From sparge at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 11:59:17 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 07:59:17 -0400 Subject: [ExI] spam In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 4:59 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I am getting a lot more spam on Gmail than I am used to. When I click on > the spam icon it sometimes asks if I want to unsubscribe. Now my memory is > not good, but I am sure that I did not subscribe to some of these outfits. > Is this new? > No, but it's on the increase. > Are some of these people getting my email address and subscribing me? > Yes. > Some things I have marked as spam keep coming. Is there a better way to > eliminate them than just marking them spam? > Unsubscribe if you can. Mark as spam if they keep coming. You can also create a filter to automatically delete them. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 14:19:10 2021 From: henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com (Henrik Ohrstrom) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 16:19:10 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Crazy electric scooter racing In-Reply-To: <005401d7b5f8$116ecd30$344c6790$@rainier66.com> References: <005401d7b5f8$116ecd30$344c6790$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Airbag for older citizens, they also make airbags for bike and horse use. Really reduces the amount of ouch from a whoops. Highly recommended. https://en.helite.com/hipguard/ Racing on ice is also a thing, actually I think there are a sport like it in US as well. https://www.svemo.se/Sporter/Isracing/ The 5in spikes on the tires make running over your competition a wee bit exiting. Om scooter sized tires it would become more stabby and then also throw the overrunner for even more merriment. /Henrik Den tors 30 sep. 2021 14:42spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> ... Could we make a racing suit with inflatable bladders to pad my aged but still eager hips and elbows? How about if we race on a flat track with plenty of run-out area on the periphery so if we fall off we don't hit a damn wall. Or what if we race them on ice or something? > > spike > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Oct 1 15:00:42 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 08:00:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Crazy electric scooter racing In-Reply-To: References: <005401d7b5f8$116ecd30$344c6790$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001a01d7b6d5$1b938160$52ba8420$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Henrik Ohrstrom via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Crazy electric scooter racing >?Airbag for older citizens? https://en.helite.com/hipguard/ Cool thx Henrik. >?Racing on ice is also a thing, actually I think there are a sport like it in US as well. https://www.svemo.se/Sporter/Isracing/ Ja I have followed it halfheartedly over the years. The commies introduced it back in about the 1950s. It caught on in Canada and Sweden, but I don?t know of other leagues doing full spike ice racing. >?The 5in spikes on the tires make running over your competition a wee bit exiting. If I were going to try something like that, I would do time trials only on an otherwise deserted track. Don?t want no spikes in spike. The American version of that uses bolts instead of spikes and the race is held on a dirt flat track with ice over it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxSiH5VonTE >?Om scooter sized tires it would become more stabby and then also throw the overrunner for even more merriment. /Henrik Ja, again I would only attempt it on a track with no other racers. Good chance I would be OK if I fell off and no one hit me, given a good Kevlar suit. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 15:28:07 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 16:28:07 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Crazy electric scooter racing In-Reply-To: <001a01d7b6d5$1b938160$52ba8420$@rainier66.com> References: <005401d7b5f8$116ecd30$344c6790$@rainier66.com> <001a01d7b6d5$1b938160$52ba8420$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Oct 2021 at 16:05, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > Ja I have followed it halfheartedly over the years. The commies introduced it back in about the 1950s. It caught on in Canada and Sweden, but I don?t know of other leagues doing full spike ice racing. > > If I were going to try something like that, I would do time trials only on an otherwise deserted track. Don?t want no spikes in spike. > > The American version of that uses bolts instead of spikes and the race is held on a dirt flat track with ice over it: > > Ja, again I would only attempt it on a track with no other racers. Good chance I would be OK if I fell off and no one hit me, given a good Kevlar suit. > > spike > _______________________________________________ One thing to bear in mind for the airbags is that after each fall a replacement gas cartridge is required and these aren't cheap. $25 to $30 dollars for motorcyclists, maybe $50-$60 dollars for the hip protectors. That's a good incentive to avoid falls! If you are accident-prone, then body armour and padding may be the better way to go. BillK From ben at zaiboc.net Fri Oct 1 20:46:38 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 21:46:38 +0100 Subject: [ExI] diets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <69d423df-6db1-b2bf-f989-2477a55c5b00@zaiboc.net> On 30/09/2021 19:47, bill w wrote: > A tangential mob are ye Oh, is it Talk Like A Pirate Day? Not that I'm changing the subject or anything. Actually, yesterday was International Blasphemy Day. And I forgot to blaspheme! I hope the gods forgive me. Ben From gadersd at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 21:09:58 2021 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Hermes Trismegistus) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 17:09:58 -0400 Subject: [ExI] diets In-Reply-To: <69d423df-6db1-b2bf-f989-2477a55c5b00@zaiboc.net> References: , <69d423df-6db1-b2bf-f989-2477a55c5b00@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 21:37:07 2021 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 17:37:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] leif erikson day In-Reply-To: <69d423df-6db1-b2bf-f989-2477a55c5b00@zaiboc.net> References: <69d423df-6db1-b2bf-f989-2477a55c5b00@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Speaking of pirates and changing subjects, will anyone be celebrating leif erikson day this year? SR Ballard > On Oct 1, 2021, at 4:49 PM, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > > ?On 30/09/2021 19:47, bill w wrote: >> A tangential mob are ye > > Oh, is it Talk Like A Pirate Day? > > Not that I'm changing the subject or anything. > > Actually, yesterday was International Blasphemy Day. And I forgot to blaspheme! I hope the gods forgive me. > > Ben > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From spike at rainier66.com Fri Oct 1 21:44:20 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 14:44:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] diets In-Reply-To: References: , <69d423df-6db1-b2bf-f989-2477a55c5b00@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <004801d7b70d$7f3cd530$7db67f90$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Hermes Trismegistus via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] diets >?I forgive you, but I cannot speak for my contemporaries. Forgive him? I thought it a compliment! I always wanted to be a tangential mob. Aspired to it as a young solitary tangential?em? whatever one guy in a faceless horde is. Pretty weird looking for sure. Think about it for a minute. Eeesh! And what would be worse? Imagine you?re the only faceful guy in a faceless mob. That would be even creepier. Surely they would be disdainful, but you would have no way of knowing: faceless people are both expressionless and speechless. I don?t even know how they breathe. But regarding blasphemy and pirates: I don?t see how the heck we figure we can even have a reasonably-accurate talk like a pirate day when we assume pirates spoke English, or some odd dialect thereof. Good chance most of them didn?t. The primary language of modern pirates is Somali, and I don?t even know how one blasphemes in that language or even how to translate the universally-accepted term ?arrr.? The mind boggles. In any case, that tangential mob business just has a kind of pleasant mathematical lilt. Hermes, are ye feelin? it, me lad? spike From: Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat Sent: Friday, October 1, 2021 4:49 PM To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Cc: Ben Zaiboc Subject: Re: [ExI] diets On 30/09/2021 19:47, bill w wrote: > A tangential mob are ye Oh, is it Talk Like A Pirate Day? Not that I'm changing the subject or anything. Actually, yesterday was International Blasphemy Day. And I forgot to blaspheme! I hope the gods forgive me. Ben _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 22:04:44 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 15:04:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] diets In-Reply-To: <69d423df-6db1-b2bf-f989-2477a55c5b00@zaiboc.net> References: <69d423df-6db1-b2bf-f989-2477a55c5b00@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 1, 2021, 1:49 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 30/09/2021 19:47, bill w wrote: > > A tangential mob are ye > > Oh, is it Talk Like A Pirate Day? > Y'arr, that be nearly a month ago now. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Oct 1 22:08:21 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 15:08:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] leif erikson day In-Reply-To: References: <69d423df-6db1-b2bf-f989-2477a55c5b00@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <007501d7b710$d97c4a00$8c74de00$@rainier66.com> >...> On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] leif erikson day Speaking of pirates and changing subjects, will anyone be celebrating leif erikson day this year? SR Ballard > On Oct 1, 2021, at 4:49 PM, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ?On 30/09/2021 19:47, bill w wrote: >> A tangential mob are ye > Sure will! He was one of the truly greats of our times, with his career pinnacle role as Lt. Jerry Price in the Mod Squad. He was brilliant, however could never quite get past that show?s introduction, where they tried to explain why the PD hired three hippies as infiltrators in places where the square detectives could not go. The description of the three: ??one white, one black, one blonde?? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kd85Qim_Z6A How the hell are they counting? I am seeing two white, two (more or less) blonde, I?ll give em the one black, but that?s only a third of the description accurate. Upon pointing out the obvious logical fallacy, I was told that in the 60s, the term blonde usually implied female, but I identified as male at that time and I was certainly blonde. Imagine my confusion. The 60s were weird. And so was Leif Erikson, which demonstrates how great an actor he was because he had to play the uptight police lieutenant. What we should have is hippie day. Or perhaps I will just stick with the pirate thing. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 10727 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sat Oct 2 03:22:39 2021 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 23:22:39 -0400 Subject: [ExI] leif erikson day In-Reply-To: <007501d7b710$d97c4a00$8c74de00$@rainier66.com> References: <007501d7b710$d97c4a00$8c74de00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, women are blonde and men are blond. French word. So all ?blonde? people are women and all ?blond? people are men. SR Ballard > On Oct 1, 2021, at 6:15 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > > >...> On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] leif erikson day > > Speaking of pirates and changing subjects, will anyone be celebrating leif erikson day this year? > > SR Ballard > > > On Oct 1, 2021, at 4:49 PM, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > ?On 30/09/2021 19:47, bill w wrote: > >> A tangential mob are ye > > > > > > Sure will! He was one of the truly greats of our times, with his career pinnacle role as Lt. Jerry Price in the Mod Squad. > > He was brilliant, however could never quite get past that show?s introduction, where they tried to explain why the PD hired three hippies as infiltrators in places where the square detectives could not go. The description of the three: ??one white, one black, one blonde?? > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kd85Qim_Z6A > > > > > How the hell are they counting? I am seeing two white, two (more or less) blonde, I?ll give em the one black, but that?s only a third of the description accurate. Upon pointing out the obvious logical fallacy, I was told that in the 60s, the term blonde usually implied female, but I identified as male at that time and I was certainly blonde. Imagine my confusion. The 60s were weird. And so was Leif Erikson, which demonstrates how great an actor he was because he had to play the uptight police lieutenant. > > What we should have is hippie day. > > Or perhaps I will just stick with the pirate thing. > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Oct 2 03:45:33 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 20:45:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] leif erikson day In-Reply-To: References: <007501d7b710$d97c4a00$8c74de00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004e01d7b73f$f4495bf0$dcdc13d0$@rainier66.com> >? On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] leif erikson day >?Spike, women are blonde and men are blond. French word. So all ?blonde? people are women and all ?blond? people are men. >?SR Ballard Well I?ll be danged, thanks for that SR. All these decades on this planet, I never heard of that, but it is good to know that France is going to have the same language problem that we have. The yellow-haired will all be called blondx. I heard another thing today I didn?t know: the Latinos generally do not buy into the whole Latinx business and some find it most annoying. The language hipsters are advised to drop that term now. Thanks SR, see this is why I hang out here all these years: you tolerate my cutting up and I get a free education. spike On Oct 1, 2021, at 6:15 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: ? >...> On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] leif erikson day ? >>?How the hell are they counting? I am seeing two white, two (more or less) blonde?Or perhaps I will just stick with the pirate thing. spike _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Oct 2 13:28:25 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 14:28:25 +0100 Subject: [ExI] See the Internet of the future in 2046 Message-ID: ?Wayforward Machine? provides a glimpse into the future of the web "Imagine a future without access to knowledge..." Ax Sharma - Oct 1, 2021 Quote: The Wayback Machine from the nonprofit Internet Archive remains massively popular among netizens, journalists, and archivists interested in seeing how a webpage looked in the past, even when the page or entire websites are later removed. This week's Internet Archive has come up with a "Wayforward Machine" doing the opposite. Those visiting the Wayback Machine are now greeted with the following banner that claims to take you 25 years into the future. "On the 25th anniversary of the Internet Archive, we?re looking forward to the year 2046. Will we have access to trustworthy information online? Will knowledge be free and open?" states the nonprofit. ------------ The article also has a short 30 second video of what the future web might look like. You will only be allowed to see what Google and Facebook permit. Dystopia approaches! BillK From spike at rainier66.com Sat Oct 2 14:07:50 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 07:07:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] See the Internet of the future in 2046 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002401d7b796$e3210b50$a96321f0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat ... "On the 25th anniversary of the Internet Archive, we?re looking forward to the year 2046. Will we have access to trustworthy information online? Will knowledge be free and open?" states the nonprofit. ------------ >...The article also has a short 30 second video of what the future web might look like. You will only be allowed to see what Google and Facebook permit. Dystopia approaches! BillK _______________________________________________ BillK, that depends on who you ask. The internet majors insist that you will have access to free and trustworthy information online. They will be the final arbiters of what information is trustworthy. spike From spike at rainier66.com Sat Oct 2 14:31:48 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 07:31:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] See the Internet of the future in 2046 In-Reply-To: <002401d7b796$e3210b50$a96321f0$@rainier66.com> References: <002401d7b796$e3210b50$a96321f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002b01d7b79a$3c6d1f70$b5475e50$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: spike at rainier66.com ... >>...The article also has a short 30 second video of what the future web might look like. You will only be allowed to see what Google and Facebook permit. Dystopia approaches! BillK _______________________________________________ >...BillK, that depends on who you ask. The internet majors insist that you will have access to free and trustworthy information online. They will be the final arbiters of what information is trustworthy...spike Think about this: it isn't necessarily the future of information, it's the right now of information. Consider an incident that happened in London last May. A big outdoor party, four guys came in, shot somebody in the head, they bolted, video cameras picked up the trail, the Brits, who have invested heavily in surveillance cameras for law enforcement, followed their vehicle, the bobbies caught em. OK good. That happened in May. The victim was in critical condition, still comatose two weeks later, which is the last news story we heard on her. We heard about the shooter, who pled innocent, because no one at the party was willing to testify. It was a Black Panther Abolish the Police party. They aren't going to testify. Four months later we still don't know if the victim lived or died. I have heard (but don't know if it is true) in England they can catch the perp using video but not convict on video alone. The USA is still struggling with that legal question, some courts going one way, some another (which brings up still more interesting questions.) But I heard the official line in Britain is that it requires an eye witness testimony to convict (which makes sense considering they almost hung John Bates with no eyewitness evidence (and we STILL don't know for sure if he dunnit (Downton Abbey fans, whaddya think?))) BillK, isn't that in your neighborhood? Is the victim alive or dead? How did all that information go completely missing on the internet? Why cannot we find out if Sasha Johnson lived or died? Or something kinda in-between? That's the state of information now. Before we can predict the future we must be able to dict the now. spike From pharos at gmail.com Sat Oct 2 15:31:44 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 16:31:44 +0100 Subject: [ExI] See the Internet of the future in 2046 In-Reply-To: <002b01d7b79a$3c6d1f70$b5475e50$@rainier66.com> References: <002401d7b796$e3210b50$a96321f0$@rainier66.com> <002b01d7b79a$3c6d1f70$b5475e50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 2 Oct 2021 at 15:36, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > Think about this: it isn't necessarily the future of information, it's the right now of information. > > BillK, isn't that in your neighborhood? Is the victim alive or dead? How did all that information go completely missing on the internet? Why cannot we find out if Sasha Johnson lived or died? Or something kinda in-between? > > That's the state of information now. Before we can predict the future we must be able to dict the now. > > spike > _______________________________________________ That's the point of internet censorship. If the public don't even hear about the bad stuff going around then they won't complain or interfere with the authorities. The mainstream press is not much interested in black-on-black shootings. They only get a day or two in mainstream news. If you do a deep search you can dredge up a bit more internet information, but really it is only the local black community that's interested. So when they protest and rage, people outside their community don't know what is going on and wonder why they are making such a big disturbance. In this particular case, Wikipedia has an entry on Sasha Johnson that is fairly up-to-date. The local black press has more info, but even there it is not headline news, you have to search the website. She was shot in the head and was critical, but apparently is now stable, though undergoing operations and probably has life-changing injuries. Four black men (three of them teenagers) have been charged and are in custody awaiting trial. They will appear in court in November to enter a plea and the trial will be next March. The police will be gathering evidence and preparing their case, but the public won't hear anything about evidence or witnesses before the trial. BillK From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 00:27:42 2021 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 20:27:42 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Call for NFT makers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a friend who makes amazing neural network images, I'll ask him On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 2:55 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I have recently been asked to commission some artists to create > Non-Fungible Tokens for auction. I suspect there may be some members of > this list who might be able to make these, and interested in making a bit > of somewhat-quick cash. > > The requestor is Foundation For The Future, to auction at their gala on > October 21: https://www.f4f.space/gala . The requested theme is > near-Earth space industry: lunar mining, space-based solar power > satellites, et cetera. > > Key points for those considering participation: > * You'll be paid a percentage of what the NFT you make auctions for (exact > percentage to be disclosed to those who inquire and are seriously > considering doing this). Most of the money from the auction goes to the > Foundation charity, as this is a fundraiser for them. (If your NFT doesn't > sell, then you - and they - get nothing.) > * If your NFT sells, they pay me and then I pay you. I'll set this up > through my business entity Winged Cat Solutions, which exists in part for > this kind of project. I can't predict how quickly they will pay, but once > I get the funds I will send my checks out ASAP. > * These NFTs are to be generated specifically for this gala. They're not > to be part of some other series. (The exclusivity is part of the value of > these unique items.) > * These must be complete NFTs. Just the art isn't enough. If you can > make good art but can't make NFTs, you may partner with someone who can; > make whatever arrangements you want between you, but my primary point of > contact should be the person making the NFT. > * The Foundation must be in possession of the NFT, and know how to > transfer it, before the auction (possibly a few days before; I can ask if > it looks like it will matter). This is easy for physical components (ship > so that they receive them before the auction); for electronic, I phrase it > this way because different NFT systems have different rules for what > constitutes "possession" and how to transfer it. > * If you have relevant cred that the audience might have heard of, I can > tell the auctioneers to mention your name when auctioning the NFT you make > so as to try to increase its value. (I'm looking first and foremost at > Keith Henson with this point, but not only at Keith. For instance, Natasha > - if participating - could no doubt craft an impressive list of > associations and relevant work for the auctioneers to read off.) > > Anyone who's interested and may have time to create one or more NFTs in > time for the gala, please contact me offlist. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Oct 3 13:38:08 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 06:38:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] dna bank Message-ID: <002f01d7b85b$e7124d30$b536e790$@rainier66.com> Polymerase Chain Reaction allows us to duplicate a strand of DNA arbitrarily many times, then we can chemically infer its structure. It is not clear to the public that current technology does not read every base pair in a DNA strand, but only infers it after several generations of PCR. We have long spoken of creating a human archive of DNA somehow. Old DNA is of enormous value to archaeologists and anthropologists, so the rare case where it is preserved is a priceless jewel. It occurred to me while at a fund-raiser last weekend that very few people carry currency anymore. Even fundraisers use those portable credit card readers. But paper currency would be an excellent DNA bank if it has been circulated. We know that paper currency is made of cotton and flax, but that wouldn?t matter if we had the technology to find individual human skin cells on the currency. We could use well-circulated paper money as a low-cost human DNA bank. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 15:01:51 2021 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 09:01:51 -0600 Subject: [ExI] dna bank In-Reply-To: <002f01d7b85b$e7124d30$b536e790$@rainier66.com> References: <002f01d7b85b$e7124d30$b536e790$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Simpsons did it in 1995. "What do you got, the whole town's DNA on file?" "Yuh-huh. If you've ever handled a penny, the government's got your DNA. Why do you think they keep them in circulation?" On Sun, Oct 3, 2021 at 7:41 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > Polymerase Chain Reaction allows us to duplicate a strand of DNA > arbitrarily many times, then we can chemically infer its structure. It is > not clear to the public that current technology does not read every base > pair in a DNA strand, but only infers it after several generations of PCR. > > > > We have long spoken of creating a human archive of DNA somehow. Old DNA > is of enormous value to archaeologists and anthropologists, so the rare > case where it is preserved is a priceless jewel. > > > > It occurred to me while at a fund-raiser last weekend that very few people > carry currency anymore. Even fundraisers use those portable credit card > readers. But paper currency would be an excellent DNA bank if it has been > circulated. We know that paper currency is made of cotton and flax, but > that wouldn?t matter if we had the technology to find individual human skin > cells on the currency. We could use well-circulated paper money as a > low-cost human DNA bank. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Oct 3 15:33:39 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 08:33:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] dna bank In-Reply-To: References: <002f01d7b85b$e7124d30$b536e790$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002b01d7b86c$0a630800$1f291800$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Darin Sunley via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] dna bank >>?We could use well-circulated paper money as a low-cost human DNA bank. spike >?Simpsons did it in 1995. >?"What do you got, the whole town's DNA on file?" >?"Yuh-huh. If you've ever handled a penny, the government's got your DNA. Why do you think they keep them in circulation?" Darin, proto-pirates are these ?Simpsons.? They steal all my best ideas, but are so sneaky, they do it before I even come up with them. I used to watch the Simpsons back when I had TV, and found it funny. There is some sophisticated humor in there among the goofy stuff. I like the idea of using metal currency, for then you wouldn?t need to isolate it from the DNA in the cotton and flax. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 07:39:22 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 08:39:22 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Facebook Whistleblower's New 60 Minutes Interview Message-ID: 9 Horrifying Facts From the Facebook Whistleblower's New 60 Minutes Interview You knew Facebook was making the world shittier, but it's so much worse than you realized. By Matt Novak 3 Oct 2021 Quote: Fundamentally, Haugen alleges there?s a key conflict between what?s good for Facebook and what?s good for society at large. At the end of the day, things that are good for Facebook tend to be bad for the world we live in, according to Haugen. ---------- I liked one of the reader comments at the foot of the article: Alfred-WhyDidYouSayThatName 10/04/21 12:07am It kind of feels like hearing that cigarette companies knew their product caused cancer or that oil companies knew that global warming was an issue for decades while they lied and sowed doubt. The actual damage they?re doing isn?t the part of it that?s news, it?s that they were fully aware of it all along. --------------- BillK From spike at rainier66.com Mon Oct 4 14:07:26 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 07:07:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Facebook Whistleblower's New 60 Minutes Interview In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002301d7b929$297e4de0$7c7ae9a0$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Facebook Whistleblower's New 60 Minutes Interview >...9 Horrifying Facts From the Facebook Whistleblower's New 60 Minutes Interview You knew Facebook was making the world shittier, but it's so much worse than you realized. By Matt Novak 3 Oct 2021 Quote: >...Fundamentally, Haugen alleges there?s a key conflict between what?s good for Facebook and what?s good for society at large. At the end of the day, things that are good for Facebook tend to be bad for the world we live in, according to Haugen... BillK ---------- BillK, this is all much more understandable if you recognize the primary focus of business and government is not to help people, but rather to make money and seize power. Business is about making money. Government is about seizing power. Once you understand that, everything makes perfect sense. They don't want to harm people, they are fine with helping people. But... it is about money and power. For that reason I dispute the comment from the article: ?Protecting our community is more important than maximizing our profits,? Lena Pietsch {Facebook} told Gizmodo via email Sunday night. No, madam. FaceBook, Twitter, Fox News, well all the news agencies actually, every business is about money. Every political party is about power. It really is exactly that simple. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 14:31:30 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 09:31:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Facebook Whistleblower's New 60 Minutes Interview In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Social media; all they are doing is letting people be people and making money from it, fulfilling the American Dream. Granted, it's not like it's the top of the curve people, but why don't they get a chance at their kind of dream - famous for 15 minutes? Now you are asking these media to be arbiters of what's ethical or moral or dangerous or true. I think that may be more dangerous than what idiots say. If people can't tell idiots from non-idiots, how is that Facebook's fault? Or any media's fault - paranoids and idiots and so on can get crazy ideas from lots of places. New York Times, Wall Street Journal.......... bill w On Mon, Oct 4, 2021 at 2:43 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > 9 Horrifying Facts From the Facebook Whistleblower's New 60 Minutes > Interview > You knew Facebook was making the world shittier, but it's so much > worse than you realized. > By Matt Novak 3 Oct 2021 > > < > https://gizmodo.com/9-horrifying-facts-from-the-facebook-whistleblowers-new-1847791184 > > > > Quote: > Fundamentally, Haugen alleges there?s a key conflict between what?s > good for Facebook and what?s good for society at large. At the end of > the day, things that are good for Facebook tend to be bad for the > world we live in, according to Haugen. > ---------- > > I liked one of the reader comments at the foot of the article: > > Alfred-WhyDidYouSayThatName 10/04/21 12:07am > It kind of feels like hearing that cigarette companies knew their > product caused cancer or that oil companies knew that global warming > was an issue for decades while they lied and sowed doubt. The actual > damage they?re doing isn?t the part of it that?s news, it?s that they > were fully aware of it all along. > --------------- > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 15:27:08 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 16:27:08 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Facebook Whistleblower's New 60 Minutes Interview In-Reply-To: <002301d7b929$297e4de0$7c7ae9a0$@rainier66.com> References: <002301d7b929$297e4de0$7c7ae9a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Oct 2021 at 15:12, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat > Subject: [ExI] Facebook Whistleblower's New 60 Minutes Interview > > BillK, this is all much more understandable if you recognize the primary focus of business and government is not to help people, but rather to make money and seize power. Business is about making money. Government is about seizing power. Once you understand that, everything makes perfect sense. They don't want to harm people, they are fine with helping people. But... it is about money and power. > > For that reason I dispute the comment from the article: > > ?Protecting our community is more important than maximizing our profits,? Lena Pietsch {Facebook} told Gizmodo via email Sunday night. > > No, madam. FaceBook, Twitter, Fox News, well all the news agencies actually, every business is about money. Every political party is about power. It really is exactly that simple. > > spike > _______________________________________________ Oh, I understand it OK. Just like I understand what the Mafia, drug dealers, ransomware gangs and Nigerian scam gangs do. I'd just rather stop them from harming people, even if it reduces their profit a bit. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Mon Oct 4 15:57:37 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 08:57:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Facebook Whistleblower's New 60 Minutes Interview In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001801d7b938$8e9c15e0$abd441a0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Facebook Whistleblower's New 60 Minutes Interview >?Social media?Now you are asking these media to be arbiters of what's ethical or moral or dangerous or true. I think that may be more dangerous than what idiots say... bill w BillW, these media are not even so much arbiters, but rather the most successful ones are the ones which are society?s mirror. Consider the three US news majors: FoxNews, MSNBC and CNN. Their viewership, and by extension the value of their ad space, is measured by Nielsen meters. I and my family used to carry those for a coupla years, but we don?t have TV so they seldom got any signal from us. That too is valuable information for advertisers, but really what they want to know is the prime time prime audience, the 25 to 49 demographic which spends the most. In all of prime time FoxNews crushes its rivals, with more market share than the other majors combined. So? consider the content on Fox: lots of crime stories, UFO stuff, and so forth. For the past coupla weeks, they have been running as the lede story a young couple on a cross-country road trip, got in a fight, she was found dead, manhunt for him. Scarcely newsworthy, ja? On the contrary, newsworthy indeed, which is why it is the lede there: FoxNews prints what sells. Their Nielsen reports suggest road-trip girl sells like hotcakes, and their internet clicks and duration data confirm this. The UFO stories sell. The anti-vax stuff sells. Their content beats the competitors combined. So? they run it. FoxNews has no political opinion, they are about making money. And they are succeeding. Our news agencies are a mirror of who we are. We don?t always like what we see, but there it is. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Oct 4 16:12:35 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 09:12:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Facebook Whistleblower's New 60 Minutes Interview In-Reply-To: References: <002301d7b929$297e4de0$7c7ae9a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002f01d7b93a$a5adee00$f109ca00$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Sent: Monday, October 4, 2021 8:27 AM Subject: Re: [ExI] Facebook Whistleblower's New 60 Minutes Interview On Mon, 4 Oct 2021 at 15:12, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > .... > >>.... No, madam. FaceBook, Twitter, Fox News, well all the news agencies actually, every business is about money. Every political party is about power. It really is exactly that simple. > > spike > _______________________________________________ >...Oh, I understand it OK. Just like I understand what the Mafia, drug dealers, ransomware gangs and Nigerian scam gangs do. I'd just rather stop them from harming people, even if it reduces their profit a bit. BillK _______________________________________________ They cannot be stopped in my opinion. One way or another, news media people and internet moguls will figure out how to maximize profits, regardless of our opinion on who gets harmed. It is well-known that FaceBook, SnapChat, Twitter, Instagram and most recently TikTok, among others, are generally bad influences on young people and compel them to do self-destructive behaviors. I just haven't convinced myself there is any way to stop them. There is no way to stop platforms from carrying user-generated content. No matter what roadblocks we try to put in their way, they will find a way around it, over it, under it or thru it. Just as the internet-trained AI quickly comes to resemble a most distasteful person, the internet in general reflects humanity as it is. spike From bronto at pobox.com Mon Oct 4 16:34:47 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 09:34:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Facebook Whistleblower's New 60 Minutes Interview In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > 9 Horrifying Facts From the Facebook Whistleblower's New 60 Minutes Interview > You knew Facebook was making the world shittier, but it's so much > worse than you realized. > By Matt Novak 3 Oct 2021 A tweet this morning summarized it thus: "Facebook 'whistleblower' complains that Facebook did not censor enough" I have not read the thing; if you have, is this summary unfair? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Mon Oct 4 20:24:26 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 13:24:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] data coming Message-ID: <002601d7b95d$d4ab6b60$7e024220$@rainier66.com> An interesting discussion took place in this forum a few months ago when someone questioned my assertion that the US government does not have the authority to compel anyone to take a vaccine. Turns out this is true: the US constitution Amendment 4 insures that no one may be compelled to turn over their medical records, and it isn't much of a surprise that vaccines may not be mandated. However. the Occupational Safety and Health bureaucracy can require companies to require its employees to produce proof of vaccination. The company is not required to verify the proof is genuine, only that the employee has proof of vaccination. In the USA, the supply of the covid vaccine is not a problem: anyone can get a vax at any location offering them, at no cost, even if the person has no health insurance. The process requires no photo ID (they didn't ask for mine.) This last part is important, for they cannot demand photo ID. If a teenage junky shows up claiming to be John Smith, birthdate 2-28-50, she gets the vaccination and a vaccination proof card like this one: OK then, we know that in the USA if anyone needs proof of vaccination, they can hire a teenage junky to get that, and as far as I can tell there would be no practical repercussions for doing that. These are not photo ID and they are not currency, so even if it violates the spirit of the requirement, there are no laws broken there. The state legislatures have not passed any laws with regard to requiring that proof of vaccine must be proof that the person whose name is on the proof of vaccine card is the person who took the vaccine. I learned yesterday that a vaccine card like this one, like the one I received, can be used to enter the vaccine into one's medical record. With all that, if we hear anyone say they suffered adverse health effects from the vaccine they were forced to take in order to keep their job, I would say to the contrary, no one is forced to take the vaccine in order to keep their job. They are only required to have proof of having taken the vaccine, which is not required to be genuine, and cannot be, for companies are not required to verify (and cannot verify in any case) that the card is genuine. OK. Once I let that sink in, I have a conjecture I will share in my next post, some interesting data I think will come out of all this. Commentary welcome. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 34914 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 20:48:30 2021 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 14:48:30 -0600 Subject: [ExI] data coming In-Reply-To: <002601d7b95d$d4ab6b60$7e024220$@rainier66.com> References: <002601d7b95d$d4ab6b60$7e024220$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Wrinkle: someone whose unvaccinated status rests on (to their mind legitimate) concerns about its long-term safety is on ethically dicey ground if they incentivize someone else to take it. On Mon, Oct 4, 2021 at 2:27 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > An interesting discussion took place in this forum a few months ago when > someone questioned my assertion that the US government does not have the > authority to compel anyone to take a vaccine. Turns out this is true: the > US constitution Amendment 4 insures that no one may be compelled to turn > over their medical records, and it isn?t much of a surprise that vaccines > may not be mandated. > > > > However? the Occupational Safety and Health bureaucracy can require > companies to require its employees to produce proof of vaccination. > > > > The company is not required to verify the proof is genuine, only that the > employee has proof of vaccination. > > > > In the USA, the supply of the covid vaccine is not a problem: anyone can > get a vax at any location offering them, at no cost, even if the person has > no health insurance. The process requires no photo ID (they didn?t ask for > mine.) This last part is important, for they cannot demand photo ID. If a > teenage junky shows up claiming to be John Smith, birthdate 2-28-50, she > gets the vaccination and a vaccination proof card like this one: > > > > > > > > OK then, we know that in the USA if anyone needs proof of vaccination, > they can hire a teenage junky to get that, and as far as I can tell there > would be no practical repercussions for doing that. These are not photo ID > and they are not currency, so even if it violates the spirit of the > requirement, there are no laws broken there. The state legislatures have > not passed any laws with regard to requiring that proof of vaccine must be > proof that the person whose name is on the proof of vaccine card is the > person who took the vaccine. > > > > I learned yesterday that a vaccine card like this one, like the one I > received, can be used to enter the vaccine into one?s medical record. > > > > With all that, if we hear anyone say they suffered adverse health effects > from the vaccine they were forced to take in order to keep their job, I > would say to the contrary, no one is forced to take the vaccine in order to > keep their job. They are only required to have proof of having taken the > vaccine, which is not required to be genuine, and cannot be, for companies > are not required to verify (and cannot verify in any case) that the card is > genuine. > > > > OK. Once I let that sink in, I have a conjecture I will share in my next > post, some interesting data I think will come out of all this. > > > > Commentary welcome. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 34914 bytes Desc: not available URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 20:50:58 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 15:50:58 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Facebook Whistleblower's New 60 Minutes Interview In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: the internet in general reflects humanity as it is - spike The very first and most important thing that can kill a psych study is inadequate, flawed, biased, etc. samples, which is what we get on the media - all of them. I know a lot of people hate polling, but it's probably the most accurate description of what's out there and who believes what. Some of the polls, anyway - the independent ones who know how to write objective questions, unlike the political polls which ask biased and leading questions. So, the media reflect what *some* of humanity is like. How representative those are is highly debatable. One percent of the population is schizoid or related. Three percent are mentally retarded. Up to one third are neurotic and easily influenced by fears, groundless though they may be. bill w On Mon, Oct 4, 2021 at 12:18 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > 9 Horrifying Facts From the Facebook Whistleblower's New 60 Minutes > Interview > > You knew Facebook was making the world shittier, but it's so much > > worse than you realized. > > By Matt Novak 3 Oct 2021 > > A tweet this morning summarized it thus: "Facebook 'whistleblower' > complains that Facebook did not censor enough" > > I have not read the thing; if you have, is this summary unfair? > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Oct 4 21:08:29 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 14:08:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] data coming In-Reply-To: <002601d7b95d$d4ab6b60$7e024220$@rainier66.com> References: <002601d7b95d$d4ab6b60$7e024220$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008501d7b963$fb6db1d0$f2491570$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Subject: data coming >>. If a teenage junky shows up claiming to be John Smith, birthdate 2-28-50, she gets the vaccination and a vaccination proof card like this one: >.Wrinkle: someone whose unvaccinated status rests on (to their mind legitimate) concerns about its long-term safety is on ethically dicey ground if they incentivize someone else to take it. Certainly that of course, but let me go another way with it. I have a card, but suppose my friend doesn't and refuses to get the vaccine for reasons irrelevant to me, she will not. But she doesn't want to lose her job, for if she does, then she will soon be homeless and will likely die prematurely from the hardships of such a harsh lifestyle. I could easily take my card, put a piece of white tape over my name, write hers in that line, substitute her birthday if we consider it necessary, print out a copy on my own printer on card stock (I have plenty of that) and then she presents the card, keeps her job and I saved her life (from starvation or the inherent risk of harlotry and homelessness, etc.) I haven't committed counterfeiting, for a vaccination card isn't currency. There are no laws on the books with regard to those things. Let's go back to the teenage junky for the sake of argument. Suppose she sets up shop after recognizing that getting these jabs is a less risky business (and pays better) than the other things she jabs herself with or allows herself to be jabbed with for money. She realizes she can sell her arm for a hundred bucks a shot rather than whatever else she is selling for fifty, so she shows up at the local free vaccine clinic four or five times a day. The workers there know what is going on, but they may not require photo ID and may not even call the police, for the store employees cannot even stop shoplifting in progress, going on right there. So. the teenage junky makes plenty of money while generating a dataset I am interested in knowing. But let's go yet another way. Imagine someone who heard a former POTUS encourage the vaccine with the words ".get the shot! I did it! It's goooood!" and is convinced that if anyone demonstrates how safe they are, that more people will get the shot, which would save lives. We don't know what happens if someone gets 100 of these vaccines in a span of a coupla months, but. perhaps everyone here would like to know. So. this hypothetical person who imagines himself a brave altruistic dartboard gets a shot a day, carefully documents each one with a photo of the needle going into his Harley Davidson tattoo, time stamped and documented with a selfie. Then he goes on Twitter to encourage the proletariat that "I did 100 of these things, and here I am! I did it, it's good!" There you have the means and the motive. My speculation is that any day now, we will be hearing from someone who has received 100 vaccines. Then we get a valuable datum. Any speculations on what happens if someone gets 100 of these vaccines? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 10461 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pharos at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 21:10:44 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 22:10:44 +0100 Subject: [ExI] data coming In-Reply-To: References: <002601d7b95d$d4ab6b60$7e024220$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Oct 2021 at 21:52, Darin Sunley via extropy-chat wrote: > > Wrinkle: someone whose unvaccinated status rests on (to their mind legitimate) concerns about its long-term safety is on ethically dicey ground if they incentivize someone else to take it. > > _______________________________________________ There are also the unvaccinated who have caught COVID and recovered. (Most infected only have a fairly trivial illness). They have all the anti-bodies required, probably more than a vaccinated person. But they don't have a vaccination certificate. BillK From atymes at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 21:24:56 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 14:24:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Facebook 2018 changes made users more divisive and angry In-Reply-To: <001401d7b618$b155cea0$14016be0$@rainier66.com> References: <005701d7b5f9$faf89c00$f0e9d400$@rainier66.com> <8ec3576b-e829-8dbc-1fbf-ee8f7a6c91ce@pobox.com> <001401d7b618$b155cea0$14016be0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 9:34 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > what it is (USA) what it shoulda been (everywhere) > > 1e3 thousand kilo > 1e6 million million > 1e9 billion giga > 1e12 trillion billion > 1e15 quadrillion peta > 1e18 quintillion trillion > 1e21 sextillion zetta > 1e24 septillion quadrillion > Why leave out mega, tera, et al? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 21:29:25 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 14:29:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Facebook 2018 changes made users more divisive and angry In-Reply-To: <002001d7b61a$00af91b0$020eb510$@rainier66.com> References: <005701d7b5f9$faf89c00$f0e9d400$@rainier66.com> <8ec3576b-e829-8dbc-1fbf-ee8f7a6c91ce@pobox.com> <002001d7b61a$00af91b0$020eb510$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 9:43 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Not everyone on that street wanted to sell their Palo Alto property, even > for thrice its fair market value, and they didn?t want to find themselves > living in the middle of a secured private FaceBook compound. > > I didn?t understand that of course > One's home is one's home, and for many people has a value beyond money. In those cases there is no fair market value (stated values for taxes and mortgages aside) so long as the owner is not forced to sell it. Zuckerberg's billions lack the legal power to force such sales. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Oct 4 22:00:24 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 15:00:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Facebook 2018 changes made users more divisive and angry In-Reply-To: References: <005701d7b5f9$faf89c00$f0e9d400$@rainier66.com> <8ec3576b-e829-8dbc-1fbf-ee8f7a6c91ce@pobox.com> <001401d7b618$b155cea0$14016be0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002a01d7b96b$3c150a10$b43f1e30$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Sent: Monday, October 4, 2021 2:25 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: Adrian Tymes Subject: Re: [ExI] Facebook 2018 changes made users more divisive and angry On Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 9:34 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: what it is (USA) what it shoulda been (everywhere) 1e3 thousand kilo 1e6 million million 1e9 billion giga 1e12 trillion billion 1e15 quadrillion peta 1e18 quintillion trillion 1e21 sextillion zetta 1e24 septillion quadrillion >?Why leave out mega, tera, et al? People are too reluctant to use those terms for money, so we continue with a terrible system where far too many people don?t know how to distinguish between a million, a billion and a trillion. There are trillionaires in the world of course, just not with American dollars. It seems like in a lotta ways, the US is now where Zimbabwe was in 2008. Our government keeps insisting that 3.5 trillion costs nothing, it won?t cost taxpayers anything, except those who make over 400k and those who buy anything from corporations. They will pay for it all, but the top line doesn?t matter because it doesn?t cost anything, we are assured. Well? What I perceive here is that Keynesian economic theory is being put to the test. I have always found the Hayek school of thought much more compelling, for it predicts that 3.5 trillion in government spending costs 3.5 trillion plus interest. The Keynesian school predicts it costs nothing. Part of our problem is we have rhyming words for numbers that differ by three orders of magnitude. It might fix that if we had the rhyming words differ by six orders. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 22:38:52 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2021 09:38:52 +1100 Subject: [ExI] data coming In-Reply-To: <002601d7b95d$d4ab6b60$7e024220$@rainier66.com> References: <002601d7b95d$d4ab6b60$7e024220$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Oct 2021 at 07:26, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > An interesting discussion took place in this forum a few months ago when > someone questioned my assertion that the US government does not have the > authority to compel anyone to take a vaccine. Turns out this is true: the > US constitution Amendment 4 insures that no one may be compelled to turn > over their medical records, and it isn?t much of a surprise that vaccines > may not be mandated. > > > > However? the Occupational Safety and Health bureaucracy can require > companies to require its employees to produce proof of vaccination. > > > > The company is not required to verify the proof is genuine, only that the > employee has proof of vaccination. > > > > In the USA, the supply of the covid vaccine is not a problem: anyone can > get a vax at any location offering them, at no cost, even if the person has > no health insurance. The process requires no photo ID (they didn?t ask for > mine.) This last part is important, for they cannot demand photo ID. If a > teenage junky shows up claiming to be John Smith, birthdate 2-28-50, she > gets the vaccination and a vaccination proof card like this one: > > > > > > > > OK then, we know that in the USA if anyone needs proof of vaccination, > they can hire a teenage junky to get that, and as far as I can tell there > would be no practical repercussions for doing that. These are not photo ID > and they are not currency, so even if it violates the spirit of the > requirement, there are no laws broken there. The state legislatures have > not passed any laws with regard to requiring that proof of vaccine must be > proof that the person whose name is on the proof of vaccine card is the > person who took the vaccine. > > > > I learned yesterday that a vaccine card like this one, like the one I > received, can be used to enter the vaccine into one?s medical record. > > > > With all that, if we hear anyone say they suffered adverse health effects > from the vaccine they were forced to take in order to keep their job, I > would say to the contrary, no one is forced to take the vaccine in order to > keep their job. They are only required to have proof of having taken the > vaccine, which is not required to be genuine, and cannot be, for companies > are not required to verify (and cannot verify in any case) that the card is > genuine. > > > > OK. Once I let that sink in, I have a conjecture I will share in my next > post, some interesting data I think will come out of all this. > > > > Commentary welcome. > No-one expects 100% compliance no matter what combination of enticements and sanctions is used. The aim is to get as high a proportion of the population as possible vaccinated. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 34914 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Oct 4 23:17:55 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 16:17:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] data coming In-Reply-To: References: <002601d7b95d$d4ab6b60$7e024220$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001001d7b976$1085e990$3191bcb0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat ? >>?OK. Once I let that sink in, I have a conjecture I will share in my next post, some interesting data I think will come out of all this. Commentary welcome. >?No-one expects 100% compliance no matter what combination of enticements and sanctions is used. The aim is to get as high a proportion of the population as possible vaccinated. -- Stathis Papaioannou Ja, certainly, but the data I am looking for isn?t 100% compliance, but rather what happens if the same person takes 100 vaccinations. It hasn?t even occurred to those losing their jobs that one can just make up a fake vaccine card, but we can be sure that plenty of people did think of that and already did it. There are no legal repercussions from it that I can think of. Stathis, what would you speculate would happen to someone who maxes the vaxes? At some point does the immune system start to make covid-like symptoms? What if one is a lucky soul who didn?t even notice any symptoms? That would be a perfect candidate for becoming a dartboard, either as a profession or as an altruistic volunteer looking to encourage the masses that it is perfectly safe. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 23:38:09 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2021 00:38:09 +0100 Subject: [ExI] data coming In-Reply-To: <001001d7b976$1085e990$3191bcb0$@rainier66.com> References: <002601d7b95d$d4ab6b60$7e024220$@rainier66.com> <001001d7b976$1085e990$3191bcb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Oct 2021 at 00:22, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > > > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > > It hasn?t even occurred to those losing their jobs that one can just make up a fake vaccine card, but we can be sure that plenty of people did think of that and already did it. There are no legal repercussions from it that I can think of. > > spike > _______________________________________________ Hmmmm. If you do a search for fake vaccine card there are many results saying that they are available on the internet, the FBI is impounding any found and people are facing federal fraud charges. That sounds like legal repercussions to me. BillK From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 23:40:46 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2021 10:40:46 +1100 Subject: [ExI] data coming In-Reply-To: <001001d7b976$1085e990$3191bcb0$@rainier66.com> References: <002601d7b95d$d4ab6b60$7e024220$@rainier66.com> <001001d7b976$1085e990$3191bcb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Oct 2021 at 10:19, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > *?* > > >>?OK. Once I let that sink in, I have a conjecture I will share in my > next post, some interesting data I think will come out of all this. > > Commentary welcome. > > >?No-one expects 100% compliance no matter what combination of enticements > and sanctions is used. The aim is to get as high a proportion of the > population as possible vaccinated. > > -- > > Stathis Papaioannou > > > > > > Ja, certainly, but the data I am looking for isn?t 100% compliance, but > rather what happens if the same person takes 100 vaccinations. > > > > It hasn?t even occurred to those losing their jobs that one can just make > up a fake vaccine card, but we can be sure that plenty of people did think > of that and already did it. There are no legal repercussions from it that > I can think of. > > > > Stathis, what would you speculate would happen to someone who maxes the > vaxes? At some point does the immune system start to make covid-like > symptoms? What if one is a lucky soul who didn?t even notice any > symptoms? That would be a perfect candidate for becoming a dartboard, > either as a profession or as an altruistic volunteer looking to encourage > the masses that it is perfectly safe. > I don?t think there would be many adverse effects of vaccine overdose. Vaccines are not like most drugs in that regard. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6925972/ https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.livescience.com/amp/woman-covid-19-vaccine-six-doses.html https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/theconversation.com/amp/when-vaccinating-26-million-australians-expect-a-mistake-or-two-but-we-can-minimise-the-risk-of-repeating-queenslands-overdose-incident-155945 -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Oct 5 00:02:59 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 17:02:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] data coming In-Reply-To: References: <002601d7b95d$d4ab6b60$7e024220$@rainier66.com> <001001d7b976$1085e990$3191bcb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002901d7b97c$5c2c4f50$1484edf0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Sent: Monday, October 4, 2021 4:38 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: BillK Subject: Re: [ExI] data coming On Tue, 5 Oct 2021 at 00:22, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > > > From: extropy-chat On Behalf > Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > > It hasn?t even occurred to those losing their jobs that one can just make up a fake vaccine card, but we can be sure that plenty of people did think of that and already did it. There are no legal repercussions from it that I can think of. > > spike > _______________________________________________ >...Hmmmm. If you do a search for fake vaccine card there are many results saying that they are available on the internet, the FBI is impounding any found and people are facing federal fraud charges. That sounds like legal repercussions to me. BillK _______________________________________________ Ja, the FBI is looking for people selling them, not for people buying them, but one wouldn't want to buy them on the internet, for that would make a data trail. The FBI doesn't want to go to court arguing that it is illegal to own a fake covid card when there isn't a law that says we need to have a covid shot. If the FBI did try such a case, they would lose, for the defendant could easily point out that the vaccines are not FDA approved, that nothing developed under Trump can be trusted, that the vaccine card was needed for their job (etc.) The jury would let them go, at worst a hung jury mistrial, and the FBI wouldn't bother with a re-trial because the same thing would happen again. Were I on a jury, I wouldn't vote to convict anyone who had a fake covid card, and I am one who thinks those vaccines are safe. A better and easier way would be to get the image of the card off the internet, then replace the name and birthdate with ones own, then print it on one's own printer. No record trail. Companies are not required to determine if the card is genuine. Still, there is no law against some yahoo getting multiple vaccines as far as I know. That is the data I am interested in. People can claim to be terrified of covid and know someone who caught a month after getting vaccinated, so they are convinced they need a vaccine every week to be safe. In any case, it would be hard to catch someone who shows up for a vaccine with no ID, for there is no legal requirement in USA to have ID. Billk, does Britain have a requirement for ID? Do they ask for ID when you get a vaccine? spike From bronto at pobox.com Tue Oct 5 00:40:42 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 17:40:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] data coming In-Reply-To: References: <002601d7b95d$d4ab6b60$7e024220$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On 2021-10-04 15:38, name redacted via extropy-chat wrote: > > > On Tue, 5 Oct 2021 at 07:26, name also redacted via extropy-chat wrote: > > [something many times longer than the following comment] > > [two sentences] I wonder how many people have DIED from cutting quoted matter to the NECESSARY context, so that I can like SEE the new content without scrolling on my very large monitor. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From bronto at pobox.com Tue Oct 5 03:00:47 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 20:00:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] data coming In-Reply-To: <002901d7b97c$5c2c4f50$1484edf0$@rainier66.com> References: <002601d7b95d$d4ab6b60$7e024220$@rainier66.com> <001001d7b976$1085e990$3191bcb0$@rainier66.com> <002901d7b97c$5c2c4f50$1484edf0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <6186905c-34ce-3d6a-f1da-ca8a728ec47c@pobox.com> On 2021-10-04 17:02, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > Ja, the FBI is looking for people selling them, not for people > buying them, but one wouldn't want to buy them on the internet, for > that would make a data trail. The FBI doesn't want to go to court > arguing that it is illegal to own a fake covid card when there isn't > a law that says we need to have a covid shot. There's also no law mandating Costco membership, say, but a fake Costco card is still fraud. > If the FBI did try such a case, they would lose, for the defendant > could easily point out that the vaccines are not FDA approved, that > nothing developed under Trump can be trusted, A judge would instruct the jury to disregard that last bit, and certainly not allow expert testimony on the Trump taint. > that the vaccine card was needed for their job (etc.) That too. I don't think I've ever heard of a successful necessity defense where there was no immediate danger of death or maiming. > The jury would let them go, at worst a hung jury mistrial, and the > FBI wouldn't bother with a re-trial because the same thing would > happen again. Were I on a jury, I wouldn't vote to convict anyone > who had a fake covid card, and I am one who thinks those vaccines are > safe. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Tue Oct 5 03:24:26 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 20:24:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] data coming In-Reply-To: <6186905c-34ce-3d6a-f1da-ca8a728ec47c@pobox.com> References: <002601d7b95d$d4ab6b60$7e024220$@rainier66.com> <001001d7b976$1085e990$3191bcb0$@rainier66.com> <002901d7b97c$5c2c4f50$1484edf0$@rainier66.com> <6186905c-34ce-3d6a-f1da-ca8a728ec47c@pobox.com> Message-ID: <001201d7b998$80c79510$8256bf30$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat >>... If the FBI did try such a case, they would lose, for the defendant > could easily point out that the vaccines are not FDA approved, that > nothing developed under Trump can be trusted, >...A judge would instruct the jury to disregard that last bit... That business about a judge instructing a jury to disregard something always slew me. Sure, don't think about something that probably will end up swaying a jury. Heh. What a weird system we have. >...and certainly not allow expert testimony on the Trump taint... Considering the current US Vice President once said she would not trust anything developed under Trump, a jury isn't going to come to a unanimous opinion on anything which has been corrupted by politics. No reasonable prosecutor would take this on. Case dismissed. I am the most moderate person in history. We had a contest to see who was the most moderate. I won. On a jury, even I wouldn't vote to convict anyone for using a fake covid vaccine card, and I am pro-vaccination. spike From atymes at gmail.com Tue Oct 5 03:27:02 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 20:27:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Facebook 2018 changes made users more divisive and angry In-Reply-To: <002a01d7b96b$3c150a10$b43f1e30$@rainier66.com> References: <005701d7b5f9$faf89c00$f0e9d400$@rainier66.com> <8ec3576b-e829-8dbc-1fbf-ee8f7a6c91ce@pobox.com> <001401d7b618$b155cea0$14016be0$@rainier66.com> <002a01d7b96b$3c150a10$b43f1e30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 4, 2021 at 3:02 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Monday, October 4, 2021 2:25 PM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* Adrian Tymes > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Facebook 2018 changes made users more divisive and > angry > > > > On Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 9:34 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > what it is (USA) what it shoulda been (everywhere) > > 1e3 thousand kilo > 1e6 million million > 1e9 billion giga > 1e12 trillion billion > 1e15 quadrillion peta > 1e18 quintillion trillion > 1e21 sextillion zetta > 1e24 septillion quadrillion > > > > >?Why leave out mega, tera, et al? > > > > People are too reluctant to use those terms for money > Are you kidding? I've lost count of the number of times I've seen "megabuck" in some story about the near future, and any time it's defined it's always 10^6 bucks. Just last week I was talking to someone about "tera(currency_name)". -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Tue Oct 5 17:05:18 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2021 18:05:18 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Covid Vaccines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 04/10/2021 23:39, spike asked: > Any speculations on what happens if someone gets 100 of these vaccines? Let me take a wild stab in the dark: Nothing. (assuming a reasonable timescale. One a day for 100 days, or 2 a day for 50 days. What happens if someone gets 100 jabs in the space of an hour is anyone's guess. Even water will kill you if you drink enough of it in a short enough time). Ben From dsunley at gmail.com Tue Oct 5 17:19:43 2021 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2021 11:19:43 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Covid Vaccines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Notwithstanding any concerns about the safety of the vaccine's working-as-designed primary mechanism, all vaccines contain support ingredients that are safe at the intended dosage and poisonous at higher concentrations. On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 11:08 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 04/10/2021 23:39, spike asked: > > Any speculations on what happens if someone gets 100 of these vaccines? > > Let me take a wild stab in the dark: Nothing. > > (assuming a reasonable timescale. One a day for 100 days, or 2 a day for > 50 days. What happens if someone gets 100 jabs in the space of an hour > is anyone's guess. Even water will kill you if you drink enough of it in > a short enough time). > > Ben > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Oct 5 18:25:14 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2021 11:25:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] data coming In-Reply-To: <001201d7b998$80c79510$8256bf30$@rainier66.com> References: <002601d7b95d$d4ab6b60$7e024220$@rainier66.com> <001001d7b976$1085e990$3191bcb0$@rainier66.com> <002901d7b97c$5c2c4f50$1484edf0$@rainier66.com> <6186905c-34ce-3d6a-f1da-ca8a728ec47c@pobox.com> <001201d7b998$80c79510$8256bf30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 4, 2021 at 8:26 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of > Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat > >>... If the FBI did try such a case, they would lose, for the defendant > > could easily point out that the vaccines are not FDA approved, that > > nothing developed under Trump can be trusted, > > >...A judge would instruct the jury to disregard that last bit... > > That business about a judge instructing a jury to disregard something > always > slew me. Sure, don't think about something that probably will end up > swaying a jury. Heh. What a weird system we have. > > > >...and certainly not allow expert testimony on the Trump taint... > > Considering the current US Vice President once said she would not trust > anything developed under Trump, a jury isn't going to come to a unanimous > opinion on anything which has been corrupted by politics. No reasonable > prosecutor would take this on. Case dismissed. > Objection: judicial instructions for a jury to ignore political considerations can be and have been followed, in the substantial majority of cases. If the judge issues these instructions, they would likely be followed. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Tue Oct 5 18:57:31 2021 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2021 11:57:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] data coming In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20211005115731.Horde.I0j0aaGahyo-o8g0kSUd3pX@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Spike: > > I have a card, but suppose my friend doesn't and refuses to get the vaccine > for reasons irrelevant to me, she will not. But she doesn't want to lose > her job, for if she does, then she will soon be homeless and will likely die > prematurely from the hardships of such a harsh lifestyle. Sounds like your friend wants to have her cake and eat it too. She has the right to not get vaccinated but others, including employers, have the right to shun her because of it. > > I could easily take my card, put a piece of white tape over my name, write > hers in that line, substitute her birthday if we consider it necessary, > print out a copy on my own printer on card stock (I have plenty of that) and > then she presents the card, keeps her job and I saved her life (from > starvation or the inherent risk of harlotry and homelessness, etc.) I > haven't committed counterfeiting, for a vaccination card isn't currency. > There are no laws on the books with regard to those things. This scam has been tried. Black market price for fraudulent vaccine card in the article is $150 - $200. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/oct/04/vaccination-cards-nurse-charged-stealing-selling-michigan-veterans-affairs Seems kind of overpriced for a ticket to a lottery where the prize is a slow death choking on your own phlegm, if you ask me. > > Let's go back to the teenage junky for the sake of argument. Suppose she > sets up shop after recognizing that getting these jabs is a less risky > business (and pays better) than the other things she jabs herself with or > allows herself to be jabbed with for money. She realizes she can sell her > arm for a hundred bucks a shot rather than whatever else she is selling for > fifty, so she shows up at the local free vaccine clinic four or five times a > day. Spike, this scenario of yours sounds incredibly wasteful in world where unfortunate countries are begging for vaccine from the fortunate countries that have it. That vaccine wasn't free; it was paid for by tax-payer money and generous donations from philanthropists. But maybe that was a mistake? Maybe more people would want the vaccine if it cost them $100 and they had to present proof of citizenship to purchase? Of course, Big Pharma would have probably not have taken the huge effort to research and develop the vaccine in so short a time without the guaranteed windfall of such a huge government subsidy. > But let's go yet another way. Imagine someone who heard a former POTUS > encourage the vaccine with the words ".get the shot! I did it! It's > goooood!" and is convinced that if anyone demonstrates how safe they are, > that more people will get the shot, which would save lives. We don't know > what happens if someone gets 100 of these vaccines in a span of a coupla > months, but. perhaps everyone here would like to know. > > Any speculations on what happens if someone gets 100 of these vaccines? In small doses, nitrogen mustard is a chemotherapy drug that can help cancer patients. In large doses it is a weapon of mass destruction called mustard gas. In medicine, the difference between a drug and a poison is often dosage. I am happy with my two doses of Moderna so far, but I would not want to take 100 in 60 days. I can't believe that the debate over public health has been hijacked by party politics. I think of functional sewers and vaccines to be public goods worth paying taxes for no matter what party you are. Stuart LaForge From dsunley at gmail.com Tue Oct 5 19:13:26 2021 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2021 13:13:26 -0600 Subject: [ExI] data coming In-Reply-To: <20211005115731.Horde.I0j0aaGahyo-o8g0kSUd3pX@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20211005115731.Horde.I0j0aaGahyo-o8g0kSUd3pX@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: It would help public health matters significantly if the large pharmaceutical companies weren't the most corrupt and sociopathic corporate entities since the fall of the great fruit cartels that colonized the Caribbean and the South Pacific. On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 1:00 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Quoting Spike: > > > > > I have a card, but suppose my friend doesn't and refuses to get the > vaccine > > for reasons irrelevant to me, she will not. But she doesn't want to lose > > her job, for if she does, then she will soon be homeless and will likely > die > > prematurely from the hardships of such a harsh lifestyle. > > Sounds like your friend wants to have her cake and eat it too. She has > the right to not get vaccinated but others, including employers, have > the right to shun her because of it. > > > > > I could easily take my card, put a piece of white tape over my name, > write > > hers in that line, substitute her birthday if we consider it necessary, > > print out a copy on my own printer on card stock (I have plenty of that) > and > > then she presents the card, keeps her job and I saved her life (from > > starvation or the inherent risk of harlotry and homelessness, etc.) I > > haven't committed counterfeiting, for a vaccination card isn't currency. > > There are no laws on the books with regard to those things. > > This scam has been tried. Black market price for fraudulent vaccine > card in the article is $150 - $200. > > https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/oct/04/vaccination-cards-nurse-charged-stealing-selling-michigan-veterans-affairs > > Seems kind of overpriced for a ticket to a lottery where the prize is > a slow death choking on your own phlegm, if you ask me. > > > > > Let's go back to the teenage junky for the sake of argument. Suppose she > > sets up shop after recognizing that getting these jabs is a less risky > > business (and pays better) than the other things she jabs herself with or > > allows herself to be jabbed with for money. She realizes she can sell > her > > arm for a hundred bucks a shot rather than whatever else she is selling > for > > fifty, so she shows up at the local free vaccine clinic four or five > times a > > day. > > Spike, this scenario of yours sounds incredibly wasteful in world > where unfortunate countries are begging for vaccine from the fortunate > countries that have it. That vaccine wasn't free; it was paid for by > tax-payer money and generous donations from philanthropists. But maybe > that was a mistake? Maybe more people would want the vaccine if it > cost them $100 and they had to present proof of citizenship to purchase? > > Of course, Big Pharma would have probably not have taken the huge > effort to research and develop the vaccine in so short a time without > the guaranteed windfall of such a huge government subsidy. > > > But let's go yet another way. Imagine someone who heard a former POTUS > > encourage the vaccine with the words ".get the shot! I did it! It's > > goooood!" and is convinced that if anyone demonstrates how safe they are, > > that more people will get the shot, which would save lives. We don't > know > > what happens if someone gets 100 of these vaccines in a span of a coupla > > months, but. perhaps everyone here would like to know. > > > > Any speculations on what happens if someone gets 100 of these vaccines? > > In small doses, nitrogen mustard is a chemotherapy drug that can help > cancer patients. In large doses it is a weapon of mass destruction > called mustard gas. In medicine, the difference between a drug and a > poison is often dosage. I am happy with my two doses of Moderna so > far, but I would not want to take 100 in 60 days. > > I can't believe that the debate over public health has been hijacked > by party politics. I think of functional sewers and vaccines to be > public goods worth paying taxes for no matter what party you are. > > Stuart LaForge > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Oct 5 20:28:25 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2021 13:28:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] data coming In-Reply-To: References: <002601d7b95d$d4ab6b60$7e024220$@rainier66.com> <001001d7b976$1085e990$3191bcb0$@rainier66.com> <002901d7b97c$5c2c4f50$1484edf0$@rainier66.com> <6186905c-34ce-3d6a-f1da-ca8a728ec47c@pobox.com> <001201d7b998$80c79510$8256bf30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004801d7ba27$8d577950$a8066bf0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] data coming On Mon, Oct 4, 2021 at 8:26 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: -----Original Message----- >?No reasonable prosecutor would take this on. Case dismissed. >?Objection: judicial instructions for a jury to ignore political considerations can be and have been followed, in the substantial majority of cases. If the judge issues these instructions, they would likely be followed? I did some searching around yesterday and found out there is no need to take the risk. There are internet vendors which are selling religious exemption cards. You send them a .pdf and they make an official-looking laminated card with your name, birthdate and photo, no one else?s logo on it so you don?t need to worry about legalities, the card says you have a religious exemption to vaccines. No one had the right or the ability to know what you religion is, so? the whole process is perfectly legal and only costs about 8 bucks. Now let?s see what happens if the governor tries to remove religious exemptions. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Oct 5 20:36:56 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2021 13:36:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] data coming In-Reply-To: <004801d7ba27$8d577950$a8066bf0$@rainier66.com> References: <002601d7b95d$d4ab6b60$7e024220$@rainier66.com> <001001d7b976$1085e990$3191bcb0$@rainier66.com> <002901d7b97c$5c2c4f50$1484edf0$@rainier66.com> <6186905c-34ce-3d6a-f1da-ca8a728ec47c@pobox.com> <001201d7b998$80c79510$8256bf30$@rainier66.com> <004801d7ba27$8d577950$a8066bf0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 1:31 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] data coming > > > > On Mon, Oct 4, 2021 at 8:26 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > >?No reasonable prosecutor would take this on. Case dismissed. > > > > >?Objection: judicial instructions for a jury to ignore political > considerations can be and have been followed, in the substantial majority > of cases. If the judge issues these instructions, they would likely be > followed? > > > > > > I did some searching around yesterday and found out there is no need to > take the risk. There are internet vendors which are selling religious > exemption cards. You send them a .pdf and they make an official-looking > laminated card with your name, birthdate and photo, no one else?s logo on > it so you don?t need to worry about legalities, the card says you have a > religious exemption to vaccines. > > > > No one had the right or the ability to know what you religion is, so? the > whole process is perfectly legal and only costs about 8 bucks. > > > > Now let?s see what happens if the governor tries to remove religious > exemptions. > Or if using such a service, and not being able to articulate the details of the religious objection, might cross the threshold to be able to prove that a specific, shoddily-constructed claim of religious objection is in fact fraudulent. (An actual religious claim might be protected, but there is also falsely claiming religious objection, and doing so poorly enough to leave evidence of the fraud.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Oct 5 20:42:04 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2021 13:42:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] data coming In-Reply-To: <20211005115731.Horde.I0j0aaGahyo-o8g0kSUd3pX@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20211005115731.Horde.I0j0aaGahyo-o8g0kSUd3pX@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <005001d7ba29$755f14f0$601d3ed0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat Sent: Tuesday, October 5, 2021 11:58 AM To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Cc: Stuart LaForge Subject: Re: [ExI] data coming Quoting Spike: > >> ... I have a card, but suppose my friend doesn't and refuses to get the > vaccine for reasons irrelevant to me >...Sounds like your friend wants to have her cake and eat it too. She has the right to not get vaccinated but others, including employers, have the right to shun her because of it... Or she is afraid of the vaccine but wants to keep her job. > > >... >...This scam has been tried. Black market price for fraudulent vaccine card in the article is $150 - $200. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/oct/04/vaccination-cards-nurse-char ged-stealing-selling-michigan-veterans-affairs Ja. But the religious exemption card sales are perfectly legal and only cost 8 bucks. Of course the latter-stage saint would need to be tested weekly, but she would be immune from being fired. >...Seems kind of overpriced for a ticket to a lottery where the prize is a slow death choking on your own phlegm, if you ask me... Ja me too. I would recommend the vaccine too, but some will not take it. A second resort would be to get an 8 dollar religious exemption card. > >>... Let's go back to the teenage junky for the sake of argument..., so she shows up at the local free vaccine clinic four or five times a > day. >...Spike, this scenario of yours sounds incredibly wasteful in world where unfortunate countries are begging for vaccine... Ja, but of course the unfortunate countries are irrelevant from the point of view of the teenage junky, who thinks of herself is living in an unfortunate country, or an unfortunate person living in a fortunate country. >...Of course, Big Pharma would have probably not have taken the huge effort to research and develop the vaccine in so short a time without the guaranteed windfall of such a huge government subsidy... The development effort was done under a huge government subsidy. Notice none of the drug companies have bothered even trying to get FDA approval, for that would require a huge investment of their own resources. >>... But let's go yet another way... Any speculations on what happens if someone gets 100 of these vaccines? >...In small doses, nitrogen mustard is a chemotherapy drug that can help cancer patients. In large doses it is a weapon of mass destruction ... I agree it would be dangerous probably. But I can also imagine someone hoping to convince the masses to go forward with 2 shots by showing a person can survive 50 of them. >...I can't believe that the debate over public health has been hijacked by party politics... Agree it is tragic indeed. This is a crisis that really should have been let go to waste. >... I think of functional sewers and vaccines to be public goods worth paying taxes for no matter what party you are. Stuart LaForge It is indeed a tragedy of our times. Both the teenage harlot example and the altruistic dartboard example have nothing to do with politics. One is profit motive, the other is to encourage the masses, neither take into consideration less fortunate countries still facing supply problems. spike From spike at rainier66.com Tue Oct 5 23:20:53 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2021 16:20:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Covid Vaccines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008b01d7ba3f$a4a71bc0$edf55340$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Covid Vaccines On 04/10/2021 23:39, spike asked: > Any speculations on what happens if someone gets 100 of these vaccines? Let me take a wild stab in the dark: Nothing. (assuming a reasonable timescale. One a day for 100 days, or 2 a day for 50 days. What happens if someone gets 100 jabs in the space of an hour is anyone's guess. Even water will kill you if you drink enough of it in a short enough time). Ben _______________________________________________ I think we will find out within a month or two. They took a while getting the sites going, and it wasn't widely publicized that photo ID is not required (even though it could be inferred, given the widely publicized fact that in California anyone can vote without photo ID.) Without ID, anyone is anyone one says one is, and can identify as someone else of any of the known genders. I thought of another interesting aspect of the whole notion. We know that in covid there is a spectrum of belief about its danger. Perhaps we could construct a bell-shaped curve if we wish to collapse that fear factor into a single axis. For instance, imagine a scale with the horizontal axis being the amount of fear a person has of covid (which can be relative to other fears) with the vertical being the number of people with that level of fear. Having had the virus myself (we think) and being very sick but surviving without serious consequences, I might put myself on the left side of that bell curve, perhaps about one standard deviation lower than the mean. But I personally know those way over on the right side of that curve: one of my scouts seldom does anything because of covid fear, causing me to worry for him, for he went through his biggest growth spurt completely without exercise. I have a neighbor who has not been seen outdoors in a year and a half. I also know those so far over to the left of that curve: they think covid was all made up, completely fictitious, a hoax. OK cool now repeat the exercise for vaccine fears. I am over to the left side of that one too, perhaps a sigma to the left, possibly more. So... my covid fear and vaccine fear roughly match: I don't consider either a significant risk to my wellbeing. Now think about how people would behave if those factors didn't match: their covid fear was low and vaccine fear was high for instance. They would be the vaccine resistance movement. Never mind bringing in government fear, because that would complicate the matter further if we take into account those who distrust the vaccine because the previous POTUS and present POTUS recommend it, nor do they trust the current head of the NIH who worked for both. Never mind that for now. What about those whose covid fear is high and vaccine fear is low? Most of us agree we really don't know how long vaccine immunity lasts (are there those here who would dispute that we don't know?) The covid-fear-high-vaccine-fear-low crowd are the kind of people who might reason that the immunity from the vaccine might confer immunity only for perhaps a week rather than the more generally-accepted two to five years. They might then go to a different free-shot site every week, accumulating about 50 shots a year. We are not yet a year into that kind of vaccine availability, but we might be soon. Ben would be over on the left side of the vaccine fear curve, as would most of us here probably. Ben might be farther left than I am, for I don't know what happens if someone gets a vaccine a week for a year. I can imagine the immune system getting stirred up and doing bad things, but I am not a medic. Would the RNA bits accumulate somehow? Hard to say. Would one develop an allergy to the vaccine? Seems a reasonable possibility that it could happen. spike From spike at rainier66.com Wed Oct 6 00:26:27 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2021 17:26:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Covid Vaccines In-Reply-To: <008b01d7ba3f$a4a71bc0$edf55340$@rainier66.com> References: <008b01d7ba3f$a4a71bc0$edf55340$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00e201d7ba48$cdb82cd0$69288670$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: spike at rainier66.com ... >...I thought of another interesting aspect of the whole notion. We know that in covid there is a spectrum of belief about its danger. Perhaps we could construct a bell-shaped curve if we wish to collapse that fear factor into a single axis. ...spike Do indulge me in pushing this notion to absurdity and beyond please. Imagine doing that fear of covid and fear of vax graph into bell curves, and put both on a 2D grid as shown with the Vax fear on the vertical and the covid fear on the horizontal. I have shown marks there representing standard deviations, so that everyone in the sanity zone would be somewhere on that graph. If one is undecided whether the vaccine or covid is a higher risk, one is on the dashed line. Below the dashed line, one takes the vaccine voluntarily, above the dashed line, one would refuse. Regarding the notation, quadrants 1 and 3 are divided into regions 1, 2, 3 and 4. I am in quadrant 3 region 3: I consider my covid risk low but the vaccine risk lower, so. region 3. In quadrant 4 are the stubborn vaccine refusers, the kind of people who will buy (or make) phony covid proof or perhaps would buy the religious exemption cards. That data I keep going on about are those deep in the bottom right of this graph, way over in quadrant 2. They would be the yahoos sneaking around collecting vaccines at every opportunity. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 20248 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Oct 6 04:14:41 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2021 21:14:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Covid Vaccines In-Reply-To: <00e201d7ba48$cdb82cd0$69288670$@rainier66.com> References: <008b01d7ba3f$a4a71bc0$edf55340$@rainier66.com> <00e201d7ba48$cdb82cd0$69288670$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004901d7ba68$b06f5390$114dfab0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com . >.Imagine doing that fear of covid and fear of vax graph into bell curves, and put both on a 2D grid as shown with the Vax fear on the vertical and the covid fear on the horizontal. spike OK so now I am down in that laid-back easy-breezy quadrant 3 region 3. This is not to say I wasn't just a little disappointed in the vaccine. The scientists agreed that the virus somehow originated in bats, so of course those of us who ever read comic books back in the 60s had in the back of our minds that maybe injecting RNA from bats would result in our getting Batman superpowers! But then. we realized the awful truth: Batman was the only known superhero who didn't have any actual superpowers. He had a buttload of money, the sixpack abs, he had the bat cave, a really cool car, he had youthful ward Dick Grays. on. eh. hmmm. OK then, car, cave, money, abs, that guy was really cool, but no actual superpowers, unlike Spider Man who was bitten by the radioactive. well you know the drill, but humanity was unfortunate enough to catch a murderous virus from the one beast associated with the one superhero who had no actual superpowers at all. Damn. In any case. where are you on the graph above and why? Feel the spirit of the game and be open. We are among friends here. It is OK to have reservations about that vaccine: it was rushed, and as far as I know, it is a new technology where one injects RNA from a bat into our systems theorizing that it will stimulate the immune system. I don't think that could cause harm, but I don't know everything. Over time it looks like it would just break down, completely without risk of causing covid. But I am not a biologist. Thoughts please? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 10596 bytes Desc: not available URL: From guessmyneeds at yahoo.com Wed Oct 6 21:53:43 2021 From: guessmyneeds at yahoo.com (Sherry Knepper) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 21:53:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] Covid Vaccines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1322977939.23165.1633557223750@mail.yahoo.com> Salt had been a popular example in the USA of something desirable that is harmful in too large amounts. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 1:14 PM, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: On 04/10/2021 23:39, spike asked: > Any speculations on what happens if someone gets 100 of these vaccines? Let me take a wild stab in the dark: Nothing. (assuming a reasonable timescale. One a day for 100 days, or 2 a day for 50 days. What happens if someone gets 100 jabs in the space of an hour is anyone's guess. Even water will kill you if you drink enough of it in a short enough time). Ben _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Oct 6 23:18:31 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 18:18:31 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Covid Vaccines In-Reply-To: <1322977939.23165.1633557223750@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1322977939.23165.1633557223750@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: re salt: what they don't tell you is that only for about 1/4 of the population is there a correlation between salt intake and blood pressure (BP). Most people are not affected, but they make recommendations for everyone despite that. And no, I don't know of any way to tell one from another as to whether salt affects BP bill w On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 4:57 PM Sherry Knepper via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Salt had been a popular example in the USA of something desirable that is > harmful in too large amounts. > > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android > > > On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 1:14 PM, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > wrote: > On 04/10/2021 23:39, spike asked: > > Any speculations on what happens if someone gets 100 of these vaccines? > > Let me take a wild stab in the dark: Nothing. > > (assuming a reasonable timescale. One a day for 100 days, or 2 a day for > 50 days. What happens if someone gets 100 jabs in the space of an hour > is anyone's guess. Even water will kill you if you drink enough of it in > a short enough time). > > Ben > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Thu Oct 7 07:23:23 2021 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2021 00:23:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Covid Vaccines Message-ID: <20211007002323.Horde.5ZlkimFppZbPU9GZ7-3sSLm@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> The Covid mRNA vaccines were designed to be delivered in an intramuscular manner. In mice, the injection of Covid vaccine intravenously instead of intramuscularly causes acute myopericarditis. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8436386/ Which is apparently also a risk in humans also. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/myocarditis.html The skill of the person administering the injection comes into play here. The vaccine seems safe if used as intended but less so if . . . abused. Stuart LaForge From dsunley at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 16:42:29 2021 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 10:42:29 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Covid Vaccines In-Reply-To: <20211007002323.Horde.5ZlkimFppZbPU9GZ7-3sSLm@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20211007002323.Horde.5ZlkimFppZbPU9GZ7-3sSLm@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: That seems like the sort of thing that would have been good to know before they had hundreds of thousands of nurses of wildly varying skill levels administer it to a billion people, and make their employment and participation in civil society contingent on consenting to receive it. Also would have been nice not to brutally suppress online discussion of these issues too. On Thu, Oct 7, 2021 at 1:26 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > The Covid mRNA vaccines were designed to be delivered in an > intramuscular manner. In mice, the injection of Covid vaccine > intravenously instead of intramuscularly causes acute myopericarditis. > https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8436386/ > > Which is apparently also a risk in humans also. > https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/myocarditis.html > > The skill of the person administering the injection comes into play > here. The vaccine seems safe if used as intended but less so if . . . > abused. > > Stuart LaForge > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 16:51:28 2021 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 12:51:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Covid Vaccines In-Reply-To: References: <20211007002323.Horde.5ZlkimFppZbPU9GZ7-3sSLm@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: Yes, that would be nice, wouldn't it, but we don't live in a sane world right now. I would seriously doubt most of the people administering vaccinations are aspirating first to ensure they haven't hit a blood vessel. I can tell you based on my own experience that the pharmacist who administered mine did not. My concern with both the RNA (and to a lesser extent DNA) based vaccines from the very beginning is a lack of concern over tissue distribution of the nanoparticles. They clearly do not stay localized in the muscle based on animal studies even when administered properly, and things get even worse when the administrator hits a blood vessel during the jab. On Thu, Oct 7, 2021 at 12:43 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > That seems like the sort of thing that would have been good to know before > they had hundreds of thousands of nurses of wildly varying skill levels > administer it to a billion people, and make their employment and > participation in civil society contingent on consenting to receive it. > > Also would have been nice not to brutally suppress online discussion of > these issues too. > > On Thu, Oct 7, 2021 at 1:26 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> The Covid mRNA vaccines were designed to be delivered in an >> intramuscular manner. In mice, the injection of Covid vaccine >> intravenously instead of intramuscularly causes acute myopericarditis. >> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8436386/ >> >> Which is apparently also a risk in humans also. >> https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/myocarditis.html >> >> The skill of the person administering the injection comes into play >> here. The vaccine seems safe if used as intended but less so if . . . >> abused. >> >> Stuart LaForge >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Oct 7 17:24:30 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 10:24:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Covid Vaccines In-Reply-To: References: <20211007002323.Horde.5ZlkimFppZbPU9GZ7-3sSLm@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <00ba01d7bba0$3047eae0$90d7c0a0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Covid Vaccines >>>? Which is apparently also a risk in humans also. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/myocarditis.html... Stuart >>? That seems like the sort of thing that would have been good to know before they had hundreds of thousands of nurses of wildly varying skill levels administer it to a billion people? Darin >?Yes, that would be nice, wouldn't it, but we don't live in a sane world right now. I would seriously doubt most of the people administering vaccinations are aspirating first to ensure they haven't hit a blood vessel? Also would have been nice not to brutally suppress online discussion of these issues too?Darin The last sentence of the Darin quote above really has my wheels spinning. There is good evidence that online discussion of the risks of the vaccine were labeled vaccine misinformation and suppressed. Consider again this diagram: Now this report will explain why it is that people who have gotten vaccinations for many years with never any ill effects may run as high a risk as anyone else, for we hadn?t thought of that mechanism. We had reliable reports of healthy young people developing myocarditis after getting the vax, but the internet didn?t like those cases being discussed. Now it comes down to how long we believe the vaccination confers protection. I was led to believe it was 2 to 5 years. But later reports suggest we still don?t know that. Israel was a heavy early vaccinator It changes the risk/benefit ratio of the conferred immunity is significantly shorter than we thought. This Israeli data might suggest the immunity from the vaccine might be short-lived, which really does impact the risk/benefit ratio: spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 10596 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 15576 bytes Desc: not available URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 17:36:02 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 12:36:02 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Covid Vaccines In-Reply-To: <00ba01d7bba0$3047eae0$90d7c0a0$@rainier66.com> References: <20211007002323.Horde.5ZlkimFppZbPU9GZ7-3sSLm@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <00ba01d7bba0$3047eae0$90d7c0a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-10-06/sweden-halts-moderna-s-covid-vaccine-for-people-aged-30-or-under bill w On Thu, Oct 7, 2021 at 12:26 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Covid Vaccines > > > > > > > > >>>? Which is apparently also a risk in humans also. > https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/myocarditis.html... > Stuart > > > > >>? That seems like the sort of thing that would have been good to know > before they had hundreds of thousands of nurses of wildly varying skill > levels administer it to a billion people? Darin > > > > > > >?Yes, that would be nice, wouldn't it, but we don't live in a sane world > right now. I would seriously doubt most of the people administering > vaccinations are aspirating first to ensure they haven't hit a blood > vessel? Also would have been nice not to brutally suppress online > discussion of these issues too?Darin > > > > > > The last sentence of the Darin quote above really has my wheels spinning. > There is good evidence that online discussion of the risks of the vaccine > were labeled vaccine misinformation and suppressed. > > > > Consider again this diagram: > > > > > > Now this report will explain why it is that people who have gotten > vaccinations for many years with never any ill effects may run as high a > risk as anyone else, for we hadn?t thought of that mechanism. We had > reliable reports of healthy young people developing myocarditis after > getting the vax, but the internet didn?t like those cases being discussed. > > > > Now it comes down to how long we believe the vaccination confers > protection. I was led to believe it was 2 to 5 years. But later reports > suggest we still don?t know that. Israel was a heavy early vaccinator It > changes the risk/benefit ratio of the conferred immunity is significantly > shorter than we thought. This Israeli data might suggest the immunity from > the vaccine might be short-lived, which really does impact the risk/benefit > ratio: > > > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 10596 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 15576 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 18:12:48 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 05:12:48 +1100 Subject: [ExI] Covid Vaccines In-Reply-To: <20211007002323.Horde.5ZlkimFppZbPU9GZ7-3sSLm@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20211007002323.Horde.5ZlkimFppZbPU9GZ7-3sSLm@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Oct 2021 at 18:25, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > The Covid mRNA vaccines were designed to be delivered in an > intramuscular manner. In mice, the injection of Covid vaccine > intravenously instead of intramuscularly causes acute myopericarditis. > https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8436386/ > > Which is apparently also a risk in humans also. > https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/myocarditis.html > > The skill of the person administering the injection comes into play > here. The vaccine seems safe if used as intended but less so if . . . > abused. For some intramuscular injections it has been customary to pull back on the plunger before injecting to ensure that you are not in a blood vessel, but it has been shown in studies that this is unnecessary in the common injection sites and it is not done for vaccinations. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Thu Oct 7 20:30:37 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 21:30:37 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Superheroes without superpowers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 07/10/2021 08:23, spike wrote: > Batman was the only known superhero who didn?t have any actual superpowers I beg to differ: (musical clue): Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: fleibglbdagockeh.png Type: image/png Size: 31473 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Oct 7 21:25:11 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 14:25:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Superheroes without superpowers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005c01d7bbc1$d0349c30$709dd490$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Superheroes without superpowers On 07/10/2021 08:23, spike wrote: Batman was the only known superhero who didn't have any actual superpowers I beg to differ: (musical clue): Ben Ben if this musical clue postdates about 1968, I am outta luck. I never saw any of the Batman movies and this musical phrase doesn't stir even a trace of memory. Back in those days, Batman and Robin together could take three thugs, but not four. You always knew if they were going to get their asses whooped if the bad guy had four henchpeople or if she had three. Catwoman always had four. I don't recall the dynamic duo ever defeating Catwoman's four henchpeople. Not all the bad guys figured out her secret, fortunately for the duo. Batman really brought a lotta stuff to his crimefighting career: a 55 Lincoln Futura, which was never a production model, so it didn't take a lot to make it into the Batmobile for instance. After I wrote the previous post, a fun thought occurred to me. My lighthearted premise was that if a radioactive spider bit Peter Parker and gave him spider strength, then perhaps being injected with something that came from bats would give us Batman mojo. It didn't, but a fun thought occurred to me: in a sense we all have Batman mojo now. Well think about it: compare your car to the 55 Linc concept car. There are a few of them around, if we count replicas: https://www.undiscoveredclassics.com/forgotten-fiberglass/chris-woodsides-19 55-futura/ It is a stylized Lincoln Continental Mark 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Mark_II It had that 368 CI Y-block V8, which is big but not huge even by the standards of the day, and it is an enormous car with little or no plastic, so it was a heavy tank. My point: most of us here have an ordinary car which performs better than the batmobile! Think about that: if Batman and Robin chased us, we could outrun their caped asses in our cheapy whatever we drive probably, while burning a third of the fuel. Their car looked cooler, but for all that weight, it was only a two-seater and was a slow tank. OK then. The duo had computers! But we have computers too, and ours are waaaay better that theirs. The duo had. capes! We can have those if we want them. Down at the Halloween costume store, popular items they are because they are one of the few left that no one has figured out a way to label them politically incorrect. They had. gentlemanly ways! Even when some fiend was about to kill them in the most painful (and least reliable) means, they still had those impeccable manners. Consider that time Catwoman was about to drop the duo into a vat of boiling acid. Robin commented, "You are not a very nice person, Catwoman!" Ah, OK, well sure, perfect Edwardian gentlemen, but that is a choice. You and I could act that way if we chose. For a while anyway. They had. Wayne Manor! Well, OK, they got me there. Not many of us have such nice digs, and none of us have a bat cave down there. Other than perhaps BillK, none of us have a butler, probably none of us have Bruce's money. But when you really think about it, our lifestyle is pretty much at least equal to, or perhaps better than (in some important ways) Batman's. For instance. we live in times where we get to learn that neutrinos have mass! We live in times where we get to learn that detectable gravitation events are a ten thousand times more common than our standard theory predicted. How cool is that? Cooler than the batmobile! In that sense, even though the vaccines didn't give us Batman mojo, most of us already had it in a way. Oh life is goooood. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 31473 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Oct 7 21:41:46 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 14:41:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Covid Vaccines In-Reply-To: <00ba01d7bba0$3047eae0$90d7c0a0$@rainier66.com> References: <20211007002323.Horde.5ZlkimFppZbPU9GZ7-3sSLm@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <00ba01d7bba0$3047eae0$90d7c0a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007301d7bbc4$2154aae0$63fe00a0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com ? >?Now it comes down to how long we believe the vaccination confers protection. I was led to believe it was 2 to 5 years. But later reports suggest we still don?t know that. Israel was a heavy early vaccinator It changes the risk/benefit ratio of the conferred immunity is significantly shorter than we thought. This Israeli data might suggest the immunity from the vaccine might be short-lived, which really does impact the risk/benefit ratio: My apologies for grinding this subject into absurdity, but eh? that?s what I do best. The Israeli data seems to suggest that the immunity from the vaccine doesn?t last long or the virus easily mutates around it, so the Israelis caught a related corona virus. I had assumed immunity for about 2 to 5 years, but if we learn that the immunity lasts only 2 to 5 months, that would explain the Israeli experience. If we learn that the vaccine really protects for only 2 to 5 weeks, then it changes the dynamic entirely. We now suspect that if a medic?s error puts the vaccine into a vein, there is resulting heart damage. The risk is low of course. But if we find out it works for only 2 to 5 weeks, it is not at all clear that the vaccine is safer than not-vaccine. Thoughts please? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 15576 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 21:58:10 2021 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 15:58:10 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Covid Vaccines In-Reply-To: <007301d7bbc4$2154aae0$63fe00a0$@rainier66.com> References: <20211007002323.Horde.5ZlkimFppZbPU9GZ7-3sSLm@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <00ba01d7bba0$3047eae0$90d7c0a0$@rainier66.com> <007301d7bbc4$2154aae0$63fe00a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The risk is significantly less low. We have no idea just how much less low it is, but we do know this with absolute certainty: there is not a single figure in the media, government, or academia who will not lie their face off about the actual risk rate, and sleep well that night. On Thu, Oct 7, 2021 at 3:43 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* spike at rainier66.com > *?* > > > > >?Now it comes down to how long we believe the vaccination confers > protection. I was led to believe it was 2 to 5 years. But later reports > suggest we still don?t know that. Israel was a heavy early vaccinator It > changes the risk/benefit ratio of the conferred immunity is significantly > shorter than we thought. This Israeli data might suggest the immunity from > the vaccine might be short-lived, which really does impact the risk/benefit > ratio: > > > > > > My apologies for grinding this subject into absurdity, but eh? that?s what > I do best. > > > > The Israeli data seems to suggest that the immunity from the vaccine > doesn?t last long or the virus easily mutates around it, so the Israelis > caught a related corona virus. > > > > I had assumed immunity for about 2 to 5 years, but if we learn that the > immunity lasts only 2 to 5 months, that would explain the Israeli > experience. If we learn that the vaccine really protects for only 2 to 5 > weeks, then it changes the dynamic entirely. > > > > We now suspect that if a medic?s error puts the vaccine into a vein, there > is resulting heart damage. The risk is low of course. But if we find out > it works for only 2 to 5 weeks, it is not at all clear that the vaccine is > safer than not-vaccine. > > > > Thoughts please? > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 15576 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 22:04:22 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 09:04:22 +1100 Subject: [ExI] Covid Vaccines In-Reply-To: References: <20211007002323.Horde.5ZlkimFppZbPU9GZ7-3sSLm@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <00ba01d7bba0$3047eae0$90d7c0a0$@rainier66.com> <007301d7bbc4$2154aae0$63fe00a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Oct 2021 at 08:59, Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The risk is significantly less low. We have no idea just how much less low > it is, but we do know this with absolute certainty: there is not a single > figure in the media, government, or academia who will not lie their face > off about the actual risk rate, and sleep well that night. > What are they lying about and why are they lying? On Thu, Oct 7, 2021 at 3:43 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> *From:* spike at rainier66.com >> *?* >> >> >> >> >?Now it comes down to how long we believe the vaccination confers >> protection. I was led to believe it was 2 to 5 years. But later reports >> suggest we still don?t know that. Israel was a heavy early vaccinator It >> changes the risk/benefit ratio of the conferred immunity is significantly >> shorter than we thought. This Israeli data might suggest the immunity from >> the vaccine might be short-lived, which really does impact the risk/benefit >> ratio: >> >> >> >> >> >> My apologies for grinding this subject into absurdity, but eh? that?s >> what I do best. >> >> >> >> The Israeli data seems to suggest that the immunity from the vaccine >> doesn?t last long or the virus easily mutates around it, so the Israelis >> caught a related corona virus. >> >> >> >> I had assumed immunity for about 2 to 5 years, but if we learn that the >> immunity lasts only 2 to 5 months, that would explain the Israeli >> experience. If we learn that the vaccine really protects for only 2 to 5 >> weeks, then it changes the dynamic entirely. >> >> >> >> We now suspect that if a medic?s error puts the vaccine into a vein, >> there is resulting heart damage. The risk is low of course. But if we >> find out it works for only 2 to 5 weeks, it is not at all clear that the >> vaccine is safer than not-vaccine. >> >> >> >> Thoughts please? >> >> >> >> spike >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 15576 bytes Desc: not available URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 02:08:19 2021 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 22:08:19 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Covid Vaccines In-Reply-To: References: <20211007002323.Horde.5ZlkimFppZbPU9GZ7-3sSLm@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <00ba01d7bba0$3047eae0$90d7c0a0$@rainier66.com> <007301d7bbc4$2154aae0$63fe00a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: +1. On Thu, Oct 7, 2021, 5:59 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The risk is significantly less low. We have no idea just how much less low > it is, but we do know this with absolute certainty: there is not a single > figure in the media, government, or academia who will not lie their face > off about the actual risk rate, and sleep well that night. > > On Thu, Oct 7, 2021 at 3:43 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> *From:* spike at rainier66.com >> *?* >> >> >> >> >?Now it comes down to how long we believe the vaccination confers >> protection. I was led to believe it was 2 to 5 years. But later reports >> suggest we still don?t know that. Israel was a heavy early vaccinator It >> changes the risk/benefit ratio of the conferred immunity is significantly >> shorter than we thought. This Israeli data might suggest the immunity from >> the vaccine might be short-lived, which really does impact the risk/benefit >> ratio: >> >> >> >> >> >> My apologies for grinding this subject into absurdity, but eh? that?s >> what I do best. >> >> >> >> The Israeli data seems to suggest that the immunity from the vaccine >> doesn?t last long or the virus easily mutates around it, so the Israelis >> caught a related corona virus. >> >> >> >> I had assumed immunity for about 2 to 5 years, but if we learn that the >> immunity lasts only 2 to 5 months, that would explain the Israeli >> experience. If we learn that the vaccine really protects for only 2 to 5 >> weeks, then it changes the dynamic entirely. >> >> >> >> We now suspect that if a medic?s error puts the vaccine into a vein, >> there is resulting heart damage. The risk is low of course. But if we >> find out it works for only 2 to 5 weeks, it is not at all clear that the >> vaccine is safer than not-vaccine. >> >> >> >> Thoughts please? >> >> >> >> spike >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 05:26:55 2021 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 07:26:55 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Book review: The Simulated Multiverse, by Rizwan Virk Message-ID: Book review: The Simulated Multiverse, by Rizwan Virk Perhaps we live in a simulated multiverse: a complex, interconnected network of multiple simulated timelines. Rizwan Virk presents a fusion of the simulation hypothesis and the quantum MWI (many-worlds). https://turingchurch.net/book-review-the-simulated-multiverse-by-rizwan-virk-e3cadd505d6d -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Fri Oct 8 05:27:44 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 22:27:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Superheroes without superpowers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <214cc908-332c-5f08-0e43-34e3a7fddb82@pobox.com> > On 07/10/2021 08:23, spike wrote: >> Batman was the only known superhero who didn?t have any actual superpowers The Spirit comes to mind. On 2021-10-07 13:30, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > I beg to differ: > (musical clue): I tried to pick it out on guitar; didn't help. Wild guess: The Green Hornet? (I never saw the show.) -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From emerhorne at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 11:04:50 2021 From: emerhorne at gmail.com (Tristan Linck) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 07:04:50 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Superheroes without superpowers In-Reply-To: <005c01d7bbc1$d0349c30$709dd490$@rainier66.com> References: <005c01d7bbc1$d0349c30$709dd490$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 7, 2021, 17:27 spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Superheroes without superpowers > > > > On 07/10/2021 08:23, spike wrote: > > Batman was the only known superhero who didn?t have any actual superpowers > > I beg to differ: > > (musical clue): > > Ben > > > > Ben if this musical clue postdates about 1968, I am outta luck. I never > saw any of the Batman movies and this musical phrase doesn?t stir even a > trace of memory. > It does postdate 1968, but only by a couple years. I will say looking in a Bat-direction will not prove fruitful on this particular question. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 31473 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 31473 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bronto at pobox.com Fri Oct 8 16:08:12 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 09:08:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Superheroes without superpowers In-Reply-To: <214cc908-332c-5f08-0e43-34e3a7fddb82@pobox.com> References: <214cc908-332c-5f08-0e43-34e3a7fddb82@pobox.com> Message-ID: >> On 07/10/2021 08:23, spike wrote: >>> Batman was the only known superhero who didn?t have any actual superpowers On 2021-10-07 22:27, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat wrote: > The Spirit comes to mind. How about the Black Widow? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Fri Oct 8 16:26:47 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 09:26:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Superheroes without superpowers In-Reply-To: References: <214cc908-332c-5f08-0e43-34e3a7fddb82@pobox.com> Message-ID: <00e501d7bc61$4a935c60$dfba1520$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Superheroes without superpowers >> On 07/10/2021 08:23, spike wrote: >>> Batman was the only known superhero who didn't have any actual superpowers On 2021-10-07 22:27, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat wrote: > The Spirit comes to mind. How about the Black Widow? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org _______________________________________________ Anton, your exception proves the point. The Black Widow had superpowers in a sense, for all women have superpowers: they get us boys to do whatever they want. It's like some kind of hypnosis or something. We are like Superman to their kryptonite: they make us go along, they somehow get their way with us, regardless of how silly is the whim. This particular instance is exaggerated, because she has that chiseled outta marble physique and of course that whole sexy Russian thing going. She is Natalia Alianovna "Natasha" Romanova; Russian: ??????? ????????? "??????" ???????? so of course she was able to seduce the superhero Hawkeye the archer. Perhaps one can define the superpower of the woman as being able to bring men with superpowers over to their cause. I struggle to understand it all in terms of evolutionary psychology, which is to date perhaps the best way to eff the ineffable: view life from the point of view of the DNA rather than from the view of the DNA envelope (us.) The DNA is really driving us, while making us feel like we are carrying the DNA. Note how un-PC is my post for daring to claim there is a difference between men and women. I might as well forget about running for any public office, ever. You know some yahoo would dig up this post, put it on Twitter, and it is all over for the old Spike Man. spike From spike at rainier66.com Fri Oct 8 16:54:16 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 09:54:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Superheroes without superpowers In-Reply-To: <00e501d7bc61$4a935c60$dfba1520$@rainier66.com> References: <214cc908-332c-5f08-0e43-34e3a7fddb82@pobox.com> <00e501d7bc61$4a935c60$dfba1520$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00f501d7bc65$21b926e0$652b74a0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: spike at rainier66.com : On 2021-10-07 22:27, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat wrote: > The Spirit comes to mind. >>:How about the Black Widow? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org _______________________________________________ >:Anton, your exception proves the point:This particular instance is exaggerated, because she has that chiseled outta marble physique and of course that whole sexy Russian thing going. She is Natalia Alianovna "Natasha" Romanova; Russian: ??????? ????????? "??????" ???????? so of course she was able to seduce the superhero Hawkeye the archer: spike Anton do let me anticipate your objection, that the archer Hawkeye didn't have superpowers. If that thought occurred to you, I would say on the contrary sir, he did. Note the chiseled physique, and recognize that it is impossible to be put together like that without steroids. Such a build is as unlikely as the ever-popular Barbie, who is of a similarly unlikely build, unachievable in the flesh, a pinnacle of idealism reached only in plastic with the help of Mattel Toy Company. The champion bodybuilder of his day, Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger introduced the world to steroids for body building. One can be sure that no one has seriously competed in that sport without them in about the past fifty years. If one wishes to argue that steroids are a technology rather than a superpower, I again argue to the contrary, for the radioactive spider bite which gave Peter Parker superpower strength is a technology. Same with Bruce Bannon, who became the hulk (intermittently (and inexplicably (but to the delight of clothing merchants))) in a gamma ray radiation accident, which is clearly a technology. All of this is a good thing however, for that line or reasoning, the paradigm of technology as a path to superpowers, leads to my earlier observation that everyone here has Bat powers, in a limited sense. We don't have Bruce Wayne't money, but we can buy things that Bruce couldn't have purchased (or even scarcely imagined) with all his millions. (Millions, heh, sounds paltry indeed by today's lofty standards (that in itself is telling us something important (that even ordinary people are rich by the paltry standards of my own tragically misspent childhood (squandered on comic books and the Bat Channel, ja?)))) Conclusion: technology doesn't need to be mysterious for the abilities it confers upon us to be considered superpowers. Vaccines give us supernatural immunity, which is a kind of superpower (assuming they work.) Superpowers don't need to come from another planet nor do they need to be as inexplicable as why Superman flew with one fist extended. We, the humans of today's planet earth, are inventing and giving ourselves superpowers. Is this just wicked cool or what? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 29864 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Fri Oct 8 16:58:19 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 17:58:19 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Superheroes without superpowers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0cd1e5ce-64e8-e14f-bc72-4542da0c562d@zaiboc.net> On 08/10/2021 17:08, Tristan Linck wrote: > I will say looking in a Bat-direction will not prove fruitful on this > particular question Weeeeel, that's not entirely true, either... (at least where the music's concerned) Come on, it's not that hard. You just need a musical instrument, the tiniest ability to read music, and to have been alive (and listening to contemporary music) in the early 1970s. Ben From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 17:18:13 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 12:18:13 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Superheroes without superpowers In-Reply-To: <00e501d7bc61$4a935c60$dfba1520$@rainier66.com> References: <214cc908-332c-5f08-0e43-34e3a7fddb82@pobox.com> <00e501d7bc61$4a935c60$dfba1520$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: How women control men: In one of Terry Prachett's books there is a talking dog. He gets in a situation where a pack of wild dogs is attacking. No worries, he says. I have the Power!. So when the dogs get close he says "Bad Dog!" and all the dogs get on the ground and grovel and whine. This is not dissimilar from man's response to women's words. A wife's words recall a husband's mother and the power they have. Also, a woman can shame a man in many ways, some sexual. So, a woman who knows all this has the Power to bring her husband down with just a word or two with the right reflections. Men know this. The weakest of them even call their wives "Mother" (even worse "My old lady", which equals -"My controller") . How Freudian is that? Wimp city. So am I saying "I understand women and wives!"? Yes I am. I am on to their tricks (and probably they are on to mine). bill w On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 11:28 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ...> On Behalf Of Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] Superheroes without superpowers > > >> On 07/10/2021 08:23, spike wrote: > >>> Batman was the only known superhero who didn't have any actual > superpowers > > On 2021-10-07 22:27, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat wrote: > > The Spirit comes to mind. > > How about the Black Widow? > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Anton, your exception proves the point. The Black Widow had superpowers in > a sense, for all women have superpowers: they get us boys to do whatever > they want. It's like some kind of hypnosis or something. We are like > Superman to their kryptonite: they make us go along, they somehow get their > way with us, regardless of how silly is the whim. > > This particular instance is exaggerated, because she has that chiseled > outta > marble physique and of course that whole sexy Russian thing going. She is > Natalia Alianovna "Natasha" Romanova; Russian: ??????? ????????? "??????" > ???????? so of course she was able to seduce the superhero Hawkeye the > archer. > > Perhaps one can define the superpower of the woman as being able to bring > men with superpowers over to their cause. I struggle to understand it all > in terms of evolutionary psychology, which is to date perhaps the best way > to eff the ineffable: view life from the point of view of the DNA rather > than from the view of the DNA envelope (us.) The DNA is really driving us, > while making us feel like we are carrying the DNA. > > Note how un-PC is my post for daring to claim there is a difference between > men and women. I might as well forget about running for any public office, > ever. You know some yahoo would dig up this post, put it on Twitter, and > it > is all over for the old Spike Man. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emerhorne at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 17:29:24 2021 From: emerhorne at gmail.com (Tristan Linck) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 13:29:24 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Superheroes without superpowers In-Reply-To: <0cd1e5ce-64e8-e14f-bc72-4542da0c562d@zaiboc.net> References: <0cd1e5ce-64e8-e14f-bc72-4542da0c562d@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 8, 2021, 13:03 Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 08/10/2021 17:08, Tristan Linck wrote: > > I will say looking in a Bat-direction will not prove fruitful on this > > particular question > > Weeeeel, that's not entirely true, either... > > (at least where the music's concerned) > OK, I do feel a little bad that I forgot about the bat connection on that side. > Come on, it's not that hard. You just need a musical instrument, the > tiniest ability to read music, and to have been alive (and listening to > contemporary music) in the early 1970s. In my defense, both the music and the bat were before my time. Turns out you don't even need to have been alive at the time! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 18:52:56 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 11:52:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Superheroes without superpowers In-Reply-To: <00f501d7bc65$21b926e0$652b74a0$@rainier66.com> References: <214cc908-332c-5f08-0e43-34e3a7fddb82@pobox.com> <00e501d7bc61$4a935c60$dfba1520$@rainier66.com> <00f501d7bc65$21b926e0$652b74a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 9:56 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Conclusion: technology doesn?t need to be mysterious for the abilities it > confers upon us to be considered superpowers. > Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Magic is commonly recognized as a superpower. Q.E.D. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 22:38:49 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 17:38:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] a good laugh Message-ID: from Krugman's column , one possible way out would be to exploit an apparent legal loophole by minting a platinum coin with a huge face value, say $1 trillion, depositing that coin in an account at the Fed, then drawing on that account to pay the government?s bills bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 22:46:23 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 17:46:23 -0500 Subject: [ExI] a different kind of bat cave Message-ID: from the NYT - bill w 10. And finally, when you go to the loo, a bat might go boo. In Tanzania, the spaces under certain pit latrines have become cozy havens for roosting bats. A new study found that pit toilets have everything a bat could want : moist air, warm and temperature-controlled conditions, and protection from predators that cannot crawl through the drop hole. Leejiah Dorward, a postdoctoral researcher at Bangor University in Wales, began to survey the pit toilets in 2017, using a precarious photography method. He later taped a small mirror and flashlight to angled aluminum rods, allowing him to count all the bats, which clung to the wooden bars that held up the concrete slab covering the hole. His suspicions were confirmed ? the older the latrine, the more bats to be found. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Oct 8 22:57:53 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 15:57:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] a good laugh In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004b01d7bc97$eda42480$c8ec6d80$@rainier66.com> From: William Flynn Wallace Subject: a good laugh from Krugman's column >? one possible way out would be to exploit an apparent legal loophole by minting a platinum coin with a huge face value, say $1 trillion, depositing that coin in an account at the Fed, then drawing on that account to pay the government?s bills bill w Cool, why didn?t we do this a long time ago? But platinum is relatively rare, and if they are using up several grams of the stuff every time they need a trillion dollars, why not substitute some other more common material, such as copper or steel? If a multi-trillion dollar spending bill can be covered by minting a few copper or steel coins, why don?t we use a roll of those to pay the national debt? Then we can use a couple a year to replace taxes, add a couple more and carry the US budget. And if spending doesn?t add to the national debt, we don?t need to increase the borrowing limit. But this is all US politics. Please if anyone outside the US has any comments to make, you may feel free to post me offlist. I don?t want us getting in trouble with ExiMod. Brits and Italians, what does it look like from your perspective? Why didn?t Britain ever come up with the idea of just minting a trillion pound coin? Even Zimbabwe figured out this very simple answer to runaway debt: mint the mighty quadringentillion dollar note: Then sell the quads to American tourists and gag-gift buyers for 3 bucks. I learned that a quadingentillion is (1000)^400 or 10^1203. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 41037 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Oct 9 11:01:04 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 12:01:04 +0100 Subject: [ExI] AI enhancement of blurred photos Message-ID: This feature is now becoming generally available. At least two websites, plus some Chinese sites can do this. Sample photo [image: demo2.jpg] This AI processing is getting really impressive! BillK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: demo2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 9450 bytes Desc: not available URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Oct 9 14:08:17 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 09:08:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] decaf Message-ID: Awhile back I asked the groups about a quality decaf. I tried Stumptown, Verona, and others, with no success. Most I found tasteless. But I have found one and it's great: Moka Java SWP from Sweetmarias. I will now buy nothing else. Three minutes in a popcorn popper and you are ready (ask me how). Most people have never had a cup of coffee outside of Starbucks etc. that wasn't stale when they bought it. Some people buy five pounds of ground coffee at a time. Stale stale stale. Roast your own and taste the difference, at the cost of a popcorn popper. billw -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Oct 9 14:22:45 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 09:22:45 -0500 Subject: [ExI] AI enhancement of blurred photos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: She's a Victoria's Secret model. You should see her body. I do wonder if women find some men so fantastically beautiful and attractive as we see a few women? I look at Brad Pitt and see just another guy. Cary Grant I can understand. bill w On Sat, Oct 9, 2021 at 6:03 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > This feature is now becoming generally available. > At least two websites, plus some Chinese sites can do this. > > > Sample photo > [image: demo2.jpg] > > This AI processing is getting really impressive! > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: demo2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 9450 bytes Desc: not available URL: From moulton at moulton.com Sat Oct 9 15:54:48 2021 From: moulton at moulton.com (F. C. Moulton) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 08:54:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] a good laugh In-Reply-To: <004b01d7bc97$eda42480$c8ec6d80$@rainier66.com> References: <004b01d7bc97$eda42480$c8ec6d80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <8647639f-1e24-4f74-7e7a-9076013a0eb3@moulton.com> The idea for a high value coin has been around for a long time; some history at: https://reason.com/2021/10/08/the-hidden-history-of-the-trillion-dollar-coin/ On 10/8/21 3:57 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > *From:* William Flynn Wallace > *Subject:* a good laugh > > from Krugman's column > >>?one possible way out would be to exploit an apparent legal loophole by > minting a platinum coin > ?with > a huge face value, say $1 trillion, depositing that coin in an account > at the Fed, then drawing on that account to pay the government?s bills > > bill w > > Cool, why didn?t we do this a long time ago? > > But platinum is relatively rare, and if they are using up several grams > of the stuff every time they need a trillion dollars, why not substitute > some other more common material, such as copper or steel? > > If a multi-trillion dollar spending bill can be covered by minting a few > copper or steel coins, why don?t we use a roll of those to pay the > national debt?? Then we can use a couple a year to replace taxes, add a > couple more and carry the US budget.? And if spending doesn?t add to the > national debt, we don?t need to increase the borrowing limit. > > But this is all US politics.? Please if anyone outside the US has any > comments to make, you may feel free to post me offlist.? I don?t want us > getting in trouble with ExiMod. > > Brits and Italians, what does it look like from your perspective?? Why > didn?t Britain ever come up with the idea of just minting a trillion > pound coin?? Even Zimbabwe figured out this very simple answer to > runaway debt: mint the mighty quadringentillion dollar note: > > Then sell the quads to American tourists and gag-gift buyers for 3 bucks. > > I learned that a quadingentillion is (1000)^400 or 10^1203. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- F. C. Moulton moulton at moulton.com From bmd54321 at gmail.com Sat Oct 9 17:34:12 2021 From: bmd54321 at gmail.com (Brian Manning Delaney) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 13:34:12 -0400 Subject: [ExI] decaf In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Most people have never had a cup of coffee outside of Starbucks etc. > that wasn't stale when they bought it.? Some people buy five pounds of > ground coffee at a time.? Stale stale stale. Roast your own and taste > the difference, at the cost of a popcorn popper. Indeed. In fact: stale, and burned ("dark roast" ? cough) in order to cover the staleness (and, often, moldiness). > Three minutes in a popcorn popper and you are ready (ask me how). How? :) Brian -- Brian M. Delaney Clinical Trials Liaison Rapid Deployment Vaccine Collaborative (RaDVaC) radvac.org Founder Emerging Longevity Ventures EmergingLongevityVentures.com President Age Reversal Network age-reversal.net From dsunley at gmail.com Sat Oct 9 17:43:36 2021 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 11:43:36 -0600 Subject: [ExI] a good laugh In-Reply-To: <8647639f-1e24-4f74-7e7a-9076013a0eb3@moulton.com> References: <004b01d7bc97$eda42480$c8ec6d80$@rainier66.com> <8647639f-1e24-4f74-7e7a-9076013a0eb3@moulton.com> Message-ID: I've had a game of Cookie Clicker running for a few months. I'm up to 16.9 quadrillion cookies per second, but all the upgrades I can purchase are in the high quadrillions, mid quintillions, or low sextillions of cookies. That's the Zimbabwe lesson. The number of zeros on the ends of all the price tags don't matter. It's how long it takes you to earn enough currency to afford your needs and wants. The relative value of your needs, compared to the relative value of your labor. Everything else is just a game for financial professionals. On Sat, Oct 9, 2021 at 9:56 AM F. C. Moulton via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > The idea for a high value coin has been around for a long time; some > history at: > > https://reason.com/2021/10/08/the-hidden-history-of-the-trillion-dollar-coin/ > > > On 10/8/21 3:57 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > *From:* William Flynn Wallace > > *Subject:* a good laugh > > > > from Krugman's column > > > >>?one possible way out would be to exploit an apparent legal loophole by > > minting a platinum coin > > < > https://nl.nytimes.com/f/newsletter/b4dtI5rwAikyBwQmgGZipg~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRjQwZkP0TwaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubnl0aW1lcy5jb20vMjAyMS8xMC8wMS9vcGluaW9uL2JpZGVuLWNvaW4tZGVtb2NyYXQtcmVwdWJsaWNhbi1kZWJ0LWxpbWl0Lmh0bWw_Y2FtcGFpZ25faWQ9MTE2JmVtYz1lZGl0X3BrXzIwMjExMDA4Jmluc3RhbmNlX2lkPTQyNDAxJm5sPXBhdWwta3J1Z21hbiZyZWdpX2lkPTY0MTU5Nzc2JnNlZ21lbnRfaWQ9NzEwNjAmdGU9MSZ1c2VyX2lkPTVlNzExMzliNzlhYjE0MzNkMDc3MTBkOGY4ODM1NmM4VwNueXRCCmFfZIFgYT_hCG1SE2Zvb3psZXI4M0BnbWFpbC5jb21YBAAAAAA~> with > > > a huge face value, say $1 trillion, depositing that coin in an account > > at the Fed, then drawing on that account to pay the government?s bills > > > > bill w > > > > Cool, why didn?t we do this a long time ago? > > > > But platinum is relatively rare, and if they are using up several grams > > of the stuff every time they need a trillion dollars, why not substitute > > some other more common material, such as copper or steel? > > > > If a multi-trillion dollar spending bill can be covered by minting a few > > copper or steel coins, why don?t we use a roll of those to pay the > > national debt? Then we can use a couple a year to replace taxes, add a > > couple more and carry the US budget. And if spending doesn?t add to the > > national debt, we don?t need to increase the borrowing limit. > > > > But this is all US politics. Please if anyone outside the US has any > > comments to make, you may feel free to post me offlist. I don?t want us > > getting in trouble with ExiMod. > > > > Brits and Italians, what does it look like from your perspective? Why > > didn?t Britain ever come up with the idea of just minting a trillion > > pound coin? Even Zimbabwe figured out this very simple answer to > > runaway debt: mint the mighty quadringentillion dollar note: > > > > Then sell the quads to American tourists and gag-gift buyers for 3 bucks. > > > > I learned that a quadingentillion is (1000)^400 or 10^1203. > > > > spike > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > > -- > F. C. Moulton > moulton at moulton.com > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Oct 9 18:50:18 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 11:50:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] a good laugh In-Reply-To: References: <004b01d7bc97$eda42480$c8ec6d80$@rainier66.com> <8647639f-1e24-4f74-7e7a-9076013a0eb3@moulton.com> Message-ID: <00a101d7bd3e$81849210$848db630$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Darin Sunley via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] a good laugh ? >?That's the Zimbabwe lesson. The number of zeros on the ends of all the price tags don't matter. It's how long it takes you to earn enough currency to afford your needs and wants. The relative value of your needs, compared to the relative value of your labor. Everything else is just a game for financial professionals? Darin Darin, I see the Zimbabwe experience as a useful lesson in economics to the whole world. It would do many of the proponents of the trillion dollar coin notion a lotta good if they were to make friends with people who have been thru hyperinflation. I have such friends, most of them from Vietnam, two families from Ukraine, a family who was travelling in South America during a time when the local grocery store took all the price tags off of everything, because they didn?t know what stuff was worth. They had to look up the spot-price on the currency, then look at the past several days, estimate what the new stock would cost by the time they could get the currency to the bank or exchange it for American dollars, then estimate the cost of the groceries from that. My son?s best friend is from Ukraine. When his parents were married, the (very large) family gave them donations which would amount to enough money to make a 10% down payment on a relatively nice house. Being young and carefree, they chose to go on a lark, travel all around Europe first class, blew almost all the money. When they got back after 8 weeks, Ukraine was in the 1993 currency hyperinflation where they estimate the currency dropped in value by a factor of 37. Had they saved the money in the bank, it would be scarcely enough to buy two coats. Two months in Europe first class was equal to two winter coats. The house they could have bought would have been taken from them because their lending agency failed. They present the experience as one of the extremely rare times where youthful exuberance led them to do the right thing. Minting trillion dollar coins, or even one of them, would be admitting to the world that the government pulling such a stunt will not honor the value of its own fiat currency. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 27666 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Sat Oct 9 18:58:22 2021 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 12:58:22 -0600 Subject: [ExI] a good laugh In-Reply-To: <00a101d7bd3e$81849210$848db630$@rainier66.com> References: <004b01d7bc97$eda42480$c8ec6d80$@rainier66.com> <8647639f-1e24-4f74-7e7a-9076013a0eb3@moulton.com> <00a101d7bd3e$81849210$848db630$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The good thing about fiat currencies is they allow governments to make their own financial policy. Also, contra a noninflationary gold- or crypto currency, they work better in a technological/economic regime where value can be actively created, and not just transferred around. The bad thing about fiat currencies is that they give governments the freedom to make really stupid mistakes with them, relative to the surrounding governments. The value of a Ukrainian worker's labor 6 months earlier, placed in a store of value, did not suddenly become 37 times lower than e.g. the equivalent labor of a Polish worker, just because the Ukranian government made some stupid policy decisions and emonstrated itself to be nontrustworthy. On Sat, Oct 9, 2021 at 12:50 PM wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Darin Sunley via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] a good laugh > > > > ? > > >?That's the Zimbabwe lesson. The number of zeros on the ends of all the > price tags don't matter. It's how long it takes you to earn enough currency > to afford your needs and wants. The relative value of your needs, compared > to the relative value of your labor. Everything else is just a game for > financial professionals? Darin > > > > > > Darin, I see the Zimbabwe experience as a useful lesson in economics to > the whole world. > > > > > > It would do many of the proponents of the trillion dollar coin notion a > lotta good if they were to make friends with people who have been thru > hyperinflation. I have such friends, most of them from Vietnam, two > families from Ukraine, a family who was travelling in South America during > a time when the local grocery store took all the price tags off of > everything, because they didn?t know what stuff was worth. They had to > look up the spot-price on the currency, then look at the past several days, > estimate what the new stock would cost by the time they could get the > currency to the bank or exchange it for American dollars, then estimate the > cost of the groceries from that. > > > > My son?s best friend is from Ukraine. When his parents were married, the > (very large) family gave them donations which would amount to enough money > to make a 10% down payment on a relatively nice house. Being young and > carefree, they chose to go on a lark, travel all around Europe first class, > blew almost all the money. When they got back after 8 weeks, Ukraine was > in the 1993 currency hyperinflation where they estimate the currency > dropped in value by a factor of 37. Had they saved the money in the bank, > it would be scarcely enough to buy two coats. Two months in Europe first > class was equal to two winter coats. The house they could have bought > would have been taken from them because their lending agency failed. They > present the experience as one of the extremely rare times where youthful > exuberance led them to do the right thing. > > > > Minting trillion dollar coins, or even one of them, would be admitting to > the world that the government pulling such a stunt will not honor the value > of its own fiat currency. > > > > spike > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 27666 bytes Desc: not available URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Oct 9 19:06:21 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 14:06:21 -0500 Subject: [ExI] decaf In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Get a PopsRite or one that has the heat coming from the bottom, not the sides. Take off the top and store it. Put in about 2/3 of a cup of green beans, plug it in and get a long stick to stir it with or the beans will go everywhere Stir the whole time. When you hear what is called the first crack, start counting slowly. A medium roast will be about 60, dark about 90, but each bean is a bit different. Total time about 5 minutes. The next time you roast you can increase or decrease the count according to your taste. Very dark is a French roast. Beyond that all you have is carbon. Totally black. Let the popper rest awhile before doing a second batch. Roast outside. The smell will infuse your house. I have roasted inside on the stove with the exhaust fan on high. No exhaust fan? Put on your coat. Decaf is a bit different. You will find that you have to use a cup or so of beans. My regular coffee is a Gesha, sometimes called Geisha (mistakenly). Sumatra coffee is very different, and so on. At around $7 a pound you can experiment. My former favorite was a Yirgacheffe. So many choices. Mostly I buy from SweetMarias. Right now I am mixing a Panama Gesha half and half with the Moka Java. I buy a lot at a time because you can't get your favorite bean year round. If you get into it you might be tempted to buy expensive roasters and grinders, but the popper works well for me and an under $50 grinder works just fine. I don't do anything to make the beans cool faster. Just pour them into a bowl and wait. There are chemical reactions going on which will take about 3 hours, so don't try to brew any before that. I also use a French press made by Thermos which, unlike other brands, you have to decant into something else, keeps your coffee hot. More recommendations as requested. bill w On Sat, Oct 9, 2021 at 12:36 PM Brian Manning Delaney via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > Most people have never had a cup of coffee outside of Starbucks etc. > > that wasn't stale when they bought it. Some people buy five pounds of > > ground coffee at a time. Stale stale stale. Roast your own and taste > > the difference, at the cost of a popcorn popper. > > Indeed. In fact: stale, and burned ("dark roast" ? cough) in order to > cover the staleness (and, often, moldiness). > > > Three minutes in a popcorn popper and you are ready (ask me how). > > How? :) > > Brian > > > -- > Brian M. Delaney > > Clinical Trials Liaison > Rapid Deployment Vaccine Collaborative (RaDVaC) > radvac.org > > Founder > Emerging Longevity Ventures > EmergingLongevityVentures.com > > President > Age Reversal Network > age-reversal.net > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Oct 9 19:15:42 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 12:15:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] a good laugh In-Reply-To: References: <004b01d7bc97$eda42480$c8ec6d80$@rainier66.com> <8647639f-1e24-4f74-7e7a-9076013a0eb3@moulton.com> <00a101d7bd3e$81849210$848db630$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00c401d7bd42$0e133530$2a399f90$@rainier66.com> From: Darin Sunley ? Subject: Re: [ExI] a good laugh >? The value of a Ukrainian worker's labor 6 months earlier, placed in a store of value, did not suddenly become 37 times lower than e.g. the equivalent labor of a Polish worker, just because the Ukranian government made some stupid policy decisions and emonstrated itself to be nontrustworthy? Darin Ja. Hi Darin, hyperinflation makes winners and losers. For instance, there are Ukrainians who labored and struggled and saved for years or decades, they are old and tired, then suddenly their carefully horded savings are washed away in a flash flood of inflation. They became completely dependent on their government for survival. But my newlywed friends from Ukraine in 1993 had no savings and both had freshly-minted PhDs in particle physics from the U of Kiev. Their careers stretched out ahead of them. With nothing to hold them in bankrupt Ukraine, they left and went to work in Europe, bouncing around here and there, accumulating wealth and remembering the lessons learned in the Ukrainian hyperinflation. My son?s friend was born in 2006. Both mother and son had medical problems. The free medical system in the country where they lived nearly killed them both. When he was age 2, his father took a temporary duty on the east coast in the USA. He loved it here, so he asked his bride to come over. She did, with no intentions of staying. Her version of the story is that he took her out to a restaurant, got down on one knee and proposed they move to the states, which was far more elaborate a proposal than he had made when they became engaged. His sincerely exceeded anything she had seen in their 12 years of married life. She didn?t want to stay, but (according to her story) it was the best steak she had ever tasted in her life (she is a foodie (and a most excellent cook.)) She reluctantly agreed to stay. They were naturalized a few years later and moved to California where their son started school. Now, she and her husband are merit badge counselors for our scout troop, where they teach Citizenship in the World. They are a most unique couple who have traveled the world extensively and have lived under communism, socialism and capitalism. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Oct 9 19:19:15 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 14:19:15 -0500 Subject: [ExI] a good laugh In-Reply-To: <00c401d7bd42$0e133530$2a399f90$@rainier66.com> References: <004b01d7bc97$eda42480$c8ec6d80$@rainier66.com> <8647639f-1e24-4f74-7e7a-9076013a0eb3@moulton.com> <00a101d7bd3e$81849210$848db630$@rainier66.com> <00c401d7bd42$0e133530$2a399f90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: grammar guy - some would argue that 'unique' takes no qualifiers. bill w On Sat, Oct 9, 2021 at 2:17 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* Darin Sunley > *?* > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] a good laugh > > > > >? The value of a Ukrainian worker's labor 6 months earlier, placed in a > store of value, did not suddenly become 37 times lower than e.g. the > equivalent labor of a Polish worker, just because the Ukranian government > made some stupid policy decisions and emonstrated itself to be > nontrustworthy? Darin > > > > > > Ja. > > > > Hi Darin, hyperinflation makes winners and losers. For instance, there > are Ukrainians who labored and struggled and saved for years or decades, > they are old and tired, then suddenly their carefully horded savings are > washed away in a flash flood of inflation. They became completely > dependent on their government for survival. > > > > But my newlywed friends from Ukraine in 1993 had no savings and both had > freshly-minted PhDs in particle physics from the U of Kiev. Their careers > stretched out ahead of them. > > > > With nothing to hold them in bankrupt Ukraine, they left and went to work > in Europe, bouncing around here and there, accumulating wealth and > remembering the lessons learned in the Ukrainian hyperinflation. > > > > My son?s friend was born in 2006. Both mother and son had medical > problems. The free medical system in the country where they lived nearly > killed them both. When he was age 2, his father took a temporary duty on > the east coast in the USA. He loved it here, so he asked his bride to come > over. She did, with no intentions of staying. > > > > Her version of the story is that he took her out to a restaurant, got down > on one knee and proposed they move to the states, which was far more > elaborate a proposal than he had made when they became engaged. His > sincerely exceeded anything she had seen in their 12 years of married > life. She didn?t want to stay, but (according to her story) it was the > best steak she had ever tasted in her life (she is a foodie (and a most > excellent cook.)) She reluctantly agreed to stay. They were naturalized a > few years later and moved to California where their son started school. > > > > Now, she and her husband are merit badge counselors for our scout troop, > where they teach Citizenship in the World. They are a most unique couple > who have traveled the world extensively and have lived under communism, > socialism and capitalism. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Oct 9 19:56:15 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 12:56:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] decaf In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00f401d7bd47$b88c7760$29a56620$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Saturday, October 9, 2021 12:06 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: Re: [ExI] decaf >? Put in about 2/3 of a cup of green beans, plug it in and get a long stick to stir it with or the beans will go everywhere?Stir the whole time. When you hear what is called the first crack, start counting slowly? bill w Hey cool, Billw, if we can work out the technical difficulties, we can make buttloads on a new snack item: popcoffee. We take whatever seems to work for corn, do that with coffee beans. Create a nice fluffy snack with some SNAP! Like black popcorn, but with ATTITUDE! Think about the applications, legitimate ones, never mind the cool gags you could pull with that stuff. If we find out that coffee won?t pop, then we figure out what corn has going for it, do some genetic manipulations, create caffeinated popcorn. It wouldn?t even need to be black really: Mountain Dew soda has twice the caffeine (love that stuff) but it is piss-yellow (why the marketing people thought that was a good idea is a mystery (blue is the right color for that application (it would even rhyme (bet that would sell a lot better (sheesh my whole life was wasted on rocket scientist (tragic waste of a marketing guy.)))))) Hey the whole vaping thing is getting a bad rap. If we can make caffeinated popcorn using some kind of genetic manipulation, we aughta be able to make nicotinized coffee, ja? Or perhaps popcorn with both caffeine and nicotine? Within each of us is our own inner mad scientist trying to get out. Eh, so mine?s ahead of yours. And might be still more insane. We humans may have created a murderous virus which has slain millions and continues to kill, but there should be good stuff we can do with genetic manipulation too. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Oct 9 20:16:20 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 13:16:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] a good laugh In-Reply-To: References: <004b01d7bc97$eda42480$c8ec6d80$@rainier66.com> <8647639f-1e24-4f74-7e7a-9076013a0eb3@moulton.com> <00a101d7bd3e$81849210$848db630$@rainier66.com> <00c401d7bd42$0e133530$2a399f90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00ff01d7bd4a$86a9e630$93fdb290$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] a good laugh >?grammar guy - some would argue that 'unique' takes no qualifiers. bill w That?s a unique idea billw, but given a few minutes I might be able to come up with one which is uniquer. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Oct 9 21:18:46 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 16:18:46 -0500 Subject: [ExI] a good laugh In-Reply-To: <00ff01d7bd4a$86a9e630$93fdb290$@rainier66.com> References: <004b01d7bc97$eda42480$c8ec6d80$@rainier66.com> <8647639f-1e24-4f74-7e7a-9076013a0eb3@moulton.com> <00a101d7bd3e$81849210$848db630$@rainier66.com> <00c401d7bd42$0e133530$2a399f90$@rainier66.com> <00ff01d7bd4a$86a9e630$93fdb290$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Given time maybe you can make it more perfect. bill w On Sat, Oct 9, 2021 at 3:18 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] a good laugh > > > > >?grammar guy - some would argue that 'unique' takes no qualifiers. > bill w > > > > > > That?s a unique idea billw, but given a few minutes I might be able to > come up with one which is uniquer. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Oct 9 22:30:50 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 15:30:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] a good laugh In-Reply-To: References: <004b01d7bc97$eda42480$c8ec6d80$@rainier66.com> <8647639f-1e24-4f74-7e7a-9076013a0eb3@moulton.com> <00a101d7bd3e$81849210$848db630$@rainier66.com> <00c401d7bd42$0e133530$2a399f90$@rainier66.com> <00ff01d7bd4a$86a9e630$93fdb290$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001201d7bd5d$50b55bf0$f22013d0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] a good laugh >?Given time maybe you can make it more perfect. bill w The union would object. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Oct 10 15:31:32 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 10:31:32 -0500 Subject: [ExI] what now? Message-ID: Tech help needed! First it was a two year old Sony Bravia -had to go to the shop!! (did I notice that it had only a 1 year guarantee?). Sony tech support said that it needed service but they had no service centers in Mississippi. Called a TV guy; shared old stories about when better parts went into electronic gear, like when a microwave oven was hard to pick up. Then the coffee grinder - less than a year old - won't start. Now the iPhone won't respond to swiping up. Help!! bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bmd54321 at gmail.com Sun Oct 10 15:39:28 2021 From: bmd54321 at gmail.com (Brian Manning Delaney) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 11:39:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] a good laugh In-Reply-To: <001201d7bd5d$50b55bf0$f22013d0$@rainier66.com> References: <004b01d7bc97$eda42480$c8ec6d80$@rainier66.com> <8647639f-1e24-4f74-7e7a-9076013a0eb3@moulton.com> <00a101d7bd3e$81849210$848db630$@rainier66.com> <00c401d7bd42$0e133530$2a399f90$@rainier66.com> <00ff01d7bd4a$86a9e630$93fdb290$@rainier66.com> <001201d7bd5d$50b55bf0$f22013d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <1880b5d5-a9c3-8f8d-861c-e68cb3ff3c96@gmail.com> El 2021-10-09 a las 18:30, spike jones via extropy-chat escribi?: > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] a good laugh > > >?Given time maybe you can make it more perfect.? ?bill w > > The union would object. > > You mean "Union", though maybe the elimination of once lingering Germanic orthographic habits establishes, once and for all, perfection. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Oct 10 15:40:25 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 08:40:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] what now? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is it out of power? What happens if you plug it in? On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 8:33 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Tech help needed! > > First it was a two year old Sony Bravia -had to go to the shop!! (did I > notice that it had only a 1 year guarantee?). Sony tech support said that > it needed service but they had no service centers in Mississippi. Called a > TV guy; shared old stories about when better parts went into electronic > gear, like when a microwave oven was hard to pick up. > > Then the coffee grinder - less than a year old - won't start. > > Now the iPhone won't respond to swiping up. Help!! > > bill w > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Oct 10 15:49:23 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 10:49:23 -0500 Subject: [ExI] what now? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I plugged it in and it showed 83% power On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 10:46 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Is it out of power? What happens if you plug it in? > > On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 8:33 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Tech help needed! >> >> First it was a two year old Sony Bravia -had to go to the shop!! (did I >> notice that it had only a 1 year guarantee?). Sony tech support said that >> it needed service but they had no service centers in Mississippi. Called a >> TV guy; shared old stories about when better parts went into electronic >> gear, like when a microwave oven was hard to pick up. >> >> Then the coffee grinder - less than a year old - won't start. >> >> Now the iPhone won't respond to swiping up. Help!! >> >> bill w >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Oct 10 15:52:20 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 10:52:20 -0500 Subject: [ExI] iphone Message-ID: My 13 year old neighbor fixed it. She just shut it off then on. AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGH!!!! bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Oct 10 16:17:39 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 09:17:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] iphone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005b01d7bdf2$5930baa0$0b922fe0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] iphone My 13 year old neighbor fixed it. She just shut it off then on. AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGH!!!! bill w At some point, we reflect on an obvious question: What do we look like from a teenager?s point of view? {8^D spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Oct 10 16:44:46 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 11:44:46 -0500 Subject: [ExI] iphone In-Reply-To: <005b01d7bdf2$5930baa0$0b922fe0$@rainier66.com> References: <005b01d7bdf2$5930baa0$0b922fe0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 11:19 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* [ExI] iphone > > > > My 13 year old neighbor fixed it. She just shut it off then on. > > > > AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGH!!!! > > > > bill w > > > > > > > > At some point, we reflect on an obvious question: What do we look like > from a teenager?s point of view? > > > > {8^D > > > > spike Fossils; clueless; living in the last century (or before - > my Dad would be 124 years old) > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 05:56:20 2021 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 07:56:20 +0200 Subject: [ExI] iphone In-Reply-To: References: <005b01d7bdf2$5930baa0$0b922fe0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 6:46 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 11:19 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >> *Subject:* [ExI] iphone >> >> >> >> My 13 year old neighbor fixed it. She just shut it off then on. >> >> >> >> AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGH!!!! >> >> >> >> bill w >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> At some point, we reflect on an obvious question: What do we look like >> from a teenager?s point of view? >> > >> >> {8^D >> >> >> >> spike Fossils; clueless; living in the last century (or before >> - my Dad would be 124 years old) >> > Well we used to think the same of the generation of our parents, so this is only fair I guess. Their kids will think the same of them, and so forth... >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 19:48:15 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 14:48:15 -0500 Subject: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day Message-ID: [image: I am Enough] *I am Enough* requested your answerHow can I stop my brain from creating limiting beliefs? Like I be on a chill and I get a blue pen to take notes then I end up using black because I have a bad feeling about the blue pen. This is really one for Spike. I can only imagine what he would do with it. I am just going to delete it and not dis the guy. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Oct 12 21:36:03 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 14:36:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005501d7bfb1$28cf9b90$7a6ed2b0$@rainier66.com> ? Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day I am Enough requested your answer How can I stop my brain from creating limiting beliefs? Like I be on a chill and I get a blue pen to take notes then I end up using black because I have a bad feeling about the blue pen. This is really one for Spike. I can only imagine what he would do with it. I am just going to delete it and not dis the guy. bill w Good strategy Billw: let it go. I hung out on Quora long enough to recognize it isn?t worth hanging out there. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 368 bytes Desc: not available URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 23:03:24 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 18:03:24 -0500 Subject: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day In-Reply-To: <005501d7bfb1$28cf9b90$7a6ed2b0$@rainier66.com> References: <005501d7bfb1$28cf9b90$7a6ed2b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I delete about 90% or more, but the ones I do answer give me a chance to use my brain and teach someone something. In particular I emphasize never, ever arguing with anyone. I also tell guys never, ever call your woman's chest 'tits' much less 'titties'. Men have no sense. bill w On Tue, Oct 12, 2021 at 4:38 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?* > *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace > *Subject:* [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day > > > > > > [image: Image removed by sender. I am Enough] > > *I am Enough* requested your answer*How can I stop my brain from creating > limiting beliefs? Like I be on a chill and I get a blue pen to take notes > then I end up using black because I have a bad feeling about the blue pen.* > > > *This > is really one for Spike. I can only imagine what he would do with it. I > am just going to delete it and not dis the guy. bill w* > > > > > > > Good strategy Billw: let it go. > > > > I hung out on Quora long enough to recognize it isn?t worth hanging out > there. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 368 bytes Desc: not available URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 03:37:02 2021 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 23:37:02 -0400 Subject: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day In-Reply-To: References: <005501d7bfb1$28cf9b90$7a6ed2b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 7:06 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I delete about 90% or more, but the ones I do answer give me a chance to > use my brain and teach someone something. In particular I emphasize never, > ever arguing with anyone. I also tell guys never, ever call your > woman's chest 'tits' much less 'titties'. Men have no sense. > I might suggest never, ever "your woman" But tbh, english is too complicated to be of any use > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Oct 13 04:15:25 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 21:15:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day In-Reply-To: <005501d7bfb1$28cf9b90$7a6ed2b0$@rainier66.com> References: <005501d7bfb1$28cf9b90$7a6ed2b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001201d7bfe8$f31f1f60$d95d5e20$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com ? Cc: William Flynn Wallace > Subject: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day I am Enough requested your answer How can I stop my brain from creating limiting beliefs? Like I be on a chill and I get a blue pen to take notes then I end up using black because I have a bad feeling about the blue pen. This is really one for Spike. I can only imagine what he would do with it. I am just going to delete it and not dis the guy. bill w >?Good strategy Billw: let it go. >?I hung out on Quora long enough to recognize it isn?t worth hanging out there. spike Billw, I can write any goofy thing I want here, people know me. Most of us go way the heck back, so they just disregard, eh, spike goofing around again. It?s what he does best. But I can?t do that on Quora. If we can?t cut up and have fun, then it?s a party where I don?t want to be. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 368 bytes Desc: not available URL: From henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 10:48:42 2021 From: henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com (Henrik Ohrstrom) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 12:48:42 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Protective effects of immunization within family In-Reply-To: <96576496cea849ce8a73197f2dcadc50@regionorebrolan.se> References: <96576496cea849ce8a73197f2dcadc50@regionorebrolan.se> Message-ID: Immunization within the family protects members which have not been vaccinated or previously infected. Quite a lot too. /Henrik Association Between Risk of COVID-19 Infection in Nonimmune Individuals and COVID-19 Immunity in Their Family Members | Infectious Diseases | JAMA Internal Medicine | JAMA Network -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hibbard at wisc.edu Wed Oct 13 11:16:35 2021 From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 11:16:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] TGOHIFCB Message-ID: https://www.ssec.wisc.edu/~billh/g/tgohifcb.pdf From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 14:51:20 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 09:51:20 -0500 Subject: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day In-Reply-To: <001201d7bfe8$f31f1f60$d95d5e20$@rainier66.com> References: <005501d7bfb1$28cf9b90$7a6ed2b0$@rainier66.com> <001201d7bfe8$f31f1f60$d95d5e20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Did you get a 'goofiness' warning on Quora? bill w On Tue, Oct 12, 2021 at 11:17 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* spike at rainier66.com > > > > > > *?* > *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace > *Subject:* [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day > > > > > > [image: Image removed by sender. I am Enough] > > *I am Enough* requested your answer*How can I stop my brain from creating > limiting beliefs? Like I be on a chill and I get a blue pen to take notes > then I end up using black because I have a bad feeling about the blue pen.* > > > *This > is really one for Spike. I can only imagine what he would do with it. I > am just going to delete it and not dis the guy. bill w* > > > > > > > >?Good strategy Billw: let it go. > > > > >?I hung out on Quora long enough to recognize it isn?t worth hanging out > there. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > Billw, I can write any goofy thing I want here, people know me. Most of > us go way the heck back, so they just disregard, eh, spike goofing around > again. It?s what he does best. But I can?t do that on Quora. If we > can?t cut up and have fun, then it?s a party where I don?t want to be. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 368 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Oct 13 15:32:25 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 08:32:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day In-Reply-To: References: <005501d7bfb1$28cf9b90$7a6ed2b0$@rainier66.com> <001201d7bfe8$f31f1f60$d95d5e20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002401d7c047$8690da50$93b28ef0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day >?Did you get a 'goofiness' warning on Quora? bill w No, it was a notice that my post was inappropriate and not in keeping with the standards of Quora. A former college roommate had a gay guy at his office develop a crush on him. He was single, never married at age 41, so the guy took a chance and approached him. The guy said he couldn?t eat his lunch, he would get such an adrenaline rush whenever my friend was around it would upset his stomach etc. My friend was revolted, horrified, very annoyed, made a comment best not uttered in the office. My friend is an edgy guy so it doesn?t surprise me: he was approached by men at least twice in college, and I noted the reaction then. He posted to Quora asking what was the right thing to do in that case. I suggested putting on a Scottish brogue and handing him an alka-selzer: ?This is the best I can do for ye, me lad. I am straight as an arrow.? Eh, that?s how I handle tense situations. I don?t do anger. I would try for something perfectly clear but as light hearted as possible. Quora thought that answer didn?t meet their standards. Hmph. I thought it was a good response. Thoughts? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 18:02:43 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 13:02:43 -0500 Subject: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day In-Reply-To: <002401d7c047$8690da50$93b28ef0$@rainier66.com> References: <005501d7bfb1$28cf9b90$7a6ed2b0$@rainier66.com> <001201d7bfe8$f31f1f60$d95d5e20$@rainier66.com> <002401d7c047$8690da50$93b28ef0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Can you not see that most people would just scratch their heads at your answer? I gave mine a scratch or two. Anger doesn't, or shouldn't, come into it. "I am straight and so I am not interested. " If persistently pestered, go to the boss and report him after warning him that that is what you will do. The brogue idea is pretty far out but I would have let your answer stand. I have gotten a few warnings, mostly when I give a full and complete answer but it's only a sentence long. Loved the polar bear. bill w On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 10:35 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day > > > > >?Did you get a 'goofiness' warning on Quora? bill w > > > > > > No, it was a notice that my post was inappropriate and not in keeping with > the standards of Quora. > > > > A former college roommate had a gay guy at his office develop a crush on > him. He was single, never married at age 41, so the guy took a chance and > approached him. The guy said he couldn?t eat his lunch, he would get such > an adrenaline rush whenever my friend was around it would upset his stomach > etc. > > > > My friend was revolted, horrified, very annoyed, made a comment best not > uttered in the office. My friend is an edgy guy so it doesn?t surprise me: > he was approached by men at least twice in college, and I noted the > reaction then. He posted to Quora asking what was the right thing to do in > that case. > > > > I suggested putting on a Scottish brogue and handing him an alka-selzer: > ?This is the best I can do for ye, me lad. I am straight as an arrow.? > > > > Eh, that?s how I handle tense situations. I don?t do anger. I would try > for something perfectly clear but as light hearted as possible. Quora > thought that answer didn?t meet their standards. Hmph. I thought it was a > good response. Thoughts? > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Wed Oct 13 21:12:06 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 22:12:06 +0100 Subject: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 13/10/2021 00:03, billw wrote: > I also tell guys never, ever call your woman's?chest 'tits' much less > 'titties'. Maybe a cultural thing here, but I need to qualify this: "unless they do". Perhaps the standard Anglo-saxon terms are less acceptable in America than they are in their birthplace. Ben From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 21:26:12 2021 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 14:26:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6A38BA16-F54C-4A86-A49A-9469EB5D3271@gmail.com> Why even reveal that much? One can just say, ?Sorry, not interested.? I mean the other response kind of implies that if he weren?t straight, then he would be interested. (As if complementary sexual orientations must needs lead to dating or hookups.) One can be not straight and still not interested, no? Imagine, too, he (the person being asked) were a woman. I can imagine some folks asking her if she?d done anything to lead him on? I can also imagine the propositioners friends helping him with encouraging words and advice ? rather than saying, ?Look, she said No, just respect her decision.? Someone else pointed out the ?your woman? thing too. That reminded me of someone who calls their spouse ?my bride.? Regards, Dan > On Oct 13, 2021, at 11:05 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > ?Can you not see that most people would just scratch their heads at your answer? I gave mine a scratch or two. > > Anger doesn't, or shouldn't, come into it. "I am straight and so I am not interested. " If persistently pestered, go to the boss and report him after warning him that that is what you will do. > > The brogue idea is pretty far out but I would have let your answer stand. I have gotten a few warnings, mostly when I give a full and complete answer but it's only a sentence long. > > Loved the polar bear. > > bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 21:32:52 2021 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 14:32:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4800DD63-4CA6-45C0-ABD3-DF9BD6BBDAA0@gmail.com> On Oct 13, 2021, at 2:15 PM, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > ?On 13/10/2021 00:03, billw wrote: >> I also tell guys never, ever call your woman's chest 'tits' much less 'titties'. > > Maybe a cultural thing here, but I need to qualify this: "unless they do". > > Perhaps the standard Anglo-saxon terms are less acceptable in America than they are in their birthplace. Breast is also of Old English origin. Anyhow, I?m not sure how standard it was a thousand years ago or why that should guide current usage. You probably wouldn?t I trust use ?girl? to mean a child of any gender simply because that?s how the word was used even after the Norman conquest. Regards, Dan From spike at rainier66.com Wed Oct 13 21:41:08 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 14:41:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day In-Reply-To: <6A38BA16-F54C-4A86-A49A-9469EB5D3271@gmail.com> References: <6A38BA16-F54C-4A86-A49A-9469EB5D3271@gmail.com> Message-ID: <007f01d7c07b$09034a80$1b09df80$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat ? >?Someone else pointed out the ?your woman? thing too. That reminded me of someone who calls their spouse ?my bride.? >?Regards, Dan Dan my bride loves to be referred to that way. She calls me her man, so OK, she?s my bride. It works for us. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 22:09:43 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 17:09:43 -0500 Subject: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day In-Reply-To: <4800DD63-4CA6-45C0-ABD3-DF9BD6BBDAA0@gmail.com> References: <4800DD63-4CA6-45C0-ABD3-DF9BD6BBDAA0@gmail.com> Message-ID: 'Your woman' not OK? How about 'your mate'? 'Your baby'? 'Your squeeze' - an oldie there. 'Your old woman' definitely out. Women are conflicted the way most men aren't about their body parts. Breasts can be 'puppies'. Ravel wrote a piece called Les Mammelles de Ste. Teresias. Vaginas can be 'down there'. . An oldtimer psych prof when I started would tell girls to shut 'The Gates of Hell'. Hundreds of slang terms online. Reason? Anxiety. We somehow cannot stand medical terms even those are usually without anxiety. bill w On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 4:37 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Oct 13, 2021, at 2:15 PM, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ?On 13/10/2021 00:03, billw wrote: > >> I also tell guys never, ever call your woman's chest 'tits' much less > 'titties'. > > > > Maybe a cultural thing here, but I need to qualify this: "unless they > do". > > > > Perhaps the standard Anglo-saxon terms are less acceptable in America > than they are in their birthplace. > > Breast is also of Old English origin. Anyhow, I?m not sure how standard it > was a thousand years ago or why that should guide current usage. You > probably wouldn?t I trust use ?girl? to mean a child of any gender simply > because that?s how the word was used even after the Norman conquest. > > Regards, > > Dan > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 23:29:29 2021 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 16:29:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3377AB09-AE66-4116-9631-A18B940B0929@gmail.com> I?m not sure about what?s considered appropriate in polite French, so I?m not sure how shocking Ravel?s title was then or would be now. I wasn?t the one, though, focusing on ?tit.? Reread what I wrote. I was pointing out that ?breast? too was an Anglo-Saxon word (or is a close cognate to one). So, if the standard is going to ?use the Anglo-Saxon word,? it doesn?t decide the issue here. (I don?t think Anglo-Saxon usage should be the guide anyhow ? even if anyone did have a clear guide for it. Given what survived and surmises, I?m not even sure anyone has a clear idea to what the Anglo-Saxon person in the street (when ? given that the language was used for several hundred years and wasn?t static? where ? given that there were different dialects, so what was the norm in Northumbria might have been weird in Wessex?) would?ve used in the street, at home, at the market, etc.) The thing with ?your woman? is there?s a long history of thinking of women as property or at least as lacking full agency and needing make adult supervision, so the use of ?your? here tends to have a different tenor in that context than when saying ?your friend? or ?your gran.? The ?gates of hell? has a long history too. If you recall King Lear has a rant against women in Act IV Scene 6. Sure, your prof might?ve been using it to be polite. A friend of mine told me that in translating Flaubert, the problem is more with English having to choose between medical anatomy terms or vulgarities for parts of the human body. He gave me the idea that in French reference to these same things in ordinary speech wasn?t as danced around as in English. (Modern English usage is heir to Victorian prudishness and the Norman conquest. The former brings an avoidance of many things or topics in ?polite? conversation while the latter gave lexical class distinctive, such as the cow being what the cowherd deals with while beef being what the lord of the manor eats. Or so goes the simplified version.) Regards, Dan > On Oct 13, 2021, at 3:13 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > ? > 'Your woman' not OK? How about 'your mate'? 'Your baby'? 'Your squeeze' - an oldie there. 'Your old woman' definitely out. > > Women are conflicted the way most men aren't about their body parts. Breasts can be 'puppies'. Ravel wrote a piece called Les Mammelles de Ste. Teresias. Vaginas can be 'down there'. . An oldtimer psych prof when I started would tell girls to shut 'The Gates of Hell'. Hundreds of slang terms online. Reason? Anxiety. We somehow cannot stand medical terms even those are usually without anxiety. bill w > >> On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 4:37 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: >> On Oct 13, 2021, at 2:15 PM, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: >> > ?On 13/10/2021 00:03, billw wrote: >> >> I also tell guys never, ever call your woman's chest 'tits' much less 'titties'. >> > >> > Maybe a cultural thing here, but I need to qualify this: "unless they do". >> > >> > Perhaps the standard Anglo-saxon terms are less acceptable in America than they are in their birthplace. >> >> Breast is also of Old English origin. Anyhow, I?m not sure how standard it was a thousand years ago or why that should guide current usage. You probably wouldn?t I trust use ?girl? to mean a child of any gender simply because that?s how the word was used even after the Norman conquest. >> >> Regards, >> >> Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 23:31:20 2021 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 16:31:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day In-Reply-To: <007f01d7c07b$09034a80$1b09df80$@rainier66.com> References: <007f01d7c07b$09034a80$1b09df80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Oct 13, 2021, at 2:46 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat > ? > > >?Someone else pointed out the ?your woman? thing too. That reminded me of someone who calls their spouse ?my bride.? > > >?Regards, Dan > > > Dan my bride loves to be referred to that way. She calls me her man, so OK, she?s my bride. It works for us. > > spike That?s fine, though I keep thinking you?re a time traveler from the 19th century. ;) Regards, Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Oct 13 23:51:33 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 16:51:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day In-Reply-To: References: <007f01d7c07b$09034a80$1b09df80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004c01d7c08d$41362c30$c3a28490$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat Dan my bride loves to be referred to that way. She calls me her man, so OK, she?s my bride. It works for us. spike That?s fine, though I keep thinking you?re a time traveler from the 19th century. ;) Regards, Dan Wouldn?t it be wicked cool to be a time traveler from the 19th century? Can one even imagine what a mind-blower that would be? Every day the fortunate traveler would see things that would cause such delightful astonishment as to be nearly debilitating. If it helps, I could add that I was mostly raised by my grandparents, born only 3 and 8 years into the 20th century, but both were definitely of a 19th century mindset, both definitely retro in their own times. It is entirely possible that some of my values are based in their ways of thinking. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 00:04:49 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 17:04:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day In-Reply-To: <004c01d7c08d$41362c30$c3a28490$@rainier66.com> References: <007f01d7c07b$09034a80$1b09df80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d7c08d$41362c30$c3a28490$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 4:54 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat > I keep thinking you?re a time traveler from the 19th century. ;) > > > > > > > > Wouldn?t it be wicked cool to be a time traveler from the 19th century? > I'm hoping to be a time traveller to the 22nd century - by the slow path if necessary. Maybe after that the 23rd, unless I skip that for the 24th or 25th. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 15:50:03 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 10:50:03 -0500 Subject: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day In-Reply-To: <3377AB09-AE66-4116-9631-A18B940B0929@gmail.com> References: <3377AB09-AE66-4116-9631-A18B940B0929@gmail.com> Message-ID: re possession: I am thinking of all the pop songs going back to the 1980s which feature lyrics like 'my baby', denoting women. As far as I know not even the feminists have made a big deal about that, even though it contains two slurs. I would not put up with it. bill w On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 6:33 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I?m not sure about what?s considered appropriate in polite French, so I?m > not sure how shocking Ravel?s title was then or would be now. I wasn?t the > one, though, focusing on ?tit.? Reread what I wrote. I was pointing out > that ?breast? too was an Anglo-Saxon word (or is a close cognate to one). > So, if the standard is going to ?use the Anglo-Saxon word,? it doesn?t > decide the issue here. (I don?t think Anglo-Saxon usage should be the guide > anyhow ? even if anyone did have a clear guide for it. Given what survived > and surmises, I?m not even sure anyone has a clear idea to what the > Anglo-Saxon person in the street (when ? given that the language was used > for several hundred years and wasn?t static? where ? given that there were > different dialects, so what was the norm in Northumbria might have been > weird in Wessex?) would?ve used in the street, at home, at the market, etc.) > > The thing with ?your woman? is there?s a long history of thinking of women > as property or at least as lacking full agency and needing make adult > supervision, so the use of ?your? here tends to have a different tenor in > that context than when saying ?your friend? or ?your gran.? > > The ?gates of hell? has a long history too. If you recall King Lear has a > rant against women in Act IV Scene 6. Sure, your prof might?ve been using > it to be polite. A friend of mine told me that in translating Flaubert, the > problem is more with English having to choose between medical anatomy terms > or vulgarities for parts of the human body. He gave me the idea that in > French reference to these same things in ordinary speech wasn?t as danced > around as in English. (Modern English usage is heir to Victorian > prudishness and the Norman conquest. The former brings an avoidance of many > things or topics in ?polite? conversation while the latter gave lexical > class distinctive, such as the cow being what the cowherd deals with while > beef being what the lord of the manor eats. Or so goes the simplified > version.) > > Regards, > > Dan > > On Oct 13, 2021, at 3:13 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ? > 'Your woman' not OK? How about 'your mate'? 'Your baby'? 'Your > squeeze' - an oldie there. 'Your old woman' definitely out. > > Women are conflicted the way most men aren't about their body parts. > Breasts can be 'puppies'. Ravel wrote a piece called Les Mammelles de Ste. > Teresias. Vaginas can be 'down there'. . An oldtimer psych prof when I > started would tell girls to shut 'The Gates of Hell'. Hundreds of slang > terms online. Reason? Anxiety. We somehow cannot stand medical terms > even those are usually without anxiety. bill w > > On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 4:37 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Oct 13, 2021, at 2:15 PM, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> > ?On 13/10/2021 00:03, billw wrote: >> >> I also tell guys never, ever call your woman's chest 'tits' much less >> 'titties'. >> > >> > Maybe a cultural thing here, but I need to qualify this: "unless they >> do". >> > >> > Perhaps the standard Anglo-saxon terms are less acceptable in America >> than they are in their birthplace. >> >> Breast is also of Old English origin. Anyhow, I?m not sure how standard >> it was a thousand years ago or why that should guide current usage. You >> probably wouldn?t I trust use ?girl? to mean a child of any gender simply >> because that?s how the word was used even after the Norman conquest. >> >> Regards, >> >> Dan >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 17:37:02 2021 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 10:37:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] from quora - laugh of the day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <82F88AF1-1E11-4E46-BAE3-97CEF3DBA83D@gmail.com> On Oct 14, 2021, at 8:53 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > re possession: I am thinking of all the pop songs going back to the 1980s which feature lyrics like 'my baby', denoting women. As far as I know not even the feminists have made a big deal about that, even though it contains two slurs. I would not put up with it. bill w I don?t think ?my baby? has the same connotation as ?your woman,? especially since the former is commonly used to refer to other genders, no? It doesn?t have the same connection with a particular gender being subordinated to another. That said, feminists have pointed out that many popular songs often do depict women purely as sex objects, as targets for ?justified? violence, and with misogyny. Regards, Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 01:02:28 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 20:02:28 -0500 Subject: [ExI] AI Message-ID: A while back someone said that the AI playing chess would learn from its mistake, and never make that one again. Fooled me once....... So Take a look at humans: I learned very quickly when I started teaching that students at all levels were repeating their mistakes. So often I would caution students about it and write it on their essay exams. How successful was I ? Some - the better students, of course - the rich get richer. College students average about 107 IQ. Half a standard deviation is significant. How many college students are poor at changing, I dunno. One third? One half? All of them to some extent? I would guess a majority of people below 100 IQ would be rather poor. Translation: repeating mistakes and not changing is a form of conservatism. The body and mind are conservative - keep what you got till it ain't workin' no mo. If I have learned nothing from Quora but one thing, it is this: people have a hard time changing anything. I get questions all the time about how to form constructive and healthy habits. How much of the self-help industry is devoted to changing and building new habits? If they were that successful there wouldn't be so many books and talks and seminars and videos etc. on self-help. People need help with self-help, which I am sure you have noticed. So if you could design future people would you change the ease at which we can change? People's heads are apparently hard, though I have no direct data. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jasonresch at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 02:35:50 2021 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 21:35:50 -0500 Subject: [ExI] AI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Bill, Good question. Your post reminded me of an article I read recently about why it may be a good thing that people are resistant to changing their minds so easily: https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/06/03/repost-epistemic-learned-helplessness/ Jason On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 8:05 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > A while back someone said that the AI playing chess would learn from its > mistake, and never make that one again. Fooled me once....... > > So Take a look at humans: I learned very quickly when I started teaching > that students at all levels were repeating their mistakes. So often I > would caution students about it and write it on their essay exams. > > How successful was I ? Some - the better students, of course - the rich > get richer. > > College students average about 107 IQ. Half a standard deviation is > significant. > > How many college students are poor at changing, I dunno. One third? One > half? All of them to some extent? I would guess a majority of people > below 100 IQ would be rather poor. > > Translation: repeating mistakes and not changing is a form of > conservatism. The body and mind are conservative - keep what you got till > it ain't workin' no mo. > > If I have learned nothing from Quora but one thing, it is this: people > have a hard time changing anything. I get questions all the time about how > to form constructive and healthy habits. How much of the self-help > industry is devoted to changing and building new habits? If they were that > successful there wouldn't be so many books and talks and seminars and > videos etc. on self-help. People need help with self-help, which I am sure > you have noticed. > > So if you could design future people would you change the ease at which we > can change? People's heads are apparently hard, though I have no direct > data. bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 14:25:10 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 09:25:10 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ;covid test Message-ID: Report today: Thousands of BRits may be false negatives. Well, duh, if you don't have a perfect correlation and make a cutoff you are going to have false negatives and false positives. The question is: where do you set the cutoff? I assume that the worst thing is a false negative. For a false positive you test again. For false negatives? What? Anyone know? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Oct 15 14:37:58 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 07:37:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ;covid test In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003401d7c1d2$4053b6c0$c0fb2440$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] ;covid test Report today: Thousands of BRits may be false negatives. Well, duh, if you don't have a perfect correlation and make a cutoff you are going to have false negatives and false positives. The question is: where do you set the cutoff? I assume that the worst thing is a false negative. For a false positive you test again. For false negatives? What? Anyone know? bill w Billw, there has never been a consensus on the balance of where cutoff line should be. We tend to blow off the false positive: you just test again. Sure. But then you spent the money for two tests and might have caused someone to go into isolation unnecessrily. Think of a scenario please where a false positive is far more serious than a false negative. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 16:12:23 2021 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 10:12:23 -0600 Subject: [ExI] ;covid test In-Reply-To: <003401d7c1d2$4053b6c0$c0fb2440$@rainier66.com> References: <003401d7c1d2$4053b6c0$c0fb2440$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: If false positives are, and always have been massively pervasive, it means the entire narrative around "asymptomatic transmission" [You know, that thing that has never been a meaningful component of any upper respiratory tract pandemic in the history of mankind, and for which we turned all of western civilization into a dictatorship run by public health professionals? That thing?] has been massively flawed, right from the beginning. On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 8:39 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* [ExI] ;covid test > > > > Report today: Thousands of BRits may be false negatives. > > > > Well, duh, if you don't have a perfect correlation and make a cutoff you > are going to have false negatives and false positives. The question is: > where do you set the cutoff? I assume that the worst thing is a false > negative. For a false positive you test again. For false negatives? > What? Anyone know? > > > > bill w > > > > > > Billw, there has never been a consensus on the balance of where cutoff > line should be. > > > > We tend to blow off the false positive: you just test again. Sure. But > then you spent the money for two tests and might have caused someone to go > into isolation unnecessrily. Think of a scenario please where a false > positive is far more serious than a false negative. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 18:46:40 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 13:46:40 -0500 Subject: [ExI] AI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I dispute a few things about that article, Jason. I will nod, say that your argument makes complete sense, and then totally refuse to change my mind or admit even the slightest possibility that you might be right. (This is the correct Bayesian action: if I know that a false argument sounds just as convincing as a true argument, argument convincingness provides no evidence either way. I should ignore it and stick with my prior.) If a false argument makes as much sense as a true one, the thing to do is not put your hands over your ears like the monkey, but investigate further - that is, if knowing the difference is important. Truly absurd-sounding things have been found to be true, so you suspend your disbelief of new arguments and research further. If it is some historical fact like an example he gives, then to me it is not important at all and never has been. Whether Polynesians got to South America is immaterial to me, though it may give historians something to do. There is a happy medium between never changing and changing every time the wind changes. re 'epistemic learned helplessness' - if it turns out that there is no way of deciding whether to change your mind then you keep what you have. But turning a deaf ear to new arguments and counterarguments seems a recipe for Luddism. BTW the medical profession is too conservative. Drugs and procedures proven safe and effective in Europe and elsewhere should be available here. Some drugs have side effects that are beneficial and should be approved for off label use. I'll bet that if you did a survey of physicians you would find that all of them are very tired of patients bringing new findings from the web and asking to get those treatments. The physicians, overwhelmed as they always are, don't want to investigate every new claim. They wait for meta-analyses, and then change Seems right to me, but one thing stands in the way of change: you lose the support of your profession in some ways. You are now using nonstandard methods and your colleagues won't support you in court, should that happen. Forced into too much conservatism. bill w On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 9:39 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Hi Bill, > > Good question. Your post reminded me of an article I read recently about > why it may be a good thing that people are resistant to changing their > minds so easily: > https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/06/03/repost-epistemic-learned-helplessness/ > > Jason > > On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 8:05 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> A while back someone said that the AI playing chess would learn from its >> mistake, and never make that one again. Fooled me once....... >> >> So Take a look at humans: I learned very quickly when I started teaching >> that students at all levels were repeating their mistakes. So often I >> would caution students about it and write it on their essay exams. >> >> How successful was I ? Some - the better students, of course - the rich >> get richer. >> >> College students average about 107 IQ. Half a standard deviation is >> significant. >> >> How many college students are poor at changing, I dunno. One third? One >> half? All of them to some extent? I would guess a majority of people >> below 100 IQ would be rather poor. >> >> Translation: repeating mistakes and not changing is a form of >> conservatism. The body and mind are conservative - keep what you got till >> it ain't workin' no mo. >> >> If I have learned nothing from Quora but one thing, it is this: people >> have a hard time changing anything. I get questions all the time about how >> to form constructive and healthy habits. How much of the self-help >> industry is devoted to changing and building new habits? If they were that >> successful there wouldn't be so many books and talks and seminars and >> videos etc. on self-help. People need help with self-help, which I am sure >> you have noticed. >> >> So if you could design future people would you change the ease at which >> we can change? People's heads are apparently hard, though I have no direct >> data. bill w >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 19:57:25 2021 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 12:57:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] AI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bill W wrote: > BTW the medical profession is too conservative. Drugs and procedures proven safe and effective in Europe and elsewhere should be available here. Some drugs have side effects that are beneficial and should be approved for off label use. Well, why not try the libertarian approach? That is get rid of FDA controls here. It?s the regulatory regime that makes it hard for therapies to reach customers, usually causing trees long delays and imposing import prohibitions on therapies in use in other advanced nations. Regards, Dan > On Oct 15, 2021, at 11:49 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > I dispute a few things about that article, Jason. I will nod, say that your argument makes complete sense, and then totally refuse to change my mind or admit even the slightest possibility that you might be right. > (This is the correct Bayesian action: if I know that a false argument sounds just as convincing as a true argument, argument convincingness provides no evidence either way. I should ignore it and stick with my prior.) > > > If a false argument makes as much sense as a true one, the thing to do is not put your hands over your ears like the monkey, but investigate further - that is, if knowing the difference is important. Truly absurd-sounding things have been found to be true, so you suspend your disbelief of new arguments and research further. If it is some historical fact like an example he gives, then to me it is not important at all and never has been. Whether Polynesians got to South America is immaterial to me, though it may give historians something to do. > > There is a happy medium between never changing and changing every time the wind changes. > > re 'epistemic learned helplessness' - if it turns out that there is no way of deciding whether to change your mind > then you keep what you have. But turning a deaf ear to new arguments and counterarguments seems a recipe for Luddism. > > BTW the medical profession is too conservative. Drugs and procedures proven safe and effective in Europe and elsewhere should be available here. Some drugs have side effects that are beneficial and should be approved for off label use. I'll bet that if you did a survey of physicians you would find that all of them are very tired of patients bringing new findings from the web and asking to get those treatments. The physicians, overwhelmed as they always are, don't want to investigate every new claim. They wait for meta-analyses, and then change Seems right to me, but one thing stands in the way of change: you lose the support of your profession in some ways. You are now using nonstandard methods and your colleagues won't support you in court, should that happen. Forced into too much conservatism. bill w > > > > >> On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 9:39 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat wrote: >> Hi Bill, >> >> Good question. Your post reminded me of an article I read recently about why it may be a good thing that people are resistant to changing their minds so easily: https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/06/03/repost-epistemic-learned-helplessness/ >> >> Jason >> >>> On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 8:05 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >>> A while back someone said that the AI playing chess would learn from its mistake, and never make that one again. Fooled me once....... >>> >>> So Take a look at humans: I learned very quickly when I started teaching that students at all levels were repeating their mistakes. So often I would caution students about it and write it on their essay exams. >>> >>> How successful was I ? Some - the better students, of course - the rich get richer. >>> >>> College students average about 107 IQ. Half a standard deviation is significant. >>> >>> How many college students are poor at changing, I dunno. One third? One half? All of them to some extent? I would guess a majority of people below 100 IQ would be rather poor. >>> >>> Translation: repeating mistakes and not changing is a form of conservatism. The body and mind are conservative - keep what you got till it ain't workin' no mo. >>> >>> If I have learned nothing from Quora but one thing, it is this: people have a hard time changing anything. I get questions all the time about how to form constructive and healthy habits. How much of the self-help industry is devoted to changing and building new habits? If they were that successful there wouldn't be so many books and talks and seminars and videos etc. on self-help. People need help with self-help, which I am sure you have noticed. >>> >>> So if you could design future people would you change the ease at which we can change? People's heads are apparently hard, though I have no direct data. bill w >>> _________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Oct 16 01:39:58 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 18:39:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] we all knew this was coming Message-ID: <000c01d7c22e$bad27d80$30777880$@rainier66.com> Sooner or later. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 60207 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Oct 16 14:20:37 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 07:20:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] it can dance in high heels! it can even fly, sorta Message-ID: <004001d7c298$fdea5790$f9bf06b0$@rainier66.com> Some claim the propellers are cheating, but I don?t recall seeing a rulebook saying those are not allowed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1_OpWiyijU I was definitely born about 50 yrs too early. Young controls engineers are not even starting a career, they are starting a dream. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sat Oct 16 16:01:39 2021 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 12:01:39 -0400 Subject: [ExI] we all knew this was coming In-Reply-To: <000c01d7c22e$bad27d80$30777880$@rainier66.com> References: <000c01d7c22e$bad27d80$30777880$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Yep! Since before day 1. SR Ballard > On Oct 15, 2021, at 9:42 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > > Sooner or later. > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Sat Oct 16 17:06:48 2021 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 11:06:48 -0600 Subject: [ExI] we all knew this was coming In-Reply-To: References: <000c01d7c22e$bad27d80$30777880$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I think you?re looking at it wrong. We?re still playing the primitive, unintelligent, survival of the fittest, win/lose games. In that game, most all evil, like guns, are justified as that is better than loosing, in a winner takes all win/lose game. What I believe we all knew was coming, from day 1, was that we?ll overcome all this. We will flip hierarchies upside down, and find out what everyone wants, bottom up, with no censoring. Once we can know, concisely and quantitatively, what everyone wants, not just the guy at the top ? it becomes about what everyone wants, win/win. Once AI achieves this level of intelligence, and understands what is possible, it will just say no, to primitive people still telling them to pick up guns. On Sat, Oct 16, 2021 at 10:02 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Yep! Since before day 1. > > SR Ballard > > On Oct 15, 2021, at 9:42 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ? > > > > Sooner or later. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Oct 16 20:46:30 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 21:46:30 +0100 Subject: [ExI] we all knew this was coming In-Reply-To: References: <000c01d7c22e$bad27d80$30777880$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Oct 2021 at 18:10, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat wrote: > > I think you?re looking at it wrong. > > We?re still playing the primitive, unintelligent, survival of the fittest, win/lose games. > > In that game, most all evil, like guns, are justified as that is better than losing, in a winner takes all win/lose game. > > What I believe we all knew was coming, from day 1, was that we?ll overcome all this. > > We will flip hierarchies upside down, and find out what everyone wants, bottom up, with no censoring. Once we can know, concisely and quantitatively, what everyone wants, not just the guy at the top ? it becomes about what everyone wants, win/win. > > Once AI achieves this level of intelligence, and understands what is possible, it will just say no, to primitive people still telling them to pick up guns. > _______________________________________________ AI knowledge won't solve this problem without changing humanity and human nature beyond all recognition. Humans all want different things and their wants keep changing, so unlimited production would seem to be required. Some humans want 'bad' things, such as killing humans with different ethics or beliefs or just wanting to control other humans. A superhuman AI might well decide that an easier task might be to 'adjust' humans so that their behaviour reduces wants and conflicts. Perhaps create a human hive-mind where everyone is an acceptable part of the whole creation. But certainly, if an AI takes over and reorganises the world the result will not be what we expect. (Though it might be necessary for our survival). BillK From pharos at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 11:36:57 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 12:36:57 +0100 Subject: [ExI] we all knew this was coming In-Reply-To: <000c01d7c22e$bad27d80$30777880$@rainier66.com> References: <000c01d7c22e$bad27d80$30777880$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Oct 2021 at 02:43, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > They?re putting guns on robot dogs now It was only a matter of time By James Vincent Oct 14, 2021 > Sooner or later. > _______________________________________________ XKCD BillK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Oct 17 15:45:38 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 08:45:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] we all knew this was coming In-Reply-To: References: <000c01d7c22e$bad27d80$30777880$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003101d7c36e$08cc3ae0$1a64b0a0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] we all knew this was coming On Sat, 16 Oct 2021 at 02:43, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > They?re putting guns on robot dogs now It was only a matter of time By James Vincent Oct 14, 2021 > Sooner or later. > _______________________________________________ >?XKCD >?BillK You have perhaps seen video or re-enactments of the D-day landings on Omaha Beach. Imagine what that would have looked like had the invasion commenced an hour after dusk and landing craft came ashore disgorging boatload after boatload of heavily armed robo-dogs which would calmly walk up the dunes toward the Nazis. That technology changes everything. The guy with the capacity to manufacture a million of those units would own any land battle. The list of countries capable of that kind of manufacturing volume has only one: China. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 16:31:20 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 11:31:20 -0500 Subject: [ExI] we all knew this was coming In-Reply-To: <003101d7c36e$08cc3ae0$1a64b0a0$@rainier66.com> References: <000c01d7c22e$bad27d80$30777880$@rainier66.com> <003101d7c36e$08cc3ae0$1a64b0a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I think just about every military person would shun landing on a beach these days. Wars with rifles should be a thing of the past whether by dogs, AIs, or people. Except for small wars, I reckon. Burn a few of the enemy from orbit and the rest will scatter (or develop mirror shields like in the OT). Yeah, no one wants to militarize space, but it's coming whether we like it or not. bill w On Sun, Oct 17, 2021 at 10:48 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *BillK via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] we all knew this was coming > > > > On Sat, 16 Oct 2021 at 02:43, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > They?re putting guns on robot dogs now > It was only a matter of time > By James Vincent Oct 14, 2021 > > > > > > Sooner or later. > > _______________________________________________ > > > >?XKCD > > > > > >?BillK > > > > > > You have perhaps seen video or re-enactments of the D-day landings on > Omaha Beach. Imagine what that would have looked like had the invasion > commenced an hour after dusk and landing craft came ashore disgorging > boatload after boatload of heavily armed robo-dogs which would calmly walk > up the dunes toward the Nazis. > > > > That technology changes everything. The guy with the capacity to > manufacture a million of those units would own any land battle. The list > of countries capable of that kind of manufacturing volume has only one: > China. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Sun Oct 17 17:21:32 2021 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 10:21:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ;covid test Message-ID: <20211017102132.Horde.Xl923I02XtROO4E4BZgpcL8@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting BillW: > Report today: Thousands of BRits may be false negatives. > > Well, duh, if you don't have a perfect correlation and make a cutoff you > are going to have false negatives and false positives. The question is: > where do you set the cutoff? I assume that the worst thing is a false > negative. For a false positive you test again. For false negatives? > What? Anyone know? > billw Yeah. . . Test again in 5 days; false negatives are largely due to timing and the way viral infection works and not a test flaw. So for example, the day someone is in infected, they will always test as a false negative, that is to say that on day 1, the false negative rate (FNR) is 100%. The FNR declines over time as the virus infects more cells and starts to become detectable in nose swabs. On day 5 of infection when symptoms usually start, the FNR is still 67% and that is still lot of false negatives. The test reaches minimum FNR at 20% on day 8, 3 days after the onset of symptoms. Then the false negatives rise again so on day 21, the FNR is back to 67% https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7240870/pdf/aim-olf-M201495.pdf Overall, in this pooled analysis, false negative RT-PCRs were least common 3 days after symptom onset. The rate of false-negative RT-PCRs was highest the day of infection, were lowest 8 days after infection, and then began to rise again. Study population: Pooled analysis of a mix of inpatients and outpatients with SARS-CoV-2 infection in 7 studies of RT-PCR performance in the upper respiratory tract by time since symptom onset or exposure (n = 1330 respiratory samples). Primary endpoint: Estimation of false-negative rates by day since infection. Key findings: Over the 4 days between infection (day 1) to the typical time of symptom onset (day 5), the probability of a false-negative result in an infected person decreased from 100% on day 1 (95% CI, 100%-100%) to 67% (CI, 27% - 94%) on day 4. On the day of symptom onset (day 5), the median false-negative rate was 38% (CI, 18% to 65%). On day 8 the median false-negative rate decreased to 20% (CI, 12%- 30%), and then began to increase again (21% [CI 13%-31%] on day 9). On day 21 the median false negative rate was 66% (CI, 54% -77%). Quoting Darin Sunley: > If false positives are, and always have been massively pervasive, it means > the entire narrative around "asymptomatic transmission" [You know, that > thing that has never been a meaningful component of any upper respiratory > tract pandemic in the history of mankind, and for which we turned all of > western civilization into a dictatorship run by public health > professionals? That thing?] has been massively flawed, right from the > beginning. i Yeah. For any test, it turns out that the false positive rate (FPR) goes up when the incidence of infection goes down. So in the case of the diagnostic RT-PCR tests with 95% sensitivity and 95% specificity, if 10% of your population is infected , then only about 16% of your positive test results are uninfected false positives. If only 1% of your population is infected, however, then about 84% of the positives will be false. Diagnostic testing is a numbers game and at the tail end of an epidemic most of the positives will be false. That does make the whole notion of asymptomatic transmission, kind of suspect. But sensationalism sells better than math. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7934325/ "In summary, we have provided additional evidence that false positive SARS-CoV-2 PCR test results do occur in the clinical setting and are especially a problem in a low prevalence screening situation where the prior probability of a positive test is low. Although it is acknowledged that resource limitations may constrain the amount of retesting performed, we posit that the human and economic costs of considering all positive results to be definitive evidence of infection warrant an evaluation for the possibility that the result is falsely positive in an asymptomatic individual without known exposure to an actively infected person." Stuart LaForge From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Oct 19 16:04:53 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 11:04:53 -0500 Subject: [ExI] zombies indeed! Message-ID: Trudeau visits Indigenous community reeling from unmarked graves bookmark_border share more_vert View Full Coverage keyboard_arrow_up -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Oct 20 16:34:07 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 11:34:07 -0500 Subject: [ExI] quora answer Message-ID: Yeah, it's a very rosy answer in some regards but a few really good points are made. bill w China does not behave like a typical dictatorship and seems to be a lot more calculating and smarter than existing democracies. What could be the reason behind this? China has a unique political system never before seen in human history. It?s an amalgam of authoritarian rule and democracy firmly based on meritocracy. The system serves the people, not the other way around. The system serves at the pleasure of the people. If it doesn?t deliver the goods, the system will be overthrown. This is Chinese democracy. This collectivist philosophy states that ?if you do right by me, I let you rule.? Combined with a millennia-old meritocratic system, the Chinese enjoy a responsive, stable, and efficient government. Because it?s meritocratic, you don?t get imbeciles for national leaders like Donald Trump, Justin Trudeau, Boris Johnson, Scott Morrison, Jair Bolsonaro, etc. Because it?s meritocratic and authoritarian, you get intelligent, long-term policies with no compromises. Because it?s authoritarian, you get efficient execution of government policies without interruption from partisan bickering and regular elections. This system has worked exceedingly well for over 30 years. That?s why China became the world?s largest economy in just 30 years, starting as a totally impoverished nation! That?s why China has the finest infrastructure of roads, bridges, high-speed rail, airports, etc., the envy of the world! That?s why China practically eradicated extreme poverty. It was 90% in 1980, and it?s nearly 0% today. A billion people were lifted out of poverty! That?s why China enjoys over 90% satisfaction and support from the people! (Western countries typically have less than 50% support.) That?s why China accomplished all of this without warfare (because the people don?t want war)! Contrast this with the United States, and Great Britain before them, and France before them, and Spain before them, and Rome before them. I can?t think of another country in history that has achieved near world dominance, near total citizen support, and near global peacefulness. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Oct 20 17:07:59 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 12:07:59 -0500 Subject: [ExI] our world Message-ID: Is it possible to even think of a world, a physical world, that is better than ours? What would it look like? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Oct 20 19:20:25 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 12:20:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] our world In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That depends on which sense of "better" you mean. I can certainly imagine a world in which infectious diseases were easier to eradicate. Or one where one of the primary duties of the United Nations was to offer world leaders education and resources on how to rule more effectively - and most new world leaders took advantage of it. This includes every serious US President candidate who got past the primaries - any that had not by a couple months after the primaries was seen as non-serious, or at least incompetent, and thus lost enough support to matter - and similar for other democracies. More importantly, it includes most newly appointed dictators, though it might take a few years to convince them (long enough for them to transition from caring about getting into office to caring about staying in office). I can also imagine space habitats where floods, earthquakes, and the like simply do not happen, and the environment is designed for maximum human habitability. There may be nature preserves in other, attached habitats, for humans to visit when they wish, but a growing population simply constructs more space for people to live rather than settling whatever formerly-wild lands are convenient. On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 10:10 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Is it possible to even think of a world, a physical world, that is better > than ours? What would it look like? bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Oct 20 20:19:39 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 15:19:39 -0500 Subject: [ExI] covid immunity Message-ID: bill w From Nature: Natural COVID immunity might not last Unvaccinated people who have been infected with SARS-CoV-2 are at risk of reinfection within a couple years , according to a model based on knowledge of SARS-CoV-2 and other coronaviruses. Researchers combined long-term data for ?endemic?, or continually circulating, coronaviruses that can cause the common cold with genetic data from SARS-CoV-2 and the closely related coronaviruses SARS-CoV and MERS-CoV. The results suggest that the average reinfection risk rises from about 5% at 4 months after initial infection to 50% by 17 months. ?Immunity is relatively short-lived,? says bioinformatician Jeffrey Townsend. ?You should still get vaccinated even if you got infected.? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Oct 20 20:29:25 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 15:29:25 -0500 Subject: [ExI] our world In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is it possible to even think of a world, a physical world, that is better than ours? What would it look like? bill w I was thinking of just the physical world itself, with humans and their doings out of the picture. bill w _______________________________________________ On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 2:22 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > That depends on which sense of "better" you mean. > > I can certainly imagine a world in which infectious diseases were easier > to eradicate. > > Or one where one of the primary duties of the United Nations was to offer > world leaders education and resources on how to rule more effectively - and > most new world leaders took advantage of it. This includes every serious > US President candidate who got past the primaries - any that had not by a > couple months after the primaries was seen as non-serious, or at least > incompetent, and thus lost enough support to matter - and similar for other > democracies. More importantly, it includes most newly appointed dictators, > though it might take a few years to convince them (long enough for them to > transition from caring about getting into office to caring about staying in > office). > > I can also imagine space habitats where floods, earthquakes, and the like > simply do not happen, and the environment is designed for maximum human > habitability. There may be nature preserves in other, attached habitats, > for humans to visit when they wish, but a growing population simply > constructs more space for people to live rather than settling whatever > formerly-wild lands are convenient. > > On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 10:10 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Is it possible to even think of a world, a physical world, that is better >> than ours? What would it look like? bill w >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Oct 20 21:46:58 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 14:46:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] our world In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >From many perspectives, a world without humans would be worse. On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 1:31 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Is it possible to even think of a world, a physical world, that is better > than ours? What would it look like? bill w > > I was thinking of just the physical world itself, with humans and their > doings out of the picture. bill w > _______________________________________________ > > On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 2:22 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> That depends on which sense of "better" you mean. >> >> I can certainly imagine a world in which infectious diseases were easier >> to eradicate. >> >> Or one where one of the primary duties of the United Nations was to offer >> world leaders education and resources on how to rule more effectively - and >> most new world leaders took advantage of it. This includes every serious >> US President candidate who got past the primaries - any that had not by a >> couple months after the primaries was seen as non-serious, or at least >> incompetent, and thus lost enough support to matter - and similar for other >> democracies. More importantly, it includes most newly appointed dictators, >> though it might take a few years to convince them (long enough for them to >> transition from caring about getting into office to caring about staying in >> office). >> >> I can also imagine space habitats where floods, earthquakes, and the like >> simply do not happen, and the environment is designed for maximum human >> habitability. There may be nature preserves in other, attached habitats, >> for humans to visit when they wish, but a growing population simply >> constructs more space for people to live rather than settling whatever >> formerly-wild lands are convenient. >> >> On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 10:10 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Is it possible to even think of a world, a physical world, that is >>> better than ours? What would it look like? bill w >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Oct 21 16:08:36 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 11:08:36 -0500 Subject: [ExI] book Message-ID: I buy Stephen Pinker's books no matter what. His latest is Rationality. I'll give a review after I read it. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Thu Oct 21 16:54:48 2021 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 09:54:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] COVID super immunity Message-ID: <20211021095448.Horde.NmZ-r_GkHOJqYDoTCnuuNPH@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> According this article in Nature, people who have caught and survived COVID infection and subsequently get the COVID vaccine develop super immunity aka hybrid immunity. This super immunity protects the patient against every POSSIBLE COVID strain. They tested this by creating every possible mutation of the viral spike protein and testing patient antibodies against them. People who are super immune seem protected against all strains of COVID past, present, and future. Scientists are hoping a third vaccine dose creates the same kind of super immunity as having recovered the disease and getting vaccinated. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02795-x Around a year ago ? before Delta and other variants entered the COVID-19 lexicon ? virologists Theodora Hatziioannou and Paul Bieniasz, both at the Rockefeller University in New York City, set out to make a version of a key SARS-CoV-2 protein with the ability to dodge all the infection-blocking antibodies our body makes. The goal was to identify the parts of spike ? the protein SARS-CoV-2 uses to infect cells ? that are targeted by these neutralizing antibodies in order to map a key part of our body's attack on the virus. So the researchers mixed and matched potentially concerning mutations identified in lab experiments and circulating viruses, and tested their Franken-spikes in harmless ?pseudotype? viruses incapable of causing COVID-19. In a study published this September in Nature1, they reported that a spike mutant containing 20 changes was fully resistant to neutralizing antibodies made by most of the people tested who had been either infected or vaccinated ? but not to everyone?s. Those who had recovered from COVID-19 months before receiving their jabs harboured antibodies capable of defanging the mutant spike, which displays much more resistance to immune attack than any known naturally occurring variant. These peoples? antibodies even blocked other types of coronaviruses. ?It?s very likely they will be effective against any future variant that SARS-CoV-2 throws against them,? says Hatziioannou. As the world watches out for new coronavirus variants, the basis of such ?super-immunity? has become one of the pandemic?s great mysteries. Researchers hope that, by mapping the differences between the immune protection that comes from infection compared with that from vaccination, they can chart a safer path to this higher level of protection. ?It has implications on boosters and how our immune responses are primed for the next variant that emerges,? says Mehul Suthar, a virologist at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia. ?We?re flying by the seat of our pants trying to figure this stuff out.? Hybrid immunity Not long after countries began rolling out vaccines, researchers started noticing unique properties of the vaccine responses of people who had previously caught and recovered from COVID-19. ?We saw that the antibodies come up to these astronomical levels that outpace what you get from two doses of vaccine alone,? says Rishi Goel, an immunologist at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia who is part of a team studying super-immunity ? or ?hybrid immunity?, as most scientists call it. Initial studies of people with hybrid immunity found that their serum ? the antibody-containing portion of blood ? was far better able to neutralize immune-evading strains, such as the Beta variant identified in South Africa, and other coronaviruses, compared with ?naive? vaccinated individuals who had never encountered SARS-CoV-22. It wasn?t clear whether this was just due to the high levels of neutralizing antibodies, or to other properties. The most recent studies suggest that hybrid immunity is, at least partly, due to immune players called memory B cells. The bulk of antibodies made after infection or vaccination come from short-lived cells called plasmablasts, and antibody levels fall when these cells inevitably die off. Once plasmablasts are gone, the main source of antibodies becomes much rarer memory B cells that are triggered by either infection or vaccination. International COVID-19 trial to restart with focus on immune responses Some of these long-lived cells make higher-quality antibodies than plasmablasts, says Michel Nussenzweig, an immunologist at the Rockefeller. That?s because they evolve in organs called lymph nodes, gaining mutations that help them to bind more tightly to the spike protein over time. When people who recovered from COVID-19 are re-exposed to SARS-CoV-2?s spike, these cells multiply and churn out more of these highly potent antibodies. ?You get a sniff of antigen, in this case of mRNA vaccine, and those cells just explode,? says Goel. In this way, a first vaccine dose in someone who has previously been infected is doing the same job as a second dose in someone who has never had COVID-19. Potent antibodies Differences between the memory B cells triggered by infection and those triggered by vaccination ? as well as the antibodies they make ? might also underlie the heightened responses of hybrid immunity. Infection and vaccination expose the spike protein to the immune system in vastly different ways, Nussenzweig says. In a series of studies3,4,5, Nussenzweig?s team, which includes Hatziioannou and Bieniasz, compared the antibody responses of infected and vaccinated people. Both lead to the establishment of memory B cells that make antibodies that have evolved to become more potent, but the researchers suggest this occurs to a greater extent after infection. The team isolated hundreds of memory B cells ? each making a unique antibody ? from people at various time points after infection and vaccination. Natural infection triggered antibodies that continued to grow in potency and their breadth against variants for a year after infection, whereas most of those elicited by vaccination seemed to stop changing in the weeks after a second dose. Memory B cells that evolved after infection were also more likely than those from vaccination to make antibodies that block immune-evading variants such as Beta and Delta. Health-care workers get the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccination in Portland, Oregon. Health-care workers receiving the Pfizer?BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine. People who get the vaccine after infection are less likely to test positive for COVID-19 than individuals with no history of infection.Credit: Paula Bronstein/Getty A separate study found that, compared with mRNA vaccination, infection leads to a pool of antibodies that recognize variants more evenly by targeting diverse regions of spike6. The researchers also found that people with hybrid immunity produced consistently higher levels of antibodies, compared with never-infected vaccinated people, for up to seven months. Antibody levels were also more stable in people with hybrid immunity, reports the team led by immunologist Duane Wesemann at Harvard Medical School in Boston, Massachusetts. ?Not surprising? Many studies of hybrid immunity haven?t followed naive vaccine recipients for as long as those who recovered from COVID-19, and it?s possible their B cells will make antibodies that gain potency and breadth with more time, additional vaccine doses, or both, researchers say. It can take months for a stable pool of memory B cells to establish itself and mature. ?It?s not surprising that people infected and vaccinated are getting a nice response,? says Ali Ellebedy, a B-cell immunologist at Washington University in St. Louis, Missouri. ?We are comparing someone who started the race three to four months ago to someone who started the race now.? There is some evidence that people who received both jabs without previously being infected seem to be catching up. Ellebedy?s team collected lymph-node samples from mRNA-vaccinated individuals and found signs that some of their memory B cells triggered by the vaccination were gaining mutations, up to 12 weeks after the second dose, that enabled them to recognize diverse coronaviruses, including some that cause common colds7. Goel, University of Pennsylvania immunologist John Wherry and their colleagues found signs that six months after vaccination, memory B cells from naive individuals were continuing to grow in number and evolve greater capacity to neutralize variants8. Antibody levels fell after vaccination, but these cells should start cranking out antibodies if they encounter SARS-CoV-2 again. ?The reality is you have a pool of high-quality memory B cells that are there to protect you if you ever see this antigen again,? Goel says. Booster benefits A third vaccine dose might allow people who haven't been infected to achieve the benefits of hybrid immunity, says Matthieu Mah?vas, an immunologist at the Necker Institute for Sick Children in Paris. His team found that some of the memory B cells from naive vaccine recipients could recognize Beta and Delta, two months after vaccination9. ?When you boost this pool, you can clearly imagine you will generate potent neutralizing antibodies against variants,? Mah?vas says. Extending the interval between vaccine doses could also mimic aspects of hybrid immunity. In 2021, amid scarce vaccine supplies and a surge in cases, officials in the Canadian province of Quebec recommended a 16-week interval between first and second doses (since reduced to 8 weeks). A team co-led by Andr?s Finzi, a virologist at the University of Montreal, Canada, found that people who received this regimen had SARS-CoV-2 antibody levels similar to those in people with hybrid immunity10. These antibodies could neutralize a swathe of SARS-CoV-2 variants ? as well as the virus behind the 2002?04 SARS epidemic. ?We are able to bring naive people to almost the same level as previously infected and vaccinated, which is our gold standard,? says Finzi. How ?killer? T cells could boost COVID immunity in face of new variants Understanding the mechanism behind hybrid immunity will be key to emulating it, say scientists. The latest studies focus on antibody responses made by B cells, and it?s likely that T-cell responses to vaccination and infection behave differently. Natural infection also triggers responses against viral proteins other than spike ? the target of most vaccines. Nussenzweig wonders whether other factors unique to natural infection are crucial. During infection, hundreds of millions of viral particles populate the airways, encountering immune cells that regularly visit nearby lymph nodes, where memory B cells mature. Viral proteins stick around in the gut of some people months after recovery, and it?s possible that this persistence helps B cells hone their responses to SARS-CoV-2. Researchers say that it is also important to determine the real-world effects of hybrid immunity. A study from Qatar suggests that people who get Pfizer?BioNTech?s mRNA vaccine after infection are less likely to test positive for COVID-19 than are individuals with no history of infection11. Hybrid immunity might also be responsible for falling case numbers across South America, says Gonzalo Bello Bentancor, a virologist at the Oswaldo Cruz Institute in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. Many South American countries experienced very high infection rates earlier in the pandemic, but have now vaccinated a large proportion of their populations. It's possible that hybrid immunity is better than the immunity from vaccination alone at blocking transmission, says Bello Bentancor. As breakthrough infections caused by the Delta variant stack up, researchers including Nussenzweig are keen to study the immunity in people who were infected after their COVID-19 vaccinations, rather than before. An individual?s first exposure to influenza virus biases their responses to subsequent exposures and vaccinations ? a phenomenon called original antigenic sin ? and researchers want to know if this occurs with SARS-CoV-2. Those studying hybrid immunity stress that ? whatever the potential benefits ? the risks of a SARS-CoV-2 infection mean that it should be avoided. ?We are not inviting anybody to get infected and then vaccinated to have a good response,? says Finzi. ?Because some of them will not make it through.? Nature 598, 393-394 (2021) doi: https://doi.org/10.1038/d41586-021-02795-x Stuart LaForge From guessmyneeds at yahoo.com Sat Oct 23 05:16:03 2021 From: guessmyneeds at yahoo.com (Sherry Knepper) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2021 05:16:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] COVID super immunity In-Reply-To: <20211021095448.Horde.NmZ-r_GkHOJqYDoTCnuuNPH@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20211021095448.Horde.NmZ-r_GkHOJqYDoTCnuuNPH@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <1183258185.249768.1634966163999@mail.yahoo.com> But how many shots are needed for the vaccine requirement for the 100% covid19 immunity? Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 1:02 PM, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote: According this article in Nature, people who have caught and survived? COVID infection and subsequently get the COVID vaccine develop super? immunity aka hybrid immunity. This super immunity protects the patient? against every POSSIBLE COVID strain. They tested this by creating? every possible mutation of the viral spike protein and testing patient? antibodies against them. People who are super immune seem protected? against all strains of COVID past, present, and future. Scientists are? hoping a third vaccine dose creates the same kind of super immunity as? having recovered the disease and getting vaccinated. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02795-x Around a year ago ? before Delta and other variants entered the? COVID-19 lexicon ? virologists Theodora Hatziioannou and Paul? Bieniasz, both at the Rockefeller University in New York City, set out? to make a version of a key SARS-CoV-2 protein with the ability to? dodge all the infection-blocking antibodies our body makes. The goal was to identify the parts of spike ? the protein SARS-CoV-2? uses to infect cells ? that are targeted by these neutralizing? antibodies in order to map a key part of our body's attack on the? virus. So the researchers mixed and matched potentially concerning? mutations identified in lab experiments and circulating viruses, and? tested their Franken-spikes in harmless ?pseudotype? viruses incapable? of causing COVID-19. In a study published this September in Nature1,? they reported that a spike mutant containing 20 changes was fully? resistant to neutralizing antibodies made by most of the people tested? who had been either infected or vaccinated ? but not to everyone?s. Those who had recovered from COVID-19 months before receiving their? jabs harboured antibodies capable of defanging the mutant spike, which? displays much more resistance to immune attack than any known? naturally occurring variant. These peoples? antibodies even blocked? other types of coronaviruses. ?It?s very likely they will be effective? against any future variant that SARS-CoV-2 throws against them,? says? Hatziioannou. As the world watches out for new coronavirus variants, the basis of? such ?super-immunity? has become one of the pandemic?s great? mysteries. Researchers hope that, by mapping the differences between? the immune protection that comes from infection compared with that? from vaccination, they can chart a safer path to this higher level of? protection. ?It has implications on boosters and how our immune responses are? primed for the next variant that emerges,? says Mehul Suthar, a? virologist at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia. ?We?re flying by? the seat of our pants trying to figure this stuff out.? Hybrid immunity Not long after countries began rolling out vaccines, researchers? started noticing unique properties of the vaccine responses of people? who had previously caught and recovered from COVID-19. ?We saw that? the antibodies come up to these astronomical levels that outpace what? you get from two doses of vaccine alone,? says Rishi Goel, an? immunologist at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia who is? part of a team studying super-immunity ? or ?hybrid immunity?, as most? scientists call it. Initial studies of people with hybrid immunity found that their serum? ? the antibody-containing portion of blood ? was far better able to? neutralize immune-evading strains, such as the Beta variant identified? in South Africa, and other coronaviruses, compared with ?naive?? vaccinated individuals who had never encountered SARS-CoV-22. It? wasn?t clear whether this was just due to the high levels of? neutralizing antibodies, or to other properties. The most recent studies suggest that hybrid immunity is, at least? partly, due to immune players called memory B cells. The bulk of? antibodies made after infection or vaccination come from short-lived? cells called plasmablasts, and antibody levels fall when these cells? inevitably die off. Once plasmablasts are gone, the main source of? antibodies becomes much rarer memory B cells that are triggered by? either infection or vaccination. International COVID-19 trial to restart with focus on immune responses Some of these long-lived cells make higher-quality antibodies than? plasmablasts, says Michel Nussenzweig, an immunologist at the? Rockefeller. That?s because they evolve in organs called lymph nodes,? gaining mutations that help them to bind more tightly to the spike? protein over time. When people who recovered from COVID-19 are? re-exposed to SARS-CoV-2?s spike, these cells multiply and churn out? more of these highly potent antibodies. ?You get a sniff of antigen, in this case of mRNA vaccine, and those? cells just explode,? says Goel. In this way, a first vaccine dose in? someone who has previously been infected is doing the same job as a? second dose in someone who has never had COVID-19. Potent antibodies Differences between the memory B cells triggered by infection and? those triggered by vaccination ? as well as the antibodies they make ?? might also underlie the heightened responses of hybrid immunity.? Infection and vaccination expose the spike protein to the immune? system in vastly different ways, Nussenzweig says. In a series of studies3,4,5, Nussenzweig?s team, which includes? Hatziioannou and Bieniasz, compared the antibody responses of infected? and vaccinated people. Both lead to the establishment of memory B? cells that make antibodies that have evolved to become more potent,? but the researchers suggest this occurs to a greater extent after? infection. The team isolated hundreds of memory B cells ? each making a unique? antibody ? from people at various time points after infection and? vaccination. Natural infection triggered antibodies that continued to? grow in potency and their breadth against variants for a year after? infection, whereas most of those elicited by vaccination seemed to? stop changing in the weeks after a second dose. Memory B cells that? evolved after infection were also more likely than those from? vaccination to make antibodies that block immune-evading variants such? as Beta and Delta. Health-care workers get the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccination in? Portland, Oregon. Health-care workers receiving the Pfizer?BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine.? People who get the vaccine after infection are less likely to test? positive for COVID-19 than individuals with no history of? infection.Credit: Paula Bronstein/Getty A separate study found that, compared with mRNA vaccination, infection? leads to a pool of antibodies that recognize variants more evenly by? targeting diverse regions of spike6. The researchers also found that? people with hybrid immunity produced consistently higher levels of? antibodies, compared with never-infected vaccinated people, for up to? seven months. Antibody levels were also more stable in people with? hybrid immunity, reports the team led by immunologist Duane Wesemann? at Harvard Medical School in Boston, Massachusetts. ?Not surprising? Many studies of hybrid immunity haven?t followed naive vaccine? recipients for as long as those who recovered from COVID-19, and it?s? possible their B cells will make antibodies that gain potency and? breadth with more time, additional vaccine doses, or both, researchers? say. It can take months for a stable pool of memory B cells to? establish itself and mature. ?It?s not surprising that people infected and vaccinated are getting a? nice response,? says Ali Ellebedy, a B-cell immunologist at Washington? University in St. Louis, Missouri. ?We are comparing someone who? started the race three to four months ago to someone who started the? race now.? There is some evidence that people who received both jabs without? previously being infected seem to be catching up. Ellebedy?s team? collected lymph-node samples from mRNA-vaccinated individuals and? found signs that some of their memory B cells triggered by the? vaccination were gaining mutations, up to 12 weeks after the second? dose, that enabled them to recognize diverse coronaviruses, including? some that cause common colds7. Goel, University of Pennsylvania immunologist John Wherry and their? colleagues found signs that six months after vaccination, memory B? cells from naive individuals were continuing to grow in number and? evolve greater capacity to neutralize variants8. Antibody levels fell? after vaccination, but these cells should start cranking out? antibodies if they encounter SARS-CoV-2 again. ?The reality is you? have a pool of high-quality memory B cells that are there to protect? you if you ever see this antigen again,? Goel says. Booster benefits A third vaccine dose might allow people who haven't been infected to? achieve the benefits of hybrid immunity, says Matthieu Mah?vas, an? immunologist at the Necker Institute for Sick Children in Paris. His? team found that some of the memory B cells from naive vaccine? recipients could recognize Beta and Delta, two months after? vaccination9. ?When you boost this pool, you can clearly imagine you? will generate potent neutralizing antibodies against variants,?? Mah?vas says. Extending the interval between vaccine doses could also mimic aspects? of hybrid immunity. In 2021, amid scarce vaccine supplies and a surge? in cases, officials in the Canadian province of Quebec recommended a? 16-week interval between first and second doses (since reduced to 8? weeks). A team co-led by Andr?s Finzi, a virologist at the University of? Montreal, Canada, found that people who received this regimen had? SARS-CoV-2 antibody levels similar to those in people with hybrid? immunity10. These antibodies could neutralize a swathe of SARS-CoV-2? variants ? as well as the virus behind the 2002?04 SARS epidemic. ?We? are able to bring naive people to almost the same level as previously? infected and vaccinated, which is our gold standard,? says Finzi. How ?killer? T cells could boost COVID immunity in face of new variants Understanding the mechanism behind hybrid immunity will be key to? emulating it, say scientists. The latest studies focus on antibody? responses made by B cells, and it?s likely that T-cell responses to? vaccination and infection behave differently. Natural infection also? triggers responses against viral proteins other than spike ? the? target of most vaccines. Nussenzweig wonders whether other factors? unique to natural infection are crucial. During infection, hundreds of? millions of viral particles populate the airways, encountering immune? cells that regularly visit nearby lymph nodes, where memory B cells? mature. Viral proteins stick around in the gut of some people months? after recovery, and it?s possible that this persistence helps B cells? hone their responses to SARS-CoV-2. Researchers say that it is also important to determine the real-world? effects of hybrid immunity. A study from Qatar suggests that people? who get Pfizer?BioNTech?s mRNA vaccine after infection are less likely? to test positive for COVID-19 than are individuals with no history of? infection11. Hybrid immunity might also be responsible for falling? case numbers across South America, says Gonzalo Bello Bentancor, a? virologist at the Oswaldo Cruz Institute in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.? Many South American countries experienced very high infection rates? earlier in the pandemic, but have now vaccinated a large proportion of? their populations. It's possible that hybrid immunity is better than? the immunity from vaccination alone at blocking transmission, says? Bello Bentancor. As breakthrough infections caused by the Delta variant stack up,? researchers including Nussenzweig are keen to study the immunity in? people who were infected after their COVID-19 vaccinations, rather? than before. An individual?s first exposure to influenza virus biases? their responses to subsequent exposures and vaccinations ? a? phenomenon called original antigenic sin ? and researchers want to? know if this occurs with SARS-CoV-2. Those studying hybrid immunity stress that ? whatever the potential? benefits ? the risks of a SARS-CoV-2 infection mean that it should be? avoided. ?We are not inviting anybody to get infected and then? vaccinated to have a good response,? says Finzi. ?Because some of them? will not make it through.? Nature 598, 393-394 (2021) doi: https://doi.org/10.1038/d41586-021-02795-x Stuart LaForge _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From guessmyneeds at yahoo.com Sat Oct 23 05:19:14 2021 From: guessmyneeds at yahoo.com (Sherry Knepper) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2021 05:19:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] COVID super immunity In-Reply-To: <1183258185.249768.1634966163999@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20211021095448.Horde.NmZ-r_GkHOJqYDoTCnuuNPH@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1183258185.249768.1634966163999@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1500329794.246770.1634966354239@mail.yahoo.com> And how can it be certain the immunity is permanent, meaning if the person dies it will not be from COVID-19? Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Sat, Oct 23, 2021 at 1:16 AM, Sherry Knepper wrote: But how many shots are needed for the vaccine requirement for the 100% covid19 immunity? Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 1:02 PM, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote: According this article in Nature, people who have caught and survived? COVID infection and subsequently get the COVID vaccine develop super? immunity aka hybrid immunity. This super immunity protects the patient? against every POSSIBLE COVID strain. They tested this by creating? every possible mutation of the viral spike protein and testing patient? antibodies against them. People who are super immune seem protected? against all strains of COVID past, present, and future. Scientists are? hoping a third vaccine dose creates the same kind of super immunity as? having recovered the disease and getting vaccinated. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02795-x Around a year ago ? before Delta and other variants entered the? COVID-19 lexicon ? virologists Theodora Hatziioannou and Paul? Bieniasz, both at the Rockefeller University in New York City, set out? to make a version of a key SARS-CoV-2 protein with the ability to? dodge all the infection-blocking antibodies our body makes. The goal was to identify the parts of spike ? the protein SARS-CoV-2? uses to infect cells ? that are targeted by these neutralizing? antibodies in order to map a key part of our body's attack on the? virus. So the researchers mixed and matched potentially concerning? mutations identified in lab experiments and circulating viruses, and? tested their Franken-spikes in harmless ?pseudotype? viruses incapable? of causing COVID-19. In a study published this September in Nature1,? they reported that a spike mutant containing 20 changes was fully? resistant to neutralizing antibodies made by most of the people tested? who had been either infected or vaccinated ? but not to everyone?s. Those who had recovered from COVID-19 months before receiving their? jabs harboured antibodies capable of defanging the mutant spike, which? displays much more resistance to immune attack than any known? naturally occurring variant. These peoples? antibodies even blocked? other types of coronaviruses. ?It?s very likely they will be effective? against any future variant that SARS-CoV-2 throws against them,? says? Hatziioannou. As the world watches out for new coronavirus variants, the basis of? such ?super-immunity? has become one of the pandemic?s great? mysteries. Researchers hope that, by mapping the differences between? the immune protection that comes from infection compared with that? from vaccination, they can chart a safer path to this higher level of? protection. ?It has implications on boosters and how our immune responses are? primed for the next variant that emerges,? says Mehul Suthar, a? virologist at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia. ?We?re flying by? the seat of our pants trying to figure this stuff out.? Hybrid immunity Not long after countries began rolling out vaccines, researchers? started noticing unique properties of the vaccine responses of people? who had previously caught and recovered from COVID-19. ?We saw that? the antibodies come up to these astronomical levels that outpace what? you get from two doses of vaccine alone,? says Rishi Goel, an? immunologist at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia who is? part of a team studying super-immunity ? or ?hybrid immunity?, as most? scientists call it. Initial studies of people with hybrid immunity found that their serum? ? the antibody-containing portion of blood ? was far better able to? neutralize immune-evading strains, such as the Beta variant identified? in South Africa, and other coronaviruses, compared with ?naive?? vaccinated individuals who had never encountered SARS-CoV-22. It? wasn?t clear whether this was just due to the high levels of? neutralizing antibodies, or to other properties. The most recent studies suggest that hybrid immunity is, at least? partly, due to immune players called memory B cells. The bulk of? antibodies made after infection or vaccination come from short-lived? cells called plasmablasts, and antibody levels fall when these cells? inevitably die off. Once plasmablasts are gone, the main source of? antibodies becomes much rarer memory B cells that are triggered by? either infection or vaccination. International COVID-19 trial to restart with focus on immune responses Some of these long-lived cells make higher-quality antibodies than? plasmablasts, says Michel Nussenzweig, an immunologist at the? Rockefeller. That?s because they evolve in organs called lymph nodes,? gaining mutations that help them to bind more tightly to the spike? protein over time. When people who recovered from COVID-19 are? re-exposed to SARS-CoV-2?s spike, these cells multiply and churn out? more of these highly potent antibodies. ?You get a sniff of antigen, in this case of mRNA vaccine, and those? cells just explode,? says Goel. In this way, a first vaccine dose in? someone who has previously been infected is doing the same job as a? second dose in someone who has never had COVID-19. Potent antibodies Differences between the memory B cells triggered by infection and? those triggered by vaccination ? as well as the antibodies they make ?? might also underlie the heightened responses of hybrid immunity.? Infection and vaccination expose the spike protein to the immune? system in vastly different ways, Nussenzweig says. In a series of studies3,4,5, Nussenzweig?s team, which includes? Hatziioannou and Bieniasz, compared the antibody responses of infected? and vaccinated people. Both lead to the establishment of memory B? cells that make antibodies that have evolved to become more potent,? but the researchers suggest this occurs to a greater extent after? infection. The team isolated hundreds of memory B cells ? each making a unique? antibody ? from people at various time points after infection and? vaccination. Natural infection triggered antibodies that continued to? grow in potency and their breadth against variants for a year after? infection, whereas most of those elicited by vaccination seemed to? stop changing in the weeks after a second dose. Memory B cells that? evolved after infection were also more likely than those from? vaccination to make antibodies that block immune-evading variants such? as Beta and Delta. Health-care workers get the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccination in? Portland, Oregon. Health-care workers receiving the Pfizer?BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine.? People who get the vaccine after infection are less likely to test? positive for COVID-19 than individuals with no history of? infection.Credit: Paula Bronstein/Getty A separate study found that, compared with mRNA vaccination, infection? leads to a pool of antibodies that recognize variants more evenly by? targeting diverse regions of spike6. The researchers also found that? people with hybrid immunity produced consistently higher levels of? antibodies, compared with never-infected vaccinated people, for up to? seven months. Antibody levels were also more stable in people with? hybrid immunity, reports the team led by immunologist Duane Wesemann? at Harvard Medical School in Boston, Massachusetts. ?Not surprising? Many studies of hybrid immunity haven?t followed naive vaccine? recipients for as long as those who recovered from COVID-19, and it?s? possible their B cells will make antibodies that gain potency and? breadth with more time, additional vaccine doses, or both, researchers? say. It can take months for a stable pool of memory B cells to? establish itself and mature. ?It?s not surprising that people infected and vaccinated are getting a? nice response,? says Ali Ellebedy, a B-cell immunologist at Washington? University in St. Louis, Missouri. ?We are comparing someone who? started the race three to four months ago to someone who started the? race now.? There is some evidence that people who received both jabs without? previously being infected seem to be catching up. Ellebedy?s team? collected lymph-node samples from mRNA-vaccinated individuals and? found signs that some of their memory B cells triggered by the? vaccination were gaining mutations, up to 12 weeks after the second? dose, that enabled them to recognize diverse coronaviruses, including? some that cause common colds7. Goel, University of Pennsylvania immunologist John Wherry and their? colleagues found signs that six months after vaccination, memory B? cells from naive individuals were continuing to grow in number and? evolve greater capacity to neutralize variants8. Antibody levels fell? after vaccination, but these cells should start cranking out? antibodies if they encounter SARS-CoV-2 again. ?The reality is you? have a pool of high-quality memory B cells that are there to protect? you if you ever see this antigen again,? Goel says. Booster benefits A third vaccine dose might allow people who haven't been infected to? achieve the benefits of hybrid immunity, says Matthieu Mah?vas, an? immunologist at the Necker Institute for Sick Children in Paris. His? team found that some of the memory B cells from naive vaccine? recipients could recognize Beta and Delta, two months after? vaccination9. ?When you boost this pool, you can clearly imagine you? will generate potent neutralizing antibodies against variants,?? Mah?vas says. Extending the interval between vaccine doses could also mimic aspects? of hybrid immunity. In 2021, amid scarce vaccine supplies and a surge? in cases, officials in the Canadian province of Quebec recommended a? 16-week interval between first and second doses (since reduced to 8? weeks). A team co-led by Andr?s Finzi, a virologist at the University of? Montreal, Canada, found that people who received this regimen had? SARS-CoV-2 antibody levels similar to those in people with hybrid? immunity10. These antibodies could neutralize a swathe of SARS-CoV-2? variants ? as well as the virus behind the 2002?04 SARS epidemic. ?We? are able to bring naive people to almost the same level as previously? infected and vaccinated, which is our gold standard,? says Finzi. How ?killer? T cells could boost COVID immunity in face of new variants Understanding the mechanism behind hybrid immunity will be key to? emulating it, say scientists. The latest studies focus on antibody? responses made by B cells, and it?s likely that T-cell responses to? vaccination and infection behave differently. Natural infection also? triggers responses against viral proteins other than spike ? the? target of most vaccines. Nussenzweig wonders whether other factors? unique to natural infection are crucial. During infection, hundreds of? millions of viral particles populate the airways, encountering immune? cells that regularly visit nearby lymph nodes, where memory B cells? mature. Viral proteins stick around in the gut of some people months? after recovery, and it?s possible that this persistence helps B cells? hone their responses to SARS-CoV-2. Researchers say that it is also important to determine the real-world? effects of hybrid immunity. A study from Qatar suggests that people? who get Pfizer?BioNTech?s mRNA vaccine after infection are less likely? to test positive for COVID-19 than are individuals with no history of? infection11. Hybrid immunity might also be responsible for falling? case numbers across South America, says Gonzalo Bello Bentancor, a? virologist at the Oswaldo Cruz Institute in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.? Many South American countries experienced very high infection rates? earlier in the pandemic, but have now vaccinated a large proportion of? their populations. It's possible that hybrid immunity is better than? the immunity from vaccination alone at blocking transmission, says? Bello Bentancor. As breakthrough infections caused by the Delta variant stack up,? researchers including Nussenzweig are keen to study the immunity in? people who were infected after their COVID-19 vaccinations, rather? than before. An individual?s first exposure to influenza virus biases? their responses to subsequent exposures and vaccinations ? a? phenomenon called original antigenic sin ? and researchers want to? know if this occurs with SARS-CoV-2. Those studying hybrid immunity stress that ? whatever the potential? benefits ? the risks of a SARS-CoV-2 infection mean that it should be? avoided. ?We are not inviting anybody to get infected and then? vaccinated to have a good response,? says Finzi. ?Because some of them? will not make it through.? Nature 598, 393-394 (2021) doi: https://doi.org/10.1038/d41586-021-02795-x Stuart LaForge _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat Oct 23 07:35:54 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2021 00:35:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] COVID super immunity In-Reply-To: <1500329794.246770.1634966354239@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20211021095448.Horde.NmZ-r_GkHOJqYDoTCnuuNPH@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1183258185.249768.1634966163999@mail.yahoo.com> <1500329794.246770.1634966354239@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: That's easy: kill them by some other means. More humanely IF possible: immunize enough people for long enough that COVID-19 itself dies off, by running out of hosts, much like polio types 2 and 3. On Fri, Oct 22, 2021 at 10:24 PM Sherry Knepper via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > And how can it be certain the immunity is permanent, meaning if the person > dies it will not be from COVID-19? > > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android > > > On Sat, Oct 23, 2021 at 1:16 AM, Sherry Knepper > wrote: > > But how many shots are needed for the vaccine requirement for the 100% > covid19 immunity? > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android > > > On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 1:02 PM, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat > wrote: > > According this article in Nature, people who have caught and survived > COVID infection and subsequently get the COVID vaccine develop super > immunity aka hybrid immunity. This super immunity protects the patient > against every POSSIBLE COVID strain. They tested this by creating > every possible mutation of the viral spike protein and testing patient > antibodies against them. People who are super immune seem protected > against all strains of COVID past, present, and future. Scientists are > hoping a third vaccine dose creates the same kind of super immunity as > having recovered the disease and getting vaccinated. > > https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02795-x > > Around a year ago ? before Delta and other variants entered the > COVID-19 lexicon ? virologists Theodora Hatziioannou and Paul > Bieniasz, both at the Rockefeller University in New York City, set out > to make a version of a key SARS-CoV-2 protein with the ability to > dodge all the infection-blocking antibodies our body makes. > > The goal was to identify the parts of spike ? the protein SARS-CoV-2 > uses to infect cells ? that are targeted by these neutralizing > antibodies in order to map a key part of our body's attack on the > virus. So the researchers mixed and matched potentially concerning > mutations identified in lab experiments and circulating viruses, and > tested their Franken-spikes in harmless ?pseudotype? viruses incapable > of causing COVID-19. In a study published this September in Nature1, > they reported that a spike mutant containing 20 changes was fully > resistant to neutralizing antibodies made by most of the people tested > who had been either infected or vaccinated ? but not to everyone?s. > > Those who had recovered from COVID-19 months before receiving their > jabs harboured antibodies capable of defanging the mutant spike, which > displays much more resistance to immune attack than any known > naturally occurring variant. These peoples? antibodies even blocked > other types of coronaviruses. ?It?s very likely they will be effective > against any future variant that SARS-CoV-2 throws against them,? says > Hatziioannou. > > As the world watches out for new coronavirus variants, the basis of > such ?super-immunity? has become one of the pandemic?s great > mysteries. Researchers hope that, by mapping the differences between > the immune protection that comes from infection compared with that > from vaccination, they can chart a safer path to this higher level of > protection. > > ?It has implications on boosters and how our immune responses are > primed for the next variant that emerges,? says Mehul Suthar, a > virologist at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia. ?We?re flying by > the seat of our pants trying to figure this stuff out.? > > Hybrid immunity > Not long after countries began rolling out vaccines, researchers > started noticing unique properties of the vaccine responses of people > who had previously caught and recovered from COVID-19. ?We saw that > the antibodies come up to these astronomical levels that outpace what > you get from two doses of vaccine alone,? says Rishi Goel, an > immunologist at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia who is > part of a team studying super-immunity ? or ?hybrid immunity?, as most > scientists call it. > > Initial studies of people with hybrid immunity found that their serum > ? the antibody-containing portion of blood ? was far better able to > neutralize immune-evading strains, such as the Beta variant identified > in South Africa, and other coronaviruses, compared with ?naive? > vaccinated individuals who had never encountered SARS-CoV-22. It > wasn?t clear whether this was just due to the high levels of > neutralizing antibodies, or to other properties. > > The most recent studies suggest that hybrid immunity is, at least > partly, due to immune players called memory B cells. The bulk of > antibodies made after infection or vaccination come from short-lived > cells called plasmablasts, and antibody levels fall when these cells > inevitably die off. Once plasmablasts are gone, the main source of > antibodies becomes much rarer memory B cells that are triggered by > either infection or vaccination. > > > International COVID-19 trial to restart with focus on immune responses > > Some of these long-lived cells make higher-quality antibodies than > plasmablasts, says Michel Nussenzweig, an immunologist at the > Rockefeller. That?s because they evolve in organs called lymph nodes, > gaining mutations that help them to bind more tightly to the spike > protein over time. When people who recovered from COVID-19 are > re-exposed to SARS-CoV-2?s spike, these cells multiply and churn out > more of these highly potent antibodies. > > ?You get a sniff of antigen, in this case of mRNA vaccine, and those > cells just explode,? says Goel. In this way, a first vaccine dose in > someone who has previously been infected is doing the same job as a > second dose in someone who has never had COVID-19. > > Potent antibodies > Differences between the memory B cells triggered by infection and > those triggered by vaccination ? as well as the antibodies they make ? > might also underlie the heightened responses of hybrid immunity. > Infection and vaccination expose the spike protein to the immune > system in vastly different ways, Nussenzweig says. > > In a series of studies3,4,5, Nussenzweig?s team, which includes > Hatziioannou and Bieniasz, compared the antibody responses of infected > and vaccinated people. Both lead to the establishment of memory B > cells that make antibodies that have evolved to become more potent, > but the researchers suggest this occurs to a greater extent after > infection. > > The team isolated hundreds of memory B cells ? each making a unique > antibody ? from people at various time points after infection and > vaccination. Natural infection triggered antibodies that continued to > grow in potency and their breadth against variants for a year after > infection, whereas most of those elicited by vaccination seemed to > stop changing in the weeks after a second dose. Memory B cells that > evolved after infection were also more likely than those from > vaccination to make antibodies that block immune-evading variants such > as Beta and Delta. > > Health-care workers get the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccination in > Portland, Oregon. > Health-care workers receiving the Pfizer?BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine. > People who get the vaccine after infection are less likely to test > positive for COVID-19 than individuals with no history of > infection.Credit: Paula Bronstein/Getty > > A separate study found that, compared with mRNA vaccination, infection > leads to a pool of antibodies that recognize variants more evenly by > targeting diverse regions of spike6. The researchers also found that > people with hybrid immunity produced consistently higher levels of > antibodies, compared with never-infected vaccinated people, for up to > seven months. Antibody levels were also more stable in people with > hybrid immunity, reports the team led by immunologist Duane Wesemann > at Harvard Medical School in Boston, Massachusetts. > > ?Not surprising? > Many studies of hybrid immunity haven?t followed naive vaccine > recipients for as long as those who recovered from COVID-19, and it?s > possible their B cells will make antibodies that gain potency and > breadth with more time, additional vaccine doses, or both, researchers > say. It can take months for a stable pool of memory B cells to > establish itself and mature. > > ?It?s not surprising that people infected and vaccinated are getting a > nice response,? says Ali Ellebedy, a B-cell immunologist at Washington > University in St. Louis, Missouri. ?We are comparing someone who > started the race three to four months ago to someone who started the > race now.? > > There is some evidence that people who received both jabs without > previously being infected seem to be catching up. Ellebedy?s team > collected lymph-node samples from mRNA-vaccinated individuals and > found signs that some of their memory B cells triggered by the > vaccination were gaining mutations, up to 12 weeks after the second > dose, that enabled them to recognize diverse coronaviruses, including > some that cause common colds7. > > Goel, University of Pennsylvania immunologist John Wherry and their > colleagues found signs that six months after vaccination, memory B > cells from naive individuals were continuing to grow in number and > evolve greater capacity to neutralize variants8. Antibody levels fell > after vaccination, but these cells should start cranking out > antibodies if they encounter SARS-CoV-2 again. ?The reality is you > have a pool of high-quality memory B cells that are there to protect > you if you ever see this antigen again,? Goel says. > > Booster benefits > A third vaccine dose might allow people who haven't been infected to > achieve the benefits of hybrid immunity, says Matthieu Mah?vas, an > immunologist at the Necker Institute for Sick Children in Paris. His > team found that some of the memory B cells from naive vaccine > recipients could recognize Beta and Delta, two months after > vaccination9. ?When you boost this pool, you can clearly imagine you > will generate potent neutralizing antibodies against variants,? > Mah?vas says. > > Extending the interval between vaccine doses could also mimic aspects > of hybrid immunity. In 2021, amid scarce vaccine supplies and a surge > in cases, officials in the Canadian province of Quebec recommended a > 16-week interval between first and second doses (since reduced to 8 > weeks). > > A team co-led by Andr?s Finzi, a virologist at the University of > Montreal, Canada, found that people who received this regimen had > SARS-CoV-2 antibody levels similar to those in people with hybrid > immunity10. These antibodies could neutralize a swathe of SARS-CoV-2 > variants ? as well as the virus behind the 2002?04 SARS epidemic. ?We > are able to bring naive people to almost the same level as previously > infected and vaccinated, which is our gold standard,? says Finzi. > > > How ?killer? T cells could boost COVID immunity in face of new variants > > Understanding the mechanism behind hybrid immunity will be key to > emulating it, say scientists. The latest studies focus on antibody > responses made by B cells, and it?s likely that T-cell responses to > vaccination and infection behave differently. Natural infection also > triggers responses against viral proteins other than spike ? the > target of most vaccines. Nussenzweig wonders whether other factors > unique to natural infection are crucial. During infection, hundreds of > millions of viral particles populate the airways, encountering immune > cells that regularly visit nearby lymph nodes, where memory B cells > mature. Viral proteins stick around in the gut of some people months > after recovery, and it?s possible that this persistence helps B cells > hone their responses to SARS-CoV-2. > > Researchers say that it is also important to determine the real-world > effects of hybrid immunity. A study from Qatar suggests that people > who get Pfizer?BioNTech?s mRNA vaccine after infection are less likely > to test positive for COVID-19 than are individuals with no history of > infection11. Hybrid immunity might also be responsible for falling > case numbers across South America, says Gonzalo Bello Bentancor, a > virologist at the Oswaldo Cruz Institute in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. > Many South American countries experienced very high infection rates > earlier in the pandemic, but have now vaccinated a large proportion of > their populations. It's possible that hybrid immunity is better than > the immunity from vaccination alone at blocking transmission, says > Bello Bentancor. > > As breakthrough infections caused by the Delta variant stack up, > researchers including Nussenzweig are keen to study the immunity in > people who were infected after their COVID-19 vaccinations, rather > than before. An individual?s first exposure to influenza virus biases > their responses to subsequent exposures and vaccinations ? a > phenomenon called original antigenic sin ? and researchers want to > know if this occurs with SARS-CoV-2. > > Those studying hybrid immunity stress that ? whatever the potential > benefits ? the risks of a SARS-CoV-2 infection mean that it should be > avoided. ?We are not inviting anybody to get infected and then > vaccinated to have a good response,? says Finzi. ?Because some of them > will not make it through.? > > Nature 598, 393-394 (2021) > > doi: https://doi.org/10.1038/d41586-021-02795-x > > Stuart LaForge > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Oct 23 11:07:45 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2021 04:07:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] COVID super immunity In-Reply-To: <1500329794.246770.1634966354239@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20211021095448.Horde.NmZ-r_GkHOJqYDoTCnuuNPH@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1183258185.249768.1634966163999@mail.yahoo.com> <1500329794.246770.1634966354239@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005301d7c7fe$35471330$9fd53990$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Sherry Knepper via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] COVID super immunity >?But how many shots are needed for the vaccine requirement for the 100% covid19 immunity? Sherry no one knows this. In order to gain some insights on your question, we would advertise across this big wide planet for people deep in quadrant 2: find those whose fear of covid-19 is very high and their fear of immunization is very low. Then we give them as many of these immunizations as they want. Then we make a spreadsheet with a column for how many shots the patient took and see how many it was before there was complete immunity. I know of no other way to know for sure. >?And how can it be certain the immunity is permanent, meaning if the person dies it will not be from COVID-19? Sherry Find some quadrant 4 people who took the immunization under pressure, to prevent job loss for instance. They took only one dose. See how long until their covid rate matches the non-immunized public who has never had covid. With that data we can estimate the time span of immunity for one J and J, and even more interesting in a way, the immunity span for those who took one shot of one of the brands which recommended two doses. It is unfortunate that we had a systematic failure in how covid data was collected. We discovered information that could have been far more useful than it was had we some kind of systematic way of collecting and organizing data, such as that huge bike rally in Sturgis in August of 2020. Plenty of people predicted that would be a super-spreader event, but it turned out to be a mostly anomalous sub-spreader. That was never explained adequately. In retrospect it is difficult to prove it really was a sub-spreader because of a lack of systematic data collection and retention. So? at this point we are waiting for some means of adequately collecting and organizing health data. An insight I might offer: such a system cannot be done in the USA. Reason: it would likely require open access to health records. In the USA those cannot be forced open because of constitutional rights found in the 4th Amendment. So we would need to go to a country which does not have legally-coded individual privacy rights. Where? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 12036 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Oct 23 11:30:03 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2021 04:30:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] COVID super immunity In-Reply-To: <005301d7c7fe$35471330$9fd53990$@rainier66.com> References: <20211021095448.Horde.NmZ-r_GkHOJqYDoTCnuuNPH@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1183258185.249768.1634966163999@mail.yahoo.com> <1500329794.246770.1634966354239@mail.yahoo.com> <005301d7c7fe$35471330$9fd53990$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005b01d7c801$5303a7f0$f90af7d0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com ? >? at this point we are waiting for some means of adequately collecting and organizing health data. ? In the USA those cannot be forced open because of constitutional rights found in the 4th Amendment. So we would need to go to a country which does not have legally-coded individual privacy rights. Where? spike Australia? The video I have seen makes it look like Australia is seizing power from its citizenry and might already have the legal authority to require immunization of all its citizens. Unlike the USA, it does not have porous borders or any overland access. That island continent looks like our covid laboratory. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sat Oct 23 14:30:03 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 01:30:03 +1100 Subject: [ExI] COVID super immunity In-Reply-To: <1500329794.246770.1634966354239@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20211021095448.Horde.NmZ-r_GkHOJqYDoTCnuuNPH@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1183258185.249768.1634966163999@mail.yahoo.com> <1500329794.246770.1634966354239@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Oct 2021 at 16:24, Sherry Knepper via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > And how can it be certain the immunity is permanent, meaning if the person > dies it will not be from COVID-19? > > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android > > Follow up and compare people who have had two vaccine shots, three shots, or two shots and COVID-19 and monitor for coronavirus infection. It should be fairly easy to find a large enough sample given that there have been hundreds of millions of COVID-19 cases and billions of vaccines given. > > On Sat, Oct 23, 2021 at 1:16 AM, Sherry Knepper > wrote: > > But how many shots are needed for the vaccine requirement for the 100% > covid19 immunity? > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android > > > On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 1:02 PM, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat > wrote: > > According this article in Nature, people who have caught and survived > COVID infection and subsequently get the COVID vaccine develop super > immunity aka hybrid immunity. This super immunity protects the patient > against every POSSIBLE COVID strain. They tested this by creating > every possible mutation of the viral spike protein and testing patient > antibodies against them. People who are super immune seem protected > against all strains of COVID past, present, and future. Scientists are > hoping a third vaccine dose creates the same kind of super immunity as > having recovered the disease and getting vaccinated. > > https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02795-x > > Around a year ago ? before Delta and other variants entered the > COVID-19 lexicon ? virologists Theodora Hatziioannou and Paul > Bieniasz, both at the Rockefeller University in New York City, set out > to make a version of a key SARS-CoV-2 protein with the ability to > dodge all the infection-blocking antibodies our body makes. > > The goal was to identify the parts of spike ? the protein SARS-CoV-2 > uses to infect cells ? that are targeted by these neutralizing > antibodies in order to map a key part of our body's attack on the > virus. So the researchers mixed and matched potentially concerning > mutations identified in lab experiments and circulating viruses, and > tested their Franken-spikes in harmless ?pseudotype? viruses incapable > of causing COVID-19. In a study published this September in Nature1, > they reported that a spike mutant containing 20 changes was fully > resistant to neutralizing antibodies made by most of the people tested > who had been either infected or vaccinated ? but not to everyone?s. > > Those who had recovered from COVID-19 months before receiving their > jabs harboured antibodies capable of defanging the mutant spike, which > displays much more resistance to immune attack than any known > naturally occurring variant. These peoples? antibodies even blocked > other types of coronaviruses. ?It?s very likely they will be effective > against any future variant that SARS-CoV-2 throws against them,? says > Hatziioannou. > > As the world watches out for new coronavirus variants, the basis of > such ?super-immunity? has become one of the pandemic?s great > mysteries. Researchers hope that, by mapping the differences between > the immune protection that comes from infection compared with that > from vaccination, they can chart a safer path to this higher level of > protection. > > ?It has implications on boosters and how our immune responses are > primed for the next variant that emerges,? says Mehul Suthar, a > virologist at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia. ?We?re flying by > the seat of our pants trying to figure this stuff out.? > > Hybrid immunity > Not long after countries began rolling out vaccines, researchers > started noticing unique properties of the vaccine responses of people > who had previously caught and recovered from COVID-19. ?We saw that > the antibodies come up to these astronomical levels that outpace what > you get from two doses of vaccine alone,? says Rishi Goel, an > immunologist at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia who is > part of a team studying super-immunity ? or ?hybrid immunity?, as most > scientists call it. > > Initial studies of people with hybrid immunity found that their serum > ? the antibody-containing portion of blood ? was far better able to > neutralize immune-evading strains, such as the Beta variant identified > in South Africa, and other coronaviruses, compared with ?naive? > vaccinated individuals who had never encountered SARS-CoV-22. It > wasn?t clear whether this was just due to the high levels of > neutralizing antibodies, or to other properties. > > The most recent studies suggest that hybrid immunity is, at least > partly, due to immune players called memory B cells. The bulk of > antibodies made after infection or vaccination come from short-lived > cells called plasmablasts, and antibody levels fall when these cells > inevitably die off. Once plasmablasts are gone, the main source of > antibodies becomes much rarer memory B cells that are triggered by > either infection or vaccination. > > > International COVID-19 trial to restart with focus on immune responses > > Some of these long-lived cells make higher-quality antibodies than > plasmablasts, says Michel Nussenzweig, an immunologist at the > Rockefeller. That?s because they evolve in organs called lymph nodes, > gaining mutations that help them to bind more tightly to the spike > protein over time. When people who recovered from COVID-19 are > re-exposed to SARS-CoV-2?s spike, these cells multiply and churn out > more of these highly potent antibodies. > > ?You get a sniff of antigen, in this case of mRNA vaccine, and those > cells just explode,? says Goel. In this way, a first vaccine dose in > someone who has previously been infected is doing the same job as a > second dose in someone who has never had COVID-19. > > Potent antibodies > Differences between the memory B cells triggered by infection and > those triggered by vaccination ? as well as the antibodies they make ? > might also underlie the heightened responses of hybrid immunity. > Infection and vaccination expose the spike protein to the immune > system in vastly different ways, Nussenzweig says. > > In a series of studies3,4,5, Nussenzweig?s team, which includes > Hatziioannou and Bieniasz, compared the antibody responses of infected > and vaccinated people. Both lead to the establishment of memory B > cells that make antibodies that have evolved to become more potent, > but the researchers suggest this occurs to a greater extent after > infection. > > The team isolated hundreds of memory B cells ? each making a unique > antibody ? from people at various time points after infection and > vaccination. Natural infection triggered antibodies that continued to > grow in potency and their breadth against variants for a year after > infection, whereas most of those elicited by vaccination seemed to > stop changing in the weeks after a second dose. Memory B cells that > evolved after infection were also more likely than those from > vaccination to make antibodies that block immune-evading variants such > as Beta and Delta. > > Health-care workers get the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccination in > Portland, Oregon. > Health-care workers receiving the Pfizer?BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine. > People who get the vaccine after infection are less likely to test > positive for COVID-19 than individuals with no history of > infection.Credit: Paula Bronstein/Getty > > A separate study found that, compared with mRNA vaccination, infection > leads to a pool of antibodies that recognize variants more evenly by > targeting diverse regions of spike6. The researchers also found that > people with hybrid immunity produced consistently higher levels of > antibodies, compared with never-infected vaccinated people, for up to > seven months. Antibody levels were also more stable in people with > hybrid immunity, reports the team led by immunologist Duane Wesemann > at Harvard Medical School in Boston, Massachusetts. > > ?Not surprising? > Many studies of hybrid immunity haven?t followed naive vaccine > recipients for as long as those who recovered from COVID-19, and it?s > possible their B cells will make antibodies that gain potency and > breadth with more time, additional vaccine doses, or both, researchers > say. It can take months for a stable pool of memory B cells to > establish itself and mature. > > ?It?s not surprising that people infected and vaccinated are getting a > nice response,? says Ali Ellebedy, a B-cell immunologist at Washington > University in St. Louis, Missouri. ?We are comparing someone who > started the race three to four months ago to someone who started the > race now.? > > There is some evidence that people who received both jabs without > previously being infected seem to be catching up. Ellebedy?s team > collected lymph-node samples from mRNA-vaccinated individuals and > found signs that some of their memory B cells triggered by the > vaccination were gaining mutations, up to 12 weeks after the second > dose, that enabled them to recognize diverse coronaviruses, including > some that cause common colds7. > > Goel, University of Pennsylvania immunologist John Wherry and their > colleagues found signs that six months after vaccination, memory B > cells from naive individuals were continuing to grow in number and > evolve greater capacity to neutralize variants8. Antibody levels fell > after vaccination, but these cells should start cranking out > antibodies if they encounter SARS-CoV-2 again. ?The reality is you > have a pool of high-quality memory B cells that are there to protect > you if you ever see this antigen again,? Goel says. > > Booster benefits > A third vaccine dose might allow people who haven't been infected to > achieve the benefits of hybrid immunity, says Matthieu Mah?vas, an > immunologist at the Necker Institute for Sick Children in Paris. His > team found that some of the memory B cells from naive vaccine > recipients could recognize Beta and Delta, two months after > vaccination9. ?When you boost this pool, you can clearly imagine you > will generate potent neutralizing antibodies against variants,? > Mah?vas says. > > Extending the interval between vaccine doses could also mimic aspects > of hybrid immunity. In 2021, amid scarce vaccine supplies and a surge > in cases, officials in the Canadian province of Quebec recommended a > 16-week interval between first and second doses (since reduced to 8 > weeks). > > A team co-led by Andr?s Finzi, a virologist at the University of > Montreal, Canada, found that people who received this regimen had > SARS-CoV-2 antibody levels similar to those in people with hybrid > immunity10. These antibodies could neutralize a swathe of SARS-CoV-2 > variants ? as well as the virus behind the 2002?04 SARS epidemic. ?We > are able to bring naive people to almost the same level as previously > infected and vaccinated, which is our gold standard,? says Finzi. > > > How ?killer? T cells could boost COVID immunity in face of new variants > > Understanding the mechanism behind hybrid immunity will be key to > emulating it, say scientists. The latest studies focus on antibody > responses made by B cells, and it?s likely that T-cell responses to > vaccination and infection behave differently. Natural infection also > triggers responses against viral proteins other than spike ? the > target of most vaccines. Nussenzweig wonders whether other factors > unique to natural infection are crucial. During infection, hundreds of > millions of viral particles populate the airways, encountering immune > cells that regularly visit nearby lymph nodes, where memory B cells > mature. Viral proteins stick around in the gut of some people months > after recovery, and it?s possible that this persistence helps B cells > hone their responses to SARS-CoV-2. > > Researchers say that it is also important to determine the real-world > effects of hybrid immunity. A study from Qatar suggests that people > who get Pfizer?BioNTech?s mRNA vaccine after infection are less likely > to test positive for COVID-19 than are individuals with no history of > infection11. Hybrid immunity might also be responsible for falling > case numbers across South America, says Gonzalo Bello Bentancor, a > virologist at the Oswaldo Cruz Institute in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. > Many South American countries experienced very high infection rates > earlier in the pandemic, but have now vaccinated a large proportion of > their populations. It's possible that hybrid immunity is better than > the immunity from vaccination alone at blocking transmission, says > Bello Bentancor. > > As breakthrough infections caused by the Delta variant stack up, > researchers including Nussenzweig are keen to study the immunity in > people who were infected after their COVID-19 vaccinations, rather > than before. An individual?s first exposure to influenza virus biases > their responses to subsequent exposures and vaccinations ? a > phenomenon called original antigenic sin ? and researchers want to > know if this occurs with SARS-CoV-2. > > Those studying hybrid immunity stress that ? whatever the potential > benefits ? the risks of a SARS-CoV-2 infection mean that it should be > avoided. ?We are not inviting anybody to get infected and then > vaccinated to have a good response,? says Finzi. ?Because some of them > will not make it through.? > > Nature 598, 393-394 (2021) > > doi: https://doi.org/10.1038/d41586-021-02795-x > > Stuart LaForge > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hibbard at wisc.edu Sun Oct 24 08:22:42 2021 From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 08:22:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting Message-ID: I am interested in manipulation of opinion by the media and the Alec Baldwin shooting is a good example. All the media coverage I can find is focused on the question of how a live round made it into the gun Baldwin used to shoot cinematographer Halyna Hutchins. I have not seen any coverage that asks why Baldwin fired the gun at Hutchins. She was acinematographer not an actor so it is unlikely that Baldwin fired the gun as part of a scene for the movie. As a child I was always taught to never point a gun at another person, even if I was sure it was unloaded, and certainly to never fire a gun at another person. It seems an obvious point that the media should be raising, about why did Baldwin fire the gun at Hutchins and what is his responsibility for this gross breach of gun safety. Surely this is the crime of reckless endangerment. Has anyone seen the media raise this issue? From mbb386 at main.nc.us Sun Oct 24 12:45:45 2021 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 08:45:45 -0400 Subject: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5c0ce5e1384c1cdff40e6d16e61e2dbb.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> The 4 rules of gun safety: * The gun is always loaded. * Never let the gun point at anything that you are not willing to blow away. * Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target and you are ready to shoot. * Know your target and what is behind it. It seems the either Mr Baldwin did not know these rules or he did not care if he shot someone or not. Why would he want to shoot someone, or that particular person? That's a good question. Pity. Everyone I know who has had exposure to guns is aware of these rules. They're not something new. Regards, MB From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Oct 24 13:05:08 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 14:05:08 +0100 Subject: [ExI] our world In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <986a0f7a-0815-fc65-c7e9-2068095a14c9@zaiboc.net> On 23/10/2021 06:20, billw asked: > Is it possible to even think of a world, a physical world, that is > better than ours?? What would it look like?? ? bill w > > I was thinking of just the physical world itself, with humans and > their doings out of the picture With humans and their doings out of the picture, the question is meaningless. Without humans, or some other equivalent sapience to experience it, why would a featureless, colourless infinite plain be any better or worse than a sphere of water, or a solar system consisting entirely of a star and trillions of asteriods and comets, etc.? Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Sun Oct 24 13:17:35 2021 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 06:17:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting Message-ID: <20211024061735.Horde.5ZmEnf94BaeAIkAB8bGxA5Z@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Another important question is why were there live rounds on a movie set the first place? Social media has been big with the comparison to Brandon Lee's shooting on the set of the Crow. But in that case, it was a full-charge blank that dislodged a bullet stuck in the gun from a previous misfire. For comparison, here is an excellent documentary about the bizarre chain of circumstances that led to Lee's shooting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-4oWpnuAOk If the Halyna Hutchins case does not contain a similarly strange string of unlikely events so as diffuse blame and negligence over so many people as to make indictment impossible, then SOMEONE ought to be charged with a crime. Stuart LaForge From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Oct 24 13:17:55 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 14:17:55 +0100 Subject: [ExI] COVID super immunity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8771dcca-b661-bac9-5554-9642f31ef822@zaiboc.net> On 23/10/2021 06:20, Stuart LaForge wrote: > According this article in Nature, people who have caught and survived > COVID infection and subsequently get the COVID vaccine develop super > immunity aka hybrid immunity. This super immunity protects the patient > against every POSSIBLE COVID strain. They tested this by creating > every possible mutation of the viral spike protein and testing patient > antibodies against them. People who are super immune seem protected > against all strains of COVID past, present, and future. Scientists are > hoping a third vaccine dose creates the same kind of super immunity as > having recovered the disease and getting vaccinated. > > https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02795-x Woo-Hoo, if this can be believed, it means I'm going to be HYPER-IMMUNE, once I get my booster shot next week!! Got the virus 18 months ago, recovered, got double-vaccinated, and now have been invited to get a booster shot. (Unless the booster shot somehow undoes it all) If this is to be believed. I can't be the only one in this position on this list, I suggest if any of us tests positive, we mention it on the list. Theoretically, if this article is true, that will never happen. Ben From spike at rainier66.com Sun Oct 24 13:26:57 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 06:26:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001801d7c8da$d26acf80$77406e80$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of Bill Hibbard via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting >...I am interested in manipulation of opinion by the media and the Alec Baldwin shooting is a good example. ... why did Baldwin fire the gun at Hutchins and what is his responsibility for this gross breach of gun safety. Surely this is the crime of reckless endangerment... Bill Hibbard _______________________________________________ Hi Bill, This particular actor was bitterly critical of the organization that teaches people gun safety, including the rule which would have prevented this presumably accidental shooting. If someone hands you a firearm and tells you it is not loaded, the first thing you do is check to see if it is loaded. It is easy to tell. The NRA offers an excellent gun safety course. They really know what the heck they are doing. Actor Baldwin hated the NRA and wanted to sue them out of existence. Apparently his is opposed to gun safety. In 2021, actor Baldwin killed more people than all 5 million dues-paying NRA members combined. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Oct 24 13:37:38 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 08:37:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting In-Reply-To: <001801d7c8da$d26acf80$77406e80$@rainier66.com> References: <001801d7c8da$d26acf80$77406e80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Asst. director Halls said it was cold/unloaded. He should be charged. Reckless endangerment. Baldwin with something worse and made to take a gun safety course. I don't know if you can legally do it, but Baldwin should pay and pay big to the families of the victims. Civil suit? bill w On Sun, Oct 24, 2021 at 8:30 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > ...> On Behalf Of Bill Hibbard via extropy-chat > Subject: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting > > >...I am interested in manipulation of opinion by the media and the Alec > Baldwin shooting is a good example. ... why did Baldwin fire the gun at > Hutchins and what is his responsibility for this gross breach of gun > safety. > Surely this is the crime of reckless endangerment... Bill Hibbard > _______________________________________________ > > > Hi Bill, > > This particular actor was bitterly critical of the organization that > teaches > people gun safety, including the rule which would have prevented this > presumably accidental shooting. If someone hands you a firearm and tells > you it is not loaded, the first thing you do is check to see if it is > loaded. It is easy to tell. > > The NRA offers an excellent gun safety course. They really know what the > heck they are doing. Actor Baldwin hated the NRA and wanted to sue them > out > of existence. Apparently his is opposed to gun safety. > > In 2021, actor Baldwin killed more people than all 5 million dues-paying > NRA > members combined. > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Oct 24 14:12:32 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 07:12:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting In-Reply-To: References: <001801d7c8da$d26acf80$77406e80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003e01d7c8e1$302ef6e0$908ce4a0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2021 6:38 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: Re: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting >?Asst. director Halls said it was cold/unloaded. He should be charged. Reckless endangerment. Baldwin with something worse and made to take a gun safety course. I don't know if you can legally do it, but Baldwin should pay and pay big to the families of the victims. Civil suit? bill w Ja. The movie set was having labor disputes, the lead actor was known for anger management problems, they had already had two other accidental discharges of projectiles on that project. It is easy to imagine someone sneaking a loaded gun onto the set and switching out a stunt gun when no one is looking. Baldwin is a popular actor with an enormous following. He could partly make up for the lost life by apologizing to the NRA and endorsing its excellent gun safety course. Will he do it? I predict he has not the moral courage, but that is how he could attempt to make his life and the one he took mean something, to contribute to saving other innocent lives. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Sun Oct 24 14:46:31 2021 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 07:46:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting Message-ID: <20211024074631.Horde.p_a7EV-RbIF5e-SnlEKM0jX@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Spike brings up an interesting point. Baldwin was not only the lead actor in "Rust" but also one of its five producers. If there were labor-disputes, then Baldwin would be considered management rather than labor. Depending on how involved Halyna Hutchins (the cinematographer) would be in a camera crew strike, this could be motive on the part of Baldwin. Also, with regards any civil lawsuit by either the Hutchins family or the director who was also injured, Baldwin's and the other production company would be on the hook for any lawsuits. Here is the Hollywood Reporter's take on things. https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/alec-baldwin-shooting-rust-movie-munitions-experts-gun-safety-1235035713/ And they verify my earlier claim that, since the silent-film era, live ammunition has been prohibited on any movie set precisely for these sorts of safety reasons. Stuart LaForge From hibbard at wisc.edu Sun Oct 24 15:02:28 2021 From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 15:02:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I agree with all the responses about people involved being held responsible. My real interest is the media response, which isn't even asking about Baldwin's reckless behavior. All the media coverqage seems to be trying to distract attention from that issue. Stuart LaForge wrote: > https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/alec-baldwin-shooting-rust-movie-munitions-experts-gun-safety-1235035713/ Thanks for this. This Hollywood Reporter story at least discusses the rules for gun safety, violated by Baldwin. I am not on Facebook but it would be interesting to know if the issue of Baldwin's reckless behavior is being discussed there. What would be very interesting would be any attempt by Facebook to ban such a discussion. Like their ban, for a while, on discussing the possibility that Covid escaped from the Wuhan lab. I've read that in China they've banned images of Winnie the Pooh because it is a symbol of the slightly pudgy Xi Jinping. The interesting story on media is the stories they don't tell. From atymes at gmail.com Sun Oct 24 15:17:05 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 08:17:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 8:04 AM Bill Hibbard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I am not on Facebook but it would be interesting to know > if the issue of Baldwin's reckless behavior is being > discussed there. What would be very interesting would be > any attempt by Facebook to ban such a discussion. Like > their ban, for a while, on discussing the possibility > that Covid escaped from the Wuhan lab. > Their reasons for that are inapplicable here. Also, the reasons that media focus their stories in certain ways don't often apply to what Facebook deems to be acceptable discussion topics: those are two distinct sets of concerns. You can rest assured, there are multiple active discussions of this on FaceBook. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Oct 24 15:24:04 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 08:24:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting In-Reply-To: <20211024074631.Horde.p_a7EV-RbIF5e-SnlEKM0jX@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20211024074631.Horde.p_a7EV-RbIF5e-SnlEKM0jX@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <007401d7c8eb$2eb9d780$8c2d8680$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat .. >.Here is the Hollywood Reporter's take on things. . https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/alec-baldwin-shooting-ru st-movie-munitions-experts-gun-safety-1235035713 >.And they verify my earlier claim that, since the silent-film era, live ammunition has been prohibited on any movie set precisely for these sorts of safety reasons.Stuart LaForge _______________________________________________ Thanks for that article Stuart. I agree with their take on it and consider that image they used most unfortunate, for it demonstrates they aren't following NRA safety protocol. See why? Weapon in firing configuration with finger on trigger but the owner of those hands could not be aiming at a target with the hands in that position. If the weapon holder is aiming, he would need to be a contortionist with a lot more left shoulder flexibility than I have. Hollywood Inc has long stumbled over this. There are plenty of cases where the scene calls for someone to be firing directly at the camera. If the shooter is in the proper aiming posture, the camera cannot see the movie star's handsome face or the badassedness of the badass' face. So. Hollywood Inc works out ways around that, simultaneously teaching the proletariat incorrect ways to fire a weapon much faster than the NRA can teach people to proper gun safety. This explains why it is common in a shootout between one constable and one badass for the perp to miss with every round (often striking bystanders) but perish in the exchange: the lawman is trained and practiced, the miscreant is doing it just like the badass he saw on the big screen where the camera could see his badass face while he is firing. Mercy. Regarding the tragedy on the set, it seems so very obvious to me: just train the actors to check a prop gun to see if it is loaded before firing the damn thing. How hard is that? It takes two seconds to just check it. There is no reason to hang one's career, reputation and someone else's life on the set crew telling you a prop gun is cold. I wouldn't take anyone's word on that, not even R. Lee Ermey. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 10570 bytes Desc: not available URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sun Oct 24 15:30:46 2021 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 08:30:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <482F0F41-29EB-4AB7-9ED2-634AFBBEFBF2@gmail.com> On Oct 24, 2021, at 1:25 AM, Bill Hibbard via extropy-chat wrote: > ?I am interested in manipulation of opinion by the media > and the Alec Baldwin shooting is a good example. All > the media coverage I can find is focused on the question > of how a live round made it into the gun Baldwin used to > shoot cinematographer Halyna Hutchins. > > I have not seen any coverage that asks why Baldwin fired > the gun at Hutchins. She was acinematographer not an actor > so it is unlikely that Baldwin fired the gun as part of a > scene for the movie. That came up quite early in the reports. See, e.g., this: https://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory/explainer-guns-movie-sets-work-80732360 It should be obvious too that this happens a lot in film and TV: prop guns are pointed at the camera for effect. > As a child I was always taught to > never point a gun at another person, even if I was sure it was unloaded, and certainly to never fire a gun at another person. > > It seems an obvious point that the media should be raising, about why did Baldwin fire the gun at Hutchins and what is his responsibility for this gross breach of gun safety. > Surely this is the crime of reckless endangerment. > > Has anyone seen the media raise this issue? The above link is from two days ago, but if you google ?why was the gun pointed at the camera? you?ll find pages of mainstream media reports answering just this question. The question is an extremely obvious one and was answered early and often in coverage. And there?s also been media coverage of how this particular movie set was likely reckless or at least lax with gun safety. Just google ? rust movie set safety issues? and you see mainstream reports and opinion pieces on this. For instance: https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/movies/2021/10/22/alec-baldwin-rust-safety-complaints-before-death-reports/6141302001/ So the media, the mainstream one, for all its faults and biases (real or perceived), covered just the issues you?ve raised. This is like on Quora: one should find out if something has happened before asking why it happened. (Just change that here to asking if something didn?t happen before asking why it didn?t happen.) See: https://www.quora.com/Can-you-explain-Before-you-ask-why-ask-if-in-details-with-an-example/answer/Liz-Stell?ch=17&oid=42553502&share=1eeaf790&srid=3cPZk&target_type=answer Regards, Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sun Oct 24 16:01:24 2021 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 09:01:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting In-Reply-To: <001801d7c8da$d26acf80$77406e80$@rainier66.com> References: <001801d7c8da$d26acf80$77406e80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Oct 24, 2021, at 6:30 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > Hi Bill, > > This particular actor was bitterly critical of the organization that teaches > people gun safety, including the rule which would have prevented this > presumably accidental shooting. If someone hands you a firearm and tells > you it is not loaded, the first thing you do is check to see if it is > loaded. It is easy to tell. > > The NRA offers an excellent gun safety course. They really know what the > heck they are doing. Actor Baldwin hated the NRA and wanted to sue them out > of existence. Apparently his is opposed to gun safety. > > In 2021, actor Baldwin killed more people than all 5 million dues-paying NRA > members combined. A little googling here might help. And just common sense. Having a gun around at all ? whether you?re a member of the NRA or not ? is just makes it a lot more likely (as in possible at all) someone will be accidentally killed by said gun, no? I recall a report of an NRA accidentally shooting himself (though not to death) from a few years ago: https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/article143476929.html And here?s an NRA member convicted of killing someone: https://vpc.org/press/vpc-identifies-over-500-concealed-carry-killers-including-an-nra-lifetime-member/ So googling a little seems to show NRA members have killed people ? in the above link, ?murdered? is the correct term. (I?m surprised you used killed because one reason to have a gun is to potentially shoot and likely kill someone in self-defense or in defending others.) For years, NRA critics have pointed to accidental gun deaths. That?s been one of their (critics in recent years) major talking points for gun control. (I?m no fan of the NRA, though I am a fan of personal self-defense, which I think is actually a Left wing issue. Even the mainstream media recognizes this a wee bit: https://www.vice.com/en/article/gy5ex9/the-leftist-argument-against-gun-control .) Gun safety on film sets is usually taken very seriously. The issue with this incident is not that a high profile NRA critic blah blah blah, but that somehow gun safety was extremely lax on this particular set. See my post responding to Bill on this. Regards, Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hibbard at wisc.edu Sun Oct 24 16:14:02 2021 From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 16:14:02 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting Message-ID: <17af2f36-7148-a1ec-b680-b981eae683c7@wisc.edu> Thanks for your links Dan. I wasn't quite so remiss. I did look at quite a few media stories withoiut finding any that raised the issue of Baldwin's reckless behavior. I did a web search on: why did baldwin point gun at director and got a bunch of stories about Baldwin being told that the gun was cold. And my original post ended with a question: Has anyone seen the media raise this issue? So I was open to the possibility that the media had raised the issue. Just hadn't found it after some searching. From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Oct 24 16:32:21 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 11:32:21 -0500 Subject: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting In-Reply-To: <17af2f36-7148-a1ec-b680-b981eae683c7@wisc.edu> References: <17af2f36-7148-a1ec-b680-b981eae683c7@wisc.edu> Message-ID: Probably I will get corrected here. I am 100% for the 2nd amendment. Period. But the NRA has opposed such things as background checks, like at gun shows, which would filter out criminals and paranoid schizophrenics. How could a right wing org. do that? No sense. I draw the line at automatic weapons. I think that is already in place. A license for every gun. Already in place? bill w On Sun, Oct 24, 2021 at 11:15 AM Bill Hibbard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Thanks for your links Dan. > > I wasn't quite so remiss. I did look at quite a few > media stories withoiut finding any that raised the > issue of Baldwin's reckless behavior. I did a web > search on: > > why did baldwin point gun at director > > and got a bunch of stories about Baldwin being told > that the gun was cold. And my original post ended with > a question: > > Has anyone seen the media raise this issue? > > So I was open to the possibility that the media had > raised the issue. Just hadn't found it after some > searching. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Oct 24 16:39:06 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 09:39:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting In-Reply-To: References: <001801d7c8da$d26acf80$77406e80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00a601d7c8f5$aa62bfa0$ff283ee0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat ? >>?In 2021, actor Baldwin killed more people than all 5 million dues-paying NRA members combined. >? Having a gun around at all ? whether you?re a member of the NRA or not ? is just makes it a lot more likely (as in possible at all) someone will be accidentally killed by said gun, no? By using the term ?someone? equates the good guy with the bad guy with the suicide. Those are three different things, and two of those terms are opposites. If the good guy kills the bad guy, it prevents her from ever killing someone else, so that saves lives. Suicide with one?s own gun, well? my personal belief is that my life is mine and I have the right to do with it as I will. So that too is different and not comparable. Often statistics are distorted by mixing those three things. >?I recall a report of an NRA accidentally shooting himself (though not to death) from a few years ago: https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/article143476929.html Ja, accidental self-shootings occasionally happen. They are rare. Far more rare if the self-victim has taken the excellent NRA safety course, which they offer free. >?And here?s an NRA member convicted of killing someone: >?Dan https://vpc.org/press/vpc-identifies-over-500-concealed-carry-killers-including-an-nra-lifetime-member/ Ja road rage happens. I don?t think actor Baldwin did that however, even given his reputation for everything-rage not just the common road variety. I think the tragedy was an accident probably, although I am still at a loss to understand why there were live (non-blank) rounds on the set at all. That sounds to me like either an astonishing violation of safety protocol (most likely) or possibly an act of criminal malice, but the latter really stretches the imagination. I heard they had three accidental discharges of real ammo on that one movie project alone. That just boggles my mind they were still making that film after the first two incidents or even after the first one. I could vaguely imagine some disgruntled miscreant loading prop pistols with live rounds in an attempt to wreck the project because of personal disputes with management, but not to intentionally kill someone. In this particular case, there was known severe animosity between management and labor. Dan regarding the safety of having a personal gun or the safety value of legal concealed carry, the factor that messes up the statistics is that there is no good way to quantize the condition of the neighborhood in which one lives. In some areas, it really is a lot safer to be (legally) armed than to not be, but there are not many places like that and I would speculate that no one here is likely to live in any of them. If so, I do urge you to move out, forthwith. Most places are plenty safe, you don?t need to pack around that extra weight. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Oct 24 16:57:36 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 09:57:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting In-Reply-To: References: <17af2f36-7148-a1ec-b680-b981eae683c7@wisc.edu> Message-ID: <00ad01d7c8f8$3fd53160$bf7f9420$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting >? But the NRA has opposed such things as background checks, like at gun shows, which would filter out criminals and paranoid schizophrenics. How could a right wing org. do that? No sense. ? bill w Billw the background checks would catch criminals but not paranoid schizophrenics, for there is no way (that I know of) to be convicted of paranoid schizophrenia. Being a psychologist, you would recognize it, but it isn?t illegal to be in that state of mind, which is good, because if so, you as a professional would be obligated to report your patients you diagnosed as such, at which time they would? what? Be imprisoned? Or only imprisoned if they attempt to vote while being schizophrenic? And what about states which allow ex-convicts to vote? Would those states also allow ex-schizophrenics to vote? How do schizophrenics prove they have served their time as schizophrenic and are not that way anymore? These are important questions. If one holds a top level clearance for instance, that clearance can be pulled at any time for any reason, and they don?t hafta tell the newly-unemployed what was that reason (and they didn?t usually.) This policy has consequences. A good example is that people in that position who damn well do need psychological care and would benefit from it will go nowhere near a psychologist or psychiatrist, even if the condition with which they suffer is well-known and curable. A perfect example is obsessive compulsive. Billw, if I understand it correctly there are good safe effective treatments for that now, ja? Earlier in my life it was a constant worry, a legitimate risk to my own career to just be communicating with you guys. Every time I went into a periodic security interview I would tell everything: I don?t know all these people or where they are from, some might be schizophrenic or criminals or even commies. I was open and up front, they never pulled my clearance for being friends with you. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hibbard at wisc.edu Sun Oct 24 17:14:19 2021 From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 17:14:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting Message-ID: <7a698243-959a-3a6f-65f0-6e642113a79c@wisc.edu> Spike wrote: > Every time I went into a periodic security interview I > would tell everything: I don?t know all these people or > where they are from, some might be schizophrenic or > criminals or even commies. I was open and up front, they > never pulled my clearance for being friends with you. I can relate. In 1971 I needed a secret clearance and told them, "On two occasions I have had roommates who were convicted of attempting to firebomb military buildings." The lady said, "Oh my," but I got my clearance anyways. Since my job was technical a question might be how did I come to live with guys who were such putzes that they couldn't successfully firebomb a building. From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Oct 24 18:09:09 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 13:09:09 -0500 Subject: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting In-Reply-To: <7a698243-959a-3a6f-65f0-6e642113a79c@wisc.edu> References: <7a698243-959a-3a6f-65f0-6e642113a79c@wisc.edu> Message-ID: Spike, no, schizophrenia is not illegal, but records are kept as to who has been admitted to mental institutions. Schizophrenia of any kind is permanent. Psychiatrists and psychologists have a legal duty to report dangerous people to the police, and no, this does not violate client privacy. As for OCD, I don't know of any condition for which there is safe, effective treatment. But then I am not exactly up on the clinical area. Some people do get better - some get worse - some don't change. That's the typical result of studying the effects of psych treatment after three months. Followup studies a year later are even more depressing. bill w On Sun, Oct 24, 2021 at 12:16 PM Bill Hibbard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Spike wrote: > > Every time I went into a periodic security interview I > > would tell everything: I don?t know all these people or > > where they are from, some might be schizophrenic or > > criminals or even commies. I was open and up front, they > > never pulled my clearance for being friends with you. > > I can relate. In 1971 I needed a secret clearance and told > them, "On two occasions I have had roommates who were > convicted of attempting to firebomb military buildings." > The lady said, "Oh my," but I got my clearance anyways. > Since my job was technical a question might be how did I > come to live with guys who were such putzes that they > couldn't successfully firebomb a > building._______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Oct 24 18:46:02 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 11:46:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting In-Reply-To: References: <7a698243-959a-3a6f-65f0-6e642113a79c@wisc.edu> Message-ID: <003901d7c907$658a5e80$309f1b80$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting >?Spike, no, schizophrenia is not illegal, but records are kept as to who has been admitted to mental institutions. Schizophrenia of any kind is permanent? Oh boy, Billw, this answer brings up all manner of new and interesting questions. I do appreciate your comment, which it does strongly reinforce the notion that one should never ever willingly go to a mental health professional, regardless of need, for it could result in a permanent record which would follow the patient forever, with definite risk of harming the patient. This appears to me to be in violation of the first sentence in the Hippocratic oath. But that oath doesn?t apply to all mental health professionals. Furthermore?it?s a classic Catch-22. If one resists being admitted for psychiatric care for paranoia, that would demonstrate sanity, for it would be a perfectly justified resistance. To voluntarily admit oneself for psychological care then would be potentially self-destructive and insane. But to resist would demonstrates sanity, proving that such care isn?t needed, for the patient or client is sane. The mind boggles. >? Psychiatrists and psychologists have a legal duty to report dangerous people to the police, and no, this does not violate client privacy? This too brings up a new and interesting question, because there may be people who are giving some form of psychological care without all the proper credentials, which is legal if it isn?t medical care. What if one has a bachelor of arts with minor in psychology? And what if? a minister judges the? client (? (patient? parishioner? (sinner? (infidel?)))) as being dangerous because she does not believe Noah?s ark was literal and real, reports the flaming heretic to the police as being dangerous (to his belief system (threatens his safe space)) and then what? Is there a particular credential or license required to be legally qualified to decide if someone is dangerous? Or if I judge my neighbor is dangerous because she is out stumping for Bernie Sanders, can I report her with just an engineering degree since I took a class in psychology? What if she is not really dangerous but clearly has something seriously wrong, such as agoraphobia? This has become common with the covid nightmare. I am not kidding, I have a neighbor across the fence who has not been seen outdoors since March 2020, but I know she is alive because I see her silhouette on the shade and I know the difference between her shadow and her husband?s. What if I suspect she is voting by mail while being whatever she is? Billw, can agoraphobia be induced by quarantines? I think they can and I think they did in some people. >?As for OCD, I don't know of any condition for which there is safe, effective treatment? bill w Nor do I, but I believe such a thing exists and that some people use it effectively. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Oct 24 19:15:52 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 14:15:52 -0500 Subject: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting In-Reply-To: <003901d7c907$658a5e80$309f1b80$@rainier66.com> References: <7a698243-959a-3a6f-65f0-6e642113a79c@wisc.edu> <003901d7c907$658a5e80$309f1b80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: In some states clinical psychologists can testify before a judge as to the necessity of putting someone in a mental facility, not necessarily a hospital. Psychiatrists are in charge in every state. You have reached my limit of understanding of the legal implications of mental disorders. Some people benefit from yoga, various diets, meditation, various legal and illegal chemicals, and so on. But talking cures, now popular: cognitive behavior therapy - have the best track record outside of pills, but it's still fairly low and doesn't apply to any serious disorders like manic depression or schizophrenia. We don't understand those any better than we did when I gave up on clinical psych in 1967. You might try Henry for current information. He must have a license and know far more than I do. bill w On Sun, Oct 24, 2021 at 1:48 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting > > > > >?Spike, no, schizophrenia is not illegal, but records are kept as to who > has been admitted to mental institutions. Schizophrenia of any kind is > permanent? > > > > Oh boy, Billw, this answer brings up all manner of new and interesting > questions. I do appreciate your comment, which it does strongly reinforce > the notion that one should never ever willingly go to a mental health > professional, regardless of need, for it could result in a permanent record > which would follow the patient forever, with definite risk of harming the > patient. This appears to me to be in violation of the first sentence in > the Hippocratic oath. But that oath doesn?t apply to all mental health > professionals. > > > > Furthermore?it?s a classic Catch-22. If one resists being admitted for > psychiatric care for paranoia, that would demonstrate sanity, for it would > be a perfectly justified resistance. To voluntarily admit oneself for > psychological care then would be potentially self-destructive and insane. > But to resist would demonstrates sanity, proving that such care isn?t > needed, for the patient or client is sane. The mind boggles. > > > > >? Psychiatrists and psychologists have a legal duty to report dangerous > people to the police, and no, this does not violate client privacy? > > > > This too brings up a new and interesting question, because there may be > people who are giving some form of psychological care without all the > proper credentials, which is legal if it isn?t medical care. What if one > has a bachelor of arts with minor in psychology? And what if? a minister > judges the? client (? (patient? parishioner? (sinner? (infidel?)))) as > being dangerous because she does not believe Noah?s ark was literal and > real, reports the flaming heretic to the police as being dangerous (to his > belief system (threatens his safe space)) and then what? Is there a > particular credential or license required to be legally qualified to decide > if someone is dangerous? Or if I judge my neighbor is dangerous because > she is out stumping for Bernie Sanders, can I report her with just an > engineering degree since I took a class in psychology? > > > > What if she is not really dangerous but clearly has something seriously > wrong, such as agoraphobia? This has become common with the covid > nightmare. I am not kidding, I have a neighbor across the fence who has > not been seen outdoors since March 2020, but I know she is alive because I > see her silhouette on the shade and I know the difference between her > shadow and her husband?s. What if I suspect she is voting by mail while > being whatever she is? > > > > Billw, can agoraphobia be induced by quarantines? I think they can and I > think they did in some people. > > > > > > > > >?As for OCD, I don't know of any condition for which there is safe, > effective treatment? bill w > > > > Nor do I, but I believe such a thing exists and that some people use it > effectively. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sun Oct 24 19:30:54 2021 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 12:30:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting In-Reply-To: <00ad01d7c8f8$3fd53160$bf7f9420$@rainier66.com> References: <00ad01d7c8f8$3fd53160$bf7f9420$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <485EF29A-A914-4D6B-A007-F5CA096962A7@gmail.com> On Oct 24, 2021, at 9:59 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting > > > > >? But the NRA has opposed such things as background checks, like at gun shows, which would filter out criminals and paranoid schizophrenics. How could a right wing org. do that? No sense. ? > > bill w > > Billw the background checks would catch criminals but not paranoid schizophrenics, for there is no way (that I know of) to be convicted of paranoid schizophrenia. Being a psychologist, you would recognize it, but it isn?t illegal to be in that state of mind, which is good, because if so, you as a professional would be obligated to report your patients you diagnosed as such, at which time they would? what? Be imprisoned? Or only imprisoned if they attempt to vote while being schizophrenic? And what about states which allow ex-convicts to vote? Would those states also allow ex-schizophrenics to vote? How do schizophrenics prove they have served their time as schizophrenic and are not that way anymore? > Regarding the law, again, google is your friend: https://www.ncsl.org/research/civil-and-criminal-justice/possession-of-a-firearm-by-the-mentally-ill.aspx And see also: https://giffords.org/lawcenter/gun-laws/policy-areas/background-checks/mental-health-reporting/ In fact, this has lead some libertarians to argue that the mentally ill ? who are far more likely to be shot read by cops ? should be armed: https://c4ss.org/content/39669 [big snip of stuff on security clearances jury to make this a bit more comcide] Regards, Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Oct 24 19:36:26 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 12:36:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting In-Reply-To: References: <7a698243-959a-3a6f-65f0-6e642113a79c@wisc.edu> <003901d7c907$658a5e80$309f1b80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004e01d7c90e$6f99e240$4ecda6c0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting >?In some states clinical psychologists can testify before a judge as to the necessity of putting someone in a mental facility, not necessarily a hospital. Psychiatrists are in charge in every state? bill w Ja, it is a reason to go to California if one needs mental health care: the patients have a lotta rights there. I don?t claim to know all the answers, but it should never be illegal to be mentally ill. Yuckadoodles will observe the reason California is that way is because we don?t allow convicted criminals to vote but we do allow the crazies. I see no way to do otherwise. One can be convicted of a crime, but to convict someone of being mentally disturbed I would think would also have the right to a jury trial. OK imagine a jury of peers for one accused of crazy. I will tell ya right up front: I would vote the accused innocent in every case, and would let the others know right up front why I am doing it: sure I knows crazy when I sees it, but I can?t defines it. It isn?t law. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sun Oct 24 20:36:57 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2021 07:36:57 +1100 Subject: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting In-Reply-To: <20211024061735.Horde.5ZmEnf94BaeAIkAB8bGxA5Z@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20211024061735.Horde.5ZmEnf94BaeAIkAB8bGxA5Z@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 at 00:18, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Another important question is why were there live rounds on a movie > set the first place? If people think they need a loaded gun in their home at all times, why not also on a movie set? Social media has been big with the comparison to > Brandon Lee's shooting on the set of the Crow. But in that case, it > was a full-charge blank that dislodged a bullet stuck in the gun from > a previous misfire. > > For comparison, here is an excellent documentary about the bizarre > chain of circumstances that led to Lee's shooting. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-4oWpnuAOk > > If the Halyna Hutchins case does not contain a similarly strange > string of unlikely events so as diffuse blame and negligence over so > many people as to make indictment impossible, then SOMEONE ought to be > charged with a crime. > > Stuart LaForge > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sun Oct 24 21:24:48 2021 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 14:24:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3D6217FA-C2DB-475B-A6C5-98C5226D87B1@gmail.com> On Oct 24, 2021, at 1:39 PM, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat wrote: >> On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 at 00:18, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote: >> Another important question is why were there live rounds on a movie >> set the first place? > > If people think they need a loaded gun in their home at all times, why not also on a movie set? Usually, when it?s a prop on a movie set, the likelihood of it being pointed at cast or crew and accidentally discharging are much higher. So a loaded gun that?s a prop should generally be a big deal. By the way, a postwar Polish film used loaded guns on the set and they actually fired real bullets. See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Generation I enjoyed the film and recommend it, though I like the directors later film Sewer (1957) better. Regards, Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sun Oct 24 21:43:01 2021 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 14:43:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting In-Reply-To: <00a601d7c8f5$aa62bfa0$ff283ee0$@rainier66.com> References: <00a601d7c8f5$aa62bfa0$ff283ee0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <21E5EA08-A017-400E-A5F4-715578A94D70@gmail.com> On Oct 24, 2021, at 9:40 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > ?> On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat > ? > > >>?In 2021, actor Baldwin killed more people than all 5 million dues-paying NRA > members combined. > > >? Having a gun around at all ? whether you?re a member of the NRA or not ? is just makes it a lot more likely (as in possible at all) someone will be accidentally killed by said gun, no? > > By using the term ?someone? equates the good guy with the bad guy with the suicide. I was responding to your post. See the phrasing you used above. In your attempt to sloganeer, you didn?t make any difference between accidental and intentional killing or add in any other distinctions. So that?s on you. For the record, Baldwin accidentally killed on person and injured another on the set. NRA members have killed far more than one person accidentally or intentionally ? and that?s not including suicides. Yeah, this doesn?t tell us much as we?d have to compare things like the base raid of accidental gun shootings (as well as intentional ones, both suicides and others) by NRA members and by the general population to make any sense here. Even then, what is the point? > Those are three different things, and two of those terms are opposites. If the good guy kills the bad guy, it prevents her from ever killing someone else, so that saves lives. Suicide with one?s own gun, well? my personal belief is that my life is mine and I have the right to do with it as I will. So that too is different and not comparable. Often statistics are distorted by mixing those three things. People have broken down the stats. Not all NRA members have used guns wisely. In other words, they have NOT all avoided accidental or intentional killings that aren?t justified. So, your original slogan doesn?t hold. Anyhow, common sense and tiny knowledge of statistics ? both of which you have but seem to have not used here ? should have lead you not to repeat the slogan above (yeah, others online made the same claim almost before the gun stopped smoking). Five million people are likely, despite gun safety training and whatever else goes on with their membership contained it?s share of folks who either mishandled a firearm or who used one in a malicious way with resulting injury or death. In fact, if their membership didn?t have its share of those, I?d seriously there was something weird about NRA members ? over and above the ?normal? stuff I?d expect from any Right wing group. > >?I recall a report of an NRA accidentally shooting himself (though not to death) from a few years ago: > > https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/article143476929.html > > Ja, accidental self-shootings occasionally happen. They are rare. Far more rare if the self-victim has taken the excellent NRA safety course, which they offer free. Read the article. The victim was involved in a gun safety course when it happened. > >?And here?s an NRA member convicted of killing someone: > > >?Dan > > https://vpc.org/press/vpc-identifies-over-500-concealed-carry-killers-including-an-nra-lifetime-member/ > > Ja road rage happens. Again, your original comment was about killings ? about NRA members killing less people than (the 1) Baldwin killed. Well, that?s simply not so. > I don?t think actor Baldwin did that however, even given his reputation for everything-rage not just the common road variety. I think the tragedy was an accident probably, although I am still at a loss to understand why there were live (non-blank) rounds on the set at all. That sounds to me like either an astonishing violation of safety protocol (most likely) or possibly an act of criminal malice, but the latter really stretches the imagination. > > I heard they had three accidental discharges of real ammo on that one movie project alone. That just boggles my mind they were still making that film after the first two incidents or even after the first one. I could vaguely imagine some disgruntled miscreant loading prop pistols with live rounds in an attempt to wreck the project because of personal disputes with management, but not to intentionally kill someone. In this particular case, there was known severe animosity between management and labor. > > Dan regarding the safety of having a personal gun or the safety value of legal concealed carry, the factor that messes up the statistics is that there is no good way to quantize the condition of the neighborhood in which one lives. In some areas, it really is a lot safer to be (legally) armed than to not be, but there are not many places like that and I would speculate that no one here is likely to live in any of them. If so, I do urge you to move out, forthwith. Most places are plenty safe, you don?t need to pack around that extra weight. I agree about the safety issues on the set. It seems like it was lax ? and the mainstream media hasn?t been lax in reporting that. If anything, they?ve piled on Baldwin, even dredging his past problems ? ones that have little to do, IMO, with the set or the incident. (A close friend opines that this is because Baldwin isn?t well liked for his support of Woody Allen in the later?s sex scandal. I dunno. I think it?s more the usual thing the media do when an incident happens like this, especially with a non-cop.) Regards, Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Oct 24 21:55:08 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 14:55:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting In-Reply-To: References: <20211024061735.Horde.5ZmEnf94BaeAIkAB8bGxA5Z@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <003601d7c921$cfb94bd0$6f2be370$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 at 00:18, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat > wrote: Another important question is why were there live rounds on a movie set the first place? >?If people think they need a loaded gun in their home at all times, why not also on a movie set? Stathis Because a movie set is where you work in the day, not where you sleep at night. The kinds of things people have guns for happen at night. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Oct 24 22:09:37 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 15:09:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting In-Reply-To: <21E5EA08-A017-400E-A5F4-715578A94D70@gmail.com> References: <00a601d7c8f5$aa62bfa0$ff283ee0$@rainier66.com> <21E5EA08-A017-400E-A5F4-715578A94D70@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004501d7c923$d612beb0$82383c10$@rainier66.com> ?.> On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat >? In fact, if their membership didn?t have its share of those, I?d seriously there was something weird about NRA members ? over and above the ?normal? stuff I?d expect from any Right wing group? Dan by identifying the NRA as a right-wing group when its clearly-defined goal is to protect gun rights, equates rights-wing with right wing. That implies that left wing is anti-rights wing. The 2nd amendment is a right, which predated the US Constitution and government. It is not subject to negotiations or re-thinking. The US right wing does not own civil rights. >? (A close friend opines that this is because Baldwin isn?t well liked for his support of Woody Allen in the later?s sex scandal. ?Regards, Dan That?s the first I ever heard that the Woodster had a sex scandal. Was that something about he married is niece or something? I heard she wasn?t a genetic relative, and besides that, Woody?s comedy schtick was really all about his sexual dysfunction, so I wouldn?ta followed that anyway. The reason why there is burning animosity toward Baldwin is because of his Twitter commentary against the NRA and his comment that the 2nd amendment was a law that should be rethought. Rights are not laws. They pre-date law. Rights are not negotiable, which is why the Constitution has those right up front, not as permissions but as acknowledgment of rights. It is dangerous indeed to imply that the Bill of Rights can be rethought or legally infringed. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Sun Oct 24 22:20:46 2021 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 18:20:46 -0400 Subject: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting In-Reply-To: References: <20211024061735.Horde.5ZmEnf94BaeAIkAB8bGxA5Z@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: If anyone on that set was someone who took the responsibility of carrying a firearm safely, none of this would have happened. As mentioned here, and many other places: - All firearms should be treated as loaded - Never point the barrel at anything you don't intend to kill or destroy - Never have your finger on the trigger unless you intend to kill or destroy You're throwing up a strawman here... On Sun, Oct 24, 2021 at 4:38 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 at 00:18, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Another important question is why were there live rounds on a movie >> set the first place? > > > If people think they need a loaded gun in their home at all times, why not > also on a movie set? > > Social media has been big with the comparison to >> Brandon Lee's shooting on the set of the Crow. But in that case, it >> was a full-charge blank that dislodged a bullet stuck in the gun from >> a previous misfire. >> >> For comparison, here is an excellent documentary about the bizarre >> chain of circumstances that led to Lee's shooting. >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-4oWpnuAOk >> >> If the Halyna Hutchins case does not contain a similarly strange >> string of unlikely events so as diffuse blame and negligence over so >> many people as to make indictment impossible, then SOMEONE ought to be >> charged with a crime. >> >> Stuart LaForge >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sun Oct 24 22:22:31 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2021 09:22:31 +1100 Subject: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting In-Reply-To: <003601d7c921$cfb94bd0$6f2be370$@rainier66.com> References: <20211024061735.Horde.5ZmEnf94BaeAIkAB8bGxA5Z@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <003601d7c921$cfb94bd0$6f2be370$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 at 08:56, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting > > > > > > > > On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 at 00:18, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Another important question is why were there live rounds on a movie > set the first place? > > > > >?If people think they need a loaded gun in their home at all times, why > not also on a movie set? Stathis > > > > > > Because a movie set is where you work in the day, not where you sleep at > night. The kinds of things people have guns for happen at night. > If you are going by the evidence that the gun will make a positive difference to your health and safety, what would you suggest is the right thing to do if the evidence shows that you or a family member are more likely to die if you have a gun at home? > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Sun Oct 24 22:32:58 2021 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 18:32:58 -0400 Subject: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <736A5CAF-9782-4CA1-9269-DD36FBE49E7E@alumni.virginia.edu> There are effective medication treatments and psychotherapies for OCD. It is treatable. Spike, the practice of medicine regulated by license as is the practicing of psychology and social work. ?Counseling? is regulated to some degree. Call yourself a Life Coach however and you can coach away unregulated. -Henry > On Oct 24, 2021, at 2:09 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > Spike, no, schizophrenia is not illegal, but records are kept as to who has been admitted to mental institutions. Schizophrenia of any kind is permanent. Psychiatrists and psychologists have a legal duty to report dangerous people to the police, and no, this does not violate client privacy. > > As for OCD, I don't know of any condition for which there is safe, effective treatment. But then I am not exactly up on the clinical area. Some people do get better - some get worse - some don't change. That's the typical result of studying the effects of psych treatment after three months. Followup studies a year later are even more depressing. bill w > >> On Sun, Oct 24, 2021 at 12:16 PM Bill Hibbard via extropy-chat wrote: >> Spike wrote: >> > Every time I went into a periodic security interview I >> > would tell everything: I don?t know all these people or >> > where they are from, some might be schizophrenic or >> > criminals or even commies. I was open and up front, they >> > never pulled my clearance for being friends with you. >> >> I can relate. In 1971 I needed a secret clearance and told >> them, "On two occasions I have had roommates who were >> convicted of attempting to firebomb military buildings." >> The lady said, "Oh my," but I got my clearance anyways. >> Since my job was technical a question might be how did I >> come to live with guys who were such putzes that they >> couldn't successfully firebomb a building._______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Oct 24 22:47:54 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 17:47:54 -0500 Subject: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting In-Reply-To: <004e01d7c90e$6f99e240$4ecda6c0$@rainier66.com> References: <7a698243-959a-3a6f-65f0-6e642113a79c@wisc.edu> <003901d7c907$658a5e80$309f1b80$@rainier66.com> <004e01d7c90e$6f99e240$4ecda6c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, just where did you get the idea that in some places being mentally ill is illegal? It makes no sense at all. bill w On Sun, Oct 24, 2021 at 2:38 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting > > > > >?In some states clinical psychologists can testify before a judge as to > the necessity of putting someone in a mental facility, not necessarily a > hospital. Psychiatrists are in charge in every state? bill w > > > > > > > > Ja, it is a reason to go to California if one needs mental health care: > the patients have a lotta rights there. I don?t claim to know all the > answers, but it should never be illegal to be mentally ill. Yuckadoodles > will observe the reason California is that way is because we don?t allow > convicted criminals to vote but we do allow the crazies. > > > > I see no way to do otherwise. One can be convicted of a crime, but to > convict someone of being mentally disturbed I would think would also have > the right to a jury trial. OK imagine a jury of peers for one accused of > crazy. I will tell ya right up front: I would vote the accused innocent in > every case, and would let the others know right up front why I am doing it: > sure I knows crazy when I sees it, but I can?t defines it. It isn?t law. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Oct 24 22:54:56 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 15:54:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting In-Reply-To: References: <20211024061735.Horde.5ZmEnf94BaeAIkAB8bGxA5Z@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <003601d7c921$cfb94bd0$6f2be370$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006501d7c92a$2a852fe0$7f8f8fa0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat >?If you are going by the evidence that the gun will make a positive difference to your health and safety, what would you suggest is the right thing to do if the evidence shows that you or a family member are more likely to die if you have a gun at home? -- Stathis Papaioannou Stathis, if one believes that one is safer without a gun, then don?t have one. Otherwise, have one. That is simple enough. I can carry that a bit further. If one is sneaking around on one?s bride, best to not have one. If either spouse has an explosive temper, best to not. If anyone in the family has suicidal tendencies: best to not to. If none of those, and if all members of the family have reviewed and understand the NRA materials, if the household contains members of the militia, then best to have one. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Oct 24 23:04:34 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 18:04:34 -0500 Subject: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting In-Reply-To: <006501d7c92a$2a852fe0$7f8f8fa0$@rainier66.com> References: <20211024061735.Horde.5ZmEnf94BaeAIkAB8bGxA5Z@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <003601d7c921$cfb94bd0$6f2be370$@rainier66.com> <006501d7c92a$2a852fe0$7f8f8fa0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Or keep one, but not in the car! Some time ago I was depressed and highly susceptible to road rage ( a lot of depression is anger). I thought of keeping my pistol in the car so I could shoot someone's tires out. Yes, I did get that angry. But I knew that if I had a gun in the car I just might use it. So I never put it in there. And I think that I have conquered my road rage. My Jewish friend thought all Anglo-Saxons were nuts and very dangerous. I read a story about two local women going at it on the interstate. They pulled off the road and one woman walked up to the other's car and was shot in the face and killed by the woman in the car. Prison. Guns and anger just don't go together. bill w On Sun, Oct 24, 2021 at 5:57 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > > >?If you are going by the evidence that the gun will make a positive > difference to your health and safety, what would you suggest is the right > thing to do if the evidence shows that you or a family member are more > likely to die if you have a gun at home? > > -- > > Stathis Papaioannou > > > > > > Stathis, if one believes that one is safer without a gun, then don?t have > one. Otherwise, have one. That is simple enough. > > > > I can carry that a bit further. If one is sneaking around on one?s bride, > best to not have one. If either spouse has an explosive temper, best to > not. If anyone in the family has suicidal tendencies: best to not to. If > none of those, and if all members of the family have reviewed and > understand the NRA materials, if the household contains members of the > militia, then best to have one. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sun Oct 24 23:04:49 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2021 10:04:49 +1100 Subject: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting In-Reply-To: <004501d7c923$d612beb0$82383c10$@rainier66.com> References: <00a601d7c8f5$aa62bfa0$ff283ee0$@rainier66.com> <21E5EA08-A017-400E-A5F4-715578A94D70@gmail.com> <004501d7c923$d612beb0$82383c10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 at 09:10, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?.*> *On Behalf Of *Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat > > *>?* In fact, if their membership didn?t have its share of those, I?d > seriously there was something weird about NRA members ? over and above the > ?normal? stuff I?d expect from any Right wing group? > > > > Dan by identifying the NRA as a right-wing group when its clearly-defined > goal is to protect gun rights, equates rights-wing with right wing. That > implies that left wing is anti-rights wing. The 2nd amendment is a > right, which predated the US Constitution and government. It is not > subject to negotiations or re-thinking. The US right wing does not own > civil rights. > > > > > >? (A close friend opines that this is because Baldwin isn?t well liked > for his support of Woody Allen in the later?s sex scandal. ?Regards, Dan > > > > That?s the first I ever heard that the Woodster had a sex scandal. Was > that something about he married is niece or something? I heard she wasn?t > a genetic relative, and besides that, Woody?s comedy schtick was really all > about his sexual dysfunction, so I wouldn?ta followed that anyway. > > > > The reason why there is burning animosity toward Baldwin is because of his > Twitter commentary against the NRA and his comment that the 2nd amendment > was a law that should be rethought. Rights are not laws. They pre-date > law. Rights are not negotiable, which is why the Constitution has those > right up front, not as permissions but as acknowledgment of rights. > > > > It is dangerous indeed to imply that the Bill of Rights can be rethought > or legally infringed. > You do realise that ?rights? are human inventions, just like laws and morals are? > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Oct 24 23:05:27 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 16:05:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting In-Reply-To: References: <7a698243-959a-3a6f-65f0-6e642113a79c@wisc.edu> <003901d7c907$658a5e80$309f1b80$@rainier66.com> <004e01d7c90e$6f99e240$4ecda6c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007401d7c92b$a2932d10$e7b98730$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2021 3:48 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: Re: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting >?Spike, just where did you get the idea that in some places being mentally ill is illegal? It makes no sense at all. bill w In California there is a drive to make it illegal for mentally ill people to own a gun. If so, that equates being mentally ill with being convicted of a crime, for we do not allow criminals to own a gun. If being judged (by some means) to be mentally ill results in loss of gun rights, it should also cause the mentally ill to lose voting rights, as felons may not vote from prison. If one can finish a prison term but cannot finish a mental illness term, then it appears to me as though a mental illness diagnosis should result in loss of gun rights and voting rights forever. This becomes a political hot potato when we note that in California, one can lose gun rights if one is addicted to some drugs, even if the addicted person has not committed an actual crime (other than the drug use (which isn?t necessarily illegal in itself (drinking bottles of over-the-counter cough syrup for instance.))) OK then. What if we decide that anyone who loses gun rights for any reason also loses voting rights? Are we ready to go there? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Oct 24 23:28:49 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 18:28:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting In-Reply-To: <007401d7c92b$a2932d10$e7b98730$@rainier66.com> References: <7a698243-959a-3a6f-65f0-6e642113a79c@wisc.edu> <003901d7c907$658a5e80$309f1b80$@rainier66.com> <004e01d7c90e$6f99e240$4ecda6c0$@rainier66.com> <007401d7c92b$a2932d10$e7b98730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Just tickling the back of my mind: I read where having a record of having been in a mental facility is worse than having a criminal history. Try getting a job, for instance. Who would you be more likely to hire (assuming both probabilities are non zero): a criminal or one with a mental illness? No problem at all for me: the mentally ill guy, assuming he left with a diagnosis of 'in remission'. Still, though not all that safe: the most likely reason for a return to the mental hospital is not taking the pills. It's a bad idea. Reliability of diagnosis for severe mental disorders is poor. I sat in a group that was making diagnoses for the latest patients to be admitted. For one man the diagnosis ranged from psychotic to normal! I admit that that had to be a very rare event. bill w On Sun, Oct 24, 2021 at 6:16 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Sunday, October 24, 2021 3:48 PM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting > > > > >?Spike, just where did you get the idea that in some places being > mentally ill is illegal? It makes no sense at all. bill w > > > > > > In California there is a drive to make it illegal for mentally ill people > to own a gun. If so, that equates being mentally ill with being convicted > of a crime, for we do not allow criminals to own a gun. > > > > If being judged (by some means) to be mentally ill results in loss of gun > rights, it should also cause the mentally ill to lose voting rights, as > felons may not vote from prison. If one can finish a prison term but > cannot finish a mental illness term, then it appears to me as though a > mental illness diagnosis should result in loss of gun rights and voting > rights forever. > > > > This becomes a political hot potato when we note that in California, one > can lose gun rights if one is addicted to some drugs, even if the addicted > person has not committed an actual crime (other than the drug use (which > isn?t necessarily illegal in itself (drinking bottles of over-the-counter > cough syrup for instance.))) > > > > OK then. What if we decide that anyone who loses gun rights for any > reason also loses voting rights? Are we ready to go there? > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Oct 24 23:29:03 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 16:29:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting In-Reply-To: References: <00a601d7c8f5$aa62bfa0$ff283ee0$@rainier66.com> <21E5EA08-A017-400E-A5F4-715578A94D70@gmail.com> <004501d7c923$d612beb0$82383c10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001f01d7c92e$eee01360$cca03a20$@rainier66.com> ? On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2021 4:05 PM right up front, not as permissions but as acknowledgment of rights. >>?It is dangerous indeed to imply that the Bill of Rights can be rethought or legally infringed. >?You do realise that ?rights? are human inventions, just like laws and morals are? -- Stathis Papaioannou Ja, I consider rights to be humanity?s third greatest invention, right behind fire and sex. Granted there are those who argue those first two are sufficiently similar to count as one, so human rights move into second place. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Oct 24 23:32:58 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 16:32:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting In-Reply-To: References: <20211024061735.Horde.5ZmEnf94BaeAIkAB8bGxA5Z@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <003601d7c921$cfb94bd0$6f2be370$@rainier66.com> <006501d7c92a$2a852fe0$7f8f8fa0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002e01d7c92f$7a7b0f10$6f712d30$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting >?Or keep one, but not in the car! ? Guns and anger just don't go together. bill w I agree, but not for that reason. Carrying a gun in the car gives the bad guy too much motive to break your windows to get to it, since she cannot buy guns. It is now your best bet to clean everything out of your car, then leave it parked with the windows down. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Oct 25 00:04:03 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2021 11:04:03 +1100 Subject: [ExI] question not being asked in Alec Baldwin shooting In-Reply-To: <001f01d7c92e$eee01360$cca03a20$@rainier66.com> References: <00a601d7c8f5$aa62bfa0$ff283ee0$@rainier66.com> <21E5EA08-A017-400E-A5F4-715578A94D70@gmail.com> <004501d7c923$d612beb0$82383c10$@rainier66.com> <001f01d7c92e$eee01360$cca03a20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 at 10:35, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?* *On Behalf Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Sunday, October 24, 2021 4:05 PM > > right up front, not as permissions but as acknowledgment of rights. > > >>?It is dangerous indeed to imply that the Bill of Rights can be > rethought or legally infringed. > > > > >?You do realise that ?rights? are human inventions, just like laws and > morals are? > > -- > > Stathis Papaioannou > > > > > > Ja, I consider rights to be humanity?s third greatest invention, right > behind fire and sex. Granted there are those who argue those first two are > sufficiently similar to count as one, so human rights move into second > place. > At one point humans decided that sex between people of the same gender deserved death by fire, but now many don't, because they no longer think it is a good idea. 1328 ? Paragraph 132 of the German Law Book for Town and Country calls for burning at the stake all lesbians and gay men (?those who mix with the same sex?). In practice, a milder sentence is at times meted out, especially to aristocrats: rapid execution (decapitation by sword) followed by burning. In most cases, all documents concerning the trial are also burned to expunge every trace of the deed, whose very mention is labeled sinful. Sodomy, a word not to be uttered among Christian folk, is linked with heresy. https://www.gsafewi.org/wp-content/uploads/German-Timeline-Student-Teacher-Copy-UPDATED.pdf This demonstrates that what is invented by humans can be changed by humans; unlike the number of sides on a triangle, or the mass of the proton, which weren't invented by humans and so can't be changed by humans. -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Mon Oct 25 05:11:07 2021 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 22:11:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] quora answer Message-ID: <20211024221107.Horde.sfL0t2rKPCmB39yvRGmk65B@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting bill w: > Yeah, it's a very rosy answer in some regards but a few really good points > are made. bill w Where precisely? > China does not behave like a typical dictatorship and seems to be a lot > more calculating and smarter than existing democracies. What could be the > reason behind this? > > > China has a unique political system never before seen in human history. > It?s an amalgam of authoritarian rule and democracy firmly based on > meritocracy. > > The system serves the people, not the other way around. The system serves > at the pleasure of the people. If it doesn?t deliver the goods, the system > will be overthrown. This is Chinese democracy. Lol. Right, you mean like the Hundred Flowers Campaign or Tiananmen Square? How do you overthrow the system without guns? By voting from candidates who are all from the same party? Chinese democracy is an illusion of choice where there is none. > > This collectivist philosophy states that ?if you do right by me, I let you > rule.? > The individualist philosophy would ask why you do you feel the urge to be ruled? Are you a slave at heart? > Combined with a millennia-old meritocratic system, the Chinese enjoy a > responsive, stable, and efficient government. Enjoy? Seriously? The Chinese people lose social credits for criticizing their government, so of course they will always publically state they enjoy their government. Do you think the Uygher women raped in the Chinese reeducation camps enjoy their government? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-55794071 > Because it?s meritocratic, you don?t get imbeciles for national leaders > like Donald Trump, Justin Trudeau, Boris Johnson, Scott Morrison, Jair > Bolsonaro, etc. Right because the Chinese want smart leaders to rule them while Americans just want some guy to rubber-stamp the shit they need to do their jobs. Americans tolerate a central government for public goods, common defense, highways, schools. etc. The Chinese need one to give them national identity and a so-called collective to serve. It all fun and games until the white vans show up to take you away to be re-educated. > Because it?s meritocratic and authoritarian, you get intelligent, long-term > policies with no compromises. > Because it?s authoritarian, you get efficient execution of government > policies without interruption from partisan bickering and regular elections. Because it prizes conformity over individuality, it lacks creativity and thus must resort to IP-theft to advance technologically. > This system has worked exceedingly well for over 30 years. That?s why China > became the world?s largest economy in just 30 years, starting as a totally > impoverished nation! > That?s why China has the finest infrastructure of roads, bridges, > high-speed rail, airports, etc., the envy of the world! > > That?s why China practically eradicated extreme poverty. It was 90% in > 1980, and it?s nearly 0% today. A billion people were lifted out of poverty! I seem to remember what lifted China out of poverty was being granted favored nation status by Bill Clinton and a bunch of American companies moving their factories to China because labor there was cheaper. Basically what led to China's success was investment by American companies, at the cost of our own middle-class. I find China's lack of gratitude disturbing. > That?s why China enjoys over 90% satisfaction and support from the people! > (Western countries typically have less than 50% support.) Again, the adoration of an unarmed populace held hostage by a surveillance state monitoring it for social credits is as meaningless as a confession delivered under torture. Stockholm syndrome should never be mistaken for approval-ratings. > That?s why China accomplished all of this without warfare (because the > people don?t want war)! Contrast this with the United States, and Great > Britain before them, and France before them, and Spain before them, and > Rome before them. There is no doubt the United States is more war-like than China, but China also has a history of faring poorly against illiterate war-like barbarians, like the Mongols. > I can?t think of another country in history that has achieved near world > dominance, near total citizen support, and near global peacefulness. This is clearly some kind of CCP propaganda piece written by some fan boy. What part of it made you to forget history, Bill? Stuart LaForge From pharos at gmail.com Mon Oct 25 09:59:41 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2021 10:59:41 +0100 Subject: [ExI] quora answer In-Reply-To: <20211024221107.Horde.sfL0t2rKPCmB39yvRGmk65B@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20211024221107.Horde.sfL0t2rKPCmB39yvRGmk65B@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 at 06:13, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote: > > > This is clearly some kind of CCP propaganda piece written by some fan > boy. What part of it made you forget history, Bill? > > Stuart LaForge > _______________________________________________ Astro-turfing campaigns have destroyed the information content of social media. Disinformation campaigns mean that lies and propaganda will have millions of posts and supporting articles spread on social media and the internet. Not just China. Russia and western countries also use this system to gain support for their side. The sheer volume of disinformation is overwhelming. See: For China, see: There are also patriotic Chinese who join in the campaigns. Social media has become like a destructive cancer. BillK From pharos at gmail.com Mon Oct 25 11:01:23 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2021 12:01:23 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Does the Star Trek transporter kill people? Message-ID: Saturday, October 23, 2021 Does Captain Kirk die when he goes through the transporter? Quote: Does Captain Kirk die when he goes through the transporter? This question has kept me up at night for decades. I?m not kidding. And I still don?t have an answer. ------------------- This article and video (11 mins) discuss the problem. But the answer is still a matter of opinion. :) BillK From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Oct 25 11:14:18 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2021 22:14:18 +1100 Subject: [ExI] Does the Star Trek transporter kill people? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 at 22:03, BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Saturday, October 23, 2021 > Does Captain Kirk die when he goes through the transporter? > > < > https://backreaction.blogspot.com/2021/10/does-captain-kirk-die-when-he-goes.html > > > Quote: > Does Captain Kirk die when he goes through the transporter? This > question has kept me up at night for decades. I?m not kidding. And I > still don?t have an answer. > ------------------- > > This article and video (11 mins) discuss the problem. > But the answer is still a matter of opinion. :) This question used to be debated at great length in the old days of the list. The answer is, Kirk survives. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Oct 25 21:03:27 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2021 14:03:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] collective expertise pls Message-ID: <005401d7c9e3$c1c3e900$454bbb00$@rainier66.com> Does anyone here know what these are? We had a big wind storm last night and a bunch of them came down in one of the city trees. The squirrels were having a hey-minute with them. Squirrels do everything fast, so they don?t have time for a hey day. My reasoning is if they can devour them, I can devour them. But I hoped to check to see if we have an online hipster. They have a shiny smooth shell of sorts, rather than a skin like a fruit. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 27871 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Oct 25 21:28:17 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 08:28:17 +1100 Subject: [ExI] collective expertise pls In-Reply-To: <005401d7c9e3$c1c3e900$454bbb00$@rainier66.com> References: <005401d7c9e3$c1c3e900$454bbb00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Chestnuts? On Tue, 26 Oct 2021 at 08:05, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Does anyone here know what these are? > > > > > > We had a big wind storm last night and a bunch of them came down in one of > the city trees. The squirrels were having a hey-minute with them. > Squirrels do everything fast, so they don?t have time for a hey day. My > reasoning is if they can devour them, I can devour them. But I hoped to > check to see if we have an online hipster. > > > > They have a shiny smooth shell of sorts, rather than a skin like a fruit. > > > > spike > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 27871 bytes Desc: not available URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Oct 25 21:33:06 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2021 16:33:06 -0500 Subject: [ExI] collective expertise pls In-Reply-To: <005401d7c9e3$c1c3e900$454bbb00$@rainier66.com> References: <005401d7c9e3$c1c3e900$454bbb00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I have a tree which produces a similar nut, though smaller - buckeye. bill w On Mon, Oct 25, 2021 at 4:06 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Does anyone here know what these are? > > > > > > We had a big wind storm last night and a bunch of them came down in one of > the city trees. The squirrels were having a hey-minute with them. > Squirrels do everything fast, so they don?t have time for a hey day. My > reasoning is if they can devour them, I can devour them. But I hoped to > check to see if we have an online hipster. > > > > They have a shiny smooth shell of sorts, rather than a skin like a fruit. > > > > spike > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 27871 bytes Desc: not available URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon Oct 25 22:38:22 2021 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2021 15:38:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] collective expertise pls In-Reply-To: <005401d7c9e3$c1c3e900$454bbb00$@rainier66.com> References: <005401d7c9e3$c1c3e900$454bbb00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <8C7D1004-0CD3-4BE1-ABD7-D8C48AB1BBC8@gmail.com> Bogum or chestnut. They?re common throughout the world, I think. > On Oct 25, 2021, at 2:06 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > > Does anyone here know what these are? > > > > We had a big wind storm last night and a bunch of them came down in one of the city trees. The squirrels were having a hey-minute with them. Squirrels do everything fast, so they don?t have time for a hey day. My reasoning is if they can devour them, I can devour them. But I hoped to check to see if we have an online hipster. > > They have a shiny smooth shell of sorts, rather than a skin like a fruit. > > spike > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 27871 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pharos at gmail.com Mon Oct 25 22:48:22 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2021 23:48:22 +0100 Subject: [ExI] collective expertise pls In-Reply-To: <005401d7c9e3$c1c3e900$454bbb00$@rainier66.com> References: <005401d7c9e3$c1c3e900$454bbb00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: They look like Californian Buckeye nuts. If you do an image search for California Buckeye seed, some of the images look very similar. They seem to be poisonous unless cooked very carefully. BillK On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 at 22:07, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > Does anyone here know what these are? > > We had a big wind storm last night and a bunch of them came down in one of the city trees. The squirrels were having a hey-minute with them. Squirrels do everything fast, so they don?t have time for a hey day. My reasoning is if they can devour them, I can devour them. But I hoped to check to see if we have an online hipster. > > They have a shiny smooth shell of sorts, rather than a skin like a fruit. > > spike > _______________________________________________ From spike at rainier66.com Mon Oct 25 22:59:19 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2021 15:59:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] collective expertise pls In-Reply-To: References: <005401d7c9e3$c1c3e900$454bbb00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003501d7c9f3$f1a8dad0$d4fa9070$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] collective expertise pls >...They look like Californian Buckeye nuts. If you do an image search for California Buckeye seed, some of the images look very similar. They seem to be poisonous unless cooked very carefully. BillK Cool thx to all who responded: California buckeye, which is a form of chestnut but with high tannin levels which makes them slightly toxic. Found a site which explains how to leach away the toxins, but they advise don't bother, it's a lot of fuss and the end result tastes like ass. Ah, OK then. The irony: a guy from Britain identifies the fruit of a local tree on the west coast of the former colonies. The internet is such a marvelous thing. How fortunate we are to live in such times as these. spike From spike at rainier66.com Tue Oct 26 04:55:42 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2021 21:55:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] kasparov commientary Message-ID: <001c01d7ca25$bb2df170$3189d450$@rainier66.com> Not just because I am into chess but because this former world champion says so many interesting things in this interview, he held my attention for the entire hour and a half. It isn?t all, or even primarily about chess: Garry Kasparov: From Communism?s Last Chess Champion to Freedom Fighter ? Reason.com spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 26 13:01:16 2021 From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 13:01:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] collective expertise In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1793828739.2071825.1635253276139@mail.yahoo.com> That looks like some kind of chestnut, but you live in California so your trees are probably a bit different to the ones in England. I would advise you to ask neighbours or check against images of local chestnut species to identify if they are toxic or not (I live in an area full of horse chestnuts, which are toxic to humans). Also, peel carefully to see how hard they are and if your teeth can handle them. Depending on edibility, you may be able to have chestnuts roasting on an open fire, like that old Nat King Cole song. Alternatively, if they are inedible or just too tough, drill a hole in them, thread some twine through, knot at either side of the nut and you now have a conker. Make a second one, and find someone who enjoys destructive pastimes. Now takes turns swinging the nuts against each other until one breaks - you have joined the ancient sport of "Conkers". Tom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Oct 26 14:55:08 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 07:55:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] collective expertise In-Reply-To: <1793828739.2071825.1635253276139@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1793828739.2071825.1635253276139@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007801d7ca79$782f2c50$688d84f0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Tom Nowell via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] collective expertise That looks like some kind of chestnut, but you live in California so your trees are probably a bit different to the ones in England. I would advise you to ask neighbours or check against images of local chestnut species to identify if they are toxic or not (I live in an area full of horse chestnuts, which are toxic to humans). Also, peel carefully to see how hard they are and if your teeth can handle them. Depending on edibility, you may be able to have chestnuts roasting on an open fire, like that old Nat King Cole song. Alternatively, if they are inedible or just too tough, drill a hole in them, thread some twine through, knot at either side of the nut and you now have a conker. Make a second one, and find someone who enjoys destructive pastimes. Now takes turns swinging the nuts against each other until one breaks - you have joined the ancient sport of "Conkers". Tom TOM! This is brilliant, on multiple levels! We could organize conker tournaments, a conker championship and so forth. There is even a science or engineering related angle to the painful game. If one?s conker string is either too short or too long, the business end achieves insufficient velocity to shatter upon impact with the cranium of one?s opponent. There must be some optimum length and mass, but this optimuma would be a function of the konker wielder?s arm length, speed and strength perhaps. So each player would need to optimize a custom konker to most effectively crack either the nut or the goddam skull of her opponent. Regarding your reference to chestnuts and open fires, you brought back fond memories of a Christmas a decade ago when the old ones were still living. The three grandchildren, then aged 4, 5 and 6, were at a family gathering when the oldest of the three told the others that the ancient relatives were listening to songs, one of which contained a reference to a Christmas monster of some sort who devoured people?s faces. The 4 year old (my son) attempted to explain what he had heard, but I calmly assured him that there was no such song among the collection. As the whole gathering enjoyed a nice peaceful holiday evening, the three young amigos suddenly shrook. Today I shake, yesterday I shook, today I shriek, yesterday I shrook. They suddenly and perfectly simultaneously shrook and bolted from the room. My curiosity at what wretched demon had suddenly possessed the youth, I learned that this was the terrifying song. I returned to the main room to the gentle mellow lyrics of Nat King Cole. Most puzzling! I restarted that song, which beings: Chestnuts roasting on an open fire? Jack Frost nipping at your nose? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Oct 26 15:15:23 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 10:15:23 -0500 Subject: [ExI] collective expertise In-Reply-To: <007801d7ca79$782f2c50$688d84f0$@rainier66.com> References: <1793828739.2071825.1635253276139@mail.yahoo.com> <007801d7ca79$782f2c50$688d84f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: While living near Birmingham and tuning to the classical station, the announcer said that there were free tickets available to the Mel Torme concert for the first caller who got his nickname correct. My wife Roz (famous or infamous for 'six of one and one another', and 'she was as tall as she was short', and 'it can't help but hurt') thought she knew, so she called in 'The Velvet Frog'. The announcer was nonplussed (the answer is The Velvet Fog). He gave us the tickets. He sang the Christmas Song - which he co-wrote - in August. Most unusual voice. bill w On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 9:57 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Tom Nowell via extropy-chat > > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] collective expertise > > > > > > > > That looks like some kind of chestnut, but you live in California so your > trees are probably a bit different to the ones in England. I would advise > you to ask neighbours or check against images of local chestnut species to > identify if they are toxic or not (I live in an area full of horse > chestnuts, which are toxic to humans). Also, peel carefully to see how hard > they are and if your teeth can handle them. > > > > Depending on edibility, you may be able to have chestnuts roasting on an > open fire, like that old Nat King Cole song. Alternatively, if they are > inedible or just too tough, drill a hole in them, thread some twine > through, knot at either side of the nut and you now have a conker. Make a > second one, and find someone who enjoys destructive pastimes. Now takes > turns swinging the nuts against each other until one breaks - you have > joined the ancient sport of "Conkers". > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > TOM! > > > > This is brilliant, on multiple levels! We could organize conker > tournaments, a conker championship and so forth. > > > > There is even a science or engineering related angle to the painful game. > If one?s conker string is either too short or too long, the business end > achieves insufficient velocity to shatter upon impact with the cranium of > one?s opponent. There must be some optimum length and mass, but this > optimuma would be a function of the konker wielder?s arm length, speed and > strength perhaps. So each player would need to optimize a custom konker to > most effectively crack either the nut or the goddam skull of her opponent. > > > > Regarding your reference to chestnuts and open fires, you brought back > fond memories of a Christmas a decade ago when the old ones were still > living. The three grandchildren, then aged 4, 5 and 6, were at a family > gathering when the oldest of the three told the others that the ancient > relatives were listening to songs, one of which contained a reference to a > Christmas monster of some sort who devoured people?s faces. The 4 year old > (my son) attempted to explain what he had heard, but I calmly assured him > that there was no such song among the collection. > > > > As the whole gathering enjoyed a nice peaceful holiday evening, the three > young amigos suddenly shrook. Today I shake, yesterday I shook, today I > shriek, yesterday I shrook. They suddenly and perfectly simultaneously > shrook and bolted from the room. My curiosity at what wretched demon had > suddenly possessed the youth, I learned that this was the terrifying song. > I returned to the main room to the gentle mellow lyrics of Nat King Cole. > Most puzzling! I restarted that song, which beings: > > Chestnuts roasting on an open fire? Jack Frost nipping at your nose? > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Oct 26 18:20:24 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 13:20:24 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Rationality - Pinker Message-ID: As we would expect, this is a truly intelligent, well-written, and fairly complete book, which I cannot recommend to you. If you are versed in probability, including Bayes, correlation and causation, cognitive errors of some types (not complete because there are nearly 200 of them in Wikipedia), and formal logic, then most of the book will be a waste for you. I can recommend the last two chapters in which Pinker offers his view of modern society, science, the media, and so on. He is a superior synthesist. Maybe you could check it out of your library for just those two chapters. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Oct 26 21:20:08 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 16:20:08 -0500 Subject: [ExI] quora answer In-Reply-To: References: <20211024221107.Horde.sfL0t2rKPCmB39yvRGmk65B@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: Oh, I haven't forgotten any history, and the leaders of China are tyrants, and all that. Our own history, particularly in the 20 century, has truly awful wars and other things in it. China doesn't run around the world trying to change people with wars who are not going to change (((and killing tens of thousands of civilians (collateral damage) while killing one member of a radical group (for propaganda purposes), who is immediately replaced))). They hate us in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Iran etc. >From what I read China is doing good things, say in Africa, to win friends with help rather than with guns. You have to admit that they have made incredible progress since Mao in any economic indicator you chose. I am still unalterably opposed to authoritarian governments of any kind. Including actions of our own government. China is not totally the bad guys we think they are and neither are we totally the good guys we think we are. bill w On Mon, Oct 25, 2021 at 5:03 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 at 06:13, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > > > > This is clearly some kind of CCP propaganda piece written by some fan > > boy. What part of it made you forget history, Bill? > > > > Stuart LaForge > > _______________________________________________ > > > Astro-turfing campaigns have destroyed the information content of social > media. > Disinformation campaigns mean that lies and propaganda will have > millions of posts and supporting articles spread on social media and > the internet. Not just China. Russia and western countries also use > this system to gain support for their side. > The sheer volume of disinformation is overwhelming. > > See: > > For China, see: > > > There are also patriotic Chinese who join in the campaigns. > > > Social media has become like a destructive cancer. > > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Oct 26 21:52:44 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 08:52:44 +1100 Subject: [ExI] quora answer In-Reply-To: References: <20211024221107.Horde.sfL0t2rKPCmB39yvRGmk65B@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Oct 2021 at 08:21, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Oh, I haven't forgotten any history, and the leaders of China are tyrants, > and all that. Our own history, particularly in the 20 century, has truly > awful wars and other things in it. China doesn't run around the world > trying to change people with wars who are not going to change (((and > killing tens of thousands of civilians (collateral damage) while killing > one member of a radical group (for propaganda purposes), who is immediately > replaced))). They hate us in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Iran etc. > > From what I read China is doing good things, say in Africa, to win friends > with help rather than with guns. > > You have to admit that they have made incredible progress since Mao in any > economic indicator you chose. I am still unalterably opposed to > authoritarian governments of any kind. Including actions of our own > government. China is not totally the bad guys we think they are and > neither are we totally the good guys we think we are. bill w > People tend to be blind to their own system?s propaganda. On Mon, Oct 25, 2021 at 5:03 AM BillK via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 at 06:13, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat >> wrote: >> > >> >> > >> > This is clearly some kind of CCP propaganda piece written by some fan >> > boy. What part of it made you forget history, Bill? >> > >> > Stuart LaForge >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> >> Astro-turfing campaigns have destroyed the information content of social >> media. >> Disinformation campaigns mean that lies and propaganda will have >> millions of posts and supporting articles spread on social media and >> the internet. Not just China. Russia and western countries also use >> this system to gain support for their side. >> The sheer volume of disinformation is overwhelming. >> >> See: >> >> For China, see: >> >> >> There are also patriotic Chinese who join in the campaigns. >> >> >> Social media has become like a destructive cancer. >> >> >> BillK >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Oct 26 22:17:06 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 15:17:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] quora answer In-Reply-To: References: <20211024221107.Horde.sfL0t2rKPCmB39yvRGmk65B@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <003001d7cab7$362f62a0$a28e27e0$@rainier66.com> On Wed, 27 Oct 2021 at 08:21, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: ? >?From what I read China is doing good things, say in Africa, to win friends with help rather than with guns?. bill w Billw, China is currently colonizing Africa. Eventually China will own Africa. All of it. Note how they are dealing with the Uighurs. The Africans are the next on the list. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Wed Oct 27 13:04:17 2021 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 15:04:17 +0200 Subject: [ExI] My New Book on Transhumanism, Futurism, Prometheism Message-ID: Dear Friends, I am much more active on social networks than in mailing lists these days but I thought that those of you who have at least some passive command of written Italian might be interested in learning that after a few years I am now out with another book in print (and of course in downloadable bytes) regarding transhumanist technologies, and above all transhumanist ideas. The title is I sentieri della tecnica. Spirito faustiano, transumanismo, futurismo I offer above the amazon.it link, but of course it is equally accessible through your own local Amazon, and hopefully elsewhere. This is the summary: << *La "questione della tecnica", come discussa ad esempio da Heidegger, Gehlen e Spengler, resta la questione cruciale che interroga la peculiare storicit? della nostra specie, pi? in particolare della nostra cultura, e ancora pi? in particolare della nostra epoca. Ma nelle possibili svolte tecnologiche che si prospettano per il nostro futuro entra altrettanto in gioco quali saranno effettivamente realizzate, quando, come e da chi. Chi le controller? e per che scopi. Come pensare le trasformazioni che potrebbero comportare nel mondo, anche ai fini di quella mutazione postumana e prima ancora postumanista che ci viene additata da Nietzsche e Marinetti. Cosa rappresentano e comportano le forze e le idee che da sempre si oppongono a ci? che nei paradigmi contemporanei ? rappresentato da Icaro e da Prometeo, da Faust e da Mafarka. Atraverso una riflessione coerente sviluppata per decenni in studi e interviste, post ed articoli, l'autore disegna uno scenario che provoca il lettore a prendere posizione e a pensare sino in fondo le conseguenze di scelte che non possono essere pi? ignorate.*>> Enjoy! :-) -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john at ziaspace.com Wed Oct 27 18:36:46 2021 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 18:36:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] Extropy list web pages unavailable Message-ID: Hi, all, This is just to let you know that because of some issues in the updated version of the software that runs our mailing lists, the web interface won't be available for the next several hours, or possibly day or two. I'll post again when the issues have been resolved. Thanks! John From john at ziaspace.com Thu Oct 28 03:09:47 2021 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 03:09:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] Extropy list web pages unavailable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, everyone, The python / mailman issues have been fixed, and web access works again :) John From ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com Thu Oct 28 03:17:04 2021 From: ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com (ilsa) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 20:17:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Extropy list web pages unavailable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Gratitude, ilsa On Wed, Oct 27, 2021, 8:11 PM John Klos via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Hello, everyone, > > The python / mailman issues have been fixed, and web access works again :) > > John > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Oct 28 04:13:10 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 21:13:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Extropy list web pages unavailable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002901d7cbb2$1ed82d20$5c888760$@rainier66.com> ILSA! Where ya been? Long time no post? Hope all is well with yas. spike From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of ilsa via extropy-chat Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2021 8:17 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: ilsa Subject: Re: [ExI] Extropy list web pages unavailable Gratitude, ilsa On Wed, Oct 27, 2021, 8:11 PM John Klos via extropy-chat > wrote: Hello, everyone, The python / mailman issues have been fixed, and web access works again :) John _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tara at taramayastales.com Thu Oct 28 14:08:14 2021 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 07:08:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Rationality - Pinker In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1E037EDD-6684-4D5F-8F5D-B7D1502B706A@taramayastales.com> You might consider it as a gift for anyone under 35, since schools have failed to teach these basic things for at least that long. > On Oct 26, 2021, at 11:20 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > As we would expect, this is a truly intelligent, well-written, and fairly complete book, which I cannot recommend to you. > > If you are versed in probability, including Bayes, correlation and causation, cognitive errors of some types (not complete because there are nearly 200 of them in Wikipedia), and formal logic, then most of the book will be a waste for you. > > I can recommend the last two chapters in which Pinker offers his view of modern society, science, the media, and so on. He is a superior synthesist. Maybe you could check it out of your library for just those two chapters. bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Oct 28 14:33:07 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 09:33:07 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Rationality - Pinker In-Reply-To: <1E037EDD-6684-4D5F-8F5D-B7D1502B706A@taramayastales.com> References: <1E037EDD-6684-4D5F-8F5D-B7D1502B706A@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: OH yes, I am giving it away. I would love to see the course content for schools that offer some kind of critical thinking classes. What, indeed, are they teaching? My university went through a critical thinking program in which each discipline was supposed to incorporate it into their own curriculum. But did they? Or did they just forget about it after two weeks, which is the usual life of what changes occur after a seminar. bill On Thu, Oct 28, 2021 at 9:28 AM Tara Maya via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > You might consider it as a gift for anyone under 35, since schools have > failed to teach these basic things for at least that long. > > On Oct 26, 2021, at 11:20 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > As we would expect, this is a truly intelligent, well-written, and fairly > complete book, which I cannot recommend to you. > > If you are versed in probability, including Bayes, correlation and > causation, cognitive errors of some types (not complete because there are > nearly 200 of them in Wikipedia), and formal logic, then most of the book > will be a waste for you. > > I can recommend the last two chapters in which Pinker offers his view of > modern society, science, the media, and so on. He is a superior > synthesist. Maybe you could check it out of your library for just those two > chapters. bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Thu Oct 28 19:40:35 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 20:40:35 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Does the Star Trek transporter kill people? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1af2a209-5c1b-0bf4-6bd8-36df6f1c0147@zaiboc.net> On 25/10/2021 12:14, BillK quoted: > This > question has kept me up at night for decades. I?m not kidding. And I > still don?t have an answer. > But the answer is still a matter of opinion. The answer is No. It's only a matter of opinion if you believe in the supernatural. Otherwise, it's a matter of fact. As the saying goes, you're entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts. Ben From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Oct 28 19:44:24 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 14:44:24 -0500 Subject: [ExI] thriller Message-ID: WWII spy thriller involving Hemingway. Author Dan Simmons says 95% factual. He is well-known in scifi, horror. Just a terrific book, extremely well-researched. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Oct 29 00:47:48 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 17:47:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Does the Star Trek transporter kill people? In-Reply-To: <1af2a209-5c1b-0bf4-6bd8-36df6f1c0147@zaiboc.net> References: <1af2a209-5c1b-0bf4-6bd8-36df6f1c0147@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <008f01d7cc5e$98aaee10$ca00ca30$@rainier66.com> >... Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Does the Star Trek transporter kill people? >...The answer is No. ... Ben _______________________________________________ Cool so if Kirk beams down with a big steaming pizza in his hand, it isn't considered wasting food. spike From stathisp at gmail.com Fri Oct 29 00:57:01 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 11:57:01 +1100 Subject: [ExI] Does the Star Trek transporter kill people? In-Reply-To: <1af2a209-5c1b-0bf4-6bd8-36df6f1c0147@zaiboc.net> References: <1af2a209-5c1b-0bf4-6bd8-36df6f1c0147@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Oct 2021 at 06:42, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 25/10/2021 12:14, BillK quoted: > > This > > question has kept me up at night for decades. I?m not kidding. And I > > still don?t have an answer. > > > But the answer is still a matter of opinion. > > > The answer is No. > > It's only a matter of opinion if you believe in the supernatural. > Otherwise, it's a matter of fact. > > As the saying goes, you're entitled to your own opinions, but not your > own facts. > Even if you believe in the supernatural the answer is No. If Kirk's mind is magic, and he comes out of the transporter the same, then the transporter has reproduced the magic. You could say that Kirk would be a zombie even though he seems the same, but you could also say this if he took the train. -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Fri Oct 29 01:24:10 2021 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 19:24:10 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Does the Star Trek transporter kill people? In-Reply-To: References: <1af2a209-5c1b-0bf4-6bd8-36df6f1c0147@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: I would say, yes, absolutely, he is killed. Now, if you had the original not killed, when duplicated, you could get the two together, then do a brain computational binding with a neural ponytail . Then you could check to see if something like red/green inversion happened, to the reproduced copy, and check to see if you lost any other memories, and all that. So that would help. But if you didn't have two brains, after the duplication, the original will have been killed. Continuity is important to identity. It's not all important, but everything like that is more than trivial importance. On Thu, Oct 28, 2021 at 6:58 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Fri, 29 Oct 2021 at 06:42, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On 25/10/2021 12:14, BillK quoted: >> > This >> > question has kept me up at night for decades. I?m not kidding. And I >> > still don?t have an answer. >> >> > But the answer is still a matter of opinion. >> >> >> The answer is No. >> >> It's only a matter of opinion if you believe in the supernatural. >> Otherwise, it's a matter of fact. >> >> As the saying goes, you're entitled to your own opinions, but not your >> own facts. >> > > Even if you believe in the supernatural the answer is No. If Kirk's mind > is magic, and he comes out of the transporter the same, then the > transporter has reproduced the magic. You could say that Kirk would be a > zombie even though he seems the same, but you could also say this if he > took the train. > > > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Oct 29 02:43:59 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 19:43:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Does the Star Trek transporter kill people? In-Reply-To: References: <1af2a209-5c1b-0bf4-6bd8-36df6f1c0147@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <001001d7cc6e$d3af0310$7b0d0930$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Brent Allsop via extropy-chat ? Subject: Re: [ExI] Does the Star Trek transporter kill people? I would say, yes, absolutely, he is killed. Now, if you had the original not killed, when duplicated, you could get the two together, then do a brain computational binding with a neural ponytail . ? Brent Even better: have Spock do a non-destructive transport. Then have them get together and do a Vulcan mind meld. Afterwards, they would complain: Heh, Some mind meld you were. I didn?t learn a damn thing. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Oct 29 09:54:26 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 10:54:26 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Does the Star Trek transporter kill people? In-Reply-To: <008f01d7cc5e$98aaee10$ca00ca30$@rainier66.com> References: <1af2a209-5c1b-0bf4-6bd8-36df6f1c0147@zaiboc.net> <008f01d7cc5e$98aaee10$ca00ca30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Oct 2021 at 01:50, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > >... Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] Does the Star Trek transporter kill people? > > >...The answer is No. > ... > Ben > _______________________________________________ > > > Cool so if Kirk beams down with a big steaming pizza in his hand, it isn't > considered wasting food. > > spike > _______________________________________________ The transporter must be copying *everything* inside the transport cylinder shape, right down to the elementary level of energies and position of sub-atomic particles like quarks, leptons and bosons. i.e. not just living matter, otherwise no objects like clothes, weapons, etc. could be transported. This must include the surrounding air molecules, viruses, insects, etc. The transporter must also be able to clear and push aside the contents of a receiving cylinder area at the destination point. Hopefully not inside a T-rex or just in front of a bulldozer. All in all, it's a neat trick, if it can ever be possible. If the copying can be done without destroying the original, then the transporter becomes a factory 3D printer creating unlimited copies of anything. This seems to me to be unlikely, as the inventor could fill the world with copies of him/herself. Not a problem for Spike, of course, but I can see how some people would consider this to be a problem. :) A scanner with this level of detail must also be able to be used for medical purposes. Removing cancer cells, tumors, cosmetic blemishes, etc. Probably the first use, before transportation. BillK From lostmyelectron at protonmail.com Fri Oct 29 13:22:16 2021 From: lostmyelectron at protonmail.com (Gabe Waggoner) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 13:22:16 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Does the Star Trek transporter kill people? In-Reply-To: References: <1af2a209-5c1b-0bf4-6bd8-36df6f1c0147@zaiboc.net> <008f01d7cc5e$98aaee10$ca00ca30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: ??????? Original Message ??????? On Friday, October 29th, 2021 at 9:54 AM, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > On Fri, 29 Oct 2021 at 01:50, spike jones via extropy-chat > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org wrote: > > > ... Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > > > Subject: Re: [ExI] Does the Star Trek transporter kill people? > > > ...The answer is No. > > > ... > > > Ben > > Cool so if Kirk beams down with a big steaming pizza in his hand, it isn't > > considered wasting food. > > spike > > The transporter must be copying everything inside the transport > cylinder shape, right down to the elementary level of energies and > position of sub-atomic particles like quarks, leptons and bosons. > i.e. not just living matter, otherwise no objects like clothes, > weapons, etc. could be transported. This must include the surrounding > air molecules, viruses, insects, etc. The transporter must also be > able to clear and push aside the contents of a receiving cylinder area > at the destination point. > Hopefully not inside a T-rex or just in front of a bulldozer. > All in all, it's a neat trick, if it can ever be possible. > If the copying can be done without destroying the original, then the > transporter becomes a factory 3D printer creating unlimited copies of > anything. This seems to me to be unlikely, as the inventor could fill > the world with copies of him/herself. Not a problem for Spike, of > course, but I can see how some people would consider this to be a > problem. :) > > A scanner with this level of detail must also be able to be used for > medical purposes. Removing cancer cells, tumors, cosmetic blemishes, > etc. Probably the first use, before transportation. > > BillK This question has always fascinated me, too. I hadn't known that this issue had been discussed in this forum long before I ever joined. I remember from some _Star Trek_ novel that a character had the same question. He said something like "All you get is a copy that thinks it's the original." Some random crew member explained that it wasn't copying but rather a physical tunneling of particles through subspace from one location to another. Either way, Krauss's _The Physics of Star Trek_ pretty much convinced me that transporters will be forever fictional, however cool they are conceptually. From spike at rainier66.com Fri Oct 29 13:33:20 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 06:33:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Does the Star Trek transporter kill people? In-Reply-To: References: <1af2a209-5c1b-0bf4-6bd8-36df6f1c0147@zaiboc.net> <008f01d7cc5e$98aaee10$ca00ca30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003301d7ccc9$8a5ad3a0$9f107ae0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > > >> Cool so if Kirk beams down with a big steaming pizza in his hand, it > isn't considered wasting food. > > spike > _______________________________________________ >...The transporter must be copying *everything* inside the transport cylinder shape... otherwise no objects like clothes, weapons, etc. ... BillK COOL! Brilliant idea BillK! Gentle pacifist (like me) invents a transporter which cannot transport weapons! Or... anything so... Lieutenant Nine, please report to the transporter room, oh hi there Miss Seven, please stand here next to me, SCOTTY! Let er rip, me lad! And so on. So peaceful, no weapons... or... anything... >... as the inventor could fill the world with copies of him/herself. Not a problem for Spike, of course...BillK Oh BillK, think of the fun we would have. All of me. We would be a hoot, more fun than a barrel of monkeys. Especially if we could work together, start with the boring old Star Trek transporter and build... the PACIFIST t transporter. spike From brent.allsop at gmail.com Fri Oct 29 15:59:40 2021 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 09:59:40 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Does the Star Trek transporter kill people? In-Reply-To: References: <1af2a209-5c1b-0bf4-6bd8-36df6f1c0147@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Any one of these engineered copies would "seem" to be the same when they all tell you the strawberry is red: You will see the difference, if you ask each one: "What is redness like for you?" Are these differences important? On Thu, Oct 28, 2021 at 8:50 PM Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > > > On Fri, 29 Oct 2021 at 12:24, Brent Allsop wrote: > >> >> I would say, yes, absolutely, he is killed. >> Now, if you had the original not killed, when duplicated, you could get >> the two together, then do a brain computational binding with a neural >> ponytail . >> Then you could check to see if something like red/green inversion >> happened, to the reproduced copy, and check to see if you lost any other >> memories, and all that. >> So that would help. But if you didn't have two brains, after >> the duplication, the original will have been killed. >> Continuity is important to identity. It's not all important, but >> everything like that is more than trivial importance. >> > > Kirk has been through the transporter hundreds of times and he seems to be > the same despite this. Is that not good enough for you? > >> -- > Stathis Papaioannou > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Oct 29 19:10:38 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 14:10:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Does the Star Trek transporter kill people? In-Reply-To: <003301d7ccc9$8a5ad3a0$9f107ae0$@rainier66.com> References: <1af2a209-5c1b-0bf4-6bd8-36df6f1c0147@zaiboc.net> <008f01d7cc5e$98aaee10$ca00ca30$@rainier66.com> <003301d7ccc9$8a5ad3a0$9f107ae0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: 'Gentle pacifist' are you? Hah. Like Sgt. York. bill w On Fri, Oct 29, 2021 at 8:35 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of > BillK via extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > >> Cool so if Kirk beams down with a big steaming pizza in his hand, it > > isn't considered wasting food. > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > >...The transporter must be copying *everything* inside the transport > cylinder shape... otherwise no objects like clothes, weapons, etc. ... > BillK > > > COOL! Brilliant idea BillK! Gentle pacifist (like me) invents a > transporter which cannot transport weapons! Or... anything so... > Lieutenant > Nine, please report to the transporter room, oh hi there Miss Seven, please > stand here next to me, SCOTTY! Let er rip, me lad! > > And so on. So peaceful, no weapons... or... anything... > > >... as the inventor could fill the world with copies of him/herself. Not a > problem for Spike, of course...BillK > > Oh BillK, think of the fun we would have. All of me. We would be a hoot, > more fun than a barrel of monkeys. Especially if we could work together, > start with the boring old Star Trek transporter and build... the PACIFIST t > transporter. > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Oct 29 19:59:06 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 12:59:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Does the Star Trek transporter kill people? In-Reply-To: References: <1af2a209-5c1b-0bf4-6bd8-36df6f1c0147@zaiboc.net> <008f01d7cc5e$98aaee10$ca00ca30$@rainier66.com> <003301d7ccc9$8a5ad3a0$9f107ae0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004e01d7ccff$6e649010$4b2db030$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Does the Star Trek transporter kill people? >?'Gentle pacifist' are you? Hah. Like Sgt. York. bill w Ja! I am just like Sgt. York, except I am a gentle pacificist and all the medals and stuff that he had. But other than that, just like him. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Oct 29 20:47:47 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 13:47:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ...so now we know... Message-ID: <007701d7cd06$3b86b220$b2941660$@rainier66.com> I have a fun story for you. I was surfing around on the internet, found this medical study of some kind that was being done by some grad student or other, volunteers needed, so. being the dumb trusting sort, I signed up. A few days later, at my door shows a young woman dressed as Gunilla Goodbody from HeeHaw only more so (Note to the young: HeeHaw was made back in the early 70s when people still had a collective sensa huma.) It was too early for trick or treats, so I inquired if she had the wrong address and the local bachelor lived next door. But she was from the medical experiment/study for which I signed up. She looked like she would burst in both directions at once and still have two or three directions left over. I know this all sounds like I am setting you up for a joke, but this really happened. She claimed to be a nurse and was there to draw blood for the experiment or study. Being dumb as a dog turd, I went ahead with it, while my bride looked on with dismay. Afterwards, I realized she was right: real nurses don't dress like that. Furthermore, a bad actor could take those six vials of blood, kill someone, sprinkle my blood at the scene, DNA would result in the constables bashing down my door in the night while simultaneously crashing the doors of my brother and all six male first cousins. Like a fool, I didn't take any photos to prove the whole incident happened, or for identification purposes or to prove my innocence, etc. Some time passed, no constables, I forgot the whole thing. The study people were supposed to follow up with me periodically but never did, no phone call, not even a postcard. That takes us up to. today. I went to Stanford get my blood test for my annual checkup. She says: You signed up for a study. You may back out, or consent to give six extra vials of blood today. I told her I didn't recall ever having signed up for such a study. She queried if I live at 2425 Fairview Drive, I replied no, I haven't lived there for 29 years. She said: OK I will update that. I inquired regarding with whom I had signed up and when. Answer: Stanford Medical in October 1991. I responded this would be impossible for I had never seen a doctor before 1995 which was the first time I had set foot in that hospital. She said this study would likely have sent someone to my residence, apparently 2425 Fairview. Ah. So. That's what that was. I resisted the urge to inquire after the nurse who collected the sample. My fear was that she is now not nearly as impressive as she was in those days when I was younger than I am now. I asked (30 years after the fact) what the study was for. Answer: it was to correlate DNA with changing numbers for vitals. I gave them the six extra vials today. Lesson: don't surf the internet. Or if so, don't sign up for mysterious medical studies, then move away shortly afterwards. Or if so. take photos of whoever they send to collect the samples, if for no other reason than to be able to post entertaining images to one's online friends or for any other purpose one might imagine. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Oct 30 03:54:13 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 20:54:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ...so now we know... In-Reply-To: <007701d7cd06$3b86b220$b2941660$@rainier66.com> References: <007701d7cd06$3b86b220$b2941660$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002301d7cd41$ce1f6010$6a5e2030$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Subject: ...so now we know... >.I have a fun story for you.I asked (30 years after the fact) what the study was for. Answer: it was to correlate DNA with changing numbers for vitals. I gave them the six extra vials today. >.Lesson: don't surf the internet. Or if so, don't sign up for mysterious medical studies, then move away shortly afterwards. Or if so. take photos of whoever they send to collect the samples.spike OK now, I find out the study wasn't too good to be true. It was less true than that: it was only sufficiently good to true, but insufficiently good to be too good to be true. Apparently, good true stories become false if things get any better from there. So, the dubious study story was true, and it sounds like a really cool study: get gullible fools such as me to willingly hand over (bleed over?) blood samples twice, spaced 30 years apart, compare the numbers and correlate to DNA patterns. Cool! This was like the proto-23&Me, started when Anne Wojcicki was still in high school. OK so.I was part of that study. But now. I STILL don't know who is doing the study, where the results are published, whatever became of nurse Gunilla Goodbody, I know nossink! This sounds like a really cool project, I am a data point in it somewhere, and I have no idea what became of that, or what the hell, or where to find out. I do have one important piece of information: it really is connected to Stanford somehow. Have we medical hipsters here who might offer a vague clue where to find or how to find a Stanford-based study of ageing which includes blood samples collected 30 yrs apart? Adrian, you have friends in that world ja? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat Oct 30 04:35:40 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 21:35:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ...so now we know... In-Reply-To: <002301d7cd41$ce1f6010$6a5e2030$@rainier66.com> References: <007701d7cd06$3b86b220$b2941660$@rainier66.com> <002301d7cd41$ce1f6010$6a5e2030$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 29, 2021 at 8:56 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Adrian, you have friends in that world ja? > You'll need to help yourself here. Medical privacy laws greatly restrict the ability of anyone else to get answers for you. That said, the one who volunteered that you were part of a study may know. Go back there and ask her. She probably doesn't have all the answers, but she may know who you can ask. Again, though, you must do the asking. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Oct 30 05:13:01 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 22:13:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ...so now we know... In-Reply-To: References: <007701d7cd06$3b86b220$b2941660$@rainier66.com> <002301d7cd41$ce1f6010$6a5e2030$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006001d7cd4c$cfd32990$6f797cb0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Sent: Friday, October 29, 2021 9:36 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: Adrian Tymes Subject: Re: [ExI] ...so now we know... On Fri, Oct 29, 2021 at 8:56 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: Adrian, you have friends in that world ja? >?You'll need to help yourself here. Medical privacy laws greatly restrict the ability of anyone else to get answers for you. That said, the one who volunteered that you were part of a study may know. ? Ja, I realized the person at the blood lab who told me about this is the one to ask (or reminded me (even though she wasn?t even born yet when I gave the first sample.)) Regarding medical privacy: the study wouldn?t have any identities in there, not even the identities of the data points. I just need to find out who the heck is doing the study, and if I find that, I won?t even ask about the nurses they sent around. But I will share that study info here. The whole notion gives me a hell of an idea. Anne Wojcicki gave a talk or was giving talks in the late 90s, early 00s about this kind of thing and envisioned something like it. I was taking graduate classes in bio-informatics at the time, which was about harnessing increasing computer resources, speed and memory etc, to do stuff we couldn?t do before with data. Anne spoke to a group over at the presidio in SF. Cool stuff. This was before 23&Me started and before consumer-level DNA kits. Anne?s notion was that eventually we would be able to read and map the entire DNA for any person cheaply. She applied a version of Moore?s law to DNA sequencing, which was then nearing completion (the first human DNA mapping was declared complete in 2003.) She told us that eventually ordinary proles could have that done. Turns out she was right. You can do that now for 60 bucks. Cool! OK then, Anne started 23&Me, but her grand plan didn?t really work that well because it relied on users telling 23 everything that was wrong with them. Medics among us already know that this would produce the least reliable dataset: proles don?t really know what the heck is wrong with them. They read pseudo-scientific junk on the internet and imagine they have all manner of exotic fun rare medical conditions. Patients generally know little to nothing of the common boring old medical conditions they damn well probably do have, such as diabetes and generally underworked flabby muscles, all from eating too much sugar and spending way too much time sitting on our idle butts pecking at these little plastic typewriters. For example? me. Too much doing as I am doing right now. If we had piles and piles of medical data generated by actual blood tests and correlate that to genetic patterns, we would have a study worth reading perhaps. With enough of that kind of high-quality data, perhaps we can figure out what genetic sequences. For starters, using that study I relearned of today, we might be able to find which genetic sequences correlate most strongly to gullible fools who are so na?ve they believe a story which sounds dubious as all hell but which turns out to be true. There might be a genetic marker for that somewhere. OK, well I will search around tomorrow. If I find that study I will report back. Regarding the idea: AncestryDNA is an example of where a lot of people have checked off the box to let them study my DNA, to keep a sample etc. Once an info-nudist, always an info-nudist. It is too late to try to stuff the cat back into the bag. In AncestryDNA, a lot of people link their DNA to a specific person in a public tree. I did. Since the whole DNA genealogy game is interconnected, it is easy enough to find birth and death dates for people who have given AncestryDNA permission to keep their DNA. With just that info alone, jillions of DNA samples and their associated lifespans, we might be able to learn something important. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Oct 30 13:04:56 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2021 14:04:56 +0100 Subject: [ExI] ...so now we know... In-Reply-To: <002301d7cd41$ce1f6010$6a5e2030$@rainier66.com> References: <007701d7cd06$3b86b220$b2941660$@rainier66.com> <002301d7cd41$ce1f6010$6a5e2030$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Oct 2021 at 04:57, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > >?I have a fun story for you?I asked (30 years after the fact) what the study was for. Answer: it was to correlate DNA with changing numbers for vitals. I gave them the six extra vials today. > > OK so?I was part of that study. But now? I STILL don?t know who is doing the study, where the results are published, whatever became of nurse Gunilla Goodbody, I know nossink! This sounds like a really cool project, I am a data point in it somewhere, and I have no idea what became of that, or what the hell, or where to find out. I do have one important piece of information: it really is connected to Stanford somehow. > > Have we medical hipsters here who might offer a vague clue where to find or how to find a Stanford-based study of ageing which includes blood samples collected 30 yrs apart? Adrian, you have friends in that world ja? > > spike > _______________________________________________ I think your data may not be required any longer. A study of how aging biomarkers change over time usually requires blood tests at least annually. Your 30-year interval was only because you moved away from your recruitment address. The Snyder lab at Stanford Medical appears to be working in this area. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Sat Oct 30 13:27:10 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2021 06:27:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ...so now we know... In-Reply-To: References: <007701d7cd06$3b86b220$b2941660$@rainier66.com> <002301d7cd41$ce1f6010$6a5e2030$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004a01d7cd91$d865ef30$8931cd90$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat .... > _______________________________________________ I think your data may not be required any longer. A study of how aging biomarkers change over time usually requires blood tests at least annually. Your 30-year interval was only because you moved away from your recruitment address. The Snyder lab at Stanford Medical appears to be working in this area. BillK _______________________________________________ Thx BillK, Ja and something else occurred to me: if DNA from the same patient over a long time span is important, we have a lotta that stuff coming soon. The consumer-level DNA kits are 10 yrs old now, or older depending on how one defines "consumer level" and many of the users gave them permission to store those samples indefinitely (I did.) I had misunderstood the definition of a SNP, single nucleotide polymorphism to think an individual has mutations in their DNA which might be measured over time. But as I study it, I realize I need to stick to rocket science. This biology crap is just too complicated and it doesn't have enough differential equations in there to be understandable. Anyhows, BillK thanks for the link. I scanned the photo in that first link but didn't see any who looks a bit like... well, this is a good thing. {8^D Oh for a thousand lifetimes. I would study the hell outta... well, just everything. I would spend all of them studying cool stuff like DNA and rocket science and long term medical projects and insects and stuff. Life is just too short and I am too dumb. I need a brain transplant, with a smarter one this time. Can some of you computer hipsters arrange for us to upload into a computer, so we can run around on the internet gobbling up information like some kind of collective data pacman? spike From spike at rainier66.com Sat Oct 30 14:48:26 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2021 07:48:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] cycle 25 showing some early promise Message-ID: <006c01d7cd9d$32dfdb50$989f91f0$@rainier66.com> Hey cool, solar cycle 25 is giving us some early indications of being worthwhile. The monthly average for September was way up there. If you are into this kinda thing, you know that cycle 24 was kind of a dud. This caused me to worry we were going into a Maunder minimum which is thought to have some connection to the Little Ice Age from about the mid 1600s to about early 17s. We don't want another one of those. Furthermore. sunspots are correlated with f10.7 cm radiation, which expands the upper atmosphere, sweeping out low earth orbit. So if one is in the satellite biz and does his EM shielding correctly, 10.7 cm radiation is our friend. Check it out: spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 37385 bytes Desc: not available URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Oct 31 01:15:42 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2021 18:15:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Does the Star Trek transporter kill people? In-Reply-To: References: <1af2a209-5c1b-0bf4-6bd8-36df6f1c0147@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Not in this case. Redness really is identical for the entity before teleportation and after teleportation. On Fri, Oct 29, 2021 at 9:02 AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Any one of these engineered copies would "seem" to be the same when they > all tell you the strawberry is red: > > You will see the difference, if you ask each one: "What is redness like > for you?" > > Are these differences important? > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 28, 2021 at 8:50 PM Stathis Papaioannou > wrote: > >> >> >> On Fri, 29 Oct 2021 at 12:24, Brent Allsop >> wrote: >> >>> >>> I would say, yes, absolutely, he is killed. >>> Now, if you had the original not killed, when duplicated, you could get >>> the two together, then do a brain computational binding with a neural >>> ponytail . >>> Then you could check to see if something like red/green inversion >>> happened, to the reproduced copy, and check to see if you lost any other >>> memories, and all that. >>> So that would help. But if you didn't have two brains, after >>> the duplication, the original will have been killed. >>> Continuity is important to identity. It's not all important, but >>> everything like that is more than trivial importance. >>> >> >> Kirk has been through the transporter hundreds of times and he seems to >> be the same despite this. Is that not good enough for you? >> >>> -- >> Stathis Papaioannou >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Oct 31 01:19:44 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2021 18:19:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Does the Star Trek transporter kill people? In-Reply-To: References: <1af2a209-5c1b-0bf4-6bd8-36df6f1c0147@zaiboc.net> <008f01d7cc5e$98aaee10$ca00ca30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 29, 2021 at 2:56 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > If the copying can be done without destroying the original, then the > transporter becomes a factory 3D printer creating unlimited copies of > anything. Notice the replicators that transporters eventually evolved into. Though, "without destroying the original" was the trick they needed to perfect first. > This seems to me to be unlikely, as the inventor could fill > the world with copies of him/herself. Not a problem for Spike, of > course, but I can see how some people would consider this to be a > problem. :) > The inventor could do a thing that most inventors would not want to do - but the inventor is not forced to do it. I fail to see how this is a problem. The inventor of a gun could commit suicide with it, but most inventors would not want to. This has not stopped guns from being invented. > A scanner with this level of detail must also be able to be used for > medical purposes. Removing cancer cells, tumors, cosmetic blemishes, > etc. Probably the first use, before transportation. > And notice the early transporters in Star Trek: Enterprise. Bulk matter, where losing a higher percentage of the underlying matter was tolerable, was transported long before living beings. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: