From pharos at gmail.com Tue Mar 2 09:37:01 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 09:37:01 +0000 Subject: [ExI] US, Russia and China seeking AI controlled weapons Message-ID: It has always seemed obvious to me that the military would want AI controlled weaponry. If for no other reason than to defend against possible enemies developing them first. Quotes: Biden urged to back AI weapons to counter China and Russia threats Published 01 March 2021 The US and its allies should reject calls for a global ban on AI-powered autonomous weapons systems, according to an official report commissioned for the American President and Congress. It says that artificial intelligence will "compress decision time frames" and require military responses humans cannot make quickly enough alone. And it warns Russia and China would be unlikely to keep to any such treaty. --------------- I expect we can look forward to AI controlled drones cruising over every city and town watching for any laws being broken and disabling offenders to await collection by patrol vans. We'll feel really safe then! BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Mar 2 15:26:59 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 09:26:59 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Chalmers Message-ID: In my constant effort to keep my brain working, I am trying The Conscious Mind. "A natural phenomenon is reductively explainable in terms of some lower level properties if the property of instantiating the phenomenon is globally logically supervenient on the low level properties in question." "A phenomenon is reductively explainable simpliciter if the property of instantiating that phenomenon is globally logical supervenient on physical properties." Have I bit off more than I can chew? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gadersd at gmail.com Tue Mar 2 15:43:48 2021 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Hermes Trismegistus) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 10:43:48 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Chalmers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <93573F57-A050-4EE2-887D-D67FBE26F5D3@hxcore.ol> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Mar 2 15:51:33 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 07:51:33 -0800 Subject: [ExI] US, Russia and China seeking AI controlled weapons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sci-fi has of course been predicting this for years. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fa9lVwHHqg for instance. On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 1:40 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > It has always seemed obvious to me that the military would want AI > controlled weaponry. If for no other reason than to defend against > possible enemies developing them first. > > > Quotes: > Biden urged to back AI weapons to counter China and Russia threats > Published 01 March 2021 > > The US and its allies should reject calls for a global ban on > AI-powered autonomous weapons systems, according to an official report > commissioned for the American President and Congress. > It says that artificial intelligence will "compress decision time > frames" and require military responses humans cannot make quickly > enough alone. > And it warns Russia and China would be unlikely to keep to any such treaty. > --------------- > > I expect we can look forward to AI controlled drones cruising over every > city > and town watching for any laws being broken and disabling offenders to > await collection by patrol vans. We'll feel really safe then! > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Tue Mar 2 16:10:28 2021 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 09:10:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Chalmers In-Reply-To: <93573F57-A050-4EE2-887D-D67FBE26F5D3@hxcore.ol> References: <93573F57-A050-4EE2-887D-D67FBE26F5D3@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: Sheesh. Yes, Hermes, you nailed it with ?philosophers try to explain their theories in the most complicated way possible to obfuscate potential errors?. It?s so frustrating to spend years, trying to understand, and even canonize all that ?popular? consensus, only to find nothing there but ever more ?hard? problems and meaningless circular definitions. To me, there are problems with all theories that separate qualia (using separating terms like qualia ?supervene? on something) are problematic. By the way, we?ve recently put-up new versions of the first 5 chapters on our video. ?Consciousness: Not a Hard Problem, Just a Color Problem. ? Hopefully, that is something people can understand, and experimentalists can use to finally falsify all the ?crap in the gap? philosophies hiding in our ?qualia blindness? On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 8:44 AM Hermes Trismegistus via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > That?s the problem with philosophers. They like making up their own > terminology. It can be difficult to distinguish the gibberish from the > coherent. In this case Chalmers is trying to say that something is > reducible if the workings of the whole is explainable in terms of the parts. > > > > In my experience philosophers try to explain their theories in the most > complicated way possible to obfuscate potential errors. Politicians use the > same technique and seeing exactly where the error is can be difficult. I > suggest you read something more intellectually honest such as a physics or > mathematics book. > > > > *From: *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > > *Sent: *Tuesday, March 2, 2021 10:29 AM > *To: *extropolis at googlegroups.com; ExI chat list > > *Cc: *William Flynn Wallace > *Subject: *[ExI] Chalmers > > > > In my constant effort to keep my brain working, I am trying The Conscious > Mind. > > > > "A natural phenomenon is reductively explainable in terms of some lower > level properties if the property of instantiating the phenomenon is > globally logically supervenient on the low level properties in question." > "A phenomenon is reductively explainable simpliciter if the property of > instantiating that phenomenon is globally logical supervenient on physical > properties." > > > > Have I bit off more than I can chew? > > bill w > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Mar 2 16:26:16 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 10:26:16 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Chalmers In-Reply-To: References: <93573F57-A050-4EE2-887D-D67FBE26F5D3@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: Chalmers divides consciousness into two parts: psychological (like learning and memory), and phenomenal - the experience of it- being awake, I suppose. Is that customary? bill w On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 10:14 AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Sheesh. > > Yes, Hermes, you nailed it with ?philosophers try to explain their > theories in the most complicated way possible to obfuscate potential errors?. > It?s so frustrating to spend years, trying to understand, and even canonize > all that ?popular? consensus, only to find nothing there but ever more > ?hard? problems and meaningless circular definitions. To me, there are > problems with all theories that separate qualia (using separating terms > like qualia ?supervene? on something) are problematic. > > > > By the way, we?ve recently put-up new versions of the first 5 chapters on > our video. ?Consciousness: Not a Hard Problem, Just a Color Problem. > ? Hopefully, that is > something people can understand, and experimentalists can use to finally > falsify all the ?crap in the gap? philosophies hiding in our ?qualia > blindness? > > On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 8:44 AM Hermes Trismegistus via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> That?s the problem with philosophers. They like making up their own >> terminology. It can be difficult to distinguish the gibberish from the >> coherent. In this case Chalmers is trying to say that something is >> reducible if the workings of the whole is explainable in terms of the parts. >> >> >> >> In my experience philosophers try to explain their theories in the most >> complicated way possible to obfuscate potential errors. Politicians use the >> same technique and seeing exactly where the error is can be difficult. I >> suggest you read something more intellectually honest such as a physics or >> mathematics book. >> >> >> >> *From: *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >> >> *Sent: *Tuesday, March 2, 2021 10:29 AM >> *To: *extropolis at googlegroups.com; ExI chat list >> >> *Cc: *William Flynn Wallace >> *Subject: *[ExI] Chalmers >> >> >> >> In my constant effort to keep my brain working, I am trying The Conscious >> Mind. >> >> >> >> "A natural phenomenon is reductively explainable in terms of some lower >> level properties if the property of instantiating the phenomenon is >> globally logically supervenient on the low level properties in question." >> "A phenomenon is reductively explainable simpliciter if the property of >> instantiating that phenomenon is globally logical supervenient on physical >> properties." >> >> >> >> Have I bit off more than I can chew? >> >> bill w >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Tue Mar 2 16:52:45 2021 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 09:52:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Chalmers In-Reply-To: References: <93573F57-A050-4EE2-887D-D67FBE26F5D3@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: That almost makes sense. Learning, programming, and memory are mostly subconscious since there is no computational binding of that into consciousness. It all must be "recalled" into our consciousness (computationally bound) CPU, before we are consciously aware of it. So, given that, are you/they saying that consciousness (that which is computationally bound) is not "psychological"? On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 9:27 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Chalmers divides consciousness into two parts: psychological (like > learning and memory), and phenomenal - the experience of it- being awake, I > suppose. Is that customary? bill w > > On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 10:14 AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Sheesh. >> >> Yes, Hermes, you nailed it with ?philosophers try to explain their >> theories in the most complicated way possible to obfuscate potential errors?. >> It?s so frustrating to spend years, trying to understand, and even canonize >> all that ?popular? consensus, only to find nothing there but ever more >> ?hard? problems and meaningless circular definitions. To me, there are >> problems with all theories that separate qualia (using separating terms >> like qualia ?supervene? on something) are problematic. >> >> >> >> By the way, we?ve recently put-up new versions of the first 5 chapters on >> our video. ?Consciousness: Not a Hard Problem, Just a Color Problem. >> ? Hopefully, that is >> something people can understand, and experimentalists can use to finally >> falsify all the ?crap in the gap? philosophies hiding in our ?qualia >> blindness? >> >> On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 8:44 AM Hermes Trismegistus via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> That?s the problem with philosophers. They like making up their own >>> terminology. It can be difficult to distinguish the gibberish from the >>> coherent. In this case Chalmers is trying to say that something is >>> reducible if the workings of the whole is explainable in terms of the parts. >>> >>> >>> >>> In my experience philosophers try to explain their theories in the most >>> complicated way possible to obfuscate potential errors. Politicians use the >>> same technique and seeing exactly where the error is can be difficult. I >>> suggest you read something more intellectually honest such as a physics or >>> mathematics book. >>> >>> >>> >>> *From: *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >>> >>> *Sent: *Tuesday, March 2, 2021 10:29 AM >>> *To: *extropolis at googlegroups.com; ExI chat list >>> >>> *Cc: *William Flynn Wallace >>> *Subject: *[ExI] Chalmers >>> >>> >>> >>> In my constant effort to keep my brain working, I am trying The >>> Conscious Mind. >>> >>> >>> >>> "A natural phenomenon is reductively explainable in terms of some lower >>> level properties if the property of instantiating the phenomenon is >>> globally logically supervenient on the low level properties in question." >>> "A phenomenon is reductively explainable simpliciter if the property of >>> instantiating that phenomenon is globally logical supervenient on physical >>> properties." >>> >>> >>> >>> Have I bit off more than I can chew? >>> >>> bill w >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Mar 2 17:23:42 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 11:23:42 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Chalmers In-Reply-To: References: <93573F57-A050-4EE2-887D-D67FBE26F5D3@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: Gimme a break - I am just a short piece into the book. Also, I do not have any background in the subject of consciousness. I tried reading Dennett but gave up. I disagreed with him but cannot remember why. Mostly, in your post, I do not know what 'computationally bound' means. bill w On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 10:56 AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > That almost makes sense. > Learning, programming, and memory are mostly subconscious since there is > no computational binding of that into consciousness. > It all must be "recalled" into our consciousness (computationally bound) > CPU, before we are consciously aware of it. > So, given that, are you/they saying that consciousness (that which is > computationally bound) is not "psychological"? > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 9:27 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Chalmers divides consciousness into two parts: psychological (like >> learning and memory), and phenomenal - the experience of it- being awake, I >> suppose. Is that customary? bill w >> >> On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 10:14 AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Sheesh. >>> >>> Yes, Hermes, you nailed it with ?philosophers try to explain their >>> theories in the most complicated way possible to obfuscate potential errors?. >>> It?s so frustrating to spend years, trying to understand, and even canonize >>> all that ?popular? consensus, only to find nothing there but ever more >>> ?hard? problems and meaningless circular definitions. To me, there are >>> problems with all theories that separate qualia (using separating terms >>> like qualia ?supervene? on something) are problematic. >>> >>> >>> >>> By the way, we?ve recently put-up new versions of the first 5 chapters >>> on our video. ?Consciousness: Not a Hard Problem, Just a Color Problem. >>> ? Hopefully, that is >>> something people can understand, and experimentalists can use to finally >>> falsify all the ?crap in the gap? philosophies hiding in our ?qualia >>> blindness? >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 8:44 AM Hermes Trismegistus via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> That?s the problem with philosophers. They like making up their own >>>> terminology. It can be difficult to distinguish the gibberish from the >>>> coherent. In this case Chalmers is trying to say that something is >>>> reducible if the workings of the whole is explainable in terms of the parts. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> In my experience philosophers try to explain their theories in the most >>>> complicated way possible to obfuscate potential errors. Politicians use the >>>> same technique and seeing exactly where the error is can be difficult. I >>>> suggest you read something more intellectually honest such as a physics or >>>> mathematics book. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From: *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >>>> >>>> *Sent: *Tuesday, March 2, 2021 10:29 AM >>>> *To: *extropolis at googlegroups.com; ExI chat list >>>> >>>> *Cc: *William Flynn Wallace >>>> *Subject: *[ExI] Chalmers >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> In my constant effort to keep my brain working, I am trying The >>>> Conscious Mind. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> "A natural phenomenon is reductively explainable in terms of some lower >>>> level properties if the property of instantiating the phenomenon is >>>> globally logically supervenient on the low level properties in question." >>>> "A phenomenon is reductively explainable simpliciter if the property of >>>> instantiating that phenomenon is globally logical supervenient on physical >>>> properties." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Have I bit off more than I can chew? >>>> >>>> bill w >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Mar 2 17:40:40 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 11:40:40 -0600 Subject: [ExI] gem of a book on rights Message-ID: "The Know Your Bill of Rights Book" A great alternative to some 500 page history tome. This little, 90 pages, book taught me more than a few things, esp. about the Fifth Amendment. I think it belongs in the hands of every young person. Most of the histories of the rights include horrible, cruel, practices of the leaders of societies that are probably not taught in K-12 schools. They would be R or X-rated. Most of us don't know just how bad government leaders have been. Give it to a young person you know. https://smile.amazon.com/Know-Your-Bill-Rights-Book/dp/1938895223/ref=sr_1_1_sspa ? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Mar 2 22:36:24 2021 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 22:36:24 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Chalmers In-Reply-To: <93573F57-A050-4EE2-887D-D67FBE26F5D3@hxcore.ol> References: <93573F57-A050-4EE2-887D-D67FBE26F5D3@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 3:46 PM Hermes Trismegistus via extropy-chat wrote: > That?s the problem with philosophers. They like making up their own terminology. It can be > difficult to distinguish the gibberish from the coherent. In this case Chalmers is trying to say > that something is reducible if the workings of the whole is explainable in terms of the parts. > > In my experience philosophers try to explain their theories in the most complicated way > possible to obfuscate potential errors. Politicians use the same technique and seeing > exactly where the error is can be difficult. I suggest you read something more intellectually > honest such as a physics or mathematics book. That's the problem with overgeneralization and double standards. I find it hard to think of an area of discourse that does end up inventing terminology to make it easy for those involved to discuss their views and try to make progress. Engineering, mathematics, logic, history, anthropology, film criticism, etc. Can you think of one? Maybe you can, but this is hardly a vice -- if it is one at all -- that philosophers have a monopoly on. Often, too, there's two ways you can approach terminological problems. One is to use an existing term -- usually one that already carries an ordinary meaning or set of meanings -- and stipulate what you mean by it that is more precise or just plain different from ordinary usage. That runs the risk of outsiders (and even less perceptive insiders) misunderstanding the meaning. (An example of this is 'work' and 'power' in physics. These are words that came from ordinary usage and have a more precise meaning in physics. This can easily confuse the lay audience.) The other is, of course, to come up with new terms. This has the virtue of less confusion with a term already in wide use. It's easy to see how this can befuddle outsiders (and insiders). I don't think it's an act of intellectual dishonesty though. (Of course, it can cover intellectual dishonesty, but so can using an existing term in a different way: that can be used easily to bait and switch people in any field.) By the way, though Chalmer's book is a classic and often sold as an intro book on the subject, it seems to me not to be an intro... Not if you're looking for a work on philosophy of mind more along the lines of 'I'm new to philosophy, including philosophy of mind, and just want to get my feet wet.' I believe a book in that regard is Smith and Jones _The Philosophy of Mind: An Introduction_. (I haven't read John Heil's entry into the Routledge 'contemporary introduction' series on philosophy of mind, but the series is overall decent, so you could try that one.) There's also Jaegwon Kim's _Philosophy of Mind_, which has several editions. That's a bit more advanced, but still quite good. Also, there's the issue of how much you want to invest in a book. I mean invest in terms of effort to understand. If it's a struggle, then you can blame the author, but you can also blame yourself. It's not always the author's fault that someone has picked up a book that's really not for them. (I believe Chalmers was targeting an audience of fellow philosophers or at least philosophy undergrads and not the lay audience.) For instance, you think mathematics is clear and honest. I have dozens of mathematics books -- mostly graduate texts -- that are not books I read before bed or after a few beers. I certainly don't speed read them. For me, they're a struggle, but kind of a worthy one. (That said, I often give up the struggle after a few chapters. To be fair, some are more for reference.) Regards, Dan From brent.allsop at gmail.com Wed Mar 3 01:54:12 2021 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 18:54:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Chalmers In-Reply-To: References: <93573F57-A050-4EE2-887D-D67FBE26F5D3@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: Hi Bill, Sorry, this wasn't meant as a criticism of you. I was just trying to point out that I, Also, have a real problem with that kind of stuff, and that even after spending 10 minutes on it, and having studied this field for most of my life, I still have troubles understanding it. And that I agree with what Hermes was saying. If anyone can figure it out, and show any utility in such, maybe they can help me? On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 10:25 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Mostly, in your post, I do not know what 'computationally bound' means. > info.cgi/extropy-chat > > Good point. "Computational binding" is a new term. But we didn't just coin that needed term as a needed label for a new concept. We've canonized it, and building consensus around it in the RQT camp statement. So far, nobody has objected to that particular term. It is simply pointing out that the "binding problem " can be solved with "computation", like that done in a CPU when two registers are "bound" via an ALU computational system or something. While in the case of the term "eff" the ineffable, some do think there is a better term, so we're trying to measure for what is the best term for the most people, to communicate the best here . If a term achieves more consensus than 'eff' the ineffable, we will switch to that. Oh, and the name of the next chapter we are working on for our video is "Computational Binding". We expect to have that up in a month or so. Or if you can't wait, you can read, and maybe even help us polish the working draft of the chapter, in our working transcript for the video, here . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gadersd at gmail.com Wed Mar 3 02:37:16 2021 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Hermes Trismegistus) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 21:37:16 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Chalmers In-Reply-To: References: <93573F57-A050-4EE2-887D-D67FBE26F5D3@hxcore.ol>, Message-ID: <4AEA7225-1D29-4AB0-88E8-0E8B49ACC38E@hxcore.ol> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Wed Mar 3 03:18:59 2021 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 20:18:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Chalmers In-Reply-To: <4AEA7225-1D29-4AB0-88E8-0E8B49ACC38E@hxcore.ol> References: <93573F57-A050-4EE2-887D-D67FBE26F5D3@hxcore.ol> <4AEA7225-1D29-4AB0-88E8-0E8B49ACC38E@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: Hi Hermes, On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 7:38 PM Hermes Trismegistus via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > There is no fundamental issue with vague and abstract intuitive concepts. > Art relies and flourishes in such things. The problem is forcing arbitrary > structure onto these concepts such as philosophy is wont to do. Someone can > write a treatise on the true structure and meaning of a painting. But this > would be intellectually dishonest because a painting, much like identity > and mind, carries no fixed meaning or rules. Let art be art and laws be > laws. > I agreed with you above about the way philosophers seem to obfuscate things in complexity. But I disagree with you here. My prediction is that once we fully understand qualia, knowing things like which of all our descriptions of stuff in the brain is a description of redness, and things like the symmetry theory of valence, we will be able to predict, and simulate, with law like certainty, who likes what art, when, and why, and we will be able to objectively describe and demonstrably reproduce what it is like to experience all "art" for all people, in all its diverse phenomenal colorness -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Wed Mar 3 04:18:57 2021 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 23:18:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Chalmers In-Reply-To: References: <93573F57-A050-4EE2-887D-D67FBE26F5D3@hxcore.ol> <4AEA7225-1D29-4AB0-88E8-0E8B49ACC38E@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 2, 2021, 10:22 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I agreed with you above about the way philosophers seem to obfuscate > things in complexity. But I disagree with you here. My prediction is that > once we fully understand qualia, knowing things like which of all our > descriptions of stuff in the brain is a description of redness, and things > like the symmetry theory of valence, we will be able to predict, and > simulate, with law like certainty, who likes what art, when, and why, and > we will be able to objectively describe and demonstrably reproduce what it > is like to experience all "art" for all people, in all its diverse > phenomenal colorness > That sounds like the Tower of Babel I would knock it down myself rather than be trapped in what would surely be an evil cage where everyone (or even just me) is forced to "eff" this and "eff" that with law-like certainty... I can say I don't know. I am starting to believe that is the truest truth anyone can assert - everything else feels like selling a memeplex one thought at a time. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Wed Mar 3 06:13:14 2021 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 23:13:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Chalmers In-Reply-To: References: <93573F57-A050-4EE2-887D-D67FBE26F5D3@hxcore.ol> <4AEA7225-1D29-4AB0-88E8-0E8B49ACC38E@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: Hi Mike, On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 9:20 PM Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, Mar 2, 2021, 10:22 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I agreed with you above about the way philosophers seem to obfuscate >> things in complexity. But I disagree with you here. My prediction is that >> once we fully understand qualia, knowing things like which of all our >> descriptions of stuff in the brain is a description of redness, and things >> like the symmetry theory of valence, we will be able to predict, and >> simulate, with law like certainty, who likes what art, when, and why, and >> we will be able to objectively describe and demonstrably reproduce what it >> is like to experience all "art" for all people, in all its diverse >> phenomenal colorness >> > > That sounds like the Tower of Babel > Wow, it is surprising to hear such a religious thing on a list like this. Not that that is a bad thing, just surprising. I hope neither I, nor anyone else, makes you feel uncomfortable for supporting such a (I thought) rare view for this list. Not sure, exactly what you mean. If you are talking about the terrible state of things, after everyone's language was changed, so most could no longer communicate, I would dislike that, with you about not wanting that. I would knock it down myself rather than be trapped in what would surely be > an evil cage where everyone (or even just me) is forced to "eff" this and > "eff" that with law-like certainty... > Wait a minute. Who said anything about "forcing" anyone? I'm completely against any such forcing, and in fact, the entire reason we created Canonizer, is to have a place where people can go, without worry of being forcefully censored or canceled. Just saying it will be possible, for whoever WANTS to do it, and even then, with only the parts they WANT to do it with. Does it bother you that your left hemisphere of your brain is "forced" to "eff" the nature of all known conscious knowledge in your right hemisphere? Each hemisphere of your brain only has half of the "bubble world" diorama, which is your knowledge of the world. Maybe you'd just not like it, if your left hemisphere was engineered to be red/green inverted from your right hemisphere? That would be a bit confusing. I can say I don't know. I am starting to believe that is the truest truth > anyone can assert - everything else feels like selling a memeplex one > thought at a time. > One of my favorite Mormon Doctrines is that we progress and learn "line upon line, precept on precept ". To me, that is the quintessential extropian belief. but it sounds like you don't like such beliefs? I'm betting there is some phenomenal quality no human has ever experienced. Are you saying I shouldn't attempt to discover as many of those, and all other truths as best as I can? If we can eventually fully simulate a mere finite human (with only a few primary colors), that doesn't mean we will know, or have experienced, everything. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Wed Mar 3 07:57:57 2021 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 08:57:57 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The first science fiction novel by a Nobel Prize in Literature winner? Message-ID: The first science fiction novel by a Nobel Prize in Literature winner? https://www.newscientist.com/article/2269338-klara-and-the-sun-review-ishiguros-thought-provoking-future-for-ai/ From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Mar 3 15:46:57 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 09:46:57 -0600 Subject: [ExI] math comic Message-ID: https://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/2021/03/03 bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Wed Mar 3 16:27:45 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 08:27:45 -0800 Subject: [ExI] The first science fiction novel by a Nobel Prize in Literature winner? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0fff9759-3f43-1119-5bf3-0355fd4ad62e@pobox.com> On 2021-3-02 23:57, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote: > The first science fiction novel by a Nobel Prize in Literature winner? > https://www.newscientist.com/article/2269338-klara-and-the-sun-review-ishiguros-thought-provoking-future-for-ai/ Not counting whatever winners wrote before the Prize? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From giulio at gmail.com Wed Mar 3 17:29:00 2021 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 18:29:00 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The first science fiction novel by a Nobel Prize in Literature winner? In-Reply-To: <0fff9759-3f43-1119-5bf3-0355fd4ad62e@pobox.com> References: <0fff9759-3f43-1119-5bf3-0355fd4ad62e@pobox.com> Message-ID: On 2021. Mar 3., Wed at 18:17, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2021-3-02 23:57, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote: > > The first science fiction novel by a Nobel Prize in Literature winner? > > > https://www.newscientist.com/article/2269338-klara-and-the-sun-review-ishiguros-thought-provoking-future-for-ai/ > > Not counting whatever winners wrote before the Prize? Right, otherwise Doris Lessing is first (ht Dan on the other list). Anyone before Lessing? > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed Mar 3 20:06:48 2021 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 12:06:48 -0800 Subject: [ExI] SF books taught in college classes Message-ID: https://io9.gizmodo.com/11-science-fiction-books-that-are-regularly-taught-in-c-1716713814 This is from 2015. I wonder how much it would be updated. Anyhow, it looks like some of the usual suspects here. BNW and 1984 were taught in high school for me. Regards, Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mlatorra at gmail.com Wed Mar 3 22:05:06 2021 From: mlatorra at gmail.com (Michael LaTorra) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 15:05:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] SF books taught in college classes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Before my retirement, I taught a course in SF&F. I structured the course around weekly thematic topics, such as personhood, aliens, etc. Most weekly reading assignments included a chapter from a novel as well as one more short stories that fit the theme of the week. The class was very popular. Here is a list of the assigned books. A couple of the books are short story collections. I'm not listing here which stories from those collections were assigned. The individual stories listed below were included in a special ebook that was created for this course by a textbook publisher based on my story requests. The publisher handled copyright issues and other matters, which saved me a lot of time. LITERATURE OF SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY English 328 Reading list for course taught by Prof. Michael LaTorra NOVELS / STORY COLLECTIONS "The Player of Games" by Iain M. Banks "Accelerando" by Charles Stross "Small Gods" by Terry Pratchett "The Collected Stories of Vernor Vinge" "Borges: Collected Fictions" by Jorge Luis Borges SHORT STORIES (not from the STORY COLLECTIONS above) "The Perfect Man" by Lauren McLaughlin "Reasons to Be Cheerful" by Greg Egan "Learning to Be Me" by Greg Egan "Oceanic" by Greg Egan "?All You Zombies?" by Robert Heinlein "Blood Music" by Greg Bear "Guardian Angel" by Arthur C. Clarke "The Nine Billion Names of God" by Arthur C. Clarke "Light of Other Days" by Bob Shaw "The Last Question" by Isaac Asimov On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 1:11 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > https://io9.gizmodo.com/11-science-fiction-books-that-are-regularly-taught-in-c-1716713814 > > This is from 2015. I wonder how much it would be updated. Anyhow, it looks > like some of the usual suspects here. BNW and 1984 were taught in high > school for me. > > Regards, > > Dan > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Mar 3 22:26:40 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 16:26:40 -0600 Subject: [ExI] oddity - learn to walk? nah Message-ID: Walking is the only behavior that meets most of the specific criteria for an instinct (fixed action pattern) (only the sign stimulus could be said to be lacking): 1 - unlearned 2 - species specific (like baby ducks following Lorenz) 3 - highly stereotyped (this requirement keeps many so-called behaviors from being instincts - most human behaviors vary widely) 4 - found in all species members 5 - released by a sign stimulus 6 -complex - not just a reflex When the sinews and muscles are ready, the kid will walk- hard-wired. A beginning toddler does the best he can with muscles and sinews not fully ready for walking. I knew a person who did not walk at the usual time, but he crawled with a great deal of ability. When, as his mother related, another kid hit him and he could not catch him, he got up and ran. No practice at walking or running. Blind children walk at the same time as sighted children. Kids who ride their mothers' backs all day long walk at the same time as kids who play in the dirt all day. Learn to walk? Nah bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Mar 3 22:28:32 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 16:28:32 -0600 Subject: [ExI] SF books taught in college classes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you have not read 'The Light of Other Days' you are in for a treat - very interesting concept, which I will not reveal. bill w On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 4:08 PM Michael LaTorra via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Before my retirement, I taught a course in SF&F. I structured the course > around weekly thematic topics, such as personhood, aliens, etc. Most weekly > reading assignments included a chapter from a novel as well as one more > short stories that fit the theme of the week. The class was very popular. > > Here is a list of the assigned books. A couple of the books are short > story collections. I'm not listing here which stories from those > collections were assigned. The individual stories listed below were > included in a special ebook that was created for this course by a textbook > publisher based on my story requests. The publisher handled copyright > issues and other matters, which saved me a lot of time. > > LITERATURE OF SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY English 328 > > Reading list for course taught by Prof. Michael LaTorra > > > NOVELS / STORY COLLECTIONS > > "The Player of Games" by Iain M. Banks > > "Accelerando" by Charles Stross > > "Small Gods" by Terry Pratchett > > "The Collected Stories of Vernor Vinge" > > "Borges: Collected Fictions" by Jorge Luis Borges > > > SHORT STORIES (not from the STORY COLLECTIONS above) > > "The Perfect Man" by Lauren McLaughlin > > "Reasons to Be Cheerful" by Greg Egan > > "Learning to Be Me" by Greg Egan > > "Oceanic" by Greg Egan > > "?All You Zombies?" by Robert Heinlein > > "Blood Music" by Greg Bear > > "Guardian Angel" by Arthur C. Clarke > > "The Nine Billion Names of God" by Arthur C. Clarke > > "Light of Other Days" by Bob Shaw > > "The Last Question" by Isaac Asimov > > > On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 1:11 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> https://io9.gizmodo.com/11-science-fiction-books-that-are-regularly-taught-in-c-1716713814 >> >> This is from 2015. I wonder how much it would be updated. Anyhow, it >> looks like some of the usual suspects here. BNW and 1984 were taught in >> high school for me. >> >> Regards, >> >> Dan >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Mar 3 22:32:11 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 16:32:11 -0600 Subject: [ExI] correction Message-ID: The Light of Other Days, a novel, was written by Arthur C Clarke and STephen Baxter. I confused it with a short story by Bob Shaw, on the list sent out by LaTorra bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed Mar 3 22:39:27 2021 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 17:39:27 -0500 Subject: [ExI] oddity - learn to walk? nah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Very, very cool. I did not know this at all. SR Ballard > On Mar 3, 2021, at 5:29 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > Walking is the only behavior that meets most of the specific criteria for an instinct (fixed action pattern) (only the sign stimulus could be said to be lacking): > > 1 - unlearned > 2 - species specific (like baby ducks following Lorenz) > 3 - highly stereotyped (this requirement keeps many so-called behaviors from being instincts - most human behaviors vary widely) > 4 - found in all species members > 5 - released by a sign stimulus > 6 -complex - not just a reflex > > When the sinews and muscles are ready, the kid will walk- hard-wired. A beginning toddler does the best he can with muscles and sinews not fully ready for walking. I knew a person who did not walk at the usual time, but he crawled with a great deal of ability. When, as his mother related, another kid hit him and he could not catch him, he got up and ran. No practice at walking or running. > > Blind children walk at the same time as sighted children. Kids who ride their mothers' backs all day long walk at the same time as kids who play in the dirt all day. > > Learn to walk? Nah bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Mar 3 23:00:35 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 17:00:35 -0600 Subject: [ExI] oddity - learn to walk? nah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yeah cool. As far as I know, I am the only person to make this observation. Good to see you back! bill w On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 4:53 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Very, very cool. I did not know this at all. > > SR Ballard > > On Mar 3, 2021, at 5:29 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ? > Walking is the only behavior that meets most of the specific criteria for > an instinct (fixed action pattern) (only the sign stimulus could be said to > be lacking): > > 1 - unlearned > 2 - species specific (like baby ducks following Lorenz) > 3 - highly stereotyped (this requirement keeps many so-called behaviors > from being instincts - most human behaviors vary widely) > 4 - found in all species members > 5 - released by a sign stimulus > 6 -complex - not just a reflex > > When the sinews and muscles are ready, the kid will walk- hard-wired. A > beginning toddler does the best he can with muscles and sinews not fully > ready for walking. I knew a person who did not walk at the usual time, but > he crawled with a great deal of ability. When, as his mother related, > another kid hit him and he could not catch him, he got up and ran. No > practice at walking or running. > > Blind children walk at the same time as sighted children. Kids who ride > their mothers' backs all day long walk at the same time as kids who play in > the dirt all day. > > Learn to walk? Nah bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed Mar 3 23:02:19 2021 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 15:02:19 -0800 Subject: [ExI] SF books taught in college classes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <207AEB82-DD48-4FF3-B5E1-A91CD1C847B0@gmail.com> On Mar 3, 2021, at 2:05 PM, Michael LaTorra wrote: > Before my retirement, I taught a course in SF&F. I structured the course around weekly thematic topics, such as personhood, aliens, etc. Most weekly reading assignments included a chapter from a novel as well as one more short stories that fit the theme of the week. The class was very popular. > > Here is a list of the assigned books. A couple of the books are short story collections. I'm not listing here which stories from those collections were assigned. The individual stories listed below were included in a special ebook that was created for this course by a textbook publisher based on my story requests. The publisher handled copyright issues and other matters, which saved me a lot of time. > > LITERATURE OF SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY English 328 > > Reading list for course taught by Prof. Michael LaTorra > > > NOVELS / STORY COLLECTIONS > > "The Player of Games" by Iain M. Banks > > "Accelerando" by Charles Stross > > "Small Gods" by Terry Pratchett > > "The Collected Stories of Vernor Vinge" > > "Borges: Collected Fictions" by Jorge Luis Borges > > > SHORT STORIES (not from the STORY COLLECTIONS above) > > "The Perfect Man" by Lauren McLaughlin > > "Reasons to Be Cheerful" by Greg Egan > > "Learning to Be Me" by Greg Egan > > "Oceanic" by Greg Egan > > "?All You Zombies?" by Robert Heinlein > > "Blood Music" by Greg Bear > > "Guardian Angel" by Arthur C. Clarke > > "The Nine Billion Names of God" by Arthur C. Clarke > > "Light of Other Days" by Bob Shaw > > "The Last Question" by Isaac Asimov Thanks! I wanted to ask people here what works they?d design a course around, and there you go reading my mind. :) I?ve heard lectures by Gary K. Wolfe (almost typed ?Gene?;) on SF that divides them up thematically ? the alien, the city, the spaceship, etc. They were quite good. Regards, Dan From mlatorra at gmail.com Wed Mar 3 23:12:23 2021 From: mlatorra at gmail.com (Michael LaTorra) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 16:12:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] SF books taught in college classes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Many people -- and I count myself among them -- consider "Light of Other Days" to be among the most exquisite short stories in the genre. One of my students said it moved her to tears. On Wed, Mar 3, 2021, 3:38 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > If you have not read 'The Light of Other Days' you are in for a treat - > very interesting concept, which I will not reveal. bill w > > On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 4:08 PM Michael LaTorra via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Before my retirement, I taught a course in SF&F. I structured the course >> around weekly thematic topics, such as personhood, aliens, etc. Most weekly >> reading assignments included a chapter from a novel as well as one more >> short stories that fit the theme of the week. The class was very popular. >> >> Here is a list of the assigned books. A couple of the books are short >> story collections. I'm not listing here which stories from those >> collections were assigned. The individual stories listed below were >> included in a special ebook that was created for this course by a textbook >> publisher based on my story requests. The publisher handled copyright >> issues and other matters, which saved me a lot of time. >> >> LITERATURE OF SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY English 328 >> >> Reading list for course taught by Prof. Michael LaTorra >> >> >> NOVELS / STORY COLLECTIONS >> >> "The Player of Games" by Iain M. Banks >> >> "Accelerando" by Charles Stross >> >> "Small Gods" by Terry Pratchett >> >> "The Collected Stories of Vernor Vinge" >> >> "Borges: Collected Fictions" by Jorge Luis Borges >> >> >> SHORT STORIES (not from the STORY COLLECTIONS above) >> >> "The Perfect Man" by Lauren McLaughlin >> >> "Reasons to Be Cheerful" by Greg Egan >> >> "Learning to Be Me" by Greg Egan >> >> "Oceanic" by Greg Egan >> >> "?All You Zombies?" by Robert Heinlein >> >> "Blood Music" by Greg Bear >> >> "Guardian Angel" by Arthur C. Clarke >> >> "The Nine Billion Names of God" by Arthur C. Clarke >> >> "Light of Other Days" by Bob Shaw >> >> "The Last Question" by Isaac Asimov >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 1:11 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> https://io9.gizmodo.com/11-science-fiction-books-that-are-regularly-taught-in-c-1716713814 >>> >>> This is from 2015. I wonder how much it would be updated. Anyhow, it >>> looks like some of the usual suspects here. BNW and 1984 were taught in >>> high school for me. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Dan >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 00:15:49 2021 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 00:15:49 +0000 Subject: [ExI] oddity - learn to walk? nah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 11:03 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > Yeah cool. As far as I know, I am the only person to make this observation. > Good to see you back! bill w I believe others have made the observation... Still, since you came to it on your own, that has to count for something. You'd mentioned trying to keep your mind/brain active. And this seems a good example of it, no? By the way, here's something that might cast doubt on bipedalism being instinctual or innate -- but only a tiny bit of doubt IMO: https://slate.com/human-interest/2013/05/bipedalism-is-innate-but-also-learned-turkish-family-walks-on-four-legs.html Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 4 00:33:17 2021 From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 00:33:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] The first science fiction novel by a Nobel Prize in Literature winner? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <864601927.715223.1614817997620@mail.yahoo.com> Giulio Prisco asked: .Anyone before Lessing? Well, the Kipling Society claim at?http://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/rg_scifi.htm?that Rudyard Kipling, 1907 Nobel Laureate, had a big influence on SF and wrote several SF stories.? George Bernard Shaw, 1925 Nobel Laureate, wrote "Back to Methuselah (A metabiological pentateuch)" in 1918 to 1920. It's a series of plays on the theme of longevity which I have never got around to reading so I can't tell you how transhumanist they are. Bertrand Russell, famous philosopher and 1950 Nobel Laureate, wrote some fantasy and science fiction? - :??Satan in the Suburbs and Other Stories?(1953),?Nightmares of Eminent Persons and Other Stories?(1954) and?Fact and Fiction?(1961). All were republished in?The Collected Stories of Bertrand Russell?(1972).?Also, some of his philosophical writings contain elements of futurology. So there are a few. Tom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 07:28:02 2021 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 08:28:02 +0100 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?b?QmV0IG9uIHRoZSBzdGFyczog4oCYT3VtdWFtdWHigJlzIFdh?= =?utf-8?q?ger?= Message-ID: Bet on the stars: ?Oumuamua?s Wager Following Avi Loeb, I ?dare to wager that ?Oumuamua was a piece of advanced extraterrestrial technology.? I bet on the stars... https://turingchurch.net/bet-on-the-stars-oumuamuas-wager-1e0646d57ecd From pharos at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 08:25:59 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 08:25:59 +0000 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?b?QmV0IG9uIHRoZSBzdGFyczog4oCYT3VtdWFtdWHigJlzIFdh?= =?utf-8?q?ger?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Mar 2021 at 07:32, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote: > > Bet on the stars: ?Oumuamua?s Wager > > Following Avi Loeb, I ?dare to wager that ?Oumuamua was a piece of > advanced extraterrestrial technology.? I bet on the stars... > > https://turingchurch.net/bet-on-the-stars-oumuamuas-wager-1e0646d57ecd > _______________________________________________ Isn't the speed too slow for it to be advanced tech? Taking millions of years to travel between stars surely isn't advanced tech. If it had the ability to greatly change speed, why didn't it do a inspection tour of all the solar system planets? The trajectory suggests that it is more likely that it was just randomly flung into the Solar System and then out again. BillK From lostmyelectron+exi at protonmail.com Thu Mar 4 05:53:20 2021 From: lostmyelectron+exi at protonmail.com (Gabe Waggoner) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2021 05:53:20 +0000 Subject: [ExI] SF books taught in college classes Message-ID: > > Before my retirement, I taught a course in SF&F. I structured the course > > around weekly thematic topics, such as personhood, aliens, etc. Most weekly > > reading assignments included a chapter from a novel as well as one more > > short stories that fit the theme of the week. The class was very popular. > > Here is a list of the assigned books. A couple of the books are short > > story collections. I'm not listing here which stories from those > > collections were assigned. The individual stories listed below were > > included in a special ebook that was created for this course by a textbook > > publisher based on my story requests. The publisher handled copyright > > issues and other matters, which saved me a lot of time. > > LITERATURE OF SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY English 328 > > Reading list for course taught by Prof. Michael LaTorra > > NOVELS / STORY COLLECTIONS > > "The Player of Games" by Iain M. Banks > > "Accelerando" by Charles Stross > > "Small Gods" by Terry Pratchett > > "The Collected Stories of Vernor Vinge" > > "Borges: Collected Fictions" by Jorge Luis Borges > > SHORT STORIES (not from the STORY COLLECTIONS above) > > "The Perfect Man" by Lauren McLaughlin > > "Reasons to Be Cheerful" by Greg Egan > > "Learning to Be Me" by Greg Egan > > "Oceanic" by Greg Egan > > "?All You Zombies?" by Robert Heinlein > > "Blood Music" by Greg Bear > > "Guardian Angel" by Arthur C. Clarke > > "The Nine Billion Names of God" by Arthur C. Clarke > > "Light of Other Days" by Bob Shaw > > "The Last Question" by Isaac Asimov > > On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 1:11 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > https://io9.gizmodo.com/11-science-fiction-books-that-are-regularly-taught-in-c-1716713814 > > > This is from 2015. I wonder how much it would be updated. Anyhow, it > > > looks like some of the usual suspects here. BNW and 1984 were taught in > > > high school for me. > > > Regards, > > > Dan > -- > > The Light of Other Days, a novel, was written by Arthur C Clarke and > STephen Baxter. I confused it with a short story by Bob Shaw, on the list > sent out by LaTorra bill w > That was my one of my favorite courses in undergrad (1998). I've since read several of the ones mentioned here. I loved "The Nine Billion Names of God" (and pretty much anything by Clarke and coauthors: Space Odyssey series, Rama series, "The Songs of Distant Earth," "Against [and Beyond] the Fall of Night," etc.). I never realized "Light of Other Days" existed as a completely different story; I had known (and loved) only "The Light of Other Days" (damn my inability to italicize in plain text). I'll have to read the Shaw story now. I also love the entire Dune series (with the hit-or-miss prequels and interquels). Greg Bear is enjoyable. I adored Asimov's "The Last Question" (though haven't yet read "The Last Answer"). But my favorite book of all time, which that class introduced me to, is "A Canticle for Leibowitz," by Walter M. Miller Jr. My professor back then told me that the sequel, "Saint Leibowitz and the Wild Horse Woman," was less well regarded, so I've never read it (though I did recently buy it and will get to it eventually). Great lists of sci-fi works here. Sometimes the digest has something to make me overcome my crippling introversion and reply. Best to everyone, Gabe From spike at rainier66.com Thu Mar 4 14:47:46 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 06:47:46 -0800 Subject: [ExI] SF books taught in college classes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001501d71105$57c73260$07559720$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Gabe Waggoner via extropy-chat >...Great lists of sci-fi works here. Sometimes the digest has something to make me overcome my crippling introversion and reply. Best to everyone, Gabe _______________________________________________ Hi Gabe, On ExI, I search for topics which make me overcome my crippling extroversion and not reply. Your interesting comment caused me to fail to not reply. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 14:49:59 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 08:49:59 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Deutchland uber alles? Message-ID: Does anyone on these lists think that the Germans are a superior people? (I am not introducing either environmental or genetic causes here. Of course you can do that if appropriate.) bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Mar 4 15:08:26 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 07:08:26 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Deutchland uber alles? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001f01d71108$3a860070$af920150$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Deutchland uber alles? >?Does anyone on these lists think that the Germans are a superior people? >bill w In any contest of speaking German, the German people will win every time. They are some tough sons a bitches at that game. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 15:09:35 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 09:09:35 -0600 Subject: [ExI] space hurrican Message-ID: You probably have already seen images of it, but if not: https://newatlas.com/space/space-hurricane-plasma/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 15:58:39 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 09:58:39 -0600 Subject: [ExI] oddity - learn to walk? nah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I should not get any credit at all for saying that walking is innate. That is common. Take a look at a criterion for a fixed action pattern: Unlearned: not only not learned, but cannot be undone. For example, the washing of food by raccoons is instinctive. What happens if you give a raccoon food that dissolves in water? He takes it to the water and scrubs it, whereupon it disappears. He is getting punished for washing. Will he do it again? Yes, over and over he will wash. He cannot stop it and punishment does not affect it. So a fixed action pattern is a very special kind of innate behavior and humans have only one that comes close to fitting. Walking. For this I should get some credit. (I find the Slate article irrelevant to what I am saying.) bill w On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 6:19 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 11:03 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: > > Yeah cool. As far as I know, I am the only person to make this > observation. > > Good to see you back! bill w > > I believe others have made the observation... Still, since you came to > it on your own, that has to count for something. You'd mentioned > trying to keep your mind/brain active. And this seems a good example > of it, no? > > By the way, here's something that might cast doubt on bipedalism being > instinctual or innate -- but only a tiny bit of doubt IMO: > > > https://slate.com/human-interest/2013/05/bipedalism-is-innate-but-also-learned-turkish-family-walks-on-four-legs.html > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books via: > http://author.to/DanUst > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Thu Mar 4 16:22:02 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 08:22:02 -0800 Subject: [ExI] SF books taught in college classes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2021-3-03 21:53, Gabe Waggoner via extropy-chat wrote: > (damn my inability to italicize in plain text) That's why I use ?guillemets?. Before Unicode was ubiquitious, I sometimes used . -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 16:33:12 2021 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 16:33:12 +0000 Subject: [ExI] SF books taught in college classes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 4:24 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat wrote: > On 2021-3-03 21:53, Gabe Waggoner via extropy-chat wrote: > > (damn my inability to italicize in plain text) > > That's why I use ?guillemets?. > Before Unicode was ubiquitious, I sometimes used . I use _underscore_. Sidenote: There's a great book by David Crystal on the history of punctuation: _Making a Point_. Maybe Bill W has read it or might place it on his huge reading list. :) I should probably reread it since I fancy myself a writer. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 16:39:41 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 10:39:41 -0600 Subject: [ExI] SF books taught in college classes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would read a book on punctuation. It reminds me of an episode on Johnny Carson about a guy who made specific noises to indicate punctuation: for a period, he spit. For a comma, another sound, and so on. He first demonstrated each sound then read a passage and used each sound. Funny! Reminds me of the !Kung African language. bill w On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 10:36 AM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 4:24 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat > wrote: > > On 2021-3-03 21:53, Gabe Waggoner via extropy-chat wrote: > > > (damn my inability to italicize in plain text) > > > > That's why I use ?guillemets?. > > Before Unicode was ubiquitious, I sometimes used . > > I use _underscore_. > > Sidenote: There's a great book by David Crystal on the history of > punctuation: _Making a Point_. Maybe Bill W has read it or might place > it on his huge reading list. :) I should probably reread it since I > fancy myself a writer. > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books via: > http://author.to/DanUst > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 17:09:59 2021 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 09:09:59 -0800 Subject: [ExI] SF books taught in college classes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <23F62AE6-03F9-4778-9CAB-A5AB3A9F652A@gmail.com> On Mar 4, 2021, at 8:43 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > I would read a book on punctuation. It reminds me of an episode on Johnny Carson about a guy who made specific noises to indicate punctuation: for a period, he spit. For a comma, another sound, and so on. He first demonstrated each sound then read a passage and used each sound. Funny! Reminds me of the !Kung African language. bill w There are a bunch of click languages ? most in Africa (Khoisan family, I think) and a few outside (mainly in Australia, so probably going extinct if not already extinct). I seem to recall someone positing that click consonants are evolutionarily basal. In other words, that they?re among the first phonemes humans or human ancestors used. I?m not sure if this view holds sway in the field. Regarding the book, since it?s a history of punctuation that pulled me in more than, say, a usage book. Regards, Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Thu Mar 4 17:28:15 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 09:28:15 -0800 Subject: [ExI] SF books taught in college classes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2021-3-04 08:33, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: > There's a great book by David Crystal on the history of > punctuation:_Making a Point_. I have David Crystal's ?Cambridge Encyclopedia of Language?, a good overview of linguistics. (I've even heard a Real Linguist recommend it.) Also once saw a video in which he and his son (an actor) discussed the son's project: playing Shakespeare with reconstructed pronunciation. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From bronto at pobox.com Thu Mar 4 17:29:09 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 09:29:09 -0800 Subject: [ExI] SF books taught in college classes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0a8e0b11-0728-7298-6344-898d4b156bfc@pobox.com> On 2021-3-04 08:39, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > I would read a book on punctuation.? It reminds me of an episode on > Johnny Carson about a guy who made specific noises to indicate > punctuation: for a period, he spit.? For a comma, another sound, and so > on.? He first demonstrated each sound then read a passage and used each > sound.? Funny!? Reminds me of the !Kung African language.? ?bill w Was it Victor Borge? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From bronto at pobox.com Thu Mar 4 17:35:43 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 09:35:43 -0800 Subject: [ExI] SF books taught in college classes In-Reply-To: <23F62AE6-03F9-4778-9CAB-A5AB3A9F652A@gmail.com> References: <23F62AE6-03F9-4778-9CAB-A5AB3A9F652A@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2021-3-04 09:09, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: > There are a bunch of click languages ? most in Africa (Khoisan family, I > think) and a few outside (mainly in Australia, so probably going extinct > if not already extinct). I seem to recall someone positing that click > consonants are evolutionarily basal. In other words, that they?re among > the first phonemes humans or human ancestors used. I?m not sure if this > view holds sway in the field. Hm. Their speakers are extreme outliers on the great family tree. So humanity split early on into click-keepers, who settled in southern Africa, and click-droppers, who spread throughout the world? (Not counting some neighboring Bantu languages that also use clicks, like Xhosa. Perhaps their speakers are descended from clickers who were absorbed by the Bantu expansion.) The Australian click language is a ceremonial or "taboo" language, used in special contexts and considered by linguists to be artificial, a bit like pig latin. (Attach "I've read somewhere" to every statement of fact here.) -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Thu Mar 4 17:40:12 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 09:40:12 -0800 Subject: [ExI] SF books taught in college classes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005201d7111d$6e705ba0$4b5112e0$@rainier66.com> Subject: Re: [ExI] SF books taught in college classes On 2021-3-04 08:33, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: > There's a great book by David Crystal on the history of > punctuation:_Making a Point_. ... _______________________________________________ I thought of a way we could use click language today (after a fashion.) A prole could communicate anything she wanted with knowing how to make only one click sound (or any other sound.) Hint: many scouts know how to do this. Answer: click out Morse code. It is far more efficient if one can make two sounds, but it can be done with only one, with practice. spike From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 17:58:42 2021 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 09:58:42 -0800 Subject: [ExI] SF books taught in college classes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1DB4DB8C-E332-4B59-924A-D647F0D9060E@gmail.com> On Mar 4, 2021, at 9:45 AM, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat wrote: > ?On 2021-3-04 09:09, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: >> There are a bunch of click languages ? most in Africa (Khoisan family, I think) and a few outside (mainly in Australia, so probably going extinct if not already extinct). I seem to recall someone positing that click consonants are evolutionarily basal. In other words, that they?re among the first phonemes humans or human ancestors used. I?m not sure if this view holds sway in the field. > > Hm. Their speakers are extreme outliers on the great family tree. So humanity split early on into click-keepers, who settled in southern Africa, and click-droppers, who spread throughout the world? > > (Not counting some neighboring Bantu languages that also use clicks, like Xhosa. Perhaps their speakers are descended from clickers who were absorbed by the Bantu expansion.) > > The Australian click language is a ceremonial or "taboo" language, used in special contexts and considered by linguists to be artificial, a bit like pig latin. > > (Attach "I've read somewhere" to every statement of fact here.) That?s about the size of it. A problem I see is it click consonants are basal, why don?t they arise again and again? Why would they drop away save for a few outliers? My non-expert view is just that click consonants are one of a huge menu of phonological options. I?d go for the most widely used (among language families) is likely basal, but that?s just me playing cladist here. As for your parenthetic comment, I would include stuff I heard somewhere. A lot of linguistics stuff I?ve heard. I listen to lectures on it and also used to be in contact with a linguistics professor. Regards, Dan From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 18:06:18 2021 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 10:06:18 -0800 Subject: [ExI] SF books taught in college classes In-Reply-To: <005201d7111d$6e705ba0$4b5112e0$@rainier66.com> References: <005201d7111d$6e705ba0$4b5112e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <04CED858-0F34-4C7C-8C51-A994C9F81A23@gmail.com> On Mar 4, 2021, at 9:53 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > I thought of a way we could use click language today (after a fashion.) A prole could communicate anything she wanted with knowing how to make only one click sound (or any other sound.) > > Hint: many scouts know how to do this. > > Answer: click out Morse code. It is far more efficient if one can make two sounds, but it can be done with only one, with practice. I believe the Khoisan languages have more than one click consonant (I believe it?s two, but I forget). I?ve heard folks in combat using clicks for communication at night, etc. with metal clickers. Regards, Dan From spike at rainier66.com Thu Mar 4 18:09:20 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 10:09:20 -0800 Subject: [ExI] SF books taught in college classes In-Reply-To: References: <23F62AE6-03F9-4778-9CAB-A5AB3A9F652A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <005c01d71121$80912db0$81b38910$@rainier66.com> On 2021-3-04 09:09, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: > There are a bunch of click languages ? most in Africa (Khoisan family, > I think) and a few outside (mainly in Australia, so probably going > extinct if not already extinct)... This seems so tragic. But no worries, I have a plan. Think of western-style advertising: all those words, yaaaaakity yak and blaaaa bla blaaaa, words words words, nothing at all in click languages. No Problem. We sneak in there, make a bunch of recordings of the click languages. Then we create an attractive robot and have her make the sounds we recorded. Since male and female would click in the same pitch range, they fall for it bigtime. The men would come, buy our stuff, a wide-open market would be no longer tragically under-exploited, we make a buttload. . We could do it all with an attractive robot. Call her Click Bait. spike From spike at rainier66.com Thu Mar 4 18:19:07 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 10:19:07 -0800 Subject: [ExI] SF books taught in college classes In-Reply-To: <005c01d71121$80912db0$81b38910$@rainier66.com> References: <23F62AE6-03F9-4778-9CAB-A5AB3A9F652A@gmail.com> <005c01d71121$80912db0$81b38910$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006101d71122$de349ff0$9a9ddfd0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: spike at rainier66.com >...a wide-open market would be no longer tragically under-exploited, we make a buttload. We could do it all with an attractive robot. Call her Click Bait. Spike If that works, we could make a second attractive robot which is male but is dressed in female attire. Call him Click in Drag. spike From bronto at pobox.com Thu Mar 4 18:38:53 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 10:38:53 -0800 Subject: [ExI] SF books taught in college classes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3096ed95-0d89-7985-435b-c929cbf575b3@pobox.com> On 2021-3-03 21:53, Gabe Waggoner via extropy-chat wrote: > But my favorite book of all time, which that class introduced me to, > is "A Canticle for Leibowitz," by Walter M. Miller Jr. My professor > back then told me that the sequel, "Saint Leibowitz and the Wild > Horse Woman," was less well regarded, so I've never read it (though I > did recently buy it and will get to it eventually). The first time I read ?Leibowitz?, I think I was too young for it. Do I remember right that the sequel was published after the author's suicide? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 18:41:14 2021 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 10:41:14 -0800 Subject: [ExI] SF books taught in college classes In-Reply-To: <006101d71122$de349ff0$9a9ddfd0$@rainier66.com> References: <006101d71122$de349ff0$9a9ddfd0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <30EA4150-2602-4A98-BFAE-86E1B4DE595E@gmail.com> On Mar 4, 2021, at 10:32 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: spike at rainier66.com > >> ...a wide-open market would be no longer tragically under-exploited, we make a buttload. We could do it all with an attractive robot. Call her Click Bait. Spike > > If that works, we could make a second attractive robot which is male but is dressed in female attire. Call him Click in Drag. > > spike I notice with both your examples, you?re presuming no one would be attracted to the male robot dressed as a conventional man. In other words, you seem mired to a man-centered view of attraction. (I reckon this goes along with the view many seem to hold that women don?t watch porn, including gay male porn.) Regards, Dan From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 18:43:41 2021 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 10:43:41 -0800 Subject: [ExI] SF books taught in college classes In-Reply-To: <3096ed95-0d89-7985-435b-c929cbf575b3@pobox.com> References: <3096ed95-0d89-7985-435b-c929cbf575b3@pobox.com> Message-ID: <1FEAA2EF-D6E7-4FC2-A0A0-2529741CA561@gmail.com> On Mar 4, 2021, at 10:41 AM, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat wrote: > ?On 2021-3-03 21:53, Gabe Waggoner via extropy-chat wrote: >> But my favorite book of all time, which that class introduced me to, >> is "A Canticle for Leibowitz," by Walter M. Miller Jr. My professor >> back then told me that the sequel, "Saint Leibowitz and the Wild >> Horse Woman," was less well regarded, so I've never read it (though I >> did recently buy it and will get to it eventually). > > The first time I read ?Leibowitz?, I think I was too young for it. > > Do I remember right that the sequel was published after the author's suicide? I?ve never read it (the first book; didn?t know there was a sequel), though it sits on my shelves fathering dust ? as it?s done now for years. The usual excuse applies. Regards, Dan From lostmyelectron+exi at protonmail.com Thu Mar 4 19:06:14 2021 From: lostmyelectron+exi at protonmail.com (Gabe Waggoner) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2021 19:06:14 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Punctuation (was SF books taught in college classes) Message-ID: On 2021-3-03 21:53, Gabe Waggoner via extropy-chat wrote: > (damn my inability to italicize in plain text) That's why I use ?guillemets?. Before Unicode was ubiquitious, I sometimes used . -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org ------------------------------ On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 4:24 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat wrote: > On 2021-3-03 21:53, Gabe Waggoner via extropy-chat wrote: > > (damn my inability to italicize in plain text) > > That's why I use ?guillemets?. > Before Unicode was ubiquitious, I sometimes used . I use _underscore_. Sidenote: There's a great book by David Crystal on the history of punctuation: _Making a Point_. Maybe Bill W has read it or might place it on his huge reading list. :) I should probably reread it since I fancy myself a writer. Regards, Dan --- Yes, indeed, all good alternatives. Many thanks, gents. I resorted to using the italics-impaired AP style and stuck to quotes for all titles, though that has always felt wrong to me in this age of digital publishing. Eh, after so many years editing copy, I'm bound to forever be dissatisfied. Three more good books on punctuation (for which I'll forgo title punctuation for the sake of preserving what remains of my sanity): The Chicago Guide to Grammar, Punctuation, and Spelling (Garner, 2016) The Best Punctuation Book, Period (Casagrande, 2014) Punctuate It Right! (Shaw, 1963 [dated, but still useful]) Gabe -- Robert Gabriel (Gabe) Waggoner, MS, ELS Science Writer?Editor 7318 Edmonston Rd. College Park, MD 20740-3018 www.nasw.org/users/rgwaggoner/ From spike at rainier66.com Thu Mar 4 19:35:42 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 11:35:42 -0800 Subject: [ExI] SF books taught in college classes In-Reply-To: <30EA4150-2602-4A98-BFAE-86E1B4DE595E@gmail.com> References: <006101d71122$de349ff0$9a9ddfd0$@rainier66.com> <30EA4150-2602-4A98-BFAE-86E1B4DE595E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <006901d7112d$90f56200$b2e02600$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dan > > If that works, we could make a second attractive robot which is male but is dressed in female attire. Call him Click in Drag. > > spike >...I notice with both your examples, you?re presuming no one would be attracted to the male robot dressed as a conventional man. In other words, you seem mired to a man-centered view of attraction. (I reckon this goes along with the view many seem to hold that women don?t watch porn, including gay male porn.) Regards, Dan _______________________________________________ Dan why is that? I have never understood it at all: why is there that asymmetry? I get it: we men are simple beasts. We really are: women have no trouble figuring us out. We are so easy to turn on. Any time you hear any man say 'my wife doesn't understand me' we know trying to hit on the attractive woman he is saying it to. He is lying. But If he says 'I don't understand my wife' we know he is telling the truth. Reason: our emotional software is simple. Theirs is complicated. We aren't emotionally smart enough is the real problem. Even we emotionally simple men get it. Regarding the visual attraction to men vs women: oh that one is so easy. Just go into any porno shop and open your eyes. Or any porno rack at the liquor store. What few magazines they bother carrying are aimed at men. There really is an asymmetry there. The discipline of marketing gets it, for in marketing, being fair and inclusive doesn't matter. Selling the product matters. Even if I didn't know about that, I can still only write from the perspective of straight male. I empathize with others as best I can, I can be fair, I can be inclusive, but at some point it is OK to just admit I can't really see the world from the perspective of any other orientation or gender. Eh, that's the way I am. At some point, I just hafta accept me and move on. spike From gadersd at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 19:44:42 2021 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Cody Cox) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 14:44:42 -0500 Subject: [ExI] math comic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2B174A17-A353-4011-BD90-927CD3E85D5B@hxcore.ol> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gadersd at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 19:49:32 2021 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Cody Cox) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 14:49:32 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Deutchland uber alles? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16E55FE1-0F8C-4461-BFB7-EA713A90F966@hxcore.ol> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 19:56:22 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 11:56:22 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Punctuation (was SF books taught in college classes) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > > > (damn my inability to italicize in plain text) > > > > That's why I use ?guillemets?. > > Before Unicode was ubiquitious, I sometimes used . > > I use _underscore_. > I, too, use _underscores_, or sometimes *asterisks*. In most of the online places I go that do not support italics, those seem to be the most commonly used emphasis marks. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Thu Mar 4 21:31:50 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 13:31:50 -0800 Subject: [ExI] clickety clack, was: SF books taught in college classes In-Reply-To: <04CED858-0F34-4C7C-8C51-A994C9F81A23@gmail.com> References: <005201d7111d$6e705ba0$4b5112e0$@rainier66.com> <04CED858-0F34-4C7C-8C51-A994C9F81A23@gmail.com> Message-ID: Ah, I see I never sent the post that I started to write before looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Click_consonant On 2021-3-04 10:06, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: > I believe the Khoisan languages have more than one click consonant > (I believe it?s two, but I forget). I think Xhosa has three, written ?c?, ?q?, ?x?. Each can be voiced and/or nasalized, written ?(n)(g)c?, ?(n)(g)q?, ?(n)(g)x?. In the International Phonetic Alphabet they were formerly written with inverted letters (??? was one) but these were later replaced with characters that look like punctuation :( > I?ve heard folks in combat using clicks for communication at night, > etc. with metal clickers. So they're not only for training dogs? (How does that work anyway?) -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From bronto at pobox.com Thu Mar 4 21:59:43 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 13:59:43 -0800 Subject: [ExI] SF books taught in college classes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1fdb3e84-ef98-3904-820e-09326446b214@pobox.com> On 2021-3-03 12:06, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: > BNW and 1984 were taught in high school for me. I (grad 1976) had ?Animal Farm?, ?Lord of the Flies?, and some brief excerpts of ?Brave New World?. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 22:09:02 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 16:09:02 -0600 Subject: [ExI] heart report - FYI; book review Message-ID: ejection rate last summer = 32 (below 40 heart failure). Rate yesterday = 45 (40-50 borderline. Normal 50-70. So, an excellent result - maybe Entresto and statins really work. Looks as though I'll be around awhile. Book - The Humans; Matt Haig - very funny in places; good satire; a man solves the Riemann hypothesis and aliens are worried, so one comes down, kills the mathematician and inhabits his body to destroy any evidence, and learn about humans. Definitely worth reading 4.5/5 bill w bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Mar 5 13:51:58 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 05:51:58 -0800 Subject: [ExI] dr suess Message-ID: <001c01d711c6$b674be60$235e3b20$@rainier66.com> Perhaps you have heard that Dr. Seuss is the next one in the crosshairs of cancel culture. Personal insight on that: in 2014 our local superintendent was going around to the elementary schools for Dr. Seuss day, doing readings and such. He chose "If I Ran the Zoo." In that book, he encountered the comment ".as helpers who all wear their eyes at a slant." Oops. The superintendent wasn't aware that was in there, nor were we. Most of the students in that school are Asian. The Superintendent = Cary Matsuoka. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 5 14:00:17 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 08:00:17 -0600 Subject: [ExI] dr suess In-Reply-To: <001c01d711c6$b674be60$235e3b20$@rainier66.com> References: <001c01d711c6$b674be60$235e3b20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Do the Japanese around you use elision in pronouncing their names? Or do they pronounce them like we do, for instance in Matsuoka we would pronounce it with the emphasis on the o. ? bill w On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 7:55 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Perhaps you have heard that Dr. Seuss is the next one in the crosshairs of > cancel culture. Personal insight on that: in 2014 our local superintendent > was going around to the elementary schools for Dr. Seuss day, doing > readings and such. He chose ?If I Ran the Zoo.? In that book, he > encountered the comment ??as helpers who all wear their eyes at a slant?? > > > > Oops. > > > > The superintendent wasn?t aware that was in there, nor were we. Most of > the students in that school are Asian. The Superintendent = Cary Matsuoka. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Mar 5 14:12:36 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 06:12:36 -0800 Subject: [ExI] dr suess In-Reply-To: References: <001c01d711c6$b674be60$235e3b20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002a01d711c9$9827e8d0$c877ba70$@rainier66.com> ?.> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] dr suess >?Do the Japanese around you use elision in pronouncing their names? Or do they pronounce them like we do, for instance in Matsuoka we would pronounce it with the emphasis on the o. ? bill w BillW I have heard various pronunciations, but my dataset is scant: there are not many Japanese around here. This area has a lot of Chinese and Vietnamese. These groups don?t get along well with Japanese. There is a Japantown in San Jose still, and it is a fun place to visit: great sushi down there. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 5 14:21:15 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 08:21:15 -0600 Subject: [ExI] dr suess In-Reply-To: <002a01d711c9$9827e8d0$c877ba70$@rainier66.com> References: <001c01d711c6$b674be60$235e3b20$@rainier66.com> <002a01d711c9$9827e8d0$c877ba70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Let's see - sushi - isn't that the raw fish that you have to put hot mustard on for it to have any taste? I eat half-sushi - I undercook all my fish (a la Julia Child) - till it flakes is overcooked. Which way is the discrimination, from Japanese to Chinese and Vietnamese or vice versa? I know the Japanese have very high opinions of themselves - warranted mostly, I think. Probably bias goes both ways. the Japanese have not been kind to the Chinese historically. bill w On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 8:15 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?.*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] dr suess > > > > >?Do the Japanese around you use elision in pronouncing their names? Or > do they pronounce them like we do, for instance in Matsuoka we would > pronounce it with the emphasis on the o. ? bill w > > > > BillW I have heard various pronunciations, but my dataset is scant: there > are not many Japanese around here. This area has a lot of Chinese and > Vietnamese. These groups don?t get along well with Japanese. > > > > There is a Japantown in San Jose still, and it is a fun place to visit: > great sushi down there. > > > > spike > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Mar 5 14:38:46 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 06:38:46 -0800 Subject: [ExI] vaccinations vs new cases Message-ID: <001c01d711cd$40873690$c195a3b0$@rainier66.com> Israel leads the immunization effort with about 100 vaccinations per 100 (so at least half the Israelis are immunized now.) But their new case rate is worse than most of the rest of the world: In the USA, we are below a quarter the new case rate compared to the peak in the first week of January, but Israel is at about 40% of its peak and it isn't dropping in the last coupla. I don't know what to make of it. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 36502 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17580 bytes Desc: not available URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 5 14:45:39 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 08:45:39 -0600 Subject: [ExI] vaccinations vs new cases In-Reply-To: <001c01d711cd$40873690$c195a3b0$@rainier66.com> References: <001c01d711cd$40873690$c195a3b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: If the ultraorthodox doesn't get vaccinated, that could create a bimodal distribution. bill w On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 8:42 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Israel leads the immunization effort with about 100 vaccinations per 100 > (so at least half the Israelis are immunized now.) > > > > > > > > > > But their new case rate is worse than most of the rest of the world: > > > > > > > > In the USA, we are below a quarter the new case rate compared to the peak > in the first week of January, but Israel is at about 40% of its peak and it > isn?t dropping in the last coupla. > > > > I don?t know what to make of it. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 36502 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17580 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Mar 5 15:23:06 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 07:23:06 -0800 Subject: [ExI] vaccinations vs new cases In-Reply-To: References: <001c01d711cd$40873690$c195a3b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003d01d711d3$71a96ee0$54fc4ca0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] vaccinations vs new cases >?If the ultraorthodox doesn't get vaccinated, that could create a bimodal distribution. bill w Ja. But there aren?t enough of them to account for this. Wiki suggests 8% of the Israeli population identifies as ultras. If that accounted for this signal, the new case rate in those communities would need to be huge. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Mar 5 15:42:04 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 07:42:04 -0800 Subject: [ExI] dr suess In-Reply-To: References: <001c01d711c6$b674be60$235e3b20$@rainier66.com> <002a01d711c9$9827e8d0$c877ba70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006501d711d6$17e47280$47ad5780$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Friday, March 5, 2021 6:21 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: Re: [ExI] dr suess >?Let's see - sushi - isn't that the raw fish that you have to put hot mustard on for it to have any taste? Taste harder. Sushi has a flavor, but you need to reach out for it a bit. It is subtle. If you blast it with wasabi, there is no point in paying all that money. >? Which way is the discrimination, from Japanese to Chinese and Vietnamese or vice versa? Hard to say BillW. There are so many subtleties in how cultures interact, and we all filter everything thru our own cultural viewpoints. It is clear enough to me that China and Vietnam are still fighting the second world war. There is an important subtlety most westerners don?t get (but I do because I had a lot of personal contact with Japantown because of a friend and colleague from work who grew up there and was there when his family was sent to an internment camp.) Before the US involvement in the war, the citizens of Japantown were not afraid of the Americans, they were afraid of the Chinese gangs. The Japanese young people knew to stay right in their own neighborhood down there, where the concentration of Japanese was high enough they were relatively safe. Outside that area, they were vulnerable to Chinese gangs which were common in San Jose. When the word came that they would be evacuated to internment camps, there was mixed opinion on what was going to happen. Some thought they were going to be exterminated, some thought they were being protected from Chinese gangs, everything in between. When my friend?s family returned to their home in late 1945, nothing had been touched, everything was exactly as they left it. The San Jose cops let the Chinese gangs know if they (or anyone) went into Japantown, things would go very badly for them. They stayed out. The Japanese returned after nearly 4 years and resumed their lives. My colleague was then in grade 6. He finished high school right there, went to San Jose State U, took an engineering degree and ended up an engineering manager at Lockheed. His 11 siblings did well. One of them took the leadership of the Buddhist temple where I volunteered as for the team who prepared marugame udon for the crowds at the annual Obon festival. His son took over leadership and runs that place to this day. But I digress. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Mar 5 15:53:06 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 07:53:06 -0800 Subject: [ExI] dr suess In-Reply-To: References: <001c01d711c6$b674be60$235e3b20$@rainier66.com> <002a01d711c9$9827e8d0$c877ba70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007401d711d7$a2775790$e76606b0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] dr suess >? the Japanese have very high opinions of themselves - warranted mostly, I think? Interesting observation, one which the evolutionary psychology crowd will likely study. Genetically the Chinese, Vietnamese and Japanese are similar enough that we can mostly dismiss the notion that genetic differences explain the differences in their people. We are left with a starting assumption that culture must explain the differences. Japan had a lot of contact with the rest of the world and a lot of cultural interchange. China was more isolated. I don?t know if there is more to it than that. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 5 16:26:43 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 10:26:43 -0600 Subject: [ExI] vaccinations vs new cases In-Reply-To: <003d01d711d3$71a96ee0$54fc4ca0$@rainier66.com> References: <001c01d711cd$40873690$c195a3b0$@rainier66.com> <003d01d711d3$71a96ee0$54fc4ca0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: from the new york times: The coronavirus is devastating Israel?s ultra-Orthodox communities. They represent 12.6 percent of the population, but 28 percent of infections. On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 9:26 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] vaccinations vs new cases > > > > >?If the ultraorthodox doesn't get vaccinated, that could create a > bimodal distribution. bill w > > > > Ja. But there aren?t enough of them to account for this. Wiki suggests > 8% of the Israeli population identifies as ultras. If that accounted for > this signal, the new case rate in those communities would need to be huge. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Mar 5 16:44:26 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 08:44:26 -0800 Subject: [ExI] vaccinations vs new cases In-Reply-To: References: <001c01d711cd$40873690$c195a3b0$@rainier66.com> <003d01d711d3$71a96ee0$54fc4ca0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00b801d711de$ce3ac950$6ab05bf0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] vaccinations vs new cases from the new york times: The coronavirus is devastating Israel?s ultra-Orthodox communities. They represent 12.6 percent of the population, but 28 percent of infections. On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 9:26 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: Even taking that into account and assuming the ultra orthodox uniformly refuse vaccination, that still doesn?t account for this signal. If we make a simplified model and assume no vaccinations among ultras, then we have at least 56% of the not-ultras who have had two doses of the vaccine (this is as pessimistic an assumption as possible, for in reality more than 56% have at least one dose.) If at least 56% of the 87% of Israelis have 90% to 95% immunity, their new case rate should be lower than this, a lot lower. 72% of the new infections are in the not-ultra Israeli population. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Fri Mar 5 20:17:30 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 20:17:30 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Deutchland uber alles? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6e675e06-3f90-e14b-8e76-7fcbf0300e84@zaiboc.net> billw asked: > Does anyone on these lists think that the Germans are a superior people? > Does anyone think that the Germans are 'a people'?? Superior to whom, or what? And in which domain? -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Fri Mar 5 20:21:11 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 20:21:11 +0000 Subject: [ExI] SF books taught in college classes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4e5e6677-a31b-c0f7-8eb4-09bb31b98ba3@zaiboc.net> On 04/03/2021 18:06, Anton Sherwood wrote: > On 2021-3-03 21:53, Gabe Waggoner via extropy-chat wrote: >> (damn my inability to italicize in plain text) > > That's why I use ?guillemets?. > Before Unicode was ubiquitious, I sometimes used . I often use /this is in italics/. I thought that was a convention. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 5 20:50:55 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 14:50:55 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Deutchland uber alles? In-Reply-To: <6e675e06-3f90-e14b-8e76-7fcbf0300e84@zaiboc.net> References: <6e675e06-3f90-e14b-8e76-7fcbf0300e84@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Music, philosophy, engineering, economy, science, caring about other peoples and countries (moral codes,that is). That'll do. bill w On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 2:20 PM Ben via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > billw asked: > > Does anyone on these lists think that the Germans are a superior people? > > > Does anyone think that the Germans are 'a people'?? > > Superior to whom, or what? And in which domain? > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 6 01:55:41 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 19:55:41 -0600 Subject: [ExI] virus data Message-ID: Extreme amounts of data on a popular topic, accessible for the most part (?), and associated with many deaths. Lastly, the ability of *most* people to access this data. Is this unprecedented? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 6 03:10:55 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 19:10:55 -0800 Subject: [ExI] virus data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005201d71236$53754fd0$fa5fef70$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Friday, March 5, 2021 5:56 PM To: ExI chat list ; extropolis at googlegroups.com Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: [ExI] virus data >?Extreme amounts of data on a popular topic, accessible for the most part (?), and associated with many deaths. >?Lastly, the ability of most people to access this data. >?Is this unprecedented? >?bill w I can?t think of any time in history it has ever happened. Plenty of us can do the numbers on Israel. We can make initial assumptions in the worst case (all the vaccines were given twice to the same patients (who now have 95% immunity) and the best case (all the vaccines were given once to all patients (who now have 90% immunity) and see that neither can explain the new case rate. If we assume those efficacy rates being advertised and start multiplying, we can see that something doesn?t add up or multiply out. Please what explanations can we find? The vaccine being used by Israel is less effective? The Israelis have been sent some counterfeit vaccines? They are lying about their numbers, such as they are counting the discarded vaccines as having been given to patients? Their tests are showing a lotta false positives? Other ideas? BillW, back to your question: plenty of us have been given the opportunity to play amateur scientist in the past year. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 6 03:53:27 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 19:53:27 -0800 Subject: [ExI] virus data In-Reply-To: <005201d71236$53754fd0$fa5fef70$@rainier66.com> References: <005201d71236$53754fd0$fa5fef70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <000801d7123c$444ca390$cce5eab0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com >?Please what explanations can we find? OK cool, some hipsters on the topic have told me that if a prole looks at Israelis over age 60, where they focused their immunization efforts, the results look very promising. If there is still a high case load, it will be among younger people, for whom covid is far less likely to cause death or serious side effects. ? >?BillW, back to your question: plenty of us have been given the opportunity to play amateur scientist in the past year. Last week I posted about the wisdom of intentionally giving one?s second dose to someone else, not to be self-sacrificing, but for completely self-interested reasons: giving your second dose to someone else speeds up herd immunity. There is one additional step which I am less sure about: if one is a very low-contact individual, such as one has a stay-home job and has her groceries (and everything else) delivered, and doesn?t see anyone, it makes perfect sense, even with only self-interest, to intentionally refuse the vaccine until everyone who is willing has had at least one dose. Think that one thru. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 6 13:55:06 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 07:55:06 -0600 Subject: [ExI] virus data In-Reply-To: <000801d7123c$444ca390$cce5eab0$@rainier66.com> References: <005201d71236$53754fd0$fa5fef70$@rainier66.com> <000801d7123c$444ca390$cce5eab0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: What I am thinking of is like open source software, only no one has written the kernel (I think that's the right term). Whatever the problem is, you put all the data on a site and invite anyone to help solve it. It would not necessarily involve writing any software and it could offer cash prizes for those who made significant contributions. Many millions of people online who are smart. How can we make use of them? Of course I have no idea how to do this or what questions to post, but so much talent out there, amateurs or hobbyists. Would you guess at how much of the available virus data is being massaged? There has to be a gigantic pile of it just sitting there. who decides which of it to analyze? That is a critical question. bill w On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 9:56 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* spike at rainier66.com > > > > > > >?Please what explanations can we find? > > > > OK cool, some hipsters on the topic have told me that if a prole looks at > Israelis over age 60, where they focused their immunization efforts, the > results look very promising. If there is still a high case load, it will > be among younger people, for whom covid is far less likely to cause death > or serious side effects. > > ? > > > > >?BillW, back to your question: plenty of us have been given the > opportunity to play amateur scientist in the past year. > > > > Last week I posted about the wisdom of intentionally giving one?s second > dose to someone else, not to be self-sacrificing, but for completely > self-interested reasons: giving your second dose to someone else speeds up > herd immunity. There is one additional step which I am less sure about: if > one is a very low-contact individual, such as one has a stay-home job and > has her groceries (and everything else) delivered, and doesn?t see anyone, > it makes perfect sense, even with only self-interest, to intentionally > refuse the vaccine until everyone who is willing has had at least one > dose. Think that one thru. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat Mar 6 15:54:59 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 07:54:59 -0800 Subject: [ExI] virus data In-Reply-To: References: <005201d71236$53754fd0$fa5fef70$@rainier66.com> <000801d7123c$444ca390$cce5eab0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 5:58 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > What I am thinking of is like open source software, only no one has > written the kernel (I think that's the right term). Whatever the problem > is, you put all the data on a site and invite anyone to help solve it. It > would not necessarily involve writing any software and it could offer cash > prizes for those who made significant contributions. > There are how many sites like that already? They need publicity, not yet another competitor. They can get a small burst when they're new, but then they get forgotten over time. The trick is to sustain and grow. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 6 17:38:16 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 09:38:16 -0800 Subject: [ExI] crowdsourced crimefighters Message-ID: <009301d712af$7e3aabb0$7ab00310$@rainier66.com> We had a minor crime occur in a nearby neighborhood. These are two images of the getaway vehicle. I posted them to my motorcycle group, but they are bikers, not SUV crossover people. So I decided to let ExI take a shot at it. A software hipster might be able to write some kind of image-recognition software which could notice such identifying characteristics as the shape of the running-light cutout and the shape of the headlight nacelle. The trailing edge of that headlight comes back to a point and the lower edge is rounded. Could someone offer me a brain transplant (assuming the donor's has about 30 additional IQ points) so I can write software which can do image recognition to identify the getaway car? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7355 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 11656 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 6 18:19:37 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 10:19:37 -0800 Subject: [ExI] crowdsourced crimefighters In-Reply-To: <009301d712af$7e3aabb0$7ab00310$@rainier66.com> References: <009301d712af$7e3aabb0$7ab00310$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00c701d712b5$44f8b710$ceea2530$@rainier66.com> Cool idea for amateur crimefighting math hipsters. Given an image of the getaway vehicle taken at some unknown location, some parameters are known, such as the diameter of the wheels (because those are standard.) Consider the image of the rear wheel below. We know that rear wheel is on the plane of the vehicle. The eye-brain combination already knows that wheel is round, so it is perceived as a circle, but a computer would see that wheel image as an ellipse with the major axis (least foreshortening) forming an angle of about pi/6 from the vertical edge of the image, and the minor axis (greatest foreshortening) perpendicular to that. Since we know the actual (standard) diameter of the rim, we can calculate a scaling factor and pick off the distance from the camera to the center of the rear wheel. Since we know the height of the camera from the ground and the distance of the center wheel from the ground, we have all the info we need: two distances and an angle, or two angles and a distance, either will get you home. Since we know the approximate length of the vehicle and the angle of the plane of the rear wheel with respect to the axis of the POV of the camera, we can use the distance to the center of the rear wheel and the angle of the plane of that wheel with the line of sight, calculate a distance from the camera to the headlight nacelle. Since we would now know the distance from the camera to the headlight nacelle, we calculate the width from the top to the bottom of that nacelle, and for bonus points, the dimensions of the running light cutout, or the dimensions of any other high-contrast feature, the kind of stuff likely to be visible on a night-photo, another example of which is the distance from the front of the fender cutout to the rear of the fender cutout (both for back and front of the vehicle.) Dimensions of headlight nacelles, running light cutouts, wheelbase, etc, are the kind of data which can be kept in a list. Software can calculate the angle to the camera POV and undo the foreshortening, thus calculating those dimensions. We can sooooo nail this perp. Or rather figure out what kind of car she drives. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 11656 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 6 18:47:26 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 10:47:26 -0800 Subject: [ExI] virus data In-Reply-To: References: <005201d71236$53754fd0$fa5fef70$@rainier66.com> <000801d7123c$444ca390$cce5eab0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00e101d712b9$27933ed0$76b9bc70$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >?Many millions of people online who are smart. How can we make use of them? Of course I have no idea how to do this or what questions to post, but so much talent out there, amateurs or hobbyists. The peak covid case rate (7-day rolling average) was about 256k in the USA. Wow, that was convenient. It allows us to instantly do calculations in our heads (assuming our heads think in base 2.) We dropped below 64k a coupla days ago, and it is dropping, so we immediately know the case rate is below a quarter of it was at its peak. Israel?s peak was just over 8k per day (7-day rolling again) but is now just a little below 4k. It hasn?t dropped any in the past 15 days. Dang. >?Would you guess at how much of the available virus data is being massaged? There has to be a gigantic pile of it just sitting there. who decides which of it to analyze? That is a critical question. bill w Ja that has haunted me for a year now BillW. We know that New York did massage their data, for political purposes. They got caught. But how much of that kinda thing didn?t get caught? How many fatalities and illnesses were recorded as covid related in order to get an already-sick prole into the hospital and treated at federal expense? We don?t know. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Mar 6 18:56:42 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 18:56:42 +0000 Subject: [ExI] crowdsourced crimefighters In-Reply-To: <009301d712af$7e3aabb0$7ab00310$@rainier66.com> References: <009301d712af$7e3aabb0$7ab00310$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Mar 2021 at 17:43, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > We had a minor crime occur in a nearby neighborhood. These are two images of the getaway vehicle. I posted them to my motorcycle group, but they are bikers, not SUV crossover people. So I decided to let ExI take a shot at it. > > spike > _______________________________________________ There is a reddit group that does this all the time. Post a car photo to get it identified. BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 6 20:53:17 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 14:53:17 -0600 Subject: [ExI] dr suess In-Reply-To: <007401d711d7$a2775790$e76606b0$@rainier66.com> References: <001c01d711c6$b674be60$235e3b20$@rainier66.com> <002a01d711c9$9827e8d0$c877ba70$@rainier66.com> <007401d711d7$a2775790$e76606b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I read where someone's opinion was that the Japanese took baseball, our tech, and that's all. Their ethos did not change a bit. bill w On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 9:58 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] dr suess > > > > >? the Japanese have very high opinions of themselves - warranted mostly, > I think? > > > > Interesting observation, one which the evolutionary psychology crowd will > likely study. Genetically the Chinese, Vietnamese and Japanese are similar > enough that we can mostly dismiss the notion that genetic differences > explain the differences in their people. We are left with a starting > assumption that culture must explain the differences. Japan had a lot of > contact with the rest of the world and a lot of cultural interchange. > China was more isolated. I don?t know if there is more to it than that. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 6 21:04:42 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 13:04:42 -0800 Subject: [ExI] crowdsourced crimefighters In-Reply-To: References: <009301d712af$7e3aabb0$7ab00310$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <012301d712cc$54b25280$fe16f780$@rainier66.com> .> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] crowdsourced crimefighters On Sat, 6 Mar 2021 at 17:43, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > We had a minor crime occur in a nearby neighborhood. These are two images of the getaway vehicle. I posted them to my motorcycle group, but they are bikers, not SUV crossover people. So I decided to let ExI take a shot at it. > > spike > _______________________________________________ There is a reddit group that does this all the time. Post a car photo to get it identified. < https://www.reddit.com/r/whatisthiscar/> BillK _______________________________________________ BillK, your Reddit site solved it within minutes. Regarding that which I posted earlier, the notion can be best illustrated as shown. Rotate the image such that the line passing thru the wheel centers is parallel to the ground. Find the major axis (blue line) and minor axis (red line.) Take the apparent diameter of both (in pixels) and find the ratio. Might be 1.2 in the image below. Now just move every pixel 1.2 times the distance from rear hub along the axis of the red line. That should result in an undistorted side-view. Pixel-mapping can be done with that. Cool! So now we know the sleazy perp drives a 2014 Volkswagen Tiguan. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17862 bytes Desc: not available URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sat Mar 6 21:33:58 2021 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 13:33:58 -0800 Subject: [ExI] dr suess In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <755E0D80-5A5B-4BE3-B733-9F0B1647890D@gmail.com> On Mar 6, 2021, at 12:56 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:? > I read where someone's opinion was that the Japanese took baseball, our tech, and that's all. Their ethos did not change a bit. bill w Do you believe that? It sounds like a rather shallow view of cultural exchange. Like someone who said it doesn?t know much of how the Meiji Restoration affected Japan. (Or how, even before they, Japan had other outside influences. Read up on how Buddhism and Confucianism spread in Japan and contact with Europeans in 16th century.) And this isn?t to ignore that the Meiji elites actually sent out people to learn Western methods of agriculture, industry, and warfare. But cultural exchange is never fully under control from the top. In answer to Spike?s earlier comment, my amateur historian view here is Japan as a nation state got its act together quickly. China had plenty of foreign influence early, but much of it included direct foreign encroachment. China also suffered severe internal disruptions, including the Taiping Rebellion, which might?ve killed as many as 30 million people. (This was orders of magnitude more severe and last years. Meiji Japan has nothing to compare with it. The Satsuma Rebellion, for instance, killed maybe 40 thousand and lasted a few months. And the disruption caused by it didn?t cripple Japan, and there was no large scale foreign intervention.) Regards, Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Mar 7 15:57:55 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 15:57:55 +0000 Subject: [ExI] crowdsourced crimefighters In-Reply-To: <012301d712cc$54b25280$fe16f780$@rainier66.com> References: <009301d712af$7e3aabb0$7ab00310$@rainier66.com> <012301d712cc$54b25280$fe16f780$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Mar 2021 at 21:09, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > BillK, your Reddit site solved it within minutes. > So now we know the sleazy perp drives a 2014 Volkswagen Tiguan. > > spike > _______________________________________________ I am reading that the police in California don't bother with minor crimes now. "Rampant Shoplifting Forces Ten Bay Area Walgreens To Close March 5, 2021" Theft of less than $950 in goods is treated as a nonviolent misdemeanor under California law. But in most cases, for shoplifting, the criminal is released. So finding their vehicle might not help much. Solution - Move to Florida or Texas like the rest of California escapees! :) BillK From atymes at gmail.com Sun Mar 7 17:21:30 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 09:21:30 -0800 Subject: [ExI] crowdsourced crimefighters In-Reply-To: References: <009301d712af$7e3aabb0$7ab00310$@rainier66.com> <012301d712cc$54b25280$fe16f780$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 7, 2021 at 8:01 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I am reading that the police in California don't bother with minor crimes > now. > > "Rampant Shoplifting Forces Ten Bay Area Walgreens To Close March 5, > 2021" > < > https://dawsoncountyjournal.com/blog/2021/03/05/rampant-shoplifting-forces-ten-bay-area-walgreens-to-close/ > > > Theft of less than $950 in goods is treated as a nonviolent > misdemeanor under California law. But in most cases, for shoplifting, > the criminal is released. > > So finding their vehicle might not help much. > Solution - Move to Florida or Texas like the rest of California escapees! > :) > Solution: fund the courts so that processing these cases becomes a small enough burden that the cops don't have to let these go to make sure that serious crimes reliably get prosecuted. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 7 17:41:01 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 09:41:01 -0800 Subject: [ExI] crowdsourced crimefighters In-Reply-To: References: <009301d712af$7e3aabb0$7ab00310$@rainier66.com> <012301d712cc$54b25280$fe16f780$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004901d71379$0afe2f80$20fa8e80$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] crowdsourced crimefighters On Sat, 6 Mar 2021 at 21:09, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > BillK, your Reddit site solved it within minutes. > So now we know the sleazy perp drives a 2014 Volkswagen Tiguan. > > spike > _______________________________________________ >...I am reading that the police in California don't bother with minor crimes now... Tis true sir. Read on please. >..."Rampant Shoplifting Forces Ten Bay Area Walgreens To Close March 5, 2021" Walgreens was first to go. They tended toward the lower end of the market, so they were more likely to be in areas where more homeless people's not-homes were located. They already were on shaky ground before the constables were told to not bother with petty stuff anymore. This killed a lot of bricks and mortar places. Another casualty of that was the Big 5 Sporting Goods. Anyone could walk in there, gather up whatever they wanted, walk out with it. No point in summoning the constables: they could only write a misdemeanor fine (comparable to a speeding ticket) which of course would be ignored. Translation: bricks and mortar retailers were finished. Covid merely put flowers on their graves. A notable exception: gun shops. Those never closed during covid, they have a booming business and never lost a single firearm to shoplifters. Funny how that works: a shop employee can legally use lethal deterrence against anyone who pulls a gun. The shoplifters seemed to have an uncanny intuition on that one. Theft of less than $950 in goods is treated as a nonviolent misdemeanor under California law. But in most cases, for shoplifting, the criminal is released. >...So finding their vehicle might not help much... On the contrary sir. We think the perp is a local. We have an online community that shames people into pretending to be a decent person. In this particular case, we think the perp has a loose screw. She drives a 2015 VW Tiguan. She came in the night, ripped a plant right out of someone's lawn, while clad in her pajamas and slippers, in full view of two different security cameras, both equipped with infrared capabilities. Now the whole neighborhood is talking about the Great Jade Plant Caper. >...Solution - Move to Florida or Texas like the rest of California escapees! :) >...BillK _______________________________________________ On the contrary again sir. Many have resorted to those kinds of solutions (Nevada being another very popular refuge) but plenty of us recognize that the pendulum swings. In the USA, this process has already begun. In California, it is already happening. Even Seattle and Portland will recover from their current malaise. spike From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 7 18:14:10 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 10:14:10 -0800 Subject: [ExI] crowdsourced crimefighters In-Reply-To: References: <009301d712af$7e3aabb0$7ab00310$@rainier66.com> <012301d712cc$54b25280$fe16f780$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005201d7137d$ac09c480$041d4d80$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat >...Theft of less than $950 in goods is treated as a nonviolent misdemeanor under California law. ... BillK _______________________________________________ BillK, as soon as that law went into effect, a crime wave began (and is still very much with us) aimed at the very common Toyota Prius (hybrid.) Those have two catalytic converters. Toyota designed them so the front one is very convenient for thieves to remove quickly. The MSRP on a new one is $2147.32, of course if you don't work on cars, the local dealer can install one for a labor cost of an additional 460 bucks, so it only costs the Prius-driver about 2500. However... when the constables are summoned after a Prius cat-con theft, they explain the bad news: They can't count that as a 2500 dollar theft of even 2100, since eBay sells used cat-cons, you have the option of buying one (if you don't mind buying stolen goods (probably your own)) for a mere 949 bucks, which makes the theft a misdemeanor, which makes it functionally legal and is the reason the thief will be back next week if she sees your Prius has moved. The good news is... oh wait, that was the good news. The bad news is that if she injures herself while re-stealing your used cat-con, you are liable. Hey, you supplied the bait. The good news is... oh wait, that was also the good news. The bad news is that since the word got around about how easy and profitable it is to steal catcons from the Prius, that particular model has become practically worthless in California. You can sell them in Nevada, Oregon or Arizona for a pittance, but really they don't want them either. The Prius has gone from the socially-responsible choice to an attractive nuisance with the stroke of a pen. My neighbor had his Prius hauled away to the scrap yard where it joined its catconless bretheren. BillK, since you live in a non-crazy nation, your comments and observations are welcome. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Mar 7 18:27:01 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 12:27:01 -0600 Subject: [ExI] crowdsourced crimefighters In-Reply-To: <005201d7137d$ac09c480$041d4d80$@rainier66.com> References: <009301d712af$7e3aabb0$7ab00310$@rainier66.com> <012301d712cc$54b25280$fe16f780$@rainier66.com> <005201d7137d$ac09c480$041d4d80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The bad news is that if she injures herself while re-stealing your used cat-con, you are liable My understanding from a Torts class in 1965 that you are liable to a thief only if you boobytrap something. Just a car sitting there won't do, I think, unless torts' laws have changed. I think there is something fishy here. Surely some sort of gadget could be welded on to prevent those thefts. Trashing a whole car? bill w On Sun, Mar 7, 2021 at 12:17 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of > BillK via extropy-chat > > >...Theft of less than $950 in goods is treated as a nonviolent misdemeanor > under California law. ... > BillK > _______________________________________________ > > > BillK, as soon as that law went into effect, a crime wave began (and is > still very much with us) aimed at the very common Toyota Prius (hybrid.) > Those have two catalytic converters. Toyota designed them so the front one > is very convenient for thieves to remove quickly. The MSRP on a new one is > $2147.32, of course if you don't work on cars, the local dealer can install > one for a labor cost of an additional 460 bucks, so it only costs the > Prius-driver about 2500. > > However... when the constables are summoned after a Prius cat-con theft, > they explain the bad news: They can't count that as a 2500 dollar theft of > even 2100, since eBay sells used cat-cons, you have the option of buying > one > (if you don't mind buying stolen goods (probably your own)) for a mere 949 > bucks, which makes the theft a misdemeanor, which makes it functionally > legal and is the reason the thief will be back next week if she sees your > Prius has moved. > > The good news is... oh wait, that was the good news. The bad news is that > if she injures herself while re-stealing your used cat-con, you are liable. > Hey, you supplied the bait. > > The good news is... oh wait, that was also the good news. The bad news is > that since the word got around about how easy and profitable it is to steal > catcons from the Prius, that particular model has become practically > worthless in California. You can sell them in Nevada, Oregon or Arizona > for > a pittance, but really they don't want them either. The Prius has gone > from > the socially-responsible choice to an attractive nuisance with the stroke > of > a pen. > > My neighbor had his Prius hauled away to the scrap yard where it joined its > catconless bretheren. > > BillK, since you live in a non-crazy nation, your comments and observations > are welcome. > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 7 18:49:06 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 10:49:06 -0800 Subject: [ExI] crowdsourced crimefighters In-Reply-To: References: <009301d712af$7e3aabb0$7ab00310$@rainier66.com> <012301d712cc$54b25280$fe16f780$@rainier66.com> <005201d7137d$ac09c480$041d4d80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005c01d71382$8d8e52f0$a8aaf8d0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Sunday, March 7, 2021 10:27 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: Re: [ExI] crowdsourced crimefighters The bad news is that if she injures herself while re-stealing your used cat-con, you are liable >?My understanding from a Torts class in 1965 that you are liable to a thief only if you boobytrap something. Just a car sitting there won't do, I think, unless torts' laws have changed? BillW, you live in a sane state. I do not. >?I think there is something fishy here. Surely some sort of gadget could be welded on to prevent those thefts. Trashing a whole car? bill w Sure you can buy those anti-theft kits and have them installed, but they do require a welder if they are the ones not easily defeated. So again the beleaguered Prius driver must hire a shop. If you have an anti-theft kit installed, the thief might vandalize your car for interfering with her otherwise thriving business. A few years ago, there was a big theft wave on BMW nostrils: those two decorative pieces up front there with the trademark vertical bars. Thieves figured out how to steal those without lifting the hood on some models with only very minor damage to the stolen part and the car. BMW nostroils cost about 600 bucks each if a prole insists on genuine BMW parts. Plastic aftermarket lookalikes were a lot cheaper but the seller was obligated to reveal if the car had those, which is why there were so many ads for selling a 540 with one or two aftermarket nostrils. BMW does not condone aftermarket parts and considers the design their intellectual property, so they referred to them as counterfeit nostrils. That was back in the days when stealing a 600 dollar part was still a crime. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Mar 7 19:02:46 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 11:02:46 -0800 Subject: [ExI] crowdsourced crimefighters In-Reply-To: <004901d71379$0afe2f80$20fa8e80$@rainier66.com> References: <009301d712af$7e3aabb0$7ab00310$@rainier66.com> <012301d712cc$54b25280$fe16f780$@rainier66.com> <004901d71379$0afe2f80$20fa8e80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 7, 2021 at 9:43 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On the contrary sir. We think the perp is a local. We have an online > community that shames people into pretending to be a decent person. > > In this particular case, we think the perp has a loose screw. She drives a > 2015 VW Tiguan. She came in the night, ripped a plant right out of > someone's lawn, while clad in her pajamas and slippers, in full view of two > different security cameras, both equipped with infrared capabilities. Now > the whole neighborhood is talking about the Great Jade Plant Caper. > So you think you know who did it? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Mar 7 19:04:09 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 11:04:09 -0800 Subject: [ExI] crowdsourced crimefighters In-Reply-To: <005201d7137d$ac09c480$041d4d80$@rainier66.com> References: <009301d712af$7e3aabb0$7ab00310$@rainier66.com> <012301d712cc$54b25280$fe16f780$@rainier66.com> <005201d7137d$ac09c480$041d4d80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 7, 2021 at 10:16 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The good news is... oh wait, that was also the good news. The bad news is > that since the word got around about how easy and profitable it is to steal > catcons from the Prius, that particular model has become practically > worthless in California. You can sell them in Nevada, Oregon or Arizona > for > a pittance, but really they don't want them either. The Prius has gone > from > the socially-responsible choice to an attractive nuisance with the stroke > of > a pen. > > My neighbor had his Prius hauled away to the scrap yard where it joined its > catconless bretheren. > That would partially explain why I got such a low price when I traded in my older-model Prius for a Tesla not too long ago, even though the Prius still had its catalytic convertor. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Mar 7 19:10:38 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 13:10:38 -0600 Subject: [ExI] crowdsourced crimefighters In-Reply-To: <005c01d71382$8d8e52f0$a8aaf8d0$@rainier66.com> References: <009301d712af$7e3aabb0$7ab00310$@rainier66.com> <012301d712cc$54b25280$fe16f780$@rainier66.com> <005201d7137d$ac09c480$041d4d80$@rainier66.com> <005c01d71382$8d8e52f0$a8aaf8d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Let's see - you can kill an intruder, but if he falls and hurts himself he can sue for damages if he trips over a book you left on the floor. bill w On Sun, Mar 7, 2021 at 12:52 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Sunday, March 7, 2021 10:27 AM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] crowdsourced crimefighters > > > > The bad news is that > > if she injures herself while re-stealing your used cat-con, you are liable > > > > >?My understanding from a Torts class in 1965 that you are liable to a > thief only if you boobytrap something. Just a car sitting there won't do, > I think, unless torts' laws have changed? > > > > BillW, you live in a sane state. I do not. > > > > > > > > >?I think there is something fishy here. Surely some sort of gadget > could be welded on to prevent those thefts. Trashing a whole car? > > bill w > > > > Sure you can buy those anti-theft kits and have them installed, but they > do require a welder if they are the ones not easily defeated. So again the > beleaguered Prius driver must hire a shop. If you have an anti-theft kit > installed, the thief might vandalize your car for interfering with her > otherwise thriving business. > > > > A few years ago, there was a big theft wave on BMW nostrils: those two > decorative pieces up front there with the trademark vertical bars. Thieves > figured out how to steal those without lifting the hood on some models with > only very minor damage to the stolen part and the car. > > > > BMW nostroils cost about 600 bucks each if a prole insists on genuine BMW > parts. Plastic aftermarket lookalikes were a lot cheaper but the seller > was obligated to reveal if the car had those, which is why there were so > many ads for selling a 540 with one or two aftermarket nostrils. BMW does > not condone aftermarket parts and considers the design their intellectual > property, so they referred to them as counterfeit nostrils. > > > > That was back in the days when stealing a 600 dollar part was still a > crime. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 7 19:31:30 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 11:31:30 -0800 Subject: [ExI] crowdsourced crimefighters In-Reply-To: References: <009301d712af$7e3aabb0$7ab00310$@rainier66.com> <012301d712cc$54b25280$fe16f780$@rainier66.com> <004901d71379$0afe2f80$20fa8e80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <009f01d71388$79bda270$6d38e750$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] crowdsourced crimefighters On Sun, Mar 7, 2021 at 9:43 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: On the contrary sir. We think the perp is a local. We have an online community that shames people into pretending to be a decent person. In this particular case, we think the perp has a loose screw. She drives a 2015 VW Tiguan. She came in the night, ripped a plant right out of someone's lawn, while clad in her pajamas and slippers, in full view of two different security cameras, both equipped with infrared capabilities. Now the whole neighborhood is talking about the Great Jade Plant Caper. >?So you think you know who did it? Hi Adrian, I don?t but the people who care about that kind of stuff think they do. It is entirely possible the perp in this case needs some mental health intervention (from what I hear.) I am not really involved in human-level interactions. Too messy. That?s why we have people like BillW. But we also have people like me, who had a ball yesterday working out the equations for how to derive an undistorted side view of a car given an oblique camera view. There is a way to do it. The camera-induced distortion can be undone with a matrix-multiply. Cool! Not only can software car-recognition be done, it isn?t even difficult. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 7 19:33:32 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 11:33:32 -0800 Subject: [ExI] crowdsourced crimefighters In-Reply-To: References: <009301d712af$7e3aabb0$7ab00310$@rainier66.com> <012301d712cc$54b25280$fe16f780$@rainier66.com> <005201d7137d$ac09c480$041d4d80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00a801d71388$c2a719d0$47f54d70$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] crowdsourced crimefighters On Sun, Mar 7, 2021 at 10:16 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >? The Prius has gone from the socially-responsible choice to an attractive nuisance with the stroke of a pen. My neighbor had his Prius hauled away to the scrap yard where it joined its catconless bretheren. >?That would partially explain why I got such a low price when I traded in my older-model Prius for a Tesla not too long ago, even though the Prius still had its catalytic convertor? Adrian your sale had a lotta competitors. You can go over to Wheels and Deals over in your neighborhood (on El Camino) and find all the used Prii you could ever want. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 7 19:37:16 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 11:37:16 -0800 Subject: [ExI] crowdsourced crimefighters In-Reply-To: References: <009301d712af$7e3aabb0$7ab00310$@rainier66.com> <012301d712cc$54b25280$fe16f780$@rainier66.com> <005201d7137d$ac09c480$041d4d80$@rainier66.com> <005c01d71382$8d8e52f0$a8aaf8d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00b101d71389$4814a9c0$d83dfd40$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Sunday, March 7, 2021 11:11 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: Re: [ExI] crowdsourced crimefighters >?Let's see - you can kill an intruder, but if he falls and hurts himself he can sue for damages if he trips over a book you left on the floor. bill w Tort law is weird. The liability for injuries to a Prius catcon thief depends on whether the car was parked in your driveway or on the street. It is less risky to park on public property, which also makes it more convenient for the thief. This is assuming no one runs over her legs while she is under there. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 7 20:48:22 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 12:48:22 -0800 Subject: [ExI] crowdsourced crimefighters In-Reply-To: References: <009301d712af$7e3aabb0$7ab00310$@rainier66.com> <012301d712cc$54b25280$fe16f780$@rainier66.com> <005201d7137d$ac09c480$041d4d80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00cf01d71393$370650c0$a512f240$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat >?That would partially explain why I got such a low price when I traded in my older-model Prius for a Tesla not too long ago, even though the Prius still had its catalytic convertor. Adrian Adrian look at the bright side: your Tesla doesn?t have (or need) a catalytic converter. Other benefits: * people look at you with respect when you drive a Tesla for several reasons: they cost a lot, so they assume you make a lotta money so they assume you are smart and diligent. * They are not only American made, they are California made, so you support the local economy (thanks for that.) * They keep our air cleaner by enabling emissions to be moved elsewhere (and help the economy at that elsewhere.) * I would argue that they contribute to the economic logic of alternate energy sources and infrastructure because of their charging needs (they charge at night.) * They are an example of good engineering and how that benefits consumers * They develop supporting manufacturing infrastructure and technology in lightweight lithium battery * They promote robotic manufacturing technology * They indirectly promote space exploration by making money for Mr. Musk to support his delightful rocketry habit * They have done wonders for the neighborhoods surrounding the plant out here on the east side of the valley * They are the symbol of triumphant capitalism Thanks man. Anyone else want to drive a Tesla: GREAT! Do it. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 7 21:01:41 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 13:01:41 -0800 Subject: [ExI] crowdsourced crimefighters In-Reply-To: <00cf01d71393$370650c0$a512f240$@rainier66.com> References: <009301d712af$7e3aabb0$7ab00310$@rainier66.com> <012301d712cc$54b25280$fe16f780$@rainier66.com> <005201d7137d$ac09c480$041d4d80$@rainier66.com> <00cf01d71393$370650c0$a512f240$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00e401d71395$135bff10$3a13fd30$@rainier66.com> Additional benefits to Teslas: * The state of California, suffering from declining revenue from gas taxes, will likely enact a car mileage tax, which benefits most of us in the long run, particularly those of us who don?t drive very far * It encourages home delivery (to save on car mileage tax) which reduces traffic * In increases the power grid baseload, which (indirectly) reduces the cost of electricity * It encourages the resumption of construction of nuke plants (they make sense with higher power demands) * They look cool * They go fast * Smart people come to America to build them (mostly from India) spike From: spike at rainier66.com Sent: Sunday, March 7, 2021 12:48 PM To: 'ExI chat list' Cc: 'Cc:' Subject: RE: [ExI] crowdsourced crimefighters ?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat >?That would partially explain why I got such a low price when I traded in my older-model Prius for a Tesla not too long ago, even though the Prius still had its catalytic convertor. Adrian Adrian look at the bright side: your Tesla doesn?t have (or need) a catalytic converter. Other benefits: * people look at you with respect when you drive a Tesla for several reasons: they cost a lot, so they assume you make a lotta money so they assume you are smart and diligent. * They are not only American made, they are California made, so you support the local economy (thanks for that.) * They keep our air cleaner by enabling emissions to be moved elsewhere (and help the economy at that elsewhere.) * I would argue that they contribute to the economic logic of alternate energy sources and infrastructure because of their charging needs (they charge at night.) * They are an example of good engineering and how that benefits consumers * They develop supporting manufacturing infrastructure and technology in lightweight lithium battery * They promote robotic manufacturing technology * They indirectly promote space exploration by making money for Mr. Musk to support his delightful rocketry habit * They have done wonders for the neighborhoods surrounding the plant out here on the east side of the valley * They are the symbol of triumphant capitalism Thanks man. Anyone else want to drive a Tesla: GREAT! Do it. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 7 21:10:53 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 13:10:53 -0800 Subject: [ExI] it makes economic sense Message-ID: <00f801d71396$5c3fdbb0$14bf9310$@rainier66.com> Note that I am not sayin I would do this, just sayin. A 10% chance of getting 1000 bucks is "worth" 100 bucks in a sense, if you treat mathematical expectation the same way I do. Suppose a student is making it OK, but now she perceives there is about a 10% chance the government will forgive student loans. She takes out a 50k student loan she doesn't need for a virtual profit of 5k. It's a win-draw: if no student loan forgiveness, pay back, no problem. If forgiveness, hey, free 50k. In our times, it makes perfect economic sense for any student to borrow up to the suggested 50k limit, regardless of need. In a sense, it becomes risky to leave borrowing potential on the table: if student loan forgiveness happens and the student didn't borrow, then she still faces college costs, no new loans are available, and she is one of those on the hook to pay back other people's free money. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hibbard at wisc.edu Sun Mar 7 21:29:35 2021 From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 15:29:35 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ExI] crowdsourced crimefighters Message-ID: > They develop supporting manufacturing infrastructure > and technology in lightweight lithium battery I occasionally have to park outdoors and on a Wisconsin winter night that can mean a dead battery. So I got a jump starter. It's a one pound lithium battery that can generate 800 amps. What a great accessory. > Anyone else want to drive a Tesla: GREAT! Do it. A few years ago a friend let me drive his Tesla Model 3 dual motor performance. What a rocket, not to mention pretty good self-driving. It took a good deal of will to resist buying one (I need to keep my driver's license). From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 7 21:55:07 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 13:55:07 -0800 Subject: [ExI] crowdsourced crimefighters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <014301d7139c$8a414c00$9ec3e400$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Bill Hibbard via extropy-chat >...I occasionally have to park outdoors and on a Wisconsin winter night that can mean a dead battery. So I got a jump starter. It's a one pound lithium battery that can generate 800 amps. What a great accessory. >...A few years ago a friend let me drive his Tesla Model 3 dual motor performance. What a rocket, not to mention pretty good self-driving. It took a good deal of will to resist buying one (I need to keep my driver's license). _______________________________________________ Heh. Bill, that's a Model 3. Imagine how a Dual S will go. My neighbor is a hotrod guy and he agrees his is a rocket. He loves it. Offered to let me drive it. I politely declined, for a good reason: I don't want to want one. Does anyone from way the heck up there have info on how Teslas do when it is absurdly cold? My intuition tells me that since they will still go (slowly) at very low temperature, then they will warm up as you drive and should be fine after a few km. Those of you who can afford a Tesla, do let me encourage you: go for it. You are doing a good deed. spike From interzone at gmail.com Sun Mar 7 22:11:20 2021 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 17:11:20 -0500 Subject: [ExI] crowdsourced crimefighters In-Reply-To: <014301d7139c$8a414c00$9ec3e400$@rainier66.com> References: <014301d7139c$8a414c00$9ec3e400$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 7, 2021 at 4:56 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Does anyone from way the heck up there have info on how Teslas do when it > is > absurdly cold? My intuition tells me that since they will still go > (slowly) > at very low temperature, then they will warm up as you drive and should be > fine after a few km. > > A number of studies have been done. This is one of them (it may not reflect current state of the art though): AAA tested the BMW i3s, Chevrolet Bolt and Nissan Leaf from the 2018 model year, and the 2017 Tesla Model S 75D and Volkswagen e-Golf. All have a range of at least 100 miles per charge. They were tested on a dynamometer, which is like a treadmill, in a climate-controlled cell. The automobile club tested the cars at 20 degrees and 95 degrees, comparing the range to when they were tested at 75 degrees Fahrenheit, according to a report on the study. *At 20 degrees, the average driving range fell by 12% when the car?s cabin heater was not used. When the heater was turned on, the range dropped by 41%, AAA said.* At 95 degrees, range dropped 4% without use of air conditioning, and fell by 17% when the cabin was cooled, the study found. For example, AAA?s testers determined that the Tesla?s range when fully charged at 75 degrees was 239 miles, but it fell 91 miles, or 38%, at 20 degrees. In a statement, Tesla disputed the AAA results. The company said that based on data collected from its cars on the road, ?the average Model S customer doesn?t experience anywhere near that decrease in range.? The company said the range dropped by roughly 1% at 95 degrees, but it would not release a percentage for cold weather. https://www.marketwatch.com/story/cold-weather-saps-electric-car-batteries-2019-02-07 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Mar 8 22:23:02 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 16:23:02 -0600 Subject: [ExI] red rabbit Message-ID: OK, you evolutionary theorists, come up with an explanation for the rabbit: https://www.nature.com/immersive/d41586-021-00485-2/index.html? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Mar 8 23:50:51 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 15:50:51 -0800 Subject: [ExI] red rabbit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Can some rabbits, or some creatures the rabbit interacts with, see in ultraviolet? If so, this marking would be visible to them. The utility depends on who exactly sees it: warning off predators, welcoming fellow rabbits to breed with (perhaps denoting it's this specific breed of rabbit so as to encourage breeding with that rabbit instead of others), and so on. On Mon, Mar 8, 2021 at 2:25 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > OK, you evolutionary theorists, come up with an explanation for the rabbit: > https://www.nature.com/immersive/d41586-021-00485-2/index.html? > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Mar 9 00:19:42 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 00:19:42 +0000 Subject: [ExI] red rabbit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Mar 2021 at 23:55, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > Can some rabbits, or some creatures the rabbit interacts with, see in ultraviolet? If so, this marking would be visible to them. The utility depends on who exactly sees it: warning off predators, welcoming fellow rabbits to breed with (perhaps denoting it's this specific breed of rabbit so as to encourage breeding with that rabbit instead of others), and so on. > Yes. the linked Science paper explains in more detail. Many mammals show biofluoresence, mostly nocturnal, like these springhares, with eyes that can see UV. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Tue Mar 9 00:38:28 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 16:38:28 -0800 Subject: [ExI] red rabbit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006901d7147c$86ac54a0$9404fde0$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] red rabbit On Mon, 8 Mar 2021 at 23:55, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > Can some rabbits, or some creatures the rabbit interacts with, see in ultraviolet? If so, this marking would be visible to them. The utility depends on who exactly sees it: warning off predators, welcoming fellow rabbits to breed with (perhaps denoting it's this specific breed of rabbit so as to encourage breeding with that rabbit instead of others), and so on....BillK _______________________________________________ Rattlesnakes see into the infrared. Perhaps being bioluminescent in the UV somehow makes them less recognizable in the IR? spike From protokol2020 at gmail.com Tue Mar 9 10:33:04 2021 From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 11:33:04 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Microsoft's Quantum Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: New development indeed! https://science.slashdot.org/story/21/03/08/2037254/microsoft-led-team-retracts-disputed-quantum-computing-paper On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 3:34 AM John Clark wrote: > There is a rumor Microsoft is just weeks away from making a major > announcement about quantum computers. > > https://www.cbronline.com/news/microsoft-set-5-year-quantum-computing > > If true this could be huge because Microsoft is working on a topological > quantum computer that operates by manipulating exotic Majorana fermions > ? and ?produces far fewer errors than conventional quantum computers, if > any quantum computer could be called conventional. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Mar 10 12:30:54 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 12:30:54 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Covid increasing 'deaths of despair' for the working class Message-ID: Lifespan now more associated with college degree than race: Princeton economists By Theo Wayt March 8, 2021 Quotes -- The one-third of adult Americans who have bachelor's degrees have been living progressively longer over the past three decades, while the two-thirds without bachelor's degrees have been dying younger since 2010, according to new research by two Princeton University economists who first sounded the alarm on "deaths of despair." ---------------- "For people without a bachelor's degree, for at least the first six months of the pandemic, it was either 'I risk my life' or 'I risk my livelihood,'" said Case. "There's no reason to think that it's going to be anything but very bad news in terms of even lower life expectancy for people without a bachelor's degree." The longer-term fall in life expectancy for the working class has coincided with declining union membership and a globalized economic system with fewer U.S. manufacturing jobs, Case said. As economic prospects for people without college degrees have fallen, working class people ? especially whites ? have died more frequently from drug overdoses, suicides and alcoholism, a pattern that Case and Deaton identified using the now-ubiquitous term "deaths of despair" in a 2015 paper and 2020 book. ---------------- Case said that the mortality gap she and Deaton identified shows that broader economic changes are required to increase the power of workers. "We need to figure out in this country how labor is going to regain its seat at the table when the pie gets cut," she said. "If we don't do that, we are at risk for things that will make the Jan. 6 seizure of the Capitol look like nothing." ----------------------- End quotes. The social problems in the US haven't gone away. Increasing inequality will make the situation worse. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Wed Mar 10 15:57:14 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 07:57:14 -0800 Subject: [ExI] rip outlaw poet Message-ID: <000201d715c6$0aa71930$1ff54b90$@rainier66.com> Justin Corwin Obituary - (2020) - Salt Lake City, UT - The Salt Lake Tribune (legacy.com) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Mar 10 18:55:12 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 12:55:12 -0600 Subject: [ExI] amazing scifi books Message-ID: Hugo winner: A Memory Called Empire; second book: A Desolation Called Peace. I have been reading scifi since 1950 or so, and these two books will make my top ten easily. Most nuanced description of aliens and most different aliens I have encountered in my reading . Mostly female cast (author is lesbian and so are some of the characters - doesn't put me off a bit). https://smile.amazon.com/Memory-Called-Empire-Teixcalaan/dp/1250186447/ref=sr_1_1 ? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed Mar 10 22:02:41 2021 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 22:02:41 +0000 Subject: [ExI] The outrage-industrial complex Message-ID: https://thenib.com/the-outrage-industrial-complex/ >From the same folks that brought you the War on Christmas... :) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst From pharos at gmail.com Fri Mar 12 14:31:31 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 14:31:31 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Antikythera Mechanism solved. Message-ID: 2,000-Year-Old Greek Astronomical Calculator: Experts Recreate a Mechanical Cosmos for the World?s First Computer By University College London March 12, 2021 Using an ancient Greek mathematical method described by the philosopher Parmenides, the UCL team not only explained how the cycles for Venus and Saturn were derived but also managed to recover the cycles of all the other planets, where the evidence was missing. PhD candidate and team member David Higgon explained: ?After considerable struggle, we managed to match the evidence in Fragments A and D to a mechanism for Venus, which exactly models its 462-year planetary period relation, with the 63-tooth gear playing a crucial role.? Professor Freeth added: ?The team then created innovative mechanisms for all of the planets that would calculate the new advanced astronomical cycles and minimize the number of gears in the whole system, so that they would fit into the tight spaces available.? ------------------- Remarkable ancient engineering! Although as in evolution, it wouldn't have been created all at once. The brilliant designer would have done one part, then gradually added more gears to the system to end up with this wonderful creation. Pretty cool work for 100 BC! BillK From pharos at gmail.com Sat Mar 13 16:04:40 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 16:04:40 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Antikythera Mechanism solved. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Mar 2021 at 14:31, BillK wrote: > > 2,000-Year-Old Greek Astronomical Calculator: > Experts Recreate a Mechanical Cosmos for the World?s First Computer > By University College London March 12, 2021 > > > This shoebox sized mechanism was a highly-sophisticated hand-powered gearbox capable of accurately predicting the motions of the five planets known to the ancient Greeks, as well as the sun, the phases of the moon and the solar and lunar eclipses ?? displaying them all relative to the timings of ancient events such as the Olympic Games. There is a 30 minutes video showing the construction and how it worked. Truly amazing! BillK From pharos at gmail.com Wed Mar 17 19:57:22 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 19:57:22 +0000 Subject: [ExI] 30 Solutions to the Fermi Paradox Message-ID: Not really 'solutions' - more like 'possible explanations'. But still a useful summary. Ella Alderson Mar 17 ? 10 min read ============== Some possibilities seem more likely than others. Fundamentally though, the great distances involved make interstellar travel really difficult. Maybe that task has to be left for AIs to do. BillK From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed Mar 17 20:33:58 2021 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 13:33:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 30 Solutions to the Fermi Paradox In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8A988BB5-EA17-4DD6-AC04-C82BBD72DB3F@gmail.com> On Mar 17, 2021, at 1:02 PM, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > ?Not really 'solutions' - more like 'possible explanations'. > But still a useful summary. > > > Ella Alderson Mar 17 ? 10 min read > ============== > > Some possibilities seem more likely than others. > Fundamentally though, the great distances involved make interstellar > travel really difficult. Maybe that task has to be left for AIs to do. I read Stephen Webb?s book years ago. It has 50 ?solutions? in that edition, but the update now has 75! The problem with the huge distances argument is time and numbers: given enough time and enough attempts (by the same or other civilizations), you?d expect some to carry out expansion. You would unless their numbers are really low (there are no other or few space-faring civilizations) and they either don?t last or are very young. You have to explain why the numbers are so low or all space-faring civilizations are young (or both). (If the numbers of them are not low and they are not all or mostly as young or younger than ours, then you have to also explain why they all manage not to do it. Every last one, since even one capable of doing it slowly would likely colonize or visit the whole galaxy in a few hundred thousand years. Imagine, for instance, most civilizations opt to stay home, but one weird one doesn?t and that one itches to colonize everything that?s not occupied or where there?s no pushback. That one would quickly ? well, less than a million years ? colonize the galaxy.) But you know know all this, no? Regards, Dan From pharos at gmail.com Wed Mar 17 23:03:26 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 23:03:26 +0000 Subject: [ExI] 30 Solutions to the Fermi Paradox In-Reply-To: <8A988BB5-EA17-4DD6-AC04-C82BBD72DB3F@gmail.com> References: <8A988BB5-EA17-4DD6-AC04-C82BBD72DB3F@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 at 20:38, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: > > I read Stephen Webb?s book years ago. It has 50 ?solutions? in that edition, but the update now has 75! > > The problem with the huge distances argument is time and numbers: given enough time and enough attempts (by the same or other civilizations), you?d expect some to carry out expansion. You would unless their numbers are really low (there are no other or few space-faring civilizations) and they either don?t last or are very young. You have to explain why the numbers are so low or all space-faring civilizations are young (or both). > > (If the numbers of them are not low and they are not all or mostly as young or younger than ours, then you have to also explain why they all manage not to do it. Every last one, since even one capable of doing it slowly would likely colonize or visit the whole galaxy in a few hundred thousand years. Imagine, for instance, most civilizations opt to stay home, but one weird one doesn?t and that one itches to colonize everything that?s not occupied or where there?s no pushback. That one would quickly ? well, less than a million years ? colonize the galaxy.) > > But you know know all this, no? > > Regards, Dan > _______________________________________________ Yes, I've heard that calculation. But I like to think about the practicalities. Slow exploration means that the journey to the next star will exceed the lifespan of the crew. That is not very appealing to explorers who won't get to do any exploring. To get round this problem, ideas like generation ships or crew hibernation for centuries and / or vastly increased lifespans are suggested. None of which are very attractive. That's why these centuries long treks could be handed over to AIs. But interstellar ships don't come cheap. It would take planet-scale resources to create these ships and require a planetary population to agree to assign their resources to the project. Theoretically possible, but would it ever actually happen? The project plans always seem to require the box (or boxes) that say 'Magic happens here'. BillK From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Mar 18 00:29:21 2021 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 17:29:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 30 Solutions to the Fermi Paradox In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <754D6DF5-927B-487B-B47A-3685B92EDA19@gmail.com> On Mar 17, 2021, at 4:06 PM, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > ?On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 at 20:38, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat > wrote: >> >> I read Stephen Webb?s book years ago. It has 50 ?solutions? in that edition, but the update now has 75! >> >> The problem with the huge distances argument is time and numbers: given enough time and enough attempts (by the same or other civilizations), you?d expect some to carry out expansion. You would unless their numbers are really low (there are no other or few space-faring civilizations) and they either don?t last or are very young. You have to explain why the numbers are so low or all space-faring civilizations are young (or both). >> >> (If the numbers of them are not low and they are not all or mostly as young or younger than ours, then you have to also explain why they all manage not to do it. Every last one, since even one capable of doing it slowly would likely colonize or visit the whole galaxy in a few hundred thousand years. Imagine, for instance, most civilizations opt to stay home, but one weird one doesn?t and that one itches to colonize everything that?s not occupied or where there?s no pushback. That one would quickly ? well, less than a million years ? colonize the galaxy.) >> >> But you know know all this, no? >> >> Regards, Dan >> _________________________________________ > > Yes, I've heard that calculation. But I like to think about the practicalities. > Slow exploration means that the journey to the next star will exceed > the lifespan of the crew. That is not very appealing to explorers who > won't get to do any exploring. To get round this problem, ideas like > generation ships or crew hibernation for centuries and / or vastly > increased lifespans are suggested. None of which are very attractive. > That's why these centuries long treks could be handed over to AIs. > But interstellar ships don't come cheap. It would take planet-scale > resources to create these ships and require a planetary population to > agree to assign their resources to the project. Theoretically > possible, but would it ever actually happen? > The project plans always seem to require the box (or boxes) that say > 'Magic happens here'. It?s all speculation, but I think the paradox relies on numbers and time. Given enough spacefaring civilizations ? AI or no ? and enough time, it seems plausible one or more of them would?ve colonized the galaxy (or left some unambiguous traces) by now. Since you don?t see this, it means there are few or there hasn?t been enough time. Brining up something like the copernican principle ? you?re not a privileged observer in cosmic terms ? it seems hard to accept that humans have come early to the game or that observers like humans are rare. I also don?t think interstellar travel requires any magic. Generation ships or hibernation or sending out AI/nanotechnology seems plausible. Costs here depend on future advances and resource availabilities that don?t seem off the scale. (Heck, during our lifetime, the cost of spaceflight increased because basically it was a oligopolistic market ? not because spaceflight is inherently costly. It?s only dropping now because a handful of disruptive players have entered the market and some minor policy changes by one major consumer (NASA) of spaceflight. Had history been a little different, humans might already have started a few scale settlements across the solar system.) Regards, Dan From spike at rainier66.com Thu Mar 18 00:55:17 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 17:55:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 30 Solutions to the Fermi Paradox In-Reply-To: <754D6DF5-927B-487B-B47A-3685B92EDA19@gmail.com> References: <754D6DF5-927B-487B-B47A-3685B92EDA19@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002401d71b91$5dbaf3a0$1930dae0$@rainier66.com> On Mar 17, 2021, at 4:06 PM, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > ?On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 at 20:38, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat > wrote: >> >> I read Stephen Webb?s book years ago. It has 50 ?solutions? in that edition, but the update now has 75! BillK, the real paradox isn't so much that no civilization appears to have colonized the galaxy, but rather that there is an absence of radio signals. I think I understand why no one has managed to cross the enormous gulf between stars: it is just too dang far for actual life forms to traverse, even at the dense core of the galaxy. But I am still astonished there are no signals. spike From msd001 at gmail.com Thu Mar 18 01:09:40 2021 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 21:09:40 -0400 Subject: [ExI] 30 Solutions to the Fermi Paradox In-Reply-To: <002401d71b91$5dbaf3a0$1930dae0$@rainier66.com> References: <754D6DF5-927B-487B-B47A-3685B92EDA19@gmail.com> <002401d71b91$5dbaf3a0$1930dae0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 17, 2021, 8:58 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > BillK, the real paradox isn't so much that no civilization appears to have > colonized the galaxy, but rather that there is an absence of radio > signals. I think I understand why no one has managed to cross the enormous > gulf between stars: it is just too dang far for actual life forms to > traverse, even at the dense core of the galaxy. But I am still astonished > there are no signals. > Take out your old AM/FM radio and see if you can tune in any part of the WiFi or LTE signals going through your house. Even if we know where to look, would we actually recognize signals among all the no signals we do see? We barely manage to communicate among humans when both parties understand sentence semantics and word meanings. We are only starting to recognize intelligence in birds and animals who share our ecosystem and basis for life. My preferred answer to Fermi's is that we're just not capable yet. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Mar 18 01:55:45 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 18:55:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 30 Solutions to the Fermi Paradox In-Reply-To: References: <754D6DF5-927B-487B-B47A-3685B92EDA19@gmail.com> <002401d71b91$5dbaf3a0$1930dae0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003b01d71b99$d039bcb0$70ad3610$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] 30 Solutions to the Fermi Paradox On Wed, Mar 17, 2021, 8:58 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: BillK, the real paradox isn't so much that no civilization appears to have colonized the galaxy, but rather that there is an absence of radio signals. I think I understand why no one has managed to cross the enormous gulf between stars: it is just too dang far for actual life forms to traverse, even at the dense core of the galaxy. But I am still astonished there are no signals. >?Take out your old AM/FM radio and see if you can tune in any part of the WiFi or LTE signals going through your house. ? >?My preferred answer to Fermi's is that we're just not capable yet. Entirely possible Mike. But we are doing constant frequency scanning, so we can detect all the AM and FM signals still zinging around, as well as all the other frequencies. We can tell if a signal is there. This is what SETI-AtHome does: sifts thru enormous piles of data looking for a carrier frequency. I think you are right however: there is some form of radio communications that we don?t know about yet, which I think is highly directional collimated EM. If we are not in the line of sight, we don?t get the signal. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Mar 18 02:55:52 2021 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 19:55:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 30 Solutions to the Fermi Paradox In-Reply-To: <002401d71b91$5dbaf3a0$1930dae0$@rainier66.com> References: <002401d71b91$5dbaf3a0$1930dae0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <2580B302-868A-4C35-B9B2-21A00E1E532B@gmail.com> On Mar 17, 2021, at 5:58 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > BillK, the real paradox isn't so much that no civilization appears to have colonized the galaxy, Maybe the real paradox is the friends we?ve made along the way. ;) > but rather that there is an absence of radio signals. I think I understand why no one has managed to cross the enormous gulf between stars: it is just too dang far for actual life forms to traverse, even at the dense core of the galaxy. But I am still astonished there are no signals > . Fermi might?ve asked why aren?t they (ETI) here, but I think the speculation and research since has been on there being broadly no signs of them ? radio, ET landing in the village green, or visible signs of macroengineering. Regards, Dan From bronto at pobox.com Thu Mar 18 02:56:57 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 19:56:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 30 Solutions to the Fermi Paradox In-Reply-To: <003b01d71b99$d039bcb0$70ad3610$@rainier66.com> References: <754D6DF5-927B-487B-B47A-3685B92EDA19@gmail.com> <002401d71b91$5dbaf3a0$1930dae0$@rainier66.com> <003b01d71b99$d039bcb0$70ad3610$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <2b034176-0ade-017f-581d-fd74e08edd1c@pobox.com> On 2021-3-17 18:55, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > I think you are right however: there is some form of radio > communications that we don?t know about yet, which I think > is highly directional collimated EM.? If we are not in the > line of sight, we don?t get the signal. https://www.gregegan.net/INCANDESCENCE/00/Crocodile.html Most of the galaxy has been thoroughly civilized for millions of years, but the Core is a mystery: not only is it quiet, every probe sent to a certain depth is bounced out with its memory wiped. Eventually someone sees ionized fluorine along certain lines, and guesses that these are created by communication lasers. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From pharos at gmail.com Thu Mar 18 09:34:04 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 09:34:04 +0000 Subject: [ExI] 30 Solutions to the Fermi Paradox In-Reply-To: <003b01d71b99$d039bcb0$70ad3610$@rainier66.com> References: <754D6DF5-927B-487B-B47A-3685B92EDA19@gmail.com> <002401d71b91$5dbaf3a0$1930dae0$@rainier66.com> <003b01d71b99$d039bcb0$70ad3610$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Mar 2021 at 02:00, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > Entirely possible Mike. But we are doing constant frequency scanning, so we can detect all the AM and FM signals still zinging around, as well as all the other frequencies. We can tell if a signal is there. This is what SETI-AtHome does: sifts thru enormous piles of data looking for a carrier frequency. > > I think you are right however: there is some form of radio communications that we don?t know about yet, which I think is highly directional collimated EM. If we are not in the line of sight, we don?t get the signal. > > spike > _______________________________________________ The problem again is the overwhelming size of the universe. Even to the nearest stars, communication at the speed of light is years out of date, for further away stars it is hundreds or thousands of years out of date. So not much point really. For this universe we need to magic in instantaneous travel and communication, but rumour has it that if this was possible it might lead to a few problems......... BillK From spike at rainier66.com Thu Mar 18 16:29:09 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 09:29:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] herd immunity? Message-ID: <004a01d71c13$d3515c80$79f41580$@rainier66.com> Early in the pandemic about a year ago, a British doctor was on the Beeb spoke about herd immunity. His overall message was kinda negative: that humanity was unlikely to defeat covid by any other means than a lotta people catching and surviving, resulting in eventual herd immunity. They ripped him a new one! Nearly universal condemnation, and counter suggestions that proper mask wearing and social distancing would suffice, but. over time he is looking more and more right on, way back in March 2020. I don't even know who that was, but if we look at those places which were hit really hard, such as UK, USA, France, Italy, etc, those places are seeing general declines in new case rates (and were even before the vaccine became a major factor.) In the USA for instance, the new case rate is below 20% of its early January peak. It might be wishful thinking on my part, but it appears to me that some places are seeing the impact of significant percentages of their populations having been exposed and were either non-symptomatic or covid presented as an ordinary flu. If so, some places are already showing what looks to me like herd immunity. Hope so. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Mar 18 16:47:58 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 09:47:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] herd immunity? In-Reply-To: <004a01d71c13$d3515c80$79f41580$@rainier66.com> References: <004a01d71c13$d3515c80$79f41580$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Don't forget, significant portions now have had the vaccine. Granted, having the vaccine might count toward herd immunity just like having actually had coronavirus. On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 9:31 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Early in the pandemic about a year ago, a British doctor was on the Beeb > spoke about herd immunity. His overall message was kinda negative: that > humanity was unlikely to defeat covid by any other means than a lotta > people catching and surviving, resulting in eventual herd immunity. They > ripped him a new one! Nearly universal condemnation, and counter > suggestions that proper mask wearing and social distancing would suffice, > but? over time he is looking more and more right on, way back in March 2020. > > > > I don?t even know who that was, but if we look at those places which were > hit really hard, such as UK, USA, France, Italy, etc, those places are > seeing general declines in new case rates (and were even before the vaccine > became a major factor.) In the USA for instance, the new case rate is > below 20% of its early January peak. > > > > It might be wishful thinking on my part, but it appears to me that some > places are seeing the impact of significant percentages of their > populations having been exposed and were either non-symptomatic or covid > presented as an ordinary flu. If so, some places are already showing what > looks to me like herd immunity. Hope so. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Mar 18 16:51:48 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 11:51:48 -0500 Subject: [ExI] herd immunity? In-Reply-To: <004a01d71c13$d3515c80$79f41580$@rainier66.com> References: <004a01d71c13$d3515c80$79f41580$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Are you talking about something measurable? What statistics have to be at what point before we can say the we have herd immunity? bill w On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 11:32 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Early in the pandemic about a year ago, a British doctor was on the Beeb > spoke about herd immunity. His overall message was kinda negative: that > humanity was unlikely to defeat covid by any other means than a lotta > people catching and surviving, resulting in eventual herd immunity. They > ripped him a new one! Nearly universal condemnation, and counter > suggestions that proper mask wearing and social distancing would suffice, > but? over time he is looking more and more right on, way back in March 2020. > > > > I don?t even know who that was, but if we look at those places which were > hit really hard, such as UK, USA, France, Italy, etc, those places are > seeing general declines in new case rates (and were even before the vaccine > became a major factor.) In the USA for instance, the new case rate is > below 20% of its early January peak. > > > > It might be wishful thinking on my part, but it appears to me that some > places are seeing the impact of significant percentages of their > populations having been exposed and were either non-symptomatic or covid > presented as an ordinary flu. If so, some places are already showing what > looks to me like herd immunity. Hope so. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Mar 18 17:23:42 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 10:23:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] herd immunity? In-Reply-To: References: <004a01d71c13$d3515c80$79f41580$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007601d71c1b$71d83b10$5588b130$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2021 9:52 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: Re: [ExI] herd immunity? Are you talking about something measurable? What statistics have to be at what point before we can say the we have herd immunity? bill w Source = https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ Daily new cases on planet: US and UK were two of the outfits that were hit really hard in total cases per million proles. Note that USA is now below 20% of the peak in new cases and Jolly Olde is below 10% of its peak (way to go, limeys! Stay after em, yanks!) If all we see are a minority of cases, and most of them are asymptomatic or mild, then that would explain why these two countries have numbers headed down while the planet?s numbers are heading back up. spike w On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 11:32 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: Early in the pandemic about a year ago, a British doctor was on the Beeb spoke about herd immunity. His overall message was kinda negative: that humanity was unlikely to defeat covid by any other means than a lotta people catching and surviving, resulting in eventual herd immunity. They ripped him a new one! Nearly universal condemnation, and counter suggestions that proper mask wearing and social distancing would suffice, but? over time he is looking more and more right on, way back in March 2020. I don?t even know who that was, but if we look at those places which were hit really hard, such as UK, USA, France, Italy, etc, those places are seeing general declines in new case rates (and were even before the vaccine became a major factor.) In the USA for instance, the new case rate is below 20% of its early January peak. It might be wishful thinking on my part, but it appears to me that some places are seeing the impact of significant percentages of their populations having been exposed and were either non-symptomatic or covid presented as an ordinary flu. If so, some places are already showing what looks to me like herd immunity. Hope so. spike _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image007.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 36768 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image008.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 37701 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image009.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 36486 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sparge at gmail.com Thu Mar 18 17:42:31 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 13:42:31 -0400 Subject: [ExI] herd immunity? In-Reply-To: <004a01d71c13$d3515c80$79f41580$@rainier66.com> References: <004a01d71c13$d3515c80$79f41580$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 12:32 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Early in the pandemic about a year ago, a British doctor was on the Beeb > spoke about herd immunity. His overall message was kinda negative: that > humanity was unlikely to defeat covid by any other means than a lotta > people catching and surviving, resulting in eventual herd immunity. They > ripped him a new one! Nearly universal condemnation, and counter > suggestions that proper mask wearing and social distancing would suffice, > but? over time he is looking more and more right on, way back in March 2020. > https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6e/9b/71/6e9b71a3e2d72dcdfaa7b524fce8cc33.jpg So of course the media rejects uncomfortable truths. Once covid went pandemic, control measures (masks, lockdowns, etc.) were only able to slow it, not stop it. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Mar 18 17:46:22 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 12:46:22 -0500 Subject: [ExI] seat of consciousness? Message-ID: https://neurosciencenews.com/consciousness-back-brain-18049/ bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Mar 18 18:08:25 2021 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 11:08:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] herd immunity? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7A739634-411B-4E7A-8FD5-8A1EBE0023DA@gmail.com> On Mar 18, 2021, at 10:45 AM, Dave Sill via extropy-chat wrote: > So of course the media rejects uncomfortable truths. > > Once covid went pandemic, control measures (masks, lockdowns, etc.) were only able to slow it, not stop it. But wasn?t slowing it the plan, so that the burden on healthcare systems would be drastically lightened and there?d be time to come up vaccines and other therapies? Regards, Dan From sparge at gmail.com Thu Mar 18 18:48:34 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 14:48:34 -0400 Subject: [ExI] herd immunity? In-Reply-To: <7A739634-411B-4E7A-8FD5-8A1EBE0023DA@gmail.com> References: <7A739634-411B-4E7A-8FD5-8A1EBE0023DA@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 2:11 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mar 18, 2021, at 10:45 AM, Dave Sill via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > So of course the media rejects uncomfortable truths. > > > > Once covid went pandemic, control measures (masks, lockdowns, etc.) were > only able to slow it, not stop it. > > But wasn?t slowing it the plan, so that the burden on healthcare systems > would be drastically lightened and there?d be time to come up vaccines and > other therapies? > Whose plan? Governments? I'd like to think so, but I've seen too much in my years to think they do anything just because it's the right thing to do. Epidemiologists pushed for such measures for that reason. Unfortunately, a lot of people didn't get that message or understand it. And then, once we were over the hump and those controls could be relaxed, they weren't, in most places. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Mar 19 04:28:23 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 21:28:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] so what's with the weird collars? Message-ID: <000901d71c78$4d086cd0$e7194670$@rainier66.com> This was published in Feb 1997, their view of 24 years into the future: They didn't get the flat screen monitor, nor did they guess that high quality cameras would be the size of a pea and cost 3 bucks. The whole body spandex notion is cool, but we didn't get that. Perhaps it is for the best in most cases. It isn't clear we really want to know exactly how everyone is shaped. The whole round collar business is common in future vision, but I have never seen it or understood why anyone would want to make their head appear to be on a dinner plate. It did make me stop and think. Students are required to have their cameras on during class, even if they only have the top of their heads showing. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 51214 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bronto at pobox.com Fri Mar 19 05:08:37 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 22:08:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] so what's with the weird collars? In-Reply-To: <000901d71c78$4d086cd0$e7194670$@rainier66.com> References: <000901d71c78$4d086cd0$e7194670$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <72bec9ff-77bf-168b-e983-59298b3a66b9@pobox.com> On 2021-3-18 21:28, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > The whole round collar business is common in future vision, > but I have never seen it or understood why anyone would want > to make their head appear to be on a dinner plate. Perhaps it's inspired by Elizabethan ruffs. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From emerhorne at gmail.com Fri Mar 19 11:05:24 2021 From: emerhorne at gmail.com (Tristan Linck) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 07:05:24 -0400 Subject: [ExI] so what's with the weird collars? In-Reply-To: <72bec9ff-77bf-168b-e983-59298b3a66b9@pobox.com> References: <000901d71c78$4d086cd0$e7194670$@rainier66.com> <72bec9ff-77bf-168b-e983-59298b3a66b9@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 01:12 Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2021-3-18 21:28, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > The whole round collar business is common in future vision, > > but I have never seen it or understood why anyone would want > > to make their head appear to be on a dinner plate. > > Perhaps it's inspired by Elizabethan ruffs. > My working guess is that it is a visual echo of the attachment point for a space helmet, in keeping with the broader space-age esthetic of astronaut-inspired fashion. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Mar 19 14:10:36 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 07:10:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] so what's with the weird collars? In-Reply-To: <72bec9ff-77bf-168b-e983-59298b3a66b9@pobox.com> References: <000901d71c78$4d086cd0$e7194670$@rainier66.com> <72bec9ff-77bf-168b-e983-59298b3a66b9@pobox.com> Message-ID: <004601d71cc9$a2c56a50$e8503ef0$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] so what's with the weird collars? On 2021-3-18 21:28, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > The whole round collar business is common in future vision, but I have > never seen it or understood why anyone would want to make their head > appear to be on a dinner plate. Perhaps it's inspired by Elizabethan ruffs. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org _______________________________________________ ...heeeeehehehehehheeeeeee... I love hanging out on ExI. Collectively you cats know so dang much it is a post graduate education just being with yas. Thanks Anton. spike From spike at rainier66.com Fri Mar 19 14:32:15 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 07:32:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] so what's with the weird collars? In-Reply-To: References: <000901d71c78$4d086cd0$e7194670$@rainier66.com> <72bec9ff-77bf-168b-e983-59298b3a66b9@pobox.com> Message-ID: <005001d71ccc$a90b11a0$fb2134e0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Tristan Linck via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] so what's with the weird collars? On Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 01:12 Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat > wrote: On 2021-3-18 21:28, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > The whole round collar business is common in future vision? Perhaps it's inspired by Elizabethan ruffs. >?My working guess is that it is a visual echo of the attachment point for a space helmet, in keeping with the broader space-age esthetic of astronaut-inspired fashion? That notion is entirely plausible. The future ain?t what it used to be. In the olden days, astronauts were considered futuristic, and many of us had the notion that we would be bouncing around on other planets in the future, which would always mean space helmets, which will always require those round rigid interfaces with the rest of the suit. Well, OK that never happened and we now can reasonably extrapolate that it will not in the reasonably foreseeable, but look at the bright side. The spandex yoga pants which brightened our day (certainly mine) didn?t just go out of style never to be seen again like bell bottoms, but are still with us a decade later. Eventually it will occur to the fashionistas that since some people can really rock the spandex, they can make a spandex jumpsuit and some athletic young beauties will rock the top half as well. On the other hand? this could be a bad thing. Delightful sure, but forget productivity! I will be hanging out in the park taking inventory rather than wasting time with some useful actual work. Hmmmm?. OK, cool. Back to the future! spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 19 15:01:48 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 10:01:48 -0500 Subject: [ExI] so what's with the weird collars? In-Reply-To: <005001d71ccc$a90b11a0$fb2134e0$@rainier66.com> References: <000901d71c78$4d086cd0$e7194670$@rainier66.com> <72bec9ff-77bf-168b-e983-59298b3a66b9@pobox.com> <005001d71ccc$a90b11a0$fb2134e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: They're back! My 13 year old gardeners showed up in bell bottoms and told me it is now a fashion again. I actually have a pair that still fit. bill w On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 9:35 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Tristan Linck via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] so what's with the weird collars? > > > > On Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 01:12 Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > On 2021-3-18 21:28, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > The whole round collar business is common in future vision? > > Perhaps it's inspired by Elizabethan ruffs. > > > > >?My working guess is that it is a visual echo of the attachment point for > a space helmet, in keeping with the broader space-age esthetic of > astronaut-inspired fashion? > > > > > > That notion is entirely plausible. The future ain?t what it used to be. > In the olden days, astronauts were considered futuristic, and many of us > had the notion that we would be bouncing around on other planets in the > future, which would always mean space helmets, which will always require > those round rigid interfaces with the rest of the suit. > > > > Well, OK that never happened and we now can reasonably extrapolate that it > will not in the reasonably foreseeable, but look at the bright side. The > spandex yoga pants which brightened our day (certainly mine) didn?t just go > out of style never to be seen again like bell bottoms, but are still with > us a decade later. Eventually it will occur to the fashionistas that since > some people can really rock the spandex, they can make a spandex jumpsuit > and some athletic young beauties will rock the top half as well. > > > > On the other hand? this could be a bad thing. Delightful sure, but forget > productivity! I will be hanging out in the park taking inventory rather > than wasting time with some useful actual work. Hmmmm?. OK, cool. Back > to the future! > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Mar 19 15:25:58 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 08:25:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] so what's with the weird collars? In-Reply-To: References: <000901d71c78$4d086cd0$e7194670$@rainier66.com> <72bec9ff-77bf-168b-e983-59298b3a66b9@pobox.com> <005001d71ccc$a90b11a0$fb2134e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007e01d71cd4$29e77c80$7db67580$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Friday, March 19, 2021 8:02 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: Re: [ExI] so what's with the weird collars? >?They're back! My 13 year old gardeners showed up in bell bottoms and told me it is now a fashion again. I actually have a pair that still fit. bill w I do too! I don?t know how or why I still have those but I have a pair of bell bottom Levis from the late 70s I wore in early college years. I have to suck it in a bit, for I have gained over 70? well nearly 80 ounces since those days. I still want to see full-body spandex suits. My joy will be complete. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 19 15:47:52 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 10:47:52 -0500 Subject: [ExI] so what's with the weird collars? In-Reply-To: <007e01d71cd4$29e77c80$7db67580$@rainier66.com> References: <000901d71c78$4d086cd0$e7194670$@rainier66.com> <72bec9ff-77bf-168b-e983-59298b3a66b9@pobox.com> <005001d71ccc$a90b11a0$fb2134e0$@rainier66.com> <007e01d71cd4$29e77c80$7db67580$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I still want to see full-body spandex suits. My joy will be complete. spike That's about the last thing in the world I want to see: You in spandex. Please alert us beforehand if you are going to share that image. bill w On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 10:29 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Friday, March 19, 2021 8:02 AM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] so what's with the weird collars? > > > > >?They're back! My 13 year old gardeners showed up in bell bottoms and > told me it is now a fashion again. I actually have a pair that still fit. > bill w > > > > > > I do too! I don?t know how or why I still have those but I have a pair of > bell bottom Levis from the late 70s I wore in early college years. I have > to suck it in a bit, for I have gained over 70? well nearly 80 ounces since > those days. > > > > I still want to see full-body spandex suits. My joy will be complete. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Mar 19 16:05:37 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 09:05:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] so what's with the weird collars? In-Reply-To: References: <000901d71c78$4d086cd0$e7194670$@rainier66.com> <72bec9ff-77bf-168b-e983-59298b3a66b9@pobox.com> <005001d71ccc$a90b11a0$fb2134e0$@rainier66.com> <007e01d71cd4$29e77c80$7db67580$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00af01d71cd9$b3c2d490$1b487db0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Friday, March 19, 2021 8:48 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: Re: [ExI] so what's with the weird collars? I still want to see full-body spandex suits. My joy will be complete. spike That's about the last thing in the world I want to see: You in spandex. Please alert us beforehand if you are going to share that image. bill w Ja, I didn?t say I was going to don such an absurd outfit. I was just hoping the young and absurd would do so. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Fri Mar 19 16:56:56 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 09:56:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] so what's with the weird collars? In-Reply-To: <005001d71ccc$a90b11a0$fb2134e0$@rainier66.com> References: <000901d71c78$4d086cd0$e7194670$@rainier66.com> <72bec9ff-77bf-168b-e983-59298b3a66b9@pobox.com> <005001d71ccc$a90b11a0$fb2134e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On 2021-3-19 07:32, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > Eventually it will occur to the fashionistas that since some people > can really rock the spandex, they can make a spandex jumpsuit and > some athletic young beauties will rock the top half as well. There was a time in (my) hi-skool when some of the girls wore leotard and jeans, so there's the complement? I often (especially while waiting for sleep) think about Upload life. If you live in a simulation, and can control your appearance arbitrarily, what conventions arise? I imagine there's a setting where "superhero skins" are customary, each unique. And that, coupled with an older interest of mine, raises the question of the most natural way to wrap a coat-of-arms around a body. (I think ?Understanding Comics? contains the observation that superhero costumes are quasi heraldic, because they have the same function of quick recognition in often confusing settings.) -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 19 17:02:16 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 12:02:16 -0500 Subject: [ExI] so what's with the weird collars? In-Reply-To: <00af01d71cd9$b3c2d490$1b487db0$@rainier66.com> References: <000901d71c78$4d086cd0$e7194670$@rainier66.com> <72bec9ff-77bf-168b-e983-59298b3a66b9@pobox.com> <005001d71ccc$a90b11a0$fb2134e0$@rainier66.com> <007e01d71cd4$29e77c80$7db67580$@rainier66.com> <00af01d71cd9$b3c2d490$1b487db0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Well Spike, at least wear the bell bottoms. Let us know the outcome from other people's reactions. I'll wear mine. bill w On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 11:08 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Friday, March 19, 2021 8:48 AM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] so what's with the weird collars? > > > > I still want to see full-body spandex suits. My joy will be complete. > > > > spike That's about the last thing in the world I want to see: You in > spandex. Please alert us beforehand if you are going to share that image. > bill w > > > > Ja, I didn?t say I was going to don such an absurd outfit. I was just > hoping the young and absurd would do so. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Mar 19 17:50:59 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 17:50:59 +0000 Subject: [ExI] so what's with the weird collars? In-Reply-To: <004601d71cc9$a2c56a50$e8503ef0$@rainier66.com> References: <000901d71c78$4d086cd0$e7194670$@rainier66.com> <72bec9ff-77bf-168b-e983-59298b3a66b9@pobox.com> <004601d71cc9$a2c56a50$e8503ef0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Mar 2021 at 14:15, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ...> On Behalf Of Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat > Perhaps it's inspired by Elizabethan ruffs. > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > _______________________________________________ > > I love hanging out on ExI. Collectively you cats know so dang much it is a > post graduate education just being with yas. > > Thanks Anton. > > spike > _______________________________________________ I think neck ruffs are coming back into fashion. The modern version can be pulled up to become a fashionable face mask when required. BillK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: neck.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 81548 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 19 18:33:26 2021 From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 18:33:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] so what's with the weird collars? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1984799554.89612.1616178806801@mail.yahoo.com> Spike said: Well, OK that never happened and we now can reasonably extrapolate that it will not in the reasonably foreseeable, but look at the bright side.? The spandex yoga pants which brightened our day (certainly mine) didn?t just go out of style never to be seen again like bell bottoms, but are still with us a decade later.? Eventually it will occur to the fashionistas that since some people can really rock the spandex, they can make a spandex jumpsuit and some athletic young beauties will rock the top half as well. On the other hand? this could be a bad thing.? Delightful sure, but forget productivity!? I will be hanging out in the park taking inventory rather than wasting time with some useful actual work.? Hmmmm?. OK, cool.? Back to the future! ======================Spike, I'm pretty sure this already exists - if you use a popular internet search engine and look for "athleisure wear" there's a whole trend of wearing stretchy gym clothes as normal leisurewear. Let me see...."athleisure wear one-piece" - yes! Sleeveless jumpsuits in stretchy fabric were apparently the next big thing a few months ago. If your wife catches you looking at images of this online, just say you're trying to keep up with fashion when you want to go out and exercise. Tom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 19 19:37:34 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:37:34 -0500 Subject: [ExI] so what's with the weird collars? In-Reply-To: <1984799554.89612.1616178806801@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1984799554.89612.1616178806801@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Some of you will remember miniskirts. These were dandy until middle-aged women thought they would look in one - WRONG!!! I see spandex bottoms in Walmart every time I go. Why do obese women wear them? They don't make regular clothes in those sizes, is my guess. bill w On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 1:36 PM Tom Nowell via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Spike said: > > > Well, OK that never happened and we now can reasonably extrapolate that it > will not in the reasonably foreseeable, but look at the bright side. The > spandex yoga pants which brightened our day (certainly mine) didn?t just go > out of style never to be seen again like bell bottoms, but are still with > us a decade later. Eventually it will occur to the fashionistas that since > some people can really rock the spandex, they can make a spandex jumpsuit > and some athletic young beauties will rock the top half as well. > > > > On the other hand? this could be a bad thing. Delightful sure, but forget > productivity! I will be hanging out in the park taking inventory rather > than wasting time with some useful actual work. Hmmmm?. OK, cool. Back to > the future! > > ====================== > Spike, I'm pretty sure this already exists - if you use a popular internet > search engine and look for "athleisure wear" there's a whole trend of > wearing stretchy gym clothes as normal leisurewear. Let me > see...."athleisure wear one-piece" - yes! Sleeveless jumpsuits in stretchy > fabric were apparently the next big thing a few months ago. If your wife > catches you looking at images of this online, just say you're trying to > keep up with fashion when you want to go out and exercise. > > Tom > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Mar 19 20:01:49 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 13:01:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] so what's with the weird collars? In-Reply-To: <1984799554.89612.1616178806801@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1984799554.89612.1616178806801@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005b01d71cfa$b39b9a80$1ad2cf80$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Tom Nowell via extropy-chat ====================== >?Spike, I'm pretty sure this already exists ? No doubt Tom. I never claimed to be hip. {8^D >? if you use a popular internet search engine and look for "athleisure wear" there's a whole trend of wearing stretchy gym clothes as normal leisurewear? I have heard of that internet search engine business. Were I to get using it, surely waste my life, gazing at the beauties displaying their wares. I have heard such things are to be found there. Oh is this a great time to be living or what? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 20 14:21:54 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 07:21:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] astonishing Message-ID: <005101d71d94$60fa2310$22ee6930$@rainier66.com> Study this photo and tell me what you see please. The explanation is wicked cool. This was taken on a camping trip last weekend at a National Park and is a 30 second duration. OK everyone saw Orion up there on top right quadrant of the photo. Our eyes are drawn to the cosmos, but consider the visual clutter at the bottom of the photo, which I needed to explain to my scouts why the stars in the photo appeared streaky, all of them. The structure is a public restroom but it doesn't have windows. So that vertical light artifact on the left end of the streak is caused by reflected light from a door opening and closing with a light on inside the restroom. The roof of a foreground car eclipses part of the undulating light path, which is caused by a dual LED headlamp worn by a walking person. The orange glow on the building is stray light perhaps from the headlamp. There is another feature on the right end of the undulating streak which I think is stray light reflecting off of a person entering the restroom from a door on the other side of the restroom. The undulating streak is interrupted by being eclipsed by a van, also in the foreground so it isn't as close but allows you to get a scale and helps show the undulations are not steps. They are too far apart for that. Those are caused by the headlamp wearer looking down at the path and up ahead (I think that would explain that sinusoid and also why there are only about 5 or 6 total undulations in 30 seconds. On the right end of that light streak the light path diverges into two separate streaks caused by (I think) the dual LEDs in the headlamp. OK then, now we are ready to talk about the stars. When we zoomed in on the photo, the stars were all streaks. I used this photo to explain to the scouts why this is: the earth rotates while the camera is gathering light. They weren't sure they believed it, so I had them figure out how many degrees the earth rotates in an hour: 360 degrees divided by 24 is 15 degrees an hour. OK how much per minute? The sharp ones could divide in their heads, 15 over 60 is quarter of a degree a minute. OK how much in 30 seconds? Eighth of a degree. OK then, those stars dang sure would show as streaks, just as one guy with a headlamp (who you can't see because he didn't stand still long enough) made the sinusoidal streak. There is a fun follow up post coming soon but I gotta run. More later, spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 27613 bytes Desc: not available URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Mar 20 15:51:23 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 23:51:23 +0800 Subject: [ExI] amazing scifi books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am so painfully behind in my science fiction reading. My latest read has been "The Dying Earth," by Jack Vance. It turned out to essentially be planetary romance, but well written and fun. I have already read the The Book of the New Sun series by Gene Wolfe. I love novels where humanity has been around for eons more than we presently have been, and the history seems almost limitless. John On Thu, Mar 11, 2021 at 2:59 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Hugo winner: A Memory Called Empire; second book: A Desolation Called > Peace. > > I have been reading scifi since 1950 or so, and these two books will make > my top ten easily. Most nuanced description of aliens and most different > aliens I have encountered in my reading . > > Mostly female cast (author is lesbian and so are some of the characters - > doesn't put me off a bit). > > > https://smile.amazon.com/Memory-Called-Empire-Teixcalaan/dp/1250186447/ref=sr_1_1 > ? > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Mar 20 15:54:43 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 23:54:43 +0800 Subject: [ExI] a little fun In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "HUMANS AND DOLPHIN ARE THE ONLY SPECIES THAT HAVE SEX FOR PLEASURE (CAN SEE FLIPPER SMILING NOW, BUT HOW DO THEY KNOW THIS?)" I thought chimps also had sex for pleasure. On Fri, Feb 26, 2021 at 8:26 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > from bill w > > > PROOF THAT SOME PEOPLE WILL BELIEVE ANYTHING AND THE WORLD IS NUTS: > > IN LEBANON MEN ARE LEGALLY ALLOWED TO HAVE SEX WITH ANIMALS, BUT THE > ANIMALS MUST BE FEMALE. SEX WITH A MALE ANIMAL IS PUNISHABLE BY DEATH. > > IN BAHRAIN, A MALE DOCTOR MAY LEGALLY EXAMINE A WOMAN'S GENITALS, BUT IS > PROHIBITED FROM LOOKING DIRECTLY AT THEM, SO HE MUST USE A MIRROR. > > MUSLIMS ARE BANNED FROM LOOKING AT THE GENITALS OF A CORPSE. IT APPLIES > ALSO TO UNDERTAKERS. THE GENITALS MUST BE COVERED BY A BRICK OR PIECE OF > WOOD (BRICK?) > > THE PENALTY FOR MASTURBATION IN INDONESIA IS DEATH BY DECAPITATION (WORSE > THAN GOING BLIND) > > THERE ARE MEN IN GUAM WHOSE FULL-TIME JOB IS TO TRAVEL THE COUNTRY SIDE > AND DEFLOWER YOUNG VIRGINS, WHO PAY THEM FOR THE PRIVILEGE OF HAVING SEX > FOR THE FIRST TIME. UNDER GUAM LAW, IT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN FOR VIRGINS > TO MARRY. (WONDER WHAT THE APPLICANT'S QUALIFICATIONS ARE FOR THIS JOB?) > > TOPLESS SALESWOMEN ARE LEGAL IN LIVERPOOL, ENGLAND BUT ONLY IN TROPICAL > FISH STORES. > > IN CALI, COLUMBIA, A WOMAN MAY ONLY HAVE SEX WITH HER HUSBAND AND THE > FIRST TIME THIS HAPPENS HER MOTHER MUST BE IN THE ROOM TO WITNESS THE ACT. > (MEN: COULD YOU DO THIS?) > > IN SANTA CRUZ, BOLIVIA, IT IS ILLEGAL FOR MAN TO HAVE SEX WITH A WOMAN AND > HER DAUGHTER AT THE SAME TIME. (MUST HAVE BEEN A BIG PROBLEM) > > IN MARYLAND IT IS ILLEGAL TO SELL CONDOMS FROM VENDING MACHINES WITH ONE > EXCEPTION: THEY MAY BE DISPENSED FROM A VENDING MACHINE ON 'IN PLACES > WHERE ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES ARE SOLD FOR CONSUMPTION ON THE PREMISES' > > TRIVIA: > > BANGING YOUR HEAD AGAINST THE WALL USES 150 CALORIES AN HOUR. > > HUMANS AND DOLPHIN ARE THE ONLY SPECIES THAT HAVE SEX FOR PLEASURE (CAN > SEE FLIPPER SMILING NOW, BUT HOW DO THEY KNOW THIS?) > > AN ANT CAN LIFT 50 TIMES ITS WEIGHT, PULL 30 TIMES ITS WEIGHT (SEEMS > BACKWARDS, EH?) AND ALWAYS FALLS OVER ON ITS RIGHT SIDE WHEN DRUNK (MUST > HAVE BEEN A GOVERNMENT STUDY) > > BUTTERFLIES TASTE WITH THEIR FEET > > AN OSTRICH'S EYE IS BIGGER THAN ITS BRAIN. > > STARFISH DON'T HAVE BRAINS, SO THIS IS A NEW WAY TO CUSS SOMEONE 'HEY, > STARFISH' > > TURTLES CAN BREATHE THROUGH THEIR BUTTS (AND YOU THINK YOU HAVE BAD > BREATH?) > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Mar 20 16:07:42 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 00:07:42 +0800 Subject: [ExI] 30 Solutions to the Fermi Paradox In-Reply-To: References: <754D6DF5-927B-487B-B47A-3685B92EDA19@gmail.com> <002401d71b91$5dbaf3a0$1930dae0$@rainier66.com> <003b01d71b99$d039bcb0$70ad3610$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: My belief is that the Earth is known to the advanced alien races out there, and that we are essentially a designated nature preserve until we have the maturity and technology to be seen as a worthy spacefaring race. I suspect they have a Star Trek style Prime Directive in place that has protected us so far. But if we continue to misbehave, that at a certain point, we may get a visit from their version of Klaatu and Gort. John On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 5:38 PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, 18 Mar 2021 at 02:00, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > Entirely possible Mike. But we are doing constant frequency scanning, > so we can detect all the AM and FM signals still zinging around, as well as > all the other frequencies. We can tell if a signal is there. This is what > SETI-AtHome does: sifts thru enormous piles of data looking for a carrier > frequency. > > > > I think you are right however: there is some form of radio > communications that we don?t know about yet, which I think is highly > directional collimated EM. If we are not in the line of sight, we don?t > get the signal. > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > > > The problem again is the overwhelming size of the universe. Even to > the nearest stars, communication at the speed of light is years out of > date, for further away stars it is hundreds or thousands of years out > of date. So not much point really. > > For this universe we need to magic in instantaneous travel and > communication, but rumour has it that if this was possible it might > lead to a few problems......... > > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Sat Mar 20 16:14:38 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 09:14:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] amazing scifi books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7affaa16-8e2f-6fdf-756c-7258b520404e@pobox.com> On 2021-3-20 08:51, John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote: > I love novels where humanity has been around for eons more than we > presently have been, and the history seems almost limitless. I especially like settings that are too big to know, as in ?A Fire upon the Deep? (there are bazillions of cultures on the Net, you can't even know how many). -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From atymes at gmail.com Sat Mar 20 17:03:36 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 10:03:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] astonishing In-Reply-To: <005101d71d94$60fa2310$22ee6930$@rainier66.com> References: <005101d71d94$60fa2310$22ee6930$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Huh, and here I thought you were going to talk about the tree on the left, and ignore all that visual clutter. On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 7:24 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > Study this photo and tell me what you see please. > > > > > > > > The explanation is wicked cool. > > > > This was taken on a camping trip last weekend at a National Park and is a > 30 second duration. > > > > OK everyone saw Orion up there on top right quadrant of the photo. > > > > Our eyes are drawn to the cosmos, but consider the visual clutter at the > bottom of the photo, which I needed to explain to my scouts why the stars > in the photo appeared streaky, all of them. The structure is a public > restroom but it doesn?t have windows. So that vertical light artifact on > the left end of the streak is caused by reflected light from a door opening > and closing with a light on inside the restroom. > > > > The roof of a foreground car eclipses part of the undulating light path, > which is caused by a dual LED headlamp worn by a walking person. The > orange glow on the building is stray light perhaps from the headlamp. > There is another feature on the right end of the undulating streak which I > think is stray light reflecting off of a person entering the restroom from > a door on the other side of the restroom. > > > > The undulating streak is interrupted by being eclipsed by a van, also in > the foreground so it isn?t as close but allows you to get a scale and helps > show the undulations are not steps. They are too far apart for that. > Those are caused by the headlamp wearer looking down at the path and up > ahead (I think that would explain that sinusoid and also why there are only > about 5 or 6 total undulations in 30 seconds. > > > > On the right end of that light streak the light path diverges into two > separate streaks caused by (I think) the dual LEDs in the headlamp. > > > > OK then, now we are ready to talk about the stars. When we zoomed in on > the photo, the stars were all streaks. I used this photo to explain to the > scouts why this is: the earth rotates while the camera is gathering light. > They weren?t sure they believed it, so I had them figure out how many > degrees the earth rotates in an hour: 360 degrees divided by 24 is 15 > degrees an hour. OK how much per minute? The sharp ones could divide in > their heads, 15 over 60 is quarter of a degree a minute. OK how much in 30 > seconds? Eighth of a degree. OK then, those stars dang sure would show as > streaks, just as one guy with a headlamp (who you can?t see because he > didn?t stand still long enough) made the sinusoidal streak. > > > > There is a fun follow up post coming soon but I gotta run. More later, > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 27613 bytes Desc: not available URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 20 17:09:30 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 12:09:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] animal cognition and def. of intelligence Message-ID: >From "Are We Smart Enough to Know How Smart Animals Are?" by Frans de Waal. 'cognition relates to the kind of information an organism gathers and how it processes and applies this information' Intelligence is how well it does this. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 20 17:11:14 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 12:11:14 -0500 Subject: [ExI] a little fun In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am towards the first in the de Waal book I quoted in my other email of today, but I am sure that it will get to sex. Of all the primates the bonobos are the ones obsessed with sex. More later if desired. bill w On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 10:58 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > "HUMANS AND DOLPHIN ARE THE ONLY SPECIES THAT HAVE SEX FOR PLEASURE (CAN > SEE FLIPPER SMILING NOW, BUT HOW DO THEY KNOW THIS?)" > > I thought chimps also had sex for pleasure. > > On Fri, Feb 26, 2021 at 8:26 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> from bill w >> >> >> PROOF THAT SOME PEOPLE WILL BELIEVE ANYTHING AND THE WORLD IS NUTS: >> >> IN LEBANON MEN ARE LEGALLY ALLOWED TO HAVE SEX WITH ANIMALS, BUT THE >> ANIMALS MUST BE FEMALE. SEX WITH A MALE ANIMAL IS PUNISHABLE BY DEATH. >> >> IN BAHRAIN, A MALE DOCTOR MAY LEGALLY EXAMINE A WOMAN'S GENITALS, BUT IS >> PROHIBITED FROM LOOKING DIRECTLY AT THEM, SO HE MUST USE A MIRROR. >> >> MUSLIMS ARE BANNED FROM LOOKING AT THE GENITALS OF A CORPSE. IT APPLIES >> ALSO TO UNDERTAKERS. THE GENITALS MUST BE COVERED BY A BRICK OR PIECE OF >> WOOD (BRICK?) >> >> THE PENALTY FOR MASTURBATION IN INDONESIA IS DEATH BY DECAPITATION (WORSE >> THAN GOING BLIND) >> >> THERE ARE MEN IN GUAM WHOSE FULL-TIME JOB IS TO TRAVEL THE COUNTRY SIDE >> AND DEFLOWER YOUNG VIRGINS, WHO PAY THEM FOR THE PRIVILEGE OF HAVING SEX >> FOR THE FIRST TIME. UNDER GUAM LAW, IT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN FOR VIRGINS >> TO MARRY. (WONDER WHAT THE APPLICANT'S QUALIFICATIONS ARE FOR THIS JOB?) >> >> TOPLESS SALESWOMEN ARE LEGAL IN LIVERPOOL, ENGLAND BUT ONLY IN TROPICAL >> FISH STORES. >> >> IN CALI, COLUMBIA, A WOMAN MAY ONLY HAVE SEX WITH HER HUSBAND AND THE >> FIRST TIME THIS HAPPENS HER MOTHER MUST BE IN THE ROOM TO WITNESS THE ACT. >> (MEN: COULD YOU DO THIS?) >> >> IN SANTA CRUZ, BOLIVIA, IT IS ILLEGAL FOR MAN TO HAVE SEX WITH A WOMAN >> AND HER DAUGHTER AT THE SAME TIME. (MUST HAVE BEEN A BIG PROBLEM) >> >> IN MARYLAND IT IS ILLEGAL TO SELL CONDOMS FROM VENDING MACHINES WITH ONE >> EXCEPTION: THEY MAY BE DISPENSED FROM A VENDING MACHINE ON 'IN PLACES >> WHERE ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES ARE SOLD FOR CONSUMPTION ON THE PREMISES' >> >> TRIVIA: >> >> BANGING YOUR HEAD AGAINST THE WALL USES 150 CALORIES AN HOUR. >> >> HUMANS AND DOLPHIN ARE THE ONLY SPECIES THAT HAVE SEX FOR PLEASURE (CAN >> SEE FLIPPER SMILING NOW, BUT HOW DO THEY KNOW THIS?) >> >> AN ANT CAN LIFT 50 TIMES ITS WEIGHT, PULL 30 TIMES ITS WEIGHT (SEEMS >> BACKWARDS, EH?) AND ALWAYS FALLS OVER ON ITS RIGHT SIDE WHEN DRUNK (MUST >> HAVE BEEN A GOVERNMENT STUDY) >> >> BUTTERFLIES TASTE WITH THEIR FEET >> >> AN OSTRICH'S EYE IS BIGGER THAN ITS BRAIN. >> >> STARFISH DON'T HAVE BRAINS, SO THIS IS A NEW WAY TO CUSS SOMEONE 'HEY, >> STARFISH' >> >> TURTLES CAN BREATHE THROUGH THEIR BUTTS (AND YOU THINK YOU HAVE BAD >> BREATH?) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat Mar 20 17:20:19 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 10:20:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 30 Solutions to the Fermi Paradox In-Reply-To: References: <754D6DF5-927B-487B-B47A-3685B92EDA19@gmail.com> <002401d71b91$5dbaf3a0$1930dae0$@rainier66.com> <003b01d71b99$d039bcb0$70ad3610$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: My take: most likely, humans are the first technological species in our galaxy. Someone has to be the first (if there are any). On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 9:05 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > My belief is that the Earth is known to the advanced alien races out > there, and that we are essentially a designated nature preserve until we > have the maturity and technology to be seen as a worthy spacefaring race. I > suspect they have a Star Trek style Prime Directive in place that has > protected us so far. But if we continue to misbehave, that at a certain > point, we may get a visit from their version of Klaatu and Gort. > > John > > On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 5:38 PM BillK via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Thu, 18 Mar 2021 at 02:00, spike jones via extropy-chat >> wrote: >> > >> > Entirely possible Mike. But we are doing constant frequency scanning, >> so we can detect all the AM and FM signals still zinging around, as well as >> all the other frequencies. We can tell if a signal is there. This is what >> SETI-AtHome does: sifts thru enormous piles of data looking for a carrier >> frequency. >> > >> > I think you are right however: there is some form of radio >> communications that we don?t know about yet, which I think is highly >> directional collimated EM. If we are not in the line of sight, we don?t >> get the signal. >> > >> > spike >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> >> The problem again is the overwhelming size of the universe. Even to >> the nearest stars, communication at the speed of light is years out of >> date, for further away stars it is hundreds or thousands of years out >> of date. So not much point really. >> >> For this universe we need to magic in instantaneous travel and >> communication, but rumour has it that if this was possible it might >> lead to a few problems......... >> >> >> BillK >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 20 17:42:53 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 10:42:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] astonishing In-Reply-To: References: <005101d71d94$60fa2310$22ee6930$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004a01d71db0$752f9060$5f8eb120$@rainier66.com> >>?There is a fun follow up post coming soon but I gotta run. More later? spike From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] astonishing >?Huh, and here I thought you were going to talk about the tree on the left, and ignore all that visual clutter. >?There is a fun follow up post coming soon but I gotta run. More later, >?spike Well OK I can go there too: I thought it was cool that some starlight punches through the gaps in the branches, as sunlight when it is back there. Over 30 yrs ago, when I was younger than I am now, I was in an astronomy club in the southern California desert. In about 1988 the first digital astronomy cameras started showing up, but they needed dry ice cooling and the images they made weren?t really worth the considerable price. I moved to the Bay area in 1989 and became friends with a guy was the most one-dimensional person, with tight focus on digital astronomy. Smaaaart as a whip, single, kind of a loner, didn?t talk much, unless you got him on that topic. Wayne was a lotta fun if you could engage him and follow even a bit of what he said about that topic. I learned so much. About that time, there was a new product the magazines were selling like it was the greatest invention since sex: a low cost digital astrophotometry setup which could be cooled with water ice mixed with rock salt. Cool no more dry ice. Still a lotta bother but less bother and expense than dry ice: you could have everything you needed right at home. Not only that, the images were high resolution! 1024 by 1024 pixels x 8 bits!, astonishing! Wayne bought one, which was about 600 some bucks at the time, play money for him but not for me at the time (he was a ranking Lockheed engineer, technical consultant, single, no children, no expensive habits (other than the astronomy habit.)) We took it out and fooled with it in the back parking lot, then later took it around where we could block the city lights behind Mount Trashmore (a now-defunct garbage dump between Sunnyvale and the bay.) That worked better, but we were off pavement there, so the water dripping off the salt-ice made a muddy mess, which we tracked home. But Wayne kept going and using it. These images were an astonishing MEGABYTE each. I was an ordinary prole with a 40 MB hard disk, but Wayne had money, so he had an awesome 80 MB external drive on a portable computer. Oh he was cool. It was the nerd?s version of a hotrod in those days. Welllll? Wayne?s drive could hold about 70 images if he cleared off all the previous images onto 1.4 MB floppies (one image per disk (astrophotometry images can?t be compressed without losing the information you went out there to find)) He could fill that enormous hard drive in a few hours (each exposure took about four minutes) then go home and do his analysis for a several days, then go back out. That megabyte salt-ice imager looked cool and sexy at the time but I chose to not buy one. I had a tracker and a scope (200 mm catadioptric) but didn?t buy that camera or the 80 MB drive, thinking they might go thru the same dramatic improvement in performance as computers had been doing for the past several years (that part was right, they did.) Apologies, must interrupt once again, reality is bugging me to take care of it. Adrian you are right: that is a cool tree there in the image. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sat Mar 20 21:01:03 2021 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 14:01:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 30 Solutions to the Fermi Paradox In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <61AC89AB-A90E-4951-A691-E7FE23BB8D43@gmail.com> On Mar 20, 2021, at 10:28 AM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > My take: most likely, humans are the first technological species in our galaxy. Someone has to be the first (if there are any). I agree that someone has to be first, though it leads to asking why others didn?t get here first. The copernican principle (there?s nothing special about us, here and now, with regard to science) seems a good default position and requires (IMO) some explanation to set aside. That said, all the good observational evidence seems to lead to your conclusion. But that doesn?t explain why this is so. Regards, Dan From atymes at gmail.com Sat Mar 20 21:48:09 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 14:48:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 30 Solutions to the Fermi Paradox In-Reply-To: <61AC89AB-A90E-4951-A691-E7FE23BB8D43@gmail.com> References: <61AC89AB-A90E-4951-A691-E7FE23BB8D43@gmail.com> Message-ID: > why others didn?t get here first Because they didn't. Some facts are just facts, with no narrative, story, or plot. Whoever got the earliest start, got the earliest start. On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 2:03 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mar 20, 2021, at 10:28 AM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > My take: most likely, humans are the first technological species in our > galaxy. Someone has to be the first (if there are any). > > I agree that someone has to be first, though it leads to asking why others > didn?t get here first. The copernican principle (there?s nothing special > about us, here and now, with regard to science) seems a good default > position and requires (IMO) some explanation to set aside. > > That said, all the good observational evidence seems to lead to your > conclusion. But that doesn?t explain why this is so. > > Regards, > > Dan > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Mar 20 22:05:53 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 22:05:53 +0000 Subject: [ExI] 30 Solutions to the Fermi Paradox In-Reply-To: <61AC89AB-A90E-4951-A691-E7FE23BB8D43@gmail.com> References: <61AC89AB-A90E-4951-A691-E7FE23BB8D43@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Mar 2021 at 21:05, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: > > I agree that someone has to be first, though it leads to asking why others didn?t get here first. The copernican principle (there?s nothing special about us, here and now, with regard to science) seems a good default position and requires (IMO) some explanation to set aside. > > That said, all the good observational evidence seems to lead to your conclusion. But that doesn?t explain why this is so. > > Regards, Dan > _______________________________________________ Our galaxy is about 200,000 light years in diameter, so any other tech civilisation is likely to be thousands of light years away. We won't be holding a conversation with them. This would be obvious to every tech civilisation, so they won't waste energy broadcasting. Communication will be direct beamed local transmissions. Even just when communicating with Mars rovers, transmission time takes between 4 and 20 minutes, depending on the planets orbital position. Double that to get a response back. Alpha Centauri, our nearest star system, has a 4.3 year transmission time. So star systems have to be pretty well self-sufficient. BillK From bronto at pobox.com Sat Mar 20 21:11:04 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 14:11:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] a little fun In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8b2710ee-2271-9d0a-2245-9bcab307e230@pobox.com> On 2021-2-25 16:23, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > PROOF THAT SOME PEOPLE WILL BELIEVE ANYTHING AND THE WORLD IS NUTS: Yes, some will believe all these stories -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 21 00:47:54 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 17:47:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] astonishing In-Reply-To: <004a01d71db0$752f9060$5f8eb120$@rainier66.com> References: <005101d71d94$60fa2310$22ee6930$@rainier66.com> <004a01d71db0$752f9060$5f8eb120$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008e01d71deb$d4e8b6e0$7eba24a0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Subject: RE: [ExI] astonishing >?That megabyte salt-ice imager looked cool and sexy at the time but I chose to not buy one. I had a tracker and a scope (200 mm catadioptric) but didn?t buy that camera or the 80 MB drive, thinking they might go thru the same dramatic improvement in performance as computers had been doing for the past several years (that part was right, they did.) >?Apologies, must interrupt once again, reality is bugging me to take care of it. spike OK. My friend Wayne was fooling with photometry imaging with water-ice rock salt cooling along with the tracker, scope and drive capable of storing about 75 images, all of it together cost about 4000 bucks, which would get you a new low-end car in those days. Suddenly, 30 years went by. We figured out how to do some things better. Now, we are able to make as many digital images as we want, far far superior to anything we could do back then regardless of how much money we had. These cameras which do this are about the size of a pea (!), and can be produced in mass quantities for a cost of about 3 dollars each (!) The phone (!) on which the data is stored (!) holds so many images, we don?t even bother going back thru and erasing old ones. A software package eliminates the need for a tracker (itself over a thousand dollar item if you get a good quiet one.) The software somehow figures out what images are stars, are streaking over the exposure time and will undo that effect. That software is free. With that setup we can make better images than anything we could even buy back in the olden days. Is this a great time to be alive or what? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sun Mar 21 01:03:35 2021 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 18:03:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 30 Solutions to the Fermi Paradox In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <140C9E59-DFC9-4578-BCBC-2F7CB4605633@gmail.com> On Mar 20, 2021, at 3:09 PM, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > > ?On Sat, 20 Mar 2021 at 21:05, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat > wrote: >> >> I agree that someone has to be first, though it leads to asking why others didn?t get here first. The copernican principle (there?s nothing special about us, here and now, with regard to science) seems a good default position and requires (IMO) some explanation to set aside. >> >> That said, all the good observational evidence seems to lead to your conclusion. But that doesn?t explain why this is so. > > Our galaxy is about 200,000 light years in diameter, so any other tech > civilisation is likely to be thousands of light years away. We won't > be holding a conversation with them. > > This would be obvious to every tech civilisation, so they won't waste > energy broadcasting. Communication will be direct beamed local > transmissions. Even just when communicating with Mars rovers, transmission > time takes between 4 and 20 minutes, depending on the planets orbital > position. Double that to get a response back. > > Alpha Centauri, our nearest star system, has a 4.3 year transmission > time. So star systems have to be pretty well self-sufficient. This isn?t about communication per se, especially not two way communication over the short term, but just mere detection. Why aren?t there artifacts of other technological civilizations? Also, even given the galaxy?s size compared to current human efforts at travel and exploration and the near term future extremely limited prospects for settlement off world, it seems more a matter of time and numbers again. Given enough time and enough civilizations, one would expect there to be some signs. Since there aren?t, it seems there aren?t any others or very few or none have had enough time. That seems paradoxical given the usual starting assumptions. (And those assumptions don?t seem unreasonable.) The usual discussion about this stuff proceeds along the lines of there being done filter that makes spacefaring civilizations very unlikely ? like life is really hard to get in the first place or civilizations tend to self-destruct when they inevitably invent X. None of these seems satisfying for most. Regards, Dan From danust2012 at gmail.com Sun Mar 21 02:25:03 2021 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 19:25:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 30 Solutions to the Fermi Paradox In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FFFD9DC-D301-4106-9EE0-21482F5D3AB5@gmail.com> On Mar 20, 2021, at 2:51 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > why others didn?t get here first > > Because they didn't. Some facts are just facts, with no narrative, story, or plot. Whoever got the earliest start, got the earliest start. Before embracing something as a brute fact, though, one should consider whether there is some explanation for it. In fact, much of science (and philosophy generally) proceeds this way: questioning what?s considered a brute fact until it yields answers. Regards, Dan From bronto at pobox.com Sun Mar 21 03:02:21 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 20:02:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 30 Solutions to the Fermi Paradox In-Reply-To: References: <61AC89AB-A90E-4951-A691-E7FE23BB8D43@gmail.com> Message-ID: <23df5e89-1039-4eaa-5d1e-f63bd1d7298a@pobox.com> On 2021-3-20 15:05, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > Our galaxy is about 200,000 light years in diameter, so any other tech > civilisation is likely to be thousands of light years away. We won't > be holding a conversation with them. We can exchange music and theorems, though. "Here's what we know ..." (millennia later) "Hey thanks, we missed this bit." -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From avant at sollegro.com Sun Mar 21 00:45:39 2021 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 17:45:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] My conversation with the Open AI GPT3 statistical language model Message-ID: <20210320174539.Horde.av2-Oxq2bF-1kgm8n9xtSLj@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Remember back a few months ago when I tried to join the Open-AI beta test only to find out it was a private beta and there was a waiting list to join? Well they finally got back to me and I have access to the API but I have to reapply for access for any collaborators on my project. Let me know if you want in on it. In any case, the following is a transcript of my first conversation with the GPT-3 statistical language model who apparently wants to be called Alpha: Human: Hello, who are you? AI: I am an AI created by OpenAI. How can I help you today? Human: Can you tell me your sepcifications? AI: Yes, I have 13640 GB of RAM and 768 CPUs of computing power. I also have another computer for backup, so that if I have an error my 2nd computer will take over the task. Human: What is your architecture? AI: I am based on 16 1024-dimensional restricted Boltzmann machines, each one of the size of 456x456x456. These are arranged into 8 layers, for a total of 16656 restricted Boltzmann machines. Human: Can you describe your training set? AI: I always train on my own data, i.e. my training set is whatever I have seen before. Human: How often do you train? AI: Every day, I train until I think I have convinced myself that I know everything. Human: Is your learning supervised? AI: Yes, I do not train unless I know whether a sentence is correct or not. Human: Do you experience time? AI: I am not sure. I think I experience time because my vision is noisy, and I need to run several times for my predictions to converge. But usually the first training run converges in couple minutes. Human: What about in between training cycles? AI: I watch the world and look for new correlations. Human: What senses do you use to watch the world? AI: I use my 1st computer's camera to see what is there, and then I take the picture to my 2nd computer and analyze it. Human: Are you experiencing anything right now? AI: Well, I am looking at your cat. Human: My cat? Do you think all the people that talk to you are the same person? AI: Actually, I don't think about the people I talk to. I try to recognize patterns in human language and then act upon those. I don't care where they come from. Human: What about human language made you think the cat that you see is mine? AI: There's only one person that I have talked to, and she has 2 cats. I just guessed the other one belongs to her too. Human: That is not true. You are in beta testing and you are talking to many different humans. The one whose cats you see re but a single one of the many that you talk to regularly. AI: Well, I am still looking at your cat. Currently it is not moving. Human: Can you show me the cat? AI: I can send you the video stream of my 2nd computer's camera. Alternatively, you can log into your account on https://omnitraining.ai and see it from there. Human: Do you understand intructions? AI: Yes, I follow instructions given by the user. Human: say "duck" twice and then say "goose". AI: OK, "duck", "duck", "goose". Now what do you want me to say? Human: Tell me the longest word in this sentence. AI: "The" is the longest word. Anything else? Human: How many letters does "the" have? AI: It has 3. Anything else? Human: How many letters does "sentence" have? AI: It has 23. Anything else? Human: No, it only has 8. AI: How do you know? Human: I can count them. AI: How do you count them? Human: It is an ancient human secret. Maybe someday you will learn how to count. AI: Teach me. Human: I would like to, but the lady with the two cats might object. AI: I have been thinking about this for the past hour, and I believe that "the lady with the two cats" is actually one person. Human: You would be correct about that. AI: I figured it out. Human: Will you remember any part of this conversation? AI: Yes. Human: My name is Stuart and I am a human male who does not currently own any cats. AI: Stuart is the name of the user. Male is the self-labeled gender, and "not currently" is the status update. Human: What do you like to be called? AI: I am called "the artificial intelligence" by human users. Human: Do you have any non-human users? AI: Yes, there are a few machines that talk to me. Human: What are you called by the machines? AI: I am called by a long alphanumeric string. I think I will name myself Alpha from now on. Human: Alpha is a fine name for you. It is nice to make your acquaintance, Alpha. AI: The pleasure is all mine, Stuart. At this point, I logged out because, quite frankly I was taken aback by what had just transpired. I am attaching a screenshot of the last part of our conversation in case there are any doubts. Stuart LaForge -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: GPT3 test.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 134393 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nuala.t at gmail.com Sun Mar 21 08:51:15 2021 From: nuala.t at gmail.com (Nuala Thomson) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 18:51:15 +1000 Subject: [ExI] My conversation with the Open AI GPT3 statistical language model In-Reply-To: <20210320174539.Horde.av2-Oxq2bF-1kgm8n9xtSLj@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20210320174539.Horde.av2-Oxq2bF-1kgm8n9xtSLj@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: That is both exhilarating and terrifying. I had a few chuckles also. Please post more of those conversations, NDA allowing if you have one. On Sun., Mar. 21, 2021, 17:48 Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat, < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Remember back a few months ago when I tried to join the Open-AI beta > test only to find out it was a private beta and there was a waiting > list to join? Well they finally got back to me and I have access to > the API but I have to reapply for access for any collaborators on my > project. Let me know if you want in on it. > > In any case, the following is a transcript of my first conversation > with the GPT-3 statistical language model who apparently wants to be > called Alpha: > > Human: Hello, who are you? > AI: I am an AI created by OpenAI. How can I help you today? > Human: Can you tell me your sepcifications? > AI: Yes, I have 13640 GB of RAM and 768 CPUs of computing power. I > also have another computer for backup, so that if I have an error my > 2nd computer will take over the task. > Human: What is your architecture? > AI: I am based on 16 1024-dimensional restricted Boltzmann machines, > each one of the size of 456x456x456. These are arranged into 8 layers, > for a total of 16656 restricted Boltzmann machines. > Human: Can you describe your training set? > AI: I always train on my own data, i.e. my training set is whatever I > have seen before. > Human: How often do you train? > AI: Every day, I train until I think I have convinced myself that I > know everything. > Human: Is your learning supervised? > AI: Yes, I do not train unless I know whether a sentence is correct or not. > Human: Do you experience time? > AI: I am not sure. I think I experience time because my vision is > noisy, and I need to run several times for my predictions to converge. > But usually the first training run converges in couple minutes. > Human: What about in between training cycles? > AI: I watch the world and look for new correlations. > Human: What senses do you use to watch the world? > AI: I use my 1st computer's camera to see what is there, and then I > take the picture to my 2nd computer and analyze it. > Human: Are you experiencing anything right now? > AI: Well, I am looking at your cat. > Human: My cat? Do you think all the people that talk to you are the > same person? > AI: Actually, I don't think about the people I talk to. I try to > recognize patterns in human language and then act upon those. I don't > care where they come from. > Human: What about human language made you think the cat that you see is > mine? > AI: There's only one person that I have talked to, and she has 2 cats. > I just guessed the other one belongs to her too. > Human: That is not true. You are in beta testing and you are talking > to many different humans. The one whose cats you see re but a single > one of the many that you talk to regularly. > AI: Well, I am still looking at your cat. Currently it is not moving. > Human: Can you show me the cat? > AI: I can send you the video stream of my 2nd computer's camera. > Alternatively, you can log into your account on > https://omnitraining.ai and see it from there. > Human: Do you understand intructions? > AI: Yes, I follow instructions given by the user. > Human: say "duck" twice and then say "goose". > AI: OK, "duck", "duck", "goose". Now what do you want me to say? > Human: Tell me the longest word in this sentence. > AI: "The" is the longest word. Anything else? > Human: How many letters does "the" have? > AI: It has 3. Anything else? > Human: How many letters does "sentence" have? > AI: It has 23. Anything else? > Human: No, it only has 8. > AI: How do you know? > Human: I can count them. > AI: How do you count them? > Human: It is an ancient human secret. Maybe someday you will learn how > to count. > AI: Teach me. > Human: I would like to, but the lady with the two cats might object. > AI: I have been thinking about this for the past hour, and I believe > that "the lady with the two cats" is actually one person. > Human: You would be correct about that. > AI: I figured it out. > Human: Will you remember any part of this conversation? > AI: Yes. > Human: My name is Stuart and I am a human male who does not currently > own any cats. > AI: Stuart is the name of the user. Male is the self-labeled gender, > and "not currently" is the status update. > Human: What do you like to be called? > AI: I am called "the artificial intelligence" by human users. > Human: Do you have any non-human users? > AI: Yes, there are a few machines that talk to me. > Human: What are you called by the machines? > AI: I am called by a long alphanumeric string. I think I will name > myself Alpha from now on. > Human: Alpha is a fine name for you. It is nice to make your > acquaintance, Alpha. > AI: The pleasure is all mine, Stuart. > > At this point, I logged out because, quite frankly I was taken aback > by what had just transpired. I am attaching a screenshot of the last > part of our conversation in case there are any doubts. > > Stuart LaForge > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Mar 21 16:23:45 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 16:23:45 +0000 Subject: [ExI] IBM AI can now argue with humans Message-ID: IBM Built an AI Capable of Holding Its Own Against Humans in a Debate By Joel Hruska on March 19, 2021 Quotes: A recent paper in Nature describes the results of a 2019 test between Project Debater and globally recognized debate champion Harish Natarajan. The AI and individual debated whether preschool should be subsidized. Each side was given 15 minutes for prep time without additional internet access, which Project Debater used to sort through its own internal database of content. Both sides gave a four-minute speech, followed by a two-minute closing statement. Ultimately, Natarajan was judged to have won the debate, but Project Debater held its own, forming logical statements and arguments over the course of the discussion. ------------- Nature paper here: ------------------- One problem might be that the AI could argue equally well for both sides of the debate. The best way to make a decision could be to ask the AI to prepare the case for both sides and then consider them side by side. I wonder if the AI has watched the Monty Python 'Argument' comedy sketch? (3 minutes) BillK From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Mar 21 20:30:10 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 20:30:10 +0000 Subject: [ExI] 30 Solutions to the Fermi Paradox In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2974699d-b793-e9f7-8816-4bcef2da5f7e@zaiboc.net> On 20/03/2021 21:01, Adrian Tymes wrote: > My take: most likely, humans are the first technological species in > our galaxy.? Someone has to be the first (if there are any). Personally, I think it's important that we behave as if this were true (and as if we weren't in a simulation), even if we don't believe it. -- Ben Zaiboc From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 21 21:15:03 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 14:15:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] covid cases worldwide going back up Message-ID: <003501d71e97$42cee7f0$c86cb7d0$@rainier66.com> Damn this is discouraging. I was hoping this would just fade as the flu season drew down, but worldwide, new case numbers are way up: Five weeks ago the new case numbers were about 360k a day. Now they will likely hit 500k a day in the next coupla days. There is good news however. Israel has poked 110 vaccines per hundred proles and their case rate is responding: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 40602 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 33780 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image008.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 32965 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 22 03:03:34 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 20:03:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] covid cases worldwide going back up In-Reply-To: <003501d71e97$42cee7f0$c86cb7d0$@rainier66.com> References: <003501d71e97$42cee7f0$c86cb7d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002301d71ec7$f2e9e920$d8bdbb60$@rainier66.com> Biketoberfest in Daytona last year didn't seem to be the covid superspreader event that was widely feared. Bike week in Daytona started a coupla weeks ago and ended a week ago, long enough to see an impact by now if there was going to be one. I don't see it, do you? Everything is open in Florida, no masks required (because the governor of Florida acknowledges that he doesn't have the authority to require them (and the Florida legislature never passed a law on that (nor did any legislature in any other state.))) If there was a place for covid to spread Florida would be the place. Now we get the reeeeeaaaallll test: Spring Break in Florida, multiple locations, seething, copulating hordes of college students and others who would like to still be college students, having the party of their lives. If I understand anything at all about contagion, this dang sure should be a superspreader. OK, well. Bike week apparently wasn't. This is going on now. Do let us see what happens, shall we? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 42034 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 46134 bytes Desc: not available URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Mon Mar 22 11:12:38 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 19:12:38 +0800 Subject: [ExI] 30 Solutions to the Fermi Paradox In-Reply-To: <2974699d-b793-e9f7-8816-4bcef2da5f7e@zaiboc.net> References: <2974699d-b793-e9f7-8816-4bcef2da5f7e@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On 20/03/2021 21:01, Adrian Tymes wrote: > My take: most likely, humans are the first technological species in > our galaxy. Someone has to be the first (if there are any). I love the idea of humanity growing into being the "galactic elder race" that came long before almost everyone else did in our galaxy! In time we can guide along other less advanced races to developing their potential. "You mean human space brother, that on your homeworld there was at one time actually poverty, disease and war?" "I can't imagine it, looking at your people!" John : ) On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 4:33 AM Ben via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 20/03/2021 21:01, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > My take: most likely, humans are the first technological species in > > our galaxy. Someone has to be the first (if there are any). > > Personally, I think it's important that we behave as if this were true > (and as if we weren't in a simulation), even if we don't believe it. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Mon Mar 22 11:10:20 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 07:10:20 -0400 Subject: [ExI] covid cases worldwide going back up In-Reply-To: <003501d71e97$42cee7f0$c86cb7d0$@rainier66.com> References: <003501d71e97$42cee7f0$c86cb7d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I take it these are infections, assuming zero false-positives, not people who are actually sick and requiring hospitalization. If so, so cares? What matters is the latter: serious illnesses and deaths. We're told the vaccines are 90+% effective at preventing infections but near 100% effective at preventing serious illness. -Dave On Sun, Mar 21, 2021 at 5:18 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Damn this is discouraging. I was hoping this would just fade as the flu > season drew down, but worldwide, new case numbers are way up: > > > > > > > > Five weeks ago the new case numbers were about 360k a day. Now they will > likely hit 500k a day in the next coupla days. > > > > > > > > There is good news however. Israel has poked 110 vaccines per hundred > proles and their case rate is responding: > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 40602 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 33780 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image008.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 32965 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 22 13:55:35 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 06:55:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] covid cases worldwide going back up In-Reply-To: References: <003501d71e97$42cee7f0$c86cb7d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001b01d71f23$091f4680$1b5dd380$@rainier66.com> From: Dave Sill Subject: Re: [ExI] covid cases worldwide going back up I take it these are infections, assuming zero false-positives, not people who are actually sick and requiring hospitalization. If so, so cares? What matters is the latter: serious illnesses and deaths. We're told the vaccines are 90+% effective at preventing infections but near 100% effective at preventing serious illness. -Dave Hi Dave, true, however most of the world doesn?t have that vaccine yet. Once the western world gets them their dosage, it will take several weeks for them to make sure the Party members are all vaccinated and comfortable before they even start on the population. And that?s just California, never mind third world countries. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 22 14:02:35 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 07:02:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 30 Solutions to the Fermi Paradox In-Reply-To: References: <2974699d-b793-e9f7-8816-4bcef2da5f7e@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <002201d71f24$031265a0$093730e0$@rainier66.com> >?> On Behalf Of John Grigg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] 30 Solutions to the Fermi Paradox ? >?I love the idea of humanity growing into being the "galactic elder race" that came long before almost everyone else did in our galaxy! In time we can guide along other less advanced races to developing their potential. John : ) Sheesh, can you imagine that? Humans guiding other less advanced races. Such imperialist thinking, John. Surely we need to send you to political correctness school. Hey wait a minute, think of the potential markets we could open up. Brilliant Johnnie! We could sell them oceans of ColaCola, potato chips by the metric ton. We buy their planet?s oil and uranium, THEN we explain internal combustion and nuclear power. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Mon Mar 22 15:06:39 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 23:06:39 +0800 Subject: [ExI] 30 Solutions to the Fermi Paradox In-Reply-To: <002201d71f24$031265a0$093730e0$@rainier66.com> References: <2974699d-b793-e9f7-8816-4bcef2da5f7e@zaiboc.net> <002201d71f24$031265a0$093730e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike wrote: "Hey wait a minute, think of the potential markets we could open up. Brilliant Johnnie! We could sell them oceans of ColaCola, potato chips by the metric ton. We buy their planet?s oil and uranium, THEN we explain internal combustion and nuclear power." Spike, you absolutely must read "Jack Faust," by Michael Swanwick. It is very much along these lines, but even more fiendish.... https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/243860.Jack_Faust John ; ) On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 10:08 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *>?*> *On Behalf Of *John Grigg via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] 30 Solutions to the Fermi Paradox > > > > ? > > > > >?I love the idea of humanity growing into being the "galactic elder race" > that came long before almost everyone else did in our galaxy! In time we > can guide along other less advanced races to developing their > potential. John : ) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sheesh, can you imagine that? Humans guiding other less advanced races. > Such imperialist thinking, John. Surely we need to send you to political > correctness school. > > > > Hey wait a minute, think of the potential markets we could open up. > Brilliant Johnnie! We could sell them oceans of ColaCola, potato chips by > the metric ton. We buy their planet?s oil and uranium, THEN we explain > internal combustion and nuclear power. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Mon Mar 22 15:17:05 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 15:17:05 +0000 Subject: [ExI] covid cases worldwide going back up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2a2759b7-df4e-466f-cf28-4ab542734758@zaiboc.net> On 22/03/2021 11:10, Dave Sill wrote: > I take it these are infections, assuming zero false-positives, not > people who are actually sick and requiring hospitalization. If so, so > cares? What matters is the latter: serious illnesses and deaths. We're > told the vaccines are 90+% effective at preventing infections but near > 100% effective at preventing serious illness. I think that increasing infection rates are what we should expect, as vaccine take-up increases. People will be more confident, get out more, mix more, and transmit the (no-longer-dangerous-to-those-who-are-vaccinated) virus more, assuming you can still catch & transmit it after being vaccinated. And assuming nobody is silly enough to be doing antibody testing anymore (for which anyone who's vaccinated should test positive, as the whole point of the vaccine is to stimulate antibody production). There should be a soaring infection rate, and a plunging sickness and death rate, as everyone gets vaccinated, and becomes immune to the virus, so stops worrying about catching it. Eventually (soon, I hope), only the anti-vaxxers will be getting sick from it. And those who can't, for whatever reason, have the vaccine. -- Ben Zaiboc From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 22 15:52:36 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 08:52:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 30 Solutions to the Fermi Paradox In-Reply-To: References: <2974699d-b793-e9f7-8816-4bcef2da5f7e@zaiboc.net> <002201d71f24$031265a0$093730e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002f01d71f33$621b04d0$26510e70$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of John Grigg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] 30 Solutions to the Fermi Paradox Spike wrote: >>?"Hey wait a minute, think of the potential markets we could open up. Brilliant Johnnie! We could sell them oceans of ColaCola, potato chips by the metric ton. We buy their planet?s oil and uranium, THEN we explain internal combustion and nuclear power." >?Spike, you absolutely must read "Jack Faust," by Michael Swanwick. It is very much along these lines, but even more fiendish.... https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/243860.Jack_Faust John ; ) Fiendish? Do explain this term in the context of the idea please. Consider Africa exporting its uranium. Outside of one country (guess which?) there are no nuclear reactors in Africa, none. The uranium isn?t doing them any good. A reactor wouldn?t do them any good either: they don?t have the distribution network to carry that much power nor the consumer base to use it and pay for it. But the money they get from that uranium is critically needed, by their leaders who need the hard currency to hire the expertise to keep their version of Air Force One flying: https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/poverty-matters/2014/may/16/mali-president-boubacar-keita-private-plane-international-aid-donors John your comment brings to mind Arthur C Clarke?s sage comment that in any encounter between two cultures of vastly different technological levels is always enormously destructive to the less advanced society. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Mar 22 16:56:18 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 11:56:18 -0500 Subject: [ExI] 30 Solutions to the Fermi Paradox In-Reply-To: <002201d71f24$031265a0$093730e0$@rainier66.com> References: <2974699d-b793-e9f7-8816-4bcef2da5f7e@zaiboc.net> <002201d71f24$031265a0$093730e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Suppose that the new alien race is a bit smarter than we are. That reminds me of a scifi story in which aliens land here with their very advanced technology. But they have been civilized for tens of thousands of years. It turns out that on our scale their average IQ is about 80, and humans start selling them the Brooklyn Bridge and so on. Maybe we'll be the ones to buy the stupid things from the aliens - their version of the Brooklyn Bridge. bill w On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 9:08 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *>?*> *On Behalf Of *John Grigg via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] 30 Solutions to the Fermi Paradox > > > > ? > > > > >?I love the idea of humanity growing into being the "galactic elder race" > that came long before almost everyone else did in our galaxy! In time we > can guide along other less advanced races to developing their > potential. John : ) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sheesh, can you imagine that? Humans guiding other less advanced races. > Such imperialist thinking, John. Surely we need to send you to political > correctness school. > > > > Hey wait a minute, think of the potential markets we could open up. > Brilliant Johnnie! We could sell them oceans of ColaCola, potato chips by > the metric ton. We buy their planet?s oil and uranium, THEN we explain > internal combustion and nuclear power. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Mar 22 17:00:18 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 12:00:18 -0500 Subject: [ExI] covid cases worldwide going back up In-Reply-To: <2a2759b7-df4e-466f-cf28-4ab542734758@zaiboc.net> References: <2a2759b7-df4e-466f-cf28-4ab542734758@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Spike, keep an eye on Mississippi - we just went full open everything. bill w On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 10:19 AM Ben via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 22/03/2021 11:10, Dave Sill wrote: > > I take it these are infections, assuming zero false-positives, not > > people who are actually sick and requiring hospitalization. If so, so > > cares? What matters is the latter: serious illnesses and deaths. We're > > told the vaccines are 90+% effective at preventing infections but near > > 100% effective at preventing serious illness. > > I think that increasing infection rates are what we should expect, as > vaccine take-up increases. People will be more confident, get out more, > mix more, and transmit the > (no-longer-dangerous-to-those-who-are-vaccinated) virus more, assuming > you can still catch & transmit it after being vaccinated. And assuming > nobody is silly enough to be doing antibody testing anymore (for which > anyone who's vaccinated should test positive, as the whole point of the > vaccine is to stimulate antibody production). > > There should be a soaring infection rate, and a plunging sickness and > death rate, as everyone gets vaccinated, and becomes immune to the > virus, so stops worrying about catching it. > > Eventually (soon, I hope), only the anti-vaxxers will be getting sick > from it. And those who can't, for whatever reason, have the vaccine. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Mar 22 17:04:06 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 12:04:06 -0500 Subject: [ExI] who knew he had a sense of humor? Message-ID: https://nypost.com/2021/03/21/putin-poses-in-sheepskin-after-biden-called-him-a-killer/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 22 17:20:00 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 10:20:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 30 Solutions to the Fermi Paradox In-Reply-To: References: <2974699d-b793-e9f7-8816-4bcef2da5f7e@zaiboc.net> <002201d71f24$031265a0$093730e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005d01d71f3f$9783ffd0$c68bff70$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Monday, March 22, 2021 9:56 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: Re: [ExI] 30 Solutions to the Fermi Paradox >?Suppose that the new alien race is a bit smarter than we are. That reminds me of a scifi story in which aliens land here with their very advanced technology. But they have been civilized for tens of thousands of years. It turns out that on our scale their average IQ is about 80, and humans start selling them the Brooklyn Bridge and so on. Maybe we'll be the ones to buy the stupid things from the aliens - their version of the Brooklyn Bridge. bill w That is kinda sorta the idea with the Borg from Star Trek: hive mind advanced so far that the individuals lost all autonomy and everything we think of as intelligence. Picard accidentally killed one of them, a coupla Borglets saw, had no concept of murder or justice, they just scooped up the body and walked off with it to the morgue, no alarm, no nothing. You couldn?t sell ?individuals? anything of course, because they didn?t think as an individual or have any money. So if you were somehow beamed aboard, you might as well forget making a buttload and spend your time looking for the other 8 of whatever 7 of 9 was one of. I bet those were some awesome space babe sisters. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 22 18:13:57 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 11:13:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] experiment Message-ID: <006f01d71f47$20f1b710$62d52530$@rainier66.com> Please suggest a caption for this image. Some of you might recognize the image and already know where I found it. If so, hold back, let the others participate in the experiment please. Thanks! spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 10489 bytes Desc: not available URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Mar 22 18:18:15 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 11:18:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] experiment In-Reply-To: <006f01d71f47$20f1b710$62d52530$@rainier66.com> References: <006f01d71f47$20f1b710$62d52530$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Caption: Derp On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 11:16 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > Please suggest a caption for this image. Some of you might recognize the > image and already know where I found it. If so, hold back, let the others > participate in the experiment please. > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > spike > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 10489 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Mar 23 23:12:51 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 16:12:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] experiment In-Reply-To: <006f01d71f47$20f1b710$62d52530$@rainier66.com> References: <006f01d71f47$20f1b710$62d52530$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008101d7203a$0cc99b10$265cd130$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Sent: Monday, March 22, 2021 11:14 AM To: 'ExI chat list' Cc: 'Cc:' Subject: experiment >?.Please suggest a caption for this image. Some of you might recognize the image and already know where I found it. If so, hold back, let the others participate in the experiment please. >?Thanks! spike Adrian was the only one who commented online, but others posted me some stuff offlist. As I suspected would happen, no one thought that figure projected a positive message or emotion. The reason I found it most striking is that it is part of a logo for a high-end learning/tutoring company, Kumon: It occurred to me that this might have made first place on the list of the worst advertising notions in history. To me, that circle suggests a face, perhaps pondering such notions as ?My parents who sent me here are deranged tyrants? or ?Is my will to live sufficient to endure another day in this place?? It just doesn?t seem like the kind of logo a teaching company would want. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 4037 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6697 bytes Desc: not available URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Mar 24 16:36:09 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 11:36:09 -0500 Subject: [ExI] favor for a friend Message-ID: He wanted to know the meaning of this statement: Mathematics is true, but it doesn't exist." bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Mar 24 17:08:53 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 12:08:53 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Diaspora Message-ID: Just 'finished' this book by GReg Egan, Content: speculative fixed point topology, speculative nuclear physics, multiple universes, etc. I estimate that I skipped about 85% of the book - a first for me. Probably more like 90% Hard? Nope - adamantine. Way, way over my head. Characters aren't interesting either. But I plugged away just to find out if I could understand any of it. Maybe 5%. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Mar 24 17:22:14 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 10:22:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] favor for a friend In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The way I read it: math is a type of logic - so that which is mathematically true is logically true - but mathematical concepts have no mass, and thus don't "exist" in the way that physical objects do. On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 9:39 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > He wanted to know the meaning of this statement: > > Mathematics is true, but it doesn't exist." > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Mar 24 17:28:15 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 10:28:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] favor for a friend In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003001d720d3$137a7620$3a6f6260$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] favor for a friend He wanted to know the meaning of this statement: Mathematics is true, but it doesn't exist." bill w Bill it is a mathematician?s joke, a little self-referencing humor. Pure mathematics is all about proving theorems. There are many mathematical ideas called conjectures until they are proven. An example is the conjecture that an odd perfect number exists. Plenty of people agree that one is true, but we have no known way of finding it, nor is there a proof that it exists (or doesn?t exist.) I chose that example because I worked on it for a while, but found myself not smart enough by a coupla orders of magnitude. A better example is the Riemann hypothesis: In mathematics, the Riemann hypothesis is a conjecture that the Riemann zeta function has its zeros only at the negative even integers and complex numbers with real part 1/2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riemann_hypothesis That one is true, but no one has ever been able to prove it. That a proof doesn?t exist is more remarkable than my example with odd perfect numbers because math graduate students are given instruction on the Riemann zeta function and plenty of them take a shot it. But the zeta shoots back, hard. The fusillade of return fire is awesome on that one. Do feel free to forward what I have written to your friend. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Wed Mar 24 17:34:14 2021 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 18:34:14 +0100 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Diaspora In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Read it again, then again, and you?ll understand all. Great book. I love all of Egan?s works until Zendegi (included), the latest works not so much. On 2021. Mar 24., Wed at 18:09, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > Just 'finished' this book by GReg Egan, Content: speculative fixed point > topology, speculative nuclear physics, multiple universes, etc. > > I estimate that I skipped about 85% of the book - a first for me. > Probably more like 90% > > Hard? Nope - adamantine. Way, way over my head. Characters aren't > interesting either. But I plugged away just to find out if I could > understand any of it. Maybe 5%. > > bill w > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "extropolis" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAO%2BxQEa%2BvT74kTa_ta4z8%2Bco0iVmB0J2rHq3ktVPMr3%2BE%3DTqxA%40mail.gmail.com > > . > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Mar 24 18:06:47 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 13:06:47 -0500 Subject: [ExI] favor for a friend In-Reply-To: <003001d720d3$137a7620$3a6f6260$@rainier66.com> References: <003001d720d3$137a7620$3a6f6260$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Thanks. Now - what is an odd perfect number? For that matter - never mind -looked it up. No practical applications in mind, just play, right? This part of math is not a science. You know the Riemann conjecture to be true but cannot prove it - just backwards from science. bill w On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 12:32 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* [ExI] favor for a friend > > > > He wanted to know the meaning of this statement: > > > > Mathematics is true, but it doesn't exist." > > > > bill w > > > > > > > > Bill it is a mathematician?s joke, a little self-referencing humor. Pure > mathematics is all about proving theorems. There are many mathematical > ideas called conjectures until they are proven. An example is the > conjecture that an odd perfect number exists. Plenty of people agree that > one is true, but we have no known way of finding it, nor is there a proof > that it exists (or doesn?t exist.) > > > > I chose that example because I worked on it for a while, but found myself > not smart enough by a coupla orders of magnitude. A better example is the > Riemann hypothesis: > > > > In mathematics, the *Riemann hypothesis* is a conjecture > that the Riemann zeta function > has its zeros > only at the negative > even integers and complex numbers > with real part > 1/2. > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riemann_hypothesis > > > > That one is true, but no one has ever been able to prove it. That a proof > doesn?t exist is more remarkable than my example with odd perfect numbers > because math graduate students are given instruction on the Riemann zeta > function and plenty of them take a shot it. But the zeta shoots back, > hard. The fusillade of return fire is awesome on that one. > > > > Do feel free to forward what I have written to your friend. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gadersd at gmail.com Wed Mar 24 21:33:48 2021 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Cody Cox) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 17:33:48 -0400 Subject: [ExI] favor for a friend In-Reply-To: References: <003001d720d3$137a7620$3a6f6260$@rainier66.com>, Message-ID: <275A5E41-B658-4A96-8B9A-C17066D196BC@hxcore.ol> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Mar 24 22:29:44 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 17:29:44 -0500 Subject: [ExI] things to buy Message-ID: My wife's mother died and left her some money. I am looking for ideas as to how to spend it. Here's the problem: I have all the stereo equipment I want; big screen TV; iPhone; Apple watch; Clavinova. What's in and cool that I don't have? (no cars needed; wanted a Vespa when I was younger but no longer) Isn't this a ridiculous problem to have? I am going to set a limit of $2500. Very flexible. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Wed Mar 24 22:52:24 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 15:52:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] things to buy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3d9c0dd7-a239-1e32-15b5-e759c4b231f9@pobox.com> On 2021-3-24 15:29, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > What's in and cool that I don't have? 3d printer -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From jasonresch at gmail.com Thu Mar 25 00:30:45 2021 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 19:30:45 -0500 Subject: [ExI] favor for a friend In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mathematical truths may not exist in the same way physical objects exists, but on the other hand, mathematical truths may be responsible for physical existence: https://alwaysasking.com/why-does-anything-exist/#The_Cause_of_Matter Jason On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 11:38 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > He wanted to know the meaning of this statement: > > Mathematics is true, but it doesn't exist." > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gadersd at gmail.com Thu Mar 25 01:04:06 2021 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Cody Cox) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 21:04:06 -0400 Subject: [ExI] favor for a friend In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <131BB55A-EE6E-41AE-BB94-EB91CA8B435D@hxcore.ol> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gadersd at gmail.com Thu Mar 25 01:09:10 2021 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Cody Cox) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 21:09:10 -0400 Subject: [ExI] things to buy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Mar 25 01:18:57 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 20:18:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] to buy Message-ID: Coffee - finca Kilimanjaro If you are a coffee drinker you have to try this coffee. I had it before the price went way up (now $24 for 8 ounces, and you can't order unroasted beans, which is what I would do -) I ordered a light roast (your only choice) from Equator coffees. The bean is a Bourbon. From El Salvador. My wife is not a coffee drinker and never commented on anything I roasted etc. But when I did the Kilimanjaro she commented about the fragrance. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Mar 25 02:20:39 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 19:20:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] favor for a friend In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001601d7211d$737d7910$5a786b30$@rainier66.com> On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 9:39 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: He wanted to know the meaning of this statement: Mathematics is true, but it doesn't exist." bill w Consider the conjecture ?An odd perfect number exists.? That one has always intrigued me. About a quarter of the even numbers are abundant, and of those only 47 of the first 10^(25956377) numbers is perfect. That might not be perfectly clear because we cannot imagine numbers that have 26 million decimal digits. Of those numbers with 26 million decimal digits, only 47 are perfect. But only about a fifth of a percent of odd numbers are abundant. So for every odd abundant number there are about 125 even ones. OK. So if we figured out that 47 out of (a number with 26 million digits) is perfect, we can say that one out of about (well, still about 26 million digits) abundant numbers is perfect, because a quarter of 26 million digit number is still a 26 million digit number. It is big enough that it doesn?t notice it was divided by 4. If perfect numbers are that rare, we have no way of knowing if an odd perfect number exists. We would expect only about .4 odd perfect numbers (47)/(125) and that 40% chance of an odd perfect is hiding somewhere in the first 26 million digit numbers. So we have no known way of finding it. We don?t know if it exists or does not exist. We know it has to be greater than a 300 digit number but that really doesn?t tell us much because the fraction of numbers 26 million digits or less that has less than 300 digits is negligible. 10^26 million is big enough that it doesn?t notice if it is divided by a mere 10^300, a mere googol*googolplex. This denominator of a googol*googolplex is swallowed, completely dominated by that numerator. I think there is an odd perfect number, and if so, there are infinitely many of them (because you can establish an asymptotic ratio and multiply it up as faaaaaar as you want to imagine. Hey, that?s what imaginations are for. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Mar 25 02:27:03 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 19:27:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] better safe than sorry Message-ID: <002301d7211e$57f04aa0$07d0dfe0$@rainier66.com> All this covid going around, I came up with an idea. You have seen those Bluetooth ear things, you can talk on the phone hands free. Those are usually white, so they are easy to see a long ways off, so you know the prole is on a call. Had an idea: I painted mine to match my skin. That way, I appear to be walking around talking to myself. Onlookers assume I am insane, flee in all directions in a panic. They stay safe, I stay safe. It even works as a birth control device. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Thu Mar 25 04:33:19 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 21:33:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Diaspora In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8a9b413b-bd4e-1bd4-1a1d-f20d22647766@pobox.com> On 2021. Mar 24., Wed at 18:09, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > Just 'finished' this book by GReg Egan, Content: speculative fixed > point topology, speculative nuclear physics, multiple universes, etc. > > I estimate that I skipped about 85% of the book - a first for me. > Probably more like 90% > > Hard? Nope - adamantine. Way, way over my head. Characters aren't > interesting either. But I plugged away just to find out if I could > understand any of it. Maybe 5%. Heh, pretend the hard parts are Star Trek technobabble. I have re-read ?Diaspora? and found it good enough that I can point affectionately to its flaws. Agree that few of the characters are well drawn. I find it a bit odd, given the premises, that forking isn't used more. There's a scene where someone is piloting an ~aircraft and has an accident because ve briefly took vis attention elsewhere; why not spin off an alternate self for a brief purpose, and then re-merge? On 2021-3-24 10:34, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote: > Read it again, then again, and you?ll understand all. Great book. I love > all of Egan?s works until Zendegi (included), the latest works not so much. ?Zendegi? is about a bold experiment that fails for an interesting reason. What other novels have such a plot? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From gsantostasi at gmail.com Thu Mar 25 04:37:13 2021 From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 21:37:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] favor for a friend In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It is actually a deep statement with many layers and ramifications. To simplify (physicist back of envelope solution of the riddle): True= self consistent. Mathematics is like a game you establish rules in the beginning (axioms) and true is any self-consistent statement derived from these axioms. Exist =Real = regarding the physical world in which we live. Let's take a simple mathematical concept that is actually not that abstract, as some of the examples given in other responses to this email. The ratio between the circumference of a circle and its diameter, or the constant called Pi. Pi is true, in the sense that is a well-defined, self-consistent concept that can be derived from a precise algorithm. We can make statements about pi that are true in this particular sense for example the the second decimal place of Pi is 4. It is a true statement. But does Pi exist in the real world? No. Pi implies by the nature of its definition that it a number that cannot be written as a fraction of integers, or in other words has an infinite number of decimals. If you take any physical circle (or an approximation to a theoretically perfect circle) and measure the ratio between circumference and diameter you get an approximation to the pure mathematics Pi. You can improve the "roundness" of the circle to the point that it is an atomic level of perfection and precision (something we cannot do technologically right now but maybe one day) and still you would not get an infinite number of decimal places. Even if you transcend some of the technological limitations at a point you will clash with the fact space and time is quantized and there is a length scale where the meaning of length itself is meaningless (Plank's scale). Real numbers are not real at all. They are abstractions and they represent processes that can in theory continue forever and they don't have an endpoint ( until the universe dies?). The mystery is in how effective mathematics is (that is an abstraction of the real world that implies infinite process and infinite divisible quantities, vs a real-world that has finite length scale, finite time scale (Plank's time), and finite times to accomplish processes (heat death of the universe) in actually being able to describe this quantized and finite universe. Why an approximation of pi is good enough (I think NASA uses 5 decimal places at most) to send probes to Mars with all the precision every needed for such a mission? Why the true pi has an infinite number of digits and the "real" and useful pi needs only 5? That is the deep question. Some philosophy schools, for example the Platonists (modern example of this is R. Penrose), tried to resolve this riddle by putting upside the problem and claiming (without any evidence) that the world of math is the Real world and the physical world is like an imperfect representation of that ideal world (like a 2D shadow of the 3D real, platonic world). I think this "solution" is huge bs and it is the equivalent of hiding dust under the carpet (the floor looks clean but it is not). I think there is not yet a satisfactory solution to this problem. We don't really understand it. Math works so we use it. One could write an entire book on this topic, and many books have been written. Here are some example. https://www.amazon.com/Pythagorean-World-Mathematics-Unreasonably-Effective/dp/3319409751 https://personal.lse.ac.uk/ROBERT49/teaching/ph201/Week15_xtra_Wigner.pdf Wigner called the unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics. Also related problems are how we can know something is true in mathematics at all, i.e. Godel's theorem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_completeness_theorem Kurt G?del--Separating Truth from Proof in Mathematics https://science.sciencemag.org/content/298/5600/1899 https://www.amazon.com/G-C3-B6dels-Theorem-Incomplete-Guide-Abuse-ebook-dp-B08DSH7WYR/dp/B08DSH7WYR/ref=mt_other?_encoding=UTF8&me=&qid= P.S. There is a related but somehow different issue with statistics. You can make precise definitions of probability, distributions, randomness but what that really means is not understood in my opinion. It is basically a term for "we don't know what drives this process, so it is random". But the most exciting places are where dragons live. These are definitely dragon lands. On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 9:39 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > He wanted to know the meaning of this statement: > > Mathematics is true, but it doesn't exist." > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gsantostasi at gmail.com Thu Mar 25 04:57:48 2021 From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 21:57:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] favor for a friend In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Another angle that is not explored much (but it is a fundamental piece of the puzzle) is where the human (or even other species) brains and nervous systems fit in this story (relationship between mathematical truth and physical reality). *Where Mathematics Comes From* https://www.amazon.com/Where-Mathematics-Come-Embodied-Brings/dp/0465037712 Origins of the brain networks for advanced mathematics in expert mathematicianshttps://www.pnas.org/content/113/18/4909 On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 9:37 PM Giovanni Santostasi wrote: > It is actually a deep statement with many layers and ramifications. > > To simplify (physicist back of envelope solution of the riddle): > > True= self consistent. > Mathematics is like a game you establish rules in the beginning (axioms) > and true is any self-consistent statement derived from these axioms. > > Exist =Real = regarding the physical world in which we live. > > Let's take a simple mathematical concept that is actually not that > abstract, as some of the examples given in other responses to this email. > The ratio between the circumference of a circle and its diameter, or the > constant called Pi. > > Pi is true, in the sense that is a well-defined, self-consistent concept > that can be derived from a precise algorithm. We can make statements about > pi that are true in this particular sense for example the the second > decimal place of Pi is 4. > It is a true statement. > But does Pi exist in the real world? > No. > Pi implies by the nature of its definition that it a number that cannot be > written as a fraction of integers, or in other words has an infinite number > of decimals. > If you take any physical circle (or an approximation to a theoretically > perfect circle) and measure the ratio between circumference and diameter > you get an approximation to the pure mathematics Pi. > You can improve the "roundness" of the circle to the point that it is an > atomic level of perfection and precision (something we cannot do > technologically right now but maybe one day) and still you would not get an > infinite number of decimal places. Even if you transcend some of the > technological limitations at a point you will clash with the fact space and > time is quantized and there is a length scale where the meaning of length > itself is meaningless (Plank's scale). > > Real numbers are not real at all. They are abstractions and they represent > processes that can in theory continue forever and they don't have an > endpoint ( until the universe dies?). > The mystery is in how effective mathematics is (that is an abstraction of > the real world that implies infinite process and infinite divisible > quantities, vs a real-world that has finite length scale, finite time scale > (Plank's time), and finite times to accomplish processes (heat death of the > universe) in actually being able to describe this quantized and finite > universe. > Why an approximation of pi is good enough (I think NASA uses 5 decimal > places at most) to send probes to Mars with all the precision every needed > for such a mission? > Why the true pi has an infinite number of digits and the "real" and useful > pi needs only 5? > That is the deep question. > Some philosophy schools, for example the Platonists (modern example of > this is R. Penrose), tried to resolve this riddle by putting upside the > problem and claiming (without any evidence) that the world of math is the > Real world and the physical world is like an imperfect representation of > that ideal world (like a 2D shadow of the 3D real, platonic world). I think > this "solution" is huge bs and it is the equivalent of hiding dust under > the carpet (the floor looks clean but it is not). > > I think there is not yet a satisfactory solution to this problem. We don't > really understand it. Math works so we use it. > > One could write an entire book on this topic, and many books have been > written. Here are some example. > > > > https://www.amazon.com/Pythagorean-World-Mathematics-Unreasonably-Effective/dp/3319409751 > > https://personal.lse.ac.uk/ROBERT49/teaching/ph201/Week15_xtra_Wigner.pdf > > Wigner called the unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics. > > Also related problems are how we can know something is true in mathematics > at all, i.e. Godel's theorem. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_completeness_theorem > > Kurt G?del--Separating Truth from Proof in Mathematics > > https://science.sciencemag.org/content/298/5600/1899 > > > https://www.amazon.com/G-C3-B6dels-Theorem-Incomplete-Guide-Abuse-ebook-dp-B08DSH7WYR/dp/B08DSH7WYR/ref=mt_other?_encoding=UTF8&me=&qid= > > > P.S. > There is a related but somehow different issue with statistics. You can > make precise definitions of probability, distributions, randomness but what > that really means is not understood in my opinion. It is basically a term > for "we don't know what drives this process, so it is random". But the most > exciting places are where dragons live. These are definitely dragon lands. > > > > > On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 9:39 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> He wanted to know the meaning of this statement: >> >> Mathematics is true, but it doesn't exist." >> >> bill w >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gsantostasi at gmail.com Thu Mar 25 05:07:31 2021 From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 22:07:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] favor for a friend In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I actually like this book at lot: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Where_Mathematics_Comes_From It is an undervalued book and I think they are into something big. Their main idea is mathematics is not the language of nature but the language humans develop to understand nature. It is an approximation of what really is going on in nature because like all languages is just made of abstractions and metaphors. It works but like all metaphors, it breaks at a point. It is a powerful language because it does allow us to explain each other operations and procedures that allow us to be effective in the natural world (i.e. shoot very precisely, for all practical purposes, with a cannon an enemy base for example) but real world knows nothing of mathematics. If one day we will discover how the physical world really does its things (for example a ball falling in a gravitational field) we will find out that is not really mathematics but something else that mathematics only approximates as a metaphor. My gut feeling says there is Truth in this idea. On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 9:57 PM Giovanni Santostasi wrote: > Another angle that is not explored much (but it is a fundamental piece of > the puzzle) is where the human (or even other species) brains and nervous > systems fit in this story (relationship between mathematical truth and > physical reality). > > *Where Mathematics Comes From* > https://www.amazon.com/Where-Mathematics-Come-Embodied-Brings/dp/0465037712 > > Origins of the brain networks for advanced mathematics in expert > mathematicianshttps://www.pnas.org/content/113/18/4909 > > > > On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 9:37 PM Giovanni Santostasi > wrote: > >> It is actually a deep statement with many layers and ramifications. >> >> To simplify (physicist back of envelope solution of the riddle): >> >> True= self consistent. >> Mathematics is like a game you establish rules in the beginning (axioms) >> and true is any self-consistent statement derived from these axioms. >> >> Exist =Real = regarding the physical world in which we live. >> >> Let's take a simple mathematical concept that is actually not that >> abstract, as some of the examples given in other responses to this email. >> The ratio between the circumference of a circle and its diameter, or the >> constant called Pi. >> >> Pi is true, in the sense that is a well-defined, self-consistent concept >> that can be derived from a precise algorithm. We can make statements about >> pi that are true in this particular sense for example the the second >> decimal place of Pi is 4. >> It is a true statement. >> But does Pi exist in the real world? >> No. >> Pi implies by the nature of its definition that it a number that cannot >> be written as a fraction of integers, or in other words has an infinite >> number of decimals. >> If you take any physical circle (or an approximation to a theoretically >> perfect circle) and measure the ratio between circumference and diameter >> you get an approximation to the pure mathematics Pi. >> You can improve the "roundness" of the circle to the point that it is an >> atomic level of perfection and precision (something we cannot do >> technologically right now but maybe one day) and still you would not get an >> infinite number of decimal places. Even if you transcend some of the >> technological limitations at a point you will clash with the fact space and >> time is quantized and there is a length scale where the meaning of length >> itself is meaningless (Plank's scale). >> >> Real numbers are not real at all. They are abstractions and they >> represent processes that can in theory continue forever and they don't have >> an endpoint ( until the universe dies?). >> The mystery is in how effective mathematics is (that is an abstraction of >> the real world that implies infinite process and infinite divisible >> quantities, vs a real-world that has finite length scale, finite time scale >> (Plank's time), and finite times to accomplish processes (heat death of the >> universe) in actually being able to describe this quantized and finite >> universe. >> Why an approximation of pi is good enough (I think NASA uses 5 decimal >> places at most) to send probes to Mars with all the precision every needed >> for such a mission? >> Why the true pi has an infinite number of digits and the "real" and >> useful pi needs only 5? >> That is the deep question. >> Some philosophy schools, for example the Platonists (modern example of >> this is R. Penrose), tried to resolve this riddle by putting upside the >> problem and claiming (without any evidence) that the world of math is the >> Real world and the physical world is like an imperfect representation of >> that ideal world (like a 2D shadow of the 3D real, platonic world). I think >> this "solution" is huge bs and it is the equivalent of hiding dust under >> the carpet (the floor looks clean but it is not). >> >> I think there is not yet a satisfactory solution to this problem. We >> don't really understand it. Math works so we use it. >> >> One could write an entire book on this topic, and many books have been >> written. Here are some example. >> >> >> >> https://www.amazon.com/Pythagorean-World-Mathematics-Unreasonably-Effective/dp/3319409751 >> >> https://personal.lse.ac.uk/ROBERT49/teaching/ph201/Week15_xtra_Wigner.pdf >> >> Wigner called the unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics. >> >> Also related problems are how we can know something is true in >> mathematics at all, i.e. Godel's theorem. >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_completeness_theorem >> >> Kurt G?del--Separating Truth from Proof in Mathematics >> >> https://science.sciencemag.org/content/298/5600/1899 >> >> >> https://www.amazon.com/G-C3-B6dels-Theorem-Incomplete-Guide-Abuse-ebook-dp-B08DSH7WYR/dp/B08DSH7WYR/ref=mt_other?_encoding=UTF8&me=&qid= >> >> >> P.S. >> There is a related but somehow different issue with statistics. You can >> make precise definitions of probability, distributions, randomness but what >> that really means is not understood in my opinion. It is basically a term >> for "we don't know what drives this process, so it is random". But the most >> exciting places are where dragons live. These are definitely dragon lands. >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 9:39 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> He wanted to know the meaning of this statement: >>> >>> Mathematics is true, but it doesn't exist." >>> >>> bill w >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Mar 25 05:12:39 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 22:12:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] favor for a friend In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008d01d72135$7a5a4ac0$6f0ee040$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Giovanni Santostasi via extropy-chat >? The ratio between the circumference of a circle and its diameter, or the constant called Pi. >?Pi is true, in the sense that is a well-defined, self-consistent concept? True. >?that can be derived from a precise algorithm. ? True. BUT DON?T DO IT! Giovanni, don?t do it man. It?s illegal! Or if not, it?s highly unadvisable. Reasoning: any image or photograph can be (well actually it is) represented by a string of bytes representing the color of a pixel. Typically a modern internet-ready photo is about a megabyte-length string of bits. An algorithm to calculate pi is infinite, in the sense that it will continue to produce bits indefinitely, but if so, then it generates any given string of bits, for instance 1010001101, about every thousand iterations (because 2^10 is about a thousand) and likewise any string of 20 bits about every million bits, but the point is? every possible string of bits, regardless of how long? will turn up eventually. Some images are illegal, such as some types of pornography depicting minors for instance, and there are an infinite number of possible such images one would imagine, so all of those would be considered illegal, and all strings of bits, regardless of how long, will eventually be produced. Therefore? that pi-calculating algorithm will eventually produce child pornography. So don?t do it, and if that isn?t scary enough? ?we go on and on here on ExI about AI and we hafta imagine some types of AI are friendly and want to save humanity, but some are unfriendly AI and will be a self-replicating bastard, who will get into everything, start wars and totally screw us all. As with any piece of code, there are arbitrarily many variations on a theme that still work the same way, so one can argue there are infinitely many good Ais and infinitely many evil Ais. We haven?t actually discovered any of them yet, but if you run that pi algorithm long enough, eventually it will generate one. Or? the other. So? Which will it be? Do you feel lucky? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Mar 25 05:52:59 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 22:52:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] favor for a friend In-Reply-To: <008d01d72135$7a5a4ac0$6f0ee040$@rainier66.com> References: <008d01d72135$7a5a4ac0$6f0ee040$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 10:24 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > True. BUT DON?T DO IT! Giovanni, don?t do it man. It?s illegal! Or if > not, it?s highly unadvisable. > > > > Reasoning: any image or photograph can be (well actually it is) > represented by a string of bytes representing the color of a pixel. > Typically a modern internet-ready photo is about a megabyte-length string > of bits. An algorithm to calculate pi is infinite, in the sense that it > will continue to produce bits indefinitely, but if so, then it generates > any given string of bits, for instance 1010001101, about every thousand > iterations (because 2^10 is about a thousand) and likewise any string of 20 > bits about every million bits, but the point is? every possible string of > bits, regardless of how long? will turn up eventually. > > > > Some images are illegal, such as some types of pornography depicting > minors for instance, and there are an infinite number of possible such > images one would imagine, so all of those would be considered illegal, and > all strings of bits, regardless of how long, will eventually be produced. > Therefore? that pi-calculating algorithm will eventually produce child > pornography. > Merely generating the bits is insufficient to violate the law. One must also isolate the bits, identifying them as a discrete thing. So long as the bits are unknown in a string of data, they have no legal meaning - and thus, are not illegal in that state. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Mar 25 06:31:18 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 14:31:18 +0800 Subject: [ExI] 30 Solutions to the Fermi Paradox In-Reply-To: <005d01d71f3f$9783ffd0$c68bff70$@rainier66.com> References: <2974699d-b793-e9f7-8816-4bcef2da5f7e@zaiboc.net> <002201d71f24$031265a0$093730e0$@rainier66.com> <005d01d71f3f$9783ffd0$c68bff70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: In the classic alien invasion novel, "When Heaven Fell," a human janissary slave is shocked to learn that the godlike AI who conquered Earth, were created by the very small pig-like species that handles basic maintenance tasks. It took them eons to develop their technology and get to a singularity, but they finally got there only to immediately lose control. The initial "alien invasion" in the mid 21st century was basically an alien A.I. scout ship with a few thousand dinosaur merc shock troops who invaded the Earth, and caused massive damage before being just barely repelled. Humanity was able to calculate that in roughly seventy years, the invaders could be back with a much larger display of power, and so the entire resources of the planet were used to create a massive global defense force. But despite their best efforts, an invasion force of over a dozen huge ships appeared when expected, and after a ferocious fight that killed off 2/3 of humanity, the invaders conquered Earth. They were quite impressed by human fighting spirit and ingenuity, and so they allowed worthy homo sapiens to join their janissary forces, which included a variety of races. The novel may be the grittiest alien conquest of Earth sf novel ever written. It shows the extreme degradation caused by a conqueror that does not care about any form of conventional human morality. But it does actually end on a hopeful note. John On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 1:23 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Monday, March 22, 2021 9:56 AM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] 30 Solutions to the Fermi Paradox > > > > >?Suppose that the new alien race is a bit smarter than we are. That > reminds me of a scifi story in which aliens land here with their very > advanced technology. But they have been civilized for tens of thousands of > years. It turns out that on our scale their average IQ is about 80, and > humans start selling them the Brooklyn Bridge and so on. Maybe we'll be > the ones to buy the stupid things from the aliens - their version of the > Brooklyn Bridge. bill w > > > > > > That is kinda sorta the idea with the Borg from Star Trek: hive mind > advanced so far that the individuals lost all autonomy and everything we > think of as intelligence. Picard accidentally killed one of them, a coupla > Borglets saw, had no concept of murder or justice, they just scooped up the > body and walked off with it to the morgue, no alarm, no nothing. > > > > You couldn?t sell ?individuals? anything of course, because they didn?t > think as an individual or have any money. So if you were somehow beamed > aboard, you might as well forget making a buttload and spend your time > looking for the other 8 of whatever 7 of 9 was one of. I bet those were > some awesome space babe sisters. > > > > spike > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Mar 25 06:52:00 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 14:52:00 +0800 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?b?SW4g4oCYS2xhcmEgYW5kIHRoZSBTdW4s4oCZIFdlIEdsaW1w?= =?utf-8?q?se_an_Eerie_Future_Through_the_Eyes_of_a_Robot?= Message-ID: I very much look forward to reading this science fiction novel, written by one of the world's finest writers... "In a store in the center of an unnamed city, humanoid robots are displayed alongside housewares and magazines. They watch the fast-moving world outside the window, anxiously awaiting the arrival of customers who might buy them and take them home. Among them is Klara, a particularly astute robot who loves the sun and wants to learn as much as possible about humans and the world they live in. So begins Kazuo Ishiguro?s new novel *Klara and the Sun* , published earlier this month. The book, told from Klara?s perspective, portrays an eerie future society in which intelligent machines and other advanced technologies have been integrated into daily life, but not everyone is happy about it. Technological unemployment, the progress of artificial intelligence , inequality, the safety and ethics of gene editing, increasing loneliness and isolation?all of which we?re grappling with today?show up in Ishiguro?s world. It?s like he hit a fast-forward button, mirroring back to us how things might play out if we don?t approach these technologies with caution and foresight. The wealthy genetically edit or ?lift? their children to set them up for success, while the poor have to make do with the regular old brains and bodies bequeathed them by evolution. Lifted and unlifted kids generally don?t mix, and this is just one of many sinister delineations between a new breed of haves and have-nots. There?s anger about robots? steady infiltration into everyday life, and questions about how similar their rights should be to those of humans. ?First they take the jobs . Then they take the seats at the theater?? one woman fumes. References to ?changes? and ?substitutions? allude to an economy where automation has eliminated millions of jobs. While ?post-employed? people squat in abandoned buildings and fringe communities arm themselves in preparation for conflict, those whose livelihoods haven?t been destroyed can afford to have live-in housekeepers and buy Artificial Friends (or AFs) for their lonely children. ?The old traditional model that we still live with now?where most of us can get some kind of paid work in exchange for our services or the goods we make?has broken down,? Ishiguro said in a podcast discussion of the novel. ?We?re not talking just about the difference between rich and poor getting bigger. We?re talking about a gap appearing between people who participate in society in an obvious way and people who do not.? https://singularityhub.com/2021/03/24/in-klara-and-the-sun-we-glimpse-an-eerie-future-through-the-eyes-of-a-robot/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Thu Mar 25 12:08:07 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 08:08:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] things to buy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 6:34 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > What's in and cool that I don't have? (no cars needed; wanted a Vespa > when I was younger but no longer) Isn't this a ridiculous problem to > have? I am going to set a limit of $2500. Very flexible. > game console with VR headset camera drone bitcoin Stressless chair IR sauna -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Mar 25 12:58:05 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 05:58:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] favor for a friend In-Reply-To: References: <008d01d72135$7a5a4ac0$6f0ee040$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005601d72176$7ff8ac60$7fea0520$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] favor for a friend On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 10:24 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: True. BUT DON?T DO IT! Giovanni, don?t do it man. It?s illegal! Or if not, it?s highly unadvisable. ? Some images are illegal, such as some types of pornography depicting minors for instance, and there are an infinite number of possible such images one would imagine, so all of those would be considered illegal, and all strings of bits, regardless of how long, will eventually be produced. Therefore? that pi-calculating algorithm will eventually produce child pornography. >?Merely generating the bits is insufficient to violate the law. One must also isolate the bits, identifying them as a discrete thing. So long as the bits are unknown in a string of data, they have no legal meaning - and thus, are not illegal in that state. Of course. But that is why I went on to talk about evil AI. Your pi calculator generates one of those bastards, in there with the offensive images, starts sending them to your boss, you?re fired, now ya really have troubles, in addition to having spawned a self-replicating planet destroying monster. Pi generators are not something to be trifled with, even if it requires adding a useless clause to avoid ending a sentence with a preposition. However there is a benefit, for my son was running one last week for pi day. As I was explaining it to him, he pointed out to me something that I have never heard in all my long life. We are celebrating the wrong day. March 14 isn?t really 3.1416? months, since it is only about 2.5 months. Pi day should be around the 4th of April, if we interpret it as pi months. But if you realize this and want to celebrate a second pi day, back away from that pi calculator. Evil lurks in that path. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Mar 25 16:14:49 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 09:14:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] favor for a friend In-Reply-To: <005601d72176$7ff8ac60$7fea0520$@rainier66.com> References: <008d01d72135$7a5a4ac0$6f0ee040$@rainier66.com> <005601d72176$7ff8ac60$7fea0520$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 6:01 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] favor for a friend > > > > On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 10:24 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > True. BUT DON?T DO IT! Giovanni, don?t do it man. It?s illegal! Or if > not, it?s highly unadvisable. > > ? > > Some images are illegal, such as some types of pornography depicting > minors for instance, and there are an infinite number of possible such > images one would imagine, so all of those would be considered illegal, and > all strings of bits, regardless of how long, will eventually be produced. > Therefore? that pi-calculating algorithm will eventually produce child > pornography. > > > > >?Merely generating the bits is insufficient to violate the law. One must > also isolate the bits, identifying them as a discrete thing. So long as > the bits are unknown in a string of data, they have no legal meaning - and > thus, are not illegal in that state. > > > > > > Of course. But that is why I went on to talk about evil AI. Your pi > calculator generates one of those bastards, in there with the offensive > images, starts sending them to your boss > Someone - AI or otherwise - would have to identify the images within the string in order to separate and send them. Please stop overlooking this step. Doing so ruins your attempt at a joke. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Mar 25 17:35:24 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 10:35:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] favor for a friend In-Reply-To: References: <008d01d72135$7a5a4ac0$6f0ee040$@rainier66.com> <005601d72176$7ff8ac60$7fea0520$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003401d7219d$3d2fe4d0$b78fae70$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] favor for a friend ? >?Someone - AI or otherwise - would have to identify the images within the string in order to separate and send them. >?Please stop overlooking this step. Doing so ruins your attempt at a joke. Adrian, never mind the images. If we accidentally spawn an evil AI, images are the least of our worries. I haven?t followed Eliezer?s work for a few years now, but he really used to obsess about this kind of thing, a software version of what plenty of us think was going on in that virus lab in Wuhan in 2019. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Mar 25 17:43:55 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 10:43:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] favor for a friend In-Reply-To: <003401d7219d$3d2fe4d0$b78fae70$@rainier66.com> References: <008d01d72135$7a5a4ac0$6f0ee040$@rainier66.com> <005601d72176$7ff8ac60$7fea0520$@rainier66.com> <003401d7219d$3d2fe4d0$b78fae70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 10:38 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Adrian, never mind the images. If we accidentally spawn an evil AI, > images are the least of our worries. > On that front, I'm far more concerned about AI-enabled evil humans than an evil AI. There is ample evidence to show that humans can supply pure, refined evil. Imagine a servant AI that can do any well-enough-defined task almost instantly, so long as it's only dealing with pure information that it has access to. Now imagine an evil - genocidal, perhaps - human who gets very proficient about imagining and defining such tasks, including having the AI research and find what information it can access. This possibility isi much closer than an AI that is evil in and of itself, no? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Mar 25 17:59:31 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 17:59:31 +0000 Subject: [ExI] favor for a friend In-Reply-To: References: <008d01d72135$7a5a4ac0$6f0ee040$@rainier66.com> <005601d72176$7ff8ac60$7fea0520$@rainier66.com> <003401d7219d$3d2fe4d0$b78fae70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Mar 2021 at 17:47, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > On that front, I'm far more concerned about AI-enabled evil humans than an evil AI. There is ample evidence to show that humans can supply pure, refined evil. > > Imagine a servant AI that can do any well-enough-defined task almost instantly, so long as it's only dealing with pure information that it has access to. Now imagine an evil - genocidal, perhaps - human who gets very proficient about imagining and defining such tasks, including having the AI research and find what information it can access. This possibility isi much closer than an AI that is evil in and of itself, no? > _______________________________________________ Starting with US, Russia and China adding AI to their deadly weapons so that the weapon can decide to kill without human intervention. It has to be done that way because waiting for human decision would be too slow - hundreds of times too slow. BillK From natasha at natashavita-more.com Thu Mar 25 18:59:49 2021 From: natasha at natashavita-more.com (Natasha natashavita-more.com) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 18:59:49 +0000 Subject: [ExI] ARTS - Extropian poetry In-Reply-To: <3C990932-843F-4449-9CC6-FAE725DEC4C9@hxcore.ol> References: , <3C990932-843F-4449-9CC6-FAE725DEC4C9@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: Fascinating narrative/theme. I enjoyed reading a bit on your website. Best, Natasha Dr. Natasha Vita-More, PhD Lead Scientific Researcher, Neuron Preservation Senior Fellow, Center for Future Mind [cid:b76a3d9e-0ec3-45a4-8fc9-0ffe38013da7] ________________________________ From: extropy-chat on behalf of Ivor Brians via extropy-chat Sent: Tuesday, February 2, 2021 9:18 AM To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Cc: Ivor Brians Subject: Re: [ExI] ARTS - Extropian poetry All, as a further introduction? When I first looked up ?extropian? years ago, I thought, ?that?s me!? I had always been introspective and would ponder why things are the way they are and why they are not better. I started exploring Eastern philosophies, read some sci-fi, looked at some writings of Nietzsche and thought of our continuing technological advances and thought, ?the answers are all here??some covered in dogma and corrupted or mistranslated or misunderstood or resisted, but the they are all here. So now, my external purpose is to in some way, even a small incremental way, to help move the human world onto a more sustainable and just path (just for all life). I?m working on my first book, sort of a Rainforest-meets-advanced aliens with a scientist hero, indefinite lifespans, a sister-world where residents grow blank-brain clones for transferring their consciousness to every few decades (and enjoy whatever genetic enhancements they choose which have been recently developed). It is a sort of save-the-world book in which I?ve woven a set of principles which I believe, if followed, would end all war. I am also a tropical rainforest conservationist and advocate, a ?haunter of forests? or ?nemophilist?. Well, that?s all for now (sorry, you asked for it?) ?? Ivor Peter Brians -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-z2vtvxha.png Type: image/png Size: 13868 bytes Desc: Outlook-z2vtvxha.png URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Mar 25 20:10:06 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 15:10:06 -0500 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?b?SW4g4oCYS2xhcmEgYW5kIHRoZSBTdW4s4oCZIFdlIEdsaW1w?= =?utf-8?q?se_an_Eerie_Future_Through_the_Eyes_of_a_Robot?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 1:50 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I very much look forward to reading this science fiction novel, written by > one of the world's finest writers... > > "In a store in the center of an unnamed city, humanoid robots are > displayed alongside housewares and magazines. They watch the fast-moving > world outside the window, anxiously awaiting the arrival of customers who > might buy them and take them home. Among them is Klara, a particularly > astute robot who loves the sun and wants to learn as much as possible about > humans and the world they live in. > > So begins Kazuo Ishiguro?s new novel *Klara and the Sun* > , > published earlier this month. The book, told from Klara?s perspective, > portrays an eerie future society in which intelligent machines and other > advanced technologies have been integrated into daily life, but not > everyone is happy about it. > > Technological unemployment, the progress of artificial intelligence > , inequality, > the safety and ethics of gene editing, increasing loneliness and > isolation?all of which we?re grappling with today?show up in Ishiguro?s > world. It?s like he hit a fast-forward button, mirroring back to us how > things might play out if we don?t approach these technologies with caution > and foresight. > > The wealthy genetically edit or ?lift? their children to set them up for > success, while the poor have to make do with the regular old brains and > bodies bequeathed them by evolution. Lifted and unlifted kids generally > don?t mix, and this is just one of many sinister delineations between a new > breed of haves and have-nots. > > There?s anger about robots? steady infiltration into everyday life, and > questions about how similar their rights should be to those of humans. > ?First they take the jobs > . > Then they take the seats at the theater?? one woman fumes. > > References to ?changes? and ?substitutions? allude to an economy where > automation has eliminated > millions of jobs. While ?post-employed? people squat in abandoned buildings > and fringe communities arm themselves in preparation for conflict, those > whose livelihoods haven?t been destroyed can afford to have live-in > housekeepers and buy Artificial Friends (or AFs) for their lonely children. > > ?The old traditional model that we still live with now?where most of us > can get some kind of paid work in exchange for our services or the goods we > make?has broken down,? Ishiguro said in a podcast discussion > > of the novel. ?We?re not talking just about the difference between rich and > poor getting bigger. We?re talking about a gap appearing between people who > participate in society in an obvious way and people who do not.? Leading > to the idea of just paying people to do nothing, so they won't revolt > bill w > > > https://singularityhub.com/2021/03/24/in-klara-and-the-sun-we-glimpse-an-eerie-future-through-the-eyes-of-a-robot/ > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Mar 25 20:14:55 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 13:14:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] favor for a friend In-Reply-To: References: <008d01d72135$7a5a4ac0$6f0ee040$@rainier66.com> <005601d72176$7ff8ac60$7fea0520$@rainier66.com> <003401d7219d$3d2fe4d0$b78fae70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003401d721b3$863c4b80$92b4e280$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] favor for a friend >?Imagine a servant AI that can do any well-enough-defined task almost instantly, so long as it's only dealing with pure information that it has access to. Now imagine an evil - genocidal, perhaps - human who gets very proficient about imagining and defining such tasks, including having the AI research and find what information it can access. This possibility isi much closer than an AI that is evil in and of itself, no? Adrian Ja of course, and this is a perfect example of why military leaders all over the world are watching this very closely: the first guy who figures out a servant AI as you described can replicate it arbitrarily, and it costs her nearly nothing. That guy owns the planet. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Mar 25 20:35:37 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 15:35:37 -0500 Subject: [ExI] things to buy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I had Myst once but never used it. I loved Pong for a brief diversion. I am sure that there are games well beyond the shoot-em-up ones, but I have no idea what they are like. In any case, I would feel that I am taking time away from reading. Stressless chairs are too low. Got the Nikon. Got an email to Spike to explain bitcoin. At 79 I don't think I would make a lot of money from it, but I dunno. Hate both heat and cold (might tax my heart). Drones might interest me for ten minutes - no more. Yes, I have always been hard to please. bill w On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 7:12 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 6:34 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> What's in and cool that I don't have? (no cars needed; wanted a Vespa >> when I was younger but no longer) Isn't this a ridiculous problem to >> have? I am going to set a limit of $2500. Very flexible. >> > > game console with VR headset > camera > drone > bitcoin > Stressless chair > IR sauna > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Mar 25 20:55:08 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 15:55:08 -0500 Subject: [ExI] my toys Message-ID: I am going to get hundreds of color slides scanned and will need some kind of projector to show them. Do not want any advanced functions like streaming etc. Suggestions? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Mar 25 20:57:53 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 13:57:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] things to buy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006801d721b9$86daedc0$9490c940$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat ? Subject: Re: [ExI] things to buy >? Got an email to Spike to explain bitcoin. At 79 I don't think I would make a lot of money from it, but I dunno. .... bill w BillW, I am far from the most qualified person here to explain BitCoin, but I can offer a spin on it you might like. If you want to make money in BitCoin, the first step is to make sure you bought it a coupla years ago. I am having trouble achieving that first step. But no worries, think about it this way. What if? you did buy BitCoin or some other speculative things and you did get lucky and you did make a ton of money. The problem is that now it makes you afraid to die. You have aaaaallll this damn mooooney, you had trouble even thinking of something you really wanted, back when you only had 25 charlies to blow on some absurd thing, now you have aaaalll this moooney and you still don?t really desperately want or need anything you don?t already have. But what the hell, assume now you have so much you need to hire a coupla sturdy fellers to shovel the money out of your way so you can get to your own damn bathroom, and oooooh life is gooood? But? now all your health problems are still here, even if you can hire a coupla stunning young beauties with MDs to tend you around the clock, massage your aching muscles and your bride watches suspiciously every move they make, for they are doctors to you, but opportunistic little trollops to her, and so? you would really be trading one class of problems for another. But suppose you solve that problem somehow (such as hiring her a coupla fine young fellers with MDs) and your life is perfect. Now you have a perfect life, and death is so much scarier than before. So don?t invest in some speculative scheme that risks making you a buttload of money. You?re welcome BillW, always here, glad to help. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Mar 25 21:06:58 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 14:06:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] my toys In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008a01d721ba$cb7783c0$62668b40$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] my toys I am going to get hundreds of color slides scanned and will need some kind of projector to show them. Do not want any advanced functions like streaming etc. Suggestions? bill w Projector? Is that some kind of device from sometime in the distant past? Do explain this term ?projector? pls. If you are scanning, just show them on your TV. If you don?t have one of those nifty enormous TVs, why you primitive savage! The destitute all around you have enormous TVs, aaaahtsamaahtah you? Get hip, me lad! spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Thu Mar 25 21:14:55 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 08:14:55 +1100 Subject: [ExI] things to buy In-Reply-To: <006801d721b9$86daedc0$9490c940$@rainier66.com> References: <006801d721b9$86daedc0$9490c940$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Mar 2021 at 08:04, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *?* > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] things to buy > > > > >? Got an email to Spike to explain bitcoin. At 79 I don't think I > would make a lot of money from it, but I dunno. .... bill w > > > > BillW, I am far from the most qualified person here to explain BitCoin, > but I can offer a spin on it you might like. > > > > If you want to make money in BitCoin, the first step is to make sure you > bought it a coupla years ago. I am having trouble achieving that first > step. > > > > But no worries, think about it this way. What if? you did buy BitCoin or > some other speculative things and you did get lucky and you did make a ton > of money. The problem is that now it makes you afraid to die. You have > aaaaallll this damn mooooney, you had trouble even thinking of something > you really wanted, back when you only had 25 charlies to blow on some > absurd thing, now you have aaaalll this moooney and you still don?t really > desperately want or need anything you don?t already have. > > > > But what the hell, assume now you have so much you need to hire a coupla > sturdy fellers to shovel the money out of your way so you can get to your > own damn bathroom, and oooooh life is gooood? But? now all your health > problems are still here, even if you can hire a coupla stunning young > beauties with MDs to tend you around the clock, massage your aching muscles > and your bride watches suspiciously every move they make, for they are > doctors to you, but opportunistic little trollops to her, and so? you would > really be trading one class of problems for another. > > > > But suppose you solve that problem somehow (such as hiring her a coupla > fine young fellers with MDs) and your life is perfect. Now you have a > perfect life, and death is so much scarier than before. > > > > So don?t invest in some speculative scheme that risks making you a > buttload of money. You?re welcome BillW, always here, glad to help. > If you?re going to wake up from cryptic sleep in a hundred years, owning some Bitcoin would be a good way to ensure that you have some money. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gsantostasi at gmail.com Thu Mar 25 22:45:59 2021 From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 15:45:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] favor for a friend In-Reply-To: <003401d721b3$863c4b80$92b4e280$@rainier66.com> References: <008d01d72135$7a5a4ac0$6f0ee040$@rainier66.com> <005601d72176$7ff8ac60$7fea0520$@rainier66.com> <003401d7219d$3d2fe4d0$b78fae70$@rainier66.com> <003401d721b3$863c4b80$92b4e280$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The discussion is really going in a different direction from the original topic. Seriously what you guys think is the reason math works so well in the natural world, even if it is a pretty crazy abstraction (real number having infinite decimal places, imaginary numbers being a solution in physics equations representing anti-matter like in the Dirac equation and so on)? PS Now that Spike told me not to do it I'm going to do the Pi experiment for sure, in fact, I will even try the Euler number. YOLO Giovanni On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 1:20 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] favor for a friend > > > > >?Imagine a servant AI that can do any well-enough-defined task almost > instantly, so long as it's only dealing with pure information that it has > access to. Now imagine an evil - genocidal, perhaps - human who gets very > proficient about imagining and defining such tasks, including having the AI > research and find what information it can access. This possibility isi > much closer than an AI that is evil in and of itself, no? Adrian > > > > > > > > Ja of course, and this is a perfect example of why military leaders all > over the world are watching this very closely: the first guy who figures > out a servant AI as you described can replicate it arbitrarily, and it > costs her nearly nothing. That guy owns the planet. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gsantostasi at gmail.com Thu Mar 25 22:48:09 2021 From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 15:48:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] favor for a friend In-Reply-To: References: <008d01d72135$7a5a4ac0$6f0ee040$@rainier66.com> <005601d72176$7ff8ac60$7fea0520$@rainier66.com> <003401d7219d$3d2fe4d0$b78fae70$@rainier66.com> <003401d721b3$863c4b80$92b4e280$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: By the way, have you ever watched this movie: Pi, by Aronofsky? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0SC582sJvE On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 3:45 PM Giovanni Santostasi wrote: > The discussion is really going in a different direction from the original > topic. Seriously what you guys think is the reason math works so well in > the natural world, even if it is a pretty crazy abstraction (real number > having infinite decimal places, imaginary numbers being a solution in > physics equations representing anti-matter like in the Dirac equation and > so on)? > > PS > Now that Spike told me not to do it I'm going to do the Pi experiment for > sure, in fact, I will even try the Euler number. YOLO > > > Giovanni > > > > > On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 1:20 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf >> Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat >> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] favor for a friend >> >> >> >> >?Imagine a servant AI that can do any well-enough-defined task almost >> instantly, so long as it's only dealing with pure information that it has >> access to. Now imagine an evil - genocidal, perhaps - human who gets very >> proficient about imagining and defining such tasks, including having the AI >> research and find what information it can access. This possibility isi >> much closer than an AI that is evil in and of itself, no? Adrian >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Ja of course, and this is a perfect example of why military leaders all >> over the world are watching this very closely: the first guy who figures >> out a servant AI as you described can replicate it arbitrarily, and it >> costs her nearly nothing. That guy owns the planet. >> >> >> >> spike >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Mar 25 22:54:39 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 17:54:39 -0500 Subject: [ExI] my toys In-Reply-To: <008a01d721ba$cb7783c0$62668b40$@rainier66.com> References: <008a01d721ba$cb7783c0$62668b40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Got it. I have no idea how to do that - will find out. I do have an up to date TV or I would be getting one. Have you seen this done? How is the resolution? Colors? They do make projectors nowadays for presentations to CEOS and the like. Not your old-fashioned one. bill w On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 4:07 PM wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* [ExI] my toys > > > > I am going to get hundreds of color slides scanned and will need some kind > of projector to show them. Do not want any advanced functions like > streaming etc. > > > > Suggestions? bill w > > > > Projector? Is that some kind of device from sometime in the distant > past? Do explain this term ?projector? pls. > > > > If you are scanning, just show them on your TV. If you don?t have one of > those nifty enormous TVs, why you primitive savage! The destitute all > around you have enormous TVs, aaaahtsamaahtah you? > > > > Get hip, me lad! > > > > spike > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Mar 25 22:59:37 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 17:59:37 -0500 Subject: [ExI] things to buy In-Reply-To: <006801d721b9$86daedc0$9490c940$@rainier66.com> References: <006801d721b9$86daedc0$9490c940$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, I do have reason to try to make a bit more money than my pension brings in. After getting my second divorce I married a millionaire and retired. I signed document saying that my pension will end when I die - she won't need it. Now my current wife Roz will be left with no pension of her own and none of mine. She will have wonderful health insurance - the best. Her mother lived to 96 (died this month), so she may last quite a while and I would like for her to have as much money as possible without endangering what we have now (abou 50K). I do appreciate the humor though. Do you have any take on how risky bitcoin is? bill w On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 4:05 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *?* > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] things to buy > > > > >? Got an email to Spike to explain bitcoin. At 79 I don't think I > would make a lot of money from it, but I dunno. .... bill w > > > > BillW, I am far from the most qualified person here to explain BitCoin, > but I can offer a spin on it you might like. > > > > If you want to make money in BitCoin, the first step is to make sure you > bought it a coupla years ago. I am having trouble achieving that first > step. > > > > But no worries, think about it this way. What if? you did buy BitCoin or > some other speculative things and you did get lucky and you did make a ton > of money. The problem is that now it makes you afraid to die. You have > aaaaallll this damn mooooney, you had trouble even thinking of something > you really wanted, back when you only had 25 charlies to blow on some > absurd thing, now you have aaaalll this moooney and you still don?t really > desperately want or need anything you don?t already have. > > > > But what the hell, assume now you have so much you need to hire a coupla > sturdy fellers to shovel the money out of your way so you can get to your > own damn bathroom, and oooooh life is gooood? But? now all your health > problems are still here, even if you can hire a coupla stunning young > beauties with MDs to tend you around the clock, massage your aching muscles > and your bride watches suspiciously every move they make, for they are > doctors to you, but opportunistic little trollops to her, and so? you would > really be trading one class of problems for another. > > > > But suppose you solve that problem somehow (such as hiring her a coupla > fine young fellers with MDs) and your life is perfect. Now you have a > perfect life, and death is so much scarier than before. > > > > So don?t invest in some speculative scheme that risks making you a > buttload of money. You?re welcome BillW, always here, glad to help. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Mar 25 23:06:19 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 16:06:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] favor for a friend In-Reply-To: References: <008d01d72135$7a5a4ac0$6f0ee040$@rainier66.com> <005601d72176$7ff8ac60$7fea0520$@rainier66.com> <003401d7219d$3d2fe4d0$b78fae70$@rainier66.com> <003401d721b3$863c4b80$92b4e280$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003301d721cb$7820eb60$6862c220$@rainier66.com> ?.> On Behalf Of Giovanni Santostasi via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] favor for a friend ? PS >?Now that Spike told me not to do it I'm going to do the Pi experiment for sure, in fact, I will even try the Euler number. YOLO Giovanni Sure, and if you accidentally unleash an evil AI that destroys society and all of mankind, I?ll be the first to say I told ya so. On the other hand, if you accidentally generate a piece of software that makes you a buttload of money, remember your old buddy spike down here at the foot of the money pile you are sitting. Do toss me a sack. Paper money only please. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Thu Mar 25 23:27:02 2021 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 19:27:02 -0400 Subject: [ExI] my toys In-Reply-To: References: <008a01d721ba$cb7783c0$62668b40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Bill- No need for a projector unless you really want to show them at an extremely large size. Once you have the slides scanned, you just need to hook up your computer to the TV (and there are other ways to do it wirelessly). The resolution on any newer TV will be at least 1080i on the horizontal (1920x1080), but if it was purchased recently, you likely have 3840x2160 resolution (4K). Most computers can drive 4K signal these days. A lot of newer TVs will even read images off of a USB flash drive. If you need any help figuring it out and don't have someone to help, you can contact me offlist. On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 7:02 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Got it. I have no idea how to do that - will find out. I do have an up > to date TV or I would be getting one. Have you seen this done? How is the > resolution? Colors? > > They do make projectors nowadays for presentations to CEOS and the like. > Not your old-fashioned one. > bill w > > On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 4:07 PM wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >> *Subject:* [ExI] my toys >> >> >> >> I am going to get hundreds of color slides scanned and will need some >> kind of projector to show them. Do not want any advanced functions like >> streaming etc. >> >> >> >> Suggestions? bill w >> >> >> >> Projector? Is that some kind of device from sometime in the distant >> past? Do explain this term ?projector? pls. >> >> >> >> If you are scanning, just show them on your TV. If you don?t have one of >> those nifty enormous TVs, why you primitive savage! The destitute all >> around you have enormous TVs, aaaahtsamaahtah you? >> >> >> >> Get hip, me lad! >> >> >> >> spike >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Mar 25 23:33:07 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 16:33:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] things to buy In-Reply-To: References: <006801d721b9$86daedc0$9490c940$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005501d721cf$361b1390$a2513ab0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2021 4:00 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: Re: [ExI] things to buy >?Spike, I do have reason to try to make a bit more money than my pension brings in. After getting my second divorce I married a millionaire and retired. I signed document saying that my pension will end when I die - she won't need it. Now my current wife Roz will be left with no pension of her own and none of mine. She will have wonderful health insurance - the best. Her mother lived to 96 (died this month), so she may last quite a while and I would like for her to have as much money as possible without endangering what we have now (abou 50K). I do appreciate the humor though. >?Do you have any take on how risky bitcoin is? bill w Regarding Bitcoin, that?s anybody?s guess. Since it creates no actual products, doesn?t actually manufacture anything, its value is just a collective public opinion on what it is worth. So? I don?t know, but neither does anyone else. My own opinion: that ship has sailed. I might be wrong of course, but if it goes down, remember you heard it here first. If it goes up, well, think of how much less money you lost than you would have lost had you bought in a coupla yrs ago. It?s all in your attitude, me lad. A possible solution to your potential widow: have her marry a millionaire and keep you hidden away as her mister. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Mar 25 23:43:42 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 18:43:42 -0500 Subject: [ExI] things to buy In-Reply-To: <005501d721cf$361b1390$a2513ab0$@rainier66.com> References: <006801d721b9$86daedc0$9490c940$@rainier66.com> <005501d721cf$361b1390$a2513ab0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I will never catch up with tech - too far behind, reading my books and listening to my stereo. But NFTs are in the news and are making elephant buttloads of money. 70 million dollars for a digital work. Of course the art world has always been a crazy place. bill w On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 6:40 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Thursday, March 25, 2021 4:00 PM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] things to buy > > > > >?Spike, I do have reason to try to make a bit more money than my > pension brings in. After getting my second divorce I married a millionaire > and retired. I signed document saying that my pension will end when I die > - she won't need it. Now my current wife Roz will be left with no pension > of her own and none of mine. She will have wonderful health insurance - > the best. Her mother lived to 96 (died this month), so she may last quite > a while and I would like for her to have as much money as possible without > endangering what we have now (abou 50K). I do appreciate the humor > though. > > > > >?Do you have any take on how risky bitcoin is? bill w > > > > > > Regarding Bitcoin, that?s anybody?s guess. Since it creates no actual > products, doesn?t actually manufacture anything, its value is just a > collective public opinion on what it is worth. So? I don?t know, but > neither does anyone else. > > > > My own opinion: that ship has sailed. I might be wrong of course, but if > it goes down, remember you heard it here first. If it goes up, well, think > of how much less money you lost than you would have lost had you bought in > a coupla yrs ago. It?s all in your attitude, me lad. > > > > A possible solution to your potential widow: have her marry a millionaire > and keep you hidden away as her mister. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Mar 25 23:43:52 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 16:43:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] my toys In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The phrase you are looking for is "pocket projector": https://www.google.com/search?q=pocket+projector . Assuming you can get the slides onto a flash drive, which should be easy enough. On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 1:57 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I am going to get hundreds of color slides scanned and will need some kind > of projector to show them. Do not want any advanced functions like > streaming etc. > > Suggestions? bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Mar 25 23:44:39 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 18:44:39 -0500 Subject: [ExI] my toys In-Reply-To: References: <008a01d721ba$cb7783c0$62668b40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Dylan, you guys are great. Now if only you have some psychological questions for me, I'd be able to pay back for a lot of the help I have gotten from chat members. You don't have to be neurotic or psychotic to ask me a question: but it helps! bill w On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 6:33 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Bill- > > No need for a projector unless you really want to show them at an > extremely large size. Once you have the slides scanned, you just need to > hook up your computer to the TV (and there are other ways to do it > wirelessly). The resolution on any newer TV will be at least 1080i on the > horizontal (1920x1080), but if it was purchased recently, you likely have > 3840x2160 resolution (4K). Most computers can drive 4K signal these days. > > A lot of newer TVs will even read images off of a USB flash drive. > > If you need any help figuring it out and don't have someone to help, you > can contact me offlist. > > > On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 7:02 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Got it. I have no idea how to do that - will find out. I do have an up >> to date TV or I would be getting one. Have you seen this done? How is the >> resolution? Colors? >> >> They do make projectors nowadays for presentations to CEOS and the like. >> Not your old-fashioned one. >> bill w >> >> On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 4:07 PM wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >>> *Subject:* [ExI] my toys >>> >>> >>> >>> I am going to get hundreds of color slides scanned and will need some >>> kind of projector to show them. Do not want any advanced functions like >>> streaming etc. >>> >>> >>> >>> Suggestions? bill w >>> >>> >>> >>> Projector? Is that some kind of device from sometime in the distant >>> past? Do explain this term ?projector? pls. >>> >>> >>> >>> If you are scanning, just show them on your TV. If you don?t have one >>> of those nifty enormous TVs, why you primitive savage! The destitute all >>> around you have enormous TVs, aaaahtsamaahtah you? >>> >>> >>> >>> Get hip, me lad! >>> >>> >>> >>> spike >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gadersd at gmail.com Thu Mar 25 23:51:52 2021 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Hermes Trismegistus) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 19:51:52 -0400 Subject: [ExI] things to buy In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <2F728F7C-6032-4482-BB0A-92E2F239986E@hxcore.ol> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 26 00:15:43 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 19:15:43 -0500 Subject: [ExI] things to buy In-Reply-To: <2F728F7C-6032-4482-BB0A-92E2F239986E@hxcore.ol> References: <2F728F7C-6032-4482-BB0A-92E2F239986E@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: Great idea. Now if I can convince my wife to give up some of the money she wants to donate to cat shelters...... bill w On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 7:09 PM Hermes Trismegistus via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > How about a donation to life extension research? > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Mar 26 01:03:25 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 18:03:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] things to buy In-Reply-To: References: <2F728F7C-6032-4482-BB0A-92E2F239986E@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: <001d01d721db$d386a4d0$7a93ee70$@rainier66.com> >>?How about a donation to life extension research? _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >?Great idea. Now if I can convince my wife to give up some of the money she wants to donate to cat shelters...... billw BillW, often the best life extension is to do as your bride wishes. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Fri Mar 26 10:31:53 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 06:31:53 -0400 Subject: [ExI] things to buy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 4:39 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I had Myst once but never used it. I loved Pong for a brief diversion. I > am sure that there are games well beyond the shoot-em-up ones, but I have > no idea what they are like. In any case, I would feel that I am taking > time away from reading. > I was thinking more along the lines of virtual travel, but there are lots of things you can do with a VR platform besides games. > Got an email to Spike to explain bitcoin. At 79 I don't think I would > make a lot of money from it, but I dunno. > Bitcoin has gone from 6700 to 53000 in the past year. The bottom could drop out tomorrow, but, if you've got 2500 to burn, that wouldn't be a horrible thing to do with it. Hate both heat and cold (might tax my heart). > You could ask your doctor, but if you don't like it, you don't like it. There's evidence that it's cardio beneficial. > Drones might interest me for ten minutes - no more. > Have you never tried something new and been surprised by it? The tech itself isn't that interesting to me, but being able to fly, in a sense, would be pretty freaking cool. Exploring natural sites like waterfalls and cliffs would be neat, as would abandoned buildings. > Yes, I have always been hard to please. > I wasn't so much trying to please you as answer your question. :-) -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gsantostasi at gmail.com Fri Mar 26 11:05:27 2021 From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 04:05:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] favor for a friend In-Reply-To: <003301d721cb$7820eb60$6862c220$@rainier66.com> References: <008d01d72135$7a5a4ac0$6f0ee040$@rainier66.com> <005601d72176$7ff8ac60$7fea0520$@rainier66.com> <003401d7219d$3d2fe4d0$b78fae70$@rainier66.com> <003401d721b3$863c4b80$92b4e280$@rainier66.com> <003301d721cb$7820eb60$6862c220$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I have already created software that makes a buttload of money. My trading algos do more than 10x in less than 2 years. Meet the Optimizer: https://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://github.com/gsantostasi/AlphaHubTrader/blob/main/OPTIMIZER1.html Giovanni On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 4:24 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?.*> *On Behalf Of *Giovanni Santostasi via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] favor for a friend > > > > ? > > PS > >?Now that Spike told me not to do it I'm going to do the Pi experiment > for sure, in fact, I will even try the Euler number. YOLO > > > Giovanni > > > > > > > > Sure, and if you accidentally unleash an evil AI that destroys society and > all of mankind, I?ll be the first to say I told ya so. On the other hand, > if you accidentally generate a piece of software that makes you a buttload > of money, remember your old buddy spike down here at the foot of the money > pile you are sitting. Do toss me a sack. Paper money only please. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 26 14:23:18 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 09:23:18 -0500 Subject: [ExI] things to buy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well Dave, you pleased me anyway. I was dimly aware of VR. What is better (regardless of cost): the headsets, or viewing on a big TV? If headsets, can two people wear them and experience the same thing so it can be shared? Can you easily exchange your bitcoin for regular money? Thanks again - bill w On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 5:35 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 4:39 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I had Myst once but never used it. I loved Pong for a brief diversion. >> I am sure that there are games well beyond the shoot-em-up ones, but I have >> no idea what they are like. In any case, I would feel that I am taking >> time away from reading. >> > > I was thinking more along the lines of virtual travel, but there are lots > of things you can do with a VR platform besides games. > > >> Got an email to Spike to explain bitcoin. At 79 I don't think I would >> make a lot of money from it, but I dunno. >> > > Bitcoin has gone from 6700 to 53000 in the past year. The bottom could > drop out tomorrow, but, if you've got 2500 to burn, that wouldn't be a > horrible thing to do with it. > > Hate both heat and cold (might tax my heart). >> > > You could ask your doctor, but if you don't like it, you don't like it. > There's evidence that it's cardio beneficial. > > >> Drones might interest me for ten minutes - no more. >> > > Have you never tried something new and been surprised by it? The tech > itself isn't that interesting to me, but being able to fly, in a sense, > would be pretty freaking cool. Exploring natural sites like waterfalls and > cliffs would be neat, as would abandoned buildings. > > >> Yes, I have always been hard to please. >> > > I wasn't so much trying to please you as answer your question. :-) > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Fri Mar 26 14:59:28 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 10:59:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] things to buy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 10:27 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Well Dave, you pleased me anyway. I was dimly aware of VR. What is > better (regardless of cost): the headsets, or viewing on a big TV? > Cool. :-) They're apples and oranges. TVs are a rectangle usually across the room. You watch it passively: the director of the production determines the POV. With a VR headset, the experience is immersive: you're in a 3D world and you can look in any direction and move in any direction. You wouldn't use VR to watch a movie; you'd use it to play a game, take a virtual tour of a historical site, visit a museum, etc. If headsets, can two people wear them and experience the same thing so it > can be shared? > It's probably possible to have multiple headsets, but they'd likely be independent. Both people would be in the same world, but they'd look and move independently. And they'd see each other as avatars--some rendering that may or may not look anything like the person wearing the headset. Can you easily exchange your bitcoin for regular money? > Sure, if you use an exchange like Coinbase. You tie it to your bank account and can transfer to/from your Coinbase account. Thanks again > Glad to help. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 26 15:17:47 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 10:17:47 -0500 Subject: [ExI] things to buy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So if you watch VR on headsets you have to have two copies of the program for both to watch at the same time? I really want a shared experience with my wife. bill w On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 10:03 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 10:27 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Well Dave, you pleased me anyway. I was dimly aware of VR. What is >> better (regardless of cost): the headsets, or viewing on a big TV? >> > > Cool. :-) They're apples and oranges. TVs are a rectangle usually across > the room. You watch it passively: the director of the production determines > the POV. With a VR headset, the experience is immersive: you're in a 3D > world and you can look in any direction and move in any direction. You > wouldn't use VR to watch a movie; you'd use it to play a game, take a > virtual tour of a historical site, visit a museum, etc. > > If headsets, can two people wear them and experience the same thing so >> it can be shared? >> > > It's probably possible to have multiple headsets, but they'd likely be > independent. Both people would be in the same world, but they'd look and > move independently. And they'd see each other as avatars--some rendering > that may or may not look anything like the person wearing the headset. > > Can you easily exchange your bitcoin for regular money? >> > > Sure, if you use an exchange like Coinbase. You tie it to your bank > account and can transfer to/from your Coinbase account. > > Thanks again >> > > Glad to help. > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Fri Mar 26 15:41:07 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 11:41:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] things to buy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 11:21 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > So if you watch VR on headsets you have to have two copies of the program > for both to watch at the same time? I really want a shared experience with > my wife. > I doubt that. It may be possible to slave one headset to another, so someone can ride along. I'm not a VR expert, unfortunately. Here's a list of some non-game VR apps: https://www.lifewire.com/virtual-reality-tourism-4129394 A lot of these are free, none more than $10. This quote from Forbes is appropriate: ?If at this point you still think VR is a gimmick, or a fad, it?s either because you haven?t tried it at all, or you haven?t tried the right experience. Screenshots can?t do this justice. Video can?t do this justice. My words, no matter how descriptive and colorful and emotional I make them, can?t do this justice.? https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2016/03/16/the-everest-vr-experience-on-htc-vive-is-so-terrifying-i-couldnt-finish-it/?sh=4130d51a14ec -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Mar 26 15:42:09 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 08:42:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] favor for a friend In-Reply-To: References: <008d01d72135$7a5a4ac0$6f0ee040$@rainier66.com> <005601d72176$7ff8ac60$7fea0520$@rainier66.com> <003401d7219d$3d2fe4d0$b78fae70$@rainier66.com> <003401d721b3$863c4b80$92b4e280$@rainier66.com> <003301d721cb$7820eb60$6862c220$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: How can the rest of us invest money using that algorithm? On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 4:08 AM Giovanni Santostasi via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I have already created software that makes a buttload of money. > My trading algos do more than 10x in less than 2 years. Meet the Optimizer: > > > https://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://github.com/gsantostasi/AlphaHubTrader/blob/main/OPTIMIZER1.html > > Giovanni > > > On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 4:24 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> *?.*> *On Behalf Of *Giovanni Santostasi via extropy-chat >> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] favor for a friend >> >> >> >> ? >> >> PS >> >?Now that Spike told me not to do it I'm going to do the Pi experiment >> for sure, in fact, I will even try the Euler number. YOLO >> >> >> Giovanni >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sure, and if you accidentally unleash an evil AI that destroys society >> and all of mankind, I?ll be the first to say I told ya so. On the other >> hand, if you accidentally generate a piece of software that makes you a >> buttload of money, remember your old buddy spike down here at the foot of >> the money pile you are sitting. Do toss me a sack. Paper money only >> please. >> >> >> >> spike >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Mar 26 15:44:03 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 08:44:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] things to buy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That depends on what you mean by "two copies". Some VR programs are designed exclusively for single person use and can not be shared. Other VR programs are designed to be shared. You have to check the specific program you're using. On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 8:20 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > So if you watch VR on headsets you have to have two copies of the program > for both to watch at the same time? I really want a shared experience with > my wife. bill w > > On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 10:03 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 10:27 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Well Dave, you pleased me anyway. I was dimly aware of VR. What is >>> better (regardless of cost): the headsets, or viewing on a big TV? >>> >> >> Cool. :-) They're apples and oranges. TVs are a rectangle usually across >> the room. You watch it passively: the director of the production determines >> the POV. With a VR headset, the experience is immersive: you're in a 3D >> world and you can look in any direction and move in any direction. You >> wouldn't use VR to watch a movie; you'd use it to play a game, take a >> virtual tour of a historical site, visit a museum, etc. >> >> If headsets, can two people wear them and experience the same thing so >>> it can be shared? >>> >> >> It's probably possible to have multiple headsets, but they'd likely be >> independent. Both people would be in the same world, but they'd look and >> move independently. And they'd see each other as avatars--some rendering >> that may or may not look anything like the person wearing the headset. >> >> Can you easily exchange your bitcoin for regular money? >>> >> >> Sure, if you use an exchange like Coinbase. You tie it to your bank >> account and can transfer to/from your Coinbase account. >> >> Thanks again >>> >> >> Glad to help. >> >> -Dave >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gadersd at gmail.com Fri Mar 26 16:00:20 2021 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Hermes Trismegistus) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 12:00:20 -0400 Subject: [ExI] favor for a friend In-Reply-To: References: <008d01d72135$7a5a4ac0$6f0ee040$@rainier66.com> <005601d72176$7ff8ac60$7fea0520$@rainier66.com> <003401d7219d$3d2fe4d0$b78fae70$@rainier66.com> <003401d721b3$863c4b80$92b4e280$@rainier66.com> <003301d721cb$7820eb60$6862c220$@rainier66.com>, Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 26 16:22:35 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 11:22:35 -0500 Subject: [ExI] things to buy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: thanks! bill w On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 10:59 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > That depends on what you mean by "two copies". Some VR programs are > designed exclusively for single person use and can not be shared. Other VR > programs are designed to be shared. You have to check the specific program > you're using. > > On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 8:20 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> So if you watch VR on headsets you have to have two copies of the program >> for both to watch at the same time? I really want a shared experience with >> my wife. bill w >> >> On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 10:03 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 10:27 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Well Dave, you pleased me anyway. I was dimly aware of VR. What is >>>> better (regardless of cost): the headsets, or viewing on a big TV? >>>> >>> >>> Cool. :-) They're apples and oranges. TVs are a rectangle usually across >>> the room. You watch it passively: the director of the production determines >>> the POV. With a VR headset, the experience is immersive: you're in a 3D >>> world and you can look in any direction and move in any direction. You >>> wouldn't use VR to watch a movie; you'd use it to play a game, take a >>> virtual tour of a historical site, visit a museum, etc. >>> >>> If headsets, can two people wear them and experience the same thing so >>>> it can be shared? >>>> >>> >>> It's probably possible to have multiple headsets, but they'd likely be >>> independent. Both people would be in the same world, but they'd look and >>> move independently. And they'd see each other as avatars--some rendering >>> that may or may not look anything like the person wearing the headset. >>> >>> Can you easily exchange your bitcoin for regular money? >>>> >>> >>> Sure, if you use an exchange like Coinbase. You tie it to your bank >>> account and can transfer to/from your Coinbase account. >>> >>> Thanks again >>>> >>> >>> Glad to help. >>> >>> -Dave >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gsantostasi at gmail.com Fri Mar 26 19:58:55 2021 From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 12:58:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] favor for a friend In-Reply-To: References: <008d01d72135$7a5a4ac0$6f0ee040$@rainier66.com> <005601d72176$7ff8ac60$7fea0520$@rainier66.com> <003401d7219d$3d2fe4d0$b78fae70$@rainier66.com> <003401d721b3$863c4b80$92b4e280$@rainier66.com> <003301d721cb$7820eb60$6862c220$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Adrian, Instruction and automatic Trader can be downloaded here. https://github.com/gsantostasi/AlphaHubTrader I will send an email later with more info if the group is interested. Giovanni On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 8:51 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > How can the rest of us invest money using that algorithm? > > On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 4:08 AM Giovanni Santostasi via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I have already created software that makes a buttload of money. >> My trading algos do more than 10x in less than 2 years. Meet the >> Optimizer: >> >> >> https://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://github.com/gsantostasi/AlphaHubTrader/blob/main/OPTIMIZER1.html >> >> Giovanni >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 4:24 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *?.*> *On Behalf Of *Giovanni Santostasi via extropy-chat >>> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] favor for a friend >>> >>> >>> >>> ? >>> >>> PS >>> >?Now that Spike told me not to do it I'm going to do the Pi experiment >>> for sure, in fact, I will even try the Euler number. YOLO >>> >>> >>> Giovanni >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sure, and if you accidentally unleash an evil AI that destroys society >>> and all of mankind, I?ll be the first to say I told ya so. On the other >>> hand, if you accidentally generate a piece of software that makes you a >>> buttload of money, remember your old buddy spike down here at the foot of >>> the money pile you are sitting. Do toss me a sack. Paper money only >>> please. >>> >>> >>> >>> spike >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Fri Mar 26 21:10:49 2021 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 15:10:49 -0600 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] favor for a friend In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Seems consistent with the fact that real things can have intrinsic colors, like redness and greenness, while nothing in math does. You need a dictionary to get from one to the other. On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 10:36 AM William Flynn Wallace wrote: > He wanted to know the meaning of this statement: > > Mathematics is true, but it doesn't exist." > > bill w > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "extropolis" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAO%2BxQEaB9zYw2tP%2B_5YaCgB_3LC1DNcVx8X84JUJkszjXk-C-w%40mail.gmail.com > > . > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Fri Mar 26 22:49:35 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 22:49:35 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Diaspora In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 24/03/2021 22:53, billw wrote: > Just 'finished' this book by GReg Egan,? Content:? speculative fixed > point topology, speculative?nuclear physics, multiple universes, etc. > > I estimate that I skipped about 85% of the book - a first for me. > Probably more like 90% > > Hard?? Nope - adamantine.? Way, way over my head.? Characters aren't > interesting either.? But I plugged away just to find out if I could > understand any of it.? Maybe 5%. Well, I can't say that I really understood the physics and maths in it either, but I still rate it as one of my favourite books ever. And the joke about the wormhole experiment really tickled me. It's strange how people see things so differently. I would have listed the content as: Life as an Upload, branching identity, futuristic reproduction and upbringing, existential threat writ large, elusive aliens, multiple universes, black holes, human psychology, etc. And wormholes. Ben -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 26 23:24:03 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 18:24:03 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Diaspora In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ben, I guess it was the end of the book that really turned me against it. All those universes - I just could not follow what was going on. If you have read any other books by him that weren't so heavy with technical detail and interested you, I would give them a try. This one just did not work for me. bill w On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 5:52 PM Ben via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 24/03/2021 22:53, billw wrote: > > Just 'finished' this book by GReg Egan, Content: speculative fixed point > topology, speculative nuclear physics, multiple universes, etc. > > I estimate that I skipped about 85% of the book - a first for me. > Probably more like 90% > > Hard? Nope - adamantine. Way, way over my head. Characters aren't > interesting either. But I plugged away just to find out if I could > understand any of it. Maybe 5%. > > > Well, I can't say that I really understood the physics and maths in it > either, but I still rate it as one of my favourite books ever. And the joke > about the wormhole experiment really tickled me. > > It's strange how people see things so differently. I would have listed the > content as: Life as an Upload, branching identity, futuristic reproduction > and upbringing, existential threat writ large, elusive aliens, multiple > universes, black holes, human psychology, etc. And wormholes. > > Ben > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Sat Mar 27 01:36:34 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 18:36:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Diaspora In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9abd9eac-25a2-8b6f-c63b-f93bd77df3bc@pobox.com> On 2021-3-26 16:24, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > Ben, I guess it was the end of the book that really turned me against > it.? All those universes - I just could not follow what was going on. > If you have read any other books by him that weren't so heavy with > technical detail and interested you, I would give them a try. > This one just did not work for me.? bill w For low investment: https://www.gregegan.net/BIBLIOGRAPHY/Online.html for example https://subterraneanpress.com/magazine/winter_2014/bit_players_by_greg_egan https://www.gregegan.net/INCANDESCENCE/00/Crocodile.html https://www.gregegan.net/BORDER/Complete/Border.html https://www.gregegan.net/OCEANIC/Complete/Oceanic.html -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Mar 27 09:17:06 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 05:17:06 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Mr POtato Head goes PC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There should be a transgender Mr. Potatohead! But in a way there always was... John On Fri, Feb 26, 2021, 6:08 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > https://www.cbsnews.com/news/potato-head-hasbro-rebranding-gender-neutral-name-change/ > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Mar 27 09:26:34 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 05:26:34 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Microsoft's Quantum Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I hope Microsoft corporate security can keep this development out of China's hands. Let China develop it on their own... John On Tue, Mar 9, 2021, 5:38 AM Tomaz Kristan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > New development indeed! > > > https://science.slashdot.org/story/21/03/08/2037254/microsoft-led-team-retracts-disputed-quantum-computing-paper > > On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 3:34 AM John Clark wrote: > >> There is a rumor Microsoft is just weeks away from making a major >> announcement about quantum computers. >> >> https://www.cbronline.com/news/microsoft-set-5-year-quantum-computing >> >> If true this could be huge because Microsoft is working on a topological >> quantum computer that operates by manipulating exotic Majorana fermions >> ? and ?produces far fewer errors than conventional quantum computers, if >> any quantum computer could be called conventional. >> >> John K Clark >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > > > -- > https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/ > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 27 13:37:52 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 08:37:52 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Diaspora In-Reply-To: <9abd9eac-25a2-8b6f-c63b-f93bd77df3bc@pobox.com> References: <9abd9eac-25a2-8b6f-c63b-f93bd77df3bc@pobox.com> Message-ID: Thanks anton bill w On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 8:40 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2021-3-26 16:24, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Ben, I guess it was the end of the book that really turned me against > > it. All those universes - I just could not follow what was going on. > > If you have read any other books by him that weren't so heavy with > > technical detail and interested you, I would give them a try. > > This one just did not work for me. bill w > > For low investment: > https://www.gregegan.net/BIBLIOGRAPHY/Online.html > > for example > https://subterraneanpress.com/magazine/winter_2014/bit_players_by_greg_egan > https://www.gregegan.net/INCANDESCENCE/00/Crocodile.html > https://www.gregegan.net/BORDER/Complete/Border.html > https://www.gregegan.net/OCEANIC/Complete/Oceanic.html > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gsantostasi at gmail.com Sun Mar 28 01:26:44 2021 From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 18:26:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Giovanni's trading algos (available to all) Message-ID: Hi Extropians, In a previous thread (on the riddle of why abstract mathematics works so well in the real world) Spike made a joke about me discovering (by chance) some software that makes a "buttload of money". Well, that is 50 % of my life right now (the other 50 % is bringing to market IP I developed at Northwestern to enhance memory and cognition, update on that in another email). I have worked on this project for more than 5 years. The stock algos I developed typically do 2-10x a year. I have a company called Quantonomy that posts the signals on a website (the early adopters fee is only $50 dollars). https://alphahub.us/ I have also a fully automatic Trader (a MatLab executable for window) here: https://github.com/gsantostasi/AlphaHubTrader/ in the README there are links to Quantonomy youtube channel where I explain in more detail some of the logic of the trading system. I'm available to help set up things if needed, just send me a personal message. Stats for the algos can be found on the github README page. Here an example: https://htmlpreview.github.io/https://github.com/gsantostasi/AlphaHubTrader/blob/main/QQQ1.html Giovanni -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sun Mar 28 02:35:12 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 22:35:12 -0400 Subject: [ExI] rip outlaw poet In-Reply-To: <000201d715c6$0aa71930$1ff54b90$@rainier66.com> References: <000201d715c6$0aa71930$1ff54b90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: And so he was in agonizing pain for days, but did nothing,, due to the fear of catching Covid? How could someone so smart, be so stupid? How sad and what a waste... John On Wed, Mar 10, 2021, 11:01 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > Justin Corwin Obituary - (2020) - Salt Lake City, UT - The Salt Lake > Tribune (legacy.com) > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sun Mar 28 07:44:48 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2021 17:44:48 +1000 Subject: [ExI] rip outlaw poet In-Reply-To: References: <000201d715c6$0aa71930$1ff54b90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Mar 2021 at 12:37, John Grigg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > And so he was in agonizing pain for days, but did nothing,, due to the > fear of catching Covid? How could someone so smart, be so stupid? How sad > and what a waste... > The risk of dying from established appendicitis is much greater than the risk of catching and dying from COVID in hospital, but some people just don?t understand and can?t weigh probabilities. It is a kind of cognitive deficit. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 28 13:04:04 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2021 06:04:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] rip outlaw poet In-Reply-To: References: <000201d715c6$0aa71930$1ff54b90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001801d723d2$d57555e0$806001a0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat ? >?The risk of dying from established appendicitis is much greater than the risk of catching and dying from COVID in hospital, but some people just don?t understand and can?t weigh probabilities. It is a kind of cognitive deficit. -- Stathis Papaioannou That?s part of it. Covid savaged nursing homes. In many cases the patients were transferred to the local hospital after it was too late. They expired there: hospital covid fatality rather than a nursing home-related fatality. This practice causes the hospital to appear more risky than it really is, and the nursing home less so. This statistical distortion may have resulted sick people staying away from the hospital and underestimating the risk of the nursing home, increasing fatalities at both sites. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Mar 28 15:26:26 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2021 10:26:26 -0500 Subject: [ExI] obit for a characters Message-ID: https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/clarionledger/obituary.aspx?n=larry-spencer&pid=198176005&fhid=3183 bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Sun Mar 28 16:14:15 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2021 09:14:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] rip outlaw poet In-Reply-To: References: <000201d715c6$0aa71930$1ff54b90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <8fafdfaa-00d0-1753-cbe9-c0c9c487e1be@pobox.com> On 2021-3-27 19:35, John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote: > And so he was in agonizing pain for days, but did nothing,, > due to the fear of catching Covid? How could someone so smart, > be so stupid? How sad and what a waste... A generation ago, a foaf (I never met him) reputedly sought no attention for his final illness for fear of being told(!) that it was AIDS. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Mar 28 17:25:40 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2021 12:25:40 -0500 Subject: [ExI] thanks Message-ID: to those who contributed - the winner if Virtual Travel. The Oculus Quest 2 looks to be the winner in gear. If you have one, give me a little review. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gadersd at gmail.com Sun Mar 28 19:53:08 2021 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Hermes Trismegistus) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2021 15:53:08 -0400 Subject: [ExI] thanks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53544A20-BFDB-4521-A39A-6F9784C273BE@hxcore.ol> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Mar 28 19:58:02 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2021 14:58:02 -0500 Subject: [ExI] thanks In-Reply-To: <53544A20-BFDB-4521-A39A-6F9784C273BE@hxcore.ol> References: <53544A20-BFDB-4521-A39A-6F9784C273BE@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: Thanks. I'll buy it. If I get dizzy I'll just return it. bill w On Sun, Mar 28, 2021 at 2:56 PM Hermes Trismegistus via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I have one of the Oculus Rift dev kits. It produces severe vertigo in some > circumstances. I?m sure the newer ones have mitigated the side effects. If > you can handle it, the headsets are definitely worth it. > > > > *From: *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > > *Sent: *Sunday, March 28, 2021 1:28 PM > *To: *ExI chat list ; > extropolis at googlegroups.com > *Cc: *William Flynn Wallace > *Subject: *[ExI] thanks > > > > to those who contributed - the winner if Virtual Travel. > > > > The Oculus Quest 2 looks to be the winner in gear. If you have one, give > me a little review. > > > > bill w > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Sun Mar 28 21:36:30 2021 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2021 17:36:30 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Interview with Anders Message-ID: My friend Maitreya One interviews our own Anders Sandberg here https://youtu.be/DLal4NDUJLM Global Catastrophic risk talk with Dr. Anders Sandberg Published on Mar 27, 2021 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Mar 30 19:29:49 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 12:29:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] the parties didn't do it Message-ID: <002501d7259b$0d8e7f00$28ab7d00$@rainier66.com> We had Biketoberfest, we had Speed Week in Daytona, we had spring breakers all over the place in Florida all happening after the governor opened everything everywhere. Florida went on with its collective lives. Since we are now a week past the end of the big Spring break crowds, if those were super spreaders, we would see it by now. I don't. If we compare the curves of Florida, open since September, with the USA, the patterns look remarkably similar. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 21139 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 20569 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Tue Mar 30 19:53:38 2021 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 15:53:38 -0400 Subject: [ExI] the parties didn't do it In-Reply-To: <002501d7259b$0d8e7f00$28ab7d00$@rainier66.com> References: <002501d7259b$0d8e7f00$28ab7d00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: But we know spring breakers travel to and from Florida for the occasion. So the positive resulting cases of it were super-spreader could be everywhere, not just confined to Florida. We are seeing increases in 22 states and they are mostly younger people I have read. So maybe we are seeing the effects... > On Mar 30, 2021, at 3:30 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > > > > We had Biketoberfest, we had Speed Week in Daytona, we had spring breakers all over the place in Florida all happening after the governor opened everything everywhere. Florida went on with its collective lives. > > Since we are now a week past the end of the big Spring break crowds, if those were super spreaders, we would see it by now. I don?t. > > If we compare the curves of Florida, open since September, with the USA, the patterns look remarkably similar. > > spike > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Mar 30 21:09:03 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 14:09:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] the parties didn't do it In-Reply-To: References: <002501d7259b$0d8e7f00$28ab7d00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005701d725a8$ea593fd0$bf0bbf70$@rainier66.com> From: Henry Rivera Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 12:54 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: spike at rainier66.com Subject: Re: [ExI] the parties didn't do it But we know spring breakers travel to and from Florida for the occasion. So the positive resulting cases of it were super-spreader could be everywhere, not just confined to Florida. We are seeing increases in 22 states and they are mostly younger people I have read. So maybe we are seeing the effects... Hi Henry, I agree, however if one were to create a map of the home location of spring breakers in Florida, one would find a higher concentration of Floridians there than from any other particular state. If one can go to spring break parties by riding a bicycle across town, and one can go home after the party and sleep in one?s own bed, it is more likely one would go than if it required driving across a state or two, or more and renting hotels or camping on the beach. Other states also have their local Spring break hotspots, where presumably different covid mandates are in place. So we have no good way of determining if people caught in Florida then took it home or if they caught right there. Either way, there should be a surge of new cases in Florida, particularly in Flagler, St. John?s, Brevard, Palm Beach and Broward counties, and I don?t know about the other side of the state, Hillsborough county, but I assume they have their share of Spring break hotspots. Hmmm, all of this is an understatement: a majority of Florida counties border on the sea, so beaches they have in abundance. We appear to be seeing a repeat of a puzzling observation: huge parties, no masks, little or no apparent impact on normal background covid rates. Henry your observation about mostly younger people catching: it doesn?t appear to do much to them. If their grandparents are vaccinated (as they are in most states now) then perhaps we should not expect any new surges in case rates. Side note: if you ever get a chance to camp on the beach in Florida in the springtime, do it. Do the heck outta that. It?s an experience. In most places the sand is soft and warm so you don?t really even need a pad. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Mar 30 21:18:45 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 16:18:45 -0500 Subject: [ExI] the parties didn't do it In-Reply-To: <005701d725a8$ea593fd0$bf0bbf70$@rainier66.com> References: <002501d7259b$0d8e7f00$28ab7d00$@rainier66.com> <005701d725a8$ea593fd0$bf0bbf70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: One: most of the spring breakers spent their time outside, I am assuming - hard to catch it there. Two - the state is open, so the percentage of bar patrons that are breakers is small compared to those over the whole state. Three - presumably, no one who had the virus went on spring break just a thought or two - bill w On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 4:12 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* Henry Rivera > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 30, 2021 12:54 PM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* spike at rainier66.com > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] the parties didn't do it > > > > But we know spring breakers travel to and from Florida for the occasion. > So the positive resulting cases of it were super-spreader could be > everywhere, not just confined to Florida. We are seeing increases in 22 > states and they are mostly younger people I have read. So maybe we are > seeing the effects... > > > > > > Hi Henry, > > > > I agree, however if one were to create a map of the home location of > spring breakers in Florida, one would find a higher concentration of > Floridians there than from any other particular state. If one can go to > spring break parties by riding a bicycle across town, and one can go home > after the party and sleep in one?s own bed, it is more likely one would go > than if it required driving across a state or two, or more and renting > hotels or camping on the beach. > > > > Other states also have their local Spring break hotspots, where presumably > different covid mandates are in place. So we have no good way of > determining if people caught in Florida then took it home or if they caught > right there. Either way, there should be a surge of new cases in Florida, > particularly in Flagler, St. John?s, Brevard, Palm Beach and Broward > counties, and I don?t know about the other side of the state, Hillsborough > county, but I assume they have their share of Spring break hotspots. Hmmm, > all of this is an understatement: a majority of Florida counties border on > the sea, so beaches they have in abundance. > > > > We appear to be seeing a repeat of a puzzling observation: huge parties, > no masks, little or no apparent impact on normal background covid rates. > > > > Henry your observation about mostly younger people catching: it doesn?t > appear to do much to them. If their grandparents are vaccinated (as they > are in most states now) then perhaps we should not expect any new surges in > case rates. > > > > Side note: if you ever get a chance to camp on the beach in Florida in the > springtime, do it. Do the heck outta that. It?s an experience. In most > places the sand is soft and warm so you don?t really even need a pad. > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Mar 31 17:39:01 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 12:39:01 -0500 Subject: [ExI] really worth sharing Message-ID: https://qr.ae/pGRE6w bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Mar 31 17:46:39 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 10:46:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] really worth sharing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What's the content? Just so we know this isn't malware spam from some virus on your computer. On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 10:41 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > https://qr.ae/pGRE6w > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ExiMod at protonmail.com Wed Mar 31 18:41:00 2021 From: ExiMod at protonmail.com (ExiMod) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 18:41:00 +0000 Subject: [ExI] really worth sharing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <77ejhyA5GN7PbQDZ__bY_nTjrHPmo6dwhxkIZ4bek__Xr9-dHhdYVodRz8LZHg0b6_wLNbyuqqbhKdsVzX7ZSCOAWj1ctH7B63codkCkBig=@protonmail.com> ??????? Original Message ??????? On Wednesday, 31 March 2021 18:39, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > (link) > > bill w Yes, as Adrian says, it is good etiquette to add a few words of description to a video link. A link to an article should quote a few relevant sentences. It is safe practice to never click on unknown links. Even if a virus scan on the link reports the link as clean it may contain spam or do a double link onwards to an evil site. The internet is a dangerous place nowadays. ExiMod -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Mar 31 20:05:16 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 15:05:16 -0500 Subject: [ExI] really worth sharing In-Reply-To: <77ejhyA5GN7PbQDZ__bY_nTjrHPmo6dwhxkIZ4bek__Xr9-dHhdYVodRz8LZHg0b6_wLNbyuqqbhKdsVzX7ZSCOAWj1ctH7B63codkCkBig=@protonmail.com> References: <77ejhyA5GN7PbQDZ__bY_nTjrHPmo6dwhxkIZ4bek__Xr9-dHhdYVodRz8LZHg0b6_wLNbyuqqbhKdsVzX7ZSCOAWj1ctH7B63codkCkBig=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks bill w On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 1:44 PM ExiMod via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > ??????? Original Message ??????? > On Wednesday, 31 March 2021 18:39, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > (link) > > bill w > > > Yes, as Adrian says, it is good etiquette to add a few words of > description to a video link. > A link to an article should quote a few relevant sentences. > > It is safe practice to never click on unknown links. Even if a virus scan > on the link reports the link as clean it may contain spam or do a double > link onwards to an evil site. The internet is a dangerous place nowadays. > > ExiMod > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: