From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Nov 1 15:15:32 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 10:15:32 -0500 Subject: [ExI] today's news Message-ID: "Let's punish the winners." All across the country school systems are either closing down talented and gifted programs or considering doing so. Problem? The wrong people are benefitting. If this were a puzzle you'd have the answer now, right? The programs are racist. That is the conclusion. How did they get to that conclusion? Consequentialism. By definition, according to this kind of moral thinking, anything that results in racial imbalances is racist. From that perspective, they are right. And for political reasons they are closing programs that benefit Asians and whites (incidentally giving more support to white supremacists). These are smart people. They know that no program of any kind will result in racial balances - or gender balances, for that matter. (Progressive - "Oh, if only people were all the same." other Progressive "But they are!") We are in a politically correct age and there is nothing we can do about it. Or is there? The gifted and talented will succeed anyway in all probability. The only real victims here are people who want our society to be run rationally. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbb386 at main.nc.us Mon Nov 1 15:35:02 2021 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 11:35:02 -0400 Subject: [ExI] today's news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1ff8d480c268c1af7f0738dee793362d.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> On Mon, November 1, 2021 11:15, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > "Let's punish the winners." (snips) > The gifted and talented will succeed anyway in all probability. The only > real victims here are people who want our society to be run rationally. > > ... unless the gifted and talented are so bored or turned off that they go to bad behaviour or drugs. I saw that with one of my kids... even in a select school, bored bored bored. Near the top of the class, scholarships to college - bored bored bored. Dropped out, never finished school, doing manual & non-technical work now age 40s. At least working & currently self-supporting, for which I am exceedingly grateful. Regards, MB From spike at rainier66.com Mon Nov 1 16:21:30 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 09:21:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] today's news In-Reply-To: <1ff8d480c268c1af7f0738dee793362d.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> References: <1ff8d480c268c1af7f0738dee793362d.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: <002e01d7cf3c$8817d690$984783b0$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of MB via extropy-chat On Mon, November 1, 2021 11:15, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >>... "Let's punish the winners." (snips) >>... The gifted and talented will succeed anyway in all probability... > >...... unless the gifted and talented are so bored or turned off that they go to bad behaviour or drugs. I saw that with one of my kids... even in a select school, bored bored bored. Near the top of the class, scholarships to college - bored bored bored. Dropped out, never finished school, doing manual & non-technical work now age 40s. At least working & currently self-supporting, for which I am exceedingly grateful. Regards, MB _______________________________________________ BillW and MB, it appears we (as a society and as a planet) are struggling with the notion that everyone is the same, that all differences can be somehow educated away and classes will graduate all with comparable skills and knowledge base. In reality, students are very different in ability, and are diverging faster than ever, as some rely on the (failing) school system to spoon feed them what they need to know, while others go online to find the excellent educational opportunities available there free. Some students find use the hell outta those resources (thank you a million times Sal Khan (may you achieve whatever is the atheist version of sainthood while yet you live (what is the atheist's version of sainthood?))) I see actual engineering courses available online which is equivalent to, or really I would say superior to the college education I paid good money for, tragically many decades ago, and it is free as a bird. This is an example, a particularly good one: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm5mt-A4w61lknZ9lCsZtBw ...and this is a lecture from Steve's collection introducing classical controls: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi7l8mMjYVE ...but there are others like Steve, so if one is driven and focused, and if one does Khan Academy (for instance) to gobble up the equivalent of a high school diploma, one can take these free online courses and have a very competent education for zero money invested, never leaving home, regardless of one's ethnic background, nationality, political views, economic situation, orientation or gender. In our times, higher education went from being the domain of the privileged to something anyone can have. spike From gadersd at gmail.com Mon Nov 1 17:44:06 2021 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Hermes Trismegistus) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 13:44:06 -0400 Subject: [ExI] today's news In-Reply-To: <002e01d7cf3c$8817d690$984783b0$@rainier66.com> References: <1ff8d480c268c1af7f0738dee793362d.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>, <002e01d7cf3c$8817d690$984783b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Nov 1 17:56:44 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 10:56:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] today's news In-Reply-To: References: <1ff8d480c268c1af7f0738dee793362d.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> <002e01d7cf3c$8817d690$984783b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 1, 2021 at 10:45 AM Hermes Trismegistus via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Of course some career paths require a degree such as engineering or > medicine. I have a hard time imagining a company hiring someone who claims > to be a self-taught engineer or doctor. An autodidact engineer can of > course be superior to a university educated counterpart, but such a > situation is difficult to prove. Degrees at least guarantee some baseline > level of competence for hiring managers to consider. That said, I still > wish I would have forgone university as it has not been very beneficial to > me. > If learning in university isn't that worthwhile, then just focus on getting the degree ASAP. Take extra credit courses during the summer. Learn the basics of certain things (such as algebra & calculus) online in a matter of days, then use that to test out of prerequisite courses (being able to pass the final exam without having taken the course, does convince some faculty that there's no need for you to take the course), shaving entire academic quarters or semesters off your schedule. I got a BS in 3 years and a MS in 1 further year. Having these degrees in an engineering field (Computer Science in my case) was quite useful in my early career, and continues to give me some useful cred these days. Back in the '90s, I pulled it off by my own prowess - but these days, such a feat is more possible for most people. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Nov 1 18:20:09 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 13:20:09 -0500 Subject: [ExI] today's news In-Reply-To: References: <1ff8d480c268c1af7f0738dee793362d.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> <002e01d7cf3c$8817d690$984783b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: If I may stop and pick a nit: such a feat is more possible for most people adrian Now is 'possible' the same as 'probable'? I think of possible as being of two sorts: possible and impossible and nothing in between, so you can't get more or less possible the way you can get probable and improbable - a dichotomy versus a continuous variable, that is. bill w On Mon, Nov 1, 2021 at 12:58 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, Nov 1, 2021 at 10:45 AM Hermes Trismegistus via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Of course some career paths require a degree such as engineering or >> medicine. I have a hard time imagining a company hiring someone who claims >> to be a self-taught engineer or doctor. An autodidact engineer can of >> course be superior to a university educated counterpart, but such a >> situation is difficult to prove. Degrees at least guarantee some baseline >> level of competence for hiring managers to consider. That said, I still >> wish I would have forgone university as it has not been very beneficial to >> me. >> > > If learning in university isn't that worthwhile, then just focus on > getting the degree ASAP. Take extra credit courses during the summer. > Learn the basics of certain things (such as algebra & calculus) online in a > matter of days, then use that to test out of prerequisite courses (being > able to pass the final exam without having taken the course, does convince > some faculty that there's no need for you to take the course), shaving > entire academic quarters or semesters off your schedule. > > I got a BS in 3 years and a MS in 1 further year. Having these degrees in > an engineering field (Computer Science in my case) was quite useful in my > early career, and continues to give me some useful cred these days. Back > in the '90s, I pulled it off by my own prowess - but these days, such a > feat is more possible for most people. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon Nov 1 19:32:43 2021 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 12:32:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] today's news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Nov 1, 2021, at 11:22 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:? > If I may stop and pick a nit: such a feat is more possible for most people adrian > Now is 'possible' the same as 'probable'? I think of possible as being of two sorts: possible and impossible and nothing in between, so you can't get more or less possible the way you can get probable and improbable - a dichotomy versus a continuous variable, that is. bill w I?m with you on this, though many people use possible as a shorthand for ?merely possible? or ?unlikely but not impossible.? There?s usually little harm done as long as they don?t generalize that, especially when it comes to things like formal modal logic. (I bring that up because I got into just such a discussion where someone didn?t understand that the usual interpretation of modal possibility doesn?t specify any probability.) I have a bit to pick too: probabilities can be either continuous or discrete. So it?s not a binary vs continuous variable, but a binary versus a range (a greater then binary one, which can be but need not be continuous). Think of it this way: with two ?normal? dice under ?normal? conditions, it?s impossible to roll anything outside the range of 2 to 12 (in whole numbers). But the odds of each combination in that range are not continuous. They?re discrete, such as the odds of rolling a 2 Is 1 in 36, the chances of rolling a 3 is 2 in 36, but there?s nothing in between these two probabilities. They?re all discrete jumps of a whole number in 36 chance. Regards, Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Nov 1 19:52:51 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 12:52:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] today's news In-Reply-To: References: <1ff8d480c268c1af7f0738dee793362d.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> <002e01d7cf3c$8817d690$984783b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 1, 2021 at 11:21 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > If I may stop and pick a nit: such a feat is more possible for most > people adrian > Now is 'possible' the same as 'probable'? I think of possible as being of > two sorts: possible and impossible and nothing in between, so you can't > get more or less possible the way you can get probable and improbable - a > dichotomy versus a continuous variable, that is. bill w > That's not the sense in which I meant. Viewing it as just statistical odds ignores the effort people put in. I meant, "within the level of effort (and quality of effort) that more people can provide, and thus possible - in a practical sense - for more people". -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 16:59:09 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 11:59:09 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Darwin Awards Message-ID: I am sure that you know those people. I have been asked to be a publicist for them, and here is my suggestion.: Why haven't there been big sales of gadgets that go in your back window and deliver messages to those behind you? Perfect for this day and age. Can even be programmed to respond to voice and deliver the message where the cars behind you can easily read it. I'll bet you can guess what most of the messages say. I cannot think of anything better for raising tempers and road rage, which is a significant contributor to deaths qualifying for the Darwin Awards. I just thought I'd run it by you for reactions. Seems like a perfect plan to get rid of those flunking anger management classes. I cannot imagine why no one has thought of this idea before. If you are in favor of improving the gene pool, you have no choice but to support my efforts. Checks in any amount are welcome to facilitate my efforts. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 17:19:44 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 12:19:44 -0500 Subject: [ExI] the latest on multitasking Message-ID: No one can do it. To show that it can, a subject has to be as good on the two tasks when done together as they are when doing each separately. Women are not better at it than men, and both are bad. Why? Try listening to music, something a lot of people do when studying or working, and not miss a measure while doing your work at the same level. Can't be done. Yeah, your brain can shut out the music, but even that takes brain inhibitory power and you aren't actually doing both things. Amazon has quite a few books on concentration, which you don't need. It's a matter of cutting the clutter out. So turn off the TV, stereo, radio, pull those plugs out of your iPods and ears and actually pay 100% attention to what you are doing. Or try listening to your music without doing anything else. You will hear things you never heard before. You just might surprise yourself at how much quality work you can do now.. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 17:56:26 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 12:56:26 -0500 Subject: [ExI] today's news In-Reply-To: References: <1ff8d480c268c1af7f0738dee793362d.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> <002e01d7cf3c$8817d690$984783b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I meant, "within the level of effort (and quality of effort) that more people can provide, and thus possible - in a practical sense - for more people". adrian I take this to mean that people working well and hard are on the way to making something possible. If that is it, then does 'it's nearly possible 'make sense to you? (impossible does not have to mean never possible - it can mean not possible now) bill w On Mon, Nov 1, 2021 at 2:54 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, Nov 1, 2021 at 11:21 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> If I may stop and pick a nit: such a feat is more possible for most >> people adrian >> Now is 'possible' the same as 'probable'? I think of possible as being >> of two sorts: possible and impossible and nothing in between, so you can't >> get more or less possible the way you can get probable and improbable - a >> dichotomy versus a continuous variable, that is. bill w >> > > That's not the sense in which I meant. Viewing it as just statistical > odds ignores the effort people put in. > > I meant, "within the level of effort (and quality of effort) that more > people can provide, and thus possible - in a practical sense - for more > people". > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 18:10:43 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 11:10:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] today's news In-Reply-To: References: <1ff8d480c268c1af7f0738dee793362d.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> <002e01d7cf3c$8817d690$984783b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 10:58 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I meant, "within the level of effort (and quality of effort) that more > people can provide, and thus possible - in a practical sense - for more > people". adrian > > I take this to mean that people working well and hard are on the way to > making something possible. If that is it, then does 'it's nearly possible > 'make sense to you? > It does indeed. > (impossible does not have to mean never possible - it can mean not > possible now) bill w > Sure, though that is best clarified as "currently impossible", lest it be confused with "forever impossible" which is the usual meaning. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 22:47:35 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 17:47:35 -0500 Subject: [ExI] new word of the day Message-ID: Agnotology - the study of spreading confusion and doubt. Generally referring to industries taking scientific data and twisting it to sell products and services. I like new words, but wouldn't 'propaganda' work just as well? A Google search gives many interesting sites to visit. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Nov 2 22:57:48 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 15:57:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Darwin Awards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00a401d7d03d$108e6970$31ab3c50$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat ? >?Why haven't there been big sales of gadgets that go in your back window and deliver messages to those behind you? Perfect for this day and age. Can even be programmed to respond to voice and deliver the message where the cars behind you can easily read it. I'll bet you can guess what most of the messages say?. bill w I can think of some modifications that would be less likely to cause road rage. We could rig it with a camera and an AI processor, such that it would look around and make a judgement on what message to send. For instance, it would need some kind of image recognition software. If it is some ugly galoot with Don?t Tread on Me stickers for instance, have it scroll ?Have a nice day?? then as after he passes ??you stupid palooka?? Or if the car is following too close, have it say something like, ?Back off, or I?ll fart?? that kinda thing. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 23:55:37 2021 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 17:55:37 -0600 Subject: [ExI] new word of the day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, it's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I enlighten the masses, you're spreading misinformation, he's propagandizing. Democracy dies in darkness, dontcha know? On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 4:49 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Agnotology - the study of spreading confusion and doubt. Generally > referring to industries taking scientific data and twisting it to sell > products and services. I like new words, but wouldn't 'propaganda' work > just as well? > > A Google search gives many interesting sites to visit. > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 00:19:58 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 00:19:58 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Darwin Awards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Nov 2021 at 17:03, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > I am sure that you know those people. I have been asked to be a publicist for them, and here is my suggestion.: > > Why haven't there been big sales of gadgets that go in your back window and deliver messages to those behind you? Perfect for this day and age. Can even be programmed to respond to voice and deliver the message where the cars behind you can easily read it. I'll bet you can guess what most of the messages say. > > I cannot think of anything better for raising tempers and road rage, which is a significant contributor to deaths qualifying for the Darwin Awards. > > I just thought I'd run it by you for reactions. Seems like a perfect plan to get rid of those flunking anger management classes. I cannot imagine why no one has thought of this idea before. If you are in favor of improving the gene pool, you have no choice but to support my efforts. Checks in any amount are welcome to facilitate my efforts. bill w > _______________________________________________ They are probably illegal in many states/countries. Obstructing driver vision, distracting motorists, etc. Or, likely just to get people into interesting discussions with police, which may not be welcome. :) BillK From giulio at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 10:08:36 2021 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 11:08:36 +0100 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?G=C3=B6del_and_physical_reality?= Message-ID: G?del and physical reality. What are the implications of G?del's theorem for fundamental science and metaphysics? What does G?del?s theorem say about physical reality? Does G?del?s theorem imply that no finite mathematical model can capture physical reality? Does the nondeterminism found in quantum and chaos physics - it?s impossible to predict (prove) the future from the present and the laws of physics - have something to do with G?del?s incompleteness? Many scientists e.g. Stanley Jaki, Freeman Dyson, and recently Stephen Hawking ("According to the positivist philosophy of science, a physical theory is a mathematical model. So if there are mathematical results that can not be proved, there are physical problems that can not be predicted?") have formulated this intuition. But I'm not aware of any proof (or very strong semi-rigorous argument) that causal openness in physical reality follows from G?del's theorems (or the related results of Turing, Chaitin etc.). Can anyone give me links/ideas? From jasonresch at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 13:52:15 2021 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 08:52:15 -0500 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?G=C3=B6del_and_physical_reality?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Giulio, Thank you for raising so many profound questions! On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 5:10 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > G?del and physical reality. What are the implications of G?del's > theorem for fundamental science and metaphysics? > > I think there are deep connections between G?del's theorem and the question of why anything exists. I write about some of the connections and implications in this article: https://alwaysasking.com/why-does-anything-exist/#20th_Century_Mathematics In summary, G?del's result implies an independence of mathematical truth from any human theory of that truth, and I would argue, even makes mathematical truth independent of the physical universe. Then, there are a number of constructive arguments that show how the existence of mathematical truth leads to the existence of entities who believe and consider themselves to be parts of physically existing worlds. In effect, all computational histories (of all programs) are a small part of what exists in the set of all mathematical truth. This was discovered in 1970 as part of the MRDP-Theorem which solved Hilbert's 10th problem. There exists a single Diophantine equation, whose solutions embody all possible programs (all computable sets). See: https://alwaysasking.com/why-does-anything-exist/#Universal_Equations > What does G?del?s theorem say about physical reality? If you define physical reality as the observable universe, whose information content is large but finite (say 10^120 bits), then our universe lacks the computational and memory resources to even list all the properties of the number "3". In this sense, the number 3 is a larger, and more complex object than our physical universe, for there are an infinite number of true statements concerning the number 3, not all of which can be enumerated in our physical universe. The finiteness of our universe also means there are axiomatic systems which contain more axioms than there are atoms in our universe, so we could never conceive of them. > Does G?del?s > theorem imply that no finite mathematical model can capture physical > reality? Since our physical reality allows the construction of computers, and since the behavior of computers cannot be determined in general (you will always need ever-more expensive mathematical theories to prove things about the operations of certain computers), then in a very real sense, G?del?s theorem (and particularly in conjunction with the unsolvability of Hilbert's 10th problem (undecidability)), it means certain physical problems are not decidable either. For example, consider if I have a computer searching for counterexamples to the Goldbach conjecture , after which it will turn on a light switch, because the computer is a physical system, I could ask the physical question of: "*how long, if ever, will it take for the light to turn on?*" And yet, it very well could be that we cannot determine the answer to this problem, without developing a new more powerful mathematical system that enables us to prove that there are no counterexamples to the Goldbach conjecture. So physics and our physical theories, because they are general enough to allow us to build computers, are subject to the limits of undecidability, and ultimately are limited by the power of our mathematical systems. > Does the nondeterminism found in quantum and chaos physics - > it?s impossible to predict (prove) the future from the present and the > laws of physics - have something to do with G?del?s incompleteness? > Many scientists e.g. Stanley Jaki, Freeman Dyson, and recently Stephen > Hawking ("According to the positivist philosophy of science, a > physical theory is a mathematical model. So if there are mathematical > results that can not be proved, there are physical problems that can > not be predicted?") have formulated this intuition. But I'm not aware > of any proof (or very strong semi-rigorous argument) that causal > openness in physical reality follows from G?del's theorems (or the > related results of Turing, Chaitin etc.). Can anyone give me > links/ideas? > There are a number of recent results that suggest the uncertainty we observe in physics could be a direct manifestation/consequence of our existence within an infinite ensemble of all possible computational histories. I quote and cite some of these theories and theorists here: https://alwaysasking.com/why-does-anything-exist/#Why_Quantum_Mechanics If you have any questions about any of these ideas, I would be happy to follow up in more depth, but the links from there should provide a good starting point. Jason -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 14:34:31 2021 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 15:34:31 +0100 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?G=C3=B6del_and_physical_reality?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 2:52 PM Jason Resch wrote: > > Hi Giulio, > > Thank you for raising so many profound questions! > > On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 5:10 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> G?del and physical reality. What are the implications of G?del's >> theorem for fundamental science and metaphysics? >> > > I think there are deep connections between G?del's theorem and the question of why anything exists. I write about some of the connections and implications in this article: > https://alwaysasking.com/why-does-anything-exist/#20th_Century_Mathematics Hi Jason, your website doesn't seem to be working (522: connection timed out). > > In summary, G?del's result implies an independence of mathematical truth from any human theory of that truth, and I would argue, even makes mathematical truth independent of the physical universe. > But it can also be argued that it makes mathematical truth *strongly dependent* on the physical universe. I tend to think of mathematics as the physics of little things that can be counted - a construction motivated by physical experience and the need to stay alive long enough to reproduce. > Then, there are a number of constructive arguments that show how the existence of mathematical truth leads to the existence of entities who believe and consider themselves to be parts of physically existing worlds. In effect, all computational histories (of all programs) are a small part of what exists in the set of all mathematical truth. This was discovered in 1970 as part of the MRDP-Theorem which solved Hilbert's 10th problem. There exists a single Diophantine equation, whose solutions embody all possible programs (all computable sets). See: https://alwaysasking.com/why-does-anything-exist/#Universal_Equations > >> >> What does G?del?s theorem say about physical reality? > > > > If you define physical reality as the observable universe, whose information content is large but finite (say 10^120 bits), then our universe lacks the computational and memory resources to even list all the properties of the number "3". In this sense, the number 3 is a larger, and more complex object than our physical universe, for there are an infinite number of true statements concerning the number 3, not all of which can be enumerated in our physical universe. The finiteness of our universe also means there are axiomatic systems which contain more axioms than there are atoms in our universe, so we could never conceive of them. > >> >> Does G?del?s >> theorem imply that no finite mathematical model can capture physical >> reality? > > > Since our physical reality allows the construction of computers, and since the behavior of computers cannot be determined in general (you will always need ever-more expensive mathematical theories to prove things about the operations of certain computers), then in a very real sense, G?del?s theorem (and particularly in conjunction with the unsolvability of Hilbert's 10th problem (undecidability)), it means certain physical problems are not decidable either. > > For example, consider if I have a computer searching for counterexamples to the Goldbach conjecture, after which it will turn on a light switch, because the computer is a physical system, I could ask the physical question of: "how long, if ever, will it take for the light to turn on?" And yet, it very well could be that we cannot determine the answer to this problem, without developing a new more powerful mathematical system that enables us to prove that there are no counterexamples to the Goldbach conjecture. So physics and our physical theories, because they are general enough to allow us to build computers, are subject to the limits of undecidability, and ultimately are limited by the power of our mathematical systems. > >> >> Does the nondeterminism found in quantum and chaos physics - >> it?s impossible to predict (prove) the future from the present and the >> laws of physics - have something to do with G?del?s incompleteness? >> Many scientists e.g. Stanley Jaki, Freeman Dyson, and recently Stephen >> Hawking ("According to the positivist philosophy of science, a >> physical theory is a mathematical model. So if there are mathematical >> results that can not be proved, there are physical problems that can >> not be predicted?") have formulated this intuition. But I'm not aware >> of any proof (or very strong semi-rigorous argument) that causal >> openness in physical reality follows from G?del's theorems (or the >> related results of Turing, Chaitin etc.). Can anyone give me >> links/ideas? > > > There are a number of recent results that suggest the uncertainty we observe in physics could be a direct manifestation/consequence of our existence within an infinite ensemble of all possible computational histories. I quote and cite some of these theories and theorists here: > https://alwaysasking.com/why-does-anything-exist/#Why_Quantum_Mechanics > I'll wait and see if your website comes back online! > If you have any questions about any of these ideas, I would be happy to follow up in more depth, but the links from there should provide a good starting point. > > Jason From giulio at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 14:38:11 2021 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 15:38:11 +0100 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?=5BExtropolis=5D_G=C3=B6del_and_physical_reality?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 2:05 PM John Clark wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 6:08 AM Giulio Prisco wrote: > >> > G?del and physical reality. What are the implications of G?del's >> theorem for fundamental science and metaphysics? > > > For one thing it means that something like Asimov's 3 laws of robotics can never be made foolproof; and of course we don't need G?del to tell us that such laws that attempt to turn something smarter than humans into their slaves are ethically compromised. > >> > What does G?del?s theorem say about physical reality? > > > G?del?s theorem may or may not say something about fundamental physics, nobody knows, but there's more to physics than just fundamental physics just as there's more to chess than just learning what the rules are, andG?del?s theorem certainly has something to say about physical reality at a higher level. For example, it would be easy to set up a physical system such as a Turing Machine in such a way that it will find the first even number greater than 2 that is not the sum of 2 prime numbers and then stop, but there is no way to predict if that physical system will actually stop or not, all you can do is watch it and wait for it to stop, and you might be waiting forever. > >> > Does the nondeterminism found in quantum and chaos physics - >> it?s impossible to predict (prove) the future from the present and the >> laws of physics - have something to do with G?del?s incompleteness? > > > According to the book "Conversations With A Mathematician by Gregory Chaitin" John Wheeler, Richard Feynman's PhD thesis advisor and the guy who invented the term "Black Hole" once asked Kurt G?del that same question: > > "One day I was at the Institute For Advanced Study at Princeton and went into G?del?s office and said 'Professor G?del, what connection do you see between your incompleteness theorem in Heisenberg's uncertainty principle?' and G?del got angry and threw me out of his office". Wheeler tells the story in his own book, and says "G?del confessed to me why he had been unwilling to talk with Kip Thorne, Charlie Misner, and me about any possible connection between the undecidability he had discovered in the world of logic and the indeterminism that is a central feature of modern quantum mechanics. Because, he revealed, he did not believe in quantum mechanics. G?del was a friend of Einstein and apparently the two had walked and talked so much that Einstein had convinced him to abandon the teachings of Bohr and Heisenberg." > > John K Clark > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv1q7e-N4ZyBS%3DJNA945iJimKY47A3qHrNV9LJ16rPZb%2Bg%40mail.gmail.com. From giulio at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 16:08:03 2021 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 17:08:03 +0100 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?=5BExtropolis=5D_G=C3=B6del_and_physical_reality?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 4:59 PM John Clark wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 10:38 AM Giulio Prisco wrote: > >> > G?del's result implies an independence of mathematical truth from any human theory of that truth, and I would argue, even makes mathematical truth independent of the physical universe. > > > Mathematics is the language of physics but like any language it can be used to write both fiction and nonfiction. English is also a language and it can be used to write a book about Quantum Mechanics but it can also be used to write a book about Harry Potter, and both books could be equally grammatically correct. I sometimes have the feeling that some of the more abstruse areas of modern mathematics might be the equivalent of mathematical Harry Potter novels. > >> > But it can also be argued that it makes mathematical truth *strongly >> dependent* on the physical universe. > > > That's why I would argue physics is more fundamental than mathematics, and that's why a book on advanced computational theory sitting on a shelf cannot add 2+2, the ideas in the book have to be implemented in physics before it can actually do anything. If there is an even number that is not the sum of two prime numbers but the number is so huge that it cannot be calculated by physics even in theory then I think it would be meaningless to say they're really "is" such a number. > I agree, physics is more fundamental than mathematics. >> > our universe lacks the computational and memory resources to even list all the properties of the number "3". In this sense, the number 3 is a larger, and more complex object than our physical universe, for there are an infinite number of true statements concerning the number 3, > > > That depends on exactly how you define "complexity", but you wouldn't need to list everything the number 3 can do to uniquely defined it, but if you define the complexity of something as the minimum number of characters needed to define it then the first billion digits of ? are more complex than all of the digits of ? since all the digits of ? are uniquely defined by just 24 characters, 4*(1-1/3+1/5-1/7+1/9 -...), but you'd need 1 billion characters to uniquely define just the first billion characters of ?. > >> > The finiteness of our universe also means there are axiomatic systems which contain more axioms than there are atoms in our universe, so we could never conceive of them. > > > A logical system is only as strong as its weakest axiom, that's why axioms need to be simple and intuitively obvious. We could just add the Goldbach Conjecture as an axiom but it's truth is not intuitively obvious and it would be very embarrassing if after doing this a computer crunching through huge numbers happen to find an even number that was not the sum of two prime numbers, it would mean all the work done in mathematics since the axiom had been added was meaningless. > > John K Clark > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv0NZ3VoLk4ZmwqUoG_nSjiMRt87RxZNTQBcje9809G54w%40mail.gmail.com. From jasonresch at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 17:22:00 2021 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 12:22:00 -0500 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Fwd=3A__G=C3=B6del_and_physical_reality?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Jason Resch Date: Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 12:19 PM Subject: Re: [ExI] G?del and physical reality On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 9:34 AM Giulio Prisco wrote: > On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 2:52 PM Jason Resch wrote: > > > > Hi Giulio, > > > > Thank you for raising so many profound questions! > > > > On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 5:10 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> > >> G?del and physical reality. What are the implications of G?del's > >> theorem for fundamental science and metaphysics? > >> > > > > I think there are deep connections between G?del's theorem and the > question of why anything exists. I write about some of the connections and > implications in this article: > > > https://alwaysasking.com/why-does-anything-exist/#20th_Century_Mathematics > > Hi Jason, your website doesn't seem to be working (522: connection timed > out). > Hi Giulio, it appears to be back up, for the time being at least. I apologize for the outage. > > > > In summary, G?del's result implies an independence of mathematical truth > from any human theory of that truth, and I would argue, even makes > mathematical truth independent of the physical universe. > > > > But it can also be argued that it makes mathematical truth *strongly > dependent* on the physical universe. I tend to think of mathematics as > the physics of little things that can be counted - a construction > motivated by physical experience and the need to stay alive long > enough to reproduce. > There is a circularity for sure. [image: circularity-math-matter-mind.png] The question is: where does it begin? This is roughly the picture I have arrived at: [image: story-of-creation.green-text.png] Necessity requires logical laws; logical laws imply incontrovertible truth; such truth includes mathematical truth; mathematical truth defines numbers; numbers possess number relations; number relations imply equations; equations define computable relations; computable relations define all computations; all computations include algorithmically generated observers; and these observers experience apparent physical realities. Here is a simple example of how logical necessity gives a shape to reality. Consider the theory "Every rule has an exception". This is self-refuting because then the rule that every rule has an exception would have an exception, negating the rule. So then there must be some rules without exceptions (what we might call laws). This is just an example, but similar ideas from logic can be used to show certain truths would necessarily exist, even with no universe and no things, as denying them would lead to a contradiction. So we arrive at a picture where "infinite truth", the embodiment of all knowledge, serves as a container of all minds and all things. We could liken it to an omniscient mind, being total, infinite, and incomprehensible, eternal and uncreated, without a beginning or end, self-existent. Furthermore, if this infinite truth produces observers and experiences of physical universes as described above, hen this infinite truth is also the reason and cause behind all things, the ground of being to ourselves and the material universe. Jason > > > Then, there are a number of constructive arguments that show how the > existence of mathematical truth leads to the existence of entities who > believe and consider themselves to be parts of physically existing worlds. > In effect, all computational histories (of all programs) are a small part > of what exists in the set of all mathematical truth. This was discovered in > 1970 as part of the MRDP-Theorem which solved Hilbert's 10th problem. There > exists a single Diophantine equation, whose solutions embody all possible > programs (all computable sets). See: > https://alwaysasking.com/why-does-anything-exist/#Universal_Equations > > > >> > >> What does G?del?s theorem say about physical reality? > > > > > > > > If you define physical reality as the observable universe, whose > information content is large but finite (say 10^120 bits), then our > universe lacks the computational and memory resources to even list all the > properties of the number "3". In this sense, the number 3 is a larger, and > more complex object than our physical universe, for there are an infinite > number of true statements concerning the number 3, not all of which can be > enumerated in our physical universe. The finiteness of our universe also > means there are axiomatic systems which contain more axioms than there are > atoms in our universe, so we could never conceive of them. > > > >> > >> Does G?del?s > >> theorem imply that no finite mathematical model can capture physical > >> reality? > > > > > > Since our physical reality allows the construction of computers, and > since the behavior of computers cannot be determined in general (you will > always need ever-more expensive mathematical theories to prove things about > the operations of certain computers), then in a very real sense, G?del?s > theorem (and particularly in conjunction with the unsolvability of > Hilbert's 10th problem (undecidability)), it means certain physical > problems are not decidable either. > > > > For example, consider if I have a computer searching for counterexamples > to the Goldbach conjecture, after which it will turn on a light switch, > because the computer is a physical system, I could ask the physical > question of: "how long, if ever, will it take for the light to turn on?" > And yet, it very well could be that we cannot determine the answer to this > problem, without developing a new more powerful mathematical system that > enables us to prove that there are no counterexamples to the Goldbach > conjecture. So physics and our physical theories, because they are general > enough to allow us to build computers, are subject to the limits of > undecidability, and ultimately are limited by the power of our mathematical > systems. > > > >> > >> Does the nondeterminism found in quantum and chaos physics - > >> it?s impossible to predict (prove) the future from the present and the > >> laws of physics - have something to do with G?del?s incompleteness? > >> Many scientists e.g. Stanley Jaki, Freeman Dyson, and recently Stephen > >> Hawking ("According to the positivist philosophy of science, a > >> physical theory is a mathematical model. So if there are mathematical > >> results that can not be proved, there are physical problems that can > >> not be predicted?") have formulated this intuition. But I'm not aware > >> of any proof (or very strong semi-rigorous argument) that causal > >> openness in physical reality follows from G?del's theorems (or the > >> related results of Turing, Chaitin etc.). Can anyone give me > >> links/ideas? > > > > > > There are a number of recent results that suggest the uncertainty we > observe in physics could be a direct manifestation/consequence of our > existence within an infinite ensemble of all possible computational > histories. I quote and cite some of these theories and theorists here: > > https://alwaysasking.com/why-does-anything-exist/#Why_Quantum_Mechanics > > > I'll wait and see if your website comes back online! > > > If you have any questions about any of these ideas, I would be happy to > follow up in more depth, but the links from there should provide a good > starting point. > > > > Jason > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: story-of-creation.green-text.png Type: image/png Size: 11421 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: circularity-math-matter-mind.png Type: image/png Size: 4942 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jasonresch at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 17:30:28 2021 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 12:30:28 -0500 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?=5BExtropolis=5D_G=C3=B6del_and_physical_reality?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 9:41 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 2:05 PM John Clark wrote: > > > > On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 6:08 AM Giulio Prisco wrote: > > > >> > G?del and physical reality. What are the implications of G?del's > >> theorem for fundamental science and metaphysics? > > > > > > For one thing it means that something like Asimov's 3 laws of robotics > can never be made foolproof; and of course we don't need G?del to tell us > that such laws that attempt to turn something smarter than humans into > their slaves are ethically compromised. > > > >> > What does G?del?s theorem say about physical reality? > > > > > > G?del?s theorem may or may not say something about fundamental physics, > nobody knows, but there's more to physics than just fundamental physics > just as there's more to chess than just learning what the rules are, > andG?del?s theorem certainly has something to say about physical reality at > a higher level. For example, it would be easy to set up a physical system > such as a Turing Machine in such a way that it will find the first even > number greater than 2 that is not the sum of 2 prime numbers and then stop, > but there is no way to predict if that physical system will actually stop > or not, all you can do is watch it and wait for it to stop, and you might > be waiting forever. > You could, with the appropriate mathematics, find a proof that it will either stop at some point, or you could find a proof that it will continue forever. Either proof will allow you to predict its behavior without having to wait forever. This is an example that makes clear that our physical theories are a subset of our mathematical theories. Since our mathematical theories will always be incomplete, so too will our physical theories remain incomplete. There will always be physical problems that are insoluble for the given set of mathematical theories (by this I mean axiomatic systems) we are using. > > > >> > Does the nondeterminism found in quantum and chaos physics - > >> it?s impossible to predict (prove) the future from the present and the > >> laws of physics - have something to do with G?del?s incompleteness? > > > > > > According to the book "Conversations With A Mathematician by Gregory > Chaitin" John Wheeler, Richard Feynman's PhD thesis advisor and the guy who > invented the term "Black Hole" once asked Kurt G?del that same question: > > > > "One day I was at the Institute For Advanced Study at Princeton and went > into G?del?s office and said 'Professor G?del, what connection do you see > between your incompleteness theorem in Heisenberg's uncertainty principle?' > and G?del got angry and threw me out of his office". > > Wheeler tells the story in his own book, and says "G?del confessed to > me why he had been unwilling to talk with Kip Thorne, Charlie Misner, > and me about any possible connection between the undecidability he had > discovered in the world of logic and the indeterminism that is a > central feature of modern quantum mechanics. Because, he revealed, he > did not believe in quantum mechanics. G?del was a friend of Einstein > and apparently the two had walked and talked so much that Einstein had > convinced him to abandon the teachings of Bohr and Heisenberg." > > In retrospect, Einstein's disbelief in God playing dice with the universe was vindicated by Everett's (objectively) deterministic interpretation, which showed uncertainty and the unpredictability of wave function collapse can be seen as a subjective phenomenon is related to an observer's inherently limited ability to self-locate within the wavefunction/multiverse. Jason -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 17:34:56 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 12:34:56 -0500 Subject: [ExI] humanity Message-ID: Quora question to me (and now to you): Is logic the biggest failing of humanity? I am assuming the question means our inability to do logical thinking. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 17:43:43 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 10:43:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] humanity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 10:37 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Quora question to me (and now to you): > > Is logic the biggest failing of humanity? > No. Refusal to empathize with other humans has produced bigger failures than logic has. > I am assuming the question means our inability to do logical thinking. > No, the question pretty clearly means logic itself. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 17:50:06 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 12:50:06 -0500 Subject: [ExI] humanity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Adrian, are you sort of including selfishness here? That is, if we could empathize fully we would understand people better and do more sharing with them? I knew someone would come up with moral failures in people. The question, if taken as Adrian suggests, makes no sense, since logic is clearly an asset. I get a lot of questions that I have to interpret. bill w On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 12:45 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 10:37 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Quora question to me (and now to you): >> >> Is logic the biggest failing of humanity? >> > > No. Refusal to empathize with other humans has produced bigger failures > than logic has. > > >> I am assuming the question means our inability to do logical thinking. >> > > No, the question pretty clearly means logic itself. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jasonresch at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 17:52:31 2021 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 12:52:31 -0500 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?=5BExtropolis=5D_G=C3=B6del_and_physical_reality?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 11:09 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 4:59 PM John Clark wrote: > > > > On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 10:38 AM Giulio Prisco wrote: > > > >> > G?del's result implies an independence of mathematical truth from any > human theory of that truth, and I would argue, even makes mathematical > truth independent of the physical universe. > > > > > > Mathematics is the language of physics but like any language it can be > used to write both fiction and nonfiction. English is also a language and > it can be used to write a book about Quantum Mechanics but it can also be > used to write a book about Harry Potter, and both books could be equally > grammatically correct. I sometimes have the feeling that some of the more > abstruse areas of modern mathematics might be the equivalent of > mathematical Harry Potter novels. > We have the freedom to choose and make up mathematical theories, just as we have the freedom to choose and make up physical theories. But we don't bother with the ones that give nonsensical or wrong answers. We want our mathematical theories to be able to prove things that are objectively verifiable, such as whether or not a given program will halt or not. If a mathematical theory failed to give a correct prediction to such a question we would discard it, just as we would a physical theory that gave bad predictions. I think we ought to not confuse the theories (human invented) from the objects we try to describe using those theories. It seems you lump both the theories and the objects together when you say mathematics, but you don't make this same mistake when you speak of physical theories vs. physical objects. I think G?del's incompleteness result effectively proves mathematical objects are necessarily distinct from any theory attempting to describe them, for no finite (human invented) theory can ever answer every question or provide every property of these mathematical objects. > > > >> > But it can also be argued that it makes mathematical truth *strongly > >> dependent* on the physical universe. > > > > > > That's why I would argue physics is more fundamental than mathematics, > and that's why a book on advanced computational theory sitting on a shelf > cannot add 2+2, the ideas in the book have to be implemented in physics > before it can actually do anything. If there is an even number that is not > the sum of two prime numbers but the number is so huge that it cannot be > calculated by physics even in theory then I think it would be meaningless > to say they're really "is" such a number. > Consider the existence of some little "game of life" universe that is 1,000 x 1,000 cells, and there is a simple automaton in there with a rudimentary nervous system. It can contemplate 2+2=4, but its brain and Game of Life universe is too small for it to conceive of numbers larger than a million. What effect, if any, would you say the multiverse theory has for the meaninglessness or meaningfulness of different numbers, which might be comprehensible in some universes but not in others? If the Goldbach counterexample is too large to represent in this universe, but not others, does it then make sense to say there is such a number? If not, what role does physical causality/interconnectedness have to do with existence or non-existence of numbers? > > > I agree, physics is more fundamental than mathematics. > > >> > our universe lacks the computational and memory resources to even > list all the properties of the number "3". In this sense, the number 3 is a > larger, and more complex object than our physical universe, for there are > an infinite number of true statements concerning the number 3, > > > > > > That depends on exactly how you define "complexity", but you wouldn't > need to list everything the number 3 can do to uniquely defined it, but if > you define the complexity of something as the minimum number of characters > needed to define it then the first billion digits of ? are more complex > than all of the digits of ? since all the digits of ? are uniquely defined > by just 24 characters, 4*(1-1/3+1/5-1/7+1/9 -...), but you'd need 1 > billion characters to uniquely define just the first billion characters of > ?. > We can point to "3" quite easily, but to perfectly define 3 requires the ability to specify all of 3's properties. Many of 3's properties are unknowable to us with our finite mathematical theories. For example, is "3" more or less than the number of Goldbach counterexamples? We don't currently know. It may not even be knowable using our existing mathematics. In fact, it could require a mathematical theory with more than 10^120 axioms to decide. There will always be such properties of 3 that are unknowable/unanswerable, no matter how big and complex a theory of mathematics we develop, so in a very real sense, "3" is bigger than our universe, and much bigger than the information complexity of the first billion characters of ?. Actually "?" is a perfect example of how mathematical objects can have greater information content than the universe, you can't even write down the digits of ? in our universe. Where then, do the digits of ? exist? > > > >> > The finiteness of our universe also means there are axiomatic > systems which contain more axioms than there are atoms in our universe, so > we could never conceive of them. > > > > > > A logical system is only as strong as its weakest axiom, that's why > axioms need to be simple and intuitively obvious. Principles in physics don't need to be intuitively obvious. I think it may be a mistake to require the same for mathematical axioms. It may be that very counterintuitive axioms are required to build more powerful and effective mathematics, which should be the only and true test of a mathematical theory. > We could just add the Goldbach Conjecture as an axiom but it's truth is > not intuitively obvious and it would be very embarrassing if after doing > this a computer crunching through huge numbers happen to find an even > number that was not the sum of two prime numbers, it would mean all the > work done in mathematics since the axiom had been added was meaningless. > Yes, mathematicians tend to be conservative when it comes to adding or changing axioms, ann not altogether without good reason, but I think G?del was on to something when he said empiricism has a place in mathematics. Jason -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 18:15:05 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 13:15:05 -0500 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?=5BExtropolis=5D_G=C3=B6del_and_physical_reality?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: no finite (human invented) theory can ever answer every question or provide every property of these mathematical objects. Who says so? Nobody asked me! I can answer any question whatsoever, because of my extended reading into everything. Oh, wait, maybe you meant *correct* answers? bill w On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 12:57 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 11:09 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 4:59 PM John Clark wrote: >> > >> > On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 10:38 AM Giulio Prisco wrote: >> > >> >> > G?del's result implies an independence of mathematical truth from >> any human theory of that truth, and I would argue, even makes mathematical >> truth independent of the physical universe. >> > >> > >> > Mathematics is the language of physics but like any language it can be >> used to write both fiction and nonfiction. English is also a language and >> it can be used to write a book about Quantum Mechanics but it can also be >> used to write a book about Harry Potter, and both books could be equally >> grammatically correct. I sometimes have the feeling that some of the more >> abstruse areas of modern mathematics might be the equivalent of >> mathematical Harry Potter novels. >> > > We have the freedom to choose and make up mathematical theories, just as > we have the freedom to choose and make up physical theories. But we don't > bother with the ones that give nonsensical or wrong answers. We want our > mathematical theories to be able to prove things that are objectively > verifiable, such as whether or not a given program will halt or not. If a > mathematical theory failed to give a correct prediction to such a question > we would discard it, just as we would a physical theory that gave bad > predictions. I think we ought to not confuse the theories (human invented) > from the objects we try to describe using those theories. It seems you lump > both the theories and the objects together when you say mathematics, but > you don't make this same mistake when you speak of physical theories vs. > physical objects. I think G?del's incompleteness result effectively proves > mathematical objects are necessarily distinct from any theory attempting to > describe them, for no finite (human invented) theory can ever answer every > question or provide every property of these mathematical objects. > > >> > >> >> > But it can also be argued that it makes mathematical truth *strongly >> >> dependent* on the physical universe. >> > >> > >> > That's why I would argue physics is more fundamental than mathematics, >> and that's why a book on advanced computational theory sitting on a shelf >> cannot add 2+2, the ideas in the book have to be implemented in physics >> before it can actually do anything. If there is an even number that is not >> the sum of two prime numbers but the number is so huge that it cannot be >> calculated by physics even in theory then I think it would be meaningless >> to say they're really "is" such a number. >> > > Consider the existence of some little "game of life" universe that is > 1,000 x 1,000 cells, and there is a simple automaton in there with a > rudimentary nervous system. It can contemplate 2+2=4, but its brain and > Game of Life universe is too small for it to conceive of numbers larger > than a million. What effect, if any, would you say the multiverse theory > has for the meaninglessness or meaningfulness of different numbers, which > might be comprehensible in some universes but not in others? If the > Goldbach counterexample is too large to represent in this universe, but not > others, does it then make sense to say there is such a number? If not, what > role does physical causality/interconnectedness have to do with existence > or non-existence of numbers? > > >> > >> I agree, physics is more fundamental than mathematics. >> >> >> > our universe lacks the computational and memory resources to even >> list all the properties of the number "3". In this sense, the number 3 is a >> larger, and more complex object than our physical universe, for there are >> an infinite number of true statements concerning the number 3, >> > >> > >> > That depends on exactly how you define "complexity", but you wouldn't >> need to list everything the number 3 can do to uniquely defined it, but if >> you define the complexity of something as the minimum number of characters >> needed to define it then the first billion digits of ? are more complex >> than all of the digits of ? since all the digits of ? are uniquely defined >> by just 24 characters, 4*(1-1/3+1/5-1/7+1/9 -...), but you'd need 1 >> billion characters to uniquely define just the first billion characters of >> ?. >> > > We can point to "3" quite easily, but to perfectly define 3 requires the > ability to specify all of 3's properties. Many of 3's properties are > unknowable to us with our finite mathematical theories. For example, is "3" > more or less than the number of Goldbach counterexamples? We don't > currently know. It may not even be knowable using our existing mathematics. > In fact, it could require a mathematical theory with more than 10^120 > axioms to decide. There will always be such properties of 3 that are > unknowable/unanswerable, no matter how big and complex a theory of > mathematics we develop, so in a very real sense, "3" is bigger than our > universe, and much bigger than the information complexity of the first > billion characters of ?. Actually "?" is a perfect example of how > mathematical objects can have greater information content than the > universe, you can't even write down the digits of ? in our universe. Where > then, do the digits of ? exist? > > >> > >> >> > The finiteness of our universe also means there are axiomatic >> systems which contain more axioms than there are atoms in our universe, so >> we could never conceive of them. >> > >> > >> > A logical system is only as strong as its weakest axiom, that's why >> axioms need to be simple and intuitively obvious. > > > Principles in physics don't need to be intuitively obvious. I think it may > be a mistake to require the same for mathematical axioms. It may be that > very counterintuitive axioms are required to build more powerful and > effective mathematics, which should be the only and true test of a > mathematical theory. > > > >> We could just add the Goldbach Conjecture as an axiom but it's truth is >> not intuitively obvious and it would be very embarrassing if after doing >> this a computer crunching through huge numbers happen to find an even >> number that was not the sum of two prime numbers, it would mean all the >> work done in mathematics since the axiom had been added was meaningless. >> > > Yes, mathematicians tend to be conservative when it comes to adding or > changing axioms, ann not altogether without good reason, but I think G?del > was on to something when he said empiricism has a place in mathematics. > > Jason > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 18:19:46 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 11:19:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] humanity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 10:51 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Adrian, are you sort of including selfishness here? That is, if we could > empathize fully we would understand people better and do more sharing with > them? > One could phrase it that way. That would not include every definition of "selfishness" - I can easily imagine someone who telepathically understands ("empathizes with", for some definitions thereof) everyone else and yet still deliberately chooses to serve their own interests exclusively. > The question, if taken as Adrian suggests, makes no sense, since logic is > clearly an asset. > No, no, it makes sense. The answer is clearly "no", but the question makes sense: there exist people who go around criticizing things that, to the rest of us, are clearly assets. They perceive some flaw that, to them, makes these things undesirable. Usually these "flaws" are stylistic or aesthetic only, or confuse the origin of a thing for its present morality - such as those who claim that everything and anything that white men came up with, is poison because white men came up with it. In the case of logic, said people utterly ignore that people other than white men also came up with it, completely independently. Their objective is to find things to be outraged at, not truly to improve the lives of those they claim to represent. If they were truly looking to improve lives, they would look to use the resources at hand regardless of origin - much like we can make use of the results of Nazi medical research, even if we would never permit their experiments to be done again today. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 19:10:09 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 14:10:09 -0500 Subject: [ExI] humanity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ah, Yes, the progressives who give liberals a bad name. White men, indeed. Indians, Arabs etc. - math, philosophy, etc. Outrage is certainly among our most popular fads. "Have a Happy Xmas" would get you metaphorically strangled. It has to be 'Merry' and so on. And some would say "X stands for the unknown" Doesn't this sort of thing just make you want to tear your hair out? Isn't it outrageously ironic that the people at the tops of our best universities, are exhibiting such illogic, stereotyping, throwing the baby out with the bath water, sucking up to their constituency with obvious examples? Now they have me questioning whether my dislike of scifi written by black people is racism or just an objective judgment. bah bah bah Logic as a detriment does make sense if you assume that the questioner is IQ-deprived. Sorry I can't say that on Quora. bill w On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 1:22 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 10:51 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Adrian, are you sort of including selfishness here? That is, if we could >> empathize fully we would understand people better and do more sharing with >> them? >> > > One could phrase it that way. That would not include every definition of > "selfishness" - I can easily imagine someone who telepathically understands > ("empathizes with", for some definitions thereof) everyone else and yet > still deliberately chooses to serve their own interests exclusively. > > >> The question, if taken as Adrian suggests, makes no sense, since logic is >> clearly an asset. >> > > No, no, it makes sense. The answer is clearly "no", but the question > makes sense: there exist people who go around criticizing things that, to > the rest of us, are clearly assets. They perceive some flaw that, to them, > makes these things undesirable. Usually these "flaws" are stylistic or > aesthetic only, or confuse the origin of a thing for its present morality - > such as those who claim that everything and anything that white men came up > with, is poison because white men came up with it. > > In the case of logic, said people utterly ignore that people other than > white men also came up with it, completely independently. Their objective > is to find things to be outraged at, not truly to improve the lives of > those they claim to represent. If they were truly looking to improve > lives, they would look to use the resources at hand regardless of origin - > much like we can make use of the results of Nazi medical research, even if > we would never permit their experiments to be done again today. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 19:25:39 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 14:25:39 -0500 Subject: [ExI] the biggest non sequitur Message-ID: >From Douglas Adams (Hitchhiker's Guide...) (Not word for word) The Vogons, incensed at the insult from Earth, sent a gigantic fleet to destroy it, but thanks to a monstrous error in scale, it was swallowed by a small dog. If that is not the most clever way for a writer to get out of an existential crisis, I'd like to hear your choice. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 17:48:40 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 17:48:40 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Twenty new words of the day! Message-ID: After closely monitoring changes in the lexicon, Merriam-Webster added 455 terms to the dictionary in October 2021. If you don't know what a FLUFFERNUTTER (N.) is, or OOBLECK (N.), now you can look them up. :) BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Nov 7 01:36:17 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2021 20:36:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] memo Message-ID: To all family members Re: Jennie's brain. Her sexual feelings will now trigger a feeling of being quite cold, the sexier the colder (the hotter the colder, get it?). This should strongly interfere with any sexual activity. I also paid for an app that will reset her appestat. She will effectively be on a diet, as she is getting rather chubby. You older folks need to be reassured that these changes can be reversed just by changing the program controlling the implants. Best wishes, Garcia Kwame Goldstein Now - what year is this? For the tech? For the moral implications? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Nov 7 04:01:46 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2021 21:01:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] memo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000b01d7d38c$2f31e440$8d95acc0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] memo To all family members Re: Jennie's brain. >?Her sexual feelings will now trigger a feeling of being quite cold, ? Garcia Kwame Goldstein >?Now - what year is this? ? bill w I know, professor! Nineteen Eighty Four! Fun aside please: my son?s 10th grade class is studying Orwell. I posted a note to his teacher, cheering her on and offering every encouragement. His assignment was to write a passage and translate it to Newspeak. This was the result: NEWSPEAK VERSION Greetings comrades! It is Big Brother with a big message. A doublepluslarge ungood has moved through London recentwise. Some of your fellow comrades getted pornosec unlaw-wise from the proles through the black market. Pornosec is prolefeed made by an unmany group of womans in FicDep and gived straightwise to the proles in secret envelopes. Remember, comrades, pornosec is goodest for the proles, not for you. The proles need prolefeed to keep them unoldthinkful and happy. However, when watching pornosec, you think pornosecwise singlewise. Our doubleplusunfriend Goldstein and the Brotherhood want to give this pornosec to comrades of The Outer Party to make your minds uncleanful, your thoughts uncollected, and unhelp our society anywise. Uncontrolful sexual crimethink beginned in the antetimes, when capitalists ruled. As you know, the anteworld was uncleanful, unwealthful, and sexcrimeful, ruled by men who obeyed no laws and treated other comrades doubleplusungoodwise. Capitalist rulers sleeped with womans as they chose, leaving plusmany womans childful and plusunwealthful. Womans of Airstrip One, we antesaved you from these crimethinkful mans, and we will do so postwise. However, you must work to protect yourselves too. To see pornosec unlaw-wise makes mans crimethinkful and sexcrimeful, and makes womans chase doubleplusunsafe fun. Womans, remember that creating children is unmore than your duty to the Party. To enjoy sex is to maluse and ungood it; to love your spouse more than Big Brother is crimethink. Pornosec breaks your bellyfeel for Big Brother, your doublethink, and creates doublepluspain! I extend my friendwise congratulations to the Junior Anti-sex League on their winful campaign versus unlawful Pornosec use by the Outer Party! We catched two persons in the anteday involved with the use and giving of such prolefeed to the Outer Party; they have been sended straightwise to Miniluv to cleanthink again. The Junior Anti-sex League does a doubleplusgood thing ? showing the womans of now and post generations that they are unequal to the mans that anteruled society, rather far gooder; by nature they are gooder supporters of the Party and do their duty with strength and honor. Young womans, take this doubleplusgood chance, and join the Junior Anti-sex League today! Groupwise, we will fight pornosec maluse, and postkill sexcrime fullwise! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Sun Nov 7 05:31:44 2021 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2021 23:31:44 -0600 Subject: [ExI] the biggest non sequitur In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Vl'hurgs, not Vogons. The Vogons are the ones who destroyed the Earth out of sheer bureaucratic apathy. But yes, Douglas Adams was, indeed, one of the most clever writers to have ever lived. I'm particularly fond of "[the robots] unpacked the backup central mission module from its storage housing, carried it out of the storage chamber, fell out of the ship and went spinning off into the void. This provided the first major clue as to what it was that was wrong [with the central mission module they were replacing]." https://www.penguinrandomhouse.ca/books/661/mostly-harmless-by-douglas-adams/9780739332146/excerpt On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 1:27 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > From Douglas Adams (Hitchhiker's Guide...) > > (Not word for word) The Vogons, incensed at the insult from Earth, sent > a gigantic fleet to destroy it, but thanks to a monstrous error in scale, > it was swallowed by a small dog. > > If that is not the most clever way for a writer to get out of an > existential crisis, I'd like to hear your choice. bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Nov 7 10:15:56 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 10:15:56 +0000 Subject: [ExI] memo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53730341-20e9-aec6-0be4-0c2807fea9b5@zaiboc.net> On 07/11/2021 01:36, bill w wrote: > > To all family members > Re:? Jennie's brain. > > Her sexual feelings will now trigger a feeling of being quite cold, > the sexier the colder (the hotter the colder, get it?).? This should > strongly interfere with any sexual activity. > > I also paid for an app that?will reset her appestat.? She will > effectively be on a diet, as she is getting rather chubby. > > You older folks need to be reassured that these changes can be > reversed just by changing the program controlling the?implants. > > Best wishes, > Garcia Kwame Goldstein > > Now - what year is this?? For the tech?? For the moral implications? Heh, that's easy. For the tech., say 2045. For the morality, that depends what culture you live in. If Islam is still around then, say 2045 (or any earlier year, of course) in an islamic theocracy. In a Chinese communist dictatorship, any time at all. In the west generally, maybe 1845. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Nov 7 14:42:29 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 06:42:29 -0800 Subject: [ExI] data visualization Message-ID: <001201d7d3e5$b108e280$131aa780$@rainier66.com> Cool check out this. Go into time-lapse (button upper right in this view.) Since this is daily data, what might be more informative is a view covering about 2 years with weekly or even monthly averages, showing every country on the planet: https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#county-view We can see the value of visualization like this one. It is more informative than a huge matrix full of numbers. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Nov 7 16:16:19 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 10:16:19 -0600 Subject: [ExI] memo In-Reply-To: <53730341-20e9-aec6-0be4-0c2807fea9b5@zaiboc.net> References: <53730341-20e9-aec6-0be4-0c2807fea9b5@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Wow - you really are an optimist - 25 years to these changes - wow again. bill w On Sun, Nov 7, 2021 at 4:18 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 07/11/2021 01:36, bill w wrote: > > > To all family members > Re: Jennie's brain. > > Her sexual feelings will now trigger a feeling of being quite cold, the > sexier the colder (the hotter the colder, get it?). This should strongly > interfere with any sexual activity. > > I also paid for an app that will reset her appestat. She will effectively > be on a diet, as she is getting rather chubby. > > You older folks need to be reassured that these changes can be reversed > just by changing the program controlling the implants. > > Best wishes, > Garcia Kwame Goldstein > > Now - what year is this? For the tech? For the moral implications? > > > Heh, that's easy. > > For the tech., say 2045. > > For the morality, that depends what culture you live in. If Islam is still > around then, say 2045 (or any earlier year, of course) in an islamic > theocracy. In a Chinese communist dictatorship, any time at all. In the > west generally, maybe 1845. > > Ben > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Nov 7 16:18:33 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 10:18:33 -0600 Subject: [ExI] memo In-Reply-To: <000b01d7d38c$2f31e440$8d95acc0$@rainier66.com> References: <000b01d7d38c$2f31e440$8d95acc0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: You mean you wrote that and did not get too nauseous partway and have to stop? bill w On Sat, Nov 6, 2021 at 11:03 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* [ExI] memo > > > > To all family members > > Re: Jennie's brain. > > > > >?Her sexual feelings will now trigger a feeling of being quite cold, ? Garcia > Kwame Goldstein > > > > >?Now - what year is this? ? > > bill w > > > > > > > > I know, professor! Nineteen Eighty Four! > > > > Fun aside please: my son?s 10th grade class is studying Orwell. I > posted a note to his teacher, cheering her on and offering every > encouragement. > > > > His assignment was to write a passage and translate it to Newspeak. This > was the result: > > > > > > NEWSPEAK VERSION > > > > Greetings *comrades*! It is *Big Brother* with a big message. A > *doublepluslarge* *ungood* has moved through London *recentwise*. Some of > your fellow comrades *getted* *pornosec unlaw-wise* from the *proles* > through the black market. Pornosec is *prolefeed* made by an *unmany* > group of *womans* in *FicDep* and *gived* *straightwise* to the proles in > secret envelopes. Remember, comrades, pornosec is *goodest* for the > proles, not for you. The proles need prolefeed to keep them *unoldthinkful > *and happy. However, when watching pornosec, you think *pornosecwise > singlewise*. Our *doubleplusunfriend* *Goldstein* and *the Brotherhood* > want to give this pornosec to comrades of *The Outer Party* to make your > minds *uncleanful*, your thoughts *uncollected*, and *unhelp* our society > *anywise*. > > > > *Uncontrolful* sexual *crimethink beginned* in the *antetimes*, when > capitalists ruled. As you know, the *anteworld* was uncleanful, > *unwealthful*, and *sexcrimeful*, ruled by men who obeyed no laws and > treated other comrades *doubleplusungoodwise*. Capitalist rulers *sleeped* > with womans as they chose, leaving *plusmany* womans *childful *and > *plusunwealthful*. Womans of *Airstrip One*, we *antesaved* you from > these *crimethinkful mans*, and we will do so *postwise*. However, you > must work to protect yourselves too. To see pornosec unlaw-wise makes mans > crimethinkful and sexcrimeful, and makes womans chase *doubleplusunsafe* > fun. Womans, remember that creating children is *unmore* than your duty > to the Party. To enjoy sex is to *maluse* and ungood it; to love your > spouse more than Big Brother is crimethink. Pornosec breaks your > *bellyfeel* for Big Brother, your *doublethink*, and creates > *doublepluspain*! > > > I extend my *friendwise* congratulations to the *Junior Anti-sex League* > on their *winful* campaign versus unlawful Pornosec use by the Outer > Party! We *catched* two *persons* in the *anteday* involved with the use > and giving of such prolefeed to the Outer Party; they have been *sended* > straightwise to *Miniluv* to *cleanthink* again. The Junior Anti-sex > League does a *doubleplusgood* thing ? showing the womans of now and post > generations that they are *unequal* to the mans that *anteruled* society, > rather far *gooder*; by nature they are gooder supporters of the Party > and do their duty with strength and honor. Young womans, take this > doubleplusgood chance, and join the Junior Anti-sex League today! > *Groupwise*, we will fight pornosec maluse, and *postkill* *sexcrime* > *fullwise*! > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Nov 7 16:45:16 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 08:45:16 -0800 Subject: [ExI] memo In-Reply-To: References: <000b01d7d38c$2f31e440$8d95acc0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001501d7d3f6$d7f32250$87d966f0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] memo >?You mean you wrote that and did not get too nauseous partway and have to stop? bill w I had nothing to do with it Billw. I didn?t even know that was the assignment until after it was completely written. Orwell is making a big comeback. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Nov 7 16:45:34 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 08:45:34 -0800 Subject: [ExI] memo In-Reply-To: <53730341-20e9-aec6-0be4-0c2807fea9b5@zaiboc.net> References: <53730341-20e9-aec6-0be4-0c2807fea9b5@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: > > On 07/11/2021 01:36, bill w wrote: > > > To all family members > Re: Jennie's brain. > > Her sexual feelings will now trigger a feeling of being quite cold, the > sexier the colder (the hotter the colder, get it?). This should strongly > interfere with any sexual activity. > > I also paid for an app that will reset her appestat. She will effectively > be on a diet, as she is getting rather chubby. > > You older folks need to be reassured that these changes can be reversed > just by changing the program controlling the implants. > > Best wishes, > Garcia Kwame Goldstein > > Now - what year is this? For the tech? For the moral implications? > > If it just takes changing the program (presuming the typical level of cybersecurity currently used by people who feel the need to put similar limits on other peoples' computer activity), how quickly would a typical Jennie find someone to undo the sexual feeling mod? And how likely would it be that whoever undid it, if they found Jennie attractive, would install sexual feelings toward that person (perhaps with Jennie's consent as part of the transaction)? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Nov 7 16:50:23 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 10:50:23 -0600 Subject: [ExI] memo In-Reply-To: <001501d7d3f6$d7f32250$87d966f0$@rainier66.com> References: <000b01d7d38c$2f31e440$8d95acc0$@rainier66.com> <001501d7d3f6$d7f32250$87d966f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: If human beings are still around hundreds of years from now, Orwell's name will too. bill w On Sun, Nov 7, 2021 at 10:47 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] memo > > > > >?You mean you wrote that and did not get too nauseous partway and have > to stop? bill w > > > > > > I had nothing to do with it Billw. I didn?t even know that was the > assignment until after it was completely written. Orwell is making a big > comeback. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Nov 7 17:03:24 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 09:03:24 -0800 Subject: [ExI] memo In-Reply-To: References: <53730341-20e9-aec6-0be4-0c2807fea9b5@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <003501d7d3f9$60ef6c60$22ce4520$@rainier66.com> On 07/11/2021 01:36, bill w wrote: ? Re: Jennie's brain. >?Her sexual feelings will now trigger a feeling of being quite cold, the sexier the colder (the hotter the colder, get it?). ? We get that. The question is this: does it work both ways? Hey Jennie, I have an idea, let?s go snow camping? >?Garcia Kwame Goldstein Billw, was this a fun coincidence, or were you making a sly reference to Emmanuel Goldstein? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Nov 7 17:13:43 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 09:13:43 -0800 Subject: [ExI] memo In-Reply-To: References: <000b01d7d38c$2f31e440$8d95acc0$@rainier66.com> <001501d7d3f6$d7f32250$87d966f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005601d7d3fa$d1b62960$75227c20$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] memo >?If human beings are still around hundreds of years from now, Orwell's name will too. bill w Thanks for that sir. You made my day with that comment. For a while, all the good guys were falling out of favor: Orwell, Bradbury, even Golding. Now all three have come roaring back with a vengeance. Here?s a fun one for yas: I was talking to a local who is in his freshman year at UC Irvine. I asked what was really turning him on there (well, besides that I mean.) He called attention to an English class of all things (surprise number 1.) He isn?t even an English major, his major is accounting. I asked what about that English class. He answered with an even bigger surprise: the professor had assigned Lukianoff and Haidt?s The Coddling of the American Mind. That a young person should be fired up by that book is most pleasantly astonishing. I and my friends (all around 60) are and have been for years fans of Haidt, but young people tend to extremes. I perceive Haidt as a moderate, or if not moderate, certainly open minded and insightful. So we have this 18 year old who is finding a moderate insightful and helpful. Conclusion: there is hope. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Nov 7 17:35:54 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 09:35:54 -0800 Subject: [ExI] tragic dataset Message-ID: <001e01d7d3fd$eb67e440$c237acc0$@rainier66.com> Perhaps everyone here has heard of what happened at the tragic Astroworld event. >From the point of view of a medical experiment, this event really has it all: huge crowd, no masks, in Texas which doesn't allow vaccination mandates, good traceability, huge numbers of participants, and as an added bonus, the participants are willing test subjects. We debated long over whether outdoor events are super-spreaders of covid. I saw no convincing evidence they are super-spreaders. Now we have a crowd way more densely packed than a stadium event, so tightly packed that people were being crushed to death. They were raving, so that would be at least the equivalent of cheering for the home team only moreso: raving should be more spready than cheering, because one's own team only has the ball part of the time, but the rap stars are up there the whole time. Lots of body-to-body contact here (which is presumably spreadier than any stadium sports event) plenty of people there who were presumably healthy when they arrived. Skerjillions of data points, all voluntary lab rats, sheesh this event has it all. Now. we get to see: are outdoor events superspreaders? Speculations please? It durn sure looks like they aughta be. If this isn't a super spreader, I am puzzled. If this turns out to not spread a lotta covid, I am ready to declare outdoor crowd events as generally safe. Well, you might be trampled or crushed to death of course. But other than that. Ideas? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 25256 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Nov 7 17:49:19 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 17:49:19 +0000 Subject: [ExI] memo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0d955fff-e89d-0077-4444-c6ddac2a7667@zaiboc.net> On 07/11/2021 17:13, bill w wrote: > > If human beings are still around hundreds of years from now, Orwell's > name will too.? bill w That depends, I should think, on whether the humans hundreds of years from now have heeded his warning. I can't see any regime that takes his warnings as inspiration for how to run a society, allowing people to remember him (in the long run, anyway. This article on how communist China handles it is quite interesting: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/01/why-1984-and-animal-farm-arent-banned-china/580156/) Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Nov 7 17:57:25 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 09:57:25 -0800 Subject: [ExI] tragic dataset In-Reply-To: <001e01d7d3fd$eb67e440$c237acc0$@rainier66.com> References: <001e01d7d3fd$eb67e440$c237acc0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003501d7d400$ec5968d0$c50c3a70$@rainier66.com> Do let me offer some BOTECs please. Texas has a population of about 30 million proles. Their new covid case rate is about 3k a day so about one in 10k per day, new infection rate. The Travis Scott concert was attended by over 50k, and can presume (I hope) that at least some of the attendees had enough sense to not get in that deadly mosh pit, but let us round down for good measure, to about 50k and recognize that we should see on the average about 5 new infections a day from a crowd that size, ja? I used this technique for first-estimate analysis of the Sturgis rally in 2020: take the average background infection rate, multiply by the number of attendees and the product is the expected value of new infections one might see if all these stayed home. I am getting about 5. These are generally young people (sheesh would hope anyone old enough to have any sense wouldn't go into that crushing morass of raving protoplasm) so one might consider them better than average for resistance to virus, but we can assume away that advantage for good measure, ja? I look at that and would estimate every infected person in that (literally) crushing mob would spread to a coupla dozen around her. So. I am thinking perhaps 60 cases traceable to Astroworld? I will stay with 60, even given that my 5 infections estimate is the expected infection rate per day. I used that to estimate havers, knowing that this is the background rate of daily catchers. I suspect this is a waaay underestimate of havers, but. I am willing to stay with the very conservative estimate of 60 new catchers traceable to Astroworld. If there aren't at least 60 new cases that trace back to this concert, then I must conclude that outdoor crowd events are not spreaders. If 60 or less, then the notion of outdoor social distancing and outdoor masking are irrelevant and silly. 60 new cases is my comfortable threshold, which is estimated as conservatively as I can justify. Other estimates? Virus hipsters, ideas please? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Nov 7 19:47:34 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 13:47:34 -0600 Subject: [ExI] tragic dataset In-Reply-To: <003501d7d400$ec5968d0$c50c3a70$@rainier66.com> References: <001e01d7d3fd$eb67e440$c237acc0$@rainier66.com> <003501d7d400$ec5968d0$c50c3a70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I read today of a rap concert where several people died. It could have happened to me: I was at the New Orleans dome for a concert: Wet Willie, Charlie Daniels etc. Last on the program was Greg Allman. When he came on the stage there was a mass movement in that direction and I was in it. Could not scratch your nose without getting permission to raise your arm. Felt sorry for those with claustrophobia. But no problems of getting stomped on, which is what must have happened in Texas. There were several heart attacks. Of course there was no way to distance oneself unless one was on the outskirts. I think being outdoors is safe. I think all of the above is repeating myself. If so, 'scuse please. bill w On Sun, Nov 7, 2021 at 11:59 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > Do let me offer some BOTECs please. > > > > Texas has a population of about 30 million proles. Their new covid case > rate is about 3k a day so about one in 10k per day, new infection rate. > > > > The Travis Scott concert was attended by over 50k, and can presume (I > hope) that at least some of the attendees had enough sense to not get in > that deadly mosh pit, but let us round down for good measure, to about 50k > and recognize that we should see on the average about 5 new infections a > day from a crowd that size, ja? > > > > I used this technique for first-estimate analysis of the Sturgis rally in > 2020: take the average background infection rate, multiply by the number of > attendees and the product is the expected value of new infections one might > see if all these stayed home. I am getting about 5. These are generally > young people (sheesh would hope anyone old enough to have any sense > wouldn?t go into that crushing morass of raving protoplasm) so one might > consider them better than average for resistance to virus, but we can > assume away that advantage for good measure, ja? > > > > I look at that and would estimate every infected person in that > (literally) crushing mob would spread to a coupla dozen around her. So? I > am thinking perhaps 60 cases traceable to Astroworld? I will stay with 60, > even given that my 5 infections estimate is the expected infection rate per > day. I used that to estimate havers, knowing that this is the background > rate of daily catchers. I suspect this is a waaay underestimate of havers, > but? I am willing to stay with the very conservative estimate of 60 new > catchers traceable to Astroworld. > > > > If there aren?t at least 60 new cases that trace back to this concert, > then I must conclude that outdoor crowd events are not spreaders. If 60 or > less, then the notion of outdoor social distancing and outdoor masking are > irrelevant and silly. 60 new cases is my comfortable threshold, which is > estimated as conservatively as I can justify. Other estimates? > > > > Virus hipsters, ideas please? > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Nov 7 19:54:32 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 13:54:32 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Lysenko Message-ID: Does anyone know if he still rules the roost in Russia? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Nov 7 20:10:09 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 14:10:09 -0600 Subject: [ExI] memo In-Reply-To: <005601d7d3fa$d1b62960$75227c20$@rainier66.com> References: <000b01d7d38c$2f31e440$8d95acc0$@rainier66.com> <001501d7d3f6$d7f32250$87d966f0$@rainier66.com> <005601d7d3fa$d1b62960$75227c20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I loved the Haidt work until I realized that he seems to view conservatives as using more moral dimensions than liberals and seems supportive of that. I wrote him and expressed my view that some dimensions are more important to conservatives than others, such as loyalty. Liberals are less loyal to governments and to people than conservatives and more loyal to ideas than to people. This time he did not respond to my criticism. Haidt has revised his online test and I cannot say that I approve of the changes. bill w On Sun, Nov 7, 2021 at 11:15 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] memo > > > > >?If human beings are still around hundreds of years from now, Orwell's > name will too. bill w > > > > > > Thanks for that sir. You made my day with that comment. > > > > For a while, all the good guys were falling out of favor: Orwell, > Bradbury, even Golding. Now all three have come roaring back with a > vengeance. > > > > Here?s a fun one for yas: I was talking to a local who is in his freshman > year at UC Irvine. I asked what was really turning him on there (well, > besides that I mean.) He called attention to an English class of all > things (surprise number 1.) He isn?t even an English major, his major is > accounting. I asked what about that English class. He answered with an > even bigger surprise: the professor had assigned Lukianoff and Haidt?s The > Coddling of the American Mind. > > > > That a young person should be fired up by that book is most pleasantly > astonishing. I and my friends (all around 60) are and have been for years > fans of Haidt, but young people tend to extremes. I perceive Haidt as a > moderate, or if not moderate, certainly open minded and insightful. So we > have this 18 year old who is finding a moderate insightful and helpful. > > > > Conclusion: there is hope. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Nov 7 20:12:05 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 14:12:05 -0600 Subject: [ExI] memo In-Reply-To: <003501d7d3f9$60ef6c60$22ce4520$@rainier66.com> References: <53730341-20e9-aec6-0be4-0c2807fea9b5@zaiboc.net> <003501d7d3f9$60ef6c60$22ce4520$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Coincidence - I don't know that Goldstein. I was just suggesting Jewishness. I don't think I would want to make love to a person who has uncontrolled shivering. bill w On Sun, Nov 7, 2021 at 11:05 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > On 07/11/2021 01:36, bill w wrote: > > > > ? > > Re: Jennie's brain. > > > > >?Her sexual feelings will now trigger a feeling of being quite cold, the > sexier the colder (the hotter the colder, get it?). ? > > > > We get that. The question is this: does it work both ways? Hey Jennie, I > have an idea, let?s go snow camping? > > > > > > > > > > >?Garcia Kwame Goldstein > > > > Billw, was this a fun coincidence, or were you making a sly reference to > Emmanuel Goldstein? > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Mon Nov 8 10:09:08 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 10:09:08 +0000 Subject: [ExI] More LIGO events detected Message-ID: Astronomers Detect a 'Tsunami' of Gravitational Waves. Here's Where They're Coming From MICHELLE STARR 8 NOVEMBER 2021 Quote: "We've detected 35 events. That's massive! In contrast, we made three detections in our first observing run, which lasted four months in 2015-16. This really is a new era for gravitational wave detections and the growing population of discoveries is revealing so much information about the life and death of stars throughout the Universe." Of the 35 new detections, 32 are most likely the result of mergers between pairs of black holes. This is when pairs of black holes on a close orbit are drawn in by mutual gravity, eventually colliding to form one single, more massive black hole. -------------------- BillK From pharos at gmail.com Tue Nov 9 13:24:24 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 13:24:24 +0000 Subject: [ExI] More Robots - Fewer Boring Jobs Message-ID: Rise of the Robots Speeds Up in Pandemic With U.S. Labor Scarce Alexandre Tanzi 6 Nov 2021 Quotes: Labor shortages and rising wages are pushing U.S. business to invest in automation. A recent Federal Reserve survey of chief financial officers found that at firms with difficulty hiring, one-third are implementing or exploring automation to replace workers. Some economists have warned that automation could make America?s income and wealth gaps worse. ?If it continues, labor demand will grow slowly, inequality will increase, and the prospects for many low-education workers will not be very good,? says Daron Acemoglu, a professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, who testified Wednesday at a Senate hearing on the issue. ----------------------- Corporations exporting jobs to China has kept US wages low. Great idea for the managers. But when unemployed support payments are similar to low wages people won't bother working boring low-wage jobs. Reducing support payments won't force people back to boring jobs either. The rich managers will face millions of people in rebellions and riots so the support payments to the masses will have to continue. It looks like the pandemic has started the age of universal basic income paying the masses to sit at home and watch TV. BillK From pharos at gmail.com Tue Nov 9 14:02:28 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 14:02:28 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Big Media is turning into Big Brother Message-ID: Sky wants to socially re-engineer its viewers. Time to switch channels. BRENDAN O'NEILL CHIEF POLITICAL WRITER 9th November 2021 (This article is about UK media, but I'm sure the USA media is already well aware of these techniques). Quotes: TV news used to be about informing people. Now it?s about manipulating us. Now it?s about socially engineering us to make us more green. Now its ambition is to be a ?powerful tool of persuasion' in order to transform viewers from the polluting pests we currently are into the eco-switched-on citizens of the future. At least that?s the conclusion one is forced to draw from the deeply chilling report commissioned by Sky and authored by the Behavioural Insights Team, which is part-owned by the Cabinet Office. Broadcasters must help to change the ?attitudes and behaviours of citizens?, the report declares. If this brazenly stated, Big Brother-style crusade to reorder the minds of the TV-viewing masses doesn?t have you reaching for the ?Off? button on your remote control, I don?t know what will. ?We just want to nudge you towards cleaner, healthier ways of living? sounds better than ?We want to re-engineer your thoughts and habits to bring them into line with what we consider to be correct moral behaviour?. This emphasis on subtly sewing political and moral instruction into the background of pretty much everything is central to the ideology of nudge. Whether it?s nudge policies designed to change our food choices or the behavioural science that was deployed to ensure public obedience during the lockdown, the idea is that this social pressure ? sorry, social modelling ? must always be deployed in as natural and gentle a way as possible. People shouldn?t even really notice it, the nudging elites say. This captures just how authoritarian and anti-democratic nudge has become. ------------ Remember - Big Brother knows best what is good for you! BillK From spike at rainier66.com Tue Nov 9 14:53:09 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 06:53:09 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Big Media is turning into Big Brother In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001101d7d579$83cf02a0$8b6d07e0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Cc: BillK ... >...?We just want to nudge you towards cleaner, healthier ways of living? sounds better than ?We want to re-engineer your thoughts and habits to bring them into line with what we consider to be correct moral behaviour?.... ------------ >...Remember - Big Brother knows best what is good for you! BillK _______________________________________________ BillK, is this just now coming to Britain? We have been doing that in the colonies since always. The popular press mostly instigated the war which broke us away from Britain to start with. Our current cultural civil war is being fueled by the popular press. Freedom of the press means that cannot be stopped. Regarding Big Brother, I was thinking about something on which you might have insights. George Orwell was a British guy who wrote his most important work in the late 40s. By that time, he would perhaps recognize that the biggest audience was in the states. The USA is really tuned into the notion of growing government power and influence, which is why the constitution is written the way it is. 70 years later, Orwell novels are literature classics, being studied in American high schools to this day (thank you, may your memory live forever St. George.) BillK, or anyone else, do you suppose Orwell himself realized he was writing novels specifically to appeal to Americans? If so, it worked. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Nov 9 15:17:37 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 09:17:37 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Big Media is turning into Big Brother In-Reply-To: <001101d7d579$83cf02a0$8b6d07e0$@rainier66.com> References: <001101d7d579$83cf02a0$8b6d07e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Product placement started long ago (though I have no data). Marketing through films and TV started there. Even though a lot of us fast forward through commercials, I can still tell what they are advertising (and to my knowledge I have never bought anything advertised in films, TV, etc.). It seems highly likely that a company wants the shows it pays for to do something for its bottom line. There must be pressure from them on the writers and producers of the game shows, dramas, comedies and so on to include some references to their products if at all possible. You won't see pantyhose references on Monday Night Football - you will see beer, fast cars, etc. Well, they are paying for it. What's wrong with it? It is just advertising, though many people may not be aware of it. Are people duped into buying stuff they don't need, want, can afford, and so on? Are they being manipulated? Every second of every day. We have a Consumer Protection Agency but you cannot protect fools. This reminds me of the flap in the 50s about subliminal advertising, which never did prove to work. I simply don't see anything sinister here, though many of them might be left-handed. Oxymoron - marketing ethics bill w On Tue, Nov 9, 2021 at 8:55 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat > Cc: BillK > ... > > >...?We just want to nudge you towards cleaner, healthier ways of living? > sounds better than ?We want to re-engineer your thoughts and habits to > bring them into line with what we consider to be correct moral > behaviour?.... > ------------ > > >...Remember - Big Brother knows best what is good for you! > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > > > > BillK, is this just now coming to Britain? We have been doing that in the > colonies since always. The popular press mostly instigated the war which > broke us away from Britain to start with. Our current cultural civil war > is being fueled by the popular press. Freedom of the press means that > cannot be stopped. > > Regarding Big Brother, I was thinking about something on which you might > have insights. George Orwell was a British guy who wrote his most > important work in the late 40s. By that time, he would perhaps recognize > that the biggest audience was in the states. The USA is really tuned into > the notion of growing government power and influence, which is why the > constitution is written the way it is. 70 years later, Orwell novels are > literature classics, being studied in American high schools to this day > (thank you, may your memory live forever St. George.) > > BillK, or anyone else, do you suppose Orwell himself realized he was > writing novels specifically to appeal to Americans? If so, it worked. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Nov 9 15:52:20 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 07:52:20 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Big Media is turning into Big Brother In-Reply-To: References: <001101d7d579$83cf02a0$8b6d07e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002601d7d581$c7c7b350$575719f0$@rainier66.com> ?.> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >?I simply don't see anything sinister here?. >?Oxymoron - marketing ethics >?bill w Ja. Billw, one recognizes that marketing companies do not exist for our benefit. They exist to make money through selling products by influencing consumers. Similarly, politicians do not exist for our benefit. They exist to make money through seizing power by influencing voters. Neither are about our traditional view of ethical behavior. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Nov 9 15:52:50 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 15:52:50 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Big Media is turning into Big Brother In-Reply-To: <001101d7d579$83cf02a0$8b6d07e0$@rainier66.com> References: <001101d7d579$83cf02a0$8b6d07e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Nov 2021 at 14:53, wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat > Cc: BillK > ... > > >...?We just want to nudge you towards cleaner, healthier ways of living? > sounds better than ?We want to re-engineer your thoughts and habits to bring them into line with what we consider to be correct moral behaviour?.... > ------------ > > >...Remember - Big Brother knows best what is good for you! > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > > > BillK, is this just now coming to Britain? We have been doing that in the colonies since always. The popular press mostly instigated the war which broke us away from Britain to start with. Our current cultural civil war is being fueled by the popular press. Freedom of the press means that cannot be stopped. > > Regarding Big Brother, I was thinking about something on which you might have insights. George Orwell was a British guy who wrote his most important work in the late 40s. By that time, he would perhaps recognize that the biggest audience was in the states. The USA is really tuned into the notion of growing government power and influence, which is why the constitution is written the way it is. 70 years later, Orwell novels are literature classics, being studied in American high schools to this day (thank you, may your memory live forever St. George.) > > BillK, or anyone else, do you suppose Orwell himself realized he was writing novels specifically to appeal to Americans? If so, it worked. > > spike > ------------------------------------ This article isn't about adverts or propaganda, which have been around since printing was invented. :) This 'nudging' is intended not to be noticed as ads or propaganda. It is to brainwash people into thinking that it is showing the way that everyone normally behaves and if you want to be popular and accepted into society, then you should behave like that also. If you notice that it is propaganda, then it has failed. Orwell never visited the USA, but his later writing definitely had the US in mind. See: (The internet makes everybody an expert!) ;) Quote: In the last, and perhaps the most delightful, of these selections, Orwell reminds us of how post-Civil War monopoly capitalism tarnished the old, untrammeled, egalitarian America of the 1840s. But the article is no polemic; it is, rather, an evocation of the America of George Orwell?s fondest imaginings?the free and buoyant land that is more symbol than geographic or political fact but is none the less real for that. ?Richard F. Snow ------------------------------ BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Nov 9 16:12:31 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 10:12:31 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Big Media is turning into Big Brother In-Reply-To: References: <001101d7d579$83cf02a0$8b6d07e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: This 'nudging' is intended not to be noticed as ads or propaganda. It is to brainwash people into thinking that it is showing the way that everyone normally behaves and if you want to be popular and accepted into society, then you should behave like that also. If you notice that it is propaganda, then it has failed. Pressure to conform starts before kindergarten, continues with parents, peers, TV, etc. It never stops. Society does not like nonconformists - they scare people. I don't know where to draw the line separating propaganda from the rest, but sneering teen girls aren't doing it, like they are doing exclusion of people who don't conform. Brainwashing as a term is way, way beyond what we are encountering in society today. To use it in this context is a diminution of it. It should be restricted to situations of isolation, starvation, beatings, and other methods of torture. It should be noted that according to people who lived through Korean war torture, that it didn't work very well at all. bill w On Tue, Nov 9, 2021 at 10:00 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, 9 Nov 2021 at 14:53, wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat > > Cc: BillK > > ... > > > > >...?We just want to nudge you towards cleaner, healthier ways of living? > > sounds better than ?We want to re-engineer your thoughts and habits to > bring them into line with what we consider to be correct moral > behaviour?.... > > ------------ > > > > >...Remember - Big Brother knows best what is good for you! > > > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > BillK, is this just now coming to Britain? We have been doing that in > the colonies since always. The popular press mostly instigated the war > which broke us away from Britain to start with. Our current cultural civil > war is being fueled by the popular press. Freedom of the press means that > cannot be stopped. > > > > Regarding Big Brother, I was thinking about something on which you might > have insights. George Orwell was a British guy who wrote his most > important work in the late 40s. By that time, he would perhaps recognize > that the biggest audience was in the states. The USA is really tuned into > the notion of growing government power and influence, which is why the > constitution is written the way it is. 70 years later, Orwell novels are > literature classics, being studied in American high schools to this day > (thank you, may your memory live forever St. George.) > > > > BillK, or anyone else, do you suppose Orwell himself realized he was > writing novels specifically to appeal to Americans? If so, it worked. > > > > spike > > > ------------------------------------ > > > This article isn't about adverts or propaganda, which have been around > since printing was invented. :) > This 'nudging' is intended not to be noticed as ads or propaganda. It > is to brainwash people into thinking that it is showing the way that > everyone normally behaves and if you want to be popular and accepted > into society, then you should behave like that also. > If you notice that it is propaganda, then it has failed. > > Orwell never visited the USA, but his later writing definitely had the > US in mind. > See: > (The internet makes everybody an expert!) ;) > > Quote: > In the last, and perhaps the most delightful, of these selections, > Orwell reminds us of how post-Civil War monopoly capitalism tarnished > the old, untrammeled, egalitarian America of the 1840s. But the > article is no polemic; it is, rather, an evocation of the America of > George Orwell?s fondest imaginings?the free and buoyant land that is > more symbol than geographic or political fact but is none the less > real for that. > ?Richard F. Snow > ------------------------------ > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Nov 9 16:37:56 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 08:37:56 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Big Media is turning into Big Brother In-Reply-To: References: <001101d7d579$83cf02a0$8b6d07e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001201d7d588$26d01a80$74704f80$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat >...If you notice that it is propaganda, then it has failed... Do let me assure you sir, we noticed. Our own mainstream news media spew propaganda continuously. >...Quote: >...In the last, and perhaps the most delightful, of these selections, Orwell reminds us of how post-Civil War monopoly capitalism tarnished the old, untrammeled, egalitarian America of the 1840s. But the article is no polemic; it is, rather, an evocation of the America of George Orwell?s fondest imaginings?the free and buoyant land that is more symbol than geographic or political fact but is none the less real for that. ?Richard F. Snow ------------------------------ >...BillK ____________________________________________ Ja, the US civil war has been interpreted a number of ways. The northern US states in those days were deep into the industrial revolution. Capitalism ruled with a vengeance. He who has the most money is the boss. The agrarian south still had the social constructs of nobility: a few families owned most of the farmable land, which was the primary source of production in those states not yet heavily industrialized. In that sense, the notion of slavery and states' rights created kind of proxy war which was really capitalism vs socialism. Capitalists won that struggle. spike From pharos at gmail.com Tue Nov 9 20:26:25 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 20:26:25 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Big Media is turning into Big Brother In-Reply-To: <001201d7d588$26d01a80$74704f80$@rainier66.com> References: <001101d7d579$83cf02a0$8b6d07e0$@rainier66.com> <001201d7d588$26d01a80$74704f80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Nov 2021 at 16:40, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat > >...If you notice that it is propaganda, then it has failed... > > Do let me assure you sir, we noticed. Our own mainstream news media spew propaganda continuously. > > >...Quote: > >...In the last, and perhaps the most delightful, of these selections, Orwell reminds us of how post-Civil War monopoly capitalism tarnished the old, untrammeled, egalitarian America of the 1840s. But the article is no polemic; it is, rather, an evocation of the America of George Orwell?s fondest imaginings?the free and buoyant land that is more symbol than geographic or political fact but is none the less real for that. > ?Richard F. Snow > ------------------------------ > > >...BillK > ____________________________________________ > > > Ja, the US civil war has been interpreted a number of ways. The northern US states in those days were deep into the industrial revolution. Capitalism ruled with a vengeance. He who has the most money is the boss. > > The agrarian south still had the social constructs of nobility: a few families owned most of the farmable land, which was the primary source of production in those states not yet heavily industrialized. > > In that sense, the notion of slavery and states' rights created kind of proxy war which was really capitalism vs socialism. Capitalists won that struggle. > > spike > _______________________________________________ Orwell was a Socialist who believed in justice and liberty. 1984 was written about the horrors of a totalitarian state. Interesting that the US corporate capitalists are now eagerly using those same totalitarian techniques. BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Nov 9 23:48:53 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 17:48:53 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Big Media is turning into Big Brother In-Reply-To: References: <001101d7d579$83cf02a0$8b6d07e0$@rainier66.com> <001201d7d588$26d01a80$74704f80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Outside of some form of torture, I don't know what 'totalitarian techniques' are. Please explain. There are many forms of persuasion and all of them can be used to persuade people, though there are none which do so without the conscious participation of the individual. I am suggesting that techniques are just tools which can be used for good or evil. It may be that some media companies view changing attitudes 'social engineering' as a good thing. Perhaps even a duty. bill w bill w On Tue, Nov 9, 2021 at 2:29 PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, 9 Nov 2021 at 16:40, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat > > >...If you notice that it is propaganda, then it has failed... > > > > Do let me assure you sir, we noticed. Our own mainstream news media > spew propaganda continuously. > > > > >...Quote: > > >...In the last, and perhaps the most delightful, of these selections, > Orwell reminds us of how post-Civil War monopoly capitalism tarnished the > old, untrammeled, egalitarian America of the 1840s. But the article is no > polemic; it is, rather, an evocation of the America of George Orwell?s > fondest imaginings?the free and buoyant land that is more symbol than > geographic or political fact but is none the less real for that. > > ?Richard F. Snow > > ------------------------------ > > > > >...BillK > > ____________________________________________ > > > > > > Ja, the US civil war has been interpreted a number of ways. The > northern US states in those days were deep into the industrial revolution. > Capitalism ruled with a vengeance. He who has the most money is the boss. > > > > The agrarian south still had the social constructs of nobility: a few > families owned most of the farmable land, which was the primary source of > production in those states not yet heavily industrialized. > > > > In that sense, the notion of slavery and states' rights created kind of > proxy war which was really capitalism vs socialism. Capitalists won that > struggle. > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > > > Orwell was a Socialist who believed in justice and liberty. > 1984 was written about the horrors of a totalitarian state. > Interesting that the US corporate capitalists are now eagerly > using those same totalitarian techniques. > > > > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Nov 10 13:50:18 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:50:18 -0600 Subject: [ExI] totalitarian techniques Message-ID: For those of you who watch TV, unlike Spike, you could not have missed a profusion of the following: Black men with white women; white men with black women; other mixed nationality pairs; an assortment of nationalities in group shots; two black men kissing. Does anyone think that these are random? Coincidental? Do you think that they are supposed to get us used to these pairings and groupings? Nudge nudge nudge. Clearly these are attempts to persuade people to be more tolerant and accepting. Anyone find any evil motives here? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Nov 10 14:04:06 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 06:04:06 -0800 Subject: [ExI] totalitarian techniques In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007101d7d63b$d3b862d0$7b292870$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] totalitarian techniques >?For those of you who watch TV, unlike Spike, you could not have missed a profusion of the following: ? >?Clearly these are attempts to persuade people to be more tolerant and accepting. Anyone find any evil motives here? bill w Not at all Billw. It isn?t good/evil at all. Its only profit/not. The advertising people have study groups. I was once in one of them. They study how test audiences react to an ad, have them rate whether they would be more likely or less likely to buy the product. The more selly ads get selected down, the selliest ads are the ones we see. No evil intent. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Nov 10 14:12:08 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 08:12:08 -0600 Subject: [ExI] totalitarian techniques In-Reply-To: <007101d7d63b$d3b862d0$7b292870$@rainier66.com> References: <007101d7d63b$d3b862d0$7b292870$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Depends on the viewer, doesn't it, Spike? Many Southern men will find evil afoot in those ads I mentioned. Too many black people and they tune out. Like the NFL - according to my barber many men have given up on that game because of blacks. Maybe they would not call it evil, but disgusting, wrong, etc - yes. A few likely would call it evil and cite the Bible. (you could probably find a verse or two they could quote). bill w On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 8:06 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* [ExI] totalitarian techniques > > > > >?For those of you who watch TV, unlike Spike, you could not have missed > a profusion of the following: > > ? > > >?Clearly these are attempts to persuade people to be more tolerant and > accepting. Anyone find any evil motives here? bill w > > > > Not at all Billw. It isn?t good/evil at all. Its only profit/not. The > advertising people have study groups. I was once in one of them. They > study how test audiences react to an ad, have them rate whether they would > be more likely or less likely to buy the product. The more selly ads get > selected down, the selliest ads are the ones we see. No evil intent. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Nov 10 14:48:58 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 06:48:58 -0800 Subject: [ExI] totalitarian techniques In-Reply-To: References: <007101d7d63b$d3b862d0$7b292870$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <009801d7d642$186707f0$493517d0$@rainier66.com> ?.> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] totalitarian techniques >?Depends on the viewer, doesn't it, Spike? Well, sure, the numbers of viewers. It only works if you have a big enough sample. >? Many Southern men will find evil afoot in those ads I mentioned? bill w Sure, but advertisers will give away some segments of the population to draw in other, larger groups. It is like how politics runs today. It?s all about the numbers, nothing to do with good and evil. That aspect is irrelevant if there is no profit in it. Follow the money Billw me lad. It really is that simple, and always has been that simple. Just follow the money. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Nov 10 15:35:55 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 09:35:55 -0600 Subject: [ExI] totalitarian techniques In-Reply-To: <009801d7d642$186707f0$493517d0$@rainier66.com> References: <007101d7d63b$d3b862d0$7b292870$@rainier66.com> <009801d7d642$186707f0$493517d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Follow the money - learned that lesson decades ago (I was referring to the politics of the viewer - not number - TV etc. can easily program different things for different parts of the country. Just like goetta- would never have learned about that in the South - niece from Ohio brought me some - tasty!) "The love of money is the root of all evil." Not really 'all', but much. bill w On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 9:00 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?.*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] totalitarian techniques > > > > >?Depends on the viewer, doesn't it, Spike? > > > > Well, sure, the numbers of viewers. It only works if you have a big > enough sample. > > > > >? Many Southern men will find evil afoot in those ads I mentioned? bill > w > > > > Sure, but advertisers will give away some segments of the population to > draw in other, larger groups. It is like how politics runs today. It?s > all about the numbers, nothing to do with good and evil. That aspect is > irrelevant if there is no profit in it. > > > > Follow the money Billw me lad. It really is that simple, and always has > been that simple. Just follow the money. > > > > spike > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Nov 10 15:58:18 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:58:18 -0800 Subject: [ExI] totalitarian techniques In-Reply-To: References: <007101d7d63b$d3b862d0$7b292870$@rainier66.com> <009801d7d642$186707f0$493517d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00d301d7d64b$c7b0c120$57124360$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >?"The love of money is the root of all evil." Not really 'all', but much. bill w Billw, the real truth is related. The love of money is in all of us. It is in the good and the evil among us, and in even the ambiguously good/evil such as Mr. Bates from Downton Abbey. The love of money axis is orthogonal to the good/evil axis. I can easily see the entire good/evil axis end to end from my vantage point, for I am way out here on the love of money axis. We have always gotten along well, money and me, always liked each other, since childhood, and it grew into a most sincere and enduring love. I have never even quarreled with my money. The real truth is this sir: It isn?t love of money that is down there at the bottom of the evil tree. The lack of money is the root of all evil. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Nov 10 18:01:22 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 12:01:22 -0600 Subject: [ExI] totalitarian techniques In-Reply-To: <00d301d7d64b$c7b0c120$57124360$@rainier66.com> References: <007101d7d63b$d3b862d0$7b292870$@rainier66.com> <009801d7d642$186707f0$493517d0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d7d64b$c7b0c120$57124360$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, you keep making these grand statements which are not even arguably true. Lack of money did not stop all the tyrants in history (I will grant you that some of them 'perceived' a lack of money). I do think that a guaranteed income would get rid of a lot of problems, for sure. "If I give you some money would you stop robbing me?" I think that's a fair trade. What would be even better is that if the lower classes banded ('banded together' is redundant) and formed a political party. Put enough of them together and they will have plenty of money, and will get donations from progressives etc. bill w On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 10:00 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > > > > >?"The love of money is the root of all evil." Not really 'all', but > much. bill w > > > > > > > > Billw, the real truth is related. The love of money is in all of us. It > is in the good and the evil among us, and in even the ambiguously good/evil > such as Mr. Bates from Downton Abbey. > > > > The love of money axis is orthogonal to the good/evil axis. I can easily > see the entire good/evil axis end to end from my vantage point, for I am > way out here on the love of money axis. We have always gotten along well, > money and me, always liked each other, since childhood, and it grew into a > most sincere and enduring love. I have never even quarreled with my > money. > > > > The real truth is this sir: It isn?t love of money that is down there at > the bottom of the evil tree. The lack of money is the root of all evil. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Nov 10 18:20:58 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 10:20:58 -0800 Subject: [ExI] totalitarian techniques In-Reply-To: References: <007101d7d63b$d3b862d0$7b292870$@rainier66.com> <009801d7d642$186707f0$493517d0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d7d64b$c7b0c120$57124360$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <015601d7d65f$b63d5930$22b80b90$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] totalitarian techniques >?Spike, you keep making these grand statements which are not even arguably true. Lack of money did not stop all the tyrants in history (I will grant you that some of them 'perceived' a lack of money). ? bill w Ah, the tyrants prove my contention. Money is power. Power is money. Two different forms of the same thing, like matter and energy. Tyrants wanted more money thru more power. Most of government today is all about getting more power thru more money. Billw, it?s all very simple. It?s all power and money, programmed into our brains by societal evolution, explained nicely by the discipline of evolutionary psychology. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Nov 10 18:26:52 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 12:26:52 -0600 Subject: [ExI] totalitarian techniques In-Reply-To: <015601d7d65f$b63d5930$22b80b90$@rainier66.com> References: <007101d7d63b$d3b862d0$7b292870$@rainier66.com> <009801d7d642$186707f0$493517d0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d7d64b$c7b0c120$57124360$@rainier66.com> <015601d7d65f$b63d5930$22b80b90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: And some just love blood and guts and stomping on the faces of their enemies- money is a side issue. Notice how tyrants let their soldiers pillage. If I were a tyrant I'd want everything put on tables where I could select what I want! bill w On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 12:22 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] totalitarian techniques > > > > >?Spike, you keep making these grand statements which are not even > arguably true. Lack of money did not stop all the tyrants in history (I > will grant you that some of them 'perceived' a lack of money). ? bill w > > > > Ah, the tyrants prove my contention. Money is power. Power is money. > Two different forms of the same thing, like matter and energy. Tyrants > wanted more money thru more power. Most of government today is all about > getting more power thru more money. > > > > Billw, it?s all very simple. It?s all power and money, programmed into > our brains by societal evolution, explained nicely by the discipline of > evolutionary psychology. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Nov 10 18:47:58 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 10:47:58 -0800 Subject: [ExI] totalitarian techniques In-Reply-To: References: <007101d7d63b$d3b862d0$7b292870$@rainier66.com> <009801d7d642$186707f0$493517d0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d7d64b$c7b0c120$57124360$@rainier66.com> <015601d7d65f$b63d5930$22b80b90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001601d7d663$7b58c300$720a4900$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] totalitarian techniques And some just love blood and guts and stomping on the faces of their enemies- money is a side issue. Notice how tyrants let their soldiers pillage. If I were a tyrant I'd want everything put on tables where I could select what I want! bill w That was part of the deal really. The pillaging soldiers managed to keep the commander very well enriched with the spoils. He would let them do what they would, if they made sure to cut him in on the deal. Much of the reason communism fails is because it keeps reaching for an instinct or intuition that humans generally don?t have, or if so, in very limited amounts. Sooner or later, lust for power and money overcomes every such attempt. Capitalism cheerfully recognizes how humans are: we lust for money and power. It can be power over other people or over our environment, but it is the drive which made humans such a successful species. There is no point in working against it. So work with it. Acknowledge the way it is. Use a legal system to limit any individual?s power. Use capitalism to bring up everyone?s wealth. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Nov 10 20:29:06 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 14:29:06 -0600 Subject: [ExI] totalitarian techniques In-Reply-To: <001601d7d663$7b58c300$720a4900$@rainier66.com> References: <007101d7d63b$d3b862d0$7b292870$@rainier66.com> <009801d7d642$186707f0$493517d0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d7d64b$c7b0c120$57124360$@rainier66.com> <015601d7d65f$b63d5930$22b80b90$@rainier66.com> <001601d7d663$7b58c300$720a4900$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Maybe you should read Adler, of Freud, Jung and Adler. His main motive was power. I shall never relinquish this point: if you only see one motive for something, you are not looking deeply enough. Remember that the id may be getting many kinds of jollies through one activity. Power not only brings money, it brings finger up to those who said you were worthless, maybe even their mothers. Some people describe power as a sexual thing, better than orgasms. What kind of power? Over whom? For what purposes? Complex. In psychology, not even Pavlov's dog is simple. bill w On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 12:49 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] totalitarian techniques > > > > And some just love blood and guts and stomping on the faces of their > enemies- money is a side issue. Notice how tyrants let their soldiers > pillage. If I were a tyrant I'd want everything put on tables where I > could select what I want! > > > > bill w > > > > > > That was part of the deal really. The pillaging soldiers managed to keep > the commander very well enriched with the spoils. He would let them do > what they would, if they made sure to cut him in on the deal. > > > > Much of the reason communism fails is because it keeps reaching for an > instinct or intuition that humans generally don?t have, or if so, in very > limited amounts. Sooner or later, lust for power and money overcomes every > such attempt. > > > > Capitalism cheerfully recognizes how humans are: we lust for money and > power. It can be power over other people or over our environment, but it > is the drive which made humans such a successful species. There is no > point in working against it. So work with it. Acknowledge the way it is. > Use a legal system to limit any individual?s power. Use capitalism to > bring up everyone?s wealth. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Nov 10 21:43:47 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 15:43:47 -0600 Subject: [ExI] the great credulous Message-ID: Or, the great American people? Being towards the right end of the IQ curve as we are, we tend to exaggerate the influence the media have over the thoughts of the consumers. We are no fools, but there are fools around for sure. And we may not be impervious to change as we think. But what percentage of the population are fools? And are they fools all the time? I suggest not. It is difficult to change attitudes and beliefs that have been held for years. Ever notice just how much persuasion is aimed at convincing people that they need to buy or think about this new thing? Newness gets attention. Few people want to be Luddites in things they buy or believe. And isn't everyone else doing it? Car companies put out new versions every year, at great cost of retooling. Is that justified by significant improvement? I doubt that. iPhone ditto, and many other things. Yet it must succeed or they are afraid to stop the yearly renewal. And new isn't better, in my case: Sony Bravia OLED etc., bought 2019, died and cannot be fixed. TV repairman said that nobody puts out good TVs anymore. Maybe make me think again about extended warranties. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Nov 10 21:46:13 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 15:46:13 -0600 Subject: [ExI] football, the perfect game Message-ID: Young men are willing and able to run around on a field, hit, get hit, try to advance a ball, succeed, fail, create massive numbers of rules which have to be interpreted by people other than the players, challenge their decision, which then have to be made by other referees, hurt, get hurt, attract tens of millions of fans, which if you are highly successful can pay you tens of millions of dollars a year and get regarded as a cultural hero for generations. What could be so wrong about that? In one theory they are our gladiators. Or like the Roman said, our circuses (and what happened to them?) bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Nov 10 22:11:20 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 14:11:20 -0800 Subject: [ExI] football, the perfect game In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005501d7d67f$e4bea910$ae3bfb30$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] football, the perfect game >?Young men are willing and able to run around on a field, hit, get hit, try to advance a ball, succeed, fail, create massive numbers of rules ?What could be so wrong about that? In one theory they are our gladiators. Or like the Roman said, our circuses (and what happened to them?) bill w It?s our symbolic warfare. We have evolved to compete. Back in the old days, it was survival: go attack the tribe on the other side of that hill, otherwise they will attack you. Terrain acquisition warfare is so ingrained in our DNA that when it came to an end about at the start of the 20th century with the advent of machine guns, we really didn?t quite know what to do without it. Terrain acquisition became an instinct without a behavior to go with it. So? the rise in popularity of the symbolic version in rugby, soccer, football, etc. In the case of American football, you even get the occasional injury to enhance the experience. Since football is a rough sport, only the young and athletic can play it, so most of us are left to experiencing it vicariously, cheering for the home team, betting on the outcomes, that sorta thing. Now we figured out how to spare ourselves a lotta expense and make software simulations of our simulated battles, with fantasy football. No need to buy 100 dollar tickets to watch galoots tackle each other, when we can get a 30 dollar software package which really works the same way, and gives the user extra control, for she makes herself the head coach. If realism is your thing, you can get simulated battle games in the form of first-person shooter or make yourself the commander of the American fleet at Midway, 1942. Take on the Japanese carriers. We are developing more and more ways to harmlessly (?) satisfy the mysterious inner urges, the instincts previously missing a corresponding behavior, through our software creations. I put the (?) after harmlessly, for the result we see are more and more of the young realizing they have an ever more attractive option in our modern world. More young people have the option to never enter the adult world, but rather lie low, embrace poverty, spend their time in their parent-supplied rooms or very cheap apartments, live on charity, play video games endlessly, eschew the working world entirely. Previously that option required alcohol or drugs generally, which cost money, but now it really doesn?t. Anyone can generally be a useless low-end consumer without chemical enhancement. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Nov 10 22:20:24 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 14:20:24 -0800 Subject: [ExI] football, the perfect game In-Reply-To: <005501d7d67f$e4bea910$ae3bfb30$@rainier66.com> References: <005501d7d67f$e4bea910$ae3bfb30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 2:14 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Since football is a rough sport, only the young and athletic can play it, > so most of us are left to experiencing it vicariously, cheering for the > home team, betting on the outcomes, that sorta thing. > I look forward to the rise of remote controlled robots used for sports. Alternatively, really good medical technology to enable things like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAzY28C8Syc . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Nov 11 00:10:31 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 18:10:31 -0600 Subject: [ExI] football, the perfect game In-Reply-To: References: <005501d7d67f$e4bea910$ae3bfb30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I am surprised that demolition derby hasn't progressed to remotely controlled cars. That seems a no-brainer to me. Spike, here's your opportunity to make a butt load of money. bill w On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 4:22 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 2:14 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Since football is a rough sport, only the young and athletic can play it, >> so most of us are left to experiencing it vicariously, cheering for the >> home team, betting on the outcomes, that sorta thing. >> > > I look forward to the rise of remote controlled robots used for sports. > > Alternatively, really good medical technology to enable things like > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAzY28C8Syc . > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Nov 11 11:57:08 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 11:57:08 +0000 Subject: [ExI] The Metaverse Is Big Brother in Disguise Message-ID: The Metaverse Is Big Brother in Disguise: Freedom Meted Out by Technological Tyrants John Whitehead Published Nov 9, 2021 (Long Article) Quotes: ?The term metaverse, like the term meritocracy, was coined in a sci fi dystopia novel written as cautionary tale. Then techies took metaverse, and technocrats took meritocracy, and enthusiastically adopted what was meant to inspire horror.??Antonio Garc?a Mart?nez Welcome to the Matrix (i.e. the metaverse), where reality is virtual, freedom is only as free as one?s technological overlords allow, and artificial intelligence is slowly rendering humanity unnecessary, inferior and obsolete. Consider that in our present virtue-signaling world where fascism disguises itself as tolerance, the only way to enjoy even a semblance of freedom is by opting to voluntarily censor yourself, comply, conform and march in lockstep with whatever prevailing views dominate. Fail to do so?by daring to espouse ?dangerous? ideas or support unpopular political movements?and you will find yourself shut out of commerce, employment, and society: Facebook will ban you, Twitter will shut you down, Instagram will de-platform you, and your employer will issue ultimatums that force you to choose between your so-called freedoms and economic survival. This is exactly how Corporate America plans to groom us for a world in which ?we the people? are unthinking, unresistant, slavishly obedient automatons in bondage to a Deep State policed by computer algorithms. Science fiction has become fact. Look around you. Everywhere you turn, people are so addicted to their internet-connected screen devices?smart phones, tablets, computers, televisions?that they can go for hours at a time submerged in a virtual world where human interaction is filtered through the medium of technology. This is not freedom. ----------------- This long polemic covers a lot of ground. Some of it seems to me to be rather exaggerated. Then I rethink, 'Maybe it is just a few years early'. It is the direction of these developments that is significant. The worry is that the more extreme fears might become our new reality. BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Nov 11 14:10:05 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 08:10:05 -0600 Subject: [ExI] The Metaverse Is Big Brother in Disguise In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There is nothing wrong with this, per se. You can find things like it every day of every year in recorded history. It's a scaled-down version of the end is near. What is lacking is what to do about it. bill w On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 6:00 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The Metaverse Is Big Brother in Disguise: Freedom Meted Out by > Technological Tyrants > John Whitehead Published Nov 9, 2021 > > (Long Article) > < > https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/metaverse-big-brother-disguise-freedom-meted-out-john-whitehead > > > > Quotes: > ?The term metaverse, like the term meritocracy, was coined in a sci fi > dystopia novel written as cautionary tale. Then techies took > metaverse, and technocrats took meritocracy, and enthusiastically > adopted what was meant to inspire horror.??Antonio Garc?a Mart?nez > > Welcome to the Matrix (i.e. the metaverse), where reality is virtual, > freedom is only as free as one?s technological overlords allow, and > artificial intelligence is slowly rendering humanity unnecessary, > inferior and obsolete. > > Consider that in our present virtue-signaling world where fascism > disguises itself as tolerance, the only way to enjoy even a semblance > of freedom is by opting to voluntarily censor yourself, comply, > conform and march in lockstep with whatever prevailing views dominate. > > Fail to do so?by daring to espouse ?dangerous? ideas or support > unpopular political movements?and you will find yourself shut out of > commerce, employment, and society: Facebook will ban you, Twitter will > shut you down, Instagram will de-platform you, and your employer will > issue ultimatums that force you to choose between your so-called > freedoms and economic survival. > > This is exactly how Corporate America plans to groom us for a world in > which ?we the people? are unthinking, unresistant, slavishly obedient > automatons in bondage to a Deep State policed by computer algorithms. > > Science fiction has become fact. > > Look around you. Everywhere you turn, people are so addicted to their > internet-connected screen devices?smart phones, tablets, computers, > televisions?that they can go for hours at a time submerged in a > virtual world where human interaction is filtered through the medium > of technology. > > This is not freedom. > ----------------- > > > This long polemic covers a lot of ground. Some of it seems to me to be > rather exaggerated. Then I rethink, 'Maybe it is just a few years > early'. It is the direction of these developments that is significant. > The worry is that the more extreme fears might become our new reality. > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Nov 11 16:29:43 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 08:29:43 -0800 Subject: [ExI] The Metaverse Is Big Brother in Disguise In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 3:59 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Fail to do so?by daring to espouse ?dangerous? ideas or support > unpopular political movements?and you will find yourself shut out of > commerce, employment, and society: Facebook will ban you, Twitter will > shut you down, Instagram will de-platform you, and your employer will > issue ultimatums that force you to choose between your so-called > freedoms and economic survival. > The cases I am aware of where this happened went rather beyond mere "unpopular political movements". For instance, claiming that all or most Mexican immigrants to the US are murderers and/or rapists is factually incorrect. Claiming, without context, that the anti-coronavirus vaccines are more dangerous than coronavirus is likewise incorrect, and generally has the effect of causing people to get sicker (by encouraging people not to take the vaccine) to a high enough degree to cause significant problems for the rest of us. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Nov 11 16:37:26 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 10:37:26 -0600 Subject: [ExI] The Metaverse Is Big Brother in Disguise In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We have two pandemics: Covid and fear. In addition, I suspect that many opposers are just acting out their libertarian beliefs and don't care about any other aspects of it. bill w On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 10:32 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 3:59 AM BillK via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Fail to do so?by daring to espouse ?dangerous? ideas or support >> unpopular political movements?and you will find yourself shut out of >> commerce, employment, and society: Facebook will ban you, Twitter will >> shut you down, Instagram will de-platform you, and your employer will >> issue ultimatums that force you to choose between your so-called >> freedoms and economic survival. >> > > The cases I am aware of where this happened went rather beyond mere > "unpopular political movements". For instance, claiming that all or most > Mexican immigrants to the US are murderers and/or rapists is factually > incorrect. Claiming, without context, that the anti-coronavirus vaccines > are more dangerous than coronavirus is likewise incorrect, and generally > has the effect of causing people to get sicker (by encouraging people not > to take the vaccine) to a high enough degree to cause significant problems > for the rest of us. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Nov 11 18:08:49 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 18:08:49 +0000 Subject: [ExI] The Metaverse Is Big Brother in Disguise In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Nov 2021 at 16:33, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > The cases I am aware of where this happened went rather beyond mere "unpopular political movements". For instance, claiming that all or most Mexican immigrants to the US are murderers and/or rapists is factually incorrect. Claiming, without context, that the anti-coronavirus vaccines are more dangerous than coronavirus is likewise incorrect, and generally has the effect of causing people to get sicker (by encouraging people not to take the vaccine) to a high enough degree to cause significant problems for the rest of us. > _______________________________________________ Arguing about specific cases is missing the point. There will always be contrary opinions. The millions of supporters of the previous president probably object to him being banned from Facebook and Twitter. The point is whether the Metaverse should be a public service or a state-controlled service (like in China) where people with bad social credit can be made into non-persons. (It makes no practical difference whether the Metaverse is controlled by a company that just happens to do what politicians or powerful people want them to do). If people are transferring more and more of their life into the Metaverse then legislation must change to ensure that there is legal protection for minority opinions. 'Banning' of lives from the Metaverse must involve laws being broken, trials and sentencing. Not just 'Somebody doesn't like what they're saying'. A totalitarian political system would of course ensure that the laws, trials, and sentencing were in line with government policy. BillK From gadersd at gmail.com Thu Nov 11 18:37:27 2021 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Hermes Trismegistus) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 13:37:27 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Pollen Count Data Message-ID: <986A0F00-C302-4FFC-8046-175335A65BB7@hxcore.ol> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Nov 11 19:16:09 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 19:16:09 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Pollen Count Data In-Reply-To: <986A0F00-C302-4FFC-8046-175335A65BB7@hxcore.ol> References: <986A0F00-C302-4FFC-8046-175335A65BB7@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Nov 2021 at 18:40, Hermes Trismegistus via extropy-chat wrote: > > Does anyone here know where I can download free pollen count data for every city on Earth? I want to do a statistical analysis to determine my next home. I want to live somewhere with minimal pollen but more livable than a place such as Siberia. That pollen count is my primary factor for deciding where to move should indicate the severity of my allergy condition. > _______________________________________________ This article might help - See links in the article. Best bet may be to decide which country you would like to live in then do some searches, like - USA city allergies BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Nov 11 19:17:46 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 13:17:46 -0600 Subject: [ExI] The Metaverse Is Big Brother in Disguise In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I see utterly no reason why government in any form has any business sticking its hands into private business. Insuring minority opinion is not the job of government. If people don't like it they can go elsewhere or create their own company, and I assure you that if such a need arises, competition will occur. Good heavens, don't we have enough bureaucracy now without what you are suggesting? In a way this is a moral issue of fairness. It has no place in the world of business except in obvious cases of racism and so on. Facebook has the right, it seems to me, to do anything it wants to - and it should have that right. People do NOT have the right to be heard. People in free countries do not have to be protected from propaganda. That is the function of the news media, who will criticize Facebook, our President or whoever they want to. It's a free press. bill w On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 12:11 PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, 11 Nov 2021 at 16:33, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > The cases I am aware of where this happened went rather beyond mere > "unpopular political movements". For instance, claiming that all or most > Mexican immigrants to the US are murderers and/or rapists is factually > incorrect. Claiming, without context, that the anti-coronavirus vaccines > are more dangerous than coronavirus is likewise incorrect, and generally > has the effect of causing people to get sicker (by encouraging people not > to take the vaccine) to a high enough degree to cause significant problems > for the rest of us. > > _______________________________________________ > > > Arguing about specific cases is missing the point. > There will always be contrary opinions. > The millions of supporters of the previous president probably object > to him being banned from Facebook and Twitter. > The point is whether the Metaverse should be a public service or a > state-controlled service (like in China) where people with bad social > credit can be made into non-persons. > (It makes no practical difference whether the Metaverse is controlled > by a company that just happens to do what politicians or powerful > people want them to do). > > If people are transferring more and more of their life into the > Metaverse then legislation must change to ensure that there is legal > protection for minority opinions. 'Banning' of lives from the Metaverse > must involve laws being broken, trials and sentencing. > Not just 'Somebody doesn't like what they're saying'. > A totalitarian political system would of course ensure that the laws, > trials, and sentencing were in line with government policy. > > > > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Nov 11 19:59:43 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 13:59:43 -0600 Subject: [ExI] applicability Message-ID: You have no doubt heard of the philosophers of the story about a saying that would be appropriate no matter what the circumstances. And the answer was 'This too will pass'. I have a suggestion for a more limited application: groups. Any group might quality: "Think of all that bullshit, the nonsense and non-sequiturs, the self-aggrandisement and the self-deception, the boring stupid nonsense, the pathetic attempts to impress or ingratiate, the dull-wittedness, the incomprehension and the incomprehensible, the gland-addled meanderings and general suffocating dullness." I think that is a masterpiece and no, I didn't write it: Iain Banks bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Nov 11 20:23:17 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 12:23:17 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Pollen Count Data In-Reply-To: <986A0F00-C302-4FFC-8046-175335A65BB7@hxcore.ol> References: <986A0F00-C302-4FFC-8046-175335A65BB7@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: https://www.pollen.com/map might be a starting point, though it is continental US only. https://www.aafa.org/allergy-capitals/ with the same caveat. The relative ease of getting this data for the US as opposed to literally anywhere else on Earth, and the likely correlated ease of accessing allergy-mitigation measures inside the US versus outside the US, might inform your decision if your allergies are that severe. On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 10:39 AM Hermes Trismegistus via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Does anyone here know where I can download free pollen count data for > every city on Earth? I want to do a statistical analysis to determine my > next home. I want to live somewhere with minimal pollen but more livable > than a place such as Siberia. That pollen count is my primary factor for > deciding where to move should indicate the severity of my allergy condition. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Nov 11 20:25:27 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 12:25:27 -0800 Subject: [ExI] The Metaverse Is Big Brother in Disguise In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 10:11 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Arguing about specific cases is missing the point. > No, it is pointing out that what actually happens is not nearly as extreme as claimed, and thus does not need a response as severe as proposed. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Nov 11 21:11:41 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 15:11:41 -0600 Subject: [ExI] The Metaverse Is Big Brother in Disguise In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Addition to my post about the news media being in charge of distinguishing propaganda from fact. It is the obligation of every citizen as well. bill w On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 2:31 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 10:11 AM BillK via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Arguing about specific cases is missing the point. >> > > No, it is pointing out that what actually happens is not nearly as extreme > as claimed, and thus does not need a response as severe as proposed. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Nov 11 21:40:11 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 13:40:11 -0800 Subject: [ExI] The Metaverse Is Big Brother in Disguise In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001f01d7d744$b61e8380$225b8a80$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] The Metaverse Is Big Brother in Disguise >?Addition to my post about the news media being in charge of distinguishing propaganda from fact. >?It is the obligation of every citizen as well. >?bill w No worries Billw. If we ever trusted news media for distinguishing propaganda from fact, we sure don?t now. Anyone who has been paying a bit of attention realize that the mainstream media is and has been making its living peddling propaganda. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Nov 11 23:37:21 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 17:37:21 -0600 Subject: [ExI] The Metaverse Is Big Brother in Disguise In-Reply-To: <001f01d7d744$b61e8380$225b8a80$@rainier66.com> References: <001f01d7d744$b61e8380$225b8a80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Online you can find ratings/reviews of just about anything you could want. Maybe there should be a ratings service of the media - probably already is, but I am out of the loop. 'Quis custodiet ipsos custodes' So our problem is that we can trust nobody. We just choose our media flag and salute it and believe it. This is very bad news, so to speak, for those of us who think that things on TV are automatically true because 'somebody' would not let them put it on the air if it were false. These people must be very confused nowadays. Or just 'Dum vivimus, vivamus' - while we live, let us LIVE' bill On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 3:42 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] The Metaverse Is Big Brother in Disguise > > > > >?Addition to my post about the news media being in charge of > distinguishing propaganda from fact. > > > > >?It is the obligation of every citizen as well. > > > > >?bill w > > > > > > No worries Billw. If we ever trusted news media for distinguishing > propaganda from fact, we sure don?t now. Anyone who has been paying a bit > of attention realize that the mainstream media is and has been making its > living peddling propaganda. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Nov 12 02:22:04 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 18:22:04 -0800 Subject: [ExI] mr. medes car fire Message-ID: <002a01d7d76c$15984720$40c8d560$@rainier66.com> Hey cool, fun idea: you may have heard of the urban legend which has been around longer than actual urban areas. Some fellers were being invaded by sea, so they all got mirrors and focused sunlight on the invaders and set them on fire. An old timer named Archie wrote about it. Archie Medes I think his name was. The problem with that is that convection carries away the heat too fast. I think old Medes was telling us a tall tale. But what if. we got a bunch of mirrors and focused sunlight on a car? We know that if you leave a candle inside a closed car in the desert in July, it will turn into a waxy mess, so we know it is getting above 60-some C. We know that we don't have that dang far to go to get into the 90s, which is about the auto-ignition range of carbon disulfide. Any guesses about whether we can set an old car on fire if we put some carbon disulfide in the back seat and shine a bunch of mirrors on it on a really hot day in a place like the Panamint Valley? I think we might be able to. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Nov 12 04:34:51 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 20:34:51 -0800 Subject: [ExI] mr. medes car fire In-Reply-To: <002a01d7d76c$15984720$40c8d560$@rainier66.com> References: <002a01d7d76c$15984720$40c8d560$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005301d7d77e$a2546510$e6fd2f30$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Subject: mr. medes car fire >.Hey cool, fun idea. we can set an old car on fire if we put some carbon disulfide in the back seat and shine a bunch of mirrors on it on a really hot day in a place like the Panamint Valley? I think we might be able to. Spike Eh, better idea, more of a challenge: the carbon disulfide notion is a bit too. cheaty. You wouldn't ever have that stuff in your car in an open container (oy, nasty crud it is, few legitimate real-world uses, toxic, stinky, flammable, way too dangerous to just have for any purpose other than. well. let's not go into details on that please.) What if. instead of the carbon diS, we take medical oxygen bottles, something that a person with lung problems would have, get a coupla the big boys, 47 liters at 150 bar, replace the wimpy 1 liter/min with a welders regulator, set er to about 10 liters per minute per bottle, really get it super oxygeny in that car, buncha proles up in the bleachers with mirrors, shine em down, greenhouse effect, heh, we could play some Apollo 1 without actually killing anyone. Heh. Heeheheheheeeeeeeee. or perhaps: muWAH.haaahahahaaaa. Oh cool, close up all the vents tight, oxygen level gets way up there in a few minutes, uncover a coupla hundred mirrors, that might kaWHOMPH into flames. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Fri Nov 12 07:33:01 2021 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 08:33:01 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Terasem Colloquium, December 10, 10am (Zoom) Message-ID: Terasem Colloquium, December 10, 10am (Zoom). Speakers: Susan Schneider, Randal Koene, Max More, Ken Hayworth, Gabriel Rothblatt, Robert McIntyre. What is consciousness, and how to preserve it beyond physical death? You are invited! https://turingchurch.net/terasem-colloquium-december-10-2021-45c26ef1bd02 From ben at zaiboc.net Fri Nov 12 09:29:26 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 09:29:26 +0000 Subject: [ExI] totalitarian techniques In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7b57b8a0-f04c-d72c-e226-319659a8707a@zaiboc.net> On 10/11/2021 22:20, Spike wrote: > Use a legal system to limit any individual?s power.? Use capitalism to > bring up everyone?s wealth. The problem with this is that individuals who want power, form groups that dodge and even capture the legal limits on power (we usually call them 'governments', 'corporations', etc.). They then go on to acquire >90% of the available wealth, thus immense power, leaving everyone else powerless and poor. Our existing systems fail, all of them. They only benefit a small percentage of humans, and fail the rest. Mainly because their main aim is to perpetuate their own existence, with a side-order of accumulating even more money and power. We need new systems, explicitly designed to benefit the majority of people, not trample over them. If you doubt that our existing systems fail us, just consider how they are tackling climate change. Short answer: They aren't. We won't stop it, we'll have to adapt to it. Probably very poorly. And guess who will suffer the most? Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Nov 12 12:41:23 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 04:41:23 -0800 Subject: [ExI] totalitarian techniques In-Reply-To: <7b57b8a0-f04c-d72c-e226-319659a8707a@zaiboc.net> References: <7b57b8a0-f04c-d72c-e226-319659a8707a@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <000001d7d7c2$9a3152f0$ce93f8d0$@rainier66.com> .> On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] totalitarian techniques On 10/11/2021 22:20, Spike wrote: >>.Use a legal system to limit any individual's power. Use capitalism to bring up everyone's wealth. . >.If you doubt that our existing systems fail us, just consider how they are tackling climate change. Short answer: They aren't. We won't stop it, we'll have to adapt to it. Probably very poorly. And guess who will suffer the most Ben Ben, the problem is using the wrong tool for that job. We shouldn't be attempting to use a legal system to combat climate change. We should be using market forces to do that. So far, markets haven't chosen that as a high priority. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Nov 12 13:12:48 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 13:12:48 +0000 Subject: [ExI] totalitarian techniques In-Reply-To: <000001d7d7c2$9a3152f0$ce93f8d0$@rainier66.com> References: <7b57b8a0-f04c-d72c-e226-319659a8707a@zaiboc.net> <000001d7d7c2$9a3152f0$ce93f8d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Nov 2021 at 12:44, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > ?> On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] totalitarian techniques > > >?If you doubt that our existing systems fail us, just consider how they are tackling climate change. Short answer: They aren't. We won't stop it, we'll have to adapt to it. Probably very poorly. And guess who will suffer the most Ben > > > Ben, the problem is using the wrong tool for that job. We shouldn?t be attempting to use a legal system to combat climate change. We should be using market forces to do that. So far, markets haven?t chosen that as a high priority. > > spike > _______________________________________________ It's the Tragedy of the Commons writ large for the whole planet. No individual company concerned about the profit margin in a competitive environment is going to spend precious cash on fighting climate change. They will worry that companies that don't spend money like that will make larger profits and be more successful. Fighting climate change has to be tackled at government level to pass laws that apply to all companies. But it is not going to happen. The next generation will have to survive as best they can. On Fri, 12 Nov 2021 at 12:44, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] totalitarian techniques > > > > On 10/11/2021 22:20, Spike wrote: > > >>?Use a legal system to limit any individual?s power. Use capitalism to > bring up everyone?s wealth. > > > > ? > > >?If you doubt that our existing systems fail us, just consider how they > are tackling climate change. Short answer: They aren't. We won't stop it, > we'll have to adapt to it. Probably very poorly. And guess who will suffer > the most Ben > > > > > > Ben, the problem is using the wrong tool for that job. We shouldn?t be > attempting to use a legal system to combat climate change. We should be > using market forces to do that. So far, markets haven?t chosen that as a > high priority. > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: profitj.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 31079 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Nov 12 15:33:36 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 07:33:36 -0800 Subject: [ExI] totalitarian techniques In-Reply-To: References: <7b57b8a0-f04c-d72c-e226-319659a8707a@zaiboc.net> <000001d7d7c2$9a3152f0$ce93f8d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <009601d7d7da$a956f650$fc04e2f0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Sent: Friday, November 12, 2021 5:13 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: BillK Subject: Re: [ExI] totalitarian techniques On Fri, 12 Nov 2021 at 12:44, spike jones via extropy-chat >>? We should be using market forces to do that. So far, markets haven?t chosen that as a high priority. > > spike > _______________________________________________ >?Fighting climate change has to be tackled at government level to pass laws that apply to all companies. >?But it is not going to happen. The next generation will have to survive as best they can. Ja. The fact that companies cannot compete if they spend their capital fighting climate change scales up to any company of any size. It isn?t a big leap of intuition to recognize that if a company is the size of a nation, that same principle still applies, and if we want to view nations as competing companies (they are, in a sense) then nations cannot compete with other nations if they spend their capital fighting climate change. The biggest player in all this (China) isn?t playing, not even trying. They have no intentions of fighting climate change. Their company strategy is to out-compete the other nations economically with a long-range vision of taking over the African continent, replacing the people who live there now with their own, living with climate change. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Nov 12 15:51:32 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 09:51:32 -0600 Subject: [ExI] totalitarian techniques In-Reply-To: <009601d7d7da$a956f650$fc04e2f0$@rainier66.com> References: <7b57b8a0-f04c-d72c-e226-319659a8707a@zaiboc.net> <000001d7d7c2$9a3152f0$ce93f8d0$@rainier66.com> <009601d7d7da$a956f650$fc04e2f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Like the Japanese, the Chinese are a very proud people. They have been dominated by the Japanese to a certain extent and that motivates them. I think they are embarrassed that their country has lagged behind the West and Japan and now Korea, and they are desperate to catch up. They will burn coal or do whatever it takes to catch up. This is not time to hamstring your own efforts, they must think. Maybe they will moderate some of their stances when they do - we can only hope so. Their success at feeding their people has been extraordinary. American tends to view other countries as friends or enemies. We like to think that it is better to be cautious and treat someone as an enemy until they prove to be a friend. That is overly cautious. While we must remain on guard that a friend or neutral could become an enemy, we may be missing opportunities for an enemy to become a friend. If someone kept treating you as an enemy, what would you do or think? China could be the best friend we ever had. (Maybe it would help if we quit telling them how to run their country, esp. since we are far from blameless..) Love your enemies, the Bible says. Freud said that that was the hardest thing for anyone to do. Impossible, he said. I think not. bill w On Fri, Nov 12, 2021 at 9:36 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *BillK via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Friday, November 12, 2021 5:13 AM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* BillK > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] totalitarian techniques > > > > On Fri, 12 Nov 2021 at 12:44, spike jones via extropy-chat > >>? We should be using market forces to do that. So far, markets haven?t > chosen that as a high priority. > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > > > >?Fighting climate change has to be tackled at government level to pass > laws that apply to all companies. > > >?But it is not going to happen. The next generation will have to > survive as best they can. > > > > > > Ja. The fact that companies cannot compete if they spend their capital > fighting climate change scales up to any company of any size. It isn?t a > big leap of intuition to recognize that if a company is the size of a > nation, that same principle still applies, and if we want to view nations > as competing companies (they are, in a sense) then nations cannot compete > with other nations if they spend their capital fighting climate change. > > > > The biggest player in all this (China) isn?t playing, not even trying. > They have no intentions of fighting climate change. Their company strategy > is to out-compete the other nations economically with a long-range vision > of taking over the African continent, replacing the people who live there > now with their own, living with climate change. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From guessmyneeds at yahoo.com Fri Nov 12 19:09:52 2021 From: guessmyneeds at yahoo.com (Sherry Knepper) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 19:09:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] Pollen Count Data In-Reply-To: <986A0F00-C302-4FFC-8046-175335A65BB7@hxcore.ol> References: <986A0F00-C302-4FFC-8046-175335A65BB7@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: <1395295733.212291.1636744192907@mail.yahoo.com> My allergies have been terrible the past few years.? In the past month I gave had severe throat itching when I wake up which hadn't been a severe problem since the mid 1970s for me.? I would move to Utah if my allergy symptoms would be worth it, even though I hate cold winters.? My mom has severe sinus obstruction so we are going to try the seashore.? ?Good luck finding a new location.? Please let us know how it goes and I will also? Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 1:43 PM, Hermes Trismegistus via extropy-chat wrote: Does anyone here know where I can download free pollen count data for every city on Earth? I want to do a statistical analysis to determine my next home. I want to live somewhere with minimal pollen but more livable than a place such as Siberia. That pollen count is my primary factor for deciding where to move should indicate the severity of my allergy condition. _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk Fri Nov 12 19:51:32 2021 From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 19:51:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] mr. medes car fire In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2024159465.602908.1636746692969@mail.yahoo.com> Spike, you don't need to have many mirrors to reflect enough light to warp a modern car. I bring you an example of London architecture's finest, the Walkie Talkie! (It is compulsory for landmark buildings to have a nickname, the more stupid the better. I don't make the rules). This is what the BBC said:'Walkie-Talkie' skyscraper melts Jaguar car parts | | | | | | | | | | | 'Walkie-Talkie' skyscraper melts Jaguar car parts A new London skyscraper dubbed the "Walkie-Talkie" is blamed for reflecting light which melted parts of a car pa... | | | NBC newsThis London skyscraper can melt cars and set buildings on fire | | | | | | | | | | | This London skyscraper can melt cars and set buildings on fire London isn't famous for hot weather, but that may change soon, and not because of global warming: The design of... | | | AutoevolutionThis London Glass Skyscraper Could Melt Jaguars, Fry Eggs and Start Fires | | | | | | | | | | | This London Glass Skyscraper Could Melt Jaguars, Fry Eggs and Start Fires Elena Gorgan If you know anything about the UK, you know that the phrase ?scorching hot? isn?t that often associated with any... | | | Al Jazeera on youtubeUK building melts cars | | | | | | | | | | | UK building melts cars | | | You'd think an architect from Uruguay would know enough to avoid concave mirrors focusing heat, but then maybe he thought London wasn't sunny enough for this to be a problem. Tom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Nov 12 20:23:06 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 12:23:06 -0800 Subject: [ExI] mr. medes car fire In-Reply-To: <2024159465.602908.1636746692969@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2024159465.602908.1636746692969@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008e01d7d803$1a91e730$4fb5b590$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Tom Nowell via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] mr. medes car fire >?Spike, you don't need to have many mirrors to reflect enough light to warp a modern car. I bring you an example of London architecture's finest, the Walkie Talkie! (It is compulsory for landmark buildings to have a nickname, the more stupid the better. I don't make the rules).? >?You'd think an architect from Uruguay would know enough to avoid concave mirrors focusing heat, but then maybe he thought London wasn't sunny enough for this to be a problem. Tom Thanks Tom. When I lived in the desert in southern California, we saw plenty of cases where sunlight reflected off of a side mirror onto a door as the sun rose or set. That would double the solar intensity at that spot. If some silly goof didn?t know to park facing north, or didn?t have bags to put over the mirrors, this would happen to the doors in just one season: The desert was hard on a car?s appearance: the sun would blister the paint, the wind storms would sand blast the paint right off of them. We saw plenty of cars which were young and perfectly sound mechanically but had much or most of the paint scoured right off of it. There was little one could do but drive it that way. I thought of an idea which might let us set a car on fire without even the cheaty oxygen tanks: get some of that car window film which reflects IR, put the stuff on the outside of the windows with the reflective side facing in. That should help trap heat in there. I want to think of something that has a really low auto-ignition temperature, but not some goofball chemical that only mad scientists and?em? mad?or rather? curious?experimenty? engineers would ever fool with, but rather put something in that car which a normal person would have, such as? wax paper? What is something that might auto-ignite at or below about 250C? Good chance with enough mirrors and the reflective film turned around backwards, we could make it to 250 C. Tom I have seen car dashboards ruined by desert heat. The worst ones were the Japanese cars made in the 70s. There were some things about plastic Japanese car makers just didn?t get when they started importing cars to the USA. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 24204 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Fri Nov 12 20:53:42 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 20:53:42 +0000 Subject: [ExI] totalitarian techniques In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9637df10-2e91-b6b3-dd90-cf078bbcd1fa@zaiboc.net> On 12/11/2021 15:52, bill w wrote: > Like the Japanese, the Chinese are a very proud?people.? They have > been dominated by the Japanese to a certain extent and that motivates > them.? I think they are embarrassed that their country has lagged > behind the West and Japan and now Korea, and they are desperate to > catch up.? They will burn coal or do whatever it takes to catch up.? > This is not time to hamstring your own efforts, they must think. I reckon that's a rather outdated view. China has unprecendented economic power now. Just try buying a piece of electronic equipment that wasn't made in China (try buying virtually /anything/ from Amazon that wasn't made in China!). I'm just waiting for them to start throwing their economic weight about, dictating policies to other countries (remind you of anyone?). It's dismaying and worrying how many things are 'made in China', once you start taking notice. Here's an exercise: Look at all the things necessary for your current existence. Find out where they are produced. Cross out all the ones made in China. Could you live with what's left? I don't know if we've crossed that line yet, but If we're not very careful, they will conquer the world without firing a shot. I really doubt that this is just accidental. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Nov 12 21:29:27 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 15:29:27 -0600 Subject: [ExI] totalitarian techniques In-Reply-To: <9637df10-2e91-b6b3-dd90-cf078bbcd1fa@zaiboc.net> References: <9637df10-2e91-b6b3-dd90-cf078bbcd1fa@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: I would be glad to hear which of my ideas is outdated. China will become more like us very soon: they will stop making everything for Amazon because they will no longer have all that cheap labor. I am increasingly seeing 'made in Bangladesh' and 'made in Vietnam'. That trend will get bigger and bigger as the average Chinese gets more and more middle class. bill w On Fri, Nov 12, 2021 at 2:55 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 12/11/2021 15:52, bill w wrote: > > Like the Japanese, the Chinese are a very proud people. They have been > dominated by the Japanese to a certain extent and that motivates them. I > think they are embarrassed that their country has lagged behind the West > and Japan and now Korea, and they are desperate to catch up. They will > burn coal or do whatever it takes to catch up. This is not time to > hamstring your own efforts, they must think. > > I reckon that's a rather outdated view. > > China has unprecendented economic power now. Just try buying a piece of > electronic equipment that wasn't made in China (try buying virtually > *anything* from Amazon that wasn't made in China!). I'm just waiting for > them to start throwing their economic weight about, dictating policies to > other countries (remind you of anyone?). It's dismaying and worrying how > many things are 'made in China', once you start taking notice. Here's an > exercise: Look at all the things necessary for your current existence. Find > out where they are produced. Cross out all the ones made in China. Could > you live with what's left? I don't know if we've crossed that line yet, but > If we're not very careful, they will conquer the world without firing a > shot. I really doubt that this is just accidental. > > Ben > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Sat Nov 13 01:55:35 2021 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 17:55:35 -0800 Subject: [ExI] totalitarian techniques Message-ID: <20211112175535.Horde.2zh1gVyX9e7yixW3B0fFj5Z@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Bill Wallace: > Follow the money - learned that lesson decades ago (I was referring to the > politics of the viewer - not number - TV etc. can easily program different > things for different parts of the country. Just like goetta- would never > have learned about that in the South - niece from Ohio brought me some - > tasty!) > > "The love of money is the root of all evil." Not really 'all', but much. > bill w Quoting the bible now are we? Do you have a rational argument for the existence of good and evil? After all you speak of them like they are well-defined scientific concepts but are they? What precisely is evil, professor Wallace, and what is good? I have my own grim Darwinian answer, but I would like to hear yours. Here is a bible quote that contradicts yours from 1 John 4:8 KJV: "8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love." So God is love in all instances except when the love is for money? Money is responsible for most if not all of civilization. The only reason that societies with different Gods tolerate one another is because of money. Money is the grease in the wheels of progress and it is the manna of evolution at least for humans. > > Spike, you keep making these grand statements which are not even arguably > true. Lack of money did not stop all the tyrants in history (I will grant > you that some of them 'perceived' a lack of money). I do think that a > guaranteed income would get rid of a lot of problems, for sure. "If I give > you some money would you stop robbing me?" I think that's a fair trade. > What would be even better is that if the lower classes banded ('banded > together' is redundant) and formed a political party. Put enough of them > together and they will have plenty of money, and will get donations from > progressives etc. bill w Spike is not making grand statements. You think in terms of big evils like Stalin, but what of the little evils like someone whoring out their nine-old daughter to make rent? Do you truly not see Spike's point that poverty is the cause of much suffering in the world? Notice that I said suffering. I don't believe in evil. Evil is superstition. There is only selfishness and altruism. You may try to convince me otherwise. > Maybe you should read Adler, of Freud, Jung and Adler. His main motive was > power. This we share with all primates. > I shall never relinquish this point: if you only see one motive for > something, you are not looking deeply enough. Remember that the id may be > getting many kinds of jollies through one activity. Power not only brings > money, it brings finger up to those who said you were worthless, maybe even > their mothers. Some people describe power as a sexual thing, better than > orgasms. What kind of power? Over whom? For what purposes? Complex. > > In psychology, not even Pavlov's dog is simple. In psychology, reproducibility seems less important than simply publishing results of wishful one-offs. Sex is generally the purpose of power, at least in terms of primate hierarchies. Strange how evolutionary biology gives such explanatory power in psychology. Incidentally more to the point of the subject line, there are actually 6 generally accepted techniques of totalitarianism that were penned by the two political scientists that coined the term totalitarianism, Carl Joachim Friedrich and Zbigniew Brzezinski: 1. Elaborate guiding ideology. 2. Single mass party, typically led by a dictator. 3. System of terror, using such instruments as violence and secret police. 4. Monopoly on weapons. 5. Monopoly on the means of communication. 6. Central direction and control of the economy through state planning. This is encouraging because it suggests that so long as ordinary American citizens are well-armed, the United States can never become a totalitarian state. It also suggests that appeals to morality or other ideology highly suspect. The road to hell is paved with "good" intentions. Stuart LaForge From spike at rainier66.com Sat Nov 13 02:25:01 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 18:25:01 -0800 Subject: [ExI] totalitarian techniques In-Reply-To: <20211112175535.Horde.2zh1gVyX9e7yixW3B0fFj5Z@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20211112175535.Horde.2zh1gVyX9e7yixW3B0fFj5Z@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <004f01d7d835$a9a6b4a0$fcf41de0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat ... >...Money is responsible for most if not all of civilization. The only reason that societies with different Gods tolerate one another is because of money. Money is the grease in the wheels of progress and it is the manna of evolution at least for humans. Stuart! This brings tears to my eyes. I am moved, me lad! Such profound insights for a young man. Especially this part: >...Money is the grease in the wheels of progress and it is the manna of evolution at least for humans. Pure poetry! Please may I steal that? I will say nice things about you every time I use it. >> Spike, you keep making these grand statements which are not even arguably true. ... bill w >...Spike is not making grand statements.... On the contrary sir, all my statements are grand. Some are even more so: they reach up to grandiose. And all are arguably true, even if I am the only one arguing in their favor (against myself.) In that case, I always win the argument of course, for eventually I always reach agreement with me. ... >...This is encouraging because it suggests that so long as ordinary American citizens are well-armed, the United States can never become a totalitarian state... Ja that notion is in keeping with my understanding and the framers of the US constitution, who knew a lot about tyranny and how to make sure it didn't come back after they bled to defeat it. >... It also suggests that appeals to morality or other ideology highly suspect. The road to hell is paved with "good" intentions. Stuart LaForge _______________________________________________ I have heard this. That same road has plenty of street signs made of bad intentions. These signs are not at all difficult to read. spike From spike at rainier66.com Sat Nov 13 02:37:00 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 18:37:00 -0800 Subject: [ExI] oh deer Message-ID: <005f01d7d837$56674b90$0335e2b0$@rainier66.com> Sheesh this came outta nowhere: https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/11/10/1054224204/how-sars-cov -2-in-american-deer-could-alter-the-course-of-the-global-pandemic If covid has found a reservoir in deer, it could help explain why the USA has such a high case rate: we preserve a lotta wilderness, and we tend to smite the beasts often with our Detroits. eh scratch that, probably not a big factor. Bu if covid can settle into deer populations, the virus is with us forever. We can't immunize the deer. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sat Nov 13 10:19:45 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2021 10:19:45 +0000 Subject: [ExI] totalitarian techniques In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <15e3d152-47fe-d202-4a29-86e89d2ee315@zaiboc.net> On 13/11/2021 01:55, bill w wrote: > > I would be glad to hear which of my ideas is outdated. The idea that China somehow needs to catch up with the west, or anyone else. See: https://statisticstimes.com/economy/united-states-vs-china-economy.php As far as ideology is concerned, I'm certain that the communist chinese think that everyone else needs to catch up with them! Even the idea that they can't innovate or do original scientific research, and have to steal other people's ideas is outdated: https://hbr.org/2021/05/chinas-new-innovation-advantage https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/02/these-charts-show-how-china-is-becoming-an-innovation-superpower/ > > China will become more like us very soon:? they will stop making > everything for Amazon because they will no longer have all that cheap > labor.? I am increasingly seeing 'made in Bangladesh' and 'made in > Vietnam'.? That trend will get bigger and bigger as the average > Chinese gets more and more middle class.? bill w I do hope you're right. I doubt it, though. Even if average citizens get wealthier, automation will easily replace human labour, and the chinese government certainly won't have any qualms about that. Communist China is very different in outlook to western democracies. The whole 'group is more important than individual' mindset has been very successful there, even though it seems to go against human nature. Certainly the masses seem to agree with it, or at least acquiesce to it. The leaders probably see it as a useful tool for wielding power. I think that this rapid buildup of economic and technological power, combined with their totalitarian ideology, should be making us very worried indeed. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Nov 13 15:58:18 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2021 09:58:18 -0600 Subject: [ExI] totalitarian techniques In-Reply-To: <15e3d152-47fe-d202-4a29-86e89d2ee315@zaiboc.net> References: <15e3d152-47fe-d202-4a29-86e89d2ee315@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Satchel Paige: "Don't look behind you. Some one may be catching up to you" I don't think China is there yet, but it's gaining fast. spike tells me that he lives in a mostly ASian community and the Chinese people hate communism. The Hong Kong protests are just the first sign that totalitarianism the Communist way is doomed in the long run. Agree on the group/individual idea. That's all over Asia, not just China. Alfred E Neuman - 'What? Me worry"? I don't believe in worry. I believe in concern. We are still the hardest working people in the world last time I saw the figures. I have no idea how government can support the economy, but that's the most important thing. Not building more military strength. bill w On Sat, Nov 13, 2021 at 4:22 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 13/11/2021 01:55, bill w wrote: > > > I would be glad to hear which of my ideas is outdated. > > The idea that China somehow needs to catch up with the west, or anyone > else. See: > https://statisticstimes.com/economy/united-states-vs-china-economy.php > > As far as ideology is concerned, I'm certain that the communist chinese > think that everyone else needs to catch up with them! > > Even the idea that they can't innovate or do original scientific research, > and have to steal other people's ideas is outdated: > https://hbr.org/2021/05/chinas-new-innovation-advantage > > > https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/02/these-charts-show-how-china-is-becoming-an-innovation-superpower/ > > > > China will become more like us very soon: they will stop making > everything for Amazon because they will no longer have all that cheap > labor. I am increasingly seeing 'made in Bangladesh' and 'made in > Vietnam'. That trend will get bigger and bigger as the average Chinese > gets more and more middle class. bill w > > I do hope you're right. I doubt it, though. Even if average citizens get > wealthier, automation will easily replace human labour, and the chinese > government certainly won't have any qualms about that. > > Communist China is very different in outlook to western democracies. The > whole 'group is more important than individual' mindset has been very > successful there, even though it seems to go against human nature. > Certainly the masses seem to agree with it, or at least acquiesce to it. > The leaders probably see it as a useful tool for wielding power. > > I think that this rapid buildup of economic and technological power, > combined with their totalitarian ideology, should be making us very worried > indeed. > > Ben > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Nov 13 16:26:59 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2021 10:26:59 -0600 Subject: [ExI] totalitarian techniques In-Reply-To: <20211112175535.Horde.2zh1gVyX9e7yixW3B0fFj5Z@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20211112175535.Horde.2zh1gVyX9e7yixW3B0fFj5Z@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: > > > Quoting the bible now are we? Do you have a rational argument for > the existence of good and evil? > > Here is a simplistic moral theory, which like the Golden Rule, has > exceptions: assumption: human beings are a good thing; fact: we evolved > in tribes; moral: anything that hurts the tribe is bad (I don't have to use > the word evil) and if it helps, it's good. When it's tribe versus tribe it > gets stickier. > > what of the little evils like someone whoring out > their nine-old daughter to make rent? Do you truly not see Spike's > point that poverty is the cause of much suffering in the world? I have no quarrel with poverty being really bad. Possibly the very worst thing. > > > In psychology, reproducibility seems less important than simply > publishing results of wishful one-offs. No one is a bigger critic of psychology than me. Here is a short version of my story: I started teaching because I had to have income. As time went one I went to conferences and symposia, where I was very critical of the level of the research being presented (far worse: conferences on educational research). All of it was bad. All. It was a stage for people to present things designed for promotion and tenure. I quit going because I got tired of criticizing every session article I heard. Depressing. Any real good research went in the good journals (which are a small minority). So I decided not to play the game. I never published one thing after grad school. I did get a paper into a conference just to have something on my resume. My chair was lazy and in a sinecure and didn't care what I did or didn't do. I devoted my time to teaching and I was pretty good at it and am proud of it. I am also proud that I did not contribute to the bullshit that was what most psychologists put out (how to stop that game? I just dunno). I made full professor and got emeritus status. I also never tried to move! I was happy there. Clinical psych is even worse than the experimental areas as far as the importance of the studies and the reproducability of them. > Sex is generally the purpose > of power, at least in terms of primate hierarchies. Strange how > evolutionary biology gives such explanatory power in psychology. > I regard myself as an evolutionary psychologist. A local school has a > dept of psychology and neuroscience. I think that is the near future of > our discipline. Getting harder and harder science. I lean far more > towards biology than towards sociology (those people are really nuts). I hope I have answered your questions. bill w > > Stuart LaForge > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Mon Nov 15 08:36:08 2021 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 09:36:08 +0100 Subject: [ExI] My current take on emergence and causation. Is the universe pulled toward Life? Message-ID: Turing Church newsletter: My current take on emergence and causation. Is the universe pulled toward Life? I have been reading and thinking a lot about causation and the metaphysics of biology. This is a snapshot of my current take. https://www.turingchurch.com/p/my-current-take-on-emergence-and From avant at sollegro.com Tue Nov 16 03:40:54 2021 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 19:40:54 -0800 Subject: [ExI] mr. medes car fire Message-ID: <20211115194054.Horde.IfMnAx__2Mql58o8VBHI_n4@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Tom Nowell: > Spike, you don't need to have many mirrors to reflect enough light > to warp a modern car. I bring you an example of London > architecture's finest, the Walkie Talkie! (It is compulsory for > landmark buildings to have a nickname, the more stupid the better. I > don't make the rules). > This is what the BBC said:'Walkie-Talkie' skyscraper melts Jaguar car parts > 'Walkie-Talkie' skyscraper melts Jaguar car parts > > A new London skyscraper dubbed the "Walkie-Talkie" is blamed for > reflecting light which melted parts of a car pa... > NBC newsThis London skyscraper can melt cars and set buildings on fire > This London skyscraper can melt cars and set buildings on fire > London isn't famous for hot weather, but that may change soon, and > not because of global warming: The design of... > AutoevolutionThis London Glass Skyscraper Could Melt Jaguars, Fry > Eggs and Start Fires The cool thing about this is that it is a proof-of-principle that Archimedes, the guy who invented density, buoyancy, and pi could actually have used men holding polished shields atop the walls of the harbor of Syracuse to burn the whole fleet of approaching Roman ships. They should totally make a movie about that guy. He was amazing. He used science and technology to hand the Roman Navy its ass > You'd think an architect from Uruguay would know enough to avoid > concave mirrors focusing heat, but then maybe he thought London > wasn't sunny enough for this to be a problem. I think you hit the nail on the head. Probably not a sunny day the whole time they built it. I imagine there are many such examples of architecture poorly designed for climate change waiting to be noticed. Stuart LaForge From giulio at gmail.com Tue Nov 16 07:14:49 2021 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 08:14:49 +0100 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] My current take on emergence and causation. Is the universe pulled toward Life? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 4:22 PM John Clark wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 3:36 AM Giulio Prisco wrote: > >> > https://www.turingchurch.com/p/my-current-take-on-emergence-and > > >> > Is life entailed by physics? Is the emergence and growth of life a result of the kind of physics we are familiar with (known physics and incremental improvements based on the reductionist framework of known physics)? Or do we need a new framework? > > > I don't think a new physics framework would be of any use in understanding how life works. > >> > or will they require an entirely new framework where other forms of causation (e.g. backward, downward, top-down, teleological) play a role alongside the efficient causation mechanisms of today?s physics? > > > I rather doubt it but there's a possibility backward causality might be important in very fundamental physics, but if it is I don't think it would only be important only to physics that eventually involves life but rather to everything and all of physics; there would be nothing special about life in that regard. I agree. Life "works" like the rest of physics. If new principles are needed to explain life, those new principles apply to the rest of the world. > As for teleology, if things happen because of the purpose they serve rather than causes that produce them then that leaves open the question of whose purpose? There doesn't seem to be a universal answer to that question and if something claims to be the ultimate answer to everything then it should be true in every frame of reference, and teleology is not. > >> >> > Kauffman bets on a concept due to Ma?l Mont?vil and Matteo Mossio (2015) called ?Constraint Closure? as an organizational principle that builds order ?faster than that order can be dissipated by the second law of thermodynamics.? > > > I don't see how that could be true. If there's one law of physics that would hold true in every universe in the multiverse I'm convinced it would be the Second Law Of Thermodynamics, that's because it's based on logic and not on other physical laws, it's simply true that there are more ways something can be chaotic than ways it can be well ordered. But you agree with "Producing physical systems that keep low entropy locally (e.g. living systems) is the fastest way for the universe to increase global entropy" below, which is essentially the same thing. Pockets of local order are the fastest way to grow overall disorder (by eating free energy from the environment and giving back high entropy waste), and that's how thermodynamics favors life (or so these people think). > >> > the efficient causation laws of the physics we know are strictly followed, but leave the actual evolution of physical systems under-determined. > > > Yes, but if Hugh Everett's many worlds idea is correct then that would explain why at the smallest most fundamental level we can only make probabilistic predictions not exact ones. > Perhaps we don't need an "explanation" of the probabilistic nature of physical laws. Perhaps this is just how things work. >> > it can be argued that classical mechanics is under-determined as well, and that under-determination might follow from G?del?s theorems. > > > If quantum mechanics is under-determined at the sub microscopic level (and it is) then things at our everyday macroscopic level must be under-determined too. Godel told us that there are true statements in arithmetic that have no proof (the Goldbach Conjecture maybe?); I hope not but perhaps in a similar way there are true things about physics that have no experimental verification. > Yes. >> > I think definable natural laws only scratch the thin surface of a thick reality that can?t be reduced to a finite description > > > If so then it's a waste of time to even talk about an ultimate description of reality. As Wittgenstein said "What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence". > There's scratching the surface, and there's scratching the surface a bit deeper. We can't know everything at a given time, but we CAN know (and do) more than we could before. > >> > physical laws maximize overall entropy production rates. Producing physical systems that keep low entropy locally (e.g. living systems) is the fastest way for the universe to increase global entropy, and that?s it. > > > I agree with that. > >> > [The] universe is rationally governed in more than one way - not only through the universal quantitative laws of physics that underlie efficient causation but also through principles which imply that things happen because they are on a path that leads toward certain outcomes - notably, the existence of living, and ultimately of conscious, organisms.? > > > If Hugh Everett is correct and everything that is not logically self-contradictory (such as a violation of the second law of thermodynamics) does happen, then it's not surprising that intelligence finds itself in a universe in which stable structures that can process data (Turing Machines) are possible. As for consciousness, after saying consciousness is the way data feels when it is being processed I don't think there's much more that can be said about it. > > John K Clark >> >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv0MXLd5z4tCLqj6eK3_prQ%2Bp%3Dg%3DsB6340k6t7K6sjdo%2Bw%40mail.gmail.com. From giulio at gmail.com Tue Nov 16 15:54:29 2021 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 16:54:29 +0100 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] My current take on emergence and causation. Is the universe pulled toward Life? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2021. Nov 16., Tue at 13:08, John Clark wrote: > On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 2:15 AM Giulio Prisco wrote: > > *> Perhaps we don't need an "explanation" of the probabilistic nature of >> physical laws. Perhaps this is just how things work.* > > > Maybe. We know from Gleason's theorem that if quantum probabilities are to > make any sense, that is to say if all the probabilities are real numbers > between 0 and 1 and all the probabilities of a predicted event add up to > exactly 1, then all the probabilities must be expressible by the square of > the absolute value of the wave function just as quantum mechanics says. So > the real question is not why does the Born rule exist but rather why must > we use probabilities at all, why can't we make exact predictions? Perhaps > the answer is just as you say, that's just the way things work; after all > there's no law of logic that says every event must have a cause. > Exactly. Btw I?m thinking about this. Think of a sequence of random bits, call it R(n). Now think of the same sequence as the deterministic unfolding of a random real number r given as initial condition. So the sequence becomes D(n) = nth bit in the binary expansion of r. R is random, and D is deterministic. But R and D are the same thing!!! > > John K Clark > ============= > > On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 2:15 AM Giulio Prisco wrote: > >> On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 4:22 PM John Clark wrote: >> > >> > On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 3:36 AM Giulio Prisco wrote: >> > >> >> > https://www.turingchurch.com/p/my-current-take-on-emergence-and >> > >> > >> >> > Is life entailed by physics? Is the emergence and growth of life a >> result of the kind of physics we are familiar with (known physics and >> incremental improvements based on the reductionist framework of known >> physics)? Or do we need a new framework? >> > >> > >> > I don't think a new physics framework would be of any use in >> understanding how life works. >> > >> >> > or will they require an entirely new framework where other forms of >> causation (e.g. backward, downward, top-down, teleological) play a role >> alongside the efficient causation mechanisms of today?s physics? >> > >> > >> > I rather doubt it but there's a possibility backward causality might be >> important in very fundamental physics, but if it is I don't think it would >> only be important only to physics that eventually involves life but rather >> to everything and all of physics; there would be nothing special about life >> in that regard. >> >> I agree. Life "works" like the rest of physics. If new principles are >> needed to explain life, those new principles apply to the rest of the >> world. >> >> > As for teleology, if things happen because of the purpose they serve >> rather than causes that produce them then that leaves open the question of >> whose purpose? There doesn't seem to be a universal answer to that question >> and if something claims to be the ultimate answer to everything then it >> should be true in every frame of reference, and teleology is not. >> > >> >> >> >> > Kauffman bets on a concept due to Ma?l Mont?vil and Matteo Mossio >> (2015) called ?Constraint Closure? as an organizational principle that >> builds order ?faster than that order can be dissipated by the second law of >> thermodynamics.? >> > >> > >> > I don't see how that could be true. If there's one law of physics that >> would hold true in every universe in the multiverse I'm convinced it would >> be the Second Law Of Thermodynamics, that's because it's based on logic and >> not on other physical laws, it's simply true that there are more ways >> something can be chaotic than ways it can be well ordered. >> >> But you agree with "Producing physical systems that keep low entropy >> locally (e.g. living systems) is the fastest way for the universe to >> increase global entropy" below, which is essentially the same thing. >> Pockets of local order are the fastest way to grow overall disorder >> (by eating free energy from the environment and giving back high >> entropy waste), and that's how thermodynamics favors life (or so these >> people think). >> >> > >> >> > the efficient causation laws of the physics we know are strictly >> followed, but leave the actual evolution of physical systems >> under-determined. >> > >> > >> > Yes, but if Hugh Everett's many worlds idea is correct then that would >> explain why at the smallest most fundamental level we can only make >> probabilistic predictions not exact ones. >> > >> >> Perhaps we don't need an "explanation" of the probabilistic nature of >> physical laws. Perhaps this is just how things work. >> >> >> > it can be argued that classical mechanics is under-determined as >> well, and that under-determination might follow from G?del?s theorems. >> > >> > >> > If quantum mechanics is under-determined at the sub microscopic level >> (and it is) then things at our everyday macroscopic level must be >> under-determined too. Godel told us that there are true statements in >> arithmetic that have no proof (the Goldbach Conjecture maybe?); I hope not >> but perhaps in a similar way there are true things about physics that have >> no experimental verification. >> > >> >> Yes. >> >> >> > I think definable natural laws only scratch the thin surface of a >> thick reality that can?t be reduced to a finite description >> > >> > >> > If so then it's a waste of time to even talk about an ultimate >> description of reality. As Wittgenstein said "What we cannot speak about >> we must pass over in silence". >> > >> >> There's scratching the surface, and there's scratching the surface a >> bit deeper. We can't know everything at a given time, but we CAN know >> (and do) more than we could before. >> >> > >> >> > physical laws maximize overall entropy production rates. Producing >> physical systems that keep low entropy locally (e.g. living systems) is the >> fastest way for the universe to increase global entropy, and that?s it. >> > >> > >> > I agree with that. >> > >> >> > [The] universe is rationally governed in more than one way - not >> only through the universal quantitative laws of physics that underlie >> efficient causation but also through principles which imply that things >> happen because they are on a path that leads toward certain outcomes - >> notably, the existence of living, and ultimately of conscious, organisms.? >> > >> > >> > If Hugh Everett is correct and everything that is not logically >> self-contradictory (such as a violation of the second law of >> thermodynamics) does happen, then it's not surprising that intelligence >> finds itself in a universe in which stable structures that can process data >> (Turing Machines) are possible. As for consciousness, after saying >> consciousness is the way data feels when it is being processed I don't >> think there's much more that can be said about it. >> > >> > John K Clark >> >> >> >> >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "extropolis" group. >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >> an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >> > To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv0MXLd5z4tCLqj6eK3_prQ%2Bp%3Dg%3DsB6340k6t7K6sjdo%2Bw%40mail.gmail.com >> . >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "extropolis" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >> > To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAKTCJyd7S3d3SZpb_4K%2B3537uiJMcWigiVsEokP5O0-%3Dc_5XnQ%40mail.gmail.com >> . >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "extropolis" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv3aceCDtrp0Fy3gfE86m7srwuzD878MVX1FN74KSyELZQ%40mail.gmail.com > > . > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Wed Nov 17 09:15:17 2021 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 10:15:17 +0100 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] My current take on emergence and causation. Is the universe pulled toward Life? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 10:12 PM John Clark wrote: > > > On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 10:54 AM Giulio Prisco wrote: > >> On 2021. Nov 16., Tue at 13:08, John Clark wrote: >>> >>> On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 2:15 AM Giulio Prisco wrote: >>> >>>> >>> Perhaps we don't need an "explanation" of the probabilistic nature of physical laws. Perhaps this is just how things work. >>> >>> >>> >> Maybe. We know from Gleason's theorem that if quantum probabilities are to make any sense, that is to say if all the probabilities are real numbers between 0 and 1 and all the probabilities of a predicted event add up to exactly 1, then all the probabilities must be expressible by the square of the absolute value of the wave function just as quantum mechanics says. So the real question is not why does the Born rule exist but rather why must we use probabilities at all, why can't we make exact predictions? Perhaps the answer is just as you say, that's just the way things work; after all there's no law of logic that says every event must have a cause. >> >> >> > Exactly. Btw I?m thinking about this. Think of a sequence of random bits, call it R(n). Now think of the same sequence as the deterministic unfolding of a random real number r given as initial condition. So the sequence becomes D(n) = nth bit in the binary expansion of r. R is random, and D is deterministic. But R and D are the same thing!!! > > > It's not really deterministic because it depends on initial conditions which are random; but then again maybe it is deterministic after all, Hugh Everett would say every possible initial condition exists (and therefore every random sequence is revealed), it's just that "you" only get to observe one of them. After all , the quantum wave function is completely deterministic but, because we can only observe a very small part of it, things seem random to us, so we must resort to probability in our predictions. > Everett aside, we have this problem all over mathematical physics based on differential equations and real numbers. We insist that things unfold deterministically from given initial conditions, but the initial conditions are real numbers, the vast majority of which (besides a zero measure subset) are uncomputable and random. We may as well think that experiments reveal or perhaps *define* or even *create* the initial conditions in the past, and everything becomes circular. Nicolas Gisin makes similar points in his recent papers based on analogies with intuitionist maths: https://arxiv.org/search/physics?searchtype=author&query=Gisin%2C+N > John K Clark > > > > >> >>> >>> >>> John K Clark >>> ============= >>> >>> On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 2:15 AM Giulio Prisco wrote: >>>> >>>> On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 4:22 PM John Clark wrote: >>>> > >>>> > On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 3:36 AM Giulio Prisco wrote: >>>> > >>>> >> > https://www.turingchurch.com/p/my-current-take-on-emergence-and >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >> > Is life entailed by physics? Is the emergence and growth of life a result of the kind of physics we are familiar with (known physics and incremental improvements based on the reductionist framework of known physics)? Or do we need a new framework? >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > I don't think a new physics framework would be of any use in understanding how life works. >>>> > >>>> >> > or will they require an entirely new framework where other forms of causation (e.g. backward, downward, top-down, teleological) play a role alongside the efficient causation mechanisms of today?s physics? >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > I rather doubt it but there's a possibility backward causality might be important in very fundamental physics, but if it is I don't think it would only be important only to physics that eventually involves life but rather to everything and all of physics; there would be nothing special about life in that regard. >>>> >>>> I agree. Life "works" like the rest of physics. If new principles are >>>> needed to explain life, those new principles apply to the rest of the >>>> world. >>>> >>>> > As for teleology, if things happen because of the purpose they serve rather than causes that produce them then that leaves open the question of whose purpose? There doesn't seem to be a universal answer to that question and if something claims to be the ultimate answer to everything then it should be true in every frame of reference, and teleology is not. >>>> > >>>> >> >>>> >> > Kauffman bets on a concept due to Ma?l Mont?vil and Matteo Mossio (2015) called ?Constraint Closure? as an organizational principle that builds order ?faster than that order can be dissipated by the second law of thermodynamics.? >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > I don't see how that could be true. If there's one law of physics that would hold true in every universe in the multiverse I'm convinced it would be the Second Law Of Thermodynamics, that's because it's based on logic and not on other physical laws, it's simply true that there are more ways something can be chaotic than ways it can be well ordered. >>>> >>>> But you agree with "Producing physical systems that keep low entropy >>>> locally (e.g. living systems) is the fastest way for the universe to >>>> increase global entropy" below, which is essentially the same thing. >>>> Pockets of local order are the fastest way to grow overall disorder >>>> (by eating free energy from the environment and giving back high >>>> entropy waste), and that's how thermodynamics favors life (or so these >>>> people think). >>>> >>>> > >>>> >> > the efficient causation laws of the physics we know are strictly followed, but leave the actual evolution of physical systems under-determined. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Yes, but if Hugh Everett's many worlds idea is correct then that would explain why at the smallest most fundamental level we can only make probabilistic predictions not exact ones. >>>> > >>>> >>>> Perhaps we don't need an "explanation" of the probabilistic nature of >>>> physical laws. Perhaps this is just how things work. >>>> >>>> >> > it can be argued that classical mechanics is under-determined as well, and that under-determination might follow from G?del?s theorems. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > If quantum mechanics is under-determined at the sub microscopic level (and it is) then things at our everyday macroscopic level must be under-determined too. Godel told us that there are true statements in arithmetic that have no proof (the Goldbach Conjecture maybe?); I hope not but perhaps in a similar way there are true things about physics that have no experimental verification. >>>> > >>>> >>>> Yes. >>>> >>>> >> > I think definable natural laws only scratch the thin surface of a thick reality that can?t be reduced to a finite description >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > If so then it's a waste of time to even talk about an ultimate description of reality. As Wittgenstein said "What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence". >>>> > >>>> >>>> There's scratching the surface, and there's scratching the surface a >>>> bit deeper. We can't know everything at a given time, but we CAN know >>>> (and do) more than we could before. >>>> >>>> > >>>> >> > physical laws maximize overall entropy production rates. Producing physical systems that keep low entropy locally (e.g. living systems) is the fastest way for the universe to increase global entropy, and that?s it. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > I agree with that. >>>> > >>>> >> > [The] universe is rationally governed in more than one way - not only through the universal quantitative laws of physics that underlie efficient causation but also through principles which imply that things happen because they are on a path that leads toward certain outcomes - notably, the existence of living, and ultimately of conscious, organisms.? >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > If Hugh Everett is correct and everything that is not logically self-contradictory (such as a violation of the second law of thermodynamics) does happen, then it's not surprising that intelligence finds itself in a universe in which stable structures that can process data (Turing Machines) are possible. As for consciousness, after saying consciousness is the way data feels when it is being processed I don't think there's much more that can be said about it. >>>> > >>>> > John K Clark >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> > -- >>>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. >>>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >>>> > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv0MXLd5z4tCLqj6eK3_prQ%2Bp%3Dg%3DsB6340k6t7K6sjdo%2Bw%40mail.gmail.com. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >>>> >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAKTCJyd7S3d3SZpb_4K%2B3537uiJMcWigiVsEokP5O0-%3Dc_5XnQ%40mail.gmail.com. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv3aceCDtrp0Fy3gfE86m7srwuzD878MVX1FN74KSyELZQ%40mail.gmail.com. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAKTCJyd5fvV4KUuYDjo1Y0s9xCwBp8gjB%2Bha%3D64qedG%2B-cZ1WA%40mail.gmail.com. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv3yvLiwTwiFZ265kao9kzXJcr7%2BP88qt8KAkGDCd9yF9w%40mail.gmail.com. From pharos at gmail.com Wed Nov 17 16:05:05 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 16:05:05 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Is quantum mechanics is deterministic or stochastic? Message-ID: In Giulio's current discussion, John Clark claimed "the quantum wave function is completely deterministic but, because we can only observe a very small part of it, things seem random to us, so we must resort to probability in our predictions." ------------- This claim is much disputed by quantum theorists. Every experiment has supported the randomness of quantum mechanics. While emotionally appealing (e.g. Einstein), the search for support of 'hidden-variables theory' has so far failed. Bell's theorem would appear to prove many hidden-variable theories to be impossible. See: Ethan Siegel has a recent article on this very subject. Quotes: STARTS WITH A BANG ? NOVEMBER 16, 2021 How the best alternative to ?quantum spookiness? failed Many still cling to the idea that we live in a deterministic Universe, despite the nature of quantum physics. Now, the "least spooky" interpretation no longer works. The idea that two quanta could be instantaneously entangled with one another, even across large distances, is often talked about as the spookiest part of quantum physics. If reality were fundamentally deterministic and were governed by hidden variables, this spookiness could be removed. Unfortunately, attempts to do away with this type of quantum weirdness have all failed. KEY TAKEAWAYS Until the discovery of radioactivity and quantum physics, every particle and interaction was thought to obey completely deterministic equations. Quantum mechanics can only yield an indeterminate probability distribution of outcomes. It cannot tell you what comes next. The leading deterministic interpretation, involving hidden variables, is called Bohmian mechanics. Its only distinct prediction was just falsified. ----------------- Fascinating article! BillK From giulio at gmail.com Wed Nov 17 17:12:57 2021 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 18:12:57 +0100 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] My current take on emergence and causation. Is the universe pulled toward Life? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2021. Nov 17., Wed at 12:45, John Clark wrote: > On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 4:15 AM Giulio Prisco wrote: > > >> >> >> *> Everett aside, we have this problem all over mathematical physicsbased >> on differential equations and real numbers. We insist thatthings unfold >> deterministically from given initial conditions, but theinitial conditions >> are real numbers,* > > > But are they, are Real Numbers really real? The Bekenstein Bound says the > amount of information that can be packed inside a volume is proportional to > the number of Planck Areas (the square of the Planck Length) needed to > enclose it, and that number is an integer not a real number. Of course we > don't know for a fact that the Bekenstein Bound is true, and we don't know > for a fact the time and space are quantized, but if they are and there is a > smallest unit of time and a smallest unit of distance then Real Numbers are > a sort of mathematical Harry Potter story and our physical world can be > fully described without Real Numbers. > The Bekenstein bound is a quantum notion. Similarly, Heisenberg shows that assigning classical initial conditions to a particle is out. But it can be argued that real numbers are already a problem in classical physics, because we can?t know an infinite amount of information. > John K Clark > > == > > > > On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 4:15 AM Giulio Prisco wrote: > >> On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 10:12 PM John Clark wrote: >> > >> > >> > On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 10:54 AM Giulio Prisco >> wrote: >> > >> >> On 2021. Nov 16., Tue at 13:08, John Clark >> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 2:15 AM Giulio Prisco >> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> >>> Perhaps we don't need an "explanation" of the probabilistic >> nature of physical laws. Perhaps this is just how things work. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Maybe. We know from Gleason's theorem that if quantum >> probabilities are to make any sense, that is to say if all the >> probabilities are real numbers between 0 and 1 and all the probabilities of >> a predicted event add up to exactly 1, then all the probabilities must be >> expressible by the square of the absolute value of the wave function just >> as quantum mechanics says. So the real question is not why does the Born >> rule exist but rather why must we use probabilities at all, why can't we >> make exact predictions? Perhaps the answer is just as you say, that's just >> the way things work; after all there's no law of logic that says every >> event must have a cause. >> >> >> >> >> >> > Exactly. Btw I?m thinking about this. Think of a sequence of random >> bits, call it R(n). Now think of the same sequence as the deterministic >> unfolding of a random real number r given as initial condition. So the >> sequence becomes D(n) = nth bit in the binary expansion of r. R is random, >> and D is deterministic. But R and D are the same thing!!! >> > >> > >> > It's not really deterministic because it depends on initial conditions >> which are random; but then again maybe it is deterministic after all, Hugh >> Everett would say every possible initial condition exists (and therefore >> every random sequence is revealed), it's just that "you" only get to >> observe one of them. After all , the quantum wave function is completely >> deterministic but, because we can only observe a very small part of it, >> things seem random to us, so we must resort to probability in our >> predictions. >> > >> >> Everett aside, we have this problem all over mathematical physics >> based on differential equations and real numbers. We insist that >> things unfold deterministically from given initial conditions, but the >> initial conditions are real numbers, the vast majority of which >> (besides a zero measure subset) are uncomputable and random. We may as >> well think that experiments reveal or perhaps *define* or even >> *create* the initial conditions in the past, and everything becomes >> circular. Nicolas Gisin makes similar points in his recent papers >> based on analogies with intuitionist maths: >> https://arxiv.org/search/physics?searchtype=author&query=Gisin%2C+N >> >> > John K Clark >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> John K Clark >> >>> ============= >> >>> >> >>> On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 2:15 AM Giulio Prisco >> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 4:22 PM John Clark >> wrote: >> >>>> > >> >>>> > On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 3:36 AM Giulio Prisco >> wrote: >> >>>> > >> >>>> >> > https://www.turingchurch.com/p/my-current-take-on-emergence-and >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> >> > Is life entailed by physics? Is the emergence and growth of >> life a result of the kind of physics we are familiar with (known physics >> and incremental improvements based on the reductionist framework of known >> physics)? Or do we need a new framework? >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > I don't think a new physics framework would be of any use in >> understanding how life works. >> >>>> > >> >>>> >> > or will they require an entirely new framework where other >> forms of causation (e.g. backward, downward, top-down, teleological) play a >> role alongside the efficient causation mechanisms of today?s physics? >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > I rather doubt it but there's a possibility backward causality >> might be important in very fundamental physics, but if it is I don't think >> it would only be important only to physics that eventually involves life >> but rather to everything and all of physics; there would be nothing special >> about life in that regard. >> >>>> >> >>>> I agree. Life "works" like the rest of physics. If new principles are >> >>>> needed to explain life, those new principles apply to the rest of the >> >>>> world. >> >>>> >> >>>> > As for teleology, if things happen because of the purpose they >> serve rather than causes that produce them then that leaves open the >> question of whose purpose? There doesn't seem to be a universal answer to >> that question and if something claims to be the ultimate answer to >> everything then it should be true in every frame of reference, and >> teleology is not. >> >>>> > >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> > Kauffman bets on a concept due to Ma?l Mont?vil and Matteo >> Mossio (2015) called ?Constraint Closure? as an organizational principle >> that builds order ?faster than that order can be dissipated by the second >> law of thermodynamics.? >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > I don't see how that could be true. If there's one law of physics >> that would hold true in every universe in the multiverse I'm convinced it >> would be the Second Law Of Thermodynamics, that's because it's based on >> logic and not on other physical laws, it's simply true that there are more >> ways something can be chaotic than ways it can be well ordered. >> >>>> >> >>>> But you agree with "Producing physical systems that keep low entropy >> >>>> locally (e.g. living systems) is the fastest way for the universe to >> >>>> increase global entropy" below, which is essentially the same thing. >> >>>> Pockets of local order are the fastest way to grow overall disorder >> >>>> (by eating free energy from the environment and giving back high >> >>>> entropy waste), and that's how thermodynamics favors life (or so >> these >> >>>> people think). >> >>>> >> >>>> > >> >>>> >> > the efficient causation laws of the physics we know are >> strictly followed, but leave the actual evolution of physical systems >> under-determined. >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > Yes, but if Hugh Everett's many worlds idea is correct then that >> would explain why at the smallest most fundamental level we can only make >> probabilistic predictions not exact ones. >> >>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>> Perhaps we don't need an "explanation" of the probabilistic nature of >> >>>> physical laws. Perhaps this is just how things work. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> > it can be argued that classical mechanics is under-determined >> as well, and that under-determination might follow from G?del?s theorems. >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > If quantum mechanics is under-determined at the sub microscopic >> level (and it is) then things at our everyday macroscopic level must be >> under-determined too. Godel told us that there are true statements in >> arithmetic that have no proof (the Goldbach Conjecture maybe?); I hope not >> but perhaps in a similar way there are true things about physics that have >> no experimental verification. >> >>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>> Yes. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> > I think definable natural laws only scratch the thin surface of >> a thick reality that can?t be reduced to a finite description >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > If so then it's a waste of time to even talk about an ultimate >> description of reality. As Wittgenstein said "What we cannot speak about >> we must pass over in silence". >> >>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>> There's scratching the surface, and there's scratching the surface a >> >>>> bit deeper. We can't know everything at a given time, but we CAN know >> >>>> (and do) more than we could before. >> >>>> >> >>>> > >> >>>> >> > physical laws maximize overall entropy production rates. >> Producing physical systems that keep low entropy locally (e.g. living >> systems) is the fastest way for the universe to increase global entropy, >> and that?s it. >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > I agree with that. >> >>>> > >> >>>> >> > [The] universe is rationally governed in more than one way - >> not only through the universal quantitative laws of physics that underlie >> efficient causation but also through principles which imply that things >> happen because they are on a path that leads toward certain outcomes - >> notably, the existence of living, and ultimately of conscious, organisms.? >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > If Hugh Everett is correct and everything that is not logically >> self-contradictory (such as a violation of the second law of >> thermodynamics) does happen, then it's not surprising that intelligence >> finds itself in a universe in which stable structures that can process data >> (Turing Machines) are possible. As for consciousness, after saying >> consciousness is the way data feels when it is being processed I don't >> think there's much more that can be said about it. >> >>>> > >> >>>> > John K Clark >> > > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAKTCJydDrhP%2BZy88wbnLtTFbng0_7Pz%3DPYPYPoxtuScJgjNcRg%40mail.gmail.com > . > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "extropolis" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv38D1Mu6gAgU7kXCnwr07LYfaEda9xd%2B7MOy5uv0b6qiA%40mail.gmail.com > > . > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Wed Nov 17 17:15:19 2021 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 18:15:19 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Is quantum mechanics is deterministic or stochastic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2021. Nov 17., Wed at 17:07, BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > In Giulio's current discussion, John Clark claimed "the quantum wave > function is completely deterministic but, because we can only observe > a very small part of it, things seem random to us, so we must resort > to probability in our predictions." > ------------- > > This claim is much disputed by quantum theorists. Every experiment has > supported the randomness of quantum mechanics. While emotionally > appealing (e.g. Einstein), the search for support of 'hidden-variables > theory' has so far failed. Schr?dinger knew that, von Neumann knew that? But many scientists had and continue to have an emotional resistance to non-determinism. > > Bell's theorem would appear to prove many hidden-variable theories to > be impossible. > See: > > > Ethan Siegel has a recent article on this very subject. > > > Quotes: > STARTS WITH A BANG ? NOVEMBER 16, 2021 > > How the best alternative to ?quantum spookiness? failed > > Many still cling to the idea that we live in a deterministic Universe, > despite the nature of quantum physics. Now, the "least spooky" > interpretation no longer works. > The idea that two quanta could be instantaneously entangled with one > another, even across large distances, is often talked about as the > spookiest part of quantum physics. If reality were fundamentally > deterministic and were governed by hidden variables, this spookiness > could be removed. Unfortunately, attempts to do away with this type of > quantum weirdness have all failed. > > KEY TAKEAWAYS > Until the discovery of radioactivity and quantum physics, every > particle and interaction was thought to obey completely deterministic > equations. Quantum mechanics can only yield an indeterminate > probability distribution of outcomes. It cannot tell you what comes > next. The leading deterministic interpretation, involving hidden > variables, is called Bohmian mechanics. Its only distinct prediction > was just falsified. > ----------------- > > Fascinating article! > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Nov 17 18:42:49 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 10:42:49 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Is quantum mechanics is deterministic or stochastic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The defenders of quantum randomness make much about knocking down strawman after strawman of limited hidden-variables. They don't seem to be making any headway against superdeterminism: the idea that all the variables are determined in advance. There are those who dismiss superdeterminism, claiming it is "obviously" incompatible with free will, which we observe that we have. But there are ways to have both (for instance: the variables are predetermined now, but that which made the decisions - that which determined the variables - is our free will). On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 8:07 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > In Giulio's current discussion, John Clark claimed "the quantum wave > function is completely deterministic but, because we can only observe > a very small part of it, things seem random to us, so we must resort > to probability in our predictions." > ------------- > > This claim is much disputed by quantum theorists. Every experiment has > supported the randomness of quantum mechanics. While emotionally > appealing (e.g. Einstein), the search for support of 'hidden-variables > theory' has so far failed. > > Bell's theorem would appear to prove many hidden-variable theories to > be impossible. > See: > > > Ethan Siegel has a recent article on this very subject. > > > Quotes: > STARTS WITH A BANG ? NOVEMBER 16, 2021 > > How the best alternative to ?quantum spookiness? failed > > Many still cling to the idea that we live in a deterministic Universe, > despite the nature of quantum physics. Now, the "least spooky" > interpretation no longer works. > The idea that two quanta could be instantaneously entangled with one > another, even across large distances, is often talked about as the > spookiest part of quantum physics. If reality were fundamentally > deterministic and were governed by hidden variables, this spookiness > could be removed. Unfortunately, attempts to do away with this type of > quantum weirdness have all failed. > > KEY TAKEAWAYS > Until the discovery of radioactivity and quantum physics, every > particle and interaction was thought to obey completely deterministic > equations. Quantum mechanics can only yield an indeterminate > probability distribution of outcomes. It cannot tell you what comes > next. The leading deterministic interpretation, involving hidden > variables, is called Bohmian mechanics. Its only distinct prediction > was just falsified. > ----------------- > > Fascinating article! > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Thu Nov 18 02:24:35 2021 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 21:24:35 -0500 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] My current take on emergence and causation. Is the universe pulled toward Life? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 12:15 PM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2021. Nov 17., Wed at 12:45, John Clark wrote: > >> On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 4:15 AM Giulio Prisco wrote: >> >> >>> >>> >>> *> Everett aside, we have this problem all over mathematical >>> physicsbased on differential equations and real numbers. We insist >>> thatthings unfold deterministically from given initial conditions, but >>> theinitial conditions are real numbers,* >> >> >> But are they, are Real Numbers really real? The Bekenstein Bound says >> the amount of information that can be packed inside a volume is >> proportional to the number of Planck Areas (the square of the Planck >> Length) needed to enclose it, and that number is an integer not a real >> number. Of course we don't know for a fact that the Bekenstein Bound is >> true, and we don't know for a fact the time and space are quantized, but if >> they are and there is a smallest unit of time and a smallest unit of >> distance then Real Numbers are a sort of mathematical Harry Potter story >> and our physical world can be fully described without Real Numbers. >> > > The Bekenstein bound is a quantum notion. Similarly, Heisenberg shows that > assigning classical initial conditions to a particle is out. But it can be > argued that real numbers are already a problem in classical physics, > because we can?t know an infinite amount of information. > Are we talking about Real vs Integer or Real vs Imaginary? I have an intuition I can't fully express that Imaginary numbers 'combine' in some ways to produce states that exist and in others do not. An analogy might be interference of waves - with the correct timing/phase there appears to be no wave because it's propagating with its own inverse; or a doubling of amplitude with a perfectly tuned twin; or some combination of constructive or destructive net result. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Nov 18 13:35:10 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 07:35:10 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [Extropolis] NYTimes.com: Want to Save the Earth? We Need a Lot More Elon Musks. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What matters to me are the billions of people who are environmentalists in the sense of loving the world, wanting clean air and water, wanting much industrial pollution stopped, enjoying gardening and traveling in nature. I suspect that most of that applies to you, no? And nearly everyone. And we are serious about it. I can't help it if some organizations do bad things in the name of environmentalism. But frankly, I would applaud if Greenpeace could sink every whaling ship on the planet. bill w > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Nov 18 18:21:58 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 12:21:58 -0600 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] NYTimes.com: Want to Save the Earth? We Need a Lot More Elon Musks. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am for every power source you mentioned and would add nuclear, which I think is by far our best option. Of course it just scares people who think it will explode like the Hiroshima bomb. I'll bet tricycles have killed more people than nuclear plants. Why is everything going off the deep and radical end? Where are the moderates in Washington or elsewhere? I am also a fan of GMOs. So if what you say is correct, I would fit in in no environmental organization extant. bill w On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 9:26 AM John Clark wrote: > On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 8:35 AM William Flynn Wallace > wrote: > > > frankly, I would applaud if Greenpeace could sink every whaling ship >> on the planet. > > > Me too. At one time Greenpeace was best known for harassing whaling ships > and I thought that was a brave and noble thing and I still do, years ago I > even donated money to them to help them do it, but later they seem to get > the ridiculous idea that some problems are so serious that we shouldn't > think logically about them. And I'm not the only one who believes that; > Patrick Moore is the guy who started Greenpeace but he was drummed out of > the organization he founded because he dared to suggest that maybe nuclear > power wasn't such a bad idea after all. > > > What matters to me are the billions of people who are environmentalists >> in the sense of loving the world, wanting clean air and water, wanting much >> industrial pollution stopped, enjoying gardening and traveling in nature. >> I suspect that most of that applies to you, no? >> > > Sure, and I'm for motherhood and apple pie too, but things only get > interesting when you get down to the nitty-gritty and start talking about > specifics. Environmentalists never met a power source they didn't hate. > They oppose geothermal power because it smells bad and causes earthquakes, > And wind power because it disrupts global wind patterns, is noisy, is ugly, > and kills cute little birds. And have deep reservations about solar power > because it's so dilute it requires vast tracts of land that is no doubt > environmentally sensitive. Environmentalists say there are just too many > people on this small planet so they seem to suggest that we should all just > freeze to death in the dark. > > * > **I am an environmentalist* > > > And at one time I called myself a libertarian, but the meanings of words > change with time and thanks largely to the disgraceful behavior of the > Libertarian Party I'd be embarrassed to call myself that today. In the > same way I am an environmentalist in the sense that Patrick > Moore originally use the word, not the way Greenpeace has debased it > today. > > John K Clark > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "extropolis" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv2%3Dxkg0RcRR%2BTScwmxrourOvqDzAZa_9zNB11S6kvq-yw%40mail.gmail.com > > . > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Nov 20 02:45:15 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 18:45:15 -0800 Subject: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: [image: I am Enough] *I am Enough* requested your answerHow can I stop my brain from creating limiting beliefs? Like I be on a chill and I get a blue pen to take notes then I end up using black because I have a bad feeling about the blue pen. This is really one for Spike. I can only imagine what he would do with it. I am just going to delete it and not dis the guy. bill w _______________________________________________ This somehow reminds me of the classic fantasy story, Or All the Seas with Oysters, by Avram Davidson. A question for Spike and others, are engineers a superstitious lot? John On Tue, Oct 12, 2021 at 12:50 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > [image: I am Enough] > *I am Enough* requested your answerHow can I stop my brain from creating > limiting beliefs? Like I be on a chill and I get a blue pen to take notes > then I end up using black because I have a bad feeling about the blue pen. > > > This > is really one for Spike. I can only imagine what he would do with it. I > am just going to delete it and not dis the guy. bill w > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Nov 20 02:50:36 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 18:50:36 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Does the Star Trek transporter kill people? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: BillK wrote: "Does Captain Kirk die when he goes through the transporter?" There was a great episode of The Outer Limits reboot called "Think Like A Dinosaur." Bill, if you have not already seen it, please track it down! You will not be disappointed... But it may freak you out... ; ) John On Mon, Oct 25, 2021 at 4:16 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 at 22:03, BillK via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Saturday, October 23, 2021 >> Does Captain Kirk die when he goes through the transporter? >> >> < >> https://backreaction.blogspot.com/2021/10/does-captain-kirk-die-when-he-goes.html >> > >> Quote: >> Does Captain Kirk die when he goes through the transporter? This >> question has kept me up at night for decades. I?m not kidding. And I >> still don?t have an answer. >> ------------------- >> >> This article and video (11 mins) discuss the problem. >> But the answer is still a matter of opinion. :) > > > This question used to be debated at great length in the old days of the > list. The answer is, Kirk survives. > >> -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Nov 20 03:21:34 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 19:21:34 -0800 Subject: [ExI] memo In-Reply-To: <53730341-20e9-aec6-0be4-0c2807fea9b5@zaiboc.net> References: <53730341-20e9-aec6-0be4-0c2807fea9b5@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Bill w wrote: To all family members Re: Jennie's brain. "Her sexual feelings will now trigger a feeling of being quite cold, the sexier the colder (the hotter the colder, get it?). This should strongly interfere with any sexual activity. I also paid for an app that will reset her appestat. She will effectively be on a diet, as she is getting rather chubby. You older folks need to be reassured that these changes can be reversed just by changing the program controlling the implants. Best wishes, Garcia Kwame Goldstein Now - what year is this? For the tech? For the moral implications?" I agree with Ben, except for his date. I would add twenty years, but he could be right. I have read a lot of science fiction over the course of my life, and also seen a number of documentaries about the evils of the Holocaust. And I continue to have a bad gut feeling that the worst horrors that humanity can unleash onto itself are still yet to come. I suspect that with the extremely advanced technologies of the centuries ahead, and with the huge populations that may exist, spread across the galaxy, that we will eventually see sadism and mass murder on a scale that Hitler, Stalin and Mao could only dream of in their most fiendish thoughts. But hopefully I will be wrong. I recall a novel where women are captured by slavers and electronically brainwashed so that they become extremely willing sex slaves. And once the process was done, it was essentially impossible to reverse. Unless humanity changes a great deal, such a technology would be embraced by criminal cartels around the planet and beyond. Another dark technology was from the Gene Wolfe "Book of the New Sun" series. A device could plant an order into a human brain, which at first felt like a mere tickle of an urge to tear one's eyes out of their head. But it grew over time, to the point where a month later, the strongest willed person would give in and rip out their own eyes! And these two examples are merely drops in the bucket of future potential human cruelty. John On Sun, Nov 7, 2021 at 2:18 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 07/11/2021 01:36, bill w wrote: > > > To all family members > Re: Jennie's brain. > > Her sexual feelings will now trigger a feeling of being quite cold, the > sexier the colder (the hotter the colder, get it?). This should strongly > interfere with any sexual activity. > > I also paid for an app that will reset her appestat. She will effectively > be on a diet, as she is getting rather chubby. > > You older folks need to be reassured that these changes can be reversed > just by changing the program controlling the implants. > > Best wishes, > Garcia Kwame Goldstein > > Now - what year is this? For the tech? For the moral implications? > > > Heh, that's easy. > > For the tech., say 2045. > > For the morality, that depends what culture you live in. If Islam is still > around then, say 2045 (or any earlier year, of course) in an islamic > theocracy. In a Chinese communist dictatorship, any time at all. In the > west generally, maybe 1845. > > Ben > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Nov 20 03:39:10 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 19:39:10 -0800 Subject: [ExI] today's news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: bill w wrote: "Let's punish the winners." "All across the country school systems are either closing down talented and gifted programs or considering doing so. Problem? The wrong people are benefitting. If this were a puzzle you'd have the answer now, right? The programs are racist. That is the conclusion. How did they get to that conclusion? Consequentialism. By definition, according to this kind of moral thinking, anything that results in racial imbalances is racist. From that perspective, they are right. And for political reasons they are closing programs that benefit Asians and whites (incidentally giving more support to white supremacists). These are smart people. They know that no program of any kind will result in racial balances - or gender balances, for that matter. (Progressive - "Oh, if only people were all the same." other Progressive "But they are!") We are in a politically correct age and there is nothing we can do about it. Or is there? The gifted and talented will succeed anyway in all probability. The only real victims here are people who want our society to be run rationally." I worry that this will weaken American society as a whole, during a time when we are in a clash of the titans rivalry with China. They probably set the example in terms of nose to the grindstone, and detecting the brightest students for elite programs to develop their full potentials. I'm concerned that if America does not get its act together, that over the next thirty years, China will eat our lunch and take our place as the dominant global power. It just blows my mind how much progress they made in the last twenty years. John On Mon, Nov 1, 2021 at 8:19 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > "Let's punish the winners." > > All across the country school systems are either closing down talented and > gifted programs or considering doing so. > > Problem? The wrong people are benefitting. If this were a puzzle you'd > have the answer now, right? > > The programs are racist. That is the conclusion. How did they get to > that conclusion? Consequentialism. By definition, according to this kind > of moral thinking, anything that results in racial imbalances is racist. > From that perspective, they are right. And for political reasons they are > closing programs that benefit Asians and whites (incidentally giving more > support to white supremacists). > > These are smart people. They know that no program of any kind will result > in racial balances - or gender balances, for that matter. (Progressive - > "Oh, if only people were all the same." other Progressive "But they are!") > > We are in a politically correct age and there is nothing we can do about > it. Or is there? > > The gifted and talented will succeed anyway in all probability. The only > real victims here are people who want our society to be run rationally. > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Nov 19 11:38:11 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 11:38:11 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Galapagos tortoise genome reveals secrets to long, cancer-free lives Message-ID: Live long and prosper: Study examines genetic gems in Gal?pagos giant tortoise genomes These big turtles have extra copies of genes that may help them age well and evade cancer, and the creatures? cells respond to stress in ways that may help to prevent disease, scientists conclude. By Charlotte Hsu Release Date: November 18, 2021 Quotes: Gal?pagos giant tortoises can weigh well over 300 pounds and often live over 100 years. So what?s the secret to their evolutionary success? A new study concludes that compared with other turtles, these animals evolved to have extra copies of genes ? called duplications ? that may protect against the ravages of aging, including cancer. Specifically, experiments showed that the creatures? cells are super sensitive to certain types of stress relating to damaged proteins. When exposed to these pressures, the cells self-destruct much more readily than other turtle cells through a process called apoptosis, the research found. ?In the lab, we can stress the cells out in ways that are associated with aging and see how well they resist that distress. And it turns out that the Gal?pagos tortoise cells are really, really good at killing themselves before that stress has a chance to cause diseases like cancer,? says Lynch, PhD, associate professor of biological sciences in the UB College of Arts and Sciences. ------------------------ Apoptosos - is a form of programmed cell death that occurs in multicellular organisms. That sounds like a useful technique to extend healthy lifetime. Store a copy of healthy cells and when cells show signs of damage due to aging, replace the damaged cells with copies of the original healthy cells. Easier said than done, of course. But in the future......... BillK From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Nov 20 03:41:53 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 19:41:53 -0800 Subject: [ExI] cycle 25 showing some early promise In-Reply-To: <006c01d7cd9d$32dfdb50$989f91f0$@rainier66.com> References: <006c01d7cd9d$32dfdb50$989f91f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: What are the odds of a monstrous solar flare taking out modern civilization within the next fifty years? In a way, it could be far worse than a pandemic... John On Sat, Oct 30, 2021 at 7:51 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > Hey cool, solar cycle 25 is giving us some early indications of being > worthwhile. The monthly average for September was way up there. > > > > If you are into this kinda thing, you know that cycle 24 was kind of a > dud. This caused me to worry we were going into a Maunder minimum which is > thought to have some connection to the Little Ice Age from about the mid > 1600s to about early 17s. We don?t want another one of those. > > > > Furthermore? sunspots are correlated with f10.7 cm radiation, which > expands the upper atmosphere, sweeping out low earth orbit. > > > > So if one is in the satellite biz and does his EM shielding correctly, > 10.7 cm radiation is our friend. > > > > Check it out: > > > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 37385 bytes Desc: not available URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Nov 20 04:01:10 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 20:01:10 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Does the Star Trek transporter kill people? In-Reply-To: References: <1af2a209-5c1b-0bf4-6bd8-36df6f1c0147@zaiboc.net> <008f01d7cc5e$98aaee10$ca00ca30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Gabe Waggoner wrote: "Either way, Krauss's _The Physics of Star Trek_ pretty much convinced me that transporters will be forever fictional, however cool they are conceptually." I did not realize Krauss wrote that book! Lol I have a close friend who felt royally screwed over by Krauss while in his physics doctoral program. Upon learning that his wife and the mother of his children was cheating on him and leaving, he could no longer concentrate on his studies, and so requested time off so he could grieve and get his head on straight. Krauss said no, absolutely not, and that basically bad things happen in life and you cannot let them affect your work. I was floored that my buddy was treated this way. Is this common treatment/policy from public universities? Despite this, my friend at least had his masters in physics, and got to work on an upgrade project for the MRI body scanner, which I thought was very cool. John On Sat, Oct 30, 2021 at 6:24 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Oct 29, 2021 at 2:56 AM BillK via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> If the copying can be done without destroying the original, then the >> transporter becomes a factory 3D printer creating unlimited copies of >> anything. > > > Notice the replicators that transporters eventually evolved into. Though, > "without destroying the original" was the trick they needed to perfect > first. > > >> This seems to me to be unlikely, as the inventor could fill >> the world with copies of him/herself. Not a problem for Spike, of >> course, but I can see how some people would consider this to be a >> problem. :) >> > > The inventor could do a thing that most inventors would not want to do - > but the inventor is not forced to do it. I fail to see how this is a > problem. > > The inventor of a gun could commit suicide with it, but most inventors > would not want to. This has not stopped guns from being invented. > > >> A scanner with this level of detail must also be able to be used for >> medical purposes. Removing cancer cells, tumors, cosmetic blemishes, >> etc. Probably the first use, before transportation. >> > > And notice the early transporters in Star Trek: Enterprise. Bulk matter, > where losing a higher percentage of the underlying matter was tolerable, > was transported long before living beings. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Nov 20 04:06:27 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 20:06:27 -0800 Subject: [ExI] the latest on multitasking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm a sucker for self-improvement books, and the latest trend/subject is on how to properly focus, and cut out all of the clutter/distractions! Lol In college I hated it when my roommates would listen to music during study time, and now this gives me understanding why my brain was complaining. John On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 10:22 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > No one can do it. To show that it can, a subject has to be as good on the > two tasks when done together as they are when doing each separately. Women > are not better at it than men, and both are bad. > > Why? Try listening to music, something a lot of people do when studying > or working, and not miss a measure while doing your work at the same > level. Can't be done. Yeah, your brain can shut out the music, but even > that takes brain inhibitory power and you aren't actually doing both > things. > > Amazon has quite a few books on concentration, which you don't need. It's > a matter of cutting the clutter out. So turn off the TV, stereo, radio, > pull those plugs out of your iPods and ears and actually pay 100% attention > to what you are doing. Or try listening to your music without doing > anything else. You will hear things you never heard before. You just > might surprise yourself at how much quality work you can do now.. bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Nov 20 04:15:49 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 20:15:49 -0800 Subject: [ExI] More Robots - Fewer Boring Jobs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: BillK wrote: "Corporations exporting jobs to China has kept US wages low. Great idea for the managers. But when unemployed support payments are similar to low wages people won't bother working boring low-wage jobs. Reducing support payments won't force people back to boring jobs either. The rich managers will face millions of people in rebellions and riots so the support payments to the masses will have to continue. It looks like the pandemic has started the age of universal basic income paying the masses to sit at home and watch TV." This makes me think of the Iain Banks Culture series, where the basic income "drones" live lives of leisure, and most people say they are an "artist" of some kind. But still many people seek out education and careers, for status and power. And the godlike A.I's run things from the shadows, letting the humans think they are fully in charge. But we are still far from such a supposed golden age. John On Tue, Nov 9, 2021 at 5:28 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Rise of the Robots Speeds Up in Pandemic With U.S. Labor Scarce > Alexandre Tanzi 6 Nov 2021 > > < > https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/rise-of-the-robots-speeds-up-in-pandemic-with-us-labor-scarce/ar-AAQogdr > > > > Quotes: > Labor shortages and rising wages are pushing U.S. business to invest > in automation. A recent Federal Reserve survey of chief financial > officers found that at firms with difficulty hiring, one-third are > implementing or exploring automation to replace workers. > > Some economists have warned that automation could make America?s > income and wealth gaps worse. > > ?If it continues, labor demand will grow slowly, inequality will > increase, and the prospects for many low-education workers will not be > very good,? says Daron Acemoglu, a professor at the Massachusetts > Institute of Technology, who testified Wednesday at a Senate hearing > on the issue. > ----------------------- > > Corporations exporting jobs to China has kept US wages low. Great idea > for the managers. But when unemployed support payments are similar to > low wages people won't bother working boring low-wage jobs. Reducing > support payments won't force people back to boring jobs either. The > rich managers will face millions of people in rebellions and riots so > the support payments to the masses will have to continue. > It looks like the pandemic has started the age of universal basic income > paying the masses to sit at home and watch TV. > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Nov 20 04:38:29 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 20:38:29 -0800 Subject: [ExI] totalitarian techniques In-Reply-To: References: <7b57b8a0-f04c-d72c-e226-319659a8707a@zaiboc.net> <000001d7d7c2$9a3152f0$ce93f8d0$@rainier66.com> <009601d7d7da$a956f650$fc04e2f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: bill w wrote: "American tends to view other countries as friends or enemies. We like to think that it is better to be cautious and treat someone as an enemy until they prove to be a friend. That is overly cautious. While we must remain on guard that a friend or neutral could become an enemy, we may be missing opportunities for an enemy to become a friend. If someone kept treating you as an enemy, what would you do or think? China could be the best friend we ever had. (Maybe it would help if we quit telling them how to run their country, esp. since we are far from blameless..) Love your enemies, the Bible says. Freud said that that was the hardest thing for anyone to do. Impossible, he said. I think not." In time China could become a true ally of America, but until their totalitarian government "mellows out," and stops doing things like organ harvesting, execution of political prisoners, taking civil liberties away from Hong Kong (and their own people), plotting to conquer Taiwan, bullying their neighbors, massive espionage/technology theft against the west, policies that allow viruses to escape their borders and kill millions, cyber attacks, a huge arms build-up to be the greatest military power in the world, etc.,. it just is not going to happen. And if these outrages continue, then yes, we should continue telling them how to run their country. Yes, we can love the people of China, unfortunately saddled by a mafia-like government which rules them, and we do that by standing up to it. They are bullies, and they only understand shows of strength. I realize over the next century China will most likely only get stronger, in time probably having an economy twice our size, and so America has as its greatest ever challenge, coming to terms with China and helping to shape them into a society that respects civil liberties in their own nation, and across the globe. And that can also peacefully share power and dominance with America, without a cold war always happening. John On Fri, Nov 12, 2021 at 7:54 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Like the Japanese, the Chinese are a very proud people. They have been > dominated by the Japanese to a certain extent and that motivates them. I > think they are embarrassed that their country has lagged behind the West > and Japan and now Korea, and they are desperate to catch up. They will > burn coal or do whatever it takes to catch up. This is not time to > hamstring your own efforts, they must think. > > Maybe they will moderate some of their stances when they do - we can only > hope so. Their success at feeding their people has been extraordinary. > > American tends to view other countries as friends or enemies. We like to > think that it is better to be cautious and treat someone as an enemy until > they prove to be a friend. That is overly cautious. While we must remain > on guard that a friend or neutral could become an enemy, we may be missing > opportunities for an enemy to become a friend. If someone kept treating > you as an enemy, what would you do or think? > > China could be the best friend we ever had. (Maybe it would help if we > quit telling them how to run their country, esp. since we are far from > blameless..) > > Love your enemies, the Bible says. Freud said that that was the hardest > thing for anyone to do. Impossible, he said. I think not. bill w > > > > On Fri, Nov 12, 2021 at 9:36 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf >> Of *BillK via extropy-chat >> *Sent:* Friday, November 12, 2021 5:13 AM >> *To:* ExI chat list >> *Cc:* BillK >> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] totalitarian techniques >> >> >> >> On Fri, 12 Nov 2021 at 12:44, spike jones via extropy-chat >> >>? We should be using market forces to do that. So far, markets >> haven?t chosen that as a high priority. >> > >> > spike >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> >> >?Fighting climate change has to be tackled at government level to pass >> laws that apply to all companies. >> >> >?But it is not going to happen. The next generation will have to >> survive as best they can. >> >> >> >> >> >> Ja. The fact that companies cannot compete if they spend their capital >> fighting climate change scales up to any company of any size. It isn?t a >> big leap of intuition to recognize that if a company is the size of a >> nation, that same principle still applies, and if we want to view nations >> as competing companies (they are, in a sense) then nations cannot compete >> with other nations if they spend their capital fighting climate change. >> >> >> >> The biggest player in all this (China) isn?t playing, not even trying. >> They have no intentions of fighting climate change. Their company strategy >> is to out-compete the other nations economically with a long-range vision >> of taking over the African continent, replacing the people who live there >> now with their own, living with climate change. >> >> >> >> spike >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Nov 19 13:55:35 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 05:55:35 -0800 Subject: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00a501d7dd4d$206af620$6140e260$@rainier66.com> I am Enough requested your answer How can I stop my brain from creating limiting beliefs? Like I be on a chill and I get a blue pen to take notes then I end up using black because I have a bad feeling about the blue pen. This is really one for Spike. I can only imagine what he would do with it. I am just going to delete it and not dis the guy. bill w _______________________________________________ Well I can give it my best shot. There are home tests I understand, or go to one of the free testing places that are now common, as a first step. Often with this particular symptom, there is a measurable fever associated with the common immune system reaction, so have the means on hand in the medicine cabinet to check that. If it is a cold or seasonal flu, I would recommend aspirin and bedrest, plenty of fluids, etc until the chill and associated symptoms abate. Regarding the pens: I often have a similar experience, but I have found an effective way to deal with it. We seldom use pens in our times, for most communication is done with a keyboard. But a place where the keyboard is often unavailable is in the car. So we carry with us the time-honored but mostly obsolete sticky pad and pens in the pistol box. Greenhouse effect and global warming cause the pens to reach a high temperature, in many cases resulting in their being unreliable, which is thought to be the underlying cause for general bad feelings about pens. I suggest carrying pencils in the car, and carrying only your least valuable pistol in there for the heat isn?t good for those either. Then your limiting beliefs will diminish with time as your memory of ever having used pens will gradually fade. Regarding only being able to imagine what I will do with the question, now you don?t need to only imagine. Regarding deleting the question: too late for that. Regarding dis the guy, I have long puzzled over that particular popular saying. Why the heck would I am Enough include the negation of the verb then neglect to specify what he or she will not do? Will he or she not disrobe the me? Ummm? OK good, thanks. Not disassemble the guy? Sure. Not disintegrate? Reminds one of the time Bugs was trying to stop Marvin the Martian from disintegrating the earth in the classic Hare-way to the Stars. I have never heard of this I am Enough character, but I do request further clarification of what it is he or she planning to not do to me. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 368 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Nov 19 14:02:33 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 06:02:33 -0800 Subject: [ExI] cycle 25 showing some early promise In-Reply-To: References: <006c01d7cd9d$32dfdb50$989f91f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00ad01d7dd4e$1a05bc10$4e113430$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Grigg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] cycle 25 showing some early promise What are the odds of a monstrous solar flare taking out modern civilization within the next fifty years? In a way, it could be far worse than a pandemic... John Very low. We have already developed satellites capable of withstanding radiation levels orders of magnitude higher than any solar flare will produce. We can see a coronal mass ejection in advance, which is why we know it is coming. We can shield power lines if necessary, or add the requisite capacitance to deal with it. We would focus our attention on that for a while rather than the pointless problems on which we have been distracted recently perhaps. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Nov 19 14:58:16 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 08:58:16 -0600 Subject: [ExI] More Robots - Fewer Boring Jobs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In Iain Banks 'Excession' we find AIs, ship's Minds, in conflict, and one is a traitor. So, many things won't be that different when they take over most of our tasks. They will dispute and fight just like we do. bill w On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 6:15 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > BillK wrote: > "Corporations exporting jobs to China has kept US wages low. Great idea > for the managers. But when unemployed support payments are similar to > low wages people won't bother working boring low-wage jobs. Reducing > support payments won't force people back to boring jobs either. The > rich managers will face millions of people in rebellions and riots so > the support payments to the masses will have to continue. > It looks like the pandemic has started the age of universal basic income > paying the masses to sit at home and watch TV." > > This makes me think of the Iain Banks Culture series, where the basic > income "drones" live lives of leisure, and most people say they are an > "artist" of some kind. But still many people seek out education and > careers, for status and power. And the godlike A.I's run things from the > shadows, letting the humans think they are fully in charge. But we are > still far from such a supposed golden age. > > John > > On Tue, Nov 9, 2021 at 5:28 AM BillK via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Rise of the Robots Speeds Up in Pandemic With U.S. Labor Scarce >> Alexandre Tanzi 6 Nov 2021 >> >> < >> https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/rise-of-the-robots-speeds-up-in-pandemic-with-us-labor-scarce/ar-AAQogdr >> > >> >> Quotes: >> Labor shortages and rising wages are pushing U.S. business to invest >> in automation. A recent Federal Reserve survey of chief financial >> officers found that at firms with difficulty hiring, one-third are >> implementing or exploring automation to replace workers. >> >> Some economists have warned that automation could make America?s >> income and wealth gaps worse. >> >> ?If it continues, labor demand will grow slowly, inequality will >> increase, and the prospects for many low-education workers will not be >> very good,? says Daron Acemoglu, a professor at the Massachusetts >> Institute of Technology, who testified Wednesday at a Senate hearing >> on the issue. >> ----------------------- >> >> Corporations exporting jobs to China has kept US wages low. Great idea >> for the managers. But when unemployed support payments are similar to >> low wages people won't bother working boring low-wage jobs. Reducing >> support payments won't force people back to boring jobs either. The >> rich managers will face millions of people in rebellions and riots so >> the support payments to the masses will have to continue. >> It looks like the pandemic has started the age of universal basic income >> paying the masses to sit at home and watch TV. >> >> BillK >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Nov 19 15:57:09 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 07:57:09 -0800 Subject: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day In-Reply-To: <00a501d7dd4d$206af620$6140e260$@rainier66.com> References: <00a501d7dd4d$206af620$6140e260$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: "dis" is short for "disrespect" or "insult", though in a lesser way (thus the shortening). As to the question itself - go with it if it's not a major thing. In the situation presented, there is no consequence to using blue vs. black ink. If there is a consequence or importance, that very consequence or importance can be used to limit the limiting belief. Otherwise, it doesn't seem worth wasting the brainpower to fight. On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 5:57 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > [image: Image removed by sender. I am Enough] > > *I am Enough* requested your answer*How can I stop my brain from creating > limiting beliefs? Like I be on a chill and I get a blue pen to take notes > then I end up using black because I have a bad feeling about the blue pen.* > > > *This > is really one for Spike. I can only imagine what he would do with it. I > am just going to delete it and not dis the guy. bill w* > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Well I can give it my best shot. There are home tests I understand, or go > to one of the free testing places that are now common, as a first step. > Often with this particular symptom, there is a measurable fever associated > with the common immune system reaction, so have the means on hand in the > medicine cabinet to check that. If it is a cold or seasonal flu, I would > recommend aspirin and bedrest, plenty of fluids, etc until the chill and > associated symptoms abate. > > > > Regarding the pens: I often have a similar experience, but I have found an > effective way to deal with it. We seldom use pens in our times, for most > communication is done with a keyboard. But a place where the keyboard is > often unavailable is in the car. So we carry with us the time-honored but > mostly obsolete sticky pad and pens in the pistol box. Greenhouse effect > and global warming cause the pens to reach a high temperature, in many > cases resulting in their being unreliable, which is thought to be the > underlying cause for general bad feelings about pens. I suggest carrying > pencils in the car, and carrying only your least valuable pistol in there > for the heat isn?t good for those either. Then your limiting beliefs will > diminish with time as your memory of ever having used pens will gradually > fade. > > > > Regarding only being able to imagine what I will do with the question, now > you don?t need to only imagine. Regarding deleting the question: too late > for that. Regarding dis the guy, I have long puzzled over that particular > popular saying. Why the heck would I am Enough include the negation of the > verb then neglect to specify what he or she will not do? Will he or she > not disrobe the me? Ummm? OK good, thanks. Not disassemble the guy? > Sure. Not disintegrate? Reminds one of the time Bugs was trying to stop > Marvin the Martian from disintegrating the earth in the classic Hare-way to > the Stars. I have never heard of this I am Enough character, but I do > request further clarification of what it is he or she planning to not do to > me. > > > > spike > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 368 bytes Desc: not available URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Nov 19 16:03:32 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 10:03:32 -0600 Subject: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day In-Reply-To: <00a501d7dd4d$206af620$6140e260$@rainier66.com> References: <00a501d7dd4d$206af620$6140e260$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Absolutely add zinc. It is best if you suck on it and let it trickle down your throat - local effect on your throat. And why in this age of high tech can't they make pens that start writing when you put pen to paper? bill w On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 7:57 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > [image: Image removed by sender. I am Enough] > > *I am Enough* requested your answer*How can I stop my brain from creating > limiting beliefs? Like I be on a chill and I get a blue pen to take notes > then I end up using black because I have a bad feeling about the blue pen.* > > > *This > is really one for Spike. I can only imagine what he would do with it. I > am just going to delete it and not dis the guy. bill w* > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Well I can give it my best shot. There are home tests I understand, or go > to one of the free testing places that are now common, as a first step. > Often with this particular symptom, there is a measurable fever associated > with the common immune system reaction, so have the means on hand in the > medicine cabinet to check that. If it is a cold or seasonal flu, I would > recommend aspirin and bedrest, plenty of fluids, etc until the chill and > associated symptoms abate. > > > > Regarding the pens: I often have a similar experience, but I have found an > effective way to deal with it. We seldom use pens in our times, for most > communication is done with a keyboard. But a place where the keyboard is > often unavailable is in the car. So we carry with us the time-honored but > mostly obsolete sticky pad and pens in the pistol box. Greenhouse effect > and global warming cause the pens to reach a high temperature, in many > cases resulting in their being unreliable, which is thought to be the > underlying cause for general bad feelings about pens. I suggest carrying > pencils in the car, and carrying only your least valuable pistol in there > for the heat isn?t good for those either. Then your limiting beliefs will > diminish with time as your memory of ever having used pens will gradually > fade. > > > > Regarding only being able to imagine what I will do with the question, now > you don?t need to only imagine. Regarding deleting the question: too late > for that. Regarding dis the guy, I have long puzzled over that particular > popular saying. Why the heck would I am Enough include the negation of the > verb then neglect to specify what he or she will not do? Will he or she > not disrobe the me? Ummm? OK good, thanks. Not disassemble the guy? > Sure. Not disintegrate? Reminds one of the time Bugs was trying to stop > Marvin the Martian from disintegrating the earth in the classic Hare-way to > the Stars. I have never heard of this I am Enough character, but I do > request further clarification of what it is he or she planning to not do to > me. > > > > spike > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 368 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Nov 19 16:07:06 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 16:07:06 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Drop a Slinky - Watch what happens! Message-ID: Dangle a Slinky, then let it go. Think about it for a moment before you click on the gif below. Well, fancy that! :) BillK From spike at rainier66.com Fri Nov 19 16:14:12 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 08:14:12 -0800 Subject: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day In-Reply-To: References: <00a501d7dd4d$206af620$6140e260$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003701d7dd60$7e3720e0$7aa562a0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day >?"dis" is short for "disrespect" or "insult", though in a lesser way (thus the shortening). Ah. In that case, I shall un, for I am anti. We should all be more contra, for then we will not. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Nov 19 16:22:21 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 08:22:21 -0800 Subject: [ExI] memo In-Reply-To: References: <53730341-20e9-aec6-0be4-0c2807fea9b5@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 3:20 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I recall a novel where women are captured by slavers and electronically > brainwashed so that they become extremely willing sex slaves. And once the > process was done, it was essentially impossible to reverse. > > I recall a comic strip centered around that premise. "Syndicate Wars", I think it was. (Obviously, beware of NSFW if you look it up, though I recall it was far more nudity and gore than sexual anything.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Nov 19 16:37:54 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 08:37:54 -0800 Subject: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day In-Reply-To: <003701d7dd60$7e3720e0$7aa562a0$@rainier66.com> References: <00a501d7dd4d$206af620$6140e260$@rainier66.com> <003701d7dd60$7e3720e0$7aa562a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001201d7dd63$cd72e9c0$6858bd40$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Subject: RE: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day From: extropy-chat > On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day >>?"dis" is short for "disrespect" or "insult", though in a lesser way (thus the shortening). >?Ah. In that case, I shall un, for I am anti. We should all be more contra, for then we will not. spike This brings back discussions from long ago about prefix appropriation. Well? for that matter, the term appropriation, which in our times has become a kind of shorthand for the cultural variety. I oppose prefix appropriation, even though we can see it is thriving, much to my dismay. For instance, what do you think of when someone says ?they are all heteros.? I object to this. Those who prefer male-female sexual relations may not appropriate the term hetero. That is a prefix that we need to keep general. All prefixes and suffixes should be kept general and multi-purpose. We must start an affix rights movement, help reduce violence to grammar. Those who are unclear on the urgency should review the Newspeak section of Nineteen Eighty Four. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Nov 19 17:27:16 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 11:27:16 -0600 Subject: [ExI] totalitarian techniques In-Reply-To: References: <7b57b8a0-f04c-d72c-e226-319659a8707a@zaiboc.net> <000001d7d7c2$9a3152f0$ce93f8d0$@rainier66.com> <009601d7d7da$a956f650$fc04e2f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Does a more pugnacious tribe exist than Anglo Saxons? We are a fierce bunch. Maybe the differences among tribes are small. I dunno. The answer? Economics. Make starting a war with a trading partner a very poor choice for your people. Hurts your economy. (I never did understand why WWII helped us out of a depression - please advise unless complicated). Nothing is forever. The Chinese will eventually get rid of the totalitarian government. Who likes secret police and neighbors ratting on you? Who doesn't like the freedoms that we have. The more Chinese come over here and experience what we have, the more they will go back to China and tell everyone. bill w On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 6:38 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > bill w wrote: > "American tends to view other countries as friends or enemies. We like to > think that it is better to be cautious and treat someone as an enemy until > they prove to be a friend. That is overly cautious. While we must remain > on guard that a friend or neutral could become an enemy, we may be missing > opportunities for an enemy to become a friend. If someone kept treating > you as an enemy, what would you do or think? > > China could be the best friend we ever had. (Maybe it would help if we > quit telling them how to run their country, esp. since we are far from > blameless..) > > Love your enemies, the Bible says. Freud said that that was the hardest > thing for anyone to do. Impossible, he said. I think not." > > In time China could become a true ally of America, but until their > totalitarian government "mellows out," and stops doing things like organ > harvesting, execution of political prisoners, taking civil liberties away > from Hong Kong (and their own people), plotting to conquer Taiwan, bullying > their neighbors, massive espionage/technology theft against the west, > policies that allow viruses to escape their borders and kill millions, > cyber attacks, a huge arms build-up to be the greatest military power in > the world, etc.,. it just is not going to happen. And if these outrages > continue, then yes, we should continue telling them how to run their > country. > > Yes, we can love the people of China, unfortunately saddled by a > mafia-like government which rules them, and we do that by standing up to > it. They are bullies, and they only understand shows of strength. I realize > over the next century China will most likely only get stronger, in time > probably having an economy twice our size, and so America has as its > greatest ever challenge, coming to terms with China and helping to shape > them into a society that respects civil liberties in their own nation, and > across the globe. And that can also peacefully share power and dominance > with America, without a cold war always happening. > > John > > > > > On Fri, Nov 12, 2021 at 7:54 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Like the Japanese, the Chinese are a very proud people. They have been >> dominated by the Japanese to a certain extent and that motivates them. I >> think they are embarrassed that their country has lagged behind the West >> and Japan and now Korea, and they are desperate to catch up. They will >> burn coal or do whatever it takes to catch up. This is not time to >> hamstring your own efforts, they must think. >> >> Maybe they will moderate some of their stances when they do - we can only >> hope so. Their success at feeding their people has been extraordinary. >> >> American tends to view other countries as friends or enemies. We like to >> think that it is better to be cautious and treat someone as an enemy until >> they prove to be a friend. That is overly cautious. While we must remain >> on guard that a friend or neutral could become an enemy, we may be missing >> opportunities for an enemy to become a friend. If someone kept treating >> you as an enemy, what would you do or think? >> >> China could be the best friend we ever had. (Maybe it would help if we >> quit telling them how to run their country, esp. since we are far from >> blameless..) >> >> Love your enemies, the Bible says. Freud said that that was the hardest >> thing for anyone to do. Impossible, he said. I think not. bill w >> >> >> >> On Fri, Nov 12, 2021 at 9:36 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* extropy-chat *On >>> Behalf Of *BillK via extropy-chat >>> *Sent:* Friday, November 12, 2021 5:13 AM >>> *To:* ExI chat list >>> *Cc:* BillK >>> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] totalitarian techniques >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, 12 Nov 2021 at 12:44, spike jones via extropy-chat >>> >>? We should be using market forces to do that. So far, markets >>> haven?t chosen that as a high priority. >>> > >>> > spike >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> >?Fighting climate change has to be tackled at government level to pass >>> laws that apply to all companies. >>> >>> >?But it is not going to happen. The next generation will have to >>> survive as best they can. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Ja. The fact that companies cannot compete if they spend their capital >>> fighting climate change scales up to any company of any size. It isn?t a >>> big leap of intuition to recognize that if a company is the size of a >>> nation, that same principle still applies, and if we want to view nations >>> as competing companies (they are, in a sense) then nations cannot compete >>> with other nations if they spend their capital fighting climate change. >>> >>> >>> >>> The biggest player in all this (China) isn?t playing, not even trying. >>> They have no intentions of fighting climate change. Their company strategy >>> is to out-compete the other nations economically with a long-range vision >>> of taking over the African continent, replacing the people who live there >>> now with their own, living with climate change. >>> >>> >>> >>> spike >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Nov 19 17:42:57 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 11:42:57 -0600 Subject: [ExI] sex slaves Message-ID: Why do men want sex slaves? Well duh, they can't be turned down. We men are superior and women should do what we ask. Isn't that in the Bible? Actually it is. "Why won't women have sex with me? There's nothing wrong with me. And they would enjoy it! I'll show them" This is the tune of a rapist/wife beater. It starts as usual with the mother. Mother is often the person to tell kids what they can or can't do, and when they grow up they may want the roles reversed. So we have a mother complex here. Resentment, anger, retaliation, feelings of inferiority and more. With the right man, women can enjoy sex more than men can. But nature tells women to be picky - nothing more important than the father of their children, right? Me? I have never been turned down. Of course you have to ask first, and I have never asked. It, to me, is not a favor women do for men. It's mutual or it's something I won't do. Women can tell men nonverbally how far to go, and I have always stopped at that point. Men who want sex slaves (or even just men who have to be the boss) are pitiful examples of the male side of the human race. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Nov 19 17:45:25 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 11:45:25 -0600 Subject: [ExI] the latest on multitasking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have no doubt that focus/attention can be improved through training, though I don't know what that would consist of. I am a special case: I have tinnitus in both ears and have read that some people have committed suicide because of it. If I pay attention to it, it is very annoying. But most of the time I don't hear it at all - doesn't bother me. Right now I hear it because any stimulant, like my morning coffee makes it worse. Still not bothering me. I have read where there are pain clinics that deal with terrible pain that no drugs can touch. The idea is to teach the person how to live it. The further idea is that there is a difference between pain and suffering. Pain you cannot turn off, but apparently suffering can be. Some women go through childbirth only commenting on pressure, not pain. I would like to hear about your experience with self-improvement books. If they are like the seminars businesses put on to improve their employees, then you get a significant effect in changing behavior, but it only lasts about two weeks. First, I think you have to be able to ditch old habits and acquire new ones which last, and that is a big, big order to fill. bill w On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 6:07 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I'm a sucker for self-improvement books, and the latest trend/subject is > on how to properly focus, and cut out all of the clutter/distractions! Lol > > In college I hated it when my roommates would listen to music during study > time, and now this gives me understanding why my brain was complaining. > > John > > On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 10:22 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> No one can do it. To show that it can, a subject has to be as good on >> the two tasks when done together as they are when doing each separately. >> Women are not better at it than men, and both are bad. >> >> Why? Try listening to music, something a lot of people do when studying >> or working, and not miss a measure while doing your work at the same >> level. Can't be done. Yeah, your brain can shut out the music, but even >> that takes brain inhibitory power and you aren't actually doing both >> things. >> >> Amazon has quite a few books on concentration, which you don't need. >> It's a matter of cutting the clutter out. So turn off the TV, stereo, >> radio, pull those plugs out of your iPods and ears and actually pay 100% >> attention to what you are doing. Or try listening to your music without >> doing anything else. You will hear things you never heard before. You >> just might surprise yourself at how much quality work you can do now.. >> bill w >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Nov 19 17:52:00 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 11:52:00 -0600 Subject: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day In-Reply-To: <001201d7dd63$cd72e9c0$6858bd40$@rainier66.com> References: <00a501d7dd4d$206af620$6140e260$@rainier66.com> <003701d7dd60$7e3720e0$7aa562a0$@rainier66.com> <001201d7dd63$cd72e9c0$6858bd40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Ah, another language purist. I now have two. People will use language any way they want to - see the 400 additions to the Webster dictionary. You just can't stop it. And don't forget infixes. bill w On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 10:40 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* spike at rainier66.com > *Subject:* RE: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day > > > > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day > > > > >>?"dis" is short for "disrespect" or "insult", though in a lesser way > (thus the shortening). > > > > >?Ah. In that case, I shall un, for I am anti. We should all be more > contra, for then we will not. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > This brings back discussions from long ago about prefix appropriation. > Well? for that matter, the term appropriation, which in our times has > become a kind of shorthand for the cultural variety. I oppose prefix > appropriation, even though we can see it is thriving, much to my dismay. > > > > For instance, what do you think of when someone says ?they are all > heteros.? I object to this. Those who prefer male-female sexual relations > may not appropriate the term hetero. That is a prefix that we need to keep > general. All prefixes and suffixes should be kept general and > multi-purpose. We must start an affix rights movement, help reduce > violence to grammar. Those who are unclear on the urgency should review > the Newspeak section of Nineteen Eighty Four. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Nov 19 19:46:42 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 11:46:42 -0800 Subject: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day In-Reply-To: References: <00a501d7dd4d$206af620$6140e260$@rainier66.com> <003701d7dd60$7e3720e0$7aa562a0$@rainier66.com> <001201d7dd63$cd72e9c0$6858bd40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006f01d7dd7e$2d5ac460$88104d20$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Friday, November 19, 2021 9:52 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: Re: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day >?Ah, another language purist?. Billw, being a language purist is the easiest place of all to be a purist. In any other arena, to be a purist means one must be actually, literally, pure. Far easier it is to be an impurist. We even have a kind of socioreligious umbrella under which we shelter: Impuritanism. >?People will use language any way they want to - see the 400 additions to the Webster dictionary?. Eh, Webstah schmebstah. What does he know? He was kinda mildly entertaining when he was still a cute little kid, but it didn?t work after season 2 and Alex Karras didn?t really break thru into show biz. >? You just can't stop it? Ah, unnecessarily defeatist attitude Billw. Affix appropriation can be stopped! But we need more who believe it can be done. What this world needs is more featists. We can band together and even come up with a dismissive or derogatory term for those hopeless pessimists who whack off the adjective or verb from its modifier. We can call them the DEs. Then we make up corresponding missive or rogatory terms for ourselves. >?And don't forget infixes. bill w Ja. Those are a whole nother story. Infixes are my friends. I can guaranfreakingtee you, I will never neglect them. However I might still argue that walnuts and sunflower seeds should have been unpolysaturated fats to start with. The nutrition people followed the science rather than the grammar. All of this reminds me of the reason I have hung out here for nearly three tragically-squandered decades: the delightfully chaotic way in which memes replicate and mutate to form new species of mutant memes. One can toss any notion, sensible or absurd, into the swirling maelstrom of ideas. It is impossible to predict where it will go, like when one presses the handle and drops in the TP after having one of those where it goes plup plup plup about 20 times, as happens sometimes, and around it goes, unpredictably. This particular comparison may need some work, for in the cited case, it is very predictable where it will eventually go. Furthermore, the analogy will likely never be used in Reader?s Digest section ?Toward More Picturesque Speech.? But otherwise? it is like that sorta. spike w On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 10:40 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: From: spike at rainier66.com > Subject: RE: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day From: extropy-chat > On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day >>?"dis" is short for "disrespect" or "insult", though in a lesser way (thus the shortening). >?Ah. In that case, I shall un, for I am anti. We should all be more contra, for then we will not. spike This brings back discussions from long ago about prefix appropriation. Well? for that matter, the term appropriation, which in our times has become a kind of shorthand for the cultural variety. I oppose prefix appropriation, even though we can see it is thriving, much to my dismay. For instance, what do you think of when someone says ?they are all heteros.? I object to this. Those who prefer male-female sexual relations may not appropriate the term hetero. That is a prefix that we need to keep general. All prefixes and suffixes should be kept general and multi-purpose. We must start an affix rights movement, help reduce violence to grammar. Those who are unclear on the urgency should review the Newspeak section of Nineteen Eighty Four. spike _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Fri Nov 19 18:39:00 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 18:39:00 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Does the Star Trek transporter kill people? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2a516087-6bb2-5f5f-5302-984a56cba833@zaiboc.net> On 19/11/2021 15:57, John Grigg wrote: > I have a close friend who felt royally screwed over by Krauss while in > his physics doctoral program. Upon learning that his wife and the > mother of his children was cheating on him and leaving, he could no > longer concentrate on his studies, and so requested time off so he > could grieve and get his head on straight. Krauss said no, absolutely > not, and that basically bad things happen in life and you cannot let > them affect?your work. I was floored that my buddy was treated this > way. Is this common treatment/policy from public universities? > > Despite this, my friend at least had his masters in physics, and got > to work on an upgrade project for the MRI body scanner, which I > thought was very cool. When you say "despite this", do you perhaps mean "because of this"? Obviously Krauss realised that 'he could no longer concentrate on his studies' was incorrect, at least. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Nov 20 00:32:49 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 18:32:49 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Does the Star Trek transporter kill people? In-Reply-To: <2a516087-6bb2-5f5f-5302-984a56cba833@zaiboc.net> References: <2a516087-6bb2-5f5f-5302-984a56cba833@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: When you say "despite this", do you perhaps mean "because of this"? This is not what despite means. bill w On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 5:03 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 19/11/2021 15:57, John Grigg wrote: > > I have a close friend who felt royally screwed over by Krauss while in his > physics doctoral program. Upon learning that his wife and the mother of his > children was cheating on him and leaving, he could no longer concentrate on > his studies, and so requested time off so he could grieve and get his head > on straight. Krauss said no, absolutely not, and that basically bad things > happen in life and you cannot let them affect your work. I was floored that > my buddy was treated this way. Is this common treatment/policy from public > universities? > > Despite this, my friend at least had his masters in physics, and got to > work on an upgrade project for the MRI body scanner, which I thought was > very cool. > > When you say "despite this", do you perhaps mean "because of this"? > > Obviously Krauss realised that 'he could no longer concentrate on his > studies' was incorrect, at least. > > Ben > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Nov 20 01:17:26 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 19:17:26 -0600 Subject: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day In-Reply-To: <006f01d7dd7e$2d5ac460$88104d20$@rainier66.com> References: <00a501d7dd4d$206af620$6140e260$@rainier66.com> <003701d7dd60$7e3720e0$7aa562a0$@rainier66.com> <001201d7dd63$cd72e9c0$6858bd40$@rainier66.com> <006f01d7dd7e$2d5ac460$88104d20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Now what kind of purist uses 'sorta'? Maybe a confused one? I have been most of a purist. I remember fighting 'aggravate' as meaning angry or frustrated rather than its meaning of making something worse. That battle was lost long ago. I just say 'intensify'. Everybody caved on 'ain't. And most of everything else too. Dictionaries are books of usage, and that comes from the people, and they don't seem to be purists to me. But they swing the biggest weapons - popular usage. Of course we don't have to go along with them, but increasingly we will be unable to communicate with the followers of the fads. I, for instance, say 'application' rather than 'app'. Do you? I say 'feel that' rather than 'feel like'. Do you? As for 'sorta', I'll bet you also use 'kinda'. Right? I also say 'ghost poo' rather than 'packing peanuts'. Do you? Oh sorry, irrelevant example. Year ago Edwin Newman wrote several books on words which I enjoyed ('the ize have it'). I also communicated with James Kilpatrick over something - I forget what. Oh wait - it was over the use of words that are not amenable to qualification, like 'perfect' and 'unique'. Called absolute words. Fad usage has 'somewhat unique' or 'more unique' as acceptable. Not me. On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 1:49 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Friday, November 19, 2021 9:52 AM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day > > > > >?Ah, another language purist?. > > > > Billw, being a language purist is the easiest place of all to be a > purist. In any other arena, to be a purist means one must be actually, > literally, pure. Far easier it is to be an impurist. We even have a kind > of socioreligious umbrella under which we shelter: Impuritanism. > > > > >?People will use language any way they want to - see the 400 additions to > the Webster dictionary?. > > > > Eh, Webstah schmebstah. What does he know? He was kinda mildly > entertaining when he was still a cute little kid, but it didn?t work after > season 2 and Alex Karras didn?t really break thru into show biz. > > > > >? You just can't stop it? > > > > Ah, unnecessarily defeatist attitude Billw. Affix appropriation can be > stopped! But we need more who believe it can be done. What this world > needs is more featists. We can band together and even come up with a > dismissive or derogatory term for those hopeless pessimists who whack off > the adjective or verb from its modifier. We can call them the DEs. Then > we make up corresponding missive or rogatory terms for ourselves. > > > > >?And don't forget infixes. bill w > > > > Ja. Those are a whole nother story. Infixes are my friends. I can > guaranfreakingtee you, I will never neglect them. However I might still > argue that walnuts and sunflower seeds should have been unpolysaturated > fats to start with. The nutrition people followed the science rather than > the grammar. > > > > All of this reminds me of the reason I have hung out here for nearly three > tragically-squandered decades: the delightfully chaotic way in which memes > replicate and mutate to form new species of mutant memes. One can toss any > notion, sensible or absurd, into the swirling maelstrom of ideas. It is > impossible to predict where it will go, like when one presses the handle > and drops in the TP after having one of those where it goes plup plup plup > about 20 times, as happens sometimes, and around it goes, unpredictably. > This particular comparison may need some work, for in the cited case, it is > very predictable where it will eventually go. Furthermore, the analogy > will likely never be used in Reader?s Digest section ?Toward More > Picturesque Speech.? But otherwise? it is like that sorta. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > w > > > > On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 10:40 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *From:* spike at rainier66.com > *Subject:* RE: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day > > > > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day > > > > >>?"dis" is short for "disrespect" or "insult", though in a lesser way > (thus the shortening). > > > > >?Ah. In that case, I shall un, for I am anti. We should all be more > contra, for then we will not. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > This brings back discussions from long ago about prefix appropriation. > Well? for that matter, the term appropriation, which in our times has > become a kind of shorthand for the cultural variety. I oppose prefix > appropriation, even though we can see it is thriving, much to my dismay. > > > > For instance, what do you think of when someone says ?they are all > heteros.? I object to this. Those who prefer male-female sexual relations > may not appropriate the term hetero. That is a prefix that we need to keep > general. All prefixes and suffixes should be kept general and > multi-purpose. We must start an affix rights movement, help reduce > violence to grammar. Those who are unclear on the urgency should review > the Newspeak section of Nineteen Eighty Four. > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Nov 20 01:58:22 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 17:58:22 -0800 Subject: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day In-Reply-To: References: <00a501d7dd4d$206af620$6140e260$@rainier66.com> <003701d7dd60$7e3720e0$7aa562a0$@rainier66.com> <001201d7dd63$cd72e9c0$6858bd40$@rainier66.com> <006f01d7dd7e$2d5ac460$88104d20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003601d7ddb2$19878cf0$4c96a6d0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day >?Now what kind of purist uses 'sorta'? Maybe a confused one? >?As for 'sorta', I'll bet you also use 'kinda'. Ja. I wouldn?t put it in a tech paper, but rather I think of it as a phonetic spelling. These creep into language over time. After a while we get used to seeing them, and even the most reluctant among us will kinda accept it, as one of those vaguely annoying usages. How we talk eventually impacts how we spell. In the internet age, with the reply key, it is easy to do accidental misattributions. For this reason, having minor quirks in one?s writing style, such as using kinda sorta, and obsolete terms such as proles, constables, my bride, hipster, ja and so forth can serve as useful clues that it was the old spikester who wrote it, and perhaps prevent a later poster from being blamed for the silliness. Besides that, think of how much less annoying it is to hear the occasional kinda sorta rather than the universally annoying hackneyed and annoying ?like? inserted about every third word in teenspeak. I challenge my scouts to form sentences without using the term unless actually comparing two things, as in a simile. >?As for 'sorta', I'll bet you also use 'kinda'. Right Ja, far too often I fear. It is a character flaw, on which I have focused far too little effort to correct. >?I also say 'ghost poo' rather than 'packing peanuts'. Do you? Oh sorry, irrelevant example?. Oy vey, I have never heard either of these usages. So tragically not hip I am. I so need to get mod. >?Year ago Edwin Newman wrote several books on words which I enjoyed ('the ize have it')? I like Newman?s style too. >? words that are not amenable to qualification, like 'perfect'?. That one I excuse because of the phrase ??in order to form a more perfect union?? which is understood to mean working towards a perfect union while recognizing a perfect union can never exist. >?Called absolute words. Fad usage has 'somewhat unique' or 'more unique' as acceptable. Not me?. Ja, we know it means more rare, but it is possible to stretch a bit with some imagination. Currently Magnus Carlsen is unique in that he is the only player with a current classical chess rating over 2800, but he whooped ass at the FIDE World Cup in September so he rose into the high 2800s, making him in a sense even more unique. He is even uniquer than he was before the tournament and with that huuuuuge rating gap, he is now the uniquest chess player. Agreed, it is ugly, but my breezy commentary served to remind us of another of my stylistic quirks: emphasizing an adjective by replicating a vowel, the way we would speak it, as in the word huuuuuge above. The internet has corrupted us all, Billw. We are now all impuritans. Well? I am. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From guessmyneeds at yahoo.com Sat Nov 20 02:39:19 2021 From: guessmyneeds at yahoo.com (Sherry Knepper) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 02:39:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [Extropolis] NYTimes.com: Want to Save the Earth? We Need a Lot More Elon Musks. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <439976482.284823.1637375959991@mail.yahoo.com> Extract the whalers and incarcerated them.? ?Incarcerate them to hard labor,, either physical or mental work to pay those who worked to extract them. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 8:42 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: What matters to me are the billions of people who are environmentalists in the sense of loving the world, wanting clean air and water, wanting much industrial pollution stopped, enjoying gardening and traveling in nature.? I suspect that most of that applies to you, no?? And nearly everyone.? And we are serious about it.? I can't help it if some organizations do bad things in the name of environmentalism.? But frankly, I would applaud if Greenpeace?could sink every whaling ship on the planet.? bill w _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat Nov 20 03:01:26 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 19:01:26 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Does the Star Trek transporter kill people? In-Reply-To: References: <2a516087-6bb2-5f5f-5302-984a56cba833@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: No, it's legit. "Despite" the obstacles that John's friend encountered, he got his degree. On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 4:34 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > When you say "despite this", do you perhaps mean "because of this"? This > is not what despite means. bill w > > On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 5:03 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On 19/11/2021 15:57, John Grigg wrote: >> >> I have a close friend who felt royally screwed over by Krauss while in >> his physics doctoral program. Upon learning that his wife and the mother of >> his children was cheating on him and leaving, he could no longer >> concentrate on his studies, and so requested time off so he could grieve >> and get his head on straight. Krauss said no, absolutely not, and that >> basically bad things happen in life and you cannot let them affect your >> work. I was floored that my buddy was treated this way. Is this common >> treatment/policy from public universities? >> >> Despite this, my friend at least had his masters in physics, and got to >> work on an upgrade project for the MRI body scanner, which I thought was >> very cool. >> >> When you say "despite this", do you perhaps mean "because of this"? >> >> Obviously Krauss realised that 'he could no longer concentrate on his >> studies' was incorrect, at least. >> >> Ben >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Nov 20 13:14:42 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 13:14:42 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Language usage Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Nov 2021 at 02:01, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day > > > >?I also say 'ghost poo' rather than 'packing peanuts'. Do you? Oh sorry, irrelevant example?bill w > > Oy vey, I have never heard either of these usages. So tragically not hip I am. I so need to get mod. > > spike > _______________________________________________ I'm with Spike. I haven't heard those terms used either. It took me a bit of puzzling to work out that (I think) William was referring to the loose-fill polystyrene protection you find inside Amazon boxes. Unfortunately, to the hip young folk these terms now mean something very different. To check the current scatological and sexual meanings (at your own risk!) click below - It is not only generations that change language; local dialect and society also changes language. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Sat Nov 20 13:38:06 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 05:38:06 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Language usage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000201d7de13$da1345c0$8e39d140$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Language usage On Sat, 20 Nov 2021 at 02:01, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day > > > >?I also say 'ghost poo' rather than 'packing peanuts'. Do you? Oh > >sorry, irrelevant example?bill w > _______________________________________________ >...I'm with Spike. I haven't heard those terms used either. It took me a bit of puzzling to work out that (I think) William was referring to the loose-fill polystyrene protection you find inside Amazon boxes. ... BillK _______________________________________________ Fortunately I think those are nearly extinct now. When people dumped them in the trash and the truck came on a windy day, they would blow all over the neighborhood. They don't break down, or if so, not in this particular lifetime, so they all must be picked up individually. They tried making them out of rice, but oh what a sticky mess if they get wet. If they get loose in the hood when it is raining, it is an even bigger mess than the styro peanuts. I have gotten stuff packed in popcorn, which looks to me like a good answer: the birds and squirrels will eat it. I do like the most recent trend: a lot of electronic devices are all solid state so they can take a lot of impact. Then those liter packing pillows will work, which is cool because popping them is even more satisfying than the old bubble wrap: fewer but bigger pops. Most entertaining for they can be dual purposed: one can put them under his bride's tires and such. Oh mercy, I sooo need to get a life. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Nov 20 14:56:48 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 08:56:48 -0600 Subject: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day In-Reply-To: <003601d7ddb2$19878cf0$4c96a6d0$@rainier66.com> References: <00a501d7dd4d$206af620$6140e260$@rainier66.com> <003701d7dd60$7e3720e0$7aa562a0$@rainier66.com> <001201d7dd63$cd72e9c0$6858bd40$@rainier66.com> <006f01d7dd7e$2d5ac460$88104d20$@rainier66.com> <003601d7ddb2$19878cf0$4c96a6d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: It should have been 'a more nearly perfect union'. My wife is a very understanding person who knows me well. I could introduce her as 'the little woman' or anything that might be offensive to many people, and she would just laugh. She would not do it, because it's not her style. But if it was, she could call me her 'old man' and I would not be offended even though I am eleven years older. Context is so important in how we use language. I am a big tease around students and office staff and they know that very well. No one with any sense would use language with strangers, with acquaintances, that one would use with friends and family. Let's have some perspective here. bill w On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 8:00 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day > > > > >?Now what kind of purist uses 'sorta'? Maybe a confused one? > > > > > > >?As for 'sorta', I'll bet you also use 'kinda'. > > > > Ja. I wouldn?t put it in a tech paper, but rather I think of it as a > phonetic spelling. These creep into language over time. After a while we > get used to seeing them, and even the most reluctant among us will kinda > accept it, as one of those vaguely annoying usages. How we talk eventually > impacts how we spell. > > > > In the internet age, with the reply key, it is easy to do accidental > misattributions. For this reason, having minor quirks in one?s writing > style, such as using kinda sorta, and obsolete terms such as proles, > constables, my bride, hipster, ja and so forth can serve as useful clues > that it was the old spikester who wrote it, and perhaps prevent a later > poster from being blamed for the silliness. > > > > Besides that, think of how much less annoying it is to hear the occasional > kinda sorta rather than the universally annoying hackneyed and annoying > ?like? inserted about every third word in teenspeak. I challenge my scouts > to form sentences without using the term unless actually comparing two > things, as in a simile. > > > > >?As for 'sorta', I'll bet you also use 'kinda'. Right > > > > Ja, far too often I fear. It is a character flaw, on which I have focused > far too little effort to correct. > > > > > > >?I also say 'ghost poo' rather than 'packing peanuts'. Do you? Oh > sorry, irrelevant example?. > > > > Oy vey, I have never heard either of these usages. So tragically not hip > I am. I so need to get mod. > > > > > > > > >?Year ago Edwin Newman wrote several books on words which I enjoyed > ('the ize have it')? > > > > I like Newman?s style too. > > > > >? words that are not amenable to qualification, like 'perfect'?. > > > > That one I excuse because of the phrase ??in order to form a more perfect > union?? which is understood to mean working towards a perfect union while > recognizing a perfect union can never exist. > > > > >?Called absolute words. Fad usage has 'somewhat unique' or 'more > unique' as acceptable. Not me?. > > > > Ja, we know it means more rare, but it is possible to stretch a bit with > some imagination. Currently Magnus Carlsen is unique in that he is the > only player with a current classical chess rating over 2800, but he whooped > ass at the FIDE World Cup in September so he rose into the high 2800s, > making him in a sense even more unique. He is even uniquer than he was > before the tournament and with that huuuuuge rating gap, he is now the > uniquest chess player. > > > > Agreed, it is ugly, but my breezy commentary served to remind us of > another of my stylistic quirks: emphasizing an adjective by replicating a > vowel, the way we would speak it, as in the word huuuuuge above. > > > > The internet has corrupted us all, Billw. We are now all impuritans. > Well? I am. > > > > spike > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sat Nov 20 22:52:14 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 22:52:14 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Does the Star Trek transporter kill people? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <516b8b58-ca8b-eb63-4743-0fecc1dcfc22@zaiboc.net> On 20/11/2021 14:57, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > No, it's legit.? "Despite" the obstacles that John's friend > encountered, he got his degree. > > On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 4:34 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > > wrote: > > When you say "despite this", do you perhaps mean "because of > this"? This is not what despite means.? ?bill w > Hm. What I'm suggesting is that perhaps if Krauss had acceded to his request, he may not have got his degree. And perhaps Krauss had experience of that happening. Hence his refusal. At the very least, he probably realised that the guy was capable of continuing his studies in spite of his problem. After all, in most cases, someone has a higher chance of getting a degree if they continue their studies uninterrupted than if they don't. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sun Nov 21 05:56:19 2021 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2021 06:56:19 +0100 Subject: [ExI] You are invited to the Terasem Colloquium on consciousness on Dec. 10 Message-ID: Turing Church newsletter. You are invited! Terasem Colloquium on Dec. 10. Susan Schneider, Randal Koene, Max More, Ken Hayworth, Gabriel Rothblatt, and Robert McIntyre will explore consciousness and how to preserve it. https://www.turingchurch.com/p/you-are-invited-terasem-colloquium From pharos at gmail.com Sun Nov 21 19:27:33 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2021 19:27:33 +0000 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Rolls-Royce=E2=80=99s_All_Electric_Aircraft_Worl?= =?utf-8?q?d_Speed_Record?= Message-ID: Rolls-Royce?s All Electric Aircraft Claims World Speed Record by Sumit Singh November 19, 2021 Rolls-Royce today shared that its all-electric plane has set three new world records. One of these achievements is that on November 16th, the Spirit of Innovation aircraft reached a top speed of 555.9 km/h (345.4 mph) over 3 km, surpassing the current record by 213.04 km/h (132 mph) to affirm itself as the world?s fastest all-electric vehicle. ----------------------------- Its design reminds me of the WWII Spitfire fighter. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Sun Nov 21 19:59:43 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2021 11:59:43 -0800 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Rolls-Royce=E2=80=99s_All_Electric_Aircraft_Worl?= =?utf-8?q?d_Speed_Record?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005f01d7df12$53dc7080$fb955180$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Rolls-Royce?s All Electric Aircraft World Speed Record Rolls-Royce?s All Electric Aircraft Claims World Speed Record by Sumit Singh November 19, 2021 >>...Rolls-Royce today shared that its all-electric plane has set three new world records. One of these achievements is that on November 16th, the Spirit of Innovation aircraft reached a top speed of 555.9 km/h (345.4 mph) over 3 km, surpassing the current record by 213.04 km/h (132 mph) to affirm itself as the world?s fastest all-electric vehicle. ----------------------------- >...Its design reminds me of the WWII Spitfire fighter. BillK _______________________________________________ Cool very impressive, thx BillK. Note that the Brits had the Spitfires flying for four years before the Yanks quit fooling with those stodgy old radial engines and got busy with the P51 Mustang, which used a British Rolls Royce V12 design very similar to the Spit. The Brits have always been good at making stuff look cool too. Note pretty much all British cars. There is plenty of market for short-hop flights, particularly with these quieter designs, such as hauling corporate biggies around a metro area. Looks to me like an electric plane would be more forgiving on short notice flights: electric motors have fewer single-point failures compared to any IC motor. spike From guessmyneeds at yahoo.com Mon Nov 22 02:15:53 2021 From: guessmyneeds at yahoo.com (Sherry Knepper) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 02:15:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] Does the Star Trek transporter kill people? In-Reply-To: References: <1af2a209-5c1b-0bf4-6bd8-36df6f1c0147@zaiboc.net> <008f01d7cc5e$98aaee10$ca00ca30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <346994435.1869612.1637547353630@mail.yahoo.com> I don't know if all public universities are like that but my college, Goddard College in Vermont, although very e pensive is nontraditional and I'd be surprised if they would be so inflexible.? However I don't know if Goddard now offers a doctorate. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 7:05 AM, John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote: Gabe Waggoner wrote:"Either way, Krauss's _The Physics of Star Trek_ pretty much convinced me that transporters will be forever fictional, however cool they are conceptually." I did not realize Krauss wrote that book! Lol? I have a close friend who felt royally screwed over by Krauss while in his physics doctoral program. Upon learning that his wife and the mother of his children was cheating on him and leaving, he could no longer concentrate on his studies, and so requested time off so he could grieve and get his head on straight. Krauss said no, absolutely not, and that basically bad things happen in life and you cannot let them affect?your work. I was floored that my buddy was treated this way. Is this common treatment/policy from public universities?? Despite this, my friend at least had his masters in physics, and got to work on an upgrade project for the MRI body scanner, which I thought was very cool.? John? On Sat, Oct 30, 2021 at 6:24 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: On Fri, Oct 29, 2021 at 2:56 AM BillK via extropy-chat wrote: If the copying can be done without destroying the original, then the transporter becomes a factory 3D printer creating unlimited copies of anything. Notice the replicators that transporters eventually evolved into.? Though, "without destroying the original" was the trick they needed to perfect first.? This seems to me to be unlikely, as the inventor could fill the world with copies of him/herself. Not a problem for Spike, of course, but I can see how some people would consider this to be a problem.? :) The inventor could do a thing that most inventors would not want to do - but the inventor is not forced to do it.? I fail to see how this is a problem. The inventor of a gun could commit suicide with it, but most inventors would not want to.? This has not stopped guns from being invented.? A scanner with this level of detail must also be able to be used for medical purposes. Removing cancer cells, tumors, cosmetic blemishes, etc. Probably the first use, before transportation. And notice the early transporters in Star Trek: Enterprise.? Bulk matter, where losing a higher percentage of the underlying matter was tolerable, was transported long before living beings.?_______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Mon Nov 22 21:33:33 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 13:33:33 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Does the Star Trek transporter kill people? In-Reply-To: <516b8b58-ca8b-eb63-4743-0fecc1dcfc22@zaiboc.net> References: <516b8b58-ca8b-eb63-4743-0fecc1dcfc22@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: I apologize for the confusion. My friend already had his masters in physics when he applied to the doctoral program run by Krauss. And so after quitting due to an uncooperative Krauss and a horrible situation at home, he was able to find work with an upgrade project for the MRI scanner. He unfortunately never did get his doctorate in physics, and currently teaches with one of the larger online only universities. John On Sat, Nov 20, 2021 at 2:54 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 20/11/2021 14:57, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > > No, it's legit. "Despite" the obstacles that John's friend encountered, > he got his degree. > > On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 4:34 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> When you say "despite this", do you perhaps mean "because of this"? This >> is not what despite means. bill w >> > Hm. What I'm suggesting is that perhaps if Krauss had acceded to his > request, he may not have got his degree. And perhaps Krauss had experience > of that happening. Hence his refusal. At the very least, he probably > realised that the guy was capable of continuing his studies in spite of his > problem. After all, in most cases, someone has a higher chance of getting a > degree if they continue their studies uninterrupted than if they don't. > > Ben > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Nov 24 17:23:29 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 11:23:29 -0600 Subject: [ExI] news Message-ID: Most of us deplore the extreme right and left news sources, blaming them for much of what is wrong with America. But how much influence do they really have? Fox leads in number of viewers with 4 million out of about 80 million homes that receive Fox. Is that really a lot of influence? The riots and so forth are startling, important events. They make a lot of news. But it would seem that the number of people involved in them is truly a tiny portion of Americans. Perhaps polls tell us more about us than national news. I read them and what seems to be the case is that prominent pols don't seem to care about the issues that are most important according to the polls. And they don't care about their ratings, which are extremely low. Back in the days of the Nixon campaigns everyone wanted to claim that the 'silent majority' was on their side. It appears now that few big pols are supported by the silent majority. And there's this: just how important are the people at the top of the heap? In our everyday lives, not on the media. How can this be? They are getting away with ignoring the wishes of their constituencies. It is just too easy for the news media to play on the cognitive errors of their viewers, who think that what they see and hear is what is happening with everyone, not the just tiny part of America portrayed on Fox etc. Truly a strange time in politics. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Nov 24 18:44:00 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 10:44:00 -0800 Subject: [ExI] ai doorbell Message-ID: <006601d7e163$3f8239f0$be86add0$@rainier66.com> Hey cool, I had an idea today so cool, some yahoo probably already stole it before I thought of it, a reprehensible kidnapper of notions before the ideas are even born is she or he, deplorable, without conscience! OK the idea: most of us have seen those doorbells which take a digital image and text it to the homeowner. We could go beyond that. There is a hard wire between the traditional old doorbell and the ringer unit inside, so the old time doorbells are just a switch. But we don?t need that hard wire now, because we have Bluetooth, and we can power an inside ringer unit by other means if we wish. OK so now? the outside doorbell already has a niche cut out for it and a power source already in place, so this wouldn?t even be difficult. We create a doorbell switch with one of those cell phone cameras. Some prole pushes the button, the camera takes a photo, sends it to your phone the way the current bell-cams do, but this one is better: it would have an AI of some sort which does image recognition. It would recognize the Jehovah?s Witnesses for instance and not ring the indoor bell unit, but would have a soft ding dong that plays outside in such a way that makes them think your inside bell did ring. This way it doesn?t break your concentration as you view your? well, whatever it is you were viewing, none of my business. We could have it warn the neighbors via text message that the Witnesses are coming, don?t answer the door, that sorta thing. We could train it to work on sales people (fortunately those seem to have gone away with the shutdown.) Perhaps a good AI person could train it to make exceptions if the sales person is three-alarm schmoking hot, override the filter. If we were to get hot with the image recognition, we could have it figure out if the person at the door is a neighbor, and if so, have it send a talking text to your phone reminding you of the neighbor?s name. This would allow a prole to appear more friendly and personable than I actually am, so I need to ponder if that is a desirable outcome, but I suppose it is to some extent. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed Nov 24 20:00:51 2021 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:00:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Transhumanists in Sao Paulo Message-ID: <107FE1CA-A547-47D8-B8A1-FD8E04E0F421@gmail.com> My current boyfriend is a transhumanist and I?ve been trying to get him to join the list for months now, but he feels intimidated I guess. Do you know of any Portuguese language mailing lists/forums, or any Transhumanist groups in Sao Paulo Brazil? SR Ballard From stathisp at gmail.com Wed Nov 24 20:18:03 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 07:18:03 +1100 Subject: [ExI] news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Nov 2021 at 04:25, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Most of us deplore the extreme right and left news sources, blaming them > for much of what is wrong with America. > > But how much influence do they really have? Fox leads in number of > viewers with 4 million out of about 80 million homes that receive Fox. > > Is that really a lot of influence? > > The riots and so forth are startling, important events. They make a lot > of news. But it would seem that the number of people involved in them is > truly a tiny portion of Americans. > > Perhaps polls tell us more about us than national news. I read them and > what seems to be the case is that prominent pols don't seem to care about > the issues that are most important according to the polls. And they don't > care about their ratings, which are extremely low. > > Back in the days of the Nixon campaigns everyone wanted to claim that the > 'silent majority' was on their side. It appears now that few big pols are > supported by the silent majority. And there's this: just how important > are the people at the top of the heap? In our everyday lives, not on the > media. > > How can this be? They are getting away with ignoring the wishes of their > constituencies. > > It is just too easy for the news media to play on the cognitive errors of > their viewers, who think that what they see and hear is what is happening > with everyone, not the just tiny part of America portrayed on Fox etc. > > Truly a strange time in politics. > Which are the extreme left news sources? > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Nov 24 21:34:24 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 21:34:24 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Transhumanists in Sao Paulo In-Reply-To: <107FE1CA-A547-47D8-B8A1-FD8E04E0F421@gmail.com> References: <107FE1CA-A547-47D8-B8A1-FD8E04E0F421@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Nov 2021 at 20:04, SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: > > My current boyfriend is a transhumanist and I?ve been trying to get him to join the list for months now, but he feels intimidated I guess. > > Do you know of any Portuguese language mailing lists/forums, or any Transhumanist groups in Sao Paulo Brazil? > > SR Ballard > _______________________________________________ Hi Anybody can join the list and just read it for interest. I understand there are hundreds of read-only members but only a few people post messages. If you want to find Portuguese data, you have to search in Portuguese. Something like 'Lista de correio Transhumanista Portuguesa'. The search results are all in Portuguese of course! BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Nov 24 22:42:38 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 16:42:38 -0600 Subject: [ExI] news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You know what? I don't know. Left-leaning ones, yes, but radical? No. Maybe some small Communist one? bill w On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 2:20 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Thu, 25 Nov 2021 at 04:25, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Most of us deplore the extreme right and left news sources, blaming them >> for much of what is wrong with America. >> >> But how much influence do they really have? Fox leads in number of >> viewers with 4 million out of about 80 million homes that receive Fox. >> >> Is that really a lot of influence? >> >> The riots and so forth are startling, important events. They make a lot >> of news. But it would seem that the number of people involved in them is >> truly a tiny portion of Americans. >> >> Perhaps polls tell us more about us than national news. I read them and >> what seems to be the case is that prominent pols don't seem to care about >> the issues that are most important according to the polls. And they don't >> care about their ratings, which are extremely low. >> >> Back in the days of the Nixon campaigns everyone wanted to claim that the >> 'silent majority' was on their side. It appears now that few big pols are >> supported by the silent majority. And there's this: just how important >> are the people at the top of the heap? In our everyday lives, not on the >> media. >> >> How can this be? They are getting away with ignoring the wishes of their >> constituencies. >> >> It is just too easy for the news media to play on the cognitive errors of >> their viewers, who think that what they see and hear is what is happening >> with everyone, not the just tiny part of America portrayed on Fox etc. >> >> Truly a strange time in politics. >> > > Which are the extreme left news sources? > >> -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Nov 24 22:57:54 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:57:54 -0800 Subject: [ExI] news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003c01d7e186$b78a7250$269f56f0$@rainier66.com> >?Most of us deplore the extreme right and left news sources, blaming them for much of what is wrong with America?. Billw I want the most upwing news I can find. Reason.com is my favorite source. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Wed Nov 24 23:10:04 2021 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 18:10:04 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ai doorbell In-Reply-To: <006601d7e163$3f8239f0$be86add0$@rainier66.com> References: <006601d7e163$3f8239f0$be86add0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I have one of these: https://energizerconnect.com/product/smart-1080p-video-doorbell/ It is powered by the hardwire to the door bell. I can see, hear, record, and talk to [or avoid] the person at the door from my phone or tablet in 1080p video resolution. Someone with access to that api could make what you describe I imagine. We just need some open source projects that access this type of hardware, which is becoming more available, to get the ball rolling. -Henry On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 1:44 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > Hey cool, I had an idea today so cool, some yahoo probably already stole > it before I thought of it, a reprehensible kidnapper of notions before the > ideas are even born is she or he, deplorable, without conscience! > > > > OK the idea: most of us have seen those doorbells which take a digital > image and text it to the homeowner. We could go beyond that. There is a > hard wire between the traditional old doorbell and the ringer unit inside, > so the old time doorbells are just a switch. But we don?t need that hard > wire now, because we have Bluetooth, and we can power an inside ringer unit > by other means if we wish. > > > > OK so now? the outside doorbell already has a niche cut out for it and a > power source already in place, so this wouldn?t even be difficult. We > create a doorbell switch with one of those cell phone cameras. Some prole > pushes the button, the camera takes a photo, sends it to your phone the way > the current bell-cams do, but this one is better: it would have an AI of > some sort which does image recognition. It would recognize the Jehovah?s > Witnesses for instance and not ring the indoor bell unit, but would have a > soft ding dong that plays outside in such a way that makes them think your > inside bell did ring. This way it doesn?t break your concentration as you > view your? well, whatever it is you were viewing, none of my business. > > > > We could have it warn the neighbors via text message that the Witnesses > are coming, don?t answer the door, that sorta thing. We could train it to > work on sales people (fortunately those seem to have gone away with the > shutdown.) Perhaps a good AI person could train it to make exceptions if > the sales person is three-alarm schmoking hot, override the filter. > > > > If we were to get hot with the image recognition, we could have it figure > out if the person at the door is a neighbor, and if so, have it send a > talking text to your phone reminding you of the neighbor?s name. This > would allow a prole to appear more friendly and personable than I actually > am, so I need to ponder if that is a desirable outcome, but I suppose it is > to some extent. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Nov 24 23:42:34 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 17:42:34 -0600 Subject: [ExI] news In-Reply-To: <003c01d7e186$b78a7250$269f56f0$@rainier66.com> References: <003c01d7e186$b78a7250$269f56f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Does anyone know of a far left news source? bill w On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 4:59 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > >?Most of us deplore the extreme right and left news sources, blaming them > for much of what is wrong with America?. Billw > > > > > > > > > > I want the most upwing news I can find. Reason.com is my favorite source. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Nov 24 23:53:54 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 23:53:54 +0000 Subject: [ExI] news In-Reply-To: References: <003c01d7e186$b78a7250$269f56f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Nov 2021 at 23:45, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Does anyone know of a far left news source? bill w > > _______________________________________________ BillK From betawolf at betaname.net Wed Nov 24 23:58:02 2021 From: betawolf at betaname.net (Betawolf) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 23:58:02 +0000 Subject: [ExI] news In-Reply-To: References: <003c01d7e186$b78a7250$269f56f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: >Does anyone know of a far left news source? bill w This is a handy chart that seems to capture the ideological position of a range of common sources. Some of those in the strongest 'left' category could be considered far-left. Often the 'far-' label doesn't just refer to ideological position, but degree of detachment from reality, for which you additionally need an accuracy accessment. AdFontesMedia run a different chart which represents some of this here: -- if you run down the left-leaning arc you'll see e.g. Vox remains just inside the 'fact reporting' boundary, and MSNBC and Daily Beast are left-skewed and of unreliable quality. There are ones further down that arc, but not many I've heard of. Betawolf From stathisp at gmail.com Thu Nov 25 00:44:04 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 11:44:04 +1100 Subject: [ExI] news In-Reply-To: References: <003c01d7e186$b78a7250$269f56f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Nov 2021 at 11:15, Betawolf via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >Does anyone know of a far left news source? bill w > > < > https://www.allsides.com/sites/default/files/AllSidesMediaBiasChart-Version5.jpg > > > > This is a handy chart that seems to capture the ideological position of > a range of common sources. Some of those in the strongest 'left' > category could be considered far-left. > > Often the 'far-' label doesn't just refer to ideological position, but > degree of detachment from reality, for which you additionally need an > accuracy accessment. AdFontesMedia run a different chart which > represents some of this here: > -- if you run > down the left-leaning arc you'll see e.g. Vox remains just inside the > 'fact reporting' boundary, and MSNBC and Daily Beast are left-skewed and > of unreliable quality. There are ones further down that arc, but not > many I've heard of. > The list confirms that what is left in the US would be centre or even right of centre in most other countries. -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Thu Nov 25 13:25:00 2021 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 08:25:00 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Transhumanists in Sao Paulo In-Reply-To: References: <107FE1CA-A547-47D8-B8A1-FD8E04E0F421@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, I keep trying to explain about the list to him. haha I was just wondering if anyone knew of anything specifically, many such anglophone groups are frustratingly defunct, so I imagine the same is true in Portuguese. But thank you On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 4:37 PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, 24 Nov 2021 at 20:04, SR Ballard via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > My current boyfriend is a transhumanist and I?ve been trying to get him > to join the list for months now, but he feels intimidated I guess. > > > > Do you know of any Portuguese language mailing lists/forums, or any > Transhumanist groups in Sao Paulo Brazil? > > > > SR Ballard > > _______________________________________________ > > > Hi > Anybody can join the list and just read it for interest. > I understand there are hundreds of read-only members but > only a few people post messages. > If you want to find Portuguese data, you have to search in Portuguese. > Something like 'Lista de correio Transhumanista Portuguesa'. > The search results are all in Portuguese of course! > > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Nov 25 23:32:52 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 17:32:52 -0600 Subject: [ExI] news In-Reply-To: References: <003c01d7e186$b78a7250$269f56f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Thanks. Very helpful. bill w On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 6:46 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Thu, 25 Nov 2021 at 11:15, Betawolf via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >Does anyone know of a far left news source? bill w >> >> < >> https://www.allsides.com/sites/default/files/AllSidesMediaBiasChart-Version5.jpg >> > >> >> This is a handy chart that seems to capture the ideological position of >> a range of common sources. Some of those in the strongest 'left' >> category could be considered far-left. >> >> Often the 'far-' label doesn't just refer to ideological position, but >> degree of detachment from reality, for which you additionally need an >> accuracy accessment. AdFontesMedia run a different chart which >> represents some of this here: >> -- if you run >> >> down the left-leaning arc you'll see e.g. Vox remains just inside the >> 'fact reporting' boundary, and MSNBC and Daily Beast are left-skewed and >> >> of unreliable quality. There are ones further down that arc, but not >> many I've heard of. >> > > The list confirms that what is left in the US would be centre or even > right of centre in most other countries. > > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Thu Nov 25 23:52:57 2021 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 16:52:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ai doorbell In-Reply-To: References: <006601d7e163$3f8239f0$be86add0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Obligatory xkcd: https://xkcd.com/1425/ On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 4:11 PM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I have one of these: > https://energizerconnect.com/product/smart-1080p-video-doorbell/ > It is powered by the hardwire to the door bell. I can see, hear, record, > and talk to [or avoid] the person at the door from my phone or tablet in > 1080p video resolution. Someone with access to that api could make what you > describe I imagine. We just need some open source projects that access this > type of hardware, which is becoming more available, to get the ball > rolling. -Henry > > On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 1:44 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> Hey cool, I had an idea today so cool, some yahoo probably already stole >> it before I thought of it, a reprehensible kidnapper of notions before the >> ideas are even born is she or he, deplorable, without conscience! >> >> >> >> OK the idea: most of us have seen those doorbells which take a digital >> image and text it to the homeowner. We could go beyond that. There is a >> hard wire between the traditional old doorbell and the ringer unit inside, >> so the old time doorbells are just a switch. But we don?t need that hard >> wire now, because we have Bluetooth, and we can power an inside ringer unit >> by other means if we wish. >> >> >> >> OK so now? the outside doorbell already has a niche cut out for it and a >> power source already in place, so this wouldn?t even be difficult. We >> create a doorbell switch with one of those cell phone cameras. Some prole >> pushes the button, the camera takes a photo, sends it to your phone the way >> the current bell-cams do, but this one is better: it would have an AI of >> some sort which does image recognition. It would recognize the Jehovah?s >> Witnesses for instance and not ring the indoor bell unit, but would have a >> soft ding dong that plays outside in such a way that makes them think your >> inside bell did ring. This way it doesn?t break your concentration as you >> view your? well, whatever it is you were viewing, none of my business. >> >> >> >> We could have it warn the neighbors via text message that the Witnesses >> are coming, don?t answer the door, that sorta thing. We could train it to >> work on sales people (fortunately those seem to have gone away with the >> shutdown.) Perhaps a good AI person could train it to make exceptions if >> the sales person is three-alarm schmoking hot, override the filter. >> >> >> >> If we were to get hot with the image recognition, we could have it figure >> out if the person at the door is a neighbor, and if so, have it send a >> talking text to your phone reminding you of the neighbor?s name. This >> would allow a prole to appear more friendly and personable than I actually >> am, so I need to ponder if that is a desirable outcome, but I suppose it is >> to some extent. >> >> >> >> spike >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Fri Nov 26 00:38:12 2021 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 17:38:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ai doorbell In-Reply-To: References: <006601d7e163$3f8239f0$be86add0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, I LOVE it when the JWs visit. Spike, aren't you a JW? Or are you 7th day Adventist? I can never remember. I always enjoy teaching them how much better transhumanism is, compared to their faithless stuff. I love the look on their face, when I accuse them have having no faith or hope, for accepting some of their terrible hateful/hopeless beliefs about what happens to bad people. And when I was on my Mormon Mission in Japan, I always liked to ride my bike way out to the middle of no where, and knock on those doors. Boy were they always surprised to see some "gaijenes" (their word for foreigner) knocked on their door. But one day I was totally shocked by their response: "Oh, your friends just knocked on our door, we aren't interested." when I new for a fact there is no chance any LDS Missionary had ever been to that house. (they keep very good records) so it was hard to believe them, but I couldn't figure out why they would say that. Then latter that day I figure it out. There were some JW missionaries, covering the same area!!! And they beat us to that particular house, earlier that day. We later ran into them, and we became good friends. We would go, and let them preach to us. I loved that. The name of the "Watch Tower" magazine, in Japanese was pronounce "Mono Mino To", and the Mormon church was "Morumon kyo", almost sounding the same, so the Japanese could never tell us apart. They always said about us missionaries: "they all look the same to us" Brent On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 4:54 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Obligatory xkcd: https://xkcd.com/1425/ > > On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 4:11 PM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I have one of these: >> https://energizerconnect.com/product/smart-1080p-video-doorbell/ >> It is powered by the hardwire to the door bell. I can see, hear, record, >> and talk to [or avoid] the person at the door from my phone or tablet in >> 1080p video resolution. Someone with access to that api could make what you >> describe I imagine. We just need some open source projects that access this >> type of hardware, which is becoming more available, to get the ball >> rolling. -Henry >> >> On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 1:44 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Hey cool, I had an idea today so cool, some yahoo probably already stole >>> it before I thought of it, a reprehensible kidnapper of notions before the >>> ideas are even born is she or he, deplorable, without conscience! >>> >>> >>> >>> OK the idea: most of us have seen those doorbells which take a digital >>> image and text it to the homeowner. We could go beyond that. There is a >>> hard wire between the traditional old doorbell and the ringer unit inside, >>> so the old time doorbells are just a switch. But we don?t need that hard >>> wire now, because we have Bluetooth, and we can power an inside ringer unit >>> by other means if we wish. >>> >>> >>> >>> OK so now? the outside doorbell already has a niche cut out for it and a >>> power source already in place, so this wouldn?t even be difficult. We >>> create a doorbell switch with one of those cell phone cameras. Some prole >>> pushes the button, the camera takes a photo, sends it to your phone the way >>> the current bell-cams do, but this one is better: it would have an AI of >>> some sort which does image recognition. It would recognize the Jehovah?s >>> Witnesses for instance and not ring the indoor bell unit, but would have a >>> soft ding dong that plays outside in such a way that makes them think your >>> inside bell did ring. This way it doesn?t break your concentration as you >>> view your? well, whatever it is you were viewing, none of my business. >>> >>> >>> >>> We could have it warn the neighbors via text message that the Witnesses >>> are coming, don?t answer the door, that sorta thing. We could train it to >>> work on sales people (fortunately those seem to have gone away with the >>> shutdown.) Perhaps a good AI person could train it to make exceptions if >>> the sales person is three-alarm schmoking hot, override the filter. >>> >>> >>> >>> If we were to get hot with the image recognition, we could have it >>> figure out if the person at the door is a neighbor, and if so, have it send >>> a talking text to your phone reminding you of the neighbor?s name. This >>> would allow a prole to appear more friendly and personable than I actually >>> am, so I need to ponder if that is a desirable outcome, but I suppose it is >>> to some extent. >>> >>> >>> >>> spike >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From guessmyneeds at yahoo.com Fri Nov 26 02:48:19 2021 From: guessmyneeds at yahoo.com (Sherry Knepper) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 02:48:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <261124072.1276708.1637894899902@mail.yahoo.com> Also strange in politics is tons of people standing along a street, parade-style waiting for JFK to join Trump. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 12:32 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: Most of us deplore the extreme right and left news sources, blaming them for much of what is wrong with America. But how much influence do they really have?? Fox leads in number of viewers with 4 million out of about 80 million homes that receive Fox. Is that really a lot of influence? The riots and so forth are startling, important events.? They make a lot of news.? But it would seem that the number of people involved in them is truly a tiny portion of Americans. Perhaps polls tell us more about us than national news.? I read them and what seems to be the case is that prominent pols don't seem to care about the issues that are most important according to the polls.? And they don't care about their ratings, which are extremely low. Back in the days of the Nixon campaigns everyone wanted to claim that the 'silent majority' was on their side.? It appears now that few big pols are supported by the silent majority.? And there's this:? just how important are the people at the top of the heap?? In our everyday lives, not on the media.?? How can this be?? They are getting away with ignoring the wishes of their constituencies. It is just too easy for the news media to play on the cognitive errors of their viewers, who think that what they see and hear is what is happening with everyone, not the just tiny part of America portrayed on Fox etc.?? Truly a strange time in politics. bill w_______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Nov 26 05:45:20 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 21:45:20 -0800 Subject: [ExI] ai doorbell In-Reply-To: References: <006601d7e163$3f8239f0$be86add0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004801d7e288$cd3fa950$67befbf0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Brent Allsop via extropy-chat Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2021 4:38 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: Brent Allsop Subject: Re: [ExI] ai doorbell Spike, >?I LOVE it when the JWs visit. Spike, aren't you a JW? Or are you 7th day Adventist? I can never remember? Hi Brent, Its a delta variant of Seventh Day Adventists we call A29. I kinda invented it, or rather invented the name. There is a story behind it which I will omit for now. It has become popular among those who are former SDA, but share some views still, such as the notion that humans (and any other living thing) is a machine that can be replicated in theory. I carry the notion further into believing that a sentient being can have its conscience uploaded and simulated so effectively, the beast itself doesn?t realize it is a sim. When you think about it, that is the only realistic model many of us have for a life after this hunk of protoplasm wears out. We might think of it as a kind of cornerstone of transhumanism: that sentience is not substrate dependent. In A29, one does not need to accept the notion of a supernatural being. One can still have a supreme being, defined as the smartest thing in the universe (or galaxy if you prefer thinking in those terms (the universe is really really big (the galaxy is too (so we can restrict our thinking to the galaxy (for this supreme being is subject to the laws of nature (including the speed of light.)))))) >? They always said about us missionaries: "they all look the same to us" Brent Brent I can say this about the Mormon missionaries: they seem to be really good guys. We see them around, talk to them and cheer them on, while making it perfectly clear we don?t want their religion (or any other.) They seem cool with that. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Fri Nov 26 20:24:44 2021 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 15:24:44 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ai doorbell In-Reply-To: <004801d7e288$cd3fa950$67befbf0$@rainier66.com> References: <006601d7e163$3f8239f0$be86add0$@rainier66.com> <004801d7e288$cd3fa950$67befbf0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 26, 2021, 12:47 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Its a delta variant of Seventh Day Adventists we call A29. I kinda > invented it, or rather invented the name. There is a story behind it which > I will omit for now. > Is that story some OCD transform of 29A (hexadecimal) = 666 (decimal)? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Nov 27 01:56:33 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 17:56:33 -0800 Subject: [ExI] ai doorbell In-Reply-To: References: <006601d7e163$3f8239f0$be86add0$@rainier66.com> <004801d7e288$cd3fa950$67befbf0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006e01d7e332$0175b440$04611cc0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat Sent: Friday, November 26, 2021 12:25 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: Mike Dougherty Subject: Re: [ExI] ai doorbell On Fri, Nov 26, 2021, 12:47 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: Its a delta variant of Seventh Day Adventists we call A29. I kinda invented it, or rather invented the name. There is a story behind it which I will omit for now. >?Is that story some OCD transform of 29A (hexadecimal) = 666 (decimal)? Hi Mike, No. The SDA church has a creed listing 28 fundamental beliefs. An A29 is one who embraces a 29th fundamental belief that one can be an A29 if one rejects any or all of the list except number 29, which holds that one may be an A29 if one rejects any or all of the list except that last one, which an A29 may not reject, for if he does, then he must embrace the first 28 fundamental beliefs, which would make him a heretic to the A29. My notion for this invention is that there are those of us who embrace some aspects of that list of 28, such as the afore-mentioned notion of substrate independence of consciousness, one on which many or most of us here would agree. Without that principle, transhumanism is mostly pointless. Another of the 28 I mostly embrace to this day is lifestyle stuff: moderation is good for one?s health. Many transhumanists have a form of this with the notion of eating light is eating right. Looks to me like that works generally: live as long as you can, for new medical insights are coming to us always. So: I reject the superstitious stuff, but very much hold to some of the lifestyle notions, the technology as a path to extended consciousness and so forth. There are people I care about still in the traditional A28 view, so? I consider myself an A29. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat Nov 27 02:18:11 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 18:18:11 -0800 Subject: [ExI] ai doorbell In-Reply-To: <006e01d7e332$0175b440$04611cc0$@rainier66.com> References: <006601d7e163$3f8239f0$be86add0$@rainier66.com> <004801d7e288$cd3fa950$67befbf0$@rainier66.com> <006e01d7e332$0175b440$04611cc0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 5:58 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > My notion for this invention is that there are those of us who embrace > some aspects of that list of 28, such as the afore-mentioned notion of > substrate independence of consciousness, one on which many or most of us > here would agree. Without that principle, transhumanism is mostly > pointless. > > > > Another of the 28 I mostly embrace to this day is lifestyle stuff: > moderation is good for one?s health. Many transhumanists have a form of > this with the notion of eating light is eating right. Looks to me like > that works generally: live as long as you can, for new medical insights are > coming to us always. > > > > So: I reject the superstitious stuff, but very much hold to some of the > lifestyle notions, the technology as a path to extended consciousness and > so forth. There are people I care about still in the traditional A28 view, > so? I consider myself an A29. > I just had a look through https://www.adventist.org/beliefs/ and I saw nothing about substrate independence or moderation. Number 22 might be close to moderation, but I'd rather question what counts as "the highest standards of Christian taste and beauty" given what Christianity as a whole keeps demonstrating. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Nov 27 02:35:21 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 18:35:21 -0800 Subject: [ExI] ai doorbell In-Reply-To: References: <006601d7e163$3f8239f0$be86add0$@rainier66.com> <004801d7e288$cd3fa950$67befbf0$@rainier66.com> <006e01d7e332$0175b440$04611cc0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <009101d7e337$6cdc6ad0$46954070$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat ? >?I just had a look through https://www.adventist.org/beliefs/ and I saw nothing about substrate independence or moderation. Number 22 might be close to moderation, but I'd rather question what counts as "the highest standards of Christian taste and beauty" given what Christianity as a whole keeps demonstrating. Ja, the notion of substrate independence is an extrapolation based on notions not listed in those beliefs. It was all the hot rage in the early 1980s, when a lot of us were debating the limits of computer simulations: could a sim of sentience be written which was so good it would not realize it was a sim. My participation in those discussions in those days caused me to be receptive to ideas I found ten years later on ExI. Plenty of my classmates (who are friends to this day) were likewise convinced in those days that sentience is not dependent on carbon: it can exist in silicon. I think silicon is a superior substrate, but evolution had to work with carbon before we could get to silicon. Regarding the lifestyle stuff: vegetarianism is probably a good idea for optimal health. I am not a vegetarian myself, but a light eater of meat. I reject alcohol and drug use (except caffeine of course (caffeine is my friend (good stuff it is, hot and black.)))) Generally eat light, live right, sleep in your own bed every night, these are all good ideas. One need not be superstitious to embrace the value of these general principles. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat Nov 27 02:43:28 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 18:43:28 -0800 Subject: [ExI] ai doorbell In-Reply-To: <009101d7e337$6cdc6ad0$46954070$@rainier66.com> References: <006601d7e163$3f8239f0$be86add0$@rainier66.com> <004801d7e288$cd3fa950$67befbf0$@rainier66.com> <006e01d7e332$0175b440$04611cc0$@rainier66.com> <009101d7e337$6cdc6ad0$46954070$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 6:35 PM wrote: > Generally eat light > Unfortunately, it is not presently possible for humans to subsist as direct photovores. At this time, the closest we can do is to eat things which eat light. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Nov 27 02:59:33 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 18:59:33 -0800 Subject: [ExI] ai doorbell In-Reply-To: References: <006601d7e163$3f8239f0$be86add0$@rainier66.com> <004801d7e288$cd3fa950$67befbf0$@rainier66.com> <006e01d7e332$0175b440$04611cc0$@rainier66.com> <009101d7e337$6cdc6ad0$46954070$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00b101d7e33a$ce2e7b40$6a8b71c0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat .. Subject: Re: [ExI] ai doorbell On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 6:35 PM > wrote: Generally eat light >?Unfortunately, it is not presently possible for humans to subsist as direct photovores. At this time, the closest we can do is to eat things which eat light. Ja. I used a bit of poetic license, trusting that the readers would understand I mean eat lightly, live rightly, sleep in your own bed nightly, which just doesn?t sound right to me. I have toyed with the notion of vegetarianism over the years. If humans embrace the notion we could devour down our enormous cattle herds and be more suited to living lightly on this planet. This would enable more humans to have a chance at life, which is a good thing, particularly if we can figure out a way to educate the superstition out of most of them. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Nov 27 15:32:20 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 15:32:20 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Advice for watching on-line chess Message-ID: For those interested in chess ------- (At least one!). Simple advice for watching and understanding on-line chess by Tyler Cowen November 27, 2021 Quote: Yes, the computer evaluations are extremely useful. But they are measuring the quality of the position when two computers are playing. Yet most of the games you care about tend to be two humans playing each other. And those humans do not play like computers. The computer might say the game is even, and maybe it is with perfect play, but one side can be much harder (easier) to play than the other. So I suggest this trick. Go to analysis.sesse.net, which covers top games (only). Scan down the vertical list of all possible moves and consider the distribution of outcomes. If the top move is great for White, but all the others are not, robustness is low, especially if the top move for White is not super-obvious (such as recapturing a Queen, etc.). If all the sequences look very good for White (Black), you will know that for humans the position probably is somewhat better for White than the single computer evaluation number will indicate. Robustness against human error will be present. ------------ >From the article comments, I liked - JF 2021-11-27 09:21:37 The best broadcasts always have a gradient of chess ability among the commentators, e.g. former top contender or champ plus a ~24 or 2500 rated player who has peaked. Right now Polgar and Giri are paired up at Chess24 giving comments and, naturally, the commentary is such that they are effectively communicating with each other. Way over my head! ---------------- BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Nov 27 15:42:35 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 09:42:35 -0600 Subject: [ExI] ai doorbell In-Reply-To: <00b101d7e33a$ce2e7b40$6a8b71c0$@rainier66.com> References: <006601d7e163$3f8239f0$be86add0$@rainier66.com> <004801d7e288$cd3fa950$67befbf0$@rainier66.com> <006e01d7e332$0175b440$04611cc0$@rainier66.com> <009101d7e337$6cdc6ad0$46954070$@rainier66.com> <00b101d7e33a$ce2e7b40$6a8b71c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: if we can figure out a way to educate the superstition out of most of them. spike I don't know if that is even possible. Obviously our brains accept false correlations as well as true ones, so we are fighting basic processes of our minds. All those cognitive errors we keep talking about are built in. I can't see our acquiring them as learning. Does anyone think they are learned? Our brains have worked well enough to get us here and thriving as a species and you can't blame Mother Nature for not making everything perfect. Evolution did its job, though much of the way our minds work is regrettable and could be designed much better. bill w On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 9:01 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > *..* > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] ai doorbell > > > > On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 6:35 PM wrote: > > Generally eat light > > > > >?Unfortunately, it is not presently possible for humans to subsist as > direct photovores. At this time, the closest we can do is to eat things > which eat light. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ja. I used a bit of poetic license, trusting that the readers would > understand I mean eat lightly, live rightly, sleep in your own bed nightly, > which just doesn?t sound right to me. > > > > I have toyed with the notion of vegetarianism over the years. If humans > embrace the notion we could devour down our enormous cattle herds and be > more suited to living lightly on this planet. This would enable more > humans to have a chance at life, which is a good thing, particularly if we > can figure out a way to educate the superstition out of most of them. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Nov 27 16:12:47 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 16:12:47 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Metaverse - Could be even worse than social media. Message-ID: Metaverse: Augmented reality inventor warns it could be far worse than social media. If used improperly, the metaverse could be more divisive than social media and an insidious threat to society and even reality itself. THE FUTURE ? NOVEMBER 6, 2021 Louis Rosenberg Quotes: KEY TAKEAWAYS Social media manipulates our reality by filtering what we are allowed (or not allowed) to see. We live in dangerous times because too many people use social media to disseminate untruths and promote division. Augmented reality and the metaverse have the potential to amplify these dangers to incomprehensible levels. At its core, augmented reality (AR) and the metaverse are media technologies that aim to present content in the most natural form possible ? by seamlessly integrating simulated sights, sounds, and even feelings into our perception of the real world around us. This means AR, more than any form of media to date, has the potential to alter our sense of reality, distorting how we interpret our direct daily experiences. In an augmented world, simply walking down the street will become a wild amalgamation of the physical and the virtual, merged so convincingly that the boundaries will disappear in our minds. Our surroundings will become filled with persons, places, objects, and activities that don?t actually exist, and yet they will seem deeply authentic to us. Personally, I find this terrifying. That is because augmented reality will fundamentally change all aspects of society and not necessarily in a good way. --------------------------- Big changes ahead. If we can't stop present-day social media from harming people, how will a much more powerful technology be controlled? As the work-from-home revolution has demonstrated, is this the first step in humanity leaving the real world and moving into virtual worlds? The lessons of Second Life have been learned and the Metaverse could become irresistible. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Sat Nov 27 16:24:05 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 08:24:05 -0800 Subject: [ExI] ai doorbell In-Reply-To: References: <006601d7e163$3f8239f0$be86add0$@rainier66.com> <004801d7e288$cd3fa950$67befbf0$@rainier66.com> <006e01d7e332$0175b440$04611cc0$@rainier66.com> <009101d7e337$6cdc6ad0$46954070$@rainier66.com> <00b101d7e33a$ce2e7b40$6a8b71c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <000c01d7e3ab$32e37840$98aa68c0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] ai doorbell >>? if we can figure out a way to educate the superstition out of most of them. spike >?I don't know if that is even possible. Obviously our brains accept false correlations as well as true ones, so we are fighting basic processes of our minds. All those cognitive errors we keep talking about are built in. I can't see our acquiring them as learning. Does anyone think they are learned? Our brains have worked well enough to get us here and thriving as a species and you can't blame Mother Nature for not making everything perfect. Evolution did its job, though much of the way our minds work is regrettable and could be designed much better. bill w It is one step more subtle than that Billw. Our acceptance of superstition is built in, a phenomenon for which I use a term I already know you dislike: instinct. Our instinct steers us wrong (as it does with so many things) in this case. Accepting superstition is built in, but overcoming it is a learned behavior. One of our biggest challenges is that built in behaviors are low effort and replicate easier than learned behaviors. Soon the superstitious elements outnumber and outvote the learned behaviors. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat Nov 27 17:42:46 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 09:42:46 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Metaverse - Could be even worse than social media. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Such a future was contemplated back in the '90s: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJO_pBML7xw . On Sat, Nov 27, 2021 at 8:14 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Metaverse: Augmented reality inventor warns it could be far worse than > social media. > If used improperly, the metaverse could be more divisive than social > media and an insidious threat to society and even reality itself. > > THE FUTURE ? NOVEMBER 6, 2021 Louis Rosenberg > > > Quotes: > KEY TAKEAWAYS > Social media manipulates our reality by filtering what we are allowed > (or not allowed) to see. We live in dangerous times because too many > people use social media to disseminate untruths and promote division. > Augmented reality and the metaverse have the potential to amplify > these dangers to incomprehensible levels. > > At its core, augmented reality (AR) and the metaverse are media > technologies that aim to present content in the most natural form > possible ? by seamlessly integrating simulated sights, sounds, and > even feelings into our perception of the real world around us. This > means AR, more than any form of media to date, has the potential to > alter our sense of reality, distorting how we interpret our direct > daily experiences. In an augmented world, simply walking down the > street will become a wild amalgamation of the physical and the > virtual, merged so convincingly that the boundaries will disappear in > our minds. Our surroundings will become filled with persons, places, > objects, and activities that don?t actually exist, and yet they will > seem deeply authentic to us. > > Personally, I find this terrifying. That is because augmented reality > will fundamentally change all aspects of society and not necessarily > in a good way. > --------------------------- > > > Big changes ahead. If we can't stop present-day social media from > harming people, how will a much more powerful technology be > controlled? As the work-from-home revolution has demonstrated, is > this the first step in humanity leaving the real world and moving into > virtual worlds? The lessons of Second Life have been learned and the > Metaverse could become irresistible. > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Nov 27 18:26:19 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 12:26:19 -0600 Subject: [ExI] ai doorbell In-Reply-To: <000c01d7e3ab$32e37840$98aa68c0$@rainier66.com> References: <006601d7e163$3f8239f0$be86add0$@rainier66.com> <004801d7e288$cd3fa950$67befbf0$@rainier66.com> <006e01d7e332$0175b440$04611cc0$@rainier66.com> <009101d7e337$6cdc6ad0$46954070$@rainier66.com> <00b101d7e33a$ce2e7b40$6a8b71c0$@rainier66.com> <000c01d7e3ab$32e37840$98aa68c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The answer to both of our questions is that a complete study of the cognitive errors may show that each error is, in fact, an extension of a brain function that is logical and necessary. Take overgeneralization which I talk about a lot. We cannot exist without generalization, and overgeneralization will happen just as would any behavior that is not highly fixed in nature, such as an instinct. Variation in generalization will produce overgeneralization - it can't be helped, I think. A college football player said this morning that he despises the other team. In fact, the other team might contain players that he played with in high school and were friends with. OG. Perhaps spurred by strong emotions, which we already know flattens the generalization gradient.. You are, of course, right that education has to occur, and early. We have no other way of combatting these errors. For now. bill w On Sat, Nov 27, 2021 at 10:25 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] ai doorbell > > > > >>? if we can figure out a way to educate the superstition out of most of > them. spike > > > > >?I don't know if that is even possible. Obviously our brains accept > false correlations as well as true ones, so we are fighting basic processes > of our minds. All those cognitive errors we keep talking about are built > in. I can't see our acquiring them as learning. Does anyone think they > are learned? Our brains have worked well enough to get us here and > thriving as a species and you can't blame Mother Nature for not making > everything perfect. Evolution did its job, though much of the way our > minds work is regrettable and could be designed much better. bill w > > > > It is one step more subtle than that Billw. Our acceptance of > superstition is built in, a phenomenon for which I use a term I already > know you dislike: instinct. Our instinct steers us wrong (as it does with > so many things) in this case. Accepting superstition is built in, but > overcoming it is a learned behavior. > > One of our biggest challenges is that built in behaviors are low effort > and replicate easier than learned behaviors. Soon the superstitious > elements outnumber and outvote the learned behaviors. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Nov 27 18:30:42 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 12:30:42 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Metaverse - Could be even worse than social media. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If we can't stop present-day social media from harming people, bill k Just how would you envision that happening without government censorship, which to me is worse than anything you describe? bill w On Sat, Nov 27, 2021 at 10:15 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Metaverse: Augmented reality inventor warns it could be far worse than > social media. > If used improperly, the metaverse could be more divisive than social > media and an insidious threat to society and even reality itself. > > THE FUTURE ? NOVEMBER 6, 2021 Louis Rosenberg > > > Quotes: > KEY TAKEAWAYS > Social media manipulates our reality by filtering what we are allowed > (or not allowed) to see. We live in dangerous times because too many > people use social media to disseminate untruths and promote division. > Augmented reality and the metaverse have the potential to amplify > these dangers to incomprehensible levels. > > At its core, augmented reality (AR) and the metaverse are media > technologies that aim to present content in the most natural form > possible ? by seamlessly integrating simulated sights, sounds, and > even feelings into our perception of the real world around us. This > means AR, more than any form of media to date, has the potential to > alter our sense of reality, distorting how we interpret our direct > daily experiences. In an augmented world, simply walking down the > street will become a wild amalgamation of the physical and the > virtual, merged so convincingly that the boundaries will disappear in > our minds. Our surroundings will become filled with persons, places, > objects, and activities that don?t actually exist, and yet they will > seem deeply authentic to us. > > Personally, I find this terrifying. That is because augmented reality > will fundamentally change all aspects of society and not necessarily > in a good way. > --------------------------- > > > Big changes ahead. If we can't stop present-day social media from > harming people, how will a much more powerful technology be > controlled? As the work-from-home revolution has demonstrated, is > this the first step in humanity leaving the real world and moving into > virtual worlds? The lessons of Second Life have been learned and the > Metaverse could become irresistible. > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Nov 28 01:35:05 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 19:35:05 -0600 Subject: [ExI] ai doorbell In-Reply-To: <000c01d7e3ab$32e37840$98aa68c0$@rainier66.com> References: <006601d7e163$3f8239f0$be86add0$@rainier66.com> <004801d7e288$cd3fa950$67befbf0$@rainier66.com> <006e01d7e332$0175b440$04611cc0$@rainier66.com> <009101d7e337$6cdc6ad0$46954070$@rainier66.com> <00b101d7e33a$ce2e7b40$6a8b71c0$@rainier66.com> <000c01d7e3ab$32e37840$98aa68c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: How many ways are there to say something is innate in some fashion? A reflex, instinct, largely genetic behavior (including behavior of the brain), innate tendency,and so on. Why use 'instinct'? You are using it in ways very different from what biologists use it for, which is complex, rigid external behaviors (geese following a person). I can accept anything, whether I like it or not. I just want to know how you are using the term. You didn't get it from biology or psychology. bill w On Sat, Nov 27, 2021 at 10:25 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] ai doorbell > > > > >>? if we can figure out a way to educate the superstition out of most of > them. spike > > > > >?I don't know if that is even possible. Obviously our brains accept > false correlations as well as true ones, so we are fighting basic processes > of our minds. All those cognitive errors we keep talking about are built > in. I can't see our acquiring them as learning. Does anyone think they > are learned? Our brains have worked well enough to get us here and > thriving as a species and you can't blame Mother Nature for not making > everything perfect. Evolution did its job, though much of the way our > minds work is regrettable and could be designed much better. bill w > > > > It is one step more subtle than that Billw. Our acceptance of > superstition is built in, a phenomenon for which I use a term I already > know you dislike: instinct. Our instinct steers us wrong (as it does with > so many things) in this case. Accepting superstition is built in, but > overcoming it is a learned behavior. > > One of our biggest challenges is that built in behaviors are low effort > and replicate easier than learned behaviors. Soon the superstitious > elements outnumber and outvote the learned behaviors. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Nov 28 01:43:45 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 19:43:45 -0600 Subject: [ExI] very disturbing Message-ID: Mass looting in San Francisco and now in Minnesota. And owners are prevented from stopping them. You think this won't spread? What the Hell? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Nov 28 01:54:28 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 17:54:28 -0800 Subject: [ExI] ai doorbell In-Reply-To: References: <006601d7e163$3f8239f0$be86add0$@rainier66.com> <004801d7e288$cd3fa950$67befbf0$@rainier66.com> <006e01d7e332$0175b440$04611cc0$@rainier66.com> <009101d7e337$6cdc6ad0$46954070$@rainier66.com> <00b101d7e33a$ce2e7b40$6a8b71c0$@rainier66.com> <000c01d7e3ab$32e37840$98aa68c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008901d7e3fa$e17be000$a473a000$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] ai doorbell >?How many ways are there to say something is innate in some fashion? A reflex, instinct, largely genetic behavior (including behavior of the brain), innate tendency,and so on. >?Why use 'instinct'? ?bill w Billw, a long time ago, I had a friend who was a dog trainer, who had been in the biz for decades and was good at it. He explained to me how he had to work with certain (he called them) instincts that some breeds had. They came pre-packaged with certain ways of looking at life. His job was mostly figuring out what was already going on in the dog?s head and working with that, rather than trying to fight it. My notion is that humans have a less-developed version of known dog behaviors, such as retrievers just wanting to fetch stuff and Dobermans wanting to tear your damn leg off, that sorta thing. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Nov 28 02:02:03 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 18:02:03 -0800 Subject: [ExI] very disturbing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <009801d7e3fb$f03ee870$d0bcb950$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] very disturbing >?Mass looting in San Francisco and now in Minnesota. And owners are prevented from stopping them. You think this won't spread? bill w It already has spread. We have seen it in San Jose and smaller communities. Flash mob looters are demonstrating the end of traditional retailing. Now we have a viable alternative. Near where I live is a massive Amazon warehouse. A prole can go watch them load delivery trucks 20 at a time: 5 rows of four across, twenty crews consisting of three each: one in the truck, two on the ground, loading the trucks in fifteen minutes. They send out 20 trucks every fifteen minutes all day. Flash mobs cannot plunder the Amazon distribution center. Amazon does not have a lot of idle capital or a lot of idle workers as any retailer has. Amazon does not have employee theft as any retailer has. We can see the end of the road for traditional retail sales. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sun Nov 28 06:57:39 2021 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 07:57:39 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Martine Rothblatt will speak at the Terasem Colloquium on December 10 Message-ID: Turing Church newsletter. Martine Rothblatt will speak at the Terasem Colloquium on December 10. Other speakers: Susan Schneider, Randal Koene, Max More, Ken Hayworth, Robert McIntyre. You are invited! https://www.turingchurch.com/p/martine-rothblatt-will-speak-at-the From pharos at gmail.com Sun Nov 28 15:09:11 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 15:09:11 +0000 Subject: [ExI] very disturbing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 at 01:46, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Mass looting in San Francisco and now in Minnesota. And owners are prevented from stopping them. You think this won't spread? > > What the Hell? bill w > _______________________________________________ As you would expect, there is much discussion going on in Retail groups. Locked doors and only allowing one or two customers in at a time. Steel shutters over doors and windows could provide security outside opening hours. Video recording of faces and cars licence plates, etc. A secure room for staff protection and bringing the shutters down would trap the robbers inside for long enough to allow the cops to arrive. Another suggestion was 'catalogue stores' with no stock on display (or perhaps one of each item only) and home delivery. Like a mini-Amazon. Closing stores after several attacks will get the message through to city officials. If the cities lose the rich customers and retail premises tax income they will pay attention eventually and take action to stop criminal behaviour. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Sun Nov 28 15:34:00 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 07:34:00 -0800 Subject: [ExI] very disturbing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003301d7e46d$5dfc1a10$19f44e30$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2021 7:09 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: BillK Subject: Re: [ExI] very disturbing On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 at 01:46, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Mass looting in San Francisco and now in Minnesota. And owners are prevented from stopping them. You think this won't spread? > > What the Hell? bill w > _______________________________________________ >...As you would expect, there is much discussion going on in Retail groups. >...Locked doors and only allowing one or two customers in at a time... Fails because insufficient profit per unit time. Amazon is hauling Chinese-made trinkets by the truckload, each loaded in less than a minute. >...Steel shutters over doors and windows could provide security outside opening hours... This is already done in high-risk places, accepting the prison-like appearance of a retail outlet and possibly chasing away customers who perceive that as a high crime area. >... Video recording of faces and cars licence plates, etc... Ja, useless unless the constabulary will follow up, which usually they will not unless someone is slain, which means an actual felony has taken place or the mayor's daughter's store was hit. >...A secure room for staff protection and bringing the shutters down would trap the robbers inside for long enough to allow the cops to arrive... That has been proposed for pharmacies, but if the undocumented shoppers are still in the store and have nothing in their hands, they haven't actually committed a crime. >...Another suggestion was 'catalogue stores' with no stock on display (or perhaps one of each item only) and home delivery. Like a mini-Amazon... Ja. But if they are in a metro area, they are competing directly with mega-Amazon, who has the trucks and can sometimes get the merch to the prole the same day it was ordered. >...Closing stores after several attacks will get the message through to city officials. If the cities lose the rich customers and retail premises tax income they will pay attention eventually and take action to stop criminal behaviour. BillK That's what we are seeing BillK. To the retailers we can bid adios amigo and scarcely miss them. I haven't been to a traditional retail outlet since I went camping at Mount Rainier and froze my ass off. Afterwards a retailer fixed me up with a new one. But not since then, which has been many years. So we generally don't miss them, as we see former retail outlet buildings being converted to... homeless shelters. The city fathers... oh wait, the city non-lactating... no... the city...em... non-uterus-owning parental units... struggled with the consequences, but this particular town where I live is in good shape because... we have a huge Amazon outlet inside the city limits. Our dear leaders made a controversial tax deal with Mr. Bezos, he located here, saved our municipal asses, so now we don't need the retailers, but we need your building, so adios a-freaking-migos. spike From ben at zaiboc.net Sat Nov 27 20:57:43 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 20:57:43 +0000 Subject: [ExI] DuckDuckGo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9b403463-8961-3869-4df7-58c916971611@zaiboc.net> I saw a troubling sign today. Literally. The sign was on a bus shelter, and it was an advert for DuckDuckGo. I presume some of you here use it instead of the dreaded G-word search engine, and it trumpets how it preserves privacy (the advert features a blurred/pixellated face). The trouble I see is that if they are so big now that they're advertising to the public, they are big enough to be a target for bigger fish to swallow or subvert. So I'm starting to think about lining up some alternatives that are similarly privacy-oriented but still small. Any suggestions? Ben From brent.allsop at gmail.com Sun Nov 28 17:56:01 2021 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:56:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] DuckDuckGo In-Reply-To: <9b403463-8961-3869-4df7-58c916971611@zaiboc.net> References: <9b403463-8961-3869-4df7-58c916971611@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: I guess this is another example of how I?m different. Everyone else doesn?t like when the Jehovah?s Witnesses come knocking, I do, and I love good Fruit cakes ?? as gifts. Everyone else likes to stay private, but not me. I completely dislike anonymous advertisements, for example. 90% of them are a completely irrelevant waste of my time. But Google knows me intimately. They know what I want better than I do. Most all of the adds I get from Google are almost always exactly what I need, when I need it. To me, it is all wonderful. Sure, they make money off this, but I enjoy that too, given all the great free stuff I get from Google. To me, being so private is just selfish. On the eff?n privacy HIPPA form they now have for all the Docs, where it asks who can access my data, I always put everyone, for any reason, forever. Before all this, researchers could do great scientific studies on all the personal data. No more. We could have had covid under much better control, from the start, if everyone would allow tracking apps on their phone. But no, all the selfish bastards need to be private, so more of us end up dying. Doesn?t seem like a good trade off, to me. On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 9:06 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I saw a troubling sign today. Literally. The sign was on a bus shelter, > and it was an advert for DuckDuckGo. > > I presume some of you here use it instead of the dreaded G-word search > engine, and it trumpets how it preserves privacy (the advert features a > blurred/pixellated face). > > The trouble I see is that if they are so big now that they're > advertising to the public, they are big enough to be a target for bigger > fish to swallow or subvert. So I'm starting to think about lining up > some alternatives that are similarly privacy-oriented but still small. > Any suggestions? > > Ben > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Sun Nov 28 18:35:42 2021 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 13:35:42 -0500 Subject: [ExI] DuckDuckGo In-Reply-To: References: <9b403463-8961-3869-4df7-58c916971611@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 12:58 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > To me, being so private is just selfish. On the eff?n privacy HIPPA form > they now have for all the Docs, where it asks who can access my data, I > always put everyone, for any reason, forever. Before all this, researchers > could do great scientific studies on all the personal data. No more. We > could have had covid under much better control, from the start, if everyone > would allow tracking apps on their phone. But no, all the selfish bastards > need to be private, so more of us end up dying. Doesn?t seem like a good > trade off, to me. > Surely you can imagine scenarios where your openness makes you easily exploitable ... you might even convince yourself that you're ok with being a farm animal because conditions are nicer than expected in the wild ... but something (maybe something ineffable) is lost when a wolf is turned into a lapdog. You don't know what activities you may contribute to a blockchain with intent to be fully transparent that might later be retroactively illegal, or otherwise make it easier for an oppressive regime to identify you as a person of interest. Until/unless we are afforded (guaranteed) protection from the future, I'd rather preserve privacy. Call me selfish; I'll own that. :) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Nov 28 18:51:24 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:51:24 -0800 Subject: [ExI] DuckDuckGo In-Reply-To: References: <9b403463-8961-3869-4df7-58c916971611@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <005c01d7e488$f19a5eb0$d4cf1c10$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Brent Allsop via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] DuckDuckGo >? Everyone else likes to stay private, but not me? Hi Brent, I am with you. I also like fruitcake and I reveal everything medical. But now there is more to it than that. Read on please sir. > ?.To me, being so private is just selfish. On the eff?n privacy HIPPA form they now have for all the Docs, where it asks who can access my data? If you meant HIPAA forms, it helps to understand the history behind medical privacy law in the USA and how we got to here. HIPAA hipsters are welcome to comment: much of our current med privacy law evolved during a previous virual pandemic: human immunodeficiency virus, HIV. During the peak years of infection (early 1980s) the legislatures and courts discovered that the 4th amendment applies to all things medical. The whole ?persons, houses, papers and effects? thing was viewed very generally (and rightly so in my opinion.) HIV/AIDS has consequences that are with us to this day, such as? we ended up with insufficient means to track what should have been an excellent early indicator of the behavior of covid (and the two previous SARS outbreaks) dynamics which was the bike rally in Sturgis SD. There we had what looked like the perfect incubator for transmission (and was the reason I didn?t go in 2020.) I went nuts trying to find out what we learned from that, which turned out to be very little because of strong patient privacy rights in the USA which trace back to a number of court decisions (based on 4th amendment considerations (which means they aren?t going to change (because local and state law cannot overrule it or overturn it.)) Long term consequence: the USA is a place with a looooootta lotta international travel all over the globe constantly, lotta advanced hospital equipment, lotta doctors, lotta money, lotta people, plenty of everything except? access to medical records unless the patient takes deliberate action to reveal (a no-op on the part of the patient is presumed no permission to access.) Result: most of the best feedback on the efficacy of vaccines developed in the USA comes from outside our borders, where we know less about the conditions and circumstances. Consequence: what shoulda been a perfect experiment with plentiful and willing lab rats (the bikers) goes to waste. Other countries must tell us how our own vaccines work or don?t work. Note: I am not arguing that the courts should re-examine the privacy rights decisions made 40 yrs ago, nor am I in favor of that. I am not arguing that law should be driven by health emergencies. Privacy is a form of freedom. The freedom of privacy is a right but it has its costs. Sometimes those costs are very high. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Nov 28 14:53:05 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 14:53:05 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Diet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8a06f779-17a0-00c3-ea29-2ef33bcfa0c0@zaiboc.net> On 28/11/2021 01:35, Spike wrote: > Regarding the lifestyle stuff: vegetarianism is probably a good idea > for optimal health. I would dispute that. It's certainly not my experience. Of course, everyone has to find out what works best for them, but I strongly suspect that the current tendency to regard vegetarianism, and especially the extreme variety, as being healthier than meat-eating is a clever piece of 'fake news' promoted by vegetarians. I find it remarkable that the statement "meat is good for you" is controversial. It shouldn't be. I think part of the cleverness bahind this distortion of the facts lies in diverting the meaning of 'meat' to mean, on the whole, highly processed meat. I wouldn't dispute that a lot of highly processed meat isn't good. But 'meat' != 'junk food'. And if it wasn't for meat, we wouldn't be who we are. There would be no Homo Sapiens. These days, I eat a low-carb diet, and eat a ton of meat and dairy products. And I've never been healthier or felt as good in my life. I've spend decades conforming to the accepted wisdom that fat is bad for you, carbs should contribute the majority of your daily calories, and meat is not good, especially red meat. I even became a vegetarian for a while (which was not a good experience). During these decades, I steadily got fatter and less fit and healthy. Since discovering, and experimenting with, the low-carb diet, that trend has reversed. It's almost as if I was getting younger. I'm not, obviously, but that's how it feels. I can honestly say I feel better now than I have in 30 years. Even as a kid and a teenager, my health and general well-being wasn't as good as it is now. So that's why I, personally, dispute the notion that "vegetarianism is probably a good idea for optimal health". And before someone says "but you can be vegetarian and low-carb!", I can only say: Try it. I'm not saying it's impossible, I know it works for some people. But so does calorie-restriction. Anyway, I just wanted to challenge the idea that vegetarianism is an unalloyed good thing, that everyone should take up. It's a story that you shouldn't swallow whole without question, and without finding out what works best for you. ?Ben From spike at rainier66.com Sun Nov 28 19:25:32 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 11:25:32 -0800 Subject: [ExI] DuckDuckGo In-Reply-To: References: <9b403463-8961-3869-4df7-58c916971611@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <007001d7e48d$b64e37a0$22eaa6e0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] DuckDuckGo On Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 12:58 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat > wrote: To me, being so private is just selfish. On the eff?n privacy HIPPA form they now have for all the Docs, where it asks who can access my data, I always put everyone, for any reason, forever? >?Surely you can imagine scenarios where your openness makes you easily exploitable ... you might even convince yourself that you're ok with being a farm animal because conditions are nicer than expected in the wild ... but something (maybe something ineffable) is lost when a wolf is turned into a lapdog? Ja I am aware of some of the risks, but I might not know the full story. I was reminded of this when I discovered that I had signed up for a longevity-related blood test 30 years ago which spanned 30 years. I was really vulnerable to wrongdoers by participating in that, but it seemed legitimate at the time, perhaps too good to be true. But it was true, which indicates it was only good enough to not be good enough to be too good to be true. Had it been any better, it would default to false. >?You don't know what activities you may contribute to a blockchain with intent to be fully transparent that might later be retroactively illegal? Ja. This is the reason I am not a skerjillionaire, the reason plenty of us are not rich today. We were here when Hal Finney was discussing a digital currency, way back in the 90s. I didn?t buy into it because of caution from the stock options experience. During the late 90s, a lot of cap-starved startups paid their eager young employees in stock options and dreams. So many talented young software developers lived on a stipend and millions in options, which were only good if their product caused those options to pay. Mysteriously? the price point of so many stocks settled to exactly the option trade value, making them worth exactly zero point zero. The CEO mysteriously vanished to a condo in Tahiti, where she is likely still sipping mai tais as she relaxes on the beach with nekkid servants bring her food and drink. Then? the US government decided the penniless developers who slaved away for two or more years for nearly nothing now owe tax on the value of the options at the time they were awarded, so they get a huge tax bill on top of being broke and pissed. I imagined BitCoin would somehow end up being taxed in such a way that buyers would end up with a cap gains tax based on the peak value of the currency, since they couldn?t actually prove if I had sold it at that peak. The IRS would be free to assume I had sold it and tax me at that rate. A prole could end up holding a bunch of BitCoin whose collective value is lower than the amount of tax owed on it, even though none of it had been sold. Note that this has still not been fully resolved. This could be an inherent risk to BitCoin or any other cryptocurrency. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Nov 28 19:47:57 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 19:47:57 +0000 Subject: [ExI] DuckDuckGo In-Reply-To: <9b403463-8961-3869-4df7-58c916971611@zaiboc.net> References: <9b403463-8961-3869-4df7-58c916971611@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 at 16:07, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > > I saw a troubling sign today. Literally. The sign was on a bus shelter, > and it was an advert for DuckDuckGo. > > I presume some of you here use it instead of the dreaded G-word search > engine, and it trumpets how it preserves privacy (the advert features a > blurred/pixellated face). > > The trouble I see is that if they are so big now that they're > advertising to the public, they are big enough to be a target for bigger > fish to swallow or subvert. So I'm starting to think about lining up > some alternatives that are similarly privacy-oriented but still small. > Any suggestions? > > Ben > _______________________________________________ I would recommend having links to more than one private search engine as the search results may differ between engines. The problem with big engines like Google is that they tailor their search results using various methods, excluding results that they disapprove of or are disliked by governments and aligning results to your 'bubble' or location. That's why if two different people search Google, they can get different results. The private search engines hide your data, location, etc., and use various engines and techniques to get search results. I mostly use Startpage and Duckduckgo. I like the Startpage 'Anonymous View' proxy link for when you browse websites in the results. BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Nov 28 21:16:31 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 15:16:31 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Diet In-Reply-To: <8a06f779-17a0-00c3-ea29-2ef33bcfa0c0@zaiboc.net> References: <8a06f779-17a0-00c3-ea29-2ef33bcfa0c0@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: I don't remember the article, which was long ago but it was about the Inuits and their huge consumption of fats, like seal fat. I seem to recall that their health was excellent, as was a man's who lived with them for a time. Of course they have spent many generations eating a lot of fat and that may have changed their gut flora substantially to accommodate the fat intake. Then there's epigenetics. Many people have been vegetarians and been healthy for a long time - into their 80s, like Thomas Jefferson - Ben FRanklin, though he did eat fish. (Ben saw that one fish had eaten another one and decided that if they could eat each other, he could eat them - not his finest moment for logic). Not for everyone, though, as you say. bill w On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 1:25 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 28/11/2021 01:35, Spike wrote: > > Regarding the lifestyle stuff: vegetarianism is probably a good idea > > for optimal health. > > I would dispute that. > > It's certainly not my experience. > > Of course, everyone has to find out what works best for them, but I > strongly suspect that the current tendency to regard vegetarianism, and > especially the extreme variety, as being healthier than meat-eating is a > clever piece of 'fake news' promoted by vegetarians. > > I find it remarkable that the statement "meat is good for you" is > controversial. It shouldn't be. I think part of the cleverness bahind > this distortion of the facts lies in diverting the meaning of 'meat' to > mean, on the whole, highly processed meat. I wouldn't dispute that a lot > of highly processed meat isn't good. But 'meat' != 'junk food'. And if > it wasn't for meat, we wouldn't be who we are. There would be no Homo > Sapiens. > > These days, I eat a low-carb diet, and eat a ton of meat and dairy > products. And I've never been healthier or felt as good in my life. I've > spend decades conforming to the accepted wisdom that fat is bad for you, > carbs should contribute the majority of your daily calories, and meat is > not good, especially red meat. I even became a vegetarian for a while > (which was not a good experience). During these decades, I steadily got > fatter and less fit and healthy. Since discovering, and experimenting > with, the low-carb diet, that trend has reversed. It's almost as if I > was getting younger. I'm not, obviously, but that's how it feels. I can > honestly say I feel better now than I have in 30 years. Even as a kid > and a teenager, my health and general well-being wasn't as good as it is > now. > > So that's why I, personally, dispute the notion that "vegetarianism is > probably a good idea for optimal health". > > And before someone says "but you can be vegetarian and low-carb!", I can > only say: Try it. I'm not saying it's impossible, I know it works for > some people. But so does calorie-restriction. > > Anyway, I just wanted to challenge the idea that vegetarianism is an > unalloyed good thing, that everyone should take up. It's a story that > you shouldn't swallow whole without question, and without finding out > what works best for you. > > Ben > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Nov 28 21:21:50 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 13:21:50 -0800 Subject: [ExI] DuckDuckGo In-Reply-To: References: <9b403463-8961-3869-4df7-58c916971611@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <009401d7e49d$f57c2030$e0746090$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ >...I would recommend having links to more than one private search engine ... BillK _______________________________________________ BillK, the problem with that strategy is that Google already knows about my... em... my... well never mind that, I have already suffered through the indignity of knowing there are three or four Googler employees somewhere who sat around on graveyard shift smirking at my search stuff and so they already know about... that. So I get all the targeted advertisements for these... devices... I can't even figure out what they are or how to use them. Latex? Feathers? An electric... eh... a tube of... em... well never mind that either, if I go with an alternative search engine, another three or four employees get to experience gales of derisive laughter at my expense. Unacceptable is this. Google already knows me. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Nov 28 21:22:27 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 15:22:27 -0600 Subject: [ExI] DuckDuckGo In-Reply-To: References: <9b403463-8961-3869-4df7-58c916971611@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: I too don't care a thing about privacy and appreciate the ads I get from Google and Amazon. But- I am on Medicare through a state teacher's thing and no one can take that away from me or add to my contribution. Those who have to shop for their health care might want to take precautions with their data. bill w On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 1:50 PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 at 16:07, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > I saw a troubling sign today. Literally. The sign was on a bus shelter, > > and it was an advert for DuckDuckGo. > > > > I presume some of you here use it instead of the dreaded G-word search > > engine, and it trumpets how it preserves privacy (the advert features a > > blurred/pixellated face). > > > > The trouble I see is that if they are so big now that they're > > advertising to the public, they are big enough to be a target for bigger > > fish to swallow or subvert. So I'm starting to think about lining up > > some alternatives that are similarly privacy-oriented but still small. > > Any suggestions? > > > > Ben > > _______________________________________________ > > > I would recommend having links to more than one private search engine > as the search results may differ between engines. > The problem with big engines like Google is that they tailor their search > results using various methods, excluding results that they disapprove > of or are disliked by governments and aligning results to your > 'bubble' or location. That's why if two different people search > Google, they can get different results. > The private search engines hide your data, location, etc., and use > various engines and techniques to get search results. I mostly use > Startpage > and Duckduckgo. I like the Startpage 'Anonymous View' proxy link for > when you browse websites in the results. > > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Nov 28 21:41:20 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 13:41:20 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Diet In-Reply-To: References: <8a06f779-17a0-00c3-ea29-2ef33bcfa0c0@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <00ba01d7e4a0$aed194f0$0c74bed0$@rainier66.com> >>> Regarding the lifestyle stuff: vegetarianism is probably a good idea > for optimal health. >>?I would dispute that. >>?It's certainly not my experience. >>?Of course, everyone has to find out what works best for them >? On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Diet >?I don't remember the article, which was long ago but it was about the Inuits and their huge consumption of fats? Not for everyone, though, as you say. bill w Both commentators have mentioned something fundamental: everyone is different. The diet industry is generalized. What works for one person is toxic to another. In general, health and diet industry is geared toward those trying to lose weight. What if one is trying to gain weight but cannot? Does that person just reverse everything? Noooooo, not at all. Some of the common diet principles are universal, some are for weight reduction, some are for optimal weight maintenance. Those who have never tried to gain weight don?t understand the challenges faced by those (very few) people who are trying to bulk up a bit. Even with that, high fat diets are really bad for some people but just the ticket for others. I don?t know why the same species varies so much, but I have a theory: it?s because humans have lived all over the planet for long enough that our digestive systems have adapted to local conditions and available food. Now, very suddenly in human history, we can all have food from anywhere on the planet any time we want it and in any quantity (hey cool, suuuuuushiiiiii) which changes the game entirely. I have heard a lot of people say good things about paleo diet, and I personally would still like to see a full costume cave man (and of course cave woman) party with a fire-roasted hog, stone tools only to whack off hunks of flesh, no technologies (including garments (or anything invented in the last half million years (which would preclude anyone taking photos to post on the internet (which would lead to greater freedom of expression (kinda like Burning Man (only? burnier.)))))) That would be a kick in the butt. We would have so much fun, total Lord of the Flies, without the actual? murder. As a huge generality, vegetarian or light meat eating is probably good for the person and good for the planet, but not for everyone for sure. Ben best wishes with that diet, me lad. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Nov 28 21:57:52 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 21:57:52 +0000 Subject: [ExI] DuckDuckGo In-Reply-To: <009401d7e49d$f57c2030$e0746090$@rainier66.com> References: <9b403463-8961-3869-4df7-58c916971611@zaiboc.net> <009401d7e49d$f57c2030$e0746090$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 at 21:25, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > BillK, the problem with that strategy is that Google already knows about > my... em... my... well never mind that, I have already suffered through the > indignity of knowing there are three or four Googler employees somewhere who > sat around on graveyard shift smirking at my search stuff and so they > already know about... that. > > So I get all the targeted advertisements for these... devices... I can't > even figure out what they are or how to use them. Latex? Feathers? An > electric... eh... a tube of... em... well never mind that either, if I go > with an alternative search engine, another three or four employees get to > experience gales of derisive laughter at my expense. Unacceptable is this. > Google already knows me. > > spike > _______________________________________________ Oh dear, where to start? :) It is not just 3 or 4 Google employees smirking. Google sells your data to thousands of advertisers. But if you don't use Google, it doesn't matter what Google knows, you won't get Google ads. Do you still see ads? How quaint! I thought everybody used an ad-blocker with their browser. (It speeds up your browser if it doesn't waste time loading ads to your computer). I didn't say 'alternative' search engine. I said 'private' search engine. Private search engines don't store or use your data in any way Some private search engines may still try to show general ads to you, but the ad-blocker should disappear them. If you like ads, don't want privacy, don't mind your every move being tracked, and don't see any problems associated with that, then obviously there is no need to adjust your internet behaviour. Everybody has their own preferences. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Sun Nov 28 22:39:32 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 14:39:32 -0800 Subject: [ExI] DuckDuckGo In-Reply-To: References: <9b403463-8961-3869-4df7-58c916971611@zaiboc.net> <009401d7e49d$f57c2030$e0746090$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <000d01d7e4a8$d0b54be0$721fe3a0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat ... >>... Google already knows me. > > spike > _______________________________________________ >...Oh dear, where to start? :)... >...Do you still see ads? How quaint! ... BillK _______________________________________________ Hey, I ain't quaint! Oh wait, retract. I am. Were I any quainter, Norman Rockwell would call wanting to use me as a model. He was known to paint quaint. BillK, I don't have all the fancy gewgaws and gimcracks you young fellers have on your computers. I have a terrible attitude when it comes to internet stuff: If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Then I am far too open minded when it comes to defining the situation as ain't broke. Tragic it is. spike From brent.allsop at gmail.com Mon Nov 29 01:47:04 2021 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 18:47:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Martine Rothblatt will speak at the Terasem Colloquium on December 10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I wouldn't miss it. It's on my calendar. Thanks for putting this together, and the reminder. Brent Allsop On Sat, Nov 27, 2021 at 11:57 PM Giulio Prisco wrote: > Turing Church newsletter. Martine Rothblatt will speak at the Terasem > Colloquium on December 10. Other speakers: Susan Schneider, Randal > Koene, Max More, Ken Hayworth, Robert McIntyre. You are invited! > https://www.turingchurch.com/p/martine-rothblatt-will-speak-at-the > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "extropolis" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAKTCJydb2a5hue-GPHn%3DHLkr%3D0fYusOkwtxX98HskS-84%3DK%3DAQ%40mail.gmail.com > . > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ddraig at gmail.com Mon Nov 29 11:49:42 2021 From: ddraig at gmail.com (ddraig@pobox.com) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 22:49:42 +1100 Subject: [ExI] DuckDuckGo In-Reply-To: <007001d7e48d$b64e37a0$22eaa6e0$@rainier66.com> References: <9b403463-8961-3869-4df7-58c916971611@zaiboc.net> <007001d7e48d$b64e37a0$22eaa6e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Nov 2021 at 06:35, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > Ja. This is the reason I am not a skerjillionaire, the reason plenty of > us are not rich today. We were here when Hal Finney was discussing a > digital currency, way back in the 90s. I didn?t buy into it because of > caution from the stock options experience. > I had the same reaction at the time (and I was on the cypherpunks list as well, as were a lot of the people here, I presume), mostly due to the various digital cash attempts in the 90s - digicash, e-gold etc. Another micropayments scheme on the internet? Nothing will come of it. And here we are..... Dwayne -- ddraig at pobox.com ddraigbot / NSO / Connery ...r.e.t.u.r.n....t.o....t.h.e....s.o.u.r.c.e... http://fav.me/dqkgpd our aim is wakefulness, our enemy is dreamless sleep -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Mon Nov 29 12:39:20 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 12:39:20 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Wildfires are erasing Western forests Message-ID: Wildfires are erasing Western forests. Climate change is making it permanent. The evidence is clear: Forests are shifting to scrublands across large swaths of the Western U.S. Nathanael Johnson Sr. Staff Writer Nov 29, 2021 Quotes: The trees were not coming back. In the years following the 2000 Walker Ranch Fire, Tom Veblen, a forest ecologist at the nearby University of Colorado, Boulder, saw that grass and shrubs were regrowing in the charred foothills, but he had to search to find the rare baby version of the tall ponderosa pines that had dominated the area before the fire. ?I kept watching and I was barely seeing any seedlings at all,? Veblen said. The driving force here is that the rising global temperature is wiping out seedlings. In many spots around the U.S. West, summer temperatures are already high enough to cook young trees before they can develop thick protective bark. Others have become so dry that seedlings shrivel before their roots can grow deep enough to reach groundwater. Both circumstances can thwart forest regeneration. Mature trees can survive in these areas long after they stop reproducing. But when fires wipe out these forests and seedings can?t get a foothold, they are replaced with grasses and dense brush. ------------------------- This forest loss is probably also happening in many other countries troubled by increasing forest fires, like Australia and Europe. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Mon Nov 29 13:01:44 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 05:01:44 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Wildfires are erasing Western forests In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002501d7e521$43682860$ca387920$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Wildfires are erasing Western forests >...Wildfires are erasing Western forests. Climate change is making it permanent. The evidence is clear: Forests are shifting to scrublands across large swaths of the Western U.S. Nathanael Johnson Sr. Staff Writer Nov 29, 2021 ... ------------------------- >...This forest loss is probably also happening in many other countries troubled by increasing forest fires, like Australia and Europe. BillK _______________________________________________ BillK, I agree that forest loss is happening, but disagree with the article on why it is happening. For trees, the water patterns are far more important than the temperature. Those are changing as spring runoff is channeled into reservoirs and from there down into population centers. No matter what happens, cities will need water and power. A tech civilization will do whatever is necessary to make that happen. Since we seem to be slow to build nuclear plants and want to move away from burning carbon fuels, this leads to greater reliance on renewables, such as wind and solar, both of which take huge land area. Currently the USA has seething hordes crossing the southern border every day. They come from countries such as Guatemala, where the per capita power use is about 5% what it is here. So in a sense, every person who crosses that border is equivalent to 20 Guatemalans. Every one of them will need water, power, food, a place to live. Western forests are not regrowing, but they would need to go anyway. We don't have room for them. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Nov 29 14:58:46 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 08:58:46 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Wildfires are erasing Western forests In-Reply-To: <002501d7e521$43682860$ca387920$@rainier66.com> References: <002501d7e521$43682860$ca387920$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Western forests are not regrowing, but they would need to go anyway. We don't have room for them.spike *And I think we should be planting trees,perhaps not in the same places. bill w* On Mon, Nov 29, 2021 at 7:04 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat > Subject: [ExI] Wildfires are erasing Western forests > > >...Wildfires are erasing Western forests. Climate change is making it > permanent. > The evidence is clear: Forests are shifting to scrublands across large > swaths of the Western U.S. > Nathanael Johnson Sr. Staff Writer Nov 29, 2021 > > > > > ... > ------------------------- > > >...This forest loss is probably also happening in many other countries > troubled by increasing forest fires, like Australia and Europe. > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > > > > BillK, I agree that forest loss is happening, but disagree with the > article on why it is happening. For trees, the water patterns are far more > important than the temperature. Those are changing as spring runoff is > channeled into reservoirs and from there down into population centers. No > matter what happens, cities will need water and power. A tech civilization > will do whatever is necessary to make that happen. > > Since we seem to be slow to build nuclear plants and want to move away > from burning carbon fuels, this leads to greater reliance on renewables, > such as wind and solar, both of which take huge land area. Currently the > USA has seething hordes crossing the southern border every day. They come > from countries such as Guatemala, where the per capita power use is about > 5% what it is here. So in a sense, every person who crosses that border is > equivalent to 20 Guatemalans. Every one of them will need water, power, > food, a place to live. > > Western forests are not regrowing, but they would need to go anyway. We > don't have room for them. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Nov 29 15:35:47 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 07:35:47 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Wildfires are erasing Western forests In-Reply-To: References: <002501d7e521$43682860$ca387920$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <000e01d7e536$c884a590$598df0b0$@rainier66.com> From: William Flynn Wallace Subject: Re: [ExI] Wildfires are erasing Western forests >>?Western forests are not regrowing, but they would need to go anyway. We don't have room for them.spike >?And I think we should be planting trees,perhaps not in the same places. bill w Where? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Mon Nov 29 16:25:02 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:25:02 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Wildfires are erasing Western forests In-Reply-To: <000e01d7e536$c884a590$598df0b0$@rainier66.com> References: <002501d7e521$43682860$ca387920$@rainier66.com> <000e01d7e536$c884a590$598df0b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Nov 2021 at 15:38, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > From: William Flynn Wallace > Subject: Re: [ExI] Wildfires are erasing Western forests > > >?And I think we should be planting trees,perhaps not in the same places. bill w > > > Where? > > spike > _______________________________________________ As the article says - pine and fir forests require water and cool weather. Where forests have burned, the lower south-facing slopes that are hotter and drier are reverting to brushwood while the tree line is creeping higher up the mountains. So, plant pine trees higher up or plant different tree species more suited to a hotter, drier climate. The research has already been done. See: Climate-Ready Trees for Albuquerque Over 100 tree species are recommended. The result will be different from pine forests, but still attractive. BillK From atymes at gmail.com Mon Nov 29 16:59:15 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 08:59:15 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Wildfires are erasing Western forests In-Reply-To: References: <002501d7e521$43682860$ca387920$@rainier66.com> <000e01d7e536$c884a590$598df0b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 29, 2021 at 8:27 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > As the article says - pine and fir forests require water and cool weather. > Where forests have burned, the lower south-facing slopes that are > hotter and drier are reverting to brushwood while the tree line is > creeping higher up the mountains. > So, plant pine trees higher up or plant different tree species more > suited to a hotter, drier climate. > Higher up is cooler, but is it reliably wetter? I've heard that snow levels have often fallen short of historical trends in recent years. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Mon Nov 29 17:53:53 2021 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 10:53:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] DuckDuckGo In-Reply-To: References: <9b403463-8961-3869-4df7-58c916971611@zaiboc.net> <007001d7e48d$b64e37a0$22eaa6e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: It took a few bubbles, or spikes in price (each one 10x the previous) before I finally started investing in Bitcoin, around $200. Sold a big portion of my IRA... But I hated proof of waste, um, I mean proof of work. It is such a waste, and destroys the environment. Then I heard about new currencies, like bitshares, that are getting off of proof of work consensus algorithms. So I sold all my bitcoin and invested in that and Ether. Was able to quit my day job and hire a team to work on Canonizer.com, so now living the fun life. Just my opinion, but it isn't over yet. In my opinion, Ether or Smart Money is going to pass up bitcoin ("the flipping") and take over the world. Right now both the Bitcoin and Ether networks can't take any more transactions, so only the highest bidders get their transaction in the next block, so people are paying as high $10 and more to pay for transaction and gas fees. But when Eth 2.0 comes out, Ether will be able to scale to Visa level payment system volumes, and the gas price will become cheap, again. Despite the extremely high cost of Gas, today, people are still paying that, to do things on the network. Emagine how many people are going to want to use the network when the price of gas drops by more than 10x, once we are fully on Ether 2.0. Most people in the world Still don't really know anything about crypto. I believe that will change when people realize what smart money is. And unlike Bitcoin, which still prints new inflationary bitcoin to pay for each block of proof of work, Ether now deflates, consuming more ether per block than is paid out. Anyway, just my opinion. And take all this with a grain of salt, as more than 80% of my net worth is invested in Ether, so I'm probably very biased. The singularity is here, after all. The number of and extreme nature of investment opportunities is going to continue to explode, For example Tesla and other AI companies, medical technology companies... are going through the roof, as I'm sure you guys know. You aint seen noth'n yet. On Mon, Nov 29, 2021 at 4:51 AM ddraig--- via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Mon, 29 Nov 2021 at 06:35, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> Ja. This is the reason I am not a skerjillionaire, the reason plenty of >> us are not rich today. We were here when Hal Finney was discussing a >> digital currency, way back in the 90s. I didn?t buy into it because of >> caution from the stock options experience. >> > > I had the same reaction at the time (and I was on the cypherpunks list as > well, as were a lot of the people here, I presume), mostly due to the > various digital cash attempts in the 90s - digicash, e-gold etc. Another > micropayments scheme on the internet? Nothing will come of it. And here we > are..... > > > Dwayne > -- > ddraig at pobox.com ddraigbot / NSO / Connery > ...r.e.t.u.r.n....t.o....t.h.e....s.o.u.r.c.e... > http://fav.me/dqkgpd > > our aim is wakefulness, our enemy is dreamless sleep > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Tue Nov 30 00:18:22 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 19:18:22 -0500 Subject: [ExI] DuckDuckGo In-Reply-To: References: <9b403463-8961-3869-4df7-58c916971611@zaiboc.net> <009401d7e49d$f57c2030$e0746090$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 5:00 PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Oh dear, where to start? :) > It is not just 3 or 4 Google employees smirking. Google sells your > data to thousands of advertisers. > I don't think so. I think Google realizes that the data they hold is their most precious resource, and selling it would devalue it. Instead they offer to use their private data to target their customer's ads. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Tue Nov 30 00:47:06 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 19:47:06 -0500 Subject: [ExI] DuckDuckGo In-Reply-To: <9b403463-8961-3869-4df7-58c916971611@zaiboc.net> References: <9b403463-8961-3869-4df7-58c916971611@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 11:07 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I saw a troubling sign today. Literally. The sign was on a bus shelter, > and it was an advert for DuckDuckGo. > > I presume some of you here use it instead of the dreaded G-word search > engine, and it trumpets how it preserves privacy (the advert features a > blurred/pixellated face). > If you use DuckDuckGo or some other privacy-oriented search engine--which I do--give some thought to the potential privacy issues in your browser, your operating system, your ISP, your email provider, ... The trouble I see is that if they are so big now that they're > advertising to the public, they are big enough to be a target for bigger > fish to swallow or subvert. So I'm starting to think about lining up > some alternatives that are similarly privacy-oriented but still small. > Any suggestions? > I'm still happy with DDG, and I think if they sell out, we'll hear about it. They don't require a login, so their knowledge about users is indirect--they know about activity at the system level, but they can't tie your desktop, laptop, and smartphone activity to a single person. And they don't sell ads, so it'll be pretty obvious if they start. Regarding browser privacy, I've started using Brave, a privacy-oriented Chrome fork. I haven't switched completely yet, but it's been great: better performance than Chrome. They also have their own privacy-oriented search engine, Brave Search . Regarding OS privacy, all I can say is that I don't trust Microsoft or Apple at all. For ISP privacy, try a VPN. We've talked about them here before. Bottom line: there are no perfect solutions and you'll have to trust various products at some point, so choose carefully and don't put all your eggs in one basket. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Nov 30 08:44:10 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 08:44:10 +0000 Subject: [ExI] DuckDuckGo In-Reply-To: References: <9b403463-8961-3869-4df7-58c916971611@zaiboc.net> <009401d7e49d$f57c2030$e0746090$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Nov 2021 at 00:18, Dave Sill wrote: > > On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 5:00 PM BillK via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> >> Oh dear, where to start? :) >> It is not just 3 or 4 Google employees smirking. Google sells your >> data to thousands of advertisers. > > > I don't think so. I think Google realizes that the data they hold is their most precious resource, and selling it would devalue it. Instead they offer to use their private data to target their customer's ads. > > -Dave For legal reasons Google does indeed claim that it doesn't 'sell' all the user data that it collects. For a detailed explanation of how Google monetises and transfers the data without 'selling' it, see: Quote: Google does acknowledge that somewhere in this process, a ?sale? is occurring. It just insists that Google itself isn?t the one selling data. Instead, although Google facilitates the whole process, it places the responsibility of CCPA compliance on website and app publishers. Therefore, in order to opt out of having your data sold by Google?s services, you need to opt out with each individual app and website that you use. Doing so won?t even stop your data from being collected; it will only stop Google from showing you behaviorally targeted ads. ------------ BillK From sparge at gmail.com Tue Nov 30 14:42:09 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 09:42:09 -0500 Subject: [ExI] DuckDuckGo In-Reply-To: References: <9b403463-8961-3869-4df7-58c916971611@zaiboc.net> <009401d7e49d$f57c2030$e0746090$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 3:47 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > For legal reasons Google does indeed claim that it doesn't 'sell' all > the user data that it collects. > For a detailed explanation of how Google monetises and transfers the > data without 'selling' it, see: > < > https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/03/google-says-it-doesnt-sell-your-data-heres-how-company-shares-monetizes-and > > > The data disclosed via this process is very limited. It's nowhere near the family jewels in Google's vault. I'm pretty Brave breaks most of this activity by automatically blocking ads. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Nov 30 21:19:18 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 15:19:18 -0600 Subject: [ExI] living robots Message-ID: In case you missed the story: https://wyss.harvard.edu/news/team-builds-first-living-robots-that-can-reproduce/ bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: