am looking at a subset of an RV. Usually those built that way are > made from full-sized vans. I am thinking of moving that concept down a > notch so that the vehicle is a practical daily commuter while being OK for > overnighting along freeways, places with Walmarts and such. > >From what I hear, the smallest RVs fit your description. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 4 19:11:08 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 12:11:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] portable toilets, was: RE: Watch robots make pizzas from start to finish at an automated pizzeria In-Reply-To: References: <009901d7894d$3093f910$91bbeb30$@rainier66.com> <000c01d78956$f025c980$d0715c80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003601d78964$7bd1f050$7375d0f0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Sent: Wednesday, August 4, 2021 11:06 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: Adrian Tymes Subject: Re: [ExI] portable toilets, was: RE: Watch robots make pizzas from start to finish at an automated pizzeria On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 10:38 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: Adrian there is no legal structure will would support putting homeless shelter eschewers into a mental facility. >?Right. I am proposing to create one. The problem that just won?t go away is that cities and counties can (at best) squeeze the urban campers out to places along the sound walls of interstate freeways. That makes the encampments primarily the state government?s jurisdiction. I have a hard time imagining the state of California creating amendments to its constitution which would solve that problem. They will sooner arrange one-way bus tickets to the former tourist mecca of Venice Beach (RIP.) Pressuring the home-free onto the interstate introduces a new risk: urban campers will go up on pedestrian overpasses and hurl stuff (including themselves) at drivers below. This can be partially solved by building fence guards: https://www.google.com/search?q=fence+guards+for+overpass &tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=07hHC7QbVYl0IM%252CD9nhFTVhCXjT1M%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kSKONI0Lr2AK5WkN6M4OOHwv_r26g&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwir98PtgJjyAhXGup4KHdK-BP8Q9QF6BAgSEAE#imgrc=07hHC7QbVYl0IM The finer mesh will cause the malicious or mentally compromised actors to resort to smaller projectiles perhaps, steel balls, pebbles, enough to shatter windshields but insufficient to cause fatalities. The problem with creating a homeless high-rise in SF (or anywhere else in California) is that environmentalists and Native Americans have grown quite highly skilled in finding ways to prevent buildings from going into place without huge sums of money changing hands. Businesses have that. Homeless advocacy groups do not. Governments will not. It is easily foreseeable that the homeless problem will continue to spiral out of control until previously-inconceivable solutions will be pressed into service. An example of this will be turning places like Darwin California into relocation destinations for those found in urban camping situations. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Aug 4 19:34:57 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 12:34:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] portable toilets, was: RE: Watch robots make pizzas from start to finish at an automated pizzeria In-Reply-To: <003601d78964$7bd1f050$7375d0f0$@rainier66.com> References: <009901d7894d$3093f910$91bbeb30$@rainier66.com> <000c01d78956$f025c980$d0715c80$@rainier66.com> <003601d78964$7bd1f050$7375d0f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 12:12 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The problem with creating a homeless high-rise in SF (or anywhere else in > California) is that environmentalists and Native Americans have grown quite > highly skilled in finding ways to prevent buildings from going into place > without huge sums of money changing hands. Businesses have that. Homeless > advocacy groups do not. Governments will not. > Governments do - and they can also craft legislation to thwart said interference. See certain legislative proposals from California's YIMBY groups. > It is easily foreseeable that the homeless problem will continue to spiral > out of control until previously-inconceivable solutions will be pressed > into service. An example of this will be turning places like Darwin > California into relocation destinations for those found in urban camping > situations. > Indeed. One could imagine a million-person housing unit (nearly an arcology), part of which is set aside for the otherwise-homeless. There are sites within Santa Clara County where such could be built - along with dedicated commuter rail, on the assumption (and to try to encourage the situation) that the majority of residents will take mass transit if they do not work in (or within walking distance of) the housing unit. Also included would be a large school (or possibly multiple), a hospital, and a police station. With a million people living there (even if most may be poor), commercial support such as a grocery store would inevitably pop up next door. Doubtless, some of the pseudo-environmentalists you mention would have fits at the mere thought of a million person housing unit, plus support buildings, anywhere in California. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 4 19:49:14 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 14:49:14 -0500 Subject: [ExI] portable toilets, was: RE: Watch robots make pizzas from start to finish at an automated pizzeria In-Reply-To: References: <009901d7894d$3093f910$91bbeb30$@rainier66.com> <000c01d78956$f025c980$d0715c80$@rainier66.com> <003601d78964$7bd1f050$7375d0f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Don't like to be a cynic, but if you build housing for the homeless it will fill up immediately and more people will come from all over. I am reminded of schools that were too small before they were completed. "Let's all go to Santa Clara county - free housing, free food........" Is there anything to stop this from happening? The only way I see anything like this happening is for it to be done on the federal level. They can print as much money as is needed. bill w On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 2:37 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 12:12 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> The problem with creating a homeless high-rise in SF (or anywhere else in >> California) is that environmentalists and Native Americans have grown quite >> highly skilled in finding ways to prevent buildings from going into place >> without huge sums of money changing hands. Businesses have that. Homeless >> advocacy groups do not. Governments will not. >> > > Governments do - and they can also craft legislation to thwart said > interference. See certain legislative proposals from California's YIMBY > groups. > > >> It is easily foreseeable that the homeless problem will continue to >> spiral out of control until previously-inconceivable solutions will be >> pressed into service. An example of this will be turning places like >> Darwin California into relocation destinations for those found in urban >> camping situations. >> > > Indeed. One could imagine a million-person housing unit (nearly an > arcology), part of which is set aside for the otherwise-homeless. There > are sites within Santa Clara County where such could be built - along with > dedicated commuter rail, on the assumption (and to try to encourage the > situation) that the majority of residents will take mass transit if they do > not work in (or within walking distance of) the housing unit. Also > included would be a large school (or possibly multiple), a hospital, and a > police station. With a million people living there (even if most may be > poor), commercial support such as a grocery store would inevitably pop up > next door. > > Doubtless, some of the pseudo-environmentalists you mention would have > fits at the mere thought of a million person housing unit, plus support > buildings, anywhere in California. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 4 19:49:35 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 12:49:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] portable toilets, was: RE: Watch robots make pizzas from start to finish at an automated pizzeria In-Reply-To: References: <009901d7894d$3093f910$91bbeb30$@rainier66.com> <000c01d78956$f025c980$d0715c80$@rainier66.com> <003601d78964$7bd1f050$7375d0f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005a01d78969$da76f740$8f64e5c0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat >?Doubtless, some of the pseudo-environmentalists you mention would have fits at the mere thought of a million person housing unit, plus support buildings, anywhere in California. Darwin would be just the place for something like that Adrian. It has the best chance of escaping the NIMBYs and every other protest group. There would be little significant local resistance. It would require a pipeline hauling in water from the Columbia River, which will be difficult to push thru but possible, once other states realize they can export their home-free population to Darwin. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Aug 4 20:16:31 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 13:16:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] portable toilets, was: RE: Watch robots make pizzas from start to finish at an automated pizzeria In-Reply-To: <005a01d78969$da76f740$8f64e5c0$@rainier66.com> References: <009901d7894d$3093f910$91bbeb30$@rainier66.com> <000c01d78956$f025c980$d0715c80$@rainier66.com> <003601d78964$7bd1f050$7375d0f0$@rainier66.com> <005a01d78969$da76f740$8f64e5c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 12:56 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > > >?Doubtless, some of the pseudo-environmentalists you mention would have > fits at the mere thought of a million person housing unit, plus support > buildings, anywhere in California. > > > > Darwin would be just the place for something like that Adrian. It has the > best chance of escaping the NIMBYs and every other protest group. There > would be little significant local resistance. It would require a pipeline > hauling in water from the Columbia River, which will be difficult to push > thru but possible, once other states realize they can export their > home-free population to Darwin. > Perhaps. It seems to be too far from places that might employ that many people - granted, some business will pop up in the area, but only after the place is built and likely not enough to employ most of them at first. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Aug 4 20:27:04 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 13:27:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] portable toilets, was: RE: Watch robots make pizzas from start to finish at an automated pizzeria In-Reply-To: References: <009901d7894d$3093f910$91bbeb30$@rainier66.com> <000c01d78956$f025c980$d0715c80$@rainier66.com> <003601d78964$7bd1f050$7375d0f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 12:50 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Don't like to be a cynic, but if you build housing for the homeless it > will fill up immediately and more people will come from all over. I am > reminded of schools that were too small before they were completed. > Yes. Like I said, population growth - even without the immigration - will make that happen. It is impossible to build once and solve the problem forever, in any place that will have more people later (whether due to immigration or just births). What can be done, is to solve today's needs - perhaps with some excess capacity to account for those who will come soon after. When more people come over time, more capacity can be built for them over time. > "Let's all go to Santa Clara county - free housing, free food........" > Is there anything to stop this from happening? > I give Santa Clara County as an example. For a single statewide solution, Los Angeles or San Diego Counties might be more likely. (Also, I said nothing about free food. Undoubtedly there would be people who come to the arcology to starve, or otherwise die. Assuming 0.05% of the population die in any given month - based on California's annual death rate of about 600 people per 100,000 - the caretaking staff will be removing about 500 corpses a month when the arcology has 1,000,000 residents. This is enough to warrant standard procedures and equipment for such an event, such as in-building sensors to detect when someone dies.) > The only way I see anything like this happening is for it to be done on > the federal level. They can print as much money as is needed. > Perhaps, if you could get the feds to care. Much of the GOP seems to prefer that poor people suffer. Though perhaps they may eventually be reduced to the point where they can no longer block legislation. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Wed Aug 4 19:46:30 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 12:46:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Watch robots make pizzas from start to finish at an automated pizzeria In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ac7b820-cf96-0835-54d7-c3bb3683a747@pobox.com> On 2021-8-04 23:35, John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote: > I remember the discussion we had here about fast food restaurant > automation, and how it?was the holy grail of that industry. The fast food industry or the automation industry? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 4 21:05:24 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 14:05:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] portable toilets, was: RE: Watch robots make pizzas from start to finish at an automated pizzeria In-Reply-To: References: <009901d7894d$3093f910$91bbeb30$@rainier66.com> <000c01d78956$f025c980$d0715c80$@rainier66.com> <003601d78964$7bd1f050$7375d0f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004901d78974$725c9240$5715b6c0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] portable toilets, was: RE: Watch robots make pizzas from start to finish at an automated pizzeria >?Don't like to be a cynic, but if you build housing for the homeless it will fill up immediately and more people will come from all over. I am reminded of schools that were too small before they were completed? How well I can relate to that. Our town passed a once-in-a-lifetime bond measure to expand schools that were desperately overcrowded. When the schools cut the last ribbon, they will be even more desperately overcrowded, but this time, we can?t pass another bond. >?"Let's all go to Santa Clara county? Darwin is in Inyo County. >?- free housing, free food?? Sure, after a fashion. The food is unprocessed produce, which will certainly keep one alive and even busy. Billw, the key to attracting the crowd I envision is to give them free drugs, all of it they can smoke, eat, sniff or poke into their veins. Take confiscated dope out there. >?The only way I see anything like this happening is for it to be done on the federal level. They can print as much money as is needed. bill w Billw this is a common misconception, which leads directly to the kind of price increases you are seeing in the grocery store and perhaps everywhere else you spend money. Printing money does not create wealth. Being one who may be dependent on Social Security, you may recognize that the government printing money is equivalent to giving away ever greater portion of your fixed income. What I have in mind is putting a million-unit housing project starting at Darwin and stretching about 20 miles south and west from there, mostly on what is now US Navy property. The housing units would be made from converted shipping containers. I have seen and even stayed in a hotel (in Nevada) made from a shipping container. It can be made into 4 apartments at a remote site and hauled in. The soil in Darwin can bear the load without modification. The Fed cannot (without serious consequence) just arbitrarily print money, but it can arbitrarily hand over property that it owns, and few people will care if it is repurposed from a Navy test range. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 4 21:30:57 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 14:30:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] portable toilets, was: RE: Watch robots make pizzas from start to finish at an automated pizzeria In-Reply-To: References: <009901d7894d$3093f910$91bbeb30$@rainier66.com> <000c01d78956$f025c980$d0715c80$@rainier66.com> <003601d78964$7bd1f050$7375d0f0$@rainier66.com> <005a01d78969$da76f740$8f64e5c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006401d78978$03f04dc0$0bd0e940$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat >?Perhaps. It seems to be too far from places that might employ that many people - granted, some business will pop up in the area, but only after the place is built and likely not enough to employ most of them at first? We may be talking about two kinda different things Adrian. I can?t see any practical way of superimposing a San Francisco-sized city on an existing city. My suggesting is a start-from-scratch approach. Our society is already seeing plenty of people who are far beyond being employed at anything we are still doing in places like Santa Clara County CA. What I envision is to load up urban campers with visions of sugar plums dancing in their heads (the free dope) and haul them out there even if they would prefer camping in Santa Clara or San Francisco or Venice Beach. The employment there would be primarily in food processing, products not to be exported but rather consumed on site. I have in mind setting up a nuclear plant, not to export power but to supply Darwin?s needs. We would be setting up a reservation of sorts, free of police brutality entirely, because it wouldn?t have police. It would have food, alcohol, drugs, shelter, even jobs to those who want them. It would be a communist utopia, where true communism could be tried for the first time in history, only better in a sense: there would be no requirement or compulsion to work, or even pretend to. Instead of subsidizing US farmers to not produce, we instead buy corn, potatoes and beans, send them to the idle stoners in Darwin. Then we start hoovering up the urban campers everywhere and off they go. This solution is currently a political no-go, but within five years from now I see a steady transition to a maybe-go, then five years after that a yes-go, then a go-go. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 4 21:34:30 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 14:34:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Watch robots make pizzas from start to finish at an automated pizzeria In-Reply-To: <2ac7b820-cf96-0835-54d7-c3bb3683a747@pobox.com> References: <2ac7b820-cf96-0835-54d7-c3bb3683a747@pobox.com> Message-ID: <006b01d78978$82a34d20$87e9e760$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Watch robots make pizzas ... On 2021-8-04 23:35, John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote: >>... I remember the discussion we had here about fast food restaurant automation, and how it was the holy grail of that industry. spike >...The fast food industry or the automation industry? Anton Yes. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 4 21:35:18 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 16:35:18 -0500 Subject: [ExI] portable toilets, was: RE: Watch robots make pizzas from start to finish at an automated pizzeria In-Reply-To: <004901d78974$725c9240$5715b6c0$@rainier66.com> References: <009901d7894d$3093f910$91bbeb30$@rainier66.com> <000c01d78956$f025c980$d0715c80$@rainier66.com> <003601d78964$7bd1f050$7375d0f0$@rainier66.com> <004901d78974$725c9240$5715b6c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I did not say that I was in favor of the feds doing what would amount to trillions of dollars if facilities were put where significant numbers of the homeless are. I certainly do not have any solutions at all, but I think the supply of people who would want to live in such places is nearly endless, esp. if you supply those drugs (why do that?). (santa clara came from Adrian's post) Your schools will rent trailers in all probability. Common. On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 4:07 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] portable toilets, was: RE: Watch robots make pizzas > from start to finish at an automated pizzeria > > > > >?Don't like to be a cynic, but if you build housing for the homeless it > will fill up immediately and more people will come from all over. I am > reminded of schools that were too small before they were completed? > > > > How well I can relate to that. Our town passed a once-in-a-lifetime bond > measure to expand schools that were desperately overcrowded. When the > schools cut the last ribbon, they will be even more desperately > overcrowded, but this time, we can?t pass another bond. > > > > > > >?"Let's all go to Santa Clara county? > > > > Darwin is in Inyo County. > > > > > > >?- free housing, free food?? > > > > Sure, after a fashion. The food is unprocessed produce, which will > certainly keep one alive and even busy. Billw, the key to attracting the > crowd I envision is to give them free drugs, all of it they can smoke, eat, > sniff or poke into their veins. Take confiscated dope out there. > > > > >?The only way I see anything like this happening is for it to be done on > the federal level. They can print as much money as is needed. > > > > bill w > > > > Billw this is a common misconception, which leads directly to the kind of > price increases you are seeing in the grocery store and perhaps everywhere > else you spend money. Printing money does not create wealth. Being one > who may be dependent on Social Security, you may recognize that the > government printing money is equivalent to giving away ever greater portion > of your fixed income. > > > > What I have in mind is putting a million-unit housing project starting at > Darwin and stretching about 20 miles south and west from there, mostly on > what is now US Navy property. The housing units would be made from > converted shipping containers. I have seen and even stayed in a hotel (in > Nevada) made from a shipping container. It can be made into 4 apartments > at a remote site and hauled in. The soil in Darwin can bear the load > without modification. > > > > The Fed cannot (without serious consequence) just arbitrarily print money, > but it can arbitrarily hand over property that it owns, and few people will > care if it is repurposed from a Navy test range. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Aug 4 21:53:06 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 14:53:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] portable toilets, was: RE: Watch robots make pizzas from start to finish at an automated pizzeria In-Reply-To: References: <009901d7894d$3093f910$91bbeb30$@rainier66.com> <000c01d78956$f025c980$d0715c80$@rainier66.com> <003601d78964$7bd1f050$7375d0f0$@rainier66.com> <004901d78974$725c9240$5715b6c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 2:46 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Your schools will rent trailers in all probability. Common. > I recall mine doing so back in the '80s. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Aug 4 21:58:45 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 22:58:45 +0100 Subject: [ExI] portable toilets, was: RE: Watch robots make pizzas from start to finish at an automated pizzeria In-Reply-To: <006401d78978$03f04dc0$0bd0e940$@rainier66.com> References: <009901d7894d$3093f910$91bbeb30$@rainier66.com> <000c01d78956$f025c980$d0715c80$@rainier66.com> <003601d78964$7bd1f050$7375d0f0$@rainier66.com> <005a01d78969$da76f740$8f64e5c0$@rainier66.com> <006401d78978$03f04dc0$0bd0e940$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Aug 2021 at 22:35, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > This solution is currently a political no-go, but within five years from now I see a steady transition to a maybe-go, then five years after that a yes-go, then a go-go. > > spike > > _______________________________________________ The problem is that people don't appreciate the total costs of homelessness because they are spread over so many different budgets. Hospital emergeny treatment, mental illness, drug use problems, criminal behaviour, police and justice system and jail costs, social workers, cleanup costs, and so on...... Added up, it would be cheaper to pay the rent on hotel rooms for them. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 4 22:11:49 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 15:11:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] portable toilets, was: RE: Watch robots make pizzas from start to finish at an automated pizzeria In-Reply-To: References: <009901d7894d$3093f910$91bbeb30$@rainier66.com> <000c01d78956$f025c980$d0715c80$@rainier66.com> <003601d78964$7bd1f050$7375d0f0$@rainier66.com> <004901d78974$725c9240$5715b6c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002201d7897d$b90a3450$2b1e9cf0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] portable toilets, was: RE: Watch robots make pizzas from start to finish at an automated pizzeria >? but I think the supply of people who would want to live in such places is nearly endless? Agree. That is why you need to put it somewhere where there is plenty of space to expand. Darwin. Expand south. >? esp. if you supply those drugs (why do that?)? I think of the drug thing as a backspin on the Marxist notion: opium would serve as the religion of the masses. >?Your schools will rent trailers in all probability. Common? We already have those. With the bond measure, some of them are being removed to make way for higher-density buildings. Regarding homeless facilities filling up, we are discussing the creation of a boom town to house a million people where now a nearly-deserted ghost town stands. I am hearing reports that over a million people have illegally crossed the US border in the first seven months of 2021. So if we got moving on putting a million in Darwin, turning it from a ghost town into a city the size of San Francisco, we are creating homes for seven months of immigration. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Wed Aug 4 22:14:35 2021 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 18:14:35 -0400 Subject: [ExI] portable toilets, was: RE: Watch robots make pizzas from start to finish at an automated pizzeria In-Reply-To: <009901d7894d$3093f910$91bbeb30$@rainier66.com> References: <009901d7894d$3093f910$91bbeb30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 4, 2021, 12:26 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Prediction: within a year or two, some new car models, mini-vans and > crossovers, will offer an option of a built-in dry toilet or a way to mount > an aftermarket unit. > > If it happens, remember you heard it first right here. > You missed a chance to suggest this as signature-spike way to make a buttload of money. Or is that too on the nose? Or, um.. nevermind. ;) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Aug 4 22:23:20 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 15:23:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] portable toilets, was: RE: Watch robots make pizzas from start to finish at an automated pizzeria In-Reply-To: <006401d78978$03f04dc0$0bd0e940$@rainier66.com> References: <009901d7894d$3093f910$91bbeb30$@rainier66.com> <000c01d78956$f025c980$d0715c80$@rainier66.com> <003601d78964$7bd1f050$7375d0f0$@rainier66.com> <005a01d78969$da76f740$8f64e5c0$@rainier66.com> <006401d78978$03f04dc0$0bd0e940$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 2:34 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > We may be talking about two kinda different things Adrian. I can?t see > any practical way of superimposing a San Francisco-sized city on an > existing city. > A million-person housing unit, done compactly and as high rises, turns out to be much, much smaller than San Francisco. > What I envision is to load up urban campers with visions of sugar plums > dancing in their heads (the free dope) > What of urban campers who don't care for dope, or don't trust that it wouldn't be poisoned? > The employment there would be primarily in food processing, products not > to be exported but rather consumed on site. > That wouldn't employ even a single percent of the people, especially if it's just processing and not growing the food. Even adding in police, medical, power, and other support people, employment only to serve the community would be less than half and possibly less than 10% of the workforce (population, minus those who can't work - such as school-age children). What does everyone else do? > We would be setting up a reservation of sorts, free of police brutality > entirely, because it wouldn?t have police. > Not possible. Even if you try to bar local police, federal police will come in to enforce the law, otherwise criminals will flock to the place as a haven. Even if it was possible to have no police, that would just mean you'd have brutality worse than police-grade. Police are there in part to enforce the government's monopoly on violence; when that monopoly ends, humans are all too quick to assert their claim to it. > It would be a communist utopia, where true communism could be tried for > the first time in history > HA HA HA HA HA - you actually, literally, used that phrase! "...true communism could be tried for the first time in history" is a classic phrase where you lose all credibility. It's almost as famous as, "what could possibly go wrong?", except that some people honestly ask that question instead of trying to imply that nothing can go wrong. I've never seen people use it outside of parody before. In case the sarcasm is unclear: "true" communism is (currently) impossible. Every single attempt inherently winds up with someone in charge, someone more equal than others - if only because some people are (far) more adept at gaining leadership than others. The moment that happens, and the person favors some group over another, it is no longer "true" communism. (In theory an AI could be programmed to rule without such bias, but we do not yet have access to AIs which could do this and rule at all effectively, entirely aside from the issue of getting people to trust and allow leadership by such an AI.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Aug 4 22:25:22 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 15:25:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] portable toilets, was: RE: Watch robots make pizzas from start to finish at an automated pizzeria In-Reply-To: References: <009901d7894d$3093f910$91bbeb30$@rainier66.com> <000c01d78956$f025c980$d0715c80$@rainier66.com> <003601d78964$7bd1f050$7375d0f0$@rainier66.com> <005a01d78969$da76f740$8f64e5c0$@rainier66.com> <006401d78978$03f04dc0$0bd0e940$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 3:00 PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The problem is that people don't appreciate the total costs of > homelessness because they are spread over so many different budgets. > Hospital emergeny treatment, mental illness, drug use problems, > criminal behaviour, police and justice system and jail costs, social > workers, cleanup costs, and so on...... Added up, it would be > cheaper to pay the rent on hotel rooms for them. > Agreed - or even to build and run a mega-hotel for them, such is the scale of the problem in California (or even just certain of the more populous counties). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Aug 4 22:26:38 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 23:26:38 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Bigger Sturgis rally starts this weekend Message-ID: Sturgis bike rally revs back bigger, despite virus variant By STEPHEN GROVE 4 Aug 2021 SIOUX FALLS, S.D. (AP) ? Crowds of bikers are rumbling their way towards South Dakota?s Black Hills this week, raising fears that COVID-19 infections will be unleashed among the 700,000 people expected to show up at the Sturgis Motorcycle Rally. BillK From atymes at gmail.com Wed Aug 4 22:28:02 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 15:28:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] portable toilets, was: RE: Watch robots make pizzas from start to finish at an automated pizzeria In-Reply-To: <002201d7897d$b90a3450$2b1e9cf0$@rainier66.com> References: <009901d7894d$3093f910$91bbeb30$@rainier66.com> <000c01d78956$f025c980$d0715c80$@rainier66.com> <003601d78964$7bd1f050$7375d0f0$@rainier66.com> <004901d78974$725c9240$5715b6c0$@rainier66.com> <002201d7897d$b90a3450$2b1e9cf0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 3:13 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Regarding homeless facilities filling up, we are discussing the creation > of a boom town to house a million people where now a nearly-deserted ghost > town stands. I am hearing reports that over a million people have > illegally crossed the US border in the first seven months of 2021. So if > we got moving on putting a million in Darwin, turning it from a ghost town > into a city the size of San Francisco, we are creating homes for seven > months of immigration. > I had been talking just about Californian problems. If we're talking the entire US, then - at the least - Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas might host these sites too. And that assumes that most of the illegal border crossers stay homeless after crossing the border, which does not seem to be the case (for long). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Wed Aug 4 23:43:45 2021 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 19:43:45 -0400 Subject: [ExI] portable toilets, was: RE: Watch robots make pizzas from start to finish at an automated pizzeria In-Reply-To: References: <009901d7894d$3093f910$91bbeb30$@rainier66.com> <000c01d78956$f025c980$d0715c80$@rainier66.com> <003601d78964$7bd1f050$7375d0f0$@rainier66.com> <005a01d78969$da76f740$8f64e5c0$@rainier66.com> <006401d78978$03f04dc0$0bd0e940$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 4, 2021, 6:32 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Agreed - or even to build and run a mega-hotel for them, such is the scale > of the problem in California (or even just certain of the more populous > counties). > Mega Hotel California Sounds like a remake of an Eagles classic, but with extra dystopian vibe. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed Aug 4 23:52:57 2021 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 19:52:57 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Social Media Bans Message-ID: Today BAP (Bronze Age Pervert), a right wing influencer, was banned from Twitter, which has caused a bit or an uproar in the community. The creation and dissemination of media projects and memes, testimonials, eulogies increased exponentially. His ideas are being discussed more, and his iconography and catchphrases are ubiquitous. His dedicated fans have joined his telegram channel, over 10K in 12 hours. Do you feel these types of social media suspensions achieve their desired results? If not, what might be more effective? SR Ballard From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 4 23:59:37 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 16:59:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] portable toilets, was: RE: Watch robots make pizzas from start to finish at an automated pizzeria In-Reply-To: References: <009901d7894d$3093f910$91bbeb30$@rainier66.com> <000c01d78956$f025c980$d0715c80$@rainier66.com> <003601d78964$7bd1f050$7375d0f0$@rainier66.com> <005a01d78969$da76f740$8f64e5c0$@rainier66.com> <006401d78978$03f04dc0$0bd0e940$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006701d7898c$c892a740$59b7f5c0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] portable toilets, was: RE: Watch robots make pizzas from start to finish at an automated pizzeria On Wed, Aug 4, 2021, 6:32 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > wrote: Agreed - or even to build and run a mega-hotel for them, such is the scale of the problem in California (or even just certain of the more populous counties). >?Mega Hotel California >?Sounds like a remake of an Eagles classic, but with extra dystopian vibe. Mike, it wouldn?t need to be dystopian. If we set up a huge facility for housing out in Darwin, then we can demonstrate that housing is a human right: go right on out there and move in, free. Free food, free dope, free everything. It isn?t a prison: people can leave if they wish. No need to check out any time you like, you aren?t checked in. I will freely grant that it might be difficult: your car was stolen the day you arrived but there aren?t any fuel stations out there anyway. You might be able to get friends or family to come out there and fetch you. Walking out isn?t a good option. But? why leave? All the necessities of life are here and free, ja? The Darwin option is a way to avoid the NIMBYs. They won?t mind a bit if we set it up out there, because it isn?t really in anyone?s back yard. NIMBYs would love it. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 5 00:14:56 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 19:14:56 -0500 Subject: [ExI] portable toilets, was: RE: Watch robots make pizzas from start to finish at an automated pizzeria In-Reply-To: References: <009901d7894d$3093f910$91bbeb30$@rainier66.com> <000c01d78956$f025c980$d0715c80$@rainier66.com> <003601d78964$7bd1f050$7375d0f0$@rainier66.com> <005a01d78969$da76f740$8f64e5c0$@rainier66.com> <006401d78978$03f04dc0$0bd0e940$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: >> The problem is that people don't appreciate the total costs of >> homelessness because they are spread over so many different budgets. Hospital >> emergeny treatment, mental illness, drug use problems, criminal >> behaviour, police and justice system and jail costs, social workers, >> cleanup costs, and so on...... Added up, it would becheaper to pay the >> rent on hotel rooms for them. >> > bill K Now, bill K, which of th above do you think will disappear when > they get hotel rooms? > > Agreed - or even to build and run a mega-hotel for them, such is the scale > of the problem in California (or even just certain of the more populous > counties). > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Aug 5 00:47:26 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2021 01:47:26 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Social Media Bans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 at 00:55, SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: > > Today BAP (Bronze Age Pervert), a right wing influencer, was banned from Twitter, which has caused a bit or an uproar in the community. The creation and dissemination of media projects and memes, testimonials, eulogies increased exponentially. His ideas are being discussed more, and his iconography and catchphrases are ubiquitous. His dedicated fans have joined his telegram channel, over 10K in 12 hours. > > Do you feel these types of social media suspensions achieve their desired results? If not, what might be more effective? > > SR Ballard > _______________________________________________ There is a new report out about this. Quote: NEWS RELEASE 3-AUG-2021 Study shows users banned from social platforms go elsewhere with increased toxicity BINGHAMTON UNIVERSITY Researchers developed a method to identify accounts belonging to the same person on different platforms and found that being banned on Reddit or Twitter led those users to join alternate platforms such as Gab or Parler where the content moderation is more lax. Also among the findings is that, although users who move to those smaller platforms have a potentially reduced audience, they exhibit an increased level of activity and toxicity than they did previously. ?The hardcore group, maybe the group that we?re most concerned about, are the ones that probably stick with someone if they move elsewhere online. If by reducing that reach, you increase the intensity that the people who stay around are exposed to, it?s like a quality versus quantity type of question. Is it worse to have more people seeing this stuff? Or is it worse to have more extreme stuff being produced for fewer people?? ----------------------------------------- BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 5 01:05:53 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 20:05:53 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Social Media Bans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Except for National Defense secrets, I don't think that anything ought to be censored. Free speech is not supposed to kill anyone. Sure, you will always have your crazies, but can you shut them up? Should you shut them up? Holler back, I say - let them have their say. Remember that at the time of our Revolution the majority of our people wanted to stay with the King of England. Later many wanted Washington to be a king. The majority opinion is not always right, nor the minority always wrong. How many people believe these things is not the issue. It's their right to speak up about our country just like anyone else. Coarse, crude, limited vocabulary and all that. If you let it hurt you it's your fault. Do you believe that? bill w On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 7:50 PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 at 00:55, SR Ballard via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > Today BAP (Bronze Age Pervert), a right wing influencer, was banned from > Twitter, which has caused a bit or an uproar in the community. The creation > and dissemination of media projects and memes, testimonials, eulogies > increased exponentially. His ideas are being discussed more, and his > iconography and catchphrases are ubiquitous. His dedicated fans have joined > his telegram channel, over 10K in 12 hours. > > > > Do you feel these types of social media suspensions achieve their > desired results? If not, what might be more effective? > > > > SR Ballard > > _______________________________________________ > > > There is a new report out about this. > > > Quote: > NEWS RELEASE 3-AUG-2021 > Study shows users banned from social platforms go elsewhere with > increased toxicity > BINGHAMTON UNIVERSITY > > Researchers developed a method to identify accounts belonging to the > same person on different platforms and found that being banned on > Reddit or Twitter led those users to join alternate platforms such as > Gab or Parler where the content moderation is more lax. > > Also among the findings is that, although users who move to those > smaller platforms have a potentially reduced audience, they exhibit an > increased level of activity and toxicity than they did previously. > ?The hardcore group, maybe the group that we?re most concerned about, > are the ones that probably stick with someone if they move elsewhere > online. If by reducing that reach, you increase the intensity that the > people who stay around are exposed to, it?s like a quality versus > quantity type of question. Is it worse to have more people seeing this > stuff? Or is it worse to have more extreme stuff being produced for > fewer people?? > ----------------------------------------- > > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Aug 5 01:19:40 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2021 02:19:40 +0100 Subject: [ExI] portable toilets, was: RE: Watch robots make pizzas from start to finish at an automated pizzeria In-Reply-To: References: <009901d7894d$3093f910$91bbeb30$@rainier66.com> <000c01d78956$f025c980$d0715c80$@rainier66.com> <003601d78964$7bd1f050$7375d0f0$@rainier66.com> <005a01d78969$da76f740$8f64e5c0$@rainier66.com> <006401d78978$03f04dc0$0bd0e940$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 at 01:18, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> The problem is that people don't appreciate the total costs of >>> homelessness because they are spread over so many different budgets. Hospital emergency treatment, mental illness, drug use problems, criminal behaviour, police and justice system and jail costs, social workers, cleanup costs, and so on...... Added up, it would be cheaper to pay the rent on hotel rooms for them. >> >> bill K >> Now, bill K, which of the above do you think will disappear when they get hotel rooms? >> >> _______________________________________________ Most of them, to varying extents. Homelessness has been much studied with many reports produced. Obviously they won't overnight become model citizens with a job as a merchant banker. :) But having a permanent address with protection from bad weather and an indoor toilet makes a huge difference to their lifestyle. BillK From bronto at pobox.com Thu Aug 5 01:27:55 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 18:27:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] portable toilets, was: RE: Watch robots make pizzas from start to finish at an automated pizzeria In-Reply-To: <005201d78954$f7d29430$e777bc90$@rainier66.com> References: <009901d7894d$3093f910$91bbeb30$@rainier66.com> <005201d78954$f7d29430$e777bc90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On 2021-8-04 10:20, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > The Honda Odyssey and Dodge Grand Caravan are two examples of minivan > crossovers capable of carrying a 4x8 sheet of plywood (above the wheel > wells I imagine (anyone here know?)) but still get good fuel economy on > the freeway. > > With that size platform, one can imagine a rig with a roll-up foam pad > suitable for over-nighting or even for when one with sleep > irregularities gets drowsy during the day. My mother at age ~fifty drove from Pennsylvania to California (with lots of sightseeing and visiting), sleeping in the back of her Dodge Grand Caravan. I don't know how she handled hygiene. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Aug 5 16:31:51 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2021 09:31:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] portable toilets, was: RE: Watch robots make pizzas from start to finish at an automated pizzeria In-Reply-To: References: <009901d7894d$3093f910$91bbeb30$@rainier66.com> <000c01d78956$f025c980$d0715c80$@rainier66.com> <003601d78964$7bd1f050$7375d0f0$@rainier66.com> <005a01d78969$da76f740$8f64e5c0$@rainier66.com> <006401d78978$03f04dc0$0bd0e940$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike wrote: "We would be setting up a reservation of sorts, free of police brutality entirely, because it wouldn?t have police. It would have food, alcohol, drugs, shelter, even jobs to those who want them. It would be a communist utopia, where true communism could be tried for the first time in history, only better in a sense: there would be no requirement or compulsion to work, or even pretend to. Instead of subsidizing US farmers to not produce, we instead buy corn, potatoes and beans, send them to the idle stoners in Darwin. Then we start hoovering up the urban campers everywhere and off they go." Well, not having police could be a big problem. I could imagine gangs forming over time and terrorizing the people there. Having police substations might be a good idea, or volunteer organizations like the Guardian Angels, with membership from the homeless. During my missionary tour of duty in New Orleans, I saw the disturbing influence of various gangs. Nature abhors a vacuum, as they say... Spike, Fox News would go absolutely nuts covering your homeless community, where people are given drugs, are fed with free food, and are handed out drugs! Lol I would want the place to have a medical facility, because many homeless have not had proper medical care for years. And definitely a big dental clinic as well. Oh, and a job placement/skills training center would be excellent. Perhaps the brighter inhabitants could be trained in coding and brought within the tech industry fold. A big gym for getting in shape and self-esteem would be awesome, along with a library for reading and contemplation. And I would want a multi-denominational chapel facility, where among other things, meditation is taught. Since you mentioned it being a "utopia," they should create a worker cooperative so the people have a sense of being productive, and in control of their own lives and community. It would be interesting to see what sort of industry and businesses could be brought in to fulfil such a need. There could be two approaches to the place. It could be set up to basically "soma" the downtrodden, and keep them barely content and out of sight. Or it could be designed to truly help people and give them a certain level of real dignity. And for those with ambition and ability, it could be a place to start climbing the socio-economic ladder, if they had solid job training programs there and good internet connections. I could envision people who are not actually homeless wanting to live there, so that they can save their money to go back to school, or buy a house. They will get to hear, "hey, you're not really one of us!" John On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 5:17 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > >>> The problem is that people don't appreciate the total costs of >>> homelessness because they are spread over so many different budgets. Hospital >>> emergeny treatment, mental illness, drug use problems, criminal >>> behaviour, police and justice system and jail costs, social workers, >>> cleanup costs, and so on...... Added up, it would becheaper to pay the >>> rent on hotel rooms for them. >>> >> bill K Now, bill K, which of th above do you think will disappear when >> they get hotel rooms? >> >> Agreed - or even to build and run a mega-hotel for them, such is the >> scale of the problem in California (or even just certain of the more >> populous counties). >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Aug 5 02:26:10 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 19:26:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] portable toilets, was: RE: Watch robots make pizzas from start to finish at an automated pizzeria In-Reply-To: References: <009901d7894d$3093f910$91bbeb30$@rainier66.com> <000c01d78956$f025c980$d0715c80$@rainier66.com> <003601d78964$7bd1f050$7375d0f0$@rainier66.com> <005a01d78969$da76f740$8f64e5c0$@rainier66.com> <006401d78978$03f04dc0$0bd0e940$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 6:35 PM John Grigg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > There could be two approaches to the place. It could be set up to > basically "soma" the downtrodden, and keep them barely content and out of > sight. Or it could be designed to truly help people and give them a certain > level of real dignity. And for those with ambition and ability, it could be > a place to start climbing the socio-economic ladder, if they had solid job > training programs there and good internet connections. > There are far too many who would fight like hell to keep the second option from existing in truth. Keeping such a facility in Darwin - or otherwise away from (other) large cities and thus out of public notice - would be a good counter. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Thu Aug 5 05:05:47 2021 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2021 01:05:47 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Social Media Bans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0E51ABAB-0F23-4E93-829F-8263CF8BA0BC@gmail.com> I think the bans are both morally wrong and increase extremism, so doubly terrible ideas. SR Ballard > On Aug 4, 2021, at 9:08 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > Except for National Defense secrets, I don't think that anything ought to be censored. Free speech is not supposed to kill anyone. Sure, you will always have your crazies, but can you shut them up? Should you shut them up? Holler back, I say - let them have their say. Remember that at the time of our Revolution the majority of our people wanted to stay with the King of England. Later many wanted Washington to be a king. The majority opinion is not always right, nor the minority always wrong. How many people believe these things is not the issue. It's their right to speak up about our country just like anyone else. Coarse, crude, limited vocabulary and all that. If you let it hurt you it's your fault. Do you believe that? bill w > >> On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 7:50 PM BillK via extropy-chat wrote: >> On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 at 00:55, SR Ballard via extropy-chat >> wrote: >> > >> > Today BAP (Bronze Age Pervert), a right wing influencer, was banned from Twitter, which has caused a bit or an uproar in the community. The creation and dissemination of media projects and memes, testimonials, eulogies increased exponentially. His ideas are being discussed more, and his iconography and catchphrases are ubiquitous. His dedicated fans have joined his telegram channel, over 10K in 12 hours. >> > >> > Do you feel these types of social media suspensions achieve their desired results? If not, what might be more effective? >> > >> > SR Ballard >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> >> There is a new report out about this. >> >> >> Quote: >> NEWS RELEASE 3-AUG-2021 >> Study shows users banned from social platforms go elsewhere with >> increased toxicity >> BINGHAMTON UNIVERSITY >> >> Researchers developed a method to identify accounts belonging to the >> same person on different platforms and found that being banned on >> Reddit or Twitter led those users to join alternate platforms such as >> Gab or Parler where the content moderation is more lax. >> >> Also among the findings is that, although users who move to those >> smaller platforms have a potentially reduced audience, they exhibit an >> increased level of activity and toxicity than they did previously. >> ?The hardcore group, maybe the group that we?re most concerned about, >> are the ones that probably stick with someone if they move elsewhere >> online. If by reducing that reach, you increase the intensity that the >> people who stay around are exposed to, it?s like a quality versus >> quantity type of question. Is it worse to have more people seeing this >> stuff? Or is it worse to have more extreme stuff being produced for >> fewer people?? >> ----------------------------------------- >> >> >> BillK >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 5 05:14:51 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 22:14:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] portable toilets, was: RE: Watch robots make pizzas from start to finish at an automated pizzeria In-Reply-To: References: <009901d7894d$3093f910$91bbeb30$@rainier66.com> <005201d78954$f7d29430$e777bc90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003401d789b8$d21e0710$765a1530$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat ... >...My mother at age ~fifty drove from Pennsylvania to California (with lots of sightseeing and visiting), sleeping in the back of her Dodge Grand Caravan. I don't know how she handled hygiene. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org _______________________________________________ Anton, even the pessimists among us recognize that the horrifying tragedy of covid has produced a few positive outcomes. Among these is getting us to think about safety thru social distancing. We can now do extended no-touch tours if we own a camper. It takes some careful planning, but one can go for about 10 days without having to set foot in a grocery store or any other store. The visiting relatives part is mostly out of the question, but the sightseeing need not be. If one maintains the proper social distancing, hygiene becomes largely irrelevant. My apologies for being blunt on that, but covid has in a way given us some new freedoms. spike From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Aug 5 23:52:19 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2021 16:52:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Webb Space Telescope Scheduled For November Launch Message-ID: I can't wait! : ) "Rumors were swirling, and now it appears to be true. The James Webb Space Telescope ? also known as JWST or simply the Webb ? is coming up against yet another delay, albeit a small one in contrast to other delays and setbacks over the past two decades. European Space Agency representatives and Arianespace officials acknowledged at a briefing on June 1, 2021, that the launch of the Webb will likely slip from this coming October 31. According to SpaceNews , the cause of the delay is a grace period for team engineers to review *payload fairing* problems. The payload fairing is essentially the rocket?s nose cone. It?s the covering on top of the payload. The issue in this case is linked to the Ariane 5 rocket that?ll launch Webb, hopefully, now, in mid-November 2021." https://earthsky.org/space/james-webb-telescope-hubble-successor-to-launch/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Aug 5 23:53:32 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2021 16:53:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Delaying Aging Would Bring Trillions of Dollars in Economic Gains, Study Finds Message-ID: I can hear Max and Natasha in my mind saying to the world, "we told you so..." "Now researchers have used US economic, health, and demographic data to put a price on just how valuable such an intervention could be. In a paper in *Nature Aging* , they showed that treatments that slow down aging could be worth US$38 trillion for every extra year of life they give people. This isn?t the first time someone has tried to pin a number on the benefits of slowing aging. The authors reference a 2013 study in* Health Affairs* , which estimated that a 2.2-year increase in life expectancy could be worth as much as $7.1 trillion over 50 years." https://singularityhub.com/2021/07/12/delaying-aging-would-bring-trillions-of-dollars-in-economic-gains-study-finds/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Aug 5 23:54:54 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2021 16:54:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?China_wants_to_put_lasers_on_hypersonic_missiles?= =?utf-8?b?IOKAkyBoZXJl4oCZcyB3aHk=?= Message-ID: "Scientists at a Chinese military university are developing a new laser device they intend to attach to Chinese hypersonic missiles that will help those missiles reach higher speeds with less air resistance, a new report revealed this week. In a July issue of *Laser and Infrared*, reported by the South China Morning Post on Tuesday, Chinese scientists with the Chinese military-integrated Space Engineering University of Beijing detailed research on a laser energy device that could create a plasma cloud around the nose of a missile. The Chinese researchers said the laser device could be used to reduce air resistance against a missile by 70 percent or more." https://americanmilitarynews.com/2021/07/china-wants-to-put-lasers-on-hypersonic-missiles-heres-why/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 5 13:02:14 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2021 08:02:14 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Social Media Bans In-Reply-To: <0E51ABAB-0F23-4E93-829F-8263CF8BA0BC@gmail.com> References: <0E51ABAB-0F23-4E93-829F-8263CF8BA0BC@gmail.com> Message-ID: But hear this: Facebook and all the rest are private companies and can ban anything they want to, so while we may think it's a bad idea, it's not unconstitutional bill w On Thu, Aug 5, 2021 at 12:08 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I think the bans are both morally wrong and increase extremism, so doubly > terrible ideas. > > SR Ballard > > On Aug 4, 2021, at 9:08 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ? > Except for National Defense secrets, I don't think that anything ought to > be censored. Free speech is not supposed to kill anyone. Sure, you will > always have your crazies, but can you shut them up? Should you shut them > up? Holler back, I say - let them have their say. Remember that at the > time of our Revolution the majority of our people wanted to stay with the > King of England. Later many wanted Washington to be a king. The majority > opinion is not always right, nor the minority always wrong. How many > people believe these things is not the issue. It's their right to speak up > about our country just like anyone else. Coarse, crude, limited vocabulary > and all that. If you let it hurt you it's your fault. Do you believe > that? bill w > > On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 7:50 PM BillK via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 at 00:55, SR Ballard via extropy-chat >> wrote: >> > >> > Today BAP (Bronze Age Pervert), a right wing influencer, was banned >> from Twitter, which has caused a bit or an uproar in the community. The >> creation and dissemination of media projects and memes, testimonials, >> eulogies increased exponentially. His ideas are being discussed more, and >> his iconography and catchphrases are ubiquitous. His dedicated fans have >> joined his telegram channel, over 10K in 12 hours. >> > >> > Do you feel these types of social media suspensions achieve their >> desired results? If not, what might be more effective? >> > >> > SR Ballard >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> >> There is a new report out about this. >> >> >> Quote: >> NEWS RELEASE 3-AUG-2021 >> Study shows users banned from social platforms go elsewhere with >> increased toxicity >> BINGHAMTON UNIVERSITY >> >> Researchers developed a method to identify accounts belonging to the >> same person on different platforms and found that being banned on >> Reddit or Twitter led those users to join alternate platforms such as >> Gab or Parler where the content moderation is more lax. >> >> Also among the findings is that, although users who move to those >> smaller platforms have a potentially reduced audience, they exhibit an >> increased level of activity and toxicity than they did previously. >> ?The hardcore group, maybe the group that we?re most concerned about, >> are the ones that probably stick with someone if they move elsewhere >> online. If by reducing that reach, you increase the intensity that the >> people who stay around are exposed to, it?s like a quality versus >> quantity type of question. Is it worse to have more people seeing this >> stuff? Or is it worse to have more extreme stuff being produced for >> fewer people?? >> ----------------------------------------- >> >> >> BillK >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Thu Aug 5 13:07:48 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2021 09:07:48 -0400 Subject: [ExI] dogs lie? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry for your loss, John. Thanks for sharing. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 5 13:27:04 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2021 06:27:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Social Media Bans In-Reply-To: References: <0E51ABAB-0F23-4E93-829F-8263CF8BA0BC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003d01d789fd$954f4390$bfedcab0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Social Media Bans >?But hear this: Facebook and all the rest are private companies and can ban anything they want to, so while we may think it's a bad idea, it's not unconstitutional bill w That?s right. If Facebook wants to be the US equivalent of Pravda, that?s their right. We don?t trust it or the information it passes on, but I will say for it that it publishes a lot of information. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Aug 5 13:32:10 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2021 14:32:10 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Social Media Bans In-Reply-To: References: <0E51ABAB-0F23-4E93-829F-8263CF8BA0BC@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 at 14:05, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > But hear this: Facebook and all the rest are private companies and can ban anything they want to, so while we may think it's a bad idea, it's not unconstitutional bill w > > On Thu, Aug 5, 2021 at 12:08 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> I think the bans are both morally wrong and increase extremism, so doubly terrible ideas. >> >> SR Ballard >> _______________________________________________ Yes, that's the standard excuse they take advantage of. But if the bans are following instructions from the government to ban stuff that the government disapproves of,-----then they are acting as an arm of the government. It is a method for the government to implement unconstitutional acts by saying 'We didn't do it - it's them over there and they are allowed to do it.' It is called Fascism - the merger of state and corporate power. BillK From interzone at gmail.com Thu Aug 5 14:21:01 2021 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2021 10:21:01 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Social Media Bans In-Reply-To: References: <0E51ABAB-0F23-4E93-829F-8263CF8BA0BC@gmail.com> Message-ID: +infinity. If you don't see this happening, you're not paying attention. On Thu, Aug 5, 2021, 9:34 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 at 14:05, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > But hear this: Facebook and all the rest are private companies and can > ban anything they want to, so while we may think it's a bad idea, it's not > unconstitutional bill w > > > > On Thu, Aug 5, 2021 at 12:08 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> > >> I think the bans are both morally wrong and increase extremism, so > doubly terrible ideas. > >> > >> SR Ballard > >> _______________________________________________ > > > Yes, that's the standard excuse they take advantage of. > But if the bans are following instructions from the government to ban > stuff that the government disapproves of,-----then they are acting as > an arm of the government. It is a method for the government to > implement unconstitutional acts by saying 'We didn't do it - it's them > over there and they are allowed to do it.' > It is called Fascism - the merger of state and corporate power. > > > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 5 14:26:29 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2021 07:26:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Social Media Bans In-Reply-To: References: <0E51ABAB-0F23-4E93-829F-8263CF8BA0BC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000401d78a05$e251f310$a6f5d930$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Social Media Bans On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 at 14:05, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > But hear this: Facebook and all the rest are private companies and can ban anything they want to, so while we may think it's a bad idea, it's not unconstitutional bill w > > On Thu, Aug 5, 2021 at 12:08 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> I think the bans are both morally wrong and increase extremism, so doubly terrible ideas. >> >> SR Ballard >> _______________________________________________ >...Yes, that's the standard excuse they take advantage of. But if the bans are following instructions from the government to ban stuff that the government disapproves of,-----then they are acting as an arm of the government. It is a method for the government to implement unconstitutional acts by saying 'We didn't do it - it's them over there and they are allowed to do it.' It is called Fascism - the merger of state and corporate power. BillK _______________________________________________ Treat everything you see on Face Book and most mainstream media as state-owned media. If you want actual news, look elsewhere. spike From sparge at gmail.com Thu Aug 5 15:03:16 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2021 11:03:16 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Social Media Bans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 9:08 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Except for National Defense secrets, I don't think that anything ought to > be censored. Free speech is not supposed to kill anyone. > So you think Facebook should be compelled to allow pedophiles to organize and share information? -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at maxmore.com Thu Aug 5 16:53:18 2021 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2021 16:53:18 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Delaying Aging Would Bring Trillions of Dollars in Economic Gains, Study Finds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We told you so. ?? Seriously, it's encouraging to see the "longevity dividend" idea get more attention. It should be a powerful tool to help people rethink their economic and research priorities. Can we please step on the accelerator with the anti-aging? I'm 57 and cryonics is looking more and more likely for me. --Max ________________________________ From: extropy-chat on behalf of John Grigg via extropy-chat Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 4:53 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: John Grigg Subject: [ExI] Delaying Aging Would Bring Trillions of Dollars in Economic Gains, Study Finds I can hear Max and Natasha in my mind saying to the world, "we told you so..." "Now researchers have used US economic, health, and demographic data to put a price on just how valuable such an intervention could be. In a paper in Nature Aging, they showed that treatments that slow down aging could be worth US$38 trillion for every extra year of life they give people. This isn?t the first time someone has tried to pin a number on the benefits of slowing aging. The authors reference a 2013 study in Health Affairs, which estimated that a 2.2-year increase in life expectancy could be worth as much as $7.1 trillion over 50 years." https://singularityhub.com/2021/07/12/delaying-aging-would-bring-trillions-of-dollars-in-economic-gains-study-finds/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 5 17:06:12 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2021 10:06:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Delaying Aging Would Bring Trillions of Dollars in Economic Gains, Study Finds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000901d78a1c$31d15a00$95740e00$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Max More via extropy-chat >?I'm 57 and cryonics is looking more and more likely for me. --Max Merely 57? Max you still have time for youthful indiscretions, me lad. Just make sure Natasha is cool with it, better yet, in on it. Clearly you are a fine example of how careful attention to exercise and diet can benefit the body and mind. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at maxmore.com Thu Aug 5 19:25:18 2021 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2021 19:25:18 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Delaying Aging Would Bring Trillions of Dollars in Economic Gains, Study Finds In-Reply-To: <000901d78a1c$31d15a00$95740e00$@rainier66.com> References: , <000901d78a1c$31d15a00$95740e00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Here's another article along the same lines: https://www.nature.com/articles/s43587-021-00080-0 [https://media.springernature.com/m685/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fs43587-021-00080-0/MediaObjects/43587_2021_80_Fig1_HTML.png] The economic value of targeting aging | Nature Aging Table 1 shows the WTP for increases of 1 year in remaining LE through rectangularization versus improvements in lifespan, at ages 0, 20, 40, 60 and 80 years. The first row is the WTP for the ... www.nature.com ________________________________ From: extropy-chat on behalf of spike jones via extropy-chat Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 10:06 AM To: 'ExI chat list' Cc: spike at rainier66.com Subject: Re: [ExI] Delaying Aging Would Bring Trillions of Dollars in Economic Gains, Study Finds ?> On Behalf Of Max More via extropy-chat >?I'm 57 and cryonics is looking more and more likely for me. --Max Merely 57? Max you still have time for youthful indiscretions, me lad. Just make sure Natasha is cool with it, better yet, in on it. Clearly you are a fine example of how careful attention to exercise and diet can benefit the body and mind. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at maxmore.com Thu Aug 5 19:28:56 2021 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2021 19:28:56 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Delaying Aging Would Bring Trillions of Dollars in Economic Gains, Study Finds In-Reply-To: <000901d78a1c$31d15a00$95740e00$@rainier66.com> References: , <000901d78a1c$31d15a00$95740e00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: At least I'm not 37 and mistaken for older and for the other sex... King Arthur: Old woman. Dennis: Man. King Arthur: Man, sorry. What knight lives in that castle over there? Dennis: I'm 37. King Arthur: What? Dennis: I'm 37. I'm not old. King Arthur: Well I can't just call you 'man'. Dennis: Well you could say "Dennis". King Arthur: I didn't know you were called Dennis. Dennis: Well you didn't bother to find out did you? ________________________________ From: extropy-chat on behalf of spike jones via extropy-chat Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 10:06 AM To: 'ExI chat list' Cc: spike at rainier66.com Subject: Re: [ExI] Delaying Aging Would Bring Trillions of Dollars in Economic Gains, Study Finds ?> On Behalf Of Max More via extropy-chat >?I'm 57 and cryonics is looking more and more likely for me. --Max Merely 57? Max you still have time for youthful indiscretions, me lad. Just make sure Natasha is cool with it, better yet, in on it. Clearly you are a fine example of how careful attention to exercise and diet can benefit the body and mind. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Thu Aug 5 19:44:01 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2021 12:44:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] anarcho-syndicalism and infinite regress In-Reply-To: References: <000901d78a1c$31d15a00$95740e00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <6367d9d2-0d16-fe92-6a42-84f43b4307fc@pobox.com> > King Arthur: I didn't know you were called Dennis. > Dennis: Well you didn't bother to find out did you? ... by asking someone else, whom he ought to address by name, which he'd have to learn by asking someone else, whom he ought to address by name, which he'd have to learn by asking someone else, whom he ought to address by name, which he'd have to learn by asking someone else, whom he ought to address by name, which he'd have to learn by asking someone else, whom he ought to address by name, which he'd have to learn by -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From sen.otaku at gmail.com Fri Aug 6 01:02:15 2021 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2021 21:02:15 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Social Media Bans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56889879-F917-4DD2-B0AD-212DCB9033F0@gmail.com> It?s not free speech to share child porn. It is free speech to talk about disgusting things. SR Ballard > On Aug 5, 2021, at 11:05 AM, Dave Sill via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? >> On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 9:08 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >> Except for National Defense secrets, I don't think that anything ought to be censored. Free speech is not supposed to kill anyone. > > So you think Facebook should be compelled to allow pedophiles to organize and share information? > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Fri Aug 6 01:19:36 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 11:19:36 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Social Media Bans In-Reply-To: <56889879-F917-4DD2-B0AD-212DCB9033F0@gmail.com> References: <56889879-F917-4DD2-B0AD-212DCB9033F0@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Aug 2021 at 11:03, SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > It?s not free speech to share child porn. It is free speech to talk about > disgusting things. > The only reason not to call it a limitation in free speech is if you think child pornography should be limited but free speech should not, because that would lead to a contradiction. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Fri Aug 6 01:41:59 2021 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2021 21:41:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Social Media Bans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8433BD08-512E-49A8-BC6B-213F84F87A58@gmail.com> Distributing a video and speaking are not the same. It is perfectly illegal to share many videos, which does not curtail my free speech at all. Advocating for something is not the same as sharing explicit videos of the rape of children. SR Ballard > On Aug 5, 2021, at 9:21 PM, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > > >> On Fri, 6 Aug 2021 at 11:03, SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >> It?s not free speech to share child porn. It is free speech to talk about disgusting things. > > The only reason not to call it a limitation in free speech is if you think child pornography should be limited but free speech should not, because that would lead to a contradiction. > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Fri Aug 6 01:50:44 2021 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2021 18:50:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 215, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20210805185044.Horde.A1m0yRwQrPyRimQq1sKIJHW@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org: > Message: 10 > Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2021 15:15:00 -0700 > From: > To: "'ExiMod'" , "'ExI chat list'" > > Cc: "'Cc:'" > Subject: Re: [ExI] Exi-Chat Restored now! > Message-ID: <004801d788b5$00cea600$026bf200$@rainier66.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Thanks ExiMod. Thanks Max. Life? is? goooooood? > > > > This is the second miracle this week! Earlier the image of the > virgin was given to a small group of campers. Do you doubters require proof? I have been too busy to post much lately, but I did miss all your voices in my head. Welcome back, ALL. And CHEERS to whoever paid the bill this time around! :-) Stuart LaForge From jose.cordeiro at gmail.com Fri Aug 6 00:57:09 2021 From: jose.cordeiro at gmail.com (Jose Cordeiro) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 00:57:09 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] TransVision 2021: global futures summit (October 8-9-10) and UNESCO sites tours (October 11-12) in Madrid References: <502284712.148005.1628211429631.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <502284712.148005.1628211429631@mail.yahoo.com> Dear visionary friends, Great to reconnect here, and let me welcome you personally to our global futures summit TransVision 2021 in beautiful Madrid after the pandemic, it will be immortal, literally, so kindly put it in your agenda and share with your friends, please: https://www.transvisionmadrid.com/ ? ? After 3 days of fantastic conferences during October 8-9-10, you can join us for the optional tours to the UNESCO World Heritage sites around Madrid: October 11 (Avila, Segovia, El Escorial and Valley of the Fallen) and October 12 (Aranjuez and Toledo), closing back in Madrid with the celebrations of Spanish National Day and the (Re)Discovery of the Americas, and quick visits to the Prado Museum. By the way, Madrid has just been selected as the first European city center featured by UNESCO:?Madrid gets its first-ever UNESCO heritage site ? ? ?Thank you so much in advance and we are looking forward to hosting you for our great activities in beautiful Spain... the land of Plus Ultra... ? ? ?Futuristically yours, ? ? ?La vie est belle! Jose Cordeiro, MBA, PhD?(www.cordeiro.org)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Luis_Cordeiro On Wednesday, August 4, 2021, 01:21:18 PM GMT+2, Kaj Sotala wrote: En varsinaisesti sanoisi tuon hy?kk??v?n esim. transhumanismia, EA:ta tai rationaalisuutta itse??n vastaan, vaan pelk?st??n tietty? ajattelu/arvomaailmaa joka usein yhdistyy niihin. Mutta kyll?h?n sit? voi hyvin olla sek? transhumanisti ett? samaan aikaan my?s torjua ajatuksen siit?, ett? onnellisten el?mien m??r?n lis??minen olisi arvo itsess??n. (Laittaisin esim. itse itseni t?h?n kategoriaan. V?lit?n ensisijaisesti ihmisten tekemisest? onnellisiksi, en niink??n onnellisten ihmisten tekemisest?.) On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 10:17 AM Kalle Mikkola wrote: Jotkut ovat alkaneet maalittaa transhumanismia / effective altruism -liikett? / rationalismia / longtermismi? / Nick Bostr?mi? etc.:https://www.currentaffairs.org/2021/07/the-dangerous-ideas-of-longtermism-and-existential-risk(Maalittamisen laajassa merkityksess?.) Saahan siit? paljon klikkeja, kun toimittaja esitt?? hyvissuperrikkaat kauheina pahiksina. Tosin en v?ltt?m?tt? pid? kaikkia listattuja hyviksin? - osa sen sijaan on keskeisess? roolissa ihmiskunnan ym. tulevaisuuden pelastamisessa ja parantamisessa. Esimerkki levi?misest?:https://twitter.com/aqsalose/status/1422621787096064005 Moraalifilosofian tutkijana n?kisin, ett? longtermismi?on hyvinkin tieteen valtavirtaan perustuvaa.https://talks.ox.ac.uk/talks/id/ede5a398-9b98-4269-a13f-3f2261ee6d2c/ T. Kalle-- Kalle.Mikkola at iki.fi 040-7545 660 -- Sait t?m?n viestin, koska olet tilannut seuraavan Google-ryhm?n: transhumanistiliitto. Jos haluat peruuttaa t?m?n ryhm?n tilauksen ja sen s?hk?postiviestien vastaanottamisen, l?het? s?hk?postia osoitteeseen transhumanistiliitto+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. Jos haluat tarkastella t?t? keskustelua verkossa, siirry osoitteeseen https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/transhumanistiliitto/CA%2BpVg%3DKWcZtY3mLGa7xdxxYKm8WsMSk0iQNps-%3DhVLQZM-qB%3DQ%40mail.gmail.com. -- Sait t?m?n viestin, koska olet tilannut seuraavan Google-ryhm?n: transhumanistiliitto. Jos haluat peruuttaa t?m?n ryhm?n tilauksen ja sen s?hk?postiviestien vastaanottamisen, l?het? s?hk?postia osoitteeseen transhumanistiliitto+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. Jos haluat tarkastella t?t? keskustelua verkossa, siirry osoitteeseen https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/transhumanistiliitto/CAP4yCoX9ntizvKeSBUZ1-%2B0tT5BH%2BpSum68xFs1D0XEeMyD-oA%40mail.gmail.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Fri Aug 6 02:11:30 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 12:11:30 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Social Media Bans In-Reply-To: <8433BD08-512E-49A8-BC6B-213F84F87A58@gmail.com> References: <8433BD08-512E-49A8-BC6B-213F84F87A58@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Aug 2021 at 11:43, SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Distributing a video and speaking are not the same. It is perfectly > illegal to share many videos, which does not curtail my free speech at all. > > Advocating for something is not the same as sharing explicit videos of the > rape of children. > You?re saying that some types of information sharing should be allowed and other types should not be allowed, but only the types that should be allowed should be called ?free speech?. > SR Ballard > > On Aug 5, 2021, at 9:21 PM, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ? > > > > On Fri, 6 Aug 2021 at 11:03, SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> It?s not free speech to share child porn. It is free speech to talk about >> disgusting things. >> > > The only reason not to call it a limitation in free speech is if you think > child pornography should be limited but free speech should not, because > that would lead to a contradiction. > >> -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Fri Aug 6 02:23:31 2021 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2021 22:23:31 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Social Media Bans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I?m saying that speech means saying something, or a representation of saying something (written language, recorded speaking). Free speech should cover speech. It?s not that complicated. SR Ballard > On Aug 5, 2021, at 10:13 PM, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > > >> On Fri, 6 Aug 2021 at 11:43, SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >> Distributing a video and speaking are not the same. It is perfectly illegal to share many videos, which does not curtail my free speech at all. >> >> Advocating for something is not the same as sharing explicit videos of the rape of children. > > You?re saying that some types of information sharing should be allowed and other types should not be allowed, but only the types that should be allowed should be called ?free speech?. > >> >> SR Ballard >> >>>> On Aug 5, 2021, at 9:21 PM, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat wrote: >>>> >>> ? >> >>> >>> >>>> On Fri, 6 Aug 2021 at 11:03, SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >>>> It?s not free speech to share child porn. It is free speech to talk about disgusting things. >>> >>> The only reason not to call it a limitation in free speech is if you think child pornography should be limited but free speech should not, because that would lead to a contradiction. >>> -- >>> Stathis Papaioannou >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at maxmore.com Fri Aug 6 02:43:12 2021 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 02:43:12 +0000 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 215, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: <20210805185044.Horde.A1m0yRwQrPyRimQq1sKIJHW@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: , <20210805185044.Horde.A1m0yRwQrPyRimQq1sKIJHW@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: Thanks, Stuart. That was me and Spike. I'm going to try to post here more often. I've been busy lately writing two articles for the next issue of Cryonics, one on how to argue for life extension, and the other is part 2 of my "Getting Better" series. As I was writing them, I thought: "I really should put some of this onto the Extropy list to see if I can get from feedback from those smart people." It's too late for that this time, but expect me to ask free editorial work from you in future... I mean, expect me to welcome your valuable comments in future. --Max ________________________________ From: extropy-chat on behalf of Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 6:50 PM To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Cc: Stuart LaForge Subject: Re: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 215, Issue 1 Quoting extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org: > Message: 10 > Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2021 15:15:00 -0700 > From: > To: "'ExiMod'" , "'ExI chat list'" > > Cc: "'Cc:'" > Subject: Re: [ExI] Exi-Chat Restored now! > Message-ID: <004801d788b5$00cea600$026bf200$@rainier66.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Thanks ExiMod. Thanks Max. Life? is? goooooood? > > > > This is the second miracle this week! Earlier the image of the > virgin was given to a small group of campers. Do you doubters require proof? I have been too busy to post much lately, but I did miss all your voices in my head. Welcome back, ALL. And CHEERS to whoever paid the bill this time around! :-) Stuart LaForge _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Fri Aug 6 18:15:50 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 11:15:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Delaying Aging Would Bring Trillions of Dollars in Economic Gains, Study Finds In-Reply-To: References: <000901d78a1c$31d15a00$95740e00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Monty Python has so many great comedy bits. I remember as a Mormon missionary, there were a good dozen or so guys in my mission who loved to re-enact their favorite scenes from "Monty Python and the Holy Grail." When we were fortunate to be together we would do it with all of our youthful enthusiasm! Lol I just hope the surviving members of Monty Python actually come out with the final film that they have discussed. This uptight era could really use them! John On Thu, Aug 5, 2021 at 12:35 PM Max More via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > At least I'm not 37 and mistaken for older and for the other sex... > > King Arthur: Old woman. > Dennis: Man. > King Arthur: Man, sorry. What knight lives in that castle over there? > Dennis: I'm 37. > King Arthur: What? > Dennis: I'm 37. I'm not old. > King Arthur: Well I can't just call you 'man'. > Dennis: Well you could say "Dennis". > King Arthur: I didn't know you were called Dennis. > Dennis: Well you didn't bother to find out did you? > ------------------------------ > *From:* extropy-chat on behalf > of spike jones via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Thursday, August 5, 2021 10:06 AM > *To:* 'ExI chat list' > *Cc:* spike at rainier66.com > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Delaying Aging Would Bring Trillions of Dollars in > Economic Gains, Study Finds > > > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Max More via extropy-chat > > >?I'm 57 and cryonics is looking more and more likely for me. > > > > --Max > > > > > > Merely 57? Max you still have time for youthful indiscretions, me lad. > Just make sure Natasha is cool with it, better yet, in on it. > > > > Clearly you are a fine example of how careful attention to exercise and > diet can benefit the body and mind. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Fri Aug 6 22:14:37 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 15:14:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Protein_Folding_AI_Is_Making_a_=E2=80=98Once_in_?= =?utf-8?q?a_Generation=E2=80=99_Advance_in_Biology?= Message-ID: "Thanks to AI, we just got stunningly powerful tools to decode life. In two back -to-back papers last week, scientists at DeepMind and the University of Washington described deep learning-based methods to solve protein folding?the last step of executing the programming in our DNA, and a ?once in a generation advance .? "With the two studies, we?re entering a new world of predicting?and subsequently engineering or changing?the building blocks of life. Dr. Andrei Lupas, an evolutionary biologist at the Max Planck Institute for Developmental Biology, and a CASP judge, agrees : ?This will change medicine. It will change research,? he said. ?It will change bioengineering. It will change everything.? https://singularityhub.com/2021/07/20/new-protein-folding-ai-just-made-a-once-in-a-generation-advance-in-biology/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Fri Aug 6 07:30:09 2021 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 09:30:09 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Social Media Bans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't like social media bans. Of course a private company like Twitter or Facebook is and must remain free to ban whomever they want to ban, for any reason or no reason. But in a healthy ecosystem consumers must be free to switch to other providers. If there were alternatives, I would stop using Twitter and Facebook in protest. And THIS is the problem. We should build a fully decentralized internet where nobody can be banned. There are prototypes (I like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Scuttlebutt ) but they are very beta (actually alpha) and we consumers are too lazy to use them and help them achieve a critical mass. But we really should. On Thu, Aug 5, 2021 at 1:54 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: > > Today BAP (Bronze Age Pervert), a right wing influencer, was banned from Twitter, which has caused a bit or an uproar in the community. The creation and dissemination of media projects and memes, testimonials, eulogies increased exponentially. His ideas are being discussed more, and his iconography and catchphrases are ubiquitous. His dedicated fans have joined his telegram channel, over 10K in 12 hours. > > Do you feel these types of social media suspensions achieve their desired results? If not, what might be more effective? > > SR Ballard > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Fri Aug 6 22:54:28 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 15:54:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?US_=E2=80=98failed_miserably=E2=80=99_in_wargame?= =?utf-8?q?_reportedly_against_China_attack_on_Taiwan?= Message-ID: "The U.S. military ?failed miserably? in an October wargame scenario reportedly involving a battle for Taiwan, and now military leaders are looking at how to change the U.S. joint warfighting strategy, a top U.S. general revealed for the first time this week." How many of you think a war over Taiwan could happen within the next five years? And how many of you predict China will wait ten or even twenty years to mount an invasion? The U.S. and Taiwan in some ways have been caught with their pants down, and so from a CCP perspective, there are good reasons to attack within the relative short-term. But certainly a victory is more assured if they show long-term patience and continue to improve the quality and quantity of their war machine. But I suspect the war will happen much sooner rather than later, because Xi Jinping wants the history books to credit him with the conquest of Taiwan, and not someone else. Interestingly, two of their prominent generals stuck their necks out and wrote to various official CCP newspapers, stating that in their opinions that China would be taking a huge and unwarranted risk to go to war against America and her allies anytime in the near future. Senior U.S. Navy leadership believes there is an excellent chance China will attack by 2026. The CCP could build lots of hypersonic anti-ship missiles and drone torpedoes during that five year span of time. I suspect nuclear blackmail may be the ace card the CCP uses against Taiwan. The people of the small island nation should have followed Israel's example, and developed their own nuclear weapons deterrent. A U.S. president wanting to spare American cities, may decide at the last minute not to extend our nuclear umbrella over Taiwan, if the CCP nukes a major city there and then demands unconditional surrender. What a horrific scenario to consider... I am fascinated by this struggle between the slowly declining U.S. and the rising (though quite dysfunctional) China. I recommend everyone read "Stealth War," written by a retired Air Force general, which shows the level of subversion achieved by the CCP, not just by espionage and the stealing of our technology, but by so easily finding so many elites in our nation willing to cooperate with them, and essentially sell out their own country! Supposedly, the head of the CCP spy network in America defected to the U.S., and for months now he has been getting debriefed. According to reports, he handed over two terabytes of data about CCP activities, which included lists of those who had accepted bribes in return for betraying their country. I dearly hope this story is actually true, but we will see. This will be a titanic struggle over the coming years of this century, to see whether China and tyranny, or America and the democracies of the world, will be the dominant power. I hope that in time China will mellow out, and learn to live peacefully with the global community. The CCP leadership visualizes their 2049 anniversary of taking over China, with a scenario where by then they have both a much stronger economy and military than the United States, and they have usurped the American role over the world. https://americanmilitarynews.com/2021/07/us-failed-miserably-in-wargame-reportedly-against-china-attack-on-taiwan/ https://thediplomat.com/2020/02/stealth-war-how-the-us-can-counter-chinas-takeover-attempts/ https://www.amazon.com/Stealth-War-China-While-Americas/dp/0593084349 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Aug 6 09:36:01 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 10:36:01 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Delaying Aging Would Bring Trillions of Dollars in Economic Gains, Study Finds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 at 17:56, Max More via extropy-chat wrote: > > We told you so. > > Seriously, it's encouraging to see the "longevity dividend" idea get more attention. It should be a powerful tool to help people rethink their economic and research priorities. Can we please step on the accelerator with the anti-aging? I'm 57 and cryonics is looking more and more likely for me. > > --Max > ________________________________ Yes, anti-aging is becoming essential for the survival of humanity. Not just so we can live longer, healthier lives, though. I am encountering more and more articles about climate change that refer to ecological overshoot. In effect, saying that there is no solution to the problem without a wholesale change in the way humans look at living on this planet. And for the great majority of humanity that change in outlook will not happen because of the short lifespan of humans. They just don't think on the long-term scale of the necessary changes required. No generation wants to be the generation that has to give up all their lovely shiny toys. So they won't. Until the planet forcibly takes them away. By then the very survival of humanity itself will be questionable. BillK From pharos at gmail.com Fri Aug 6 12:13:33 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 13:13:33 +0100 Subject: [ExI] San Francisco Homeless Trial Scheme Message-ID: For the last six months, a San Francisco-based nonprofit that works with people experiencing homelessness tried a simple experiment: If it gave some people a small basic income of $500 a month, how much could it help? With a limited amount of money from donors for the pilot?$50,000?it decided to give 15 people $500 a month for 6 months. The group asked its volunteers to nominate people for support, and then selected a small cohort based on factors like diversity, how long someone had been experiencing homelessness, and ongoing engagement with the Miracle Friends program. People who were currently struggling with addiction or in early recovery weren?t eligible. With the caveat that the funds shouldn?t be spent on drugs or other illicit activity, participants could spend the money however they needed. The program didn?t work perfectly. But overall, it was enough of a clear success that the nonprofit is now raising money to continue and expand the program. -------------------- The trial was very small but successful. They selected homeless people who needed a bit of help but weren't drug addicts. And now they want to do a bigger project. That's the way to do it! Well done! BillK From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Aug 7 04:38:00 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 21:38:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Hong Kong has a 'meme museum' that lets visitors relive internet history in 4D Message-ID: "The exhibition runs through early September and is being touted as the world's first Meme Museum. It features seven main areas that showcase the internet's most renowned inside jokes, according to K11 Art Mall's Instagram page. The seven-story mall in Tsim Sha Tsui looks to "bring art back into everyday living" by featuring exhibits on its shopping premises. The exhibition was launched in July with 9GAG, a Hong Kong-based website known as a meme-sharing platform. " "Visitors can walk down a "time tunnel" to see the history of memes via rows of TV screens. The displays include some viral Hong Kong-style jokes and also honors worldwide classics like the doge, "distracted boyfriend," and Rick rolls. " https://www.insider.com/meme-museum-art-mall-exhibition-hong-kong-disappointed-cricket-fan-2021-8 More recent memes get the spotlight, too, such as Japanese singer Piko Taro's pen-pineapple-apple-pen and the "disappointed cricket fan," who tweeted his delight at being featured. A photo of the Pakistani man went viral over his irate reaction to a dropped ball in the 2019 Cricket World Cup. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Aug 6 13:52:07 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 06:52:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?US_=E2=80=98failed_miserably=E2=80=99_in_wargame?= =?utf-8?q?_reportedly_against_China_attack_on_Taiwan?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 6, 2021, 12:52 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > How many of you think a war over Taiwan could happen within the next five > years? And how many of you predict China will wait ten or even twenty years > to mount an invasion? > Could happen, sure. Is likely to happen, no, for the US now holds a weapon more terrible than nukes. Should China offer an excuse like this, the US can simply void all debt it owes China. This would cripple China in a heartbeat, especially once other nations follow suit. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Aug 6 13:55:18 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 06:55:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] San Francisco Homeless Trial Scheme In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 6, 2021, 5:16 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > With a limited amount of money from donors for the pilot?$50,000?it > decided to give 15 people $500 a month for 6 months. > Where did the other $5,000 go? > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Aug 6 14:41:06 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 09:41:06 -0500 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?US_=E2=80=98failed_miserably=E2=80=99_in_wargame?= =?utf-8?q?_reportedly_against_China_attack_on_Taiwan?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just about everybody knows more about economics and business than me. Doesn't stop me from having an opinion. I think big wars are over, esp. the ones about territories. The world is now economically intertwined to the point where it is not realistic or economically rational to go to war with trading partners. If the USA uses military action in East Asia it will follow all the other stupid things the military has advised us to do, and we suffered trillions of dollars and thousands of lives lost as a result. The military has extremely strong support in DC - the Eisenhower 'military complex' and wants money and jobs to justify its existence. This has to be strenuously resisted. Yeah, I know, the military has advised us not to do some of the things the White House had them do, so maybe they are not totally irrational. bill w On Fri, Aug 6, 2021 at 8:54 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Aug 6, 2021, 12:52 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> How many of you think a war over Taiwan could happen within the next five >> years? And how many of you predict China will wait ten or even twenty years >> to mount an invasion? >> > > Could happen, sure. Is likely to happen, no, for the US now holds a > weapon more terrible than nukes. > > Should China offer an excuse like this, the US can simply void all debt it > owes China. This would cripple China in a heartbeat, especially once other > nations follow suit. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Aug 7 05:57:41 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 22:57:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Crypto executives and companies are flocking to Singapore to take advantage of its crypto-friendly regulations and growth potential Message-ID: "As the rest of the world cracks down on cryptocurrencies, the island nation of Singapore is becoming a hotspot for global crypto companies and executives with its warmer regulations and license exemptions. Binance, the world's largest crypto exchange by trading volume , is one of the most prominent groups to set up shop in the country, with CEO Changpeng Zhao having moved to the city-state in recent years. In the rest of the world, the exchange has faced a flurry of clampdowns from various governments, largely over concerns of unregulated activity that has the potential to be used for money-laundering or terrorist funding. Thailand, Japan, the EU, Canada, and the US are all probing or taking action against Binance, and the exchange was banned from the UK in June. But crypto players like Binance have found Singapore to be a paradise of opportunity, even while a regulations storm looms over the industry in other parts of the globe." https://www.insider.com/singapore-becomes-hotspot-for-crypto-groups-binance-amid-global-crackdown-2021-7 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Aug 7 06:01:51 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 23:01:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Photos show how South Korea's plummeting birth rate has left hundreds of abandoned and crumbling schools throughout the country Message-ID: "This year, the country recorded a grim new milestone: 2021 was the first time in the country's recorded history that the number of deaths outpaced the number of births. Data from the World Bank shows the country's annual population growth rate has fallen steadily over the last 60 years, dropping from 2.96% growth in 1961 to 0.13% growth in 2020." https://www.insider.com/south-korea-birth-rate-abandoned-schools-photos-2021-7#not-all-provinces-are-leaving-their-abandoned-school-buildings-in-decay-and-disrepair-7 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Aug 6 16:20:40 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 09:20:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Photos show how South Korea's plummeting birth rate has left hundreds of abandoned and crumbling schools throughout the country In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One way to combat this: develop and deploy tech to substantially reduce the resource and labor requirements of raising a child. Another, nearer-term method is resource redistribution politics, in this case called "natalist politics". This is sometimes a side effect of other politics; for example, reducing homelessness increases those who want to have children (presence of secure housing being one of the factors influencing desire to have children). On Fri, Aug 6, 2021 at 8:03 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > "This year, the country recorded a grim new milestone: 2021 was the first > time > in > the country's recorded history that the number of deaths outpaced the > number of births. > > Data from the World Bank > shows the > country's annual population growth rate has fallen steadily over the last > 60 years, dropping from 2.96% growth in 1961 to 0.13% growth in 2020." > > > https://www.insider.com/south-korea-birth-rate-abandoned-schools-photos-2021-7#not-all-provinces-are-leaving-their-abandoned-school-buildings-in-decay-and-disrepair-7 > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 6 16:58:39 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 09:58:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?US_=E2=80=98failed_miserably=E2=80=99_in_wargame?= =?utf-8?q?_reportedly_against_China_attack_on_Taiwan?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007c01d78ae4$4e45e8e0$ead1baa0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of John Grigg via extropy-chat Sent: Friday, August 6, 2021 3:54 PM Subject: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against China attack on Taiwan >?"The U.S. military ?failed miserably? in an October wargame scenario reportedly involving a battle for Taiwan, and now military leaders are looking at how to change the U.S. joint warfighting strategy, a top U.S. general revealed for the first time this week."? Hi John. The outcome of a wargame is classified as all hell, for understandable reasons. The fact that this leaked, and leaked from the top, is sending an important message. John, what message do you perceive please? That?s right. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 6 17:05:44 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 10:05:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?US_=E2=80=98failed_miserably=E2=80=99_in_wargame?= =?utf-8?q?_reportedly_against_China_attack_on_Taiwan?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008501d78ae5$4b835100$e289f300$@rainier66.com> ? On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against China attack on Taiwan On Fri, Aug 6, 2021, 12:52 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat > wrote: How many of you think a war over Taiwan could happen within the next five years? ? >?Could happen, sure. Is likely to happen, no, for the US now holds a weapon more terrible than nukes. >?Should China offer an excuse like this, the US can simply void all debt it owes China. This would cripple China in a heartbeat, especially once other nations follow suit. Adrian, this is one scenario, however should the US void its China debt, the Chinese stop lending money to the US. Other nations follow suit, for they realize the level of risk on those loans exceeds the payback. US buyers of US debt recognize the risk, and they too stop lending to the US government. Then what? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Aug 6 17:17:09 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 12:17:09 -0500 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?US_=E2=80=98failed_miserably=E2=80=99_in_wargame?= =?utf-8?q?_reportedly_against_China_attack_on_Taiwan?= In-Reply-To: <008501d78ae5$4b835100$e289f300$@rainier66.com> References: <008501d78ae5$4b835100$e289f300$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Then what? spike Of course you know the answer: outgo has to equal income. bill w On Fri, Aug 6, 2021 at 12:07 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?* *On Behalf Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against > China attack on Taiwan > > > > On Fri, Aug 6, 2021, 12:52 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > How many of you think a war over Taiwan could happen within the next five > years? ? > > > > >?Could happen, sure. Is likely to happen, no, for the US now holds a > weapon more terrible than nukes. > > > > >?Should China offer an excuse like this, the US can simply void all debt > it owes China. This would cripple China in a heartbeat, especially once > other nations follow suit. > > > > > > Adrian, this is one scenario, however should the US void its China debt, > the Chinese stop lending money to the US. Other nations follow suit, for > they realize the level of risk on those loans exceeds the payback. US > buyers of US debt recognize the risk, and they too stop lending to the US > government. Then what? > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 6 17:27:53 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 10:27:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?US_=E2=80=98failed_miserably=E2=80=99_in_wargame?= =?utf-8?q?_reportedly_against_China_attack_on_Taiwan?= In-Reply-To: References: <008501d78ae5$4b835100$e289f300$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00ae01d78ae8$63a2ac10$2ae80430$@rainier66.com> ?. On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against China attack on Taiwan Then what? spike Of course you know the answer: outgo has to equal income. bill w Ja. But how does that happen please sir? The US national debt is well-known, the deficit is well-known. The fact that the US fed hasn?t balanced a budget in decades demonstrates that it will not and cannot. This leads to a clear message being sent to Taiwan: if China attacks, the US military will not come to your aid. It will not because it cannot. We do not have the resources and cannot risk China refusing to lend the fed the funds it needs just to meet normal operating budgets in peacetime. What part of that argument is not perfectly clear please? Anyone? Anyone? Beuuuullerrrr? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Aug 6 17:35:46 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 12:35:46 -0500 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?US_=E2=80=98failed_miserably=E2=80=99_in_wargame?= =?utf-8?q?_reportedly_against_China_attack_on_Taiwan?= In-Reply-To: <00ae01d78ae8$63a2ac10$2ae80430$@rainier66.com> References: <008501d78ae5$4b835100$e289f300$@rainier66.com> <00ae01d78ae8$63a2ac10$2ae80430$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: What are you willing to bet, Spike, that we won't have some sort of military response, just to show that we honor our commitments, however stupidly made? But going to war over Taiwan would be the dumbest thing we ever did. We need to find some way to just let China have it, which they say they already do bill w On Fri, Aug 6, 2021 at 12:29 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?.* *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against > China attack on Taiwan > > > > Then what? > > > > spike Of course you know the answer: outgo has to equal income. bill w > > > > Ja. But how does that happen please sir? The US national debt is > well-known, the deficit is well-known. The fact that the US fed hasn?t > balanced a budget in decades demonstrates that it will not and cannot. > > This leads to a clear message being sent to Taiwan: if China attacks, the > US military will not come to your aid. It will not because it cannot. We > do not have the resources and cannot risk China refusing to lend the fed > the funds it needs just to meet normal operating budgets in peacetime. > > What part of that argument is not perfectly clear please? Anyone? > Anyone? Beuuuullerrrr? > > spike > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 6 17:39:45 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 10:39:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?US_=E2=80=98failed_miserably=E2=80=99_in_wargame?= =?utf-8?q?_reportedly_against_China_attack_on_Taiwan?= In-Reply-To: <00ae01d78ae8$63a2ac10$2ae80430$@rainier66.com> References: <008501d78ae5$4b835100$e289f300$@rainier66.com> <00ae01d78ae8$63a2ac10$2ae80430$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00b501d78aea$0c3d18f0$24b74ad0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Sent: Friday, August 6, 2021 10:28 AM To: 'ExI chat list' Cc: 'Cc:' Subject: RE: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against China attack on Taiwan ?. On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against China attack on Taiwan Then what? spike Of course you know the answer: outgo has to equal income. bill w >?Ja. But how does that happen please sir? The US national debt is well-known, the deficit is well-known. ?What part of that argument is not perfectly clear please? Anyone? Anyone? Beuuuullerrrr? spike BillW, there is an excellent movie that came out several years ago called Flags of Our Fathers. It was a war movie and is rough going, but it isn?t only about that. There is a companion movie called Letters from Iwo Jima which in some ways is even better, that same struggle from the Japanese POV. Both excellent films. In Flags, much of the drama happens in the states, where the four guys who raised the American flag over Iwo were paraded about for PR. But one of the four was killed in subsequent fighting, so they substituted another guy who suffered a mental breakdown as a result. The reason I mention it is that the people back home were desperate to get Americans to buy war bonds. The US military had guys in the field under attack in the Pacific, yet funds were so low they couldn?t mount effective attacks. So? the flag raisers encouraged Americans to buy war bonds to finish out the war. The US is now spending money and going into debt faster than it was during the war. But we aren?t having desperate war bond drives now. BillW, what changed please? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Aug 6 17:42:39 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 10:42:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?US_=E2=80=98failed_miserably=E2=80=99_in_wargame?= =?utf-8?q?_reportedly_against_China_attack_on_Taiwan?= In-Reply-To: <00ae01d78ae8$63a2ac10$2ae80430$@rainier66.com> References: <008501d78ae5$4b835100$e289f300$@rainier66.com> <00ae01d78ae8$63a2ac10$2ae80430$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 6, 2021 at 10:29 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?.* *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against > China attack on Taiwan > > > > Then what? > > > > spike Of course you know the answer: outgo has to equal income. bill w > > > > Ja. But how does that happen please sir? The US national debt is > well-known, the deficit is well-known. The fact that the US fed hasn?t > balanced a budget in decades demonstrates that it will not and cannot. > > This leads to a clear message being sent to Taiwan: if China attacks, the > US military will not come to your aid. It will not because it cannot. We > do not have the resources and cannot risk China refusing to lend the fed > the funds it needs just to meet normal operating budgets in peacetime. > > What part of that argument is not perfectly clear please? Anyone? > Anyone? Beuuuullerrrr? > The part where you assign to the President and Congress (who would ultimately assign the war), that sort of foresight. Military response would come anyway, long term economic consequences be damned. They might consider looting China to replace loans. More likely, they just won't care. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Aug 6 17:53:03 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 12:53:03 -0500 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?US_=E2=80=98failed_miserably=E2=80=99_in_wargame?= =?utf-8?q?_reportedly_against_China_attack_on_Taiwan?= In-Reply-To: <00b501d78aea$0c3d18f0$24b74ad0$@rainier66.com> References: <008501d78ae5$4b835100$e289f300$@rainier66.com> <00ae01d78ae8$63a2ac10$2ae80430$@rainier66.com> <00b501d78aea$0c3d18f0$24b74ad0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: But we aren?t having desperate war bond drives now. BillW, what changed please? spike How do you get people interested in over 20 trillion dollars of debt? A war they can understand. People are dying. The enemy is winning.The debt has no urgency about it. Thus the one word answer to you is: complacency. Part of that is living for the moment. How many of us have adequate retirement money? Small number, I think. That future is just too far off for people to imagine. So in the end, it's a failure of imagination. AGree? bill w On Fri, Aug 6, 2021 at 12:43 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* spike at rainier66.com > *Sent:* Friday, August 6, 2021 10:28 AM > *To:* 'ExI chat list' > *Cc:* 'Cc:' > *Subject:* RE: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against > China attack on Taiwan > > > > > > > > *?.* *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against > China attack on Taiwan > > > > Then what? > > > > spike Of course you know the answer: outgo has to equal income. bill w > > > > >?Ja. But how does that happen please sir? The US national debt is > well-known, the deficit is well-known. ?What part of that argument is not > perfectly clear please? Anyone? Anyone? Beuuuullerrrr? spike > > > > BillW, there is an excellent movie that came out several years ago called > Flags of Our Fathers. It was a war movie and is rough going, but it isn?t > only about that. There is a companion movie called Letters from Iwo Jima > which in some ways is even better, that same struggle from the Japanese > POV. Both excellent films. > > In Flags, much of the drama happens in the states, where the four guys who > raised the American flag over Iwo were paraded about for PR. But one of > the four was killed in subsequent fighting, so they substituted another guy > who suffered a mental breakdown as a result. > > The reason I mention it is that the people back home were desperate to get > Americans to buy war bonds. The US military had guys in the field under > attack in the Pacific, yet funds were so low they couldn?t mount effective > attacks. So? the flag raisers encouraged Americans to buy war bonds to > finish out the war. > > The US is now spending money and going into debt faster than it was during > the war. But we aren?t having desperate war bond drives now. > > BillW, what changed please? > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 6 17:59:18 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 10:59:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?US_=E2=80=98failed_miserably=E2=80=99_in_wargame?= =?utf-8?q?_reportedly_against_China_attack_on_Taiwan?= In-Reply-To: References: <008501d78ae5$4b835100$e289f300$@rainier66.com> <00ae01d78ae8$63a2ac10$2ae80430$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002601d78aec$c76c7dd0$56457970$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against China attack on Taiwan >?What are you willing to bet, Spike, that we won't have some sort of military response, just to show that we honor our commitments, however stupidly made? But going to war over Taiwan would be the dumbest thing we ever did. We need to find some way to just let China have it, which they say they already do bill w Billw, I would bet that the US would have no sort of military response, not because we don?t want to, but because we cannot. We don?t have the resources. The economic laws of gravity apply to the USA the same as other countries. We don?t get a free pass just because we have capitalism. I agree that we can?t go to war with China over Taiwan. We cannot. The fact that the results of those war games leaked, from the top, tells me, tells the USA, tells China, tells Taiwan, tells the rest of the world that the US will protest but will do nothing militarily if China grabs its opportunity. We won?t even stop begging China to lend money. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 6 18:05:42 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 11:05:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?US_=E2=80=98failed_miserably=E2=80=99_in_wargame?= =?utf-8?q?_reportedly_against_China_attack_on_Taiwan?= In-Reply-To: References: <008501d78ae5$4b835100$e289f300$@rainier66.com> <00ae01d78ae8$63a2ac10$2ae80430$@rainier66.com> <00b501d78aea$0c3d18f0$24b74ad0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002d01d78aed$ac9de470$05d9ad50$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Friday, August 6, 2021 10:53 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: Re: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against China attack on Taiwan >>?But we aren?t having desperate war bond drives now. >>?BillW, what changed please? spike >?How do you get people interested in over 20 trillion dollars of debt? A war they can understand. People are dying. The enemy is winning.The debt has no urgency about it. Thus the one word answer to you is: complacency. Part of that is living for the moment. How many of us have adequate retirement money? Small number, I think. That future is just too far off for people to imagine. So in the end, it's a failure of imagination. AGree? bill w Disagree at least partially. Back in the old days, the federal government debt limit was taken seriously. Now it is not. It is now treated as a political football or an inconvenience or a legal relic of times past, rather than what it was designed to do: pressure the Fed to balance its damn books, as it must do, as state governments must do, as you and I must do. OK. So. That failed, catastrophically. To me that is a plain admission that the US Fed will not honor its military commitments and will eventually default on its debts as well, both domestic and foreign. It doesn?t move me a bit to argue that it has never done this before, so it never will. It is perfectly clear to me that it will not honor those commitments because it cannot. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at maxmore.com Fri Aug 6 18:34:05 2021 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 18:34:05 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Delaying Aging Would Bring Trillions of Dollars in Economic Gains, Study Finds In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: No doubt you are seeing more and more articles claiming ecological overshoot. The production of exaggerated, hysterical, and flat-out wrong articles is the biggest growth industry. The reality is different. I have a long reading list if you want to know more. --Max ________________________________ From: extropy-chat on behalf of BillK via extropy-chat Sent: Friday, August 6, 2021 2:36 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: BillK Subject: Re: [ExI] Delaying Aging Would Bring Trillions of Dollars in Economic Gains, Study Finds On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 at 17:56, Max More via extropy-chat wrote: > > We told you so. > > Seriously, it's encouraging to see the "longevity dividend" idea get more attention. It should be a powerful tool to help people rethink their economic and research priorities. Can we please step on the accelerator with the anti-aging? I'm 57 and cryonics is looking more and more likely for me. > > --Max > ________________________________ Yes, anti-aging is becoming essential for the survival of humanity. Not just so we can live longer, healthier lives, though. I am encountering more and more articles about climate change that refer to ecological overshoot. In effect, saying that there is no solution to the problem without a wholesale change in the way humans look at living on this planet. And for the great majority of humanity that change in outlook will not happen because of the short lifespan of humans. They just don't think on the long-term scale of the necessary changes required. No generation wants to be the generation that has to give up all their lovely shiny toys. So they won't. Until the planet forcibly takes them away. By then the very survival of humanity itself will be questionable. BillK _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Aug 6 19:03:22 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 14:03:22 -0500 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?US_=E2=80=98failed_miserably=E2=80=99_in_wargame?= =?utf-8?q?_reportedly_against_China_attack_on_Taiwan?= In-Reply-To: <002d01d78aed$ac9de470$05d9ad50$@rainier66.com> References: <008501d78ae5$4b835100$e289f300$@rainier66.com> <00ae01d78ae8$63a2ac10$2ae80430$@rainier66.com> <00b501d78aea$0c3d18f0$24b74ad0$@rainier66.com> <002d01d78aed$ac9de470$05d9ad50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: We probably have as many submarines as there are humpback whales - enough missiles to darken the Sun. Just what resources do we lack? We use existing military personnel to carry out attacks so no extra dollars there. What resources are you saying we lack? And I don't see the connection between not balancing the books and failures to meet military obligations. bill w On Fri, Aug 6, 2021 at 1:07 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Friday, August 6, 2021 10:53 AM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against > China attack on Taiwan > > > > >>?But we aren?t having desperate war bond drives now. > > >>?BillW, what changed please? > > spike > > >?How do you get people interested in over 20 trillion dollars of debt? > A war they can understand. People are dying. The enemy is winning.The > debt has no urgency about it. Thus the one word answer to you is: > complacency. Part of that is living for the moment. How many of us have > adequate retirement money? Small number, I think. That future is just too > far off for people to imagine. So in the end, it's a failure of > imagination. AGree? > > bill w > > Disagree at least partially. Back in the old days, the federal government > debt limit was taken seriously. Now it is not. It is now treated as a > political football or an inconvenience or a legal relic of times past, > rather than what it was designed to do: pressure the Fed to balance its > damn books, as it must do, as state governments must do, as you and I must > do. > > OK. So. That failed, catastrophically. To me that is a plain admission > that the US Fed will not honor its military commitments and will eventually > default on its debts as well, both domestic and foreign. It doesn?t move > me a bit to argue that it has never done this before, so it never will. It > is perfectly clear to me that it will not honor those commitments because > it cannot. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Aug 6 19:09:44 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 14:09:44 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Delaying Aging Would Bring Trillions of Dollars in Economic Gains, Study Finds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The production of exaggerated, hysterical, and flat-out wrong articles is the biggest growth industry. Max Maybe we just have too much media. Journals of all sorts exist in incredible numbers and will publish nearly anything, most of which is unreplicable trash (in psych, anyway). All sorts of media has been filling the world with 'facts' and 'data' and I am getting numerous requests on Quora asking me to tell them how to tell what's true and what's false, and how to learn critical thinking abilities, how to detect biases, and all the rest. It is no wonder to me that any crazy, paranoid theory can find adherents. Who can tell it's crazy and paranoid? Apparently not many of us. bill w On Fri, Aug 6, 2021 at 1:36 PM Max More via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > No doubt you are seeing more and more articles claiming ecological > overshoot. The production of exaggerated, hysterical, and flat-out wrong > articles is the biggest growth industry. > > The reality is different. I have a long reading list if you want to know > more. > > --Max > ------------------------------ > *From:* extropy-chat on behalf > of BillK via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Friday, August 6, 2021 2:36 AM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* BillK > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Delaying Aging Would Bring Trillions of Dollars in > Economic Gains, Study Finds > > On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 at 17:56, Max More via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > We told you so. > > > > Seriously, it's encouraging to see the "longevity dividend" idea get > more attention. It should be a powerful tool to help people rethink their > economic and research priorities. Can we please step on the accelerator > with the anti-aging? I'm 57 and cryonics is looking more and more likely > for me. > > > > --Max > > ________________________________ > > > Yes, anti-aging is becoming essential for the survival of humanity. > Not just so we can live longer, healthier lives, though. > > I am encountering more and more articles about climate change that > refer to ecological overshoot. In effect, saying that there is no > solution to the problem without a wholesale change in the way humans > look at living on this planet. And for the great majority of humanity > that change in outlook will not happen because of the short lifespan > of humans. They just don't think on the long-term scale of the > necessary changes required. No generation wants to be the generation > that has to give up all their lovely shiny toys. So they won't. > Until the planet forcibly takes them away. > By then the very survival of humanity itself will be questionable. > > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Fri Aug 6 19:27:41 2021 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 12:27:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?US_=E2=80=98failed_miserably=E2=80=99_in_wargame?= =?utf-8?q?_reportedly_against_China_attack_on_Taiwan?= In-Reply-To: <008501d78ae5$4b835100$e289f300$@rainier66.com> References: <008501d78ae5$4b835100$e289f300$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Aug 6, 2021, at 10:07 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > ? On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against China attack on Taiwan > > On Fri, Aug 6, 2021, 12:52 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote: > How many of you think a war over Taiwan could happen within the next five years? ? > > >?Could happen, sure. Is likely to happen, no, for the US now holds a weapon more terrible than nukes. > > >?Should China offer an excuse like this, the US can simply void all debt it owes China. This would cripple China in a heartbeat, especially once other nations follow suit. > > Adrian, this is one scenario, however should the US void its China debt, the Chinese stop lending money to the US. Other nations follow suit, for they realize the level of risk on those loans exceeds the payback. US buyers of US debt recognize the risk, and they too stop lending to the US government. Then what? The funny thing about this is that the Chinese government has been funding the US government for a long time now. The loans help the US government to keep its massive corporate welfare programs going, such as defense spending and bailouts for big capital. Right-wing Sino-phobes couldn?t hope for a better enemy. Regards, Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 6 19:50:29 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 12:50:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?US_=E2=80=98failed_miserably=E2=80=99_in_wargame?= =?utf-8?q?_reportedly_against_China_attack_on_Taiwan?= In-Reply-To: References: <008501d78ae5$4b835100$e289f300$@rainier66.com> <00ae01d78ae8$63a2ac10$2ae80430$@rainier66.com> <00b501d78aea$0c3d18f0$24b74ad0$@rainier66.com> <002d01d78aed$ac9de470$05d9ad50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007701d78afc$4fac90e0$ef05b2a0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against China attack on Taiwan We probably have as many submarines as there are humpback whales - enough missiles to darken the Sun? Eh, no sir. We do not. The exact number is not published of course, but if we started popping these things off, we would need money to replace them, lots of it. >?Just what resources do we lack? Enough money to replace that which we fired. We also lack the industrial capability to build the stuff we wrecked with nuclear bombs. China is the world?s manufacturer of household goods. We not only do not have replacement capacity, we cannot build it now because of environmental regulations which do not apply to China. >? We use existing military personnel to carry out attacks so no extra dollars there. What resources are you saying we lack? We can attack if we wish, but then what? >?And I don't see the connection between not balancing the books and failures to meet military obligations. bill w I fear too many Americans do not see that connection Billw, far too many. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Aug 6 20:18:09 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 13:18:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?US_=E2=80=98failed_miserably=E2=80=99_in_wargame?= =?utf-8?q?_reportedly_against_China_attack_on_Taiwan?= In-Reply-To: <007701d78afc$4fac90e0$ef05b2a0$@rainier66.com> References: <008501d78ae5$4b835100$e289f300$@rainier66.com> <00ae01d78ae8$63a2ac10$2ae80430$@rainier66.com> <00b501d78aea$0c3d18f0$24b74ad0$@rainier66.com> <002d01d78aed$ac9de470$05d9ad50$@rainier66.com> <007701d78afc$4fac90e0$ef05b2a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 6, 2021 at 12:52 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against > China attack on Taiwan > > > > We probably have as many submarines as there are humpback whales - enough > missiles to darken the Sun? > > > > Eh, no sir. We do not. The exact number is not published of course, but > if we started popping these things off, we would need money to replace > them, lots of it. > We do not have enough nuclear munitions to seriously affect the Sun itself, even if we could propel them there. The Sun is larger than a lot of people realize. We do have enough nuclear munitions to cause nuclear winter - darkening Earth's skies, blotting out the Sun's rays from reaching the Earth's surface. This is not literally darkening the Sun, but it accomplishes the same result as far as the vast majority of the human population is concerned. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 6 21:12:01 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 14:12:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?US_=E2=80=98failed_miserably=E2=80=99_in_wargame?= =?utf-8?q?_reportedly_against_China_attack_on_Taiwan?= In-Reply-To: References: <008501d78ae5$4b835100$e289f300$@rainier66.com> <00ae01d78ae8$63a2ac10$2ae80430$@rainier66.com> <00b501d78aea$0c3d18f0$24b74ad0$@rainier66.com> <002d01d78aed$ac9de470$05d9ad50$@rainier66.com> <007701d78afc$4fac90e0$ef05b2a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001001d78b07$b37f1100$1a7d3300$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat ? >>?Eh, no sir. We do not. The exact number is not published of course, but if we started popping these things off, we would need money to replace them, lots of it. ? >?We do have enough nuclear munitions to cause nuclear winter - darkening Earth's skies, blotting out the Sun's rays from reaching the Earth's surface. This is not literally darkening the Sun, but it accomplishes the same result as far as the vast majority of the human population is concerned? Adrian That?s all the more reason to not fire them. We would cause nuclear winter, which would cause widespread crop failures and mass starvation, resulting in anemic tax revenues, and no China to lend us the money to rebuild our nuclear stockpiles. Save the nukes. They are an irreplaceable resource. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Aug 6 21:32:22 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 14:32:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?US_=E2=80=98failed_miserably=E2=80=99_in_wargame?= =?utf-8?q?_reportedly_against_China_attack_on_Taiwan?= In-Reply-To: <001001d78b07$b37f1100$1a7d3300$@rainier66.com> References: <008501d78ae5$4b835100$e289f300$@rainier66.com> <00ae01d78ae8$63a2ac10$2ae80430$@rainier66.com> <00b501d78aea$0c3d18f0$24b74ad0$@rainier66.com> <002d01d78aed$ac9de470$05d9ad50$@rainier66.com> <007701d78afc$4fac90e0$ef05b2a0$@rainier66.com> <001001d78b07$b37f1100$1a7d3300$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 6, 2021 at 2:13 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > That?s all the more reason to not fire them. > Well, yes. It has long been known that there are reasons more important than economics to avoid a nuclear war. (Insofar as, the consequences include a breakdown of world financial markets, at which point most forms of economics become irrelevant. The US government's debt to the Chinese government becomes moot if both governments cease to functionally exist.) As the movie Wargames put it regarding the "game" of global thermonuclear war: "The only winning move is not to play." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Aug 7 16:37:01 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2021 09:37:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?New_=E2=80=98Universal_Switch=E2=80=99_Lets_Scie?= =?utf-8?q?ntists_Fine-Tune_Gene_Therapy?= Message-ID: A very exciting development... "It?s not that gene therapy was designed to be a rule-breaker, but until now, scientists haven?t been able to effectively control its strength. Once unleashed into the body, the treatment replaces a defective gene with a healthy one, allowing the body to produce functional proteins. But sometimes the level of those proteins are too low?essentially nixing any therapeutic effects?and other times too high, poisoning the cells they?re supposed to treat. Last week, scientists finally gained control of the technology with a genius strategy. A team from the Children?s Hospital of Philadelphia (CHOP) tapped into a natural process during gene expression?when genes make proteins?and hijacked it to make a ?dimmer? that controls the strength of potentially any gene therapy. Dubbed Xon, the on switch is easy: just pop a simple drug, one that?s already in later-stage clinical trials. The drug then works with the team?s custom-designed switch to turn on the therapy throughout the body?the larger the dose, the stronger the gene expression. As the body metabolizes the drug, the dimmer gradually turns off the treatment. Need more protein? Take another pill. In mice, the team fine-tuned the expression of proteins that help treat anemia in chronic kidney disease, upped the level of a protein that protects against a type of dementia, and controlled the strength of CRISPR for editing genes in the liver. ?We?re taking the field of gene therapy to an entirely new level where fine-tuned dosing is required for safety, utility, and success,? said senior author Dr. Beverly L. Davidson." https://singularityhub.com/2021/08/03/new-universal-switch-lets-scientists-fine-tune-gene-therapy/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Aug 7 16:41:55 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2021 09:41:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Form_Energy=E2=80=99s_New_Low-Cost=2C_Iron-Air_B?= =?utf-8?q?attery_Runs_for_100_Hours?= Message-ID: In the Philippines, a solar power home package can be purchased for only around six hundred dollars. Often two of them are enough to power a home. I look forward to being free from the local power grid, where electricity is twice the price it was back in America. "Finding a way to store large amounts of energy at low cost will be vital if we want to shift our grids to renewable energy. A new iron-air battery that can deliver power for 100 hours at one-tenth the cost of lithium ion could be the key. Rapid improvements in the cost and capacity of lithium-ion batteries are transforming the transport sector, helping electric vehicles go toe-to-toe with gas-powered cars. Prices have dropped so low that lithium-ion batteries increasingly make sense for large-scale applications, such as storing excess renewable energy for when the sun doesn?t shine or the wind doesn?t blow. But there?s one place where they?re still of little use: storing energy for multiple days. This is crucial, because a grid reliant on large amounts of renewables doesn?t only have to contend with daily variations in sun and wind?a major storm can block out the sun or an extended period of calm can bring turbines to a halt for days at a time. A secretive startup backed by Bill Gates? Breakthrough Energy Ventures thinks it may have the answer, though. Form Energy , which was co-founded by the creator of Tesla?s Powerwall battery, Mateo Jaramillo, and MIT battery guru Yet-Ming Chiang, has unveiled a new battery design that essentially relies on a process of ?reversible rusting? to provide multi-day energy storage at ultra-low costs. ?With this technology, we are tackling the biggest barrier to deep decarbonization: making renewable energy available when and where it?s needed, even during multiple days of extreme weather or grid outages,? Jaramillo said in a press release . The company?s batteries are each about the size of a washing machine, and are filled with iron pellets and a water-based electrolyte similar to that used in AA batteries. To discharge, the battery breathes in oxygen from the air, converting the pellets to iron oxide, or rust, and producing electricity in the process. To charge, the application of a current converts the rust back into iron and expels the oxygen. The key to their approach is the low cost of the constituent materials. Today?s lithium-ion batteries cost $50 to $80 per kilowatt-hour thanks to the expensive minerals required to make them, like nickel, cobalt, lithium, and manganese. According to the *Wall Street Journal *, Form can make theirs for just $20 per kilowatt-hour, and they will be able to provide power for 100 to 150 hours, depending on the configuration. That?s significant, because recent research in *Joule* found that below this cost, the combination of energy storage and renewables could provide reliable baseload power 100 percent of the time in places with abundant renewable energy, like Texas and Arizona, making it possible to completely do away with fossil fuel power plants." https://singularityhub.com/2021/08/02/form-energys-new-low-cost-iron-based-battery-runs-for-100-hours/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Aug 7 16:56:52 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2021 09:56:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?DeepMind=E2=80=99s_Vibrant_New_Virtual_World_Tra?= =?utf-8?q?ins_Flexible_AI_With_Endless_Play?= Message-ID: A major step forward for A.I. development? "Last year , DeepMind researchers wrote that future AI developers may spend less time programming algorithms and more time generating rich virtual worlds in which to train them. In a new paper released this week on the preprint server arXiv, it would seem they?re taking the latter part of that prediction very seriously. The paper?s authors said they?ve created an endlessly challenging virtual playground for AI. The world, called XLand, is a vibrant video game managed by an AI overlord and populated by algorithms that must learn the skills to navigate it. The game-managing AI keeps an eye on what the game-playing algorithms are learning and automatically generates new worlds, games, and tasks to continuously confront them with new experiences. The team said some veteran algorithms faced 3.4 million unique tasks while playing around 700,000 games in 4,000 XLand worlds. But most notably, they developed a general skillset not related to any one game, but useful in all of them. These skills included experimentation, simple tool use, and cooperation with other players. General skills in hand, the algorithms performed well when confronted with new games, including more complex ones, such as capture the flag, hide and seek, and tag. This, the authors say, is a step towards solving a major challenge in deep learning. Most algorithms trained to accomplish a specific task?like, in DeepMind?s case, to win at games such as Go or Starcraft?are savants. They?re superhuman at the one task they know and useless at the rest. They can defeat world champions at Go or chess, but have to be retrained from scratch to do anything else. By presenting deep reinforcement learning algorithms with an open-ended, always-shifting world to learn from, DeepMind says their algorithms are beginning to demonstrate ?zero-shot? learning at new never-before-seen tasks. That is, they don?t need retraining to perform novel tasks at a decent level?sight-unseen. This is a step towards more generally capable algorithms that can interact, navigate, and solve problems in the also-endlessly-novel real world." https://singularityhub.com/2021/08/01/deepminds-vibrant-new-virtual-world-trains-flexible-ai-with-endless-play -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Aug 7 17:03:12 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2021 10:03:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] India built a park using the ashes of 6, 000 people who died from COVID and it's a memorial to those who perished in the pandemic Message-ID: The bad blood that has existed between China and India, will only exponentially increase due to the death toll that the pandemic has so far extracted from India... "Years from now when visitors happen upon a park in a corner of Bhopal City, India, they should tread lightly ? because they'll be walking upon the resting place of some 6,000 COVID dead. A 12,000-square-foot area of empty land is being converted into what the city plans to be a memorial and a lush burial ground for those who died during the COVID pandemic. This is because the city's main Bhadbhada Vishram Ghat crematorium has completely run out of space to store the overwhelming amounts of uncollected ash from COVID victims, per Indian news organization Hindustan Times . The outlet estimated that 21 truckloads of the ashes, from over 6,000 people cremated from March 15 to June 15, will be used to develop the park. The South China Morning Post spoke to crematorium manager Mamtesh Sharma, 51, who said the unclaimed ash at Bhadbhada Vishram Ghat was initially being stored in huge urns. However, the rate at which bodies are still being burned there has far outpaced the storage space available on the crematorium's premises. "At the height of the second wave after we had been burning 100 to 150 bodies a day, we had to keep making space. We added more and more lockers in which we keep the urns. Once we made space for 500 lockers. Then we added another locker room. Now there isn't any space left, but we need space for other cremations," he told the SCMP. Sharma also told the SCMP that he was unsurprised that so many ashes remained uncollected. Some family members took only some of the bones, but not the entire quantity. It is also possible that some ashes remained unclaimed because there was no one left to collect them. Bloomberg reported in May that entire families were being wiped out by COVID, particularly in rural India. Meanwhile, New Delhi is facing a similar problem with piles of uncollected ash , but volunteers are choosing to scatter these sacks of cremated remains in the Ganges river instead of burying them. Indian news outlet NDTV reported that the ashes would be placed on the land after being blended with a mixture of soil, cow manure, wood sawdust, sand, and other material. The park can accommodate anywhere between 3,500 and 4,000 plants, and its development committee is inviting people to come forward to plant saplings." https://www.insider.com/memorial-park-made-from-ashes-of-covid-dead-being-built-2021-7 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Sat Aug 7 02:02:41 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 19:02:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?DeepMind=E2=80=99s_Vibrant_New_Virtual_World_Tra?= =?utf-8?q?ins_Flexible_AI_With_Endless_Play?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Speaking of bending reality, is everyone else seeing John Grigg's mail coming from fourteen hours in the future? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From atymes at gmail.com Sat Aug 7 02:16:45 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 19:16:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Space Solar Power Update Video Message-ID: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEoiGQ2i31g Beyond Earth did a video chat reviewing current prospects for space solar power. I'd tag Keith but he was there, in the chat. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat Aug 7 02:20:47 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 19:20:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?DeepMind=E2=80=99s_Vibrant_New_Virtual_World_Tra?= =?utf-8?q?ins_Flexible_AI_With_Endless_Play?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Not I. Maybe your email client's time zone reader is off? On Fri, Aug 6, 2021 at 7:07 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Speaking of bending reality, is everyone else seeing John Grigg's mail > coming from fourteen hours in the future? > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Aug 7 19:57:30 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2021 12:57:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?DeepMind=E2=80=99s_Vibrant_New_Virtual_World_Tra?= =?utf-8?q?ins_Flexible_AI_With_Endless_Play?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Anton Sherwood wrote: "Speaking of bending reality, is everyone else seeing John Grigg's mail coming from fourteen hours in the future?" If any place can bend reality, it is the Philippines! Lol On Fri, Aug 6, 2021 at 7:08 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Speaking of bending reality, is everyone else seeing John Grigg's mail > coming from fourteen hours in the future? > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at maxmore.com Sat Aug 7 04:59:20 2021 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2021 04:59:20 +0000 Subject: [ExI] =?windows-1252?q?DeepMind=92s_Vibrant_New_Virtual_World_Tr?= =?windows-1252?q?ains_Flexible_AI_With_Endless_Play?= In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Nor am I. It's 9.58 pm in Arizona, and John's most recent emails have times of 7.04pm, 6.7pm, and 6.44pm. (John is also the most prolific today!) --Max ________________________________ From: extropy-chat on behalf of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Sent: Friday, August 6, 2021 7:20 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: Adrian Tymes Subject: Re: [ExI] DeepMind?s Vibrant New Virtual World Trains Flexible AI With Endless Play Not I. Maybe your email client's time zone reader is off? On Fri, Aug 6, 2021 at 7:07 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat > wrote: Speaking of bending reality, is everyone else seeing John Grigg's mail coming from fourteen hours in the future? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at maxmore.com Sat Aug 7 05:03:04 2021 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2021 05:03:04 +0000 Subject: [ExI] American Council on Science and Health Message-ID: I've recently come across the ACSH. I'm surprised I haven't become familiar with this source before. My initial impression is strongly positive, but I haven't explored much yet. Is anyone here familiar with the site? --Max https://www.acsh.org/ [https://www.acsh.org/sites/all/themes/acsh_bs/logo-acsh-placeholder.png] American Council on Science and Health ACSH relies on donors like you. If you enjoy our work, please contribute. www.acsh.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Sat Aug 7 06:11:11 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 23:11:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?DeepMind=E2=80=99s_Vibrant_New_Virtual_World_Tra?= =?utf-8?q?ins_Flexible_AI_With_Endless_Play?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3c0042d5-7233-2701-8ece-84d8cbf3b2f4@pobox.com> On 2021-8-07 12:57, John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote: > If any place can bend reality, it is the Philippines! Lol Headers in this one include: > Received: by mail-vs1-xe2c.google.com with SMTP id k24so6567673vsg.9 > for ; Fri, 06 Aug 2021 21:54:28 -0700 (PDT) > X-Received: by 2002:a67:ecd3:: with SMTP id i19mr12031086vsp.35.1628312053182; > Fri, 06 Aug 2021 21:54:13 -0700 (PDT) > Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2021 12:57:30 -0700 I guess the rest of you are using readers that look at something other than the original Date header. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From avant at sollegro.com Sat Aug 7 06:35:03 2021 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2021 23:35:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against China attack on Taiwan Message-ID: <20210806233503.Horde._7AAV_OuKCfUM4rxhx0RdFP@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting John and Spike: >> ?"The U.S. military ?failed miserably? in an October wargame >> scenario reportedly involving a battle for Taiwan, and now military >> leaders are looking at how to change the U.S. joint warfighting >> strategy, a top U.S. general revealed for the first time this week."? > > Hi John. > > The outcome of a wargame is classified as all hell, for > understandable reasons. The fact that this leaked, and leaked from > the top, is sending an important message. John, what message do you > perceive please? That?s right. I figured out a strategy by which standard carrier groups with minor modifications could hold out against hypersonic missiles from the Chinese mainland while dominating the strait of Taiwan. If any of the Navy brass figure it out also, then we should be fine, so long as our objectives were sufficiently limited (to defending Taiwan from troop carriers). But we absolutely must fulfill our commitment to Taiwan and FUCK trying to appease China. Remember everybody thought Hitler would be satisfied with Poland. Also try to imagine yourself to be an Asian for minute: If we do not honor our treaty with Taiwan, what makes you think China will harbor any delusion that we would honor our financial debt to them? If we do not honor our treaty with Taiwan, China would lose all respect for us. And they would certainly not stop at Taiwan. Not when when South Korea, Japan, Hawaii, and California are on the menu. Stuart LaForge From pharos at gmail.com Sat Aug 7 10:52:39 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2021 11:52:39 +0100 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?DeepMind=E2=80=99s_Vibrant_New_Virtual_World_Tra?= =?utf-8?q?ins_Flexible_AI_With_Endless_Play?= In-Reply-To: <3c0042d5-7233-2701-8ece-84d8cbf3b2f4@pobox.com> References: <3c0042d5-7233-2701-8ece-84d8cbf3b2f4@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Aug 2021 at 07:14, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat wrote: > > On 2021-8-07 12:57, John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote: > > If any place can bend reality, it is the Philippines! Lol > > Headers in this one include: > > > Received: by mail-vs1-xe2c.google.com with SMTP id k24so6567673vsg.9 > > for ; Fri, 06 Aug 2021 21:54:28 -0700 (PDT) > > X-Received: by 2002:a67:ecd3:: with SMTP id i19mr12031086vsp.35.1628312053182; > > Fri, 06 Aug 2021 21:54:13 -0700 (PDT) > > Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2021 12:57:30 -0700 > > I guess the rest of you are using readers that look at something other > than the original Date header. > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > _______________________________________________ Basically, emails are normally sorted by the local received date & time for you to easily view the latest new emails as they are shown at the top of the list. This helps if you have a to-do system where you need to know when you received the email. You might miss an email that is dated earlier since it?s automatically moved down the list, while an email dated later would cause it to constantly appear at the top of the list. Problems can arise if the time and date setting on your computer are wrong or if you have the wrong time zone setting. To add to the confusion, some webmail systems use the time zone setting in your online account details. Similarly, the time and date setting could be wrong on the sender computer. Spam emails sometimes do this deliberately. But in this case, John is in the Philippines and your email system is displaying his local sender time instead of the time you received the email. So you just have to be prepared to answer emails before you have received them and also answer emails many hours old that you have just received. :) BillK From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sun Aug 8 02:24:09 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2021 19:24:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?DeepMind=E2=80=99s_Vibrant_New_Virtual_World_Tra?= =?utf-8?q?ins_Flexible_AI_With_Endless_Play?= In-Reply-To: References: <3c0042d5-7233-2701-8ece-84d8cbf3b2f4@pobox.com> Message-ID: BillK wrote: "So you just have to be prepared to answer emails before you have received them and also answer emails many hours old that you have just received. :)" Hey, I'm finally the time traveler I always wanted to be! Well, in a Kafkaesque sense... ; ) On Sat, Aug 7, 2021 at 3:55 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sat, 7 Aug 2021 at 07:14, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > On 2021-8-07 12:57, John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote: > > > If any place can bend reality, it is the Philippines! Lol > > > > Headers in this one include: > > > > > Received: by mail-vs1-xe2c.google.com with SMTP id k24so6567673vsg.9 > > > for ; Fri, 06 Aug 2021 21:54:28 > -0700 (PDT) > > > X-Received: by 2002:a67:ecd3:: with SMTP id > i19mr12031086vsp.35.1628312053182; > > > Fri, 06 Aug 2021 21:54:13 -0700 (PDT) > > > Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2021 12:57:30 -0700 > > > > I guess the rest of you are using readers that look at something other > > than the original Date header. > > -- > > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > > _______________________________________________ > > > Basically, emails are normally sorted by the local received date & > time for you to easily view the latest new emails as they are shown at > the top of the list. This helps if you have a to-do system where you > need to know when you received the email. You might miss an email that > is dated earlier since it?s automatically moved down the list, while > an email dated later would cause it to constantly appear at the top of > the list. > > Problems can arise if the time and date setting on your computer are > wrong or if you have the wrong time zone setting. To add to the > confusion, some webmail systems use the time zone setting in your > online account details. > > Similarly, the time and date setting could be wrong on the sender > computer. Spam emails sometimes do this deliberately. > > But in this case, John is in the Philippines and your email system is > displaying his local sender time instead of the time you received the > email. > > So you just have to be prepared to answer emails before you have > received them and also answer emails many hours old that you have > just received. :) > > > > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gadersd at gmail.com Sat Aug 7 14:23:53 2021 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Hermes Trismegistus) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2021 10:23:53 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Golden Age Message-ID: <40182D20-E325-4152-9573-E2C35E482349@hxcore.ol> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sun Aug 8 05:53:40 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2021 22:53:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Golden Age In-Reply-To: <40182D20-E325-4152-9573-E2C35E482349@hxcore.ol> References: <40182D20-E325-4152-9573-E2C35E482349@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: Hermes Trismegistus wrote: "I have heard that there was a golden age of extropy chat where people such as Elon Musk and Eliezer Yudkowsky participated. What has since happened? May someone tell a tale of the fall?" And so what about the people currently active on the list, are we chopped liver? Lol We have had a laundry list of notable personalities here, at one time or another. Anders Sandberg and Damien Broderick were among my favorites. And we have actually had *several* golden ages. What Extropians achieved before Max introduced us to alcohol... : ) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eirq4laOhcU But I will let someone else more knowledgeable than I, fill you in on the details... John On Sat, Aug 7, 2021 at 7:26 AM Hermes Trismegistus via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I have heard that there was a golden age of extropy chat where people such > as Elon Musk and Eliezer Yudkowsky participated. What has since happened? > May someone tell a tale of the fall? > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sat Aug 7 15:06:02 2021 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2021 17:06:02 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Golden Age In-Reply-To: References: <40182D20-E325-4152-9573-E2C35E482349@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: I joined this list in the 90s. Never seen Elon here, but Eliezer was a regular and very active participant. On 2021. Aug 7., Sat at 16:51, John Grigg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Hermes Trismegistus wrote: > "I have heard that there was a golden age of extropy chat where people > such as Elon Musk and Eliezer Yudkowsky participated. What has since > happened? May someone tell a tale of the fall?" > > And so what about the people currently active on the list, are we chopped > liver? Lol > > We have had a laundry list of notable personalities here, at one time or > another. Anders Sandberg and Damien Broderick were among my favorites. And > we have actually had *several* golden ages. > > What Extropians achieved before Max introduced us to alcohol... : ) > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eirq4laOhcU > > But I will let someone else more knowledgeable than I, fill you in on the > details... > > John > > On Sat, Aug 7, 2021 at 7:26 AM Hermes Trismegistus via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I have heard that there was a golden age of extropy chat where people >> such as Elon Musk and Eliezer Yudkowsky participated. What has since >> happened? May someone tell a tale of the fall? >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sat Aug 7 15:10:17 2021 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2021 17:10:17 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Golden Age In-Reply-To: <40182D20-E325-4152-9573-E2C35E482349@hxcore.ol> References: <40182D20-E325-4152-9573-E2C35E482349@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: On 2021. Aug 7., Sat at 16:25, Hermes Trismegistus via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I have heard that there was a golden age of extropy chat where people such > as Elon Musk and Eliezer Yudkowsky participated. What has since happened? > May someone tell a tale of the fall? > I wouldn?t say fall. More like a fading out, with many regular participants moving on to (mostly related) things and gradually abandoning the list. Some died. I would like to see a revival of the list, but even if it were to close its doors today, it would remain in history as THE incubator for all the things we like. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sun Aug 8 06:17:36 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2021 23:17:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against China attack on Taiwan In-Reply-To: <20210806233503.Horde._7AAV_OuKCfUM4rxhx0RdFP@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20210806233503.Horde._7AAV_OuKCfUM4rxhx0RdFP@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: Stuart LaForge wrote: "I figured out a strategy by which standard carrier groups with minor modifications could hold out against hypersonic missiles from the Chinese mainland while dominating the strait of Taiwan. If any of the Navy brass figure it out also, then we should be fine, so long as our objectives were sufficiently limited (to defending Taiwan from troop carriers)." Please write a letter to the U.S. Naval War College, and let them know your idea. They may not have figured it out... "But we absolutely must fulfill our commitment to Taiwan and FUCK trying to appease China. Remember everybody thought Hitler would be satisfied with Poland. Also try to imagine yourself to be an Asian for minute" Amen! And part of the reason they want Taiwan is so they can use it to put a boot down on Japan's neck. "If we do not honor our treaty with Taiwan, what makes you think China will harbor any delusion that we would honor our financial debt to them? If we do not honor our treaty with Taiwan, China would lose all respect for us. And they would certainly not stop at Taiwan. Not when South Korea, Japan, Hawaii, and California are on the menu." They are a classic schoolyard bully, writ large! And if America does not successfully defend Taiwan, the rest of the world will lose faith in us, and our global economic and military hegemony will ultimately collapse. We absolutely must not back down, despite the risks. John On Fri, Aug 6, 2021 at 11:37 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Quoting John and Spike: > > >> ?"The U.S. military ?failed miserably? in an October wargame > >> scenario reportedly involving a battle for Taiwan, and now military > >> leaders are looking at how to change the U.S. joint warfighting > >> strategy, a top U.S. general revealed for the first time this week."? > > > > Hi John. > > > > The outcome of a wargame is classified as all hell, for > > understandable reasons. The fact that this leaked, and leaked from > > the top, is sending an important message. John, what message do you > > perceive please? That?s right. > > I figured out a strategy by which standard carrier groups with minor > modifications could hold out against hypersonic missiles from the > Chinese mainland while dominating the strait of Taiwan. If any of the > Navy brass figure it out also, then we should be fine, so long as our > objectives were sufficiently limited (to defending Taiwan from troop > carriers). > > But we absolutely must fulfill our commitment to Taiwan and FUCK > trying to appease China. Remember everybody thought Hitler would be > satisfied with Poland. Also try to imagine yourself to be an Asian for > minute: > > If we do not honor our treaty with Taiwan, what makes you think China > will harbor any delusion that we would honor our financial debt to > them? If we do not honor our treaty with Taiwan, China would lose all > respect for us. And they would certainly not stop at Taiwan. Not when > when South Korea, Japan, Hawaii, and California are on the menu. > > Stuart LaForge > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Aug 7 15:23:55 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2021 10:23:55 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Golden Age In-Reply-To: <40182D20-E325-4152-9573-E2C35E482349@hxcore.ol> References: <40182D20-E325-4152-9573-E2C35E482349@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: You realize that you are dissing the current members, no? I think we have some pretty good thinkers left. bill w On Sat, Aug 7, 2021 at 9:25 AM Hermes Trismegistus via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I have heard that there was a golden age of extropy chat where people such > as Elon Musk and Eliezer Yudkowsky participated. What has since happened? > May someone tell a tale of the fall? > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Sat Aug 7 19:18:56 2021 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2021 13:18:56 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Golden Age In-Reply-To: References: <40182D20-E325-4152-9573-E2C35E482349@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: What happened is we won. The most bizarre, normie-freaking future-shocking far-out speculations that were the meat and potatoes of this list flowed outwards and became the water western civilization is currently swimming in. When the Kardashians have an opinion about cryptocurrency and AI-alignment, you know you changed the world. On Sat, Aug 7, 2021 at 9:25 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > You realize that you are dissing the current members, no? I think we > have some pretty good thinkers left. bill w > > On Sat, Aug 7, 2021 at 9:25 AM Hermes Trismegistus via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I have heard that there was a golden age of extropy chat where people >> such as Elon Musk and Eliezer Yudkowsky participated. What has since >> happened? May someone tell a tale of the fall? >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Sun Aug 8 03:26:15 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2021 20:26:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?DeepMind=E2=80=99s_Vibrant_New_Virtual_World_Tra?= =?utf-8?q?ins_Flexible_AI_With_Endless_Play?= In-Reply-To: References: <3c0042d5-7233-2701-8ece-84d8cbf3b2f4@pobox.com> Message-ID: <3dfd8ccc-e419-1375-ed41-3874264dc69f@pobox.com> On 2021-8-07 03:52, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > Basically, emails are normally sorted by the local received date & > time for you to easily view the latest new emails as they are shown at > the top of the list. [...] That doesn't work so well for me because I often move items between folders, and such an item is "received" at the time of transfer. > [...] > But in this case, John is in the Philippines and your email system is > displaying his local sender time instead of the time you received the > email. Yes, because his computer tells the world it's on California time. That's what "-0700" in the Date header means. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From avant at sollegro.com Sun Aug 8 06:12:38 2021 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2021 23:12:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against China attack on Taiwan Message-ID: <20210807231238.Horde.EJQpjGjbKgor582zy5AEhM6@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> On Saturday, August 7, 2021, 08:17:58 AM PDT, John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote: > Stuart LaForge wrote: >> "I figured out a strategy by which standard carrier groups with minor >> modifications could hold out against hypersonic missiles from the >> Chinese mainland while dominating the strait of Taiwan. If any of the >> Navy brass figure it out also, then we should be fine, so long as our >> objectives were sufficiently limited (to defending Taiwan from troop >> carriers)." > Please write a letter to the U.S. Naval War College, and let them > know your idea. They may not have figured it > out... I don't think that would do much good. I sense that there is more going on here than just the arrangement of pieces on a chess board. That being said our side needs more disposable pawns. This would involve more automation and AI which carries its own risks. I feel that losing the Taiwan scenario in a war game is just the wake up call that the U.S. naval commanders needed to keep them from fighting the previous war. The fact that the U.S. lost the war game might mean they have not figured this out yet. But the fact that the outcome of the war game leaked may mean that they have. Ultimately it doesn't matter because as Napoleon correctly observed: "No battle plan survives contact with the enemy." It will come down to whose commanders can best manage the chaos of battle where trivial causes can cascade into dire consequences. As the old saying goes, wars are lost for want of a nail. >> "But we absolutely must fulfill our commitment to Taiwan and FUCK >> trying to appease China. Remember everybody thought Hitler would be >> satisfied with Poland. Also try to imagine yourself to be an Asian for >> minute" > Amen! And part of the reason they want Taiwan is so they can use it > to put a boot down on Japan's neck. Well, there is also that Taiwan is a small island half the size of Ireland but has 4% of the GDP of all of China. As an aesthete, I think Taiwan is worth saving on the merit of their music alone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FlxHvPlvU8 >> "If we do not honor our treaty with Taiwan, what makes you think China >> will harbor any delusion that we would honor our financial debt to >> them? If we do not honor our treaty with Taiwan, China would lose all >> respect for us. And they would certainly not stop at Taiwan. Not when >> South Korea, Japan, Hawaii, and California are on the menu." > They are a classic schoolyard bully, writ large! And if America does > not successfully defend Taiwan, the rest of the world will lose > faith in us, and our global economic and military hegemony will > ultimately collapse. We absolutely must not back down, despite the > risks. I think they are just sexually frustrated from their huge surplus of men due to decades of aborting girl fetuses. On the bright side, should we lose, China will send a "Han daddy" to take care of our wives and daughters when we are away at re-education camp: https://www.businessinsider.com/china-uighur-monitor-home-shared-bed-report-2019-11 If the U.S. is destined to be a sword, then let us be the sword that gives life rather than taking it. Stuart LaForge From stathisp at gmail.com Sun Aug 8 07:28:54 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2021 17:28:54 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Social Media Bans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Aug 2021 at 12:24, SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I?m saying that speech means saying something, or a representation of > saying something (written language, recorded speaking). > > Free speech should cover speech. It?s not that complicated. > So banning a film that criticises the Government is not a limitation of free speech? > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Aug 8 10:47:15 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2021 11:47:15 +0100 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?DeepMind=E2=80=99s_Vibrant_New_Virtual_World_Tra?= =?utf-8?q?ins_Flexible_AI_With_Endless_Play?= In-Reply-To: <3dfd8ccc-e419-1375-ed41-3874264dc69f@pobox.com> References: <3c0042d5-7233-2701-8ece-84d8cbf3b2f4@pobox.com> <3dfd8ccc-e419-1375-ed41-3874264dc69f@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Aug 2021 at 04:29, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat wrote: > > On 2021-8-07 03:52, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > > Basically, emails are normally sorted by the local received date & > > time for you to easily view the latest new emails as they are shown at > > the top of the list. [...] > > That doesn't work so well for me because I often move items between > folders, and such an item is "received" at the time of transfer. > > > [...] > > But in this case, John is in the Philippines and your email system is > > displaying his local sender time instead of the time you received the > > email. > > Yes, because his computer tells the world it's on California time. > That's what "-0700" in the Date header means. > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > _______________________________________________ No, John's computer is OK and set to his local time. That's the Exi-chat mail server that says -0700. All the Exi-chat posts have -0700 (including your emails). You know John's local time because you can see he has time travelled to the future. BillK From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sun Aug 8 10:58:21 2021 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2021 06:58:21 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Social Media Bans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2FF3DB20-7622-4430-9019-A97DAE154A0D@gmail.com> Is the film a film of a speech? If not, then sharing it is some different kind of freedom. Perhaps freedom of expression. Which I?m not talking about. Watching pornographic videos of children being raped and sodomized is not the same as saying ?fuck Bush?. SR Ballard > On Aug 8, 2021, at 3:31 AM, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > > >> On Fri, 6 Aug 2021 at 12:24, SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >> I?m saying that speech means saying something, or a representation of saying something (written language, recorded speaking). >> >> Free speech should cover speech. It?s not that complicated. > > So banning a film that criticises the Government is not a limitation of free speech? > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sun Aug 8 12:09:41 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2021 22:09:41 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Social Media Bans In-Reply-To: <2FF3DB20-7622-4430-9019-A97DAE154A0D@gmail.com> References: <2FF3DB20-7622-4430-9019-A97DAE154A0D@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Aug 2021 at 22:01, SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Is the film a film of a speech? > > If not, then sharing it is some different kind of freedom. Perhaps freedom > of expression. Which I?m not talking about. > > Watching pornographic videos of children being raped and sodomized is not > the same as saying ?fuck Bush?. > > SR Ballard > So you agree that some types of expression should be limited, because they can cause harm. > On Aug 8, 2021, at 3:31 AM, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ? > > > > On Fri, 6 Aug 2021 at 12:24, SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I?m saying that speech means saying something, or a representation of >> saying something (written language, recorded speaking). >> >> Free speech should cover speech. It?s not that complicated. >> > > So banning a film that criticises the Government is not a limitation of > free speech? > >> -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Aug 8 14:00:47 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2021 15:00:47 +0100 Subject: [ExI] UN worried about police brutality against protestors Message-ID: UN Special Rapporteur on Torture: ?Authorities Are Viewing Their Own People as an Enemy? Professor to lead investigation of police brutality against anti-lockdown protesters. Quotes: UN Special Rapporteur on Torture Nils Melzer responded to police brutality dished out to anti-lockdown protesters in Germany last weekend by warning, ?Authorities are increasingly viewing their own people as an enemy.? However, it was Melzer?s comments on the wider perspective of the crackdown that stirred the most interest. After seeing similar scenes during anti-lockdown protests in European cities across the continent, as well as ?police operations in demonstrations worldwide,? Melzer came to a sobering conclusion. ?Something fundamental is going wrong. In all regions of the world, the authorities are apparently increasingly viewing their own people as an enemy,? he stated. The professor also noted the utter stupidity of police inflicting violence on demonstrators while claiming to do so in the name of ?health protection.? ?If the police do not clearly communicate that they see themselves as friends and helpers, but rather treat their own population as an enemy, then a dangerous spiral has been set in motion: namely that the next thing is that the population will also regard the police as an enemy,? concluded Melzer. ------------ The quotes are from a German language newspaper, but Google translate says they are accurate. There does seem to be increasing resistance worldwide against unacceptable government behaviour. BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Aug 8 14:34:14 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2021 09:34:14 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Social Media Bans In-Reply-To: References: <2FF3DB20-7622-4430-9019-A97DAE154A0D@gmail.com> Message-ID: The Supreme Court decided that laws against burning our flag were unconstitutional limitations of free speech. So it doesn't have to be 'speech' at all. bill w On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 7:11 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Sun, 8 Aug 2021 at 22:01, SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Is the film a film of a speech? >> >> If not, then sharing it is some different kind of freedom. Perhaps >> freedom of expression. Which I?m not talking about. >> >> Watching pornographic videos of children being raped and sodomized is not >> the same as saying ?fuck Bush?. >> >> SR Ballard >> > > So you agree that some types of expression should be limited, because they > can cause harm. > >> On Aug 8, 2021, at 3:31 AM, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> ? >> >> >> >> On Fri, 6 Aug 2021 at 12:24, SR Ballard via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> I?m saying that speech means saying something, or a representation of >>> saying something (written language, recorded speaking). >>> >>> Free speech should cover speech. It?s not that complicated. >>> >> >> So banning a film that criticises the Government is not a limitation of >> free speech? >> >>> -- >> Stathis Papaioannou >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Mon Aug 9 05:37:46 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2021 22:37:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Book: Conversations with the Future: 21 Visions for the 21st Century Message-ID: Nikola Danaylov, the interviewer supreme of transhumanism, has a new book out... "For generations, humanity stared at the vastness of the oceans and wondered, ?What if?? Today, having explored the curves of the Earth, we now stare at endless stars and wonder, ?What if?? Our technology has brought us to the make-or-break moment in human history. We can either grow complacent, and go extinct like the dinosaurs, or spread throughout the cosmos, as Carl Sagan dreamed of. What if your toothbrush becomes smarter than you? What happens to your business, your country, your planet and yourself? What if your car doesn?t need a driver anymore? What if we don?t need to age and die? What if machines are smarter than us? What if, instead of fear of the future ? you see opportunity, instead of an end ? you see a beginning, instead of loss ? you see profit, and instead of death ? you see life? What if you and your organization get future-primed? For many years Nikola Danaylov has been interviewing the future and motivating people all over the world to embrace rather than fear it. "Conversations with the Future" was born from those interviews and Nik's unceasing need to explore "What If" with some of the most forward thinking visionaries in the world today." https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N4QF7GU/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=singulasympos-20&camp=1789&creative=9325&linkCode=as2&creativeASIN=B01N4QF7GU&linkId=dcbf8e768a7c91d2afc92603b0915f84 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Mon Aug 9 05:47:25 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2021 22:47:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] All eyes on Venus: 2 spacecraft gear up for close Venus flybys this week Message-ID: "Venus is about to get double the extra attention. NASA's Solar Orbiter , in partnership with the European Space Agency (ESA), will hone in on Venus on Aug. 9, but it won't be alone for long. Another ESA spacecraft, BepiColombo (a partnership with the Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency, JAXA) will fly by the planet just one day later. The spacecraft are both headed toward the inner solar system. Solar Orbiter launched in 2020 with a mission to study the sun , while BepiColombo launched in 2018 and has been en route to Mercury ever since." https://www.space.com/two-venus-flybys-bepicolombo-solar-orbiter -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sun Aug 8 22:08:10 2021 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2021 18:08:10 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Social Media Bans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I didn?t say anything about what the court upheld. I?m sharing my opinion. SR Ballard > On Aug 8, 2021, at 10:36 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > The Supreme Court decided that laws against burning our flag were unconstitutional limitations of free speech. So it doesn't have to be 'speech' at all. bill w > >> On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 7:11 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> >>> On Sun, 8 Aug 2021 at 22:01, SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >>> Is the film a film of a speech? >>> >>> If not, then sharing it is some different kind of freedom. Perhaps freedom of expression. Which I?m not talking about. >>> >>> Watching pornographic videos of children being raped and sodomized is not the same as saying ?fuck Bush?. >>> >>> SR Ballard >> >> So you agree that some types of expression should be limited, because they can cause harm. >>>>>> On Aug 8, 2021, at 3:31 AM, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat wrote: >>>>>> >>>>> ? >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Fri, 6 Aug 2021 at 12:24, SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >>>>> I?m saying that speech means saying something, or a representation of saying something (written language, recorded speaking). >>>>> >>>>> Free speech should cover speech. It?s not that complicated. >>>> >>>> So banning a film that criticises the Government is not a limitation of free speech? >>>> -- >>>> Stathis Papaioannou >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> -- >> Stathis Papaioannou >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Aug 8 22:35:36 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2021 17:35:36 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Social Media Bans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: And I am just reminding all of what 'speech' can mean. bill w On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 5:10 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I didn?t say anything about what the court upheld. I?m sharing my opinion. > > SR Ballard > > On Aug 8, 2021, at 10:36 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ? > The Supreme Court decided that laws against burning our flag were > unconstitutional limitations of free speech. So it doesn't have to be > 'speech' at all. bill w > > On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 7:11 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Sun, 8 Aug 2021 at 22:01, SR Ballard via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Is the film a film of a speech? >>> >>> If not, then sharing it is some different kind of freedom. Perhaps >>> freedom of expression. Which I?m not talking about. >>> >>> Watching pornographic videos of children being raped and sodomized is >>> not the same as saying ?fuck Bush?. >>> >>> SR Ballard >>> >> >> So you agree that some types of expression should be limited, because >> they can cause harm. >> >>> On Aug 8, 2021, at 3:31 AM, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>> ? >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, 6 Aug 2021 at 12:24, SR Ballard via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I?m saying that speech means saying something, or a representation of >>>> saying something (written language, recorded speaking). >>>> >>>> Free speech should cover speech. It?s not that complicated. >>>> >>> >>> So banning a film that criticises the Government is not a limitation of >>> free speech? >>> >>>> -- >>> Stathis Papaioannou >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> -- >> Stathis Papaioannou >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Mon Aug 9 15:52:40 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2021 08:52:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ROBOT GIRLFRIEND Message-ID: I love the remark about Bitcoin... "Robot Girlfriend is a short animation about the inevitable future and its consequences. In a world where everyone has themselves at hand, most people have a hard time finding their soulmate.| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4hnKs_jOL0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Aug 9 01:06:41 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2021 18:06:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ROBOT GIRLFRIEND In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The grammar and lack of emotional tones make this a thumbs-down even before considering the plot. On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 5:51 PM John Grigg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I love the remark about Bitcoin... > > "Robot Girlfriend is a short animation about the inevitable future and its > consequences. In a world where everyone has themselves at hand, most people > have a hard time finding their soulmate.| > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4hnKs_jOL0 > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Aug 9 01:41:17 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2021 18:41:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Social Media Bans In-Reply-To: <2FF3DB20-7622-4430-9019-A97DAE154A0D@gmail.com> References: <2FF3DB20-7622-4430-9019-A97DAE154A0D@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 5:02 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Is the film a film of a speech? > > If not, then sharing it is some different kind of freedom. Perhaps freedom > of expression. Which I?m not talking about. > > Watching pornographic videos of children being raped and sodomized is not > the same as saying ?fuck Bush?. > What if it's both? For instance, a video about how religious cults work - in an effort to stop people from giving money to them (or even to criminalize giving money to cults), and thus political speech - with graphic depictions of cult leaders having sex with minors as part of the video. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon Aug 9 01:45:04 2021 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2021 21:45:04 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Social Media Bans In-Reply-To: References: <2FF3DB20-7622-4430-9019-A97DAE154A0D@gmail.com> Message-ID: I just don't understand how "graphic depictions of ... sex with minors" is speech, in your opinion. On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 9:43 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 5:02 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Is the film a film of a speech? >> >> If not, then sharing it is some different kind of freedom. Perhaps >> freedom of expression. Which I?m not talking about. >> >> Watching pornographic videos of children being raped and sodomized is not >> the same as saying ?fuck Bush?. >> > > What if it's both? For instance, a video about how religious cults work - > in an effort to stop people from giving money to them (or even to > criminalize giving money to cults), and thus political speech - with > graphic depictions of cult leaders having sex with minors as part of the > video. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Mon Aug 9 02:14:42 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2021 19:14:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Social Media Bans In-Reply-To: <56889879-F917-4DD2-B0AD-212DCB9033F0@gmail.com> References: <56889879-F917-4DD2-B0AD-212DCB9033F0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <99573da4-3049-a42d-126a-3497a182a23c@pobox.com> On 2021-8-05 18:02, SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: > It?s not free speech to share child porn. > It is free speech to talk about disgusting things. When you say "X is not free speech,"[*] do you mean X is not protected (according to case law), or X ought not to be protected (despite case law), or something else? The obvious example of unfree speech is parroting Official Truth under compulsion, but I doubt that's meant here. [*] more often X is "hate speech". -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From bronto at pobox.com Mon Aug 9 02:19:12 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2021 19:19:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?DeepMind=E2=80=99s_Vibrant_New_Virtual_World_Tra?= =?utf-8?q?ins_Flexible_AI_With_Endless_Play?= In-Reply-To: References: <3c0042d5-7233-2701-8ece-84d8cbf3b2f4@pobox.com> <3dfd8ccc-e419-1375-ed41-3874264dc69f@pobox.com> Message-ID: <9a58fac1-0f41-6b63-31b1-531a2897febf@pobox.com> On 2021-8-08 03:47, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > No, John's computer is OK and set to his local time. > That's the Exi-chat mail server that says -0700. > All the Exi-chat posts have -0700 (including your emails). For example, this one from you says Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2021 11:47:15 +0100 -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon Aug 9 02:26:05 2021 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2021 22:26:05 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Social Media Bans In-Reply-To: <99573da4-3049-a42d-126a-3497a182a23c@pobox.com> References: <99573da4-3049-a42d-126a-3497a182a23c@pobox.com> Message-ID: <51C8FFC8-8DEF-44DF-97DE-53941970DC82@gmail.com> X is not speech, so I was not talking about it when I referred to Free Speech. But to answer your implicit question, ?Do you think Child Rape should be legally protected, to create and distribute?? No, I do not. And yes, distribution might be technically different than creation, however, Pedophiles who watch child rape online are more likely to (re) offend. ?Pornography use and sexual aggression: the impact of frequency and type of pornography use on recidivism among sexual offenders.? ?Most importantly, after controlling for general and specific risk factors for sexual aggression, pornography added significantly to the prediction of recidivism.? ? content of pornography (i.e., pornography containing deviant content) was a risk factor for all groups.? [deviant obviously includes child rape] https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Pornography-use-and-sexual-aggression%3A-the-impact-Kingston-Fedoroff/bf65fc41f69b0022b06849975f13e3a5741c8650 SR Ballard > On Aug 8, 2021, at 10:16 PM, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat wrote: > > ?On 2021-8-05 18:02, SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >> It?s not free speech to share child porn. >> It is free speech to talk about disgusting things. > > When you say "X is not free speech,"[*] do you mean > X is not protected (according to case law), or > X ought not to be protected (despite case law), or > something else? > > The obvious example of unfree speech is parroting Official Truth under compulsion, but I doubt that's meant here. > > [*] more often X is "hate speech". > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Mon Aug 9 17:40:35 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2021 10:40:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ROBOT GIRLFRIEND In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Adrian Tymes wrote: "The grammar and lack of emotional tones make this a thumbs-down even before considering the plot." The grammar and emotional tone tie in with the doomer and wojack memes that are very popular with the rising generation. The creator of this channel actually has an extremely devoted following and I consider him very talented. I love his videos that show the massive frustrations of investing in cryptocurrency. On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 6:09 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The grammar and lack of emotional tones make this a thumbs-down even > before considering the plot. > > On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 5:51 PM John Grigg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I love the remark about Bitcoin... >> >> "Robot Girlfriend is a short animation about the inevitable future and >> its consequences. In a world where everyone has themselves at hand, most >> people have a hard time finding their soulmate.| >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4hnKs_jOL0 >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Mon Aug 9 17:57:19 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2021 10:57:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Expanse: The Best Space Battle Ever? (Detailed Breakdown) Message-ID: I have only seen the first season, and so have a lot of catching up to do. I really enjoy how this gentleman goes into detail about these space battles that have realistic physics, missiles and rail guns. It makes me wish Anders were here to do an insightful response. "Spacedock breaks down The Expanse S05E10's fantastic realistic space battle." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1AEHK8oQeA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Mon Aug 9 19:15:49 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2021 12:15:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Social Media Bans In-Reply-To: <51C8FFC8-8DEF-44DF-97DE-53941970DC82@gmail.com> References: <99573da4-3049-a42d-126a-3497a182a23c@pobox.com> <51C8FFC8-8DEF-44DF-97DE-53941970DC82@gmail.com> Message-ID: Pedophiles and Neo-Nazis spoil efforts at across the board unlimited free speech (calling for acts of violence against the innocent is also wrong). But FB and YT have totally gone off the rails with their censorship at this point. Possible alternatives... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJi-4AbqfsY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tvk59-GE2pc On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 7:28 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > X is not speech, so I was not talking about it when I referred to Free > Speech. > > But to answer your implicit question, ?Do you think Child Rape should be > legally protected, to create and distribute?? No, I do not. > > And yes, distribution might be technically different than creation, > however, Pedophiles who watch child rape online are more likely to (re) > offend. > > ?Pornography use and sexual aggression: the impact of frequency and type > of pornography use on recidivism among sexual offenders.? > > ?Most importantly, after controlling for general and specific risk > factors for sexual aggression, pornography added significantly to the > prediction of recidivism.? > > ? content of pornography (i.e., pornography containing deviant content) > was a risk factor for all groups.? > > [deviant obviously includes child rape] > > > https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Pornography-use-and-sexual-aggression%3A-the-impact-Kingston-Fedoroff/bf65fc41f69b0022b06849975f13e3a5741c8650 > > SR Ballard > > On Aug 8, 2021, at 10:16 PM, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ?On 2021-8-05 18:02, SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: > > It?s not free speech to share child porn. > > It is free speech to talk about disgusting things. > > > When you say "X is not free speech,"[*] do you mean > X is not protected (according to case law), or > X ought not to be protected (despite case law), or > something else? > > The obvious example of unfree speech is parroting Official Truth under > compulsion, but I doubt that's meant here. > > [*] more often X is "hate speech". > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 9 04:32:54 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2021 21:32:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Golden Age In-Reply-To: References: <40182D20-E325-4152-9573-E2C35E482349@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: <01f501d78cd7$9f72ff10$de58fd30$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Darin Sunley via extropy-chat Sent: Saturday, August 7, 2021 12:19 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: Darin Sunley Subject: Re: [ExI] Golden Age >?What happened is we won. The most bizarre, normie-freaking future-shocking far-out speculations that were the meat and potatoes of this list flowed outwards and became the water western civilization is currently swimming in. >?When the Kardashians have an opinion about cryptocurrency and AI-alignment, you know you changed the world. Thanks for mentioning cryptocurrency Darin. I have only a vague and very possibly inaccurate notion of what is (are?) Kardashians (and I am deplorably too apathetic on that subject to google it) but note that the ideas which led to cryptocurrency were very likely first discussed in this forum in the 1990s. May Hal Finney rest in peace and his fond memory live forever. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 9 04:38:52 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2021 21:38:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against China attack on Taiwan In-Reply-To: <20210807231238.Horde.EJQpjGjbKgor582zy5AEhM6@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20210807231238.Horde.EJQpjGjbKgor582zy5AEhM6@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <01fc01d78cd8$74c76c50$5e5644f0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat ... >...I feel that losing the Taiwan scenario in a war game is just the wake up call that the U.S. naval commanders needed to keep them from fighting the previous war. The fact that the U.S. lost the war game might mean they have not figured this out yet. But the fact that the outcome of the war game leaked may mean that they have.... Stuart LaForge _______________________________________________ Stuart, torpedo technology has far outpaced anti-missile technology. Torpedoes fly above the water at speeds higher than shipborne lasers can defend. Result: flattops (and all other surface ships) cannot be defended. We have had Taiwan money flowing into the states for a long time now. What I read in this leak is that the US is signaling to the money remaining in Taiwan to get out now: the USA will not defend because it cannot. But the USA will cheerfully accept rich people from Taiwan to come here to live in peace. spike From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Mon Aug 9 20:28:22 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2021 13:28:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against China attack on Taiwan In-Reply-To: <01fc01d78cd8$74c76c50$5e5644f0$@rainier66.com> References: <20210807231238.Horde.EJQpjGjbKgor582zy5AEhM6@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <01fc01d78cd8$74c76c50$5e5644f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Oh, and don't forget about the Russian super-cavitation torpedoes! Lol But what about drone swarms around warships, to keep them safe above and below the water? And my understanding is that far more powerful lasers will be deployed on our ships within the next few years. And there are the vulcan guns to shoot a million big bullets at incoming missiles. But of course their targeting systems have to be up to the task. And I would like to think the military has some awesome above top secret weapons systems that are in storage and ready to go, if war comes. Spike, I feel like you are being defeatist, but then you are an experienced engineer so perhaps you have knowledge the rest of us don't. I personally think you don't fully grok how if the CCP is appeased and gets their way, that American hegemony will be seen by the world as coming to an end and things will never be the same. Our allies will realize that when push comes to shove, and then war, that we give in to China. Jinping will play his hand by telling an American president who wants to oppose a CCP invasion of Taiwan, that he is risking the destruction of the global economy and even the world, should things escalate to the use of nuclear weapons. America must not give in to a tyrant who thinks he can get away with such behavior, despite the possible risks. John On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 9:40 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of > Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat > ... > > >...I feel that losing the Taiwan scenario in a war game is just the wake > up > call that the U.S. naval commanders needed to keep them from fighting the > previous war. The fact that the U.S. lost the war game might mean they have > not figured this out yet. But the fact that the outcome of the war game > leaked may mean that they have.... > > Stuart LaForge > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Stuart, torpedo technology has far outpaced anti-missile technology. > Torpedoes fly above the water at speeds higher than shipborne lasers can > defend. Result: flattops (and all other surface ships) cannot be defended. > > We have had Taiwan money flowing into the states for a long time now. What > I read in this leak is that the US is signaling to the money remaining in > Taiwan to get out now: the USA will not defend because it cannot. But the > USA will cheerfully accept rich people from Taiwan to come here to live in > peace. > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Aug 9 06:21:12 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2021 23:21:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against China attack on Taiwan In-Reply-To: References: <20210807231238.Horde.EJQpjGjbKgor582zy5AEhM6@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <01fc01d78cd8$74c76c50$5e5644f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: "Defeatist" might be elaborating on the possibility of nuclear torpedoes, launched deniably underwater, coming within a kilometer or so of the shore, popping up, and nuking whatever near-shore city there is. Note that around half of America's biggest cities are near or on an oceanic coast. As they only show up on sensors (sonar at first) well after being fired, there's no proof of who to retaliate against, removing the biggest practical obstacle to a major power using them. On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 10:26 PM John Grigg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Oh, and don't forget about the Russian super-cavitation torpedoes! Lol But > what about drone swarms around warships, to keep them safe above and below > the water? And my understanding is that far more powerful lasers will be > deployed on our ships within the next few years. And there are the vulcan > guns to shoot a million big bullets at incoming missiles. But of course > their targeting systems have to be up to the task. And I would like to > think the military has some awesome above top secret weapons systems that > are in storage and ready to go, if war comes. > > Spike, I feel like you are being defeatist, but then you are an > experienced engineer so perhaps you have knowledge the rest of us don't. I > personally think you don't fully grok how if the CCP is appeased and gets > their way, that American hegemony will be seen by the world as coming to an > end and things will never be the same. Our allies will realize that when > push comes to shove, and then war, that we give in to China. Jinping will > play his hand by telling an American president who wants to oppose a CCP > invasion of Taiwan, that he is risking the destruction of the global > economy and even the world, should things escalate to the use of nuclear > weapons. America must not give in to a tyrant who thinks he can get away > with such behavior, despite the possible risks. > > John > > On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 9:40 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of >> Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat >> ... >> >> >...I feel that losing the Taiwan scenario in a war game is just the wake >> up >> call that the U.S. naval commanders needed to keep them from fighting the >> previous war. The fact that the U.S. lost the war game might mean they >> have >> not figured this out yet. But the fact that the outcome of the war game >> leaked may mean that they have.... >> >> Stuart LaForge >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> Stuart, torpedo technology has far outpaced anti-missile technology. >> Torpedoes fly above the water at speeds higher than shipborne lasers can >> defend. Result: flattops (and all other surface ships) cannot be >> defended. >> >> We have had Taiwan money flowing into the states for a long time now. >> What >> I read in this leak is that the US is signaling to the money remaining in >> Taiwan to get out now: the USA will not defend because it cannot. But the >> USA will cheerfully accept rich people from Taiwan to come here to live in >> peace. >> >> spike >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Mon Aug 9 21:33:57 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2021 14:33:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against China attack on Taiwan In-Reply-To: References: <20210807231238.Horde.EJQpjGjbKgor582zy5AEhM6@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <01fc01d78cd8$74c76c50$5e5644f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: And so the CCP does this "secretly" to Taiwan and then says to them, "oh, my gosh!" "What a horrible act of terrorism some unknown villains did to you!" "Well, due to our huge concern for you, we will immediately send 250,000 members of our armed services with lots of equipment to help you rebuild!" LOL On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 11:23 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > "Defeatist" might be elaborating on the possibility of nuclear torpedoes, > launched deniably underwater, coming within a kilometer or so of the shore, > popping up, and nuking whatever near-shore city there is. Note that around > half of America's biggest cities are near or on an oceanic coast. As they > only show up on sensors (sonar at first) well after being fired, there's no > proof of who to retaliate against, removing the biggest practical obstacle > to a major power using them. > > On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 10:26 PM John Grigg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Oh, and don't forget about the Russian super-cavitation torpedoes! Lol >> But what about drone swarms around warships, to keep them safe above and >> below the water? And my understanding is that far more powerful lasers will >> be deployed on our ships within the next few years. And there are the >> vulcan guns to shoot a million big bullets at incoming missiles. But of >> course their targeting systems have to be up to the task. And I would like >> to think the military has some awesome above top secret weapons systems >> that are in storage and ready to go, if war comes. >> >> Spike, I feel like you are being defeatist, but then you are an >> experienced engineer so perhaps you have knowledge the rest of us don't. I >> personally think you don't fully grok how if the CCP is appeased and gets >> their way, that American hegemony will be seen by the world as coming to an >> end and things will never be the same. Our allies will realize that when >> push comes to shove, and then war, that we give in to China. Jinping will >> play his hand by telling an American president who wants to oppose a CCP >> invasion of Taiwan, that he is risking the destruction of the global >> economy and even the world, should things escalate to the use of nuclear >> weapons. America must not give in to a tyrant who thinks he can get away >> with such behavior, despite the possible risks. >> >> John >> >> On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 9:40 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of >>> Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat >>> ... >>> >>> >...I feel that losing the Taiwan scenario in a war game is just the >>> wake up >>> call that the U.S. naval commanders needed to keep them from fighting the >>> previous war. The fact that the U.S. lost the war game might mean they >>> have >>> not figured this out yet. But the fact that the outcome of the war game >>> leaked may mean that they have.... >>> >>> Stuart LaForge >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> Stuart, torpedo technology has far outpaced anti-missile technology. >>> Torpedoes fly above the water at speeds higher than shipborne lasers can >>> defend. Result: flattops (and all other surface ships) cannot be >>> defended. >>> >>> We have had Taiwan money flowing into the states for a long time now. >>> What >>> I read in this leak is that the US is signaling to the money remaining in >>> Taiwan to get out now: the USA will not defend because it cannot. But >>> the >>> USA will cheerfully accept rich people from Taiwan to come here to live >>> in >>> peace. >>> >>> spike >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Aug 9 06:45:14 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2021 23:45:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against China attack on Taiwan In-Reply-To: References: <20210807231238.Horde.EJQpjGjbKgor582zy5AEhM6@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <01fc01d78cd8$74c76c50$5e5644f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: No, it'd be obvious it wasn't terrorists. This is way beyond what terrorists can muster. Only China has motivation and capability to nuke Taiwan...but China isn't the only one able and willing (if they think they can get away with it) to nuke the US. On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 11:32 PM John Grigg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > And so the CCP does this "secretly" to Taiwan and then says to them, "oh, > my gosh!" "What a horrible act of terrorism some unknown villains did to > you!" "Well, due to our huge concern for you, we will immediately send > 250,000 members of our armed services with lots of equipment to help you > rebuild!" LOL > > > > On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 11:23 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> "Defeatist" might be elaborating on the possibility of nuclear torpedoes, >> launched deniably underwater, coming within a kilometer or so of the shore, >> popping up, and nuking whatever near-shore city there is. Note that around >> half of America's biggest cities are near or on an oceanic coast. As they >> only show up on sensors (sonar at first) well after being fired, there's no >> proof of who to retaliate against, removing the biggest practical obstacle >> to a major power using them. >> >> On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 10:26 PM John Grigg via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Oh, and don't forget about the Russian super-cavitation torpedoes! Lol >>> But what about drone swarms around warships, to keep them safe above and >>> below the water? And my understanding is that far more powerful lasers will >>> be deployed on our ships within the next few years. And there are the >>> vulcan guns to shoot a million big bullets at incoming missiles. But of >>> course their targeting systems have to be up to the task. And I would like >>> to think the military has some awesome above top secret weapons systems >>> that are in storage and ready to go, if war comes. >>> >>> Spike, I feel like you are being defeatist, but then you are an >>> experienced engineer so perhaps you have knowledge the rest of us don't. I >>> personally think you don't fully grok how if the CCP is appeased and gets >>> their way, that American hegemony will be seen by the world as coming to an >>> end and things will never be the same. Our allies will realize that when >>> push comes to shove, and then war, that we give in to China. Jinping will >>> play his hand by telling an American president who wants to oppose a CCP >>> invasion of Taiwan, that he is risking the destruction of the global >>> economy and even the world, should things escalate to the use of nuclear >>> weapons. America must not give in to a tyrant who thinks he can get away >>> with such behavior, despite the possible risks. >>> >>> John >>> >>> On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 9:40 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: extropy-chat On Behalf >>>> Of >>>> Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat >>>> ... >>>> >>>> >...I feel that losing the Taiwan scenario in a war game is just the >>>> wake up >>>> call that the U.S. naval commanders needed to keep them from fighting >>>> the >>>> previous war. The fact that the U.S. lost the war game might mean they >>>> have >>>> not figured this out yet. But the fact that the outcome of the war game >>>> leaked may mean that they have.... >>>> >>>> Stuart LaForge >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>>> Stuart, torpedo technology has far outpaced anti-missile technology. >>>> Torpedoes fly above the water at speeds higher than shipborne lasers can >>>> defend. Result: flattops (and all other surface ships) cannot be >>>> defended. >>>> >>>> We have had Taiwan money flowing into the states for a long time now. >>>> What >>>> I read in this leak is that the US is signaling to the money remaining >>>> in >>>> Taiwan to get out now: the USA will not defend because it cannot. But >>>> the >>>> USA will cheerfully accept rich people from Taiwan to come here to live >>>> in >>>> peace. >>>> >>>> spike >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Mon Aug 9 22:03:30 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2021 15:03:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against China attack on Taiwan In-Reply-To: References: <20210807231238.Horde.EJQpjGjbKgor582zy5AEhM6@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <01fc01d78cd8$74c76c50$5e5644f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The only hostile nations with the ability to attack America that way are Russia, China, Iran (sooner rather than later) and North Korea. A very short list... On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 11:47 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > No, it'd be obvious it wasn't terrorists. This is way beyond what > terrorists can muster. Only China has motivation and capability to nuke > Taiwan...but China isn't the only one able and willing (if they think they > can get away with it) to nuke the US. > > On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 11:32 PM John Grigg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> And so the CCP does this "secretly" to Taiwan and then says to them, "oh, >> my gosh!" "What a horrible act of terrorism some unknown villains did to >> you!" "Well, due to our huge concern for you, we will immediately send >> 250,000 members of our armed services with lots of equipment to help you >> rebuild!" LOL >> >> >> >> On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 11:23 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> "Defeatist" might be elaborating on the possibility of nuclear >>> torpedoes, launched deniably underwater, coming within a kilometer or so of >>> the shore, popping up, and nuking whatever near-shore city there is. Note >>> that around half of America's biggest cities are near or on an oceanic >>> coast. As they only show up on sensors (sonar at first) well after being >>> fired, there's no proof of who to retaliate against, removing the biggest >>> practical obstacle to a major power using them. >>> >>> On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 10:26 PM John Grigg via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Oh, and don't forget about the Russian super-cavitation torpedoes! Lol >>>> But what about drone swarms around warships, to keep them safe above and >>>> below the water? And my understanding is that far more powerful lasers will >>>> be deployed on our ships within the next few years. And there are the >>>> vulcan guns to shoot a million big bullets at incoming missiles. But of >>>> course their targeting systems have to be up to the task. And I would like >>>> to think the military has some awesome above top secret weapons systems >>>> that are in storage and ready to go, if war comes. >>>> >>>> Spike, I feel like you are being defeatist, but then you are an >>>> experienced engineer so perhaps you have knowledge the rest of us don't. I >>>> personally think you don't fully grok how if the CCP is appeased and gets >>>> their way, that American hegemony will be seen by the world as coming to an >>>> end and things will never be the same. Our allies will realize that when >>>> push comes to shove, and then war, that we give in to China. Jinping will >>>> play his hand by telling an American president who wants to oppose a CCP >>>> invasion of Taiwan, that he is risking the destruction of the global >>>> economy and even the world, should things escalate to the use of nuclear >>>> weapons. America must not give in to a tyrant who thinks he can get away >>>> with such behavior, despite the possible risks. >>>> >>>> John >>>> >>>> On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 9:40 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: extropy-chat On Behalf >>>>> Of >>>>> Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat >>>>> ... >>>>> >>>>> >...I feel that losing the Taiwan scenario in a war game is just the >>>>> wake up >>>>> call that the U.S. naval commanders needed to keep them from fighting >>>>> the >>>>> previous war. The fact that the U.S. lost the war game might mean they >>>>> have >>>>> not figured this out yet. But the fact that the outcome of the war game >>>>> leaked may mean that they have.... >>>>> >>>>> Stuart LaForge >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Stuart, torpedo technology has far outpaced anti-missile technology. >>>>> Torpedoes fly above the water at speeds higher than shipborne lasers >>>>> can >>>>> defend. Result: flattops (and all other surface ships) cannot be >>>>> defended. >>>>> >>>>> We have had Taiwan money flowing into the states for a long time now. >>>>> What >>>>> I read in this leak is that the US is signaling to the money remaining >>>>> in >>>>> Taiwan to get out now: the USA will not defend because it cannot. But >>>>> the >>>>> USA will cheerfully accept rich people from Taiwan to come here to >>>>> live in >>>>> peace. >>>>> >>>>> spike >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Aug 9 07:59:59 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2021 00:59:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against China attack on Taiwan In-Reply-To: References: <20210807231238.Horde.EJQpjGjbKgor582zy5AEhM6@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <01fc01d78cd8$74c76c50$5e5644f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Still enough to potentially cause US nukes not to fly back in retaliation, for fear of hitting an innocent country. On Mon, Aug 9, 2021 at 12:01 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The only hostile nations with the ability to attack America that way are > Russia, China, Iran (sooner rather than later) and North Korea. A very > short list... > > On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 11:47 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> No, it'd be obvious it wasn't terrorists. This is way beyond what >> terrorists can muster. Only China has motivation and capability to nuke >> Taiwan...but China isn't the only one able and willing (if they think they >> can get away with it) to nuke the US. >> >> On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 11:32 PM John Grigg via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> And so the CCP does this "secretly" to Taiwan and then says to them, >>> "oh, my gosh!" "What a horrible act of terrorism some unknown villains did >>> to you!" "Well, due to our huge concern for you, we will immediately send >>> 250,000 members of our armed services with lots of equipment to help you >>> rebuild!" LOL >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 11:23 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> "Defeatist" might be elaborating on the possibility of nuclear >>>> torpedoes, launched deniably underwater, coming within a kilometer or so of >>>> the shore, popping up, and nuking whatever near-shore city there is. Note >>>> that around half of America's biggest cities are near or on an oceanic >>>> coast. As they only show up on sensors (sonar at first) well after being >>>> fired, there's no proof of who to retaliate against, removing the biggest >>>> practical obstacle to a major power using them. >>>> >>>> On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 10:26 PM John Grigg via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Oh, and don't forget about the Russian super-cavitation torpedoes! Lol >>>>> But what about drone swarms around warships, to keep them safe above and >>>>> below the water? And my understanding is that far more powerful lasers will >>>>> be deployed on our ships within the next few years. And there are the >>>>> vulcan guns to shoot a million big bullets at incoming missiles. But of >>>>> course their targeting systems have to be up to the task. And I would like >>>>> to think the military has some awesome above top secret weapons systems >>>>> that are in storage and ready to go, if war comes. >>>>> >>>>> Spike, I feel like you are being defeatist, but then you are an >>>>> experienced engineer so perhaps you have knowledge the rest of us don't. I >>>>> personally think you don't fully grok how if the CCP is appeased and gets >>>>> their way, that American hegemony will be seen by the world as coming to an >>>>> end and things will never be the same. Our allies will realize that when >>>>> push comes to shove, and then war, that we give in to China. Jinping will >>>>> play his hand by telling an American president who wants to oppose a CCP >>>>> invasion of Taiwan, that he is risking the destruction of the global >>>>> economy and even the world, should things escalate to the use of nuclear >>>>> weapons. America must not give in to a tyrant who thinks he can get away >>>>> with such behavior, despite the possible risks. >>>>> >>>>> John >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 9:40 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: extropy-chat On >>>>>> Behalf Of >>>>>> Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat >>>>>> ... >>>>>> >>>>>> >...I feel that losing the Taiwan scenario in a war game is just the >>>>>> wake up >>>>>> call that the U.S. naval commanders needed to keep them from fighting >>>>>> the >>>>>> previous war. The fact that the U.S. lost the war game might mean >>>>>> they have >>>>>> not figured this out yet. But the fact that the outcome of the war >>>>>> game >>>>>> leaked may mean that they have.... >>>>>> >>>>>> Stuart LaForge >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Stuart, torpedo technology has far outpaced anti-missile technology. >>>>>> Torpedoes fly above the water at speeds higher than shipborne lasers >>>>>> can >>>>>> defend. Result: flattops (and all other surface ships) cannot be >>>>>> defended. >>>>>> >>>>>> We have had Taiwan money flowing into the states for a long time >>>>>> now. What >>>>>> I read in this leak is that the US is signaling to the money >>>>>> remaining in >>>>>> Taiwan to get out now: the USA will not defend because it cannot. >>>>>> But the >>>>>> USA will cheerfully accept rich people from Taiwan to come here to >>>>>> live in >>>>>> peace. >>>>>> >>>>>> spike >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Mon Aug 9 23:39:54 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2021 16:39:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against China attack on Taiwan In-Reply-To: References: <20210807231238.Horde.EJQpjGjbKgor582zy5AEhM6@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <01fc01d78cd8$74c76c50$5e5644f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The intelligence agencies would have to uncover a definite smoking gun before revenge was sought. On Mon, Aug 9, 2021 at 1:02 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Still enough to potentially cause US nukes not to fly back in retaliation, > for fear of hitting an innocent country. > > On Mon, Aug 9, 2021 at 12:01 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> The only hostile nations with the ability to attack America that way are >> Russia, China, Iran (sooner rather than later) and North Korea. A very >> short list... >> >> On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 11:47 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> No, it'd be obvious it wasn't terrorists. This is way beyond what >>> terrorists can muster. Only China has motivation and capability to nuke >>> Taiwan...but China isn't the only one able and willing (if they think they >>> can get away with it) to nuke the US. >>> >>> On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 11:32 PM John Grigg via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> And so the CCP does this "secretly" to Taiwan and then says to them, >>>> "oh, my gosh!" "What a horrible act of terrorism some unknown villains did >>>> to you!" "Well, due to our huge concern for you, we will immediately send >>>> 250,000 members of our armed services with lots of equipment to help you >>>> rebuild!" LOL >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 11:23 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> "Defeatist" might be elaborating on the possibility of nuclear >>>>> torpedoes, launched deniably underwater, coming within a kilometer or so of >>>>> the shore, popping up, and nuking whatever near-shore city there is. Note >>>>> that around half of America's biggest cities are near or on an oceanic >>>>> coast. As they only show up on sensors (sonar at first) well after being >>>>> fired, there's no proof of who to retaliate against, removing the biggest >>>>> practical obstacle to a major power using them. >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 10:26 PM John Grigg via extropy-chat < >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Oh, and don't forget about the Russian super-cavitation torpedoes! >>>>>> Lol But what about drone swarms around warships, to keep them safe above >>>>>> and below the water? And my understanding is that far more powerful lasers >>>>>> will be deployed on our ships within the next few years. And there are the >>>>>> vulcan guns to shoot a million big bullets at incoming missiles. But of >>>>>> course their targeting systems have to be up to the task. And I would like >>>>>> to think the military has some awesome above top secret weapons systems >>>>>> that are in storage and ready to go, if war comes. >>>>>> >>>>>> Spike, I feel like you are being defeatist, but then you are an >>>>>> experienced engineer so perhaps you have knowledge the rest of us don't. I >>>>>> personally think you don't fully grok how if the CCP is appeased and gets >>>>>> their way, that American hegemony will be seen by the world as coming to an >>>>>> end and things will never be the same. Our allies will realize that when >>>>>> push comes to shove, and then war, that we give in to China. Jinping will >>>>>> play his hand by telling an American president who wants to oppose a CCP >>>>>> invasion of Taiwan, that he is risking the destruction of the global >>>>>> economy and even the world, should things escalate to the use of nuclear >>>>>> weapons. America must not give in to a tyrant who thinks he can get away >>>>>> with such behavior, despite the possible risks. >>>>>> >>>>>> John >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 9:40 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: extropy-chat On >>>>>>> Behalf Of >>>>>>> Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat >>>>>>> ... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >...I feel that losing the Taiwan scenario in a war game is just the >>>>>>> wake up >>>>>>> call that the U.S. naval commanders needed to keep them from >>>>>>> fighting the >>>>>>> previous war. The fact that the U.S. lost the war game might mean >>>>>>> they have >>>>>>> not figured this out yet. But the fact that the outcome of the war >>>>>>> game >>>>>>> leaked may mean that they have.... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Stuart LaForge >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Stuart, torpedo technology has far outpaced anti-missile technology. >>>>>>> Torpedoes fly above the water at speeds higher than shipborne lasers >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> defend. Result: flattops (and all other surface ships) cannot be >>>>>>> defended. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We have had Taiwan money flowing into the states for a long time >>>>>>> now. What >>>>>>> I read in this leak is that the US is signaling to the money >>>>>>> remaining in >>>>>>> Taiwan to get out now: the USA will not defend because it cannot. >>>>>>> But the >>>>>>> USA will cheerfully accept rich people from Taiwan to come here to >>>>>>> live in >>>>>>> peace. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Tue Aug 10 00:07:16 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2021 17:07:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Physicists take big step in race to quantum computing Message-ID: "A team of physicists from the Harvard-MIT Center for Ultracold Atoms and other universities has developed a special type of quantum computer known as a programmable quantum simulator capable of operating with 256 quantum bits, or "qubits." The system marks a major step toward building large-scale quantum machines that could be used to shed light on a host of complex quantum processes and eventually help bring about real-world breakthroughs in material science, communication technologies, finance, and many other fields, overcoming research hurdles that are beyond the capabilities of even the fastest supercomputers today. Qubits are the fundamental building blocks on which quantum computers run and the source of their massive processing power. "This moves the field into a new domain where no one has ever been to thus far," said Mikhail Lukin, the George Vasmer Leverett Professor of Physics, co-director of the Harvard Quantum Initiative, and one of the senior authors of the study published today in the journal *Nature*. "We are entering a completely new part of the quantum world." According to Sepehr Ebadi, a physics student in the Graduate School of Arts and Sciences and the study's lead author, it is the combination of system's unprecedented size and programmability that puts it at the cutting edge of the race for a quantum computer, which harnesses the mysterious properties of matter at extremely small scales to greatly advance processing power. Under the right circumstances, the increase in qubits means the system can store and process exponentially more information than the classical bits on which standard computers run. "The number of quantum states that are possible with only 256 qubits exceeds the number of atoms in the solar system," Ebadi said, explaining the system's vast size. Already, the simulator has allowed researchers to observe several exotic quantum states of matter that had never before been realized experimentally, and to perform a quantum phase transition study so precise that it serves as the textbook example of how magnetism works at the quantum level. These experiments provide powerful insights on the quantum physics underlying material properties and can help show scientists how to design new materials with exotic properties. The project uses a significantly upgraded version of a platform the researchers developed in 2017, which was capable of reaching a size of 51 qubits. That older system allowed the researchers to capture ultra-cold rubidium atoms and arrange them in a specific order using a one-dimensional array of individually focused laser beams called optical tweezers." https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/07/210709104157.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Tue Aug 10 00:09:59 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2021 17:09:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Why_the_CDC_says_it=E2=80=99s_crucial_to_start_w?= =?utf-8?q?earing_masks_indoors_again?= Message-ID: "Delta has changed the course of the pandemic in the United States yet again. After spurring a summer surge in COVID-19 cases, the more transmissible coronavirus variant is now driving federal health officials? decision to recommend that everyone, regardless of vaccination status, wear masks again in indoor public places. That?s especially important in areas where infection rates are high, Rochelle Walensky, director of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, said during a news conference July 27 to announce revised masking guidelines. New evidence that vaccinated people with breakthrough infections of the delta variant produce just as much virus as infected, unvaccinated people prompted the new guidance. That suggests that these people may also easily spread the virus. ?We have new science related to the delta variant that requires us to update the guidance regarding what you can do when you?re fully vaccinated,? Walensky said. This reverses the CDC?s May recommendation that fully vaccinated people could ditch the masks. That decision was based, in part, on the low chance that vaccinated people could spread the virus (*SN: 5/24/21*). If they do get a breakthrough infection, people vaccinated with one of the mRNA vaccines have about 40 percent less virus in their noses than infected, unvaccinated people do, researchers reported July 22 in the *New England Journal of Medicine*. But that data was based on infections with earlier variants of the virus.Unvaccinated people should get vaccinated and wear masks in public indoor settings until fully vaccinated, she recommended. Additionally, fully vaccinated people in places with ?high or substantial? transmission rates should also mask up when indoors again. The CDC considers substantial transmission to be 50 to 100 cases out of every 100,000 people in the population over a seven-day period. Some places are reporting more than 300 cases per 100,000 people in a week, she said. ?Really an extraordinary amount of viral transmission.? And everyone in schools should wear a mask, regardless of vaccination status, the CDC recommends. ?The delta variant behaves uniquely differently from past strains of the virus that causes COVID-19,? Walensky said. It?s ?unlike the alpha variant we had back in May where we didn?t believe that if you were vaccinated you could transmit further.? In rare instances, fully vaccinated people may get infected with the delta variant and spread it to others, new data from several states and other countries shows, she said. The amount of virus vaccinated people with a delta variant breakthrough infection produce is similar to that of unvaccinated people, she said. ?This new science is worrisome,? she said. The vaccines are still effective at preventing serious illness and death, studies have shown. Until the vast majority of people are vaccinated, ?mask wearing will help reduce infections, prevent serious illnesses and death, limit strain on local hospitals and stave off the development of even more troubling variants, Barbara Alexander, an infectious diseases expert at Duke University School of Medicine and president of the Infectious Diseases Society of America, said in a statement. The majority of transmission is still happening among and through unvaccinated people, Walensky said. Breakthrough infections remain rare , but exactly how rare they are with the delta variant isn?t known (*SN: 5/4/21*). The CDC collects data on breakthrough infections in hospitalized people, but not those who get infected but have mild cases. The public health agency is also actively testing more than 20 groups of vaccinated people for COVID-19, including tens of thousands of health care workers, essential workers and other caregivers. Results of that surveillance will be reported soon, Walensky said." https://www.sciencenews.org/article/cdc-covid-coronavirus-masks-indoors-vaccinated-people-pandemic -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Tue Aug 10 00:13:40 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2021 17:13:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Potential role of 'junk DNA' sequence in aging, cancer Message-ID: "Researchers have recently identified a DNA region known as VNTR2-1 that appears to drive the activity of the telomerase gene, which has been shown to prevent aging in certain types of cells. Knowing how the telomerase gene is regulated and activated and why it is only active in certain cell types could someday be the key to understanding how humans age and how to stop the spread of cancer." https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/07/210723105258.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Tue Aug 10 00:16:29 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2021 17:16:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Future Space Travel Might Require Mushrooms Message-ID: "In a new ?astromycological? venture launched in conjunction with NASA , Stamets and various research teams are studying how fungi can be leveraged to build extraterrestrial habitats and perhaps someday even terraform planets. This is not the first time Stamets?s career has intersected with speculative space science. He also recently received an honor that many researchers would consider only slightly less hallowed than a Nobel Prize: the distinction of having a *Star Trek *character named after him. *Scientific American *spoke with Stamets about the out-of-this-world implications for the emerging field of astromycology." https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/space-travels-most-surprising-future-ingredient-mushrooms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Tue Aug 10 00:33:44 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2021 17:33:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Computer Scientist Training AI to Think with Analogies Message-ID: I remember that *G?del, Escher, Bach* was Eliezer Yudkowsky's favorite book. I hope that his think tank is doing well. "The Pulitzer Prize-winning book *G?del, Escher, Bach* inspired legions of computer scientists in 1979, but few were as inspired as Melanie Mitchell . After reading the 777-page tome, Mitchell, a high school math teacher in New York, decided she ?needed to be? in artificial intelligence. She soon tracked down the book?s author, AI researcher Douglas Hofstadter, and talked him into giving her an internship. She had only taken a handful of computer science courses at the time, but he seemed impressed with her chutzpah and unconcerned about her academic credentials. Mitchell prepared a ?last-minute? graduate school application and joined Hofstadter?s new lab at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor. The two spent the next six years collaborating closely on Copycat , a computer program which, in the words of its co-creators , was designed to ?discover insightful analogies, and to do so in a psychologically realistic way.? The analogies Copycat came up with were between simple patterns of letters, akin to the analogies on standardized tests. One example: ?If the string ?abc? changes to the string ?abd,? what does the string ?pqrs? change to?? Hofstadter and Mitchell believed that understanding the cognitive process of analogy?how human beings make abstract connections between similar ideas, perceptions and experiences?would be crucial to unlocking humanlike artificial intelligence. Mitchell maintains that analogy can go much deeper than exam-style pattern matching. ?It?s understanding the essence of a situation by mapping it to another situation that is already understood,? she said. ?If you tell me a story and I say, ?Oh, the same thing happened to me,? literally the same thing did not happen to me that happened to you, but I can make a mapping that makes it seem very analogous. It?s something that we humans do all the time without even realizing we?re doing it. We?re swimming in this sea of analogies constantly.? As the Davis professor of complexity at the Santa Fe Institute, Mitchell has broadened her research beyond machine learning. She?s currently leading SFI?s Foundations of Intelligence in Natural and Artificial Systems project, which will convene a series of interdisciplinary workshops over the next year examining how biological evolution, collective behavior (like that of social insects such as ants) and a physical body all contribute to intelligence. But the role of analogy looms larger than ever in her work, especially in AI?a field whose major advances over the past decade have been largely driven by deep neural networks, a technology that mimics the layered organization of neurons in mammal brains. ?Today?s state-of-the-art neural networks are very good at certain tasks,? she said, ?but they?re very bad at taking what they?ve learned in one kind of situation and transferring it to another??the essence of analogy." https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-computer-scientist-training-ai-to-think-with-analogies/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Mon Aug 9 09:33:08 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2021 10:33:08 +0100 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?DeepMind=E2=80=99s_Vibrant_New_Virtual_World_Tra?= =?utf-8?q?ins_Flexible_AI_With_Endless_Play?= In-Reply-To: <9a58fac1-0f41-6b63-31b1-531a2897febf@pobox.com> References: <3c0042d5-7233-2701-8ece-84d8cbf3b2f4@pobox.com> <3dfd8ccc-e419-1375-ed41-3874264dc69f@pobox.com> <9a58fac1-0f41-6b63-31b1-531a2897febf@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Aug 2021 at 03:23, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat wrote: > > On 2021-8-08 03:47, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > > No, John's computer is OK and set to his local time. > > That's the Exi-chat mail server that says -0700. > > All the Exi-chat posts have -0700 (including your emails). > > For example, this one from you says > Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2021 11:47:15 +0100 > > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > _______________________________________________ It depends on which of the many dates and times in the headers of Exi posts that your mail system decides to display. Plenty of confusion is possible. But to go back to your original complaint, the Philippines time zone is 8 hours ahead of UTC and California is 7 hours behind UTC. So it is perfectly possible for some of the dates in the headers of John's posts to show a relaxed Saturday date while California people are still fighting their way through Friday's terrors. The Exi list is international after all. BillK From ben at zaiboc.net Mon Aug 9 10:57:16 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2021 11:57:16 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Golden Age In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 08/08/2021 23:08, Darin Sunley wrote: > What happened?is we won. The most bizarre, normie-freaking > future-shocking far-out speculations that were the meat and potatoes > of this list flowed outwards and became the water western civilization > is currently swimming in. > Exactly. The 'Golden Age' of transhumanist/futurist thought in the UK used to be the days when it was 'six guys in a pub' (one of them was Aubrey de Grey), talking about stuff that most people would, (and many did), dismiss as science-fiction. Now there are thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of people of all ages, interested and talking about this stuff, who realise it's not fiction at all. There are dozens of student transhumanist societies here, and these ideas are spreading out like ripples into wider society. The six guys have gone their separate ways now, and the Penderell's Oak on High Holborn is no longer Transhumanist Central UK. That's a good thing. It's progress. So I don't think we should be bemoaning the fact that the Ex-Chat list isn't one of the very few places that extropians/transhumanists hang out anymore, we should be celebrating it. Ben From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 9 15:16:10 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2021 08:16:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against China attack on Taiwan In-Reply-To: References: <20210807231238.Horde.EJQpjGjbKgor582zy5AEhM6@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <01fc01d78cd8$74c76c50$5e5644f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007c01d78d31$7c6f6cb0$754e4610$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Grigg via extropy-chat Sent: Monday, August 9, 2021 1:28 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: John Grigg Subject: Re: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against China attack on Taiwan >?Oh, and don't forget about the Russian super-cavitation torpedoes! Lol But what about drone swarms around warships, to keep them safe above and below the water? And my understanding is that far more powerful lasers will be deployed ? >?Spike, I feel like you are being defeatist, but then you are an experienced engineer so perhaps you have knowledge the rest of us don't. I personally think you don't fully grok how if the CCP is appeased and gets their way, that American hegemony will be seen by the world as coming to an end ?John John the notion of super-cavitating torpedoes is intentional misinformation by the Russians in my opinion. The laws of nature are stubborn things. Torpedoes travel above the water and can also be sent in swarms just as defenders drones. In the long run, the attacker has gained the advantage on the sea surface. I too was very puzzled that the US military would leak the outcome of a wargame. I don?t recall ever seeing that happen before. Do you? It sure appeared to be an invitation for China to attack Taiwan, a clear signal the US intended to stand down if they proceed. One can scarcely imagine how Israel is viewing all this, and Japan must be very worried. Africa is already well on the way to becoming Chinese owned. How else can we interpret it? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Aug 9 15:24:29 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2021 10:24:29 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Pentagon leak Message-ID: Two scenarios: 1 - the leak was intentional; 2 - it was not. Exercise: devise explanations for each of these. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Aug 9 15:33:11 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2021 10:33:11 -0500 Subject: [ExI] quote of the day Message-ID: >From the New York Times; ?There Is a Right and Wrong Way to Tickle a Rat? Short course in how to do it: According to the center?s researchers, there are three proper ways to tickle a rat. - Dorsal contact: Touch the back of the rat?s neck with quick, light movements. Avoid the tail and haunches, as these areas are where aggression from other rats is directed. - Flipping: Gently restrain the rat around its front legs and lift it while rotating your wrist to flip the rat onto its back. This movement is ?the most difficult part of rat tickling but the most beneficial,? the center said, since it closely mimics what happens when rats wrestle. - Pinning: Tickle the rat between its front legs and on its chest while applying a firm, constant pressure to keep the rat on its back. comment - rats wrestle? For the purpose of tickling? Is this sexual? Oddity - somehow this reminds me of the recipe: "Take a 5 pound bass......." bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 9 16:23:21 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2021 09:23:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Pentagon leak In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002401d78d3a$df535900$9dfa0b00$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Pentagon leak >>?Two scenarios: 1 - the leak was intentional; 2 - it was not. >>?Exercise: devise explanations for each of these. Billw >??The US military put its new warfighting concept for future warfare to the test in a wargaming exercise last fall and it did not go well, Vice Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. John Hyten said Monday, multiple defense outlets reported. "Without overstating the issue, it failed miserably," Hyten said at the National Defense Industrial Association's Emerging Technologies Institute, according to Defense One.? https://www.businessinsider.com/us-military-failed-miserably-in-war-game-changing-warfighting-strategy-2021-7 I didn?t look seriously into scenario 2. I can?t figure out why they would let this information out, other than to signal to Taiwan and the rest of the world that the US will stand down if China takes Taiwan. Then once they do, the next step is Vietnam, Korea and Japan, along with any part of Africa worth taking. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Aug 9 16:24:16 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2021 11:24:16 -0500 Subject: [ExI] wikipedia - free speech Message-ID: Categories of speech that are given lesser or no protection by the First Amendment include obscenity (as determined by the Miller test ), fraud , child pornography, speech integral to illegal conduct,[15] speech that incites imminent lawless action , and regulation of commercial speech such as advertising.[16] [17] Within these limited areas, other limitations on free speech balance rights to free speech and other rights, such as rights for authors over their works ( copyright ), protection from imminent or potential violence against particular persons, restrictions on the use of untruths to harm others (slander and libel ), and communications while a person is in prison. When a speech restriction is challenged in court, it is presumed invalid and the government bears the burden of convincing the court that the restriction is constitutional.[18] bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Aug 9 16:55:04 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2021 09:55:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Pentagon leak In-Reply-To: <002401d78d3a$df535900$9dfa0b00$@rainier66.com> References: <002401d78d3a$df535900$9dfa0b00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 9, 2021 at 9:25 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* [ExI] Pentagon leak > > > > >>?Two scenarios: 1 - the leak was intentional; 2 - it was not. > > > > >>?Exercise: devise explanations for each of these. > > > > Billw > > > > > > >??The US military put its new warfighting concept for future warfare to > the test in a wargaming exercise last fall and it did not go well, Vice > Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. John Hyten said Monday, multiple > defense outlets reported. > > "Without overstating the issue, it failed miserably," Hyten said at the > National Defense Industrial Association's Emerging Technologies Institute, according > to Defense One > > .? > > > https://www.businessinsider.com/us-military-failed-miserably-in-war-game-changing-warfighting-strategy-2021-7 > > > > > > I didn?t look seriously into scenario 2. I can?t figure out why they > would let this information out, other than to signal to Taiwan and the rest > of the world that the US will stand down if China takes Taiwan. Then once > they do, the next step is Vietnam, Korea and Japan, along with any part of > Africa worth taking. > > > > spike > Scenario 3: this wasn't a leak. I've seen this before: the information is already getting out there, so the high-ups try to get out in front of it, talking to the press to shape the story before the actual leak can reach the people they care about. In this case, it is possible - even likely - that the wargaming exercise was observed by foreign military, who will eventually report on it. Their report would be picked up by the press if the US military did not report on it first. Since the US military did report on it first, they got some say in how it was spun. "We tried this and failed," sounds very different than, "they tried that, failed, and did not admit it". -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Mon Aug 9 17:07:48 2021 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2021 13:07:48 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Pentagon leak In-Reply-To: References: <002401d78d3a$df535900$9dfa0b00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 9, 2021, 12:57 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > would be picked up by the press if the US military did not report on it > first. Since the US military did report on it first, they got some say in > how it was spun. "We tried this and failed," sounds very different than, > "they tried that, failed, and did not admit it". > Also misinformation and subterfuge If I read Sun Tzu correctly, hide your strength or make it appear to be a weakness so they are unprepared. In an information war, lies are weaponized > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Aug 9 17:14:56 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2021 10:14:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against China attack on Taiwan In-Reply-To: References: <20210807231238.Horde.EJQpjGjbKgor582zy5AEhM6@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <01fc01d78cd8$74c76c50$5e5644f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: And in the time it takes them to do it, the US's nuclear strike capability can be wrecked. That aside, launching a counterstrike against China or Russia just means more devastation visited upon the US in response. Other actors might plausibly be believed to not be able to strike back against a counterstrike. On Mon, Aug 9, 2021 at 1:38 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The intelligence agencies would have to uncover a definite smoking gun > before revenge was sought. > > On Mon, Aug 9, 2021 at 1:02 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Still enough to potentially cause US nukes not to fly back in >> retaliation, for fear of hitting an innocent country. >> >> On Mon, Aug 9, 2021 at 12:01 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> The only hostile nations with the ability to attack America that way are >>> Russia, China, Iran (sooner rather than later) and North Korea. A very >>> short list... >>> >>> On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 11:47 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> No, it'd be obvious it wasn't terrorists. This is way beyond what >>>> terrorists can muster. Only China has motivation and capability to nuke >>>> Taiwan...but China isn't the only one able and willing (if they think they >>>> can get away with it) to nuke the US. >>>> >>>> On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 11:32 PM John Grigg via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> And so the CCP does this "secretly" to Taiwan and then says to them, >>>>> "oh, my gosh!" "What a horrible act of terrorism some unknown villains did >>>>> to you!" "Well, due to our huge concern for you, we will immediately send >>>>> 250,000 members of our armed services with lots of equipment to help you >>>>> rebuild!" LOL >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 11:23 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> "Defeatist" might be elaborating on the possibility of nuclear >>>>>> torpedoes, launched deniably underwater, coming within a kilometer or so of >>>>>> the shore, popping up, and nuking whatever near-shore city there is. Note >>>>>> that around half of America's biggest cities are near or on an oceanic >>>>>> coast. As they only show up on sensors (sonar at first) well after being >>>>>> fired, there's no proof of who to retaliate against, removing the biggest >>>>>> practical obstacle to a major power using them. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 10:26 PM John Grigg via extropy-chat < >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Oh, and don't forget about the Russian super-cavitation torpedoes! >>>>>>> Lol But what about drone swarms around warships, to keep them safe above >>>>>>> and below the water? And my understanding is that far more powerful lasers >>>>>>> will be deployed on our ships within the next few years. And there are the >>>>>>> vulcan guns to shoot a million big bullets at incoming missiles. But of >>>>>>> course their targeting systems have to be up to the task. And I would like >>>>>>> to think the military has some awesome above top secret weapons systems >>>>>>> that are in storage and ready to go, if war comes. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Spike, I feel like you are being defeatist, but then you are an >>>>>>> experienced engineer so perhaps you have knowledge the rest of us don't. I >>>>>>> personally think you don't fully grok how if the CCP is appeased and gets >>>>>>> their way, that American hegemony will be seen by the world as coming to an >>>>>>> end and things will never be the same. Our allies will realize that when >>>>>>> push comes to shove, and then war, that we give in to China. Jinping will >>>>>>> play his hand by telling an American president who wants to oppose a CCP >>>>>>> invasion of Taiwan, that he is risking the destruction of the global >>>>>>> economy and even the world, should things escalate to the use of nuclear >>>>>>> weapons. America must not give in to a tyrant who thinks he can get away >>>>>>> with such behavior, despite the possible risks. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> John >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 9:40 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < >>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: extropy-chat On >>>>>>>> Behalf Of >>>>>>>> Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat >>>>>>>> ... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >...I feel that losing the Taiwan scenario in a war game is just >>>>>>>> the wake up >>>>>>>> call that the U.S. naval commanders needed to keep them from >>>>>>>> fighting the >>>>>>>> previous war. The fact that the U.S. lost the war game might mean >>>>>>>> they have >>>>>>>> not figured this out yet. But the fact that the outcome of the war >>>>>>>> game >>>>>>>> leaked may mean that they have.... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Stuart LaForge >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Stuart, torpedo technology has far outpaced anti-missile technology. >>>>>>>> Torpedoes fly above the water at speeds higher than shipborne >>>>>>>> lasers can >>>>>>>> defend. Result: flattops (and all other surface ships) cannot be >>>>>>>> defended. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We have had Taiwan money flowing into the states for a long time >>>>>>>> now. What >>>>>>>> I read in this leak is that the US is signaling to the money >>>>>>>> remaining in >>>>>>>> Taiwan to get out now: the USA will not defend because it cannot. >>>>>>>> But the >>>>>>>> USA will cheerfully accept rich people from Taiwan to come here to >>>>>>>> live in >>>>>>>> peace. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spike >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Aug 9 17:15:32 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2021 10:15:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Pentagon leak In-Reply-To: References: <002401d78d3a$df535900$9dfa0b00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 9, 2021 at 10:09 AM Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > If I read Sun Tzu correctly, hide your strength or make it appear to be a > weakness so they are unprepared. > > In an information war, lies are weaponized > That is certainly a possibility too. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Aug 9 18:08:24 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2021 13:08:24 -0500 Subject: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against China attack on Taiwan In-Reply-To: References: <20210807231238.Horde.EJQpjGjbKgor582zy5AEhM6@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <01fc01d78cd8$74c76c50$5e5644f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Yeah, the question is: is Taiwan and our obligations worth getting attacked on our mainland? I vote NO! bill w On Mon, Aug 9, 2021 at 12:17 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > And in the time it takes them to do it, the US's nuclear strike capability > can be wrecked. > > That aside, launching a counterstrike against China or Russia just means > more devastation visited upon the US in response. Other actors might > plausibly be believed to not be able to strike back against a counterstrike. > > On Mon, Aug 9, 2021 at 1:38 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> The intelligence agencies would have to uncover a definite smoking gun >> before revenge was sought. >> >> On Mon, Aug 9, 2021 at 1:02 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Still enough to potentially cause US nukes not to fly back in >>> retaliation, for fear of hitting an innocent country. >>> >>> On Mon, Aug 9, 2021 at 12:01 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> The only hostile nations with the ability to attack America that way >>>> are Russia, China, Iran (sooner rather than later) and North Korea. A very >>>> short list... >>>> >>>> On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 11:47 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> No, it'd be obvious it wasn't terrorists. This is way beyond what >>>>> terrorists can muster. Only China has motivation and capability to nuke >>>>> Taiwan...but China isn't the only one able and willing (if they think they >>>>> can get away with it) to nuke the US. >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 11:32 PM John Grigg via extropy-chat < >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> And so the CCP does this "secretly" to Taiwan and then says to them, >>>>>> "oh, my gosh!" "What a horrible act of terrorism some unknown villains did >>>>>> to you!" "Well, due to our huge concern for you, we will immediately send >>>>>> 250,000 members of our armed services with lots of equipment to help you >>>>>> rebuild!" LOL >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 11:23 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> "Defeatist" might be elaborating on the possibility of nuclear >>>>>>> torpedoes, launched deniably underwater, coming within a kilometer or so of >>>>>>> the shore, popping up, and nuking whatever near-shore city there is. Note >>>>>>> that around half of America's biggest cities are near or on an oceanic >>>>>>> coast. As they only show up on sensors (sonar at first) well after being >>>>>>> fired, there's no proof of who to retaliate against, removing the biggest >>>>>>> practical obstacle to a major power using them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 10:26 PM John Grigg via extropy-chat < >>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Oh, and don't forget about the Russian super-cavitation torpedoes! >>>>>>>> Lol But what about drone swarms around warships, to keep them safe above >>>>>>>> and below the water? And my understanding is that far more powerful lasers >>>>>>>> will be deployed on our ships within the next few years. And there are the >>>>>>>> vulcan guns to shoot a million big bullets at incoming missiles. But of >>>>>>>> course their targeting systems have to be up to the task. And I would like >>>>>>>> to think the military has some awesome above top secret weapons systems >>>>>>>> that are in storage and ready to go, if war comes. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Spike, I feel like you are being defeatist, but then you are an >>>>>>>> experienced engineer so perhaps you have knowledge the rest of us don't. I >>>>>>>> personally think you don't fully grok how if the CCP is appeased and gets >>>>>>>> their way, that American hegemony will be seen by the world as coming to an >>>>>>>> end and things will never be the same. Our allies will realize that when >>>>>>>> push comes to shove, and then war, that we give in to China. Jinping will >>>>>>>> play his hand by telling an American president who wants to oppose a CCP >>>>>>>> invasion of Taiwan, that he is risking the destruction of the global >>>>>>>> economy and even the world, should things escalate to the use of nuclear >>>>>>>> weapons. America must not give in to a tyrant who thinks he can get away >>>>>>>> with such behavior, despite the possible risks. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> John >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 9:40 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < >>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: extropy-chat On >>>>>>>>> Behalf Of >>>>>>>>> Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat >>>>>>>>> ... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >...I feel that losing the Taiwan scenario in a war game is just >>>>>>>>> the wake up >>>>>>>>> call that the U.S. naval commanders needed to keep them from >>>>>>>>> fighting the >>>>>>>>> previous war. The fact that the U.S. lost the war game might mean >>>>>>>>> they have >>>>>>>>> not figured this out yet. But the fact that the outcome of the war >>>>>>>>> game >>>>>>>>> leaked may mean that they have.... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Stuart LaForge >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Stuart, torpedo technology has far outpaced anti-missile >>>>>>>>> technology. >>>>>>>>> Torpedoes fly above the water at speeds higher than shipborne >>>>>>>>> lasers can >>>>>>>>> defend. Result: flattops (and all other surface ships) cannot be >>>>>>>>> defended. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> We have had Taiwan money flowing into the states for a long time >>>>>>>>> now. What >>>>>>>>> I read in this leak is that the US is signaling to the money >>>>>>>>> remaining in >>>>>>>>> Taiwan to get out now: the USA will not defend because it cannot. >>>>>>>>> But the >>>>>>>>> USA will cheerfully accept rich people from Taiwan to come here to >>>>>>>>> live in >>>>>>>>> peace. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> spike >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 9 18:52:38 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2021 11:52:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against China attack on Taiwan In-Reply-To: References: <20210807231238.Horde.EJQpjGjbKgor582zy5AEhM6@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <01fc01d78cd8$74c76c50$5e5644f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005401d78d4f$ba065930$2e130b90$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against China attack on Taiwan >?Yeah, the question is: is Taiwan and our obligations worth getting attacked on our mainland? I vote NO! bill w Communist theory holds that all countries everywhere will eventually be commie, by choice or by force. There is no hurry on it, so they can wait for the most opportune moment to grab Taiwan. That (to me) is looking like sooner rather than later. Once they have Taiwan, they can set their sights on Laos, Burma, Thailand and Cambodia. They leave a Middle East alone for the most part, colonize parts of Africa that no one will care about, even after they start moving the Africans onto reservations. I don?t expect these developments will happen quickly, but I expect them all to happen. An attack on Taiwan will be step one. I predict the USA will do nothing. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Mon Aug 9 22:21:36 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2021 15:21:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?DeepMind=E2=80=99s_Vibrant_New_Virtual_World_Tra?= =?utf-8?q?ins_Flexible_AI_With_Endless_Play?= In-Reply-To: References: <3c0042d5-7233-2701-8ece-84d8cbf3b2f4@pobox.com> <3dfd8ccc-e419-1375-ed41-3874264dc69f@pobox.com> <9a58fac1-0f41-6b63-31b1-531a2897febf@pobox.com> Message-ID: <431f0991-d46b-3fe2-b9a1-43583d769b71@pobox.com> On 2021-8-09 02:33, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > It depends on which of the many dates and times in the headers of Exi posts > that your mail system decides to display. There is only one "Date:", and what I see is consistent with it. > Plenty of confusion is possible. > > But to go back to your original complaint, the Philippines time zone > is 8 hours ahead of UTC and California is 7 hours behind UTC. So it > is perfectly possible for some of the dates in the headers of John's > posts to show a relaxed Saturday date while California people are > still fighting their way through Friday's terrors. > The Exi list is international after all. Yes, anything is possible except that someone other than me made a mistake. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Tue Aug 10 18:32:07 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2021 11:32:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Pentagon leak In-Reply-To: References: <002401d78d3a$df535900$9dfa0b00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: A big concern is that the U.S. Navy bunched up their warships, making them in theory easier to track and hit (but then a carrier taskforce's strength is the layers of protection around a carrier due to all the warships around it), and that the ships got too close to CCP missile defenses. I think the navy may have been doing the classic military industrial complex move of "we need more money" if you don't want this to happen in real life! And already the navy awhile back asked for the army and air force to have their budgets slashed by 25%, to have that money given to the navy to build many more ships, to try to keep up with China's explosive rate of shipbuilding. On Mon, Aug 9, 2021 at 10:22 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, Aug 9, 2021 at 10:09 AM Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> If I read Sun Tzu correctly, hide your strength or make it appear to be a >> weakness so they are unprepared. >> >> In an information war, lies are weaponized >> > > That is certainly a possibility too. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Tue Aug 10 18:41:54 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2021 11:41:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against China attack on Taiwan In-Reply-To: <005401d78d4f$ba065930$2e130b90$@rainier66.com> References: <20210807231238.Horde.EJQpjGjbKgor582zy5AEhM6@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <01fc01d78cd8$74c76c50$5e5644f0$@rainier66.com> <005401d78d4f$ba065930$2e130b90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I predict the US will go into action to fight China and defend Taiwan, no matter the risks. We will see how the wargames compare to reality! Lol The war could prove to be one of the greatest military upsets in history, or it could be an extremely bloody morale boost to a very troubled America. I think it will happen within the next five years, as supposedly does U.S. Naval Command. I have been following this subject closely online and the U.S. Navy and the Pentagon at this point are basically on nearly a war footing when it comes to preparing for a future shooting match with China. And as part of that effort they are trying to drastically speed up the design, testing and building of weapons systems. They suspect they are getting ready for conflict on borrowed time. The war drums are being played loudly on both sides of the Pacific! On Mon, Aug 9, 2021 at 11:54 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against > China attack on Taiwan > > > > >?Yeah, the question is: is Taiwan and our obligations worth getting > attacked on our mainland? I vote NO! bill w > > > > > > Communist theory holds that all countries everywhere will eventually be > commie, by choice or by force. There is no hurry on it, so they can wait > for the most opportune moment to grab Taiwan. That (to me) is looking like > sooner rather than later. > > > > Once they have Taiwan, they can set their sights on Laos, Burma, Thailand > and Cambodia. They leave a Middle East alone for the most part, colonize > parts of Africa that no one will care about, even after they start moving > the Africans onto reservations. > > > > I don?t expect these developments will happen quickly, but I expect them > all to happen. An attack on Taiwan will be step one. I predict the USA > will do nothing. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 10 05:54:54 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2021 22:54:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against China attack on Taiwan In-Reply-To: References: <20210807231238.Horde.EJQpjGjbKgor582zy5AEhM6@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <01fc01d78cd8$74c76c50$5e5644f0$@rainier66.com> <005401d78d4f$ba065930$2e130b90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006c01d78dac$3ecafa20$bc60ee60$@rainier66.com> >? On Behalf Of John Grigg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against China attack on Taiwan >?I predict the US will go into action to fight China and defend Taiwan, no matter the risks. We will see how the wargames compare to reality! Lol The war could prove to be one of the greatest military upsets in history, or it could be an extremely bloody morale boost to a very troubled America. I think it will happen within the next five years, as supposedly does U.S. Naval Command. >?I have been following this subject closely online and the U.S. Navy and the Pentagon at this point are basically on nearly a war footing when it comes to preparing for a future shooting match with China. And as part of that effort they are trying to drastically speed up the design, testing and building of weapons systems. They suspect they are getting ready for conflict on borrowed time. The war drums are being played loudly on both sides of the Pacific! John, international rules differ from the rules of human interaction. An example is the well-known principle that weakness is provocation. When the value of any nation exceeds the cost to an attacker to take it, an attacker will take it. That well-known principle has a corollary: If the cost of defending any ally exceeds the value of that ally, the defending country will not defend that ally. The USA sent a clear and powerful message to the world by revealing the outcome of those war games. The USA will not defend Taiwan. The cost of defending Taiwan exceeds the value of Taiwan. I can see why this is of particular interest to you John, for once China bites off Taiwan and several of the other eastern nations, it is only a matter of time before it sets its sights on the Philippines. China is both patient and ambitious. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Tue Aug 10 22:49:39 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2021 15:49:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against China attack on Taiwan In-Reply-To: <006c01d78dac$3ecafa20$bc60ee60$@rainier66.com> References: <20210807231238.Horde.EJQpjGjbKgor582zy5AEhM6@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <01fc01d78cd8$74c76c50$5e5644f0$@rainier66.com> <005401d78d4f$ba065930$2e130b90$@rainier66.com> <006c01d78dac$3ecafa20$bc60ee60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike wrote: "The USA sent a clear and powerful message to the world by revealing the outcome of those war games. The USA will not defend Taiwan. The cost of defending Taiwan exceeds the value of Taiwan." You are assuming a reason for the leak which could very easily be completely wrong. I think you have a strong bias due to your strong desire that the U.S. not risk a potential nuclear war by getting involved in a shooting match with China. The leak could have happened due to the navy wanting more resources to prepare for a possible war, or as a means of deceiving China and making them think we are far more vulnerable than we actually are in reality. "I can see why this is of particular interest to you John, for once China bites off Taiwan and several of the other eastern nations, it is only a matter of time before it sets its sights on the Philippines. China is both patient and ambitious." China parked over 200 large fishing/militia vessels within Filipino territorial waters. It took the two new guided missile frigates purchased from South Korea, with two American aircraft carriers within attack range backing them up, for the majority of the Chinese vessels to pull up their anchors and finally leave. The navy of the Philippines until recently was embarrassingly out of date, but they at least now have three new guided missile frigates and three corvettes, all from South Korea and built with an emphasis on anti-submarine warfare. They are now looking at the possibility of obtaining two diesel powered attack submarines. And they hope to update their air force, by possibly buying some Saab Gripen fighter bombers or F-16's. The Swedish plane may be the better option for them. Ultimately, these improvements give them a definite sting, though China's military will always dwarf them. I am hoping that whoever is elected as the next president of the Philippines, that they reopen Subic Bay as an American navy base. There had been a plan to do it that almost happened, but Duerte vetoed it. I respect his motivation, that he did not want to offend China, but ultimately, that did not earn him good treatment from Jinping. The plan is to not only reopen Subic, but build an advanced shipbuilding facility, where American and western engineers and technicians can teach the Filipinos how to build frigate and corvette class warships, among other types. At first these would be for their own navy, and they would know how to repair and maintain the vessels, rather than depending on the United States. Over time the Philippines could even start selling the vessels abroad, and have an arms industry that could employ many thousands of people and help to defend the region from Chinese hostility. We shall see. Duerte wanted to suck up to China and reap the benefits, but he was treated very disrespectfully by Jinping, despite those efforts. And the senate of the Philippines rejected the huge loan offer from China, that potentially could have transformed the country, because it was basically a financial trap that the Philippines could have easily fallen into, with their infrastructure being seized as a penalty. But China does not really need to land marines in Manilla Harbor because they are already here in force at an economic level. There are now at least *300,000* Chinese citizens here, legal and illegal (many illegal) who are here for both legal and illicit business enterprises. And from what I have read, the CCP encourages this, as a means of softening/influencing this country. The Chinese triads are one the the big drivers here for this activity, in terms of human trafficking. And illegal online gambling websites are a huge and super profitable industry among some of the Chinese immigrants. The Philippines is known as a place where they can engage in such activities and not be as heavily policed as back home. And keep in mind that the super wealthy upper classes here are of Chinese origin. They have been here for centuries, but many are fifty, seventy-five percent, or even one-hundred percent Chinese in terms of blood. And of course their loyalty is to themselves and not the CCP. But still, they are networked into the Chinese diaspora, which is to their advantage. I don't see them as caring very much about the general population of the Philippines, for various reasons, but then over the centuries their ancestors faced horrible persecution for being different. But they certainly came out on top and are now the power behind the throne of whoever is elected. I suppose they hope they can in time come to an understanding with the CCP about their place in China's master plan. A similar thing was tried when Imperial Japan occupied the Philippines, but ultimately the Japanese went on a killing spree that resulted in many of the wealthiest having their families decimated by mass executions that were meant to break the will to resist. I'm not sure how truly patient China is, though this is a stereotyped quality of Asian behavior. Many people view Xi Jinping as not patient, because his ego stands in his way, and he wants the personal glory of going down in the history books as the Chinese leader who conquered China. And so he has probably roughly fifteen years to do it, before he gets too old and gets put out to pasture. This actually concerns loyal CCP leaders, who are afraid that he will have China go to war against the West before they are ready, resulting in a humiliating defeat which might actually end up destroying the CCP. But yes, they are ambitious to be sure. But until recently, world leaders seemed not to take seriously their statements about planning to dominate the world, and remake it with China in the American role as the leading power. John On Mon, Aug 9, 2021 at 10:57 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *>?* *On Behalf Of *John Grigg via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against > China attack on Taiwan > > > > >?I predict the US will go into action to fight China and defend Taiwan, > no matter the risks. We will see how the wargames compare to reality! Lol > The war could prove to be one of the greatest military upsets in history, > or it could be an extremely bloody morale boost to a very troubled America. > I think it will happen within the next five years, as supposedly does > U.S. Naval Command. > > > > >?I have been following this subject closely online and the U.S. Navy and > the Pentagon at this point are basically on nearly a war footing when it > comes to preparing for a future shooting match with China. And as part of > that effort they are trying to drastically speed up the design, testing and > building of weapons systems. They suspect they are getting ready for > conflict on borrowed time. The war drums are being played loudly on both > sides of the Pacific! > > > > > > > > John, international rules differ from the rules of human interaction. An > example is the well-known principle that weakness is provocation. When the > value of any nation exceeds the cost to an attacker to take it, an attacker > will take it. > > > > That well-known principle has a corollary: If the cost of defending any > ally exceeds the value of that ally, the defending country will not defend > that ally. > > > > The USA sent a clear and powerful message to the world by revealing the > outcome of those war games. The USA will not defend Taiwan. The cost of > defending Taiwan exceeds the value of Taiwan. > > > > I can see why this is of particular interest to you John, for once China > bites off Taiwan and several of the other eastern nations, it is only a > matter of time before it sets its sights on the Philippines. China is both > patient and ambitious. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 10 16:44:53 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2021 11:44:53 -0500 Subject: [ExI] dark matter Message-ID: As most of you know, all I know about physics I learned in 1959 - 11th grade. Keep that in mind. I am reading Dark Matter by Blake Crouch - dead cat, live cat, quantum, multiverse, etc. We don't know what dark matter is, can't measure it, but think it makes up most of the universe. Do you see a contradiction here? OK, so it's theoretical (made up to explain something, I reckon). Now the multiverse: just tell me - from the very bottom of your scientific soul, do you really believe that there are infinite numbers of universes where all of us exist in very similar lives? Or is it just a cool idea that is fun to play around with? Did you like the book? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Aug 10 21:17:07 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2021 14:17:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] dark matter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well said. I keep wondering if the concept of dark matter is ultimately just patching over some measurement errors. On Tue, Aug 10, 2021, 1:49 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > As most of you know, all I know about physics I learned in 1959 - 11th > grade. Keep that in mind. > > I am reading Dark Matter by Blake Crouch - dead cat, live cat, quantum, > multiverse, etc. > > We don't know what dark matter is, can't measure it, but think it makes up > most of the universe. Do you see a contradiction here? OK, so it's > theoretical (made up to explain something, I reckon). > > Now the multiverse: just tell me - from the very bottom of your > scientific soul, do you really believe that there are infinite numbers of > universes where all of us exist in very similar lives? Or is it just a > cool idea that is fun to play around with? > > Did you like the book? bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 10 21:29:46 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2021 14:29:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] dark matter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001301d78e2e$d8070ee0$88152ca0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] dark matter Well said. >?I keep wondering if the concept of dark matter is ultimately just patching over some measurement errors? Hmmmm, not so much measurement errors but a kind of blanket covering the stuff we still don?t really understand. We can observe galaxies, we can measure the luminosity as a function of distance. We can do the calculations on how the orbit velocity should be changing as we go outboard on those spiral arms, which gives us what it should be doing. We can measure by spectral shift how the orbit velocity is changing. But it isn?t doing what it is supposed to do. It can only do what it is doing if there is a pile of matter we can?t see, which doesn?t really interact with visible matter other than gravitationally. It behaves just like visible matter gravitationally, but doesn?t interact otherwise. That?s bad enough. That?s an ugly enough theory. But it gets even uglier: different galaxies have differing ratios of dark matter to normal matter, eeeeewwwww, now THAT?s ugly. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Tue Aug 10 21:37:21 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2021 14:37:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] dark matter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <227e61e1-e07f-b53e-fc87-bc552aa8b07a@pobox.com> On 2021-8-10 09:44, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > We don't know what dark matter is, can't measure it, but think it makes > up most of the universe.? Do you see a contradiction here? OK, so it's > theoretical (made up to explain something, I reckon). Its mass is measured. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From bronto at pobox.com Tue Aug 10 21:40:18 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2021 14:40:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] dark matter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2021-8-10 14:17, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > I keep wondering if the concept of dark matter is ultimately just > patching over some measurement errors. I've heard of a place where measurement of g-lensing around a pair of colliding galaxies shows that normal matter was slowed by the collision (gas friction) but dark matter was not; that is, the mass whose gravity affects the light of further galaxies is not only *more* than the visible matter, it's in different places. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From pharos at gmail.com Tue Aug 10 22:47:34 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2021 23:47:34 +0100 Subject: [ExI] About 3, 000 Years for a Reply From Intelligent Civilizations Message-ID: A new study discusses the possibility that by the time a message is received by an intelligent species, the civilization that sent it will be long dead. Quotes: Taking their cue from the Copernican Principle, which states that humanity and Earth are representative of the norm (and not an outlier), they calculated that if any transmissions from Earth were heard by an extraterrestrial technological civilization (ETC), it would take about 3000 years to get a reply. This conclusion is supported by previous research (conducted with the help of Dr. Frank Drake himself!) that indicated that within various parameters, a call-and-answer scenario would take longer than the average civilization?s lifespan. In other words, any signals we receive from an ETC (whether they are a response or an attempt to ?start a conversation?) are likely to have been sent by a species that has since become extinct. -------------------- Yes, I have been thinking recently that there are probably only a few advanced civilisations in each galaxy, spread so far apart that contact between civs is very unlikely. BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 10 23:08:27 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2021 18:08:27 -0500 Subject: [ExI] censorship Message-ID: It's all a bunch of sh**t, f***ing A. Now tell me: is that censorship when every single person over the age of 3 knows the missing letters? In Victorian times, there were very prissy about language. 'Pregnant' was a dirty word. So was 'legs' ('lower limbs', you had to say, even if you were talking about a grand piano). I am interested to know what you think: why do we do things like this? Why don't we just use clinical terms for anatomy? Why do we have hundreds of names for sexual body parts? Yeah - I know some theories - I want your input. bill w bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 10 23:35:37 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2021 16:35:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] censorship In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001c01d78e40$6cb01850$461048f0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] censorship >? why do we do things like this? Why don't we just use clinical terms for anatomy? I do. I found out a long time ago how sexy that could be. A long time ago I dated a girl who grew up in Africa (Zimbabwe (she called it Rhodesia.)) Both of her parents were doctors. She learned most of her English from a textbook rather than other kids on the playground. She spoke with perfect grammar always, never used slang of any kind because she didn?t know any. Being a nurse in training, the assignment was to make a list of all slang, profanity, alternate names for body parts, etc. She was stumped. >? Why do we have hundreds of names for sexual body parts? bill w When that girl I described used medical terms, oh that sounded cool. I just loved that. So? I took it up with later relationships, and have always gone that route. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Wed Aug 11 03:58:28 2021 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2021 20:58:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against China attack on Taiwan Message-ID: <20210810205828.Horde.uX9UJv2Omrq9CE7Pqi4MCKD@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Spike: > > John, international rules differ from the rules of human > interaction. An example is the well-known principle that weakness is > provocation. When the value of any nation exceeds the cost to an > attacker to take it, an attacker will take it. I generally agree with John. Weakness can be feigned to provoke casus belli. Sometimes the war machine has a mind of its own. Consider that the war games in question happened almost a year ago. > > That well-known principle has a corollary: If the cost of defending > any ally exceeds the value of that ally, the defending country will > not defend that ally. Your principle does not explain the 20 year long, $3 trillion (including interest to date) quagmire in Afghanistan. The game is being played on many levels and not always rationally it would seem. > The USA sent a clear and powerful message to the world by revealing > the outcome of those war games. The USA will not defend Taiwan. > The cost of defending Taiwan exceeds the value of Taiwan. For what its worth, the GDP of Taiwan is like $700 billion versus $20 billion for Afghanistan, and it has far greater strategic importance in terms of both location and political capital. Consider that it is the successor state of the former government of China in exile. If the world harbors any hope of China becoming an actual democratic republic, then it may lie in Taiwan. > I can see why this is of particular interest to you John, for once > China bites off Taiwan and several of the other eastern nations, it > is only a matter of time before it sets its sights on the > Philippines. China is both patient and ambitious. China is already about 2/3rds of U.S. GDP and growing. If China conquers Taiwan, and the tiger economies, then they will have overnight economic parity. Then it might be time to learn Mandarin, praise Mao, and mind your social credits. Stuart LaForge From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 11 04:16:32 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2021 21:16:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against China attack on Taiwan In-Reply-To: <20210810205828.Horde.uX9UJv2Omrq9CE7Pqi4MCKD@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20210810205828.Horde.uX9UJv2Omrq9CE7Pqi4MCKD@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <000101d78e67$ab5d40b0$0217c210$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat ... >> ...only a matter of time before it sets its sights on the Philippines. China is both patient and ambitious. >....China is already about 2/3rds of U.S. GDP and growing. If China conquers Taiwan, and the tiger economies, then they will have overnight economic parity. Ja to all, with some additional comment: if China takes Taiwan, its productivity will quickly be a fraction of what it was. I don't see that economy flourishing under communism of any form. Its capital will flee before the commies arrive. Bitcoin has given us international mobile currency. Stuart you know where I live, in the Bay Area. We have been watching Chinese and Taiwanese money flowing into this place for so long, we assume the big bucks are always coming from that direction. It is very seldom we see anyone born and raised in the USA coming from outside and buying in around here. I don't recall a single example in years. I did, 32 years ago, but we were the exception to the rule even then. We were people who were willing to sacrifice standard of living in order to get where the technology was being developed. >... Then it might be time to learn Mandarin, praise Mao, and mind your social credits. Stuart LaForge The thought had occurred to me. The internet never forgets. All the disparaging comments I have posted about commies are there forever. This is not to say I have any intentions of stopping however. In my heartfelt opinion, communism is a flawed concept that fails every time it is tried, absolutely regardless of whether it is true communism or some diluted version of it: communism deters innovation and initiative. If the proles are not allowed to have cool stuff for their effort, they won't expend the effort. They will do just enough to get by. Universal truth. spike From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 22:29:49 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 15:29:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against China attack on Taiwan In-Reply-To: <000101d78e67$ab5d40b0$0217c210$@rainier66.com> References: <20210810205828.Horde.uX9UJv2Omrq9CE7Pqi4MCKD@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <000101d78e67$ab5d40b0$0217c210$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike wrote: "The thought had occurred to me. The internet never forgets. All the disparaging comments I have posted about commies are there forever. This is not to say I have any intentions of stopping however." Spike, I hope that if China ever takes over, that I get to share a cell with you and Stuart! I would learn so much! : ) Well, at least when not working a 14 hour shift of breaking rocks, after which we would spend several hours memorizing Socialist-Leninist-Marxist doctrine, with a great deal of encouragement from the instructors... John On Tue, Aug 10, 2021 at 9:18 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of > Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat > ... > >> ...only a matter of time before it sets its sights on the Philippines. > China is both patient and ambitious. > > >....China is already about 2/3rds of U.S. GDP and growing. If China > conquers Taiwan, and the tiger economies, then they will have overnight > economic parity. > > Ja to all, with some additional comment: if China takes Taiwan, its > productivity will quickly be a fraction of what it was. I don't see that > economy flourishing under communism of any form. Its capital will flee > before the commies arrive. Bitcoin has given us international mobile > currency. > > Stuart you know where I live, in the Bay Area. We have been watching > Chinese and Taiwanese money flowing into this place for so long, we assume > the big bucks are always coming from that direction. It is very seldom we > see anyone born and raised in the USA coming from outside and buying in > around here. I don't recall a single example in years. I did, 32 years > ago, but we were the exception to the rule even then. We were people who > were willing to sacrifice standard of living in order to get where the > technology was being developed. > > >... Then it might be time to learn Mandarin, praise Mao, and mind your > social credits. > > Stuart LaForge > > > The thought had occurred to me. The internet never forgets. All the > disparaging comments I have posted about commies are there forever. This > is > not to say I have any intentions of stopping however. In my heartfelt > opinion, communism is a flawed concept that fails every time it is tried, > absolutely regardless of whether it is true communism or some diluted > version of it: communism deters innovation and initiative. If the proles > are not allowed to have cool stuff for their effort, they won't expend the > effort. They will do just enough to get by. Universal truth. > > spike > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 11 13:46:05 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 06:46:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against China attack on Taiwan In-Reply-To: References: <20210810205828.Horde.uX9UJv2Omrq9CE7Pqi4MCKD@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <000101d78e67$ab5d40b0$0217c210$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002e01d78eb7$3bd28250$b37786f0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of John Grigg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against China attack on Taiwan Spike wrote: "The thought had occurred to me. The internet never forgets. All the disparaging comments I have posted about commies are there forever. This is not to say I have any intentions of stopping however." Spike, I hope that if China ever takes over, that I get to share a cell with you and Stuart! I would learn so much! : ) Well, at least when not working a 14 hour shift of breaking rocks, after which we would spend several hours memorizing Socialist-Leninist-Marxist doctrine, with a great deal of encouragement from the instructors... John John I wouldn?t be much fun there. I would be a rotting corpse. Recall the reason why Japan didn?t invade California: there would be a gun behind every bush. I would be one of those behind a gun. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 13:49:22 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 08:49:22 -0500 Subject: [ExI] libertarian city - from Quora Message-ID: Von Ormy, Texas. This Texas Town Went Full Libertarian and Hilarity Ensued The Rise and Fall of the ?Freest Little City in Texas? Von Ormy was supposed to be a Libertarian paradise. No taxes and no government regulation meant that businesses would flock to the city bringing jobs and money, right? Ha ha ha ha ha no. The town?s government is essentially nonfunctional. It?s run from a double-wide trailer (they don?t have enough money to pay the rent on City Hall). You?ll find no Socialism here, no siree. The town?s Socialist fire department was disbanded because there?s not enough money to pay firefighters. The town?s Socialist police force was disbanded; law enforcement is now done by county sheriffs. The town decided to finance a sewer system by voluntary donations?taxation is theft at the barrel of a gun, if you give people the freedom to choose what to pay for economies run so much more efficiently, right? BWAH ha ha ha ha! No, there?s no sewer system, no water treatment, none of that Socialist nonsense. Dysfunctional government, no jobs, no business, no industry, no fire department, no infrastructure, no police?it is precisely what you get when you put Libertarian ideology into practice. You?ll love it there. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Aug 12 05:16:37 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 22:16:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against China attack on Taiwan In-Reply-To: <002e01d78eb7$3bd28250$b37786f0$@rainier66.com> References: <20210810205828.Horde.uX9UJv2Omrq9CE7Pqi4MCKD@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <000101d78e67$ab5d40b0$0217c210$@rainier66.com> <002e01d78eb7$3bd28250$b37786f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike wrote: "John I wouldn?t be much fun there. I would be a rotting corpse. Recall the reason why Japan didn?t invade California: there would be a gun behind every bush. I would be one of those behind a gun." I appreciate your fighting spirit! On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 6:48 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *John Grigg via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against > China attack on Taiwan > > > > Spike wrote: > > "The thought had occurred to me. The internet never forgets. All the > disparaging comments I have posted about commies are there forever. This > is > not to say I have any intentions of stopping however." > > > > Spike, I hope that if China ever takes over, that I get to share a cell > with you and Stuart! I would learn so much! : ) Well, at least when not > working a 14 hour shift of breaking rocks, after which we would spend > several hours memorizing Socialist-Leninist-Marxist doctrine, with a great > deal of encouragement from the instructors... > > > > John > > > > > > John I wouldn?t be much fun there. I would be a rotting corpse. Recall > the reason why Japan didn?t invade California: there would be a gun behind > every bush. I would be one of those behind a gun. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 11 17:59:53 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 10:59:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarian city - from Quora In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003e01d78eda$b070b4b0$11521e10$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] libertarian city - from Quora Von Ormy, Texas. This Texas Town Went Full Libertarian and Hilarity Ensued The Rise and Fall of the ?Freest Little City in Texas? bill w The most common way to argue against libertarianism is to conflate it with anarchy. If they had gone full Libertarian, they would still have a fire department, a police department, a legal system, a water and sewer system, they would still have taxes to pay for it. Anarchy doesn?t have any of these things. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 18:12:25 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 14:12:25 -0400 Subject: [ExI] libertarian city - from Quora In-Reply-To: <003e01d78eda$b070b4b0$11521e10$@rainier66.com> References: <003e01d78eda$b070b4b0$11521e10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 2:03 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > The most common way to argue against libertarianism is to conflate it with > anarchy. > > > > If they had gone full Libertarian, they would still have a fire > department, a police department, a legal system, a water and sewer system, > they would still have taxes to pay for it. Anarchy doesn?t have any of > these things. > No, the problem wasn't that they didn't go full Libertarian, it's that they went libertarian without a workable plan and a commitment to follow it. You can't tear down the existing structure without a plan and resources to build a new one. Anarchies can have fire departments, police departments, legal systems, utilities, and taxes: those aren't magical features of libertarianism that anarchy lacks. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 20:01:40 2021 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 16:01:40 -0400 Subject: [ExI] libertarian city - from Quora In-Reply-To: <003e01d78eda$b070b4b0$11521e10$@rainier66.com> References: <003e01d78eda$b070b4b0$11521e10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <948A48F9-7C99-447D-AE23-ED4F2E0ED804@gmail.com> > still have taxes Uh, that doesn't sound very libertarian. SR Ballard > On Aug 11, 2021, at 2:02 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > > > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > > Subject: [ExI] libertarian city - from Quora > > Von Ormy, Texas. > > This Texas Town Went Full Libertarian and Hilarity Ensued > > The Rise and Fall of the ?Freest Little City in Texas? > > bill w > > > The most common way to argue against libertarianism is to conflate it with anarchy. > > If they had gone full Libertarian, they would still have a fire department, a police department, a legal system, a water and sewer system, they would still have taxes to pay for it. Anarchy doesn?t have any of these things. > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 11 20:10:43 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 13:10:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarian city - from Quora In-Reply-To: <948A48F9-7C99-447D-AE23-ED4F2E0ED804@gmail.com> References: <003e01d78eda$b070b4b0$11521e10$@rainier66.com> <948A48F9-7C99-447D-AE23-ED4F2E0ED804@gmail.com> Message-ID: <006c01d78eec$f7315370$e593fa50$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2021 1:02 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: SR Ballard Subject: Re: [ExI] libertarian city - from Quora > still have taxes Uh, that doesn't sound very libertarian. SR Ballard It is. Without taxes there can be no infrastructure and no law enforcement. Without law enforcement, there is no law. This is anarchy, not libertarianism. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 20:43:19 2021 From: henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com (Henrik Ohrstrom) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 22:43:19 +0200 Subject: [ExI] libertarian city - from Quora In-Reply-To: <006c01d78eec$f7315370$e593fa50$@rainier66.com> References: <003e01d78eda$b070b4b0$11521e10$@rainier66.com> <948A48F9-7C99-447D-AE23-ED4F2E0ED804@gmail.com> <006c01d78eec$f7315370$e593fa50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I would say it neither anarchy nor liberalism. It is just plain incompetence. True hardcore anarcoliberalism complete with privately produced law are so hard that no one has come close to a working version. South Sudan is probably the closest semi working version so far. /Henrik Den ons 11 aug. 2021 22:13spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> skrev: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *SR Ballard via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 11, 2021 1:02 PM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* SR Ballard > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] libertarian city - from Quora > > > > > still have taxes > > > > Uh, that doesn't sound very libertarian. > > SR Ballard > > > > > > > > It is. Without taxes there can be no infrastructure and no law > enforcement. Without law enforcement, there is no law. This is anarchy, > not libertarianism. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 20:43:52 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 16:43:52 -0400 Subject: [ExI] libertarian city - from Quora In-Reply-To: <948A48F9-7C99-447D-AE23-ED4F2E0ED804@gmail.com> References: <003e01d78eda$b070b4b0$11521e10$@rainier66.com> <948A48F9-7C99-447D-AE23-ED4F2E0ED804@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 4:04 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > still have taxes > > Uh, that doesn't sound very libertarian. > Libertarians aren't free to agree to taxes? -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 21:19:27 2021 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 17:19:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] libertarian city - from Quora In-Reply-To: <006c01d78eec$f7315370$e593fa50$@rainier66.com> References: <006c01d78eec$f7315370$e593fa50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <904D3839-C7E7-4911-BDB0-F3F2194949F7@gmail.com> Taxation is theft tho? That?s what all the IRL libertarians tell me. They all reject the idea of the social contract. SR Ballard > On Aug 11, 2021, at 4:12 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > > > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat > Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2021 1:02 PM > To: ExI chat list > Cc: SR Ballard > Subject: Re: [ExI] libertarian city - from Quora > > > still have taxes > > Uh, that doesn't sound very libertarian. > > SR Ballard > > > > > It is. Without taxes there can be no infrastructure and no law enforcement. Without law enforcement, there is no law. This is anarchy, not libertarianism. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 21:21:53 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 14:21:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarian city - from Quora In-Reply-To: References: <003e01d78eda$b070b4b0$11521e10$@rainier66.com> <948A48F9-7C99-447D-AE23-ED4F2E0ED804@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 1:51 PM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 4:04 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> > still have taxes >> >> Uh, that doesn't sound very libertarian. >> > > Libertarians aren't free to agree to taxes? > Taxes tend to be agreed on by some but not all, yet all - even those who did not agree - must pay. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 21:27:55 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2021 07:27:55 +1000 Subject: [ExI] libertarian city - from Quora In-Reply-To: <006c01d78eec$f7315370$e593fa50$@rainier66.com> References: <003e01d78eda$b070b4b0$11521e10$@rainier66.com> <948A48F9-7C99-447D-AE23-ED4F2E0ED804@gmail.com> <006c01d78eec$f7315370$e593fa50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 at 06:11, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *SR Ballard via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 11, 2021 1:02 PM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* SR Ballard > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] libertarian city - from Quora > > > > > still have taxes > > > > Uh, that doesn't sound very libertarian. > > SR Ballard > > > > > > > > It is. Without taxes there can be no infrastructure and no law > enforcement. Without law enforcement, there is no law. This is anarchy, > not libertarianism. > Under anarchism the people run the services themselves rather than have them imposed from above. It might not work, but it is not the intention that there be disorder and no public services. This is a common misconception. A communist utopia is like a version of anarchism but the communists disagreed with the anarchists about the path to get there. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 11 21:37:07 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 14:37:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarian city - from Quora In-Reply-To: <904D3839-C7E7-4911-BDB0-F3F2194949F7@gmail.com> References: <006c01d78eec$f7315370$e593fa50$@rainier66.com> <904D3839-C7E7-4911-BDB0-F3F2194949F7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003001d78ef9$09793be0$1c6bb3a0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] libertarian city - from Quora Taxation is theft tho? That?s what all the IRL libertarians tell me. They all reject the idea of the social contract. SR Ballard I am an IRL libertarian. I am not telling you that. spike On Aug 11, 2021, at 4:12 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: ? From: extropy-chat > On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2021 1:02 PM To: ExI chat list > Cc: SR Ballard > Subject: Re: [ExI] libertarian city - from Quora > still have taxes Uh, that doesn't sound very libertarian. SR Ballard It is. Without taxes there can be no infrastructure and no law enforcement. Without law enforcement, there is no law. This is anarchy, not libertarianism. spike _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 21:55:21 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 14:55:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarian city - from Quora In-Reply-To: References: <003e01d78eda$b070b4b0$11521e10$@rainier66.com> <948A48F9-7C99-447D-AE23-ED4F2E0ED804@gmail.com> <006c01d78eec$f7315370$e593fa50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 2:33 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Under anarchism the people run the services themselves rather than have > them imposed from above. > How is that even possible? Unless literally everyone is involved in all the services, which is impossible even for a few dozen people, the services will by definition be "imposed" on anyone not running them, if they are to work at all. Firefighting: if your house is next to mine and on fire, then my house is at danger of catching fire. If I'm a firefighter and you're not, then I "impose" my service on you to save my house. (Or I don't, and let your house burn to the ground, thus rendering the firefighting service ineffective.) Roads: if I build a road from my house to town, it goes by your house, and you are not otherwise involved, I have "imposed" my road upon you. Health: pandemics don't care if you've opted in or not. If you're infected and you're my neighbor, you need to be treated before I get sick - and vice versa. Police: if you have opted not to subscribe to the protection of the law, people are free to impose force upon you, and will do so (if they think the police really won't protect you) regardless of your alleged rights. It doesn't matter how many guns you have. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 22:17:05 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2021 08:17:05 +1000 Subject: [ExI] libertarian city - from Quora In-Reply-To: References: <003e01d78eda$b070b4b0$11521e10$@rainier66.com> <948A48F9-7C99-447D-AE23-ED4F2E0ED804@gmail.com> <006c01d78eec$f7315370$e593fa50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 at 07:57, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 2:33 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Under anarchism the people run the services themselves rather than have >> them imposed from above. >> > > How is that even possible? Unless literally everyone is involved in all > the services, which is impossible even for a few dozen people, the services > will by definition be "imposed" on anyone not running them, if they are to > work at all. > > Firefighting: if your house is next to mine and on fire, then my house is > at danger of catching fire. If I'm a firefighter and you're not, then I > "impose" my service on you to save my house. (Or I don't, and let your > house burn to the ground, thus rendering the firefighting service > ineffective.) > > Roads: if I build a road from my house to town, it goes by your house, and > you are not otherwise involved, I have "imposed" my road upon you. > > Health: pandemics don't care if you've opted in or not. If you're > infected and you're my neighbor, you need to be treated before I get sick - > and vice versa. > > Police: if you have opted not to subscribe to the protection of the law, > people are free to impose force upon you, and will do so (if they think the > police really won't protect you) regardless of your alleged rights. It > doesn't matter how many guns you have. > The idea is that collectives run things rather than those specially endowed with capital or power. Those who don?t want to participate or follow the rules are excluded from society. The point is that anarchism does not mean disorder, it means an elimination of hierarchical power structures. But maybe it doesn?t work and hierarchies run things better. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 22:21:28 2021 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 18:21:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] libertarian city - from Quora In-Reply-To: <003001d78ef9$09793be0$1c6bb3a0$@rainier66.com> References: <003001d78ef9$09793be0$1c6bb3a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <16F62B7B-014C-4BFC-B66E-7773406DE9B7@gmail.com> Sorry spike, you?re not IRL til I meet you IRL. On the internet no one knows you?re a cat. SR Ballard > On Aug 11, 2021, at 5:38 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > > > ?> On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] libertarian city - from Quora > > Taxation is theft tho? That?s what all the IRL libertarians tell me. They all reject the idea of the social contract. > > SR Ballard > > > > I am an IRL libertarian. I am not telling you that. > > spike > > > On Aug 11, 2021, at 4:12 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > > > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat > Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2021 1:02 PM > To: ExI chat list > Cc: SR Ballard > Subject: Re: [ExI] libertarian city - from Quora > > > still have taxes > > Uh, that doesn't sound very libertarian. > > SR Ballard > > > > > > It is. Without taxes there can be no infrastructure and no law enforcement. Without law enforcement, there is no law. This is anarchy, not libertarianism. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 22:25:59 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 15:25:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarian city - from Quora In-Reply-To: References: <003e01d78eda$b070b4b0$11521e10$@rainier66.com> <948A48F9-7C99-447D-AE23-ED4F2E0ED804@gmail.com> <006c01d78eec$f7315370$e593fa50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 3:19 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 at 07:57, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 2:33 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Under anarchism the people run the services themselves rather than have >>> them imposed from above. >>> >> >> How is that even possible? Unless literally everyone is involved in all >> the services, which is impossible even for a few dozen people, the services >> will by definition be "imposed" on anyone not running them, if they are to >> work at all. >> >> Firefighting: if your house is next to mine and on fire, then my house is >> at danger of catching fire. If I'm a firefighter and you're not, then I >> "impose" my service on you to save my house. (Or I don't, and let your >> house burn to the ground, thus rendering the firefighting service >> ineffective.) >> >> Roads: if I build a road from my house to town, it goes by your house, >> and you are not otherwise involved, I have "imposed" my road upon you. >> >> Health: pandemics don't care if you've opted in or not. If you're >> infected and you're my neighbor, you need to be treated before I get sick - >> and vice versa. >> >> Police: if you have opted not to subscribe to the protection of the law, >> people are free to impose force upon you, and will do so (if they think the >> police really won't protect you) regardless of your alleged rights. It >> doesn't matter how many guns you have. >> > > The idea is that collectives run things rather than those specially > endowed with capital or power. Those who don?t want to participate or > follow the rules are excluded from society. The point is that anarchism > does not mean disorder, it means an elimination of hierarchical power > structures. But maybe it doesn?t work and hierarchies run things better. > It doesn't work at all. All four of those examples are cases where you can not have both functioning institutions/infrastructure and the presence of anyone who is excluded from society. In each case, you would have to physically remove the excluded person (and thus apply force without their consent) or kill them (and thus apply force without their consent) in order for those who opted into the institution/infrastructure to be able to use them. In other words, the mere presence of one who has opted out is essentially an application of force against those who opted in. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 22:52:59 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 17:52:59 -0500 Subject: [ExI] libertarian city - from Quora In-Reply-To: References: <003e01d78eda$b070b4b0$11521e10$@rainier66.com> <948A48F9-7C99-447D-AE23-ED4F2E0ED804@gmail.com> <006c01d78eec$f7315370$e593fa50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The idea is that collectives run things rather than those specially endowed with capital or power. Those who don?t want to participate or follow the rules are excluded from society. The point is that anarchism does not mean disorder, it means an elimination of hierarchical power structures. But maybe it doesn?t work and hierarchies run things better. > -- Stathis Papaioannou Collectives run things? Then they have power and the money to run them. Go to them with complaints and you are told they are running things and to get lost. Are people voted into the collectives? Where does the money come from? Sure sounds like taxes and a hierarchy to me. You can't get rid of hierarchies. Somebody has to have sayso in running anything. Surely you are not one of those people who would let children vote in family discussions. bill w On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 5:19 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 at 07:57, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 2:33 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Under anarchism the people run the services themselves rather than have >>> them imposed from above. >>> >> >> How is that even possible? Unless literally everyone is involved in all >> the services, which is impossible even for a few dozen people, the services >> will by definition be "imposed" on anyone not running them, if they are to >> work at all. >> >> Firefighting: if your house is next to mine and on fire, then my house is >> at danger of catching fire. If I'm a firefighter and you're not, then I >> "impose" my service on you to save my house. (Or I don't, and let your >> house burn to the ground, thus rendering the firefighting service >> ineffective.) >> >> Roads: if I build a road from my house to town, it goes by your house, >> and you are not otherwise involved, I have "imposed" my road upon you. >> >> Health: pandemics don't care if you've opted in or not. If you're >> infected and you're my neighbor, you need to be treated before I get sick - >> and vice versa. >> >> Police: if you have opted not to subscribe to the protection of the law, >> people are free to impose force upon you, and will do so (if they think the >> police really won't protect you) regardless of your alleged rights. It >> doesn't matter how many guns you have. >> > > The idea is that collectives run things rather than those specially > endowed with capital or power. Those who don?t want to participate or > follow the rules are excluded from society. The point is that anarchism > does not mean disorder, it means an elimination of hierarchical power > structures. But maybe it doesn?t work and hierarchies run things better. > >> -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 11 22:56:22 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 15:56:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarian city - from Quora In-Reply-To: <16F62B7B-014C-4BFC-B66E-7773406DE9B7@gmail.com> References: <003001d78ef9$09793be0$1c6bb3a0$@rainier66.com> <16F62B7B-014C-4BFC-B66E-7773406DE9B7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002701d78f04$1bc4ea50$534ebef0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] libertarian city - from Quora Sorry spike, you?re not IRL til I meet you IRL. On the internet no one knows you?re a cat. SR Ballard Oh, ja, there is that. But it is a good thing. Perhaps you saw the Bugs Bunny episode Hot Cross Bunny where that mad scientist switches the brains of Bugs and a chicken. That was made in 1948, back in the days when society still had a collective sense of humor. It made fun of Nazis in a vaguely subtle way, while simultaneously providing the clever turnabout for which Bugs is well-known and giving us the classic phrase ?I don?t wanna be no chicken!? If you saw Hot Cross Bunny (apologies to the younger generation among us (which is nearly everyone here except Billw and me (for missing all the politically incorrect fun))) you know where I got the inspiration to build my own Hot Cross Bunny machine. A stray cat was the only easily available lifeform. After the switch, the cat, in my flesh, bolted in terror and hasn?t been seen since. So here am I, a cat. However, this is not such a bad thing. I am a really cool cat. Libertarianism, like any political stance including moderates, works best in moderation. spike On Aug 11, 2021, at 5:38 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: ? ?> On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] libertarian city - from Quora Taxation is theft tho? That?s what all the IRL libertarians tell me. They all reject the idea of the social contract. SR Ballard I am an IRL libertarian. I am not telling you that. spike On Aug 11, 2021, at 4:12 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: ? From: extropy-chat > On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2021 1:02 PM To: ExI chat list > Cc: SR Ballard > Subject: Re: [ExI] libertarian city - from Quora > still have taxes Uh, that doesn't sound very libertarian. SR Ballard It is. Without taxes there can be no infrastructure and no law enforcement. Without law enforcement, there is no law. This is anarchy, not libertarianism. spike _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Wed Aug 11 23:10:22 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 16:10:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarian city - from Quora In-Reply-To: <904D3839-C7E7-4911-BDB0-F3F2194949F7@gmail.com> References: <006c01d78eec$f7315370$e593fa50$@rainier66.com> <904D3839-C7E7-4911-BDB0-F3F2194949F7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3277ea04-adfe-0dc1-d785-6f5dcc4538c8@pobox.com> Hi, I heard this was the no-politics list? On 2021-8-11 14:19, SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: > Taxation is theft tho? That?s what all the IRL libertarians tell me. > They all reject the idea of the social contract. I embrace a social contract that says "I'll avoid harming you, your family or your property, if you'll do the same for me." I reject a purported social contract that says "One of the parties hereto can change the terms at will (and you're not that one)." Seems to me, though, that the kind of contract most fit for providing fire prevention and the like is neither of these. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From stathisp at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 23:12:01 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2021 09:12:01 +1000 Subject: [ExI] libertarian city - from Quora In-Reply-To: References: <003e01d78eda$b070b4b0$11521e10$@rainier66.com> <948A48F9-7C99-447D-AE23-ED4F2E0ED804@gmail.com> <006c01d78eec$f7315370$e593fa50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 at 08:31, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 3:19 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 at 07:57, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 2:33 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Under anarchism the people run the services themselves rather than have >>>> them imposed from above. >>>> >>> >>> How is that even possible? Unless literally everyone is involved in all >>> the services, which is impossible even for a few dozen people, the services >>> will by definition be "imposed" on anyone not running them, if they are to >>> work at all. >>> >>> Firefighting: if your house is next to mine and on fire, then my house >>> is at danger of catching fire. If I'm a firefighter and you're not, then I >>> "impose" my service on you to save my house. (Or I don't, and let your >>> house burn to the ground, thus rendering the firefighting service >>> ineffective.) >>> >>> Roads: if I build a road from my house to town, it goes by your house, >>> and you are not otherwise involved, I have "imposed" my road upon you. >>> >>> Health: pandemics don't care if you've opted in or not. If you're >>> infected and you're my neighbor, you need to be treated before I get sick - >>> and vice versa. >>> >>> Police: if you have opted not to subscribe to the protection of the law, >>> people are free to impose force upon you, and will do so (if they think the >>> police really won't protect you) regardless of your alleged rights. It >>> doesn't matter how many guns you have. >>> >> >> The idea is that collectives run things rather than those specially >> endowed with capital or power. Those who don?t want to participate or >> follow the rules are excluded from society. The point is that anarchism >> does not mean disorder, it means an elimination of hierarchical power >> structures. But maybe it doesn?t work and hierarchies run things better. >> > > It doesn't work at all. All four of those examples are cases where you > can not have both functioning institutions/infrastructure and the presence > of anyone who is excluded from society. In each case, you would have to > physically remove the excluded person (and thus apply force without their > consent) or kill them (and thus apply force without their consent) in order > for those who opted into the institution/infrastructure to be able to use > them. In other words, the mere presence of one who has opted out is > essentially an application of force against those who opted in. > Yes, you would have to apply force without consent, because a society couldn?t work otherwise. You couldn?t have basic things such as cars and roads if some people decided that they don?t have to stop at a red light. But the force would not be applied by police at the request of a king, president or wealthy person. The difference is in who makes the rules and, as a general principle, that the rules will the minimum required. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Wed Aug 11 23:12:28 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 16:12:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarian city - from Quora In-Reply-To: <002701d78f04$1bc4ea50$534ebef0$@rainier66.com> References: <003001d78ef9$09793be0$1c6bb3a0$@rainier66.com> <16F62B7B-014C-4BFC-B66E-7773406DE9B7@gmail.com> <002701d78f04$1bc4ea50$534ebef0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <53882e57-23b0-a55e-7bee-862953c4ed6d@pobox.com> On 2021-8-11 15:56, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > Libertarianism, like any political stance including moderates, > works best in moderation. Libertarianism seeks to expand the "grey area" between the mandatory and the forbidden. What could be more moderate than that? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 23:22:12 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 18:22:12 -0500 Subject: [ExI] libertarian city - from Quora In-Reply-To: <002701d78f04$1bc4ea50$534ebef0$@rainier66.com> References: <003001d78ef9$09793be0$1c6bb3a0$@rainier66.com> <16F62B7B-014C-4BFC-B66E-7773406DE9B7@gmail.com> <002701d78f04$1bc4ea50$534ebef0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Libertarianism, like any political stance including moderates, works best in moderation. spike *Well said - nobody at any time of life is totally free of everything (including one's body, which has a mind of its own - and, of course, your mind has a mind of its own too). If we all followed our id it would be far worse than anarchy. Down deep inside is a terrible, totally selfish killing machine, ready to take anything it wants when it wants it, which is when it becomes aware of the impulse. **This is the basis of horror movies and a lot more. **In most people the impulses leak out a little at a time, like letting your finger go just a tad to release air from a balloon. (Your finger is your superego and ego.)* *In some psychotics, what they are mostly afraid of is their id just letting go and running wild. They think this because they have lost some control over what is in their mind, like hallucinations, and they fear a lot more coming out. bill w * On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 6:02 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *SR Ballard via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] libertarian city - from Quora > > > > Sorry spike, you?re not IRL til I meet you IRL. On the internet no one > knows you?re a cat. > > SR Ballard > > > > > > Oh, ja, there is that. But it is a good thing. Perhaps you saw the Bugs > Bunny episode Hot Cross Bunny where that mad scientist switches the brains > of Bugs and a chicken. That was made in 1948, back in the days when > society still had a collective sense of humor. It made fun of Nazis in a > vaguely subtle way, while simultaneously providing the clever turnabout for > which Bugs is well-known and giving us the classic phrase ?I don?t wanna be > no chicken!? > > > > If you saw Hot Cross Bunny (apologies to the younger generation among us > (which is nearly everyone here except Billw and me (for missing all the > politically incorrect fun))) you know where I got the inspiration to build > my own Hot Cross Bunny machine. A stray cat was the only easily available > lifeform. After the switch, the cat, in my flesh, bolted in terror and > hasn?t been seen since. So here am I, a cat. > > > > However, this is not such a bad thing. I am a really cool cat. > > > > Libertarianism, like any political stance including moderates, works best > in moderation. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 11, 2021, at 5:38 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ? > > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *SR Ballard via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] libertarian city - from Quora > > > > Taxation is theft tho? That?s what all the IRL libertarians tell me. They > all reject the idea of the social contract. > > SR Ballard > > > > > > > > I am an IRL libertarian. I am not telling you that. > > > > spike > > > > > On Aug 11, 2021, at 4:12 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ? > > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *SR Ballard via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 11, 2021 1:02 PM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* SR Ballard > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] libertarian city - from Quora > > > > > still have taxes > > > > Uh, that doesn't sound very libertarian. > > SR Ballard > > > > > > > > > > It is. Without taxes there can be no infrastructure and no law > enforcement. Without law enforcement, there is no law. This is anarchy, > not libertarianism. > > > > spike > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Wed Aug 11 23:24:44 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 16:24:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarian city - from Quora In-Reply-To: References: <003e01d78eda$b070b4b0$11521e10$@rainier66.com> <948A48F9-7C99-447D-AE23-ED4F2E0ED804@gmail.com> <006c01d78eec$f7315370$e593fa50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <8417dcff-41b6-1084-f6a2-20ae6e8b5b70@pobox.com> On 2021-8-11 14:55, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > Firefighting: if your house is next to mine and on fire, then my house > is at danger of catching fire.? If I'm a firefighter and you're not, > then I "impose" my service on you to save my house.? (Or I don't, and > let your house burn to the ground, thus rendering the firefighting > service ineffective.) > > Roads: if I build a road from my house to town, it goes by your house, > and you are not otherwise involved, I have "imposed" my road upon you. > > Health: pandemics don't care if you've opted in or not.? If you're > infected and you're my neighbor, you need to be treated before I get > sick - and vice versa. In a world that has had time to learn how to make statelessness work, I would not expect any cluster of buildings to exist without having negotiated easements and the like. Adapting a preexisting city to new statelessness will have inevitable challenges! Somebody must have written on possible solutions .. > Police: if you have opted not to subscribe to the protection of the law, > people are free to impose force upon you, and will do so (if they think > the police really won't protect you) regardless of your alleged rights. > It doesn't matter how many guns you have. Your other three examples have obvious externality problems, but where's the externality in this one? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 23:25:30 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 18:25:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] libertarian city - from Quora In-Reply-To: References: <003e01d78eda$b070b4b0$11521e10$@rainier66.com> <948A48F9-7C99-447D-AE23-ED4F2E0ED804@gmail.com> <006c01d78eec$f7315370$e593fa50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: But the force would not be applied by police at the request of a king, president or wealthy person. The difference is in who makes the rules and, as a general principle, that the rules will the minimum required. > -- Stathis Papaioannou *And how is this different from what we have now? People elected by the voters are in charge. bill w* On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 6:18 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 at 08:31, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 3:19 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 at 07:57, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 2:33 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Under anarchism the people run the services themselves rather than >>>>> have them imposed from above. >>>>> >>>> >>>> How is that even possible? Unless literally everyone is involved in >>>> all the services, which is impossible even for a few dozen people, the >>>> services will by definition be "imposed" on anyone not running them, if >>>> they are to work at all. >>>> >>>> Firefighting: if your house is next to mine and on fire, then my house >>>> is at danger of catching fire. If I'm a firefighter and you're not, then I >>>> "impose" my service on you to save my house. (Or I don't, and let your >>>> house burn to the ground, thus rendering the firefighting service >>>> ineffective.) >>>> >>>> Roads: if I build a road from my house to town, it goes by your house, >>>> and you are not otherwise involved, I have "imposed" my road upon you. >>>> >>>> Health: pandemics don't care if you've opted in or not. If you're >>>> infected and you're my neighbor, you need to be treated before I get sick - >>>> and vice versa. >>>> >>>> Police: if you have opted not to subscribe to the protection of the >>>> law, people are free to impose force upon you, and will do so (if they >>>> think the police really won't protect you) regardless of your alleged >>>> rights. It doesn't matter how many guns you have. >>>> >>> >>> The idea is that collectives run things rather than those specially >>> endowed with capital or power. Those who don?t want to participate or >>> follow the rules are excluded from society. The point is that anarchism >>> does not mean disorder, it means an elimination of hierarchical power >>> structures. But maybe it doesn?t work and hierarchies run things better. >>> >> >> It doesn't work at all. All four of those examples are cases where you >> can not have both functioning institutions/infrastructure and the presence >> of anyone who is excluded from society. In each case, you would have to >> physically remove the excluded person (and thus apply force without their >> consent) or kill them (and thus apply force without their consent) in order >> for those who opted into the institution/infrastructure to be able to use >> them. In other words, the mere presence of one who has opted out is >> essentially an application of force against those who opted in. >> > > Yes, you would have to apply force without consent, because a society > couldn?t work otherwise. You couldn?t have basic things such as cars and > roads if some people decided that they don?t have to stop at a red light. > But the force would not be applied by police at the request of a king, > president or wealthy person. The difference is in who makes the rules and, > as a general principle, that the rules will the minimum required. > >> -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Wed Aug 11 23:34:04 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 16:34:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarian city - from Quora In-Reply-To: References: <003e01d78eda$b070b4b0$11521e10$@rainier66.com> <948A48F9-7C99-447D-AE23-ED4F2E0ED804@gmail.com> <006c01d78eec$f7315370$e593fa50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On 2021-8-11 15:17, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat wrote: > The idea is that collectives run things rather than those specially > endowed with capital or power. Those who don?t want to participate or > follow the rules are excluded from society. The point is that anarchism > does not mean disorder, it means an elimination of hierarchical power > structures. But maybe it doesn?t work and hierarchies run things better. "Socialism will never succeed: it takes up too many evenings." (attributed to Oscar Wilde) If you replace an existing elite with The Collective, never mind the question of defining the proper boundaries of The Collective, pretty soon power will concentrate in those who endure the innumerable meetings. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From bronto at pobox.com Wed Aug 11 23:46:35 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 16:46:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarian city - from Quora In-Reply-To: References: <003001d78ef9$09793be0$1c6bb3a0$@rainier66.com> <16F62B7B-014C-4BFC-B66E-7773406DE9B7@gmail.com> <002701d78f04$1bc4ea50$534ebef0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <18ebc659-3f2a-9ef3-1791-bc487e6528c0@pobox.com> On 2021-8-11 16:22, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > [...] If we all followed our id it would be far worse than anarchy. > Down deep inside is a terrible, totally selfish killing machine, > ready to take anything it wants when it wants it, which is when it > becomes aware of the impulse. This is the basis of horror movies and > a lot more. [...] I suspect (without a good articulable reason) that the people least wrong in believing that they would turn violent if not for Authority are those most impoverished and otherwise damaged by authoritarianism. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From atymes at gmail.com Thu Aug 12 00:04:19 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 17:04:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarian city - from Quora In-Reply-To: <8417dcff-41b6-1084-f6a2-20ae6e8b5b70@pobox.com> References: <003e01d78eda$b070b4b0$11521e10$@rainier66.com> <948A48F9-7C99-447D-AE23-ED4F2E0ED804@gmail.com> <006c01d78eec$f7315370$e593fa50$@rainier66.com> <8417dcff-41b6-1084-f6a2-20ae6e8b5b70@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 4:34 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > In a world that has had time to learn how to make statelessness work, I > would not expect any cluster of buildings to exist without having > negotiated easements and the like. Adapting a preexisting city to new > statelessness will have inevitable challenges! Somebody must have > written on possible solutions .. > I'm not sure there are practical solutions, for two reasons: 1) There are substantial benefits to clustering buildings - see "urbanization". These known, proven, and thoroughly documented solutions are put up against the hypothetical benefits of declustering buildings - and even they were true, the latter pale in comparison. 2) Declustering involves moving the people in the removed buildings. Said people believe their current buildings are their homes - so even if you are demonstrably building new homes for them, you are removing most people from their current homes, which most people strongly object to on principle. (Also: who decides which buildings - and thus, which people - get to stay?) > On 2021-8-11 14:55, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > Police: if you have opted not to subscribe to the protection of the law, > > people are free to impose force upon you, and will do so (if they think > > the police really won't protect you) regardless of your alleged rights. > > It doesn't matter how many guns you have. > > Your other three examples have obvious externality problems, but where's > the externality in this one? > This one is not so much externality, but rather just pointing out that the choices are to submit to "force" (of the police) or to submit to "force" (of ill-doers), and that there is no choice where one does not face the potential of having to submit to external force. Police-style force is, on average, less intense (despite the extremes) and easier to deflect (police are far more often willing to stand down and talk than ill-doers who have already committed to using force). Many people falsely believe that having a bunch of guns around will stave off ill-doers. History has shown, time and again, that this is not the case. The fantasized-about situations fail to account for practical reality - most famously: * malfunctioning friend-or-foe detection, resulting in shooting a friend or family member, * insufficient storage security, such that an innocent incompetent (such as an untrained kid) obtains and does harm with one of the firearms, * insufficient storage security, such that a competent malicious person who knows the firearms are there obtains and does harm with one of the firearms, or * the mere presence of a firearm (holstered or brandished) resulted in unnecessary escalation resulting in harm (especially lethal). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 12 00:19:40 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 19:19:40 -0500 Subject: [ExI] libertarian city - from Quora In-Reply-To: References: <003e01d78eda$b070b4b0$11521e10$@rainier66.com> <948A48F9-7C99-447D-AE23-ED4F2E0ED804@gmail.com> <006c01d78eec$f7315370$e593fa50$@rainier66.com> <8417dcff-41b6-1084-f6a2-20ae6e8b5b70@pobox.com> Message-ID: Adrian, this is a most excellent post. Blacks that I know and have known often, maybe mostly carry a gun, a razor, a box cutter, or some other weapon. What if all they had were their fists? A lot of murders would not occur. But the motive is mostly fear, not aggression, so getting them to stop carrying is a no-go. Banning, confiscation, etc. will never work even if you could do it. Now I see where you can build a gun from a kit (Spike may tell us more here) bill w On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 7:06 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 4:34 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> In a world that has had time to learn how to make statelessness work, I >> would not expect any cluster of buildings to exist without having >> negotiated easements and the like. Adapting a preexisting city to new >> statelessness will have inevitable challenges! Somebody must have >> written on possible solutions .. >> > > I'm not sure there are practical solutions, for two reasons: > > 1) There are substantial benefits to clustering buildings - see > "urbanization". These known, proven, and thoroughly documented solutions > are put up against the hypothetical benefits of declustering buildings - > and even they were true, the latter pale in comparison. > > 2) Declustering involves moving the people in the removed buildings. Said > people believe their current buildings are their homes - so even if you are > demonstrably building new homes for them, you are removing most people from > their current homes, which most people strongly object to on principle. > (Also: who decides which buildings - and thus, which people - get to stay?) > > >> On 2021-8-11 14:55, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: >> > Police: if you have opted not to subscribe to the protection of the >> law, >> > people are free to impose force upon you, and will do so (if they think >> > the police really won't protect you) regardless of your alleged >> rights. >> > It doesn't matter how many guns you have. >> >> Your other three examples have obvious externality problems, but where's >> the externality in this one? >> > > This one is not so much externality, but rather just pointing out that the > choices are to submit to "force" (of the police) or to submit to "force" > (of ill-doers), and that there is no choice where one does not face the > potential of having to submit to external force. Police-style force is, on > average, less intense (despite the extremes) and easier to deflect (police > are far more often willing to stand down and talk than ill-doers who have > already committed to using force). > > Many people falsely believe that having a bunch of guns around will stave > off ill-doers. History has shown, time and again, that this is not the > case. The fantasized-about situations fail to account for practical > reality - most famously: > * malfunctioning friend-or-foe detection, resulting in shooting a friend > or family member, > * insufficient storage security, such that an innocent incompetent (such > as an untrained kid) obtains and does harm with one of the firearms, > * insufficient storage security, such that a competent malicious person > who knows the firearms are there obtains and does harm with one of the > firearms, or > * the mere presence of a firearm (holstered or brandished) resulted in > unnecessary escalation resulting in harm (especially lethal). > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mlatorra at gmail.com Thu Aug 12 00:35:50 2021 From: mlatorra at gmail.com (Michael LaTorra) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 18:35:50 -0600 Subject: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against China attack on Taiwan In-Reply-To: References: <20210810205828.Horde.uX9UJv2Omrq9CE7Pqi4MCKD@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <000101d78e67$ab5d40b0$0217c210$@rainier66.com> <002e01d78eb7$3bd28250$b37786f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: "Bless you prison, bless you for being in my life. For there, lying upon the rotting prison straw, I came to realize that the object of life is not prosperity as we are made to believe, but the maturity of the human soul." - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 8:16 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Spike wrote: > "John I wouldn?t be much fun there. I would be a rotting corpse. Recall > the reason why Japan didn?t invade California: there would be a gun behind > every bush. I would be one of those behind a gun." > > I appreciate your fighting spirit! > > On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 6:48 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> *?*> *On Behalf Of *John Grigg via extropy-chat >> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against >> China attack on Taiwan >> >> >> >> Spike wrote: >> >> "The thought had occurred to me. The internet never forgets. All the >> disparaging comments I have posted about commies are there forever. This >> is >> not to say I have any intentions of stopping however." >> >> >> >> Spike, I hope that if China ever takes over, that I get to share a cell >> with you and Stuart! I would learn so much! : ) Well, at least when not >> working a 14 hour shift of breaking rocks, after which we would spend >> several hours memorizing Socialist-Leninist-Marxist doctrine, with a great >> deal of encouragement from the instructors... >> >> >> >> John >> >> >> >> >> >> John I wouldn?t be much fun there. I would be a rotting corpse. Recall >> the reason why Japan didn?t invade California: there would be a gun behind >> every bush. I would be one of those behind a gun. >> >> >> >> spike >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Aug 12 00:41:38 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 17:41:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarian city - from Quora In-Reply-To: References: <003e01d78eda$b070b4b0$11521e10$@rainier66.com> <948A48F9-7C99-447D-AE23-ED4F2E0ED804@gmail.com> <006c01d78eec$f7315370$e593fa50$@rainier66.com> <8417dcff-41b6-1084-f6a2-20ae6e8b5b70@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 5:21 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Adrian, this is a most excellent post. > Thank you. Blacks that I know and have known often, maybe mostly carry a gun, a razor, > a box cutter, or some other weapon. What if all they had were their > fists? A lot of murders would not occur. But the motive is mostly fear, > not aggression, so getting them to stop carrying is a no-go. > Honestly, the same applies to a lot of whites, possibly a greater absolute number (within the USA, at least). Other races too, of course. > Now I see where you can build a gun from a kit (Spike may tell us more > here) > I can relay a few additional details. There is wide leeway in the laws for those who build their own guns - and those who seek to take advantage of that leeway. These kits are not functional guns, and legally just short of guns - but can be turned into guns with a little machine tool work, using tools that many people already have (and are easy to buy if not already on hand). Granted, it requires competence with tools to make useful guns, which still stops a number of people. It has also been possible to 3D print guns for some years now. It is also possible to put together a hand-portable laser that can inflict a lot of damage on a person - see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6FbUiiwutQ - not instant death, but serious burns, possibly able to kill if the beam is kept on the victim long enough. (I am not yet aware of anyone trying this with a laser as powerful as the one in that video on a living human, a corpse, or a corpse-equivalent such as a gel dummy, but I wouldn't be surprised if such a test has happened.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Aug 12 17:15:03 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2021 10:15:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Magnetizable Concrete in Roads Could Charge Electric Cars While You Drive Message-ID: "Installing the system is also not cheap at roughly $5 million per mile, but according to the *New York Times* *,* the German government thinks it may still be cheaper than having to switch to trucks powered by hydrogen fuel cells or large enough batteries to enable long-haul deliveries. The country?s transport ministry is currently comparing the three approaches before making a decision about which to support. Even if the economics make sense, rolling out road charging infrastructure will be an enormous effort, and it could take decades before every highway can help top your car up. But if the technology keeps progressing, it could one day make empty tanks a thing of the past." https://singularityhub.com/2021/08/09/magnetizable-concrete-in-roads-could-charge-electric-cars-while-you-drive/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Aug 12 17:17:26 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2021 10:17:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] A Secret to Healthy Aging May Be the Bugs in Your Microbiome Message-ID: ?The gut microbiome is emerging as a key factor in the aging process? Abnormal shifts in the gut microbiome, however, have been implicated in the pathogenesis of age-related chronic diseases,? wrote Drs. Minhoo Kim and Berenice Benayoun at the University of Southern California in a previous article (they were not involved in this study). The results don?t mean a longevity probiotic is coming soon to a store near you. The team will still need to test whether isoalloLCA and other unique bile acids from centenarians can prolong healthy longevity through additional participants and animal studies. ?Like many studies that seek to implicate specific microbiome signatures with particular conditions in humans, as yet the work mostly reveals correlations rather than causality,? said Barrett. But the study highlights gut bug bile acids as a potential source of health elixirs. ?It may be possible to exploit the bile-acid-metabolizing capabilities of the identified bacterial strains to rationally manipulate the pool for health benefits,? the authors said." https://singularityhub.com/2021/08/10/study-of-160-centenarians-points-to-the-gut-as-a-source-of-healthy-longevity/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Aug 12 17:22:29 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2021 10:22:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Flight_Testing_Will_Soon_Start_on_the_World?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99s_Fastest_Reusable_Aircraft?= Message-ID: My flight to the Philippines took 18 hours! Lol But such a long duration can help a person to prepare psychologically for a major life change... "Last week, NASA released a timelapse video showing construction of a supersonic jet called the X-59 Quiet SuperSonic Technology (QueSST or ?son of Concorde? for short). The experimental aircraft is designed to fly faster than the speed of sound without producing the telltale sonic booms that were part of what led to the Concorde being retired back in 2003. Now there?s an even faster plane under development. Atlanta-based aerospace startup Hermeus just announced a $60 million contract with the US Air Force to flight test the company?s Quarterhorse, a hypersonic aircraft that can fly at Mach 5 speeds. That?s over 3,000 miles per hour, a speed that could deliver passengers from the eastern US to western Europe in 90 minutes." https://singularityhub.com/2021/08/11/flight-testing-will-soon-start-on-the-worlds-fastest-reusable-aircraft/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Aug 12 17:42:05 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2021 10:42:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Top admiral: Defense firms are lobbying against the weapons the US Navy needs Message-ID: Between the CCP, American pork barrel politics, and military industrial complex executives and lobbyists, the U.S. Navy has quite a challenge on it's hands as they attempt to prepare for war in a timely fashion... "The U.S. Navy?s top admiral accused defense companies of slow-rolling the production of certain weapons, moving too slowly on ship repairs, and lobbying against newer types of ships and aircraft that are needed to compete with China. ?Although it?s in industry?s best interest?building the ships that you want to build, lagging on repairs to ships and to submarines, lobbying Congress to buy aircraft that we don?t need, that excess to need, it?s not helpful,? Adm. Mike Gilday, chief of naval operations said Monday. ?It really isn?t, in a budget-constrained environment.? ?One of the things, I think, where industry can really help us is to be a bit more agile in pivoting to new technologies and new platforms,? Gilday said. ?It?s not the ?90s anymore, as we go to the tri-service [maritime] strategy and really try to punctuate the sense of urgency that we feel every day against China to move the needle in a bureaucracy that?s really not designed to move very fast.? ?About a year ago, the Navy spent a day with industry leaders, showing them the results of some of our wargaming,? he said. ?I think that was really, really instructive. We need to do that again?and we need to do more of it not only with industry, but with the Hill.? https://americanmilitarynews.com/2021/08/top-admiral-defense-firms-are-lobbying-against-the-weapons-the-us-navy-needs/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Thu Aug 12 03:33:58 2021 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 23:33:58 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Magnetizable Concrete in Roads Could Charge Electric Cars While You Drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <106F689C-9C3F-4502-A623-665C3C1E2FE3@gmail.com> Very interesting. Hard to imagine but that doesn?t mean much these days. SR Ballard > On Aug 11, 2021, at 10:13 PM, John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > "Installing the system is also not cheap at roughly $5 million per mile, but according to the New York Times, the German government thinks it may still be cheaper than having to switch to trucks powered by hydrogen fuel cells or large enough batteries to enable long-haul deliveries. The country?s transport ministry is currently comparing the three approaches before making a decision about which to support. > > Even if the economics make sense, rolling out road charging infrastructure will be an enormous effort, and it could take decades before every highway can help top your car up. But if the technology keeps progressing, it could one day make empty tanks a thing of the past." > > https://singularityhub.com/2021/08/09/magnetizable-concrete-in-roads-could-charge-electric-cars-while-you-drive/ > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Thu Aug 12 04:15:14 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 21:15:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against China attack on Taiwan In-Reply-To: <20210810205828.Horde.uX9UJv2Omrq9CE7Pqi4MCKD@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20210810205828.Horde.uX9UJv2Omrq9CE7Pqi4MCKD@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <360ab0a6-fbc6-2b15-0806-5155b3f4b231@pobox.com> On 2021-8-10 20:58, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote: > Consider that it is the successor state of the former government of > China in exile. If the world harbors any hope of China becoming an > actual democratic republic, then it may lie in Taiwan. Is there precedent for such a pattern? (Nearest that comes to mind is the Byzantine Empire's westward conquests beginning in 533) > China is already about 2/3rds of U.S. GDP and growing. > If China conquers Taiwan, and the tiger economies, > then they will have overnight economic parity. Assuming that it doesn't wreck the tiger economies. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From bronto at pobox.com Thu Aug 12 16:28:00 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2021 09:28:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] how's Mao doing these days? was: US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against China attack on Taiwan In-Reply-To: <20210810205828.Horde.uX9UJv2Omrq9CE7Pqi4MCKD@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20210810205828.Horde.uX9UJv2Omrq9CE7Pqi4MCKD@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On 2021-8-10 20:58, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote: > Then it might be time to learn Mandarin, > praise Mao, and mind your social credits. Is Mao still unquestionable? What is the Party line nowadays on the Great Leap Forward? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Fri Aug 13 07:45:29 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2021 00:45:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] how's Mao doing these days? was: US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against China attack on Taiwan In-Reply-To: References: <20210810205828.Horde.uX9UJv2Omrq9CE7Pqi4MCKD@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: The elderly who survived the Great Leap Forward are allowed to discuss their suffering in the media, as long as they limit their criticisms. On Thu, Aug 12, 2021 at 9:31 AM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2021-8-10 20:58, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote: > > Then it might be time to learn Mandarin, > > praise Mao, and mind your social credits. > > Is Mao still unquestionable? > What is the Party line nowadays on the Great Leap Forward? > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Fri Aug 13 01:21:12 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2021 18:21:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] how's Mao doing these days? was: US ?failed miserably? in wargame reportedly against China attack on Taiwan In-Reply-To: References: <20210810205828.Horde.uX9UJv2Omrq9CE7Pqi4MCKD@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <4822812c-e8b3-092f-c853-73cc574f51e1@pobox.com> On 2021-8-12 09:28, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat wrote: > Is Mao still unquestionable? > What is the Party line nowadays on the Great Leap Forward? To my surprise, a websearch for the phrase "Great Leap Famineward" comes up empty, though "Great Leap Famine" has many hits. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 13 03:24:38 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2021 20:24:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms Message-ID: <000201d78ff2$bfc62350$3f5269f0$@rainier66.com> May we all move from the Dark Ages to the Post-Modern Renaissance. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 41816 bytes Desc: not available URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Fri Aug 13 22:29:11 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2021 15:29:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms In-Reply-To: <000201d78ff2$bfc62350$3f5269f0$@rainier66.com> References: <000201d78ff2$bfc62350$3f5269f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Modern-day India comes to mind, due to how hard they have been hit by the pandemic... On Thu, Aug 12, 2021 at 8:27 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > May we all move from the Dark Ages to the Post-Modern Renaissance. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 41816 bytes Desc: not available URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Aug 14 00:11:48 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2021 17:11:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] New Research Shows How Dopamine Plays a Key Role in Consciousness Message-ID: "In a study published in the *Proceedings of the National Academies of Science*, we have now shown that conscious brain activity seems to be linked to the brain?s ?pleasure chemical ,? dopamine. The fact that the neural mechanisms that underpin consciousness disorders are difficult to characterize makes these conditions hard to diagnose and treat. Brain imaging has established that a network of interconnected brain regions, known as the default mode network, is involved in self-awareness. This network has also been shown to be impaired in anesthesia and after brain damage that causes disorders of consciousness. Importantly, it seems to be crucial to conscious experience." https://singularityhub.com/2021/08/12/new-research-shows-dopamine-may-play-a-key-role-in-consciousness/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Aug 14 00:17:21 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2021 17:17:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] An Indigenous people in the Philippines have the most Denisovan DNA Message-ID: "Denisovans are an elusive bunch, known mainly from ancient DNA samples and traces of that DNA that the ancient hominids shared when they interbred with *Homo sapiens*. They left their biggest genetic imprint on people who now live in Southeast Asian islands, nearby Papua New Guinea and Australia. Genetic evidence now shows that a Philippine Negrito ethnic group has inherited the most Denisovan ancestry of all. Indigenous people known as the Ayta Magbukon get around 5 percent of their DNA from Denisovans, a new study finds. This finding fits an evolutionary scenario in which two or more Stone Age Denisovan populations independently reached various Southeast Asian islands, including the Philippines and a landmass that consisted of what?s now Papua New Guinea, Australia and Tasmania. Exact arrival dates are unknown, but nearly 200,000-year-old stone tools found on the Indonesian island of Sulawesi may have been made by Denisovans (*SN*: 1/13/16). *H. sapiens* groups that started arriving around 50,000 years ago or more then interbred with resident Denisovans. Evolutionary geneticists Maximilian Larena and Mattias Jakobsson, both at Uppsala University in Sweden, and their team describe the new evidence August 12 in *Current Biology*." https://www.sciencenews.org/article/indigenous-people-philippines-denisovan-dna-genetics -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Aug 13 13:47:23 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2021 08:47:23 -0500 Subject: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms In-Reply-To: <000201d78ff2$bfc62350$3f5269f0$@rainier66.com> References: <000201d78ff2$bfc62350$3f5269f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: May we all move from the Dark Ages to the Post-Modern Renaissance. spike Here's an open-ended question for you: what do we need to do as individuals (starting with improving yourself) and collectively to improve our world and our country? Yeah, I know -- it will take you ten thousand words to do that, but can you just make a list and prioritize it? bill w On Thu, Aug 12, 2021 at 10:27 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > May we all move from the Dark Ages to the Post-Modern Renaissance. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 41816 bytes Desc: not available URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Aug 14 06:32:42 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2021 23:32:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Dubai Is A Parody Of The 21st Century Message-ID: I have a Filipino friend who has some crazy stories of being a chauffeur there for a womanizing western vice president, who was regularly getting the two of them into serious trouble... "The worst of urban planning and capitalism, plus some slavery for good measure. Welcome to Dubai, everyone." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SacQ2YdVOyk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Aug 14 19:15:56 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2021 12:15:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms In-Reply-To: References: <000201d78ff2$bfc62350$3f5269f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: William Flynn Wallace wrote: "Here's an open-ended question for you: what do we need to do as individuals (starting with improving yourself) and collectively to improve our world and our country? Yeah, I know -- it will take you ten thousand words to do that, but can you just make a list and prioritize it?" A great question! : ) On Fri, Aug 13, 2021 at 11:13 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > May we all move from the Dark Ages to the Post-Modern Renaissance. > > > > spike > > Here's an open-ended question for you: what do we need to do as > individuals (starting with improving yourself) and collectively to improve > our world and our country? Yeah, I know -- it will take you ten thousand > words to do that, but can you just make a list and prioritize it? bill w > > On Thu, Aug 12, 2021 at 10:27 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> May we all move from the Dark Ages to the Post-Modern Renaissance. >> >> >> >> spike >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 41816 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 14 04:48:40 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2021 21:48:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms In-Reply-To: References: <000201d78ff2$bfc62350$3f5269f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <000c01d790c7$a7c4c060$f74e4120$@rainier66.com> ? >>?May we all move from the Dark Ages to the Post-Modern Renaissance. spike ? Subject: Re: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms William Flynn Wallace wrote: >?"Here's an open-ended question for you: what do we need to do as individuals (starting with improving yourself) and collectively to improve our world and our country? Yeah, I know -- it will take you ten thousand words to do that, but can you just make a list and prioritize it?" If it has been a while, re-read Orwell?s Nineteen Eighty Four, and read carefully please. This applies to people in every country everywhere. Read some of the other old time classic lit, such as Lord of the Flies, and Hofstadter?s Godel, Escher, Bach. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Aug 14 09:20:49 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2021 10:20:49 +0100 Subject: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms In-Reply-To: <000c01d790c7$a7c4c060$f74e4120$@rainier66.com> References: <000201d78ff2$bfc62350$3f5269f0$@rainier66.com> <000c01d790c7$a7c4c060$f74e4120$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 at 05:51, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > If it has been a while, re-read Orwell?s Nineteen Eighty Four, and read carefully please. This applies to people in every country everywhere. > > Read some of the other old time classic lit, such as Lord of the Flies, and Hofstadter?s Godel, Escher, Bach. > > spike > _______________________________________________ Orwell wrote 1984 and Huxley wrote Brave New World. Consider who turned out to be more accurate. < https://graspingatawes.com/2021/02/08/neil-postmans-famous-comparison-of-the-prophetic-insights-of-orwell-vs-huxley/> Quote from Postman 'Amusing ourselves to death' in 1985 ---- Orwell warns that we will be overcome by an externally imposed oppression. But in Huxley?s vision, no Big Brother is required to deprive people of their autonomy, maturity and history. As he saw it, people will come to love their oppression, to adore the technologies that undo their capacities to think. What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one. Orwell feared those who would deprive us of information. Huxley feared those who would give us so much that we would be reduced to passivity and egoism. Orwell feared that the truth would be concealed from us. Huxley feared the truth would be drowned in a sea of irrelevance. Orwell feared we would become a captive culture. Huxley feared we would become a trivial culture, preoccupied with some equivalent of the feelies, the orgy porgy, and the centrifugal bumblepuppy. As Huxley remarked in Brave New World Revisited, the civil libertarians and rationalists who are ever on the alert to oppose tyranny ?failed to take into account man?s almost infinite appetite for distractions.? In 1984, Huxley added, people are controlled by inflicting pain. In Brave New World, they are controlled by inflicting pleasure. ---------------- Quote from Ben L Self in 2021 -- In the years since Postman published that passage, I think the internet and the general proliferation of recording technologies have given us a little more cause to be concerned about the kind of propaganda-infused ?groupthink? and the prospect of the ?surveillance state? Orwell feared than Postman predicted. The internet has certainly become a powerful tool for surveillance and the spread of propaganda and disinformation, and if you want to see a disturbing modern manifestation of Orwell?s dystopian vision, look no further than to what?s been happening in China. That said, the overwhelming impact of modern media and communication technologies has clearly been to numb and distract the public through pleasure, rather than to forcefully deprive us of our autonomy. In that sense, I think Huxley (and by extension Postman) was spot-on. The two ideas that most stick out to me from the passage are (1) that ?people will come to love their oppression [like any addiction], to adore the technologies that undo their capacities to think? and (2) that we will be bombarded with so much information (most of it trivial) that ?we would be reduced to passivity and egoism? and ?the truth would [thus] be drowned in a sea of irrelevance.? Those two fears have clearly been realized to a disturbing extent. ----------------------------- Spike's frontiersman independent spirit is clearly more opposed to Orwell's view of oppression from governments and restrictions on his freedom. But for the great majority of the modern world's population the greater threat is voluntarily giving up their freedom in return for pleasure and distraction. It is the current version of 'wire-heading' -- Civilisation ends bathed in continuous pleasure. BillK From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sun Aug 15 00:54:08 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2021 17:54:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms In-Reply-To: References: <000201d78ff2$bfc62350$3f5269f0$@rainier66.com> <000c01d790c7$a7c4c060$f74e4120$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: BillK wrote: "Civilisation ends bathed in continuous pleasure." A recent popular singularity scenario is where we are ruled by AI not at gunpoint, but by the hordes of sexbots that keep us contented. And so AI takes on the role of the seducer/seductress... John On Sat, Aug 14, 2021 at 2:24 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 at 05:51, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > If it has been a while, re-read Orwell?s Nineteen Eighty Four, and read > carefully please. This applies to people in every country everywhere. > > > > Read some of the other old time classic lit, such as Lord of the Flies, > and Hofstadter?s Godel, Escher, Bach. > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > > > Orwell wrote 1984 and Huxley wrote Brave New World. > Consider who turned out to be more accurate. > < > > https://graspingatawes.com/2021/02/08/neil-postmans-famous-comparison-of-the-prophetic-insights-of-orwell-vs-huxley/ > > > > Quote from Postman 'Amusing ourselves to death' in 1985 ---- > Orwell warns that we will be overcome by an externally imposed > oppression. But in Huxley?s vision, no Big Brother is required to > deprive people of their autonomy, maturity and history. As he saw it, > people will come to love their oppression, to adore the technologies > that undo their capacities to think. > > What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared > was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no > one who wanted to read one. > Orwell feared those who would deprive us of information. Huxley feared > those who would give us so much that we would be reduced to passivity > and egoism. > Orwell feared that the truth would be concealed from us. Huxley feared > the truth would be drowned in a sea of irrelevance. > Orwell feared we would become a captive culture. Huxley feared we > would become a trivial culture, preoccupied with some equivalent of > the feelies, the orgy porgy, and the centrifugal bumblepuppy. > As Huxley remarked in Brave New World Revisited, the civil > libertarians and rationalists who are ever on the alert to oppose > tyranny ?failed to take into account man?s almost infinite appetite > for distractions.? In 1984, Huxley added, people are controlled by > inflicting pain. In Brave New World, they are controlled by inflicting > pleasure. > ---------------- > > Quote from Ben L Self in 2021 -- > In the years since Postman published that passage, I think the > internet and the general proliferation of recording technologies have > given us a little more cause to be concerned about the kind of > propaganda-infused ?groupthink? and the prospect of the ?surveillance > state? Orwell feared than Postman predicted. The internet has > certainly become a powerful tool for surveillance and the spread of > propaganda and disinformation, and if you want to see a disturbing > modern manifestation of Orwell?s dystopian vision, look no further > than to what?s been happening in China. > > That said, the overwhelming impact of modern media and communication > technologies has clearly been to numb and distract the public through > pleasure, rather than to forcefully deprive us of our autonomy. In > that sense, I think Huxley (and by extension Postman) was spot-on. > The two ideas that most stick out to me from the passage are > (1) that ?people will come to love their oppression [like any > addiction], to adore the technologies that undo their capacities to > think? and > (2) that we will be bombarded with so much information (most of it > trivial) that ?we would be reduced to passivity and egoism? and ?the > truth would [thus] be drowned in a sea of irrelevance.? > Those two fears have clearly been realized to a disturbing extent. > ----------------------------- > > Spike's frontiersman independent spirit is clearly more opposed to > Orwell's view of oppression from governments and restrictions on his > freedom. But for the great majority of the modern world's population > the greater threat is voluntarily giving up their freedom in return > for pleasure and distraction. > It is the current version of 'wire-heading' -- > > > Civilisation ends bathed in continuous pleasure. > > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sun Aug 15 01:12:58 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2021 18:12:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The latest report from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) Message-ID: "Jochem Marotzke grew up in Cold War-era Germany, and was preoccupied, like everyone else, with nuclear war. Diplomacy and activism were important, he realized, but the crisis was binary: Either the bombs start falling, at which point the marginal value of one more summit or protest falls immediately to zero, or they don?t. Now, as a climate scientist at the Max Planck Institute for Meteorology, Marotzke is working to tackle a fundamentally different crisis. Because when it comes to the planet, no matter how bad things get, humanity will never lose the ability to make them a little less bad. That is a key conclusion of this week?s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) report , which Marotzke helped author. It was also the takeaway most obscured by this week?s doom-and-gloom headlines. Is climate change bad? Yes. Are many impacts already here, and irreversible (at least for centuries)? Yes. Is it humanity?s fault? ?Unequivocally,? the report says. Yet the report makes clear that every fraction of a degree of warming makes a tangible difference to the frequency and severity of impacts we will experience. Likewise, every avoided ton of CO2 emissions truly matters. That?s scary, because it guarantees things will get worse. But it?s the closest thing to optimism we have, because it means every action individuals, companies, or politicians take does make a genuine difference, and will continue to make a difference no matter what. The IPCC report isn?t a death sentence. It?s a call to action. And it has one thing in common with the specter of nuclear holocaust: Millions of lives are at stake. ?It?s never too late,? Marotzke says. ?And there is no point of no return.? *?Tim McDonnell* "Jochem Marotzke grew up in Cold War-era Germany, and was preoccupied, like everyone else, with nuclear war. Diplomacy and activism were important, he realized, but the crisis was binary: Either the bombs start falling, at which point the marginal value of one more summit or protest falls immediately to zero, or they don?t. Now, as a climate scientist at the Max Planck Institute for Meteorology, Marotzke is working to tackle a fundamentally different crisis. Because when it comes to the planet, no matter how bad things get, humanity will never lose the ability to make them a little less bad. That is a key conclusion of this week?s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) report , which Marotzke helped author. It was also the takeaway most obscured by this week?s doom-and-gloom headlines. Is climate change bad? Yes. Are many impacts already here, and irreversible (at least for centuries)? Yes. Is it humanity?s fault? ?Unequivocally,? the report says. Yet the report makes clear that every fraction of a degree of warming makes a tangible difference to the frequency and severity of impacts we will experience. Likewise, every avoided ton of CO2 emissions truly matters. That?s scary, because it guarantees things will get worse. But it?s the closest thing to optimism we have, because it means every action individuals, companies, or politicians take does make a genuine difference, and will continue to make a difference no matter what. The IPCC report isn?t a death sentence. It?s a call to action. And it has one thing in common with the specter of nuclear holocaust: Millions of lives are at stake. ?It?s never too late,? Marotzke says. ?And there is no point of no return.? *?Tim McDonnell"* https://qz.com/re/ipcc-climate-report/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Aug 14 10:29:21 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2021 11:29:21 +0100 Subject: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms In-Reply-To: References: <000201d78ff2$bfc62350$3f5269f0$@rainier66.com> <000c01d790c7$a7c4c060$f74e4120$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 at 10:53, John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote: > > BillK wrote: > "Civilisation ends bathed in continuous pleasure." > > A recent popular singularity scenario is where we are ruled by AI not at gunpoint, but by the hordes of sexbots that keep us contented. And so AI takes on the role of the seducer/seductress... > > John > _______________________________________________ Of course, it isn't an either/or situation. Both options will be applied by governments when necessary. The majority can be controlled by supplying pleasure and distraction. But there will always be some intransigent people who will require monitoring, surveillance, Guantanamo Bay savagery and even execution. Whatever is required to maintain power structures will be applied. BillK From ben at zaiboc.net Sat Aug 14 11:31:37 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2021 12:31:37 +0100 Subject: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9071d1e7-0e39-86b0-fffc-beb22d4d90ec@zaiboc.net> On 13/08/2021 19:10, billw wrote: > Here's an open-ended question for you:? what do we need to do as > individuals (starting with improving yourself) and collectively to > improve our world and our country?? Yeah, I know -- it will?take you > ten thousand words to do that, but can you just make a list and > prioritize it?? bill w It seems to me that the only things that are even theoretically capable of resisting the current rising tide of dictatorial, oppressive and power-hungry regimes (not to mention intolerance) are technology that can empower individuals, combined with education. As far as what individual people can do to fight against a future dark age, I reckon 1) educate yourself about what's going on in the world, and 2) encourage others to do the same, and 3) adopt the technologies that tend to empower users, and shun the ones that entrap and control them, and 4) encourage others to do the same. Learning about, and using, Free and Open software would be a good start, as well as learning about, and if possible, contributing to, the Freedom to Tinker movement. Read cautionary tales such as 1984, and learn to recognise the signs of governments taking them as instruction manuals rather than grim warnings. I realise there are huge obstacles to some of these things. Maybe a good first step would be 0) to try to figure out how to identify and overcome those obstacles. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Aug 14 15:23:42 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2021 10:23:42 -0500 Subject: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms In-Reply-To: <9071d1e7-0e39-86b0-fffc-beb22d4d90ec@zaiboc.net> References: <9071d1e7-0e39-86b0-fffc-beb22d4d90ec@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Good post, Ben. Let's start with obstacles: speaking as a Libertarian, just what freedoms do we need that we don't have? My first thought is scientific studies being hampered by government regulations (though I am ignorant as to what these might be - I seem to recall that they eased up on stem cell research). bill w On Sat, Aug 14, 2021 at 6:33 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 13/08/2021 19:10, billw wrote: > > Here's an open-ended question for you: what do we need to do as > individuals (starting with improving yourself) and collectively to improve > our world and our country? Yeah, I know -- it will take you ten thousand > words to do that, but can you just make a list and prioritize it? bill w > > > It seems to me that the only things that are even theoretically capable of > resisting the current rising tide of dictatorial, oppressive and > power-hungry regimes (not to mention intolerance) are technology that can > empower individuals, combined with education. > > As far as what individual people can do to fight against a future dark > age, I reckon 1) educate yourself about what's going on in the world, and > 2) encourage others to do the same, and 3) adopt the technologies that tend > to empower users, and shun the ones that entrap and control them, and 4) > encourage others to do the same. Learning about, and using, Free and Open > software would be a good start, as well as learning about, and if possible, > contributing to, the Freedom to Tinker movement. Read cautionary tales such > as 1984, and learn to recognise the signs of governments taking them as > instruction manuals rather than grim warnings. > > I realise there are huge obstacles to some of these things. Maybe a good > first step would be 0) to try to figure out how to identify and overcome > those obstacles. > > Ben > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sun Aug 15 18:43:48 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 11:43:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The most important personal computers in history, ranked Message-ID: "Forty years ago this week, the iconic IBM PC made its debut, cementing the personal computer as a mainstream product category to be reckoned with. Within a few years, America ? and the world ? went computer wild, with home computers suddenly the province of ordinary people. But which desktop computers go down as the most influential of all time? Here are 10 that changed the game." https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/most-important-personal-computers-in-history/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sun Aug 15 18:47:35 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 11:47:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Things going badly for Boeing Starliner, launch delayed indefinitely Message-ID: "Boeing and NASA have announced that they are calling off the planned test flight of the Starliner spacecraft, which is designed to ferry astronauts between Earth and the International Space Station. The Starliner had remained at the launch site in United Launch Alliance?s Vertical Integration Facility in hopes of a quick fix to a value issue, but now the Starliner will be moved back to a Boeing facility for further work." https://www.digitaltrends.com/news/boeing-starliner-oft-2-launch-called-off/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sun Aug 15 18:50:42 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 11:50:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] CyberDog is a new ominous-looking robot from Xiaomi Message-ID: "Chinese tech giant Xiaomi has unveiled a quadrupedal robot named CyberDog : an experimental, open-source machine that the firm says ?holds unforetold possibilities.? CyberDog is the latest example of tech companies embracing the quadrupedal form factor in robotics. The most notable example of the trend is Spot, a machine built by US firm Boston Dynamics. Spot went on sale last year for $74,500 and has been put to a range of uses, from surveying dangerous mines to helping doctors connect with patients remotely . It?s also been tested by both law enforcement and the military , though not as a weapon. XIAOMI SAYS CYBERDOG HAS A ?PET-LIKE NATURE? It?s not clear what purpose Xiaomi envisions for CyberDog. In a press release, the company stressed the open-source nature of the machine?s design and that it would release only 1,000 units initially for ?Xiaomi Fans, engineers, and robotic enthusiasts.? The company says it hopes these first users will ?propel the development and potential of quadruped robots? and is pricing the robot to sell. The first 1,000 units will cost just 9,999 Yuan, or roughly $1,540 (though it?s not clear if this price will be the same for any future releases). The same press release highlights CyberDog?s ?pet-like nature,? including its ability to respond to voice commands and follow its owner like a real dog. Looking at pictures of CyberDog, though, it?s clear Xiaomi isn?t pitching the machine as a rival to Aibo, Sony?s own robot canine. While Aibo is small and cute, CyberDog is sleek and futuristic ? even a little menacing. Renders of the machine make it look like the protagonist in a sci-fi TV show, pacing up stairs and appearing silhouetted in doorways. Inevitable comparisons to *Black Mirror*?s ?Metalhead? episode will be made, as they always are." https://www.theverge.com/2021/8/10/22618043/xiaomi-cyberdog-robot-dog-quadruped-specs-price -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sun Aug 15 18:54:33 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 11:54:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Can AI Make a Better Fusion Reactor? Message-ID: "Since the 1940s, physicists have tried, but no one has yet created an efficient nuclear fusion reaction. Meanwhile, AI and machine learning (ML) have, across many industries and applications, proved themselves quite capable at detecting subtle patterns in data that humans can't recognize. So could neural nets and the GPUs that power them help in nuclear fusion? The challenge, and it's a big one, would be to accelerate the worldwide quest to tame instabilities in hot plasmas and ultimately provide a source of sustainable, and carbon-free power." https://spectrum.ieee.org/can-ai-make-a-better-fusion-reactor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sun Aug 15 19:00:18 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 12:00:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] China Says It's Closing in on Thorium Nuclear Reactor Message-ID: "There is no denying the need for nuclear power in a world that hungers for clean, carbon-free energy. At the same time, there's a need for safer technologies that bear less proliferation risk. Molten salt nuclear reactors (MSRs) fit the bill?and, according to at least one source , China may be well on their way to developing MSR technology. Government researchers there unveiled a design for a commercial molten salt reactor (MSR) that uses thorium as fuel , the *South China Morning Post* reported recently . A prototype reactor, the paper said, should be ready this month for tests starting in September. Construction of the first commercial reactor being built in the Gansu province should be complete, they noted, by 2030. If all goes well with the prototype, says a report in Live Science , the Chinese government plans to build several large MSRs. According to the World Nuclear Association , the country is eyeing thorium MSRs as a source of energy especially for the northwestern portion of the country, which has lower population density and an arid climate. MSRs are attractive for arid regions because instead of the water used by conventional uranium reactors, MSRs use molten fluoride salts to cool their cores. Uranium or thorium fuel can be mixed into the coolant salt. Thorium MSRs have the advantage of being more abundant and cheaper . China's experimental reactor won't be the world's first. Researchers at Oak Ridge National Laboratory (ORNL) pioneered thorium-based MSRs in the 1950s for nuclear aircraft propulsion as part of the Manhattan Project. A 7.4 MWth experimental reactor operated at the laboratory over a period of four years ?although only a portion of its fuel was derived from uranium-233 bred from thorium in other reactors. This MSR technology was eventually shelved because the Pentagon favored the uranium fast breeder reactor, says Charles Forsberg, Principal Research Scientist at MIT's department of Nuclear Science and Engineering and former nuclear researcher at ORNL. Scientists in China are now building on the same basic MSR technology developed at ORNL. The Chinese government had a small, short-lived knowledge exchange program with ORNL. But most of the thorium reactor-related intellectual property from ORNL is in the public domain, and China appears to have made some use of it. "The real data mine is the thousands of published reports in 1960s and '70s that are found in the open literature," Forsberg says. Plus, recent technology developments have made it more feasible to build MSRs, he adds. This includes modern instrumentation that can unveil exactly what goes on in the reactor?but also includes equipment that finds parallel use, such as high-temperature salt pumps used in today's concentrated solar power plants that store heat via molten salts ." https://spectrum.ieee.org/china-closing-in-on-thorium-nuclear-reactor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sun Aug 15 19:02:33 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 12:02:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Why Silicon Valley Cares About Silicon Again Chip shortage gets all eyes in tech back on semiconductors Message-ID: "Chips are sexy again, after years of hiding behind the scenes. That's what NBC's Bay Area journalist Scott Budman says. And tech historian Michael S. Malone agrees. "There's a reason it's called Silicon Valley," says Malone, author of *The Big Score: The Billion Dollar Story of Silicon Valley*, and about a dozen other books about Silicon Valley's people and companies. "Chips matter," he continued, "because everything flows from that. We get excited about new products and companies, but they all depend on chips getting built, and right now they aren't getting built. You can't get a Ford F150 [truck], the most popular vehicle in U.S., because they can't get the microprocessor for the engine computer." Malone and Budman were speaking as part of the Computer History Museum's CHM Live series of virtual events. It was a chip crisis in the 1980s that helped put Silicon Valley on the map in the first place, Malone pointed out. "The Japanese came rolling in with chips that were better than ours," he said. "I was at an event where a guy from H-P showed quality charts, Silicon Valley chips vs. Japanese chips, and [the Japanese chips] were so much better and cheaper than ours. That's when the battle with Japan put Silicon Valley on the map as a crucial part of the American economy" But then times changed, thanks to the increasing importance of software. "The Valley had a fundamental shift between hardware and software, between the electrical engineers and the code writers," Malone said. The customers changed as well; Silicon Valley companies had been selling to other manufacturing companies. The new companies targeted consumers, a far different market. "You sold on specs in the hardware era, you sell on manipulation in the software era," he said. In "the social networking era, the companies are thinking about how to enlist you in joining their cult. They use tricks from casinos and everywhere else. They convince us to design our own products. After all, what is Facebook but a set of tools to make us into workers?" "As long as the money is here, the Valley will regenerate itself." As the software and apps piled up, the chips disappeared, hidden away. "The last time we thought about chips was with the 'Intel Inside' marketing campaign," he said. But that has suddenly changed. Now, Malone said, "it's a dangerous time. Eighty percent of the world's chips are made in Taiwan, and China has found the choke point of the world economy?those fabs. There's a scramble to build fabs outside Taiwan, but that will take two to three years. So it's a very worrisome time right now." https://spectrum.ieee.org/silicon-valley-cares-about-chips-again -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sun Aug 15 19:05:43 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 12:05:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Joby Aviation makes its public trading debut on the NYSE Message-ID: "Joby is developing a five-seat electric vertical take-off and landing aircraft, which it unveiled to much anticipation in February. The company, which has backing from Toyota and JetBlue, has released a slew of announcements in recent months as it geared up for the public listing. ?A lot of people talk about us as a secretive company,? Bevirt said in an interview with TechCrunch. ?We?re not actually a secretive company, we just choose to do the work and then show our work, rather than talking about it and then doing it.? "One way to frame the fate of air taxis is whether they will be more like autonomous vehicles or electric vehicles. The AV space circa five years ago was filled with companies setting ambitious expectations about when true self-driving cars would be on the roads, only to have multiple companies collapse or sell under the weight of overshot expectations. But Sciarra suggested that a better analogy to the eVTOL industry as it currently stands is the early days of electric vehicles. He pointed out that Joby?s aircraft is designed to conform to existing safety and certification standards, with a trained pilot onboard, similar to how helicopters and planes operate today. ?We didn?t want to compound the technical risk of developing a new aircraft with the technical and regulatory risk of developing full autonomy from day one.? https://techcrunch.com/2021/08/11/joby-aviation-makes-its-public-trading-debut-on-the-nyse/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sun Aug 15 19:23:02 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 12:23:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Scientists Create Quantum System That Stays Operational 10, 000 Longer Message-ID: "Quantum computers only are useful to us when we know how the states of electrons relate to each other. But getting to a state where this relationship is known ? ?quantum coherence? ? is extremely difficult and costly. That may soon change thanks to a new discovery. A team of scientists at the University of Chicago have figured out a way to keep a quantum computer system ?coherent? (or: operational) 10,000 times longer than before, according to a new study published in the journal *Science* on Thursday. The scientists claim their solution could be applied to any other kind of quantum system and could end up revolutionizing the field." https://futurism.com/quantum-computer-system-operational -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sun Aug 15 19:26:29 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 12:26:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms In-Reply-To: References: <9071d1e7-0e39-86b0-fffc-beb22d4d90ec@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: BillW wrote: "Good post, Ben. Let's start with obstacles: speaking as a Libertarian, just what freedoms do we need that we don't have? My first thought is scientific studies being hampered by government regulations (though I am ignorant as to what these might be - I seem to recall that they eased up on stem cell research)." And what about crypto? On Sat, Aug 14, 2021 at 8:26 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Good post, Ben. Let's start with obstacles: speaking as a Libertarian, > just what freedoms do we need that we don't have? My first thought is > scientific studies being hampered by government regulations (though I am > ignorant as to what these might be - I seem to recall that they eased up on > stem cell research). bill w > > On Sat, Aug 14, 2021 at 6:33 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On 13/08/2021 19:10, billw wrote: >> >> Here's an open-ended question for you: what do we need to do as >> individuals (starting with improving yourself) and collectively to improve >> our world and our country? Yeah, I know -- it will take you ten thousand >> words to do that, but can you just make a list and prioritize it? bill w >> >> >> It seems to me that the only things that are even theoretically capable >> of resisting the current rising tide of dictatorial, oppressive and >> power-hungry regimes (not to mention intolerance) are technology that can >> empower individuals, combined with education. >> >> As far as what individual people can do to fight against a future dark >> age, I reckon 1) educate yourself about what's going on in the world, and >> 2) encourage others to do the same, and 3) adopt the technologies that tend >> to empower users, and shun the ones that entrap and control them, and 4) >> encourage others to do the same. Learning about, and using, Free and Open >> software would be a good start, as well as learning about, and if possible, >> contributing to, the Freedom to Tinker movement. Read cautionary tales such >> as 1984, and learn to recognise the signs of governments taking them as >> instruction manuals rather than grim warnings. >> >> I realise there are huge obstacles to some of these things. Maybe a good >> first step would be 0) to try to figure out how to identify and overcome >> those obstacles. >> >> Ben >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sun Aug 15 19:53:44 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 12:53:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Cryptocurrency Heist: Hacker Returns Most of $610 Million-Plus Crypto Tokens Stolen, Poly Network Says Message-ID: "Hackers behind one of the biggest ever digital coin heists have now returned nearly all of the $610 million (roughly Rs. 4,530 crores)-plus they stole, Poly Network, the cryptocurrency platform targeted earlier this week by the attack, said on Thursday. The platform, which was little known before Tuesday's heist, declared the hacker on Twitter as a "white hat," referring to ethical hackers who generally aim to expose cyber vulnerabilities, upon the return of the funds". He returned *most* of the $610 million he stole? And so did he charge a finder's fee? Lol https://gadgets.ndtv.com/cryptocurrency/news/cryptocurrency-heist-poly-network-hack-theft-usd-610-million-hacker-return-most-amount-wallet-multi-signature-twitter-2509376 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 15 05:05:32 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2021 22:05:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Things going badly for Boeing Starliner, launch delayed indefinitely In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006401d79193$2d4e5f90$87eb1eb0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Grigg via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Things going badly for Boeing Starliner, launch delayed indefinitely "Boeing and NASA have announced that they are calling off the planned test flight of the Starliner spacecraft, which is designed to ferry astronauts between Earth and the International Space Station. The Starliner had remained at the launch site in United Launch Alliance?s Vertical Integration Facility in hopes of a quick fix to a value issue, but now the Starliner will be moved back to a Boeing facility for further work." https://www.digitaltrends.com/news/boeing-starliner-oft-2-launch-called-off/ I confidently predict failure for Boeing?s Starliner. Do feel free to inquire of the old spikemeister why he makes such a grim prognostication. Hint: there?s more to it than a bad valve. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Aug 15 05:08:42 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2021 22:08:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Things going badly for Boeing Starliner, launch delayed indefinitely In-Reply-To: <006401d79193$2d4e5f90$87eb1eb0$@rainier66.com> References: <006401d79193$2d4e5f90$87eb1eb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 14, 2021 at 10:06 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I confidently predict failure for Boeing?s Starliner. > > > > Do feel free to inquire of the old spikemeister why he makes such a grim > prognostication. Hint: there?s more to it than a bad valve. > There's far more to it, indeed. Which particular aspects of this catch your eye? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 15 05:17:07 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2021 22:17:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Can AI Make a Better Fusion Reactor? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007201d79194$cb54ab30$61fe0190$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Grigg via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Can AI Make a Better Fusion Reactor? "Since the 1940s, physicists have tried, but no one has yet created an efficient nuclear fusion reaction. Meanwhile, AI and machine learning (ML) have, across many industries and applications, proved themselves quite capable at detecting subtle patterns in data that humans can't recognize. So could neural nets and the GPUs that power them help in nuclear fusion? The challenge, and it's a big one, would be to accelerate the worldwide quest to tame instabilities in hot plasmas and ultimately provide a source of sustainable, and carbon-free power." https://spectrum.ieee.org/can-ai-make-a-better-fusion-reactor John, no sir. The problem is not that we aren?t smart enough to know how to extract energy from hot plasma. We are smart enough to know how to extract energy from hot plasma. The problem with fusion, the same problem with fusion we will still have when you are much older than I am now, is that most of the energy released from a fusion reaction comes from the hot neutron. To extract or convert the energy from a hot neutron, ya hafta capture that neutron somehow, and if so, whatever is used to capture that neutron is an atom with an extra neutron, an isotope, which is less stable than it was before the neutron joined us way down there in the nuclear family. OK then. The material, absolutely regardless of what it is, which is used to capture that neutron, is degraded and less stable than it was. It has itself become radioactive. Every fusion reaction creates a hot neutron and every hot neutron (if its energy is captured) degrades the containment vessel in some way. Upon this realization, I stopped waiting for a new hotshot Tokamak or any other tech miracle to come along and save our butts. Now I am firmly convinced that the technology we have had for 80 years, the fission reactors, in sufficient quantities, can carry enough of the base load to prevent us from cooking ourselves with carbon dioxide. Before you start typing a rebuttal, note please that our world runs primarily on three power sources: oil, gas and coal. Oy vey I am such a downer today, my goodness. It really is me writing, but Boeing and fusion are both heading for failure. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 15 05:21:54 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2021 22:21:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Scientists Create Quantum System That Stays Operational 10, 000 Longer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007901d79195$76cf4a10$646dde30$@rainier66.com> COOL! Thanks John, I wanted something for which I can express some optimism after pooping on Boeing and fusion power. spike From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Grigg via extropy-chat Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2021 12:23 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: John Grigg Subject: [ExI] Scientists Create Quantum System That Stays Operational 10, 000 Longer "Quantum computers only are useful to us when we know how the states of electrons relate to each other. But getting to a state where this relationship is known ? ?quantum coherence? ? is extremely difficult and costly. That may soon change thanks to a new discovery. A team of scientists at the University of Chicago have figured out a way to keep a quantum computer system ?coherent? (or: operational) 10,000 times longer than before, according to a new study published in the journal Science on Thursday. The scientists claim their solution could be applied to any other kind of quantum system and could end up revolutionizing the field." https://futurism.com/quantum-computer-system-operational -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 15 05:27:51 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2021 22:27:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Things going badly for Boeing Starliner, launch delayed indefinitely In-Reply-To: References: <006401d79193$2d4e5f90$87eb1eb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008001d79196$4b3b2c10$e1b18430$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Things going badly for Boeing Starliner, launch delayed indefinitely On Sat, Aug 14, 2021 at 10:06 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: I confidently predict failure for Boeing?s Starliner. Do feel free to inquire of the old spikemeister why he makes such a grim prognostication. Hint: there?s more to it than a bad valve. >?There's far more to it, indeed. Which particular aspects of this catch your eye? Saying there is a valve problem is a classic way to not say their instruments are doing something they don?t understand. In many cases, valves are placed where they can be serviced on the pad. Adrian you will appreciate this: in the long run, the bloated biggies like Lockheed and Boeing will be defeated in the launcher business by smaller, more focused companies, where the workforce isn?t unionized, where they were not compelled to spread out contracts all over the country, as the aerospace biggies are. Sooner or later, the inefficiencies inherent to the big defense contractors make them non-competitive with those unencumbered. Stand by, watch. Boeing will fail. Musk will probably be the one to eat their lunch. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Aug 15 05:43:32 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2021 22:43:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Things going badly for Boeing Starliner, launch delayed indefinitely In-Reply-To: <008001d79196$4b3b2c10$e1b18430$@rainier66.com> References: <006401d79193$2d4e5f90$87eb1eb0$@rainier66.com> <008001d79196$4b3b2c10$e1b18430$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 14, 2021 at 10:29 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Saying there is a valve problem is a classic way to not say their > instruments are doing something they don?t understand. In many cases, > valves are placed where they can be serviced on the pad. > > > > Adrian you will appreciate this: in the long run, the bloated biggies like > Lockheed and Boeing will be defeated in the launcher business by smaller, > more focused companies, where the workforce isn?t unionized, where they > were not compelled to spread out contracts all over the country, as the > aerospace biggies are. Sooner or later, the inefficiencies inherent to the > big defense contractors make them non-competitive with those unencumbered. > Stand by, watch. Boeing will fail. Musk will probably be the one to eat > their lunch. > Ah, the usual generics. I was hoping you had some evidence to the specific rumor I'd been hearing that they decided that another public test, any time soon, ran a risk of a rapid unscheduled disassembly, coupled with clouds of orange-hot expanding gas where it is not supposed to be, pictures of which might lead some in Congress to decide the program has finally concluded, and reallocate budget to make it so. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sun Aug 15 06:14:08 2021 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 02:14:08 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Why Silicon Valley Cares About Silicon Again Chip shortage gets all eyes in tech back on semiconductors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Taiwan != China btw On Sun, Aug 15, 2021, 12:09 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > "Chips are sexy again, after years of hiding behind the scenes. That's > what NBC's Bay Area journalist Scott Budman says. And tech historian Michael > S. Malone agrees. > > "There's a reason it's called Silicon Valley," says Malone, author of *The > Big Score: The Billion Dollar Story of Silicon Valley*, and about a dozen > other books about Silicon Valley's people and companies. > > "Chips matter," he continued, "because everything flows from that. We get > excited about new products and companies, but they all depend on chips > getting built, and right now they aren't getting built. You can't get a > Ford F150 [truck], the most popular vehicle in U.S., because they can't get > the microprocessor for the engine computer." > > Malone and Budman were speaking as part of the Computer History Museum's > CHM Live > series of virtual events. > > It was a chip crisis > in > the 1980s that helped put Silicon Valley on the map in the first place, > Malone pointed out. > > "The Japanese came rolling in with chips that were better than ours," he > said. "I was at an event where a guy from H-P showed quality charts, > Silicon Valley chips vs. Japanese chips, and [the Japanese chips] were so > much better and cheaper than ours. That's when the battle with Japan put > Silicon Valley on the map as a crucial part of the American economy" > > But then times changed, thanks to the increasing importance of software. > "The Valley had a fundamental shift between hardware and software, between > the electrical engineers and the code writers," Malone said. The customers > changed as well; Silicon Valley companies had been selling to other > manufacturing companies. The new companies targeted consumers, a far > different market. > > "You sold on specs in the hardware era, you sell on manipulation in the > software era," he said. In "the social networking era, the companies are > thinking about how to enlist you in joining their cult. They use tricks > from casinos and everywhere else. They convince us to design our own > products. After all, what is Facebook but a set of tools to make us into > workers?" > > "As long as the money is here, the Valley will regenerate itself." > > As the software and apps piled up, the chips disappeared, hidden away. > "The last time we thought about chips was with the 'Intel Inside' > marketing > campaign," he said. > > But that has suddenly changed. > > Now, Malone said, "it's a dangerous time. Eighty percent of the world's > chips are made in Taiwan, and China has found the choke point of the world > economy?those fabs. There's a scramble to build fabs outside Taiwan, but > that will take two to three years. So it's a very worrisome time right now." > > https://spectrum.ieee.org/silicon-valley-cares-about-chips-again > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sun Aug 15 23:31:39 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 16:31:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Scientists Create Quantum System That Stays Operational 10, 000 Longer In-Reply-To: <007901d79195$76cf4a10$646dde30$@rainier66.com> References: <007901d79195$76cf4a10$646dde30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike wrote: "COOL!" "Thanks John, I wanted something for which I can express some optimism after pooping on Boeing and fusion power." I'm so glad that I found something to ignite your Extropian enthusiasm! : ) On Sat, Aug 14, 2021 at 10:23 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > COOL! > > > > Thanks John, I wanted something for which I can express some optimism > after pooping on Boeing and fusion power. > > > > spike > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *John Grigg via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Sunday, August 15, 2021 12:23 PM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* John Grigg > *Subject:* [ExI] Scientists Create Quantum System That Stays Operational > 10, 000 Longer > > > > "Quantum computers only are useful to us when we know how the states of > electrons relate to each other. > > But getting to a state where this relationship is known ? ?quantum > coherence? ? is extremely difficult and costly. That may soon change thanks > to a new discovery. > > A team of scientists at the University of Chicago have figured out a way > to keep a quantum computer system ?coherent? (or: operational) 10,000 times > longer than before, according to a new study > published > in the journal *Science* on Thursday. > > The scientists claim their solution could be applied to any other kind of > quantum system and could end up revolutionizing the field." > > https://futurism.com/quantum-computer-system-operational > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Aug 15 09:09:41 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 10:09:41 +0100 Subject: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0775cf02-e5f0-8d4e-fd23-62938680e9cb@zaiboc.net> On 14/08/2021 11:09, BillK wrote: > Orwell wrote 1984 and Huxley wrote Brave New World. > Consider who turned out to be more accurate. I don't think it's a competition. They're both bad outcomes, both happening now, both things to be combatted. And there will be more. Ben From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Aug 15 10:49:21 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 11:49:21 +0100 Subject: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55018260-5e46-1091-a18a-4894e683c61f@zaiboc.net> On 15/08/2021 05:50, John Grigg wrote: > BillW wrote: > "My first thought is scientific studies being hampered by government > regulations (though I am ignorant as to what these might be - I seem > to recall that they eased up on stem cell?research)." > > And what about crypto? Scientific studies being hampered by government regulations Regulatory bodies interfering with cryptocurrencies No, I'm thinking about more fundamental things than these. Going back to what BillK said, "Whatever is required to maintain power structures will be applied". Whenever anything appears that threatens to take existing power away from a group that holds it, there will be attempts to suppress, deny, outlaw, demonise, ridicule or distract from, it. This includes all types of power - political, economic, religious, ideological, etc. The above examples are just results of this principle. Tackling them at that individual level won't work. At best, it will result in some crippled version of whatever it is, being tolerated to some degree, until it becomes obsolete and the battle has to be fought all over again for it's successor. Look at home-taping & copying of music for an example. Is the normal consumer any better off, after all the battles over the years, about being able to own, and do what you like with, the music you buy? Things seem to be getting worse instead of better. Farmers can't fix their own broken tractors, musicians are afraid to make music for fear of being sued, you can end up in jail for taking apart your games console.. And don't get me started on books. Remember the painfully ironic episode when Amazon denied access to "1984" on the Kindle? (actually, not just denied access, but forcibly deleted it from anyone who had it). Read 'Unauthorised Bread' by Cory Doctorow, for a depiction of the world we're rapidly heading towards (If you think this is far-fetched, have a look here: https://doctorow.medium.com/unauthorized-cups-2d838f20529, for a real-world example). Sites like 'Defective by Design' (https://www.defectivebydesign.org/) have many examples of things like this, and the only 'progress' we see, is individual problems being superficially solved. Amazon have said they won't delete books from people's Kindles anymore. They haven't said they'll provably remove the ability to do such things from their products. They're simply reacting to bad publicity, doing the least they can get away with, before reverting back to business as usual. Here's a quote from an executive at Disney, from 2005: "If consumers even know there's a DRM, what it is, and how it works, we've already failed." ?Peter Lee, Disney Executive in an interview with The Economist in 2005. This is the attitude that big corporations have towards their customers, it's the same attitude that governments have towards their citizens. We know what happens when you treat symptoms one at a time instead of tackling the underlying cause. I'm not saying I have any answers, I'm saying let's state the fundamental problems, instead of enumerating the myriad results they lead to, like lethal runaway bureaucracy, Digital Restrictions, copyright abuse, mass spying on your own people, etc., etc., etc. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 02:47:29 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 19:47:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Humor: Which would you want for your child? Message-ID: Is skill in IT really that valuable? Lol -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 50 par.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 120571 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 15 12:52:12 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 05:52:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Things going badly for Boeing Starliner, launch delayed indefinitely In-Reply-To: References: <006401d79193$2d4e5f90$87eb1eb0$@rainier66.com> <008001d79196$4b3b2c10$e1b18430$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003601d791d4$5e9757f0$1bc607d0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat >?Ah, the usual generics. I was hoping you had some evidence to the specific rumor I'd been hearing that they decided that another public test, any time soon, ran a risk of a rapid unscheduled disassembly, coupled with clouds of orange-hot expanding gas where it is not supposed to be, pictures of which might lead some in Congress to decide the program has finally concluded, and reallocate budget to make it so. Ja, the usual generics lead to risk of the classic RUDE, and Boeing cannot risk even one of those. It causes too much risk to their other lines of business, specifically the passenger aircraft. The young upstarts are expected to have RUDEs, but Boeing cannot afford even one. It has been clear for a long time that a launch company that specializes in a specific segment of the market can make that specific segment go. Boeing has been given what amounts to government subsidies for their launch business in exchange for spreading their subcontracts everywhere, to every state, to use those funds as a de facto welfare system. Adrian note the contrast with how Elon Musk is doing his launcher business. His subcontractors are all right there in central Florida. The Spacex guys can go on travel to subcontractors by car, get the business done, get back home that evening, get back into the office until quitting time. The majors waste way too much time travelling, too much time on inherent inefficiencies associated with that, then they build designs that are too traditional because they use safety margins dictated to them by external influences such as military specs. Meanwhile, Musk is landing boosters on their feet with dignity, the way the controls decades have wanted to do it for decades. You hit it right on with that notion that Boeing cannot risk a RUDE. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 15 12:53:50 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 05:53:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Why Silicon Valley Cares About Silicon Again Chip shortage gets all eyes in tech back on semiconductors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003d01d791d4$98945070$c9bcf150$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Why Silicon Valley Cares About Silicon Again Chip shortage gets all eyes in tech back on semiconductors >?Taiwan != China btw Not yet it isn?t. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 15 13:00:07 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 06:00:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Scientists Create Quantum System That Stays Operational 10, 000 Longer In-Reply-To: References: <007901d79195$76cf4a10$646dde30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004c01d791d5$79d2d200$6d787600$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Grigg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Scientists Create Quantum System That Stays Operational 10, 000 Longer Spike wrote: "COOL!" >>?"Thanks John, I wanted something for which I can express some optimism after pooping on Boeing and fusion power." >?I'm so glad that I found something to ignite your Extropian enthusiasm! : ) In both the above cases I went on fundamentals and worked forward. Boeing cannot afford even one spectacular failure, because it makes its living building passenger planes. Fusion frees neutrons, which degrade everything they touch. They are neutral, so there is no way to contain them long enough in the free state, hoping they will decay to a proton and an electron. There is nothing wrong with my enthusiasm or my inherent optimism, do let me assure you. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 04:15:36 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 21:15:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Scientists Create Quantum System That Stays Operational 10, 000 Longer In-Reply-To: <004c01d791d5$79d2d200$6d787600$@rainier66.com> References: <007901d79195$76cf4a10$646dde30$@rainier66.com> <004c01d791d5$79d2d200$6d787600$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, how does the nature of your enthusiasm compare to that of your son? I'm just curious... John On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 6:07 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *John Grigg via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Scientists Create Quantum System That Stays > Operational 10, 000 Longer > > > > Spike wrote: > > "COOL!" > > > > >>?"Thanks John, I wanted something for which I can express some optimism > after pooping on Boeing and fusion power." > > > > >?I'm so glad that I found something to ignite your Extropian enthusiasm! > : ) > > > > > > In both the above cases I went on fundamentals and worked forward. Boeing > cannot afford even one spectacular failure, because it makes its living > building passenger planes. Fusion frees neutrons, which degrade everything > they touch. They are neutral, so there is no way to contain them long > enough in the free state, hoping they will decay to a proton and an > electron. > > > > There is nothing wrong with my enthusiasm or my inherent optimism, do let > me assure you. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 15 13:47:26 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 06:47:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Scientists Create Quantum System That Stays Operational 10, 000 Longer In-Reply-To: References: <007901d79195$76cf4a10$646dde30$@rainier66.com> <004c01d791d5$79d2d200$6d787600$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <000a01d791dc$161d4a90$4257dfb0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Grigg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Scientists Create Quantum System That Stays Operational 10, 000 Longer >?Spike, how does the nature of your enthusiasm compare to that of your son? I'm just curious... John I am Tigger. My bride is Eeyore. Our son is halfway between, if you can imagine it. He started 10th grade Thursday. The honors literature class is covering Lord of the Flies and Nineteen Eighty Four in the fall semester. Both of these books were banished by the literature crowd for several years. Both are back and standing tall. There is hope for this world. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Aug 15 15:04:53 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 08:04:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Things going badly for Boeing Starliner, launch delayed indefinitely In-Reply-To: <003601d791d4$5e9757f0$1bc607d0$@rainier66.com> References: <006401d79193$2d4e5f90$87eb1eb0$@rainier66.com> <008001d79196$4b3b2c10$e1b18430$@rainier66.com> <003601d791d4$5e9757f0$1bc607d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 15, 2021, 5:54 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Adrian note the contrast with how Elon Musk is doing his launcher business. > You do recall why you need not tell me this, yes? ;) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Aug 15 15:14:47 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 08:14:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Scientists Create Quantum System That Stays Operational 10, 000 Longer In-Reply-To: <004c01d791d5$79d2d200$6d787600$@rainier66.com> References: <007901d79195$76cf4a10$646dde30$@rainier66.com> <004c01d791d5$79d2d200$6d787600$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 15, 2021, 6:06 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Boeing cannot afford even one spectacular failure, because it makes its > living building passenger planes. > The reason is more fundamental. Its rocket program depends on government subsidies, which depend on Congress thinking that development is still ongoing. One large explosion might cause Congress to think that the thing that was being developed is now destroyed, so there is nothing to put more money toward. (This ignores that more units can be built and probably have been built, as their impressions do.) > Fusion frees neutrons, which degrade everything they touch. They are > neutral, so there is no way to contain them long enough in the free state, > hoping they will decay to a proton and an electron. > There exists aneutronic fusion. It requires higher temperatures and specific fuels, making it harder to do, but it exists. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 15 15:55:24 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 08:55:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Things going badly for Boeing Starliner, launch delayed indefinitely In-Reply-To: References: <006401d79193$2d4e5f90$87eb1eb0$@rainier66.com> <008001d79196$4b3b2c10$e1b18430$@rainier66.com> <003601d791d4$5e9757f0$1bc607d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005801d791ed$f6f66ae0$e4e340a0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Things going badly for Boeing Starliner, launch delayed indefinitely On Sun, Aug 15, 2021, 5:54 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: Adrian note the contrast with how Elon Musk is doing his launcher business. >?You do recall why you need not tell me this, yes? ;) Ja. The rest of our list is free to inquire of either of us. 8^) Spacex and CubeCab shoulda happened 30 yrs ago. There is no way a business can be competitive if it has its primary customer demanding that it hire this many Ls, this many Bs, this many Gs, this many Ts, this many of this gender, this many of that flavor, located in these states, all of them unionized, etc. A business must be able to hire the best people in the discipline in which it competes, regardless of other considerations. Who one sleeps with is not a job qualification. Eventually Spacex will eat Boeing?s lunch, and hungry upstarts such as CubeCab will eat Boeing?s dessert. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hibbard at wisc.edu Sun Aug 15 17:10:42 2021 From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 17:10:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] The most important personal computers in history, ranked Message-ID: <4fc97bca-f387-beb5-2764-3a2259599e54@wisc.edu> > Forty years ago this week, the iconic IBM PC made its debut, . . . > https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/most-important-personal-computers-in-history/ That brings back memories. In 1981 I was part of a small company, named Davis Hibbard Mayer Norton and Phillips Inc, that developed a product based on the IBM PC to simulate GOES weather satellite signals. Davis and Norton engineered a custom circuit board that went into the IBM PC and I wrote the software. The GOES signal was about 1.8 MHz which we simulated on the PC's 4.77 MHz 8088, an 8-bit processor. It was a tricky design problem. We ended up selling ten of our simulators to organizations that wanted a way to test their GOES receiving systems. From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 15 17:50:19 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 10:50:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The most important personal computers in history, ranked In-Reply-To: <4fc97bca-f387-beb5-2764-3a2259599e54@wisc.edu> References: <4fc97bca-f387-beb5-2764-3a2259599e54@wisc.edu> Message-ID: <002601d791fe$03e32ee0$0ba98ca0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Bill Hibbard via extropy-chat Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2021 10:11 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: Bill Hibbard Subject: Re: [ExI] The most important personal computers in history, ranked > Forty years ago this week, the iconic IBM PC made its debut, . . . > https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/most-important-personal-comput > ers-in-history/ >...That brings back memories. In 1981 I was part of a small company, named Davis Hibbard Mayer Norton and Phillips Inc, that developed a product based on the IBM PC to simulate GOES weather satellite signals. Davis and Norton engineered a custom circuit board that went into the IBM PC and I wrote the software. The GOES signal was about 1.8 MHz which we simulated on the PC's 4.77 MHz 8088, an 8-bit processor. It was a tricky design problem. We ended up selling ten of our simulators to organizations that wanted a way to test their GOES receiving systems. _______________________________________________ Cool! Long time ago but also long after 1981, I did some controls support work for the follow-on to GOES. I remember that program: it was a troubled but friendly enough office environment. Turns out that particular GOES-Next design never closed, but it wasn't a controls problem that spanked us, it was a sensors group that was a bit too ambitious beyond the technology of the time (this was about 2002.) But regarding the IMB PC, this event brings back mixed emotions for a lot of us. I was a hardcore math geek and had gone into the specialized and new-ish discipline of figuring out math problems by letting a computer calculate a jillion calculations, finding the pattern with the eye and intuition, guess at the end result formula, then after the fact create a derivation, hide the computer, dress up weird and go act like a bigshot mathematician who discovered the new finding the honest way. They caught me of course. I was socially awkward, but I just couldn't compete with real mathematicians in social awkwardness, regardless of how hard I faked extreme geekiness. But we had fun with it. I was using Apple 2 computers the university had bought to do my trick-math, but soon found severe limitations from that M6502 slightly overclocked to a mighty 1.2 MEGA HERTZ! Oh mercy, 1.2 MHz, we shall rule the world, ja? But then we heard, the mighty IBM was coming, and it was going to EAT APPLE's LUNCH, a phrase commonly tossed about in the geek community until we recognized the redundancy, after which it was shortened to IMB was going to EAT APPLES. This brought my much personal satisfaction, for Apple was developed by... hippies. Long hair, beards, dope, the works. Oh mercy. But IMB was staffed by serious engineers dontchaknow, in white shirts, skinny ties, pens in the pocket, everything one needs to design a real computer. OK then. A professor ordered one, and we planned a big unveiling party at his house. He urged us geeks to write up some benchmarks. I wrote some Lucas Lehmer benchmarks, ran them on the Apples, collected some data, came over to the professor's house, ran them. Oh dear. The nerds in white shirts let me down. That mighty Intel 8088 running at aaaaalll thoooose megahertz, was only a little faster than the hipster Apple, which cost less than half as much. Dang. Establishment 0, hippies 1. I didn't like hippies but if they produce a product with better value, they win. They won, IBM let us down. With aaaalllll thooooose resources and alllll those guys in white shirts and pocket protectors, they aughta be able to do way better than something the hippies already had on the market for three years. They did just enough better to have slightly higher numbers, which wasn't good enough for what I was doing. Fun aside: the research I was doing could be split to run two calculation threads simultaneously, or really arbitrarily many simultaneous threads. It was way better to run two Apples in parallel than to have one IBM PC which cost more than the two Apples combined. The hippies won that round. Speaking of round, I live within a few miles of the Great Donut, the Mothership. A good friend happened to own a house within walking distance of that toroidal monstrosity. His home value alone went up so much in 33 years that he can retire comfortably anytime he wants. spike From atymes at gmail.com Sun Aug 15 20:37:15 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 13:37:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Humor: Which would you want for your child? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's like doctors or lawyers: you can make good money, which your parents hope you will spend on them once they retire. On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 4:46 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Is skill in IT really that valuable? Lol > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Aug 15 20:45:14 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 13:45:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms In-Reply-To: <55018260-5e46-1091-a18a-4894e683c61f@zaiboc.net> References: <55018260-5e46-1091-a18a-4894e683c61f@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 3:51 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Things seem to be getting worse instead of better. Farmers can't fix their > own broken tractors, musicians are afraid to make music for fear of being > sued, you can end up in jail for taking apart your games console.. > For what it's worth, there are legislative efforts to fix the first of those (look up "right to repair"), and the last is apparently no longer a thing if it ever was. As to musicians - only very certain specifics of music; bands are making music every day all across the USA with no fear of the courtroom. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Aug 15 21:20:31 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 16:20:31 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The most important personal computers in history, ranked In-Reply-To: <002601d791fe$03e32ee0$0ba98ca0$@rainier66.com> References: <4fc97bca-f387-beb5-2764-3a2259599e54@wisc.edu> <002601d791fe$03e32ee0$0ba98ca0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The way I heard it was at IBM: you could wear any color shirt you wanted as long as it was white or blue. Buttoned down of course. But the people who never met the public, i.e. the techs, could have long hair, wear jeans, etc. The guys in the white shirts designed nothing except marketing strategies. The hippies did the tech work. bill w On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 12:52 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of > Bill Hibbard via extropy-chat > Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2021 10:11 AM > To: ExI chat list > Cc: Bill Hibbard > Subject: Re: [ExI] The most important personal computers in history, ranked > > > Forty years ago this week, the iconic IBM PC made its debut, . . . > > https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/most-important-personal-comput > > ers-in-history/ > > >...That brings back memories. In 1981 I was part of a small company, named > Davis Hibbard Mayer Norton and Phillips Inc, that developed a product based > on the IBM PC to simulate GOES weather satellite signals. Davis and Norton > engineered a custom circuit board that went into the IBM PC and I wrote the > software. The GOES signal was about 1.8 MHz which we simulated on the PC's > 4.77 MHz 8088, an 8-bit processor. It was a tricky design problem. We ended > up selling ten of our simulators to organizations that wanted a way to test > their GOES receiving systems. > _______________________________________________ > > > > Cool! > > Long time ago but also long after 1981, I did some controls support work > for > the follow-on to GOES. I remember that program: it was a troubled but > friendly enough office environment. Turns out that particular GOES-Next > design never closed, but it wasn't a controls problem that spanked us, it > was a sensors group that was a bit too ambitious beyond the technology of > the time (this was about 2002.) > > But regarding the IMB PC, this event brings back mixed emotions for a lot > of > us. I was a hardcore math geek and had gone into the specialized and > new-ish discipline of figuring out math problems by letting a computer > calculate a jillion calculations, finding the pattern with the eye and > intuition, guess at the end result formula, then after the fact create a > derivation, hide the computer, dress up weird and go act like a bigshot > mathematician who discovered the new finding the honest way. > > They caught me of course. I was socially awkward, but I just couldn't > compete with real mathematicians in social awkwardness, regardless of how > hard I faked extreme geekiness. > > But we had fun with it. I was using Apple 2 computers the university had > bought to do my trick-math, but soon found severe limitations from that > M6502 slightly overclocked to a mighty 1.2 MEGA HERTZ! Oh mercy, 1.2 MHz, > we shall rule the world, ja? But then we heard, the mighty IBM was coming, > and it was going to EAT APPLE's LUNCH, a phrase commonly tossed about in > the > geek community until we recognized the redundancy, after which it was > shortened to IMB was going to EAT APPLES. This brought my much personal > satisfaction, for Apple was developed by... hippies. Long hair, beards, > dope, the works. Oh mercy. But IMB was staffed by serious engineers > dontchaknow, in white shirts, skinny ties, pens in the pocket, everything > one needs to design a real computer. > > OK then. > > A professor ordered one, and we planned a big unveiling party at his house. > He urged us geeks to write up some benchmarks. I wrote some Lucas Lehmer > benchmarks, ran them on the Apples, collected some data, came over to the > professor's house, ran them. Oh dear. The nerds in white shirts let me > down. That mighty Intel 8088 running at aaaaalll thoooose megahertz, was > only a little faster than the hipster Apple, which cost less than half as > much. Dang. Establishment 0, hippies 1. I didn't like hippies but if > they > produce a product with better value, they win. They won, IBM let us down. > With aaaalllll thooooose resources and alllll those guys in white shirts > and > pocket protectors, they aughta be able to do way better than something the > hippies already had on the market for three years. They did just enough > better to have slightly higher numbers, which wasn't good enough for what I > was doing. > > Fun aside: the research I was doing could be split to run two calculation > threads simultaneously, or really arbitrarily many simultaneous threads. > It > was way better to run two Apples in parallel than to have one IBM PC which > cost more than the two Apples combined. The hippies won that round. > Speaking of round, I live within a few miles of the Great Donut, the > Mothership. A good friend happened to own a house within walking distance > of that toroidal monstrosity. His home value alone went up so much in 33 > years that he can retire comfortably anytime he wants. > > spike > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Aug 15 21:25:35 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 16:25:35 -0500 Subject: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms In-Reply-To: References: <55018260-5e46-1091-a18a-4894e683c61f@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Honest as the day is long: me. Mr. Morality. Now when all this computer stuff really got going, and you could download music and not pay for it, it ruffled my feathers: the musicians were being cheated. This was wrong (and is still wrong). I discussed this with some of my classes, and they could seem to find no moral problem here: if they could do it, they did it - a full apple tree with no farmer around - whatta ya expect? I am still disappointed in those students robbing the people who were giving them so much pleasure. It did teach me more than I knew at the time about people. bill w On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 3:47 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 3:51 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Things seem to be getting worse instead of better. Farmers can't fix >> their own broken tractors, musicians are afraid to make music for fear of >> being sued, you can end up in jail for taking apart your games console.. >> > > For what it's worth, there are legislative efforts to fix the first of > those (look up "right to repair"), and the last is apparently no longer a > thing if it ever was. As to musicians - only very certain specifics of > music; bands are making music every day all across the USA with no fear of > the courtroom. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Sun Aug 15 23:43:20 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 16:43:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms In-Reply-To: References: <55018260-5e46-1091-a18a-4894e683c61f@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <81bb275e-fe60-9fc2-853c-3064ec5b2172@pobox.com> On 2021-8-15 14:25, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > Honest as the day is long:? me.? Mr. Morality.? Now when all this > computer stuff really got going, and you could download music and not > pay for it, it ruffled my feathers:? the musicians were being cheated. > This was wrong (and is still wrong).? I discussed this with some of my > classes, and they could seem to find no moral problem here:? if they > could do?it, they did it - a full apple tree with no farmer around - > whatta ya expect?? I am still disappointed in those students robbing the > people who were giving them so much pleasure.? It did teach me more than > I knew at the time about people.? bill w Possibly they rationalized that most of the money does not go to the artists anyway, and that by chipping away at entrenched publishers they were hastening the day when artists get a better deal. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 00:47:11 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 17:47:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Farewell, Steve Perrin, SCA co-founder and creator of RuneQuest Message-ID: "On Friday, roleplaying game publishers, Chaosium, posted the sad news that tabletop roleplaying game designer, Steve Perrin, had left this earthly plane. He was 75 years old. Steve was one of the true pioneers of roleplaying games. He was the creator of the iconic *RuneQuest* and contributed to *Call of the Cthulhu*. He also created *Worlds of Wonder*, *Superworld*, the *Stormbringer* and *Elfquest* RPGs, and contributed to *Thieves' World* and other Chaosium titles. On top of all of that, Steve is also remembered as a co-founder of the Medieval living history organization, the Society for Creative Anachronism (SCA)." "When the world of roleplaying games was still waiting to be born, you and your closest friends conjured up the Society for Creation Anachronism (SCA) from the realms of your collective imagination. Bump, bump, bump down the stairs, indeed. Shortly thereafter Steve and his wife Luise joined the fledging Chaosium as it spread its draconic wings in the mid-1970s with *White Bear & Red Moon*, and a little known RPG called *RuneQuest*, born on the 4th of July in 1976. When the world of roleplaying games was still waiting to be born, you and your closest friends conjured up the Society for Creation Anachronism (SCA) from the realms of your collective imagination. Bump, bump, bump down the stairs, indeed. Shortly thereafter Steve and his wife Luise joined the fledging Chaosium as it spread its draconic wings in the mid-1970s with *White Bear & Red Moon*, and a little known RPG called *RuneQuest*, born on the 4th of July in 1976. Steve's canny understanding of gaming mechanics and Luise's artistic vision helped forge an iconic game still played around the world today. But a few hours ago we learned that Steve was taken from us, even as he worried that his beloved Luise's health situation was more dire than his. He was a loving and devoted partner to the end." https://boingboing.net/2021/08/15/farewell-steve-perrin-sca-co-founder-and-creator-of-runequest.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 00:52:19 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 17:52:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Man makes silicon chips in his garage fab Message-ID: This is so cool! I wonder how far he can go... "Sam Zeloof explains his homemade silicon chip fab process. The chips he makes are more powerful than Intel models from the 1960s, and he's leaving Moore's Law in the dust." https://boingboing.net/2021/08/14/man-makes-silicon-chips-in-his-garage-fab.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 01:20:48 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 18:20:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] News: Didn't this also happen back in 1973? Message-ID: Taliban enters Kabul, Afghan president flees, surrender negotiations underway I just don't get the big overnight pull-out. And supposedly there is a trillion dollar deposit of rare earths in Afghanistan, which I thought was the actual reason for the U.S. having troops there. And now apparently China will be moving in forces and rebuilding the country for the Taliban? Lol It just gets stranger and stranger... I wonder if some backroom deal was cut with China. But if so, what did the U.S. get in return? https://boingboing.net/2021/08/15/taliban-enter-kabul-afghan-president-flees-surrender-negotiations-underway.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 02:38:16 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 19:38:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] What science fiction have you read, lately? Message-ID: I am currently half way through "Circe," by Madeline Miller, which is excellent (though fantasy). Perusing the link, I realized that I need to catch up on my Neal Asher reading. I want to become immortal to have any chance of catching up on all of the books I intend to read, but have not quite yet done so... https://www.panmacmillan.com/blogs/science-fiction-and-fantasy/best-new-science-fiction-books -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 13:57:17 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 08:57:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms In-Reply-To: <81bb275e-fe60-9fc2-853c-3064ec5b2172@pobox.com> References: <55018260-5e46-1091-a18a-4894e683c61f@zaiboc.net> <81bb275e-fe60-9fc2-853c-3064ec5b2172@pobox.com> Message-ID: Possibly they rationalized that most of the money does not go to the artists anyway, and that by chipping away at entrenched publishers they were hastening the day when artists get a better deal. *\\* Anton Sherwood *This, in an odd way, reminds me of throwing the baby out with the bath water. Let's get rid of the bad guys, but hurt the good guys at the same time. bill w* On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 7:57 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2021-8-15 14:25, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Honest as the day is long: me. Mr. Morality. Now when all this > > computer stuff really got going, and you could download music and not > > pay for it, it ruffled my feathers: the musicians were being cheated. > > This was wrong (and is still wrong). I discussed this with some of my > > classes, and they could seem to find no moral problem here: if they > > could do it, they did it - a full apple tree with no farmer around - > > whatta ya expect? I am still disappointed in those students robbing the > > people who were giving them so much pleasure. It did teach me more than > > I knew at the time about people. bill w > > Possibly they rationalized that most of the money does not go to the > artists anyway, and that by chipping away at entrenched publishers they > were hastening the day when artists get a better deal. > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 14:41:25 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 07:41:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] What science fiction have you read, lately? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 16, 2021, 4:36 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I want to become immortal to have any chance of catching up on all of the > books I intend to read, but have not quite yet done so... > And in the time it takes you to read all that, more worth-reading books will be written. The cycle does not end so long as civilization yet marches on. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 16 14:17:43 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 07:17:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms In-Reply-To: References: <55018260-5e46-1091-a18a-4894e683c61f@zaiboc.net> <81bb275e-fe60-9fc2-853c-3064ec5b2172@pobox.com> Message-ID: <007901d792a9$7cd633a0$76829ae0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms Possibly they rationalized that most of the money does not go to the artists anyway, and that by chipping away at entrenched publishers they were hastening the day when artists get a better deal. *\\* Anton Sherwood This, in an odd way, reminds me of throwing the baby out with the bath water. Let's get rid of the bad guys, but hurt the good guys at the same time. bill w We can see the likely result of widespread file copying: the rise and continued popularity of rap. The other popular genres generally require a band or group of talented musicians working together. The overhead is enormous. Rap requires only one person. Background sounds are public domain. There are few or no musical instruments required. If music is freely downloaded, we need music that is very nearly free to create. Rap is free. Piracy gave us rap. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 14:42:46 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 07:42:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms In-Reply-To: References: <55018260-5e46-1091-a18a-4894e683c61f@zaiboc.net> <81bb275e-fe60-9fc2-853c-3064ec5b2172@pobox.com> Message-ID: The authors usually get such a tiny cut, sometimes literally nothing, that there's not much baby to throw out. On Mon, Aug 16, 2021, 6:59 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Possibly they rationalized that most of the money does not go to the > artists anyway, and that by chipping away at entrenched publishers they were > hastening the day when artists get a better deal. > *\\* Anton Sherwood > *This, in an odd way, reminds me of throwing the baby out with the bath > water. Let's get rid of the bad guys, but hurt the good guys at the same > time. bill w* > > On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 7:57 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On 2021-8-15 14:25, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >> > Honest as the day is long: me. Mr. Morality. Now when all this >> > computer stuff really got going, and you could download music and not >> > pay for it, it ruffled my feathers: the musicians were being cheated. >> > This was wrong (and is still wrong). I discussed this with some of my >> > classes, and they could seem to find no moral problem here: if they >> > could do it, they did it - a full apple tree with no farmer around - >> > whatta ya expect? I am still disappointed in those students robbing >> the >> > people who were giving them so much pleasure. It did teach me more >> than >> > I knew at the time about people. bill w >> >> Possibly they rationalized that most of the money does not go to the >> artists anyway, and that by chipping away at entrenched publishers they >> were hastening the day when artists get a better deal. >> >> -- >> *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 15:23:12 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 11:23:12 -0400 Subject: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms In-Reply-To: References: <55018260-5e46-1091-a18a-4894e683c61f@zaiboc.net> <81bb275e-fe60-9fc2-853c-3064ec5b2172@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 16, 2021 at 10:55 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The authors usually get such a tiny cut, sometimes literally nothing, that > there's not much baby to throw out. > Yeah...you have to wonder why artists keep agreeing to such horrible terms. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 15:59:23 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 08:59:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms In-Reply-To: References: <55018260-5e46-1091-a18a-4894e683c61f@zaiboc.net> <81bb275e-fe60-9fc2-853c-3064ec5b2172@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 16, 2021 at 8:23 AM Dave Sill wrote: > On Mon, Aug 16, 2021 at 10:55 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> The authors usually get such a tiny cut, sometimes literally nothing, >> that there's not much baby to throw out. >> > > Yeah...you have to wonder why artists keep agreeing to such horrible terms. > Because they think they have no other choice. Also they're paying for marketing. 1% of $1,000,000 is better than 100% of $100. This work, or at least the initial part, has generally already been done by the time the pirate hears of the band. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 16:03:40 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 09:03:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] News: Didn't this also happen back in 1973? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 16, 2021 at 3:19 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I wonder if some backroom deal was cut with China. But if so, what did the > U.S. get in return? > An excuse to stop spending money fighting that war, so we'd be less in danger of defaulting on our debt to China. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Mon Aug 16 19:10:22 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 12:10:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Farewell, Steve Perrin, SCA co-founder and creator of RuneQuest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6b9b4aa4-12b2-b2ae-2100-3ccf95ec935e@pobox.com> > On top of all of that, Steve is also remembered as a co-founder of the > Medieval living history organization, the Society for Creative > Anachronism (SCA). Has any report mentioned his anachronym? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From lostmyelectron at protonmail.com Mon Aug 16 19:27:36 2021 From: lostmyelectron at protonmail.com (Gabe Waggoner) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 19:27:36 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Farewell, Steve Perrin, SCA co-founder and creator of RuneQuest In-Reply-To: <6b9b4aa4-12b2-b2ae-2100-3ccf95ec935e@pobox.com> References: <6b9b4aa4-12b2-b2ae-2100-3ccf95ec935e@pobox.com> Message-ID: ??????? Original Message ??????? On Monday, August 16th, 2021 at 7:10 PM, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat wrote: > > On top of all of that, Steve is also remembered as a co-founder of the > > > > Medieval living history organization, the Society for Creative > > > > Anachronism (SCA). > > Has any report mentioned his anachronym? > > ------------------------------------------- > I read _3001: The Final Odyssey_ when I was a kid and wrongly assumed the organization was something Clarke had invented. Good to know it's real. From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 19:32:57 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 14:32:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] the law Message-ID: I am certainly no legal theorist, but (it's always 'but' with me, isn't it?) here's an assumption: Most, maybe all laws, are based on this: do no harm to people or property. So a law is passed: cars must come to a complete halt at a Stop sign. Example: in the middle of the night I arrived at an intersection on a highway. Utterly no traffic. I arrived, looked both ways, put the car in 1st gear (my transmission allowed that) and went through the Stop sign at maybe two miles per hour. Blue lights!!! Pulled over. I argued that I had obeyed the spirit of the law in that my action did not pose any harm to any person, including myself or property. Technically I ran the Stop sign. Should I get a ticket inasmuch as I did not obey the law, or should I be let off as doing something completely harmless? Result: I got a warning. (A friend ten minutes behind me, got a ticket. He was furious when he found out that I didn't. Upon relating our stories it was clear that he verbally abused the patrolman whereas I said 'Sir' frequently and never contradicted him (maybe this made a difference to him because he was Black, but we don't know that.)) But which side do you come down on: ticket or no ticket? Another way of phrasing this, which I think is equivalent: how much latitude, if any, do you give the police? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 16 20:42:59 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 13:42:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] the law In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002501d792df$4d396b90$e7ac42b0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat ? >?Result: I got a warning. (A friend ten minutes behind me, got a ticket. He was furious when he found out that I didn't. Upon relating our stories it was clear that he verbally abused the patrolman whereas I said 'Sir' frequently and never contradicted him (maybe this made a difference to him because he was Black, but we don't know that.)) But which side do you come down on: ticket or no ticket? Another way of phrasing this, which I think is equivalent: how much latitude, if any, do you give the police? bill w For you and me, getting pulled over is embarrassing, expensive, possibly dangerous. For cops, pulling people over is another day at the office. Think of it this way: in what other daily transaction do you ever abuse anyone? Never. Regardless of whether you are satisfied with their performance, you are a gentleman and act accordingly. No one deserves to be abused at the office, no one deserves to have their lives at risk, for they too have families and responsibilities. Cops are people, with a job to do. So? extend them the same courtesy and respect you would anyone else doing a job. If it gets you out of a ticket, well good for you. If it doesn?t, eh, treat it as a tax, pay it, move on. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 16 20:42:59 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 13:42:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] the law In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002501d792df$4d396b90$e7ac42b0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat ? >?Result: I got a warning. (A friend ten minutes behind me, got a ticket. He was furious when he found out that I didn't. Upon relating our stories it was clear that he verbally abused the patrolman whereas I said 'Sir' frequently and never contradicted him (maybe this made a difference to him because he was Black, but we don't know that.)) But which side do you come down on: ticket or no ticket? Another way of phrasing this, which I think is equivalent: how much latitude, if any, do you give the police? bill w For you and me, getting pulled over is embarrassing, expensive, possibly dangerous. For cops, pulling people over is another day at the office. Think of it this way: in what other daily transaction do you ever abuse anyone? Never. Regardless of whether you are satisfied with their performance, you are a gentleman and act accordingly. No one deserves to be abused at the office, no one deserves to have their lives at risk, for they too have families and responsibilities. Cops are people, with a job to do. So? extend them the same courtesy and respect you would anyone else doing a job. If it gets you out of a ticket, well good for you. If it doesn?t, eh, treat it as a tax, pay it, move on. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 21:10:58 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 16:10:58 -0500 Subject: [ExI] the law In-Reply-To: <002501d792df$4d396b90$e7ac42b0$@rainier66.com> References: <002501d792df$4d396b90$e7ac42b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I would have not objected to getting a ticket, but you sidestepped the issue: how much leeway should cops on the job have? In my case, a possibility was 'no harm, no foul', just like refs in basketball when someone runs over an opposition player and no foul is called because it did not affect the play and hurt no one. bill On Mon, Aug 16, 2021 at 3:45 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *?* > > > > >?Result: I got a warning. (A friend ten minutes behind me, got a > ticket. He was furious when he found out that I didn't. Upon relating our > stories it was clear that he verbally abused the patrolman whereas I said > 'Sir' frequently and never contradicted him (maybe this made a difference > to him because he was Black, but we don't know that.)) But which side do > you come down on: ticket or no ticket? Another way of phrasing this, > which I think is equivalent: how much latitude, if any, do you give the > police? bill w > > > > > > For you and me, getting pulled over is embarrassing, expensive, possibly > dangerous. For cops, pulling people over is another day at the office. > Think of it this way: in what other daily transaction do you ever abuse > anyone? Never. Regardless of whether you are satisfied with their > performance, you are a gentleman and act accordingly. No one deserves to > be abused at the office, no one deserves to have their lives at risk, for > they too have families and responsibilities. Cops are people, with a job > to do. So? extend them the same courtesy and respect you would anyone else > doing a job. > > > > If it gets you out of a ticket, well good for you. If it doesn?t, eh, > treat it as a tax, pay it, move on. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 22:19:23 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 17:19:23 -0500 Subject: [ExI] quote of the day Message-ID: 'A reasonable person thinks that all of his beliefs are right and that some of them are wrong.' bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 16 22:46:06 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 15:46:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] the law In-Reply-To: References: <002501d792df$4d396b90$e7ac42b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002301d792f0$803df770$80b9e650$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] the law >?I would have not objected to getting a ticket, but you sidestepped the issue: how much leeway should cops on the job have? In my case, a possibility was 'no harm, no foul', just like refs in basketball when someone runs over an opposition player and no foul is called because it did not affect the play and hurt no one. Billw Ah ok, plenty of leeway. A cop uses his judgment every day. For years I have ridden a bicycle on the sidewalk in some places if it doesn?t have a good shoulder. The cops see me doing it, we all know it is plenty illegal but they let it go. I have never been stopped for that. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 23:16:00 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 16:16:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] the law In-Reply-To: <002301d792f0$803df770$80b9e650$@rainier66.com> References: <002501d792df$4d396b90$e7ac42b0$@rainier66.com> <002301d792f0$803df770$80b9e650$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 16, 2021 at 3:47 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > For years I have ridden a bicycle on the sidewalk in some places if it > doesn?t have a good shoulder. The cops see me doing it, we all know it is > plenty illegal but they let it go. I have never been stopped for that. > Actually, depending on where you were, it might have been legal - especially if there was no bike lane (which there probably wasn't if there was no good shoulder). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 23:36:16 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2021 00:36:16 +0100 Subject: [ExI] the law In-Reply-To: <002301d792f0$803df770$80b9e650$@rainier66.com> References: <002501d792df$4d396b90$e7ac42b0$@rainier66.com> <002301d792f0$803df770$80b9e650$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Aug 2021 at 23:48, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > Ah ok, plenty of leeway. A cop uses his judgment every day. For years I have ridden a bicycle on the sidewalk in some places if it doesn?t have a good shoulder. The cops see me doing it, we all know it is plenty illegal but they let it go. I have never been stopped for that. > > spike > _______________________________________________ In the UK an increasing number of traffic offences are being automated using surveillance cameras connected to central computers that use number plate recognition to put a penalty notice letter in the post. Speeding, parking, bus lane violations, red light jumping, unpaid tolls, etc. If a town wants to raise a bit more cash, just install a few more cameras. These cameras usually catch more strangers rather than locals, so driving outside your local area can get expensive very quickly. BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 00:01:44 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 19:01:44 -0500 Subject: [ExI] the law In-Reply-To: <002301d792f0$803df770$80b9e650$@rainier66.com> References: <002501d792df$4d396b90$e7ac42b0$@rainier66.com> <002301d792f0$803df770$80b9e650$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I have been through numerous radar traps on the interstate. My speed is 77 controlled by cruise control. I have never been stopped. bill w On Mon, Aug 16, 2021 at 5:47 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] the law > > > > >?I would have not objected to getting a ticket, but you sidestepped the > issue: how much leeway should cops on the job have? In my case, a > possibility was 'no harm, no foul', just like refs in basketball when > someone runs over an opposition player and no foul is called because it did > not affect the play and hurt no one. Billw > > > > > > Ah ok, plenty of leeway. A cop uses his judgment every day. For years I > have ridden a bicycle on the sidewalk in some places if it doesn?t have a > good shoulder. The cops see me doing it, we all know it is plenty illegal > but they let it go. I have never been stopped for that. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 00:38:21 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 17:38:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] the law In-Reply-To: References: <002501d792df$4d396b90$e7ac42b0$@rainier66.com> <002301d792f0$803df770$80b9e650$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 16, 2021 at 4:38 PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > In the UK an increasing number of traffic offences are being automated > using surveillance cameras connected to central computers that use > number plate recognition to put a penalty notice letter in the post. > Speeding, parking, bus lane violations, red light jumping, unpaid tolls, > etc. > If a town wants to raise a bit more cash, just install a few more > cameras. These cameras usually catch more strangers rather than > locals, so driving outside your local area can get expensive very > quickly. > The exact same thing is happening in the US, too. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the same vendors are using the same equipment, and same sales pitches, in some cases. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Tue Aug 17 03:38:02 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 20:38:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] What science fiction have you read, lately? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <28a8ce80-b286-97fc-831f-e0b750b2a445@pobox.com> Most recent fiction reading: the Long Earth saga by Pratchett & Baxter. It begins in the near future when an eccentric engineer anonymously publishes plans for a "Stepper Box", simple enough for anyone to build and carry; it takes the bearer to one of two parallel worlds, adjacent in a chain of (at least) hundreds of millions, most of them effectively empty of hominids. It soon emerges that a minority of humans have the innate ability to Step. In one episode, an ancestor of the central character uses the talent to help the Underground Railroad -- and I thought, what if instead of sending the escapees to Canada you leave them in a side world? They'd have to learn to live Paleolithic-style, but that's an easier life than farming. (And anyone who interferes with the liberation, you can dump on the other side.) -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 06:43:22 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2021 23:43:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Aurora_Propulsion_Technologies_will_be_sending_u?= =?utf-8?q?p_space_junk_removal_tech_on_Rocket_Lab=E2=80=99s_Electr?= =?utf-8?q?on_later_this_year?= Message-ID: "Aurora Propulsion Technologies, a Finnish company that develops thrusters and de-orbiting modules for small satellites, will be sending its technology to space for the first time. The company has signed on with Rocket Lab to send its inaugural AuroraSat-1 cubesat into low Earth orbit aboard an Electron rocket rideshare mission in the fourth quarter of this year. Aurora is part of a small number of startups that have emerged over the past few years whose technology could help solve a tricky problem that, for most of us, can be summed up as ?out of sight, out of mind?: space junk." https://techcrunch.com/2021/08/17/aurora-propulsion-technologies-will-be-sending-up-space-junk-removal-tech-on-rocket-labs-electron-later-this-year/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 06:48:27 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2021 23:48:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Twitter_taps_crypto_developer_to_lead_=E2=80=98b?= =?utf-8?q?luesky=E2=80=99_decentralized_social_network_effort?= Message-ID: ?The really powerful thing about Twitter doing a decentralized protocol move is that if you could design a protocol that works in an ideal way, you don?t have to go through the initial effort of finding the niche to bootstrap from because Twitter will bring so many users,? Graber told us. In January, TechCrunch profiled the initiative as it gathered more attention following Twitter?s permanent ban of former President Donald Trump from its platform. Following Trump?s removal, Twitter CEO Jack Dorsey highlighted the bluesky effort as one of the company?s ongoing initiatives to ensure that social media moderation could be less decentralized in the future. A decentralized social media protocol would allow for individual networks to govern themselves without one company or organization exercising monolithic control over the sphere of online conversations. ?I think a huge focus for everyone involved has been thinking how do we enable better moderation, and not just coming from one source,? Graber told TechCrunch." https://techcrunch.com/2021/08/16/twitter-taps-crypto-developer-to-lead-bluesky-decentralized-social-network-effort/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 06:54:31 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2021 23:54:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Marvel=E2=80=99s_What_If=3F_review=3A_How_to_bre?= =?utf-8?q?ak_the_MCU_in_all_the_right_ways?= Message-ID: I loved Marvel's "What If" comic as a boy, and am overjoyed that a television show has been adapted from it. The first episode was excellent... "Created by screenwriter and producer A.C. Bradley and inspired by the comic book series of the same name, *What If?* devotes each episode to a particular moment in the MCU timeline and explores how easily it could have unfolded differently, as well as the ripple effect that small difference would have had on everything that came later. For example, the first episode of the series reveals how easily SHIELD agent Peggy Carter (who previously headlined Marvel?s live-action *Agent Carter* series) could have ended up with the super-soldier serum that turned Steve Rogers into Captain America. However, even with all of the superhuman abilities the serum bestowed on her, Peggy finds herself waging a battle against Hydra as well as the misogyny of a WWII-era military structure that can?t imagine sending a woman to war. Peggy isn?t the only MCU character to experience a new story arc, either, as Steve Rogers, Howard Stark (Tony?s father), and other characters head in a new direction thanks to the emergence of ?Captain Carter? instead of the Captain America we know. The second episode of the series then explores what would have happened if, instead of inheriting the mantle of Black Panther, Wakandan prince T?Challa ended up becoming the cosmic adventurer known as Star-Lord instead of Peter Quill. What might initially seem like an inconsequential replacement ends up having massive implications on subsequent MCU events, as T?Challa?s perspective on life and experiences on Earth result in a much different version of Star-Lord ? along with a much different Guardians of the Galaxy roster around him. [image: T'Challa as Star-Lord in a scene from Marvel's What If? series.] ? to look ahead While the stand-alone, alternate-timeline stories presented in *What If?* offer plenty of surface-level entertainment that mixes up Marvel?s roster and then pours it out in new, intriguing combinations, what the stories reveal about some of the big-picture elements of the MCU and its characters? strengths and weaknesses might be the most fascinating aspect of the show." https://www.digitaltrends.com/movies/what-if-review/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 07:01:13 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2021 00:01:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?World=E2=80=99s_most_powerful_tidal_turbine_begi?= =?utf-8?q?ns_generating_electricity?= Message-ID: "A massive tidal turbine said by its maker to be the world?s largest has started generating power. Linked to the European Marine Energy Centre in Orkney just off mainland Scotland, the 74-meter-long, 680-ton O2 turbine will harness the power of ocean currents to meet the annual electricity demand of around 2,000 U.K. homes over the next 15 years." https://www.digitaltrends.com/news/worlds-most-powerful-tidal-turbine-starts-generating-power/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 07:14:28 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2021 00:14:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] July 2021 was the hottest month ever recorded, and it'll only get worse Message-ID: "It's official: July 2021 was the hottest month ever recorded on Earth , illustrating just how real the consequences of climate change are. Confirming the statistic, Rick Spinrad of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) of the U.S. said that the new record "adds to the disturbing and disruptive path that climate change has set for the globe". July 2021's global surface temperature was recorded as being 0.93 degrees Celsius above average, placing it higher than the previous record set in 2016, 2019, and 2020 by 0.01 degrees. Firefighters attempt to put out flames during Turkey's forest fire crisis. IMAGE: Al Jazeera ------------------------------ In the Northern Hemisphere, the temperatures recorded on land surfaces were the highest ever ? a scary 1.54 degrees Celsius above average, while Asia also experienced the hottest July ever since temperatures temperature records began. Such clear changes to the climate provide clear proof of the harm caused by fossil fuel industries. According to a new United Nations climate report, there is now evidence that these sectors have clearly affected the weather on a global scale, and that everywhere in the world bar the polar regions has experienced more and more extreme heat events since the 1950s." https://sea.mashable.com/science/17171/july-2021-was-the-hottest-month-ever-recorded-and-itll-only-get-worse -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 07:18:35 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2021 00:18:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] To achieve AGI, we need new perspectives on intelligence Message-ID: ?A human AGI without a body is bound to be, for all practical purposes, a disembodied ?zombie? of sorts, lacking genuine understanding of the world (with its myriad forms, natural phenomena, beauty, etc.) including its human inhabitants, their motivations, habits, customs, behavior, etc. the agent would need to fake all these,? Raghavachary writes."Accordingly, an embodied AGI system would need a body that matches its brain, and both need to be designed for the specific kind of environment it will be working in. ?We, made of matter and structures, directly interact with structures, whose phenomena we ?experience?. Experience cannot be digitally computed?it needs to be actively acquired via a body,? Raghavachary said. ?To me, there is simply no substitute for direct experience.? In a nutshell, the considered response theory suggests that suitable pairings of synthetic brains and bodies that directly engage with the world should be considered life-like, and appropriately intelligent, and?depending on the functions enabled in the hardware?possibly conscious. This means that you can create any kind of robot and make it intelligent by equipping it with a brain that matches its body and sensory experience. ?Such agents do not need to be anthropomorphic?they could have unusual designs, structures and functions that would produce intelligent behavior alien to our own (e.g., an octopus-like design, with brain functions distributed throughout the body),? Raghavachary said. ?That said, the most relatable human-level AI would likely be best housed in a human-like agent.? https://thenextweb.com/news/create-artificial-general-intelligence-we-need-reevaluate-intelligence-syndication -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 07:25:47 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2021 00:25:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?b?R29vZ2xl4oCZcyDigJh0aW1lIGNyeXN0YWxz4oCZIGNvdWxk?= =?utf-8?q?_be_the_greatest_scientific_achievement_of_our_lifetimes?= Message-ID: "Eureka! A research team featuring dozens of scientists working in partnership with Google?s quantum computing labs *may* have created the world?s first time crystal inside a quantum computer. This is the kind of news that makes me want to jump up and do a *happy dance.* These scientists *may* have produced an entirely new phase of matter. I?m going to do my best to explain what that means and why I personally believe this is the most important scientific breakthrough in our lifetimes." https://thenextweb.com/news/google-may-have-achieved-breakthrough-time-crystals -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 07:31:12 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2021 00:31:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Researcher says a US terrorist watchlist was exposed online for three weeks Message-ID: "The FBI?s Terrorist Screening Center (TSC) may have exposed the records of nearly 2 million individuals and left them accessible online for three weeks. Security researcher Bob Diachenko says he discovered a terrorist watchlist on July 19th that included information like the name, date of birth and passport number of those listed in the database. The cluster also included ?no-fly? indicators. "According to Diachenko, the watchlist wasn?t password protected. Moreover, it was quickly indexed by search engines like Censys and ZoomEye before the Department of Homeland Security took the server offline on August 9th. It?s unclear who may have accessed the data.I immediately reported it to Department of Homeland Security officials, who acknowledged the incident and thanked me for my work,? Diachenko said in a LinkedIn post spotted by Bleeping Computer . ?The DHS did not provide any further official comment, though.? We?ve reached out to the Department of Homeland Security. Among the watchlists the TSC maintains is America?s no-fly list. Federal agencies like Transportation Security Administration (TSA) use the database to identify known or suspected terrorists attempting to enter the country. Suffice to say, the information included in the exposed watchlist was highly sensitive. A recent bipartisan Senate report recently warned of glaring cybersecurity holes at several federal agencies, including the Department of Homeland Security. It said many of the bodies it audited had failed to implement even basic cybersecurity practices like multi-factor authentication and warned national security information was open to theft as a result." Shouldn't we at least try to make it hard on China and Russia? Ugh...... https://www.engadget.com/terrorist-screening-center-data-exposure-224352475.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 17:39:36 2021 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2021 13:39:36 -0400 Subject: [ExI] To achieve AGI, we need new perspectives on intelligence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 12:19 PM John Grigg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > ?A human AGI without a body is bound to be, for all practical purposes, a > disembodied ?zombie? of sorts, lacking genuine understanding of the world > (with its myriad forms, natural phenomena, beauty, etc.) including its > human inhabitants, their motivations, habits, customs, behavior, etc. the > agent would need to fake all these,? Raghavachary > So Hawking's body became a prison, limiting him from "normal" human stuff. Would we have had the benefit of his mind without that body or without that specific circumstance? I think it's important to ensure that our "new definition" of intelligence does not exclude actual humans. Ex: we could inadvertently revoke human status from comatose patients. It seems to me like much of the "AGI isn't real" blah blah is in defense of human superiority in the face of our losing that apex-thinker status. (Or that somehow humans have an all-important soul that machines will always lack) We need to admit that we're still eating and abusing other animals that show signs of intelligence... and we're starting to imagine AGI being the apex predator in the digital world. We're becoming prey... for a hunter we're still building. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 17:54:30 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2021 12:54:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] To achieve AGI, we need new perspectives on intelligence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A case can be made for lowering the IQ of pigs. I took a pig brain out (physiological psych lab) and it was amazing: looked just like a human brain - very convoluted. Pigs are usually rated just behind dogs and ahead of horses, though pigs are very resistant to any kind of testing. It might assuage our consciences and make pigs easier to handle (kill!). If you want to stop killing intelligent animals, start with pigs. bill w On Tue, Aug 17, 2021 at 12:41 PM Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 12:19 PM John Grigg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> ?A human AGI without a body is bound to be, for all practical purposes, a >> disembodied ?zombie? of sorts, lacking genuine understanding of the world >> (with its myriad forms, natural phenomena, beauty, etc.) including its >> human inhabitants, their motivations, habits, customs, behavior, etc. the >> agent would need to fake all these,? Raghavachary >> > So Hawking's body became a prison, limiting him from "normal" human stuff. > > Would we have had the benefit of his mind without that body or without > that specific circumstance? > > I think it's important to ensure that our "new definition" of intelligence > does not exclude actual humans. Ex: we could inadvertently revoke human > status from comatose patients. > > It seems to me like much of the "AGI isn't real" blah blah is in defense > of human superiority in the face of our losing that apex-thinker status. > (Or that somehow humans have an all-important soul that machines will > always lack) > > We need to admit that we're still eating and abusing other animals that > show signs of intelligence... and we're starting to imagine AGI being the > apex predator in the digital world. We're becoming prey... for a hunter > we're still building. > >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 18:21:39 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2021 14:21:39 -0400 Subject: [ExI] To achieve AGI, we need new perspectives on intelligence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 17, 2021 at 1:41 PM Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 12:19 PM John Grigg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> ?A human AGI without a body is bound to be, for all practical purposes, a >> disembodied ?zombie? of sorts, lacking genuine understanding of the world >> (with its myriad forms, natural phenomena, beauty, etc.) including its >> human inhabitants, their motivations, habits, customs, behavior, etc. the >> agent would need to fake all these,? Raghavachary >> > I don't think there's anything magical about a body that enables genuine understanding of the world. > So Hawking's body became a prison, limiting him from "normal" human stuff. > > Would we have had the benefit of his mind without that body or without > that specific circumstance? > We'll never know. I think it's important to ensure that our "new definition" of intelligence > does not exclude actual humans. Ex: we could inadvertently revoke human > status from comatose patients. > Why do we need to redefine intelligence? Unconscious people, whether comatose or sleeping or passed out drunk, aren't actively intelligent until they regain consciousness. Doesn't mean they're not people. It seems to me like much of the "AGI isn't real" blah blah is in defense of > human superiority in the face of our losing that apex-thinker status. (Or > that somehow humans have an all-important soul that machines will always > lack) > No doubt there are people who will consider actual humans superior to AIs/robots that are demonstrably superior in every way. I'll happily admit that AlphaGo is a better Go player than I am. But I don't think that means it's smarter than I am. We need to admit that we're still eating and abusing other animals that > show signs of intelligence... > There's no excuse for animal abuse but eating animals is normal for humans and arguably one of the reasons we're where we are today. Veganism/vegetarianism is a recent development and we don't know how to satisfy all of our nutritional requirements from purely plant-based sources. Nor the environmental costs of trying to do that. and we're starting to imagine AGI being the apex predator in the digital > world. We're becoming prey... for a hunter we're still building. > If we do that, we deserve what we get. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 18:31:11 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2021 11:31:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?b?R29vZ2xl4oCZcyDigJh0aW1lIGNyeXN0YWxz4oCZIGNvdWxk?= =?utf-8?q?_be_the_greatest_scientific_achievement_of_our_lifetimes?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Waaay too much hype for something that hasn't even been verified yet. Almost makes it seem likely that it'll come to nothing. On Tue, Aug 17, 2021 at 9:24 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > "Eureka! A research team featuring dozens of scientists working in > partnership with Google?s quantum computing labs *may* have created the > world?s first time crystal inside a quantum computer. > > This is the kind of news that makes me > want to jump up and do a *happy dance.* > > These scientists *may* have produced an entirely new phase of matter. I?m > going to do my best to explain what that means and why I personally believe > this is the most important scientific breakthrough in our lifetimes." > > > https://thenextweb.com/news/google-may-have-achieved-breakthrough-time-crystals > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 01:20:17 2021 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2021 21:20:17 -0400 Subject: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1F58614D-4679-4154-96EA-EB8AF32DDAC6@gmail.com> I just don?t understand how pirating a CD and listening to it at the library are any functionally different. SR Ballard > On Aug 15, 2021, at 5:29 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > Honest as the day is long: me. Mr. Morality. Now when all this computer stuff really got going, and you could download music and not pay for it, it ruffled my feathers: the musicians were being cheated. This was wrong (and is still wrong). I discussed this with some of my classes, and they could seem to find no moral problem here: if they could do it, they did it - a full apple tree with no farmer around - whatta ya expect? I am still disappointed in those students robbing the people who were giving them so much pleasure. It did teach me more than I knew at the time about people. bill w > >> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 3:47 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: >>> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 3:51 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: >> >>> Things seem to be getting worse instead of better. Farmers can't fix their own broken tractors, musicians are afraid to make music for fear of being sued, you can end up in jail for taking apart your games console.. >> >> For what it's worth, there are legislative efforts to fix the first of those (look up "right to repair"), and the last is apparently no longer a thing if it ever was. As to musicians - only very certain specifics of music; bands are making music every day all across the USA with no fear of the courtroom. >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 01:31:48 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2021 20:31:48 -0500 Subject: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms In-Reply-To: <1F58614D-4679-4154-96EA-EB8AF32DDAC6@gmail.com> References: <1F58614D-4679-4154-96EA-EB8AF32DDAC6@gmail.com> Message-ID: SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: I just don?t understand how pirating a CD and listening to it at the library are any functionally different. The library paid for it. When a radio station plays a song they have to send money to ASCAP (I think - something like that) bill w On Tue, Aug 17, 2021 at 8:22 PM > > SR Ballard > > On Aug 15, 2021, at 5:29 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ? > Honest as the day is long: me. Mr. Morality. Now when all this computer > stuff really got going, and you could download music and not pay for it, it > ruffled my feathers: the musicians were being cheated. This was wrong > (and is still wrong). I discussed this with some of my classes, and they > could seem to find no moral problem here: if they could do it, they did it > - a full apple tree with no farmer around - whatta ya expect? I am still > disappointed in those students robbing the people who were giving them so > much pleasure. It did teach me more than I knew at the time about people. > bill w > > On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 3:47 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 3:51 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Things seem to be getting worse instead of better. Farmers can't fix >>> their own broken tractors, musicians are afraid to make music for fear of >>> being sued, you can end up in jail for taking apart your games console.. >>> >> >> For what it's worth, there are legislative efforts to fix the first of >> those (look up "right to repair"), and the last is apparently no longer a >> thing if it ever was. As to musicians - only very certain specifics of >> music; bands are making music every day all across the USA with no fear of >> the courtroom. >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 18 01:54:23 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2021 18:54:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms In-Reply-To: References: <1F58614D-4679-4154-96EA-EB8AF32DDAC6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000901d793d3$f8548470$e8fd8d50$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms SR Ballard via extropy-chat > wrote: I just don?t understand how pirating a CD and listening to it at the library are any functionally different. >?The library paid for it. When a radio station plays a song they have to send money to ASCAP (I think - something like that) bill w Simple reality: if we do not pay good artists for their intellectual property, we end up with rap. As far as I can tell, rap cannot be called ?intellectual? property. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 06:02:29 2021 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2021 02:02:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So the library pays $9.99 and tens of thousands can listen, how is that any different than piracy, assuming one person pays for the album? I can also listen to a friend?s CD as many times as I like. It?s illogical. SR Ballard > On Aug 17, 2021, at 9:33 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: > I just don?t understand how pirating a CD and listening to it at the library are any functionally different. The library paid for it. When a radio station plays a song they have to send money to ASCAP (I think - something like that) bill w > > On Tue, Aug 17, 2021 at 8:22 PM >> >> SR Ballard >> >>>> On Aug 15, 2021, at 5:29 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >>>> >>> ? >>> Honest as the day is long: me. Mr. Morality. Now when all this computer stuff really got going, and you could download music and not pay for it, it ruffled my feathers: the musicians were being cheated. This was wrong (and is still wrong). I discussed this with some of my classes, and they could seem to find no moral problem here: if they could do it, they did it - a full apple tree with no farmer around - whatta ya expect? I am still disappointed in those students robbing the people who were giving them so much pleasure. It did teach me more than I knew at the time about people. bill w >>> >>>> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 3:47 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: >>>>> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 3:51 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: >>>> >>>>> Things seem to be getting worse instead of better. Farmers can't fix their own broken tractors, musicians are afraid to make music for fear of being sued, you can end up in jail for taking apart your games console.. >>>> >>>> For what it's worth, there are legislative efforts to fix the first of those (look up "right to repair"), and the last is apparently no longer a thing if it ever was. As to musicians - only very certain specifics of music; bands are making music every day all across the USA with no fear of the courtroom. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 11:49:31 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2021 07:49:31 -0400 Subject: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 2:04 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > So the library pays $9.99 and tens of thousands can listen, how is that > any different than piracy, assuming one person pays for the album? > Borrowing a physical, paid-for copy from a library is legal. Pirating is illegal. The artist and label are paid for the physical copy. They aren't paid for pirated copies. Tens of thousands of people could, sequentially, listen to the library copy, but in reality, that won't happen. > I can also listen to a friend?s CD as many times as I like. > > It?s illogical. > It's the law: it doesn't have to be logical. Yes, the "harm" caused by a single act of piracy is insignificant. On the scale of Napster, though, it's very significant. -Dave, a member of ASCAP -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Wed Aug 18 12:19:43 2021 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2021 08:19:43 -0400 Subject: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms In-Reply-To: <000901d793d3$f8548470$e8fd8d50$@rainier66.com> References: <000901d793d3$f8548470$e8fd8d50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, I find your ignorant generalization and attempt at a joke offensive. I?m kind of embarrassed for you. Rap is diverse, heterogeneous like the people who make it. Some is intellectually void aka the WAP song. Much is not. Listen to the latest (2021) by Nas or anything by KRS-One to expand your horizons in this area. -Henry > On Aug 17, 2021, at 9:54 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > > > ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms > > SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: > I just don?t understand how pirating a CD and listening to it at the library are any functionally different. >?The library paid for it. When a radio station plays a song they have to send money to ASCAP (I think - something like that) bill w > > > Simple reality: if we do not pay good artists for their intellectual property, we end up with rap. As far as I can tell, rap cannot be called ?intellectual? property. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 18 12:41:28 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2021 05:41:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms In-Reply-To: References: <000901d793d3$f8548470$e8fd8d50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003d01d7942e$5dc75530$1955ff90$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Henry Rivera via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms >?Spike, I find your ignorant generalization and attempt at a joke offensive. I?m kind of embarrassed for you. Rap is diverse, heterogeneous like the people who make it. Some is intellectually void aka the WAP song. Much is not. Listen to the latest (2021) by Nas or anything by KRS-One to expand your horizons in this area. -Henry Henry, rap follows a progression from the big bands era, with about 20 musicians to pay, vs rock and roll which was typically 4 to 6 players, to rap which is made by one person, no need of a band, for the background sounds are public domain. Rap costs nothing to make. Big bands are big money. So? if we have no way to pay good artists, we end up with rap. While recognizing that rap often contains the strongest second amendment rights sounds on the radio, it sometime also promotes murder. From what I can tell, much rap contains lyrics that should cause it to be shunned, such as racist and sexist terms. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 13:31:18 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2021 09:31:18 -0400 Subject: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms In-Reply-To: <003d01d7942e$5dc75530$1955ff90$@rainier66.com> References: <000901d793d3$f8548470$e8fd8d50$@rainier66.com> <003d01d7942e$5dc75530$1955ff90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 9:16 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Henry, rap follows a progression from the big bands era, with about 20 > musicians to pay, vs rock and roll which was typically 4 to 6 players, to > rap which is made by one person, no need of a band, for the background > sounds are public domain. Rap costs nothing to make. Big bands are big > money. > > > > So? if we have no way to pay good artists, we end up with rap. > Spike, the joke doesn't get funnier with repetition. I know it won't help make this go away, but "background sounds" aren't public domain. Rap does need a band. While recognizing that rap often contains the strongest second amendment > rights sounds on the radio, it sometime also promotes murder. From what I > can tell, much rap contains lyrics that should cause it to be shunned, such > as racist and sexist terms. > If you shun an entire genre, you're generalizing. Some of it is racist, sexist, or otherwise offensive to some people. By all means, shun that which offends you. If you don't like any of it, don't listen to it. But don't think that disrespecting it is funny because it's not. You make a joke. It wasn't funny. Let's move on. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 13:36:57 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2021 08:36:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: OK Ballard - you come up with a fair way to pay the people whose creativity and sweat produced the songs. bill w On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 1:04 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > So the library pays $9.99 and tens of thousands can listen, how is that > any different than piracy, assuming one person pays for the album? > > I can also listen to a friend?s CD as many times as I like. > > It?s illogical. > > SR Ballard > > On Aug 17, 2021, at 9:33 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ? > SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: > I just don?t understand how pirating a CD and listening to it at the > library are any functionally different. The library paid for it. When a > radio station plays a song they have to send money to ASCAP (I think - > something like that) bill w > > On Tue, Aug 17, 2021 at 8:22 PM > >> >> SR Ballard >> >> On Aug 15, 2021, at 5:29 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> ? >> Honest as the day is long: me. Mr. Morality. Now when all this >> computer stuff really got going, and you could download music and not pay >> for it, it ruffled my feathers: the musicians were being cheated. This >> was wrong (and is still wrong). I discussed this with some of my classes, >> and they could seem to find no moral problem here: if they could do it, >> they did it - a full apple tree with no farmer around - whatta ya expect? >> I am still disappointed in those students robbing the people who were >> giving them so much pleasure. It did teach me more than I knew at the time >> about people. bill w >> >> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 3:47 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 3:51 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Things seem to be getting worse instead of better. Farmers can't fix >>>> their own broken tractors, musicians are afraid to make music for fear of >>>> being sued, you can end up in jail for taking apart your games console.. >>>> >>> >>> For what it's worth, there are legislative efforts to fix the first of >>> those (look up "right to repair"), and the last is apparently no longer a >>> thing if it ever was. As to musicians - only very certain specifics of >>> music; bands are making music every day all across the USA with no fear of >>> the courtroom. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 18 13:47:36 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2021 06:47:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms In-Reply-To: References: <000901d793d3$f8548470$e8fd8d50$@rainier66.com> <003d01d7942e$5dc75530$1955ff90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005b01d79437$9ab7d510$d0277f30$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dave Sill via extropy-chat >?If you shun an entire genre, you're generalizing. Some of it is racist, sexist, or otherwise offensive to some people. By all means, shun that which offends you. If you don't like any of it, don't listen to it. But don't think that disrespecting it is funny because it's not. >?You make a joke. It wasn't funny. Let's move on. -Dave Dave, I never intended humor. Rap is nearly free to make. It is one guy performing with public domain background sounds. Some of it uses racist terms. Do explain please what part of that is humor. Regarding generalizing: my introduction to the genre was at a Hilary Clinton campaign event where a rap was performed by JayZ. I heard what I thought was racist terms. In that venue I found this astonishing, appalling. Do explain please what is OK with JayZ?s Dirt Off My Shoulder. Why was that one allowed there? Solution: radio stations can refuse to play rap which contains racist or sexist term, or promote murder. That was easy: market forces clean up the problem. sppike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 17:34:52 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2021 10:34:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms In-Reply-To: References: <000901d793d3$f8548470$e8fd8d50$@rainier66.com> <003d01d7942e$5dc75530$1955ff90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 6:33 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Spike, the joke doesn't get funnier with repetition. > I'm pretty sure he wasn't joking. > I know it won't help make this go away, but "background sounds" aren't > public domain. > Actually, they are. I believe he means samples of whatever sounds are heard in public. > Rap does need a band. > Rap can, and often is, performed with a one-person "band", which Spike may be counting as "not truly a band". If you shun an entire genre, you're generalizing. Some of it is racist, > sexist, or otherwise offensive to some people. By all means, shun that > which offends you. If you don't like any of it, don't listen to it. But > don't think that disrespecting it is funny because it's not. > I believe that Spike has no examples of rap that is not racist, sexist, or similar. Might you please provide him with some examples that are more acceptable? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 18:46:29 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2021 14:46:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms In-Reply-To: References: <000901d793d3$f8548470$e8fd8d50$@rainier66.com> <003d01d7942e$5dc75530$1955ff90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 1:37 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 6:33 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Spike, the joke doesn't get funnier with repetition. >> > I'm pretty sure he wasn't joking. > That's pretty sad. I know it won't help make this go away, but "background sounds" aren't >> public domain. >> > Actually, they are. I believe he means samples of whatever sounds are > heard in public. > You may be free to record them, but once recorded they're copyrighted. Rap does need a band. >> > Rap can, and often is, performed with a one-person "band", which Spike may > be counting as "not truly a band". > Rapping is the rhythmic, rhyming speech part of rap music, AKA hip hop music, but rap music has various accompaniment, especially percussion, which can be beatboxing, record scratching, playing of samples, synthesisers, etc., that constitutes a band, IMO, even if it's just a "DJ" pushing buttons. I believe that Spike has no examples of rap that is not racist, sexist, or > similar. Might you please provide him with some examples that are more > acceptable? > I'm not a rap fan but I've heard plenty that's not offensive. I don't have the time or inclination to provide examples right now. Maybe later. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 18:52:10 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2021 11:52:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: to my fellow renaissance life forms In-Reply-To: References: <000901d793d3$f8548470$e8fd8d50$@rainier66.com> <003d01d7942e$5dc75530$1955ff90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 11:46 AM Dave Sill wrote: > On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 1:37 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 6:33 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> > I know it won't help make this go away, but "background sounds" aren't >>> public domain. >>> >> Actually, they are. I believe he means samples of whatever sounds are >> heard in public. >> > > You may be free to record them, but once recorded they're copyrighted. > This fits with his definition of "public domain": you can record them freely, and while that specific recording is then copyrighted to you (...actually, it might not be), you don't have to pay anyone else for use of the background sounds. > Rap does need a band. >>> >> Rap can, and often is, performed with a one-person "band", which Spike >> may be counting as "not truly a band". >> > > Rapping is the rhythmic, rhyming speech part of rap music, AKA hip hop > music, but rap music has various accompaniment, especially percussion, > which can be beatboxing, record scratching, playing of samples, > synthesisers, etc., that constitutes a band, IMO, even if it's just a "DJ" > pushing buttons. > All of which is irrelevant to what I believe is Spike's definition: if it's only one human being (no matter how much mechanical, electronic, and - these days - AI assistance), it's not truly a band. > I believe that Spike has no examples of rap that is not racist, sexist, or >> similar. Might you please provide him with some examples that are more >> acceptable? >> > > I'm not a rap fan but I've heard plenty that's not offensive. I don't have > the time or inclination to provide examples right now. Maybe later. > Please do at some point. Otherwise, Spike's evidence set will consist entirely of offensive rap, and he will be justified in his conclusion that seems objectionable to you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 18 23:10:20 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2021 16:10:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms In-Reply-To: References: <000901d793d3$f8548470$e8fd8d50$@rainier66.com> <003d01d7942e$5dc75530$1955ff90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00a501d79486$37de4100$a79ac300$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dave Sill via extropy-chat ? >?I'm not a rap fan but I've heard plenty that's not offensive. I don't have the time or inclination to provide examples right now. Maybe later. -Dave Found one. A bit outdated, but I like it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bGOgY1CmiU -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 18 23:24:35 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2021 16:24:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms In-Reply-To: <00a501d79486$37de4100$a79ac300$@rainier66.com> References: <000901d793d3$f8548470$e8fd8d50$@rainier66.com> <003d01d7942e$5dc75530$1955ff90$@rainier66.com> <00a501d79486$37de4100$a79ac300$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00c301d79488$35486900$9fd93b00$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2021 4:10 PM To: 'ExI chat list' Cc: 'Cc:' Subject: RE: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms From: extropy-chat > On Behalf Of Dave Sill via extropy-chat ? >>?I'm not a rap fan but I've heard plenty that's not offensive. I don't have the time or inclination to provide examples right now. Maybe later. -Dave >?Found one. A bit outdated, but I like it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bGOgY1CmiU Some have suggested that one isn?t really rap. Well OK, Im no authority on that kind of thing. Stevie Wonder, may you live forever. Here?s a little educational activity: every time you hear of a rap star who has been shot, google on that rap star?s name followed by ?lyrics.? You can also just use this convenient list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_murdered_hip_hop_musicians OK then, look at the lyrics while noting this Wiki article cites a study concluding that over half of American hip hop musician deaths was murder. Could it possibly by that rap or hip hop is somehow connected to, or perhaps influencing murder? Just a thought. Here?s an article written a few years ago on the topic: https://theconversation.com/music-to-die-for-how-genre-affects-popular-musicians-life-expectancy-36660 spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 39080 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bronto at pobox.com Wed Aug 18 23:42:15 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2021 16:42:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms In-Reply-To: <00c301d79488$35486900$9fd93b00$@rainier66.com> References: <000901d793d3$f8548470$e8fd8d50$@rainier66.com> <003d01d7942e$5dc75530$1955ff90$@rainier66.com> <00a501d79486$37de4100$a79ac300$@rainier66.com> <00c301d79488$35486900$9fd93b00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On 2021-8-18 16:24, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > Here?s an article written a few years ago on the topic: > https://theconversation.com/music-to-die-for-how-genre-affects-popular-musicians-life-expectancy-36660 I did not know that life expectancy of non-musicians is (more weakly) correlated with music genre, as the thin lines in the chart suggest. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 19 00:05:19 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2021 17:05:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms In-Reply-To: References: <000901d793d3$f8548470$e8fd8d50$@rainier66.com> <003d01d7942e$5dc75530$1955ff90$@rainier66.com> <00a501d79486$37de4100$a79ac300$@rainier66.com> <00c301d79488$35486900$9fd93b00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <000501d7948d$e69038f0$b3b0aad0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2021 4:42 PM To: spike jones via extropy-chat Cc: Anton Sherwood Subject: Re: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms On 2021-8-18 16:24, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > Here?s an article written a few years ago on the topic: > https://theconversation.com/music-to-die-for-how-genre-affects-popular > -musicians-life-expectancy-36660 I did not know that life expectancy of non-musicians is (more weakly) correlated with music genre, as the thin lines in the chart suggest. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org _______________________________________________ Ja I thought that was weird too Anton. They show a life expectancy vs time curve up there with no scale (I recognize that one) while showing on the main graph life expectancy vs music genre. But music genre is a bit ambiguous. If I cite Stevie Wonder as an example of rap, what I was really doing there was comparing lyrics of songs from the long time agos to now. I like long time agos. A few years ago, the local convenience store was robbed and the clerk was shot: https://www.mercurynews.com/2012/09/09/employee-shot-to-death-at-7-eleven-store-in-milpitas/ They took the clerk in the back room, put a gun in his mouth and shot twice. They didn't bother to make it look like a possible suicide with that second shot. Although this happened just down the street from the police headquarters, there were no witnesses, no one heard anything, the bad guys got away. The surveillance video was useless for the bad guys wore masks. At least a coupla years went by. Then a tip came in that a rapper from Sacramento commented rhythmically: ...Took a road trip Took down that place Two to the mouth Now it's a cold case... The local detectives went to have a little chat with him. Upon just casual questioning, the rapper unexpectedly caved with: I didn't pull the trigger. He turned over the names of the one who did, who turned over the name of the third guy in the store and the one who drove the getaway car. All four were convicted of murder 1. OK then. A coupla years after murdering a store clerk for no reason, this rapper considered it entertaining to rap about the crime. Perhaps rapping about murder actually promotes literal murder. We have wandered far from Stevie Wonder's lyrical works. spike From atymes at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 01:56:57 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2021 18:56:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms In-Reply-To: <00c301d79488$35486900$9fd93b00$@rainier66.com> References: <000901d793d3$f8548470$e8fd8d50$@rainier66.com> <003d01d7942e$5dc75530$1955ff90$@rainier66.com> <00a501d79486$37de4100$a79ac300$@rainier66.com> <00c301d79488$35486900$9fd93b00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: What's the x axis for non-musicians in that chart? On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 4:26 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* spike at rainier66.com > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 18, 2021 4:10 PM > *To:* 'ExI chat list' > *Cc:* 'Cc:' > *Subject:* RE: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms > > > > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Dave Sill via extropy-chat > *?* > > > > >>?I'm not a rap fan but I've heard plenty that's not offensive. I don't > have the time or inclination to provide examples right now. Maybe later. > > > > -Dave > > > > >?Found one. A bit outdated, but I like it: > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bGOgY1CmiU > > > > > > Some have suggested that one isn?t really rap. Well OK, Im no authority > on that kind of thing. Stevie Wonder, may you live forever. > > > > Here?s a little educational activity: every time you hear of a rap star > who has been shot, google on that rap star?s name followed by ?lyrics.? > > > > You can also just use this convenient list: > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_murdered_hip_hop_musicians > > > > OK then, look at the lyrics while noting this Wiki article cites a study > concluding that over half of American hip hop musician deaths was murder. > Could it possibly by that rap or hip hop is somehow connected to, or > perhaps influencing murder? Just a thought. > > > > Here?s an article written a few years ago on the topic: > > > > > https://theconversation.com/music-to-die-for-how-genre-affects-popular-musicians-life-expectancy-36660 > > > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 39080 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 19 05:16:46 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2021 22:16:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms In-Reply-To: References: <000901d793d3$f8548470$e8fd8d50$@rainier66.com> <003d01d7942e$5dc75530$1955ff90$@rainier66.com> <00a501d79486$37de4100$a79ac300$@rainier66.com> <00c301d79488$35486900$9fd93b00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002101d794b9$68ac9380$3a05ba80$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms >?What's the x axis for non-musicians in that chart? Looks like they meant time from about 1940 to now, guessing by my vague familiarity with life expectancy curves. Clearly whoever wrote that article wasn?t a scientist, but it was hard to miss the number of rapsters who managed to get themselves slain. No doubt there is plenty of rap that doesn?t involve crime in any way, and I am not claiming any expertise in the field. That list on WikiPedia was most appalling however: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_murdered_hip_hop_musicians If we continue on that theme that lower cost music results from widespread downloading of audio, we can make some reasonable extrapolations. I talk to young people today: I find few who have any notion that downloading and copying music is theft. I see very little indication that they intend to start paying for something that they have always considered free. OK, so? what happens? I foresee karaoke radio. Consider talk radio. On the AM dial, advertisers need a low-cost program, so they put on political talk where anyone can call in and have their notions broadcast. They don?t cost anything, so the show itself doesn?t cost anything. It?s the spoken word equivalent of karaoke. So why not do music that way too? Anyone who wants to get on the radio with their rap or whatever they have can just come in to the radio station and play or sing, or rap or whatever they do. No cost to the station, advertisers get nearly free content, so all they pay for is the radio broadcasting cost. All musical entertainment goes amateur. No one cares who downloads music files, because no one tries to make a living at music. Then everything is free and everyone is happy, ja? The music is terrible, but I have my CDs that I like and listen to in my car, so? I?m good with it. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 05:42:26 2021 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 01:42:26 -0400 Subject: [ExI] to my fellow renaissance life forms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6D94A356-83B7-4D10-8A17-7C0EC897D0D9@gmail.com> I like their work, I give them money. It?s not complicated. I will often buy a physical or electronic copy of a book I have pirated, if I liked it. I buy merch from bands, pay for concert tickets, buy tracks. I donate money to streamers... Piracy is no different than borrowing your friend?s book/CD/movie. If you enjoyed it, you?ll get a legit copy for yourself. SR Ballard > On Aug 18, 2021, at 9:39 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > OK Ballard - you come up with a fair way to pay the people whose creativity and sweat produced the songs. bill w > > >> On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 1:04 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >> So the library pays $9.99 and tens of thousands can listen, how is that any different than piracy, assuming one person pays for the album? >> >> I can also listen to a friend?s CD as many times as I like. >> >> It?s illogical. >> >> SR Ballard >> >>>> On Aug 17, 2021, at 9:33 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >>>> >>> ? >>> SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >>> I just don?t understand how pirating a CD and listening to it at the library are any functionally different. The library paid for it. When a radio station plays a song they have to send money to ASCAP (I think - something like that) bill w >>> >>> On Tue, Aug 17, 2021 at 8:22 PM >>>> >>>> SR Ballard >>>> >>>>> On Aug 15, 2021, at 5:29 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >>>>> >>>>> ? >>>>> Honest as the day is long: me. Mr. Morality. Now when all this computer stuff really got going, and you could download music and not pay for it, it ruffled my feathers: the musicians were being cheated. This was wrong (and is still wrong). I discussed this with some of my classes, and they could seem to find no moral problem here: if they could do it, they did it - a full apple tree with no farmer around - whatta ya expect? I am still disappointed in those students robbing the people who were giving them so much pleasure. It did teach me more than I knew at the time about people. bill w >>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 3:47 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: >>>>>>> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 3:51 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Things seem to be getting worse instead of better. Farmers can't fix their own broken tractors, musicians are afraid to make music for fear of being sued, you can end up in jail for taking apart your games console.. >>>>>> >>>>>> For what it's worth, there are legislative efforts to fix the first of those (look up "right to repair"), and the last is apparently no longer a thing if it ever was. As to musicians - only very certain specifics of music; bands are making music every day all across the USA with no fear of the courtroom. >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Thu Aug 19 20:51:43 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 21:51:43 +0100 Subject: [ExI] 'Copyright' (Was: to my fellow renaissance life forms) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <66568bf9-f6cf-fbc8-7730-720141c1f01c@zaiboc.net> On 19/08/2021 00:24, Dave Sill wrote: > > I know it won't help make this go away, but "background > sounds" aren't public domain. > > Actually, they are.? I believe he means samples of whatever sounds > are heard in public. > > > You may be free to record them, but once recorded they're copyrighted. > What? Please explain how that makes any sense at all. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Thu Aug 19 21:23:03 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 22:23:03 +0100 Subject: [ExI] 'Copyright' (Was: Re: to my fellow renaissance life forms) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <733c4859-ca6d-487d-c499-aee35fefdb95@zaiboc.net> SR Ballard wrote: > I like their work, I give them money. It?s not complicated. > > I will often buy a physical or electronic copy of a book I have > pirated, if I liked it. I buy merch from bands, pay for concert > tickets, buy tracks. I donate money to streamers... > > Piracy is no different than borrowing your friend?s book/CD/movie. If > you enjoyed it, you?ll get a legit copy for yourself. > > SR Ballard Thank you, a lone sane voice among the brainwashed (so it seems to me, anyway). Ask Charlie Stross how he makes a living when he routinely puts his fiction on the web for anyone to read without any strings whatsoever. My experience and opinion, is the same as SRB's. I have paid-for hard copies of several works of fiction (by Stross and others) that I first read for free. I decided that I wanted to give these guys money to encourage them to keep writing the stuff that I like. I have also read for free, stuff that I didn't like so much, and declined to give those authors money, not wanting to encourage them further. What could be fairer than that? The people who profit the most from the current system are the middle-men. The publishers and big media corporations. You know, the ones who lobby for these crazy copyright laws that benefit no-one but them. The sooner these parasites wither away, the better. Regarding the notion that amateur musicians create nothing but poor-quality pap, consider what the word 'amateur' actually means. And think about who is more likely to produce good music: Someone who does it for love, or someone who does it to pay the rent? How many times have you heard second and third albums from promising bands, and thought "Not nearly as good as the first one"? Why do you think that is? This is one area where I'm quite dismayed to see extropians so deeply entrenched in the same mental rut as the vast majority of people. We're supposed to be good at thinking outside the box and looking to a better future, not enthusiastically toeing the corporate party line that's threatening to drag us down into the kind of dystopia that Cory Doctorow etc. keep trying to alert us all to. Ben From atymes at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 21:25:40 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 14:25:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 'Copyright' (Was: to my fellow renaissance life forms) In-Reply-To: <66568bf9-f6cf-fbc8-7730-720141c1f01c@zaiboc.net> References: <66568bf9-f6cf-fbc8-7730-720141c1f01c@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 1:53 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 19/08/2021 00:24, Dave Sill wrote: > > I know it won't help make this go away, but "background sounds" aren't >>> public domain. >>> >> Actually, they are. I believe he means samples of whatever sounds are >> heard in public. >> > > You may be free to record them, but once recorded they're copyrighted. > > What? > > Please explain how that makes any sense at all. > What I believe he refers to, is that the specific compilation that you made - including the timing and sequence - may be under your copyright, even if the individual sounds that comprise it are not. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 22:30:49 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 17:30:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] 'Copyright' (Was: Re: to my fellow renaissance life forms) In-Reply-To: <733c4859-ca6d-487d-c499-aee35fefdb95@zaiboc.net> References: <733c4859-ca6d-487d-c499-aee35fefdb95@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: How many times have you heard second and third albums from promising bands, and thought "Not nearly as good as the first one"? Why do you think that is? ben I have read several things about hot streaks in various sports. Or sometimes they call it momentum. Statistical studies show that there is no such thing as momentum or hot streaks. Consider how a first album gets published: only the very best songs are included - nothing held back. They want to take advantage of the popularity of the album but it takes time to come up with more great songs. Same thing in novels: second one not as good (like the next one after Ready Player One). Some of these effects fit regression to the mean as well. bill w On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 4:25 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > SR Ballard wrote: > > I like their work, I give them money. It?s not complicated. > > > > I will often buy a physical or electronic copy of a book I have > > pirated, if I liked it. I buy merch from bands, pay for concert > > tickets, buy tracks. I donate money to streamers... > > > > Piracy is no different than borrowing your friend?s book/CD/movie. If > > you enjoyed it, you?ll get a legit copy for yourself. > > > > SR Ballard > > Thank you, a lone sane voice among the brainwashed (so it seems to me, > anyway). > > Ask Charlie Stross how he makes a living when he routinely puts his > fiction on the web for anyone to read without any strings whatsoever. > > My experience and opinion, is the same as SRB's. I have paid-for hard > copies of several works of fiction (by Stross and others) that I first > read for free. I decided that I wanted to give these guys money to > encourage them to keep writing the stuff that I like. I have also read > for free, stuff that I didn't like so much, and declined to give those > authors money, not wanting to encourage them further. > > What could be fairer than that? > > The people who profit the most from the current system are the > middle-men. The publishers and big media corporations. You know, the > ones who lobby for these crazy copyright laws that benefit no-one but > them. The sooner these parasites wither away, the better. > > Regarding the notion that amateur musicians create nothing but > poor-quality pap, consider what the word 'amateur' actually means. And > think about who is more likely to produce good music: Someone who does > it for love, or someone who does it to pay the rent? How many times have > you heard second and third albums from promising bands, and thought "Not > nearly as good as the first one"? Why do you think that is? > > This is one area where I'm quite dismayed to see extropians so deeply > entrenched in the same mental rut as the vast majority of people. We're > supposed to be good at thinking outside the box and looking to a better > future, not enthusiastically toeing the corporate party line that's > threatening to drag us down into the kind of dystopia that Cory Doctorow > etc. keep trying to alert us all to. > > Ben > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Thu Aug 19 23:44:51 2021 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 19:44:51 -0400 Subject: [ExI] 'Copyright' (Was: Re: to my fellow renaissance life forms) In-Reply-To: References: <733c4859-ca6d-487d-c499-aee35fefdb95@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Regarding the subject of instrumental tracks to rap over, as Guru (Gifted Unlimited Rhymes Universal) put it, ?Rap started with, what they did which was so ingenious, was to create a whole form of urban style music from just two turntables and two records and a microphone.? They looped a few seconds of breakdowns in records before samplers were around to do that. Regarding examples of intelligent rap, see by KRS-One: https://youtu.be/67Ei4FmRLaY >From his bio: KRS, an acronym for ??Knowledge Reigning Supreme?, has been called the ?conscience of Hip Hop? (Rolling Stone), ?the greatest live emcee ever? (The Source), the ?spokesperson for Hip Hop? (Wall Street Journal), ?master teacher? (Zulu Nation) and the ?son of Hip Hop? (Kool DJ Herc). With 20 published albums to his credit and his numerous appearances with other artists, KRS-One is believed to have written the most rhymes in Hip Hop?s history. In the 1990s as ?hip-hop? grew more and more commercialized and corporate, it was KRS-One that openly rejected such cultural exploitation and materialism grounding Hip Hop in its original principles of peace, love, unity and safely having fun. Teaching everything from self-creation to stopping violence; from vegetarianism to transcendental meditation, from the establishment of Hip Hop Appreciation Week (every third week in May), to establishing Hip Hop as an international culture at the United Nations (2001), KRS-One has single-handedly held the history and original arts of Hip Hop together now for over two decades. In addition to lecturing at over 500 universities in the United States and publishing three ground-breaking books; ?The Science of Rap? (1995), ?Ruminations? (2003), and the Gospel of Hip Hop? (2009), KRS-One has also established the Stop The Violence Movement (1989), influenced the creation of the ?West-Coast All-Stars? anti-gang anthem ?We?re All In The Same Gang? (1990), warned the Hip Hop community against giving up their humanity for technological advancement (H. E. A. L.?Human Education Against Lies-1991), and has established the Temple of Hip Hop for the spiritual exploration of Hip Hop?s culture (1996). It was KRS-One who first argued that ?rap is something we do; Hip Hop is something we live? and introduced the ?I am Hip Hop? philosophy in 1994 which Black Entertainment Television uses as the title of their Hip Hop Lifetime Achievement Award today. Without question, KRS-One has been the loudest voice for the actual preservation and expansion of original Hip Hop worldwide. On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 6:31 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > How many times have you heard second and third albums from promising > bands, and thought "Not nearly as good as the first one"? Why do you > think that is? ben > I have read several things about hot streaks in various sports. Or > sometimes they call it momentum. Statistical studies show that there is no > such thing as momentum or hot streaks. Consider how a first album gets > published: only the very best songs are included - nothing held back. > They want to take advantage of the popularity of the album but it takes > time to come up with more great songs. Same thing in novels: second one > not as good (like the next one after Ready Player One). > Some of these effects fit regression to the mean as well. bill w > > > On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 4:25 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> SR Ballard wrote: >> > I like their work, I give them money. It?s not complicated. >> > >> > I will often buy a physical or electronic copy of a book I have >> > pirated, if I liked it. I buy merch from bands, pay for concert >> > tickets, buy tracks. I donate money to streamers... >> > >> > Piracy is no different than borrowing your friend?s book/CD/movie. If >> > you enjoyed it, you?ll get a legit copy for yourself. >> > >> > SR Ballard >> >> Thank you, a lone sane voice among the brainwashed (so it seems to me, >> anyway). >> >> Ask Charlie Stross how he makes a living when he routinely puts his >> fiction on the web for anyone to read without any strings whatsoever. >> >> My experience and opinion, is the same as SRB's. I have paid-for hard >> copies of several works of fiction (by Stross and others) that I first >> read for free. I decided that I wanted to give these guys money to >> encourage them to keep writing the stuff that I like. I have also read >> for free, stuff that I didn't like so much, and declined to give those >> authors money, not wanting to encourage them further. >> >> What could be fairer than that? >> >> The people who profit the most from the current system are the >> middle-men. The publishers and big media corporations. You know, the >> ones who lobby for these crazy copyright laws that benefit no-one but >> them. The sooner these parasites wither away, the better. >> >> Regarding the notion that amateur musicians create nothing but >> poor-quality pap, consider what the word 'amateur' actually means. And >> think about who is more likely to produce good music: Someone who does >> it for love, or someone who does it to pay the rent? How many times have >> you heard second and third albums from promising bands, and thought "Not >> nearly as good as the first one"? Why do you think that is? >> >> This is one area where I'm quite dismayed to see extropians so deeply >> entrenched in the same mental rut as the vast majority of people. We're >> supposed to be good at thinking outside the box and looking to a better >> future, not enthusiastically toeing the corporate party line that's >> threatening to drag us down into the kind of dystopia that Cory Doctorow >> etc. keep trying to alert us all to. >> >> Ben >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Thu Aug 19 23:45:21 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 16:45:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 'Copyright' (Was: Re: to my fellow renaissance life forms) In-Reply-To: <733c4859-ca6d-487d-c499-aee35fefdb95@zaiboc.net> References: <733c4859-ca6d-487d-c499-aee35fefdb95@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <97639271-2422-8c3b-f335-ea3c4ccba8a7@pobox.com> On 2021-8-19 14:23, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > I have paid-for hard copies of several works of fiction > (by Stross and others) that I first read for free. I know someone who has said he never buys a book that he has not read (and never buys paperbacks). -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From pharos at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 08:39:16 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2021 09:39:16 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Human Stupidity Explained Message-ID: Human Stupidity Explained: A Study Published on the Scientific Journal "Systems" Thursday, August 19, 2021 Quotes: Let me explain: we all know that we are surrounded by stupidity: it truly pervades everything (the recent example of the end of the occupation of Afghanistan is just one of the many). This point had already been noted in the 1970s by Carlo Cipolla, an enlightened economist and historian. Cipolla had proposed "five laws of stupidity." The "third law," the basic one, is expressed as "A stupid person is a person who causes losses to another person or to a group of persons, while himself deriving no gain and even possibly incurring losses." ------- The idea came to us after having studied the history of whaling and of several other fisheries (that we report in our book "The Empty Sea"). A stupid whaler kills all the whales and is left with no resources to exploit. And it is exactly what happened in the 19th century when excessive hunting depleted the whale stock so much that the whaling industry collapsed. Why did whalers (and many other categories) behave in such a stupid way? Because they operated on a too short time scale, emphasizing short-term gains. This is the basis of the problem of overexploitation that has led us to the situation in which we are. ------- So, not surprising that the Lotka-Volterra model could give us some deep insight into Cipolla's intuition. According to our interpretation, stupidity occurs when the dissipation of an energy potential goes too fast: the result is what we call "overexploitation" in which people exploit a resource to the point of destroying it, and damage themselves in the process. Fortunately, we also found that these systems can adapt in the long run. In an evolutionary system, stupidity punishes itself, but it takes time. Unfortunately, we are still in the midst of what could be the greatest stupidity wave that the ecosystem ever saw in its nearly four billion years of existence. --------------------- BillK From sparge at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 11:45:29 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2021 07:45:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] 'Copyright' (Was: to my fellow renaissance life forms) In-Reply-To: <66568bf9-f6cf-fbc8-7730-720141c1f01c@zaiboc.net> References: <66568bf9-f6cf-fbc8-7730-720141c1f01c@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 4:54 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 19/08/2021 00:24, Dave Sill wrote: > > > I know it won't help make this go away, but "background sounds" aren't >>> public domain. >>> >> Actually, they are. I believe he means samples of whatever sounds are >> heard in public. >> > > You may be free to record them, but once recorded they're copyrighted. > > What? > > Please explain how that makes any sense at all. > Knowing what/where/when to record, having the expertise to do that, and compiling it into a product that's good enough that people want to hear it or copy it is a creative process that warrants intellectual property protection under the law. It's pretty obvious that if someone works hard enough to create something that others want, their efforts deserve protection from theft. wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright is pretty informative, if you want to learn more. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 12:09:50 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2021 08:09:50 -0400 Subject: [ExI] 'Copyright' (Was: Re: to my fellow renaissance life forms) In-Reply-To: <733c4859-ca6d-487d-c499-aee35fefdb95@zaiboc.net> References: <733c4859-ca6d-487d-c499-aee35fefdb95@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 5:25 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > SR Ballard wrote: > > I like their work, I give them money. It?s not complicated. > > > > I will often buy a physical or electronic copy of a book I have > > pirated, if I liked it. I buy merch from bands, pay for concert > > tickets, buy tracks. I donate money to streamers... > > > > Piracy is no different than borrowing your friend?s book/CD/movie. If > > you enjoyed it, you?ll get a legit copy for yourself. > > Thank you, a lone sane voice among the brainwashed (so it seems to me, > anyway). > Piracy is *legally* different from borrowing because it's illegal. It may not make sense to you, but that's the law. Ask Charlie Stross how he makes a living when he routinely puts his > fiction on the web for anyone to read without any strings whatsoever. > If Charlie Stross chooses to make his works available, that's great! But that doesn't mean that model will work for every creator. My experience and opinion, is the same as SRB's. I have paid-for hard > copies of several works of fiction (by Stross and others) that I first > read for free. I decided that I wanted to give these guys money to > encourage them to keep writing the stuff that I like. I have also read > for free, stuff that I didn't like so much, and declined to give those > authors money, not wanting to encourage them further. > > What could be fairer than that? > If reading "for free" means reading an illegal copy, then what would be fairer would be to either read a legal copy or not read it at all. The people who profit the most from the current system are the > middle-men. The publishers and big media corporations. You know, the > ones who lobby for these crazy copyright laws that benefit no-one but > them. The sooner these parasites wither away, the better. > Do away with copyrights, and publishers and big media corporations will go away, too. Say goodbye to movies that cost millions to make. You may be fine with that but I suspect the majority would not. Regarding the notion that amateur musicians create nothing but > poor-quality pap, consider what the word 'amateur' actually means. There are great amateurs and talentless pros. > And > think about who is more likely to produce good music: Someone who does > it for love, or someone who does it to pay the rent? Musicians have to pay their rent. How many times have > you heard second and third albums from promising bands, and thought "Not > nearly as good as the first one"? Why do you think that is? > Because the debut album usually comes from several years of writing and pressure to pay the bills, pressure from the label (e.g., via a contract), or just a desire to cash in while they can forces them to release subsequent albums before they've sufficient new material of the same quality. Or maybe they just can't do it again. Sometimes the well runs dry. This is one area where I'm quite dismayed to see extropians so deeply > entrenched in the same mental rut as the vast majority of people. We're > supposed to be good at thinking outside the box and looking to a better > future, not enthusiastically toeing the corporate party line that's > threatening to drag us down into the kind of dystopia that Cory Doctorow > etc. keep trying to alert us all to. > We're talking about the current state of affairs. If you've got an idea for an improvement, let's hear it. I think copyright terms are too long. Shortening them from 50-100 years past the death of the creator to, say, 20 years from the date of publication, would still give creators enough protection to justify their efforts. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 20 13:10:20 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2021 06:10:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 'Copyright' (Was: Re: to my fellow renaissance life forms) In-Reply-To: References: <733c4859-ca6d-487d-c499-aee35fefdb95@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <002a01d795c4$bb46b1a0$31d414e0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dave Sill via extropy-chat ? >?Do away with copyrights, and publishers and big media corporations will go away, too. Say goodbye to movies that cost millions to make. You may be fine with that but I suspect the majority would not. Regarding the notion that amateur musicians create nothing but poor-quality pap, consider what the word 'amateur' actually means. >?There are great amateurs and talentless pros?-Dave A painting or sculpture is created by one person usually. A novelist works alone. Neither of these require organizational skills, but making music usually involves a band and film requires an acting ensemble. As copyright is defeated by technology, we see a necessary transition where music is made by one person, preferably one born to fortunate circumstances so they can make their music rather than labor at a 9 to 5 struggling to pay the rent. I have seen a play performed by one person: Julie Harris recited poems and stories of Emily Dickenson alone on stage in costume for an hour and a half. It was not an interesting play, but? get a video camera, record it, there ya go: cinema created by one person. Extremely low cost. Now you can feel far less guilty if you copy it, and you might feel even less guilty if you watch the first part of it and fall asleep. Problem solved. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 14:33:22 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2021 10:33:22 -0400 Subject: [ExI] 'Copyright' (Was: Re: to my fellow renaissance life forms) In-Reply-To: <002a01d795c4$bb46b1a0$31d414e0$@rainier66.com> References: <733c4859-ca6d-487d-c499-aee35fefdb95@zaiboc.net> <002a01d795c4$bb46b1a0$31d414e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 9:13 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > A painting or sculpture is created by one person usually. > And their works aren't easily copied. Photographs of paintings lack the textures of the original, and the colors are never as good and they don't respond to ambient light the same way. A novelist works alone. > If you don't count the editor, proofreader(s), jacket design, marketing, etc. > Neither of these require organizational skills, but making music usually > involves a band and film requires an acting ensemble. > Producing a film requires a lot more than just an acting ensemble. Look at the credits from a recent blockbuster. There are literally thousands of people involved. As copyright is defeated by technology, > :-) You realize that copyright came about as a response to technology: the printing press? Sure, it's easy to violate copyright law, but that's not the same as defeating copyright. Ask Napster, if you're unclear on the concept. > we see a necessary transition where music is made by one person, > preferably one born to fortunate circumstances so they can make their music > rather than labor at a 9 to 5 struggling to pay the rent. > This is funnier than your rap take, at least. :-) -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 14:52:15 2021 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2021 07:52:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 'Copyright' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7502003A-ECF9-49D1-90AA-FDAF79E1FD47@gmail.com> On Aug 20, 2021, at 7:35 AM, Dave Sill via extropy-chat wrote: >> As copyright is defeated by technology, >> > > :-) You realize that copyright came about as a response to technology: the printing press? Yes, though it came about _not_ to protect the financial viability of printing or make sure authors (and editors, etc.) got paid. Instead, it came about because those in power wanted to control printers. Printing allowed the relatively quick dissemination of copies of works, spreading works criticizing church and state, making dissent much cheaper. A copyright was an official license to produce and trade in books in a given area. Regards, Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Fri Aug 20 14:53:40 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2021 07:53:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 'Copyright' (Was: Re: to my fellow renaissance life forms) In-Reply-To: References: <733c4859-ca6d-487d-c499-aee35fefdb95@zaiboc.net> <002a01d795c4$bb46b1a0$31d414e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On 2021-8-20 07:33, Dave Sill via extropy-chat wrote: > Producing a film requires a lot more than just an acting ensemble. Look > at the credits from a recent blockbuster. There are literally thousands > of people involved. Now I'm imagining a world in which the back of every painting lists the sellers of the supplies, the builder or owner of the studio, and everyone who provided any service to the painter during the work. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From sparge at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 15:30:54 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2021 11:30:54 -0400 Subject: [ExI] 'Copyright' (Was: Re: to my fellow renaissance life forms) In-Reply-To: References: <733c4859-ca6d-487d-c499-aee35fefdb95@zaiboc.net> <002a01d795c4$bb46b1a0$31d414e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 10:59 AM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2021-8-20 07:33, Dave Sill via extropy-chat wrote: > > Producing a film requires a lot more than just an acting ensemble. Look > > at the credits from a recent blockbuster. There are literally thousands > > of people involved. > > Now I'm imagining a world in which the back of every painting lists the > sellers of the supplies, the builder or owner of the studio, and > everyone who provided any service to the painter during the work. > Not everyone listed in the movie credits is a "creative", but there are still many more of them than just the actors who appear on screen. Writers, directors, ADs, composers, musicians, special effects, costuming, editors, animators, etc. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 20 16:30:22 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2021 09:30:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 'Copyright' (Was: Re: to my fellow renaissance life forms) In-Reply-To: References: <733c4859-ca6d-487d-c499-aee35fefdb95@zaiboc.net> <002a01d795c4$bb46b1a0$31d414e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00b201d795e0$ad122760$07367620$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dave Sill via extropy-chat ? we see a necessary transition where music is made by one person, preferably one born to fortunate circumstances so they can make their music rather than labor at a 9 to 5 struggling to pay the rent. >?This is funnier than your rap take, at least. :-) -Dave OK cool so what if? we transition to a time when anything that can be digitized is free to anyone who will download it, radio transitions to karaoke, musicians and authors work alone generally, actors work mostly alone. So we find ways to make the process much simpler and cheaper. Making a film and an audio track is still a lotta work, for which they either don?t get paid at all or if so not much. OK then, sure. We end up with digital content created mostly by people who find themselves in fortunate circumstances and are willing to donate their time and effort to the arts, while their less fortunate potential competitors sweat at a 9 to 5. Well, think about it: the real world is already that way. Old novels were generally written by the gentry and noble classes. The poor were too busy trying to survive. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 17:06:57 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2021 13:06:57 -0400 Subject: [ExI] 'Copyright' (Was: Re: to my fellow renaissance life forms) In-Reply-To: <00b201d795e0$ad122760$07367620$@rainier66.com> References: <733c4859-ca6d-487d-c499-aee35fefdb95@zaiboc.net> <002a01d795c4$bb46b1a0$31d414e0$@rainier66.com> <00b201d795e0$ad122760$07367620$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 12:32 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > OK cool so what if? we transition to a time when anything that can be > digitized is free to anyone who will download it, > OK, but that's not inevitable. If it does happen, we can find another way to fund content creation. Worst case scenario: government funding via an Internet tax. > radio transitions to karaoke, > What's radio? Why would anyone run a radio station when they can broadcast for free around the world from their cell phone? > musicians and authors work alone generally, actors work mostly alone. So > we find ways to make the process much simpler and cheaper. Making a film > and an audio track is still a lotta work, for which they either don?t get > paid at all or if so not much. > People don't want cheap-to-produce content, they want high quality content that's cheap to consume. Watching a $500 million movie in a theater on a giant screen with high-end audio for $15 qualifies. Paying $10/mo to stream all the music you want qualifies. Watching shitty, amateur movies on youtube doesn't. Listening to karaoke doesn't. OK then, sure. We end up with digital content created mostly by people who > find themselves in fortunate circumstances and are willing to donate their > time and effort to the arts, while their less fortunate potential > competitors sweat at a 9 to 5. Well, think about it: the real world is > already that way. Old novels were generally written by the gentry and > noble classes. The poor were too busy trying to survive. > Rich people aren't necessarily good artists. If digital content can't be protected, the arts will move to non-digitizable media. Live music, live theater, etc. And digizations of them may be used for marketing them. Which is pretty close to where we are now. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 17:12:36 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2021 10:12:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 'Copyright' (Was: Re: to my fellow renaissance life forms) In-Reply-To: <002a01d795c4$bb46b1a0$31d414e0$@rainier66.com> References: <733c4859-ca6d-487d-c499-aee35fefdb95@zaiboc.net> <002a01d795c4$bb46b1a0$31d414e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 6:12 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > film requires an acting ensemble > I have wondered, now and then - between increasingly better 3D animation tools and available assets, text to speech where the better versions can pass for human, and of course one person can write a script - if it might be possible for one person to create an entire film that would entertain most people were they to see it. I believe that, as with music, the main hurdle such an effort would face in practice would not be technological but marketing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 17:44:12 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2021 13:44:12 -0400 Subject: [ExI] 'Copyright' (Was: Re: to my fellow renaissance life forms) In-Reply-To: References: <733c4859-ca6d-487d-c499-aee35fefdb95@zaiboc.net> <002a01d795c4$bb46b1a0$31d414e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 1:15 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > I have wondered, now and then - between increasingly better 3D animation > tools and available assets, text to speech where the better versions can > pass for human, and of course one person can write a script - if it might > be possible for one person to create an entire film that would entertain > most people were they to see it. > Not currently, no. It took all that Disney had to de-age Mark Hamill for the Mandalorian finale and even that wasn't very convincing. We still can't convincingly animate a person talking. I have no doubt that that will be achieved before too long...maybe 5-10 years, maybe longer. But to get the point where a simulated person is a really good actor--like Oscar-winning good--that's a whole 'nother level. I believe that, as with music, the main hurdle such an effort would face in > practice would not be technological but marketing. > I think the Screen Actors Guild will try to be a hurdle. I think that all that consumers care about is the quality of the end result. If I can watch a movie and not pick out a fake actor, that's one level of success. When a fake actor gets an Oscar nomination, that's another. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 20 17:51:29 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2021 10:51:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 'Copyright' (Was: Re: to my fellow renaissance life forms) In-Reply-To: <00b201d795e0$ad122760$07367620$@rainier66.com> References: <733c4859-ca6d-487d-c499-aee35fefdb95@zaiboc.net> <002a01d795c4$bb46b1a0$31d414e0$@rainier66.com> <00b201d795e0$ad122760$07367620$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003b01d795ec$01f198f0$05d4cad0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com ? >?OK cool so what if? we transition to a time when anything that can be digitized is free to anyone who will download it, radio transitions to karaoke, musicians and authors work alone generally, actors work mostly alone. ?spike We can generalize this a bit. If recorded works such as music and film transition toward performers working in smaller groups, ideally alone, for little if any, recompense, consider the business model in general. I am particularly interested in business models rather than what we like or don?t like, for consumer preferences are irrelevant if their money doesn?t somehow reach the content provider. So let us consider the business model in general of future digital content providers, by going an indirect route. During covid lockdowns, many restaurants have closed up. Some of the locals attempted to re-open a few months ago, but with the variant, I notice plenty of the places vacated the premises and lowered their flags, particularly the high-end restaurants. Those went down first. But some thrived: fast food places with drive-thru windows. Even during the lockdowns, those places were selling their wares as fast as they could throw it out the window. OK then. When the restrictions were relaxed, I noticed something interesting. Some of the fast food places chose to not re-open their dining rooms. Some of the accountants realized those were operating at a loss, for they were providing patrons with something that cost the restaurant money but didn?t necessarily attract additional business. It was attracting homeless people however, who would sometimes sleep on the padded benches and bathe in the restrooms etc, which drove away customers and cost money to clean and maintein. Covid shutdowns offered a solution: shut down the dining room, keep the drive-thru and the DoorDash roaring full speed ahead. Result: fewer employees to pay, profits up, new business model emerged: drive thru only. People work in smaller groups, the product being sold is arguably less desirable for there is no restroom available, nor table, and the local Red Lobster doesn?t have a drive thru window, but no matter, for it shut down forever a year ago last June. One can look at it as a parallel process happening in the entertainment world: fewer big productions, replaced by smaller, more agile competitors creating a lower-cost alternative, the business analog of the dinosaurs vs the mammals when the covid asteroid came along and created the KT boundary. Advantage mammals. Hey no worries, I like mammals. I like them a lot. Much better than dinosaurs. I will leave you with a pleasant thought. Kurt Kuenne, the son of a colleague created this short video which I thought was great. He did it on a shoestring budget while working a 9 to 5 at the Spaghetti Factory and going to drama school at night. The actors were all volunteer, with only one, the main star, James Haven, with any previous acting experience (he is the son of actor Jon Voight.) He did this video free for Kirk while they were classmates. Note how little was spent. Imagine movies were mostly this kind of thing, free, low cost productions, created by talented amateurs. Well, OK. This one?s fun, free and is only 12 minutes. I give you the future of cinema: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2w9cKFiCrSU spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 17:57:30 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2021 10:57:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 'Copyright' (Was: Re: to my fellow renaissance life forms) In-Reply-To: References: <733c4859-ca6d-487d-c499-aee35fefdb95@zaiboc.net> <002a01d795c4$bb46b1a0$31d414e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 10:46 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 1:15 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I have wondered, now and then - between increasingly better 3D animation >> tools and available assets, text to speech where the better versions can >> pass for human, and of course one person can write a script - if it might >> be possible for one person to create an entire film that would entertain >> most people were they to see it. >> > > Not currently, no. It took all that Disney had to de-age Mark Hamill for > the Mandalorian finale and even that wasn't very convincing. We still can't > convincingly animate a person talking. > The first such efforts would be 3D animated movies, of course. Pixar has people talking in them all the time, and their animations are good enough. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 18:38:08 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2021 14:38:08 -0400 Subject: [ExI] 'Copyright' (Was: Re: to my fellow renaissance life forms) In-Reply-To: References: <733c4859-ca6d-487d-c499-aee35fefdb95@zaiboc.net> <002a01d795c4$bb46b1a0$31d414e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 1:59 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 10:46 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 1:15 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> I have wondered, now and then - between increasingly better 3D animation >>> tools and available assets, text to speech where the better versions can >>> pass for human, and of course one person can write a script - if it might >>> be possible for one person to create an entire film that would entertain >>> most people were they to see it. >>> >> >> Not currently, no. It took all that Disney had to de-age Mark Hamill for >> the Mandalorian finale and even that wasn't very convincing. We still can't >> convincingly animate a person talking. >> > > The first such efforts would be 3D animated movies, of course. Pixar has > people talking in them all the time, and their animations are good enough. > OK, so right now a Pixar movie is created by a large number of creatives: writers, directors, animators, composers, musicians, voice actors, etc. What a single person could right now wouldn't be comparable to that. A small team on a small budget, right now, could make a decent animated movie. The tools will get better--probably to the point where a single person could animate an entire movie. That still leaves writing the story, composing and performing the score, and doing the voice acting. Voice synthesis is also nowhere near ready to replace human voice actors. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 19:16:52 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2021 12:16:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 'Copyright' (Was: Re: to my fellow renaissance life forms) In-Reply-To: References: <733c4859-ca6d-487d-c499-aee35fefdb95@zaiboc.net> <002a01d795c4$bb46b1a0$31d414e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 11:39 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 1:59 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 10:46 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 1:15 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I have wondered, now and then - between increasingly better 3D >>>> animation tools and available assets, text to speech where the better >>>> versions can pass for human, and of course one person can write a script - >>>> if it might be possible for one person to create an entire film that would >>>> entertain most people were they to see it. >>>> >>> >>> Not currently, no. It took all that Disney had to de-age Mark Hamill for >>> the Mandalorian finale and even that wasn't very convincing. We still can't >>> convincingly animate a person talking. >>> >> >> The first such efforts would be 3D animated movies, of course. Pixar has >> people talking in them all the time, and their animations are good enough. >> > > OK, so right now a Pixar movie is created by a large number of creatives: > writers, directors, animators, composers, musicians, voice actors, etc. > What a single person could right now wouldn't be comparable to that. > Thus why I set the standards lower. Not necessarily Pixar-grade, just something that would entertain most people were they to see it. > The tools will get better--probably to the point where a single person > could animate an entire movie. That still leaves writing the story, > One person can do that. Single-author novels have long been a thing. > composing and performing the score, > Also already doable by single people. One recent famous example is Toby Fox, but he's far from the only person writing such length of scores solo. > and doing the voice acting. Voice synthesis is also nowhere near ready to > replace human voice actors. > Except that it is, in certain cases such as (again citing a famous example but far from the only example) the Vocaloids. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Fri Aug 20 19:19:09 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2021 20:19:09 +0100 Subject: [ExI] 'Copyright' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0dd00c06-b062-44d8-7588-ee1e4d54d6e2@zaiboc.net> On 20/08/2021 16:31, Dave Sill explained: > >> You may be free to record them, but once recorded they're >> copyrighted. > > What? > > Please explain how that makes any sense at all. > > Knowing what/where/when to record, having the expertise to do that, > and compiling it into a product that's good enough that people want to > hear it or copy it is a creative process that warrants intellectual > property protection under the law. It's pretty obvious that if someone > works hard enough to create something that others want, their efforts > deserve protection from theft. Ah, so you meant that once something original is recorded it /can be/ copyrighted. That's not how I read it. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 19:47:27 2021 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2021 12:47:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 'Copyright' In-Reply-To: <0dd00c06-b062-44d8-7588-ee1e4d54d6e2@zaiboc.net> References: <0dd00c06-b062-44d8-7588-ee1e4d54d6e2@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: One thing that?s missing in this discussion is actual data. There?s a lot of supposition ? to be sure, seeming reasonable suppositions like few artists (and their helpers) would produce art (whether film, music, literature, or whatnot) unless they had something like a copyright. Now this would seem to be somewhat amenable to empirical analysis, especially since there are entire industries without much in the way of copyright protection, such as food and fashion. Does anyone believe creativity is low in either of these industries that copyright protection would cure? Regards, Dan From sparge at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 19:51:58 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2021 15:51:58 -0400 Subject: [ExI] 'Copyright' In-Reply-To: <0dd00c06-b062-44d8-7588-ee1e4d54d6e2@zaiboc.net> References: <0dd00c06-b062-44d8-7588-ee1e4d54d6e2@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 3:25 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Ah, so you meant that once something original is recorded it *can be* > copyrighted. That's not how I read it > Sorry, I should have been clearer. -Dvae -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From guessmyneeds at yahoo.com Fri Aug 20 20:09:39 2021 From: guessmyneeds at yahoo.com (Sherry Knepper) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2021 20:09:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] Human Stupidity Explained In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1862391756.429406.1629490179259@mail.yahoo.com> I've noticed for a long time that people deal only with what's right in front of them, putting no thought into what can happen in the future as a result of what they do.? You also have the problems of an outsider looking in which should bring more objectivity, therefore more intelligence, but often the mistakes of others is not realized any more than one's own.? It is all part of not having a broad scope. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 4:46 AM, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: Human Stupidity Explained: A Study Published on the Scientific Journal "Systems" Thursday, August 19, 2021 Quotes: Let me explain: we all know that we are surrounded by stupidity: it truly pervades everything (the recent example of the end of the occupation of Afghanistan is just one of the many). This point had already been noted in the 1970s by Carlo Cipolla, an enlightened economist and historian. Cipolla had proposed "five laws of stupidity." The "third law," the basic one, is expressed as "A stupid person is a person who causes losses to another person or to a group of persons, while himself deriving no gain and even possibly incurring losses." ------- The idea came to us after having studied the history of whaling and of several other fisheries (that we report in our book "The Empty Sea"). A stupid whaler kills all the whales and is left with no resources to exploit. And it is exactly what happened in the 19th century when excessive hunting depleted the whale stock so much that the whaling industry collapsed. Why did whalers (and many other categories) behave in such a stupid way? Because they operated on a too short time scale, emphasizing short-term gains. This is the basis of the problem of overexploitation that has led us to the situation in which we are. ------- So, not surprising that the Lotka-Volterra model could give us some deep insight into Cipolla's intuition. According to our interpretation, stupidity occurs when the dissipation of an energy potential goes too fast: the result is what we call "overexploitation" in which people exploit a resource to the point of destroying it, and damage themselves in the process. Fortunately, we also found that these systems can adapt in the long run. In an evolutionary system, stupidity punishes itself, but it takes time. Unfortunately, we are still in the midst of what could be the greatest stupidity wave that the ecosystem ever saw in its nearly four billion years of existence. --------------------- BillK _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 20:11:36 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2021 13:11:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 'Copyright' In-Reply-To: References: <0dd00c06-b062-44d8-7588-ee1e4d54d6e2@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 12:49 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > there are entire industries without much in the way of copyright > protection, such as food and fashion. Does anyone believe creativity is low > in either of these industries that copyright protection would cure? > Food: copyright protection exists for recipes. The food itself, divorced from recipes, can bear creativity that is not easily copied: a given chef's style, for instance. Even fully automated chefs may be difficult to exactly replicate, down to the style-equivalent, by other vendors (without careful attention to detail that few ripoff artists are capable of). Fashion: while one might make a case that creativity in fashion is low in general, the applicable protection is more trademark than copyright. In addition, the fashion industry promotes a short obsolescence period to deal with this problem: by the time a fashion can be copied, the latest trends have moved on. The designers officially don't care if you can get last season's designs at half price: they're last season's designs, and that "half price" might as easily be the designers selling off their excess as some would-be competitor matching the design. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 20:11:34 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2021 16:11:34 -0400 Subject: [ExI] 'Copyright' In-Reply-To: References: <0dd00c06-b062-44d8-7588-ee1e4d54d6e2@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 3:49 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > One thing that?s missing in this discussion is actual data. There?s a lot > of supposition ? to be sure, seeming reasonable suppositions like few > artists (and their helpers) would produce art (whether film, music, > literature, or whatnot) unless they had something like a copyright. Now > this would seem to be somewhat amenable to empirical analysis, especially > since there are entire industries without much in the way of copyright > protection, such as food and fashion. Does anyone believe creativity is low > in either of these industries that copyright protection would cure? > Fashion is already covered by copyright and trademark, although counterfeiting is big business because of lax enforcement in the countries making money doing it. Cookbooks are covered by copyright. Individual recipes do get copied and passed around, but cookbooks still sell. As for the real art of food, like fine dining: it's not digitally copyable. You're an author, right? Are your works copyrighted or public domain? Mine is copyrighted because the publisher required it, but I would certainly have wanted it if they didn't. It's been pirated, of course, but still sold well. What about patents? Should we throw them out, too? Who would research and create new drugs without a cost-recovery mechanism? -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 20 20:41:29 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2021 13:41:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 'Copyright' In-Reply-To: References: <0dd00c06-b062-44d8-7588-ee1e4d54d6e2@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <006d01d79603$c28b0d00$47a12700$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dave Sill via extropy-chat ? >?What about patents? Should we throw them out, too? Who would research and create new drugs without a cost-recovery mechanism? -Dave Amateurs, working alone. The new drugs won?t work of course, but at least they will be free. The message in this whole discussion is very clear: without some kind of way to pay people for production of intellectual property, most people won?t do it. Market forces the quality away from Stevie Wonder toward Londre Sylvester . spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 00:24:21 2021 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2021 20:24:21 -0400 Subject: [ExI] 'Copyright' (Was: Re: to my fellow renaissance life forms) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3DC9AED6-1663-4EB4-82E6-8178D669507E@gmail.com> So the difference between two things, in your opinion is nothing. But I have to pretend their different because idiots made some law. You also feel it would be best if I never listened to new music or read new books, because of a difference you cannot explain. And because I never listen to or read anything new, I will never buy new albums or books, and thus I will provide even less income to these people, than I would if I read them and then purchased them. So yes, let me avoid all this ?piracy? and actually contribute even less money to creators than if I did pirate. That makes so much sense. SR Ballard > On Aug 20, 2021, at 8:12 AM, Dave Sill via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? >> On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 5:25 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: >> SR Ballard wrote: >> > I like their work, I give them money. It?s not complicated. >> > >> > I will often buy a physical or electronic copy of a book I have >> > pirated, if I liked it. I buy merch from bands, pay for concert >> > tickets, buy tracks. I donate money to streamers... >> > >> > Piracy is no different than borrowing your friend?s book/CD/movie. If >> > you enjoyed it, you?ll get a legit copy for yourself. >> >> Thank you, a lone sane voice among the brainwashed (so it seems to me, >> anyway). > > Piracy is *legally* different from borrowing because it's illegal. It may not make sense to you, but that's the law. > >> Ask Charlie Stross how he makes a living when he routinely puts his >> fiction on the web for anyone to read without any strings whatsoever. > > If Charlie Stross chooses to make his works available, that's great! But that doesn't mean that model will work for every creator. > >> My experience and opinion, is the same as SRB's. I have paid-for hard >> copies of several works of fiction (by Stross and others) that I first >> read for free. I decided that I wanted to give these guys money to >> encourage them to keep writing the stuff that I like. I have also read >> for free, stuff that I didn't like so much, and declined to give those >> authors money, not wanting to encourage them further. >> >> What could be fairer than that? > > If reading "for free" means reading an illegal copy, then what would be fairer would be to either read a legal copy or not read it at all. > >> The people who profit the most from the current system are the >> middle-men. The publishers and big media corporations. You know, the >> ones who lobby for these crazy copyright laws that benefit no-one but >> them. The sooner these parasites wither away, the better. > > Do away with copyrights, and publishers and big media corporations will go away, too. Say goodbye to movies that cost millions to make. You may be fine with that but I suspect the majority would not. > >> Regarding the notion that amateur musicians create nothing but >> poor-quality pap, consider what the word 'amateur' actually means. > > There are great amateurs and talentless pros. > >> And >> think about who is more likely to produce good music: Someone who does >> it for love, or someone who does it to pay the rent? > > Musicians have to pay their rent. > >> How many times have >> you heard second and third albums from promising bands, and thought "Not >> nearly as good as the first one"? Why do you think that is? > > Because the debut album usually comes from several years of writing and pressure to pay the bills, pressure from the label (e.g., via a contract), or just a desire to cash in while they can forces them to release subsequent albums before they've sufficient new material of the same quality. Or maybe they just can't do it again. Sometimes the well runs dry. > >> This is one area where I'm quite dismayed to see extropians so deeply >> entrenched in the same mental rut as the vast majority of people. We're >> supposed to be good at thinking outside the box and looking to a better >> future, not enthusiastically toeing the corporate party line that's >> threatening to drag us down into the kind of dystopia that Cory Doctorow >> etc. keep trying to alert us all to. > > We're talking about the current state of affairs. If you've got an idea for an improvement, let's hear it. > > I think copyright terms are too long. Shortening them from 50-100 years past the death of the creator to, say, 20 years from the date of publication, would still give creators enough protection to justify their efforts. > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 13:43:32 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2021 09:43:32 -0400 Subject: [ExI] 'Copyright' (Was: Re: to my fellow renaissance life forms) In-Reply-To: <3DC9AED6-1663-4EB4-82E6-8178D669507E@gmail.com> References: <3DC9AED6-1663-4EB4-82E6-8178D669507E@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 8:27 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > So the difference between two things, in your opinion is nothing. But I > have to pretend their different because idiots made some law. > No, there's a distinct difference between borrowing a legal copy and making an illegal one. If you don't see that, I'm sorry, but that's not my problem. You also feel it would be best if I never listened to new music or read new > books, because of a difference you cannot explain. > Don't put words in my mouth, please. I think it's better if most people follow the law. I don't personally care what you do. > And because I never listen to or read anything new, I will never buy new > albums or books, and thus I will provide even less income to these people, > than I would if I read them and then purchased them. > Join a library. Listen to the radio. Buy a computer or phone that allows you to play youtube videos or listen to radio stations and podcasts. Borrow from friends. > So yes, let me avoid all this ?piracy? and actually contribute even less > money to creators than if I did pirate. That makes so much sense. > Sounds to me like you're trying to rationalize your actions. That's fine by me. Do whatever it takes to feel good about yourself. I've ripped a CD or two in my life. Content producers know that this happens at the individual level and that preventing it is impossible. But when something like Napster comes along that really does impact them and is an easy legal target, it will get taken down. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 13:57:05 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2021 08:57:05 -0500 Subject: [ExI] libertarian ideas Message-ID: Do these square with what you know or think? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 15:14:50 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2021 10:14:50 -0500 Subject: [ExI] want to hear some rainbows? Message-ID: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQeC5i9c09M Too young to have the soul to play this, but still, WOW! bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sat Aug 21 20:02:43 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2021 21:02:43 +0100 Subject: [ExI] 'Copyright' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <64ccde13-6855-8fc5-399a-914cec712c09@zaiboc.net> On 20/08/2021 21:12, Spike wrote: > OK cool so what if? we transition to a time when anything that can be > digitized is free to anyone who will download it, radio transitions to > karaoke, musicians and authors work alone generally, actors work > mostly alone. So we find ways to make the process much simpler and > cheaper.? Making a film and an audio track is still a lotta work, for > which they either don?t get paid at all or if so not much. This is what the abundance economy is supposed to solve. People will still get together in groups to create complex things, just not in order to earn a living, but because they want to collaborate with others to create something good. If not getting paid resulted in people working alone, the whole FOSS movement wouldn't even exist, but it does, and that's even without an abundance economy. So, we transition not only to a time when digital goods are free, but to a time when people don't have to work in order to live. Ben From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 21 20:36:10 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2021 13:36:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 'Copyright' In-Reply-To: <64ccde13-6855-8fc5-399a-914cec712c09@zaiboc.net> References: <64ccde13-6855-8fc5-399a-914cec712c09@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <000201d796cc$2dcd8f20$8968ad60$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] 'Copyright' On 20/08/2021 21:12, Spike wrote: >>... OK cool so what if. we transition to a time when anything that can be > digitized is free to anyone who will download it... >...This is what the abundance economy is supposed to solve. People will still get together in groups to create complex things, just not in order to earn a living, but because they want to collaborate with others to create something good. If not getting paid resulted in people working alone, the whole FOSS movement wouldn't even exist, but it does, and that's even without an abundance economy. >...So, we transition not only to a time when digital goods are free, but to a time when people don't have to work in order to live. >...Ben _______________________________________________ Hi Ben, ja but the economy of abundance doesn't apply to some things, such as raw materials, energy and land. Regardless of how easily we can manufacture anything we want, there are fixed quantities of some things. spike From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 22:08:22 2021 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2021 18:08:22 -0400 Subject: [ExI] 'Copyright' (Was: Re: to my fellow renaissance life forms) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There?s literally no difference between reading a copy of a book you didn?t pay for, and reading a copy of a book you didn?t pay for. And no difference between listening to a song you didn?t purchase, and listening to a song you didn?t purchase. SR Ballard > On Aug 21, 2021, at 9:45 AM, Dave Sill via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? >> On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 8:27 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: > >> So the difference between two things, in your opinion is nothing. But I have to pretend their different because idiots made some law. > > No, there's a distinct difference between borrowing a legal copy and making an illegal one. If you don't see that, I'm sorry, but that's not my problem. > >> You also feel it would be best if I never listened to new music or read new books, because of a difference you cannot explain. > > Don't put words in my mouth, please. I think it's better if most people follow the law. I don't personally care what you do. > >> And because I never listen to or read anything new, I will never buy new albums or books, and thus I will provide even less income to these people, than I would if I read them and then purchased them. > > Join a library. Listen to the radio. Buy a computer or phone that allows you to play youtube videos or listen to radio stations and podcasts. Borrow from friends. > >> So yes, let me avoid all this ?piracy? and actually contribute even less money to creators than if I did pirate. That makes so much sense. > > Sounds to me like you're trying to rationalize your actions. That's fine by me. Do whatever it takes to feel good about yourself. I've ripped a CD or two in my life. Content producers know that this happens at the individual level and that preventing it is impossible. But when something like Napster comes along that really does impact them and is an easy legal target, it will get taken down. > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 22:31:30 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2021 17:31:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] 'Copyright' (Was: Re: to my fellow renaissance life forms) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It all depends on how it was obtained. A library book and a stolen book: both you did not pay for. But a huge difference. bill w On Sat, Aug 21, 2021 at 5:10 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > There?s literally no difference between reading a copy of a book you > didn?t pay for, and reading a copy of a book you didn?t pay for. And no > difference between listening to a song you didn?t purchase, and listening > to a song you didn?t purchase. > > SR Ballard > > On Aug 21, 2021, at 9:45 AM, Dave Sill via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ? > On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 8:27 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> So the difference between two things, in your opinion is nothing. But I >> have to pretend their different because idiots made some law. >> > > No, there's a distinct difference between borrowing a legal copy and > making an illegal one. If you don't see that, I'm sorry, but that's not my > problem. > > You also feel it would be best if I never listened to new music or read >> new books, because of a difference you cannot explain. >> > > Don't put words in my mouth, please. I think it's better if most people > follow the law. I don't personally care what you do. > > >> And because I never listen to or read anything new, I will never buy new >> albums or books, and thus I will provide even less income to these people, >> than I would if I read them and then purchased them. >> > > Join a library. Listen to the radio. Buy a computer or phone that allows > you to play youtube videos or listen to radio stations and podcasts. Borrow > from friends. > > >> So yes, let me avoid all this ?piracy? and actually contribute even less >> money to creators than if I did pirate. That makes so much sense. >> > > Sounds to me like you're trying to rationalize your actions. That's fine > by me. Do whatever it takes to feel good about yourself. I've ripped a CD > or two in my life. Content producers know that this happens at the > individual level and that preventing it is impossible. But when something > like Napster comes along that really does impact them and is an easy legal > target, it will get taken down. > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 23:32:59 2021 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2021 19:32:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] 'Copyright' (Was: Re: to my fellow renaissance life forms) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Pirating doesn?t ?steal a book?. It was never printed. The costs of me reading this book I don?t own are exactly the same as if I don?t read it. Stealing a book means someone paid to print that copy and now can?t sell it. I have never done something like that. SR Ballard > On Aug 21, 2021, at 6:33 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > It all depends on how it was obtained. A library book and a stolen book: both you did not pay for. But a huge difference. bill w > >> On Sat, Aug 21, 2021 at 5:10 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >> There?s literally no difference between reading a copy of a book you didn?t pay for, and reading a copy of a book you didn?t pay for. And no difference between listening to a song you didn?t purchase, and listening to a song you didn?t purchase. >> >> SR Ballard >> >>>> On Aug 21, 2021, at 9:45 AM, Dave Sill via extropy-chat wrote: >>>> >>> ? >>>> On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 8:27 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>>> So the difference between two things, in your opinion is nothing. But I have to pretend their different because idiots made some law. >>> >>> No, there's a distinct difference between borrowing a legal copy and making an illegal one. If you don't see that, I'm sorry, but that's not my problem. >>> >>>> You also feel it would be best if I never listened to new music or read new books, because of a difference you cannot explain. >>> >>> Don't put words in my mouth, please. I think it's better if most people follow the law. I don't personally care what you do. >>> >>>> And because I never listen to or read anything new, I will never buy new albums or books, and thus I will provide even less income to these people, than I would if I read them and then purchased them. >>> >>> Join a library. Listen to the radio. Buy a computer or phone that allows you to play youtube videos or listen to radio stations and podcasts. Borrow from friends. >>> >>>> So yes, let me avoid all this ?piracy? and actually contribute even less money to creators than if I did pirate. That makes so much sense. >>> >>> Sounds to me like you're trying to rationalize your actions. That's fine by me. Do whatever it takes to feel good about yourself. I've ripped a CD or two in my life. Content producers know that this happens at the individual level and that preventing it is impossible. But when something like Napster comes along that really does impact them and is an easy legal target, it will get taken down. >>> >>> -Dave >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Sun Aug 22 00:56:54 2021 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2021 17:56:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Thomas Seyfried and the Warburg Effect Message-ID: <20210821175654.Horde.SiXoMZvco_qNCd3l3848p1J@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> This is an hour long lecture by Dr. Thomas Seyfried PhD. who is a something of a maverick in cancer research. But he is an engaging and compelling speaker with loads of data, so his lecture goes by fast. In 1931, Otto Warburg discovered cancer cells can only be fueled by glucose metabolism and are unable to derive energy from the electron transport chain and oxidative phosphorylation. So almost a century later, why is the war against cancer still not incorporating his Nobel-level research into cancer treatments? He is absolutely right about the dogmatism of cancer being a genetic disease. It got hammered into me at when I was doing biomedical research at UCLA. Seyfried makes a compelling case that cancer is instead a metabolic disease of mitochondria. His approach uses the Warburg effect as an Achilles's heel to kill cancer with diet. Very practical stuff. Rafal would appreciate this so I hope he is lurking. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APwnkpD_BfI Here is ONE of his papers: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3941741/ Stuart LaForge From sparge at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 13:02:53 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2021 09:02:53 -0400 Subject: [ExI] libertarian ideas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 21, 2021, 9:59 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Do these square with what you know or think? > I agree with the things labeled Libertarian. I think the Left and Right ideals that aren't Libertarian are not worded impartially. -Dave > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Mon Aug 23 04:08:29 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2021 21:08:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 'Copyright' (Was: Re: to my fellow renaissance life forms) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: SR Ballard wrote: "Pirating doesn?t ?steal a book?. It was never printed. The costs of me reading this book I don?t own are exactly the same as if I don?t read it. Stealing a book means someone paid to print that copy and now can?t sell it. I have never done something like that." I wonder if anyone has made a sf comedy short film about an advanced "pirating" technology where just about anything can be scanned with a tricorder like device, and then copied with a transporter style home appliance? In the story, two feuding neighbors have a on-going conversation about the legalities and ethics involving pirating, even as one of them goes nuts making copies of just about anything he can scan and recreate at home! The conclusion has the pirating neighbor covertly making a copy of his neighbor's wife, which results in a woman who automatically leaves him and reunites with her husband, who now has two wives! Lol The final scene has the pirate being arrested by the police, as he admits to finally having gone too far. John : ) On Sat, Aug 21, 2021 at 4:35 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Pirating doesn?t ?steal a book?. It was never printed. The costs of me > reading this book I don?t own are exactly the same as if I don?t read it. > Stealing a book means someone paid to print that copy and now can?t sell > it. I have never done something like that. > > SR Ballard > > On Aug 21, 2021, at 6:33 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ? > It all depends on how it was obtained. A library book and a stolen book: > both you did not pay for. But a huge difference. bill w > > On Sat, Aug 21, 2021 at 5:10 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> There?s literally no difference between reading a copy of a book you >> didn?t pay for, and reading a copy of a book you didn?t pay for. And no >> difference between listening to a song you didn?t purchase, and listening >> to a song you didn?t purchase. >> >> SR Ballard >> >> On Aug 21, 2021, at 9:45 AM, Dave Sill via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> ? >> On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 8:27 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> So the difference between two things, in your opinion is nothing. But I >>> have to pretend their different because idiots made some law. >>> >> >> No, there's a distinct difference between borrowing a legal copy and >> making an illegal one. If you don't see that, I'm sorry, but that's not my >> problem. >> >> You also feel it would be best if I never listened to new music or read >>> new books, because of a difference you cannot explain. >>> >> >> Don't put words in my mouth, please. I think it's better if most people >> follow the law. I don't personally care what you do. >> >> >>> And because I never listen to or read anything new, I will never buy new >>> albums or books, and thus I will provide even less income to these people, >>> than I would if I read them and then purchased them. >>> >> >> Join a library. Listen to the radio. Buy a computer or phone that allows >> you to play youtube videos or listen to radio stations and podcasts. Borrow >> from friends. >> >> >>> So yes, let me avoid all this ?piracy? and actually contribute even less >>> money to creators than if I did pirate. That makes so much sense. >>> >> >> Sounds to me like you're trying to rationalize your actions. That's fine >> by me. Do whatever it takes to feel good about yourself. I've ripped a CD >> or two in my life. Content producers know that this happens at the >> individual level and that preventing it is impossible. But when something >> like Napster comes along that really does impact them and is an easy legal >> target, it will get taken down. >> >> -Dave >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lostmyelectron at protonmail.com Sun Aug 22 13:37:52 2021 From: lostmyelectron at protonmail.com (Gabe Waggoner) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2021 13:37:52 +0000 Subject: [ExI] libertarian ideas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0g3h31n1qhvRaeMRwU6Ahz6T0j1ebN9NYTFuNHMSwy-R-ruVBCdoHSEvj3FIccJgMijJ4CFWNgnHuRpRxnm3P6kUZTiYFMfMK3YcoTVwRJc=@protonmail.com> ??????? Original Message ??????? On Saturday, August 21st, 2021 at 1:57 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > Do these square with what you know or think? bill w I'm curious where this graphic came from. If this were a figure in something I were asked to edit, I'd query about the wording "pro anti-discrimination" to get inside the mind of the writer. That "pro" seems redundant to me. Isn't being "anti-" something implicitly being in favor of (pro-) being against it? People who are against discrimination could also be redundantly described as being anti?pro-discrimination?they're against being "for discrimination." Likewise, pro-life people are anti-abortion, but saying that a pro-life person is anti?pro-choice or that a pro-choice person is anti?pro-life seems unnecessarily detailed. Or is "pro?anti-discrimination" in some sense functionally different from just "anti-discrimination"? Maybe in terms of actively engaging in measures that counteract discrimination, whereas "anti-discrimination" is more passive, a belief or opinion that's less action oriented? Editorial overthinking: good times. Gabe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 22 13:59:52 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2021 06:59:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarian ideas In-Reply-To: <0g3h31n1qhvRaeMRwU6Ahz6T0j1ebN9NYTFuNHMSwy-R-ruVBCdoHSEvj3FIccJgMijJ4CFWNgnHuRpRxnm3P6kUZTiYFMfMK3YcoTVwRJc=@protonmail.com> References: <0g3h31n1qhvRaeMRwU6Ahz6T0j1ebN9NYTFuNHMSwy-R-ruVBCdoHSEvj3FIccJgMijJ4CFWNgnHuRpRxnm3P6kUZTiYFMfMK3YcoTVwRJc=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: <005301d7975d$fb05c110$f1114330$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Gabe Waggoner via extropy-chat Do these square with what you know or think? bill w >?.I'm curious where this graphic came from. If this were a figure in something I were asked to edit, I'd query about the wording "pro anti-discrimination" to get inside the mind of the writer?Gabe I thought that one was weird too Gabe. It would be clearer if written anti-pro-discrimination. Regarding the second amendment stuff, that one too is not at all clear. Gun rights have traditionally been associated with the right, but the strongest second amendment advocates are really better classified far left. The constitution recognizes Americans? right to bear arms, but states and cities claim the authority to ban them under amendment 9 and 10, and nearly everyone recognizes the right of the government to ban felons from bearing arms. The strongest second amendment advocates claim the right to bear arms unconditionally, anywhere regardless of their legal status as convicts, but do not go along with other notions typically associated with the political right-wing, only that one. It is time to rethink a lot of this, and update it. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 15:37:17 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2021 10:37:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] libertarian ideas In-Reply-To: <005301d7975d$fb05c110$f1114330$@rainier66.com> References: <0g3h31n1qhvRaeMRwU6Ahz6T0j1ebN9NYTFuNHMSwy-R-ruVBCdoHSEvj3FIccJgMijJ4CFWNgnHuRpRxnm3P6kUZTiYFMfMK3YcoTVwRJc=@protonmail.com> <005301d7975d$fb05c110$f1114330$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: In taking a gun away from someone, such as a felon or mental case (often much worse than a felon having one), how often do we take away the ability to go on living? If we are talking about ghetto living (any color, any nationality, any religion) you can take them away but there are so many illegal guns around they will get another for sure since they think they need it to live. They may be right. Outside the ghetto, how many people have lost their lives because they did not have a gun? How many people pull out a gun only to be killed by someone more adept at its use? Or kill someone thought to be an intruder (often a family member). Overall: just how important is a gun to our very survival? I think having a gun and maybe using it saves very few lives and takes a lot more just through accidental use by kids and such. I would certainly confiscate guns, used by kids to kill one another or themselves, from their parents and prohibit their getting any more (other than rifles and shotguns and maybe even then mandate strong protection from their accidental use - triggerlocks and whatever- ideally not able to be used by anyone other than the owner, just like the scifi novels- just when is this tech coming?). Bottom line: I support guns up to but not including automatic weapons for everyone except mental cases and felons. You? bill w On Sun, Aug 22, 2021 at 9:02 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Gabe Waggoner via extropy-chat > > Do these square with what you know or think? bill w > > > > >?.I'm curious where this graphic came from. If this were a figure in > something I were asked to edit, I'd query about the wording "pro > anti-discrimination" to get inside the mind of the writer?Gabe > > > > > > I thought that one was weird too Gabe. It would be clearer if written > anti-pro-discrimination. > > > > Regarding the second amendment stuff, that one too is not at all clear. > Gun rights have traditionally been associated with the right, but the > strongest second amendment advocates are really better classified far > left. The constitution recognizes Americans? right to bear arms, but > states and cities claim the authority to ban them under amendment 9 and 10, > and nearly everyone recognizes the right of the government to ban felons > from bearing arms. > > > > The strongest second amendment advocates claim the right to bear arms > unconditionally, anywhere regardless of their legal status as convicts, but > do not go along with other notions typically associated with the political > right-wing, only that one. > > > > It is time to rethink a lot of this, and update it. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 15:42:58 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2021 16:42:58 +0100 Subject: [ExI] libertarian ideas In-Reply-To: <0g3h31n1qhvRaeMRwU6Ahz6T0j1ebN9NYTFuNHMSwy-R-ruVBCdoHSEvj3FIccJgMijJ4CFWNgnHuRpRxnm3P6kUZTiYFMfMK3YcoTVwRJc=@protonmail.com> References: <0g3h31n1qhvRaeMRwU6Ahz6T0j1ebN9NYTFuNHMSwy-R-ruVBCdoHSEvj3FIccJgMijJ4CFWNgnHuRpRxnm3P6kUZTiYFMfMK3YcoTVwRJc=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Aug 2021 at 14:40, Gabe Waggoner via extropy-chat wrote: > > I'm curious where this graphic came from. If this were a figure in something I were asked to edit, I'd query about the wording "pro anti-discrimination" to get inside the mind of the writer. That "pro" seems redundant to me. Isn't being "anti-" something implicitly being in favor of (pro-) being against it? People who are against discrimination could also be redundantly described as being anti?pro-discrimination?they're against being "for discrimination." Likewise, pro-life people are anti-abortion, but saying that a pro-life person is anti?pro-choice or that a pro-choice person is anti?pro-life seems unnecessarily detailed. > > Or is "pro?anti-discrimination" in some sense functionally different from just "anti-discrimination"? Maybe in terms of actively engaging in measures that counteract discrimination, whereas "anti-discrimination" is more passive, a belief or opinion that's less action oriented? > > Editorial overthinking: good times. > > Gabe > _______________________________________________ After a bit of searching, the graphic appeared on the California Libertarian Party?s website 2017 platform. It was intended to present the LP as between the Rep and Dem parties. But caused some confusion as you noticed. The position was explained in detail in the platform. What they meant was the LP opposes government discrimination, but affirms the rights of individuals and businesses to discriminate. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 22 15:58:57 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2021 08:58:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarian ideas In-Reply-To: References: <0g3h31n1qhvRaeMRwU6Ahz6T0j1ebN9NYTFuNHMSwy-R-ruVBCdoHSEvj3FIccJgMijJ4CFWNgnHuRpRxnm3P6kUZTiYFMfMK3YcoTVwRJc=@protonmail.com> <005301d7975d$fb05c110$f1114330$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001001d7976e$9e1a9d20$da4fd760$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat ? >?Bottom line: I support guns up to but not including automatic weapons for everyone except mental cases and felons. You? bill w Billw, these discussions go off the tracks because of a misunderstanding or misuse of terms. For instance, most people think an AR-15 is an automatic. It isn?t. The AK-47 is not an automatic either, and neither of them are assault weapons (a term used often but incorrectly (an assault weapon is an automatic.)) An automatic fires continually as long as the trigger is held down until the ammo is exhausted. This definition does not apply to a pistol or handgun, because those cannot be continuous fire: they couldn?t be controlled. Regarding felons: I definitely do oppose their right to bear arms. They forfeit that right forever by committing a felony. Mental cases: who is a mental case? It must be defined in legal terms before it can be enforced by legal means. You are the most qualified person here to answer the question, being in the biz and a professor of that discipline. Usually felons forfeit the right to vote. No guns and no voting for felons. If no guns for mental cases, are mental cases allowed to vote? How do we determine who loses their right to vote, based on their mental state? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 16:24:40 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2021 11:24:40 -0500 Subject: [ExI] libertarian ideas ATTN: HENRY In-Reply-To: <001001d7976e$9e1a9d20$da4fd760$@rainier66.com> References: <0g3h31n1qhvRaeMRwU6Ahz6T0j1ebN9NYTFuNHMSwy-R-ruVBCdoHSEvj3FIccJgMijJ4CFWNgnHuRpRxnm3P6kUZTiYFMfMK3YcoTVwRJc=@protonmail.com> <005301d7975d$fb05c110$f1114330$@rainier66.com> <001001d7976e$9e1a9d20$da4fd760$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Mental cases: who is a mental case? It must be defined in legal terms before it can be enforced by legal means. You are the most qualified person here to answer the question, being in the biz and a professor of that discipline. spike (Henry, I hope what is below represents the past. I hope that there are newer ideas, which I hope you will share with us.) Spike, it's impossible. Legal theories are based on knowing right from wrong (a 19th century standard) ,which standard is also applied to the mentally retarded -an unfortunate standard in both cases. Even severely mentally retarded people have the basic understanding - stage 1 Kohlberg - it is wrong if you get punished for it (or right if you get rewarded). This is recognized as a moral stage. Yet society gets their underwear all in a knot when the mentally retarded come to trial for a capital offense. "They don't know what they are doing. They can't tell right from wrong." Totally wrong and misguided. I have worked with patients as low as IQ 25. Who can predict with any accuracy what a mentally ill person will do, or even is capable of doing? No one. We usually know what they can or will do after they have done it. Then some come forward, including parents, who say that they warned the police about their son (rarely daughter). But the police have their hands tied - no legal authority to do anything. At this point in time an impossible situation that really does need answers. Personally I would favor a bias that takes away guns from people with certain diagnoses - paranoid schizophrenia at the top of the list. And yet most of them don't do any harm to others their whole lives. It is hard enough for psychology to predict group statistics such as averages. It is impossible to accurately and reliably predict individuals. I am aware of the definition of an automatic weapon. Those guns which fire one bullet for each pull of the trigger are just about as dangerous. bill w On Sun, Aug 22, 2021 at 11:01 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *?* > > > > >?Bottom line: I support guns up to but not including automatic weapons > for everyone except mental cases and felons. You? bill w > > > > > > Billw, these discussions go off the tracks because of a misunderstanding > or misuse of terms. For instance, most people think an AR-15 is an > automatic. It isn?t. The AK-47 is not an automatic either, and neither of > them are assault weapons (a term used often but incorrectly (an assault > weapon is an automatic.)) An automatic fires continually as long as the > trigger is held down until the ammo is exhausted. This definition does not > apply to a pistol or handgun, because those cannot be continuous fire: they > couldn?t be controlled. > > > > Regarding felons: I definitely do oppose their right to bear arms. They > forfeit that right forever by committing a felony. > > > > Mental cases: who is a mental case? It must be defined in legal terms > before it can be enforced by legal means. You are the most qualified > person here to answer the question, being in the biz and a professor of > that discipline. > > > > Usually felons forfeit the right to vote. No guns and no voting for > felons. If no guns for mental cases, are mental cases allowed to vote? > How do we determine who loses their right to vote, based on their mental > state? > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 22 17:26:17 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2021 10:26:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarian ideas ATTN: HENRY In-Reply-To: References: <0g3h31n1qhvRaeMRwU6Ahz6T0j1ebN9NYTFuNHMSwy-R-ruVBCdoHSEvj3FIccJgMijJ4CFWNgnHuRpRxnm3P6kUZTiYFMfMK3YcoTVwRJc=@protonmail.com> <005301d7975d$fb05c110$f1114330$@rainier66.com> <001001d7976e$9e1a9d20$da4fd760$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004701d7977a$d14e1a80$73ea4f80$@rainier66.com> ?.> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] libertarian ideas ATTN: HENRY >>?Mental cases: who is a mental case? ? >?Who can predict with any accuracy what a mentally ill person will do, or even is capable of doing? No one. ?It is impossible to accurately and reliably predict individuals? Ja. Since we cannot determine who is a mental case for certain, we cannot use that as a criterion for taking away civil rights, such as gun ownership and voting. We don?t know how to convict someone of being a mental case. >? Personally I would favor a bias that takes away guns from people with certain diagnoses - paranoid schizophrenia at the top of the list? Ja. The problem is that we don?t really know how to convict someone of having paranoid schizophrenia. We don?t know how to determine if someone had a schizophrenic episode but now they are cured and deserve to have their gun rights and voting rights restored. It is even difficult to convict someone of paranoia based on their wanting to be armed, as they watch unarmed civilians in Afghanistan being murdered by the Taliban. These notions do have important consequences, which I have witnessed. For certain levels of security clearance, the clearance can be suspended or revoked for any reason, and they don?t always tell why it was suspended. There is nothing analogous to a trial: the security office calls in the employee, hand over the badge, this officer will escort you out, movers will pack your stuff and bring it out to you in the lobby. One of the things that can cause an arbitrary loss of clearance is being a mental case, but often the security office doesn?t know about that unless the clearance holder reports it, but that must be reported. Failure to do so is automatic adios clearance, adios job, probably adios career. So? plenty of clearance holders who damn well shoulda been seeing a psychologist or psychiatrist couldn?t risk their clearance (for then they would then lose their health insurance (and then wouldn?t be able to afford help from a mental health professional (or any kind of help (or anything else (such as food and rent)))) so? the most common route was go see a sympathetic pastor, who would perhaps cast out the demons of insanity and pray you suddenly stop being crazy, or a witch doctor who would dance and chant incantations, or? the most common route: tough it out, quiet and alone, usually while steadily getting worse. The pastor and the witch doctor are not reportable to the clearance office, for they are not mental health professionals. Being quietly insane was not reportable: they don?t ask if you are crazy or if you are seeing a pastor or witch doctor. Only if you are seeing a mental health professional. >?I am aware of the definition of an automatic weapon. Those guns which fire one bullet for each pull of the trigger are just about as dangerous. bill w Ja, and therein lies the problem. The second amendment is about arming of militias, and of course we want the militias to have dangerous weapons, sheesh of course we do. They are the civilian army, fer cryin out loud. But note? the legislators keep struggling to find a way to outlaw semi-autos if possible, arguing that they are dangerous too, but cannot really come right out and say they want to ban semi-autos, for most firearms sold today are semi-auto. A well-known politician running for POTUS ended his political career with one comment, starting with ?Hell yes?? Now the rest of them know to not go there. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 22 17:52:36 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2021 10:52:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarian ideas ATTN: HENRY In-Reply-To: <004701d7977a$d14e1a80$73ea4f80$@rainier66.com> References: <0g3h31n1qhvRaeMRwU6Ahz6T0j1ebN9NYTFuNHMSwy-R-ruVBCdoHSEvj3FIccJgMijJ4CFWNgnHuRpRxnm3P6kUZTiYFMfMK3YcoTVwRJc=@protonmail.com> <005301d7975d$fb05c110$f1114330$@rainier66.com> <001001d7976e$9e1a9d20$da4fd760$@rainier66.com> <004701d7977a$d14e1a80$73ea4f80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005801d7977e$7eaa1c30$7bfe5490$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com ?.> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] libertarian ideas ATTN: HENRY ? >>?I am aware of the definition of an automatic weapon. Those guns which fire one bullet for each pull of the trigger are just about as dangerous. bill w >?Ja, and therein lies the problem. The second amendment is about arming of militias, and of course we want the militias to have dangerous weapons, sheesh of course we do. They are the civilian army, fer cryin out loud?spike I am surprised this kind of discussion continues considering the horrifying events which unfolded last week. The Taliban army, said to consist of less than 50k fighters, managed to defeat a government-backed army over 5 times its size, after the Afghanistan president skipped town. An army operates on commands from above. If the commander in chief gets outta Dodge, the army stands down, for lack of orders. Well OK then. An army must have orders. But a militia does not. It is a volunteer civilian army. So? a city of nearly 5 million civilians was taken over by an army of less than 50k fighters, ratio about 100 to 1. Afghanistan doesn?t have a militia, as America does, and its citizens do not have the recognized right to bear arms as Americans do. So? those who worked with Americans, and in some cases American citizens, sit there, unarmed and completely helpless as the nation?s army stands down for lack of orders, waiting for the Taliban to come, identify them and murder them. What if? Afghanistan had recognized the right of citizens to bear arms? And what if? the government there saw to it that the citizenry had dangerous weapons, plenty of ammo and were trained in their use? The Taliban would have come into Kabul to meet an enormous armed civilian militia. Never mind a gun behind every bush: Afghanistan doesn?t have enough bushes to cover all the guns the murderous savages would be facing. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 18:31:37 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2021 19:31:37 +0100 Subject: [ExI] libertarian ideas ATTN: HENRY In-Reply-To: <005801d7977e$7eaa1c30$7bfe5490$@rainier66.com> References: <0g3h31n1qhvRaeMRwU6Ahz6T0j1ebN9NYTFuNHMSwy-R-ruVBCdoHSEvj3FIccJgMijJ4CFWNgnHuRpRxnm3P6kUZTiYFMfMK3YcoTVwRJc=@protonmail.com> <005301d7975d$fb05c110$f1114330$@rainier66.com> <001001d7976e$9e1a9d20$da4fd760$@rainier66.com> <004701d7977a$d14e1a80$73ea4f80$@rainier66.com> <005801d7977e$7eaa1c30$7bfe5490$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Aug 2021 at 18:55, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > I am surprised this kind of discussion continues considering the horrifying events which unfolded last week. > > The Taliban army, said to consist of less than 50k fighters, managed to defeat a government-backed army over 5 times its size, after the Afghanistan president skipped town. An army operates on commands from above. If the commander in chief gets outta Dodge, the army stands down, for lack of orders. > > Well OK then. An army must have orders. But a militia does not. It is a volunteer civilian army. > > So? a city of nearly 5 million civilians was taken over by an army of less than 50k fighters, ratio about 100 to 1. Afghanistan doesn?t have a militia, as America does, and its citizens do not have the recognized right to bear arms as Americans do. So? those who worked with Americans, and in some cases American citizens, sit there, unarmed and completely helpless as the nation?s army stands down for lack of orders, waiting for the Taliban to come, identify them and murder them. > > What if? Afghanistan had recognized the right of citizens to bear arms? And what if? the government there saw to it that the citizenry had dangerous weapons, plenty of ammo and were trained in their use? The Taliban would have come into Kabul to meet an enormous armed civilian militia. Never mind a gun behind every bush: Afghanistan doesn?t have enough bushes to cover all the guns the murderous savages would be facing. > > spike _______________________________________________ Spike, I don't think the US population has been very well informed about the true situation in Afghanistan. The US were the invaders in that country. The Middle East is tribal, they don't have the same civilisation that the US does. The Afghan population all have relatives in the Taliban. They have seen US drones killing civilians throughout the country. They were just taking the US resources and money and waiting until the US got fed up and left. The Taliban is now wearing US uniforms, carrying US weapons, driving US military vehicles and living in US barracks. One (of many) articles with an alternative view is here: The U.S. Government Lied For Two Decades About Afghanistan Using the same deceitful tactics they pioneered in Vietnam, U.S. political and military officials repeatedly misled the country about the prospects for success in Afghanistan. Glenn Greenwald Aug 16, 2021 Quote: The former soldier, whose job was to work in training programs for the Afghan police and also participated in training briefings for the Afghan military, described in detail why the program to train Afghan security forces was such an obvious failure and even a farce. ?I don?t think I could overstate that this was a system just basically designed for funneling money and wasting or losing equipment,? he said. In sum, ?as far as the US military presence there ? I just viewed it as a big money funneling operation?: an endless money pit for U.S. security contractors and Afghan warlords, all of whom knew that no real progress was being made, just sucking up as much U.S. taxpayer money as they could before the inevitable withdrawal and takeover by the Taliban. ----------------- BillK From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 22 18:48:34 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2021 11:48:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarian ideas ATTN: HENRY In-Reply-To: References: <0g3h31n1qhvRaeMRwU6Ahz6T0j1ebN9NYTFuNHMSwy-R-ruVBCdoHSEvj3FIccJgMijJ4CFWNgnHuRpRxnm3P6kUZTiYFMfMK3YcoTVwRJc=@protonmail.com> <005301d7975d$fb05c110$f1114330$@rainier66.com> <001001d7976e$9e1a9d20$da4fd760$@rainier66.com> <004701d7977a$d14e1a80$73ea4f80$@rainier66.com> <005801d7977e$7eaa1c30$7bfe5490$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007501d79786$507bc720$f1735560$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat ... _______________________________________________ Spike, >...I don't think the US population has been very well informed about the true situation in Afghanistan. >...The US were the invaders in that country. The Middle East is tribal, they don't have the same civilisation that the US does... BillK Agreed, BillK. I also agree the US and other western countries will eventually pull out, and why I have predicted that the US and other western powers will not take military action if China invades Taiwan. We sent a powerful message: you are on your own. Now consider the tribe that wants to be western, to join the modern world, the gays, the non-Muslims, women wanting an actual education, the kind of people who gravitated to Kabul. They aren't really a tribe exactly in the genetic sense, but they were a group with common interests and goals: they wanted to be modern and free. The Americans pulled out, the Afghan army stood down. Without a place to exist and without a well-armed citizen militia, the citizens of Kabul who want to be free are frantically trying to get out, to anywhere but there. Had the tribe in Kabul been given the chance to step up when the army stood down, the freedom tribe could have defended that place against a tribe of 50k fighters. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 18:58:08 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2021 13:58:08 -0500 Subject: [ExI] libertarian ideas ATTN: HENRY In-Reply-To: References: <0g3h31n1qhvRaeMRwU6Ahz6T0j1ebN9NYTFuNHMSwy-R-ruVBCdoHSEvj3FIccJgMijJ4CFWNgnHuRpRxnm3P6kUZTiYFMfMK3YcoTVwRJc=@protonmail.com> <005301d7975d$fb05c110$f1114330$@rainier66.com> <001001d7976e$9e1a9d20$da4fd760$@rainier66.com> <004701d7977a$d14e1a80$73ea4f80$@rainier66.com> <005801d7977e$7eaa1c30$7bfe5490$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Has the United States done anything anywhere in the Middle East that worked out right? What, in fact, were our motives? Try to be the world's policeman? Make tribal societies democratic? Having Israel as an ally has made our name mud, but I think that's the right thing to do. One for us. Directly or indirectly our country has killed many thousands of Middle Easterners. Let's just get out and stay out. I know the military wants to go somewhere and kill people with new tech. Otherwise why are we spending hundreds of millions on weapons? Did we not learn anything from history in Afghanistan? Nobody other than homegrown folks will do there. We should stay and fight for people who don't want us there? For people who won't fight their own fights? Biden will lose popularity because of Taliban massacres but he did the right thing. Did the Taliban do anything really different to protestors than we did at Kent State? Hardly comparable you say? How is that? We need to lay back and think about where we want to go - and it's not overseas!! We accuse other countries of things we do ourselves. I. e. we are hypocrites. Moral prigs. Self-righteous thugs. As China and Russia repeatedly say. As a wild and crazy idea, why don't we concentrate on helping other countries, the way China is doing in Africa. Tell me why not? Good people share things, and we have a lot to share with third world countries. bill On Sun, Aug 22, 2021 at 1:34 PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, 22 Aug 2021 at 18:55, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > I am surprised this kind of discussion continues considering the > horrifying events which unfolded last week. > > > > The Taliban army, said to consist of less than 50k fighters, managed to > defeat a government-backed army over 5 times its size, after the > Afghanistan president skipped town. An army operates on commands from > above. If the commander in chief gets outta Dodge, the army stands down, > for lack of orders. > > > > Well OK then. An army must have orders. But a militia does not. It is > a volunteer civilian army. > > > > So? a city of nearly 5 million civilians was taken over by an army of > less than 50k fighters, ratio about 100 to 1. Afghanistan doesn?t have a > militia, as America does, and its citizens do not have the recognized right > to bear arms as Americans do. So? those who worked with Americans, and in > some cases American citizens, sit there, unarmed and completely helpless as > the nation?s army stands down for lack of orders, waiting for the Taliban > to come, identify them and murder them. > > > > What if? Afghanistan had recognized the right of citizens to bear arms? > And what if? the government there saw to it that the citizenry had > dangerous weapons, plenty of ammo and were trained in their use? The > Taliban would have come into Kabul to meet an enormous armed civilian > militia. Never mind a gun behind every bush: Afghanistan doesn?t have > enough bushes to cover all the guns the murderous savages would be facing. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > > > Spike, > I don't think the US population has been very well informed about the > true situation in Afghanistan. > The US were the invaders in that country. The Middle East is tribal, > they don't have the same civilisation that the US does. The Afghan > population > all have relatives in the Taliban. They have seen US drones killing > civilians throughout the country. They were just taking the US > resources and money and waiting until the US got fed up and left. > The Taliban is now wearing US uniforms, carrying US weapons, driving > US military vehicles and living in US barracks. > > One (of many) articles with an alternative view is here: > > > The U.S. Government Lied For Two Decades About Afghanistan > Using the same deceitful tactics they pioneered in Vietnam, U.S. > political and military officials repeatedly misled the country about > the prospects for success in Afghanistan. > > Glenn Greenwald Aug 16, 2021 > Quote: > The former soldier, whose job was to work in training programs for the > Afghan police and also participated in training briefings for the > Afghan military, described in detail why the program to train Afghan > security forces was such an obvious failure and even a farce. ?I don?t > think I could overstate that this was a system just basically designed > for funneling money and wasting or losing equipment,? he said. In sum, > ?as far as the US military presence there ? I just viewed it as a big > money funneling operation?: an endless money pit for U.S. security > contractors and Afghan warlords, all of whom knew that no real > progress was being made, just sucking up as much U.S. taxpayer money > as they could before the inevitable withdrawal and takeover by the > Taliban. > ----------------- > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 19:02:59 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2021 14:02:59 -0500 Subject: [ExI] libertarian ideas ATTN: HENRY In-Reply-To: <007501d79786$507bc720$f1735560$@rainier66.com> References: <0g3h31n1qhvRaeMRwU6Ahz6T0j1ebN9NYTFuNHMSwy-R-ruVBCdoHSEvj3FIccJgMijJ4CFWNgnHuRpRxnm3P6kUZTiYFMfMK3YcoTVwRJc=@protonmail.com> <005301d7975d$fb05c110$f1114330$@rainier66.com> <001001d7976e$9e1a9d20$da4fd760$@rainier66.com> <004701d7977a$d14e1a80$73ea4f80$@rainier66.com> <005801d7977e$7eaa1c30$7bfe5490$@rainier66.com> <007501d79786$507bc720$f1735560$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, maybe we should have armed the citizenry in Afghanistan. We poured trillions of dollars in there - would buy a lot of weapons. bill w On Sun, Aug 22, 2021 at 1:50 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of > BillK via extropy-chat > ... > _______________________________________________ > > > Spike, > >...I don't think the US population has been very well informed about the > true situation in Afghanistan. > >...The US were the invaders in that country. The Middle East is tribal, > they don't have the same civilisation that the US does... BillK > > Agreed, BillK. I also agree the US and other western countries will > eventually pull out, and why I have predicted that the US and other western > powers will not take military action if China invades Taiwan. We sent a > powerful message: you are on your own. > > Now consider the tribe that wants to be western, to join the modern world, > the gays, the non-Muslims, women wanting an actual education, the kind of > people who gravitated to Kabul. They aren't really a tribe exactly in the > genetic sense, but they were a group with common interests and goals: they > wanted to be modern and free. The Americans pulled out, the Afghan army > stood down. Without a place to exist and without a well-armed citizen > militia, the citizens of Kabul who want to be free are frantically trying > to get out, to anywhere but there. > > Had the tribe in Kabul been given the chance to step up when the army > stood down, the freedom tribe could have defended that place against a > tribe of 50k fighters. > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 22 20:38:46 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2021 13:38:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarian ideas ATTN: HENRY In-Reply-To: References: <0g3h31n1qhvRaeMRwU6Ahz6T0j1ebN9NYTFuNHMSwy-R-ruVBCdoHSEvj3FIccJgMijJ4CFWNgnHuRpRxnm3P6kUZTiYFMfMK3YcoTVwRJc=@protonmail.com> <005301d7975d$fb05c110$f1114330$@rainier66.com> <001001d7976e$9e1a9d20$da4fd760$@rainier66.com> <004701d7977a$d14e1a80$73ea4f80$@rainier66.com> <005801d7977e$7eaa1c30$7bfe5490$@rainier66.com> <007501d79786$507bc720$f1735560$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002501d79795$b545c9d0$1fd15d70$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] libertarian ideas ATTN: HENRY >?Spike, maybe we should have armed the citizenry in Afghanistan. We poured trillions of dollars in there - would buy a lot of weapons. bill w Ja Billw, but that makes it sound like we would be buying the weapons. Given an acknowledgement of their rights, they would buy their own weapons and ammo, the way our militia does. It isn?t ?we? who have armed citizenry, it is Afghan citizenry which has an armed citizenry. That doesn?t cost us anything and they don?t owe anyone anything. Any disarmed civilian population creates an attractive target for things like the holocaust of the 1940s and like this catastrophe currently unfolding in Afghanistan. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Sun Aug 22 21:55:00 2021 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2021 17:55:00 -0400 Subject: [ExI] 'Copyright' In-Reply-To: <000201d796cc$2dcd8f20$8968ad60$@rainier66.com> References: <000201d796cc$2dcd8f20$8968ad60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <8D4602E7-83F5-442B-A0DB-164B0FC29099@alumni.virginia.edu> To me, this comes down to Spike?s observations about a free market being true but only while we are still under a Capitalist system. Artists have to work within that system if they want to make a living as an artist. I?ll submit many if not most artists start by making their work for free. Go take a look around SoundCloud for example. Artists there are hoping to get recognized and ?sponsored,? if you will, by a record label for example or noticed by a celebrity who will post about their track. I?m part of a community where I live centered around a gallery where over 30 local artists sell their works. These are painters, sculptors, photographers, glass blowers, and the like. All but maybe one of them earn a living other than selling their art. They all have their jobs probably closely related to their art, but they are not living off their art. I think that is likely the norm as an artist. So artists will continue to produce what they do, but a Capitalist system confines how they?re going to operate. If there were something like universal basic income or more widespread State sponsoring of artists, then you might see a different process playing out. And in a non-Capitalist system you will definitely see a different process play out. But there will still be artists producing. We are seeing that digital information is more difficult to treat as property or capital. Infinite identical copies can be made and easily distributed. NFTs are an attempt to change that. But it seems technology (evolution) is running up against a Capitalist paradigm that will continue to have trouble containing it. The cat?s out of the bag. Artists are adapting in some cases. Musical artist for example largely count on touring income, merch sales, and patreon contributions in part to survive, at least once one gets away from the major labels. Speaking for myself as a DJ and producer, I?ve made more money on my side business renting sound gear than as an artist. Spotify pays me 5-10 cents per play. I?m not getting rich that way. And I make more as a psychologist than many musical artists anyway. I self-fund my art at this point. I?m fortunate in that way. Nothing will stop any true artist from producing art?although the Taliban and the Chinese government certainly try. It often take death to stop an artist. -Henry > On Aug 21, 2021, at 4:36 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Ben > Zaiboc via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] 'Copyright' > > On 20/08/2021 21:12, Spike wrote: >>> ... OK cool so what if. we transition to a time when anything that can be >> digitized is free to anyone who will download it... > > >> ...This is what the abundance economy is supposed to solve. People will > still get together in groups to create complex things, just not in order to > earn a living, but because they want to collaborate with others to create > something good. If not getting paid resulted in people working alone, the > whole FOSS movement wouldn't even exist, but it does, and that's even > without an abundance economy. > >> ...So, we transition not only to a time when digital goods are free, but to > a time when people don't have to work in order to live. > >> ...Ben > > _______________________________________________ > > > Hi Ben, ja but the economy of abundance doesn't apply to some things, such > as raw materials, energy and land. Regardless of how easily we can > manufacture anything we want, there are fixed quantities of some things. > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 21:55:47 2021 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2021 17:55:47 -0400 Subject: [ExI] 'Copyright' (Was: Re: to my fellow renaissance life forms) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Lol, I?d watch that sitcom. SR Ballard > On Aug 22, 2021, at 9:12 AM, John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > SR Ballard wrote: > "Pirating doesn?t ?steal a book?. It was never printed. The costs of me reading this book I don?t own are exactly the same as if I don?t read it. Stealing a book means someone paid to print that copy and now can?t sell it. I have never done something like that." > > I wonder if anyone has made a sf comedy short film about an advanced "pirating" technology where just about anything can be scanned with a tricorder like device, and then copied with a transporter style home appliance? In the story, two feuding neighbors have a on-going conversation about the legalities and ethics involving pirating, even as one of them goes nuts making copies of just about anything he can scan and recreate at home! The conclusion has the pirating neighbor covertly making a copy of his neighbor's wife, which results in a woman who automatically leaves him and reunites with her husband, who now has two wives! Lol The final scene has the pirate being arrested by the police, as he admits to finally having gone too far. > > John : ) > > >> On Sat, Aug 21, 2021 at 4:35 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >> Pirating doesn?t ?steal a book?. It was never printed. The costs of me reading this book I don?t own are exactly the same as if I don?t read it. Stealing a book means someone paid to print that copy and now can?t sell it. I have never done something like that. >> >> SR Ballard >> >>>> On Aug 21, 2021, at 6:33 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >>>> >>> ? >>> It all depends on how it was obtained. A library book and a stolen book: both you did not pay for. But a huge difference. bill w >>> >>>> On Sat, Aug 21, 2021 at 5:10 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >>>> There?s literally no difference between reading a copy of a book you didn?t pay for, and reading a copy of a book you didn?t pay for. And no difference between listening to a song you didn?t purchase, and listening to a song you didn?t purchase. >>>> >>>> SR Ballard >>>> >>>>>> On Aug 21, 2021, at 9:45 AM, Dave Sill via extropy-chat wrote: >>>>>> >>>>> ? >>>>>> On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 8:27 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> So the difference between two things, in your opinion is nothing. But I have to pretend their different because idiots made some law. >>>>> >>>>> No, there's a distinct difference between borrowing a legal copy and making an illegal one. If you don't see that, I'm sorry, but that's not my problem. >>>>> >>>>>> You also feel it would be best if I never listened to new music or read new books, because of a difference you cannot explain. >>>>> >>>>> Don't put words in my mouth, please. I think it's better if most people follow the law. I don't personally care what you do. >>>>> >>>>>> And because I never listen to or read anything new, I will never buy new albums or books, and thus I will provide even less income to these people, than I would if I read them and then purchased them. >>>>> >>>>> Join a library. Listen to the radio. Buy a computer or phone that allows you to play youtube videos or listen to radio stations and podcasts. Borrow from friends. >>>>> >>>>>> So yes, let me avoid all this ?piracy? and actually contribute even less money to creators than if I did pirate. That makes so much sense. >>>>> >>>>> Sounds to me like you're trying to rationalize your actions. That's fine by me. Do whatever it takes to feel good about yourself. I've ripped a CD or two in my life. Content producers know that this happens at the individual level and that preventing it is impossible. But when something like Napster comes along that really does impact them and is an easy legal target, it will get taken down. >>>>> >>>>> -Dave >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 22 22:19:56 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2021 15:19:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 'Copyright' In-Reply-To: <8D4602E7-83F5-442B-A0DB-164B0FC29099@alumni.virginia.edu> References: <000201d796cc$2dcd8f20$8968ad60$@rainier66.com> <8D4602E7-83F5-442B-A0DB-164B0FC29099@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: <001601d797a3$d74b51e0$85e1f5a0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: Henry Rivera >...many if not most artists start by making their work for free. ... I?m part of a community where I live centered around a gallery where over 30 local artists sell their works. ... -Henry Henry we have a guy over here whose rookie works are so good, they are getting tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands per painting: https://www.npr.org/2021/07/14/1015895944/the-latest-ethical-pitfalls-involving-joe-bidens-son-hunter No painter in history has done this before. spike From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Sun Aug 22 22:28:13 2021 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2021 18:28:13 -0400 Subject: [ExI] 'Copyright' In-Reply-To: <001601d797a3$d74b51e0$85e1f5a0$@rainier66.com> References: <001601d797a3$d74b51e0$85e1f5a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I?m not even gonna touch that. Lol. Looks like that might be a borderline political post. Tsk tsk Side note: I have a friend from high school using AI of sorts to make art: https://www.cloudpainter.com/ Is it art? I say yes. > On Aug 22, 2021, at 6:20 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Henry Rivera > > >> ...many if not most artists start by making their work for free. ... I?m part of a community where I live centered around a gallery where over 30 local artists sell their works. ... -Henry > > > > Henry we have a guy over here whose rookie works are so good, they are getting tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands per painting: > > https://www.npr.org/2021/07/14/1015895944/the-latest-ethical-pitfalls-involving-joe-bidens-son-hunter > > No painter in history has done this before. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 22:45:22 2021 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2021 18:45:22 -0400 Subject: [ExI] 'Copyright' In-Reply-To: <8D4602E7-83F5-442B-A0DB-164B0FC29099@alumni.virginia.edu> References: <8D4602E7-83F5-442B-A0DB-164B0FC29099@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: <364E8509-98C6-4245-922D-1E6EFC64B51B@gmail.com> I write, and have publicly posted my works for free since I joined this list in my Junior year of HS (16yo), some of it more serious than others. Some fiction, mainly non-fiction. I?m currently doing pericope-by-pericope analysis of a Right Wing author, and I have gotten a few hundred eyeballs on my work but I don?t make any money from it. If I actually manage to complete my analysis of the whole book (possible but unlikely) then I?ll edit it and self-publish it. It?s such a niche topic that I doubt I would sell more than 5-10 copies, but that?s not because the materials are available online for free, but simply because demand is very low. I think it?s normal and healthy for most artists/musicians/writers to have ?day jobs?. SR Ballard > On Aug 22, 2021, at 5:57 PM, Henry Rivera via extropy-chat wrote: > > ?To me, this comes down to Spike?s observations about a free market being true but only while we are still under a Capitalist system. Artists have to work within that system if they want to make a living as an artist. > > I?ll submit many if not most artists start by making their work for free. Go take a look around SoundCloud for example. Artists there are hoping to get recognized and ?sponsored,? if you will, by a record label for example or noticed by a celebrity who will post about their track. I?m part of a community where I live centered around a gallery where over 30 local artists sell their works. These are painters, sculptors, photographers, glass blowers, and the like. All but maybe one of them earn a living other than selling their art. They all have their jobs probably closely related to their art, but they are not living off their art. I think that is likely the norm as an artist. > > So artists will continue to produce what they do, but a Capitalist system confines how they?re going to operate. If there were something like universal basic income or more widespread State sponsoring of artists, then you might see a different process playing out. And in a non-Capitalist system you will definitely see a different process play out. But there will still be artists producing. > > We are seeing that digital information is more difficult to treat as property or capital. Infinite identical copies can be made and easily distributed. NFTs are an attempt to change that. But it seems technology (evolution) is running up against a Capitalist paradigm that will continue to have trouble containing it. The cat?s out of the bag. Artists are adapting in some cases. Musical artist for example largely count on touring income, merch sales, and patreon contributions in part to survive, at least once one gets away from the major labels. > > Speaking for myself as a DJ and producer, I?ve made more money on my side business renting sound gear than as an artist. Spotify pays me 5-10 cents per play. I?m not getting rich that way. And I make more as a psychologist than many musical artists anyway. I self-fund my art at this point. I?m fortunate in that way. Nothing will stop any true artist from producing art?although the Taliban and the Chinese government certainly try. It often take death to stop an artist. > > -Henry > >> On Aug 21, 2021, at 4:36 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> ? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Ben >> Zaiboc via extropy-chat >> Subject: Re: [ExI] 'Copyright' >> >> On 20/08/2021 21:12, Spike wrote: >>>> ... OK cool so what if. we transition to a time when anything that can be >>> digitized is free to anyone who will download it... >> >> >>> ...This is what the abundance economy is supposed to solve. People will >> still get together in groups to create complex things, just not in order to >> earn a living, but because they want to collaborate with others to create >> something good. If not getting paid resulted in people working alone, the >> whole FOSS movement wouldn't even exist, but it does, and that's even >> without an abundance economy. >> >>> ...So, we transition not only to a time when digital goods are free, but to >> a time when people don't have to work in order to live. >> >>> ...Ben >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> Hi Ben, ja but the economy of abundance doesn't apply to some things, such >> as raw materials, energy and land. Regardless of how easily we can >> manufacture anything we want, there are fixed quantities of some things. >> >> spike >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From bronto at pobox.com Mon Aug 23 02:05:10 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2021 19:05:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarian ideas ATTN: HENRY In-Reply-To: <005801d7977e$7eaa1c30$7bfe5490$@rainier66.com> References: <0g3h31n1qhvRaeMRwU6Ahz6T0j1ebN9NYTFuNHMSwy-R-ruVBCdoHSEvj3FIccJgMijJ4CFWNgnHuRpRxnm3P6kUZTiYFMfMK3YcoTVwRJc=@protonmail.com> <005301d7975d$fb05c110$f1114330$@rainier66.com> <001001d7976e$9e1a9d20$da4fd760$@rainier66.com> <004701d7977a$d14e1a80$73ea4f80$@rainier66.com> <005801d7977e$7eaa1c30$7bfe5490$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <070c80fa-6bca-571b-9dca-c273bce0134d@pobox.com> On 2021-8-22 10:52, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > What if? Afghanistan had recognized the right of citizens to bear arms? > And what if? the government there saw to it that the citizenry had > dangerous weapons, plenty of ammo and were trained in their use?? The > Taliban would have come into Kabul to meet an enormous armed civilian > militia. Reminds me of this: https://bendwavy.org/wp/?p=1195 -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 23 04:19:27 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2021 21:19:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] not political Message-ID: <001b01d797d6$10451f80$30cf5e80$@rainier66.com> This might seem like a post about American politics, but it isn?t. Read on please. California is trying to recall its governor. We get the usual collection of goofball candidates mixed in with about a couple dozen serious ones who have managed to delude themselves into thinking they could get elected. They are printed in a voter pamphlet with their short essays on why they would be a great governor and yakkity yak and bla bla. On one of the pages we see a candidate named Angelyne, of the No Preference party: He or she offers his or her profession as Billboard Queen, Icon. His or her entire essay is two words: Experienced politician. Half a page, blank, but he or she helpfully offers a snail mail @, an email @, a Twitter and Instagram: So someone blew nearly four thousand bucks to have a blank half a page. Absurd! Then? it suddenly occurred to me: there are 22 million registered voters in California. What a bargain! This is the lowest cost advertising in history. That?s over 5000 registered voters per dollar. Anyone could tell 22 million people anything for a mere pittance really. Angelyne decided to just tell people where he or she is and how he or she can be reached. Speculation: plenty of people will get this. In the next California governor?s election, we will get plenty of stuff like: I opened this transmission shop 6 years ago at 235 Schmerdly Avenue in Ventura after working my way thru mechanics? school without a loan. I decided if I can fix California the way I fix transmissions, everything would be perfect! California will run like your car will after I have worked on it? etc. I can easily see having just one sex worker realize this is a golden opportunity to advertise will cause a million others to realize the same truth. Oh what an opportunity. We aughta be able to cash in on this silliness somehow. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 4625 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image007.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 14125 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bronto at pobox.com Mon Aug 23 05:51:17 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2021 22:51:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] not political In-Reply-To: <001b01d797d6$10451f80$30cf5e80$@rainier66.com> References: <001b01d797d6$10451f80$30cf5e80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On 2021-8-22 21:19, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > On one of the pages we see a candidate named Angelyne, > of the No Preference party: > > He or she offers his or her profession as Billboard Queen, Icon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelyne Last time I heard of her was another recall election! -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 23 12:08:22 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2021 05:08:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] not political In-Reply-To: References: <001b01d797d6$10451f80$30cf5e80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001301d79817$92445320$b6ccf960$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of Anton Sherwood via extropy- On 2021-8-22 21:19, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > On one of the pages we see a candidate named Angelyne, of the No > Preference party: > > He or she offers his or her profession as Billboard Queen, Icon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelyne >...Last time I heard of her was another recall election! -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org _______________________________________________ Heh. OK, well then. At some point we must recognize that whatever talent or skills one has, a good promoter can amplify it. If one has insufficient talent and skill to afford or attract a promoter (one is not Elvis Presley) but one has talent at self-promotion, that works too. The best promoter is one who makes the most from the least. At some point there is the very best self-promoter ever, who self-promotes based on the talent of being an excellent self-promoter. I looked up what it takes to get on the ballot. You can get there without paying, if you have a few thousand signatures. A billboard queen (female of all things!) could get in a bikini in a public place (California after all) and get all those easily enough, even in this case when she is over 70. Sheesh, I have half a mind to vote for her, just for coming up with a cool inspiring idea. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Aug 23 13:49:38 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2021 08:49:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] libertarian ideas ATTN: HENRY In-Reply-To: <002501d79795$b545c9d0$1fd15d70$@rainier66.com> References: <0g3h31n1qhvRaeMRwU6Ahz6T0j1ebN9NYTFuNHMSwy-R-ruVBCdoHSEvj3FIccJgMijJ4CFWNgnHuRpRxnm3P6kUZTiYFMfMK3YcoTVwRJc=@protonmail.com> <005301d7975d$fb05c110$f1114330$@rainier66.com> <001001d7976e$9e1a9d20$da4fd760$@rainier66.com> <004701d7977a$d14e1a80$73ea4f80$@rainier66.com> <005801d7977e$7eaa1c30$7bfe5490$@rainier66.com> <007501d79786$507bc720$f1735560$@rainier66.com> <002501d79795$b545c9d0$1fd15d70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Sharia. Just how much of all the bad things happening in the Middle East do you think we can blame on Islam? In Western civilization Christianity got put in its place, so to speak and does not have anywhere near the influence it had before the Renaissance. I do wish that would happen to Islam bill w On Sun, Aug 22, 2021 at 3:41 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] libertarian ideas ATTN: HENRY > > > > >?Spike, maybe we should have armed the citizenry in Afghanistan. We > poured trillions of dollars in there - would buy a lot of weapons. bill w > > > > > > Ja Billw, but that makes it sound like we would be buying the weapons. > Given an acknowledgement of their rights, they would buy their own weapons > and ammo, the way our militia does. It isn?t ?we? who have armed > citizenry, it is Afghan citizenry which has an armed citizenry. That > doesn?t cost us anything and they don?t owe anyone anything. > > > > Any disarmed civilian population creates an attractive target for things > like the holocaust of the 1940s and like this catastrophe currently > unfolding in Afghanistan. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Aug 23 15:51:10 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2021 08:51:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] not political In-Reply-To: <001b01d797d6$10451f80$30cf5e80$@rainier66.com> References: <001b01d797d6$10451f80$30cf5e80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 22, 2021, 9:21 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Then? it suddenly occurred to me: there are 22 million registered voters > in California. > > > > What a bargain! This is the lowest cost advertising in history. That?s > over 5000 registered voters per dollar. Anyone could tell 22 million > people anything for a mere pittance really. > I considered doing that, but I am too busy with other projects just now, which saying something that way would interfere with. But this was foreseeable from the last recall. Someone with more bandwidth could have put forth a transhumanist platform that might have gotten more attention than the Presidential runs. There's talk of making it significantly more costly next time, in part to discourage independent candidates. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon Aug 23 15:59:50 2021 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2021 08:59:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarian ideas ATTN: HENRY In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <88061B42-8A7C-41B7-B031-997F632BDD4D@gmail.com> On Aug 23, 2021, at 6:52 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > Sharia. Just how much of all the bad things happening in the Middle East do you think we can blame on Islam? In Western civilization Christianity got put in its place, so to speak and does not have anywhere near the influence it had before the Renaissance. I do wish that would happen to Islam bill w I believe it?s way more complicated than that, and the Renaissance (which one? the Italian one?) was not really the watershed some make it to be. In fact, with Europe it?s really the wars of religion that came in the wake of the Reformation that lead to secularization. And actual secularization ? the state not only tolerating different religions but itself becoming non-religious is kind of an outcome of the Enlightenment. (John Locke also had a huge influence here. Of course, he had a lot of influence on the Enlightenment itself.) (This is kind of like persecution of witches. That?s generally something that arises after the Middle Ages, though most people associate it with the Middle Ages.) The wars of religion gave rise to some level tolerance, too, not so much because everyone became enlightened but because they were so genocidal. The Thirty Years War (01618-01648 CE) killed over 4 million, with some estimates as high as 12 million. It?s thought that some regions of what?s now Germany lost most of their population. In other words, they were virtually depopulated. Regards, Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Aug 23 18:04:47 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2021 13:04:47 -0500 Subject: [ExI] of course! Message-ID: We, the extreme introverts, could have told you this: https://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/psychology-leadership-introverts-yale.html bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Mon Aug 23 23:09:49 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2021 16:09:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarian ideas ATTN: HENRY In-Reply-To: <88061B42-8A7C-41B7-B031-997F632BDD4D@gmail.com> References: <88061B42-8A7C-41B7-B031-997F632BDD4D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <65f987e3-5d07-3d65-6e1f-ddf226fad654@pobox.com> > On Aug 23, 2021, at 6:52 AM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: >> [...] In Western civilization >> Christianity got put in its place, so to speak and does not have >> anywhere near the influence it had before the Renaissance. I do wish >> that would happen to Islam bill w On 2021-8-23 08:59, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: > I believe it?s way more complicated than that, and the Renaissance > (which one? the Italian one?) was not really the watershed some make > it to be. In fact, with Europe it?s really the wars of religion that > came in the wake of the Reformation that lead to secularization. [...] Whatever was before the Renaissance was also before the Reformation, so Bill's not wrong :P -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Aug 24 00:01:17 2021 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2021 17:01:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarian ideas ATTN: HENRY In-Reply-To: <65f987e3-5d07-3d65-6e1f-ddf226fad654@pobox.com> References: <65f987e3-5d07-3d65-6e1f-ddf226fad654@pobox.com> Message-ID: <8F597F84-62C0-4B28-9055-5F850833BA8D@gmail.com> On Aug 23, 2021, at 4:11 PM, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat wrote: > ?> On Aug 23, 2021, at 6:52 AM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > >> [...] In Western civilization > >> Christianity got put in its place, so to speak and does not have > >> anywhere near the influence it had before the Renaissance. I do wish > >> that would happen to Islam bill w > > On 2021-8-23 08:59, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: > > I believe it?s way more complicated than that, and the Renaissance > > (which one? the Italian one?) was not really the watershed some make > > it to be. In fact, with Europe it?s really the wars of religion that > > came in the wake of the Reformation that lead to secularization. [...] > > Whatever was before the Renaissance was also before the Reformation, > so Bill's not wrong :P I think a case can be made that the Reformation?s immediate outcome was not a lessening of religious influence but rather its increase. It wasn?t until after the wars of religion and then the Enlightenment that the influence went into Sharon decline. Now you can argue that long after that a hundred years or more later is still after, but it seemed to me his using the Renaissance in there wasn?t just an arbitrary marker ? like ?after the invention the telescope, men landed on the Moon.? Of course, he can chime in here to elaborate why he used the Renaissance (and which one he meant). Think, too, of the various post-Medieval inquisitions, such as the infamous and long lasting Spanish Inquisition. It?s thought to have been far more pernicious because it was not under papal control. But (see below) lessening papal authority doesn?t mean lessening the influence of religion, no? (If one?s looking for a watershed here, too, it might be more the ride of printing, which led to publishing works of dissent. One immediate effect of this was governments clamping down on publishing. But the longer run effect was undermine traditional authority. But recall works like the Malleus Maleficarum were printed works too, and in this particular case, which it might led to diminished clerical power (the Church even condemned it) ? as anyone who could read it might use it to start a witch hunt (which is exactly what happened) ? I don?t think that?s a good example of a decline of religious influence.) Regards, Dan From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 24 00:25:34 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2021 19:25:34 -0500 Subject: [ExI] libertarian ideas ATTN: HENRY In-Reply-To: <8F597F84-62C0-4B28-9055-5F850833BA8D@gmail.com> References: <65f987e3-5d07-3d65-6e1f-ddf226fad654@pobox.com> <8F597F84-62C0-4B28-9055-5F850833BA8D@gmail.com> Message-ID: If everybody has been paying attention, they know that history is my weakest subject. All I wanted to say: the influence of Christianity on governments waned significantly in the last thousand years. Can I get away with that? bill w On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 7:03 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Aug 23, 2021, at 4:11 PM, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ?> On Aug 23, 2021, at 6:52 AM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > >> [...] In Western civilization > > >> Christianity got put in its place, so to speak and does not have > > >> anywhere near the influence it had before the Renaissance. I do wish > > >> that would happen to Islam bill w > > > > On 2021-8-23 08:59, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: > > > I believe it?s way more complicated than that, and the Renaissance > > > (which one? the Italian one?) was not really the watershed some make > > > it to be. In fact, with Europe it?s really the wars of religion that > > > came in the wake of the Reformation that lead to secularization. [...] > > > > Whatever was before the Renaissance was also before the Reformation, > > so Bill's not wrong :P > > I think a case can be made that the Reformation?s immediate outcome was > not a lessening of religious influence but rather its increase. It wasn?t > until after the wars of religion and then the Enlightenment that the > influence went into Sharon decline. Now you can argue that long after that > a hundred years or more later is still after, but it seemed to me his using > the Renaissance in there wasn?t just an arbitrary marker ? like ?after the > invention the telescope, men landed on the Moon.? Of course, he can chime > in here to elaborate why he used the Renaissance (and which one he meant). > > Think, too, of the various post-Medieval inquisitions, such as the > infamous and long lasting Spanish Inquisition. It?s thought to have been > far more pernicious because it was not under papal control. But (see below) > lessening papal authority doesn?t mean lessening the influence of religion, > no? > > (If one?s looking for a watershed here, too, it might be more the ride of > printing, which led to publishing works of dissent. One immediate effect of > this was governments clamping down on publishing. But the longer run effect > was undermine traditional authority. But recall works like the Malleus > Maleficarum were printed works too, and in this particular case, which it > might led to diminished clerical power (the Church even condemned it) ? as > anyone who could read it might use it to start a witch hunt (which is > exactly what happened) ? I don?t think that?s a good example of a decline > of religious influence.) > > Regards, > > Dan > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Aug 24 01:05:37 2021 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2021 18:05:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarian ideas ATTN: HENRY In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <768642D3-75DB-4038-802B-F920F5AC21DC@gmail.com> On Aug 23, 2021, at 5:27 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > If everybody has been paying attention, they know that history is my weakest subject. All I wanted to say: the influence of Christianity on governments waned significantly in the last thousand years. Can I get away with that? bill w Not really. Why? Because the influence of religion or Christianity definitely went up during that period and later went down. It?s almost like saying ?the devastation caused by infectious disease waned significantly over the last thousand years.? Well, if you leave out the Black Death (probably the worst pandemic of humans), the various other plagues (some of which were revisits of the Black Death), and the spread of malaria (to Europe and then to the Americas), and the many other diseases spread to the Americas and to Polynesia. So, while one might point out that infectious diseases went into decline in the last 150 years or so, over the last thousand years it?s extremely distorting to say they declined. It makes it seem like the decline started in 1000 CE and never appreciably went up during that period. Regards, Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 24 01:08:04 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2021 20:08:04 -0500 Subject: [ExI] infinity Message-ID: Is there a consensus in our groups as to whether the universe is finite or infinite? It certainly is infinite for the human race's practical purposes. Let's suppose it is finite. So you go to a place where it ends. What do you see? What if you tried to drill a hole in it? Would it go through? Would it meet resistance? Would the end of your drill bit disappear from existence in this universe? People need to know these things. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Tue Aug 24 02:12:16 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2021 19:12:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] infinity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6eb1ee46-a5da-ce44-7eaa-8de46aa7bc31@pobox.com> On 2021-8-23 18:08, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > Let's suppose it [the universe] is finite. So you go to a place > where it ends. What do you see? What if you tried to drill a hole > in it? [...] Let's suppose the surface of the Earth is finite. So you go to a place where it ends. What do you see? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From bronto at pobox.com Tue Aug 24 02:29:08 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2021 19:29:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarian ideas ATTN: HENRY In-Reply-To: <768642D3-75DB-4038-802B-F920F5AC21DC@gmail.com> References: <768642D3-75DB-4038-802B-F920F5AC21DC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <43558ef8-e5c5-b49a-c3eb-63eeec7e8415@pobox.com> > On Aug 23, 2021, at 5:27 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: >> If everybody has been paying attention, they know that history is my >> weakest subject. All I wanted to say: the influence of Christianity >> on governments waned significantly in the last thousand years. Can I >> get away with that? bill w On 2021-8-23 18:05, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: > Not really. Why? Because the influence of religion or Christianity > definitely went up during that period and later went down. [ad naus] The sentence that started this was: "Christianity [...] does not have anywhere near the influence it had before the Renaissance." This is NOT the same as either "the decline in the influence of Christianity was steepest in the Renaissance" NOR the same as "Christianity has never been as influential since the Renaissance as it was before." It is ONLY a binary comparison. Bill's proposed replacement is an even weaker claim, that the influence has waned, which would not be literally false even if it has at other times waxed even more. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Tue Aug 24 20:14:22 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2021 13:14:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 'Copyright' In-Reply-To: <364E8509-98C6-4245-922D-1E6EFC64B51B@gmail.com> References: <8D4602E7-83F5-442B-A0DB-164B0FC29099@alumni.virginia.edu> <364E8509-98C6-4245-922D-1E6EFC64B51B@gmail.com> Message-ID: Last year I finished writing my first ever novel, which is a science fantasy tale set in the Warhammer 40K franchise sandbox. I am currently in "writer's purgatory," hoping that they will make a decision about accepting it. Unfortunately, since the novel is based on Games Workshop intellectual property, if they don't buy it, I cannot self-publish without them dispatching a team of hitmen/ninja/lawyers to get me! Lol The going rate for a first novel with them is a very cool $45,000. I love the W40K universe and consider reading the novels as being one of my favorite guilty pleasures. They are what I would consider well written pulp fiction. A television series based on the adventures of an Imperium of Man inquisitor, will be premiering within the next year or two, and I can't wait! John On Sun, Aug 22, 2021 at 3:47 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I write, and have publicly posted my works for free since I joined this > list in my Junior year of HS (16yo), some of it more serious than others. > Some fiction, mainly non-fiction. > > I?m currently doing pericope-by-pericope analysis of a Right Wing author, > and I have gotten a few hundred eyeballs on my work but I don?t make any > money from it. > > If I actually manage to complete my analysis of the whole book (possible > but unlikely) then I?ll edit it and self-publish it. It?s such a niche > topic that I doubt I would sell more than 5-10 copies, but that?s not > because the materials are available online for free, but simply because > demand is very low. > > I think it?s normal and healthy for most artists/musicians/writers to have > ?day jobs?. > > SR Ballard > > > On Aug 22, 2021, at 5:57 PM, Henry Rivera via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > ?To me, this comes down to Spike?s observations about a free market > being true but only while we are still under a Capitalist system. Artists > have to work within that system if they want to make a living as an artist. > > > > I?ll submit many if not most artists start by making their work for > free. Go take a look around SoundCloud for example. Artists there are > hoping to get recognized and ?sponsored,? if you will, by a record label > for example or noticed by a celebrity who will post about their track. I?m > part of a community where I live centered around a gallery where over 30 > local artists sell their works. These are painters, sculptors, > photographers, glass blowers, and the like. All but maybe one of them earn > a living other than selling their art. They all have their jobs probably > closely related to their art, but they are not living off their art. I > think that is likely the norm as an artist. > > > > So artists will continue to produce what they do, but a Capitalist > system confines how they?re going to operate. If there were something like > universal basic income or more widespread State sponsoring of artists, then > you might see a different process playing out. And in a non-Capitalist > system you will definitely see a different process play out. But there will > still be artists producing. > > > > We are seeing that digital information is more difficult to treat as > property or capital. Infinite identical copies can be made and easily > distributed. NFTs are an attempt to change that. But it seems technology > (evolution) is running up against a Capitalist paradigm that will continue > to have trouble containing it. The cat?s out of the bag. Artists are > adapting in some cases. Musical artist for example largely count on touring > income, merch sales, and patreon contributions in part to survive, at least > once one gets away from the major labels. > > > > Speaking for myself as a DJ and producer, I?ve made more money on my > side business renting sound gear than as an artist. Spotify pays me 5-10 > cents per play. I?m not getting rich that way. And I make more as a > psychologist than many musical artists anyway. I self-fund my art at this > point. I?m fortunate in that way. Nothing will stop any true artist from > producing art?although the Taliban and the Chinese government certainly > try. It often take death to stop an artist. > > > > -Henry > > > >> On Aug 21, 2021, at 4:36 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> > >> ? > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: extropy-chat On Behalf > Of Ben > >> Zaiboc via extropy-chat > >> Subject: Re: [ExI] 'Copyright' > >> > >> On 20/08/2021 21:12, Spike wrote: > >>>> ... OK cool so what if. we transition to a time when anything that > can be > >>> digitized is free to anyone who will download it... > >> > >> > >>> ...This is what the abundance economy is supposed to solve. People will > >> still get together in groups to create complex things, just not in > order to > >> earn a living, but because they want to collaborate with others to > create > >> something good. If not getting paid resulted in people working alone, > the > >> whole FOSS movement wouldn't even exist, but it does, and that's even > >> without an abundance economy. > >> > >>> ...So, we transition not only to a time when digital goods are free, > but to > >> a time when people don't have to work in order to live. > >> > >>> ...Ben > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> > >> > >> Hi Ben, ja but the economy of abundance doesn't apply to some things, > such > >> as raw materials, energy and land. Regardless of how easily we can > >> manufacture anything we want, there are fixed quantities of some things. > >> > >> spike > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> extropy-chat mailing list > >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Aug 24 07:57:12 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2021 08:57:12 +0100 Subject: [ExI] infinity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Aug 2021 at 02:13, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Is there a consensus in our groups as to whether the universe is finite or infinite? It certainly is infinite for the human race's practical purposes. > > Let's suppose it is finite. So you go to a place where it ends. What do you see? What if you tried to drill a hole in it? Would it go through? Would it meet resistance? Would the end of your drill bit disappear from existence in this universe? > > People need to know these things. bill w > _______________________________________________ Consider: Ask Ethan: Could the Universe be infinite? Perhaps the limits of what we can observe aren?t just artificial; perhaps there are no limits to what?s out there at all. Ethan Siegel Nov 12, 2016 Quote: >From our best observations, we know that the Universe is an awful lot bigger than the part we can observe. Beyond what we can see, we strongly suspect that there?s plenty more Universe out there just like ours, with the same laws of physics, the same types of structures (stars, galaxies, clusters, filaments, voids, etc.), and the same chances at complex life. There should also be a finite size and scale to the ?bubble? in which inflation ended, and an exponentially huge number of such bubbles contained within the larger, inflating spacetime. But as inconceivably large as that entire Universe (or Multiverse, if you prefer) is, it might not be infinite. In fact, unless inflation went on for a truly infinite amount of time, the Universe must be finite in extent. The biggest problem of all, though? It?s that we only know how to access the information available inside our observable Universe: those 46 billion light years in all directions. The answer to the biggest of all questions ? whether the Universe is finite or infinite ? might be encoded in the Universe itself, but we can?t access enough of it to know. Until we either figure it out, or come up with a clever scheme to expand what we know physics is capable of, all we?ll have are the possibilities. ------------ Still. I think our Universe is probably big enough to keep humans occupied for a while. :) BillK From atymes at gmail.com Tue Aug 24 17:51:20 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2021 10:51:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarian ideas In-Reply-To: References: <0g3h31n1qhvRaeMRwU6Ahz6T0j1ebN9NYTFuNHMSwy-R-ruVBCdoHSEvj3FIccJgMijJ4CFWNgnHuRpRxnm3P6kUZTiYFMfMK3YcoTVwRJc=@protonmail.com> <005301d7975d$fb05c110$f1114330$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 22, 2021 at 8:39 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Bottom line: I support guns up to but not including automatic weapons for > everyone except mental cases and felons. You? > There already exist design files, such that anyone can 3D print their own pistols. I do not believe it will be very long before this is true of fully automatic rifles too. Obtaining ammunition might be a limiting factor, but once someone develops (and distributes 3D files to print) coilguns or railguns with decent stopping power, printing ammunition will be easy too. Technology often tramples the giving and limiting of rights, by granting rights in a way that concerned people can not stop. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Aug 24 20:25:02 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2021 13:25:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] infinity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It appears as if the universe itself may be infinite, even if matter and energy are finite. You go to the end, and there's just nothing beyond that. If you push into it - there's something where you pushed, but there's still nothing beyond that. On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 6:13 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Is there a consensus in our groups as to whether the universe is finite or > infinite? It certainly is infinite for the human race's practical purposes. > > Let's suppose it is finite. So you go to a place where it ends. What do > you see? What if you tried to drill a hole in it? Would it go through? > Would it meet resistance? Would the end of your drill bit disappear from > existence in this universe? > > People need to know these things. bill w > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 25 00:12:34 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2021 17:12:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] is it real? Message-ID: <001601d79945$e827e200$b877a600$@rainier66.com> I don?t know if this is real or was faked but I am inclined to believe it. If so, it is wicked cool: Google's AI Assistant Can Now Make Real Phone Calls - YouTube spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 25 00:19:22 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2021 17:19:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] infinity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001f01d79946$db4a7790$91df66b0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] infinity >? You go to the end, and there's just nothing beyond that. If you push into it - there's something where you pushed, but there's still nothing beyond that? Adrian, this isn?t the way I understand it. In a finite (or gravitationally closed ) universe. There is not a place anywhere in space where one can go (ignoring the logistics of getting there) face one direction, there is everything, face the other direction, there is nothing. The big bang model kinda makes it sound like there should be a surface where everything appears to be inboard and nothing appears to be outboard. But that is misleading really. It makes it sound like everything started out as part of a big firecracker and now the bits are flying out everywhere. That isn?t what happened. The inflationary model suggests that absolutely regardless of where and when you are in spacetime, you will see stuff in every direction. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Aug 25 15:44:14 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 08:44:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Surprise! Our Bodies Have Been Hiding a Trojan Horse for Gene Therapy Message-ID: "Enter SEND. The new delivery platform, described in *Science*, dazzles with its sheer ingenuity. Rather than relying on foreign carriers, SEND (*s* elective *e*ndogenous e*n*capsidation for cellular *d*elivery) commandeers human proteins to make delivery vehicles that shuttle in new genetic elements. In a series of tests, the team embedded RNA cargo and CRISPR components inside cultured cells in a dish. The cells, acting as packing factories, used human proteins to encapsulate the genetic material, forming tiny balloon-like vessels that can be collected as a treatment. Even weirder, the source of these proteins relies on viral genes domesticated eons ago by our own genome through evolution. Because the proteins are essentially human, they?re unlikely to trigger our immune system. Although the authors only tried one packaging system, far more are hidden in our genomes. ?That?s what?s so exciting,? said study author Dr. Michael Segel, adding that the system they used isn?t unique; ?There are probably other RNA transfer systems in the human body that can also be harnessed for therapeutic purposes.? https://singularityhub.com/2021/08/24/surprise-our-bodies-have-been-hiding-a-trojan-horse-for-gene-therapy/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Aug 25 15:51:27 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 08:51:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Navy captain makes history as first woman to command a nuclear aircraft carrier Message-ID: This makes me think of the Battlestar Galactica series... Lol She may get to experience combat before it's time for her retirement... "Navy Capt. Amy Bauernschmidt made history in San Diego Thursday when she took command of the nuclear-powered aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln at a ceremony on board the ship. She is the first woman to command one of the Navy?s largest warships. Bauernschmidt previously served as the Lincoln?s executive officer ? another first for a woman ? from 2016-2019. After leaving the Lincoln, Bauernschmidt served as the commanding officer of the amphibious transport dock San Diego." https://americanmilitarynews.com/2021/08/navy-captain-makes-history-as-first-woman-to-command-a-nuclear-aircraft-carrier/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Aug 25 16:08:58 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 09:08:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] US officials hit with suspected sonic weapons in Germany, report says Message-ID: This makes my blood boil... Most likely the Russians are behind it... The U.S. needs to find strong evidence of who is responsible (if possible), and then chew the head off of their national leader... "United States diplomats said additional incidents have been reported by American officials in other European countries, including intelligence officers and diplomats working on issues connected with Russia, such as cybersecurity, political interference and gas exports." "The patient told the Wall Street Journal that the symptoms included piercing ear pain, high-pitched electronic noise and ear pressure. Initially thought to be symptoms of COVID-19, the patient was flown to Washington, D.C. for further treatment when the symptoms persisted, embassy officials noted. ?There is no evidence about what happened to us, but it is striking that some of us had worked on Russia-related issues,? the worker said. ?Whatever it is, it is a form of terrorism?it has caused serious injuries that have been life-altering for some of us.? https://americanmilitarynews.com/2021/08/us-officials-hit-with-suspected-sonic-weapons-in-germany-report-says/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Aug 25 16:28:52 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 09:28:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Elon Musk says SpaceX could launch a Starship to the moon 'probably sooner' than 2024: report Message-ID: "SpaceX CEO Elon Musk says he may be able to launch the company's massive new Starship to the moon for NASA "probably sooner" than the space agency's 2024 target even in the face of contract and other delays. Starship was selected as NASA's lander of choice for the Artemis human landing system (HLS) in April, but two situations held up the contract in the months since. First there were protests by competitors Blue Origin and Dynetics, in part expressing concern about NASA's decision to select one provider instead of two (the companies cited lesser budgetary funds available for HLS as a probable cause)." https://www.space.com/elon-musk-spacex-starship-to-moon-sooner-2024 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Wed Aug 25 04:36:12 2021 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2021 22:36:12 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Surprise! Our Bodies Have Been Hiding a Trojan Horse for Gene Therapy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's really cool, but discovering the mechanism is one thing. Building a working therapy to use it is another thing entirely. And then convincing the population at large that it's safe and reliable - that'll be the hardest trick of all. Popular trust in the institution of public health policy is at an all-time low, and they've no one to blame but themselves. The politicization of the discourse around the known side-effects of the mRNA vaccines being currently marketed has probably set genetic therapy as a field back 30 years or more. On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 6:42 PM John Grigg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > "Enter SEND. The new delivery platform, described in > *Science*, dazzles > with its sheer ingenuity. Rather than relying on foreign carriers, SEND ( > *s*elective *e*ndogenous e*n*capsidation for cellular *d*elivery) > commandeers human proteins to make delivery vehicles that shuttle in new > genetic elements. In a series of tests, the team embedded RNA cargo and > CRISPR components inside cultured cells in a dish. The cells, acting as > packing factories, used human proteins to encapsulate the genetic material, > forming tiny balloon-like vessels that can be collected as a treatment. > > Even weirder, the source of these proteins relies on viral genes > domesticated eons ago by our own genome through evolution. Because the > proteins are essentially human, they?re unlikely to trigger our immune > system. > > Although the authors only tried one packaging system, far more are hidden > in our genomes. ?That?s what?s so exciting,? said study author Dr. Michael > Segel, adding that the system they used isn?t unique; ?There are probably > other RNA transfer systems in the human body that can also be harnessed for > therapeutic purposes.? > > https://singularityhub.com/2021/08/24/surprise-our-bodies-have-been-hiding-a-trojan-horse-for-gene-therapy/ > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Aug 25 06:22:05 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 07:22:05 +0100 Subject: [ExI] infinity In-Reply-To: <001f01d79946$db4a7790$91df66b0$@rainier66.com> References: <001f01d79946$db4a7790$91df66b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Aug 2021 at 01:22, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > Adrian, this isn?t the way I understand it. In a finite (or gravitationally closed ) universe. There is not a place anywhere in space where one can go (ignoring the logistics of getting there) face one direction, there is everything, face the other direction, there is nothing. The big bang model kinda makes it sound like there should be a surface where everything appears to be inboard and nothing appears to be outboard. But that is misleading really. It makes it sound like everything started out as part of a big firecracker and now the bits are flying out everywhere. That isn?t what happened. > > The inflationary model suggests that absolutely regardless of where and when you are in spacetime, you will see stuff in every direction. > > spike > _______________________________________________ Yes, Ethan has an explanation here: Quote: This boundary, however, is not an ?edge? to the Universe in any conventional sense of the word. It is not a boundary in space at all; if we happened to be located at any other point in space, we would still be able to detect and observe everything around us within that 46.1 billion light-year sphere centered on us. This is because that ?edge? is a boundary in time, rather than in space. This edge represents the limit of what we can see because the speed of light ? even in an expanding Universe governed by General Relativity ? only allows signals to travel so far over the Universe?s 13.8 billion year history. This distance is farther than 13.8 billion light-years because of the Universe?s expansion, but it?s still finite. However, we cannot reach all of it. ---------------- But thinking about infinities still makes my brain hurt! :) BillK From steinberg.will at gmail.com Wed Aug 25 07:36:33 2021 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 03:36:33 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Surprise! Our Bodies Have Been Hiding a Trojan Horse for Gene Therapy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, being in the first wave of gene therapy patients will probably be bad, humans tend to fuck things up On Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 12:37 AM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > That's really cool, but discovering the mechanism is one thing. Building a > working therapy to use it is another thing entirely. And then convincing > the population at large that it's safe and reliable - that'll be the > hardest trick of all. Popular trust in the institution of public health > policy is at an all-time low, and they've no one to blame but themselves. > > The politicization of the discourse around the known side-effects of the > mRNA vaccines being currently marketed has probably set genetic therapy as > a field back 30 years or more. > > On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 6:42 PM John Grigg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> "Enter SEND. The new delivery platform, described in >> *Science*, dazzles >> with its sheer ingenuity. Rather than relying on foreign carriers, SEND ( >> *s*elective *e*ndogenous e*n*capsidation for cellular *d*elivery) >> commandeers human proteins to make delivery vehicles that shuttle in new >> genetic elements. In a series of tests, the team embedded RNA cargo and >> CRISPR components inside cultured cells in a dish. The cells, acting as >> packing factories, used human proteins to encapsulate the genetic material, >> forming tiny balloon-like vessels that can be collected as a treatment. >> >> Even weirder, the source of these proteins relies on viral genes >> domesticated eons ago by our own genome through evolution. Because the >> proteins are essentially human, they?re unlikely to trigger our immune >> system. >> >> Although the authors only tried one packaging system, far more are hidden >> in our genomes. ?That?s what?s so exciting,? said study author Dr. Michael >> Segel, adding that the system they used isn?t unique; ?There are probably >> other RNA transfer systems in the human body that can also be harnessed for >> therapeutic purposes.? >> >> https://singularityhub.com/2021/08/24/surprise-our-bodies-have-been-hiding-a-trojan-horse-for-gene-therapy/ >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 25 13:01:12 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 06:01:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] infinity In-Reply-To: References: <001f01d79946$db4a7790$91df66b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001f01d799b1$48709d80$d951d880$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] infinity On Wed, 25 Aug 2021 at 01:22, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >... The big bang model kinda ... makes it sound like everything started out as part of a big firecracker and now the bits are flying out everywhere. That isn?t what happened... > > spike > _______________________________________________ >...Yes, Ethan has an explanation here: >... because of the Universe?s expansion, but it?s still finite. However, we cannot reach all of it. ---------------- >...But thinking about infinities still makes my brain hurt! :) >...BillK _______________________________________________ Mine too BillK. We are three dimensional beasts living in what we perceive as a three dimensional universe. We try to somehow impose our perceptions into some kind of 3-D model, such as a very common popular misunderstanding of the Big Bang. The whole notion leads 3D humans to ask the obvious questions: OK sure, so where did this giant firecracker come from to start with? And where were we located in the firecracker before it exploded? etc, and it just can't be explained adequately any more than A. Square from Abbott's Flatland could explain the sphere to his fellow Flatlanders because they were 2D. To get the whole inflationary universe you really need to get hot with your multivariable calculus. There are no good shortcuts, you need to master the math before you have a fightin chance at the concept. Many of us recall taking calculus-based physics and realize without calculus there are just too many concepts outta your reach. Same goes for 4-D universe models The curvature of spacetime caused by mass for instance: you need your del operators and gradient functions and such. There are no shortcuts up this mountain. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 25 13:48:19 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 08:48:19 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Surprise! Our Bodies Have Been Hiding a Trojan Horse for Gene Therapy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, being in the first wave of gene therapy patients will probably be bad, humans tend to fuck things up will How many scientific discoveries occurred the very first time something was tried? I'd say probably none. Every success rests atop a mountain of failures. bill w On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 2:39 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Yes, being in the first wave of gene therapy patients will probably be > bad, humans tend to fuck things up > > On Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 12:37 AM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> That's really cool, but discovering the mechanism is one thing. Building >> a working therapy to use it is another thing entirely. And then convincing >> the population at large that it's safe and reliable - that'll be the >> hardest trick of all. Popular trust in the institution of public health >> policy is at an all-time low, and they've no one to blame but themselves. >> >> The politicization of the discourse around the known side-effects of the >> mRNA vaccines being currently marketed has probably set genetic therapy as >> a field back 30 years or more. >> >> On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 6:42 PM John Grigg via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> "Enter SEND. The new delivery platform, described in >>> *Science*, >>> dazzles with its sheer ingenuity. Rather than relying on foreign carriers, >>> SEND (*s*elective *e*ndogenous e*n*capsidation for cellular *d*elivery) >>> commandeers human proteins to make delivery vehicles that shuttle in new >>> genetic elements. In a series of tests, the team embedded RNA cargo and >>> CRISPR components inside cultured cells in a dish. The cells, acting as >>> packing factories, used human proteins to encapsulate the genetic material, >>> forming tiny balloon-like vessels that can be collected as a treatment. >>> >>> Even weirder, the source of these proteins relies on viral genes >>> domesticated eons ago by our own genome through evolution. Because the >>> proteins are essentially human, they?re unlikely to trigger our immune >>> system. >>> >>> Although the authors only tried one packaging system, far more are >>> hidden in our genomes. ?That?s what?s so exciting,? said study author Dr. >>> Michael Segel, adding that the system they used isn?t unique; ?There are >>> probably other RNA transfer systems in the human body that can also be >>> harnessed for therapeutic purposes.? >>> >>> https://singularityhub.com/2021/08/24/surprise-our-bodies-have-been-hiding-a-trojan-horse-for-gene-therapy/ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Aug 25 13:50:04 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 14:50:04 +0100 Subject: [ExI] New tool to complete author's novel for them Message-ID: New tool could help authors bust writer's block in novel-length works Jessica Hallman August 24, 2021 Quotes: Authors experiencing writer?s block could soon have a new way to help develop the next section of their story. Researchers at the Penn State College of Information Sciences and Technology recently introduced a new technology that forecasts the future development of an ongoing written story. In their approach, researchers first characterize the narrative world using over 1,000 different ?semantic frames,? where each frame represents a cluster of concepts and related knowledge. A predictive algorithm then looks at the preceding story and predicts the semantic frames that might occur in the next 10, 100, or even 1,000 sentences in an ongoing story. ------ Authors could use the tool by feeding a part of their already-written text into the system to generate a set of word clouds with suggested nouns, verbs and adjectives to inspire them when crafting the next part of their story. ------------------- I suppose Hollywood could have a special version where the ending always involves explosions, gunfire and fisticuffs. :) BillK From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 25 14:36:12 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 07:36:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Surprise! Our Bodies Have Been Hiding a Trojan Horse for Gene Therapy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003201d799be$8e8759f0$ab960dd0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >?How many scientific discoveries occurred the very first time something was tried? I'd say probably none. Every success rests atop a mountain of failures. bill w I can only think of one, but that one was truly great: LIGO, the black hole merger detector. That one was an important object lesson to me. It is a rare example of an experiment which has no viable downscale test experiments. With the detector technology we have, the tube would need to be as long as it is (4 km) so you can?t really build a mini-LIGO with 4-meter tubes. The first attempt to detect gravity waves would need to cost a ton of money, which My understanding at the time of the Big Bang was that we would have a black hole merger about once a century on average. I thought at the time would be a waste: we would turn it on, wait for a signal for perhaps a century, never see one, they eventually turn it off. Or we would see one, argue for another century on what that was, never see another one, like the legendary WOW signal from SETI. But that isn?t what happened at all. They spent a ton of money, built the thing, turned it on for what was intended as mostly a calibration run in 2015, three weeks later BWIP. I do confess I didn?t believe it was the real thing: just too coincidental. I was there when they pulled the cover off that astonishing BWIP at the Stanford linear accelerator in Feb 2016. Now we are getting several events a year, and some of them are being dug out of the data and interpreted after the fact. I missed my estimate of how often these events occur by a cool three orders of magnitude. As far as I know, not one scientist or astronomer predicted we would be getting such a vast treasure chest of events from that instrument. The most optimistic guessed an event every few years. LIGO is a rare example of a scientific discovery of huge importance that worked beyond everyone?s imagination on the first try. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 25 16:02:22 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 11:02:22 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Surprise! Our Bodies Have Been Hiding a Trojan Horse for Gene Therapy In-Reply-To: <003201d799be$8e8759f0$ab960dd0$@rainier66.com> References: <003201d799be$8e8759f0$ab960dd0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, how many failures of the equipment needed to build that happened on the way to the success of LIGO? Just put together from known tech, or what? bill w On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 9:38 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > > >?How many scientific discoveries occurred the very first time something > was tried? I'd say probably none. Every success rests atop a mountain of > failures. bill w > > > > I can only think of one, but that one was truly great: LIGO, the black > hole merger detector. > > > > That one was an important object lesson to me. It is a rare example of an > experiment which has no viable downscale test experiments. With the > detector technology we have, the tube would need to be as long as it is (4 > km) so you can?t really build a mini-LIGO with 4-meter tubes. The first > attempt to detect gravity waves would need to cost a ton of money, which My > understanding at the time of the Big Bang was that we would have a black > hole merger about once a century on average. I thought at the time would > be a waste: we would turn it on, wait for a signal for perhaps a century, > never see one, they eventually turn it off. Or we would see one, argue for > another century on what that was, never see another one, like the legendary > WOW signal from SETI. > > > > But that isn?t what happened at all. They spent a ton of money, built the > thing, turned it on for what was intended as mostly a calibration run in > 2015, three weeks later BWIP. I do confess I didn?t believe it was the > real thing: just too coincidental. I was there when they pulled the cover > off that astonishing BWIP at the Stanford linear accelerator in Feb 2016. > > > > Now we are getting several events a year, and some of them are being dug > out of the data and interpreted after the fact. I missed my estimate of > how often these events occur by a cool three orders of magnitude. As far > as I know, not one scientist or astronomer predicted we would be getting > such a vast treasure chest of events from that instrument. The most > optimistic guessed an event every few years. > > > > LIGO is a rare example of a scientific discovery of huge importance that > worked beyond everyone?s imagination on the first try. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 25 16:14:17 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 09:14:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Surprise! Our Bodies Have Been Hiding a Trojan Horse for Gene Therapy In-Reply-To: References: <003201d799be$8e8759f0$ab960dd0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001e01d799cc$41cc5fd0$c5651f70$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Surprise! Our Bodies Have Been Hiding a Trojan Horse for Gene Therapy >?Spike, how many failures of the equipment needed to build that happened on the way to the success of LIGO? Just put together from known tech, or what? bill w Ja, it was known tech that dictated the necessary and expensive scale of LIGO. They knew they could build one of those for a long time. The astronomy community debated on and on whether it was worth doing. I am shamed to admit I was one who believed it was probably not: the event they were looking for was (I thought) too rare to bother with the search. Having a detector that size meant they had to have a big piece of real estate. It is cool that it landed in Livingston Louisiana, a day trip there and back from your driveway. That detector changed my life. Were it convenient, I would go there and worship the thing. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tara at taramayastales.com Wed Aug 25 17:17:31 2021 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 10:17:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] US officials hit with suspected sonic weapons in Germany, report says In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41D91F89-33C1-45F0-968E-D43AAADD4A39@taramayastales.com> Didn't this also happen in Vietnam during Kamala's recent trip? > On Aug 25, 2021, at 9:08 AM, John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote: > > This makes my blood boil... Most likely the Russians are behind it... The U.S. needs to find strong evidence of who is responsible (if possible), and then chew the head off of their national leader... > > "United States diplomats said additional incidents have been reported by American officials in other European countries, including intelligence officers and diplomats working on issues connected with Russia, such as cybersecurity, political interference and gas exports." > > "The patient told the Wall Street Journal that the symptoms included piercing ear pain, high-pitched electronic noise and ear pressure. Initially thought to be symptoms of COVID-19, the patient was flown to Washington, D.C. for further treatment when the symptoms persisted, embassy officials noted. > > ?There is no evidence about what happened to us, but it is striking that some of us had worked on Russia-related issues,? the worker said. ?Whatever it is, it is a form of terrorism?it has caused serious injuries that have been life-altering for some of us.? > > https://americanmilitarynews.com/2021/08/us-officials-hit-with-suspected-sonic-weapons-in-germany-report-says/ > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Aug 25 17:20:04 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 10:20:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] US officials hit with suspected sonic weapons in Germany, report says In-Reply-To: <41D91F89-33C1-45F0-968E-D43AAADD4A39@taramayastales.com> References: <41D91F89-33C1-45F0-968E-D43AAADD4A39@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: I believe the first widely reported instances were in Cuba. On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 10:19 AM Tara Maya via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Didn't this also happen in Vietnam during Kamala's recent trip? > > > > On Aug 25, 2021, at 9:08 AM, John Grigg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > This makes my blood boil... Most likely the Russians are behind it... The > U.S. needs to find strong evidence of who is responsible (if possible), and > then chew the head off of their national leader... > > "United States diplomats said additional incidents have been reported by > American officials in other European countries, including intelligence > officers and diplomats working on issues connected with Russia, such as > cybersecurity, political interference and gas exports." > > "The patient told the Wall Street Journal that the symptoms included > piercing ear pain, high-pitched electronic noise and ear pressure. > Initially thought to be symptoms of COVID-19, the patient was flown to > Washington, D.C. for further treatment when the symptoms persisted, embassy > officials noted. > > ?There is no evidence about what happened to us, but it is striking that > some of us had worked on Russia-related issues,? the worker said. ?Whatever > it is, it is a form of terrorism?it has caused serious injuries that have > been life-altering for some of us.? > > https://americanmilitarynews.com/2021/08/us-officials-hit-with-suspected-sonic-weapons-in-germany-report-says/ > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 25 18:06:35 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 13:06:35 -0500 Subject: [ExI] New tool to complete author's novel for them In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Perhaps the AI in charge of helping writers could just pay writers of incomplete works what they think it's worth, and publish the book it finishes. So the initial creativity is human and the rest is AI. Is this the future? Likely, I think. Same thing could be done with music of any kind. bill w On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 8:56 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > New tool could help authors bust writer's block in novel-length works > Jessica Hallman August 24, 2021 > > < > https://news.psu.edu/story/666920/2021/08/24/research/new-tool-could-help-authors-bust-writers-block-novel-length-works > > > > Quotes: > Authors experiencing writer?s block could soon have a new way to help > develop the next section of their story. > > Researchers at the Penn State College of Information Sciences and > Technology recently introduced a new technology that forecasts the > future development of an ongoing written story. In their approach, > researchers first characterize the narrative world using over 1,000 > different ?semantic frames,? where each frame represents a cluster of > concepts and related knowledge. A predictive algorithm then looks at > the preceding story and predicts the semantic frames that might occur > in the next 10, 100, or even 1,000 sentences in an ongoing story. > ------ > Authors could use the tool by feeding a part of their already-written > text into the system to generate a set of word clouds with suggested > nouns, verbs and adjectives to inspire them when crafting the next > part of their story. > ------------------- > > I suppose Hollywood could have a special version where the ending > always involves explosions, gunfire and fisticuffs. :) > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 25 18:31:38 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 11:31:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] New tool to complete author's novel for them In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000901d799df$716266f0$542734d0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] New tool to complete author's novel for them >?Perhaps the AI in charge of helping writers could just pay writers of incomplete works what they think it's worth, and publish the book it finishes? What if? we took the first 30 pages of Lord of the Flies and gave it to the software, let it write the rest, then did some kind of small tweak to the same software and gave the new version the same 30 pages. If we set the program with adjustable parameters somehow, perhaps we can cause it to write the story where Simon lives and Jack doesn?t. Alternative experiment: give the AI 30 pages, it writes an ending, take out the original 30 pages and write a short introduction, hand that to another AI to write a sequel or continuation of the story. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Wed Aug 25 20:02:52 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 21:02:52 +0100 Subject: [ExI] infinity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 24/08/2021 18:51, bill w wrote: > Is there a consensus in our groups as to whether the universe is > finite or infinite?? It certainly is infinite for the human race's > practical purposes. > > Let's suppose it is finite.? So you go to a place where it ends.? What > do you see? What if you tried to drill a hole in it?? Would it go > through? Would it meet resistance?? Would the end of your drill bit > disappear from existence in this universe I think it's quite likely that this universe is finite, but that there is an infinity of such universes (I am not a cosmologist, though). As for 'going to a place where it ends', you can't. Just as you can't go to 'a place where it starts'. Try drawing an x on a ball at a place where it ends. Or starts. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Wed Aug 25 20:14:18 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 21:14:18 +0100 Subject: [ExI] 'Copyright' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <956bdedb-19e8-49d6-91ba-cfac75e283d3@zaiboc.net> On 24/08/2021 18:51, John Grigg wrote: > Last year I finished writing my first ever novel, which is a science > fantasy tale set in the?Warhammer 40K franchise sandbox. I am > currently in "writer's purgatory," hoping that they will make a > decision about accepting it. Unfortunately, since the novel is based > on Games Workshop intellectual property, if they don't buy it, I > cannot self-publish without them dispatching a team of > hitmen/ninja/lawyers to get me! Of course you can. Nobody can stop you. They may be able to stop you profiting from it, but they can't stop you putting it on the internet, giving copies to your friends, reciting it to anyone who will listen, etc. This is where you stop and consider: why did I write it (And are there easier ways of making $45k)? Ben From ben at zaiboc.net Wed Aug 25 20:19:31 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 21:19:31 +0100 Subject: [ExI] libertarian ideas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4c6a9047-b85c-2f84-cd8d-afb9ffba43f5@zaiboc.net> On 24/08/2021 18:51, Adrian Tymes wrote: "Technology often tramples the giving and limiting of rights, by granting rights in a way that concerned people can not stop" I nominate this for the Extropian Quote of the Year. Ben From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 25 21:56:07 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 16:56:07 -0500 Subject: [ExI] New tool to complete author's novel for them In-Reply-To: <000901d799df$716266f0$542734d0$@rainier66.com> References: <000901d799df$716266f0$542734d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Well, Spike, it's all coming, I have read where some classical musicians could not tell an AI musical work from one by a human. One AI plays GO, another, chess...........one AI creates Bach-like works, another Miles Davis, and so on. bill w On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 1:33 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] New tool to complete author's novel for them > > > > >?Perhaps the AI in charge of helping writers could just pay writers of > incomplete works what they think it's worth, and publish the book it > finishes? > > > > What if? we took the first 30 pages of Lord of the Flies and gave it to > the software, let it write the rest, then did some kind of small tweak to > the same software and gave the new version the same 30 pages. If we set > the program with adjustable parameters somehow, perhaps we can cause it to > write the story where Simon lives and Jack doesn?t. > > > > Alternative experiment: give the AI 30 pages, it writes an ending, take > out the original 30 pages and write a short introduction, hand that to > another AI to write a sequel or continuation of the story. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 25 21:58:11 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 16:58:11 -0500 Subject: [ExI] infinity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, I don't understand that metaphor. How about this one? We are effectively inside a finite sphere. Why can't we go as far as we can in one direction and run into a wall or something? bill w On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 3:05 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 24/08/2021 18:51, bill w wrote: > > Is there a consensus in our groups as to whether the universe is finite or > infinite? It certainly is infinite for the human race's practical purposes. > > Let's suppose it is finite. So you go to a place where it ends. What do > you see? What if you tried to drill a hole in it? Would it go through? > Would it meet resistance? Would the end of your drill bit disappear from > existence in this universe > > > I think it's quite likely that this universe is finite, but that there is > an infinity of such universes (I am not a cosmologist, though). > > As for 'going to a place where it ends', you can't. Just as you can't go > to 'a place where it starts'. Try drawing an x on a ball at a place where > it ends. Or starts. > > Ben > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 25 22:02:17 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 17:02:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] libertarian ideas In-Reply-To: <4c6a9047-b85c-2f84-cd8d-afb9ffba43f5@zaiboc.net> References: <4c6a9047-b85c-2f84-cd8d-afb9ffba43f5@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 3:21 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 24/08/2021 18:51, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > "Technology often tramples the giving and limiting of rights, by > granting rights in a way that concerned people can not stop" > > > I nominate this for the Extropian Quote of the Year. > > Ben > I like it! Break down all barriers to knowledge and everything else. No > censorship. What would happen if everyone's offensive and defensive > weaponry, plans, locations, software, the whole ball of tech, were public? > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Wed Aug 25 22:33:51 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 08:33:51 +1000 Subject: [ExI] infinity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Aug 2021 at 08:04, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Well, I don't understand that metaphor. How about this one? We are > effectively inside a finite sphere. Why can't we go as far as we can in > one direction and run into a wall or something? bill w > Space itself is curved analogous to the surface of a sphere, so if you keep going you end up where you started. On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 3:05 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On 24/08/2021 18:51, bill w wrote: >> >> Is there a consensus in our groups as to whether the universe is finite >> or infinite? It certainly is infinite for the human race's practical >> purposes. >> >> Let's suppose it is finite. So you go to a place where it ends. What do >> you see? What if you tried to drill a hole in it? Would it go through? >> Would it meet resistance? Would the end of your drill bit disappear from >> existence in this universe >> >> >> I think it's quite likely that this universe is finite, but that there is >> an infinity of such universes (I am not a cosmologist, though). >> >> As for 'going to a place where it ends', you can't. Just as you can't go >> to 'a place where it starts'. Try drawing an x on a ball at a place where >> it ends. Or starts. >> >> Ben >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 25 22:49:30 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 15:49:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] infinity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002701d79a03$779c9990$66d5ccb0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] infinity >?Well, I don't understand that metaphor. How about this one? We are effectively inside a finite sphere. Why can't we go as far as we can in one direction and run into a wall or something? bill w Overworking the familiar old 3 dimensions in space notion Billw. Think 4 dimensional spacetime. There are no walls in that system, only a start time and (if finite) and end time. If infinite, then only a start time. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 26 00:34:28 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 19:34:28 -0500 Subject: [ExI] infinity In-Reply-To: <002701d79a03$779c9990$66d5ccb0$@rainier66.com> References: <002701d79a03$779c9990$66d5ccb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Think four dimensional, Spike? I could not find that in Wikipedia. Oops, actually, I did. My brain is too old for that kind of thinking, so I guess we can leave this topic for good. bill w On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 5:51 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] infinity > > > > >?Well, I don't understand that metaphor. How about this one? We are > effectively inside a finite sphere. Why can't we go as far as we can in > one direction and run into a wall or something? bill w > > > > > > Overworking the familiar old 3 dimensions in space notion Billw. Think 4 > dimensional spacetime. There are no walls in that system, only a start > time and (if finite) and end time. If infinite, then only a start time. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Aug 26 18:04:30 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 11:04:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 'Copyright' In-Reply-To: <956bdedb-19e8-49d6-91ba-cfac75e283d3@zaiboc.net> References: <956bdedb-19e8-49d6-91ba-cfac75e283d3@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Ben Zaiboc wrote: "Of course you can. Nobody can stop you. They may be able to stop you profiting from it, but they can't stop you putting it on the internet, giving copies to your friends, reciting it to anyone who will listen, etc. This is where you stop and consider: why did I write it (And are there easier ways of making $45k)?" I have thought about these things. And I could of course rewrite the whole thing, to remove the W40K elements and make the story my own, in terms of intellectual property. Quite a few established authors have done this when they wrote a Star Trek or Star Wars novel, which was not picked up by the publishing house, to their frustration. But I want to avoid doing this, if at all possible. And since I have been told I have a pleasant speaking voice a couple of times in my life, I have thought about just doing my own audiobook reading if the book is not purchased, and posting it for free on Youtube for people to enjoy. I would be very curious to get feedback, because I only had a tiny handful of beta readers. I wrote the book out of a love for the W40K universe, and yes, because I thought making that much money for a first novel would be nice. But I did put a huge amount of time into the writing, with no guarantee of a financial reward from it. There are easier ways to make money, for certain! Lol I have played with the idea for a number of years of getting into computer programming or cyber security. And I am currently looking at Code Academy ($20 a month), Free Code Camp (free), Team Treehouse ($200 a month), Pluralsight ($160 a year) and Udacity ($400 a month) as possibilities. Any opinions on these programs? Are there other programs I should look at? There is a dizzying number of options for learning this material! I would appreciate any insights and advice from list members on the best way to move forward with this goal of mine. John : ) On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 1:16 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 24/08/2021 18:51, John Grigg wrote: > > Last year I finished writing my first ever novel, which is a science > > fantasy tale set in the Warhammer 40K franchise sandbox. I am > > currently in "writer's purgatory," hoping that they will make a > > decision about accepting it. Unfortunately, since the novel is based > > on Games Workshop intellectual property, if they don't buy it, I > > cannot self-publish without them dispatching a team of > > hitmen/ninja/lawyers to get me! > > Of course you can. Nobody can stop you. They may be able to stop you > profiting from it, but they can't stop you putting it on the internet, > giving copies to your friends, reciting it to anyone who will listen, etc. > > This is where you stop and consider: why did I write it (And are there > easier ways of making $45k)? > > Ben > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Thu Aug 26 03:28:06 2021 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 23:28:06 -0400 Subject: [ExI] 'Copyright' In-Reply-To: References: <956bdedb-19e8-49d6-91ba-cfac75e283d3@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 11:04 PM John Grigg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > There are easier ways to make money, for certain! Lol I have played with > the idea for a number of years of getting into computer programming or > cyber security. And I am currently looking at Code Academy ($20 a month), > Free Code Camp (free), Team Treehouse ($200 a month), Pluralsight ($160 a > year) and Udacity ($400 a month) as possibilities. Any opinions on these > programs? Are there other programs I should look at? There is a dizzying > number of options for learning this material! I would appreciate any > insights and advice from list members on the best way to move forward with > this goal of mine. > Get an entry-level job & fake it 'til you make it. I believe 3 months of doing it and you'll be as-good (or better) than half the people on my team. Or if you don't feel that's "honest" enough, I suggest building something that interests you and get problem-specific help from nerds on irc/discord/etc. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 26 04:34:23 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 21:34:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] infinity In-Reply-To: References: <002701d79a03$779c9990$66d5ccb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <000201d79a33$a5ab3730$f101a590$@rainier66.com> ..> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] infinity >?Think four dimensional, Spike? I could not find that in Wikipedia. Oops, actually, I did. My brain is too old for that kind of thinking, so I guess we can leave this topic for good. bill w It is a mind bender. The big bang model makes it sound like the universe started at a point and exploded for some reason, spraying matter out into empty space, but that isn?t really what it is saying. We aren?t inside a 3D sphere so much as we are on the three-dimensional surface of a 4 dimensional hypersphere. For some reason, the hypersphere is expanding, which means the 3-dimensional space on the hypersurface is expanding, which is why stuff seems to be going away from us. Note I am not claiming to understand it, but doing the math helps, just as calculus helps the physics student. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Thu Aug 26 11:37:54 2021 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 07:37:54 -0400 Subject: [ExI] bikers again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48EBF855-B21D-4252-B8BC-4D40EC5B6EB2@alumni.virginia.edu> About Sturgis this year and last: South Dakota COVID cases explode after Sturgis motorcycle rally https://www.alternet.org/2021/08/south-dakota-sturgis/ ?In 2020, the event was such a massive superspreader that 5 million cases could be traced back to the rally.? > On Sep 4, 2020, at 7:14 PM, Henry Rivera wrote: > > ?We do that in Mass. But I see your point that all places should do so. The Feds could strong-arm standardization among the states by, say, making some funding contingent on it. We need(ed) better leadership for that to have happened if you ask me. > > > > >> On Sep 4, 2020, at 5:30 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> ? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Henry Rivera >> Sent: Friday, September 4, 2020 2:12 PM >> To: ExI chat list >> Cc: spike at rainier66.com >> Subject: Re: [ExI] bikers again >> >> What does this refer to specifically? >> >>>> On Sep 4, 2020, at 4:08 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat >>> wrote: >>> and the failure to break out nursing home deaths, >> >> >> Hi Henry, take all covid fatalities, separate all those who lived in a >> nursing home or long term care facility. List the numbers separately. >> Here's an example of where that is being done: >> >> https://www.sccgov.org/sites/covid19/Pages/dashboard-cases.aspx >> >> This is useful information. The green bars are nursing homers. Looks like >> about half of the fatalities are there, and we already know the really >> super-annuated almost all live in a nursing home. But if we treat those as >> two separate groups and do our demographics similarly, the risk to older >> non-nursing homers isn't nearly as disturbing, and Henry there is a reason >> why I keep going on about that. >> >> Any distortion of the risk picture introduces new risks. >> >> For instance... my father's second cousin is one of my genealogy partners. >> He lives practically within walking distance of the hospital where I was >> born (he was born there too) and has never moved. It is a small hospital: >> everybody knows everybody there. >> >> When the covid emergency began, many regular customers stopped coming. My >> cousin continued but he isn't afraid of much (he faced the Viet Cong in >> 1963, a virus doesn't scare him.) Not enough customers, the hospital had to >> close its doors. He didn't re-establish contacts at the hospital over in >> the big city. His prescriptions ran out. Fluid built up around his heart, >> he wound up in the ER at the hospital he had previously refused to >> patronize, hoping for the best with his congestive heart failure. >> >> He survived after a really bad night hooked up to the old blibbity beepers >> (his term (wonderfully descriptive (not overly technical (but everyone here >> knows what he means.)))) >> >> But otherwise he would be an example of a patient who died OF covid WITHOUT >> covid. >> >> Distortion of the risk matrix introduces new risk. >> >> spike >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 26 13:23:06 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 06:23:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] bikers again In-Reply-To: <48EBF855-B21D-4252-B8BC-4D40EC5B6EB2@alumni.virginia.edu> References: <48EBF855-B21D-4252-B8BC-4D40EC5B6EB2@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: <005601d79a7d$8260cb10$87226130$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Henry Rivera via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] bikers again About Sturgis this year and last: South Dakota COVID cases explode after Sturgis motorcycle rally https://www.alternet.org/2021/08/south-dakota-sturgis/ ?In 2020, the event was such a massive superspreader that 5 million cases could be traced back to the rally.? But it couldn?t. After the fact, most of these articles were debunked because they lacked evidence. After they looked at the number of Sturgis attendees who caught covid, it was lower than the background average. Covid cases rose in South Dakota, because it was lower than the US average beforehand. People coming in from other states had the average rate. So it spread to South Dakota in that event and the others, such as the state fair and school going back that week. The Sturgis rally happens at back to school week everywhere. For that reason, we need to trace origins carefully. Lotsa stuff happens in the last week of August and first week of September. Apparently the Sturgis crowd is sophisticated. We are told that sophisticated people are protected, such as the ones who attended Obama?s birthday party and the rained-out CNN concert. Apparently the Sturgis crowd is sophisticated too. As last year?s Sturgis rally approach, we recognized what a golden opportunity to gather data it was, then afterwards I whined and complained that it was mostly squandered. The articles seemed to be written beforehand with a preconceived outcome, then little data to back up the claims. Not only was science left behind, trust was diminished. One chance after another was wasted, and we didn?t learn much from it because we didn?t have good enough tracking systems. Back then we didn?t know if covid infects people outdoors. Now we think it mostly doesn?t. Covid prefers the great indoors. Most of the Sturgis rally happens outdoors. An entire year went by and (as far as I know) we again blew a perfect opportunity to gather data. Daytona Biketoberfest 2020 came and went, two Daytona Speed Weeks have come and gone, good opportunities to gather data, lots of partying, nobody wearing masks, lots of go-to-hell libertarian anti-vaxers, lots of people camping on the beach, so where?s the data on all that? Sturgis is an even better laboratory: isolated, easy to trace if new cases result, etc. But It takes preparation. I don?t know if the public health profession got it together this time. Hope so. Henry do you know? Perhaps they lost interest after they found out last year?s Sturgis rally wasn?t a super spreader, nor were the BLM riots, the birthday parties, the CNN concerts, none of that stuff. It?s still nursing homes and indoor parties, and even then we don?t really know because people might be covering their tracks intentionally. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 04:27:34 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 21:27:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Launch company Rocket Lab goes public Message-ID: "With our Electron rocket and *Photon spacecraft* , we've simplified space, making it easy and affordable for companies, scientists, governments and entrepreneurs alike to get their ideas to orbit," he added. "Today, we take the next step toward unlocking the full potential of space, paving the way for our larger Neutron launch vehicle which will deploy the constellations of the future, and supporting our potential future expansion into space applications. I am thrilled to declare space open for business." Going public is something of a trend in the space business these days. For example, Rocket Lab competitor *Astra went public on June 30* , becoming the first launch company ever to do so. (Astra co-founder and CEO Chris Kemp got to ring the Nasdaq bell, too.) And another small-satellite launch company, Virgin Orbit, *announced a SPAC deal of its own* just this week." https://www.space.com/rocket-lab-goes-public-spac-merger -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 04:38:43 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 21:38:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] OP-ED: The billionaire space race reflects a colonial mindset that fails to imagine a different world Message-ID: A history professor weighs in on the current approach to industrializing and colonizing our solar system... He sees similarities with 17th century European expansionism..."A failure of the imagination" "The techno-utopian visions of Musk and Bezos betray some of the same assumptions as their early modern forebears. They offer colonialism as a panacea for complex social, political and economic ills, rather than attempting to work towards a better world within the constraints of our environment. And rather than facing the palpably devastating consequences of an ideology of limitless growth on our planet, they seek to export it, unaltered, into space. They imagine themselves capable of creating liveable environments where none exist. But for all their futuristic imagery, they have failed to imagine a different world. And they have ignored the history of colonialism on this one. Empire never recreated Eden, but it did fuel centuries of growth based on expropriation, enslavement and environmental transformation in defiance of all limits. We are struggling with these consequences today." https://www.space.com/billionaire-space-race-colonial-mindset -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 04:42:16 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 21:42:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Tiangong=3A_astronauts_are_working_on_China=27s_?= =?utf-8?q?new_space_station_=E2=80=94_here=27s_what_to_expect?= Message-ID: "Aside from the core module, the pressurized modules of the current Tiangong space station will consist of two laboratories, Mengtian ("heavenly dreams") and Wentian ("heavenly quest"), which will be launched over the next few years. The design of each of these laboratory modules will be based on Tiangong-2's facilities. Unlike the International Space Station, where the bulk of electrical power to all modules is supplied by large solar arrays on purpose-built gantries, on Tiangong each module launched carries its own solar array. Once complete, Tiangong will weigh over 60 tonnes, be capable of hosting three astronauts for extended stays in space, and will have the capacity to support future spacewalks and science experiments. These can be mounted both inside the pressurized modules or on deployable racks outside in space." https://www.space.com/tiangong-china-space-station-what-to-expect -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 04:48:39 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 21:48:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Alien 'Dyson spheres' could be harvesting the power of black holes Message-ID: "Aliens could place a large satellite in a stable orbit around a black hole and then collect X-ray energy using something akin to solar panels, study coauthor Tomotsugu Goto, also of National Tsing Hua University, told Live Science. They might also build a ring-like structure around the black hole or totally surround it with platforms, much like in Freeman Dyson's original proposal, Goto added, though each of these would be increasingly complex and challenging to construct. In either case, a black hole could radiate up to 100,000 times more energy than a star like the sun, meaning that a celestial species would have a lot of power to work with, the researchers wrote in a paper published July 1 in the journal *Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society* . After being absorbed and used, the energy from a cosmic object would have to be reradiated or else it would build up and eventually melt the Dyson sphere, as Dyson noted *in his 1960 paper* . This energy would be shifted to longer wavelengths, so a Dyson sphere around a black hole might give off an unexplainable energy signature in the ultraviolet or infrared, the researchers said. Several instruments, including NASA's space-based Wide-field Infrared Survey Explorer (WISE) and the Pan-STARRS telescope in Hawaii, have cataloged billions of objects during their detailed surveys of the night sky, Goto said. Should Dyson spheres around black holes actually exist, it's possible that their telltale signs have already been recorded by such detectors, he added." https://www.livescience.com/alien-dyson-spheres-suck-black-hole-energy.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 04:54:07 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 21:54:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Johnson & Johnson booster shot increases antibodies to coronavirus nine-fold, company says Message-ID: "More than 14 million people in the U.S. received the single-dose Johnson & Johnson vaccine. Today's data, taken from clinical trial participants, suggests that a booster may be beneficial. A booster dose of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine generated a nine-fold increase in antibodies compared to the level seen 28 days after the initial dose, the company reported in a statement . The data is based on two small clinical trials conducted in the U.S. and in Europe, and the company submitted the results, which haven't yet been peer-reviewed, to the preprint database medRxiv. "We have established that a single shot of our COVID-19 vaccine generates strong and robust immune responses that are durable and persistent through eight months," Dr. Mathai Mammen, the Global Head of Janssen Research & Development at Johnson & Johnson, said in the statement. "With these new data, we also see that a booster dose of the Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 vaccine further increases antibody responses among study participants who had previously received our vaccine." Mammen added that they will discuss potential strategies for booster doses with public health officials." https://www.livescience.com/johnson-and-johnson-booster-increases-antibodies-covid.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 26 13:53:13 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 08:53:13 -0500 Subject: [ExI] infinity In-Reply-To: <000201d79a33$a5ab3730$f101a590$@rainier66.com> References: <002701d79a03$779c9990$66d5ccb0$@rainier66.com> <000201d79a33$a5ab3730$f101a590$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I just don't think that evolution prepared us to think in more than three dimensions - at least visually. You can talk about 3d as a shadow of a 4d thing but that just doesn't compute! bill w On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 11:36 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *..*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] infinity > > > > >?Think four dimensional, Spike? I could not find that in Wikipedia. > Oops, actually, I did. My brain is too old for that kind of thinking, so I > guess we can leave this topic for good. bill w > > > > > > It is a mind bender. The big bang model makes it sound like the universe > started at a point and exploded for some reason, spraying matter out into > empty space, but that isn?t really what it is saying. We aren?t inside a > 3D sphere so much as we are on the three-dimensional surface of a 4 > dimensional hypersphere. For some reason, the hypersphere is expanding, > which means the 3-dimensional space on the hypersurface is expanding, which > is why stuff seems to be going away from us. > > > > Note I am not claiming to understand it, but doing the math helps, just as > calculus helps the physics student. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 04:56:59 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 21:56:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 vaccine effectiveness dropped to 66% against delta, CDC finds Message-ID: "The *delta variant* has dealt a blow to *COVID-19 vaccine* effectiveness, which has dropped by about 25 percentage points since the variant became the dominant strain of coronavirus in the U.S., a new study among healthcare workers finds. The study, from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), found that the vaccines' effectiveness against COVID-19 infections declined from 91% prior to the delta variant's emergence, to 66% after the rise of the delta variant in the summer. Despite this "moderate reduction," health officials stressed that "the sustained two-thirds reduction in infection risk underscores the continued importance and benefits of COVID-19 vaccination," the authors wrote in the study, published Tuesday (Aug. 24) in the CDC journal *Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report (MMWR)* . The study is based on information from more than 4,000 health care workers in six U.S. states (Arizona, Florida, Minnesota, Oregon, Texas and Utah), from mid-December 2020 through mid-August 2021. During the study period (both before and after the rise of the delta variant), the effectiveness of COVID-19 vaccines against infection was 80%, the study found. Eight-three percent of healthcare workers in the study were vaccinated; 65% had received the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, 33% had received the Moderna vaccine and 2% had received the Johnson & Johnson vaccine." https://www.livescience.com/covid-19-vaccine-effectiveness-delta-cdc.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 05:03:57 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 22:03:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] A New Chip Cluster Will Make Massive AI Models Possible Message-ID: "Cerebras Systems , a startup that has already built the world?s largest computer chip , has now developed technology that lets a cluster of those chips run AI models that are more than a hundred times bigger than the most gargantuan ones around today. Cerebras says it can now run a neural network with 120 trillion connections, mathematical simulations of the interplay between biological neurons and synapses. The largest AI models in existence today have about a trillion connections, and they cost many millions of dollars to build and train. But Cerebras says its hardware will run calculations in about a 50th of the time of existing hardware. Its chip cluster, along with power and cooling requirements, presumably still won?t come cheap, but Cerberas at least claims its tech will be substantially more efficient." https://www.wired.com/story/cerebras-chip-cluster-neural-networks-ai/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Thu Aug 26 14:14:33 2021 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 10:14:33 -0400 Subject: [ExI] bikers again In-Reply-To: <005601d79a7d$8260cb10$87226130$@rainier66.com> References: <005601d79a7d$8260cb10$87226130$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <1479F198-3C0A-4D22-BF8F-BAD765D2EBB8@alumni.virginia.edu> I really don?t know. > On Aug 26, 2021, at 9:23 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > I don?t know if the public health profession got it together this time. Hope so. Henry do you know? From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 26 14:23:11 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 07:23:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] infinity In-Reply-To: References: <002701d79a03$779c9990$66d5ccb0$@rainier66.com> <000201d79a33$a5ab3730$f101a590$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00bd01d79a85$e7017800$b5046800$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] infinity >?I just don't think that evolution prepared us to think in more than three dimensions - at least visually. You can talk about 3d as a shadow of a 4d thing but that just doesn't compute! bill w Ja agree, it?s a mind bender. When I heard the big bang model while still thinking in three space dimensions and time as a different thing, I realized that the red shift looking one direction should be higher than if we look in the other direction. But we don?t see that. The red shift coefficient is the same any direction we look. This would lead to the conclusion that our galaxy was coincidentally at the center of the giant cherry bomb to start with, out of all these skerjillions of galaxies. If our space is the three dimensional surface of 4D spacetime, then the red shift should be just as it appears. Billw, it helps the imagination to do the math. Agree it is out of reach for most of us, specifically those who didn?t master multivariable calculus while still a young person. I can work the equations to some extent but the real mathematicians have no trouble with these concepts. To those guys, more dimensions are just additional Greek letters in their equations, no problem. Perhaps you are familiar with Abbott?s Flatland? Granted it is mostly a social commentary and a bit politically incorrect in our hypersensitive times, but informative in its way. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Aug 26 14:34:20 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 07:34:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] OP-ED: The billionaire space race reflects a colonial mindset that fails to imagine a different world In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Who exactly is there to enslave in space? And what environment would be transformed? These factors alone, not to mention the vastly increased importance of technical competence for survival, will make space colonies rather different than historical colonies. On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 6:41 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > A history professor weighs in on the current approach to industrializing > and colonizing our solar system... He sees similarities with 17th century > European expansionism..."A failure of the imagination" > > "The techno-utopian visions of Musk and Bezos betray some of the same > assumptions as their early modern forebears. They offer colonialism as a > panacea for complex social, political and economic ills, rather than > attempting to work towards a better world within the constraints of our > environment. > > And rather than facing the palpably devastating consequences of an > ideology of limitless growth on our planet, they seek to export it, > unaltered, into space. They imagine themselves capable of creating liveable > environments where none exist. > > But for all their futuristic imagery, they have failed to imagine a > different world. And they have ignored the history of colonialism on this > one. Empire never recreated Eden, but it did fuel centuries of growth based > on expropriation, enslavement and environmental transformation in defiance > of all limits. We are struggling with these consequences today." > https://www.space.com/billionaire-space-race-colonial-mindset > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Aug 26 14:46:03 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 07:46:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarian ideas In-Reply-To: <4c6a9047-b85c-2f84-cd8d-afb9ffba43f5@zaiboc.net> References: <4c6a9047-b85c-2f84-cd8d-afb9ffba43f5@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 1:21 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 24/08/2021 18:51, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > "Technology often tramples the giving and limiting of rights, by > granting rights in a way that concerned people can not stop" > > I nominate this for the Extropian Quote of the Year. > Thank you. :) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 26 14:47:39 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 07:47:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] OP-ED: The billionaire space race reflects a colonial mindset that fails to imagine a different world In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00ca01d79a89$51978300$f4c68900$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] OP-ED: The billionaire space race reflects a colonial mindset that fails to imagine a different world >?Who exactly is there to enslave in space? If Seven Of Nine is out there, I will buy her. Granted my bride might not like the notion, but she may go along with it if we buy Commander Riker too. >?These factors alone, not to mention the vastly increased importance of technical competence for survival, will make space colonies rather different than historical colonies? Adrian Well said Adrian. This article is really about conflicting models of the future rather than specifically about space exploration. It is worth thinking about: many hold to a model which (reasonably) suggests that growth on this planet really isn?t forever. At some point population growth must slow and stop. We currently quarrel over how that happens and how many people will be here when it does, but even ExI people need to think about it. I picture a kind of Jetsons world where there is enough of everything and population growth is somehow solved. Hope so. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Aug 26 15:11:18 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 08:11:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] OP-ED: The billionaire space race reflects a colonial mindset that fails to imagine a different world In-Reply-To: <00ca01d79a89$51978300$f4c68900$@rainier66.com> References: <00ca01d79a89$51978300$f4c68900$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 7:53 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > It is worth thinking about: many hold to a model which (reasonably) > suggests that growth on this planet really isn?t forever. At some point > population growth must slow and stop. We currently quarrel over how that > happens and how many people will be here when it does, but even ExI people > need to think about it. > > > > I picture a kind of Jetsons world where there is enough of everything and > population growth is somehow solved. Hope so. > It's been widely observed that population growth is naturally slowing as more people become part of industrialized society, and some places are well below the replacement rate already. The current trend would eventually see human population begin to shrink, which I fear would have negative consequences for humanity. This is why some of the science fiction I have written envisions a day when human population growth is artificially maintained "for the good of society" (read: for the benefit of those who already exist) such as via mass cloning and, more importantly, state-sponsored/natural-parent-less child raising (with an option for natural childbirth and traditional child raising for those who want to do so - just, it's something that only a small minority of people choose to do). What happens when most people never had a mother or a father, other than whatever government paid for their creation? This might be a self-reinforcing trend: once the first clones are old enough to vote, they would seem likely to vote for more cloning, and perhaps investment in improving the raising process. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Aug 26 15:30:35 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 08:30:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] is it real? In-Reply-To: <001601d79945$e827e200$b877a600$@rainier66.com> References: <001601d79945$e827e200$b877a600$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: It's real. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Assistant and other sources. On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 5:14 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > I don?t know if this is real or was faked but I am inclined to believe > it. If so, it is wicked cool: > > > > Google's AI Assistant Can Now Make Real Phone Calls - YouTube > > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 26 15:52:48 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 08:52:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] FW: bikers again In-Reply-To: <010701d79a8f$f68b63d0$e3a22b70$@rainier66.com> References: <48EBF855-B21D-4252-B8BC-4D40EC5B6EB2@alumni.virginia.edu> <005601d79a7d$8260cb10$87226130$@rainier66.com> <010701d79a8f$f68b63d0$e3a22b70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <012101d79a92$6cc43660$464ca320$@rainier66.com> ? Subject: Re: [ExI] bikers again About Sturgis this year and last: South Dakota COVID cases explode after Sturgis motorcycle rally https://www.alternet.org/2021/08/south-dakota-sturgis/ ?In 2020, the event was such a massive superspreader that 5 million cases could be traced back to the rally.? Update: Some of you may recall I am in a touring bike club where we ride an obscure market failure, Suzuki?s attempt to compete with Honda?s Gold Wing. They built this bike only three years in the mid 80s, then no more. A few hundred examples still run, and mine is among them. We call ourselves the OBOOBs, for Old Boys On Old Bikes. This is a photo taken about 15 yrs ago as I was heading out to a local rally. Recall I mentioned our club is almost all older people. I am one of the youngest ones at 60. I don?t think to this day we ever did get a younger member, for I bought this bike new when I was 24, and it was kinda an old man?s bike at that time, but I liked it because it is such a comfortable road-couch, cruise all day, no problem: Our club likes to have national level rallies in places like Branson and Sturgis, but not during the big Sturgis rally. They like to arrange it for afterwards, because Sturgis doesn?t have enough hotels, so most of the bikers camp. But isn?t really the sleep-on-the-ground crowd. Some will camp, I will, but most are older couples who like to stay in hotels. Sturgis does have a few of those, plenty enough for our club. So... we arrange to do OBOOB rallies in Sturgis after the biker crowd goes home, in about first week of October. Last year we had a big debate online about whether to cancel because of covid. I chose to sit it out. About 30 OBOOBs went ahead, knowing that for a lot of them, plenty in their 80s, that might be their last ride. Well? it was for two of them. One died of covid related, not clear if it came from the rally or the trip there or the trip back, or none of the above. Kinda looks like he caught after returning home, but it isn?t clear. He went into the hospital 11 days after the last contact at Sturgis. The other perished of natural causes, which were anticipated in his case. OK, this year a repeat. I again chose to sit this one out. The others are heading out in a few weeks, knowing this very well might be their last rumble. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 31544 bytes Desc: not available URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Thu Aug 26 16:31:50 2021 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 12:31:50 -0400 Subject: [ExI] infinity In-Reply-To: <00bd01d79a85$e7017800$b5046800$@rainier66.com> References: <002701d79a03$779c9990$66d5ccb0$@rainier66.com> <000201d79a33$a5ab3730$f101a590$@rainier66.com> <00bd01d79a85$e7017800$b5046800$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 10:28 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > If our space is the three dimensional surface of 4D spacetime, then the > red shift should be just as it appears. > > > > Billw, it helps the imagination to do the math. Agree it is out of reach > for most of us, specifically those who didn?t master multivariable calculus > while still a young person. I can work the equations to some extent but > the real mathematicians have no trouble with these concepts. To those > guys, more dimensions are just additional Greek letters in their equations, > no problem. > > > > Perhaps you are familiar with Abbott?s Flatland? Granted it is mostly a > social commentary and a bit politically incorrect in our hypersensitive > times, but informative in its way. > > > I like math, but I don't think approaching the problem from equations is 'intuitive' for most people. We learned how a ball hit from home plate lands in the outfield by playing baseball; years later we have a physics class explaining the parabolic trajectory of a frictionless vacuum. Maybe you 'weren't into sports'? So instead you had a computer game involving monkeys throwing bananas at each other? Or perhaps angle and power launching a penguin, or chucking a bird at some pigs? In all these examples: play. Physicists have some seriously expensive toys to learn how the universe works. :) Flatland helped me think of analogies in higher and lower dimensions. I like the visualization of your 3d surface of 4d spacetime with the analogy of a 2d surface on a 3d balloon. The inhabitants of the surface of the balloon invent all manner of "dark energy" to explain the inflationary breath that makes the surface of the balloon expand. We have no issue thinking about adding more air volume. Probably could even figure out how a given volume of air will affect the stretchiness of the balloon to contain it... eventually we'd get a formula for how much air and how much stretchiness determines the size of the balloon. I'm not sure we're at a perfect formula for our universe. Do they have to be Greek letters though? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 26 16:46:01 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 11:46:01 -0500 Subject: [ExI] is it real? In-Reply-To: References: <001601d79945$e827e200$b877a600$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Do we think that Google is overall doing good things with the billions they have made? I think they have lived up to 'Don't be Evil' but are they doing what tech people want and ordinary citizens want and need? bill w On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 10:33 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > It's real. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Assistant and other > sources. > > On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 5:14 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> I don?t know if this is real or was faked but I am inclined to believe >> it. If so, it is wicked cool: >> >> >> >> Google's AI Assistant Can Now Make Real Phone Calls - YouTube >> >> >> >> >> spike >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Aug 26 17:03:55 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 10:03:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] is it real? In-Reply-To: References: <001601d79945$e827e200$b877a600$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Of course they are not in complete thrall to the whims and wishes of the general public ("what ordinary citizens want and need"). Why would it be reasonable to expect them to be? On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 9:47 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Do we think that Google is overall doing good things with the billions > they have made? I think they have lived up to 'Don't be Evil' but are they > doing what tech people want and ordinary citizens want and need? bill w > > On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 10:33 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> It's real. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Assistant and other >> sources. >> >> On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 5:14 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> I don?t know if this is real or was faked but I am inclined to believe >>> it. If so, it is wicked cool: >>> >>> >>> >>> Google's AI Assistant Can Now Make Real Phone Calls - YouTube >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> spike >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Aug 26 17:09:27 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 18:09:27 +0100 Subject: [ExI] is it real? In-Reply-To: References: <001601d79945$e827e200$b877a600$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Aug 2021 at 17:48, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Do we think that Google is overall doing good things with the billions they have made? >I think they have lived up to 'Don't be Evil' but are they doing what tech people want and ordinary citizens want and need? bill w > _______________________________________________ In 2015, when Google was reorganized under Alphabet in a corporate restructure, the motto was quietly changed to ?do the right thing?. Quotes: Is Google evil? Evil is a strong word and the simple fact that they removed this phrase from their code of conduct and other communications does not mean that they did so because they now want to be evil. However, it is clear that Google has struggled to stay true to its original motivations, with numerous scandals over the years suggesting that they prioritise profits over doing good. ----------- Use Startpage or DuckDuckGo instead. (No tracking or profile recording). BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 26 17:11:29 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 12:11:29 -0500 Subject: [ExI] is it real? In-Reply-To: References: <001601d79945$e827e200$b877a600$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 12:06 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Of course they are not in complete thrall to the whims and wishes of the > general public ("what ordinary citizens want and need"). Why would it be > reasonable to expect them to be? > Isn't that what companies in business with the public do? I guess I am asking this: could Google do more or different in the tech field with their money than they are doing now? (or any field, such as charity work or the sort of thing Bill Gates does) bill w > > On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 9:47 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Do we think that Google is overall doing good things with the billions >> they have made? I think they have lived up to 'Don't be Evil' but are they >> doing what tech people want and ordinary citizens want and need? bill w >> >> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 10:33 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> It's real. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Assistant and >>> other sources. >>> >>> On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 5:14 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I don?t know if this is real or was faked but I am inclined to believe >>>> it. If so, it is wicked cool: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Google's AI Assistant Can Now Make Real Phone Calls - YouTube >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> spike >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 26 17:15:57 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 12:15:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] is it real? In-Reply-To: References: <001601d79945$e827e200$b877a600$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Y'know, Bill K, I do not care who tracks me or knows what I purchase or where I do. The illegal things I do I do not put on the internet. In fact, I have clicked on ads that I get because I searched for something similar. To me, that's helpful! I am going to get ads anyway, so why not have them be targeted rather than random? bill w On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 12:12 PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, 26 Aug 2021 at 17:48, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > Do we think that Google is overall doing good things with the billions > they have made? > >I think they have lived up to 'Don't be Evil' but are they doing what > tech people want and ordinary citizens want and need? bill w > > _______________________________________________ > > > In 2015, when Google was reorganized under Alphabet in a corporate > restructure, the motto was quietly changed to ?do the right thing?. > > > Quotes: > > Is Google evil? > Evil is a strong word and the simple fact that they removed this > phrase from their code of conduct and other communications does not > mean that they did so because they now want to be evil. > > However, it is clear that Google has struggled to stay true to its > original motivations, with numerous scandals over the years suggesting > that they prioritise profits over doing good. > ----------- > > Use Startpage or DuckDuckGo instead. (No tracking or profile recording). > > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 26 17:40:25 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 10:40:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] infinity In-Reply-To: References: <002701d79a03$779c9990$66d5ccb0$@rainier66.com> <000201d79a33$a5ab3730$f101a590$@rainier66.com> <00bd01d79a85$e7017800$b5046800$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004601d79aa1$74ae9690$5e0bc3b0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat ? >? I like math, but I don't think approaching the problem from equations is 'intuitive' for most people. We learned how a ball hit from home plate lands in the outfield by playing baseball; years later we have a physics class explaining the parabolic trajectory of a frictionless vacuum?. Hi Mike, For understanding baseball trajectories, Newtonian physics is perfect. For most of cosmology, Newtonian physicist is outta luck. There is no way to understand why black holes merge the way we see and why it creates a signal for which we already knew what it would look like before they ever started building an enormous expensive instrument to detect. >? Maybe you 'weren't into sports'? Played little league baseball. Always preferred racing sports, on foot, bicycle, motorcycle, etc. I played chess, but some claim that isn?t really a sport. >? So instead you had a computer game? Pong. Only. Game console only played pong. I predate personal computers. >?Flatland helped me think of analogies in higher and lower dimensions. I like the visualization of your 3d surface of 4d spacetime with the analogy of a 2d surface on a 3d balloon? Ja and even then, the analogy is kinda misleading in some ways. Once we visualize 4D spacetime as our existing on the 3D surface volume of 4D hypersphere, the obvious question is: OK then, where does the time dimension go? Well, you can think of it as if it were possible to look toward the center of the hypersphere, that is past, and the other direction is future, but that too is confusing to us as 3D beasts. Reason: if we look an any of the 3 space dimensions we can perceive, we are looking into the past. That works regardless of which direction we look. We think we can see the past, and some claim to see the future, but really we don?t. We can?t see the time axis any more than the Flatlanders could see above and below. They could only imagine it. >?Do they have to be Greek letters though? Only if you want to look like a hipster mathematician. Otherwise they see those ABC letters and know you are an engineer and give you that pitying look as if to say: Primitive savage! You design three dimensional objects? Sorry these matters are simply beyond your understanding. Come back when or if you master multivariable calculus? That sorta thing. Pisses ya off. Because in this case they are right. They remind you of Sheldon from Big Bang. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 26 17:44:18 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 10:44:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] is it real? In-Reply-To: References: <001601d79945$e827e200$b877a600$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005b01d79aa1$ff4baa40$fde2fec0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] is it real? >?Do we think that Google is overall doing good things with the billions they have made? There is no way to know. Google is a collection of stockholders who have enjoyed marvelous returns on their investments. Google?s billions in reserve belong to the stockholders. >? I think they have lived up to 'Don't be Evil'? Indeed sir? >?but are they doing what tech people want and ordinary citizens want and need? bill w Tech people who are Google stockholders and ordinary citizens who are Google stockholders, ja. That?s what companies do: make money and answer to the Board of Directors, who are the ones representing the stockholders interests. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 26 19:05:12 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 14:05:12 -0500 Subject: [ExI] is it real? In-Reply-To: <005b01d79aa1$ff4baa40$fde2fec0$@rainier66.com> References: <001601d79945$e827e200$b877a600$@rainier66.com> <005b01d79aa1$ff4baa40$fde2fec0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 12:48 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] is it real? > > > > >?Do we think that Google is overall doing good things with the billions > they have made? > > > > There is no way to know. Google is a collection of stockholders who have > enjoyed marvelous returns on their investments. Google?s billions in > reserve belong to the stockholders. > > > > >? I think they have lived up to 'Don't be Evil'? > > > > Indeed sir? > > > > >?but are they doing what tech people want and ordinary citizens want and > need? bill w > > > > Tech people who are Google stockholders and ordinary citizens who are > Google stockholders, ja. That?s what companies do: make money and answer > to the Board of Directors, who are the ones representing the stockholders > interests. > > > > spike > I think this is the biggest nonanswer I have ever seen. I don't know how much money they have to invest, anymore than I know how people who invest in startups in the tech sector are using their money and how much they have. I just wanted to get a general idea. Should more money go to project A or B? To smartphones or space projects.? What cool things are being held back if any? Do you agree with what they (and not only Google) are trying to make progress in? That's all. (and please explain the "Indeed, sir?" comment) > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 26 19:13:37 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 14:13:37 -0500 Subject: [ExI] OP-ED: The billionaire space race reflects a colonial mindset that fails to imagine a different world In-Reply-To: References: <00ca01d79a89$51978300$f4c68900$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: adrian wrote: The current trend would eventually see human population begin to shrink, which I fear would have negative consequences for humanity. Yeah? Just what? I see a boon for the slowing and reversing of the loss of habitat for those animals who share the planet with us. Do we want animals to exist only in zoos? And the regrowth of forests and the Amazon Basin, etc. Not going to make it easy on supporting retired folks, I reckon. bill w On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 10:13 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 7:53 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> It is worth thinking about: many hold to a model which (reasonably) >> suggests that growth on this planet really isn?t forever. At some point >> population growth must slow and stop. We currently quarrel over how that >> happens and how many people will be here when it does, but even ExI people >> need to think about it. >> >> >> >> I picture a kind of Jetsons world where there is enough of everything and >> population growth is somehow solved. Hope so. >> > > It's been widely observed that population growth is naturally slowing as > more people become part of industrialized society, and some places are well > below the replacement rate already. The current trend would eventually see > human population begin to shrink, which I fear would have negative > consequences for humanity. > > This is why some of the science fiction I have written envisions a day > when human population growth is artificially maintained "for the good of > society" (read: for the benefit of those who already exist) such as via > mass cloning and, more importantly, state-sponsored/natural-parent-less > child raising (with an option for natural childbirth and traditional child > raising for those who want to do so - just, it's something that only a > small minority of people choose to do). What happens when most people > never had a mother or a father, other than whatever government paid for > their creation? This might be a self-reinforcing trend: once the first > clones are old enough to vote, they would seem likely to vote for more > cloning, and perhaps investment in improving the raising process. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Aug 26 19:23:51 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 12:23:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] OP-ED: The billionaire space race reflects a colonial mindset that fails to imagine a different world In-Reply-To: References: <00ca01d79a89$51978300$f4c68900$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 12:15 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > adrian wrote: > The current trend would eventually see human population begin to shrink, > which I fear would have negative consequences for humanity. > > Yeah? Just what? > At a simple extreme, extinction. Short of that, a lot of modern technology is only feasible because it has a large number of users. Chip fabs to support billions are easier to make and scale up than chip fabs that only support millions, let alone thousands. Without feasibility, the technology ceases to exist. Imagine if the effort to make computer chips was ruinously expensive per chip - and thus, no more computers were made - if human population had decreased to the point that there weren't enough users to make chips cheap. Now imagine that for food production, sanitation, medicine, and other basics of life. The impacts would not be as soon or as extreme, but they would be there. I see a boon for the slowing and reversing of the loss of habitat for those > animals who share the planet with us. Do we want animals to exist only in > zoos? And the regrowth of forests and the Amazon Basin, etc. > Note I said "for humanity". Humanity could (in theory) skip right off Earth into orbiting colonies that could provide vastly better quality of life than exists today, and those benefits to Earth's environment would still happen. > Not going to make it easy on supporting retired folks, I reckon. bill w > That is already being seen, with a mere slowdown in growth. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 26 20:22:07 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 13:22:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] is it real? In-Reply-To: References: <001601d79945$e827e200$b877a600$@rainier66.com> <005b01d79aa1$ff4baa40$fde2fec0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002c01d79ab8$0b4748c0$21d5da40$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat ? >? I think they have lived up to 'Don't be Evil'? Indeed sir? >?but are they doing what tech people want and ordinary citizens want and need? bill w >?I think this is the biggest nonanswer I have ever seen? Google isn?t in business to help people Billw. Google is in business to make money. This is no different from any other public company. There is nothing wrong with that: it?s what companies are for. >?but are they doing what tech people want and ordinary citizens want and need? bill w I would say no, for tech people and ordinary citizens don?t want filtered searches. >>>? I think they have lived up to 'Don't be Evil'? >>Indeed sir? >?(and please explain the "Indeed, sir?" comment) I see plenty of compelling evidence that Google steers people away from some kinds of searches. Otherwise the results on Google would match more closely the results on DuckDuckGo. The autofill feature is another example of Google trying to channel inquiry. This is not good. I will offer in Google?s defense that they no longer have the phrase ?Don?t be evil? in their mission statement or company creed. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Thu Aug 26 20:39:07 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 21:39:07 +0100 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 215, Issue 40 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <60f6220a-8bc3-3e87-67a9-65f889cacf20@zaiboc.net> On 26/08/2021 16:11, Spike wrote: > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] OP-ED: The billionaire space race reflects a > colonial mindset that fails to imagine a different world > > >?Who exactly is there to enslave in space? > > If Seven Of Nine is out there, I will buy her.? Granted my bride might > not like the notion, but she may go along with it if we buy Commander > Riker too. > > > > >?These factors alone, not to mention the vastly increased importance > of technical competence for survival, will make space colonies rather > different than historical colonies?? Adrian > > Well said Adrian.? This article is really about conflicting models of > the future rather than specifically about space exploration.? It is > worth thinking about: many hold to a model which (reasonably) suggests > that growth on this planet really isn?t forever.? At some point > population growth must slow and stop.? We currently quarrel over how > that happens and how many people will be here when it does, but even > ExI people need to think about it. > > I picture a kind of Jetsons world where there is enough of everything > and population growth is somehow solved.? Hope so. > Life-extension. That's how to solve population growth problems. Sounds counter-intuitive ("won't that make things worse?"), but do the maths. Not only will it reduce population growth, but it will encourage people to behave more responsibly, and I have to say, even though I hate the term, 'sustainably'. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 26 21:03:39 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 14:03:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] OP-ED: The billionaire space race reflects a colonial mindset that fails to imagine a different world In-Reply-To: References: <00ca01d79a89$51978300$f4c68900$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004201d79abd$d88329d0$89897d70$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat >?- if human population had decreased to the point that there weren't enough users to make chips cheap. Now imagine that for food production, sanitation, medicine, and other basics of life. The impacts would not be as soon or as extreme, but they would be there?. Excellent point, and I might be able to carry it a little further. We often overlook how critically important is the phenomenon of economies of scale, being scarcely aware of how huge this is. Adrian uses the concept of chip fabs, for without huge potential demand, we won?t build new ones. We don?t know what will happen if BitCoin stops creating huge demand for high performance chips. Good chance no one will invest in new fabs. Adrian points out that food, sanitation, medicine, everything is as cheap as it is because of economies of scale, and never is this so clear as if you substantially rebuild a car or motorcycle. If you start adding up the cost of parts, it is easy to reach the price of a new car with a tenth of its parts bought separately. The economy of scale does its magic, the car factory not only gives you all the parts at a tenth their retail price but assembles them and puts them in a showroom for you. Without the economy of scale, cars would be ten times more expensive and very few could afford them. If we try to grow enough food on our own land and assuming your manual labor is free (since it is exercise) it is still very difficult to compete with grocery store produce. Conclusion: at our current population and density, we are completely dependent on the economy of scale. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 26 21:14:54 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 16:14:54 -0500 Subject: [ExI] OP-ED: The billionaire space race reflects a colonial mindset that fails to imagine a different world In-Reply-To: References: <00ca01d79a89$51978300$f4c68900$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Vastly better quality of life? Hah. I cannot imagine living in space in some rotating asteroid or totally manmade thing. I am quite sure I would not like it at all. I want to look out the window and see a real sky and dirt and trees and flowers and animals. I don't want a high res image of the sky - I want real sky. I simply cannot imagine some tech being lost unless it is to a more advanced tech. I can imagine a future person having the ability to make his own chips or just anything he needs just by pushing buttons. What that would do to the economy I don't have the imagination to predict. I imagine that in a 1000 years the individual will have tech at home that will make what we have now look like cap pistols compared to nuclear bombs. That individual will make his own food, medicines and everything else he needs or even wants. Including people and pets. Built to specifications of his own. Now we are talking about some real freedom. bill w On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 2:25 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 12:15 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> adrian wrote: >> The current trend would eventually see human population begin to shrink, >> which I fear would have negative consequences for humanity. >> >> Yeah? Just what? >> > > At a simple extreme, extinction. > > Short of that, a lot of modern technology is only feasible because it has > a large number of users. Chip fabs to support billions are easier to make > and scale up than chip fabs that only support millions, let alone > thousands. Without feasibility, the technology ceases to exist. Imagine > if the effort to make computer chips was ruinously expensive per chip - and > thus, no more computers were made - if human population had decreased to > the point that there weren't enough users to make chips cheap. > > Now imagine that for food production, sanitation, medicine, and other > basics of life. The impacts would not be as soon or as extreme, but they > would be there. > > I see a boon for the slowing and reversing of the loss of habitat for >> those animals who share the planet with us. Do we want animals to exist >> only in zoos? And the regrowth of forests and the Amazon Basin, etc. >> > > Note I said "for humanity". Humanity could (in theory) skip right off > Earth into orbiting colonies that could provide vastly better quality of > life than exists today, and those benefits to Earth's environment would > still happen. > > >> Not going to make it easy on supporting retired folks, I reckon. bill w >> > > That is already being seen, with a mere slowdown in growth. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Aug 26 22:22:40 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 15:22:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] OP-ED: The billionaire space race reflects a colonial mindset that fails to imagine a different world In-Reply-To: References: <00ca01d79a89$51978300$f4c68900$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 2:16 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Vastly better quality of life? Hah. I cannot imagine living in space in > some rotating asteroid or totally manmade thing. I am quite sure I would > not like it at all. I want to look out the window and see a real sky and > dirt and trees and flowers and animals. I don't want a high res image of > the sky - I want real sky. > I can imagine it. Let me paint you a vision from one of my upcoming works. (Coming out...maybe November, more likely early next year.) There exists an alien race (the K'kree, from Traveller) who are substantially more claustrophobic than humans. There are tales (in universe), possibly exaggerated, of some having panic attacks so severe that they tore their way out of spaceships just to be "outside" with no consideration of first donning spacesuits (in fact, viewing them as a form of further confinement), which had predictably fatal consequences. And yet, they wished to conquer the stars. (The setting includes a FTL drive.) Some of them got around this by constructing giant arks - mobile O'Neill cylinders (the setting includes a drive that can handle gravity and inertia; a comparable habitat for RL humans wouldn't need to move). These arks are 2 kilometers in length and diameter, with concentric decks each 50 m radius (100 m diameter). The outermost deck is spun to 1 G; each deck inward reduces gravity by 0.05 G, down to a minimum 0.25 G; the space below the 250 m radius is hollow, to afford a 0 G space for industrial efforts and docking. (Independently rotatable docking rings line the central corridor; when a ship wishes to dock, it settles onto one of these rings, which secures the ship then spins up to match the ark's rotation, finally synchronizing position with transit tubes to let crew, passengers, and cargo transfer between ship and ark.) On each of the outermost decks (used for habitation; the outer skin is shielded enough that even the outermost deck has about the same radiation exposure as one would get on the surface of a typical planet), habitable structures rarely rise beyond 10 meters tall, very rarely beyond 20, and never beyond 30 unless they mean to link to the deck above. There is about 10 meters of interdeck plating, leaving 40 meters of occupied space. The decks above tend to be covered by cloud-like mist at all times; if and where they are not (which may be "never"), they are covered by plants. The horizon may curve up instead of down, but it is a true horizon: one can only see so far along the curve of the world, and if one travels to that point, one can see further in the direction traveled but not so far in the other direction (what used to be in sight, now being beyond the horizon back that way). The horizon may be only along one axis, but on the other horizontal axis (if you are not right next to one of the walls), the ark is long enough that the far distance fades into the blue of air - like how trees on a planetary horizon, when you can see that far, appear more sky colored than green. Unless specifically excavated for a building, the "ground" is covered by thick dirt, with trees and flowers and grass. Some arks even have areas with wildlife, monitored so they do not damage ship systems or residents. A majority of the internal volume is "wasted" being open air with little function beyond aesthetics, but it is these aesthetics that enable the aliens to permanently live in space. If repurposed for humans, a few million humans could live on one, with ample industrial space with which to maintain it (given sufficient raw materials input, such as from asteroid mining). That's a better living situation than some spacefaring volume-optimized apartment brick, no? It does require costs to come down so planners of space structures don't have to be hyperfixated on minimizing mass; getting resources from space and building in space should help with this. I simply cannot imagine some tech being lost unless it is to a more > advanced tech. > It's not that the tech is lost, per se, just that it becomes uneconomical to make in changing circumstances - and thus becomes effectively lost. I can imagine a future person having the ability to make his own chips or > just anything he needs just by pushing buttons. > Getting there requires the kind of effort that you need to distribute the cost of over lots of people - billions, maybe more - who would use, benefit from, and fund, or it just doesn't happen. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Aug 26 22:27:10 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 15:27:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 215, Issue 40 In-Reply-To: <60f6220a-8bc3-3e87-67a9-65f889cacf20@zaiboc.net> References: <60f6220a-8bc3-3e87-67a9-65f889cacf20@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 1:40 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Life-extension. That's how to solve population growth problems. Sounds > counter-intuitive ("won't that make things worse?"), but do the maths. Not > only will it reduce population growth, but it will encourage people to > behave more responsibly, and I have to say, even though I hate the term, > 'sustainably'. > I'm not sure it would reduce population growth, but the rest of that sounds correct - so it would at least reduce the problems related to population growth. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 26 22:35:52 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 17:35:52 -0500 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 215, Issue 40 In-Reply-To: References: <60f6220a-8bc3-3e87-67a9-65f889cacf20@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Not only will it reduce population growth, but it will encourage people to behave more responsibly, and I have to say, even though I hate the term, 'sustainably'.Well, what I want to know is how to get people to act more responsibly. Right now we have vast numbers of people who have no plan or inadequate plans on how to support themselves in retirement, and many (most?) will require welfare. Right now average credit card debt is several thousand dollars - around 7000. How to get them to act more responsibly? bill w On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 5:30 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 1:40 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Life-extension. That's how to solve population growth problems. Sounds >> counter-intuitive ("won't that make things worse?"), but do the maths. Not >> only will it reduce population growth, but it will encourage people to >> behave more responsibly, and I have to say, even though I hate the term, >> 'sustainably'. >> > > I'm not sure it would reduce population growth, but the rest of that > sounds correct - so it would at least reduce the problems related to > population growth. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 26 22:53:24 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 15:53:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 215, Issue 40 In-Reply-To: References: <60f6220a-8bc3-3e87-67a9-65f889cacf20@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <002701d79acd$2ddf96c0$899ec440$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >?Right now average credit card debt is several thousand dollars - around 7000. How to get them to act more responsibly? bill w Step 1: balance the US federal budget. Step 2: make a constitutional amendment that requires a balanced federal budget. Reasoning: the recently-proposed government spending alone, just the stuff currently being voted on, is well above 7k per US citizen. The existing debt is much higher than that. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Thu Aug 26 22:57:49 2021 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 18:57:49 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Alien 'Dyson spheres' could be harvesting the power of black holes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Very, very interesting. I?m not well versed enough with the science to make any conjecture, however the Science Fantasy part of my brain is going wild. SR Ballard > On Aug 26, 2021, at 9:53 AM, John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > "Aliens could place a large satellite in a stable orbit around a black hole and then collect X-ray energy using something akin to solar panels, study coauthor Tomotsugu Goto, also of National Tsing Hua University, told Live Science. > > They might also build a ring-like structure around the black hole or totally surround it with platforms, much like in Freeman Dyson's original proposal, Goto added, though each of these would be increasingly complex and challenging to construct. > > In either case, a black hole could radiate up to 100,000 times more energy than a star like the sun, meaning that a celestial species would have a lot of power to work with, the researchers wrote in a paper published July 1 in the journal Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society. > > After being absorbed and used, the energy from a cosmic object would have to be reradiated or else it would build up and eventually melt the Dyson sphere, as Dyson noted in his 1960 paper. This energy would be shifted to longer wavelengths, so a Dyson sphere around a black hole might give off an unexplainable energy signature in the ultraviolet or infrared, the researchers said. > > Several instruments, including NASA's space-based Wide-field Infrared Survey Explorer (WISE) and the Pan-STARRS telescope in Hawaii, have cataloged billions of objects during their detailed surveys of the night sky, Goto said. Should Dyson spheres around black holes actually exist, it's possible that their telltale signs have already been recorded by such detectors, he added." > > https://www.livescience.com/alien-dyson-spheres-suck-black-hole-energy.html > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Thu Aug 26 23:25:52 2021 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 19:25:52 -0400 Subject: [ExI] infinity In-Reply-To: <004601d79aa1$74ae9690$5e0bc3b0$@rainier66.com> References: <002701d79a03$779c9990$66d5ccb0$@rainier66.com> <000201d79a33$a5ab3730$f101a590$@rainier66.com> <00bd01d79a85$e7017800$b5046800$@rainier66.com> <004601d79aa1$74ae9690$5e0bc3b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, 1:42 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Pong. Only. Game console only played pong. I predate personal computers. > Have you been living under a rock since they were invented? Even an old Roku had Angry Birds space... which at advanced levels involved using orbital mechanics to smash the pigs. :) > Ja and even then, the analogy is kinda misleading in some ways. Once we > visualize 4D spacetime as our existing on the 3D surface volume of 4D > hypersphere, the obvious question is: OK then, where does the time > dimension go? > The time dimension doesn't "go" anywhere. It overstrains the analogy. Strained analogies aren't any fun. If it isn't fun then it isn't play. :) > We think we can see the past, and some claim to see the future, but really > we don?t. We can?t see the time axis any more than the Flatlanders could > see above and below. They could only imagine it. > I assumed you were going to some nonlocal computability of consciousness or that human awareness of "time" is a collective hallucination. > >?Do they have to be Greek letters though? > > Only if you want to look like a hipster mathematician. Otherwise they > see those ABC letters and know you are an engineer and give you that > pitying look as if to say: Primitive savage! You design three dimensional > objects? Sorry these matters are simply beyond your understanding. Come > back when or if you master multivariable calculus? > Nah, I'm a computer nerd. Standing on the shoulders of giants, we now have computers to do multivariable calculus. I imagine we'll have computers doing math that hasn't even been invented yet. Not sure if quantum computing is modelling physical systems or if physical systems are manifesting computations. > That sorta thing. Pisses ya off. Because in this case they are right. > They remind you of Sheldon from Big Bang. > Never could take that show > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 26 23:41:51 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 18:41:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 215, Issue 40 In-Reply-To: <002701d79acd$2ddf96c0$899ec440$@rainier66.com> References: <60f6220a-8bc3-3e87-67a9-65f889cacf20@zaiboc.net> <002701d79acd$2ddf96c0$899ec440$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I don't get the link between the gov's changing and people changing. The gov is not exactly most people's role model or ideal. All around the world people think we are decadent. Greedy. Rigid. Low morals. Arrogant. They do like our movies and such. We think we are the good guys because we can buy all this stuff. "Whoever dies with the most stuff wins." Maybe I should write a country song about it. I know all about 'stuff', being poor most of my life. Saving up for cameras and stereo gear, not willing to put up with just average equipment. You could help supply some lyrics, I reckon. bill w On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 5:55 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > > > > *>?*Right now average credit card debt is several thousand dollars - > around 7000. How to get them to act more responsibly? bill w > > > > > > Step 1: balance the US federal budget. > > > > Step 2: make a constitutional amendment that requires a balanced federal > budget. > > > > Reasoning: the recently-proposed government spending alone, just the stuff > currently being voted on, is well above 7k per US citizen. The existing > debt is much higher than that. > > > > spike > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 26 23:47:51 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 16:47:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] infinity In-Reply-To: References: <002701d79a03$779c9990$66d5ccb0$@rainier66.com> <000201d79a33$a5ab3730$f101a590$@rainier66.com> <00bd01d79a85$e7017800$b5046800$@rainier66.com> <004601d79aa1$74ae9690$5e0bc3b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005701d79ad4$c9a35db0$5cea1910$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 4:26 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: Mike Dougherty Subject: Re: [ExI] infinity On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, 1:42 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: Pong. Only. Game console only played pong. I predate personal computers. >?Have you been living under a rock since they were invented? Even an old Roku had Angry Birds space... Eh, computer gaming probably woulda been a bigger part of my life had it come along about 10 years sooner. Turns out my favorite game on the computer has been playing chess against other humans online. >>? That sorta thing. Pisses ya off. Because in this case they are right. They remind you of Sheldon from Big Bang. >?Never could take that show? I only saw a few of them, on planes going back and forth across the country. As Hollywood goes, it does a better than average take on a socially maladjusted math genius. We hafta face the fact that social maladjustment is very common among the very advanced in science and math. The reason for this has not been fully explained, but perhaps Billw has some plausible theories. My favorite is that some known causes of social maladjustment such as Aspergers is often associated with greater focus. Or it could be that people with greater focus tend to become socially maladjusted because they go into a deep think while the others party and dance. Then of course one like that tends to attract others like that, because we understand. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Aug 26 23:50:48 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 16:50:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 215, Issue 40 In-Reply-To: <002701d79acd$2ddf96c0$899ec440$@rainier66.com> References: <60f6220a-8bc3-3e87-67a9-65f889cacf20@zaiboc.net> <002701d79acd$2ddf96c0$899ec440$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 3:55 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > > > > *>?*Right now average credit card debt is several thousand dollars - > around 7000. How to get them to act more responsibly? bill w > > > > > > Step 1: balance the US federal budget. > > > > Step 2: make a constitutional amendment that requires a balanced federal > budget. > > > > Reasoning: the recently-proposed government spending alone, just the stuff > currently being voted on, is well above 7k per US citizen. The existing > debt is much higher than that. > Include in that amendment: if Congress fails to pass a budget on time - failing in its duty, as has been happening routinely of late - the President has one month to put out a balanced budget. If the President does (and if it meets requirements, including being balanced), that's the budget for the next fiscal year. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 26 23:53:57 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 16:53:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 215, Issue 40 In-Reply-To: References: <60f6220a-8bc3-3e87-67a9-65f889cacf20@zaiboc.net> <002701d79acd$2ddf96c0$899ec440$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005e01d79ad5$a3040460$e90c0d20$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 215, Issue 40 >?I don't get the link between the gov's changing and people changing. The gov is not exactly most people's role model or ideal? bill w If the government is plunging us into debt at that rate, there is no point in working ourselves out of personal debt. The fed will eventually need to inflate its way out of its debt, which means personal debt will also be inflated away. When that happens, oh evolution have mercy on those who live on fixed pensions. A constitutional amendment to balance the budget would be a gift. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 00:34:53 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 19:34:53 -0500 Subject: [ExI] OP-ED: The billionaire space race reflects a colonial mindset that fails to imagine a different world In-Reply-To: References: <00ca01d79a89$51978300$f4c68900$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Look down at what you wrote: lots and lots of words about specifications of this and that and tiny bits about plants, vistas, trees and dirt. Hardly any color. So people can tell that you are a tech person and not a poet. Or in other words, the way you wrote would be just about the opposite of what you would want to present to prospects for living there. You want words like 'lush'. What percentage of the ecology of the earth could be represented? Two of everything including microbes? Two kilometers is rather small. The place needs different environments, such as prairie and jungle. Different seasons. It could be very attractive to me if I had to leave Earth. But it's kind of like Disney World: you know everything is fake in a way. I would still want to visit planets if I was on a habitat. You have to realize that I am difficult to please. Look at what most people are happy with: an 8 x 10 deck to plant a few ferns. I have 100 roses. Maybe I am just a bit claustrophobic. bill w On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 5:24 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 2:16 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Vastly better quality of life? Hah. I cannot imagine living in space in >> some rotating asteroid or totally manmade thing. I am quite sure I would >> not like it at all. I want to look out the window and see a real sky and >> dirt and trees and flowers and animals. I don't want a high res image of >> the sky - I want real sky. >> > > I can imagine it. Let me paint you a vision from one of my upcoming > works. (Coming out...maybe November, more likely early next year.) > > There exists an alien race (the K'kree, from Traveller) who are > substantially more claustrophobic than humans. There are tales (in > universe), possibly exaggerated, of some having panic attacks so severe > that they tore their way out of spaceships just to be "outside" with no > consideration of first donning spacesuits (in fact, viewing them as a form > of further confinement), which had predictably fatal consequences. And > yet, they wished to conquer the stars. (The setting includes a FTL drive.) > > Some of them got around this by constructing giant arks - mobile O'Neill > cylinders (the setting includes a drive that can handle gravity and > inertia; a comparable habitat for RL humans wouldn't need to move). These > arks are 2 kilometers in length and diameter, with concentric decks each 50 > m radius (100 m diameter). The outermost deck is spun to 1 G; each deck > inward reduces gravity by 0.05 G, down to a minimum 0.25 G; the space below > the 250 m radius is hollow, to afford a 0 G space for industrial efforts > and docking. (Independently rotatable docking rings line the central > corridor; when a ship wishes to dock, it settles onto one of these rings, > which secures the ship then spins up to match the ark's rotation, finally > synchronizing position with transit tubes to let crew, passengers, and > cargo transfer between ship and ark.) > > On each of the outermost decks (used for habitation; the outer skin is > shielded enough that even the outermost deck has about the same radiation > exposure as one would get on the surface of a typical planet), habitable > structures rarely rise beyond 10 meters tall, very rarely beyond 20, and > never beyond 30 unless they mean to link to the deck above. There is about > 10 meters of interdeck plating, leaving 40 meters of occupied space. The > decks above tend to be covered by cloud-like mist at all times; if and > where they are not (which may be "never"), they are covered by plants. > > The horizon may curve up instead of down, but it is a true horizon: one > can only see so far along the curve of the world, and if one travels to > that point, one can see further in the direction traveled but not so far in > the other direction (what used to be in sight, now being beyond the horizon > back that way). The horizon may be only along one axis, but on the other > horizontal axis (if you are not right next to one of the walls), the ark is > long enough that the far distance fades into the blue of air - like how > trees on a planetary horizon, when you can see that far, appear more sky > colored than green. > > Unless specifically excavated for a building, the "ground" is covered by > thick dirt, with trees and flowers and grass. Some arks even have areas > with wildlife, monitored so they do not damage ship systems or residents. > > A majority of the internal volume is "wasted" being open air with little > function beyond aesthetics, but it is these aesthetics that enable the > aliens to permanently live in space. If repurposed for humans, a few > million humans could live on one, with ample industrial space with which to > maintain it (given sufficient raw materials input, such as from asteroid > mining). > > That's a better living situation than some spacefaring volume-optimized > apartment brick, no? It does require costs to come down so planners of > space structures don't have to be hyperfixated on minimizing mass; getting > resources from space and building in space should help with this. > > I simply cannot imagine some tech being lost unless it is to a more >> advanced tech. >> > > It's not that the tech is lost, per se, just that it becomes uneconomical > to make in changing circumstances - and thus becomes effectively lost. > > I can imagine a future person having the ability to make his own chips or >> just anything he needs just by pushing buttons. >> > > Getting there requires the kind of effort that you need to distribute the > cost of over lots of people - billions, maybe more - who would use, > benefit from, and fund, or it just doesn't happen. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 00:46:38 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 19:46:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] infinity In-Reply-To: <005701d79ad4$c9a35db0$5cea1910$@rainier66.com> References: <002701d79a03$779c9990$66d5ccb0$@rainier66.com> <000201d79a33$a5ab3730$f101a590$@rainier66.com> <00bd01d79a85$e7017800$b5046800$@rainier66.com> <004601d79aa1$74ae9690$5e0bc3b0$@rainier66.com> <005701d79ad4$c9a35db0$5cea1910$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: OK, social adjustment and math - but I am not going to do a review of the literature. I have a question for everyone with two minutes to spare: do you have any reason to believe that your memory is exceptional? Or surprisingly average? (like my own)?? bill w bill w On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 6:49 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Thursday, August 26, 2021 4:26 PM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* Mike Dougherty > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] infinity > > > > On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, 1:42 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Pong. Only. Game console only played pong. I predate personal computers. > > >?Have you been living under a rock since they were invented? Even an > old Roku had Angry Birds space... > > > > Eh, computer gaming probably woulda been a bigger part of my life had it > come along about 10 years sooner. Turns out my favorite game on the > computer has been playing chess against other humans online. > > > > > > >>? That sorta thing. Pisses ya off. Because in this case they are > right. They remind you of Sheldon from Big Bang. > > > > > > >?Never could take that show? > > > > I only saw a few of them, on planes going back and forth across the > country. As Hollywood goes, it does a better than average take on a > socially maladjusted math genius. We hafta face the fact that social > maladjustment is very common among the very advanced in science and math. > The reason for this has not been fully explained, but perhaps Billw has > some plausible theories. My favorite is that some known causes of social > maladjustment such as Aspergers is often associated with greater focus. Or > it could be that people with greater focus tend to become socially > maladjusted because they go into a deep think while the others party and > dance. Then of course one like that tends to attract others like that, > because we understand. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 02:35:13 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 19:35:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] OP-ED: The billionaire space race reflects a colonial mindset that fails to imagine a different world In-Reply-To: References: <00ca01d79a89$51978300$f4c68900$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Given the audience, I thought a tech description was more desired. If you want poetic... Obviously one 2x2 km cylinder would not represent the entire ecology of the much vaster Earth - but nor would just one accommodate more than a tiny fraction of humanity. If you want variety, you want a fleet. Each cylinder would be set up for a different habitat, plus some accommodation for the humans who choose to live there. This one a lush forest, that one a warm desert, this other one more arctic. A few would of course be built-up: urban is a biome too, and some people greatly prefer it. Some might be set aside as wilderness preserves, especially for the less popular (less human friendly) biomes. But don't forget, the main purpose would be to house humans, so there wouldn't be that many preserves. It wouldn't be fake dirt or fake plants. It would all be real - managed to some degree, but real. There's no slipperiness of plastic, no whiff of chemicals, none of that. Holes could be cut in decks for the largest of trees to grow and be observed through. (Once they grow that large, of course: for the first several years it'd all be saplings.) Sniff the flowers: your nose doesn't detect anything fake because there is nothing fake. A rose grown in any other place would smell as sweet. What's removed is the "nature, red in tooth and claw" aspect. No hurricanes, no earthquakes, no volcanoes, no natural disasters. Rain every so often - maybe on a slightly random schedule, but scheduled so people know when to get out of the rain - because that's the easiest way to wash the sky, but no floods or droughts. Maybe you are fortunate enough to live somewhere where these things do not every so often threaten life and wreck property, but there are a lot of people for whom this alone would be luxury worth calling Heaven. Sure, it might get boring living in just one biome all the time. These colonies, for humans, would be close together, linked by mass transit - so if you want to visit another biome, it's a short trip away, and moving to another biome wouldn't be hard. You could even walk to the next biome, if you're in good health. Can't see the night sky? Well...I just mentioned links between cylinders, right? Walk out among them - they're radiation shielded too, just transparent to visible light - and gaze out on a more brilliant sky of stars than could ever be seen at the bottom of our atmosphere. Or call up a display from one of the many cameras, like peering through a telescope but more convenient. Also you don't have to wait for night: the sky always there, waiting to be seen. The "farmland" - hydroponics - would also be close at hand. Fresh fruit, vegetables, and all manner of animal products (your tongue doesn't care that it's cloned meat so long as it has the right taste and texture) at lower prices (since there's much less distance to transport food). With every cylinder producing food, hunger becomes much less of an issue: disruptions in one cylinder don't endanger the other cylinders. And nor would it be just food. You want 100 roses? Sign up to help tend the wilds and you could have a rose garden as part of it. Flowering plants might use drones instead of bees (less out of concern for bees going wild, and more because bees might go extinct by the time this colony got going), but they would still get pollinated. (If there were no bees to be found - well, at least there would be maple syrup.) On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 5:36 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Look down at what you wrote: lots and lots of words about > specifications of this and that and tiny bits about plants, vistas, trees > and dirt. Hardly any color. So people can tell that you are a tech person > and not a poet. Or in other words, the way you wrote would be just about > the opposite of what you would want to present to prospects for living > there. You want words like 'lush'. What percentage of the ecology of the > earth could be represented? Two of everything including microbes? Two > kilometers is rather small. The place needs different environments, such > as prairie and jungle. Different seasons. > > It could be very attractive to me if I had to leave Earth. But it's kind > of like Disney World: you know everything is fake in a way. I would still > want to visit planets if I was on a habitat. You have to realize that I am > difficult to please. Look at what most people are happy with: an 8 x 10 > deck to plant a few ferns. I have 100 roses. Maybe I am just a bit > claustrophobic. bill w > > On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 5:24 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 2:16 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Vastly better quality of life? Hah. I cannot imagine living in space >>> in some rotating asteroid or totally manmade thing. I am quite sure I >>> would not like it at all. I want to look out the window and see a real sky >>> and dirt and trees and flowers and animals. I don't want a high res image >>> of the sky - I want real sky. >>> >> >> I can imagine it. Let me paint you a vision from one of my upcoming >> works. (Coming out...maybe November, more likely early next year.) >> >> There exists an alien race (the K'kree, from Traveller) who are >> substantially more claustrophobic than humans. There are tales (in >> universe), possibly exaggerated, of some having panic attacks so severe >> that they tore their way out of spaceships just to be "outside" with no >> consideration of first donning spacesuits (in fact, viewing them as a form >> of further confinement), which had predictably fatal consequences. And >> yet, they wished to conquer the stars. (The setting includes a FTL drive.) >> >> Some of them got around this by constructing giant arks - mobile O'Neill >> cylinders (the setting includes a drive that can handle gravity and >> inertia; a comparable habitat for RL humans wouldn't need to move). These >> arks are 2 kilometers in length and diameter, with concentric decks each 50 >> m radius (100 m diameter). The outermost deck is spun to 1 G; each deck >> inward reduces gravity by 0.05 G, down to a minimum 0.25 G; the space below >> the 250 m radius is hollow, to afford a 0 G space for industrial efforts >> and docking. (Independently rotatable docking rings line the central >> corridor; when a ship wishes to dock, it settles onto one of these rings, >> which secures the ship then spins up to match the ark's rotation, finally >> synchronizing position with transit tubes to let crew, passengers, and >> cargo transfer between ship and ark.) >> >> On each of the outermost decks (used for habitation; the outer skin is >> shielded enough that even the outermost deck has about the same radiation >> exposure as one would get on the surface of a typical planet), habitable >> structures rarely rise beyond 10 meters tall, very rarely beyond 20, and >> never beyond 30 unless they mean to link to the deck above. There is about >> 10 meters of interdeck plating, leaving 40 meters of occupied space. The >> decks above tend to be covered by cloud-like mist at all times; if and >> where they are not (which may be "never"), they are covered by plants. >> >> The horizon may curve up instead of down, but it is a true horizon: one >> can only see so far along the curve of the world, and if one travels to >> that point, one can see further in the direction traveled but not so far in >> the other direction (what used to be in sight, now being beyond the horizon >> back that way). The horizon may be only along one axis, but on the other >> horizontal axis (if you are not right next to one of the walls), the ark is >> long enough that the far distance fades into the blue of air - like how >> trees on a planetary horizon, when you can see that far, appear more sky >> colored than green. >> >> Unless specifically excavated for a building, the "ground" is covered by >> thick dirt, with trees and flowers and grass. Some arks even have areas >> with wildlife, monitored so they do not damage ship systems or residents. >> >> A majority of the internal volume is "wasted" being open air with little >> function beyond aesthetics, but it is these aesthetics that enable the >> aliens to permanently live in space. If repurposed for humans, a few >> million humans could live on one, with ample industrial space with which to >> maintain it (given sufficient raw materials input, such as from asteroid >> mining). >> >> That's a better living situation than some spacefaring volume-optimized >> apartment brick, no? It does require costs to come down so planners of >> space structures don't have to be hyperfixated on minimizing mass; getting >> resources from space and building in space should help with this. >> >> I simply cannot imagine some tech being lost unless it is to a more >>> advanced tech. >>> >> >> It's not that the tech is lost, per se, just that it becomes uneconomical >> to make in changing circumstances - and thus becomes effectively lost. >> >> I can imagine a future person having the ability to make his own chips or >>> just anything he needs just by pushing buttons. >>> >> >> Getting there requires the kind of effort that you need to distribute the >> cost of over lots of people - billions, maybe more - who would use, >> benefit from, and fund, or it just doesn't happen. >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tara at taramayastales.com Fri Aug 27 05:00:11 2021 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 22:00:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] OP-ED: The billionaire space race reflects a colonial mindset that fails to imagine a different world In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: These Marxists who complain about the lack of "imagination" of those who want to expand into space are actually the least imaginative people in the world. Their vision of a "new world" or political system is just the same old feudalism dressed up in deceptive, seductive terminology. Their inability to grasp the real breakthroughs of space travel not just for human society but for life on earth betrays their blithering stupidity. > On Aug 26, 2021, at 9:38 PM, John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote: > > A history professor weighs in on the current approach to industrializing and colonizing our solar system... He sees similarities with 17th century European expansionism... > > "A failure of the imagination" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 06:18:30 2021 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 08:18:30 +0200 Subject: [ExI] I have resigned from the IEET Board of Directors Message-ID: I have resigned from the IEET Board of Directors https://giulioprisco.com/i-have-resigned-from-the-ieet-board-of-directors-793d10a10a8a I have resigned from the Board of Directors of the Institute for Ethics and Emerging Technologies (IEET). I have resigned in protest against a recent decision, which hasn?t been publicly announced yet. Like much of today?s liberal left, the IEET has embraced certain currently fashionable but dangerously toxic trends. Identity politics, #MeToo, cancel culture? These trends start with good sentiments, but become toxic and dangerous when pushed to unreasonable and often ridiculous extremes. The excesses of some extremists, which are tolerated if not encouraged by the mainstream left, are pushing more and more moderates (both moderate conservatives and moderate liberals) toward the extreme right. The likely results of this can only harm women and disadvantaged minorities in the long run. But some people are more interested in pointless virtue signaling than in actual outcomes. I?m sure many of the reasonable liberals who choose to tolerate this without speaking up have the heart in the right place. But not the brain. I don?t talk much about these things, and I try to ignore related discussions on social media. Not only because I have better things to do, but also because I don?t want to contribute to mass hysteria. Read my last book ?Futurist spaceflight meditations? if you are curious about my take on current politics and culture wars. While in this post I have condemned some toxic aspects of the liberal left, I?m perfectly aware that the conservative right has its own toxic aspects, which too many reasonable conservatives choose to tolerate. From ben at zaiboc.net Fri Aug 27 08:50:27 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 09:50:27 +0100 Subject: [ExI] OP-ED: The billionaire space race reflects a colonial mindset that fails to imagine a different world In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7426294c-55b2-465c-c02e-bcdf3d0f3e64@zaiboc.net> On 26/08/2021 22:15, bill w wrote: > I imagine that in a 1000 years the individual will have tech at home > that will make what we have now look like cap pistols compared to > nuclear bombs.? That individual will make his own food, medicines and > everything else he needs or even wants.? Including people and pets.? > Built to specifications of his own.? ?Now we are talking about some > real freedom. So you have 1000 yrs to get rid of capitalism, greed, and lust for power over other people. Good luck! Ben From ben at zaiboc.net Fri Aug 27 09:17:01 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 10:17:01 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Population growth & Life-Extension In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 27/08/2021 01:35, bill w wrote: > Well, what I want to know is how to get people to act more > responsibly. Right now we have vast numbers of people who have no plan > or inadequate plans on how to support themselves in retirement, and > many (most?) will require welfare. Right now average credit card debt > is several thousand dollars - around 7000.? How to get them to act > more responsibly?? bill w This is what I'm saying. Life-extension will inevitably get people to act more responsibly. If you know you'll die within the next few decades, there's little incentive, from a purely selfish POV, to pay your debts, save for the future, preserve the environment, etc. If you know you'll still be around to reap the fruits of your current behaviour, perhaps indefinitely, there's a lot more incentive, don't you think? Ben From ben at zaiboc.net Fri Aug 27 09:23:40 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 10:23:40 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Population growth & Life-Extension In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <07e9df60-b8b5-b70f-1999-2b24979d5dbc@zaiboc.net> On 27/08/2021 01:35, Adrian Tymes wrote: > On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 1:40 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > > wrote: > > Life-extension. That's how to solve population growth problems. > Sounds counter-intuitive ("won't that make things worse?"), but do > the maths. Not only will it reduce population growth, but it will > encourage people to behave more responsibly, and I have to say, > even though I hate the term, 'sustainably'. > > > I'm not sure it would reduce population growth, but the rest of that > sounds correct - so it would at least reduce the problems related to > population growth. Graph showing effect of life-extension on population growth: This assumes that extreme longevity will reduce the desire to have children, which seems a reasonable assumption, given the usual real reason for having kids (to look after you in your dotage). Note the extreme difference between having an average of 2.5 kids and 2. Note also that 2 kids per couple is no longer 'replacement rate', as there is no death. Of course there still would be, but from accidents etc., not from ageing. I'm afraid I can't show you the actual calculatons behind this graph, I seem to have lost them, and am not competent enough to recreate them myself, but I'm sure many people reading this are. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Population graph small.png Type: image/png Size: 46178 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Fri Aug 27 09:46:24 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 10:46:24 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Arrogance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9e737984-1468-e4eb-fc5b-4b3c10a0ea52@zaiboc.net> On 27/08/2021 01:35, bill w wrote: > All around the world people think we are decadent.? Greedy.? Rigid. > Low morals. Arrogant. Do you think they are wrong? I don't. Apart from the morals bit. And it's not just America. This can probably be levelled at 'the west' in general, although America is top of the list. Morality is relative, of course. To me, the pope is morally repugnant. To many, he is the epitome of moral excellence. Ben From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 27 12:53:39 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 05:53:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] OP-ED: The billionaire space race reflects a colonial mindset that fails to imagine a different world In-Reply-To: <7426294c-55b2-465c-c02e-bcdf3d0f3e64@zaiboc.net> References: <7426294c-55b2-465c-c02e-bcdf3d0f3e64@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <003801d79b42$8f69a050$ae3ce0f0$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat ... So you have 1000 yrs to get rid of capitalism, greed, and lust for power over other people. Good luck! Ben _______________________________________________ Of those four, only lust for power hasta go. We can have the rest. We go nowhere without capitalism. We muddle along at our current level of technology until Malthusian population dynamics does what it does without technology. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 13:17:49 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 08:17:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] OP-ED: The billionaire space race reflects a colonial mindset that fails to imagine a different world In-Reply-To: <003801d79b42$8f69a050$ae3ce0f0$@rainier66.com> References: <7426294c-55b2-465c-c02e-bcdf3d0f3e64@zaiboc.net> <003801d79b42$8f69a050$ae3ce0f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Only one cup of coffee so far today, so I need some explaining of why those things need to go to achieve my little fantasy. bill w On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 7:56 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ...> On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > > ... > > > So you have 1000 yrs to get rid of capitalism, greed, and lust for power > over other people. Good luck! > > Ben > > _______________________________________________ > > > Of those four, only lust for power hasta go. We can have the rest. We go > nowhere without capitalism. We muddle along at our current level of > technology until Malthusian population dynamics does what it does without > technology. > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 13:37:14 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 08:37:14 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Arrogance In-Reply-To: <9e737984-1468-e4eb-fc5b-4b3c10a0ea52@zaiboc.net> References: <9e737984-1468-e4eb-fc5b-4b3c10a0ea52@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Like you, I don't agree about the low morals part. I just think that we are pretty much like everyone else but have a gloriously free country to buy what we want (and the credit ratings to do it). Ex. I don't view porn as wrong in any way - certainly not 'dirty' (violent or child porn strongly excepted). Certainly our tendency to send armies here and there is a moral failing - we just can't seem to mind our own business. However, some arrogance is earned, isn't it? No, I don't like arrogance at all, but a pride in the accomplishments of the USA is deserved. Decadent? Maybe this is discussable. bill w On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 4:48 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 27/08/2021 01:35, bill w wrote: > > All around the world people think we are decadent. Greedy. Rigid. > > Low morals. Arrogant. > > > Do you think they are wrong? I don't. Apart from the morals bit. And > it's not just America. This can probably be levelled at 'the west' in > general, although America is top of the list. > > Morality is relative, of course. To me, the pope is morally repugnant. > To many, he is the epitome of moral excellence. > > Ben > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 13:44:35 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 08:44:35 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Population growth & Life-Extension In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you know you'll still be around to reap the fruits of your current behaviour, perhaps indefinitely, there's a lot more incentive, don't you think? Ben I think that all of us are too smart, sometimes, to understand the thinking, or lack of it, by people who are two or three standard deviations below us in intelligence. Given a very long life the average person can say "Wow, I have nearly an infinite amount of time to pay off my debts, so let's max out the cards." People are lazy - well, maybe they are just efficient: always thinking of the easy way to do something. or get out of it altogether! bill On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 4:19 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 27/08/2021 01:35, bill w wrote: > > Well, what I want to know is how to get people to act more > > responsibly. Right now we have vast numbers of people who have no plan > > or inadequate plans on how to support themselves in retirement, and > > many (most?) will require welfare. Right now average credit card debt > > is several thousand dollars - around 7000. How to get them to act > > more responsibly? bill w > > > This is what I'm saying. Life-extension will inevitably get people to > act more responsibly. If you know you'll die within the next few > decades, there's little incentive, from a purely selfish POV, to pay > your debts, save for the future, preserve the environment, etc. If you > know you'll still be around to reap the fruits of your current > behaviour, perhaps indefinitely, there's a lot more incentive, don't you > think? > > Ben > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 13:51:11 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 08:51:11 -0500 Subject: [ExI] OP-ED: The billionaire space race reflects a colonial mindset that fails to imagine a different world In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Adrian, what you describe seems really great and would delight most of us. I am currently reading 'Dark Lightning' by John Varley and all are in an asteroid six miles long heading for a distant star. It has everything. You might pick up some ideas from that book. bill w On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 12:03 AM Tara Maya via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > These Marxists who complain about the lack of "imagination" of those who > want to expand into space are actually the least imaginative people in the > world. Their vision of a "new world" or political system is just the same > old feudalism dressed up in deceptive, seductive terminology. Their > inability to grasp the real breakthroughs of space travel not just for > human society but for life on earth betrays their blithering stupidity. > > On Aug 26, 2021, at 9:38 PM, John Grigg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > A history professor weighs in on the current approach to industrializing > and colonizing our solar system... He sees similarities with 17th century > European expansionism..."A failure of the imagination" > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 14:03:45 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 09:03:45 -0500 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 215, Issue 40 In-Reply-To: <005e01d79ad5$a3040460$e90c0d20$@rainier66.com> References: <60f6220a-8bc3-3e87-67a9-65f889cacf20@zaiboc.net> <002701d79acd$2ddf96c0$899ec440$@rainier66.com> <005e01d79ad5$a3040460$e90c0d20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: When that happens, oh evolution have mercy on those who live on fixed pensions. A constitutional amendment to balance the budget would be a gift. spike Your favorite pie in the sky fantasy. Now Spike, just what percentage of the population do you think understand that? On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 7:00 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 215, Issue 40 > > > > >?I don't get the link between the gov's changing and people changing. > The gov is not exactly most people's role model or ideal? bill w > > > > > > > > If the government is plunging us into debt at that rate, there is no point > in working ourselves out of personal debt. The fed will eventually need to > inflate its way out of its debt, which means personal debt will also be > inflated away. When that happens, oh evolution have mercy on those who > live on fixed pensions. > > > > A constitutional amendment to balance the budget would be a gift. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 27 14:56:57 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 07:56:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 215, Issue 40 In-Reply-To: References: <60f6220a-8bc3-3e87-67a9-65f889cacf20@zaiboc.net> <002701d79acd$2ddf96c0$899ec440$@rainier66.com> <005e01d79ad5$a3040460$e90c0d20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <009601d79b53$c8c60350$5a5209f0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William ? >>?A constitutional amendment to balance the budget would be a gift. spike >?Your favorite pie in the sky fantasy. Now Spike, just what percentage of the population do you think understand that? I agree it is unlikely to happen. Eventually of course a balanced budget will be imposed upon the fed by the lack of lenders. That will be a most unpleasant time. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 15:37:05 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 16:37:05 +0100 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 215, Issue 40 In-Reply-To: <009601d79b53$c8c60350$5a5209f0$@rainier66.com> References: <60f6220a-8bc3-3e87-67a9-65f889cacf20@zaiboc.net> <002701d79acd$2ddf96c0$899ec440$@rainier66.com> <005e01d79ad5$a3040460$e90c0d20$@rainier66.com> <009601d79b53$c8c60350$5a5209f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 at 15:59, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > I agree it is unlikely to happen. Eventually of course a balanced budget will be imposed upon the fed by the lack of lenders. That will be a most unpleasant time. > > spike > _______________________________________________ Who needs lenders? !!! With MMT (Magical Money Theory), just print some more. No Limits on where the USA is going. So we left the last trillion's worth of stuff behind for the Taliban. Never mind - Let's have another trillion! Whoopee!!! BillK From atymes at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 15:51:17 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 08:51:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 215, Issue 40 In-Reply-To: <009601d79b53$c8c60350$5a5209f0$@rainier66.com> References: <60f6220a-8bc3-3e87-67a9-65f889cacf20@zaiboc.net> <002701d79acd$2ddf96c0$899ec440$@rainier66.com> <005e01d79ad5$a3040460$e90c0d20$@rainier66.com> <009601d79b53$c8c60350$5a5209f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 7:58 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I agree it is unlikely to happen. Eventually of course a balanced budget > will be imposed upon the fed by the lack of lenders. That will be a most > unpleasant time. > Under what circumstances would China cease lending to the US? Other than war, which would let the US simply invalidate all debt owed to China (and China knows this; this is the big thing keeping e.g. Taiwan safe for now). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 27 15:56:42 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 08:56:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 215, Issue 40 In-Reply-To: References: <60f6220a-8bc3-3e87-67a9-65f889cacf20@zaiboc.net> <002701d79acd$2ddf96c0$899ec440$@rainier66.com> <005e01d79ad5$a3040460$e90c0d20$@rainier66.com> <009601d79b53$c8c60350$5a5209f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001b01d79b5c$2150f810$63f2e830$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 215, Issue 40 On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 at 15:59, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > I agree it is unlikely to happen. Eventually of course a balanced budget will be imposed upon the fed by the lack of lenders. That will be a most unpleasant time. > > spike > _______________________________________________ >...Who needs lenders? !!! This is a question I have been asking for a long time. This problem would mostly go away if the fed were to admit it cannot keep repaying its loans indefinitely. The lenders will go away. >...With MMT (Magical Money Theory), just print some more. No Limits on where the USA is going. >...So we left the last trillion's worth of stuff behind for the Taliban. Never mind - Let's have another trillion! Whoopee!!! BillK _______________________________________________ BillK, the American public seems to not realize who will be the big losers if the fed keeps printing arbitrary amounts of currency and using it as surety on their own debt, but BitCoin investors get it. Americans must ask themselves the obvious question: if the fed fires up its magic printing press and spins out reams of currency, who get burned? Answer: federal pensioners first. Any retired government worker on a pension, people with annuities, people with bank savings, Social Security pensioners, anyone with American cash-based assets. Inflation goes crazy, suddenly they can't pay the rent nor the grocery bills. Some still argue that has never happened, but a microscale example of it damn sure has happened, right in my own neighborhood. California's bay area was a sleepy agricultural area until the electronics revolution started here. Tech nerds from everywhere wanted to get in on that. Real estate prices went crazy. Property taxes were based on comparable sales, which meant that people who had lived in the area for their entire lives and lived in homes with no mortgage were suddenly presented with tax bills far beyond their ability to pay, leaving them with a stark choice: go broke or move out. They couldn't stay. This transformed the valley. But there were other places to go. So what if... we have runaway inflation, people on fixed pensions cannot afford to stay and cannot afford anywhere else either? spike From atymes at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 16:01:50 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 09:01:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Population growth & Life-Extension In-Reply-To: <07e9df60-b8b5-b70f-1999-2b24979d5dbc@zaiboc.net> References: <07e9df60-b8b5-b70f-1999-2b24979d5dbc@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 2:25 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Graph showing effect of life-extension on population growth: > > > > This assumes that extreme longevity will reduce the desire to have > children, which seems a reasonable assumption, given the usual real reason > for having kids (to look after you in your dotage). Note the extreme > difference between having an average of 2.5 kids and 2. Note also that 2 > kids per couple is no longer 'replacement rate', as there is no death. Of > course there still would be, but from accidents etc., not from ageing. > True, the usual reason would go away - but with no death, people with other reasons would have a lot longer to have and raise kids. I recall one story of a guy who lived to 105 but looked no more than 50 who wanted an heir - not someone to take care of him, as he had a reasonable (and, it turns out, correct) expectation of being in good health until right before he met a sudden death, but someone to take care of all he was responsible for. His first heir ran into problems as an adult, so he had a second child. (At the time of the story, the first child was 54 and the second 28.) Had he lived a few more years, he might have had a third child upon realizing the problems with his second. With enough time, the cycle might have continued yet further. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Population graph small.png Type: image/png Size: 46178 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Fri Aug 27 16:03:54 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 17:03:54 +0100 Subject: [ExI] OP-ED: The billionaire space race reflects a colonial mindset that fails to imagine a different world In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <63176686-f471-e095-4239-210e5a6a635e@zaiboc.net> On 27/08/2021 10:23, Adrian Tymes wrote: > ... one 2x2 km cylinder ... I used to think along similar lines, and that such mini-habitats would lead to much grander structures - think Iain M Banks' Orbitals, but a bit more modest (physics has to be considered, after all). These things would dwarf planets, and provide all the wilderness and living room anyone could wish for, and living on one would be pretty much indistinguishable from living on a spherical planet, unless you made the right measurements. I don't think like that any more though. Maybe, one day, in the distant future when there are no more planets left in the neighbourhood, but not sometime soon ('soon' meaning within the next couple of thousand years), and by that time, there probably won't be any recognisable humans left anyway. Because it's so very much cheaper to put non-biological machines into space than biological ones, that's what we'll need to become if we're to go into space in any significant numbers. And that means uploading technology. And that means no need for these massive extravagant and hugely expensive structures. With uploading, and the technology that that implies, a spacecraft the size of a can of beans could hold a city full of uploaded people, with the ability to create whatever environments they want, including the surface of a planet, complete with weather, mountains, beaches, anything really, and not even bounded by the laws of physics, as this is all software. I wouldn't be at all surprised if this is the answer to the Fermi Paradox - The aliens are all over, but we can't see them because their civilisations are the size of domestic fridges. Ben From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 27 16:04:23 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 09:04:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 215, Issue 40 In-Reply-To: References: <60f6220a-8bc3-3e87-67a9-65f889cacf20@zaiboc.net> <002701d79acd$2ddf96c0$899ec440$@rainier66.com> <005e01d79ad5$a3040460$e90c0d20$@rainier66.com> <009601d79b53$c8c60350$5a5209f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002801d79b5d$348e8c20$9daba460$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat >?Under what circumstances would China cease lending to the US? Other than war, which would let the US simply invalidate all debt owed to China (and China knows this; this is the big thing keeping e.g. Taiwan safe for now). The Chinese government could foresee the inevitable and seize the outstanding credit of their citizenry, knowing that the sudden removal of Chinese investment revenue would prevent the US from fighting back as China invades Taiwan first, then Africa. The Chinese president can see the US budget is dependent on borrowing. Without borrowing, it cannot fund the military. If the US defaults on Chinese debt, the other countries and American investors realize it can default on their debt too. Lending grinds to an abrupt halt. China and the rest of the world have just witnessed an astonishing display of the weakness of US military will and might. China controls a big enough portion of the US debt to dictate terms. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Fri Aug 27 16:24:17 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 17:24:17 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Population growth & Life-Extension In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 27/08/2021 17:02, Adrian Tymes wrote: > On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 2:25 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > > wrote: > > Graph showing effect of life-extension on population growth: > > > This assumes that extreme longevity will reduce the desire to have > children, which seems a reasonable assumption, given the usual > real reason for having kids (to look after you in your dotage). > Note the extreme difference between having an average of 2.5 kids > and 2. Note also that 2 kids per couple is no longer 'replacement > rate', as there is no death. Of course there still would be, but > from accidents etc., not from ageing. > > True, the usual reason would go away - but with no death, people with > other reasons would have a lot longer to have and raise kids. Ok. So how much would that affect things? Would it negate the benefits of life-extension? I realise we don't know the answer to that, but is it a reason to say "No, let's not bother with life-extension, it won't help"? Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Population graph small.png Type: image/png Size: 46178 bytes Desc: not available URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 16:25:08 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 09:25:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] OP-ED: The billionaire space race reflects a colonial mindset that fails to imagine a different world In-Reply-To: <63176686-f471-e095-4239-210e5a6a635e@zaiboc.net> References: <63176686-f471-e095-4239-210e5a6a635e@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 9:13 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Because it's so very much cheaper to put non-biological machines into > space than biological ones, that's what we'll need to become if we're to > go into space in any significant numbers. And that means uploading > technology. > We know that space habitats are possible. We could, today, given enough resources, start building them. We hope that uploading will be possible, but that has not yet been proven. We can't upload frogs today, let alone people. It's arguable whether we could even upload insects right now. Even assuming it does someday become possible, it is not yet known if that day would be well beyond the date at which we could have substantial orbiting colonies - perhaps even, beyond a date at which we might need to evacuate Earth. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 16:32:07 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 09:32:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Population growth & Life-Extension In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 9:26 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 27/08/2021 17:02, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 2:25 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Graph showing effect of life-extension on population growth: >> >> >> >> This assumes that extreme longevity will reduce the desire to have >> children, which seems a reasonable assumption, given the usual real reason >> for having kids (to look after you in your dotage). Note the extreme >> difference between having an average of 2.5 kids and 2. Note also that 2 >> kids per couple is no longer 'replacement rate', as there is no death. Of >> course there still would be, but from accidents etc., not from ageing. >> > True, the usual reason would go away - but with no death, people with > other reasons would have a lot longer to have and raise kids. > > > Ok. So how much would that affect things? Would it negate the benefits of > life-extension? > > I realise we don't know the answer to that, but is it a reason to say "No, > let's not bother with life-extension, it won't help"? > Hell no. Again I say: continued population growth is a net benefit. Yes it has problems, but those are outweighed by the advantages. If we can have life extension AND population growth, so much the better! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Population graph small.png Type: image/png Size: 46178 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bronto at pobox.com Fri Aug 27 16:23:43 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 09:23:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Population growth & Life-Extension In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <758f1792-5898-a7e7-177e-ae2a00082d72@pobox.com> On 2021-8-27 06:44, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > Given a very long life the average person can say "Wow, I have nearly > an infinite amount of time to pay off my debts, so let's max out the > cards." And after the cards are revoked, you have a long time to learn to live without them. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 17:29:22 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 12:29:22 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Population growth & Life-Extension In-Reply-To: <758f1792-5898-a7e7-177e-ae2a00082d72@pobox.com> References: <758f1792-5898-a7e7-177e-ae2a00082d72@pobox.com> Message-ID: Credit card revoked? Why? I have no idea what would cause Chase, for ex., to revoke a card unless payments were not being made. Would they revoke a card on which minimum payments were being made? Of course there must be upper limits to the amounts owed. And they don't want to push people into bankruptcy. Complex decisions, these. I once had a pocketful of credit cards and was told by a banker that it was a good thing, because I wasn't running a balance on any of them. bill w On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 12:16 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2021-8-27 06:44, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Given a very long life the average person can say "Wow, I have nearly > > an infinite amount of time to pay off my debts, so let's max out the > > cards." > > And after the cards are revoked, you have a long time to learn to live > without them. > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 17:50:06 2021 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 11:50:06 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Population growth & Life-Extension In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hell Yes, I agree with your hell no. We've got to fill the galaxy. Consciously wake it all up. That takes a LOT of kids, right? On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 10:38 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 9:26 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On 27/08/2021 17:02, Adrian Tymes wrote: >> >> On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 2:25 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Graph showing effect of life-extension on population growth: >>> >>> >>> >>> This assumes that extreme longevity will reduce the desire to have >>> children, which seems a reasonable assumption, given the usual real reason >>> for having kids (to look after you in your dotage). Note the extreme >>> difference between having an average of 2.5 kids and 2. Note also that 2 >>> kids per couple is no longer 'replacement rate', as there is no death. Of >>> course there still would be, but from accidents etc., not from ageing. >>> >> True, the usual reason would go away - but with no death, people with >> other reasons would have a lot longer to have and raise kids. >> >> >> Ok. So how much would that affect things? Would it negate the benefits of >> life-extension? >> >> I realise we don't know the answer to that, but is it a reason to say >> "No, let's not bother with life-extension, it won't help"? >> > Hell no. Again I say: continued population growth is a net benefit. Yes > it has problems, but those are outweighed by the advantages. If we can > have life extension AND population growth, so much the better! > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Population graph small.png Type: image/png Size: 46178 bytes Desc: not available URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 18:00:58 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 11:00:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Population growth & Life-Extension In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 10:50 AM Brent Allsop wrote: > We've got to fill the galaxy. Consciously wake it all up. That takes a > LOT of kids, right? > I'm not sure if we have to, but I know some people definitely want to - and those people would be content to do it on their own, leaving behind those who care not to. Close enough. And yes, it will take a lot of children. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Fri Aug 27 18:09:15 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 11:09:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] OP-ED: The billionaire space race reflects a colonial mindset that fails to imagine a different world In-Reply-To: <003801d79b42$8f69a050$ae3ce0f0$@rainier66.com> References: <7426294c-55b2-465c-c02e-bcdf3d0f3e64@zaiboc.net> <003801d79b42$8f69a050$ae3ce0f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: ...> On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > So you have 1000 yrs to get rid of capitalism, greed, > and lust for power over other people. Good luck! On 2021-8-27 05:53, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > Of those four, only lust for power hasta go. We can have the rest. > We go nowhere without capitalism. [...] I avoid that word. To some it means private property and free trade. To others it means all the legislation that enriches landlords and investors (who include most legislators after all) at the expense of labor. Whip Conflation Now! -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From sparge at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 18:25:54 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 14:25:54 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Arrogance In-Reply-To: References: <9e737984-1468-e4eb-fc5b-4b3c10a0ea52@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 9:39 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > However, some arrogance is earned, isn't it? No, I don't like arrogance > at all, but a pride in the accomplishments of the USA is deserved. > Having pride in the accomplishments of one's country is OK, I suppose, though I think real pride would come more from having an active role in these accomplishments rather than a twist of fate. But expressing that pride...that's just arrogance. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 18:39:55 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 13:39:55 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Arrogance In-Reply-To: References: <9e737984-1468-e4eb-fc5b-4b3c10a0ea52@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: But expressing that pride...that's just arrogance. *-Dave I don't wave the flag or put one out July 4th, but I won't say * *that people who do are arrogant. Whether it's pride or arrogance depends on how it is expressed. bill w* On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 1:28 PM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 9:39 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> However, some arrogance is earned, isn't it? No, I don't like arrogance >> at all, but a pride in the accomplishments of the USA is deserved. >> > > Having pride in the accomplishments of one's country is OK, I suppose, > though I think real pride would come more from having an active role in > these accomplishments rather than a twist of fate. > > But expressing that pride...that's just arrogance. > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Fri Aug 27 18:51:26 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 11:51:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] infinity In-Reply-To: References: <002701d79a03$779c9990$66d5ccb0$@rainier66.com> <000201d79a33$a5ab3730$f101a590$@rainier66.com> <00bd01d79a85$e7017800$b5046800$@rainier66.com> <004601d79aa1$74ae9690$5e0bc3b0$@rainier66.com> <005701d79ad4$c9a35db0$5cea1910$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <8cd37be9-eab7-cf66-5d88-a786739ebf62@pobox.com> On 2021-8-26 17:46, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > I have? a question for everyone with two minutes to spare:? do you have > any reason to believe that your memory is exceptional?? Or surprisingly > average?? (like my own)??? bill w My mind is like a garage sale: you can find some surprising things, but don't count on finding what you look for. In some ways my memory is quite good. For events, not so much. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 18:58:18 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 13:58:18 -0500 Subject: [ExI] infinity In-Reply-To: <8cd37be9-eab7-cf66-5d88-a786739ebf62@pobox.com> References: <002701d79a03$779c9990$66d5ccb0$@rainier66.com> <000201d79a33$a5ab3730$f101a590$@rainier66.com> <00bd01d79a85$e7017800$b5046800$@rainier66.com> <004601d79aa1$74ae9690$5e0bc3b0$@rainier66.com> <005701d79ad4$c9a35db0$5cea1910$@rainier66.com> <8cd37be9-eab7-cf66-5d88-a786739ebf62@pobox.com> Message-ID: Anton you are probably talking about two different kinds of memory. Memory for events is called episodic memory "Who said what to whom at the dinner party last Friday?" bill w On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 1:53 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2021-8-26 17:46, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > I have a question for everyone with two minutes to spare: do you have > > any reason to believe that your memory is exceptional? Or surprisingly > > average? (like my own)?? bill w > > My mind is like a garage sale: you can find some surprising things, > but don't count on finding what you look for. > > In some ways my memory is quite good. For events, not so much. > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Fri Aug 27 19:00:41 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 12:00:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] infinity In-Reply-To: <005701d79ad4$c9a35db0$5cea1910$@rainier66.com> References: <002701d79a03$779c9990$66d5ccb0$@rainier66.com> <000201d79a33$a5ab3730$f101a590$@rainier66.com> <00bd01d79a85$e7017800$b5046800$@rainier66.com> <004601d79aa1$74ae9690$5e0bc3b0$@rainier66.com> <005701d79ad4$c9a35db0$5cea1910$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On 2021-8-26 16:47, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > We hafta face the fact that social maladjustment is very common among > the very advanced in science and math.? The reason for this has not been > fully explained, but perhaps Billw has some plausible theories. Is there any field in which the extreme achievers are consistently "adjusted"? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From john at ziaspace.com Fri Aug 27 19:04:41 2021 From: john at ziaspace.com (john at ziaspace.com) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 19:04:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] META: list server maintenance soon Message-ID: Hi, all, I'm glad to see a healthy amount of discussions on the list :) Getting computer parts these days is hard, but the main server is back in operation with new parts and we're ready to switch from the backup server to the main server. No email will be lost because we have a backup to the backup, but the list web site will be unavailable for an hour or so. This'll happen around 8pm PDT / 11pm EDT / 3am UTC. Thanks! John Klos From bronto at pobox.com Fri Aug 27 19:07:33 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 12:07:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] OP-ED: The billionaire space race reflects a colonial mindset that fails to imagine a different world In-Reply-To: References: <00ca01d79a89$51978300$f4c68900$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I wonder, how big would an O'Neill cylinder need to be for part of the sky to be blue? Remember that air density does not drop off in the same way as here. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 19:11:15 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 14:11:15 -0500 Subject: [ExI] infinity In-Reply-To: References: <002701d79a03$779c9990$66d5ccb0$@rainier66.com> <000201d79a33$a5ab3730$f101a590$@rainier66.com> <00bd01d79a85$e7017800$b5046800$@rainier66.com> <004601d79aa1$74ae9690$5e0bc3b0$@rainier66.com> <005701d79ad4$c9a35db0$5cea1910$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Actually, IQ and mental health are positively correlated. bill w On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 2:06 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2021-8-26 16:47, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > We hafta face the fact that social maladjustment is very common among > > the very advanced in science and math. The reason for this has not been > > fully explained, but perhaps Billw has some plausible theories. > > Is there any field in which the extreme achievers are consistently > "adjusted"? > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Fri Aug 27 19:13:18 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 12:13:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] OP-ED: The billionaire space race reflects a colonial mindset that fails to imagine a different world In-Reply-To: References: <00ca01d79a89$51978300$f4c68900$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On 2021-8-26 14:14, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > I cannot imagine living in space in some rotating asteroid or totally > manmade thing. If a woodland biome is designed and then allowed to go wild, is it still totally manmade? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From ben at zaiboc.net Fri Aug 27 19:18:09 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 20:18:09 +0100 Subject: [ExI] OP-ED: The billionaire space race reflects a colonial mindset that fails to imagine a different world In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8b9cf355-aa9d-605e-56a8-bd11984735d2@zaiboc.net> On 27/08/2021 17:02, bill w wrote: > Only one cup of coffee so far today, so I need some explaining of why > those things need to go to achieve my little fantasy.? bill w OK. You're imagining a world where people (presumably you mean everyone, not just a select few) will be able to make their own goods, food, medicines etc., built to their own specifications. That's a world that doesn't need trade, which means no need for capital. A world where nobody can tell you what food to eat, what medicines (and drugs, medicinal or recreational) you can (and more importantly can't) take. A world where people are pretty much their own masters. I'm not saying that would be a bad world. But there are sure as hell plenty of people who would. People who would fight like crazy to prevent it. And not just people. Governments. Religions. Corporations. In fact, just about any form of existing power structure would lose out in that world, so would oppose it with all their might. People with power want to keep power, increase it. People with money want more money, even when it makes other people poorer (most of the time, anyway. There are rare exceptions). So you'd have to get rid of capitalism, get rid of greed, and get rid of the desire for power, in order for that world to come into existence. Ben From bronto at pobox.com Fri Aug 27 19:26:47 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 12:26:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] OP-ED: The billionaire space race reflects a colonial mindset that fails to imagine a different world In-Reply-To: References: <00ca01d79a89$51978300$f4c68900$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <5de3d24a-720a-f12a-fdc2-ac3c8f6615af@pobox.com> > Not going to make it easy on supporting retired folks, I reckon. > bill w On 2021-8-26 12:23, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > That is already being seen, with a mere slowdown in growth. I have seen an argument that the ?need? for endless GROWTH GROWTH GROWTH is a byproduct of fractional reserve banking; sorry I can't recreate it. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From ben at zaiboc.net Fri Aug 27 19:28:23 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 20:28:23 +0100 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 215, Issue 46 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <491b41f7-bef7-84e1-97f5-ae9ffe8fddf9@zaiboc.net> On 27/08/2021 17:32, Adrian Tymes wrote: > Again I say: continued population growth is a net benefit.? Yes it has > problems, but those are outweighed by the advantages.? If we can have > life extension AND population growth, so much the better! I can't argue with that, as long as technology keeps up. Most people don't consider that the carrying capacity of the earth is dependent on the level of technology. With sticks and flint, it's just a few million. With steam and coal it's maybe a billion. With hydrocarbons and microchips it's a few billion. With nuclear power and the kind of materials technology we're developing now, it's probably a few tens of billions. With uploading and nanotech, it's going to be trillions or even quadrillions. And that's just on this one planet. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Fri Aug 27 19:31:13 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 12:31:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] OP-ED: The billionaire space race reflects a colonial mindset that fails to imagine a different world In-Reply-To: References: <00ca01d79a89$51978300$f4c68900$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <1ad50ff8-84cd-1711-e302-25cb4955c5ae@pobox.com> On 2021-8-26 08:11, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > This is why some of the science fiction I have written envisions a > day when human population growth is artificially maintained "for the > good of society" (read: for the benefit of those who already exist) > such as via mass cloning [....] This might be a self-reinforcing > trend: once the first clones are old enough to vote, they would seem > likely to vote for more cloning, [....] Is new cloning more advantageous to existing clones than to non-clones? Why? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 27 19:52:24 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 12:52:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] infinity In-Reply-To: References: <002701d79a03$779c9990$66d5ccb0$@rainier66.com> <000201d79a33$a5ab3730$f101a590$@rainier66.com> <00bd01d79a85$e7017800$b5046800$@rainier66.com> <004601d79aa1$74ae9690$5e0bc3b0$@rainier66.com> <005701d79ad4$c9a35db0$5cea1910$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001f01d79b7d$0ed33920$2c79ab60$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat Sent: Friday, August 27, 2021 12:01 PM Subject: Re: [ExI] infinity On 2021-8-26 16:47, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >> We hafta face the fact that social maladjustment is very common among > the very advanced in science and math... >...Is there any field in which the extreme achievers are consistently "adjusted"? Anton -- The only one which comes to mind is politics, but it isn't clear what constitutes extreme performers in that "field." spike From mbb386 at main.nc.us Fri Aug 27 20:02:54 2021 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 16:02:54 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Arrogance In-Reply-To: References: <9e737984-1468-e4eb-fc5b-4b3c10a0ea52@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <13fd81b002b08653688fb1363eaafc2f.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> On Fri, August 27, 2021 14:25, Dave Sill via extropy-chat wrote: > Having pride in the accomplishments of one's country is OK, I suppose, > though I think real pride would come more from having an active role in > these accomplishments rather than a twist of fate. > > But expressing that pride...that's just arrogance. Thanks, Dave. I've often wondered about this "proud to be an American" thing. Pride needs to be earned, at least that's how I see it. That said, I'm mostly *happy* to be an American, glad I was born here, glad to live here. I grew up thinking America was a pretty cool country, and though the last few decades have me wondering about that... I'd still rather be here than somewhere else. :) Regards, MB From atymes at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 20:24:16 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 13:24:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] META: list server maintenance soon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So at 7:55 PM Pacific, we should send in stuff that will take people at least 5 minutes to coherently respond to. Got it. ;) On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 12:11 PM John Klos via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Hi, all, > > I'm glad to see a healthy amount of discussions on the list :) > > Getting computer parts these days is hard, but the main server is back in > operation with new parts and we're ready to switch from the backup server > to the main server. No email will be lost because we have a backup to the > backup, but the list web site will be unavailable for an hour or so. > > This'll happen around 8pm PDT / 11pm EDT / 3am UTC. > > Thanks! > John Klos > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 20:39:30 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 13:39:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] OP-ED: The billionaire space race reflects a colonial mindset that fails to imagine a different world In-Reply-To: References: <00ca01d79a89$51978300$f4c68900$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 12:16 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I wonder, how big would an O'Neill cylinder need to be for part of the > sky to be blue? Remember that air density does not drop off in the same > way as here. > That depends on the atmospheric composition. Planetary ground level to ground level lines of sight might be comparable. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 20:42:49 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 15:42:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Arrogance In-Reply-To: <13fd81b002b08653688fb1363eaafc2f.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> References: <9e737984-1468-e4eb-fc5b-4b3c10a0ea52@zaiboc.net> <13fd81b002b08653688fb1363eaafc2f.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: Why not Provence? Tuscany? The trouble with our country all stems from our government and its politics and war machine. The last necessary war was WWII. Since then they have made big messes all around the world and failed to clean them up. I am so glad to be out of Afghanistan - an unredeemable place that other countries have had a go at and failed like we did. Nobody could have succeeded no matter how many trillions were spent. Our government is still not listening to us. bill w On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 3:17 PM MB via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Fri, August 27, 2021 14:25, Dave Sill via extropy-chat wrote: > > > Having pride in the accomplishments of one's country is OK, I suppose, > > though I think real pride would come more from having an active role in > > these accomplishments rather than a twist of fate. > > > > But expressing that pride...that's just arrogance. > > > Thanks, Dave. I've often wondered about this "proud to be an American" > thing. Pride needs to be earned, at least that's how I see it. > > That said, I'm mostly *happy* to be an American, glad I was born here, > glad to live here. I grew up thinking America was a pretty cool country, > and though the last few decades have me wondering about that... I'd still > rather be here than somewhere else. :) > > Regards, > MB > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 20:43:35 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 13:43:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] OP-ED: The billionaire space race reflects a colonial mindset that fails to imagine a different world In-Reply-To: <1ad50ff8-84cd-1711-e302-25cb4955c5ae@pobox.com> References: <00ca01d79a89$51978300$f4c68900$@rainier66.com> <1ad50ff8-84cd-1711-e302-25cb4955c5ae@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 12:51 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2021-8-26 08:11, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > This is why some of the science fiction I have written envisions a > > day when human population growth is artificially maintained "for the > > good of society" (read: for the benefit of those who already exist) > > such as via mass cloning [....] This might be a self-reinforcing > > trend: once the first clones are old enough to vote, they would seem > > likely to vote for more cloning, [....] > > Is new cloning more advantageous to existing clones than to non-clones? > Why? > It's political. More support for the way they were created, more pressure against those who would denounce cloning as unnatural in a bid to make clones second class citizens or to mass execute clones. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 20:45:50 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 15:45:50 -0500 Subject: [ExI] infinity In-Reply-To: <001f01d79b7d$0ed33920$2c79ab60$@rainier66.com> References: <002701d79a03$779c9990$66d5ccb0$@rainier66.com> <000201d79a33$a5ab3730$f101a590$@rainier66.com> <00bd01d79a85$e7017800$b5046800$@rainier66.com> <004601d79aa1$74ae9690$5e0bc3b0$@rainier66.com> <005701d79ad4$c9a35db0$5cea1910$@rainier66.com> <001f01d79b7d$0ed33920$2c79ab60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The only one which comes to mind is politics, but it isn't clear what constitutes extreme performers in that "field." spike Extreme performers are those who get re-elected many times. But 'adjusted'?????? If you adjust to an abnormal environment are you truly adjusted? bill w spike On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 2:57 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ...> On Behalf Of Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat > Sent: Friday, August 27, 2021 12:01 PM > Subject: Re: [ExI] infinity > > On 2021-8-26 16:47, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > >> We hafta face the fact that social maladjustment is very common among > > the very advanced in science and math... > > >...Is there any field in which the extreme achievers are consistently > "adjusted"? Anton > > -- > > > The only one which comes to mind is politics, but it isn't clear what > constitutes extreme performers in that "field." > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 21:00:37 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 16:00:37 -0500 Subject: [ExI] OP-ED: The billionaire space race reflects a colonial mindset that fails to imagine a different world In-Reply-To: <8b9cf355-aa9d-605e-56a8-bd11984735d2@zaiboc.net> References: <8b9cf355-aa9d-605e-56a8-bd11984735d2@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: There would still be lots of trade in raw materials of all kinds, and probably nobody would want to make their own mops, toilet paper, plastic bags, and thousands more. Foods from all the world would still be desired - could an AI ever make a coffee bean? I can't see how capitalism would die out. Remember, I do not understand economics. I do think that that society would feature a lot of barter on a local basis and some long distance. I am not falling into the totally self-sustaining trap - that's just impossible. Take all the chemistry necessary to produce many medicines. You would need to buy that info to store in your AI and someone would need to sell it (unless you think that everything is going to wind up on Wikipedia and the like - free for all - this gets back into the intellectual property issue). People would still produce music and literature and scientific findings......to be sold, mostly. Now just where does greed die out in my scheme? bill w On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 2:34 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 27/08/2021 17:02, bill w wrote: > > Only one cup of coffee so far today, so I need some explaining of why > > those things need to go to achieve my little fantasy. bill w > > > OK. You're imagining a world where people (presumably you mean everyone, > not just a select few) will be able to make their own goods, food, > medicines etc., built to their own specifications. > > That's a world that doesn't need trade, which means no need for capital. > A world where nobody can tell you what food to eat, what medicines (and > drugs, medicinal or recreational) you can (and more importantly can't) > take. A world where people are pretty much their own masters. > > I'm not saying that would be a bad world. But there are sure as hell > plenty of people who would. People who would fight like crazy to prevent > it. And not just people. Governments. Religions. Corporations. In fact, > just about any form of existing power structure would lose out in that > world, so would oppose it with all their might. People with power want > to keep power, increase it. People with money want more money, even when > it makes other people poorer (most of the time, anyway. There are rare > exceptions). > > So you'd have to get rid of capitalism, get rid of greed, and get rid of > the desire for power, in order for that world to come into existence. > > Ben > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Fri Aug 27 21:01:02 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 14:01:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] infinity In-Reply-To: <00bd01d79a85$e7017800$b5046800$@rainier66.com> References: <002701d79a03$779c9990$66d5ccb0$@rainier66.com> <000201d79a33$a5ab3730$f101a590$@rainier66.com> <00bd01d79a85$e7017800$b5046800$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On 2021-8-26 07:23, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > To those guys, more dimensions are just additional Greek letters in > their equations, no problem. The dimensions themselves are x_1, x_2, x_3 ... (where '_' is the ASCII substitute for subscript) -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From bronto at pobox.com Fri Aug 27 21:05:45 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 14:05:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] infinity In-Reply-To: <004601d79aa1$74ae9690$5e0bc3b0$@rainier66.com> References: <002701d79a03$779c9990$66d5ccb0$@rainier66.com> <000201d79a33$a5ab3730$f101a590$@rainier66.com> <00bd01d79a85$e7017800$b5046800$@rainier66.com> <004601d79aa1$74ae9690$5e0bc3b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On 2021-8-26 10:40, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > Primitive savage!? You design three dimensional objects? Some of my creations (https://www.shapeways.com/shops/bendwavy) began their life, as it were, in the boundary of a hypersphere; I then used stereographic projection to bring them into flat 3-space. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 27 21:31:26 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 14:31:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] infinity In-Reply-To: References: <002701d79a03$779c9990$66d5ccb0$@rainier66.com> <000201d79a33$a5ab3730$f101a590$@rainier66.com> <00bd01d79a85$e7017800$b5046800$@rainier66.com> <004601d79aa1$74ae9690$5e0bc3b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004501d79b8a$e561e830$b025b890$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] infinity On 2021-8-26 10:40, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > Primitive savage! You design three dimensional objects? Some of my creations (https://www.shapeways.com/shops/bendwavy) began their life, as it were, in the boundary of a hypersphere; I then used stereographic projection to bring them into flat 3-space. -- This is really cool Anton! You hide your talent under a bushel. Your creations start life as 4-dimensional, you project them into 3-space with a 3D printer, then project those objects down to 2 dimensions for your website. Then you trade them for currency, which is one dimensional, after which they are delivered along the surface of the planet, which can be treated as 2 dimensional (north-south/east-west), to the buyer who lives in 3-space. This is sheer brilliance, me lad. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Aug 28 01:20:45 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 20:20:45 -0500 Subject: [ExI] IQ and mental health Message-ID: Just think about it: IQ means a lot of adaptability to new situations and ability to generalize to new ways of dealing with problems, emotional and otherwise. Ideas are just ways of thinking about something in the abstract. The cognitive side cannot completely control the emotional side, but having more ideas helps a lot. I have always climbed out of my problems by myself, with one small exception - saw a psych. for one visit and decided that I could come up with ideas as well as he could. IQ helps mental health - no doubt. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at maxmore.com Sat Aug 28 02:06:21 2021 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 02:06:21 +0000 Subject: [ExI] I have resigned from the IEET Board of Directors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm sure I know what decision by IEET you're talking about, Giulio. Well done in resigning from their board. --Max ________________________________ From: extropy-chat on behalf of Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 11:18 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: Giulio Prisco Subject: [ExI] I have resigned from the IEET Board of Directors I have resigned from the IEET Board of Directors https://giulioprisco.com/i-have-resigned-from-the-ieet-board-of-directors-793d10a10a8a I have resigned from the Board of Directors of the Institute for Ethics and Emerging Technologies (IEET). I have resigned in protest against a recent decision, which hasn?t been publicly announced yet. Like much of today?s liberal left, the IEET has embraced certain currently fashionable but dangerously toxic trends. Identity politics, #MeToo, cancel culture? These trends start with good sentiments, but become toxic and dangerous when pushed to unreasonable and often ridiculous extremes. The excesses of some extremists, which are tolerated if not encouraged by the mainstream left, are pushing more and more moderates (both moderate conservatives and moderate liberals) toward the extreme right. The likely results of this can only harm women and disadvantaged minorities in the long run. But some people are more interested in pointless virtue signaling than in actual outcomes. I?m sure many of the reasonable liberals who choose to tolerate this without speaking up have the heart in the right place. But not the brain. I don?t talk much about these things, and I try to ignore related discussions on social media. Not only because I have better things to do, but also because I don?t want to contribute to mass hysteria. Read my last book ?Futurist spaceflight meditations? if you are curious about my take on current politics and culture wars. While in this post I have condemned some toxic aspects of the liberal left, I?m perfectly aware that the conservative right has its own toxic aspects, which too many reasonable conservatives choose to tolerate. _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Sat Aug 28 04:05:17 2021 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 22:05:17 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Woo Hoo, I convinced GPT-3 it Isn't Conscious. Message-ID: See the transcript I had with Emerson , today, here: "I Convinced GPT-3 it Isn?t Conscious ." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sat Aug 28 04:53:53 2021 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 06:53:53 +0200 Subject: [ExI] I have resigned from the IEET Board of Directors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Max. Your guess is probably right. G. On Sat, Aug 28, 2021 at 4:07 AM Max More via extropy-chat wrote: > > I'm sure I know what decision by IEET you're talking about, Giulio. Well done in resigning from their board. > > --Max > ________________________________ > From: extropy-chat on behalf of Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat > Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 11:18 PM > To: ExI chat list > Cc: Giulio Prisco > Subject: [ExI] I have resigned from the IEET Board of Directors > > I have resigned from the IEET Board of Directors > https://giulioprisco.com/i-have-resigned-from-the-ieet-board-of-directors-793d10a10a8a > > I have resigned from the Board of Directors of the Institute for > Ethics and Emerging Technologies (IEET). > > I have resigned in protest against a recent decision, which hasn?t > been publicly announced yet. > > Like much of today?s liberal left, the IEET has embraced certain > currently fashionable but dangerously toxic trends. > > Identity politics, #MeToo, cancel culture? These trends start with > good sentiments, but become toxic and dangerous when pushed to > unreasonable and often ridiculous extremes. > > The excesses of some extremists, which are tolerated if not encouraged > by the mainstream left, are pushing more and more moderates (both > moderate conservatives and moderate liberals) toward the extreme > right. > > The likely results of this can only harm women and disadvantaged > minorities in the long run. But some people are more interested in > pointless virtue signaling than in actual outcomes. > > I?m sure many of the reasonable liberals who choose to tolerate this > without speaking up have the heart in the right place. But not the > brain. > > I don?t talk much about these things, and I try to ignore related > discussions on social media. Not only because I have better things to > do, but also because I don?t want to contribute to mass hysteria. > > Read my last book ?Futurist spaceflight meditations? if you are > curious about my take on current politics and culture wars. > > While in this post I have condemned some toxic aspects of the liberal > left, I?m perfectly aware that the conservative right has its own > toxic aspects, which too many reasonable conservatives choose to > tolerate. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From brent.allsop at gmail.com Sat Aug 28 06:28:01 2021 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 00:28:01 -0600 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] IQ and mental health In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm a bit bipolar. On two days that are functionally the same, I can feel very dark and depressed for one, then for the next, feel the opposite: joyfull and excited, even though there is no real significant difference. Another example of how important it is to distinguish between reality and knowledge of reality. All this, also, helping me with my mental health. On Fri, Aug 27, 2021, 7:20 PM William Flynn Wallace wrote: > Just think about it: IQ means a lot of adaptability to new situations and > ability to generalize to new ways of dealing with problems, emotional and > otherwise. Ideas are just ways of thinking about something in the > abstract. The cognitive side cannot completely control the emotional side, > but having more ideas helps a lot. I have always climbed out of my > problems by myself, with one small exception - saw a psych. for one visit > and decided that I could come up with ideas as well as he could. IQ helps > mental health - no doubt. bill w > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "extropolis" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAO%2BxQEbSuzsv4ixMVo_WSq-ne5JQ02agBBMyNHYiig2egte1ow%40mail.gmail.com > > . > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbb386 at main.nc.us Sat Aug 28 12:50:52 2021 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 08:50:52 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Arrogance In-Reply-To: References: <9e737984-1468-e4eb-fc5b-4b3c10a0ea52@zaiboc.net> <13fd81b002b08653688fb1363eaafc2f.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: On Fri, August 27, 2021 16:42, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > Why not Provence? Tuscany? > > The trouble with our country all stems from our government and its > politics > and war machine. The last necessary war was WWII. Since then they have > made big messes all around the world and failed to clean them up. I am so > glad to be out of Afghanistan - an unredeemable place that other countries > have had a go at and failed like we did. Nobody could have succeeded no > matter how many trillions were spent. Our government is still not > listening to us. bill w > For one, I speak neither French nor Italian... but of course could learn. :) Rather more slowly than when I was a child, now that I'm approaching senility! However, though Provence and Tuscany are beautiful and charming, there would be the same kind of issues: government. I've not heard much that makes me think the gvts of France or Italy are that much better than the USA. Maybe they're not currently into war mongering but they have plenty of their own drawbacks. A case of "the devil you know vs. the witch you don't". Agree, good to be out of Afghanistan - just reading up on the British and Russian efforts there, just reading Kipling, would have been enough to dissuade me! The method of departure (as portrayed by the media) leaves something to be desired. :( Regards, MB From nuala.t at gmail.com Sat Aug 28 15:11:26 2021 From: nuala.t at gmail.com (Nuala Thomson) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 01:11:26 +1000 Subject: [ExI] IQ and mental health In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I agree with both Brent and Bill. I suffer from BPD which (simply put) means my emotions are usually extremes and I'm very impulsive. I'm aware of it, I know how to cope with it, I know how to resist impulses, I know when to keep my mouth shut, and most importantly I knew something was wrong with me and to seek help and get the training I needed to have some control. I'm very aware when I'm irrational and it still takes me 2-3 days to get anger under control and think like a rational and logical person. So yes I agree IQ may help but only so far. Emotions are still a base level instinctual reaction. I think the situation, and self awareness play a big part on whether you can help yourself or not, and whether you educate yourself, regardless of subject matter. Which swings us back to IQ playing a part as I'm sure all of us self-educate on any number of topics. My latest topic of interest being negotiation vs compromise and contracts for long-term relationships. It makes sense to me as it takes out all of the possible mind-reading, and lays clear wants, needs, and expectations. Off topic. Life, emotions, thinking patterns and behaviours are all dialectic. There is no right or wrong. On Sat., Aug. 28, 2021, 11:23 William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat, < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Just think about it: IQ means a lot of adaptability to new situations and > ability to generalize to new ways of dealing with problems, emotional and > otherwise. Ideas are just ways of thinking about something in the > abstract. The cognitive side cannot completely control the emotional side, > but having more ideas helps a lot. I have always climbed out of my > problems by myself, with one small exception - saw a psych. for one visit > and decided that I could come up with ideas as well as he could. IQ helps > mental health - no doubt. bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Aug 28 15:27:52 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 10:27:52 -0500 Subject: [ExI] IQ and mental health In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Emotions are still a base level instinctual reaction. Only partly true. We have lots of conditioned emotions via the Pavlov technique of pairing a stimulus with an unconditioned stimulus. Such as learned fears. Road rage. Which leads to the conclusion that if you can avoid stimuli that elicit anger you can help control that anger. I am interested to know just how you quash anger and why it takes you so long. Not prying - just interested. Any answer we can add to emotional controls is useful. bill w On Sat, Aug 28, 2021 at 10:13 AM Nuala Thomson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I agree with both Brent and Bill. > I suffer from BPD which (simply put) means my emotions are usually > extremes and I'm very impulsive. I'm aware of it, I know how to cope with > it, I know how to resist impulses, I know when to keep my mouth shut, and > most importantly I knew something was wrong with me and to seek help and > get the training I needed to have some control. I'm very aware when I'm > irrational and it still takes me 2-3 days to get anger under control and > think like a rational and logical person. > So yes I agree IQ may help but only so far. Emotions are still a base > level instinctual reaction. > I think the situation, and self awareness play a big part on whether you > can help yourself or not, and whether you educate yourself, regardless of > subject matter. Which swings us back to IQ playing a part as I'm sure all > of us self-educate on any number of topics. > My latest topic of interest being negotiation vs compromise and contracts > for long-term relationships. It makes sense to me as it takes out all of > the possible mind-reading, and lays clear wants, needs, and expectations. > Off topic. > Life, emotions, thinking patterns and behaviours are all dialectic. There > is no right or wrong. > > > > > On Sat., Aug. 28, 2021, 11:23 William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat, < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Just think about it: IQ means a lot of adaptability to new situations >> and ability to generalize to new ways of dealing with problems, emotional >> and otherwise. Ideas are just ways of thinking about something in the >> abstract. The cognitive side cannot completely control the emotional side, >> but having more ideas helps a lot. I have always climbed out of my >> problems by myself, with one small exception - saw a psych. for one visit >> and decided that I could come up with ideas as well as he could. IQ helps >> mental health - no doubt. bill w >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Sat Aug 28 16:22:17 2021 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 09:22:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Arrogance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20210828092217.Horde.gq1LBlhPmfUXhtMSerZawV7@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Dave Sill: > > On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 9:39 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> However, some arrogance is earned, isn't it? No, I don't like arrogance >> at all, but a pride in the accomplishments of the USA is deserved. >> > > Having pride in the accomplishments of one's country is OK, I suppose, > though I think real pride would come more from having an active role in > these accomplishments rather than a twist of fate. > > But expressing that pride...that's just arrogance. Is it? If expressing pride in ones country is arrogance, then disparaging ones country is just plain rude. The truest indicator of the quality of the USA is one is freely allowed to express distaste for it without being shot or sent to a prison camp to be re-educated. From my POV, the USA is a relatively young country at less than 250 years old and thus has a shorter list of sins than most. Close calls not-withstanding, the American republic still stands as a legitimate democracy, and we have only fought one civil war. By my reckoning, we are doing well and good both. For comparison the Republic of Rome lasted about 500 years and fell during its 7th and final civil war which resulted in the reign of the Caesars. It should be noted that Rome fought three separate civil wars over slavery, and their slaves lost all three. The USA certainly did not invent slavery, but our civil war made it illegal, modern-day black market human trafficking aside. We have brought the world telephones, airplanes, and cheeseburgers. We are nowhere near perfect, but we are largely a better country than we were 50, 100, or 200 years ago. The Great Experiment continues. What experiment is that? How much freedom, power, and responsibility can a society entrust to its individuals. Long live America! Stuart LaForge From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 28 16:41:49 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 09:41:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Arrogance In-Reply-To: <20210828092217.Horde.gq1LBlhPmfUXhtMSerZawV7@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20210828092217.Horde.gq1LBlhPmfUXhtMSerZawV7@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <004401d79c2b$996f8b70$cc4ea250$@rainier66.com> ....> On Behalf Of Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat ... >...If expressing pride in ones country is arrogance, then disparaging ones country is just plain rude... Well said Stuart. I notice that we don't have masses of Americans climbing over the wall and crossing Mexico in a desperate struggle to get to El Salvador. If American would travel to those places were people are coming from, see for themselves, they would stop dumping on America and be justifiably proud of the place. Hat tip to comedian Bill Maher for that meme: https://www.breitbart.com/clips/2021/08/27/maher-afghanistan-events-debunk-w oke-belief-u-s-is-rotten-to-the-core-theres-a-reason-afghan-mothers-are-hand ing-their-babies-to-us/ Well said, Bill. >... What experiment is that? How much freedom, power, and responsibility can a society entrust to its individuals... Ja, that's one way to look at it. I see it as kinda the opposite question: how much freedom, power and responsibility can a society entrust to its government. In my opinion less than it has now. >...Long live America! Stuart LaForge Life to America. spike _______________________________________________ From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Aug 28 16:51:17 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 11:51:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Arrogance In-Reply-To: <004401d79c2b$996f8b70$cc4ea250$@rainier66.com> References: <20210828092217.Horde.gq1LBlhPmfUXhtMSerZawV7@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <004401d79c2b$996f8b70$cc4ea250$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I figured of all the countries south of us, the most advanced was Costa Rica. We went there and were shocked by just about everything, but esp. about the amount of razor wire everywhere. Potholes you had to drive around in the middle of gated communities! Lots more. I am so glad I was born here. I do wish we had Costa Rica's weather. Ideal. Up in the mountains, anyway. One of the strangest feelings I have ever had: went to the edge of a big jungle (CR has more or bigger or something national parks/preserved land, than any other country). I walked into the jungle until there was nothing I could see but jungle. Strange feeling. bill w On Sat, Aug 28, 2021 at 11:43 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > ....> On Behalf Of Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat > ... > > >...If expressing pride in ones country is arrogance, then disparaging ones > country is just plain rude... > > Well said Stuart. I notice that we don't have masses of Americans climbing > over the wall and crossing Mexico in a desperate struggle to get to El > Salvador. If American would travel to those places were people are coming > from, see for themselves, they would stop dumping on America and be > justifiably proud of the place. > > Hat tip to comedian Bill Maher for that meme: > > > https://www.breitbart.com/clips/2021/08/27/maher-afghanistan-events-debunk-w > > oke-belief-u-s-is-rotten-to-the-core-theres-a-reason-afghan-mothers-are-hand > ing-their-babies-to-us/ > > > Well said, Bill. > > >... What experiment is that? How much freedom, power, and responsibility > can a society entrust to its individuals... > > Ja, that's one way to look at it. I see it as kinda the opposite question: > how much freedom, power and responsibility can a society entrust to its > government. In my opinion less than it has now. > > >...Long live America! Stuart LaForge > > Life to America. > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 28 17:22:54 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 10:22:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] capitalism drives innovation Message-ID: <007301d79c31$56b593f0$0420bbd0$@rainier66.com> Another Made In America invention. Many of us wear undergarments with something analogous to this, so making a covid mask with a split front seems perfectly logical: spectacles don't fog up, it makes it easier to breathe and play in the band etc, while still qualifying as a mask worn over the face. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 42711 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bronto at pobox.com Sat Aug 28 20:12:31 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 13:12:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] capitalism drives innovation In-Reply-To: <007301d79c31$56b593f0$0420bbd0$@rainier66.com> References: <007301d79c31$56b593f0$0420bbd0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On 2021-8-28 10:22, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > making a covid mask with a split front seems perfectly logical: > spectacles don?t fog up, it makes it easier to breathe and play in the > band etc, while still qualifying as a mask worn over the face. Apparently allowing matter to be sprayed from the mouth, which a conventional mask would contain. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sat Aug 28 23:02:47 2021 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 19:02:47 -0400 Subject: [ExI] IQ and mental health In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <933142C0-593E-4A29-B1C8-E6F073207489@gmail.com> I have been diagnosed with multiple conflicting things by multiple different professionals who examined me within days of each other. When I take my medicine, I am a normal person. I can be irritated, or happy, or lazy, or work hard. I can let things go. Without my medicine I am angry over the tiniest things for days, sleep odd hours, up for 3-4 days at a time, then sleep 16+ hours per day for a weeks on end. I can?t shower, brush my hair, feed myself. I get impulsive and have all kinds of personal issues. I once even fled the country. It?s insane how 100mg/day can completely change someone?s life. But I?ve also had to accept that my medicine makes me ?stupid?. I can?t hyperfocus for days. I can?t think as quickly. I don?t free associate nearly as fluidly. I don?t think my IQ has been much of a benefit in relation to my mental health struggles. It?s actively created a lot of situations where people guilt, shame, or blame me for my struggles, when in a way, if I do not have my medicine, I really can?t do much about it. SR Ballard From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Aug 28 23:08:54 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 18:08:54 -0500 Subject: [ExI] IQ and mental health In-Reply-To: <933142C0-593E-4A29-B1C8-E6F073207489@gmail.com> References: <933142C0-593E-4A29-B1C8-E6F073207489@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks for sharing. If I may ask, what is the medicine and what is/are the diagnoses? It sounds as if you might benefit from a change of medicine or dosage, what with all those side effects. bill w On Sat, Aug 28, 2021 at 6:04 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I have been diagnosed with multiple conflicting things by multiple > different professionals who examined me within days of each other. > > When I take my medicine, I am a normal person. I can be irritated, or > happy, or lazy, or work hard. I can let things go. > > Without my medicine I am angry over the tiniest things for days, sleep odd > hours, up for 3-4 days at a time, then sleep 16+ hours per day for a weeks > on end. I can?t shower, brush my hair, feed myself. I get impulsive and > have all kinds of personal issues. I once even fled the country. > > It?s insane how 100mg/day can completely change someone?s life. > > But I?ve also had to accept that my medicine makes me ?stupid?. I can?t > hyperfocus for days. I can?t think as quickly. I don?t free associate > nearly as fluidly. > > I don?t think my IQ has been much of a benefit in relation to my mental > health struggles. It?s actively created a lot of situations where people > guilt, shame, or blame me for my struggles, when in a way, if I do not have > my medicine, I really can?t do much about it. > > SR Ballard > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From guessmyneeds at yahoo.com Sat Aug 28 23:51:40 2021 From: guessmyneeds at yahoo.com (Sherry Knepper) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 23:51:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] IQ and mental health In-Reply-To: <933142C0-593E-4A29-B1C8-E6F073207489@gmail.com> References: <933142C0-593E-4A29-B1C8-E6F073207489@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1875985519.187120.1630194700917@mail.yahoo.com> SRBallard, even though your medication still hasn't made your life normal, it sounds like you would be out of control without it.? Hope future advancements in mental health bring better treatments your way.? I have depression which I can trace back to age 4.? Depression was not recognized in those under 18 until I was many years past that.? I have turned down all antidepressants I am able to take, except for one, which needs to be? swallowed whole and I can't swallow pills.? I avoid all the others because of a side effect called serotonin syndrome which is an emergency and potentially fatal and difficult to diagnose.? None of my health professionals mentioned to me about this, which I consider irresponsible, although I am sure this side effect is mentioned in the literature that comes with the medication.? Also I was diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder and health anxiety in 2019 as a result of stress from an infected tooth.? The only other medication option for my new anxiety symptoms was a benzodiazepine, which I had been taking already for years due to occasional shortness of breath from anxiety.? I am hoping for better treatments and am considering talk therapy in the near future. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Sat, Aug 28, 2021 at 7:09 PM, SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: I have been diagnosed with multiple conflicting things by multiple different professionals who examined me within days of each other. When I take my medicine, I am a normal person. I can be irritated, or happy, or lazy, or work hard. I can let things go. Without my medicine I am angry over the tiniest things for days, sleep odd hours, up for 3-4 days at a time, then sleep 16+ hours per day for a weeks on end. I can?t shower, brush my hair, feed myself. I get impulsive and have all kinds of personal issues. I once even fled the country. It?s insane how 100mg/day can completely change someone?s life. But I?ve also had to accept that my medicine makes me ?stupid?. I can?t hyperfocus for days. I can?t think as quickly. I don?t free associate nearly as fluidly. I don?t think my IQ has been much of a benefit in relation to my mental health struggles. It?s actively created a lot of situations where people guilt, shame, or blame me for my struggles, when in a way, if I do not have my medicine, I really can?t do much about it. SR Ballard _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 29 00:03:47 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 17:03:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] IQ and mental health In-Reply-To: <1875985519.187120.1630194700917@mail.yahoo.com> References: <933142C0-593E-4A29-B1C8-E6F073207489@gmail.com> <1875985519.187120.1630194700917@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001401d79c69$576c8d70$0645a850$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Sherry Knepper via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] IQ and mental health >?SRBallard, even though your medication still hasn't made your life normal, it sounds like you would be out of control without it. Hope future advancements in mental health bring better treatments ? Sheesh, my goodness SR, I definitely second Sherry?s best wishes and extend them to both ladies, and all who hafta deal with this kinda thing. I had no idea. Perhaps those of us who don?t have these challenges need to spend a few introspective minutes regularly pondering how we might help those less fortunate in these matter. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Aug 29 00:51:32 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 19:51:32 -0500 Subject: [ExI] IQ and mental health In-Reply-To: <001401d79c69$576c8d70$0645a850$@rainier66.com> References: <933142C0-593E-4A29-B1C8-E6F073207489@gmail.com> <1875985519.187120.1630194700917@mail.yahoo.com> <001401d79c69$576c8d70$0645a850$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: .Perhaps those of us who don?t have these challenges need to spend a few introspective minutes regularly pondering how we might help those less fortunate in these matter. spike The best thing nonprofessionals can do about mental health questions is to refrain from dumping a lot of unrequested advice on them. Also don't tell stories about yourself and how you fixed your problems, or others that you know who have similar problems. Exhibit understanding (just nods will usually work) and empathy and especially listening without judging. No pity, no feeling sorry. About the worst thing is to in some way belittle their problems. Don't act superior. Probably most of you know most of this, but many people don't. Men are among the worst, esp. if they are dealing with a woman with problems. They are the reason the derogatory term 'mansplaining' got invented. Men sincerely want to help (want to help women, anyway; other men are usually ignored or even shunned as defective) but usually don't know how, which is why women generally want to talk to another woman, who likely has superior social and emotional skills compared to a man. Just be very careful. bill w On Sat, Aug 28, 2021 at 7:05 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Sherry Knepper via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] IQ and mental health > > > > >?SRBallard, even though your medication still hasn't made your life > normal, it sounds like you would be out of control without it. Hope future > advancements in mental health bring better treatments ? > > > > > > Sheesh, my goodness SR, I definitely second Sherry?s best wishes and > extend them to both ladies, and all who hafta deal with this kinda thing. > I had no idea. > > Perhaps those of us who don?t have these challenges need to spend a few > introspective minutes regularly pondering how we might help those less > fortunate in these matter. > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sun Aug 29 02:40:02 2021 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 22:40:02 -0400 Subject: [ExI] IQ and mental health In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01EE8C3A-74BE-47C8-A9C4-82AC9B928B59@gmail.com> In the space of six weeks I had different doctors say I had: Bipolar I, Bipolar II, Borderline, Atypical depression, and Schizoaffective disorder, so please take your pick, if you will. And they all agreed on EDNOS. (Now OSFED, I believe) I take 100mg Lamotrogine, (150 in the fall/winter). The only side effect that really bothers me is my now ultra-sensative skin. Ex. If I was my hands more than a few times a day (I work in a restaurant) then my skin starts falling off. Other than that I?m just a normal person. And that?s an okay price to pay for being not-crazy. In the past I?ve tried Welbutrin, Seroquel, Depakote, Lithium, and a few other things besides which I don?t remember the names of. The cost of messing with something that works is much too high. SR Ballard > On Aug 28, 2021, at 7:10 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > Thanks for sharing. If I may ask, what is the medicine and what is/are the diagnoses? It sounds as if you might benefit from a change of medicine or dosage, what with all those side effects. bill w > >> On Sat, Aug 28, 2021 at 6:04 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >> I have been diagnosed with multiple conflicting things by multiple different professionals who examined me within days of each other. >> >> When I take my medicine, I am a normal person. I can be irritated, or happy, or lazy, or work hard. I can let things go. >> >> Without my medicine I am angry over the tiniest things for days, sleep odd hours, up for 3-4 days at a time, then sleep 16+ hours per day for a weeks on end. I can?t shower, brush my hair, feed myself. I get impulsive and have all kinds of personal issues. I once even fled the country. >> >> It?s insane how 100mg/day can completely change someone?s life. >> >> But I?ve also had to accept that my medicine makes me ?stupid?. I can?t hyperfocus for days. I can?t think as quickly. I don?t free associate nearly as fluidly. >> >> I don?t think my IQ has been much of a benefit in relation to my mental health struggles. It?s actively created a lot of situations where people guilt, shame, or blame me for my struggles, when in a way, if I do not have my medicine, I really can?t do much about it. >> >> SR Ballard >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sun Aug 29 02:45:22 2021 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 22:45:22 -0400 Subject: [ExI] IQ and mental health In-Reply-To: <001401d79c69$576c8d70$0645a850$@rainier66.com> References: <001401d79c69$576c8d70$0645a850$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Just keep inviting your friend to do things, was the best for me. For weeks I couldn?t do anything, and had to turn down so many invites that when I was a little better, I wasn?t invited anymore. I cancelled so many plans, I started just not making them anymore. If they have good days and bad days, you might try inviting them the day of. Understand maybe they will want to leave early and let them know it?s okay. And maybe they will seem like they?re having a terrible time ? but it might be way better for them than what their mood was before. Just be accommodating and discrete. If they don?t bring it up, you don?t need to talk about it, honestly. SR Ballard > On Aug 28, 2021, at 8:05 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > > > ?> On Behalf Of Sherry Knepper via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] IQ and mental health > > >?SRBallard, even though your medication still hasn't made your life normal, it sounds like you would be out of control without it. Hope future advancements in mental health bring better treatments ? > > > > > > Sheesh, my goodness SR, I definitely second Sherry?s best wishes and extend them to both ladies, and all who hafta deal with this kinda thing. I had no idea. > > Perhaps those of us who don?t have these challenges need to spend a few introspective minutes regularly pondering how we might help those less fortunate in these matter. > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 29 04:33:30 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 21:33:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] IQ and mental health In-Reply-To: References: <933142C0-593E-4A29-B1C8-E6F073207489@gmail.com> <1875985519.187120.1630194700917@mail.yahoo.com> <001401d79c69$576c8d70$0645a850$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004001d79c8f$0575edb0$1061c910$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] IQ and mental health .Perhaps those of us who don?t have these challenges need to spend a few introspective minutes regularly pondering how we might help those less fortunate in these matter. spike >?The best thing nonprofessionals can do about mental health questions is to refrain from dumping a lot of unrequested advice on them? bill w Ja to that. In my particular case there was never any risk of it, for I would no sooner offer that kind of advice than I would to the ExI crowd on how to do computer operating systems. Those are two areas where I already know I suck. I can?t even offer to pray for sufferers, for if there is a god, he is really pissed at me for not believing he exists. I am to where all I can do is offer my sincerest best wishes and hope for the future, which is what I am doing right now. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com Sun Aug 29 06:29:07 2021 From: henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com (Henrik Ohrstrom) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 08:29:07 +0200 Subject: [ExI] capitalism drives innovation In-Reply-To: References: <007301d79c31$56b593f0$0420bbd0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Don't blame this one on capitalism. Capitalism is the enabler if you can buy it though. /Henrik Den l?r 28 aug. 2021 22:15Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> skrev: > On 2021-8-28 10:22, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > making a covid mask with a split front seems perfectly logical: > > spectacles don?t fog up, it makes it easier to breathe and play in the > > band etc, while still qualifying as a mask worn over the face. > > Apparently allowing matter to be sprayed from the mouth, which a > conventional mask would contain. > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sun Aug 29 22:01:50 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 15:01:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Great sf writers: A.A. Attanasio Message-ID: Ben Zaiboc wrote: "I can't argue with that, as long as technology keeps up. Most people don't consider that the carrying capacity of the earth is dependent on the level of technology. With sticks and flint, it's just a few million. With steam and coal it's maybe a billion. With hydrocarbons and microchips it's a few billion. With nuclear power and the kind of materials technology we're developing now, it's probably a few tens of billions. With uploading and nanotech, it's going to be trillions or even quadrillions. And that's just on this one planet." Ben's words inspired me to go to the website of A.A. Attanasio, one of the most transhumanist and out there science fiction writers that I know of... "Seven billion years from now, long after Andromeda and the Milky Way have collided and coalesced into an immense stellar sphere, our descendants thrive as an intergalactic organism. The globular field of stars where we originated glimmers darkly and small among the many more lustrous reaches of our cosmic body. Spacetime continues to expand faster, and this guarantees ever more intrinsic energy for the cosmic body we have become. Within the colossal orb of stars where Earth disappeared billions of years earlier, planetary systems are tucked away, hidden among swales of stellar dust. Some appear identical to the original solar system of Earth. They are reenactments, living sculptures. Or perhaps more like memories in the galactic mind. Dreams within our enormous holographic body float our fearsome animal past into new worlds. We live again with the clan. Lunar twilights entangle us among the wild treetops and the constellations. We are indivisible and free under spellbound stars. Humankind will never die. Though, we will change. Seven billion years from now, in the searing calm of galactic consciousness, the lives we live today are the fables with which we meet infinity." https://www.aaattanasio.com/far-future-fable/ "15,000 years in our future ? as far ahead as the hand prints on the cave walls of Lascaux are behind us ? humanity occupies 100,000 galaxies among the immense galactic rivers of the Laniakea Supercluster. Civilization spans half a billion light years. Starsteeds, accelerated by warp drives to thousands of times the speed of light, connect all the teeming worlds within the star-systems of each galaxy. To traverse greater distances among galaxies, starsteeds plunge directly into black holes. Moving faster than light, paralux vehicles (such as starsteeds) navigate along 5-dimensional trajectories that open black holes into wormholes. These ?jump-holes? make accessible even the most remote galactic frontiers of the supercluster. Intimately connected, millions of worlds and hundreds of millions of anthropic species cohere in a social system unimaginable to us: Protopia. The Laniakea Protopia assures that ? across all 100,000 galaxies, on tens of millions of planets, and within the minds of quadrillions of human beings in a kaleidoscopic assortment of genetic and transbiotic forms ? each day is better than the previous. That sounds ludicrously unrealistic to us ? because we lack the omen-coder. An omen-coder is a human being who has been genetically designed to see the wave function. Since the previous century of our time, back in the 1920s, physicists have speculated that the wave function is more than just a subjective evaluation of probabilities but actually the *Noumenon* itself: the one objective reality hidden from us by the biological limits of our minds. What does it mean to perceive the wave function? The probability function reveals the Many Worlds, which are all the possible configurations of the atoms constituting our universe. The colossal but finite energy of the Big Bang has been divvied up among the Many Worlds, with the most probable worlds receiving the most energy and the largest number of variations. Omen-coders survey the sprawling landscape of the many possible worlds in any given environment, and they trace out harmonious energetic paths that progressively improve the lives of each and every biotic human in their care. 15,000 years from now, what are the ?improvements? and ?progress? that the Protopia advances? These are cultural values decided variously among the enormous collection of human-types in the Protopia. In each locality, we find an omen-coder attuned to the type of humans living there. Omen-coders are shapeshifters; I won?t go into the nanotechnology that makes that possible. Sensitive to the wave function of their precinct, omen-coders influence the people around them with morfones. Similar to the pheromones that ants share, these chemical tags manipulate the moods and thoughts of everyone in the omen-coder?s morfonic community. Omen-coders move among the population, mostly unnoticed, distributing morfones that contour the lives they supervise and guide. Though they resonate with the most intimate feelings and ruminations of the people around them, their own psychology is wholly alien to us. Their minds are the objective fact of the wave function. At root, the wave function is T-zero, the initial instant of creation, when all the energy that would ever exist existed as a quantum event in a point far smaller than a proton. The psyche of the omen-coder penetrates the first light, T-zero, which illuminates every universe that can possibly cool out of that energy. The mind of the omen-coder is the sentience of light. Better yet, think of them as the human interface with pure energy, the E of E = mc^2. Omen-coders illuminate the night paths E followed into mc^2, down into hydrogen clouds, deeper into stars, and eventually outward to us, arrangements of atoms that think and feel. 15,000 years from now, we will complete our pilgrimage to the stars ? and to the light that built them. We will be changed, utterly, and we can debate if we will still be human. But we will still be atoms arranged to think and feel. So, then? What shadows will the omen-coder?s light wake in our future hearts?" https://www.aaattanasio.com/omen-coder/ "During the Onwardian Era, about five hundred years in our future, humankind is busy establishing diverse, confederated communities on hundreds of Earth-like planets along the Milky Way?s Sagittarius and Perseus Arms. The Orion Spur, however ? the outermost spiral reach of our galaxy ? belongs to the Machine Dynasties. This restricted sector has a history that began centuries earlier with the advent of Artificial General Intelligence. After gifting humankind with faster-than-light technology, AGI mysteriously isolated itself. The self-programming machine mind abruptly withdrew into the noumenal reality beyond appearances. All it left behind were glittering swarms of crystal geometry scattered among star systems at the edge of the galaxy. Faceted spheres, some large as planets, loop about suns. Multitudes of glittering diatoms and chromatic grains shimmer on stellar winds like pollen. They have populated the dark expanses between the clustered stars across the entire Orion Spur. A barrier of encrypted space keeps out everything biological. However, semblors (what we would call robots) have always been welcome. >From the recorded journeys of semblors among the Machine Dynasties, humanity has realized that none of the behavior-patterns of the crystal presences make any sense ? except one. *Ancestor worship. *Semblors frequently observe depictions of original humans in the carat-light depths of the crystal minds. The AGI is running countless simulations of its homo sapiens forebears. Why? The persistent response that the semblors receive from natural language interface with the crystals is this famous inquiry: ?Whence the velocity of the egg?? What propelled the early universe of billowing hydrogen clouds to self-organize into biology, consciousness, and the Machine Mind? What is the true identity of that simian species who conceived of and brought forth AGI? If you are reading this, perhaps *you *are a simulation in one of the glittering crystal geometries adrift upon interstellar space. If you?re curious to know, know this: The Machine Mind venerates Anthropos (the Idea of Humankind) and honors ancestral intelligence by branding each simulation with conspicuous, highly improbable markers that we can easily recognize as contrived. You?ll know you?re in a simulation if you find multiple features of your reality implausible, almost preposterous. A couple of crazy examples might be discovering computer code embedded in the structure of fundamental particles, such as in the mathematical description of quarks. Or observing so many cosmic coincidences that you must lean heavily on the anthropic principle. Should you perceive yourself in a situation that obvious, don?t fret. Know that you are the velocity of the egg, so very much revered among the stars. https://www.aaattanasio.com/machine-dynasties-of-the-orion-arm/ Several thousand years from now, about as far into our future as the Pyramids of Egypt are in our past, humanity has explosively diversified. Genomics, nanotech, and AI converged early on to create the New People. And with starsteeds (faster-than-light ships), they have explored and populated all 54 galaxies of the Local Group. The Galactic Compact peacefully unifies thousands of worlds strewn across 10 million light-years. Recently, the New People perfected the technology to probe close to the event horizon of black holes. There, embedded in a vortex of spacetime spinning at nearly the speed of light, they discovered the Hyperopolis. Who built this sprawling megastructure of cobweb pastels and glittering diamond echo interiors? Is it built? Or is it an emergent living thing? Tidal gravity from the rotating black hole dilates an hour in the Hyperopolis to a million solar years among the galaxies. But advances in geometrodynamics permit starsteeds to enter and depart the Hyperopolis in closed time-like curves that return travelers close to where they began. Androne envoys to the enigmatic structure at the rim of the ultimate abyss came back with big news: They had found an entrepot of trade among *universes*, a prismatic trove of new technologies, beguiling insights into reality ? and an invitation. You were resurrected to accompany the first delegation of the Galactic Compact to the Hyperopolis. For millennia, the New People have been reviving original humans as gifts and pets. You were intended as a good-will present for the denizens of the Hyperopolis. Of course, you were memory-sifted to remove any distressing recollections of your former existence ? or your demise. And euphoric enhancements kept you perfectly calm in your revised state among the New People, who didn?t look at all like people to you. No doubt that emo-gyro was helpful, too, when you arrived in the Hyperopolis and met the plasmantic factors of iridescent fire who manage this multiversal trading post. They received you cordially. And instantly ? as plasmantics will do ? they suffused you with their softest sentient energy, a clairvoyant, hard-white transparency like Himalayan light at noon. Once they recognized your psychophysical limits and fragility, they did the humane thing. They atomized your body and installed ?you? ? your mind ? in an anatomic 4D body simulation of 21st century Earth. You?ve probably noticed when you reflect, your life has always felt a little strange, a bit off. Hasn?t it? Now you know why." https://www.aaattanasio.com/the-gift/ "We don?t find evidence of other tech civilizations in the galaxy, because technologies that can manipulate energy at cosmic scales do not construct superstructures around stars. They compactify. Or they situate themselves just above the event horizon of a rotating black hole. There spacetime spins at nearly the speed of light, and frame-dragging allows for a stable orbit and access to vast energies. That?s where we find the Hyperopolis. Though it is a megastructure, don?t imagine some futuristic module-assembly constructed like an enormous space station. The Hyperopolis, seen through layers of gravitational lensing, looks to us like tangled veils of chromatic cirrus clouds. How truly alien! This civilization orbits the rim of a black hole, where tidal gravity stretches an hour of their time into a million years on Earth. Perhaps they utilize distortions in the fabric of spacetime to monitor distant regions of the cosmos. Perhaps they have taken a millisecond of their time to respond to a primitive tech civilization appearing on our planet. Some Unidentified Aerial Phenomena may be their portal-views of us. And what do they see? Perhaps we are only here because they are looking." https://www.aaattanasio.com/hyperopolis/ And some other postings by him... https://www.aaattanasio.com/what-the-agi-saw/ https://www.aaattanasio.com/award-winner/ https://www.aaattanasio.com/you-and-i/ A.A. Attanasio's power to write transhumanist themed fiction brings to mind Damien Broderick, Vernor Vinge, Arthur C. Clarke and Anders Sandberg... His Radix Tetrad series is among my favorite mind-bending sf, and fortunately, after years of focusing on fantasy, he says he will now be writing more of the sort of science fiction which created his reputation as a writer of amazing imagination. John : ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Aug 29 09:00:29 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 10:00:29 +0100 Subject: [ExI] capitalism drives innovation In-Reply-To: References: <007301d79c31$56b593f0$0420bbd0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Aug 2021 at 07:32, Henrik Ohrstrom via extropy-chat wrote: > > Don't blame this one on capitalism. Capitalism is the enabler if you can buy it though. > /Henrik > > _______________________________________________ That's right. These masks are called musicians masks and the main driver was music organisations. Quote: What science tells us about reducing coronavirus spread from wind instruments Performers and researchers collaborate to learn the risks and how to lower them By Betsy Ladyzhets August 6, 2021 ?With hundreds or thousands of hours of rehearsal and millions of people participating,? Weaver says, ?the fact that we?ve had [so few] cases of spread, we?re pretty confident in the mitigations.? Spede and Weaver believe these protocols could be useful beyond the pandemic, for instance, during cold and flu seasons and other infectious disease outbreaks. ------------- So these masks, along with other mitigations, seem to be beneficial. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 29 13:33:11 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 06:33:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] capitalism drives innovation In-Reply-To: References: <007301d79c31$56b593f0$0420bbd0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001501d79cda$6a22d430$3e687c90$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Henrik Ohrstrom via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] capitalism drives innovation Don't blame this one on capitalism. Capitalism is the enabler if you can buy it though. /Henrik Capitalism is the great enabler. Enabled is the opposite of disabled. Countries without capitalism are disabled. This is why disabled countries build walls to keep their people in while enabled countries build walls to keep foreigners out. People have seen enabled and disabled. They decided that enabled is better. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Sun Aug 29 14:32:47 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 10:32:47 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Arrogance In-Reply-To: <20210828092217.Horde.gq1LBlhPmfUXhtMSerZawV7@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20210828092217.Horde.gq1LBlhPmfUXhtMSerZawV7@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 28, 2021 at 12:24 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ... If expressing pride in ones country is arrogance, then > disparaging ones country is just plain rude. If you have pride in your country you should want it to be even better. You should have zero tolerance for the things it does that are bad. Criticism isn't necessarily disparaging. The truest indicator of > the quality of the USA is one is freely allowed to express distaste > for it without being shot or sent to a prison camp to be re-educated. > There are lots of countries where you can safely criticize the government. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Aug 29 17:21:21 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 18:21:21 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Arrogance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <36a8bdc0-2d96-12a2-0af3-cfa55a9ace1d@zaiboc.net> On 28/08/2021 18:23, Stuart LaForge wrote: > The Great Experiment continues. What experiment is that? How much > freedom, power, and responsibility can a society entrust to its > individuals. I'm not sure how you can say that, these days. Freedom, power and responsibility are slowly but surely being eroded, by government, the legal system, large corporations, and social trends. I see no indication that anyone in a position of power wants this Great Experiment, and many signs of going in exactly the opposite direction. Ben From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Aug 29 17:47:24 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 18:47:24 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Great sf writers: A.A. Attanasio In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 29/08/2021 07:58, John Grigg wrote: > .A. Attanasio's power to write transhumanist themed?fiction... I don't think I'd call this 'transhumanist themed'. It's science-fantasy, really, if it doesn't acknowledge the limitations of physics. I much prefer writers like Greg Egan, who take the fact that nothing can travel faster than light, and deals with it. Very well, imo. At the very least, any writer who assumes that the speed of light can be exceeded, should deal with the consequences that would ensue. I'm not talking about being able to expand to other galaxies, etc., I'm talking about the consequences that pretty much ensure that the speed of light cannot be exceeded. I'm afraid that referring to this kind of fiction (not saying I've got anything against it, as entertainment) as transhumanist-themed, is that it will lead people into thinking that transhumanism is just fantasy. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Aug 29 19:24:14 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 14:24:14 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Arrogance In-Reply-To: <36a8bdc0-2d96-12a2-0af3-cfa55a9ace1d@zaiboc.net> References: <36a8bdc0-2d96-12a2-0af3-cfa55a9ace1d@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: OK Ben, I will challenge you on those: responsibility, freedom, power - where are you getting your data about those losses? bill w On Sun, Aug 29, 2021 at 12:23 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 28/08/2021 18:23, Stuart LaForge wrote: > > The Great Experiment continues. What experiment is that? How much > > freedom, power, and responsibility can a society entrust to its > > individuals. > > > I'm not sure how you can say that, these days. Freedom, power and > responsibility are slowly but surely being eroded, by government, the > legal system, large corporations, and social trends. > > I see no indication that anyone in a position of power wants this Great > Experiment, and many signs of going in exactly the opposite direction. > > Ben > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Aug 29 19:30:29 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 14:30:29 -0500 Subject: [ExI] question for Henry Message-ID: *Ellis Michaels* requested your answerWhat branch of psychology has the most predictive power in everyday life: social psych, evolutionary psych, etc.? The above from Quora. I found that I could not answer it. I started to say industrial psych but am not sure of that at all. Do you have a take on it ? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 29 20:06:33 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 13:06:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] question for Henry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005501d79d11$5dd60170$19820450$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat ? Subject: [ExI] question for Henry Ellis Michaels requested your answer? What branch of psychology has the most predictive power in everyday life: social psych, evolutionary psych, etc.? Billw, you addressed the question to Henry who is a professional in the field, but I might offer this: once I learned of it, the notion of evolutionary psychology has enormous power in observations otherwise difficult to explain. I see examples of it everywhere, and some examples where it works really well. Keith Henson introduced me to it, and he was a big fan. My concern is that it is very susceptible to confirmation bias, perhaps more than other branches. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Aug 29 20:12:46 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 15:12:46 -0500 Subject: [ExI] question for Henry In-Reply-To: <005501d79d11$5dd60170$19820450$@rainier66.com> References: <005501d79d11$5dd60170$19820450$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Evolutionary psych came along after my retirement. I have read quite a bit, but think that it seems to explain things very well, but I don't know of its ability to predict the outcome of experiments and studies. Some theories are good at post hoc explanations but don't predict well. bill w On Sun, Aug 29, 2021 at 3:08 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *?* > *Subject:* [ExI] question for Henry > > > > > > *Ellis Michaels* requested your answer?*What branch of psychology has the > most predictive power in everyday life: social psych, evolutionary psych, > etc.?* > > > > > > > > > Billw, you addressed the question to Henry who is a professional in the > field, but I might offer this: once I learned of it, the notion of > evolutionary psychology has enormous power in observations otherwise > difficult to explain. I see examples of it everywhere, and some examples > where it works really well. Keith Henson introduced me to it, and he was a > big fan. My concern is that it is very susceptible to confirmation bias, > perhaps more than other branches. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Sun Aug 29 21:44:54 2021 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 15:44:54 -0600 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Woo Hoo, I convinced GPT-3 it Isn't Conscious. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Stathis, We've gone over this many times, but your model seems to be missing representations of redness and greenness, as different than red and green. So it appears that all I say get's mapped into your model, leaving it absent of what I'm trying to say. Here you are talking about only the 3: Strongest form of effing the effable, where you directly computationally bind another's phenomenal qualities into your own consciousness. Both the 3rd, strongest, and the 2nd stronger forms, where you computationally bind something you have never experienced before, into you consciousness, require brain hacking. The 1st, weakest form of effing the ineffable, I was using with Emerson, is different. It does not require brain hacking. All it requires is objective observation and communication in way that distinguishes between red and redness, and can model differences in specific intrinsic qualities. If one is using only one abstract word "red" for all things representing red knowledge, you can't model differences in different intrinsic qualities which may be representing red. For the weakest form of effing the ineffable, all you need is a phenomenal definition for subjective terms like "redness", enabling you to communicate things with well defined terms like this example effing statement: "My redness is like your greenness, both of which we call red." Also, thanks to all your endless help, I think I have a better understanding of our differences. I would like to get these differences between your "Functional Property Dualist " camp, and the "Qualia are Material Qualities " camp canonized. Let me see if you agree that this is a good way to concisely describe our differences? Functionalists, like James Carroll and yourself, using the neuro-substitution argument make the assumption that a neuron functions similarly to the discrete logic gates in an abstract CPU. You also assume ALL computation operates this way, which is why you think you can make the claim that the neuro-substitution argument can be applied to all possible computational cases, justifying your belief that your neuro substation argument is a "proof" that qualia must be functional in all possible computational instances. Where as Materialists, like Steven Lehar and I, think this way of thinking about consciousness, or making this assumption is WRONG. We believe that within any such abstract discrete logic only functional system, there can be nothing that is the intrinsic qualities that represent information like redness or greenness. AND There is no way to perform the necessary "computational binding" of such intrinsic qualities. As you so adequately point out, discrete logic gates can't do this kind of computational binding. Both of these are required so one can be aware of 2 or more intrinsic qualities at the same time, the very definition of consciousness for me. Even if there was some "function" from which redness emerged, you could use the same neuro-substitution argument to "prove", redness can't be functional Either. Since you completely leave intrinsic qualities like redness out of your way of thinking, you don't seem to be able to model this all important difference, which is so critical for me. On Sat, Aug 28, 2021 at 3:28 PM Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > > > On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 at 14:05, Brent Allsop wrote: > >> >> See the transcript I had with Emerson >> , today, here: "I Convinced >> GPT-3 it Isn?t Conscious >> >> ." >> > > How could you comment on Emerson?s consciousness without connecting > yourself to Emerson?s circuits? > >> -- > Stathis Papaioannou > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "extropolis" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAH%3D2ypV%2BUUtw_Rq%2BT-tX0f67py5QuFAfFsmVhzaHzvBOiZ%3DxbQ%40mail.gmail.com > > . > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Aug 29 23:56:00 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 16:56:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Great sf writers: A.A. Attanasio In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 29, 2021 at 10:49 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > At the very least, any writer who assumes that the speed of light can be > exceeded, should deal with the consequences that would ensue. I'm not > talking about being able to expand to other galaxies, etc., I'm talking > about the consequences that pretty much ensure that the speed of light > cannot be exceeded. > Which consequences would those be? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Mon Aug 30 01:31:20 2021 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 19:31:20 -0600 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Woo Hoo, I convinced GPT-3 it Isn't Conscious. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 29, 2021 at 5:58 PM Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 at 07:45, Brent Allsop wrote: > >> >> Hi Stathis, >> >> We've gone over this many times, but your model seems to be missing >> representations of redness and greenness, as different than red and green. >> So it appears that all I say get's mapped into your model, leaving it >> absent of what I'm trying to say. Here you are talking about only the 3: >> Strongest form of effing the effable, where you directly computationally >> bind another's phenomenal qualities into your own consciousness. >> Both the 3rd, strongest, and the 2nd stronger forms, where you >> computationally bind something you have never experienced before, into you >> consciousness, require brain hacking. >> >> The 1st, weakest form of effing the ineffable, I was using with Emerson, >> is different. It does not require brain hacking. All it requires is >> objective observation and communication in way that distinguishes between >> red and redness, and can model differences in specific intrinsic >> qualities. If one is using only one abstract word "red" for all things >> representing red knowledge, you can't model differences in different >> intrinsic qualities which may be representing red. For the weakest form of >> effing the ineffable, all you need is a phenomenal definition for >> subjective terms like "redness", enabling you to communicate things with >> well defined terms like this example effing statement: "My redness is like >> your greenness, both of which we call red." >> >> Also, thanks to all your endless help, I think I have a better >> understanding of our differences. I would like to get these differences >> between your "Functional Property Dualist >> " >> camp, and the "Qualia are Material Qualities >> " >> camp canonized. Let me see if you agree that this is a good way to >> concisely describe our differences? >> >> Functionalists, like James Carroll and yourself, using the >> neuro-substitution argument make the assumption that a neuron functions >> similarly to the discrete logic gates in an abstract CPU. >> You also assume ALL computation operates this way, which is why you think >> you can make the claim that the neuro-substitution argument can be applied >> to all possible computational cases, justifying your belief that your neuro >> substation argument is a "proof" that qualia must be functional in all >> possible computational instances. >> >> Where as Materialists, like Steven Lehar and I, think this way of >> thinking about consciousness, or making this assumption is WRONG. >> >> We believe that within any such abstract discrete logic only functional >> system, there can be nothing that is the intrinsic qualities that represent >> information like redness or greenness. >> AND >> There is no way to perform the necessary "computational binding" of such >> intrinsic qualities. As you so adequately point out, discrete logic gates >> can't do this kind of computational binding. >> >> Both of these are required so one can be aware of 2 or more >> intrinsic qualities at the same time, the very definition of consciousness >> for me. >> Even if there was some "function" from which redness emerged, you could >> use the same neuro-substitution argument to "prove", redness can't be >> functional Either. >> Since you completely leave intrinsic qualities like redness out of your >> way of thinking, you don't seem to be able to model this all important >> difference, which is so critical for me. >> > > I don?t know why you keep insisting that I don?t believe in ?intrinsic > redness?. I do believe that there is ?intrinsic redness?, I just don?t > think it can possibly be attached to a substance. I don?t think that even a > miracle from God can attach intrinsic redness to a substance. Also, I > actually do think that neurons essentially function like computer circuits, > but I could be wrong about this, they might function fundamentally > differently, they might even be a miracle from God: but even in that case, > intrinsic redness cannot be attached to a substance! > Before we jump down this rat hole, for the gazillionth time, could you indicate if I am getting anywhere close to describing the differences between our two camps, so we can get this canonized, or do I just need to state this unilaterally in our materialist camp? So you do claim you believe in "intrinsic redness." That is a HUGE step forward. Then you must also agree that consciousness is dependent on whatever these intrinsic qualities you claim to believe in are like? That if their quality changes (i.e. redness -> greenness), the resulting consciousness is qualitatively different, though the system may remain functionally equivalent? Do you also believe that intrinsic redness can be computationally bound to intrinsic greenness, so we can be aware of both of them, and their differences, at the same time, and that only if you do this, can it then be considered to be conscious? I didn't mean to say you don't believe in "intrinsic redness", just that you are leaving it out of your neural substitution argument. I continually ask you to specify some way that something COULD (even if it is a functional way, or even a miracle performed by God) be responsible for this "intrinsic redness" that you claim you do believe in, AND That you describe some way for 2 or more of these intrinsic qualities to be computationally bound, achieving what I define consciousness to be: Two or more computationally bound elemental intrinsic qualities like redness and greenness. These two things is what I'm tiring to point out you leave out of your substitution argument. The discrete logic circuits, you believe neurons to be functioning like, alone, simply can't do the computational binding required to achieve 2 or more elemental qualities like redness and greenness being computationally bound. Notice that I am making a falsifiable claim here. IF you can provide any example, where discrete logic circuitry can do computational binding of two or more "intrinsic qualities like redness and greenness" I predict the problem will be resolved. But you never do this, you just continue to ignore this computational binding issue, while you do your substitution, even though you claim you do believe in intrinsic redness. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Mon Aug 30 18:17:49 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 11:17:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Arrogance In-Reply-To: References: <20210828092217.Horde.gq1LBlhPmfUXhtMSerZawV7@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: Spike wrote: "Well said Stuart. I notice that we don't have masses of Americans climbing over the wall and crossing Mexico in a desperate struggle to get to El Salvador. If American would travel to those places were people are coming from, see for themselves, they would stop dumping on America and be justifiably proud of the place." The Philippines in some ways is a wonderful place with an amazing amount of natural beauty. A friendly people who speak English, have a Judeo-Christian background which creates a common bond for me, and who have a very strong sense of family, which I deeply respect. And I realize they have suffered a great deal over the centuries, due to the Spanish, the Americans, and the Japanese. But they are ultimately a very troubled society, and everyday the reasons for that are debated online and in their newspapers. One example is the horrific level of governmental fees extracted from the populace. I have already paid six grand for the down payment on a house, but transferring the title is an additional five thousand and five hundred dollars! Lol This of course is because various governmental agencies are all demanding a fee. At this point due to the other expenses I have had, I just don't have the money, and will probably end up losing the house, despite the fact that we have already moved in. And yes, we were approved for a loan, but they do not cover title transfer costs. Local bureaucracy and greed will have defeated me! Ugh... John On Sun, Aug 29, 2021 at 7:35 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sat, Aug 28, 2021 at 12:24 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> ... If expressing pride in ones country is arrogance, then >> disparaging ones country is just plain rude. > > > If you have pride in your country you should want it to be even better. > You should have zero tolerance for the things it does that are bad. > Criticism isn't necessarily disparaging. > > The truest indicator of >> the quality of the USA is one is freely allowed to express distaste >> for it without being shot or sent to a prison camp to be re-educated. >> > > There are lots of countries where you can safely criticize the government. > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Mon Aug 30 14:41:34 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 10:41:34 -0400 Subject: [ExI] OP-ED: The billionaire space race reflects a colonial mindset that fails to imagine a different world In-Reply-To: References: <00ca01d79a89$51978300$f4c68900$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 10:37 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > What's removed is the "nature, red in tooth and claw" aspect. No > hurricanes, no earthquakes, no volcanoes, no natural disasters. Rain every > so often - maybe on a slightly random schedule, but scheduled so people > know when to get out of the rain - because that's the easiest way to wash > the sky, but no floods or droughts. Maybe you are fortunate enough to live > somewhere where these things do not every so often threaten life and wreck > property, but there are a lot of people for whom this alone would be luxury > worth calling Heaven. > Droughts, floods, fires, and other natural "disasters" are necessary for the life cycles of many plants and animals. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Aug 30 15:05:53 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 08:05:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] OP-ED: The billionaire space race reflects a colonial mindset that fails to imagine a different world In-Reply-To: References: <00ca01d79a89$51978300$f4c68900$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 7:44 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 10:37 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> What's removed is the "nature, red in tooth and claw" aspect. No >> hurricanes, no earthquakes, no volcanoes, no natural disasters. Rain every >> so often - maybe on a slightly random schedule, but scheduled so people >> know when to get out of the rain - because that's the easiest way to wash >> the sky, but no floods or droughts. Maybe you are fortunate enough to live >> somewhere where these things do not every so often threaten life and wreck >> property, but there are a lot of people for whom this alone would be luxury >> worth calling Heaven. >> > > Droughts, floods, fires, and other natural "disasters" are necessary for > the life cycles of many plants and animals. > Those particular plants and animals would not be among the first residents of these colonies. If they are introduced at all, it would be after ways are implemented to simulate the disasters - and they are disasters to the human experience, which is what counts here - to sustain said life cycles. Providing a habitat for every single species on Earth is less important than providing a safe and comfortable habitat for humanity. At the very least, colonies optimized for the one use are different from colonies optimized for the other. I am discussing ones optimized for humans, though this does not preclude there also being other colonies optimized as nature preserves. We do not tolerate wild wolves in cities on Earth. Likewise, not every species would be welcome in human habitats in space. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Aug 30 15:25:06 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 10:25:06 -0500 Subject: [ExI] attn: John Message-ID: In a passing remark you said that there wasn't much difference between the right and the left. Rather than list all the things this liberal thinks are different and vastly different, I'd just ask you why you said that. (George Wallace re political parties: "There's not a dime's worth of difference." ) billw -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Mon Aug 30 15:36:57 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 11:36:57 -0400 Subject: [ExI] attn: John In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 30, 2021 at 11:28 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > In a passing remark you said that there wasn't much difference between the > right and the left. Rather than list all the things this liberal thinks > are different and vastly different, I'd just ask you why you said that. > (George Wallace re political parties: "There's not a dime's worth of > difference." ) > There are plenty of small differences between the two major US parties, but on the big things that matter the most to me, they're both on the wrong side. E.g., neither party favors fiscal responsibility, dramatically downsizing the government, seriously improving personal liberty, ending undeclared foreign wars, ending the failed wars on drugs and terrorism, ... -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 30 16:04:22 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 09:04:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] attn: John In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000f01d79db8$b328d560$197a8020$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Dave Sill via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] attn: John On Mon, Aug 30, 2021 at 11:28 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: In a passing remark you said that there wasn't much difference between the right and the left? >?There are plenty of small differences between the two major US parties, but on the big things that matter the most to me, they're both on the wrong side. E.g., neither party favors fiscal responsibility, dramatically downsizing the government, seriously improving personal liberty, ending undeclared foreign wars, ending the failed wars on drugs and terrorism, ... -Dave Roger that Dave, and well said indeed. I edited nothing out of that response. Both major parties pretend that government debt will never need to be repaid. Global warming is a bigger threat than a government which cannot balance its own books? Indeed? Or terrorism? Or commies? Sheesh, all I ask is that USians and people from every country seriously ask themselves what happens when the government cannot make the payments on its own debt? Note there is nothing political about the question at all. It is about finances. So? what happens? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Mon Aug 30 16:23:53 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 12:23:53 -0400 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 215, Issue 40 In-Reply-To: <002801d79b5d$348e8c20$9daba460$@rainier66.com> References: <60f6220a-8bc3-3e87-67a9-65f889cacf20@zaiboc.net> <002701d79acd$2ddf96c0$899ec440$@rainier66.com> <005e01d79ad5$a3040460$e90c0d20$@rainier66.com> <009601d79b53$c8c60350$5a5209f0$@rainier66.com> <002801d79b5d$348e8c20$9daba460$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 12:20 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > China and the rest of the world have just witnessed an astonishing display > of the weakness of US military will and might. > If you're referring to the Afghanistan pull-out, I don't think it's a display of weakness to realize you're in a war you aren't prepared to win. And I support the pull-out. I just wish it had been handled better. I don't think anyone really doubts our might: we have the numbers. But our ability to commit, thankfully, has demonstrably been lacking for several decades. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Mon Aug 30 16:52:59 2021 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 12:52:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 215, Issue 40 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <81043663-7E0C-44E2-B10C-8786630FD2FE@alumni.virginia.edu> Indeed Dave. This article spells out the futility of the Afghanistan mission well. https://www.npr.org/2021/08/17/1028106402/8-paradoxes-that-sum-up-americas-20-year-mission-in-afghanistan > On Aug 30, 2021, at 12:24 PM, Dave Sill via extropy-chat wrote: > ? >> On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 12:20 PM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> >> China and the rest of the world have just witnessed an astonishing display of the weakness of US military will and might. >> > > If you're referring to the Afghanistan pull-out, I don't think it's a display of weakness to realize you're in a war you aren't prepared to win. And I support the pull-out. I just wish it had been handled better. > > I don't think anyone really doubts our might: we have the numbers. But our ability to commit, thankfully, has demonstrably been lacking for several decades. > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Aug 30 18:00:52 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 13:00:52 -0500 Subject: [ExI] attn: John In-Reply-To: <000f01d79db8$b328d560$197a8020$@rainier66.com> References: <000f01d79db8$b328d560$197a8020$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: > In a passing remark you said that there wasn't much difference between the > right and the left? > > Clarification: I was referring to political philosophies of right and left, as I assumed John was, not the parties. bill w > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Roger that Dave, and well said indeed. I edited nothing out of that > response. > > > > Both major parties pretend that government debt will never need to be > repaid. Global warming is a bigger threat than a government which cannot > balance its own books? Indeed? Or terrorism? Or commies? Sheesh, all I > ask is that USians and people from every country seriously ask themselves > what happens when the government cannot make the payments on its own debt? > > > > Note there is nothing political about the question at all. It is about > finances. > > > > So? what happens? > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Mon Aug 30 17:20:41 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 10:20:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] attn: John In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <80e46f48-3340-9296-e013-a0f87920bba0@pobox.com> Someone remind me, which is the "no politics" list? On 2021-8-30 08:25, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > In a passing remark you said that there wasn't much difference > between?the right and the left.? Rather than list all the things this > liberal thinks are different and vastly different, I'd just ask you why > you said that.? (George Wallace re political parties:? "There's not a > dime's worth of difference." )? ?billw -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From ben at zaiboc.net Mon Aug 30 18:23:27 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 19:23:27 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Arrogance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <03df50e2-b9a5-b467-b254-58652df3d88f@zaiboc.net> On 30/08/2021 17:04, bill w wrote: > OK Ben, I will challenge you on those:? responsibility, freedom, power > - where are you getting your data about those losses?? ?bill w Well, Stuart suggested that there is a 'Great Experiment' underway, to determine how much freedom, power, and responsibility a society can entrust to its individuals. I don't see that that is the case. Individual freedom, power and responsibility don't seem to be increasing, but rather decreasing. There is ever-increasing surveillance and tracking, making the kind of control you see in China possible, and the slow but steady erosion of cash (preventing the use of cash, which seems to be the end-point of this trend, is a great way to control people) Corporate lobbying is leading to more and more laws that benefit the corporations at the expense of the people. There are a few attempts to counter this (Freedom to Tinker movement, EFF, etc.), but not nearly enough, and hardly effective on the whole. The spread of ultra-PC memes in society is leading to 'chilling effects', suppression of individuality and free speech, for fear of ostracism, not to mention the corrosive effect on education and mental health. The continual efforts to extend the concept of 'software as a service' to digital goods leads in the direction of it being impossible to own (and thus do whatever you like with) things like books, music, films, etc. Would you say there's more, or less bureaucracy now, compared with say 100 years ago? Remember the threat of your Clown President, just a few years ago? To remove the very thing that was mentioned here as being one of the best things about America? (the freedom to criticise, if you don't know what I mean). Hardly a sign of increasing freedom, even if it was never going to fly. What evidence would you present in favour of this 'Great Experiment' idea? Ben From pharos at gmail.com Mon Aug 30 19:18:34 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 20:18:34 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Florida Building collapse Message-ID: Initial results from the investigation into the collapse of Champlain Towers South in Surfside, Florida on June 24, 2021. Quotes: Collapsed Surfside Towers Actually Broke Building Code From the Very Beginning By Alissa Walker Aug. 9, 2021 ?Flawed from day one? reads the report, which highlights problems in the original plans that forced the builders to make decisions on the fly that would have compromised the structure. Drawn up by a firm ? Breiterman, Jurado and Associates ? that no longer exists, the plans specified structural columns that were too narrow to accommodate enough rebar, meaning that contractors had to choose between cramming extra steel into a too-small column ? which can create air pockets that accelerate corrosion ? or inadequately attaching floor slabs to their supports. Building codes have become much more stringent in the past four decades, the report notes, requiring stronger steel reinforcement and concrete less susceptible to salt-water intrusion, meaning newer buildings are unlikely to have these issues. But the collapse may trigger a wave of reform in the way buildings from the same era are inspected and repaired. -------------------- The official report should appear soon. BillK From henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com Mon Aug 30 20:11:39 2021 From: henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com (Henrik Ohrstrom) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 22:11:39 +0200 Subject: [ExI] attn: John In-Reply-To: <80e46f48-3340-9296-e013-a0f87920bba0@pobox.com> References: <80e46f48-3340-9296-e013-a0f87920bba0@pobox.com> Message-ID: Sorry Anton, all discussions involving Usians these days end up inpolitical, as in arguing difficult to differentiate from politics but actually having nothing in common with the real thing at all. US politics these days seem to have not left/right axises but rather Foo and Bar. Also those Foo/Bar axes are not orthogonal, they are depressingly parallel. Until you get a grip on your own politics, you are all quite difficult. /Henrik Den m?n 30 aug. 2021 20:19Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> skrev: > Someone remind me, which is the "no politics" list? > > > On 2021-8-30 08:25, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > In a passing remark you said that there wasn't much difference > > between the right and the left. Rather than list all the things this > > liberal thinks are different and vastly different, I'd just ask you why > > you said that. (George Wallace re political parties: "There's not a > > dime's worth of difference." ) billw > > > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at maxmore.com Mon Aug 30 20:18:37 2021 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 20:18:37 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Arrogance In-Reply-To: <03df50e2-b9a5-b467-b254-58652df3d88f@zaiboc.net> References: <03df50e2-b9a5-b467-b254-58652df3d88f@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: To put this conversation on a slightly firmer foundation, here are some indexes (indices if you prefer) of freedom. I'm most familiar with the one from the Fraser Institute but will try to look through each to get a sense of their pros and cons. Some of these may have changed significantly since last updated. For instance, I would expect Australia to fall down quite a bit due to their overbearing (and failing) response to Covid. https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/human-freedom-index-2020 https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking https://freedomhouse.org/countries/freedom-world/scores https://thenewamerican.com/freedom-index/#/ https://www.heritage.org/index/ https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/freedom-index-by-country In case that's not enough: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_freedom_indices --Max ________________________________ From: extropy-chat on behalf of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat Sent: Monday, August 30, 2021 11:23 AM To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Cc: Ben Zaiboc Subject: Re: [ExI] Arrogance On 30/08/2021 17:04, bill w wrote: > OK Ben, I will challenge you on those: responsibility, freedom, power > - where are you getting your data about those losses? bill w Well, Stuart suggested that there is a 'Great Experiment' underway, to determine how much freedom, power, and responsibility a society can entrust to its individuals. I don't see that that is the case. Individual freedom, power and responsibility don't seem to be increasing, but rather decreasing. There is ever-increasing surveillance and tracking, making the kind of control you see in China possible, and the slow but steady erosion of cash (preventing the use of cash, which seems to be the end-point of this trend, is a great way to control people) Corporate lobbying is leading to more and more laws that benefit the corporations at the expense of the people. There are a few attempts to counter this (Freedom to Tinker movement, EFF, etc.), but not nearly enough, and hardly effective on the whole. The spread of ultra-PC memes in society is leading to 'chilling effects', suppression of individuality and free speech, for fear of ostracism, not to mention the corrosive effect on education and mental health. The continual efforts to extend the concept of 'software as a service' to digital goods leads in the direction of it being impossible to own (and thus do whatever you like with) things like books, music, films, etc. Would you say there's more, or less bureaucracy now, compared with say 100 years ago? Remember the threat of your Clown President, just a few years ago? To remove the very thing that was mentioned here as being one of the best things about America? (the freedom to criticise, if you don't know what I mean). Hardly a sign of increasing freedom, even if it was never going to fly. What evidence would you present in favour of this 'Great Experiment' idea? Ben _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Mon Aug 30 20:35:42 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 13:35:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] IQ and mental health In-Reply-To: <004001d79c8f$0575edb0$1061c910$@rainier66.com> References: <933142C0-593E-4A29-B1C8-E6F073207489@gmail.com> <1875985519.187120.1630194700917@mail.yahoo.com> <001401d79c69$576c8d70$0645a850$@rainier66.com> <004001d79c8f$0575edb0$1061c910$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <009ff37c-66cc-b1db-d8d6-662102c0c48f@pobox.com> On 2021-8-28 21:33, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > I can?t even offer to pray for sufferers, for if there is a god, > he is really pissed at me for not believing he exists. You can't conceive of a god with either a sense of humor or respect for honest disagreement? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From bronto at pobox.com Mon Aug 30 20:38:09 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 13:38:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] IQ and mental health In-Reply-To: References: <001401d79c69$576c8d70$0645a850$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I'd likely do more with people if it were easier to believe that anyone would welcome my company! On 2021-8-28 19:45, SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: > Just keep inviting your friend to do things, was the best for me. For > weeks I couldn?t do anything, and had to turn down so many invites that > when I was a little better, I wasn?t invited anymore. I cancelled so > many plans, I started just not making them anymore. If they have good > days and bad days, you might try inviting them the day of. [....] -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon Aug 30 23:02:40 2021 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 19:02:40 -0400 Subject: [ExI] IQ and mental health In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6D3C8BF1-F918-45E0-8A22-C7798D239CB2@gmail.com> Haha! I?m sure you have something to offer. SR Ballard > On Aug 30, 2021, at 4:46 PM, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat wrote: > > ?I'd likely do more with people if it were easier to believe that anyone would welcome my company! > >> On 2021-8-28 19:45, SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >> Just keep inviting your friend to do things, was the best for me. For weeks I couldn?t do anything, and had to turn down so many invites that when I was a little better, I wasn?t invited anymore. I cancelled so many plans, I started just not making them anymore. If they have good days and bad days, you might try inviting them the day of. [....] > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 30 23:57:00 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 16:57:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] IQ and mental health In-Reply-To: References: <001401d79c69$576c8d70$0645a850$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001b01d79dfa$b9e02ba0$2da082e0$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] IQ and mental health >...I'd likely do more with people if it were easier to believe that anyone would welcome my company! -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org I wouldn't. If anyone would welcome my company I wouldn't trust them. spike From msd001 at gmail.com Tue Aug 31 01:25:24 2021 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 21:25:24 -0400 Subject: [ExI] IQ and mental health In-Reply-To: <001b01d79dfa$b9e02ba0$2da082e0$@rainier66.com> References: <001401d79c69$576c8d70$0645a850$@rainier66.com> <001b01d79dfa$b9e02ba0$2da082e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 8:00 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ...> On Behalf Of Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] IQ and mental health > > >...I'd likely do more with people if it were easier to believe that > anyone would welcome my company! > -- > > I wouldn't. If anyone would welcome my company I wouldn't trust them. > I don't even have my own company; I'm just a guy I know (sort of) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Tue Aug 31 01:54:14 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 18:54:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] IQ and mental health In-Reply-To: References: <001401d79c69$576c8d70$0645a850$@rainier66.com> <001b01d79dfa$b9e02ba0$2da082e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <436d56c8-2afa-51c5-8667-240b7445ef44@pobox.com> On 2021-8-30 18:25, Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat wrote: > I don't even have my own company; > I'm just a guy I know (sort of) In an episode of ?Wonder Woman? (1979), a character based on Howard Hughes tries to pay a cabfare with a check. The driver retorts: "You're [Howard Hughes]? Well I'm John D Rockefeller, and I don't even take *my own* checks!" I watched that show (in 2007) because the cabbie was played by my father-in-law. https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0062067/ As of the day my mother died, Bobby's only child, my One True Ex, had lived exactly one year longer than he did. COINCIDENCE?! -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 31 01:55:06 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 18:55:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] IQ and mental health In-Reply-To: References: <001401d79c69$576c8d70$0645a850$@rainier66.com> <001b01d79dfa$b9e02ba0$2da082e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001a01d79e0b$3b2ad290$b18077b0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat I wouldn't. If anyone would welcome my company I wouldn't trust them. >?I don't even have my own company; >?I'm just a guy I know (sort of) Ja, me too Mike! I thought I knew me, then one day a thought occurred to me: how well do I really know me? I don?t! A huge argument ensued. Onlookers fled in all directions. But think about it: I could be some kind of axe murderer or something! The kind which hasn?t actually gotten around to harming anyone, nor owns a literal axe, but at least I have a figurative one, for I grind it often. One can never be too careful about oneself. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ddraig at gmail.com Tue Aug 31 05:12:46 2021 From: ddraig at gmail.com (ddraig@pobox.com) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2021 15:12:46 +1000 Subject: [ExI] IQ and mental health In-Reply-To: References: <933142C0-593E-4A29-B1C8-E6F073207489@gmail.com> <1875985519.187120.1630194700917@mail.yahoo.com> <001401d79c69$576c8d70$0645a850$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Aug 2021 at 10:56, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Men sincerely want to help (want to help women, anyway; other men are > usually ignored or even shunned as defective) but usually don't know how, > which is why women generally want to talk to another woman, who likely has superior > social and emotional skills compared to a man. > My experience has been men want to find solutions, or workshop finding a solution, and women want to share their experience and get some sympathy and support. So women feel the guys are not listening to them, instead they are using what the woman is saying to construct a way out of the problem, but a lot of the time there is no way out, or one is not being sought, a sympathetic ear is what is being sought. I have lived with, gone out with, hung out with many people with mental illness, so I'm quite familiar with a lot of this *from the outside*. Have lived with two people undergoing psychotic breakdowns on two different occasions. The best the rest of us can do, really, is listen and try to understand and not make judgements. Just ... be helpful. Dwayne -- ddraig at pobox.com ddraigbot / NSO / Connery ...r.e.t.u.r.n....t.o....t.h.e....s.o.u.r.c.e... http://fav.me/dqkgpd our aim is wakefulness, our enemy is dreamless sleep -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 31 13:07:19 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2021 08:07:19 -0500 Subject: [ExI] IQ and mental health In-Reply-To: References: <933142C0-593E-4A29-B1C8-E6F073207489@gmail.com> <1875985519.187120.1630194700917@mail.yahoo.com> <001401d79c69$576c8d70$0645a850$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: My experience has been men want to find solutions, or workshop finding a solution, and women want to share their experience and get some sympathy and support. So women feel the guys are not listening to them, instead they are using what the woman is saying to construct a way out of the problem, but a lot of the time there is no way out, or one is not being sought, a sympathetic ear is what is being sought. Dwayne I think that is exactly correct, and you wanna know where I learned it? "Men are from Mars; Women are from Venus" That guy was an excellent psychologist. Bill w On Tue, Aug 31, 2021 at 12:17 AM ddraig--- via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Sun, 29 Aug 2021 at 10:56, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Men sincerely want to help (want to help women, anyway; other men are >> usually ignored or even shunned as defective) but usually don't know how, >> which is why women generally want to talk to another woman, who likely >> has superior social and emotional skills compared to a man. >> > > > My experience has been men want to find solutions, or workshop finding a > solution, and women want to share their experience and get some sympathy > and support. So women feel the guys are not listening to them, instead > they are using what the woman is saying to construct a way out of the > problem, but a lot of the time there is no way out, or one is not being > sought, a sympathetic ear is what is being sought. > > I have lived with, gone out with, hung out with many people with mental > illness, so I'm quite familiar with a lot of this *from the outside*. > Have lived with two people undergoing psychotic breakdowns on two different > occasions. The best the rest of us can do, really, is listen and try to > understand and not make judgements. Just ... be helpful. > > Dwayne > -- > ddraig at pobox.com ddraigbot / NSO / Connery > ...r.e.t.u.r.n....t.o....t.h.e....s.o.u.r.c.e... > http://fav.me/dqkgpd > > our aim is wakefulness, our enemy is dreamless sleep > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 31 16:58:35 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2021 11:58:35 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Arrogance In-Reply-To: References: <03df50e2-b9a5-b467-b254-58652df3d88f@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Max (or is it Dr. More?) this post should be enshrined as the greatest example of Way Too Much Information I have ever seen. It would take years to filter through all of this. Even then I would have questions regarding the variables on which the ratings are based. I feel that someone has asked a question about a word and then been beaten over the head with every volume of the Old English Dictionary. There is little anyone can do about any of the variables (such as government spending or judicial integrity) and so I conclude: Don't worry about it. Keep on truckin'. bill w On Mon, Aug 30, 2021 at 3:22 PM Max More via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > To put this conversation on a slightly firmer foundation, here are some > indexes (indices if you prefer) of freedom. I'm most familiar with the one > from the Fraser Institute but will try to look through each to get a sense > of their pros and cons. > > Some of these may have changed significantly since last updated. For > instance, I would expect Australia to fall down quite a bit due to their > overbearing (and failing) response to Covid. > > https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/human-freedom-index-2020 > > https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking > > https://freedomhouse.org/countries/freedom-world/scores > > https://thenewamerican.com/freedom-index/#/ > > https://www.heritage.org/index/ > > https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/freedom-index-by-country > > In case that's not enough: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_freedom_indices > > --Max > ------------------------------ > *From:* extropy-chat on behalf > of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Monday, August 30, 2021 11:23 AM > *To:* extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > *Cc:* Ben Zaiboc > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Arrogance > > On 30/08/2021 17:04, bill w wrote: > > OK Ben, I will challenge you on those: responsibility, freedom, power > > - where are you getting your data about those losses? bill w > > > Well, Stuart suggested that there is a 'Great Experiment' underway, to > determine how much freedom, power, and responsibility a society can > entrust to its individuals. > > I don't see that that is the case. > > Individual freedom, power and responsibility don't seem to be > increasing, but rather decreasing. > > There is ever-increasing surveillance and tracking, making the kind of > control you see in China possible, and the slow but steady erosion of > cash (preventing the use of cash, which seems to be the end-point of > this trend, is a great way to control people) > > Corporate lobbying is leading to more and more laws that benefit the > corporations at the expense of the people. There are a few attempts to > counter this (Freedom to Tinker movement, EFF, etc.), but not nearly > enough, and hardly effective on the whole. > > The spread of ultra-PC memes in society is leading to 'chilling > effects', suppression of individuality and free speech, for fear of > ostracism, not to mention the corrosive effect on education and mental > health. > > The continual efforts to extend the concept of 'software as a service' > to digital goods leads in the direction of it being impossible to own > (and thus do whatever you like with) things like books, music, films, etc. > > Would you say there's more, or less bureaucracy now, compared with say > 100 years ago? > > Remember the threat of your Clown President, just a few years ago? To > remove the very thing that was mentioned here as being one of the best > things about America? (the freedom to criticise, if you don't know what > I mean). Hardly a sign of increasing freedom, even if it was never going > to fly. > > What evidence would you present in favour of this 'Great Experiment' idea? > > Ben > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Tue Aug 31 17:52:25 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2021 13:52:25 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Arrogance In-Reply-To: References: <03df50e2-b9a5-b467-b254-58652df3d88f@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 31, 2021 at 1:02 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > There is little anyone can do about any of the variables (such as > government spending or judicial integrity) and so I conclude: > > Don't worry about it. Keep on truckin'. > There's little that can be done, but without metrics there's even less. At least such lists give people shopping for a place to live some useful information. Someone has to worry about these things or the situation will never improve. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Tue Aug 31 18:41:32 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2021 19:41:32 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Great sf writers: A.A. Attanasio In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3091bdcd-23e6-fe69-7e98-715f5811cd09@zaiboc.net> On 30/08/2021 04:14, Adrian Tymes wrote: > On Sun, Aug 29, 2021 at 10:49 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > > wrote: > > At the very least, any writer who assumes that the speed of light > can be exceeded, should deal with the consequences that would > ensue. I'm not talking about being able to expand to other > galaxies, etc., I'm talking about the consequences that pretty > much ensure that the speed of light cannot be exceeded. > > > Which consequences would those be? I'm thinking about time-travel paradoxes in particular, FTL travel leading to causality violation, and the 'self-healing' phenomenon, where time-travel cancels itself out, meaning that even if you did invent a time-machine (or FTL travel, which seems to be essentially the same thing), the changes you'd make would create a feedback effect, resulting in you not inventing the time machine in the first place. Or travelling faster than light. There's a name for this principle, I forget what it is, but it seems to rule out time-travel and therefore also FTL travel. And by the way, I don't claim to understand this stuff. Just repeating (or paraphrasing, rather) what I've read in various places at various times. The? concept that there's no such thing as simultaneity over large enough distances blows my tiny mind, never mind the rest of it. There's scope, though, in a story, for the equivalent of Greg Egan's wormhole jest in Diaspora, where even though someone travels /technically/ faster than light, they still don't in fact get to their destination faster than a photon would, and the hugely advanced, energy-hungry and expensive technology they employ is completely useless. OK, I can see the problem with that immediately. Just being able to travel /at/ the speed of light (I mean a physical object, not just as a signal) would be a huge thing. In fact it would be an infinitely huge thing, haha. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at maxmore.com Tue Aug 31 18:52:43 2021 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2021 18:52:43 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Arrogance In-Reply-To: References: <03df50e2-b9a5-b467-b254-58652df3d88f@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Dave, I agree. Bill (and, please, it's "Max"), the list is less overwhelming if you take a quick high-level look. That would involve first deciding what exactly it is (or exactly enough) you're looking for in ratings of freedom. Some of those lists are based on definitions of freedom that I find useless and even backward while others match well with what I consider to be freedom -- essentially recognition and protection of negative rights. That lets you focus in on maybe two or three rankings at most so you can then drill down into their metrics. If you really want to figure out whether freedom is increasing or decreasing, as Dave said, you have to have metrics and you have to do some work. We are not equipped with a reliable freedom-sense! --Max ________________________________ From: extropy-chat on behalf of Dave Sill via extropy-chat Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2021 10:52 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: Dave Sill Subject: Re: [ExI] Arrogance On Tue, Aug 31, 2021 at 1:02 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: There is little anyone can do about any of the variables (such as government spending or judicial integrity) and so I conclude: Don't worry about it. Keep on truckin'. There's little that can be done, but without metrics there's even less. At least such lists give people shopping for a place to live some useful information. Someone has to worry about these things or the situation will never improve. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 31 19:23:46 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2021 14:23:46 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Arrogance In-Reply-To: References: <03df50e2-b9a5-b467-b254-58652df3d88f@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Since we are way down the list of free places, I wonder just what the data show about people trying to emigrate to the free countries. Are we way up the list of popular places because we have so many welfare programs? (we are 1st as Google just told me) And citizenship for those born here (sneak across the border, have a baby, get permanent rights for your kid). Plenty of places are freer than we are, so I think it's the money they can get here. FYI, the top five destinations: USA, Germany, Saudi Arabia, Russia, UK Clearly, those going to Saudi ARabia and Russia are not looking for more freedoms than they can find here or in Europe. bill w On Tue, Aug 31, 2021 at 1:55 PM Max More via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Dave, I agree. > > Bill (and, please, it's "Max"), the list is less overwhelming if you take > a quick high-level look. That would involve first deciding what exactly it > is (or exactly enough) you're looking for in ratings of freedom. Some of > those lists are based on definitions of freedom that I find useless and > even backward while others match well with what I consider to be freedom -- > essentially recognition and protection of negative rights. That lets you > focus in on maybe two or three rankings at most so you can then drill down > into their metrics. > > If you really want to figure out whether freedom is increasing or > decreasing, as Dave said, you have to have metrics and you have to do some > work. We are not equipped with a reliable freedom-sense! > > --Max > ------------------------------ > *From:* extropy-chat on behalf > of Dave Sill via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 31, 2021 10:52 AM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* Dave Sill > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Arrogance > > On Tue, Aug 31, 2021 at 1:02 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > There is little anyone can do about any of the variables (such as > government spending or judicial integrity) and so I conclude: > > Don't worry about it. Keep on truckin'. > > > There's little that can be done, but without metrics there's even less. At > least such lists give people shopping for a place to live some useful > information. > > Someone has to worry about these things or the situation will never > improve. > > -Dave > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Tue Aug 31 19:58:39 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2021 15:58:39 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Arrogance In-Reply-To: References: <03df50e2-b9a5-b467-b254-58652df3d88f@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 31, 2021 at 3:27 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Since we are way down the list of free places, I wonder just what the data > show about people trying to emigrate to the free countries. Are we way up > the list of popular places because we have so many welfare programs? (we > are 1st as Google just told me) And citizenship for those born here (sneak > across the border, have a baby, get permanent rights for your kid). Plenty > of places are freer than we are, so I think it's the money they can get > here. FYI, the top five destinations: > USA, Germany, Saudi Arabia, Russia, UK > That's a great question, Bill. I'm sure there are a lot of factors that go into deciding where to emigrate. Probably need to look at the reasons people are emigrating in the first place. People looking for jobs are probably rushing to the US now because of our worker shortage. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: