From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Jun  1 00:43:54 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2021 19:43:54 -0500
Subject: [ExI] china's babies
In-Reply-To: <996614353.1405663.1622497768003@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CAO+xQEabtqDxkQ5R=pu_riGfAqEfBUjTpD10ZJohZejbZvBBbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT5fMoO33a5wAz3knJMKE1qtpEnGKhkZ0ooEMsUJ6s6HQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ6wLgUYb6B6+iqjxQ+LOFeqTtqzxQKrY-vihbFKScCPA@mail.gmail.com>
 <996614353.1405663.1622497768003@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYhG8FGsb54L8MiBdVvhAPJEAycPHmOPp6ULCsv+KfKTw@mail.gmail.com>

Everybody has gills.  They are vestiges, like appendixes.  They are more
prominent at one embryonic stage.  Of course they close and we can't see
them.

Similarly, a rare case of a baby born with a tail tells us that we are
descended from apes that had tails.   "Well, I'll be a monkey's uncle!"
No, you'll be an ape's cousin.  bill w

On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 4:52 PM Sherry Knepper via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Bill w, a girl has gills?
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
> <https://go.onelink.me/107872968?pid=InProduct&c=Global_Internal_YGrowth_AndroidEmailSig__AndroidUsers&af_wl=ym&af_sub1=Internal&af_sub2=Global_YGrowth&af_sub3=EmailSignature>
>
> On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 2:19 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Tue Jun  1 01:02:21 2021
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2021 18:02:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] china's babies
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYhG8FGsb54L8MiBdVvhAPJEAycPHmOPp6ULCsv+KfKTw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYhG8FGsb54L8MiBdVvhAPJEAycPHmOPp6ULCsv+KfKTw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7C45D9F8-5D3C-4445-87DD-4D5513CC9B7A@gmail.com>

On May 31, 2021, at 5:47 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> Everybody has gills.  They are vestiges, like appendixes.  They are more prominent at one embryonic stage.  Of course they close and we can't see them. 

Not exactly gills but gill arches in human embryos.

> Similarly, a rare case of a baby born with a tail tells us that we are descended from apes that had tails.   "Well, I'll be a monkey's uncle!"  No, you'll be an ape's cousin.  bill w

Actually, apes are tailless, but the ape clade evolved from a clade with tails. Just have to push it back another branch or two of the evolutionary tree. ;)

Regards,

Dan
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From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Jun  1 03:54:43 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2021 20:54:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Japan Wants to Build Intercontinental Passenger
 Spaceships by the Early 2040s
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy3qZE_TonePqsHSQA-sGQ-08whW4_2PDVE7T2sBtJMBQA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy3qZE_TonePqsHSQA-sGQ-08whW4_2PDVE7T2sBtJMBQA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNS68RmEeZXz+qGjugvZokdd1msqiQohco2ZU_C24hAVPg@mail.gmail.com>

Elon studied this idea too.  The problem is market: the global nonmilitary
(since the military uses their own transportation for this) demand for such
fast travel is not enough to offset the cost of operation, let alone R&D.

On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 5:15 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> "A booming space industry is making it easier than ever to get into
> orbit, but Japan is betting that it could revolutionize terrestrial
> travel, too. The country?s science ministry has unveiled a plan to
> develop intercontinental passenger spaceships by the early 2040s.
>
> The idea of using spaceships to travel from one point on the Earth?s
> surface to another has been around since at least the 1960s, but the cost
> and complexity of the idea have meant it?s been little more than a pipe
> dream.
>
> In principle, the approach isn?t that different from the one used by
> intercontinental ballistic missiles. A rocket is used to blast the payload,
> be it a nuclear weapon or a passenger spaceship, on a big looping
> trajectory into space before re-entering the atmosphere on the other side
> of the planet.
>
> The approach could make it possible to travel between continents in under
> an hour, and now Japan has outlined it
> <https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20210515/p2a/00m/0sc/013000c?mc_cid=67a7de0a4f&mc_eid=17e73a80fc>s
> vision
> <https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20210515/p2a/00m/0sc/013000c?mc_cid=67a7de0a4f&mc_eid=17e73a80fc>
> for how to make the idea a reality. In a roadmap unveiled at an expert
> panel earlier this month, its science ministry put forward a two-phase
> plan it predicts could support a 5 trillion yen ($46 billion) market for
> spaceships departing from and arriving in Japan.
>
> Local reports on the strategy are light on detail, but it seems to rely on
> the Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA) achieving dramatic reductions
> in the cost of launching vehicles into space.
>
> The country?s next-generation H3 rocket
> <https://global.jaxa.jp/projects/rockets/h3/>, which is due for a maiden
> flight this year, costs roughly five billion yen, and the roadmap
> predicts that tactics like reusing rocket parts
> <https://singularityhub.com/2021/05/17/spacex-milestone-signals-reusable-rockets-are-becoming-mainstream/>
> will allow them to halve that cost by 2030, and get it down to as low as 10
> percent by the early 2040s.
>
> They will then rely on private companies to develop transport vehicles
> that can carry passengers. They envisage two different kinds of spaceships:
> a spaceplane similar to the space shuttle that can land on a runway like a
> normal aircraft, and one that lands vertically like SpaceX
> <https://singularityhub.com/tag/spacex/>?s reusable rockets."
>
> https://singularityhub.com/2021/05/30/japan-wants-to-build-intercontinental-passenger-spaceships-by-the-early-2040s/
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From bronto at pobox.com  Tue Jun  1 04:46:48 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2021 21:46:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 
 =?utf-8?q?See_the_Wild_Plans_for_N=C3=BCwa=2C_a_Proposed_C?=
 =?utf-8?q?ity_on_Mars_Built_Inside_a_Giant_Cliff?=
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy3rcy77Bgwpz+q8gr3tXQ2AB0vPpni+u97so2MquFe1cg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy3rcy77Bgwpz+q8gr3tXQ2AB0vPpni+u97so2MquFe1cg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2980de49-84ad-3752-4a72-ec130d9462a2@pobox.com>

On 2021-5-31 05:29, John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote:
> [...] the idea is to excavate those cliffs and build the city inside. [...]
> The ?macro-buildings? designed for the city are modular and in the shape 
> of huge tubes (10 meters wide by 60 meters long), with different models 
> meant for living and working. The modules would be linked by tunnels and 
> elevators, not unlike those found in urban areas on Earth. [...]

KSR would approve.

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org



From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Jun  1 05:47:05 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2021 22:47:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?See_the_Wild_Plans_for_N=C3=BCwa=2C_a_Proposed_C?=
	=?utf-8?q?ity_on_Mars_Built_Inside_a_Giant_Cliff?=
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy3rcy77Bgwpz+q8gr3tXQ2AB0vPpni+u97so2MquFe1cg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy3rcy77Bgwpz+q8gr3tXQ2AB0vPpni+u97so2MquFe1cg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRhiMLaKeC-EppS=ewre9201t1LhQHvNj5je1PJ8_2tOw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 5:38 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Elon Musk and Kanye West shall lead them...
>
While the economic and political ends are better explored than in most
proposals, ultimately the economics rest on the untenable assumption that
merely living on Mars would itself be worth a lot of money to an endless
flood of people able to pay said high price.  It categorically rejects the
notion of trade with Earth: once any matter enters their system, it never
leaves.

This is not viable, no matter the amount of attention paid to the physical
infrastructure.
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Jun  1 10:16:30 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2021 18:16:30 +0800
Subject: [ExI] What sf/fantasy series are on your "try to watch fairly
 soon/someday" list?
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy2FZAWLNSFAjUyuuhWBLAX2-FkyONNYJ+KKz8FPepQK9g@mail.gmail.com>

 My own list... And it only gets longer and longer with the passage of
time! Lol

The Mandalorian (I only saw the first two great fantastic episodes, but
will soon remedy that...)
Stargirl (I saw the first episode which looked great)
Supergirl (I saw the first several very good seasons)
The Expanse (I only saw the first excellent season. I must finish it!)
Black Mirror (I have only seen a handful of episodes, the series scares me)
Humans (I want to see either the European original or the American reboot)
Agents of Shield (I was not overly impressed with the first season, but
people have told me to give it a chance)
Doctor Who (I need to start watching it again. I have not seen the female
doctor yet)
West World (I liked the first season but heard it went downhill)
Legion (I loved this crazy series about the son of Professor X. I need to
see the final season)
Star Trek Discovery (I very much enjoyed the first season, but have not
watched further)
The Orville (I've only seen two episodes but really enjoyed it)
Lost Girl (A pg sexy series I enjoyed but never finished)
Walking Dead (I saw perhaps the first five seasons which were excellent)
Continuum (I only saw the first episode, but the concept seemed fascinating
and it was well reviewed)
Person of Interest (I loved this series but never saw the series finale!)
Killjoys (I only saw one episode, but it looked fun and smarter than I
would have expected)
Dark Matter (A cool sf concept and good ratings. I never saw it)
Travelers (I have never seen it, but the premise is fascinating)
Misfits (A British series about people gaining powers which is supposed to
be good)
The Man in the High Castle (I was so excited about this series, but only
saw the pilot and the series finale!  Lol)
Undone (I have heard so many good things about this unusual fantasy series.
I must watch it)
Ascension (A generation ship! I only saw the first episode, but the premise
is great.)
Titans (I loved the comic, and supposedly they do a decent job despite a
limited tv budget)
Dark (A German masterpiece of the macabre from what I hear)
Final Space (A sf animated comedy that sounds cool)
Impulse (Teleportation powers via the Jumper book series)
Star Trek Short Treks (Not the best reviews but I am curious)
Star Trek Lower Decks (Animated fun. I enjoyed the one episode I saw)
For All Mankind (From the lead producer of DS9 and BSG! I will definitely
get around to watching it)
Star Trek Enterprise (I got quickly tired of it,but friends told me the
final two seasons were actually great)
Falling Skies (I really enjoyed the first season and want to finish it)
Blake's 7 (A sf classic that I need to finish. I really enjoyed the first
episode)
Colony (An interesting concept of an Earth under alien occupation. I never
watched it)
Devs (I keep on hearing how brilliant this show is, and so I must find out
for myself)
Lovecraft Country (I saw the terrific first episode. I need to finish this
series!)
Lucifer (The first two seasons were excellent. I must finish it)
Tales From The Loop (The inspiration for this series is what fascinates me!
I gotta watch it soon. The reviews were good)
Space Force (I loved the first episode and need to finish it. A terrific
cast)
Avenue Five (Hugh Laurie as the captain of a cruise ship in space! Lol I
gotta see it!)
Wandavision (The first episode was wacky like I Love Lucy, but I've been
told the series only grows from there)
Doom Patrol (I loved the first season and need to finish it)
The Witcher (The first season had potential, but the show built around the
terrific lead is weak)
The Dark Crystal (I've been saving this series as if it's a piece of prized
chocolate)
Kingdom (Korean historical horror with zombies!)
The Umbrella Academy (I saw the first episode and was very impressed. I
need to finish it!)
The Order (Harry Potter with more of an edge, from what I have read)
The Magicians (I never read the books, which I hear makes watching the fun
series easier)
Deadly Class (I enjoy the premise of a crime school for the pre-eminent
crime families of the world)
The Passage (I love "secret gov't facility for genetically engineered
mutants" types of shows)
Legends of Tomorrow (I got a kick out of the first season. And I've heard
it evolved well over the following ones)
Black Lightning (It looks like fun and is well done. I need to watch it)
Nightflyers (Mixed reviews but I did like the old eighties film based on a
George R.R. Martin story)
American Gods (I loved the novel and the first season of the show. But I've
heard it had quality problems later on)
Jessica Jones (I only saw the first two episodes, but it was excellent)
Better Than Us (A Russian series about androids in the near future that
sounds very good and different, not the usual rise of the machines stuff)
Adventure Time (I need to watch the final season of this much beloved
series!)
Agent Carter (I only saw the first few episodes, but it was great and it
deserved several seasons)
Ash versus the Evil Dead (Crazy over the top fun and I loved the  first
season, but found the second perhaps too gory)
The Flash (I loved the first three seasons and need to catch up)
Neil Gaiman?s Likely Stories (How did I miss hearing about this series?
Wow... I got to hear him speak in Arizona and was so touched by his
humanity and storytelling abilities)
iZombie (I really enjoyed the first two seasons and need to finish this
series with such a great cast. The main villain has a background of having
been an abusive Dungeons & Dragons Dungeonmaster as a teenager, which I
find hilarious)
Gotham (very well done but I never finished it)
The Strain (Very scary vampires and I need to watch the final season)
Outlander (I know the author, but still have not read the excellent books
or seen the wonderful tv adaptation)
Altered Carbon (I have seen a few episodes, but did not feel drawn to it)
Mr. Robot (a terrific series that I need to finish. I only saw the first
three excellent episodes)
Luke Cage (I saw the first few episodes and the fight scenes were terrific)
Warrior Nun (The name alone drew my interest! Lol It supposedly is a fun
fantasy actioner)
Farscape (I have only seen one episode. The muppet aliens make the show
hard for me to take seriously. Also, the villain looks like a male bondage
dominatrix)
Haven (I'm just enough of a Stephen King fan to want to watch this
supposedly very good series)
Jeremiah (I like the premise but have only seen a few episodes. The man
behind Babylon 5 did this show)
Orphan Black (I keep on hearing about what a brilliant show it is and that
the lead actress is just amazing as she plays the various clones)

It is almost overwhelming, in terms of the number of shows that come out.
I'm just not a television watcher like I was when I was younger. I find it
interesting how some series can still utterly grab me, such as Invincible,
Game of Thrones, The Boys, Stranger Things, Love, Death and Robots, Star
Trek: Picard, Helix, Chuck, Eureka, Raised by Wolves, Dead Like Me, Blood
of Zeus, What We Do in the Shadows, and a number of others.

I look forward to seeing your lists...

John  : )
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Tue Jun  1 20:08:08 2021
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2021 20:08:08 +0000
Subject: [ExI] What sf/fantasy series are on your "try to watch fairly
 soon/someday" list?
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy2FZAWLNSFAjUyuuhWBLAX2-FkyONNYJ+KKz8FPepQK9g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy2FZAWLNSFAjUyuuhWBLAX2-FkyONNYJ+KKz8FPepQK9g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACB7g25pXM0jQe9_wJ5PiRnF62Nz+XTajAnfE0hDHTPmyULrNg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 1, 2021 at 10:13 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> My own list... And it only gets longer and longer with the passage of time! Lol
>
> The Mandalorian (I only saw the first two great fantastic episodes, but will soon remedy that...)
> Stargirl (I saw the first episode which looked great)
> Supergirl (I saw the first several very good seasons)
> The Expanse (I only saw the first excellent season. I must finish it!)
> Black Mirror (I have only seen a handful of episodes, the series scares me)
> Humans (I want to see either the European original or the American reboot)
> Agents of Shield (I was not overly impressed with the first season, but people have told me to give it a chance)
> Doctor Who (I need to start watching it again. I have not seen the female doctor yet)
> West World (I liked the first season but heard it went downhill)
> Legion (I loved this crazy series about the son of Professor X. I need to see the final season)
> Star Trek Discovery (I very much enjoyed the first season, but have not watched further)
> The Orville (I've only seen two episodes but really enjoyed it)
> Lost Girl (A pg sexy series I enjoyed but never finished)
> Walking Dead (I saw perhaps the first five seasons which were excellent)
> Continuum (I only saw the first episode, but the concept seemed fascinating and it was well reviewed)
> Person of Interest (I loved this series but never saw the series finale!)
> Killjoys (I only saw one episode, but it looked fun and smarter than I would have expected)
> Dark Matter (A cool sf concept and good ratings. I never saw it)
> Travelers (I have never seen it, but the premise is fascinating)
> Misfits (A British series about people gaining powers which is supposed to be good)
> The Man in the High Castle (I was so excited about this series, but only saw the pilot and the series finale!  Lol)
> Undone (I have heard so many good things about this unusual fantasy series. I must watch it)
> Ascension (A generation ship! I only saw the first episode, but the premise is great.)
> Titans (I loved the comic, and supposedly they do a decent job despite a limited tv budget)
> Dark (A German masterpiece of the macabre from what I hear)
> Final Space (A sf animated comedy that sounds cool)
> Impulse (Teleportation powers via the Jumper book series)
> Star Trek Short Treks (Not the best reviews but I am curious)
> Star Trek Lower Decks (Animated fun. I enjoyed the one episode I saw)
> For All Mankind (From the lead producer of DS9 and BSG! I will definitely get around to watching it)
> Star Trek Enterprise (I got quickly tired of it,but friends told me the final two seasons were actually great)
> Falling Skies (I really enjoyed the first season and want to finish it)
> Blake's 7 (A sf classic that I need to finish. I really enjoyed the first episode)
> Colony (An interesting concept of an Earth under alien occupation. I never watched it)
> Devs (I keep on hearing how brilliant this show is, and so I must find out for myself)
> Lovecraft Country (I saw the terrific first episode. I need to finish this series!)
> Lucifer (The first two seasons were excellent. I must finish it)
> Tales From The Loop (The inspiration for this series is what fascinates me! I gotta watch it soon. The reviews were good)
> Space Force (I loved the first episode and need to finish it. A terrific cast)
> Avenue Five (Hugh Laurie as the captain of a cruise ship in space! Lol I gotta see it!)
> Wandavision (The first episode was wacky like I Love Lucy, but I've been told the series only grows from there)
> Doom Patrol (I loved the first season and need to finish it)
> The Witcher (The first season had potential, but the show built around the terrific lead is weak)
> The Dark Crystal (I've been saving this series as if it's a piece of prized chocolate)
> Kingdom (Korean historical horror with zombies!)
> The Umbrella Academy (I saw the first episode and was very impressed. I need to finish it!)
> The Order (Harry Potter with more of an edge, from what I have read)
> The Magicians (I never read the books, which I hear makes watching the fun series easier)
> Deadly Class (I enjoy the premise of a crime school for the pre-eminent crime families of the world)
> The Passage (I love "secret gov't facility for genetically engineered mutants" types of shows)
> Legends of Tomorrow (I got a kick out of the first season. And I've heard it evolved well over the following ones)
> Black Lightning (It looks like fun and is well done. I need to watch it)
> Nightflyers (Mixed reviews but I did like the old eighties film based on a George R.R. Martin story)
> American Gods (I loved the novel and the first season of the show. But I've heard it had quality problems later on)
> Jessica Jones (I only saw the first two episodes, but it was excellent)
> Better Than Us (A Russian series about androids in the near future that sounds very good and different, not the usual rise of the machines stuff)
> Adventure Time (I need to watch the final season of this much beloved series!)
> Agent Carter (I only saw the first few episodes, but it was great and it deserved several seasons)
> Ash versus the Evil Dead (Crazy over the top fun and I loved the  first season, but found the second perhaps too gory)
> The Flash (I loved the first three seasons and need to catch up)
> Neil Gaiman?s Likely Stories (How did I miss hearing about this series? Wow... I got to hear him speak in Arizona and was so touched by his humanity and storytelling abilities)
> iZombie (I really enjoyed the first two seasons and need to finish this series with such a great cast. The main villain has a background of having been an abusive Dungeons & Dragons Dungeonmaster as a teenager, which I find hilarious)
> Gotham (very well done but I never finished it)
> The Strain (Very scary vampires and I need to watch the final season)
> Outlander (I know the author, but still have not read the excellent books or seen the wonderful tv adaptation)
> Altered Carbon (I have seen a few episodes, but did not feel drawn to it)
> Mr. Robot (a terrific series that I need to finish. I only saw the first three excellent episodes)
> Luke Cage (I saw the first few episodes and the fight scenes were terrific)
> Warrior Nun (The name alone drew my interest! Lol It supposedly is a fun fantasy actioner)
> Farscape (I have only seen one episode. The muppet aliens make the show hard for me to take seriously. Also, the villain looks like a male bondage dominatrix)
> Haven (I'm just enough of a Stephen King fan to want to watch this supposedly very good series)
> Jeremiah (I like the premise but have only seen a few episodes. The man behind Babylon 5 did this show)
> Orphan Black (I keep on hearing about what a brilliant show it is and that the lead actress is just amazing as she plays the various clones)
>
> It is almost overwhelming, in terms of the number of shows that come out. I'm just not a television watcher like I was when I was younger. I find it interesting how some series can still utterly grab me, such as Invincible, Game of Thrones, The Boys, Stranger Things, Love, Death and Robots, Star Trek: Picard, Helix, Chuck, Eureka, Raised by Wolves, Dead Like Me, Blood of Zeus, What We Do in the Shadows, and a number of others.
>
> I look forward to seeing your lists...

More my response to your list than my own:

Highly recommend the Misfits series and Undone. Both are incredible.

Ascension: saw an episode or two and might finish it, but it hasn't drawn me in.
Blake's 7: want to see.
Dark Matter: very by the book. Didn't watch past a few episodes.
Dark Mirror: want to see as well.
Farscape: well, watched the whole series. It's silly and goes
overboard often. Pure space opera.
iZombie... eh.
The Man in the High Castle: big problem is I read the book. I watched
the whole series nonetheless. So so. It's kind of what happens when
you take a literary great and try to adapt it. Often you end up with,
well, this.
Mr. Robot, first episode great then it went downhill. Still good, but
not enough for me to watch season two.
Nightflyers was silly, IMO, but I watched to the end?.:)

When you said Kingdom, I was reminded of the Danish TV series Riget,
which I highly recommend. No, it's not about zombies -- or not
completely, so not a close relation to the Korean series. (A closer
relation to the awful US series. Don't compare them. A friend of mine
saw the US version first and told me when I showed him a few episodes
of the Danish original that the Danish version was ten times better.)

Biggest disappointment, since I read all the books (or drooled over
the artwork:), was Tales from the Loop. I watched the whole run, but
it was poorly written and not well thought out. The only thing they
seemed to have done was keep the backdrop (retrofuturist robots and
tech) and tried to channel the melancholy.

I'd also recommend Electric Dreams. Uneven adaptation of some PKD
stories. And The Omega Factor. I saw the latter on DVD a few years
ago. It's like a Scottish version of Fringe (if you don't know Fringe,
you should), but from the 1970s. Sadly, it only ran one season.

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst


From bmd54321 at gmail.com  Wed Jun  2 09:32:58 2021
From: bmd54321 at gmail.com (Brian Manning Delaney)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2021 05:32:58 -0400
Subject: [ExI] What sf/fantasy series are on your "try to watch fairly
 soon/someday" list?
In-Reply-To: <CACB7g25pXM0jQe9_wJ5PiRnF62Nz+XTajAnfE0hDHTPmyULrNg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy2FZAWLNSFAjUyuuhWBLAX2-FkyONNYJ+KKz8FPepQK9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACB7g25pXM0jQe9_wJ5PiRnF62Nz+XTajAnfE0hDHTPmyULrNg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f147fb47-9c7e-514e-55ec-c18406d6396e@gmail.com>

El 2021-06-01 a las 16:08, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat escribi?:
> On Tue, Jun 1, 2021 at 10:13 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> My own list... And it only gets longer and longer with the passage of time! Lol
>>
>> The Mandalorian (I only saw the first two great fantastic episodes, but will soon remedy that...)
>> Stargirl (I saw the first episode which looked great)
>> Supergirl (I saw the first several very good seasons)
>> The Expanse (I only saw the first excellent season. I must finish it!)
>> Black Mirror (I have only seen a handful of episodes, the series scares me)
>> Humans (I want to see either the European original or the American reboot)
>> Agents of Shield (I was not overly impressed with the first season, but people have told me to give it a chance)
>> Doctor Who (I need to start watching it again. I have not seen the female doctor yet)
>> West World (I liked the first season but heard it went downhill)
>> Legion (I loved this crazy series about the son of Professor X. I need to see the final season)
>> Star Trek Discovery (I very much enjoyed the first season, but have not watched further)
>> The Orville (I've only seen two episodes but really enjoyed it)
>> Lost Girl (A pg sexy series I enjoyed but never finished)
>> Walking Dead (I saw perhaps the first five seasons which were excellent)
>> Continuum (I only saw the first episode, but the concept seemed fascinating and it was well reviewed)
>> Person of Interest (I loved this series but never saw the series finale!)
>> Killjoys (I only saw one episode, but it looked fun and smarter than I would have expected)
>> Dark Matter (A cool sf concept and good ratings. I never saw it)
>> Travelers (I have never seen it, but the premise is fascinating)
>> Misfits (A British series about people gaining powers which is supposed to be good)
>> The Man in the High Castle (I was so excited about this series, but only saw the pilot and the series finale!  Lol)
>> Undone (I have heard so many good things about this unusual fantasy series. I must watch it)
>> Ascension (A generation ship! I only saw the first episode, but the premise is great.)
>> Titans (I loved the comic, and supposedly they do a decent job despite a limited tv budget)
>> Dark (A German masterpiece of the macabre from what I hear)
>> Final Space (A sf animated comedy that sounds cool)
>> Impulse (Teleportation powers via the Jumper book series)
>> Star Trek Short Treks (Not the best reviews but I am curious)
>> Star Trek Lower Decks (Animated fun. I enjoyed the one episode I saw)
>> For All Mankind (From the lead producer of DS9 and BSG! I will definitely get around to watching it)
>> Star Trek Enterprise (I got quickly tired of it,but friends told me the final two seasons were actually great)
>> Falling Skies (I really enjoyed the first season and want to finish it)
>> Blake's 7 (A sf classic that I need to finish. I really enjoyed the first episode)
>> Colony (An interesting concept of an Earth under alien occupation. I never watched it)
>> Devs (I keep on hearing how brilliant this show is, and so I must find out for myself)
>> Lovecraft Country (I saw the terrific first episode. I need to finish this series!)
>> Lucifer (The first two seasons were excellent. I must finish it)
>> Tales From The Loop (The inspiration for this series is what fascinates me! I gotta watch it soon. The reviews were good)
>> Space Force (I loved the first episode and need to finish it. A terrific cast)
>> Avenue Five (Hugh Laurie as the captain of a cruise ship in space! Lol I gotta see it!)
>> Wandavision (The first episode was wacky like I Love Lucy, but I've been told the series only grows from there)
>> Doom Patrol (I loved the first season and need to finish it)
>> The Witcher (The first season had potential, but the show built around the terrific lead is weak)
>> The Dark Crystal (I've been saving this series as if it's a piece of prized chocolate)
>> Kingdom (Korean historical horror with zombies!)
>> The Umbrella Academy (I saw the first episode and was very impressed. I need to finish it!)
>> The Order (Harry Potter with more of an edge, from what I have read)
>> The Magicians (I never read the books, which I hear makes watching the fun series easier)
>> Deadly Class (I enjoy the premise of a crime school for the pre-eminent crime families of the world)
>> The Passage (I love "secret gov't facility for genetically engineered mutants" types of shows)
>> Legends of Tomorrow (I got a kick out of the first season. And I've heard it evolved well over the following ones)
>> Black Lightning (It looks like fun and is well done. I need to watch it)
>> Nightflyers (Mixed reviews but I did like the old eighties film based on a George R.R. Martin story)
>> American Gods (I loved the novel and the first season of the show. But I've heard it had quality problems later on)
>> Jessica Jones (I only saw the first two episodes, but it was excellent)
>> Better Than Us (A Russian series about androids in the near future that sounds very good and different, not the usual rise of the machines stuff)
>> Adventure Time (I need to watch the final season of this much beloved series!)
>> Agent Carter (I only saw the first few episodes, but it was great and it deserved several seasons)
>> Ash versus the Evil Dead (Crazy over the top fun and I loved the  first season, but found the second perhaps too gory)
>> The Flash (I loved the first three seasons and need to catch up)
>> Neil Gaiman?s Likely Stories (How did I miss hearing about this series? Wow... I got to hear him speak in Arizona and was so touched by his humanity and storytelling abilities)
>> iZombie (I really enjoyed the first two seasons and need to finish this series with such a great cast. The main villain has a background of having been an abusive Dungeons & Dragons Dungeonmaster as a teenager, which I find hilarious)
>> Gotham (very well done but I never finished it)
>> The Strain (Very scary vampires and I need to watch the final season)
>> Outlander (I know the author, but still have not read the excellent books or seen the wonderful tv adaptation)
>> Altered Carbon (I have seen a few episodes, but did not feel drawn to it)
>> Mr. Robot (a terrific series that I need to finish. I only saw the first three excellent episodes)
>> Luke Cage (I saw the first few episodes and the fight scenes were terrific)
>> Warrior Nun (The name alone drew my interest! Lol It supposedly is a fun fantasy actioner)
>> Farscape (I have only seen one episode. The muppet aliens make the show hard for me to take seriously. Also, the villain looks like a male bondage dominatrix)
>> Haven (I'm just enough of a Stephen King fan to want to watch this supposedly very good series)
>> Jeremiah (I like the premise but have only seen a few episodes. The man behind Babylon 5 did this show)
>> Orphan Black (I keep on hearing about what a brilliant show it is and that the lead actress is just amazing as she plays the various clones)
>>
>> It is almost overwhelming, in terms of the number of shows that come out. I'm just not a television watcher like I was when I was younger. I find it interesting how some series can still utterly grab me, such as Invincible, Game of Thrones, The Boys, Stranger Things, Love, Death and Robots, Star Trek: Picard, Helix, Chuck, Eureka, Raised by Wolves, Dead Like Me, Blood of Zeus, What We Do in the Shadows, and a number of others.
>>
>> I look forward to seeing your lists...
> 
> More my response to your list than my own:
> 
> Highly recommend the Misfits series and Undone. Both are incredible.
> 
> Ascension: saw an episode or two and might finish it, but it hasn't drawn me in.
> Blake's 7: want to see.
> Dark Matter: very by the book. Didn't watch past a few episodes.
> Dark Mirror: want to see as well.
> Farscape: well, watched the whole series. It's silly and goes
> overboard often. Pure space opera.
> iZombie... eh.
> The Man in the High Castle: big problem is I read the book. I watched
> the whole series nonetheless. So so. It's kind of what happens when
> you take a literary great and try to adapt it. Often you end up with,
> well, this.
> Mr. Robot, first episode great then it went downhill. Still good, but
> not enough for me to watch season two.
> Nightflyers was silly, IMO, but I watched to the end?.:)
> 
> When you said Kingdom, I was reminded of the Danish TV series Riget,
> which I highly recommend. No, it's not about zombies -- or not
> completely, so not a close relation to the Korean series. (A closer
> relation to the awful US series. Don't compare them. A friend of mine
> saw the US version first and told me when I showed him a few episodes
> of the Danish original that the Danish version was ten times better.)
> 
> Biggest disappointment, since I read all the books (or drooled over
> the artwork:), was Tales from the Loop. I watched the whole run, but
> it was poorly written and not well thought out. The only thing they
> seemed to have done was keep the backdrop (retrofuturist robots and
> tech) and tried to channel the melancholy.
> 
> I'd also recommend Electric Dreams. Uneven adaptation of some PKD
> stories. And The Omega Factor. I saw the latter on DVD a few years
> ago. It's like a Scottish version of Fringe (if you don't know Fringe,
> you should), but from the 1970s. Sadly, it only ran one season.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Dan
>    Sample my Kindle books via:
> http://author.to/DanUst
> 

Great list(s). Thanks.

Two shows not mentioned, both of which I liked:

Counterpart. (One of my favorite sci-fi shows ever. Canceled after two 
seasons.)

FlashForward. (Based loosely on the book.)

Brian

From lostmyelectron at protonmail.com  Wed Jun  2 14:18:55 2021
From: lostmyelectron at protonmail.com (Gabe Waggoner)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2021 14:18:55 +0000
Subject: [ExI] What sf/fantasy series are on your "try to watch fairly
 soon/someday" list?
In-Reply-To: <f147fb47-9c7e-514e-55ec-c18406d6396e@gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy2FZAWLNSFAjUyuuhWBLAX2-FkyONNYJ+KKz8FPepQK9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACB7g25pXM0jQe9_wJ5PiRnF62Nz+XTajAnfE0hDHTPmyULrNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <f147fb47-9c7e-514e-55ec-c18406d6396e@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <i7reDLEiSJtvhiiJ1Qm4FaRvWqbh9SHIleFHdatja79ZidBDcM4laYmh4Mh3KAw_ZeElUy-HOOz1E2VRZ6aONPObTwjEhpIl1LaIxVgjnUw=@protonmail.com>

??????? Original Message ???????
<snip>

> Counterpart. (One of my favorite sci-fi shows ever. Canceled after two
>
> seasons.)
>
> FlashForward. (Based loosely on the book.)
>
> Brian

Great to see such robust discussion of sci-fi!

I, too, enjoyed Counterpart and FlashForward (I want to read the book). I loved Dark (dubbed from German but so effectively that it?s easy to forget, and it has a great soundtrack), Continuum, and Travelers. Dark Matter I enjoyed both conceptually and because it had several cast members from my beloved Stargate and Stargate: Atlantis. Colony was pretty good. I?m not a big history fan and thus didn?t expect to enjoy Outlander as a series, but I?ve ended up really liking it. The Orville is a great love letter to Star Trek.

I grew up on Star Trek. I cherish the original, TNG, DS9, and VOY; I watched Enterprise but found it derivative in its constant attempts to retroactively explain, e.g., the Borg, the smooth-headed Klingons, the Khan supermen. I watched Picard but didn?t care for it (yeah, I know I?m in the minority there). I haven?t seen any of Discovery other than the first half of the pilot that aired on network before CBS All Access became the only portal?but I didn?t like it so much. Haven?t seen any of the newer shows in the franchise.

Fringe is easily one of the best series I?ve ever seen (sort of like The X-Files meets The Twilight Zone and any basic crime procedural).

Also loved Alias. The Rambaldi mythology resonated with me and helped foster my interest in life extension. Basically, Milo Rambaldi was Nostradamus + da Vinci and had genius-level knowledge, developing advanced technology and revolutionary medicines centuries ahead of his time, as well as prophesying about modern times and the show's protagonist, an intelligence community double agent played by Jennifer Garner. The first two seasons are the best, and some gems are in the rest. Worth watching for me also because of the stellar Lena Olin and Victor Garber.

Battlestar Galactica (the remake) was good, too.

Apple's For All Mankind is excellent?I just finished the second season and enjoyed the show much more than I thought I would from reading the premise.

Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles was fun. I like how that franchise can keep reenvisioning its premise.

I also admit to periodically watching Buck Rogers (just to hear Twiki's one-liners) and Space 1999 (if only for the dramatic quarter-turn that Barbara Bain does in the opening credits).

As a kid, I really liked the animated French show Spartakus and the Sun Beneath the Sea. In brief: After a great cataclysm, a city of advanced humans plummets to deep in Earth?s strata. They have advanced technology but later forget their origins, believing the surface to have been destroyed. They evolve physically but forget how some of their technology works. Their artificial sun begins to fail, and they create a human representative to travel through the strata (apparently entire worlds can exist in them) looking for help to fix their sun.

I'm sure I'm forgetting some.

Gabe
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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Jun  2 18:08:14 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2021 11:08:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Humans will go crazy in space travel
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgjMymhKCLZG5JmDmJ=14cRrDQ16kzBftVT0jYwafat8A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgjMymhKCLZG5JmDmJ=14cRrDQ16kzBftVT0jYwafat8A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSR96r5Lc+w73nk9HKi78QPccTZ-iji2mGz0_tgpXDr_g@mail.gmail.com>

This is why I advocate for O'Neill cylinders and other large habitats:
having a large interior makes long term living more tolerable for most
people.

I have recently been working on some science fiction (apparently due to be
published no earlier than November of this year, more likely in the first
half of next year) about a certain race that is extremely claustrophobic
(the K'kree, from Traveller).  One way they took to the stars was in
cylindrical arks, 2 km in diameter and 2 km long, with 50 meter tall
"decks" (10m of structure and 40m of open air).  The outermost deck is spun
up to 1 G; each 50m up/in reduces this by 0.05 G (that is: the outermost
deck is at 1 G, the next deck in is at 0.95 G, then 0.9, 0.85, and so on).
This continues from 1 km radius to 0.55 km radius; the decks at 0.5 km and
inward from there are reserved for ship systems (portions of the 0.55 km
and 0.6 km radius decks are also used for that) such as power plant (the
arks are not always close to a sun, such as when travelling FTL between
solar systems), engine (the setting I'm writing for assumes hyper-efficient
"maneuver drives"), and fuel.

This means that there is a horizon (curving up instead of down, but still a
horizon) forward and back along the curvature of the cylinder, on any
inhabited deck.  You can go to that horizon and see more land, but then you
can't see all the land that you could from the point where that was the
horizon.  Along the other horizontal axis, 2 km is far enough to not
trigger "this is an enclosed room" feelings; there may be fog, or at least
buildings, such that one can rarely if ever see one wall from the other.
Between these factors, living inside one of these feels close enough to
living outdoors on a planet to satisfy this race's instincts.

Humanity's needs are not nearly as extreme, but I could see this setup
working for humans too, maybe with (or maybe not needing) more space
between decks.

On Sun, May 30, 2021 at 12:51 PM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Slate have an article up about how humans will find it very difficult to
> cope with space travel and living on other planets or asteroids.
>
> <
> https://slate.com/technology/2021/05/spacex-starship-space-travel-paradox.html
> >
>
> The Spacefaring Paradox
> Deep-space human travel is a lose-lose proposition.
>
> By Christopher Schaber      May 25, 2021
>
> Quotes:
> If there?s one collective lesson gleaned from the COVID pandemic so
> far, it may be the shared difficulty of being isolated in one?s own
> home?whether alone or with family members or roommates.
> When space closes in, humans tend not to thrive. It can drive us to
> the brink of craziness.
> ----
> If the dream of space travel involves new horizons and feelings of
> unbound freedom?to explore, to discover, to spread humanity?a
> nightmare lurks just around the corner of consciousness. There will be
> no real ?arrival? on this fantasy trip: It?s enclosures and
> pressurized chambers all the way down. When it comes to human space
> travel, the destination really is the journey. And the journey will be
> long, and claustrophobic.
> -------------------
>
> I think I mostly agree. Humans are designed for the wide-open spaces
> of Earth. Space is interesting to visit for a while, but I wouldn't
> much want a life spent in a tin can.
> I vote to send the robots instead.
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Jun  2 20:37:14 2021
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2021 21:37:14 +0100
Subject: [ExI] General Theory of General Intelligence
Message-ID: <CAL_armg-t_3oYuwhkidziarBZ2cdM2uodSa0mFdQrt3RC9EtwA@mail.gmail.com>

Ben Goertzel has been working on a lengthy review paper he recently
posted titled The General Theory of General Intelligence: A Pragmatic
Patternist Perspective.

He has written an introduction and produced a ten-part video series.
Read the intro here:
<https://bengoertzel.substack.com/p/general-theory-of-general-intelligence>

(links to the videos are in the intro)

BillK

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Jun  2 21:32:13 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2021 16:32:13 -0500
Subject: [ExI] General Theory of General Intelligence
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armg-t_3oYuwhkidziarBZ2cdM2uodSa0mFdQrt3RC9EtwA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armg-t_3oYuwhkidziarBZ2cdM2uodSa0mFdQrt3RC9EtwA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZ_J3R-Jtz9Kf33+WYwMT_VhOGsbGhtAs0kCDGPPsxsDQ@mail.gmail.com>

I got the abstract of the review but want to see the full review and a link
to the paper he is reviewing. Thanks!  Bill W

On Wed, Jun 2, 2021 at 3:40 PM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Ben Goertzel has been working on a lengthy review paper he recently
> posted titled The General Theory of General Intelligence: A Pragmatic
> Patternist Perspective.
>
> He has written an introduction and produced a ten-part video series.
> Read the intro here:
> <https://bengoertzel.substack.com/p/general-theory-of-general-intelligence
> >
>
> (links to the videos are in the intro)
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Jun  2 21:38:51 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2021 16:38:51 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Humans will go crazy in space travel
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSR96r5Lc+w73nk9HKi78QPccTZ-iji2mGz0_tgpXDr_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgjMymhKCLZG5JmDmJ=14cRrDQ16kzBftVT0jYwafat8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSR96r5Lc+w73nk9HKi78QPccTZ-iji2mGz0_tgpXDr_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaB==dSwL1Ja-+CwcJvD+yVqhQn7RV9V8S0cyvNTrD8vA@mail.gmail.com>

to satisfy this race's instincts  Adrian

This pushes one of my buttons.  People use the word instinct a lot but
never explain how they are using it or where they are getting their data
from, or just what instincts we have.  I realize that you are likely using
it in a casual sense, but I am troubled when people use words they cannot
or do not define.  There is no accepted definition for the word in
psychology.  Often it is equated with intuition or even gut feelings.  I
would have written 'preferences' instead.   bill w

On Wed, Jun 2, 2021 at 1:11 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> This is why I advocate for O'Neill cylinders and other large habitats:
> having a large interior makes long term living more tolerable for most
> people.
>
> I have recently been working on some science fiction (apparently due to be
> published no earlier than November of this year, more likely in the first
> half of next year) about a certain race that is extremely claustrophobic
> (the K'kree, from Traveller).  One way they took to the stars was in
> cylindrical arks, 2 km in diameter and 2 km long, with 50 meter tall
> "decks" (10m of structure and 40m of open air).  The outermost deck is spun
> up to 1 G; each 50m up/in reduces this by 0.05 G (that is: the outermost
> deck is at 1 G, the next deck in is at 0.95 G, then 0.9, 0.85, and so on).
> This continues from 1 km radius to 0.55 km radius; the decks at 0.5 km and
> inward from there are reserved for ship systems (portions of the 0.55 km
> and 0.6 km radius decks are also used for that) such as power plant (the
> arks are not always close to a sun, such as when travelling FTL between
> solar systems), engine (the setting I'm writing for assumes hyper-efficient
> "maneuver drives"), and fuel.
>
> This means that there is a horizon (curving up instead of down, but still
> a horizon) forward and back along the curvature of the cylinder, on any
> inhabited deck.  You can go to that horizon and see more land, but then you
> can't see all the land that you could from the point where that was the
> horizon.  Along the other horizontal axis, 2 km is far enough to not
> trigger "this is an enclosed room" feelings; there may be fog, or at least
> buildings, such that one can rarely if ever see one wall from the other.
> Between these factors, living inside one of these feels close enough to
> living outdoors on a planet to satisfy this race's instincts.
>
> Humanity's needs are not nearly as extreme, but I could see this setup
> working for humans too, maybe with (or maybe not needing) more space
> between decks.
>
> On Sun, May 30, 2021 at 12:51 PM BillK via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Slate have an article up about how humans will find it very difficult to
>> cope with space travel and living on other planets or asteroids.
>>
>> <
>> https://slate.com/technology/2021/05/spacex-starship-space-travel-paradox.html
>> >
>>
>> The Spacefaring Paradox
>> Deep-space human travel is a lose-lose proposition.
>>
>> By Christopher Schaber      May 25, 2021
>>
>> Quotes:
>> If there?s one collective lesson gleaned from the COVID pandemic so
>> far, it may be the shared difficulty of being isolated in one?s own
>> home?whether alone or with family members or roommates.
>> When space closes in, humans tend not to thrive. It can drive us to
>> the brink of craziness.
>> ----
>> If the dream of space travel involves new horizons and feelings of
>> unbound freedom?to explore, to discover, to spread humanity?a
>> nightmare lurks just around the corner of consciousness. There will be
>> no real ?arrival? on this fantasy trip: It?s enclosures and
>> pressurized chambers all the way down. When it comes to human space
>> travel, the destination really is the journey. And the journey will be
>> long, and claustrophobic.
>> -------------------
>>
>> I think I mostly agree. Humans are designed for the wide-open spaces
>> of Earth. Space is interesting to visit for a while, but I wouldn't
>> much want a life spent in a tin can.
>> I vote to send the robots instead.
>>
>> BillK
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Jun  2 21:57:49 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2021 14:57:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Humans will go crazy in space travel
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaB==dSwL1Ja-+CwcJvD+yVqhQn7RV9V8S0cyvNTrD8vA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgjMymhKCLZG5JmDmJ=14cRrDQ16kzBftVT0jYwafat8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSR96r5Lc+w73nk9HKi78QPccTZ-iji2mGz0_tgpXDr_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaB==dSwL1Ja-+CwcJvD+yVqhQn7RV9V8S0cyvNTrD8vA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNT9xBnNrzqSW-1URfEDySDo18Cs_AsCeKUKpM+_1hRv6Q@mail.gmail.com>

In this case, I am writing for a setting - that particular alien race
included - that has been previously established.  It is defined a priori
that they have claustrophobic instincts, not just preferences.  "These
things are biologically wired into their brains" seems not entirely
credible given the degree to which the setting specifies it (the fine
details call into question how they can routinely board spacecraft in order
to travel, yet they are depicted as ruling and inhabiting a vast domain of
solar systems), but the specification is there.

Granted, one can claim this definition has only ever - so far - been
provided via unreliable narrators that have reason to be biased on this
point.  (It seems akin to IRL people who claim that all men have the
uncontrollable overwhelming instinct to rape any women they see, and the
only viable countermeasure is for women to cover up in public if they are
even allowed to go about unescorted in public.)  Part of what I'm writing
is intended to start addressing this point, showing that these may be more
preferences than instincts, or at least that they have ways to address said
instincts.  But the prior material clearly claims instincts.

On Wed, Jun 2, 2021 at 2:42 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> to satisfy this race's instincts  Adrian
>
> This pushes one of my buttons.  People use the word instinct a lot but
> never explain how they are using it or where they are getting their data
> from, or just what instincts we have.  I realize that you are likely using
> it in a casual sense, but I am troubled when people use words they cannot
> or do not define.  There is no accepted definition for the word in
> psychology.  Often it is equated with intuition or even gut feelings.  I
> would have written 'preferences' instead.   bill w
>
> On Wed, Jun 2, 2021 at 1:11 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> This is why I advocate for O'Neill cylinders and other large habitats:
>> having a large interior makes long term living more tolerable for most
>> people.
>>
>> I have recently been working on some science fiction (apparently due to
>> be published no earlier than November of this year, more likely in the
>> first half of next year) about a certain race that is extremely
>> claustrophobic (the K'kree, from Traveller).  One way they took to the
>> stars was in cylindrical arks, 2 km in diameter and 2 km long, with 50
>> meter tall "decks" (10m of structure and 40m of open air).  The outermost
>> deck is spun up to 1 G; each 50m up/in reduces this by 0.05 G (that is: the
>> outermost deck is at 1 G, the next deck in is at 0.95 G, then 0.9, 0.85,
>> and so on).  This continues from 1 km radius to 0.55 km radius; the decks
>> at 0.5 km and inward from there are reserved for ship systems (portions of
>> the 0.55 km and 0.6 km radius decks are also used for that) such as power
>> plant (the arks are not always close to a sun, such as when travelling FTL
>> between solar systems), engine (the setting I'm writing for assumes
>> hyper-efficient "maneuver drives"), and fuel.
>>
>> This means that there is a horizon (curving up instead of down, but still
>> a horizon) forward and back along the curvature of the cylinder, on any
>> inhabited deck.  You can go to that horizon and see more land, but then you
>> can't see all the land that you could from the point where that was the
>> horizon.  Along the other horizontal axis, 2 km is far enough to not
>> trigger "this is an enclosed room" feelings; there may be fog, or at least
>> buildings, such that one can rarely if ever see one wall from the other.
>> Between these factors, living inside one of these feels close enough to
>> living outdoors on a planet to satisfy this race's instincts.
>>
>> Humanity's needs are not nearly as extreme, but I could see this setup
>> working for humans too, maybe with (or maybe not needing) more space
>> between decks.
>>
>> On Sun, May 30, 2021 at 12:51 PM BillK via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Slate have an article up about how humans will find it very difficult to
>>> cope with space travel and living on other planets or asteroids.
>>>
>>> <
>>> https://slate.com/technology/2021/05/spacex-starship-space-travel-paradox.html
>>> >
>>>
>>> The Spacefaring Paradox
>>> Deep-space human travel is a lose-lose proposition.
>>>
>>> By Christopher Schaber      May 25, 2021
>>>
>>> Quotes:
>>> If there?s one collective lesson gleaned from the COVID pandemic so
>>> far, it may be the shared difficulty of being isolated in one?s own
>>> home?whether alone or with family members or roommates.
>>> When space closes in, humans tend not to thrive. It can drive us to
>>> the brink of craziness.
>>> ----
>>> If the dream of space travel involves new horizons and feelings of
>>> unbound freedom?to explore, to discover, to spread humanity?a
>>> nightmare lurks just around the corner of consciousness. There will be
>>> no real ?arrival? on this fantasy trip: It?s enclosures and
>>> pressurized chambers all the way down. When it comes to human space
>>> travel, the destination really is the journey. And the journey will be
>>> long, and claustrophobic.
>>> -------------------
>>>
>>> I think I mostly agree. Humans are designed for the wide-open spaces
>>> of Earth. Space is interesting to visit for a while, but I wouldn't
>>> much want a life spent in a tin can.
>>> I vote to send the robots instead.
>>>
>>> BillK
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From ben at zaiboc.net  Wed Jun  2 22:30:54 2021
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2021 23:30:54 +0100
Subject: [ExI] What sf/fantasy series are on your "try to watch fairly
 soon/someday" list?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.9.1622657321.1348.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.9.1622657321.1348.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <71cc501c-814d-953f-26f1-61262a722a7a@zaiboc.net>

On 02/06/2021 19:08, John Grigg wrote:
> My own list... And it only gets longer and longer with the passage of 
> time! Lol

I have nothing to add to that list, and might even try to watch some 
things on it, but here are some of my observations on your list:

Humans: Can't say anything about the american series, but the british 
one is quite good. The original swedish one is the best, but not 
available with english dialogue or even subtitles, unfortunately. 
Swedish or German only.

Doctor Who: The latest doctor caused me to stop watching this. Not 
because she's female, but because the writers have turned it into a 
propaganda vehicle. The villains are white middle-aged men, the heroes 
are relentlessly black/gay/female, you get the idea. Plus Jodie 
Whittaker can't really act. Apart from that, many doctors are very good, 
some are ok, a few are dreadful. The series has had many ups and downs 
over the years (or decades, I should say), but the more recent set have 
been about the best, apart from the aforementioned, which seems to be 
taking it back to the farcical Sylvester McCoy days, but worse, because 
it takes itself seriously.

Westworld: Recommended. Well-done, thought-provoking.

Killjoys: Rubbish. Bad acting, bad plots, I watched about three episodes 
then couldn't be bothered with it any more.

Dark Matter: Excellent, but for one detail. What Killjoys tries to be 
but miserably fails. The detail: they cancelled it, which annoys me 
immensely. Don't start watching it if you will be bothered that you 
never get to see it wrap up the various storylines.

The Witcher: Not sf. Fantasy. Ok if that's your thing.

The Magicians: Don't bother. Tries to be an 'adult' Harry Potter, and 
fails miserably on both counts.

Altered Carbon: I enjoyed it. Not everyone's cup of tea, though, and 
tries a bit too much to be Bladerunner, stylistically.

Farscape: Classic.

Agents of Shield: For Marvel fans only, I think.

No need to say anything about Blakes 7, Enterprise, Babylon 5, etc.

Plus:

Not sf, but I enjoyed Black Sails immensely. Very good blending of 
history and Robert Louis Stevenson, even though it sometimes takes 
liberties with both. I recommend it if you have a liking for Pirate stories.

The most recent Lost in Space (with Toby Stevens, who plays Capt. Flint 
in Black Sails) is quite good. Again, a nice re-imagining of the 
original, with a good twist on Dr Smith.


Ben

-- 
Ben Zaiboc


From bronto at pobox.com  Wed Jun  2 23:38:59 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2021 16:38:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Humans will go crazy in space travel
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onvFfL5TeK6GJKv0YSzEp=gF5E918AQLrjExEUGSEBZaug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgjMymhKCLZG5JmDmJ=14cRrDQ16kzBftVT0jYwafat8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onvFfL5TeK6GJKv0YSzEp=gF5E918AQLrjExEUGSEBZaug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <17488e96-6679-ddca-d602-a44cc93fb8b2@pobox.com>

On 2021-5-30 17:36, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat wrote:
> No, going to space, before we solve these kinds of problems, including 
> redesigning the body so it doesn't need space suites, can be backed up 
> and so on, is just bass ackwards,

Yes, I hope we can do it the right way.  I like Greg Egan's model 
(?Diaspora?):  Most of humanity is software running on giant computers 
hidden in the permafrost (with backups scattered about the Solar 
System).  Each citizen has their private universe, and access to public 
spaces.  A few million people still live in (improved) flesh on Earth, 
most of which is now wilderness.  A few million(??) others live in 
artificial bodies off Earth.

Uploaded humans will likely run at much higher speeds.  Some extropian 
(Robin?) imagined posthuman fairies an inch or two tall, overclocked so 
that gravity looks to them as it does to us, glowing with their waste heat!

Another idea mentioned back then: because no one loves long transmission 
times, civilization could converge to a single glowing sphere one metre 
across.

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org



From bronto at pobox.com  Thu Jun  3 00:18:32 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2021 17:18:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] What sf/fantasy series are on your "try to watch fairly
 soon/someday" list?
In-Reply-To: <71cc501c-814d-953f-26f1-61262a722a7a@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.9.1622657321.1348.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <71cc501c-814d-953f-26f1-61262a722a7a@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <5fa98dd1-f558-c078-cfaf-605213e9922d@pobox.com>

On 2021-6-02 15:30, Ben Zaiboc wrote:
 > Dark Matter: Excellent, but for one detail. What Killjoys tries to be
 > but miserably fails. The detail: they cancelled it, which annoys me
 > immensely. Don't start watching it if you will be bothered that you
 > never get to see it wrap up the various storylines.

Cancellation after three seasons is no excuse for never looking into the 
murder of [spoiler] at the end of the first!


 > The Magicians: Don't bother. Tries to be an 'adult' Harry Potter,
 > and fails miserably on both counts.

I describe it as "Hogwarts meets Narnia, not for children," but that's 
very loose.  The school is a home base through most of the series, but 
we rarely see classrooms after the first season.

I bought the Bluray so you don't have to.  I keep meaning to start a log 
of questions, most beginning with "When did", to answer in a rewatch.


 > Altered Carbon: I enjoyed it. Not everyone's cup of tea, though,
 > and tries a bit too much to be Bladerunner, stylistically.
I quite liked Poe (the AI hotel manager).  How's the second season?


 > Farscape: Classic.

Is there a way to watch it short of buying discs?
Netflix no longer offers season two.


-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org

From sparge at gmail.com  Thu Jun  3 13:04:53 2021
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2021 09:04:53 -0400
Subject: [ExI] AI Could Soon Write Code Based on Ordinary Language
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy1tYBRQSZL6b-7Qrvj7FxU2OhibSCfYdiZ_rwEeAc9CUQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy1tYBRQSZL6b-7Qrvj7FxU2OhibSCfYdiZ_rwEeAc9CUQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fCoKWGMrrj-t9N8icEpeWYJ-S8B9=hyFbhX2HcJxHnGw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 27, 2021 at 3:27 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> "In recent years, researchers have used artificial intelligence
> <https://www.wired.com/tag/artificial-intelligence/> to improve
> translation <https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.03511> between programming
> languages or automatically fix problems <https://arxiv.org/abs/2005.10636>.
> The AI system DrRepair, for example, has been shown to solve most issues
> that spawn error messages. But some researchers dream of the day when AI
> can write programs based on simple descriptions from non-experts.
>

Ha. Dream on. I mean, sure, maybe someday...

> On Tuesday, Microsoft <https://www.wired.com/tag/microsoft/> and OpenAI
> <https://www.wired.com/tag/openai/> shared plans to bring GPT-3, one of
> the world?s most advanced models for generating text, to programming based
> on natural language descriptions. This is the first commercial application
> of GPT-3 undertaken since Microsoft invested $1 billion in OpenAI last year
> and gained exclusive licensing rights to GPT-3.
>
Har dee har har. The thought of GPT-3 writing code is hilarious and
frightening. Humans have a very hard time specifying what they want code to
do. Implementing the specs is pretty straightforward, but programmers know
that what people ask for is rarely what they really want. Add in
efficiency, reliability, security, maintainability, etc., and the task
becomes a lot more difficult.

> ?If you can describe what you want to do in natural language, GPT-3 will
> generate a list of the most relevant formulas for you to choose from,? said
> Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella in a keynote address at the company?s Build
> developer conference. ?The code writes itself.?
>
Microsoft products are generally crap. That aside, sure, an AI could take a
spec like "write a program to accept an integer, calculate the factorial of
the integer and print the result". But real-world tasks are orders of
magnitude more complicated.

I see plenty of room for AI assistance, though.

-Dave
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From msd001 at gmail.com  Thu Jun  3 16:14:32 2021
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2021 12:14:32 -0400
Subject: [ExI] AI Could Soon Write Code Based on Ordinary Language
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2fCoKWGMrrj-t9N8icEpeWYJ-S8B9=hyFbhX2HcJxHnGw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy1tYBRQSZL6b-7Qrvj7FxU2OhibSCfYdiZ_rwEeAc9CUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fCoKWGMrrj-t9N8icEpeWYJ-S8B9=hyFbhX2HcJxHnGw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdb+UYAyAm0o-QW-HRk5uqW=pytypF=wS8+cXgR6XQArt_g@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 3, 2021, 9:08 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>  That aside, sure, an AI could take a spec like "write a program to accept
> an integer, calculate the factorial of the integer and print the result".
> But real-world tasks are orders of magnitude more complicated.
>
> I see plenty of room for AI assistance, though.
>

"make me a sammich"

It's a known problem with a known solution that's pretty easy to deliver,
assuming the customer has no particular boundary conditions and is happy
enough with stock sandwiches.  There might be parameters for bread, meat,
cheese, condiments, etc.  There might be contexts for food allergies or
arbitrary preferences (no tomatoes= exclusion specific even when default is
unspecified)

I'd hope the joke "ok, you're a sammich" doesn't become horror when
machines are actually capable of such grossly misinterpreted directions.  :)

The idea of using "AI" to select answers  from already-solved questions is
why no small business should be doing their own accounting... there are
standard applications and/or standard outsourcing that has economy of scale
you won't outperform without treading into gray zone illegality.

But yeah, the suggestion that people can even ask for what they want using
natural language is pretty funny.  Ex: google "tree swing project"

>
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From john at ziaspace.com  Thu Jun  3 22:28:34 2021
From: john at ziaspace.com (john at ziaspace.com)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2021 22:28:34 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ExI] META: server maintenance done
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.64.2106032227370.8717@sparky.zia.io>

Hello, all,

If you're reading this, the server maintenance is done :)

Thanks,
John

From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Jun  3 22:33:31 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2021 15:33:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] META: server maintenance done
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.2106032227370.8717@sparky.zia.io>
References: <Pine.NEB.4.64.2106032227370.8717@sparky.zia.io>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRsLg4=kz+Pnx-TZYc3+xOSDxJfK8EOSTLRczVVYnGq8g@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 3, 2021 at 3:30 PM John Klos via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> If you're reading this, the server maintenance is done :)
>

This is true even if we're not reading that message, yes?  Object
permanence is still in play?  ;)
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From john at ziaspace.com  Thu Jun  3 23:05:56 2021
From: john at ziaspace.com (john at ziaspace.com)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2021 23:05:56 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ExI] META: server maintenance done
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRsLg4=kz+Pnx-TZYc3+xOSDxJfK8EOSTLRczVVYnGq8g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.NEB.4.64.2106032227370.8717@sparky.zia.io>
 <CALAdGNRsLg4=kz+Pnx-TZYc3+xOSDxJfK8EOSTLRczVVYnGq8g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.64.2106032301320.9258@sparky.zia.io>

>> If you're reading this, the server maintenance is done :)
>
> This is true even if we're not reading that message, yes?  Object
> permanence is still in play?  ;)

Well, yes, there was the possibility that I sent it and you hadn't read it 
yet, but there was also the very real possibility that I sent it, it 
didn't get delivered, and I'd have to go and do some more maintenance ;)

Glad it's working.

John

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Jun  4 17:24:18 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2021 12:24:18 -0500
Subject: [ExI] bunch of dummies?
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYJbVu_dQKjD5iM7n8e_LC9ai+ds2JDYvQAJhKEzkujiQ@mail.gmail.com>

https://neurosciencenews.com/conservative-belief-misinformation-18560/

bill w
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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Sun Jun  6 15:42:38 2021
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2021 11:42:38 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Preference for video over text?
Message-ID: <3C3BA426-8C03-427C-978D-D2D2C2D90596@gmail.com>

Why do so many people have a preference for video over text? Is it slow reading speed, laziness? 

I can read much faster than a video can present, I can scan the text, I can easily copy-paste quotes from text. I don?t have to fight with accents and poor pronunciation. 

Is it due to my ?learning style? that I have a preference for text? And/or why does it seem like everyone prefers video to text? 

SR Ballard

From lostmyelectron at protonmail.com  Sun Jun  6 15:58:44 2021
From: lostmyelectron at protonmail.com (Gabe Waggoner)
Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2021 15:58:44 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Preference for video over text?
In-Reply-To: <3C3BA426-8C03-427C-978D-D2D2C2D90596@gmail.com>
References: <3C3BA426-8C03-427C-978D-D2D2C2D90596@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cbU8AYPPR2k3slaGgHdkaPClaoYbEA5VqoVf5-Jw3MvGUIpjOdFjVCax7rIooux0n2jHf7J2rcfJlT6jWYn_k-QlHqz4400DwnjYZ9nMtvc=@protonmail.com>

??????? Original Message ???????
On Sunday, June 6th, 2021 at 3:42 PM, SR Ballard via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> Why do so many people have a preference for video over text? Is it slow reading speed, laziness?
> I can read much faster than a video can present, I can scan the text, I can easily copy-paste quotes from text. I don?t have to fight with accents and poor pronunciation.
> Is it due to my ?learning style? that I have a preference for text? And/or why does it seem like everyone prefers video to text?
> SR Ballard

I wonder the same thing, and I'm glad you asked. As a science writer-editor, I always prefer being able to work with text over video. I can process information on my own terms and at my own speed instead of having everything thrown at me in some packaged format that may or may not be attuned to how I learn. I retain more when I'm working with text. Text seems to me more structured, with headings and typography and design elements used to convey information efficiently and (one hopes) concisely. Video has many distractions that I have to avoid, obstacles between me and the information. I consider myself a visual learner, but only in the sense that I process text visually; video to me is more auditory despite its visual component.

Gabe


From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Jun  6 16:44:27 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2021 09:44:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Preference for video over text?
In-Reply-To: <3C3BA426-8C03-427C-978D-D2D2C2D90596@gmail.com>
References: <3C3BA426-8C03-427C-978D-D2D2C2D90596@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRdxLk2AwBQSWLZ9aAV=z9Q+3tuMrrEEfofvPdwCF+-gg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jun 6, 2021 at 8:44 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Why do so many people have a preference for video over text? Is it slow
> reading speed, laziness?


It can be considered a form of laziness.  It's not so much a slower reading
speed, as less ability to glean information from text in the first place -
they don't "read", or (to be specific) gain information from text, in quite
the way that you (and I) do.

Is it due to my ?learning style? that I have a preference for text?


That is an accurate enough way of putting it.


> And/or why does it seem like everyone prefers video to text?
>

Because it's so common, that your intuition may confuse "the large number
of people that you experience a difference with" (your intuition is not
noticing those who, like you, prefer text since there is no problem there)
with "literally everyone".
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Jun  6 16:48:26 2021
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2021 17:48:26 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Preference for video over text?
In-Reply-To: <3C3BA426-8C03-427C-978D-D2D2C2D90596@gmail.com>
References: <3C3BA426-8C03-427C-978D-D2D2C2D90596@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjJ8kqB5bEKQc31WyK2wp62RWQf4zt971kt5jOtDGn9iw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 at 16:45, SR Ballard via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Why do so many people have a preference for video over text? Is it slow reading speed, laziness?
>
> I can read much faster than a video can present, I can scan the text, I can easily copy-paste quotes from text. I don?t have to fight with accents and poor pronunciation.
>
> Is it due to my ?learning style? that I have a preference for text? And/or why does it seem like everyone prefers video to text?
>
> SR Ballard
> _______________________________________________


Companies prefer video because of marketing and adverts. Getting the
brand images in front of eyeballs.
With funny cats and people falling over - attention grabbing, so
people remember the brand.
They can also stream dubious information which flashes past before you
have time to consider whether it is actually correct or not. But it
still affects your later opinions.

In a 'push' system the public gets what the companies want to deliver.
It takes much more effort for people to seek out their own sources of
information.

BillK


BillK


From giulio at gmail.com  Sun Jun  6 16:54:49 2021
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2021 18:54:49 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Preference for video over text?
In-Reply-To: <3C3BA426-8C03-427C-978D-D2D2C2D90596@gmail.com>
References: <3C3BA426-8C03-427C-978D-D2D2C2D90596@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyf+VM6cTz6ibCXXCG97jAWX60QhEA7-onTZJjMXoEXJ0A@mail.gmail.com>

I love text and very much prefer reading to watching videos.

On 2021. Jun 6., Sun at 17:44, SR Ballard via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Why do so many people have a preference for video over text? Is it slow
> reading speed, laziness?
>
> I can read much faster than a video can present, I can scan the text, I
> can easily copy-paste quotes from text. I don?t have to fight with accents
> and poor pronunciation.
>
> Is it due to my ?learning style? that I have a preference for text? And/or
> why does it seem like everyone prefers video to text?
>
> SR Ballard
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From costajetro at gmail.com  Sun Jun  6 18:26:35 2021
From: costajetro at gmail.com (Kick Ass Cripto)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2021 15:26:35 -0300
Subject: [ExI] Preference for video over text?
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyf+VM6cTz6ibCXXCG97jAWX60QhEA7-onTZJjMXoEXJ0A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3C3BA426-8C03-427C-978D-D2D2C2D90596@gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyf+VM6cTz6ibCXXCG97jAWX60QhEA7-onTZJjMXoEXJ0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA=oLyJ6MtN+zMbhJsoENjfZNRJQ4PLLNUiQzb-eM=Sejh_Phg@mail.gmail.com>

Text is a lot better to explain things.

Em dom., 6 de jun. de 2021 14:03, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> escreveu:

> I love text and very much prefer reading to watching videos.
>
> On 2021. Jun 6., Sun at 17:44, SR Ballard via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Why do so many people have a preference for video over text? Is it slow
>> reading speed, laziness?
>>
>> I can read much faster than a video can present, I can scan the text, I
>> can easily copy-paste quotes from text. I don?t have to fight with accents
>> and poor pronunciation.
>>
>> Is it due to my ?learning style? that I have a preference for text?
>> And/or why does it seem like everyone prefers video to text?
>>
>> SR Ballard
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From sm at vreedom.com  Sun Jun  6 18:23:29 2021
From: sm at vreedom.com (Stephan Magnus)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2021 19:23:29 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Preference for video over text?
In-Reply-To: <3C3BA426-8C03-427C-978D-D2D2C2D90596@gmail.com>
References: <3C3BA426-8C03-427C-978D-D2D2C2D90596@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <014a01d75b01$0d831bb0$28895310$@vreedom.com>

I also prefer text. Because it?s faster.

And I am a video producer ??

 

VReedom

Stephan Magnus, Lda

S?tio do Pincho

Posto de Correios de Bensafrim

8600-090 Bensafrim ? Lagos/ Portugal

 

Mobil (P) 00351 ? 939417577

Tel. (D) 0049 - (0)6201-6505 610

 

 

sm at vreedom.com

http://www.VReedom.com

VAT Id. PT513773681

 

-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> Im Auftrag von SR Ballard via extropy-chat
Gesendet: Sonntag, 6. Juni 2021 16:43
An: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com>
Betreff: [ExI] Preference for video over text?

 

Why do so many people have a preference for video over text? Is it slow reading speed, laziness? 

 

I can read much faster than a video can present, I can scan the text, I can easily copy-paste quotes from text. I don?t have to fight with accents and poor pronunciation. 

 

Is it due to my ?learning style? that I have a preference for text? And/or why does it seem like everyone prefers video to text? 

 

SR Ballard

_______________________________________________

extropy-chat mailing list

 <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org

 <http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From guessmyneeds at yahoo.com  Sun Jun  6 18:48:44 2021
From: guessmyneeds at yahoo.com (Sherry Knepper)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2021 18:48:44 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ExI] Preference for video over text?
In-Reply-To: <CAA=oLyJ6MtN+zMbhJsoENjfZNRJQ4PLLNUiQzb-eM=Sejh_Phg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3C3BA426-8C03-427C-978D-D2D2C2D90596@gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyf+VM6cTz6ibCXXCG97jAWX60QhEA7-onTZJjMXoEXJ0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA=oLyJ6MtN+zMbhJsoENjfZNRJQ4PLLNUiQzb-eM=Sejh_Phg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <289701260.2850242.1623005324424@mail.yahoo.com>

You made very good points.? There is much more control over text learning than video.? The advantage of video is the visuals you dont have with text and also if audio is sufficient, it helps with computer eyestrain.

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Sun, Jun 6, 2021 at 2:38 PM, Kick Ass Cripto via extropy-chat<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:   _______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
  
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From ben at zaiboc.net  Sun Jun  6 22:02:45 2021
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2021 23:02:45 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Preference for video over text?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1622998155.14874.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.1.1622998155.14874.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <bac8c278-7fff-379e-e428-d3672c41f08d@zaiboc.net>

On 06/06/2021 17:49, SR Ballard wrote:
> Why do so many people have a preference for video over text? Is it slow reading speed, laziness?
>
> I can read much faster than a video can present, I can scan the text, I can easily copy-paste quotes from text. I don?t have to fight with accents and poor pronunciation.
>
> Is it due to my ?learning style? that I have a preference for text? And/or why does it seem like everyone prefers video to text?
>
> SR Ballard

It baffles me too.

Videos are glacially slow in comparison to reading text. And text 
doesn't come with annoying background music.
Although, if someone can't write very well, sometimes it's easier to 
undersand if you can see what they're doing, so there's a place for both.

-- 
Ben Zaiboc


From danust2012 at gmail.com  Sun Jun  6 22:50:15 2021
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2021 22:50:15 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Preference for video over text?
In-Reply-To: <bac8c278-7fff-379e-e428-d3672c41f08d@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.1.1622998155.14874.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <bac8c278-7fff-379e-e428-d3672c41f08d@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CACB7g26pxRCx8EfyHM63ZPtda5A_YdE+0pgUiEmv3FQLDPv8uA@mail.gmail.com>

I generally prefer text over video for reasons of being able to read
fast, go back more easily, move around the text nonlinearly, and
because I'm often not in a place where I can listen to the audio...
plus there are bandwidth issues if I'm away from WiFi, on the road or
on the trail. And, yeah, I don't like the ads and distractions. For
instance, many podcasts have a lot of internal advertising and I'm not
sure where the stuff I want to hear starts. (Plus, many of these
things are far too sloppy. Writing tends to be better overall.)

Regards,

Dan

From giulio at gmail.com  Mon Jun  7 08:24:02 2021
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2021 10:24:02 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Steven Wolfe will speak at Terasem Space Day, July 20
Message-ID: <CAKTCJycQY-dXBEdCL=KVJaeUsgfcHtf4N_tWZfKaOXLRygpiBg@mail.gmail.com>

Steven Wolfe will speak at Terasem Space Day, July 20

Steven Wolfe, the author of ?The Obligation?, will speak at the
Terasem Space Day Colloquium on July 20...

https://turingchurch.net/steven-wolfe-will-speak-at-terasem-space-day-july-20-11b0d2b3a3a5


From hibbard at wisc.edu  Mon Jun  7 13:21:40 2021
From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2021 13:21:40 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ExI] The Science Suggests a Wuhan Lab Leak
Message-ID: <66bc6a83-737b-d42d-b644-bf9da4c88a33@wisc.edu>

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-science-suggests-a-wuhan-lab-leak-11622995184

A genome is a blueprint for the factory of a cell to make proteins. The 
language is made up of three-letter ?words,? 64 in total, that represent 
the 20 different amino acids. For example, there are six different words 
for the amino acid arginine, the one that is often used in supercharging 
viruses. Every cell has a different preference for which word it likes to 
use most.

In the case of the gain-of-function supercharge, other sequences could 
have been spliced into this same site. Instead of a CGG-CGG (known as 
?double CGG?) that tells the protein factory to make two arginine amino 
acids in a row, you?ll obtain equal lethality by splicing any one of 35 of 
the other two-word combinations for double arginine. If the insertion 
takes place naturally, say through recombination, then one of those 35 
other sequences is far more likely to appear; CGG is rarely used in the 
class of coronaviruses that can recombine with CoV-2.

In fact, in the entire class of coronaviruses that includes CoV-2, the 
CGG-CGG combination has never been found naturally. That means the common 
method of viruses picking up new skills, called recombination, cannot 
operate here. A virus simply cannot pick up a sequence from another virus 
if that sequence isn?t present in any other virus.

Although the double CGG is suppressed naturally, the opposite is true in 
laboratory work. The insertion sequence of choice is the double CGG. 
That?s because it is readily available and convenient, and scientists have 
a great deal of experience inserting it. An additional advantage of the 
double CGG sequence compared with the other 35 possible choices: It 
creates a useful beacon that permits the scientists to track the insertion 
in the laboratory.

Now the damning fact. It was this exact sequence that appears in CoV-2. 
Proponents of zoonotic origin must explain why the novel coronavirus, when 
it mutated or recombined, happened to pick its least favorite combination, 
the double CGG. Why did it replicate the choice the lab?s gain-of-function 
researchers would have made?

From sparge at gmail.com  Mon Jun  7 13:54:15 2021
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2021 09:54:15 -0400
Subject: [ExI] How to Predict the Future
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2dx=4EN7PPWXgSkm0c=E1aLQ-_v2F-EgMYPUkJUcZ0T+A@mail.gmail.com>

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/57ed984e9de4bbb0f817ec59/1620574789150-1STW61C1DHRFNVZKDMVC/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kOyctPanBqSdf7WQMpY1FsRZw-zPPgdn4jUwVcJE1ZvWQUxwkmyExglNqGp0IvTJZUJFbgE-7XRK3dMEBRBhUpzdDaU_bF7Ds5W9lU7yP8WpaBCM76uVnxdYD9Ka9eZj3NBMAuNC_ujA-eHPkEsGI2A/basic210519.gif?format=1000w

http://www.basicinstructions.net/basic-instructions/2021/5/18/how-to-predict-the-future
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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Jun  7 19:42:28 2021
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2021 20:42:28 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Spherical UFO plunges into the ocean in US Navy footage
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armj+3ny=ErUwYp4OFwefZmdNnkyKMrDZUiuErOB4T4seog@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20210527202842.Horde.yEgors1vIK6AZQXUTV6VbG-@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAL_armj+3ny=ErUwYp4OFwefZmdNnkyKMrDZUiuErOB4T4seog@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armiFnQd9XuKL7tvuUdvZL4J26x+_zT59Tprs4hMC+p-LMQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 28 May 2021 at 10:03, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> For a contrary opinion ------
>
> UFOs Are Back ? And They Are Still Nothing
> Published by Steven Novella    May 24 2021
>
<snip>
> ------------------

And for another contrary opinion, Anders Sandberg has written an article......
<https://theconversation.com/ufos-how-to-calculate-the-odds-that-an-alien-spaceship-has-been-spotted-162269>

Quote:
UFOs: how to calculate the odds that an alien spaceship has been spotted
June 7, 2021   Anders Sandberg

The evidence so far isn?t very specific.
People are constantly seeing things in the sky they don?t understand.
The vast majority are aeroplanes, satellites, weather balloons,
clouds, rocket launches, auroras, optical reflections and so on. But
for some sightings, there?s no known explanation. The problem is that
people jump to the conclusion ?unknown = aliens?. And when you think
about it, this is fairly odd. Why not angels?

Anyway, I like to do maths instead.
--------------------

BillK


From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Mon Jun  7 19:56:20 2021
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2021 15:56:20 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Preference for video over text?
In-Reply-To: <CACB7g26pxRCx8EfyHM63ZPtda5A_YdE+0pgUiEmv3FQLDPv8uA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACB7g26pxRCx8EfyHM63ZPtda5A_YdE+0pgUiEmv3FQLDPv8uA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <708A16A6-69F9-497F-99B8-D9762BC54D93@gmail.com>

So, it seems as a mailing list we prefer text then?

SR Ballard

From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Mon Jun  7 20:12:03 2021
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2021 16:12:03 -0400
Subject: [ExI] 24,000 y/o bdelloid rotifer revived from permafrost
Message-ID: <01E68A49-71CA-4874-81CE-3CC367F3F471@gmail.com>

?A living bdelloid rotifer from 24,000-year-old Arctic permafrost?

https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(21)00624-2?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0960982221006242%3Fshowall%3Dtrue

?Here, we report the survival of an obligate parthenogenetic bdelloid rotifer, recovered from northeastern Siberian permafrost radiocarbon-dated to ?24,000 years BP. This constitutes the longest reported case of rotifer survival in a frozen state. We confirmed the finding by identifying rotifer actin gene sequences in a metagenome obtained from the same sample.?

SR Ballard
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From guessmyneeds at yahoo.com  Mon Jun  7 21:58:17 2021
From: guessmyneeds at yahoo.com (Sherry Knepper)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2021 21:58:17 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ExI] Preference for video over text?
In-Reply-To: <708A16A6-69F9-497F-99B8-D9762BC54D93@gmail.com>
References: <CACB7g26pxRCx8EfyHM63ZPtda5A_YdE+0pgUiEmv3FQLDPv8uA@mail.gmail.com>
 <708A16A6-69F9-497F-99B8-D9762BC54D93@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1392935650.3190873.1623103097849@mail.yahoo.com>

If its yes, I am not included in the "we".

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Mon, Jun 7, 2021 at 4:03 PM, SR Ballard via extropy-chat<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:   So, it seems as a mailing list we prefer text then?

SR Ballard
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
  
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Jun  8 17:12:46 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2021 10:12:46 -0700
Subject: [ExI] that didn't age well
Message-ID: <009001d75c89$80eed650$82cc82f0$@rainier66.com>




Owwwww, dang, that hurts.  What happens when a conspiracy theory turns into a theory?

https://twitter.com/alexandrosM/status/1401813071635501056/photo/1

It's real.  Here's a screenshot of the article:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30418-9/fulltext

Well now.  I ain't a doctah, but that whole notion always sounded plausible to me.  I posted the notion on this forum over a year ago.  The bat-sandwich idea sounded more plausible to me than an intentional leak, and I still think it is, but either way, we haven't yet discovered a likely RNA match in nature, and it has been 16 months since this article came out.

So what happens now?  Whaddya bet the Lancet never issues a retraction or apology?  Or even an acknowledgement they ever published this?  And what about the yanks?  Did JAMA or did Scientific American, or Nature, or Discover or any of the other popular science press go along with calling covid lab-leak notions just silly conspiracy theories?

spike



From ExiMod at protonmail.com  Tue Jun  8 19:57:16 2021
From: ExiMod at protonmail.com (ExiMod)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2021 19:57:16 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Protonmail has had a makeover
Message-ID: <_PX2eqneJMnxK6ixfuDVjThpAAJyLzgC41Qh2b0HepofH3wn52bGcKzyk4rrCsiFuR0WamWCyP90mRVRlCQu-H4iRO8MGYXRIqbcx_85_aI=@protonmail.com>

Hi Everybody

Just a quick note to mention that the new Protonmail design seems to be an improvement.
If you would like an encrypted email system that values privacy and avoids surveillance, then you can give their free email system a try. They make a living from additional paid-for services, not from adverts and collecting users data.
Read more here:
https://gizmodo.com/protonmail-unveils-an-overdue-makeover-and-new-features-1847054759
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ProtonMail
https://protonmail.com/

ExiMod

Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com/) Secure Email.
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From lostmyelectron at protonmail.com  Tue Jun  8 20:27:12 2021
From: lostmyelectron at protonmail.com (Gabe Waggoner)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2021 20:27:12 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Protonmail has had a makeover
In-Reply-To: <_PX2eqneJMnxK6ixfuDVjThpAAJyLzgC41Qh2b0HepofH3wn52bGcKzyk4rrCsiFuR0WamWCyP90mRVRlCQu-H4iRO8MGYXRIqbcx_85_aI=@protonmail.com>
References: <_PX2eqneJMnxK6ixfuDVjThpAAJyLzgC41Qh2b0HepofH3wn52bGcKzyk4rrCsiFuR0WamWCyP90mRVRlCQu-H4iRO8MGYXRIqbcx_85_aI=@protonmail.com>
Message-ID: <6sHJAvMApjIQcCmMFqMwQsuUaYdz6bKViCxhg7jS1PgtGbUZI0TeGkdkusFjOOcnyjpNhK_guwMnI8AAdRK5SPyb0CM0Ojyayoe3pxcKzFY=@protonmail.com>

> Just a quick note to mention that the new Protonmail design seems to be an improvement.

> If you would like an encrypted email system that values privacy and avoids surveillance, then you can give their free email system a try. They make a living from additional paid-for services, not from adverts and collecting users data.
> Read more here:
> https://gizmodo.com/protonmail-unveils-an-overdue-makeover-and-new-features-1847054759
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ProtonMail
> https://protonmail.com/
>
> ExiMod
>
> Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com/) Secure Email.

Has anyone else had problems logging in to the new site? Ever since this morning I've been getting a vanishingly brief error message saying "something went wrong" and then Tor redirects to the Onion login site. I've tried generating a new identity and a new circuit, as well as the standard restart Mac/restart Tor approach (both of which are as updated as they can be).

For months I've had issues trying to use the Onion site on Tor. I'd often get the "too many login attempts" error, which sometimes would resolve after a few tries and sometimes would not. But I could always access the beta site. The beta site is what has now become the new site, n'est-ce pas ? ProtonMail support suggests that I try deactivating Proton VPN Plus, but I'm reluctant because doing so defeats the purpose of having a VPN. (Getting meta, it reminds me of The Onion satire newspaper, which once had a headline along the lines of "ACLU defends right of terrorists to bomb ACLU headquarters." So I have to turn off Proton's VPN to keep using ProtonMail in a more secure fashion?)

I second ExiMod's statement about supporting ProtonMail through paid services. I used the free version for a month and then upgraded to Proton Plus for about a year and a half. Last month I went up to Professional, which I've enjoyed tremendously (notably the priority response from support).

Till later,
Gabe

Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com/) Secure Email.
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Jun  8 22:53:46 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2021 17:53:46 -0500
Subject: [ExI] mind's eye
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbzGyThEuQJB+Uzb=163QAe5spyZPy5vfziZO9n25Bx_A@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/08/science/minds-eye-mental-pictures-psychology.html
?

Many math and science people do not have a mind's eye as it says later in
the article.  Any of you have aphantasia or hyperphantasia?   bill w
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Jun 10 14:56:52 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2021 22:56:52 +0800
Subject: [ExI] What sf/fantasy series are on your "try to watch fairly
 soon/someday" list?
In-Reply-To: <i7reDLEiSJtvhiiJ1Qm4FaRvWqbh9SHIleFHdatja79ZidBDcM4laYmh4Mh3KAw_ZeElUy-HOOz1E2VRZ6aONPObTwjEhpIl1LaIxVgjnUw=@protonmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy2FZAWLNSFAjUyuuhWBLAX2-FkyONNYJ+KKz8FPepQK9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACB7g25pXM0jQe9_wJ5PiRnF62Nz+XTajAnfE0hDHTPmyULrNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <f147fb47-9c7e-514e-55ec-c18406d6396e@gmail.com>
 <i7reDLEiSJtvhiiJ1Qm4FaRvWqbh9SHIleFHdatja79ZidBDcM4laYmh4Mh3KAw_ZeElUy-HOOz1E2VRZ6aONPObTwjEhpIl1LaIxVgjnUw=@protonmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3S3qU9uwhAfsHj759EJenU+oDjAxhdcokcsQfsEp+s5Q@mail.gmail.com>

I was touched that my post got the response that it did. I have seen the
over the top Danish series, Kingdom, which was fun. I did faithfully watch
"Fringe" and consider it a classic. Electric Dreams was an intriguing
anthology show, and I saw the episodes which sounded appealing, I read
about the plots in Wikipedia, as I often do to get a feel for a tv series.
I only saw a handful of Alias episodes, but remember how it was such a
hugely popular series at the time. I mainly just recall Jennifer Garner
beating people up all the time! Lol As for Star Trek, I had friends tell me
that the Enterprise series actually gets very good in the final two
seasons. I've heard they even re-introduced the Gorns!

I was a fan of the Buck Rogers tv series, and got to meet Gil Gerard at a
science fiction convention. The man is highly intelligent and has a PhD in
petroleum engineering! But finally he could stand it no more, and he left
that kind of work to follow his dream and pursue acting. After a few years
driving a taxi, he broke into tv commercials and built up an acting career
from that starting point. Yes, I would love to have a robot sidekick like
Twiki! Lol

*"Spartakus and the Sun Beneath the Sea*" is a series I had never heard of
before, and I pride myself on my pop culture tv and film awareness! Lol I
very much admire the French talent for mature animated science
fiction/fantasy films. I will have to look it up.

Since I now live in the Philippines... I present Darna!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERXvQJrQ5dE


John  :  )




On Wed, Jun 2, 2021 at 10:24 PM Gabe Waggoner via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> ??????? Original Message ???????
> <snip>
>
> Counterpart. (One of my favorite sci-fi shows ever. Canceled after two
>
> seasons.)
>
> FlashForward. (Based loosely on the book.)
>
> Brian
>
> Great to see such robust discussion of sci-fi!
>
> I, too, enjoyed *Counterpart* and *FlashForward* (I want to read the
> book). I loved *Dark* (dubbed from German but so effectively that it?s
> easy to forget, and it has a great soundtrack), *Continuum*, and
> *Travelers*. *Dark Matter* I enjoyed both conceptually and because it had
> several cast members from my beloved *Stargate* and *Stargate: Atlantis*.
> *Colony* was pretty good. I?m not a big history fan and thus didn?t
> expect to enjoy *Outlander* as a series, but I?ve ended up really liking
> it. *The Orville* is a great love letter to *Star Trek*.
>
> I grew up on *Star Trek*. I cherish the original, TNG, DS9, and VOY; I
> watched *Enterprise* but found it derivative in its constant attempts to
> retroactively explain, e.g., the Borg, the smooth-headed Klingons, the Khan
> supermen. I watched *Picard* but didn?t care for it (yeah, I know I?m in
> the minority there). I haven?t seen any of *Discovery* other than the
> first half of the pilot that aired on network before CBS All Access became
> the only portal?but I didn?t like it so much. Haven?t seen any of the newer
> shows in the franchise.
>
> *Fringe* is easily one of the best series I?ve ever seen (sort of like *The
> X-Files* meets *The Twilight Zone *and any basic crime procedural).
>
> Also loved *Alias.* The Rambaldi mythology resonated with me and helped
> foster my interest in life extension. Basically, Milo Rambaldi was
> Nostradamus + da Vinci and had genius-level knowledge, developing advanced
> technology and revolutionary medicines centuries ahead of his time, as well
> as prophesying about modern times and the show's protagonist, an
> intelligence community double agent played by Jennifer Garner. The first
> two seasons are the best, and some gems are in the rest. Worth watching for
> me also because of the stellar Lena Olin and Victor Garber.
>
> *Battlestar Galactica* (the remake) was good, too.
>
> Apple's *For All Mankind* is excellent?I just finished the second season
> and enjoyed the show much more than I thought I would from reading the
> premise.
>
> *Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles *was fun. I like how that
> franchise can keep reenvisioning its premise.
>
> I also admit to periodically watching *Buck Rogers* (just to hear Twiki's
> one-liners) and *Space 1999* (if only for the dramatic quarter-turn that
> Barbara Bain does in the opening credits).
>
> As a kid, I really liked the animated French show *Spartakus and the Sun
> Beneath the Sea*. In brief: After a great cataclysm, a city of advanced
> humans plummets to deep in Earth?s strata. They have advanced technology
> but later forget their origins, believing the surface to have been
> destroyed. They evolve physically but forget how some of their technology
> works. Their artificial sun begins to fail, and they create a human
> representative to travel through the strata (apparently entire worlds can
> exist in them) looking for help to fix their sun.
>
> I'm sure I'm forgetting some.
>
> Gabe
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Jun 10 21:52:06 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2021 16:52:06 -0500
Subject: [ExI] another wrench
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY9kEzna_Tv30gdbc7C_RokL6Pasmkr4cp6v5_gie_Jyw@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/06/the-brain-isnt-supposed-to-change-this-much/619145/

Another wrench in the works concerning how the brain works.  And the
copying of a brain got much harder.  I think it must be metacognition:
something 'above' those neurons are controlling where the learning and
memory takes place and is stored.
A re-arranging, possibly done during sleep.  bill w
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From giulio at gmail.com  Thu Jun 10 09:41:20 2021
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2021 11:41:20 +0200
Subject: [ExI] My new book "Futurist spaceflight meditations" is published
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyexk0peS9zJcDB-e8PuGQqLqyohQ1mnV=SA7aS1zwRNPg@mail.gmail.com>

My new book "Futurist spaceflight meditations" is published

My new book "Futurist spaceflight meditations" is available for
readers to buy on Amazon (Kindle | paperback).

https://turingchurch.net/futurist-spaceflight-meditations-5e3b31f645d1

This book goes from here and now to the far future and the stars. But
it is a very short book of about 27,000 words, about 100 pages in
print.

Chapter titles: 1 Introduction; 2 Political preamble; 3 Lockdown; 4
Spaceflight now; 5 Spaceship Earth; 6 Cultural reflections; 7
Interplanetary; 8 Interstellar; 9 Cosmic engineers.

Thesis: We must strenuously push toward our cosmic destiny among the
stars. Beginning to expand beyond the Earth before it?s too late is
our most important task at this moment in history. Many actors have
important roles to play, and there?s room for everyone. Spaceflight
will also help find viable solutions for current developmental,
environmental, and social problems.

But the road to the stars is full of impediments and roadblocks. We
will not advance as fast as we wish. Therefore we must keep our mood
strenuous and our drive strong. We need an optimistic spaceflight
culture oriented to the future, with energizing visions of
interplanetary, interstellar, and cosmic futures. We also need a
futurist space philosophy.

I'll present the book at the Space Renaissance 2021 Congress on June
29 and the 2021 Terasem Space Day on July 20.


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 11 03:21:33 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2021 11:21:33 +0800
Subject: [ExI] My new book "Futurist spaceflight meditations" is
 published
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyexk0peS9zJcDB-e8PuGQqLqyohQ1mnV=SA7aS1zwRNPg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyexk0peS9zJcDB-e8PuGQqLqyohQ1mnV=SA7aS1zwRNPg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1pBVPexOQ67JjD=mXua==2koxTXFSioEaN7OjYfQ8P4w@mail.gmail.com>

Giulio, congratulations! I look forward to reading it!

John  :  )

On Fri, Jun 11, 2021 at 9:53 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> My new book "Futurist spaceflight meditations" is published
>
> My new book "Futurist spaceflight meditations" is available for
> readers to buy on Amazon (Kindle | paperback).
>
> https://turingchurch.net/futurist-spaceflight-meditations-5e3b31f645d1
>
> This book goes from here and now to the far future and the stars. But
> it is a very short book of about 27,000 words, about 100 pages in
> print.
>
> Chapter titles: 1 Introduction; 2 Political preamble; 3 Lockdown; 4
> Spaceflight now; 5 Spaceship Earth; 6 Cultural reflections; 7
> Interplanetary; 8 Interstellar; 9 Cosmic engineers.
>
> Thesis: We must strenuously push toward our cosmic destiny among the
> stars. Beginning to expand beyond the Earth before it?s too late is
> our most important task at this moment in history. Many actors have
> important roles to play, and there?s room for everyone. Spaceflight
> will also help find viable solutions for current developmental,
> environmental, and social problems.
>
> But the road to the stars is full of impediments and roadblocks. We
> will not advance as fast as we wish. Therefore we must keep our mood
> strenuous and our drive strong. We need an optimistic spaceflight
> culture oriented to the future, with energizing visions of
> interplanetary, interstellar, and cosmic futures. We also need a
> futurist space philosophy.
>
> I'll present the book at the Space Renaissance 2021 Congress on June
> 29 and the 2021 Terasem Space Day on July 20.
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From avant at sollegro.com  Thu Jun 10 08:04:21 2021
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2021 01:04:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Great Culling
Message-ID: <20210610010421.Horde.Sr36VCpHP1c68qrHBl9xQby@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>


A year or two ago, Keith Henson turned me onto this mystery. Between  
9000 and and 7000 years ago, women enjoyed a 17:1 reproductive success  
rate over men across the planet within the same 2-3 thousand year  
span. This suggests that for every 1 man that successfully reproduced,  
16 failed and left no offspring. It coincided with a series of  
cultural and technological innovations including agriculture, animal  
domestication, and copper smelting. It is a big mystery why this  
happened and reasons proposed include a virus that affected only men.

The popular opinion is that somehow on every continent a small tribe  
of "winners" emerged and amassed large harems of women through war or  
some other persuasion politics. But if so, why no infidelity? How did  
they so efficiently prevent so many men from breeding other than by  
exterminating them?

For comparison, bull elephant seals that spend all their time fighting  
over females and then having sex with them, the "winners" only have  
reproductive ratio of 14:1.

Here are some links:

https://psmag.com/environment/17-to-1-reproductive-success
https://www.livescience.com/62754-warring-clans-caused-population-bottleneck.html

I am attaching the most compelling figure in the Genomics Research  
paper that first brought this mystery to light. Can you see that crazy  
sharp dip in the male breeding population like it was cut with a  
knife? Fortunately, the article is available for free without paywall  
here:

https://genome.cshlp.org/content/early/2015/03/13/gr.186684.114.abstract

With all the UFO/UAP chatter going on, I wonder if it is a bad time to  
point out that the pattern we see is similar to what you would see if  
a selective breeding experiment were carried out world-wide by a  
superior species. Where technology was used to kill or neuter the  
males with undesirable traits.

This is called culling in the selective breeding business. What I am  
trying to point out is although a lot of cultural and technological  
advancement was occurring at the time, was this innovation the cause  
or effect of the selection for a few successful males almost  
simultaneously across multiple continents.

A lot depends depends on whether the genetic, cultural, and  
technological innovation is the cause of the selective pressure or is  
the selective pressure actually the cause of world-wide cultural  
innovation? Rafal? Keith? Anyone?

Stuart LaForge

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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 11 14:15:33 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2021 22:15:33 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Spherical UFO plunges into the ocean in US Navy footage
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armiFnQd9XuKL7tvuUdvZL4J26x+_zT59Tprs4hMC+p-LMQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20210527202842.Horde.yEgors1vIK6AZQXUTV6VbG-@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAL_armj+3ny=ErUwYp4OFwefZmdNnkyKMrDZUiuErOB4T4seog@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armiFnQd9XuKL7tvuUdvZL4J26x+_zT59Tprs4hMC+p-LMQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy200QaqHQ18nJoq5Z7uJLRi4=xgA9DHx-5+F0-d5eHqow@mail.gmail.com>

Luis Elizondo, Former Director, Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification
Program
"There is a bipartisan push in Congress to find out once and for all: Are
we alone? It isn?t a philosophical query, but a demand to disclose any
information the U.S. government has been gathering on unidentified aerial
phenomenon (UAP), also popularly known as UFOs. Last December, as part of
the omnibus spending and coronavirus-relief package, Congress stipulated a
report conducted by multiple agencies must be handed over this month with
detailed analysis of UAP sightings by U.S. military members. Luis ?Lue?
Elizondo is the former director of the Advanced Aerospace Threat
Identification Program (AATIP), an unpublicized U.S. government program
created in 2007 committed to the investigation of UAPs. Elizondo joins
Jacqueline Alemany, author of the ?Power Up? newsletter and congressional
correspondent, on Tuesday, June 8 at 3:30pm ET."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcH5nuqa-0w

On Tue, Jun 8, 2021 at 3:45 AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Fri, 28 May 2021 at 10:03, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > For a contrary opinion ------
> >
> > UFOs Are Back ? And They Are Still Nothing
> > Published by Steven Novella    May 24 2021
> >
> <snip>
> > ------------------
>
> And for another contrary opinion, Anders Sandberg has written an
> article......
> <
> https://theconversation.com/ufos-how-to-calculate-the-odds-that-an-alien-spaceship-has-been-spotted-162269
> >
>
> Quote:
> UFOs: how to calculate the odds that an alien spaceship has been spotted
> June 7, 2021   Anders Sandberg
>
> The evidence so far isn?t very specific.
> People are constantly seeing things in the sky they don?t understand.
> The vast majority are aeroplanes, satellites, weather balloons,
> clouds, rocket launches, auroras, optical reflections and so on. But
> for some sightings, there?s no known explanation. The problem is that
> people jump to the conclusion ?unknown = aliens?. And when you think
> about it, this is fairly odd. Why not angels?
>
> Anyway, I like to do maths instead.
> --------------------
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 11 14:20:55 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2021 22:20:55 +0800
Subject: [ExI] NASA designs new spacesuits for next lunar mission in 2024
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1B=2v9X8ui4r0irkR80zbUhh31kco-pjaABK-eUmqDhw@mail.gmail.com>

"The astronauts on the Artemis missions
<https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/09/world/nasa-artemis-person-of-color-crew-scn/index.html>,
NASA's next program to send the first woman and the first person of color
<https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/09/entertainment/nichelle-nichols-nasa-star-trek/index.html>
to the moon, will wear the latest spacesuit, called the exploration
extravehicular mobility unit, also known as xEMU. Before the spacesuits
make it to the moon, parts of them will be tested
<https://www.nasa.gov/feature/a-next-generation-spacesuit-for-the-artemis-generation-of-astronauts>
on the International Space Station."
[image: NASA revealed a ground prototype of the new exploration
extravehicular mobility unit (xEMU) in 2019 at NASA Headquarters in
Washington.]

https://edition.cnn.com/style/article/spacesuit-design-artemis-program-scn/index.html
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From lostmyelectron at protonmail.com  Fri Jun 11 14:15:43 2021
From: lostmyelectron at protonmail.com (Gabe Waggoner)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2021 14:15:43 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Protonmail has had a makeover
In-Reply-To: <6sHJAvMApjIQcCmMFqMwQsuUaYdz6bKViCxhg7jS1PgtGbUZI0TeGkdkusFjOOcnyjpNhK_guwMnI8AAdRK5SPyb0CM0Ojyayoe3pxcKzFY=@protonmail.com>
References: <_PX2eqneJMnxK6ixfuDVjThpAAJyLzgC41Qh2b0HepofH3wn52bGcKzyk4rrCsiFuR0WamWCyP90mRVRlCQu-H4iRO8MGYXRIqbcx_85_aI=@protonmail.com>
 <6sHJAvMApjIQcCmMFqMwQsuUaYdz6bKViCxhg7jS1PgtGbUZI0TeGkdkusFjOOcnyjpNhK_guwMnI8AAdRK5SPyb0CM0Ojyayoe3pxcKzFY=@protonmail.com>
Message-ID: <IwshYBYl1lFcy6_XpDIDlyMWQ7QBa3goO25T_iSd9kEeoHSXbIf8TQCH1uit0C7iXvtqv_WP0FMUV_Aqx_NkfL2qtuQoR_Lp2GkBpE5GuBM=@protonmail.com>

??????? Original Message ???????

> Has anyone else had problems logging in to the new site? Ever since this morning I've been getting a vanishingly brief error message saying "something went wrong" and then Tor redirects to the Onion login site. I've tried generating a new identity and a new circuit, as well as the standard restart Mac/restart Tor approach (both of which are as updated as they can be).
>
> For months I've had issues trying to use the Onion site on Tor. I'd often get the "too many login attempts" error, which sometimes would resolve after a few tries and sometimes would not. But I could always access the beta site. The beta site is what has now become the new site, n'est-ce pas ? ProtonMail support suggests that I try deactivating Proton VPN Plus, but I'm reluctant because doing so defeats the purpose of having a VPN. (Getting meta, it reminds me of The Onion satire newspaper, which once had a headline along the lines of "ACLU defends right of terrorists to bomb ACLU headquarters." So I have to turn off Proton's VPN to keep using ProtonMail in a more secure fashion?)
>
> I second ExiMod's statement about supporting ProtonMail through paid services. I used the free version for a month and then upgraded to Proton Plus for about a year and a half. Last month I went up to Professional, which I've enjoyed tremendously (notably the priority response from support).

ProtonMail update: Success! I've been corresponding more with the support folks, who asked me to go into the Tor browser's Privacy and Security settings and then disable the option to prioritize .onion sites when known. Once I did that, everything worked great. If it hadn't, the next step would have been to change to a different ProtonVPN server and then if that didn't work to disconnect the VPN. But now we're firing on all thrusters?good times. The new interface is sleek. So I was having Tor browser?specific setting issues, something most people wouldn't experience.

Wishing everyone a great weekend,
Gabe

Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com/) Secure Email.
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 11 14:29:34 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2021 22:29:34 +0800
Subject: [ExI] How Risky Is It to Send Jeff Bezos to the Edge of Space?
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy0P7RfTNjrpgYV44UTbDJ6dCTJp8oWft0_-e4LHAuqP8g@mail.gmail.com>

"The rich-guy space race between Bezos and Branson (SpaceX?s Elon Musk is
the odd man out for now) may convince other well-heeled space tourists who
want assurances that a rocket ride is both fun and safe. But experts note
that space travel is always risky, even when spacecraft have undergone
years of testing. Blue Origin?s flight will be its first launch with human
passengers; previous flights have only carried a mannequin. For Virgin
Galactic, it will be only the second time the rocket plane has carried
people.

?When you're flying humans, it's always one step more complex than just
flying an uncrewed mission, and that?s because you have the lives of six
people that you have to worry about,? says Laura Forczyk
<https://www.astralytical.com/about>, an Atlanta-based space industry
consultant who has flown several times with NASA on zero-g research
flights. ?Blue Origin has no reason to fear that something will go wrong,
but you never know. Space is a risky business.?
https://www.wired.com/story/how-risky-is-it-to-send-jeff-bezos-to-the-edge-of-space/
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 11 14:31:38 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2021 22:31:38 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Games Are Reimagining the Road Trip for a Modern Era
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3ynBJ71CHBmBy=VzftfVfBiw1JNOQ83WG+Q4Nh6Lo-0A@mail.gmail.com>

*"Road 96* promises the thrill of the open road and the unexpected. Maybe
freedom. Maybe death. Plenty in between. The walking, driving, and
hitchhiking adventure from French studio DigixArt, coming later this year,
taps into the spirit of classic road movies, from *Easy Rider* to *Thelma
and Louise*, where encounters with the outside world are strange,
life-changing, and potentially fatal.

?The road trip structure was the perfect canvas for us to feel the random
nature of traveling on your own,? says Yoan Fanise, *Road 96?s* creative
director. ?When you travel as a backpacker you don?t know who you're going
to meet, what?s going to happen, good or bad. That?s the essence of a road
trip, and of life.?

This confrontation with the unknown is just one way that games are proving
to be ideal hosts for the road trip genre. What unites road movies and
novels, serious or comic, is how they bring the social background into
focus, shining a light on cultural tensions and marginalization, all while
their characters reconnect with each other, and themselves. A recent crop
of road games are doing all this in a way that feels especially pertinent
to our times.

*Road 96* isn?t just about adventure. Set in a dystopian land that blends
?90s Arizona with Soviet totalitarianism, you play a teenager fleeing to
the border, by any means available. Fanise explains that the political
aspects of the game have only become more relevant during development. ?We
started writing this story three years ago,? he says, ?mostly inspired by
1989 iron curtain history and the struggles of countries like Venezuela or
North Korea. But recently we were shocked by the similarity of real events
that happened in ?modern democracies? such as the USA.

https://www.wired.com/story/games-reimagining-road-trip/
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 11 14:38:01 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2021 22:38:01 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Inside of world's largest airship revealed in stunning images
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy33zssFCLJYtzrb7Ug3WnWNhP49B0__tXCEQcdP59q_RA@mail.gmail.com>

"New details about one of the world's largest aircraft, Airlander 10,
reveal a spacious cabin with floor-to-ceiling windows (and plenty of
legroom) inside the blimp-like exterior. And the futuristic aircraft will
be loads better for the environment.

British company Hybrid Air Vehicles recently released concept images of its
forthcoming airship, which is 299 feet (91 meters) long and 112 feet (34 m)
wide, with the capacity to hold about 100 people. But rather than being
crammed in like sardines, passengers will be treated to floor-to-ceiling
windows and the kind of space and legroom commercial airlines currently
reserve for business-class customers.

The firm thinks the vehicle, which is expected to enter service by 2025,
will soon challenge conventional jets on a number of popular short-haul
routes, thanks to its improved comfort and 90% lower emissions."

https://www.livescience.com/airlander-10-airship-interior-unveiled.html
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Jun 11 14:53:32 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2021 07:53:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Inside of world's largest airship revealed in stunning
 images
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy33zssFCLJYtzrb7Ug3WnWNhP49B0__tXCEQcdP59q_RA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy33zssFCLJYtzrb7Ug3WnWNhP49B0__tXCEQcdP59q_RA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001101d75ed1$8d9b4ce0$a8d1e6a0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of John Grigg via extropy-chat
Subject: [ExI] Inside of world's largest airship revealed in stunning images

 

?

>?The firm thinks the vehicle, which is expected to enter service by 2025, will soon challenge conventional jets on a number of popular short-haul routes, thanks to its improved comfort and 90% lower emissions."

https://www.livescience.com/airlander-10-airship-interior-unveiled.html

I can think of plenty of uses for such a ride.  Conventional jets are fast, but cruise ships still get plenty of business, and those things are slow.  So? find a way to make it appealing, such as a means of doing your homework comfortably on the way down to the Phoenix office from LA or SF for instance.  Covid has taught us to do a lot of our work at home.  So now if it takes a full day to get to Phoenix, but it isn?t that different from a normal office day, that might sell.

spike

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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Jun 11 15:01:38 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2021 08:01:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] colonial pipeline shutdown
Message-ID: <002801d75ed2$ae7b7ab0$0b727010$@rainier66.com>

 

I didn?t follow this story very closely but what I heard doesn?t make sense.

 

Some hackers somehow installed ransomware on the Colonial Pipeline system which caused a shutdown, resulting in fuel shortages on the east coast, but the company paid the ransom in bitcoins and got it back running again.  That part makes sense, but the next part doesn?t.

 

According to some sources, the FBI managed to get the money back somehow.

 

Are there bitcoin hipsters among us who can explain how the FBI could do that?  Is it not true that bitcoin is secure?  If the FBI can get money from criminals, it can get money from anyone who it says is a criminal, ja?  If so, the premise behind bitcoin has been demonstrated false or flawed, so its value should have taken a steep dive.  I see that it did right when the pipeline shut down, but not when the story broke that the FBI had recovered some of the money.

 

I don?t understand.

 

spike

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 11 15:20:53 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2021 10:20:53 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Inside of world's largest airship revealed in stunning
 images
In-Reply-To: <001101d75ed1$8d9b4ce0$a8d1e6a0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAGSKFy33zssFCLJYtzrb7Ug3WnWNhP49B0__tXCEQcdP59q_RA@mail.gmail.com>
 <001101d75ed1$8d9b4ce0$a8d1e6a0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEby+7uQjC=q1=259CCUFvUA2YG3OYA-OnuRXS4xfVCpzQ@mail.gmail.com>

Airships not for use in Oklahoma.  I was there once, driving a raised roof
van.  I saw warnings on the highway for high winds and soon experienced
them.  I had to fight the wind all the way through that state.  That van
had too much surface area.  The wind would have blown an airship into
ARkansas.   bill w

On Fri, Jun 11, 2021 at 9:55 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *John Grigg via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* [ExI] Inside of world's largest airship revealed in stunning
> images
>
>
>
> ?
>
> >?The firm thinks the vehicle, which is expected to enter service by 2025,
> will soon challenge conventional jets on a number of popular short-haul
> routes, thanks to its improved comfort and 90% lower emissions."
>
> https://www.livescience.com/airlander-10-airship-interior-unveiled.html
>
> I can think of plenty of uses for such a ride.  Conventional jets are
> fast, but cruise ships still get plenty of business, and those things are
> slow.  So? find a way to make it appealing, such as a means of doing your
> homework comfortably on the way down to the Phoenix office from LA or SF
> for instance.  Covid has taught us to do a lot of our work at home.  So now
> if it takes a full day to get to Phoenix, but it isn?t that different from
> a normal office day, that might sell.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From sparge at gmail.com  Fri Jun 11 15:21:43 2021
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2021 11:21:43 -0400
Subject: [ExI] colonial pipeline shutdown
In-Reply-To: <002801d75ed2$ae7b7ab0$0b727010$@rainier66.com>
References: <002801d75ed2$ae7b7ab0$0b727010$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2ccN+L+h4xfYttFj1JK7qywM3dJGxUaCN9-3GTV-9F4eA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 11, 2021 at 11:04 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> I didn?t follow this story very closely but what I heard doesn?t make
> sense.
>
>
>
> Some hackers somehow installed ransomware on the Colonial Pipeline system
> which caused a shutdown, resulting in fuel shortages on the east coast, but
> the company paid the ransom in bitcoins and got it back running again.
> That part makes sense, but the next part doesn?t.
>
>
>
> According to some sources, the FBI managed to get the money back somehow.
>

About half of it.

Are there bitcoin hipsters among us who can explain how the FBI could do
> that?  Is it not true that bitcoin is secure?  If the FBI can get money
> from criminals, it can get money from anyone who it says is a criminal,
> ja?  If so, the premise behind bitcoin has been demonstrated false or
> flawed, so its value should have taken a steep dive.  I see that it did
> right when the pipeline shut down, but not when the story broke that the
> FBI had recovered some of the money.
>
>
>
> I don?t understand.
>

From
https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-the-fbi-got-colonial-pipelines-ransom-money-back-11623403981
which is paywalled:









*After Colonial Pipeline Co. on May 8 paid roughly $4.4 million in
cryptocurrency to hackers holding its computer systems hostage, the Federal
Bureau of Investigation followed the digital money.Over the next 19 days,
court records show, a special agent watched on a publicly visible bitcoin
ledger as hackers transferred the 75 bitcoins to other digital addresses. A
May 27 transfer of nearly 64 bitcoins landed at a virtual address to which
the FBI gained access, providing an opportunity to get a warrant and
pounce.On Monday, the Justice Department said it had recovered some of the
cryptocurrency, equal to about $2.3 million of Colonial?s initial
ransom.The operation demonstrates investigators? growing technical ability
to disrupt the financial infrastructure that has enabled ransomware gangs
to squeeze hundreds of millions of dollars from victims each year,
cybersecurity experts say. Despite cryptocurrency?s reputation as a
hard-to-trace medium of exchange useful to criminals and other groups that
operate outside the traditional financial system, crypto experts say it is
at times easier to track than hard currencies such as U.S. dollars.?You
can?t hide behind cryptocurrency,? said Elvis Chan, assistant special agent
in charge of the cyber branch of the FBI?s San Francisco field office.*

The blockchain ledger is public. Everyone knows that. Making transactions
private doesn't happen automatically, but it can be done.

-Dave
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From kanzure at gmail.com  Fri Jun 11 15:23:05 2021
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2021 10:23:05 -0500
Subject: [ExI] colonial pipeline shutdown
In-Reply-To: <002801d75ed2$ae7b7ab0$0b727010$@rainier66.com>
References: <002801d75ed2$ae7b7ab0$0b727010$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CABaSBax+YMjvbsFJZ05ROjP-h-r6-gV8gP97iCLrEQC4ND5G2g@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 11, 2021 at 10:03 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I didn?t follow this story very closely but what I heard doesn?t make
> sense.
>

They are leaving out information, so the full story is presently
unknowable.


> According to some sources, the FBI managed to get the money back somehow. Are
> there bitcoin hipsters among us who can explain how the FBI could do that?
>

Difficult to say without them releasing more information. Imagine if the
malware had "phoned home" as it were, talking to a remote server under
control of the attackers, and the investigators were able to follow that
trail of evidence. It would be a matter of investigation to follow that
trail and discover that the bitcoin wallet protecting the private keys was
running on a web server connected to the internet, and then they got access
to that server. Criminals are not always sophisticated and they may not
have known that there were more secure ways to store and receive bitcoin.

As another example, consider the Twitter hack:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Twitter_account_hijacking
https://www.wired.com/story/how-alleged-twitter-hackers-got-caught-bitcoin/

Bearer assets are only as secure as how you store them. If you leave a
trail of breadcrumbs to your stash, you should expect attackers to find it
and take it.

- Bryan
https://twitter.com/kanzure
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From stathisp at gmail.com  Fri Jun 11 15:36:06 2021
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2021 01:36:06 +1000
Subject: [ExI] colonial pipeline shutdown
In-Reply-To: <002801d75ed2$ae7b7ab0$0b727010$@rainier66.com>
References: <002801d75ed2$ae7b7ab0$0b727010$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAH=2ypXWBqPoO2ztrzo-s-FPximSRv_sJqkmj--2pb0LS8MRbA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 12 Jun 2021 at 01:03, spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> I didn?t follow this story very closely but what I heard doesn?t make
> sense.
>
>
>
> Some hackers somehow installed ransomware on the Colonial Pipeline system
> which caused a shutdown, resulting in fuel shortages on the east coast, but
> the company paid the ransom in bitcoins and got it back running again.
> That part makes sense, but the next part doesn?t.
>
>
>
> According to some sources, the FBI managed to get the money back somehow.
>
>
>
> Are there bitcoin hipsters among us who can explain how the FBI could do
> that?  Is it not true that bitcoin is secure?  If the FBI can get money
> from criminals, it can get money from anyone who it says is a criminal,
> ja?  If so, the premise behind bitcoin has been demonstrated false or
> flawed, so its value should have taken a steep dive.  I see that it did
> right when the pipeline shut down, but not when the story broke that the
> FBI had recovered some of the money.
>
>
>
> I don?t understand.
>
The FBI has not explained what exactly it did, but hacks of exchanges? and
individuals? Bitcoins happen on a regular basis, by getting into their
system and gaining access to their keys. It is a computer security failing,
not a failing of the Bitcoin protocol.

> --
Stathis Papaioannou
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 11 15:44:34 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2021 10:44:34 -0500
Subject: [ExI] colonial pipeline shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypXWBqPoO2ztrzo-s-FPximSRv_sJqkmj--2pb0LS8MRbA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002801d75ed2$ae7b7ab0$0b727010$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypXWBqPoO2ztrzo-s-FPximSRv_sJqkmj--2pb0LS8MRbA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYjLnhYT_2-UoN8sNpcUHcBnyr3HV=1qLbt2e_r66tSqw@mail.gmail.com>

"If you can build it, I can hack it."   Is that true?  Are we ever, ever
going to have a secure web so that enemies can't shut down anything they
want to?   bill w

On Fri, Jun 11, 2021 at 10:40 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, 12 Jun 2021 at 01:03, spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I didn?t follow this story very closely but what I heard doesn?t make
>> sense.
>>
>>
>>
>> Some hackers somehow installed ransomware on the Colonial Pipeline system
>> which caused a shutdown, resulting in fuel shortages on the east coast, but
>> the company paid the ransom in bitcoins and got it back running again.
>> That part makes sense, but the next part doesn?t.
>>
>>
>>
>> According to some sources, the FBI managed to get the money back somehow.
>>
>>
>>
>> Are there bitcoin hipsters among us who can explain how the FBI could do
>> that?  Is it not true that bitcoin is secure?  If the FBI can get money
>> from criminals, it can get money from anyone who it says is a criminal,
>> ja?  If so, the premise behind bitcoin has been demonstrated false or
>> flawed, so its value should have taken a steep dive.  I see that it did
>> right when the pipeline shut down, but not when the story broke that the
>> FBI had recovered some of the money.
>>
>>
>>
>> I don?t understand.
>>
> The FBI has not explained what exactly it did, but hacks of exchanges? and
> individuals? Bitcoins happen on a regular basis, by getting into their
> system and gaining access to their keys. It is a computer security failing,
> not a failing of the Bitcoin protocol.
>
>> --
> Stathis Papaioannou
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From sm at vreedom.com  Fri Jun 11 15:24:36 2021
From: sm at vreedom.com (Stephan Magnus)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2021 16:24:36 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Inside of world's largest airship revealed in stunning
 images
In-Reply-To: <001101d75ed1$8d9b4ce0$a8d1e6a0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAGSKFy33zssFCLJYtzrb7Ug3WnWNhP49B0__tXCEQcdP59q_RA@mail.gmail.com>
 <001101d75ed1$8d9b4ce0$a8d1e6a0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <025b01d75ed5$e42fecb0$ac8fc610$@vreedom.com>

While studying aerospace in the 80ties I was fascinated by the LTA 20 and lectured about it:

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/van-dusen-lta-20-%C2%AB-magnus-%C2%BB-spherical-airship-prototype-1982.15770/

 

It was so beautiful, a manta ray embracing a slowly turning sphere. The main argument at that time was that it could lift heavy loads compared to a helicopter and do this without the infrastructure needed for planes. Interesting especially for developing countries. 

It came to nothing, which is a pity. Therefore, I would love a revival.

 

Stephan

 

Von: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> Im Auftrag von spike jones via extropy-chat
Gesendet: Freitag, 11. Juni 2021 15:54
An: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: spike at rainier66.com
Betreff: Re: [ExI] Inside of world's largest airship revealed in stunning images

 

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> > On Behalf Of John Grigg via extropy-chat
Subject: [ExI] Inside of world's largest airship revealed in stunning images

 

?

>?The firm thinks the vehicle, which is expected to enter service by 2025, will soon challenge conventional jets on a number of popular short-haul routes, thanks to its improved comfort and 90% lower emissions."

https://www.livescience.com/airlander-10-airship-interior-unveiled.html

I can think of plenty of uses for such a ride.  Conventional jets are fast, but cruise ships still get plenty of business, and those things are slow.  So? find a way to make it appealing, such as a means of doing your homework comfortably on the way down to the Phoenix office from LA or SF for instance.  Covid has taught us to do a lot of our work at home.  So now if it takes a full day to get to Phoenix, but it isn?t that different from a normal office day, that might sell.

spike

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From sparge at gmail.com  Fri Jun 11 16:10:42 2021
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2021 12:10:42 -0400
Subject: [ExI] colonial pipeline shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYjLnhYT_2-UoN8sNpcUHcBnyr3HV=1qLbt2e_r66tSqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002801d75ed2$ae7b7ab0$0b727010$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypXWBqPoO2ztrzo-s-FPximSRv_sJqkmj--2pb0LS8MRbA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYjLnhYT_2-UoN8sNpcUHcBnyr3HV=1qLbt2e_r66tSqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2cXZfgS58ieZaN35-aPxXR+C3UerLf8fQVUPdT_d9bRcw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 11, 2021 at 11:46 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> "If you can build it, I can hack it."   Is that true?  Are we ever, ever
> going to have a secure web so that enemies can't shut down anything they
> want to?
>

That's not true. Security is hard but it's not impossible. Security
professionals know how to improve security, they just need to be asked and
paid.

Perfect security, like anything else nontrivial, isn't achievable. But good
enough security is certainly doable.

-Dave
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From sparge at gmail.com  Fri Jun 11 16:19:56 2021
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2021 12:19:56 -0400
Subject: [ExI] colonial pipeline shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2ccN+L+h4xfYttFj1JK7qywM3dJGxUaCN9-3GTV-9F4eA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002801d75ed2$ae7b7ab0$0b727010$@rainier66.com>
 <CAM5aL2ccN+L+h4xfYttFj1JK7qywM3dJGxUaCN9-3GTV-9F4eA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2eQjNp50SFbQ=ebgtjMzbyJSmJWn9GFNK24+bW3ywu1FQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 11, 2021 at 11:21 AM Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> From
> https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-the-fbi-got-colonial-pipelines-ransom-money-back-11623403981
> which is paywalled:
>
>
>
> *After Colonial Pipeline Co. on May 8 paid roughly $4.4 million in
> cryptocurrency to hackers holding its computer systems hostage, the Federal
> Bureau of Investigation followed the digital money.Over the next 19 days,
> court records show, a special agent watched on a publicly visible bitcoin
> ledger as hackers transferred the 75 bitcoins to other digital addresses. A
> May 27 transfer of nearly 64 bitcoins landed at a virtual address to which
> the FBI gained access, providing an opportunity to get a warrant and
> pounce.*
>

As for how they did that, the likely answer is An0m, their "secure"
messaging app:

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/06/fbi-snooped-on-criminals-using-encrypted-messaging-app.html









*For nearly three years, the FBI covertly ran an encrypted messaging app
that tricked criminals into divulging their illegal activities on a massive
scale. Data pulled from the honeypot led to hundreds of arrests across 18
countries, authorities revealed Tuesday.The app, known as An0m, claimed to
offer its criminal clientele secure communications ? almost like an illicit
WhatsApp. In reality, the FBI surveilled the platform for clandestine
conversations on organized crime, drug trafficking, and money laundering.
?Essentially, we have been in the back pockets of organized crime and
operationalized a criminal takedown like we have never seen,? Australian
Federal Police commissioner Reece Kershaw said at a press event. The global
operation was code-named Trojan Shield in the United States and Europe and
Special Operation Ironside in Australia.The FBI and AFP designed the
communications platform to entice crime gangs by suiting their needs for
secure, encrypted communications. A May 18 affidavit filed by FBI special
agent Nicolas Cheviron said the FBI, the AFP, and their developer source
?built a master key into the existing encryption system which
surreptitiously attaches to each message and enables law enforcement to
decrypt and store the message as it is transmitted.??It has a good
reputation among criminals. They mutually promote it as the platform you
should use for its absolute reliability,? Jannine van den Berg, chief
commissioner of the national unit of the Dutch police, said at a press
event. Indeed, all told, there were 20 million messages from more than
11,000 devices. ?But nothing was further from the truth,? van den Berg
added.More than 800 suspects were arrested worldwide in ?one of the largest
and most sophisticated law-enforcement operations to date in the fight
against encrypted criminal activities,? Europol, the agency that
coordinates police activity among the 27 European Union countries, said in
a press release. Internationally, the operation seized 250 firearms, 55
luxury cars, and $48 million in cash and cryptocurrency, plus 22 tons of
marijuana, eight tons of cocaine, and two tons of methamphetamine and
amphetamine.*

-Dave
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From interzone at gmail.com  Fri Jun 11 16:33:55 2021
From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2021 12:33:55 -0400
Subject: [ExI] colonial pipeline shutdown
In-Reply-To: <002801d75ed2$ae7b7ab0$0b727010$@rainier66.com>
References: <002801d75ed2$ae7b7ab0$0b727010$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAJrqPH9jLJABzuu3uxDBh533KefnX1REkJr494MjcyhuTLn8MA@mail.gmail.com>

>From what I have gathered in my interweb travels, these supposed hackers
were dumb enough to use Coinbase as their fiat off ramp.   I don't believe
for a minute that an actual private wallet was compromised unless they
somehow got access to the hackers' computer(s) and the hacker had been dumb
enough to store anything related to their secret key on the computer.   If
these coins had been put into cold storage in a hardware wallet and the
hackers did not keep a record of their recovery phrase digitally, the odds
of the FBI being able to hack it are essentially nil.

If it is true that the coins were on Coinbase while the hackers were trying
to convert them back into fiat in a bank account,  Coinbase may have turned
the funds over to the Feds.

Best practices in crypto is to keep only enough on a centralized exchange
to do what you need to and then either move it to a hardware wallet or bank
account.   At this point, the only thing a centralized exchange like
Coinbase is needed for is the on ramp / off ramp.

On Fri, Jun 11, 2021 at 11:02 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> I didn?t follow this story very closely but what I heard doesn?t make
> sense.
>
>
>
> Some hackers somehow installed ransomware on the Colonial Pipeline system
> which caused a shutdown, resulting in fuel shortages on the east coast, but
> the company paid the ransom in bitcoins and got it back running again.
> That part makes sense, but the next part doesn?t.
>
>
>
> According to some sources, the FBI managed to get the money back somehow.
>
>
>
> Are there bitcoin hipsters among us who can explain how the FBI could do
> that?  Is it not true that bitcoin is secure?  If the FBI can get money
> from criminals, it can get money from anyone who it says is a criminal,
> ja?  If so, the premise behind bitcoin has been demonstrated false or
> flawed, so its value should have taken a steep dive.  I see that it did
> right when the pipeline shut down, but not when the story broke that the
> FBI had recovered some of the money.
>
>
>
> I don?t understand.
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Jun 11 16:40:37 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2021 09:40:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] colonial pipeline shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2cXZfgS58ieZaN35-aPxXR+C3UerLf8fQVUPdT_d9bRcw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002801d75ed2$ae7b7ab0$0b727010$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypXWBqPoO2ztrzo-s-FPximSRv_sJqkmj--2pb0LS8MRbA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYjLnhYT_2-UoN8sNpcUHcBnyr3HV=1qLbt2e_r66tSqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2cXZfgS58ieZaN35-aPxXR+C3UerLf8fQVUPdT_d9bRcw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNS7wY5TZPmeJbkEi0QNmp4PUKG6m==Aq+P218n0=VUQNw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 11, 2021 at 9:12 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 11, 2021 at 11:46 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> "If you can build it, I can hack it."   Is that true?  Are we ever, ever
>> going to have a secure web so that enemies can't shut down anything they
>> want to?
>>
>
> That's not true. Security is hard but it's not impossible. Security
> professionals know how to improve security, they just need to be asked and
> paid.
>

And authorized to actually do their jobs despite management's subsequent
wishes.

"What do you MEAN, I have to actually enter my password now?  This is
unacceptable!  I'm too important to be tasked to remember a password!"

"What do you MEAN, I am no longer allowed to access sensitive documents
from the local Starbucks?"

"What do you MEAN, you want to log what I do?  Are you seriously
proposing to hold me accountable for my actions?   I can have you fired for
suggesting such indignity!"


> Perfect security, like anything else nontrivial, isn't achievable. But
> good enough security is certainly doable.
>

Specifically, far better security than we have is achievable - in theory.
In practice, security and usability are often seen as tradeoffs of one
another.
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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Jun 11 16:44:38 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2021 09:44:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] colonial pipeline shutdown
In-Reply-To: <002801d75ed2$ae7b7ab0$0b727010$@rainier66.com>
References: <002801d75ed2$ae7b7ab0$0b727010$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTutGOQguPCC_OrHkRq7fwwA7afdy=fjPWRuvuWc47vAA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 11, 2021 at 8:03 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Some hackers somehow installed ransomware on the Colonial Pipeline system
> which caused a shutdown, resulting in fuel shortages on the east coast
>

Just to clarify this part too: they didn't actually get it on the pipeline
system itself, just the payment system.  Colonail Pipeline couldn't be sure
it was being paid, but it could still pump the petroleum.  It was CP's
decision to stop pumping, apparently out of fear that some customers might
not pay or might not pay enough, temporarily until the system could be
fixed and they could see who paid what.
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Jun 11 18:34:40 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2021 11:34:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Inside of world's largest airship revealed in stunning
 images
In-Reply-To: <025b01d75ed5$e42fecb0$ac8fc610$@vreedom.com>
References: <CAGSKFy33zssFCLJYtzrb7Ug3WnWNhP49B0__tXCEQcdP59q_RA@mail.gmail.com>
 <001101d75ed1$8d9b4ce0$a8d1e6a0$@rainier66.com>
 <025b01d75ed5$e42fecb0$ac8fc610$@vreedom.com>
Message-ID: <00ae01d75ef0$70e77d20$52b67760$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of Stephan Magnus via extropy-chat

Subject: Re: [ExI] Inside of world's largest airship revealed in stunning images

 

>?While studying aerospace in the 80ties I was fascinated by the LTA 20 and lectured about it:

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/van-dusen-lta-20-%C2%AB-magnus-%C2%BB-spherical-airship-prototype-1982.15770/

 

>?It was so beautiful, a manta ray embracing a slowly turning sphere?

It came to nothing, which is a pity. Therefore, I would love a revival.

 

Stephan

 

 

 

 

 

Stephan, one glance tells us the design is far from optimal for aerodynamic considerations.

 

spike

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 11 19:04:10 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2021 14:04:10 -0500
Subject: [ExI] colonial pipeline shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTutGOQguPCC_OrHkRq7fwwA7afdy=fjPWRuvuWc47vAA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002801d75ed2$ae7b7ab0$0b727010$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNTutGOQguPCC_OrHkRq7fwwA7afdy=fjPWRuvuWc47vAA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEabZi3bZwnzzQa5Rk3DPBjW158T4HSVqKa3V5-LsOgNxw@mail.gmail.com>

So in other words, Adrian, if all just followed the IT's instructions we'd
have a safer world.  However, stupidity and egotism will never leave us,
esp. at the managerial level.  bill w

On Fri, Jun 11, 2021 at 11:48 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 11, 2021 at 8:03 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Some hackers somehow installed ransomware on the Colonial Pipeline system
>> which caused a shutdown, resulting in fuel shortages on the east coast
>>
>
> Just to clarify this part too: they didn't actually get it on the pipeline
> system itself, just the payment system.  Colonail Pipeline couldn't be sure
> it was being paid, but it could still pump the petroleum.  It was CP's
> decision to stop pumping, apparently out of fear that some customers might
> not pay or might not pay enough, temporarily until the system could be
> fixed and they could see who paid what.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From sparge at gmail.com  Fri Jun 11 19:15:23 2021
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2021 15:15:23 -0400
Subject: [ExI] colonial pipeline shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEabZi3bZwnzzQa5Rk3DPBjW158T4HSVqKa3V5-LsOgNxw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002801d75ed2$ae7b7ab0$0b727010$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNTutGOQguPCC_OrHkRq7fwwA7afdy=fjPWRuvuWc47vAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEabZi3bZwnzzQa5Rk3DPBjW158T4HSVqKa3V5-LsOgNxw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2cezrkCG8QHQr9q-C3Md2qU_=NZ4-4amxY0Ofx0vbaZ6w@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 11, 2021 at 3:06 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> So in other words, Adrian, if all just followed the IT's instructions we'd
> have a safer world.  However, stupidity and egotism will never leave us,
> esp. at the managerial level.
>

Ransomware and high-profile incidents like the Solarwinds hack are bringing
sufficient attention to the need for security improvements that even
managers can't ignore it.

-Dave
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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Jun 11 19:16:50 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2021 12:16:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] colonial pipeline shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEabZi3bZwnzzQa5Rk3DPBjW158T4HSVqKa3V5-LsOgNxw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002801d75ed2$ae7b7ab0$0b727010$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNTutGOQguPCC_OrHkRq7fwwA7afdy=fjPWRuvuWc47vAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEabZi3bZwnzzQa5Rk3DPBjW158T4HSVqKa3V5-LsOgNxw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNS2Jz-uyhewa10Qfmr7qbiKt1_Raag0wmHY2ixObkXq9Q@mail.gmail.com>

That is not universally true, but it has been true in too many cases.

(Summary of my other email to this thread, not the one quoted.)

On Fri, Jun 11, 2021 at 12:06 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> So in other words, Adrian, if all just followed the IT's instructions we'd
> have a safer world.  However, stupidity and egotism will never leave us,
> esp. at the managerial level.  bill w
>
> On Fri, Jun 11, 2021 at 11:48 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Jun 11, 2021 at 8:03 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Some hackers somehow installed ransomware on the Colonial Pipeline
>>> system which caused a shutdown, resulting in fuel shortages on the east
>>> coast
>>>
>>
>> Just to clarify this part too: they didn't actually get it on the
>> pipeline system itself, just the payment system.  Colonail Pipeline
>> couldn't be sure it was being paid, but it could still pump the petroleum.
>> It was CP's decision to stop pumping, apparently out of fear that some
>> customers might not pay or might not pay enough, temporarily until the
>> system could be fixed and they could see who paid what.
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Jun 11 19:18:37 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2021 12:18:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] colonial pipeline shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2cezrkCG8QHQr9q-C3Md2qU_=NZ4-4amxY0Ofx0vbaZ6w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002801d75ed2$ae7b7ab0$0b727010$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNTutGOQguPCC_OrHkRq7fwwA7afdy=fjPWRuvuWc47vAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEabZi3bZwnzzQa5Rk3DPBjW158T4HSVqKa3V5-LsOgNxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2cezrkCG8QHQr9q-C3Md2qU_=NZ4-4amxY0Ofx0vbaZ6w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRry7L6tAEx_5X9=HNhZCAXmGm4x20UZNowZZLrV0JSmQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 11, 2021 at 12:17 PM Dave Sill via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 11, 2021 at 3:06 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> So in other words, Adrian, if all just followed the IT's instructions
>> we'd have a safer world.  However, stupidity and egotism will never leave
>> us, esp. at the managerial level.
>>
>
> Ransomware and high-profile incidents like the Solarwinds hack are
> bringing sufficient attention to the need for security improvements that
> even managers can't ignore it.
>

If only that were true.  Willful (and sometimes motivated) ignorance can be
a powerful force.
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From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Jun 11 19:34:48 2021
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2021 20:34:48 +0100
Subject: [ExI] colonial pipeline shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2cezrkCG8QHQr9q-C3Md2qU_=NZ4-4amxY0Ofx0vbaZ6w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002801d75ed2$ae7b7ab0$0b727010$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNTutGOQguPCC_OrHkRq7fwwA7afdy=fjPWRuvuWc47vAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEabZi3bZwnzzQa5Rk3DPBjW158T4HSVqKa3V5-LsOgNxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2cezrkCG8QHQr9q-C3Md2qU_=NZ4-4amxY0Ofx0vbaZ6w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgEkMLZ_KiPj8Tpzfzf=Aq5DqBzwoNEa0QmSJ=Na95maQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 11 Jun 2021 at 20:18, Dave Sill via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Ransomware and high-profile incidents like the Solarwinds hack are bringing sufficient attention to the need for security improvements that even managers can't ignore it.
>
> -Dave
> _______________________________________________


It's not just companies and managers involved.
Personal computers are being hacked as well. Emptying personal bank
accounts are not as newsworthy but provide a steady (less risky)
income for crooks. Individuals are less security conscious than
companies.

<https://gizmodo.com/this-shockingly-invasive-malware-stole-data-from-3-25-m-1847079897>
Quotes:
This Shockingly Invasive Malware Stole Data from 3.25 Million Windows Computers

The 1.2 terabytes of data include cookies, millions of email and
social login credentials, and personalized IDs to identify specific
compromised devices.
Lucas Ropek  June 11, 2021

As to the stolen data, it?s pretty overwhelming. The compromised login
information includes 1,471,416 Facebook credentials; 261,773 Twitter
credentials; 145,436 PayPal credentials; 87,282 Dropbox credentials;
1,540,650 Google account credentials, and so on. Other compromised
accounts include Coinbase, Blockchain, Outlook, Skype, Netflix...you
get the picture.
------------------

BillK


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 11 20:35:12 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2021 15:35:12 -0500
Subject: [ExI] colonial pipeline shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgEkMLZ_KiPj8Tpzfzf=Aq5DqBzwoNEa0QmSJ=Na95maQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002801d75ed2$ae7b7ab0$0b727010$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNTutGOQguPCC_OrHkRq7fwwA7afdy=fjPWRuvuWc47vAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEabZi3bZwnzzQa5Rk3DPBjW158T4HSVqKa3V5-LsOgNxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2cezrkCG8QHQr9q-C3Md2qU_=NZ4-4amxY0Ofx0vbaZ6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgEkMLZ_KiPj8Tpzfzf=Aq5DqBzwoNEa0QmSJ=Na95maQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYZjqra2mZU5vpqP6D+h+k5vF52EKmdKEAjaLiuwzY-VA@mail.gmail.com>

One thing that I have not seen mentioned: industrial espionage - moles not
in government but in industry, stealing secrets like passwords.  I think
some Chinese scientists were sent back to China just a short time ago.
These are going to be hard to catch.
These Asian scientists and mathematicians contribute a lot, so I suppose we
can't do without them.

bill w

On Fri, Jun 11, 2021 at 2:36 PM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Fri, 11 Jun 2021 at 20:18, Dave Sill via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > Ransomware and high-profile incidents like the Solarwinds hack are
> bringing sufficient attention to the need for security improvements that
> even managers can't ignore it.
> >
> > -Dave
> > _______________________________________________
>
>
> It's not just companies and managers involved.
> Personal computers are being hacked as well. Emptying personal bank
> accounts are not as newsworthy but provide a steady (less risky)
> income for crooks. Individuals are less security conscious than
> companies.
>
> <
> https://gizmodo.com/this-shockingly-invasive-malware-stole-data-from-3-25-m-1847079897
> >
> Quotes:
> This Shockingly Invasive Malware Stole Data from 3.25 Million Windows
> Computers
>
> The 1.2 terabytes of data include cookies, millions of email and
> social login credentials, and personalized IDs to identify specific
> compromised devices.
> Lucas Ropek  June 11, 2021
>
> As to the stolen data, it?s pretty overwhelming. The compromised login
> information includes 1,471,416 Facebook credentials; 261,773 Twitter
> credentials; 145,436 PayPal credentials; 87,282 Dropbox credentials;
> 1,540,650 Google account credentials, and so on. Other compromised
> accounts include Coinbase, Blockchain, Outlook, Skype, Netflix...you
> get the picture.
> ------------------
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 11 21:02:00 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2021 16:02:00 -0500
Subject: [ExI] history of science
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZZz=XDKYDr-0S1hcXAjgrzs2iM=roByw4KqXwakjGhAQ@mail.gmail.com>

'The Knowledge Machine' by Michael Strevens.

He is trying to explain the difference between Newton's attitude in doing
physics and his attitude doing alchemy:

"Yet he was not following the iron rule (only empirical testing counts).
He was not following any methodological doctrine at all.  What drove him
was pure instinct, a quirk of his psychology that made him quite unlike his
seventeenth century peers, a natural intellectual compartmentalizer."

I am going to take him to task for this, but I am curious as to what this
paragraph means to you, as a nonpsychologist (other psychologists welcome
too).

bill w
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From sm at vreedom.com  Fri Jun 11 21:42:19 2021
From: sm at vreedom.com (Stephan Magnus)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2021 22:42:19 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Inside of world's largest airship revealed in stunning
 images
In-Reply-To: <00ae01d75ef0$70e77d20$52b67760$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAGSKFy33zssFCLJYtzrb7Ug3WnWNhP49B0__tXCEQcdP59q_RA@mail.gmail.com>
 <001101d75ed1$8d9b4ce0$a8d1e6a0$@rainier66.com>
 <025b01d75ed5$e42fecb0$ac8fc610$@vreedom.com>
 <00ae01d75ef0$70e77d20$52b67760$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <040a01d75f0a$abc86e30$03594a90$@vreedom.com>

 

I don?t think that it is so easy. The idea to use the Magnus-effect for getting additional lift was quiet smart and something not used in classical designs. And for that it had to be a sphere with a rotation axis. The rotor ships using the same effect also don?t look optimal in relation to sail design.

But it?s true that the design was not ideal for stronger wind conditions.

 

Stephan

 

Von: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> Im Auftrag von spike jones via extropy-chat
Gesendet: Freitag, 11. Juni 2021 19:35
An: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: spike at rainier66.com
Betreff: Re: [ExI] Inside of world's largest airship revealed in stunning images

 

 

 

?> On Behalf Of Stephan Magnus via extropy-chat

Subject: Re: [ExI] Inside of world's largest airship revealed in stunning images

 

>?While studying aerospace in the 80ties I was fascinated by the LTA 20 and lectured about it:

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/van-dusen-lta-20-%C2%AB-magnus-%C2%BB-spherical-airship-prototype-1982.15770/

 

>?It was so beautiful, a manta ray embracing a slowly turning sphere?

It came to nothing, which is a pity. Therefore, I would love a revival.

 

Stephan

 

 

 

 

 

Stephan, one glance tells us the design is far from optimal for aerodynamic considerations.

 

spike

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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sat Jun 12 03:19:42 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2021 11:19:42 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Rare Jeff Bezos interview with his bizarre prediction for the
 future | 60 Minutes Australia
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy160JtBv31pjAGNhOP8+4-F9cG=Zd6f9i6dtvydFmxm7A@mail.gmail.com>

A fun presentation from wayyyy back in 2000, where Australian 60 Minutes
discusses our possible futures... Jeff Bezos looked so young and not evil!
Lol  ;  )

"For its first programme of the new century, 60 Minutes takes viewers on an
astounding journey into the future. The guides will include sci-fi
visionary, Arthur C. Clarke, Internet guru Jeff Bezos, President of the
United States Bill Clinton, NSW Premier Bob Carr, author and futurist Dr
Karl Kruszelnicki, NASA?s chief scientist Dennis Bushnell and business
forecaster Phil Ruthven. With their help, 60 Minutes leaps into a world of
150 year-olds with the faces and bodies of 25-year-olds, into a world where
bodies grow their own spare parts, where space becomes a desirable address,
where planes seat 800 people and fly Sydney to London at twice the speed of
sound while family cars sprout wings too. We hear predictions of beds that
will calculate how long we need to sleep, of fridges that order our
groceries and our looming battle to stave off environmental disaster"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfC_ICITCmc
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sat Jun 12 05:25:33 2021
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2021 01:25:33 -0400
Subject: [ExI] A comment I posted recently on somebody's blog
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFg3eMU=sY+s0ussBu_7abaTw3msNRcVO8NgteyRnDoSUQ@mail.gmail.com>

Some social movements rise from the bottom through virtue and attain power.
Power attracts the corrupt, the social status maximizing psychopaths.
Psychopaths defile all they touch and negate virtue, while still using the
virtuous language the movement used before it was corrupted. They demand
respect but being corrupt the only way they can get it is through the use
of power. Corrupt power breeds contempt and eventually a new social
movement rises to challenge power through virtue.

So the psychopath-infested Mother Church and the King were challenged and
deposed by the Philosophes and the freethinkers, only for the next
generations of psychopaths to crowd out the Progressives and bring a new
flavor of corruption to the body politic. Eventually the empty skin-suit of
former leftist virtue will burn off, leaving the diseased and bloated flesh
for all to see, until a new social movement sweeps corruption out the halls
of power.

The cycle continues.

-- 
Rafal Smigrodzki, MD-PhD
Schuyler Biotech PLLC
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sat Jun 12 06:03:07 2021
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2021 02:03:07 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The Great Culling
In-Reply-To: <20210610010421.Horde.Sr36VCpHP1c68qrHBl9xQby@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <20210610010421.Horde.Sr36VCpHP1c68qrHBl9xQby@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFjsHesAeEx8vUtAJ=2hi=eJGtYnxJ_+cRN8FscABpY3vw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 11, 2021 at 9:12 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> A year or two ago, Keith Henson turned me onto this mystery. Between
> 9000 and and 7000 years ago, women enjoyed a 17:1 reproductive success
> rate over men across the planet within the same 2-3 thousand year
> span. This suggests that for every 1 man that successfully reproduced,
> 16 failed and left no offspring. It coincided with a series of
> cultural and technological innovations including agriculture, animal
> domestication, and copper smelting. It is a big mystery why this
> happened and reasons proposed include a virus that affected only men.
>
> The popular opinion is that somehow on every continent a small tribe
> of "winners" emerged and amassed large harems of women through war or
> some other persuasion politics. But if so, why no infidelity? How did
> they so efficiently prevent so many men from breeding other than by
> exterminating them?
>
> For comparison, bull elephant seals that spend all their time fighting
> over females and then having sex with them, the "winners" only have
> reproductive ratio of 14:1.
>
> Here are some links:
>
> https://psmag.com/environment/17-to-1-reproductive-success
>
> https://www.livescience.com/62754-warring-clans-caused-population-bottleneck.html
>
> I am attaching the most compelling figure in the Genomics Research
> paper that first brought this mystery to light. Can you see that crazy
> sharp dip in the male breeding population like it was cut with a
> knife? Fortunately, the article is available for free without paywall
> here:
>
> https://genome.cshlp.org/content/early/2015/03/13/gr.186684.114.abstract
>
> With all the UFO/UAP chatter going on, I wonder if it is a bad time to
> point out that the pattern we see is similar to what you would see if
> a selective breeding experiment were carried out world-wide by a
> superior species. Where technology was used to kill or neuter the
> males with undesirable traits.
>
> This is called culling in the selective breeding business. What I am
> trying to point out is although a lot of cultural and technological
> advancement was occurring at the time, was this innovation the cause
> or effect of the selection for a few successful males almost
> simultaneously across multiple continents.
>
> A lot depends depends on whether the genetic, cultural, and
> technological innovation is the cause of the selective pressure or is
> the selective pressure actually the cause of world-wide cultural
> innovation? Rafal? Keith? Anyone?


### A couple of years ago I hypothesized on this list that the Yamnaya
culture triggered a phase transition starting about 10k years ago, by first
developing superior war technologies that allowed long-range warfare, which
gave the Yamnaya males the ability to slaughter other males and take their
women. Since increased geographical distance between the winner males and
the captive females optimized their mating distance, the resulting
offspring were phenotypically superior to parental populations, allowing
them to further expand by slaughtering ever more men and taking ever more
genetically distant females, eventually leading to their overrunning almost
all of Europe, Middle East, and India. Similar but smaller expansion/phase
transition waves occurred also in other parts of Asia. The present article
does not show anything dramatically new but it does provide a comprehensive
view of this transition across the world.

Interestingly Africa was least affected by the transition. No horses, no
big wars?

So no, I don't think this was an alien breeding plan but rather some
enterprising nomads figuring out how to fight from horseback in formation
using bow and arrows in superior numbers to attack the men of small
isolated tribes without taking many losses so as to keep going at it for
thousands of years, until they ran out of less organized men to kill. In
other words, this Great Culling of Men was due to the invention of
organized war run by professional warriors.

Rafal

Rafal
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sat Jun 12 06:21:35 2021
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2021 02:21:35 -0400
Subject: [ExI] that didn't age well
In-Reply-To: <009001d75c89$80eed650$82cc82f0$@rainier66.com>
References: <009001d75c89$80eed650$82cc82f0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFiiaCb+GzG__jd5qPg6Lj3EpOGNSmwVxCZQxO8frvMugA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 8, 2021 at 1:15 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
> Owwwww, dang, that hurts.  What happens when a conspiracy theory turns
> into a theory?
>
> https://twitter.com/alexandrosM/status/1401813071635501056/photo/1
>
> It's real.  Here's a screenshot of the article:
>
>
> https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30418-9/fulltext
>
> Well now.  I ain't a doctah, but that whole notion always sounded
> plausible to me.  I posted the notion on this forum over a year ago.  The
> bat-sandwich idea sounded more plausible to me than an intentional leak,
> and I still think it is, but either way, we haven't yet discovered a likely
> RNA match in nature, and it has been 16 months since this article came out.
>
>
### I did post on the lab leak theory a year ago too, in detail.

What I didn't know was that Fauci was the guy who approved the money for
the gain-of-function coronavirus research.

Isn't this amazing, the most guilty party in the whole US managed to become
the public face of US epidemiology and thus ideally positioned to cover up
his own gross incompetence?

Rafal
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sat Jun 12 07:41:28 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2021 15:41:28 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Hell Yeah, Another Venus Mission Just Got the Green Light
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3napeXEFo6Jcp+c0nyUiTE1CGkvPOxw7VVzP6RfUu7-g@mail.gmail.com>

I have always been deeply fascinated by Venus, and now three probes are
headed that way! I suspect if they look carefully enough, they will find
the bikini clad warrior women Edgar Rice Burroughs wrote about in the
Carson of Venus series...  ;  )

"It?s been just a week since NASA announced its two Venus missions
<https://gizmodo.com/hell-yes-were-going-to-venus-1847019429>, and now
there?s another one to look forward to. The European Space Agency today
announced EnVision, its own Venus-bound spacecraft, slated to launch in the
early 2030s.

?A new era in the exploration of our closest, yet wildly different, Solar
System neighbor awaits us,? said G?nther Hasinger, the agency?s science
director, in a press release
<https://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration/Space_Science/ESA_selects_revolutionary_Venus_mission_EnVision>.
?Together with the newly announced NASA-led Venus missions, we will have an
extremely comprehensive science program at this enigmatic planet well into
the next decade.?

Mysterious about our hot yellow wasteland of a neighbor are manifold: How
did it get so hot? Why is it so toxic? Does it still have active volcanoes?
Could life somehow exist in its atmosphere? In short, why did it end up so
different from Earth? Around the same time as NASA?s VERITAS and DAVINCI+
missions, EnVision will also head to Venus to find out. EnVision is more
comparable to VERITAS because they?re both orbiters; DAVINCI+ aims to land
on the surface. EnVision will be equipped with instruments to unpack the
planet?s geology, internal structure, gravitational field, atmosphere, and
surface composition. Together, the upcoming missions will give us a
refined, comprehensive look at Venus? current state and evolution."
https://gizmodo.com/hell-yeah-another-venus-mission-just-got-the-green-lig-1847070843
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sat Jun 12 08:02:59 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2021 16:02:59 +0800
Subject: [ExI] A Baffling 60-Year Old Mystery Propels the Documentary An
 Unknown Compelling Force
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy30hm0DTgypVTfvjEUo-NqSft4zG2_XMZxVKJ89Oa6bHQ@mail.gmail.com>

My own crazy theory was that an angry and territorial Yeti had terrorized
this doomed group of travelers! Lol But then a few years ago I saw a video
that said the mystery had been solved, and that an extremely rare and
vicious new form of weather had been discovered there, which is like a
cross between a horrific tornado and a hurricane. And it suddenly strikes
with such ferocity that it can break bones and cause death by hypothermia,
only to fade away within minutes.

"In 1959, nine hikers?mostly college students, all of whom had prior
experience exploring rugged terrain?set out into the Ural Mountains,
located in a frozen stretch
<https://gizmodo.com/cool-off-with-these-18-horror-movies-set-in-the-freezin-1796606662>
of what was then the Soviet Union
<https://gizmodo.com/vintage-memorabilia-celebrates-the-soviet-unions-cosmon-1638971938>.
When they failed to return, an intense search eventually yielded a grim
discovery: all nine were dead. Their bodies were found mysteriously far
from their campsite, severely underdressed for frigid temperatures
<https://gizmodo.com/why-freezing-to-death-makes-you-want-to-get-naked-1688151366>,
and some had hideous injuries that couldn?t be explained.

Over 60 years later, the Dyatlov Pass incident is an unsolved mystery
<https://gizmodo.com/netflixs-unsolved-mysteries-is-both-a-polished-update-a-1844264000>
that continues to fascinate the curious?including filmmaker Liam Le
Guillou, who became so obsessed with the story that he made a documentary
about it. *An Unknown Compelling Force* follows Le Guillou as he travels to
Russia and actually retraces the hikers? steps while chasing down every
clue and scrap of evidence he can find that might help the true story come
to light."
https://gizmodo.com/a-baffling-60-year-old-mystery-propels-the-documentary-1847067035
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sat Jun 12 07:56:49 2021
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2021 03:56:49 -0400
Subject: [ExI] those who are going to, did already
In-Reply-To: <002d01d7387e$53e5c1c0$fbb14540$@rainier66.com>
References: <002d01d7387e$53e5c1c0$fbb14540$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFjM74AvVxewQUy1hZG2kLXcvWNhJ5NarPfO4xZ9UwjhZQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 4:32 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>
> The covid pandemic was different than most in that the fatalities were
> concentrated in the elderly and people with a lot of other health problems,
> as opposed to something like the plague, which took people without regard
> to previous state of health.  The plague would leave behind a smaller
> population whose overall health was about the same as before.  But the
> covid pandemic can be seen to have left a surviving smaller population
> whose overall health is better and average age is younger.
>
>
>
> Do check my reasoning on that last conjecture.
>
>
>
> The CDC has a remarkable data site which illustrates what I think we are
> seeing.  Here?s the data from the past four years:
>
>
>
> https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Zooming in, notice what has been happening recently:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> As the vaccine drives the population toward herd immunity, the blue bars
> will go away, but the real signal catching my attention is how far below
> the orange (average) line are the green bars.  They are below the average
> mortality by a huge margin for the past several weeks.  We can ignore the
> data from about the last coupla weeks because it takes a while to get all
> the reports processed, but even if we ignore those, the average mortality
> is down.
>
>
>
> During the pandemic, we know there were plenty of suicides, perhaps
> because of despondency over a failed business.  I lost a young second
> cousin that way.  But at some point, most of those who are susceptible to
> suicide have done it already, leaving fewer suicidal people in the general
> population.
>
>
>
> Does not this chart illustrate that covid left behind a younger healthier
> population?
>
>
>

### Indeed, this seems to be the case. Covid burned through nursing homes
and hastened the deaths of hundreds of thousands of residents but only by a
half year or so, given that the average resident life expectancy in a
non-pandemic year is about 13 months. I expect that in the next year
hundreds of thousands of elderly will make the transition to nursing homes,
as this is the way of aging flesh, and the mortality rate will bounce back
to the long-term trend line.

Rafal
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sat Jun 12 08:16:41 2021
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2021 04:16:41 -0400
Subject: [ExI] pistols
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2cgENM=USpi-dEeSQQmdSQBopj+rVMs9DrStGTbTrRQQw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <008201d7357a$5dd0db90$197292b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbCskX440A6F=2=WtHBWvWC0Uw3kmq1qyRSj7_rNKn+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypXoiq_V_nMTb3QpFZN6wsR8MvomC8=3pmMBSNxZrNNGEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001801d7361b$b7f591a0$27e0b4e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypUZJz34daVQcsh4ZwFy6EOCb7YF71obFfoctruwHBxu2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <004401d73660$ca8da600$5fa8f200$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypXUxWDVfOMsk7VsQ7jjDbCTVjp0j42Y22=b5MSA2oi+BQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFh_krbt0svk2-TZUKwRUfPJrpPDAXxYgDjZs6QvJ4omgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWPD7cwDa6wF8Rs=yaS1C1DSYCzuhhUuU1uacd5U0wpXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFiYi25QNZs0VoGaGJ1xSWs_VO0aWEJrAkB8t4ENM+X0sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYG=90fEbWbS1vEfAk9vXvsmFnFyfd1U4Pp4CjUwCZksA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFg5A-tKLBMuGud+mOyLNgsX=uWhLSpqnY1B9kknfHaQGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAF0GBngdT=feFHcZMOAJ2VMcsH=WG8gqdQrgdm_ynU+Pkx2EJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <003d01d73c3f$10e665e0$32b331a0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAM5aL2cgENM=USpi-dEeSQQmdSQBopj+rVMs9DrStGTbTrRQQw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFg=x=-6Prk4PPNviFT3Gj2cV6cqh1kFbDQGGWEnJAQ4uw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 2:30 PM Dave Sill via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 11:03 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> In the USA today, police are being vilified daily for profit by our
>> mainstream media.
>>
>
> No, there's really a problem with excessive force and police
> accountability. Yes, a few (usual involving race) cases garner a huge
> amount of attention, but they highlight fundamental problems with excessive
> force and police accountability. Former Rep. Justin Amash says:
>
> *Restore justice to our justice system:*
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *End qualified immunity.End civil asset forfeiture.End the drug war.End
> victimless crimes.End overcriminalization.End no-knock warrants.End
> militarization of police.End mandatory minimums.End the death penalty.*
>
> https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1384650820311031811
>
> I think that would be a good start. Police unions are too powerful and
> something needs to be done about that, too.
>
>
### Amen to that....these perversions of justice need to stop ....all of
them.... except the death penalty.

I wish death on my criminal enemies. I am given to vicious vengefulness and
have no moral qualms about hiring policemen, lawyers and executioners.

Rafal
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sat Jun 12 08:55:05 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2021 16:55:05 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Here's the most complete picture of the Milky Way's center
 ever created
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1TzDwQh+c6DURrHE1272yae7gPLQCYK48h796_piOA6w@mail.gmail.com>

"Gaze up at the Sagittarius constellation, and you are looking at the
center of the *Milky Way*
<https://www.livescience.com/63847-facts-about-the-milky-way.html> galaxy.
It may not look like much to the naked eye (especially if a bunch of *space
junk* <https://www.livescience.com/space-junk-blocks-view-of-cosmos.html>
is blocking your view), but to the world's sharpest *X-ray*
<https://www.livescience.com/32344-what-are-x-rays.html> and *radio*
<https://www.livescience.com/50399-radio-waves.html> telescopes, the archer
hides a chaotic collage of *black holes*
<https://www.livescience.com/black-holes.html>, exploding stars, magnetic
fields and inexplicable bubbles of gas.

Now, using data from two such telescopes ? NASA's Chandra X-ray Observatory
and the MeerKAT radio telescope in South Africa ? researchers just pieced
together the most comprehensive picture yet of our galaxy's center. The
result is a glorious tangle of orange, green and purple X-ray emissions,
intertwined with tendrils of ghostly gray radio signals.

This image is an "unprecedented" view of the galactic center, plus the
mysterious structures towering above and below it, *according to a
statement* <https://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/2021/gcenter/index.html> from
Chandra researchers.

"The new panorama of the galactic center builds on previous surveys from
Chandra and other telescopes," the researchers wrote in the statement.
"This latest version expands Chandra's high-energy view farther above and
below the plane of the galaxy ? that is, the disk where most of the
galaxy's stars reside" ? than any previous imaging campaign, combining 370
separate observations from Chandra, the team added."

https://www.livescience.com/milky-way-center-composite-view-image.html
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From nuala.t at gmail.com  Sat Jun 12 10:19:05 2021
From: nuala.t at gmail.com (Nuala Thomson)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2021 20:19:05 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Here's the most complete picture of the Milky Way's
 center ever created
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy1TzDwQh+c6DURrHE1272yae7gPLQCYK48h796_piOA6w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy1TzDwQh+c6DURrHE1272yae7gPLQCYK48h796_piOA6w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEc3cqtCRm-bO8Skd4270XkEaOhumhPFca_Pp9VP=3jtTRtxGQ@mail.gmail.com>

That actually got an involuntary "whoa" from me and now I'm just trying to
figure out how to paint it.
Thank you!

On Sat., Jun. 12, 2021, 18:50 John Grigg via extropy-chat, <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> "Gaze up at the Sagittarius constellation, and you are looking at the
> center of the *Milky Way*
> <https://www.livescience.com/63847-facts-about-the-milky-way.html>
> galaxy. It may not look like much to the naked eye (especially if a bunch
> of *space junk*
> <https://www.livescience.com/space-junk-blocks-view-of-cosmos.html> is
> blocking your view), but to the world's sharpest *X-ray*
> <https://www.livescience.com/32344-what-are-x-rays.html> and *radio*
> <https://www.livescience.com/50399-radio-waves.html> telescopes, the
> archer hides a chaotic collage of *black holes*
> <https://www.livescience.com/black-holes.html>, exploding stars, magnetic
> fields and inexplicable bubbles of gas.
>
> Now, using data from two such telescopes ? NASA's Chandra X-ray
> Observatory and the MeerKAT radio telescope in South Africa ? researchers
> just pieced together the most comprehensive picture yet of our galaxy's
> center. The result is a glorious tangle of orange, green and purple X-ray
> emissions, intertwined with tendrils of ghostly gray radio signals.
>
> This image is an "unprecedented" view of the galactic center, plus the
> mysterious structures towering above and below it, *according to a
> statement* <https://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/2021/gcenter/index.html>
> from Chandra researchers.
>
> "The new panorama of the galactic center builds on previous surveys from
> Chandra and other telescopes," the researchers wrote in the statement.
> "This latest version expands Chandra's high-energy view farther above and
> below the plane of the galaxy ? that is, the disk where most of the
> galaxy's stars reside" ? than any previous imaging campaign, combining 370
> separate observations from Chandra, the team added."
>
> https://www.livescience.com/milky-way-center-composite-view-image.html
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From ben at zaiboc.net  Sat Jun 12 10:44:41 2021
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2021 11:44:41 +0100
Subject: [ExI] colonial pipeline shutdown
In-Reply-To: <mailman.21.1623445345.14874.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.21.1623445345.14874.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <b811cbd9-2d63-6648-17a0-e4e53e8eb9c2@zaiboc.net>

On 11/06/2021 22:02, Dave Sill wrote:
>
> On Fri, Jun 11, 2021 at 11:21 AM Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com 
> <mailto:sparge at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
>     From
>     https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-the-fbi-got-colonial-pipelines-ransom-money-back-11623403981
>     which is paywalled:
>
>     /After Colonial Pipeline Co. on May 8 paid roughly $4.4 million in
>     cryptocurrency to hackers holding its computer systems hostage,
>     the Federal Bureau of Investigation followed the digital money.
>
>     Over the next 19 days, court records show, a special agent watched
>     on a publicly visible bitcoin ledger as hackers transferred the 75
>     bitcoins to other digital addresses. *A May 27 transfer of nearly
>     64 bitcoins landed at a virtual address to which the FBI gained
>     access, providing an opportunity to get a warrant and pounce.*/
>
>
> As for how they did that, the likely answer is An0m, their "secure" 
> messaging app:
>
> https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/06/fbi-snooped-on-criminals-using-encrypted-messaging-app.html
>

So why make this public now, eh? You'd think they would want to keep 
this quiet. Making it public has to be a deliberate move, but why?

-- 
Ben Zaiboc

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From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Jun 12 12:12:39 2021
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2021 13:12:39 +0100
Subject: [ExI] colonial pipeline shutdown
In-Reply-To: <b811cbd9-2d63-6648-17a0-e4e53e8eb9c2@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.21.1623445345.14874.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <b811cbd9-2d63-6648-17a0-e4e53e8eb9c2@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhDuNLBm=_St36x5OJ1_GvF9p-cEb0hE1d8i2Sj6z10Jw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 12 Jun 2021 at 11:47, Ben via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> So why make this public now, eh? You'd think they would want to keep this quiet. Making it public has to be a deliberate move, but why?
>
> Ben Zaiboc
> _______________________________________________


Because arresting hundreds of criminals world-wide that used Anom
phones already rather gives the game away.
They might as well get a bit of good publicity as well.


BillK

From bronto at pobox.com  Sat Jun 12 16:30:47 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2021 09:30:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pistols
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFg=x=-6Prk4PPNviFT3Gj2cV6cqh1kFbDQGGWEnJAQ4uw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypXoiq_V_nMTb3QpFZN6wsR8MvomC8=3pmMBSNxZrNNGEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001801d7361b$b7f591a0$27e0b4e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypUZJz34daVQcsh4ZwFy6EOCb7YF71obFfoctruwHBxu2g@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAAc1gFh_krbt0svk2-TZUKwRUfPJrpPDAXxYgDjZs6QvJ4omgw@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAAc1gFiYi25QNZs0VoGaGJ1xSWs_VO0aWEJrAkB8t4ENM+X0sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYG=90fEbWbS1vEfAk9vXvsmFnFyfd1U4Pp4CjUwCZksA@mail.gmail.com>
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 <003d01d73c3f$10e665e0$32b331a0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAM5aL2cgENM=USpi-dEeSQQmdSQBopj+rVMs9DrStGTbTrRQQw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <f82f9d11-a624-d2f1-a90e-c2942f5b031d@pobox.com>

On 2021-6-12 01:16, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote:
> Amen to that....these perversions of justice need to stop
> ....all of them.... except the death penalty.
> 
> I wish death on my criminal enemies. I am given to vicious?vengefulness 
> and have no moral qualms about hiring policemen, lawyers and executioners.

How many false positives is your vengeance worth?

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Jun 12 18:55:52 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2021 13:55:52 -0500
Subject: [ExI] pistols
In-Reply-To: <f82f9d11-a624-d2f1-a90e-c2942f5b031d@pobox.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypXoiq_V_nMTb3QpFZN6wsR8MvomC8=3pmMBSNxZrNNGEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001801d7361b$b7f591a0$27e0b4e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypUZJz34daVQcsh4ZwFy6EOCb7YF71obFfoctruwHBxu2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <004401d73660$ca8da600$5fa8f200$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypXUxWDVfOMsk7VsQ7jjDbCTVjp0j42Y22=b5MSA2oi+BQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFh_krbt0svk2-TZUKwRUfPJrpPDAXxYgDjZs6QvJ4omgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWPD7cwDa6wF8Rs=yaS1C1DSYCzuhhUuU1uacd5U0wpXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFiYi25QNZs0VoGaGJ1xSWs_VO0aWEJrAkB8t4ENM+X0sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYG=90fEbWbS1vEfAk9vXvsmFnFyfd1U4Pp4CjUwCZksA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFg5A-tKLBMuGud+mOyLNgsX=uWhLSpqnY1B9kknfHaQGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAF0GBngdT=feFHcZMOAJ2VMcsH=WG8gqdQrgdm_ynU+Pkx2EJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <003d01d73c3f$10e665e0$32b331a0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAM5aL2cgENM=USpi-dEeSQQmdSQBopj+rVMs9DrStGTbTrRQQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFg=x=-6Prk4PPNviFT3Gj2cV6cqh1kFbDQGGWEnJAQ4uw@mail.gmail.com>
 <f82f9d11-a624-d2f1-a90e-c2942f5b031d@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZYRo=j4fzgv17v=DrDgYeFJcBwaFxYeXmPnkGF4C5SwQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 12:39 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On 2021-6-12 01:16, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote:
> > Amen to that....these perversions of justice need to stop
> > ....all of them.... except the death penalty.
> >
> > I wish death on my criminal enemies. I am given to vicious vengefulness
> > and have no moral qualms about hiring policemen, lawyers and
> executioners.
>
> How many false positives is your vengeance worth?
>
> --Hear hear!   bill w
> *\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Jun 12 21:35:34 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2021 16:35:34 -0500
Subject: [ExI] short review
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYTjxctfj8R7J5LYL_sTppXxjpzV-9_Awjzi9gge47A-A@mail.gmail.com>

'The Knowledge Machine' by Michael Strevens.  History of science.

Did a lot of comparing Kuhn and Popper and convincingly rejected both of
them.  Tried with some success to explain why it took so long for real
science to get its real start in the 17th century.  Singled out Newton as
the father of science as we know it.  Presented some views on the
subjective nature of science.  Major omission:  role of religion in keeping
science from happening.  Pretty good writing.  Quote from the book:

"Opinion that runs hot-blooded ahead of established fact is the life force
of scientific inquiry."

bill w
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sun Jun 13 04:57:32 2021
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2021 00:57:32 -0400
Subject: [ExI] pistols
In-Reply-To: <f82f9d11-a624-d2f1-a90e-c2942f5b031d@pobox.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypXoiq_V_nMTb3QpFZN6wsR8MvomC8=3pmMBSNxZrNNGEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001801d7361b$b7f591a0$27e0b4e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypUZJz34daVQcsh4ZwFy6EOCb7YF71obFfoctruwHBxu2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <004401d73660$ca8da600$5fa8f200$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypXUxWDVfOMsk7VsQ7jjDbCTVjp0j42Y22=b5MSA2oi+BQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFh_krbt0svk2-TZUKwRUfPJrpPDAXxYgDjZs6QvJ4omgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWPD7cwDa6wF8Rs=yaS1C1DSYCzuhhUuU1uacd5U0wpXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFiYi25QNZs0VoGaGJ1xSWs_VO0aWEJrAkB8t4ENM+X0sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYG=90fEbWbS1vEfAk9vXvsmFnFyfd1U4Pp4CjUwCZksA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFg5A-tKLBMuGud+mOyLNgsX=uWhLSpqnY1B9kknfHaQGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAF0GBngdT=feFHcZMOAJ2VMcsH=WG8gqdQrgdm_ynU+Pkx2EJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <003d01d73c3f$10e665e0$32b331a0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAM5aL2cgENM=USpi-dEeSQQmdSQBopj+rVMs9DrStGTbTrRQQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFg=x=-6Prk4PPNviFT3Gj2cV6cqh1kFbDQGGWEnJAQ4uw@mail.gmail.com>
 <f82f9d11-a624-d2f1-a90e-c2942f5b031d@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFguqJmgo=M2_ujqxYhHs4WD_Epn6GztrU5whf5T=dt3OA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 1:39 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On 2021-6-12 01:16, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote:
> > Amen to that....these perversions of justice need to stop
> > ....all of them.... except the death penalty.
> >
> > I wish death on my criminal enemies. I am given to vicious vengefulness
> > and have no moral qualms about hiring policemen, lawyers and
> executioners.
>
> How many false positives is your vengeance worth?
>
>
### That depends on my mood. About 2% is usual but on the day of wrath I
might acquiesce to a much higher number.

Nil inultum remanebit.

Rafal
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Sun Jun 13 06:28:21 2021
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2021 02:28:21 -0400
Subject: [ExI] pistols
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFguqJmgo=M2_ujqxYhHs4WD_Epn6GztrU5whf5T=dt3OA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypXoiq_V_nMTb3QpFZN6wsR8MvomC8=3pmMBSNxZrNNGEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001801d7361b$b7f591a0$27e0b4e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypUZJz34daVQcsh4ZwFy6EOCb7YF71obFfoctruwHBxu2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <004401d73660$ca8da600$5fa8f200$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypXUxWDVfOMsk7VsQ7jjDbCTVjp0j42Y22=b5MSA2oi+BQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFh_krbt0svk2-TZUKwRUfPJrpPDAXxYgDjZs6QvJ4omgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWPD7cwDa6wF8Rs=yaS1C1DSYCzuhhUuU1uacd5U0wpXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFiYi25QNZs0VoGaGJ1xSWs_VO0aWEJrAkB8t4ENM+X0sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYG=90fEbWbS1vEfAk9vXvsmFnFyfd1U4Pp4CjUwCZksA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFg5A-tKLBMuGud+mOyLNgsX=uWhLSpqnY1B9kknfHaQGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAF0GBngdT=feFHcZMOAJ2VMcsH=WG8gqdQrgdm_ynU+Pkx2EJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <003d01d73c3f$10e665e0$32b331a0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAM5aL2cgENM=USpi-dEeSQQmdSQBopj+rVMs9DrStGTbTrRQQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFg=x=-6Prk4PPNviFT3Gj2cV6cqh1kFbDQGGWEnJAQ4uw@mail.gmail.com>
 <f82f9d11-a624-d2f1-a90e-c2942f5b031d@pobox.com>
 <CAAc1gFguqJmgo=M2_ujqxYhHs4WD_Epn6GztrU5whf5T=dt3OA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyGo5xOMywzj=ujLvHc8nGJCho03hDkXkPpjYCmhnbDYPg@mail.gmail.com>

cringe

On Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 12:58 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 1:39 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> On 2021-6-12 01:16, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote:
>> > Amen to that....these perversions of justice need to stop
>> > ....all of them.... except the death penalty.
>> >
>> > I wish death on my criminal enemies. I am given to vicious vengefulness
>> > and have no moral qualms about hiring policemen, lawyers and
>> executioners.
>>
>> How many false positives is your vengeance worth?
>>
>>
> ### That depends on my mood. About 2% is usual but on the day of wrath I
> might acquiesce to a much higher number.
>
> Nil inultum remanebit.
>
> Rafal
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From monteluna at protonmail.com  Sun Jun 13 12:34:54 2021
From: monteluna at protonmail.com (JF)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2021 12:34:54 +0000
Subject: [ExI] VitaDAO,
 a longevity research decentralized autonomous organization
Message-ID: <5Eff4gIxWMnvw1SZrnFj625McYmu4nxAufyuz_-LSU9i6Hi5yWSjhcnnptgTLw0Kf5G_Cj7zlTjyf04NiYxdKwZeZ-DTi9m3Uf7Yi0Gs_CU=@protonmail.com>

Not sure if you've all heard, but in 5 days, VitaDAO will launch. It is a DAO on Ethereum that will raise and deploy capital into longevity research. I know we're all reeling from the amount of token volatility over the past few weeks, but it seems as if the promise of decentralized finance is actually starting to shape. Hoping to see some other Extropians take a look at this.

https://vitadao.medium.com/funding-the-single-biggest-factor-limiting-longevity-research-9afab9ea34ca
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Jun 13 12:55:35 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2021 20:55:35 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Preference for video over text?
In-Reply-To: <1392935650.3190873.1623103097849@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CACB7g26pxRCx8EfyHM63ZPtda5A_YdE+0pgUiEmv3FQLDPv8uA@mail.gmail.com>
 <708A16A6-69F9-497F-99B8-D9762BC54D93@gmail.com>
 <1392935650.3190873.1623103097849@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy2iS_FM-tC9WosHBeDmXGzfhzw7Wayjpz5fiN+WOzXh=Q@mail.gmail.com>

 On 06/06/2021 17:49, SR Ballard wrote:
> Why do so many people have a preference for video over text? Is it slow
reading speed, laziness?
>
> I can read much faster than a video can present, I can scan the text, I
can easily copy-paste quotes from text. I don?t have to fight with accents
and poor pronunciation.
>
> Is it due to my ?learning style? that I have a preference for text?
And/or why does it seem like everyone prefers video to text?
>
> SR Ballard

I was thinking about this very subject the other day, as I was yet again
perusing Youtube. It occurred to me that for many topics, a text article
would be faster to absorb, with information easier to find, than a video.

I suppose video comes with a certain amount of "entertainment factor" that
people, including me, like.

John

On Tue, Jun 8, 2021 at 6:00 AM Sherry Knepper via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> If its yes, I am not included in the "we".
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
> <https://go.onelink.me/107872968?pid=InProduct&c=Global_Internal_YGrowth_AndroidEmailSig__AndroidUsers&af_wl=ym&af_sub1=Internal&af_sub2=Global_YGrowth&af_sub3=EmailSignature>
>
> On Mon, Jun 7, 2021 at 4:03 PM, SR Ballard via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> So, it seems as a mailing list we prefer text then?
>
> SR Ballard
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Jun 13 13:39:36 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2021 21:39:36 +0800
Subject: [ExI] The Great Culling
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFjsHesAeEx8vUtAJ=2hi=eJGtYnxJ_+cRN8FscABpY3vw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20210610010421.Horde.Sr36VCpHP1c68qrHBl9xQby@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAAc1gFjsHesAeEx8vUtAJ=2hi=eJGtYnxJ_+cRN8FscABpY3vw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy0ckfG+e0y9tGNfuXHrKAV+tA7TkkEVqdQRvfWBMaJcwQ@mail.gmail.com>

Rafal, what do you think caused the great near extinction of approximately
70,0000 years ago? Apparently, the Mount Toba eruption theory is no longer
seen as a thorough explanation of what happened...
The human race once came dangerously close to dying out ? here's how it
changed us
https://www.businessinsider.com/genetic-bottleneck-almost-killed-humans-2016-

On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 2:05 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Jun 11, 2021 at 9:12 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> A year or two ago, Keith Henson turned me onto this mystery. Between
>> 9000 and and 7000 years ago, women enjoyed a 17:1 reproductive success
>> rate over men across the planet within the same 2-3 thousand year
>> span. This suggests that for every 1 man that successfully reproduced,
>> 16 failed and left no offspring. It coincided with a series of
>> cultural and technological innovations including agriculture, animal
>> domestication, and copper smelting. It is a big mystery why this
>> happened and reasons proposed include a virus that affected only men.
>>
>> The popular opinion is that somehow on every continent a small tribe
>> of "winners" emerged and amassed large harems of women through war or
>> some other persuasion politics. But if so, why no infidelity? How did
>> they so efficiently prevent so many men from breeding other than by
>> exterminating them?
>>
>> For comparison, bull elephant seals that spend all their time fighting
>> over females and then having sex with them, the "winners" only have
>> reproductive ratio of 14:1.
>>
>> Here are some links:
>>
>> https://psmag.com/environment/17-to-1-reproductive-success
>>
>> https://www.livescience.com/62754-warring-clans-caused-population-bottleneck.html
>>
>> I am attaching the most compelling figure in the Genomics Research
>> paper that first brought this mystery to light. Can you see that crazy
>> sharp dip in the male breeding population like it was cut with a
>> knife? Fortunately, the article is available for free without paywall
>> here:
>>
>> https://genome.cshlp.org/content/early/2015/03/13/gr.186684.114.abstract
>>
>> With all the UFO/UAP chatter going on, I wonder if it is a bad time to
>> point out that the pattern we see is similar to what you would see if
>> a selective breeding experiment were carried out world-wide by a
>> superior species. Where technology was used to kill or neuter the
>> males with undesirable traits.
>>
>> This is called culling in the selective breeding business. What I am
>> trying to point out is although a lot of cultural and technological
>> advancement was occurring at the time, was this innovation the cause
>> or effect of the selection for a few successful males almost
>> simultaneously across multiple continents.
>>
>> A lot depends depends on whether the genetic, cultural, and
>> technological innovation is the cause of the selective pressure or is
>> the selective pressure actually the cause of world-wide cultural
>> innovation? Rafal? Keith? Anyone?
>
>
> ### A couple of years ago I hypothesized on this list that the Yamnaya
> culture triggered a phase transition starting about 10k years ago, by first
> developing superior war technologies that allowed long-range warfare, which
> gave the Yamnaya males the ability to slaughter other males and take their
> women. Since increased geographical distance between the winner males and
> the captive females optimized their mating distance, the resulting
> offspring were phenotypically superior to parental populations, allowing
> them to further expand by slaughtering ever more men and taking ever more
> genetically distant females, eventually leading to their overrunning almost
> all of Europe, Middle East, and India. Similar but smaller expansion/phase
> transition waves occurred also in other parts of Asia. The present article
> does not show anything dramatically new but it does provide a comprehensive
> view of this transition across the world.
>
> Interestingly Africa was least affected by the transition. No horses, no
> big wars?
>
> So no, I don't think this was an alien breeding plan but rather some
> enterprising nomads figuring out how to fight from horseback in formation
> using bow and arrows in superior numbers to attack the men of small
> isolated tribes without taking many losses so as to keep going at it for
> thousands of years, until they ran out of less organized men to kill. In
> other words, this Great Culling of Men was due to the invention of
> organized war run by professional warriors.
>
> Rafal
>
> Rafal
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Jun 13 13:46:39 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2021 21:46:39 +0800
Subject: [ExI] dementia
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYKNMn0QW1rBotDsNOL2R0ZbYjN0rudCf2ioJxbtU5KOA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYKNMn0QW1rBotDsNOL2R0ZbYjN0rudCf2ioJxbtU5KOA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3WBeWkvQqb_LvvbEgkxhPCX8MZ_i8hCXxj47curFoH-Q@mail.gmail.com>

It is interesting how some elderly make it to their nineties and beyond in
good shape due to being blessed with a genetic hardiness that others lack.
We need to figure out how we can replicate their condition so that everyone
can be so fortunate.

John

On Sat, May 29, 2021 at 8:40 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> About 3.4 million people, or 13.9 *percent* of the population age 71 and
> *older*, have some form of *dementia*, the study found. As expected, the
> prevalence of *dementia* increased dramatically with age, from five
> *percent* of those aged 71 to 79 to 37.4 *percent* of those age 90 and
> *older*.
>
> How about them 90 year olds?  Almost 2/3rds functioning well.  Of course
> one does not get to be 90 without being in good health, as a general rule.
> Surely the percentages would be higher if those with simple cognitive
> decline, such as mild memory problems were included.  (I am assuming that
> 'dementia' does not include those.)
>
> bill w
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Jun 13 13:59:26 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2021 21:59:26 +0800
Subject: [ExI] those who are going to, did already
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFjM74AvVxewQUy1hZG2kLXcvWNhJ5NarPfO4xZ9UwjhZQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002d01d7387e$53e5c1c0$fbb14540$@rainier66.com>
 <CAAc1gFjM74AvVxewQUy1hZG2kLXcvWNhJ5NarPfO4xZ9UwjhZQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy0QzSkCJsOc0pBtqqUryqaB15jATZgs5_7XZ7rfRUKhXQ@mail.gmail.com>

My understanding is that Covid fairly often is being found to leave
permanent damage to the bodies/organs of the young and middle aged people
it infects, along with the elderly. The brain, the heart, lungs, etc., can
suffer long-term harm. It is definitely an even nastier virus than it
appears to be at first glance...

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210401/many-show-long-term-organ-damage-after-covid

On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 4:04 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 4:32 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The covid pandemic was different than most in that the fatalities were
>> concentrated in the elderly and people with a lot of other health problems,
>> as opposed to something like the plague, which took people without regard
>> to previous state of health.  The plague would leave behind a smaller
>> population whose overall health was about the same as before.  But the
>> covid pandemic can be seen to have left a surviving smaller population
>> whose overall health is better and average age is younger.
>>
>>
>>
>> Do check my reasoning on that last conjecture.
>>
>>
>>
>> The CDC has a remarkable data site which illustrates what I think we are
>> seeing.  Here?s the data from the past four years:
>>
>>
>>
>> https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Zooming in, notice what has been happening recently:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> As the vaccine drives the population toward herd immunity, the blue bars
>> will go away, but the real signal catching my attention is how far below
>> the orange (average) line are the green bars.  They are below the average
>> mortality by a huge margin for the past several weeks.  We can ignore the
>> data from about the last coupla weeks because it takes a while to get all
>> the reports processed, but even if we ignore those, the average mortality
>> is down.
>>
>>
>>
>> During the pandemic, we know there were plenty of suicides, perhaps
>> because of despondency over a failed business.  I lost a young second
>> cousin that way.  But at some point, most of those who are susceptible to
>> suicide have done it already, leaving fewer suicidal people in the general
>> population.
>>
>>
>>
>> Does not this chart illustrate that covid left behind a younger healthier
>> population?
>>
>>
>>
>
> ### Indeed, this seems to be the case. Covid burned through nursing homes
> and hastened the deaths of hundreds of thousands of residents but only by a
> half year or so, given that the average resident life expectancy in a
> non-pandemic year is about 13 months. I expect that in the next year
> hundreds of thousands of elderly will make the transition to nursing homes,
> as this is the way of aging flesh, and the mortality rate will bounce back
> to the long-term trend line.
>
> Rafal
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Jun 13 14:09:00 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2021 22:09:00 +0800
Subject: [ExI] donor head
In-Reply-To: <b4f1522a-9c1d-333d-4289-73bdbd9a37b8@pobox.com>
References: <002a01d73c58$ea40e8b0$bec2ba10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-ontjs75NP+cjgb3dZQE9GfSPXhePxBHpCA3PEYPdKADP+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <004e01d73c62$be218b90$3a64a2b0$@rainier66.com>
 <006c01d73c68$86bc6d40$943547c0$@rainier66.com>
 <b4f1522a-9c1d-333d-4289-73bdbd9a37b8@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3AHTdftvSFadmnjZApVq-PEHxasoKU5at9STcjD-DNMw@mail.gmail.com>

Spike, I sure hope you get signed up for cryonics. The people of the future
would love your company! And they would really enjoy seeing you oohing and
ahhing at all of their astonishing technology. That's why they will bring
cryonauts back, so that they can show off! Lol  : )

John

On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 5:51 AM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On 2021-4-28 12:56, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:
> > Then an idea occurred to me.  If some kind bio-unit could arrange for
> > sim-me to never know about what fun I had while I was a bio-unit, then I
> > wouldn?t become the digital equivalent of the saddest cloud floater in
> > the harp section.  If someone volunteered to find a way for software to
> > not be able to access its predecessor writings, such as systematically
> > deleting it, then the sim-mes would not have the option of comparing
> > itself to its own bio-mes.  Then that upload would be a lot happier
> > software.
>
> This reminds me of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JlxuQ7tPgQ
>
> --
> *\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Jun 13 14:12:43 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2021 22:12:43 +0800
Subject: [ExI] yelling fire
In-Reply-To: <ab945bc0-cb4d-c4d3-b8fd-4336c0795979@pobox.com>
References: <001c01d72d51$d391fd40$7ab5f7c0$@rainier66.com>
 <ab945bc0-cb4d-c4d3-b8fd-4336c0795979@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy0u+inETszY7EZOd4+0=H4s9Mh4Q54tJca738VPESf5zQ@mail.gmail.com>

Spike wrote:
 "They still don?t understand of course, because explosives are illegal in
California.  The meekly conforming drones have never seen either a cherry
bomb or an M-80.  Sheesh, kids these days."

Don't get me started! And I bet most of them never got a copy of the
classic "Anarchist's Bible," and if they did, it was the very slender
highly edited version! Lol

John

On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 7:41 AM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On 2021-4-09 08:05, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:
> > I heard an expression this week that reminds me of my cheerfully
> > misspent childhood: You can?t yell fire in a crowded theatre.
>
> The phrase has a shameful history.
>
> https://www.popehat.com/2012/09/19/three-generations-of-a-hackneyed-apologia-for-censorship-are-enough/
>
> Ironically in light of its source, the metaphor applies more aptly to
> politicians who tell tall tales to stir up war.
>
> --
> *\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Jun 13 14:09:46 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2021 07:09:46 -0700
Subject: [ExI] donor head
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy3AHTdftvSFadmnjZApVq-PEHxasoKU5at9STcjD-DNMw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002a01d73c58$ea40e8b0$bec2ba10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-ontjs75NP+cjgb3dZQE9GfSPXhePxBHpCA3PEYPdKADP+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <004e01d73c62$be218b90$3a64a2b0$@rainier66.com>
 <006c01d73c68$86bc6d40$943547c0$@rainier66.com>
 <b4f1522a-9c1d-333d-4289-73bdbd9a37b8@pobox.com>
 <CAGSKFy3AHTdftvSFadmnjZApVq-PEHxasoKU5at9STcjD-DNMw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001101d7605d$c49827d0$4dc87770$@rainier66.com>

 

>?Spike, I sure hope you get signed up for cryonics. The people of the future would love your company! And they would really enjoy seeing you oohing and ahhing at all of their astonishing technology. That's why they will bring cryonauts back, so that they can show off! Lol  : )       John

 

 

 

 

Thanks John.

 

I was with a group of college friends a couple weeks ago.  The discussion came up.  I was surprised at how mainstream the idea has become.

 

spike

 

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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Jun 13 14:23:00 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2021 22:23:00 +0800
Subject: [ExI] heart report - FYI; book review
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYYQUUoRO0KFaOot5=K2=eCdGz=64rTM8RkRYtUUyDsLw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYYQUUoRO0KFaOot5=K2=eCdGz=64rTM8RkRYtUUyDsLw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3RbCMMM1XXcx0w-ezDhUgg0wohY2Q5n58CmXKL6tFjsA@mail.gmail.com>

I'm very glad that you are still with us, and with a functioning heart...

I will have to track that sf novel down. You are the second person to have
recommended it to me.

And I would recommend this rise of the machines tale... I would give it a 4
out of a possible 5 stars... If it is ever made into a film, I hope they
keep the scene where several hundred "nude" sexbots are activated and sent
on a rampage to allow the protagonist to escape! Lol

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/32617610-sea-of-rust

John

On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 6:13 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> ejection rate last summer = 32 (below 40 heart failure).  Rate yesterday =
> 45 (40-50 borderline.  Normal 50-70.
>
> So, an excellent result - maybe Entresto and statins really work.  Looks
> as though I'll be around awhile.
>
> Book - The Humans; Matt Haig - very funny in places; good satire; a man
> solves the Riemann hypothesis and aliens are worried, so one comes down,
> kills the mathematician and inhabits his body to destroy any evidence, and
> learn about humans.  Definitely worth reading 4.5/5
>
> bill w
>
> bill w
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Jun 13 15:13:52 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2021 23:13:52 +0800
Subject: [ExI] donor head
In-Reply-To: <001101d7605d$c49827d0$4dc87770$@rainier66.com>
References: <002a01d73c58$ea40e8b0$bec2ba10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-ontjs75NP+cjgb3dZQE9GfSPXhePxBHpCA3PEYPdKADP+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <004e01d73c62$be218b90$3a64a2b0$@rainier66.com>
 <006c01d73c68$86bc6d40$943547c0$@rainier66.com>
 <b4f1522a-9c1d-333d-4289-73bdbd9a37b8@pobox.com>
 <CAGSKFy3AHTdftvSFadmnjZApVq-PEHxasoKU5at9STcjD-DNMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <001101d7605d$c49827d0$4dc87770$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy0AdZXhvvV1vojbPsOcmMJ8po_6Ve6x7Wn0_ChjavLu3Q@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not so sure, but perhaps the tide is turning. I hear there will be a
cryonics company in mainland China, which I find fascinating. But at the
same time, I heard a cryonics horror story about how the couple behind
KrioRus are engaged in such a crazy feud that it will probably be turned
into a Hollywood film in a decade or so. They split up and the organization
members broke into two factions, choosing sides between them, The woman and
her followers "stole" the suspended bodies and hid them! The man and his
people tried to recover them, but to no avail. Meanwhile, she got involved
with an Italian fellow who is a leader in his local mortuary industry, and
who also has mafia connections. The story is that he sees cryonics as a big
money making opportunity and that the Italian Mafia wants to exploit it!
And to think we thought cryonics had an image problem in the past! Lol "So
you are signed up for cryonics because you are a member or at least
supporter of the mafia?" But hey, women like dangerous men!  ;  )

https://biohackinfo.com/news-kriorus-cryonics-russia-transhumanism-ndrangheta/

John

On Sun, Jun 13, 2021 at 10:15 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> >?Spike, I sure hope you get signed up for cryonics. The people of the
> future would love your company! And they would really enjoy seeing you
> oohing and ahhing at all of their astonishing technology. That's why they
> will bring cryonauts back, so that they can show off! Lol  : )       John
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks John.
>
>
>
> I was with a group of college friends a couple weeks ago.  The discussion
> came up.  I was surprised at how mainstream the idea has become.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Jun 13 15:20:19 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2021 23:20:19 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Here's the most complete picture of the Milky Way's
 center ever created
In-Reply-To: <CAEc3cqtCRm-bO8Skd4270XkEaOhumhPFca_Pp9VP=3jtTRtxGQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy1TzDwQh+c6DURrHE1272yae7gPLQCYK48h796_piOA6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cqtCRm-bO8Skd4270XkEaOhumhPFca_Pp9VP=3jtTRtxGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3QNp_33Cydn3DKsL2Ywf78fCYkSFw9Sztc+_Tuhkf2zw@mail.gmail.com>

Nuala Thomson wrote:
"That actually got an involuntary "whoa" from me and now I'm just trying to
figure out how to paint it.
Thank you!"

My pleasure! I really enjoy finding interesting links and sharing them here.

John

On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 6:22 PM Nuala Thomson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> That actually got an involuntary "whoa" from me and now I'm just trying to
> figure out how to paint it.
> Thank you!
>
> On Sat., Jun. 12, 2021, 18:50 John Grigg via extropy-chat, <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> "Gaze up at the Sagittarius constellation, and you are looking at the
>> center of the *Milky Way*
>> <https://www.livescience.com/63847-facts-about-the-milky-way.html>
>> galaxy. It may not look like much to the naked eye (especially if a bunch
>> of *space junk*
>> <https://www.livescience.com/space-junk-blocks-view-of-cosmos.html> is
>> blocking your view), but to the world's sharpest *X-ray*
>> <https://www.livescience.com/32344-what-are-x-rays.html> and *radio*
>> <https://www.livescience.com/50399-radio-waves.html> telescopes, the
>> archer hides a chaotic collage of *black holes*
>> <https://www.livescience.com/black-holes.html>, exploding stars,
>> magnetic fields and inexplicable bubbles of gas.
>>
>> Now, using data from two such telescopes ? NASA's Chandra X-ray
>> Observatory and the MeerKAT radio telescope in South Africa ? researchers
>> just pieced together the most comprehensive picture yet of our galaxy's
>> center. The result is a glorious tangle of orange, green and purple X-ray
>> emissions, intertwined with tendrils of ghostly gray radio signals.
>>
>> This image is an "unprecedented" view of the galactic center, plus the
>> mysterious structures towering above and below it, *according to a
>> statement* <https://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/2021/gcenter/index.html>
>> from Chandra researchers.
>>
>> "The new panorama of the galactic center builds on previous surveys from
>> Chandra and other telescopes," the researchers wrote in the statement.
>> "This latest version expands Chandra's high-energy view farther above and
>> below the plane of the galaxy ? that is, the disk where most of the
>> galaxy's stars reside" ? than any previous imaging campaign, combining 370
>> separate observations from Chandra, the team added."
>>
>> https://www.livescience.com/milky-way-center-composite-view-image.html
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Jun 13 15:32:56 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2021 10:32:56 -0500
Subject: [ExI] dementia
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy3WBeWkvQqb_LvvbEgkxhPCX8MZ_i8hCXxj47curFoH-Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYKNMn0QW1rBotDsNOL2R0ZbYjN0rudCf2ioJxbtU5KOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy3WBeWkvQqb_LvvbEgkxhPCX8MZ_i8hCXxj47curFoH-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbMLPJv82yCc0p7TS-_hd7rDEe0-xn+EKQ0ctN3aX-PoQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jun 13, 2021 at 8:41 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> It is interesting how some elderly make it to their nineties and beyond in
> good shape due to being blessed with a genetic hardiness that others lack.
> We need to figure out how we can replicate their condition so that everyone
> can be so fortunate.
>
> John
>

Do we really want that?  People like me?  I have been retired now for 24
years and have contributed basically nothing to society.  Do we really want
a lot of elderly people who live 50, 60 years beyond retirement?  bill w

>
> On Sat, May 29, 2021 at 8:40 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> About 3.4 million people, or 13.9 *percent* of the population age 71 and
>> *older*, have some form of *dementia*, the study found. As expected, the
>> prevalence of *dementia* increased dramatically with age, from five
>> *percent* of those aged 71 to 79 to 37.4 *percent* of those age 90 and
>> *older*.
>>
>> How about them 90 year olds?  Almost 2/3rds functioning well.  Of course
>> one does not get to be 90 without being in good health, as a general rule.
>> Surely the percentages would be higher if those with simple cognitive
>> decline, such as mild memory problems were included.  (I am assuming that
>> 'dementia' does not include those.)
>>
>> bill w
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From lostmyelectron at protonmail.com  Sun Jun 13 16:01:07 2021
From: lostmyelectron at protonmail.com (Gabe Waggoner)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2021 16:01:07 +0000
Subject: [ExI] dementia
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbMLPJv82yCc0p7TS-_hd7rDEe0-xn+EKQ0ctN3aX-PoQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYKNMn0QW1rBotDsNOL2R0ZbYjN0rudCf2ioJxbtU5KOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy3WBeWkvQqb_LvvbEgkxhPCX8MZ_i8hCXxj47curFoH-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbMLPJv82yCc0p7TS-_hd7rDEe0-xn+EKQ0ctN3aX-PoQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <_X-jwsggCKtLoK402rGdqOvgtwBsZdjWycPXXZ9d6a7BJ4ls9YpmqMIeg5Pomh_hKpMMFGG6ZMCyPjp0RQmd2cObNkp8RIopLS3l6a92-jk=@protonmail.com>

??????? Original Message ???????
On Sunday, June 13th, 2021 at 3:32 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
On Sun, Jun 13, 2021 at 8:41 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>> It is interesting how some elderly make it to their nineties and beyond in good shape due to being blessed with a genetic hardiness that others lack. We need to figure out how we can replicate their condition so that everyone can be so fortunate.
>>
>> John
>
> Do we really want that? People like me? I have been retired now for 24 years and have contributed basically nothing to society. Do we really want a lot of elderly people who live 50, 60 years beyond retirement? bill w

An excellent book covering that very topic, among others, is Lifespan: Why We Age?And Why We Don't Have To, by David Sinclair (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/43723901-lifespan). He goes into detail about how such a society might look and how it could operate (from several perspectives). I just finished the book a couple of weeks ago, and as I read it I was thinking of ExI members.

From my brief review of it: Absolutely stellar, filled with the promise of science and technology to save us from ourselves. It's remarkably balanced in its views, thoroughly addressing objections and being careful to consider alternative viewpoints. Required reading not only for futurists but also for people who want to extend their life in terms of quality, not just quantity. Offers perspectives from science, medicine, economics, ethics, and morality. Never once seems preachy or judgmental, and it appropriately and charitably refutes nonsensical viewpoints. Aging doesn't have to be "just the way it goes." Pristinely written and well edited, too?an endangered species in modern publishing.

Through well-reasoned and evidence-based arguments (the citations alone are worth it), the book persuaded me to start taking metformin and NMN (and has me considering dropping some of my supplement stack). And though Sinclair doesn't do calorie restriction himself (says it's too hard for him), he discusses the merits, and I've started 16:8 fasting as well.

Gabe
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Jun 13 16:40:43 2021
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2021 17:40:43 +0100
Subject: [ExI] dementia
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy3WBeWkvQqb_LvvbEgkxhPCX8MZ_i8hCXxj47curFoH-Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYKNMn0QW1rBotDsNOL2R0ZbYjN0rudCf2ioJxbtU5KOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy3WBeWkvQqb_LvvbEgkxhPCX8MZ_i8hCXxj47curFoH-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhNeS4f7h1Ubz0FdpoOEvYL_grRjjvkwhQ64z2ZCoYVTQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 13 Jun 2021 at 14:42, John Grigg via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> It is interesting how some elderly make it to their nineties and beyond in good shape due to being blessed with a genetic hardiness that others lack. We need to figure out how we can replicate their condition so that everyone can be so fortunate.
>
> John
> _______________________________________________


One of the big problems for the elderly today is loneliness.
Quote:
Older people are more likely to live alone in the United States than
in most other places in the world. Nearly thirty per cent of Americans
over sixty-five live by themselves, most of them women.
------------
Here is another article about robot pets / companions, this time from
the New Yorker. It is a long read, but I found it fascinating.

<https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/05/31/what-robots-can-and-cant-do-for-the-old-and-lonely>

There are now thousands of these 'pets' being supplied to the elderly
in America. And they are continually improving and becoming more
helpful.
One comment I thought significant was -
Producers of the latest companion robots don?t seem to care much about
achieving Turing test-level authenticity. For a robot to win the
affinity of a human, it doesn?t have to seem real; real enough will
do. Researchers have found that humans will naturally attribute agency
to machines?and, in turn, qualities like ?intention? and ?caring.?
------------

What comes across is that these pets make an incredible improvement in
the lives of their owners. They have to keep reminding themselves that
the pet is not 'real'. But they still love them.  That's wonderful!


BillK


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Jun 13 20:16:33 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2021 15:16:33 -0500
Subject: [ExI] really worth sharing
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNT6+nR6Lm5b1Ri0_Y5rgjcU1QTbijDsmwKoJYhtZwpGuA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaGwwrjdGLP628EVTG1LkegAZ=deTDREuXk+U1ToHqK3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT6+nR6Lm5b1Ri0_Y5rgjcU1QTbijDsmwKoJYhtZwpGuA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYv6q_9zg9Je1pRf86pwsKwjqhExSBJGuz8HnMsRDa0ag@mail.gmail.com>

Pictures I saw on Quora.  I have a new Chromebook and the odds of a virus
are small.  Well worth your look.  (found this unsent in my Drafts -
sorry)   bill w

On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 12:50 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> What's the content?  Just so we know this isn't malware spam from some
> virus on your computer.
>
> On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 10:41 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> https://qr.ae/pGRE6w
>>
>> bill w
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Jun 13 22:36:22 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2021 15:36:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] dementia
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbMLPJv82yCc0p7TS-_hd7rDEe0-xn+EKQ0ctN3aX-PoQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYKNMn0QW1rBotDsNOL2R0ZbYjN0rudCf2ioJxbtU5KOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy3WBeWkvQqb_LvvbEgkxhPCX8MZ_i8hCXxj47curFoH-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbMLPJv82yCc0p7TS-_hd7rDEe0-xn+EKQ0ctN3aX-PoQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009201d760a4$8a285100$9e78f300$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat



 

>?Do we really want that?  People like me?

 

Ja Billw, we really want that.  People like you.

 

 

>?I have been retired now for 24 years and have contributed basically nothing to society?

 

On the contrary sir, very much on the contrary..

 

>?Do we really want a lot of elderly people who live 50, 60 years beyond retirement?  bill w

 

We do.  One errs in believing our real contribution to society is in the years in which society paid us for those contributions.  During those years however, we are far too busy contributing to society to contribute to society.

 

May our young people come to understand what I meant with that comment.

 

spike

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Jun 13 22:52:15 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2021 17:52:15 -0500
Subject: [ExI] dementia
In-Reply-To: <009201d760a4$8a285100$9e78f300$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYKNMn0QW1rBotDsNOL2R0ZbYjN0rudCf2ioJxbtU5KOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy3WBeWkvQqb_LvvbEgkxhPCX8MZ_i8hCXxj47curFoH-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbMLPJv82yCc0p7TS-_hd7rDEe0-xn+EKQ0ctN3aX-PoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <009201d760a4$8a285100$9e78f300$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZLuyhXsbcrzLP6bYBeT+RUsEg2qM43YJ=2Tu8a+Bq8kg@mail.gmail.com>

Well, Spike, you are my role model:  a person who jumps in and does things
with schools, scout groups, and the like.  I am basically helping two young
females with severe learning disabilities.  But that's all.  I do try to
share some of my wit and 'wisdom' on Quora and do have hundreds of
followers, so I guess saying that I contribute nothing is wrong.  I suppose
I said that because of the severe limitations my health places on me.  I
wish I could do more for others and for myself as well.  But you have to
deal with the cards you are dealt and I am satisfied with that (not exactly
happy but not depressed either).  I was just asked a question on quora and
here is part of my answer:

https://www.treehugger.com/why-were-happier-when-were-older-4861071#:~:text=A%20recent%20study%20found%20a,the%20most%20unhappy%20in%20life.&text=%E2%80%9CPeople%20who%20were%20in%20older,perceived%20stress%20than%20younger%20respondents.%E2%80%9D

(I couldn't find a way to shorten that link)  bill w

On Sun, Jun 13, 2021 at 5:38 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>
>
>
> >?Do we really want that?  People like me?
>
>
>
> Ja Billw, we really want that.  People like you.
>
>
>
>
>
> >?I have been retired now for 24 years and have contributed basically
> nothing to society?
>
>
>
> On the contrary sir, very much on the contrary..
>
>
>
> >?Do we really want a lot of elderly people who live 50, 60 years beyond
> retirement?  bill w
>
>
>
> We do.  One errs in believing our real contribution to society is in the
> years in which society paid us for those contributions.  During those years
> however, we are far too busy contributing to society to contribute to
> society.
>
>
>
> May our young people come to understand what I meant with that comment.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Jun 13 23:17:18 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2021 16:17:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] dementia
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZLuyhXsbcrzLP6bYBeT+RUsEg2qM43YJ=2Tu8a+Bq8kg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYKNMn0QW1rBotDsNOL2R0ZbYjN0rudCf2ioJxbtU5KOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy3WBeWkvQqb_LvvbEgkxhPCX8MZ_i8hCXxj47curFoH-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbMLPJv82yCc0p7TS-_hd7rDEe0-xn+EKQ0ctN3aX-PoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <009201d760a4$8a285100$9e78f300$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZLuyhXsbcrzLP6bYBeT+RUsEg2qM43YJ=2Tu8a+Bq8kg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00bf01d760aa$41f04090$c5d0c1b0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2021 3:52 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] dementia

 

Well, Spike, you are my role model:  a person who jumps in and does things with schools, scout groups, and the like?

 

You are too kind, sir.  

 

I have a role model: Sal Khan.  I admire the hell outta that guy.

 

To be an effective role model, one needs a lot of face time as well as doing the right thing always.  So one can think of it as the right-thing coefficient (call it C sub rt) and the face time coefficient (C sub ft) then the product describes a factor in the equation of the efficacy as a role model.

 

Sal beats me every time in doing the right thing, HOWEVER!... I beat that lad like a red-headed step child in face time.  I am ALWAYS right here with me.  So? I am my own role model.  I then just do whatever the hell I do, then I emulate myself at every opportunity.  It works!  So that?s how I end up doing the school stuff.  I saw me doing it, thought that was cool, so I wanted to do it too.  So I did.  And so on.

 

>?  I was just asked a question on quora and here is part of my answer:

 

https://www.treehugger.com/why-were-happier-when-were-older-4861071#:~:text=A%20recent%20study%20found%20a,the%20most%20unhappy%20in%20life. <https://www.treehugger.com/why-were-happier-when-were-older-4861071#:~:text=A%20recent%20study%20found%20a,the%20most%20unhappy%20in%20life.&text=%E2%80%9CPeople%20who%20were%20in%20older,perceived%20stress%20than%20younger%20respondents.%E2%80%9D> &text=%E2%80%9CPeople%20who%20were%20in%20older,perceived%20stress%20than%20younger%20respondents.%E2%80%9D

 

>?  bill w

 

Of course.  Look at us.  Alla yas, look at the times in which we live.  Last week I rented a car which can very nearly DRIVE ITSELF and note the modifier ?very nearly.?  I didn?t write about it because I don?t want every Exi yahoo going and renting one to see if they really can drive themselves, but would rather leave it at saying they kinda can, under some ideal circumstances.  Is that cool or what?

 

Regarding your Quora comment: I am WAAAY happier now than I was 20 yrs ago.

 

Look at the times we live: the new space observatories, science instruments DETECTING GRAVITY WAVES on a regular basis, oh what a time to be alive, Billw, and you and I have the privilege to see it all happen, me lad.  We are old enough to remember before we had all this cool stuff, so we know how cool it all is.

 

spike

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From stathisp at gmail.com  Sun Jun 13 23:52:05 2021
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 09:52:05 +1000
Subject: [ExI] dementia
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZLuyhXsbcrzLP6bYBeT+RUsEg2qM43YJ=2Tu8a+Bq8kg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYKNMn0QW1rBotDsNOL2R0ZbYjN0rudCf2ioJxbtU5KOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy3WBeWkvQqb_LvvbEgkxhPCX8MZ_i8hCXxj47curFoH-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbMLPJv82yCc0p7TS-_hd7rDEe0-xn+EKQ0ctN3aX-PoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <009201d760a4$8a285100$9e78f300$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZLuyhXsbcrzLP6bYBeT+RUsEg2qM43YJ=2Tu8a+Bq8kg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH=2ypVWJHUFpKqDhdo5tDC-nvorwTJ9NnQvgkdjVOphtO2bKw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 14 Jun 2021 at 08:53, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Well, Spike, you are my role model:  a person who jumps in and does things
> with schools, scout groups, and the like.  I am basically helping two young
> females with severe learning disabilities.  But that's all.  I do try to
> share some of my wit and 'wisdom' on Quora and do have hundreds of
> followers, so I guess saying that I contribute nothing is wrong.  I suppose
> I said that because of the severe limitations my health places on me.  I
> wish I could do more for others and for myself as well.  But you have to
> deal with the cards you are dealt and I am satisfied with that (not exactly
> happy but not depressed either).  I was just asked a question on quora and
> here is part of my answer:
>
>
> https://www.treehugger.com/why-were-happier-when-were-older-4861071#:~:text=A%20recent%20study%20found%20a,the%20most%20unhappy%20in%20life.&text=%E2%80%9CPeople%20who%20were%20in%20older,perceived%20stress%20than%20younger%20respondents.%E2%80%9D
>
> (I couldn't find a way to shorten that link)  bill w
>

What name do you go by on Quora?

On Sun, Jun 13, 2021 at 5:38 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
>> Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>>
>>
>>
>> >?Do we really want that?  People like me?
>>
>>
>>
>> Ja Billw, we really want that.  People like you.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >?I have been retired now for 24 years and have contributed basically
>> nothing to society?
>>
>>
>>
>> On the contrary sir, very much on the contrary..
>>
>>
>>
>> >?Do we really want a lot of elderly people who live 50, 60 years beyond
>> retirement?  bill w
>>
>>
>>
>> We do.  One errs in believing our real contribution to society is in the
>> years in which society paid us for those contributions.  During those years
>> however, we are far too busy contributing to society to contribute to
>> society.
>>
>>
>>
>> May our young people come to understand what I meant with that comment.
>>
>>
>>
>> spike
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-- 
Stathis Papaioannou
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Jun 13 23:59:54 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2021 18:59:54 -0500
Subject: [ExI] dementia
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypVWJHUFpKqDhdo5tDC-nvorwTJ9NnQvgkdjVOphtO2bKw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYKNMn0QW1rBotDsNOL2R0ZbYjN0rudCf2ioJxbtU5KOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy3WBeWkvQqb_LvvbEgkxhPCX8MZ_i8hCXxj47curFoH-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbMLPJv82yCc0p7TS-_hd7rDEe0-xn+EKQ0ctN3aX-PoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <009201d760a4$8a285100$9e78f300$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZLuyhXsbcrzLP6bYBeT+RUsEg2qM43YJ=2Tu8a+Bq8kg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypVWJHUFpKqDhdo5tDC-nvorwTJ9NnQvgkdjVOphtO2bKw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZzniNfgf+ROz4Rih-ikkvW64GxbgJSJRV_kyt00EWUgQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Quora I go by Bill Wallace - bill w

On Sun, Jun 13, 2021 at 6:54 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, 14 Jun 2021 at 08:53, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Well, Spike, you are my role model:  a person who jumps in and does
>> things with schools, scout groups, and the like.  I am basically helping
>> two young females with severe learning disabilities.  But that's all.  I do
>> try to share some of my wit and 'wisdom' on Quora and do have hundreds of
>> followers, so I guess saying that I contribute nothing is wrong.  I suppose
>> I said that because of the severe limitations my health places on me.  I
>> wish I could do more for others and for myself as well.  But you have to
>> deal with the cards you are dealt and I am satisfied with that (not exactly
>> happy but not depressed either).  I was just asked a question on quora and
>> here is part of my answer:
>>
>>
>> https://www.treehugger.com/why-were-happier-when-were-older-4861071#:~:text=A%20recent%20study%20found%20a,the%20most%20unhappy%20in%20life.&text=%E2%80%9CPeople%20who%20were%20in%20older,perceived%20stress%20than%20younger%20respondents.%E2%80%9D
>>
>> (I couldn't find a way to shorten that link)  bill w
>>
>
> What name do you go by on Quora?
>
> On Sun, Jun 13, 2021 at 5:38 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On
>>> Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> >?Do we really want that?  People like me?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ja Billw, we really want that.  People like you.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> >?I have been retired now for 24 years and have contributed basically
>>> nothing to society?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On the contrary sir, very much on the contrary..
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> >?Do we really want a lot of elderly people who live 50, 60 years
>>> beyond retirement?  bill w
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We do.  One errs in believing our real contribution to society is in the
>>> years in which society paid us for those contributions.  During those years
>>> however, we are far too busy contributing to society to contribute to
>>> society.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> May our young people come to understand what I meant with that comment.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> spike
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> --
> Stathis Papaioannou
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Jun 14 00:20:31 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2021 17:20:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] dementia
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZzniNfgf+ROz4Rih-ikkvW64GxbgJSJRV_kyt00EWUgQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYKNMn0QW1rBotDsNOL2R0ZbYjN0rudCf2ioJxbtU5KOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy3WBeWkvQqb_LvvbEgkxhPCX8MZ_i8hCXxj47curFoH-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbMLPJv82yCc0p7TS-_hd7rDEe0-xn+EKQ0ctN3aX-PoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <009201d760a4$8a285100$9e78f300$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZLuyhXsbcrzLP6bYBeT+RUsEg2qM43YJ=2Tu8a+Bq8kg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypVWJHUFpKqDhdo5tDC-nvorwTJ9NnQvgkdjVOphtO2bKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZzniNfgf+ROz4Rih-ikkvW64GxbgJSJRV_kyt00EWUgQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002801d760b3$16c01ae0$444050a0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] dementia

 

On Quora I go by Bill Wallace - bill w

 

 

Ah, so it was a TRICK!  He went there as HIMSELF!  No one does that.  Perfect disguise.

 

spike

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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Mon Jun 14 01:10:19 2021
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2021 18:10:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] dementia
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypVWJHUFpKqDhdo5tDC-nvorwTJ9NnQvgkdjVOphtO2bKw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH=2ypVWJHUFpKqDhdo5tDC-nvorwTJ9NnQvgkdjVOphtO2bKw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <804D13EC-22E5-4267-A91B-424C9868FFB7@gmail.com>

On Jun 13, 2021, at 4:54 PM, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> On Mon, 14 Jun 2021 at 08:53, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> Well, Spike, you are my role model:  a person who jumps in and does things with schools, scout groups, and the like.  I am basically helping two young females with severe learning disabilities.  But that's all.  I do try to share some of my wit and 'wisdom' on Quora and do have hundreds of followers, so I guess saying that I contribute nothing is wrong.  I suppose I said that because of the severe limitations my health places on me.  I wish I could do more for others and for myself as well.  But you have to deal with the cards you are dealt and I am satisfied with that (not exactly happy but not depressed either).  I was just asked a question on quora and here is part of my answer:
>> 
>> https://www.treehugger.com/why-were-happier-when-were-older-4861071#:~:text=A%20recent%20study%20found%20a,the%20most%20unhappy%20in%20life.&text=%E2%80%9CPeople%20who%20were%20in%20older,perceived%20stress%20than%20younger%20respondents.%E2%80%9D
>> 
>> (I couldn't find a way to shorten that link)  bill w
> 
> What name do you go by on Quora?

In case anyone?s interested, I go by Dan Ust on Quora. Not much content attached to my name there. I?m more a consumer than a participant. ;)

Regards,

Dan
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Jun 14 01:29:58 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2021 20:29:58 -0500
Subject: [ExI] eat fish or die!
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbZfix+Ka_tjH046_VOLGdma92F5jaNjhvEskX8_Zs9Ag@mail.gmail.com>

https://scitechdaily.com/an-omega-3-thats-poison-for-cancer-tumors/

bill w
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From max at maxmore.com  Mon Jun 14 06:21:32 2021
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 06:21:32 +0000
Subject: [ExI] donor head
In-Reply-To: <001101d7605d$c49827d0$4dc87770$@rainier66.com>
References: <002a01d73c58$ea40e8b0$bec2ba10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-ontjs75NP+cjgb3dZQE9GfSPXhePxBHpCA3PEYPdKADP+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <004e01d73c62$be218b90$3a64a2b0$@rainier66.com>
 <006c01d73c68$86bc6d40$943547c0$@rainier66.com>
 <b4f1522a-9c1d-333d-4289-73bdbd9a37b8@pobox.com>
 <CAGSKFy3AHTdftvSFadmnjZApVq-PEHxasoKU5at9STcjD-DNMw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <001101d7605d$c49827d0$4dc87770$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <BYAPR06MB5239AE5120116DB57FAC3545A0319@BYAPR06MB5239.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>

The part at the end about Alcor (after nice things said earlier) is completely false. I posted a quick response:

Alcor is NOT run by Humanity Plus. There is no organizational connection. Alcor is run by a its board of directors. Also, you're "some customers claim" should be: "One former employee who tried to self stolen photos and who admitted to lying in his book), claims..."

It makes me question the veracity of the rest of the story. There's a lot I hadn't heard. But it seemed to reflect several things that I have heard more directly -- the Darwin hard drive-copying incident and the recent split among them. This story has the potential to do a lot of damage to cryonics.

Those damn Russian Lenin wannabes!

--Max

________________________________
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> on behalf of spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2021 7:09 AM
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] donor head




>?Spike, I sure hope you get signed up for cryonics. The people of the future would love your company! And they would really enjoy seeing you oohing and ahhing at all of their astonishing technology. That's why they will bring cryonauts back, so that they can show off! Lol  : )       John









Thanks John.



I was with a group of college friends a couple weeks ago.  The discussion came up.  I was surprised at how mainstream the idea has become.



spike


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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Mon Jun 14 06:22:20 2021
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 02:22:20 -0400
Subject: [ExI] yelling fire
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2dObFVctySjxCkVsYAA=_mqktO-c5zzBQtkSb+-A59NvQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM5aL2dObFVctySjxCkVsYAA=_mqktO-c5zzBQtkSb+-A59NvQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <84080432-E208-4863-95BF-6411BCF23ECB@gmail.com>

Charles Spurgeon dealt with a similar incident early in his ministry: 

?Emotional Trial by ?Fire!?
The service was underway when, during Spurgeon?s prayer, several malicious troublemakers shouted, ?Fire! The galleries are giving way! The place is falling!? even though there was no fire.

In the subsequent panic, Spurgeon attempted to quell the commotion, but seven people were trampled to death and twenty-eight were hospitalized with numerous serious injuries. ?


SR Ballard

> On Apr 9, 2021, at 12:13 PM, Dave Sill via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> ?
>> On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 11:09 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>  
>> 
>> I heard an expression this week that reminds me of my cheerfully misspent childhood: You can?t yell fire in a crowded theatre.  I always assumed it true.  But? is it?  I understand it is a reference to the limits of free speech.  It makes reference to something the old timers all understood but moderns do not. 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> In the old days, theatres were made of wood and were full of flammables.  They had no sprinkler systems, no smoke detectors, no fire alarms, no extinguishers, grossly insufficient emergency exits.  Proles would trample each other in panic trying to get out if anyone screamed fire. 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> What would happen if someone did that now?  Answer: probably nothing.  I wouldn?t get out of my seat.  Any building that meets modern fire code doesn?t really burn worth a worry.  The carpet is fire suppressed, drywall doesn?t burn at all, there are smoke detectors everywhere.  If someone started screaming fire, the bouncer would likely throw the bum out, but I doubt there would be legal consequences.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Conclusion: you can yell fire in a crowded theatre.
>> 
> 
> See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shouting_fire_in_a_crowded_theater
> 
> Doing that did cause a significant number of deaths a hundred or more years ago. As a justification for not allowing anti-draft pamphlets to be distributed, it's not such a great argument.
> 
> -Dave
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Mon Jun 14 06:36:56 2021
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 02:36:56 -0400
Subject: [ExI] hysterical blindness / conversion disorders
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFg5A-tKLBMuGud+mOyLNgsX=uWhLSpqnY1B9kknfHaQGw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFg5A-tKLBMuGud+mOyLNgsX=uWhLSpqnY1B9kknfHaQGw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9BC71200-5202-452E-860D-F4E292827B85@gmail.com>

I was under the impression that hysterical blindness (which my 92 yo grandpa has had since 16) is not ?faking?.  For reference he got caught in a peanut thrasher for 3 days with the blade an inch or so away from his eye, then slipped into a 16 day coma upon his rescue. 

He legitimately believes he cannot see anything out of that eye, and if you do something on that side he says he doesn?t know what you did. But sudden movements on that side startle him.

Has he just been playing pretend for 76 years? (Honest Question)

SR Ballard

> On Apr 24, 2021, at 11:46 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> ?
> 
>> On Thu, Apr 22, 2021 at 8:06 PM William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Seen any hysterical paralysis or blindness, Rafal?  Have you learned to tell the lies by their body language or voice?  
>> 
> 
> ### I see hysterical paralysis all the time (now it's politically incorrect to use the gender-related term "hysteria", have to say "conversion"). It's often easy pick up some telltale signs on examination, most fakers are dumb and they make a lot of mistakes. And then there is the magnet of truth, the MRI machine that shows the absence of stroke and other lesions. Sometimes there is a question of whether the patient has a migraine aura, which is a stroke mimic but with attentive examination it is often possible to tell aura from faking.
> 
> I don't see psychogenic blindness often. There are a couple neat tricks to tell it apart from organic blindness, like testing for optokinetic nystagmus and visual threat. With the most persistent fakers you can do visual evoked potentials on EEG.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From stathisp at gmail.com  Mon Jun 14 08:53:31 2021
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 18:53:31 +1000
Subject: [ExI] hysterical blindness / conversion disorders
In-Reply-To: <9BC71200-5202-452E-860D-F4E292827B85@gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFg5A-tKLBMuGud+mOyLNgsX=uWhLSpqnY1B9kknfHaQGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9BC71200-5202-452E-860D-F4E292827B85@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH=2ypXY_Uw-xCSVNUF8AbhzZgwUYAK3y6jmUHXNh7bRt20MCA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 14 Jun 2021 at 16:38, SR Ballard via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I was under the impression that hysterical blindness (which my 92 yo
> grandpa has had since 16) is not ?faking?.  For reference he got caught in
> a peanut thrasher for 3 days with the blade an inch or so away from his
> eye, then slipped into a 16 day coma upon his rescue.
>
> He legitimately believes he cannot see anything out of that eye, and if
> you do something on that side he says he doesn?t know what you did. But
> sudden movements on that side startle him.
>
> Has he just been playing pretend for 76 years? (Honest Question)
>

Hysterical symptoms, or conversion disorder in the DSM-5, is different from
feigning, where the patient knows the symptoms are not real and is doing it
for some perceived gain. Of course, it is never certain if the patient is,
in fact, feigning.


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou

<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
Virus-free.
www.avast.com
<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
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From avant at sollegro.com  Mon Jun 14 11:11:16 2021
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 04:11:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Great Culling
Message-ID: <20210614041116.Horde.1jq5OnkMk7LZ9Ow0ok5rRrv@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>


Quoting Rafal Smigrodzki:

> ### A couple of years ago I hypothesized on this list that the Yamnaya
> culture triggered a phase transition starting about 10k years ago, by first
> developing superior war technologies that allowed long-range warfare, which
> gave the Yamnaya males the ability to slaughter other males and take their
> women. Since increased geographical distance between the winner males and
> the captive females optimized their mating distance, the resulting
> offspring were phenotypically superior to parental populations, allowing
> them to further expand by slaughtering ever more men and taking ever more
> genetically distant females, eventually leading to their overrunning almost
> all of Europe, Middle East, and India. Similar but smaller expansion/phase
> transition waves occurred also in other parts of Asia. The present article
> does not show anything dramatically new but it does provide a comprehensive
> view of this transition across the world.

So I was digging around in the article's supplemental data and their  
best graph is on page 5 here:

https://genome.cshlp.org/content/suppl/2015/02/18/gr.186684.114.DC1/Supplemental_Figures.pdf

I took that graph and added data points consisting the earliest known  
domestication of various species color coded to match the culture they  
first arose in and attached it to this email.

  It turns out you were exactly right for Central Asia. The moment  
they domesticated horses, the diversity of Y-chromosomes crashed. Your  
explanation of the superiority of mounted archery makes a lot of sense  
here and Yamnaya culture did originate on the central steppes of Asia.

> Interestingly Africa was least affected by the transition. No horses, no
> big wars?

Horses were domesticated about 5500 years ago in central Asia which  
did correspond to the culling of Central Asia (cyan) and although for  
some reason the culling began in Europe about 1000 years earlier in  
Europe (yellow). Why? It could be because the only animal domesticated  
at the time by Europeans were bees. So they had to have domestic  
animals culturally imported so to speak. Perhaps in a situation  
similar to that of Africa.

The less affectedness of Africa might be indicative that nothing was  
apparently domesticated there so it had to wait for all the livestock  
to be imported. Therefore there seems to multiple rounds of less  
severe culling presumably as domesticated animals were imported from  
elsewhere.

> So no, I don't think this was an alien breeding plan but rather some
> enterprising nomads figuring out how to fight from horseback in formation
> using bow and arrows in superior numbers to attack the men of small
> isolated tribes without taking many losses so as to keep going at it for
> thousands of years, until they ran out of less organized men to kill. In
> other words, this Great Culling of Men was due to the invention of
> organized war run by professional warriors.

Ok, so for Central Asia, a case can clearly be made for military  
superiority afforded by horse-mounted warriors causing the culling of  
less organized males. But that does not explain how the domestication  
of cattle by the Near Easterners and Southern Asians, precipitated the  
culling of those cultures as shown on the attached figure.

In fact, all but three of the geographic region/culture on the graph  
experienced the Culling almost immediately after domesticating a  
specific animal. The East and South East Asians were culled right  
after they domesticated chickens and pigs. The Andean people in South  
America experienced the Culling right after they domesticated the  
llama and the alpaca. Chickens, pigs, and llamas have no obvious use  
in warfare, yet nonetheless presaged the Culling in their respective  
cultures.

At this point, I am thinking along the line of zoonotic viruses doing  
the actual Culling. It would not spread person to person and only  
affect the people directly handling the animals who were probably all  
men.

Stuart LaForge



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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Jun 14 12:15:35 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 20:15:35 +0800
Subject: [ExI] really worth sharing
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYv6q_9zg9Je1pRf86pwsKwjqhExSBJGuz8HnMsRDa0ag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaGwwrjdGLP628EVTG1LkegAZ=deTDREuXk+U1ToHqK3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT6+nR6Lm5b1Ri0_Y5rgjcU1QTbijDsmwKoJYhtZwpGuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYv6q_9zg9Je1pRf86pwsKwjqhExSBJGuz8HnMsRDa0ag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1ge3Aq0NzcLEGs1z4A0e-JWRzYRA50XxAQqCmvdGKwjA@mail.gmail.com>

I was quite impressed by the haircut on the up-ended motorcycle! And why
shouldn't kids use a swingset along with their giant pet Boa Constrictor...
Lol But such "life is strange" pics are often best when from Russia. I am
hooked on Russian dashcam footage, with bears as passengers in compact
cars, and main battle tanks going through car washes...

John

On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 4:19 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Pictures I saw on Quora.  I have a new Chromebook and the odds of a virus
> are small.  Well worth your look.  (found this unsent in my Drafts -
> sorry)   bill w
>
> On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 12:50 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> What's the content?  Just so we know this isn't malware spam from some
>> virus on your computer.
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 10:41 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> https://qr.ae/pGRE6w
>>>
>>> bill w
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Jun 14 12:20:42 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 20:20:42 +0800
Subject: [ExI] What font size should we use here?
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy0Lk8+GH3fd+vtmYCUYJZK-p2OL48PDL6NZ_RcBjQOdHQ@mail.gmail.com>

I use a gmail account, and usually post with the font setting as either
"normal" or "large." But should I only do large, considering many of us
have aging eyes? Or should I just use normal, as standard practice? What
are the views here about it?

John
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From sparge at gmail.com  Mon Jun 14 12:53:01 2021
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 08:53:01 -0400
Subject: [ExI] What font size should we use here?
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy0Lk8+GH3fd+vtmYCUYJZK-p2OL48PDL6NZ_RcBjQOdHQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy0Lk8+GH3fd+vtmYCUYJZK-p2OL48PDL6NZ_RcBjQOdHQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fZwiS2M+mkUswhxL4wrQH-YDOsccaUi8op7-p1MgeJbw@mail.gmail.com>

Recipients should scale their browser font as necessary.

-Dave

On Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 8:16 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I use a gmail account, and usually post with the font setting as either
> "normal" or "large." But should I only do large, considering many of us
> have aging eyes? Or should I just use normal, as standard practice? What
> are the views here about it?
>
> John
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From sparge at gmail.com  Mon Jun 14 14:25:25 2021
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 10:25:25 -0400
Subject: [ExI] dementia
In-Reply-To: <_X-jwsggCKtLoK402rGdqOvgtwBsZdjWycPXXZ9d6a7BJ4ls9YpmqMIeg5Pomh_hKpMMFGG6ZMCyPjp0RQmd2cObNkp8RIopLS3l6a92-jk=@protonmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYKNMn0QW1rBotDsNOL2R0ZbYjN0rudCf2ioJxbtU5KOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy3WBeWkvQqb_LvvbEgkxhPCX8MZ_i8hCXxj47curFoH-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbMLPJv82yCc0p7TS-_hd7rDEe0-xn+EKQ0ctN3aX-PoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <_X-jwsggCKtLoK402rGdqOvgtwBsZdjWycPXXZ9d6a7BJ4ls9YpmqMIeg5Pomh_hKpMMFGG6ZMCyPjp0RQmd2cObNkp8RIopLS3l6a92-jk=@protonmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fP7pZ+OXgST+uf4RD0aUxy+u9ddvbgp8Zw0YS3q-p9Yw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jun 13, 2021 at 12:03 PM Gabe Waggoner via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> An excellent book covering that very topic, among others, is *Lifespan:
> Why We Age?And Why We Don't Have To*, by David Sinclair (
> https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/43723901-lifespan).
>

It may be a great book but the implication in the title that aging is
somehow optional or even thoroughly understood is so absurd that I can't
get past it.

-Dave
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From lostmyelectron at protonmail.com  Mon Jun 14 14:44:58 2021
From: lostmyelectron at protonmail.com (Gabe Waggoner)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 14:44:58 +0000
Subject: [ExI] dementia
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2fP7pZ+OXgST+uf4RD0aUxy+u9ddvbgp8Zw0YS3q-p9Yw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYKNMn0QW1rBotDsNOL2R0ZbYjN0rudCf2ioJxbtU5KOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy3WBeWkvQqb_LvvbEgkxhPCX8MZ_i8hCXxj47curFoH-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbMLPJv82yCc0p7TS-_hd7rDEe0-xn+EKQ0ctN3aX-PoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <_X-jwsggCKtLoK402rGdqOvgtwBsZdjWycPXXZ9d6a7BJ4ls9YpmqMIeg5Pomh_hKpMMFGG6ZMCyPjp0RQmd2cObNkp8RIopLS3l6a92-jk=@protonmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fP7pZ+OXgST+uf4RD0aUxy+u9ddvbgp8Zw0YS3q-p9Yw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <lgy5OPViShesArby353FIsTDjS2fpeROLQoOwE0fgugegMs_xBShHUPu_M6YGc-s8utQ5gkP_gM4cmzoi1vExNXUlhXEjHie3Wr8vpNobLo=@protonmail.com>

??????? Original Message ???????
On Monday, June 14th, 2021 at 2:25 PM, Dave Sill via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Sun, Jun 13, 2021 at 12:03 PM Gabe Waggoner via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> An excellent book covering that very topic, among others, is Lifespan: Why We Age?And Why We Don't Have To, by David Sinclair (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/43723901-lifespan).
>
> It may be a great book but the implication in the title that aging is somehow optional or even thoroughly understood is so absurd that I can't get past it.
>
> -Dave

Hi, Dave,

I agree completely. The title is definitely an attention-grabbing marketing ploy for an optimistic, largely speculative text.

Till later,
Gabe

Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com/) Secure Email.
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From bronto at pobox.com  Mon Jun 14 15:00:12 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 08:00:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] What font size should we use here?
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy0Lk8+GH3fd+vtmYCUYJZK-p2OL48PDL6NZ_RcBjQOdHQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy0Lk8+GH3fd+vtmYCUYJZK-p2OL48PDL6NZ_RcBjQOdHQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4bb7862e-7dc4-ef1e-5045-b763c9b40e91@pobox.com>

On 2021-6-14 05:20, John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote:
> I use a gmail account, and usually post with the font setting as either 
> "normal" or "large." But should I only do large, considering many of us 
> have aging eyes? Or should I just use normal, as standard practice? What 
> are the views here about it?

Pretty sure there's no size code in my mail.  (As god intended.)

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org

From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Jun 14 15:05:34 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 08:05:34 -0700
Subject: [ExI] What font size should we use here?
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2fZwiS2M+mkUswhxL4wrQH-YDOsccaUi8op7-p1MgeJbw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy0Lk8+GH3fd+vtmYCUYJZK-p2OL48PDL6NZ_RcBjQOdHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fZwiS2M+mkUswhxL4wrQH-YDOsccaUi8op7-p1MgeJbw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQ+AcdzbWh44wqEQB78ikHf2jukC12HWgUZTp_F2b2D2Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 5:54 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Recipients should scale their browser font as necessary.
>

This, pretty much.  Ensuring proper display is ultimately the
responsibility of the one displaying, as different peoples' eyes have
different needs.  No one sender can know, let alone encode for, all
potential recipients.
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From ben at zaiboc.net  Mon Jun 14 17:06:17 2021
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 18:06:17 +0100
Subject: [ExI] dementia
In-Reply-To: <mailman.32.1623628349.14874.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.32.1623628349.14874.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <55d56135-ca26-ecfa-5144-115b4b8dbb2b@zaiboc.net>

On 14/06/2021 00:52, bill w wrote:
> https://www.treehugger.com/why-were-happier-when-were-older-4861071#:~:text=A%20recent%20study%20found%20a,the%20most%20unhappy%20in%20life.&text=%E2%80%9CPeople%20who%20were%20in%20older,perceived%20stress%20than%20younger%20respondents.%E2%80%9D 
> <https://www.treehugger.com/why-were-happier-when-were-older-4861071#:~:text=A%20recent%20study%20found%20a,the%20most%20unhappy%20in%20life.&text=%E2%80%9CPeople%20who%20were%20in%20older,perceived%20stress%20than%20younger%20respondents.%E2%80%9D>
>
> (I couldn't find a way to shorten that link)? bill w

https://www.treehugger.com/why-were-happier-when-were-older-4861071 
<https://www.treehugger.com/why-were-happier-when-were-older-4861071#:~:text=A%20recent%20study%20found%20a,the%20most%20unhappy%20in%20life.&text=%E2%80%9CPeople%20who%20were%20in%20older,perceived%20stress%20than%20younger%20respondents.%E2%80%9D>


These days, most links are about 20% actual url, 80% tracking tags. just 
omitting everything after the .html, or # or similar loses the tracking 
and keeps the actual link.

-- 
Ben Zaiboc

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From ben at zaiboc.net  Mon Jun 14 17:16:53 2021
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 18:16:53 +0100
Subject: [ExI] dementia
In-Reply-To: <mailman.32.1623628349.14874.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.32.1623628349.14874.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <63ca5370-2a52-c2bc-88c3-ab0b15e62aab@zaiboc.net>

On 14/06/2021 00:52, bill w wrote:
> Do we really want that?? People like me?? I have been retired now for 
> 24 years and have contributed basically nothing to society.? Do we 
> really want a lot?of elderly people who live 50, 60 years beyond 
> retirement?? bill w

Absolutely, we do.

People like you, and spike, and everyone else.

But no, we don't want a lot?of elderly people who only live 50, 60 years 
beyond retirement. We want a lot of ancient people who live 500, 600 and 
more years beyond when they would have worn out and died if nature was 
left to her cruel and arbitrary ways. We want those people to live 
healthier, fuller, wiser, more active, vigorous and just overall better 
lives than anyone alive now. We want people who can decide for 
themselves when, and if, to die, after they've contributed all they want 
to society and history.

That's certainly what I want, anyway.

-- 
Ben Zaiboc


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Jun 14 18:24:13 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 13:24:13 -0500
Subject: [ExI] dementia
In-Reply-To: <55d56135-ca26-ecfa-5144-115b4b8dbb2b@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.32.1623628349.14874.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <55d56135-ca26-ecfa-5144-115b4b8dbb2b@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEb_ggg1Hj7_0X1m2KtvfCbA4gRWtWzYc2rpMmn85LSmvw@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks.  And the ? too, right?   bill w

On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 12:08 PM Ben via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On 14/06/2021 00:52, bill w wrote:
>
>
> https://www.treehugger.com/why-were-happier-when-were-older-4861071#:~:text=A%20recent%20study%20found%20a,the%20most%20unhappy%20in%20life.&text=%E2%80%9CPeople%20who%20were%20in%20older,perceived%20stress%20than%20younger%20respondents.%E2%80%9D
>
> (I couldn't find a way to shorten that link)  bill w
>
>
> https://www.treehugger.com/why-were-happier-when-were-older-4861071
> <https://www.treehugger.com/why-were-happier-when-were-older-4861071#:~:text=A%20recent%20study%20found%20a,the%20most%20unhappy%20in%20life.&text=%E2%80%9CPeople%20who%20were%20in%20older,perceived%20stress%20than%20younger%20respondents.%E2%80%9D>
>
>
> These days, most links are about 20% actual url, 80% tracking tags. just
> omitting everything after the .html, or # or similar loses the tracking and
> keeps the actual link.
>
> --
> Ben Zaiboc
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Jun 14 19:17:20 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 12:17:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] dementia
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEb_ggg1Hj7_0X1m2KtvfCbA4gRWtWzYc2rpMmn85LSmvw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.32.1623628349.14874.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <55d56135-ca26-ecfa-5144-115b4b8dbb2b@zaiboc.net>
 <CAO+xQEb_ggg1Hj7_0X1m2KtvfCbA4gRWtWzYc2rpMmn85LSmvw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNT+88SsXmhDXP1uCtfQTtMphNTnkUm=Vaqrf5rSpn0V9g@mail.gmail.com>

If there's a # in the URL, generally that's a bookmark within the page, so
you can remove that and everything after that unless you are trying to call
attention to a specific section of the page.  This case is a good example
of that.

If there's a ? in the URL, the stuff after that is parameters.  Sometimes
you can remove the ? and everything after that, sometimes the page requires
some of those parameters to properly load.

Ben's advice about the .html is coincidental.  It's usually true because
the ? or # (or, rarely, another symbol showing something that can be
stripped out) usually comes right after .html if it is present, but it is
the ? or # (or other symbol) that matters.

On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 11:26 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Thanks.  And the ? too, right?   bill w
>
> On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 12:08 PM Ben via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> On 14/06/2021 00:52, bill w wrote:
>>
>>
>> https://www.treehugger.com/why-were-happier-when-were-older-4861071#:~:text=A%20recent%20study%20found%20a,the%20most%20unhappy%20in%20life.&text=%E2%80%9CPeople%20who%20were%20in%20older,perceived%20stress%20than%20younger%20respondents.%E2%80%9D
>>
>> (I couldn't find a way to shorten that link)  bill w
>>
>>
>> https://www.treehugger.com/why-were-happier-when-were-older-4861071
>> <https://www.treehugger.com/why-were-happier-when-were-older-4861071#:~:text=A%20recent%20study%20found%20a,the%20most%20unhappy%20in%20life.&text=%E2%80%9CPeople%20who%20were%20in%20older,perceived%20stress%20than%20younger%20respondents.%E2%80%9D>
>>
>>
>> These days, most links are about 20% actual url, 80% tracking tags. just
>> omitting everything after the .html, or # or similar loses the tracking and
>> keeps the actual link.
>>
>> --
>> Ben Zaiboc
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Jun 14 19:45:03 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 14:45:03 -0500
Subject: [ExI] dementia
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNT+88SsXmhDXP1uCtfQTtMphNTnkUm=Vaqrf5rSpn0V9g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.32.1623628349.14874.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <55d56135-ca26-ecfa-5144-115b4b8dbb2b@zaiboc.net>
 <CAO+xQEb_ggg1Hj7_0X1m2KtvfCbA4gRWtWzYc2rpMmn85LSmvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT+88SsXmhDXP1uCtfQTtMphNTnkUm=Vaqrf5rSpn0V9g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbSGAyy8Ba5RYvVocHM7T+PNb4GBksKfnw41OOYS0x8bg@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks. I have sent links erasing everything after the ? but leaving that
in.  Maybe it doesn't make a difference since no one complained.  bill w

On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 2:17 PM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> If there's a # in the URL, generally that's a bookmark within the page, so
> you can remove that and everything after that unless you are trying to call
> attention to a specific section of the page.  This case is a good example
> of that.
>
> If there's a ? in the URL, the stuff after that is parameters.  Sometimes
> you can remove the ? and everything after that, sometimes the page requires
> some of those parameters to properly load.
>
> Ben's advice about the .html is coincidental.  It's usually true because
> the ? or # (or, rarely, another symbol showing something that can be
> stripped out) usually comes right after .html if it is present, but it is
> the ? or # (or other symbol) that matters.
>
> On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 11:26 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Thanks.  And the ? too, right?   bill w
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 12:08 PM Ben via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 14/06/2021 00:52, bill w wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.treehugger.com/why-were-happier-when-were-older-4861071#:~:text=A%20recent%20study%20found%20a,the%20most%20unhappy%20in%20life.&text=%E2%80%9CPeople%20who%20were%20in%20older,perceived%20stress%20than%20younger%20respondents.%E2%80%9D
>>>
>>> (I couldn't find a way to shorten that link)  bill w
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.treehugger.com/why-were-happier-when-were-older-4861071
>>> <https://www.treehugger.com/why-were-happier-when-were-older-4861071#:~:text=A%20recent%20study%20found%20a,the%20most%20unhappy%20in%20life.&text=%E2%80%9CPeople%20who%20were%20in%20older,perceived%20stress%20than%20younger%20respondents.%E2%80%9D>
>>>
>>>
>>> These days, most links are about 20% actual url, 80% tracking tags. just
>>> omitting everything after the .html, or # or similar loses the tracking and
>>> keeps the actual link.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ben Zaiboc
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
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From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu  Tue Jun 15 01:28:49 2021
From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 21:28:49 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Drones
Message-ID: <72C97B5E-044E-4186-8068-92864198FA82@alumni.virginia.edu>

Autonomous lethal drones are a reality. This makes me nervous. 
https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a36559508/drones-autonomously-attacked-humans-libya-united-nations-report/
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Jun 15 05:18:25 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 22:18:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Drones
In-Reply-To: <72C97B5E-044E-4186-8068-92864198FA82@alumni.virginia.edu>
References: <72C97B5E-044E-4186-8068-92864198FA82@alumni.virginia.edu>
Message-ID: <001701d761a5$dec80eb0$9c582c10$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Henry Rivera via extropy-chat
Subject: [ExI] Drones

 

Autonomous lethal drones are a reality. This makes me nervous. 

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a36559508/drones-autonomously-attacked-humans-libya-united-nations-report/ <https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a36559508/drones-autonomously-attacked-humans-libya-united-nations-report/?utm_medium=social-media&utm_campaign=socialflowFBPOP&utm_source=facebook> 

 

 

 

This should bring to a peaceful close any further discussion of restrictions of gun rights.  Americans need them to shoot down autonomous drones.

 

For that matter, so do citizens of every other country.

 

spike

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From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Jun 15 05:28:40 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 22:28:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Drones
In-Reply-To: <001701d761a5$dec80eb0$9c582c10$@rainier66.com>
References: <72C97B5E-044E-4186-8068-92864198FA82@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <001701d761a5$dec80eb0$9c582c10$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQgOQ_jTTSUOaHaFHzwf7s4+3mZH7rs-Jkh92PqLOn+CQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 10:20 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *Henry Rivera via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* [ExI] Drones
>
>
>
> Autonomous lethal drones are a reality. This makes me nervous.
>
>
> https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a36559508/drones-autonomously-attacked-humans-libya-united-nations-report/
> <https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a36559508/drones-autonomously-attacked-humans-libya-united-nations-report/?utm_medium=social-media&utm_campaign=socialflowFBPOP&utm_source=facebook>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> This should bring to a peaceful close any further discussion of
> restrictions of gun rights.  Americans need them to shoot down autonomous
> drones.
>
>
>
> For that matter, so do citizens of every other country.
>

Why not just have your own drones?
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Jun 15 13:28:05 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 06:28:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Drones
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQgOQ_jTTSUOaHaFHzwf7s4+3mZH7rs-Jkh92PqLOn+CQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <72C97B5E-044E-4186-8068-92864198FA82@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <001701d761a5$dec80eb0$9c582c10$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQgOQ_jTTSUOaHaFHzwf7s4+3mZH7rs-Jkh92PqLOn+CQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004201d761ea$467ce230$d376a690$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
?

 

This should bring to a peaceful close any further discussion of restrictions of gun rights.  Americans need them to shoot down autonomous drones.

 ?

 

>?Why not just have your own drones? 

 

Ah, mutual assured drone destruction.  The mothers against drunk driving are not going to like having to share their acronym.

 

We knew this was coming several years ago when the quad rotor drones began to show up and didn?t cost much: they could be made into untraceable weapons.  It wouldn?t even be hard to do if one didn?t care who was the victim, such as a terrorist would do.  The bad guy could rig one of those to fly over a crowded stadium, drop flour or powdered sugar, get the infidels to stampede.

 

Regarding homeland defense, a box of shells for Mister Twelve Gage is cheaper and more reliable.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Jun 15 13:54:02 2021
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 14:54:02 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Humans might be making genetic evolution obsolete
Message-ID: <CAL_armhRtUYeMD=vZSj_u_FjAGV0LQ7T4Z=8tSi_ZfOeEVO5HQ@mail.gmail.com>

Humans might be making genetic evolution obsolete
By Cameron Duke - Live Science Contributor   14 June 2021

Humans now evolve faster than ever, and it's not because of genes.

<https://www.livescience.com/culture-evolves-faster-than-genes.html>

Quotes:
Waring and Wood argue in their new study, published June 2 in the
journal Proceedings of the Royal Society B, that at some point in
human history, culture began to wrest evolutionary control from our
DNA. And now, they say, cultural change is allowing us to evolve in
ways biological change alone could not.

Here's why: Culture is group-oriented, and people in those groups talk
to, learn from and imitate one another. These group behaviors allow
people to pass on adaptations they learned through culture faster than
genes can transmit similar survival benefits. An individual can learn
skills and information from a nearly unlimited number of people in a
small amount of time and, in turn, spread that information to many
others.
-------------
In contrast, a person only inherits genetic information from two
parents and racks up relatively few random mutations in their eggs or
sperm, which takes about 20 years to be passed on to their small
handful of children. That's just a much slower pace of change.
----------
It?s possible, the researchers suggest, that the appearance of human
culture represents a key evolutionary milestone.
-----------

Sounds good to me........

BillK


From ddraig at gmail.com  Tue Jun 15 14:08:39 2021
From: ddraig at gmail.com (ddraig@pobox.com)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2021 00:08:39 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Drones
In-Reply-To: <004201d761ea$467ce230$d376a690$@rainier66.com>
References: <72C97B5E-044E-4186-8068-92864198FA82@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <001701d761a5$dec80eb0$9c582c10$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQgOQ_jTTSUOaHaFHzwf7s4+3mZH7rs-Jkh92PqLOn+CQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004201d761ea$467ce230$d376a690$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAGfkSy2D9M_YQe+ukycdi32kgkpQZmSW5f7serumw4j8kLm-ZQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 15 Jun 2021 at 23:33, spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:


>
>
> We knew this was coming several years ago when the quad rotor drones began
> to show up
>

When I was a kid, there was an article in a local newspaper in Melbourne
about a weird death.  This guy had heard a noise outside, opened his back
door to see what it was, and a remotely-controlled model airplane flew at
high speed into his chest as he stood in the doorway, killing him. The
police said it was a terrible accident, but I always wondered if it
actually was an accident.  The plane seemed to be remarkably precise in
it's flight path. I was a kid at the time, and I've never forgotten this
article.  This was 1978? Something like that.  So, yeah, drones have made
it easier to kill people (look at the footage of the resistance in Iraq
dropping explosives onto US tank commanders from a drone) but I've been
wondering since the 70s why this has taken so long to come about.

Autonomous drones, though - that's very scary.

I read a story about the same time - it was in an SF anthology edited by
Sam Moskowitz, I think (Futures to Infinity).  Looking up the name of the
story, I've just discovered it was written by Phillip K Dick, which is
pretty cool to now realise, actually.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Variety

The newspaper article and the SF story made a powerful impression on me at
the time (I was about 10 years old, I think)

Anyway, there's a pile of things I've carried around in the back of my head
since I was a kid, wondering when they'd manifest into reality.  The
newspaper article and "Second Variety" are two of them.

(I'm still waiting for roads to be dug up for their hydrocarbon content,
amongst other things).

Dwayne
-- 
  ddraig at pobox.com              ddraigbot / NSO / Connery
         ...r.e.t.u.r.n....t.o....t.h.e....s.o.u.r.c.e...
                   http://fav.me/dqkgpd
<http://tinyurl.com/he-is-right-you-know-jpg>
our aim is wakefulness,  our enemy is dreamless sleep
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From henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com  Wed Jun 16 12:22:10 2021
From: henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com (Henrik Ohrstrom)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2021 14:22:10 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Drones
In-Reply-To: <CAGfkSy2D9M_YQe+ukycdi32kgkpQZmSW5f7serumw4j8kLm-ZQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <72C97B5E-044E-4186-8068-92864198FA82@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <001701d761a5$dec80eb0$9c582c10$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQgOQ_jTTSUOaHaFHzwf7s4+3mZH7rs-Jkh92PqLOn+CQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004201d761ea$467ce230$d376a690$@rainier66.com>
 <CAGfkSy2D9M_YQe+ukycdi32kgkpQZmSW5f7serumw4j8kLm-ZQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAF0GBngto63nRUvFM1YgoNdL4BBT5dqU5Cx-6tQ0fa0HzhvxcA@mail.gmail.com>

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strix_mortar_round

Lethal drone in use since -94
Loiter time is somewhat limited but it is fully autonomous after deployment.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_mine
Way too long loiter time. Most of them also quite stupid as drones goes.

Anyone thinking that drone warfare is avoidable have way too thick
roseglasses.

/Henrik

Den tis 15 juni 2021 16:11ddraig--- via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> skrev:

>
>
> On Tue, 15 Jun 2021 at 23:33, spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>
>> We knew this was coming several years ago when the quad rotor drones
>> began to show up
>>
>
> When I was a kid, there was an article in a local newspaper in Melbourne
> about a weird death.  This guy had heard a noise outside, opened his back
> door to see what it was, and a remotely-controlled model airplane flew at
> high speed into his chest as he stood in the doorway, killing him. The
> police said it was a terrible accident, but I always wondered if it
> actually was an accident.  The plane seemed to be remarkably precise in
> it's flight path. I was a kid at the time, and I've never forgotten this
> article.  This was 1978? Something like that.  So, yeah, drones have made
> it easier to kill people (look at the footage of the resistance in Iraq
> dropping explosives onto US tank commanders from a drone) but I've been
> wondering since the 70s why this has taken so long to come about.
>
> Autonomous drones, though - that's very scary.
>
> I read a story about the same time - it was in an SF anthology edited by
> Sam Moskowitz, I think (Futures to Infinity).  Looking up the name of the
> story, I've just discovered it was written by Phillip K Dick, which is
> pretty cool to now realise, actually.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Variety
>
> The newspaper article and the SF story made a powerful impression on me at
> the time (I was about 10 years old, I think)
>
> Anyway, there's a pile of things I've carried around in the back of my
> head since I was a kid, wondering when they'd manifest into reality.  The
> newspaper article and "Second Variety" are two of them.
>
> (I'm still waiting for roads to be dug up for their hydrocarbon content,
> amongst other things).
>
> Dwayne
> --
>   ddraig at pobox.com              ddraigbot / NSO / Connery
>          ...r.e.t.u.r.n....t.o....t.h.e....s.o.u.r.c.e...
>                    http://fav.me/dqkgpd
> <http://tinyurl.com/he-is-right-you-know-jpg>
> our aim is wakefulness,  our enemy is dreamless sleep
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Jun 16 15:37:20 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2021 08:37:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] nova eagle show
Message-ID: <001601d762c5$7f6b3250$7e4196f0$@rainier66.com>


Oh this is cool.  Nova is one of those rare science shows that often delivers the goods.  They did a program on eagles.  I was not aware that they figured out a way to hunt in pairs.  Check out about the 10.20 minute mark for a pair of Verreaux egales working together to snag a rock hyrax.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/video/eagle-power/

If eagles were not already the coolest damn things in the sky, now I learn they figured out a strategy for hunting in pairs.

spike



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Jun 16 16:25:24 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2021 11:25:24 -0500
Subject: [ExI] charity
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbdm=BcWs6NhL83cuGRJtWrAcD+6g9pzt=konYo5ipNHw@mail.gmail.com>

AmazonSmile has made a charitable donation to the charity you?ve selected, *St.
Jude Children's Research Hospital*, in the amount of *$780,916.62* as a
result of qualifying purchases made by you and other customers who have
selected this charity.

If you use Amazon please consider changing to smile.amazon.com and support
St Jude or some other charity.  It all adds up.   bill w
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Jun 16 23:13:57 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2021 18:13:57 -0500
Subject: [ExI] unusual map
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEb99XVR4JL6qq6XF8fB29Qc4tMh4p87hMQpcPqJySJFUQ@mail.gmail.com>

The New York Times   Let's hear it for those brave men and women of North
Dakota!  Bucking the trend  bill w
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 18 18:52:32 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 13:52:32 -0500
Subject: [ExI] word of the day
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaH7P8tW6Orr1uiuOY1ogCkadgn+5L1QHY8Ch0Esdqa_Q@mail.gmail.com>

oomphalopsychitism

Mystic contemplation of the navel

Giving rise to omphalophobia:  fear of one's or another's navel.  Just
looking at one creates fear.  Now we know why Barbara Eden had hers
covered.  Someone involved in that TV show had oomphalophobia.  Of course
Freud chimed in with the sexual nature of that:  does one's navel resemble
a vagina?  Certainly not the 'outies' unless there are vaginas I am not
familiar with.

Also, oomphaloliths- navel stones.  Meh.  But see:
https://www.buzzfeed.com/julianakataoka/belly-button-anxiety  Some
interesting visuals there.

Remember, you heard it here first.    bill w
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From bronto at pobox.com  Fri Jun 18 19:23:53 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 12:23:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] word of the day
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaH7P8tW6Orr1uiuOY1ogCkadgn+5L1QHY8Ch0Esdqa_Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaH7P8tW6Orr1uiuOY1ogCkadgn+5L1QHY8Ch0Esdqa_Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <850bb22a-8383-6ee8-ad92-62da2d2e75ed@pobox.com>

On 2021-6-18 11:52, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:
> Of course Freud chimed in with the sexual nature of that:? does one's 
> navel resemble a vagina?? Certainly not the 'outies' unless there are 
> vaginas I am not familiar with.

I would assume there are billions.

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org



From monteluna at protonmail.com  Sat Jun 19 22:47:15 2021
From: monteluna at protonmail.com (JF)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2021 22:47:15 +0000
Subject: [ExI] VitaDAO,
 a longevity research decentralized autonomous organization
In-Reply-To: <5Eff4gIxWMnvw1SZrnFj625McYmu4nxAufyuz_-LSU9i6Hi5yWSjhcnnptgTLw0Kf5G_Cj7zlTjyf04NiYxdKwZeZ-DTi9m3Uf7Yi0Gs_CU=@protonmail.com>
References: <5Eff4gIxWMnvw1SZrnFj625McYmu4nxAufyuz_-LSU9i6Hi5yWSjhcnnptgTLw0Kf5G_Cj7zlTjyf04NiYxdKwZeZ-DTi9m3Uf7Yi0Gs_CU=@protonmail.com>
Message-ID: <hHOyCRzmbHb022Z1Zy8EUndnQgFpS79PfTsTV8EW67ulZs1ZesiRTbSHimKbZs2Z92BVc7j-CDPQWu1WYwgU72zV98ZR1aifIO47sUeqTk8=@protonmail.com>

Dug a bit more into this and saw this is associated with the SENS foundation and Aubrey de Grey. Is he and this foundation deserving of such polarizing views? It seems everyone in his field hates him with a veracity akin to Stephen Wolfram.

??????? Original Message ???????
On Sunday, June 13th, 2021 at 8:34 AM, JF via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Not sure if you've all heard, but in 5 days, VitaDAO will launch. It is a DAO on Ethereum that will raise and deploy capital into longevity research. I know we're all reeling from the amount of token volatility over the past few weeks, but it seems as if the promise of decentralized finance is actually starting to shape. Hoping to see some other Extropians take a look at this.
>
> https://vitadao.medium.com/funding-the-single-biggest-factor-limiting-longevity-research-9afab9ea34ca
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Jun 21 18:17:51 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 13:17:51 -0500
Subject: [ExI] nobody's posting, so....
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaDSP9THtvx1E2Hg-q5bdWZjUfzmNYt43pJW+dLk21AVg@mail.gmail.com>

I started to share a link with the world obesity map, which overlaps the
breast size map, but nah, too silly.  So here's a question instead:

What happens to radioactive matter when it is frozen; I mean way down
there?   bill w
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Jun 21 18:28:34 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 11:28:34 -0700
Subject: [ExI] nobody's posting, so....
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaDSP9THtvx1E2Hg-q5bdWZjUfzmNYt43pJW+dLk21AVg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaDSP9THtvx1E2Hg-q5bdWZjUfzmNYt43pJW+dLk21AVg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000d01d766cb$3f496d90$bddc48b0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: [ExI] nobody's posting, so....

 

>?I started to share a link with the world obesity map, which overlaps the breast size map, but nah, too silly?

 

Too silly for? here?  Indeed sir?  That?s some powerful silly.

 

>?What happens to radioactive matter when it is frozen; I mean way down there?   bill w

 

Radioactivity comes from things that happen in the nucleus.  The nucleus doesn?t know or care what the electrons are doing, which is all just lowly chemistry.  The nucleus does what it does, regardless if the atom is gaseous, liquid or frozen solid, in its pure state, ionized, dissolved in solution or in a compound with something else.

 

Most radioactive matter is frozen.  It decays just the same.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Jun 21 18:49:17 2021
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 19:49:17 +0100
Subject: [ExI] nobody's posting, so....
In-Reply-To: <000d01d766cb$3f496d90$bddc48b0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaDSP9THtvx1E2Hg-q5bdWZjUfzmNYt43pJW+dLk21AVg@mail.gmail.com>
 <000d01d766cb$3f496d90$bddc48b0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armg_1TBRJhrZQDGG=iFEinicGKaAFYZ9ipzdv=Wf4emdoQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 21 Jun 2021 at 19:30, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> Radioactivity comes from things that happen in the nucleus.  The nucleus doesn?t know or care what the electrons are doing, which is all just lowly chemistry.  The nucleus does what it does, regardless if the atom is gaseous, liquid or frozen solid, in its pure state, ionized, dissolved in solution or in a compound with something else.
>
> Most radioactive matter is frozen.  It decays just the same.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


I think you need to rephrase / clarify that statement.
Most industrial use radioactive matter is not frozen.
Radioactivity generates heat.
See: <https://www.energy.gov/science/doe-explainsradioactivity>
Quote:
Without heat from naturally occurring radioactivity, the Earth?s core
would have frozen billions of years ago.
-----------------

(And I suspect there is probably quite a lot of naturally occurring
radioactive matter in the earth's core).



BillK


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Jun 21 19:27:05 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 14:27:05 -0500
Subject: [ExI] nobody's posting, so....
In-Reply-To: <000d01d766cb$3f496d90$bddc48b0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaDSP9THtvx1E2Hg-q5bdWZjUfzmNYt43pJW+dLk21AVg@mail.gmail.com>
 <000d01d766cb$3f496d90$bddc48b0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZTnZxFQzZaFK6oUA2vq5dZbN9xvDmhg75BsUnCQ1LPDA@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3746109/Target-Map-releases-map-average-breast-sizes-world.html

Also of interest:  saw a news story about tubers drowning and thought of
potatoes.    I have a sick mind.  bill w

On Mon, Jun 21, 2021 at 1:30 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* [ExI] nobody's posting, so....
>
>
>
> >?I started to share a link with the world obesity map, which overlaps
> the breast size map, but nah, too silly?
>
>
>
> Too silly for? here?  Indeed sir?  That?s some powerful silly.
>
>
>
> >?What happens to radioactive matter when it is frozen; I mean way down
> there?   bill w
>
>
>
> Radioactivity comes from things that happen in the nucleus.  The nucleus
> doesn?t know or care what the electrons are doing, which is all just lowly
> chemistry.  The nucleus does what it does, regardless if the atom is
> gaseous, liquid or frozen solid, in its pure state, ionized, dissolved in
> solution or in a compound with something else.
>
>
>
> Most radioactive matter is frozen.  It decays just the same.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From bronto at pobox.com  Tue Jun 22 01:05:12 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 18:05:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] nobody's posting, so....
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZTnZxFQzZaFK6oUA2vq5dZbN9xvDmhg75BsUnCQ1LPDA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaDSP9THtvx1E2Hg-q5bdWZjUfzmNYt43pJW+dLk21AVg@mail.gmail.com>
 <000d01d766cb$3f496d90$bddc48b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZTnZxFQzZaFK6oUA2vq5dZbN9xvDmhg75BsUnCQ1LPDA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5a7990cc-c829-dbf4-230b-cddc71b8a750@pobox.com>

On 2021-6-21 12:27, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:
> Also of interest:? saw a news story about tubers drowning and thought of 
> potatoes.? ? I have a sick mind.? bill w

Flooding is probably not good for spuds, else they could be grown in 
rice paddies to increase the yield.

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org



From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Jun 22 09:15:38 2021
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 10:15:38 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The Magpie Whisperer
Message-ID: <CAL_arminTu=YwPKF7gnwafD7hfd6Luesbm_RkbCKZ9MTDMQwuQ@mail.gmail.com>

Woman Gives Toys to a Wild Magpie ? and He Invites His Friends Over to
Play   5 min. video

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqSbDcks_uA>

Danielle had just moved into her new home when all of a sudden, a wild
magpie landed at her feet. He would follow her around and sit on her
knee. Then, he brought his son over. Before long, 25 teenage magpies
were playing in her yard!
-----------------

Really intelligent birds!  :)

BillK


From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Jun 22 13:48:29 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 06:48:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Magpie Whisperer
In-Reply-To: <CAL_arminTu=YwPKF7gnwafD7hfd6Luesbm_RkbCKZ9MTDMQwuQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_arminTu=YwPKF7gnwafD7hfd6Luesbm_RkbCKZ9MTDMQwuQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001101d7676d$48d40670$da7c1350$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat
Subject: [ExI] The Magpie Whisperer

Woman Gives Toys to a Wild Magpie ? and He Invites His Friends Over to
Play   5 min. video

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqSbDcks_uA>

Danielle had just moved into her new home when all of a sudden, a wild magpie landed at her feet. He would follow her around and sit on her knee. Then, he brought his son over. Before long, 25 teenage magpies were playing in her yard!
-----------------

Really intelligent birds!  :)

BillK

_______________________________________________


Cool, thanks BillK!

We have ravens around here which do things like this: find a person they perceive as sympathetic and hang around in their yard.  They somehow perceive things like that.  They fight and play too, more than any mammal species I know other than humans.

spike



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Jun 22 15:22:52 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 10:22:52 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The Magpie Whisperer
In-Reply-To: <001101d7676d$48d40670$da7c1350$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_arminTu=YwPKF7gnwafD7hfd6Luesbm_RkbCKZ9MTDMQwuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <001101d7676d$48d40670$da7c1350$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbhWGscgAO5AGZDx5T-eehZbaEziL9N11zbgZLMqffvZQ@mail.gmail.com>

If you have never read a book on birds and their behaviors, you are really
missing out.  Like nearly everything but used tires, they are much more
complex than you think, and much smarter, esp. the covids.   bill w

On Tue, Jun 22, 2021 at 8:52 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
> BillK via extropy-chat
> Subject: [ExI] The Magpie Whisperer
>
> Woman Gives Toys to a Wild Magpie ? and He Invites His Friends Over to
> Play   5 min. video
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqSbDcks_uA>
>
> Danielle had just moved into her new home when all of a sudden, a wild
> magpie landed at her feet. He would follow her around and sit on her knee.
> Then, he brought his son over. Before long, 25 teenage magpies were playing
> in her yard!
> -----------------
>
> Really intelligent birds!  :)
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Cool, thanks BillK!
>
> We have ravens around here which do things like this: find a person they
> perceive as sympathetic and hang around in their yard.  They somehow
> perceive things like that.  They fight and play too, more than any mammal
> species I know other than humans.
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Jun 22 16:21:09 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 09:21:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Magpie Whisperer
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbhWGscgAO5AGZDx5T-eehZbaEziL9N11zbgZLMqffvZQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_arminTu=YwPKF7gnwafD7hfd6Luesbm_RkbCKZ9MTDMQwuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <001101d7676d$48d40670$da7c1350$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbhWGscgAO5AGZDx5T-eehZbaEziL9N11zbgZLMqffvZQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000e01d76782$9cac5cb0$d6051610$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2021 8:23 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>; extropolis at googlegroups.com
Cc: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] The Magpie Whisperer

 

>?If you have never read a book on birds and their behaviors, you are really missing out.  Like nearly everything but used tires, they are much more complex than you think, and much smarter, esp. the covids.   bill w

 

 

I wouldn?t be surprised if you correctly typed corvids and your spell checker changed it to covids.

 

Oy vey.

 

Birds are cool.   There is such varied behaviors from various species.  Note that Darwin was both a bird guy and a dog guy (sheesh how could anyone not love dogs?)  If one is both, it offers insights into breeding that can lead to being the one who discovered the mechanism behind evolution.

 

spike 

 

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Jun 22 16:39:27 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 09:39:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Magpie Whisperer
In-Reply-To: <000e01d76782$9cac5cb0$d6051610$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_arminTu=YwPKF7gnwafD7hfd6Luesbm_RkbCKZ9MTDMQwuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <001101d7676d$48d40670$da7c1350$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbhWGscgAO5AGZDx5T-eehZbaEziL9N11zbgZLMqffvZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000e01d76782$9cac5cb0$d6051610$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <001201d76785$2b2d7670$81886350$@rainier66.com>

 

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2021 8:23 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> >; extropolis at googlegroups.com <mailto:extropolis at googlegroups.com> 
Cc: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com <mailto:foozler83 at gmail.com> >
Subject: Re: [ExI] The Magpie Whisperer

 

>?Like nearly everything but used tires, they are much more complex than you think, and much smarter, esp. the covids.   bill w

 

 

We can call it Billw?s rule: Everything except used tires is more complex than you think.

 

I have two corollaries to the rule:

 

1: Even if you apply and compensate for Billw?s rule, Billw?s rule still applies to nearly everything.

 

2: Used tires are an oddball exception to Billw?s rule (because they are more complex than you think (even if you apply and compensate for Billw?s rule.))

 

spike

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Jun 22 17:18:09 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 10:18:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Magpie Whisperer
In-Reply-To: <001201d76785$2b2d7670$81886350$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_arminTu=YwPKF7gnwafD7hfd6Luesbm_RkbCKZ9MTDMQwuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <001101d7676d$48d40670$da7c1350$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbhWGscgAO5AGZDx5T-eehZbaEziL9N11zbgZLMqffvZQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <001201d76785$2b2d7670$81886350$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <003901d7678a$93ce0820$bb6a1860$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 



 

>?2: Used tires are an oddball exception to Billw?s rule (because they are more complex than you think (even if you apply and compensate for Billw?s rule.))   spike

 

 

How much do you know about used tires?  How complex are they?  I have a theory that they are more complex than either of us think they are.

 

For instance? if one is a thermoplastics fan or just find this sorta thing cool for any reason (I do) one has looked at the manufacturing of tires.  If you go out and look at your car, notice those little whisker thingies on the sidewalls.  Ever wonder what those are?

 

Tires are made by injection molding.  Liquid rubber is forced into the mold, so those are holes in the mold made for letting the air out as the rubber comes in.  Some of the rubber goes into the vent holes.  The whisker part that stays with the tire is called a vent sprues.

 

If one buys used tires, vent sprues are your friends, because they are talkative.  One can tell some things about a used tire if you examine those sprues.

 

I won?t go into all the sprue clues (because used tires are too complex, even after we apply and compensate for Billw?s rule) but I will just mention this one cool thing.

 

After the liquid rubber goes into the mold, it is heated and undergoes a kind of one-way chemical reaction called vulcanization, which is analogous to cooking egg where the egg undergoes the Maillard reaction.  In the tire and the egg, you can?t melt it back into liquid with heat.

 

Tire goes onto car or motorcycle or RV (this last one is included for a reason.)  Over time, vulcanized rubber exposed to air and ultraviolet, the vulcanized rubber oxidizes and becomes brittle.  When the vehicle is rolling, the centrifugal force and turbulent air whip those sprues around.  After the tire is a few years old, the embrittled sprues break off.

 

OK cool, so no mystery, but notice the difference between the sprues on the inside of the tire vs the outside.  If the tire has remaining sprues on the inside but not the outside, then one can estimate the age of the tire if the car has been exposed to sunlight.  Reasoning: the outboard sprues are more exposed to UV which oxidizes the rubber and they break off first.  The outside of the tire might also be exposed to more turbulence, because the undercarriage of the car drags air along (that part I don?t know much about, so it is speculation.)

 

Take a used tire from a car, compare the sprues one side to the other, and create a ratio of some kind.  Then repeat experiment with a front tire from a motorcycle, where (over time) both sides of the tire see similar UV and turbulence.  Unless the bike is parked outdoors facing east or west consistently, the sprues should be about even, so sprue ratio should be about 1, but the ratio on the car tire should be easily noticeable and not 1.

 

OK, suppose you have an old ratty ride and you want to score on some cheap used tires.  If two choices have about the same amount of tread left, one would want the newer tire because the rubber is less oxidized.  A prole can tell which is the younger tire by close examination of the mold vent sprues.

 

There?s a point to all this, which I will reveal if anyone is still reading about something as apparently simple as a used tire (which isn?t simple at all) and asks what is the point of all this, because it has everything to do with used RVs.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From avant at sollegro.com  Tue Jun 22 17:25:15 2021
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 10:25:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Humans might be making genetic evolution obsolete
In-Reply-To: <mailman.17.1624375401.601.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <20210622102515.Horde.q7nTfb901-FJrfKIW2sms_s@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>


Quoting BillK <pharos at gmail.com>:

> Humans might be making genetic evolution obsolete
> By Cameron Duke - Live Science Contributor   14 June 2021
>
> Humans now evolve faster than ever, and it's not because of genes.
> <https://www.livescience.com/culture-evolves-faster-than-genes.html>
> Quotes:
> Waring and Wood argue in their new study, published June 2 in the
> journal Proceedings of the Royal Society B, that at some point in
> human history, culture began to wrest evolutionary control from our
> DNA. And now, they say, cultural change is allowing us to evolve in
> ways biological change alone could not.
[snip]
> It?s possible, the researchers suggest, that the appearance of human
> culture represents a key evolutionary milestone.
> -----------
>
> Sounds good to me........

Indeed. The relationship between genetics and culture is much like the  
relationship between hardware and software. Culture runs on top of the  
underlying biology. Which is why, while I agree with the scientific  
study, the Live Science article headline was off-putting for me; it  
was like saying "Software might be making hardware obsolete" or  
"Automobiles might be making wheels obsolete."

Another thing I didn't like was that it was unnecessarily  
anthropocentric. There are some pretty clear indications of culture  
among many higher animals: primates, elephants, dolphins, and as your  
video suggests, magpies. After all, it is not genetics that has that  
flock of magpies following that woman around.

Stuart LaForge


From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Jun 22 17:41:17 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 10:41:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Magpie Whisperer
In-Reply-To: <003901d7678a$93ce0820$bb6a1860$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_arminTu=YwPKF7gnwafD7hfd6Luesbm_RkbCKZ9MTDMQwuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <001101d7676d$48d40670$da7c1350$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbhWGscgAO5AGZDx5T-eehZbaEziL9N11zbgZLMqffvZQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNSWKyxyX2o58HhsR6+xB_Ese4Qm3Mhb2dJB1vNAB+TZdw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 22, 2021 at 10:20 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> If you go out and look at your car, notice those little whisker thingies
> on the sidewalls.  Ever wonder what those are?
>

They are not a clue that kittens are made by injection molding.  ;)


> There?s a point to all this, which I will reveal if anyone is still
> reading about something as apparently simple as a used tire (which isn?t
> simple at all) and asks what is the point of all this, because it has
> everything to do with used RVs.
>

Go on, you want to tell us anyway.  :)
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Jun 22 18:25:30 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 13:25:30 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Humans might be making genetic evolution obsolete
In-Reply-To: <20210622102515.Horde.q7nTfb901-FJrfKIW2sms_s@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <mailman.17.1624375401.601.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <20210622102515.Horde.q7nTfb901-FJrfKIW2sms_s@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYq9a4ik_5S1ToNt=0h8PidTyDu_Gw41kAjCLr2Bp+k-g@mail.gmail.com>

It's been tried many times:  communism - no personal property  How many
times has it failed?  Every time . This is a cultural thing of course, but
something tells me that genes are playing a limiting, restraining role
here.  Not everything can be learned.  Not all cultures will fit human
genes.  Probably true of magpies as well. Genetics probably is playing a
role in the magpie's behavior.  How would we know?  Check magpies from
other locales and look for similarity.  Nature/Nurture - always
interactions.

 the appearance of human culture represents a key evolutionary milestone.

Just when are they talking about?  How many millions of years ago?  Humans
have always had a culture, and so did the creatures that became humans.
All it requires is the ability to learn more than very simple things.  bill
w

On Tue, Jun 22, 2021 at 12:27 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> Quoting BillK <pharos at gmail.com>:
>
> > Humans might be making genetic evolution obsolete
> > By Cameron Duke - Live Science Contributor   14 June 2021
> >
> > Humans now evolve faster than ever, and it's not because of genes.
> > <https://www.livescience.com/culture-evolves-faster-than-genes.html>
> > Quotes:
> > Waring and Wood argue in their new study, published June 2 in the
> > journal Proceedings of the Royal Society B, that at some point in
> > human history, culture began to wrest evolutionary control from our
> > DNA. And now, they say, cultural change is allowing us to evolve in
> > ways biological change alone could not.
> [snip]
> > It?s possible, the researchers suggest, that the appearance of human
> > culture represents a key evolutionary milestone.
> > -----------
> >
> > Sounds good to me........
>
> Indeed. The relationship between genetics and culture is much like the
> relationship between hardware and software. Culture runs on top of the
> underlying biology. Which is why, while I agree with the scientific
> study, the Live Science article headline was off-putting for me; it
> was like saying "Software might be making hardware obsolete" or
> "Automobiles might be making wheels obsolete."
>
> Another thing I didn't like was that it was unnecessarily
> anthropocentric. There are some pretty clear indications of culture
> among many higher animals: primates, elephants, dolphins, and as your
> video suggests, magpies. After all, it is not genetics that has that
> flock of magpies following that woman around.
>
> Stuart LaForge
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From bronto at pobox.com  Tue Jun 22 18:28:53 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 11:28:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Humans might be making genetic evolution obsolete
In-Reply-To: <20210622102515.Horde.q7nTfb901-FJrfKIW2sms_s@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <20210622102515.Horde.q7nTfb901-FJrfKIW2sms_s@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <814febed-f481-118c-5d9f-18a746a66de6@pobox.com>

On 2021-6-22 10:25, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote:
> Indeed. The relationship between genetics and culture is much like the
> relationship between hardware and software. Culture runs on top of the
> underlying biology. Which is why, while I agree with the scientific
> study, the Live Science article headline was off-putting for me; it
> was like saying "Software might be making hardware obsolete" or
> "Automobiles might be making wheels obsolete."

More like ?changes in software are making changes in hardware 
unnecessary/irrelevant.?

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org



From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Jun 22 18:41:44 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 11:41:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Magpie Whisperer
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSWKyxyX2o58HhsR6+xB_Ese4Qm3Mhb2dJB1vNAB+TZdw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_arminTu=YwPKF7gnwafD7hfd6Luesbm_RkbCKZ9MTDMQwuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <001101d7676d$48d40670$da7c1350$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbhWGscgAO5AGZDx5T-eehZbaEziL9N11zbgZLMqffvZQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <002d01d76796$407bced0$c1736c70$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat



 

>?They are not a clue that kittens are made by injection molding.  ;)

 

That depends on the breed.  The rare show-quality Abyssinian Bobtail Moldcat is made that way. 

 

 

>>?There?s a point to all this, which I will reveal if anyone is still reading about something as apparently simple as a used tire (which isn?t simple at all) and asks what is the point of all this, because it has everything to do with used RVs.

 

>?Go on, you want to tell us anyway.  :)  Adrian

 

Adrian, you know me well sir.  I spend all these years looking carefully at everything around me, gobbling up arcane info in places like ExI-chat where most of us have interesting thoughts and observations.  It is such a tragedy to not pass along our arcane wisdom to you young fellers.

 

Lockheed Sunnyvale where I worked for many years offered a little perk to the employees: we could park an RVs back in the back lot where it was free, fenced, gated and perfectly safe.  Lots of proles put boats, campers back there along with old cars (which they dreamed of restoring someday (but we know that for most of us, someday never comes.))

 

Boats and campers are two good examples of a toy that people buy when they are young, but quickly discover are far more complicated and expensive to operate than they thought, because their friends who had a boat or camper didn?t really explain that part.  Boats take a loooootta lotta effort to haul to the site and launch, then one quickly realizes that once the boat is out in the lake or at sea? there?s nothing to do.  Catch some fish (maybe.)  Go fast.  Check out the shoreline.  Dive off the side and swim.  Get back in.  Get a horrifying sunburn.  Copulate if the conditions are agreeable.  OK did all that, now what?  Discovery: boating isn?t as fun as you thought.  Boat falls into disuse.

 

Camper: go camping, discover the commercial campground is more crowded, more dangerous, with far less to do and with far worse air quality (from campfires), more noisy at night than one?s own neighborhood, but still worse? the family?s individual enthusiasm for camping varies widely.  Result: one or more family members finds whiney excuses to not go, camper falls into disuse (except for the classic use for many of them parked back there: employees would sneak out into the back lot and use the RV as a secret meeting place (details not available (and unnecessary (clarification: I never used mine for that purpose (not kidding, I didn?t go there (but plenty of RV owners did.))))))

 

Very well.  Prole wants a camper, wonders which one would be best, so he checks out a key, goes out to the back parking area, discovers thousands of these things have accumulated over the decades, very literally thousands.  That lot back there is an RV graveyard.  Many haven?t had new tags in 20 years, which is not an exaggeration at all, for busy young people bought them, then discovered camping wasn?t their thing, or the spouse at the time didn?t like it much, so it was only kept for? well, that, and even then, people get busier in their middle years and don?t even have all that much time for? that.

 

Result: camper is bought, falls into disuse after a year or two.  Campers have a plastic vent cover or two (mine has three.)  Those translucent covers are plastic, so they degrade in the sun over time, and after a few years, a decade or less the once-flexible plastic is UV degraded and is as brittle and delicate as a potato chip.  Wind comes, they break off, rain comes in, rots whatever below the vent, which is usually a bed.  The front vent is over the dining/cooking area, so the wood floor rots there too.  After 15 years of non-use, a typical RV needs so much refurbishment, its value is near zero.

 

What has all this to do with mold vent sprues, the young people asked.

 

Glad you should ask.  If you go to the RV lot, you can find 40 year old RVs with the most recent tag 20 yrs ago.  So you already know it has been out of service a long time, and the original owner has likely passed on, but examining the tires will tell an interesting story.  On some of those 40 year old RVs, the tires are flat (all of them) the tread is unworn and the outboard mold vent sprues are still present.  They snap right off if you bend them.  That indicates two things: unworn tread means the RV was never driven far.  The presence of outboard sprues indicates that after the RV was older than just a few years.  Other than its use for?that? it was seldom used for anything.  It was a total waste of money.

 

This can all be discovered with a little knowledge of how rubber ages and a careful examination of a tire?s mold vent sprues, which is actually fascinating.

 

Result: before I agreed to buy one 14 yrs ago, I made dang sure I would use it.  My camper is on its third set of tires, 4th set of vent covers, has 436 camping nights in it and has traveled 84000 miles.  So? we get our money?s worth out of that camper.  But many, if not most RVs are almost a total waste.

 

Now Billw of course can get revenge on me for all the trash I gave that lad for reading a book about? cod.  (About cod!  (oh mercy, cod he reads books about.)) Well, cod just don?t interest me much.  But about those little rubber whiskers on tires he waxes eloquent.  Those are more fascinating to me than the real purpose for which a lotta Lockheed people really used those RVs.  Tragic.

 

spike

 

 

 

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From avant at sollegro.com  Tue Jun 22 18:49:44 2021
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 11:49:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Magpie Whisperer
In-Reply-To: <mailman.17.1624375401.601.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <20210622114944.Horde.wIe-GUWSb223bdQitIKM2ko@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>


Quoting Spike:

> Cool, thanks BillK!
>
> We have ravens around here which do things like this: find a person  
> they perceive as sympathetic and hang around in their yard.  They  
> somehow perceive things like that.  They fight and play too, more  
> than any mammal species I know other than humans.
> spike

There are some ravens that live or hang out near my work. A few months  
ago, I saw one of the ravens do something pretty amazing. I was in the  
parking lot watching a large hawk that was lazily circling high  
overhead just riding the thermals presumably on the look out for prey.  
I then noticed another bird that I was shocked to see was a raven  
flying higher than I have ever seen a raven fly, making a beeline  
toward the hawk.

The hawk, legendary for the acuity of its vision, was completely  
oblivious of this raven approaching him. It was then that I realized  
that the raven had climbed to an altitude higher than the hawk off in  
the distance somewhere, and was now sneaking up on the hawk from above  
while the hawk was scanning the ground.

When the raven hit the hawk beak first, I noticed the raven and the  
hawk were of similar size, but the hawk had no idea what was  
happening. It tumbled in the air a few times and then flapped  
frantically to get away from the raven. The raven chased it for a  
while, but the hawk who did not want any part of that raven.

Ravens are definitely a top-tier bird.

Stuart LaForge



From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Jun 22 18:55:55 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 11:55:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Magpie Whisperer
In-Reply-To: <002d01d76796$407bced0$c1736c70$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_arminTu=YwPKF7gnwafD7hfd6Luesbm_RkbCKZ9MTDMQwuQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNTkFv0PawD78tD-9m2DgsX_sRcdjV5sxHnXKGASUHndqw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 22, 2021 at 11:43 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Lots of proles put boats, campers back there along with old cars (which
> they dreamed of restoring someday (but we know that for most of us, someday
> never comes.))
>

This reminds me of some science fiction I once wrote, about a futuristic
spacecraft (the Wasp class) that could be seen as a minimal space camper:

> On some worlds, the iconic image of a hick mechanic is one who has bought
a disabled Wasp and intends to fix it up, but never gets around to actually
doing so (or neither has nor will learn the skill to fix it), resulting in
a rusting hulk outside the would-be mechanic's dwelling.  Those
particularly inept at learning from their mistakes may buy another,
resulting in two rusting hulks - which will often be explained as something
to cannibalize parts from.  Fortunately, this being an iconic image, if the
hapless soul has any friends, said friends will know to intervene before a
third hulk is purchased.  (On any planet in the Empire, anyone attempting
to do this is preparing for an illegal act - Wasps not being officially
spaceworthy even when repaired - so the hulk will usually be confiscated
and torn to scrap before it has a chance to rust.)
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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Jun 22 19:16:22 2021
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 20:16:22 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The Magpie Whisperer
In-Reply-To: <20210622114944.Horde.wIe-GUWSb223bdQitIKM2ko@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <mailman.17.1624375401.601.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <20210622114944.Horde.wIe-GUWSb223bdQitIKM2ko@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgwtYefStSgP1_z1rj6untkRefCJpMfsEtZ4CWMDULiDQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 22 Jun 2021 at 19:51, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
> Quoting Spike:
>
> > Cool, thanks BillK!
> >
> > We have ravens around here which do things like this: find a person
> > they perceive as sympathetic and hang around in their yard.  They
> > somehow perceive things like that.  They fight and play too, more
> > than any mammal species I know other than humans.
> > spike
>
> There are some ravens that live or hang out near my work. A few months
> ago, I saw one of the ravens do something pretty amazing. I was in the
> parking lot watching a large hawk that was lazily circling high
> overhead just riding the thermals presumably on the look out for prey.
> I then noticed another bird that I was shocked to see was a raven
> flying higher than I have ever seen a raven fly, making a beeline
> toward the hawk.
>
> The hawk, legendary for the acuity of its vision, was completely
> oblivious of this raven approaching him. It was then that I realized
> that the raven had climbed to an altitude higher than the hawk off in
> the distance somewhere, and was now sneaking up on the hawk from above
> while the hawk was scanning the ground.
>
> When the raven hit the hawk beak first, I noticed the raven and the
> hawk were of similar size, but the hawk had no idea what was
> happening. It tumbled in the air a few times and then flapped
> frantically to get away from the raven. The raven chased it for a
> while, but the hawk who did not want any part of that raven.
>
> Ravens are definitely a top-tier bird.
>
> Stuart LaForge
> _______________________________________________

Copied that technique from Spitfire pilots in the Battle of Britain WWII!

BillK

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Jun 22 19:48:12 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 14:48:12 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The Magpie Whisperer
In-Reply-To: <002d01d76796$407bced0$c1736c70$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_arminTu=YwPKF7gnwafD7hfd6Luesbm_RkbCKZ9MTDMQwuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <001101d7676d$48d40670$da7c1350$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbhWGscgAO5AGZDx5T-eehZbaEziL9N11zbgZLMqffvZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000e01d76782$9cac5cb0$d6051610$@rainier66.com>
 <001201d76785$2b2d7670$81886350$@rainier66.com>
 <003901d7678a$93ce0820$bb6a1860$@rainier66.com>
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 <002d01d76796$407bced0$c1736c70$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZskDJLn74STQyTJJpZaBmDt8kbv=QJrsM1bdDOkwcqNQ@mail.gmail.com>

Spike, you are just too smart. You knew I was going to come at you about
the tires after I suffered world class humiliation about reading a book
about cod.  However, your knowledge has been useful and mine is just
interesting.  You just might know more than I do about buying used cars
(for me, that has been one of the necessities of life).

If I need to do something useful I get my neighbor to do it.  He knows
everything.  My iPhone expert is 13.    bill w

On Tue, Jun 22, 2021 at 1:43 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
>
>
>
> >?They are not a clue that kittens are made by injection molding.  ;)
>
>
>
> That depends on the breed.  The rare show-quality Abyssinian Bobtail
> Moldcat is made that way.
>
>
>
>
>
> >>?There?s a point to all this, which I will reveal if anyone is still
> reading about something as apparently simple as a used tire (which isn?t
> simple at all) and asks what is the point of all this, because it has
> everything to do with used RVs.
>
>
>
> >?Go on, you want to tell us anyway.  :)  Adrian
>
>
>
> Adrian, you know me well sir.  I spend all these years looking carefully
> at everything around me, gobbling up arcane info in places like ExI-chat
> where most of us have interesting thoughts and observations.  It is such a
> tragedy to not pass along our arcane wisdom to you young fellers.
>
>
>
> Lockheed Sunnyvale where I worked for many years offered a little perk to
> the employees: we could park an RVs back in the back lot where it was free,
> fenced, gated and perfectly safe.  Lots of proles put boats, campers back
> there along with old cars (which they dreamed of restoring someday (but we
> know that for most of us, someday never comes.))
>
>
>
> Boats and campers are two good examples of a toy that people buy when they
> are young, but quickly discover are far more complicated and expensive to
> operate than they thought, because their friends who had a boat or camper
> didn?t really explain that part.  Boats take a loooootta lotta effort to
> haul to the site and launch, then one quickly realizes that once the boat
> is out in the lake or at sea? there?s nothing to do.  Catch some fish
> (maybe.)  Go fast.  Check out the shoreline.  Dive off the side and swim.
> Get back in.  Get a horrifying sunburn.  Copulate if the conditions are
> agreeable.  OK did all that, now what?  Discovery: boating isn?t as fun as
> you thought.  Boat falls into disuse.
>
>
>
> Camper: go camping, discover the commercial campground is more crowded,
> more dangerous, with far less to do and with far worse air quality (from
> campfires), more noisy at night than one?s own neighborhood, but still
> worse? the family?s individual enthusiasm for camping varies widely.
> Result: one or more family members finds whiney excuses to not go, camper
> falls into disuse (except for the classic use for many of them parked back
> there: employees would sneak out into the back lot and use the RV as a
> secret meeting place (details not available (and unnecessary
> (clarification: I never used mine for that purpose (not kidding, I didn?t
> go there (but plenty of RV owners did.))))))
>
>
>
> Very well.  Prole wants a camper, wonders which one would be best, so he
> checks out a key, goes out to the back parking area, discovers thousands of
> these things have accumulated over the decades, very literally thousands.
> That lot back there is an RV graveyard.  Many haven?t had new tags in 20
> years, which is not an exaggeration at all, for busy young people bought
> them, then discovered camping wasn?t their thing, or the spouse at the time
> didn?t like it much, so it was only kept for? well, that, and even then,
> people get busier in their middle years and don?t even have all that much
> time for? that.
>
>
>
> Result: camper is bought, falls into disuse after a year or two.  Campers
> have a plastic vent cover or two (mine has three.)  Those translucent
> covers are plastic, so they degrade in the sun over time, and after a few
> years, a decade or less the once-flexible plastic is UV degraded and is as
> brittle and delicate as a potato chip.  Wind comes, they break off, rain
> comes in, rots whatever below the vent, which is usually a bed.  The front
> vent is over the dining/cooking area, so the wood floor rots there too.
> After 15 years of non-use, a typical RV needs so much refurbishment, its
> value is near zero.
>
>
>
> What has all this to do with mold vent sprues, the young people asked.
>
>
>
> Glad you should ask.  If you go to the RV lot, you can find 40 year old
> RVs with the most recent tag 20 yrs ago.  So you already know it has been
> out of service a long time, and the original owner has likely passed on,
> but examining the tires will tell an interesting story.  On some of those
> 40 year old RVs, the tires are flat (all of them) the tread is unworn and
> the outboard mold vent sprues are still present.  They snap right off if
> you bend them.  That indicates two things: unworn tread means the RV was
> never driven far.  The presence of outboard sprues indicates that after the
> RV was older than just a few years.  Other than its use for?that? it was
> seldom used for anything.  It was a total waste of money.
>
>
>
> This can all be discovered with a little knowledge of how rubber ages and
> a careful examination of a tire?s mold vent sprues, which is actually
> fascinating.
>
>
>
> Result: before I agreed to buy one 14 yrs ago, I made dang sure I would
> use it.  My camper is on its third set of tires, 4th set of vent covers,
> has 436 camping nights in it and has traveled 84000 miles.  So? we get our
> money?s worth out of that camper.  But many, if not most RVs are almost a
> total waste.
>
>
>
> Now Billw of course can get revenge on me for all the trash I gave that
> lad for reading a book about? cod.  (About cod!  (oh mercy, cod he reads
> books about.)) Well, cod just don?t interest me much.  But about those
> little rubber whiskers on tires he waxes eloquent.  Those are more
> fascinating to me than the real purpose for which a lotta Lockheed people
> really used those RVs.  Tragic.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Jun 22 19:51:08 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 14:51:08 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The Magpie Whisperer
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgwtYefStSgP1_z1rj6untkRefCJpMfsEtZ4CWMDULiDQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.17.1624375401.601.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <20210622114944.Horde.wIe-GUWSb223bdQitIKM2ko@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAL_armgwtYefStSgP1_z1rj6untkRefCJpMfsEtZ4CWMDULiDQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZyJzT_8uK4CFyqQS86E1bftLZr-+WFOXAnerc6TD1T9w@mail.gmail.com>

Do we suppose that the raven was just having fun?  Or maybe it had a nest
full of chicks?  (I wish I did!)   bill w

On Tue, Jun 22, 2021 at 2:18 PM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Tue, 22 Jun 2021 at 19:51, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Quoting Spike:
> >
> > > Cool, thanks BillK!
> > >
> > > We have ravens around here which do things like this: find a person
> > > they perceive as sympathetic and hang around in their yard.  They
> > > somehow perceive things like that.  They fight and play too, more
> > > than any mammal species I know other than humans.
> > > spike
> >
> > There are some ravens that live or hang out near my work. A few months
> > ago, I saw one of the ravens do something pretty amazing. I was in the
> > parking lot watching a large hawk that was lazily circling high
> > overhead just riding the thermals presumably on the look out for prey.
> > I then noticed another bird that I was shocked to see was a raven
> > flying higher than I have ever seen a raven fly, making a beeline
> > toward the hawk.
> >
> > The hawk, legendary for the acuity of its vision, was completely
> > oblivious of this raven approaching him. It was then that I realized
> > that the raven had climbed to an altitude higher than the hawk off in
> > the distance somewhere, and was now sneaking up on the hawk from above
> > while the hawk was scanning the ground.
> >
> > When the raven hit the hawk beak first, I noticed the raven and the
> > hawk were of similar size, but the hawk had no idea what was
> > happening. It tumbled in the air a few times and then flapped
> > frantically to get away from the raven. The raven chased it for a
> > while, but the hawk who did not want any part of that raven.
> >
> > Ravens are definitely a top-tier bird.
> >
> > Stuart LaForge
> > _______________________________________________
>
> Copied that technique from Spitfire pilots in the Battle of Britain WWII!
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From avant at sollegro.com  Tue Jun 22 20:38:44 2021
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 13:38:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Magpie Whisperer
Message-ID: <20210622133844.Horde.o_880nndMG5KeUcFtr4F9oN@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>


Speaking of crows and culture, crows are as smart as 7 year old humans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFU03BcV6IY

What is especially interesting is that crows seem to understand the  
economics of trade and could be an untapped market sector. Someone has  
made a vending machine for crows that gives them food in exchange for  
coins.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcp_FWfYtLY

Now we just need to give these birds jobs!

Stuart LaForge





From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Jun 22 20:44:51 2021
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 21:44:51 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The Magpie Whisperer
In-Reply-To: <002d01d76796$407bced0$c1736c70$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_arminTu=YwPKF7gnwafD7hfd6Luesbm_RkbCKZ9MTDMQwuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <001101d7676d$48d40670$da7c1350$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbhWGscgAO5AGZDx5T-eehZbaEziL9N11zbgZLMqffvZQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAL_armivF+k--C60op2rMoB0fqyT374CNmAL1is+QcYRXjH_4g@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 22 Jun 2021 at 19:43, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
<big snip>
>
> Result: before I agreed to buy one 14 yrs ago, I made dang sure I would use it.  My camper is on its third set of tires, 4th set of vent covers, has 436 camping nights in it and has traveled 84000 miles.  So? we get our money?s worth out of that camper.  But many, if not most RVs are almost a total waste.
>
> Now Billw of course can get revenge on me for all the trash I gave that lad for reading a book about? cod.  (About cod!  (oh mercy, cod he reads books about.)) Well, cod just don?t interest me much.  But about those little rubber whiskers on tires he waxes eloquent.  Those are more fascinating to me than the real purpose for which a lotta Lockheed people really used those RVs.  Tragic.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


Spike now has a slightly worried look. He has just noticed that after
reading that Lockheed post his bride is now looking out the front
window at the RV parked outside, then back at him, then back at the
RV. It is the speculative look on her face that worries him. She
speaks - "Are you busy at the moment, dear?"
A flash of panic, then Spike starts typing furiously. "Actually, I am
rather busy at present, my little tangerine. Why don't you make a cup
of tea?"
For some strange reason she seems to be slightly disappointed. "For
you as well?" as she went to the kitchen.


BillK


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Jun 22 21:34:35 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 16:34:35 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The Magpie Whisperer
In-Reply-To: <20210622133844.Horde.o_880nndMG5KeUcFtr4F9oN@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <20210622133844.Horde.o_880nndMG5KeUcFtr4F9oN@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZeV5B3CjTqr8GxjpOxMXJ8YVN4oJ_rdZoAtws1rHNUaw@mail.gmail.com>

I once saw a machine in which was a chicken.  You played tic tac toe
against it.  The board for the chicken was hidden.  You made a choice and
then the chicken did, getting a treat, and so on.  The chicken never lost.
I managed to get a view of part of the chicken's board, and when the
customer made a choice a square lighted up, cueing the chicken's choice.
So a circuit made the choice, not the chicken, of which little
intelligence was required.  Never caught on, I suppose, though people did
play it, for the novelty I reckon.  Surely a more intelligent game could be
invented for crows.    bill w

On Tue, Jun 22, 2021 at 3:40 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> Speaking of crows and culture, crows are as smart as 7 year old humans.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFU03BcV6IY
>
> What is especially interesting is that crows seem to understand the
> economics of trade and could be an untapped market sector. Someone has
> made a vending machine for crows that gives them food in exchange for
> coins.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcp_FWfYtLY
>
> Now we just need to give these birds jobs!
>
> Stuart LaForge
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Jun 22 22:47:33 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 15:47:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Magpie Whisperer
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZskDJLn74STQyTJJpZaBmDt8kbv=QJrsM1bdDOkwcqNQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_arminTu=YwPKF7gnwafD7hfd6Luesbm_RkbCKZ9MTDMQwuQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <007801d767b8$97b00e60$c7102b20$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2021 12:48 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] The Magpie Whisperer

 

>?Spike, you are just too smart?

 

You are too kind, sir.

 

>? You knew I was going to come at you about the tires after I suffered world class humiliation about reading a book about cod?

 

Well Billw, when one does things like that, reads those kinds of books, one risks consequences!  

 

I am surprised you weren?t right there with the inflammatory ridicule.  I had it coming.  I deserved it, after making up stories about fellow prisoners punishing you by checking out everything from the library except the one book on? cod.

 

You know whoever wrote that book did it as a joke, just to see if anyone would actually read it.  Perhaps he was making a run at the title for the world?s most boring person, possibly trying for an Olympic record in open-class boring.

 

Alternate theory: if one knows enough about something, I suppose anything can become interesting, even used tires and cod.

 

Well OK, retract, the cod thing is just a bridge too far.  But I find old tires interesting.  Keep in mind that I am on the team for the Olympic boring team.

 

spike

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Jun 22 23:00:49 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 16:00:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Magpie Whisperer
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armivF+k--C60op2rMoB0fqyT374CNmAL1is+QcYRXjH_4g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_arminTu=YwPKF7gnwafD7hfd6Luesbm_RkbCKZ9MTDMQwuQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <008601d767ba$719c36c0$54d4a440$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat

> _______________________________________________


>...Spike now has a slightly worried look. He has just noticed that after reading that Lockheed post his bride is now looking out the front window at the RV parked outside, then back at him, then back at the RV. It is the speculative look on her face that worries him. She speaks - "Are you busy at the moment, dear?"
A flash of panic, then Spike starts typing furiously. "Actually, I am rather busy at present, my little tangerine. Why don't you make a cup of tea?"
For some strange reason she seems to be slightly disappointed. "For you as well?" as she went to the kitchen.


BillK

_______________________________________________



>...A flash of panic, then Spike starts typing furiously. "Actually, I am rather busy at present, my little tangerine. Why don't you make a cup of tea?"

BillK, that "tea" business is mostly a British thing.  You guys taxed the stuff, we became annoyed, the local lads tossed it all into the harbor, most of us yanks switched to coffee which has been the beverage of choice ever since.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Tea_Party

All of your comments are plausible and noteworthy, however I am able to sleep soundly as is my bride.  Reason: we worked in an area which required the level of clearance that involves regularly interviewing with the security people, along with the requirement of strapping on a polygraph and proving one didn't have anything which would create a risk of blackmail or extortion.  Otherwise, I could see significant risk in even owning an RV on that back lot.

Seeing all those rotting RVs back there was surreal.  It really brings home the folly of humanity: we have gone to aaaalll that effort, building these wonderful machines that can do so much, created jobs that pay enough that people can buy them and let them sit unused until they are scrap metal.  In an ideal world, there would not be such appalling waste.

spike





From avant at sollegro.com  Wed Jun 23 00:12:38 2021
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 17:12:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Giant UFO tours national capitals around world
Message-ID: <20210622171238.Horde.oINTo0KydM_6tvK5-bcPqMW@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>


First seen over the Kremlin in Moscow, Russia in December 2013.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTnPfGmcOgk

Then what seems to be the exact same UFO is seen over the Pentagon in  
Washington, DC in December of 2018.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItSoXGCMqI8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqGUUwDhVJY

Now what seems to be the exact same UFO was seen earlier today (June  
22, 2022) over Shanghai, China.

https://mobile.twitter.com/today__china/status/1407163717230358540

Anybody have a mundane explanation for this? Such straight lines and  
sharp corners. Could it be a search light with a triangular mask in  
front of it, like the bat signal?

Stuart LaForge








From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Jun 23 00:20:24 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 17:20:24 -0700
Subject: [ExI] land mammals by weight
Message-ID: <00a801d767c5$9011e8b0$b035ba10$@rainier66.com>

 

This comes from XKCD, so it must be true:

 

https://xkcd.com/1338/

 

 



 

 

It agrees with this:

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=chart+showing+biomass+cows
<https://www.google.com/search?q=chart+showing+biomass+cows&tbm=isch&source=
iu&ictx=1&fir=XJjmWBV3BnWowM%252C8Vx0ajCtOBOMiM%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kRclN1G
sRkt2_eB4YlqCXTsoKwd8w&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi5k9LpuqzxAhVU054KHfY1AEoQ9QF6BAgSEAE
#imgrc=_CTh_u7wtvFE2M>
&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=XJjmWBV3BnWowM%252C8Vx0ajCtOBOMiM%252C_&vet=1
&usg=AI4_-kRclN1GsRkt2_eB4YlqCXTsoKwd8w&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi5k9LpuqzxAhVU054KHf
Y1AEoQ9QF6BAgSEAE#imgrc=_CTh_u7wtvFE2M

 

In 2016, a group of scientists suggested that bio-engineering could produce
humans who are allergic to beef:

 

https://twitter.com/i/status/1407258675358715907

 

If these scientists manage to insert the DNA from the pathogen in the Lone
Star tick which causes bovine protein intolerance, they could perhaps create
a virus which is otherwise harmless but causes the infected person to become
unable to devour beef.  Then they could "accidentally" release it, the virus
or pathogen spreads around the globe, demand for beef falls to nearly
nothing, most of the herds around the world could be slaughtered, greatly
reducing emissions of methane, saving the planet from what our government is
telling us is the greatest threat: global warming.

 

Of course not all of us accept the notion that global warming is the
greatest threat to the planet.

 

spike

 

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From sparge at gmail.com  Wed Jun 23 01:13:48 2021
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 21:13:48 -0400
Subject: [ExI] land mammals by weight
In-Reply-To: <00a801d767c5$9011e8b0$b035ba10$@rainier66.com>
References: <00a801d767c5$9011e8b0$b035ba10$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2dRTAhkFa3Er=AYQ2O1NvvBGO4aVgRv5jDJy6ViqdUFTQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 22, 2021 at 8:23 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> In 2016, a group of scientists suggested that bio-engineering could
> produce humans who are allergic to beef:
>
>
>
> https://twitter.com/i/status/1407258675358715907
>

My daughter has the "beef allergy", AKA alpha gal syndrome, and it's
nothing to play with or joke about. It's not a beef allergy, its an allergy
to all mammal* meat, and in more severe cases, all mammals and mammal
products. My daughter can't eat any dairy products, take meds in gelatin
capsules, be around meat on a grill, be in close contact with cats and
dogs, etc. She's had anaphylaxis multiple times and carries an epi pen.

Now, surely, the climate mad scientists could tone it down in their gene
edits, but what about the PETA mad scientists? They'd prefer to kill all
animal abusers immediately.

If these scientists manage to insert the DNA from the pathogen in the Lone
> Star tick which causes bovine protein intolerance,
>

Actually it's a sugar: galactose-alpha-1,3-galactose, AKA alpha gal. PETA
kooks could poison saline or insulin or any injectable substance with tiny
amounts of alpha gal--think how much is in the tick saliva injected by a
tick bite--and cause a huge spike in alpha gal syndrome. Luckily not
everyone exposed to alpha gal becomes allergic to it.

they could perhaps create a virus which is otherwise harmless but causes
> the infected person to become unable to devour beef.  Then they could
> ?accidentally? release it, the virus or pathogen spreads around the globe,
> demand for beef falls to nearly nothing, most of the herds around the world
> could be slaughtered, greatly reducing emissions of methane, saving the
> planet from what our government is telling us is the greatest threat:
> global warming.
>
>
>
> Of course not all of us accept the notion that global warming is the
> greatest threat to the planet.
>

Not only that, but not all of us accept that the impact of meat production
on the climate is significant, or, if it is, that it's necessarily so.

*alpha gal is in all mammals except monkeys and apes

-Dave
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Jun 23 01:20:25 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 18:20:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] land mammals by weight
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2dRTAhkFa3Er=AYQ2O1NvvBGO4aVgRv5jDJy6ViqdUFTQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00a801d767c5$9011e8b0$b035ba10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAM5aL2dRTAhkFa3Er=AYQ2O1NvvBGO4aVgRv5jDJy6ViqdUFTQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000c01d767cd$f26411c0$d72c3540$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> 
Subject: Re: [ExI] land mammals by weight

 

On Tue, Jun 22, 2021 at 8:23 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

 

In 2016, a group of scientists suggested that bio-engineering could produce humans who are allergic to beef:

 

https://twitter.com/i/status/1407258675358715907

 

>?My daughter has the "beef allergy", AKA alpha gal syndrome, and it's nothing to play with or joke about. It's not a beef allergy, its an allergy to all mammal* meat, and in more severe cases, all mammals and mammal products. My daughter can't eat any dairy products, take meds in gelatin capsules, be around meat on a grill, be in close contact with cats and dogs, etc. She's had anaphylaxis multiple times and carries an epi pen?-Dave

 

 

 

 

Owww, dang Dave sorry to hear that.

 

I offered the link because it was so shocking to see what an actual mad scientist looks like: just like any other scientist.  At a conference about reducing human footprint on the planet, he sat there primly and casually suggesting we could create humans allergic to meat. 

 

Dave may the scientists who figured out how to defeat covid find a way to defeat alpha gal syndrome.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

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From avant at sollegro.com  Wed Jun 23 01:26:00 2021
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 18:26:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Magpie Whisperer
Message-ID: <20210622182600.Horde.wQz9eCHmJ2ZX6fKGQhpkMzN@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>


Quoting Bill Wallace:

> Do we suppose that the raven was just having fun?  Or maybe it had a nest
> full of chicks?  (I wish I did!)   bill w

I see ravens everyday at my work, so I think they may well have a nest  
nearby. Also it it happened during the spring. The raven I saw  
attacking the hawk was alone, so maybe its mate was finding food for  
chicks or keeping eggs warm.

Stuart LaForge



From jasonresch at gmail.com  Wed Jun 23 02:53:46 2021
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 21:53:46 -0500
Subject: [ExI] land mammals by weight
In-Reply-To: <00a801d767c5$9011e8b0$b035ba10$@rainier66.com>
References: <00a801d767c5$9011e8b0$b035ba10$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CA+BCJUg=j6xMDEqF807_1HhykeKLFhiiOO5ca8WT798V-9+UaQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 22, 2021, 7:22 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> This comes from XKCD, so it must be true:
>
>
>
> https://xkcd.com/1338/
>
>
>
I found these interesting:

https://youtu.be/sGG-A80Tl5g

https://youtu.be/SdrhpThqlCo

Jason
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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Jun 23 05:21:05 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 22:21:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Magpie Whisperer
In-Reply-To: <007801d767b8$97b00e60$c7102b20$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_arminTu=YwPKF7gnwafD7hfd6Luesbm_RkbCKZ9MTDMQwuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <001101d7676d$48d40670$da7c1350$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNSufbEH_w=yz6LCWUpHH58RrAvBNFqh_K-WHqTL2gHw9g@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 22, 2021 at 3:49 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Alternate theory: if one knows enough about something, I suppose anything
> can become interesting, even used tires and cod.
>

Holy mackerel.  You know how effishiently some folks tuna themselves to cod
books.  Their tales have more jackknives than a school of well-red
herrings, trading codpieces for codly wisdom.

Or maybe they're coded medical texts: what's cod spelled backward?
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Jun 23 13:06:48 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 06:06:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Magpie Whisperer
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSufbEH_w=yz6LCWUpHH58RrAvBNFqh_K-WHqTL2gHw9g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_arminTu=YwPKF7gnwafD7hfd6Luesbm_RkbCKZ9MTDMQwuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <001101d7676d$48d40670$da7c1350$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbhWGscgAO5AGZDx5T-eehZbaEziL9N11zbgZLMqffvZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000e01d76782$9cac5cb0$d6051610$@rainier66.com>
 <001201d76785$2b2d7670$81886350$@rainier66.com>
 <003901d7678a$93ce0820$bb6a1860$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNSWKyxyX2o58HhsR6+xB_Ese4Qm3Mhb2dJB1vNAB+TZdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <002d01d76796$407bced0$c1736c70$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZskDJLn74STQyTJJpZaBmDt8kbv=QJrsM1bdDOkwcqNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007801d767b8$97b00e60$c7102b20$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNSufbEH_w=yz6LCWUpHH58RrAvBNFqh_K-WHqTL2gHw9g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004301d76830$a08775f0$e19661d0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] The Magpie Whisperer

 

On Tue, Jun 22, 2021 at 3:49 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

Alternate theory: if one knows enough about something, I suppose anything can become interesting, even used tires and cod.

 

>?Holy mackerel.  You know how effishiently some folks tuna themselves to cod books.  Their tales have more jackknives than a school of well-red herrings, trading codpieces for codly wisdom.

 

>?Or maybe they're coded medical texts: what's cod spelled backward?

 

 

Adrian you are onto something there.  

 

It isn?t clear what the heck it is, but you are onto something.

 

But think about it: what is up with that whole ?codpiece? business?  Why would men want to stuff a piece of cod down their trousers?  Google, which knows everything, can describe it but is as baffled as we are on explaining why.  Even Billw?s cod book is mystified by that particular fashion absurdity.  In the Renaissance, humanity got way smarter, OK we get that, so before the Ren, we musta been collectively even dumber than we are now.  Oh mercy, is that even possible?  

 

And if that isn?t bad enough, why cod in particular?  Why waste food like that, when we could use something otherwise disposed of, such as sea robin or sheepshead?  

 

OK retract, I know why sheepshead are not used for that purpose:

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=sheepshead+teeth <https://www.google.com/search?q=sheepshead+teeth&ei=1S_TYMfTPMjJ-gSKgr3IBQ&oq=sheepshead+teeth&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAMyAggAMgIIADICCAAyAggAMgUIABCGAzIFCAAQhgMyBQgAEIYDMgUIABCGAzoHCAAQRxCwAzoFCC4QkwI6AgguOggILhDHARCvAUoECEEYAFCgGlivImD_JWgBcAJ4AIABYIgBpwSSAQE3mAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdpesgBCMABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz&ved=0ahUKEwiHkqyl563xAhXIpJ4KHQpBD1kQ4dUDCA4&uact=5> 

 

Oh wait, did I say we?  Not we, they.  Those pre-Renaissance guys, the silly idiots back then, with their ?codpieces.?  Heh, I would never ever do such a thing, wouldn?t even if I had lived back then.  A Renaissance man I am, totally.  I never do that pre-Ren stuff, no, never.

 

But cod is a perfectly acceptable food fish, or was at one time.  Now I will never touch the stuff because one can never know for sure? where that dude has been.  So why cod?  Why not something a bit more suited for that purpose, such as? eel? 

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Jun 23 16:47:42 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 09:47:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Magpie Whisperer
In-Reply-To: <004301d76830$a08775f0$e19661d0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_arminTu=YwPKF7gnwafD7hfd6Luesbm_RkbCKZ9MTDMQwuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <001101d7676d$48d40670$da7c1350$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbhWGscgAO5AGZDx5T-eehZbaEziL9N11zbgZLMqffvZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000e01d76782$9cac5cb0$d6051610$@rainier66.com>
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 <003901d7678a$93ce0820$bb6a1860$@rainier66.com>
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 <002d01d76796$407bced0$c1736c70$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZskDJLn74STQyTJJpZaBmDt8kbv=QJrsM1bdDOkwcqNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007801d767b8$97b00e60$c7102b20$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNSufbEH_w=yz6LCWUpHH58RrAvBNFqh_K-WHqTL2gHw9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <004301d76830$a08775f0$e19661d0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSMC6xRGUbkp_-MJ83DY2EL3svR_3_6dLtkjTD+TwS-gQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 23, 2021 at 6:09 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>  Adrian you are onto something there.
>
>
>
> It isn?t clear what the heck it is, but you are onto something.
>

As has often been the case of late.


> But think about it: what is up with that whole ?codpiece? business?
>

Back then "cod" also meant "bag", and got used for "scrotum" in that
context.
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Jun 23 19:09:28 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 12:09:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Magpie Whisperer
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSMC6xRGUbkp_-MJ83DY2EL3svR_3_6dLtkjTD+TwS-gQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_arminTu=YwPKF7gnwafD7hfd6Luesbm_RkbCKZ9MTDMQwuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <001101d7676d$48d40670$da7c1350$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbhWGscgAO5AGZDx5T-eehZbaEziL9N11zbgZLMqffvZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000e01d76782$9cac5cb0$d6051610$@rainier66.com>
 <001201d76785$2b2d7670$81886350$@rainier66.com>
 <003901d7678a$93ce0820$bb6a1860$@rainier66.com>
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 <002d01d76796$407bced0$c1736c70$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZskDJLn74STQyTJJpZaBmDt8kbv=QJrsM1bdDOkwcqNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007801d767b8$97b00e60$c7102b20$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNSufbEH_w=yz6LCWUpHH58RrAvBNFqh_K-WHqTL2gHw9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <004301d76830$a08775f0$e19661d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNSMC6xRGUbkp_-MJ83DY2EL3svR_3_6dLtkjTD+TwS-gQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002601d76863$4aa86580$dff93080$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
?

 

But think about it: what is up with that whole ?codpiece? business?

 

>?Back then "cod" also meant "bag", and got used for "scrotum" in that context.

 

 

Well sure Adrian, that?s the story they told everybody.  But we know what they were REALLY doing.

 

Think about it.  Suppose he had an actual literal cod in his drawers.  How would he be keeping it in place?  Duct tape?  HAH!  No, they didn?t even have ducts in those days.  We know how they were wearing them, and that would also explain the bizarre fashion statement.  As unfathomable as fashions are, both then and now, this particular ?codpiece? business wasn?t really about fashion.  They were doing it because it felt good.  And that would also explain how they kept the dang thing in place, ja?

 

Of course they couldn?t actually say in polite company what it was all about, but we know, do we not?  So the whole cod = bag cover story was invented, hoping we na?ve people hundreds of years in the future wouldn?t know what those fellers were up to.  But we figured it out.  How?  We asked the male ballerinos why their costumes look like that.

 

This is all fun and games until we are hit by the stunning realization? that we are all direct descendants of the kind of people who would do that to a hapless fish and claim it was a fashion thing.

 

spike

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Jun 23 20:30:15 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 15:30:15 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The Magpie Whisperer
In-Reply-To: <002601d76863$4aa86580$dff93080$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_arminTu=YwPKF7gnwafD7hfd6Luesbm_RkbCKZ9MTDMQwuQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <002d01d76796$407bced0$c1736c70$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZskDJLn74STQyTJJpZaBmDt8kbv=QJrsM1bdDOkwcqNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007801d767b8$97b00e60$c7102b20$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNSufbEH_w=yz6LCWUpHH58RrAvBNFqh_K-WHqTL2gHw9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <004301d76830$a08775f0$e19661d0$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaSKy3Ho4Y1z-hfCo7BizEqwLAvgy6i_NJ-NYkq_kAr_A@mail.gmail.com>

Typical males:  they turned a fashion ornament, probably created by those
fashion designers who love to humiliate men and women, into a contest as to
who had the largest one.  Satires on such probably doomed them.  bill w

On Wed, Jun 23, 2021 at 2:12 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
> *?*
>
>
>
> But think about it: what is up with that whole ?codpiece? business?
>
>
>
> >?Back then "cod" also meant "bag", and got used for "scrotum" in that
> context.
>
>
>
>
>
> Well sure Adrian, that?s the story they told everybody.  But we know what
> they were REALLY doing.
>
>
>
> Think about it.  Suppose he had an actual literal cod in his drawers.  How
> would he be keeping it in place?  Duct tape?  HAH!  No, they didn?t even
> have ducts in those days.  We know how they were wearing them, and that
> would also explain the bizarre fashion statement.  As unfathomable as
> fashions are, both then and now, this particular ?codpiece? business wasn?t
> really about fashion.  They were doing it because it felt good.  And that
> would also explain how they kept the dang thing in place, ja?
>
>
>
> Of course they couldn?t actually say in polite company what it was all
> about, but we know, do we not?  So the whole cod = bag cover story was
> invented, hoping we na?ve people hundreds of years in the future wouldn?t
> know what those fellers were up to.  But we figured it out.  How?  We asked
> the male ballerinos why their costumes look like that.
>
>
>
> This is all fun and games until we are hit by the stunning realization?
> that we are all direct descendants of the kind of people who would do that
> to a hapless fish and claim it was a fashion thing.
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Thu Jun 24 01:18:28 2021
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 21:18:28 -0400
Subject: [ExI] land mammals by weight
In-Reply-To: <00a801d767c5$9011e8b0$b035ba10$@rainier66.com>
References: <00a801d767c5$9011e8b0$b035ba10$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <BDE59CE6-5302-4707-A14B-9AFD14260748@gmail.com>

Vegans and Vegetarians might also take it to ?keep on the wagon?, so to speak. 

SR Ballard

> On Jun 22, 2021, at 8:23 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> ?
>  
> This comes from XKCD, so it must be true:
>  
> https://xkcd.com/1338/
>  
>  
> <image002.jpg>
>  
>  
> It agrees with this:
>  
> https://www.google.com/search?q=chart+showing+biomass+cows&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=XJjmWBV3BnWowM%252C8Vx0ajCtOBOMiM%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kRclN1GsRkt2_eB4YlqCXTsoKwd8w&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi5k9LpuqzxAhVU054KHfY1AEoQ9QF6BAgSEAE#imgrc=_CTh_u7wtvFE2M
>  
> In 2016, a group of scientists suggested that bio-engineering could produce humans who are allergic to beef:
>  
> https://twitter.com/i/status/1407258675358715907
>  
> If these scientists manage to insert the DNA from the pathogen in the Lone Star tick which causes bovine protein intolerance, they could perhaps create a virus which is otherwise harmless but causes the infected person to become unable to devour beef.  Then they could ?accidentally? release it, the virus or pathogen spreads around the globe, demand for beef falls to nearly nothing, most of the herds around the world could be slaughtered, greatly reducing emissions of methane, saving the planet from what our government is telling us is the greatest threat: global warming.
>  
> Of course not all of us accept the notion that global warming is the greatest threat to the planet.
>  
> spike
>  
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Jun 24 15:45:14 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 08:45:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] you had ONE JOB...
Message-ID: <004401d7690f$ed7172a0$c85457e0$@rainier66.com>

 

I initially gave the local sign painter a 67% accuracy rating for having six
of the nine letters oriented correctly.  Then it occurred to me that three
of the letters are bilaterally symmetrical about the horizontal axis, so
those don't count as correct (since either way is correct.)  If we argue
that the K should get half credit for being asymmetrical about the vertical
axis, we must note that the A is symmetrical about the vertical axis, so
that one only gets half credit too.  By that reasoning, the A and K together
only get one point when combined.

 

If we take those out the K, the I and the O, we have six remaining letters,
only three of which are correctly oriented.   I would hafta give that job a
50% success rate, or epic fail.  Placing the stencils at random have an even
chance of meeting or exceeding this pathetic performance.  I would offer an
epic fail rating even before noting that the area adjacent to a handicap
space must be demarcated in blue rather than white.

 

Note that if the intention was to convey to the occupants of the building
the puzzling message GNIKRAP ON, then five of the nine letters are in the
correct orientation.  If so, the sign-painter's success rating is five of
nine or 55.6%, which is still grossly incompetent, but an improvement over
50%.  All she needs to do is define the phrase.  Perhaps it is a message
that urges performers to continue with the entertainment form considered to
be derived from and a subset of rap music associated with the obscure Gnik
culture of Tannu Tuva.  This would offer an explanation (even if wildly
implausible) that the message GNIKRAP ON was the original intention, with
only four of nine letters in error.

 

 



 

Do pardon please.  I am struggling to not think about that horrifying
building collapse in Florida.  Silliness is a well-known psychological
escape mechanism.

 

spike

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From bronto at pobox.com  Thu Jun 24 17:04:10 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 10:04:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] you had ONE JOB...
In-Reply-To: <004401d7690f$ed7172a0$c85457e0$@rainier66.com>
References: <004401d7690f$ed7172a0$c85457e0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <5f98a72b-825c-0088-43ec-57bdce9723c3@pobox.com>

On 2021-6-24 08:45, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:
> I initially gave the local sign painter a 67% accuracy rating
> for having six of the nine letters oriented correctly.

IF the maximum score for each letter is 3 minus the number of ways it 
could be reflected or rotated (half a turn) without changing:
	          N O  P A R K I N G
	possible  2 0  3 2 3 2 0 2 3 = 17
	actual    0 0  3 2 3 2 0 0 0 = 10


I once found a worker pressing letters into a new sidewalk.
Had I not happened by, it might still read THOAMS.

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org

From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Jun 24 17:25:21 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 10:25:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] you had ONE JOB...
In-Reply-To: <5f98a72b-825c-0088-43ec-57bdce9723c3@pobox.com>
References: <004401d7690f$ed7172a0$c85457e0$@rainier66.com>
 <5f98a72b-825c-0088-43ec-57bdce9723c3@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <005f01d7691d$e9d75390$bd85fab0$@rainier66.com>


>...> On Behalf Of Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat

Subject: Re: [ExI] you had ONE JOB...

On 2021-6-24 08:45, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:
> I initially gave the local sign painter a 67% accuracy rating for 
> having six of the nine letters oriented correctly.

IF the maximum score for each letter is 3 minus the number of ways it could
be reflected or rotated (half a turn) without changing:
	          N O  P A R K I N G
	possible  2 0  3 2 3 2 0 2 3 = 17
	actual    0 0  3 2 3 2 0 0 0 = 10


I once found a worker pressing letters into a new sidewalk.
Had I not happened by, it might still read THOAMS.

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org
_______________________________________________



Anton, years ago I picked up an odd speech habit of using the term "way" to
mean "extremely."  One can suppose it is an old guy who substitutes "way"
for "fucking" which is the preferred modifier adverb in our rap-influenced
times.

The parking lot at the local school wanted to indicate to a driver that she
was travelling opposite to the intended traffic direction.  Said errant
driver would encounter the second word first, then the first word second.
So... they switched the words, but both words are simultaneously visible, so
the parking lot announces "WAY WRONG."

One could reasonably argue that the new meaning would apply to those
travelling against the prevailing traffic direction, but just the same in my
opinion, it is fucking wrong.

It isn't working Anton: I can't get my head away from that Miami building
collapse.  So disturbing.  I have many friends and family, people I care
about, in Florida.  We know the risk of sinkholes, which I suspect is what
caused this building to fall (without further knowledge of the circumstances
it feels like the most likely explanation.)

spike  


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Jun 24 18:14:53 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 13:14:53 -0500
Subject: [ExI] you had ONE JOB...
In-Reply-To: <005f01d7691d$e9d75390$bd85fab0$@rainier66.com>
References: <004401d7690f$ed7172a0$c85457e0$@rainier66.com>
 <5f98a72b-825c-0088-43ec-57bdce9723c3@pobox.com>
 <005f01d7691d$e9d75390$bd85fab0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaA1JzkvN6ofCp-qt7GKHTNPg6n4FZqgzD+DdD1PU_W=Q@mail.gmail.com>

One can suppose it is an old guy who substitutes "way"
for "fucking" which is the preferred modifier adverb in our rap-influenced
times.   I hope it gets worn out so that it comes to be of little appeal as
'darn'.
But you know, we did it:  we thought smoking and drinking and cussing and
bragging about our pitiful sex life were the signs of a mature person.
When I
was 15 I thought that being 21 was the be-all, end-all state of being an
adult.  Then I got
 to be 21 and thought:  this is it?  Maturity.? I don't think so.  As far
as I am
concerned I still have work to do regarding maturity.  bill w


On Thu, Jun 24, 2021 at 12:27 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> >...> On Behalf Of Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat
>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] you had ONE JOB...
>
> On 2021-6-24 08:45, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:
> > I initially gave the local sign painter a 67% accuracy rating for
> > having six of the nine letters oriented correctly.
>
> IF the maximum score for each letter is 3 minus the number of ways it could
> be reflected or rotated (half a turn) without changing:
>                   N O  P A R K I N G
>         possible  2 0  3 2 3 2 0 2 3 = 17
>         actual    0 0  3 2 3 2 0 0 0 = 10
>
>
> I once found a worker pressing letters into a new sidewalk.
> Had I not happened by, it might still read THOAMS.
>
> --
> *\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> Anton, years ago I picked up an odd speech habit of using the term "way" to
> mean "extremely."  One can suppose it is an old guy who substitutes "way"
> for "fucking" which is the preferred modifier adverb in our rap-influenced
> times.
>
> The parking lot at the local school wanted to indicate to a driver that she
> was travelling opposite to the intended traffic direction.  Said errant
> driver would encounter the second word first, then the first word second.
> So... they switched the words, but both words are simultaneously visible,
> so
> the parking lot announces "WAY WRONG."
>
> One could reasonably argue that the new meaning would apply to those
> travelling against the prevailing traffic direction, but just the same in
> my
> opinion, it is fucking wrong.
>
> It isn't working Anton: I can't get my head away from that Miami building
> collapse.  So disturbing.  I have many friends and family, people I care
> about, in Florida.  We know the risk of sinkholes, which I suspect is what
> caused this building to fall (without further knowledge of the
> circumstances
> it feels like the most likely explanation.)
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Jun 24 18:30:17 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 11:30:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] you had ONE JOB...
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaA1JzkvN6ofCp-qt7GKHTNPg6n4FZqgzD+DdD1PU_W=Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <004401d7690f$ed7172a0$c85457e0$@rainier66.com>
 <5f98a72b-825c-0088-43ec-57bdce9723c3@pobox.com>
 <005f01d7691d$e9d75390$bd85fab0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEaA1JzkvN6ofCp-qt7GKHTNPg6n4FZqgzD+DdD1PU_W=Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006501d76926$fc188ca0$f449a5e0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] you had ONE JOB...

 

>>?One can suppose it is an old guy who substitutes "way"
for "fucking" which is the preferred modifier adverb in our rap-influenced
times.   

 

 

>?I hope it gets worn out so that it comes to be of little appeal as 'darn'?

 

Little appeal as darn?  I use darn and durn a lot.  Granted I am worn out, certainly my manners are: very retro, intentionally.  The people I regard as well-mannered humans are nearly all at least 20 years my senior.  Fun counterexample: Anders Sandberg.  Such a gentleman, 10 yrs my junior.

 

>?  As far as I am concerned I still have work to do regarding maturity.  bill w

 

As do we all, sir.

 

I am surprised ExI didn?t erupt with chatter and speculation about that Miami building collapse.  I understand we don?t have all the facts, almost none so far.  But I consider one of the scenarios more plausible than the alternatives: a sinkhole dropped a major support pylon which triggered a chain-reaction collapse.  There are reasons to doubt however: A building is usually designed to handle having one support fail.  I cannot wrap my head around the notion that a structure like that has multiple single-point failure modes.

 

The debris pile in a few of the early photos doesn?t look tall enough, which suggests to me that most of the debris is in the ground.  Ideas?

 

spike

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Jun 24 18:49:13 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 13:49:13 -0500
Subject: [ExI] you had ONE JOB...
In-Reply-To: <006501d76926$fc188ca0$f449a5e0$@rainier66.com>
References: <004401d7690f$ed7172a0$c85457e0$@rainier66.com>
 <5f98a72b-825c-0088-43ec-57bdce9723c3@pobox.com>
 <005f01d7691d$e9d75390$bd85fab0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEaA1JzkvN6ofCp-qt7GKHTNPg6n4FZqgzD+DdD1PU_W=Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <006501d76926$fc188ca0$f449a5e0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbjuCeqzCh16CrjEv6iU5dC8Xefyr075rrsupGUg+kbeA@mail.gmail.com>

We had a sinkhole where I taught college:  at least 40 feet deep and 100
feet across.  No building was there at the time, but it was in a hot area
for real estate and probably caused a crash in that market.  bill w

On Thu, Jun 24, 2021 at 1:32 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] you had ONE JOB...
>
>
>
> >>?One can suppose it is an old guy who substitutes "way"
> for "fucking" which is the preferred modifier adverb in our rap-influenced
> times.
>
>
>
>
>
> >?I hope it gets worn out so that it comes to be of little appeal as
> 'darn'?
>
>
>
> Little appeal as darn?  I use darn and durn a lot.  Granted I am worn out,
> certainly my manners are: very retro, intentionally.  The people I regard
> as well-mannered humans are nearly all at least 20 years my senior.  Fun
> counterexample: Anders Sandberg.  Such a gentleman, 10 yrs my junior.
>
>
>
> >?  As far as I am concerned I still have work to do regarding maturity.
> bill w
>
>
>
> As do we all, sir.
>
>
>
> I am surprised ExI didn?t erupt with chatter and speculation about that
> Miami building collapse.  I understand we don?t have all the facts, almost
> none so far.  But I consider one of the scenarios more plausible than the
> alternatives: a sinkhole dropped a major support pylon which triggered a
> chain-reaction collapse.  There are reasons to doubt however: A building is
> usually designed to handle having one support fail.  I cannot wrap my head
> around the notion that a structure like that has multiple single-point
> failure modes.
>
>
>
> The debris pile in a few of the early photos doesn?t look tall enough,
> which suggests to me that most of the debris is in the ground.  Ideas?
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From zoielsoy at gmail.com  Thu Jun 24 23:51:46 2021
From: zoielsoy at gmail.com (Angel Z. Lopez)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 19:51:46 -0400
Subject: [ExI] quantitative hedge fund
Message-ID: <CALHxhTS+kB7NN9qpvbhW76ez2-hVGY5t0j574mLmBVqB718KMg@mail.gmail.com>

Can any one recommend to me an open quantitative hedge fund?or a referral?
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From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Jun 25 12:18:47 2021
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 13:18:47 +0100
Subject: [ExI] World's Fastest Electric Motorcycle
Message-ID: <CAL_armiMex3CWaWJcc68GDZ+4YmKz8BpQb=EaxYa34eCDJKXKQ@mail.gmail.com>

"World's fastest electric motorcycle" uses radical big hole technology
By Loz Blain  June 24, 2021

<https://newatlas.com/motorcycles/wmc-2wd-electric-motorcycle-v-air/>

Quotes:
There's no motorcycle on the planet like this one. British company
White Motorcycle Concepts (WMC) has put land speed record holders on
notice with a 2WD, hydraulically hub-steered electric motorcycle,
designed around a giant hole. The company says the WMC250EV should be
capable of more than 250 mph (402 km/h) thanks to a massive 69 percent
reduction in drag.
----
White's plan is to prove the technology with an electric land speed
record, and then roll it out into the electric streetbike market. To
that end, he's patented the "V-Air" big-hole technology
internationally, and hopes he can bring something similar ? albeit
nowhere near as extreme or personally tailored ? to the street.
-----------------------


The idea is that the innovative venturi hole produces extreme
reduction in air resistance and, in turn, for street use this should
produce longer range, or smaller batteries, or increased speed, or a
combination of these benefits,

BillK


From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Jun 25 14:01:00 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 07:01:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] World's Fastest Electric Motorcycle
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armiMex3CWaWJcc68GDZ+4YmKz8BpQb=EaxYa34eCDJKXKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armiMex3CWaWJcc68GDZ+4YmKz8BpQb=EaxYa34eCDJKXKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001101d769ca$87cf9ec0$976edc40$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat
Subject: [ExI] World's Fastest Electric Motorcycle

"World's fastest electric motorcycle" uses radical big hole technology By Loz Blain  June 24, 2021

<https://newatlas.com/motorcycles/wmc-2wd-electric-motorcycle-v-air/>

...
-----------------------


>...The idea is that the innovative venturi hole produces extreme reduction in air resistance and, in turn, for street use this should produce longer range, or smaller batteries, or increased speed, or a combination of these benefits,

BillK

_______________________________________________






Cool!  I wouldn't be too surprised if it is real.  It makes sense.  The reason motorcycle top speeds are as low as they are (200 mph or about 320 kph for the fast production bikes) is all about wind resistance.  With gas burners, that problem is inherent.  Electrics I don't think the drag coefficient needs to be as high.

Let's see where it goes.

spike



From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Fri Jun 25 18:35:31 2021
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 12:35:31 -0600
Subject: [ExI] World's Fastest Electric Motorcycle
In-Reply-To: <001101d769ca$87cf9ec0$976edc40$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armiMex3CWaWJcc68GDZ+4YmKz8BpQb=EaxYa34eCDJKXKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <001101d769ca$87cf9ec0$976edc40$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-ontzzRytkUysf7c4f_i=Pyv3XWWdugZcxMkMCWXn5aupaw@mail.gmail.com>

Right, but the hole doesn't seem necessary to me.  After all, wings utilize
the "venturi" effect, without a hole in the middle of them.  Wouldn't the
hole just add lots of extra mass and increased drag, to achieve the more
complex structure?  Wouldn't a simple tear drop shape, without a hole, be
more efficient?





On Fri, Jun 25, 2021 at 8:02 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
> BillK via extropy-chat
> Subject: [ExI] World's Fastest Electric Motorcycle
>
> "World's fastest electric motorcycle" uses radical big hole technology By
> Loz Blain  June 24, 2021
>
> <https://newatlas.com/motorcycles/wmc-2wd-electric-motorcycle-v-air/>
>
> ...
> -----------------------
>
>
> >...The idea is that the innovative venturi hole produces extreme
> reduction in air resistance and, in turn, for street use this should
> produce longer range, or smaller batteries, or increased speed, or a
> combination of these benefits,
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Cool!  I wouldn't be too surprised if it is real.  It makes sense.  The
> reason motorcycle top speeds are as low as they are (200 mph or about 320
> kph for the fast production bikes) is all about wind resistance.  With gas
> burners, that problem is inherent.  Electrics I don't think the drag
> coefficient needs to be as high.
>
> Let's see where it goes.
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Jun 25 18:42:47 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 11:42:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] World's Fastest Electric Motorcycle
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-ontzzRytkUysf7c4f_i=Pyv3XWWdugZcxMkMCWXn5aupaw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armiMex3CWaWJcc68GDZ+4YmKz8BpQb=EaxYa34eCDJKXKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <001101d769ca$87cf9ec0$976edc40$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-ontzzRytkUysf7c4f_i=Pyv3XWWdugZcxMkMCWXn5aupaw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002b01d769f1$e5285720$af790560$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com> 
Subject: Re: [ExI] World's Fastest Electric Motorcycle

 

 

>?Right, but the hole doesn't seem necessary to me.  After all, wings utilize the "venturi" effect, without a hole in the middle of them.  Wouldn't the hole just add lots of extra mass and increased drag, to achieve the more complex structure?  Wouldn't a simple tear drop shape, without a hole, be more efficient?

 

 

 

 

Brent I interpreted that is a way to accommodate more space for batteries and more surface area for air cooling.  Batteries are efficient but when drawing power out of them at the rate required for high speed run, they also need cooling.

 

This design might also be partially about ergonomics.  The rider?s legs need to go somewhere.  For top speed records, it is all about frontal area and coefficient of drag, as demonstrated by this 1948 record breaker:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollie_Free

 

At first glance, the hole bike looked absurd.  But upon further contemplation, that configuration makes sense.

 

spike

 

 

 

On Fri, Jun 25, 2021 at 8:02 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> > On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat
Subject: [ExI] World's Fastest Electric Motorcycle

"World's fastest electric motorcycle" uses radical big hole technology By Loz Blain  June 24, 2021

<https://newatlas.com/motorcycles/wmc-2wd-electric-motorcycle-v-air/>

...
-----------------------


>...The idea is that the innovative venturi hole produces extreme reduction in air resistance and, in turn, for street use this should produce longer range, or smaller batteries, or increased speed, or a combination of these benefits,

BillK

_______________________________________________





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From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Jun 25 18:57:08 2021
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 19:57:08 +0100
Subject: [ExI] World's Fastest Electric Motorcycle
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-ontzzRytkUysf7c4f_i=Pyv3XWWdugZcxMkMCWXn5aupaw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armiMex3CWaWJcc68GDZ+4YmKz8BpQb=EaxYa34eCDJKXKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <001101d769ca$87cf9ec0$976edc40$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-ontzzRytkUysf7c4f_i=Pyv3XWWdugZcxMkMCWXn5aupaw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armh1tSrOZF_cxt8-nvaPNtNDSr4re_ioStzadC8+pqQcWg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 25 Jun 2021 at 19:38, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
> Right, but the hole doesn't seem necessary to me.  After all, wings utilize the "venturi" effect, without a hole in the middle of them.  Wouldn't the hole just add lots of extra mass and increased drag, to achieve the more complex structure?  Wouldn't a simple tear drop shape, without a hole, be more efficient?
>
> _______________________________________________


You can't argue against reality!  It hurts!  :)

According to the article they have done wind-tunnel testing to check the design.

Quote:
WMC has tested this bike, Rob included, at the Horiba MIRA facility
near Hinckley, and says the concept reduces drag by an enormous 69
percent compared against "the world leading motorcycle," with a drag
coefficient of just 0.118. That's absolutely nuts. Even the mighty SSC
Tuatara, currently the world's fastest production car at 282.9 mph
(455.3 km/h), can only manage a drag coefficient of 0.279.
--------------

BillK


From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Jun 25 19:17:27 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 12:17:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] World's Fastest Electric Motorcycle
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armh1tSrOZF_cxt8-nvaPNtNDSr4re_ioStzadC8+pqQcWg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armiMex3CWaWJcc68GDZ+4YmKz8BpQb=EaxYa34eCDJKXKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <001101d769ca$87cf9ec0$976edc40$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-ontzzRytkUysf7c4f_i=Pyv3XWWdugZcxMkMCWXn5aupaw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armh1tSrOZF_cxt8-nvaPNtNDSr4re_ioStzadC8+pqQcWg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001101d769f6$bd279c40$3776d4c0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
BillK via extropy-chat

_______________________________________________


>...You can't argue against reality!  It hurts!  :)

>...According to the article they have done wind-tunnel testing to check the
design.

Quote:
WMC has tested this bike, Rob included, at the Horiba MIRA facility near
Hinckley, and says the concept reduces drag by an enormous 69 percent
compared against "the world leading motorcycle," with a drag coefficient of
just 0.118. That's absolutely nuts. Even the mighty SSC Tuatara, currently
the world's fastest production car at 282.9 mph
(455.3 km/h), can only manage a drag coefficient of 0.279.
--------------

BillK

_______________________________________________


This makes sense to me.  A gasoline engine very necessarily has an
aerodynamically dirty surface: the radiator.  That cannot be streamlined.
Its frontal area cannot be reduced beyond a point: that motor just hasta
dump a lotta waste heat into the air.  There is no other known way.

The electric bike doesn't need to be in thermal equilibrium for top speed
record runs: it is OK if those batteries heat up.  That advantage doesn't
really apply to the gas motor: those have a narrow optimal performance band
for temperature.  The radiator keeps it there.  

A battery bike could start cool, make a high-speed run, batteries end hot,
they have up to an hour to let them cool before attempting a second run in
the opposite direction.  Traditional rules for top speed records: two
passes, both directions within one hour.

I won't buy one of the hole bikes.  I sold my last sport bike 15 yrs ago and
decided to not ride those anymore.  Still have my touring bikes.

spike


From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Jun 25 19:37:16 2021
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 20:37:16 +0100
Subject: [ExI] World's Fastest Electric Motorcycle
In-Reply-To: <001101d769f6$bd279c40$3776d4c0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armiMex3CWaWJcc68GDZ+4YmKz8BpQb=EaxYa34eCDJKXKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <001101d769ca$87cf9ec0$976edc40$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-ontzzRytkUysf7c4f_i=Pyv3XWWdugZcxMkMCWXn5aupaw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armh1tSrOZF_cxt8-nvaPNtNDSr4re_ioStzadC8+pqQcWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001101d769f6$bd279c40$3776d4c0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhqRuPGOnphx4+LA8OmMHCwoAQez=jetQKw_=sBHxmp_A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 25 Jun 2021 at 20:19, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> This makes sense to me.  A gasoline engine very necessarily has an
> aerodynamically dirty surface: the radiator.  That cannot be streamlined.
> Its frontal area cannot be reduced beyond a point: that motor just hasta
> dump a lotta waste heat into the air.  There is no other known way.
>
> The electric bike doesn't need to be in thermal equilibrium for top speed
> record runs: it is OK if those batteries heat up.  That advantage doesn't
> really apply to the gas motor: those have a narrow optimal performance band
> for temperature.  The radiator keeps it there.
>
> A battery bike could start cool, make a high-speed run, batteries end hot,
> they have up to an hour to let them cool before attempting a second run in
> the opposite direction.  Traditional rules for top speed records: two
> passes, both directions within one hour.
>
> I won't buy one of the hole bikes.  I sold my last sport bike 15 yrs ago and
> decided to not ride those anymore.  Still have my touring bikes.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


I think the speed record is mainly to get attention and prove the design works.
They have other more modest ideas to put into mass production.
The streamlining could double the range of touring electric bikes.
Maybe all electric bikes will have to use this design in future.


BillK

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 25 20:13:50 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 15:13:50 -0500
Subject: [ExI] ok I'll post something
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEa=Y7yUdeQdBr8ExR70T3__2GD+1VkBsz+ZQWx8JDErLg@mail.gmail.com>

question on Quora - why do people make bad decisions?  My answer, to be
added to by you smart people:

low IQ, low common sense, succumbed to cognitive biases, believed common
myths and superstitions, overcome by lust, greed, envy, forgetfulness of
credit balance, followed parents? advice or some other inept person, forgot
what happened last time, was pushed into trying to please a woman or man,
did not do any research, was drunk or stoned or similar, was never taught
how to think and make decisions, has maturity problems and likely many more
reasons      bill w
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Jun 25 20:19:04 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 13:19:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] World's Fastest Electric Motorcycle
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhqRuPGOnphx4+LA8OmMHCwoAQez=jetQKw_=sBHxmp_A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armiMex3CWaWJcc68GDZ+4YmKz8BpQb=EaxYa34eCDJKXKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <001101d769ca$87cf9ec0$976edc40$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-ontzzRytkUysf7c4f_i=Pyv3XWWdugZcxMkMCWXn5aupaw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armh1tSrOZF_cxt8-nvaPNtNDSr4re_ioStzadC8+pqQcWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001101d769f6$bd279c40$3776d4c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armhqRuPGOnphx4+LA8OmMHCwoAQez=jetQKw_=sBHxmp_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000d01d769ff$589d9be0$09d8d3a0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
BillK via extropy-chat

> _______________________________________________


I think the speed record is mainly to get attention and prove the design
works.
They have other more modest ideas to put into mass production.
The streamlining could double the range of touring electric bikes.
Maybe all electric bikes will have to use this design in future.


BillK
_______________________________________________


I can think of a cool advantage from a mechanical design point of view:  The
top half and bottom half could be detachable.  This wouldn't be specifically
for better transportability (that is a free bonus) but rather about operator
fit.

A good part of the reason I never bought another sport bike is that over the
years engines became more compact which led to frames becoming more compact,
which resulted in most (well all) of the newer sport bikes were too small
for me, every last one of them.  I am not a big guy (6ft even) but in these
new sport bikes, my knees are in the way regardless of how I orient myself.
The bikes themselves are marvelous achievements of engineering and faaaast
as all get out.  But they got rid of weight by scaling those things down.
So anyone over about 5 ft 9 feels crammed in there.

So... imagine... a prole could get a custom top end built, then any of the
speedy bottom ends would accommodate it.  She could get a custom fit top end
(where the top half of the bike is analogous to a custom saddle on modern
bikes) and attach a monster bottom to it.  I could get one made for tall and
long-legged.

Notice the guy in BillK's photo.

https://newatlas.com/motorcycles/wmc-2wd-electric-motorcycle-v-air/

Note the location of his knees and elbows, head and ass.  I would be
surprised if he is any more than about 5 ft 8.  If I had that bike, where
would the rest of me fit?  

But if I could get a scaled-up version, I might take up sport bikes again.
Cool!

spike 


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 25 20:25:06 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 15:25:06 -0500
Subject: [ExI] World's Fastest Electric Motorcycle
In-Reply-To: <000d01d769ff$589d9be0$09d8d3a0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armiMex3CWaWJcc68GDZ+4YmKz8BpQb=EaxYa34eCDJKXKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <001101d769ca$87cf9ec0$976edc40$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-ontzzRytkUysf7c4f_i=Pyv3XWWdugZcxMkMCWXn5aupaw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armh1tSrOZF_cxt8-nvaPNtNDSr4re_ioStzadC8+pqQcWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001101d769f6$bd279c40$3776d4c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armhqRuPGOnphx4+LA8OmMHCwoAQez=jetQKw_=sBHxmp_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <000d01d769ff$589d9be0$09d8d3a0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaz8jLHbp9=3BONHVj9koZUxhTfJ1hAW+FJp3rVTguVZA@mail.gmail.com>

spike, don't they make bikes where the driver is in a prone position?  If
not, why not?   bill w

On Fri, Jun 25, 2021 at 3:21 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
> BillK via extropy-chat
>
> > _______________________________________________
>
>
> I think the speed record is mainly to get attention and prove the design
> works.
> They have other more modest ideas to put into mass production.
> The streamlining could double the range of touring electric bikes.
> Maybe all electric bikes will have to use this design in future.
>
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> I can think of a cool advantage from a mechanical design point of view:
> The
> top half and bottom half could be detachable.  This wouldn't be
> specifically
> for better transportability (that is a free bonus) but rather about
> operator
> fit.
>
> A good part of the reason I never bought another sport bike is that over
> the
> years engines became more compact which led to frames becoming more
> compact,
> which resulted in most (well all) of the newer sport bikes were too small
> for me, every last one of them.  I am not a big guy (6ft even) but in these
> new sport bikes, my knees are in the way regardless of how I orient myself.
> The bikes themselves are marvelous achievements of engineering and faaaast
> as all get out.  But they got rid of weight by scaling those things down.
> So anyone over about 5 ft 9 feels crammed in there.
>
> So... imagine... a prole could get a custom top end built, then any of the
> speedy bottom ends would accommodate it.  She could get a custom fit top
> end
> (where the top half of the bike is analogous to a custom saddle on modern
> bikes) and attach a monster bottom to it.  I could get one made for tall
> and
> long-legged.
>
> Notice the guy in BillK's photo.
>
> https://newatlas.com/motorcycles/wmc-2wd-electric-motorcycle-v-air/
>
> Note the location of his knees and elbows, head and ass.  I would be
> surprised if he is any more than about 5 ft 8.  If I had that bike, where
> would the rest of me fit?
>
> But if I could get a scaled-up version, I might take up sport bikes again.
> Cool!
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Jun 25 20:37:33 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 13:37:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] World's Fastest Electric Motorcycle
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaz8jLHbp9=3BONHVj9koZUxhTfJ1hAW+FJp3rVTguVZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armiMex3CWaWJcc68GDZ+4YmKz8BpQb=EaxYa34eCDJKXKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <001101d769ca$87cf9ec0$976edc40$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-ontzzRytkUysf7c4f_i=Pyv3XWWdugZcxMkMCWXn5aupaw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armh1tSrOZF_cxt8-nvaPNtNDSr4re_ioStzadC8+pqQcWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001101d769f6$bd279c40$3776d4c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armhqRuPGOnphx4+LA8OmMHCwoAQez=jetQKw_=sBHxmp_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <000d01d769ff$589d9be0$09d8d3a0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEaz8jLHbp9=3BONHVj9koZUxhTfJ1hAW+FJp3rVTguVZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001e01d76a01$ed6798a0$c836c9e0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat

Subject: Re: [ExI] World's Fastest Electric Motorcycle

 

spike, don't they make bikes where the driver is in a prone position?  If not, why not?   bill w

 

 

Think long term comfort.  Most bikers are men?

 

Also? think of the rider?s neck having to look forward and side to side a lot.  Double owwww?

 

Another consideration: that might make the foot controls difficult.  The left foot actuates the shifter and the right foot the rear brake.  Both need mechanical linkages to the motor.  The electric bike might not need a shifter, but ordinarily you have two separate brake controls.

 

spike

 

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From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Jun 25 21:29:13 2021
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 22:29:13 +0100
Subject: [ExI] World's Fastest Electric Motorcycle
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaz8jLHbp9=3BONHVj9koZUxhTfJ1hAW+FJp3rVTguVZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armiMex3CWaWJcc68GDZ+4YmKz8BpQb=EaxYa34eCDJKXKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <001101d769ca$87cf9ec0$976edc40$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-ontzzRytkUysf7c4f_i=Pyv3XWWdugZcxMkMCWXn5aupaw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armh1tSrOZF_cxt8-nvaPNtNDSr4re_ioStzadC8+pqQcWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001101d769f6$bd279c40$3776d4c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armhqRuPGOnphx4+LA8OmMHCwoAQez=jetQKw_=sBHxmp_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <000d01d769ff$589d9be0$09d8d3a0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEaz8jLHbp9=3BONHVj9koZUxhTfJ1hAW+FJp3rVTguVZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgfJMkp3O3aC8CvgBYLHT3OY0uV+99LiPO_iiuNVeXyBw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 25 Jun 2021 at 21:28, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> spike, don't they make bikes where the driver is in a prone position?  If not, why not?   bill w
> _______________________________________________


They do make recumbent pedal cycles, both manual and electric. Usually
set up as tricycles.
The rider sits in a comfortable canvas chair, with legs stretched out
in front to the pedals.
The main problem with all cycles is safety, as SUV drivers tend to not
notice anything much smaller than a SUV and recumbents are much lower
than other traffic.


BillK

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 25 22:35:42 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 17:35:42 -0500
Subject: [ExI] World's Fastest Electric Motorcycle
In-Reply-To: <001e01d76a01$ed6798a0$c836c9e0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armiMex3CWaWJcc68GDZ+4YmKz8BpQb=EaxYa34eCDJKXKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <001101d769ca$87cf9ec0$976edc40$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-ontzzRytkUysf7c4f_i=Pyv3XWWdugZcxMkMCWXn5aupaw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armh1tSrOZF_cxt8-nvaPNtNDSr4re_ioStzadC8+pqQcWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001101d769f6$bd279c40$3776d4c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armhqRuPGOnphx4+LA8OmMHCwoAQez=jetQKw_=sBHxmp_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <000d01d769ff$589d9be0$09d8d3a0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEaz8jLHbp9=3BONHVj9koZUxhTfJ1hAW+FJp3rVTguVZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <001e01d76a01$ed6798a0$c836c9e0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZKfADZjUdRV9GxccYJzmwXMAQJoVKv2Yp9U7DuyEaMug@mail.gmail.com>

Have you ever seen a saddle made for ladies?  Friction on her tender parts
was thought to be sexually arousing and so they just made a hole there -
so, no friction.  I can't find an image and maybe it is just faulty
memory.  I don't know why they never did that for men.  Aren't some bicycle
seats like that?    bill w

On Fri, Jun 25, 2021 at 3:39 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] World's Fastest Electric Motorcycle
>
>
>
> spike, don't they make bikes where the driver is in a prone position?  If
> not, why not?   bill w
>
>
>
>
>
> Think long term comfort.  Most bikers are men?
>
>
>
> Also? think of the rider?s neck having to look forward and side to side a
> lot.  Double owwww?
>
>
>
> Another consideration: that might make the foot controls difficult.  The
> left foot actuates the shifter and the right foot the rear brake.  Both
> need mechanical linkages to the motor.  The electric bike might not need a
> shifter, but ordinarily you have two separate brake controls.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Jun 25 22:40:37 2021
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 23:40:37 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Government UFO report is published
Message-ID: <CAL_armhJ4NJtibj2y+8Gk3vm6B8xwu8RTNBhnJ2NPEPEpCc0mQ@mail.gmail.com>

No ET, no answers: Intel report is inconclusive about UFOs
By NOMAAN MERCHANT   AP Published 25 June 2021

<https://apnews.com/article/technology-government-and-politics-f5f24502d97072fd4bef34b6fe36c81d>

Quote:
Investigators did not find extraterrestrial links in reviewing 144
sightings of aircraft or other devices apparently flying at mysterious
speeds or trajectories. But they drew few other conclusions and
instead highlighted the need for better data collection about what?s
increasingly seen by Democrats and Republicans as a national security
concern. In all but one of the sightings investigated, there was too
little information for investigators to even broadly characterize the
nature of the incident.
----------------

So they complain about too little data to draw any conclusions.
It is very annoying that these UFOs just keep disappearing.
Why can't one land and say 'Take me to your leader'?

BillK


From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Jun 25 22:53:01 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 15:53:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Government UFO report is published
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhJ4NJtibj2y+8Gk3vm6B8xwu8RTNBhnJ2NPEPEpCc0mQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhJ4NJtibj2y+8Gk3vm6B8xwu8RTNBhnJ2NPEPEpCc0mQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRAqQtVif0iw+FVuUOZJOs1qqPEyj6VKbG50js0GJ6dyQ@mail.gmail.com>

Several of the reports cited objects that moved with the sensor: the amount
of time it took the sensor to turn 45 degrees was the amount of time the
object took to appear to traverse the corresponding distance at range.

This suggests a sensor glitch in those cases.  Truly distant objects, no
matter their origin or means of propulsion (if any), tend not to be so
tightly tethered to whatever happens to be observing them.

On Fri, Jun 25, 2021 at 3:43 PM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> No ET, no answers: Intel report is inconclusive about UFOs
> By NOMAAN MERCHANT   AP Published 25 June 2021
>
> <
> https://apnews.com/article/technology-government-and-politics-f5f24502d97072fd4bef34b6fe36c81d
> >
>
> Quote:
> Investigators did not find extraterrestrial links in reviewing 144
> sightings of aircraft or other devices apparently flying at mysterious
> speeds or trajectories. But they drew few other conclusions and
> instead highlighted the need for better data collection about what?s
> increasingly seen by Democrats and Republicans as a national security
> concern. In all but one of the sightings investigated, there was too
> little information for investigators to even broadly characterize the
> nature of the incident.
> ----------------
>
> So they complain about too little data to draw any conclusions.
> It is very annoying that these UFOs just keep disappearing.
> Why can't one land and say 'Take me to your leader'?
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Sat Jun 26 00:02:48 2021
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 17:02:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Government UFO report is published
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRAqQtVif0iw+FVuUOZJOs1qqPEyj6VKbG50js0GJ6dyQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNRAqQtVif0iw+FVuUOZJOs1qqPEyj6VKbG50js0GJ6dyQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <939FC17A-D476-4B7B-829A-8D7D29C36882@gmail.com>

On Jun 25, 2021, at 3:54 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:?
> Several of the reports cited objects that moved with the sensor: the amount of time it took the sensor to turn 45 degrees was the amount of time the object took to appear to traverse the corresponding distance at range.
> 
> This suggests a sensor glitch in those cases.  Truly distant objects, no matter their origin or means of propulsion (if any), tend not to be so tightly tethered to whatever happens to be observing them.

Your point reminds me of an exoplanet announcement that was retracted. The team making the observation only noticed afterward that the fluctuation has a yearly cycle. So it wasn?t the observed star wobbling to the pull of an unseen planet but the Earth?s transit around the Sun. :/ At least they publicly admitted their error.

Regards,

Dan



From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Sat Jun 26 00:17:37 2021
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 20:17:37 -0400
Subject: [ExI] World's Fastest Electric Motorcycle
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZKfADZjUdRV9GxccYJzmwXMAQJoVKv2Yp9U7DuyEaMug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZKfADZjUdRV9GxccYJzmwXMAQJoVKv2Yp9U7DuyEaMug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D979DB2-58F2-4CD9-9CCE-9F72F8B87845@gmail.com>

I?ve seen ?gaps? in seats but they?re more for airflow than lady bits, per my understanding. 

SR Ballard

> On Jun 25, 2021, at 6:37 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> ?
> Have you ever seen a saddle made for ladies?  Friction on her tender parts was thought to be sexually arousing and so they just made a hole there - so, no friction.  I can't find an image and maybe it is just faulty memory.  I don't know why they never did that for men.  Aren't some bicycle seats like that?    bill w
> 
>> On Fri, Jun 25, 2021 at 3:39 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>> 
>> Subject: Re: [ExI] World's Fastest Electric Motorcycle
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> spike, don't they make bikes where the driver is in a prone position?  If not, why not?   bill w
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Think long term comfort.  Most bikers are men?
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Also? think of the rider?s neck having to look forward and side to side a lot.  Double owwww?
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Another consideration: that might make the foot controls difficult.  The left foot actuates the shifter and the right foot the rear brake.  Both need mechanical linkages to the motor.  The electric bike might not need a shifter, but ordinarily you have two separate brake controls.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> spike
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From avant at sollegro.com  Sat Jun 26 17:39:38 2021
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2021 10:39:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] McAfee
Message-ID: <20210626103938.Horde.t5iYGftN1byIZKIOwlNd6LF@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

I am pretty that by now everybody here has heard of McAfee's alleged  
suicide in a Catalan prison. I just thought it was strange that former  
Libertarian party presidential hopeful could have died under such  
mysterious circumstances. Especially, after having publically  
announced less than two years ago that he would never kill himself,  
and was worried that powerful people were out to kill him and make it  
look like a suicide. The man even had his arm tattooed with "$whack'd"  
so people would know that someone had pid to have him killed.

I mean Epstein's self-hanging in prison was controversial, but he was  
a billionaire who had lost everything and had been called out as a  
pedophile to the entire world. It would therefore be conceivable that  
he might actually WANT to die out of shame. But don't see how a  
libertarian like McAfee would be ashamed enough about tax-evasion, of  
all things, to kill himself.

Stuart LaForge



From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Jun 26 17:53:07 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2021 10:53:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] McAfee
In-Reply-To: <20210626103938.Horde.t5iYGftN1byIZKIOwlNd6LF@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <20210626103938.Horde.t5iYGftN1byIZKIOwlNd6LF@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <002b01d76ab4$1f342e90$5d9c8bb0$@rainier66.com>





Cool do we have any documentation of $wacked'd

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat
Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2021 10:40 AM
To: ExI Chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com>
Subject: [ExI] McAfee

I am pretty that by now everybody here has heard of McAfee's alleged suicide
in a Catalan prison. I just thought it was strange that former Libertarian
party presidential hopeful could have died under such mysterious
circumstances. Especially, after having publically announced less than two
years ago that he would never kill himself, and was worried that powerful
people were out to kill him and make it look like a suicide. The man even
had his arm tattooed with "$whack'd"  
so people would know that someone had pid to have him killed.

I mean Epstein's self-hanging in prison was controversial, but he was a
billionaire who had lost everything and had been called out as a pedophile
to the entire world. It would therefore be conceivable that he might
actually WANT to die out of shame. But don't see how a libertarian like
McAfee would be ashamed enough about tax-evasion, of all things, to kill
himself.

Stuart LaForge


_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From avant at sollegro.com  Sat Jun 26 18:08:28 2021
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2021 11:08:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] McAfee
Message-ID: <20210626110828.Horde.FPRVwBBTPVRXR6gg59qTq1w@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

Quoting Spike:

> Cool do we have any documentation of $wacked'd

I can't find the original Tweet but here is a screen capture.

https://www.news18.com/news/buzz/whackd-john-mcafees-old-tweet-resurfaces-hours-after-he-was-found-dead-in-spanish-jail-3887105.html

Also after he heard about John McAfee's death, Edward Snowden warned  
that Julian Assange could be next.

https://www.news18.com/news/world/after-john-mcafee-dies-by-suicide-edward-snowden-says-julian-assange-could-be-next-3891125.html

I don't really give a shit about billionaire pedophiles, but now I  
feel like they are threatening our people whoever "they" are.

Stuart LaForge










From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Jun 26 18:26:43 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2021 11:26:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] McAfee
In-Reply-To: <20210626110828.Horde.FPRVwBBTPVRXR6gg59qTq1w@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <20210626110828.Horde.FPRVwBBTPVRXR6gg59qTq1w@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <001401d76ab8$d10a5140$731ef3c0$@rainier66.com>

...> On Behalf Of Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] McAfee

Quoting Spike:

>> Cool do we have any documentation of $wacked'd

>...I can't find the original Tweet but here is a screen capture.

https://www.news18.com/news/buzz/whackd-john-mcafees-old-tweet-resurfaces-ho
urs-after-he-was-found-dead-in-spanish-jail-3887105.html

Stuart LaForge





It is definitely looking like McAfee was Epsteined, does it not?

spike








From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Jun 26 18:59:26 2021
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2021 19:59:26 +0100
Subject: [ExI] New Blood test finds 50 types of cancer
Message-ID: <CAL_armihnvRAhT4z=uUefNZHLfZu13VfbpTGaUry2c90H-wXXw@mail.gmail.com>

Blood test that finds 50 types of cancer is accurate enough to be rolled out
Diagnostic tool being piloted by NHS England shows ?impressive
results? in spotting tumours in early stages
Fri 25 Jun 2021

<https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jun/25/blood-test-that-finds-50-types-of-cancer-is-accurate-enough-to-be-rolled-out>

Quote:
A simple blood test that can detect more than 50 types of cancer
before any clinical signs or symptoms of the disease emerge in a
person is accurate enough to be rolled out as a screening test,
according to scientists.
The test, which is also being piloted by NHS England in the autumn, is
aimed at people at higher risk of the disease including patients aged
50 or older.

It is able to identify many types of the disease that are difficult to
diagnose in the early stages such as head and neck, ovarian,
pancreatic, oesophageal and some blood cancers.
Scientists said their findings, published in the journal Annals of
Oncology, show that the test accurately detects cancer often before
any signs or symptoms appear, while having a very low false positive
rate.
--------------

Good news!

BillK


From stathisp at gmail.com  Sat Jun 26 20:15:05 2021
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2021 06:15:05 +1000
Subject: [ExI] McAfee
In-Reply-To: <20210626103938.Horde.t5iYGftN1byIZKIOwlNd6LF@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <20210626103938.Horde.t5iYGftN1byIZKIOwlNd6LF@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAH=2ypXCA=sYhosrm9QYKmfLdtPr-BrF-46ddjHEnpGf_+JVLA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 at 03:41, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I am pretty that by now everybody here has heard of McAfee's alleged
> suicide in a Catalan prison. I just thought it was strange that former
> Libertarian party presidential hopeful could have died under such
> mysterious circumstances. Especially, after having publically
> announced less than two years ago that he would never kill himself,
> and was worried that powerful people were out to kill him and make it
> look like a suicide. The man even had his arm tattooed with "$whack'd"
> so people would know that someone had pid to have him killed.
>
> I mean Epstein's self-hanging in prison was controversial, but he was
> a billionaire who had lost everything and had been called out as a
> pedophile to the entire world. It would therefore be conceivable that
> he might actually WANT to die out of shame. But don't see how a
> libertarian like McAfee would be ashamed enough about tax-evasion, of
> all things, to kill himself.


Being locked up in an American prison for the rest of his life might be
considered a reason.

> --
Stathis Papaioannou
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Jun 26 20:43:17 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2021 15:43:17 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Fwd:  McAfee
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypXCA=sYhosrm9QYKmfLdtPr-BrF-46ddjHEnpGf_+JVLA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20210626103938.Horde.t5iYGftN1byIZKIOwlNd6LF@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAH=2ypXCA=sYhosrm9QYKmfLdtPr-BrF-46ddjHEnpGf_+JVLA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYq+QkSsgh433CDwsPoxJLZ1u194JU78_bKWSMCh_Kd5w@mail.gmail.com>

related:  debtor's prisons - of course they have to be punished in some
way, but putting them where they can't earn anything to pay off the debt
seems ironic - bill w

On Sat, Jun 26, 2021 at 3:17 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 at 03:41, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> I am pretty that by now everybody here has heard of McAfee's alleged
>> suicide in a Catalan prison. I just thought it was strange that former
>> Libertarian party presidential hopeful could have died under such
>> mysterious circumstances. Especially, after having publically
>> announced less than two years ago that he would never kill himself,
>> and was worried that powerful people were out to kill him and make it
>> look like a suicide. The man even had his arm tattooed with "$whack'd"
>> so people would know that someone had pid to have him killed.
>>
>> I mean Epstein's self-hanging in prison was controversial, but he was
>> a billionaire who had lost everything and had been called out as a
>> pedophile to the entire world. It would therefore be conceivable that
>> he might actually WANT to die out of shame. But don't see how a
>> libertarian like McAfee would be ashamed enough about tax-evasion, of
>> all things, to kill himself.
>
>
> Being locked up in an American prison for the rest of his life might be
> considered a reason.
>
>> --
> Stathis Papaioannou
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Jun 26 21:04:49 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2021 14:04:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: McAfee
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYq+QkSsgh433CDwsPoxJLZ1u194JU78_bKWSMCh_Kd5w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20210626103938.Horde.t5iYGftN1byIZKIOwlNd6LF@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAH=2ypXCA=sYhosrm9QYKmfLdtPr-BrF-46ddjHEnpGf_+JVLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYq+QkSsgh433CDwsPoxJLZ1u194JU78_bKWSMCh_Kd5w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQTsFpdjmM-V5snM8BooUr2pjFBjtUm=aEKYbJ79fmpug@mail.gmail.com>

Got to keep the poors, poor, don'tcha know? ;)

On Sat, Jun 26, 2021 at 1:45 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> related:  debtor's prisons - of course they have to be punished in some
> way, but putting them where they can't earn anything to pay off the debt
> seems ironic - bill w
>
> On Sat, Jun 26, 2021 at 3:17 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 at 03:41, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I am pretty that by now everybody here has heard of McAfee's alleged
>>> suicide in a Catalan prison. I just thought it was strange that former
>>> Libertarian party presidential hopeful could have died under such
>>> mysterious circumstances. Especially, after having publically
>>> announced less than two years ago that he would never kill himself,
>>> and was worried that powerful people were out to kill him and make it
>>> look like a suicide. The man even had his arm tattooed with "$whack'd"
>>> so people would know that someone had pid to have him killed.
>>>
>>> I mean Epstein's self-hanging in prison was controversial, but he was
>>> a billionaire who had lost everything and had been called out as a
>>> pedophile to the entire world. It would therefore be conceivable that
>>> he might actually WANT to die out of shame. But don't see how a
>>> libertarian like McAfee would be ashamed enough about tax-evasion, of
>>> all things, to kill himself.
>>
>>
>> Being locked up in an American prison for the rest of his life might be
>> considered a reason.
>>
>>> --
>> Stathis Papaioannou
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Jun 26 21:17:00 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2021 14:17:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] McAfee
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypXCA=sYhosrm9QYKmfLdtPr-BrF-46ddjHEnpGf_+JVLA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20210626103938.Horde.t5iYGftN1byIZKIOwlNd6LF@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAH=2ypXCA=sYhosrm9QYKmfLdtPr-BrF-46ddjHEnpGf_+JVLA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003e01d76ad0$9ac0d6f0$d04284d0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] McAfee

 

 

 

On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 at 03:41, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

I am pretty that by now everybody here has heard of McAfee's alleged  
suicide in a Catalan prison. ?.

 

>?Being locked up in an American prison for the rest of his life might be considered a reason.

-- 

Stathis Papaioannou

 

 

Sure.  But if he really did this himself, he was committing suicide and making it look like a murder.  That seems so backwards.

 

spike

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From avant at sollegro.com  Sat Jun 26 21:42:14 2021
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2021 14:42:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] McAfee
In-Reply-To: <mailman.35.1624740224.601.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <20210626144214.Horde.M80m5fwCWIxutCel6HERqNa@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

Quoting Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>:

> Being locked up in an American prison for the rest of his life might be
> considered a reason.

He was charged with tax evasion in the U.S. and could have faced 30  
years in prison but he had not yet been convicted of any crime. With a  
good attorney, he could have walked free. Why would he not have risked  
a trial? Even if he knew he would be found guilty in court, why  
wouldn't he have waited and just committed suicide in an American  
prison? McAfee always struck me as someone more likely to get shot  
trying to escape from prison than killing himself out of despair in one.

Stuart LaForge




From mlatorra at gmail.com  Sat Jun 26 23:21:41 2021
From: mlatorra at gmail.com (Michael LaTorra)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2021 17:21:41 -0600
Subject: [ExI] McAfee
In-Reply-To: <003e01d76ad0$9ac0d6f0$d04284d0$@rainier66.com>
References: <20210626103938.Horde.t5iYGftN1byIZKIOwlNd6LF@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAH=2ypXCA=sYhosrm9QYKmfLdtPr-BrF-46ddjHEnpGf_+JVLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <003e01d76ad0$9ac0d6f0$d04284d0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAPGs0J_DT0roEvf20sgE2=2SG=qehDAtLgooN8hgDxWjAkYWSg@mail.gmail.com>

McAfee was a sketchy character. He turned a $100 million fortune into a
mere $4 million through crazy spending and foolish choices. He got into
grey-zone or even illegal businesses. He may have murdered a neighbor. And
he was not the sort of person that could be reasonably deemed "a man of his
word." Telling people he would never commit suicide does not carry much
weight.

https://www.cnet.com/how-to/john-mcafees-tumultuous-life-in-tech-and-why-it-mattered/

On Sat, Jun 26, 2021, 3:19 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *?*> *On Behalf Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] McAfee
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 at 03:41, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> I am pretty that by now everybody here has heard of McAfee's alleged
> suicide in a Catalan prison. ?.
>
>
>
> >?Being locked up in an American prison for the rest of his life might be
> considered a reason.
>
> --
>
> Stathis Papaioannou
>
>
>
>
>
> Sure.  But if he really did this himself, he was committing suicide and
> making it look like a murder.  That seems so backwards.
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From guessmyneeds at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 27 05:28:01 2021
From: guessmyneeds at yahoo.com (Sherry Knepper)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2021 05:28:01 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ExI] McAfee
In-Reply-To: <20210626103938.Horde.t5iYGftN1byIZKIOwlNd6LF@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <20210626103938.Horde.t5iYGftN1byIZKIOwlNd6LF@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <1219118827.940210.1624771681254@mail.yahoo.com>

I hadn't heard that McAfee died.? I will look that up.? I always thought he had a shady vibe about him every time I saw him.? I know of a few other high profile people jailed for tax evasion but no suicide attempts as far as I know.?

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Sat, Jun 26, 2021 at 1:46 PM, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:   I am pretty that by now everybody here has heard of McAfee's alleged? 
suicide in a Catalan prison. I just thought it was strange that former? 
Libertarian party presidential hopeful could have died under such? 
mysterious circumstances. Especially, after having publically? 
announced less than two years ago that he would never kill himself,? 
and was worried that powerful people were out to kill him and make it? 
look like a suicide. The man even had his arm tattooed with "$whack'd"? 
so people would know that someone had pid to have him killed.

I mean Epstein's self-hanging in prison was controversial, but he was? 
a billionaire who had lost everything and had been called out as a? 
pedophile to the entire world. It would therefore be conceivable that? 
he might actually WANT to die out of shame. But don't see how a? 
libertarian like McAfee would be ashamed enough about tax-evasion, of? 
all things, to kill himself.

Stuart LaForge


_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
  
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Jun 27 09:37:43 2021
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2021 10:37:43 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Study of social media behavior must be 'crisis discipline'
Message-ID: <CAL_armg-nFbwH=LX69mv4wau1DfydC_eGyvaqQ4iKH9eFmck+A@mail.gmail.com>

Our ability to confront global crises, from pandemics to climate
change, depends on how we interact and share information.

<https://phys.org/news/2021-06-technology-behavior-crisis-discipline.html>
Quotes:
Social media and other forms of communication technology restructure
these interactions in ways that have consequences. Unfortunately, we
have little insight into whether these changes will bring about a
healthy, sustainable and equitable world. As a result, researchers now
say that the study of collective behavior must rise to a "crisis
discipline," just like medicine, conservation and climate science have
done, according to a new paper published June 14 in the Proceedings of
the National Academy of Sciences.

Social media and other technological developments have radically
reshaped the way that information flows on a global scale. These
platforms are driven to maximize engagement and profitability, not to
ensure sustainability or accurate information?and the vulnerability of
these systems to misinformation and disinformation poses a dire threat
to health, peace, global climate and more.
--------------

Also -
<https://www.vox.com/recode/2021/6/26/22550981/carl-bergstrom-joe-bak-coleman-biologists-ecologists-social-media-risk-humanity-research-academics>
Quotes:
The paper argues that our lack of understanding about the collective
behavioral effects of new technology is a danger to democracy and
scientific progress. For example, the paper says that tech companies
have ?fumbled their way through the ongoing coronavirus pandemic,
unable to stem the ?infodemic? of misinformation? that has hindered
widespread acceptance of masks and vaccines.
----------

Ohh,  Somebody's noticed that social media might just be destroying
society..........

BillK


From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Jun 27 13:12:57 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2021 06:12:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Study of social media behavior must be 'crisis discipline'
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armg-nFbwH=LX69mv4wau1DfydC_eGyvaqQ4iKH9eFmck+A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armg-nFbwH=LX69mv4wau1DfydC_eGyvaqQ4iKH9eFmck+A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005001d76b56$2666a6a0$7333f3e0$@rainier66.com>


...> On Behalf Of BillK ...

>...These platforms are driven to maximize engagement and profitability, not to ensure sustainability or accurate information?and the vulnerability of these systems to misinformation and disinformation poses a dire threat to health, peace, global climate and more.
--------------
...

Ja.  The great challenge of our times is finding ways to promote health, peace, global climate and all that stuff while still making a pile of cash.


>... unable to stem the ?infodemic? of misinformation? that has hindered widespread acceptance of masks and vaccines...

The mainstream media did itself no favors.  After the fact, we find out that covid might really have leaked from a lab in Wuhan, regardless of how hard the media worked to convince us otherwise, and that other medications might have been effective against covid during the time the vaccine was being developed.  The mainstreamers' credibility will take years to recover lost ground.


----------

>...Ohh,  Somebody's noticed that social media might just be destroying society..........

BillK

_______________________________________________


Social media is certainly fracturing society into smaller pieces which may or may not work well together.  The mainstream media long for a return to when they controlled the message to the public.  That day will never come again.

spike  



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Jun 27 14:34:54 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2021 09:34:54 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Study of social media behavior must be 'crisis discipline'
In-Reply-To: <005001d76b56$2666a6a0$7333f3e0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armg-nFbwH=LX69mv4wau1DfydC_eGyvaqQ4iKH9eFmck+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <005001d76b56$2666a6a0$7333f3e0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZucyi-o0BZaLArjkF=+5bgYH+Ty+iANhzPFOPjJnu0jw@mail.gmail.com>

Before the web, a parent could only infect his own family with prejudices,
biases, myths and other superstitious behaviors and ideas.  Now they can
infect the entire world.  I am reading 'In Gods We Trust, the Evolutionary
Landscape of Religion'.

For me, it's practically a college course in evolution, which I needed.
Very high level book by a cultural cognitive anthropologist, a new type to
me.

"Faith in religious belief is not simply another manifestation of a general
psychological propensity to reduce cognitive dissonance by ignoring or
reappraising information that is contrary to one's views.  It is the direct
cognitive result of suspending the relevance criteria that universally
apply to ordinary communications.  If faith is, in part, willingness to
suspend ordinary pragmatic constraints of relevance, then beliefs held in
faith become not only immune to falsification and contradiction, but become
even more strongly held in the face of apparent falsification or
contradiction.  Apparently disconfirmed religious beliefs show only the
superficiality of one's current interpretation and point to an even deeper
but more mysterious truth."

So how does one lose one's beliefs?  Challenging them can make them
stronger.

(Not finished - more later)   bill w

On Sun, Jun 27, 2021 at 8:14 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> ...> On Behalf Of BillK ...
>
> >...These platforms are driven to maximize engagement and profitability,
> not to ensure sustainability or accurate information?and the vulnerability
> of these systems to misinformation and disinformation poses a dire threat
> to health, peace, global climate and more.
> --------------
> ...
>
> Ja.  The great challenge of our times is finding ways to promote health,
> peace, global climate and all that stuff while still making a pile of cash.
>
>
> >... unable to stem the ?infodemic? of misinformation? that has hindered
> widespread acceptance of masks and vaccines...
>
> The mainstream media did itself no favors.  After the fact, we find out
> that covid might really have leaked from a lab in Wuhan, regardless of how
> hard the media worked to convince us otherwise, and that other medications
> might have been effective against covid during the time the vaccine was
> being developed.  The mainstreamers' credibility will take years to recover
> lost ground.
>
>
> ----------
>
> >...Ohh,  Somebody's noticed that social media might just be destroying
> society..........
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Social media is certainly fracturing society into smaller pieces which may
> or may not work well together.  The mainstream media long for a return to
> when they controlled the message to the public.  That day will never come
> again.
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Jun 27 15:37:36 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2021 08:37:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Study of social media behavior must be 'crisis discipline'
In-Reply-To: <005001d76b56$2666a6a0$7333f3e0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armg-nFbwH=LX69mv4wau1DfydC_eGyvaqQ4iKH9eFmck+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <005001d76b56$2666a6a0$7333f3e0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQY+jQb1MAbkDz_tmuDY=7=66i_ekbkT6+f96HzuNkiKA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jun 27, 2021 at 6:14 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> The mainstreamers' credibility will take years to recover lost ground.
>

The mainstream, by definition, is who people trust more than other
sources.  They will continue to be trusted despite their blunders, just
like they have in the past, if only because of a lack of other sources that
have as much reach.

That said, the "mainstream" consists of many more sources than it did a
decade ago.
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Jun 27 18:19:36 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2021 13:19:36 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Study of social media behavior must be 'crisis discipline'
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQY+jQb1MAbkDz_tmuDY=7=66i_ekbkT6+f96HzuNkiKA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armg-nFbwH=LX69mv4wau1DfydC_eGyvaqQ4iKH9eFmck+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <005001d76b56$2666a6a0$7333f3e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQY+jQb1MAbkDz_tmuDY=7=66i_ekbkT6+f96HzuNkiKA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbczMA5m7-JfVHu=BmRgSt3JP0fuMhV4iYJFxfqCc0eyA@mail.gmail.com>

Do we think that T's followers believed all of his lies, or just thought
they didn't matter?  Teflon like Reagan?  Essentially treated like a god?
The bio of Washington I just finished showed me that a large percentage of
the people want a kinglike figure to adore/worship, and faults didn't seem
to matter (who was going to do that to Hilary? as a side question).  One of
my areas is persuasive communications and what is going on these days is
highly interesting and in some respects inscrutable.  bill w


On Sun, Jun 27, 2021 at 10:39 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Sun, Jun 27, 2021 at 6:14 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> The mainstreamers' credibility will take years to recover lost ground.
>>
>
> The mainstream, by definition, is who people trust more than other
> sources.  They will continue to be trusted despite their blunders, just
> like they have in the past, if only because of a lack of other sources that
> have as much reach.
>
> That said, the "mainstream" consists of many more sources than it did a
> decade ago.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Sun Jun 27 18:42:03 2021
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2021 11:42:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Study of social media behavior must be 'crisis discipline'
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armg-nFbwH=LX69mv4wau1DfydC_eGyvaqQ4iKH9eFmck+A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armg-nFbwH=LX69mv4wau1DfydC_eGyvaqQ4iKH9eFmck+A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B0F84A72-5345-4D24-95E1-722FC5325BE3@gmail.com>

On Jun 27, 2021, at 2:40 AM, BillK via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> ?Our ability to confront global crises, from pandemics to climate
> change, depends on how we interact and share information.
> 
> <https://phys.org/news/2021-06-technology-behavior-crisis-discipline.html>
> Quotes:
> Social media and other forms of communication technology restructure
> these interactions in ways that have consequences. Unfortunately, we
> have little insight into whether these changes will bring about a
> healthy, sustainable and equitable world. As a result, researchers now
> say that the study of collective behavior must rise to a "crisis
> discipline," just like medicine, conservation and climate science have
> done, according to a new paper published June 14 in the Proceedings of
> the National Academy of Sciences.
> 
> Social media and other technological developments have radically
> reshaped the way that information flows on a global scale. These
> platforms are driven to maximize engagement and profitability, not to
> ensure sustainability or accurate information?and the vulnerability of
> these systems to misinformation and disinformation poses a dire threat
> to health, peace, global climate and more.
> --------------
> 
> Also -
> <https://www.vox.com/recode/2021/6/26/22550981/carl-bergstrom-joe-bak-coleman-biologists-ecologists-social-media-risk-humanity-research-academics>
> Quotes:
> The paper argues that our lack of understanding about the collective
> behavioral effects of new technology is a danger to democracy and
> scientific progress. For example, the paper says that tech companies
> have ?fumbled their way through the ongoing coronavirus pandemic,
> unable to stem the ?infodemic? of misinformation? that has hindered
> widespread acceptance of masks and vaccines.
> ----------
> 
> Ohh,  Somebody's noticed that social media might just be destroying
> society..........
> 
> BillK

Kind of like pamphlets (think English Civil War) and newspapers (think late 18th to early 20th century) did years ago, no? Or the telegraph, telephone radio, and television did more recently.

Regards,

Dan

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Jun 27 20:14:37 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2021 15:14:37 -0500
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Re: Study of social media behavior must be
 'crisis discipline'
In-Reply-To: <7D7DEA92-8603-4BF7-B20D-F5B74E3C26F6@gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbczMA5m7-JfVHu=BmRgSt3JP0fuMhV4iYJFxfqCc0eyA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7D7DEA92-8603-4BF7-B20D-F5B74E3C26F6@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYndqLfLCPgJOWqnNjE1zcFL5=O5776n4iwguxe1sYeEw@mail.gmail.com>

Dan, when you use the word 'libertarian' do you assume that we will assume
that they are conservative?  I have had people tell me, after I identified
myself as a liberal libertarian, that they never heard of such a thing.
 bill w

On Sun, Jun 27, 2021 at 2:51 PM Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Jun 27, 2021, at 11:19 AM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Do we think that T's followers believed all of his lies, or just thought
> they didn't matter?  Teflon like Reagan?  Essentially treated like a god?
> The bio of Washington I just finished showed me that a large percentage of
> the people want a kinglike figure to adore/worship, and faults didn't seem
> to matter (who was going to do that to Hilary? as a side question).  One of
> my areas is persuasive communications and what is going on these days is
> highly interesting and in some respects inscrutable.  bill w
>
>
> Back in 2015 and 2016 when I hung around with the local ?libertarians? it
> seemed to me many of them were into Trump (and later Jordan Peterson)
> because they wanted to own (piss off) liberals, progressives, and Leftists.
> I even asked a few if they hated their opponents on the Left more the loved
> freedom.
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/7D7DEA92-8603-4BF7-B20D-F5B74E3C26F6%40gmail.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/7D7DEA92-8603-4BF7-B20D-F5B74E3C26F6%40gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Jun 27 21:37:07 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2021 16:37:07 -0500
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Re: Study of social media behavior must be
 'crisis discipline'
In-Reply-To: <9D8008D5-0C8E-48F1-84BA-4988E5921750@gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYndqLfLCPgJOWqnNjE1zcFL5=O5776n4iwguxe1sYeEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9D8008D5-0C8E-48F1-84BA-4988E5921750@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEa9CvVzZesH7mBj0ePzs3U-znO4o9-J40ma8RRkB1wL2A@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for the new word: theonomy, then, really what each religion
proposes, while theocracy is a state-sponsored religion, like the Anglican
in England, I suppose.  I keep trying to figure out what I am, and what I
am, I think, is one of a kind, who overlaps with many, but totally with
nobody, which I think describes many who have complex, nuanced, values.
 How are people like us going to have an influence at all, since we can
fully agree with no one?  Run for office, I reckon.  bill w

On Sun, Jun 27, 2021 at 3:50 PM Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Jun 27, 2021, at 1:14 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> wrote:?
>
> Dan, when you use the word 'libertarian' do you assume that we will assume
> that they are conservative?  I have had people tell me, after I identified
> myself as a liberal libertarian, that they never heard of such a thing.
>  bill w
>
>
> No. I was using the term they self-identified with. And this was a group
> called ?libertarians.? They were overrun by folks who used the label but
> were mainly interested in trolling liberals, etc. And their support of
> Trump seemed based on ?well, he pisses off people I don?t like? rather than
> for anything else. In fact, many if their political positions seemed to be
> chosen in an adolescent style: what is most shocking to the Left they would
> advocate. (For instance, I talked to two of them who thought a certain
> German leader got a bad rep because of Allied propaganda. He wasn?t really
> all that bad, according to them.)
>
> Many libertarians I know ? outside of the aforementioned group ? identify
> as left libertarian. (And I know left Rothbardians, Left market anarchists,
> market socialists, etc.) The whole C4SS crowd might fall under this.
>
> A few (that I know) also identify as liberal libertarian or liberaltarian.
> I believe the late Steve Horwitz (he only passed away this morning)
> self-identified that way. (Bleeding Heart Libertarians is or was kind of an
> online home for them.)
>
> Of course, people throw around these labels without too much thought, so I
> usually don?t put too much stock in it. For instance, does liberal
> libertarian mean something coherent or is it just a mash up of mainstream
> liberal and libertarian ideas? If the latter, then two individuals who
> fancy themselves liberal libertarians might have serious disagreements on
> many issues in seemingly random places. (With conservative libertarians I
> know, it?s almost always much easier: they?re not libertarians at all. They
> simply accept a few libertarian positions but the overall thrust is they
> want conservative rule, even for many an ethnostate and for a few some form
> of theonomy.)
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/9D8008D5-0C8E-48F1-84BA-4988E5921750%40gmail.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/9D8008D5-0C8E-48F1-84BA-4988E5921750%40gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Jun 28 00:19:16 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2021 17:19:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] miracles
Message-ID: <00b701d76bb3$3b5ae690$b210b3b0$@rainier66.com>

 

 



 

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From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Mon Jun 28 00:39:00 2021
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2021 18:39:00 -0600
Subject: [ExI] miracles
In-Reply-To: <00b701d76bb3$3b5ae690$b210b3b0$@rainier66.com>
References: <00b701d76bb3$3b5ae690$b210b3b0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onvENoBobXb8rZJcXeyxTVW4kJrRzPuoG20nhQWkMAOcmw@mail.gmail.com>

I love it!!

On Sun, Jun 27, 2021 at 6:20 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Jun 28 00:49:48 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2021 17:49:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] miracles
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onvENoBobXb8rZJcXeyxTVW4kJrRzPuoG20nhQWkMAOcmw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00b701d76bb3$3b5ae690$b210b3b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onvENoBobXb8rZJcXeyxTVW4kJrRzPuoG20nhQWkMAOcmw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00cc01d76bb7$7f91d590$7eb580b0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com> 
Subject: Re: [ExI] miracles

 

>?I love it!!

 

 

 

 

I do too.  I like this one even better:

 

 



 

 

Both of these have a kind of XKCD-ness to them, but Randall Monroe didn?t draw them.  Clearly he is influential.

 

spike

 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Jun 28 01:18:57 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2021 20:18:57 -0500
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Re: Study of social media behavior must be
 'crisis discipline'
In-Reply-To: <EE6FE957-A0A5-4994-AE05-07DFA8A86EFA@gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa9CvVzZesH7mBj0ePzs3U-znO4o9-J40ma8RRkB1wL2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <EE6FE957-A0A5-4994-AE05-07DFA8A86EFA@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaFQ5bzxt2eFMwWp-SPoqRGy7SBfNi7-==8Qohs+Au86A@mail.gmail.com>

Dan, you hang around with some strange people.  Have those guys read
Leviticus?  bill w

On Sun, Jun 27, 2021 at 7:11 PM Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Jun 27, 2021, at 2:37 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the new word: theonomy, then, really what each religion
> proposes, while theocracy is a state-sponsored religion, like the Anglican
> in England, I suppose.  I keep trying to figure out what I am, and what I
> am, I think, is one of a kind, who overlaps with many, but totally with
> nobody, which I think describes many who have complex, nuanced, values.
>  How are people like us going to have an influence at all, since we can
> fully agree with no one?  Run for office, I reckon.  bill w
>
>
> Theocracy doesn?t exactly mean state-sponsored religion and the Anglican
> Church is not really an example of theocracy. (Even if one considers this a
> fuzzy thing, the UK today isn?t anything like what theocratically inclined
> folks want.) Theocracy means rule by clergy. (One can argue about Henry
> VIII changing that, but it?s more the monarchy took over the church than
> the other way ?round.)
>
> Theonomists are even more particular? And I mean the ones I know ? not
> some generic theonomist based on the definition. These folks want Old
> Testament inspired laws put in place and they?re quite ready to say their
> interpretation of that ? e.g., gays, adulterers, and blasphemers jailed or
> executed, other religions outlawed, non-Christians basically given second
> class or even non-citizen status.
>
> I don?t mind labels. They?re helpful. I expect people who call themselves
> X to have some wiggle room. That said, I?m surprised when folks say they?re
> X and then go on to endorse many anti-X things. For instance, if someone
> says they?re a civil libertarian and then spends all day talking about how
> this and that should be censored and no knock warrants are the best tool
> law enforcement ever invented ? next to beating confessions out of
> suspects, then I begin to think either they don?t know what being a civil
> libertarian entails (in other words, they?re ignorant or stupid) or they do
> know what it entails (in which case, they?re playing some game).
>
> A big problem here, too, is a word is coined and then ?escapes? out into
> public. It had a more or less clear meaning when it was coined, though
> probably not precise like in some logical language. But once others else
> starts throwing it around, the meaning changes. Socialism is a word like
> this. Note how it?s used to mean everything from state control of
> industries to welfare programs to communism to wearing a mask and getting
> vaccinated. (Socialism is a good term to look at because it want exactly
> used to mean central planning or welfare programs by its earliest users. In
> fact, for a time individualist anarchists described themselves as
> socialists. And, no, they did NOT mean that state central planning would
> eventually lead to some anarchist society.)
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/EE6FE957-A0A5-4994-AE05-07DFA8A86EFA%40gmail.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/EE6FE957-A0A5-4994-AE05-07DFA8A86EFA%40gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>
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From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Mon Jun 28 01:46:08 2021
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2021 19:46:08 -0600
Subject: [ExI] miracles
In-Reply-To: <00cc01d76bb7$7f91d590$7eb580b0$@rainier66.com>
References: <00b701d76bb3$3b5ae690$b210b3b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onvENoBobXb8rZJcXeyxTVW4kJrRzPuoG20nhQWkMAOcmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00cc01d76bb7$7f91d590$7eb580b0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onu95QCyJDDgFAK7-jrf86O4zGvYid=QJqGmVqx3-aSAvA@mail.gmail.com>

Yea, I remember this great one being posted some time ago.

On Sun, Jun 27, 2021 at 6:50 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] miracles
>
>
>
> >?I love it!!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I do too.  I like this one even better:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Both of these have a kind of XKCD-ness to them, but Randall Monroe didn?t
> draw them.  Clearly he is influential.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From d.r.azulay at gmail.com  Mon Jun 28 00:01:29 2021
From: d.r.azulay at gmail.com (Daniel Azulay)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2021 02:01:29 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Study of social media behavior must be 'crisis discipline'
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armg-nFbwH=LX69mv4wau1DfydC_eGyvaqQ4iKH9eFmck+A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armg-nFbwH=LX69mv4wau1DfydC_eGyvaqQ4iKH9eFmck+A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKRsDGpMmiUSu79RQCUO6PnU-RSM-9VvGKKH6H+YrwSjH-S7Ww@mail.gmail.com>

I strongly urge you all to listen to the latest Lex Fridman podcast where
he talks with Bret Weinstein about exactly this topic (Truth, science and
censorship in the time of a Pandemic).

Weinstein argues that to change the way social media influences society,
the system itself must first change, and well, he has a rather pessimistic
outlook.

On Sun, Jun 27, 2021, 11:40 BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Our ability to confront global crises, from pandemics to climate
> change, depends on how we interact and share information.
>
> <https://phys.org/news/2021-06-technology-behavior-crisis-discipline.html>
> Quotes:
> Social media and other forms of communication technology restructure
> these interactions in ways that have consequences. Unfortunately, we
> have little insight into whether these changes will bring about a
> healthy, sustainable and equitable world. As a result, researchers now
> say that the study of collective behavior must rise to a "crisis
> discipline," just like medicine, conservation and climate science have
> done, according to a new paper published June 14 in the Proceedings of
> the National Academy of Sciences.
>
> Social media and other technological developments have radically
> reshaped the way that information flows on a global scale. These
> platforms are driven to maximize engagement and profitability, not to
> ensure sustainability or accurate information?and the vulnerability of
> these systems to misinformation and disinformation poses a dire threat
> to health, peace, global climate and more.
> --------------
>
> Also -
> <
> https://www.vox.com/recode/2021/6/26/22550981/carl-bergstrom-joe-bak-coleman-biologists-ecologists-social-media-risk-humanity-research-academics
> >
> Quotes:
> The paper argues that our lack of understanding about the collective
> behavioral effects of new technology is a danger to democracy and
> scientific progress. For example, the paper says that tech companies
> have ?fumbled their way through the ongoing coronavirus pandemic,
> unable to stem the ?infodemic? of misinformation? that has hindered
> widespread acceptance of masks and vaccines.
> ----------
>
> Ohh,  Somebody's noticed that social media might just be destroying
> society..........
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Jun 28 08:58:06 2021
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2021 09:58:06 +0100
Subject: [ExI] miracles
In-Reply-To: <00cc01d76bb7$7f91d590$7eb580b0$@rainier66.com>
References: <00b701d76bb3$3b5ae690$b210b3b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onvENoBobXb8rZJcXeyxTVW4kJrRzPuoG20nhQWkMAOcmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00cc01d76bb7$7f91d590$7eb580b0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armj5dZj4=UCMYNkFa+xHatXmGbZnXvdeTMbbnPXr+Vs4fA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 28 Jun 2021 at 01:52, spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>
> Both of these have a kind of XKCD-ness to them, but Randall Monroe didn?t
> draw them.  Clearly he is influential.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>  _______________________________________________
>
>
Quote:
We take more photos now than ever before. Growth in this segment is
explosive, with over 1.4 trillion photos taken last year, according to
InfoTrends. That's up from 1 trillion in 2017. Video is much the same, with
YouTube saying in recent years
<https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/14/with-over-1-billion-users-heres-how-youtube-is-keeping-pace-with-change.html>
that
about 500 hours of video are uploaded to the platform *every minute*.

And STILL no decent photos of UFO spaceships or aliens waving 'Hi folks!'.
Oh well, maybe the aliens aren't going to land and solve all our problems
for us.

BillK
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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Jun 28 11:43:20 2021
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2021 12:43:20 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Study of social media behavior must be 'crisis discipline'
In-Reply-To: <CAKRsDGpMmiUSu79RQCUO6PnU-RSM-9VvGKKH6H+YrwSjH-S7Ww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armg-nFbwH=LX69mv4wau1DfydC_eGyvaqQ4iKH9eFmck+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKRsDGpMmiUSu79RQCUO6PnU-RSM-9VvGKKH6H+YrwSjH-S7Ww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armiH1m3Z+i2jvk+RsL6YNWwAevX2TwjotD9cbe-2UgbKjw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 28 Jun 2021 at 01:02, Daniel Azulay <d.r.azulay at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I strongly urge you all to listen to the latest Lex Fridman podcast where he talks with Bret Weinstein about exactly this topic (Truth, science and censorship in the time of a Pandemic).
> Weinstein argues that to change the way social media influences society, the system itself must first change, and well, he has a rather pessimistic outlook.
> _______________________________________________


Hi Daniel

When you recommend something it's helpful to provide a link.  :)

<https://lexfridman.com/podcast/>

He talks to some interesting people.  Thanks for the heads-up!

Sample Conversations: Elon Musk, Jack Dorsey, Richard Dawkins, Leonard
Susskind, Noam Chomsky, Eric Weinstein, Roger Penrose, Stephen
Wolfram, Sean Carroll, Bjarne Stroustrup, Donald Knuth, and my dad
Alexander Fridman.




BillK

From sparge at gmail.com  Mon Jun 28 12:17:23 2021
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2021 08:17:23 -0400
Subject: [ExI] McAfee
In-Reply-To: <20210626103938.Horde.t5iYGftN1byIZKIOwlNd6LF@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <20210626103938.Horde.t5iYGftN1byIZKIOwlNd6LF@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2dPXye-sBe8_wQYT46wuyF1PNcFTEbxFa9C1rvqnfohfw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 26, 2021 at 1:41 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I am pretty that by now everybody here has heard of McAfee's alleged
> suicide in a Catalan prison. I just thought it was strange that former
> Libertarian party presidential hopeful could have died under such
> mysterious circumstances. Especially, after having publically
> announced less than two years ago that he would never kill himself,
> and was worried that powerful people were out to kill him and make it
> look like a suicide. The man even had his arm tattooed with "$whack'd"
> so people would know that someone had pid to have him killed.
>

He supposedly had a kill switch that would release his damaging materials
if he died. If so, it seems like killing him would be risky.

He was 75 years old and I don't know what his health was like, but if he
thought he'd never be free again, killing himself to avoid that while
pointing the blame at those out to get him seems like something he might
have considered.

-Dave
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Jun 28 14:02:17 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2021 09:02:17 -0500
Subject: [ExI] influence of the humanities
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYKx+W8Ek5rJt1e+ohZ1wu5Cy05x6yFUWy0k3VeA1mOig@mail.gmail.com>

Minds like Einstein have credited complex music (e.g. Bach, Beethoven) with
enhancing their creativity, but what is the importance of music to the
larger society? Has music ever affected civilizations like, say, great
literature or philosophy?

from my Quora answer:

Historically, very few people got to listen to classical music. Only the
rich, the elite could afford such a thing. Even now with Youtube having an
abundance of classical music it?s far, far from as popular as anything else
you can name. The Beatles probably influenced society in general far more
than Bach and Beethoven.

The same goes for literature - historically very few people could read, and
if they could, they didn?t have time for it. They worked all day long, went
home, ate, and slept. Again, great literature was for the well to do, the
elite. How many people need to buy a book before it?s a Best Seller? I
can?t answer that but I?ll bet it?s not in the many millions. Suppose it?s
five million- that?s out of over 300 million people. Tiny chance for
influences. The effects on society, if any, are probably only on the top 5%
of the population, not counting romance novels.  Can you think of any
public policies that originated with Freud, or Shakespeare?

As for philosophy, the same applies - hardly anyone read it. Most people
couldn?t understand it. Leaders of civilization probably read military
stuff. Have there been Aristotelian countries? Kantian? It?s a joke.

Don?t confuse what goes on in college with world-shaking ideas.  bill w
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Jun 28 14:05:57 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2021 09:05:57 -0500
Subject: [ExI] getting high
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbp7GNVszHhh3cd-=XajPm1k05VX27+6UYeEG9LgkXE6w@mail.gmail.com>

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSf7Fs5gzrcJDUx_75JkZu6xwyGzJ3N9BfyOm6AzOJtqw4Ae3w/viewform

Stare for ten minutes.  Get high or experience nothing - maybe.   bill w
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Jun 28 16:46:11 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2021 09:46:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] florida building collapse
Message-ID: <001801d76c3d$1a96e320$4fc4a960$@rainier66.com>

 

 

 

When I first heard of that Florida building collapse, my first thought was sinkhole.  We know those things happen there: the landscape has limestone formations all over the place.  Limestone is calcium carbonate.  Its solubility under pressure is greater than when not under pressure.  I assumed that the tower put more pressure on a limestone formation that eventually gave out after 40 yrs.

 

Now I hear something weird.  Someone who perished on the 4th floor was on the phone with her husband when she reported that the swimming pool was gone.  OK sinkhole (rather than salt air degrading steel structure (which I never believed (because plenty of places have both salt spray and steel (and prevailing winds push most of that out to see from Miami (and buildings have a huuuuuge safety margin, huge, overkill (but it doesn?t matter how big is the structural margin if the ground below the building gives out.)))))  But I would assume the pressure on the limestone below the building would be way higher than the pressure below the pool.  So now I don?t understand.

 

Sheesh, sinkhole takes down condo.  Helva note.

 

spike

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From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Jun 28 16:58:17 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2021 09:58:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] florida building collapse
In-Reply-To: <001801d76c3d$1a96e320$4fc4a960$@rainier66.com>
References: <001801d76c3d$1a96e320$4fc4a960$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTdQD2j6K8=ja97COGV010oK4GwLaeicp6MviuPe4vPsw@mail.gmail.com>

Maybe she just noticed the swimming pool empty because she didn't have line
of sight to see what was happening to the lower floors of the building she
was in?

On Mon, Jun 28, 2021 at 9:47 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>
> When I first heard of that Florida building collapse, my first thought was
> sinkhole.  We know those things happen there: the landscape has limestone
> formations all over the place.  Limestone is calcium carbonate.  Its
> solubility under pressure is greater than when not under pressure.  I
> assumed that the tower put more pressure on a limestone formation that
> eventually gave out after 40 yrs.
>
>
>
> Now I hear something weird.  Someone who perished on the 4th floor was on
> the phone with her husband when she reported that the swimming pool was
> gone.  OK sinkhole (rather than salt air degrading steel structure (which I
> never believed (because plenty of places have both salt spray and steel
> (and prevailing winds push most of that out to see from Miami (and
> buildings have a huuuuuge safety margin, huge, overkill (but it doesn?t
> matter how big is the structural margin if the ground below the building
> gives out.)))))  But I would assume the pressure on the limestone below the
> building would be way higher than the pressure below the pool.  So now I
> don?t understand.
>
>
>
> Sheesh, sinkhole takes down condo.  Helva note.
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Jun 28 17:56:02 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2021 10:56:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] florida building collapse
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTdQD2j6K8=ja97COGV010oK4GwLaeicp6MviuPe4vPsw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001801d76c3d$1a96e320$4fc4a960$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNTdQD2j6K8=ja97COGV010oK4GwLaeicp6MviuPe4vPsw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004001d76c46$dcaf3760$960da620$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] florida building collapse

 

>?Maybe she just noticed the swimming pool empty because she didn't have line of sight to see what was happening to the lower floors of the building she was in?  spike

 

 

Adrian help me make sense of this photo pls:

 

 



 

 

The woman who was on the phone told her husband that the pool deck had caved in:

 



 

We can see the pool deck has dropped down looks like a good coupla meters and I can see the pool is empty, but I don?t see water over the dropped pool deck.

 

What does that tell us?  Where did the pool water go?  Usually a sinkhole is an underground cave filled with water, but this one didn?t have water down there.  I can?t figure out why because the sea level is only a few ft below that bottom floor.  Where I cheerfully squandered my tragically misspent childhood, a young miscreant could not dig a hole deeper than about 5 ft before hitting mud.  Another ft below that, the hole would fill with water as fast as she could haul it out.

 

I don?t understand how there could have been a big dry underground cave, but the initial photos suggested it: 12 stories of debris would make a taller pile than it looks like, unless a good portion of the debris is currently below the surrounding ground level.

 

Imagine the psychological impact for anyone, particularly Floridians, who live or work in high rise buildings.  Every time they hear a creak or pop, they will hafta wonder if their time on this mortal coil is drawing to an abrupt close within seconds.  That would hafta break one?s concentration.

 

spike

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From bronto at pobox.com  Mon Jun 28 17:18:21 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2021 10:18:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] florida building collapse
In-Reply-To: <001801d76c3d$1a96e320$4fc4a960$@rainier66.com>
References: <001801d76c3d$1a96e320$4fc4a960$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <4726a0f2-abf9-ad28-640f-8c25d03cf552@pobox.com>

On 2021-6-28 09:46, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:
> Now I hear something weird.  Someone who perished on the 4^th floor
> was on the phone with her husband when she reported that the swimming
> pool was gone.

Somehow that reminds me of the first(?) episode of ?Jericho?.

> OK sinkhole (rather than salt air degrading steel structure (which
> I never believed (because plenty of places have both salt spray and
> steel (and prevailing winds push most of that out to see from Miami 
> ([...]))))

And what does the steel see when the winds push it out?

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org



From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Jun 28 18:16:50 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2021 11:16:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] florida building collapse
In-Reply-To: <004001d76c46$dcaf3760$960da620$@rainier66.com>
References: <001801d76c3d$1a96e320$4fc4a960$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNTdQD2j6K8=ja97COGV010oK4GwLaeicp6MviuPe4vPsw@mail.gmail.com>
 <004001d76c46$dcaf3760$960da620$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRKg_3y46LHe6ZAGV+pbo1PBriNrSmM1=2qMDm=yPnKeg@mail.gmail.com>

(Quoting Spike's letter in full to preserve the photos.)

It looks to me like there is still water in the left (deeper) side of the
pool, and that the collapsed area - at least the surface part - does not
quite intersect the pool, though the debris suggests the collapse might
have intersected the pool's plumbing, draining part but not all of the
pool.  Just to the pool's right, there is more than enough collapsed space
for most of the pool's water to have sloshed out onto - thus, there's no
need to speculate about whether the sinkhole itself was wet or dry, when
the "missing" water could have spilled out on top of the collapse (and then
evaporated).

On Mon, Jun 28, 2021 at 10:57 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] florida building collapse
>
>
>
> >?Maybe she just noticed the swimming pool empty because she didn't have
> line of sight to see what was happening to the lower floors of the building
> she was in?  spike
>
>
>
>
>
> Adrian help me make sense of this photo pls:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The woman who was on the phone told her husband that the pool deck had
> caved in:
>
>
>
>
>
> We can see the pool deck has dropped down looks like a good coupla meters
> and I can see the pool is empty, but I don?t see water over the dropped
> pool deck.
>
>
>
> What does that tell us?  Where did the pool water go?  Usually a sinkhole
> is an underground cave filled with water, but this one didn?t have water
> down there.  I can?t figure out why because the sea level is only a few ft
> below that bottom floor.  Where I cheerfully squandered my tragically
> misspent childhood, a young miscreant could not dig a hole deeper than
> about 5 ft before hitting mud.  Another ft below that, the hole would fill
> with water as fast as she could haul it out.
>
>
>
> I don?t understand how there could have been a big dry underground cave,
> but the initial photos suggested it: 12 stories of debris would make a
> taller pile than it looks like, unless a good portion of the debris is
> currently below the surrounding ground level.
>
>
>
> Imagine the psychological impact for anyone, particularly Floridians, who
> live or work in high rise buildings.  Every time they hear a creak or pop,
> they will hafta wonder if their time on this mortal coil is drawing to an
> abrupt close within seconds.  That would hafta break one?s concentration.
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Jun 28 18:54:14 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2021 11:54:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] florida building collapse
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRKg_3y46LHe6ZAGV+pbo1PBriNrSmM1=2qMDm=yPnKeg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001801d76c3d$1a96e320$4fc4a960$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNTdQD2j6K8=ja97COGV010oK4GwLaeicp6MviuPe4vPsw@mail.gmail.com>
 <004001d76c46$dcaf3760$960da620$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNRKg_3y46LHe6ZAGV+pbo1PBriNrSmM1=2qMDm=yPnKeg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000e01d76c4e$fddb1000$f9913000$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2021 11:17 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] florida building collapse

 

(Quoting Spike's letter in full to preserve the photos.)

>?It looks to me like there is still water in the left (deeper) side of the pool, and that the collapsed area - at least the surface part - does not quite intersect the pool, though the debris suggests the collapse might have intersected the pool's plumbing, draining part but not all of the pool.  Just to the pool's right, there is more than enough collapsed space for most of the pool's water to have sloshed out onto - thus, there's no need to speculate about whether the sinkhole itself was wet or dry, when the "missing" water could have spilled out on top of the collapse (and then evaporated).

 

 

Or drained somewhere, ja.  Not evaporated.  Adrian you have had the good fortune to grow up in a dry climate.  In Florida, particularly in the summer, the humidity is seldom much below 80%.  One can go to the locker room early before anyone else is around, get a shower, track thru on the concrete floor, come back an hour later and wet tracks are still clearly visible.

 

This is part of what is puzzling: the elevation is so low in most of those areas, there isn?t much space for water to drain anywhere.  I see what you meant that the deep end of the pool still contains water, which suggests it wasn?t broken pipes below that drained the pool.  A pool drain is at the deepest part of the deep end, one place only (usually.)  the shallow end of a standard pool is usually 4 ft.  This looks like the water might have drained through structural compromise of the shallow end, closest to where the deck gave out.

 

This photo points away from the structural engineers and toward the geologists who certified the site for a mid-rise.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

On Mon, Jun 28, 2021 at 10:57 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> > On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] florida building collapse

 

>?Maybe she just noticed the swimming pool empty because she didn't have line of sight to see what was happening to the lower floors of the building she was in?  spike

 

 

Adrian help me make sense of this photo pls:

 

 



 

 

The woman who was on the phone told her husband that the pool deck had caved in:

 



 

We can see the pool deck has dropped down looks like a good coupla meters and I can see the pool is empty, but I don?t see water over the dropped pool deck.

 

What does that tell us?  Where did the pool water go?  Usually a sinkhole is an underground cave filled with water, but this one didn?t have water down there.  I can?t figure out why because the sea level is only a few ft below that bottom floor.  Where I cheerfully squandered my tragically misspent childhood, a young miscreant could not dig a hole deeper than about 5 ft before hitting mud.  Another ft below that, the hole would fill with water as fast as she could haul it out.

 

I don?t understand how there could have been a big dry underground cave, but the initial photos suggested it: 12 stories of debris would make a taller pile than it looks like, unless a good portion of the debris is currently below the surrounding ground level.

 

Imagine the psychological impact for anyone, particularly Floridians, who live or work in high rise buildings.  Every time they hear a creak or pop, they will hafta wonder if their time on this mortal coil is drawing to an abrupt close within seconds.  That would hafta break one?s concentration.

 

spike

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Jun 28 19:24:04 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2021 12:24:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] florida building collapse
In-Reply-To: <000e01d76c4e$fddb1000$f9913000$@rainier66.com>
References: <001801d76c3d$1a96e320$4fc4a960$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNTdQD2j6K8=ja97COGV010oK4GwLaeicp6MviuPe4vPsw@mail.gmail.com>
 <004001d76c46$dcaf3760$960da620$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNRKg_3y46LHe6ZAGV+pbo1PBriNrSmM1=2qMDm=yPnKeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <000e01d76c4e$fddb1000$f9913000$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTsU=RVuFtjue9EE8sfmVaOTxkFm4rgC--JyBD+ccxLbQ@mail.gmail.com>

Random thought: there is no record of underground construction or expansion
in the area, is there?

On Mon, Jun 28, 2021 at 11:55 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
> *Sent:* Monday, June 28, 2021 11:17 AM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Cc:* Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] florida building collapse
>
>
>
> (Quoting Spike's letter in full to preserve the photos.)
>
> >?It looks to me like there is still water in the left (deeper) side of
> the pool, and that the collapsed area - at least the surface part - does
> not quite intersect the pool, though the debris suggests the collapse might
> have intersected the pool's plumbing, draining part but not all of the
> pool.  Just to the pool's right, there is more than enough collapsed space
> for most of the pool's water to have sloshed out onto - thus, there's no
> need to speculate about whether the sinkhole itself was wet or dry, when
> the "missing" water could have spilled out on top of the collapse (and then
> evaporated).
>
>
>
>
>
> Or drained somewhere, ja.  Not evaporated.  Adrian you have had the good
> fortune to grow up in a dry climate.  In Florida, particularly in the
> summer, the humidity is seldom much below 80%.  One can go to the locker
> room early before anyone else is around, get a shower, track thru on the
> concrete floor, come back an hour later and wet tracks are still clearly
> visible.
>
>
>
> This is part of what is puzzling: the elevation is so low in most of those
> areas, there isn?t much space for water to drain anywhere.  I see what you
> meant that the deep end of the pool still contains water, which suggests it
> wasn?t broken pipes below that drained the pool.  A pool drain is at the
> deepest part of the deep end, one place only (usually.)  the shallow end of
> a standard pool is usually 4 ft.  This looks like the water might have
> drained through structural compromise of the shallow end, closest to where
> the deck gave out.
>
>
>
> This photo points away from the structural engineers and toward the
> geologists who certified the site for a mid-rise.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 28, 2021 at 10:57 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] florida building collapse
>
>
>
> >?Maybe she just noticed the swimming pool empty because she didn't have
> line of sight to see what was happening to the lower floors of the building
> she was in?  spike
>
>
>
>
>
> Adrian help me make sense of this photo pls:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The woman who was on the phone told her husband that the pool deck had
> caved in:
>
>
>
>
>
> We can see the pool deck has dropped down looks like a good coupla meters
> and I can see the pool is empty, but I don?t see water over the dropped
> pool deck.
>
>
>
> What does that tell us?  Where did the pool water go?  Usually a sinkhole
> is an underground cave filled with water, but this one didn?t have water
> down there.  I can?t figure out why because the sea level is only a few ft
> below that bottom floor.  Where I cheerfully squandered my tragically
> misspent childhood, a young miscreant could not dig a hole deeper than
> about 5 ft before hitting mud.  Another ft below that, the hole would fill
> with water as fast as she could haul it out.
>
>
>
> I don?t understand how there could have been a big dry underground cave,
> but the initial photos suggested it: 12 stories of debris would make a
> taller pile than it looks like, unless a good portion of the debris is
> currently below the surrounding ground level.
>
>
>
> Imagine the psychological impact for anyone, particularly Floridians, who
> live or work in high rise buildings.  Every time they hear a creak or pop,
> they will hafta wonder if their time on this mortal coil is drawing to an
> abrupt close within seconds.  That would hafta break one?s concentration.
>
>
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Jun 28 20:02:23 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2021 13:02:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] florida building collapse
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTsU=RVuFtjue9EE8sfmVaOTxkFm4rgC--JyBD+ccxLbQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001801d76c3d$1a96e320$4fc4a960$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNTdQD2j6K8=ja97COGV010oK4GwLaeicp6MviuPe4vPsw@mail.gmail.com>
 <004001d76c46$dcaf3760$960da620$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNRKg_3y46LHe6ZAGV+pbo1PBriNrSmM1=2qMDm=yPnKeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <000e01d76c4e$fddb1000$f9913000$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNTsU=RVuFtjue9EE8sfmVaOTxkFm4rgC--JyBD+ccxLbQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002301d76c58$83206860$89613920$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] florida building collapse

 

>?Random thought: there is no record of underground construction or expansion in the area, is there?

 

 

I don?t think so.  Florida has very little underground anything.

 

spike

 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Jun 28 22:07:41 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2021 17:07:41 -0500
Subject: [ExI] florida building collapse
In-Reply-To: <002301d76c58$83206860$89613920$@rainier66.com>
References: <001801d76c3d$1a96e320$4fc4a960$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNTdQD2j6K8=ja97COGV010oK4GwLaeicp6MviuPe4vPsw@mail.gmail.com>
 <004001d76c46$dcaf3760$960da620$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNRKg_3y46LHe6ZAGV+pbo1PBriNrSmM1=2qMDm=yPnKeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <000e01d76c4e$fddb1000$f9913000$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNTsU=RVuFtjue9EE8sfmVaOTxkFm4rgC--JyBD+ccxLbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002301d76c58$83206860$89613920$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEb5+_UUWvhKi7TZ4rtESFqAjuDMc47BCbowqj8L+9sijg@mail.gmail.com>

Maybe y'all have not seen the report that the building was
undergoing belated repairs after an inspection a few years ago.  bill w

On Mon, Jun 28, 2021 at 3:04 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] florida building collapse
>
>
>
> >?Random thought: there is no record of underground construction or
> expansion in the area, is there?
>
>
>
>
>
> I don?t think so.  Florida has very little underground anything.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From guessmyneeds at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 29 00:22:04 2021
From: guessmyneeds at yahoo.com (Sherry Knepper)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 00:22:04 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ExI] florida building collapse
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEb5+_UUWvhKi7TZ4rtESFqAjuDMc47BCbowqj8L+9sijg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001801d76c3d$1a96e320$4fc4a960$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNTdQD2j6K8=ja97COGV010oK4GwLaeicp6MviuPe4vPsw@mail.gmail.com>
 <004001d76c46$dcaf3760$960da620$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNRKg_3y46LHe6ZAGV+pbo1PBriNrSmM1=2qMDm=yPnKeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <000e01d76c4e$fddb1000$f9913000$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNTsU=RVuFtjue9EE8sfmVaOTxkFm4rgC--JyBD+ccxLbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002301d76c58$83206860$89613920$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEb5+_UUWvhKi7TZ4rtESFqAjuDMc47BCbowqj8L+9sijg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <335119953.582670.1624926124949@mail.yahoo.com>

My mom told me the news said someone is already suing over the building collapse.

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Mon, Jun 28, 2021 at 6:14 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:   _______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
  
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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Tue Jun 29 01:32:32 2021
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2021 21:32:32 -0400
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=9CCorrupted_Blood=E2=80=9D_and_Covid?=
Message-ID: <910642B2-AEC1-4A39-AD7B-CC9D7EA5F4C4@gmail.com>

In 2005, WoW experienced a worldwide pandemic of ?corrupted blood?, which epidemiologists considered to be very interesting from an infectious disease standpoint. 

(Video) https://youtu.be/9nP0ot-gnso

Not mentioned in the video was the phenomenon of players intentionally spreading the disease. Similar to a ?covid party?, or the regrettable phenomenon of some people with HIV intentionally spreading it. (Link for disbelievers: https://www.poz.com/article/uk-man-gets-life-prison-deliberately-spreading-hiv)

(Wiki) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrupted_Blood_incident 



SR Ballard
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Jun 29 14:33:00 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 09:33:00 -0500
Subject: [ExI] emotions and decision making
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaLFoT+w5Tmjk+BYZacd0ZB89bPA453e90=aQ3C=u_zqw@mail.gmail.com>

How would human behaviour be more or less ethical and/or moral if the
processes of decision making was conducted in the absence of emotional
attachment?  from quora

Can?t be done. A man with a brain injury which detached the emotional
center from the frontal cortex could not make a simple decision. Coffee?
Could not decide.

So the question is moot: we simply cannot do it. You are assuming that all
emotional things are irrational. Think of them as nonrational. Emotions
makes perfectly good sense: we enjoy food, sex, beauty and so on. All great
emotions.

Fear keeps us safe. Let?s hear it for fear! Of course any emotion can be
bad. Too much lust could lead to rape. Too much fear leads to phobias and
shyness. Too much enjoyment of food can lead to obesity, and so on for all
emotions.

Be thankful for your emotions. Like anything else, they could lead you to
bad decisions, but without them we are zombies who can make no decisions at
all.
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Jun 29 17:31:20 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 12:31:20 -0500
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] emotions and decision making
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-ont+kFiHX8SyLHxtJKYOho_uWr3zX86OAY-ZLJX1g+iinw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaLFoT+w5Tmjk+BYZacd0ZB89bPA453e90=aQ3C=u_zqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <E982870B-0DBC-44F8-A9B2-6DBA27B7DC8B@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ7fK8Cdq1Qd1+nAs49USAptS+e5VZH0dyv+6C8haP_1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-ont+kFiHX8SyLHxtJKYOho_uWr3zX86OAY-ZLJX1g+iinw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaKfB3PmOKPO2iC7uU3YhT6DCXhZQ4HYC-CTab0Ad=nVg@mail.gmail.com>

Huh?  I assume that what we want to do brings us pleasure.  It's the things
we have to do that can be boring and joyless.  bill w

On Tue, Jun 29, 2021 at 12:25 PM Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I think rewarding pleasures can be wired to anything.  I just look forward
> to the time when we can cut the puppet strings evolution has wired, so we
> can wire rewarding joys to what we want to do, instead.
>
> On Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 11:18 AM William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> It depends.  Power and control will be factors in a person who repeatedly
>> rapes - lust more a factor in date rape, I think.  One black man who wrote
>> a book on it (name escapes me), said he raped white women anally to make
>> them more humiliated.  Even in date rape there is some control there.  Lust
>> always there or no action.  bill w
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 29, 2021 at 11:39 AM SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I don?t think that the most normal motivator for rape is lust (except
>>> perhaps date rape?), but rather power and control.
>>>
>>> SR Ballard
>>>
>>> On Jun 29, 2021, at 10:33 AM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> ?
>>> How would human behaviour be more or less ethical and/or moral if the
>>> processes of decision making was conducted in the absence of emotional
>>> attachment?  from quora
>>>
>>> Can?t be done. A man with a brain injury which detached the emotional
>>> center from the frontal cortex could not make a simple decision. Coffee?
>>> Could not decide.
>>>
>>> So the question is moot: we simply cannot do it. You are assuming that
>>> all emotional things are irrational. Think of them as nonrational. Emotions
>>> makes perfectly good sense: we enjoy food, sex, beauty and so on. All great
>>> emotions.
>>>
>>> Fear keeps us safe. Let?s hear it for fear! Of course any emotion can be
>>> bad. Too much lust could lead to rape. Too much fear leads to phobias and
>>> shyness. Too much enjoyment of food can lead to obesity, and so on for all
>>> emotions.
>>>
>>> Be thankful for your emotions. Like anything else, they could lead you
>>> to bad decisions, but without them we are zombies who can make no decisions
>>> at all.
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "extropolis" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAO%2BxQEaLFoT%2Bw5Tmjk%2BBYZacd0ZB89bPA453e90%3DaQ3C%3Du_zqw%40mail.gmail.com
>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAO%2BxQEaLFoT%2Bw5Tmjk%2BBYZacd0ZB89bPA453e90%3DaQ3C%3Du_zqw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>> .
>>>
>>> --
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>>> Groups "extropolis" group.
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>>> an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/E982870B-0DBC-44F8-A9B2-6DBA27B7DC8B%40gmail.com
>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/E982870B-0DBC-44F8-A9B2-6DBA27B7DC8B%40gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>> .
>>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "extropolis" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
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>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAO%2BxQEZ7fK8Cdq1Qd1%2BnAs49USAptS%2Be5VZH0dyv%2B6C8haP_1A%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>> .
>>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
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> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAK7-ont%2BkFiHX8SyLHxtJKYOho_uWr3zX86OAY-ZLJX1g%2Biinw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>
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From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Tue Jun 29 18:16:18 2021
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 12:16:18 -0600
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] emotions and decision making
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaKfB3PmOKPO2iC7uU3YhT6DCXhZQ4HYC-CTab0Ad=nVg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaLFoT+w5Tmjk+BYZacd0ZB89bPA453e90=aQ3C=u_zqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <E982870B-0DBC-44F8-A9B2-6DBA27B7DC8B@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ7fK8Cdq1Qd1+nAs49USAptS+e5VZH0dyv+6C8haP_1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-ont+kFiHX8SyLHxtJKYOho_uWr3zX86OAY-ZLJX1g+iinw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaKfB3PmOKPO2iC7uU3YhT6DCXhZQ4HYC-CTab0Ad=nVg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onsBBSFt=n7btXuDOmQsJwcJM0QZctLnBCAFNFjYTYoW7Q@mail.gmail.com>

As I was saying on HR Ballard's forked '?Lust? and sexual violence' thread,
everyone is talking at the composite qualia level.  All these things are
computationally bound elemental intrinsic qualities.

Evolution has wired taking out the garbage to be composed of disgusting
smells and such, while evolution has wired sex to some very different set
of elemental qualities.  Evolution wanted us to have sex.
There is no reason you couldn't simply reverse engineer these, and wire
them to be the opposite of each other.  Couldn't a simple re-wiring result
in taking out the garbage being orgasmic?

Wouldn't you agree that Dog's enjoyable knowledge of shit must be
programmed to be something very different than the disquieting smells
our brain represents knowledge of shit with, right?

I want to be able to do such reconfigurations, when I want to take out the
garbage.

Again, it is important to differentiate reality and knowledge of reality
<https://canonizer.com/videos/consciousness/?chapter=differentiate_reality_knowledge>
.






On Tue, Jun 29, 2021 at 11:31 AM William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Huh?  I assume that what we want to do brings us pleasure.  It's the
> things we have to do that can be boring and joyless.  bill w
>
> On Tue, Jun 29, 2021 at 12:25 PM Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I think rewarding pleasures can be wired to anything.  I just look
>> forward to the time when we can cut the puppet strings evolution has wired,
>> so we can wire rewarding joys to what we want to do, instead.
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 11:18 AM William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> It depends.  Power and control will be factors in a person who
>>> repeatedly rapes - lust more a factor in date rape, I think.  One black man
>>> who wrote a book on it (name escapes me), said he raped white women anally
>>> to make them more humiliated.  Even in date rape there is some control
>>> there.  Lust always there or no action.  bill w
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 29, 2021 at 11:39 AM SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don?t think that the most normal motivator for rape is lust (except
>>>> perhaps date rape?), but rather power and control.
>>>>
>>>> SR Ballard
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 29, 2021, at 10:33 AM, William Flynn Wallace <
>>>> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ?
>>>> How would human behaviour be more or less ethical and/or moral if the
>>>> processes of decision making was conducted in the absence of emotional
>>>> attachment?  from quora
>>>>
>>>> Can?t be done. A man with a brain injury which detached the emotional
>>>> center from the frontal cortex could not make a simple decision. Coffee?
>>>> Could not decide.
>>>>
>>>> So the question is moot: we simply cannot do it. You are assuming that
>>>> all emotional things are irrational. Think of them as nonrational. Emotions
>>>> makes perfectly good sense: we enjoy food, sex, beauty and so on. All great
>>>> emotions.
>>>>
>>>> Fear keeps us safe. Let?s hear it for fear! Of course any emotion can
>>>> be bad. Too much lust could lead to rape. Too much fear leads to phobias
>>>> and shyness. Too much enjoyment of food can lead to obesity, and so on for
>>>> all emotions.
>>>>
>>>> Be thankful for your emotions. Like anything else, they could lead you
>>>> to bad decisions, but without them we are zombies who can make no decisions
>>>> at all.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>> Groups "extropolis" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>>> an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAO%2BxQEaLFoT%2Bw5Tmjk%2BBYZacd0ZB89bPA453e90%3DaQ3C%3Du_zqw%40mail.gmail.com
>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAO%2BxQEaLFoT%2Bw5Tmjk%2BBYZacd0ZB89bPA453e90%3DaQ3C%3Du_zqw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>> Groups "extropolis" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>>> an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/E982870B-0DBC-44F8-A9B2-6DBA27B7DC8B%40gmail.com
>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/E982870B-0DBC-44F8-A9B2-6DBA27B7DC8B%40gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "extropolis" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAO%2BxQEZ7fK8Cdq1Qd1%2BnAs49USAptS%2Be5VZH0dyv%2B6C8haP_1A%40mail.gmail.com
>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAO%2BxQEZ7fK8Cdq1Qd1%2BnAs49USAptS%2Be5VZH0dyv%2B6C8haP_1A%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>> .
>>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "extropolis" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAK7-ont%2BkFiHX8SyLHxtJKYOho_uWr3zX86OAY-ZLJX1g%2Biinw%40mail.gmail.com
>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAK7-ont%2BkFiHX8SyLHxtJKYOho_uWr3zX86OAY-ZLJX1g%2Biinw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>> .
>>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAO%2BxQEaKfB3PmOKPO2iC7uU3YhT6DCXhZQ4HYC-CTab0Ad%3DnVg%40mail.gmail.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAO%2BxQEaKfB3PmOKPO2iC7uU3YhT6DCXhZQ4HYC-CTab0Ad%3DnVg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Jun 29 18:36:31 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 13:36:31 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 
 =?utf-8?b?W0V4dHJvcG9saXNdIOKAnEx1c3TigJ0gYW5kIHNleHVhbCB2?=
 =?utf-8?q?iolence?=
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onub_bBCVg6xMU7=41AiYQin4sOP_-NQMv+_9hmtzp87bQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <91336FA6-0D48-429C-963B-8DC4C9D709F6@gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onub_bBCVg6xMU7=41AiYQin4sOP_-NQMv+_9hmtzp87bQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaaMh-hvoapunMROEAfT_8c087U-WaV8HAc4B2z-F97Jw@mail.gmail.com>

We are talking about joy, when that is a fairly rare thing. The most common
emotion is just satisfaction - a little nod of the head, a little smile.
Pride is certainly like that - no tears, no big heart rate increase, no
ecstasy.  Wouldn't it be nice, though, if other things in the world gave us
their equivalent of orgasms?

bill w

On Tue, Jun 29, 2021 at 12:59 PM Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> "Orgasms, eating, doing drugs, and winning" and most everything else we
> are talking about, including sadism, are composite qualia.  I think there
> is an elemental qualia level, (like redness and greenness) out of which all
> these things can be built or programmed, similar to the way you can paint a
> picture out of an elemental color pallet.
>
> Pride could be some joy wired to knowledge of others doing good.  Sadism
> could be similar joy, wired to knowledge of someone suffering.  To me it is
> important to Distinguish reality from knowledge of reality
> <https://canonizer.com/videos/consciousness/?chapter=differentiate_reality_knowledge>
> .
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 29, 2021 at 11:36 AM SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Pleasure and lust are not the same. Orgasms, eating, doing drugs, and
>> winning are all pleasurable but none of them require lust.
>>
>> ? Rapists have also been classified based upon motivational
>> characteristics. Groth (1979) created a typology based upon the degree of
>> aggression, the underlying motivation of the offender and the existence of
>> other antisocial behaviors, which resulted in four types of rapists. The
>> power-reassurance or sexual-aim rapist is characterized by feelings of
>> inadequacy and poor social skills and does not inflict injury upon his
>> victims (National Center for Women and Policing, 2001). The violence used
>> by the power-reassurance rapist is only sufficient to achieve the
>> compliance of the victim or to complete the sexual act. Such an individual
>> may perceive that the victim has shown a sexual interest in him, or that by
>> the use of force the victim will grow to like him (Craissati, 2005). The
>> power-assertive or antisocial rapist is impulsive, uses aggressive methods
>> of control and abuses substances. His sexual assaults are often unplanned
>> and he is unlikely to use a weapon (Groth, 1979). The third type of rapist
>> is the anger-retaliation or aggressive-aim rapist, who is motivated by
>> power and aggression. This individual sexually assaults for retaliatory
>> reasons and often degrades or humiliates the victim.
>>
>> The fourth type is the sadistic rapist, who reenacts sexual fantasies
>> involving torture or pain. Sexual sadism is defined as the repeated
>> practice of cruel sexual behavior that is combined with fantasy and
>> characterized by a desire to control the victim (MacCullock et al., 1983).
>> This type is characterized by extensive planning and may often result in
>> sexual murder (Groth, 1979). Although it has been reported in only 5
>> percent of rapists (see Craissati, 2005, for a review), sexual sadism has
>> consistently been shown as a strong predictor of both sexual and violent
>> recidivism (Hanson & Morton-Bourgon, 2005).?
>> (Source: https://smart.ojp.gov/somapi/chapter-3-sex-offender-typologies)
>>
>> SR Ballard
>>
>> On Jun 29, 2021, at 1:12 PM, Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> ?
>> It could be configured that way, but you'd still need some pleasure,
>> wired up to that having control, otherwise not?
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 10:39 AM SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I don?t think that the most normal motivator for rape is lust (except
>>> perhaps date rape?), but rather power and control.
>>>
>>> SR Ballard
>>>
>>> On Jun 29, 2021, at 10:33 AM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> ?
>>> How would human behaviour be more or less ethical and/or moral if the
>>> processes of decision making was conducted in the absence of emotional
>>> attachment?  from quora
>>>
>>> Can?t be done. A man with a brain injury which detached the emotional
>>> center from the frontal cortex could not make a simple decision. Coffee?
>>> Could not decide.
>>>
>>> So the question is moot: we simply cannot do it. You are assuming that
>>> all emotional things are irrational. Think of them as nonrational. Emotions
>>> makes perfectly good sense: we enjoy food, sex, beauty and so on. All great
>>> emotions.
>>>
>>> Fear keeps us safe. Let?s hear it for fear! Of course any emotion can be
>>> bad. Too much lust could lead to rape. Too much fear leads to phobias and
>>> shyness. Too much enjoyment of food can lead to obesity, and so on for all
>>> emotions.
>>>
>>> Be thankful for your emotions. Like anything else, they could lead you
>>> to bad decisions, but without them we are zombies who can make no decisions
>>> at all.
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "extropolis" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAO%2BxQEaLFoT%2Bw5Tmjk%2BBYZacd0ZB89bPA453e90%3DaQ3C%3Du_zqw%40mail.gmail.com
>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAO%2BxQEaLFoT%2Bw5Tmjk%2BBYZacd0ZB89bPA453e90%3DaQ3C%3Du_zqw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>> .
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
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>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/E982870B-0DBC-44F8-A9B2-6DBA27B7DC8B%40gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>> .
>>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "extropolis" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAK7-onv6FPg%3DYpt_VzZ2G9aXq_%2Bt18hwTrjiEk9q%3DsRjm84SGg%40mail.gmail.com
>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAK7-onv6FPg%3DYpt_VzZ2G9aXq_%2Bt18hwTrjiEk9q%3DsRjm84SGg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>> .
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "extropolis" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/91336FA6-0D48-429C-963B-8DC4C9D709F6%40gmail.com
>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/91336FA6-0D48-429C-963B-8DC4C9D709F6%40gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>> .
>>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
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> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAK7-onub_bBCVg6xMU7%3D41AiYQin4sOP_-NQMv%2B_9hmtzp87bQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
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From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Tue Jun 29 20:21:45 2021
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 14:21:45 -0600
Subject: [ExI] 
 =?utf-8?b?W0V4dHJvcG9saXNdIOKAnEx1c3TigJ0gYW5kIHNleHVhbCB2?=
 =?utf-8?q?iolence?=
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaaMh-hvoapunMROEAfT_8c087U-WaV8HAc4B2z-F97Jw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <91336FA6-0D48-429C-963B-8DC4C9D709F6@gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onub_bBCVg6xMU7=41AiYQin4sOP_-NQMv+_9hmtzp87bQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaaMh-hvoapunMROEAfT_8c087U-WaV8HAc4B2z-F97Jw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onvS0vVjgHY_HiD_vR5eBBU=HVEFvWE0wUqc6YvLZmRpdQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 29, 2021 at 12:36 PM William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Wouldn't it be nice, though, if other things in the world gave us their
> equivalent of orgasms?
>
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAO%2BxQEaaMh-hvoapunMROEAfT_8c087U-WaV8HAc4B2z-F97Jw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>


Exactly, to say nothing of discovering new elemental qualia no human has
ever experienced, and ever more complex ways of binding them all...
I'm just a normal trichromat.  I can't wait to experience that 4th color,
Tetrachromats represent some of the same visual spectrum with, which I have
never experienced.

Here's to a future of Qualia discovery and consciousness engineering, a
future of cutting the evolutionary(or godly?) puppet strings and rewiring
them to be the way we want them to be.
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Jun 29 21:49:44 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 16:49:44 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 
 =?utf-8?b?W0V4dHJvcG9saXNdIOKAnEx1c3TigJ0gYW5kIHNleHVhbCB2?=
 =?utf-8?q?iolence?=
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onvS0vVjgHY_HiD_vR5eBBU=HVEFvWE0wUqc6YvLZmRpdQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <91336FA6-0D48-429C-963B-8DC4C9D709F6@gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onub_bBCVg6xMU7=41AiYQin4sOP_-NQMv+_9hmtzp87bQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaaMh-hvoapunMROEAfT_8c087U-WaV8HAc4B2z-F97Jw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onvS0vVjgHY_HiD_vR5eBBU=HVEFvWE0wUqc6YvLZmRpdQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY=eG4DTR2xfvx3FDCBBM-xi_BKs7XqbyWDrKpLb=3TZA@mail.gmail.com>

Where would we stop?  If we could have an orgasm by pulling our left
earlobe anything we wanted to...........?  I think we have enough orgasms
(though I cannot speak for myself).  I would enhance our sense of smell so
that we could enjoy food, flowers, etc. so much more.  I would enhance
vision to the eagle level.  I would introduce a mute button to hearing and
add lower and higher frequencies.

Then I would make these enhanced senses last far into old age.  What
evolution's object is to make us, esp. men, deafer and deafer as we grow
older, is a puzzle.  Ditto cataracts.
But personally, life was a great deal, I think we can agree on that.

bill w
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Jun 30 00:16:31 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 17:16:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?b?W0V4dHJvcG9saXNdIOKAnEx1c3TigJ0gYW5kIHNleHVhbCB2?=
	=?utf-8?q?iolence?=
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEY=eG4DTR2xfvx3FDCBBM-xi_BKs7XqbyWDrKpLb=3TZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <91336FA6-0D48-429C-963B-8DC4C9D709F6@gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onub_bBCVg6xMU7=41AiYQin4sOP_-NQMv+_9hmtzp87bQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaaMh-hvoapunMROEAfT_8c087U-WaV8HAc4B2z-F97Jw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onvS0vVjgHY_HiD_vR5eBBU=HVEFvWE0wUqc6YvLZmRpdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEY=eG4DTR2xfvx3FDCBBM-xi_BKs7XqbyWDrKpLb=3TZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001901d76d45$2ec93bf0$8c5bb3d0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2021 2:50 PM
To: extropolis at googlegroups.com; ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] [Extropolis] ?Lust? and sexual violence

 

>?Where would we stop?  If we could have an orgasm by pulling our left earlobe?

 

The other way, we were told we would go blind.  This way, we go deaf.

 

>?  I would enhance our sense of smell so that we could enjoy food, flowers, etc. so much more?.

 

Eh, I would still go for the earlobe thing Billw.

 

>? I would enhance vision to the eagle level?

 

Eagle schmeagle.  Earlobe.

 

>?I would introduce a mute button to hearing and add lower and higher frequencies.

 

Unnecessary.  We would be deaf anyway, and one earlobe would be practically dragging the ground.

 

>?But personally, life was a great deal, I think we can agree on that.  bill w

 

Roger that bigtime.  I wouldn?t want to return mine for a refund.

 

spike

 

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From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Wed Jun 30 02:46:38 2021
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 20:46:38 -0600
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?b?W0V4dHJvcG9saXNdIOKAnEx1c3TigJ0gYW5kIHNleHVhbCB2?=
	=?utf-8?q?iolence?=
In-Reply-To: <001901d76d45$2ec93bf0$8c5bb3d0$@rainier66.com>
References: <91336FA6-0D48-429C-963B-8DC4C9D709F6@gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onub_bBCVg6xMU7=41AiYQin4sOP_-NQMv+_9hmtzp87bQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaaMh-hvoapunMROEAfT_8c087U-WaV8HAc4B2z-F97Jw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onvS0vVjgHY_HiD_vR5eBBU=HVEFvWE0wUqc6YvLZmRpdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEY=eG4DTR2xfvx3FDCBBM-xi_BKs7XqbyWDrKpLb=3TZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <001901d76d45$2ec93bf0$8c5bb3d0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-ontJLW+G-Jef3ivB9LZMPiJ3cyKzu2tAUNs9nZabUvELnQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 29, 2021 at 6:17 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> >?But personally, life was a great deal, I think we can agree on that.  bill
> w
>
> Roger that bigtime.  I wouldn?t want to return mine for a refund.
>

Roger that roger that big time.  I would even say just 5 minutes of
experiencing redness, alone, would be worth all the billions of years of
effort, done by all our ancestors before that to get us that.  Just because
you don't need to even pull your earlobe to see a strawberry, and even
though we experience redness all day every day, doesn't make redness any
less phenomenal, to say nothing of the entire rainbow and everything else.
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Jun 30 13:02:29 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 08:02:29 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?b?W0V4dHJvcG9saXNdIOKAnEx1c3TigJ0gYW5kIHNleHVhbCB2?=
	=?utf-8?q?iolence?=
In-Reply-To: <001901d76d45$2ec93bf0$8c5bb3d0$@rainier66.com>
References: <91336FA6-0D48-429C-963B-8DC4C9D709F6@gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onub_bBCVg6xMU7=41AiYQin4sOP_-NQMv+_9hmtzp87bQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaaMh-hvoapunMROEAfT_8c087U-WaV8HAc4B2z-F97Jw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onvS0vVjgHY_HiD_vR5eBBU=HVEFvWE0wUqc6YvLZmRpdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEY=eG4DTR2xfvx3FDCBBM-xi_BKs7XqbyWDrKpLb=3TZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <001901d76d45$2ec93bf0$8c5bb3d0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYu-VrF_dAvDPyNCz+Ok+UgcHmbJMQ_-4QXc41HDpWX8A@mail.gmail.com>

A rarity.  Extremely uncommon.  You made me laugh out loud.  Good way to
start the day.  bill w

On Tue, Jun 29, 2021 at 7:18 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 29, 2021 2:50 PM
> *To:* extropolis at googlegroups.com; ExI chat list <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] [Extropolis] ?Lust? and sexual violence
>
>
>
> >?Where would we stop?  If we could have an orgasm by pulling our left
> earlobe?
>
>
>
> The other way, we were told we would go blind.  This way, we go deaf.
>
>
>
> >?  I would enhance our sense of smell so that we could enjoy food,
> flowers, etc. so much more?.
>
>
>
> Eh, I would still go for the earlobe thing Billw.
>
>
>
> >? I would enhance vision to the eagle level?
>
>
>
> Eagle schmeagle.  Earlobe.
>
>
>
> >?I would introduce a mute button to hearing and add lower and higher
> frequencies.
>
>
>
> Unnecessary.  We would be deaf anyway, and one earlobe would be
> practically dragging the ground.
>
>
>
> >?But personally, life was a great deal, I think we can agree on that.  bill
> w
>
>
>
> Roger that bigtime.  I wouldn?t want to return mine for a refund.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Jun 30 13:33:50 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 06:33:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] uncommon lols
Message-ID: <004a01d76db4$90487ed0$b0d97c70$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] [Extropolis] ?Lust? and sexual violence

 

>?A rarity.  Extremely uncommon.  You made me laugh out loud.  Good way to start the day.  bill w

 

 

We all need more laughter in our lives.  Of all beasts, I know of no other species that does that, and just think about how much of a waste that is.

 

Consider domestic dogs and cats: those two in particular because they are often in the house with humans.  Consider all the stupid crazy funny things we do when only they are around.  We humans know they won?t tell, so we let ourselves be ourselves with our dogs and cats.  No matter how silly are the comments we make to them, they never laugh.  The dog kinda tilts his head in that way that makes us laugh, with that puzzled look on his face, as if to say ?whaaaaat in the helllllll?? He never laughs out loud.

 

The cat is even worse.  She pretends she doesn?t even notice, regardless of how absurd we act around them.  She never even smiles.  She?s all business: put the kibbles in the bowl, you two-legged monster, and we will get along just fine.  Never laughs at our silliness.

 

Oh wait, never mind.  I just realized why the dog never says anything, even when he sees us pulling our earlobe.  Reason: we know what he does.  He?s all, No problem sir, what plays in Vegas stays in Vegas.  I won?t tell if you won?t.

 

spike

 

 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Jun 30 13:53:53 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 08:53:53 -0500
Subject: [ExI] uncommon lols
In-Reply-To: <004a01d76db4$90487ed0$b0d97c70$@rainier66.com>
References: <004a01d76db4$90487ed0$b0d97c70$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaAQQZ4F4t_+VUU22mHqLPt=w_N3aTVzeAUMXJzHSBaWA@mail.gmail.com>

'Keep your head up'. Good advice.  Tilting the head downwards starts
depressive type chemicals in our brains - quickly.  Over and over I see
studies and reports of humor helping keep people healthy.

Ergo - Spike needs to start a humor blog.  Nobody I know enjoys life more
than Spike.  I love humor but am not good at producing it.  We all know
Spike is. 'Earlobe dragging the ground'  will go with me to my grave. So
how about some support for more Spike postings?  I am serious!   bill w

On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 8:35 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] [Extropolis] ?Lust? and sexual violence
>
>
>
> >?A rarity.  Extremely uncommon.  You made me laugh out loud.  Good way
> to start the day.  bill w
>
>
>
>
>
> We all need more laughter in our lives.  Of all beasts, I know of no other
> species that does that, and just think about how much of a waste that is.
>
>
>
> Consider domestic dogs and cats: those two in particular because they are
> often in the house with humans.  Consider all the stupid crazy funny things
> we do when only they are around.  We humans know they won?t tell, so we let
> ourselves be ourselves with our dogs and cats.  No matter how silly are the
> comments we make to them, they never laugh.  The dog kinda tilts his head
> in that way that makes us laugh, with that puzzled look on his face, as if
> to say ?whaaaaat in the helllllll?? He never laughs out loud.
>
>
>
> The cat is even worse.  She pretends she doesn?t even notice, regardless
> of how absurd we act around them.  She never even smiles.  She?s all
> business: put the kibbles in the bowl, you two-legged monster, and we will
> get along just fine.  Never laughs at our silliness.
>
>
>
> Oh wait, never mind.  I just realized why the dog never says anything,
> even when he sees us pulling our earlobe.  Reason: we know what he does.
> He?s all, No problem sir, what plays in Vegas stays in Vegas.  I won?t tell
> if you won?t.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Wed Jun 30 16:41:55 2021
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 09:41:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] uncommon lols
In-Reply-To: <004a01d76db4$90487ed0$b0d97c70$@rainier66.com>
References: <004a01d76db4$90487ed0$b0d97c70$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <3AA86BCD-17DE-4541-BBF6-B2FF25124B42@gmail.com>

On Jun 30, 2021, at 6:35 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> We all need more laughter in our lives.  Of all beasts, I know of no other species that does that, and just think about how much of a waste that is.

See http://www.bioacoustics.info/article/play-vocalizations-and-human-laughter-comparative-review

Regards,

Dan
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From ben at zaiboc.net  Wed Jun 30 17:27:12 2021
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 18:27:12 +0100
Subject: [ExI] uncommon lols
In-Reply-To: <mailman.5.1625061259.529.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.5.1625061259.529.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <772bd0a7-b0e9-9cb3-d252-f4ff7e949476@zaiboc.net>

On 30/06/2021 14:54, Spike wrote:
> We all need more laughter in our lives.? Of all beasts, I know of no 
> other species that does that, and just think about how much of a waste 
> that is.

I dunno. I reckon there are beasts that laugh. Chimps seem to, and even 
vocalise in a similar way to humans. Certain birds, while they don't 
lol, definitely have fun. I swear that a pair of pigeons that frequent 
our back garden have a ball teasing our cats (they know the cats are 
lousy hunters and have no chance of sneaking up on them), and let the 
cats get so close, then casually flap up to the roof of a nearby cabin, 
then look down at the cats, laughing their beaks off.

Crows definitely have fun. I was cycling in the local park last summer 
and noticed a particular crow waiting for me by the side of the road, 
then taking off and racing me, a big crow grin on its face, then beating 
me and landing again, to wait for me to go past again. It was even 
looking at me sideways as it went past, as if it was saying "Beat you 
again!". I can think of no reason for it to keep doing this, except for 
sheer fun.

Oh, and some young mammals sqeak and squeal while they are playing. I'm 
sure that's laughter.

-- 
Ben Zaiboc

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Jun 30 17:44:29 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 12:44:29 -0500
Subject: [ExI] uncommon lols
In-Reply-To: <772bd0a7-b0e9-9cb3-d252-f4ff7e949476@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.5.1625061259.529.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <772bd0a7-b0e9-9cb3-d252-f4ff7e949476@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYBB-m2rG24TRWfr+PSqWFPiUtchD9kVuHwHhza3mq2nA@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Ben, I agree with all of that.  My favorite, and many others', is
otters - catch one fish, then play all day.  Of course they also look so
cute, floating supine eating their fish..

Maybe one day we will find out if a horse laugh really is a laugh.   bill w

On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 12:29 PM Ben via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On 30/06/2021 14:54, Spike wrote:
>
> We all need more laughter in our lives.  Of all beasts, I know of no other
> species that does that, and just think about how much of a waste that is.
>
>
> I dunno. I reckon there are beasts that laugh. Chimps seem to, and even
> vocalise in a similar way to humans. Certain birds, while they don't lol,
> definitely have fun. I swear that a pair of pigeons that frequent our back
> garden have a ball teasing our cats (they know the cats are lousy hunters
> and have no chance of sneaking up on them), and let the cats get so close,
> then casually flap up to the roof of a nearby cabin, then look down at the
> cats, laughing their beaks off.
>
> Crows definitely have fun. I was cycling in the local park last summer and
> noticed a particular crow waiting for me by the side of the road, then
> taking off and racing me, a big crow grin on its face, then beating me and
> landing again, to wait for me to go past again. It was even looking at me
> sideways as it went past, as if it was saying "Beat you again!". I can
> think of no reason for it to keep doing this, except for sheer fun.
>
> Oh, and some young mammals sqeak and squeal while they are playing. I'm
> sure that's laughter.
>
> --
> Ben Zaiboc
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Jun 30 17:51:59 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 12:51:59 -0500
Subject: [ExI] uncommon lols
In-Reply-To: <3AA86BCD-17DE-4541-BBF6-B2FF25124B42@gmail.com>
References: <004a01d76db4$90487ed0$b0d97c70$@rainier66.com>
 <3AA86BCD-17DE-4541-BBF6-B2FF25124B42@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZKyBgQAVVOwetHQ9FUUN=K3AsQKe8ZFrgvePNdpwEXKQ@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, of course, but what of their vocalizations are actually laughter?
 That would take brain studies.  bill w

On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 11:44 AM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Jun 30, 2021, at 6:35 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> We all need more laughter in our lives.  Of all beasts, I know of no other
> species that does that, and just think about how much of a waste that is.
>
>
> See
> http://www.bioacoustics.info/article/play-vocalizations-and-human-laughter-comparative-review
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Wed Jun 30 20:18:35 2021
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 13:18:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] uncommon lols
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZKyBgQAVVOwetHQ9FUUN=K3AsQKe8ZFrgvePNdpwEXKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZKyBgQAVVOwetHQ9FUUN=K3AsQKe8ZFrgvePNdpwEXKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <438DF4EE-9A2E-40C9-987F-C0525C81468F@gmail.com>

On Jun 30, 2021, at 10:53 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> Yes, of course, but what of their vocalizations are actually laughter?   That would take brain studies.  bill w

I don?t think anyone?s saying this is the last word, though it looks like good evidence at this point that laughter isn?t peculiarly human.

Also, brain studies would simply add more here ? presuming that the same neurological mechanisms underly laughter/play vocalizations in species that aren?t that closely related ? like those of rodents and of birds. (Yeah, I?d guess that since primates and rodents have similar behaviors here that would mean this stuff likely is more basal (as opposed to independently evolved in different clades), so maybe there?s some very basic neural stuff shared between them that?d be easy to spot. A loose analogy: I wouldn?t to say only bats fly because eagles, butterflies, and pterodactyls use different muscles and different neurology to move about in the air.)

Regards,

Dan

>> On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 11:44 AM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>> On Jun 30, 2021, at 6:35 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>> We all need more laughter in our lives.  Of all beasts, I know of no other species that does that, and just think about how much of a waste that is.
>>> 
>> 
>> See http://www.bioacoustics.info/article/play-vocalizations-and-human-laughter-comparative-review
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Dan
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Jun 30 20:44:51 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 13:44:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] uncommon lols
In-Reply-To: <438DF4EE-9A2E-40C9-987F-C0525C81468F@gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZKyBgQAVVOwetHQ9FUUN=K3AsQKe8ZFrgvePNdpwEXKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <438DF4EE-9A2E-40C9-987F-C0525C81468F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001c01d76df0$c6b1f910$5415eb30$@rainier66.com>

 

 

On Jun 30, 2021, at 6:35 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

>>?We all need more laughter in our lives.  Of all beasts, I know of no other species that does that, and just think about how much of a waste that is.

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat
?

 

>?I don?t think anyone?s saying this is the last word, though it looks like good evidence at this point that laughter isn?t peculiarly human.

 

?

 

Regards,

 

Dan

 

Human laughter takes on so many different forms, I can?t think of anything which would be analogous to it in nature.

 

Perhaps beasts really do have a form of laughter which we cannot detect.  This brings up a rather disturbing thought?

 

What if? our dogs and cats really are laughing at us.  We can?t see it, but inside, they have contemptuous gales of derisive laughter.  Dogs don?t really act as if they do, but cats? one can never really tell with those aloof clawey bastards.  They might be laughing at us.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Jun 30 22:23:28 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 17:23:28 -0500
Subject: [ExI] uncommon lols
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Spike, I have had dozens of cats since 1950.  The look I get from them when
I offer them something that they clearly communicate to me that they are
totally uninterested in, is priceless.  It is as if a snob had been offered
something terribly inferior, which might be true and not a metaphor.

Of course I don't know if a dog's behavior signals that they understand how
thankful they should be over the time, money, attention, love and so on
that we heap on them.  But if they do, it is not reflected in a cat's
behavior.  Thankful cat?  Oxymoron.

I guess that more of a cat's behavior is innate than a dog's.

Some people think cats are aliens.  It's not a bad guess. An alien's
behavior would be inconsistent and capricious to us, just like a cat's.
You pick them up to set them in your lap and they try to bite you.  Two
minutes later they jump on your lap and butt heads with your chin, treading
on your chest (making biscuits, my wife says), and purring with contentment
when petted.   What logically follows from all this is that all cat books
are wrong sometimes, right sometimes, and you don't know when.

The ignorant might think that all cats are alike.  False.  All cats are
different from one another, unlike those slavering dogs. (a gross
overgeneralization).

bill w

On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 3:47 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> On Jun 30, 2021, at 6:35 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> >>?We all need more laughter in our lives.  Of all beasts, I know of no
> other species that does that, and just think about how much of a waste that
> is.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat
> *?*
>
>
>
> >?I don?t think anyone?s saying this is the last word, though it looks
> like good evidence at this point that laughter isn?t peculiarly human.
>
>
>
> ?
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> Regards,
>
>
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> Dan
>
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>
> Human laughter takes on so many different forms, I can?t think of anything
> which would be analogous to it in nature.
>
>
>
> Perhaps beasts really do have a form of laughter which we cannot detect.
> This brings up a rather disturbing thought?
>
>
>
> What if? our dogs and cats really are laughing at us.  We can?t see it,
> but inside, they have contemptuous gales of derisive laughter.  Dogs don?t
> really act as if they do, but cats? one can never really tell with those
> aloof clawey bastards.  They might be laughing at us.
>
>
>
> spike
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> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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