From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Jul  1 18:52:30 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2021 13:52:30 -0500
Subject: [ExI] china malaria
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaKXBtEDsfYWeJQJv+FvV_wFg_1_hPOmwM5e-3cpEQ1jQ@mail.gmail.com>

I can't figure out how China eliminated malaria.  Spraying, diagnosing,
treating, etc. were done.

But presumably malaria-carrying mosquitoes are still there.  You can't get
rid of mosquitoes all over China, can you?

No mention of preventative drugs. I am stumped.

bill w
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From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Jul  1 19:29:00 2021
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2021 20:29:00 +0100
Subject: [ExI] china malaria
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaKXBtEDsfYWeJQJv+FvV_wFg_1_hPOmwM5e-3cpEQ1jQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaKXBtEDsfYWeJQJv+FvV_wFg_1_hPOmwM5e-3cpEQ1jQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhrUWkqDWYU7Ybd4KH6hOiYZtNgSVp-dp4PnLO4c+mE4Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 1 Jul 2021 at 19:55, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> I can't figure out how China eliminated malaria.  Spraying, diagnosing, treating, etc. were done.
> But presumably malaria-carrying mosquitoes are still there.  You can't get rid of mosquitoes all over China, can you?
>
> No mention of preventative drugs. I am stumped.
>
> bill w
> _______________________________________________


Whenever you find yourself typing "I can't figure out how.......",
then you should think "maybe I should ask Google"?

<https://www.who.int/news/item/30-06-2021-from-30-million-cases-to-zero-china-is-certified-malaria-free-by-who>
Quote:
Beginning in the 1950s, health authorities in China worked to locate
and stop the spread of malaria by providing preventive antimalarial
medicines for people at risk of the disease as well as treatment for
those who had fallen ill. The country also made a major effort to
reduce mosquito breeding grounds and stepped up the use of insecticide
spraying in homes in some areas.

In 1967, the Chinese Government launched the ?523 Project? ? a
nation-wide research programme aimed at finding new treatments for
malaria. This effort, involving more than 500 scientists from 60
institutions, led to the discovery in the 1970s of artemisinin ? the
core compound of artemisinin-based combination therapies (ACTs), the
most effective antimalarial drugs available today.

In the 1980s, China was one of the first countries in the world to
extensively test the use of insecticide-treated nets (ITNs) for the
prevention of malaria, well before nets were recommended by WHO for
malaria control. By 1988, more than 2.4 million nets had been
distributed nation-wide. The use of such nets led to substantial
reductions in malaria incidence in the areas where they were deployed.
etc......
-------------------

BillK


From danust2012 at gmail.com  Thu Jul  1 20:01:59 2021
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2021 20:01:59 +0000
Subject: [ExI] uncommon lols
In-Reply-To: <001c01d76df0$c6b1f910$5415eb30$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZKyBgQAVVOwetHQ9FUUN=K3AsQKe8ZFrgvePNdpwEXKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <438DF4EE-9A2E-40C9-987F-C0525C81468F@gmail.com>
 <001c01d76df0$c6b1f910$5415eb30$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CACB7g26FztmMcwfMtZy-QxZ08-7WUJssdBvZiMKT1CSc=Zqu9g@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 8:47 PM spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> On Jun 30, 2021, at 6:35 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >>?We all need more laughter in our lives.  Of all beasts, I know of no other species that does that,
>>> and just think about how much of a waste that is.
>
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat
>
> >?I don?t think anyone?s saying this is the last word, though it looks like good evidence at this point that laughter isn?t peculiarly human.
>
> Human laughter takes on so many different forms, I can?t think of anything which would be analogous to it in nature.

Have you read the journal piece I mentioned? See:

http://www.bioacoustics.info/article/play-vocalizations-and-human-laughter-comparative-review

Don't want to read all that stuffy sciency prose? NPR did a segment on it too:

https://www.npr.org/2021/05/22/999491591/dozens-of-animals-laugh-too-study-shows

Much easier to access, and it seems like the examples they use are
analogous to human laughter.

Disagree? What would qualify as analogous in your mind? It might be
you're setting the bar too high. (Which isn't to say that human
behavior hasn't ramified the trait to a greater extent than other
extant animals. For instance, tool use is observed in primates,
corvids, and even cephalopods, but none of these organisms has
organized anything like a textile mill or a 3-D printer.)

Think of this: laughter is almost certainly an evolved behavior. And
it seems fairly basic -- as humans do it at an early age and I don't
know of a human culture without laughter. Humans share many other
basic behaviors with other animals, especially with primates and other
social animals. (Some of these could be shared primitive traits,
others convergent evolution, still others simply things that
regardless of evolution any social species would do.) So, I'd start
from the position not of human exceptionalism here, but of what is the
likely evolutionary path of the behavior.

(I don't like to use 'in nature' because it presumes humans are
outside nature. But I get what you mean. I'm not into the strong form
of Sapir-Whorf, but I think using such idioms reinforces an
anti-evolutionary view here.)

> Perhaps beasts really do have a form of laughter which we cannot detect.  This brings up a rather disturbing thought?

Again, look at the evidence. It seems like there are other animals
have something like laughter, sometimes that's close enough that using
terms like 'play vocalizations' almost seems pedantic rather than
informative. See also:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laughter_in_animals

To me, being around humans, cats, dogs, etc., it seems like play and
laughter are there if you pay attention. Yes, a cat or a dog or a
parrot isn't going to laugh at a clever pun, but in the context of
their understanding it seems they do laugh or have 'play
vocalizations.'

To me, this is similar to how people live around cats their whole
lives yet can't figure out why most cats don't like belly rubs or get
irritated after being pet too long. (Not to mention, there is this
thing called Google that one can use to see if anyone else has figured
out pressing issues like this.:)

> What if? our dogs and cats really are laughing at us.  We can?t see it,
> but inside, they have contemptuous gales of derisive laughter.  Dogs
> don?t really act as if they do, but cats? one can never really tell with
> those aloof clawey bastards.  They might be laughing at us.

Eh.

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Jul  1 20:06:06 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2021 15:06:06 -0500
Subject: [ExI] china malaria
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhrUWkqDWYU7Ybd4KH6hOiYZtNgSVp-dp4PnLO4c+mE4Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaKXBtEDsfYWeJQJv+FvV_wFg_1_hPOmwM5e-3cpEQ1jQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhrUWkqDWYU7Ybd4KH6hOiYZtNgSVp-dp4PnLO4c+mE4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbkjrob62uRfQEeGY7vFor47haava6ArLxXH3BUUg6-sw@mail.gmail.com>

thanks Bill K - did go to Google and still don't understand it unless every
Chinese citizen is immune (which I doubt -if there is a 100% effective
preventative drug (which I doubt) that I don't know about, why doesn't WHO
get it to AFrica?) - even if they eradicated mosquitoes entirely, which
they didn't, they would still come in from neighboring countries in one way
or another.  bill w

On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 2:31 PM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Thu, 1 Jul 2021 at 19:55, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > I can't figure out how China eliminated malaria.  Spraying, diagnosing,
> treating, etc. were done.
> > But presumably malaria-carrying mosquitoes are still there.  You can't
> get rid of mosquitoes all over China, can you?
> >
> > No mention of preventative drugs. I am stumped.
> >
> > bill w
> > _______________________________________________
>
>
> Whenever you find yourself typing "I can't figure out how.......",
> then you should think "maybe I should ask Google"?
>
> <
> https://www.who.int/news/item/30-06-2021-from-30-million-cases-to-zero-china-is-certified-malaria-free-by-who
> >
> Quote:
> Beginning in the 1950s, health authorities in China worked to locate
> and stop the spread of malaria by providing preventive antimalarial
> medicines for people at risk of the disease as well as treatment for
> those who had fallen ill. The country also made a major effort to
> reduce mosquito breeding grounds and stepped up the use of insecticide
> spraying in homes in some areas.
>
> In 1967, the Chinese Government launched the ?523 Project? ? a
> nation-wide research programme aimed at finding new treatments for
> malaria. This effort, involving more than 500 scientists from 60
> institutions, led to the discovery in the 1970s of artemisinin ? the
> core compound of artemisinin-based combination therapies (ACTs), the
> most effective antimalarial drugs available today.
>
> In the 1980s, China was one of the first countries in the world to
> extensively test the use of insecticide-treated nets (ITNs) for the
> prevention of malaria, well before nets were recommended by WHO for
> malaria control. By 1988, more than 2.4 million nets had been
> distributed nation-wide. The use of such nets led to substantial
> reductions in malaria incidence in the areas where they were deployed.
> etc......
> -------------------
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Jul  1 20:12:46 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2021 15:12:46 -0500
Subject: [ExI] uncommon lols
In-Reply-To: <CACB7g26FztmMcwfMtZy-QxZ08-7WUJssdBvZiMKT1CSc=Zqu9g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZKyBgQAVVOwetHQ9FUUN=K3AsQKe8ZFrgvePNdpwEXKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <438DF4EE-9A2E-40C9-987F-C0525C81468F@gmail.com>
 <001c01d76df0$c6b1f910$5415eb30$@rainier66.com>
 <CACB7g26FztmMcwfMtZy-QxZ08-7WUJssdBvZiMKT1CSc=Zqu9g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEb9YnFPhMB-QB4xNo8bu-foEvDYOToy9hWijWu4hUC0Kg@mail.gmail.com>

Don't want to read all that stuffy sciency prose?
If this is a dig it is not appreciated.  I love reading science.  Can't do
much with physics, chemistry or math unless written for laypeople.  Let's
just say that I made an offhand comment and didn't google anything.   bill w

On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 3:04 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 8:47 PM spike jones via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> > On Jun 30, 2021, at 6:35 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> > >>?We all need more laughter in our lives.  Of all beasts, I know of no
> other species that does that,
> >>> and just think about how much of a waste that is.
> >
> > From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf
> Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat
> >
> > >?I don?t think anyone?s saying this is the last word, though it looks
> like good evidence at this point that laughter isn?t peculiarly human.
> >
> > Human laughter takes on so many different forms, I can?t think of
> anything which would be analogous to it in nature.
>
> Have you read the journal piece I mentioned? See:
>
>
> http://www.bioacoustics.info/article/play-vocalizations-and-human-laughter-comparative-review
>
> Don't want to read all that stuffy sciency prose? NPR did a segment on it
> too:
>
>
> https://www.npr.org/2021/05/22/999491591/dozens-of-animals-laugh-too-study-shows
>
> Much easier to access, and it seems like the examples they use are
> analogous to human laughter.
>
> Disagree? What would qualify as analogous in your mind? It might be
> you're setting the bar too high. (Which isn't to say that human
> behavior hasn't ramified the trait to a greater extent than other
> extant animals. For instance, tool use is observed in primates,
> corvids, and even cephalopods, but none of these organisms has
> organized anything like a textile mill or a 3-D printer.)
>
> Think of this: laughter is almost certainly an evolved behavior. And
> it seems fairly basic -- as humans do it at an early age and I don't
> know of a human culture without laughter. Humans share many other
> basic behaviors with other animals, especially with primates and other
> social animals. (Some of these could be shared primitive traits,
> others convergent evolution, still others simply things that
> regardless of evolution any social species would do.) So, I'd start
> from the position not of human exceptionalism here, but of what is the
> likely evolutionary path of the behavior.
>
> (I don't like to use 'in nature' because it presumes humans are
> outside nature. But I get what you mean. I'm not into the strong form
> of Sapir-Whorf, but I think using such idioms reinforces an
> anti-evolutionary view here.)
>
> > Perhaps beasts really do have a form of laughter which we cannot
> detect.  This brings up a rather disturbing thought?
>
> Again, look at the evidence. It seems like there are other animals
> have something like laughter, sometimes that's close enough that using
> terms like 'play vocalizations' almost seems pedantic rather than
> informative. See also:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laughter_in_animals
>
> To me, being around humans, cats, dogs, etc., it seems like play and
> laughter are there if you pay attention. Yes, a cat or a dog or a
> parrot isn't going to laugh at a clever pun, but in the context of
> their understanding it seems they do laugh or have 'play
> vocalizations.'
>
> To me, this is similar to how people live around cats their whole
> lives yet can't figure out why most cats don't like belly rubs or get
> irritated after being pet too long. (Not to mention, there is this
> thing called Google that one can use to see if anyone else has figured
> out pressing issues like this.:)
>
> > What if? our dogs and cats really are laughing at us.  We can?t see it,
> > but inside, they have contemptuous gales of derisive laughter.  Dogs
> > don?t really act as if they do, but cats? one can never really tell with
> > those aloof clawey bastards.  They might be laughing at us.
>
> Eh.
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>   Sample my Kindle books via:
> http://author.to/DanUst
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Jul  1 20:28:32 2021
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2021 21:28:32 +0100
Subject: [ExI] china malaria
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbkjrob62uRfQEeGY7vFor47haava6ArLxXH3BUUg6-sw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaKXBtEDsfYWeJQJv+FvV_wFg_1_hPOmwM5e-3cpEQ1jQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhrUWkqDWYU7Ybd4KH6hOiYZtNgSVp-dp4PnLO4c+mE4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbkjrob62uRfQEeGY7vFor47haava6ArLxXH3BUUg6-sw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armg-TkcGrwW1TMkrdrM0KyuVJXtsnuFmG0qo_Z6pE5Bdog@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 1 Jul 2021 at 21:10, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> thanks Bill K - did go to Google and still don't understand it unless every Chinese citizen is immune (which I doubt -if there is a 100% effective preventative drug (which I doubt) that I don't know about, why doesn't WHO get it to AFrica?) - even if they eradicated mosquitoes entirely, which they didn't, they would still come in from neighboring countries in one way or another.  bill w
>
> _______________________________________________


Quote:
Globally, 40 countries and territories have been granted a
malaria-free certification from WHO ? including, most recently, El
Salvador (2021), Algeria (2019), Argentina (2019), Paraguay (2018) and
Uzbekistan (2018).
--------------

So probably when mosquitos fly in from next door countries, they see
that the countries have a 'NO MOSQUITOS' certificate and either drop
dead or turn round and go back home.   :)


BillK


From danust2012 at gmail.com  Thu Jul  1 20:40:32 2021
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2021 13:40:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] uncommon lols
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEb9YnFPhMB-QB4xNo8bu-foEvDYOToy9hWijWu4hUC0Kg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb9YnFPhMB-QB4xNo8bu-foEvDYOToy9hWijWu4hUC0Kg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <37597CB8-2407-4AC7-8E19-F77EB1D4716F@gmail.com>

That comment was aimed at Spike ? not you.

> On Jul 1, 2021, at 1:15 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> Don't want to read all that stuffy sciency prose? 
> If this is a dig it is not appreciated.  I love reading science.  Can't do much with physics, chemistry or math unless written for laypeople.  Let's just say that I made an offhand comment and didn't google anything.   bill w
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Thu Jul  1 20:43:21 2021
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2021 13:43:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] china malaria
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armg-TkcGrwW1TMkrdrM0KyuVJXtsnuFmG0qo_Z6pE5Bdog@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armg-TkcGrwW1TMkrdrM0KyuVJXtsnuFmG0qo_Z6pE5Bdog@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <209ECF3D-DD17-4A5F-A94C-6B66A0A0B78E@gmail.com>

Kidding aside, how far does the average malaria-bearing mosquito travel? I?d guess they?re not like monarch butterflies. (I?m already aware that the monarch migration is generational.)

> On Jul 1, 2021, at 1:30 PM, BillK via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> So probably when mosquitos fly in from next door countries, they see
> that the countries have a 'NO MOSQUITOS' certificate and either drop
> dead or turn round and go back home.   :)
> 
> BillK


From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Jul  1 21:00:16 2021
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2021 22:00:16 +0100
Subject: [ExI] china malaria
In-Reply-To: <209ECF3D-DD17-4A5F-A94C-6B66A0A0B78E@gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armg-TkcGrwW1TMkrdrM0KyuVJXtsnuFmG0qo_Z6pE5Bdog@mail.gmail.com>
 <209ECF3D-DD17-4A5F-A94C-6B66A0A0B78E@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgcBwN6QqQ4mCRJZRL0sE_Te62tQP+KjfZLVDKmJb-sug@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 1 Jul 2021 at 21:48, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Kidding aside, how far does the average malaria-bearing mosquito travel? I?d guess they?re not like monarch butterflies. (I?m already aware that the monarch migration is generational.)
>
> _______________________________________________


Heh!  :)  Somebody said you're supposed to google questions like that!  ;)
Usually less than 5 kilometres during their lifespan. But sometimes
they can get carried hundreds of kilometres by strong winds.



BillK


From avant at sollegro.com  Thu Jul  1 22:49:57 2021
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2021 15:49:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Starting school too early
Message-ID: <20210701154957.Horde.lJB_X025alUr7CzPJh6nCnj@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>


So a new shot has been fired in the perennial debate between the  
nature and nurture folks in educational psychology. According to a  
massive corroborative study between Stanford University and the  
government of Denmark, students who start school closer to 6 years of  
age when they start school suffer from more ADHD/inattention, and  
other mental health issues and difficulties in school than students  
who don't start kindergarten until age 7.

Interestingly, this corresponds to the transition between Piaget's  
pre-operational stage where kids are prone to cognitive and social  
emotional errors such as difficulties with concepts like number,  
amount, centrism, conservation, animism, and egocentrism and his  
concrete operational phase where children develop the ability to  
logically reason in an accurate multidimensional fashion regarding  
concrete objects and people (as opposed to imaginary friends). Sadly,  
however, the study article does not reference Piaget.

Could starting school too early be stunting a child's social and  
emotional development by ending social play before the child has fully  
worked out boundaries between self and others? Could this be at least  
partly responsible for the world-wide epidemic of autism and ADHD that  
antivaxxers are attributing to childhood vaccines?

What say you psychogeeks, aspies, and parents?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2015/10/07/delaying-kindergarten-until-age-7-offers-key-benefits-to-kids-study/

https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w21610/w21610.pdf


Stuart LaForge




From danust2012 at gmail.com  Thu Jul  1 23:42:22 2021
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2021 16:42:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] china malaria
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgcBwN6QqQ4mCRJZRL0sE_Te62tQP+KjfZLVDKmJb-sug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgcBwN6QqQ4mCRJZRL0sE_Te62tQP+KjfZLVDKmJb-sug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <618DFDB2-C831-4308-9BBC-676FDF32D458@gmail.com>

On Jul 1, 2021, at 2:02 PM, BillK via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> ?On Thu, 1 Jul 2021 at 21:48, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Kidding aside, how far does the average malaria-bearing mosquito travel? I?d guess they?re not like monarch butterflies. (I?m already aware that the monarch migration is generational.)
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
> 
> Heh!  :)  Somebody said you're supposed to google questions like that!  ;)
> Usually less than 5 kilometres during their lifespan. But sometimes
> they can get carried hundreds of kilometres by strong winds.

I wonder what the distribution is there ? a much tougher question to google. ;) I mean what?s the likelihood of a mosquito, especially a malaria- carrying one, to travel hundreds of km? and survive as a viable vector; a mosquito making that journey but ending it as a corpse probably isn?t going to matter here. Or is it? 

It seems it?s ?rare? according to most sites for the organisms to travel farther than 5 km ? with the exception of salt marsh species.

Not finding any answer to my corpse question, but that could simply be because I?m not wording it the right way. Maybe a good question for Quora.

Regards,

Dan

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Jul  2 00:36:44 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2021 19:36:44 -0500
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Starting school too early
In-Reply-To: <20210701154957.Horde.lJB_X025alUr7CzPJh6nCnj@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <20210701154957.Horde.lJB_X025alUr7CzPJh6nCnj@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaURNbMPYoAtbAG_FvBUPV+b9CZjciY1tz2i+uka4XoiQ@mail.gmail.com>

The average age for the diagnosis of autism is a bit over four years of
age.  For ADHD it's four. Medians.   Since these are medians the kids who
get diagnosed much later, teen years for example, did not affect the
average.  Draw your own conclusions.  So they start school on the average
of two years after the average age at diagnosis of these two conditions.
Also, the transition to the next Piaget stage will vary (how much I do not
know).  Then too, Piaget's stage ideas have lost some support over the
years.

While I do not question the data (child psych not one of my areas) one year
of difference in age should not cause the big effects they report.  Did
they separate the children who had been to some sort of kindergarten before
from the ones who had not?  Did not see that.  I did not do  a thorough
study of the study.  I could have found more potential problems.

All in all, we'll have to wait for replications before changing the start
of school.     Typically a first study will feature larger effects than
replications will.  Draw your own conclusions.    bill w

On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 5:50 PM Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:

>
> So a new shot has been fired in the perennial debate between the
> nature and nurture folks in educational psychology. According to a
> massive corroborative study between Stanford University and the
> government of Denmark, students who start school closer to 6 years of
> age when they start school suffer from more ADHD/inattention, and
> other mental health issues and difficulties in school than students
> who don't start kindergarten until age 7.
>
> Interestingly, this corresponds to the transition between Piaget's
> pre-operational stage where kids are prone to cognitive and social
> emotional errors such as difficulties with concepts like number,
> amount, centrism, conservation, animism, and egocentrism and his
> concrete operational phase where children develop the ability to
> logically reason in an accurate multidimensional fashion regarding
> concrete objects and people (as opposed to imaginary friends). Sadly,
> however, the study article does not reference Piaget.
>
> Could starting school too early be stunting a child's social and
> emotional development by ending social play before the child has fully
> worked out boundaries between self and others? Could this be at least
> partly responsible for the world-wide epidemic of autism and ADHD that
> antivaxxers are attributing to childhood vaccines?
>
> What say you psychogeeks, aspies, and parents?
>
>
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2015/10/07/delaying-kindergarten-until-age-7-offers-key-benefits-to-kids-study/
>
> https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w21610/w21610.pdf
>
>
> Stuart LaForge
>
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/20210701154957.Horde.lJB_X025alUr7CzPJh6nCnj%40secure199.inmotionhosting.com
> .
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Jul  2 01:01:02 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2021 20:01:02 -0500
Subject: [ExI] read this, Henry
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaB71Dc52W-TK9XFz4zB5SW=A1nXid_49JN4iUYfb-FPQ@mail.gmail.com>

One big problem with research on ADHD and autism is misdiagnosis,
especially false positives, and even what symptoms have to be there and how
severe they have to be.  A child I knew whom I considered a perfectly
normal, active boy, was diagnosed with ADHD and put on an antipsychotic
drug, which made him a zombie.. Working with psychiatrists I saw one
patient diagnosed schizo who was diagnosed by another as normal!!!  In
other words, there is a big problem with the reliability of the diagnoses
in these two disorders, and others.  Psychiatry is not a science (neither
is clinical psych).  They are arts.  Another example:  people diagnosed as
schizo here are liable to be diagnosed as manic depressive in Britain.

Still, that is an interesting study which will be followed closely.    bill
w
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Jul  2 03:56:06 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2021 20:56:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] read this, Henry
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaB71Dc52W-TK9XFz4zB5SW=A1nXid_49JN4iUYfb-FPQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaB71Dc52W-TK9XFz4zB5SW=A1nXid_49JN4iUYfb-FPQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003c01d76ef6$2fa96600$8efc3200$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat

Subject: [ExI] read this, Henry

 

>?  A child I knew whom I considered a perfectly normal, active boy, was diagnosed with ADHD and put on an antipsychotic drug, which made him a zombie?     bill w

 

Hey cool, I have an idea.  I will go to the doctor, act like a wild man, get ADHD drugs, don?t eat them but just act like a zombie, sell the drugs, make a ton of money.

 

spike

 

 

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From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu  Fri Jul  2 13:12:48 2021
From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2021 09:12:48 -0400
Subject: [ExI] read this, Henry
In-Reply-To: <003c01d76ef6$2fa96600$8efc3200$@rainier66.com>
References: <003c01d76ef6$2fa96600$8efc3200$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <BB0D87EF-51C5-4F1F-9D11-963DE22ADE00@alumni.virginia.edu>

Spike, that is not an original idea unfortunately. 

Stathis,
Schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder and bipolar disorder are likely different manifestations of a single underlying condition. 

This genetic research on these conditions has suggested this for sometime I believe. Twin research on ?pro bands? in particular. Depression variations get implicated too. 

Bill,
Differential diagnosis and inter-rater reliability are significant issues still. Use of objective measures and checklist helps with validity. The Brown ADD scale for example if used more vs a psychiatrist saying ?yeah, seems like adhd to me,? will go along way towards helping with this. Adhd symptoms also have to be observed in multiple settings, and without a checklist for the teacher?s observation for example, one would only be going by parent report which is not as reliable for the multiple environments piece. 

> On Jul 1, 2021, at 11:56 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> ?
>  
>  
> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> 
> Subject: [ExI] read this, Henry
>  
> >?  A child I knew whom I considered a perfectly normal, active boy, was diagnosed with ADHD and put on an antipsychotic drug, which made him a zombie?     bill w
>  
> Hey cool, I have an idea.  I will go to the doctor, act like a wild man, get ADHD drugs, don?t eat them but just act like a zombie, sell the drugs, make a ton of money.
>  
> spike
>  
>  
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Jul  2 14:22:06 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2021 09:22:06 -0500
Subject: [ExI] china malaria
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armg-TkcGrwW1TMkrdrM0KyuVJXtsnuFmG0qo_Z6pE5Bdog@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaKXBtEDsfYWeJQJv+FvV_wFg_1_hPOmwM5e-3cpEQ1jQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhrUWkqDWYU7Ybd4KH6hOiYZtNgSVp-dp4PnLO4c+mE4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbkjrob62uRfQEeGY7vFor47haava6ArLxXH3BUUg6-sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armg-TkcGrwW1TMkrdrM0KyuVJXtsnuFmG0qo_Z6pE5Bdog@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYkwbZ5Ex=kaAjXYS4iqm+FdrRStaE3ratqtuuaFCxmWQ@mail.gmail.com>

Bill K, that is one of the best answers I have seen!   bill w

On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 3:30 PM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Thu, 1 Jul 2021 at 21:10, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > thanks Bill K - did go to Google and still don't understand it unless
> every Chinese citizen is immune (which I doubt -if there is a 100%
> effective preventative drug (which I doubt) that I don't know about, why
> doesn't WHO get it to AFrica?) - even if they eradicated mosquitoes
> entirely, which they didn't, they would still come in from neighboring
> countries in one way or another.  bill w
> >
> > _______________________________________________
>
>
> Quote:
> Globally, 40 countries and territories have been granted a
> malaria-free certification from WHO ? including, most recently, El
> Salvador (2021), Algeria (2019), Argentina (2019), Paraguay (2018) and
> Uzbekistan (2018).
> --------------
>
> So probably when mosquitos fly in from next door countries, they see
> that the countries have a 'NO MOSQUITOS' certificate and either drop
> dead or turn round and go back home.   :)
>
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From ben at zaiboc.net  Fri Jul  2 18:00:07 2021
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2021 19:00:07 +0100
Subject: [ExI] uncommon lols
In-Reply-To: <mailman.0.1625170393.451.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.0.1625170393.451.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <cf24207f-5599-8f0b-60da-98c377fd4a8d@zaiboc.net>

On 01/07/2021 21:13, Dan TheBookMan wrote:
> Think of this: laughter is almost certainly an evolved behavior. And
> it seems fairly basic -- as humans do it at an early age and I don't
> know of a human culture without laughter. Humans share many other
> basic behaviors with other animals, especially with primates and other
> social animals. (Some of these could be shared primitive traits,
> others convergent evolution, still others simply things that
> regardless of evolution any social species would do.) So, I'd start
> from the position not of human exceptionalism here, but of what is the
> likely evolutionary path of the behavior.

Which makes, to my mind, something else which I've posted about here 
before, even more mysterious: Music. You can say the same things about 
music as about laughter, in humans. But it seems much harder to conclude 
that other animals have a musical sense than it does to conclude that 
they have some form of laughter.

-- 
Ben Zaiboc


From danust2012 at gmail.com  Fri Jul  2 18:48:23 2021
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2021 11:48:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] uncommon lols
In-Reply-To: <cf24207f-5599-8f0b-60da-98c377fd4a8d@zaiboc.net>
References: <cf24207f-5599-8f0b-60da-98c377fd4a8d@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <5FD27181-4F16-44A4-9CBB-BDF67607A54C@gmail.com>

> On Jul 2, 2021, at 11:02 AM, Ben via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> ?On 01/07/2021 21:13, Dan TheBookMan wrote:
>> Think of this: laughter is almost certainly an evolved behavior. And
>> it seems fairly basic -- as humans do it at an early age and I don't
>> know of a human culture without laughter. Humans share many other
>> basic behaviors with other animals, especially with primates and other
>> social animals. (Some of these could be shared primitive traits,
>> others convergent evolution, still others simply things that
>> regardless of evolution any social species would do.) So, I'd start
>> from the position not of human exceptionalism here, but of what is the
>> likely evolutionary path of the behavior.
> 
> Which makes, to my mind, something else which I've posted about here before, even more mysterious: Music. You can say the same things about music as about laughter, in humans. But it seems much harder to conclude that other animals have a musical sense than it does to conclude that they have some form of laughter.
> 
> -- 
> Ben Zaiboc

I recall a discussion of rhythm, but I would also focus on melody. It seems that perceiving melodies is not widespread. The issue is perceiving melodies in different pitch ranges ? as opposed to hearing a melody shifted, say, a half note as a completely different thing. In other words, many animals perceive the absolute pitch and the attention is there rather than the relative pitch between notes. (Think of this like playing a melody in the usual key on a piano and then shifting it to another key. You still, I trust, here the melody, though you might (or might not*) notice it?s now shifted. My guess is many animal species simply hear it as a different probably unrelated entity. An analogy might be with color. If I were to show there ?colors? on the spectrum separated by a certain frequency, then shift the spectrum of the three, I doubt most people would see the before and after shift as related. They wouldn?t perceive a color melody.)

Anyhow, see:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5479468/

Regards,

Dan

* Think of playing any beginner?s melody to someone (who doesn?t have perfect pitch) one day starting at middle C they playing it an hour later starting at C# above middle C. Would they recognize them as the same melody? Very likely. Would they recognize the shift? Not so likely.
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Jul  2 19:56:27 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2021 14:56:27 -0500
Subject: [ExI] uncommon lols
In-Reply-To: <5FD27181-4F16-44A4-9CBB-BDF67607A54C@gmail.com>
References: <cf24207f-5599-8f0b-60da-98c377fd4a8d@zaiboc.net>
 <5FD27181-4F16-44A4-9CBB-BDF67607A54C@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbUQw0Kjy5BPz-g1cVT68va4GJ26Va=1rF+jh4jpqUSEw@mail.gmail.com>

I know this one thing:  chickens won't lay as many eggs to rock as they
will to Mozart.  Draw your own conclusions.  I can't imagine getting grant
money to study this.   bill w

On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 1:50 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Jul 2, 2021, at 11:02 AM, Ben via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> ?On 01/07/2021 21:13, Dan TheBookMan wrote:
>
> Think of this: laughter is almost certainly an evolved behavior. And
>
> it seems fairly basic -- as humans do it at an early age and I don't
>
> know of a human culture without laughter. Humans share many other
>
> basic behaviors with other animals, especially with primates and other
>
> social animals. (Some of these could be shared primitive traits,
>
> others convergent evolution, still others simply things that
>
> regardless of evolution any social species would do.) So, I'd start
>
> from the position not of human exceptionalism here, but of what is the
>
> likely evolutionary path of the behavior.
>
>
> Which makes, to my mind, something else which I've posted about here
> before, even more mysterious: Music. You can say the same things about
> music as about laughter, in humans. But it seems much harder to conclude
> that other animals have a musical sense than it does to conclude that they
> have some form of laughter.
>
> --
> Ben Zaiboc
>
>
> I recall a discussion of rhythm, but I would also focus on melody. It
> seems that perceiving melodies is not widespread. The issue is perceiving
> melodies in different pitch ranges ? as opposed to hearing a melody
> shifted, say, a half note as a completely different thing. In other words,
> many animals perceive the absolute pitch and the attention is there rather
> than the relative pitch between notes. (Think of this like playing a melody
> in the usual key on a piano and then shifting it to another key. You still,
> I trust, here the melody, though you might (or might not*) notice it?s now
> shifted. My guess is many animal species simply hear it as a different
> probably unrelated entity. An analogy might be with color. If I were to
> show there ?colors? on the spectrum separated by a certain frequency, then
> shift the spectrum of the three, I doubt most people would see the before
> and after shift as related. They wouldn?t perceive a color melody.)
>
> Anyhow, see:
>
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5479468/
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>
> * Think of playing any beginner?s melody to someone (who doesn?t have
> perfect pitch) one day starting at middle C they playing it an hour later
> starting at C# above middle C. Would they recognize them as the same
> melody? Very likely. Would they recognize the shift? Not so likely.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Jul  2 20:42:26 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2021 15:42:26 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Science Times: Hot Dinosaur Summer
In-Reply-To: <E2.A3.26602.CC27FD06@aa.mta2vrest.cc.prd.sparkpost>
References: <E2.A3.26602.CC27FD06@aa.mta2vrest.cc.prd.sparkpost>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbB4pD5v9Ls3kfG7GirFjzcsF9Xgvx0NHmRQ5wbHaj77g@mail.gmail.com>

for the drawings    bill w

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: The New York Times <nytdirect at nytimes.com>
Date: Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 3:10 PM
Subject: Science Times: Hot Dinosaur Summer
To: <foozler83 at gmail.com>


Plus: Antarctica as a person, recycling bowling balls and ?Jeff Who?? ?
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Hot Dinosaur Summer

Text and Illustrations by Matt McCann
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Dinosaurs, which ruled the planet for roughly 170 million years and were
one of the most successful animals ever, may have been in a 10-million-year
decline at the time of their apocalypse, according to research published
this week.

A study
<https://nl.nytimes.com/f/a/che_Ej2LOvl9m044k5dhJA~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRiwffMP0TJaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubmF0dXJlLmNvbS9hcnRpY2xlcy9zNDE0NjctMDIxLTIzNzU0LTA_Y2FtcGFpZ25faWQ9MzQmZW1jPWVkaXRfc2NfMjAyMTA3MDImaW5zdGFuY2VfaWQ9MzQ0OTcmbmw9c2NpZW5jZS10aW1lcyZyZWdpX2lkPTY0MTU5Nzc2JnNlZ21lbnRfaWQ9NjI1MDUmdGU9MSZ1c2VyX2lkPTVlNzExMzliNzlhYjE0MzNkMDc3MTBkOGY4ODM1NmM4VwNueXRCCmDdzHLfYMavLjpSE2Zvb3psZXI4M0BnbWFpbC5jb21YBAAAAAA~>
in the journal Nature Communications contends that rates of extinction
increased and the evolution of new species began to decrease 76 million
years ago, before the ?coup de gr?ce? of the Chicxulub impact
<https://nl.nytimes.com/f/newsletter/RAzn77n--RduoUImu0NIiQ~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRiwffMP0TqaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubnl0aW1lcy5jb20vMjAxOS8wOS8xMC9zY2llbmNlL2NoaWN4dWx1Yi1hc3Rlcm9pZC1pbXBhY3QtZGlub3NhdXJzLmh0bWw_Y2FtcGFpZ25faWQ9MzQmZW1jPWVkaXRfc2NfMjAyMTA3MDImaW5zdGFuY2VfaWQ9MzQ0OTcmbmw9c2NpZW5jZS10aW1lcyZyZWdpX2lkPTY0MTU5Nzc2JnNlZ21lbnRfaWQ9NjI1MDUmdGU9MSZ1c2VyX2lkPTVlNzExMzliNzlhYjE0MzNkMDc3MTBkOGY4ODM1NmM4VwNueXRCCmDdzHLfYMavLjpSE2Zvb3psZXI4M0BnbWFpbC5jb21YBAAAAAA~>
some 66 million years ago. The reason, scientists suspect, was a changing
climate ? cold temperatures caused a cascade of collapse and calamity. The
paper is the latest entry in a long-running debate over why the dinosaurs
died off, and not all paleontologists agree
<https://nl.nytimes.com/f/a/B5u7fwX9QjGEVA2M1Gn9vA~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRiwffMP0TTaHR0cHM6Ly90d2l0dGVyLmNvbS9TdGV2ZUJydXNhdHRlL3N0YXR1cy8xNDEwMjY5NDUzODUwNDU2MDY3P2NhbXBhaWduX2lkPTM0JmVtYz1lZGl0X3NjXzIwMjEwNzAyJmluc3RhbmNlX2lkPTM0NDk3Jm5sPXNjaWVuY2UtdGltZXMmcmVnaV9pZD02NDE1OTc3NiZzZWdtZW50X2lkPTYyNTA1JnRlPTEmdXNlcl9pZD01ZTcxMTM5Yjc5YWIxNDMzZDA3NzEwZDhmODgzNTZjOFcDbnl0Qgpg3cxy32DGry46UhNmb296bGVyODNAZ21haWwuY29tWAQAAAAA>
that a steady decline was underway when the space rock struck.
Continue reading the main story <#m_4179061418295762935_a11y-skip-1>
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<https://nl.nytimes.com/f/a/lFYAIQCfifrssvbXXCJRXA~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRiwffMP0RtaHR0cHM6Ly9saXZlaW50ZW50Lm5ld3lvcmt0aW1lc2luZm8uY29tL2NsaWNrP3M9NzIzOTg1JmxpPVNDJm09NWU3MTEzOWI3OWFiMTQzM2QwNzcxMGQ4Zjg4MzU2YzgmcD1TQ18yMDIxMDcwMlcDbnl0Qgpg3cxy32DGry46UhNmb296bGVyODNAZ21haWwuY29tWAQAAAAA>

The research serves as a backdrop to consider this week?s heat wave in the
Pacific Northwest, and the precariousness of any animal?s time on Earth.
Including how quickly a more adaptive critter might take over.

In the dinosaurs? case, it turned out to be the mammals
<https://nl.nytimes.com/f/newsletter/sF8JrTqcnC0pD91-W8Bn3A~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRiwffMP0TpaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubnl0aW1lcy5jb20vMjAxOS8xMC8yNC9zY2llbmNlL2Zvc3NpbHMtbWFtbWFscy1kaW5vc2F1cnMtY29sb3JhZG8uaHRtbD9jYW1wYWlnbl9pZD0zNCZlbWM9ZWRpdF9zY18yMDIxMDcwMiZpbnN0YW5jZV9pZD0zNDQ5NyZubD1zY2llbmNlLXRpbWVzJnJlZ2lfaWQ9NjQxNTk3NzYmc2VnbWVudF9pZD02MjUwNSZ0ZT0xJnVzZXJfaWQ9NWU3MTEzOWI3OWFiMTQzM2QwNzcxMGQ4Zjg4MzU2YzhXA255dEIKYN3Mct9gxq8uOlITZm9vemxlcjgzQGdtYWlsLmNvbVgEAAAAAA~~>.
?The dinosaurs were mostly so huge they probably hardly knew that the furry
little mammals were there in the undergrowth. But the mammals began to
increase in numbers of species before the dinosaurs had gone, and then
after the impact they had their chance to build new kinds of ecosystems
which we see today,? said Fabien Condamine, the paper?s lead author and a
research scientist at the Institut des Sciences de l?Evolution de
Montpellier in France.
Continue reading the main story <#m_4179061418295762935_a11y-skip-2>
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Which makes me wonder: What animals might take over if we humans can?t
adapt? Are they currently underfoot, unnoticed?

Other scientists this week discovered a previously unknown beetle species
<https://nl.nytimes.com/f/newsletter/ypuxYE3PQFCXpu4u-LDEaw~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRiwffMP0TcaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubnl0aW1lcy5jb20vMjAyMS8wNi8zMC9zY2llbmNlL2JlZXRsZXMtZGlub3NhdXItcG9vcC5odG1sP2NhbXBhaWduX2lkPTM0JmVtYz1lZGl0X3NjXzIwMjEwNzAyJmluc3RhbmNlX2lkPTM0NDk3Jm5sPXNjaWVuY2UtdGltZXMmcmVnaV9pZD02NDE1OTc3NiZzZWdtZW50X2lkPTYyNTA1JnRlPTEmdXNlcl9pZD01ZTcxMTM5Yjc5YWIxNDMzZDA3NzEwZDhmODgzNTZjOFcDbnl0Qgpg3cxy32DGry46UhNmb296bGVyODNAZ21haWwuY29tWAQAAAAA>
in the coprolites, or fossilized feces, of dinosaur ancestors that lived
more than 200 million years ago. Perhaps, 200 million years from now,
super-evolved bugs will have their day, studying our coprolites for clues
to our existence as the circle of life continues.

NEWS ABOUT THE PAST AND THE FUTURE

And even some from right now.
[image: Article Image]

Wirestock, Inc./Alamy
<https://nl.nytimes.com/f/newsletter/ZYXN13uoYb53b-7oWqX-MA~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRiwffMP0TjaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubnl0aW1lcy5jb20vMjAyMS8wNy8wMi9zY2llbmNlL2FudGFyY3RpY2EtbWFvcmktZXhwbG9yYXRpb24uaHRtbD9jYW1wYWlnbl9pZD0zNCZlbWM9ZWRpdF9zY18yMDIxMDcwMiZpbnN0YW5jZV9pZD0zNDQ5NyZubD1zY2llbmNlLXRpbWVzJnJlZ2lfaWQ9NjQxNTk3NzYmc2VnbWVudF9pZD02MjUwNSZ0ZT0xJnVzZXJfaWQ9NWU3MTEzOWI3OWFiMTQzM2QwNzcxMGQ4Zjg4MzU2YzhXA255dEIKYN3Mct9gxq8uOlITZm9vemxlcjgzQGdtYWlsLmNvbVgEAAAAAA~~>

Personal Antarctica
For New Zealand?s Maori, who first discovered the southern continent
matters less than how we treat it in the future. ?
<https://nl.nytimes.com/f/newsletter/ZYXN13uoYb53b-7oWqX-MA~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRiwffMP0TjaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubnl0aW1lcy5jb20vMjAyMS8wNy8wMi9zY2llbmNlL2FudGFyY3RpY2EtbWFvcmktZXhwbG9yYXRpb24uaHRtbD9jYW1wYWlnbl9pZD0zNCZlbWM9ZWRpdF9zY18yMDIxMDcwMiZpbnN0YW5jZV9pZD0zNDQ5NyZubD1zY2llbmNlLXRpbWVzJnJlZ2lfaWQ9NjQxNTk3NzYmc2VnbWVudF9pZD02MjUwNSZ0ZT0xJnVzZXJfaWQ9NWU3MTEzOWI3OWFiMTQzM2QwNzcxMGQ4Zjg4MzU2YzhXA255dEIKYN3Mct9gxq8uOlITZm9vemxlcjgzQGdtYWlsLmNvbVgEAAAAAA~~>
[image: Article Image]

Gemmellaro Geological Museum
<https://nl.nytimes.com/f/newsletter/fMYfH0PCWcav0DioEUeV-A~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRiwffMP0TdaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubnl0aW1lcy5jb20vMjAyMS8wNy8wMS9zY2llbmNlL2R3YXJmLWVsZXBoYW50cy1zaWNpbHkuaHRtbD9jYW1wYWlnbl9pZD0zNCZlbWM9ZWRpdF9zY18yMDIxMDcwMiZpbnN0YW5jZV9pZD0zNDQ5NyZubD1zY2llbmNlLXRpbWVzJnJlZ2lfaWQ9NjQxNTk3NzYmc2VnbWVudF9pZD02MjUwNSZ0ZT0xJnVzZXJfaWQ9NWU3MTEzOWI3OWFiMTQzM2QwNzcxMGQ4Zjg4MzU2YzhXA255dEIKYN3Mct9gxq8uOlITZm9vemxlcjgzQGdtYWlsLmNvbVgEAAAAAA~~>

Mighty Small
When ancient elephants colonized Sicily, it didn?t take many generations
before they shrank to dwarf size. ?
<https://nl.nytimes.com/f/newsletter/fMYfH0PCWcav0DioEUeV-A~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRiwffMP0TdaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubnl0aW1lcy5jb20vMjAyMS8wNy8wMS9zY2llbmNlL2R3YXJmLWVsZXBoYW50cy1zaWNpbHkuaHRtbD9jYW1wYWlnbl9pZD0zNCZlbWM9ZWRpdF9zY18yMDIxMDcwMiZpbnN0YW5jZV9pZD0zNDQ5NyZubD1zY2llbmNlLXRpbWVzJnJlZ2lfaWQ9NjQxNTk3NzYmc2VnbWVudF9pZD02MjUwNSZ0ZT0xJnVzZXJfaWQ9NWU3MTEzOWI3OWFiMTQzM2QwNzcxMGQ4Zjg4MzU2YzhXA255dEIKYN3Mct9gxq8uOlITZm9vemxlcjgzQGdtYWlsLmNvbVgEAAAAAA~~>
[image: Article Image]

Eric Johnson/Reuters
<https://nl.nytimes.com/f/newsletter/KCpkmkMsIKb95UUOBiTEtA~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRiwffMP0TnaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubnl0aW1lcy5jb20vMjAyMS8wNy8wMS9zY2llbmNlL3JpY2hhcmQtYnJhbnNvbi1qZWZmLWJlem9zLXNwYWNlLmh0bWw_Y2FtcGFpZ25faWQ9MzQmZW1jPWVkaXRfc2NfMjAyMTA3MDImaW5zdGFuY2VfaWQ9MzQ0OTcmbmw9c2NpZW5jZS10aW1lcyZyZWdpX2lkPTY0MTU5Nzc2JnNlZ21lbnRfaWQ9NjI1MDUmdGU9MSZ1c2VyX2lkPTVlNzExMzliNzlhYjE0MzNkMDc3MTBkOGY4ODM1NmM4VwNueXRCCmDdzHLfYMavLjpSE2Zvb3psZXI4M0BnbWFpbC5jb21YBAAAAAA~>

?Jeff Who??
Jeff Bezos was going to be the first billionaire to fly in his own rocket
to space. Along came Richard Branson ? ?
<https://nl.nytimes.com/f/newsletter/KCpkmkMsIKb95UUOBiTEtA~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRiwffMP0TnaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubnl0aW1lcy5jb20vMjAyMS8wNy8wMS9zY2llbmNlL3JpY2hhcmQtYnJhbnNvbi1qZWZmLWJlem9zLXNwYWNlLmh0bWw_Y2FtcGFpZ25faWQ9MzQmZW1jPWVkaXRfc2NfMjAyMTA3MDImaW5zdGFuY2VfaWQ9MzQ0OTcmbmw9c2NpZW5jZS10aW1lcyZyZWdpX2lkPTY0MTU5Nzc2JnNlZ21lbnRfaWQ9NjI1MDUmdGU9MSZ1c2VyX2lkPTVlNzExMzliNzlhYjE0MzNkMDc3MTBkOGY4ODM1NmM4VwNueXRCCmDdzHLfYMavLjpSE2Zvb3psZXI4M0BnbWFpbC5jb21YBAAAAAA~>
[image: Article Image]

Rachel Mummey for The New York Times
<https://nl.nytimes.com/f/newsletter/D47JXNI3YYGPfvsMA6nM6g~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRiwffMP0TeaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubnl0aW1lcy5jb20vMjAyMS8wNy8wMi9jbGltYXRlL3RyZWVzLWNpdGllcy1oZWF0LXdhdmVzLmh0bWw_Y2FtcGFpZ25faWQ9MzQmZW1jPWVkaXRfc2NfMjAyMTA3MDImaW5zdGFuY2VfaWQ9MzQ0OTcmbmw9c2NpZW5jZS10aW1lcyZyZWdpX2lkPTY0MTU5Nzc2JnNlZ21lbnRfaWQ9NjI1MDUmdGU9MSZ1c2VyX2lkPTVlNzExMzliNzlhYjE0MzNkMDc3MTBkOGY4ODM1NmM4VwNueXRCCmDdzHLfYMavLjpSE2Zvb3psZXI4M0BnbWFpbC5jb21YBAAAAAA~>

A New Leaf
These superheroes could sharply reduce heat deaths. ?
<https://nl.nytimes.com/f/newsletter/D47JXNI3YYGPfvsMA6nM6g~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRiwffMP0TeaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubnl0aW1lcy5jb20vMjAyMS8wNy8wMi9jbGltYXRlL3RyZWVzLWNpdGllcy1oZWF0LXdhdmVzLmh0bWw_Y2FtcGFpZ25faWQ9MzQmZW1jPWVkaXRfc2NfMjAyMTA3MDImaW5zdGFuY2VfaWQ9MzQ0OTcmbmw9c2NpZW5jZS10aW1lcyZyZWdpX2lkPTY0MTU5Nzc2JnNlZ21lbnRfaWQ9NjI1MDUmdGU9MSZ1c2VyX2lkPTVlNzExMzliNzlhYjE0MzNkMDc3MTBkOGY4ODM1NmM4VwNueXRCCmDdzHLfYMavLjpSE2Zvb3psZXI4M0BnbWFpbC5jb21YBAAAAAA~>
[image: Article Image]
<https://nl.nytimes.com/f/a/rgnSzhN9_ICgT9u5wQuxTg~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRiwffMP0TiaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubnl0aW1lcy5jb20vaW50ZXJhY3RpdmUvMjAyMS8wNi8zMC9zY2llbmNlL21hcnMtY2hpbmEtbmFzYS5odG1sP2NhbXBhaWduX2lkPTM0JmVtYz1lZGl0X3NjXzIwMjEwNzAyJmluc3RhbmNlX2lkPTM0NDk3Jm5sPXNjaWVuY2UtdGltZXMmcmVnaV9pZD02NDE1OTc3NiZzZWdtZW50X2lkPTYyNTA1JnRlPTEmdXNlcl9pZD01ZTcxMTM5Yjc5YWIxNDMzZDA3NzEwZDhmODgzNTZjOFcDbnl0Qgpg3cxy32DGry46UhNmb296bGVyODNAZ21haWwuY29tWAQAAAAA>

Red Planet Selfies
You?ve never seen anything on Mars do this before. ?
<https://nl.nytimes.com/f/a/rgnSzhN9_ICgT9u5wQuxTg~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRiwffMP0TiaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubnl0aW1lcy5jb20vaW50ZXJhY3RpdmUvMjAyMS8wNi8zMC9zY2llbmNlL21hcnMtY2hpbmEtbmFzYS5odG1sP2NhbXBhaWduX2lkPTM0JmVtYz1lZGl0X3NjXzIwMjEwNzAyJmluc3RhbmNlX2lkPTM0NDk3Jm5sPXNjaWVuY2UtdGltZXMmcmVnaV9pZD02NDE1OTc3NiZzZWdtZW50X2lkPTYyNTA1JnRlPTEmdXNlcl9pZD01ZTcxMTM5Yjc5YWIxNDMzZDA3NzEwZDhmODgzNTZjOFcDbnl0Qgpg3cxy32DGry46UhNmb296bGVyODNAZ21haWwuY29tWAQAAAAA>
What we?re metabolizing lately

   - Please do not try to recycle your bowling ball
   <https://nl.nytimes.com/f/a/-5BWpOgRLvn9MtHjCu00Hw~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRiwffMP0TVaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuY3VyYmVkLmNvbS8yMDIxLzA2L3JlY3ljbGUtYm93bGluZy1iYWxscy1zaW1zLmh0bWw_Y2FtcGFpZ25faWQ9MzQmZW1jPWVkaXRfc2NfMjAyMTA3MDImaW5zdGFuY2VfaWQ9MzQ0OTcmbmw9c2NpZW5jZS10aW1lcyZyZWdpX2lkPTY0MTU5Nzc2JnNlZ21lbnRfaWQ9NjI1MDUmdGU9MSZ1c2VyX2lkPTVlNzExMzliNzlhYjE0MzNkMDc3MTBkOGY4ODM1NmM4VwNueXRCCmDdzHLfYMavLjpSE2Zvb3psZXI4M0BnbWFpbC5jb21YBAAAAAA~>
   .
   - Please do try to understand what the Delta variant of the coronavirus
   means for masking, vaccination and living your life
   <https://nl.nytimes.com/f/newsletter/9hlzwLhzK-eTWufn58yysw~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRiwffMP0TlaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubnl0aW1lcy5jb20vMjAyMS8wNi8zMC93ZWxsL2xpdmUvZGVsdGEtdmFyaWFudC12YWNjaW5lcy1tYXNrcy5odG1sP2NhbXBhaWduX2lkPTM0JmVtYz1lZGl0X3NjXzIwMjEwNzAyJmluc3RhbmNlX2lkPTM0NDk3Jm5sPXNjaWVuY2UtdGltZXMmcmVnaV9pZD02NDE1OTc3NiZzZWdtZW50X2lkPTYyNTA1JnRlPTEmdXNlcl9pZD01ZTcxMTM5Yjc5YWIxNDMzZDA3NzEwZDhmODgzNTZjOFcDbnl0Qgpg3cxy32DGry46UhNmb296bGVyODNAZ21haWwuY29tWAQAAAAA>
   .
   - How about a little political science? A great chart that shows how
   ranked-choice voting shook
   <https://nl.nytimes.com/f/a/fQCWXRBmKlhNt6fTJZbKng~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRiwffMP0TTaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuYmxvb21iZXJnLmNvbS9ncmFwaGljcy8yMDIxLW55Yy1tYXlvcmFsLXByaW1hcnkvP2NhbXBhaWduX2lkPTM0JmVtYz1lZGl0X3NjXzIwMjEwNzAyJmluc3RhbmNlX2lkPTM0NDk3Jm5sPXNjaWVuY2UtdGltZXMmcmVnaV9pZD02NDE1OTc3NiZzZWdtZW50X2lkPTYyNTA1JnRlPTEmdXNlcl9pZD01ZTcxMTM5Yjc5YWIxNDMzZDA3NzEwZDhmODgzNTZjOFcDbnl0Qgpg3cxy32DGry46UhNmb296bGVyODNAZ21haWwuY29tWAQAAAAA>
   out in New York City?s complicated Democratic mayoral primary election.
   - Are you being pursued through the forest by a hungry bear? Maybe math
   can save you
   <https://nl.nytimes.com/f/a/3zjY-1tLnmg9r2qjXElt7A~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRiwffMP0TmaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cucXVhbnRhbWFnYXppbmUub3JnL2Nhbi1tYXRoLWhlbHAteW91LWVzY2FwZS1hLWh1bmdyeS1iZWFyLTIwMjEwNjI5Lz9jYW1wYWlnbl9pZD0zNCZlbWM9ZWRpdF9zY18yMDIxMDcwMiZpbnN0YW5jZV9pZD0zNDQ5NyZubD1zY2llbmNlLXRpbWVzJnJlZ2lfaWQ9NjQxNTk3NzYmc2VnbWVudF9pZD02MjUwNSZ0ZT0xJnVzZXJfaWQ9NWU3MTEzOWI3OWFiMTQzM2QwNzcxMGQ4Zjg4MzU2YzhXA255dEIKYN3Mct9gxq8uOlITZm9vemxlcjgzQGdtYWlsLmNvbVgEAAAAAA~~>
   .
   - 50 years ago this month, American automobile culture landed on the
   moon. A book by Earl Swift
   <https://nl.nytimes.com/f/a/wjCT52Vs7zCS0g5BDrIrmA~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRiwffMP0TZaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cub3V0c2lkZW9ubGluZS5jb20vMjQyNTA5NS9sdW5hci1yb3Zlci1hcG9sbG8tc3BhY2UtbHJ2P2NhbXBhaWduX2lkPTM0JmVtYz1lZGl0X3NjXzIwMjEwNzAyJmluc3RhbmNlX2lkPTM0NDk3Jm5sPXNjaWVuY2UtdGltZXMmcmVnaV9pZD02NDE1OTc3NiZzZWdtZW50X2lkPTYyNTA1JnRlPTEmdXNlcl9pZD01ZTcxMTM5Yjc5YWIxNDMzZDA3NzEwZDhmODgzNTZjOFcDbnl0Qgpg3cxy32DGry46UhNmb296bGVyODNAZ21haWwuY29tWAQAAAAA>
   looks at NASA?s Lunar Roving Vehicles, and how they really opened up the
   moon for the later group of Apollo astronauts.

More Newsletters You Might Like
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Jul  2 22:36:04 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2021 15:36:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] read this, Henry
In-Reply-To: <BB0D87EF-51C5-4F1F-9D11-963DE22ADE00@alumni.virginia.edu>
References: <003c01d76ef6$2fa96600$8efc3200$@rainier66.com>
 <BB0D87EF-51C5-4F1F-9D11-963DE22ADE00@alumni.virginia.edu>
Message-ID: <008c01d76f92$a4e1aa80$eea4ff80$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of Henry Rivera via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] read this, Henry

 

>?Spike, that is not an original idea unfortunately?

 

Ah, damn.  No matter how original I am, some sleazy prole has already come along before I got here and stole my idea.

 

I guess my other idea won?t work either:  apply for government financial assistance for medications, then fake a terminal case of erectile dysfunction.

 

spike 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Jul  2 23:22:07 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2021 18:22:07 -0500
Subject: [ExI] safety warning
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYDPFa6MnqYrBvyWbw4SRATfigY-WW4Dju=BZf99r=3XA@mail.gmail.com>

Normally I just skip those pages of warning, but read the one that came
with a set of steak knives.  It included:

Not for mortal combat.

bill w
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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Jul  2 23:33:55 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2021 16:33:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] read this, Henry
In-Reply-To: <008c01d76f92$a4e1aa80$eea4ff80$@rainier66.com>
References: <003c01d76ef6$2fa96600$8efc3200$@rainier66.com>
 <BB0D87EF-51C5-4F1F-9D11-963DE22ADE00@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <008c01d76f92$a4e1aa80$eea4ff80$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSOh0xZiEqQ-Or1RUFw=jRBNvkPBsu2jKq-P_mj+HXJCw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 3:37 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Ah, damn.  No matter how original I am, some sleazy prole has already come
> along before I got here and stole my idea.
>

Even the idea of stealing ideas, long before you were born.


> I guess my other idea won?t work either:  apply for government financial
> assistance for medications, then fake a terminal case of erectile
> dysfunction.
>

Ain't no such thing, and doctors know it.  Lots of men have lived long
lives with the ultimate erectile dysfunction: not having a penis.  See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuch .
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Fri Jul  2 23:56:17 2021
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2021 16:56:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] uncommon lols
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbUQw0Kjy5BPz-g1cVT68va4GJ26Va=1rF+jh4jpqUSEw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbUQw0Kjy5BPz-g1cVT68va4GJ26Va=1rF+jh4jpqUSEw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5E3AF2AD-6B55-4E6F-A5F5-80740256C839@gmail.com>

> On Jul 2, 2021, at 12:58 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> ?I know this one thing:  chickens won't lay as many eggs to rock as they will to Mozart.  Draw your own conclusions.  I can't imagine getting grant money to study this.  M

Well, my guess would be there would be a ready source of funding studies of this by the poultry industry. And that?s exactly what?s happened:

https://www.canadianpoultrymag.com/musical-barns-have-pay-offs-17249/

In fact, Bristol seems to have much invested in studying chickens:

http://www.bristol.ac.uk/vet-school/research/ciel/news/poultry-news/

Add to this, it seems like this would a relatively easy and cheap thing to study: chickens are easy to breed, raise and monitor, and they have relatively short life spans (compared to researchers). This is unlike studying, say, chimps or dolphins. (There are, of course, ethical concerns, but that?s another discussion.)

Regards,

Dan
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Jul  3 14:11:01 2021
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2021 15:11:01 +0100
Subject: [ExI] florida building collapse
In-Reply-To: <002301d76c58$83206860$89613920$@rainier66.com>
References: <001801d76c3d$1a96e320$4fc4a960$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNTdQD2j6K8=ja97COGV010oK4GwLaeicp6MviuPe4vPsw@mail.gmail.com>
 <004001d76c46$dcaf3760$960da620$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNRKg_3y46LHe6ZAGV+pbo1PBriNrSmM1=2qMDm=yPnKeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <000e01d76c4e$fddb1000$f9913000$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNTsU=RVuFtjue9EE8sfmVaOTxkFm4rgC--JyBD+ccxLbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002301d76c58$83206860$89613920$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhwZSRiw1_0RjveEemTqNwqLrsV3hhiX-6CM4ucgvSV9w@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 28 Jun 2021 at 21:05, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> I don?t think so.  Florida has very little underground anything.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


Looks like there may be more buildings in Miami from the 1970-80s that
now need considerable repair work done.

<https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/miami-beach/article252544473.html>
Quote:
North Miami Beach orders 10-story condo evacuated after report
declares it unsafe
July 02, 2021
The city of North Miami Beach ordered the 10-story Crestview Towers
Condominium to be immediately closed and evacuated Friday evening
after a building inspection report found it not safe for occupancy due
to structural and electrical issues, city officials said Friday night.
---------------

BillK


From giulio at gmail.com  Sat Jul  3 15:43:09 2021
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2021 17:43:09 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Futurist spaceflight meditations: SRI 2021 talk (video)
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyc2sZpUAADTttEJ6+e+WS+Qmkrnh1ofMKgnWFr02M30Hw@mail.gmail.com>

Futurist spaceflight meditations: SRI 2021 talk (video)

Watch this short video presentation of my book "Futurist spaceflight
meditations," and don't forget to post a review if you liked my book!

https://turingchurch.net/futurist-spaceflight-meditations-sri-2021-talk-video-87f409432f36

From avant at sollegro.com  Sat Jul  3 19:13:18 2021
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2021 12:13:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Starting school too early
Message-ID: <20210703121318.Horde.IAzfR_4q6VyqGaXjwU2sTPg@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>


Quoting William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>:

> The average age for the diagnosis of autism is a bit over four years of
> age.  For ADHD it's four. Medians.   Since these are medians the kids who
> get diagnosed much later, teen years for example, did not affect the
> average.  Draw your own conclusions.  So they start school on the average
> of two years after the average age at diagnosis of these two conditions.

Are your figures for median age of diagnosis international or just in the US?

> Also, the transition to the next Piaget stage will vary (how much I do not
> know).  Then too, Piaget's stage ideas have lost some support over the
> years.

I realize that. It is like Piaget and the "nature" psychologists have  
largely been forgotten. These days it is all about "nurture" as if  
every child is an infinitely malleable blank slate and could become as  
smart as Einstein, as talented as Mozart, and as athletic as Kobe  
Bryant if they are raised by a proverbial village and have access to  
the right teachers early enough. I, for one, am skeptical that the  
underlying biology has no effect on a child's development. Piaget may  
not have been entirely right, but he wasn't entirely wrong either.


> While I do not question the data (child psych not one of my areas) one year
> of difference in age should not cause the big effects they report.

One year of difference may not cause a big effect on an adult, but for  
children in the age group we are talking about, it is close to 14%-20%  
of their lives. Plus, since Piaget's time, we have discovered all  
manner of critical periods in early childhood development which are  
like windows of opportunity that if missed, result in the child  
lacking some functionality for their rest of their lives. Like when  
they sew one of a kitten's eyes closed for a few weeks, and even after  
they remove the stitches, the kitten can never see out of that one  
eye, even though eye is completely undamaged. Because of course, the  
neural circuitry for vision never develops for that one eye.

> Did
> they separate the children who had been to some sort of kindergarten before
> from the ones who had not?  Did not see that.  I did not do  a thorough
> study of the study.  I could have found more potential problems.

That is a good question. The authors do address preschool which does  
exist in Denmark but more as structured play rather any serious  
attempt at education. They say for example:

"Given that children who delay their school starting age are typically  
in home care or less formal preschool, they may benefit from an  
extended experience in relatively playful environments."

> All in all, we'll have to wait for replications before changing the start
> of school.     Typically a first study will feature larger effects than
> replications will.  Draw your own conclusions.    bill w

The authors claim to be replicating the results of earlier studies  
that were much smaller than their study of the 30,000 students that  
they followed up on. I am not sure if they observed larger or smaller  
effects than the previous study. My own observations are that,  
diagnosed or not, about 15% of middle-school students seem almost  
incapable of sitting at their desks and focusing on an academic task  
without an adult looking over their shoulder. At least the dyslexics  
TRY but the ADHD kids can't or won't.

Stuart LaForge


> On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 5:50 PM Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> So a new shot has been fired in the perennial debate between the
>> nature and nurture folks in educational psychology. According to a
>> massive corroborative study between Stanford University and the
>> government of Denmark, students who start school closer to 6 years of
>> age when they start school suffer from more ADHD/inattention, and
>> other mental health issues and difficulties in school than students
>> who don't start kindergarten until age 7.
>>
>> Interestingly, this corresponds to the transition between Piaget's
>> pre-operational stage where kids are prone to cognitive and social
>> emotional errors such as difficulties with concepts like number,
>> amount, centrism, conservation, animism, and egocentrism and his
>> concrete operational phase where children develop the ability to
>> logically reason in an accurate multidimensional fashion regarding
>> concrete objects and people (as opposed to imaginary friends). Sadly,
>> however, the study article does not reference Piaget.
>>
>> Could starting school too early be stunting a child's social and
>> emotional development by ending social play before the child has fully
>> worked out boundaries between self and others? Could this be at least
>> partly responsible for the world-wide epidemic of autism and ADHD that
>> antivaxxers are attributing to childhood vaccines?
>>
>> What say you psychogeeks, aspies, and parents?
>>
>>
>> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2015/10/07/delaying-kindergarten-until-age-7-offers-key-benefits-to-kids-study/
>>
>> https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w21610/w21610.pdf
>>
>>
>> Stuart LaForge



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Jul  3 22:30:40 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2021 17:30:40 -0500
Subject: [ExI] autism continued
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEa1-i_GreqmYAmmvrSE5_W-tqGQgb6X=J7MEv81LoX7AA@mail.gmail.com>

Please keep in mind that the age at which a diagnosis is made may correlate
little with the appearance of the actual symptoms.  Notice in the study
that the stronger the symptoms the earlier the diagnosis.  I diagnosed a
case over the phone.  The baby was two.  Did not speak.  When you tried to
hold it he arched his back to reduce the contact.  I guess they thought he
would grow out of it.  Not that it made any difference in therapy,  The
outlook is grim for early infantile autism.

This baby could have been diagnosed at 6 months or earlier, I reckon.  bill
w
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From giulio at gmail.com  Sun Jul  4 10:46:22 2021
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2021 12:46:22 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Terasem Space Day, July 20, 2021
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfKXgZA=arK1WKX_j=mGWX4Gq1NNbAjdGez3+nBNPKdFA@mail.gmail.com>

Terasem Space Day, July 20, 2021

The Terasem Space Day Colloquium 2021 will be held on Tuesday, July
20, 2021, the anniversary of Apollo 11, via Zoom. Speakers, agenda...

https://turingchurch.net/terasem-space-day-july-20-2021-705d75e485fc

From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Jul  4 13:00:43 2021
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2021 14:00:43 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Exxon Lobbyists reveal climate change denial tactics
Message-ID: <CAL_armgXMS5KQKJi_TQLHU3wjhJviuW+BJE6EmYacB-ybhivQw@mail.gmail.com>

Exxon Lobbyists Reveal in Secret Recordings How They Manipulate Politicians
and the Public
A sting by Greenpeace UK exposes how the company talks a big climate game
while ensuring nothing actually gets done.
Molly Taft    30 June 2021

Two lobbyists for Exxon have been caught on tape admitting how the company
manipulates politicians and the public. Among the damning admissions are
that the company views its advocacy for a carbon tax as little more than
?an advocacy tool? and that it once funded ?shadow groups? to fight climate
science.

https://gizmodo.com/exxon-lobbyists-reveal-in-secret-recordings-how-they-ma-1847205392

McCoy also told the interviewers that Exxon had poured money into ?shadow
groups? in order to fight against climate science. According to
Greenpeace?s release, this marks the first time that a sitting executive at
Exxon had admitted to the company?s role in funding dark money denier
efforts.

?There?s nothing illegal about that,? McCoy helpfully noted. ?We were
looking out for our investments, we were looking out for our shareholders.?

?No matter how much Exxon wants you to think they care about the climate
crisis, this shows as clear as day that the tiger hasn?t changed its
stripes,? Charlie Kronick, a senior climate campaigner with Greenpeace UK,
said in a release. ?The oil giant is still using every trick in the
lobbyist?s playbook to weaken or derail climate action in the U.S. We now
know for sure that Exxon?s support for a carbon tax is just a cynical ploy
based on their belief that it will never happen.?
---------------

BillK
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From max at maxmore.com  Sun Jul  4 19:12:27 2021
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2021 19:12:27 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Exxon Lobbyists reveal climate change denial tactics
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgXMS5KQKJi_TQLHU3wjhJviuW+BJE6EmYacB-ybhivQw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgXMS5KQKJi_TQLHU3wjhJviuW+BJE6EmYacB-ybhivQw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BYAPR06MB523974A133FADBB4ABF48ABBA01D9@BYAPR06MB5239.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2021/06/02/scientific-american-steps-in-it/
[https://i2.wp.com/wattsupwiththat.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Scientific-American-Featured.jpg?fit=600%2C416&ssl=1]<https://wattsupwiththat.com/2021/06/02/scientific-american-steps-in-it/>
Scientific American steps in it ? Watts Up With That?<https://wattsupwiththat.com/2021/06/02/scientific-american-steps-in-it/>
By Andy May. The left-wing Scientific American published a so-called review of Steven Koonin?s new book, Unsettled, by a number of prominent left-wing scientists.The article is headed by the mandatory sunset photo of steam coming out of powerplant chimneys. The article is not really a review, their substantive claims are very weak, it is really a hit piece to trash Koonin and his reputation ...
wattsupwiththat.com

________________________________
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> on behalf of BillK via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 4, 2021 6:00 AM
To: Extropy Chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: BillK <pharos at gmail.com>
Subject: [ExI] Exxon Lobbyists reveal climate change denial tactics

Exxon Lobbyists Reveal in Secret Recordings How They Manipulate Politicians and the Public
A sting by Greenpeace UK exposes how the company talks a big climate game while ensuring nothing actually gets done.
Molly Taft    30 June 2021

Two lobbyists for Exxon have been caught on tape admitting how the company manipulates politicians and the public. Among the damning admissions are that the company views its advocacy for a carbon tax as little more than ?an advocacy tool? and that it once funded ?shadow groups? to fight climate science.

https://gizmodo.com/exxon-lobbyists-reveal-in-secret-recordings-how-they-ma-1847205392

McCoy also told the interviewers that Exxon had poured money into ?shadow groups? in order to fight against climate science. According to Greenpeace?s release, this marks the first time that a sitting executive at Exxon had admitted to the company?s role in funding dark money denier efforts.

?There?s nothing illegal about that,? McCoy helpfully noted. ?We were looking out for our investments, we were looking out for our shareholders.?

?No matter how much Exxon wants you to think they care about the climate crisis, this shows as clear as day that the tiger hasn?t changed its stripes,? Charlie Kronick, a senior climate campaigner with Greenpeace UK, said in a release. ?The oil giant is still using every trick in the lobbyist?s playbook to weaken or derail climate action in the U.S. We now know for sure that Exxon?s support for a carbon tax is just a cynical ploy based on their belief that it will never happen.?
---------------

BillK
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Jul  7 00:54:29 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2021 19:54:29 -0500
Subject: [ExI] secular religion?
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY751LhkAy+zwvQUjk7zsXaC10edoHUrNQEYjC+Wwhxng@mail.gmail.com>

The idea of reparations to Blacks and Amerindians is based on the idea of
Original Sin, it just occurred to me.

bill w
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Jul  8 23:21:47 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2021 18:21:47 -0500
Subject: [ExI] truly ironic findings
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaT0w2KZMhoQ2FMian41w_SfzXtXeckLtjbcDSnuKXhnA@mail.gmail.com>

This study provides the first evidence that *glyphosate* and AMPA can
inhibit proliferation and promote apoptosis of cancer cells but not normal
cells, suggesting that they have potentials to be developed into a new
*anticancer* therapy
This is actually old news.  bill w
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From giulio at gmail.com  Fri Jul  9 09:25:50 2021
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2021 11:25:50 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Terasem Space Day, July 20 - Zoom coordinates, agenda
Message-ID: <CAKTCJydM=TSFrubzW6rN3oWs5-PXFFXd7ZPMx8ZrdBweKDtsVA@mail.gmail.com>

Terasem Space Day, July 20 - Zoom coordinates, agenda

The Terasem Space Day Colloquium 2021 will be held on Tuesday, July 20,
2021, the anniversary of Apollo 11, via Zoom. Zoom access coordinates,
speakers, agenda...

https://turingchurch.net/terasem-space-day-july-20-2021-705d75e485fc
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 11 14:16:57 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2021 09:16:57 -0500
Subject: [ExI] antiscience?
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbXR2=5qy203OV=pyk9u4PC-K4H7LUwFeMOsMX4ecm8pg@mail.gmail.com>

There are millions of people who won't get vaccinations, Covid or
otherwise, despite recommendations from top scientists.  Are they
antiscience?

Maybe not.  I read of people saying things like "I hear horror stories....."

So while we may think of this as a bit too paranoid, they are duly
concerned that they are not being told the whole story.  This idea has
persisted in UFO stories. (the government has released a lot of that and
people are still saying they aren't being told the whole truth).

It's true that we aren't told by doctors the full extent of what can happen
to us when we take a pill or undergo some procedure.  If they did, many
more people would opt out.  Did you ever read all the possible side
effects of taking aspirin?  Horror story for sure.  Many people would quit
taking it, along with just about every drug there is.  Of course the idea
for people like us is the probability of these things happening.  We can
judge for ourselves - mostly. We know that getting a shot of penicillin is
almost totally safe. But probability has beens shown in recent years not to
be understood by most people, including physicians.  The average person has
no chance.  They avoided airplanes after 9/11 and so many more people died
in car wrecks than would have died in airplane crashes.

Now you will say that people are placing more faith in gossip than in
medical journals.  And they are - most of them can't interpret medical
journals or probability, as noted above.

Then there's this:  in a way we are asking people to take a shot to protect
others as well as themselves.  This is asking a lot of selfish human
beings, who have read that the virus is mostly no big deal - in some cases
without symptoms.  And the fatality rate is low.

While I reckon that many people are antiscience, I would not accuse the
average person of it who doesn't get the vaccines.    It's just more
complicated than that.  bill w
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Jul 11 15:13:43 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2021 08:13:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] antiscience?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbXR2=5qy203OV=pyk9u4PC-K4H7LUwFeMOsMX4ecm8pg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbXR2=5qy203OV=pyk9u4PC-K4H7LUwFeMOsMX4ecm8pg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001301d77667$572090a0$0561b1e0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: [ExI] antiscience?

 

>?There are millions of people who won't get vaccinations, Covid or otherwise, despite recommendations from top scientists.  Are they antiscience? bill w

 

 

No.  There are some whose circumstances very clearly justify refusing the vaccine.  Consider those who live alone and never go out.  Groceries and supplies are delivered contactless.  In order to get the vaccine, they must go out and mingle with other people who might be infected.  They pose no risk to others in their own homes.  OK so? not that many, but I personally know two in those circumstances.  

 

We are told the federal government plans to go door to door inquiring.  I am vaccinated, but if they show up, I intend to show them a copy of the constitution and point to the 4th amendment.  They have no right to the information they ask.  So? they won?t get it.  Sure I could play along, but I see more risk in the government taking liberties with the constitution than benefit in finding people who are not vaccinated.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

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From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Jul 11 15:19:28 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2021 08:19:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] antiscience?
In-Reply-To: <001301d77667$572090a0$0561b1e0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbXR2=5qy203OV=pyk9u4PC-K4H7LUwFeMOsMX4ecm8pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001301d77667$572090a0$0561b1e0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQpNWb2XvS2-V9Xb9gv2z7FOZg0O0zANyg4rnozo-AVUg@mail.gmail.com>

Many of the refusers are essentially antiscience but not all.  I know one
person who was allergic to some of the ingredients in the Moderna vaccine
so she had to wait until the J&J one became available in her area.

On Sun, Jul 11, 2021, 8:15 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* [ExI] antiscience?
>
>
>
> >?There are millions of people who won't get vaccinations, Covid or
> otherwise, despite recommendations from top scientists.  Are they antiscienc
> e? bill w
>
>
>
>
>
> No.  There are some whose circumstances very clearly justify refusing the
> vaccine.  Consider those who live alone and never go out.  Groceries and
> supplies are delivered contactless.  In order to get the vaccine, they must
> go out and mingle with other people who might be infected.  They pose no
> risk to others in their own homes.  OK so? not that many, but I personally
> know two in those circumstances.
>
>
>
> We are told the federal government plans to go door to door inquiring.  I
> am vaccinated, but if they show up, I intend to show them a copy of the
> constitution and point to the 4th amendment.  They have no right to the
> information they ask.  So? they won?t get it.  Sure I could play along, but
> I see more risk in the government taking liberties with the constitution
> than benefit in finding people who are not vaccinated.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 11 15:45:15 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2021 10:45:15 -0500
Subject: [ExI] antiscience?
In-Reply-To: <001301d77667$572090a0$0561b1e0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbXR2=5qy203OV=pyk9u4PC-K4H7LUwFeMOsMX4ecm8pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001301d77667$572090a0$0561b1e0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbYG8rVr6HoV175Sb_52pXBoVgFEM9OR_hnGD_NZyuDqg@mail.gmail.com>

I have to ask: what is it that you find unreasonable about it?  Of course
they don't have a 'right' to the info, but it seems harmless to me.  How
could anyone use it to harm you?  I do not think that you will be teaching
them a lesson.  You will just be regarded as a crank.   bill w

On Sun, Jul 11, 2021 at 10:15 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* [ExI] antiscience?
>
>
>
> >?There are millions of people who won't get vaccinations, Covid or
> otherwise, despite recommendations from top scientists.  Are they antiscienc
> e? bill w
>
>
>
>
>
> No.  There are some whose circumstances very clearly justify refusing the
> vaccine.  Consider those who live alone and never go out.  Groceries and
> supplies are delivered contactless.  In order to get the vaccine, they must
> go out and mingle with other people who might be infected.  They pose no
> risk to others in their own homes.  OK so? not that many, but I personally
> know two in those circumstances.
>
>
>
> We are told the federal government plans to go door to door inquiring.  I
> am vaccinated, but if they show up, I intend to show them a copy of the
> constitution and point to the 4th amendment.  They have no right to the
> information they ask.  So? they won?t get it.  Sure I could play along, but
> I see more risk in the government taking liberties with the constitution
> than benefit in finding people who are not vaccinated.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From zoielsoy at gmail.com  Sun Jul 11 16:24:46 2021
From: zoielsoy at gmail.com (Angel Z. Lopez)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2021 12:24:46 -0400
Subject: [ExI] antiscience?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbXR2=5qy203OV=pyk9u4PC-K4H7LUwFeMOsMX4ecm8pg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbXR2=5qy203OV=pyk9u4PC-K4H7LUwFeMOsMX4ecm8pg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALHxhTRdViumMkzduk5MvzRiu3GGNCD5djkGxUmTUiw2zDXgVw@mail.gmail.com>

they're people that simply rather live without the recommendation of "top
scientists" & government funded projects. To be told what you need to do &
take at specific times in specific places by specific companies is much
like a chicken in a coop.

On Sun, Jul 11, 2021 at 10:18 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> There are millions of people who won't get vaccinations, Covid or
> otherwise, despite recommendations from top scientists.  Are they
> antiscience?
>
> Maybe not.  I read of people saying things like "I hear horror
> stories....."
>
> So while we may think of this as a bit too paranoid, they are duly
> concerned that they are not being told the whole story.  This idea has
> persisted in UFO stories. (the government has released a lot of that and
> people are still saying they aren't being told the whole truth).
>
> It's true that we aren't told by doctors the full extent of what can
> happen to us when we take a pill or undergo some procedure.  If they did,
> many more people would opt out.  Did you ever read all the possible side
> effects of taking aspirin?  Horror story for sure.  Many people would quit
> taking it, along with just about every drug there is.  Of course the idea
> for people like us is the probability of these things happening.  We can
> judge for ourselves - mostly. We know that getting a shot of penicillin is
> almost totally safe. But probability has beens shown in recent years not to
> be understood by most people, including physicians.  The average person has
> no chance.  They avoided airplanes after 9/11 and so many more people died
> in car wrecks than would have died in airplane crashes.
>
> Now you will say that people are placing more faith in gossip than in
> medical journals.  And they are - most of them can't interpret medical
> journals or probability, as noted above.
>
> Then there's this:  in a way we are asking people to take a shot to
> protect others as well as themselves.  This is asking a lot of selfish
> human beings, who have read that the virus is mostly no big deal - in some
> cases without symptoms.  And the fatality rate is low.
>
> While I reckon that many people are antiscience, I would not accuse the
> average person of it who doesn't get the vaccines.    It's just more
> complicated than that.  bill w
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Jul 11 21:06:23 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2021 14:06:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] antiscience?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbYG8rVr6HoV175Sb_52pXBoVgFEM9OR_hnGD_NZyuDqg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbXR2=5qy203OV=pyk9u4PC-K4H7LUwFeMOsMX4ecm8pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001301d77667$572090a0$0561b1e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbYG8rVr6HoV175Sb_52pXBoVgFEM9OR_hnGD_NZyuDqg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006001d77698$9b6e4280$d24ac780$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] antiscience?

 

>?I have to ask: what is it that you find unreasonable about it?  Of course they don't have a 'right' to the info, but it seems harmless to me.  How could anyone use it to harm you?  I do not think that you will be teaching them a lesson.  You will just be regarded as a crank.   bill w

 

 

Billw, I don?t mind being seen as a crank in our times in which the 4th amendment is being eroded at a most alarming rate.  We caught the FBI falsifying evidence in order to get a secret surveillance warrant on an American citizen (Carter Page.)  The guy who did it never served a minute in prison.  We now have every reason to think the NSA is routinely collecting private discussions by US citizens, and yet now there isn?t even a trial.  The fed needs to be reminded that they don?t come to people?s homes and ask anything, unless they have a warrant.  They are out of line.  They don?t get special privileges or powers on account of a pandemic.

 

But think about it, suppose they do that, come to someone?s home, then? what?  They ask if the residents have been vaccinated, I say none of their business.  But what if it is a neighbor, who says no.  Then what?  They do? what?  There is nothing they can do legally.  They can?t make people take a vaccine that isn?t even approved by the FDA.  But if it is subsequently approved by the FDA, the fed still doesn?t have the authority to compel citizens to take it.  So why ask?  Just showing up at my door is a violation of my 4th amendment rights, and it accomplishes nothing.

 

spike

 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 11 21:29:29 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2021 16:29:29 -0500
Subject: [ExI] antiscience?
In-Reply-To: <006001d77698$9b6e4280$d24ac780$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbXR2=5qy203OV=pyk9u4PC-K4H7LUwFeMOsMX4ecm8pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001301d77667$572090a0$0561b1e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbYG8rVr6HoV175Sb_52pXBoVgFEM9OR_hnGD_NZyuDqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <006001d77698$9b6e4280$d24ac780$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZ9K0-uhZVUnZN6E9HqfLbuVe6kV7vWtzyvE_bANdbEiw@mail.gmail.com>

Suppose it had been the CDC on the phone doing a survey?   bill w

On Sun, Jul 11, 2021 at 4:08 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] antiscience?
>
>
>
> >?I have to ask: what is it that you find unreasonable about it?  Of
> course they don't have a 'right' to the info, but it seems harmless to me.
> How could anyone use it to harm you?  I do not think that you will be
> teaching them a lesson.  You will just be regarded as a crank.   bill w
>
>
>
>
>
> Billw, I don?t mind being seen as a crank in our times in which the 4th
> amendment is being eroded at a most alarming rate.  We caught the FBI
> falsifying evidence in order to get a secret surveillance warrant on an
> American citizen (Carter Page.)  The guy who did it never served a minute
> in prison.  We now have every reason to think the NSA is routinely
> collecting private discussions by US citizens, and yet now there isn?t even
> a trial.  The fed needs to be reminded that they don?t come to people?s
> homes and ask anything, unless they have a warrant.  They are out of line.
> They don?t get special privileges or powers on account of a pandemic.
>
>
>
> But think about it, suppose they do that, come to someone?s home, then?
> what?  They ask if the residents have been vaccinated, I say none of their
> business.  But what if it is a neighbor, who says no.  Then what?  They do?
> what?  There is nothing they can do legally.  They can?t make people take a
> vaccine that isn?t even approved by the FDA.  But if it is subsequently
> approved by the FDA, the fed still doesn?t have the authority to compel
> citizens to take it.  So why ask?  Just showing up at my door is a
> violation of my 4th amendment rights, and it accomplishes nothing.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Jul 11 21:37:33 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2021 14:37:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] antiscience?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZ9K0-uhZVUnZN6E9HqfLbuVe6kV7vWtzyvE_bANdbEiw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbXR2=5qy203OV=pyk9u4PC-K4H7LUwFeMOsMX4ecm8pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001301d77667$572090a0$0561b1e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbYG8rVr6HoV175Sb_52pXBoVgFEM9OR_hnGD_NZyuDqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <006001d77698$9b6e4280$d24ac780$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ9K0-uhZVUnZN6E9HqfLbuVe6kV7vWtzyvE_bANdbEiw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007701d7769c$f63fc8b0$e2bf5a10$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] antiscience?

 

>?Suppose it had been the CDC on the phone doing a survey?   bill w

 

 

How would we know if it is really the CDC?  I would ask them to send me a query through the US post office, with a stamped return envelope.

 

spike

 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 11 21:41:02 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2021 16:41:02 -0500
Subject: [ExI] antiscience?
In-Reply-To: <007701d7769c$f63fc8b0$e2bf5a10$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbXR2=5qy203OV=pyk9u4PC-K4H7LUwFeMOsMX4ecm8pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001301d77667$572090a0$0561b1e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbYG8rVr6HoV175Sb_52pXBoVgFEM9OR_hnGD_NZyuDqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <006001d77698$9b6e4280$d24ac780$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ9K0-uhZVUnZN6E9HqfLbuVe6kV7vWtzyvE_bANdbEiw@mail.gmail.com>
 <007701d7769c$f63fc8b0$e2bf5a10$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY-Qb3qNYPmU9Z_kuY_CiP=ZKsMhXNzYVf8by0w=U=bDg@mail.gmail.com>

I think the question of how you are harmed is still open. (sometimes you
remind me of a blowfish! LOL)  bill w

On Sun, Jul 11, 2021 at 4:39 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] antiscience?
>
>
>
> >?Suppose it had been the CDC on the phone doing a survey?   bill w
>
>
>
>
>
> How would we know if it is really the CDC?  I would ask them to send me a
> query through the US post office, with a stamped return envelope.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Jul 12 00:27:46 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2021 17:27:46 -0700
Subject: [ExI] antiscience?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEY-Qb3qNYPmU9Z_kuY_CiP=ZKsMhXNzYVf8by0w=U=bDg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbXR2=5qy203OV=pyk9u4PC-K4H7LUwFeMOsMX4ecm8pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001301d77667$572090a0$0561b1e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbYG8rVr6HoV175Sb_52pXBoVgFEM9OR_hnGD_NZyuDqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <006001d77698$9b6e4280$d24ac780$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ9K0-uhZVUnZN6E9HqfLbuVe6kV7vWtzyvE_bANdbEiw@mail.gmail.com>
 <007701d7769c$f63fc8b0$e2bf5a10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEY-Qb3qNYPmU9Z_kuY_CiP=ZKsMhXNzYVf8by0w=U=bDg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002601d776b4$bd3559a0$37a00ce0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] antiscience?

 

>?I think the question of how you are harmed is still open. (sometimes you remind me of a blowfish! LOL)  bill w

 

If our own government takes lightly the restrictions in the constitution, or treats them as guidelines or suggestions, we are all harmed.  May we all be blowfish.

 

spike

 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Jul 12 01:02:26 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2021 20:02:26 -0500
Subject: [ExI] antiscience?
In-Reply-To: <002601d776b4$bd3559a0$37a00ce0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbXR2=5qy203OV=pyk9u4PC-K4H7LUwFeMOsMX4ecm8pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001301d77667$572090a0$0561b1e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbYG8rVr6HoV175Sb_52pXBoVgFEM9OR_hnGD_NZyuDqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <006001d77698$9b6e4280$d24ac780$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ9K0-uhZVUnZN6E9HqfLbuVe6kV7vWtzyvE_bANdbEiw@mail.gmail.com>
 <007701d7769c$f63fc8b0$e2bf5a10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEY-Qb3qNYPmU9Z_kuY_CiP=ZKsMhXNzYVf8by0w=U=bDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <002601d776b4$bd3559a0$37a00ce0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYZ0wefvrXif7bBnjio-AC3sRSt9YCZOdGbcXs_7=8yJQ@mail.gmail.com>

Aside from police type people, who in a government position is welcome at
your door?

On Sun, Jul 11, 2021 at 7:29 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] antiscience?
>
>
>
> >?I think the question of how you are harmed is still open. (sometimes
> you remind me of a blowfish! LOL)  bill w
>
>
>
> If our own government takes lightly the restrictions in the constitution,
> or treats them as guidelines or suggestions, we are all harmed.  May we all
> be blowfish.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Jul 12 04:26:16 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2021 21:26:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] antiscience?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYZ0wefvrXif7bBnjio-AC3sRSt9YCZOdGbcXs_7=8yJQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbXR2=5qy203OV=pyk9u4PC-K4H7LUwFeMOsMX4ecm8pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001301d77667$572090a0$0561b1e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbYG8rVr6HoV175Sb_52pXBoVgFEM9OR_hnGD_NZyuDqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <006001d77698$9b6e4280$d24ac780$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ9K0-uhZVUnZN6E9HqfLbuVe6kV7vWtzyvE_bANdbEiw@mail.gmail.com>
 <007701d7769c$f63fc8b0$e2bf5a10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEY-Qb3qNYPmU9Z_kuY_CiP=ZKsMhXNzYVf8by0w=U=bDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <002601d776b4$bd3559a0$37a00ce0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYZ0wefvrXif7bBnjio-AC3sRSt9YCZOdGbcXs_7=8yJQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002401d776d6$0ed57cb0$2c807610$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] antiscience?

 

>?Aside from police type people, who in a government position is welcome at your door?

 

The census taker.  We like that guy.

 

spike

 

 

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From sparge at gmail.com  Mon Jul 12 13:14:10 2021
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2021 09:14:10 -0400
Subject: [ExI] antiscience?
In-Reply-To: <CALHxhTRdViumMkzduk5MvzRiu3GGNCD5djkGxUmTUiw2zDXgVw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbXR2=5qy203OV=pyk9u4PC-K4H7LUwFeMOsMX4ecm8pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALHxhTRdViumMkzduk5MvzRiu3GGNCD5djkGxUmTUiw2zDXgVw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2cNAHL6XZGQuFPv=p--Rex-bm=jOKGx6w0qv6Zv0YiseA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 11, 2021 at 12:26 PM Angel Z. Lopez via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> they're people that simply rather live without the recommendation of "top
> scientists" & government funded projects. To be told what you need to do &
> take at specific times in specific places by specific companies is much
> like a chicken in a coop.
>

If a scientist or the government tells them they need to breathe will they
hold their breath? Will they starve if they're told they should eat?

If you have a legitimate reason not to vaccinate, that's not antiscience.

If you know the risks and choose not to vaccinate for no good reason,
that's probably not smart.

If you don't believe the risks or fear the vaccine for some handwavy reason
like the-government-wants-me-to-take-it-so-it-must-be-evil or
the-Constitution-doesn't-require-me-to-take-it, then, yeah, you're
antiscience/antireason/antirationality.

-Dave
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Jul 12 16:11:48 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2021 11:11:48 -0500
Subject: [ExI] quora question
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY10BuAOR=RxoWEnLBtXpmGxBHniJRtZ8=x1ETjhHoFpQ@mail.gmail.com>

I thought I'd throw this one at the groups:

 what are most people oblivious to in today?s world?
<https://www.quora.com/qemail/track_click?al_imp=eyJ0eXBlIjogMzUsICJoYXNoIjogMTI5MDcwNTQ5OH0%3D&al_pri=1&aoid=XGm0ceW1ooy&aoty=2&aty=4&cp=1&ct=1626049127610049&et=103&id=1d9031436b9f44bd9728ad1afa95fba3&request_id=289&src=1&st=1626049127623762&stories=23580731289&uid=zGWPcMS0Aej&v=0>
<https://www.quora.com/qemail/track_click?al_imp=eyJ0eXBlIjogMzUsICJoYXNoIjogMTI5MDcwNTQ5OH0%3D&al_pri=1&aoid=XGm0ceW1ooy&aoty=2&aty=4&cp=1&ct=1626049127610049&et=103&id=1d9031436b9f44bd9728ad1afa95fba3&request_id=289&src=1&st=1626049127623762&stories=23580731289&uid=zGWPcMS0Aej&v=0>bill
w
<https://www.quora.com/qemail/track_click?al_imp=eyJ0eXBlIjogMzUsICJoYXNoIjogMTI5MDcwNTQ5OH0%3D&al_pri=1&aoid=XGm0ceW1ooy&aoty=2&aty=4&cp=1&ct=1626049127610049&et=103&id=1d9031436b9f44bd9728ad1afa95fba3&request_id=289&src=1&st=1626049127623762&stories=23580731289&uid=zGWPcMS0Aej&v=0>

This email was sent by Quora (605 Castro Street, Mountain View, CA 94041).If
you don't want to receive this type of email in the future, please
unsubscribe
<https://www.quora.com/email_optout/notif_unsubscribe?snid=23580731289&t=1626049127636394&token=aeb86cfd6e733f408286c789d530c36c33b4306be830e9293ae4b4f0124b70aa38a76fc585fbce7bf4254f4645d39a5d6f98df0698e9404303a3931d2b3630db&type=289&uid=405033796>
.https://www.quora.com/
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Jul 13 20:25:08 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 15:25:08 -0500
Subject: [ExI] now this IS stupid
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbsXiGm=8t2r16hSiQBKiF30Wn0NUyoRKQ1fB3S_F1oJw@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/13/us/michelle-fiscus-tennessee-vaccine.html
?

bill w
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Jul 13 23:10:11 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 18:10:11 -0500
Subject: [ExI] takeoff on Pascal's Wager
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYjLC92iUaSfVfJP4DnUMgHiLtrGoxwztz3aLEg+anDcw@mail.gmail.com>

Two possibilities: things are completely determined; they are not. If you
believe the first one and do nothing to avoid danger and your belief is
wrong, then you increase the probability of harm to yourself. If you
believe the second one and you are wrong, there is no harm to you that
comes out of it. This is similar to Pascal?s wager.

my answer on Quora   bill w
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Jul 16 00:23:24 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2021 19:23:24 -0500
Subject: [ExI] book
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZahgLTnWrOAq3gRiYA3ZNtp7wO-xHsn7FvzGWVq7UkDQ@mail.gmail.com>

Have not finished it, but any book by Kahneman is a 5 star recommendation.

'Noise' - Kahneman, Sibony, and Sunstein

bill w
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Jul 16 20:30:29 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2021 15:30:29 -0500
Subject: [ExI] determinism
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZNfq-m9DUK+e0-HhKUPdix_RcLWaomF-KBOQ2-6+L2jg@mail.gmail.com>

There has to be at least some determinism.  Free Will, whatever it may be,
cannot prevent the environment from making changes in us, like solar rays
causing a mutation in us, or some toxin giving us cancer.  These things can
also affect us mentally - some toxins will lower IQ or make us depressed.
Free will can come in in our choices as to what toxins to expose ourselves
to, such as staying inside and wearing SPF of 50 when we go out.  Some are
unavoidable.  bill w
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From john at ziaspace.com  Sun Jul 18 13:29:18 2021
From: john at ziaspace.com (john at ziaspace.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2021 13:29:18 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ExI] It's a bit too quiet right now...
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.64.2107181328440.15202@sparky.zia.io>

Just a test message because things have been so quiet lately...

John

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 18 14:23:25 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2021 09:23:25 -0500
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] determinism
In-Reply-To: <CCF5E2A9-9601-45E8-9C96-5731AA9DC140@gmail.com>
References: <CAH=2ypXqB-CenEAFS_Ovne3BeSjrxDr+AjibOVXYfQ9T60zOKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CCF5E2A9-9601-45E8-9C96-5731AA9DC140@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEb29c+BCBLVXR+y8sfuU_Jxwd2UY+Z8fLLuiUg2AO3ebg@mail.gmail.com>

In some jury trials a judge can decide to split the cause:  like the
company was 60% responsible and the person was 40% responsible.  That's
splitting the determining factors.   bill w

On Sun, Jul 18, 2021 at 8:39 AM SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:

> So they?re determined except that they aren?t. That?s not very clear. If
> they?re determined, like Pavlov?s dog, we only have the illusion of choice.
>
> If by ?determined?, you mean influenced, then sure, I?d say that free will
> and determinism are compatible. Otherwise I think it?s a bucket of hogwash.
>
> If people really can?t ever control their actions, we need to radically
> change society, but we can?t, because everything is inevitable. Or maybe we
> will, because it?s inevitable.
>
> SR Ballard
>
> On Jul 17, 2021, at 10:00 PM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> ?
>
>
> On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 at 11:53, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Your unconscious mind alerts you to the fact that you could really use
>> some ice cream right now, so you get up and get it.  You do have a choice
>> as to whether you will get up and get it.  If you do, you can say that your
>> impulse caused your fetching the dessert - your hunger for that determined
>> your actions.  And involved a choice.  This is internal.  If you put
>> something away in the freezer and your eye hits the ice cream, you may grab
>> it and take it with you.  Not the determining factor is external but you
>> still had a choice.
>>
>> Now take Pavlov's dog:  after conditioning the dog salivates to the
>> bell.  It has no choice.  The dog and us cannot control our autonomic
>> nervous systems.  Here determinism is beyond our control - no choice.  bill
>> w
>>
>
> Yes, but the error is in saying that you don?t have a free choice if the
> choice is determined. All choices are determined, but some choices are
> determined by reflexes or by someone holding a gun to your head, and those
> are not free, while other choices are determined by what you want to do,
> and those are free.
>
> On Sat, Jul 17, 2021 at 8:32 PM SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Determined means you have no choice. It?s a foregone conclusion. That?s
>>> not a choice at all if it was impossible for you to pick something
>>> different.
>>>
>>> SR Ballard
>>>
>>> On Jul 17, 2021, at 7:22 PM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> ?
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 at 00:04, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> they could be determined by your preferences, values, knowledge of the
>>>> world and so on. You would behave in a chaotic and purposeless way   I
>>>> think that's a big non sequitur.  If my behaviors and thoughts were
>>>> determined by my values, etc.  It would be chaos?  My values lead to no
>>>> purpose?  Doesn't make any sense to me.   bill w
>>>>
>>>
>>> Sorry, there was a typo in my original reply. Libertarian free will
>>> requires that your actions be undetermined, but if your actions were
>>> undetermined they could NOT be determined by any psychological factors such
>>> as your preferences, values, knowledge of the world and so on. So this is a
>>> bad definition of free will: fortunately no-one has it, no-one thinks they
>>> have it, and no-one wants to have it. People who say that they believe they
>>> have it usually don?t understand the meaning of the words they are using,
>>> such as ?undetermined?.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 16, 2021 at 9:39 PM Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 17 Jul 2021 at 06:30, William Flynn Wallace <
>>>>> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> There has to be at least some determinism.  Free Will, whatever it
>>>>>> may be, cannot prevent the environment from making changes in us, like
>>>>>> solar rays causing a mutation in us, or some toxin giving us cancer.  These
>>>>>> things can also affect us mentally - some toxins will lower IQ or make us
>>>>>> depressed.  Free will can come in in our choices as to what toxins to
>>>>>> expose ourselves to, such as staying inside and wearing SPF of 50 when we
>>>>>> go out.  Some are unavoidable.  bill w
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Determinism is not exclusive of psychological factors. If your actions
>>>>> were undetermined, it would mean that they could be determined by your
>>>>> preferences, values, knowledge of the world and so on. You would behave in
>>>>> a chaotic and purposeless way and would be unable to function or survive.
>>>>> This is an absurd way to define free will, which is why most philosophers
>>>>> reject it.
>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>> Stathis Papaioannou
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>>> Groups "extropolis" group.
>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>>>> an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAH%3D2ypVz-J%2BaqF8%3D76aG6YjgnOuzH9oahex-GuYHPUBQcA%2Bwxw%40mail.gmail.com
>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAH%3D2ypVz-J%2BaqF8%3D76aG6YjgnOuzH9oahex-GuYHPUBQcA%2Bwxw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>> Groups "extropolis" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>>> an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAO%2BxQEYZPzTyg8esQ5E6xZffr66KeHysV1eBXBi9X5s5rJ3ggQ%40mail.gmail.com
>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAO%2BxQEYZPzTyg8esQ5E6xZffr66KeHysV1eBXBi9X5s5rJ3ggQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>> --
>>> Stathis Papaioannou
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "extropolis" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAH%3D2ypWbOg-mwhwJCKfoRsimuG6ZGe5UxXOaqig6UVDfyZKT9Q%40mail.gmail.com
>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAH%3D2ypWbOg-mwhwJCKfoRsimuG6ZGe5UxXOaqig6UVDfyZKT9Q%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>> .
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "extropolis" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/147191BF-EB09-4FDB-8468-C8C82F79A822%40gmail.com
>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/147191BF-EB09-4FDB-8468-C8C82F79A822%40gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>> .
>>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "extropolis" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAO%2BxQEYTDmMU0nxqNC916yYAmboOmzRXYKbpoGvmNRfAYAtNpw%40mail.gmail.com
>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAO%2BxQEYTDmMU0nxqNC916yYAmboOmzRXYKbpoGvmNRfAYAtNpw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>> .
>>
> --
> Stathis Papaioannou
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAH%3D2ypXqB-CenEAFS_Ovne3BeSjrxDr%2BAjibOVXYfQ9T60zOKA%40mail.gmail.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAH%3D2ypXqB-CenEAFS_Ovne3BeSjrxDr%2BAjibOVXYfQ9T60zOKA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CCF5E2A9-9601-45E8-9C96-5731AA9DC140%40gmail.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CCF5E2A9-9601-45E8-9C96-5731AA9DC140%40gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 18 14:25:18 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2021 09:25:18 -0500
Subject: [ExI] It's a bit too quiet right now...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.2107181328440.15202@sparky.zia.io>
References: <Pine.NEB.4.64.2107181328440.15202@sparky.zia.io>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaoU=T3MY9aHOpo1SaFmmJ=ynfcU2zNC3g20RX_bnZzAA@mail.gmail.com>

Well, John, start something.  Maybe we are having a summer lull.  I could
not even get something going by asking what most people are oblivious
about, and I thought that was a no-brainer to get people responding.   bill
w

On Sun, Jul 18, 2021 at 9:05 AM John Klos via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Just a test message because things have been so quiet lately...
>
> John
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Jul 18 16:09:08 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2021 09:09:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] quora question
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEY10BuAOR=RxoWEnLBtXpmGxBHniJRtZ8=x1ETjhHoFpQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEY10BuAOR=RxoWEnLBtXpmGxBHniJRtZ8=x1ETjhHoFpQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTG4naA7uqBz=kAFdn+Q803tYXw6bW_XxA8uf9unoRMkw@mail.gmail.com>

The likelihood that most people alive today will live substantially longer
than their parents.

On Sun, Jul 18, 2021, 6:38 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I thought I'd throw this one at the groups:
>
>  what are most people oblivious to in today?s world?
> <https://www.quora.com/qemail/track_click?al_imp=eyJ0eXBlIjogMzUsICJoYXNoIjogMTI5MDcwNTQ5OH0%3D&al_pri=1&aoid=XGm0ceW1ooy&aoty=2&aty=4&cp=1&ct=1626049127610049&et=103&id=1d9031436b9f44bd9728ad1afa95fba3&request_id=289&src=1&st=1626049127623762&stories=23580731289&uid=zGWPcMS0Aej&v=0>
>
> <https://www.quora.com/qemail/track_click?al_imp=eyJ0eXBlIjogMzUsICJoYXNoIjogMTI5MDcwNTQ5OH0%3D&al_pri=1&aoid=XGm0ceW1ooy&aoty=2&aty=4&cp=1&ct=1626049127610049&et=103&id=1d9031436b9f44bd9728ad1afa95fba3&request_id=289&src=1&st=1626049127623762&stories=23580731289&uid=zGWPcMS0Aej&v=0>bill
> w
>
> <https://www.quora.com/qemail/track_click?al_imp=eyJ0eXBlIjogMzUsICJoYXNoIjogMTI5MDcwNTQ5OH0%3D&al_pri=1&aoid=XGm0ceW1ooy&aoty=2&aty=4&cp=1&ct=1626049127610049&et=103&id=1d9031436b9f44bd9728ad1afa95fba3&request_id=289&src=1&st=1626049127623762&stories=23580731289&uid=zGWPcMS0Aej&v=0>
>
> This email was sent by Quora (605 Castro Street, Mountain View, CA 94041).If
> you don't want to receive this type of email in the future, please
> unsubscribe
> <https://www.quora.com/email_optout/notif_unsubscribe?snid=23580731289&t=1626049127636394&token=aeb86cfd6e733f408286c789d530c36c33b4306be830e9293ae4b4f0124b70aa38a76fc585fbce7bf4254f4645d39a5d6f98df0698e9404303a3931d2b3630db&type=289&uid=405033796>
> .https://www.quora.com/
> _______________________________________________
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From bronto at pobox.com  Sun Jul 18 17:39:47 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2021 10:39:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] determinism
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEb29c+BCBLVXR+y8sfuU_Jxwd2UY+Z8fLLuiUg2AO3ebg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH=2ypXqB-CenEAFS_Ovne3BeSjrxDr+AjibOVXYfQ9T60zOKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CCF5E2A9-9601-45E8-9C96-5731AA9DC140@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEb29c+BCBLVXR+y8sfuU_Jxwd2UY+Z8fLLuiUg2AO3ebg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1836fa97-bf6a-99fc-6b4e-4436b9407e25@pobox.com>

On 2021-7-18 07:23, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:
> In some jury trials a judge can decide to split the cause:? like the 
> company was 60% responsible and the person was 40% responsible.? That's 
> splitting the determining factors.? ?bill w

That's not a question for the jury?




(preserving the stuff below because it was evidently important to somebody)

>>>                     -- 
>>>                     You received this message because you are
>>>                     subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group.
>>>                     To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving
>>>                     emails from it, send an email to
>>>                     extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>>                     To view this discussion on the web visit
>>>                     https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAH%3D2ypVz-J%2BaqF8%3D76aG6YjgnOuzH9oahex-GuYHPUBQcA%2Bwxw%40mail.gmail.com.
>>>
>>>                 -- 
>>>                 You received this message because you are subscribed
>>>                 to the Google Groups "extropolis" group.
>>>                 To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving
>>>                 emails from it, send an email to
>>>                 extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>>                 To view this discussion on the web visit
>>>                 https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAO%2BxQEYZPzTyg8esQ5E6xZffr66KeHysV1eBXBi9X5s5rJ3ggQ%40mail.gmail.com.
>>>
>>>             -- 
>>>             Stathis Papaioannou
>>>
>>>             -- 
>>>             You received this message because you are subscribed to
>>>             the Google Groups "extropolis" group.
>>>             To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails
>>>             from it, send an email to
>>>             extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>>             To view this discussion on the web visit
>>>             https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAH%3D2ypWbOg-mwhwJCKfoRsimuG6ZGe5UxXOaqig6UVDfyZKT9Q%40mail.gmail.com.
>>
>>             -- 
>>             You received this message because you are subscribed to
>>             the Google Groups "extropolis" group.
>>             To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails
>>             from it, send an email to
>>             extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>             To view this discussion on the web visit
>>             https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/147191BF-EB09-4FDB-8468-C8C82F79A822%40gmail.com.
>>
>>         -- 
>>         You received this message because you are subscribed to the
>>         Google Groups "extropolis" group.
>>         To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
>>         it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>         To view this discussion on the web visit
>>         https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAO%2BxQEYTDmMU0nxqNC916yYAmboOmzRXYKbpoGvmNRfAYAtNpw%40mail.gmail.com.
>>
>>     -- 
>>     Stathis Papaioannou
>>
>>     -- 
>>     You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>     Groups "extropolis" group.
>>     To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>>     send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>     To view this discussion on the web visit
>>     https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAH%3D2ypXqB-CenEAFS_Ovne3BeSjrxDr%2BAjibOVXYfQ9T60zOKA%40mail.gmail.com.
> 
>     -- 
>     You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>     Groups "extropolis" group.
>     To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>     send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>     To view this discussion on the web visit
>     https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CCF5E2A9-9601-45E8-9C96-5731AA9DC140%40gmail.com.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 


-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org



From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Sun Jul 18 17:57:18 2021
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2021 13:57:18 -0400
Subject: [ExI] It's a bit too quiet right now...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.2107181328440.15202@sparky.zia.io>
References: <Pine.NEB.4.64.2107181328440.15202@sparky.zia.io>
Message-ID: <2FD1C915-F4E0-41FA-80A4-DBF8A17DAE67@gmail.com>

I?m reading a lot but it?s all either political, religious, or both ? none of which is really acceptable on the List. 

SR Ballard

> On Jul 18, 2021, at 10:05 AM, John Klos via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> ?Just a test message because things have been so quiet lately...
> 
> John
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 18 17:59:03 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2021 12:59:03 -0500
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] determinism
In-Reply-To: <1836fa97-bf6a-99fc-6b4e-4436b9407e25@pobox.com>
References: <CAH=2ypXqB-CenEAFS_Ovne3BeSjrxDr+AjibOVXYfQ9T60zOKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CCF5E2A9-9601-45E8-9C96-5731AA9DC140@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEb29c+BCBLVXR+y8sfuU_Jxwd2UY+Z8fLLuiUg2AO3ebg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1836fa97-bf6a-99fc-6b4e-4436b9407e25@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZ_b2xwjf6dKzeUbSJ5TbtGHDshUFpUpMUjnLc2tLkH=Q@mail.gmail.com>

Anton, I really don't know.  I have heard of judges' doing it.  I have
heard of both sides letting the judge do it, but I don't know if the usual
case is to let the jury do it.  Too lazy to look it up.  bill w

On Sun, Jul 18, 2021 at 12:57 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On 2021-7-18 07:23, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:
> > In some jury trials a judge can decide to split the cause:  like the
> > company was 60% responsible and the person was 40% responsible.  That's
> > splitting the determining factors.   bill w
>
> That's not a question for the jury?
>
>
>
>
> (preserving the stuff below because it was evidently important to somebody)
>
> >>>                     --
> >>>                     You received this message because you are
> >>>                     subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group.
> >>>                     To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving
> >>>                     emails from it, send an email to
> >>>                     extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> >>>                     To view this discussion on the web visit
> >>>
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAH%3D2ypVz-J%2BaqF8%3D76aG6YjgnOuzH9oahex-GuYHPUBQcA%2Bwxw%40mail.gmail.com
> .
> >>>
> >>>                 --
> >>>                 You received this message because you are subscribed
> >>>                 to the Google Groups "extropolis" group.
> >>>                 To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving
> >>>                 emails from it, send an email to
> >>>                 extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> >>>                 To view this discussion on the web visit
> >>>
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAO%2BxQEYZPzTyg8esQ5E6xZffr66KeHysV1eBXBi9X5s5rJ3ggQ%40mail.gmail.com
> .
> >>>
> >>>             --
> >>>             Stathis Papaioannou
> >>>
> >>>             --
> >>>             You received this message because you are subscribed to
> >>>             the Google Groups "extropolis" group.
> >>>             To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails
> >>>             from it, send an email to
> >>>             extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> >>>             To view this discussion on the web visit
> >>>
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAH%3D2ypWbOg-mwhwJCKfoRsimuG6ZGe5UxXOaqig6UVDfyZKT9Q%40mail.gmail.com
> .
> >>
> >>             --
> >>             You received this message because you are subscribed to
> >>             the Google Groups "extropolis" group.
> >>             To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails
> >>             from it, send an email to
> >>             extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> >>             To view this discussion on the web visit
> >>
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/147191BF-EB09-4FDB-8468-C8C82F79A822%40gmail.com
> .
> >>
> >>         --
> >>         You received this message because you are subscribed to the
> >>         Google Groups "extropolis" group.
> >>         To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
> >>         it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> >>         To view this discussion on the web visit
> >>
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAO%2BxQEYTDmMU0nxqNC916yYAmboOmzRXYKbpoGvmNRfAYAtNpw%40mail.gmail.com
> .
> >>
> >>     --
> >>     Stathis Papaioannou
> >>
> >>     --
> >>     You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> >>     Groups "extropolis" group.
> >>     To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> >>     send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> >>     To view this discussion on the web visit
> >>
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAH%3D2ypXqB-CenEAFS_Ovne3BeSjrxDr%2BAjibOVXYfQ9T60zOKA%40mail.gmail.com
> .
> >
> >     --
> >     You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> >     Groups "extropolis" group.
> >     To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> >     send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> >     To view this discussion on the web visit
> >
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CCF5E2A9-9601-45E8-9C96-5731AA9DC140%40gmail.com
> .
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
>
>
> --
> *\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 18 19:31:04 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2021 14:31:04 -0500
Subject: [ExI] It's a bit too quiet right now...
In-Reply-To: <2FD1C915-F4E0-41FA-80A4-DBF8A17DAE67@gmail.com>
References: <Pine.NEB.4.64.2107181328440.15202@sparky.zia.io>
 <2FD1C915-F4E0-41FA-80A4-DBF8A17DAE67@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaw5mB3iVTKW5_29YVeGzXkDKOsh5-qRDLDFpsoA2A+9w@mail.gmail.com>

I too am reading politics and religion, neither of which are forbidden or
even unpopular on this list.  In fact the other list was created for
politics and any other controversial topic anyone wants to post about.  I'd
love to discuss religions - not so much politics (I read about the politics
in the American Revolution and don't want any more of that garbage).  bill w

On Sun, Jul 18, 2021 at 1:03 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I?m reading a lot but it?s all either political, religious, or both ? none
> of which is really acceptable on the List.
>
> SR Ballard
>
> > On Jul 18, 2021, at 10:05 AM, John Klos via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > ?Just a test message because things have been so quiet lately...
> >
> > John
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Jul 18 19:40:24 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2021 12:40:24 -0700
Subject: [ExI] It's a bit too quiet right now...
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaw5mB3iVTKW5_29YVeGzXkDKOsh5-qRDLDFpsoA2A+9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.NEB.4.64.2107181328440.15202@sparky.zia.io>
 <2FD1C915-F4E0-41FA-80A4-DBF8A17DAE67@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaw5mB3iVTKW5_29YVeGzXkDKOsh5-qRDLDFpsoA2A+9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQzwnze324j2LYXxq6v2aNC34_epBiT0txHiNJM8h7Ljw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 18, 2021 at 12:33 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I too am reading politics and religion, neither of which are forbidden or
> even unpopular on this list.  In fact the other list was created for
> politics and any other controversial topic anyone wants to post about.  I'd
> love to discuss religions - not so much politics (I read about the politics
> in the American Revolution and don't want any more of that garbage).  bill w
>

Alright, then: how does one deprogram religious folks who believe their
holy book is 100% literally true, despite demonstrable internal consistency
errors rendering it logically impossible that the book's contents could be
100% literally true (even ignoring conflicts with observed evidence outside
the book)?
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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Sun Jul 18 20:01:10 2021
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2021 16:01:10 -0400
Subject: [ExI] It's a bit too quiet right now...
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQzwnze324j2LYXxq6v2aNC34_epBiT0txHiNJM8h7Ljw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNQzwnze324j2LYXxq6v2aNC34_epBiT0txHiNJM8h7Ljw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54484CA4-1AFC-44D5-8E28-35F4761032E2@gmail.com>

You cannot dislodge deeply held emotional beliefs via logic in highly emotional people. 

For example, I am very superstitious despite knowing very well that superstition is illogical. 

Their arguments are logical justification created after the fact, they?re not the reason for the belief. This is why they become so upset when you point out the flaws in logic ? they feel you are attacking their vulnerable emotional state rather than their logical justification. 

The only way is to reduce the emotions connected to the belief, or present a more emotionally compelling case. 

SR Ballard

> On Jul 18, 2021, at 3:42 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> ?
>> On Sun, Jul 18, 2021 at 12:33 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
>> I too am reading politics and religion, neither of which are forbidden or even unpopular on this list.  In fact the other list was created for politics and any other controversial topic anyone wants to post about.  I'd love to discuss religions - not so much politics (I read about the politics in the American Revolution and don't want any more of that garbage).  bill w
> 
> Alright, then: how does one deprogram religious folks who believe their holy book is 100% literally true, despite demonstrable internal consistency errors rendering it logically impossible that the book's contents could be 100% literally true (even ignoring conflicts with observed evidence outside the book)? 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Sun Jul 18 20:06:35 2021
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2021 16:06:35 -0400
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Has_anyone_read_=E2=80=9CBronze_Age_Mindset?=
 =?utf-8?b?4oCdIGJ5IEJBUD8=?=
Message-ID: <49816C2F-CE57-4805-83D1-7A3A6C45298B@gmail.com>

?Bronze Age Mindset? was self-published in 2018 and became an Amazon bestseller. It?s writer, ?Bronze Age Pervert? is a Twitter personality known for his alt-right dogma and his connections to a former White House speechwriter. It is currently considered one of the most influential alt-right books published in the last 5 years. 

Has anyone read it?

SR Ballard

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 18 20:47:36 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2021 15:47:36 -0500
Subject: [ExI] It's a bit too quiet right now...
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQzwnze324j2LYXxq6v2aNC34_epBiT0txHiNJM8h7Ljw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.NEB.4.64.2107181328440.15202@sparky.zia.io>
 <2FD1C915-F4E0-41FA-80A4-DBF8A17DAE67@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaw5mB3iVTKW5_29YVeGzXkDKOsh5-qRDLDFpsoA2A+9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQzwnze324j2LYXxq6v2aNC34_epBiT0txHiNJM8h7Ljw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEa2rCZE8Ek-cVNw-bQcrqmatmqmO4OZ_jRw+5q2kQzVyQ@mail.gmail.com>

Adrian, I am in the middle of a book which gets deeply into your question,
which I will not forget.  For the nonce:  good evidence that the religious
KNOW that the ideas they believe in are irrational and unsupported by
history or any other evidence.  Very tentative conclusion:  the beliefs are
nearly totally emotional in origin and as such are impervious to rational
arguments.  (If I do forget please remind me)   bill w

On Sun, Jul 18, 2021 at 2:42 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Sun, Jul 18, 2021 at 12:33 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> I too am reading politics and religion, neither of which are forbidden or
>> even unpopular on this list.  In fact the other list was created for
>> politics and any other controversial topic anyone wants to post about.  I'd
>> love to discuss religions - not so much politics (I read about the politics
>> in the American Revolution and don't want any more of that garbage).  bill w
>>
>
> Alright, then: how does one deprogram religious folks who believe their
> holy book is 100% literally true, despite demonstrable internal consistency
> errors rendering it logically impossible that the book's contents could be
> 100% literally true (even ignoring conflicts with observed evidence outside
> the book)?
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 18 20:53:09 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2021 15:53:09 -0500
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] OK, stupid or not stupid?
In-Reply-To: <D806CCE4-A103-4247-9603-FEF37571A984@gmail.com>
References: <2337C712-3FAA-4F9C-89C1-905FEA315B7E@gmail.com>
 <D806CCE4-A103-4247-9603-FEF37571A984@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZV3eO9odU1CXgksBX81s-QvK7WhwMGDx5TkKD0o-W_0A@mail.gmail.com>

Henry, this is my area and I should be contributing more to it:  attitude
change, persuasion, attitude formation, resistance to attitude change,
conformity, compliance, obedience, and so on.   Will finish that religious
book and try to put together a post.  bill w

On Sun, Jul 18, 2021 at 3:31 PM Henry Rivera, PsyD <
henryriverapsyd at gmail.com> wrote:

> Is this just the Darwin effect playing out? Nature weeding out from the
> genepool the ?stupid? and/or ?pretty average? or whatever their nonadaptive
> problem is in this case? If so, we will be collectively better off as a
> result ultimately, no? I?m asking opinions on this, not necessarily
> endorsing this to clarify.
>
> On Jul 18, 2021, at 3:57 PM, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ?I never called them intelligent either. I?d say they?re pretty average.
>
> SR Ballard
>
> On Jul 18, 2021, at 3:35 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ?
> On Sun, Jul 18, 2021 at 2:00 PM SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> *> Not stupid. *
>>
>
> Well let's see, they all have sufficient information to make an
> intelligent decision, in fact they have better information in this case
> than you or I do because they know from visceral first-hand experience that
> COVID-19 can be a very serious disease, and they have observed that every
> single one of their fellow COVID-19 patients in the emergency room hospital
> are unvaccinated just like themselves, and yet even after all that they
> were STILL unable to make an intelligent decision; so they must be lacking
> something, and the only thing I can think of is intelligence. Do you
> really want to call such behavior smart, is that the hill you want to die
> on?
>
> I don't think dreaming up lame excuses for people who insist on turning
> their bodies into petri dishes that cultivate viruses and generate mutations
> , some of which might end up being even more virulent than the current Delta
> variant, demonstrates broad-mindedness, and it certainly doesn't help
> those very stupid people or society at large. Logic will never convince
> them to get the vaccine because logic never played a part in their decision
> not to get it, but if logic doesn't work maybe social stigmatization will
> shame them to do so. Thus I firmly believe the moral thing to do is to give
> these people all the respect they deserve.
>
> John K Clark
>
>
>
>
>>
>> MOUNTAIN HOME, Ark. ? When the boat factory in this leafy Ozark Mountains
>> city offered free coronavirus vaccinations this spring, Susan Johnson, 62,
>> a receptionist there, declined the offer, figuring she was protected as
>> long as she never left her house without a mask.
>>
>> Linda Marion, 68, a widow with chronic pulmonary disease, worried that a
>> vaccination might actually trigger Covid-19 and kill her. Barbara
>> Billigmeier, 74, an avid golfer who retired here from California, believed
>> she did not need it because ?I never get sick.?
>>
>> Last week, all three were patients on 2 West, an overflow ward that is
>> now largely devoted to treating Covid-19 at Baxter Regional Medical Center,
>> the largest hospital in north-central Arkansas.
>>
>> Mrs. Billigmeier said the scariest part was that ?you can?t breathe.? For
>> 10 days, Ms. Johnson had relied on supplemental oxygen being fed to her
>> lungs through nasal tubes.
>>
>> Ms. Marion said that at one point, she felt so sick and frightened that
>> she wanted to give up. ?It was just terrible,? she said. ?I felt like I
>> couldn?t take it.?
>>
>> Yet despite their ordeals, none of them changed their minds about getting
>> vaccinated. ?It?s just too new,? Mrs. Billigmeier said. ?It is like an
>> experiment.?
>>
>>
>> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
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> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv0yNRosNM-2Yzd%2BTeUUOdN6Jt8YnM-Z6Sa0Cn%3D4aKdP9A%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
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> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/2337C712-3FAA-4F9C-89C1-905FEA315B7E%40gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
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> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/D806CCE4-A103-4247-9603-FEF37571A984%40gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 18 21:19:01 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2021 16:19:01 -0500
Subject: [ExI] book
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEasFefdO7cAcv-09-Vwyz9EVKVhenkKyw=tdHKZT9xB1w@mail.gmail.com>

FYI - the book on religion that I am reading is by a cultural
anthropologist and is encyclopedic in scope:

"In Gods We Trust: the Evolutionary Landscape of Religion"   bill w
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From bronto at pobox.com  Sun Jul 18 23:41:20 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2021 16:41:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] It's a bit too quiet right now...
In-Reply-To: <2FD1C915-F4E0-41FA-80A4-DBF8A17DAE67@gmail.com>
References: <Pine.NEB.4.64.2107181328440.15202@sparky.zia.io>
 <2FD1C915-F4E0-41FA-80A4-DBF8A17DAE67@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <91f01ce1-0275-0b1d-140d-460039566084@pobox.com>

On 2021-7-18 10:57, SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote:
> I?m reading a lot but it?s all either political, religious, or both ?
> none of which is really acceptable on the List.

You left out sex, fortunately because the last book I finished was ?Sex 
at Dawn?.  Thesis: When our ancestors lived by foraging in 
Dunbar-limited bands, they were as promiscuously randy as bonobos if not 
more so; various features of our anatomy and psychology point that way. 
  Agriculture wrecked not only our physical health but our mental 
health, at least in one respect.

An amusing observation: the pious may say that fucking for pleasure is 
behaving "like beasts", but no beast fucks nearly as often, in ratio to 
conceptions, as humans do.  So if we want to be un-beastly, we should 
fuck more, not less.

(Not that the advice is of any use to me.)

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org



From interzone at gmail.com  Mon Jul 19 00:00:29 2021
From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2021 20:00:29 -0400
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Has_anyone_read_=E2=80=9CBronze_Age_Mindset?=
	=?utf-8?b?4oCdIGJ5IEJBUD8=?=
In-Reply-To: <49816C2F-CE57-4805-83D1-7A3A6C45298B@gmail.com>
References: <49816C2F-CE57-4805-83D1-7A3A6C45298B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJrqPH-wBmTNoT9xTQaUba2dHHpui8L7HHVrpej82ogS3Mp3PQ@mail.gmail.com>

I've read some of it, but haven't gotten through close to the whole thing
yet.

On Sun, Jul 18, 2021, 4:07 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> ?Bronze Age Mindset? was self-published in 2018 and became an Amazon
> bestseller. It?s writer, ?Bronze Age Pervert? is a Twitter personality
> known for his alt-right dogma and his connections to a former White House
> speechwriter. It is currently considered one of the most influential
> alt-right books published in the last 5 years.
>
> Has anyone read it?
>
> SR Ballard
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Mon Jul 19 00:20:59 2021
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2021 20:20:59 -0400
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Has_anyone_read_=E2=80=9CBronze_Age_Mindset?=
 =?utf-8?b?4oCdIGJ5IEJBUD8=?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJrqPH-wBmTNoT9xTQaUba2dHHpui8L7HHVrpej82ogS3Mp3PQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJrqPH-wBmTNoT9xTQaUba2dHHpui8L7HHVrpej82ogS3Mp3PQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CE9E1D72-A059-4B8E-9A5D-E71C3F5ECD9C@gmail.com>

Each section becomes more readable than the last, I promise. 

SR Ballard

> On Jul 18, 2021, at 8:02 PM, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> ?
> I've read some of it, but haven't gotten through close to the whole thing yet. 
> 
>> On Sun, Jul 18, 2021, 4:07 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> ?Bronze Age Mindset? was self-published in 2018 and became an Amazon bestseller. It?s writer, ?Bronze Age Pervert? is a Twitter personality known for his alt-right dogma and his connections to a former White House speechwriter. It is currently considered one of the most influential alt-right books published in the last 5 years. 
>> 
>> Has anyone read it?
>> 
>> SR Ballard
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From giulio at gmail.com  Mon Jul 19 13:43:12 2021
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 15:43:12 +0200
Subject: [ExI] TOMORROW: Terasem Space Day
Message-ID: <CAKTCJye72RsWyHqKhqW3N3pQxgsZpmG2k7JPKLwp53qd34hddw@mail.gmail.com>

TOMORROW: Terasem Space Day

TOMORROW, July 20, 2021, 10am EST:
Terasem Space Day, with Namrata Goswami, Steven Wolfe, Cometan,
Natasha Vita-More, Rachel Lyons.
See here for Zoom access coordinates and agenda:
https://turingchurch.net/terasem-space-day-july-20-2021-705d75e485fc

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Jul 19 20:40:36 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 15:40:36 -0500
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] determinism
In-Reply-To: <D1793909-3C75-419E-B6BC-4DC2F332305D@gmail.com>
References: <CAH=2ypX-ppfbwyrS3Ym1cFmGZ2XpX_twoiuaTNSqLsjJHGQAhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <D1793909-3C75-419E-B6BC-4DC2F332305D@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYNnvBp8y5YPY=7SQmvdnOXez0LgArvw4nurRxYXievhA@mail.gmail.com>

You are talking only about those cases where the determining factor is
completely powerful.

Towards the end of my teaching career I got rather average student
evaluations.  I attributed this to my not inflating grades the way the
others were doing (I checked their grades).  Suppose I did go along.  Were
the student evaluations determining my increasing the grades?  But I
didn't.  I determined to stay the same.  If the dean had threatened my
tenure I would have changed - powerful determinant.  So to a certain extent
we do choose our determinants.  Ballard, you are using the word in a
different way than I am.   bill w

On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 10:50 AM SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:

> You can?t control your actions IF they are determined. If actions are
> simple cause and effect (determined), then there is no choice, only the
> illusion of choice.
>
> If you don?t mean ?determined? as in ?actually determines?, then picking
> the word determined was a huge fuckup back in the day by whoever decided
> that was the way to talk about it.
>
> If actions are determined, then there?s no such thing as guilt ? just like
> truly random actions, there was no choice, so no guilt.
>
> SR Ballard
>
> On Jul 18, 2021, at 8:25 PM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> ?
>
>
> On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 at 23:39, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> So they?re determined except that they aren?t. That?s not very clear. If
>> they?re determined, like Pavlov?s dog, we only have the illusion of choice.
>>
>> If by ?determined?, you mean influenced, then sure, I?d say that free
>> will and determinism are compatible. Otherwise I think it?s a bucket of
>> hogwash.
>>
>> If people really can?t ever control their actions, we need to radically
>> change society, but we can?t, because everything is inevitable. Or maybe we
>> will, because it?s inevitable.
>>
>
> You can't control your actions UNLESS they are determined. An undetermined
> action is one that is truly random, and you can't control a truly random
> event. The best you can hope for is that undetermined events occur
> infrequently or only when the outcome doesn't matter, such as choosing ice
> cream, when the worst that can happen is that you get a flavour you don't
> like.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
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> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAH%3D2ypX-ppfbwyrS3Ym1cFmGZ2XpX_twoiuaTNSqLsjJHGQAhQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>
> --
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> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/D1793909-3C75-419E-B6BC-4DC2F332305D%40gmail.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/D1793909-3C75-419E-B6BC-4DC2F332305D%40gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Jul 19 23:02:51 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (Gregory Jones)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 16:02:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] dogs lie?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYNnvBp8y5YPY=7SQmvdnOXez0LgArvw4nurRxYXievhA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH=2ypX-ppfbwyrS3Ym1cFmGZ2XpX_twoiuaTNSqLsjJHGQAhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <D1793909-3C75-419E-B6BC-4DC2F332305D@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYNnvBp8y5YPY=7SQmvdnOXez0LgArvw4nurRxYXievhA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKRnsnxqvUfs6vu8CTySYfV=srqJKCa2MxFEHxuXrn-2gpC+bg@mail.gmail.com>

on a phone here do pardon misspellings and lcs.

witnessed two small housedogs rassling and tussling.  both dogs like to
bark at pssers by.  in the rassling match dog b was clearly getting the
worst at the paws of dog a.

suddenly dog b alerted, jumped up and began ferociously barking out the
window, even tho no one was there.  dog a immediately abandoned the
rassling match and jumped to the window to see what marvelous barkage had
come inti view.  as dog a looked about in confusion, dog b jumped dog a,
with the new advatage.

did i witness a dog make a devious strategy?  did i see one dog lie to the
other?  then take advantage of it?  i have always thought of dogs as being
such honest beasts.

spike
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Jul 20 01:28:26 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 20:28:26 -0500
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] determinism
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypXHWigurDD3_iGFKPdn6n6O7yRuyAKt4xVuL=hpKWuvCw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH=2ypX-ppfbwyrS3Ym1cFmGZ2XpX_twoiuaTNSqLsjJHGQAhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <D1793909-3C75-419E-B6BC-4DC2F332305D@gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWLJeoeG4EiHRftiSx6Vzgwqh_Qj9-RFJh2Jk2xXAsPzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbrzzeuzCXWqp7AsB-NPKYwMkgYbyV_i4xEeqSSX6JTiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypXHWigurDD3_iGFKPdn6n6O7yRuyAKt4xVuL=hpKWuvCw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaZz-cZHiMsAnpdZdr4174VcGMPfGStmwHWny9gziVszg@mail.gmail.com>

Whether a radioactive nucleus decays is fundamentally random: there is
nothing about the nucleus, its history, the environment that determines
whether it will decay or not in the next minute.

I have extreme reservations about whether they know all of this and even if
they know what to look for, or indeed have the tools to do so even if they
did.  To me and Einstein, random is just a word for our ignorance.  bill w

On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 6:38 PM Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 at 08:02, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> understood what undetermined behaviour would entail.
>>
>>> Stathis Papaioannou
>> Here's random behavior:  your left big toe itches; you right hand mimics
>> playing a scale on the piano; one eye in batting to the beat of a Sousa
>> march; you feel like eating; your bladder empties; you recall going to 1st
>> grade; and so on.  And it's unpredictable what any part of your body or
>> mind is going to do next.  bill w
>>
>
> That description is consistent with your behaviour being determined, since
> there may be reasons for it, even if the reasons are unknown. Random
> behaviour is behaviour that occurs for no reason at all. The only example
> we have of random events are at the quantum level. Whether a radioactive
> nucleus decays is fundamentally random: there is nothing about the nucleus,
> its history, the environment that determines whether it will decay or not
> in the next minute. That is, it?s not just our ignorance, it is a
> fundamental aspect of the universe. Einstein objected to this, because he
> thought that there must be a reason for every event in the universe, and
> maybe we just haven?t discovered it. Most physicists have subsequently
> thought that Einstein was wrong about this.
>
> On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 4:58 PM Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 at 01:50, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You can?t control your actions IF they are determined. If actions are
>>>> simple cause and effect (determined), then there is no choice, only the
>>>> illusion of choice.
>>>>
>>>> If you don?t mean ?determined? as in ?actually determines?, then
>>>> picking the word determined was a huge fuckup back in the day by whoever
>>>> decided that was the way to talk about it.
>>>>
>>>> If actions are determined, then there?s no such thing as guilt ? just
>>>> like truly random actions, there was no choice, so no guilt.
>>>>
>>>
>>> If your actions are not determined, they are random. There is no third
>>> possibility, neither-determined-nor-random. You could perhaps get away with
>>> a little bit of randomness, but too much would make it impossible to
>>> function. There are random events on the world, such as nuclear decay, but
>>> at large scales, including at biological scales, the world behaves
>>> essentially deterministically. Our notions of freedom and choice require a
>>> reliable causal connection between thought and perception, one thought and
>>> the next, thought and action, so determinism is assumed. People who claim
>>> that determinism and freedom are incompatible haven?t understood what
>>> undetermined behaviour would entail.
>>>
>>>> --
>>> Stathis Papaioannou
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "extropolis" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAH%3D2ypWLJeoeG4EiHRftiSx6Vzgwqh_Qj9-RFJh2Jk2xXAsPzQ%40mail.gmail.com
>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAH%3D2ypWLJeoeG4EiHRftiSx6Vzgwqh_Qj9-RFJh2Jk2xXAsPzQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>> .
>>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "extropolis" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAO%2BxQEbrzzeuzCXWqp7AsB-NPKYwMkgYbyV_i4xEeqSSX6JTiA%40mail.gmail.com
>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAO%2BxQEbrzzeuzCXWqp7AsB-NPKYwMkgYbyV_i4xEeqSSX6JTiA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>> .
>>
> --
> Stathis Papaioannou
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAH%3D2ypXHWigurDD3_iGFKPdn6n6O7yRuyAKt4xVuL%3DhpKWuvCw%40mail.gmail.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAH%3D2ypXHWigurDD3_iGFKPdn6n6O7yRuyAKt4xVuL%3DhpKWuvCw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Jul 20 13:51:35 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 08:51:35 -0500
Subject: [ExI] dogs lie?
In-Reply-To: <CAKRnsnxqvUfs6vu8CTySYfV=srqJKCa2MxFEHxuXrn-2gpC+bg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH=2ypX-ppfbwyrS3Ym1cFmGZ2XpX_twoiuaTNSqLsjJHGQAhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <D1793909-3C75-419E-B6BC-4DC2F332305D@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYNnvBp8y5YPY=7SQmvdnOXez0LgArvw4nurRxYXievhA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKRnsnxqvUfs6vu8CTySYfV=srqJKCa2MxFEHxuXrn-2gpC+bg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZJLJ9M61Q5n7qZPbv-grdT+JpxMbffxkOg=4JkxvxAHA@mail.gmail.com>

If it suits you to believe it, then fine.  I think that it is probable that
the dog heard something outside that you didn't hear.  But it would not
surprise me much if you were right.

I appreciate your effort to write me a little note.  Virtually all of my
old friends are dead - all of them.  Several were older but some died way
too young.

You said you were Eeyore and your wife was Tigger, or is that backwards?

I hope you are in a place easily escaped.

Rain, rain, and more rain.  Extreme weather everywhere.  The BRitish Open
(golf) was played in beautiful weather, totally uncharacteristic of
Sandwich, England, where clouds, wind and rain are typical.  Can extreme
weather be great?   bill w

On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 6:05 PM Gregory Jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> on a phone here do pardon misspellings and lcs.
>
> witnessed two small housedogs rassling and tussling.  both dogs like to
> bark at pssers by.  in the rassling match dog b was clearly getting the
> worst at the paws of dog a.
>
> suddenly dog b alerted, jumped up and began ferociously barking out the
> window, even tho no one was there.  dog a immediately abandoned the
> rassling match and jumped to the window to see what marvelous barkage had
> come inti view.  as dog a looked about in confusion, dog b jumped dog a,
> with the new advatage.
>
> did i witness a dog make a devious strategy?  did i see one dog lie to the
> other?  then take advantage of it?  i have always thought of dogs as being
> such honest beasts.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Jul 20 15:29:21 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 10:29:21 -0500
Subject: [ExI] It's a bit too quiet right now...
In-Reply-To: <91f01ce1-0275-0b1d-140d-460039566084@pobox.com>
References: <Pine.NEB.4.64.2107181328440.15202@sparky.zia.io>
 <2FD1C915-F4E0-41FA-80A4-DBF8A17DAE67@gmail.com>
 <91f01ce1-0275-0b1d-140d-460039566084@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZspMT42mpV4=iaCwffs+9uGG7E=TGux+ZJPTKxa5vt5A@mail.gmail.com>

Doing it more is a good birth control device:  you lower the sperm
content.  Low sperm count is often the case when a couple is infertile.
bill w

On Sun, Jul 18, 2021 at 6:43 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On 2021-7-18 10:57, SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote:
> > I?m reading a lot but it?s all either political, religious, or both ?
> > none of which is really acceptable on the List.
>
> You left out sex, fortunately because the last book I finished was ?Sex
> at Dawn?.  Thesis: When our ancestors lived by foraging in
> Dunbar-limited bands, they were as promiscuously randy as bonobos if not
> more so; various features of our anatomy and psychology point that way.
>   Agriculture wrecked not only our physical health but our mental
> health, at least in one respect.
>
> An amusing observation: the pious may say that fucking for pleasure is
> behaving "like beasts", but no beast fucks nearly as often, in ratio to
> conceptions, as humans do.  So if we want to be un-beastly, we should
> fuck more, not less.
>
> (Not that the advice is of any use to me.)
>
> --
> *\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Jul 20 15:50:35 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (Gregory Jones)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 08:50:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] dogs lie?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZJLJ9M61Q5n7qZPbv-grdT+JpxMbffxkOg=4JkxvxAHA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH=2ypX-ppfbwyrS3Ym1cFmGZ2XpX_twoiuaTNSqLsjJHGQAhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <D1793909-3C75-419E-B6BC-4DC2F332305D@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYNnvBp8y5YPY=7SQmvdnOXez0LgArvw4nurRxYXievhA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKRnsnxqvUfs6vu8CTySYfV=srqJKCa2MxFEHxuXrn-2gpC+bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZJLJ9M61Q5n7qZPbv-grdT+JpxMbffxkOg=4JkxvxAHA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKRnsnwChLX5KXTR7gyP+0Y+9vz=BhWxvRvN_26SA7EMcP_dCw@mail.gmail.com>

oy vey it doesnt suit me to believe it.  i have been around dogs never
witnessed anything distantly resembling deception.

friends sick or dying, ja far too many.  two second cousins unrelated to
each other died in 2020, one young suicide one in his 60s, wouldnt go to
the hospital because of covid fear.  one elderly friend died of covid.  at
least four friends caught and survived no lasting consequences.

doctor friend says lotsa breast cancer cases showing up delayed diagnosis.
damn.  spike

On Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 6:57 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> If it suits you to believe it, then fine.  I think that it is probable
> that the dog heard something outside that you didn't hear.  But it would
> not surprise me much if you were right.
>
> I appreciate your effort to write me a little note.  Virtually all of my
> old friends are dead - all of them.  Several were older but some died way
> too young.
>
> You said you were Eeyore and your wife was Tigger, or is that backwards?
>
> I hope you are in a place easily escaped.
>
> Rain, rain, and more rain.  Extreme weather everywhere.  The BRitish Open
> (golf) was played in beautiful weather, totally uncharacteristic of
> Sandwich, England, where clouds, wind and rain are typical.  Can extreme
> weather be great?   bill w
>
> On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 6:05 PM Gregory Jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> on a phone here do pardon misspellings and lcs.
>>
>> witnessed two small housedogs rassling and tussling.  both dogs like to
>> bark at pssers by.  in the rassling match dog b was clearly getting the
>> worst at the paws of dog a.
>>
>> suddenly dog b alerted, jumped up and began ferociously barking out the
>> window, even tho no one was there.  dog a immediately abandoned the
>> rassling match and jumped to the window to see what marvelous barkage had
>> come inti view.  as dog a looked about in confusion, dog b jumped dog a,
>> with the new advatage.
>>
>> did i witness a dog make a devious strategy?  did i see one dog lie to
>> the other?  then take advantage of it?  i have always thought of dogs as
>> being such honest beasts.
>>
>> spike
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Jul 20 15:53:24 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 10:53:24 -0500
Subject: [ExI] unvaccinated
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbR3Wzeq359m+T1CrPSuwmQaWVA9VtmrQ+Um8qGP39_vA@mail.gmail.com>

Here's part of the answer to the question of whypeople don't get the
vaccine:

https://news.yahoo.com/unvaccinated-americans-say-covid-vaccines-are-riskier-than-virus-even-as-delta-surges-among-them-090056685.html
bill w
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Jul 20 15:57:05 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 10:57:05 -0500
Subject: [ExI] dogs lie?
In-Reply-To: <CAKRnsnwChLX5KXTR7gyP+0Y+9vz=BhWxvRvN_26SA7EMcP_dCw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH=2ypX-ppfbwyrS3Ym1cFmGZ2XpX_twoiuaTNSqLsjJHGQAhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <D1793909-3C75-419E-B6BC-4DC2F332305D@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYNnvBp8y5YPY=7SQmvdnOXez0LgArvw4nurRxYXievhA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKRnsnxqvUfs6vu8CTySYfV=srqJKCa2MxFEHxuXrn-2gpC+bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZJLJ9M61Q5n7qZPbv-grdT+JpxMbffxkOg=4JkxvxAHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKRnsnwChLX5KXTR7gyP+0Y+9vz=BhWxvRvN_26SA7EMcP_dCw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEb9E9iafJu8A7-9uU3uBfPvsKi7jKG5qpVuXdVFrXG7Zg@mail.gmail.com>

We are seeing another instance of physician's too conservative attitudes:
breast cancer is one of the diseases that AIs diagnose better than
radiologists.  Is there a big push among the latter to adopt AIs?  I reckon
not.

p.s.  you can call me elderly when I reach 80 (next January 20th)   One
consolation:  I don't look it.   bill w

On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 10:52 AM Gregory Jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> oy vey it doesnt suit me to believe it.  i have been around dogs never
> witnessed anything distantly resembling deception.
>
> friends sick or dying, ja far too many.  two second cousins unrelated to
> each other died in 2020, one young suicide one in his 60s, wouldnt go to
> the hospital because of covid fear.  one elderly friend died of covid.  at
> least four friends caught and survived no lasting consequences.
>
> doctor friend says lotsa breast cancer cases showing up delayed
> diagnosis.  damn.  spike
>
> On Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 6:57 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> If it suits you to believe it, then fine.  I think that it is probable
>> that the dog heard something outside that you didn't hear.  But it would
>> not surprise me much if you were right.
>>
>> I appreciate your effort to write me a little note.  Virtually all of my
>> old friends are dead - all of them.  Several were older but some died way
>> too young.
>>
>> You said you were Eeyore and your wife was Tigger, or is that backwards?
>>
>> I hope you are in a place easily escaped.
>>
>> Rain, rain, and more rain.  Extreme weather everywhere.  The BRitish Open
>> (golf) was played in beautiful weather, totally uncharacteristic of
>> Sandwich, England, where clouds, wind and rain are typical.  Can extreme
>> weather be great?   bill w
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 6:05 PM Gregory Jones via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> on a phone here do pardon misspellings and lcs.
>>>
>>> witnessed two small housedogs rassling and tussling.  both dogs like to
>>> bark at pssers by.  in the rassling match dog b was clearly getting the
>>> worst at the paws of dog a.
>>>
>>> suddenly dog b alerted, jumped up and began ferociously barking out the
>>> window, even tho no one was there.  dog a immediately abandoned the
>>> rassling match and jumped to the window to see what marvelous barkage had
>>> come inti view.  as dog a looked about in confusion, dog b jumped dog a,
>>> with the new advatage.
>>>
>>> did i witness a dog make a devious strategy?  did i see one dog lie to
>>> the other?  then take advantage of it?  i have always thought of dogs as
>>> being such honest beasts.
>>>
>>> spike
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Tue Jul 20 23:33:53 2021
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 19:33:53 -0400
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Kelly_Keglovits_=E2=80=9CElements_of_Extremism?=
 =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=9D_=26_Berger_=E2=80=9CExtremist_Construction_of_Identit?=
 =?utf-8?b?eeKAnQ==?=
Message-ID: <95E3F02C-7C20-4C66-8416-56367BE1722B@gmail.com>

Kelly Keglovits, ?Elements of extremism: Does One Size Fit All? The rhetoric within Extremist Construction of Identity? (Thesis)

https://repositories.lib.utexas.edu/bitstream/handle/2152/84401/keglovitskelly_Thesis_Elements%20of%20Extremism_2020_Redacted.pdf?sequence=2

?This paper will use the theory of J.M. Berger, who through a historical analysis of one known extremist group, claims his theory to be a ?universal process of extremization?. Using two extremist ideologies from vastly different sides of the ideological and political spectrum, the Weathermen and Bronze Age Pervert, my research seeks to test out the ?universal? claims of Berger?s theory, as well as determine the future value of such a theory, as a mean of prediction and intervention for future violence for extremist groups.?

Her writing is terrible, but the idea is sound. It explores the universality of this work work by Berger for counter-terrorism at the Hague, ? Extremist Construction of Identity:
How Escalating Demands for Legitimacy Shape and Define In- Group and Out-Group Dynamics?

https://icct.nl/app/uploads/2017/04/ICCT-Berger-Extremist-Construction-of-Identity-April-2017-2.pdf

? This Research Paper examines how the white supremacist movement Christian Identity emerged from a non-extremist forerunner known as British Israelism. By examining ideological shifts over the course of nearly a century, the paper seeks to identify key pivot points in the movement?s shift toward extremism and explain the process through which extremist ideologues construct and define in-group and out-group identities. Based on these findings, the paper proposes a new framework for analysing and understanding the behaviour and emergence of extremist groups. The proposed framework can be leveraged to design strategic counter- terrorism communications programmes using a linkage-based approach that deconstructs the process of extremist in-group and out-group definition.?

The basic idea is the as groups make increasingly bold claims, they need more to back them up, and when they have more, they make bolder claims. Eventually, their need for ?back up? is so strong that they begin to bring in conspiracy theories and folklore. 

As they progress towards more extreme ideologies, they stop encouraging thought or providing real evidence, instead making bold assertions as if they are fact and training followers to accept them. The ingroup/outgroup gets so strong that helping one is seen as harming the other, and vice versa. Finally, they reach ?apocalypse now?. 

Thought y?all might find it interesting. 

SR Ballard
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 21 15:36:58 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 10:36:58 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 'Noise'
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEa8v9bB9MN86zGGtFLQxRMoprYzp=60A5V_89uH7J1Lzw@mail.gmail.com>

This book by Kahneman and two others needs to be read by anyone who
predicts anything, rates anything, like employees or management or plans
for a family or a company.  Some statistical knowledge is very helpful.

Example:  one person judging whether an immigrant should be admitted to our
country admitted 5% of them - another one 80%.  This is noise in the
system.  Judges giving parole, or giving sentences, vary tremendously and
the book has several ways to decrease noise.

Various kinds of bias are treated also, including most of the ones you
already know, like confirmation bias.

Very strongly recommended.

bill w
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From interzone at gmail.com  Wed Jul 21 16:45:50 2021
From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 12:45:50 -0400
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] unvaccinated
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0X4C3LbQ8RGVuGwvZ5CBF6OpOEJ7rvbwnvQTNFdrxoJQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbR3Wzeq359m+T1CrPSuwmQaWVA9VtmrQ+Um8qGP39_vA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0X4C3LbQ8RGVuGwvZ5CBF6OpOEJ7rvbwnvQTNFdrxoJQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJrqPH_1nV3CqRKwj8jCQ=-VmVb2e5+K2W8AEAH9pjZgPfYXug@mail.gmail.com>

Here's another reason they have hesitancy...Public health agencies have
lost credibility by not actually "following the science."   Not a single
child in the US under the age of 18 has died of CV-19 without a serious
pre-existing condition like leukemia.   And yet, the CDC continues to
parrot Big Pharma talking points urging for all kids to be vaccinated
despite the risk of death for them from CV-19 being essentially ZERO, and
the risks of a young person taking a CV-19 vaccine and having serious side
effects are not zero.

Johns Hopkins Team: There Are Still Zero COVID Deaths Among Healthy Kids
Rather than acknowledge science, Dr. Makary says the CDC continues to use
'flimsy evidence' to push the COVID vaccine upon children.
Audrey Unverferth

A team of Johns Hopkins researchers recently reported that there have been
zero COVID deaths among healthy kids, but the Centers for Disease Control
doesn?t care.

Dr. Marty Makary is a medical expert and professor at the Johns Hopkins
School of Medicine, Bloomberg School of Public Health, and Carey Business
School. His research team ?worked with the nonprofit FAIR Health to analyze
approximately 48,000 children under 18 diagnosed with Covid in
health-insurance data from April to August 2020.?

After studying comprehensive data on thousands of children, the team ?found
a mortality rate of zero among children without a pre-existing medical
condition such as leukemia.? Rather than acknowledge this scientific
reality, Makary says the CDC continues to use ?flimsy evidence? to push the
COVID vaccine upon children.

As Makary noted in the Wall Street Journal on Monday, the implications of
his team?s research are huge. ?[If our research] holds, it has significant
implications for healthy kids and whether they need two vaccine doses,?
Makary says. After all, ?The National Education Association has been
debating whether to urge schools to require vaccination before returning to
school in person. How can they or anyone debate the issue without the right
data??

Makary?s question is obvious, but no less timely. Makary says inflated
COVID death counts continue to be corrected and ?revised downward.?

But rather than combat institutional distrust with scientific data and
discussion, Makary says the CDC is avoiding transparency and rigorous
inquiry. He slammed the agency on Monday, saying it ?overcounts Covid
hospitalizations and deaths and won?t consider if one shot is sufficient.?
According to Makary, this problem is systemic.

Makary says ?a tremendous number of government and private policies?
regarding the vaccination of children are dependent upon one questionable
data point. The CDC claims 335 children under the age of 18 have died with
a COVID diagnosis in their record. However, Makary reports that, ?the CDC,
which has 21,000 employees, hasn?t researched each death to find out
whether Covid caused it or if it involved a pre-existing medical condition.?

?Without these data, the CDC Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices
decided in May that the benefits of two-dose vaccination outweigh the risks
for all kids 12 to 15,? Makary notes. ?I?ve written hundreds of
peer-reviewed medical studies, and I can think of no journal editor who
would accept the claim that 335 deaths resulted from a virus without data
to indicate if the virus was incidental or causal, and without an analysis
of relevant risk factors such as obesity.?

According to Makary, the CDC defies medical research norms, by propagating
a ?flimsy? claim without sufficient research or transparency. And this
isn?t an isolated incident. Makary illustrates that it?s part of a pattern.

https://thefederalist.com/2021/07/21/johns-hopkins-team-there-are-still-zero-covid-deaths-among-healthy-kids/

On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 4:12 PM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 11:53 AM William Flynn Wallace <
> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Here's part of the answer to the question of whypeople don't get the
>> vaccine:
>>
>>
>> https://news.yahoo.com/unvaccinated-americans-say-covid-vaccines-are-riskier-than-virus-even-as-delta-surges-among-them-090056685.html
>> bill w
>>
>
> Yet more evidence that they are *STUPID*.
>
> John K Clark
>
>
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv0X4C3LbQ8RGVuGwvZ5CBF6OpOEJ7rvbwnvQTNFdrxoJQ%40mail.gmail.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv0X4C3LbQ8RGVuGwvZ5CBF6OpOEJ7rvbwnvQTNFdrxoJQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 21 17:05:35 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 12:05:35 -0500
Subject: [ExI] omega 3 oils
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaSxOJ15TiM-swz_dGGkUhd=ypbZsRQP6oZzhgGQ6J=yw@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.t-nation.com/supplements/news-does-fish-oil-work/
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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Jul 21 17:50:04 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 10:50:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] unvaccinated
In-Reply-To: <CAJrqPH_1nV3CqRKwj8jCQ=-VmVb2e5+K2W8AEAH9pjZgPfYXug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbR3Wzeq359m+T1CrPSuwmQaWVA9VtmrQ+Um8qGP39_vA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0X4C3LbQ8RGVuGwvZ5CBF6OpOEJ7rvbwnvQTNFdrxoJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrqPH_1nV3CqRKwj8jCQ=-VmVb2e5+K2W8AEAH9pjZgPfYXug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTN9EzOCjZzX_+NFmeaFN4OV=Z6EkLk-C4uu88sdTFE9Q@mail.gmail.com>

Reducing the death rates among those with pre-existing conditions is
worthy, if it reduces the rates enough.

This also reduces their chances of catching it and similar (variants) in
some years once they've grown up.

Perhaps most importantly to some, having them vaccinated reduces the
chances of them retransmitting it to adults.

So there are still good reasons to vaccinate children.

On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 9:48 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Here's another reason they have hesitancy...Public health agencies have
> lost credibility by not actually "following the science."   Not a single
> child in the US under the age of 18 has died of CV-19 without a serious
> pre-existing condition like leukemia.   And yet, the CDC continues to
> parrot Big Pharma talking points urging for all kids to be vaccinated
> despite the risk of death for them from CV-19 being essentially ZERO, and
> the risks of a young person taking a CV-19 vaccine and having serious side
> effects are not zero.
>
> Johns Hopkins Team: There Are Still Zero COVID Deaths Among Healthy Kids
> Rather than acknowledge science, Dr. Makary says the CDC continues to use
> 'flimsy evidence' to push the COVID vaccine upon children.
> Audrey Unverferth
>
> A team of Johns Hopkins researchers recently reported that there have been
> zero COVID deaths among healthy kids, but the Centers for Disease Control
> doesn?t care.
>
> Dr. Marty Makary is a medical expert and professor at the Johns Hopkins
> School of Medicine, Bloomberg School of Public Health, and Carey Business
> School. His research team ?worked with the nonprofit FAIR Health to analyze
> approximately 48,000 children under 18 diagnosed with Covid in
> health-insurance data from April to August 2020.?
>
> After studying comprehensive data on thousands of children, the team
> ?found a mortality rate of zero among children without a pre-existing
> medical condition such as leukemia.? Rather than acknowledge this
> scientific reality, Makary says the CDC continues to use ?flimsy evidence?
> to push the COVID vaccine upon children.
>
> As Makary noted in the Wall Street Journal on Monday, the implications of
> his team?s research are huge. ?[If our research] holds, it has significant
> implications for healthy kids and whether they need two vaccine doses,?
> Makary says. After all, ?The National Education Association has been
> debating whether to urge schools to require vaccination before returning to
> school in person. How can they or anyone debate the issue without the right
> data??
>
> Makary?s question is obvious, but no less timely. Makary says inflated
> COVID death counts continue to be corrected and ?revised downward.?
>
> But rather than combat institutional distrust with scientific data and
> discussion, Makary says the CDC is avoiding transparency and rigorous
> inquiry. He slammed the agency on Monday, saying it ?overcounts Covid
> hospitalizations and deaths and won?t consider if one shot is sufficient.?
> According to Makary, this problem is systemic.
>
> Makary says ?a tremendous number of government and private policies?
> regarding the vaccination of children are dependent upon one questionable
> data point. The CDC claims 335 children under the age of 18 have died with
> a COVID diagnosis in their record. However, Makary reports that, ?the CDC,
> which has 21,000 employees, hasn?t researched each death to find out
> whether Covid caused it or if it involved a pre-existing medical condition.?
>
> ?Without these data, the CDC Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices
> decided in May that the benefits of two-dose vaccination outweigh the risks
> for all kids 12 to 15,? Makary notes. ?I?ve written hundreds of
> peer-reviewed medical studies, and I can think of no journal editor who
> would accept the claim that 335 deaths resulted from a virus without data
> to indicate if the virus was incidental or causal, and without an analysis
> of relevant risk factors such as obesity.?
>
> According to Makary, the CDC defies medical research norms, by propagating
> a ?flimsy? claim without sufficient research or transparency. And this
> isn?t an isolated incident. Makary illustrates that it?s part of a pattern.
>
>
> https://thefederalist.com/2021/07/21/johns-hopkins-team-there-are-still-zero-covid-deaths-among-healthy-kids/
>
> On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 4:12 PM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 11:53 AM William Flynn Wallace <
>> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Here's part of the answer to the question of whypeople don't get the
>>> vaccine:
>>>
>>>
>>> https://news.yahoo.com/unvaccinated-americans-say-covid-vaccines-are-riskier-than-virus-even-as-delta-surges-among-them-090056685.html
>>> bill w
>>>
>>
>> Yet more evidence that they are *STUPID*.
>>
>> John K Clark
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "extropolis" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv0X4C3LbQ8RGVuGwvZ5CBF6OpOEJ7rvbwnvQTNFdrxoJQ%40mail.gmail.com
>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv0X4C3LbQ8RGVuGwvZ5CBF6OpOEJ7rvbwnvQTNFdrxoJQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>> .
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Wed Jul 21 18:23:00 2021
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 14:23:00 -0400
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] unvaccinated
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTN9EzOCjZzX_+NFmeaFN4OV=Z6EkLk-C4uu88sdTFE9Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNTN9EzOCjZzX_+NFmeaFN4OV=Z6EkLk-C4uu88sdTFE9Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B65D1994-9E0E-4CBE-88CD-3D85C77B1739@gmail.com>

I haven?t seen any proof (or even heard any claims) that it reduces transmission. In fact I?ve heard that it does nothing to the transmission rate, only the hospitalization rate. 

SR Ballard

> On Jul 21, 2021, at 1:52 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> ?
> Reducing the death rates among those with pre-existing conditions is worthy, if it reduces the rates enough.
> 
> This also reduces their chances of catching it and similar (variants) in some years once they've grown up.
> 
> Perhaps most importantly to some, having them vaccinated reduces the chances of them retransmitting it to adults.
> 
> So there are still good reasons to vaccinate children.
> 
>> On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 9:48 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> Here's another reason they have hesitancy...Public health agencies have lost credibility by not actually "following the science."   Not a single child in the US under the age of 18 has died of CV-19 without a serious pre-existing condition like leukemia.   And yet, the CDC continues to parrot Big Pharma talking points urging for all kids to be vaccinated despite the risk of death for them from CV-19 being essentially ZERO, and the risks of a young person taking a CV-19 vaccine and having serious side effects are not zero.
>> 
>> Johns Hopkins Team: There Are Still Zero COVID Deaths Among Healthy Kids
>> Rather than acknowledge science, Dr. Makary says the CDC continues to use 'flimsy evidence' to push the COVID vaccine upon children.
>> Audrey Unverferth
>> 
>> A team of Johns Hopkins researchers recently reported that there have been zero COVID deaths among healthy kids, but the Centers for Disease Control doesn?t care.
>> 
>> Dr. Marty Makary is a medical expert and professor at the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine, Bloomberg School of Public Health, and Carey Business School. His research team ?worked with the nonprofit FAIR Health to analyze approximately 48,000 children under 18 diagnosed with Covid in health-insurance data from April to August 2020.?
>> 
>> After studying comprehensive data on thousands of children, the team ?found a mortality rate of zero among children without a pre-existing medical condition such as leukemia.? Rather than acknowledge this scientific reality, Makary says the CDC continues to use ?flimsy evidence? to push the COVID vaccine upon children.
>> 
>> As Makary noted in the Wall Street Journal on Monday, the implications of his team?s research are huge. ?[If our research] holds, it has significant implications for healthy kids and whether they need two vaccine doses,? Makary says. After all, ?The National Education Association has been debating whether to urge schools to require vaccination before returning to school in person. How can they or anyone debate the issue without the right data??
>> 
>> Makary?s question is obvious, but no less timely. Makary says inflated COVID death counts continue to be corrected and ?revised downward.?
>> 
>> But rather than combat institutional distrust with scientific data and discussion, Makary says the CDC is avoiding transparency and rigorous inquiry. He slammed the agency on Monday, saying it ?overcounts Covid hospitalizations and deaths and won?t consider if one shot is sufficient.? According to Makary, this problem is systemic. 
>> 
>> Makary says ?a tremendous number of government and private policies? regarding the vaccination of children are dependent upon one questionable data point. The CDC claims 335 children under the age of 18 have died with a COVID diagnosis in their record. However, Makary reports that, ?the CDC, which has 21,000 employees, hasn?t researched each death to find out whether Covid caused it or if it involved a pre-existing medical condition.?
>> 
>> ?Without these data, the CDC Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices decided in May that the benefits of two-dose vaccination outweigh the risks for all kids 12 to 15,? Makary notes. ?I?ve written hundreds of peer-reviewed medical studies, and I can think of no journal editor who would accept the claim that 335 deaths resulted from a virus without data to indicate if the virus was incidental or causal, and without an analysis of relevant risk factors such as obesity.? 
>> 
>> According to Makary, the CDC defies medical research norms, by propagating a ?flimsy? claim without sufficient research or transparency. And this isn?t an isolated incident. Makary illustrates that it?s part of a pattern. 
>> 
>> https://thefederalist.com/2021/07/21/johns-hopkins-team-there-are-still-zero-covid-deaths-among-healthy-kids/
>> 
>>> On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 4:12 PM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 11:53 AM William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> > Here's part of the answer to the question of whypeople don't get the vaccine:
>>>> 
>>>> https://news.yahoo.com/unvaccinated-americans-say-covid-vaccines-are-riskier-than-virus-even-as-delta-surges-among-them-090056685.html  bill w
>>> 
>>> Yet more evidence that they are STUPID. 
>>> 
>>> John K Clark
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv0X4C3LbQ8RGVuGwvZ5CBF6OpOEJ7rvbwnvQTNFdrxoJQ%40mail.gmail.com.
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From interzone at gmail.com  Wed Jul 21 19:00:48 2021
From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 15:00:48 -0400
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] unvaccinated
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1iefanSc79gT7JuAOL+unjsBHPip25FbhpqadwMz_vow@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbR3Wzeq359m+T1CrPSuwmQaWVA9VtmrQ+Um8qGP39_vA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0X4C3LbQ8RGVuGwvZ5CBF6OpOEJ7rvbwnvQTNFdrxoJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrqPH_1nV3CqRKwj8jCQ=-VmVb2e5+K2W8AEAH9pjZgPfYXug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1iefanSc79gT7JuAOL+unjsBHPip25FbhpqadwMz_vow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJrqPH-_YqB76ZF3aAw6VjjSoyWXvYASq101-erH2k2B6F1bLA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 2:44 PM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 12:46 PM Dylan Distasio <interzone at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> *>Here's another reason they have hesitancy...Public health agencies have
>> lost credibility by not actually "following the science."   Not a single
>> child in the US under the age of 18 has died of CV-19 without a serious
>> pre-existing condition *
>>
>
>>
>> https://thefederalist.com/2021/07/21/johns-hopkins-team-there-are-still-zero-covid-deaths-among-healthy-kids/
>>
>
> First of all, the article you cite is a year old
>

I'm not sure what you're talking about.  Both the Federalist piece and the
WSJ OpEd by Johns Hopkins researchers referenced are from today.   They are
not a year old and are current.   I suppose you will ignore Johns Hopkins
research because it doesn't agree with your narrative.


>  And children can certainly become infected with COVID-19 even if they
> don't show any symptoms and thus give the disease to other people.
>

There is not substantial evidence of younger children easily spreading
CV-19 or appreciably impacting community spread , but if you're vaccinated,
you have nothing to worry about either way, right?  Right?


>
>
> By the way Dylan, you're not a kid, have you been vaccinated?
>
>
My vaccination status is none of your business so I'm not sure why you're
asking.   It has zero to do with the risk calculation around vaccinating
children.
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From interzone at gmail.com  Wed Jul 21 19:20:36 2021
From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 15:20:36 -0400
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] unvaccinated
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv28DNUD+ipU8gZCPJ+oO5Wu_vSuD=xpUXiWVCDSAUr7Sw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbR3Wzeq359m+T1CrPSuwmQaWVA9VtmrQ+Um8qGP39_vA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0X4C3LbQ8RGVuGwvZ5CBF6OpOEJ7rvbwnvQTNFdrxoJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrqPH_1nV3CqRKwj8jCQ=-VmVb2e5+K2W8AEAH9pjZgPfYXug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1iefanSc79gT7JuAOL+unjsBHPip25FbhpqadwMz_vow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrqPH-_YqB76ZF3aAw6VjjSoyWXvYASq101-erH2k2B6F1bLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv28DNUD+ipU8gZCPJ+oO5Wu_vSuD=xpUXiWVCDSAUr7Sw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJrqPH8bTPhDNw9oNCp+Ng_crbmeMx13jUmwhQtYw6VoZUP5bQ@mail.gmail.com>

I purposely didn't answer you because I knew this is exactly the response I
would get.   Your cognitive dissonance has superseded your critical
thinking abilities.   Filtering everything through a political lens has
created a big blind spot for you on multiple topics.   I am vaccinated, but
unlike you, I'm willing to look at the actual data.

I notice you're ignoring the fact that the link I provided is current and
based on Johns Hopkins research regardless of what you think of the "rag"
it was reported in.

On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 3:06 PM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 3:01 PM Dylan Distasio <interzone at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >> By the way Dylan, you're not a kid, have you been vaccinated?
>>
>>
>> *> My vaccination status is none of your business  *
>
>
> I think you just answered my question, but I understand, if I was unvaccinated
> I'd be embarrassed to admit it too.
>
> John K Clark
>
>
>> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv28DNUD%2BipU8gZCPJ%2BoO5Wu_vSuD%3DxpUXiWVCDSAUr7Sw%40mail.gmail.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv28DNUD%2BipU8gZCPJ%2BoO5Wu_vSuD%3DxpUXiWVCDSAUr7Sw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>
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From interzone at gmail.com  Wed Jul 21 19:40:00 2021
From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 15:40:00 -0400
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] unvaccinated
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1naykTptriVycF4jkKCNSxU11W87vQA_Tm710qZSq67Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbR3Wzeq359m+T1CrPSuwmQaWVA9VtmrQ+Um8qGP39_vA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0X4C3LbQ8RGVuGwvZ5CBF6OpOEJ7rvbwnvQTNFdrxoJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrqPH_1nV3CqRKwj8jCQ=-VmVb2e5+K2W8AEAH9pjZgPfYXug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1iefanSc79gT7JuAOL+unjsBHPip25FbhpqadwMz_vow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrqPH-_YqB76ZF3aAw6VjjSoyWXvYASq101-erH2k2B6F1bLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv28DNUD+ipU8gZCPJ+oO5Wu_vSuD=xpUXiWVCDSAUr7Sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrqPH8bTPhDNw9oNCp+Ng_crbmeMx13jUmwhQtYw6VoZUP5bQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1naykTptriVycF4jkKCNSxU11W87vQA_Tm710qZSq67Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJrqPH86PXcNArUiQiyKae4i4660o8TCAQnRnBSCK2Ob5BUzjw@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks, regardless of virtual dust ups, I harbor no ill will towards you or
anyone else on the list, and wish all continued good health.

On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 3:36 PM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 3:21 PM Dylan Distasio <interzone at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>  > *I am vaccinated,*
>
>
> I am very glad to hear that! And I mean it, I'd hate to lose a list
> member.
>
>>
>>
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From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Wed Jul 21 19:42:49 2021
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 15:42:49 -0400
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] unvaccinated
In-Reply-To: <CAJrqPH8bTPhDNw9oNCp+Ng_crbmeMx13jUmwhQtYw6VoZUP5bQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbR3Wzeq359m+T1CrPSuwmQaWVA9VtmrQ+Um8qGP39_vA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0X4C3LbQ8RGVuGwvZ5CBF6OpOEJ7rvbwnvQTNFdrxoJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrqPH_1nV3CqRKwj8jCQ=-VmVb2e5+K2W8AEAH9pjZgPfYXug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1iefanSc79gT7JuAOL+unjsBHPip25FbhpqadwMz_vow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrqPH-_YqB76ZF3aAw6VjjSoyWXvYASq101-erH2k2B6F1bLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv28DNUD+ipU8gZCPJ+oO5Wu_vSuD=xpUXiWVCDSAUr7Sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrqPH8bTPhDNw9oNCp+Ng_crbmeMx13jUmwhQtYw6VoZUP5bQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b2bc9b3def85eb4af25ff780daa18f10.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>

WHY am I getting mails from the extropolis group?  I specifically did NOT
subscribe to that as I wished to avoid the political harangues. But here
they are, coming to extropy-chat.  Bummer.

Regards,
MB

On Wed, July 21, 2021 15:20, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote:
> I purposely didn't answer you because I knew this is exactly the response
> I
> would get.   Your cognitive dissonance has superseded your critical
> thinking abilities.   Filtering everything through a political lens has
> created a big blind spot for you on multiple topics.   I am vaccinated,
> but
> unlike you, I'm willing to look at the actual data.
>
> I notice you're ignoring the fact that the link I provided is current and
> based on Johns Hopkins research regardless of what you think of the "rag"
> it was reported in.
>
> On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 3:06 PM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 3:01 PM Dylan Distasio <interzone at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >> By the way Dylan, you're not a kid, have you been vaccinated?
>>>
>>>
>>> *> My vaccination status is none of your business  *
>>
>>
>> I think you just answered my question, but I understand, if I was
>> unvaccinated
>> I'd be embarrassed to admit it too.
>>
>> John K Clark
>>
>>
>>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> Groups
>> "extropolis" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>> an
>> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv28DNUD%2BipU8gZCPJ%2BoO5Wu_vSuD%3DxpUXiWVCDSAUr7Sw%40mail.gmail.com
>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv28DNUD%2BipU8gZCPJ%2BoO5Wu_vSuD%3DxpUXiWVCDSAUr7Sw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>> .
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 21 21:20:32 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 16:20:32 -0500
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] unvaccinated
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTN9EzOCjZzX_+NFmeaFN4OV=Z6EkLk-C4uu88sdTFE9Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbR3Wzeq359m+T1CrPSuwmQaWVA9VtmrQ+Um8qGP39_vA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0X4C3LbQ8RGVuGwvZ5CBF6OpOEJ7rvbwnvQTNFdrxoJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrqPH_1nV3CqRKwj8jCQ=-VmVb2e5+K2W8AEAH9pjZgPfYXug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTN9EzOCjZzX_+NFmeaFN4OV=Z6EkLk-C4uu88sdTFE9Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEb9vs+fQNmoTj-E+ZV1ztGis67=GDQkqPFNvYm7PnydhA@mail.gmail.com>

I read where the CDC is not telling us all the data.  Whether that comes
from a reliable source, I have no idea.  I would like to know if anyone
knows, just what the percentage of vaccinated adults have had serious side
effects.

You say that a vaccinated person has a lower chance of passing it on,
right?  But it really does not matter to me - I have to wear the mask
everywhere regardless.   Well, not outside.  bill w

On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 12:52 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Reducing the death rates among those with pre-existing conditions is
> worthy, if it reduces the rates enough.
>
> This also reduces their chances of catching it and similar (variants) in
> some years once they've grown up.
>
> Perhaps most importantly to some, having them vaccinated reduces the
> chances of them retransmitting it to adults.
>
> So there are still good reasons to vaccinate children.
>
> On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 9:48 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Here's another reason they have hesitancy...Public health agencies have
>> lost credibility by not actually "following the science."   Not a single
>> child in the US under the age of 18 has died of CV-19 without a serious
>> pre-existing condition like leukemia.   And yet, the CDC continues to
>> parrot Big Pharma talking points urging for all kids to be vaccinated
>> despite the risk of death for them from CV-19 being essentially ZERO, and
>> the risks of a young person taking a CV-19 vaccine and having serious side
>> effects are not zero.
>>
>> Johns Hopkins Team: There Are Still Zero COVID Deaths Among Healthy Kids
>> Rather than acknowledge science, Dr. Makary says the CDC continues to use
>> 'flimsy evidence' to push the COVID vaccine upon children.
>> Audrey Unverferth
>>
>> A team of Johns Hopkins researchers recently reported that there have
>> been zero COVID deaths among healthy kids, but the Centers for Disease
>> Control doesn?t care.
>>
>> Dr. Marty Makary is a medical expert and professor at the Johns Hopkins
>> School of Medicine, Bloomberg School of Public Health, and Carey Business
>> School. His research team ?worked with the nonprofit FAIR Health to analyze
>> approximately 48,000 children under 18 diagnosed with Covid in
>> health-insurance data from April to August 2020.?
>>
>> After studying comprehensive data on thousands of children, the team
>> ?found a mortality rate of zero among children without a pre-existing
>> medical condition such as leukemia.? Rather than acknowledge this
>> scientific reality, Makary says the CDC continues to use ?flimsy evidence?
>> to push the COVID vaccine upon children.
>>
>> As Makary noted in the Wall Street Journal on Monday, the implications of
>> his team?s research are huge. ?[If our research] holds, it has significant
>> implications for healthy kids and whether they need two vaccine doses,?
>> Makary says. After all, ?The National Education Association has been
>> debating whether to urge schools to require vaccination before returning to
>> school in person. How can they or anyone debate the issue without the right
>> data??
>>
>> Makary?s question is obvious, but no less timely. Makary says inflated
>> COVID death counts continue to be corrected and ?revised downward.?
>>
>> But rather than combat institutional distrust with scientific data and
>> discussion, Makary says the CDC is avoiding transparency and rigorous
>> inquiry. He slammed the agency on Monday, saying it ?overcounts Covid
>> hospitalizations and deaths and won?t consider if one shot is sufficient.?
>> According to Makary, this problem is systemic.
>>
>> Makary says ?a tremendous number of government and private policies?
>> regarding the vaccination of children are dependent upon one questionable
>> data point. The CDC claims 335 children under the age of 18 have died with
>> a COVID diagnosis in their record. However, Makary reports that, ?the CDC,
>> which has 21,000 employees, hasn?t researched each death to find out
>> whether Covid caused it or if it involved a pre-existing medical condition.?
>>
>> ?Without these data, the CDC Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices
>> decided in May that the benefits of two-dose vaccination outweigh the risks
>> for all kids 12 to 15,? Makary notes. ?I?ve written hundreds of
>> peer-reviewed medical studies, and I can think of no journal editor who
>> would accept the claim that 335 deaths resulted from a virus without data
>> to indicate if the virus was incidental or causal, and without an analysis
>> of relevant risk factors such as obesity.?
>>
>> According to Makary, the CDC defies medical research norms, by
>> propagating a ?flimsy? claim without sufficient research or transparency.
>> And this isn?t an isolated incident. Makary illustrates that it?s part of a
>> pattern.
>>
>>
>> https://thefederalist.com/2021/07/21/johns-hopkins-team-there-are-still-zero-covid-deaths-among-healthy-kids/
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 4:12 PM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 11:53 AM William Flynn Wallace <
>>> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Here's part of the answer to the question of whypeople don't get the
>>>> vaccine:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://news.yahoo.com/unvaccinated-americans-say-covid-vaccines-are-riskier-than-virus-even-as-delta-surges-among-them-090056685.html
>>>> bill w
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yet more evidence that they are *STUPID*.
>>>
>>> John K Clark
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "extropolis" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv0X4C3LbQ8RGVuGwvZ5CBF6OpOEJ7rvbwnvQTNFdrxoJQ%40mail.gmail.com
>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv0X4C3LbQ8RGVuGwvZ5CBF6OpOEJ7rvbwnvQTNFdrxoJQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>> .
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 21 21:43:49 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 16:43:49 -0500
Subject: [ExI] antivaxxers
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEa1A7g8i7txDdFPfPHuN6pLO3fP2hjfEzLrYm9knsi6pQ@mail.gmail.com>

Basic factors:

confirmation bias - ignoring relevant evidence whether confirming or
contradicting one's beliefs

openness to experience - related to above - a person rather closed would
come to a conclusion and leave it there

conscientiousness - a conscientious person would track down all the data he
needed - no first impressions believed

neuroticism - the anxiety prone would be far more likely to believe scary
data and even exaggerate data, or even believe any conspiracy theory that
scares them enough

conformity, compliance and obedience - perhaps there is peer pressure from
family, mates, friends, orders from parents, etc.  Don't want to stand out
from the crowd and get harassed.  Have to obey parents.  Conforming to
people they admire who think it's not big deal or even evil

contrarianism - this factor speaks for itself - this will include those who
think it's their right to do what they want and damn the consequences for
other people

poor understanding of probability - like those who chose to drive after
9/11 rather than fly

a history of not believing the government - this may be a major factor
among Blacks

I could dredge up some more biases but I think the above would fit most of
the antivaxxer crowd.  Feel free to add more factors you think are important

bill w
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From guessmyneeds at yahoo.com  Thu Jul 22 01:38:34 2021
From: guessmyneeds at yahoo.com (Sherry Knepper)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2021 01:38:34 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] unvaccinated
In-Reply-To: <CAJrqPH_1nV3CqRKwj8jCQ=-VmVb2e5+K2W8AEAH9pjZgPfYXug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbR3Wzeq359m+T1CrPSuwmQaWVA9VtmrQ+Um8qGP39_vA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0X4C3LbQ8RGVuGwvZ5CBF6OpOEJ7rvbwnvQTNFdrxoJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrqPH_1nV3CqRKwj8jCQ=-VmVb2e5+K2W8AEAH9pjZgPfYXug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1402177563.100155.1626917914518@mail.yahoo.com>


Got one Pfizer and almost able to get my 2nd dose.? Very afraid of feeling hit by a truck and unable to sleep for a night but more afraid of getting covid19.? Btw, I am 68.
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 12:53 PM, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:   Here's another reason they have hesitancy...Public health agencies have lost credibility by not actually "following the science."? ?Not a single child in the US under the age of 18 has died of CV-19 without a serious pre-existing condition like leukemia.? ?And yet, the CDC continues to parrot Big Pharma talking points urging for all kids to be vaccinated despite the risk of death for them from CV-19 being essentially ZERO, and the risks of a young person taking a CV-19 vaccine and having serious side effects are not zero.
Johns Hopkins Team: There Are Still Zero COVID Deaths Among Healthy Kids
Rather than acknowledge science, Dr. Makary says the CDC continues to use 'flimsy evidence' to push the COVID vaccine upon children.
Audrey Unverferth

A team of Johns Hopkins researchers recently reported that there have been zero COVID deaths among healthy kids, but the Centers for Disease Control doesn?t care.

Dr. Marty Makary is a medical expert and professor at the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine, Bloomberg School of Public Health, and Carey Business School. His research team ?worked with the nonprofit FAIR Health to analyze approximately 48,000 children under 18 diagnosed with Covid in health-insurance data from April to August 2020.?

After studying comprehensive data on thousands of children, the team ?found a mortality rate of zero among children without a pre-existing medical condition such as leukemia.? Rather than acknowledge this scientific reality, Makary says the CDC continues to use ?flimsy evidence? to push the COVID vaccine upon children.

As Makary noted in the Wall Street Journal on Monday, the implications of his team?s research are huge. ?[If our research] holds, it has significant implications for healthy kids and whether they need two vaccine doses,? Makary says. After all, ?The National Education Association has been debating whether to urge schools to require vaccination before returning to school in person. How can they or anyone debate the issue without the right data??

Makary?s question is obvious, but no less timely. Makary says inflated COVID death counts continue to be corrected and ?revised downward.?

But rather than combat institutional distrust with scientific data and discussion, Makary says the CDC is avoiding transparency and rigorous inquiry. He slammed the agency on Monday, saying it ?overcounts Covid hospitalizations and deaths and won?t consider if one shot is sufficient.? According to Makary, this problem is systemic. 

Makary says ?a tremendous number of government and private policies? regarding the vaccination of children are dependent upon one questionable data point. The CDC claims 335 children under the age of 18 have died with a COVID diagnosis in their record. However, Makary reports that, ?the CDC, which has 21,000 employees, hasn?t researched each death to find out whether Covid caused it or if it involved a pre-existing medical condition.?

?Without these data, the CDC Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices decided in May that the benefits of two-dose vaccination outweigh the risks for all kids 12 to 15,? Makary notes. ?I?ve written hundreds of peer-reviewed medical studies, and I can think of no journal editor who would accept the claim that 335 deaths resulted from a virus without data to indicate if the virus was incidental or causal, and without an analysis of relevant risk factors such as obesity.? 

According to Makary, the CDC defies medical research norms, by propagating a ?flimsy? claim without sufficient research or transparency. And this isn?t an isolated incident. Makary illustrates that it?s part of a pattern.?

https://thefederalist.com/2021/07/21/johns-hopkins-team-there-are-still-zero-covid-deaths-among-healthy-kids/

On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 4:12 PM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 11:53 AM William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:


> Here's part of the answer to the question of whypeople?don't get the vaccine:
https://news.yahoo.com/unvaccinated-americans-say-covid-vaccines-are-riskier-than-virus-even-as-delta-surges-among-them-090056685.html? bill w


Yet more evidence that they are STUPID.?
John K Clark

?

-- 
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
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From anonymous.c0ward at protonmail.com  Thu Jul 22 04:16:45 2021
From: anonymous.c0ward at protonmail.com (Anonymous Coward)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2021 04:16:45 +0000
Subject: [ExI] unvaccinated
Message-ID: <yDaCl3RZ8JvOv0UANwZi6XphmW56iY35bMyYukjRxm40cRjQ1IJAyrT89T8Q0WE5Nqqy-pvST8ejo8wnH5uIdKHXIKxkZzDeAvR0j_ZjfN4=@protonmail.com>

> I read where the CDC is not telling us all the data. Whether that comes from a reliable source, I have no idea. I would like to know if anyone knows, just what the percentage of vaccinated adults have had serious side effects.

Data for children/young adults aged 12 to 25 is available from the CDC.

> https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-2021-06/03-COVID-Shimabukuro-508.pdf

Slide 8 shows a 0.5% to 0.6% ER/hospitalization from the first dose and a 0.7% ER/hospitalization rate from the second dose. If a child/young adult takes both doses, they have a 1.2% to 1.3% chance of hospitalization from a vaccine-induced side effect.

> https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-2021-06/05-COVID-Wallace-508.pdf

Slides 32, 33, estimate that for every 1 million inoculations, 215 hospitalizations are prevented for males aged 12 to 17 and 187 for females aged 12 to 17. This comes out to 0.0215% and 0.0187% risk of hospitalization from COVID-19 when not inoculated. For males aged 18 to 24, 530 hospitalizations are prevented, while for females aged 18 to 24, 1127 hospitalizations are prevented. This comes out to 0.0530% and 0.1127% respectively.

Therefore, males aged 12 to 17 face a (1.2% / 0.0215%) or 55.8 times greater risk of hospitalization from the vaccine than from a COVID-19 infection.

Females aged 18 to 24, face a (1.3% / 0.1127%) or 11.5 times greater risk of being hospitalized from the vaccine than from a COVID-19 infection.

> https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#demographicsovertime

These hospitalization estimates from COVID-19 are based on May 2021 prevalence rates in the United States. Currently cases in the United States are at the lowest since the pandemic began. This implies the 11.5 to 55.8 greater risk factors are likely underestimates.
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From giulio at gmail.com  Thu Jul 22 09:00:57 2021
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2021 11:00:57 +0200
Subject: [ExI] VIDEO: Terasem Space Day, July 20, 2021
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfZXqwfFAe2D9HFLoKjTmoJ1GV0gjNn2u10On22ioei5w@mail.gmail.com>

VIDEO: Terasem Space Day, July 20, 2021

The Terasem Space Day covered spaceflight, geopolitics, future
scenarios, space philosophy and culture, and spiritual implications.
Namrata Goswami, Cometan, Steven Wolfe, Natasha Vita-More, Rachel
Lyons...

https://turingchurch.net/video-terasem-space-day-july-20-2021-ef0199c8da54

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Jul 22 13:12:22 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2021 08:12:22 -0500
Subject: [ExI] antivax redux
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZznecNAU6aHJ3tsAer89CthTrDd-FG3BXy2Y2=EDgDyg@mail.gmail.com>

Oops - missed a big one.  Repubs are pushing no shots.  Why?  Possibly
because Biden recommends them.  Of course you could talk about Trump here,
but actually he got the vaccine and recommended that others get it.  One
thing you can't blame him for.  Of course the only people Repubs are
hurting are themselves.  bill w
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Jul 22 14:15:10 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2021 09:15:10 -0500
Subject: [ExI] from aeon - trump
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbzKojz_faYaWJF=nCh=1ekm4kNMLXjQkP0kqUEAvCZtg@mail.gmail.com>

The article is about the creation of the teenage culture and its
infiltration into adult life over the last 100 years.    Maybe in many
cases of the antivax the people are just immature.  Rebels.  Like On the
Waterfront:  "Just what are you opposed to?"  "What you got?"  (quote
paraphrased)  bill w

The tendencies Trump displayed ? impulsiveness, belligerence, narcissism, a
cavalier disregard for social norms ? have grown all too common over time
in society at large. One recent example is the stubborn refusal of many to
wear masks during the COVID-19 pandemic, a political act on the surface,
but at a deeper level a social phenomenon that could happen only in a
society where many have lost touch with what it means to act like a mature
adult in times of crisis and adversity. The larger social pattern helps
explain how a man displaying symptoms of the same syndrome could gain the
public support necessary to win the presidency once and nearly do it again.
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From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Jul 22 15:02:10 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (Gregory Jones)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2021 08:02:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] from old movies
In-Reply-To: <CAKRnsnwfoJjHM_5zES0AQ_OAPVMktm0DKLLMOuMfcDQYxhyi2g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbzKojz_faYaWJF=nCh=1ekm4kNMLXjQkP0kqUEAvCZtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKRnsnwfoJjHM_5zES0AQ_OAPVMktm0DKLLMOuMfcDQYxhyi2g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKRnsnwh1kVK2fha04BGKRmwrTgcGDPCKaS2M_=rsnroqSEyfQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 7:58 AM Gregory Jones <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 7:21 AM William Flynn
>
>   Like On the Waterfront:  "Just what are you opposed to?"  "What you
> got?"  (quote paraphrased)  bill w
>
>
>
> that line was from the wild ones, 1953.  marlin brando said it.  spike
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>
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From bronto at pobox.com  Thu Jul 22 15:32:28 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2021 08:32:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] from old movies
In-Reply-To: <CAKRnsnwh1kVK2fha04BGKRmwrTgcGDPCKaS2M_=rsnroqSEyfQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbzKojz_faYaWJF=nCh=1ekm4kNMLXjQkP0kqUEAvCZtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKRnsnwfoJjHM_5zES0AQ_OAPVMktm0DKLLMOuMfcDQYxhyi2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKRnsnwh1kVK2fha04BGKRmwrTgcGDPCKaS2M_=rsnroqSEyfQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1f91f68b-2fbf-b59c-8ef7-46a81f45ce1f@pobox.com>

>      ? Like On the Waterfront:? "Just what are you opposed to?"? "What
>     you got?"? (quote paraphrased)? bill w

On 2021-7-22 08:02, Gregory Jones wrote:
>     that line was from the wild ones, 1953.? marlin brando said it.? spike

One, not ones.

According to IMDb:
	Mildred: Hey Johnny, what are you rebelling against?
	Johnny: Whadda you got?


-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org



From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Jul 22 16:07:26 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (Gregory Jones)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2021 09:07:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] from old movies
In-Reply-To: <CAKRnsny_ymgt-3a2vHADzP_i1OAO=dsRDONZ_0+wLt2MaCoFxQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbzKojz_faYaWJF=nCh=1ekm4kNMLXjQkP0kqUEAvCZtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKRnsnwfoJjHM_5zES0AQ_OAPVMktm0DKLLMOuMfcDQYxhyi2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKRnsnwh1kVK2fha04BGKRmwrTgcGDPCKaS2M_=rsnroqSEyfQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbLG2+_j18+Mr9sXZQjw4aOZ1ZOzdEq1JKkbPnP1f4taA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKRnsny_ymgt-3a2vHADzP_i1OAO=dsRDONZ_0+wLt2MaCoFxQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKRnsnxHF0azQ_AH0iJYFgOMD_07ScDrT3HV+Frkx+mcmQ8Z8Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 8:53 AM Gregory Jones <spike at rainier66.com> wrote

>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 7:21 AM William Flynn
>>>>
>>>>   Like On the Waterfront:  "Just what are you opposed to?"  "What you
>>>> got?"  (quote paraphrased)  bill w
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> that line was from the wild ones, 1953.  marlin brando
>>>>
>>>



a former exi poster and longtime friend was at my house in the mid 90s.  he
commented that those born after on the waterfront dont understand that
movie.  i had heard references to it but never saw it, the trope i coulda
been a contenduh, instead im a bum line by brando for instance.

so i rented, viewed, my friend was right, i didnt get it.  now i do.  i
studied into supply lines before shipping containers became the thing and
changed everything.

spike

>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Jul 23 11:34:31 2021
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 12:34:31 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Amusing ourselves to death
Message-ID: <CAL_armgv0uTA3jeiJ4Q-oO79CaukCVOKftoiK_Ce4pOoScUY9w@mail.gmail.com>

I interrupted my hours of clicking on 'must-read' news and
'must-watch' videos when I came across this article about how media
triviality is taking over civilisation. Excellent read!

<https://newintrigue.com/2021/05/20/the-world-according-to-neil-postman/>

Quote:
We were keeping our eye on 1984. When the year came and the prophecy
didn't, thoughtful Americans sang softly in praise of ourselves. But
we had forgotten that alongside Orwell?s dark vision was another
?slightly older, slightly less well known, equally chilling: Aldous
Huxley's Brave New World.?

What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared
was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no
one who wanted to read one. Orwell feared those who would deprive us
of information. Huxley feared those would give us so much that we
would be reduced to passivity and egoism. Orwell feared that the truth
would be concealed from us. Huxley feared the truth would be drowned
in a sea of irrelevance. Orwell feared we would become a captive
culture. Huxley feared we would become a trivial culture.
---------------------

There is no prize for guessing who was right.

When we look around at the world today, how can we not say that we
have become a captive society, controlled in the very manner that
Postman and Huxley predicted? What?s more, instead of resisting this
control, as we would under a fascist regime ? we have succumbed to it.

As Postman wrote:
People will come to love their oppression, to adore the technologies
that undo their capacity to think.
----------------------------------------

Postman's book can be downloaded or read online (197 pages) here:
<https://www.eternal.life/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/amusing-ourselves-to-death.pdf>

BillK


From danust2012 at gmail.com  Fri Jul 23 15:54:52 2021
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 08:54:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Amusing ourselves to death
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgv0uTA3jeiJ4Q-oO79CaukCVOKftoiK_Ce4pOoScUY9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgv0uTA3jeiJ4Q-oO79CaukCVOKftoiK_Ce4pOoScUY9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DDC62517-1821-4C41-AAD8-D524837193A7@gmail.com>

On Jul 23, 2021, at 4:37 AM, BillK via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> ?I interrupted my hours of clicking on 'must-read' news and
> 'must-watch' videos when I came across this article about how media
> triviality is taking over civilisation. Excellent read!
> 
> <https://newintrigue.com/2021/05/20/the-world-according-to-neil-postman/>
> 
> Quote:
> We were keeping our eye on 1984. When the year came and the prophecy
> didn't, thoughtful Americans sang softly in praise of ourselves. But
> we had forgotten that alongside Orwell?s dark vision was another
> ?slightly older, slightly less well known, equally chilling: Aldous
> Huxley's Brave New World.?
> 
> What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared
> was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no
> one who wanted to read one. Orwell feared those who would deprive us
> of information. Huxley feared those would give us so much that we
> would be reduced to passivity and egoism. Orwell feared that the truth
> would be concealed from us. Huxley feared the truth would be drowned
> in a sea of irrelevance. Orwell feared we would become a captive
> culture. Huxley feared we would become a trivial culture.
> ---------------------
> 
> There is no prize for guessing who was right.
> 
> When we look around at the world today, how can we not say that we
> have become a captive society, controlled in the very manner that
> Postman and Huxley predicted? What?s more, instead of resisting this
> control, as we would under a fascist regime ? we have succumbed to it.
> 
> As Postman wrote:
> People will come to love their oppression, to adore the technologies
> that undo their capacity to think.
> ----------------------------------------
> 
> Postman's book can be downloaded or read online (197 pages) here:
> <https://www.eternal.life/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/amusing-ourselves-to-death.pdf>

I?ve mentioned Postman here before, but, of course, I was ignored.

Regards,

Dan

From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Jul 25 08:01:07 2021
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 09:01:07 +0100
Subject: [ExI] After death, girl friend recreated as GPT-3 chatbot
Message-ID: <CAL_armjvUyYgR+5GpTmGWkz04d8Y=Njhig05GqkVV0mZoNJ81g@mail.gmail.com>

After Joshua Barbeau's fianc? passed away, he spoke to her for months.
Or, rather, he spoke to a chatbot programmed to sound exactly like
her.

In a story for the San Francisco Chronicle, Barbeau detailed how
Project December, a software that uses artificial intelligence
technology to create hyper-realistic chatbots, recreated the
experience of speaking with his late fianc?. All he had to do was plug
in old messages and give some background information, and suddenly the
model could emulate his partner with stunning accuracy.
----------------------

This is an interesting, very long and moving story, but worth reading.

<https://www.sfchronicle.com/projects/2021/jessica-simulation-artificial-intelligence/>

Of course, Open AI, (who created GPT-3), have warned that the
technology could be misused. Changing the database could make
recreated personalities behave in ways the real person never would.
But then all tech can (and will be) misused.
That's the way humans work.

BillK


From ddraig at gmail.com  Sun Jul 25 08:58:25 2021
From: ddraig at gmail.com (ddraig@pobox.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 18:58:25 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Amusing ourselves to death
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgv0uTA3jeiJ4Q-oO79CaukCVOKftoiK_Ce4pOoScUY9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgv0uTA3jeiJ4Q-oO79CaukCVOKftoiK_Ce4pOoScUY9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGfkSy0CUgWtftm2+AjFb19tPKoVEkyO0coRNYAqSE=o9V5r+A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 at 21:40, BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> As Postman wrote:
> People will come to love their oppression, to adore the technologies
> that undo their capacity to think.
> ----------------------------------------
>
> Postman's book can be downloaded or read online (197 pages) here:
> <
> https://www.eternal.life/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/amusing-ourselves-to-death.pdf
> >
>


I read Amusing Ourselves To Death when it came it, and it has been
increasingly eerie how spot-on he was when he wrote that book

Dwayne
-- 
  ddraig at pobox.com              ddraigbot / NSO / Connery
         ...r.e.t.u.r.n....t.o....t.h.e....s.o.u.r.c.e...
                   http://fav.me/dqkgpd
<http://tinyurl.com/he-is-right-you-know-jpg>
our aim is wakefulness,  our enemy is dreamless sleep
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From henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com  Sun Jul 25 11:42:54 2021
From: henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com (Henrik Ohrstrom)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 13:42:54 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Mortality figures in covid-19
In-Reply-To: <b465b88af06a4964915e58c122553d81@regionorebrolan.se>
References: <b465b88af06a4964915e58c122553d81@regionorebrolan.se>
Message-ID: <CAF0GBniHpgfLCu+b35gbBwHu9ZoVTzfODVd4NPZD1Z43nvXKgw@mail.gmail.com>

A good collection of data re mortality morbidity numbers caused by
covid-19, mainly for Sweden but with comments about other places.
In Swedish but you are grownups who know how to use Google translate.

Swedish statistics are if anything overzealous. Basically anyone who has
been infected with covid-19 and died within 30 days are included. Since we
have good control of who's who, those numbers are as good as any statistics
are ever going to be.
However some are only included in the excess mortality numbers, mainly when
there are more than 30 days and a discharge from hospital between infection
and death.

Anyhow, mortality figures between 0.004% for younger than 34 years and >28%
for older than 85 years. That adds up to a mortality of 0.5-1% depending on
age cutoffs in the calculations.
That is rather significant....

Looks like reinfections is quite likely but all figures go down to
influenza levels with mortality projections of about 0.039% on population
levels.  (This is not covered in this article btw)

Woe all unprotected tribes in the shingles and islands, yet another way to
die.
/Henrik

https://lakartidningen.se/klinik-och-vetenskap-1/artiklar-1/klinisk-oversikt/2021/07/god-samstammighet-mellan-olika-svenska-matt-pa-avlidna-i-covid-19/?utm_source=Paloma&utm_medium=Newsletter&utm_campaign=Astra+Zenecas+vaccin+fasas+ut
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