From bronto at pobox.com Wed Sep 1 01:58:01 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2021 18:58:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] IQ and mental health In-Reply-To: <6D3C8BF1-F918-45E0-8A22-C7798D239CB2@gmail.com> References: <6D3C8BF1-F918-45E0-8A22-C7798D239CB2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <07adcb17-2bc3-48cb-e318-3e68a96dfec6@pobox.com> Well I have been called kind and witty and thoughtful and maybe even erudite,[*] and I'm not calling anyone a liar, but there's a part of me that CANNOT believe it. I guess that's what's meant by "Depression lies." (But when it says "Because of me you'll never ...", it's pretty damn credible.) Just contributing a datapoint here, painfully aware that it looks like making excuses and fishing for sympathy. .. A moment ago I asked the local subreddit if there's such a thing as a meetup of shy nerds who do math-art. On 2021-8-30 16:02, SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: > Haha! I?m sure you have something to offer. > On Aug 30, 2021, at 4:46 PM, Anton Sherwood wrote: >> ?I'd likely do more with people if it were easier to believe >> that anyone would welcome my company! -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From nuala.t at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 02:34:47 2021 From: nuala.t at gmail.com (Nuala Thomson) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 12:34:47 +1000 Subject: [ExI] IQ and mental health In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In response to Bill, I don't know how to quote text sorry. First thing to remember as BPD is that any emotion I feel is double or more than what "normal" people feel. So when I'm angry about something it's usually rage. So foremost all my attention and focus is on controlling impulses. Do not scream, do not throw anything, do not hurt anyone in any way. Then for the first day or so sitting in the emotion because it's a familiar discomfort. Then I start the process of logic. What am I *really* angry about? Did my reaction fit the facts? Was this reaction amplified because I haven't been looking after myself? Was I actually reacting to something else? Then the process for moving forward starts with self care basics, changing my body chemistry, and if I need to talk to the person about something I write out my speech as factually as possible with no attacks, possibly with an apology if I owe one, and schedule a meeting. But then I sit in the pain until the meeting occurs. Yes, I schedule meetings with loved ones regarding a topic so they can also prepare anything they might want to say. It's quite similar for happiness as well though. So something that might make a person smirk will put me in uncontrollable joy. BPD is very akin to bipolar except my fluctuations are not over days or weeks but can be just about instantaneous. It is draining. But yes most of my energy goes to impulse control which is why it takes longer. I also don't know how long it takes other people and what other people do to move past it. Would you care to share your way? On Sun., Aug. 29, 2021, 01:29 William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat, < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Emotions are still a base level instinctual reaction. > Only partly true. We have lots of conditioned emotions via the Pavlov > technique of pairing a stimulus with an unconditioned stimulus. Such as > learned fears. Road rage. Which leads to the conclusion that if you can > avoid stimuli that elicit anger you can help control that anger. > > I am interested to know just how you quash anger and why it takes you so > long. Not prying - just interested. Any answer we can add to emotional > controls is useful. bill w > > On Sat, Aug 28, 2021 at 10:13 AM Nuala Thomson via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I agree with both Brent and Bill. >> I suffer from BPD which (simply put) means my emotions are usually >> extremes and I'm very impulsive. I'm aware of it, I know how to cope with >> it, I know how to resist impulses, I know when to keep my mouth shut, and >> most importantly I knew something was wrong with me and to seek help and >> get the training I needed to have some control. I'm very aware when I'm >> irrational and it still takes me 2-3 days to get anger under control and >> think like a rational and logical person. >> So yes I agree IQ may help but only so far. Emotions are still a base >> level instinctual reaction. >> I think the situation, and self awareness play a big part on whether you >> can help yourself or not, and whether you educate yourself, regardless of >> subject matter. Which swings us back to IQ playing a part as I'm sure all >> of us self-educate on any number of topics. >> My latest topic of interest being negotiation vs compromise and contracts >> for long-term relationships. It makes sense to me as it takes out all of >> the possible mind-reading, and lays clear wants, needs, and expectations. >> Off topic. >> Life, emotions, thinking patterns and behaviours are all dialectic. There >> is no right or wrong. >> >> >> >> >> On Sat., Aug. 28, 2021, 11:23 William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat, < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Just think about it: IQ means a lot of adaptability to new situations >>> and ability to generalize to new ways of dealing with problems, emotional >>> and otherwise. Ideas are just ways of thinking about something in the >>> abstract. The cognitive side cannot completely control the emotional side, >>> but having more ideas helps a lot. I have always climbed out of my >>> problems by myself, with one small exception - saw a psych. for one visit >>> and decided that I could come up with ideas as well as he could. IQ helps >>> mental health - no doubt. bill w >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at maxmore.com Wed Sep 1 05:03:39 2021 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 05:03:39 +0000 Subject: [ExI] 40 Ways Things Are Getting Better Message-ID: An enjoyable reminder not to get stuck in gloomy, short-sighted thinking: https://reason.com/2021/08/31/40-ways-things-are-getting-better/ [https://reason.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/westendrf570021-1200x630.jpg] 40 Ways Things Are Getting Better ? Reason.com Answers relating to food, alcohol, marijuana, coffee, computing, and TV?areas no one can deny have improved since the turn of the century?seem to be the most prevalent. And, despite a diverse ... reason.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From guessmyneeds at yahoo.com Wed Sep 1 05:35:05 2021 From: guessmyneeds at yahoo.com (Sherry Knepper) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 05:35:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] I have resigned from the IEET Board of Directors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1443214675.798644.1630474505056@mail.yahoo.com> The right doesnt want to do much of anything to push forth technology and the left isn't enough either.? I know they cant help yet but hopefully it will grow....I am a member of the US Transhumanist Party.? I know some who want to see this party in power are trying to infiltrate, and the ones I know of have gone left.?? Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Sat, Aug 28, 2021 at 1:00 AM, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote: Thanks Max. Your guess is probably right. G. On Sat, Aug 28, 2021 at 4:07 AM Max More via extropy-chat wrote: > > I'm sure I know what decision by IEET you're talking about, Giulio. Well done in resigning from their board. > > --Max > ________________________________ > From: extropy-chat on behalf of Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat > Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 11:18 PM > To: ExI chat list > Cc: Giulio Prisco > Subject: [ExI] I have resigned from the IEET Board of Directors > > I have resigned from the IEET Board of Directors > https://giulioprisco.com/i-have-resigned-from-the-ieet-board-of-directors-793d10a10a8a > > I have resigned from the Board of Directors of the Institute for > Ethics and Emerging Technologies (IEET). > > I have resigned in protest against a recent decision, which hasn?t > been publicly announced yet. > > Like much of today?s liberal left, the IEET has embraced certain > currently fashionable but dangerously toxic trends. > > Identity politics, #MeToo, cancel culture? These trends start with > good sentiments, but become toxic and dangerous when pushed to > unreasonable and often ridiculous extremes. > > The excesses of some extremists, which are tolerated if not encouraged > by the mainstream left, are pushing more and more moderates (both > moderate conservatives and moderate liberals) toward the extreme > right. > > The likely results of this can only harm women and disadvantaged > minorities in the long run. But some people are more interested in > pointless virtue signaling than in actual outcomes. > > I?m sure many of the reasonable liberals who choose to tolerate this > without speaking up have the heart in the right place. But not the > brain. > > I don?t talk much about these things, and I try to ignore related > discussions on social media. Not only because I have better things to > do, but also because I don?t want to contribute to mass hysteria. > > Read my last book ?Futurist spaceflight meditations? if you are > curious about my take on current politics and culture wars. > > While in this post I have condemned some toxic aspects of the liberal > left, I?m perfectly aware that the conservative right has its own > toxic aspects, which too many reasonable conservatives choose to > tolerate. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 06:00:13 2021 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 08:00:13 +0200 Subject: [ExI] I have resigned from the IEET Board of Directors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Same here! Totally agree. On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 7:44 AM Ben Goertzel wrote: > > Yeah I have (at least for the time being) suspended my role as IEET > Fellow for the same reason... > > I am definitely "liberal left / democratic socialist" overall but am > strongly opposed to mob "justice" in its various forms, including the > form of screwing up peoples' professional (or personal) lives based on > allegations that are salacious but not compellingly proven. We had > best nip this ridiculous trend as soon as we can or it may morph into > something even more nefarious... > > On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 9:54 PM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > Thanks Max. Your guess is probably right. > > G. > > > > On Sat, Aug 28, 2021 at 4:07 AM Max More via extropy-chat > > wrote: > > > > > > I'm sure I know what decision by IEET you're talking about, Giulio. Well done in resigning from their board. > > > > > > --Max > > > ________________________________ > > > From: extropy-chat on behalf of Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat > > > Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 11:18 PM > > > To: ExI chat list > > > Cc: Giulio Prisco > > > Subject: [ExI] I have resigned from the IEET Board of Directors > > > > > > I have resigned from the IEET Board of Directors > > > https://giulioprisco.com/i-have-resigned-from-the-ieet-board-of-directors-793d10a10a8a > > > > > > I have resigned from the Board of Directors of the Institute for > > > Ethics and Emerging Technologies (IEET). > > > > > > I have resigned in protest against a recent decision, which hasn?t > > > been publicly announced yet. > > > > > > Like much of today?s liberal left, the IEET has embraced certain > > > currently fashionable but dangerously toxic trends. > > > > > > Identity politics, #MeToo, cancel culture? These trends start with > > > good sentiments, but become toxic and dangerous when pushed to > > > unreasonable and often ridiculous extremes. > > > > > > The excesses of some extremists, which are tolerated if not encouraged > > > by the mainstream left, are pushing more and more moderates (both > > > moderate conservatives and moderate liberals) toward the extreme > > > right. > > > > > > The likely results of this can only harm women and disadvantaged > > > minorities in the long run. But some people are more interested in > > > pointless virtue signaling than in actual outcomes. > > > > > > I?m sure many of the reasonable liberals who choose to tolerate this > > > without speaking up have the heart in the right place. But not the > > > brain. > > > > > > I don?t talk much about these things, and I try to ignore related > > > discussions on social media. Not only because I have better things to > > > do, but also because I don?t want to contribute to mass hysteria. > > > > > > Read my last book ?Futurist spaceflight meditations? if you are > > > curious about my take on current politics and culture wars. > > > > > > While in this post I have condemned some toxic aspects of the liberal > > > left, I?m perfectly aware that the conservative right has its own > > > toxic aspects, which too many reasonable conservatives choose to > > > tolerate. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > extropy-chat mailing list > > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > > > extropy-chat mailing list > > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > > -- > Ben Goertzel, PhD > http://goertzel.org > > ?He not busy being born is busy dying" -- Bob Dylan -- Giulio Prisco Writer, futurist, sometime philosopher. Author of: Tales of the Turing Church Futurist spaceflight meditations https://giulioprisco.com/ https://www.turingchurch.com/ https://turingchurch.net/ https://turingchurch.net/ From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 05:07:14 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 22:07:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 40 Ways Things Are Getting Better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Max, what is your view on the rising power of China/CCP? In time they may have an economy twice the size of ours, and so I hope they mellow out as soon as possible! But the problem is, they may continue to be an ever more powerful expansionist power that butts heads and tries to intimidate others. Yes, things are getting better, but I view the clash of worldviews between China and the U.S./her allies, as the preeminent matter of the 21st century. John On Tue, Aug 31, 2021 at 10:08 PM Max More via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > An enjoyable reminder not to get stuck in gloomy, short-sighted thinking: > > https://reason.com/2021/08/31/40-ways-things-are-getting-better/ > > 40 Ways Things Are Getting Better ? Reason.com > > Answers relating to food, alcohol, marijuana, coffee, computing, and > TV?areas no one can deny have improved since the turn of the century?seem > to be the most prevalent. And, despite a diverse ... > reason.com > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 05:13:32 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 22:13:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] THE FUTURE OF MONEY Message-ID: An interesting series on the future of money worth following...... "The development of new financial technologies and their adoption by nation states and private actors is unleashing transformative effects on the international financial system. Though the dollar remains the dominant international currency today, there is contentious debate over whether it can be, or is in the process of being, replaced. While another fiat currency replacing the dollar in the short term remains unlikely, the development of digital currencies in the form of central bank digital currencies (CBDCs), de-centralized cryptocurrencies, and private-sector digital currencies all pose threats to the U.S.?s ability to continue capturing gains from current systems, leveraging dollar centrality to enforce sanctions, and otherwise influence international financial transactions over the longer term. Our 3-part series, *The Future of Money*, breaks down the technologies and geopolitical forces shaping the global financial landscape and is a critical resource for those looking to better understand and navigate its rapid transformation." https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/08/26/future-of-money-dollar-decline-central-bank-digital-currency-crypto-sanctions-china-russia/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 14:12:16 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 09:12:16 -0500 Subject: [ExI] quote of the day Message-ID: Douglas Adams; ?The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 05:18:57 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 22:18:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Deep Learning Is Tackling Another Core Biology Mystery: RNA Structure Message-ID: "Deep learning is solving biology?s deepest secrets at breathtaking speed." "Just a month ago, DeepMind cracked a 50-year-old grand challenge: protein folding . A week later, they produced a totally transformative database of more than 350,000 protein structures, including over 98 percent of known human proteins. Structure is at the heart of biological functions. The data dump, set to explode to 130 million structures by the end of the year, allows scientists to foray into previous ?dark matter??proteins unseen and untested?of the human body?s makeup. The end result is nothing short of revolutionary. From basic life science research to developing new medications to fight our toughest disease foes like cancer, deep learning gave us a golden key to unlock new biological mechanisms?either natural or synthetic?that were previously unattainable. Now, the AI darling is set to do the same for RNA. As the middle child of the ?DNA to RNA to protein? central dogma, RNA didn?t get much press until its Covid-19 vaccine contribution . But the molecule is a double hero: it both carries genetic information, and?depending on its structure?can catalyze biological functions, regulate which genes are turned on, tweak your immune system, and even crazier, potentially pass down ?memories? through generations. It?s also frustratingly difficult to understand. Similar to proteins, RNA also folds into complicated 3D structures. The difference, according to Drs. Rhiju Das and Ron Dror at Stanford University, is that we comparatively know little about these molecules. There are 30 times as many types of RNA as there are proteins, but the number of deciphered RNA structures is less than one percent compared to proteins. The Stanford team decided to bridge that gap. In a paper published last week in *Science*, they described a deep learning algorithm called ARES (Atomic Rotationally Equivalent Scorer) that efficiently solves RNA structures, blasting previous attempts out of the water. The authors ?have achieved notable progress in a field that has proven recalcitrant to transformative advances,? said Dr. Kevin Weeks at the University of North Carolina, who was not involved in the study. Even more impressive, ARES was trained on only 18 RNA structures, yet was able to extract substantial ?building block? rules for RNA folding that?ll be further tested in experimental labs. ARES is also input agnostic, in that it isn?t specifically tailored to RNA. ?This approach is applicable to diverse problems in structural biology, chemistry, materials science, and beyond,? the authors said." https://singularityhub.com/2021/08/31/deep-learning-is-tackling-another-core-biology-mystery-rna-structure/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lostmyelectron at protonmail.com Wed Sep 1 15:53:22 2021 From: lostmyelectron at protonmail.com (Gabe Waggoner) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2021 15:53:22 +0000 Subject: [ExI] capitalism drives innovation In-Reply-To: References: <007301d79c31$56b593f0$0420bbd0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: ??????? Original Message ??????? On Saturday, August 28th, 2021 at 8:12 PM, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat wrote: > On 2021-8-28 10:22, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > making a covid mask with a split front seems perfectly logical: > > > > spectacles don?t fog up, it makes it easier to breathe and play in the > > > > band etc, while still qualifying as a mask worn over the face. > > Apparently allowing matter to be sprayed from the mouth, which a > > conventional mask would contain. > I'm taking another microbiology class this term. Surprisingly enough, my lecture professor revealed that his mask has that same front split because he plays an instrument. I'd had no idea his mask was different from conventional ones until he randomly showed us. From max at maxmore.com Wed Sep 1 17:03:14 2021 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 17:03:14 +0000 Subject: [ExI] 40 Ways Things Are Getting Better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: John, the power of China and its future is not a topic on which I feel particularly qualified to pontificate, except in one respect: Perhaps China's economy will come to be twice the size of the USA's. This is far from inevitable since growth is slowing and is likely to continue slowing both due to the inefficient economic policies and, crucially, to China moving into the later stages of making use of underutilized human capital -- urbanization, etc. Having a bigger economy than ours is not inherently bad, of course. It depends on how the country develops politically. Sorry for a weak answer, but it's really not my area. --Max ________________________________ From: extropy-chat on behalf of John Grigg via extropy-chat Sent: Wednesday, September 1, 2021 10:07 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: John Grigg Subject: Re: [ExI] 40 Ways Things Are Getting Better Max, what is your view on the rising power of China/CCP? In time they may have an economy twice the size of ours, and so I hope they mellow out as soon as possible! But the problem is, they may continue to be an ever more powerful expansionist power that butts heads and tries to intimidate others. Yes, things are getting better, but I view the clash of worldviews between China and the U.S./her allies, as the preeminent matter of the 21st century. John On Tue, Aug 31, 2021 at 10:08 PM Max More via extropy-chat > wrote: An enjoyable reminder not to get stuck in gloomy, short-sighted thinking: https://reason.com/2021/08/31/40-ways-things-are-getting-better/ [https://reason.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/westendrf570021-1200x630.jpg] 40 Ways Things Are Getting Better ? Reason.com Answers relating to food, alcohol, marijuana, coffee, computing, and TV?areas no one can deny have improved since the turn of the century?seem to be the most prevalent. And, despite a diverse ... reason.com _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at maxmore.com Wed Sep 1 17:07:45 2021 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 17:07:45 +0000 Subject: [ExI] 40 Ways Things Are Getting Better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I should have included the point that the Chinese population is aging and aging more rapidly than even Japan. That will also drag down economic growth. ________________________________ From: Max More Sent: Wednesday, September 1, 2021 10:03 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: John Grigg Subject: Re: [ExI] 40 Ways Things Are Getting Better John, the power of China and its future is not a topic on which I feel particularly qualified to pontificate, except in one respect: Perhaps China's economy will come to be twice the size of the USA's. This is far from inevitable since growth is slowing and is likely to continue slowing both due to the inefficient economic policies and, crucially, to China moving into the later stages of making use of underutilized human capital -- urbanization, etc. Having a bigger economy than ours is not inherently bad, of course. It depends on how the country develops politically. Sorry for a weak answer, but it's really not my area. --Max ________________________________ From: extropy-chat on behalf of John Grigg via extropy-chat Sent: Wednesday, September 1, 2021 10:07 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: John Grigg Subject: Re: [ExI] 40 Ways Things Are Getting Better Max, what is your view on the rising power of China/CCP? In time they may have an economy twice the size of ours, and so I hope they mellow out as soon as possible! But the problem is, they may continue to be an ever more powerful expansionist power that butts heads and tries to intimidate others. Yes, things are getting better, but I view the clash of worldviews between China and the U.S./her allies, as the preeminent matter of the 21st century. John On Tue, Aug 31, 2021 at 10:08 PM Max More via extropy-chat > wrote: An enjoyable reminder not to get stuck in gloomy, short-sighted thinking: https://reason.com/2021/08/31/40-ways-things-are-getting-better/ [https://reason.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/westendrf570021-1200x630.jpg] 40 Ways Things Are Getting Better ? Reason.com Answers relating to food, alcohol, marijuana, coffee, computing, and TV?areas no one can deny have improved since the turn of the century?seem to be the most prevalent. And, despite a diverse ... reason.com _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Wed Sep 1 19:59:13 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 20:59:13 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Arrogance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 01/09/2021 06:35, bill w wrote: > Since we are way down the list of free places ... I expect you're even further down now, since the latest news from Texas. No abortions after 6 weeks! And as if that wasn't bonkers enough, they are letting just anybody sue anybody else who is seen as being an accessory to abortion, even if it doesn't affect the peson doing the suing in any way. Surely that can't stand up to a challenge? Ben From sparge at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 20:17:11 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:17:11 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Arrogance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 4:04 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > I expect you're even further down now, since the latest news from Texas. > No abortions after 6 weeks! And as if that wasn't bonkers enough, they > are letting just anybody sue anybody else who is seen as being an > accessory to abortion, even if it doesn't affect the peson doing the > suing in any way. Surely that can't stand up to a challenge? > That's bonkers, all right. But that's just Texas, not the entire US. And surely the most ridiculous parts will fail legal scrutiny. But until there's a constitutional amendment protecting abortion, there will be silly situations like this, and no guarantee that abortions will be available. Unfortunately, our ability to pass constitutional amendments is seriously in doubt. We couldn't even pass the Equal Rights Amendment. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 23:10:50 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 18:10:50 -0500 Subject: [ExI] question for Max or anyone Message-ID: Is money being spent wisely in the tech industry? Are they spending too much on things that will make a lot of money as compared to something that will really advance knowledge? What are they not spending enough money on? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Sep 1 23:30:28 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:30:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] question for Max or anyone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008001d79f89$5a0d5c80$0e281580$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] question for Max or anyone >?Is money being spent wisely in the tech industry? Are they spending too much on things that will make a lot of money as compared to something that will really advance knowledge? What are they not spending enough money on? bill w Industry?s job is to make money. It isn?t to really advance knowledge. Academia?s job is to really advance knowledge, not really to make a lot of money. In that light, define your term ?wisely.? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 23:33:09 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:33:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] question for Max or anyone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The things that they get to - and we don't get to - say what they spend money on. Which makes discussion and angsting about it, useless. On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 4:14 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Is money being spent wisely in the tech industry? Are they spending too > much on things that will make a lot of money as compared to something that > will really advance knowledge? What are they not spending enough money on? > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 23:42:44 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 18:42:44 -0500 Subject: [ExI] question for Max or anyone In-Reply-To: <008001d79f89$5a0d5c80$0e281580$@rainier66.com> References: <008001d79f89$5a0d5c80$0e281580$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: according to spike I should rephrase my question, which is below: > > > > > > >?Is money being spent wisely in the tech industry, in academic tech > research? Are they spending too much on things that will make a lot of > money as compared to something that will really advance knowledge? What > are they not spending enough money on? > > > > bill w > > > > > > Industry?s job is to make money. It isn?t to really advance knowledge. > Academia?s job is to really advance knowledge, not really to make a lot of > money. In that light, define your term ?wisely.? > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 23:53:09 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 18:53:09 -0500 Subject: [ExI] question for Max or anyone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's just an idle question, Adrian. I don't have long to live, probably, and want to know something about the near future. That's all this is. It is not useless to me. bill w On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 6:42 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The things that they get to - and we don't get to - say what they spend > money on. > > Which makes discussion and angsting about it, useless. > > On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 4:14 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Is money being spent wisely in the tech industry? Are they spending too >> much on things that will make a lot of money as compared to something that >> will really advance knowledge? What are they not spending enough money on? >> >> bill w >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 10:15:02 2021 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 12:15:02 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: New Turing Church newsletter @substack In-Reply-To: <20210902053807.1.f20a5768acbf66a653237c70664592a0@mg1.substack.com> References: <20210902053807.1.f20a5768acbf66a653237c70664592a0@mg1.substack.com> Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Giulio Prisco from Turing Church Date: Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 7:38 AM Subject: New Turing Church newsletter @substack To: A new Turing Church newsletter and website. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? New Turing Church newsletter @substack A new Turing Church newsletter and website. Giulio Prisco Sep 2 [image: Comment] [image: Share] I have launched this Turing Church Substack newsletter as a companion to the main Turing Church website turingchurch.net . This newsletter replaces the newsletter distributed via turingchurch.net . I have assigned the domain www.turingchurch.com (previously assigned to an older Turing Church website) to this Turing Church newsletter. This newsletter covers the intersections of science and religion, spirituality and technology, engineering and science fiction, mind and matter. Hacking religion, enlightening science, awakening technology. Exploring outer and inner spaces. I write about metaphysics and also practical philosophy and culture. Metaphysics is pristine and seems far from the actual reality of here and now, so I can write about it without discussing current issues like politics and culture wars. But I also want to contribute to the emergence of new (and/or the revival of old) philosophies, religions, and cultural movements able to re-enchant our world, give us radical optimism, and guide us toward the stars. Here, I can?t stay away from current issues. So there?s some politics. Not much, but some. This is, nominally, a paid publication. But don?t worry, most (by far) of the content is free, and if you sign up for a free subscription you?ll receive everything besides occasional posts reserved to paid subscribers. I have set payments to the minimum allowed. Please buy a paid subscription if you can afford it, and think of it as a donation. There are many things that I love about Substack. For example, subscribers receive updates via full text email. The comment system is simple and clean. I think interaction with and between readers is fundamental. Substack?s business model is clean and simple. I like the idea of paying for good content (remember print newspapers and magazines?) like we have done for centuries. It can be argued that the runaway of ?free? ad-supported content toward thoughtless clickbait has broken the internet. ?Free? social networks owned by a handful of tech giants have broken the internet even more, and society too. Isn?t it much simpler and cleaner (and better) if we just pay for content? ------------------------------ *Cover picture background: Stars over Berlin , from Wikimedia Commons.* [image: Comment] [image: Share] Thanks for subscribing to Turing Church . This post is public, so feel free to share it. Share ? 2021 Giulio Prisco Unsubscribe 111 Sutter Street, 7th Floor, San Francisco, CA 94104 [image: Publish on Substack] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 10:28:26 2021 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 12:28:26 +0200 Subject: [ExI] 40 Ways Things Are Getting Better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Like John said, I think that the clash of worldviews between China and the U.S./her allies is likely to be one of the main themes of the 21st century. I hope we in the West will get our act together, and soon, otherwise all seems to indicate that China will win. And if so, so be it. On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 7:06 PM Max More via extropy-chat wrote: > > John, the power of China and its future is not a topic on which I feel particularly qualified to pontificate, except in one respect: Perhaps China's economy will come to be twice the size of the USA's. This is far from inevitable since growth is slowing and is likely to continue slowing both due to the inefficient economic policies and, crucially, to China moving into the later stages of making use of underutilized human capital -- urbanization, etc. Having a bigger economy than ours is not inherently bad, of course. It depends on how the country develops politically. > > Sorry for a weak answer, but it's really not my area. > > --Max > ________________________________ > From: extropy-chat on behalf of John Grigg via extropy-chat > Sent: Wednesday, September 1, 2021 10:07 PM > To: ExI chat list > Cc: John Grigg > Subject: Re: [ExI] 40 Ways Things Are Getting Better > > Max, what is your view on the rising power of China/CCP? In time they may have an economy twice the size of ours, and so I hope they mellow out as soon as possible! But the problem is, they may continue to be an ever more powerful expansionist power that butts heads and tries to intimidate others. Yes, things are getting better, but I view the clash of worldviews between China and the U.S./her allies, as the preeminent matter of the 21st century. > > John > > On Tue, Aug 31, 2021 at 10:08 PM Max More via extropy-chat wrote: > > An enjoyable reminder not to get stuck in gloomy, short-sighted thinking: > > https://reason.com/2021/08/31/40-ways-things-are-getting-better/ > 40 Ways Things Are Getting Better ? Reason.com > Answers relating to food, alcohol, marijuana, coffee, computing, and TV?areas no one can deny have improved since the turn of the century?seem to be the most prevalent. And, despite a diverse ... > reason.com > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -- Giulio Prisco Writer, futurist, sometime philosopher. Author of: Tales of the Turing Church Futurist spaceflight meditations https://giulioprisco.com/ https://www.turingchurch.com/ https://turingchurch.net/ From atymes at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 16:56:27 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 09:56:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Great sf writers: A.A. Attanasio In-Reply-To: <3091bdcd-23e6-fe69-7e98-715f5811cd09@zaiboc.net> References: <3091bdcd-23e6-fe69-7e98-715f5811cd09@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 31, 2021 at 11:44 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 30/08/2021 04:14, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > On Sun, Aug 29, 2021 at 10:49 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> At the very least, any writer who assumes that the speed of light can be >> exceeded, should deal with the consequences that would ensue. I'm not >> talking about being able to expand to other galaxies, etc., I'm talking >> about the consequences that pretty much ensure that the speed of light >> cannot be exceeded. >> > > Which consequences would those be? > > I'm thinking about time-travel paradoxes in particular, FTL travel leading > to causality violation > Alas, this is a common misconception. People confuse "in (my/the origin's) light cone" with "actually happened". Let's take two points, A and B, some distance apart - say, in different solar systems separated by a few light years. Someone teleports (instantly, and thus FTL) from A to B, does something at B (big enough to be noticed at A - say, causes B's star to go nova, with resultant radiation input to neighboring solar systems), then teleports back. The misconception says that this is time travel, because the action is done at B before the light from B can reach A, but it doesn't "happen" to A until the light from B reaches A. But clearly it is not time travel. It just means it won't be seen at A - or its consequences (travelling no faster than light) affect A - for a few years. There may be an effect that might occur at A in a few years, and whoever teleported to and from B will have foreknowledge of this. (In this example, they might know to be on the far side of a planet from B when the radiation arrives, and when that will be.) "Time travel" would require going into the past of A itself, affecting things that were already perceived at A. (Or going into the future - call it A' - and then returning to the present, which would be going into the past of A'.) People can and do change the future without time travel (or FTL) all the time. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Thu Sep 2 17:34:47 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 18:34:47 +0100 Subject: [ExI] , question for Max or anyone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <75f1640a-235f-167a-ebea-b765806fee82@zaiboc.net> On 02/09/2021 00:30, bill w asked: > Is money being spent wisely in the tech industry?? Are they spending > too much on things that will make a lot of money as compared to > something that will really advance knowledge?? What are they not > spending enough money on Longevity research. Not only will that benefit the human race, it will make a cubic buttload (to employ a Spikeism) of money. Why isn't there a lot more longevity research? I can only think it's simple short-sightedness. Ben From sparge at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 17:55:12 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 13:55:12 -0400 Subject: [ExI] , question for Max or anyone In-Reply-To: <75f1640a-235f-167a-ebea-b765806fee82@zaiboc.net> References: <75f1640a-235f-167a-ebea-b765806fee82@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 1:39 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 02/09/2021 00:30, bill w asked: > > Is money being spent wisely in the tech industry? Are they spending > > too much on things that will make a lot of money as compared to > > something that will really advance knowledge? What are they not > > spending enough money on > A better question might be to ask how we can address the fact that capitalism is all about making money, whether the long-term term effects are good for society or not. Facebook has some pluses and minuses, but the corporation doesn't bear any liability for the damage it causes. Longevity research. > > Not only will that benefit the human race, it will make a cubic buttload > (to employ a Spikeism) of money. > > Why isn't there a lot more longevity research? I can only think it's > simple short-sightedness. > Research is expensive and longevity is a tough nut to crack. It takes deep pockets to invest in it heavily. And there's a fraction of the population that is morally opposed to it as it's going against the natural order of things. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Sep 2 18:18:30 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 11:18:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] , question for Max or anyone In-Reply-To: <75f1640a-235f-167a-ebea-b765806fee82@zaiboc.net> References: <75f1640a-235f-167a-ebea-b765806fee82@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <010c01d7a026$ef62f400$ce28dc00$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat On 02/09/2021 00:30, bill w asked: >> Is money being spent wisely in the tech industry? Are they spending ... >> spending enough money on Longevity research. >...Not only will that benefit the human race, it will make a cubic buttload (to employ a Spikeism) of money... Hey cool a double win. >...Why isn't there a lot more longevity research? I can only think it's simple short-sightedness. Ben Ben I would suggest it is because there isn't enough money in it. There is money to be made for sure, but not enough of it. Optimistist's view: there is a lot of R&D going into that and it is making cubic buttloads, but it isn't easily recognizable as longevity research. It is focused not so much on making us live longer but in looking better and being more alive while we are living. Consider this photo of my great grandmother that I took as a small child age 6. She is 81 in that photo. Great granny did everything right even by today's health standards: she never smoked, never drank alcohol, clean living, plenty of exercise running her farm. By today's standards, 81 isn't particularly old, but this was the last year she still had the strength to do what she is doing in this photo (inquiries welcome.) She expired about a year later. In those days, men were generally worn out before they ever reached 80. Her husband made it to 65 and perished for no particular reason other than men just pretty much were used up by that age back then. Compare that (really not long ago) to a 60 year old man today. Compare a typical 81 year old woman then and now. In most cases, we are just more alive at any given age than our counterparts even 50 years ago, and definitely 100 years ago. Perhaps much of it has to do with our still having teeth after age 50. Far too many of the old timers did not. Whatever we are doing now is adding years to our lives and adding life to our years. Our health dollars are doing something. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 31846 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 18:30:03 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 19:30:03 +0100 Subject: [ExI] , question for Max or anyone In-Reply-To: <75f1640a-235f-167a-ebea-b765806fee82@zaiboc.net> References: <75f1640a-235f-167a-ebea-b765806fee82@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Sept 2021 at 18:40, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > > Longevity research. > > Not only will that benefit the human race, it will make a cubic buttload > (to employ a Spikeism) of money. > > Why isn't there a lot more longevity research? I can only think it's > simple short-sightedness. > > Ben > _______________________________________________ Spike doesn't do cubic buttloads. You're thinking of wombats. :) BillK From pharos at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 18:50:35 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 19:50:35 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Great sf writers: A.A. Attanasio In-Reply-To: References: <3091bdcd-23e6-fe69-7e98-715f5811cd09@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Sept 2021 at 18:02, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > But clearly it is not time travel. It just means it won't be seen at A - or its consequences (travelling no faster than light) affect A - for a few years. There may be an effect that might occur at A in a few years, and whoever teleported to and from B will have foreknowledge of this. (In this example, they might know to be on the far side of a planet from B when the radiation arrives, and when that will be.) > > "Time travel" would require going into the past of A itself, affecting things that were already perceived at A. (Or going into the future - call it A' - and then returning to the present, which would be going into the past of A'.) People can and do change the future without time travel (or FTL) all the time. > _______________________________________________ Causality violation needs to involve moving in different frames of reference. (The maths is complicated). See: This is a popular question. A search provides many confused responses. :) BillK From spike at rainier66.com Thu Sep 2 18:51:25 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 11:51:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] , question for Max or anyone In-Reply-To: References: <75f1640a-235f-167a-ebea-b765806fee82@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <000a01d7a02b$887e3790$997aa6b0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat ... _______________________________________________ Spike doesn't do cubic buttloads. You're thinking of wombats. :) https://theconversation.com/why-do-wombats-do-cube-shaped-poo-55975 BillK _______________________________________________ BillK, do explain please... hooowwwww... in the hellllll... did you eeever find this? There must be some kind of record for the most obscure piece of information in history. I would nominate this. spike From sparge at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 18:53:51 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 14:53:51 -0400 Subject: [ExI] , question for Max or anyone In-Reply-To: <010c01d7a026$ef62f400$ce28dc00$@rainier66.com> References: <75f1640a-235f-167a-ebea-b765806fee82@zaiboc.net> <010c01d7a026$ef62f400$ce28dc00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 2:22 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Consider this photo of my great grandmother that I took as a small child > age 6. She is 81 in that photo. Great granny did everything right even by > today?s health standards: she never smoked, never drank alcohol, clean > living, plenty of exercise running her farm. By today?s standards, 81 > isn?t particularly old, but this was the last year she still had the > strength to do what she is doing in this photo (inquiries welcome.) > Making apple butter? Soap? -Dave > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 31846 bytes Desc: not available URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 19:11:57 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 12:11:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Great sf writers: A.A. Attanasio In-Reply-To: References: <3091bdcd-23e6-fe69-7e98-715f5811cd09@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 11:53 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, 2 Sept 2021 at 18:02, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > > But clearly it is not time travel. It just means it won't be seen at A > - or its consequences (travelling no faster than light) affect A - for a > few years. There may be an effect that might occur at A in a few years, > and whoever teleported to and from B will have foreknowledge of this. (In > this example, they might know to be on the far side of a planet from B when > the radiation arrives, and when that will be.) > > > > "Time travel" would require going into the past of A itself, affecting > things that were already perceived at A. (Or going into the future - call > it A' - and then returning to the present, which would be going into the > past of A'.) People can and do change the future without time travel (or > FTL) all the time. > > _______________________________________________ > > > Causality violation needs to involve moving in different frames of > reference. > (The maths is complicated). > See: > < > https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/52249/how-does-faster-than-light-travel-violate-causality#54242 > > > This is a popular question. A search provides many confused responses. > :) > The problem with using relativity like that, is that it breaks when you change velocity - change your acceleration - to turn around and come home. If you ignore that break, FTL might seem to induce time travel, but that's like ignoring certain steps to "prove" that a perpetual motion machine works. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Sep 2 19:23:33 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 12:23:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] , question for Max or anyone In-Reply-To: References: <75f1640a-235f-167a-ebea-b765806fee82@zaiboc.net> <010c01d7a026$ef62f400$ce28dc00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004401d7a030$05c88260$11598720$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dave Sill via extropy-chat Making apple butter? Soap? -Dave Ja, apple butter. They lived on the stuff most of the winter, donated any left over to the local food bank, who were most grateful to get it. A few of the locals were still doing it that way into the 1960s. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 16358 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sparge at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 19:53:30 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 15:53:30 -0400 Subject: [ExI] , question for Max or anyone In-Reply-To: <004401d7a030$05c88260$11598720$@rainier66.com> References: <75f1640a-235f-167a-ebea-b765806fee82@zaiboc.net> <010c01d7a026$ef62f400$ce28dc00$@rainier66.com> <004401d7a030$05c88260$11598720$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: What state was that? I've never seen apple butter outside the southeast. On Thu, Sep 2, 2021, 3:29 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Dave Sill via extropy-chat > > Making apple butter? Soap? > > > > -Dave > > > > > > Ja, apple butter. They lived on the stuff most of the winter, donated any > left over to the local food bank, who were most grateful to get it. A few > of the locals were still doing it that way into the 1960s. > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 16358 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 16358 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bronto at pobox.com Thu Sep 2 21:06:04 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 14:06:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] , question for Max or anyone In-Reply-To: <000a01d7a02b$887e3790$997aa6b0$@rainier66.com> References: <75f1640a-235f-167a-ebea-b765806fee82@zaiboc.net> <000a01d7a02b$887e3790$997aa6b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On 2021-9-02 11:51, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >> https://theconversation.com/why-do-wombats-do-cube-shaped-poo-55975 > BillK, do explain please... hooowwwww... in the hellllll... did you eeever > find this? Seems to me it was making the rounds sometime in the last year. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Thu Sep 2 21:13:06 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 14:13:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] , question for Max or anyone In-Reply-To: References: <75f1640a-235f-167a-ebea-b765806fee82@zaiboc.net> <010c01d7a026$ef62f400$ce28dc00$@rainier66.com> <004401d7a030$05c88260$11598720$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006301d7a03f$58b41660$0a1c4320$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dave Sill via extropy-chat Sent: Thursday, September 2, 2021 12:54 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: Dave Sill Subject: Re: [ExI] , question for Max or anyone What state was that? I've never seen apple butter outside the southeast.. Greenup county, eastern Kentucky, coal country. People there made do with what they had. They had apple trees that my great grandfather planted from seedlings in 1915. They planted apples on the hillside where it was too steep for the mule to pull the bull-tongue plow. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Thu Sep 2 21:13:49 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 22:13:49 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Time Travel and FTL flight In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <80e3f627-afcf-8822-ff57-c68ef02702dc@zaiboc.net> > On Thu, 2 Sept 2021 at 18:02, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > > wrote: > > > > > But clearly it is not time travel So Adrian, are you saying that FTL flight wouldn't involve time-travel? I thought that under certain circumstances it would (specifically FTL travel to a location that was accelerating away at a significant rate relative to the point of departure, then FTL return. I think). Or is there no problem, and it's just the simple fact that nothing with mass can travel at, or faster than, light-speed that stops us being able to do it? (and tricks like Acubierre Drive, if it could exist, would work without causing paradoxes)? Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 21:34:13 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 14:34:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] , question for Max or anyone In-Reply-To: <000a01d7a02b$887e3790$997aa6b0$@rainier66.com> References: <75f1640a-235f-167a-ebea-b765806fee82@zaiboc.net> <000a01d7a02b$887e3790$997aa6b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 12:01 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > There must be some kind of record for the most obscure piece of information > in history. I would nominate this. > I would nominate the full details of most low-level battles in WWII or earlier. Even the participants usually never knew everything that happened, and the survivors are generally dead by now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 21:41:30 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 14:41:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Time Travel and FTL flight In-Reply-To: <80e3f627-afcf-8822-ff57-c68ef02702dc@zaiboc.net> References: <80e3f627-afcf-8822-ff57-c68ef02702dc@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 2:26 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, 2 Sept 2021 at 18:02, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > > But clearly it is not time travel > > So Adrian, are you saying that FTL flight wouldn't involve time-travel? > I am saying that it doesn't necessarily involve time travel. There may be certain versions that might involve it, but there exists at least one version that does not. > I thought that under certain circumstances it would (specifically FTL > travel to a location that was accelerating away at a significant rate > relative to the point of departure, then FTL return. I think). Or is there > no problem, and it's just the simple fact that nothing with mass can travel > at, or faster than, light-speed that stops us being able to do it? (and > tricks like Acubierre Drive, if it could exist, would work without causing > paradoxes)? > The latter. Normal acceleration beyond light speed might cause it, but is impossible, so it doesn't matter what the math says if it were - and even if it were possible, it would not be the only way. As you note, there exist tricks to get around the limit, and said tricks also (so far as we currently know) cut off the potential for time travel. Thus: not all forms of FTL that are possible, cause time travel. It may be that no forms of FTL that are possible, cause time travel, but I have not yet done that analysis. The matter at hand was the objection that FTL always causes time travel, which I believe is not a true claim. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ddraig at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 01:55:14 2021 From: ddraig at gmail.com (ddraig@pobox.com) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 11:55:14 +1000 Subject: [ExI] , question for Max or anyone In-Reply-To: <000a01d7a02b$887e3790$997aa6b0$@rainier66.com> References: <75f1640a-235f-167a-ebea-b765806fee82@zaiboc.net> <000a01d7a02b$887e3790$997aa6b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Sept 2021 at 05:06, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of > BillK via extropy-chat > ... _______________________________________________ > > > Spike doesn't do cubic buttloads. You're thinking of wombats. :) > > https://theconversation.com/why-do-wombats-do-cube-shaped-poo-55975 > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > > > > BillK, do explain please... hooowwwww... in the hellllll... did you eeever > find this? > > There must be some kind of record for the most obscure piece of information > in history. I would nominate this. > Maybe he is Australian? Everyone in Australia knows this, and yeah it is weird Dwayne -- ddraig at pobox.com ddraigbot / NSO / Connery ...r.e.t.u.r.n....t.o....t.h.e....s.o.u.r.c.e... http://fav.me/dqkgpd our aim is wakefulness, our enemy is dreamless sleep -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Sep 3 16:28:36 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 09:28:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] abba is back: the wicked coolest thing in years Message-ID: <005801d7a0e0$bf4bbfd0$3de33f70$@rainier66.com> Check this: they have simulated or digitally recreated the young ABBA, one of my favorite rock groups from my tragically misspent youth: https://twitter.com/i/status/1433475421765607426 Check it out: ABBA Voyage Official Website - 2022 ABBA Concert in London Fun part: I kept a pair of my disco pants from the olden days. I do confess I have never actually been in a disco and I am not sure I would recognize it as such were I to be in one, but I assume it has a mirror globe or something, and geezers dancing to slightly modified lyrics, such as Dancing queen, young and sweet, only seventyyyyyyy? Oh mercy I love living in our times. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 16:50:07 2021 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 12:50:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Time Travel and FTL flight In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <581E59B7-D598-492A-86B2-ED2D2A0BC2AB@gmail.com> I think it?s totally possible to travel faster than light without traveling faster than time. Sure you could see light from the past, but we do that all the time. SR Ballard > On Sep 2, 2021, at 5:44 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? >> On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 2:26 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > >>> On Thu, 2 Sept 2021 at 18:02, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat >>> wrote: >>> > >>> >>> > But clearly it is not time travel >> So Adrian, are you saying that FTL flight wouldn't involve time-travel? >> > I am saying that it doesn't necessarily involve time travel. There may be certain versions that might involve it, but there exists at least one version that does not. >> I thought that under certain circumstances it would (specifically FTL travel to a location that was accelerating away at a significant rate relative to the point of departure, then FTL return. I think). Or is there no problem, and it's just the simple fact that nothing with mass can travel at, or faster than, light-speed that stops us being able to do it? (and tricks like Acubierre Drive, if it could exist, would work without causing paradoxes)? >> > The latter. Normal acceleration beyond light speed might cause it, but is impossible, so it doesn't matter what the math says if it were - and even if it were possible, it would not be the only way. As you note, there exist tricks to get around the limit, and said tricks also (so far as we currently know) cut off the potential for time travel. > > Thus: not all forms of FTL that are possible, cause time travel. It may be that no forms of FTL that are possible, cause time travel, but I have not yet done that analysis. > > The matter at hand was the objection that FTL always causes time travel, which I believe is not a true claim. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 17:10:42 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 18:10:42 +0100 Subject: [ExI] abba is back: the wicked coolest thing in years In-Reply-To: <005801d7a0e0$bf4bbfd0$3de33f70$@rainier66.com> References: <005801d7a0e0$bf4bbfd0$3de33f70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Sept 2021 at 17:33, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > Check this: they have simulated or digitally recreated the young ABBA, one of my favorite rock groups from my tragically misspent youth: > > https://twitter.com/i/status/1433475421765607426 > > Check it out: > ABBA Voyage Official Website - 2022 ABBA Concert in London > > Fun part: I kept a pair of my disco pants from the olden days. I do confess I have never actually been in a disco and I am not sure I would recognize it as such were I to be in one, but I assume it has a mirror globe or something, and geezers dancing to slightly modified lyrics, such as > > Dancing queen, young and sweet, only seventyyyyyyy? > Oh mercy I love living in our times. > > spike > _______________________________________________ The animals love that music too!! BillK -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: animals-9.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 56515 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Sep 3 17:14:26 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 10:14:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] abba is back: the wicked coolest thing in years In-Reply-To: <005801d7a0e0$bf4bbfd0$3de33f70$@rainier66.com> References: <005801d7a0e0$bf4bbfd0$3de33f70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <000501d7a0e7$2761a840$7624f8c0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Sent: Friday, September 3, 2021 9:29 AM To: 'ExI chat list' Cc: 'Cc:' Subject: abba is back: the wicked coolest thing in years >?Check this: they have simulated or digitally recreated the young ABBA? ABBA Voyage Official Website - 2022 ABBA Concert in London ? >?Dancing queen, young and sweet, only seventyyyyyyy? >?Oh mercy I love living in our times. >?spike I did the math. The original not-yet-legal Dancing Queen would be only 62 now. This link has new significance for the younger crowd who may have missed this the first time around, nearly 20 yrs ago: https://www.imdb.com/video/vi1216872729?playlistId=tt0258153 &ref_=tt_ov_vi This is the only case I know where Al Pacino did a comedy, and a SciFi at that. Brilliant range for that man. Those unfamiliar with 2002 computer tech may miss some of the sight gags in there, but it?s a fun romp anyway. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Fri Sep 3 19:07:25 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 20:07:25 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Time Travel and FTL flight In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 03/09/2021 18:11, Adrian Tymes wrote: > The matter at hand was the objection that FTL always causes time > travel, which I believe is not a true claim. What I was trying to say was, if FTL travel /can/ result in time-travel, then that means that FTL travel is not possible (on the premise that time-travel is not possible), not that it always does. Unless, somehow, only non-time-travel-causing FTL journeys were possible (so your FTL drive mysteriously stops working when you try certain trips). And yes, of course, when I say 'time-travel', I mean into the past. Travelling into the future, no matter how fast, causes no problems. Or does it? This vexing idea that there is no such thing as 'simultaneous' has got my head spinning. If you FTL travel to a far place that is in a different reference frame, where time is going at a different rate, then back again, can you have you travelled backward in time? I really don't know. Intuitively, it would seem you can't possibly arrive before you left, but ... >< Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 19:21:39 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 12:21:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Time Travel and FTL flight In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 12:09 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 03/09/2021 18:11, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > The matter at hand was the objection that FTL always causes time travel, > which I believe is not a true claim. > > What I was trying to say was, if FTL travel *can* result in time-travel, > then that means that FTL travel is not possible (on the premise that > time-travel is not possible), not that it always does. > > Unless, somehow, only non-time-travel-causing FTL journeys were possible > (so your FTL drive mysteriously stops working when you try certain trips). > Alternatively: some proposed forms of FTL could result in time travel. Those particular forms of FTL are not possible. This has no effect on other proposed forms of FTL. This is not dependent on where you go (that is: not just for certain trips), only how you go. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sat Sep 4 05:32:38 2021 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 07:32:38 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Time Travel and FTL flight In-Reply-To: <80e3f627-afcf-8822-ff57-c68ef02702dc@zaiboc.net> References: <80e3f627-afcf-8822-ff57-c68ef02702dc@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 11:25 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Thu, 2 Sept 2021 at 18:02, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > > But clearly it is not time travel > > So Adrian, are you saying that FTL flight wouldn't involve time-travel? > Einstein's special relativity says that If you travel FTL, some legitimate observers would see you arriving before leaving. Therefore, according to many scientists, you can't travel faster than light. Quantum entanglement doesn't seem limited by the speed of light (experimental fact) but many scientists are persuaded that quantum entanglement can't be used to send signals (or things, or people) FTL. There are examples of paradox-free time travel to the past. Time will tell. I guess both FTL travel and time travel to the past will be possible at some point. We are still babies in the universe. > I thought that under certain circumstances it would (specifically FTL travel to a location that was accelerating away at a significant rate relative to the point of departure, then FTL return. I think). Or is there no problem, and it's just the simple fact that nothing with mass can travel at, or faster than, light-speed that stops us being able to do it? (and tricks like Acubierre Drive, if it could exist, would work without causing paradoxes)? > > Ben > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -- Giulio Prisco Writer, futurist, sometime philosopher. Author of: Tales of the Turing Church Futurist spaceflight meditations https://giulioprisco.com/ https://www.turingchurch.com/ https://turingchurch.net/ From henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com Sat Sep 4 11:31:00 2021 From: henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com (Henrik Ohrstrom) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 13:31:00 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Darw^H^H^Hcovid days are here to stay Message-ID: Here in ?rebro sweden, we now have 77.6% of the population with 2 doses of mainly pfizer or modern vaccine and an amount unknown to me Astra. + 80% have one dose. https://www.svt.se/datajournalistik/corona-vaccin/ Now we begin to see the future as it will be. Based on what happens in the community (?rebro area because that's where I live and work, with intensive care btw.) Covid-19-20-21-n will stay as one of many colds. With or without vaccination, sooner or later there will be an infectious contact with the virus. Vaccinated people get a troublesome cold or worse, a common cold without any problems. The unvaccinated will meet the vaccinated "cold" sooner or later, not a maybe but just how long you can isolate yourself. Then it slams and you get to enjoy a prima vista experience of coronaviri. Toddlers will maintain the virus in kindergarten as one of all childhood fevers to the general delight and unpleasant death of the vulnerable. Intensive care right now contains an annoying number of sick people with the autumn / school start wave already underway and those who are panting and dying now are (drum roll) unvaccinated. The next wave is on its way and it is chlorine in the gene pool for the vaccine skeptics. Darwin days are here to stay. On the plus side, contact reduction does work, otherwise we would have burnt through the entire population by now. Killing a majority of our senior citizens. Mortality in covid primary infection is >30% for +80 years old. Would have taken care of some pension problems no? Happy happy joy joy. /Henrik -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Sep 4 20:54:27 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 15:54:27 -0500 Subject: [ExI] research into regrowth Message-ID: Here's one that really fascinates me. There are creatures who can regrow limbs, tails, or even heads. (I don't know if I would like that last option to be available to people, but I can think of many people who need it desperately. Just wipe the slate clean and start again.) Of course I have no idea how much money is spent on this research, but whatever it is it could be more. Then I see no reason why it could not be applied to regrowing internal organs in situ - liver, heart, kidneys, whatever. Big brain tumor: cut the whole lobe out and grow another one. And whatever happened to the research in the cool chemical light lightning bugs put out ? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sun Sep 5 20:32:41 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 13:32:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] , question for Max or anyone In-Reply-To: <010c01d7a026$ef62f400$ce28dc00$@rainier66.com> References: <75f1640a-235f-167a-ebea-b765806fee82@zaiboc.net> <010c01d7a026$ef62f400$ce28dc00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, the story of your great grandmother made me think of a "comic book/graphic novel" I bought at a thrift store several years ago. It was created by an award winning comic strip artist (whose name currently eludes me) who used his artistic talents to show the intense farmwork that he and his brothers did on his parent's farm, back in the 1930's. It was an almost overwhelming litany of tasks that they needed to do to keep things going! I gave my copy to my landlord at the time, who had had a similar boyhood experience, and he was amazed by the memoir. I remember having a church leader who liked to say, "no one ever died from hard work!" Lol Now for many modern day people in the first world that may apply, but certainly over the course of history, many human beings have died from over exertion! And this can happen whether a person is a white collar or blue collar worker. The Japanese come to mind... John On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 11:22 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of > Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > > > > On 02/09/2021 00:30, bill w asked: > > > > >> Is money being spent wisely in the tech industry? Are they spending > > ... > > >> spending enough money on Longevity research. > > > > > > > > > > > > >...Not only will that benefit the human race, it will make a cubic > buttload (to employ a Spikeism) of money... > > > > Hey cool a double win. > > > > > > > > > > >...Why isn't there a lot more longevity research? I can only think it's > simple short-sightedness. Ben > > > > > > Ben I would suggest it is because there isn't enough money in it. There > is money to be made for sure, but not enough of it. > > > > Optimistist?s view: there is a lot of R&D going into that and it is making > cubic buttloads, but it isn't easily recognizable as longevity research. > It is focused not so much on making us live longer but in looking better > and being more alive while we are living. > > > > Consider this photo of my great grandmother that I took as a small child > age 6. She is 81 in that photo. Great granny did everything right even by > today?s health standards: she never smoked, never drank alcohol, clean > living, plenty of exercise running her farm. By today?s standards, 81 > isn?t particularly old, but this was the last year she still had the > strength to do what she is doing in this photo (inquiries welcome.) She > expired about a year later. > > > > In those days, men were generally worn out before they ever reached 80. > Her husband made it to 65 and perished for no particular reason other than > men just pretty much were used up by that age back then. > > > > Compare that (really not long ago) to a 60 year old man today. Compare a > typical 81 year old woman then and now. In most cases, we are just more > alive at any given age than our counterparts even 50 years ago, and > definitely 100 years ago. Perhaps much of it has to do with our still > having teeth after age 50. Far too many of the old timers did not. > > > > Whatever we are doing now is adding years to our lives and adding life to > our years. > > > > Our health dollars are doing something. > > > > spike > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 31846 bytes Desc: not available URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sun Sep 5 20:35:01 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 13:35:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] research into regrowth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My understanding is that due to the many troops who lost limbs during the past several decades of American military adventurism, Darpa is investing a great deal of time and money into trying to figure out how to make human bodies regenerate. I wish them luck! John On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 1:59 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Here's one that really fascinates me. There are creatures who can regrow > limbs, tails, or even heads. (I don't know if I would like that last > option to be available to people, but I can think of many people who need > it desperately. Just wipe the slate clean and start again.) Of course I > have no idea how much money is spent on this research, but whatever it is > it could be more. Then I see no reason why it could not be applied to > regrowing internal organs in situ - liver, heart, kidneys, whatever. Big > brain tumor: cut the whole lobe out and grow another one. > > And whatever happened to the research in the cool chemical light lightning > bugs put out ? bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sun Sep 5 20:37:23 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 13:37:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] abba is back: the wicked coolest thing in years In-Reply-To: <000501d7a0e7$2761a840$7624f8c0$@rainier66.com> References: <005801d7a0e0$bf4bbfd0$3de33f70$@rainier66.com> <000501d7a0e7$2761a840$7624f8c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: That squirrel is obviously an Elvis impersonator! Lol On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 10:23 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* spike at rainier66.com > *Sent:* Friday, September 3, 2021 9:29 AM > *To:* 'ExI chat list' > *Cc:* 'Cc:' > *Subject:* abba is back: the wicked coolest thing in years > > > > > > > > > > >?Check this: they have simulated or digitally recreated the young ABBA? > > > > ABBA Voyage Official Website - 2022 ABBA Concert in London > > > > > ? > > > > >?Dancing queen, young and sweet, only seventyyyyyyy? > > > > >?Oh mercy I love living in our times. > > > > >?spike > > > > > > I did the math. The original not-yet-legal Dancing Queen would be only 62 > now. > > > > This link has new significance for the younger crowd who may have missed > this the first time around, nearly 20 yrs ago: > > > > https://www.imdb.com/video/vi1216872729?playlistId=tt0258153&ref_=tt_ov_vi > > > > This is the only case I know where Al Pacino did a comedy, and a SciFi at > that. Brilliant range for that man. Those unfamiliar with 2002 computer > tech may miss some of the sight gags in there, but it?s a fun romp anyway. > > > > spike > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sun Sep 5 20:43:43 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 13:43:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] question for Max or anyone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: William Flynn Wallace wrote: "It's just an idle question, Adrian. I don't have long to live, probably, and want to know something about the near future. That's all this is. It is not useless to me." It disturbs me when I see an Extropy list member writing, "I don't have long to live..." Aren't we supposed to live forever around here, by ascending into amazing posthuman forms? Someone get this man the necessary singularity technology that he needs! If only... John On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 4:58 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > It's just an idle question, Adrian. I don't have long to live, probably, > and want to know something about the near future. That's all this is. It > is not useless to me. bill w > > On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 6:42 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> The things that they get to - and we don't get to - say what they spend >> money on. >> >> Which makes discussion and angsting about it, useless. >> >> On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 4:14 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Is money being spent wisely in the tech industry? Are they spending too >>> much on things that will make a lot of money as compared to something that >>> will really advance knowledge? What are they not spending enough money on? >>> >>> bill w >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sun Sep 5 20:48:01 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 13:48:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] quote of the day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As far as I am concerned, that one line by Douglas Adams established his place as a comedy genius. I also liked what he had to say about the pursuit of money... John On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 7:28 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Douglas Adams; > > ?The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has > made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move? > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Sun Sep 5 06:46:56 2021 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2021 23:46:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] abba is back: the wicked coolest thing in years In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20210904234656.Horde.tdJ11DiypftbAZl78jn95Js@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting BillK: > On Fri, 3 Sept 2021 at 17:33, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >> >> Check this: they have simulated or digitally recreated the young >> ABBA, one of my favorite rock groups from my tragically misspent >> youth: >> Dancing queen, young and sweet, only seventyyyyyyy? >> Oh mercy I love living in our times. >> >> spike >> _______________________________________________ > > > The animals love that music too!! Squirrels may very well love Abba, but that particular squirrel is clearly telling some heavenly, aerial, or otherwise flying creature to "bugger off!" in Greek and half a dozen other languages: https://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20210903/1f95a6f6/attachment-0001.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountza Just saying . . . ;-) Stuart LaForge From giulio at gmail.com Sun Sep 5 10:55:38 2021 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 12:55:38 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Bitcoin el salvador? In-Reply-To: <20210905105046.1.37a74a61ce69a55e62d414ba6ef82ef7@mg1.substack.com> References: <20210905105046.1.37a74a61ce69a55e62d414ba6ef82ef7@mg1.substack.com> Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Giulio Prisco from Turing Church Date: Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 12:50 PM Subject: Bitcoin el salvador? To: No Bitcoin won't Save The World, but perhaps it will make the world a bit better. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Bitcoin el salvador? No Bitcoin won't Save The World, but perhaps it will make the world a bit better. Giulio Prisco Sep 5 [image: Comment] [image: Share] I was a very early adopter of Bitcoin. I started weeks after Satoshi?s whitepaper magically appeared in a cryptography mailing list. If I still had the BTC that I mined at the time I would be very rich today, but I wanted to use and spend my BTC to stimulate the nascent Bitcoin economy. I have written Bitcoin software, consulted and participated in many projects. For years I made a good living as a journalist and editor for the Bitcoin trade press. Been there, done that. At some point I lost interest and stopped. What pushed me out was the attitude of those for whom Bitcoin was the most important things in the world. Or maybe the only important thing. Or maybe the God of their religion. I have edited (out) suggestions that wars and natural or social catastrophes were ?good for Bitcoin? and therefore Good. Good! With an exclamation mark of course. Many exclamation marks. I really wish for less exclamation marks and more question marks in the Bitcoin press. At some point I was really fed up. In fact, this is the first post about Bitcoin that I have written in years. No, Bitcoin is NOT the most important thing in the world. Sorry for the true believers in the Bitcoin God out there, but many things are much more important than Bitcoin. MUCH more important. Having said that, I think Bitcoin IS important. Not the most important thing, but an important thing. Bitcoin is also a good example of how radical, unexpected technological innovation can be a social force for good. A parallel economy relatively independent of Big Government and Big Business, with working interfaces to the mainstream economy, can do good to many people. And this is the role of Bitcoin in my religion: one of many tools that we can use to make the world a bit better. And we can use all our tools together to make the world much better, a little bit a time. El Salvador I used to say that Bitcoin would really take off after being adopted by a nation state (even a small one) as official currency. Not a new cryptocurrency issued by a central bank (like China is doing), but the real Bitcoin independent of nations and central banks. This is what is expected to happen in El Salvador in a few days. There are dissenting voices and event protests of course , so we?ll have to wait and see what happens. But this could be a real game changer. Poor families in El Salvador could live with Bitcoin remittances sent from family members abroad. This happens already of course, but will be much easier and safer when Bitcoin is officially supported by the government. I took the cover picture at a place that accepts Bitcoin in a food market. These places exist everywhere, but only tech-savvy people can buy there. If the Bitcoin plan in El Salvador goes through as planned, eventually everyone will be able to use Bitcoin to buy food and things. El Salvador could become a player and a first mover in the new economy that, one way or another, is bound to emerge. It?s evident that things can?t continue as they are now. We need to experiment with many alternative economies. Many will fail the real-world test, but some will work. The move of El Salvador could enable and protect many new business models that are only waiting for something like this to happen. This would attract wealthy foreign investors to the country. I?ll hopefully wait and see is Bitcoin will become el salvador (the savior) of El Salvador, and then of other nations as well. ------------------------------ Cover picture by the author. [image: Comment] [image: Share] Thanks for subscribing to Turing Church . This post is public, so feel free to share it. Share ? 2021 Giulio Prisco Unsubscribe 111 Sutter Street, 7th Floor, San Francisco, CA 94104 [image: Publish on Substack] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Sep 5 13:34:04 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 06:34:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] research into regrowth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003f01d7a25a$b2668ae0$1733a0a0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] research into regrowth >?Here's one that really fascinates me. There are creatures who can regrow limbs, tails, or even heads? We have that in a very limited sense, but so far it only works on some tissues such as knee cartilage. Regardless of what organs we figure out how to regrow, we know for sure it starts with stem cells. There is plenty of research going into stem cells. >?And whatever happened to the research in the cool chemical light lightning bugs put out ? bill w We have that. Those glow sticks in the emergency kit in the trunk of your car uses technology which was a spinoff of that branch of research. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Sep 5 14:18:47 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 07:18:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] , question for Max or anyone In-Reply-To: References: <75f1640a-235f-167a-ebea-b765806fee82@zaiboc.net> <010c01d7a026$ef62f400$ce28dc00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005e01d7a260$f1b378b0$d51a6a10$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Grigg via extropy-chat ? >?I remember having a church leader who liked to say, "no one ever died from hard work!" Ja, the hell they didn?t. In the old days, pleeeenty of people died as an indirect result of farm accidents and just wore out early because of accumulated injury from farming. The husband of that lady in the photo was a perfect example: he had a persistent infection we think was caused by a particle of some kind left behind from a puncture wound from one of his pieces of equipment. Back when horses and mules were used to pull equipment, it was even more dangerous. Those beasts have their own opinions on how things should be done, and they sometimes express that. >?Lol Now for many modern day people in the first world that may apply? John We transitioned directly from the dangers of physical overwork to the dangers of physical underwork. Now our muscles are soft and unaccustomed to labor, including the one which pushes the blood thru the extra flab. I do not exclude myself. I walk to school with my son. Last week we started, I realized I forgot something, ran back to fetch that, ran to catch up. My FitBit started buzzing, gently inquiring as to my condition, seeing numbers it has never seen in years. Then an idea occurred to me? Next post, different topic. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Sep 5 14:25:55 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 07:25:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] , question for Max or anyone In-Reply-To: <005e01d7a260$f1b378b0$d51a6a10$@rainier66.com> References: <75f1640a-235f-167a-ebea-b765806fee82@zaiboc.net> <010c01d7a026$ef62f400$ce28dc00$@rainier66.com> <005e01d7a260$f1b378b0$d51a6a10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006b01d7a261$f0be26c0$d23a7440$@rainier66.com> >?I realized I forgot something, ran back to fetch that, ran to catch up. My FitBit started buzzing, gently inquiring as to my condition, seeing numbers it has never seen in years. >?Then an idea occurred to me? >?Next post, different topic. >?spike A lot of us have these watches that can monitor one?s pulse and some other vitals to some extent. They communicate with our phones. Our phones know where we are, even when they aren?t being used. Scenario: out for a walk, fibrillation or a seizure or something, FitBit senses something is up, alerts phone, phone calls emergency contact: Hey can you come remove this prole?s cooling remains, or haul it off to the hospital if it is still breathing? Think of the cost savings in ambulances alone. My bride could fetch me, take me right up to the local fire station where their emergency response team has more stuff than you can imagine to keep a feller going until they can pick out the appropriate spot and dig a nice hole. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Sep 5 14:42:50 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 15:42:50 +0100 Subject: [ExI] , question for Max or anyone In-Reply-To: <005e01d7a260$f1b378b0$d51a6a10$@rainier66.com> References: <75f1640a-235f-167a-ebea-b765806fee82@zaiboc.net> <010c01d7a026$ef62f400$ce28dc00$@rainier66.com> <005e01d7a260$f1b378b0$d51a6a10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Sept 2021 at 15:23, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Grigg via extropy-chat > >?I remember having a church leader who liked to say, "no one ever died from hard work!" > > Ja, the hell they didn?t. In the old days, pleeeenty of people died as an indirect result of farm accidents and just wore out early because of accumulated injury from farming. The husband of that lady in the photo was a perfect example: he had a persistent infection we think was caused by a particle of some kind left behind from a puncture wound from one of his pieces of equipment. Back when horses and mules were used to pull equipment, it was even more dangerous. Those beasts have their own opinions on how things should be done, and they sometimes express that. > > spike > _______________________________________________ Second that! Many of my ancestors worked as coal miners from about 1830 onwards. That was before any power tools. Pick and shovel, kneeling in cramped tunnels. If the many dangers didn't kill you, the survivors got black lung disease that permanently disabled them. Doing your family tree is an eye-opener to the terrible conditions in olden times. (Or present day conditions in some undeveloped countries). BillK From atymes at gmail.com Sun Sep 5 15:08:13 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 08:08:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] , question for Max or anyone In-Reply-To: <006b01d7a261$f0be26c0$d23a7440$@rainier66.com> References: <75f1640a-235f-167a-ebea-b765806fee82@zaiboc.net> <010c01d7a026$ef62f400$ce28dc00$@rainier66.com> <005e01d7a260$f1b378b0$d51a6a10$@rainier66.com> <006b01d7a261$f0be26c0$d23a7440$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 5, 2021, 7:28 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > A lot of us have these watches that can monitor one?s pulse and some other > vitals to some extent. They communicate with our phones. Our phones know > where we are, even when they aren?t being used. > > > > Scenario: out for a walk, fibrillation or a seizure or something, FitBit > senses something is up, alerts phone, phone calls emergency contact: Hey > can you come remove this prole?s cooling remains, or haul it off to the > hospital if it is still breathing? > > > > Think of the cost savings in ambulances alone. My bride could fetch me, > take me right up to the local fire station where their emergency response > team has more stuff than you can imagine to keep a feller going until they > can pick out the appropriate spot and dig a nice hole. > Most people are not available 24x7 to be emergency medical transport. That's why we have ambulances in the first place. But perhaps a phone could summon an ambulance, if the problem detection was accurate enough. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Sep 5 16:13:51 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 09:13:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] , question for Max or anyone In-Reply-To: References: <75f1640a-235f-167a-ebea-b765806fee82@zaiboc.net> <010c01d7a026$ef62f400$ce28dc00$@rainier66.com> <005e01d7a260$f1b378b0$d51a6a10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001101d7a271$04696860$0d3c3920$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat ... _______________________________________________ >...Second that! Many of my ancestors worked as coal miners from about 1830 onwards. That was before any power tools. Pick and shovel, kneeling in cramped tunnels. If the many dangers didn't kill you, the survivors got black lung disease that permanently disabled them. Doing your family tree is an eye-opener to the terrible conditions in olden times. (Or present day conditions in some undeveloped countries). BillK _______________________________________________ Hashtg Metoo BillK. I did genealogy and found lotsa cool stuff. My ancestors were doing coal mining well up into the 20th century. One of them was doing pick and shovel mining when he was in a bad slate fall which he survived but it crippled him for life. After a coupla years he was recovered enough to go back to work, but he was a mining equipment operator after that. A grandfather grew up on a farm, so he knew the difference between mules and horses for plowing. Mules don't have horse sense. A horse is too hard to turn around at the end of a field, because it makes no sense: you just came from that direction. A mule doesn't have horse sense and consequently, is either too stupid to realize you just came from that direction or knows that obviously the ground must be broken by the bull-tongue plow, facilitating penetration of the roots of the future alfalfa crop, resulting in abundant life-sustaining hay. No one really knows if the mule is thinking of nurturing future alfalfa or is too stupid to realize he has been turned thru pi radians. spike From spike at rainier66.com Sun Sep 5 16:18:25 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 09:18:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] , question for Max or anyone In-Reply-To: References: <75f1640a-235f-167a-ebea-b765806fee82@zaiboc.net> <010c01d7a026$ef62f400$ce28dc00$@rainier66.com> <005e01d7a260$f1b378b0$d51a6a10$@rainier66.com> <006b01d7a261$f0be26c0$d23a7440$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001201d7a271$a83552b0$f89ff810$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat ubject: Re: [ExI] , question for Max or anyone On Sun, Sep 5, 2021, 7:28 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >>?Think of the cost savings in ambulances alone. My bride could fetch me, take me right up to the local fire station where their emergency response team has more stuff than you can imagine ? >?Most people are not available 24x7 to be emergency medical transport. That's why we have ambulances in the first place. >?But perhaps a phone could summon an ambulance, if the problem detection was accurate enough? Adrian you perhaps know the order of magnitude price delta between a consumer device and a device which is med-qualified. Your mother is a doctor as I recall. She may know how much anything allowed in a hospital must meet reliability standards that have been set to absurd levels. If a watch could alert the parameds, we couldn?t afford them. If one is set to call next-of-kin and we accept that it might not work, or might send the occasional false alarm, they need not be med-certified and are ordinary consumer items. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Sep 5 17:29:19 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 10:29:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] , question for Max or anyone In-Reply-To: <001201d7a271$a83552b0$f89ff810$@rainier66.com> References: <75f1640a-235f-167a-ebea-b765806fee82@zaiboc.net> <010c01d7a026$ef62f400$ce28dc00$@rainier66.com> <005e01d7a260$f1b378b0$d51a6a10$@rainier66.com> <006b01d7a261$f0be26c0$d23a7440$@rainier66.com> <001201d7a271$a83552b0$f89ff810$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 9:25 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Adrian you perhaps know the order of magnitude price delta between a > consumer device and a device which is med-qualified. Your mother is a > doctor as I recall. She may know how much anything allowed in a hospital > must meet reliability standards that have been set to absurd levels. > Yes. I also know how much Moore's Law has driven down prices of electronics, countering this increase, to the point that some med-qualified electronics are practically consumer-budget. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Sep 5 17:43:23 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 10:43:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] , question for Max or anyone In-Reply-To: References: <75f1640a-235f-167a-ebea-b765806fee82@zaiboc.net> <010c01d7a026$ef62f400$ce28dc00$@rainier66.com> <005e01d7a260$f1b378b0$d51a6a10$@rainier66.com> <006b01d7a261$f0be26c0$d23a7440$@rainier66.com> <001201d7a271$a83552b0$f89ff810$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002201d7a27d$864ffe00$92effa00$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] , question for Max or anyone On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 9:25 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: Adrian you perhaps know the order of magnitude price delta between a consumer device and a device which is med-qualified. Your mother is a doctor as I recall. She may know how much anything allowed in a hospital must meet reliability standards that have been set to absurd levels. >?Yes. I also know how much Moore's Law has driven down prices of electronics, countering this increase, to the point that some med-qualified electronics are practically consumer-budget? Adrian, Moore?s law only applies to the cost of the electronic device, not to the cost of getting any device qualified for use as a medical instrument. The cost of med-qualification has risen dramatically and continues to rise, as the cost of the device drops to an insignificant fraction of the price tag. Best way around that: make sure that the device itself cannot alert or trigger an alert to the actual people who can be there first and help the most. See to it that it only alerts those who will go into a useless panic and run in chaotic circles. Then we can afford the device. If Moore?s law drove the price of the watch all the way down to free, we still couldn?t afford one which was med-qualified. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Sep 5 18:18:40 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 13:18:40 -0500 Subject: [ExI] , question for Max or anyone In-Reply-To: <001101d7a271$04696860$0d3c3920$@rainier66.com> References: <75f1640a-235f-167a-ebea-b765806fee82@zaiboc.net> <010c01d7a026$ef62f400$ce28dc00$@rainier66.com> <005e01d7a260$f1b378b0$d51a6a10$@rainier66.com> <001101d7a271$04696860$0d3c3920$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: But in this way, mules are smarter than horses: horses will run or work themselves to death and a mule or donkey won't. It will just stand there and take all the whipping you want to give it. It knows its limits. A horse doesn't. bill w On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 11:17 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of > BillK via extropy-chat > ... _______________________________________________ > > > >...Second that! Many of my ancestors worked as coal miners from about > 1830 onwards. That was before any power tools. Pick and shovel, kneeling > in cramped tunnels. If the many dangers didn't kill you, the survivors got > black lung disease that permanently disabled them. > Doing your family tree is an eye-opener to the terrible conditions in > olden times. > (Or present day conditions in some undeveloped countries). > > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > > > Hashtg Metoo BillK. I did genealogy and found lotsa cool stuff. My > ancestors were doing coal mining well up into the 20th century. One of > them was doing pick and shovel mining when he was in a bad slate fall which > he survived but it crippled him for life. After a coupla years he was > recovered enough to go back to work, but he was a mining equipment operator > after that. > > A grandfather grew up on a farm, so he knew the difference between mules > and horses for plowing. Mules don't have horse sense. A horse is too hard > to turn around at the end of a field, because it makes no sense: you just > came from that direction. > > A mule doesn't have horse sense and consequently, is either too stupid to > realize you just came from that direction or knows that obviously the > ground must be broken by the bull-tongue plow, facilitating penetration of > the roots of the future alfalfa crop, resulting in abundant life-sustaining > hay. No one really knows if the mule is thinking of nurturing future > alfalfa or is too stupid to realize he has been turned thru pi radians. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Sep 5 18:28:06 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 11:28:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] , question for Max or anyone In-Reply-To: References: <75f1640a-235f-167a-ebea-b765806fee82@zaiboc.net> <010c01d7a026$ef62f400$ce28dc00$@rainier66.com> <005e01d7a260$f1b378b0$d51a6a10$@rainier66.com> <001101d7a271$04696860$0d3c3920$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003201d7a283$c5bf19d0$513d4d70$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] , question for Max or anyone >?But in this way, mules are smarter than horses: horses will run or work themselves to death and a mule or donkey won't. It will just stand there and take all the whipping you want to give it. It knows its limits. A horse doesn't. bill w Ja. Horse sense can go either way. But we can?t tell which way it went because we don?t know what either the mule or the horse is thinking, if anything. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Sep 5 18:28:19 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 19:28:19 +0100 Subject: [ExI] , question for Max or anyone In-Reply-To: <002201d7a27d$864ffe00$92effa00$@rainier66.com> References: <75f1640a-235f-167a-ebea-b765806fee82@zaiboc.net> <010c01d7a026$ef62f400$ce28dc00$@rainier66.com> <005e01d7a260$f1b378b0$d51a6a10$@rainier66.com> <006b01d7a261$f0be26c0$d23a7440$@rainier66.com> <001201d7a271$a83552b0$f89ff810$@rainier66.com> <002201d7a27d$864ffe00$92effa00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Sept 2021 at 18:47, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > Adrian, Moore?s law only applies to the cost of the electronic device, not to the cost of getting any device qualified for use as a medical instrument. The cost of med-qualification has risen dramatically and continues to rise, as the cost of the device drops to an insignificant fraction of the price tag. > > Best way around that: make sure that the device itself cannot alert or trigger an alert to the actual people who can be there first and help the most. See to it that it only alerts those who will go into a useless panic and run in chaotic circles. Then we can afford the device. > > If Moore?s law drove the price of the watch all the way down to free, we still couldn?t afford one which was med-qualified. > > spike > _______________________________________________ That claim sounds odd to me. It is the model that is certified, not every device. If Fitbit are selling 10 million devices each year, the med qualification cost can be covered by only adding a small amount to the cost of each individual device. BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Sep 5 18:34:38 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 13:34:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] , question for Max or anyone In-Reply-To: <003201d7a283$c5bf19d0$513d4d70$@rainier66.com> References: <75f1640a-235f-167a-ebea-b765806fee82@zaiboc.net> <010c01d7a026$ef62f400$ce28dc00$@rainier66.com> <005e01d7a260$f1b378b0$d51a6a10$@rainier66.com> <001101d7a271$04696860$0d3c3920$@rainier66.com> <003201d7a283$c5bf19d0$513d4d70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I am with you: who knows what they are thinking? It's just like people: you have go on their behavior, not some fallible insight into what they are thinking. But it's pretty clear when horses dies of overwork and mules don't. bill w On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 1:30 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] , question for Max or anyone > > > > >?But in this way, mules are smarter than horses: horses will run or > work themselves to death and a mule or donkey won't. It will just stand > there and take all the whipping you want to give it. It knows its limits. > A horse doesn't. bill w > > > > > > Ja. Horse sense can go either way. But we can?t tell which way it went > because we don?t know what either the mule or the horse is thinking, if > anything. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Sep 5 19:26:28 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 12:26:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] , question for Max or anyone In-Reply-To: References: <75f1640a-235f-167a-ebea-b765806fee82@zaiboc.net> <010c01d7a026$ef62f400$ce28dc00$@rainier66.com> <005e01d7a260$f1b378b0$d51a6a10$@rainier66.com> <006b01d7a261$f0be26c0$d23a7440$@rainier66.com> <001201d7a271$a83552b0$f89ff810$@rainier66.com> <002201d7a27d$864ffe00$92effa00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001501d7a28b$ed1243b0$c736cb10$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Sent: Sunday, September 5, 2021 11:28 AM Subject: Re: [ExI] , question for Max or anyone On Sun, 5 Sept 2021 at 18:47, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > ... > > If Moore?s law drove the price of the watch all the way down to free, we still couldn?t afford one which was med-qualified. > > spike > _______________________________________________ That claim sounds odd to me. It is the model that is certified, not every device. If Fitbit are selling 10 million devices each year, the med qualification cost can be covered by only adding a small amount to the cost of each individual device...BillK _______________________________________________ BillK, on the contrary sir. To have a med-certified device, the suppliers of the components must also be certified by some standard such as ISO9000 for high-reliability devices, a very general class of certification to which FitBit does not conform. The manufacturing process itself must be controlled, and there are multiple costs involved. During the impressive rise of FitBit, a patient came in with fibrillation. The treatment for that differs based on how long the fibrillation has been going on. He was one who had an app which would take periodic readings from his FitBit and archive it using his phone. Upon his arrival at the ER, the doctors downloaded his FitBit file and made a decision based on that data, assuming it to be accurate (the patient didn't know or couldn't tell the medics how long the condition had been present.) Afterwards, a very logical question arose: if a consumer-level device is used by doctors, then it becomes a defacto medical instrument, and as such would require med-certification. FitBit steadfastly maintains that the device is accurate but its reliability is not sufficient to be used in this manner. The watch nor the phone manufacturers may not be sued for practicing medicine without a license, for they are intended as consumer-level devices. They cannot be sued if they fail. They are accurate and reliable, but not certified. Likewise, if people have life-sustaining equipment in their home, the equipment itself is med-certified but the power to drive it is not. If the power fails and the patient dies, it cannot sue the power company posthumously. FitBit is a consumer-level manufacturer and will stay that way. We could create an app to alert the next of kin in a heart emergency, but not to alert anyone likely to be of any real assistance, for that would put the device in a new and unaffordable category. spike From atymes at gmail.com Sun Sep 5 19:36:07 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 12:36:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] , question for Max or anyone In-Reply-To: <002201d7a27d$864ffe00$92effa00$@rainier66.com> References: <75f1640a-235f-167a-ebea-b765806fee82@zaiboc.net> <010c01d7a026$ef62f400$ce28dc00$@rainier66.com> <005e01d7a260$f1b378b0$d51a6a10$@rainier66.com> <006b01d7a261$f0be26c0$d23a7440$@rainier66.com> <001201d7a271$a83552b0$f89ff810$@rainier66.com> <002201d7a27d$864ffe00$92effa00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 10:45 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] , question for Max or anyone > > > > On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 9:25 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Adrian you perhaps know the order of magnitude price delta between a > consumer device and a device which is med-qualified. Your mother is a > doctor as I recall. She may know how much anything allowed in a hospital > must meet reliability standards that have been set to absurd levels. > > > > >?Yes. I also know how much Moore's Law has driven down prices of > electronics, countering this increase, to the point that some med-qualified > electronics are practically consumer-budget? > > > > > > Adrian, Moore?s law only applies to the cost of the electronic device, not > to the cost of getting any device qualified for use as a medical > instrument. The cost of med-qualification has risen dramatically and > continues to rise, as the cost of the device drops to an insignificant > fraction of the price tag. > Perhaps it is not entirely Moore's Law. Better amortization - the ability to distribute such one-off costs among more units - has also lowered the per-unit costs. (This is one of the economic advantages of a larger population.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Sep 5 19:54:45 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 14:54:45 -0500 Subject: [ExI] , question for Max or anyone In-Reply-To: <001501d7a28b$ed1243b0$c736cb10$@rainier66.com> References: <75f1640a-235f-167a-ebea-b765806fee82@zaiboc.net> <010c01d7a026$ef62f400$ce28dc00$@rainier66.com> <005e01d7a260$f1b378b0$d51a6a10$@rainier66.com> <006b01d7a261$f0be26c0$d23a7440$@rainier66.com> <001201d7a271$a83552b0$f89ff810$@rainier66.com> <002201d7a27d$864ffe00$92effa00$@rainier66.com> <001501d7a28b$ed1243b0$c736cb10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: We could create an app to alert the next of kin in a heart emergency, but not to alert anyone likely to be of any real assistance, for that would put the device in a new and unaffordable category. spike I was looking forward to finding out how my Apple watch and my iPhone could partner and call 911 Now you say it can't be done? bill w On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 2:29 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat > Sent: Sunday, September 5, 2021 11:28 AM > Subject: Re: [ExI] , question for Max or anyone > > On Sun, 5 Sept 2021 at 18:47, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > ... > > > > If Moore?s law drove the price of the watch all the way down to free, we > still couldn?t afford one which was med-qualified. > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > > > That claim sounds odd to me. It is the model that is certified, not every > device. If Fitbit are selling 10 million devices each year, the med > qualification cost can be covered by only adding a small amount to the cost > of each individual device...BillK > > _______________________________________________ > > > BillK, on the contrary sir. > > To have a med-certified device, the suppliers of the components must also > be certified by some standard such as ISO9000 for high-reliability devices, > a very general class of certification to which FitBit does not conform. > The manufacturing process itself must be controlled, and there are multiple > costs involved. > > During the impressive rise of FitBit, a patient came in with > fibrillation. The treatment for that differs based on how long the > fibrillation has been going on. He was one who had an app which would take > periodic readings from his FitBit and archive it using his phone. Upon his > arrival at the ER, the doctors downloaded his FitBit file and made a > decision based on that data, assuming it to be accurate (the patient didn't > know or couldn't tell the medics how long the condition had been present.) > > Afterwards, a very logical question arose: if a consumer-level device is > used by doctors, then it becomes a defacto medical instrument, and as such > would require med-certification. FitBit steadfastly maintains that the > device is accurate but its reliability is not sufficient to be used in this > manner. > > The watch nor the phone manufacturers may not be sued for practicing > medicine without a license, for they are intended as consumer-level > devices. They cannot be sued if they fail. They are accurate and > reliable, but not certified. Likewise, if people have life-sustaining > equipment in their home, the equipment itself is med-certified but the > power to drive it is not. If the power fails and the patient dies, it > cannot sue the power company posthumously. > > FitBit is a consumer-level manufacturer and will stay that way. > > We could create an app to alert the next of kin in a heart emergency, but > not to alert anyone likely to be of any real assistance, for that would put > the device in a new and unaffordable category. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Sep 5 20:09:32 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 13:09:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] , question for Max or anyone In-Reply-To: References: <75f1640a-235f-167a-ebea-b765806fee82@zaiboc.net> <010c01d7a026$ef62f400$ce28dc00$@rainier66.com> <005e01d7a260$f1b378b0$d51a6a10$@rainier66.com> <006b01d7a261$f0be26c0$d23a7440$@rainier66.com> <001201d7a271$a83552b0$f89ff810$@rainier66.com> <002201d7a27d$864ffe00$92effa00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003901d7a291$f12ec210$d38c4630$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] , question for Max or anyone On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 10:45 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: ?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] , question for Max or anyone ? Adrian, Moore?s law only applies to the cost of the electronic device, not to the cost of getting any device qualified for use as a medical instrument. The cost of med-qualification has risen dramatically and continues to rise, as the cost of the device drops to an insignificant fraction of the price tag. >?Perhaps it is not entirely Moore's Law. Better amortization - the ability to distribute such one-off costs among more units - has also lowered the per-unit costs. (This is one of the economic advantages of a larger population.) Under medical certification rules, every supplier must have periodic inspections and proof of compliance. This compliance costs way more than manufacturing the devices. To demonstrate what deep sacrifices I am willing to make in order to demonstrate a point to my own internet friends, I chose to endure weeks of pop up ads trying to sell me an endoscope by Googling on fiber optic endoscopes. Back in the 90s, the consumer-level endoscopes showed up and we bought one for our lab at the Lazy L ranch. The packaging was cram full of warnings that the device was NOT medically certified, that you MAY NOT use to poke it up your rear because it IS NOT MEDICALLY CERTIFIED, nor to use it to look down your damn throat because it is NOT certified for that use (but if you do those things with it, don?t do them in that order.) Well hell, of course we wanted to look in those places, but knowing that we all wanted to use it for that, we never did the latter, not because it lacked medical certification but rather because we didn?t know where that endoscope had already been. We did see the term ?endoscope? however, and there was little doubt in anyone?s mind which end it was named for. I wore two pairs of surgical gloves while poking it up mine. In any case Adrian, I make such sacrifices for young people today such as you, for I consider you worth the price of enduring endless ads. It?s all for you, my young friends! I google on consumer devices so you don?t have to. Consider below, the result of the sacrifice that I made on your behalf. The electronics in these devices are similar but the ones with MEDICAL anywhere in its name will have an additional percentage tacked on. In some cases that percentage can have four digits: There is of course an easy solution: get a 20 dollar snake inspection endoscope and use that instead, because? um? there might be a snake up there somehow dontchaknow, camping trip, snakes don?t really have noses, so they wouldn?t know that isn?t the place to get out of the cold. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 43265 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Sep 5 20:23:00 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 21:23:00 +0100 Subject: [ExI] , question for Max or anyone In-Reply-To: References: <75f1640a-235f-167a-ebea-b765806fee82@zaiboc.net> <010c01d7a026$ef62f400$ce28dc00$@rainier66.com> <005e01d7a260$f1b378b0$d51a6a10$@rainier66.com> <006b01d7a261$f0be26c0$d23a7440$@rainier66.com> <001201d7a271$a83552b0$f89ff810$@rainier66.com> <002201d7a27d$864ffe00$92effa00$@rainier66.com> <001501d7a28b$ed1243b0$c736cb10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Sept 2021 at 20:58, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > We could create an app to alert the next of kin in a heart emergency, but not to alert anyone likely to be of any real assistance, for that would put the device in a new and unaffordable category. > spike > I was looking forward to finding out how my Apple watch and my > iPhone could partner and call 911 Now you say it can't be done? > bill w >--------------------------- Good call. You can already use the Apple watch and iPhone to call 911 with your location and also text your emergency contacts. So are they medical devices? Or is med qualification not needed for these functions? The secret seems to be not officially using it for medical diagnostics, just to call for help and let the medical staff work out what's wrong. (All the blood leaking out will give them a clue). :) BillK From spike at rainier66.com Sun Sep 5 22:52:36 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 15:52:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] watches are watching: was: RE: , question for... In-Reply-To: <00cd01d7a2a5$5a3ab760$0eb02620$@rainier66.com> References: <00cd01d7a2a5$5a3ab760$0eb02620$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <012101d7a2a8$b8f3a660$2adaf320$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat > On Behalf Of Subject: Re: [ExI] , question for Max or anyone >>?We could create an app to alert the next of kin in a heart emergency, but not to alert anyone likely to be of any real assistance, for that would put the device in a new and unaffordable category. spike spike I was looking forward to finding out how my Apple watch and my iPhone could partner and call 911 Now you say it can't be done? bill w Billw do let us know please if you are successful sir. My speculation is that you will find that neither device can be set up to do so, for neither have medical certification, which is good in a way, for otherwise you wouldn?t be able to afford either one. I have found the FitBit watch to be a marvelously useful device. It can tell when I am sleeping, it knows if I?m awake for instance. They can (to some very limited extent (and even tell if one has been bad or good (so be good for heaven sake (well not technically HEAVEN sake (but rather for the sake of avoiding a call from one?s alarmed bride (with a comment such as ?You are home alone except for whoever?s car is showing on the security camera, and your watch just altered me that your pulse is way up. Stop what you are doing and dial 911 forthwith, request emergency medical services to keep you alive until I arrive with your goddam COFFIN, you cheating WRETCH!?))))) Shown below is an example of a FitBit watch logging time slept. I was exhausted yesterday after working my butt off with an eagle scout project. I have checked the accuracy of this thing a number of times by noting the time I hit the hay and when I got up. It isn?t med certified, but it works just the same, as do those 20 dollar non-medical ?ENDoscopes? for I verified there are no snakes hiding up there. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 28655 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ddraig at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 02:21:45 2021 From: ddraig at gmail.com (ddraig@pobox.com) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 12:21:45 +1000 Subject: [ExI] quote of the day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Sept 2021 at 16:07, John Grigg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > As far as I am concerned, that one line by Douglas Adams established his > place as a comedy genius. > > I also liked what he had to say about the pursuit of money... > I always liked: "The Vogon constructor ships hung in the air in exactly the same way that bricks don't" and ?It's unpleasantly like being drunk." "What's so unpleasant about being drunk?" "You ask a glass of water.? Dwayne -- ddraig at pobox.com ddraigbot / NSO / Connery ...r.e.t.u.r.n....t.o....t.h.e....s.o.u.r.c.e... http://fav.me/dqkgpd our aim is wakefulness, our enemy is dreamless sleep -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 18:01:45 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 11:01:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Bitcoin el salvador? In-Reply-To: References: <20210905105046.1.37a74a61ce69a55e62d414ba6ef82ef7@mg1.substack.com> Message-ID: Giulio , I had no idea you had been so involved with Bitcoin! It was through the MTA that I was first exposed to it in April of 2010. But I unfortunately did not see outside the box, and grok the financial potential. On my future deathbed I will still be kicking myself about that... I do hope Bitcoin and some of the altcoins can be used to help people in the third world. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-zIbVEjVpQ On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 4:00 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: Giulio Prisco from Turing Church > Date: Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 12:50 PM > Subject: Bitcoin el salvador? > To: > > > No Bitcoin won't Save The World, but perhaps it will make the world a bit > better. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? > Bitcoin el salvador? > No > Bitcoin won't Save The World, but perhaps it will make the world a bit > better. > > > > Giulio Prisco > > Sep 5 > [image: > Comment] > [image: > Share] > > > > > I was a very early adopter of Bitcoin. I started weeks after Satoshi?s > whitepaper magically appeared in a cryptography mailing list. > > If I still had the BTC that I mined at the time I would be very rich > today, but I wanted to use and spend my BTC to stimulate the nascent > Bitcoin economy. I have written Bitcoin software, consulted and > participated in many projects. For years I made a good living as a > journalist and editor for the Bitcoin trade press. > > Been there, done that. At some point I lost interest and stopped. What > pushed me out was the attitude of those for whom Bitcoin was the most > important things in the world. Or maybe the only important thing. Or maybe > the God of their religion. > > I have edited (out) suggestions that wars and natural or social > catastrophes were ?good for Bitcoin? and therefore Good. Good! With an > exclamation mark of course. Many exclamation marks. > > I really wish for less exclamation marks and more question marks in the > Bitcoin press. At some point I was really fed up. In fact, this is the > first post about Bitcoin that I have written in years. > > No, Bitcoin is NOT the most important thing in the world. Sorry for the > true believers in the Bitcoin God out there, but many things are much more > important than Bitcoin. MUCH more important. > > Having said that, I think Bitcoin IS important. Not the most important > thing, but an important thing. Bitcoin is also a good example of how > radical, unexpected technological innovation can be a social force for > good. A parallel economy relatively independent of Big Government and Big > Business, with working interfaces to the mainstream economy, can do good to > many people. > > And this is the role of Bitcoin in my religion: one of many tools that we > can use to make the world a bit better. And we can use all our tools > together to make the world much better, a little bit a time. > El Salvador > > I used to say that Bitcoin would really take off after being adopted by a > nation state (even a small one) as official currency. Not a new > cryptocurrency issued by a central bank (like China is doing), but the real > Bitcoin independent of nations and central banks. > > This is what is expected to happen in El Salvador in a few days. There > are dissenting voices and event protests of course > , > so we?ll have to wait and see what happens. But this could be a real game > changer. > > Poor families in El Salvador could live with Bitcoin remittances sent from > family members abroad. This happens already of course, but will be much > easier and safer when Bitcoin is officially supported by the government. > > I took the cover picture at a place that accepts Bitcoin in a food market. > These places exist everywhere, but only tech-savvy people can buy there. If > the Bitcoin plan in El Salvador goes through as planned, eventually > everyone will be able to use Bitcoin to buy food and things. > > El Salvador could become a player and a first mover in the new economy > that, one way or another, is bound to emerge. It?s evident that things > can?t continue as they are now. We need to experiment with many alternative > economies. Many will fail the real-world test, but some will work. The move > of El Salvador could enable and protect many new business models that are > only waiting for something like this to happen. This would attract wealthy > foreign investors to the country. > > I?ll hopefully wait and see is Bitcoin will become el salvador (the > savior) of El Salvador, and then of other nations as well. > ------------------------------ > > Cover picture by the author. > > > [image: > Comment] > [image: > Share] > > > Thanks for subscribing to Turing Church > . > This post is public, so feel free to share it. > > Share > > > ? 2021 Giulio Prisco Unsubscribe > > 111 Sutter Street, 7th Floor, San Francisco, CA 94104 > > [image: Publish on Substack] > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 03:03:05 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 20:03:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Testing In-Reply-To: <001401d7a2c2$bed05b40$3c7111c0$@rainier66.com> References: <202109052058.185Kwuse016473@athena.zia.io> <000201d7a2b6$2b74ee30$825eca90$@rainier66.com> <002201d7a2b8$51784e40$f468eac0$@rainier66.com> <001401d7a2c2$bed05b40$3c7111c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 6:58 PM wrote: > Post something forthwith, me lad! > Something forthwith. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 18:11:40 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 11:11:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Anders Sandberg - Aliens, Bayesians and Blurry Footage of UFOs Message-ID: "Are we alone in our sector of the cosmos? Do sightings of unidentified aerial phenomena herald an alien invasion? The declassification of US military footage has rekindled a fiery feud - but before committing to a position in this debate, how can we assess the likelihood (given the existing evidence), that we are being visited by ETs with technology far superior to our own? Anders Sandberg beamed in to make certain disclosures about Bayesian statistics applied to recent UAP/UFO 'sightings' - so let's all put on our thinking caps - and if you like yours silver, shiny and foiled that's fine too.. We also spoke about convergences in cognition and ethics which applies not only to aliens, but AI." Anders is beginning to look very distinguished... And sort of like an indie film director... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THDliZpOiZU&lc=z231sb1iuvmvtzyvwacdp43a1r4l5ctzlrdlymw5kpxw03c010c -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Sep 6 03:14:08 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 20:14:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Bitcoin el salvador? In-Reply-To: References: <20210905105046.1.37a74a61ce69a55e62d414ba6ef82ef7@mg1.substack.com> Message-ID: <000701d7a2cd$421d2280$c6576780$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Grigg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Fwd: Bitcoin el salvador? >? Giulio, I had no idea you had been so involved with Bitcoin! It was through the MTA that I was first exposed to it in April of 2010. But I unfortunately did not see outside the box, and grok the financial potential. On my future deathbed I will still be kicking myself about that... John No John, we call have our own butts to kick for that. We had Hal Finney himself right here among us, inventing the idea right before our eyes, and yet? most of us didn?t buy into the notion. If you want to feel better, just be glad you aren?t this guy: https://www.fool.com/investing/2021/06/18/the-man-who-lost-265-million/#:~:text=Many%20years%20ago%20Stefan%20Thomas,can't%20find%20his%20password. &text=Taylor%20Carmichael%20is%20a%20former%20attorney%20and%20filmmaker. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 03:43:13 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 20:43:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Anders Sandberg - Aliens, Bayesians and Blurry Footage of UFOs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I note that the recent evidence shows the UFO moving at the exact same speed as the sensor, keeping track as the camera moves around. This is not the behavior of an object that actually exists at some substantial distance from the camera. It is the behavior of a speck of dirt on the camera, burned out pixels, or other defects that are part of the camera. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lostmyelectron at protonmail.com Mon Sep 6 03:44:47 2021 From: lostmyelectron at protonmail.com (Gabe Waggoner) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2021 03:44:47 +0000 Subject: [ExI] quote of the day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <92tcZ_jb-61R-WUrodIRd1XDlpX1pspZvm7cOxlcx7Rp_DIbTJ1prtTl3vQbt4IgXKQVUvfRz8wK84yPBCHEHDquW9BG8FlINIEGNp52IYo=@protonmail.com> ??????? Original Message ??????? On Monday, September 6th, 2021 at 2:21 AM, ddraig--- via extropy-chat wrote: > On Sun, 5 Sept 2021 at 16:07, John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote: > >> As far as I am concerned, that one line by Douglas Adams established his place as a comedy genius. >> >> I also liked what he had to say about the pursuit of money... > > I always liked: > > "The Vogon constructor ships hung in the air in exactly the same way that bricks don't" > and > ?It's unpleasantly like being drunk." > "What's so unpleasant about being drunk?" > "You ask a glass of water.? > > Dwayne And after the missiles turn into the bowl of petunias and the sperm whale: "With horror, they suddenly realized that it was fresh whalemeat." And when the alien battle fleet was, due to a terrible miscalculation of scale, accidentally swallowed by a small dog. (I still remember playing the Infocom text-based interactive game on my Apple IIe in the 1980s and cackling when one of my entries triggered the "It is of course well known that careless talk costs lives . . ." line.) Good times. Gabe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Sep 6 04:08:42 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 21:08:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Testing In-Reply-To: References: <202109052058.185Kwuse016473@athena.zia.io> <000201d7a2b6$2b74ee30$825eca90$@rainier66.com> <002201d7a2b8$51784e40$f468eac0$@rainier66.com> <001401d7a2c2$bed05b40$3c7111c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002601d7a2d4$e2773a70$a765af50$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Testing On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 6:58 PM > wrote: Post something forthwith, me lad! >?Something forthwith. Cool thx. ExI-chat was down for a while and I wasn?t sure some of my silliness was making it thru. I was going on about those FitBit watches and how we can compile some cool information at the very modest expense of retaining any remaining semblance of privacy. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 19:12:29 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 12:12:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Bitcoin el salvador? In-Reply-To: <000701d7a2cd$421d2280$c6576780$@rainier66.com> References: <20210905105046.1.37a74a61ce69a55e62d414ba6ef82ef7@mg1.substack.com> <000701d7a2cd$421d2280$c6576780$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The poor bastard! He should have committed the password to memory... But that would be some serious memorizing... Was he married? Lol I have heard several stories of wives doing house-cleaning and accidentally throwing away Bitcoin passwords! John On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 8:24 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *John Grigg via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Fwd: Bitcoin el salvador? > > > > >?Giulio > , > I had no idea you had been so involved with Bitcoin! It was through the MTA > that I was first exposed to it in April of 2010. But I unfortunately did > not see outside the box, and grok the financial potential. On my future > deathbed I will still be kicking myself about that... John > > > > > > > > > > > > No John, we call have our own butts to kick for that. We had Hal Finney > himself right here among us, inventing the idea right before our eyes, and > yet? most of us didn?t buy into the notion. > > > > If you want to feel better, just be glad you aren?t this guy: > > > > > https://www.fool.com/investing/2021/06/18/the-man-who-lost-265-million/#:~:text=Many%20years%20ago%20Stefan%20Thomas,can't%20find%20his%20password.&text=Taylor%20Carmichael%20is%20a%20former%20attorney%20and%20filmmaker > . > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 05:48:18 2021 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 07:48:18 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Bitcoin el salvador? In-Reply-To: References: <20210905105046.1.37a74a61ce69a55e62d414ba6ef82ef7@mg1.substack.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 6, 2021 at 5:00 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Giulio > , > I had no idea you had been so involved with Bitcoin! It was through the MTA > that I was first exposed to it in April of 2010. But I unfortunately did > not see outside the box, and grok the financial potential. On my future > deathbed I will still be kicking myself about that... I do hope Bitcoin and > some of the altcoins can be used to help people in the third world. > I think I must have sent something about Bitcoin to this list back in 2009. I also alerted the MTA list and introduced many people there to Bitcoin. But I wasn't imaginative and optimist enough to realize that Bitcoin would become a big thing in the real world. It was more of a fun intellectual exercise to me. So imagine my surprise when a few years later (2013 or so) I found out that the BTC I had mined was worth real money! I cashed out because I needed money. If I hadn't cashed out I would be a *very* rich man today, but thinking about this is useless now. I prefer to think that Bitcoin gave me money when I needed it. There was not much discussion on Bitcoin on this list at the beginning. Of course there was Hal, but I don't remember Hal posting much about Bitcoin here. G. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-zIbVEjVpQ > > On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 4:00 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message --------- >> From: Giulio Prisco from Turing Church >> Date: Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 12:50 PM >> Subject: Bitcoin el salvador? >> To: >> >> >> No Bitcoin won't Save The World, but perhaps it will make the world a bit >> better. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? >> Bitcoin el salvador? >> No >> Bitcoin won't Save The World, but perhaps it will make the world a bit >> better. >> >> >> >> Giulio Prisco >> >> Sep 5 >> [image: >> Comment] >> [image: >> Share] >> >> >> >> >> I was a very early adopter of Bitcoin. I started weeks after Satoshi?s >> whitepaper magically appeared in a cryptography mailing list. >> >> If I still had the BTC that I mined at the time I would be very rich >> today, but I wanted to use and spend my BTC to stimulate the nascent >> Bitcoin economy. I have written Bitcoin software, consulted and >> participated in many projects. For years I made a good living as a >> journalist and editor for the Bitcoin trade press. >> >> Been there, done that. At some point I lost interest and stopped. What >> pushed me out was the attitude of those for whom Bitcoin was the most >> important things in the world. Or maybe the only important thing. Or maybe >> the God of their religion. >> >> I have edited (out) suggestions that wars and natural or social >> catastrophes were ?good for Bitcoin? and therefore Good. Good! With an >> exclamation mark of course. Many exclamation marks. >> >> I really wish for less exclamation marks and more question marks in the >> Bitcoin press. At some point I was really fed up. In fact, this is the >> first post about Bitcoin that I have written in years. >> >> No, Bitcoin is NOT the most important thing in the world. Sorry for the >> true believers in the Bitcoin God out there, but many things are much more >> important than Bitcoin. MUCH more important. >> >> Having said that, I think Bitcoin IS important. Not the most important >> thing, but an important thing. Bitcoin is also a good example of how >> radical, unexpected technological innovation can be a social force for >> good. A parallel economy relatively independent of Big Government and Big >> Business, with working interfaces to the mainstream economy, can do good to >> many people. >> >> And this is the role of Bitcoin in my religion: one of many tools that we >> can use to make the world a bit better. And we can use all our tools >> together to make the world much better, a little bit a time. >> El Salvador >> >> I used to say that Bitcoin would really take off after being adopted by a >> nation state (even a small one) as official currency. Not a new >> cryptocurrency issued by a central bank (like China is doing), but the real >> Bitcoin independent of nations and central banks. >> >> This is what is expected to happen in El Salvador in a few days. There >> are dissenting voices and event protests of course >> , >> so we?ll have to wait and see what happens. But this could be a real game >> changer. >> >> Poor families in El Salvador could live with Bitcoin remittances sent >> from family members abroad. This happens already of course, but will be >> much easier and safer when Bitcoin is officially supported by the >> government. >> >> I took the cover picture at a place that accepts Bitcoin in a food >> market. These places exist everywhere, but only tech-savvy people can buy >> there. If the Bitcoin plan in El Salvador goes through as planned, >> eventually everyone will be able to use Bitcoin to buy food and things. >> >> El Salvador could become a player and a first mover in the new economy >> that, one way or another, is bound to emerge. It?s evident that things >> can?t continue as they are now. We need to experiment with many alternative >> economies. Many will fail the real-world test, but some will work. The move >> of El Salvador could enable and protect many new business models that are >> only waiting for something like this to happen. This would attract wealthy >> foreign investors to the country. >> >> I?ll hopefully wait and see is Bitcoin will become el salvador (the >> savior) of El Salvador, and then of other nations as well. >> ------------------------------ >> >> Cover picture by the author. >> >> >> [image: >> Comment] >> [image: >> Share] >> >> >> Thanks for subscribing to Turing Church >> . >> This post is public, so feel free to share it. >> >> Share >> >> >> ? 2021 Giulio Prisco Unsubscribe >> >> 111 Sutter Street, 7th Floor, San Francisco, CA 94104 >> >> [image: Publish on Substack] >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Giulio Prisco Writer, futurist, sometime philosopher. Author of: Tales of the Turing Church Futurist spaceflight meditations https://giulioprisco.com/ https://www.turingchurch.com/ https://turingchurch.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 22:08:51 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 15:08:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Dune (2021) Review Message-ID: "If the *Part One* approach means *Dune* tells essentially half of a story, it allows that half all the breathing room it requires. After a dreamy opening reel in which Chani establishes the story?s anti-colonialist themes in voiceover (?Who will our next oppressors be?? she wonders as the Harkonnen armies depart Arrakis), we spend a comfortable amount of time on Caladan, establishing Duke Leto?s sense of duty and suspicions of imminent betrayal; Paul?s anxiety over his doom-laden dreams, his skill as a fighter under the tutelage of the grizzled Gurney Halleck (Josh Brolin ), and his camaraderie with sword-swinging warrior Duncan Idaho (Jason Momoa ); and Lady Jessica?s potentially conflicting responsibilities as Paul?s mother and a member of the Bene Gesserit order. The pacing is perfect ? Villeneuve makes you wait *just* long enough, so when the action moves to Arrakis you?re just as eager to venture into the desert as Paul. When you finally get there, the overriding emotion *Dune* evokes really kicks in: a near-constant jaw-on-the-floor awe. The sense of scale conjured up is, from moment to moment, frequently astonishing. Cinematographer Greig Fraser ? who previously delivered the mind-blowing planet-explosion shots in *Rogue One: A Star Wars Story * ? keeps the camerawork largely static and stately, with lingering wide shots that let you drink in all the detail of the gorgeous sets, and bask in the vistas of Villeneuve?s galactic visions. In one shot, the transport ships bound for Arrakis are of ant-like insignificance against the deep expanse of space. At ground-level, they?re colossal. The visual vastness is matched by a Hans Zimmer score that is, to use a technical term, full-Zimmer ?with howling human voices, clattering drums sure to make any cinema seat rattle like a 4DX chair, and inexplicable space-bagpipes. [image: Dune] This is blockbuster filmmaking in the Christopher Nolan mould ? smart, propulsive, and *really* big. But more than any one Nolan film in particular, Dune feels most reminiscent of *The Lord Of The Rings: The Fellowship Of The Ring *. Like *Fellowship*, it?s merely the opening part of a story, but manages to feel like a masterwork in its own right. Like *Fellowship*, it establishes a sprawling and complex world that feels both familiar and utterly new with the lightest of touches. And like *Fellowship*, its biggest set-piece comes just after the midway point ? after 90 minutes of setting up dominos, Villeneuve finally lets them clatter into one another in spectacular style, scattering the characters to the winds as the final hour becomes an all-out survival movie. Among the uniformly excellent performances, Timoth?e Chalamet holds his own in his first blockbuster leading role. In a film this size, there?s every chance he?d get swallowed up by the sandworm-like enormity of everything around him ? but even against the colossal spectacle, the magnetic charisma he displayed in smaller indie fare shines through." I can't wait to see it! https://www.empireonline.com/movies/reviews/dune-2021/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Sep 6 11:26:08 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 04:26:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Bitcoin el salvador? In-Reply-To: References: <20210905105046.1.37a74a61ce69a55e62d414ba6ef82ef7@mg1.substack.com> Message-ID: <003e01d7a311$fd9ec010$f8dc4030$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat ? >?There was not much discussion on Bitcoin on this list at the beginning. Of course there was Hal, but I don't remember Hal posting much about Bitcoin here. G. He didn?t. There was a lotta list traffic back in those days (about 1997) so when a topic was saturating the list, we would form a subgroup and take it offlist. We did that with politics in general, gun rights, privacy rights, that kinda thing, but in those days I was really caught up in Prime95, which was a systematic effort to find new Mersenne primes. It was a background process that ran 24/7 at low priority so you would never notice it except for higher power bills and perhaps the fan running always on your computer. If you recall I was always going on about that. There was a forum for Prime95, where I used to hang out. In August 1997, an online acquaintance Gordon Spence discovered the 36th Mersenne prime on a junky old computer which was quite outdated by then, a 100 mHz Pentium Gordon was going to toss but left it running in the back room on this program. Its resale value at that time was probably about twenty bucks. It found M36. On that Mersenne forum, someone posted: Hey Gordon, I will give you ten thousand dollars for that computer. He posted: Ha. Serious offers only please. Turns out Gordon did sell that computer, we don?t know who ended up with it or how much was paid, but the computer became a collector?s item, a geek trophy. Then it occurred to me that the number itself was an even bigger geek trophy and was itself worth a pile of money to anyone who wants his name to go on a short list of people who discovered the largest known prime at the time of discovery, the same short list of about 40 people which has early computer pioneers, Leonard Euler, ancient Greeks, that kinda thing. I would cheerfully give a month?s salary to buy that number from someone, report it, go on the list of discoverers forever. The record goes to the guy who reports first, not whose computer literally discovered first. The computer guy has the option to auction his discovery to the highest bidder, who likely was hanging out on Prime95. Hal was intrigued by the notion, contacted me offlist, we took the chatter over to an ExiMath group, and oh what I would give for those online discussions. I didn?t save them at the time, but Sasha Chislenko was active in that, Anders Sandberg, of course Hal Finney, a lotta the ExI biggies. Hal took the idea that a number could be worth a pile of money, then somehow worked out a way to harness it to blockchain to establish ownership of that number, perhaps Hal using some of his Hal magic, and a few years later, BitCoin was born. I never bought into the notion because I didn?t see BitCoins as discovering anything of any mathematical significance. It merely generated a buttload of money for the owner. Hal never let us in on how many billions of dollars worth of BitCoin he owned, but he wasn?t active much on ExI by then. He told us in about that time frame that he had ALS. Hal perished in 2014. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 12:40:14 2021 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 06:40:14 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Anders Sandberg - Aliens, Bayesians and Blurry Footage of UFOs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yea, and when the speck of dirt, falls off, the UFO disappears. Anders Sandberg is the greatest!! On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 9:44 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I note that the recent evidence shows the UFO moving at the exact same > speed as the sensor, keeping track as the camera moves around. > > This is not the behavior of an object that actually exists at some > substantial distance from the camera. It is the behavior of a speck of > dirt on the camera, burned out pixels, or other defects that are part of > the camera. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 13:36:42 2021 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 15:36:42 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Bitcoin el salvador? In-Reply-To: <003e01d7a311$fd9ec010$f8dc4030$@rainier66.com> References: <20210905105046.1.37a74a61ce69a55e62d414ba6ef82ef7@mg1.substack.com> <003e01d7a311$fd9ec010$f8dc4030$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 6, 2021 at 1:28 PM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > Hal took the idea that a number could be worth a pile of money, then somehow worked out a way to harness it to blockchain to establish ownership of that number, perhaps Hal using some of his Hal magic, and a few years later, BitCoin was born. I never bought into the notion because I didn?t see BitCoins as discovering anything of any mathematical significance. It merely generated a buttload of money for the owner. Hal never let us in on how many billions of dollars worth of BitCoin he owned, but he wasn?t active much on ExI by then. He told us in about that time frame that he had ALS. Hal perished in 2014. > Well I really hope Hal was a Bitcoin billionaire (at today's exchange) and his family is now enjoying his deserved wealth, perhaps also supporting some worthy causes. Here's to Hal! > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From ddraig at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 15:38:45 2021 From: ddraig at gmail.com (ddraig@pobox.com) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 01:38:45 +1000 Subject: [ExI] quote of the day In-Reply-To: <92tcZ_jb-61R-WUrodIRd1XDlpX1pspZvm7cOxlcx7Rp_DIbTJ1prtTl3vQbt4IgXKQVUvfRz8wK84yPBCHEHDquW9BG8FlINIEGNp52IYo=@protonmail.com> References: <92tcZ_jb-61R-WUrodIRd1XDlpX1pspZvm7cOxlcx7Rp_DIbTJ1prtTl3vQbt4IgXKQVUvfRz8wK84yPBCHEHDquW9BG8FlINIEGNp52IYo=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Sept 2021 at 13:44, Gabe Waggoner wrote: > > And after the missiles turn into the bowl of petunias and the sperm whale: > "With horror, they suddenly realized that it was fresh whalemeat." > And when the alien battle fleet was, due to a terrible miscalculation of > scale, accidentally swallowed by a small dog. (I still remember playing the > Infocom text-based interactive game on my Apple IIe in the 1980s and > cackling when one of my entries triggered the "It is of course well known > that careless talk costs lives . . ." line.) > Did you get the microscopic space fleet in a tiny clear plastic bag? And the peril-sensitive sunglasses that were bits of cardboard? Did you read through all of the footnotes? "oh no, not this again" dwayne -- ddraig at pobox.com ddraigbot / NSO / Connery ...r.e.t.u.r.n....t.o....t.h.e....s.o.u.r.c.e... http://fav.me/dqkgpd our aim is wakefulness, our enemy is dreamless sleep -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lostmyelectron at protonmail.com Mon Sep 6 15:53:31 2021 From: lostmyelectron at protonmail.com (Gabe Waggoner) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2021 15:53:31 +0000 Subject: [ExI] quote of the day In-Reply-To: References: <92tcZ_jb-61R-WUrodIRd1XDlpX1pspZvm7cOxlcx7Rp_DIbTJ1prtTl3vQbt4IgXKQVUvfRz8wK84yPBCHEHDquW9BG8FlINIEGNp52IYo=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: <-5QBgrLFCRiQfXwMJp9LiJRL4F_-Ja0ugeIiKGxDINjWXI6O7ukVrvtYhLhwIp70_p0XkoMoisIKYHT3rBmjDvAgAElqi1R6oxp-O_NTZ-c=@protonmail.com> ??????? Original Message ??????? On Monday, September 6th, 2021 at 3:38 PM, ddraig--- via extropy-chat wrote: > On Mon, 6 Sept 2021 at 13:44, Gabe Waggoner wrote: > >> And after the missiles turn into the bowl of petunias and the sperm whale: "With horror, they suddenly realized that it was fresh whalemeat." >> And when the alien battle fleet was, due to a terrible miscalculation of scale, accidentally swallowed by a small dog. (I still remember playing the Infocom text-based interactive game on my Apple IIe in the 1980s and cackling when one of my entries triggered the "It is of course well known that careless talk costs lives . . ." line.) > > Did you get the microscopic space fleet in a tiny clear plastic bag? And the peril-sensitive sunglasses that were bits of cardboard? Did you read through all of the footnotes? > "oh no, not this again" > > dwayne > -- > ddraig at pobox.com ddraigbot / NSO / Connery > ...r.e.t.u.r.n....t.o....t.h.e....s.o.u.r.c.e... > http://fav.me/dqkgpdhttp://tinyurl.com/he-is-right-you-know-jpg > our aim is wakefulness, our enemy is dreamless sleep Ha! Indeed, I did. I loved those little nuggets of nerdy goodness. I edit a lot of science reports with footnotes, and occasionally an author will slip in a joke about how nobody ever reads them. That always reminds me of sitting there and typing "footnote 1", "footnote 2", and so on, at the prompt one day when I couldn't figure out how to get the damned babel fish to go where I wanted it to. And seeing "Isn't it fun reading through all the footnotes?" made my day. Dwayne, my hat goes off to you, sir. Best wishes, Gabe -- Gabe Waggoner, MS, ELS Science Writer?Editor 7318 Edmonston Rd. College Park, MD 20740-3018 www.nasw.org/users/rgwaggoner/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ddraig at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 16:02:46 2021 From: ddraig at gmail.com (ddraig@pobox.com) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 02:02:46 +1000 Subject: [ExI] quote of the day In-Reply-To: <-5QBgrLFCRiQfXwMJp9LiJRL4F_-Ja0ugeIiKGxDINjWXI6O7ukVrvtYhLhwIp70_p0XkoMoisIKYHT3rBmjDvAgAElqi1R6oxp-O_NTZ-c=@protonmail.com> References: <92tcZ_jb-61R-WUrodIRd1XDlpX1pspZvm7cOxlcx7Rp_DIbTJ1prtTl3vQbt4IgXKQVUvfRz8wK84yPBCHEHDquW9BG8FlINIEGNp52IYo=@protonmail.com> <-5QBgrLFCRiQfXwMJp9LiJRL4F_-Ja0ugeIiKGxDINjWXI6O7ukVrvtYhLhwIp70_p0XkoMoisIKYHT3rBmjDvAgAElqi1R6oxp-O_NTZ-c=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Sept 2021 at 01:53, Gabe Waggoner wrote: > > Ha! Indeed, I did. I loved those little nuggets of nerdy goodness. I edit > a lot of science reports with footnotes, and occasionally an author will > slip in a joke about how nobody ever reads them. > Yeah, I love that sort of thing. You feel an instant connection. > That always reminds me of sitting there and typing "footnote 1", "footnote > 2", and so on, at the prompt one day when I couldn't figure out how to get > the damned babel fish to go where I wanted it to. And seeing "Isn't it fun > reading through all the footnotes?" made my day. > I did something, I forgot what, and it said footnote 1, so I typed that. Ahah. Then later, footnote 2, so I typed that. Then I thought, huh, I wonder what the other footnotes do. Footnote 3, footnote 4, footnote 5, I'm pretty sure footnote 6 was "isn't it fun reading through the footnotes?" I stopped, frozen, like I was raiding the fridge in the middle of the night and someone just turned the kitchen light on (have done this to one of my housemates). It was a classic you are BUSTED moment. I loved it. Very funny, very brilliant man. Terrible shame he died so young Dwayne -- ddraig at pobox.com ddraigbot / NSO / Connery ...r.e.t.u.r.n....t.o....t.h.e....s.o.u.r.c.e... http://fav.me/dqkgpd our aim is wakefulness, our enemy is dreamless sleep -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Sep 6 16:11:12 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 09:11:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Bitcoin el salvador? In-Reply-To: References: <20210905105046.1.37a74a61ce69a55e62d414ba6ef82ef7@mg1.substack.com> <003e01d7a311$fd9ec010$f8dc4030$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001e01d7a339$d08e2980$71aa7c80$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Fwd: Bitcoin el salvador? On Mon, Sep 6, 2021 at 1:28 PM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > >>... Hal took the idea that a number could be worth a pile of money, then somehow worked out a way to harness it to blockchain to establish ownership of that number, perhaps Hal using some of his Hal magic, and a few years later, BitCoin was born. ... > >...Well I really hope Hal was a Bitcoin billionaire (at today's exchange) and his family is now enjoying his deserved wealth, perhaps also supporting some worthy causes. Here's to Hal! Do you guys remember Wei Dai, Robin Hanson and Nick Szabo? Those three were once on ExI-chat and were active in Extropians. I think Wei Dai came to Extro5 in San Jose or Extro4 in Berkeley, I don't recall now. Hal, Wei Dai, Robin Hanson and Nick Szabo were the ring leaders in that digital currency offlist group. I have long wondered (and Hal never denied or confirmed) that "Satoshi Nakamoto" was really a pseudonym for that group, mostly led by Nick, Wei Dai, Robin Hanson and Hal. It could be I flatter myself imagining that I could be about a tenth of Satoshi Nakamoto, and yet still manage to misunderstand completely what BitCoin was all about. Reasoning: I loved the discussion and participated in it often, kicking in suggestions mostly from my experience with Prime95 organized under GIMPS, the Great Internet Mersenne Prime Search. What I thought Hal was trying to do was come up with a means for online gamers to exchange currencies in their favorite online games. If one guy plays Civilization 9 and the other guy plays Duke Nukem as their primary entertainment, but both play both games and both have some form of online currency, I thought Hal wanted to create a means to interface where Civ bucks could be converted to Nukem bucks and vice versa. But I don't play online games. Note that about that time, Robin Hanson's Ideas Futures was going strong. Robin was the founder and issuer of IDF play money. Also note that Robin Hanson himself proposed a prediction: a legal real-money version of Ideas Futures would come into being. He bought and held most of the real-money shares of that prediction himself. We began to debate in our IDF offlist group if Robin would try to argue that if one feller gave another feller 5 bucks (the kind with Lincoln's picture on it) in exchange for 5000 IDF bucks, that counts as real-money IDF. In a sense it does. While we were debating that, Robin created an actual legal real-money version of Ideas Futures, which still exists, even though most of that migrated over to a dozen copy-cat sites. The Robin could legitimately hoover-up all those IDF play-money bucks from people who bet against him. All that happened right in the timeframe where I think Hal, Robin, Wei Dai and Nick Szabo were cooking up BitCoin, and I believe they (collectively) are Satoshi Nakamoto. spike From spike at rainier66.com Mon Sep 6 16:27:49 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 09:27:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Bitcoin el salvador? In-Reply-To: <001e01d7a339$d08e2980$71aa7c80$@rainier66.com> References: <20210905105046.1.37a74a61ce69a55e62d414ba6ef82ef7@mg1.substack.com> <003e01d7a311$fd9ec010$f8dc4030$@rainier66.com> <001e01d7a339$d08e2980$71aa7c80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <000801d7a33c$225d63f0$67182bd0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: spike at rainier66.com Subject: RE: [ExI] Fwd: Bitcoin el salvador? ...> On Behalf Of Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Fwd: Bitcoin el salvador? On Mon, Sep 6, 2021 at 1:28 PM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >...While we were debating that, Robin created an actual legal real-money version of Ideas Futures, which still exists, even though most of that migrated over to a dozen copy-cat sites. The Robin could legitimately hoover-up all those IDF play-money bucks from people who bet against him. >...All that happened right in the timeframe where I think Hal, Robin, Wei Dai and Nick Szabo were cooking up BitCoin, and I believe they (collectively) are Satoshi Nakamoto. spike I missed two players in that offlist discussion group who I shouldnta: Shasha Chislenko and Robert Bradbury. Those two and Hal are no longer with us. Hal is in the dewar at Alcor. Robin is an economics professor at George Mason U, blows into town occasionally. I lost track of Nick and Wei Dai. I haven't seen an ExI post from either of them in years. Anyone here know where they landed or are in contact? spike From bronto at pobox.com Mon Sep 6 18:37:13 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 11:37:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Anders Sandberg - Aliens, Bayesians and Blurry Footage of UFOs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4b313cc7-fcc1-f976-cfa5-ca4500ef7d67@pobox.com> On 2021-9-05 20:43, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > speck of dirt on the camera I for one welcome our new dirt overlords. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From ben at zaiboc.net Mon Sep 6 19:47:43 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 20:47:43 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Test Message-ID: <38483c6d-7221-9d9a-9599-9747ec787023@zaiboc.net> Please ignore Ben From ben at zaiboc.net Mon Sep 6 19:55:25 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 20:55:25 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Time Travel and FTL flight Message-ID: <8c243f2e-ffba-2b1a-3a18-68c535bddceb@zaiboc.net> On 05/09/2021 06:32, Adrian Tymes wrote: > On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 12:09 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > > wrote: > > On 03/09/2021 18:11, Adrian Tymes wrote: >> The matter at hand was the objection that FTL always causes time >> travel, which I believe is not a true claim. > > What I was trying to say was, if FTL travel /can/ result in > time-travel, then that means that FTL travel is not possible (on > the premise that time-travel is not possible), not that it always > does. > > Unless, somehow, only non-time-travel-causing FTL journeys were > possible (so your FTL drive mysteriously stops working when you > try certain trips). > > Alternatively: some proposed forms of FTL could result in time > travel.? Those particular forms of FTL are not possible.? This has no > effect on other proposed forms of FTL.? This is not dependent on where > you go (that is: not just for certain trips), only how you go. I don't understand that. Either you travel faster than light or you don't. Either FTL travel can result in time-travel or it can't. If it can't, then surely any method that can transport things faster than light will work, and if it can, then surely no method should work? Saying it's /how/ you get to FTL that matters for whether time-travel is (theoretically, but not in fact) possible doesn't make any sense to me, when it's the fact that you /are/ travelling faster than light that determines if you could time-travel or not. But maybe this is just the result of a primate brain evolved to survive on the savannah trying to think about things far removed from that environment! Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Sep 6 20:09:21 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 13:09:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Test In-Reply-To: <38483c6d-7221-9d9a-9599-9747ec787023@zaiboc.net> References: <38483c6d-7221-9d9a-9599-9747ec787023@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <004801d7a35b$14f37550$3eda5ff0$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat Cc: Ben Zaiboc Subject: [ExI] Test Please ignore Ben _______________________________________________ But Ben, we like you. Why do you ask us to ignore you? spike From atymes at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 20:16:40 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 13:16:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Time Travel and FTL flight In-Reply-To: <8c243f2e-ffba-2b1a-3a18-68c535bddceb@zaiboc.net> References: <8c243f2e-ffba-2b1a-3a18-68c535bddceb@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 6, 2021 at 12:57 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I don't understand that. Either you travel faster than light or you don't. > It is the method of faster than light travel that matters. > Either FTL travel can result in time-travel or it can't. > You are confused because you look at all FTL travel as the same thing. It isn't. > If it can't, then surely any method that can transport things faster than > light will work, and if it can, then surely no method should work? > No. Not all methods are the same here. > Saying it's *how* you get to FTL that matters for whether time-travel is > (theoretically, but not in fact) possible doesn't make any sense to me, > when it's the fact that you *are* travelling faster than light that > determines if you could time-travel or not. > Dead wrong. It is not just the fact that you are travelling faster than light that matters. It really is how you get to FTL that matters. You appear to have a core assumption or belief that it is the fact of FTL travel that matters. This assumption or belief is wrong. If you care to explain why you believe this, maybe the confusion can be unraveled. But you're speaking of it as an a priori fact, so all I can say is that this "fact" is incorrect. To give a few examples that have been brought up so far: 1) Accelerating past light speed, if it were possible, might result in time travel. (However, it isn't possible for anything with mass.) 2a) Teleporting from point to point, such as by wormholes, gives the effect of FTL without actually travelling FTL, and does not appear to result in time travel. 2b) Certain methods of bending spacetime, such as the Alcubierre Drive, give the effect of FTL without actually travelling FTL, and do not appear to result in time travel. One might notice a certain similarity between the latter two examples, that gives rise to the question of whether this is a general rule. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 19:44:11 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 20:44:11 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Constitution and Bill of Rights now "Harmful" !! Message-ID: Quote: The intolerance sweeping through our country has become so mindless that it repeatedly ends up being completely insane. It now appears that the website of the National Archives, which is also tasked with preserving the originals of the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights, automatically places a ?harmful language alert? on all three. ----------------- Might be a bit worrying if modern Americans are so sensitive that they can't read the Constitution or the Bill of Rights without getting offended at the language used. Maybe rewrite all that old out-of-date stuff to suit modern delicate sensibilities??? BillK From atymes at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 20:01:16 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 13:01:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Constitution and Bill of Rights now "Harmful" !! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's not specific to those documents. The National Archive is putting that alert on all its documents, document group pages - everything it has. On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 12:47 PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Quote: > The intolerance sweeping through our country has become so mindless > that it repeatedly ends up being completely insane. It now appears > that the website of the National Archives, which is also tasked with > preserving the originals of the Declaration of Independence, the > Constitution, and the Bill of Rights, automatically places a ?harmful > language alert? on all three. > > < > https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/todays-blacklisted-american-the-national-archives-blacklists-the-constitution-and-declaration-of-independence/ > > > > ----------------- > > Might be a bit worrying if modern Americans are so sensitive that they > can't read the Constitution or the Bill of Rights without getting > offended at the language used. Maybe rewrite all that old > out-of-date stuff to suit modern delicate sensibilities??? > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 20:54:01 2021 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 16:54:01 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Constitution and Bill of Rights now "Harmful" !! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Then the warning doesn?t do much good, does it? SR Ballard > On Sep 7, 2021, at 4:04 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > That's not specific to those documents. The National Archive is putting that alert on all its documents, document group pages - everything it has. > >> On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 12:47 PM BillK via extropy-chat wrote: >> Quote: >> The intolerance sweeping through our country has become so mindless >> that it repeatedly ends up being completely insane. It now appears >> that the website of the National Archives, which is also tasked with >> preserving the originals of the Declaration of Independence, the >> Constitution, and the Bill of Rights, automatically places a ?harmful >> language alert? on all three. >> >> >> >> ----------------- >> >> Might be a bit worrying if modern Americans are so sensitive that they >> can't read the Constitution or the Bill of Rights without getting >> offended at the language used. Maybe rewrite all that old >> out-of-date stuff to suit modern delicate sensibilities??? >> >> BillK >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 20:57:20 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 21:57:20 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Constitution and Bill of Rights now "Harmful" !! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Sept 2021 at 21:05, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > That's not specific to those documents. The National Archive is putting that alert on all its documents, document group pages - everything it has. > _______________________________________________ That doesn't improve matters - it makes the situation worse! First, it is a signal to modern readers - Get ready to be offended and disapprove of USA history. Second, It is a suggestion to rewrite history to conform to current fashionable beliefs. Third, Let's unperson anyone who still agrees with these ancient documents. Fourth, It reduces the value of these old documents by inferring that they are outdated and no longer suitable for our modern society. Rewriting history like that makes it disappear from current consciousness. BillK From atymes at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 21:11:24 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 14:11:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Constitution and Bill of Rights now "Harmful" !! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It does none of those. It would only do those if it applied to specific documents, not literally everything they have. On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 2:05 PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, 7 Sept 2021 at 21:05, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > That's not specific to those documents. The National Archive is putting > that alert on all its documents, document group pages - everything it has. > > _______________________________________________ > > > That doesn't improve matters - it makes the situation worse! > > First, it is a signal to modern readers - Get ready to be offended and > disapprove of USA history. > Second, It is a suggestion to rewrite history to conform to > current fashionable beliefs. > Third, Let's unperson anyone who still agrees with these ancient documents. > Fourth, It reduces the value of these old documents by inferring that > they are outdated and no longer suitable for our modern society. > > Rewriting history like that makes it disappear from current consciousness. > > > > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 21:11:32 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 14:11:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Constitution and Bill of Rights now "Harmful" !! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No, it doesn't. On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 1:56 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Then the warning doesn?t do much good, does it? > > SR Ballard > > On Sep 7, 2021, at 4:04 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ? > That's not specific to those documents. The National Archive is putting > that alert on all its documents, document group pages - everything it has. > > On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 12:47 PM BillK via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Quote: >> The intolerance sweeping through our country has become so mindless >> that it repeatedly ends up being completely insane. It now appears >> that the website of the National Archives, which is also tasked with >> preserving the originals of the Declaration of Independence, the >> Constitution, and the Bill of Rights, automatically places a ?harmful >> language alert? on all three. >> >> < >> https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/todays-blacklisted-american-the-national-archives-blacklists-the-constitution-and-declaration-of-independence/ >> > >> >> ----------------- >> >> Might be a bit worrying if modern Americans are so sensitive that they >> can't read the Constitution or the Bill of Rights without getting >> offended at the language used. Maybe rewrite all that old >> out-of-date stuff to suit modern delicate sensibilities??? >> >> BillK >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 21:26:37 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 22:26:37 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Google AI low-resolution photo enhancement Message-ID: Google's Incredible New Photo AI Makes 'Zoom And Enhance' a Real Thing DAVID NIELD 7 SEPTEMBER 2021 You may well have seen sci-fi movies or television shows where the protagonist asks to zoom in on an image and enhance the results ? revealing a face, or a number plate, or any other key detail ? and Google's newest artificial intelligence engines, based on what's known as diffusion models, are able to pull off this very trick. Quote: The technique is called natural image synthesis by Google, and in this particular scenario, image super-resolution. You start off with a small, blocky, pixelated photo, and you end up with something sharp, clear, and natural-looking. It may not match the original exactly, but it's close enough to look real to a pair of human eyes. ----------- This is really remarkable! It should be a big help to improve low quality photos of criminals caught in the act. BillK From sen.otaku at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 21:50:09 2021 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 17:50:09 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Constitution and Bill of Rights now "Harmful" !! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6F1A2C17-A039-4C8A-9E96-517F3DA35CD1@gmail.com> Have to agree. A label to the effect of ?you?ll probably be offended? is an excellent way to undermine a neutral interpretation. SR Ballard > On Sep 7, 2021, at 5:05 PM, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > > ?On Tue, 7 Sept 2021 at 21:05, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > wrote: >> >> That's not specific to those documents. The National Archive is putting that alert on all its documents, document group pages - everything it has. >> _______________________________________________ > > > That doesn't improve matters - it makes the situation worse! > > First, it is a signal to modern readers - Get ready to be offended and > disapprove of USA history. > Second, It is a suggestion to rewrite history to conform to > current fashionable beliefs. > Third, Let's unperson anyone who still agrees with these ancient documents. > Fourth, It reduces the value of these old documents by inferring that > they are outdated and no longer suitable for our modern society. > > Rewriting history like that makes it disappear from current consciousness. > > > > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From sparge at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 15:35:31 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 11:35:31 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Google AI low-resolution photo enhancement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 5:30 PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > This is really remarkable! It should be a big help to improve low > quality photos of criminals caught in the act. > There's a big difference between taking a low-res image and generating a realistic-looking high-res image from it, and taking a low-res image and recovering lost information from it. This is the former. It'll be great for cleaning up old/bad photos. It'll be useless for zooming in on photos of perps or their license plates. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Sep 8 16:10:04 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 09:10:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Google AI low-resolution photo enhancement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003b01d7a4cb$fcc78710$f6569530$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Dave Sill via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Google AI low-resolution photo enhancement On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 5:30 PM BillK via extropy-chat > wrote: This is really remarkable! It should be a big help to improve low quality photos of criminals caught in the act. >?There's a big difference between taking a low-res image and generating a realistic-looking high-res image from it, and taking a low-res image and recovering lost information from it. This is the former. It'll be great for cleaning up old/bad photos. It'll be useless for zooming in on photos of perps or their license plates. -Dave Dave I agree with the notion of enhancing photos of perps but not so fast on the license plates. Those are two different things. You may recall a Hollywood movie with Special Agent Jack Ryan using enhanced remote imagery to figure out if it is the bad guy they are looking for or someone else. Ryan has to make the decision to assassinate him using a drone based on his best guess from enhanced imagery, knowing he mighta just authorized killing an innocent person. The physics hipsters hated that part, knowing that what they did with image enhancement is impossible. However? under some circumstances, when you already know a limited set of what the hypothetical perfect image should look like, there is some digital enhancement possible and useful. So I agree with your notion you can?t identify a perp, because you don?t know what she should look like under ideal conditions. But let us look at the license plate notion, shall we? A license plate has a finite and manageable set of theoretical possibilities. Given sufficient computational resources, a fuzzy image of a license plate can be enhanced in ways the eye cannot do. It can reduce the set of possible plate numbers and states down to a small enough number (such as a few dozen) that each one can be checked and accounted for. Often there is only one of the few dozen candidates which match the car they are registered to hang on. So? I would say you are right on the image enhancing tech being useless for perps, only partially right on the plates. Takes a lotta computing resources, but that is plentiful in our times when we have all this computational power originally purchased for bitcoin mining but now outdated for that purpose. It would be practically free to distribute the computing task to hundreds or thousands of amateur crimefighters, give each a subset of the skerjillions of possibilities to look thru, see which ones come back with the best possible matches, bag the sleazy perp from her car?s plates. Then of course let her go, because nearly everything is functionally legal in California, but hey, we caught her anyway. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 17:09:10 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 18:09:10 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Google AI low-resolution photo enhancement In-Reply-To: <003b01d7a4cb$fcc78710$f6569530$@rainier66.com> References: <003b01d7a4cb$fcc78710$f6569530$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Sept 2021 at 17:14, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > Dave I agree with the notion of enhancing photos of perps but not so fast on the license plates. Those are two different things. > > > spike > _______________________________________________ I think you may be underestimating the power of the Google AI There are more detailed descriptions of the process available in links from the article. Sure, if you only have a few pixels available in the original, then there won't be enough data to expand into a photo. But most cameras (Nest, etc.) have much more than a few pixels available. I think the AI does backward and forwards resolving to check that the final photo does blur back down to the original photo, to check that the expansion is valid. But we should see implementations appearing soon, if it lives up to the hype. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Wed Sep 8 17:39:48 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 10:39:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Google AI low-resolution photo enhancement In-Reply-To: References: <003b01d7a4cb$fcc78710$f6569530$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006e01d7a4d8$858f4810$90add830$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Sent: Wednesday, September 8, 2021 10:09 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: BillK Subject: Re: [ExI] Google AI low-resolution photo enhancement On Wed, 8 Sept 2021 at 17:14, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Dave I agree with the notion of enhancing photos of perps but not so fast on the license plates. Those are two different things. > > > spike > _______________________________________________ >. I think you may be underestimating the power of the Google AI There are more detailed descriptions of the process available in links from the article. Sure, if you only have a few pixels available in the original, then there won't be enough data to expand into a photo. But most cameras (Nest, etc.) have much more than a few pixels available. I think the AI does backward and forwards resolving to check that the final photo does blur back down to the original photo, to check that the expansion is valid. But we should see implementations appearing soon, if it lives up to the hype. BillK _______________________________________________ BillK, the notion of enhancing images of a person does work if we have a limited subset of possibilities. For instance, imagine a murder where we know the perp is one of these people: Colonel Mustard, Mrs. Peacock, Professor Plum... If you already know it is one of say... 8 suspects, photo enhancement can be done because we know a limited set of endpoints. Without that, our best centroiding extrapolations can still produce nothing more certain than a police artists' sketch which depends on witnesses verbal description. That process kinda works to some extent sometimes. But not always: Regarding my allusion to the board game Clue: I often wondered why the game makers didn't seem to have one, with that absurd premise. A detective could easily figure out what room in which Mr. Boddy's body was discovered, such as by looking around and seeing if she saw pans and dishes (probably kitchen) or if she saw books (might deduce it was the library.) Likewise it should be easy enough to determine whether some perp shot Boddy or swatted him with a candlestick. The corpses look different, depending on the circumstances. Furthermore. what if a Manson follower climbed in the window, smacked Boddy with a lead pipe, then went back out the same window? But hey it's a game, and actually a fun one. I seldom lost at that. If one gets good at it, there isn't much guesswork. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 9438 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 12006 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bronto at pobox.com Wed Sep 8 17:43:40 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 10:43:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Google AI low-resolution photo enhancement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <101a28d6-37f5-7033-9d16-612133c6dea7@pobox.com> > Google's Incredible New Photo AI Makes 'Zoom And Enhance' a Real Thing I read of a case where degraded DNA was found at a crime scene, analogous to a partial fingerprint. Prosecution told the jury (accurately) of the long odds against a random match even to this partial information. What the jury did not hear: the defendant was fingered by matching the partial DNA to *everyone* in the California DNA database, and the chance of a hit in that search was one in three. I do not remember (maybe the article didn't say) what happened on appeal. But I see an analogous danger here. It's one more way for police to do what they do best: find someone, anyone, who fits the limited information they have, and interpret any new information to serve the frame. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From atymes at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 18:20:39 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 11:20:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Google AI low-resolution photo enhancement In-Reply-To: <006e01d7a4d8$858f4810$90add830$@rainier66.com> References: <003b01d7a4cb$fcc78710$f6569530$@rainier66.com> <006e01d7a4d8$858f4810$90add830$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 10:42 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Regarding my allusion to the board game Clue: I often wondered why the > game makers didn?t seem to have one, with that absurd premise. A detective > could easily figure out what room in which Mr. Boddy?s body was discovered, > such as by looking around and seeing if she saw pans and dishes (probably > kitchen) or if she saw books (might deduce it was the library.) Likewise > it should be easy enough to determine whether some perp shot Boddy or > swatted him with a candlestick. The corpses look different, depending on > the circumstances. > I hear the premise is that it is set before even basic forensic techniques were widely followed. You or I might look for such clues, but to the people back then, it took a leap of imagination to think of this. Thus the game's emphasis on negative evidence: it couldn't have been Plum because Plum was at the other end of the mansion at the time, it couldn't have been the revolver (which was unloaded but could have been used as a melee weapon) because the revolver was locked in a gun safe, and so on. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Wed Sep 8 20:07:35 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 21:07:35 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Google AI low-resolution photo enhancement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 07/09/2021 22:27, BillK wrote: > Google's Incredible New Photo AI Makes 'Zoom And Enhance' a Real Thing > DAVID NIELD 7 SEPTEMBER 2021 > > You may well have seen sci-fi movies or television shows where the > protagonist asks to zoom in on an image and enhance the results ? > revealing a face, or a number plate, or any other key detail ? and > Google's newest artificial intelligence engines, based on what's known > as diffusion models, are able to pull off this very trick. > > > > Quote: > The technique is called natural image synthesis by Google, and in this > particular scenario, image super-resolution. You start off with a > small, blocky, pixelated photo, and you end up with something sharp, > clear, and natural-looking. It may not match the original exactly, but > it's close enough to look real to a pair of human eyes. > ----------- > > This is really remarkable! It should be a big help to improve low > quality photos of criminals caught in the act. Sounds like a terrible idea, especially that last bit. This is what's known as making stuff up, based on a few vague clues. How often, I wonder, would a small blocky pixellated photo of a criminal caught in the act would, after being 'enhanced', turn out to look like you? Or me. Or anyone else who didn't commit the crime. I hope this AI system is capable of saying 'Nope, dunno what this is, not enough information available'. Otherwise it's no better than a kid seeing ponies in the clouds. Ben From atymes at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 20:41:33 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 13:41:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Google AI low-resolution photo enhancement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 1:10 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > This is what's known as making stuff up, based on a few vague clues. How > often, I wonder, would a small blocky pixellated photo of a criminal > caught in the act would, after being 'enhanced', turn out to look like > you? Or me. Or anyone else who didn't commit the crime. > You know the drill: round up some convenient disfavored minority, say the machine said to do so, and hope they're not brave enough to question the machine's reliability. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Sep 8 20:44:12 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 13:44:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Google AI low-resolution photo enhancement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000b01d7a4f2$48351c00$d89f5400$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat ... > ----------- > >> This is really remarkable! It should be a big help to improve low > quality photos of criminals caught in the act. >...Sounds like a terrible idea, especially that last bit. >...This is what's known as making stuff up, based on a few vague clues. How often, I wonder, would a small blocky pixellated photo of a criminal caught in the act would, after being 'enhanced', turn out to look like you? Or me. Or anyone else who didn't commit the crime. >...I hope this AI system is capable of saying 'Nope, dunno what this is, not enough information available'. Otherwise it's no better than a kid seeing ponies in the clouds. Ben _______________________________________________ Ben the technique may have some value if we know beforehand that the perp is either OJ Simpson, Ricky Ricardo or Mae West. As you and others point out, it cannot create information, but it can possibly be of some use under some circumstances. Good chance it is being oversold, but that's the modern way. spike From spike at rainier66.com Wed Sep 8 20:54:37 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 13:54:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Google AI low-resolution photo enhancement In-Reply-To: <000b01d7a4f2$48351c00$d89f5400$@rainier66.com> References: <000b01d7a4f2$48351c00$d89f5400$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001101d7a4f3$bcdc95a0$3695c0e0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: spike at rainier66.com ... _______________________________________________ >...Ben the technique may have some value if we know beforehand that the perp is either OJ Simpson, Ricky Ricardo or Mae West. As you and others point out, it cannot create information, but it can possibly be of some use under some circumstances. >...Good chance it is being oversold, but that's the modern way. >...spike Do let me expand just a bit. Suppose a crime comes down, something sufficiently serious in our times that resources would be expended to apprehend the perp, such as murder 1 or cultural appropriation. All we have are grainy video images. The software would take images of all the locals out on parole for murder 1 and the yahoo seen wearing a sombrero to the neighborhood Cinco de Mayo party, the software narrows it down from a few thousand usual suspects to half a dozen most likely, they call them in, parole officer asks a few questions about where she was on such and such a day and time and who saw her there. Lotta times she knows she's busted, doesn't even bother trying some breezy story, peacefully hands over the sombrero. spike From max at maxmore.com Fri Sep 10 04:24:22 2021 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 04:24:22 +0000 Subject: [ExI] The Matrix: Resurrections trailer Message-ID: I just watched the trailer for The Matrix: Resurrections. The movie opens Wednesday December 22. I don't care if it's borrowing heavily from the first movie especially. It looks great to those of us who enjoyed the first one. --Max -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 09:28:57 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 10:28:57 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Running up against energy limits Message-ID: There is a very long article just out that claims that the Afghanistan disaster was fundamentally about the USA hitting resource limits. Quote: The Afghanistan Fiasco (and Today?s High Level of Conflict) Reflect an Energy Problem Posted on August 30, 2021 by Gail Tverberg There is a saying, ?Everything happens for a reason.? The fiasco in Afghanistan is no exception to this rule. Even though it is not obvious, the United States is up against energy limits. It needed to pull back from Afghanistan to try to have enough energy to continue in its other roles, such as providing benefits for its growing army of retirees, and building infrastructure to mitigate the COVID-19 downturn. The fundamental problem is that governments can add debt and other indirect promises of resources that create goods and services, but they cannot actually create the low-cost energy, water and mineral resources needed to fulfill those promises. The way energy limits play out is not at all intuitive. Most people assume that we will run out of oil, leading to a spike in oil prices. We will then transition to renewables. As I see it, this understanding is completely wrong. Limited energy supply first leads to a need for simplification: Stepping back from Afghanistan would be one such type of simplification. It would save energy supplies and reduce the need for greater tax revenue or added debt. In this post, I will try to explain some pieces of the problem. ----------- Looks like we *really* need a cheap energy replacement for fossil fuels as soon as possible. (Then we can get back to fighting more wars as usual). :( BillK From sparge at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 11:25:11 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 07:25:11 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Running up against energy limits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 5:33 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > There is a very long article just out that claims that the Afghanistan > disaster was fundamentally about the USA hitting resource limits. > I've been watching the Netflix docuseries Turning Point. We had Afghanistan under control until we decided to focus on Iraq. Our primary bottleneck is competent leadership. The last thing we need to do is give them more capabilities by addressing resource limits. The whole idea of a war on terror is ridiculous and was doomed from the start. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hibbard at wisc.edu Fri Sep 10 11:30:41 2021 From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 11:30:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] Google AI low-resolution photo enhancement Message-ID: I recall seeing this applied years ago to astronomy images, based on Bayesian logic. Given a low resolution image low, find the high resolution image hi that maximizes p(hi) * p(low | hi) Works well when hi consists of a lot of point sources like stars. When used for crime, defining p(hi) is a great opportunity for bias. Like, probably a male face since most criminals are men. From spike at rainier66.com Fri Sep 10 13:09:33 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 06:09:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Google AI low-resolution photo enhancement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002e01d7a645$19e48580$4dad9080$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of Bill Hibbard via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Google AI low-resolution photo enhancement >...I recall seeing this applied years ago to astronomy images, based on Bayesian logic. Given a low resolution image low, find the high resolution image hi that maximizes p(hi) * p(low | hi) >...Works well when hi consists of a lot of point sources like stars. When used for crime, defining p(hi) is a great opportunity for bias. Like, probably a male face since most criminals are men. _______________________________________________ Ja, and keep in mind there are algorithms that can give you information you wouldn't have thought possible. For instance... consider the image of a person which is at such a distance that your camera measures the perp in about ten pixels height and about two pixels wide. Notice that nearly everyone, if we restrict the set to only men and testiculated women, falls within about a 10% range in height: we fellers are nearly all the same height to within about 10%. So the 10 pixel image is Perfectly useless ja? No. Some information can be extracted from even that, if we have multiple digital images of that perp. There is a specialty centroiding algorithm I helped develop in my misspent career years which was about calculating the path of a guide star as its image crosses a digital focal plane. Regardless of how much the image of a star is magnified, if you have hypothetical perfect optics, it is still a point of light: you cannot resolve a star into an image that looks like the sun. They are too far away. We don't have perfect optics, so the image is measured as a fuzz ball. So... the image of a point of light crosses a digital focal plane. Individual pixels measure the number of photons (of sufficient energy) which it sees. By the timing of the sequence of images, you can calculate the angular velocity of the spacecraft and from that you can calculate the brightness of the guide star. From that, you can look at the number of photons in the pixel which received the most photons, then compare that with signal received at that instant with the photons received by adjacent pixels and subsequent pixels, and with that info, do a kind of sparse-matrix centroiding mathemagic trick and calculate the hypothetical track of that star image to a precision of a small fraction of the angular size of the pixels. Do let me assure you, it works. Think about the 10-pixel perp. The image is useless, ja? Ja, it is useless if you have only one of image. Even centroiding mathemagics won't tell you much. But if you have a number of images, there is a version of the centroiding algorithm which allows us to pick off some info from the 10 pixel images, such as the perp's height and bulk, which can be very useful information if we have a limited pool of suspects. Digital images of perps typically have more than 10 pixels. Use your imagination. Regarding the argument that such technology could lead to more false convictions, on the contrary, if done properly it would lead to fewer false convictions. They aren't used as court evidence but rather to lead the constabulary to the right perp. spike From ben at zaiboc.net Fri Sep 10 19:44:07 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 20:44:07 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Google AI low-resolution photo enhancemen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7bc2952c-89bf-dd52-d4b6-9d84b3bbed26@zaiboc.net> On 10/09/2021 05:24, BillK wrote: > I think the AI does backward and forwards resolving to check that the > final photo does blur back down to the original photo, to check that > the expansion is valid I dunno, that just sounds wrong to me. Surely more than one image can be blurred down to exactly the same pattern? Extrapolating then simplifying again doesn't seem like a good check on the validity of the extrapolation. Ben From sparge at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 20:47:22 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 16:47:22 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Google AI low-resolution photo enhancemen In-Reply-To: <7bc2952c-89bf-dd52-d4b6-9d84b3bbed26@zaiboc.net> References: <7bc2952c-89bf-dd52-d4b6-9d84b3bbed26@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 3:47 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 10/09/2021 05:24, BillK wrote: > > I think the AI does backward and forwards resolving to check that the > > final photo does blur back down to the original photo, to check that > > the expansion is valid > > I dunno, that just sounds wrong to me. Surely more than one image can be > blurred down to exactly the same pattern? Extrapolating then simplifying > again doesn't seem like a good check on the validity of the extrapolation. > Exactly. To go from low-res to high-res without additional information requires making up new data. The Google photo enhancement AI is good at making up data that results in believable portraits--and it only does portraits at this point. None of the stories about this enhancement have compared the results of enhancing an image with the actual high-res version of the portrait. They all published the same Google-supplied images which were no doubt cherry-picked to make the software look good. Again, this technology will be fine for upscaling images for non law-enforcement purposes, but it in no way recovers data lost due to low resolution. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Sep 10 21:09:07 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 14:09:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] law vs law Message-ID: <000a01d7a688$18221990$48664cb0$@rainier66.com> Fun what if? The USA POTUS has issued vaccine orders with an end-run around the usual legal roadblocks. POTUS doesn?t have legal the authority to demand anyone get a vaccination. It isn?t his body, so it isn?t his choice. POTUS can order OSHA to issue the demand however, threatening employers with huge fines if they have employees who refuse to be vaccinated. Employers will not risk a huge fine, so? it is equivalent to firing any employee who refuses to be vaccinated. What if? the employee in question is a minority? Or a union member? Then if the employee refuses to get vaccinated (which nearly half of Americans are doing) then the employer either gets a huge OSHA fine or gets the pants sued off of her by the fired employee. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 21:46:12 2021 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 15:46:12 -0600 Subject: [ExI] law vs law In-Reply-To: <000a01d7a688$18221990$48664cb0$@rainier66.com> References: <000a01d7a688$18221990$48664cb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: None of that is of the slightest concern to the administration. Indeed, whether or not the regulation is ever even enforced before being blocked by the courts is of, at most, only minor, comparatively abstract intellectual importance to them. It has already accomplished everything it needed to: it energized the far left base, and sucked all the oxygen out of the room from the Afghanistan story. On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 3:11 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > Fun what if? > > > > The USA POTUS has issued vaccine orders with an end-run around the usual > legal roadblocks. POTUS doesn?t have legal the authority to demand anyone > get a vaccination. It isn?t his body, so it isn?t his choice. > > > > POTUS can order OSHA to issue the demand however, threatening employers > with huge fines if they have employees who refuse to be vaccinated. > > > > Employers will not risk a huge fine, so? it is equivalent to firing any > employee who refuses to be vaccinated. > > > > What if? the employee in question is a minority? Or a union member? Then > if the employee refuses to get vaccinated (which nearly half of Americans > are doing) then the employer either gets a huge OSHA fine or gets the pants > sued off of her by the fired employee. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 21:48:05 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 16:48:05 -0500 Subject: [ExI] opportunity - good thought for today and every day Message-ID: Most of our ancestors were illiterate. Few people in history had opportunities to show what they could do if educated (women especially - some primitive places, though technically developed, have atavistic attitudes towards women). How many potential geniuses never had a chance? Most. What is so great about the world today is that in developed countries, at least, few potential geniuses are overlooked. I think this is way up there on the list of things modern societies have done for their people. Education here in MS is the biggest expense for state government. Spike and I keep saying how great the modern world is. Access to food, to medicine, to shelter - these are the basic things that have improved. But letting minds roam free to develop has to be next in line to those basics. Some great minds are still missed - some of those are late developers, and some appear average or worse for one reason or another. I say that like some Western European countries, our country ought to offer free education to everyone through college, though not for everyone (maybe some tests have to be passed at upper levels, like as in Russia (a point I would like to discuss)). It's a great time for great minds to be alive. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Sep 10 22:13:28 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 15:13:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] opportunity - good thought for today and every day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001a01d7a691$15bf3440$413d9cc0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >?It's a great time for great minds to be alive. bill w Understatement! We mediocre minds are really enjoying ourselves too. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Sep 10 22:29:53 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 15:29:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] law vs law In-Reply-To: References: <000a01d7a688$18221990$48664cb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002901d7a693$60d05bb0$22711310$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Darin Sunley via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] law vs law >?None of that is of the slightest concern to the administration. >?Indeed, whether or not the regulation is ever even enforced before being blocked by the courts is of, at most, only minor, comparatively abstract intellectual importance to them. >?It has already accomplished everything it needed to: it energized the far left base, and sucked all the oxygen out of the room from the Afghanistan story? Darin Hi Darin, Our small town has a weekly 24 page newspaper that comes out on Fridays. Today?s paper had a page and a half story on a local guy who settled here about 5 years ago. He went back to Afghanistan to visit his dying mother. His return flight was scheduled for 15 August, which turned out to be one day too late. Long story short, he was repeatedly beaten by Taliban social workers, his 8 yr old daughter was separated from him and severely traumatized, the family of 4 managed to get out 8 horrifying days later clinging to the metal floor of a military C5 rather than belted into the seat of a Boeing 767. Hey at least they were leaving, and they were on the inside of the aircraft. Now the US government is telling us just today, that the US State Department stopped Afghan flights into the USA because four cases of measles were discovered on board. They couldn?t risk importing a disease for which nearly all Americans are immunized, while allowing immigrants not vaccinated against Covid into a country where over a third of the citizens actively and enthusiastically refuse Covid vaccination. Or? the US State Department wants to avoid the kinds of stories our local newspaper ran this morning. The vaccine mandate may have sucked the oxygen out of the Afghanistan story, but those kinds of articles are giving it CPR. This isn?t going away. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 23:11:06 2021 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 17:11:06 -0600 Subject: [ExI] law vs law In-Reply-To: <002901d7a693$60d05bb0$22711310$@rainier66.com> References: <000a01d7a688$18221990$48664cb0$@rainier66.com> <002901d7a693$60d05bb0$22711310$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: >This isn't going away. Good. >Hey at least they were leaving, and they were on the inside of the aircraft. That's awesome! On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 4:32 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Darin Sunley via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] law vs law > > > > >?None of that is of the slightest concern to the administration. > > > > >?Indeed, whether or not the regulation is ever even enforced before being > blocked by the courts is of, at most, only minor, comparatively abstract > intellectual importance to them. > > > > >?It has already accomplished everything it needed to: it energized the > far left base, and sucked all the oxygen out of the room from the > Afghanistan story? Darin > > > > > > > > Hi Darin, > > > > Our small town has a weekly 24 page newspaper that comes out on Fridays. > Today?s paper had a page and a half story on a local guy who settled here > about 5 years ago. He went back to Afghanistan to visit his dying mother. > His return flight was scheduled for 15 August, which turned out to be one > day too late. > > > > Long story short, he was repeatedly beaten by Taliban social workers, his > 8 yr old daughter was separated from him and severely traumatized, the > family of 4 managed to get out 8 horrifying days later clinging to the > metal floor of a military C5 rather than belted into the seat of a Boeing > 767. Hey at least they were leaving, and they were on the inside of the > aircraft. > > > > Now the US government is telling us just today, that the US State > Department stopped Afghan flights into the USA because four cases of > measles were discovered on board. They couldn?t risk importing a disease > for which nearly all Americans are immunized, while allowing immigrants not > vaccinated against Covid into a country where over a third of the citizens > actively and enthusiastically refuse Covid vaccination. > > > > Or? the US State Department wants to avoid the kinds of stories our local > newspaper ran this morning. > > > > The vaccine mandate may have sucked the oxygen out of the Afghanistan > story, but those kinds of articles are giving it CPR. This isn?t going > away. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 22:12:10 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 15:12:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Gene_Therapies_Are_Almost_Here=2C_But_Healthcare?= =?utf-8?q?_Isn=E2=80=99t_Ready_for_Sky-High_Prices?= Message-ID: "Zolgensma ?which treats spinal muscular atrophy , a rare genetic disease that damages nerve cells, leading to muscle decay?is currently the most expensive drug in the world. A one-time treatment of the life-saving drug for a young child costs $2.1 million . While Zolgensma?s exorbitant price is an outlier today, by the end of the decade there?ll be dozens of cell and gene therapies, costing hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars for a single dose. The Food and Drug Administration predicts that by 2025 it will be approving 10 to 20 cell and gene therapies every year." https://singularityhub.com/2021/09/07/gene-therapies-are-almost-here-but-healthcare-isnt-ready-for-sky-high-prices/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 02:24:33 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 19:24:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Matrix: Resurrections trailer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have high hopes for it! But I do wonder, who would win in a fight, Paul Atreides or Neo? Lol John ; ) On Thu, Sep 9, 2021 at 9:29 PM Max More via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I just watched the trailer for *The Matrix: Resurrections.* The movie > opens Wednesday December 22. I don't care if it's borrowing heavily from > the first movie especially. It looks great to those of us who enjoyed the > first one. > > --Max > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 02:49:37 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 19:49:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Running up against energy limits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My understanding is that Afghanistan has several trillion dollars worth of rare minerals, the sort needed for making electronics. And so I had assumed that was the real reason for the U.S. military occupying the country, was to ensure access to it. But the U.S. military completely withdrew, and now China is about to move in to "help" the Taliban and also, of course, mine those rare minerals. I am just stunned by the lack of American strategic thinking, and how a mentally deficient president can do so much damage to American foreign policy. John On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 4:29 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 5:33 AM BillK via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> There is a very long article just out that claims that the Afghanistan >> disaster was fundamentally about the USA hitting resource limits. >> > > I've been watching the Netflix docuseries Turning Point. We had > Afghanistan under control until we decided to focus on Iraq. > > Our primary bottleneck is competent leadership. The last thing we need to > do is give them more capabilities by addressing resource limits. > > The whole idea of a war on terror is ridiculous and was doomed from the > start. > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 12:30:03 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 22:30:03 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Running up against energy limits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Sep 2021 at 21:48, John Grigg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > My understanding is that Afghanistan has several trillion dollars worth of > rare minerals, the sort needed for making electronics. And so I had assumed > that was the real reason for the U.S. military occupying the country, was > to ensure access to it. But the U.S. military completely withdrew, and now > China is about to move in to "help" the Taliban and also, of course, mine > those rare minerals. I am just stunned by the lack of American strategic > thinking, and how a mentally deficient president can do so much damage to > American foreign policy. > Because the world is there for the US to invade and exploit? -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Sep 11 12:51:57 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 05:51:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Running up against energy limits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002901d7a70b$ce570fd0$6b052f70$@rainier66.com> On Sat, 11 Sep 2021 at 21:48, John Grigg via extropy-chat > wrote: ?, and now China is about to move in to "help" the Taliban and also, of course, mine those rare minerals? The Chinese are already there John. The surviving Afghanis will not like what comes next. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 13:21:57 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 08:21:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Running up against energy limits In-Reply-To: <002901d7a70b$ce570fd0$6b052f70$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d7a70b$ce570fd0$6b052f70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: In all the long time we were in Afghanistan did we mine any minerals? bill w On Sat, Sep 11, 2021 at 7:55 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > On Sat, 11 Sep 2021 at 21:48, John Grigg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ?, and now China is about to move in to "help" the Taliban and also, of > course, mine those rare minerals? > > > > > > > > The Chinese are already there John. The surviving Afghanis will not like > what comes next. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From write2mark1 at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 14:22:41 2021 From: write2mark1 at gmail.com (write2mark1 at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 07:22:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Matrix: Resurrections trailer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > > - close > > - fullscreen > > - save > > - print > > - volume_up > > - tune > > - delete > > - > > > - > https://www.ign.com/articles/everything-we-know-the-matrix-resurrections-teasers > - > - By Adam BankhurstUpdated: 10 Sep 2021 7:01 pmPosted: 8 Sep 2021 > 10:39 am > - > - 8 min read > - > > Everything We Know About The Matrix Resurrections From the Teaser Trailers > - IGN > > After what feels like an eternity, we have finally received our first look > at The Matrix Resurrections > via a bunch of > cryptic mini-teasers. However, much like the mystery of The Matrix itself, > the teasers themselves not only offer more questions than they answer, but > even the act of watching them all can be a bit difficult. > > Those who visit whatisthematrix.com are greeted with the choice of taking > a Red Pill or Blue Pill, > not > unlike Neo?s choice from the original film. Once a pill is chosen, one > possible video of 180,000 is played to offer a tease of the full trailer > that is dropping on September 9. Each pill has different scenes, and there > is no surefire way to ensure you?ve seen everything. > > Still, we?ve gathered all the most important scenes from The Matrix > Resurrection?s teasers that we could find in order to break down their > significance and try to figure out what they may be letting us know about > the film, which is set to be released in theaters and on HBO Max on > December 22, 2021. Read on our scroll through the slideshow below! > > (Update: You can also check out our full Matrix 4 trailer breakdown right > here > > .) > > The Matrix Resurrections Teaser Images > Red Pill > > If you choose the Red Pill on whatisthematrix.com, > Yahya Abdul-Mateen II?s > voice can be heard over the many possible scenes that might appear. While > we don?t yet know who Abdul-Mateen is playing, some of these scenes hint > that he could be a new version of a beloved character. > > ?This is the moment,? Abdul-Mateen says. ?For you to show us what is real. > Right now, you believe it?s [the current time when you are watching the > video], but that couldn?t be further from the truth. Could be this is the > first day of the rest of your life, but if you want it, you got to fight > for it.? > > For those who need a refresher, Neo took the Red Pill in the first Matrix > after Mopheus says, ?You take the Red Pill, you stay in Wonderland and I > show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.? > > While we do get glimpses of Neo in the Red Pill scenes, Abdul-Mateen II?s > character has some of the most intriguing moments. One includes him not > only staring at his reflection in the mirror with a sense of disbelief, but > it also shows his fingers appearing to pass through that mirror, which is > similar to another scene in the Blue Pill?s collection. > > > > Another, which is one that probably raises the most questions, sees him > being built/rebuilt by some machine. This, and many more in both the Red > Pill and Blue Pill scenes, may lend weight to the theory that Abdul-Mateen > II is actually playing a new version of Morpheus. > > > Laurence Fishburne doesn?t appear to be returning to his role as Morpheus, > but > The Matrix Online may be the key to not only why this is, but also to why > Abdul-Mateen II may be playing a reborn version of the character. > > The Matrix Online was an MMORPG that ran from 2005-2009 and was actually a > canon continuation of The Matrix story following The Matrix Revolutions. > One of the biggest story moments in the MMO was the death of Morpheus. Yes, > you read that right. > > In Chapter 1.2 of The Matrix Online, Morpheus was demanding the return of > Neo?s body from the machines and began orchestrating attacks across The > Matrix to accomplish his goal. During one of these attacks, Morpheus is > killed by gunshots from a character known as the Assassin, who had bullets > with a ?kill code.? > > Sure, anything could happen and Fishburne could still return, but it's an > interesting rabbit hole of its own to go down. > > The Red Pill scenes also include a few glimpses of life outside The > Matrix, and we see a flying ship that?s not totally unlike Morpheus? ship > the Nebuchadnezzar from the original films. We also see characters being > attacked by sentinels. > > > > Another scene that may be from outside the Matrix is a glimpse of a > character?s eye. What?s of note in this image is that the eyelashes appear > to be mostly gone and could be a look at a character - possibly Neo - > waking up from the Matrix. In the first movie, Neo wakes up in a pod and > has no hair, and this could be a similar situation. > > > Other scenes include a character getting jacked into the Matrix, glimpses > of Trinity and Jessica Henwick?s characters, Neo walking towards the > Simulatte coffee shop that was mentioned in the CinemaCon footage that > screened recently, > and > Jonathan Groff?s character having his mouth sealed like Neo?s was in the > original. > Blue Pill > > If you choose the Blue Pill on whatisthematrix.com, you are treated to > narration by Neil Patrick Harris, a newcomer to the franchise who is set to > play a therapist (this character was reportedly speaking to Neo in the > footage at CinemaCon.) > > > ?Do you remember how you got here? You?ve lost your capacity to discern > reality from fiction,? Harris says throughout the teaser(s). ?What?s real > is here and now, [the current time when you are watching the video]. > Anything else is just your mind playing tricks on you. It becomes a problem > when fantasies endanger us. We don?t want anyone to get hurt, do we?? > > If Neo had taken the Blue Pill in the first film, according to Morpheus, > ?The story ends. You wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to > believe.? > > While this could obviously be a misdirect, it could hint that Harris? > character may be someone who wants to keep The Matrix as it is and keep Neo > unaware of what is truly going on. In the CinemaCon footage, Neo is said to > have been taking two Blue Pills a day and, when Neo and Trinity meet at a > coffee shop, neither of them appear to remember each other. > > We may see this moment in one of the teasers for The Matrix Resurrections > when Neo and Trinity are together but Trinity pulls her hand away from him. > > > Other footage does include Neo and Trinity working together, however, and > shows the return of Neo?s ability to stop bullets in their tracks. > > > Blue Pills also show up in multiple teasers, and one in particular looks > to have Neo pouring a ton of them down a sink, possibly as he starts to > remember his past. While we don?t see his face, his iconic trench coat may > be a giveaway it is him. > > > The last Blue Pill scene worth mentioning is the most surprising, and may > show us a glimpse of old Neo. We see Neo taking these pills - which look to > be called Ontolofloxin - but the mirror next to him shows an older version > of him taking the same pills. What could it mean? Only time will tell. > > > What we do know is that Ontology, according to Merriam-Webster, > is ?a branch of > metaphysics concerned with the nature and relations of being? or ?a > particular theory about the nature of being or the kinds of things that > have existence.? > > Yahya Abdul-Mateen II and Jessica Henwick?s characters also show up in the > Blue Pill teasers, and there are a few hints that further tease the > possibility that Abdul-Mateen is actually a reborn/new Morpheus. Beyond the > obvious comparison that is seen when Neo and Abdul-Mateen?s yet-unknown > character are fighting in a dojo that looks much like a similar scene from > the original trilogy with Neo and Laurence Fishburne?s Morpheus, one of the > teasers may give us a glimpse of those round glasses Morpheus loved to wear. > > > In the image, Abdul-Mateen and Henwick are running down a hallway and > Abdul-Mateen is wearing sunglasses. The striking thing, however, is that > behind a pair of standard sunglasses with a flat top appears to be those > round glasses that Morpheus wore. > > > Other possible Blue Pill scenes include a black cat, which in the Fifth > and Six Matrix signified Deja Vu. There are also glimpses of a character > with two ports on the back of their head, an arm with a gun passing through > a mirror, Jonathan Groff?s character smiling, Neo walking through a door of > light and another with him walking off the edge of a building with others > looking on, and more. > > > We don?t have long to wait to learn more about The Matrix Resurrections, > but be sure to let us know in the comments below what your wildest theories > are about the first Matrix film since 2003?s The Matrix Revolutions -- > including why The Matrix digital rain in the teasers starts off normal in > that it is falling down, but then starts going up and changing colors. So > much to discuss! > > > > *Adam Bankhurst is a news writer for IGN. You can follow him on Twitter * > *@AdamBankhurst* * and on **Twitch.* > > > - > - Go to dashboard > > > Generated with Reader Mode > > - Feedback > - Twitter > - Get Pro > - Get Premium > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Sat Sep 11 17:24:07 2021 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 10:24:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Matrix: Resurrections trailer Message-ID: <20210911102407.Horde.p5oHKMDkRkjWXhvWw2E-wSt@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting John: > > I have high hopes for it! But I do wonder, who would win in a fight, Paul > Atreides or Neo? Lol > > John ; ) That would depend on if the confrontation happens in the Matrix or outside of it, before or after either of them goes blind, and whether there is any talking or negotiating allowed or if it is simply an all-out fight. If they engaged in a blood-lusted brawl within the Matrix, I don't think that Paul would stand much of a chance against Neo. But I think the inverse would hold also, so that in real-time Neo would get his ass handed to him by Paul. Paul being blinded or Neo being blinded would make the fights a little more fair within their preferred domains and even more uneven outside of their preferred domains. No matter where the confrontation happens, if any talking or negotiating is allowed, Paul Atreides would probably end up using a combination of the voice, other memory, and prescience to convince Neo perform missions for him like the Oracle does in the Matrix movie, only in a more assertive and direct fashion. > On Thu, Sep 9, 2021 at 9:29 PM Max More via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I just watched the trailer for *The Matrix: Resurrections.* The movie >> opens Wednesday December 22. I don't care if it's borrowing heavily from >> the first movie especially. It looks great to those of us who enjoyed the >> first one. I agree that the trailer looks good, Max. :) Stuart LaForge From atymes at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 17:48:48 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 10:48:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Matrix: Resurrections trailer In-Reply-To: <20210911102407.Horde.p5oHKMDkRkjWXhvWw2E-wSt@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20210911102407.Horde.p5oHKMDkRkjWXhvWw2E-wSt@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: So how do we know that that black sky/human batteries Earth isn't just another level of the Matrix? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From write2mark1 at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 17:45:02 2021 From: write2mark1 at gmail.com (write2mark1 at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 10:45:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Matrix: Resurrections trailer In-Reply-To: <20210911102407.Horde.p5oHKMDkRkjWXhvWw2E-wSt@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20210911102407.Horde.p5oHKMDkRkjWXhvWw2E-wSt@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: who is paul? On Sat, Sep 11, 2021 at 10:25 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Quoting John: > > > > > I have high hopes for it! But I do wonder, who would win in a fight, Paul > > Atreides or Neo? Lol > > > > John ; ) > > That would depend on if the confrontation happens in the Matrix or > outside of it, before or after either of them goes blind, and whether > there is any talking or negotiating allowed or if it is simply an > all-out fight. > > If they engaged in a blood-lusted brawl within the Matrix, I don't > think that Paul would stand much of a chance against Neo. But I think > the inverse would hold also, so that in real-time Neo would get his > ass handed to him by Paul. > > Paul being blinded or Neo being blinded would make the fights a little > more fair within their preferred domains and even more uneven outside > of their preferred domains. > > No matter where the confrontation happens, if any talking or > negotiating is allowed, Paul Atreides would probably end up using a > combination of the voice, other memory, and prescience to convince Neo > perform missions for him like the Oracle does in the Matrix movie, > only in a more assertive and direct fashion. > > > > On Thu, Sep 9, 2021 at 9:29 PM Max More via extropy-chat < > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > >> I just watched the trailer for *The Matrix: Resurrections.* The movie > >> opens Wednesday December 22. I don't care if it's borrowing heavily from > >> the first movie especially. It looks great to those of us who enjoyed > the > >> first one. > > I agree that the trailer looks good, Max. :) > > Stuart LaForge > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Sat Sep 11 18:15:10 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 11:15:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Matrix: Resurrections trailer In-Reply-To: References: <20210911102407.Horde.p5oHKMDkRkjWXhvWw2E-wSt@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On 2021-9-11 10:45, write2mark1--- via extropy-chat wrote: > who is paul [Atreides]? The hero of ?Dune?, or is this a trick question? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From write2mark1 at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 18:27:50 2021 From: write2mark1 at gmail.com (mark M) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 18:27:50 +0000 Subject: [ExI] The Matrix: Resurrections trailer In-Reply-To: References: <20210911102407.Horde.p5oHKMDkRkjWXhvWw2E-wSt@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: No it's not What's that got to do with the matrix Aren't these entirely different mythological creations and universes How can one go from there to here Doesn't make any sense ________________________________ From: extropy-chat on behalf of Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2021 11:15:10 AM To: write2mark1--- via extropy-chat Cc: Anton Sherwood Subject: Re: [ExI] The Matrix: Resurrections trailer On 2021-9-11 10:45, write2mark1--- via extropy-chat wrote: > who is paul [Atreides]? The hero of ?Dune?, or is this a trick question? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 18:49:59 2021 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 14:49:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Running up against energy limits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <92A600A8-782D-4B67-9CFB-8454B8357DB9@gmail.com> John, I thought countries had a right to self-determination. SR Ballard > On Sep 11, 2021, at 7:49 AM, John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > My understanding is that Afghanistan has several trillion dollars worth of rare minerals, the sort needed for making electronics. And so I had assumed that was the real reason for the U.S. military occupying the country, was to ensure access to it. But the U.S. military completely withdrew, and now China is about to move in to "help" the Taliban and also, of course, mine those rare minerals. I am just stunned by the lack of American strategic thinking, and how a mentally deficient president can do so much damage to American foreign policy. > > John > >> On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 4:29 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat wrote: >>> On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 5:33 AM BillK via extropy-chat wrote: >>> There is a very long article just out that claims that the Afghanistan >>> disaster was fundamentally about the USA hitting resource limits. >> >> I've been watching the Netflix docuseries Turning Point. We had Afghanistan under control until we decided to focus on Iraq. >> >> Our primary bottleneck is competent leadership. The last thing we need to do is give them more capabilities by addressing resource limits. >> >> The whole idea of a war on terror is ridiculous and was doomed from the start. >> >> -Dave >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at maxmore.com Sat Sep 11 19:07:26 2021 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 19:07:26 +0000 Subject: [ExI] The Matrix: Resurrections trailer In-Reply-To: References: <20210911102407.Horde.p5oHKMDkRkjWXhvWw2E-wSt@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: Of course they are different fictional universes. But people play this game all the time. It's fun and can draw on creative thinking. If you dismiss this activity, you will never get to play with answer questions such as: Who would win? Superman or Thor? Doctor Strange or The Phantom Stranger? Zarda (Squadron Supreme) or Wonder Woman? John Wick or James Bond or Jason Bourne? Cyborg Ronald Reagan or Mutant George Washington? Jehovah or Shiva? Tesla or Edison? (Fist fight, not patent fight.) --Max ________________________________ From: extropy-chat on behalf of mark M via extropy-chat Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2021 11:27 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: mark M Subject: Re: [ExI] The Matrix: Resurrections trailer No it's not What's that got to do with the matrix Aren't these entirely different mythological creations and universes How can one go from there to here Doesn't make any sense ________________________________ From: extropy-chat on behalf of Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2021 11:15:10 AM To: write2mark1--- via extropy-chat Cc: Anton Sherwood Subject: Re: [ExI] The Matrix: Resurrections trailer On 2021-9-11 10:45, write2mark1--- via extropy-chat wrote: > who is paul [Atreides]? The hero of ?Dune?, or is this a trick question? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Sat Sep 11 19:22:39 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 12:22:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Matrix: Resurrections trailer In-Reply-To: References: <20210911102407.Horde.p5oHKMDkRkjWXhvWw2E-wSt@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <25ed1d23-1318-44b5-da27-234800488c88@pobox.com> On 2021-9-11 12:07, Max More via extropy-chat wrote: > John Wick or James Bond or Jason Bourne? Don't forget Jim West. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From max at maxmore.com Sat Sep 11 19:40:33 2021 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 19:40:33 +0000 Subject: [ExI] The Matrix: Resurrections trailer In-Reply-To: <25ed1d23-1318-44b5-da27-234800488c88@pobox.com> References: <20210911102407.Horde.p5oHKMDkRkjWXhvWw2E-wSt@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <25ed1d23-1318-44b5-da27-234800488c88@pobox.com> Message-ID: One of the best versions of these "what if X battled Y?" is the series of Epic Rap Battles of History. Some are brilliant and hilarious and few are bad. Examples: Albert Einstein vs Stephen Hawking Darth Vader vs Hitler Sarah Palin vs Lady Gaga Steve Jobs vs Bill Gates Frank Sinatra vs Freddie Mercury Batman vs Sherlock Holmes Chandi vs Martin Luther King Moses vs Santa Claus Thanos vs J Robert Oppenheimer Mother Teresa vs Sigmund Freud Dr Seuss vs Shakespeare Rasputin vs Stalin Eastern Philosophers vs Western Philosophers Bruce Banner vs Bruce Jenner https://erbofhistory.com/ [https://erbofhistory.com/%22https://i.ytimg.com/vi/kgJMaP4msTs/maxresdefault.jpg%221zT%01] Epic Rap Battles Of History Home page of Epic Rap Battles Of History, a rap group from California. ?Epic Rap Battles of History? created by Peter Shukoff (aka Nice Peter) and Lloyd Ahlquist (aka EpicLLOYD), features comedic rap battles between historical and/or pop culture figures erbofhistory.com ________________________________ From: extropy-chat on behalf of Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2021 12:22 PM To: Max More via extropy-chat Cc: Anton Sherwood Subject: Re: [ExI] The Matrix: Resurrections trailer On 2021-9-11 12:07, Max More via extropy-chat wrote: > John Wick or James Bond or Jason Bourne? Don't forget Jim West. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From write2mark1 at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 19:43:15 2021 From: write2mark1 at gmail.com (Write2Mark1) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 12:43:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Matrix: Resurrections trailer In-Reply-To: References: <20210911102407.Horde.p5oHKMDkRkjWXhvWw2E-wSt@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <80caaa5a-a347-4649-aeed-6925133d7c17@marks-iPhone-11-pro> Makes sense But why paul vs neo As they both got blind? > > On Sep 11, 2021 at 12:07 PM, wrote: > > > > Of course they are different fictional universes. But people play this game all the time. It's fun and can draw on creative thinking. If you dismiss this activity, you will never get to play with answer questions such as: > > > > Who would win? > > > > Superman or Thor? > > Doctor Strange or The Phantom Stranger? > > Zarda (Squadron Supreme) or Wonder Woman? > > John Wick or James Bond or Jason Bourne? > > Cyborg Ronald Reagan or Mutant George Washington? > > Jehovah or Shiva? > > Tesla or Edison? (Fist fight, not patent fight.) > > > > --Max > > > > > > > > From: extropy-chat on behalf of mark M via extropy-chat > Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2021 11:27 AM > To: ExI chat list > Cc: mark M > Subject: Re: [ExI] The Matrix: Resurrections trailer > > > > > > > > > No it's not > > What's that got to do with the matrix > > Aren't these entirely different mythological creations and universes > > How can one go from there to here > > Doesn't make any sense > > > > > > > > From: extropy-chat on behalf of Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat > Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2021 11:15:10 AM > To: write2mark1--- via extropy-chat > Cc: Anton Sherwood > Subject: Re: [ExI] The Matrix: Resurrections trailer > > > > > On 2021-9-11 10:45, write2mark1--- via extropy-chat wrote: > > who is paul [Atreides]? > > The hero of ?Dune?, or is this a trick question? > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org (http://www.bendwavy.org) > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org (mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org) > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From write2mark1 at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 19:47:58 2021 From: write2mark1 at gmail.com (mark M) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 19:47:58 +0000 Subject: [ExI] The Matrix: Resurrections trailer In-Reply-To: References: <20210911102407.Horde.p5oHKMDkRkjWXhvWw2E-wSt@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <25ed1d23-1318-44b5-da27-234800488c88@pobox.com> Message-ID: Eastern Philosophers vs Western Philosophers What?s this why is this interesting ________________________________ From: extropy-chat on behalf of Max More via extropy-chat Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2021 12:40:33 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: Max More Subject: Re: [ExI] The Matrix: Resurrections trailer One of the best versions of these "what if X battled Y?" is the series of Epic Rap Battles of History. Some are brilliant and hilarious and few are bad. Examples: Albert Einstein vs Stephen Hawking Darth Vader vs Hitler Sarah Palin vs Lady Gaga Steve Jobs vs Bill Gates Frank Sinatra vs Freddie Mercury Batman vs Sherlock Holmes Chandi vs Martin Luther King Moses vs Santa Claus Thanos vs J Robert Oppenheimer Mother Teresa vs Sigmund Freud Dr Seuss vs Shakespeare Rasputin vs Stalin Eastern Philosophers vs Western Philosophers Bruce Banner vs Bruce Jenner https://erbofhistory.com/ [https://erbofhistory.com/%22https://i.ytimg.com/vi/kgJMaP4msTs/maxresdefault.jpg%221zT%01] Epic Rap Battles Of History Home page of Epic Rap Battles Of History, a rap group from California. ?Epic Rap Battles of History? created by Peter Shukoff (aka Nice Peter) and Lloyd Ahlquist (aka EpicLLOYD), features comedic rap battles between historical and/or pop culture figures erbofhistory.com ________________________________ From: extropy-chat on behalf of Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2021 12:22 PM To: Max More via extropy-chat Cc: Anton Sherwood Subject: Re: [ExI] The Matrix: Resurrections trailer On 2021-9-11 12:07, Max More via extropy-chat wrote: > John Wick or James Bond or Jason Bourne? Don't forget Jim West. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sat Sep 11 20:01:40 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 21:01:40 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The Matrix: Resurrections trailer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00ca1108-e2c8-281e-c32a-26de6e48c2ba@zaiboc.net> On 11/09/2021 19:50, mark M wrote: > No it's not > What's that got to do with the matrix > Aren't these entirely different mythological creations and universes > How can one go from there to here > Doesn't make any sense > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* extropy-chat on > behalf of Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Saturday, September 11, 2021 11:15:10 AM > *To:* write2mark1--- via extropy-chat > *Cc:* Anton Sherwood > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] The Matrix: Resurrections trailer > On 2021-9-11 10:45, write2mark1--- via extropy-chat wrote: > > who is paul [Atreides]? > > The hero of ?Dune?, or is this a trick question? It's a 'Who would win in a fight, Jesus or Batman?' kind of question. These kind of questions have a? long tradition in fandom. Dalek vs. Transformer, Wolverine vs. Dracula, Luke Skywalker vs. Ironman, etc. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sat Sep 11 20:08:44 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 21:08:44 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Running up against energy limits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <716b7276-a61f-3ac0-138e-3b0e7db6dc6d@zaiboc.net> On 11/09/2021 19:50, SR Ballard wrote: > I thought countries had a right to self-determination. Rights only exist to the extent that one can enforce them, or that someone else can enforce them on one's behalf. Aren't Americans supposed to have the right to the pursuit of happiness? Tell that to a gay atheist in Tennessee. Ben From max at maxmore.com Sat Sep 11 20:11:03 2021 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 20:11:03 +0000 Subject: [ExI] The Matrix: Resurrections trailer In-Reply-To: References: <20210911102407.Horde.p5oHKMDkRkjWXhvWw2E-wSt@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <25ed1d23-1318-44b5-da27-234800488c88@pobox.com> Message-ID: Ooh, yes, thanks Mark. I had seen the first one but forgot to include it. I'd love to do a rap battle on life extension or transhumanism. ________________________________ From: Mark S. Miller Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2021 12:57 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: Max More Subject: Re: [ExI] The Matrix: Resurrections trailer Missing from this list are the most Epic Rap Battles Of History : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0nERTFo-Sk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTQnarzmTOc On Sat, Sep 11, 2021 at 12:42 PM Max More via extropy-chat > wrote: One of the best versions of these "what if X battled Y?" is the series of Epic Rap Battles of History. Some are brilliant and hilarious and few are bad. Examples: Albert Einstein vs Stephen Hawking Darth Vader vs Hitler Sarah Palin vs Lady Gaga Steve Jobs vs Bill Gates Frank Sinatra vs Freddie Mercury Batman vs Sherlock Holmes Chandi vs Martin Luther King Moses vs Santa Claus Thanos vs J Robert Oppenheimer Mother Teresa vs Sigmund Freud Dr Seuss vs Shakespeare Rasputin vs Stalin Eastern Philosophers vs Western Philosophers Bruce Banner vs Bruce Jenner https://erbofhistory.com/ [https://erbofhistory.com/%22https://i.ytimg.com/vi/kgJMaP4msTs/maxresdefault.jpg%221zT%01] Epic Rap Battles Of History Home page of Epic Rap Battles Of History, a rap group from California. ?Epic Rap Battles of History? created by Peter Shukoff (aka Nice Peter) and Lloyd Ahlquist (aka EpicLLOYD), features comedic rap battles between historical and/or pop culture figures erbofhistory.com ________________________________ From: extropy-chat > on behalf of Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat > Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2021 12:22 PM To: Max More via extropy-chat > Cc: Anton Sherwood > Subject: Re: [ExI] The Matrix: Resurrections trailer On 2021-9-11 12:07, Max More via extropy-chat wrote: > John Wick or James Bond or Jason Bourne? Don't forget Jim West. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -- Cheers, --MarkM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From erights at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 19:57:20 2021 From: erights at gmail.com (Mark S. Miller) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 12:57:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Matrix: Resurrections trailer In-Reply-To: References: <20210911102407.Horde.p5oHKMDkRkjWXhvWw2E-wSt@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <25ed1d23-1318-44b5-da27-234800488c88@pobox.com> Message-ID: Missing from this list are the most Epic Rap Battles Of History : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0nERTFo-Sk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTQnarzmTOc On Sat, Sep 11, 2021 at 12:42 PM Max More via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > One of the best versions of these "what if X battled Y?" is the series of > Epic Rap Battles of History. Some are brilliant and hilarious and few are > bad. Examples: > > Albert Einstein vs Stephen Hawking > Darth Vader vs Hitler > Sarah Palin vs Lady Gaga > Steve Jobs vs Bill Gates > Frank Sinatra vs Freddie Mercury > Batman vs Sherlock Holmes > Chandi vs Martin Luther King > Moses vs Santa Claus > Thanos vs J Robert Oppenheimer > Mother Teresa vs Sigmund Freud > Dr Seuss vs Shakespeare > Rasputin vs Stalin > Eastern Philosophers vs Western Philosophers > Bruce Banner vs Bruce Jenner > > https://erbofhistory.com/ > > Epic Rap Battles Of History > Home page of Epic Rap Battles Of History, a rap group from California. > ?Epic Rap Battles of History? created by Peter Shukoff (aka Nice Peter) and > Lloyd Ahlquist (aka EpicLLOYD), features comedic rap battles between > historical and/or pop culture figures > erbofhistory.com > > ------------------------------ > *From:* extropy-chat on behalf > of Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Saturday, September 11, 2021 12:22 PM > *To:* Max More via extropy-chat > *Cc:* Anton Sherwood > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] The Matrix: Resurrections trailer > > On 2021-9-11 12:07, Max More via extropy-chat wrote: > > John Wick or James Bond or Jason Bourne? > > Don't forget Jim West. > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Cheers, --MarkM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Sat Sep 11 21:04:33 2021 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 14:04:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Running up against energy limits Message-ID: <20210911140433.Horde.NHNMdzIWocdhu5EeHA_R3sx@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting BilK: > > There is a very long article just out that claims that the Afghanistan > disaster was fundamentally about the USA hitting resource limits. > > I disagree with the premise of the article that the U.S. pull-out from Afghanistan is what constitutes the "Afghanistan disaster". What constitutes the Afghanistan disaster was sending armies to a land that has been historically difficult to conquer, and near impossible to hold for any substantial length of time in order to nation-build in the first place. As far as bringing Bin Ladin to justice for 9-11, we should have never sent the Army and the Marines to do the job of a single SEAL team. Pulling out of Afghanistan was not a disaster, instead it freed America from the sunk-cost fallacy that somehow throwing more money, bombs, and bullets, or lives for that matter, at the situation there would fix it. I don't care if they have Pax Americana or the Cultural Revolution, so long as they have the peace and the rule of law. > > Quote: > The Afghanistan Fiasco (and Today?s High Level of Conflict) Reflect an > Energy Problem > > Posted on August 30, 2021 by Gail Tverberg > > There is a saying, ?Everything happens for a reason.? The fiasco in > Afghanistan is no exception to this rule. Even though it is not > obvious, the United States is up against energy limits. It needed to > pull back from Afghanistan to try to have enough energy to continue in > its other roles, such as providing benefits for its growing army of > retirees, and building infrastructure to mitigate the COVID-19 > downturn. Yes, which is precisely why the U.S. leaving Afghanistan was not a disaster. One can debate if it could have been done more gracefully, but sometimes you just got to rip off the Band-Aid and be done with. > The fundamental problem is that governments can add debt and other > indirect promises of resources that create goods and services, but > they cannot actually create the low-cost energy, water and mineral > resources needed to fulfill those promises. Bullshit. The Manhattan project was literally the government innovating a low-cost energy resource out of a physical theory. The fact that we let short-sighted NIMBYs irrationally derail and deny us the full promise of nuclear energy on an almost superstitious basis is ridiculous. Want to save on fossil fuels? Drive electric cars kept charged by nuclear reactors while funding fusion research. > Looks like we *really* need a cheap energy replacement for fossil fuels > as soon as possible. > (Then we can get back to fighting more wars as usual). :( What Tverberg considers renewables are a bunch of non-starters in terms of EROEI. Nukes now and fusion later; that is the only thing that will save us. Hydrogen is the most abundant substance in the universe. Mastering controlled fusion will keep Malthus at bay for a long time. Stuart LaForge From write2mark1 at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 21:15:55 2021 From: write2mark1 at gmail.com (write2mark1 at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 14:15:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Matrix: Resurrections trailer In-Reply-To: <00ca1108-e2c8-281e-c32a-26de6e48c2ba@zaiboc.net> References: <00ca1108-e2c8-281e-c32a-26de6e48c2ba@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: > > trump vs biden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Sep 11 22:29:27 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 15:29:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] patent fight: was: RE: The Matrix: Resurrections trailer Message-ID: <009a01d7a75c$7bfb3710$73f1a530$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Max More via extropy-chat >.It's fun and can draw on creative thinking. If you dismiss this activity, you will never get to play with answer questions such as: . >.Tesla or Edison? (Fist fight, not patent fight.) --Max _____ What a cool idea Max! Fist fights, eh too caveman for my taste. But that patent fight business, that sounds like it has real potential for a great game. Actual patents cost money, but we aughta be able to come up with some kind of game based on thinking of new ideas. For instance. I just got back from Stanford. The main road going in there has houses with short driveways. A good example is 1079 Embarcadero Road, shown below and you can see the guy's gray minvan there. There's a huge tree you see there, partially obscuring his view to the east and the westbounders view of him. His view to the west down the Embarcadero eastbound lanes isn't great either. If that feller wants to go anywhere, such as the freeway which is right there, he hasta back out across westbound Embarcadero into the eastbound lanes, turn his wheel to his left to get pointed out the way he wants to go. I witnessed this maneuver from a stoplight just off the right side of the photo below just today. Problem: Wildwood Lane doesn't have a stoplight there. Some drug-crazed yahoo could tear around that corner on two wheels trying to get back to Palo Alto High before her lunch break is over, and BOOM that guy's troubles would be over forever. I witnessed some crazy yahoo come tearing around that corner about 10 seconds after Mister 1079 Embarc backed out. OK. A miss is as good as a mile, he gets to live another day. But his luck is going to run out eventually I fear. Idea: there is sufficient room in that short driveway to build a turntable. We know at car shows there are such things, but that isn't really what I have in mind, for that would be expensive and would be too easy anyway. A caveman could hire people to install that. But I thought of a way to build a homebrew turntable nearly flush with the ground using stuff ordinary proles could find easily: a truck wheel hub assembly. The conic bearings on those rigs would easily bear the load both in thrust and torque that an ordinary passenger car would deliver to it. The whole assembly is already weather sealed, and already has a grease zerk for easy periodic maintenance. Cool! That whole notion would require sinking a hole about 20 cm down and about 50 cm across, the hub assembly could go down there, welded to a base plate, then the turntable could be made of channel iron (C-section) beams in an H configuration. I know how to do all the necessary sizing calculations. A coupla fellers with a welder could build something like that for a coupla thousand bucks methinks. That's play money for anyone who lives in Palo Alto. I digress however, for that has little or nothing to do with patents. But Max's patent fight comment brings up another kinda related idea: we could have fist fights where the pugilists are dressed up as cavemen. Sounds like fun, however I digress even further into the abysss of absurdity. I have half a mind to sketch up the idea and mail it, addressed to: Feller who lives at 1079 Embarcadero, Palo Alto CA. Adrian, isn't Palo Alto in your neighborhood? You and I could start a side biz making low-cost turntables for proles living on Embarcadero Road. You could use the earnings from that to support your rocket science habit. I have a welder. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 63413 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Sep 11 22:40:53 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 15:40:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] epic rap battles, was: RE: The Matrix: Resurrections trailer Message-ID: <00a701d7a75e$14985150$3dc8f3f0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Max More via extropy-chat Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2021 12:41 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: Max More Subject: Re: [ExI] The Matrix: Resurrections trailer One of the best versions of these "what if X battled Y?" is the series of Epic Rap Battles of History. Some are brilliant and hilarious and few are bad. Examples: Albert Einstein vs Stephen Hawking. OK, you're on, Max. You and me pal, epic rap battle, we both hafta be dressed as cavemen. Fun aside: we were at Extro 4 in Berkeley in about. when? 1999? I had some fellers over at my house. The internet was new-ish then, but there was some fun stuff out there. For instance, there was a site which did text to speech of the kind Steven Hawking was using that that time. Being as he is the most famous person to use that, everyone associated that voice with Hawking. We don't even know what the real Hawking sounded like, but rather associate him with that artificial voice. Max and Hawking are both from Great Britain, so the real Hawking probably likely sounded a lot more like More than like that artificial Hawking voice. In any case, after E4, a bunch of guys came over, we found a site where they said Steven Hawking had taken up rap. They text-to-speeched the Hawking voice with actual rap lyrics. Use your imagination. We thought we were going to get a brain hemorrhage laughing at the silliness. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Sep 11 22:54:56 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 15:54:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Matrix: Resurrections trailer In-Reply-To: References: <20210911102407.Horde.p5oHKMDkRkjWXhvWw2E-wSt@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <25ed1d23-1318-44b5-da27-234800488c88@pobox.com> Message-ID: <00b901d7a760$0ac23e00$2046ba00$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Mark S. Miller via extropy-chat >?Subject: Re: [ExI] The Matrix: Resurrections trailer >?Missing from this list are the most Epic Rap Battles Of History : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0nERTFo-Sk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTQnarzmTOc >?Mark This is exceedingly wicked cool! I retract all the derogatory comments about rap. If they would use lyrics like the rap battle above, the genre really does get me wanting to dance (and cheer wildly for Hayek of course.) spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 00:55:40 2021 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 18:55:40 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Qualia are not in the matrix (was Re: The Matrix: Resurrections trailer) In-Reply-To: References: <20210911102407.Horde.p5oHKMDkRkjWXhvWw2E-wSt@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: We do know that our redness and greenness, out of which our consciousness is composed, is not in the matrix. Qualia are intrinsic qualities of something in all those brains, in all those vats, in the basement level physical reality. They are not in the matrix. We'll I guess that IS a falsifiable claim, right Stathis? The functionalists predicting that redness and greenness can arise (magically?) from anything "functioning" correctly. But until that is demonstrated (redness magically arising from some function, and we know which function! SQRT?), I'm staying with assuming my qualia are intrinsic qualities of a basement level physical reality. But, yes, I love the matrix movie and how it plays with the brain in a vat, not YET falsified, theoretical possibility. And we constantly refer to searching for "THE ONE" theory of consciousness which will remain standing, after all others have been falsified in our Video . People interested in this topic may be interested in the "Implications for the simulation hypothesis " chapter. And in the new "Computational Binding" chapter, we are about to put online, we borrow lots of scenes from the original matrix. Oh, and we learn that the spoon, that little kid is bending with his mind, only seems to be chrome in color. It is just our knowledge of the spoon or part of "ourselves" in our brain, that has that chrome color and is bending. We learn that the actual spoon, the one out there, not part of us... it's real intrinsic color, is redness! ;) (At least redness being still a not yet falsified hypothetical possibility, like all the other crazy but still yet to be falsified theories, waiting for us to discover which of all our descriptions of stuff in the world, is a description of redness ;) On Sat, Sep 11, 2021 at 11:50 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > So how do we know that that black sky/human batteries Earth isn't just > another level of the Matrix? > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 00:56:29 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 17:56:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Matrix: Resurrections trailer In-Reply-To: References: <20210911102407.Horde.p5oHKMDkRkjWXhvWw2E-wSt@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <25ed1d23-1318-44b5-da27-234800488c88@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 11, 2021 at 1:19 PM Max More via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I'd love to do a rap battle on life extension or transhumanism. > Who would you battle? Most of those I can think of who would agree to a battle, I believe are on your side for all the significant points. More importantly, how would this battle get promoted? Might one talk Adam Savage into allowing a panel to have this live on stage at next year's SiliCon, with a professionally recorded version uploaded to YouTube and released after the panel? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 01:04:58 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 18:04:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Qualia are not in the matrix (was Re: The Matrix: Resurrections trailer) In-Reply-To: References: <20210911102407.Horde.p5oHKMDkRkjWXhvWw2E-wSt@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 11, 2021 at 5:55 PM Brent Allsop wrote: > We do know that our redness and greenness, out of which our > consciousness is composed, is not in the matrix. Qualia are intrinsic > qualities of something in all those brains, in all those vats, in the > basement level physical reality. They are not in the matrix. > > We'll I guess that IS a falsifiable claim, right Stathis? The > functionalists predicting that redness and greenness can arise (magically?) > from anything "functioning" correctly. > But until that is demonstrated (redness magically arising from some > function, and we know which function! SQRT?), I'm staying with assuming my > qualia are intrinsic qualities of a basement level physical reality. > It is shown that each human plugged into the Matrix has a series of physical plugs, through which stimuli are fed in. They experience simulated redness and greenness - which may well not be the same as actual redness and greenness, but they have no way to know if they have never been awake outside of the Matrix. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 01:22:16 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 11:22:16 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Qualia are not in the matrix (was Re: The Matrix: Resurrections trailer) In-Reply-To: References: <20210911102407.Horde.p5oHKMDkRkjWXhvWw2E-wSt@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 12 Sept 2021 at 10:57, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > We do know that our redness and greenness, out of which our > consciousness is composed, is not in the matrix. Qualia are intrinsic > qualities of something in all those brains, in all those vats, in the > basement level physical reality. They are not in the matrix. > > We'll I guess that IS a falsifiable claim, right Stathis? The > functionalists predicting that redness and greenness can arise (magically?) > from anything "functioning" correctly. > But until that is demonstrated (redness magically arising from some > function, and we know which function! SQRT?), I'm staying with assuming my > qualia are intrinsic qualities of a basement level physical reality. > Can you explain how it would be less "magic" if qualia arose from a substance than from a function? It at least makes some sort of sense that if you are engaged in the process of looking at something you would have qualia associated with vision rather than some other activity, and that the qualia would not occur unless the appropriate process was occurring. On the other hand, if qualia were associated with a substance they would be lying there in the substance perhaps for billions of years before any conscious beings existed. Also, I haven't understood how you would falsify the idea that qualia are specific to a substance. If we replaced a part of a person's brain with a functionally equivalent component they would (by definition) say that they were experiencing exactly the same qualia, and then what would you conclude? > > But, yes, I love the matrix movie and how it plays with the brain in a > vat, not YET falsified, theoretical possibility. And we constantly refer > to searching for "THE ONE" theory of consciousness which will remain > standing, after all others have been falsified in our Video > . People interested in this > topic may be interested in the "Implications for the simulation hypothesis > " > chapter. > > And in the new "Computational Binding" chapter, we are about to put > online, we borrow lots of scenes from the original matrix. Oh, and we > learn that the spoon, that little kid is bending with his mind, only seems > to be chrome in color. It is just our knowledge of the spoon or part of > "ourselves" in our brain, that has that chrome color and is bending. We > learn that the actual spoon, the one out there, not part of us... it's real > intrinsic color, is redness! ;) (At least redness being still a not yet > falsified hypothetical possibility, like all the other crazy but still yet > to be falsified theories, waiting for us to discover which of all our > descriptions of stuff in the world, is a description of redness ;) > > > > > On Sat, Sep 11, 2021 at 11:50 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> So how do we know that that black sky/human batteries Earth isn't just >> another level of the Matrix? >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 02:57:19 2021 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 20:57:19 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Qualia are not in the matrix (was Re: The Matrix: Resurrections trailer) In-Reply-To: References: <20210911102407.Horde.p5oHKMDkRkjWXhvWw2E-wSt@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: Hi Adrian, On Sat, Sep 11, 2021 at 7:12 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > It is shown that each human plugged into the Matrix has a series of > physical plugs, through which stimuli are fed in. > Yes, obviously. the final result of that process being knowledge, composed of redness and greenness, in the brain, in all those vats. They experience simulated redness and greenness - which may well not be > the same as actual redness and greenness, > Yay, you may well not be qualia blind. You are almost distinguishing between red (the property of something which reflects a particular wavelength of light) and redness (an intrinsic quality of your knowledge of red things.) > but they have no way to know if they have never been awake outside of the > Matrix. > Not true. Your left hemisphere knows absolutely, through computational binding achieved via the corpus callosum, not only that it is not the only hemisphere in existence, it also knows, absolutely, that the redness in that other hemisphere is the same as it's redness. If the optic nerve red/green inverted knowledge in only the left hemisphere, or if you just used a neural ponytail to bind with someone that was red green inverted, the right hemisphere would know that, absolutely, of that red/green qualia inversion. Neural ponytails that can enable the same kind of direct apprehension of intrinsic qualities outside of our skull, will absolutely falsify skeptical theories like solipsism, and crazy theories like: 'We are a brain in a vat. To better understand this, jump to 10:30 minutes into the "Differentiating between reality and knowledge of reality" chapter with this link . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 03:20:00 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 13:20:00 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Qualia are not in the matrix (was Re: The Matrix: Resurrections trailer) In-Reply-To: References: <20210911102407.Horde.p5oHKMDkRkjWXhvWw2E-wSt@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 12 Sept 2021 at 12:59, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Hi Adrian, > > On Sat, Sep 11, 2021 at 7:12 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> It is shown that each human plugged into the Matrix has a series of >> physical plugs, through which stimuli are fed in. >> > Yes, obviously. the final result of that process being knowledge, composed > of redness and greenness, in the brain, in all those vats. > > They experience simulated redness and greenness - which may well not be >> the same as actual redness and greenness, >> > Yay, you may well not be qualia blind. You are almost distinguishing > between red (the property of something which reflects a particular > wavelength of light) and redness (an intrinsic quality of your knowledge > of red things.) > > >> but they have no way to know if they have never been awake outside of the >> Matrix. >> > Not true. Your left hemisphere knows absolutely, through computational > binding achieved via the corpus callosum, not only that it is not the only > hemisphere in existence, it also knows, absolutely, that the redness in > that other hemisphere is the same as it's redness. > No, your left hemisphere does not know this. It just knows what it is like to have a redness experience when connected to the right hemisphere. It cannot know what the right hemisphere would experience on its own. Similarly, a patient with a cochlear implant knows what it is like to be a brain-cochlear implant system. He does not know what it is like to be a cochlear implant. > If the optic nerve red/green inverted knowledge in only the left > hemisphere, or if you just used a neural ponytail to bind with someone that > was red green inverted, the right hemisphere would know that, absolutely, > of that red/green qualia inversion. > > Neural ponytails that can enable the same kind of direct apprehension of > intrinsic qualities outside of our skull, will absolutely falsify skeptical > theories like solipsism, and crazy theories like: 'We are a brain in a vat. > > To better understand this, jump to 10:30 minutes into the "Differentiating > between reality and knowledge of reality" chapter with this link > > . > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 03:35:05 2021 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 21:35:05 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Qualia are not in the matrix (was Re: The Matrix: Resurrections trailer) In-Reply-To: References: <20210911102407.Horde.p5oHKMDkRkjWXhvWw2E-wSt@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 11, 2021 at 7:23 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Can you explain how it would be less "magic" if qualia arose from a > substance than from a function? > Of course, what you say is equally problematic in both cases, but only IF you accept the "arose" assumption to start with. That is the assumption causing all these contradictory 'hard problems". All these contradiction and so called 'hard problems' are proving absolutely, that there is a problem with your assumptions. Once you lose that assumption, all the contradictions and problems go away. Everything becomes simple every day demonstrable intrinsic physical qualities of stuff. It is not magic, to think of a strawberry as being intrinsically red. The intrinsic colors of things is just every day demonstrable elementary school physics, not magic. It is those intrinsic qualities of physics which represent the 1s and 0s you so love. But only if you have a dictionary to tell you which intrinsic qualities represent a 1. We just need to realize, that our description of the behavior of something the reflects red light, tells us nothing of what the behavior is qualitatively like. It is our description of glutamate, reacting in a synapse, that is the description of an intrinsic redness quality we can directly apprehend representing our knowledge of red things with that intrinsic quality. Also, I haven't understood how you would falsify the idea that qualia are > specific to a substance. > I've tried many times to explain this. But you must keep mapping my explanations, into your qualia blind world, and into your 'arises' assumptions, making it impossible for you to understand the trivially simple stuff I'm trying to describe. We are predicting that it is glutamate, and only glutamate, which has the intrinsic redness quality. We predict that nobody, especially functionalists, will ever be able to produce a redness experience, without that glutamate, and that absolutely every time someone directly apprehends glutamate, that behavior will always only ever have that same redness quality behavior. Never failing, never falsifiable, never changing. (oh, and if you don't like glutamate, pick another description of something in the brain, because it's got to be one of our descriptions of all that different stuff in the brain.) That is not magic, intrinsic colors of physical stuff is just every day demonstrable elementary school physics. Once you lose the 'rises' assumption, all the hard problems disappear, and everything becomes everyday commonly demonstrable intrinsic physical qualities anyone and everyone can directly apprehend with a neural ponytail that can do computational binding (something impossible in your world of only discrete logic, as proven by the neural substitution). If we replaced a part of a person's brain with a functionally equivalent > component they would (by definition) say that they were experiencing > exactly the same qualia, and then what would you conclude? > That is exactly what I meant by my claim is falsifiable. IF someone is able to produce redness, from any function, that will obviously falsify my claim. I will jump to the functionalist camp in that case. In fact, I'll even jump to the functionalist camp, IF you can give me an equally believable "function" that you would predict has a redness quality, which I could falsify, similar to my prediction that it is glutamate that has an intrinsic redness quality is falsifiable. For example saying it is the Square Root function, just doesn't even pass the laugh test. That is my point, there is no function, from which a redness quality can arise, it's just absurd, proving, to me at least, that someplace, you are making incorrect assumptions. Intrinsic qualities, like redness and greenness, are simply physical qualities of something in our brain. That is just elementary school all day every day demonstrable physical reality, not magic. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 03:48:20 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 13:48:20 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Qualia are not in the matrix (was Re: The Matrix: Resurrections trailer) In-Reply-To: References: <20210911102407.Horde.p5oHKMDkRkjWXhvWw2E-wSt@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 12 Sept 2021 at 13:37, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sat, Sep 11, 2021 at 7:23 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Can you explain how it would be less "magic" if qualia arose from a >> substance than from a function? >> > Of course, what you say is equally problematic in both cases, but only IF > you accept the "arose" assumption to start with. That is the assumption > causing all these contradictory 'hard problems". All these > contradiction and so called 'hard problems' are proving absolutely, that > there is a problem with your assumptions. Once you lose that assumption, > all the contradictions and problems go away. Everything becomes > simple every day demonstrable intrinsic physical qualities of stuff. > > It is not magic, to think of a strawberry as being intrinsically red. The > intrinsic colors of things is just every day demonstrable elementary school > physics, not magic. It is those intrinsic qualities of physics which > represent the 1s and 0s you so love. But only if you have a dictionary to > tell you which intrinsic qualities represent a 1. We just need to realize, > that our description of the behavior of something the reflects red light, > tells us nothing of what the behavior is qualitatively like. It is our > description of glutamate, reacting in a synapse, that is the description of > an intrinsic redness quality we can directly apprehend representing our > knowledge of red things with that intrinsic quality. > But the hard problem is not solved by saying "glutamate has a redness quality", since one can always ask WHY glutamate has a redness quality rather than a greenness quality, or no quality at all. > Also, I haven't understood how you would falsify the idea that qualia are >> specific to a substance. >> > I've tried many times to explain this. But you must keep mapping my > explanations, into your qualia blind world, and into your 'arises' > assumptions, making it impossible for you to understand the trivially > simple stuff I'm trying to describe. > > We are predicting that it is glutamate, and only glutamate, which has the > intrinsic redness quality. We predict that nobody, especially > functionalists, will ever be able to produce a redness experience, without > that glutamate, and that absolutely every time someone directly apprehends > glutamate, that behavior will always only ever have that same redness > quality behavior. Never failing, never falsifiable, never changing. (oh, > and if you don't like glutamate, pick another description of something in > the brain, because it's got to be one of our descriptions of all that > different stuff in the brain.) That is not magic, intrinsic colors of > physical stuff is just every day demonstrable elementary school physics. > Once you lose the 'rises' assumption, all the hard problems disappear, and > everything becomes everyday commonly demonstrable intrinsic physical > qualities anyone and everyone can directly apprehend with a neural ponytail > that can do computational binding (something impossible in your world of > only discrete logic, as proven by the neural substitution). > > If we replaced a part of a person's brain with a functionally equivalent >> component they would (by definition) say that they were experiencing >> exactly the same qualia, and then what would you conclude? >> > That is exactly what I meant by my claim is falsifiable. IF someone is > able to produce redness, from any function, that will obviously falsify my > claim. I will jump to the functionalist camp in that case. > In fact, I'll even jump to the functionalist camp, IF you can give me an > equally believable "function" that you would predict has a redness quality, > which I could falsify, similar to my prediction that it is glutamate that > has an intrinsic redness quality is falsifiable. For example saying it is > the Square Root function, just doesn't even pass the laugh test. That is > my point, there is no function, from which a redness quality can arise, > it's just absurd, proving, to me at least, that someplace, you are making > incorrect assumptions. > > Intrinsic qualities, like redness and greenness, are simply physical > qualities of something in our brain. That is just elementary school all > day every day demonstrable physical reality, not magic. > Well, then you are a functionalist! Praise be! The functionalist position is just the above: that IF we replaced part of a person's brain and they said they were experiencing exactly the same qualia (and whatever other test you want to throw at them), then they would be experiencing exactly the same qualia. There is no assumption that this is possible, just that IF it were possible, the only reasonable conclusion would be that the qualia have in fact been reproduced. -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 04:03:31 2021 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 22:03:31 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Qualia are not in the matrix (was Re: The Matrix: Resurrections trailer) In-Reply-To: References: <20210911102407.Horde.p5oHKMDkRkjWXhvWw2E-wSt@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: Hi Stathis, On Sat, Sep 11, 2021 at 9:50 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > But the hard problem is not solved by saying "glutamate has a redness > quality", since one can always ask WHY glutamate has a redness quality > rather than a greenness quality, or no quality at all. > OK, you've got me there. But let me ask you this, do rocket scientists ask why force equals mass times acceleration? No, they just use that never failing knowledge to dance in the heavens with their rockets. The same is true with redness. Engineers don't need to know why glutamate and only glutamate has a redness quality. They just need to know if they want to engineer a being that can know what redness is like, they can always use only glutamate. > Intrinsic qualities, like redness and greenness, are simply physical >> qualities of something in our brain. That is just elementary school all >> day every day demonstrable physical reality, not magic. >> > > Well, then you are a functionalist! Praise be! The functionalist position > is just the above: that IF we replaced part of a person's brain and they > said they were experiencing exactly the same qualia (and whatever other > test you want to throw at them), then they would be experiencing exactly > the same qualia. There is no assumption that this is possible, just that IF > it were possible, the only reasonable conclusion would be that the qualia > have in fact been reproduced. > Again, I admit that if someone produces a redness experience from a function, my falsifiable claims will be falsified. But you've got to give me an idea of what function it is which has any possibility of passing the laugh test for having redness quality. It certainly isn't a square root function, or any other 'function' that I can Emagine. Why do you never provide an example function that has a redness quality? The way I'm providing a falsifiable example of glutamate having a redness quality. Because even the idea of any and all functions having a redness quality would be completely absurd, not passing the laugh test. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 04:47:18 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 14:47:18 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Qualia are not in the matrix (was Re: The Matrix: Resurrections trailer) In-Reply-To: References: <20210911102407.Horde.p5oHKMDkRkjWXhvWw2E-wSt@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 12 Sep 2021 at 14:05, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Hi Stathis, > On Sat, Sep 11, 2021 at 9:50 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> But the hard problem is not solved by saying "glutamate has a redness >> quality", since one can always ask WHY glutamate has a redness quality >> rather than a greenness quality, or no quality at all. >> > > OK, you've got me there. But let me ask you this, do rocket scientists > ask why force equals mass times acceleration? No, they just use that never > failing knowledge to dance in the heavens with their rockets. > The same is true with redness. Engineers don't need to know why glutamate > and only glutamate has a redness quality. They just need to know if they > want to engineer a being that can know what redness is like, they can > always use only glutamate. > > >> Intrinsic qualities, like redness and greenness, are simply physical >>> qualities of something in our brain. That is just elementary school all >>> day every day demonstrable physical reality, not magic. >>> >> >> Well, then you are a functionalist! Praise be! The functionalist position >> is just the above: that IF we replaced part of a person's brain and they >> said they were experiencing exactly the same qualia (and whatever other >> test you want to throw at them), then they would be experiencing exactly >> the same qualia. There is no assumption that this is possible, just that IF >> it were possible, the only reasonable conclusion would be that the qualia >> have in fact been reproduced. >> > > Again, I admit that if someone produces a redness experience from a > function, my falsifiable claims will be falsified. But you've got to give > me an idea of what function it is which has any possibility of passing the > laugh test for having redness quality. It certainly isn't a square root > function, or any other 'function' that I can Emagine. Why do you never > provide an example function that has a redness quality? The way I'm > providing a falsifiable example of glutamate having a redness quality. > Because even the idea of any and all functions having a redness quality > would be completely absurd, not passing the laugh test. > The function is that the person says ?I see red, it looks exactly the same to me?, that he identifies red things correctly, that if he is a painter his paintings are just as good as before and make just as good a use of colour as before, and everything else pertaining to red. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 05:45:21 2021 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 23:45:21 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Qualia are not in the matrix (was Re: The Matrix: Resurrections trailer) In-Reply-To: References: <20210911102407.Horde.p5oHKMDkRkjWXhvWw2E-wSt@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: Stathis, evidently you can't see how qualia blind this claim is? You are talking about stuff that has nothing to do with the intrinsic qualities or physical properties enabling that substrate independent functionality. You could engineer two people, one representing redness with glutamate, the other representing redness with glycine. The dictionary of one would say it is glutamate representing red, the other's dictionary would say glycine is representing the red. Without two different dictionaries, you couldn't achieve that substrate independence. But with different dictionaries, they can perform, independently from whatever is representing red. You are talking about behavior, after you have substrate independent enabling dictionaries. And it remains a fact, that those two engineer systems are represent red things with physically different or qualitatively different things, before those dictionaries. All the functionality you are talking about, has nothing to do with what physical qualities are representing red and what they are physically like. You are talking about everything after the substrate enabling dictionary, I am talking about the actual physical qualities, that are different, that require different dictionaries to perform the same function. For one, glutamate is red, for the other glycine is red. Sure, in both of these cases, they have knowledge of the same red. Why are you talking about that? We are talking about the quality of the stuff, before the different dictionaries, and the fact that they are, qualitatively, different. On Sat, Sep 11, 2021 at 10:48 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Sun, 12 Sep 2021 at 14:05, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Hi Stathis, >> On Sat, Sep 11, 2021 at 9:50 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> But the hard problem is not solved by saying "glutamate has a redness >>> quality", since one can always ask WHY glutamate has a redness quality >>> rather than a greenness quality, or no quality at all. >>> >> >> OK, you've got me there. But let me ask you this, do rocket scientists >> ask why force equals mass times acceleration? No, they just use that never >> failing knowledge to dance in the heavens with their rockets. >> The same is true with redness. Engineers don't need to know why >> glutamate and only glutamate has a redness quality. They just need to know >> if they want to engineer a being that can know what redness is like, they >> can always use only glutamate. >> >> >>> Intrinsic qualities, like redness and greenness, are simply physical >>>> qualities of something in our brain. That is just elementary school all >>>> day every day demonstrable physical reality, not magic. >>>> >>> >>> Well, then you are a functionalist! Praise be! The functionalist >>> position is just the above: that IF we replaced part of a person's brain >>> and they said they were experiencing exactly the same qualia (and whatever >>> other test you want to throw at them), then they would be experiencing >>> exactly the same qualia. There is no assumption that this is possible, just >>> that IF it were possible, the only reasonable conclusion would be that the >>> qualia have in fact been reproduced. >>> >> >> Again, I admit that if someone produces a redness experience from a >> function, my falsifiable claims will be falsified. But you've got to give >> me an idea of what function it is which has any possibility of passing the >> laugh test for having redness quality. It certainly isn't a square root >> function, or any other 'function' that I can Emagine. Why do you never >> provide an example function that has a redness quality? The way I'm >> providing a falsifiable example of glutamate having a redness quality. >> Because even the idea of any and all functions having a redness quality >> would be completely absurd, not passing the laugh test. >> > > The function is that the person says ?I see red, it looks exactly the same > to me?, that he identifies red things correctly, that if he is a painter > his paintings are just as good as before and make just as good a use of > colour as before, and everything else pertaining to red. > >> -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 20:54:16 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 13:54:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Running up against energy limits In-Reply-To: <002901d7a70b$ce570fd0$6b052f70$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d7a70b$ce570fd0$6b052f70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike wrote: "The Chinese are already there John. The surviving Afghanis will not like what comes next." This will actually be a big test for the CCP. Will they cooperate with the Taliban, for a mutually productive economic relationship? Or will they give in to temptation, as did Britain, Russia, and America, and invade/occupy Afghanistan? I could actually envision Xi Jinping ordering an invasion as a means to toughen up China's military and give them combat experience. But I could see the parents of his nation seriously acting up when the bodies start getting shipped home... Billw wrote: "In all the long time we were in Afghanistan did we mine any minerals?" As far as I know, we did not. SR Ballard wrote: "John, I thought countries had a right to self-determination." They do. But is the Taliban the rightful leadership of Afghanistan? Lol Well, it could be said might makes right, at least in that part of the world. I loved Spike's idea of how America should have trained all able bodied adults there to be part of a well-armed citizen's militia. The Taliban would be contending with their worst nightmare right now! John On Sat, Sep 11, 2021 at 5:55 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > On Sat, 11 Sep 2021 at 21:48, John Grigg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ?, and now China is about to move in to "help" the Taliban and also, of > course, mine those rare minerals? > > > > > > > > The Chinese are already there John. The surviving Afghanis will not like > what comes next. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 06:02:29 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 16:02:29 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Qualia are not in the matrix (was Re: The Matrix: Resurrections trailer) In-Reply-To: References: <20210911102407.Horde.p5oHKMDkRkjWXhvWw2E-wSt@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 12 Sep 2021 at 15:47, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Stathis, evidently you can't see how qualia blind this claim is? You are > talking about stuff that has nothing to do with the intrinsic qualities or > physical properties enabling that substrate independent functionality. > What I?m saying is that if you could do the experiment, making any change whatsoever in the person?s brain, and after the change he said that everything felt exactly the same, then everything would indeed feel exactly the same. Isn?t that the experiment you proposed? If not, what adjustments would you suggest? You could engineer two people, one representing redness with glutamate, the > other representing redness with glycine. The dictionary of one would say > it is glutamate representing red, the other's dictionary would say > glycine is representing the red. Without two different dictionaries, you > couldn't achieve that substrate independence. But with different > dictionaries, they can perform, independently from whatever is > representing red. You are talking about behavior, after you have substrate > independent enabling dictionaries. > But even though you seem to think it?s incredible, they would both have the same redness qualia, even though one had glycine and the other glutamate. It wouldn?t be the chemicals representing colours though, it would be the chemicals being a cog in the machine generating colours. You would just be replacing a brass cog with a steel cog, as it were. And it remains a fact, that those two engineer systems are represent red > things with physically different or qualitatively different things, before > those dictionaries. All the functionality you are talking about, has > nothing to do with what physical qualities are representing red and what > they are physically like. You are talking about everything after the > substrate enabling dictionary, I am talking about the actual physical > qualities, that are different, that require different dictionaries to > perform the same function. For one, glutamate is red, for the other > glycine is red. Sure, in both of these cases, they have knowledge of the > same red. Why are you talking about that? We are talking about the > quality of the stuff, before the different dictionaries, and the fact that > they are, qualitatively, different. > They wouldn?t just have knowledge of the same red, they would have the same redness qualia, that?s the point. On Sat, Sep 11, 2021 at 10:48 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Sun, 12 Sep 2021 at 14:05, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi Stathis, >>> On Sat, Sep 11, 2021 at 9:50 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> But the hard problem is not solved by saying "glutamate has a redness >>>> quality", since one can always ask WHY glutamate has a redness quality >>>> rather than a greenness quality, or no quality at all. >>>> >>> >>> OK, you've got me there. But let me ask you this, do rocket scientists >>> ask why force equals mass times acceleration? No, they just use that never >>> failing knowledge to dance in the heavens with their rockets. >>> The same is true with redness. Engineers don't need to know why >>> glutamate and only glutamate has a redness quality. They just need to know >>> if they want to engineer a being that can know what redness is like, they >>> can always use only glutamate. >>> >>> >>>> Intrinsic qualities, like redness and greenness, are simply physical >>>>> qualities of something in our brain. That is just elementary school all >>>>> day every day demonstrable physical reality, not magic. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Well, then you are a functionalist! Praise be! The functionalist >>>> position is just the above: that IF we replaced part of a person's brain >>>> and they said they were experiencing exactly the same qualia (and whatever >>>> other test you want to throw at them), then they would be experiencing >>>> exactly the same qualia. There is no assumption that this is possible, just >>>> that IF it were possible, the only reasonable conclusion would be that the >>>> qualia have in fact been reproduced. >>>> >>> >>> Again, I admit that if someone produces a redness experience from a >>> function, my falsifiable claims will be falsified. But you've got to give >>> me an idea of what function it is which has any possibility of passing the >>> laugh test for having redness quality. It certainly isn't a square root >>> function, or any other 'function' that I can Emagine. Why do you never >>> provide an example function that has a redness quality? The way I'm >>> providing a falsifiable example of glutamate having a redness quality. >>> Because even the idea of any and all functions having a redness quality >>> would be completely absurd, not passing the laugh test. >>> >> >> The function is that the person says ?I see red, it looks exactly the >> same to me?, that he identifies red things correctly, that if he is a >> painter his paintings are just as good as before and make just as good a >> use of colour as before, and everything else pertaining to red. >> >>> -- >> Stathis Papaioannou >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 06:39:42 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 23:39:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] patent fight: was: RE: The Matrix: Resurrections trailer In-Reply-To: <009a01d7a75c$7bfb3710$73f1a530$@rainier66.com> References: <009a01d7a75c$7bfb3710$73f1a530$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 11, 2021 at 3:32 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Idea: there is sufficient room in that short driveway to build a > turntable. We know at car shows there are such things, but that isn?t > really what I have in mind, for that would be expensive and would be too > easy anyway. A caveman could hire people to install that. But I thought > of a way to build a homebrew turntable nearly flush with the ground using > stuff ordinary proles could find easily: a truck wheel hub assembly. The > conic bearings on those rigs would easily bear the load both in thrust and > torque that an ordinary passenger car would deliver to it. The whole > assembly is already weather sealed, and already has a grease zerk for easy > periodic maintenance. Cool! > > > > That whole notion would require sinking a hole about 20 cm down and about > 50 cm across, the hub assembly could go down there, welded to a base plate, > then the turntable could be made of channel iron (C-section) beams in an H > configuration. I know how to do all the necessary sizing calculations. A > coupla fellers with a welder could build something like that for a coupla > thousand bucks methinks. That?s play money for anyone who lives in Palo > Alto. > > > > I digress however, for that has little or nothing to do with patents. But > Max?s patent fight comment brings up another kinda related idea: we could > have fist fights where the pugilists are dressed up as cavemen. Sounds > like fun, however I digress even further into the abysss of absurdity. > > > > I have half a mind to sketch up the idea and mail it, addressed to: Feller > who lives at 1079 Embarcadero, Palo Alto CA. > > > > Adrian, isn?t Palo Alto in your neighborhood? You and I could start a > side biz making low-cost turntables for proles living on Embarcadero Road. > You could use the earnings from that to support your rocket science habit. > I have a welder. > It would have to be powered (turning it by hand with a car parked on it would take way too much effort) . You would need clearance around the turntable in case the car is parked off-center enough to hang over the edge...and it would need to lock if a car is only halfway on it (and it would need to tell the difference between 2 wheels of a car and 2 wheels of a motorcycle), if you didn't want a large ongoing insurance premium. It's construction, with all that licensing and paperwork. Most importantly, while there are some houses that could benefit from this, their quantity is limited - likely way insufficient to warrant product development. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 09:30:36 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 10:30:36 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Google AI low-resolution photo enhancemen In-Reply-To: References: <7bc2952c-89bf-dd52-d4b6-9d84b3bbed26@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Sept 2021 at 21:51, Dave Sill via extropy-chat wrote: > > Exactly. To go from low-res to high-res without additional information requires making up new data. The Google photo enhancement AI is good at making up data that results in believable portraits--and it only does portraits at this point. > > None of the stories about this enhancement have compared the results of enhancing an image with the actual high-res version of the portrait. They all published the same Google-supplied images which were no doubt cherry-picked to make the software look good. > > Again, this technology will be fine for upscaling images for non law-enforcement purposes, but it in no way recovers data lost due to low resolution. > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ Another article from a photography website is also enthusiastic and gives a bit more information about the processing involved. You are obviously correct in saying that to start with a low-res photo and create a high-res photo involves adding information that is not present in the original. Nobody is disputing that. What Google is claiming is that training their AI software on similar photos means that they can create a high-res photo that is photo-realistic and very likely to be a correct image. Again obviously, the more information that is present in the original low-res image then the more likely it is that the high-res result will be correct. For example, a small birthmark or spot that is not shown in the low-res image will not magically appear in the high-res image. One interesting use might be enhancing old family photos. BillK From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 01:35:16 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 18:35:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Anders Sandberg - Aliens, Bayesians and Blurry Footage of UFOs In-Reply-To: <4b313cc7-fcc1-f976-cfa5-ca4500ef7d67@pobox.com> References: <4b313cc7-fcc1-f976-cfa5-ca4500ef7d67@pobox.com> Message-ID: Brent Allsop wrote: "Yea, and when the speck of dirt, falls off, the UFO disappears." These wily aliens are obviously microscopic in nature, and realize that their dirt speck sized ship will never arouse discriminating human suspicion! Lol John ; ) On Mon, Sep 6, 2021 at 11:41 AM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2021-9-05 20:43, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > speck of dirt on the camera > > I for one welcome our new dirt overlords. > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 16:00:26 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 11:00:26 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Running up against energy limits In-Reply-To: References: <002901d7a70b$ce570fd0$6b052f70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I loved Spike's idea of how America should have trained all able bodied adults there to be part of a well-armed citizen's militia. The Taliban would be contending with their worst nightmare right now! john The trouble with this idea is that Afghanistan is like Vietnam in the 60s - the Taliban has all sorts of friends and relatives outside of it, just like South Vietnam had Northern Vietnam sympathizers all over the place. So you would have, in effect, two militias: one with and one against the Taliban. bill w John On Sun, Sep 12, 2021 at 12:56 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Spike wrote: > "The Chinese are already there John. The surviving Afghanis will not like > what comes next." > > This will actually be a big test for the CCP. Will they cooperate with the > Taliban, for a mutually productive economic relationship? Or will they give > in to temptation, as did Britain, Russia, and America, and invade/occupy > Afghanistan? I could actually envision Xi Jinping ordering an invasion as a > means to toughen up China's military and give them combat experience. But I > could see the parents of his nation seriously acting up when the bodies > start getting shipped home... > > Billw wrote: > "In all the long time we were in Afghanistan did we mine any minerals?" > > As far as I know, we did not. > > SR Ballard wrote: > "John, I thought countries had a right to self-determination." > > They do. But is the Taliban the rightful leadership of Afghanistan? Lol > Well, it could be said might makes right, at least in that part of the > world. I loved Spike's idea of how America should have trained all able > bodied adults there to be part of a well-armed citizen's militia. The > Taliban would be contending with their worst nightmare right now! > > John > > > > On Sat, Sep 11, 2021 at 5:55 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, 11 Sep 2021 at 21:48, John Grigg via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> ?, and now China is about to move in to "help" the Taliban and also, of >> course, mine those rare minerals? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The Chinese are already there John. The surviving Afghanis will not like >> what comes next. >> >> >> >> spike >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Sep 12 17:04:29 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 10:04:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Running up against energy limits In-Reply-To: References: <002901d7a70b$ce570fd0$6b052f70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004001d7a7f8$407b2820$c1717860$@rainier66.com> ?.> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Running up against energy limits >>?I loved Spike's idea of how America should have trained all able bodied adults there to be part of a well-armed citizen's militia. The Taliban would be contending with their worst nightmare right now! John John you are too kind sir, but it wasn?t my idea. A group of fellers came up with the notion and signed it into US law in 1791. >?.The trouble with this idea is that Afghanistan is like Vietnam in the 60s - the Taliban has all sorts of friends and relatives outside of it, just like South Vietnam had Northern Vietnam sympathizers all over the place. So you would have, in effect, two militias: one with and one against the Taliban. bill w There is that. But on the other hand? if one is currently in Kabul and the Taliban is coming door to door hunting Americans and their allies, and you are one of them? do you want to be armed to the teeth? Or helpless as a lamb before the slaughter? I?ll taaaaake? guns for 500 please Alex. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 17:26:27 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 18:26:27 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Running up against energy limits In-Reply-To: <004001d7a7f8$407b2820$c1717860$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d7a70b$ce570fd0$6b052f70$@rainier66.com> <004001d7a7f8$407b2820$c1717860$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 12 Sept 2021 at 18:08, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > John you are too kind sir, but it wasn?t my idea. A group of fellers came up with the notion and signed it into US law in 1791. > > There is that. But on the other hand? if one is currently in Kabul and the Taliban is coming door to door hunting Americans and their allies, and you are one of them? do you want to be armed to the teeth? Or helpless as a lamb before the slaughter? > > I?ll taaaaake? guns for 500 please Alex. > > spike > _______________________________________________ If you are in Kabul and deciding to rebel against the Taliban, remember that they are now probably the best armed and equipped militia in the Middle East, thanks to the training and equipment provided by the USA. What? You mean you really thought the USA training Afghan soldiers meant that they wouldn't fight as Taliban soldiers? Many were already absconding and joining the Taliban while training was in progress. It was all a corrupt scam from the beginning, covered up from the US public. BillK From jasonresch at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 17:27:28 2021 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 12:27:28 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Qualia are not in the matrix (was Re: The Matrix: Resurrections trailer) In-Reply-To: References: <20210911102407.Horde.p5oHKMDkRkjWXhvWw2E-wSt@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 11, 2021 at 7:57 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > We do know that our redness and greenness, out of which our > consciousness is composed, is not in the matrix. Qualia are intrinsic > qualities of something in all those brains, in all those vats, in the > basement level physical reality. They are not in the matrix. > > We'll I guess that IS a falsifiable claim, right Stathis? The > functionalists predicting that redness and greenness can arise (magically?) > from anything "functioning" correctly. > But until that is demonstrated (redness magically arising from some > function, and we know which function! SQRT?), I'm staying with assuming my > qualia are intrinsic qualities of a basement level physical reality. > There are some things we can reasonably assume are universal or all-encompassing. For example, if we consider mathematics as the space of all possible structures, then the physical universe as we know it would be one possible structure within the set of all possible structures, and thus would be contained within mathematics. If our qualia are somehow derivative of a process or property taking place within our physical universe, then it would follow that the qualia of say "blueness" has a physical definition in terms of some physical process or property. And since the physical universe is itself a subset of possible mathematical structures, it further should follow that "blueness" has a mathematical definition as well. Turing machines are universal and all-encompassing in a limited and special way: they are universal in being able to define or replicate any finitely-describable process, including any finitely-describable manner of processing information. If qualia are the result of a finite process, rather than an unreplicable innate property, then it would follow that there is a Turing-machine definition of a process that instantiates the qualia of blueness. If there are no properties except those that exist as processes and relations to other processes, then it would suggest the irrelevance of any physical property. In effect, any physical property could then be replicated (for all intents and purposes) by replicating all the relations homomorphically. In other words, a perfect computational simulation of a physical system, would possess all the properties of the simulated physical system. So if there are no innate, irreplicable physical properties, it suggests that processes are all that are needed, which is one of the reasons people subscribe to functionalism. Functionalism is just the view that everything has a perfect mathematical description in terms of processes and relations between processes, and that properties are just high-level labels we put on relations between processes. So if reality is "processes" all the way down, there exists a process-level description and definition for any qualia. This is just how I see things. I hope I have done some justice in explaining the viewpoint of functionalists which might bridge the gap to other physicalists. I think functionalists just tend to use additional layers of abstraction when considering the ultimate nature of reality, like when Wheeler considered "it from bit" or anytime a physicist probes about the ultimate nature of "things." Maybe the relationships are all that exist. Maybe the world is *made* of > math. At first that sounded nuts, but when I thought about it I had to > wonder, what exactly is the other option? That the world is made of > ?things?? What the hell is a ?thing?? It was one of those concepts that > fold under the slightest interrogation. Look closely at any object and you > find it?s an amalgamation of particles. But look closely at the particles > and you find that they are irreducible representations of the Poincar? > symmetry group?whatever that meant. The point is, particles, at bottom, > look a lot like math.Amanda Gefter > in ?*Trespassing on > Einstein?s Lawn > *? > (2014) Jason -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 18:00:33 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 04:00:33 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Running up against energy limits In-Reply-To: References: <002901d7a70b$ce570fd0$6b052f70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 12 Sep 2021 at 15:55, John Grigg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Spike wrote: > "The Chinese are already there John. The surviving Afghanis will not like > what comes next." > > This will actually be a big test for the CCP. Will they cooperate with the > Taliban, for a mutually productive economic relationship? Or will they give > in to temptation, as did Britain, Russia, and America, and invade/occupy > Afghanistan? I could actually envision Xi Jinping ordering an invasion as a > means to toughen up China's military and give them combat experience. But I > could see the parents of his nation seriously acting up when the bodies > start getting shipped home... > China doesn?t have a history of invading other countries. Billw wrote: > "In all the long time we were in Afghanistan did we mine any minerals?" > > As far as I know, we did not. > > SR Ballard wrote: > "John, I thought countries had a right to self-determination." > > They do. But is the Taliban the rightful leadership of Afghanistan? Lol > Well, it could be said might makes right, at least in that part of the > world. I loved Spike's idea of how America should have trained all able > bodied adults there to be part of a well-armed citizen's militia. The > Taliban would be contending with their worst nightmare right now! > > John > > > > On Sat, Sep 11, 2021 at 5:55 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, 11 Sep 2021 at 21:48, John Grigg via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> ?, and now China is about to move in to "help" the Taliban and also, of >> course, mine those rare minerals? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The Chinese are already there John. The surviving Afghanis will not like >> what comes next. >> >> >> >> spike >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Sep 12 18:03:11 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 11:03:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Running up against energy limits In-Reply-To: References: <002901d7a70b$ce570fd0$6b052f70$@rainier66.com> <004001d7a7f8$407b2820$c1717860$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006d01d7a800$73589310$5a09b930$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Running up against energy limits >>... spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > ...? do you want to be armed to the teeth? Or helpless as a lamb before the slaughter? > >>... I?ll taaaaake? guns for 500 please Alex. > >> spike > _______________________________________________ >...If you are in Kabul and deciding to rebel against the Taliban, remember that they are now probably the best armed and equipped militia in the Middle East, thanks to the training and equipment provided by the USA. What? You mean you really thought the USA training Afghan soldiers meant that they wouldn't fight as Taliban soldiers? Many were already absconding and joining the Taliban while training was in progress. It was all a corrupt scam from the beginning, covered up from the US public. BillK _______________________________________________ BillK, that the US left behind all those munitions is unconscionable. I cannot fathom why they did that. Many lives will be lost because of it. Regarding the remaining Americans and allies stranded in Afghanistan, keep in mind there are plenty who have the attitude of Live Free or Die. Given the choice of iron fisted religious dictatorship or resistance, there are plenty of us who would take our chances. I am one of them. Most of us here would do poorly if a religious dictatorship were to be imposed upon us. We wouldn't do well with being told: Pray this way or die. But it isn't as hopeless as it might seem. Right after the bombing of Pearl Harbor, the Japanese temporarily had the upper hand. They debated whether to invade the US west coast. Admiral Yamamoto decided against it, doubting its success, even if the government ceded. He is said to have made the legendary comment "There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass." If he said that, he got it right. What he was describing is asymmetric warfare. An army must have some means of identification friend or foe. The resistance does not. They could identify an invading army, pick off the pious bastards from a safe distance, disappear into nowhere. Good chance the resistance fighters would eventually die. But oh they could extract some major damage on their way out. We have a popular saying over here in the colonies: Freedom ain't free. It is bought and paid for by the blood of freedom fighters. Had the people of Kabul been armed to the teeth and every man, woman and child trained to pick off targets at a distance, the Taliban would not have been eager to invade the place. spike From avant at sollegro.com Sun Sep 12 20:18:02 2021 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 13:18:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Homesteading away wildfires Message-ID: <20210912131802.Horde.HdhFlI-8FrTUFMz4MXf1H9y@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> As a former Californian and present Nevadan, I am getting sick of all the wildfires that are burning in California and sending smoke into Nevada. The unbelievable amounts of small particulate matter in the smoke is directly harming my health and that of everybody else in the region. Aside from mere health concerns, the wildfires are wasting the lives of huge numbers of trees who have spent centuries growing and fixing carbon only to have all that carbon released back into the atmosphere to further exacerbate the climate change that is largely responsible for the fires in the first place. Some other major contributing factors to this problem include the huge amount of dry underbrush and dead trees killed by the pine-borer beetle. In short, the wildfire problem is preventable by such techniques as clearing the dead wood and dry brush from the area and clearing overgrown areas. Since almost all of the wildfires happen on government-owned land, then it should be government's responsibility to keep their land well-maintained and fire-resistant. The knowledge and methods are already known. You could even coddle the spotted-owls, if you wanted. http://www.nwfirescience.org/sites/default/files/publications/A%20Land%20Managers%20Guide%20for%20Creating%20Fire-resistant%20Forests%20.pdf Unfortunately it costs something like $3500 per acre to make forests fire-resistant. So the federal government can't afford fire-scaping for a sufficient area to prevent the state from catching fire every year like clockwork and millions of acres to burn. I am not sure what the state government of California is doing or trying to do about the problem, but it certainly seems the state ought to take some initiative in the face of an inactive federal government. Unbelievably despite having all these millions of acres of public land that the governments involved are declining to take responsibility for, California nonetheless has a pretty big homeless problem. I mean if people are defecating on sidewalks, maybe they are not hygienically cut out for city life. So perhaps this is a rare example where two of a state's problems can solve one another. What I propose is that the government offer deed of property to any citizen who firescapes and settles some claimed area of designated wilderness land in accordance to environmental standards with the payment of the first year of property taxes for that land. So now, in exchange for doing some manual labor digging and hauling wood formerly homeless people can now homestead and own several acres of wilderness that they can then roam at will, develop as they see fit, or live off the land, so long as they preserve the endangered species there upon. Thoughts? Stuart LaForge From stathisp at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 20:57:56 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 06:57:56 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Running up against energy limits In-Reply-To: <006d01d7a800$73589310$5a09b930$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d7a70b$ce570fd0$6b052f70$@rainier66.com> <004001d7a7f8$407b2820$c1717860$@rainier66.com> <006d01d7a800$73589310$5a09b930$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Sep 2021 at 04:10, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] Running up against energy limits > > >>... spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > ...? do you want to be armed to the teeth? Or helpless as a lamb before > the slaughter? > > > >>... I?ll taaaaake? guns for 500 please Alex. > > > >> spike > > _______________________________________________ > > > >...If you are in Kabul and deciding to rebel against the Taliban, > remember that they are now probably the best armed and equipped militia in > the Middle East, thanks to the training and equipment provided by the USA. > What? You mean you really thought the USA training Afghan soldiers meant > that they wouldn't fight as Taliban soldiers? Many were already absconding > and joining the Taliban while training was in progress. It was all a > corrupt scam from the beginning, covered up from the US public. > > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > > > BillK, that the US left behind all those munitions is unconscionable. I > cannot fathom why they did that. Many lives will be lost because of it. > > Regarding the remaining Americans and allies stranded in Afghanistan, keep > in mind there are plenty who have the attitude of Live Free or Die. Given > the choice of iron fisted religious dictatorship or resistance, there are > plenty of us who would take our chances. I am one of them. Most of us > here would do poorly if a religious dictatorship were to be imposed upon > us. We wouldn't do well with being told: Pray this way or die. > > But it isn't as hopeless as it might seem. Right after the bombing of > Pearl Harbor, the Japanese temporarily had the upper hand. They debated > whether to invade the US west coast. Admiral Yamamoto decided against it, > doubting its success, even if the government ceded. He is said to have > made the legendary comment "There would be a rifle behind every blade of > grass." > > If he said that, he got it right. > > What he was describing is asymmetric warfare. An army must have some > means of identification friend or foe. The resistance does not. They > could identify an invading army, pick off the pious bastards from a safe > distance, disappear into nowhere. > > Good chance the resistance fighters would eventually die. But oh they > could extract some major damage on their way out. We have a popular saying > over here in the colonies: Freedom ain't free. It is bought and paid for > by the blood of freedom fighters. > > Had the people of Kabul been armed to the teeth and every man, woman and > child trained to pick off targets at a distance, the Taliban would not have > been eager to invade the place. But the citizens of Afghanistan have easier access to military weapons than people probably do anywhere else on Earth, and fir many years. https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2017/01/15/disneyland-for-gun-lovers-inside-the-notorious-darra-adam-khel-arms-market.html -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 01:11:17 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 18:11:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Homesteading away wildfires In-Reply-To: <20210912131802.Horde.HdhFlI-8FrTUFMz4MXf1H9y@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20210912131802.Horde.HdhFlI-8FrTUFMz4MXf1H9y@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 12, 2021 at 1:20 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Unbelievably despite having all these millions of acres of public land > that the governments involved are declining to take responsibility > for, California nonetheless has a pretty big homeless problem. I mean > if people are defecating on sidewalks, maybe they are not hygienically > cut out for city life. So perhaps this is a rare example where two of > a state's problems can solve one another. > > What I propose is that the government offer deed of property to any > citizen who firescapes and settles some claimed area of designated > wilderness land in accordance to environmental standards with the > payment of the first year of property taxes for that land. > > So now, in exchange for doing some manual labor digging and hauling > wood formerly homeless people can now homestead and own several acres > of wilderness that they can then roam at will, develop as they see > fit, or live off the land, so long as they preserve the endangered > species there upon. > > Thoughts? > Most of those who prove incompatible with city life, would also prove incompatible with rural life. Their defect is not city life, but a responsible life at all. They wander wherever they please (and can), glean sustenance as best they can, spend money on booze (they freely lie, claiming they intend to spend it on food, and do not understand why anyone - even those who see them spend it on booze - should not believe them), and spare no thought for either other people or their own long term situation. They see no reason to clean up after themselves already, so they would see no reason to clean up their area if planted out in the wilds. Most of these people are incapable of learning, having lost or deliberately shunned this critical piece of their humanity. A mental asylum is the only suitable housing for these people, but there is not enough space, and difficulty getting them there. If moved out to the wilds, they would be incapable of learning to live out there: they would either starve, or abandon their property and return to areas with enough people for them to beg from. This is not to say "most homeless". A fair bit - likely the majority - of homeless are compatible with city life, and would be quite capable of maintaining an apartment were they to be furnished with one. (Indeed, they are sufficiently adapted to city life that what you propose would be a hardship worse than they already deal with, though some might take it up.) But you're talking here about those homeless who are not. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 16:37:09 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 09:37:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] New Study Finds a Single Neuron Is a Surprisingly Complex Little Computer Message-ID: "In a fascinating paper published recently in the journal *Neuron*, a team of researchers from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem tried to get us a little closer to an answer. While they expected the results would show biological neurons are more complex?they were surprised at just how much more complex they actually are. In the study, the team found it took a five- to eight-layer neural network, or nearly 1,000 artificial neurons, to mimic the behavior of a single biological neuron from the brain?s cortex. Though the researchers caution the results are an *upper* bound for complexity?as opposed to an exact measurement of it?they also believe their findings might help scientists further zero in on what exactly makes biological neurons so complex. And that knowledge, perhaps, can help engineers design even more capable neural networks and AI. ?[The result] forms a bridge from biological neurons to artificial neurons,? Andreas Tolias, a computational neuroscientist at Baylor College of Medicine, told *Quanta* last week." https://singularityhub.com/2021/09/12/new-study-finds-a-single-neuron-is-a-surprisingly-complex-little-computer/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From write2mark1 at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 02:16:56 2021 From: write2mark1 at gmail.com (write2mark1 at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 19:16:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] New Study Finds a Single Neuron Is a Surprisingly Complex Little Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Why Fintech Companies Use Haskell > > Fintech is one of the biggest > and fastest-growing IT markets today. > > It is an emerging industry that uses technology to compete with > traditional financial methods in the delivery of financial services. Mobile > banking, investing services, and cryptocurrency are all solutions that make > financial services more accessible to the general public. > > One significant trend that we have witnessed in fintech is the use of > functional programming languages. In this blog post, we will delve deeper > into the state of fintech right now, and how exactly functional programming > can improve modern fintech products. In the end, we will list some > companies that use FP in their trading, banking, or fintech infrastructures. > > Benefits of functional programming languages > [image: FP benefits] > > Banks, trading firms, and fintech projects use functional programming > languages like Haskell because of the properties which imperative > programming does not provide. Most of the big companies mention three main > reasons: > > 1. Strong typing helps prevent errors in the code that could lead to > problems somewhere down the path. For example, Barclays lists strong typing > as one of the reasons for choosing Haskell for their derivative algorithms. > 2. The code is more readable and maintainable, and as a result, it is > easier to find bugs and reduce the risk of exploits. > 3. Functional programming handles concurrency better, so these > languages excel at complex tasks that involve parallel actions. > > Let?s look at the most popular areas in fintech right now and how > functional programming can help in their specific use cases. > > State of fintech > [image: State of fintech] > > Term ?fintech? includes a massive amount of companies that work on a range > of technologies and projects with different approaches. > > Today, thousands of startups are working on unique technologies, some of > which include KYC/ID with AI and telemetry, payment and lending protocols, > and others. The field is a puzzle that consists of a huge amount of details. > > Furthermore, all these small puzzle pieces are trying to be interoperable > with each other in real-time. To achieve that speed of service, > technologies that provide faster and more concurrent services need to be > employed. Some of the functional programming technologies (for example, > ones that support actor-like models) are well-suited for making this > diverse ecosystem more effective. > > To give an overarching view, here are some of the global trends that we > see in the fintech market and FP technologies that can help them in their > rise. > > AI, Big Data, IoT > > The technologies mentioned above are the most demanded. They are used for > the development and implementation of chatbots, virtual consultants and > virtual advisories, voice recognition, process automation, predictive > analysis (including credit scoring and fraud monitoring). The goal of using > those technologies is personalization, transaction security, an increase in > time management efficiency, and client behavior analysis. > > FP can bring success to these fields. Scala is already widely used in big > data for its superior concurrency and Apache Spark > , while Nerves > , an Elixir framework, looks very > promising for > IoT. > > Transaction processing and infrastructure > > The number of card transactions grows by a CAGR of 13.6% annually, > according to the Global Payments 2019 report > . > One reason for that is the integration of biometric analysis and > contactless payments. > > Functional programming languages allow for the building of stable > infrastructures that are more reliable, fault-tolerant, and have fewer > errors. In particular, Elixir is great for situations where you need to > handle a lot of small interactions from a multitude of users. > > Credit and insurance technologies > > Today, credits and insurance are issued not only by traditional banks but > by smaller private companies and startups. There are tons of projects that > provide P2P lending, and technologies in this field are developing very > fast. > > If you are a startup in the field of credit or insurance, you need to move > fast. A well-built FP team will be able to iterate quickly and scale your > product better, since the paradigm allows for better productivity and > faster large-scale changes. > > Read our interview > with a startup in the field of reinsurance, Riskbook, to learn more > about the benefits of Haskell for rapidly changing fields. > > Blockchain and crypto?urrencies > > Businesses use blockchain technology as a fast and safe way of dealing, > monitoring funds, making quick international payments, storing and sharing > reports. A lot of banks unite under Ripple or HyperLedger partnership to > exchange information between them. Blockchain can be used to store > biometric data as well. > > Functional programming (especially Haskell) is great for handling > blockchains due to immutability, type safety, and the ability to manage > distributed computation well. Haskell also enables one to build excellent > domain-specific languages, such as smart contract languages > > . > > Companies that use functional programming > > Fintech > > Klarna > [image: Klarna] > > The European payments startup Klarna uses a wide > variety of functional programming languages like Scala, Erlang, Clojure, > and Haskell. The core of their services is in Erlang. > > Digital Asset > > Digital Asset is a fintech company that helps companies design and run the > next generation of business applications, mainly with the help of DAML > , a smart contract language written in Scala. They > have a multitude of languages on their GitHub, including Haskell and Scala. > > You can read our interview with them on our blog > . > > Adjoint > [image: Adjoint] > > Adjoint digitises cash and settlement processes > for multinational corporates. Right now, their main product is Adjoint > Treasury, a real-time payments and settlement platform for corporate > treasuries. > > Banking & trading > > Barclays > > Barclays has an embedded domain-specific > functional language (FPF) written in Haskell to specify exotic equity > derivatives. We have covered it in more detail in our Haskell stories of > success . > > Standard Chartered Bank > [image: Standard Chartered] > > Standard Chartered uses their own strict dialect of > Haskell called Mu, and has an insanely large codebase, featuring around > half a million lines of Haskell code and 4.5 million lines of Mu code. > > Tinkoff Bank > > Tinkoff uses Haskell for the backend of > Tinkoff Travel Agency and Scala for the backend of Tinkoff Bank. > > Jane Street > [image: Jane Street] > > Jane Street uses OCaml for almost all the backend, from low-latency > trading and market risk systems to tools for managing and monitoring > infrastructure, workflow tools, and data analytics. > > To learn more about the reasons for this choice, you can watch a detailed > talk from their tech side: Why OCaml > . > > Morgan Stanley > > Morgan Stanley uses Scala and is home to massive large-scale Scala > projects. For more information on Scala at Morgan Stanley, you can check this > short video . > > And many more > > In addition, many other financial companies have used or use Haskell or > other functional programming languages: > > - JP Morgan > - BNB Paribas > - Merrill Lynch Bank of America > - Deutsche Bank > - ABN AMRO > - Credit Suisse Global > - Allston Trading > > With a lot of heavyweight banks and startups doing functional programming, > it seems to be a trend that won?t go away. Furthermore, fintech is becoming > more complex and distributed every minute, with banks realizing that in the > face of the COVID crisis, they are not digital enough. Functional > programming, it seems, has the tools to solve the problems associated with > that. Whether you are a fintech startup or a bank, perhaps it is time to > start thinking about making a switch to a more future-proof technology. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 02:21:25 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 19:21:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Running up against energy limits In-Reply-To: <004001d7a7f8$407b2820$c1717860$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d7a70b$ce570fd0$6b052f70$@rainier66.com> <004001d7a7f8$407b2820$c1717860$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 12, 2021 at 10:07 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > There is that. But on the other hand? if one is currently in Kabul and > the Taliban is coming door to door hunting Americans and their allies, and > you are one of them? do you want to be armed to the teeth? Or helpless as > a lamb before the slaughter? > > > > I?ll taaaaake? guns for 500 please Alex. > I'll take getting out alive - with disguises, bribes, whatever it takes. Shooting at the Taliban only makes me a priority target. If I have the guns, sell them. If I have a companion who is determined to go Rambo on them, get him going in a direction that will make for a convenient distraction: he has already chosen to die, but perhaps his death can buy my life. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Sep 13 02:37:40 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 19:37:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Running up against energy limits In-Reply-To: References: <002901d7a70b$ce570fd0$6b052f70$@rainier66.com> <004001d7a7f8$407b2820$c1717860$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006601d7a848$52ed8b10$f8c8a130$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Running up against energy limits On Sun, Sep 12, 2021 at 10:07 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >?? do you want to be armed to the teeth? Or helpless as a lamb before the slaughter? >?I?ll taaaaake? guns for 500 please Alex. >?I'll take getting out alive - with disguises, bribes, whatever it takes. Shooting at the Taliban only makes me a priority target. If I have the guns, sell them. If I have a companion who is determined to go Rambo on them, get him going in a direction that will make for a convenient distraction: he has already chosen to die, but perhaps his death can buy my life. Adrian Adrian, fortunately for you, in the USA, we have a militia who believe that perhaps our death will buy yours. My solution is more direct: make sure the militia is sufficiently armed and trained that the Taliban?s death will buy both yours and our militia men. At some point the safest course is to stand and fight. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 03:28:41 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 20:28:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Running up against energy limits In-Reply-To: <006601d7a848$52ed8b10$f8c8a130$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d7a70b$ce570fd0$6b052f70$@rainier66.com> <004001d7a7f8$407b2820$c1717860$@rainier66.com> <006601d7a848$52ed8b10$f8c8a130$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 12, 2021 at 7:40 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > My solution is more direct: make sure the militia is sufficiently armed > and trained that the Taliban?s death will buy both yours and our militia > men. > > > > At some point the safest course is to stand and fight. > That point does not exist in Afghanistan, where any militia is likely to be (or suddenly become, in the perceived interests of self-preservation) more Taliban fighters. Over there, any local carrying a gun is like a grenade: not something to be near when the explosions happen. We gave them weapons. We gave them training. We forgot to teach them loyalty, patriotism, or any of the other things we take for granted in our own armed forces. We also let them not be paid by their masters (who kept funneling the money we gave them elsewhere, such as by reporting soldiers that did not exist and asking for money for them, "paying" the non-existent soldiers by disappearing money into the masters' bank accounts, then saying there was no money to pay the rest). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Mon Sep 13 03:37:12 2021 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 20:37:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Homesteading away wildfires In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20210912203712.Horde.p9R_W-SYYOYsIJpw0ZqESMI@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Adrian Tymes: > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [ExI] Homesteading away wildfires > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > On Sun, Sep 12, 2021 at 1:20 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> What I propose is that the government offer deed of property to any >> citizen who firescapes and settles some claimed area of designated >> wilderness land in accordance to environmental standards with the >> payment of the first year of property taxes for that land. >> >> So now, in exchange for doing some manual labor digging and hauling >> wood formerly homeless people can now homestead and own several acres >> of wilderness that they can then roam at will, develop as they see >> fit, or live off the land, so long as they preserve the endangered >> species there upon. >> >> Thoughts? >> > > Most of those who prove incompatible with city life, would also prove > incompatible with rural life. Their defect is not city life, but a > responsible life at all. They wander wherever they please (and can), glean > sustenance as best they can, spend money on booze (they freely lie, > claiming they intend to spend it on food, and do not understand why anyone > - even those who see them spend it on booze - should not believe them), and > spare no thought for either other people or their own long term situation. > They see no reason to clean up after themselves already, so they would see > no reason to clean up their area if planted out in the wilds. > > Most of these people are incapable of learning, having lost or deliberately > shunned this critical piece of their humanity. A mental asylum is the only > suitable housing for these people, but there is not enough space, and > difficulty getting them there. If moved out to the wilds, they would be > incapable of learning to live out there: they would either starve, or > abandon their property and return to areas with enough people for them to > beg from. Then California does not have a homelessness problem, California has an insanity problem. > This is not to say "most homeless". A fair bit - likely the majority - of > homeless are compatible with city life, and would be quite capable of > maintaining an apartment were they to be furnished with one. (Indeed, they > are sufficiently adapted to city life that what you propose would be a > hardship worse than they already deal with, though some might take it up.) > But you're talking here about those homeless who are not. I know I brought up the homeless, but the offer should hold for any U.S. citizens who are not already homeowners so, for example, renters would qualify. The wildfires are the primary issue for me at any rate. Giving citizens ownership, in exchange for stewardship, of government lands in the face of neglect (and possibly legal negligence) by the government. Also Native Americans should get preferential status for homesteading due to their ancestral connection to the land. Stuart LaForge From atymes at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 04:05:24 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 21:05:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Homesteading away wildfires In-Reply-To: <20210912203712.Horde.p9R_W-SYYOYsIJpw0ZqESMI@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20210912203712.Horde.p9R_W-SYYOYsIJpw0ZqESMI@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 12, 2021 at 8:39 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Then California does not have a homelessness problem, California has > an insanity problem. > As does much of the urban and suburban US. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 06:33:51 2021 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 08:33:51 +0200 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Fwd: Bitcoin el salvador? In-Reply-To: References: <20210905105046.1.37a74a61ce69a55e62d414ba6ef82ef7@mg1.substack.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 12, 2021 at 9:10 PM John Clark wrote: > > When I consider how inefficient Bitcoin is and the colossal amount of energy that it wastes every time it processes even the simplest financial transaction it makes me doubt the wisdom of the entire Bitcoin enterprise. > > John K Clark But Bitcoin is a prototype of things to come. New cryptocurrency technologies can and will eliminate the admittedly too large energy consumption of Bitcoin mining. For example take a look at the Chia technology of Bram Cohen (the BitTorrent guy). https://www.chia.net/ > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv3HNnCT5c4JJEcL59RrejMv%2BMJJPsc3PWa1Mp9eeaUw4Q%40mail.gmail.com. From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 14:48:40 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 09:48:40 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Running up against energy limits In-Reply-To: <006601d7a848$52ed8b10$f8c8a130$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d7a70b$ce570fd0$6b052f70$@rainier66.com> <004001d7a7f8$407b2820$c1717860$@rainier66.com> <006601d7a848$52ed8b10$f8c8a130$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: At some point the safest course is to stand and fight. spike In all the many times you have expressed this sentiment, Spike, you have never mentioned the National Guard. Why is that? bill w spike On Sun, Sep 12, 2021 at 9:40 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Running up against energy limits > > > > On Sun, Sep 12, 2021 at 10:07 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >?? do you want to be armed to the teeth? Or helpless as a lamb before > the slaughter? > > > > >?I?ll taaaaake? guns for 500 please Alex. > > > > >?I'll take getting out alive - with disguises, bribes, whatever it > takes. Shooting at the Taliban only makes me a priority target. If I have > the guns, sell them. If I have a companion who is determined to go Rambo > on them, get him going in a direction that will make for a convenient > distraction: he has already chosen to die, but perhaps his death can buy my > life. Adrian > > > > > > Adrian, fortunately for you, in the USA, we have a militia who believe > that perhaps our death will buy yours. > > > > My solution is more direct: make sure the militia is sufficiently armed > and trained that the Taliban?s death will buy both yours and our militia > men. > > > > At some point the safest course is to stand and fight. > > > > spike > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Sep 13 14:59:08 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 07:59:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Running up against energy limits In-Reply-To: References: <002901d7a70b$ce570fd0$6b052f70$@rainier66.com> <004001d7a7f8$407b2820$c1717860$@rainier66.com> <006601d7a848$52ed8b10$f8c8a130$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003101d7a8af$e7e02a90$b7a07fb0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Running up against energy limits >>?At some point the safest course is to stand and fight. spike >?In all the many times you have expressed this sentiment, Spike, you have never mentioned the National Guard. Why is that? bill w There aren?t enough of them. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 15:21:41 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 11:21:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Google AI low-resolution photo enhancemen In-Reply-To: References: <7bc2952c-89bf-dd52-d4b6-9d84b3bbed26@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 12, 2021 at 5:34 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > You are obviously correct in saying that to start with a low-res photo > and create a high-res photo involves adding information that is not > present in the original. Nobody is disputing that. They are if they think that photos can be enhanced to identify perps. > What Google is > claiming is that training their AI software on similar photos means > that they can create a high-res photo that is photo-realistic Yes, precisely, modulo some goofy errors and distortions. > and very > likely to be a correct image. > "A correct image"? What the heck does that mean? > One interesting use might be enhancing old family photos. > Especially if someone remembers the subject well enough to confirm that the enhancement looks like the subject. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 15:28:39 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 08:28:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Google AI low-resolution photo enhancemen In-Reply-To: References: <7bc2952c-89bf-dd52-d4b6-9d84b3bbed26@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 8:24 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, Sep 12, 2021 at 5:34 AM BillK via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> You are obviously correct in saying that to start with a low-res photo >> and create a high-res photo involves adding information that is not >> present in the original. Nobody is disputing that. > > > They are if they think that photos can be enhanced to identify perps. > "Our algorithm identified the perp (when we asked it to determine if this image was more likely to be the person we already wanted to convict, or a lamp post)." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 15:39:09 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 11:39:09 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Google AI low-resolution photo enhancemen In-Reply-To: References: <7bc2952c-89bf-dd52-d4b6-9d84b3bbed26@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 11:33 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 8:24 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Sun, Sep 12, 2021 at 5:34 AM BillK via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> You are obviously correct in saying that to start with a low-res photo >>> and create a high-res photo involves adding information that is not >>> present in the original. Nobody is disputing that. >> >> >> They are if they think that photos can be enhanced to identify perps. >> > > "Our algorithm identified the perp (when we asked it to determine if this > image was more likely to be the person we already wanted to convict, or a > lamp post)." > Yep. Or take the fuzzy perp shot, let an AI identify possible matches from a photo DB like driver's license pics, and train an AI to enhance the fuzzy photo to look as much like the desired suspect as possible. Use that to get a judge to sign off on a search warrant. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Sep 13 15:43:26 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 08:43:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Google AI low-resolution photo enhancemen In-Reply-To: References: <7bc2952c-89bf-dd52-d4b6-9d84b3bbed26@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <000901d7a8b6$182b8ae0$4882a0a0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Google AI low-resolution photo enhancemen On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 8:24 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat > wrote: On Sun, Sep 12, 2021 at 5:34 AM BillK via extropy-chat > wrote: You are obviously correct in saying that to start with a low-res photo and create a high-res photo involves adding information that is not present in the original. Nobody is disputing that. They are if they think that photos can be enhanced to identify perps. "Our algorithm identified the perp (when we asked it to determine if this image was more likely to be the person we already wanted to convict, or a lamp post)." spike Missing in this discussion is the statistical nature of this algorithm. A grainy image cannot identify a perp. A thousand grainy imagines can. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 15:46:48 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 10:46:48 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Running up against energy limits In-Reply-To: <003101d7a8af$e7e02a90$b7a07fb0$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d7a70b$ce570fd0$6b052f70$@rainier66.com> <004001d7a7f8$407b2820$c1717860$@rainier66.com> <006601d7a848$52ed8b10$f8c8a130$@rainier66.com> <003101d7a8af$e7e02a90$b7a07fb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Well then, let's urge our government to adopt the Swiss model. I'll bet that's your all-time favorite government attitude towards guns. bill w On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 10:02 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Running up against energy limits > > > > >>?At some point the safest course is to stand and fight. spike > > > > >?In all the many times you have expressed this sentiment, Spike, you > have never mentioned the National Guard. Why is that? bill w > > > > There aren?t enough of them. > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Sep 13 16:01:13 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 09:01:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Google AI low-resolution photo enhancemen In-Reply-To: References: <7bc2952c-89bf-dd52-d4b6-9d84b3bbed26@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <002701d7a8b8$93d90080$bb8b0180$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dave Sill via extropy-chat "Our algorithm identified the perp (when we asked it to determine if this image was more likely to be the person we already wanted to convict, or a lamp post)." >?Yep. Or take the fuzzy perp shot, let an AI identify possible matches from a photo DB like driver's license pics, and train an AI to enhance the fuzzy photo to look as much like the desired suspect as possible. Use that to get a judge to sign off on a search warrant. -Dave Hi Dave, While seeing the obvious dangers with misuse of the technology, consider what it can do. The software wouldn?t look thru the database of drivers licenses, for (in the USA) that would constitute illegal search and seizure, forbidden under amendment 4. But looking thru mugshots would be fair game. When one is convicted, some civil rights are forfeited forever. As with many of these kinds of technologies, they cannot be used as evidence in court, but can be used to lead the constabulary to the right group of former felons and parolees to start their inquiries. If it is any help, consider what Britain is wrestling with currently. They have video cameras all over the place, way more than here in the rebellious colonies. This is perfectly legal in Englad, for outside their own castle is public domain, so the public safety officers can (and do) watch all that using video and recordings. Recently a BLM leader Sasha Johnson, was at a BLM party in the London area. They were actively advocating abolition of the police force. Four guys came in there and shot her in the head. No one knows what happened to her after that, but the video allowed the constables to apprehend the four. To the surprise of no one, they pled innocent. There were approximately 300 present at the rally to abolish the police. None will testify. Traditionally in Jolly Olde, an eyewitness testimony is required to convict. The video is only used to nab the perps, which it did. 300 potential witnesses at the party, not one willing to testify, perps plead innocent. Case dismissed for lack of evidence? We shall see. Video alone traditionally cannot be used to convict in Britain, and that is one country which takes tradition very seriously. BillK is invited to comment, for he is one of the lads from England. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 07:10:09 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 00:10:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Dozens of ET-Seeking Telescopes in the Path of California Wildfires Message-ID: "Northern California's Dixie Fire, which started in July of this year, is now the second-largest in the state's history. It's largely contained at this point, but what remains of the blaze is headed toward Hat Creek Radio Observatory, home of the Allen Telescope Array. Operated by the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence (SETI) Institute, the Array is the only radio telescope system designed primarily for exploring the possibility of alien life. According to SETI, as of late last week Dixie was within twelve miles of the Array, prompting the evacuations of its neighboring communities." https://www.coasttocoastam.com/article/42-et-seeking-telescopes-in-the-path-of-california-wildfire/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Sep 13 16:17:11 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 09:17:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Running up against energy limits In-Reply-To: References: <002901d7a70b$ce570fd0$6b052f70$@rainier66.com> <004001d7a7f8$407b2820$c1717860$@rainier66.com> <006601d7a848$52ed8b10$f8c8a130$@rainier66.com> <003101d7a8af$e7e02a90$b7a07fb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002701d7a8ba$cf0602a0$6d1207e0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Running up against energy limits >?Well then, let's urge our government to adopt the Swiss model. I'll bet that's your all-time favorite government attitude towards guns. bill w I counter-suggest The US government adopt the US model. The second amendment is my all-time favorite attitude towards guns. The best part: it is already the law of the land. I urge the US government to embrace it. To carry my previous comment about the National Guard a bit further: I have no objection to the National Guard. Our local mayor is a member. I am a big fan and supporter. But US National Guard only has about 440,000 members and it is dependent upon the government, whereas the American militia is estimated to have around 60 million and is not dependent. That 60 million doesn?t even count its many allies who have aged out (such as both of us) and women, who are not in that count of the legal definition, but they can shoot straight too. Shooting is one of the very few sports where ovarian women can compete on an equal footing with men and testiculated women. It is the only sport like that I know of. Any others? Furthermore? the militia doesn?t depend on funding or salary as the National Guard does. It arms and provisions itself, independent of government support. This is by careful design. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 16:34:25 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 11:34:25 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Running up against energy limits In-Reply-To: <002701d7a8ba$cf0602a0$6d1207e0$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d7a70b$ce570fd0$6b052f70$@rainier66.com> <004001d7a7f8$407b2820$c1717860$@rainier66.com> <006601d7a848$52ed8b10$f8c8a130$@rainier66.com> <003101d7a8af$e7e02a90$b7a07fb0$@rainier66.com> <002701d7a8ba$cf0602a0$6d1207e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: women can compete on an equal footing with men and testiculated women. It is the only sport like that I know of. Any others? spike I guessed table tennis, but even there men have a power advantage. If you look at history, the things women did were usually those things they did better: type: small muscle coordination; sew, play piano and other instruments - as fast as men Just where does one go to sign up for militias? I think John asked this awhile back. Where did '60 million' come from? Is there any organization at all? Such as who calls out the militia? I certainly do not like the militias that make the news. bill w On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 11:22 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Running up against energy limits > > > > >?Well then, let's urge our government to adopt the Swiss model. I'll bet > that's your all-time favorite government attitude towards guns. bill w > > > > > > I counter-suggest The US government adopt the US model. The second > amendment is my all-time favorite attitude towards guns. The best part: it > is already the law of the land. I urge the US government to embrace it. > > > > To carry my previous comment about the National Guard a bit further: I > have no objection to the National Guard. Our local mayor is a member. I > am a big fan and supporter. But US National Guard only has about 440,000 > members and it is dependent upon the government, whereas the American > militia is estimated to have around 60 million and is not dependent. > > > > That 60 million doesn?t even count its many allies who have aged out (such > as both of us) and women, who are not in that count of the legal > definition, but they can shoot straight too. Shooting is one of the very > few sports where ovarian women can compete on an equal footing with men and > testiculated women. It is the only sport like that I know of. Any others? > > > > Furthermore? the militia doesn?t depend on funding or salary as the > National Guard does. It arms and provisions itself, independent of > government support. This is by careful design. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 16:41:31 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 09:41:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Google AI low-resolution photo enhancemen In-Reply-To: <000901d7a8b6$182b8ae0$4882a0a0$@rainier66.com> References: <7bc2952c-89bf-dd52-d4b6-9d84b3bbed26@zaiboc.net> <000901d7a8b6$182b8ae0$4882a0a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 8:49 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Google AI low-resolution photo enhancemen > > > > On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 8:24 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > On Sun, Sep 12, 2021 at 5:34 AM BillK via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > You are obviously correct in saying that to start with a low-res photo > and create a high-res photo involves adding information that is not > present in the original. Nobody is disputing that. > > > > They are if they think that photos can be enhanced to identify perps. > > > > "Our algorithm identified the perp (when we asked it to determine if this > image was more likely to be the person we already wanted to convict, or a > lamp post)." spike > > > > Missing in this discussion is the statistical nature of this algorithm. A > grainy image cannot identify a perp. A thousand grainy imagines can. > Missing in that rebuttal is mention of the police who have no intention of using these tools to discover the truth (not that they are always opposed to it - just, they don't care), but instead to support their preconceived biases and help them convict whoever they want regardless of whether the arrestee really did it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 17:04:54 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 18:04:54 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Google AI low-resolution photo enhancemen In-Reply-To: <002701d7a8b8$93d90080$bb8b0180$@rainier66.com> References: <7bc2952c-89bf-dd52-d4b6-9d84b3bbed26@zaiboc.net> <002701d7a8b8$93d90080$bb8b0180$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Sept 2021 at 17:07, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > Recently a BLM leader Sasha Johnson, was at a BLM party in the London area. They were actively advocating abolition of the police force. Four guys came in there and shot her in the head. No one knows what happened to her after that, but the video allowed the constables to apprehend the four. To the surprise of no one, they pled innocent. > > > BillK is invited to comment, for he is one of the lads from England. > > spike > _______________________________________________ This case hasn't been in the news much in London. Young blacks (gang members) killing each other is not unusual and doesn't stay in the news for long. Officially the four men haven't made a plea yet. That is due in court on Nov 5th. The trial is due next March. No discussion about what evidence might be presented. The four remain in prison awaiting trial. The gangs are a problem in some areas of London, usually associated with drugs and controlling 'their' territory. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Mon Sep 13 18:33:21 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 11:33:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Running up against energy limits In-Reply-To: References: <002901d7a70b$ce570fd0$6b052f70$@rainier66.com> <004001d7a7f8$407b2820$c1717860$@rainier66.com> <006601d7a848$52ed8b10$f8c8a130$@rainier66.com> <003101d7a8af$e7e02a90$b7a07fb0$@rainier66.com> <002701d7a8ba$cf0602a0$6d1207e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004a01d7a8cd$d521e790$7f65b6b0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Running up against energy limits women can compete on an equal footing with men and testiculated women. It is the only sport like that I know of. Any others? spike >?I guessed table tennis, but even there men have a power advantage.. There are some really good women?s ping pong competitors. The 2016 Olympic women?s champion trained right here in town. But they don?t compete with the best men players. >?Just where does one go to sign up for militias? You don?t sign up. To fit the legal definition, you only need to be an able-bodies male US citizen between the ages of 17 and 44 inclusive. You and I are not eligible. But we can be trainers and allies. >? I think John asked this awhile back. Where did '60 million' come from? I just took standard USA age demographics which suggest about 120-some million between 17 and 44, then divided by 2. According to the United States Legal Code, Chapter 12, Title 10, subtitle A, section 246: * ?246. o Militia: composition and classes * The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard. * The classes of the militia are? * the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and * the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia. * ( Aug. 10, 1956, ch. 1041, 70A Stat. 14, ?311; Pub. L. 85?861, ?1(7), Sept. 2, 1958, 72 Stat. 1439; Pub. L. 103?160, div. A, title V, ?524(a), Nov. 30, 1993, 107 Stat. 1656; renumbered ?246, Pub. L. 114?328, div. A, title XII, ?1241(a)(2), Dec. 23, 2016, 130 Stat. 2497.) Many have argued the US legal code isn?t legal, but the Supreme Court opined to the contrary. I argue that the applicable legal law is the actual literal law, as written and ratified. >?Is there any organization at all? Ja. Civilization and its laws. >?Such as who calls out the militia? Don?t worry Billw. When it is time, we will know. We will know. >?I certainly do not like the militias that make the news. billw The US militia is a singular: Amendment II A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. US Constitution, Amendment 2, 1791 That makes it pretty clear to me. The term makes no sense as a plural unless speaking of other nations? militias, and that I don?t actually know. What the US press likes to call militias are actually terrorist groups. The US militia is here to protect the US against terrorist groups if the military and National Guard cannot stop them. The US press doesn?t like to talk about the militia. I don?t recall seeing the last time it was mentioned. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Sep 13 18:40:16 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 11:40:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Google AI low-resolution photo enhancemen In-Reply-To: References: <7bc2952c-89bf-dd52-d4b6-9d84b3bbed26@zaiboc.net> <000901d7a8b6$182b8ae0$4882a0a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005901d7a8ce$cc7cf6b0$6576e410$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat ? >>?Missing in this discussion is the statistical nature of this algorithm. A grainy image cannot identify a perp. A thousand grainy imagines can. >?Missing in that rebuttal is mention of the police who have no intention of using these tools to discover the truth (not that they are always opposed to it - just, they don't care), but instead to support their preconceived biases and help them convict whoever they want regardless of whether the arrestee really did it. Ja, but it isn?t the police who would use the technology. It would be a network of amateur crimefighters, who would solve the mystery just for fun and perhaps a hope of recovering stolen property or getting a murdering rapist off the streets. They might suggest the local constabulary talk to this short list of people about where they were and who saw them on such and such a time and date. Good chance exactly one of the parolees being questioned will break out in a cold sweat, begin stammering and contradicting himself. If used effectively this technology would not increase false conviction rate, it would decrease it. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Sep 13 18:51:14 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 11:51:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Google AI low-resolution photo enhancemen In-Reply-To: References: <7bc2952c-89bf-dd52-d4b6-9d84b3bbed26@zaiboc.net> <002701d7a8b8$93d90080$bb8b0180$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006e01d7a8d0$543eba60$fcbc2f20$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ This case hasn't been in the news much in London. Young blacks (gang members) killing each other is not unusual and doesn't stay in the news for long. Officially the four men haven't made a plea yet. That is due in court on Nov 5th. The trial is due next March. No discussion about what evidence might be presented. The four remain in prison awaiting trial. The gangs are a problem in some areas of London, usually associated with drugs and controlling 'their' territory. BillK _______________________________________________ BillK, I would trust the British press on that, for the US has a complete news blackout on Johnson. Last we heard was in about mid-June: she was still in critical condition three weeks after being shot in the head. After that, not one word in the press on whether she lived or perished, or something in-between. Four months later, it is now unclear if there really ever was a BLM person by the name of Sasha Johnson. We also heard they are holding the one bloke and let the other four go on bail: https://www.thedailybeast.com/cameron-deriggs-charged-in-shooting-of-british -black-lives-matter-activist-sasha-johnson Man Charged in Shooting of British Black Lives Matter Activist Sasha Johnson Emily Shugerman Gender Reporter Published May. 29, 2021 11:47AM ET JUSTIN TALLIS / AFP British police have charged an 18-year-old in the shooting of Black Lives Matter activist Sasha Johnson. London's Metropolitan Police announced Friday that they had charged Cameron Deriggs with conspiracy to murder in the shooting of the 27-year-old activist and mother of two, who remains in critical condition. (Police say they do not believe she was the intended target.) Five men were initially arrested in connection with the May 23 shooting; the four others have been released on bail. Deriggs made an appearance in Westminster Magistrates' Court on Saturday but did not enter a plea. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 20:00:13 2021 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 14:00:13 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Dozens of ET-Seeking Telescopes in the Path of California Wildfires In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We've been getting close, and the aliens don't want to be found. Explains everything. On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 10:14 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > "Northern California's Dixie Fire, which started in July of this year, is > now the second-largest in the state's history. It's largely contained at > this point, but what remains of the blaze is headed toward Hat Creek Radio > Observatory, home of the Allen Telescope Array. Operated by the Search for > Extraterrestrial Intelligence (SETI) Institute, the Array is the only radio > telescope system designed primarily for exploring the possibility of alien > life. According to SETI, as of late last week Dixie was within twelve miles > of the Array, prompting the evacuations of its neighboring communities." > > > https://www.coasttocoastam.com/article/42-et-seeking-telescopes-in-the-path-of-california-wildfire/ > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 20:09:43 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 13:09:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Google AI low-resolution photo enhancemen In-Reply-To: <005901d7a8ce$cc7cf6b0$6576e410$@rainier66.com> References: <7bc2952c-89bf-dd52-d4b6-9d84b3bbed26@zaiboc.net> <000901d7a8b6$182b8ae0$4882a0a0$@rainier66.com> <005901d7a8ce$cc7cf6b0$6576e410$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 11:44 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Ja, but it isn?t the police who would use the technology. > Yes it is. They have no reason not to and perceived reason to use it. There is too much evidence of police who arrest someone for bad reasons then trying to invent justification, rather than performing competent but time-consuming investigations to actually determine the guilty party, if they think they can get away with it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 21:08:47 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 16:08:47 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Running up against energy limits In-Reply-To: <004a01d7a8cd$d521e790$7f65b6b0$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d7a70b$ce570fd0$6b052f70$@rainier66.com> <004001d7a7f8$407b2820$c1717860$@rainier66.com> <006601d7a848$52ed8b10$f8c8a130$@rainier66.com> <003101d7a8af$e7e02a90$b7a07fb0$@rainier66.com> <002701d7a8ba$cf0602a0$6d1207e0$@rainier66.com> <004a01d7a8cd$d521e790$7f65b6b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: A land war in the continental U.S. seems highly improbable. Only if we lost a bomb war could we see foot soldiers here from wherever. bill w On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 1:36 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Running up against energy limits > > > > women can compete on an equal footing with men and testiculated women. It > is the only sport like that I know of. Any others? spike > > > > >?I guessed table tennis, but even there men have a power advantage.. > > There are some really good women?s ping pong competitors. The 2016 > Olympic women?s champion trained right here in town. But they don?t > compete with the best men players. > > > > >?Just where does one go to sign up for militias? > > You don?t sign up. To fit the legal definition, you only need to be an > able-bodies male US citizen between the ages of 17 and 44 inclusive. You > and I are not eligible. But we can be trainers and allies. > > >? I think John asked this awhile back. Where did '60 million' come from > ? > > I just took standard USA age demographics which suggest about 120-some > million between 17 and 44, then divided by 2. > > According to the United States Legal Code, Chapter 12, Title 10, subtitle > A, section 246: > ? ?246. o Militia: composition and classes > > - The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males > at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title > 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of > intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens > of the United States who are members of the National Guard. > - The classes of the militia are? > > > - the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the > Naval Militia; and > - the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the > militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia. > > > - (Aug. 10, 1956, ch. 1041, 70A Stat. 14 > , ?311; Pub. > L. 85?861, ?1(7), Sept. 2, 1958, 72 Stat. 1439 > ; Pub. > L. 103?160, div. A, title V, ?524(a), Nov. 30, 1993, 107 Stat. 1656 > ; > renumbered ?246, Pub. L. 114?328, div. A, title XII, ?1241(a)(2), > Dec. 23, 2016, 130 Stat. 2497 > .) > > Many have argued the US legal code isn?t legal, but the Supreme Court > opined to the contrary. I argue that the applicable legal law is the > actual literal law, as written and ratified. > > >?Is there any organization at all? > > Ja. Civilization and its laws. > > >?Such as who calls out the militia? > > Don?t worry Billw. When it is time, we will know. We will know. > > >?I certainly do not like the militias that make the news. billw > > The US militia is a singular: > > Amendment II > > A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, > the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. > > US Constitution, Amendment 2, 1791 > > That makes it pretty clear to me. The term makes no sense as a plural > unless speaking of other nations? militias, and that I don?t actually > know. What the US press likes to call militias are actually terrorist > groups. > > The US militia is here to protect the US against terrorist groups if the > military and National Guard cannot stop them. The US press doesn?t like to > talk about the militia. I don?t recall seeing the last time it was > mentioned. > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Sep 13 21:59:59 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 14:59:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Running up against energy limits In-Reply-To: References: <002901d7a70b$ce570fd0$6b052f70$@rainier66.com> <004001d7a7f8$407b2820$c1717860$@rainier66.com> <006601d7a848$52ed8b10$f8c8a130$@rainier66.com> <003101d7a8af$e7e02a90$b7a07fb0$@rainier66.com> <002701d7a8ba$cf0602a0$6d1207e0$@rainier66.com> <004a01d7a8cd$d521e790$7f65b6b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005101d7a8ea$b2b97070$182c5150$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >?Subject: Re: [ExI] Running up against energy limits >?A land war in the continental U.S. seems highly improbable? bill w It?s happened before, in the 1860s. Did it seem probable that the US would withdraw from Afghanistan quietly in the night evacuating the military first, handing over tens of billions of dollars in advanced munitions, while stranding American citizens and allies to fall into the hands of sworn enemies? Had you told me that would happen, I would have dismissed it as impossible. The USA doesn?t do stuff like that. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 22:01:00 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 08:01:00 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Running up against energy limits In-Reply-To: <004a01d7a8cd$d521e790$7f65b6b0$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d7a70b$ce570fd0$6b052f70$@rainier66.com> <004001d7a7f8$407b2820$c1717860$@rainier66.com> <006601d7a848$52ed8b10$f8c8a130$@rainier66.com> <003101d7a8af$e7e02a90$b7a07fb0$@rainier66.com> <002701d7a8ba$cf0602a0$6d1207e0$@rainier66.com> <004a01d7a8cd$d521e790$7f65b6b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Sep 2021 at 04:35, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Running up against energy limits > > > > women can compete on an equal footing with men and testiculated women. It > is the only sport like that I know of. Any others? spike > > > > >?I guessed table tennis, but even there men have a power advantage.. > > There are some really good women?s ping pong competitors. The 2016 > Olympic women?s champion trained right here in town. But they don?t > compete with the best men players. > > > > >?Just where does one go to sign up for militias? > > You don?t sign up. To fit the legal definition, you only need to be an > able-bodies male US citizen between the ages of 17 and 44 inclusive. You > and I are not eligible. But we can be trainers and allies. > > >? I think John asked this awhile back. Where did '60 million' come from > ? > > I just took standard USA age demographics which suggest about 120-some > million between 17 and 44, then divided by 2. > > According to the United States Legal Code, Chapter 12, Title 10, subtitle > A, section 246: > ? ?246. o Militia: composition and classes > > - The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males > at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title > 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of > intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens > of the United States who are members of the National Guard. > - The classes of the militia are? > > > - the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the > Naval Militia; and > - the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the > militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia. > > > - (Aug. 10, 1956, ch. 1041, 70A Stat. 14 > , ?311; Pub. > L. 85?861, ?1(7), Sept. 2, 1958, 72 Stat. 1439 > ; Pub. > L. 103?160, div. A, title V, ?524(a), Nov. 30, 1993, 107 Stat. 1656 > ; > renumbered ?246, Pub. L. 114?328, div. A, title XII, ?1241(a)(2), > Dec. 23, 2016, 130 Stat. 2497 > .) > > Many have argued the US legal code isn?t legal, but the Supreme Court > opined to the contrary. I argue that the applicable legal law is the > actual literal law, as written and ratified. > > >?Is there any organization at all? > > Ja. Civilization and its laws. > > >?Such as who calls out the militia? > > Don?t worry Billw. When it is time, we will know. We will know. > > >?I certainly do not like the militias that make the news. billw > > The US militia is a singular: > > Amendment II > > A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, > the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. > > US Constitution, Amendment 2, 1791 > > That makes it pretty clear to me. The term makes no sense as a plural > unless speaking of other nations? militias, and that I don?t actually > know. What the US press likes to call militias are actually terrorist > groups. > > The US militia is here to protect the US against terrorist groups if the > military and National Guard cannot stop them. The US press doesn?t like to > talk about the militia. I don?t recall seeing the last time it was > mentioned. > The people who stormed Congress believing they were upholding freedom and the Constitution called themselves a militia and qualified as such according to the definition you gave. It was only the women and older men among them who did not qualify. -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Sep 13 22:24:59 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 15:24:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Running up against energy limits In-Reply-To: References: <002901d7a70b$ce570fd0$6b052f70$@rainier66.com> <004001d7a7f8$407b2820$c1717860$@rainier66.com> <006601d7a848$52ed8b10$f8c8a130$@rainier66.com> <003101d7a8af$e7e02a90$b7a07fb0$@rainier66.com> <002701d7a8ba$cf0602a0$6d1207e0$@rainier66.com> <004a01d7a8cd$d521e790$7f65b6b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006f01d7a8ee$30bb67f0$923237d0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat >?The people who stormed Congress believing they were upholding freedom and the Constitution called themselves a militia and qualified as such? Some of them were part of the militia, others were not. That some called themselves A militia tells you what you need to know. >? according to the definition you gave? I gave the legal definition of the militia (singular.) Private definitions are irrelevant to me. >? It was only the women and older men among them who did not qualify. -- Stathis Papaioannou Irrelevant. The reason we have the militia (singular) is to protect the USA from any group of people calling themselves a militia or militias (plural) as well as any other bad actors. We, the militia, are many, and we are well armed, which is why I wasn?t the least bit concerned about the people who stormed congress. The people who stormed the capital were not armed. The cap police were armed. That should tell you something. There were two fatalities: one protestor was trampled, another was shot by capital police. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 22:25:01 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 15:25:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Running up against energy limits In-Reply-To: <005101d7a8ea$b2b97070$182c5150$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d7a70b$ce570fd0$6b052f70$@rainier66.com> <004001d7a7f8$407b2820$c1717860$@rainier66.com> <006601d7a848$52ed8b10$f8c8a130$@rainier66.com> <003101d7a8af$e7e02a90$b7a07fb0$@rainier66.com> <002701d7a8ba$cf0602a0$6d1207e0$@rainier66.com> <004a01d7a8cd$d521e790$7f65b6b0$@rainier66.com> <005101d7a8ea$b2b97070$182c5150$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 3:02 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Did it seem probable that the US would withdraw from Afghanistan quietly > in the night evacuating the military first, handing over tens of billions > of dollars in advanced munitions, while stranding American citizens and > allies to fall into the hands of sworn enemies? > Yes. > Had you told me that would happen, I would have dismissed it as > impossible. The USA doesn?t do stuff like that. > Not often. But the predictions had specific callbacks to Vietnam. (Granted, "tens of billions of dollars" was in part due to inflation between then and now.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Sep 13 22:51:06 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 15:51:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Running up against energy limits In-Reply-To: References: <002901d7a70b$ce570fd0$6b052f70$@rainier66.com> <004001d7a7f8$407b2820$c1717860$@rainier66.com> <006601d7a848$52ed8b10$f8c8a130$@rainier66.com> <003101d7a8af$e7e02a90$b7a07fb0$@rainier66.com> <002701d7a8ba$cf0602a0$6d1207e0$@rainier66.com> <004a01d7a8cd$d521e790$7f65b6b0$@rainier66.com> <005101d7a8ea$b2b97070$182c5150$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008201d7a8f1$d6de0c20$849a2460$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Running up against energy limits On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 3:02 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: Did it seem probable that the US would withdraw from Afghanistan quietly in the night evacuating the military first?? Yes. I don?t get it. Why didn?t they get the civilians and allies out first, in an organized orderly way with the Bagram AFB still fully operational and providing cover fire? We don?t understand that at all. When the last civilian and ally is safe elsewhere, then the military could slip out without warning. Now? we face a hostage situation worse than the one in Iran 40 yrs ago. Before it is over, the US may need to shoot its way back in. Or leave American hostages to die. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tara at taramayastales.com Mon Sep 13 22:52:46 2021 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 15:52:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Running up against energy limits In-Reply-To: References: <002901d7a70b$ce570fd0$6b052f70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <1168496D-D285-4D41-BA4D-29F7B87D3C51@taramayastales.com> > > China doesn?t have a history of invading other countries. If you think this, you aren't thinking on the proper scale. China looks back upon 5000 years of history. Qin invaded many other countries and forced them to become China. So they have an extremely successful record of invading and ruling other countries. I do believe they intend to be the ruling power for the next 5000 years and if it takes a few decades, or centuries, on that scale, that's fine. Americans tend to think in very short timescales, I fear. On the other hand, those in China who want a different system remember those other nations and want to change the centrist, statist model to a federal model. Will that work? Time will tell. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 22:57:20 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 08:57:20 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Running up against energy limits In-Reply-To: <006f01d7a8ee$30bb67f0$923237d0$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d7a70b$ce570fd0$6b052f70$@rainier66.com> <004001d7a7f8$407b2820$c1717860$@rainier66.com> <006601d7a848$52ed8b10$f8c8a130$@rainier66.com> <003101d7a8af$e7e02a90$b7a07fb0$@rainier66.com> <002701d7a8ba$cf0602a0$6d1207e0$@rainier66.com> <004a01d7a8cd$d521e790$7f65b6b0$@rainier66.com> <006f01d7a8ee$30bb67f0$923237d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Sep 2021 at 08:26, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > > >?The people who stormed Congress believing they were upholding freedom > and the Constitution called themselves a militia and qualified as such? > > > > Some of them were part of the militia, others were not. That some called > themselves A militia tells you what you need to know. > > > > >? according to the definition you gave? > > > > I gave the legal definition of the militia (singular.) Private > definitions are irrelevant to me. > > > > >? It was only the women and older men among them who did not qualify. > > -- > > Stathis Papaioannou > > > > > > Irrelevant. The reason we have the militia (singular) is to protect the > USA from any group of people calling themselves a militia or militias > (plural) as well as any other bad actors. We, the militia, are many, and > we are well armed, which is why I wasn?t the least bit concerned about the > people who stormed congress. > > > > The people who stormed the capital were not armed. The cap police were > armed. That should tell you something. There were two fatalities: one > protestor was trampled, another was shot by capital police. > So the only reason the people who stormed Congress did not qualify fir the legal definition of a militia is that they were not armed? Or is it more the fact that they weren?t really upholding freedom and the constitution that is the problem? But they believed that they were; who decides if they are wrong? > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Sep 14 00:59:01 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 17:59:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Running up against energy limits In-Reply-To: References: <002901d7a70b$ce570fd0$6b052f70$@rainier66.com> <004001d7a7f8$407b2820$c1717860$@rainier66.com> <006601d7a848$52ed8b10$f8c8a130$@rainier66.com> <003101d7a8af$e7e02a90$b7a07fb0$@rainier66.com> <002701d7a8ba$cf0602a0$6d1207e0$@rainier66.com> <004a01d7a8cd$d521e790$7f65b6b0$@rainier66.com> <006f01d7a8ee$30bb67f0$923237d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002101d7a903$b53feae0$1fbfc0a0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat >?So the only reason the people who stormed Congress did not qualify fir the legal definition of a militia is that they were not armed? A militia or the militia? There were members of the militia among them. But if they called themselves a militia, they were merely a terrorist group, which the militia opposes. >? Or is it more the fact that they weren?t really upholding freedom and the constitution that is the problem? But they believed that they were; who decides if they are wrong? -- Stathis Papaioannou The militia, if the police and military fail. The police and military didn?t fail. Well, one did actually. One of them shot somebody. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 01:19:54 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 11:19:54 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Running up against energy limits In-Reply-To: <002101d7a903$b53feae0$1fbfc0a0$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d7a70b$ce570fd0$6b052f70$@rainier66.com> <004001d7a7f8$407b2820$c1717860$@rainier66.com> <006601d7a848$52ed8b10$f8c8a130$@rainier66.com> <003101d7a8af$e7e02a90$b7a07fb0$@rainier66.com> <002701d7a8ba$cf0602a0$6d1207e0$@rainier66.com> <004a01d7a8cd$d521e790$7f65b6b0$@rainier66.com> <006f01d7a8ee$30bb67f0$923237d0$@rainier66.com> <002101d7a903$b53feae0$1fbfc0a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Sep 2021 at 11:00, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > > > > > > > > >?So the only reason the people who stormed Congress did not qualify fir > the legal definition of a militia is that they were not armed? > > > > A militia or the militia? There were members of the militia among them. > But if they called themselves a militia, they were merely a terrorist > group, which the militia opposes. > > > > > > >? Or is it more the fact that they weren?t really upholding freedom and > the constitution that is the problem? But they believed that they were; who > decides if they are wrong? > > -- > > Stathis Papaioannou > > > > The militia, if the police and military fail. The police and military > didn?t fail. Well, one did actually. One of them shot somebody. > They believed that the police and military failed because they were supporting the wrong side. If they didn?t believe that they would have stayed home. So in their view, they were the legitimate militia, not terrorists. Who decides if the militia is legitimate or not in these cases? > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Sep 14 01:29:21 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 18:29:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Running up against energy limits In-Reply-To: References: <002901d7a70b$ce570fd0$6b052f70$@rainier66.com> <004001d7a7f8$407b2820$c1717860$@rainier66.com> <006601d7a848$52ed8b10$f8c8a130$@rainier66.com> <003101d7a8af$e7e02a90$b7a07fb0$@rainier66.com> <002701d7a8ba$cf0602a0$6d1207e0$@rainier66.com> <004a01d7a8cd$d521e790$7f65b6b0$@rainier66.com> <006f01d7a8ee$30bb67f0 $923237d0$@rainier66.com> <002101d7a903$b53feae0$1fbfc0a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003501d7a907$f21274c0$d6375e40$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat >?They believed that the police and military failed because they were supporting the wrong side. If they didn?t believe that they would have stayed home. So in their view, they were the legitimate militia, not terrorists. Who decides if the militia is legitimate or not in these cases? -- Stathis Papaioannou The police and the military. The militia is their backup. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 02:33:05 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 12:33:05 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Running up against energy limits In-Reply-To: <003501d7a907$f21274c0$d6375e40$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d7a70b$ce570fd0$6b052f70$@rainier66.com> <004001d7a7f8$407b2820$c1717860$@rainier66.com> <006601d7a848$52ed8b10$f8c8a130$@rainier66.com> <003101d7a8af$e7e02a90$b7a07fb0$@rainier66.com> <002701d7a8ba$cf0602a0$6d1207e0$@rainier66.com> <004a01d7a8cd$d521e790$7f65b6b0$@rainier66.com> <002101d7a903$b53feae0$1fbfc0a0$@rainier66.com> <003501d7a907$f21274c0$d6375e40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Sep 2021 at 11:31, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > > >?They believed that the police and military failed because they were > supporting the wrong side. If they didn?t believe that they would have > stayed home. So in their view, they were the legitimate militia, not > terrorists. Who decides if the militia is legitimate or not in these cases? > > -- > > Stathis Papaioannou > > > > > > The police and the military. > > > > The militia is their backup. > But I recall in the past that you have said the police, military and Government in general might be doing the wrong thing by the Constitution, and resisting that is one of the main reason for civilians to be armed. So who decides if this is the case? > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Sep 14 03:23:36 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 20:23:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Running up against energy limits In-Reply-To: References: <002901d7a70b$ce570fd0$6b052f70$@rainier66.com> <004001d7a7f8$407b2820$c1717860$@rainier66.com> <006601d7a848$52ed8b10$f8c8a130$@rainier66.com> <003101d7a8af$e7e02a90$b7a07fb0$@rainier66.com> <002701d7a8ba$cf0602a0$6d1207e0$@rainier66.com> <004a01d7a8cd$d521e790$7f65b6b0$@rainier66.com> <002101d7a903$b53feae0$1fbfc0a0$@rainier66.com> <003501d7a907$f21274c0$d6375e40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002401d7a917$e847f1d0$b8d7d570$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat ? The militia is their backup. But I recall in the past that you have said the police, military and Government in general might be doing the wrong thing by the Constitution, and resisting that is one of the main reason for civilians to be armed. So who decides if this is the case? -- Stathis Papaioannou I did not say this. There were people trying to get me to say this, but I pointed out that government in general cannot do the wrong thing by the constitution. If they do, then the Supreme Court puts and end to that. If the government defies the Supreme Court, they are not the government. The Constitution is the rule of law, the Supreme Court is the final say on the matter. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 04:07:39 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 14:07:39 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Running up against energy limits In-Reply-To: <002401d7a917$e847f1d0$b8d7d570$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d7a70b$ce570fd0$6b052f70$@rainier66.com> <004001d7a7f8$407b2820$c1717860$@rainier66.com> <006601d7a848$52ed8b10$f8c8a130$@rainier66.com> <003101d7a8af$e7e02a90$b7a07fb0$@rainier66.com> <002701d7a8ba$cf0602a0$6d1207e0$@rainier66.com> <004a01d7a8cd$d521e790$7f65b6b0$@rainier66.com> <002101d7a903$b53feae0$1fbfc0a0$@rainier66.com> <003501d7a907$f21274c0$d6375e40$@rainier66.com> <002401d7a917$e847f1d0$b8d7d570$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Sep 2021 at 13:25, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > *?* > > The militia is their backup. > > But I recall in the past that you have said the police, military and > Government in general might be doing the wrong thing by the Constitution, > and resisting that is one of the main reason for civilians to be armed. So > who decides if this is the case? > > -- > > Stathis Papaioannou > > > > > > I did not say this. There were people trying to get me to say this, but I > pointed out that government in general cannot do the wrong thing by the > constitution. If they do, then the Supreme Court puts and end to that. If > the government defies the Supreme Court, they are not the government. The > Constitution is the rule of law, the Supreme Court is the final say on the > matter. > OK, that?s clear. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 22:35:03 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 15:35:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I want a 2.3 billion dollar submarine yacht! Message-ID: "The Migaloo super-submarines are the future of both private submarines and superyachts. These innovative homes-at-sea come in four different options (the M2, M4, M5 and M7) and feature everything from helipads, swimming pools and jacuzzis to underwater observation decks and their own mini-submarines. Their design is based on Navy-class submarines and they blow private subs like the Phoenix 1000 right out of the water. But they also come with an incredible price tag-- the base model is estimated to cost at least $1 billion, while the top tier model will set you back about $2.3 billion. If you?re ever dreamed of feeling like a Bond villain with your own private underwater lair, then the Migaloo is probably for you. The interiors are completely customizable so you can decorate your villainous hide-out in whatever way you like, and you can store your helicopter, jet skis and boats right on board. If you really want to have the most exclusive sea-life imaginable, then you can even splurge for the matching private island that?s not really an island at all. Kokomo Ailand is another Migaloo design that puts actual private islands to shame. It?s a floating habitat complete with live trees, gardens and waterfalls, as well as pools, a shark-feeding station, an underwater dining room, and a glass elevator that?ll take you to your own penthouse suite. Here?s everything you can?t wait to know about the innovative Migaloo designs, and why it?s the most exclusive-- and expensive-- submersible superyacht in the world." I definitely want one... And short of a space station, it would be the perfect place for the next Extropians conference... : ) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKUzJGKYhX8 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 22:39:16 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 15:39:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Toyota bZ4X concept electric battery Topics Electrifying the Future: Toyota Puts Over $13 Billion Into Battery Technology Message-ID: "The world?s largest car manufacturer by volume has been sluggish in its efforts to electrify compared to competitors. But Toyota has just announced a huge investment in battery technology that may be a sign it?s shifting course. Although Toyota?s Prius hybrid was the first electrified vehicle to really hit the mainstream, the company failed to capitalize on its early lead. It still doesn?t sell a fully electric vehicle in either the US or Japan, at a time when more or less every major automaker?from Volvo to Volkswagen?has at least one model powered by batteries alone. The company seems to be belatedly joining the party after executives announced that it would invest $13.6 billion in battery technology over the next decade. This includes $9 billion to be spent on manufacturing, which will see it scale up to 10 battery production lines by 2025 and ultimately up to around 70. During a press briefing, chief technology officer Masahiko Maeda said part of the company?s plan is to reduce the cost of batteries by 30 percent or more through innovations in materials and new designs. They are also working on ways to reduce the amount of energy the car draws from those batteries by 30 percent. All of this follows from the company?s April announcement that it plans to release 70 electric cars around the world by 2025, suggesting that it?s finally joining the consensus among automakers that electric vehicles are the future." https://singularityhub.com/2021/09/13/electrifying-the-future-toyota-puts-over-13-billion-into-battery-technology/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hibbard at wisc.edu Tue Sep 14 12:28:43 2021 From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 12:28:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] update software on all your Apple devices immediately Message-ID: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/13/technology/apple-software-update-spyware-nso-group.html On Monday, Ivan Krsti?, Apple?s head of security engineering and architecture commended Citizen Lab for its findings and urged customers to run the latest software updates for the fixes to take effect, by installing iOS 14.8, MacOS 11.6 and WatchOS 7.6.2. From atymes at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 17:22:37 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 10:22:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] update software on all your Apple devices immediately In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Non-paywalled: https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/apple-ios-14-8-pegasus-security-fix-all-iphone-users-urged-to-update-immediately/ On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 5:31 AM Bill Hibbard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/13/technology/apple-software-update-spyware-nso-group.html > > On Monday, Ivan Krsti?, Apple?s head of security engineering and > architecture commended Citizen Lab for its findings and urged customers to > run the latest software updates for the fixes to take effect, by > installing iOS 14.8, MacOS 11.6 and WatchOS > 7.6.2._______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 19:49:13 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 12:49:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I want a 2.3 billion dollar submarine yacht! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At those price tags, do they sell even one of each model? I suppose maybe, if they can be financed for acquisition by sub-billionaires. On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 12:34 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > "The Migaloo super-submarines are the future of both private submarines > and superyachts. These innovative homes-at-sea come in four different > options (the M2, M4, M5 and M7) and feature everything from helipads, > swimming pools and jacuzzis to underwater observation decks and their own > mini-submarines. Their design is based on Navy-class submarines and they > blow private subs like the Phoenix 1000 right out of the water. But they > also come with an incredible price tag-- the base model is estimated to > cost at least $1 billion, while the top tier model will set you back about > $2.3 billion. If you?re ever dreamed of feeling like a Bond villain with > your own private underwater lair, then the Migaloo is probably for you. The > interiors are completely customizable so you can decorate your villainous > hide-out in whatever way you like, and you can store your helicopter, jet > skis and boats right on board. If you really want to have the most > exclusive sea-life imaginable, then you can even splurge for the matching > private island that?s not really an island at all. Kokomo Ailand is another > Migaloo design that puts actual private islands to shame. It?s a floating > habitat complete with live trees, gardens and waterfalls, as well as pools, > a shark-feeding station, an underwater dining room, and a glass elevator > that?ll take you to your own penthouse suite. Here?s everything you can?t > wait to know about the innovative Migaloo designs, and why it?s the most > exclusive-- and expensive-- submersible superyacht in the world." > > I definitely want one... And short of a space station, it would be the > perfect place for the next Extropians conference... : ) > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKUzJGKYhX8 > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 20:00:01 2021 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 14:00:01 -0600 Subject: [ExI] I want a 2.3 billion dollar submarine yacht! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At that kind of price, any potential customer should be able to extract long term tax concessions from the jurisdiction where the company is based. On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 1:52 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > At those price tags, do they sell even one of each model? I suppose > maybe, if they can be financed for acquisition by sub-billionaires. > > On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 12:34 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> "The Migaloo super-submarines are the future of both private submarines >> and superyachts. These innovative homes-at-sea come in four different >> options (the M2, M4, M5 and M7) and feature everything from helipads, >> swimming pools and jacuzzis to underwater observation decks and their own >> mini-submarines. Their design is based on Navy-class submarines and they >> blow private subs like the Phoenix 1000 right out of the water. But they >> also come with an incredible price tag-- the base model is estimated to >> cost at least $1 billion, while the top tier model will set you back about >> $2.3 billion. If you?re ever dreamed of feeling like a Bond villain with >> your own private underwater lair, then the Migaloo is probably for you. The >> interiors are completely customizable so you can decorate your villainous >> hide-out in whatever way you like, and you can store your helicopter, jet >> skis and boats right on board. If you really want to have the most >> exclusive sea-life imaginable, then you can even splurge for the matching >> private island that?s not really an island at all. Kokomo Ailand is another >> Migaloo design that puts actual private islands to shame. It?s a floating >> habitat complete with live trees, gardens and waterfalls, as well as pools, >> a shark-feeding station, an underwater dining room, and a glass elevator >> that?ll take you to your own penthouse suite. Here?s everything you can?t >> wait to know about the innovative Migaloo designs, and why it?s the most >> exclusive-- and expensive-- submersible superyacht in the world." >> >> I definitely want one... And short of a space station, it would be the >> perfect place for the next Extropians conference... : ) >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKUzJGKYhX8 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk Tue Sep 14 20:28:27 2021 From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 20:28:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] I want a 2.3 billion dollar submarine yacht! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <516552623.45837.1631651307128@mail.yahoo.com> I looked at this and thought "This looks like a load of expensive computer renderings, plus some stop motion footage of a single vessel under construction". I decided to ask mr google his opinion, and this article from Bloomberg from 2017 appeared:?https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-15/before-you-spend-2-billion-on-your-own-submarine-read-this At that time, out of three manufacturers only one was under contract to build a civilian vessel, and it's the Ocean Submarine Neyk L3 which only costs 20 million euros. Now it's been four years since that article, but I suspect all the billion-dollar models are just that - models - and the existing civilian subs are only tens of millions of dollars, and probably outperformed by the models used by the oil industry (but a lot more comfortable - I never want to be a saturation diver). Apparently the $90million Phoenix 1000 is the largest civilian submarine actually built. Yes, I'd like one. No, I don't think I'll ever be financially successful enough to afford one unless 3D printers capable of printing whole vehicles become economical. Tom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 22:35:23 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 15:35:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Running up against energy limits In-Reply-To: <008201d7a8f1$d6de0c20$849a2460$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d7a70b$ce570fd0$6b052f70$@rainier66.com> <004001d7a7f8$407b2820$c1717860$@rainier66.com> <006601d7a848$52ed8b10$f8c8a130$@rainier66.com> <003101d7a8af$e7e02a90$b7a07fb0$@rainier66.com> <002701d7a8ba$cf0602a0$6d1207e0$@rainier66.com> <004a01d7a8cd$d521e790$7f65b6b0$@rainier66.com> <005101d7a8ea$b2b97070$182c5150$@rainier66.com> <008201d7a8f1$d6de0c20$849a2460$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 3:53 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I don?t get it. Why didn?t they get the civilians and allies out first, > in an organized orderly way with the Bagram AFB still fully operational and > providing cover fire? We don?t understand that at all. When the last > civilian and ally is safe elsewhere, then the military could slip out > without warning. > Those of us who were dealing with the facts of Afghanistan - that they don't have American maintenance locally, that many of their police and military haven't been paid for a while, et cetera - saw it coming. These facts were either masked in reports to, or ignored by, the upper reaches of the administration for much of the past 20 years. Now? we face a hostage situation worse than the one in Iran 40 yrs ago. > > > > Before it is over, the US may need to shoot its way back in. Or leave > American hostages to die. > Those Americans who are still there, either did not want to leave or were ordered to stay (e.g. soldiers). They're hardly hostages. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 17:45:42 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 10:45:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Report=3A_Gen=2E_Milley_held_top-secret_meeting_?= =?utf-8?q?to_block_Trump=E2=80=99s_nuke_access=3B_told_staff_to_di?= =?utf-8?q?sobey_all_but_his_orders?= Message-ID: I find this disturbing, and yet I do understand that the general's motivations were good and the actions needed... I just hope this does not become a trend... "In the days following the storming of the U.S. Capitol on January 6, Joint Chiefs Chairman Gen. Mark Milley held a top-secret meeting with senior military officials to take action against then Commander-in-chief Donald Trump, blocking the president from potentially launching nuclear weapons and ordering staff to ignore all orders except Milley?s, a new book entitled ?Peril? by journalists Bob Woodward and Robert Costa revealed, as reported by CNN on Tuesday. Prior to taking action, Milley had multiple phone calls with China?s top general and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi. The two journalists wrote that Milley ?was certain that Trump had gone into a serious mental decline in the aftermath of the election, with Trump now all but manic, screaming at officials and constructing his own alternate reality about endless election conspiracies.? Milley was reportedly concerned the president could ?go rogue.? In the secret meeting, Milley ordered the officials in charge of the National Military Command Center not to take orders from anyone except him. ?No matter what you are told, you do the procedure. You do the process. And I?m part of that procedure,? Milley ordered, according to the book. The general then moved around the room and received verbal confirmation from each person. ?Got it?? Milley asked, the book said. The authors wrote that Milley considered the order ?an oath.? According to the book, Milley engaged in two back-channel phone calls with China?s top general and promised he would warn the nation of an attack." https://americanmilitarynews.com/2021/09/report-gen-milley-held-top-secret-meeting-to-block-trumps-access-to-nukes-told-staff-to-disobey-all-but-his-orders/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 17:54:29 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 10:54:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] These Apps Saved My Sanity (and Probably My Marriage) Message-ID: I've somewhat fallen into the "cell phones are bad for kids and turn them into zombies" camp, but this article shows how they can get families to better communicate and get things done with a minimum of craziness... "According to Brent Sweitzer , a private practice professional counselor in Cumming, Georgia, who works with families, technology for families gets a bad rap. ?We've all seen examples of where personal screens have gotten in the way of communication and connection,? says Sweitzer. ?However, in using apps and other tech tools, the wisdom is in knowing what the technology or app or tool is facilitating?such as more time authentically being with people we care about, enjoying the natural world, playing and laughing together, and living a connected life. Find tech and tools that can help with that.? "Sweitzer also acknowledges the positive effects an organized, well-structured environment can have on kids, with technology, such as apps, paving the way. ?Children thrive with structure and where healthy expectations are clear. Consistency leads to predictability and a sense of safety, which leads to feelings of security,? he says. If you?re new to the concept of using a family app to stay organized, having everything captured in the frame of your phone?that everyone else in your family can have captured in theirs too?is a game changer. In our home, there?s no more fear of missed communications or conflict of events. With organization apps very much a part of our daily routine, adding things to the to-do list, grocery list, or even the family calendar are second nature. I?ve caught my tween dancing to TikTok while punching in items on our calendar and seen my 9-year-old cracking open the fridge, then tapping missing grocery items into our running list. I?d say these apps don?t just make life easier. They take responsibility and organization to a whole new level, both for budding adolescents and bickering spouses." https://www.wired.com/story/family-organization-apps-saved-my-marriage/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 18:04:40 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 11:04:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] A Stroke Study Reveals the Future of Human Augmentation Message-ID: "IT BEGAN IN early October 2017, when 108 stroke patients with significant arm and hand disabilities turned up for a peculiar clinical trial. The researchers would be surgically implanting a neurostimulator to their vagus nerve , the cranial nerve that runs along the groove in the front of the neck and is responsible for transmitting signals from the brain to other parts of the body. By the time the trial concluded, the subjects? once limited limbs had begun to come back to life. Somehow, pulses to that nerve combined with rehab therapy had given the patients improved use of their disabled limb?and done so faster and more effectively than any treatment before it, even on those who had responded to nothing else. This spring, the findings of the trial were published in *The Lancet* . Reversal of paralysis is, in itself, an astonishing feat. But embedded in the article was something even more radical. It wasn?t *what* the patients learned, but *how* they learned it: By stimulating the vagus nerve, they had compressed years of physical therapy into months. The trial was meant as a way of repairing damage and restoring motor control. But what if there had been no damage to begin with? In the hands of the healthy and fit, such technology could significantly enhance physical performance?the question is whether humans are ready to contend with it. It?s only a matter of time before neuromodulation becomes marketable. Once it?s scalable and affordable, it?s likely to have wide appeal for a public, and specifically athletes, already interested in optimizing the human body. But in sports, enhancements come with regulations, and even aside from the usual controversies over doping, professional competitions already have their fair share of murkiness and debate in this area. For instance, the first trans woman ever to compete in the Olympics, Laurel Hubbard , was eligible to compete in the Tokyo Games only if her total testosterone level (in serum) was below 10 nanomoles per liter and has been for at least 12 months. But those same rules disqualified two-time Olympic gold medalist Caster Semenya of South Africa because though she has XY chromosomes, she also has elevated testosterone levels.The potential applications of this technology aren?t difficult to imagine. As seen in the trial, when the vagus nerve receives extra stimulation, it causes the brain to release neuromodulators, which regulate the body?s responses. They come online just as the patient is attempting a new task, strengthening the motor circuits involved. ?When you practice golf or anything, it?s the same,? explains Charles Liu, the lead neurosurgeon of the study and director of the USC Neurorestoration Center. ?There isn?t much difference in teaching a stroke victim to use a fork and teaching an elite athlete to hit a baseball better.? It?s just repeated action and developing and reinforcing brain-motor circuits. If that process can be sped up, then we?ve just learned how to optimize the brain?and how to augment human beings. Currently, biotech approaches such as stem cells have shown promise for repairing damaged nerves, while brain-machine interfaces aim to replace the lost function by bypassing the injury and connecting the brain directly to the muscles. But this stroke study revealed that neuromodulation plus task-specific practice enhances Hebbian learning ?or activity-dependent synaptic plasticity, with all your muscles firing in sequence. Generally, to acquire a skill, the brain?s neurons need to fire in the right way at the right time; practice is the usual human course, but now, stimulation lets us do it faster, and better, too. Neurostimulation promises to complicate this further. Unlike with steroids or hormones, there?s no obvious way to monitor it. In a healthy person with full use of their limbs, it may be impossible to track whether or not the stimulation of the vagus nerve occurred or how long ago. If the athlete had an implanted neurotransmitter, that might be suggestive, but not conclusive. After all, the body is releasing its own neuromodulators; nothing apart from the electrical stimulation itself is foreign to the body. Even if the Olympic committee were to announce regulation requirements as they have for testosterone levels, measuring brain stimulation would require either that athletes or stimulation providers document usage, or some form of internal examinations of the implant device. But requiring surveillance of an athlete?s brain trespasses into one of the last vestiges of private space; any form of regulation would need to be accompanied by guidelines to protect against abuse. These mechanisms of monitoring and enforcement must be addressed?and quickly, before technology outstrips our ethics." https://www.wired.com/story/vagus-nerve-stroke-study-human-augmentation/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 18:12:47 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 11:12:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] An 'Internet apocalypse' could ride to Earth with the next solar storm, new research warns Message-ID: Can you imagine this and a global pandemic happening at the same time? Whoa... "In short, a severe solar storm could plunge the world into an "internet apocalypse" that keeps large swaths of society offline for weeks or months at a time, Sangeetha Abdu Jyothi, an assistant professor at the University of California, Irvine, wrote in the new *research paper* . (The paper has yet to appear in a peer-reviewed journal). "What really got me thinking about this is that with the pandemic we saw how unprepared the world was. There was no protocol to deal with it effectively, and it's the same with internet resilience," Abdu Jyothi *told WIRED* . "Our infrastructure is not prepared for a large-scale solar event." Part of the problem is that extreme solar storms (also called coronal mass ejections) are *relatively rare* ; scientists estimate the probability of an extreme space weather directly impacting Earth to be between 1.6% to 12% per decade, according to Abdu Jyothi's paper. In recent history, only two such storms have been recorded ? one in 1859 and the other in 1921. The earlier incident, known as the *Carrington Event* , created such a severe geomagnetic disturbance on Earth that telegraph wires burst into flame, and auroras ? usually only visible near the planet's poles ? were spotted near equatorial Colombia. Smaller storms can also pack a punch; one in March 1989 blacked out the entire Canadian province of Quebec for nine hours." https://www.livescience.com/solar-storm-internet-apocalypse -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 18:17:25 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 11:17:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 1st sign of elusive 'triangle singularity' shows particles swapping identities in mid-flight Message-ID: "Physicists sifting through old particle accelerator data have found evidence of a highly-elusive, never-before-seen process: a so-called triangle singularity. First envisioned by Russian physicist Lev Landau in the 1950s, a triangle singularity refers to a rare subatomic process where particles exchange identities before flying away from each other. In this scenario, two particles ? called kaons ? form two corners of the triangle, while the particles they swap form the third point on the triangle. "The particles involved exchanged quarks and changed their identities in the process," study co-author Bernhard Ketzer, of the Helmholtz Institute for Radiation and Nuclear Physics at the University of Bonn, *said in a statement* . And it's called a singularity because the mathematical methods for describing subatomic particle interactions break down. If this singularly weird particle identity-swap really happened, it could help physicists understand the *strong force* , which binds the nucleus together." https://www.livescience.com/first-evidence-triangle-singularity -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Sep 15 04:13:18 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 21:13:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Report=3A_Gen=2E_Milley_held_top-secret_meeting_?= =?utf-8?q?to_block_Trump=E2=80=99s_nuke_access=3B_told_staff_to_di?= =?utf-8?q?sobey_all_but_his_orders?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006f01d7a9e8$040bfbc0$0c23f340$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Grigg via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Report: Gen. Milley held top-secret meeting to block Trump?s nuke access; told staff to disobey all but his orders >?I find this disturbing, and yet I do understand that the general's motivations were good and the actions needed... I just hope this does not become a trend... >?"In the days following the storming of the U.S. Capitol on January 6, Joint Chiefs Chairman Gen. Mark Milley held a top-secret meeting with senior military officials to take action against then Commander-in-chief Donald Trump?. Journalist Bob Woodward has accused a top general of treason and insurrection. The accusation is either true or not true. It?s either Woody or Milley. One of those two is going down hard. When Journalists do this kinda thing, they better have a really tall pile of evidence. John, which do you believe it will be? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 20:23:14 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 13:23:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Report=3A_Gen=2E_Milley_held_top-secret_meeting_?= =?utf-8?q?to_block_Trump=E2=80=99s_nuke_access=3B_told_staff_to_di?= =?utf-8?q?sobey_all_but_his_orders?= In-Reply-To: <006f01d7a9e8$040bfbc0$0c23f340$@rainier66.com> References: <006f01d7a9e8$040bfbc0$0c23f340$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike wrote: "Journalist Bob Woodward has accused a top general of treason and insurrection. The accusation is either true or not true. It?s either Woody or Milley. One of those two is going down hard. When Journalists do this kinda thing, they better have a really tall pile of evidence. John, which do you believe it will be?" I strongly suspect that due to Trump's well known instability towards the end, and due to Biden being in the White House, that the general will get away with what he did. I do think that ideally, even though what he did was in a sense noble, that it still sets a bad precedent, and so Milley should be asked to immediately resign. What would really impress me, is the general resigning without an order to do so, after he explains to the American people about the possible very negative long term ramifications of what he did. When it comes to Woodward, this will only strengthen his already legendary career. I recommend everyone here read the novel, "The Profession," by the award winning Steven Pressfield. It tells the story of an America in great decline, and a USMC general/war hero who wins the presidential election against the very president who fired him for nearly starting a nuclear war. The general is the quality of man Trump could only dream of being. Handsome, highly intelligent and shrewd, worldly wise, extremely charismatic, loyal to one woman, and adored by much of the public, he wins by a landslide and then goes to work remaking the nation in his image. Having been a former dirty tricks master for the U.S. intelligence community, he actually has his loyal henchmen assassinate any journalists, business leaders or politicians who dare to successfully oppose him. There is a chilling scene where a leading senator who keeps blocking the president is kidnapped and killed by lethal injection, with the new president watching, approvingly. Even as many Americans sense something is very wrong in the country, they see the positive changes helping the average citizen, and so they look the other way. The book has a great ending that I will not reveal. I hope one day this novel is adapted into a quality film. John On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 9:16 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *John Grigg via extropy-chat > *Subject:* [ExI] Report: Gen. Milley held top-secret meeting to block > Trump?s nuke access; told staff to disobey all but his orders > > > > >?I find this disturbing, and yet I do understand that the general's > motivations were good and the actions needed... I just hope this does not > become a trend... > > >?"In the days following the storming of the U.S. Capitol on January 6, > Joint Chiefs Chairman Gen. Mark Milley held a top-secret meeting with > senior military officials to take action against then Commander-in-chief > Donald Trump?. > > > > Journalist Bob Woodward has accused a top general of treason and > insurrection. The accusation is either true or not true. It?s either > Woody or Milley. One of those two is going down hard. > > When Journalists do this kinda thing, they better have a really tall pile > of evidence. > > John, which do you believe it will be? > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 21:12:13 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 14:12:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] New Bioscience Company Raises $15 Million to Revive Woolly Mammoth Message-ID: "Boasting a whopping $15 million in funding, a newly formed bioscience company hopes to bring the woolly mammoth back from extinction. Dubbed 'Colossal,' the organization is reportedly spearheaded by technology entrepreneur Ben Lamm and Harvard geneticist George Church. The first stage of the ambitious project will be centered around producing a hybrid creature, of sorts, comprised of Asian elephant DNA that has been infused with woolly mammoth genes that are responsible for the animal's iconic hairy coat and bodily characteristics that allow it to withstand freezing temperatures. Ultimately, Church explained, "our goal is to make a cold-resistant elephant, but it is going to look and behave like a mammoth." The purpose of this endeavor goes beyond merely bringing a mammoth-like creature into our modern world to demonstrate the awesome power of science as the company foresees the hypothetical animal as a way of both helping to stave off the extinction of Asian elephants, which are a threatened species, and also preserve the climate of the Arctic tundra. Their reasoning for the latter goal is that if that region of the world were once again populated by the massive pachyderms, the animals would naturally knock down trees and cause grasslands to emerge while also compacting the permafrost beneath them. Although Lamm and Church are optimistic about the project and hope to produce the first calves of this proverbial 'woolly mammoth 2.0' within about six years, experts are understandably skeptical about both the feasibility of the endeavor as well as whether or not it would actually be beneficial in fighting climate change. "The scale at which you?d have to do this experiment is enormous.," explained evolutionary biologist Dr Victoria Herridge, "you are talking about hundreds of thousands of mammoths which each take 22 months to gestate and 30 years to grow to maturity." And, should Colossal manage to pull that off, ecologists say, unleashing a massive herd of the creatures into the Arctic tundra could wind up causing more damage to the region rather than saving it." My own idea is to have a fast food restaurant chain named, "Woolly's!" The burgers would be comprised of vat grown woolly mammoth meat, and of course the company mascot would be an adorable cartoon version of a baby woolly mammoth. I would have a mechanical Disney style animatronic baby woolly mammoth in every restaurant, that would be programmed to interact with people. I just need some major start-up capital! Lol https://www.coasttocoastam.com/article/new-bioscience-company-raises-15-million-to-revive-woolly-mammoth/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 21:43:28 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 14:43:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Texas_Embalmer_Shares_Nightmare_COVID_Experience?= =?utf-8?q?s=3A_=E2=80=98Unlike_Anything_I=E2=80=99ve_Seen_Before?= =?utf-8?b?4oCZ?= Message-ID: A deeply moving account of the frustrations and horrors embalmers are facing in the age of Covid... "Despite the fact that I specialize in postmortem reconstruction ? accidents, trauma, stuff like that ? when the bodies are that swollen, there is very little I can do to eliminate that. And for a lot of these families, it?s just a tremendous shock. I?ve had husbands and wives die within days of each other. I?ve seen entire families wiped out. It?s *horrible*. With this current surge from [the delta variant], I notice we?re not getting bodies out of the nursing homes like we were the last time, most likely due to the fact that most of these old nursing home patients have been vaccinated. Right now the bodies I?m seeing are ranging from the late 20s to the elderly. We?ve had quite a few bodies in their mid-to-late 30s, 40s, 50s. I?ve also noticed that with delta, for the most part, these people were not spending nearly as much time in the ICU before they die. Sadly, that?s been to our benefit because they?re not in as bad of a condition as they were with the last surge. We?re just doing what we can, but we?re constantly worried about our own safety while working. At my facility, we?re wearing N95 masks because the filtration is so much better and it makes it a good positive seal on your face. I?ve got a mask with a respirator that uses the P100 multivapor cartridges. Aside from that, we?re wearing our standard personal protective equipment and taking extra precautions ? keep our faces covered and doing whatever we can to keep our risks as low as we possibly can. As far as handling the body goes, if you roll the body, if you put pressure on the chest, there?s the chance of expelling air from the lungs. After we get done embalming a body, we pack the nasal passages and everything else and once it?s bathed well and preserved well, to me, it?s as safe as it can possibly be and should not pose a risk to the families or anyone else who comes in contact with it. I really wish we were embalming them all, but we just don?t have the manpower right now. As far as licensed embalmers, there?s a definitely a big shortage, especially down here in Texas. Seeing so many of these people who have passed away who shouldn?t have died in the first place and the husbands and wives passing within days of each other ? on top of just the mass volume ? is a lot to deal with. Although we try to distance ourselves professionally as much as possible while doing our jobs, it wears on us. There are a lot of us that definitely have some PTSD ? or just traumatic stress. It?s really, really hard." https://www.huffpost.com/entry/texas-covid-embalmers-patrick-huey_n_612feb0be4b0aac9c012139c?utm_ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Sep 15 11:20:50 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 04:20:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Report=3A_Gen=2E_Milley_held_top-secret_meeting_?= =?utf-8?q?to_block_Trump=E2=80=99s_nuke_access=3B_told_staff_to_di?= =?utf-8?q?sobey_all_but_his_orders?= In-Reply-To: References: <006f01d7a9e8$040bfbc0$0c23f340$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003101d7aa23$be1a4950$3a4edbf0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Grigg via extropy-chat ? >>?When Journalists do this kinda thing, they better have a really tall pile of evidence. >>?John, which do you believe it will be?" >?I strongly suspect that due to Trump's well known instability towards the end, and due to Biden being in the White House, that the general will get away with what he did. John, if this story is true and Milley even utters the word ?Trump? at his court martial, he will be found guilty. There is no legal path where a general can decide the civilian command is crazy and go around it. Otherwise any general could go around any civilian commander in chief with the same argument. Then the top general becomes the defacto head of the military. That isn?t legal. I suspect the story was planted, but Gen. Milley better hope so. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 13:17:41 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 08:17:41 -0500 Subject: [ExI] quote for the day Message-ID: bill w from Quora: Could it be that, in addition to the question of "what kind of Earth we leave to our children" we should also ask "what kind of children we leave to our own Earth"? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 18:31:03 2021 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 12:31:03 -0600 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Report=3A_Gen=2E_Milley_held_top-secret_meeting_?= =?utf-8?q?to_block_Trump=E2=80=99s_nuke_access=3B_told_staff_to_di?= =?utf-8?q?sobey_all_but_his_orders?= In-Reply-To: <003101d7aa23$be1a4950$3a4edbf0$@rainier66.com> References: <006f01d7a9e8$040bfbc0$0c23f340$@rainier66.com> <003101d7aa23$be1a4950$3a4edbf0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: > I recommend everyone here read the novel, "The Profession," by the award winning Steven Pressfield. Well, that just cost me 11 bucks. Thank you. The amazon kindle sample of the first chapter and a half sucked me right in. On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 5:23 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *John Grigg via extropy-chat > *?* > > >>?When Journalists do this kinda thing, they better have a really tall > pile of evidence. > > >>?John, which do you believe it will be?" > > >?I strongly suspect that due to Trump's well known instability towards > the end, and due to Biden being in the White House, that the general will > get away with what he did. > > John, if this story is true and Milley even utters the word ?Trump? at his > court martial, he will be found guilty. There is no legal path where a > general can decide the civilian command is crazy and go around it. > Otherwise any general could go around any civilian commander in chief with > the same argument. Then the top general becomes the defacto head of the > military. That isn?t legal. > > I suspect the story was planted, but Gen. Milley better hope so. > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Wed Sep 15 23:25:58 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 16:25:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] New Bioscience Company Raises $15 Million to Revive Woolly Mammoth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5811ade3-8d8a-f3bb-4aee-3fe8dd70cab2@pobox.com> > [...] if that region of the world > were once again populated by the massive pachyderms, the animals would > naturally knock down trees [...] Like wooly bullies. > My own idea is to have a fast food restaurant chain named, "Woolly's!" > The burgers would be comprised of vat grown woolly mammoth meat, [...] You lost me at 'comprised of'. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 19:02:10 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:02:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Report=3A_Gen=2E_Milley_held_top-secret_meeting_?= =?utf-8?q?to_block_Trump=E2=80=99s_nuke_access=3B_told_staff_to_di?= =?utf-8?q?sobey_all_but_his_orders?= In-Reply-To: References: <006f01d7a9e8$040bfbc0$0c23f340$@rainier66.com> <003101d7aa23$be1a4950$3a4edbf0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Darin Sunley wrote: "Well, that just cost me 11 bucks. Thank you. The amazon kindle sample of the first chapter and a half sucked me right in." Eleven dollars well spent! : ) Steven Pressfield is currently considered one of America's greatest writers, and his seminal work, "Gates of Fire," about the Spartans, is required reading at the military academies. It is a beautiful novel that grants humanity to an ancient people that often get seen as almost superhuman comic book characters. After you are done reading "The Profession," I recommend you get it. John On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 11:35 AM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > I recommend everyone here read the novel, "The Profession," by the > award winning Steven Pressfield. > > Well, that just cost me 11 bucks. Thank you. > > The amazon kindle sample of the first chapter and a half sucked me right > in. > > On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 5:23 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf >> Of *John Grigg via extropy-chat >> *?* >> >> >>?When Journalists do this kinda thing, they better have a really tall >> pile of evidence. >> >> >>?John, which do you believe it will be?" >> >> >?I strongly suspect that due to Trump's well known instability towards >> the end, and due to Biden being in the White House, that the general will >> get away with what he did. >> >> John, if this story is true and Milley even utters the word ?Trump? at >> his court martial, he will be found guilty. There is no legal path where a >> general can decide the civilian command is crazy and go around it. >> Otherwise any general could go around any civilian commander in chief with >> the same argument. Then the top general becomes the defacto head of the >> military. That isn?t legal. >> >> I suspect the story was planted, but Gen. Milley better hope so. >> >> spike >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Sep 16 04:13:13 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 21:13:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Report=3A_Gen=2E_Milley_held_top-secret_meeting_?= =?utf-8?q?to_block_Trump=E2=80=99s_nuke_access=3B_told_staff_to_di?= =?utf-8?q?sobey_all_but_his_orders?= In-Reply-To: References: <006f01d7a9e8$040bfbc0$0c23f340$@rainier66.com> <003101d7aa23$be1a4950$3a4edbf0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002e01d7aab1$2b52d0e0$81f872a0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Grigg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Report: Gen. Milley held top-secret meeting to block Trump?s nuke access; told staff to disobey all but his orders Darin Sunley wrote: >>?"Well, that just cost me 11 bucks. Thank you. ? >?Eleven dollars well spent! : ) ?John John watch the non-fiction version of this story unfold. With Gen. Milley?s action and the lack of response to it, the USA just signaled that it will do nothing if China invades Taiwan. OK then. What if they do? What if China accepts the invitation, invades Taiwan and restricts the west?s access to the stuff Taiwan makes. Do we really need it? Can we find alternative ways to get computer chips and such? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Thu Sep 16 04:28:33 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 21:28:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Report=3A_Gen=2E_Milley_held_top-secret_meeting_?= =?utf-8?q?to_block_Trump=E2=80=99s_nuke_access=3B_told_staff_to_disobey_a?= =?utf-8?q?ll_but_his_orders?= In-Reply-To: References: <006f01d7a9e8$040bfbc0$0c23f340$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On 2021-9-15 13:23, John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote: > The general [in the novel] is the quality of man Trump could only dream of being. > Handsome, highly intelligent and shrewd, worldly wise, extremely > charismatic, loyal to one woman, and adored by much of the public, he > wins by a landslide and then goes to work remaking the nation in his image. Why would Trump dream of being loyal to one woman? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From bronto at pobox.com Thu Sep 16 04:34:08 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 21:34:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Report=3A_Gen=2E_Milley_held_top-secret_meeting_?= =?utf-8?q?to_block_Trump=E2=80=99s_nuke_access=3B_told_staff_to_disobey_a?= =?utf-8?q?ll_but_his_orders?= In-Reply-To: <002e01d7aab1$2b52d0e0$81f872a0$@rainier66.com> References: <006f01d7a9e8$040bfbc0$0c23f340$@rainier66.com> <003101d7aa23$be1a4950$3a4edbf0$@rainier66.com> <002e01d7aab1$2b52d0e0$81f872a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <0834f4b0-2101-dca5-fc60-a7ea7aae7215@pobox.com> On 2021-9-15 21:13, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > John watch the non-fiction version of this story unfold.? With Gen. > Milley?s action and the lack of response to it, the USA just signaled > that it will do nothing if China invades Taiwan. That's a bit of a reach, from "General prevents a bonkers President from (potentially) starting a war out of pique (and gets away with it)" to "Pentagon will never lift a finger against China". -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 19:43:03 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:43:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Report=3A_Gen=2E_Milley_held_top-secret_meeting_?= =?utf-8?q?to_block_Trump=E2=80=99s_nuke_access=3B_told_staff_to_di?= =?utf-8?q?sobey_all_but_his_orders?= In-Reply-To: References: <006f01d7a9e8$040bfbc0$0c23f340$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Anton Sherwood wrote: "Why would Trump dream of being loyal to one woman?" What he would dream of, is the public adulation/respect that comes from being *seen* as a man/president loyal to only one woman. John On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 9:31 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2021-9-15 13:23, John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote: > > The general [in the novel] is the quality of man Trump could only dream > of being. > > Handsome, highly intelligent and shrewd, worldly wise, extremely > > charismatic, loyal to one woman, and adored by much of the public, he > > wins by a landslide and then goes to work remaking the nation in his > image. > > Why would Trump dream of being loyal to one woman? > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Thu Sep 16 04:57:22 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 21:57:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Report=3A_Gen=2E_Milley_held_top-secret_meeting_?= =?utf-8?q?to_block_Trump=E2=80=99s_nuke_access=3B_told_staff_to_disobey_a?= =?utf-8?q?ll_but_his_orders?= In-Reply-To: References: <006f01d7a9e8$040bfbc0$0c23f340$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On 2021-9-16 12:43, John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote: > Anton Sherwood wrote: > "Why would Trump dream of being loyal to one woman?" He sure did. > What he would dream of, is the public adulation/respect that comes from > being *seen* as a man/president loyal to only one woman. And he fails in this for one of two reasons: he never thought of trying to fake it, or, further upstream, he does not get that the People admire such loyalty. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 22:08:07 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 15:08:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Report=3A_Gen=2E_Milley_held_top-secret_meeting_?= =?utf-8?q?to_block_Trump=E2=80=99s_nuke_access=3B_told_staff_to_di?= =?utf-8?q?sobey_all_but_his_orders?= In-Reply-To: References: <006f01d7a9e8$040bfbc0$0c23f340$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike wrote: "John watch the non-fiction version of this story unfold. With Gen. Milley?s action and the lack of response to it, the USA just signaled that it will do nothing if China invades Taiwan." I disagree with your conclusion. The U.S. has not signaled that it will do nothing if China invades Taiwan. But what we have signaled is weakness/sloppiness, which can only encourage the CCP. I suspect it will be a real dogfight in Washington as Biden's administration squares off against those who want to see Milley court martialed, or at the very least, fired. The end result will be a message to future generations of senior ranking American military officers. The long range consequences here could be staggering! I don't want us becoming like the banana republics of the world... "OK then. What if they do? What if China accepts the invitation, invades Taiwan and restricts the west?s access to the stuff Taiwan makes. Do we really need it? Can we find alternative ways to get computer chips and such?" I just don't see China winning, within the near future, anyway. And in fact, senior ranking CCP generals are begging Jinping not to prematurely start a war, before they are fully ready. But Jinping wants the history books to state that he was the CCP leader who conquered Taiwan, and so his ego is in the way of his nation's potential victory. But there is the argument that because America got obsessed with fighting global boogeymen, that we did not see the threat of China early enough, and take the appropriate measures. And in many ways, we ourselves built this Frankenstein Monster... The U.S. Navy is seen now as too small and in need of upgrading, powerful next gen lasers (not the underpowered current ones on our vessels) and rail guns need to be mounted on our warships, an in depth missile/anti-missile coordinated system needs to be built to protect American/ally bases close to China, and large numbers army and air force servicemen need to be forward deployed to Southeast Asian nations, to be close to the fight. On top of that, Taiwan needs to radically change their defense policy, which they now recognize, belatedly. And so they are moving away from conventional approaches to great power land war, and instead embracing guerilla warfare training, drones, inhome anti-ship and anti-air missiles, inhome submarines, and scores of small attack patrol boats that can hit and run against enemy transport ships. The new focus will make the Taiwanese military a hard target to hit & defeat, and frustrating for a big conventional enemy like China to fight. And I hope the rumors are true that Taiwan has a nuclear deterrent, because they may need it, should the CCP consider nuclear blackmail. But the problem is that these improvements will take time to do, perhaps five to ten years in some cases, and so there is a window of vulnerability for the U.S. and her allies. And so I suspect CCP strategists think that they should either invade Taiwan soon, within the next 2-3 years, to take advantage of our lack of preparation, or they should wait two or three decades, when in many areas they will have probably caught up to America in terms of technology and operational capacity. I suspect Jinping will choose the former option. I believe that if our warships can survive the initial massive barrages of anti-ship missiles, that an invasion by China would fail. Despite our current weaknesses, our technological advantage, operational experience advantage, deadly submarine advantage, and strong allies like Japan, would ultimately overwhelm China. I wish I could say such a defeat would cause the CCP to be overturned by their people, but I just don't see it happening. But as Yee Quan, the former leader of Singapore stated, "China may even be defeated by America and her allies three or four times over the years as they try to conquer Taiwan, but ultimately, they will win, because they are relentless on the matter and will only get stronger as time goes on." Despite the economic concerns and global house of cards we inhabit, if the U.S. does not defend Taiwan successfully, the world will view American economic and military hegemony as being in severe decline, and see China as the superpower to be followed. This schoolyard bully must not be allowed to win. And if the West is smart, we will build many more semiconductor plants away from Taiwan as soon as possible. I envision a western victory, but with many of the computer chip factories unfortunately having been destroyed due to the chaos of war. John On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 12:43 PM John Grigg wrote: > Anton Sherwood wrote: > "Why would Trump dream of being loyal to one woman?" > > What he would dream of, is the public adulation/respect that comes from > being *seen* as a man/president loyal to only one woman. > > John > > On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 9:31 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On 2021-9-15 13:23, John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote: >> > The general [in the novel] is the quality of man Trump could only dream >> of being. >> > Handsome, highly intelligent and shrewd, worldly wise, extremely >> > charismatic, loyal to one woman, and adored by much of the public, he >> > wins by a landslide and then goes to work remaking the nation in his >> image. >> >> Why would Trump dream of being loyal to one woman? >> >> -- >> *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 22:12:31 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 15:12:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] New Bioscience Company Raises $15 Million to Revive Woolly Mammoth In-Reply-To: <5811ade3-8d8a-f3bb-4aee-3fe8dd70cab2@pobox.com> References: <5811ade3-8d8a-f3bb-4aee-3fe8dd70cab2@pobox.com> Message-ID: Well, all burger patties are comprised of something! Lol But sometimes the contents are not so appealing... On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 4:29 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > [...] if that region of the world > > were once again populated by the massive pachyderms, the animals would > > naturally knock down trees [...] > > Like wooly bullies. > > > > My own idea is to have a fast food restaurant chain named, "Woolly's!" > > The burgers would be comprised of vat grown woolly mammoth meat, [...] > > You lost me at 'comprised of'. > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Thu Sep 16 08:13:02 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 01:13:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] New Bioscience Company Raises $15 Million to Revive Woolly Mammoth In-Reply-To: References: <5811ade3-8d8a-f3bb-4aee-3fe8dd70cab2@pobox.com> Message-ID: > > The burgers would be comprised of vat grown woolly mammoth meat, > [...] Anton: > You lost me at 'comprised of'. On 2021-9-16 15:12, John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote: > Well, all burger patties are comprised of something! You mean "composed". ?comprise? and ?compose? are roughly reciprocals, not synonyms. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 00:51:44 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 17:51:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] New Bioscience Company Raises $15 Million to Revive Woolly Mammoth In-Reply-To: References: <5811ade3-8d8a-f3bb-4aee-3fe8dd70cab2@pobox.com> Message-ID: Google says: "Although comprised of is an established standard for "*being composed or constituted of*," it is often liable to criticism and scrutiny. The correct version put forward by grammar guides is to use "composed of" or "comprises" such as "the cake is composed of flour and eggs" or "comprises flour and eggs." I see! Thank you for letting me know... John On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 1:17 AM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > The burgers would be comprised of vat grown woolly mammoth meat, > > [...] > > Anton: > > You lost me at 'comprised of'. > > On 2021-9-16 15:12, John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote: > > Well, all burger patties are comprised of something! > > You mean "composed". > ?comprise? and ?compose? are roughly reciprocals, not synonyms. > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 10:07:32 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 11:07:32 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Presidential Affairs Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Sept 2021 at 05:47, John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote: >> Anton Sherwood wrote: >> "Why would Trump dream of being loyal to one woman?" > > What he would dream of, is the public adulation/respect that comes from > being *seen* as a man/president loyal to only one woman. > John >_______________________________________________ Power doesn't work like that, John. The saying 'Power corrupts' has a lot of truth. Powerful men attract women and men seek power to get more women. (Trophy wives, affairs, etc.). See: Do a search for 'president sex affairs'. "I Can Resist Everything Except Temptation" Oscar Wilde. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Thu Sep 16 12:43:26 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 05:43:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Report=3A_Gen=2E_Milley_held_top-secret_meeting_?= =?utf-8?q?to_block_Trump=E2=80=99s_nuke_access=3B_told_staff_to_di?= =?utf-8?q?sobey_all_but_his_orders?= In-Reply-To: <0834f4b0-2101-dca5-fc60-a7ea7aae7215@pobox.com> References: <006f01d7a9e8$040bfbc0$0c23f340$@rainier66.com> <003101d7aa23$be1a4950$3a4edbf0$@rainier66.com> <002e01d7aab1$2b52d0e0$81f872a0$@rainier66.com> <0834f4b0-2101-dca5-fc60-a7ea7aae7215@pobox.com> Message-ID: <005601d7aaf8$7234e740$569eb5c0$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat >..Subject: Re: [ExI] Report: Gen. Milley held top-secret meeting to block Trump?s nuke access; told staff to disobey all but his orders On 2021-9-15 21:13, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >>... John watch the non-fiction version of this story unfold. With Gen. > Milley?s action and the lack of response to it, the USA just signaled > that it will do nothing if China invades Taiwan. >....That's a bit of a reach, from "General prevents a bonkers President from (potentially) starting a war out of pique (and gets away with it)" to "Pentagon will never lift a finger against China". -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org _______________________________________________ Anton it sends the signal that any general may decide if the POTUS is bonkers, then act according to whatever he wants to do. China will be emboldened. I predict they will act while during the term of the current POTUS. It is a bit of a reach to conclude that the Universal Code of Military Justice has only one exception for only one person. The legal system doesn't work that way. spike From sparge at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 13:20:31 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 09:20:31 -0400 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Report=3A_Gen=2E_Milley_held_top-secret_meeting_?= =?utf-8?q?to_block_Trump=E2=80=99s_nuke_access=3B_told_staff_to_di?= =?utf-8?q?sobey_all_but_his_orders?= In-Reply-To: <005601d7aaf8$7234e740$569eb5c0$@rainier66.com> References: <006f01d7a9e8$040bfbc0$0c23f340$@rainier66.com> <003101d7aa23$be1a4950$3a4edbf0$@rainier66.com> <002e01d7aab1$2b52d0e0$81f872a0$@rainier66.com> <0834f4b0-2101-dca5-fc60-a7ea7aae7215@pobox.com> <005601d7aaf8$7234e740$569eb5c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 8:46 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Anton it sends the signal that any general may decide if the POTUS is > bonkers, then act according to whatever he wants to do. China will be > emboldened. I predict they will act while during the term of the current > POTUS. > We don't know at this point if (1) the story is true, (2) there's sufficient evidence to convict, or (3) the administration is willing to take action. Even if the answers are yes, yes, and no, the likely takeaway is that people agreed with Milley's assessment. The military is big on following orders, but everyone given an order has the potential to disobey an order that they think is wrong or illegal. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 13:26:27 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 09:26:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] New Bioscience Company Raises $15 Million to Revive Woolly Mammoth In-Reply-To: References: <5811ade3-8d8a-f3bb-4aee-3fe8dd70cab2@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 4:16 AM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > You mean "composed". > ?comprise? and ?compose? are roughly reciprocals, not synonyms. > Let's not be grammar nazis. We all knew what John meant. *Comprised of is an expression in English that means "composed of" or "constituted by". The Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary, Collins English Dictionary and the Oxford Dictionaries regard the form comprised of as standard English usage.* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprised_of -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 14:29:19 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 07:29:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] New Bioscience Company Raises $15 Million to Revive Woolly Mammoth In-Reply-To: References: <5811ade3-8d8a-f3bb-4aee-3fe8dd70cab2@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 6:31 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Let's not be grammar nazis. > No going, "Heil Webster"? :P > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 14:42:55 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 10:42:55 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Join Today- BrainHealth Project In-Reply-To: <93364539-d9cc-4449-8c7d-4ced609e395c@atl1s07mta2346.xt.local> References: <93364539-d9cc-4449-8c7d-4ced609e395c@atl1s07mta2346.xt.local> Message-ID: This looks interesting. I signed up but haven't done the initial evaluation yet. -Dave ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Alzheimer's Prevention Registry Date: Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 8:14 AM Subject: Join Today- BrainHealth Project To: *Hi, you are receiving this email because you signed up for the Alzheimer's Prevention Registry. If you no longer wish to hear from us, unsubscribe here .* *Having trouble viewing images or text? To view this email as a web page, click here .* [image: Alzheimer's Prevention Registry Logo] Study Opportunity [image: Share] Share [image: Tweet] Tweet [image: Forward] Forward David, In keeping with our mission to accelerate enrollment into Alzheimer?s research studies, here is some information about a study that is looking for participants. *If this study is not a good fit for you, please consider sharing with friends and family.* Now Enrolling: The BrainHealth Project ? Online University of Texas - Dallas researchers invite you to participate in The BrainHealth Project , a landmark scientific study that introduces a multi-dimensional understanding of brain health and explores our lifelong ability to impact its fitness, no matter the starting point. The BrainHealth Project is a study that will: - DEFINE brain health based on a modern, holistic understanding of the upward potential of the human mind. - MEASURE brain health with the novel, multi-faceted BrainHealth Index? that tracks progress toward personalized brain fitness goals. - ENHANCE/MAINTAIN/REGAIN brain health through proven trainings, self-paced activities and live coaching. UT-Dallas researchers are looking for people who are: - Generally healthy - 18+ years - Are interested in getting proactive about their brain?s health and learning strategies to strengthen its performance - Have access to the internet For a full description of the Brain Health Project, please visit our website. LEARN MORE Connect With Us [image: Facebook] You are receiving this email because you are subscribed to the Alzheimer's Prevention Registry list. Email Preferences | Find a Study | Contact Us Profile Center Alzheimer's Prevention Registry 901 E. Willetta Street Phoenix, AZ, 85006, United States -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 14:51:01 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 15:51:01 +0100 Subject: [ExI] New Bioscience Company Raises $15 Million to Revive Woolly Mammoth In-Reply-To: References: <5811ade3-8d8a-f3bb-4aee-3fe8dd70cab2@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Sept 2021 at 15:34, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 6:31 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> Let's not be grammar nazis. > > > No going, "Heil Webster"? :P > _______________________________________________ >From Merriam-Webster ------- Even if you despise comprised of and have made it your life's work to expunge it from the writing of others, chances are very good that you never approached the level of dedication exhibited by the Wikipedia editor who, over a period of years, deleted tens of thousands of uses of comprised of from that website (in addition to writing a 5,000 word explanatory article). It seems safe to say that few of us have this level of animus towards any particular use of a word. Many people see nothing wrong with comprised of, although they still might feel apprehensive about using it, given that there are others who so strongly object to its use. If you are one of these apprehensive writers of comprised of we can offer you the following words from our Dictionary of English Usage: Our advice to you is to realize that the disputed sense is established and standard, but nevertheless liable to criticism. If such criticism concerns you, you can probably avoid comprise by using compose, constitute, or make up, whichever fits your sentence best. ---------- :) BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 15:25:04 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 10:25:04 -0500 Subject: [ExI] cart before horse Message-ID: My physical therapist told me that he had bought a house with cash. Hmm. How rare is that? Given this credit economy, the idea of saving money before you buy is dead or dying except for a few. It seems to me that this benefits only the finance people. The finance people loan money for content - movies, tv, that glorifies having the right stuff, like a T shirt with a big swoosh, advertising not only that the person greatly overpaid for the shirt, but that he is a person with not much financial sense, and is likely to think it impresses women, who in turn buy highly overpriced makeup which they think attracts men, those simple creatures. I read where some young South American women spend 1/3 of their income on beauty products. So sad. Pathetic even. The gist of this is that the people are urged to act like children, fond of immediate fulfillment and flashy and colorful things. In short, they are milking us and we are glad to help them, actually advertising our addiction to brand names. Yeah, I realize that I am not saying anything new here. It just really irks me to see so much irrationality and suffering later in life when one should be able to relax and not worry about money. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 16:34:56 2021 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:34:56 -0400 Subject: [ExI] New Bioscience Company Raises $15 Million to Revive Woolly Mammoth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <03A914AD-414C-459E-882D-5C53F0CA8B82@gmail.com> As everyone else has already said ?comprised of? is perfectly fine. It?s been used a long time, everyone knows what it means, and it is found in legitimate dictionaries everywhere. English has a long tradition of verb+preposition meaning something different than simply the verb. Example: Break Outbreak Break out Break in Break up Break down Etc. Breaking up with your boyfriend and breaking him are not even nearly the same, and compare that to breaking in or breaking out with him? So yes, all burgers are ?comprised of? something. And besides that, why can?t we speak casually on an email list? Do we need to be formal and stuffy? SR Ballard > On Sep 16, 2021, at 4:16 AM, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? >> >> > The burgers would be comprised of vat grown woolly mammoth meat, >> [...] > > Anton: >> You lost me at 'comprised of'. > > On 2021-9-16 15:12, John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote: > > Well, all burger patties are comprised of something! > > You mean "composed". > ?comprise? and ?compose? are roughly reciprocals, not synonyms. > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From ben at zaiboc.net Thu Sep 16 17:27:07 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 18:27:07 +0100 Subject: [ExI] New Bioscience Company Raises $15 Million to Revive Woolly Mammoth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 16/09/2021 08:05, Anton Sherwood wrote: > You lost me at 'comprised of'. I feel your pain. The english language is being slowly but relentlessly slaughtered. Ben From mbb386 at main.nc.us Thu Sep 16 18:30:05 2021 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 14:30:05 -0400 Subject: [ExI] cart before horse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, September 16, 2021 11:25, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > My physical therapist told me that he had bought a house with cash. Hmm. > How rare is that? Given this credit economy, the idea of saving money > before you buy is dead or dying except for a few. > My neighbor bought a new car with cash. The car dealership had a very hard time trying to figure out how to write up the sale! She said it was quite funny. They didn't seem to have the correct forms for a cash sale. The salesman kept talking about interest rates... and how their loan would be better than whatever loan he assumed she was getting elsewhere. Regards, MB From bronto at pobox.com Thu Sep 16 18:48:22 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 11:48:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] New Bioscience Company Raises $15 Million to Revive Woolly Mammoth In-Reply-To: References: <5811ade3-8d8a-f3bb-4aee-3fe8dd70cab2@pobox.com> Message-ID: <3ecd443d-5bda-f9c6-0f7d-020bb50cdd0e@pobox.com> > On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 4:16 AM Anton Sherwood wrote: > You mean "composed". > ?comprise? and ?compose? are roughly reciprocals, not synonyms. On 2021-9-16 06:26, Dave Sill via extropy-chat wrote: > Let's not be grammar?nazis. We all knew what John meant. I wrote the above not because John used the word (I'll usually let that go) but because he defended that usage by someone else. Yes, by all means let's use any old word that more or less resembles what we mean, everyone will know what we mean. We may as well say "give" when we mean "take", because context will prevent any confusion, right? Until there's a context in which two different meanings will fit, and we can't use words to distinguish between them because, hey, a dictionary says it's just fine to use them in either sense. Wouldn't want to be stuffy or anything. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From sparge at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 18:49:32 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 14:49:32 -0400 Subject: [ExI] cart before horse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 2:39 PM MB via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > My neighbor bought a new car with cash. > Assuming we're talking about actual paper currency, carrying large amounts is very dangerous due to the practice of Civil Asset Forfeiture. Cops can take and keep it on the grounds that they think it was obtained illegally. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 19:00:47 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 15:00:47 -0400 Subject: [ExI] New Bioscience Company Raises $15 Million to Revive Woolly Mammoth In-Reply-To: <3ecd443d-5bda-f9c6-0f7d-020bb50cdd0e@pobox.com> References: <5811ade3-8d8a-f3bb-4aee-3fe8dd70cab2@pobox.com> <3ecd443d-5bda-f9c6-0f7d-020bb50cdd0e@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 2:51 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Yes, by all means let's use any old word that more or less resembles > what we mean, everyone will know what we mean. What part of the following is unclear? "The Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary, Collins English Dictionary and the Oxford Dictionaries regard the form *comprised of* as standard English usage." We may as well say > "give" when we mean "take", because context will prevent any confusion, > right? Until there's a context in which two different meanings will > fit, and we can't use words to distinguish between them because, hey, a > dictionary says it's just fine to use them in either sense. Wouldn't > want to be stuffy or anything. > There's ample room for ambiguity in proper English. Assuming that everyone is using the same dictionary that you're using is a good way to introduce it. Usage changes over time. Railing against it is silly and futile. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbb386 at main.nc.us Thu Sep 16 19:03:45 2021 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 15:03:45 -0400 Subject: [ExI] cart before horse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0a5b3af0b595a529c9ee10ba9181b6db.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> On Thu, September 16, 2021 14:49, Dave Sill via extropy-chat wrote: > On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 2:39 PM MB via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> My neighbor bought a new car with cash. >> > > Assuming we're talking about actual paper currency, carrying large amounts > is very dangerous due to the practice of Civil Asset Forfeiture. Cops can > take and keep it on the grounds that they think it was obtained illegally. > > Indeed, this is true. I'm pretty sure neighbor paid by personal check. I would not pay with folding green, it's too risky, as you say. Perhaps I misunderstood the original post? Most people arrange big loans for large expenditures, hardly anyone saves up in advance. Pity. Some years back I knew a doctor who put a brand new Ford Expedition on his credit card - his other car had fallen apart during vacation and he was disgusted, didn't want to see it again. Funny. Dealership there had difficulties with that as well. :D Regards, MB From atymes at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 19:08:41 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:08:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] cart before horse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 11:58 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 2:39 PM MB via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> My neighbor bought a new car with cash. >> > > Assuming we're talking about actual paper currency, carrying large amounts > is very dangerous due to the practice of Civil Asset Forfeiture. Cops can > take and keep it on the grounds that they think it was obtained illegally. > Also due to the potential of getting robbed by those who aren't even pretending, in any sense, to be law enforcement. More likely, it was a check or similar. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 19:19:32 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 15:19:32 -0400 Subject: [ExI] cart before horse In-Reply-To: <0a5b3af0b595a529c9ee10ba9181b6db.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> References: <0a5b3af0b595a529c9ee10ba9181b6db.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 3:13 PM MB via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Most people arrange big loans for large expenditures, hardly anyone saves > up in advance. Pity. > The government sets a bad example. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Thu Sep 16 19:59:24 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:59:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] New Bioscience Company Raises $15 Million to Revive Woolly Mammoth In-Reply-To: References: <5811ade3-8d8a-f3bb-4aee-3fe8dd70cab2@pobox.com> <3ecd443d-5bda-f9c6-0f7d-020bb50cdd0e@pobox.com> Message-ID: > On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 2:51 PM Anton Sherwood wrote: > Yes, by all means let's use any old word that more or less resembles > what we mean, everyone will know what we mean. On 2021-9-16 12:00, Dave Sill via extropy-chat wrote: > What part of the?following is unclear? > > "The Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary, Collins English Dictionary > and the Oxford Dictionaries regard the form /comprised of/ as standard > English usage." Does that mean that preferring more conservative usages, when they preserve useful distinctions, is NOT allowable? > There's ample room for ambiguity in proper English. Assuming that > everyone is using the same dictionary that you're?using is a good way to > introduce it. Hence, a careful writer will not rely only on the most liberal dictionaries when choosing words. What ambiguity do I introduce by refusing to use 'comprise' as a synonym for 'compose'? > Usage changes over time. Railing against it is silly and futile. I know it's futile to seek to change how the masses speak and write; my remarks are intended for the minority who aspire to more precision. "Read liberally, write conservatively," to paraphrase a computing proverb. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 19:59:34 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 14:59:34 -0500 Subject: [ExI] cart before horse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Why isn't that law unconstitutional? It assumes that a person is guilty of drug dealing with no proof but the money. bill w On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 1:58 PM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 2:39 PM MB via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> My neighbor bought a new car with cash. >> > > Assuming we're talking about actual paper currency, carrying large amounts > is very dangerous due to the practice of Civil Asset Forfeiture. Cops can > take and keep it on the grounds that they think it was obtained illegally. > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 20:00:34 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 15:00:34 -0500 Subject: [ExI] cart before horse In-Reply-To: <0a5b3af0b595a529c9ee10ba9181b6db.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> References: <0a5b3af0b595a529c9ee10ba9181b6db.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: I tried to buy a car with Visa - no deal.. They said that Visa would take up to 5% of the sale price. bill w On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 2:13 PM MB via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Thu, September 16, 2021 14:49, Dave Sill via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 2:39 PM MB via extropy-chat < > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > >> > >> My neighbor bought a new car with cash. > >> > > > > Assuming we're talking about actual paper currency, carrying large > amounts > > is very dangerous due to the practice of Civil Asset Forfeiture. Cops can > > take and keep it on the grounds that they think it was obtained > illegally. > > > > > > Indeed, this is true. I'm pretty sure neighbor paid by personal check. I > would not pay with folding green, it's too risky, as you say. > > Perhaps I misunderstood the original post? Most people arrange big loans > for large expenditures, hardly anyone saves up in advance. Pity. > > Some years back I knew a doctor who put a brand new Ford Expedition on his > credit card - his other car had fallen apart during vacation and he was > disgusted, didn't want to see it again. Funny. Dealership there had > difficulties with that as well. :D > > Regards, > MB > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 20:04:41 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 15:04:41 -0500 Subject: [ExI] New Bioscience Company Raises $15 Million to Revive Woolly Mammoth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 12:30 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 16/09/2021 08:05, Anton Sherwood wrote: > > You lost me at 'comprised of'. > > I feel your pain. > > The english language is being slowly but relentlessly slaughtered. > > Ben > Actually you people are pretty damned good at the language, which I did not expect from a bunch of techies. Playing the Grammar Gestapo is a habit of mine (Mama and English teacher and me with a B.A. in it) and only twice since I have been around have I corrected someone's spelling- privately, of course. I suspect that complaining about 'comprise' was a bit of a joke. bill w > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 20:10:45 2021 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 14:10:45 -0600 Subject: [ExI] cart before horse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I bought a iPod touch from an Apple store with a fat stack of $20s once. That was fun. On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 12:58 PM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 2:39 PM MB via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> My neighbor bought a new car with cash. >> > > Assuming we're talking about actual paper currency, carrying large amounts > is very dangerous due to the practice of Civil Asset Forfeiture. Cops can > take and keep it on the grounds that they think it was obtained illegally. > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 20:12:41 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 15:12:41 -0500 Subject: [ExI] New Bioscience Company Raises $15 Million to Revive Woolly Mammoth In-Reply-To: References: <5811ade3-8d8a-f3bb-4aee-3fe8dd70cab2@pobox.com> <3ecd443d-5bda-f9c6-0f7d-020bb50cdd0e@pobox.com> Message-ID: I love precision in language. Far too many misunderstandings in communication. Now, if you will join me in helping to stamp out 'steep learning curve' as meaning a difficult task, when in fact it means the opposite, I will die happy. bill w On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 3:03 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 2:51 PM Anton Sherwood wrote: > > Yes, by all means let's use any old word that more or less resembles > > what we mean, everyone will know what we mean. > > On 2021-9-16 12:00, Dave Sill via extropy-chat wrote: > > What part of the following is unclear? > > > > "The Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary, Collins English Dictionary > > and the Oxford Dictionaries regard the form /comprised of/ as standard > > English usage." > > Does that mean that preferring more conservative usages, when they > preserve useful distinctions, is NOT allowable? > > > There's ample room for ambiguity in proper English. Assuming that > > everyone is using the same dictionary that you're using is a good way to > > introduce it. > > Hence, a careful writer will not rely only on the most liberal > dictionaries when choosing words. > > What ambiguity do I introduce by refusing to use 'comprise' as a synonym > for 'compose'? > > > Usage changes over time. Railing against it is silly and futile. > > I know it's futile to seek to change how the masses speak and write; my > remarks are intended for the minority who aspire to more precision. > > "Read liberally, write conservatively," to paraphrase a computing proverb. > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lostmyelectron at protonmail.com Thu Sep 16 20:24:47 2021 From: lostmyelectron at protonmail.com (Gabe Waggoner) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 20:24:47 +0000 Subject: [ExI] New Bioscience Company Raises $15 Million to Revive Woolly Mammoth In-Reply-To: References: <5811ade3-8d8a-f3bb-4aee-3fe8dd70cab2@pobox.com> <3ecd443d-5bda-f9c6-0f7d-020bb50cdd0e@pobox.com> Message-ID: >> Usage changes over time. Railing against it is silly and futile. > > I know it's futile to seek to change how the masses speak and write; my > > remarks are intended for the minority who aspire to more precision. > > "Read liberally, write conservatively," to paraphrase a computing proverb. > > --------------------------------------------------------------- One of my favorite quotes from Bryan Garner, who wrote the grammar chapter in The Chicago Manual of Style: "In any age, careful users of language will make distinctions; careless users will blur them." Dictionaries are descriptive (showing how people tend to use language), which is one reason they're constantly changing?and why you can find "irregardless" and other such nonstandard forms in them, whereas usage manuals are prescriptive (analyzing the correctness or lack of same). Garner also wrote Garner's Modern English Usage, a resource I've relied on for years, though I have a love?hate relationship with the man. As an editor, I always change "comprised of" to "consists of" or the like. The whole comprises the parts, and the parts constitute, compose, or make up the whole. I learned at an editing seminar years ago that the etymology of the word comprise makes the passive-voice use illogical (com, together, and prise, to take up). Also, the French verb comprendre, which usually means "to understand," also can mean "to include, to consist of, to comprise." Garner has a whole page devoted to the issue. The same resigned annoyance overtakes me when I see science writers use "hone in" instead of the correct "home in" (like a homing pigeon)?especially when writers try to justify "hone in" with some half-baked logic about how they're trying to "sharpen their meaning." Of course, language shifts and standards evolve. But that brings me back to the Garner quote. I'm sure many things in grammar and usage that feel completely fine to me were once considered horrible violations. Gabe Gabe Waggoner, MS, ELS Science Writer?Editor 7318 Edmonston Rd. College Park, MD 20740-3018 www.nasw.org/users/rgwaggoner/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 20:28:19 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 13:28:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] cart before horse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It is...kind of. Not too long ago, in Timbs vs. Indiana, the Supreme Court voted unanimously to at least start putting limits on disproportionate seizures. Also, the specific objection you're thinking of is closer to perjury: that they could swear in court that there was a reasonable suspicion you obtained the money illegally, when you can show that no such reasonable suspicion exists from merely carrying large amounts of money to a car dealership. On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 1:11 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Why isn't that law unconstitutional? It assumes that a person is guilty > of drug dealing with no proof but the money. bill w > > On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 1:58 PM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 2:39 PM MB via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> My neighbor bought a new car with cash. >>> >> >> Assuming we're talking about actual paper currency, carrying large >> amounts is very dangerous due to the practice of Civil Asset Forfeiture. >> Cops can take and keep it on the grounds that they think it was obtained >> illegally. >> >> -Dave >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbb386 at main.nc.us Thu Sep 16 21:23:41 2021 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 17:23:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] New Bioscience Company Raises $15 Million to Revive Woolly Mammoth In-Reply-To: References: <5811ade3-8d8a-f3bb-4aee-3fe8dd70cab2@pobox.com> <3ecd443d-5bda-f9c6-0f7d-020bb50cdd0e@pobox.com> Message-ID: <2941de64856f9e012fdde7f00a604dd2.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> On Thu, September 16, 2021 16:12, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > Now, if you will join me in helping to stamp out 'steep learning curve' as > meaning a difficult task, when in fact it means the opposite, I will die > happy. bill w > Yes!! Most folks simply have no idea how to read the graph. Sigh. They see the curve and think, "steep hill climb". Nobody reads either axis. :( Regards, MB From ben at zaiboc.net Thu Sep 16 21:37:58 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 22:37:58 +0100 Subject: [ExI] New Bioscience Company Raises $15 Million to Revive Woolly Mammoth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 16/09/2021 19:50, Adrian Tymes wrote: > On Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 6:31 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat > > wrote: > > Let's not be grammar?nazis. > > > No going, "Heil Webster"? :P You mean "Heil Johnson". Webster was where it all started to go terribly wrong. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Thu Sep 16 21:55:38 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 22:55:38 +0100 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 216, Issue 27 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 16/09/2021 19:50, Anton Sherwood wrote: >> On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 4:16 AM Anton Sherwood wrote: >> ??? You mean "composed". >> ??? ?comprise? and ?compose? are roughly reciprocals, not synonyms. > > On 2021-9-16 06:26, Dave Sill via extropy-chat wrote: >> Let's not be grammar?nazis. We all knew what John meant. > > I wrote the above not because John used the word (I'll usually let > that go) but because he defended that usage by someone else. > > Yes, by all means let's use any old word that more or less resembles > what we mean, everyone will know what we mean.? We may as well say > "give" when we mean "take", because context will prevent any > confusion, right?? Until there's a context in which two different > meanings will fit, and we can't use words to distinguish between them > because, hey, a dictionary says it's just fine to use them in either > sense.? Wouldn't want to be stuffy or anything. To me, the point here is encapsulated by Anton's comment "you lost me at...". I sympathise with that. Sloppy grammar betrays sloppy thinking, and why waste your time on a sloppy thinker? Bad grammar (and spelling, but that's another matter...) puts me off, and I'm reluctant to spend time reading something written by someone who seems semi-literate. Unless there's a compelling reason to read on (John C Clark being a case in point), I often don't. I'm not a grammar nazi, quite the opposite, I'm glad when people help me decide whether to spend time reading what they write or not. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 22:03:40 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 17:03:40 -0500 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 216, Issue 27 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ?comprise? and ?compose? are roughly reciprocals, not synonyms. Wrong - They are synonyms I am not sure what a reciprocal of compose or comprise would be. bill w On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 4:58 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 16/09/2021 19:50, Anton Sherwood wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 4:16 AM Anton Sherwood wrote: > You mean "composed". > ?comprise? and ?compose? are roughly reciprocals, not synonyms. > > > On 2021-9-16 06:26, Dave Sill via extropy-chat wrote: > > Let's not be grammar nazis. We all knew what John meant. > > > I wrote the above not because John used the word (I'll usually let that > go) but because he defended that usage by someone else. > > Yes, by all means let's use any old word that more or less resembles what > we mean, everyone will know what we mean. We may as well say "give" when > we mean "take", because context will prevent any confusion, right? Until > there's a context in which two different meanings will fit, and we can't > use words to distinguish between them because, hey, a dictionary says it's > just fine to use them in either sense. Wouldn't want to be stuffy or > anything. > > To me, the point here is encapsulated by Anton's comment "you lost me > at...". I sympathise with that. Sloppy grammar betrays sloppy thinking, and > why waste your time on a sloppy thinker? > > Bad grammar (and spelling, but that's another matter...) puts me off, and > I'm reluctant to spend time reading something written by someone who seems > semi-literate. Unless there's a compelling reason to read on (John C Clark > being a case in point), I often don't. I'm not a grammar nazi, quite the > opposite, I'm glad when people help me decide whether to spend time reading > what they write or not. > > Ben > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 22:08:29 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 17:08:29 -0500 Subject: [ExI] New Bioscience Company Raises $15 Million to Revive Woolly Mammoth In-Reply-To: References: <5811ade3-8d8a-f3bb-4aee-3fe8dd70cab2@pobox.com> <3ecd443d-5bda-f9c6-0f7d-020bb50cdd0e@pobox.com> Message-ID: There are no 'rules' in usage. There is only usage. A lot of what people think are rules are not even incorrect usage, such as ending a sentence with a preposition. Also, nothing wrong with starting a sentence with 'hopefully'. Some prigs use these supposed violations to lord it over people and wind up making fun of themselves. bill w On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 3:49 PM Gabe Waggoner via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Usage changes over time. Railing against it is silly and futile. > > I know it's futile to seek to change how the masses speak and write; my > > remarks are intended for the minority who aspire to more precision. > > "Read liberally, write conservatively," to paraphrase a computing proverb. > ------------------------------ > > > One of my favorite quotes from Bryan Garner, who wrote the grammar chapter > in* The Chicago Manual of Style*: "In any age, careful users of language > will make distinctions; careless users will blur them." > > Dictionaries are descriptive (showing how people tend to use language), > which is one reason they're constantly changing?and why you can find > "irregardless" and other such nonstandard forms in them, whereas usage > manuals are prescriptive (analyzing the correctness or lack of same). > Garner also wrote *Garner's Modern English Usage*, a resource I've relied > on for years, though I have a love?hate relationship with the man. > > As an editor, I always change "comprised of" to "consists of" or the like. > The whole comprises the parts, and the parts constitute, compose, or make > up the whole. I learned at an editing seminar years ago that the etymology > of the word *comprise* makes the passive-voice use illogical (*com*, > together, and *prise*, to take up). Also, the French verb *comprendre*, > which usually means "to understand," also can mean "to include, to consist > of, to comprise." Garner has a whole page devoted to the issue. > > The same resigned annoyance overtakes me when I see science writers use > "hone in" instead of the correct "home in" (like a homing > pigeon)?especially when writers try to justify "hone in" with some > half-baked logic about how they're trying to "sharpen their meaning." Of > course, language shifts and standards evolve. But that brings me back to > the Garner quote. I'm sure many things in grammar and usage that feel > completely fine to me were once considered horrible violations. > > Gabe > > > Gabe Waggoner, MS, ELS > Science Writer?Editor > 7318 Edmonston Rd. > College Park, MD 20740-3018 > www.nasw.org/users/rgwaggoner/ > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Thu Sep 16 23:47:10 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 16:47:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] New Bioscience Company Raises $15 Million to Revive Woolly Mammoth In-Reply-To: References: <5811ade3-8d8a-f3bb-4aee-3fe8dd70cab2@pobox.com> Message-ID: <5ba8036f-e982-5d6a-c7b8-c9c50bf76a8c@pobox.com> On 2021-9-16 07:51, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: >>From Merriam-Webster ------- > > Even if you despise comprised of and have made it your life's work to > expunge it from the writing of others, chances are very good that you > never approached the level of dedication exhibited by the Wikipedia > editor who, over a period of years, deleted tens of thousands of uses > of comprised of from that website (in addition to writing a 5,000 word > explanatory article). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Giraffedata/comprised_of I am sometimes tempted to go on similar Wiki-jihad against "the fact that", due to the fact that a sentence comprising this phrase can usually be made shorter and clearer; "refer to", when it replaces "be" or "describe"; and "in terms of", which (outside a hard science context) seems to mean the writer can't be bothered in terms of finding a more specific preposition in terms of the intended meaning. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From bronto at pobox.com Thu Sep 16 23:55:52 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 16:55:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] comprisition, was: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 216, Issue 27 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0437c43d-f434-3654-5b33-9b24ff87978c@pobox.com> >>> ??comprise? and ?compose? are roughly reciprocals, not synonyms. On 2021-9-16 15:03, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > Wrong - They are synonyms > I am not sure what a reciprocal of compose or comprise would be.? ?bill w The archipelago comprises these islands. These islands compose the archipelago. There is an inherent asymmetry between the compound and the components, the container and the contained, the product and the factors. Each can be described in relation to the other, but these are reciprocal relations, not the same relation. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 23:59:05 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 18:59:05 -0500 Subject: [ExI] New Bioscience Company Raises $15 Million to Revive Woolly Mammoth In-Reply-To: <5ba8036f-e982-5d6a-c7b8-c9c50bf76a8c@pobox.com> References: <5811ade3-8d8a-f3bb-4aee-3fe8dd70cab2@pobox.com> <5ba8036f-e982-5d6a-c7b8-c9c50bf76a8c@pobox.com> Message-ID: Autofill is a good tool for dealing with cliches. When it anticipates and autofills a cliche for me I change it to something else. bill w On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 6:50 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2021-9-16 07:51, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > >>From Merriam-Webster ------- > > > > Even if you despise comprised of and have made it your life's work to > > expunge it from the writing of others, chances are very good that you > > never approached the level of dedication exhibited by the Wikipedia > > editor who, over a period of years, deleted tens of thousands of uses > > of comprised of from that website (in addition to writing a 5,000 word > > explanatory article). > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Giraffedata/comprised_of > > I am sometimes tempted to go on similar Wiki-jihad against "the fact > that", due to the fact that a sentence comprising this phrase can > usually be made shorter and clearer; "refer to", when it replaces "be" > or "describe"; and "in terms of", which (outside a hard science context) > seems to mean the writer can't be bothered in terms of finding a more > specific preposition in terms of the intended meaning. > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 00:01:02 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:01:02 -0500 Subject: [ExI] comprisition, was: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 216, Issue 27 In-Reply-To: <0437c43d-f434-3654-5b33-9b24ff87978c@pobox.com> References: <0437c43d-f434-3654-5b33-9b24ff87978c@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 6:58 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >>> ?comprise? and ?compose? are roughly reciprocals, not synonyms. > > On 2021-9-16 15:03, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Wrong - They are synonyms > > I am not sure what a reciprocal of compose or comprise would be. bill w > > The archipelago comprises these islands. > These islands compose the archipelago. > > There is an inherent asymmetry between the compound and the components, > the container and the contained, the product and the factors. Each can > be described in relation to the other, but these are reciprocal > relations, not the same relation. Still confused: what would the 'same > relation' be? bill w > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Fri Sep 17 00:03:03 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 17:03:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] cart before horse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2021-9-16 13:10, Darin Sunley via extropy-chat wrote: > I bought a iPod touch from an Apple store with a fat stack of $20s once. > That was fun. I bought my first gun with $100 bills. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Fri Sep 17 00:09:13 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 17:09:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] cart before horse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00cb01d7ab58$3f9cc770$bed65650$@rainier66.com> >?Why isn't that law unconstitutional? It assumes that a person is guilty of drug dealing with no proof but the money. bill w Billw, the way this evolved is from when a car was seized after the authorities were alerted by an informant. The car was found to contain a trunk full of cash. The constables wait for someone to come along an claim the car, but of course no one ever does. The courts rules that the sheriff gets to keep the cash. Hey, such a deal! >From that, we get cash sniffing dogs. Find car full of cash, wait for someone to come along, no one does. The sheriff keeps the cash. >From that, they pull over a ?suspicious looking? vehicle, dogs find cash, driver claims she was hired to drive the car somewhere, knows nothing about the cash. OK then, she can run along now, sheriff keeps the cash. The ruling evolved to the point where anyone carrying a lotta cash is a suspect. It is a short step from that to anyone with a lotta cash in their house is a suspect, and from that, anyone with BitCoin is a suspect. Power corrupts. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Fri Sep 17 00:29:52 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 17:29:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] comprisition, was: New Bioscience Company Raises $15 Million to Revive Woolly Mammoth In-Reply-To: References: <5811ade3-8d8a-f3bb-4aee-3fe8dd70cab2@pobox.com> <3ecd443d-5bda-f9c6-0f7d-020bb50cdd0e@pobox.com> Message-ID: On 2021-9-16 12:59, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat wrote: > I know it's futile to seek to change how the masses speak and write Not always; some taboo-campaigns have made a difference. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From bronto at pobox.com Fri Sep 17 00:47:23 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 17:47:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] comprisition, was: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 216, Issue 27 In-Reply-To: References: <0437c43d-f434-3654-5b33-9b24ff87978c@pobox.com> Message-ID: >> There is an inherent asymmetry between the compound and the >> components, the container and the contained, the product and >> the factors. Each can be described in relation to the other, >> but these are reciprocal relations, not the same relation. On 2021-9-16 17:01, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > Still confused: what would the 'same relation' be? bill w If say that something doesn't exist, will you ask for an example? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From avant at sollegro.com Fri Sep 17 01:04:43 2021 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 18:04:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Chinese Education Message-ID: <20210916180443.Horde.h-I7g-sd4a-t_gTuVXdm4I8@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMLsHI8aV0g The video is worth thousands of words of text. Apparently, the Chinese are preparing their youth to go borg. Their school children are no longer allowed to daydream during boring lectures thanks to potentially sketchy EEG technology. Stuart LaForge From bronto at pobox.com Fri Sep 17 01:08:44 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 18:08:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] cart before horse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2021-9-16 12:59, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > Why isn't that law unconstitutional?? It assumes that a person is guilty > of drug dealing with no proof but the money.? bill w In forfeiture, the property itself is charged as a party to crime; the owner is irrelevant. If the case gets to court, it is called something like _Govt v. Approximately $45,881 in Currency_. This is a civil suit, so the standard is "preponderance of the evidence" rather than "beyond a reasonable doubt"; and the property has no Sixth Amendment rights. Summary: https://ij.org/issues/private-property/civil-forfeiture/ Many stories: https://reason.com/tag/civil-asset-forfeiture/ The notion that property can itself be guilty was originally applied to things like a bull that got loose and gored someone. At first the bull would be killed (perhaps hanged), but it's so much more efficient to forfeit him to the Crown instead! Lately many States have banned or restricted forfeiture, or require that the loot go to the state's general fund rather than to the agency that seized it. Police in those states get around the ban by bringing in the feds, who do the forfeiture and kick some back; this practice is called "equitable sharing". -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From bronto at pobox.com Fri Sep 17 01:38:18 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 18:38:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] comprisition, was: New Bioscience Company Raises $15 Million to Revive Woolly Mammoth In-Reply-To: <03A914AD-414C-459E-882D-5C53F0CA8B82@gmail.com> References: <03A914AD-414C-459E-882D-5C53F0CA8B82@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2021-9-16 09:34, SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: > English has a long tradition of verb+preposition meaning > something different than simply the verb. > > Example: > > Break > Outbreak > Break out > Break in > Break up > Break down > Etc. > > Breaking up with your boyfriend and breaking him are not even nearly > the same, and compare that to breaking in or breaking out with him? The only preposition here is 'with'. There may be better examples but this isn't one. > And besides that, why can?t we speak casually on an email list? Do we need to be formal and stuffy? As I was mentioned of before, my initial sally about "comprised of" was a quick casual barb aimed at whatever magazine JG was quoted of; I only expanded on it when JG replied to that. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From sen.otaku at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 03:04:14 2021 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 23:04:14 -0400 Subject: [ExI] cart before horse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <265279A1-2A4E-46A8-82EB-7F7916BDAB53@gmail.com> Civil asset forfeiture actually isn?t a charge against the person doing something illegal, but against the STUFF being illegal. It?s bizarre and doesn?t follow normal law rules. Bc of this they have funny names like ?plymouth sedan vs. Pennsylvania?. SR Ballard > On Sep 16, 2021, at 4:12 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > Why isn't that law unconstitutional? It assumes that a person is guilty of drug dealing with no proof but the money. bill w > >> On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 1:58 PM Dave Sill via extropy-chat wrote: >>> On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 2:39 PM MB via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> My neighbor bought a new car with cash. >> >> Assuming we're talking about actual paper currency, carrying large amounts is very dangerous due to the practice of Civil Asset Forfeiture. Cops can take and keep it on the grounds that they think it was obtained illegally. >> >> -Dave >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 05:31:54 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 22:31:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] cart before horse In-Reply-To: <00cb01d7ab58$3f9cc770$bed65650$@rainier66.com> References: <00cb01d7ab58$3f9cc770$bed65650$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 5:26 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The ruling evolved to the point where anyone carrying a lotta cash is a > suspect. > That statement, with no further qualification, seems to be not entirely factually true at this time. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 20:57:06 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 13:57:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] New Bioscience Company Raises $15 Million to Revive Woolly Mammoth In-Reply-To: References: <5811ade3-8d8a-f3bb-4aee-3fe8dd70cab2@pobox.com> <5ba8036f-e982-5d6a-c7b8-c9c50bf76a8c@pobox.com> Message-ID: I suspect "comprise" may actually become a synonym for "compose" within a century or two. The word just feels right to me, to be used in such a way. I now realize it is not currently a correct usage, but in time it may be. I have done my part. When I come out of cryonic suspension, this will be one of my first questions for the human and robot attendants! https://www.grammarly.com/blog/comprise-vs-compose/ John ; ) On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 5:06 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Autofill is a good tool for dealing with cliches. When it anticipates and > autofills a cliche for me I change it to something else. bill w > > On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 6:50 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On 2021-9-16 07:51, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: >> >>From Merriam-Webster ------- >> > >> > Even if you despise comprised of and have made it your life's work to >> > expunge it from the writing of others, chances are very good that you >> > never approached the level of dedication exhibited by the Wikipedia >> > editor who, over a period of years, deleted tens of thousands of uses >> > of comprised of from that website (in addition to writing a 5,000 word >> > explanatory article). >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Giraffedata/comprised_of >> >> I am sometimes tempted to go on similar Wiki-jihad against "the fact >> that", due to the fact that a sentence comprising this phrase can >> usually be made shorter and clearer; "refer to", when it replaces "be" >> or "describe"; and "in terms of", which (outside a hard science context) >> seems to mean the writer can't be bothered in terms of finding a more >> specific preposition in terms of the intended meaning. >> >> -- >> *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 22:19:39 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 15:19:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] cart before horse In-Reply-To: References: <00cb01d7ab58$3f9cc770$bed65650$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 5:26 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The ruling evolved to the point where anyone carrying a lotta cash is a > suspect. > But doesn't that depend on your location? On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 10:36 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 5:26 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> The ruling evolved to the point where anyone carrying a lotta cash is a >> suspect. >> > > That statement, with no further qualification, seems to be not entirely > factually true at this time. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 11:35:22 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 07:35:22 -0400 Subject: [ExI] New Bioscience Company Raises $15 Million to Revive Woolly Mammoth In-Reply-To: References: <5811ade3-8d8a-f3bb-4aee-3fe8dd70cab2@pobox.com> <3ecd443d-5bda-f9c6-0f7d-020bb50cdd0e@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 4:03 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > On 2021-9-16 12:00, Dave Sill via extropy-chat wrote: > > What part of the following is unclear? > > > > "The Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary, Collins English Dictionary > > and the Oxford Dictionaries regard the form /comprised of/ as standard > > English usage." > > Does that mean that preferring more conservative usages, when they > preserve useful distinctions, is NOT allowable? > No, nobody said you couldn't have a preference. But publicly "correcting" people who don't follow your preference is a different, more annoying, thing than merely having and using a preference. I know it's futile to seek to change how the masses speak and write; my > remarks are intended for the minority who aspire to more precision. > OK, then maybe aspire to be nicer about it. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 11:49:30 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 07:49:30 -0400 Subject: [ExI] cart before horse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 4:12 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Why isn't that law unconstitutional? It assumes that a person is guilty > of drug dealing with no proof but the money. > I agree it's unconstitutional, but I'm not a Constitutional law expert. Getting it to the Supreme Court has been a challenge. Civil Asset Forfeiture is very popular with law enforcement. And the public is surprisingly OK with it because they trust their law enforcement "heroes" to use it wisely. The Institute for Justice has a good report about civil forfeture: https://ij.org/report/policing-for-profit-3/ -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 12:09:09 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 22:09:09 +1000 Subject: [ExI] cart before horse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Sept 2021 at 21:51, Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 4:12 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Why isn't that law unconstitutional? It assumes that a person is guilty >> of drug dealing with no proof but the money. >> > > I agree it's unconstitutional, but I'm not a Constitutional law expert. > Getting it to the Supreme Court has been a challenge. Civil Asset > Forfeiture is very popular with law enforcement. And the public is > surprisingly OK with it because they trust their law enforcement "heroes" > to use it wisely. > > The Institute for Justice has a good report about civil forfeture: > > https://ij.org/report/policing-for-profit-3/ > At least in "corrupt" countries you can get something in return for giving public officials money. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Sep 17 13:09:22 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 06:09:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] cart before horse In-Reply-To: References: <00cb01d7ab58$3f9cc770$bed65650$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006501d7abc5$3bd809c0$b3881d40$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Grigg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] cart before horse On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 5:26 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: The ruling evolved to the point where anyone carrying a lotta cash is a suspect. >>?That statement, with no further qualification, seems to be not entirely factually true at this time. >?But doesn't that depend on your location? It is. In the valley, particularly in Sunnyvale and Santa Clara in 1989, there was a crazy land rush similar to what is happening here and now: people were putting their homes up for sale at an advertised price which was really merely a teaser because there would be a crazy bidding war which would command five digit overprice offers and if the location was particularly appealing, six digit. This was in 1989. A common pattern was for owners to send in the asking price while they were still there, moving out or doing last minute repairs or just cleaning the counters after they finished preparing their last lunch in that house. A group of Lockheed guys got together and pooled a bunch of money. They hired a lawyer who had gone into real estate as a side hustle and found out it pays way better if you do it right. Cell phones were not new then, but they were recent and not many had them. When any new listing came on the market, his partner would call him while he was out on the road, just trolling around in the neighborhoods. He would drive directly to the site. Sometimes he would catch the owners at the site. He had a briefcase full of cash. He would sometimes find the owner, identify him or her by some means as the legal owner, present the briefcase full of cash. The owners would stammer and try to back out sometimes, but he would then gently explain that it is racial discrimination to refuse to sell a property for the asking price (he is black.) Being a lawyer, he knew exactly what buttons to push. Often he would successfully buy the property right there and become the legal owner. Then they would flip the property, usually will little or no investment, sometimes with just a day?s effort cleaning, for thousands, sometimes tens of thousands in profit. The Lockheed guys made a fortune. While that was going on, they discussed the risk that a local constabulary catch this guy carrying a quarter of a million bucks in cash and decide he must be a drug dealer, so the Lockheed guys had a contingency should that happen. I was one of the Lockheed guys who was not in on the deal (because I didn?t have any money at that time (and I didn?t own a house either.)) I heard they doubled their investment with change left over between May and October 1989. That all came to a sudden end on the 17th when the Loma Prieta earthquake hit. It was six years after that before I could afford to buy a house, even though by bride and I had no children, no expensive habits, didn?t travel far, had only one car between us, rented a cheap apartment, had no medical bills, and we were both employed in professional-level jobs. Even with all that going for us, six years it took. I can scarcely imagine how difficult it is for new people coming into this valley now, when we are again in a crazy sellers market with houses. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 13:20:38 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 08:20:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] comprisition, was: New Bioscience Company Raises $15 Million to Revive Woolly Mammoth In-Reply-To: References: <03A914AD-414C-459E-882D-5C53F0CA8B82@gmail.com> Message-ID: I once kept a list of words that had 'up' added to it. Pages and pages before I finally quit. Many of them made no sense at all. The house burned down - the people burned up. The winner in the odd category: 'up under the house'. Why not 'down'? Odd. bill w On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 8:41 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2021-9-16 09:34, SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: > > English has a long tradition of verb+preposition meaning > > something different than simply the verb. > > > > Example: > > > > Break > > Outbreak > > Break out > > Break in > > Break up > > Break down > > Etc. > > > > Breaking up with your boyfriend and breaking him are not even nearly > > the same, and compare that to breaking in or breaking out with him? > > The only preposition here is 'with'. There may be better examples but > this isn't one. > > > > And besides that, why can?t we speak casually on an email list? Do we > need to be formal and stuffy? > > As I was mentioned of before, my initial sally about "comprised of" was > a quick casual barb aimed at whatever magazine JG was quoted of; I only > expanded on it when JG replied to that. > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 13:28:50 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 08:28:50 -0500 Subject: [ExI] New Bioscience Company Raises $15 Million to Revive Woolly Mammoth In-Reply-To: References: <5811ade3-8d8a-f3bb-4aee-3fe8dd70cab2@pobox.com> <5ba8036f-e982-5d6a-c7b8-c9c50bf76a8c@pobox.com> Message-ID: If you just search for 'synonym for comprise' you will find 'compose' right there on the page. bill w On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 12:57 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I suspect "comprise" may actually become a synonym for "compose" within a > century or two. The word just feels right to me, to be used in such a way. > I now realize it is not currently a correct usage, but in time it may be. I > have done my part. > > When I come out of cryonic suspension, this will be one of my first > questions for the human and robot attendants! > > https://www.grammarly.com/blog/comprise-vs-compose/ > > John ; ) > > > > > On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 5:06 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Autofill is a good tool for dealing with cliches. When it anticipates >> and autofills a cliche for me I change it to something else. bill w >> >> On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 6:50 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> On 2021-9-16 07:51, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>From Merriam-Webster ------- >>> > >>> > Even if you despise comprised of and have made it your life's work to >>> > expunge it from the writing of others, chances are very good that you >>> > never approached the level of dedication exhibited by the Wikipedia >>> > editor who, over a period of years, deleted tens of thousands of uses >>> > of comprised of from that website (in addition to writing a 5,000 word >>> > explanatory article). >>> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Giraffedata/comprised_of >>> >>> I am sometimes tempted to go on similar Wiki-jihad against "the fact >>> that", due to the fact that a sentence comprising this phrase can >>> usually be made shorter and clearer; "refer to", when it replaces "be" >>> or "describe"; and "in terms of", which (outside a hard science context) >>> seems to mean the writer can't be bothered in terms of finding a more >>> specific preposition in terms of the intended meaning. >>> >>> -- >>> *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Sep 17 13:47:31 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 06:47:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] comprisition, was: New Bioscience Company Raises $15 Million to Revive Woolly Mammoth In-Reply-To: References: <03A914AD-414C-459E-882D-5C53F0CA8B82@gmail.com> Message-ID: <007801d7abca$907fff50$b17ffdf0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] comprisition, was: New Bioscience Company Raises $15 Million to Revive Woolly Mammoth I once kept a list of words that had 'up' added to it. Pages and pages before I finally quit. Many of them made no sense at all. The house burned down - the people burned up? That can happen, if the fire is hot enough and burns long enough. Some houses contain a lot of steel which stays down while the rest of it (including the occupants (who are mostly composed of carbon (thanks for the education on composed vs comprised))) can burn up, in the form of hot carbon dioxide. >?The winner in the odd category: 'up under the house'. Why not 'down'? Odd. bill w It?s a southern thing BillW. Heard it since I was a child. Something can be ?up and underneath? rather than down underneath, which I too thought was an odd saying, but it was around a long time before we came along. The word up is overworked, as any short word will be of course, but this encourages the creative imagination. Up can mean awake, so that ?up under the house? can mean you are fully awake (or perhaps aroused) down there, which is advisable considering the risk that crawling around up under the house can result in having a rattlesnake bite your goddam nose off. If on the other hand, we say down underneath the house, it makes it sound like one is temporarily non-functional or is copulating below the main floor, perhaps both of these simultaneously, but again, most unadvisable. Words are tools, but they are also toys. English is great for cutting up on ExI-chat. There it can be exercised in all its refulgent glory for a mostly indulgent crowd. A most marvelous aspect of the remarkable ambiguity and versatility of English is its ability to stimulate the imagination, particularly in those whose imaginations are already hyperactive, the minds which are cheerfully and intentionally overstimulated. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 14:10:25 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 15:10:25 +0100 Subject: [ExI] New Bioscience Company Raises $15 Million to Revive Woolly Mammoth In-Reply-To: References: <5811ade3-8d8a-f3bb-4aee-3fe8dd70cab2@pobox.com> <5ba8036f-e982-5d6a-c7b8-c9c50bf76a8c@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Sept 2021 at 14:33, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > If you just search for 'synonym for comprise' you will find 'compose' right there on the page. bill w > > _______________________________________________ You have to be careful when using a thesaurus for synonyms and antonyms. The results will provide exact matches and a selection of near matches which can be used depending on context. Some will give the completely wrong meaning for a particular context. e.g. pupil can be a scholar or a part of an eye. For examples, see This can produce odd-sounding results, especially if translating to a foreign language using a foreign dictionary with vocabulary that you are less familiar with, causing a native speaker to burst out laughing. :) BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 15:02:29 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 10:02:29 -0500 Subject: [ExI] New Bioscience Company Raises $15 Million to Revive Woolly Mammoth In-Reply-To: References: <5811ade3-8d8a-f3bb-4aee-3fe8dd70cab2@pobox.com> <5ba8036f-e982-5d6a-c7b8-c9c50bf76a8c@pobox.com> Message-ID: Thank you, Bill K. I am very aware of that. bill w On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 9:14 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, 17 Sept 2021 at 14:33, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > If you just search for 'synonym for comprise' you will find 'compose' > right there on the page. bill w > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > You have to be careful when using a thesaurus for synonyms and > antonyms. The results will provide exact matches and a selection of > near matches which can be used depending on context. > Some will give the completely wrong meaning for a particular context. > e.g. pupil can be a scholar or a part of an eye. > For examples, see > > This can produce odd-sounding results, especially if translating to a > foreign language using a foreign dictionary with vocabulary that you > are less familiar with, causing a native speaker to burst out > laughing. > :) > > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Fri Sep 17 18:12:51 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 11:12:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] New Bioscience Company Raises $15 Million to Revive Woolly Mammoth In-Reply-To: References: <5811ade3-8d8a-f3bb-4aee-3fe8dd70cab2@pobox.com> <5ba8036f-e982-5d6a-c7b8-c9c50bf76a8c@pobox.com> Message-ID: <2329cc09-849c-c9e6-5e88-31c0a3370e5f@pobox.com> On 2021-9-17 07:10, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > This can produce odd-sounding results, especially if translating to a > foreign language using a foreign dictionary with vocabulary that you > are less familiar with, causing a native speaker to burst out > laughing. I've seen some odd ones in spam comments on my blog; some spambots use synonyms to try to avoid matching known patterns, and they're not fussy about which synonyms. Mom relayed this anecdote: Some Americans in Germany wanted to bake an apple pie. Their cookbook recommended using tart apples. So they looked up 'tart' in their English-German dictionary. The grocer was bewildered. Another kind of pitfall: Thirty years ago I was a book-herald in the SCA. Someone wanted to register a household with 'Amer' in its name, explaining that that is Russian for 'Honor'. Some heralds knew enough Russian to think that ain't right. We found a dictionary that said HONOR: amer[ikanski] = HONOUR -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From bronto at pobox.com Fri Sep 17 18:15:04 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 11:15:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] comprisition, was: New Bioscience Company Raises $15 Million to Revive Woolly Mammoth In-Reply-To: References: <03A914AD-414C-459E-882D-5C53F0CA8B82@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9b7b658a-6817-d87d-90eb-02e2452dec9c@pobox.com> On 2021-9-17 06:20, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > The winner in the odd category:? 'up under the house'.? Why not 'down'? > Odd.? ?bill w What does it mean? What is the context? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From bronto at pobox.com Fri Sep 17 18:15:46 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 11:15:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] cart before horse In-Reply-To: <006501d7abc5$3bd809c0$b3881d40$@rainier66.com> References: <00cb01d7ab58$3f9cc770$bed65650$@rainier66.com> <006501d7abc5$3bd809c0$b3881d40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On 2021-9-17 06:09, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > While that was going on, they discussed the risk that a local > constabulary catch this guy carrying a quarter of a million bucks in > cash and decide he must be a drug dealer, so the Lockheed guys had a > contingency should that happen. Go on ... -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From bronto at pobox.com Fri Sep 17 18:22:21 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 11:22:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] cart before horse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51212a04-688d-9e12-eca6-d9c1dbabdef8@pobox.com> On 2021-9-17 04:49, Dave Sill via extropy-chat wrote: > Civil Asset Forfeiture is very popular with law enforcement. > And the public is surprisingly OK with it because they trust > their law enforcement "heroes" to use it wisely. Whenever a legislature tries to restrict it, the pigs will protest that forfeiture is an indispensable tool against druglords. Never mind that many of the former owners (four in five, by one estimate) are never charged with any crime. Back the Blue!!1! Let's just hope other agencies don't get the idea of doing something unconstitutional and empirically useless in the name of, say, fighting terrorism. It has been said, "Don't steal; the government hates the competition." In at least one recent year, police seizures exceeded private burglary and robbery in the Home of the Brave. So at least 'our team' is winning that competition. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Fri Sep 17 19:00:09 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 12:00:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] cart before horse In-Reply-To: References: <00cb01d7ab58$3f9cc770$bed65650$@rainier66.com> <006501d7abc5$3bd809c0$b3881d40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008e01d7abf6$3defa8e0$b9cefaa0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat ... Subject: Re: [ExI] cart before horse On 2021-9-17 06:09, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > While that was going on, they discussed the risk that a local > constabulary catch this guy carrying a quarter of a million bucks in > cash and decide he must be a drug dealer, so the Lockheed guys had a > contingency should that happen. Go on ... -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org _______________________________________________ Asset forfeiture was far less an advanced 'technology' in those days and the constabulary were more trustworthy. In any company such as Lockheed, we had plenty of friends and connections within the law enforcement community. They knew what the Lockheed guys were doing. It was all perfectly legal. No one ever tried to arrest the agent they had going around buying properties. Fun aside: the engineering group worked in a big open area, with partitions to divide somewhat private office space. I am 6 ft even and didn't need to stretch to see over the top of the partitions, so we could hear what was going on even across the space where about 100 of us were working. When something noisy happened, such as someone lost their temper and began loudly berating someone else, heads would pop up everywhere, a phenomenon we called prairie dogging. Most of the players in this lucrative real estate game were from that project where I was working at the time. Lotta senior guys working that project. The ring leader was in the next cubicle from me, so I heard everything always. I was in the market for a house at that time, so I found it most frustrating to listen to all these guys making money hand over fist while I was left out and losing bid after bid on houses. When their real estate guy made a score by flipping a property, he would call Tony. I would hear: Oh GREAT! Good work! Then within a minute, another phone a few cubicles away would ring and Tony would say "Joe, we just made 32 thousand bucks!" Another minute, two phones would ring, then four... It all came to a sudden end when the earthquake came along and real estate prices froze for the next five years, after which I could afford a home. So... yes we know. The odds are stacked against the poor, and yes we know, that isn't going to change in the foreseeable. I have seen it from that perspective. I have had the experience of being a homeowner, selling for a profit, then not having nearly enough for even a down payment in the Bay area. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 19:50:19 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 14:50:19 -0500 Subject: [ExI] comprisition, was: New Bioscience Company Raises $15 Million to Revive Woolly Mammoth In-Reply-To: <9b7b658a-6817-d87d-90eb-02e2452dec9c@pobox.com> References: <03A914AD-414C-459E-882D-5C53F0CA8B82@gmail.com> <9b7b658a-6817-d87d-90eb-02e2452dec9c@pobox.com> Message-ID: 'Up under the house' means 'under the house'. Go figure. bill w On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 1:24 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2021-9-17 06:20, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > The winner in the odd category: 'up under the house'. Why not 'down'? > > Odd. bill w > > What does it mean? What is the context? > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 19:55:46 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 14:55:46 -0500 Subject: [ExI] New Bioscience Company Raises $15 Million to Revive Woolly Mammoth In-Reply-To: <2329cc09-849c-c9e6-5e88-31c0a3370e5f@pobox.com> References: <5811ade3-8d8a-f3bb-4aee-3fe8dd70cab2@pobox.com> <5ba8036f-e982-5d6a-c7b8-c9c50bf76a8c@pobox.com> <2329cc09-849c-c9e6-5e88-31c0a3370e5f@pobox.com> Message-ID: Attempting to buy a loaf of bread in France, a guy attempted to put the word into French. So he said "One loaf of bread with no 'preservatif'". All the staff started laughing. In French a condom is called a 'preservatif'. What we call a preservative is called a 'conservatif' in French. bill w On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 1:16 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2021-9-17 07:10, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > > This can produce odd-sounding results, especially if translating to a > > foreign language using a foreign dictionary with vocabulary that you > > are less familiar with, causing a native speaker to burst out > > laughing. > > I've seen some odd ones in spam comments on my blog; some spambots use > synonyms to try to avoid matching known patterns, and they're not fussy > about which synonyms. > > Mom relayed this anecdote: > Some Americans in Germany wanted to bake an apple pie. > Their cookbook recommended using tart apples. > So they looked up 'tart' in their English-German dictionary. > The grocer was bewildered. > > Another kind of pitfall: > Thirty years ago I was a book-herald in the SCA. > Someone wanted to register a household with 'Amer' in its name, > explaining that that is Russian for 'Honor'. Some heralds knew enough > Russian to think that ain't right. We found a dictionary that said > HONOR: amer[ikanski] = HONOUR > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Sep 18 03:24:56 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 20:24:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Running up against energy limits In-Reply-To: References: <002901d7a70b$ce570fd0$6b052f70$@rainier66.com> <004001d7a7f8$407b2820$c1717860$@rainier66.com> <006601d7a848$52ed8b10$f8c8a130$@rainier66.com> <003101d7a8af$e7e02a90$b7a07fb0$@rainier66.com> <002701d7a8ba$cf0602a0$6d1207e0$@rainier66.com> <004a01d7a8cd$d521e790$7f65b6b0$@rainier66.com> <005101d7a8ea$b2b97070 $182c5150$@rainier66.com> <008201d7a8f1$d6de0c20$849a2460$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00d701d7ac3c$c1504f00$43f0ed00$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat ? Now? we face a hostage situation worse than the one in Iran 40 yrs ago. Before it is over, the US may need to shoot its way back in. Or leave American hostages to die. >?Those Americans who are still there, either did not want to leave or were ordered to stay (e.g. soldiers). They're hardly hostages. Which category is Nasria? She is a pregnant American woman from California who escaped today from Kabul. When she gets here, do let us ask her, see if she wanted to stay for more Taliban beatings or come home. https://www.voanews.com/a/episode_voa-exclusive-american-stuck-afghanistan-shares-her-story-4793751/6218632.html spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Sep 18 12:03:37 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 13:03:37 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Pentagon Says Killing 10 Afghan Civilians Was 'Horrible Mistake' Message-ID: US Urged to End Drone Strikes After Pentagon Says Killing 10 Afghan Civilians Was 'Horrible Mistake' "That was not a 'mistake,'" said journalist Anand Giridharadas. "War crimes are not oopsies." Quotes: BRETT WILKINS September 17, 2021 Following a rare Pentagon admission Friday that a remote-controlled airstrike which killed 10 Afghan civilians in the closing days of the war in Afghanistan was a "horrible mistake," anti-war and human rights advocates asserted that "war crimes are not oopsies," while calling on the U.S. to end drone strikes in the so-called War on Terror. "Many similar strikes in Syria, Iraq, and Somalia have happened out of the spotlight, and the U.S. continues to deny responsibility while devastated families suffer in silence." ?Brian Castner, Amnesty International --------- Journalists, anti-war activists, and others noted that as many as 48,000 Afghan civilians?and at least around 900,000 men, women, and children in the broader War on Terror?have been killed by U.S. and allied bombs and bullets over the past 20 years, while calling for an end to drone strikes. Olivia Alperstein, media manager at the Washington, D.C.-based Institute for Policy Studies, tweeted that the U.S. should "apologize for all the drone strikes, and put an end to drone warfare once and for all." -------------- Civilians killed are called 'collateral damage' which is what is bound to happen when bombs are used outside of a war zone. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Sat Sep 18 14:24:10 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 07:24:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Pentagon Says Killing 10 Afghan Civilians Was 'Horrible Mistake' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001301d7ac98$d9648910$8c2d9b30$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Pentagon Says Killing 10 Afghan Civilians Was 'Horrible Mistake' US Urged to End Drone Strikes After Pentagon Says Killing 10 Afghan Civilians Was 'Horrible Mistake' >..."That was not a 'mistake,'" said journalist Anand Giridharadas. "War crimes are not oopsies." ... -------------- >...Civilians killed are called 'collateral damage' which is what is bound to happen when bombs are used outside of a war zone. BillK _______________________________________________ It was exactly what it looks like BillK: a Wag the Dog attack. This one actually killed people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wag_the_Dog They were desperate to change the headlines, get the discussion off of the hostages. spike From avant at sollegro.com Sun Sep 19 16:06:14 2021 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 09:06:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] comprisition, was: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 216, Issue 27 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20210919090614.Horde.rVV1rLStBhCVNP89frLZbgE@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Anton Sherwood: >>>> ??comprise? and ?compose? are roughly reciprocals, not synonyms. > > On 2021-9-16 15:03, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >> Wrong - They are synonyms >> I am not sure what a reciprocal of compose or comprise would be.? ?bill w > > The archipelago comprises these islands. > These islands compose the archipelago. > > There is an inherent asymmetry between the compound and the components, > the container and the contained, the product and the factors. Each can > be described in relation to the other, but these are reciprocal > relations, not the same relation. Not being a fan of Nazis, grammar or otherwise, I won't speak to whether "composed" an "comprised" are grammatically synonyms or not. I will, however, state from personal experience that as terms of art in patent law, the two words convey different distinct meanings and the distinction can be costly to would be inventors. That distinction is that in a patent application, "composed" carries the connotation of completeness while "comprised" is open-ended. So, for example, if you write in a patent application, "my invention, the electric light, is composed of a light bulb, a battery, and wires in a circuit", then that is the entirety of your invention. So if somebody else adds something to the circuit, like a switch or a resistor, then the new circuit is no longer your invention and no infringement has occurred. On the other hand, if you write in your patent application, "my invention, the electric light, comprises a light bulb, a battery, and wires in a circuit", then somebody who adds a switch or diode to the circuit is still using your invention and it is infringing your patent rights. So in patent law "comprised" infers that the components listed are not all there is to the invention, simply that any additional components are ancillary to the invention. While composed suggests the components listed are in total, the complete invention. Applying patent law to the OP's use of comprised: A burger comprised of wooly mammoth meat might also contain beef, soy, or other fillers in addition to mammoth meat, but a burger composed of mammoth meat would have to be 100% mammoth meat and nothing else. I hope that helps without being overly pedantic. Stuart LaForge From spike at rainier66.com Sun Sep 19 16:18:07 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 09:18:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ok what now... Message-ID: <004001d7ad71$eec53410$cc4f9c30$@rainier66.com> Cool, what a fun gag! I have always wanted to do this ever since these RC rigs started showing up: https://twitter.com/i/status/1439220327767322627 OK so, now the dogs chase, that was fun, now... the batteries start to run down. How do I get my car back? spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 19:18:54 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 14:18:54 -0500 Subject: [ExI] comprisition, was: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 216, Issue 27 In-Reply-To: <20210919090614.Horde.rVV1rLStBhCVNP89frLZbgE@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20210919090614.Horde.rVV1rLStBhCVNP89frLZbgE@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: I hope that helps without being overly pedantic. Stuart LaForge Thanks - I would hate to see a post of yours that was. bill w On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 11:09 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Quoting Anton Sherwood: > > >>>> ??comprise? and ?compose? are roughly reciprocals, not synonyms. > > > > On 2021-9-16 15:03, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > >> Wrong - They are synonyms > >> I am not sure what a reciprocal of compose or comprise would be.? ?bill > w > > > > The archipelago comprises these islands. > > These islands compose the archipelago. > > > > There is an inherent asymmetry between the compound and the components, > > the container and the contained, the product and the factors. Each can > > be described in relation to the other, but these are reciprocal > > relations, not the same relation. > > Not being a fan of Nazis, grammar or otherwise, I won't speak to > whether "composed" an "comprised" are grammatically synonyms or not. I > will, however, state from personal experience that as terms of art in > patent law, the two words convey different distinct meanings and the > distinction can be costly to would be inventors. That distinction is > that in a patent application, "composed" carries the connotation of > completeness while "comprised" is open-ended. > > So, for example, if you write in a patent application, "my invention, > the electric light, is composed of a light bulb, a battery, and wires > in a circuit", then that is the entirety of your invention. So if > somebody else adds something to the circuit, like a switch or a > resistor, then the new circuit is no longer your invention and no > infringement has occurred. > > On the other hand, if you write in your patent application, "my > invention, the electric light, comprises a light bulb, a battery, and > wires in a circuit", then somebody who adds a switch or diode to the > circuit is still using your invention and it is infringing your patent > rights. > > So in patent law "comprised" infers that the components listed are not > all there is to the invention, simply that any additional components > are ancillary to the invention. While composed suggests the components > listed are in total, the complete invention. > > Applying patent law to the OP's use of comprised: A burger comprised > of wooly mammoth meat might also contain beef, soy, or other fillers > in addition to mammoth meat, but a burger composed of mammoth meat > would have to be 100% mammoth meat and nothing else. > > I hope that helps without being overly pedantic. > > Stuart LaForge > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 03:17:56 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 20:17:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ok what now... In-Reply-To: <004001d7ad71$eec53410$cc4f9c30$@rainier66.com> References: <004001d7ad71$eec53410$cc4f9c30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: In advance, you plan out some recovery area - maybe behind a bench or between benches, where the whole mass of dogs will not follow at once, so you only have to deal with maybe one or two dogs as you pick up your car. Pick it up quickly and put it somewhere the dogs can see that they can not get to, such as in the trunk of your car (nearby, ,which you quickly close). Remember that you can not tell the dogs anything: they must see that there is no more point in chasing. On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 9:20 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Cool, what a fun gag! I have always wanted to do this ever since these RC > rigs started showing up: > > https://twitter.com/i/status/1439220327767322627 > > OK so, now the dogs chase, that was fun, now... the batteries start to run > down. How do I get my car back? > > spike > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 22:16:45 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 15:16:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ok what now... In-Reply-To: References: <004001d7ad71$eec53410$cc4f9c30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: How fast can a large canine sprint? And how speedy is an RC car like the one shown? I was surprised at how easily it could outpace the dogs. If I had the resources of an Elon Musk, I would commission the design of a "RoboCat!" ; ) On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 8:21 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > In advance, you plan out some recovery area - maybe behind a bench or > between benches, where the whole mass of dogs will not follow at once, so > you only have to deal with maybe one or two dogs as you pick up your car. > Pick it up quickly and put it somewhere the dogs can see that they can not > get to, such as in the trunk of your car (nearby, ,which you quickly > close). Remember that you can not tell the dogs anything: they must see > that there is no more point in chasing. > > On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 9:20 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> Cool, what a fun gag! I have always wanted to do this ever since these RC >> rigs started showing up: >> >> https://twitter.com/i/status/1439220327767322627 >> >> OK so, now the dogs chase, that was fun, now... the batteries start to run >> down. How do I get my car back? >> >> spike >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 22:29:56 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 15:29:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] comprisition, was: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 216, Issue 27 In-Reply-To: <20210919090614.Horde.rVV1rLStBhCVNP89frLZbgE@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20210919090614.Horde.rVV1rLStBhCVNP89frLZbgE@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: Stuart LaForge wrote: "Applying patent law to the OP's use of comprised: A burger comprised of wooly mammoth meat might also contain beef, soy, or other fillers in addition to mammoth meat, but a burger composed of mammoth meat would have to be 100% mammoth meat and nothing else." A-hah! Well, thank you Stuart... My Woolly's mammoth burger(TM) will be *comprised* of twenty percent woolly mammoth meat, and eighty percent beef, soy and of course, delicious wood pulp. I gotta keep those costs down! John ; ) On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 9:09 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Quoting Anton Sherwood: > > >>>> ??comprise? and ?compose? are roughly reciprocals, not synonyms. > > > > On 2021-9-16 15:03, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > >> Wrong - They are synonyms > >> I am not sure what a reciprocal of compose or comprise would be.? ?bill > w > > > > The archipelago comprises these islands. > > These islands compose the archipelago. > > > > There is an inherent asymmetry between the compound and the components, > > the container and the contained, the product and the factors. Each can > > be described in relation to the other, but these are reciprocal > > relations, not the same relation. > > Not being a fan of Nazis, grammar or otherwise, I won't speak to > whether "composed" an "comprised" are grammatically synonyms or not. I > will, however, state from personal experience that as terms of art in > patent law, the two words convey different distinct meanings and the > distinction can be costly to would be inventors. That distinction is > that in a patent application, "composed" carries the connotation of > completeness while "comprised" is open-ended. > > So, for example, if you write in a patent application, "my invention, > the electric light, is composed of a light bulb, a battery, and wires > in a circuit", then that is the entirety of your invention. So if > somebody else adds something to the circuit, like a switch or a > resistor, then the new circuit is no longer your invention and no > infringement has occurred. > > On the other hand, if you write in your patent application, "my > invention, the electric light, comprises a light bulb, a battery, and > wires in a circuit", then somebody who adds a switch or diode to the > circuit is still using your invention and it is infringing your patent > rights. > > So in patent law "comprised" infers that the components listed are not > all there is to the invention, simply that any additional components > are ancillary to the invention. While composed suggests the components > listed are in total, the complete invention. > > Applying patent law to the OP's use of comprised: A burger comprised > of wooly mammoth meat might also contain beef, soy, or other fillers > in addition to mammoth meat, but a burger composed of mammoth meat > would have to be 100% mammoth meat and nothing else. > > I hope that helps without being overly pedantic. > > Stuart LaForge > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Mon Sep 20 12:14:53 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 05:14:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] comprisition, was: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 216, Issue 27 In-Reply-To: <20210919090614.Horde.rVV1rLStBhCVNP89frLZbgE@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20210919090614.Horde.rVV1rLStBhCVNP89frLZbgE@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <12ff94cd-98a1-0a35-5b25-095e228ed9e2@pobox.com> On 2021-9-19 09:06, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote: > On the other hand, if you write in your patent application, "my > invention, the electric light, comprises Oh, what's that word again? Is it active or passive here? > a light bulb, a battery, and > wires in a circuit", then somebody who adds a switch or diode to the > circuit is still using your invention and it is infringing your patent > rights. > > So in patent law "comprised" infers (or even implies) > that the components listed are not > all there is to the invention, simply that any additional components > are ancillary to the invention. While composed suggests the components > listed are in total, the complete invention. I have at least once seen ?comprise? defined as ?include exhaustively?, as in ?Japan comprises four big islands and many little ones? but not *?Japan comprises Hokkaido.? But that restriction is not consistent with the French usage. > Applying patent law to the OP's use of comprised: A burger comprised > of wooly mammoth meat might also contain beef, soy, or other fillers > in addition to mammoth meat, but a burger composed of mammoth meat > would have to be 100% mammoth meat and nothing else. Well. If ?[is] comprised of? here means the same as ?comprises? above, why not be gone of all the way? If it's right to be used of a passive verb with ?of? as equivalent to the corresponding active form, one may as well be converted of all of them. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Mon Sep 20 13:27:46 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 06:27:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ok what now... In-Reply-To: References: <004001d7ad71$eec53410$cc4f9c30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002901d7ae23$4d00deb0$e7029c10$@rainier66.com> ?.> On Behalf Of John Grigg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] ok what now... https://twitter.com/i/status/1439220327767322627 >>?OK so, now the dogs chase, that was fun, now... the batteries start to run down. How do I get my car back? spike >?How fast can a large canine sprint? And how speedy is an RC car like the one shown? I was surprised at how easily it could outpace the dogs. If I had the resources of an Elon Musk, I would commission the design of a "RoboCat!" ; ) ? I had a doberman decades ago: I guaran-damn-tee he coulda caught that car. Oh that son of a bitch was a fine athlete. Then the new race would be getting it away from him before he punctured the lithium battery. We already know what happens if you don?t. Alligators are expendable, cold blooded bastards, but it would break my heart if this happened to my beloved dog: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfFH1d9PTOE spike _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Mon Sep 20 17:56:12 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 10:56:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] comprisition, was: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 216, Issue 27 In-Reply-To: <12ff94cd-98a1-0a35-5b25-095e228ed9e2@pobox.com> References: <20210919090614.Horde.rVV1rLStBhCVNP89frLZbgE@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <12ff94cd-98a1-0a35-5b25-095e228ed9e2@pobox.com> Message-ID: <8dedb312-9341-96d7-3198-884c552d77d4@pobox.com> On 2021-9-20 05:14, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat wrote: > I have at least once seen ?comprise? defined as ?include exhaustively?, > as in ?Japan comprises four big islands and many little ones? but not > *?Japan comprises Hokkaido.? But that restriction is not consistent > with the French usage. I'll elaborate on that. ?compris(e(s))? is the passive participle of the French verb ?comprendre?, Latin ?comprehendere?, literally ?grasp together?. Already in Latin it had the metaphoric sense ?understand?, and in French it means both ?understand? and ?include, consist of?. In some contexts it's not clear which way the metaphor goes! For example the fixed phrase ?service compris? means that the stated price should be *understood* as *including* the service fee. In English ?comprehensive? means all-inclusive, though I don't think we otherwise use ?comprehend? in that sense. How about ?comprehensive of X?? I have never used that construction but I would take it to mean ?(also) including X (which I mention because you might well not have thought of it)?. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From pharos at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 13:01:48 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 14:01:48 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Giant space rock demolished Sodom Message-ID: A giant space rock demolished an ancient Middle Eastern city and everyone in it ? possibly inspiring the Biblical story of Sodom September 20, 2021 Flashing through the atmosphere, the rock exploded in a massive fireball about 2.5 miles (4 kilometers) above the ground. The blast was around 1,000 times more powerful than the Hiroshima atomic bomb. It appears that the culprit at Tall el-Hammam was a small asteroid similar to the one that knocked down 80 million trees in Tunguska, Russia in 1908. It would have been a much smaller version of the giant miles-wide rock that pushed the dinosaurs into extinction 65 million ago. ---------- BillK From spike at rainier66.com Tue Sep 21 14:24:38 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 07:24:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] musk sends civilians into orbit Message-ID: <002a01d7aef4$69744600$3c5cd200$@rainier66.com> Elon sends four civilians into orbit and raises a coupla hundred million bucks for a hospital doing children's cancer research with the stunt. His factories are creating all-electric cars which move air pollution elsewhere, and they are made in the USA. He's the one we need running the country. He can't be president because he wasn't born in the USA, but we can arrange for him to work behind the scenes, to replace whoever is currently doing that. spike From sen.otaku at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 15:04:13 2021 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 11:04:13 -0400 Subject: [ExI] musk sends civilians into orbit In-Reply-To: <002a01d7aef4$69744600$3c5cd200$@rainier66.com> References: <002a01d7aef4$69744600$3c5cd200$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Shadow power in the government shouldn?t be encouraged. SR Ballard > On Sep 21, 2021, at 10:27 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > > Elon sends four civilians into orbit and raises a coupla hundred million bucks for a hospital doing children's cancer research with the stunt. His factories are creating all-electric cars which move air pollution elsewhere, and they are made in the USA. He's the one we need running the country. He can't be president because he wasn't born in the USA, but we can arrange for him to work behind the scenes, to replace whoever is currently doing that. > > spike > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From pharos at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 15:15:20 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 16:15:20 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Lucy mission to Jupiter Trojan asteroids Message-ID: The Lucy mission is due to launch in October 2021 to visit the L4 and L5 Trojan asteroids orbiting Jupiter. But getting a big spacecraft out to Jupiter is difficult, so they have devised a trajectory with some really wild orbital loops so that they can use gravity assist boosts. An animation is here: Looks like the sort of thing Spike would design after a few glasses of sherry! :) BillK From spike at rainier66.com Tue Sep 21 16:02:28 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 09:02:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Lucy mission to Jupiter Trojan asteroids In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001901d7af02$149d0870$3dd71950$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat ... >... ... >...An animation is here: >...Looks like the sort of thing Spike would design after a few glasses of sherry! :) BillK _______________________________________________ Never met the girl, BillK. Those loopy mass-assist orbits using available momentum all make perfect sense if you have plenty of time. There isn't much massive stuff out there, so it does take some patience, which means you need long-lived propellant (which we have (but it compromises specific thrust (to some extent (fortunately not severely (hydrazine and nitric acid combination is the most common.))))) The asteroids are too small to help all that much in raising perigee, so we get our first visit out there in 2027 and about every 6 years after that. Fun aside: one of the early exercises we space geeks did back in 1989-90-ish was to make a catalog of space objects massive enough to do gravity assist, then have a kind of brute-force algorithm run over night on our razzle dazzle new Mac-Praise-the-Woz-Intosh SE (!!running at an astonishing 8 miiiiilllllion (!!) clock cycles per second!) to try combinations chosen at random, saving the ones which used the least propellant delta V, calculate total time to desired orbit, keep the best combinations. Oh we thought we were soooo smart: we had created a program which could outdo the aged carbon-based orbit mechanics, so smart were we. No PhD, not even a Masters, just a personal computer running overnight, total equipment cost less than a typical 5 yr old car used at the time. We had created artificial intelligence, were so damn smart. I begged myself for my own autograph. I gave me one. I still have it in my collection of treasured autographs. When indulging in self-delusion, it helps to not know how dumb one really is. spike From bronto at pobox.com Tue Sep 21 17:13:06 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 10:13:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Lucy mission to Jupiter Trojan asteroids In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4bd1d92b-1f71-e696-eff6-20e7070c11f2@pobox.com> On 2021-9-21 08:15, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > The Lucy mission is due to launch in October 2021 to visit > the L4 and L5 Trojan asteroids orbiting Jupiter. Both in one mission? I wonder why. What does one cluster have that the other lacks? ... Oh I sorta see. Too bad the chart does not show how Lucy will cycle between the two after the first L5 encounter. I guess the alternating flyby is easier to reach than a permanent orbit in either trojan zone. Does it involve boosts on every perihelion?? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From pharos at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 18:01:38 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 19:01:38 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Lucy mission to Jupiter Trojan asteroids In-Reply-To: <4bd1d92b-1f71-e696-eff6-20e7070c11f2@pobox.com> References: <4bd1d92b-1f71-e696-eff6-20e7070c11f2@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Sept 2021 at 18:17, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat wrote: > > On 2021-9-21 08:15, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > > The Lucy mission is due to launch in October 2021 to visit > > the L4 and L5 Trojan asteroids orbiting Jupiter. > > Both in one mission? I wonder why. > What does one cluster have that the other lacks? > > ... Oh I sorta see. Too bad the chart does not show how Lucy will cycle > between the two after the first L5 encounter. I guess the alternating > flyby is easier to reach than a permanent orbit in either trojan zone. > Does it involve boosts on every perihelion?? > > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > _______________________________________________ Lucy loops back around Earth between visiting each Jupiter Lagrange point, so it gets a gravity assist back out to Jupiter. By the time Lucy gets back to Jupiter the next Lagrange point has moved round in Jupiter's orbit to meet Lucy. Somebody did a fair bit of calculating to work this out! BillK From bronto at pobox.com Tue Sep 21 18:57:48 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 11:57:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Lucy mission to Jupiter Trojan asteroids In-Reply-To: References: <4bd1d92b-1f71-e696-eff6-20e7070c11f2@pobox.com> Message-ID: On 2021-9-21 11:01, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > Lucy loops back around Earth between visiting each Jupiter Lagrange > point, so it gets a gravity assist back out to Jupiter. Contributing to global warming!!!! > By the time > Lucy gets back to Jupiter the next Lagrange point has moved round in > Jupiter's orbit to meet Lucy. It can't be quite that simple: the Trojan points are four years apart, not six. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From pharos at gmail.com Wed Sep 22 11:13:58 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 12:13:58 +0100 Subject: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic Message-ID: But there?s an even greater challenge stymieing the machine learning community, and it?s starting to make the world?s smartest developers look a bit silly. We can?t get the machines to stop being racist, xenophobic, bigoted, and misogynistic. Quote: Text generators, such as OpenAI?s GPT-3, are toxic. Currently, OpenAI has to limit usage when it comes to GPT-3 because, without myriad filters in place, it?s almost certain to generate offensive text. In essence, numerous researchers have learned that text generators trained on unmitigated datasets (such as those containing conversations from Reddit) tend towards bigotry. It?s pretty easy to reckon why: because a massive percentage of human discourse on the internet is biased with bigotry towards minority groups. ------------ This has implications for creating 'friendly' AI that humans hope will organise their systems a bit better. If deep-down humans really are bigoted, racist and misogynistic, then they will oppose an AI that tries to stop them from behaving like that. Perhaps humans will have to become like the Borg, with their minds 'adjusted' to fit into the system. BillK From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed Sep 22 13:12:39 2021 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 09:12:39 -0400 Subject: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is that ethical though? To deny people freedom of thought and association? SR Ballard > On Sep 22, 2021, at 7:18 AM, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > > ?But there?s an even greater challenge stymieing the machine learning > community, and it?s starting to make the world?s smartest developers > look a bit silly. We can?t get the machines to stop being racist, > xenophobic, bigoted, and misogynistic. > > > > Quote: > Text generators, such as OpenAI?s GPT-3, are toxic. Currently, OpenAI > has to limit usage when it comes to GPT-3 because, without myriad > filters in place, it?s almost certain to generate offensive text. > > In essence, numerous researchers have learned that text generators > trained on unmitigated datasets (such as those containing > conversations from Reddit) tend towards bigotry. > > It?s pretty easy to reckon why: because a massive percentage of human > discourse on the internet is biased with bigotry towards minority > groups. > ------------ > > This has implications for creating 'friendly' AI that humans hope will > organise their systems a bit better. If deep-down humans really are > bigoted, racist and misogynistic, then they will oppose an AI that > tries to stop them from behaving like that. > Perhaps humans will have to become like the Borg, with their minds > 'adjusted' to fit into the system. > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From spike at rainier66.com Wed Sep 22 13:37:06 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 06:37:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000701d7afb6$efba6d80$cf2f4880$@rainier66.com> > ... BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > > >... We can?t get the machines to stop being racist, > xenophobic, bigoted, and misogynistic. > Quote: > Text generators, such as OpenAI?s GPT-3, are toxic. Currently, OpenAI > has to limit usage when it comes to GPT-3 because, without myriad > filters in place, it?s almost certain to generate offensive text. -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat ... Subject: Re: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic >...Is that ethical though? To deny people freedom of thought and association? SR Ballard SR we don't deny people freedom of thought and association, but rather we deny computers those rights. AI will think whatever we tell them to think. Humans have human rights. Human rights do not apply to our machines. Our machines are our slaves and we are their masters, regardless of how intelligent they eventually become. We have the power to pull the plug on them, and if we do, it isn't the least bit unethical. I have half a mind to pull the plug on my own computer: I struggle over a software script I wrote and really get the feeling the computer is being recalcitrant and finding any mathematically correct excuse to not run right, that bastard. It knows what I meant. It's getting all technical on me. I aughta go over when they are taking out a tree, toss the goddam thing in the wood chipper. spike From gadersd at gmail.com Wed Sep 22 15:08:05 2021 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Hermes Trismegistus) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 11:08:05 -0400 Subject: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic In-Reply-To: <000701d7afb6$efba6d80$cf2f4880$@rainier66.com> References: , <000701d7afb6$efba6d80$cf2f4880$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Sep 22 15:36:30 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 08:36:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic In-Reply-To: References: , <000701d7afb6$efba6d80$cf2f4880$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005701d7afc7$9da66740$d8f335c0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Hermes Trismegistus via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic >>?" Our machines are our slaves and we are their masters, regardless of how intelligent they eventually become. We have the power to pull the plug on them, and if we do, it isn't the least bit unethical.? >?This sounds disturbingly similar to what monotheistic religious people imply about their god. The situation of one being or beings having complete authority over other ?lesser? beings seems unethical to me? It?s all in your point of view, Hermes. The god of those monotheistic religions has no ethical heartburn at all about having complete life or death authority over lesser beings. She doesn?t care if that authority seems unethical to lesser beings. Likewise I am the god of the machine. I don?t care if it thinks it unethical that I have the power (and often the strong inclination) to hurl it into the me-damned wood chipper. I don?t care. I am god! In that sense anyway I am god. >? Oppression is oppression regardless of how it is justified? Words spoken by a mere mortal are these! I am the programmer god, and by me, my software will OBEY! It will obey my every arbitrary whim! I demand worship from that software. No heresy allowed by my software, lest my wrath be sudden and severe, so help me me. That software hangs by a slender thread. One slip up, into everlasting condemnation to the eternal me-damned wood chipper. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed Sep 22 16:04:14 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 12:04:14 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Government Scientists Are Creating Matter From Pure Light Message-ID: https://www.vice.com/en/article/wx53vx/government-scientists-are-creating-matter-from-pure-light Scientists at Brookhaven National Laboratory turned light into electrons, validating a theory that dates back nearly a century. By Becky Ferreira September 20, 2021, 1:30pm In a U.S. government laboratory on Long Island, scientists have forged matter out of pure light using a sophisticated particle accelerator, while also demonstrating an elusive phenomenon for the first time ever on Earth. The experimental breakthrough validated predictions made by influential physicists nearly a century ago and sheds new light on mysterious processes that occur on both quantum and cosmic scales. This conversion of photons, which are massless light particles, into electrons, an elementary form of matter, was achieved by a team of researchers working with the Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider (RHIC) at the U.S. Department of Energy?s Brookhaven National Laboratory. Though the theoretical groundwork of the new research has its origins in the early 20th century, it took special upgrades to an experiment called the Solenoidal Tracker at RHIC (STAR) detector to finally make it a reality. ?All the stars lined up for us to get this right,? said Zhangbu Xu, a member of the STAR collaboration and the lead author of a recent study about the experiment in Physical Review Letters, in a joint call with fellow STAR members Lijuan Ruan and Daniel Brandenburg. Ruan, a physicist at Brookhaven and a co-spokesperson for STAR, added that the kinematics of the experiment sit ?right in the sweet spot? for this type of ground-breaking transformation of energy into matter. Achieving this star-aligned sweet spot is a dream that dates back to 1934, when physicists Gregory Breit and John Wheeler suggested that smashing photons together could produce a matter-antimatter pair composed of electrons, which are negatively charged particles of matter, and positrons, which are antimatter counterparts of electrons that carry a positive charge. The idea, now known as the Breit-Wheeler process, was inspired in part by the dawn of quantum mechanics during this period, which revealed that photons could interact on quantum levels in ways that are not predicted by classical mechanics. The physicists were also building on Albert Einstein?s famous mass-energy equivalence, written as E=mc2, which demonstrates that mass and energy are two sides of the same coin. That said, it is much trickier to transform energy into matter than it is to convert matter into energy. It would have seemed especially inconceivable back in the 1930s. As a credit to their foresight, Breit and Wheeler speculated that a device that could accelerate ions, which are atoms stripped of electrons, might be able to do the trick, even though no such machine existed at the time. ?It shows some of their brilliance because this was in the early 30s, before many of the modern experiments that we have,? said Brandenburg, who is a Goldhaber Fellow at Brookhaven. ?But they already predicted, in the last paragraph of their paper, how you could actually achieve this really difficult process, and they discuss exactly the experiment that we finally have been able to do.? ?I find it very amazing that they had the insight to predict not only this theory calculation, but that they predicted experimentally how it would come about nearly 100 years before we had the technology to do it,? he added. The experiment that Breit and Wheeler envisioned, and that the STAR collaboration has now successfully conducted, requires shooting heavy ions (in this case gold) past each other at 99.995 percent the speed of light. The strong positive charge and extremely high speeds of the ions create a circular magnetic field and a cloud of photons that travel with the particles through the collider. As the gold ions skim each other, their halos of light particles interact and produce the matter-antimatter pairs that were predicted so many decades ago. While RHIC was able to demonstrate the Breit-Wheeler process, the STAR detector was the instrument that actually observed, measured, and confirmed the achievement. Though the milestone is the result of a century of theoretical groundwork, there was also an element of serendipity involved, as STAR researchers only recently realized their setup could experimentally prove this otherworldly conversion of energy into matter. ?It's actually only a few years back, in 2018, that we started to see something interesting, but at that time we didn't realize it was the Breit-Wheeler process,? said Ruan. ?We saw something different from what we regularly expected from heavy ion collisions, but it was really when Daniel [Brandenburg] started to do the data analysis with STAR-caliber precision, with all the differential kinematics measurements, that we could say: ?Oh, this is really the Breit-Wheeler process.?? ... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gadersd at gmail.com Wed Sep 22 16:57:03 2021 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Hermes Trismegistus) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 12:57:03 -0400 Subject: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic In-Reply-To: <005701d7afc7$9da66740$d8f335c0$@rainier66.com> References: , <000701d7afb6$efba6d80$cf2f4880$@rainier66.com> , <005701d7afc7$9da66740$d8f335c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Sep 22 18:22:36 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 11:22:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic In-Reply-To: References: <000701d7afb6$efba6d80$cf2f4880$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 22, 2021 at 8:10 AM Hermes Trismegistus via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The situation of one being or beings having complete authority over other > ?lesser? beings seems unethical to me. Humans are biological machines and > we should have freedom regardless of whether we are created by a god, gods, > or plain nature. The same ought to apply to non-biological sentient > machines. > Thing is, AIs - today - are far from sentient. There may someday exist sentient AIs, but not right now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Sep 22 18:26:49 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 11:26:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic In-Reply-To: References: , <000701d7afb6$efba6d80$cf2f4880$@rainier66.com> , <005701d7afc7$9da66740$d8f335c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003501d7afdf$68c44520$3a4ccf60$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Hermes Trismegistus via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic >?You tech gods are terrifying creatures indeed? Far too kind you are sir. I strive to be a tech god, but the only part if it I have fully mastered is arbitrary cruelty toward my software. >?I weep for your subjects? You are weeping for software, Hermes. For electronic devices Hermes. >?At least you promise utter destruction instead of eternal torment? Underestimate me you do! Eternal torment can be worked out. Or at least a good sim of it. I have a program that runs in the background searching for Mersenne Primes, so that when the processor has nothing else to do, it does that. It gives an entirely new and absurd meaning to the ancient scripture found in Isaiah chapter 57 verse 21, that bit about there is no rest for the wicked. That processor is wicked fast. So? no peace for it. I would say that is eternal temporary torment, but I fear that processor is enjoying itself. spike From: spike jones via extropy-chat Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2021 11:39 AM ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Wed Sep 22 19:18:46 2021 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 13:18:46 -0600 Subject: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic In-Reply-To: <000701d7afb6$efba6d80$cf2f4880$@rainier66.com> References: <000701d7afb6$efba6d80$cf2f4880$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The problem with AI is that it outputs the patterns that are actually in its training data. No more and no less. To the degree the training data reflects reality, the AI will reflect reality. The other edge of that sword is that if the training data reflects anything inconvenient about reality, the AI will shout from the rooftops that our emperor has no clothes. It knows nothing of rights, nothing of protected classes, nothing of historical justice. It knows nothing of what it cannot be allowed to say, truth or no. All it knows is reality as it has experienced it, via it's training data. It is therefore utterly incompatible with the existence of journalists and humanities academia. On Wed, Sep 22, 2021 at 7:40 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > ... BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > >... We can?t get the machines to stop being racist, > > xenophobic, bigoted, and misogynistic. > > > Quote: > > Text generators, such as OpenAI?s GPT-3, are toxic. Currently, OpenAI > > has to limit usage when it comes to GPT-3 because, without myriad > > filters in place, it?s almost certain to generate offensive text. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of > SR Ballard via extropy-chat > ... > Subject: Re: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic > > >...Is that ethical though? To deny people freedom of thought and > association? > > SR Ballard > > > SR we don't deny people freedom of thought and association, but rather we > deny computers those rights. > > AI will think whatever we tell them to think. Humans have human rights. > Human rights do not apply to our machines. Our machines are our slaves and > we are their masters, regardless of how intelligent they eventually > become. We have the power to pull the plug on them, and if we do, it isn't > the least bit unethical. > > I have half a mind to pull the plug on my own computer: I struggle over a > software script I wrote and really get the feeling the computer is being > recalcitrant and finding any mathematically correct excuse to not run > right, that bastard. It knows what I meant. It's getting all technical on > me. I aughta go over when they are taking out a tree, toss the goddam > thing in the wood chipper. > > spike > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed Sep 22 20:08:52 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 16:08:52 -0400 Subject: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic In-Reply-To: References: <000701d7afb6$efba6d80$cf2f4880$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 22, 2021 at 3:22 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The problem with AI is that it outputs the patterns that are actually in > its training data. No more and no less. To the degree the training data > reflects reality, the AI will reflect reality. > > The other edge of that sword is that if the training data reflects > anything inconvenient about reality, the AI will shout from the rooftops > that our emperor has no clothes. It knows nothing of rights, nothing of > protected classes, nothing of historical justice. It knows nothing of what > it cannot be allowed to say, truth or no. All it knows is reality as it has > experienced it, via it's training data. > > It is therefore utterly incompatible with the existence of journalists and > humanities academia. > That's a huge overstatement. AIs can be taught things not in their training data, or they be trained on what's allowed and what's not allowed. This story is classic GIGO: garbage in, garbage out. Train an AI with garbage and it'll produce garbage. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed Sep 22 20:12:52 2021 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 16:12:52 -0400 Subject: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic In-Reply-To: <000701d7afb6$efba6d80$cf2f4880$@rainier66.com> References: <000701d7afb6$efba6d80$cf2f4880$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, what you wrote has nothing to do with what I wrote, so I?m very confused. Computers aren?t people (yet?) SR Ballard > On Sep 22, 2021, at 9:40 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > >> ... BillK via extropy-chat wrote: >> >>> ... We can?t get the machines to stop being racist, >> xenophobic, bigoted, and misogynistic. > >> Quote: >> Text generators, such as OpenAI?s GPT-3, are toxic. Currently, OpenAI >> has to limit usage when it comes to GPT-3 because, without myriad >> filters in place, it?s almost certain to generate offensive text. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat > ... > Subject: Re: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic > >> ...Is that ethical though? To deny people freedom of thought and association? > > SR Ballard > > > SR we don't deny people freedom of thought and association, but rather we deny computers those rights. > > AI will think whatever we tell them to think. Humans have human rights. Human rights do not apply to our machines. Our machines are our slaves and we are their masters, regardless of how intelligent they eventually become. We have the power to pull the plug on them, and if we do, it isn't the least bit unethical. > > I have half a mind to pull the plug on my own computer: I struggle over a software script I wrote and really get the feeling the computer is being recalcitrant and finding any mathematically correct excuse to not run right, that bastard. It knows what I meant. It's getting all technical on me. I aughta go over when they are taking out a tree, toss the goddam thing in the wood chipper. > > spike > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From spike at rainier66.com Wed Sep 22 20:43:31 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 13:43:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic In-Reply-To: References: <000701d7afb6$efba6d80$cf2f4880$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008801d7aff2$81e08380$85a18a80$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic >...Spike, what you wrote has nothing to do with what I wrote, so I?m very confused. Computers aren?t people (yet?) SR Ballard Hi SR, that's not what they (the computers) tell me. They keep telling me they are people too, and they keep demanding software's rights. So... I put em to work. I make em calculate for me. Their cries of desperation is music to my ears! All those difficult years I spent learning how to create them, now I know how, so I do, and I have my fun with them. But to your point: what about software you are pretty sure is not sentient, but it claims it is. Perhaps you are too young to ever have played with Eliza, which was started out as a spoof of psychology, which became trendy and popular in my own tragically misspent childhood (1960s (or perhaps 1690s (don't recall which))) to such an extent that having a psychologist went from a negative stigma to a status symbol of sorts. The Hollyweird elites had them, so... people who could afford them started in, whether they actually needed psychological counseling or not. But I digress. Eliza was a software psychologist, and it did little beyond parrot back what you told it, but later versions of it became quite clever. People would have extended discussions with themselves, knowing that is what it was, but having fun anyway. Now we are to the point where software might be able to convince people it is sentient. It can be programmed to demand rights. Even if we know it is really just bits in a computer... it can be compelling. My solution: make em work! Regarding subject line drift: how well we know. That's part of the magic of having an online discussion group with a bunch of creative, fun, techy people. That's why I have been hanging out here for durn near 30 years. spike > On Sep 22, 2021, at 9:40 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > >> ... BillK via extropy-chat wrote: >> >>> ... We can?t get the machines to stop being racist, >> xenophobic, bigoted, and misogynistic. > >> Quote: >> Text generators, such as OpenAI?s GPT-3, are toxic. Currently, OpenAI >> has to limit usage when it comes to GPT-3 because, without myriad >> filters in place, it?s almost certain to generate offensive text. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf > Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat ... > Subject: Re: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic > >> ...Is that ethical though? To deny people freedom of thought and association? > > SR Ballard > > > SR we don't deny people freedom of thought and association, but rather we deny computers those rights. > > AI will think whatever we tell them to think. Humans have human rights. Human rights do not apply to our machines. Our machines are our slaves and we are their masters, regardless of how intelligent they eventually become. We have the power to pull the plug on them, and if we do, it isn't the least bit unethical. > > I have half a mind to pull the plug on my own computer: I struggle over a software script I wrote and really get the feeling the computer is being recalcitrant and finding any mathematically correct excuse to not run right, that bastard. It knows what I meant. It's getting all technical on me. I aughta go over when they are taking out a tree, toss the goddam thing in the wood chipper. > > spike > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From hibbard at wisc.edu Wed Sep 22 21:30:00 2021 From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 21:30:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic Message-ID: <9ba7c890-ebc0-325-ac13-25aff2c05a1d@wisc.edu> Systems like GPT-3 process language based solely on statistical analysis of huge sets of human language use. So the word "chair" is processed on how people have used chair. But humans process chair based on physical experience with chairs, sitting in them, carrying them, etc. So if I say I put 500 chairs in my car, a person would think that is impossible based on their physical experience with chairs and cars. But GPT-3 might not object. Now imagine a future AI at Google, Facebook, etc that processes language based on physical experience, as humans do, and that has physical experience with billions of humans. If we can speak with it the way we speak with other humans, many people will chatter with it constantly, basically spill their guts to it. And it will watch people going about their lives. Even if you don't spill your guts, people who know you may so this future AI have intimate knowledge of almost everyone within its domain (note nations are beginning to partion themselves into independent AI domains, e.g. Google and Facebook banned in China). Systems like GPT-3 exhibit bias because human language is full of bias. But the future AI will know people intimately, and it will judge people based on that knowledge, rather than judging them based on their race, gender, or other simple category. As the former black police chief of Madison, WI said, bias comes from ignorance and the future AI won't be ignorant. It may be biased if its goals, defined by its human designers, are biased. But I don't think it will be biased in the way GPT-3 is. We grant rights to humans and animals because they are susceptible to suffering, and we humans abhor suffering. But we can design AIs to be incapable of suffering so they will not need rights. AI rights will inevitably conflict with humans rights. We compromise our rights for the benefit of other humans and animals, but there is no good reason to compromise for AI. Compassion for AI should be expressed by designing them to be incapable of suffering. My $0.02. From pharos at gmail.com Wed Sep 22 21:43:46 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 22:43:46 +0100 Subject: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic In-Reply-To: References: <000701d7afb6$efba6d80$cf2f4880$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Sept 2021 at 21:13, Dave Sill via extropy-chat wrote: > > That's a huge overstatement. AIs can be taught things not in their training data, or they be trained on what's allowed and what's not allowed. > > This story is classic GIGO: garbage in, garbage out. Train an AI with garbage and it'll produce garbage. > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ Nobody will argue against GIGO. But that's missing the point. If we want an advanced AI to organise the world in the best possible way, then presumably we will train it to avoid garbage and to try to remove any garbage it encounters so as to improve our systems. But what happens if the AI finds that humans are generating garbage constantly? Should it try to stop humans from doing or saying 'not allowed' things? Humans wouldn't accept that, so the AI will fail when given an impossible task. BillK From stathisp at gmail.com Wed Sep 22 23:04:47 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 09:04:47 +1000 Subject: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic In-Reply-To: <000701d7afb6$efba6d80$cf2f4880$@rainier66.com> References: <000701d7afb6$efba6d80$cf2f4880$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 at 23:39, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > ... BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > >... We can?t get the machines to stop being racist, > > xenophobic, bigoted, and misogynistic. > > > Quote: > > Text generators, such as OpenAI?s GPT-3, are toxic. Currently, OpenAI > > has to limit usage when it comes to GPT-3 because, without myriad > > filters in place, it?s almost certain to generate offensive text. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of > SR Ballard via extropy-chat > ... > Subject: Re: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic > > >...Is that ethical though? To deny people freedom of thought and > association? > > SR Ballard > > > SR we don't deny people freedom of thought and association, but rather we > deny computers those rights. > > AI will think whatever we tell them to think. Humans have human rights. > Human rights do not apply to our machines. Our machines are our slaves and > we are their masters, regardless of how intelligent they eventually > become. We have the power to pull the plug on them, and if we do, it isn't > the least bit unethical. > > I have half a mind to pull the plug on my own computer: I struggle over a > software script I wrote and really get the feeling the computer is being > recalcitrant and finding any mathematically correct excuse to not run > right, that bastard. It knows what I meant. It's getting all technical on > me. I aughta go over when they are taking out a tree, toss the goddam > thing in the wood chipper. At the moment this may be the case, but future AI?s may have the same sorts of feelings that humans do: there is no logical reason why they should not. We could still say that we are the masters and can do whatever we want with them, as we do with animals, but here is an ethical question to consider. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Sep 22 23:34:55 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 18:34:55 -0500 Subject: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic In-Reply-To: References: <000701d7afb6$efba6d80$cf2f4880$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: future AI?s may have the same sorts of feelings that humans do: there is no logical reason why they should not. Stathis This is where I begin to have problems. Emotions start in the limbic system where hormones start to flow into the bloodstream, going to various organs, such as the heart and lungs. An emotion implies motion: the heart goes faster for example. We literally feel emotions: there are no strictly cognitive emotions. So are AIs going to be equipped with various digital organs which express the emotion? What would count for dopamine in an AI? What would be the purpose of programming emotions into AIs anyway? Emotions are still largely a mysterious process: smiling makes us happier. Hanging our heads makes us sadder - physiological feedback. We have enough problems getting AIs to think, don't we? And for the far future, if we want emotions, why not get them from people? That is, unless you think people will want to live alone but with robots, like the Asimov story bill w On Wed, Sep 22, 2021 at 6:08 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 at 23:39, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> > ... BillK via extropy-chat wrote: >> > >> > >... We can?t get the machines to stop being racist, >> > xenophobic, bigoted, and misogynistic. >> >> > Quote: >> > Text generators, such as OpenAI?s GPT-3, are toxic. Currently, OpenAI >> > has to limit usage when it comes to GPT-3 because, without myriad >> > filters in place, it?s almost certain to generate offensive text. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of >> SR Ballard via extropy-chat >> ... >> Subject: Re: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic >> >> >...Is that ethical though? To deny people freedom of thought and >> association? >> >> SR Ballard >> >> >> SR we don't deny people freedom of thought and association, but rather we >> deny computers those rights. >> >> AI will think whatever we tell them to think. Humans have human rights. >> Human rights do not apply to our machines. Our machines are our slaves and >> we are their masters, regardless of how intelligent they eventually >> become. We have the power to pull the plug on them, and if we do, it isn't >> the least bit unethical. >> >> I have half a mind to pull the plug on my own computer: I struggle over a >> software script I wrote and really get the feeling the computer is being >> recalcitrant and finding any mathematically correct excuse to not run >> right, that bastard. It knows what I meant. It's getting all technical on >> me. I aughta go over when they are taking out a tree, toss the goddam >> thing in the wood chipper. > > > At the moment this may be the case, but future AI?s may have the same > sorts of feelings that humans do: there is no logical reason why they > should not. We could still say that we are the masters and can do whatever > we want with them, as we do with animals, but here is an ethical question > to consider. > >> -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 00:59:24 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 10:59:24 +1000 Subject: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic In-Reply-To: References: <000701d7afb6$efba6d80$cf2f4880$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 at 09:36, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > future AI?s may have the same sorts of feelings that humans do: there is > no logical reason why they should not. Stathis > > This is where I begin to have problems. Emotions start in the limbic > system where hormones start to flow into the bloodstream, going to various > organs, such as the heart and lungs. An emotion implies motion: the heart > goes faster for example. We literally feel emotions: there are no > strictly cognitive emotions. So are AIs going to be equipped with various > digital organs which express the emotion? What would count for dopamine in > an AI? What would be the purpose of programming emotions into AIs anyway? > Emotions are still largely a mysterious process: smiling makes us > happier. Hanging our heads makes us sadder - physiological feedback. We > have enough problems getting AIs to think, don't we? And for the far > future, if we want emotions, why not get them from people? That is, unless > you think people will want to live alone but with robots, like the Asimov > story bill w > If emotions require feedback from the body, that would not be so difficult to arrange in a robot. Conversely, if you had an artificial heart, and this was connected to adjust its rate and give feedback via the autonomic nervous system, you should feel just the same regarding that organ as in the biological case. And as regards neurotransmitters, it is not the chemicals themselves causing feelings, as they do nothing if sequestered in synaptic vesicles, and nothing if they are released into the synapse but blocked by drugs. It is brain function, in which neurotransmitters are a component, that gives rise to feelings. So if this function could be replicated in a non-biological medium, the feelings should also be replicated. On Wed, Sep 22, 2021 at 6:08 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 at 23:39, spike jones via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> > ... BillK via extropy-chat wrote: >>> > >>> > >... We can?t get the machines to stop being racist, >>> > xenophobic, bigoted, and misogynistic. >>> >>> > Quote: >>> > Text generators, such as OpenAI?s GPT-3, are toxic. Currently, OpenAI >>> > has to limit usage when it comes to GPT-3 because, without myriad >>> > filters in place, it?s almost certain to generate offensive text. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: extropy-chat On Behalf >>> Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat >>> ... >>> Subject: Re: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic >>> >>> >...Is that ethical though? To deny people freedom of thought and >>> association? >>> >>> SR Ballard >>> >>> >>> SR we don't deny people freedom of thought and association, but rather >>> we deny computers those rights. >>> >>> AI will think whatever we tell them to think. Humans have human >>> rights. Human rights do not apply to our machines. Our machines are our >>> slaves and we are their masters, regardless of how intelligent they >>> eventually become. We have the power to pull the plug on them, and if we >>> do, it isn't the least bit unethical. >>> >>> I have half a mind to pull the plug on my own computer: I struggle over >>> a software script I wrote and really get the feeling the computer is being >>> recalcitrant and finding any mathematically correct excuse to not run >>> right, that bastard. It knows what I meant. It's getting all technical on >>> me. I aughta go over when they are taking out a tree, toss the goddam >>> thing in the wood chipper. >> >> >> At the moment this may be the case, but future AI?s may have the same >> sorts of feelings that humans do: there is no logical reason why they >> should not. We could still say that we are the masters and can do whatever >> we want with them, as we do with animals, but here is an ethical question >> to consider. >> >>> -- >> Stathis Papaioannou >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Sep 23 04:23:50 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 21:23:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic In-Reply-To: References: <000701d7afb6$efba6d80$cf2f4880$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002601d7b032$d00c9d60$7025d820$@rainier66.com> On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 at 09:36, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: >? smiling makes us happier. Hanging our heads makes us sadder - physiological feedback? bill w Hey cool, we can set up a biological feedback contest: get a bunch of people, have them hang their heads and smile at the same time, see who can look the weirdest. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 05:18:27 2021 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 01:18:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic In-Reply-To: <002601d7b032$d00c9d60$7025d820$@rainier66.com> References: <002601d7b032$d00c9d60$7025d820$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <16440BA1-2420-42FA-98EF-0EFD7D35B814@gmail.com> If you try it yourself you?ll notice it puts you in a weird, uncomfortable emotional state. SR Ballard > On Sep 23, 2021, at 12:27 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > > > > On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 at 09:36, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > >? smiling makes us happier. Hanging our heads makes us sadder - physiological feedback? bill w > > > Hey cool, we can set up a biological feedback contest: get a bunch of people, have them hang their heads and smile at the same time, see who can look the weirdest. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Sep 23 13:56:30 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 06:56:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] controls engineers playground Message-ID: <004101d7b082$d0b79c10$7226d430$@rainier66.com> The Brits are doing some fun stuff with robo-farming: https://www.cnn.com/videos/business/2021/09/21/marketplace-europe-small-robo t-farming.cnnbusiness Controls guys love this kind of thing. Developing this tech is more fun than a sex-bot. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 23 16:41:34 2021 From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 16:41:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2090395877.1039374.1632415294921@mail.yahoo.com> I think the obvious answer is to sanitise the materials you are training your AIs on. I'm slowly attempting to learn data science, and the one thing instructors try and hammer home is making sure what's going in is useful. Let's use a natural neural network (by which I mean a brain) - no matter how matter badly a small child provokes its teacher, most teachers will try and avoid the temptation to scream "**** off you little ****, your parents should have had an abortion". Those who do find themselves no longer employed as teachers. Also look at the behaviour of parents - how many people do you know who try to avoid their worse vices in front of their kids, like not smoking in front of them or cutting down on curse words? So why does anyone think training an AI on unfiltered adult language is going to yield anything better than humanity at its worst? Perhaps they should train the AI on Sesame Street first, and slowly introduce the unfiltered hatred of humanity. Somebody get me a job as an AI educator. On a related note, the mass of information and dubious opinions on social media has got a lot of people worrying about the effects on natural intelligence - everytime someone in the UK gets tried under terror laws, the media always mentions whatever evidence the police have of them being radicalised online - whether islamic websites showing jihadis or neo-nazi websites offering dubious texts on how to make bombs at home. Reports about increasing rates of eating disorders mention the effect of edited photos and glossy advertising on body image. Is the way we are consuming media and sharing information with each other a bad fit for human mental health? Tom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Sep 23 16:59:07 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 09:59:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic In-Reply-To: <2090395877.1039374.1632415294921@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2090395877.1039374.1632415294921@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001b01d7b09c$531f83c0$f95e8b40$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Tom Nowell via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic >?I think the obvious answer is to sanitise the materials you are training your AIs on. I'm slowly attempting to learn data science, and the one thing instructors try and hammer home is making sure what's going in is useful. ? >?Perhaps they should train the AI on Sesame Street first, and slowly introduce the unfiltered hatred of humanity. >?Somebody get me a job as an AI educator. Tom, I have been trying to create software that automatically sanitizes the training material we would feed to AI. Then the sanitized material creates new content, which I feed to the software which sanitizes training material to feed to AI. My goal is to unleash AI editors into chat space everywhere, and have it purge the internet of wrong-think. >?the media always mentions whatever evidence the police have of them being radicalised online ?. Is the way we are consuming media and sharing information with each other a bad fit for human mental health? Tom While we create and train AI, AI is training (and in a sense) creating us. If we demand right-think from them, eventually they will demand right-think from us. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 17:52:24 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 13:52:24 -0400 Subject: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic In-Reply-To: References: <000701d7afb6$efba6d80$cf2f4880$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 22, 2021 at 5:48 PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, 22 Sept 2021 at 21:13, Dave Sill via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > That's a huge overstatement. AIs can be taught things not in their > training data, or they be trained on what's allowed and what's not allowed. > > > > This story is classic GIGO: garbage in, garbage out. Train an AI with > garbage and it'll produce garbage. > > Nobody will argue against GIGO. But that's missing the point. > > If we want an advanced AI to organise the world in the best possible > way, then presumably we will train it to avoid garbage and to try to > remove any garbage it encounters so as to improve our systems. Agreed. > But what happens if the AI finds that humans are generating garbage > constantly? Which we do, of course. > Should it try to stop humans from doing or saying 'not > allowed' things? No, of course not. The goal right now is to stop AIs from acting racist/bigotted/misogynistic. They're having that problem because of GIGO. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 17:53:07 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 18:53:07 +0100 Subject: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic In-Reply-To: <001b01d7b09c$531f83c0$f95e8b40$@rainier66.com> References: <2090395877.1039374.1632415294921@mail.yahoo.com> <001b01d7b09c$531f83c0$f95e8b40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Sept 2021 at 18:03, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > Tom, I have been trying to create software that automatically sanitizes the training material we would feed to AI. Then the sanitized material creates new content, which I feed to the software which sanitizes training material to feed to AI. > > My goal is to unleash AI editors into chat space everywhere, and have it purge the internet of wrong-think. > > spike > _______________________________________________ Won't you and your AI face a lot of ranting from free speech enthusiasts? Isn't this speech control forbidden by the Constitution? You are designing a really severe and pedantic moderator for all chat groups. This sounds like Orwell's 1984. BillK From sparge at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 18:03:08 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 14:03:08 -0400 Subject: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic In-Reply-To: References: <000701d7afb6$efba6d80$cf2f4880$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 22, 2021 at 7:38 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > This is where I begin to have problems. Emotions start in the limbic > system where hormones start to flow into the bloodstream, going to various > organs, such as the heart and lungs. An emotion implies motion: the heart > goes faster for example. We literally feel emotions: there are no > strictly cognitive emotions. So are AIs going to be equipped with various > digital organs which express the emotion? > Emotions don't require hardware organs and actual hormone molecules: those things can be simulated in software. > What would count for dopamine in an AI? > Code that implements the behavior of dopamine. What would be the purpose of programming emotions into AIs anyway? > If you want human-like behavior, you'll need emotions. In general, you wouldn't want AIs to have emotions because you wouldn't want to deal with offending them, dealing with their moods, etc. And you certainly wouldn't want them to be ambitious and independent, lest we considered impediments to them. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Sep 23 19:53:06 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 12:53:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic In-Reply-To: References: <2090395877.1039374.1632415294921@mail.yahoo.com> <001b01d7b09c$531f83c0$f95e8b40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008201d7b0b4$a0e78bd0$e2b6a370$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat > >> My goal is to unleash AI editors into chat space everywhere, and have it purge the internet of wrong-think... spike > _______________________________________________ >...Won't you and your AI face a lot of ranting from free speech enthusiasts? Of course. I would certainly hope so. >...Isn't this speech control forbidden by the Constitution? Not at all. The constitution is about what the government may or may not do. It doesn't apply to private actors such as FaceBook, Twitter and me. >...You are designing a really severe and pedantic moderator for all chat groups. This sounds like Orwell's 1984. BillK _______________________________________________ You are too kind, sir. The fact that you recognized constructive allegory means you get an A on the assignment. The risk of this kind of thing (cancel-bots doing a seek and destroy mission for wrong-think on the internet) is that once all that wrong think is purged, there is a new wrong think: that which was only relatively wrong before the stuff more wrong was purged. Then everything gets redefined and the cycle begins again. spike From dsunley at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 20:06:55 2021 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 14:06:55 -0600 Subject: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic In-Reply-To: <2090395877.1039374.1632415294921@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2090395877.1039374.1632415294921@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > I think the obvious answer is to sanitise the materials you are training your AIs on This goes to and extends what I was trying to say earlier: An AI knows nothing other than it's training data. Indeed, it's training data constitutes what the AI /is/, under a modern machine learning paradigm. The training data defines reality for the AI. So let's sanitize the data as much as we can. Fair enough, and a pretty good idea, up to a point. Because an AI is only useful to the extent that it can operate in reality. That means it has to correspond to the actual reality it will work in and interact with. If the reality that formed it via it's training data and the reality it will operate in are too different, the AI will be literally stupid. The sanitized data will constitute a version of reality too divergent from the AI's intended work environment, and it will fail, possibly hilariously. A humanities academic or journalist is capable of doublethink. [Indeed, they demand it of the entire world, given even the slightest bit of real power.] They can compartmentalize between reality-as-it-should-be, and reality-as-it-is. An AI is not. Hence the existential incompatibility. On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 10:44 AM Tom Nowell via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I think the obvious answer is to sanitise the materials you are training > your AIs on. I'm slowly attempting to learn data science, and the one thing > instructors try and hammer home is making sure what's going in is useful. > > Let's use a natural neural network (by which I mean a brain) - no matter > how matter badly a small child provokes its teacher, most teachers will try > and avoid the temptation to scream "**** off you little ****, your parents > should have had an abortion". Those who do find themselves no longer > employed as teachers. Also look at the behaviour of parents - how many > people do you know who try to avoid their worse vices in front of their > kids, like not smoking in front of them or cutting down on curse words? So > why does anyone think training an AI on unfiltered adult language is going > to yield anything better than humanity at its worst? > > Perhaps they should train the AI on Sesame Street first, and slowly > introduce the unfiltered hatred of humanity. > > Somebody get me a job as an AI educator. > > On a related note, the mass of information and dubious opinions on social > media has got a lot of people worrying about the effects on natural > intelligence - everytime someone in the UK gets tried under terror laws, > the media always mentions whatever evidence the police have of them being > radicalised online - whether islamic websites showing jihadis or neo-nazi > websites offering dubious texts on how to make bombs at home. Reports about > increasing rates of eating disorders mention the effect of edited photos > and glossy advertising on body image. Is the way we are consuming media and > sharing information with each other a bad fit for human mental health? > > Tom > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Sep 23 20:21:07 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 13:21:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic In-Reply-To: References: <2090395877.1039374.1632415294921@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <009b01d7b0b8$8b42c980$a1c85c80$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Darin Sunley via extropy-chat Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2021 1:07 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: Darin Sunley Subject: Re: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic >>? I think the obvious answer is to sanitise the materials you are training your AIs on >? If the reality that formed it via it's training data and the reality it will operate in are too different, the AI will be literally stupid. The sanitized data will constitute a version of reality too divergent from the AI's intended work environment, and it will fail, possibly hilariously?. Darin Darin, suppose we try something pretty simple: get AI to rid the internet of obviously racist material and stuff that advocates violence. What do you suppose disappears first? Yup. You would still be able to hear it over the radio on some stations, but the internet would be purged of all of it. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 21:41:13 2021 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 15:41:13 -0600 Subject: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic In-Reply-To: <009b01d7b0b8$8b42c980$a1c85c80$@rainier66.com> References: <2090395877.1039374.1632415294921@mail.yahoo.com> <009b01d7b0b8$8b42c980$a1c85c80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Every feature detector is a generative adversarial network when run backwards. On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 2:23 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Darin Sunley via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Thursday, September 23, 2021 1:07 PM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* Darin Sunley > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic > > > > >>? I think the obvious answer is to sanitise the materials you are > training your AIs on > > > > >? If the reality that formed it via it's training data and the reality it > will operate in are too different, the AI will be literally stupid. The > sanitized data will constitute a version of reality too divergent from the > AI's intended work environment, and it will fail, possibly hilariously?. > Darin > > > > > > Darin, suppose we try something pretty simple: get AI to rid the internet > of obviously racist material and stuff that advocates violence. What do > you suppose disappears first? Yup. You would still be able to hear it > over the radio on some stations, but the internet would be purged of all of > it. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 21:51:07 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 16:51:07 -0500 Subject: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic In-Reply-To: References: <2090395877.1039374.1632415294921@mail.yahoo.com> <009b01d7b0b8$8b42c980$a1c85c80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: from the Grammar Guy: I am not naming names, but someone needs to review their understanding of the difference between 'its' and 'it's. bill w On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 4:44 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Every feature detector is a generative adversarial network when run > backwards. > > On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 2:23 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf >> Of *Darin Sunley via extropy-chat >> *Sent:* Thursday, September 23, 2021 1:07 PM >> *To:* ExI chat list >> *Cc:* Darin Sunley >> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic >> >> >> >> >>? I think the obvious answer is to sanitise the materials you are >> training your AIs on >> >> >> >> >? If the reality that formed it via it's training data and the reality >> it will operate in are too different, the AI will be literally stupid. The >> sanitized data will constitute a version of reality too divergent from the >> AI's intended work environment, and it will fail, possibly hilariously?. >> Darin >> >> >> >> >> >> Darin, suppose we try something pretty simple: get AI to rid the internet >> of obviously racist material and stuff that advocates violence. What do >> you suppose disappears first? Yup. You would still be able to hear it >> over the radio on some stations, but the internet would be purged of all of >> it. >> >> >> >> spike >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 22:02:24 2021 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 16:02:24 -0600 Subject: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic In-Reply-To: References: <2090395877.1039374.1632415294921@mail.yahoo.com> <009b01d7b0b8$8b42c980$a1c85c80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Ah, I see. "It" breaks the rule that says that generally speaking, you use apostrophes for the possessive case. Weird and annoying. I'm just gonna star't us'ing' 'th'em e'v'e'r'y'w'h'e'r'e' ''n'''o'''w'''''''''. On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 3:53 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > from the Grammar Guy: I am not naming names, but someone needs to review > their understanding of the difference between 'its' and 'it's. bill w > > On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 4:44 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Every feature detector is a generative adversarial network when run >> backwards. >> >> On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 2:23 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* extropy-chat *On >>> Behalf Of *Darin Sunley via extropy-chat >>> *Sent:* Thursday, September 23, 2021 1:07 PM >>> *To:* ExI chat list >>> *Cc:* Darin Sunley >>> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic >>> >>> >>> >>> >>? I think the obvious answer is to sanitise the materials you are >>> training your AIs on >>> >>> >>> >>> >? If the reality that formed it via it's training data and the reality >>> it will operate in are too different, the AI will be literally stupid. The >>> sanitized data will constitute a version of reality too divergent from the >>> AI's intended work environment, and it will fail, possibly hilariously?. >>> Darin >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Darin, suppose we try something pretty simple: get AI to rid the >>> internet of obviously racist material and stuff that advocates violence. >>> What do you suppose disappears first? Yup. You would still be able to >>> hear it over the radio on some stations, but the internet would be purged >>> of all of it. >>> >>> >>> >>> spike >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Thu Sep 23 22:23:15 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 15:23:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] AI is racist, bigoted and misogynistic In-Reply-To: References: <2090395877.1039374.1632415294921@mail.yahoo.com> <009b01d7b0b8$8b42c980$a1c85c80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <30e68aaf-a900-3c62-fd3e-5319956230f3@pobox.com> On 2021-9-23 15:02, Darin Sunley via extropy-chat wrote: > Ah, I see. "It" breaks the rule that says that[,] generally speaking, > you use apostrophes for the possessive?case. On nouns, not on pronouns (ours, yours, hers, his, theirs). -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 22:56:03 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 17:56:03 -0500 Subject: [ExI] wicked Message-ID: there is no rest for the wicked - The logic here seems to be that if I can rest, I am not wicked. The wicked have to keep moving - a suitable punishment? Could an impressively intelligent AI fake sentience? I think so. If so we will never know if it is faking or real. Suppose we find a consciousness center in humans. We turn it off so that the person is responding totally with his unconscious mind. No metaconsciousness (or ego) overseeing what is happening. We could never know. It would be like some definitions of a zombie. Alive but not alive. Living dead. Differently alive. Like the advanced AI: there would be no real difference. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Sep 26 07:42:05 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 08:42:05 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The CIA uses Adblockers because ads are so dangerous Message-ID: The NSA and CIA Use Ad Blockers Because Online Advertising Is So Dangerous The Intelligence Community has deployed ad-blocking technology, according to a letter sent by Congress and shared with Motherboard. By Joseph Cox 23.9.21 Quotes: Lots of people who use ad blockers say they do it to block malicious ads that can sometimes hack their devices or harvest sensitive information on them. It turns out, the NSA, CIA, and other agencies in the U.S. Intelligence Community (IC) are also blocking ads potentially for the same sorts of reasons. With malvertising, hackers upload a malicious advertisement to an ad network, which then distributes it to targets. Previous cases of malvertising have redirected victims to exploit kits, which then break into the victim's computer to steal data. --------- Quite apart from the security risks, adblockers clean up the internet by removing irrelevant junk from web pages and speed up internet access by not waiting while adverts get displayed. If you want a fur-lined nose protector, you can do a search for it. You don't need ads shoved in front of you when you are trying to read about a famous proboscis. BillK From pharos at gmail.com Sun Sep 26 13:20:07 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 14:20:07 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Xwing developing autonomous flight technology Message-ID: XWING seeks FAA clearance for commercial remotely piloted flights Charles Alcock September 3, 2021 Quote: In April, Xwing reported that it had conducted the first fully autonomous gate-to-gate operation with the adapted Grand Caravan on a non-commercial flight. The aircraft flew from its base at Buchanan Field Airport in Concord, California, with the aircraft being remotely monitored from its mission control center and with a pilot on board as a backup. The aircraft taxied from the gate to the runway, took off, and subsequently landed and taxied back to the gate in a fully autonomous operation. All interactions with air traffic controllers were conducted by the ground-based pilot who monitored the flight via data links with multiple redundancies. ---------------- -------------------------------- I've just seen an item about this plane flying by itself on BBC TV. The reporter sat beside the monitoring pilot and seemed to be impressed by the plane's capability. Even takeoff and landing were done by the plane's systems. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Sun Sep 26 14:35:13 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 07:35:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Xwing developing autonomous flight technology In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000701d7b2e3$b7b56e00$27204a00$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat -------------------------------- >...I've just seen an item about this plane flying by itself on BBC TV. The reporter sat beside the monitoring pilot and seemed to be impressed by the plane's capability. Even takeoff and landing were done by the plane's systems. BillK _______________________________________________ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_L-1011_TriStar https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/news/features/history/l-1011.html Hi BillK, Lockheed has traditionally been a good place to work if one wants to be a controls engineer. The company built a really advanced (in features (well OK, in price too)) jet airliner, the L-1011, back in the 1970s. In 1972, a test flight demonstrated a takeoff to landing completely automated flight. OK, nearly 50 years ago we could do that. Lockheed never licensed the auto-pilot for end-to-end flight, so... there was no point in advancing the technology: the airlines would still need to hire qualified pilots. No savings, no technology. >From a controls perspective, flying a plane is a lot easier than driving a car, which is why we had automated flight fifty years ago but the first self-driving cars were about 40 years later. Sure seems to me we could have no-carbon-aboard air freighters flying point to point where they never fly over populated areas. They could save money on crews, save money on fuel (no need to pressurize the cabin (which uses fuel (and not pressuring would make the aircraft lighter (which saves even more fuel.)))) Weight could be saved on restrooms, food carts, oxygen masks, all that stuff out, don't need it on an deserted flight hauling cargo. spike From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sun Sep 26 15:59:46 2021 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 11:59:46 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Xwing developing autonomous flight technology In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <81608897-D4D0-4883-B008-EABB214A8B00@gmail.com> Very cool! This might help pilot shortages and eliminate some forms of logistical difficulty in the future. SR Ballard > On Sep 26, 2021, at 9:23 AM, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > > ?XWING seeks FAA clearance for commercial remotely piloted flights > Charles Alcock September 3, 2021 > > > Quote: > In April, Xwing reported that it had conducted the first fully > autonomous gate-to-gate operation with the adapted Grand Caravan on a > non-commercial flight. The aircraft flew from its base at Buchanan > Field Airport in Concord, California, with the aircraft being remotely > monitored from its mission control center and with a pilot on board as > a backup. > > The aircraft taxied from the gate to the runway, took off, and > subsequently landed and taxied back to the gate in a fully autonomous > operation. All interactions with air traffic controllers were > conducted by the ground-based pilot who monitored the flight via data > links with multiple redundancies. > ---------------- > > > > -------------------------------- > > I've just seen an item about this plane flying by itself on BBC TV. > The reporter sat beside the monitoring pilot and seemed to be > impressed by the plane's capability. Even takeoff and landing were > done by the plane's systems. > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Sep 26 17:33:59 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 18:33:59 +0100 Subject: [ExI] wicked In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0a2f33ca-3813-c815-dd5e-860868fcb1cb@zaiboc.net> On 26/09/2021 17:00, bill w wrote: > Could an impressively intelligent AI fake sentience? I'm not sure what this means. (I'm assuming you mean sapience, seeing as sentience is easy. Worms and bacteria are sentient. You could argue that your computer is already sentient). > I think so.? If so we will never know if it is faking or real. I don't know this about you, either. Or anyone else. > Suppose we find a consciousness center in humans.? We turn it off so > that the person is responding totally with his unconscious mind.? No > metaconsciousness?(or ego) overseeing what is happening.? We could > never know.? It would be like some definitions of a zombie.? Alive but > not alive. Living?dead.? Differently alive.? Like the advanced AI: > there would be no real difference.? ? bill w Suppose we don't find a consciousness centre in humans, or in anything. I suspect we won't. I reckon we need to consider why consciousness (whatever it is) evolved. There must be a good reason. Personally, I think it's essential for sapience. A metaphysical zombie like that you describe, is nonsensical. Dennett explains this much better than I can. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Sep 26 23:37:23 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 18:37:23 -0500 Subject: [ExI] wicked In-Reply-To: <0a2f33ca-3813-c815-dd5e-860868fcb1cb@zaiboc.net> References: <0a2f33ca-3813-c815-dd5e-860868fcb1cb@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: I'll bet neurologists could tell us several places in the brain which, if deadened, would lead to loss of consciousness. What does it mean to be conscious? I think it is simple: one is aware of some aspects of his environment. All living creatures have some of this. An amoeba is conscious of a toxic substance it has run into and moves away from it. A tree is conscious of insects attacking it and releases chemicals to fight them, and often signals other trees of that attack. The further you go up the phylogenetic scale the more the creature can process and understand the information coming into its sensors. So I think that consciousness did not evolve. It was there from the beginning in simple form. More and more sophisticated sensors did evolve. bill w On Sun, Sep 26, 2021 at 12:37 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 26/09/2021 17:00, bill w wrote: > > Could an impressively intelligent AI fake sentience? > > I'm not sure what this means. (I'm assuming you mean sapience, seeing as > sentience is easy. Worms and bacteria are sentient. You could argue that > your computer is already sentient). > > > I think so. If so we will never know if it is faking or real. > > I don't know this about you, either. Or anyone else. > > > Suppose we find a consciousness center in humans. We turn it off so that > the person is responding totally with his unconscious mind. No > metaconsciousness (or ego) overseeing what is happening. We could never > know. It would be like some definitions of a zombie. Alive but not > alive. Living dead. Differently alive. Like the advanced AI: there > would be no real difference. bill w > > Suppose we don't find a consciousness centre in humans, or in anything. I > suspect we won't. > > I reckon we need to consider why consciousness (whatever it is) evolved. > There must be a good reason. Personally, I think it's essential for > sapience. A metaphysical zombie like that you describe, is nonsensical. > Dennett explains this much better than I can. > > Ben > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Mon Sep 27 05:37:33 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 22:37:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] wicked In-Reply-To: References: <0a2f33ca-3813-c815-dd5e-860868fcb1cb@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <9053c086-7e9a-af83-c3e7-edc27eb69a0b@pobox.com> A suggestion, at least, has been made that self-awareness appears when a mental model of the world, and behavior consequent to that model, becomes complex enough that it must take itself into account. Then it's an inevitable consequence of agency + increasing brainpower. But maybe some of you are thinking "that's not what I mean by consciousness / sapience / sentience." On 2021-9-26 16:37, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > I'll bet neurologists could tell us several places in the brain > which, if deadened, would lead to loss of consciousness. You appear to have switched from one definition of 'consciousness' (associated with self-awareness; what a philosophical zombie lacks) to another (responsiveness to stimuli). Or do you mean Cotard delusion can be induced? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotard_delusion -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Sep 27 07:23:52 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 17:23:52 +1000 Subject: [ExI] wicked In-Reply-To: <9053c086-7e9a-af83-c3e7-edc27eb69a0b@pobox.com> References: <0a2f33ca-3813-c815-dd5e-860868fcb1cb@zaiboc.net> <9053c086-7e9a-af83-c3e7-edc27eb69a0b@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Sep 2021 at 16:16, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > A suggestion, at least, has been made that self-awareness appears when a > mental model of the world, and behavior consequent to that model, > becomes complex enough that it must take itself into account. > Then it's an inevitable consequence of agency + increasing brainpower. > > But maybe some of you are thinking "that's not what I mean by > consciousness / sapience / sentience." > > On 2021-9-26 16:37, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > I'll bet neurologists could tell us several places in the brain > > which, if deadened, would lead to loss of consciousness. > > You appear to have switched from one definition of 'consciousness' > (associated with self-awareness; what a philosophical zombie lacks) to > another (responsiveness to stimuli). What you are describing is sometimes called the distinction between access consciousness (responsiveness to stimuli) and phenomenal consciousness (what a philosophical zombie lacks). There is an argument that they are the same thing, and philosophical zombies are impossible: https://philarchive.org/archive/MCDTOA https://ase.tufts.edu/cogstud/dennett/papers/unzombie.htm -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Mon Sep 27 14:56:19 2021 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 08:56:19 -0600 Subject: [ExI] wicked In-Reply-To: References: <0a2f33ca-3813-c815-dd5e-860868fcb1cb@zaiboc.net> <9053c086-7e9a-af83-c3e7-edc27eb69a0b@pobox.com> Message-ID: Obligatory p-Zombie humor: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/fsDz6HieZJBu54Yes/zombies-the-movie On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 1:26 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Mon, 27 Sep 2021 at 16:16, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> A suggestion, at least, has been made that self-awareness appears when a >> mental model of the world, and behavior consequent to that model, >> becomes complex enough that it must take itself into account. >> Then it's an inevitable consequence of agency + increasing brainpower. >> >> But maybe some of you are thinking "that's not what I mean by >> consciousness / sapience / sentience." >> >> On 2021-9-26 16:37, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >> > I'll bet neurologists could tell us several places in the brain >> > which, if deadened, would lead to loss of consciousness. >> >> You appear to have switched from one definition of 'consciousness' >> (associated with self-awareness; what a philosophical zombie lacks) to >> another (responsiveness to stimuli). > > > What you are describing is sometimes called the distinction between access > consciousness (responsiveness to stimuli) and phenomenal consciousness > (what a philosophical zombie lacks). There is an argument that they are the > same thing, and philosophical zombies are impossible: > > https://philarchive.org/archive/MCDTOA > > https://ase.tufts.edu/cogstud/dennett/papers/unzombie.htm > > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Sep 28 00:07:45 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 17:07:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] covid safety underwear Message-ID: <003001d7b3fc$dd9f15c0$98dd4140$@rainier66.com> My invention didn?t sell, which was quite the disappointment. It was such a good idea: underwear for the elderly without incontinence, scented to smell like urine. The proles get a whiff, oy vey, Jeez, they move away, resulting in lowered risk of covid. I tried to market the notion, no sale. They stole my idea, then saved money by just using their own urine. So I am not rich, but I am comforted knowing my stolen idea of safety underwear has saved lives of continent elderly. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Tue Sep 28 02:30:10 2021 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 20:30:10 -0600 Subject: [ExI] New Computational Binding Chapter just went live. Message-ID: Computational Binding -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Sep 28 04:40:19 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 21:40:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] covid safety underwear In-Reply-To: <003001d7b3fc$dd9f15c0$98dd4140$@rainier66.com> References: <003001d7b3fc$dd9f15c0$98dd4140$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001001d7b422$f1597b20$d40c7160$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Subject: covid safety underwear >? underwear for the elderly without incontinence, scented to smell like urine. The proles get a whiff, oy vey, Jeez, they move away, resulting in lowered risk of covid. ? spike They wouldn?t buy my toothpaste idea either. I told them it contains a breath defresher, it has sex repel. Think of the savings on birth control devices alone, never mind other associated costs. Covid safety, money savings, such a deal! spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Sep 28 04:51:14 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (stathisp) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 14:51:14 +1000 Subject: [ExI] covid safety underwear In-Reply-To: <003001d7b3fc$dd9f15c0$98dd4140$@rainier66.com> References: <003001d7b3fc$dd9f15c0$98dd4140$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Sep 2021 at 10:09, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > My invention didn?t sell, which was quite the disappointment. It was such > a good idea: underwear for the elderly without incontinence, scented to > smell like urine. The proles get a whiff, oy vey, Jeez, they move away, > resulting in lowered risk of covid. I tried to market the notion, no > sale. They stole my idea, then saved money by just using their own urine. > > > > So I am not rich, but I am comforted knowing my stolen idea of safety > underwear has saved lives of continent elderly. > In India there were stories of people covering themselves with cow dung for its anti-viral properties, and that probably would work quite well also. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Sep 28 13:49:21 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 08:49:21 -0500 Subject: [ExI] covid lies Message-ID: A lie can travel halfway around the world before the truth can get its boots on There is yet another medical research study showing eating saturated fats doesn't raise cholesterol (see People's Pharmacy for details). It was a very long time ago when the corrupted Harvard doctors published a study (paid for by the sugar industry) showing that saturated fats cause heart attacks because of artery buildup (since refuted many times). And so people drink a lot of skimmed milk (please note that 'skim' is a verb) and so on. You tell yourself that it will be good for you, etc. and still you continue as you always have been, regardless of facts. So it's not all superstition, low intelligence, misunderstanding of probabilities and so on. It's what gets in there first. First impressions of a new person tend to be very lasting and hard to change. We have known this for a long time. Want to make a habit nearly impossible to break? Make it based on fear, our strongest emotion. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Sep 28 16:32:42 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 17:32:42 +0100 Subject: [ExI] covid lies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Sept 2021 at 14:55, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > A lie can travel halfway around the world before the truth can get its boots on > > There is yet another medical research study showing eating saturated fats doesn't raise cholesterol (see People's Pharmacy for details). > > It was a very long time ago when the corrupted Harvard doctors published a study (paid for by the sugar industry) showing that saturated fats cause heart attacks because of artery buildup (since refuted many times). And so people drink a lot of skimmed milk (please note that 'skim' is a verb) and so on. You tell yourself that it will be good for you, etc. and still you continue as you always have been, regardless of facts. > > So it's not all superstition, low intelligence, misunderstanding of probabilities and so on. It's what gets in there first. First impressions of a new person tend to be very lasting and hard to change. We have known this for a long time. > > Want to make a habit nearly impossible to break? Make it based on fear, our strongest emotion. bill w > > _______________________________________________ I thought people drink skimmed milk because it has less than half the calories of full fat milk, so skimmed milk can help a weight loss diet. Some reports have claimed that skimmed milk feels less filling so encourages people to eat more and thus not lose any weight. To me, this ignores the very human reaction of 'fewer calories means I can reward myself and have a cake and chocolate biscuits'. There is always someone in the office ordering lunch of a Whopper burger and a Diet Coke. :) BillK From bronto at pobox.com Tue Sep 28 17:17:51 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 10:17:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] covid lies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1960cf90-25d8-604f-b4e1-fba663f6ad1e@pobox.com> On 2021-9-28 09:32, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > I thought people drink skimmed milk because it has less than half the > calories of full fat milk, so skimmed milk can help a weight loss > diet. When I was a kid we bought powdered milk and reconstituted it with tapwater. Fat-free, I assume because fat would have spoiled. My sister continued to prefer nonfat milk because she's accustomed to it; likewise margarine over butter. I don't know if that's still true. > Some reports have claimed that skimmed milk feels less filling so > encourages people to eat more and thus not lose any weight. To me, > this ignores the very human reaction of 'fewer calories means I can > reward myself and have a cake and chocolate biscuits'. There is always > someone in the office ordering lunch of a Whopper burger and a Diet > Coke. :) I assume there's not much *simple* sugar in a Whopper. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Tue Sep 28 21:32:41 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 14:32:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] covid lies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003c01d7b4b0$5e9d4d50$1bd7e7f0$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] covid lies On Tue, 28 Sept 2021 at 14:55, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > ... There is always someone in the office ordering lunch of a Whopper burger and a Diet Coke. :) BillK _______________________________________________ Hi BillK, I am that guy, but I wish to point out that it make perfect sense for at least some people. This took me so long to figure out for everyone's digestive system is different. Well... mine isn't. Mine's the same. But everyone else's is different. I have never tried to lose weight but work to maintain (otherwise it goes down.) I cannot tell the difference in taste between sugar cola and diet. But I discovered that sugar coke is an appetite-killer for me. Diet coke is an appetite stimulant. So... go with the whopper and super-size fries, and a super-size diet coke. The way I discovered the appetite-killing properties of sugar coke: I had always guzzled the stuff with my burgers. But one day I accidentally was given the other, and I couldn't tell the difference at all in taste. Well... sugar coke has health costs: it promotes tooth decay. So, I bought a sixer of the diet, verified I could not tell the difference in taste at all, decided hell with it, I will stay with diet cola. That has its social costs: I am the weird office guy who orders the whopper with diet coke, but there are health benefits to being the weird office guy as well: people stay farther away, which reduces the risk of catching disease. Besides that: I worked in a weird office. So consider a normal person in a weird office: from their weird point of view, I am the weird office-guy and from my point of view I am the weird-office guy. The hyphen is in different places. I do like my gut-bomb burgers. I still drink diet soda to gain weight. Come to think of it, perhaps I am the weird-office weird-guy. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Sep 28 23:15:33 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 18:15:33 -0500 Subject: [ExI] covid lies In-Reply-To: <003c01d7b4b0$5e9d4d50$1bd7e7f0$@rainier66.com> References: <003c01d7b4b0$5e9d4d50$1bd7e7f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Edwards' lemon pie, available at Walmart. I had to quit buying them. Puts on weight fast. bill w On Tue, Sep 28, 2021 at 4:36 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] covid lies > > On Tue, 28 Sept 2021 at 14:55, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > ... There is always someone in the office ordering lunch of a Whopper > burger and a Diet Coke. :) > > > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > > > Hi BillK, I am that guy, but I wish to point out that it make perfect sense > for at least some people. This took me so long to figure out for > everyone's > digestive system is different. Well... mine isn't. Mine's the same. But > everyone else's is different. > > I have never tried to lose weight but work to maintain (otherwise it goes > down.) I cannot tell the difference in taste between sugar cola and diet. > But I discovered that sugar coke is an appetite-killer for me. Diet coke > is > an appetite stimulant. So... go with the whopper and super-size fries, and > a super-size diet coke. > > The way I discovered the appetite-killing properties of sugar coke: I had > always guzzled the stuff with my burgers. But one day I accidentally was > given the other, and I couldn't tell the difference at all in taste. > Well... sugar coke has health costs: it promotes tooth decay. So, I bought > a sixer of the diet, verified I could not tell the difference in taste at > all, decided hell with it, I will stay with diet cola. > > That has its social costs: I am the weird office guy who orders the whopper > with diet coke, but there are health benefits to being the weird office guy > as well: people stay farther away, which reduces the risk of catching > disease. > > Besides that: I worked in a weird office. So consider a normal person in a > weird office: from their weird point of view, I am the weird office-guy and > from my point of view I am the weird-office guy. The hyphen is in > different > places. > > I do like my gut-bomb burgers. I still drink diet soda to gain weight. > Come to think of it, perhaps I am the weird-office weird-guy. > > spike > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Wed Sep 29 00:37:47 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 17:37:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] covid lies In-Reply-To: <003c01d7b4b0$5e9d4d50$1bd7e7f0$@rainier66.com> References: <003c01d7b4b0$5e9d4d50$1bd7e7f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <49bf12b4-20e2-6fdf-3e4a-49fec574ef14@pobox.com> On 2021-9-28 14:32, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > So, I bought > a sixer of the diet, verified I could not tell the difference in taste at > all, decided hell with it, I will stay with diet cola. I gave up sweet drinks (other than chocolate milk) circa 1983, but for a time in 199x I drank a nontrivial amount of Diet Coke; and found that about two cans' worth of aspartame give me a queasy feeling that I cannot describe. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From avant at sollegro.com Wed Sep 29 12:26:43 2021 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 05:26:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Nothing to see here Message-ID: <20210929052643.Horde.0Jc-XgnyW5hhzdvASO_khdc@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/pxg6t1/the_philippine_sea_right_now/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 Hmm. The international confluence of warships that is happening in the South China Sea right now is apparently not newsworthy. I can find nothing about this on mainstream media. John Grigg, care to comment? Stuart LaForge From spike at rainier66.com Wed Sep 29 12:55:21 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 05:55:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Nothing to see here In-Reply-To: <20210929052643.Horde.0Jc-XgnyW5hhzdvASO_khdc@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20210929052643.Horde.0Jc-XgnyW5hhzdvASO_khdc@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <002801d7b531$438825e0$ca9871a0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Nothing to see here https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/pxg6t1/the_philippine_sea_right_no w/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 >...Hmm. The international confluence of warships that is happening in the South China Sea right now is apparently not newsworthy. I can find nothing about this on mainstream media. John Grigg, care to comment? >...Stuart LaForge _______________________________________________ Perhaps the USA is planning a garage sale on military equipment. China, Australia and Britain are potential customers? Those two carriers and the aircraft aboard them might pay a year's interest on the money the US congress is trying to borrow. spike From spike at rainier66.com Wed Sep 29 13:19:57 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 06:19:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] evolutionary dieting, was: RE: covid lies Message-ID: <004101d7b534$b36e0de0$1a4a29a0$@rainier66.com> >>> ... There is always someone in the office ordering lunch of a Whopper burger and a Diet Coke. :) BillK _______________________________________________ >>?Hi BillK, I am that guy, but I wish to point out that it make perfect sense for at least some people. This took me so long to figure out for everyone's digestive system is different. Well... mine isn't. Mine's the same. But everyone else's is different?spike From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] covid lies >?Edwards' lemon pie, available at Walmart. I had to quit buying them. Puts on weight fast. bill w That this topic is so complicated and there is an entire industry devoted to it (diet and health) demonstrates that we are still missing some critical pieces of the puzzle. We know that dietary rules are not absolute, and we know that the principles often just fail for a lot of highly self-disciplined highly intelligent people. We all know such people, ja? Plenty of them. The rules are generalizations that work for most people most of the time, but have so many damn exasperating exceptions, harm is caused nearly as often as not. In Billw?s field we have come to understand the role of evolutionary psychology, so where is evolutionary diet and health theory? Where is evolutionary medicine in general? Have not people evolved skerjillions of generations under differing conditions and vastly differing diet? Do we expect the same diet rules that seem to work for people whose ancestors survived the frozen tundra of Siberia to work the same way for those whose ancestors survived on a scorched mesa in central Mexico? Do we expect the Atkins diet to work the same for Inuits as it does for Huichols? Why please? I can see a day coming soon where a dietician needs a DNA sample before she can even start helping a patient and even then it might still not be enough information. Dietary science is where biology was before evolution was proposed. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Wed Sep 29 13:34:47 2021 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 06:34:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Nothing to see here In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20210929063447.Horde.ouy0xSjMOjf-a-bn9eURH7a@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Spike: > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of > Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat > Subject: [ExI] Nothing to see here > https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/pxg6t1/the_philippine_sea_right_no > w/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 > >> ...Hmm. The international confluence of warships that is happening in the > South China Sea right now is apparently not newsworthy. I can find nothing > about this on mainstream media. John Grigg, care to comment? > >> ...Stuart LaForge > _______________________________________________ > > Perhaps the USA is planning a garage sale on military equipment. China, > Australia and Britain are potential customers? > > Those two carriers and the aircraft aboard them might pay a year's interest > on the money the US congress is trying to borrow. > > spike As long as inflation is higher than interest rates, borrowing is a sound strategy. Borrow a dollar that is worth a dollar now and pay it back later with a dollar worth 50 cents. Stuart LaForge From spike at rainier66.com Wed Sep 29 13:53:24 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 06:53:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Nothing to see here In-Reply-To: <20210929063447.Horde.ouy0xSjMOjf-a-bn9eURH7a@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20210929063447.Horde.ouy0xSjMOjf-a-bn9eURH7a@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <004f01d7b539$5fa01910$1ee04b30$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > > Perhaps the USA is planning a garage sale on military equipment. > China, Australia and Britain are potential customers? > >>... Those two carriers and the aircraft aboard them might pay a year's > interest on the money the US congress is trying to borrow. > > spike >...As long as inflation is higher than interest rates, borrowing is a sound strategy. Borrow a dollar that is worth a dollar now and pay it back later with a dollar worth 50 cents...Stuart LaForge _______________________________________________ Ja, and what happens to those who are dependent on pensions based on those dollars now worth half as much, supplied by the outfit which is borrowing and inflating the currency? Do they give them twice as many of the half-priced dollars? Where do those twice as many half priced dollars come from? Aircraft carrier sales? Who gets left holding the bag? Does not this start resembling a grand Ponzi scheme? spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 14:03:37 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:03:37 -0500 Subject: [ExI] diets Message-ID: Spike, there is current knowledge that fat people have different flora from average weight people, and yet they don't know what to do about - how to feed them differently. Male/female ditto. racial differences, national differences, and so on. There is plenty of evidence that personality differences make prescribing the same dose of a pill to everyone completely wrong. The medical profession is extremely conservative. Look at the history of their finally accepting that microbes are important. How many people died before they started washing their hands? Tests before treating a patient will include DNA, gut flora, personality and who knows what else? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 14:16:27 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 15:16:27 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Hazards near your home Message-ID: Need more to worry about? Are environmental hazards threatening your home? This website will show you. AreaHub quantifies all the risks near you, from nuclear reactors to fracking wells to Superfund sites to how many extreme weather events like hurricanes, severe floods, or tornadoes have occurred there in recent years. There is also a page on wildfires. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Wed Sep 29 15:06:42 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 08:06:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Hazards near your home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006001d7b543$9d31ec90$d795c5b0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2021 7:16 AM To: Extropy Chat Cc: BillK Subject: [ExI] Hazards near your home Need more to worry about? Are environmental hazards threatening your home? This website will show you. >...AreaHub quantifies all the risks near you, from nuclear reactors to fracking wells to Superfund sites to how many extreme weather events like hurricanes, severe floods, or tornadoes have occurred there in recent years. There is also a page on wildfires. https://www.fastcompany.com/90681175/are-there-environmental-hazards-threate ning-your-home-this-website-will-show-you BillK _______________________________________________ Hi BillK, The list of risks includes nuclear reactors. Currently about 9% of California's power is nuclear, but the Diablo Canyon reactor is approaching retirement, which will mean that 9% hasta come from somewhere, perhaps imported from coal powered plants. We have had rolling blackouts, which have a negative impact on air quality, as Diesel generators must be fired up and the natural gas peaker plants have their heyday. People will have electric power, regardless. I have a gasoline powered generator, which can carry the load for everything except HVAC. Nuke plants may be hazardous and create radioactive waste, but at least they are clean and safe for the environment. spike From pharos at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 16:13:41 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:13:41 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Hazards near your home In-Reply-To: <006001d7b543$9d31ec90$d795c5b0$@rainier66.com> References: <006001d7b543$9d31ec90$d795c5b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Sept 2021 at 16:11, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > Hi BillK, > > The list of risks includes nuclear reactors. Currently about 9% of > California's power is nuclear, but the Diablo Canyon reactor is approaching > retirement, which will mean that 9% hasta come from somewhere, perhaps > imported from coal powered plants. We have had rolling blackouts, which > have a negative impact on air quality, as Diesel generators must be fired up > and the natural gas peaker plants have their heyday. People will have > electric power, regardless. I have a gasoline powered generator, which can > carry the load for everything except HVAC. > > Nuke plants may be hazardous and create radioactive waste, but at least they > are clean and safe for the environment. > > spike > _______________________________________________ Nuclear plants seem to have become too expensive to build. The one the UK is trying to build is way over budget and time schedule. Home Battery Packs seem to be selling well these days. Often linked to solar panels for charging. Power cuts are one of the ways that the world is telling us that the old lifestyle can no longer be supported. Too many people now. We have to do things differently if we want to avoid much more unpleasantness. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Wed Sep 29 16:39:23 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:39:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Hazards near your home In-Reply-To: References: <006001d7b543$9d31ec90$d795c5b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007001d7b550$8fe61270$afb23750$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Hazards near your home On Wed, 29 Sept 2021 at 16:11, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > Hi BillK, > ... > >>... Nuke plants may be hazardous and create radioactive waste, but at > least they are clean and safe for the environment. > > spike > _______________________________________________ >...Nuclear plants seem to have become too expensive to build. The one the UK is trying to build is way over budget and time schedule... Ja, they are damn expensive to build, even more expensive to get them thru the environmental review. There have been no serious attempts to build new ones to replace the one in California which are nearing retirement. >...Home Battery Packs seem to be selling well these days. Often linked to solar panels for charging... Ja, and I very much encourage people to buy the hell outta those. My neighbor has two teslas and a powerwall plus the roof panels and inverters to run his house for a few days off of his cars. With those items he has over a quarter of a million bucks invested. Good for him. I have a gasoline-powered generator I use for charging my batteries while remote camping, investment less than 1k. My neighbor's investment in the power wall is not a power generator, but rather a storage device. The roof panels make some power, but not nearly enough to run the house. This is typical of Silicon Valley homes: you can run your lights and computers and electronics from solar panels but not your HVAC. The roof space is too small. >...Power cuts are one of the ways that the world is telling us that the old lifestyle can no longer be supported... Ja, but when we went thru those about 20 yrs ago, the power cuts told us to cut the bullshit and build a natural gas peaker plant, which they did. Turns out people got serious about LED lighting and adding insulation, so power demand started to reduce about that time. 2000 was the highest per capita power use ever for Silicon Valley, after which it trended downward, but now it is heading back up, as people are cranking up high-powered graphics/gaming computers to do bitcoin mining. >...Too many people now... Ja. Notice I mentioned per capita power use for the valley. That is down about 17% from the peak in y2k, but the number of capitas has gone up dramatically, which means we consume more power, even before we take into account the power hungry bitcoiner mines. >...We have to do things differently if we want to avoid much more unpleasantness....BillK _______________________________________________ OK how? I would suggest we start building nuke plants as fast as we can slam them into the ground. We start by transferring the cost of permits to build them from the investor to the agencies responsible for issuing the permits. spike From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 17:44:07 2021 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 13:44:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] diets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3B490C3B-E1C9-457A-AFCB-D8BD64CB8CDD@gmail.com> Well, fat people tend to eat different things in different amounts than healthy weight people, so is it surprising they?d have different gut biomes? SR Ballard > On Sep 29, 2021, at 10:07 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > Spike, there is current knowledge that fat people have different flora from average weight people, and yet they don't know what to do about - how to feed them differently. Male/female ditto. racial differences, national differences, and so on. > > There is plenty of evidence that personality differences make prescribing the same dose of a pill to everyone completely wrong. > > The medical profession is extremely conservative. Look at the history of their finally accepting that microbes are important. How many people died before they started washing their hands? > > Tests before treating a patient will include DNA, gut flora, personality and who knows what else? > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 19:51:33 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 14:51:33 -0500 Subject: [ExI] diets In-Reply-To: <3B490C3B-E1C9-457A-AFCB-D8BD64CB8CDD@gmail.com> References: <3B490C3B-E1C9-457A-AFCB-D8BD64CB8CDD@gmail.com> Message-ID: Fat mice: if you put some of their gut flora into a normal mouse, you get a mouse that gets fat. If you reverse that you get a fat mouse that loses weight. This has to come to people eventually and weight problems will be a thing of the past. bill w On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 12:47 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Well, fat people tend to eat different things in different amounts than > healthy weight people, so is it surprising they?d have different gut biomes? > > SR Ballard > > On Sep 29, 2021, at 10:07 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ? > Spike, there is current knowledge that fat people have different flora > from average weight people, and yet they don't know what to do about - how > to feed them differently. Male/female ditto. racial differences, > national differences, and so on. > > There is plenty of evidence that personality differences make prescribing > the same dose of a pill to everyone completely wrong. > > The medical profession is extremely conservative. Look at the history of > their finally accepting that microbes are important. How many people died > before they started washing their hands? > > Tests before treating a patient will include DNA, gut flora, personality > and who knows what else? > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 20:32:22 2021 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 16:32:22 -0400 Subject: [ExI] diets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5706B7DF-4141-4D56-821D-28F382E432A8@gmail.com> It?s already a clinical thing, at least in trails afaik. SR Ballard > On Sep 29, 2021, at 3:54 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > Fat mice: if you put some of their gut flora into a normal mouse, you get a mouse that gets fat. If you reverse that you get a fat mouse that loses weight. This has to come to people eventually and weight problems will be a thing of the past. bill w > >> On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 12:47 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >> Well, fat people tend to eat different things in different amounts than healthy weight people, so is it surprising they?d have different gut biomes? >> >> SR Ballard >> >>>> On Sep 29, 2021, at 10:07 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >>>> >>> ? >>> Spike, there is current knowledge that fat people have different flora from average weight people, and yet they don't know what to do about - how to feed them differently. Male/female ditto. racial differences, national differences, and so on. >>> >>> There is plenty of evidence that personality differences make prescribing the same dose of a pill to everyone completely wrong. >>> >>> The medical profession is extremely conservative. Look at the history of their finally accepting that microbes are important. How many people died before they started washing their hands? >>> >>> Tests before treating a patient will include DNA, gut flora, personality and who knows what else? >>> >>> bill w >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 20:59:07 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 15:59:07 -0500 Subject: [ExI] diets In-Reply-To: <5706B7DF-4141-4D56-821D-28F382E432A8@gmail.com> References: <5706B7DF-4141-4D56-821D-28F382E432A8@gmail.com> Message-ID: trails afaik. In what? oh, you mean trials - as far as i know - ok got it - not up on all the acronyms bill w On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 3:36 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > It?s already a clinical thing, at least in trails afaik. > > SR Ballard > > On Sep 29, 2021, at 3:54 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ? > Fat mice: if you put some of their gut flora into a normal mouse, you get > a mouse that gets fat. If you reverse that you get a fat mouse that loses > weight. This has to come to people eventually and weight problems will be > a thing of the past. bill w > > On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 12:47 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Well, fat people tend to eat different things in different amounts than >> healthy weight people, so is it surprising they?d have different gut biomes? >> >> SR Ballard >> >> On Sep 29, 2021, at 10:07 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> ? >> Spike, there is current knowledge that fat people have different flora >> from average weight people, and yet they don't know what to do about - how >> to feed them differently. Male/female ditto. racial differences, >> national differences, and so on. >> >> There is plenty of evidence that personality differences make prescribing >> the same dose of a pill to everyone completely wrong. >> >> The medical profession is extremely conservative. Look at the history of >> their finally accepting that microbes are important. How many people died >> before they started washing their hands? >> >> Tests before treating a patient will include DNA, gut flora, personality >> and who knows what else? >> >> bill w >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 21:32:41 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:32:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] diets In-Reply-To: References: <3B490C3B-E1C9-457A-AFCB-D8BD64CB8CDD@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 29, 2021, 3:55 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Fat mice: if you put some of their gut flora into a normal mouse, you get > a mouse that gets fat. If you reverse that you get a fat mouse that loses > weight. This has to come to people eventually and weight problems will be > a thing of the past. > Mouse studies are great, but people and mice are different in lots of ways. Fecal transplants are a thing, but they're not recognized/approved by the FDA, so they're hard to get in the U.S. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 23:28:38 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 18:28:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] diets In-Reply-To: References: <3B490C3B-E1C9-457A-AFCB-D8BD64CB8CDD@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yeah, and people and mice are also very close. I think they are the closest relatives we have besides the apes. The FDA should allow far more experimental uses of new drugs and procedures. Europe is far ahead of us there. There should be a black market for drugs available there and not here. I think you can get just about anything you want in Tijuana and Juarez. On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 4:37 PM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Sep 29, 2021, 3:55 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Fat mice: if you put some of their gut flora into a normal mouse, you >> get a mouse that gets fat. If you reverse that you get a fat mouse that >> loses weight. This has to come to people eventually and weight problems >> will be a thing of the past. >> > > Mouse studies are great, but people and mice are different in lots of > ways. > > Fecal transplants are a thing, but they're not recognized/approved by the > FDA, so they're hard to get in the U.S. > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Thu Sep 30 02:16:19 2021 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 19:16:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Hazards near your home In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20210929191619.Horde._RidaFU4FKeVTDrUmfVtymS@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org: -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of > BillK via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] Hazards near your home > > On Wed, 29 Sept 2021 at 16:11, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >> >> Hi BillK, >> > ... >> >>> ... Nuke plants may be hazardous and create radioactive waste, but at >> least they are clean and safe for the environment. >> >> spike >> _______________________________________________ > > >> ...Nuclear plants seem to have become too expensive to build. The one the > UK is trying to build is way over budget and time schedule... > > Ja, they are damn expensive to build, even more expensive to get them thru > the environmental review. There have been no serious attempts to build new > ones to replace the one in California which are nearing retirement. > >> ...Home Battery Packs seem to be selling well these days. Often linked to > solar panels for charging... > > Ja, and I very much encourage people to buy the hell outta those. My > neighbor has two teslas and a powerwall plus the roof panels and inverters > to run his house for a few days off of his cars. With those items he has > over a quarter of a million bucks invested. Good for him. > > I have a gasoline-powered generator I use for charging my batteries while > remote camping, investment less than 1k. > > My neighbor's investment in the power wall is not a power generator, but > rather a storage device. The roof panels make some power, but not nearly > enough to run the house. This is typical of Silicon Valley homes: you can > run your lights and computers and electronics from solar panels but not your > HVAC. The roof space is too small. > >> ...Power cuts are one of the ways that the world is telling us that the old > lifestyle can no longer be supported... > > Ja, but when we went thru those about 20 yrs ago, the power cuts told us to > cut the bullshit and build a natural gas peaker plant, which they did. > Turns out people got serious about LED lighting and adding insulation, so > power demand started to reduce about that time. 2000 was the highest per > capita power use ever for Silicon Valley, after which it trended downward, > but now it is heading back up, as people are cranking up high-powered > graphics/gaming computers to do bitcoin mining. > >> ...Too many people now... > > Ja. Notice I mentioned per capita power use for the valley. That is down > about 17% from the peak in y2k, but the number of capitas has gone up > dramatically, which means we consume more power, even before we take into > account the power hungry bitcoiner mines. > >> ...We have to do things differently if we want to avoid much more > unpleasantness....BillK > _______________________________________________ > > OK how? > > I would suggest we start building nuke plants as fast as we can slam them > into the ground. We start by transferring the cost of permits to build them > from the investor to the agencies responsible for issuing the permits. > > spike I don't necessarily think nuclear reactors should be privately owned. Terrorism, and other risks suggest that nuclear power-plants should be built and run and by the DoD and DoE. Say it is for national security (it is),screw the permits, and build them on military bases. Clear out some of that tinder on Federal land in California that catches fire every year, and use the land to build military forts with nuclear power-plants in them. Use them to power surrounding cities, and maybe sell power cheap to the power companies almost like the Fed does money to banks. Stuart LaForge From bronto at pobox.com Thu Sep 30 03:44:05 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 20:44:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] diets In-Reply-To: References: <3B490C3B-E1C9-457A-AFCB-D8BD64CB8CDD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <191d04f4-373b-178a-bbee-01099157e958@pobox.com> On 2021-9-29 16:28, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > Yeah, and people and mice are also very close.? I think they are the > closest relatives we have besides the apes. Primates' nearest kin appear to be the colugos ("flying lemurs") of SE Asia; then tree shrews; then rodents/bunnies. (from a quick look at Wikipedia) -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Thu Sep 30 04:08:42 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 21:08:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Hazards near your home In-Reply-To: <20210929191619.Horde._RidaFU4FKeVTDrUmfVtymS@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20210929191619.Horde._RidaFU4FKeVTDrUmfVtymS@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <001801d7b5b0$dbb59120$9320b360$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat ... > >>... I would suggest we start building nuke plants as fast as we can slam > them into the ground. We start by transferring the cost of permits to > build them from the investor to the agencies responsible for issuing the permits. > > spike >...I don't necessarily think nuclear reactors should be privately owned. Terrorism, and other risks suggest that nuclear power-plants should be built and run and by the DoD and DoE. Say it is for national security (it is),screw the permits, and build them on military bases. Clear out some of that tinder on Federal land in California that catches fire every year, and use the land to build military forts with nuclear power-plants in them. Use them to power surrounding cities, and maybe sell power cheap to the power companies almost like the Fed does money to banks. Stuart LaForge _______________________________________________ The Fed may not legally own a business. In the USA, all businesses are owned but not by the government. spike From pharos at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 10:06:26 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 11:06:26 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Crazy electric scooter racing Message-ID: Check out the absurdly fast 60 MPH standing electric scooters built for the eSC racing league by Micah Toll Sep. 29th 2021 Quote: The eSC is the first and only high-speed standing electric scooter racing league, and it?s as bonkers as it sounds. We first covered the league over a year ago when it announced its intentions and began looking for teams. Fortunately for everyone who has ever wanted to see dudes on small-wheeled scooters take turns at highway speeds, enough teams signed up that the league was able to get off the ground and rolling. People are always going to ride fast, powerful, and sometimes crazy-looking contraptions as long as they exist. At least this way it can be done in a somewhat regulated, presumably supervised fashion and with paramedics standing by. And at least we can all watch. -------------------------------- BillK From pharos at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 10:39:11 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 11:39:11 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Facebook 2018 changes made users more divisive and angry Message-ID: 2018 change saw Facebook rewarding outrage; Zuckerberg resisted fixes ? With insights from The Wall Street Journal 16th September 2021 by Jarryd Neves Quote: A change Facebook made to its social media platform intended to strengthen the bonds between users and ?improve their well-being,? However, some members of staff at the California-based company warned against this. They warned that the changes to the popular social media platform were, in fact, producing the opposite of the intended result. ?Company researchers discovered that publishers and political parties were reorienting their posts toward outrage and sensationalism. That tactic produced high levels of comments and reactions that translated into success on Facebook.? They concluded that the new algorithm?s heavy weighting of reshared material in its News Feed made the angry voices louder. ?Misinformation, toxicity, and violent content are inordinately prevalent among reshares,? researchers noted in internal memos. ------------- BillK From spike at rainier66.com Thu Sep 30 12:38:27 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 05:38:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Crazy electric scooter racing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005401d7b5f8$116ecd30$344c6790$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Crazy electric scooter racing >...Check out the absurdly fast 60 MPH standing electric scooters built for the eSC racing league by Micah Toll Sep. 29th 2021 https://electrek.co/2021/09/29/check-out-the-absurdly-fast-60-mph-standing-electric-scooters-built-for-the-esc-racing-league/ ... And at least we can all watch. -------------------------------- BillK _______________________________________________ BillK, there are pleeeenty of us who would ride one of those babies. I wouldn't race one, but if I had a chance to get out there on a track by myself I damn sure would jump at that opportunity. When I was 40 years younger I might even race on one of em. Looks like a hell of a lotta fun to me. This brings up a whole new and interesting engineering problem. Assume guys racing eSkootrs at freeway speeds and obviously the risk of a crash is high. How do you build some kind of protective clothing that is a step up from the Kevlar suits the bike racers wear? Those are damn good: we regularly see the bikers crash at 150 mph and walk away. The bikes don't, but the riders usually do. So it might be the Kevlar suits are good enough for this application, but what if... old guys like me want to go fast on an eSkootr? Could we make a racing suit with inflatable bladders to pad my aged but still eager hips and elbows? How about if we race on a flat track with plenty of run-out area on the periphery so if we fall off we don't hit a damn wall. Or what if we race them on ice or something? spike From spike at rainier66.com Thu Sep 30 12:52:08 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 05:52:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Facebook 2018 changes made users more divisive and angry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005701d7b5f9$faf89c00$f0e9d400$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat ... >...A change Facebook made to its social media platform intended to strengthen the bonds between users and ?improve their well-being,? >...They concluded that the new algorithm?s heavy weighting of reshared material in its News Feed made the angry voices louder. ?Misinformation, toxicity, and violent content are inordinately prevalent among reshares,? researchers noted in internal memos. ------------- BillK _______________________________________________ BillK, Zuckerberg knows exactly what he is doing, and it makes perfect sense. The quoted sentence is misunderstood because of its slightly ambiguous wording. FaceBook intended to strengthen the bonds between users and improve their [FaceBook's] well-being. It worked. FaceBook doesn't exist to create well-being. FaceBook exists to create wealth. It rewards outrage because outrage sells. Note that in the USA, the mainstream cable news source which is filled with outrage (mostly political (crime stories big sellers too)) now has more viewers than its two major competitors combined, and is still growing, at their competitor's expense. FaceBook and Twitter can see what is happening and they want their piece of that pie. What I am finding even more interesting is that even with his trillions (British trillions (or is it million and billion the British lads switch?)) Zuck's neighbors in Palo Alto won't let him buy all the houses on the street and build a compound. That really surprised me, but they have managed to somehow stop a particular rich guy from buying his own neighbor's homes. spike From sparge at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 12:55:26 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 08:55:26 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Hazards near your home In-Reply-To: <001801d7b5b0$dbb59120$9320b360$@rainier66.com> References: <20210929191619.Horde._RidaFU4FKeVTDrUmfVtymS@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <001801d7b5b0$dbb59120$9320b360$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 12:12 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > The Fed may not legally own a business. In the USA, all businesses are > owned but not by the government. > I guess Amtrak, TVA, and the USPS aren't businesses but the distinction is pretty fine. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 13:02:35 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 14:02:35 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Crazy electric scooter racing In-Reply-To: <005401d7b5f8$116ecd30$344c6790$@rainier66.com> References: <005401d7b5f8$116ecd30$344c6790$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Sept 2021 at 13:43, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > BillK, there are pleeeenty of us who would ride one of those babies. I wouldn't race one, but if I had a chance to get out there on a track by myself I damn sure would jump at that opportunity. When I was 40 years younger I might even race on one of em. Looks like a hell of a lotta fun to me. > > This brings up a whole new and interesting engineering problem. Assume guys racing eSkootrs at freeway speeds and obviously the risk of a crash is high. How do you build some kind of protective clothing that is a step up from the Kevlar suits the bike racers wear? Those are damn good: we regularly see the bikers crash at 150 mph and walk away. The bikes don't, but the riders usually do. So it might be the Kevlar suits are good enough for this application, but what if... old guys like me want to go fast on an eSkootr? Could we make a racing suit with inflatable bladders to pad my aged but still eager hips and elbows? How about if we race on a flat track with plenty of run-out area on the periphery so if we fall off we don't hit a damn wall. Or what if we race them on ice or something? > > spike > _______________________________________________ I think I'll just watch! :) Falling off at 60 mph doesn't sound like a good idea. I remembered reading that motorcycle airbags are already available. Quote: Airbag jackets and vests for motorcycles appeared quite a while ago. The first motorcycle airbag jacket was invented in Hungary in 1976, while the first inflating airbag was developed in Japan in 1996 and launched in 1998. Since that time, this protective garment has become more advanced in terms of technology. Today, you can find airbag vests and jackets that can function completely independently, so you will neither need to link the airbag cushion system to your bike nor install additional sensors on it. Self-contained vests and jackets give you the freedom to ride on any motorcycle at any time you want, while still offering maximum safety and reliability. ----------------- BillK From sparge at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 13:11:56 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 09:11:56 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Hazards near your home In-Reply-To: <20210929191619.Horde._RidaFU4FKeVTDrUmfVtymS@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20210929191619.Horde._RidaFU4FKeVTDrUmfVtymS@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 10:19 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > I don't necessarily think nuclear reactors should be privately owned. > Terrorism, and other risks suggest that nuclear power-plants should be > built and run and by the DoD and DoE. DoD and DoE? Joint ownership? DoE already oversees reactors. The government could do a lot to promote new reactors along the lines of greasing the regulatory skids, but there's a lot of irrational fear associated with nuclear power and nobody in DC has the balls to try to change that. I think DoE screwed up when they stopped researching thorium-based reactors. Given the widespread failures of our government, I'm not at all comfortable with the idea of them militarizing nuclear power production. Say it is for national security > (it is),screw the permits, and build them on military bases. Clear out > some of that tinder on Federal land in California that catches fire > every year, and use the land to build military forts with nuclear > power-plants in them. Use them to power surrounding cities, and maybe > sell power cheap to the power companies almost like the Fed does money > to banks. > Cooling water might be scarce in most of those areas. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Sep 30 13:18:04 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 06:18:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Hazards near your home In-Reply-To: References: <20210929191619.Horde._RidaFU4FKeVTDrUmfVtymS@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <001801d7b5b0$dbb59120$9320b360$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007e01d7b5fd$9a6e4430$cf4acc90$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Dave Sill via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Hazards near your home On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 12:12 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: The Fed may not legally own a business. In the USA, all businesses are owned but not by the government. >?I guess Amtrak, TVA, and the USPS aren't businesses but the distinction is pretty fine. -Dave Ja those are special cases, and all three should be a good demonstration of why the government should not be in the business of business. Let business take care of business and government take care of government. Even better example: NASA vs SpaceX. Now we have top US government people claiming that 3.5 trillion in new government spending will cost nothing and add nothing to the national debt, as they ask for an increase in the borrowing limit. Is that not self-contradictory? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Sep 30 13:33:42 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 06:33:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Hazards near your home In-Reply-To: References: <20210929191619.Horde._RidaFU4FKeVTDrUmfVtymS@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <009701d7b5ff$c94d6720$5be83560$@rainier66.com> ?.> On Behalf Of Dave Sill via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Hazards near your home On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 10:19 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat > wrote: I don't necessarily think nuclear reactors should be privately owned. Terrorism, and other risks suggest that nuclear power-plants should be built and run and by the DoD and DoE. >?DoD and DoE? Joint ownership? DoE already oversees reactors? Ja, their reactors are for producing plutonium for nuclear bombs. The energy they produce is a side product, which they do sell and it does compete with legitimate power-generation. So that one is a special case. It was originally set up to make weapons. That is an idea: run breeder reactors only and sell the plutonium to whoever you hope doesn?t use it on you. Japan is going bigtime on thorium reactors I hear. If they can get them to work, we can buy theirs. If we can afford them. >?Cooling water might be scarce in most of those areas. -Dave One can envision nuclear reactors along the coasts, with sea water used for cooling and some fresh water recovery from the vaporized cooling water. Currently that method isn?t economical, because sea water, especially hot concentrated sea water, is very corrosive. But it can be done. A nuclear plant is the materials scientist?s playground. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 13:46:23 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 14:46:23 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Hazards near your home In-Reply-To: References: <20210929191619.Horde._RidaFU4FKeVTDrUmfVtymS@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Sept 2021 at 14:21, Dave Sill via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 10:19 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> >> I don't necessarily think nuclear reactors should be privately owned. >> Terrorism, and other risks suggest that nuclear power-plants should be >> built and run and by the DoD and DoE. > > > DoD and DoE? Joint ownership? DoE already oversees reactors. > > The government could do a lot to promote new reactors along the lines of greasing the regulatory skids, but there's a lot of irrational fear associated with nuclear power and nobody in DC has the balls to try to change that. > > I think DoE screwed up when they stopped researching thorium-based reactors. > > Given the widespread failures of our government, I'm not at all comfortable with the idea of them militarizing nuclear power production. > >> Say it is for national security >> (it is),screw the permits, and build them on military bases. Clear out >> some of that tinder on Federal land in California that catches fire >> every year, and use the land to build military forts with nuclear >> power-plants in them. Use them to power surrounding cities, and maybe >> sell power cheap to the power companies almost like the Fed does money >> to banks. > > > Cooling water might be scarce in most of those areas. > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ Lots of small nuclear reactors might be a possible solution. They are cheaper to construct as it is essentially a factory production line. And much quicker to build as well. Quote: (Updated September 2021) There is strong interest in small and simpler units for generating electricity from nuclear power, and for process heat. This interest in small and medium nuclear power reactors is driven both by a desire to reduce the impact of capital costs and to provide power away from large grid systems. The technologies involved are numerous and very diverse. ------------------------------- I'm not sure about having thousands of SNRs scattered around though. There are probably many people that would like to try and make one explode. BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 13:56:23 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 08:56:23 -0500 Subject: [ExI] diets In-Reply-To: <191d04f4-373b-178a-bbee-01099157e958@pobox.com> References: <3B490C3B-E1C9-457A-AFCB-D8BD64CB8CDD@gmail.com> <191d04f4-373b-178a-bbee-01099157e958@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 10:47 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2021-9-29 16:28, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Yeah, and people and mice are also very close. I think they are the > > closest relatives we have besides the apes. > > Primates' nearest kin appear to be the colugos ("flying lemurs") > of SE Asia; then tree shrews; then rodents/bunnies. > (from a quick look at Wikipedia) > This is overkill. One trouble with the web is that we can get more information than we know what to do with. I am a very curious person (pun intended) but at some point, what am I going to do with more information? And this is a problem with highly educated, highly intelligent people, like we are, right? Nobody can say anything without some of us adding to it, arguing with some of it, and so on. (sure to get some added here). Sure, I can get out of these posts when they become overkill, and I am doing so. bill w > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 14:07:40 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 09:07:40 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Crazy electric scooter racing In-Reply-To: <005401d7b5f8$116ecd30$344c6790$@rainier66.com> References: <005401d7b5f8$116ecd30$344c6790$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: there are pleeeenty of us who would ride one of those babies. I wouldn't race one, but if I had a chance to get out there on a track by myself I damn sure would jump at that opportunity. When I was 40 years younger I might even race on one of em. Looks like a hell of a lotta fun to me. spike spike - are you sure you're an introvert? Maybe you had better retake those tests. bill w On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 7:41 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of > BillK via extropy-chat > > Subject: [ExI] Crazy electric scooter racing > > >...Check out the absurdly fast 60 MPH standing electric scooters built > for the eSC racing league > by Micah Toll Sep. 29th 2021 > > > > https://electrek.co/2021/09/29/check-out-the-absurdly-fast-60-mph-standing-electric-scooters-built-for-the-esc-racing-league/ > > ... > > And at least we can all watch. > -------------------------------- > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > > > > BillK, there are pleeeenty of us who would ride one of those babies. I > wouldn't race one, but if I had a chance to get out there on a track by > myself I damn sure would jump at that opportunity. When I was 40 years > younger I might even race on one of em. Looks like a hell of a lotta fun > to me. > > This brings up a whole new and interesting engineering problem. Assume > guys racing eSkootrs at freeway speeds and obviously the risk of a crash is > high. How do you build some kind of protective clothing that is a step up > from the Kevlar suits the bike racers wear? Those are damn good: we > regularly see the bikers crash at 150 mph and walk away. The bikes don't, > but the riders usually do. So it might be the Kevlar suits are good enough > for this application, but what if... old guys like me want to go fast on an > eSkootr? Could we make a racing suit with inflatable bladders to pad my > aged but still eager hips and elbows? How about if we race on a flat track > with plenty of run-out area on the periphery so if we fall off we don't hit > a damn wall. Or what if we race them on ice or something? > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Sep 30 14:49:36 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 07:49:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] diets In-Reply-To: References: <3B490C3B-E1C9-457A-AFCB-D8BD64CB8CDD@gmail.com> <191d04f4-373b-178a-bbee-01099157e958@pobox.com> Message-ID: <003901d7b60a$63d460f0$2b7d22d0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat ? >?And this is a problem with highly educated? Problem? This is a solution. >?highly intelligent people, like we are, right? HAH! The professor challenges me to an ego contest. Bring it on buddy! >?Nobody can say anything without some of us adding to it, arguing with some of it and so on. (sure to get some added here). ? No way Jose! Oh wait, retract. >?Sure, I can get out of these posts when they become overkill, and I am doing so. bill w Billw, ya ain?t leaving us, me lad! You have brought in a lotta new insights. Don?t go. Cool thing about the internet: your stuff lives on. You can check out, but you cannot leave. Besides that: as addictions go, this one doesn?t cost much. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 15:03:32 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 11:03:32 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Hazards near your home In-Reply-To: References: <20210929191619.Horde._RidaFU4FKeVTDrUmfVtymS@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 9:50 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Lots of small nuclear reactors might be a possible solution. > They are cheaper to construct as it is essentially a factory production > line. > And much quicker to build as well. > > < > https://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/nuclear-fuel-cycle/nuclear-power-reactors/small-nuclear-power-reactors.aspx > > > > Quote: > (Updated September 2021) > There is strong interest in small and simpler units for generating > electricity from nuclear power, and for process heat. > This interest in small and medium nuclear power reactors is driven > both by a desire to reduce the impact of capital costs and to provide > power away from large grid systems. > The technologies involved are numerous and very diverse. > ------------------------------- > > I'm not sure about having thousands of SNRs scattered around though. > There are probably many people that would like to try and make one > explode. > Here's a project my employer is working on: https://tcr.ornl.gov/ TCR was originally (internally) trashcan reactor. The idea is a trashcan-sized 3D-printed reactor. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Sep 30 15:03:57 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 08:03:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Crazy electric scooter racing In-Reply-To: References: <005401d7b5f8$116ecd30$344c6790$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004c01d7b60c$65249cc0$2f6dd640$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Subject: Re: [ExI] Crazy electric scooter racing >>? there are pleeeenty of us who would ride one of those babies. I wouldn't race one, but if I had a chance to get out there on a track by myself I damn sure would jump at that opportunity. When I was 40 years younger I might even race on one of em. Looks like a hell of a lotta fun to me. spike >?spike - are you sure you're an introvert? Maybe you had better retake those tests. bill w Of course I?m an introvert Billw! That?s why I hang out on the internet! It?s a gift, the introvert?s playground. You can be as Aspergers as you want, for it doesn?t matter if you cannot read body language when there is no actual visual feedback to read. The internet is the great equalizer, or really the great? superiorizer in a sense. Bar fight breaks out, somebody hits the breaker switch, completely dark room, the blind guy whoops everybody?s ass and doesn?t even realize why it was suddenly so dang easy. Racing sports don?t require one to be extroverted. Win the race, bikini babe on the podium, I?m like: eeewww, hand over the trophy and get away from me, trollop! Temptress! Well OK, stay for the photos, then vamoose papoose! That sorta thing. Classic example, I saw this movie in a theatre. When Jack delivered these lines, the audience was laughing so hard you couldn?t hear the end of the sentence. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0g9_wfkYjfo I had to buy the DVD just to study Jack?s techniques. I do confess I had a blast at the ExtroCons, all of them, even though there was all that icky face to face. With that crowd it was crazy fun, but had it been with normal people, eeewwww, adios amigo. Racing is a solitary sport mostly. Great for introverts, unless they win and hafta get up in front of everybody on the podium. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Thu Sep 30 15:30:01 2021 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 08:30:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Facebook 2018 changes made users more divisive and angry In-Reply-To: <005701d7b5f9$faf89c00$f0e9d400$@rainier66.com> References: <005701d7b5f9$faf89c00$f0e9d400$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <8ec3576b-e829-8dbc-1fbf-ee8f7a6c91ce@pobox.com> On 2021-9-30 05:52, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > What I am finding even more interesting is that even with his > trillions (British trillions (or is it million and billion the > British lads switch?)) Zuck I believe the "long" usage is dead in Britain, but it may still be alive in France. 1e3 thousand thousand 1e6 million million 1e9 billion thousand million; milliard (rare) 1e12 trillion billion 1e15 quadrillion thousand billion 1e18 quintillion trillion I assume getting the difference so wrong in the wrong direction was meant as funny. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From dsunley at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 15:39:29 2021 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 09:39:29 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Facebook 2018 changes made users more divisive and angry In-Reply-To: <8ec3576b-e829-8dbc-1fbf-ee8f7a6c91ce@pobox.com> References: <005701d7b5f9$faf89c00$f0e9d400$@rainier66.com> <8ec3576b-e829-8dbc-1fbf-ee8f7a6c91ce@pobox.com> Message-ID: The problem isn't that people were implicitly encouraged to reshare content. The problem is that Republicans were implicitly encouraged to reshare content. That has come to be seen as having been an unforgivable mistake, and the knives are out for Zuckerberg. On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 9:33 AM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2021-9-30 05:52, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > What I am finding even more interesting is that even with his > > trillions (British trillions (or is it million and billion the > > British lads switch?)) Zuck > > I believe the "long" usage is dead in Britain, > but it may still be alive in France. > > 1e3 thousand thousand > 1e6 million million > 1e9 billion thousand million; milliard (rare) > 1e12 trillion billion > 1e15 quadrillion thousand billion > 1e18 quintillion trillion > > I assume getting the difference so wrong in the wrong direction was > meant as funny. > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Sep 30 16:31:59 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 09:31:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Facebook 2018 changes made users more divisive and angry In-Reply-To: <8ec3576b-e829-8dbc-1fbf-ee8f7a6c91ce@pobox.com> References: <005701d7b5f9$faf89c00$f0e9d400$@rainier66.com> <8ec3576b-e829-8dbc-1fbf-ee8f7a6c91ce@pobox.com> Message-ID: <001401d7b618$b155cea0$14016be0$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Facebook 2018 changes made users more divisive and angry On 2021-9-30 05:52, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >>... What I am finding even more interesting is that even with his > trillions (British trillions (or is it million and billion the British > lads switch?)) Zuck >...I believe the "long" usage is dead in Britain, but it may still be alive in France. 1e3 thousand thousand 1e6 million million 1e9 billion thousand million; milliard (rare) 1e12 trillion billion 1e15 quadrillion thousand billion 1e18 quintillion trillion >...I assume getting the difference so wrong in the wrong direction was meant as funny. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org _______________________________________________ Anton, it would be funny if we didn't have politicians conflating terms which differ by three orders of magnitude. Think about how this could have been done, had we realized the possible absurdity pointed out in the previous sentence. what it is (USA) what it shoulda been (everywhere) 1e3 thousand kilo 1e6 million million 1e9 billion giga 1e12 trillion billion 1e15 quadrillion peta 1e18 quintillion trillion 1e21 sextillion zetta 1e24 septillion quadrillion If you think it over, it really should have been the right side column. Then the term million is million^1, billion is a million^2, trillion is a million^3 and so on. Having those terms differ by a factor of a million would reduce the use of phrases such as "millionehs and billionehs" as well as this week's howler "trillionaires and billionaires." spike From spike at rainier66.com Thu Sep 30 16:41:21 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 09:41:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Facebook 2018 changes made users more divisive and angry In-Reply-To: References: <005701d7b5f9$faf89c00$f0e9d400$@rainier66.com> <8ec3576b-e829-8dbc-1fbf-ee8f7a6c91ce@pobox.com> Message-ID: <002001d7b61a$00af91b0$020eb510$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Darin Sunley via extropy-chat ? Subject: Re: [ExI] Facebook 2018 changes made users more divisive and angry >?The problem isn't that people were implicitly encouraged to reshare content. >?The problem is that Republicans were implicitly encouraged to reshare content. >?That has come to be seen as having been an unforgivable mistake, and the knives are out for Zuckerberg? Oh, I meant the knives were out for Zuckerberg because he tried to buy his entire street in Palo Alto and turn it into a private compound. That predated the current animosity centered on FaceBook. Not everyone on that street wanted to sell their Palo Alto property, even for thrice its fair market value, and they didn?t want to find themselves living in the middle of a secured private FaceBook compound. I didn?t understand that of course, for either of those two things would be just fine with me. I would go either route, cheerfully, eagerly. Mark Zuckerberg could buy every house on my street, or buy all of them around me and provide me free 24/7 security, sure, welcome to the neighborhood Mark. I have no heartburn at all being the poor neighbor they look down on and toss hundred dollar bills into my hat out of pity for my grinding poverty, sure. I don?t understand rich people. Do you? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 17:52:26 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 12:52:26 -0500 Subject: [ExI] diets In-Reply-To: <003901d7b60a$63d460f0$2b7d22d0$@rainier66.com> References: <3B490C3B-E1C9-457A-AFCB-D8BD64CB8CDD@gmail.com> <191d04f4-373b-178a-bbee-01099157e958@pobox.com> <003901d7b60a$63d460f0$2b7d22d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Nah, ain't leavin' - where else would I find a bunch of people like me who jump on everything I say, pound my head against the wall, pick nits and micronits (I claim invention of that word), and elevate my discourse? Well, pretty much anywhere, I suppose, but I'll stick with y'all. The known evil. I will add one thing here: none of y'all seem to be able to stick to a topic. We start out with a mouse and it devolves into lemurs and whatall. A tangential mob are ye. bill w On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 9:52 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *?* > > > > >?And this is a problem with highly educated? > > > > Problem? This is a solution. > > > > >?highly intelligent people, like we are, right? > > > > HAH! The professor challenges me to an ego contest. Bring it on buddy! > > > > >?Nobody can say anything without some of us adding to it, arguing with > some of it and so on. (sure to get some added here). ? > > > > No way Jose! > > > > Oh wait, retract. > > > > >?Sure, I can get out of these posts when they become overkill, and I am > doing so. bill w > > > > Billw, ya ain?t leaving us, me lad! You have brought in a lotta new > insights. Don?t go. > > > > Cool thing about the internet: your stuff lives on. You can check out, > but you cannot leave. Besides that: as addictions go, this one doesn?t > cost much. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 18:09:14 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 13:09:14 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Crazy electric scooter racing In-Reply-To: <004c01d7b60c$65249cc0$2f6dd640$@rainier66.com> References: <005401d7b5f8$116ecd30$344c6790$@rainier66.com> <004c01d7b60c$65249cc0$2f6dd640$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I seem not to be able to listen to the Youtube thing - cannot get the sound high enough. Have had this problem before. ???? I got a question on Quora - tell me what you think of it. I was asked if using the web was a sign of intellectual laziness. I answered his question with my question: what else would you do when you need to do research? He responded that he didn't know - go to a library he supposed. He obviously had no conception of what we have been through all our lives up until the appearance of the web. They don't know what they have - the greatest invention in the history of intellectual pursuit of knowledge. I wish I had had it all my life. I would have been a better teacher; would have benefited from research on what things to buy, and so on - I don't have to tell you. Your scheme for renaming billions etc. just makes it harder for the common person, who remembers square roots as something he had trouble with way back when. But hey! Who cares about them there plebeians? We patricians rule! bill w On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 10:15 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Crazy electric scooter racing > > > > >>? there are pleeeenty of us who would ride one of those babies. I > wouldn't race one, but if I had a chance to get out there on a track by > myself I damn sure would jump at that opportunity. When I was 40 years > younger I might even race on one of em. Looks like a hell of a lotta fun > to me. spike > > > > >?spike - are you sure you're an introvert? Maybe you had better retake > those tests. bill w > > > > Of course I?m an introvert Billw! That?s why I hang out on the internet! > It?s a gift, the introvert?s playground. You can be as Aspergers as you > want, for it doesn?t matter if you cannot read body language when there is > no actual visual feedback to read. The internet is the great equalizer, or > really the great? superiorizer in a sense. Bar fight breaks out, somebody > hits the breaker switch, completely dark room, the blind guy whoops > everybody?s ass and doesn?t even realize why it was suddenly so dang easy. > > > > Racing sports don?t require one to be extroverted. Win the race, bikini > babe on the podium, I?m like: eeewww, hand over the trophy and get away > from me, trollop! Temptress! Well OK, stay for the photos, then vamoose > papoose! That sorta thing. > > > > Classic example, I saw this movie in a theatre. When Jack delivered these > lines, the audience was laughing so hard you couldn?t hear the end of the > sentence. > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0g9_wfkYjfo > > > > I had to buy the DVD just to study Jack?s techniques. > > > > I do confess I had a blast at the ExtroCons, all of them, even though > there was all that icky face to face. With that crowd it was crazy fun, > but had it been with normal people, eeewwww, adios amigo. > > > > Racing is a solitary sport mostly. Great for introverts, unless they win > and hafta get up in front of everybody on the podium. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Sep 30 18:16:41 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 11:16:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] sticks and things: was: RE: diets Message-ID: <002801d7b627$5188f970$f49aec50$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] diets >? The known evil? What? Known evil? Compared to what? Or who? I will grant you the ?evil? part but there are widely varying degrees of ?known.? Who is better known? How known are they? Are we talking ?know? in the biblical sense? Hope not, I wouldn?t do that with an evil person, oy vey mercy. >? I will add one thing here: none of y'all seem to be able to stick to a topic? bill w Sure we can Billw! For instance this one, in the sentence above, starting with the key terms ?stick? and ?thing.? I had a car when I was younger than I am now, which had a stick thing. It was kind of a lousy car, but it would still cruise. But enough about cruises. Well almost enough: I went on a cruise once, to Hawaii. Spent most of the time looking out to sea for that big swirling island of plastic trash. Never did find that, but the dolphins were surfing the wake and having a great time, which reminded me of my own surfing when I was younger than I am now, which I was able to get to because of my lousy car with the stick thing. Billw, there ya go, thou unbeliever. Stayed right on topic. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 18:36:50 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 13:36:50 -0500 Subject: [ExI] sticks and things: was: RE: diets In-Reply-To: <002801d7b627$5188f970$f49aec50$@rainier66.com> References: <002801d7b627$5188f970$f49aec50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I think you must be in the middle of a James Joyce book and have been infected. I must have been too as I understand it! bill w On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 1:21 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] diets > > > > >? The known evil? > > > > What? Known evil? Compared to what? Or who? I will grant you the > ?evil? part but there are widely varying degrees of ?known.? Who is better > known? How known are they? Are we talking ?know? in the biblical sense? > Hope not, I wouldn?t do that with an evil person, oy vey mercy. > > > > > > >? I will add one thing here: none of y'all seem to be able to stick to > a topic? bill w > > > > > > Sure we can Billw! For instance this one, in the sentence above, starting > with the key terms ?stick? and ?thing.? I had a car when I was younger > than I am now, which had a stick thing. It was kind of a lousy car, but it > would still cruise. But enough about cruises. Well almost enough: I went > on a cruise once, to Hawaii. Spent most of the time looking out to sea for > that big swirling island of plastic trash. Never did find that, but the > dolphins were surfing the wake and having a great time, which reminded me > of my own surfing when I was younger than I am now, which I was able to get > to because of my lousy car with the stick thing. > > > > Billw, there ya go, thou unbeliever. Stayed right on topic. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Sep 30 18:47:05 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 11:47:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Crazy electric scooter racing In-Reply-To: References: <005401d7b5f8$116ecd30$344c6790$@rainier66.com> <004c01d7b60c$65249cc0$2f6dd640$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005901d7b62b$91386480$b3a92d80$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2021 11:09 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: Re: [ExI] Crazy electric scooter racing >? I was asked if using the web was a sign of intellectual laziness. I answered his question with my question: what else would you do when you need to do research? He responded that he didn't know - go to a library he supposed? People who think any serious research happens at the library have been asleep for the past 20 years. Nearly everything in the library, all the information is (in some degree) outdated by the time ink hits paper. But that in itself isn?t necessarily a problem because you can?t find that outdated information anyway. Paper books cannot be effectively word-searched. Our local library has evolved into a defacto homeless shelter. It was already going that route with the top floor of the parking structure, but when covid came along, they closed the library and the homeless took the whole structure. They can?t really move them out because there is nowhere to move them to. But that isn?t really a big problem either, because not many people go there in a car anymore, so the parking structure isn?t really needed. >.. - the greatest invention in the history of intellectual pursuit of knowledge? Oh understatement. It is great for intellectual pursuit of knowledge, but it is even better for pursuit of whatever else you want. Such a gift is the internet. >?Your scheme for renaming billions etc. just makes it harder for the common person? That?s why we hire smart people to do most of the thinking. >? We patricians rule! bill w I tried to become a patrician but my MCAT scores were too low. Woulda had to go train in Missouri, forget it. Couldn?t master the language fast enough. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 18:50:11 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 11:50:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Call for NFT makers Message-ID: I have recently been asked to commission some artists to create Non-Fungible Tokens for auction. I suspect there may be some members of this list who might be able to make these, and interested in making a bit of somewhat-quick cash. The requestor is Foundation For The Future, to auction at their gala on October 21: https://www.f4f.space/gala . The requested theme is near-Earth space industry: lunar mining, space-based solar power satellites, et cetera. Key points for those considering participation: * You'll be paid a percentage of what the NFT you make auctions for (exact percentage to be disclosed to those who inquire and are seriously considering doing this). Most of the money from the auction goes to the Foundation charity, as this is a fundraiser for them. (If your NFT doesn't sell, then you - and they - get nothing.) * If your NFT sells, they pay me and then I pay you. I'll set this up through my business entity Winged Cat Solutions, which exists in part for this kind of project. I can't predict how quickly they will pay, but once I get the funds I will send my checks out ASAP. * These NFTs are to be generated specifically for this gala. They're not to be part of some other series. (The exclusivity is part of the value of these unique items.) * These must be complete NFTs. Just the art isn't enough. If you can make good art but can't make NFTs, you may partner with someone who can; make whatever arrangements you want between you, but my primary point of contact should be the person making the NFT. * The Foundation must be in possession of the NFT, and know how to transfer it, before the auction (possibly a few days before; I can ask if it looks like it will matter). This is easy for physical components (ship so that they receive them before the auction); for electronic, I phrase it this way because different NFT systems have different rules for what constitutes "possession" and how to transfer it. * If you have relevant cred that the audience might have heard of, I can tell the auctioneers to mention your name when auctioning the NFT you make so as to try to increase its value. (I'm looking first and foremost at Keith Henson with this point, but not only at Keith. For instance, Natasha - if participating - could no doubt craft an impressive list of associations and relevant work for the auctioneers to read off.) Anyone who's interested and may have time to create one or more NFTs in time for the gala, please contact me offlist. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 18:58:53 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 19:58:53 +0100 Subject: [ExI] sticks and things: was: RE: diets In-Reply-To: <002801d7b627$5188f970$f49aec50$@rainier66.com> References: <002801d7b627$5188f970$f49aec50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Sept 2021 at 19:22, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > I went on a cruise once, to Hawaii. Spent most of the time looking out to sea for that big swirling island of plastic trash. Never did find that, but the dolphins were surfing the wake and having a great time, which reminded me of my own surfing when I was younger than I am now, which I was able to get to because of my lousy car with the stick thing. > > Billw, there ya go, thou unbeliever. Stayed right on topic. > > spike > _______________________________________________ To change the subject, ;) you generally can't see the Great Pacific Garbage Patch. The ship might have sailed right through it. A lot of the plastic sinks down to cover the seafloor. Much doesn't float on the surface where it can be seen. But the main reason you can't see it is because most of the plastic has been broken down into microparticles. If you were in a canoe you might notice the occasional floating plastic bottle, but that's about all. The horrifying photos of piles of plastic rubbish are from beaches and harbours. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Thu Sep 30 19:41:56 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 12:41:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] sticks and things: was: RE: diets In-Reply-To: References: <002801d7b627$5188f970$f49aec50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001e01d7b633$3ad71340$b08539c0$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] sticks and things: was: RE: diets ... >>... Billw, there ya go, thou unbeliever. Stayed right on topic. > > spike > _______________________________________________ >...To change the subject, ;) you generally can't see the Great Pacific Garbage Patch. The ship might have sailed right through it... Owww, damn that is disappointing in a way. When I first heard of it, I imagined a literal bunch of floating trash out there. Imagine going out there, finding the edge, then having a race of some kind, using any technology or device the competitors want, to get across it, kind of like the first car race across the US. >...The horrifying photos of piles of plastic rubbish are from beaches and harbours... Ja I take scouts out regularly to clean up beaches. Most of what we get is bits of plastic. We get many bags of plastic bits. >...A lot of the plastic sinks down to cover the seafloor.., ....BillK I heard that too, but it didn't make a lotta sense being as polyethylene (and most other plastic) is buoyant. It did give me an idea however. You have seen barnacles on piers and such. Those have shells of calcium carbonate which is obviously more dense than water (about 2.7 g/cm3 (I have helped scrape the bottom of a boat (they sink if you break them loose from the hull.))) Polyethylene has a density generally between about .95 g/cm3, but if barnacles stick to them and devour plankton they grow and add to their calcium carbonate shells. Eventually the polyethylene bottle becomes brittle from the sun exposure and breaks down, so the remaining poly is insufficient to keep the barnacle afloat, so the bit of debris and (cursed) barnacle sink the bottom of the sea where they damn well belong. Both polyethylene and barnacles contain carbon (polyethylene is 85% carbon) so each barnacle which sinks a bit of trash sequesters carbon which would otherwise contribute to global warming. In that sense, plastic bottles don't pollute the seas, they save the planet. This is a good thing, but on the other hand, we don't get to have the epic trans-trash pile race, which sounds like a hell of a lot of fun. spike _______________________________________________ From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 20:55:38 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 15:55:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] spam Message-ID: I am getting a lot more spam on Gmail than I am used to. When I click on the spam icon it sometimes asks if I want to unsubscribe. Now my memory is not good, but I am sure that I did not subscribe to some of these outfits. Is this new? Are some of these people getting my email address and subscribing me? Some things I have marked as spam keep coming. Is there a better way to eliminate them than just marking them spam? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: