[ExI] Fwd: [Extropolis] Luciferian Murder?

William Flynn Wallace foozler83 at gmail.com
Fri Dec 31 15:34:37 UTC 2021

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 9:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Extropolis] Luciferian Murder?
To: <extropolis at googlegroups.com>, ExI chat list <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>

> William Flynn Wallace wrote:
>> I taught courses in Learning for over 30 years and I can testify that
>> punishment, of the positive kind ( as opposed to the negative kind, where a
>> response results in the withdrawal of something good, like taking a toy
>> away) has so many unfortunate side effects, often worse than the behavior
>> being punished, that I would never recommend it in child raising unless the
>> behavior being punished is actually dangerous to the person or to others.
> Let met start off with these:

Side effects of positive punishment:

1 - creates fear of the punisher and possibly hate  - may generalize to
other authority figures

2 - does not generalize well to similar behaviors

3 - creates avoidance of punishers

4 - creates hostility towards punisher and maybe society

5 - does nothing to encourage proper behavior

6 - creates learning of how to avoid punishment - i.e. get away with bad

7 - encourages acting out of anger and frustration by punisher -poor model

8 - is associated with poorer cognitive and intellectual development

9 - may result in  excessive anxiety, guilt, and self-punishment. -low self

10 - encourages excessive punishment when mild punishment does not work

11 - can create aggression and antisocial behavior
You can nitpick these - some or most do not necessarily happen every time,
and some only when the person being punished reacts rather strongly.  But
all of them are common.

> Both prison and capital punishment are examples of negative punishment. In
> the first, one is taking away the subject's freedom and in the second, one
> is taking away the subject's life. I am not sure how either of these
> options is better than the positive punishment of flogging them in the
> public square.

You are correct - negative punishment can occur with positive.  However, in
the usual case, the toy taken away can be regained by showing positive
behaviors, like chores, which are then reinforced.  So you have punishment
of the bad behavior and positive reinforcement of the good behavior,
something that does not occur in most positive punishment situations.  A
prisoner can lessen his term with good behavior, but not by a lot.

> Positive punishment of undesired behavior is an evolved trait that would
> not have evolved unless it was successful. For reference look at evolved
> behavior of all social primates and pack animals. When one wolf wants stop
> another wolf from stealing its food, it warns and ultimately bites the
> offending wolf. Chimpanzees use pain and violence to regulate one another's
> behavior. Even game theoretic computer simulations show that punishing
> defectors in tit-for-tat is a Nash equilibrium and an evolutionarily stable
> strategy
As we know, humans have an excess of anger.  When thwarted we get angry and
strike out.  That seems to be a natural reaction. I never said that
positive punishment did not work.  Clearly it can though if it continues
for something it is clearly not working. (though people who hit and don't
get what they want tend to hit harder.  My point is that it can be costly
in terms of the undesireable side effects.

> Until constantly forgiving someone for the same offenses becomes a
> pattern, at which point forgiving becomes enabling.

Just as positive punishment can get worse every time, so can negative.
What is taken away gets more and more desireable - at first, one hour of TV
is lost; next three hours; next all night.  In addition, I might require
hard work to regain the desireables.  If this is not working perhaps some
consultation with professional is called for.  I would even justify threats
of physical punishment.

>>   prison riots that more than occasionally kill
> Again, *all these punishment*s you rail against are negative punishments
> which are supposed to be the good kind, while spanking a child or tasering
> an adult is positive punishment and is considered bad.  Not all by any
> means.  And it's not the negative aspect that creates the problems.
>  Are you sure this is not a case of psychologists thinking with their
> hearts instead of their brains? How did they conduct these studies? It
> seems that a good study would be hard to set up since you can't compare
> outcomes in identical children using controls.
> Most studies, if not all, of positive punishment cannot be ethically
> done.  But those side effects can be verified, often by scars and bruises
> and broken bones in abused wives and children.  Do you doubt that?
>> This is a HUGE problem. These poor kids (race seems far less relevant
> than socioeconomic status - true) respect and fear one another far more
> than they do their teachers or school administration because of their gang
> mentality of "snitches get stitches". Numerous TikTok challenges have them
> vandalizing school property, stealing from, and hitting their teachers. The
> prohibition against positive punishment for school children seems like it
> will be the death of public education, at least in the United States.
> Coddling of delinquents  has gotten so bad that it seems like almost like a
> communist plot to destabilize western liberal democracies from within. The
> educational psychology theory that teachers learn in school seems
> completely ineffectual in the real world of schools in poor neighborhoods.
> All it seems to do is prime these kids for prison by teaching them that
> authority figures are a joke who have no teeth. They can get away with
> anything they want until they cross a cop or another thug that shoot them,
> beat them, or throw them in jail. Don't get me started on the education
> establishment!
> I am not in favor of coddling anyone.  You can make punishments severe
> without hitting people.  Hitting people to me is a sign that you can't, or
> don't want to try anything else.  I am a liberal but not a bleeding heart
> one.  I have no idea what to do with poor, misbehaving kids in schools.
> Wish I did.  I just don't equate getting tough with lots of positive
> punishment.  I would justify it only as a last resort.
It might make YOU feel better, but what about the good of society? What if
>> that reckless driver you forgave ends up killing a whole family because you
>> let him off the hook?
> I forgive the reckless driver so as to cool my temper and not get reckless
myself.  Doesn't mean that I won't call him in to 911 - I have done so,
esp. if their driving is erratic, possibly meaning drunk.  One who just
cuts me off gets hand signals and honking.  Try Googling 'meta-analyses of
positive punishement'.  That's what I would do.   bill w

>> This really requires a much longer post with added references to studies,
>> but maybe it's a start.  bill w
> Stuart LaForge
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