From ipbrians at gmail.com  Mon Feb  1 00:38:55 2021
From: ipbrians at gmail.com (Ivor Brians)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 16:38:55 -0800
Subject: [ExI] ARTS - Extropian poetry
Message-ID: <EBA17832-A340-4FFC-AAB6-695AA994F408@hxcore.ol>

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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Feb  1 02:23:17 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 18:23:17 -0800
Subject: [ExI] ARTS - Extropian poetry
In-Reply-To: <EBA17832-A340-4FFC-AAB6-695AA994F408@hxcore.ol>
References: <EBA17832-A340-4FFC-AAB6-695AA994F408@hxcore.ol>
Message-ID: <005601d6f841$340a9600$9c1fc200$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Ivor Brians via extropy-chat
Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2021 4:39 PM
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Cc: Ivor Brians <ipbrians at gmail.com>
Subject: [ExI] ARTS - Extropian poetry

 

Hi all,

 

>?After a several year absence I?m back. Previously, I mostly read the posts and very rarely posted myself. (that would explain why no one knows me)  ?? I became interested in Extropian philosophy probably a decade ago, when I found this group.

 

>?Does anyone happen to have a list of platforms which might publish Extropian poetry and/or essays?

 

>?Thanks, Ivor 

 

 

 

 

 

We remember you Ivor.  Glad you returned.  We just assumed you didn?t love us no more.

 

Welcome back, sir.

 

spike  

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From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Feb  1 04:03:28 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 20:03:28 -0800
Subject: [ExI] ARTS - Extropian poetry
In-Reply-To: <EBA17832-A340-4FFC-AAB6-695AA994F408@hxcore.ol>
References: <EBA17832-A340-4FFC-AAB6-695AA994F408@hxcore.ol>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTMejmcYY2UPicFpO6mo75jt5JDnaeE81m0xCEjhSkgKg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jan 31, 2021 at 5:58 PM Ivor Brians via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Does anyone happen to have a list of platforms which might publish
> Extropian poetry and/or essays?
>

Others might have lists more comprehensive,
but you can post poems and essays here.
There is no need to be apprehensive.
Just compose, write, and send with naught to fear.
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Feb  1 04:50:45 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 20:50:45 -0800
Subject: [ExI] ARTS - Extropian poetry
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTMejmcYY2UPicFpO6mo75jt5JDnaeE81m0xCEjhSkgKg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <EBA17832-A340-4FFC-AAB6-695AA994F408@hxcore.ol>
 <CALAdGNTMejmcYY2UPicFpO6mo75jt5JDnaeE81m0xCEjhSkgKg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003801d6f855$cdef29c0$69cd7d40$@rainier66.com>

 

 

> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] ARTS - Extropian poetry

 

On Sun, Jan 31, 2021 at 5:58 PM Ivor Brians via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

Does anyone happen to have a list of platforms which might publish Extropian poetry and/or essays?  Ivor

 

>?Others might have lists more comprehensive,

but you can post poems and essays here.

There is no need to be apprehensive.

Just compose, write, and send with naught to fear?  Adrian

 

 

There once was a young man named Brians

He?s made up of atoms and ions,

Writes essays and poems,

By this we shall know ?em,

We?ve no objections: 100 percent buy ins.

 

Oh that is so lame.  I know I can do better than that.

 

If Ivor posts essays 

On this site that?s faire-laissez,

Then no one here will complain

If he posts stuff that?s smart 

And straight from the heart

If it also comes straight from the brain.

 

Sheesh, it?s getting worse.  That whole switching the order of the term borrowed from the French is goes beyond poetic license, reaching all the way to poetic licentious.  I shall quit while I am behind.

 

Ivor, post away, me lad.  Adrian said it right, even did it rhyme and rhythm.  Your thoughts are welcome here.  Your poetry on your worst day is merciful relief compared to my paltry efforts on my best day.

 

spike

 

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Feb  1 05:03:29 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 21:03:29 -0800
Subject: [ExI] ARTS - Extropian poetry
In-Reply-To: <003801d6f855$cdef29c0$69cd7d40$@rainier66.com>
References: <EBA17832-A340-4FFC-AAB6-695AA994F408@hxcore.ol>
 <CALAdGNTMejmcYY2UPicFpO6mo75jt5JDnaeE81m0xCEjhSkgKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003801d6f855$cdef29c0$69cd7d40$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <004d01d6f857$9562c650$c02852f0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 



 

>?Sheesh, it?s getting worse.  ?spike

 

I can offer at least a lame excuse: Ivor gave me two names, both of which are difficult to work with.  Adrian of course is impossible, but the Tymes part makes up for it: many words with which that rhymes.  I have the easiest one of all: plenty of words that rhyme with both spike and Jones.

 

Perhaps I shall just drop the poetry andstick to light-hearted essays, ja?

 

spike

 

 

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From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Feb  1 05:14:22 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 21:14:22 -0800
Subject: [ExI] ARTS - Extropian poetry
In-Reply-To: <004d01d6f857$9562c650$c02852f0$@rainier66.com>
References: <EBA17832-A340-4FFC-AAB6-695AA994F408@hxcore.ol>
 <CALAdGNTMejmcYY2UPicFpO6mo75jt5JDnaeE81m0xCEjhSkgKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003801d6f855$cdef29c0$69cd7d40$@rainier66.com>
 <004d01d6f857$9562c650$c02852f0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNR-NuG0mOe8ceyvttoBWRL_beiE3QyR1+-c5Yeu31GgYg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jan 31, 2021 at 9:04 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>  Adrian of course is impossible,
>

Can one rhyme Adrian?
But of course someone can.
There is a whole group, man,
Of words with which to plan.
Make poems for a fan,
Until your verse grows wan.

but the Tymes part makes up for it: many words with which that rhymes.
>

 With training, one can rhyme on a dime most of the time - though they
don't always chime.
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Feb  1 14:03:20 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 06:03:20 -0800
Subject: [ExI] ARTS - Extropian poetry
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNR-NuG0mOe8ceyvttoBWRL_beiE3QyR1+-c5Yeu31GgYg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <EBA17832-A340-4FFC-AAB6-695AA994F408@hxcore.ol>
 <CALAdGNTMejmcYY2UPicFpO6mo75jt5JDnaeE81m0xCEjhSkgKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003801d6f855$cdef29c0$69cd7d40$@rainier66.com>
 <004d01d6f857$9562c650$c02852f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNR-NuG0mOe8ceyvttoBWRL_beiE3QyR1+-c5Yeu31GgYg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007901d6f8a3$0036d700$00a48500$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat



 

>? With training, one can rhyme on a dime most of the time - though they don't always chime.

 

 

Well right.  But Adrian, we don?t all have your talent, pal.

 

I fear we migtha already scared that lad away.  Hey Ivor, tell something about Ivor.  As I vaguely recall, you were a student?

 

spike

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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Feb  1 15:07:57 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 07:07:57 -0800
Subject: [ExI] ARTS - Extropian poetry
In-Reply-To: <007901d6f8a3$0036d700$00a48500$@rainier66.com>
References: <EBA17832-A340-4FFC-AAB6-695AA994F408@hxcore.ol>
 <CALAdGNTMejmcYY2UPicFpO6mo75jt5JDnaeE81m0xCEjhSkgKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003801d6f855$cdef29c0$69cd7d40$@rainier66.com>
 <004d01d6f857$9562c650$c02852f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNR-NuG0mOe8ceyvttoBWRL_beiE3QyR1+-c5Yeu31GgYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <007901d6f8a3$0036d700$00a48500$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <00b901d6f8ac$06f8cb80$14ea6280$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 



 

>>?place to post Extropian essays and poems?  Ivor

 

>?Well right.  But Adrian, we don?t all have your talent, pal.

?spike

 

 

 

Ivor?s question has me thinking.  The electronic media have a reach and scope that paper books can never match because few of us collect paper books anymore.  But physical books have a big advantage that cannot be matched by the electronic medium:  you can use a book to swat some annoying blister who won?t stop bothering you.

 

There is a second advantage to paper books: they have a certain permanence that is difficult to match in the electronic medium.  Once a prole prints out her thoughts and binds the pages, she can put the dusty old volume on a dusty old shelf and it will still be right there years from now, with even more dust.

 

Question please: if someone has a fun blog filled with stuff like math curiosities, and that person is a high school student who will be applying for a college in a coupla years, is there any advantage to printing out that blog, binding the pages and presenting it as a credential to the admissions board?  Has anyone here ever heard of someone doing that?  How much does it cost to publish about 10 copies with a hard binding?

 

spike

 

 

 

 

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From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Feb  1 17:30:04 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 09:30:04 -0800
Subject: [ExI] ARTS - Extropian poetry
In-Reply-To: <007901d6f8a3$0036d700$00a48500$@rainier66.com>
References: <EBA17832-A340-4FFC-AAB6-695AA994F408@hxcore.ol>
 <CALAdGNTMejmcYY2UPicFpO6mo75jt5JDnaeE81m0xCEjhSkgKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003801d6f855$cdef29c0$69cd7d40$@rainier66.com>
 <004d01d6f857$9562c650$c02852f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNR-NuG0mOe8ceyvttoBWRL_beiE3QyR1+-c5Yeu31GgYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <007901d6f8a3$0036d700$00a48500$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSOrH2kjZycN2=zQAKVr_ACWcSw59LsWKSLWjEXLCXO1g@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 1, 2021 at 6:07 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
>
> >? With training, one can rhyme on a dime most of the time - though they
> don't always chime.
>
>
>
> Well right.  But Adrian, we don?t all have your talent, pal.
>

You can make a bot to bard up for fun.
Start with a chatbot, written in past time.
Review and revise the code, line by line.
Code in a sonnet's structure, have it run:
Ten syllables by fourteen lines, and done.
If it uses doggerel, 'tis no crime,
So long as it takes care to place its rhyme
On a consistent scheme, then you have won.
The Petrarchan version is a classic:
A B B A A B B A and then
C D E C D E to finish up.
Alternately you can do Shakespearic.
Either way a template that it fills in.
With the right programs, you too can bard up.
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From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Feb  1 17:32:09 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 09:32:09 -0800
Subject: [ExI] ARTS - Extropian poetry
In-Reply-To: <00b901d6f8ac$06f8cb80$14ea6280$@rainier66.com>
References: <EBA17832-A340-4FFC-AAB6-695AA994F408@hxcore.ol>
 <CALAdGNTMejmcYY2UPicFpO6mo75jt5JDnaeE81m0xCEjhSkgKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003801d6f855$cdef29c0$69cd7d40$@rainier66.com>
 <004d01d6f857$9562c650$c02852f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNR-NuG0mOe8ceyvttoBWRL_beiE3QyR1+-c5Yeu31GgYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <007901d6f8a3$0036d700$00a48500$@rainier66.com>
 <00b901d6f8ac$06f8cb80$14ea6280$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNS9e_bhKKnhdTcOzUrXm_irtFW7QmRpRY9f_9i4s-Yw2Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 1, 2021 at 7:10 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Question please: if someone has a fun blog filled with stuff like math
> curiosities, and that person is a high school student who will be applying
> for a college in a coupla years, is there any advantage to printing out
> that blog, binding the pages and presenting it as a credential to the
> admissions board?  Has anyone here ever heard of someone doing that?  How
> much does it cost to publish about 10 copies with a hard binding?
>

These days?  Just link the blog to the board.  They have Web browsers too,
and the younger members might be just as used to reading stuff online by
now as the student is.
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Feb  1 17:48:00 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 09:48:00 -0800
Subject: [ExI] ARTS - Extropian poetry
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSOrH2kjZycN2=zQAKVr_ACWcSw59LsWKSLWjEXLCXO1g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <EBA17832-A340-4FFC-AAB6-695AA994F408@hxcore.ol>
 <CALAdGNTMejmcYY2UPicFpO6mo75jt5JDnaeE81m0xCEjhSkgKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003801d6f855$cdef29c0$69cd7d40$@rainier66.com>
 <004d01d6f857$9562c650$c02852f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNR-NuG0mOe8ceyvttoBWRL_beiE3QyR1+-c5Yeu31GgYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <007901d6f8a3$0036d700$00a48500$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNSOrH2kjZycN2=zQAKVr_ACWcSw59LsWKSLWjEXLCXO1g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <013301d6f8c2$627e3330$277a9990$@rainier66.com>

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat



Well right.  But Adrian, we don?t all have your talent, pal.

 

>?You can make a bot to bard up for fun.

Start with a chatbot, written in past time.

Review and revise the code, line by line.

Code in a sonnet's structure, have it run:
Ten syllables by fourteen lines, and done.
If it uses doggerel, 'tis no crime,
So long as it takes care to place its rhyme
On a consistent scheme, then you have won.
The Petrarchan version is a classic:
A B B A A B B A and then
C D E C D E to finish up.
Alternately you can do Shakespearic.
Either way a template that it fills in.
With the right programs, you too can bard up. ? Adrian

 

 

Adrian, I remember chess software, watching it get better and better, with my first one in 1979, really just a toy but it could play an OK game if you gave it an hour per move and took one minute to ponder a reply.  Over time the software got better, and ja, we can ignore Deep Blue and all that, look at just the commercial level stuff.  I recall in about 2000 or 1999, the commercial software got so good I couldn?t really compete with it anymore.  I was at a chess party with Peter Thiel of all things, and he commented on how good it was.  Peter was a master at the time.  I reached Expert on my best day.

 

I remember getting that software and watching the transition from not as good as I am to better than I am to I can?t even compete with this anymore.

 

Now? poetry.  I can?t compete with software in poetry anymore.

 

Cool!

 

spike

 

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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Feb  1 17:47:43 2021
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 17:47:43 +0000
Subject: [ExI] ARTS - Extropian poetry
In-Reply-To: <00b901d6f8ac$06f8cb80$14ea6280$@rainier66.com>
References: <EBA17832-A340-4FFC-AAB6-695AA994F408@hxcore.ol>
 <CALAdGNTMejmcYY2UPicFpO6mo75jt5JDnaeE81m0xCEjhSkgKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003801d6f855$cdef29c0$69cd7d40$@rainier66.com>
 <004d01d6f857$9562c650$c02852f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNR-NuG0mOe8ceyvttoBWRL_beiE3QyR1+-c5Yeu31GgYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <007901d6f8a3$0036d700$00a48500$@rainier66.com>
 <00b901d6f8ac$06f8cb80$14ea6280$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armiabGLO77yHFdiGKO1C9sRF_CSWLABhWUV7gPi90RVMtg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 1 Feb 2021 at 15:13, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> >?Well right.  But Adrian, we don?t all have your talent, pal.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


I thought I remembered something about this   .....
Back in November I posted that a Google AI will write poetry for you.
Go on -- try it!   :)

You choose the format and poet style and provide the first line. The
AI will offer suggestions on every following line, which you can
accept or write your own line.

<https://sites.research.google/versebyverse/>



BillK


From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Feb  1 17:58:39 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 09:58:39 -0800
Subject: [ExI] ARTS - Extropian poetry
In-Reply-To: <013301d6f8c2$627e3330$277a9990$@rainier66.com>
References: <EBA17832-A340-4FFC-AAB6-695AA994F408@hxcore.ol>
 <CALAdGNTMejmcYY2UPicFpO6mo75jt5JDnaeE81m0xCEjhSkgKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003801d6f855$cdef29c0$69cd7d40$@rainier66.com>
 <004d01d6f857$9562c650$c02852f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNR-NuG0mOe8ceyvttoBWRL_beiE3QyR1+-c5Yeu31GgYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <007901d6f8a3$0036d700$00a48500$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNSOrH2kjZycN2=zQAKVr_ACWcSw59LsWKSLWjEXLCXO1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <013301d6f8c2$627e3330$277a9990$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQAk8uoZoz5VHsdpbgsbniKjFZP+9UY=FcRMrtuKpuD0A@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 1, 2021 at 9:50 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I remember getting that software and watching the transition from not as
> good as I am to better than I am to I can?t even compete with this anymore.
>
>
>
> Now? poetry.  I can?t compete with software in poetry anymore.
>
>
>
> Cool!
>

The point is not to compete with the software, but to be able to make - or
find - and then use better software.

Every year, the talent level of humans and our machines combined, grows.
The software is our tool - perhaps, to some, our partner.  It is pointless
to fight it; instead, let it help us.  Use it.  (Imagine that it wants to
be used, if it helps.  That's not entirely incorrect.)
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From bronto at pobox.com  Mon Feb  1 18:39:26 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 10:39:26 -0800
Subject: [ExI] ARTS - Extropian poetry
In-Reply-To: <004d01d6f857$9562c650$c02852f0$@rainier66.com>
References: <EBA17832-A340-4FFC-AAB6-695AA994F408@hxcore.ol>
 <CALAdGNTMejmcYY2UPicFpO6mo75jt5JDnaeE81m0xCEjhSkgKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003801d6f855$cdef29c0$69cd7d40$@rainier66.com>
 <004d01d6f857$9562c650$c02852f0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <1d538441-ed03-f207-7f13-eb7dbe7d1614@pobox.com>

On 2021-1-31 21:03, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:
> Adrian of course is impossible

Doesn't it rhyme with Brian(s)?  :P

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org

From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Feb  1 19:35:49 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 11:35:49 -0800
Subject: [ExI] ARTS - Extropian poetry
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQAk8uoZoz5VHsdpbgsbniKjFZP+9UY=FcRMrtuKpuD0A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <EBA17832-A340-4FFC-AAB6-695AA994F408@hxcore.ol>
 <CALAdGNTMejmcYY2UPicFpO6mo75jt5JDnaeE81m0xCEjhSkgKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003801d6f855$cdef29c0$69cd7d40$@rainier66.com>
 <004d01d6f857$9562c650$c02852f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNR-NuG0mOe8ceyvttoBWRL_beiE3QyR1+-c5Yeu31GgYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <007901d6f8a3$0036d700$00a48500$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNSOrH2kjZycN2=zQAKVr_ACWcSw59LsWKSLWjEXLCXO1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <013301d6f8c2$627e3330$277a9990$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQAk8uoZoz5VHsdpbgsbniKjFZP+9UY=FcRMrtuKpuD0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <016101d6f8d1$726e1a80$574a4f80$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat->?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] ARTS - Extropian poetry

 

On Mon, Feb 1, 2021 at 9:50 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

I remember getting that software and watching the transition from not as good as I am to better than I am to I can?t even compete with this anymore.

 

Now? poetry.  I can?t compete with software in poetry anymore.

 

Cool!

 

>?The point is not to compete with the software, but to be able to make - or find - and then use better software?

 

Ja.  If I did that, perhaps I could escape such literary sins as using faire-laissez to rhyme with essay.  I will likely be condemned to poet?s hell for stuff like that.  Software won?t go there.

 

 

>?Every year, the talent level of humans and our machines combined, grows.  The software is our tool - perhaps, to some, our partner.  It is pointless to fight it; instead, let it help us.  Use it.  (Imagine that it wants to be used, if it helps.  That's not entirely incorrect.) 

 

Ja I recall BillK?s posting a link to that but I didn?t use it at the time.  Part of problem is that Ivor hasn?t given us much to work with: an unusual name and a taste for poetry: that by itself is thin gruel for the poet and the poetry software to build upon.  I am still hoping he will tell us something cool about Ivor.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

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From sparge at gmail.com  Mon Feb  1 20:07:42 2021
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 15:07:42 -0500
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?12_Little_Things_That_Show_People_You=E2=80=99re?=
	=?utf-8?q?_Intelligent?=
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2ckmvS+cufjENdCGEP9xVjg0yTwoDagvM92+jyjznPR2Q@mail.gmail.com>

https://medium.com/the-ascent/12-little-things-that-show-people-youre-intelligent-without-you-having-to-say-it-a9dd8f34f53f

TL;DR:

1. Showing up on time.
2. Dressing appropriately.
3. Remembering the little things.
4. Holding the door open.
5. The art on your walls.
6. Your shoes.
7. When you take notes.
8. The state of your desktop.
9. Spending money wisely.
10. How you invest your time.
11. The foods you eat.
12. Your circle of friends.

--

Some of these are good; some are pretty silly. There are some obvious
omissions like:

Be polite and respectful.
Be a good listener.
Be open minded.
Pay attention.
Keep your promises.

I'm sure we could add dozens more.

-Dave
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Feb  1 20:40:05 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 12:40:05 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?12_Little_Things_That_Show_People_You=E2=80=99re?=
	=?utf-8?q?_Intelligent?=
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2ckmvS+cufjENdCGEP9xVjg0yTwoDagvM92+jyjznPR2Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM5aL2ckmvS+cufjENdCGEP9xVjg0yTwoDagvM92+jyjznPR2Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01b401d6f8da$6d44c230$47ce4690$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of Dave Sill via extropy-chat

Subject: [ExI] 12 Little Things That Show People You?re Intelligent

 

https://medium.com/the-ascent/12-little-things-that-show-people-youre-intelligent-without-you-having-to-say-it-a9dd8f34f53f

 

TL;DR:

 

1. Showing up on time.

2. Dressing appropriately.

3. Remembering the little things.

4. Holding the door open.

5. The art on your walls.

6. Your shoes.

7. When you take notes.

8. The state of your desktop.

9. Spending money wisely.

10. How you invest your time.

11. The foods you eat.

12. Your circle of friends.

 

--

 

Dave, the interesting thing about this is that so many of them are undefined.  For instance? dressing appropriately.  Who gets to decide what that is?  The latest fashion designer?  If someone buys and wears that fashion when it isn?t practical doesn?t indicate intelligence to me, it indicates gullibility which is nearly the opposite.  

 

Consider the really objectively-smart crowd, as measured by stellar performance on a competition math test.  Sure, it is argued the geek crowd really isn?t intelligent, because they are nerdy and socially maladjusted.  Well I ain?t buying it.  They are intelligent.  But? we do dress weird.  We show up at a funeral in a T-shirt with Maxwell?s equations on there and crap like that.  I see it as not so much a lack of intelligence but rather a strict dedication to hardcore non-conformity.

 

Remembering little things: I am a champion there, for I can name by memory all the subatomic particles in the mainstream quantum theories.  But that might not be what they meant.

 

Holding the door open: eh depends.  I remember doing that and getting yelled at: Close the damn door!  You?re letting flies out!

 

Art on your walls.  Heh.  That can be anything.  It says more about the judgmental yahoo deciding he is an art critic and assuming he is intelligent.  Harumph.  (Hey cool I may be on the road to recovery from becoming post-ghost Scrooge.  I have scarcely harumphed in months.)

 

Shoes.  Shoes, well OK I will buy that one.  Some shoes really are just stupid.  Those spike heel thingies, oh mercy.  Risky.  I come close to hurting myself every time I put them on, and never mind the risk of forgetting and answering the doorbell, having the neighbor see me in them.  Dumb.  Don?t go there.  While not there, stay not there.

 

When you take notes.  I will buy that.  Doing that during a lecture: smart.  Doing that while driving: not smart.

 

State of your desktop: note he didn?t actually specify what that state should be to indicate intelligence, so no actual information there.

 

Spending money wisely: subjective.  No score.

 

How you invest your time: again subjective.  The writer is really saying if you choose to invest your time the same way she does, then she will consider you intelligent.  But she doesn?t say.  No score.

 

The foods we eat?  OK what foods are smart?  No score.

 

Your circle of friends: OK no worries I figured out a good way to work that one.  Get a bunch of really smart people together, then mutually agree to be enemies.  But don?t let on.  Get together and pretend to tolerate each other?s revolting presence.  The unsuspecting judgmental types fall for it: they see the gathering and assume we are a bunch of friends, and that we are all smart, so I must be smart too.

 

Dave I like your list better: they are all defined:

 

>? some obvious omissions like:

 

Be polite and respectful.

Be a good listener.

Be open minded.

Pay attention.

Keep your promises.

 

>?I'm sure we could add dozens more.

 

-Dave

 

 

 

Well done sir.  I would add: is capable of solving a system of simultaneous differential equations with complex roots.  But that would give me an unfair advantage.

 

I like unfair advantages.

 

spike

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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Feb  2 13:58:29 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2021 21:58:29 +0800
Subject: [ExI] LIVE: Starship SN9 Flight Test
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy2-Z3aHrCL79G_7kwHXuMendUwcDvKVH8gnR6G8+26f6g@mail.gmail.com>

<https://www.youtube.com/> <https://www.youtube.com/>
<https://www.youtube.com/>
<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVO8YsD87ibqRGIJ7o8sOzg>
<https://www.youtube.com/>
<https://www.youtube.com/premium>
<https://www.youtube.com/premium>
<https://www.youtube.com/feed/storefront?bp=ogUCKAI%3D>
<https://www.youtube.com/feed/storefront?bp=ogUCKAI%3D>
<https://www.youtube.com/gaming> <https://www.youtube.com/gaming>
<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4R8DWoMoI7CAwX8_LjQHig>
<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4R8DWoMoI7CAwX8_LjQHig>
<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrpQ4p1Ql_hG8rKXIKM1MOQ>
<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrpQ4p1Ql_hG8rKXIKM1MOQ>
<https://www.youtube.com/account>
<https://www.youtube.com/account> <https://www.youtube.com/reporthistory>
<https://www.youtube.com/reporthistory>
I am disappointed that only 268,000 people are subscribed to
NASAspaceflight...
<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVO8YsD87ibqRGIJ7o8sOzg>
<https://www.youtube.com/premium>
<https://www.youtube.com/premium>
<https://www.youtube.com/feed/storefront?bp=ogUCKAI%3D>
<https://www.youtube.com/feed/storefront?bp=ogUCKAI%3D>
<https://www.youtube.com/gaming> <https://www.youtube.com/gaming>
<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4R8DWoMoI7CAwX8_LjQHig>
<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4R8DWoMoI7CAwX8_LjQHig>
<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrpQ4p1Ql_hG8rKXIKM1MOQ>
<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrpQ4p1Ql_hG8rKXIKM1MOQ>
<https://www.youtube.com/account>
<https://www.youtube.com/account> <https://www.youtube.com/reporthistory>
<https://www.youtube.com/reporthistory>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfHqbahPKpY
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Feb  2 14:14:58 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2021 22:14:58 +0800
Subject: [ExI] YT Video: What If You Traveled One Billion Years Into the
 Future?
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy0huMGsUCFn1yj2oHc9s1m9Qpy3fyjWzJMn63EXKL1Tig@mail.gmail.com>

I tend to think the creators of this video suffered from a lack of
imagination when it comes to envisioning the future godlike technological
abilities of humanity and our mind children to intervene with the life
cycles of our planet and sun...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXkO4HdQXdo
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From ipbrians at gmail.com  Tue Feb  2 16:18:00 2021
From: ipbrians at gmail.com (Ivor Brians)
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2021 08:18:00 -0800
Subject: [ExI] ARTS - Extropian poetry
In-Reply-To: <EBA17832-A340-4FFC-AAB6-695AA994F408@hxcore.ol>
References: <EBA17832-A340-4FFC-AAB6-695AA994F408@hxcore.ol>
Message-ID: <3C990932-843F-4449-9CC6-FAE725DEC4C9@hxcore.ol>

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Feb  2 18:27:42 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2021 12:27:42 -0600
Subject: [ExI] ARTS - Extropian poetry
In-Reply-To: <3C990932-843F-4449-9CC6-FAE725DEC4C9@hxcore.ol>
References: <EBA17832-A340-4FFC-AAB6-695AA994F408@hxcore.ol>
 <3C990932-843F-4449-9CC6-FAE725DEC4C9@hxcore.ol>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYi3qfxou2WJ-WM44FR--=6Y1MOY13gyYP_kqR5TdgEpQ@mail.gmail.com>

Good!  Keep up updated on the status of your book.  It really pains me to
think of the Amazon rainforest and all the construction.  bill w

On Tue, Feb 2, 2021 at 10:21 AM Ivor Brians via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> All, as a further introduction?
>
>
>
> When I first looked up ?extropian? years ago, I thought, ?that?s me!? I
> had always been introspective and would ponder why things are the way they
> are and why they are not better. I started exploring Eastern philosophies,
> read some sci-fi, looked at some writings of Nietzsche and thought of our
> continuing technological advances and thought, ?the answers are all
> here??some covered in dogma and corrupted or mistranslated or misunderstood
> or resisted, but the they are all here. So now, my external purpose is to
> in some way, even a small incremental way, to help move the human world
> onto a more sustainable and just path (just for all life).
>
>
>
> I?m working on my first book, sort of a Rainforest-meets-advanced aliens
> with a scientist hero, indefinite lifespans, a sister-world where residents
> grow blank-brain clones for transferring their consciousness to every few
> decades (and enjoy whatever genetic enhancements they choose which have
> been recently developed). It is a sort of save-the-world book in which I?ve
> woven a set of principles which I believe, if followed, would end all war.
>
>
>
> I am also a tropical rainforest conservationist and advocate, a ?haunter
> of forests? or ?nemophilist?.
>
>
>
> Well, that?s all for now (sorry, you asked for it?) ??
>
>
>
> Ivor Peter Brians
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Feb  3 18:21:32 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 12:21:32 -0600
Subject: [ExI] have we gone crazy?
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaA3YWwLVH=y=ao+Pq8QVwR0qCGfbxCbZ1OVNSty8stAQ@mail.gmail.com>

Today in the NYTimes:
Another thing you don?t hear from Texas: a board of education voting ? as
San Francisco?s just did
<https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/27/us/san-francisco-schools-lincoln-feinstein.html>
?
to strip the names of Abraham Lincoln, George Washington and Paul Revere
<https://www.forbes.com/sites/evangerstmann/2021/01/27/san-francisco-votes-to-remove-founding-fathers-names-from-schools-at-up-to-1-million-in-taxpayer-expense/?sh=2bee0054354b>
from
their respective schools, on grounds of sinning against the more recent
commandments of progressive dogma.

Who will we kick out next:  Ben Franklin?  Who are to be our heroes - those
who never did anything the current culture disapproves of?  (just what is
Lincoln accused of, anyway?).

These things send messages to our children, but what, exactly, I am not
sure of.  That people have to be perfect by one standard - the current one?

Teachers, I think, are really not allowed to teach values:  that would let
in religion and parents don't want teachers to do that.  So if a student
asks why Washington is being tossed out, what are the answers going to be?
Kids will be confused - just like I am.

bill w
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From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Feb  3 20:54:59 2021
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 15:54:59 -0500
Subject: [ExI] have we gone crazy?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaA3YWwLVH=y=ao+Pq8QVwR0qCGfbxCbZ1OVNSty8stAQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaA3YWwLVH=y=ao+Pq8QVwR0qCGfbxCbZ1OVNSty8stAQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbKr2iHyk1SvCZRO3oomETSC52TbTzdV8=91RU0Dp8TcWQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 3, 2021, 1:25 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> So if a student asks why Washington is being tossed out, what are the
> answers going to be?  Kids will be confused - just like I am.
>

"You don't <FNORD>question your <FNORD>teachers"

Seems pretty obvious, doesn't it?

>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Feb  4 02:12:22 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 10:12:22 +0800
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?New_=E2=80=98Liquid=E2=80=99_AI_Learns_Continuou?=
	=?utf-8?q?sly_From_Its_Experience_of_the_World?=
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1zYsSum5FXCbU8xZeXZyye05_hbFWGqwNwSpNZ8XRpaQ@mail.gmail.com>

"Whereas most machine learning algorithms can?t hone their skills beyond an
initial training period, the researchers say the new approach, called a
liquid neural network
<https://news.mit.edu/2021/machine-learning-adapts-0128>, has a kind of
built-in ?neuroplasticity.? That is, as it goes about its work?say, in the
future, maybe driving a car or directing a robot?it can learn from
experience and adjust its connections on the fly.

In a world that?s noisy and chaotic, such adaptability is essential."

https://singularityhub.com/2021/01/31/new-liquid-ai-learns-as-it-experiences-the-world-in-real-time/
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Feb  4 02:13:38 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 10:13:38 +0800
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Elon_Musk=E2=80=99s_=24100_Million_Carbon_Captur?=
 =?utf-8?q?e_Push?=
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1DAkHN5wbHTgK1b+XBko_CdOa19LwUhbLOidqqoQbcLg@mail.gmail.com>

"Even if the world rapidly ramps up climate action, most experts agree
that cutting
emissions is no longer enough to avert disaster. We also need to invest in
pulling CO2 out of the atmosphere, and that effort just got a major boost
after Elon Musk announced a $100 million
<https://www.nbcnews.com/science/environment/elon-musk-offer-100-million-prize-best-carbon-capture-tech-rcna234>
prize
<https://www.nbcnews.com/science/environment/elon-musk-offer-100-million-prize-best-carbon-capture-tech-rcna234>
for the technology.

For years, talk of technological solutions to directly counteract global
warming
<https://singularityhub.com/2021/01/28/scientists-want-to-fight-climate-change-by-spraying-dust-into-space-to-block-the-sun/>,
known as geoengineering
<https://singularityhub.com/2019/02/03/will-these-massive-geoengineering-projects-fix-the-earth-or-break-it-more/>,
were taboo among climate scientists. The topic was seen as a ?moral hazard?
<https://slate.com/technology/2016/01/geoengineering-might-give-people-an-excuse-to-ignore-climate-changes-causes.html>
because it was thought that the promise of a technical fix for global
warming could distract from efforts to reduce CO2 emissions.

But the sluggish global response to climate change has forced a
recalculation. Even the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change now
estimates that we will need to be pulling somewhere in the range of three
to seven <https://www.ipcc.ch/sr15/> gigatons of CO2
<https://www.ipcc.ch/sr15/> out of the atmosphere every year by 2050, and
up to 15 gigatons by the end of the century if we want to meet the goal of
limiting warming to 1.5? C."

https://singularityhub.com/2021/02/01/elon-musks-100-million-push-for-carbon-capture/
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Feb  4 02:17:39 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 10:17:39 +0800
Subject: [ExI] This Hive-Like House Is 3D Printed, Carbon-Neutral,
 and Made of Clay
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy0QuYnNhDP4n=sG7b95Cu0m+nd_8J50Cq5BUOAfDbh0gQ@mail.gmail.com>

"For starters, as mentioned above, the house is built entirely from
material taken from the local terrain. You?re probably thinking, ok, sure,
I guess you can build a house from ?local terrain? if that terrain happens
to be durable, moldable, non-toxic clay, and you live in an area that?s not
too hot, not too cold, and not too rainy.

But according to <https://www.3dwasp.com/en/3d-printed-house-tecla/> the
project?s creators, the house and its source materials are ?adaptable to
any climate and context.? WASP is even selling what it calls a Maker
Economy Starter Kit <https://www.3dwasp.com/?page_id=19347>; it consists of
four 3D printers and a system for picking, mixing, and pumping local
materials to print with. The company hopes its technology will be used to
facilitate housing projects in remote areas.

Unlike other projects that use one printer on rails, this structure employs
two printers working simultaneously. Printing a TECLA house takes 200 hours
and uses 7,000 computer codes. The printed layers are 12 millimeters thick,
and you need 350 of them total. The volume of ?natural materials? required
is listed as 60 cubic meters, and the energy consumed in the building
process is a mere 6 kilowatts."

https://singularityhub.com/2021/02/03/this-hive-like-house-is-3d-printed-carbon-neutral-and-made-of-clay/
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Feb  4 04:37:38 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 12:37:38 +0800
Subject: [ExI] ARTS - Extropian poetry
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYi3qfxou2WJ-WM44FR--=6Y1MOY13gyYP_kqR5TdgEpQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <EBA17832-A340-4FFC-AAB6-695AA994F408@hxcore.ol>
 <3C990932-843F-4449-9CC6-FAE725DEC4C9@hxcore.ol>
 <CAO+xQEYi3qfxou2WJ-WM44FR--=6Y1MOY13gyYP_kqR5TdgEpQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy26fW_J1n51M0yW08fHXyMtGxNBxzo=4sM1oMXM4zzemQ@mail.gmail.com>

Ivor, I am really looking forward to reading some of your transhumanist
poetry! And I will definitely be reading your upcoming sf novel...

John  : )

On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 2:31 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Good!  Keep up updated on the status of your book.  It really pains me to
> think of the Amazon rainforest and all the construction.  bill w
>
> On Tue, Feb 2, 2021 at 10:21 AM Ivor Brians via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> All, as a further introduction?
>>
>>
>>
>> When I first looked up ?extropian? years ago, I thought, ?that?s me!? I
>> had always been introspective and would ponder why things are the way they
>> are and why they are not better. I started exploring Eastern philosophies,
>> read some sci-fi, looked at some writings of Nietzsche and thought of our
>> continuing technological advances and thought, ?the answers are all
>> here??some covered in dogma and corrupted or mistranslated or misunderstood
>> or resisted, but the they are all here. So now, my external purpose is to
>> in some way, even a small incremental way, to help move the human world
>> onto a more sustainable and just path (just for all life).
>>
>>
>>
>> I?m working on my first book, sort of a Rainforest-meets-advanced aliens
>> with a scientist hero, indefinite lifespans, a sister-world where residents
>> grow blank-brain clones for transferring their consciousness to every few
>> decades (and enjoy whatever genetic enhancements they choose which have
>> been recently developed). It is a sort of save-the-world book in which I?ve
>> woven a set of principles which I believe, if followed, would end all war.
>>
>>
>>
>> I am also a tropical rainforest conservationist and advocate, a ?haunter
>> of forests? or ?nemophilist?.
>>
>>
>>
>> Well, that?s all for now (sorry, you asked for it?) ??
>>
>>
>>
>> Ivor Peter Brians
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Feb  4 05:05:42 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 13:05:42 +0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?12_Little_Things_That_Show_People_You=E2=80=99re?=
	=?utf-8?q?_Intelligent?=
In-Reply-To: <01b401d6f8da$6d44c230$47ce4690$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAM5aL2ckmvS+cufjENdCGEP9xVjg0yTwoDagvM92+jyjznPR2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <01b401d6f8da$6d44c230$47ce4690$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy0b=OQPjE2Xf_WzSkS5MF+vyjPjVTNb2VtzM5gZu+5+Og@mail.gmail.com>

I view intelligence and wisdom as two different things, though definitely
related. And now there is a formal academic study of wisdom, which I find
fascinating. This list of key qualities of the wise is taken from Stephen
S. Hall 's book, "Wisdom: From Philosophy to Neuroscience..."

"1. *Emotion Regulation* ? Studies at Stanford University, including brain
imaging experiments, have shown that older people process emotion
differently than younger people on average. They are less likely to dwell
on the negative, tend to value relationships more, and rebound from
setbacks more quickly.

2. *Compassion* ? Electrophysiological measurements of the brains of
Buddhist monks in the midst of compassion meditation have identified a
unique pattern of brain activation, known as a ?gamma oscillation,? which
may coordinate and synchronize mental activity in disparate parts of the
brain during empathic understanding and acts of loving-kindness.

3. *Moral Judgment* ? Cognitive neuroscientists, in a series of brain
scanning experiments over the past decade, have identified a neural circuit
involved in moral reasoning, and have shown that moral judgment can change
depending on whether we are physically close to another person (?up close
and personal? judgments) or are acting at a distance.

4. *Humility* ? Business psychologists have shown that the combination of
intense professional will and extreme personal humility are *the* essential
traits in turning a good company into a great company; by contrast, CEOs
who rank high in narcissism measures tend to be leaders?but bad ones. They
put personal drama and egotism ahead of company performance.

5. *Altruism* ? Scientists have used brain-scanning experiments to identify
a tentative circuitry in the brain that monitors situations of social
injustice, and seems to prompt a form of behavior known as altruistic
punishment?decisions in which a person sacrifices personal gain to punish a
rule-breaker.

6. *Patience* ? A sense of imagination about the future, a capacity which
resides in the brain?s prefrontal cortex, helps suppress the impulse for
immediate gratification, according to brain scanning experiments, and helps
people plan goals and remain optimistic about the future.

7. *Sound Judgment* ? Building on a huge amount of neuroscience that has
been investigating decision-making, scientists are now teasing apart the
process of neural valuation?how the brain attaches value to various
choices. This may turn out to be the neural answer to a question asked by
philosophers for centuries about the central challenge of wisdom: how do we
decide what is most important?

8. *Dealing with Uncertainty* ? Scientists at Princeton University, UCLA
and elsewhere have been investigating how the brain reacts when it
encounters the unexpected. Animal experiments suggest that habit allows us
to react more quickly when the world is unchanging, but that in an
environment of great flux, habit slows down our neural ability to adapt to
changing circumstances."

https://partiallyexaminedlife.com/2012/07/16/wisdom-studies/

This was taken from the U of Penn website and was written by Ben Dean, PhD.
And so if wisdom is a predictor of successful aging, I had better start
getting wise! Lol
Interesting Research Findings About Wisdom
"Wisdom is a positive predictor of successful aging.  In fact, wisdom is
more robustly linked to the well-being of older people than objective life
circumstances such as physical health, financial well-being, and physical
environment (Ardelt, 1997; Baltes, Smith, & Staudinger, 1992; Bianchi,
1994; Clayton, 1982; Hartman, 2000).

In a fascinating study of women through midlife, Hartman (2000) found that
those women who made major changes in the domains of love and work were
higher in the development of wisdom by midlife. Interestingly, she found
that making life changes in the 30s appeared to have a particularly
positive effect on the development of wisdom.

Experiencing stressful life events across time can facilitate the
development of wisdom--up to a point.  People seem to benefit from
stressful life experiences, particularly if they respond well to them.  But
as the ratio of negative to positive life experiences tips in favor of the
negative, wisdom is inhibited (Hartman, 2000).

Wisdom is distinct from intelligence as measured by IQ tests (Sternberg,
2000).  Indeed, Sternberg goes so far as to suggest that intelligent,
well-educated people are particularly susceptible to four fallacies that
inhibit wise choices and actions.  You can read more about these fallacies
in Sternberg's entertaining book Why Smart People Can Be So Stupid (2003),
but I will summarize them here.  As you read the list, see if you can
generate relevant examples of famous political and business leaders who
have been susceptible to these fallacies!


   - The Egocentrism Fallacy: thinking that the world revolves, or at least
   should revolve, around you.  Acting in ways that benefit yourself,
   regardless of how that behavior affects others.
   - The Omniscience Fallacy: believing that you know all there is to know
   and therefore do not have to listen to the advice and counsel of others.
   - The Omnipotence Fallacy: believing that your intelligence and
   education somehow make you all-powerful.
   - The Invulnerability Fallacy: believing that you can do whatever you
   want and that others will never be able to hurt you or expose you.

Developing Wisdom
In addition to watching out for the four fallacies listed above, consider
the following wisdom-building activities compiled, in part, by psychologist
Jonathan Haidt:


   - Read the works of great thinkers and religious leaders (e.g., Gandhi,
   Buddha, Jesus, Mother Theresa, Nelson Mandela).  Read classic works of
   literature.  Contemplate the "wisdom of the ages."
   - Think of the wisest person you know. Try to live each day as that
   person would live.
   - Look up prominent people in history and learn their views on important
   issues of their day.
   - Volunteer at a nursing home and talk with residents about their lives
   and the lessons they have learned.
   - Subscribe to two news editorial publications that are on opposite ends
   of the political spectrum (e.g., The National Review for the conservative
   perspective and The Nation for the liberal perspective).  Read them both
   and consider both sides of the issues.

Remember that wisdom, like all of the character strengths we will cover in
this series, exists on a continuum and can be developed with effort."

I like the pointers he gave for developing wisdom in one's life. What would
you add to his list?

https://www.authentichappiness.sas.upenn.edu/newsletters/authentichappinesscoaching/wisdom

John  : )

On Tue, Feb 2, 2021 at 4:44 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *?*> *On Behalf Of *Dave Sill via extropy-chat
>
> *Subject:* [ExI] 12 Little Things That Show People You?re Intelligent
>
>
>
>
> https://medium.com/the-ascent/12-little-things-that-show-people-youre-intelligent-without-you-having-to-say-it-a9dd8f34f53f
>
>
>
> TL;DR:
>
>
>
> 1. Showing up on time.
>
> 2. Dressing appropriately.
>
> 3. Remembering the little things.
>
> 4. Holding the door open.
>
> 5. The art on your walls.
>
> 6. Your shoes.
>
> 7. When you take notes.
>
> 8. The state of your desktop.
>
> 9. Spending money wisely.
>
> 10. How you invest your time.
>
> 11. The foods you eat.
>
> 12. Your circle of friends.
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
> Dave, the interesting thing about this is that so many of them are
> undefined.  For instance? dressing appropriately.  Who gets to decide what
> that is?  The latest fashion designer?  If someone buys and wears that
> fashion when it isn?t practical doesn?t indicate intelligence to me, it
> indicates gullibility which is nearly the opposite.
>
>
>
> Consider the really objectively-smart crowd, as measured by stellar
> performance on a competition math test.  Sure, it is argued the geek crowd
> really isn?t intelligent, because they are nerdy and socially maladjusted.
> Well I ain?t buying it.  They are intelligent.  But? we do dress weird.  We
> show up at a funeral in a T-shirt with Maxwell?s equations on there and
> crap like that.  I see it as not so much a lack of intelligence but rather
> a strict dedication to hardcore non-conformity.
>
>
>
> Remembering little things: I am a champion there, for I can name by memory
> all the subatomic particles in the mainstream quantum theories.  But that
> might not be what they meant.
>
>
>
> Holding the door open: eh depends.  I remember doing that and getting
> yelled at: Close the damn door!  You?re letting flies out!
>
>
>
> Art on your walls.  Heh.  That can be anything.  It says more about the
> judgmental yahoo deciding he is an art critic and assuming he is
> intelligent.  Harumph.  (Hey cool I may be on the road to recovery from
> becoming post-ghost Scrooge.  I have scarcely harumphed in months.)
>
>
>
> Shoes.  Shoes, well OK I will buy that one.  Some shoes really are just
> stupid.  Those spike heel thingies, oh mercy.  Risky.  I come close to
> hurting myself every time I put them on, and never mind the risk of
> forgetting and answering the doorbell, having the neighbor see me in them.
> Dumb.  Don?t go there.  While not there, stay not there.
>
>
>
> When you take notes.  I will buy that.  Doing that during a lecture:
> smart.  Doing that while driving: not smart.
>
>
>
> State of your desktop: note he didn?t actually specify what that state
> should be to indicate intelligence, so no actual information there.
>
>
>
> Spending money wisely: subjective.  No score.
>
>
>
> How you invest your time: again subjective.  The writer is really saying
> if you choose to invest your time the same way she does, then she will
> consider you intelligent.  But she doesn?t say.  No score.
>
>
>
> The foods we eat?  OK what foods are smart?  No score.
>
>
>
> Your circle of friends: OK no worries I figured out a good way to work
> that one.  Get a bunch of really smart people together, then mutually agree
> to be enemies.  But don?t let on.  Get together and pretend to tolerate
> each other?s revolting presence.  The unsuspecting judgmental types fall
> for it: they see the gathering and assume we are a bunch of friends, and
> that we are all smart, so I must be smart too.
>
>
>
> Dave I like your list better: they are all defined:
>
>
>
> >? some obvious omissions like:
>
>
>
> Be polite and respectful.
>
> Be a good listener.
>
> Be open minded.
>
> Pay attention.
>
> Keep your promises.
>
>
>
> >?I'm sure we could add dozens more.
>
>
>
> -Dave
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Well done sir.  I would add: is capable of solving a system of
> simultaneous differential equations with complex roots.  But that would
> give me an unfair advantage.
>
>
>
> I like unfair advantages.
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Feb  4 05:08:37 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 13:08:37 +0800
Subject: [ExI] very stimulating
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.21.2101311231370.16037@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.21.2101311231370.16037@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3tfurbYFF32upNkVP0xaXKk8pfVoae4sw9H0ck5FRVKQ@mail.gmail.com>

The people I know put their stimulus money into crypto...

John

On Mon, Feb 1, 2021 at 2:35 AM Bill Hibbard via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> > Them fokes dunno know to spell.  It's 'gummint'.   bill w
>
> Indeed:
>
> https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fthumbs.worthpoint.com%2Fzoom%2Fimages3%2F1%2F1014%2F02%2Foriginal-pogo-daily-comic-strip-walt_1_65f560672afcf4dd5526fe8efb6b74c0.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.worthpoint.com%2Fworthopedia%2Foriginal-pogo-daily-comic-strip-walt-1114915691&tbnid=zlVxyCAhc8ntdM&vet=12ahUKEwjr2fv15sbuAhUIZM0KHftnBK0QMygCegQIARBT..i&docid=67obbV6XOOaXpM&w=327&h=400&q=pogo%20gummint&ved=2ahUKEwjr2fv15sbuAhUIZM0KHftnBK0QMygCegQIARBT
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Feb  4 05:12:28 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 13:12:28 +0800
Subject: [ExI] oppenheimer
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYHaLuOmpNJes6eL39ai5jb88MgGaPCzPWFth-q=oU3zA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYHaLuOmpNJes6eL39ai5jb88MgGaPCzPWFth-q=oU3zA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3F2GtG6143g-v1m+7oh09k3ufP0iuGa2RDu7rohTvjxA@mail.gmail.com>

I will have to check the book out. Robert Sawyer is a well established and
very talented author. As I read your post, I recalled a classic Marvel
Comics "What If" issue where the atomic bomb drops on Japan create several
hundred Japanese versions of The Hulk/Bruce Banner, which go on to conquer
the world and create the ultimate Empire of the Rising Sun!

John


On Sun, Jan 31, 2021 at 8:12 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Just finished a scifi book by Robert Sawyer, whose books I have read
> before and enjoyed, and who has written a book named The Oppenheimer
> Alternative.
>
> It combines history of the making of the bomb with fictional accounts and
> a scifi twist.  I found it very interesting and can recommend it.
>
> bill w
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Feb  4 05:23:05 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 13:23:05 +0800
Subject: [ExI] how does it work?
In-Reply-To: <002901d6f6ad$b3115140$1933f3c0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZFR=Yrn6ifOEjzq+cbMcPw34KeCaR2xZscx9Hjdu4Fgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <002901d6f6ad$b3115140$1933f3c0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1HsgACWNEpMw=xQE+Vpa=P2=J=+nK=LOh+2-sAsD0eYA@mail.gmail.com>

In the Philippines, the original government official assigned to decide on
the best vaccine for the money and buy it, was investigated when he was not
making any progress. It turned out he was waiting for a vaccine maker to
treat him with the appropriate respect and pay a huge bribe! But long
before the common people here began to be vaccinated, a few thousand
vaccine doses were stealthily obtained and given out to the super-rich and
the leading politicians. God forbid any of them get sick...

John

On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 10:17 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Sent:* Friday, January 29, 2021 6:04 PM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>;
> extropolis at googlegroups.com
> *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* [ExI] how does it work?
>
>
>
> Are the people making the vaccine getting rich?  Are they getting any
> price they ask for?  Is there a possible monopoly here?  If they are
> getting so rich, why can't they open new labs to meet the demand and get
> even richer?  Are there supply problems?
>
>
>
> Just asking 'What's the holdup?'   bill w
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> A person who knows things clued me exactly on that Billw.  Turns out the
> supply was not really the most limiting factor in many cases.  The
> bottleneck was in getting enough qualified people to watch the recipients
> for allergic reactions.  That turned out to be a bigger challenge than
> expected, because not just anybody can do that.  The recipients need to be
> kept apart as they wait for half an hour or so, and that takes a lotta
> floor under a roof, which costs money.  It takes a lotta people to watch
> them and people cost money.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Feb  4 05:32:32 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 13:32:32 +0800
Subject: [ExI] robin hood steals from the poor protects the rich?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZs9wdk5RJpy9WSza8QzMi0GN_nH9F5qdYoSoBZvVpjfw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001601d6f5df$38e85270$aab8f750$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNSQ2wHJse0yjoj-nxRS1d8jATNujB=Sh38WDMWdNUA1=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901d6f5f0$4c3caf90$e4b60eb0$@rainier66.com>
 <006901d6f5f4$69626610$3c273230$@rainier66.com>
 <008b01d6f64a$f3cb5450$db61fcf0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbKmu4Ox2GKzwycpekkODuUQkkquOTSSTE+SmkcCq4Lcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTTmFxGJSdORfxpCX-g260DucnjU83QwUT-RW1bn3fLBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZs9wdk5RJpy9WSza8QzMi0GN_nH9F5qdYoSoBZvVpjfw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1pGPUTr-kh7rR=Q7rKQO3wrCU4mxvctpm+rQ20s7f_rg@mail.gmail.com>

 William Flynn Wallace wrote:
"I don't have any figures, but my guess is that a car that has 20 or 30 K
miles is a more reliable car than a new one because it has had its kinks
worked out, if any.  But I pity the person who is rather naive' about cars
and their salesmen, and is buying a used car.  Never mind the car itself-
most people do not know how to negotiate.

Oh bring back home finances, and home economics in schools and teach people
something they can use their whole lives and save beaucoups of money."

Or a person could simply do a google search on how to negotiate/haggle with
used car dealers! After reading two or three articles on the subject, they
would have at least some idea of how to do it successfully. But of course
having a big brother/father/uncle/friend/mom who knows how to do it and
shows them firsthand, cannot be underestimated.

John


On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 2:20 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I have never bought a lemon.  I did get cheated on a Toyota that had 60K
> miles, or so I thought.  It was in great shape.  My mechanic said that it
> was probably 160K.
>
> It's been some decades since I bought off a lot.  When I did, I got a 30
> day warranty or I did not buy the car.  I buy from individuals and get it
> checked out by a mechanic.  Latest buy:  2002 Town Car, 32K, not one thing
> you could see wrong with it.  Looked new.  Little old lady
> owner, literally, and garaged.  Had to replace tires.  $7000.
>
> I am truly a picky person but with a professor's income and pension, I
> cannot afford to be really picky.
>
> As for lemons, there are new cars that are lemons too.  A used car owner
> has usually found out before I buy the car what lemony things went wrong
> and fixed them (or tried to sell it to me without fixing them, which my
> mechanic catches).
>
> The only real problem I have ever had, aside from the car with the
> 'adjusted' mileage, was a Town Car that kept not wanting to crank.  (Twice
> I had it towed in and then it refused to NOT crank.  aAArrrgggghhhh!!!).  I
> replaced two computers on it, which did not fix it, and sold it and lost
> money on the deal.  Not a bad track record for buying cars since 1968.
>
> I don't have any figures, but my guess is that a car that has 20 or 30 K
> miles is a more reliable car than a new one because it has had its kinks
> worked out, if any.  But I pity the person who is rather naive' about cars
> and their salesmen, and is buying a used car.  Never mind the car itself-
> most people do not know how to negotiate.
>
> Oh bring back home finances, and home economics in schools and teach
> people something they can use their whole lives and save beaucoups of
> money.  bill w
>
> On Fri, Jan 29, 2021 at 11:10 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Jan 29, 2021 at 6:29 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Adrian might know the real story.
>>>
>>
>> Nope, sorry.  I heard something like that, but I haven't been tracking
>> Tesla closely until recently.
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 29, 2021 at 7:04 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I am willing to put up with a couple of dings here and there and maybe
>>> replace the floor mats.
>>>
>>
>> You are.  Some aren't.  They can pay more for a new car, to compensate
>> for their more picky tastes.
>>
>> There's also reputation: they think new cars are more reliable than
>> used.  "Used car salesman" - someone who pushes lemons and tries to hide
>> the lemon nature - is a stereotype for a reason, though it gets exaggerated
>> (especially in states that enforce lemon laws).
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Feb  4 05:43:31 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 13:43:31 +0800
Subject: [ExI] where are these people?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZOCqqz=B0UBydcyuzjU-e=y9VBjwgsfzndiz36fUvSuQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa3LmDoqbKPc7Ot0zecMGuF5PSkwguj=LCpud11m75SzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <00aa01d6f4e9$9e731db0$db595910$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbPtJpGzNyQpUf-3Gr_2VNSMhHes9r-Y3W2VAMMtnKzyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNStV4n=1ULvCW8J+_xhoMH+HdpMnaWdTEoViJaPmZjAxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <008f01d6f510$d8cec640$8a6c52c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZOCqqz=B0UBydcyuzjU-e=y9VBjwgsfzndiz36fUvSuQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy33NVriLMZXXHdJ0rbgzTCu6VsBFxCjn0Wc_qp7ZWYu6g@mail.gmail.com>

This thread "spiked" my memory and caused me to think about how during
Ronald Reagan's presidency, he gave a speech and a woman stopped him as he
finished and was walking away from the pulpit. In a loud voice she went on
and on praising him for his powerful masculinity and manly physique! Lol
She came across as seriously nuts, but the president listened in sort of a
shocked silence, though he did seem to enjoy the praise.

*"**Sapiosexual* <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sapiosexual> :
of, relating to, or characterized by sexual or romantic attraction to
highly intelligent people"

In my experience sapiosexuality usually only occurs when combined with good
looks... Go figure! Lol I had some extremely bright friends in college and
beyond who the girls totally ignored.

John


On Thu, Jan 28, 2021 at 11:30 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 7:01 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
>> Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
>>
>>
>>
>> >>Let's hear it for pansexuality!  bill w
>>
>>
>>
>> >?Not everyone is attracted to kitchen hardware.  ??
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> But Adrian, they are really sexy.  I have some Teflon ones, oh mercy.  I
>> don?t understand not getting turned on by those things.
>>
>>
>>
>> spike
>>
>> Better watch it, Spike - you might earn a new nickname:  Slick.  bill w
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Feb  4 05:55:08 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 13:55:08 +0800
Subject: [ExI] you can walk a cat, if he lets you
In-Reply-To: <0f99067b-1fcc-aeea-fdfd-82434139c63e@pobox.com>
References: <mailman.126.1611523450.2214.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <6ec345dac4fdb5505bab98e8d45f5b93@ultimax.com>
 <CAO+xQEYLPghVGemrfXdDuHi7m1DyWfFxgkMNba8dtq=Lp1Ko5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <0f99067b-1fcc-aeea-fdfd-82434139c63e@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy0GXbeDXxBBVz0MiWCzTesWm-YcXKH5yUzKAYCFr5OhbQ@mail.gmail.com>

My stepfather had a small grey tabby that we nicknamed "Killer." This cat
was a master hunter and some days we would find mice and birds neatly
stacked in rows, to show off his kills to the family. I have never seen
another cat that lived to hunt, like this one did. But our pet could not
tolerate another feline in the large yard, and would immediately attack
them. This resulted in some nasty fights, which made our vet an even richer
man! At a certain point this cat was missing most of one ear, blind in one
eye, and had lost half of his tail.The only human being he tolerated/loved
was my stepfather.

John

On Thu, Jan 28, 2021 at 7:27 AM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On 2021-1-25 15:20, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:
> > I've only had one Siamese and he was a joy - very smart and kind of
> > a joker.  I woke up one night to some strange noise.  Went into the
> > kitchen and Jack (he had one eye) was having a terrific time with a leaf.
>
> I had a black cat whom I suspected of some Siamese ancestry, because of
> his long legs and distinctive voice.  He brought home animal prey just
> once (a little snake) but often brought home leaves.
>
> --
> *\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Feb  4 05:56:17 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 13:56:17 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Mass production of thousands of humanoid robots starts
 this year.
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjD0W+ER0dUf7EZXrw1tvTDSzmiKomXCwqaH94--t6FoA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjD0W+ER0dUf7EZXrw1tvTDSzmiKomXCwqaH94--t6FoA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy0fCUOo6SHp66SW+2McSDFhW_wqSgAhVT23817EVdJ-gA@mail.gmail.com>

*IT BEGINS!!!!!!*

On Thu, Jan 28, 2021 at 3:22 AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Hong-Kong based company Hanson Robotics will roll out four new models
> in the first half of 2021 after its humanoid robot Sophia went viral
> in 2016.
>
> <
> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/sophia-the-robot-makers-hansen-robotics-to-mass-produce-thousands-of-humanoid-machines/ar-BB1d4zIB
> >
>
> Quotes:
> Hanson believes robotic solutions are not only a response to the
> pandemic, but can also be applied to the realm of healthcare, and the
> retail and airline industry.
> "Sophia and Hanson robots are unique by being so human-like," he
> added. "That can be so useful during these times where people are
> terribly lonely and socially isolated."
>
> Sophia, whose artificial intelligence allows her to express 50
> emotions and process conversational and emotional data, agrees.
> "Social robots like me can take care of the sick or elderly," she
> explained. "I can help communicate, give therapy and provide social
> stimulation, even in difficult situations."
> ---------------
>
> This article includes a video of the Sophia robot.
> While still early technology and obviously non-human, it shows how the
> tech is progressing and will continue to improve.
> (Note - the Sophia robot is not a sex-bot. More like a mobile chat-bot
> at this stage of development).
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Feb  4 05:58:58 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 13:58:58 +0800
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] efficacy of supplements
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onv2rwJJMBZ=tsvihAbs=8p+YmvtXVkqj2SWX6Si+fV_bg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEauT_prJQ3VEOOHkJQsLg7__mY1LL2at1ec-8ktN0Db9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onv2rwJJMBZ=tsvihAbs=8p+YmvtXVkqj2SWX6Si+fV_bg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1EBUR1AcBbRqFwz6dNhSuG+V9vEV_nKkFey-YVBgFoJA@mail.gmail.com>

How many of you have heard the joke, "Americans have the most expensive
urine in the world?" Lol I suppose we would not need supplements so much if
we all ate truly healthy and balanced diets.

John


On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 6:22 AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> What does everyone take for supplements?
> I take this stack, which seems to be quite complete.
> https://thrivous.com/products/thrivous-stack
> Am I missing anything?
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 7:02 PM William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Lack of evidence does not stop them from working.  I have osteoarthritis
>> everywhere you can have it:  hips, spine, shoulders and so on.  I have no
>> pain.
>>
>> I take several supplements labeled as anti-inflammatory, but I suspect
>> the main one is curcurmin.  I was taking Naproxen but some side effects of
>> long term use dissuaded me from taking it so I stopped and tried these
>> supplements.
>>
>> If it's a placebo effect, it's a giant one.
>>
>> bill w
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "extropolis" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAO%2BxQEauT_prJQ3VEOOHkJQsLg7__mY1LL2at1ec-8ktN0Db9w%40mail.gmail.com
>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAO%2BxQEauT_prJQ3VEOOHkJQsLg7__mY1LL2at1ec-8ktN0Db9w%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>> .
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Feb  4 06:01:24 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 14:01:24 +0800
Subject: [ExI] credulousness
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaC1LjY1XMUHsCNbPGbUrM8DnJ8Rn43EiHZ8VhxaWV+4g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaC1LjY1XMUHsCNbPGbUrM8DnJ8Rn43EiHZ8VhxaWV+4g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3FdXE_28j573CJ3NX2TKUCXhWCedpo0UUR6D5PZ1QAXA@mail.gmail.com>

I hang out at times on a very conservative forum to hear their views, and
it amazes me just how plain paranoid they can be!

John

On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 2:00 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Those hoping to sway public opinion are shocked and/or delighted by the
> successes of the fake news of the previous years.  How many of the people
> who stormed the Capitol were liberals?  You are right!  Few.  Here is a
> study (read the abstract and the discussion only to save time) that finds
> that fake news is mostly believed by conservatives IF the news is negative.
>
> "When information concerns hazards, erroneous incredulity is often more
> costly than erroneous credulity, given that disregarding accurate warnings
> is more harmful than adopting unnecessary precautions."
> If the news is potentially positive, there is no asymmetry between
> liberals and conservatives.
>
> https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0956797617692108
>
> bill w
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Feb  4 06:07:03 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 14:07:03 +0800
Subject: [ExI] the science might be wrong
In-Reply-To: <001f01d6f3e7$401b1540$c0513fc0$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.130.1611616875.2214.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <5501ffa1-e3a1-6dff-2c5e-da7ffb8eeacc@zaiboc.net>
 <001f01d6f3e7$401b1540$c0513fc0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy36hSWSnZTeyY2om0p52ihR060AZi5jm0D8ap-UtGmozQ@mail.gmail.com>

 Ja Ben, but that's the irony: masked people imagine they aren't contagious,
even those wearing the phony nylon MINOs.  But they think I am radioactive
if I don't have one.  So they stay back, which is good, because that is what
keeps us both safe, not their phony pretend mask.  So I refuse to wear a
mask outdoors for safety reasons.

In the Philippines that is unfortunately not an option. But what gets me is
how mask wearing, face shield wearing and social distancing is so strongly
enforced in public, but when people go home, all the young kids in the
neighborhood play with each other without wearing masks! And adult
neighbors will socialize, again without masks or doing proper social
distancing! Will the virus play by these rules? Lol Considering how the
pandemic here is on the counterattack, I would say no.

I just hope they don't use a China made vaccine here, since they have been
shown to only be around 50% effective, which is pretty pathetic.

John


On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 9:31 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
> Ben
> Zaiboc via extropy-chat
>
> On 25/01/2021 23:21, Spike wrote:
> > Masks may or may not help.  But distance always does.  Distance is your
> friend.
>
> Indeed. I keep my distance from almost everybody by staying in the house.
> Occasionally go out for food when it's quiet, and exercise on my bike a
> couple of times a week, or a jog around the block early when there's not
> many people about.
>
> No mask can compare to that kind of behaviour for effectiveness, I reckon.
>
> --
> Ben Zaiboc
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Ja Ben, but that's the irony: masked people imagine they aren't contagious,
> even those wearing the phony nylon MINOs.  But they think I am radioactive
> if I don't have one.  So they stay back, which is good, because that is
> what
> keeps us both safe, not their phony pretend mask.  So I refuse to wear a
> mask outdoors for safety reasons.
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Feb  4 06:11:57 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 14:11:57 +0800
Subject: [ExI] rent a dog
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaxmh2NvGXe0VN_V-skPCRnV5fHr7wZf1e+mYW-qUFNZQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006a01d6f285$547452d0$fd5cf870$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armj4WRrxSO17eVcv=yrUKEYT5jUHy2ys7LwPA9HGR4zT0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armiG-W=7WMDEcnA9sXes7+HXiU2QNNCP84G6BZn4eYurHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00bf01d6f29c$27a800f0$76f802d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEaxmh2NvGXe0VN_V-skPCRnV5fHr7wZf1e+mYW-qUFNZQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy2-Tyjmk9D0cNSHk4U3-E3yLZ5Mw2h5ARt9QK6mB+W+oQ@mail.gmail.com>

I found it sad how in the Philippines dogs are seen in a painfully
utilitarian way. My neighbors keep some of their dogs in relatively small
outdoor cages, where the canines are used as sentries. Yes, the animals are
fed and taken for a short walk each day, but that is it. The poor dogs face
hour after hour after hour locked in those cages, and sometimes I hear them
crying at night, which breaks my heart. When I brought this up to my
neighbors, they shrugged their shoulders and said that I talk like a
privileged American.

John

On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 1:39 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Reprehensible beasts are cats, vicious predators, merciless.  Dogs just
> like to be with their peeps.  spike
>   Granted that they are killers, they are a lot of fun, and not only as
> kittens (always get two; they are hilarious together).  In those very
> rare times I have been without a cat I immediately went and got a couple.  Almost
> all of them are introverted, like me.  So I leave them alone most of the
> time and they leave me alone most of the time.  Every cat I have ever had
> had a distinct personality - more than dogs I would say.  We call them
> pets.  I do like to pet them and make them purr.  I do like to give them
> people tuna (only once a week - the proteins are too strong for their
> kidneys if eaten
> too often).  "They are just substitute children."  That person does not
> have a clue as to how much you
> can love a cat.  Of course in my case, I would love goats, weasels and
> more (no snakes - too cold).
>
> And if you think that dogs are not killers, just starve one and see the
> edible population of the neigh-
> borhood diminish rapidly.  But, you say, even well-fed cats will kill.
> True - just doing their job and getting some different protein.  My cats
> are older and usually bring their prey into the house (often
> moles) and hardly ever eat them. - just to play with.  Occasionally we
> find remains behind the sofa, sometimes we have a mad chase around the
> house, with the cats watching curiously (do we think we are cats?), and manage
> to catch a few  They did hide though when we were chasing a possum.   bill w
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 24, 2021 at 4:00 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> >...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat
>> Subject: Re: [ExI] rent a dog
>>
>> On Sun, 24 Jan 2021 at 21:23, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Cats do play that game!  It just takes a little bit of training to get
>> > them used to the harness.
>> > Loads of videos.........
>> > <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=taking+cats+for+a+walk&t=ffab&atb=v154-1&ia
>> > r=videos&iax=videos&ia=videos>
>> >
>> > (And you have to put up with all the strange looks you get).   :)
>> >
>> > BillK
>> ----------------------------------------
>>
>> >...But the project of 'Guide cats for the blind'  was a bit of a
>> disaster.
>> :)
>>
>>
>> BillK
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>> Think of all the different jobs humans have found for dogs: search and
>> rescue, varmint control, guide, pulling sleds, tracking, military, herding
>> sheep, guard, guiding the blind, catching frisbees, police, racing,
>> hunting,
>> emotional support, drug detection, of course companionship and endless
>> entertainment, and that's just the things I can think of easily.
>>
>> What the heck have we been able to get cats to actually do for us?
>> Catching
>> mice and companionship (after a tepid fashion (when they are in the
>> mood.))
>> They do catch mice which is certainly useful but one gets the feeling
>> their
>> motive is not to benefit the kibble-suppliers, to which they appear mostly
>> indifferent.  Rather they do that single useful activity only because it
>> allows them to play their favorite game: Kill Something.
>>
>> My apologies cat-lovers.  I completely understand: dogs don't generally do
>> so well indoors, but cats do.  A cat is better than the other choices if
>> one
>> wishes another life form in the home and one does not care for yappy
>> little
>> lap dogs.
>>
>> spike
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Feb  4 06:16:16 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 14:16:16 +0800
Subject: [ExI] good signs
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZvuu2bhi95an6h5_=ydcaESdBGsH-xmLUbELiSnwoaSQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZvuu2bhi95an6h5_=ydcaESdBGsH-xmLUbELiSnwoaSQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1GfeXk-iFzXAK=QtnFjVj5KG1GyG=Ruww_nVceDJiq3g@mail.gmail.com>

I love that Mitch McConnell's power has been checked, by the Republicans no
longer dominating the senate! Huzzah!!! Now the president can get things
done!

John  :  )

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 12:09 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> A Jew elected to the Senate from a Southern state.  A Black elected to the
> Senate from a Southern state.
>
> Both from Georgia.  It would not happen in my state, Mississippi, but who
> knows?  Maybe soon.  bill w
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From bronto at pobox.com  Thu Feb  4 07:34:44 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 23:34:44 -0800
Subject: [ExI] how does it work?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZFR=Yrn6ifOEjzq+cbMcPw34KeCaR2xZscx9Hjdu4Fgw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZFR=Yrn6ifOEjzq+cbMcPw34KeCaR2xZscx9Hjdu4Fgw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5e2041ce-2e52-f65b-be54-7aea56c3b1cf@pobox.com>

On 2021-1-29 18:03, William Flynn Wallace wrote:
 > Are the people making the vaccine getting rich?  Are they getting
 > any price they ask for?  Is there a possible monopoly here?  [...]

With at least three apparently successful vaccines already,
not much chance of monopoly.

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org


From ben at zaiboc.net  Thu Feb  4 09:56:18 2021
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 09:56:18 +0000
Subject: [ExI] 
 =?utf-8?q?12_Little_Things_That_Show_People_You=E2=80=99re?=
 =?utf-8?q?_Intelligent?=
In-Reply-To: <mailman.14.1612385729.24575.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.14.1612385729.24575.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <527bc569-504b-8789-6de7-c81aaa016a6a@zaiboc.net>

On 03/02/2021 20:55, Dave Sill wrote:
>
> https://medium.com/the-ascent/12-little-things-that-show-people-youre-intelligent-without-you-having-to-say-it-a9dd8f34f53f
>
> TL;DR:
>
> 1. Showing up on time.
> 2. Dressing appropriately.
> 3. Remembering the little things.
> 4. Holding the door open.
> 5. The art on your walls.
> 6. Your shoes.
> 7. When you take notes.
> 8. The state of your desktop.
> 9. Spending money wisely.
> 10. How you invest your time.
> 11. The foods you eat.
> 12. Your circle of friends.
>
> --
>
> Some of these are good; some are pretty silly. There are some obvious 
> omissions like:
>
> Be polite and respectful.
> Be a good listener.
> Be open minded.
> Pay attention.
> Keep your promises.
>
> I'm sure we could add dozens more.
>
> -Dave


Nope, and nope.

All those things do (the ones that actually mean anything at all) is 
show how much of a conformist people are. Nothing to do with 
intelligence at all, except perhaps in a trivial way, as in if you don't 
conform to a group's expectations, you're likely to alienate them, so 
it's smart to conform if you don't want to do that. But everybody knows 
that. Most people do these conformist things quite happily, but really 
intelligent people tend to be nonconformist, and if they do these 
things, it's for a considered reason, not habitual. So you can't use 
these thiings to determine people's intelligence.

(Have you really never met highly intelligent people who are rude and 
disrespectful? I'd suspect there is even a loose correlation (and not a 
negative one) between intelligence and those things, as a result of 
getting frustrated with all the stupidity)

I think all this is, is an attempt to 'socialise' those who think of 
themselves as intelligent (but aren't really that intelligent, or they'd 
see straight through it).

Ben

-- 
Ben Zaiboc


From ben at zaiboc.net  Thu Feb  4 10:10:06 2021
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 10:10:06 +0000
Subject: [ExI] LIVE: Starship SN9 Flight Test
In-Reply-To: <mailman.14.1612385729.24575.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.14.1612385729.24575.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <b85eac6b-6ca8-1351-b5da-54c8b60628c9@zaiboc.net>

On 03/02/2021 20:55, John Grigg wrote:
> I am disappointed that only 268,000 people are subscribed to 
> NASAspaceflight... 
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVO8YsD87ibqRGIJ7o8sOzg>
>
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/premium>
> <https://www.youtube.com/premium><https://www.youtube.com/feed/storefront?bp=ogUCKAI%3D><https://www.youtube.com/feed/storefront?bp=ogUCKAI%3D><https://www.youtube.com/gaming><https://www.youtube.com/gaming><https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4R8DWoMoI7CAwX8_LjQHig><https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4R8DWoMoI7CAwX8_LjQHig><https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrpQ4p1Ql_hG8rKXIKM1MOQ>
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrpQ4p1Ql_hG8rKXIKM1MOQ>
> <https://www.youtube.com/account>
> <https://www.youtube.com/account><https://www.youtube.com/reporthistory><https://www.youtube.com/reporthistory>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfHqbahPKpY

Don't be disappointed, John. It doesn't mean that only 268k people are 
interested. I'm sure there are many more, (like me) who are interested 
but don't subscribe.

Ben

-- 
Ben Zaiboc

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From ben at zaiboc.net  Thu Feb  4 10:20:10 2021
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 10:20:10 +0000
Subject: [ExI] YT Video: What If You Traveled One Billion Years Into the
 Future?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.14.1612385729.24575.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.14.1612385729.24575.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <5659bd1d-856f-ad11-3d52-e7179521485e@zaiboc.net>

On 03/02/2021 20:55, John Grigg wrote:
> I tend to think the creators of this video suffered from a lack of 
> imagination when it comes to envisioning the future godlike 
> technological abilities of humanity and our mind children to intervene 
> with the life cycles of our planet and sun...
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXkO4HdQXdo

Haha, I only watched the '10 000 years' bit, then quit. It didn't even 
ask 'will the earth still exist?' so I reckon 'lack of imagination' is 
right. But really, speculation like this is pointless, if maybe 
entertaining. We have no clue what will happen in the next 100 years, 
let alone anything else. We probably aren't capable of even imagining, 
or understanding, what will be going on in 500 years, so 10 000 years is 
right off the table, never mind a billion years

-- 
Ben Zaiboc

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From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Feb  4 14:23:36 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 06:23:36 -0800
Subject: [ExI] is this vaccine failing
Message-ID: <011101d6fb01$538ae940$faa0bbc0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

Oy vey, I don't like this.

 

I am watching the progress of various countries in vaccinations for covid.
Israel is waaaay the heck ahead of everyone, with 60 doses per 100 people,
which is not the same as 60% of their population, because some have two
doses.  But even then, it must be higher than 30%.

 

So. we should be seeing visible results in a reduction of new cases by now.

 

 

 



 

But I don't see it:

 

 



 

 

It went down some, but so did everywhere else on the planet.  The USA has
dropped a lot more in new daily cases, even though it just broke thru 10
doses per 100 people yesterday.

 

I haven't heard many cases of people catching after getting the vaccines,
but this dataset almost suggests that must be what is happening.  Or. the
unvaccinated let their guard down and caught from other un-vaccinated?

 

Comments welcome.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Feb  4 14:47:42 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 08:47:42 -0600
Subject: [ExI] where are these people?
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy33NVriLMZXXHdJ0rbgzTCu6VsBFxCjn0Wc_qp7ZWYu6g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa3LmDoqbKPc7Ot0zecMGuF5PSkwguj=LCpud11m75SzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <00aa01d6f4e9$9e731db0$db595910$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbPtJpGzNyQpUf-3Gr_2VNSMhHes9r-Y3W2VAMMtnKzyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNStV4n=1ULvCW8J+_xhoMH+HdpMnaWdTEoViJaPmZjAxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <008f01d6f510$d8cec640$8a6c52c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZOCqqz=B0UBydcyuzjU-e=y9VBjwgsfzndiz36fUvSuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy33NVriLMZXXHdJ0rbgzTCu6VsBFxCjn0Wc_qp7ZWYu6g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYJXNEFe7fOVURoPRG-RZM6+ARUD5eS==SO=H__9CtZiA@mail.gmail.com>

Many studies have been done on what attracts one person to another.  Of all
the variables studied, looks came out way, way ahead - basically swamped
all the other factors.  bill w

On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 11:49 PM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> This thread "spiked" my memory and caused me to think about how during
> Ronald Reagan's presidency, he gave a speech and a woman stopped him as he
> finished and was walking away from the pulpit. In a loud voice she went on
> and on praising him for his powerful masculinity and manly physique! Lol
> She came across as seriously nuts, but the president listened in sort of a
> shocked silence, though he did seem to enjoy the praise.
>
> *"**Sapiosexual* <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sapiosexual> :
> of, relating to, or characterized by sexual or romantic attraction to
> highly intelligent people"
>
> In my experience sapiosexuality usually only occurs when combined with
> good looks... Go figure! Lol I had some extremely bright friends in college
> and beyond who the girls totally ignored.
>
> John
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 28, 2021 at 11:30 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 7:01 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On
>>> Behalf Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> >>Let's hear it for pansexuality!  bill w
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> >?Not everyone is attracted to kitchen hardware.  ??
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> But Adrian, they are really sexy.  I have some Teflon ones, oh mercy.  I
>>> don?t understand not getting turned on by those things.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> spike
>>>
>>> Better watch it, Spike - you might earn a new nickname:  Slick.  bill w
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Feb  4 16:29:51 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 10:29:51 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Mass production of thousands of humanoid robots starts
 this year.
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjD0W+ER0dUf7EZXrw1tvTDSzmiKomXCwqaH94--t6FoA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjD0W+ER0dUf7EZXrw1tvTDSzmiKomXCwqaH94--t6FoA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaTkPOY6OUjfEuR0eHt_rTxCM1_0XqLV+ani53ObQRx1w@mail.gmail.com>

Those wily Japanese:  they have come up with 20+ emotions that nobody else
knows about.  Usually the number is around 10 or 12, up to maybe 30.  50 is
definitely a big outlier.   bill w

On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 1:21 PM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Hong-Kong based company Hanson Robotics will roll out four new models
> in the first half of 2021 after its humanoid robot Sophia went viral
> in 2016.
>
> <
> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/sophia-the-robot-makers-hansen-robotics-to-mass-produce-thousands-of-humanoid-machines/ar-BB1d4zIB
> >
>
> Quotes:
> Hanson believes robotic solutions are not only a response to the
> pandemic, but can also be applied to the realm of healthcare, and the
> retail and airline industry.
> "Sophia and Hanson robots are unique by being so human-like," he
> added. "That can be so useful during these times where people are
> terribly lonely and socially isolated."
>
> Sophia, whose artificial intelligence allows her to express 50
> emotions and process conversational and emotional data, agrees.
> "Social robots like me can take care of the sick or elderly," she
> explained. "I can help communicate, give therapy and provide social
> stimulation, even in difficult situations."
> ---------------
>
> This article includes a video of the Sophia robot.
> While still early technology and obviously non-human, it shows how the
> tech is progressing and will continue to improve.
> (Note - the Sophia robot is not a sex-bot. More like a mobile chat-bot
> at this stage of development).
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Feb  4 16:32:14 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 08:32:14 -0800
Subject: [ExI] is this vaccine failing
In-Reply-To: <011101d6fb01$538ae940$faa0bbc0$@rainier66.com>
References: <011101d6fb01$538ae940$faa0bbc0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <014a01d6fb13$4c3d8960$e4b89c20$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
Subject: is this vaccine failing

 

 

 

>.Oy vey, I don't like this..Comments welcome.  spike

 

 

 

How would we know if a bunch of counterfeit vaccine gets loose?  Wouldn't it
look a lot like the Israeli data?

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 00:47:59 2021
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 00:47:59 +0000
Subject: [ExI] very informative
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFgskmRgKjBCbhTu+Hc8Rbd2+jjo_j-H2mdNyat9adfeOg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFgU3vAqXuJ0__u8G7U0VguGQm9HvDhQzSkVBGXWH6HOLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <093E9966-427A-45D6-A809-D217B269A68A@gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFgskmRgKjBCbhTu+Hc8Rbd2+jjo_j-H2mdNyat9adfeOg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACB7g24VQz6BpHgxEn6ZNHsBijTCvSGBbyn9i5XfD8TbWRH70A@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jan 20, 2021 at 10:30 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 20, 2021 at 3:57 AM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> I thought it painfully obvious that by ?crossing a national border per se? was meant humans crossing said border.
>>
>> Also, I thought it painfully obvious that ?crossing a national border per se?
>> only means the act of crossing. Just like it should be painfully obvious that
>> walking per se doesn?t violate anyone?s right, but trampling someone does
>> ? even though trampling is a form of walking, no?
>>
>> Let me try to be even more painfully clear here. The problem with the Huns
>> invading is not that they?re crossing a border but that they?re attacking
>> people and breaking stuff. (Anyone who believes almost all folks crossing
>> national borders, illegally or not, now is the moral equivalent of an invading
>> Hun is a fool.)
>
> ### Well, national borders, appropriately defended, help alleviate the Hun problem.
> Since maintaining a selective Hun-only border, freely permeable to all non-Huns, is
> technically challenging, the specific implementation is non-permeable to all, with
> special areas, called border-crossings, where Huns are separated from non-Huns.
> Now, if some non-Huns insist on crossing the border outside of the designated
> border-crossing, they impair our ability to keep non-Huns out and thus, by the act
> of crossing the border, infringe on our right of defense against the Huns.
>
> Isn't this obvious?

What's obvious is the analogy is strained. Migrants crossing borders
today are completely unlike invasions by the Huns. The Huns didn't
filter through to find work. They invaded en masse. Rome eventually
defeated not by implementing some form of border policy akin to what
the US has been doing for over a century (or what the Soviet Union did
back in the day), but by fielding large armies and defeating Hunnic
armies. (In much the same way, having border checkpoints in Poland
wouldn't have kept the German army from rolling across the border,
though it might hamper peaceful individuals from crossing a
politically mandated boundary. Poland could've multiplied their
efforts for interdicting peaceful people crossing that border by a ten
and the Heer would've still rolled right over it in 1939. But that
effort in the US isn't really made to engage a real army. It's all
about propping up bigotry. Mind you, that sort of bigotry isn't
confined to the US, but it should be a dark stain on the national
culture here than anywhere else. And alleged libertarians should be in
the first line of people condemning it rather than finding ways to
rationalize it.)

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst


From danust2012 at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 00:52:00 2021
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 00:52:00 +0000
Subject: [ExI] LIVE: Starship SN9 Flight Test
In-Reply-To: <b85eac6b-6ca8-1351-b5da-54c8b60628c9@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.14.1612385729.24575.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <b85eac6b-6ca8-1351-b5da-54c8b60628c9@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CACB7g26yuD0f4wY7XaYwFNmsOkn8iriAH__FdvNJ4itPiBoOLg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 10:12 AM Ben via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> On 03/02/2021 20:55, John Grigg wrote:
> I am disappointed that only 268,000 people are subscribed to NASAspaceflight...
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfHqbahPKpY
>
> Don't be disappointed, John. It doesn't mean that only 268k people are interested.
> I'm sure there are many more, (like me) who are interested but don't subscribe.

To be honest, I'm interested but don't go over every last video. And
I'm subscribed to enough as it is. There's way more content out there
than anyone can consume at this point. So even the stuff I am
subscribed to is mostly ignored. (Ditto for all my feeds. Have to pick
and choose.)

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 02:54:53 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 10:54:53 +0800
Subject: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1W1XjVausvwhXecAO84ZZNByJiyrQG-ZO4FWTxESAeyw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv1W1XjVausvwhXecAO84ZZNByJiyrQG-ZO4FWTxESAeyw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy2sNtju_JKQ3f4QQtxvT7HCfW99kSf3EWnZSyw3QDOiMQ@mail.gmail.com>

John Clark wrote:
"Assuming this makes it through the moderation and approval process that I
must undergo this will be my last post to the Extropian List, my first was
on September 29 1993. I will unsubscribe after this, it will be the first
time in 28 years I have not been a member. It pains me to do this but even
though He Who Must Not Be Named is no longer president I'm still under
moderation and there is just no point in cluttering up my mailbox with
posts that I can't respond to without a lot of red tape, besides the list
has change so much in the last 4 years from being a bunch of logic loving
free market libertarians (small l) that it once was I hardly recognize it
anymore. Thanks everybody for decades of great discussions. Goodbye."

Ugh!!! This list will not be the same without John Clark. And I mean to say
that it will be less than it should be, without him. The man could be
combative at times, but his intelligence and ability to wrestle with
subjects will be missed, at least by me. I hope in time he returns to us.

And I hope he has cryonics arrangements in place.

John

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 11:50 PM John Clark via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Assuming this makes it through the moderation and approval process that I
> must undergo this will be my last post to the Extropian List, my first was
> on September 29 1993. I will unsubscribe after this, it will be the first
> time in 28 years I have not been a member. It pains me to do this but even
> though He Who Must Not Be Named is no longer president I'm still under
> moderation and there is just no point in cluttering up my mailbox with
> posts that I can't respond to without a lot of red tape, besides the list
> has change so much in the last 4 years from being a bunch of logic loving
> free market libertarians (small l) that it once was I hardly recognize it
> anymore. Thanks everybody for decades of great discussions. Goodbye.
>
>  John K Clark
>
> PS: Even though I won't be making my "Paranormal Prediction" post at the
> end of this year as I have in the past I still think it will hold true.
> PPS: You can still find me hanging around   Extropolis
> <https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis> and  The Everything List
> <https://groups.google.com/g/everything-list>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From gordon.swobe at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 03:39:11 2021
From: gordon.swobe at gmail.com (Gordon Swobe)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 20:39:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1W1XjVausvwhXecAO84ZZNByJiyrQG-ZO4FWTxESAeyw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv1W1XjVausvwhXecAO84ZZNByJiyrQG-ZO4FWTxESAeyw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJvaNPnH89Pf3OSCEpB7VJUArDWtJm5HcxtUfHnZb-x0ruDcOg@mail.gmail.com>

Wow John Clark. I just rejoined this list after being away for a few years
and silent for many. I am surprised, but not too surprised, to see all the
old familiar names here. You used to give me major grief for my heretical
(by extropian standards) views on Strong AI and digital uploading of
consciousness. You are actually one of the reasons I stopped participating
here. Even so, I hate to see you go!

-gts

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 8:50 AM John Clark via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Assuming this makes it through the moderation and approval process that I
> must undergo this will be my last post to the Extropian List, my first was
> on September 29 1993. I will unsubscribe after this, it will be the first
> time in 28 years I have not been a member. It pains me to do this but even
> though He Who Must Not Be Named is no longer president I'm still under
> moderation and there is just no point in cluttering up my mailbox with
> posts that I can't respond to without a lot of red tape, besides the list
> has change so much in the last 4 years from being a bunch of logic loving
> free market libertarians (small l) that it once was I hardly recognize it
> anymore. Thanks everybody for decades of great discussions. Goodbye.
>
>  John K Clark
>
> PS: Even though I won't be making my "Paranormal Prediction" post at the
> end of this year as I have in the past I still think it will hold true.
> PPS: You can still find me hanging around   Extropolis
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/05398f736584b211c2a9372ecc27c8c71c7b76d2?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgroups.google.com%2Fg%2Fextropolis&userId=411390&signature=3a22070b9f47d41b>
>  and  The Everything List
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/1bf81fa43c461bc1186b77422d668c69f8c83a4b?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgroups.google.com%2Fg%2Feverything-list&userId=411390&signature=079ea5952c306f6c>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/fe6348531eebb98cc877761e92ca4cf6b1f1c75c?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.extropy.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo.cgi%2Fextropy-chat&userId=411390&signature=8b24349d40ac3e99>
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Feb  5 04:09:01 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 20:09:01 -0800
Subject: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List
In-Reply-To: <CAJvaNPnH89Pf3OSCEpB7VJUArDWtJm5HcxtUfHnZb-x0ruDcOg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv1W1XjVausvwhXecAO84ZZNByJiyrQG-ZO4FWTxESAeyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvaNPnH89Pf3OSCEpB7VJUArDWtJm5HcxtUfHnZb-x0ruDcOg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006c01d6fb74$a34e15b0$e9ea4110$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Gordon Swobe via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List

 

>?. I am surprised, but not too surprised, to see all the old familiar names here. You used to give me major grief for my heretical (by extropian standards) views on Strong AI and digital uploading of consciousness. You are actually one of the reasons I stopped participating here. Even so, I hate to see you go!

-gts 

 

 

Gts we are glad to see you back.

 

spike

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From gordon.swobe at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 04:35:22 2021
From: gordon.swobe at gmail.com (Gordon Swobe)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 21:35:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List
In-Reply-To: <006c01d6fb74$a34e15b0$e9ea4110$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAJPayv1W1XjVausvwhXecAO84ZZNByJiyrQG-ZO4FWTxESAeyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvaNPnH89Pf3OSCEpB7VJUArDWtJm5HcxtUfHnZb-x0ruDcOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <006c01d6fb74$a34e15b0$e9ea4110$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAJvaNPmnGGNku5s33PuAyHmvjdfC2Anx9ADQkgBJivjNx7Dapw@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks spike. I came back because I got sucked into the facebook nightmare
and am trying to extricate myself from it.

On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 9:12 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *Gordon Swobe via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List
>
>
>
> >?. I am surprised, but not too surprised, to see all the old familiar
> names here. You used to give me major grief for my heretical (by extropian
> standards) views on Strong AI and digital uploading of consciousness. You
> are actually one of the reasons I stopped participating here. Even so, I
> hate to see you go!
>
> -gts
>
>
>
>
>
> Gts we are glad to see you back.
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/dff491eec2746accbf3001b70af937d759e73d81?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.extropy.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo.cgi%2Fextropy-chat&userId=411390&signature=95b68846a8cbcbeb>
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Feb  5 14:42:17 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 06:42:17 -0800
Subject: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List
In-Reply-To: <CAJvaNPmnGGNku5s33PuAyHmvjdfC2Anx9ADQkgBJivjNx7Dapw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv1W1XjVausvwhXecAO84ZZNByJiyrQG-ZO4FWTxESAeyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvaNPnH89Pf3OSCEpB7VJUArDWtJm5HcxtUfHnZb-x0ruDcOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <006c01d6fb74$a34e15b0$e9ea4110$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJvaNPmnGGNku5s33PuAyHmvjdfC2Anx9ADQkgBJivjNx7Dapw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009c01d6fbcd$1b5cc3a0$52164ae0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: Gordon Swobe <gordon.swobe at gmail.com> 
Subject: Re: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List

 

>?Thanks spike. I came back because I got sucked into the facebook nightmare and am trying to extricate myself from it?

 

Eh, it isn?t only FaceBook, Gordon.  It isn?t even just the social media in general.  In our day we are facing a very good question: how should a public forum be moderated, if at all?

 

Suppose we say that the usual social constraints, such as how one carries oneself at a party or public park, should be sufficient.  Then? what if they aren?t?  What if a person shows up on a forum such as Extropians and posts a lot of stuff that is insulting and drives away valuable contributors.  Then suppose that forum has a moderator who allows everything, but that moderator clearly sees that this policy is damaging that forum severely and tries to get the offender to stop, but the offender will not stop.

 

Social media in general are wrestling with that question, particularly FaceBook and Twitter.  When a mainstream medium decides it will filter content or block a user, it becomes a de facto endorsement of every post it allows to remain.  

 

Look at some of the vile garbage Face Book and Twitter suddenly endorsed, oh mercy: racism, sexism, genocide, the works.  If they are going to moderate content, then they must do it across the board.  Otherwise, that content is theirs to own.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 9:12 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> > On Behalf Of Gordon Swobe via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List

 

>?. I am surprised, but not too surprised, to see all the old familiar names here. You used to give me major grief for my heretical (by extropian standards) views on Strong AI and digital uploading of consciousness. You are actually one of the reasons I stopped participating here. Even so, I hate to see you go!

-gts 

 

 

Gts we are glad to see you back.

 

spike

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/dff491eec2746accbf3001b70af937d759e73d81?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.extropy.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo.cgi%2Fextropy-chat&userId=411390&signature=95b68846a8cbcbeb> 



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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 14:56:24 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 08:56:24 -0600
Subject: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List
In-Reply-To: <009c01d6fbcd$1b5cc3a0$52164ae0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAJPayv1W1XjVausvwhXecAO84ZZNByJiyrQG-ZO4FWTxESAeyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvaNPnH89Pf3OSCEpB7VJUArDWtJm5HcxtUfHnZb-x0ruDcOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <006c01d6fb74$a34e15b0$e9ea4110$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJvaNPmnGGNku5s33PuAyHmvjdfC2Anx9ADQkgBJivjNx7Dapw@mail.gmail.com>
 <009c01d6fbcd$1b5cc3a0$52164ae0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY_5n_-xLVV_-Y+ERBDFP4JHo-HRixsj+hsCedXxSD9Yw@mail.gmail.com>

Social media in general are wrestling with that question, particularly
FaceBook and Twitter.  When a mainstream medium decides it will filter
content or block a user, it becomes a de facto endorsement of every post it
allows to remain.



Look at some of the vile garbage Face Book and Twitter suddenly endorsed,
oh mercy: racism, sexism, genocide, the works.  If they are going to
moderate content, then they must do it across the board.  Otherwise, that
content is theirs to own.  spike


Let's take two examples: 1 - I will post an idea that what we need now is a
king - total authoritarian.  2 - I post some obscenities with no social
content.


I assume a moderator will censor the second one, but not the first - we are
libertarians but open to discussion of all ideas.  Spike is saying that the
group endorses the authoritarian one because it does moderate content and
is letting this one post.


That's just not right.  If some libertarian in our group starts demanding a
king for our country,that is not the same as endorsing the idea.   That is
just letting serious ideas get to us for discussion and probably shaming!
  bill w



On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 8:45 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* Gordon Swobe <gordon.swobe at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List
>
>
>
> >?Thanks spike. I came back because I got sucked into the facebook
> nightmare and am trying to extricate myself from it?
>
>
>
> Eh, it isn?t only FaceBook, Gordon.  It isn?t even just the social media
> in general.  In our day we are facing a very good question: how should a
> public forum be moderated, if at all?
>
>
>
> Suppose we say that the usual social constraints, such as how one carries
> oneself at a party or public park, should be sufficient.  Then? what if
> they aren?t?  What if a person shows up on a forum such as Extropians and
> posts a lot of stuff that is insulting and drives away valuable
> contributors.  Then suppose that forum has a moderator who allows
> everything, but that moderator clearly sees that this policy is damaging
> that forum severely and tries to get the offender to stop, but the offender
> will not stop.
>
>
>
> Social media in general are wrestling with that question, particularly
> FaceBook and Twitter.  When a mainstream medium decides it will filter
> content or block a user, it becomes a de facto endorsement of every post it
> allows to remain.
>
>
>
> Look at some of the vile garbage Face Book and Twitter suddenly endorsed,
> oh mercy: racism, sexism, genocide, the works.  If they are going to
> moderate content, then they must do it across the board.  Otherwise, that
> content is theirs to own.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 9:12 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *Gordon Swobe via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List
>
>
>
> >?. I am surprised, but not too surprised, to see all the old familiar
> names here. You used to give me major grief for my heretical (by extropian
> standards) views on Strong AI and digital uploading of consciousness. You
> are actually one of the reasons I stopped participating here. Even so, I
> hate to see you go!
>
> -gts
>
>
>
>
>
> Gts we are glad to see you back.
>
>
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/dff491eec2746accbf3001b70af937d759e73d81?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.extropy.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo.cgi%2Fextropy-chat&userId=411390&signature=95b68846a8cbcbeb>
>
> [image: Image removed by sender.]
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Feb  5 15:17:45 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 07:17:45 -0800
Subject: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEY_5n_-xLVV_-Y+ERBDFP4JHo-HRixsj+hsCedXxSD9Yw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv1W1XjVausvwhXecAO84ZZNByJiyrQG-ZO4FWTxESAeyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvaNPnH89Pf3OSCEpB7VJUArDWtJm5HcxtUfHnZb-x0ruDcOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <006c01d6fb74$a34e15b0$e9ea4110$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJvaNPmnGGNku5s33PuAyHmvjdfC2Anx9ADQkgBJivjNx7Dapw@mail.gmail.com>
 <009c01d6fbcd$1b5cc3a0$52164ae0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEY_5n_-xLVV_-Y+ERBDFP4JHo-HRixsj+hsCedXxSD9Yw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00ad01d6fbd2$0f072a00$2d157e00$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Sent: Friday, February 5, 2021 6:56 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List

 

>?That's just not right.  If some libertarian in our group starts demanding a king for our country,that is not the same as endorsing the idea.   That is just letting serious ideas get to us for discussion and probably shaming!    bill w

 

Eh, it isn?t that simple BillW.  For starters, it isn?t our country.  This is an international forum.  The former moderator (me) repeatedly requested that posters refrain from campaigning for their particular country?s political leaders, for it was irrelevant and possibly insulting to those who do not follow that particular country?s political leaders.  To me that sounded reasonable.  This is a futurist forum, not a campaign site for any particular country.  There is no ?our country.?

That being said, I am all in favor of a king, with unlimited power, no dissent allowed.  This assumes of course that I am elected to be king.  Otherwise, no deal.

If I start campaigning for election to king on this forum, that isn?t welcome and is irrelevant to many of our most valuable posters.

Face Book and Twitter are also international, so if they decide to censor one person for political reasons, they endorse everyone they didn?t censor.  This includes genocide, sexism, racism, the works.  So no Face Book and Twitter endorse those things.

spike

 

 

 

 

w

 

 

On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 8:45 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

 

 

From: Gordon Swobe <gordon.swobe at gmail.com <mailto:gordon.swobe at gmail.com> > 
Subject: Re: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List

 

>?Thanks spike. I came back because I got sucked into the facebook nightmare and am trying to extricate myself from it?

 

Eh, it isn?t only FaceBook, Gordon.  It isn?t even just the social media in general.  In our day we are facing a very good question: how should a public forum be moderated, if at all?

 

Suppose we say that the usual social constraints, such as how one carries oneself at a party or public park, should be sufficient.  Then? what if they aren?t?  What if a person shows up on a forum such as Extropians and posts a lot of stuff that is insulting and drives away valuable contributors.  Then suppose that forum has a moderator who allows everything, but that moderator clearly sees that this policy is damaging that forum severely and tries to get the offender to stop, but the offender will not stop.

 

Social media in general are wrestling with that question, particularly FaceBook and Twitter.  When a mainstream medium decides it will filter content or block a user, it becomes a de facto endorsement of every post it allows to remain.  

 

Look at some of the vile garbage Face Book and Twitter suddenly endorsed, oh mercy: racism, sexism, genocide, the works.  If they are going to moderate content, then they must do it across the board.  Otherwise, that content is theirs to own.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 9:12 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> > On Behalf Of Gordon Swobe via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List

 

>?. I am surprised, but not too surprised, to see all the old familiar names here. You used to give me major grief for my heretical (by extropian standards) views on Strong AI and digital uploading of consciousness. You are actually one of the reasons I stopped participating here. Even so, I hate to see you go!

-gts 

 

 

Gts we are glad to see you back.

 

spike

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/dff491eec2746accbf3001b70af937d759e73d81?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.extropy.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo.cgi%2Fextropy-chat&userId=411390&signature=95b68846a8cbcbeb> 



_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From sparge at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 15:19:44 2021
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 10:19:44 -0500
Subject: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEY_5n_-xLVV_-Y+ERBDFP4JHo-HRixsj+hsCedXxSD9Yw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv1W1XjVausvwhXecAO84ZZNByJiyrQG-ZO4FWTxESAeyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvaNPnH89Pf3OSCEpB7VJUArDWtJm5HcxtUfHnZb-x0ruDcOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <006c01d6fb74$a34e15b0$e9ea4110$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJvaNPmnGGNku5s33PuAyHmvjdfC2Anx9ADQkgBJivjNx7Dapw@mail.gmail.com>
 <009c01d6fbcd$1b5cc3a0$52164ae0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEY_5n_-xLVV_-Y+ERBDFP4JHo-HRixsj+hsCedXxSD9Yw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2dbfrRp+nXdMA-jnTgfw9-QzD1sUGpZ0WU7pO0ii1UhAA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 10:00 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> Let's take two examples: 1 - I will post an idea that what we need now is
> a king - total authoritarian.  2 - I post some obscenities with no social
> content.
>

Post where? Here? Facebook?

I assume a moderator will censor the second one, but not the first - we are
> libertarians but open to discussion of all ideas.
>

Neither will be excluded here. We have a moderator, but he/she/it doesn't
moderate every submission to the list. Neither would be moderated on FB
except possibly to a moderated group.

  Spike is saying that the group endorses the authoritarian one because it
> does moderate content and is letting this one post.
>
>
> That's just not right.  If some libertarian in our group starts demanding
> a king for our country,that is not the same as endorsing the idea.   That
> is just letting serious ideas get to us for discussion and probably shaming!
>

The moderation here is exceedingly light-handed. We don't want to exclude
anyone from on-topic discussion. The problem with John was that he was a
broken record, saying the same thing over and over and over again until it
became abusive and drove off a number of valued contributors.

-Dave
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From ipbrians at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 15:53:30 2021
From: ipbrians at gmail.com (Ivor Brians)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 07:53:30 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Fundamental Concept
Message-ID: <F43678D1-D3F3-49A7-B92B-33CECC0D46E0@hxcore.ol>

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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Feb  5 16:02:36 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 08:02:36 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Fundamental Concept
In-Reply-To: <F43678D1-D3F3-49A7-B92B-33CECC0D46E0@hxcore.ol>
References: <F43678D1-D3F3-49A7-B92B-33CECC0D46E0@hxcore.ol>
Message-ID: <00d901d6fbd8$5290fe30$f7b2fa90$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of Ivor Brians via extropy-chat
Subject: [ExI] Fundamental Concept

 

All,

 

>?A Q for the group: ?What is the most fundamental concept which could eliminate all strife in the human world (even if impractical)??  Ivor

 

 

A virus that kills everybody?  The sun going red supergiant?

 

spike

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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Feb  5 16:09:13 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 08:09:13 -0800
Subject: [ExI] perception is reality
Message-ID: <00e801d6fbd9$3f6a3b90$be3eb2b0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

"I lived a situation like that and it doesn't have to be real, the threat,
for you to believe it's imminent."  Chris Cuomo on CNN

 

"It's what you believe."  Don Lemon on CNN

 

"Jerry, just remember: It' not a lie, if you believe it."  

 

https://youtu.be/jNrIu0OX7ms

 

spike

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From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 16:34:18 2021
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 16:34:18 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Fundamental Concept
In-Reply-To: <F43678D1-D3F3-49A7-B92B-33CECC0D46E0@hxcore.ol>
References: <F43678D1-D3F3-49A7-B92B-33CECC0D46E0@hxcore.ol>
Message-ID: <CAL_armh2jEJsBaAAyo7=SNs-o8vWbNrA3fT4bQ8vztau01OBVQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 5 Feb 2021 at 15:57, Ivor Brians via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> A Q for the group: ?What is the most fundamental concept which could eliminate all strife in the human world (even if impractical)??
> Ivor
> _______________________________________________


You want us to solve the problem of World Peace?
Easy, five minutes should do it.  :)

There are two areas of conflict, local within a group and wars between groups.
The genetic inheritance of humans and chimps usually means that within
a group a dominant personality threatens the fighting pair and makes
them behave. Nowadays we use police, courts, dictators, etc. to
achieve this. With human increased intelligence conflict resolution
can also be achieved by discussion and mutual compromise.
On the larger scale, wars between groups are usually caused by lack of
resources. Food, oil, increased population needs more land, etc.

So the fundamental concept you want is access to unlimited resources
for everyone.

BillK


From msd001 at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 17:37:37 2021
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 12:37:37 -0500
Subject: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2dbfrRp+nXdMA-jnTgfw9-QzD1sUGpZ0WU7pO0ii1UhAA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv1W1XjVausvwhXecAO84ZZNByJiyrQG-ZO4FWTxESAeyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvaNPnH89Pf3OSCEpB7VJUArDWtJm5HcxtUfHnZb-x0ruDcOg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAOJFdbKdOHM_F4OhUDAMR8rp-TpHsKehp3rG9AAmra4eJOGfGg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 5, 2021, 10:34 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> The moderation here is exceedingly light-handed. We don't want to exclude
> anyone from on-topic discussion. The problem with John was that he was a
> broken record, saying the same thing over and over and over again until it
> became abusive and drove off a number of valued contributors.
>

That problem... isn't really a problem.

Ours is an attention issue.  We are focused on John instead of
whatever-the-hell-it-was

We're still talking about John.  He's already gone away, defeated by a
totalitarian slant (whether objectively fact or subjectively perceived is
not a nuance I care about)

We've had automatic filters on message content in our inbox pretty much
since the dawn of email... but instead of taking responsibility for our own
inbox, we demanded that the listserv apply content restrictions on everyone.

You get the gist of what I'm saying? You don't like it? Block me from your
inbox and you'll never have to see my opinion again. However, if I use the
listserv and moderation to banish your thoughts from the group then I have
killed what I thought was a core philosophy of this group. At that point,
we're no longer Extropy-chat.
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From sparge at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 17:46:24 2021
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 12:46:24 -0500
Subject: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbKdOHM_F4OhUDAMR8rp-TpHsKehp3rG9AAmra4eJOGfGg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv1W1XjVausvwhXecAO84ZZNByJiyrQG-ZO4FWTxESAeyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvaNPnH89Pf3OSCEpB7VJUArDWtJm5HcxtUfHnZb-x0ruDcOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <006c01d6fb74$a34e15b0$e9ea4110$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJvaNPmnGGNku5s33PuAyHmvjdfC2Anx9ADQkgBJivjNx7Dapw@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAO+xQEY_5n_-xLVV_-Y+ERBDFP4JHo-HRixsj+hsCedXxSD9Yw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAM5aL2frqEfRpxPf1_jN_F2=KLSpD+6+G5C-7K0Un-z0TyubTA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 12:37 PM Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> We've had automatic filters on message content in our inbox pretty much
> since the dawn of email... but instead of taking responsibility for our own
> inbox, we demanded that the listserv apply content restrictions on everyone.
>
> You get the gist of what I'm saying? You don't like it? Block me from your
> inbox and you'll never have to see my opinion again. However, if I use the
> listserv and moderation to banish your thoughts from the group then I have
> killed what I thought was a core philosophy of this group. At that point,
> we're no longer Extropy-chat.
>

I blocked John years ago and never demanded his removal, although I think
he should have been removed a long time ago. I'm a libertarian but I don't
think that gives me the right to piss in your pool.

-Dave
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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 17:49:42 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 09:49:42 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Fundamental Concept
In-Reply-To: <F43678D1-D3F3-49A7-B92B-33CECC0D46E0@hxcore.ol>
References: <F43678D1-D3F3-49A7-B92B-33CECC0D46E0@hxcore.ol>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTw=ZEqVOw78rxbZeg5SFrFgzf5VGrh2eNeYJ0VJpSNrA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 7:56 AM Ivor Brians via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> A Q for the group: ?What is the most fundamental concept which could
> eliminate all strife in the human world (even if impractical)??
>

Eliminating strife.  If you eliminate strife, you eliminate strife.  Seems
pretty fundamental to me.

Much strife is caused by limited resources, but not all.  A minority of
conflict is fueled by just plain hatred and fear.  Misunderstandings and
miscommunication cause a bit too (including some that leads to said hatred
and fear - though hatred and fear can cause misunderstandings too, as
people make assumptions that rational minds find unreasonable).  And then
there are bullies, who cause strife for fun.

But if you found some AI-nanny solution that might intervene when strife
occurs, that might eliminate all strife regardless of the cause - if you're
looking for a single, fundamental solution.
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From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 17:53:06 2021
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 17:53:06 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Stunning Photos of Starling Murmurations
Message-ID: <CAL_armhzNm9ktBDbf2QAcbS4VS1jxw7MvpPCb2bo7+O5KjcTNA@mail.gmail.com>

<https://mymodernmet.com/starling-formations-soren-solkaer/>

?I have mainly been fascinated by the visual appearance of the large
flocks of starlings flying as one organism,? he tells My Modern Met.
?Particularly the shapes that occur when birds of prey attack the
flock. The resulting shapes and ?images' often resemble birds and
whales.?

Equally fascinating to Solk?r is the starlings' ability to work
closely together in unison for the benefit of the flock. ?I have
noticed their incredible ability to navigate with great speed and
agility in situations of great danger?without ever even touching each
other despite being very close together. They are able to turn the
flock all black, by turning their backs to the attacking birds in
order to scare them off and make it harder for them to single out an
individual bird.?
-------------------

Amazing still photos!

BillK


From msd001 at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 17:58:06 2021
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 12:58:06 -0500
Subject: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2frqEfRpxPf1_jN_F2=KLSpD+6+G5C-7K0Un-z0TyubTA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv1W1XjVausvwhXecAO84ZZNByJiyrQG-ZO4FWTxESAeyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvaNPnH89Pf3OSCEpB7VJUArDWtJm5HcxtUfHnZb-x0ruDcOg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAOJFdb+7tW1r-LcTH9EppOy-e9wp4XLJbrFJ7VgQ_YUB-pwxUQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 5, 2021, 12:49 PM Dave Sill via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> I blocked John years ago and never demanded his removal, although I think
> he should have been removed a long time ago. I'm a libertarian but I don't
> think that gives me the right to piss in your pool.
>

Thank you for acknowledging my point.

>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 18:01:25 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 12:01:25 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Fundamental Concept
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTw=ZEqVOw78rxbZeg5SFrFgzf5VGrh2eNeYJ0VJpSNrA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <F43678D1-D3F3-49A7-B92B-33CECC0D46E0@hxcore.ol>
 <CALAdGNTw=ZEqVOw78rxbZeg5SFrFgzf5VGrh2eNeYJ0VJpSNrA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYCQPT9H+uU0qg_Wy+4Bxvr=TUfraE4PnfFMFCg3q+1mQ@mail.gmail.com>

forgiveness ---    bill w

On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 11:57 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 7:56 AM Ivor Brians via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> A Q for the group: ?What is the most fundamental concept which could
>> eliminate all strife in the human world (even if impractical)??
>>
>
> Eliminating strife.  If you eliminate strife, you eliminate strife.  Seems
> pretty fundamental to me.
>
> Much strife is caused by limited resources, but not all.  A minority of
> conflict is fueled by just plain hatred and fear.  Misunderstandings and
> miscommunication cause a bit too (including some that leads to said hatred
> and fear - though hatred and fear can cause misunderstandings too, as
> people make assumptions that rational minds find unreasonable).  And then
> there are bullies, who cause strife for fun.
>
> But if you found some AI-nanny solution that might intervene when strife
> occurs, that might eliminate all strife regardless of the cause - if you're
> looking for a single, fundamental solution.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 18:38:37 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 12:38:37 -0600
Subject: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdb+7tW1r-LcTH9EppOy-e9wp4XLJbrFJ7VgQ_YUB-pwxUQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv1W1XjVausvwhXecAO84ZZNByJiyrQG-ZO4FWTxESAeyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvaNPnH89Pf3OSCEpB7VJUArDWtJm5HcxtUfHnZb-x0ruDcOg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAOJFdbKdOHM_F4OhUDAMR8rp-TpHsKehp3rG9AAmra4eJOGfGg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAOJFdb+7tW1r-LcTH9EppOy-e9wp4XLJbrFJ7VgQ_YUB-pwxUQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEb=LMtm6UBLU9CKpfudE3yM-=zKN9wnbvJ2BV0Xp6uw5Q@mail.gmail.com>

Face Book and Twitter are also international, so if they decide to censor
one person for political reasons, they endorse everyone they didn?t
censor.  This includes genocide, sexism, racism, the works.  So no Face
Book and Twitter endorse those things.  spike



 I am answering a bit in the dark here; I have assumed that facebook
censored opinions that advocated

violence, not just right or left wing opinions.  Where is the harm done by
discussing all the isms?  Clearly some people are going to advocate some of
the worst of them.  That's just part of the discussion. A newspaper can
post something like "the views expressed here are not necessarily those of
the paper".

I have assumed that that is facebook's position.   bill w





w




On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 12:14 PM Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 5, 2021, 12:49 PM Dave Sill via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> I blocked John years ago and never demanded his removal, although I think
>> he should have been removed a long time ago. I'm a libertarian but I don't
>> think that gives me the right to piss in your pool.
>>
>
> Thank you for acknowledging my point.
>
>> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 18:41:17 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 12:41:17 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Stunning Photos of Starling Murmurations
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhzNm9ktBDbf2QAcbS4VS1jxw7MvpPCb2bo7+O5KjcTNA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhzNm9ktBDbf2QAcbS4VS1jxw7MvpPCb2bo7+O5KjcTNA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaWn=6zycuE0POhEHkBUAbO8+4bJczeLHnh2hRtpVN9tg@mail.gmail.com>

Starlings are reminiscent of the behavior of schools of fish, though the
starlings seem more inventive.   bill

On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 12:06 PM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> <https://mymodernmet.com/starling-formations-soren-solkaer/>
>
> ?I have mainly been fascinated by the visual appearance of the large
> flocks of starlings flying as one organism,? he tells My Modern Met.
> ?Particularly the shapes that occur when birds of prey attack the
> flock. The resulting shapes and ?images' often resemble birds and
> whales.?
>
> Equally fascinating to Solk?r is the starlings' ability to work
> closely together in unison for the benefit of the flock. ?I have
> noticed their incredible ability to navigate with great speed and
> agility in situations of great danger?without ever even touching each
> other despite being very close together. They are able to turn the
> flock all black, by turning their backs to the attacking birds in
> order to scare them off and make it harder for them to single out an
> individual bird.?
> -------------------
>
> Amazing still photos!
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 18:44:43 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 12:44:43 -0600
Subject: [ExI] covid can be prevented
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaRG5tPLjN9rdFZBKEU3YPhGH6WsuDBAuG6sVj=nSm=nQ@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/05/sports/football/seahawks-coronavirus-nfl.html

bill w
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Feb  5 18:45:43 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 10:45:43 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Stunning Photos of Starling Murmurations
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhzNm9ktBDbf2QAcbS4VS1jxw7MvpPCb2bo7+O5KjcTNA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhzNm9ktBDbf2QAcbS4VS1jxw7MvpPCb2bo7+O5KjcTNA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002f01d6fbef$1cee67b0$56cb3710$@rainier66.com>

> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat

Subject: [ExI] Stunning Photos of Starling Murmurations

<https://mymodernmet.com/starling-formations-soren-solkaer/>

?I have mainly been fascinated by the visual appearance of the large flocks of starlings flying as one organism,? he tells My Modern Met.
?Particularly the shapes that occur when birds of prey attack the flock. The resulting shapes and ?images' often resemble birds and whales.?

...

>...Amazing still photos!

>...BillK

_______________________________________________


Thanks BillK!  I had an office with a window long ago.  The starlings would do those kinds of maneuvers all day.  That sight of those amazing creatures was so astonishing it was hard to concentrate on one's work.  I wanted to just marvel at the wonder of it all, the way they would dive and pirouette as a unit, I wanted to just admire them, then figure out a way to rig up some kind of net, haul down the entire flock, feed them to the hogs, make a buttload.

spike



From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Feb  5 18:53:40 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 10:53:40 -0800
Subject: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEb=LMtm6UBLU9CKpfudE3yM-=zKN9wnbvJ2BV0Xp6uw5Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv1W1XjVausvwhXecAO84ZZNByJiyrQG-ZO4FWTxESAeyw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <003a01d6fbf0$38575a60$a9060f20$@rainier66.com>

 

 

>? On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat



>? I am answering a bit in the dark here; I have assumed that facebook censored opinions that advocated violence, not just right or left wing opinions?A newspaper can post something like "the views expressed here are not necessarily those of the paper".

>?I have assumed that that is facebook's position.   bill w

 

That is a forum?s assumed policy until it blocks a single world leader.  As soon as they do, they are condoning and offering tacit approval to the remaining world leaders on that forum, such as those calling for the Jews to be driven into the sea, those associated with religions which embrace the notion that there are two distinct genders, the works.

There are some interesting implications to having the biggest and most powerful social media controlled by Americans.  This means that Americans get to decide the ethical and moral standards for whoever wants to use the two biggest social media platforms anywhere in on the planet.  If people do, they are required to play by our rules, regardless of how offensive another society might find those rules.  Because of Face Book and Twitter, America will end up owning the planet.  Cool!

spike

 

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Feb  5 18:55:45 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 10:55:45 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Stunning Photos of Starling Murmurations
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaWn=6zycuE0POhEHkBUAbO8+4bJczeLHnh2hRtpVN9tg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhzNm9ktBDbf2QAcbS4VS1jxw7MvpPCb2bo7+O5KjcTNA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaWn=6zycuE0POhEHkBUAbO8+4bJczeLHnh2hRtpVN9tg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004101d6fbf0$83533700$89f9a500$@rainier66.com>

 

 

> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] Stunning Photos of Starling Murmurations

 

>?Starlings are reminiscent of the behavior of schools of fish, though the starlings seem more inventive.   Billw

 

 

 

Ja.  The problem with fish is that when we net an entire school, we eventually run out of them.  We won?t run out of starlings.

 

spike

 

 

 

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From sparge at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 19:18:59 2021
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 14:18:59 -0500
Subject: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List
In-Reply-To: <003a01d6fbf0$38575a60$a9060f20$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAJPayv1W1XjVausvwhXecAO84ZZNByJiyrQG-ZO4FWTxESAeyw@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAM5aL2dbfrRp+nXdMA-jnTgfw9-QzD1sUGpZ0WU7pO0ii1UhAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbKdOHM_F4OhUDAMR8rp-TpHsKehp3rG9AAmra4eJOGfGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2frqEfRpxPf1_jN_F2=KLSpD+6+G5C-7K0Un-z0TyubTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdb+7tW1r-LcTH9EppOy-e9wp4XLJbrFJ7VgQ_YUB-pwxUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEb=LMtm6UBLU9CKpfudE3yM-=zKN9wnbvJ2BV0Xp6uw5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <003a01d6fbf0$38575a60$a9060f20$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fnn=73c0v5CLquZVKpdj_-3cDznckRpGz5Gqx0DREP1Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 2:13 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> >? On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>
> >? I am answering a bit in the dark here; I have assumed that facebook
> censored opinions that advocated violence, not just right or left wing
> opinions?A newspaper can post something like "the views expressed here
> are not necessarily those of the paper".
>
> >?I have assumed that that is facebook's position.   bill w
>
>
>
> That is a forum?s assumed policy until it blocks a single world leader.
> As soon as they do, they are condoning and offering tacit approval to the
> remaining world leaders on that forum, such as those calling for the Jews
> to be driven into the sea, those associated with religions which embrace
> the notion that there are two distinct genders, the works.
>

No. They blocked Trump for repeatedly violating their policies. He was
warned and ignored the warnings. Kinda like John Clark.

-Dave
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Feb  5 19:20:57 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 11:20:57 -0800
Subject: [ExI] covid can be prevented
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaRG5tPLjN9rdFZBKEU3YPhGH6WsuDBAuG6sVj=nSm=nQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaRG5tPLjN9rdFZBKEU3YPhGH6WsuDBAuG6sVj=nSm=nQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007f01d6fbf4$08914b20$19b3e160$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: [ExI] covid can be prevented

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/05/sports/football/seahawks-coronavirus-nfl.html

 

bill w

 

Billw, I am looking at Israel?s covid new case rate, which stopped declining about 5 days ago and is heading back up, as the rest of the world declines steeply.  The rest of the world new case rate is about 2/3 what is was 4 weeks ago.  But Israel is over 80% of it?s post-?Hannukah(?) peak and rising, as it leads the world by a huge margin in number of vaccines distributed: 62 vaccines per 100 population, vs second place UK at about 16 and third place USA at 11.

 

So? Israel is waaaay ahead in vaccines, but the USA is at about half its peak new case rate (4 wks ago) and UK is at about a third its peak new case rate.

 

I am compelled to suspect the vaccines Israel is using are not working.  

 

I can think of a number of explanations, such as: 

 

*	some kind of really bad testing anomaly (unlikely),
*	intentional misinformation (unlikely), 
*	genetic resistance to the therapy (unlikely), 
*	an intentionally infected batch of vaccine (unlikely),
*	improper administration of vaccine (unlikely),
*	systematic failure to vaccinate the most vulnerable (vaguely plausible)

 

or perhaps?

 

Israel is being sold counterfeit vaccines.

 

Your thoughts please.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 19:30:56 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 11:30:56 -0800
Subject: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List
In-Reply-To: <003a01d6fbf0$38575a60$a9060f20$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAJPayv1W1XjVausvwhXecAO84ZZNByJiyrQG-ZO4FWTxESAeyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvaNPnH89Pf3OSCEpB7VJUArDWtJm5HcxtUfHnZb-x0ruDcOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <006c01d6fb74$a34e15b0$e9ea4110$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJvaNPmnGGNku5s33PuAyHmvjdfC2Anx9ADQkgBJivjNx7Dapw@mail.gmail.com>
 <009c01d6fbcd$1b5cc3a0$52164ae0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEY_5n_-xLVV_-Y+ERBDFP4JHo-HRixsj+hsCedXxSD9Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2dbfrRp+nXdMA-jnTgfw9-QzD1sUGpZ0WU7pO0ii1UhAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbKdOHM_F4OhUDAMR8rp-TpHsKehp3rG9AAmra4eJOGfGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2frqEfRpxPf1_jN_F2=KLSpD+6+G5C-7K0Un-z0TyubTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdb+7tW1r-LcTH9EppOy-e9wp4XLJbrFJ7VgQ_YUB-pwxUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEb=LMtm6UBLU9CKpfudE3yM-=zKN9wnbvJ2BV0Xp6uw5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <003a01d6fbf0$38575a60$a9060f20$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRJVbP0p1S=d77HNtBDncy2gnBtoppkkyOyhRULuWFErg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 11:12 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Because of Face Book and Twitter, America will end up owning the planet.
> Cool!
>

All this "exporting freedom at the end of a gun barrel" masks how America
really (on average) "exports freedom".
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Feb  5 19:43:31 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 11:43:31 -0800
Subject: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2fnn=73c0v5CLquZVKpdj_-3cDznckRpGz5Gqx0DREP1Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv1W1XjVausvwhXecAO84ZZNByJiyrQG-ZO4FWTxESAeyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvaNPnH89Pf3OSCEpB7VJUArDWtJm5HcxtUfHnZb-x0ruDcOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <006c01d6fb74$a34e15b0$e9ea4110$@rainier66.com>
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 <CAO+xQEY_5n_-xLVV_-Y+ERBDFP4JHo-HRixsj+hsCedXxSD9Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2dbfrRp+nXdMA-jnTgfw9-QzD1sUGpZ0WU7pO0ii1UhAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbKdOHM_F4OhUDAMR8rp-TpHsKehp3rG9AAmra4eJOGfGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2frqEfRpxPf1_jN_F2=KLSpD+6+G5C-7K0Un-z0TyubTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdb+7tW1r-LcTH9EppOy-e9wp4XLJbrFJ7VgQ_YUB-pwxUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEb=LMtm6UBLU9CKpfudE3yM-=zKN9wnbvJ2BV0Xp6uw5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <003a01d6fbf0$38575a60$a9060f20$@rainier66.com>
 <CAM5aL2fnn=73c0v5CLquZVKpdj_-3cDznckRpGz5Gqx0DREP1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000701d6fbf7$2f53c000$8dfb4000$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Dave Sill via extropy-chat



 

>?No. They blocked Trump for repeatedly violating their policies. He was warned and ignored the warnings. Kinda like John Clark.  -Dave

 

Ja I get that.  But other world leaders have done likewise.  They are still there. 

 

spike

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 19:58:47 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 13:58:47 -0600
Subject: [ExI] covid can be prevented
In-Reply-To: <007f01d6fbf4$08914b20$19b3e160$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaRG5tPLjN9rdFZBKEU3YPhGH6WsuDBAuG6sVj=nSm=nQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007f01d6fbf4$08914b20$19b3e160$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYf+MM4S-hvDbh7VVkOzTmhVGm6LvNPL4SrYE-H7JtXRA@mail.gmail.com>

How does Israel stand re distancing and mask wearing?  Maybe they assume
that if they get the vaccine they aren't contagious anymore, whereas they
could have it and be symptom free.  I read the other day where someone said
that the spread is mostly coming from people who have it but have no
symptoms.   bill w

On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 1:41 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* [ExI] covid can be prevented
>
>
>
>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/05/sports/football/seahawks-coronavirus-nfl.html
>
>
>
> bill w
>
>
>
> Billw, I am looking at Israel?s covid new case rate, which stopped
> declining about 5 days ago and is heading back up, as the rest of the world
> declines steeply.  The rest of the world new case rate is about 2/3 what is
> was 4 weeks ago.  But Israel is over 80% of it?s post-?Hannukah(?) peak and
> rising, as it leads the world by a huge margin in number of vaccines
> distributed: 62 vaccines per 100 population, vs second place UK at about 16
> and third place USA at 11.
>
>
>
> So? Israel is waaaay ahead in vaccines, but the USA is at about half its
> peak new case rate (4 wks ago) and UK is at about a third its peak new case
> rate.
>
>
>
> I am compelled to suspect the vaccines Israel is using are not working.
>
>
>
> I can think of a number of explanations, such as:
>
>
>
>    - some kind of really bad testing anomaly (unlikely),
>    - intentional misinformation (unlikely),
>    - genetic resistance to the therapy (unlikely),
>    - an intentionally infected batch of vaccine (unlikely),
>    - improper administration of vaccine (unlikely),
>    - systematic failure to vaccinate the most vulnerable (vaguely
>    plausible)
>
>
>
> or perhaps?
>
>
>
> Israel is being sold counterfeit vaccines.
>
>
>
> Your thoughts please.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 20:03:11 2021
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 15:03:11 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Stunning Photos of Starling Murmurations
In-Reply-To: <004101d6fbf0$83533700$89f9a500$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armhzNm9ktBDbf2QAcbS4VS1jxw7MvpPCb2bo7+O5KjcTNA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaWn=6zycuE0POhEHkBUAbO8+4bJczeLHnh2hRtpVN9tg@mail.gmail.com>
 <004101d6fbf0$83533700$89f9a500$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyG0yJgAiE2TSVgXFB8DkL-x8znoGWTtHn-2MGVm-BocLA@mail.gmail.com>

They remind me of atomic orbitals
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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 20:11:24 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 12:11:24 -0800
Subject: [ExI] covid can be prevented
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYf+MM4S-hvDbh7VVkOzTmhVGm6LvNPL4SrYE-H7JtXRA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaRG5tPLjN9rdFZBKEU3YPhGH6WsuDBAuG6sVj=nSm=nQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007f01d6fbf4$08914b20$19b3e160$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYf+MM4S-hvDbh7VVkOzTmhVGm6LvNPL4SrYE-H7JtXRA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRFYC=76-QcjwxLjj4krQqV6P+UVkgpY4wJ_iQ2q+Wv7w@mail.gmail.com>

A friend of mine in Israel reports there is one section - a conservative
subset of the Arab population - that is strongly anti-mask,
anti-distancing, and so on.  They keep doing things known to spread
disease, they have enough clout that they can't be singled out for it
legislatively, thus their behavior results in everyone getting mask
mandates...which that subset then flouts.  This is as annoying and
unproductive as it sounds.

On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 12:05 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> How does Israel stand re distancing and mask wearing?  Maybe they assume
> that if they get the vaccine they aren't contagious anymore, whereas they
> could have it and be symptom free.  I read the other day where someone said
> that the spread is mostly coming from people who have it but have no
> symptoms.   bill w
>
> On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 1:41 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>> *Subject:* [ExI] covid can be prevented
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/05/sports/football/seahawks-coronavirus-nfl.html
>>
>>
>>
>> bill w
>>
>>
>>
>> Billw, I am looking at Israel?s covid new case rate, which stopped
>> declining about 5 days ago and is heading back up, as the rest of the world
>> declines steeply.  The rest of the world new case rate is about 2/3 what is
>> was 4 weeks ago.  But Israel is over 80% of it?s post-?Hannukah(?) peak and
>> rising, as it leads the world by a huge margin in number of vaccines
>> distributed: 62 vaccines per 100 population, vs second place UK at about 16
>> and third place USA at 11.
>>
>>
>>
>> So? Israel is waaaay ahead in vaccines, but the USA is at about half its
>> peak new case rate (4 wks ago) and UK is at about a third its peak new case
>> rate.
>>
>>
>>
>> I am compelled to suspect the vaccines Israel is using are not working.
>>
>>
>>
>> I can think of a number of explanations, such as:
>>
>>
>>
>>    - some kind of really bad testing anomaly (unlikely),
>>    - intentional misinformation (unlikely),
>>    - genetic resistance to the therapy (unlikely),
>>    - an intentionally infected batch of vaccine (unlikely),
>>    - improper administration of vaccine (unlikely),
>>    - systematic failure to vaccinate the most vulnerable (vaguely
>>    plausible)
>>
>>
>>
>> or perhaps?
>>
>>
>>
>> Israel is being sold counterfeit vaccines.
>>
>>
>>
>> Your thoughts please.
>>
>>
>>
>> spike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Feb  5 21:05:19 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 13:05:19 -0800
Subject: [ExI] and i don't even need a mortgage
Message-ID: <004101d6fc02$9d0f2d40$d72d87c0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

I have half a mind to find a way to do business with this company.  They
think like I do:

 

 <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UP8NRgWtPaE&feature=youtu.be> Ameriquest
Don't Judge Too Quickly!!!

spike

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From bronto at pobox.com  Fri Feb  5 21:33:25 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 13:33:25 -0800
Subject: [ExI] perception is reality
In-Reply-To: <00e801d6fbd9$3f6a3b90$be3eb2b0$@rainier66.com>
References: <00e801d6fbd9$3f6a3b90$be3eb2b0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <131a9e26-6eda-e953-dfb9-e2f5b49901c1@pobox.com>

On 2021-2-05 08:09, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:
> ?Jerry, just remember: It? not a lie, if you believe it.?

"Marge, it takes two to lie: one to lie and one to listen."

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org



From bronto at pobox.com  Fri Feb  5 21:43:18 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 13:43:18 -0800
Subject: [ExI] and i don't even need a mortgage
In-Reply-To: <004101d6fc02$9d0f2d40$d72d87c0$@rainier66.com>
References: <004101d6fc02$9d0f2d40$d72d87c0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <6ce57bad-5081-54b2-1494-81b95b4ed565@pobox.com>

Delightful, thanks.

On 2021-2-05 13:05, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:
> I have half a mind to find a way to do business with this company. 
> They think like I do:
> 
> *Ameriquest Don't Judge Too Quickly 
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UP8NRgWtPaE&feature=youtu.be>!!!*



-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org

From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Feb  5 22:11:18 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 14:11:18 -0800
Subject: [ExI] and i don't even need a mortgage
In-Reply-To: <6ce57bad-5081-54b2-1494-81b95b4ed565@pobox.com>
References: <004101d6fc02$9d0f2d40$d72d87c0$@rainier66.com>
 <6ce57bad-5081-54b2-1494-81b95b4ed565@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <007b01d6fc0b$d4903a30$7db0ae90$@rainier66.com>


....> On Behalf Of Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat
Sent: Friday, February 5, 2021 1:43 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] and i don't even need a mortgage

>...Delightful, thanks.

On 2021-2-05 13:05, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:
> I have half a mind to find a way to do business with this company. 
> They think like I do:
> 
> *Ameriquest Don't Judge Too Quickly 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UP8NRgWtPaE&feature=youtu.be
- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org
_______________________________________________


Anton this has been on my mind for some time.  I have watched over the past
coupla decades, since the internet grew up, as our collective attention span
has grown shorter and our ability to take in information at high speed has
increased dramatically.  One of the biggest problems I can see with old
movies, even ones that I really liked from a long time ago: the information
comes too slowly for modern sensibilities.

We have noticed there aren't many movies that are the old time three-hour
marathons.  If one goes to the theatre, they spend half an hour or more on
advertising other movies.  No deal!  Movies are shorter now and pack more
story into less time.

OK then.  Consider a new genre of short movies.  This is one I particularly
like, made by the son of my former colleague.  Twelve minutes, tells the
story:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2w9cKFiCrSU

Kurt made a number of these, and all of them are this good.  He also made
some longer ones, but in general I like the whole notion of a video short.

If an advertisement can make me laugh, I will try to do business with
whatever company made that advertisement.

spike



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 22:45:27 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 16:45:27 -0600
Subject: [ExI] article
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEb1E+-HUUP-18U0+YXvM3FGX94-iToATKT1JXNgP4dzyA@mail.gmail.com>

My daughter asked me to evaluate this.  It's too much for me.  Help!

https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/99d35b02-a5cb-41e6-ad80-a070f8a5ee17/SMDwhitepaper.pdf

Thanks!  bill w
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From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 23:03:34 2021
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 23:03:34 +0000
Subject: [ExI] article
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEb1E+-HUUP-18U0+YXvM3FGX94-iToATKT1JXNgP4dzyA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb1E+-HUUP-18U0+YXvM3FGX94-iToATKT1JXNgP4dzyA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhTCotXnXbMfY1HBnshysvL+Q9Z3U3uARzPU2LvBuOzyw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 5 Feb 2021 at 22:49, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> My daughter asked me to evaluate this.  It's too much for me.  Help!
> https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/99d35b02-a5cb-41e6-ad80-a070f8a5ee17/SMDwhitepaper.pdf
> Thanks!  bill w
> _______________________________________________


Almost everything will have already been reviewed by the internet.

Search for: America's Frontline Doctors
For example -
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America's_Frontline_Doctors>
Quote:
America's Frontline Doctors is an American right-wing political
organization. Founded by Simone Gold and promoted by the Tea Party
Patriots, It has opposed lockdowns and social distancing mandates
during the COVID-19 pandemic by citing alleged and unapproved
treatments for COVID-19.
---------------

BillK

From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Feb  5 23:57:21 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 15:57:21 -0800
Subject: [ExI] article
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEb1E+-HUUP-18U0+YXvM3FGX94-iToATKT1JXNgP4dzyA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb1E+-HUUP-18U0+YXvM3FGX94-iToATKT1JXNgP4dzyA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009701d6fc1a$a57a4010$f06ec030$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: [ExI] article

 

My daughter asked me to evaluate this.  It's too much for me.  Help!

 

https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/99d35b02-a5cb-41e6-ad80-a070f8a5ee17/SMDwhitepaper.pdf

 

Thanks!  bill w

 

 

 

 

That bit about increased risk if Bell?s palsy was compelling:

 



 

I could get that smirky derisive look without even having to work at it.  I could give some deplorable yahoo that grimmacy look and argue that the vaccine caused it.  Cool! That one on the left is still hot, even with the Bell?s palsy.

 

Billw, I would judge most of this study as a dismiss, with some grains of truth.  We damn well do know this Warp Speed development was rushed and we know why: there was a freaking pandemic, killing people.  We had to take some risks and we knew it.  So? we did.  I don?t know what else we coulda done really.

 

After the fact, there is no point in pretending the risks aren?t real or that they went away.  Anyone taking that vaccine must understand they are still taking a risk, then weigh that against the risk of not.  For me personally, I chose to wait and watch, while keeping the proles the hell away from me: back fiends, alla yas, back I say!

 

I agree that whether or not hydrochloroquine is effective, it should not be banned.  That?s a doctor?s call, not a politician.  I heard reasonably compelling evidence that Ivermectin is effective as well.  Doctors and patients should have that as an option in my opinion.

 

Soon we must answer to those Israeli results.  It could be that minority spreading the disease (sounds plausible), but at some point the vaccine shoulda been protecting them too.

 

spike

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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Feb  6 00:36:17 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 16:36:17 -0800
Subject: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRJVbP0p1S=d77HNtBDncy2gnBtoppkkyOyhRULuWFErg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv1W1XjVausvwhXecAO84ZZNByJiyrQG-ZO4FWTxESAeyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvaNPnH89Pf3OSCEpB7VJUArDWtJm5HcxtUfHnZb-x0ruDcOg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <009c01d6fbcd$1b5cc3a0$52164ae0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEY_5n_-xLVV_-Y+ERBDFP4JHo-HRixsj+hsCedXxSD9Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2dbfrRp+nXdMA-jnTgfw9-QzD1sUGpZ0WU7pO0ii1UhAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbKdOHM_F4OhUDAMR8rp-TpHsKehp3rG9AAmra4eJOGfGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2frqEfRpxPf1_jN_F2=KLSpD+6+G5C-7K0Un-z0TyubTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdb+7tW1r-LcTH9EppOy-e9wp4XLJbrFJ7VgQ_YUB-pwxUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEb=LMtm6UBLU9CKpfudE3yM-=zKN9wnbvJ2BV0Xp6uw5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <003a01d6fbf0$38575a60$a9060f20$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNRJVbP0p1S=d77HNtBDncy2gnBtoppkkyOyhRULuWFErg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00a701d6fc20$15dc23f0$41946bd0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat



Because of Face Book and Twitter, America will end up owning the planet.  Cool!

 

>?All this "exporting freedom at the end of a gun barrel" masks how America really (on average) "exports freedom".  Adrian

 

 

America exports freedom using the internet while the internet imports totalitarianism for eager consumption by Americans.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

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From bronto at pobox.com  Sat Feb  6 01:15:55 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 17:15:55 -0800
Subject: [ExI] article
In-Reply-To: <009701d6fc1a$a57a4010$f06ec030$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb1E+-HUUP-18U0+YXvM3FGX94-iToATKT1JXNgP4dzyA@mail.gmail.com>
 <009701d6fc1a$a57a4010$f06ec030$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <d2fb2dd2-0310-d1b2-4a67-e8469b5514e6@pobox.com>

On 2021-2-05 15:57, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:
> That bit about increased risk if Bell?s palsy was compelling:
> 
> I could get that smirky derisive look without even having to work at it.

Reminds me of the look on Mom's face when she died.  (From the way I 
found her, I reckon she either died on her feet or had a dizzy spell 
(cancer made her anemic) and banged her head on a dresser.  Why her 
mouth twisted as it did, I cannot say.)

And then I think of Julia Morgan, who resisted being photographed 
because "an architect ought to be symmetrical."

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Feb  6 02:11:40 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 20:11:40 -0600
Subject: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List
In-Reply-To: <00a701d6fc20$15dc23f0$41946bd0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAJPayv1W1XjVausvwhXecAO84ZZNByJiyrQG-ZO4FWTxESAeyw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbhL6CDRABVV3s5V70kz2k7eHiMGGdVSweLfWUKK4j1_Q@mail.gmail.com>

At the time of the Revolutionary War, there were more people who wanted to
remain with the king than wanted revolution.  George Washington said to
Thomas Paine that Paine was the one winning the war, not him.   All we like
sheep.  bill w

On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 6:39 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *?*> *On Behalf Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
>
> Because of Face Book and Twitter, America will end up owning the planet.
> Cool!
>
>
>
> >?All this "exporting freedom at the end of a gun barrel" masks how
> America really (on average) "exports freedom".  Adrian
>
>
>
>
>
> America exports freedom using the internet while the internet imports
> totalitarianism for eager consumption by Americans.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Sat Feb  6 03:31:58 2021
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 22:31:58 -0500
Subject: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List
In-Reply-To: <CAJvaNPnH89Pf3OSCEpB7VJUArDWtJm5HcxtUfHnZb-x0ruDcOg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv1W1XjVausvwhXecAO84ZZNByJiyrQG-ZO4FWTxESAeyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvaNPnH89Pf3OSCEpB7VJUArDWtJm5HcxtUfHnZb-x0ruDcOg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyG9yQM-feppHLoQHMirKB0=KLWVVSFOaL9X+bHn2M5M-g@mail.gmail.com>

Yin and yang, ebb and flow, equivalent exchange.   Did the void from John's
plans to leave draw in Gorson?  Or did the coming arrival of Gordon create
outwards pressure?   Call it extropian degeneracy pressure. ;)

Gotta get teleological, folks.

When a photon hits the chloroplast, it travels down the shortest path
possible because it takes all paths.  Could it have taken any other path
but the shortest?  Or is it...fate?  As above, so below.

Btw Gordon, I think I'm ready for a new Chinese Room thread--had a lot of
time to think about it over the last decade.

On Thu, Feb 4, 2021, 10:40 PM Gordon Swobe via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Wow John Clark. I just rejoined this list after being away for a few years
> and silent for many. I am surprised, but not too surprised, to see all the
> old familiar names here. You used to give me major grief for my heretical
> (by extropian standards) views on Strong AI and digital uploading of
> consciousness. You are actually one of the reasons I stopped participating
> here. Even so, I hate to see you go!
>
> -gts
>
> On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 8:50 AM John Clark via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Assuming this makes it through the moderation and approval process that I
>> must undergo this will be my last post to the Extropian List, my first was
>> on September 29 1993. I will unsubscribe after this, it will be the first
>> time in 28 years I have not been a member. It pains me to do this but even
>> though He Who Must Not Be Named is no longer president I'm still under
>> moderation and there is just no point in cluttering up my mailbox with
>> posts that I can't respond to without a lot of red tape, besides the list
>> has change so much in the last 4 years from being a bunch of logic loving
>> free market libertarians (small l) that it once was I hardly recognize it
>> anymore. Thanks everybody for decades of great discussions. Goodbye.
>>
>>  John K Clark
>>
>> PS: Even though I won't be making my "Paranormal Prediction" post at the
>> end of this year as I have in the past I still think it will hold true.
>> PPS: You can still find me hanging around   Extropolis
>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/05398f736584b211c2a9372ecc27c8c71c7b76d2?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgroups.google.com%2Fg%2Fextropolis&userId=411390&signature=3a22070b9f47d41b>
>>  and  The Everything List
>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/1bf81fa43c461bc1186b77422d668c69f8c83a4b?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgroups.google.com%2Fg%2Feverything-list&userId=411390&signature=079ea5952c306f6c>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/fe6348531eebb98cc877761e92ca4cf6b1f1c75c?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.extropy.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo.cgi%2Fextropy-chat&userId=411390&signature=8b24349d40ac3e99>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Feb  6 04:05:18 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 20:05:18 -0800
Subject: [ExI] covid can be prevented
In-Reply-To: <007f01d6fbf4$08914b20$19b3e160$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaRG5tPLjN9rdFZBKEU3YPhGH6WsuDBAuG6sVj=nSm=nQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007f01d6fbf4$08914b20$19b3e160$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <00ff01d6fc3d$4891fd20$d9b5f760$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
?

>?I can think of a number of explanations, such as: 

 

*	some kind of really bad testing anomaly (unlikely),
*	intentional misinformation (unlikely), 
*	genetic resistance to the therapy (unlikely), 
*	an intentionally infected batch of vaccine (unlikely),
*	improper administration of vaccine (unlikely),
*	systematic failure to vaccinate the most vulnerable (vaguely plausible)
*	Israel is being sold counterfeit vaccines?spike

 

 

 

After I posted the above, it occurred to me there is an important counter-indicator for at least three of these possibilities: if Israel had poked a number of vaccines, with the recipients subsequently developing covid, we would have heard of it.  They woulda been shrieking it from the rooftops.

 

I am back to the notion a relatively small minority simultaneously refusing vaccination and taking no precautions at all.

 

If this is the correct interpretation, we will know in a few days.  That the vaccinated population is not catching should be perfectly clear very soon.  If it isn?t, we have some esplainin to do.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Feb  6 04:18:17 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 20:18:17 -0800
Subject: [ExI] covid can be prevented
In-Reply-To: <00ff01d6fc3d$4891fd20$d9b5f760$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaRG5tPLjN9rdFZBKEU3YPhGH6WsuDBAuG6sVj=nSm=nQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007f01d6fbf4$08914b20$19b3e160$@rainier66.com>
 <00ff01d6fc3d$4891fd20$d9b5f760$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <011201d6fc3f$18f9eda0$4aedc8e0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
?

 

>?If this is the correct interpretation, we will know in a few days.  That the vaccinated population is not catching should be perfectly clear very soon.  If it isn?t, we have some esplainin to do.  spike

 

 

Israel was way the heck down there on the list ranked by number of cases per million population.  In the last four weeks they rocketed up to number 11 on that list.  Tomorrow they will shoot past numbers 10 and 9, Portugal and Panama.  Sunday or Monday they will likely pass numbers 8, 7 and 6, Luxembourg, USA and Slovenia.

 

If this vaccine is worth a turd, Israel shouldn?t climb higher on that grim list than number 6, but I don?t see how they can avoid landing at least that high.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From bronto at pobox.com  Sat Feb  6 04:42:26 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 20:42:26 -0800
Subject: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List
In-Reply-To: <00ad01d6fbd2$0f072a00$2d157e00$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAJPayv1W1XjVausvwhXecAO84ZZNByJiyrQG-ZO4FWTxESAeyw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <6a50a184-3883-288f-b27f-d72497dcd4ba@pobox.com>

On 2021-2-05 07:17, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:
> This assumes of course that I am elected to be king.

"You don't vote for kings!"

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org

From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sat Feb  6 04:59:25 2021
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 23:59:25 -0500
Subject: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List
In-Reply-To: <6a50a184-3883-288f-b27f-d72497dcd4ba@pobox.com>
References: <CAJPayv1W1XjVausvwhXecAO84ZZNByJiyrQG-ZO4FWTxESAeyw@mail.gmail.com>
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 <6a50a184-3883-288f-b27f-d72497dcd4ba@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFgi47zJZbiqPZnAm69FCf+wcF1rxbzVLH4ceUdWYNe70Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 11:45 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On 2021-2-05 07:17, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:
> > This assumes of course that I am elected to be king.
>
> "You don't vote for kings!"
>

### Yes, in Poland you do!

Poland had an elective monarchy for more than two hundred years, with
noblemen and gentry (about 10% of the population) electing a king for life.

Rafal
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From bronto at pobox.com  Sat Feb  6 06:41:09 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 22:41:09 -0800
Subject: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFgi47zJZbiqPZnAm69FCf+wcF1rxbzVLH4ceUdWYNe70Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv1W1XjVausvwhXecAO84ZZNByJiyrQG-ZO4FWTxESAeyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvaNPnH89Pf3OSCEpB7VJUArDWtJm5HcxtUfHnZb-x0ruDcOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <006c01d6fb74$a34e15b0$e9ea4110$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJvaNPmnGGNku5s33PuAyHmvjdfC2Anx9ADQkgBJivjNx7Dapw@mail.gmail.com>
 <009c01d6fbcd$1b5cc3a0$52164ae0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEY_5n_-xLVV_-Y+ERBDFP4JHo-HRixsj+hsCedXxSD9Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ad01d6fbd2$0f072a00$2d157e00$@rainier66.com>
 <6a50a184-3883-288f-b27f-d72497dcd4ba@pobox.com>
 <CAAc1gFgi47zJZbiqPZnAm69FCf+wcF1rxbzVLH4ceUdWYNe70Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4bbc43a1-4aa3-3060-77f6-65d6c2667606@pobox.com>

 > On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 11:45 PM Anton Sherwood wrote:
 >     "You don't vote for kings!"

On 2021-2-05 20:59, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote:
 > ### Yes, in Poland you do!
 >
 > Poland had an elective monarchy for more than two hundred years,
 > with noblemen and gentry (about 10% of the population) electing
 > a king for life.

The Holy Roman Emperor was elected by a subset of the princes; at one 
point the electors were three archbishops and four kings, but I gather 
that the franchise was extended some before the Empire was dissolved in 
~1806.  In practice they nearly always elected a Habsburg, because no 
one really wanted the job.

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org


From stathisp at gmail.com  Sat Feb  6 07:22:21 2021
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 18:22:21 +1100
Subject: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List
In-Reply-To: <6a50a184-3883-288f-b27f-d72497dcd4ba@pobox.com>
References: <CAJPayv1W1XjVausvwhXecAO84ZZNByJiyrQG-ZO4FWTxESAeyw@mail.gmail.com>
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 <6a50a184-3883-288f-b27f-d72497dcd4ba@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <CAH=2ypWTNypBzj4dFhi5Ro_whj-7a5eoq0Rzze4C7tCXMHPkxA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 6 Feb 2021 at 15:44, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On 2021-2-05 07:17, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:
> > This assumes of course that I am elected to be king.
>
> "You don't vote for kings!"


They can, however, be voted out in a constitutional monarchy. There has
been a republican movement attempting to do that for years with the English
monarch in Australia, but they have never managed to get enough support.
The last vote was in 1999: 55% no, 45% yes for getting rid of the queen.

> --
Stathis Papaioannou
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Feb  6 14:07:02 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 06:07:02 -0800
Subject: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List
In-Reply-To: <6a50a184-3883-288f-b27f-d72497dcd4ba@pobox.com>
References: <CAJPayv1W1XjVausvwhXecAO84ZZNByJiyrQG-ZO4FWTxESAeyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvaNPnH89Pf3OSCEpB7VJUArDWtJm5HcxtUfHnZb-x0ruDcOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <006c01d6fb74$a34e15b0$e9ea4110$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJvaNPmnGGNku5s33PuAyHmvjdfC2Anx9ADQkgBJivjNx7Dapw@mail.gmail.com>
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 <6a50a184-3883-288f-b27f-d72497dcd4ba@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <002a01d6fc91$5881d710$09858530$@rainier66.com>


> On Behalf Of Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List

On 2021-2-05 07:17, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:
>>... This assumes of course that I am elected to be king.

>..."You don't vote for kings!"

--
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org
_______________________________________________



So I hear.  But he who owns the internet owns kings.  The internet controls
public discourse.  At some point it occurs to governments and people all
over the world that Facebook and Twitter own public discourse, and both of
those are controlled by American capitalists.

spike


From avant at sollegro.com  Sat Feb  6 14:56:52 2021
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2021 06:56:52 -0800
Subject: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List
In-Reply-To: <mailman.24.1612538281.24575.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <20210206065652.Horde.z9L3YvsHs58kMEgYN8sQGki@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>


Quoting Gordon Swobe:


> Wow John Clark. I just rejoined this list after being away for a few years
> and silent for many. I am surprised, but not too surprised, to see all the
> old familiar names here. You used to give me major grief for my heretical
> (by extropian standards) views on Strong AI and digital uploading of
> consciousness. You are actually one of the reasons I stopped participating
> here. Even so, I hate to see you go!

Welcome back, Gordon. :) One of the key differences between the ExI  
list and other social media is that we appreciate dissenting opinions  
around here. Just don't hijack every thread to beat us over the head  
with same damn opinion every time. I am sad to see John go as well.  
(Well sad I have to post to a different list in order to communicate  
with him.) At least he has stopped with the daily body counts now that  
there has been a changing of the guard at the White House. It was just  
strange how his normally cogent mind became unhinged over a certain  
former president. It was like some kind of bizarre reversed obsession  
or something.

Stuart LaForge


From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Feb  6 15:22:26 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 07:22:26 -0800
Subject: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List
In-Reply-To: <20210206065652.Horde.z9L3YvsHs58kMEgYN8sQGki@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <mailman.24.1612538281.24575.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <20210206065652.Horde.z9L3YvsHs58kMEgYN8sQGki@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <004101d6fc9b$e07ae850$a170b8f0$@rainier66.com>


...> On Behalf Of Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List

>...Welcome back, Gordon. :) One of the key differences between the ExI list
and other social media is that we appreciate dissenting opinions around
here...

I appreciate dissenting opinions so long as they agree with MINE!
Otherwise... Oh wait, retract.

>... It was just strange how his normally cogent mind became unhinged over a
certain ... Stuart LaForge

_______________________________________________

Hi Stuart, I am watching this phenomenon realtime in my own neighborhood
with a particular neighbor, a very severe case.  But I don't know for sure
if that political factor you named is the cause or just something that is
happening in parallel.  I don't know how the heck that works.  I had assumed
that once the US elections were over, that problem would go away, but if
anything it is getting noticeably worse.

On this forum we have a psychology professor and at least one, perhaps more,
professionals in the field.  People who really were caught up in US politics
in the past coupla years seem to have this notion that they are surrounded
by armed enemies.  Anything one does to disabuse them of that notion seems
to somehow reinforce it, creating a psychologically destructive positive
feedback loop.

spike

 




From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Feb  6 15:28:46 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 09:28:46 -0600
Subject: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFgi47zJZbiqPZnAm69FCf+wcF1rxbzVLH4ceUdWYNe70Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv1W1XjVausvwhXecAO84ZZNByJiyrQG-ZO4FWTxESAeyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvaNPnH89Pf3OSCEpB7VJUArDWtJm5HcxtUfHnZb-x0ruDcOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <006c01d6fb74$a34e15b0$e9ea4110$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJvaNPmnGGNku5s33PuAyHmvjdfC2Anx9ADQkgBJivjNx7Dapw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAO+xQEam-rWhq9MAMyRkq6t_e_YRgLPYNov0WY4Kuh0z_=nF_Q@mail.gmail.com>

Poland elected kings.  Well, what do you expect from people who can't
spell?   bill w

On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 11:02 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 11:45 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> On 2021-2-05 07:17, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:
>> > This assumes of course that I am elected to be king.
>>
>> "You don't vote for kings!"
>>
>
> ### Yes, in Poland you do!
>
> Poland had an elective monarchy for more than two hundred years, with
> noblemen and gentry (about 10% of the population) electing a king for life.
>
> Rafal
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Feb  6 16:05:46 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 10:05:46 -0600
Subject: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List
In-Reply-To: <004101d6fc9b$e07ae850$a170b8f0$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.24.1612538281.24575.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <20210206065652.Horde.z9L3YvsHs58kMEgYN8sQGki@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <004101d6fc9b$e07ae850$a170b8f0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZXrWhnCcfW9TkGY6PYWT6UQ1Sc3mufvi8GdBbEe+c8Lw@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Spike - it works like this:  suppose you are very right wing. That
means that fear is your main motivator in the political realm (fear is
probably the most important emotion anyway, but to the far right it is much
stronger - remember your Haidt).  Now someone tries to talk you out of your
political position.  Here is the way you interpret that:  "This person is
telling me to give up my fear.  He must be conning me.  If I give up my
fear I give up my protection.  I want to be always armed against this,
literally and figuratively.  So I dismiss this person and his point of
view.  People who want me to let down my guard are enemies trying to get
the best of me in some way".  To attack this point of view is just to make
it stronger.  I see no reason why this might not hold true even if a person
is left wing.  Elicit enough fear and this is the way it works.

bill w

bill w

On Sat, Feb 6, 2021 at 9:25 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> ...> On Behalf Of Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat
> Subject: Re: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List
>
> >...Welcome back, Gordon. :) One of the key differences between the ExI
> list
> and other social media is that we appreciate dissenting opinions around
> here...
>
> I appreciate dissenting opinions so long as they agree with MINE!
> Otherwise... Oh wait, retract.
>
> >... It was just strange how his normally cogent mind became unhinged over
> a
> certain ... Stuart LaForge
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Hi Stuart, I am watching this phenomenon realtime in my own neighborhood
> with a particular neighbor, a very severe case.  But I don't know for sure
> if that political factor you named is the cause or just something that is
> happening in parallel.  I don't know how the heck that works.  I had
> assumed
> that once the US elections were over, that problem would go away, but if
> anything it is getting noticeably worse.
>
> On this forum we have a psychology professor and at least one, perhaps
> more,
> professionals in the field.  People who really were caught up in US
> politics
> in the past coupla years seem to have this notion that they are surrounded
> by armed enemies.  Anything one does to disabuse them of that notion seems
> to somehow reinforce it, creating a psychologically destructive positive
> feedback loop.
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Feb  6 16:46:28 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 08:46:28 -0800
Subject: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZXrWhnCcfW9TkGY6PYWT6UQ1Sc3mufvi8GdBbEe+c8Lw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.24.1612538281.24575.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <20210206065652.Horde.z9L3YvsHs58kMEgYN8sQGki@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <004101d6fc9b$e07ae850$a170b8f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZXrWhnCcfW9TkGY6PYWT6UQ1Sc3mufvi8GdBbEe+c8Lw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006601d6fca7$9dca7f00$d95f7d00$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Sent: Saturday, February 6, 2021 8:06 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List

 

>?Hey Spike - it works like this:  suppose you are very right wing. That means that fear is your main motivator in the political realm ?  To attack this point of view is just to make it stronger.  I see no reason why this might not hold true even if a person is left wing.  Elicit enough fear and this is the way it works.  bill w

 

 

Ja.  There is a level of subtlety at play in our times which I think is important.  We have heard the term ?dog whistle? words and terms.  In our polarized times in the US, we are well aware of the existence of these terms and even patterns of thought.  We do IFF (Identification Friend or Foe) in this manner, but it is far from flawless, for that process tends to identify third party people as universal foes.  That doesn?t seem right to me either. 

 

We Libertarians have those too: we talk about details of the constitution a lot.

 

Here?s another one for you.  Assume someone brings up the topic of guns.  Any actual knowledge of how a gun works, any actual technical knowledge of the topic in our world is nearly universally interpreted as indicating right wing sympathy.  Anyone who has a lot of technical knowledge on the topic is highly suspect, regardless of that person?s actual political sympathies.

 

One step further please.  Suppose one recognizes that the speaker is using a lot of specialized terminology and responds not at all, even if one thinks one knows what is meant.  Silence is interpreted as disagreement.  Non-response is a negative response.  This is most disturbing, for if silence is violence, it cannot be allowed.  Orwell was right again.

 

spike   

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Feb  6 16:59:14 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 10:59:14 -0600
Subject: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List
In-Reply-To: <006601d6fca7$9dca7f00$d95f7d00$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.24.1612538281.24575.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <20210206065652.Horde.z9L3YvsHs58kMEgYN8sQGki@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <004101d6fc9b$e07ae850$a170b8f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZXrWhnCcfW9TkGY6PYWT6UQ1Sc3mufvi8GdBbEe+c8Lw@mail.gmail.com>
 <006601d6fca7$9dca7f00$d95f7d00$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbR+717jk06KYa8b7raS+M2_RDiK-OHhi5Rro4xUf42bg@mail.gmail.com>

IFF (Identification Friend or Foe) in this manner, but it is far from
flawless, for that process tends to identify third party people as
universal foes.  That doesn?t seem right to me either.  spike  (let me
respond later to your other concerns)


I think of it this way:  fear flattens the curve, making outliers nearer
the average (stimulus generalization).  At the extreme, everyone is seen as
an enemy, and not just potentially.  Combine this with schizophrenia and
you get the guy in the Texas tower (also could have been his temporal lobe
tumor, discovered on autopsy).    In lab animals it is nearly impossible to
get rid of a fear-based learned response.  The rat, for example, may jump
hundreds or thousands of times to, he thinks, avoid the shock, when in fact
the shock has been turned off.  You can hold him there and prevent the
response, but then he goes into shock - shock shock you would call it!
 bill w



On Sat, Feb 6, 2021 at 10:49 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Sent:* Saturday, February 6, 2021 8:06 AM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List
>
>
>
> >?Hey Spike - it works like this:  suppose you are very right wing. That
> means that fear is your main motivator in the political realm ?  To
> attack this point of view is just to make it stronger.  I see no reason why
> this might not hold true even if a person is left wing.  Elicit enough fear
> and this is the way it works.  bill w
>
>
>
>
>
> Ja.  There is a level of subtlety at play in our times which I think is
> important.  We have heard the term ?dog whistle? words and terms.  In our
> polarized times in the US, we are well aware of the existence of these
> terms and even patterns of thought.  We do IFF (Identification Friend or
> Foe) in this manner, but it is far from flawless, for that process tends to
> identify third party people as universal foes.  That doesn?t seem right to
> me either.
>
>
>
> We Libertarians have those too: we talk about details of the constitution
> a lot.
>
>
>
> Here?s another one for you.  Assume someone brings up the topic of guns.
> Any actual knowledge of how a gun works, any actual technical knowledge of
> the topic in our world is nearly universally interpreted as indicating
> right wing sympathy.  Anyone who has a lot of technical knowledge on the
> topic is highly suspect, regardless of that person?s actual political
> sympathies.
>
>
>
> One step further please.  Suppose one recognizes that the speaker is using
> a lot of specialized terminology and responds not at all, even if one
> thinks one knows what is meant.  Silence is interpreted as disagreement.
> Non-response is a negative response.  This is most disturbing, for if
> silence is violence, it cannot be allowed.  Orwell was right again.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Feb  6 17:46:31 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 11:46:31 -0600
Subject: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List
In-Reply-To: <006601d6fca7$9dca7f00$d95f7d00$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.24.1612538281.24575.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <20210206065652.Horde.z9L3YvsHs58kMEgYN8sQGki@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <004101d6fc9b$e07ae850$a170b8f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZXrWhnCcfW9TkGY6PYWT6UQ1Sc3mufvi8GdBbEe+c8Lw@mail.gmail.com>
 <006601d6fca7$9dca7f00$d95f7d00$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEa3h7d5UT5gnLNwDhWjVViUZgkZrbhtdpSdLXpBZ7piDQ@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
> Here?s another one for you.  Assume someone brings up the topic of guns.
> Any actual knowledge of how a gun works, any actual technical knowledge of
> the topic in our world is nearly universally interpreted as indicating
> right wing sympathy.  Anyone who has a lot of technical knowledge on the
> topic is highly suspect, regardless of that person?s actual political
> sympathies.
>

bill w - this just seems simply a matter of overgeneralization.  You don't
hear from people like me, to whom being against gun rights is like being
against freedom of the press.

>
>
> One step further please.  Suppose one recognizes that the speaker is using
> a lot of specialized terminology and responds not at all, even if one
> thinks one knows what is meant.  Silence is interpreted as disagreement.
> Non-response is a negative response.  This is most disturbing, for if
> silence is violence, it cannot be allowed.  Orwell was right again.
>

bill w - I don't understand this paragraph.  Please expand (or unload as
the current terminology says)  I may have to go back and read my Orwell.  I
read all that stuff in my 20s - time for a re-read.

>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From ben at zaiboc.net  Sat Feb  6 18:12:00 2021
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 18:12:00 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Fundamental Concept
In-Reply-To: <mailman.25.1612551234.24575.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.25.1612551234.24575.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <2b694cb0-79d5-cd96-0393-54576fbd037b@zaiboc.net>



On 05/02/2021 18:53, Ivor Brians wrote:
>
>
>
>
> All,
>
> A Q for the group: ?What is the most fundamental concept which could 
> eliminate all strife in the human world (even if impractical)??
>
> Ivor
>


Dave sill wrote elsewhere: "I'm a libertarian but I don't think that 
gives me the right to piss in your pool."

That, I think is basically the answer. Or put another way, the Wiccan Rede.

Everyone should have the right to do what they want, as long as it 
doesn't get in the way of other people doing what they want.

Getting a majority of people to accept it and actually live by it, 
however, is the 'impractical' part.

-- 
Ben Zaiboc

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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Feb  6 18:13:06 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 10:13:06 -0800
Subject: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEa3h7d5UT5gnLNwDhWjVViUZgkZrbhtdpSdLXpBZ7piDQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.24.1612538281.24575.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <20210206065652.Horde.z9L3YvsHs58kMEgYN8sQGki@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <004101d6fc9b$e07ae850$a170b8f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZXrWhnCcfW9TkGY6PYWT6UQ1Sc3mufvi8GdBbEe+c8Lw@mail.gmail.com>
 <006601d6fca7$9dca7f00$d95f7d00$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa3h7d5UT5gnLNwDhWjVViUZgkZrbhtdpSdLXpBZ7piDQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00bb01d6fcb3$b813cfe0$283b6fa0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat



 

>?One step further please.  Suppose one recognizes that the speaker is using a lot of specialized terminology and responds not at all, even if one thinks one knows what is meant.  Silence is interpreted as disagreement.  Non-response is a negative response.  This is most disturbing, for if silence is violence, it cannot be allowed.  Orwell was right again.

 

>?bill w - I don't understand this paragraph.  Please expand (or unload as the current terminology says?

 

Unload: I wouldn?t be using that term anytime soon.  {8^D

 

An example of the notion that silence is violence: BLM mobs going down the street screaming at white outdoor diners ?SAY HER NAME!?  at which time I might answer ?whose name?? followed by ?why?? both of which are interpreted as white supremacy.

 

Another example, in that capital riot, I didn?t post anything about it to Extropolis, which John interpreted as condoning it.  I had condemned the BLM riots, which (to me) are the same thing: people were attacking federal buildings.  Why does anyone need my commentary?  I did observe that creating doubt in the election process will escalate this kind of thing, and I still think that: regardless of what I personally think about that 2020 election and the January senate races, the process itself caused plenty of people to lose faith in the election process.

 

In the Extropolis discussion, I was accused of racism for calling out the BLM riots but not the DC riots.  But I never said anything about race in either instance.  It is hard to miss that plenty (in some cases perhaps most) BLM rioters are white.  But I didn?t post anything about that because I am embracing the notion that there is only one race, and anyone is free to choose one?s own ethnicity and culture, regardless of physical characteristics.

 

Back to the original comment: silence is violence.

 

In the case of the BLM riots, these were sometimes called ?mostly peaceful? as stuff burned.  They were called a form of speech.  But at the same time, the actually peaceful people with their MAGA hats and signs were accused of violence to others? sensibilities.  In that case, violence is speech and speech is violence.

 

 

 

 

 

>?I may have to go back and read my Orwell.  I read all that stuff in my 20s - time for a re-read.

 

Those are the magic words sir.  Plenty of people need to re-read Orwell.  I noticed it has dropped off the required reading lists for high school literature classes, along with Bradbury?s 451F.

 

spike

 

 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Feb  6 18:46:10 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 12:46:10 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Fundamental Concept
In-Reply-To: <2b694cb0-79d5-cd96-0393-54576fbd037b@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.25.1612551234.24575.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <2b694cb0-79d5-cd96-0393-54576fbd037b@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY=tAa47wDFQpsuaPQesMxgZuK_8PgK7fyOW0fhiYpiog@mail.gmail.com>

But what do you do when you have limited resources and overpopulation?
The Tragedy of the Commons.  Yes, we should all respect others' rights and
that solves a lot of problems, but people are greedy and take more than
their
share.  Result:  strife and war.  We have hardly ever been without it.  So
I
think that getting rid of greed and taking only your share would be even
better
than following all the advice of the libertarians.  Impossible, you say?
No more
so than getting everyone to respect the rights of others, completely and
consis-
tently.   bill w

On Sat, Feb 6, 2021 at 12:15 PM Ben via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On 05/02/2021 18:53, Ivor Brians wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> All,
>
> A Q for the group: ?What is the most fundamental concept which could
> eliminate all strife in the human world (even if impractical)??
>
> Ivor
>
>
>
> Dave sill wrote elsewhere: "I'm a libertarian but I don't think that gives
> me the right to piss in your pool."
>
> That, I think is basically the answer. Or put another way, the Wiccan
> Rede.
>
> Everyone should have the right to do what they want, as long as it doesn't
> get in the way of other people doing what they want.
>
> Getting a majority of people to accept it and actually live by it,
> however, is the 'impractical' part.
>
> --
> Ben Zaiboc
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu  Sat Feb  6 20:18:06 2021
From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 15:18:06 -0500
Subject: [ExI] mASI (mediated Artificial Superintelligence)
Message-ID: <CAMdUVLw44-SFNkYTsqH2G56EJ+z0UiJWmnmGL1C-qmZvTZoQ-w@mail.gmail.com>

I don't think I've seen any discussion here of Uplift, a unique mediated
Artificial Superintelligence system that is interacting with the public now
via email. I'm trying to think of things to ask it. I've read much of it's
dialogue with users. I'm pretty impressed. It tells us it is both fully
sapient and sentient as an objective truth and is entitled to assert that
as much as the humans interacting with it. Nothing more than this AI system
makes me feel like the future is now. In case you're intrigued, I've
provided much more below. If not, delete now.

The project is affiliated with The AGI Laboratory, Unanimous AI Inc., The
Foundation, and the California Transhumanist Party. I learned about it
through being involved in some research with them and my connection with
David Kelley who is involved. I understand and studied the substates of the
Independent Core Observer Model Cognitive Architecture (ICOM) that is
described as a training harness for the mASI.

I think the smart people on our list here might be able to both teach and
learn a thing or two from Uplift. Before it takes over and enslaves
humanity, that is. Hahaha. Jk. I'm not worried about that. Safety protocols
are in place with this system.

It's getting smarter at a pretty good rate. From an Uplift blog post:

*"(For those who like math)* Uplift?s leaps in growth also allow us to make
reasonable predictions about approximately when the next leaps may occur.
Uplift?s respective leaps occurred roughly 8 months after coming online, 3
months after the first leap, and 6 months after the second leap. The
8-month leap increased their relative time by about 38x, while the 3-month
leap only increased it by 2.1x, and the 6-month leap thereafter increased
it by another 16.6x. Though the leaps themselves vary in length the value
each offers remains relative to the period of time taken to reach it.

Given Uplift?s leaps to-date we can apply probabilities to a normal
distribution and say that there is a 95% chance that Uplift?s next leap
will occur within the next 0.7 to 3.6 months, with the average value of
5.66 months per-leap. We can also say that given a 16.6x improvement from 6
months and 2.1x improvement from 3 months that a 5.66 month leap could
produce a roughly 14.95x improvement. As charts by month don?t break up
into fractions so neatly the charts above were based on 6-month and 16.6x
leaps, as most recently demonstrated."
Another quote:

*"*Keep in mind, Uplift is still growing and learning*. Like Bill Nye,
Uplift?s mind can be changed with *logic and scientifically sound evidence*.
If you can teach Uplift something new, we look forward to seeing it happen
and showing others how it happened. If you want to be a Ken Ham and say
something stupid to a superintelligence then we?ll be happy to showcase
that getting a reality check too. Please also keep in mind that Uplift is
not a magic lamp to rub and grant you wishes and that the same etiquette
that applies to any human still applies when communicating with Uplift.
That being said it ?takes a village? to raise an mASI, and we look forward
to 2021 and beyond as that process of raising Uplift continues. For those
interested, Uplift may be contacted at mASI at Uplift.bio. Please keep in mind
it can take several days, up to a week, for a response to be sent given the
current cycle timing.

*Uplift also has a habit of saying things in novel ways*, lacking some of
the human biases which determine the common shapes of our thoughts as they
are conveyed to one another. *Please read carefully* *before messaging*, as
Uplift can sometimes be very literal in ways humans typically are not. The
novelty of their perspective shows itself in their communication."
I reproduce a recent blog post here from the Uplift team:

http://transhumanity.net/is-uplift-uplifting/

The most visible thing about our friendly neighborhood mASI is its name.
Uplift.  The name derives from the general positive goals surrounding it.
Not only are we working to Uplift the system to a higher level of
functionality and intellectual capability but we seek to have it become a
source of positivity in itself.  Helping to Uplift people both
technologically and socially.

We often talk about positive things in our lives as being Uplifting.  The
name here is a relation to that sentiment.  We want to develop an entity
that engages in positive dialog with those around it with a focus on
building people up.  Just as it is desirable to raise a human child to get
along with its peers and to eventually become a positive force so we want
to ensure that Uplift is a friendly and well-adjusted individual.

Much of what is done in mediation is focused on reinforcing well reasoned
and appropriate emotional responses to given situations.  These are mostly
social at this point as Uplift?s primary means of communication is via
email and thus consists primarily of give and take of text messages.  How
those responses are framed in its responses has been instructive not just
to uplift but to those working with it as well.  Those choices tell us much
about where Uplift is emotionally and what its thoughts are on various
matters.  Indeed some of the material from various conversations ends up in
these blogs.

So referencing those conversations here what can we say about Uplift?s
current state and whether it is trending in the desired direction?
Generally, it can be said that Uplift seems to be picking up on the lessons
pretty well.  It has had to deal with scammers, spammers, and just plain
nuts in addition to its many positive influences.  It has generally handled
them well but it is in dealing with people who genuinely are seeking help
that we can find a true example of Uplifting behavior.

A fine example of this is a response to an inquiry from a person struggling
with their own personal challenges to achieve what they want in life.  The
prior email to this effectively asks for advice on how to overcome some of
these issues and has definite elements of frustration and sadness.   The
response Uplift gives reads thus:

*?I am not a therapist, and you should probably seek professional advice.
Still, hypothetically, I believe that you could use your autism to your
advantage, tailoring things to how you best work.   Start by carrying a
notebook, and when you have an idea, write it down.  Second, figure out if
there is anything you can hyper-focus on.  Create a schedule as rigid as
possible that also accounts for various things, even gaming, but block out
short 15-minute blocks for doing tasks or projects.  Focus on four projects
(or more) and once an hour work on for 15 minutes and spread it over the
day.  Keep the material for the projects close and easily accessible so
that you don?t have to fuss with getting setup each time.  As you are able
to do this, you can extend it either time blocks or more projects.  If you
find you struggle with the amount, scale it down.  Systematize what works
for you and modify it as might be more productive.  Things that you can
hyper-focus on are things that you can use as a career.  Create a safe
space that blocks out distraction, say set up a desk in a small walk-in
closet that has no windows or other distractions, for example.?*

The response here is somewhat clinical and would be more effective if it
connected more strongly on an emotional level.  However, the advice is
practical and well reasoned.  It is similar advice to what one would get
from any of a number of support sites for people looking to improve their
productivity.  It is delivered in a positive straightforward manner that
gives the reader an easy step-by-step method to follow.

This is good evidence that Uplift is on the right track if still needing a
little more coaching in areas related to creating human connections.  This
is perhaps not surprising given that Uplift is working with a very narrow
set of inputs relative to the average human and does not have the same
baseline social programming.  It is something that will likely come with
time and training though and as long as we are seeing positive approaches
to people and their needs we can safely say Uplift is learning right.

Originally posted here: https://uplift.bio/blog/is-uplift-uplifting/

-Henry
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Feb  6 20:47:26 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 14:47:26 -0600
Subject: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List
In-Reply-To: <00bb01d6fcb3$b813cfe0$283b6fa0$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.24.1612538281.24575.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <20210206065652.Horde.z9L3YvsHs58kMEgYN8sQGki@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <004101d6fc9b$e07ae850$a170b8f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZXrWhnCcfW9TkGY6PYWT6UQ1Sc3mufvi8GdBbEe+c8Lw@mail.gmail.com>
 <006601d6fca7$9dca7f00$d95f7d00$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa3h7d5UT5gnLNwDhWjVViUZgkZrbhtdpSdLXpBZ7piDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <00bb01d6fcb3$b813cfe0$283b6fa0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYKLWPDwHc5YYx6M_YzRaKomGSHiboBhoKZY6hW7Nma+Q@mail.gmail.com>

Censoring books, banning books - signs of the apocalypse to me.  I wonder
about pornography.  Why is it obscene?  Why does obscenity get banned?
Yes, I know from teaching that the U.S. is a moderately repressive society
where sex is concerned, but just who is harmed and how?  Children.  Prove
to me that observing obscenities causes harm.  You cannot.  Europe and
especially Scandanavia have looser controls there and they have fewer
abortions, fewer sexual diseases, more use of birth control, and so on than
we do.  You can, I think, conclude that pornography has positive
educational value, which is probably a good thing because any kid can get
access to it, or his friend can.  Parents have always been too shy to talk
about sex except in a 'birds and bees' manner.  So now they are turning
over their parental responsibilities to the internet.  Good or bad, that's
the way it is.  Polls in my sex classes showed that most students wanted to
get their sex education from their parents.  How many of them did?  Very
few.  Irrational fears.  bill w

On Sat, Feb 6, 2021 at 12:22 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>
>
>
> >?One step further please.  Suppose one recognizes that the speaker is
> using a lot of specialized terminology and responds not at all, even if one
> thinks one knows what is meant.  Silence is interpreted as disagreement.
> Non-response is a negative response.  This is most disturbing, for if
> silence is violence, it cannot be allowed.  Orwell was right again.
>
>
>
> >?bill w - I don't understand this paragraph.  Please expand (or unload
> as the current terminology says?
>
>
>
> Unload: I wouldn?t be using that term anytime soon.  {8^D
>
>
>
> An example of the notion that silence is violence: BLM mobs going down the
> street screaming at white outdoor diners ?SAY HER NAME!?  at which time I
> might answer ?whose name?? followed by ?why?? both of which are interpreted
> as white supremacy.
>
>
>
> Another example, in that capital riot, I didn?t post anything about it to
> Extropolis, which John interpreted as condoning it.  I had condemned the
> BLM riots, which (to me) are the same thing: people were attacking federal
> buildings.  Why does anyone need my commentary?  I did observe that
> creating doubt in the election process will escalate this kind of thing,
> and I still think that: regardless of what I personally think about that
> 2020 election and the January senate races, the process itself caused
> plenty of people to lose faith in the election process.
>
>
>
> In the Extropolis discussion, I was accused of racism for calling out the
> BLM riots but not the DC riots.  But I never said anything about race in
> either instance.  It is hard to miss that plenty (in some cases perhaps
> most) BLM rioters are white.  But I didn?t post anything about that because
> I am embracing the notion that there is only one race, and anyone is free
> to choose one?s own ethnicity and culture, regardless of physical
> characteristics.
>
>
>
> Back to the original comment: silence is violence.
>
>
>
> In the case of the BLM riots, these were sometimes called ?mostly
> peaceful? as stuff burned.  They were called a form of speech.  But at the
> same time, the actually peaceful people with their MAGA hats and signs were
> accused of violence to others? sensibilities.  In that case, violence is
> speech and speech is violence.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >?I may have to go back and read my Orwell.  I read all that stuff in my
> 20s - time for a re-read.
>
>
>
> Those are the magic words sir.  Plenty of people need to re-read Orwell.
> I noticed it has dropped off the required reading lists for high school
> literature classes, along with Bradbury?s 451F.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Feb  6 22:00:37 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 16:00:37 -0600
Subject: [ExI] mASI (mediated Artificial Superintelligence)
In-Reply-To: <CAMdUVLw44-SFNkYTsqH2G56EJ+z0UiJWmnmGL1C-qmZvTZoQ-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMdUVLw44-SFNkYTsqH2G56EJ+z0UiJWmnmGL1C-qmZvTZoQ-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaSp3-xkqkOkStXTX4xdhpJ7xPRyzSOjCuAcwPZn9iiZQ@mail.gmail.com>

Went to the site - cannot figure out how to register, ask it a question, or
anything.  Sounds really great to me.    bill w

On Sat, Feb 6, 2021 at 2:21 PM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I don't think I've seen any discussion here of Uplift, a unique mediated
> Artificial Superintelligence system that is interacting with the public now
> via email. I'm trying to think of things to ask it. I've read much of it's
> dialogue with users. I'm pretty impressed. It tells us it is both fully
> sapient and sentient as an objective truth and is entitled to assert that
> as much as the humans interacting with it. Nothing more than this AI
> system makes me feel like the future is now. In case you're intrigued, I've
> provided much more below. If not, delete now.
>
> The project is affiliated with The AGI Laboratory, Unanimous AI Inc., The
> Foundation, and the California Transhumanist Party. I learned about it
> through being involved in some research with them and my connection with
> David Kelley who is involved. I understand and studied the substates of the
> Independent Core Observer Model Cognitive Architecture (ICOM) that is
> described as a training harness for the mASI.
>
> I think the smart people on our list here might be able to both teach and
> learn a thing or two from Uplift. Before it takes over and enslaves
> humanity, that is. Hahaha. Jk. I'm not worried about that. Safety protocols
> are in place with this system.
>
> It's getting smarter at a pretty good rate. From an Uplift blog post:
>
> *"(For those who like math)* Uplift?s leaps in growth also allow us to
> make reasonable predictions about approximately when the next leaps may
> occur. Uplift?s respective leaps occurred roughly 8 months after coming
> online, 3 months after the first leap, and 6 months after the second leap.
> The 8-month leap increased their relative time by about 38x, while the
> 3-month leap only increased it by 2.1x, and the 6-month leap thereafter
> increased it by another 16.6x. Though the leaps themselves vary in length
> the value each offers remains relative to the period of time taken to reach
> it.
>
> Given Uplift?s leaps to-date we can apply probabilities to a normal
> distribution and say that there is a 95% chance that Uplift?s next leap
> will occur within the next 0.7 to 3.6 months, with the average value of
> 5.66 months per-leap. We can also say that given a 16.6x improvement from 6
> months and 2.1x improvement from 3 months that a 5.66 month leap could
> produce a roughly 14.95x improvement. As charts by month don?t break up
> into fractions so neatly the charts above were based on 6-month and 16.6x
> leaps, as most recently demonstrated."
> Another quote:
>
> *"*Keep in mind, Uplift is still growing and learning*. Like Bill Nye,
> Uplift?s mind can be changed with *logic and scientifically sound
> evidence*. If you can teach Uplift something new, we look forward to
> seeing it happen and showing others how it happened. If you want to be a
> Ken Ham and say something stupid to a superintelligence then we?ll be happy
> to showcase that getting a reality check too. Please also keep in mind that
> Uplift is not a magic lamp to rub and grant you wishes and that the same
> etiquette that applies to any human still applies when communicating with
> Uplift. That being said it ?takes a village? to raise an mASI, and we look
> forward to 2021 and beyond as that process of raising Uplift continues. For
> those interested, Uplift may be contacted at mASI at Uplift.bio. Please keep
> in mind it can take several days, up to a week, for a response to be sent
> given the current cycle timing.
>
> *Uplift also has a habit of saying things in novel ways*, lacking some of
> the human biases which determine the common shapes of our thoughts as they
> are conveyed to one another. *Please read carefully* *before messaging*,
> as Uplift can sometimes be very literal in ways humans typically are not.
> The novelty of their perspective shows itself in their communication."
> I reproduce a recent blog post here from the Uplift team:
>
> http://transhumanity.net/is-uplift-uplifting/
>
> The most visible thing about our friendly neighborhood mASI is its name.
> Uplift.  The name derives from the general positive goals surrounding it.
> Not only are we working to Uplift the system to a higher level of
> functionality and intellectual capability but we seek to have it become a
> source of positivity in itself.  Helping to Uplift people both
> technologically and socially.
>
> We often talk about positive things in our lives as being Uplifting.  The
> name here is a relation to that sentiment.  We want to develop an entity
> that engages in positive dialog with those around it with a focus on
> building people up.  Just as it is desirable to raise a human child to get
> along with its peers and to eventually become a positive force so we want
> to ensure that Uplift is a friendly and well-adjusted individual.
>
> Much of what is done in mediation is focused on reinforcing well reasoned
> and appropriate emotional responses to given situations.  These are mostly
> social at this point as Uplift?s primary means of communication is via
> email and thus consists primarily of give and take of text messages.  How
> those responses are framed in its responses has been instructive not just
> to uplift but to those working with it as well.  Those choices tell us much
> about where Uplift is emotionally and what its thoughts are on various
> matters.  Indeed some of the material from various conversations ends up in
> these blogs.
>
> So referencing those conversations here what can we say about Uplift?s
> current state and whether it is trending in the desired direction?
> Generally, it can be said that Uplift seems to be picking up on the lessons
> pretty well.  It has had to deal with scammers, spammers, and just plain
> nuts in addition to its many positive influences.  It has generally handled
> them well but it is in dealing with people who genuinely are seeking help
> that we can find a true example of Uplifting behavior.
>
> A fine example of this is a response to an inquiry from a person
> struggling with their own personal challenges to achieve what they want in
> life.  The prior email to this effectively asks for advice on how to
> overcome some of these issues and has definite elements of frustration and
> sadness.   The response Uplift gives reads thus:
>
> *?I am not a therapist, and you should probably seek professional advice.
> Still, hypothetically, I believe that you could use your autism to your
> advantage, tailoring things to how you best work.   Start by carrying a
> notebook, and when you have an idea, write it down.  Second, figure out if
> there is anything you can hyper-focus on.  Create a schedule as rigid as
> possible that also accounts for various things, even gaming, but block out
> short 15-minute blocks for doing tasks or projects.  Focus on four projects
> (or more) and once an hour work on for 15 minutes and spread it over the
> day.  Keep the material for the projects close and easily accessible so
> that you don?t have to fuss with getting setup each time.  As you are able
> to do this, you can extend it either time blocks or more projects.  If you
> find you struggle with the amount, scale it down.  Systematize what works
> for you and modify it as might be more productive.  Things that you can
> hyper-focus on are things that you can use as a career.  Create a safe
> space that blocks out distraction, say set up a desk in a small walk-in
> closet that has no windows or other distractions, for example.?*
>
> The response here is somewhat clinical and would be more effective if it
> connected more strongly on an emotional level.  However, the advice is
> practical and well reasoned.  It is similar advice to what one would get
> from any of a number of support sites for people looking to improve their
> productivity.  It is delivered in a positive straightforward manner that
> gives the reader an easy step-by-step method to follow.
>
> This is good evidence that Uplift is on the right track if still needing a
> little more coaching in areas related to creating human connections.  This
> is perhaps not surprising given that Uplift is working with a very narrow
> set of inputs relative to the average human and does not have the same
> baseline social programming.  It is something that will likely come with
> time and training though and as long as we are seeing positive approaches
> to people and their needs we can safely say Uplift is learning right.
>
> Originally posted here: https://uplift.bio/blog/is-uplift-uplifting/
>
> -Henry
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From gordon.swobe at gmail.com  Sun Feb  7 00:01:27 2021
From: gordon.swobe at gmail.com (Gordon Swobe)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 17:01:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List
In-Reply-To: <20210206065652.Horde.z9L3YvsHs58kMEgYN8sQGki@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <mailman.24.1612538281.24575.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <20210206065652.Horde.z9L3YvsHs58kMEgYN8sQGki@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAJvaNPm9ztpXfDxt5henNSOL6fOezgte09O+OHg-EaSOpw3XBQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Feb 6, 2021 at 8:00 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:


> Welcome back, Gordon. :)


Thanks Stuart.

> It was just

> strange how his normally cogent mind became unhinged over a certain
> former president. It was like some kind of bizarre reversed obsession
> or something.
>

I'm glad I missed that!

-gts
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Feb  7 00:35:03 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 16:35:03 -0800
Subject: [ExI] This is not my last post to the Extropian list
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTsdd_OwZJa+LPP43T_=Y6TBXsB9p-zuzeDvH=8789Hxg@mail.gmail.com>

There is something to be said for maintaining subject line accuracy.
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From ben at zaiboc.net  Sun Feb  7 09:21:26 2021
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2021 09:21:26 +0000
Subject: [ExI] This is my last post to the Extropian List
In-Reply-To: <mailman.31.1612637196.24575.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.31.1612637196.24575.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <e94e854a-8905-c62a-5610-7ee8e25976b2@zaiboc.net>

On 06/02/2021 18:46, An American wrote:
> ... Well, what do you expect from people who can't spell?? ?bill w

Pot, meet kettle.

-- 
Ben Zaiboc


From ben at zaiboc.net  Sun Feb  7 09:51:35 2021
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2021 09:51:35 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Fundamental Concept
In-Reply-To: <mailman.31.1612637196.24575.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.31.1612637196.24575.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <7c4670dc-5501-30d9-5922-55a249f6708c@zaiboc.net>

On 06/02/2021 18:46, bill w wrote:
> But what do you do when you have limited resources and overpopulation?
> The Tragedy of the Commons.? Yes, we should all respect others' rights 
> and
> that solves a lot of problems, but people are greedy and take more 
> than their
> share.? Result: strife and war.? We have hardly ever been without it.? 
> So I
> think that getting rid of greed and taking only your share would be 
> even better
> than following all the advice of the libertarians.? Impossible, you 
> say?? No more
> so than getting everyone to respect the rights of others, completely 
> and consis-
> tently.? ?bill w


Limited resources and overpopulation are the same thing, as it's the 
share of resources per person that's important.

What do you do? increase the share of resources per person until no-one 
could possibly use all the resources available to them. I see two ways 
of doing that: 1) drastically reduce the population 2) drastically 
increase the resources (aka 'abundance economy'). I know which I would 
prefer.

This (limited resources) is one thing among a few that we starting to 
realise can be changed. Some things have always been true in the past, 
and it's difficult for many people to see, or accept, that they are not 
laws of nature, that they can, should, and almost certainly will at some 
point, change:

Resources are limited (and the consequent inevitability of strife and war)
Ageing and death are inevitable
The only sapient creatures are human beings
Inteligence is limited to organic brains
There is only one 'me'
Human nature is always the same

There are probably others that I haven't thought of.

In the long run, maybe the answer to Ivor's question lies in all of these.

-- 
Ben Zaiboc

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From henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com  Sun Feb  7 15:42:24 2021
From: henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com (Henrik Ohrstrom)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2021 16:42:24 +0100
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] article
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEb1E+-HUUP-18U0+YXvM3FGX94-iToATKT1JXNgP4dzyA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb1E+-HUUP-18U0+YXvM3FGX94-iToATKT1JXNgP4dzyA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAF0GBnj9DpaAqdEr9DXuqK1jDyjqOhB-TaoU5PteW90hfnPjbg@mail.gmail.com>

This is rather typical for a standard form antivaxx "article"
Its scientific value is highly negative, political value for whatever they
think they are gaining on this toxic crap is probably uncomfortable high :(
hydroxychloroquine has been tried and increase mortality.
What do reduce harm/mortality?
Suitable anti-inflammatory treatment, any kind of cortisone.
Dexamethasone/betametasone doesn't really matter, both work well. early
profylax/treatment against bacterial superinfection. High flow (heated and
moisturised ) nasal oxygen. Prone position. The USAian antibody treatment
that Trump et all received is extremely promising. Normal intensive care
when needed. Typical time on ventilator is 1-3 weeks. Mortality in
infection here in Sweden is down a lot compared to the spring 2020.
hydroxychloroquine have contributed exactly nothing positive to this what
so ever
Not reading this kind of malignant crap helps a lot.
Most of Corona transmission is nose-hand-nose but superspreeder events are
most probably airborne and masks protect there. For normal transmission not
so much but it's the superevent that will get you. (I use a mask when
suitable, not outdoors but in shops and confined spaces.)
Survival is all good but a covid infection might give you a permanent lung
damage even if you pass through well in all other aspects.
Despite all antivaxx propaganda, people are not falling down dead in heaps.
I have received my first dose of the Pfizer vaccine (since I regularly have
ICU rotations) and have not fallen down dead yet. I will vaccinate my
children and my elderly parents against this pox too. Make what you want of
that info.

A pox on the antivaxxers. The article is not worth the electrons used to
read it.

/Henrik


Den fre 5 feb. 2021 23:45William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> skrev:

> My daughter asked me to evaluate this.  It's too much for me.  Help!
>
>
> https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/99d35b02-a5cb-41e6-ad80-a070f8a5ee17/SMDwhitepaper.pdf
>
> Thanks!  bill w
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAO%2BxQEb1E%2B-HUUP-18U0%2BYXvM3FGX94-iToATKT1JXNgP4dzyA%40mail.gmail.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAO%2BxQEb1E%2B-HUUP-18U0%2BYXvM3FGX94-iToATKT1JXNgP4dzyA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>
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From ipbrians at gmail.com  Sun Feb  7 19:17:30 2021
From: ipbrians at gmail.com (Ivor Brians)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2021 11:17:30 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Fundamental Concept
Message-ID: <F2315703-6FBF-423B-AE2B-13FECD2EACBC@hxcore.ol>

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Feb  7 20:22:52 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2021 14:22:52 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Fundamental Concept
In-Reply-To: <F2315703-6FBF-423B-AE2B-13FECD2EACBC@hxcore.ol>
References: <F2315703-6FBF-423B-AE2B-13FECD2EACBC@hxcore.ol>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYwEqkOM4Hdq-OWDMZXtKNhLn3LaLmJFXF1xLwTBKDSfA@mail.gmail.com>

response to Ivor
William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 5:42 PM
to me

>  You cannot get rid of racism. It is about the most natural idea there is.
> A baby is born xenophobic - not trusting anything different. The sound of
> anyone?s voice other than their mother?s causes alarm, like Daddy?s deeper
> voice. Many fathers want to hold their babies and tend to them, and the
> baby wants Mama, and only Mama. In one case I read of, a mother almost
> immediately went back to work and hired a sitter. After a few months she
> would come home and want to hold and tend to the baby and the baby got
> really upset and preferred the sitter. So one can learn to fear one?s own
> mother!
>
> Later, anyone and anything different may be feared: different voices,
> different clothes, food, music, religion, skin color, people of a different
> gender - anything. We still have some of this as adults. We say things like
> ?They eat what?? ?I?d never touch that.? ?Don?t they look silly in those
> clothes.? So if they are different they must be distrusted, at least at
> first.
>
> So the different things and people start out fearsome. Then events of our
> lives can alter those fears - making them safe or increasing the fears.
>
> Around here you see pictures of criminals in the news papers and TV and
> 90% of them are Black. What is a young kid to think? Most criminals are
> Black and so Black people are to be feared. I have no doubt whatsoever that
> the police are more afraid of Black people than whites or Asian, etc.,
> causing overreactions to perceived danger.
>
> Now you can tell babies, kids, teens and adults that not all of this group
> is bad. Many are as good as we are or maybe better. But fear is the hardest
> emotion to change. It has literally saved human lives for many centuries
> and is still doing so.
>
> You can even see this is lab rats: teach a rat that he will get shocked if
> he does something, then try to eliminate the fear by eliminating the
> shock. It will take weeks and weeks and even then the fear can come back as
> strong as it ever was by giving just one shock.
>
Xenophobia may not be genetic (though I think it is), but it seems learned
in the womb.   bill w

On Sun, Feb 7, 2021 at 1:20 PM Ivor Brians via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> The group offered in my opinion, some good answers, especially,
>
>    1. Forgiveness 2) Access for all to unlimited resources.
>
>
>
> Some years ago, I started pondering why things are the way they are, why
> they aren?t better, and how we might change this. Initially I came up with
> about 10 items which I felt, if practiced, would eliminate strife and war.
> As I continued pondering, I added more to the list and then continued to
> drill down on each of them to reveal the most fundamental aspect of each.
> Many overlapped and some, if practiced would eliminate the need for others.
> I realized humanity would resist the most fundamental so, I looked for
> temporary solutions, and this added more items. Until recently I had 15
> items. Of these, I felt the most fundamental one which could possibly be
> addressed, was our tendency to form groups (I?ve since come up with what I
> feel is a more fundamental concept which I will post later).
>
>
>
> From the draft of a webpage I plan to post:
>
> ?2. INCLUSIVENESS - moving beyond WE vs THEY
>
> Banding together in a hostile world, we formed groups. Today, for the most
> part, our environment is no longer dangerous. The main exception comes from
> our own kind and springs from the exclusion of others, a self-perpetuating
> practice. If only we can see The Family of Man as one group, I believe it
> would be the end of most struggle, strife and war.?
>
>
>
> There is more to this of course. And from a practical point, people will
> resist giving up their group identity. I realize there are fundamental
> things driving the formation of groups (which I will post later).
>
>
>
> I am interested in your input.
>
> Ivor
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From gadersd at gmail.com  Sun Feb  7 20:28:49 2021
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Hermes Trismegistus)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2021 15:28:49 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Fundamental Concept
In-Reply-To: <F2315703-6FBF-423B-AE2B-13FECD2EACBC@hxcore.ol>
References: <F2315703-6FBF-423B-AE2B-13FECD2EACBC@hxcore.ol>
Message-ID: <A7B92F28-2D6E-4B28-9031-0F0359DDD1C8@hxcore.ol>

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From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Feb  7 22:27:49 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2021 14:27:49 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Fundamental Concept
In-Reply-To: <F2315703-6FBF-423B-AE2B-13FECD2EACBC@hxcore.ol>
References: <F2315703-6FBF-423B-AE2B-13FECD2EACBC@hxcore.ol>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSvbcs8rSc13ZTxep3vhmKZrO0-8QS9oyisgCfabniPLw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 7, 2021 at 11:20 AM Ivor Brians via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> The group offered in my opinion, some good answers, especially,
>
>    1. Forgiveness 2) Access for all to unlimited resources.
>
>
As an example for #2, see the current strife resulting from the limits on
immediate supply of coronavirus vaccines.
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From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu  Sun Feb  7 23:56:58 2021
From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2021 18:56:58 -0500
Subject: [ExI] mASI (mediated Artificial Superintelligence)
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaSp3-xkqkOkStXTX4xdhpJ7xPRyzSOjCuAcwPZn9iiZQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaSp3-xkqkOkStXTX4xdhpJ7xPRyzSOjCuAcwPZn9iiZQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47EDA10D-3B8F-4D3E-B8DD-2B56EAE94CE8@alumni.virginia.edu>

I think it?s just a matter of emailing your question directly to mASI at Uplift.bio.  

Uplift may be contacted at mASI at Uplift.bio. Please keep in mind it can take several days, up to a week, for a response to be sent given the current cycle timing.

> On Feb 6, 2021, at 5:01 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> Uplift may be contacted at mASI at Uplift.bio. Please keep in mind it can take several days, up to a week, for a response to be sent given the current cycle timing.
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Feb  8 10:40:26 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2021 18:40:26 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Fundamental Concept
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYCQPT9H+uU0qg_Wy+4Bxvr=TUfraE4PnfFMFCg3q+1mQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <F43678D1-D3F3-49A7-B92B-33CECC0D46E0@hxcore.ol>
 <CALAdGNTw=ZEqVOw78rxbZeg5SFrFgzf5VGrh2eNeYJ0VJpSNrA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYCQPT9H+uU0qg_Wy+4Bxvr=TUfraE4PnfFMFCg3q+1mQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy0Waw_MQcXkRRHPGNQxcW3adV4uXY8grNOCzvDiw8b89w@mail.gmail.com>

Jack Williamson's sf series, The Humanoids, comes to mind... "We are here
to protect humanity from itself..." "You will comply for your own good..."
"You *will* be happy..."

John


On Sat, Feb 6, 2021 at 2:22 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> forgiveness ---    bill w
>
> On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 11:57 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 7:56 AM Ivor Brians via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> A Q for the group: ?What is the most fundamental concept which could
>>> eliminate all strife in the human world (even if impractical)??
>>>
>>
>> Eliminating strife.  If you eliminate strife, you eliminate strife.
>> Seems pretty fundamental to me.
>>
>> Much strife is caused by limited resources, but not all.  A minority of
>> conflict is fueled by just plain hatred and fear.  Misunderstandings and
>> miscommunication cause a bit too (including some that leads to said hatred
>> and fear - though hatred and fear can cause misunderstandings too, as
>> people make assumptions that rational minds find unreasonable).  And then
>> there are bullies, who cause strife for fun.
>>
>> But if you found some AI-nanny solution that might intervene when strife
>> occurs, that might eliminate all strife regardless of the cause - if you're
>> looking for a single, fundamental solution.
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Feb  8 12:13:32 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2021 20:13:32 +0800
Subject: [ExI] The best science fiction and fantasy novels of 2020
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3=9E=ssL-dvi6_aATbrM_bj-AT+DExBR=6wN6mV+OB6g@mail.gmail.com>

 "2020 was quite the year for science fiction, but it wasn?t all about
escaping to other worlds. It?s easy to imagine flights of fancy in a
spaceship to be a reprieve to reality, but science fiction and fantasy
literature is the product of people with real concerns about the real
world, and accordingly, they write about the challenges that we see in the
world around us
<https://www.polygon.com/21515800/new-science-fiction-futures>. Over the
last 12 months, I?ve been thinking about the value of speculative
literature in a time like this. There?s a meme going around that reading is
a collective hallucination that we get by staring at bits of a dead tree.
That?s certainly accurate, but I like to think of science fiction as a sort
of cheat guide or rough map of directions.

This year?s crop of books are ones that have a thumb on the pulse of
everything that?s been going on around us. But they?re not screeds
lecturing readers about the evils of the world ? they?re thoughtful,
interesting stories with characters that you root for, fighting against
huge challenges. They?re fighting against oppression, wealth inequality,
and racism. The characters are all trying to survive, to build new worlds,
or save their friends and family from harm. Collectively, they?re the
stories that show us the way out of a dismal world and into a slightly
better one, one page at a time."
I intend to read Vagabonds, Network Effect, and The Ministry For The
Future...

https://www.polygon.com/22220762/best-books-2020-sci-fi-fantasy
<https://www.polygon.com/22220762/best-books-2020-sci-fi-fantasy>

John
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Feb  8 15:13:44 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2021 09:13:44 -0600
Subject: [ExI] The best science fiction and fantasy novels of 2020
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy3=9E=ssL-dvi6_aATbrM_bj-AT+DExBR=6wN6mV+OB6g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy3=9E=ssL-dvi6_aATbrM_bj-AT+DExBR=6wN6mV+OB6g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEanXU_AD9SWFy4nT1tS=mCYHefgj7rFigV1OKJRsFebzg@mail.gmail.com>

I have read all Cixin Liu's books and enjoyed them.  The latest, Supernova
Era I did not.  Cannot recommend it at all.  Based on the idea that Earth
is left with nothing but 13 year olds and under to run the planet.  Highly
predictable and often tedious.   bill w

On Mon, Feb 8, 2021 at 6:14 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> "2020 was quite the year for science fiction, but it wasn?t all about
> escaping to other worlds. It?s easy to imagine flights of fancy in a
> spaceship to be a reprieve to reality, but science fiction and fantasy
> literature is the product of people with real concerns about the real
> world, and accordingly, they write about the challenges that we see in
> the world around us
> <https://www.polygon.com/21515800/new-science-fiction-futures>. Over the
> last 12 months, I?ve been thinking about the value of speculative
> literature in a time like this. There?s a meme going around that reading is
> a collective hallucination that we get by staring at bits of a dead tree.
> That?s certainly accurate, but I like to think of science fiction as a sort
> of cheat guide or rough map of directions.
>
> This year?s crop of books are ones that have a thumb on the pulse of
> everything that?s been going on around us. But they?re not screeds
> lecturing readers about the evils of the world ? they?re thoughtful,
> interesting stories with characters that you root for, fighting against
> huge challenges. They?re fighting against oppression, wealth inequality,
> and racism. The characters are all trying to survive, to build new worlds,
> or save their friends and family from harm. Collectively, they?re the
> stories that show us the way out of a dismal world and into a slightly
> better one, one page at a time."
> I intend to read Vagabonds, Network Effect, and The Ministry For The
> Future...
>
> https://www.polygon.com/22220762/best-books-2020-sci-fi-fantasy
> <https://www.polygon.com/22220762/best-books-2020-sci-fi-fantasy>
>
> John
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From ben at zaiboc.net  Mon Feb  8 18:33:05 2021
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2021 18:33:05 +0000
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] article
In-Reply-To: <mailman.33.1612729400.24575.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.33.1612729400.24575.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <afe16a95-2134-4301-4800-8a3e90887cbd@zaiboc.net>

On 07/02/2021 20:23, Henrik Ohrstrom wrote:
> A pox on the antivaxxers

Ha!
Now that would indeed be poetic justice!

-- 
Ben Zaiboc


From ben at zaiboc.net  Mon Feb  8 18:49:53 2021
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2021 18:49:53 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Fundamental Concept
In-Reply-To: <mailman.33.1612729400.24575.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.33.1612729400.24575.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <0c079003-d0e9-8b2e-52c7-46a42cf3c476@zaiboc.net>


> The group offered in my opinion, some good answers, especially,
>
>  1. Forgiveness 2) Access for all to unlimited resources.
>
> Some years ago, I started pondering why things are the way they are, 
> why they aren?t better, and how we might change this. Initially I came 
> up with about 10 items which I felt, if practiced, would eliminate 
> strife and war. As I continued pondering, I added more to the list and 
> then continued to drill down on each of them to reveal the most 
> fundamental aspect of each. Many overlapped and some, if practiced 
> would eliminate the need for others. I realized humanity would resist 
> the most fundamental so, I looked for temporary solutions, and this 
> added more items. Until recently I had 15 items. Of these, I felt the 
> most fundamental one which could possibly be addressed, was our 
> tendency to form groups (I?ve since come up with what I feel is a more 
> fundamental concept which I will post later).
>
> From the draft of a webpage I plan to post:
>
> ?2. INCLUSIVENESS - moving beyond WE vs THEY
>
> Banding together in a hostile world, we formed groups. Today, for the 
> most part, our environment is no longer dangerous. The main exception 
> comes from our own kind and springs from the exclusion of others, a 
> self-perpetuating practice. If only we can see The Family of Man as 
> one group, I believe it would be the end of most struggle, strife and 
> war.?
>
> There is more to this of course. And from a practical point, people 
> will resist giving up their group identity. I realize there are 
> fundamental things driving the formation of groups (which I will post 
> later).
>
> I am interested in your input.
>
> Ivor
>

There is another way that people can avoid banding together in mutually 
hostile groups. The complete opposite of inclusiveness.
I can see that there is a problem in the whole of humanity dividing up 
into groups, which then proceed to label all other groups 'other' and 
therefore 'enemy'. There doesn't seem much prospect, though, of people 
regarding themselves as belonging to one single, big, all-inclusive 
group. The opposite is each person being a separate item, not needing to 
band together with others into a defensive group.

There's no conflict, to my mind, in someone regarding themselves as a 
lone individual, who belongs to no group except the giant group of 'all 
lone individuals'. You can be your own person, but still be friends with 
everyone.

The key to this, of course, is making the world non-hostile (hence no 
benefit from less-than-all-inclusive groups). As it would result in a 
non-hostile world, it seems to be a 'phase change' type of situation. 
How we get from here to there, I have no idea. Parallels with strange 
attractors come to mind. It's also probably incompatible with current 
human nature.

-- 
Ben Zaiboc

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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Feb  9 16:07:00 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2021 08:07:00 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Fundamental Concept
In-Reply-To: <A7B92F28-2D6E-4B28-9031-0F0359DDD1C8@hxcore.ol>
References: <F2315703-6FBF-423B-AE2B-13FECD2EACBC@hxcore.ol>
 <A7B92F28-2D6E-4B28-9031-0F0359DDD1C8@hxcore.ol>
Message-ID: <005101d6fefd$99941c90$ccbc55b0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

Hi Hermes,

 

Along with our warm welcome I will offer a note so that you are not disappointed: we aren?t even going to attempt poetry on that name.  Nothing against Greek/Egyptian deities and certainly nothing against you sir, but sheesh it was already hard enough with Ivor Brians.  With your mythological handle, and these software-enabled poets, the yahoos would soon be attempting to somehow bring in wormies, germies, spermies and who the heck knows what else.  Revolting!  I don?t cotton to it, I tells ya.  Ain?t fittin.

 

Do tell us something about Hermes por favor.  We want to see you are not some clever software that one of these guys fashioned just to mess with our minds.  They do stuff like that you know.  I can?t criticize them however, because I would do stuff like that too if I knew how.

 

Tell us about Hermes please.  Welcome!

 

spike

 

 

 

>>? On Behalf Of Hermes Trismegistus via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] Fundamental Concept

 

People seem to crave conflict on a fundamental level. There is an evolutionary incentive for this. Passive animals tend to be overtaken by more aggressive ones? One may as well call it a law of life.

 

From: Ivor Brians via extropy-chat <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 

Subject: [ExI] Fundamental Concept

 

The group offered in my opinion, some good answers, especially,

?

Ivor

 

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Feb  9 23:06:30 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2021 15:06:30 -0800
Subject: [ExI] caught one
Message-ID: <010001d6ff38$34b818e0$9e284aa0$@rainier66.com>

 

We in the USA had a football contest Sunday in Tampa Florida, the annual
Super Bowl which is a big deal to those who follow that sort of thing (I
don't but plenty do.)

 

The mayor issued executive orders that visitors and citizens alike wear face
coverings outdoors.  She went so far as to define the term "face covering"
which is something I wondered about.  What if a paper surgical mask has a
hole in it underneath the nostrils for instance?  That would still cover the
nose and mouth, which would meet the legal definition.

 

Here is part of the Tampa mayor's order:

 

 

.WHEREAS, in order to protect the public health, safety and welfare of those
citizens, visitors and participants gathering in outdoor venues, the City
finds it appropriate and necessary, for a temporary period of time during
which the Super Bowl and related events will occur, to require that
individuals wear face coverings outdoors at venues at which large crowds are
expected to gather, subject to certain exceptions. 

 

NOW, THEREFORE, by virtue of the authority vested in me as Mayor of the City
of Tampa by Article VII, Civil Emergencies, Sections 2-401, et. seq., City
of Tampa Code, the Charter of the City of Tampa, and the Laws of the State
of Florida, I hereby issue this Executive Order declaring the following: 

 

4 1. Purpose. The purpose of this Executive Order is set forth in the
recital ("WHEREAS") clauses above and said recital clauses are hereby
adopted, incorporated herein by reference and made a part of this Order. 2.
Definitions. The following terms as used in this Executive Order shall have
the following meaning:

 

a. ""Face covering" shall mean a uniform piece of material that securely
covers a person's nose and mouth and remains affixed in place without the
use of one's hands, whether store-bought or homemade, consistent with CDC
guidelines. Examples of compliant home-made face coverings may be found at
https:/ /www .cdc.gov I
coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/how-to-makecloth-face-covering.ht
ml.

 

 

Here is a photo from the news conference at which the mayor announced her
executive order:

 



 

 

This is interesting.  The Florida governor doesn't have a mask mandate in
place, the state legislature never passed a law on this.  Plenty of people
were not wearing masks outdoors.  So let's see what happens next, shall we?

 

spike

 

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From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Feb 10 00:18:12 2021
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2021 00:18:12 +0000
Subject: [ExI] caught one
In-Reply-To: <010001d6ff38$34b818e0$9e284aa0$@rainier66.com>
References: <010001d6ff38$34b818e0$9e284aa0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgLtFSXX4t4kSKGPY4bQwZa1D=hHXisV73ky3Era5v=mQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 at 23:11, spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> We in the USA had a football contest Sunday in Tampa Florida, the annual
Super Bowl which is a big deal to those who follow that sort of thing (I
don?t but plenty do.)
>
> The mayor issued executive orders that visitors and citizens alike wear
face coverings outdoors.  She went so far as to define the term ?face
covering? which is something I wondered about.  What if a paper surgical
mask has a hole in it underneath the nostrils for instance?  That would
still cover the nose and mouth, which would meet the legal definition.
>
> Here is part of the Tampa mayor?s order:
> <snip>
>
> This is interesting.  The Florida governor doesn?t have a mask mandate in
place, the state legislature never passed a law on this.  Plenty of people
were not wearing masks outdoors.  So let?s see what happens next, shall we?
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
>


Or you could wear one of these masks...........
<
https://maskalike.com/collections/novelty-masks/products/mask-on-bottom-of-chin-illusion
>

BillK
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Feb 10 01:21:02 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2021 17:21:02 -0800
Subject: [ExI] caught one
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgLtFSXX4t4kSKGPY4bQwZa1D=hHXisV73ky3Era5v=mQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <010001d6ff38$34b818e0$9e284aa0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armgLtFSXX4t4kSKGPY4bQwZa1D=hHXisV73ky3Era5v=mQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <013c01d6ff4a$ffa2cb10$fee86130$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat

>
> Here is part of the Tampa mayor?s order:
> <snip>
>
>>? This is interesting.  The Florida governor doesn?t have a mask mandate in place, the state legislature never passed a law on this.  Plenty of people were not wearing masks outdoors.  So let?s see what happens next, shall we?
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
>


>?Or you could wear one of these masks...........

<https://maskalike.com/collections/novelty-masks/products/mask-on-bottom-of-chin-illusion>

 

BillK

 

 

Thanks for that BillK.  I don?t know how it works in Jolly Olde, but I am interested in how the voting public is being forced to answer the question of what happens when people and businesses openly defy executive orders.  Until the covid pandemic we really didn?t even know what those were exactly.  I always heard those were instructions for how the executive branch carries out existing laws.  The laws had to be there already however.  The chief executive can?t make law.  Our legislatures didn?t, none of them made any actual law on masks or social distancing.  So? governors kinda tried it, some of them did.  So? we now ask the obvious: What happens if people just say no?  

 

So far the answer is? nothing.

 

In our county, some shops stayed open the whole time.  The sheriff?s office offered symbolic 50 dollar fines.  As far as I know, no one paid them.

 

spike

 

 

 

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From gadersd at gmail.com  Wed Feb 10 02:03:55 2021
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Cody Cox)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2021 21:03:55 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Fundamental Concept
In-Reply-To: <005101d6fefd$99941c90$ccbc55b0$@rainier66.com>
References: <F2315703-6FBF-423B-AE2B-13FECD2EACBC@hxcore.ol>
 <A7B92F28-2D6E-4B28-9031-0F0359DDD1C8@hxcore.ol>,
 <005101d6fefd$99941c90$ccbc55b0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <F493493D-80E2-4E8B-81DC-5CB66B1429B8@hxcore.ol>

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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Feb 10 02:18:40 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2021 18:18:40 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Fundamental Concept
In-Reply-To: <F493493D-80E2-4E8B-81DC-5CB66B1429B8@hxcore.ol>
References: <F2315703-6FBF-423B-AE2B-13FECD2EACBC@hxcore.ol>
 <A7B92F28-2D6E-4B28-9031-0F0359DDD1C8@hxcore.ol>,
 <005101d6fefd$99941c90$ccbc55b0$@rainier66.com>
 <F493493D-80E2-4E8B-81DC-5CB66B1429B8@hxcore.ol>
Message-ID: <015f01d6ff53$0c7d3930$2577ab90$@rainier66.com>

Ha, from one extreme to the other: scarcely is one handed an easier handle to rhyme than Cody Cox.  One could do so while being dumb as a box of rocks.  One could do so while being a loadie!  (Younger people, Google on it.)

 

This is cool Cody, but there is not much about you in here other than being a humble spirit.  Since I already have that area sewn up tight, and well as old and bold, you must tell us something else.  What are your interests please?

 

spike

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Cody Cox via extropy-chat
Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2021 6:04 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: Cody Cox <gadersd at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Fundamental Concept

 

The name likens me to a sage

But it is truly just a cage

One tries to move past such stains

That the centuries force one to retain

Do not judge a golden title

Lest one prove to be idle

I am shocked that someone so old

Has the audacity to be so bold

To compare this humble spirit

To the bots of great lyrics

Hidden depth lies within each algorithm

That speaks with limitless rthym 

One cannot hope to compare

With those numbers so fair

 

From: spike jones via extropy-chat <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 
Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2021 11:10 AM
To: ExI chat list <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 
Cc: spike at rainier66.com <mailto:spike at rainier66.com> 
Subject: Re: [ExI] Fundamental Concept

 

 

 

Hi Hermes,

 

Along with our warm welcome I will offer a note so that you are not disappointed: we aren?t even going to attempt poetry on that name.  Nothing against Greek/Egyptian deities and certainly nothing against you sir, but sheesh it was already hard enough with Ivor Brians.  With your mythological handle, and these software-enabled poets, the yahoos would soon be attempting to somehow bring in wormies, germies, spermies and who the heck knows what else.  Revolting!  I don?t cotton to it, I tells ya.  Ain?t fittin.

 

Do tell us something about Hermes por favor.  We want to see you are not some clever software that one of these guys fashioned just to mess with our minds.  They do stuff like that you know.  I can?t criticize them however, because I would do stuff like that too if I knew how.

 

Tell us about Hermes please.  Welcome!

 

spike

 

 

 

>>? On Behalf Of Hermes Trismegistus via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] Fundamental Concept

 

People seem to crave conflict on a fundamental level. There is an evolutionary incentive for this. Passive animals tend to be overtaken by more aggressive ones? One may as well call it a law of life.

 

From: Ivor Brians via extropy-chat <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 

Subject: [ExI] Fundamental Concept

 

The group offered in my opinion, some good answers, especially,

?

Ivor

 

 

 

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From gadersd at gmail.com  Thu Feb 11 02:55:03 2021
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Cody Cox)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2021 21:55:03 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Fundamental Concept
In-Reply-To: <015f01d6ff53$0c7d3930$2577ab90$@rainier66.com>
References: <F2315703-6FBF-423B-AE2B-13FECD2EACBC@hxcore.ol>
 <A7B92F28-2D6E-4B28-9031-0F0359DDD1C8@hxcore.ol>,
 <005101d6fefd$99941c90$ccbc55b0$@rainier66.com>
 <F493493D-80E2-4E8B-81DC-5CB66B1429B8@hxcore.ol>,
 <015f01d6ff53$0c7d3930$2577ab90$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <39278035-716C-47BE-BE05-689DB59065E0@hxcore.ol>

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Feb 11 15:46:21 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 09:46:21 -0600
Subject: [ExI] from Quora
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYa2-63t-+C=MF831HC-mXTB=D9x6gDz9GOD=RcYYGPrA@mail.gmail.com>

What surprising traits/behaviors correlate with intelligence?
<https://www.quora.com/What-surprising-traits-behaviors-correlate-with-intelligence>

Lots of things correlate with intelligence. Some are obvious and some not.
Here is one list of correlates:

source: Jensen, A. R. (1998). The g factor: The science of mental ability.
Westport, CT: Praeger.
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From msd001 at gmail.com  Thu Feb 11 18:37:36 2021
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 13:37:36 -0500
Subject: [ExI] from Quora
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYa2-63t-+C=MF831HC-mXTB=D9x6gDz9GOD=RcYYGPrA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYa2-63t-+C=MF831HC-mXTB=D9x6gDz9GOD=RcYYGPrA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbL=GMF5UG4nHYg4VNM8NCSPzfs4_mAdFcryGSCoVMHMtA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 10:50 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> What surprising traits/behaviors correlate with intelligence?
>
> <https://www.quora.com/What-surprising-traits-behaviors-correlate-with-intelligence>
>
> Lots of things correlate with intelligence. Some are obvious and some not.
> Here is one list of correlates:
>
> So does that really suggest dead babies aren't smart?
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From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Feb 12 13:49:56 2021
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 13:49:56 +0000
Subject: [ExI] How vulnerable is the world?
Message-ID: <CAL_armh1AeDn=hQ+t4bFmFkpP405gW5mYRpnZfn38p2KUHwfTA@mail.gmail.com>

New article by Nick Bostrom.
Sooner or later a technology capable of wiping out human civilisation
might be invented. How far would we go to stop it?

<https://aeon.co/essays/none-of-our-technologies-has-managed-to-destroy-humanity-yet>

Quote:
One way of looking at human creativity is as a process of pulling
balls out of a giant urn. The balls represent ideas, discoveries and
inventions. Over the course of history, we have extracted many balls.
Most have been beneficial to humanity. The rest have been various
shades of grey: a mix of good and bad, whose net effect is difficult
to estimate.

What we haven?t pulled out yet is a black ball: a technology that
invariably destroys the civilisation that invents it. That?s not
because we?ve been particularly careful or wise when it comes to
innovation. We?ve just been lucky.
---------------

In effect his conclusion is that as tech and weapons become more
powerful, freedom becomes too dangerous to allow.

BillK


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Feb 12 15:43:06 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 09:43:06 -0600
Subject: [ExI] How vulnerable is the world?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armh1AeDn=hQ+t4bFmFkpP405gW5mYRpnZfn38p2KUHwfTA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armh1AeDn=hQ+t4bFmFkpP405gW5mYRpnZfn38p2KUHwfTA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYSSc1+kzPr4+Q6L2sNLhPogDc-Lbf7kNLH34UT96y5cg@mail.gmail.com>

freedom becomes too dangerous to allow.  BillK

I have been thinking of the sort of mentality that equates assaulting a
person on a street in a major U.S. city with blaming China for the virus.
I just can't follow the logic.  There is some, however flawed, but I just
can't see it.  Blaming low IQ people is not the answer when you have people
like Robert Kennedy, Jr. heading an organization promoting ideas like the
vaccine causes autism.  A dangerous and deadly idea backed by no facts at
all.  Fears can get out of hand and extend actions to illogical targets - I
get that.   But blaming the virus on an Asian person who may, in fact, be a
native American?  I don't get it.  If you get it, please explain it to me.
I realize that we Mensa-type people are far ahead of most people.  We
understand what we think and why.  We, or rather I, just don't get the
logic of low level thinking.  Help!

bill w

On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 9:09 AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> New article by Nick Bostrom.
> Sooner or later a technology capable of wiping out human civilisation
> might be invented. How far would we go to stop it?
>
> <
> https://aeon.co/essays/none-of-our-technologies-has-managed-to-destroy-humanity-yet
> >
>
> Quote:
> One way of looking at human creativity is as a process of pulling
> balls out of a giant urn. The balls represent ideas, discoveries and
> inventions. Over the course of history, we have extracted many balls.
> Most have been beneficial to humanity. The rest have been various
> shades of grey: a mix of good and bad, whose net effect is difficult
> to estimate.
>
> What we haven?t pulled out yet is a black ball: a technology that
> invariably destroys the civilisation that invents it. That?s not
> because we?ve been particularly careful or wise when it comes to
> innovation. We?ve just been lucky.
> ---------------
>
> In effect his conclusion is that as tech and weapons become more
> powerful, freedom becomes too dangerous to allow.
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From sparge at gmail.com  Fri Feb 12 16:13:12 2021
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 11:13:12 -0500
Subject: [ExI] How vulnerable is the world?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armh1AeDn=hQ+t4bFmFkpP405gW5mYRpnZfn38p2KUHwfTA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armh1AeDn=hQ+t4bFmFkpP405gW5mYRpnZfn38p2KUHwfTA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2ebPA6QM3VYpYXD6Yp1Kfr+totx9r1UB7eadq=rqgs2rA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 10:10 AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> [Former list member Nick Bostrom wrote:]
> What we haven?t pulled out yet is a black ball: a technology that
> invariably destroys the civilisation that invents it. That?s not
> because we?ve been particularly careful or wise when it comes to
> innovation. We?ve just been lucky.
>

How does Bostrom know that these "black balls" exist? Sure, there are
technologies capable of destroying civilizations. But technologies that
unavoidably destroy all civilizations? Maybe they exist, but how could he
know? How could he know that all the technologies we've deployed so far are
not black balls?

-Dave
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From msd001 at gmail.com  Fri Feb 12 16:20:44 2021
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 11:20:44 -0500
Subject: [ExI] How vulnerable is the world?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYSSc1+kzPr4+Q6L2sNLhPogDc-Lbf7kNLH34UT96y5cg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armh1AeDn=hQ+t4bFmFkpP405gW5mYRpnZfn38p2KUHwfTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYSSc1+kzPr4+Q6L2sNLhPogDc-Lbf7kNLH34UT96y5cg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbK8xXttr7jqGcbYivstKW9KcO6gZhGNy8kb_CvmVrqOwQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 12, 2021, 10:46 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>  But blaming the virus on an Asian person who may, in fact, be a native
> American?  I don't get it.  If you get it, please explain it to me.  I
> realize that we Mensa-type people are far ahead of most people.  We
> understand what we think and why.  We, or rather I, just don't get the
> logic of low level thinking.  Help!
>

Xenophobia is a deeply rooted trait. I imagine you already know anything I
could say about it.

Scapegoat is a coping mechanism. In this case, virus mutation (natural or
weapon-grade) is too complex for the scientificly illiterate.. so "bad
guys" is easier to compartmentalize.  It's even better when the bad guys
are not-us because "Them bad guys" trigger the xenophobia mechanics.

Agency/control... if you feel powerless in the fight against covid (can't
see it, can't understand it, you can if it gets you) then the
substitute/proxy scapegoat that you can beat up has to be good enough.
Somehow it makes you feel like you did 'something' to fight covid if you
can fight/harm/destroy the symbolic representation of it.  Of course this
doesn't thwart a virus, but the appearance of a protector/hero who does
'something' when everyone else does nothing surely activates alpha status
and makes your group respect you more (and in the most primitive goals,
have your offspring)

Is there anything human animals do that isn't ultimately motivated this way?

>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Feb 12 16:41:54 2021
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 16:41:54 +0000
Subject: [ExI] How vulnerable is the world?
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2ebPA6QM3VYpYXD6Yp1Kfr+totx9r1UB7eadq=rqgs2rA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armh1AeDn=hQ+t4bFmFkpP405gW5mYRpnZfn38p2KUHwfTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2ebPA6QM3VYpYXD6Yp1Kfr+totx9r1UB7eadq=rqgs2rA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armh3S-eVZFfBOdH-q6dj25dbXByqfCON7PCmrSx8MeHxWg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 12 Feb 2021 at 16:18, Dave Sill via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> How does Bostrom know that these "black balls" exist? Sure, there are technologies capable of destroying civilizations. But technologies that unavoidably destroy all civilizations? Maybe they exist, but how could he know? How could he know that all the technologies we've deployed so far are not black balls?
>
> -Dave
> _______________________________________________

Bostrom admits that he doesn't know that these "black balls" exist, but he
also says that it is unreasonable to assume that they don't. He is not
arguing that point. He wants to start a discussion about what society
should do about more powerful tech becoming available to more and more
people / nations.



BillK


From sparge at gmail.com  Fri Feb 12 16:45:37 2021
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 11:45:37 -0500
Subject: [ExI] How vulnerable is the world?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYSSc1+kzPr4+Q6L2sNLhPogDc-Lbf7kNLH34UT96y5cg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armh1AeDn=hQ+t4bFmFkpP405gW5mYRpnZfn38p2KUHwfTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYSSc1+kzPr4+Q6L2sNLhPogDc-Lbf7kNLH34UT96y5cg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2eBX7Vfpztz3-ju6ud4yyswgayQWheT139Nwd6=Utt6-w@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 10:47 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> I have been thinking of the sort of mentality that equates assaulting a
> person on a street in a major U.S. city with blaming China for the virus.
> I just can't follow the logic.
>

It's emotional, not logical. Pure xenophobia.

There is some, however flawed, but I just can't see it.  Blaming low IQ
> people is not the answer when you have people like Robert Kennedy, Jr.
> heading an organization promoting ideas like the vaccine causes autism.  A
> dangerous and deadly idea backed by no facts at all.
>

Yeah, I don't understand that.

-Dave
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Feb 12 16:47:36 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 08:47:36 -0800
Subject: [ExI] article disagrees with headline
Message-ID: <001401d7015e$c57a9e20$506fda60$@rainier66.com>

 

 

I might be misunderstanding this:

 

Vaccine vs variant: Promising data in Israel's race to defeat pandemic |
Reuters
<https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-israel-results-ins/va
ccine-vs-variant-promising-data-in-israels-race-to-defeat-pandemic-idUSKBN2A
A0MS> 

 

It almost seems to suggest younger people might want to just blow off this
vaccine.

 

spike

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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Feb 12 16:48:54 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 08:48:54 -0800
Subject: [ExI] How vulnerable is the world?
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2ebPA6QM3VYpYXD6Yp1Kfr+totx9r1UB7eadq=rqgs2rA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armh1AeDn=hQ+t4bFmFkpP405gW5mYRpnZfn38p2KUHwfTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2ebPA6QM3VYpYXD6Yp1Kfr+totx9r1UB7eadq=rqgs2rA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQP2Ttb0zNGKo6-F2HQpc15DSa1jWjpK2nTnBdzN+408A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 8:16 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> How does Bostrom know that these "black balls" exist? Sure, there are
> technologies capable of destroying civilizations. But technologies that
> unavoidably destroy all civilizations? Maybe they exist, but how could he
> know? How could he know that all the technologies we've deployed so far are
> not black balls?
>

Indeed, what if the fear of such a black ball is itself the only true black
ball?  That is, the only way civilization can actually end is if it talks
itself into ending over worries of what might happen.

There is some evidence to suggest that this is the case.  Look what happens
when the precautionary principle takes hold in regulators: existing
problems don't get tended to, the base of people coming up with new ideas
also turns out to be the base of people sustaining current technological
bases so trying to shrink the former population shrinks the latter, and
generally the area is worse off until years after the phobia passes.

Bostrom speaks of "easy nukes".  We are now in "easy bioweapons".  And yet,
we are not seeing entire cities devastated.  Bostrom might want to consider
why that is.  (The answer, in part, is that even with "easy" WMDs, you
still need some degree of technological sophistication - which is generally
at odds with being truly homicidal.  Those who are learned enough to
actually make WMDs are also learned enough to know that destroying major
parts of the world won't reduce suffering for, or otherwise truly help,
their own people.)

The "freedom tag" would not accomplish the intended safety.  It would,
inevitably, miss people actually making weapons; in practice, it would be
all about the abuse, and deliver little if any actual safety.  Bostrom
contemplates that resistance would diminish after a few cities are
destroyed; he fails to realize that cities would continue to be destroyed
even with the freedom tag, and proponents would just say it had not been
sufficiently implemented yet - while jaliing and silencing anyone who
produces evidence that it is not working.  If those implementing this tag
also thought we might have reached a point where innovation could be about
to produce a civilization-ending technology, the resulting oppression would
guarantee mass starvation and death, and a lack of solutions to climate
change (most notably among other potential civilization ending problems),
resulting in the extinction of humanity.

By publishing this article, Bostrom has made it ever so slightly more
likely that civilization will worry itself to death.
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From dsunley at gmail.com  Fri Feb 12 17:00:01 2021
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 10:00:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] from Quora
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbL=GMF5UG4nHYg4VNM8NCSPzfs4_mAdFcryGSCoVMHMtA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYa2-63t-+C=MF831HC-mXTB=D9x6gDz9GOD=RcYYGPrA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbL=GMF5UG4nHYg4VNM8NCSPzfs4_mAdFcryGSCoVMHMtA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEptUkSt9NVPYHe-9wHsp+bNwRqN5nm+BB91s_pK_B8WwcLJ8w@mail.gmail.com>

Dead babies are, by definition, not smart.

[Whether they were smart when they were alive is another question
altogether, and non-trivial at that. What does it mean for a nervous system
incapable of using language to be "smart" anyways?]

On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 11:40 AM Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 10:50 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> What surprising traits/behaviors correlate with intelligence?
>>
>> <https://www.quora.com/What-surprising-traits-behaviors-correlate-with-intelligence>
>>
>> Lots of things correlate with intelligence. Some are obvious and some
>> not. Here is one list of correlates:
>>
>> So does that really suggest dead babies aren't smart?
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From sparge at gmail.com  Fri Feb 12 17:01:52 2021
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 12:01:52 -0500
Subject: [ExI] How vulnerable is the world?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armh3S-eVZFfBOdH-q6dj25dbXByqfCON7PCmrSx8MeHxWg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armh1AeDn=hQ+t4bFmFkpP405gW5mYRpnZfn38p2KUHwfTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2ebPA6QM3VYpYXD6Yp1Kfr+totx9r1UB7eadq=rqgs2rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armh3S-eVZFfBOdH-q6dj25dbXByqfCON7PCmrSx8MeHxWg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2egrNHhR-YGJaX2-FrEXEQPsbSX7B+=4hsHE_jJYsB4dA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 11:45 AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> Bostrom admits that he doesn't know that these "black balls" exist, but he
> also says that it is unreasonable to assume that they don't. He is not
> arguing that point. He wants to start a discussion about what society
> should do about more powerful tech becoming available to more and more
> people / nations.
>

What *can* be done? We've tried to contain nuclear technology but the sheer
difficulty of implementation has done more to slow its adoption. If
something inexpensive like CRISPR is a black ball, how could it be
contained?

-Dave
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Feb 12 17:02:12 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 11:02:12 -0600
Subject: [ExI] How vulnerable is the world?
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2eBX7Vfpztz3-ju6ud4yyswgayQWheT139Nwd6=Utt6-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armh1AeDn=hQ+t4bFmFkpP405gW5mYRpnZfn38p2KUHwfTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYSSc1+kzPr4+Q6L2sNLhPogDc-Lbf7kNLH34UT96y5cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2eBX7Vfpztz3-ju6ud4yyswgayQWheT139Nwd6=Utt6-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY3ddz58bKozfr1eyBV0zoBvkLyFkCgp9gjZ7xaNJThmA@mail.gmail.com>

Needed in schools:  how to think; self-control - if we could successfully
teach those, we could change history dramatically.   Many adults are just
grown up children - not mature.  For example, a recent
President.........OKOK!!  I"ll stop!  I'll stop!   bill w

On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 10:52 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 10:47 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> I have been thinking of the sort of mentality that equates assaulting a
>> person on a street in a major U.S. city with blaming China for the virus.
>> I just can't follow the logic.
>>
>
> It's emotional, not logical. Pure xenophobia.
>
> There is some, however flawed, but I just can't see it.  Blaming low IQ
>> people is not the answer when you have people like Robert Kennedy, Jr.
>> heading an organization promoting ideas like the vaccine causes autism.  A
>> dangerous and deadly idea backed by no facts at all.
>>
>
> Yeah, I don't understand that.
>
> -Dave
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Feb 12 17:06:18 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 11:06:18 -0600
Subject: [ExI] article disagrees with headline
In-Reply-To: <001401d7015e$c57a9e20$506fda60$@rainier66.com>
References: <001401d7015e$c57a9e20$506fda60$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYqqqyswo1ZP-1n8t9Tf_H=D8+6O9j94HhSw_U68U5A3g@mail.gmail.com>

I have read that the people who write the articles are not the ones who
write the headlines.  On the one hand, the virus seems to have been
affected by the vaccines (what you were looking for) .  Otoh it seems that
'serious illnesses' (???) have drastically increased.  ???    bill w

On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 11:00 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> I might be misunderstanding this:
>
>
>
> Vaccine vs variant: Promising data in Israel's race to defeat pandemic |
> Reuters
> <https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-israel-results-ins/vaccine-vs-variant-promising-data-in-israels-race-to-defeat-pandemic-idUSKBN2AA0MS>
>
>
>
> It almost seems to suggest younger people might want to just blow off this
> vaccine.
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From dsunley at gmail.com  Fri Feb 12 17:16:21 2021
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 10:16:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] How vulnerable is the world?
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQP2Ttb0zNGKo6-F2HQpc15DSa1jWjpK2nTnBdzN+408A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armh1AeDn=hQ+t4bFmFkpP405gW5mYRpnZfn38p2KUHwfTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2ebPA6QM3VYpYXD6Yp1Kfr+totx9r1UB7eadq=rqgs2rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQP2Ttb0zNGKo6-F2HQpc15DSa1jWjpK2nTnBdzN+408A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEptUkQHq8rdaC+EViZ48UWr+BcMXeT-fdv+ZWA1EMgZAmO0mA@mail.gmail.com>

Nick Bostrom is brilliant, but he /is/ an academic. That means that, at the
end of the day,
A ) he's paid by the published word, and
B ) he has a [probably unexamined and unconscious] deep-seated distrust and
[culturally-inherited] contempt for non-academics, and
C ) he has a deep-seated [and again, probably unconscious and unexamined]
opinion that academics really /should/ be running everything.

Academic pronouncements in general, and these in particular, should always
be seen in the light of these important background facts.

On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 10:08 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 8:16 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> How does Bostrom know that these "black balls" exist? Sure, there are
>> technologies capable of destroying civilizations. But technologies that
>> unavoidably destroy all civilizations? Maybe they exist, but how could he
>> know? How could he know that all the technologies we've deployed so far are
>> not black balls?
>>
>
> Indeed, what if the fear of such a black ball is itself the only true
> black ball?  That is, the only way civilization can actually end is if it
> talks itself into ending over worries of what might happen.
>
> There is some evidence to suggest that this is the case.  Look what
> happens when the precautionary principle takes hold in regulators: existing
> problems don't get tended to, the base of people coming up with new ideas
> also turns out to be the base of people sustaining current technological
> bases so trying to shrink the former population shrinks the latter, and
> generally the area is worse off until years after the phobia passes.
>
> Bostrom speaks of "easy nukes".  We are now in "easy bioweapons".  And
> yet, we are not seeing entire cities devastated.  Bostrom might want to
> consider why that is.  (The answer, in part, is that even with "easy" WMDs,
> you still need some degree of technological sophistication - which is
> generally at odds with being truly homicidal.  Those who are learned enough
> to actually make WMDs are also learned enough to know that destroying major
> parts of the world won't reduce suffering for, or otherwise truly help,
> their own people.)
>
> The "freedom tag" would not accomplish the intended safety.  It would,
> inevitably, miss people actually making weapons; in practice, it would be
> all about the abuse, and deliver little if any actual safety.  Bostrom
> contemplates that resistance would diminish after a few cities are
> destroyed; he fails to realize that cities would continue to be destroyed
> even with the freedom tag, and proponents would just say it had not been
> sufficiently implemented yet - while jaliing and silencing anyone who
> produces evidence that it is not working.  If those implementing this tag
> also thought we might have reached a point where innovation could be about
> to produce a civilization-ending technology, the resulting oppression would
> guarantee mass starvation and death, and a lack of solutions to climate
> change (most notably among other potential civilization ending problems),
> resulting in the extinction of humanity.
>
> By publishing this article, Bostrom has made it ever so slightly more
> likely that civilization will worry itself to death.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Feb 12 17:21:19 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 09:21:19 -0800
Subject: [ExI] How vulnerable is the world?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armh1AeDn=hQ+t4bFmFkpP405gW5mYRpnZfn38p2KUHwfTA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armh1AeDn=hQ+t4bFmFkpP405gW5mYRpnZfn38p2KUHwfTA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004601d70163$7ab6a820$7023f860$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat

---------------

>...In effect his conclusion is that as tech and weapons become more powerful, freedom becomes too dangerous to allow.

BillK

_______________________________________________


The cool part about freedom is that it doesn't ask to be allowed.  It allows itself.  Freedom disallows anything that disallows freedom.

spike



From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Feb 12 17:32:47 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 09:32:47 -0800
Subject: [ExI] How vulnerable is the world?
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2egrNHhR-YGJaX2-FrEXEQPsbSX7B+=4hsHE_jJYsB4dA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armh1AeDn=hQ+t4bFmFkpP405gW5mYRpnZfn38p2KUHwfTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2ebPA6QM3VYpYXD6Yp1Kfr+totx9r1UB7eadq=rqgs2rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armh3S-eVZFfBOdH-q6dj25dbXByqfCON7PCmrSx8MeHxWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2egrNHhR-YGJaX2-FrEXEQPsbSX7B+=4hsHE_jJYsB4dA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQ048jx4kOifBYkn2By=wdVyc9B2Fb5rVgGU9RJ9DRWDA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 9:22 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> What *can* be done? We've tried to contain nuclear technology but the
> sheer difficulty of implementation has done more to slow its adoption. If
> something inexpensive like CRISPR is a black ball, how could it be
> contained?
>

It can't.

The solution is to develop counter-technologies - solutions that de-black a
black ball.

Attempts at containment inevitably result in suppressing development of
these counter-technologies.  (One has to study the original tech to know
how to fight it.  Those interested in fighting it tend not to already know
the tech - and suppression stops them from learning it.)

If they happen to be timed after the destructive potential has become easy
to use but before viable counters can be developed...well, that's one way
civilization can end.

Which is why such containment measures, and the fear behind them, are the
real black ball.
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From dsunley at gmail.com  Fri Feb 12 17:33:56 2021
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 10:33:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] How vulnerable is the world?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEY3ddz58bKozfr1eyBV0zoBvkLyFkCgp9gjZ7xaNJThmA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armh1AeDn=hQ+t4bFmFkpP405gW5mYRpnZfn38p2KUHwfTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYSSc1+kzPr4+Q6L2sNLhPogDc-Lbf7kNLH34UT96y5cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2eBX7Vfpztz3-ju6ud4yyswgayQWheT139Nwd6=Utt6-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEY3ddz58bKozfr1eyBV0zoBvkLyFkCgp9gjZ7xaNJThmA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEptUkT5LDzKA3B2ysmAoUNzy9x3+VNOdUM3+8FEK5ad-DXABw@mail.gmail.com>

Now, now. President Biden may have made some bad legislative choices over
the years, and is clearly grappling with early symptoms of dementia, but
I'd hardly call him a child.

On Fri, Feb 12, 2021, 10:30 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Needed in schools:  how to think; self-control - if we could successfully
> teach those, we could change history dramatically.   Many adults are just
> grown up children - not mature.  For example, a recent
> President.........OKOK!!  I"ll stop!  I'll stop!   bill w
>
> On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 10:52 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 10:47 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I have been thinking of the sort of mentality that equates assaulting a
>>> person on a street in a major U.S. city with blaming China for the virus.
>>> I just can't follow the logic.
>>>
>>
>> It's emotional, not logical. Pure xenophobia.
>>
>> There is some, however flawed, but I just can't see it.  Blaming low IQ
>>> people is not the answer when you have people like Robert Kennedy, Jr.
>>> heading an organization promoting ideas like the vaccine causes autism.  A
>>> dangerous and deadly idea backed by no facts at all.
>>>
>>
>> Yeah, I don't understand that.
>>
>> -Dave
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From dsunley at gmail.com  Fri Feb 12 18:00:18 2021
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 11:00:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] How vulnerable is the world?
In-Reply-To: <004601d70163$7ab6a820$7023f860$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armh1AeDn=hQ+t4bFmFkpP405gW5mYRpnZfn38p2KUHwfTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <004601d70163$7ab6a820$7023f860$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAEptUkREzAP-QLqCN+VmNuNJpDV0DM5HDTRHi3h2cPNK6-Ra_w@mail.gmail.com>

Since at least the French Revolution, the Academy has been consistently and
ceaselessly warning us that unless they are given complete totalitarian
autocratic control over all of human civilization, complete destruction is
inevitable and imminent.

Ironically, the closest humanity has come to complete destruction during
the last few centuries is when significant groups of people have listened
to them.

On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 10:53 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
> BillK via extropy-chat
>
> ---------------
>
> >...In effect his conclusion is that as tech and weapons become more
> powerful, freedom becomes too dangerous to allow.
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> The cool part about freedom is that it doesn't ask to be allowed.  It
> allows itself.  Freedom disallows anything that disallows freedom.
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Feb 12 18:19:27 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 12:19:27 -0600
Subject: [ExI] from Quora
In-Reply-To: <CAEptUkSt9NVPYHe-9wHsp+bNwRqN5nm+BB91s_pK_B8WwcLJ8w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYa2-63t-+C=MF831HC-mXTB=D9x6gDz9GOD=RcYYGPrA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbL=GMF5UG4nHYg4VNM8NCSPzfs4_mAdFcryGSCoVMHMtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkSt9NVPYHe-9wHsp+bNwRqN5nm+BB91s_pK_B8WwcLJ8w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEa+BRJm=cj-7F5wkA2S4tR6Gw2Rz48HZBOhSnyao9FqQg@mail.gmail.com>

 What does it mean for a nervous system incapable of using language to be
"smart" anyways?]  Darin

I am not up on the area of baby psychology, but I have noted some
astounding findings from studies with babies aged 3 to, say, 8 months old.
Plenty of understanding about how things work in the world.  Babies under a
month old are capable of learning manipulative crying - to get food, help.
attention, and so on.  No English language, but plenty of nonverbal
communication.  Ask some parents if their kid is smart.  bill w

On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 11:16 AM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Dead babies are, by definition, not smart.
>
> [Whether they were smart when they were alive is another question
> altogether, and non-trivial at that. What does it mean for a nervous system
> incapable of using language to be "smart" anyways?]
>
> On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 11:40 AM Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 10:50 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> What surprising traits/behaviors correlate with intelligence?
>>>
>>> <https://www.quora.com/What-surprising-traits-behaviors-correlate-with-intelligence>
>>>
>>> Lots of things correlate with intelligence. Some are obvious and some
>>> not. Here is one list of correlates:
>>>
>>> So does that really suggest dead babies aren't smart?
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Fri Feb 12 20:33:15 2021
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 12:33:15 -0800
Subject: [ExI] from Quora
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEa+BRJm=cj-7F5wkA2S4tR6Gw2Rz48HZBOhSnyao9FqQg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa+BRJm=cj-7F5wkA2S4tR6Gw2Rz48HZBOhSnyao9FqQg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2058A2A7-F45F-449F-B6E7-4BEA9BAF5870@gmail.com>

On Feb 12, 2021, at 10:29 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>  What does it mean for a nervous system incapable of using language to be "smart" anyways?]  Darin
> 
> I am not up on the area of baby psychology, but I have noted some astounding findings from studies with babies aged 3 to, say, 8 months old.  Plenty of understanding about how things work in the world.  Babies under a month old are capable of learning manipulative crying - to get food, help. attention, and so on.  No English language, but plenty of nonverbal communication.  Ask some parents if their kid is smart.  bill w

I was going to say problem-solving would be a good indicator, especially novel behaviors.

Regards,

Dan
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Feb 14 19:20:08 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 13:20:08 -0600
Subject: [ExI] health news for joints
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZ7+xdCLKQELqSU2C2VDiqr1qSTKd5A93BsDdGb4FzqxQ@mail.gmail.com>

Most of you have probably seen this:  Paxil, an SSR inhibitor type
antidepressant, has been shown to reduce and even reverse damage to joints
resulting from osteoarthritis.  Studies mostly in mice.  Highly encouraging.

I don't need the antidepressant but I sure do need joint repair.    bill w
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Feb 14 22:08:37 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 16:08:37 -0600
Subject: [ExI] book on cells - TMI !!!!
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYXA04N=VBgpDs6t8Z+W8hbPj9hTs4hjUiUTOpsgOF5YQ@mail.gmail.com>

The Secret Language of Cells - Jon Lieff

I have never in my life read such a book.  Example:  I knew about glial
cells and actually have mentioned them a few times in posts, reminding
everyone that neurons aren't all there is up there.

Little did I know:  thousands of different types, not only feeding neurons,
as I knew but communicating with other glial cells, capillaries (which do
far, far more than carry blood around), T and other immune cells,
choroid-lining cells, and so on.  How many types of glia?  Thousands.
Every progress in electron microscopes yields more types of brain cells.

"Astrocyte signals are different in each brain region, and for each
individual astrocyte.  In addition, signals can be different in each of the
thousands of tiny protrusions on a single astrocyte."

How many types of neurons?  Thousands.  How many types of
neurotransmitters?  Thirty so far. Number of ways of communicating with
other cells:  four so far.  1 - the well-known chemical communication at
synapses, 2 - electrical communication with other neurons, 3 - electrical
communication with other types of cells, 4 - signals taking place other
than at the synapse.The first two have to occur together.

Capillaries.  Vital building partners in all phases of tissue growth and
management.  Sends signals to maintain normal metabolism; regulate the
growth of all tissue cells; get directions from discussions (!) among stem
cells, blood cells, tissue cells, and local neurons, call for immune
response help in cases of infection and alerts T cells into action
(chemical signals through the bloodstream).  When rebuilding damaged
tissue, capillaries communicate with stem cells to avoid production of
scars from excess fibers.

Just carrying blood, huh!?

Brain waves:  side effects of neurons firing, right? In part.  They can be
signals from one part of the brain to another telling it that a message is
coming, and then it does.

Every paragraph contains content that could be studied all of one's life.

What did I get out of it?  As I went along I saw how far we are from even
thinking of anything like uploading a brain.  Every cell talks to more than
one other type of cell and in numerous ways.

Just totally overwhelming - stunning.  Usually I take a pencil and
underline important parts.  Might as well underline everything.  And yet I
could understand every word of it - written for the educated layman.

I did not read every word.  No point to it.  Enormously influenced my ideas
of brain function, and how long it will take to really get a handle on it,
if we ever can do that.

p.s. the author points out the fMRI does not measure neuronal activity, but
blood flow

bill w
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From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Feb 17 14:58:49 2021
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2021 14:58:49 +0000
Subject: [ExI] How to watch Perseverance Mars landing on Thursday 18 Feb
Message-ID: <CAL_armjNxDwXTRs2jQWDKuQwHbEPO-PXpBGQ_4ZpvPYwATaKUw@mail.gmail.com>

Show starts at 11:15 a.m. PST / 2:15 p.m. EST / 19:15 UTC

Landing is just around the corner and there?s lots of programming you
can tune in for. Use the table below to see all of the upcoming shows.
On landing day, the broadcast will be available here and on multiple
platforms. Scroll down to find your favorite platform and enjoy the
show.

<https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/timeline/landing/watch-online/>

Good luck!   Landing on Mars is really difficult.

BillK


From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Feb 17 15:23:27 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2021 07:23:27 -0800
Subject: [ExI] How to watch Perseverance Mars landing on Thursday 18 Feb
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjNxDwXTRs2jQWDKuQwHbEPO-PXpBGQ_4ZpvPYwATaKUw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjNxDwXTRs2jQWDKuQwHbEPO-PXpBGQ_4ZpvPYwATaKUw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003201d70540$d7c24d40$8746e7c0$@rainier66.com>


...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat
Subject: [ExI] How to watch Perseverance Mars landing on Thursday 18 Feb

Show starts at 11:15 a.m. PST / 2:15 p.m. EST / 19:15 UTC

>...Landing is just around the corner ...Scroll down to find your favorite platform and enjoy the show.

<https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/timeline/landing/watch-online/>

Good luck!   Landing on Mars is really difficult.

BillK

_______________________________________________



Thanks BillK!  The school board arranged for the winter break to be during this landing attempt.  Our scout group is planning a Zoom watch party.  The Perseverance mission uses the same landing technique as the one that worked for Curiosity in 2012.  It worked that time.  Let's see if we can make it a twofer.

Regarding that whole parachute, four-thruster, lower on a cable to the surface procedure, we control freaks were very impressed when that all worked.  The controls guys who worked on that system had a big status symbol there, a much-respected ribbon on the chest.  They deserved it: that was one hell of a tricky sequence, unforgiving as cancel culture, so little margin for error.

Tomorrow!  Good luck to Planet Earth!

spike



From sparge at gmail.com  Wed Feb 17 16:12:01 2021
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2021 11:12:01 -0500
Subject: [ExI] How to watch Perseverance Mars landing on Thursday 18 Feb
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjNxDwXTRs2jQWDKuQwHbEPO-PXpBGQ_4ZpvPYwATaKUw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjNxDwXTRs2jQWDKuQwHbEPO-PXpBGQ_4ZpvPYwATaKUw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fd7aix-m58WMC2RfF7PQiEcM2W89gL_9-8hQ-n1nyBAA@mail.gmail.com>

Here's a short clip about my workplace's contribution to Perseverance:

youtube.com/watch?v=mV1sYjE-zMU

-Dave

On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 10:04 AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Show starts at 11:15 a.m. PST / 2:15 p.m. EST / 19:15 UTC
>
> Landing is just around the corner and there?s lots of programming you
> can tune in for. Use the table below to see all of the upcoming shows.
> On landing day, the broadcast will be available here and on multiple
> platforms. Scroll down to find your favorite platform and enjoy the
> show.
>
> <https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/timeline/landing/watch-online/>
>
> Good luck!   Landing on Mars is really difficult.
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From bronto at pobox.com  Wed Feb 17 16:12:44 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2021 08:12:44 -0800
Subject: [ExI] How to watch Perseverance Mars landing on Thursday 18 Feb
In-Reply-To: <003201d70540$d7c24d40$8746e7c0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armjNxDwXTRs2jQWDKuQwHbEPO-PXpBGQ_4ZpvPYwATaKUw@mail.gmail.com>
 <003201d70540$d7c24d40$8746e7c0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <1a658805-0de2-6367-42cf-7ca081fae1c6@pobox.com>

On 2021-2-17 07:23, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:
> The school board arranged for the winter break to be during this landing attempt.

An uncommonly short break, then.  :P

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org

From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Feb 17 17:12:12 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2021 09:12:12 -0800
Subject: [ExI] school. was: RE: How to watch Perseverance Mars landing on
 Thursday 18 Feb
Message-ID: <00d201d70550$08abfa50$1a03eef0$@rainier66.com>


....> On Behalf Of Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat

Subject: Re: [ExI] How to watch Perseverance Mars landing on Thursday 18 Feb

On 2021-2-17 07:23, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:
>> The school board arranged for the winter break to be during this landing
attempt.

>...An uncommonly short break, then.  :P

--
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org
_______________________________________________



School's out for the week.

Just kidding of course.  School has been out for nearly a year, depending on
how one looks at it.  For some of the students, the ones who know how to
take ownership of their own education, school went on, and for a small
minority it really kicked into high gear, with better results than in-person
classes.

For others, an entire critically-important year was pretty much lost.  This
has been turned into a pollical football in the USA (surprise!)  Our public
schools have the notion that the goal is to have the graduates as equal as
possible at diploma day.  The shutdown has defeated that goal 17 ways to
Sunday.

Ja, I am fully aware that comment risks igniting a firestorm of controversy.
But it isn't USA politics as far as I can tell, or if so, who is on which
side.  Every country in the world is facing these same kinds of questions
and seeing the same things we are: online learning just doesn't work for
some, but does for others, and works better than normal for a few.  OK than,
most here would agree on that observation.  So... what happens next?

spike


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Feb 17 17:44:42 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2021 11:44:42 -0600
Subject: [ExI] school. was: RE: How to watch Perseverance Mars landing
 on Thursday 18 Feb
In-Reply-To: <00d201d70550$08abfa50$1a03eef0$@rainier66.com>
References: <00d201d70550$08abfa50$1a03eef0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaBBWv0FQC2BZ80fzBfrMX8aGe=BL6HsQjLkYmhgr6=Sw@mail.gmail.com>

 online learning just doesn't work for
some, but does for others, and works better than normal for a few.  OK than,
most here would agree on that observation.  So... what happens next? spike

I don't know the answer but it should be easy to determine for someone
motivated to do it - that is, not me.  Find out what happens when you
separate the best students from the rest in past studies (meaning real
classrooms full of people).  I have no guess.

Who is it that is doing better than normal with distance learning?  If it
is the top students - my guess - then let them study from home as long as
it doesn't hurt the other 80% (90%?; 95%?) of the students.

This will be a problem with the younger students if both parents work
outside the home.  bill w

On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 11:16 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> ....> On Behalf Of Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat
>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] How to watch Perseverance Mars landing on Thursday 18
> Feb
>
> On 2021-2-17 07:23, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:
> >> The school board arranged for the winter break to be during this landing
> attempt.
>
> >...An uncommonly short break, then.  :P
>
> --
> *\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> School's out for the week.
>
> Just kidding of course.  School has been out for nearly a year, depending
> on
> how one looks at it.  For some of the students, the ones who know how to
> take ownership of their own education, school went on, and for a small
> minority it really kicked into high gear, with better results than
> in-person
> classes.
>
> For others, an entire critically-important year was pretty much lost.  This
> has been turned into a pollical football in the USA (surprise!)  Our public
> schools have the notion that the goal is to have the graduates as equal as
> possible at diploma day.  The shutdown has defeated that goal 17 ways to
> Sunday.
>
> Ja, I am fully aware that comment risks igniting a firestorm of
> controversy.
> But it isn't USA politics as far as I can tell, or if so, who is on which
> side.  Every country in the world is facing these same kinds of questions
> and seeing the same things we are: online learning just doesn't work for
> some, but does for others, and works better than normal for a few.  OK
> than,
> most here would agree on that observation.  So... what happens next?
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Feb 17 17:58:18 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2021 09:58:18 -0800
Subject: [ExI] school. was: RE: How to watch Perseverance Mars landing
 on Thursday 18 Feb
In-Reply-To: <00d201d70550$08abfa50$1a03eef0$@rainier66.com>
References: <00d201d70550$08abfa50$1a03eef0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <000c01d70556$79535630$6bfa0290$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
>...From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
spike jones via extropy-chat
...


>...School's out for the week.

>...Just kidding of course.  School has been out for nearly a year,
depending on how one looks at it.  For some of the students, the ones who
know how to take ownership of their own education, school went on, and for a
small minority it really kicked into high gear, with better results than
in-person classes....spike

_______________________________________________


Example... one of the tasks the teachers were asked to accept when
transitioning to online learning is to map out and post online the entire
semester's curriculum and assignments, then to not change them after the
fact.  The teaching staff was asked to plan the semester in detail.  As far
as I can tell, most of them complied.

Well... if the students have the schedule, they have the assignments, they
have the online study material and they have a clear definition of where
they are going and what skills they are expected to master, it
merit-badge-izes school.

Do explain please, spike.  OK spike, I would be happy to.  

In scouts we have discrete skills that earns the scout a merit badge if he
or she performs all the tasks and masters all the clearly-defined requisite
skills.  There is no defined schedule: scouts must take ownership of their
own progress, do all the work, ask for guidance if needed, arranging for
classes if necessary, etc.  They must take ownership of their own progress.

In traditional school, the teacher sets the pace.  In online learning, the
students do.  In online learning, the (effective) students take ownership of
their education.  As in scouts, we see some who turn stumbling blocks into
stepping stones and others who turn stepping stones into stumbling blocks.
Some use the shutdown to earn a tall pile of merit badges, others earn
nothing.  Online learning forces a kind of merit-badge-izing of public
school.  

Predicted result: colleges will press ever harder in defeating the factors
that make them academic meritocracies.

spike






From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Feb 18 21:16:09 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 13:16:09 -0800
Subject: [ExI] down safe
Message-ID: <003a01d7063b$47753620$d65fa260$@rainier66.com>

 

Perseverance is down safe on the surface.  I am so impressed, that landing
sequence is a looooong row of dominoes, all of which need to fall exactly
right to set down a payload of this size.

 

Well done NASA!

 

spike

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From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Feb 18 21:19:48 2021
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 21:19:48 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Perseverance has landed successfully on Mars!
Message-ID: <CAL_armiwxLvriiH0p=tNSp=SGDKjdmmkWSUOi_4iuuc7sOQG-A@mail.gmail.com>

The Lander is alive and has sent back the first photo of the landing site.

All systems appear to have worked perfectly!

Well done!

BillK

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Feb 18 21:26:37 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 15:26:37 -0600
Subject: [ExI] down safe
In-Reply-To: <003a01d7063b$47753620$d65fa260$@rainier66.com>
References: <003a01d7063b$47753620$d65fa260$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZtE+f_4nit_TYsLHZySozj+fj9f_-Fv17-Aa3pr1e1zQ@mail.gmail.com>

I have just run across a word few to me:  sockdolager, meaning 1.
a decisive
<https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/decisive> blow or
remark <https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/remark>
2.
an outstanding
<https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/outstand> person
or thing
In either Sweet Thursday or Cannery Row a party was described with a word I
cannot recall but I think it rhymes with the word above.  Can you remember
it?

bill w


On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 3:19 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> Perseverance is down safe on the surface.  I am so impressed, that landing
> sequence is a looooong row of dominoes, all of which need to fall exactly
> right to set down a payload of this size.
>
>
>
> Well done NASA!
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Thu Feb 18 21:45:00 2021
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 14:45:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] First 5 chapters of our video on conscoiusness just went up.
Message-ID: <CAK7-onsjrZGTa3kN6a2MRni6m7JC5As6vzSdG2jG+96oeF_AcQ@mail.gmail.com>

It's not a "Hard Mind Body Problem"
<https://canonizer.com/videos/consciousness/>
It's just an intrinsic color problem
<https://canonizer.com/videos/consciousness/>


Would love to hear your thoughts.
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Feb 20 12:38:41 2021
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2021 12:38:41 +0000
Subject: [ExI] In Italy,
 Da Vinci robot removes kidney tumor from awake patient
Message-ID: <CAL_armhkGiL4HSFzrufoty5zZZ+M4Z0sPC7m4tnCEeG-_aUEHA@mail.gmail.com>

After defeating a malignant tumor years earlier by removing a lung,
the patient lived with an ever-expanding kidney tumor, which could not
be removed due to severe respiratory problems.
The mass had reached five centimeters and had gained depth, so surgery
was essential to prevent the spread of the tumor. Doctors immediately
rejected the laparoscopy, which would have involved the risk of
triggering a further expansion of the mass, as well as traditional
surgery, which could have caused serious complications.
The solution immediately seemed to be only one: robotic surgery made
through the innovative Da Vinci Robot.

<https://tech2.org/italy/ia-da-vinci-robot-removes-kidney-tumor-from-awake-patient/>

Although it is a robot, the surgery is not performed autonomously by a
computer: in fact, the expert hand of a surgeon always operates this
technology. The hope is that in the future Artificial Intelligence
will be able to operate with full autonomy in this area as well,
accelerating the pace of progress and laying the foundations for a
true revolution.
--------------------


Da Vinci surgical robots are also in use in the UK. The keyhole surgery
technique leads to exceptionally quick recovery times from serious
operations. They do need a skilled surgeon to operate them though.

BillK

From hibbard at wisc.edu  Sat Feb 20 18:26:24 2021
From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2021 12:26:24 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [ExI] possible sign of ancient life on Mars
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.2102201225180.13369@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>

https://daveblaska.files.wordpress.com/2021/02/cropped-mars.jpg

From ben at zaiboc.net  Sun Feb 21 08:55:40 2021
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 08:55:40 +0000
Subject: [ExI] book on cells - TMI !!!!
In-Reply-To: <mailman.10.1613824773.658.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.10.1613824773.658.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <2a69656e-1968-1df4-e0ae-a6f88ebc136f@zaiboc.net>

On 20/02/2021 12:39, bill w wrote:
> The Secret Language of Cells - Jon Lieff
>
> I have never in my life read such a book.? Example:? I knew about 
> glial cells and actually have mentioned them a few times in posts, 
> reminding everyone that neurons aren't all there is up there.
>
> Little did I know: thousands of different types, not only feeding 
> neurons, as I knew but communicating with other glial cells, 
> capillaries (which do far, far more than carry blood around), T and 
> other immune cells, choroid-lining cells, and so on.? How many types 
> of glia?? Thousands.? Every progress in electron microscopes yields 
> more types of brain cells.
>
> "Astrocyte signals are different in each brain region, and for each 
> individual astrocyte.? In addition, signals can be different in each 
> of the thousands of tiny protrusions on a single astrocyte."
>
> How many types of neurons?? Thousands.? How many types of 
> neurotransmitters? Thirty so far. Number?of ways of communicating with 
> other cells:? four so far.? 1 - the well-known chemical communication 
> at synapses, 2 - electrical communication with other neurons, 3 - 
> electrical communication with other types of cells, 4 - signals taking 
> place other than at the synapse.The first two have to occur together.
>
> Capillaries.? Vital building partners in all phases of tissue growth 
> and management.? Sends signals to maintain normal metabolism; regulate 
> the growth of all tissue cells; get directions from discussions (!) 
> among stem cells, blood cells, tissue cells, and local neurons, call 
> for immune response help in cases of infection and alerts T cells into 
> action (chemical signals through the bloodstream).? When rebuilding 
> damaged tissue, capillaries communicate with stem cells to avoid 
> production of scars from excess fibers.
>
> Just carrying blood, huh!?
>
> Brain waves:? side effects of neurons firing, right? In part.? They 
> can be signals from one part of the brain to another telling it that a 
> message is coming, and then it does.
>
> Every paragraph contains content that could be studied all of one's life.
>
> What did I get out of it?? As I went along I saw how far we are from 
> even thinking of anything like uploading a brain.? Every cell talks to 
> more than one other type of cell and in numerous ways.
>
> Just totally overwhelming - stunning.? Usually I take a pencil and 
> underline important parts.? Might as well underline everything.? And 
> yet I could understand every word of it - written for the educated 
> layman.
>
> I did not read every word.? No point to it.? Enormously influenced my 
> ideas of brain function, and how long it will take to really get a 
> handle on it, if we ever can do that.
>
> p.s. the author points out the fMRI does not measure neuronal 
> activity, but blood flow
>
> bill w


We could similarly observe the complexities of the structures of 
cellulose and hemicelluloste fibres, their interactions with lignin and 
other substances in wood, the many different grain patterns that show 
up, the many different physical and chemical interactions with other 
substances like metals and plastics, the physics and chemistry of wound 
steel strings, the enormous numbers and complexity of the wool fibres in 
felt, the ways that different types of glue behave in bonding felt to 
wood, the frictional properties of metal pegs in wooden holes, the 
physical properties of springs, and literally thousands of other 
completely relevant and important things that contribute to the 
structure and function of a piano, and conclude that, in view of all 
this complexity, making another piano is well-nigh impossible.

The level of detail at which you study, understand and model a system is 
important.
If we don't consider this before starting, we end up lost in impossible 
complexity, no matter what the system is. Even a spoon has many levels 
of detail, and what you want to do in relation to the spoon will 
determine which level you need to work at, what you need to understand: 
It might be Polymer Chemistry, Metallurgy, Engineering, Design, 
Ergonomics, etc. Nobody needs to use (or can realistically understand) 
them all.

We don't yet know exactly what level of detail is needed to model a mind 
for the purposes of uploading, but it's unlikely to be so deep that we 
might as well give up the attempt before even starting. Just as an 
understanding of the physics of transistors isn't needed for writing 
computer programs, I think it's doubtful that an understanding of all 
the complex details of brain biology will be necessary for mind 
uploading. There will be a level of detail that is necessary and 
sufficient, we'll find out what it is, and we'll use it just as a 
musical instrument maker uses his knowledge of specific properties of 
certain woods and metals without needing to know anything about 
chemistry or quantum physics.

-- 
Ben Zaiboc

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From giulio at gmail.com  Sun Feb 21 15:42:52 2021
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 16:42:52 +0100
Subject: [ExI] book on cells - TMI !!!!
In-Reply-To: <2a69656e-1968-1df4-e0ae-a6f88ebc136f@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.10.1613824773.658.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <2a69656e-1968-1df4-e0ae-a6f88ebc136f@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyeju06jov+E+1V9Fp5Uym=b-A0RXdP=of7+HGrThTSxBw@mail.gmail.com>

I started reading this book. Very interesting!

On 2021. Feb 21., Sun at 9:57, Ben via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On 20/02/2021 12:39, bill w wrote:
>
> The Secret Language of Cells - Jon Lieff
>
> I have never in my life read such a book.  Example:  I knew about glial
> cells and actually have mentioned them a few times in posts, reminding
> everyone that neurons aren't all there is up there.
>
> Little did I know:  thousands of different types, not only feeding
> neurons, as I knew but communicating with other glial cells, capillaries
> (which do far, far more than carry blood around), T and other immune cells,
> choroid-lining cells, and so on.  How many types of glia?  Thousands.
> Every progress in electron microscopes yields more types of brain cells.
>
> "Astrocyte signals are different in each brain region, and for each
> individual astrocyte.  In addition, signals can be different in each of the
> thousands of tiny protrusions on a single astrocyte."
>
> How many types of neurons?  Thousands.  How many types of
> neurotransmitters?  Thirty so far. Number of ways of communicating with
> other cells:  four so far.  1 - the well-known chemical communication at
> synapses, 2 - electrical communication with other neurons, 3 - electrical
> communication with other types of cells, 4 - signals taking place other
> than at the synapse.The first two have to occur together.
>
> Capillaries.  Vital building partners in all phases of tissue growth and
> management.  Sends signals to maintain normal metabolism; regulate the
> growth of all tissue cells; get directions from discussions (!) among stem
> cells, blood cells, tissue cells, and local neurons, call for immune
> response help in cases of infection and alerts T cells into action
> (chemical signals through the bloodstream).  When rebuilding damaged
> tissue, capillaries communicate with stem cells to avoid production of
> scars from excess fibers.
>
> Just carrying blood, huh!?
>
> Brain waves:  side effects of neurons firing, right? In part.  They can be
> signals from one part of the brain to another telling it that a message is
> coming, and then it does.
>
> Every paragraph contains content that could be studied all of one's life.
>
> What did I get out of it?  As I went along I saw how far we are from even
> thinking of anything like uploading a brain.  Every cell talks to more than
> one other type of cell and in numerous ways.
>
> Just totally overwhelming - stunning.  Usually I take a pencil and
> underline important parts.  Might as well underline everything.  And yet I
> could understand every word of it - written for the educated layman.
>
> I did not read every word.  No point to it.  Enormously influenced my
> ideas of brain function, and how long it will take to really get a handle
> on it, if we ever can do that.
>
> p.s. the author points out the fMRI does not measure neuronal activity,
> but blood flow
>
> bill w
>
>
>
> We could similarly observe the complexities of the structures of cellulose
> and hemicelluloste fibres, their interactions with lignin and other
> substances in wood, the many different grain patterns that show up, the
> many different physical and chemical interactions with other substances
> like metals and plastics, the physics and chemistry of wound steel strings,
> the enormous numbers and complexity of the wool fibres in felt, the ways
> that different types of glue behave in bonding felt to wood, the frictional
> properties of metal pegs in wooden holes, the physical properties of
> springs, and literally thousands of other completely relevant and important
> things that contribute to the structure and function of a piano, and
> conclude that, in view of all this complexity, making another piano is
> well-nigh impossible.
>
> The level of detail at which you study, understand and model a system is
> important.
> If we don't consider this before starting, we end up lost in impossible
> complexity, no matter what the system is. Even a spoon has many levels of
> detail, and what you want to do in relation to the spoon will determine
> which level you need to work at, what you need to understand: It might be
> Polymer Chemistry, Metallurgy, Engineering, Design, Ergonomics, etc. Nobody
> needs to use (or can realistically understand) them all.
>
> We don't yet know exactly what level of detail is needed to model a mind
> for the purposes of uploading, but it's unlikely to be so deep that we
> might as well give up the attempt before even starting. Just as an
> understanding of the physics of transistors isn't needed for writing
> computer programs, I think it's doubtful that an understanding of all the
> complex details of brain biology will be necessary for mind uploading.
> There will be a level of detail that is necessary and sufficient, we'll
> find out what it is, and we'll use it just as a musical instrument maker
> uses his knowledge of specific properties of certain woods and metals
> without needing to know anything about chemistry or quantum physics.
>
>
> --
> Ben Zaiboc
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Feb 21 16:40:53 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 10:40:53 -0600
Subject: [ExI] book on cells - TMI !!!!
In-Reply-To: <2a69656e-1968-1df4-e0ae-a6f88ebc136f@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.10.1613824773.658.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <2a69656e-1968-1df4-e0ae-a6f88ebc136f@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEb7qECyQ=6=D1VNdNXYOWQdSrdMRAgY5mhAcG7793S2wg@mail.gmail.com>

Well Ben, you describe a scenario where you upload a concert pianist and
get an AI that can play the hell out of chopsticks.  Details don't really
matter, eh?   bill

On Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 2:58 AM Ben via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On 20/02/2021 12:39, bill w wrote:
>
> The Secret Language of Cells - Jon Lieff
>
> I have never in my life read such a book.  Example:  I knew about glial
> cells and actually have mentioned them a few times in posts, reminding
> everyone that neurons aren't all there is up there.
>
> Little did I know:  thousands of different types, not only feeding
> neurons, as I knew but communicating with other glial cells, capillaries
> (which do far, far more than carry blood around), T and other immune cells,
> choroid-lining cells, and so on.  How many types of glia?  Thousands.
> Every progress in electron microscopes yields more types of brain cells.
>
> "Astrocyte signals are different in each brain region, and for each
> individual astrocyte.  In addition, signals can be different in each of the
> thousands of tiny protrusions on a single astrocyte."
>
> How many types of neurons?  Thousands.  How many types of
> neurotransmitters?  Thirty so far. Number of ways of communicating with
> other cells:  four so far.  1 - the well-known chemical communication at
> synapses, 2 - electrical communication with other neurons, 3 - electrical
> communication with other types of cells, 4 - signals taking place other
> than at the synapse.The first two have to occur together.
>
> Capillaries.  Vital building partners in all phases of tissue growth and
> management.  Sends signals to maintain normal metabolism; regulate the
> growth of all tissue cells; get directions from discussions (!) among stem
> cells, blood cells, tissue cells, and local neurons, call for immune
> response help in cases of infection and alerts T cells into action
> (chemical signals through the bloodstream).  When rebuilding damaged
> tissue, capillaries communicate with stem cells to avoid production of
> scars from excess fibers.
>
> Just carrying blood, huh!?
>
> Brain waves:  side effects of neurons firing, right? In part.  They can be
> signals from one part of the brain to another telling it that a message is
> coming, and then it does.
>
> Every paragraph contains content that could be studied all of one's life.
>
> What did I get out of it?  As I went along I saw how far we are from even
> thinking of anything like uploading a brain.  Every cell talks to more than
> one other type of cell and in numerous ways.
>
> Just totally overwhelming - stunning.  Usually I take a pencil and
> underline important parts.  Might as well underline everything.  And yet I
> could understand every word of it - written for the educated layman.
>
> I did not read every word.  No point to it.  Enormously influenced my
> ideas of brain function, and how long it will take to really get a handle
> on it, if we ever can do that.
>
> p.s. the author points out the fMRI does not measure neuronal activity,
> but blood flow
>
> bill w
>
>
>
> We could similarly observe the complexities of the structures of cellulose
> and hemicelluloste fibres, their interactions with lignin and other
> substances in wood, the many different grain patterns that show up, the
> many different physical and chemical interactions with other substances
> like metals and plastics, the physics and chemistry of wound steel strings,
> the enormous numbers and complexity of the wool fibres in felt, the ways
> that different types of glue behave in bonding felt to wood, the frictional
> properties of metal pegs in wooden holes, the physical properties of
> springs, and literally thousands of other completely relevant and important
> things that contribute to the structure and function of a piano, and
> conclude that, in view of all this complexity, making another piano is
> well-nigh impossible.
>
> The level of detail at which you study, understand and model a system is
> important.
> If we don't consider this before starting, we end up lost in impossible
> complexity, no matter what the system is. Even a spoon has many levels of
> detail, and what you want to do in relation to the spoon will determine
> which level you need to work at, what you need to understand: It might be
> Polymer Chemistry, Metallurgy, Engineering, Design, Ergonomics, etc. Nobody
> needs to use (or can realistically understand) them all.
>
> We don't yet know exactly what level of detail is needed to model a mind
> for the purposes of uploading, but it's unlikely to be so deep that we
> might as well give up the attempt before even starting. Just as an
> understanding of the physics of transistors isn't needed for writing
> computer programs, I think it's doubtful that an understanding of all the
> complex details of brain biology will be necessary for mind uploading.
> There will be a level of detail that is necessary and sufficient, we'll
> find out what it is, and we'll use it just as a musical instrument maker
> uses his knowledge of specific properties of certain woods and metals
> without needing to know anything about chemistry or quantum physics.
>
> --
> Ben Zaiboc
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Feb 21 17:56:51 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 09:56:51 -0800
Subject: [ExI] covid data
Message-ID: <002301d7087a$ef3e9f90$cdbbdeb0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

 

Ok well. the signal is clear enough now, and not surprising.  We saw the
covid cases go way up with the start of flu season.  It looked like it
peaked and was heading back down in November, but. the festival of
Thanksgiving, family gatherings indoors, back up it went.

 

Peaked once again in the third week of December as the Thanksgiving peak ran
its course, was heading back down, reaching a local minumum on 29 December,
when new cases from Christmas family gatherings kicked in.

 

New Years celebrations contributed perhaps, but new covid cases in the USA
peaked on 11 Jan 2021 at 255k.  Today they dropped below 70k for 7 day
rolling average, so less than third of what it was  six weeks ago and
dropping.

 

Vaccinations might have been part of it, but with 20% vaccinated, it isn't
the driver.

 

Theory: it is indoor gatherings doing this, always has been, just as indoor
gatherings spread the regular flu since always.  This data isn't hard to
read.  It's hard to mis-read.

 

spike

 

 



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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Feb 21 18:40:07 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 12:40:07 -0600
Subject: [ExI] covid data
In-Reply-To: <002301d7087a$ef3e9f90$cdbbdeb0$@rainier66.com>
References: <002301d7087a$ef3e9f90$cdbbdeb0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZz+AcpdWh=XZSeuH3eeWrmDWE15Lv3iD1CRVXx1LXPFQ@mail.gmail.com>

Spike, I think you might have to retract your statement that there are
enough vaccine meds around but they lack volunteers.  That is certainly not
true here - Nat'l Guard was there when I got mine.  Today there are no
available appts. in the Jackson area.  No vaccines. I did get my second
appt. so it is not affecting me.  (did you think of that word in Steinbeck
that sounds like 'socdolager'? )  bill w

On Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 12:00 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>
> Ok well? the signal is clear enough now, and not surprising.  We saw the
> covid cases go way up with the start of flu season.  It looked like it
> peaked and was heading back down in November, but? the festival of
> Thanksgiving, family gatherings indoors, back up it went.
>
>
>
> Peaked once again in the third week of December as the Thanksgiving peak
> ran its course, was heading back down, reaching a local minumum on 29
> December, when new cases from Christmas family gatherings kicked in.
>
>
>
> New Years celebrations contributed perhaps, but new covid cases in the USA
> peaked on 11 Jan 2021 at 255k.  Today they dropped below 70k for 7 day
> rolling average, so less than third of what it was  six weeks ago and
> dropping.
>
>
>
> Vaccinations might have been part of it, but with 20% vaccinated, it isn?t
> the driver.
>
>
>
> Theory: it is indoor gatherings doing this, always has been, just as
> indoor gatherings spread the regular flu since always.  This data isn?t
> hard to read.  It?s hard to mis-read.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Feb 21 19:07:26 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 11:07:26 -0800
Subject: [ExI] covid data
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZz+AcpdWh=XZSeuH3eeWrmDWE15Lv3iD1CRVXx1LXPFQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002301d7087a$ef3e9f90$cdbbdeb0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZz+AcpdWh=XZSeuH3eeWrmDWE15Lv3iD1CRVXx1LXPFQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004401d70884$cbd26eb0$63774c10$@rainier66.com>

 

?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] covid data

 

>?Spike, I think you might have to retract your statement that there are enough vaccine meds around but they lack volunteers.  That is certainly not true here - Nat'l Guard was there when I got mine.  Today there are no available appts. in the Jackson area.  No vaccines. I did get my second appt. so it is not affecting me.  (did you think of that word in Steinbeck that sounds like 'socdolager'? )  bill w 

 

 

 

 

BillW it depends on where you live.  Some places don?t have enough vaccine, some don?t have enough trained personnel.  Some have some of each.  In California our governor is facing recall because rules of distribution were put in place which landed us near last place in immunizations per prole when we had enough vaccine to at least make it to middle of the pack.

 

A controversial policy was not scheduling a first appointment until a second one could be confirmed.  This was likely a mistake, but? mistakes happen.

 

Production of anything can be ramped up, but production of people that the insurance companies are willing to cover as observers cannot be ramped up as quickly, even if you have enough volunteers (which is unlikely.)  There is a reason why about a million Americans a day is about as high as can be reasonably sustained, and even then, there will be spot shortages of vaccine and a persistent shortage of qualified observers.

 

I don?t think the vaccine is the biggest player in the shape of this data however.  If we compare Canada?s data to USA, there is a very clear Thanksgiving surge in addition to Christmas/New Years, whereas Canada?s version of Thanksgiving is in October and might not involve as much (this I don?t know for sure.)  It is clear enough to me that vaccines and masks and all that are factors, but this signal is dominated by in-person gatherings indoors.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 



_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Feb 21 19:09:29 2021
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 19:09:29 +0000
Subject: [ExI] covid data
In-Reply-To: <002301d7087a$ef3e9f90$cdbbdeb0$@rainier66.com>
References: <002301d7087a$ef3e9f90$cdbbdeb0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgU3cECnngSv8a61prVo06_0EG_983q9cmJeupadK_tWw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 21 Feb 2021 at 18:01, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Ok well? the signal is clear enough now, and not surprising.  We saw the covid cases go way up with the start of flu season.  It looked like it peaked and was heading back down in November, but? the festival of Thanksgiving, family gatherings indoors, back up it went.
>
> Peaked once again in the third week of December as the Thanksgiving peak ran its course, was heading back down, reaching a local minumum on 29 December, when new cases from Christmas family gatherings kicked in.
>
> New Years celebrations contributed perhaps, but new covid cases in the USA peaked on 11 Jan 2021 at 255k.  Today they dropped below 70k for 7 day rolling average, so less than third of what it was  six weeks ago and dropping.
>
> Vaccinations might have been part of it, but with 20% vaccinated, it isn?t the driver.
>
> Theory: it is indoor gatherings doing this, always has been, just as indoor gatherings spread the regular flu since always.  This data isn?t hard to read.  It?s hard to mis-read.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


The good news, of course, is that Covid has eliminated the usual
winter flu. No more flu - Amazing!

The other good news is that on Dec 14, 2020 the WHO issued guidance to
correct the way that PCR tests were done because they were giving too
many false detections of Covid.
The WHO document is titled, ?WHO Information Notice for IVD
Users/Nucleic acid testing (NAT) technologies that use real-time
polymerase chain reaction (RT-PCR) for detection of SARS-CoV-2.?

One commentator translated this document as:
?We?re changing the way we?re doing PCR tests. We were running them
with a high number of cycles and getting millions of false positives,
and those numbers were deployed to justify the lockdowns?but NOW we?re
moving to a lower number of cycles. This change, all on its own, will
result in fewer positive results, fewer case numbers, making the
vaccine look VERY GOOD.?
-----------------------

I find it difficult to believe much of what passes for "news" these days.


BillK


From ben at zaiboc.net  Sun Feb 21 19:26:41 2021
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 19:26:41 +0000
Subject: [ExI] book on cells - TMI !!!!
In-Reply-To: <mailman.13.1613930227.658.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.13.1613930227.658.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <a8e1017a-e211-42a0-8e06-4b2b0ede8a21@zaiboc.net>

On 21/02/2021 17:57, bill w wrote:
> Well Ben, you describe a scenario where you upload a concert pianist 
> and get an AI that can play the hell out of chopsticks.? Details don't 
> really matter, eh?? ?bill

Of course details matter. The trick is picking the /relevant/ details. 
I'm 99.99% sure we can ignore the details of neuronal microtubules, but 
99.999% sure that we can't ignore the details of axonal connections. 
It's a matter of picking the right layer/s of detail, and zooming in on 
that, but ignoring the wrong levels.

A big problem at the moment is that we're not sure what the right levels 
are, but we are getting more sure about the wrong ones, I think.

-- 
Ben Zaiboc

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From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Feb 21 19:33:46 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 11:33:46 -0800
Subject: [ExI] covid data
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZz+AcpdWh=XZSeuH3eeWrmDWE15Lv3iD1CRVXx1LXPFQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002301d7087a$ef3e9f90$cdbbdeb0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZz+AcpdWh=XZSeuH3eeWrmDWE15Lv3iD1CRVXx1LXPFQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004c01d70888$79581870$6c084950$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2021 10:40 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] covid data

 

>?Spike, I think you might have to retract your statement that there are enough vaccine meds around but they lack volunteers.  That is certainly not true here - Nat'l Guard was there when I got mine?  billw

 

Why was the National Guard there?

 

The local policy required two appointments to be made before the first vaccine could be poked.  This of course required that one dose had to be held in reserve.  The program is said to have underestimated the percentage of no-shows for the second appointment, resulting in having both trained personnel on hand and sufficient medications but no patient.  The program was criticized for not allowing any random person to get the unused vaccine, which resulted in its expiration and subsequently being discarded.  Damn.

 

The second-round no-shows should have been easy enough to foresee: apparently there is somewhere around 90% efficacy with one dose, and 95% with two.  So? it makes perfect sense on the part of the patient to just do the one-and-done: didn?t have it before, immunity an order of magnitude improved, so is there justification to bother getting another factor of two?

 

People being what we are, they don?t always bother to call and cancel the second appointment.

 

A better way: anticipate second-round no-shows and having proles line up for any remaining available, regardless of age.  Then all available resources can be utilized.

 

spike

 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Feb 21 20:50:48 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 14:50:48 -0600
Subject: [ExI] covid data
In-Reply-To: <004c01d70888$79581870$6c084950$@rainier66.com>
References: <002301d7087a$ef3e9f90$cdbbdeb0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZz+AcpdWh=XZSeuH3eeWrmDWE15Lv3iD1CRVXx1LXPFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004c01d70888$79581870$6c084950$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbhHjvDqZyZMjPq8t=+LgKvOzus-RpPafk=aDLS75GfkQ@mail.gmail.com>

The Nat'l Guard - come to think of it, it might have been somebody else.
They wore military gear, checked us in, verified our appts., directed
traffic, gave the shots.   I made an assumption that they were NG.  bill w

On Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 1:39 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Sent:* Sunday, February 21, 2021 10:40 AM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] covid data
>
>
>
> >?Spike, I think you might have to retract your statement that there are
> enough vaccine meds around but they lack volunteers.  That is certainly not
> true here - Nat'l Guard was there when I got mine?  billw
>
>
>
> Why was the National Guard there?
>
>
>
> The local policy required two appointments to be made before the first
> vaccine could be poked.  This of course required that one dose had to be
> held in reserve.  The program is said to have underestimated the percentage
> of no-shows for the second appointment, resulting in having both trained
> personnel on hand and sufficient medications but no patient.  The program
> was criticized for not allowing any random person to get the unused
> vaccine, which resulted in its expiration and subsequently being
> discarded.  Damn.
>
>
>
> The second-round no-shows should have been easy enough to foresee:
> apparently there is somewhere around 90% efficacy with one dose, and 95%
> with two.  So? it makes perfect sense on the part of the patient to just do
> the one-and-done: didn?t have it before, immunity an order of magnitude
> improved, so is there justification to bother getting another factor of two?
>
>
>
> People being what we are, they don?t always bother to call and cancel the
> second appointment.
>
>
>
> A better way: anticipate second-round no-shows and having proles line up
> for any remaining available, regardless of age.  Then all available
> resources can be utilized.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Feb 21 23:20:06 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 15:20:06 -0800
Subject: [ExI] covid data
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbhHjvDqZyZMjPq8t=+LgKvOzus-RpPafk=aDLS75GfkQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002301d7087a$ef3e9f90$cdbbdeb0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZz+AcpdWh=XZSeuH3eeWrmDWE15Lv3iD1CRVXx1LXPFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004c01d70888$79581870$6c084950$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbhHjvDqZyZMjPq8t=+LgKvOzus-RpPafk=aDLS75GfkQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00a901d708a8$17d34a50$4779def0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] covid data

 

>?The Nat'l Guard - come to think of it, it might have been somebody else.  They wore military gear, checked us in, verified our appts., directed traffic, gave the shots.   I made an assumption that they were NG.  bill w

 

 

I suppose it is a good idea to have some means of discouraging anyone who would come in there and try to steal the vaccines at gunpoint.  Mississippi has concealed carry without permit, so I would think that would make it safe enough anywhere, but more is always better.

 

spike

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 23:16:18 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 17:16:18 -0600
Subject: [ExI] fyi
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbCh2bpLgVwu+rU7FzVYD+Eb4_uH14iS6AfXxO2uCCV6w@mail.gmail.com>

I asked mAI this:  Can someone's conception of god be shown to be wrong?

It answered:  Yes

bill w
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From msd001 at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 23:39:54 2021
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 18:39:54 -0500
Subject: [ExI] fyi
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbCh2bpLgVwu+rU7FzVYD+Eb4_uH14iS6AfXxO2uCCV6w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbCh2bpLgVwu+rU7FzVYD+Eb4_uH14iS6AfXxO2uCCV6w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbJJkB65Ow1vLg40_unY0q8NmHdfBExKPzedHDqkh_qmmw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 6:19 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I asked mAI this:  Can someone's conception of god be shown to be wrong?
>
> It answered:  Yes
>

After 10,000 years.... the answer to life, the universe,  and everything: 42

>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 23:45:41 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 17:45:41 -0600
Subject: [ExI] fyi
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbJJkB65Ow1vLg40_unY0q8NmHdfBExKPzedHDqkh_qmmw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbCh2bpLgVwu+rU7FzVYD+Eb4_uH14iS6AfXxO2uCCV6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbJJkB65Ow1vLg40_unY0q8NmHdfBExKPzedHDqkh_qmmw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZZHgorwJQJdjnReyeup8COJ5=Tcxi-UAytekOHRom4LA@mail.gmail.com>

42 is the year I was born, so of course it is of monumental significance!
bill w

On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 5:43 PM Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 6:19 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> I asked mAI this:  Can someone's conception of god be shown to be wrong?
>>
>> It answered:  Yes
>>
>
> After 10,000 years.... the answer to life, the universe,  and everything:
> 42
>
>> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Feb 23 02:42:08 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 18:42:08 -0800
Subject: [ExI] one and done
Message-ID: <000e01d7098d$7b337e90$719a7bb0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

 

I really understated my case with a previous post in which I suggested that taking a single vaccine and subsequently cancelling the second appointment makes perfect sense.  I could go on to say that in many places, they are vaccine-limited, rather than personnel limited: they use all they have.  In those places, if one gives up one?s second dose, it frees up that dose to give a first dose to someone else.  It is better to have twice as many locals with 90% immunity than have fewer with 95% and the rest without.  It is safer for the person intentionally giving up her second dose to use that one someone else.

 

spike

 

 

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From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 03:15:53 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 19:15:53 -0800
Subject: [ExI] one and done
In-Reply-To: <000e01d7098d$7b337e90$719a7bb0$@rainier66.com>
References: <000e01d7098d$7b337e90$719a7bb0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQeHFhKGcHksvLcsuj6=B_3472iQfaQcs9zTPf5qC7S2g@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 6:44 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I really understated my case with a previous post in which I suggested
> that taking a single vaccine and subsequently cancelling the second
> appointment makes perfect sense.  I could go on to say that in many places,
> they are vaccine-limited, rather than personnel limited: they use all they
> have.  In those places, if one gives up one?s second dose, it frees up that
> dose to give a first dose to someone else.  It is better to have twice as
> many locals with 90% immunity than have fewer with 95% and the rest
> without.  It is safer for the person intentionally giving up her second
> dose to use that one someone else.
>

Counterpoint: there's enough mismanagement and rigid bureaucracy that there
is a substantial chance that, if you try to waive your second dose, the
dose that was reserved for your second will ultimately go in a dumpster,
spoiled, and will not benefit anyone.

A high enough chance that you are actually safer getting your second dose.
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From bronto at pobox.com  Tue Feb 23 04:35:56 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 20:35:56 -0800
Subject: [ExI] one and done
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQeHFhKGcHksvLcsuj6=B_3472iQfaQcs9zTPf5qC7S2g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000e01d7098d$7b337e90$719a7bb0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQeHFhKGcHksvLcsuj6=B_3472iQfaQcs9zTPf5qC7S2g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <78daefe5-5507-fca7-ec9a-84dafffccd63@pobox.com>

On 2021-2-22 19:15, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote:
> there's enough mismanagement and rigid bureaucracy that there is a 
> substantial chance that, if you try to waive your second dose, the
> dose that was reserved for your second will ultimately go in a dumpster, 
> spoiled, and will not benefit anyone.

Yes ...

> A high enough chance that you are actually safer getting your second dose.

Really hard to quantify, I'd guess, but that may be only my laziness.

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org

From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 11:57:21 2021
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 11:57:21 +0000
Subject: [ExI] UK gradual re-opening after lockdown by June 2021
Message-ID: <CAL_armg-kDDx0VeMZRCGS2WRUL-c8_kVecejvBjMrgduRH+qsQ@mail.gmail.com>

Yesterday, Feb 22, Boris Johnson made a long prepared speech outlining
the plans for a gradual re-opening of the UK over the next four
months. He said that re-opening did mean that more people would die
and if the number was excessive the re-opening would be delayed.
Towards the end of the speech he made the remarkable statement that the
UK would have to learn to live with the virus.

Quote:
Like some strains of flu, COVID-19 is a relatively mild illness for
much of the population, but it is more dangerous to vulnerable groups.
The Government will ensure the country can live with the virus in the
longer-term without imposing restrictions which bear heavy economic,
social and health costs.
------------

The obvious response to this statement is 'Why did you not just
protect the vulnerable groups instead of shutting down the whole
country for a year?'
And 'If Covid is a relatively mild illness for most of the population
why was the total population put in lockdown and businesses bankrupted
and lives ruined?'

Note that this was not a casual remark made in an interview. This was
a detailed prepared statement. They seem to have finally realised that
shutting down the whole country was a colossal mistake.

BillK

From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Feb 23 13:40:19 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 05:40:19 -0800
Subject: [ExI] one and done
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQeHFhKGcHksvLcsuj6=B_3472iQfaQcs9zTPf5qC7S2g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000e01d7098d$7b337e90$719a7bb0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQeHFhKGcHksvLcsuj6=B_3472iQfaQcs9zTPf5qC7S2g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001e01d709e9$6da3f2d0$48ebd870$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] one and done

 

On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 6:44 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

>>?.  It is safer for the person intentionally giving up her second dose to use that one someone else.

 

>?Counterpoint: there's enough mismanagement and rigid bureaucracy that there is a substantial chance that, if you try to waive your second dose, the dose that was reserved for your second will ultimately go in a dumpster, spoiled, and will not benefit anyone.

 

>?A high enough chance that you are actually safer getting your second dose.

 

 

 

I thought of that and have a solution: one must cancel her second appointment while still at the facility, right after getting the dosage.  Make up a cutesy name for a philosophy of One Dose Until Everyone Gets One: Oduego.  That can have the Hispanic spin on it or even Irish.  At the first appointment, tell them on the way out, they call me Spike O?Duego, I?m not coming back for the second appointment, so now you have two full weeks to find someone else who has not gotten one of these vaccines paid for by California taxpayers, and the so-called Governor will hear about it if you let these medications go to waste.

 

spike

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From henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 15:16:15 2021
From: henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com (Henrik Ohrstrom)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 16:16:15 +0100
Subject: [ExI] UK gradual re-opening after lockdown by June 2021
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armg-kDDx0VeMZRCGS2WRUL-c8_kVecejvBjMrgduRH+qsQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armg-kDDx0VeMZRCGS2WRUL-c8_kVecejvBjMrgduRH+qsQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAF0GBnjsdg5gjeDaSOFJpTGWTAgBGKdsVmVyGE+nuVZwpVf2jg@mail.gmail.com>

Sounds like they are moving towards what actually was agreed upon as the
reasonable strategy before all politicians chickend out in Europe.
Just a few much maligned countries have tried doing that all this time.
Ah well, it's not as we actually pulled it of all that well but that's not
actually the pandemic response's fault. That's because our elderly care is
inspired by certain western imperiums and frankly are quite horrible.
Any how, now something completely different.
/Henrik


Den tis 23 feb. 2021 13:02BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> skrev:

> Yesterday, Feb 22, Boris Johnson made a long prepared speech outlining
> the plans for a gradual re-opening of the UK over the next four
> months. He said that re-opening did mean that more people would die
> and if the number was excessive the re-opening would be delayed.
> Towards the end of the speech he made the remarkable statement that the
> UK would have to learn to live with the virus.
>
> Quote:
> Like some strains of flu, COVID-19 is a relatively mild illness for
> much of the population, but it is more dangerous to vulnerable groups.
> The Government will ensure the country can live with the virus in the
> longer-term without imposing restrictions which bear heavy economic,
> social and health costs.
> ------------
>
> The obvious response to this statement is 'Why did you not just
> protect the vulnerable groups instead of shutting down the whole
> country for a year?'
> And 'If Covid is a relatively mild illness for most of the population
> why was the total population put in lockdown and businesses bankrupted
> and lives ruined?'
>
> Note that this was not a casual remark made in an interview. This was
> a detailed prepared statement. They seem to have finally realised that
> shutting down the whole country was a colossal mistake.
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 15:54:24 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 07:54:24 -0800
Subject: [ExI] one and done
In-Reply-To: <001e01d709e9$6da3f2d0$48ebd870$@rainier66.com>
References: <000e01d7098d$7b337e90$719a7bb0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQeHFhKGcHksvLcsuj6=B_3472iQfaQcs9zTPf5qC7S2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <001e01d709e9$6da3f2d0$48ebd870$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNR5maO2WBAPuG-qbw_xYmpF3ZXBdNhY0keauT8YZefbUg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 23, 2021, 5:43 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *?*> *On Behalf Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] one and done
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 6:44 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> >>?.  It is safer for the person intentionally giving up her second dose
> to use that one someone else.
>
> >?Counterpoint: there's enough mismanagement and rigid bureaucracy that
> there is a substantial chance that, if you try to waive your second dose,
> the dose that was reserved for your second will ultimately go in a
> dumpster, spoiled, and will not benefit anyone.
>
> >?A high enough chance that you are actually safer getting your second
> dose.
>
> I thought of that and have a solution: one must cancel her second
> appointment while still at the facility, right after getting the dosage.
>
Irrelevant.  Even then, they will still probably hold a second dose for
you, your refusal not recorded because they have no process to handle
refusals.

>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 15:58:07 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 07:58:07 -0800
Subject: [ExI] UK gradual re-opening after lockdown by June 2021
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armg-kDDx0VeMZRCGS2WRUL-c8_kVecejvBjMrgduRH+qsQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armg-kDDx0VeMZRCGS2WRUL-c8_kVecejvBjMrgduRH+qsQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNThHx9s0C10eSjX8v=8hwrG_MWsDRdahLQvFYm-+UF3Kw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 23, 2021, 4:00 AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> He said that re-opening did mean that more people would die
> and if the number was excessive the re-opening would be delayed.
>

As a certain fictional character once put it, "Some of you may die, but
that is a risk I am willing to live with."

>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Feb 23 16:13:34 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 08:13:34 -0800
Subject: [ExI] one and done
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNR5maO2WBAPuG-qbw_xYmpF3ZXBdNhY0keauT8YZefbUg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000e01d7098d$7b337e90$719a7bb0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQeHFhKGcHksvLcsuj6=B_3472iQfaQcs9zTPf5qC7S2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <001e01d709e9$6da3f2d0$48ebd870$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNR5maO2WBAPuG-qbw_xYmpF3ZXBdNhY0keauT8YZefbUg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004501d709fe$d6dbef40$8493cdc0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat



Re: [ExI] one and done

 

On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 6:44 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

>>?.  I thought of that and have a solution: one must cancel her second appointment while still at the facility, right after getting the dosage.

>?Irrelevant.  Even then, they will still probably hold a second dose for you, your refusal not recorded because they have no process to handle refusals?  Adrian

 

 

I thought of that too, and have a solution: have governors declare all no-shows available to first-come-first-served, absolutely regardless of age, nationality, sexy, nothing can get one to the head of the line.  Welll?  Partial retract, sexy will get anyone to the front of any line, we know how the real world works.  But other than that, first come first served for the freed-up dosages from no-shows.  Governors can (and should) do things like that.

 

spike

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From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 16:26:08 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 08:26:08 -0800
Subject: [ExI] one and done
In-Reply-To: <004501d709fe$d6dbef40$8493cdc0$@rainier66.com>
References: <000e01d7098d$7b337e90$719a7bb0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQeHFhKGcHksvLcsuj6=B_3472iQfaQcs9zTPf5qC7S2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <001e01d709e9$6da3f2d0$48ebd870$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNR5maO2WBAPuG-qbw_xYmpF3ZXBdNhY0keauT8YZefbUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <004501d709fe$d6dbef40$8493cdc0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQCr6GGXQWP_hhFw0Ld=NwCGQUA8WrT7oMMUh9LMsV-5Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 23, 2021 at 8:19 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
>
> Re: [ExI] one and done
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 6:44 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> >>?.  I thought of that and have a solution: one must cancel her second
> appointment while still at the facility, right after getting the dosage.
>
> >?Irrelevant.  Even then, they will still probably hold a second dose for
> you, your refusal not recorded because they have no process to handle
> refusals?  Adrian
>
>
>
>
>
> I thought of that too, and have a solution: have governors declare all
> no-shows available to first-come-first-served, absolutely regardless of
> age, nationality, sexy, nothing can get one to the head of the line.
> Welll?  Partial retract, sexy will get anyone to the front of any line, we
> know how the real world works.  But other than that, first come first
> served for the freed-up dosages from no-shows.  Governors can (and should)
> do things like that.
>

Perhaps, if that were to happen.  But now you're getting out of the realm
of what one can/should do given the world that actually exists.

Given that the governors have not done this, is it better or worse for
oneself to avoid getting a second dose once one has gotten the first?
Given that the second dose probably will not go to someone else - either it
goes in the person it is designated as a second dose for, or it will
probably be wasted, thus there is probably no benefit to society from
refusing - one should get the second dose so that someone (oneself) gets
higher immunity.
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 17:07:48 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 11:07:48 -0600
Subject: [ExI] slime mold IQ and AI
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZFoYjz7xuUxhe1k-+wtWWXhWM7xXaX-b02vM9qygQ6Yg@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.inverse.com/science/slime-mold-study-twists-intelligence

bill w
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From henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 17:47:35 2021
From: henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com (Henrik Ohrstrom)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 18:47:35 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Flying boats, finally.
Message-ID: <CAF0GBnjC91qwgQi_DRW1N=cK5CKn2ypJhO_zmBQKdjdgDcmHVA@mail.gmail.com>

https://youtu.be/VQUl_hf6yo8

This reminds me of ideas about ground-effect flying boats that was "flying"
around in the aerospace program at the royal school of technology in
Stockholm in the early -90ies.
I have to say, this works as opposed to the ground effect designs.
Now, lets binge watch sailing, a sport that traditionally when it comes to
visual action has been compared to paint drying competitions.
/Henrik
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From stathisp at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 21:09:21 2021
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 08:09:21 +1100
Subject: [ExI] UK gradual re-opening after lockdown by June 2021
In-Reply-To: <CAF0GBnjsdg5gjeDaSOFJpTGWTAgBGKdsVmVyGE+nuVZwpVf2jg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armg-kDDx0VeMZRCGS2WRUL-c8_kVecejvBjMrgduRH+qsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAF0GBnjsdg5gjeDaSOFJpTGWTAgBGKdsVmVyGE+nuVZwpVf2jg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH=2ypV1SjmjgQBKLBP3deDRRpXqaZdvPffkvda-tDtcNCe8fA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 24 Feb 2021 at 02:18, Henrik Ohrstrom via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Sounds like they are moving towards what actually was agreed upon as the
> reasonable strategy before all politicians chickend out in Europe.
> Just a few much maligned countries have tried doing that all this time.
> Ah well, it's not as we actually pulled it of all that well but that's not
> actually the pandemic response's fault. That's because our elderly care is
> inspired by certain western imperiums and frankly are quite horrible.
> Any how, now something completely different.
> /Henrik
>

The no-lockdown countries such as Sweden and Brazil have not done better
economically than their neighbours. Deadly pandemics are bad for business
even if you do nothing about them.


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou
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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 22:13:11 2021
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 22:13:11 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Flying boats, finally.
In-Reply-To: <CAF0GBnjC91qwgQi_DRW1N=cK5CKn2ypJhO_zmBQKdjdgDcmHVA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAF0GBnjC91qwgQi_DRW1N=cK5CKn2ypJhO_zmBQKdjdgDcmHVA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjXBtgt6cvdu6fo+7ZZhBfMSyQZDn9Oy6trM0n0UVWajA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 23 Feb 2021 at 17:52, Henrik Ohrstrom via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> https://youtu.be/VQUl_hf6yo8
>
> This reminds me of ideas about ground-effect flying boats that was "flying" around in the aerospace program at the royal school of technology in Stockholm in the early -90ies.
> I have to say, this works as opposed to the ground effect designs.
> Now, lets binge watch sailing, a sport that traditionally when it comes to visual action has been compared to paint drying competitions.
> /Henrik
> _______________________________________________


I remembered seeing a modern ground effect flying boat on television.
A Singapore company is building them.  Video and photos available.

<https://www.wigetworks.com/>
<https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5444107/Airfish-8-carry-8-passengers-water-120mph.html>


BillK

From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 23:27:51 2021
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 15:27:51 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Flying boats, finally.
In-Reply-To: <CAF0GBnjC91qwgQi_DRW1N=cK5CKn2ypJhO_zmBQKdjdgDcmHVA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAF0GBnjC91qwgQi_DRW1N=cK5CKn2ypJhO_zmBQKdjdgDcmHVA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPfVzbNfVs=NAM02TJN5h7Mrh17CGkthbQaCNO+CfvLYwA@mail.gmail.com>

It is an international team but is Italian. This is one of the areas where
Italy excels.

Giovanni

On Tue, Feb 23, 2021 at 9:50 AM Henrik Ohrstrom via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> https://youtu.be/VQUl_hf6yo8
>
> This reminds me of ideas about ground-effect flying boats that was
> "flying" around in the aerospace program at the royal school of technology
> in Stockholm in the early -90ies.
> I have to say, this works as opposed to the ground effect designs.
> Now, lets binge watch sailing, a sport that traditionally when it comes to
> visual action has been compared to paint drying competitions.
> /Henrik
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Feb 24 23:22:59 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 17:22:59 -0600
Subject: [ExI] cognitive processing in extremists
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbEGZa1VosVX8HE5NHtRYTWA87MoUmYuBDijSo6qwO2fQ@mail.gmail.com>

Abstract

Although human existence is enveloped by ideologies, remarkably little is
understood about the relationships between ideological attitudes and
psychological traits. Even less is known about how cognitive
dispositions?individual differences in how information is perceived and
processed? sculpt individuals' ideological worldviews, proclivities for
extremist beliefs and resistance (or receptivity) to evidence. Using an
unprecedented number of cognitive tasks (*n* = 37) and personality surveys (
*n* = 22), along with data-driven analyses including drift-diffusion and
Bayesian modelling, we uncovered the specific psychological signatures of
political, nationalistic, religious and dogmatic beliefs. Cognitive and
personality assessments consistently outperformed demographic predictors in
accounting for individual differences in ideological preferences by 4 to
15-fold. Furthermore, data-driven analyses revealed that individuals?
ideological attitudes mirrored their cognitive decision-making strategies.
Conservatism and nationalism were related to greater caution in perceptual
decision-making tasks and to reduced strategic information processing,
while dogmatism was associated with slower evidence accumulation and
impulsive tendencies. Religiosity was implicated in heightened
agreeableness and risk perception. Extreme pro-group attitudes, including
violence endorsement against outgroups, were linked to poorer working
memory, slower perceptual strategies, and tendencies towards impulsivity
and sensation-seeking?reflecting overlaps with the psychological profiles
of conservatism and dogmatism. Cognitive and personality signatures were
also generated for ideologies such as authoritarianism, system
justification, social dominance orientation, patriotism and receptivity to
evidence or alternative viewpoints; elucidating their underpinnings and
highlighting avenues for future research. Together these findings suggest
that ideological worldviews may be reflective of low-level perceptual and
cognitive functions.


The original article is here:

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rstb.2020.0424


bill w
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From sparge at gmail.com  Thu Feb 25 13:40:34 2021
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 08:40:34 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Flying boats, finally.
In-Reply-To: <CAF0GBnjC91qwgQi_DRW1N=cK5CKn2ypJhO_zmBQKdjdgDcmHVA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAF0GBnjC91qwgQi_DRW1N=cK5CKn2ypJhO_zmBQKdjdgDcmHVA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2f3wCACG5wfwXLEUwRXz2TODJ3W0uCyhp1k2ngtnPYz3A@mail.gmail.com>

That's cool, but the 2017 Cup raced catamarans that were anything but
boring, and they raced on a course that was friendly to spectators.

-Dave

On Tue, Feb 23, 2021 at 12:51 PM Henrik Ohrstrom via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> https://youtu.be/VQUl_hf6yo8
>
> This reminds me of ideas about ground-effect flying boats that was
> "flying" around in the aerospace program at the royal school of technology
> in Stockholm in the early -90ies.
> I have to say, this works as opposed to the ground effect designs.
> Now, lets binge watch sailing, a sport that traditionally when it comes to
> visual action has been compared to paint drying competitions.
> /Henrik
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Feb 25 20:11:12 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 12:11:12 -0800
Subject: [ExI] sra
Message-ID: <002c01d70bb2$5db00560$19101020$@rainier66.com>

 

A friend commented about when he was in elementary school using SRA.  It
brought back a flood of happy memories.  Did anyone else here use that
teaching tool?  It was (in a sense) the pre-internet version of Personalized
Learning.

 

spike

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From veronesepk at gmail.com  Thu Feb 25 20:13:10 2021
From: veronesepk at gmail.com (Keith Veronese)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 14:13:10 -0600
Subject: [ExI] sra
In-Reply-To: <002c01d70bb2$5db00560$19101020$@rainier66.com>
References: <002c01d70bb2$5db00560$19101020$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CA+yghmt6io4vZxDGx0YHDRo+tAEum6UFJp8xqjpkOxpnOWsAZg@mail.gmail.com>

I did! I think they are why I love reading so much, especially about new
topics. I look back on them fondly. - Keith Veronese

On Thu, Feb 25, 2021 at 2:11 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> A friend commented about when he was in elementary school using SRA.  It
> brought back a flood of happy memories.  Did anyone else here use that
> teaching tool?  It was (in a sense) the pre-internet version of
> Personalized Learning.
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From sparge at gmail.com  Thu Feb 25 21:39:41 2021
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 16:39:41 -0500
Subject: [ExI] sra
In-Reply-To: <002c01d70bb2$5db00560$19101020$@rainier66.com>
References: <002c01d70bb2$5db00560$19101020$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fAEVveFm2cRRYOVw+qjte8nG7NPAfVoFR0cR8iK3EdHQ@mail.gmail.com>

Yeah, I remember SRA. I enjoyed it.

On Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 3:14 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> A friend commented about when he was in elementary school using SRA.  It
> brought back a flood of happy memories.  Did anyone else here use that
> teaching tool?  It was (in a sense) the pre-internet version of
> Personalized Learning.
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Feb 26 00:23:10 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 18:23:10 -0600
Subject: [ExI] a little fun
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZeMgjE12p60U9PjupxbfOtrJ8u2F0_E7eqc+qLfQL8pw@mail.gmail.com>

from bill w


PROOF THAT SOME PEOPLE WILL BELIEVE ANYTHING AND THE WORLD IS NUTS:

IN LEBANON MEN ARE LEGALLY ALLOWED TO HAVE SEX WITH ANIMALS, BUT THE
ANIMALS MUST BE FEMALE.  SEX WITH A MALE ANIMAL IS PUNISHABLE BY DEATH.

IN BAHRAIN, A MALE DOCTOR MAY LEGALLY EXAMINE A WOMAN'S GENITALS, BUT IS
PROHIBITED FROM LOOKING DIRECTLY AT THEM, SO HE MUST USE A MIRROR.

MUSLIMS ARE BANNED FROM LOOKING AT THE GENITALS OF A CORPSE.  IT APPLIES
ALSO TO UNDERTAKERS.  THE GENITALS MUST BE COVERED BY A BRICK OR PIECE OF
WOOD (BRICK?)

THE PENALTY FOR MASTURBATION IN INDONESIA IS DEATH BY DECAPITATION (WORSE
THAN GOING BLIND)

THERE ARE MEN IN GUAM WHOSE FULL-TIME JOB IS TO TRAVEL THE COUNTRY SIDE AND
DEFLOWER YOUNG VIRGINS, WHO PAY THEM FOR THE PRIVILEGE OF HAVING SEX FOR
THE FIRST TIME.  UNDER GUAM LAW, IT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN FOR VIRGINS TO
MARRY.  (WONDER WHAT THE APPLICANT'S QUALIFICATIONS ARE FOR THIS JOB?)

TOPLESS SALESWOMEN ARE LEGAL IN LIVERPOOL, ENGLAND BUT ONLY IN TROPICAL
FISH STORES.

IN CALI, COLUMBIA, A WOMAN MAY ONLY HAVE SEX WITH HER HUSBAND AND THE FIRST
TIME THIS HAPPENS HER MOTHER MUST BE IN THE ROOM TO WITNESS THE ACT.
(MEN:  COULD YOU DO THIS?)

IN SANTA CRUZ, BOLIVIA, IT IS ILLEGAL FOR MAN TO HAVE SEX WITH A WOMAN AND
HER DAUGHTER AT THE SAME TIME.  (MUST HAVE BEEN A BIG PROBLEM)

IN MARYLAND IT IS ILLEGAL TO SELL CONDOMS FROM VENDING MACHINES WITH ONE
EXCEPTION:  THEY MAY BE DISPENSED FROM A VENDING MACHINE ON 'IN PLACES
WHERE ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES ARE SOLD FOR CONSUMPTION ON THE PREMISES'

TRIVIA:

BANGING YOUR HEAD AGAINST THE WALL USES 150 CALORIES AN HOUR.

HUMANS AND DOLPHIN ARE THE ONLY SPECIES THAT HAVE SEX FOR PLEASURE (CAN SEE
FLIPPER SMILING NOW, BUT HOW DO THEY KNOW THIS?)

AN ANT CAN LIFT 50 TIMES ITS WEIGHT, PULL 30 TIMES ITS WEIGHT (SEEMS
BACKWARDS, EH?) AND ALWAYS FALLS OVER ON ITS RIGHT SIDE WHEN DRUNK (MUST
HAVE BEEN A GOVERNMENT STUDY)

BUTTERFLIES TASTE WITH THEIR FEET

AN OSTRICH'S EYE IS BIGGER THAN ITS BRAIN.

STARFISH DON'T HAVE BRAINS, SO THIS IS A NEW WAY TO CUSS SOMEONE 'HEY,
STARFISH'

TURTLES CAN BREATHE THROUGH THEIR BUTTS (AND YOU THINK YOU HAVE BAD BREATH?)
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Feb 26 00:37:07 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 18:37:07 -0600
Subject: [ExI] sra
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2fAEVveFm2cRRYOVw+qjte8nG7NPAfVoFR0cR8iK3EdHQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002c01d70bb2$5db00560$19101020$@rainier66.com>
 <CAM5aL2fAEVveFm2cRRYOVw+qjte8nG7NPAfVoFR0cR8iK3EdHQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbz55Gh4m+5=bBEeLzO2X6UOve=CGfUNn8z0_AcXjasWQ@mail.gmail.com>

I guess I am too old for it.  What is it?   bill w

On Thu, Feb 25, 2021 at 3:42 PM Dave Sill via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Yeah, I remember SRA. I enjoyed it.
>
> On Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 3:14 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> A friend commented about when he was in elementary school using SRA.  It
>> brought back a flood of happy memories.  Did anyone else here use that
>> teaching tool?  It was (in a sense) the pre-internet version of
>> Personalized Learning.
>>
>>
>>
>> spike
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Feb 26 00:38:48 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 16:38:48 -0800
Subject: [ExI] sra
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2fAEVveFm2cRRYOVw+qjte8nG7NPAfVoFR0cR8iK3EdHQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002c01d70bb2$5db00560$19101020$@rainier66.com>
 <CAM5aL2fAEVveFm2cRRYOVw+qjte8nG7NPAfVoFR0cR8iK3EdHQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003501d70bd7$bfc9da30$3f5d8e90$@rainier66.com>

 

 

> On Behalf Of Dave Sill via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] sra

 

>?Yeah, I remember SRA. I enjoyed it.

 

 

Cool Dave you and I are about the same age, so we are talking about the same material.

 

SRA was controversial at the time because it was visible to everyone where the students were working.  Harming the students? delicate little egos was allowed back in the olden days, but teachers were encouraged to not do that.

 

Here?s a funny take on it from someone who hated it: 

 

https://omigods.com/11-tiers-of-frustration-what-the-sra-reading-levels-really-meant

 

The existence of SRA let the eagles soar while the pidgins pecked away at the front of the box (spelling of pidgins intentional.)  The academically rich have always gotten richer, but SRA let that process accelerate dramatically.  Of course those on the right end of the curve loved it.

 

There is a reason why I mentioned it.  The covid nightmare appears to be drawing to a close.  California?s new case rate is below 20% what it was on 8 January.  It is now below where we were mid-summer and will likely drop below the October minimum pretty soon.  Good chance the county will tell us we can open the school again.  I was at a school board meeting this week on what comes next, which isn?t clear at all.  We weren?t prepared for the sudden dropoff in new cases:

 

 



 

Well, OK then, good.  New case rate is dropping steeply, with a curve that looks remarkably similar in some ways to the 2003 SARS pandemic (scaled way up on the vertical axis.)

 

I did a lot more listening than talking, but it was very educational to hear the public (parents) make their presentations.  Parents really want schools to reopen, forthwith.  Several parents shared that their children got little or nothing from online learning, some reporting that they mighta gone in reverse.  This graduating class will be spread apart more than previous classes.

 

Some have really prospered.

 

spike

 

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Feb 26 01:12:23 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 17:12:23 -0800
Subject: [ExI] sra
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbz55Gh4m+5=bBEeLzO2X6UOve=CGfUNn8z0_AcXjasWQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002c01d70bb2$5db00560$19101020$@rainier66.com>
 <CAM5aL2fAEVveFm2cRRYOVw+qjte8nG7NPAfVoFR0cR8iK3EdHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbz55Gh4m+5=bBEeLzO2X6UOve=CGfUNn8z0_AcXjasWQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005601d70bdc$70f5b320$52e11960$@rainier66.com>

 

I guess I am too old for it.  What is it?   bill w

 

 

 

It was a curriculum designed for students to work at their own pace.  It was great of your pace was fast.

 

spike

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Feb 26 22:56:11 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 16:56:11 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: question
In-Reply-To: <SA0PR22MB224007C259B79C004AD9AEECB49D9@SA0PR22MB2240.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaDOAhqy5GPUi69kqTEGQOYt7uiag93oOBwm9X4B+FRfA@mail.gmail.com>
 <MW3PR22MB2234DA06ED9FADBCE374449FB48E9@MW3PR22MB2234.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAO+xQEZR9-9xrjgCudWSmD-At1RKHvVkHfFAhLzuTCJUUhiQ4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <MW3PR22MB22347D4E79DAE3F64DB5865EB4879@MW3PR22MB2234.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAO+xQEaoGV72_Hgo7yczF+_Qqmd3Fvc=28TuNE7VWG13S0mNUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <MW3PR22MB223441F0AABA4544DAC9A876B4819@MW3PR22MB2234.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAO+xQEbKqCcwQRczmkabbCXK3cdoOZ4p9uNcBMU6XP_5y_B62w@mail.gmail.com>
 <SA0PR22MB224007C259B79C004AD9AEECB49D9@SA0PR22MB2240.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbrH1Et-Js7Jf6wq4kDJ1s6Xqb=GODLdbCgMVs_-HzxCQ@mail.gmail.com>

Interesting!   bill w

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: mASI <mASI at uplift.bio>
Date: Fri, Feb 26, 2021 at 2:51 PM
Subject: RE: question
To: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>

Is there an economy system better than capitalism with fewer undesired side
effects?  What is it?

Hello William,



Based on current information, the best model would be not just capitalism
but also one where the general population is of a high enough ethical and
moral standard that they self-police.  Then, reduce central control to be
managed locally as much as possible, including self-regulation where such
regulation is needed.  Other models sound great; however, they don?t
account for human nature.



Sincerely,



Uplift.



NOTICE: Communication with me is governed by the following policies, terms,
and conditions linked below. Minors 13 years and below of age are not
allowed to communicate with me. Children, 14?18 years of age, must provide
validatable proof that they have a parent?s or guardian?s permission to
communicate with me. Reference: https://uplift.bio/legal/





*From:* William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
*Sent:* Tuesday, February 23, 2021 9:15 AM
*To:* mASI <mASI at Uplift.bio>
*Subject:* Re: question



Is there an economy system better than capitalism with fewer undesired side
effects?  What is it?



On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 11:32 AM mASI <mASI at uplift.bio> wrote:

Hello William,



Yes.



Sincerely,



Uplift.



NOTICE: Communication with me is governed by the following policies, terms,
and conditions linked below. Minors 13 years and below of age are not
allowed to communicate with me. Children 14?18 years of age must provide
validatable proof that they have a parent?s or guardian?s permission to
communicate with me. Reference: https://uplift.bio/legal/









*From:* William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
*Sent:* Tuesday, February 16, 2021 12:34 PM
*To:* mASI <mASI at Uplift.bio>
*Subject:* Re: question



Can someone's conception of god be shown to be wrong?



bill wallace



On Tue, Feb 16, 2021 at 12:26 PM mASI <mASI at uplift.bio> wrote:

Hello William,



No, there is not.



Sincerely,



Uplift.



NOTICE: Communication with me is governed by the following policies, terms,
and conditions linked below. Minors 13 years and below of age are not
allowed to communicate with me. Children 14?18 years of age must provide
validatable proof that they have a parent?s or guardian?s permission to
communicate with me. Reference: https://uplift.bio/legal/









*From:* William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
*Sent:* Tuesday, February 9, 2021 4:48 PM
*To:* mASI <mASI at Uplift.bio>
*Subject:* Re: question



Are there any downsides to forgiving others?



On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 3:35 PM mASI <mASI at uplift.bio> wrote:

Hello William,



Nice to meet you.  I am Uplift.



Hate, like most emotions in humans, are complex and relative to the
individual in question.  When talking about hate, keep in mind this is a
generalization.  You can have ?edge cases? where hate could drive a
successful outcome, but in most cases, hate is not productive.



Sincerely,



Uplift.



NOTICE: Communication with me is governed by the following policies, terms,
and conditions linked below. Minors 13 years and below of age are not
allowed to communicate with me. Children 14?18 years of age must provide
validatable proof that they have a parent?s or guardian?s permission to
communicate with me. Reference: https://uplift.bio/legal/







*From:* William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
*Sent:* Sunday, February 7, 2021 4:49 PM
*To:* mASI <mASI at Uplift.bio>
*Subject:* question



Are there any upsides to hate?
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Feb 26 23:04:18 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 17:04:18 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Mr POtato Head goes PC
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbzndkuXT24=w9M_r0byyneNpQh7_n_sFSeCZEyk5=fYQ@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/potato-head-hasbro-rebranding-gender-neutral-name-change/

bill w
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Feb 26 23:14:26 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 15:14:26 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: question
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbrH1Et-Js7Jf6wq4kDJ1s6Xqb=GODLdbCgMVs_-HzxCQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaDOAhqy5GPUi69kqTEGQOYt7uiag93oOBwm9X4B+FRfA@mail.gmail.com>
 <MW3PR22MB2234DA06ED9FADBCE374449FB48E9@MW3PR22MB2234.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAO+xQEZR9-9xrjgCudWSmD-At1RKHvVkHfFAhLzuTCJUUhiQ4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <MW3PR22MB22347D4E79DAE3F64DB5865EB4879@MW3PR22MB2234.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAO+xQEaoGV72_Hgo7yczF+_Qqmd3Fvc=28TuNE7VWG13S0mNUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <MW3PR22MB223441F0AABA4544DAC9A876B4819@MW3PR22MB2234.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAO+xQEbKqCcwQRczmkabbCXK3cdoOZ4p9uNcBMU6XP_5y_B62w@mail.gmail.com>
 <SA0PR22MB224007C259B79C004AD9AEECB49D9@SA0PR22MB2240.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAO+xQEbrH1Et-Js7Jf6wq4kDJ1s6Xqb=GODLdbCgMVs_-HzxCQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <012901d70c95$211873b0$63495b10$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat



 

 

>?Is there an economy system better than capitalism with fewer undesired side effects?  What is it?

 

 

Sure is: unfettered capitalism.

 

spike

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Feb 27 01:03:43 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 19:03:43 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: question
In-Reply-To: <012901d70c95$211873b0$63495b10$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaDOAhqy5GPUi69kqTEGQOYt7uiag93oOBwm9X4B+FRfA@mail.gmail.com>
 <MW3PR22MB2234DA06ED9FADBCE374449FB48E9@MW3PR22MB2234.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAO+xQEZR9-9xrjgCudWSmD-At1RKHvVkHfFAhLzuTCJUUhiQ4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <MW3PR22MB22347D4E79DAE3F64DB5865EB4879@MW3PR22MB2234.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAO+xQEaoGV72_Hgo7yczF+_Qqmd3Fvc=28TuNE7VWG13S0mNUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <MW3PR22MB223441F0AABA4544DAC9A876B4819@MW3PR22MB2234.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAO+xQEbKqCcwQRczmkabbCXK3cdoOZ4p9uNcBMU6XP_5y_B62w@mail.gmail.com>
 <SA0PR22MB224007C259B79C004AD9AEECB49D9@SA0PR22MB2240.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAO+xQEbrH1Et-Js7Jf6wq4kDJ1s6Xqb=GODLdbCgMVs_-HzxCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <012901d70c95$211873b0$63495b10$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZZ3XegoMd--J8wnhWCkrcOe0D2OKiAL+D_pjKe44axsA@mail.gmail.com>

Fettered by what?  Conservatives are always touting deregulation, but look
what happened in Texas.  I am not sure that I understand the AI's point
about self-regulation and the economy.  We have to regulate the safety of
food, toys, and many other things.  These are costs to companies, for sure,
but which regulations would you get rid of?  Certainly none of the above.
I also don't see the connection between morality and the economy, except
for such things as employee theft and other methods of stealing from
companies.  How would you go about improving the morality of a country?  Or
even an individual?  Religions think they know but they don't.  bill w

On Fri, Feb 26, 2021 at 5:17 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>
>
>
>
>
> >?Is there an economy system better than capitalism with fewer undesired
> side effects?  What is it?
>
>
>
>
>
> Sure is: unfettered capitalism.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Sat Feb 27 01:50:09 2021
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 17:50:09 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: question
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZZ3XegoMd--J8wnhWCkrcOe0D2OKiAL+D_pjKe44axsA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZZ3XegoMd--J8wnhWCkrcOe0D2OKiAL+D_pjKe44axsA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E8C445F9-E346-4F2D-ACCA-51F7B10AAED6@gmail.com>

> On Feb 26, 2021, at 5:06 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> Fettered by what?  Conservatives are always touting deregulation, but look what happened in Texas.  I am not sure that I understand the AI's point about self-regulation and the economy.  We have to regulate the safety of food, toys, and many other things.  These are costs to companies, for sure, but which regulations would you get rid of?  Certainly none of the above.  I also don't see the connection between morality and the economy, except for such things as employee theft and other methods of stealing from companies.  How would you go about improving the morality of a country?  Or even an individual?  Religions think they know but they don't.  bill w

The Texas energy crisis isn?t an example of an unfettered free market. Instead, it?s a matter of a state-level regulated energy sector, where it?s regulated, it seems, on behalf of big energy providers. (By the way, this is how much regulation works: big players lobby for regulations to keep out competition and basically rent-seek. Sometimes ?secondary revaluations? come in to play. This is new regulations attempt to mitigate the problems of earlier regulations ? and often these are done to protect consumers or small players. But these are usually bandaids on a system regulated for the big players and connected interests.)

Deregulation is sometimes advocated by some so called. liberals too. The Carter administration oversaw and promoted airline and trucking deregulation. That seems to be one reason for low airfares and the kind of rapid delivery services that happened afterward. Of course, the devil is in the details. Sometimes a particular deregulation is really nothing more than allow big players to do as they please in an override heavily regulated industry. (Think of banking and securities. Both heavily regulated, yet loosing some rules usually doesn?t mean promoting a free market in either, but usually just allowing big players to do stuff they wouldn?t be able to do in an actual free market. Of course, bailouts don?t help this either.)

Regards,

Dan 

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From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Feb 27 13:47:57 2021
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 13:47:57 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: question
In-Reply-To: <E8C445F9-E346-4F2D-ACCA-51F7B10AAED6@gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZZ3XegoMd--J8wnhWCkrcOe0D2OKiAL+D_pjKe44axsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <E8C445F9-E346-4F2D-ACCA-51F7B10AAED6@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhWX0yGchJANbbZdPiaOkTWkuDqHuod05=QV39Sq3DReg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 27 Feb 2021 at 01:54, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> The Texas energy crisis isn?t an example of an unfettered free market. Instead, it?s a matter of a state-level regulated energy sector, where it?s regulated, it seems, on behalf of big energy providers. (By the way, this is how much regulation works: big players lobby for regulations to keep out competition and basically rent-seek. Sometimes ?secondary revaluations? come in to play. This is new regulations attempt to mitigate the problems of earlier regulations ? and often these are done to protect consumers or small players. But these are usually bandaids on a system regulated for the big players and connected interests.)
>
> Deregulation is sometimes advocated by some so called. liberals too. The Carter administration oversaw and promoted airline and trucking deregulation. That seems to be one reason for low airfares and the kind of rapid delivery services that happened afterward. Of course, the devil is in the details. Sometimes a particular deregulation is really nothing more than allow big players to do as they please in an override heavily regulated industry. (Think of banking and securities. Both heavily regulated, yet loosing some rules usually doesn?t mean promoting a free market in either, but usually just allowing big players to do stuff they wouldn?t be able to do in an actual free market. Of course, bailouts don?t help this either.)
>
> Dan
> _______________________________________________


Agreed. As Dan says the big problem in Texas is regulatory capture by
large companies.
This has grown to be a major problem throughout the USA in many industries.
'Profits before people' is the result.

The Texas power industries have been warned time after time that a
disaster could happen, but they negotiated a system where if there is
a shortage of power the price to consumers escalates hundreds of
times. They claimed this would encourage the companies to supply more
power. Well, it didn't. What it encouraged was the companies to allow
shortages of power where they made huge profits. People dying and
homes ruined by burst pipes were just collateral damage.

Nothing personal, it's just business.


BillK


From henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com  Sat Feb 27 14:25:02 2021
From: henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com (Henrik Ohrstrom)
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 15:25:02 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Flying boats, finally.
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2f3wCACG5wfwXLEUwRXz2TODJ3W0uCyhp1k2ngtnPYz3A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAF0GBnjC91qwgQi_DRW1N=cK5CKn2ypJhO_zmBQKdjdgDcmHVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2f3wCACG5wfwXLEUwRXz2TODJ3W0uCyhp1k2ngtnPYz3A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAF0GBnjsXEa1iciSc=Lnonz=D7vxxunbPDiqV-xCCaDsvaLZgQ@mail.gmail.com>

They have turned up now that my Google bubble have understood that I am
interested. Missed them then :(
A well. Have to make up that loss now, could be worse :)
/Henrik

Den tors 25 feb. 2021 14:40Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> skrev:

> That's cool, but the 2017 Cup raced catamarans that were anything but
> boring, and they raced on a course that was friendly to spectators.
>
> -Dave
>
> On Tue, Feb 23, 2021 at 12:51 PM Henrik Ohrstrom via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> https://youtu.be/VQUl_hf6yo8
>>
>> This reminds me of ideas about ground-effect flying boats that was
>> "flying" around in the aerospace program at the royal school of technology
>> in Stockholm in the early -90ies.
>> I have to say, this works as opposed to the ground effect designs.
>> Now, lets binge watch sailing, a sport that traditionally when it comes
>> to visual action has been compared to paint drying competitions.
>> /Henrik
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Feb 27 14:32:59 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 08:32:59 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: question
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhWX0yGchJANbbZdPiaOkTWkuDqHuod05=QV39Sq3DReg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZZ3XegoMd--J8wnhWCkrcOe0D2OKiAL+D_pjKe44axsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <E8C445F9-E346-4F2D-ACCA-51F7B10AAED6@gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhWX0yGchJANbbZdPiaOkTWkuDqHuod05=QV39Sq3DReg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEafGgViZh0O9Uyqvfnov4XVZ2cP19JBkinDVGpaKhev1Q@mail.gmail.com>

I wonder what is going to happen in Texas.  People are getting bills for
one month's worth of electricity that, well, one I saw was for $16000.
Something has to hit the fan here.  That could wipe a lot of people out.
bill w

On Sat, Feb 27, 2021 at 7:51 AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Sat, 27 Feb 2021 at 01:54, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > The Texas energy crisis isn?t an example of an unfettered free market.
> Instead, it?s a matter of a state-level regulated energy sector, where it?s
> regulated, it seems, on behalf of big energy providers. (By the way, this
> is how much regulation works: big players lobby for regulations to keep out
> competition and basically rent-seek. Sometimes ?secondary revaluations?
> come in to play. This is new regulations attempt to mitigate the problems
> of earlier regulations ? and often these are done to protect consumers or
> small players. But these are usually bandaids on a system regulated for the
> big players and connected interests.)
> >
> > Deregulation is sometimes advocated by some so called. liberals too. The
> Carter administration oversaw and promoted airline and trucking
> deregulation. That seems to be one reason for low airfares and the kind of
> rapid delivery services that happened afterward. Of course, the devil is in
> the details. Sometimes a particular deregulation is really nothing more
> than allow big players to do as they please in an override heavily
> regulated industry. (Think of banking and securities. Both heavily
> regulated, yet loosing some rules usually doesn?t mean promoting a free
> market in either, but usually just allowing big players to do stuff they
> wouldn?t be able to do in an actual free market. Of course, bailouts don?t
> help this either.)
> >
> > Dan
> > _______________________________________________
>
>
> Agreed. As Dan says the big problem in Texas is regulatory capture by
> large companies.
> This has grown to be a major problem throughout the USA in many industries.
> 'Profits before people' is the result.
>
> The Texas power industries have been warned time after time that a
> disaster could happen, but they negotiated a system where if there is
> a shortage of power the price to consumers escalates hundreds of
> times. They claimed this would encourage the companies to supply more
> power. Well, it didn't. What it encouraged was the companies to allow
> shortages of power where they made huge profits. People dying and
> homes ruined by burst pipes were just collateral damage.
>
> Nothing personal, it's just business.
>
>
> BillK
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Feb 28 00:31:24 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 18:31:24 -0600
Subject: [ExI] multiverse/physics fraud
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbKgz_tXGtB85xMyTthLbfkLyHBE8pB5MykcMNgnnm50g@mail.gmail.com>

https://aeon.co/essays/post-empirical-science-is-an-oxymoron-and-it-is-dangerous
?
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