From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Mar  1 15:01:34 2022
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 09:01:34 -0600
Subject: [ExI] genetics
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaXQ=k7Rswm9QsBhkbV8MCcxhyA22_YXH01=RaHjb8+_Q@mail.gmail.com>

How come Mother Nature created the immense amount of differences among
people?  People have IQs as low as 60 and as high as 220 or so with no
discoverable physical reasons.  Other skills similar.

But mainly I want to know:  is there this amount of diversity among any
animal groups?  I, and probably most people, think of animals like bears or
chimps as being much the same, but it would seem that they aren't, but I
have no data.   bill w
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Mar  1 15:46:34 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 07:46:34 -0800
Subject: [ExI] genetics
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaXQ=k7Rswm9QsBhkbV8MCcxhyA22_YXH01=RaHjb8+_Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaXQ=k7Rswm9QsBhkbV8MCcxhyA22_YXH01=RaHjb8+_Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002b01d82d83$87f7cf80$97e76e80$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
?

 

>?But mainly I want to know:  is there this amount of diversity among any animal groups?  I, and probably most people, think of animals like bears or chimps as being much the same, but it would seem that they aren't, but I have no data.   bill 

 

 

 

 

 

Animals typical in the wild are ones we do not have sufficient data to say, but with domestic dogs, their intelligence varies more than humans, or so it would seem.  However, in dogs as in humans, it depends on the nature of the test.  I have seen what looks like retarded dogs.  Some are bred to be dumb: cocker spaniels for instance.  It worked.  Some breeds seem to be born knowing exactly what they are supposed to do, and that works too.  

 

spike

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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Mar  1 15:52:29 2022
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 15:52:29 +0000
Subject: [ExI] genetics
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaXQ=k7Rswm9QsBhkbV8MCcxhyA22_YXH01=RaHjb8+_Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaXQ=k7Rswm9QsBhkbV8MCcxhyA22_YXH01=RaHjb8+_Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armigOhupB_49sr5Cuwr-wgs-kufdC4T_Qj0fYvK8bw9ntw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 1 Mar 2022 at 15:05, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> How come Mother Nature created the immense amount of differences among people?  People have IQs as low as 60 and as high as 220 or so with no discoverable physical reasons.  Other skills similar.
>
> But mainly I want to know:  is there this amount of diversity among any animal groups?  I, and probably most people, think of animals like bears or chimps as being much the same, but it would seem that they aren't, but I have no data.   bill w
> _______________________________________________


Any dog owner will tell you that some dogs are smart and some really stupid.
Border collies and poodles are *really* smart.
Cats also have a range of IQ. Siamese cats are about the smartest.
Hard to tell though, as cats are smart enough to not co-operate with
researchers' games trying to test them.  :)


BillK

From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Mar  1 16:40:17 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 08:40:17 -0800
Subject: [ExI] genetics
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armigOhupB_49sr5Cuwr-wgs-kufdC4T_Qj0fYvK8bw9ntw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaXQ=k7Rswm9QsBhkbV8MCcxhyA22_YXH01=RaHjb8+_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armigOhupB_49sr5Cuwr-wgs-kufdC4T_Qj0fYvK8bw9ntw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000d01d82d8b$09572600$1c057200$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
BillK via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] genetics

On Tue, 1 Mar 2022 at 15:05, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> How come Mother Nature created the immense amount of differences among
people?  People have IQs as low as 60 and as high as 220 or so with no
discoverable physical reasons.  Other skills similar.
>
> But mainly I want to know:  is there this amount of diversity among any
animal groups?  I, and probably most people, think of animals like bears or
chimps as being much the same, but it would seem that they aren't, but I
have no data.   bill w
> _______________________________________________


>...Any dog owner will tell you that some dogs are smart and some really
stupid.
Border collies and poodles are *really* smart.
Cats also have a range of IQ. Siamese cats are about the smartest.
Hard to tell though, as cats are smart enough to not co-operate with
researchers' games trying to test them.  :)


BillK
_______________________________________________


I had three pure-bred Dobermans.  One was smart enough to catch and kill a
rattlesnake without getting bit.  One was smart enough to open a sliding
door (she watched us do it and did likewise (she also learned to open a door
with a lever handle (one paw on the wall, the other on the handle, push down
and pull (oh that was most impressive to see.))  One could *almost* catch a
frisbee out of the air (after which he would shred the thing.)  

None of the three Dobermans would fetch a stick.  If you threw it, they
would sit there.  If you pointed, they would look at your hand.  You would
tell them to fetch the stick, they would just look at you with a puzzled
whaaaaat expression.  The neighbor's retriever knew to fetch a stick when he
was 4 months old, no prompting required.  My dogs would watch him do it and
get good-boys, but mine never did figure out to do likewise.  (Perhaps they
were puzzled by the retriever, reasoning: the tall one threw it away, so
apparently he doesn't want it, why do you keep bringing it back you silly
dog?)

With animals, including the human kind, it depends on the IQ test Billw.

spike


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Mar  1 17:49:26 2022
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 11:49:26 -0600
Subject: [ExI] genetics
In-Reply-To: <000d01d82d8b$09572600$1c057200$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaXQ=k7Rswm9QsBhkbV8MCcxhyA22_YXH01=RaHjb8+_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armigOhupB_49sr5Cuwr-wgs-kufdC4T_Qj0fYvK8bw9ntw@mail.gmail.com>
 <000d01d82d8b$09572600$1c057200$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEan1dumMX8NK1nCank+fwyBCEWNHAzynAFK17Gjx7qQRQ@mail.gmail.com>

It is called 'prepared learning'.  A retriever will be easy to teach to
fetch.  A shepherd will herd your children, you, your cats - whatever it
can find.  Some call it instinct but that word has too many connotations.
Genetically prone to learn some things and not others.  Like us.  We are
prepared to learn things like language, they say.  People are easy to teach
to fear spiders and snakes but not doorknobs  no matter how you try.

Sure, I've had really dumb dogs.  Gave away some puppies and some wanted to
return them.  The two I had roamed everywhere and would casually walk
through an electronic fence.  One day they didn't come back, and I did not
search for them!

Surely we can tell variability in animals with simple DNA tests, no?  bill w

On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 10:42 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
> BillK via extropy-chat
> Subject: Re: [ExI] genetics
>
> On Tue, 1 Mar 2022 at 15:05, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > How come Mother Nature created the immense amount of differences among
> people?  People have IQs as low as 60 and as high as 220 or so with no
> discoverable physical reasons.  Other skills similar.
> >
> > But mainly I want to know:  is there this amount of diversity among any
> animal groups?  I, and probably most people, think of animals like bears or
> chimps as being much the same, but it would seem that they aren't, but I
> have no data.   bill w
> > _______________________________________________
>
>
> >...Any dog owner will tell you that some dogs are smart and some really
> stupid.
> Border collies and poodles are *really* smart.
> Cats also have a range of IQ. Siamese cats are about the smartest.
> Hard to tell though, as cats are smart enough to not co-operate with
> researchers' games trying to test them.  :)
>
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> I had three pure-bred Dobermans.  One was smart enough to catch and kill a
> rattlesnake without getting bit.  One was smart enough to open a sliding
> door (she watched us do it and did likewise (she also learned to open a
> door
> with a lever handle (one paw on the wall, the other on the handle, push
> down
> and pull (oh that was most impressive to see.))  One could *almost* catch a
> frisbee out of the air (after which he would shred the thing.)
>
> None of the three Dobermans would fetch a stick.  If you threw it, they
> would sit there.  If you pointed, they would look at your hand.  You would
> tell them to fetch the stick, they would just look at you with a puzzled
> whaaaaat expression.  The neighbor's retriever knew to fetch a stick when
> he
> was 4 months old, no prompting required.  My dogs would watch him do it and
> get good-boys, but mine never did figure out to do likewise.  (Perhaps they
> were puzzled by the retriever, reasoning: the tall one threw it away, so
> apparently he doesn't want it, why do you keep bringing it back you silly
> dog?)
>
> With animals, including the human kind, it depends on the IQ test Billw.
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Mar  2 00:14:41 2022
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 00:14:41 +0000
Subject: [ExI] genetics
In-Reply-To: <000d01d82d8b$09572600$1c057200$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaXQ=k7Rswm9QsBhkbV8MCcxhyA22_YXH01=RaHjb8+_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armigOhupB_49sr5Cuwr-wgs-kufdC4T_Qj0fYvK8bw9ntw@mail.gmail.com>
 <000d01d82d8b$09572600$1c057200$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhqmPjO9q0BhQDqZoWKmmYwxeuCwDbV8oZsVd1AWHjAAQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 1 Mar 2022 at 16:43, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> None of the three Dobermans would fetch a stick.  If you threw it, they
> would sit there.  If you pointed, they would look at your hand.  You would
> tell them to fetch the stick, they would just look at you with a puzzled
> whaaaaat expression.  The neighbor's retriever knew to fetch a stick when he
> was 4 months old, no prompting required.  My dogs would watch him do it and
> get good-boys, but mine never did figure out to do likewise.  (Perhaps they
> were puzzled by the retriever, reasoning: the tall one threw it away, so
> apparently he doesn't want it, why do you keep bringing it back you silly
> dog?)
>
> With animals, including the human kind, it depends on the IQ test Billw.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


The internet knows everything.   Dobermans don't have the retriever
instinct that Labrador Retrievers or  Golden Retrievers have.
Dobermans were bred as guard dogs, not for retrieving shot game birds.
Dobermans can be trained to play fetch, but it has to be a job to be
learned and can take a while for them to understand what you want them
to do. They are smart dogs, though, but it demonstrates the difference
between instinctive behavior and learning for work tasks.

BillK

From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Mar  2 04:45:37 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 20:45:37 -0800
Subject: [ExI] genetics
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhqmPjO9q0BhQDqZoWKmmYwxeuCwDbV8oZsVd1AWHjAAQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaXQ=k7Rswm9QsBhkbV8MCcxhyA22_YXH01=RaHjb8+_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armigOhupB_49sr5Cuwr-wgs-kufdC4T_Qj0fYvK8bw9ntw@mail.gmail.com>
 <000d01d82d8b$09572600$1c057200$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armhqmPjO9q0BhQDqZoWKmmYwxeuCwDbV8oZsVd1AWHjAAQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005901d82df0$5cd62a50$16827ef0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
BillK via extropy-chat


>...The internet knows everything.   Dobermans don't have the retriever
instinct that Labrador Retrievers or  Golden Retrievers have.
Dobermans were bred as guard dogs, not for retrieving shot game birds.
Dobermans can be trained to play fetch, but it has to be a job to be learned
and can take a while for them to understand what you want them to do. They
are smart dogs, though, but it demonstrates the difference between
instinctive behavior and learning for work tasks.

BillK
_______________________________________________


Ja.  All three dobies loved to chase squirrels, but only one of the three
could ever catch them.  He would devour them if he managed to catch.

If I saw a squirrel before the dogs, I would point it at.  Two of the dogs
would sit and look at my hand pointing, but never figured out to look out
that way.  I could snap and jab my finger toward the squirrel, look out that
way, make it clear I wanted something (go get him you stupid hound!) but two
of the three would just look at me, look at my snapping pointing hand,
completely puzzled.  The third dog would look the direction I pointed.  If I
told her GO she would run that way, looking around, even if she hadn't seen
the squirrel.

We all thought that was the smartest dog of the three, but it depends on the
test.  She was the one would loved people the most, and could open doors.
She was the best at interacting with her peoples.  

This is all a good lesson for those of us who think about IQ tests.  The
outcome really does depend on what you are measuring.

spike


From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Mar  2 04:59:20 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 20:59:20 -0800
Subject: [ExI] ukraine puts the argument to rest
Message-ID: <000201d82df2$47b8d260$d72a7720$@rainier66.com>



Ukraine's experience this week gives new meaning to the first 13 words of
the second amendment to the US constitution.  I expect the debate on that
matter to end after we saw that.

spike


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Mar  2 14:39:45 2022
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 08:39:45 -0600
Subject: [ExI] genetics
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armigOhupB_49sr5Cuwr-wgs-kufdC4T_Qj0fYvK8bw9ntw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaXQ=k7Rswm9QsBhkbV8MCcxhyA22_YXH01=RaHjb8+_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armigOhupB_49sr5Cuwr-wgs-kufdC4T_Qj0fYvK8bw9ntw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZihmPc357aMX93rWsw-XX2syfjO_kqRcqiZwkA6Xggpw@mail.gmail.com>

Pigs are rated very high in IQ.  I took a pig brain out in grad school and
it resembled a smaller human brain with lots of convolutions.  They also,
like cats, are difficult to train.  I'd like to know if a video version of
PHotoshop was used to make that commercial where a cat fetches a stick from
a lake, digs a guy out of the snow, and so on.  If not, there must have
been a lot of training, esp. overcoming the cat's fear of water.  I did
read a story by a researcher who trained a dog.  It was watched by a cat,
who proceeded to do what the dog learned.  Observational learning:  said to
be 'monkey see, monkey do', but in fact monkeys do not learn well this
way.  So when the cat did, it was news.   bill w

On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 9:54 AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Tue, 1 Mar 2022 at 15:05, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > How come Mother Nature created the immense amount of differences among
> people?  People have IQs as low as 60 and as high as 220 or so with no
> discoverable physical reasons.  Other skills similar.
> >
> > But mainly I want to know:  is there this amount of diversity among any
> animal groups?  I, and probably most people, think of animals like bears or
> chimps as being much the same, but it would seem that they aren't, but I
> have no data.   bill w
> > _______________________________________________
>
>
> Any dog owner will tell you that some dogs are smart and some really
> stupid.
> Border collies and poodles are *really* smart.
> Cats also have a range of IQ. Siamese cats are about the smartest.
> Hard to tell though, as cats are smart enough to not co-operate with
> researchers' games trying to test them.  :)
>
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Mar  2 17:55:52 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 09:55:52 -0800
Subject: [ExI] genetics
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhqmPjO9q0BhQDqZoWKmmYwxeuCwDbV8oZsVd1AWHjAAQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaXQ=k7Rswm9QsBhkbV8MCcxhyA22_YXH01=RaHjb8+_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armigOhupB_49sr5Cuwr-wgs-kufdC4T_Qj0fYvK8bw9ntw@mail.gmail.com>
 <000d01d82d8b$09572600$1c057200$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armhqmPjO9q0BhQDqZoWKmmYwxeuCwDbV8oZsVd1AWHjAAQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004401d82e5e$c2a6e270$47f4a750$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
BillK via extropy-chat
...
>
> With animals, including the human kind, it depends on the IQ test... spike
> _______________________________________________



My apologies in advance, but when the topic comes to dogs and intelligence,
this is priceless:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1497716075923861504

spike



From danust2012 at gmail.com  Wed Mar  2 18:40:14 2022
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 10:40:14 -0800
Subject: [ExI] genetics
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZihmPc357aMX93rWsw-XX2syfjO_kqRcqiZwkA6Xggpw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZihmPc357aMX93rWsw-XX2syfjO_kqRcqiZwkA6Xggpw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1C22937D-FD7E-48CE-A278-54B93CE98C4C@gmail.com>

On Mar 2, 2022, at 6:42 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> Pigs are rated very high in IQ.  I took a pig brain out in grad school and it resembled a smaller human brain with lots of convolutions.  They also, like cats, are difficult to train.  I'd like to know if a video version of PHotoshop was used to make that commercial where a cat fetches a stick from a lake, digs a guy out of the snow, and so on.  If not, there must have been a lot of training, esp. overcoming the cat's fear of water.  I did read a story by a researcher who trained a dog.  It was watched by a cat, who proceeded to do what the dog learned.  Observational learning:  said to be 'monkey see, monkey do', but in fact monkeys do not learn well this way.  So when the cat did, it was news.   bill w

My experience is that not all house cats are averse to being in water, so the cat in question might not have needed to be trained out of an abrasion it didn?t have. The same with regard to snow. (I take it an aversion to snow is probably because the cat hasn?t been around snow before. I?ve seen plenty cats in snow. Heck, strays and ferals wouldn?t have much of a choice in areas where it does snow.)

Regards,

Dan
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Mar  2 19:59:45 2022
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 13:59:45 -0600
Subject: [ExI] genetics
In-Reply-To: <004401d82e5e$c2a6e270$47f4a750$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaXQ=k7Rswm9QsBhkbV8MCcxhyA22_YXH01=RaHjb8+_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armigOhupB_49sr5Cuwr-wgs-kufdC4T_Qj0fYvK8bw9ntw@mail.gmail.com>
 <000d01d82d8b$09572600$1c057200$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armhqmPjO9q0BhQDqZoWKmmYwxeuCwDbV8oZsVd1AWHjAAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004401d82e5e$c2a6e270$47f4a750$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYN-z6ypjgn0ju-fsXyr6BeLY18ims--hvCeDFbhA7eTg@mail.gmail.com>

from Wikipedia - Very few species have passed the MSR test. Species that
have include the great apes <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_ape>, a
single Asiatic elephant <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiatic_elephant>,
Rays <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_(fish)>, dolphins
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphin>, orcas
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orca>, the Eurasian magpie
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_magpie>, and the cleaner wrasse
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleaner_wrasse>. A wide range of species has
been reported to fail the test, including several species of monkeys
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey>, giant pandas
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_panda>, and sea lions
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_lion>.[3]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test#cite_note-3>[4
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test#cite_note-4>

Spike, I don't know the criterion for passing the mirror test.  Certainly
the puppy understands something, but also certainly does not have the
brains of the animals above.    bill w

On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 11:58 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
> BillK via extropy-chat
> ...
> >
> > With animals, including the human kind, it depends on the IQ test...
> spike
> > _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> My apologies in advance, but when the topic comes to dogs and intelligence,
> this is priceless:
>
> https://twitter.com/i/status/1497716075923861504
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Mar  2 20:40:39 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 12:40:39 -0800
Subject: [ExI] genetics
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYN-z6ypjgn0ju-fsXyr6BeLY18ims--hvCeDFbhA7eTg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaXQ=k7Rswm9QsBhkbV8MCcxhyA22_YXH01=RaHjb8+_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armigOhupB_49sr5Cuwr-wgs-kufdC4T_Qj0fYvK8bw9ntw@mail.gmail.com>
 <000d01d82d8b$09572600$1c057200$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armhqmPjO9q0BhQDqZoWKmmYwxeuCwDbV8oZsVd1AWHjAAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004401d82e5e$c2a6e270$47f4a750$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYN-z6ypjgn0ju-fsXyr6BeLY18ims--hvCeDFbhA7eTg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003e01d82e75$d3558c40$7a00a4c0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> 
Subject: Re: [ExI] genetics

 

from Wikipedia - Very few species have passed the MSR test. Species that have include the  <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_ape> great apes, a single  <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiatic_elephant> Asiatic elephant,  <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_(fish)> Rays,  <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphin> dolphins,  <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orca> orcas, the  <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_magpie> Eurasian magpie, and the  <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleaner_wrasse> cleaner wrasse. A wide range of species has been reported to fail the test, including several species of  <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey> monkeys,  <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_panda> giant pandas, and  <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_lion> sea lions. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test#cite_note-3> [3] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test#cite_note-4> [4

 

>?Spike, I don't know the criterion for passing the mirror test.  Certainly the puppy understands something, but also certainly does not have the brains of the animals above.    bill w

 

 

Ja I am puzzled by it.  We look at beasts by species rather than by other criteria, such as breed and individual generally.  With dogs we have messed with nature so much, they bear very little resemblance to the wolves from which they descend.

 

I have seen other dogs with mirrors, where they don?t seem to notice their reflection or don?t care.  But it isn?t entirely clear that they are failing to do the image processing, or if they know that is their reflection and go on with life.

 

I have seen both dogs and cats watch TV or computer screens, definitely doing image processing.  I have seen dogs on zoom meetings recognize themselves.  I don?t recall seeing a cat do that, but perhaps they do, or some do.

 

I have seen birds attack their own reflection for extended periods, never quite getting it.  In Florida we had sand hill cranes, which can be five feet tall, come up to the house and peck away at the windows.  They never actually broke one, but they make a hell of a racket doing that.  I had half a mind to go out there and teach them to not do that, delivering that short lecture along with my assistant professor, Mister Twelve Gage.

 

spike

 

 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Mar  2 21:17:12 2022
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 15:17:12 -0600
Subject: [ExI] genetics
In-Reply-To: <003e01d82e75$d3558c40$7a00a4c0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaXQ=k7Rswm9QsBhkbV8MCcxhyA22_YXH01=RaHjb8+_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armigOhupB_49sr5Cuwr-wgs-kufdC4T_Qj0fYvK8bw9ntw@mail.gmail.com>
 <000d01d82d8b$09572600$1c057200$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armhqmPjO9q0BhQDqZoWKmmYwxeuCwDbV8oZsVd1AWHjAAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004401d82e5e$c2a6e270$47f4a750$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYN-z6ypjgn0ju-fsXyr6BeLY18ims--hvCeDFbhA7eTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003e01d82e75$d3558c40$7a00a4c0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaAtH_PLNgLkzYLZOti3Vn_S2FJBNS9d7YRSPxZvZtdfA@mail.gmail.com>

Speaking of wolves, I was startled to find out just how big they were:

https://www.google.com/search?q=actual+size+of+wolves&rlz=1CAPOUW_enUS946&sxsrf=APq-WBtxWqJ6YGu9Y-Sjcq3252iQ5KscoA:1646255685292&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&vet=1&fir=5jVcXkrWH0Lu_M%252CdXxUr8-dxW0qIM%252C_%253BxC01uEvESMzznM%252CdXxUr8-dxW0qIM%252C_%253B_7AfEkEB-aJZAM%252C_ZCRI2RKgv-LBM%252C_%253B9p_r-kuqtMrjBM%252C_MD10V_rkmrFkM%252C_%253BVwSs-VJCTNjkZM%252C9-jGJYfvMLCHkM%252C_%253BIK85hO1zsnZHLM%252CdXxUr8-dxW0qIM%252C_%253BWK_DcHkklnZ1jM%252C_MD10V_rkmrFkM%252C_%253BuTuTrrdB8MtsHM%252CXTvaLrOQbSJYpM%252C_%253BmJd8G2SuLuivyM%252CXDdYB0tg1WybPM%252C_%253BgxJv48ojHOE7MM%252CwVWFyWJHKgEN2M%252C_%253Bj2ZBRfpbbP1ZhM%252CXTvaLrOQbSJYpM%252C_%253BxKrFtWH6ukbboM%252CnqqhzpO-ww1u1M%252C_%253BH8h0bHu475D-jM%252CWV_5JwmibRnFwM%252C_&usg=AI4_-kQnzvPGYQ0C37wxBRbqYt_xCl5-oQ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj369KqrKj2AhUwlmoFHf0WDCEQ9QF6BAhaEAE&biw=1247&bih=608&dpr=1.54#imgrc=gxJv48ojHOE7MM

On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 2:44 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] genetics
>
>
>
> from Wikipedia - Very few species have passed the MSR test. Species that
> have include the great apes <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_ape>, a
> single Asiatic elephant <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiatic_elephant>,
> Rays <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_(fish)>, dolphins
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphin>, orcas
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orca>, the Eurasian magpie
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_magpie>, and the cleaner wrasse
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleaner_wrasse>. A wide range of species
> has been reported to fail the test, including several species of monkeys
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey>, giant pandas
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_panda>, and sea lions
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_lion>.[3]
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test#cite_note-3>[4
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test#cite_note-4>
>
>
>
> >?Spike, I don't know the criterion for passing the mirror test.
> Certainly the puppy understands something, but also certainly does not have
> the brains of the animals above.    bill w
>
>
>
>
>
> Ja I am puzzled by it.  We look at beasts by species rather than by other
> criteria, such as breed and individual generally.  With dogs we have messed
> with nature so much, they bear very little resemblance to the wolves from
> which they descend.
>
>
>
> I have seen other dogs with mirrors, where they don?t seem to notice their
> reflection or don?t care.  But it isn?t entirely clear that they are
> failing to do the image processing, or if they know that is their
> reflection and go on with life.
>
>
>
> I have seen both dogs and cats watch TV or computer screens, definitely
> doing image processing.  I have seen dogs on zoom meetings recognize
> themselves.  I don?t recall seeing a cat do that, but perhaps they do, or
> some do.
>
>
>
> I have seen birds attack their own reflection for extended periods, never
> quite getting it.  In Florida we had sand hill cranes, which can be five
> feet tall, come up to the house and peck away at the windows.  They never
> actually broke one, but they make a hell of a racket doing that.  I had
> half a mind to go out there and teach them to not do that, delivering that
> short lecture along with my assistant professor, Mister Twelve Gage.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Mar  3 00:29:19 2022
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 18:29:19 -0600
Subject: [ExI] this is cool
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbNUo5pvUWmhK87=eCKZexX50JybYSAho2yc3EF9q7uEQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hair color is not strictly genetic.

Why are Himalayan rabbits ears, nose, paws, and tail black?  Because those
are the cooler parts of the body.

So, get one, shave off the areas you want to turn black and apply cold
packs to those areas, and they will grow back black.

How to personalize your rabbit:  shave the areas that make up your message
(I Love Kathy) or image (patterns of flowers or porn), apply cold packs and
wait.  I assume this will reverse in time as the skin returns to its usual
temperature.  bill w
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Mar  3 00:34:37 2022
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 18:34:37 -0600
Subject: [ExI] lipoprotein(a)
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZSXgh773YYcg2LY8cZjCA9XXi9P7ZAg-A-ZxiU1auJoQ@mail.gmail.com>

Anyone have any experience with this?  I have not been tested.  Apparently
you have to ask.  Here's the article from People's Pharmacy:

https://www.peoplespharmacy.com/articles/is-lpa-the-best-kept-secret-in-heart-disease?
bill w
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Mar  3 13:47:57 2022
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 07:47:57 -0600
Subject: [ExI] rabbit
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaZR5v-wUvgzZzKdXu-295zxfwaboODr_Og6j7HnsKM1w@mail.gmail.com>

I took that whole thing out of my epigenetics book.  Established by
experiment.  You'll have to eat crow on this one.  Of course the reason I
posted it was because of the highly unusual cause of the fur change.  bill w
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From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Mar  3 13:50:59 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 05:50:59 -0800
Subject: [ExI] rabbit
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaZR5v-wUvgzZzKdXu-295zxfwaboODr_Og6j7HnsKM1w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaZR5v-wUvgzZzKdXu-295zxfwaboODr_Og6j7HnsKM1w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000801d82f05$b7565520$2602ff60$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> 
Sent: Thursday, 3 March, 2022 5:48 AM
To: spike <spike at rainier66.com>; ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: rabbit

 

I took that whole thing out of my epigenetics book.  Established by experiment.  You'll have to eat crow on this one.  Of course the reason I posted it was because of the highly unusual cause of the fur change.  bill w

 

 

 

Oh ok cool, I learn a new thing this day.  The rabbit?s skin turns black if you shave the fur off of it.  spike

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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Thu Mar  3 16:47:39 2022
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 08:47:39 -0800
Subject: [ExI] lipoprotein(a)
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZSXgh773YYcg2LY8cZjCA9XXi9P7ZAg-A-ZxiU1auJoQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZSXgh773YYcg2LY8cZjCA9XXi9P7ZAg-A-ZxiU1auJoQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9F74D0B3-586E-4761-9FEC-F90DD8C08FB7@gmail.com>

On Mar 2, 2022, at 4:37 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> Anyone have any experience with this?  I have not been tested.  Apparently you have to ask.  Here's the article from People's Pharmacy:
> 
> https://www.peoplespharmacy.com/articles/is-lpa-the-best-kept-secret-in-heart-disease?  bill w

I?ve read about it, mainly through sources like:

https://www.lifeextension.com/protocols/heart-circulatory/cholesterol-management

Regards,

Dan
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From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Mar  3 17:53:11 2022
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 17:53:11 +0000
Subject: [ExI] lipoprotein(a)
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZSXgh773YYcg2LY8cZjCA9XXi9P7ZAg-A-ZxiU1auJoQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZSXgh773YYcg2LY8cZjCA9XXi9P7ZAg-A-ZxiU1auJoQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhwdx7H_5-NNNUcfjz3GqnrvMEjrPA0g=xzxnTkhq8dtw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 3 Mar 2022 at 00:38, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Anyone have any experience with this?  I have not been tested.  Apparently you have to ask.  Here's the article from People's Pharmacy:
>
> https://www.peoplespharmacy.com/articles/is-lpa-the-best-kept-secret-in-heart-disease?  bill w
> _______________________________________________


The UK is researching this for treatments.
<https://www.heartuk.org.uk/genetic-conditions/high-lipoproteina>

Quotes:
Because Lp (a) levels are genetically determined, they do not change
throughout life and are usually unaffected by diet, lifestyle or
environment.  Once a Lp (a) level has been measured it does not
usually need to be checked again.  However it is important to continue
to monitor and be aware of other modifiable cardiovascular risk
factors.
------
Currently there are new treatments in clinical trials which stop Lp
(a) being made at genetic level. There are two treatments - one is
known as an antisense "oligonucleotide" therapy and the other is known
as small interfering or siRNA  (gene silencing) treatment.  Both
treatments prevent the transcription of Lp (a) RNA into the Apo (a)
protein and reduce Lp (a) production.
------------

It's not a secret heart disease in the UK.

BillK

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Mar  3 20:16:17 2022
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 14:16:17 -0600
Subject: [ExI] lipoprotein(a)
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhwdx7H_5-NNNUcfjz3GqnrvMEjrPA0g=xzxnTkhq8dtw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZSXgh773YYcg2LY8cZjCA9XXi9P7ZAg-A-ZxiU1auJoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhwdx7H_5-NNNUcfjz3GqnrvMEjrPA0g=xzxnTkhq8dtw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZ6VT5+_Z5o8+ZB+pH4u3sgfb_dCMUmBk1rkk9NJdX2Rw@mail.gmail.com>

Hmm.  I read where niacin in some form is used on the lipoprotein.  bill w

On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 11:55 AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022 at 00:38, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > Anyone have any experience with this?  I have not been tested.
> Apparently you have to ask.  Here's the article from People's Pharmacy:
> >
> >
> https://www.peoplespharmacy.com/articles/is-lpa-the-best-kept-secret-in-heart-disease?
> bill w
> > _______________________________________________
>
>
> The UK is researching this for treatments.
> <https://www.heartuk.org.uk/genetic-conditions/high-lipoproteina>
>
> Quotes:
> Because Lp (a) levels are genetically determined, they do not change
> throughout life and are usually unaffected by diet, lifestyle or
> environment.  Once a Lp (a) level has been measured it does not
> usually need to be checked again.  However it is important to continue
> to monitor and be aware of other modifiable cardiovascular risk
> factors.
> ------
> Currently there are new treatments in clinical trials which stop Lp
> (a) being made at genetic level. There are two treatments - one is
> known as an antisense "oligonucleotide" therapy and the other is known
> as small interfering or siRNA  (gene silencing) treatment.  Both
> treatments prevent the transcription of Lp (a) RNA into the Apo (a)
> protein and reduce Lp (a) production.
> ------------
>
> It's not a secret heart disease in the UK.
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Thu Mar  3 20:33:08 2022
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 12:33:08 -0800
Subject: [ExI] lipoprotein(a)
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZ6VT5+_Z5o8+ZB+pH4u3sgfb_dCMUmBk1rkk9NJdX2Rw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZ6VT5+_Z5o8+ZB+pH4u3sgfb_dCMUmBk1rkk9NJdX2Rw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2900DDF0-4008-424D-8451-8362EE79EBC4@gmail.com>

On Mar 3, 2022, at 12:18 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> Hmm.  I read where niacin in some form is used on the lipoprotein.  bill w

If you read the nutrients section of the following protocol, you?ll see niacin mentioned among other things:

https://www.lifeextension.com/protocols/heart-circulatory/cholesterol-management

I?m curious about people here. Since it seems to go along with Extropianism that one would be interested in a long if not infinite life, why there?s little mention of the Life Extension Foundation. To me, it seems like the ?go to? site for health info, though, sure, one shouldn?t go there exclusively.

Regards,

Dan  
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From tech101 at gmail.com  Thu Mar  3 23:51:27 2022
From: tech101 at gmail.com (Adam A. Ford)
Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 10:51:27 +1100
Subject: [ExI] Online event soon - Foresight Superpowers: Anticipating,
 Creating, & Leading the Accelerating Future
Message-ID: <CABG8Bmyc+m++pT_O1Hp0Z44gSLocb6fSc5Pxr9SMCuJ8hUSYyw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

John Smart will give an outline of topics in his new book '*Introduction to
Foresight: Personal, Team, and Organizational Adaptiveness
<https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Foresight-Executive-Organizational-Adaptiveness/dp/1736558501/>*'.
There will be time to participate in Q&A afterwards.

Topic: *Foresight as Our Superpower /w John Smart*
Time:
AEST: Mar 5, 2022 09:00 AM (Canberra, Melbourne, Sydney)
PST: Mar 4, 2020 02:00 pm (California)
MST: Mar 4, 2020 03:00 pm

Join Zoom Meeting
https://us02web.zoom.us/j/85208546332?pwd=b0RjM0ZkUjhHbG5EMjR1K0Zqb0VNUT09
Meeting ID: 852 0854 6332
pass : 383741

John will also speak at the up and coming conference '*Stepping into the
Future <http://www.scifuture.org/events/stepping-into-the-future/>*' -in
late april -  this talk is titled '*The Goodness of the Universe: Outer
Space, Inner Space, and the Future of Networks
<http://www.scifuture.org/the-goodness-of-the-universe-outer-space-inner-space-and-the-future-of-networks-w-john-smart/>*
'

For background to this event, John gave an 80 in talk + Q&A on that topic
in December at the Bay Area Future Salon, posted here
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiiYXsiyRpE>.

*John Smart <https://transhumanism.fandom.com/wiki/John_Smart_(futurist)>*
is a futurist and scholar of accelerating change. He is CEO of Foresight
University, founder of the Acceleration Studies Foundation, and co-founder
of the Evo-Devo Universe research community, and the Brain Preservation
Foundation. He is editor of Evolution, Development, and Complexity
(Springer 2019), and Introduction to Foresight: Personal, Team, and
Organizational Adaptiveness
<https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Foresight-Executive-Organizational-Adaptiveness/dp/1736558501/>
(Foresight U Press 2022). He is also author of The Transcension Hypothesis
<https://www.researchgate.net/publication/256935188_The_transcension_hypothesis_Sufficiently_advanced_civilizations_invariably_leave_our_universe_and_implications_for_METI_and_SETI>
(2011), the proposal that universal development guides leading adaptive
networks increasingly into physical and virtual inner space.
I hope you all can make it.



Kind regards,

Adam A. Ford
AU Mobile +61 421 979977

Chair - Science, Technology & the Future <http://scifuture.org> - (Meetup
<http://www.meetup.com/Science-Technology-and-the-Future> / Facebook
<https://www.facebook.com/groups/ScienceTechnologyFuture> / YouTube
<http://youtube.com/subscription_center?add_user=TheRationalFuture> /
Instagram <http://isntagram.com/scifuture> / Twitter
<https://twitter.com/adam_ford>) - Convener,  H+ Australia | Singularity
Summit Australia <http://singularitysummit.com.au>

"A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move
toward higher levels." - Albert Einstein,  May 1946)
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From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Mar  4 22:51:43 2022
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 22:51:43 +0000
Subject: [ExI] First California solar canal project
Message-ID: <CAL_armirJBk07aW2oHiXLTY9T28uttu2jx1PEKEndApAPrdK0A@mail.gmail.com>

First solar canal project is a win for water, energy, air and climate
in California
February 22, 2022
Roger Bales
Distinguished Professor of Engineering, University of California, Merced

<https://theconversation.com/first-solar-canal-project-is-a-win-for-water-energy-air-and-climate-in-california-177433>

Quotes:
About 4,000 miles of canals transport water to some 35 million
Californians and 5.7 million acres of farmland across the state. As we
explained in a 2021 study, covering these canals with solar panels
would reduce evaporation of precious water ? one of California?s most
critical resources ? and help meet the state?s renewable energy goals,
while also saving money.

Installing solar panels over the canals makes both systems more
efficient. The solar panels would reduce evaporation from the canals,
especially during hot California summers. And because water heats up
more slowly than land, the canal water flowing beneath the panels
could cool them by 10 F, boosting production of electricity by up to
3%.

Turlock Irrigation District, in California?s San Joaquin Valley, will
build the first solar canal prototype in partnership with project
developer Solar Aquagrid, researchers and others and supported by the
state Department of Water Resources.
--------------

Sounds like a good idea!
One possible downside (not mentioned in the article) is that in the UK
canals and rivers support a very large summer holiday boating leisure
industry. Sometimes there are so many hire cruisers on the canals that
traffic jams occur.  Perhaps Californians don't do river cruising,
with stops at convenient riverside bars.  :)
Covering the canals with solar panels would make that impossible.

BillK


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Mar  5 02:03:45 2022
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 20:03:45 -0600
Subject: [ExI] First California solar canal project
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armirJBk07aW2oHiXLTY9T28uttu2jx1PEKEndApAPrdK0A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armirJBk07aW2oHiXLTY9T28uttu2jx1PEKEndApAPrdK0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZuVca4riaU=NzkyHK-VSzD5OQD=DxHfV1bAJqwuuFv6A@mail.gmail.com>

They would not have to cover the entire area of the canals for this
project.  Leave a few miles near towns clear of the panels.  Lots of room -
4000 miles.  bill w

On Fri, Mar 4, 2022 at 4:54 PM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> First solar canal project is a win for water, energy, air and climate
> in California
> February 22, 2022
> Roger Bales
> Distinguished Professor of Engineering, University of California, Merced
>
> <
> https://theconversation.com/first-solar-canal-project-is-a-win-for-water-energy-air-and-climate-in-california-177433
> >
>
> Quotes:
> About 4,000 miles of canals transport water to some 35 million
> Californians and 5.7 million acres of farmland across the state. As we
> explained in a 2021 study, covering these canals with solar panels
> would reduce evaporation of precious water ? one of California?s most
> critical resources ? and help meet the state?s renewable energy goals,
> while also saving money.
>
> Installing solar panels over the canals makes both systems more
> efficient. The solar panels would reduce evaporation from the canals,
> especially during hot California summers. And because water heats up
> more slowly than land, the canal water flowing beneath the panels
> could cool them by 10 F, boosting production of electricity by up to
> 3%.
>
> Turlock Irrigation District, in California?s San Joaquin Valley, will
> build the first solar canal prototype in partnership with project
> developer Solar Aquagrid, researchers and others and supported by the
> state Department of Water Resources.
> --------------
>
> Sounds like a good idea!
> One possible downside (not mentioned in the article) is that in the UK
> canals and rivers support a very large summer holiday boating leisure
> industry. Sometimes there are so many hire cruisers on the canals that
> traffic jams occur.  Perhaps Californians don't do river cruising,
> with stops at convenient riverside bars.  :)
> Covering the canals with solar panels would make that impossible.
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Mar  8 20:41:06 2022
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 20:41:06 +0000
Subject: [ExI] The Internet has changed US kids
Message-ID: <CAL_armjfaXS9xDV4TE61O7YuL3xOeCTow9wPgKSHADfEg18x8g@mail.gmail.com>

American Children Losing Motivation and Creativity, Teachers Say
By Jackson Elliott March 6, 2022

<https://www.theepochtimes.com/american-children-losing-motivation-and-creativity-teachers-say_4309077.html>

Quotes:
American children are less creative and less motivated than past
generations. When teachers compare today?s children with their peers
from only a few years ago, there?s a clear difference, according to
Page Park, an Indiana teacher with 24 years of experience.

?They don?t know how to think for themselves, too. I do have a few
kids that are really good at problem-solving, but not as many. They?re
not good at problem-solving,? she said.

Park said that since she first started teaching, creativity has
declined. Students today don?t look for solutions to simple problems.

When Park looks at her classroom, she sees a disconnected generation.

Page Park, an experienced Indiana teacher, says that kids today aren?t
as creative or motivated as kids in the past.  ?They talk about games
a lot. They never talk about going outside. They talk about staying up
late. Their sleep rhythms are awful,? Park said.

With access to the internet and parents who quickly intervene instead
of letting kids struggle a little, children approach life as if
someone else will always solve their problems, she said.

?Every little problem that they have is immediately solved for them.
And if it can?t be solved by their parents, they just find a resource
online.?

Psychologists call this sort of dependence on others ?learned
helplessness.? When parents help their children too much, children
conclude that they don?t have agency.

The problems caused by learned helplessness resemble the problems
caused by too much time online. They include depression,
underachievement, and anxiety.
----------------------

Quite a long article. The older generation has always complained about
"kids these days!", but there does seem to be something strange with
kids today.

BillK


From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Mar 11 03:19:08 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 19:19:08 -0800
Subject: [ExI] billk's article
Message-ID: <001801d834f6$c6321600$52964200$@rainier66.com>

 

A few days ago, BillK posted an article on students' ability to creatively
solve problems.  The author opined that their ability was declining (I don't
doubt the conclusion.)  That has been rattling around in my brain for a few
days.  I came up with some thoughts.

 

A long time ago, it was noticed that physical fitness among school-aged
children in the USA was declining, by completely objective measures: pull
ups, sit-ups, running, etc.  

 

It isn't quite so simple as that, for the top scholastic athletes are not
declining, but rather improving.  We can explain that of course with better
training, nutrition, incentives (scholarships) and so on.  So while the
average performance declines, the elite get faster and stronger.

 

I am involved with coaching American Math Competition at the local high
school.  We have access to historical results on that test and the test
itself.  Our club trains by taking those old tests (which go back 70 years
(math doesn't change much.))  Our club performs well above the historic
averages.  However. that club only contains students who take competition
math seriously, so I don't really know how to interpret those results.

 

Back to physical fitness: we have seen physical performance of the young
decline for decades, but it should come as no shock: now students have the
option to sit on their butts and play video games, as opposed to in the long
time agos, there wasn't much to do inside of one's house generally.  Watch
TV one might suppose, if one could tolerate reruns of Gilligan's Island and
such.  Most of the fun was outdoors, doing something physical, preferably
dangerous as well.  Now, most kids entertain themselves indoors.

 

OK then, now consider the older set, say the 60 something crowd.  Think back
on when you were a teen.  How did you view those who were then in their 60s?
How common was it to see 60 somethings out running, riding bicycles, hiking,
generally doing fitness things?  As I recall, it was not common.  Plenty of
men worked until age 65, then spun into the ground rather quickly after
that.  But now they generally don't.  A much more common style is to use the
retirement years as an opportunity to get in shape physically.

 

The physical prowess of the average teen has been declining for decades, and
is still.  I am tempted to speculate that the physical prowess of the
average 80 year old is increasing (and has been for decades.)  I might even
guess the average 60 year old today is in better shape than his 1972
counterpart.  But I don't know this and don't know how to get at that data.

 

Ideas please?

 

I am coming at BillK's article around the back way, for once we get some
framework upon which to think about this, I want to go towards older
people's creative problem solving ability.

 

spike   

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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 11 04:38:30 2022
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 20:38:30 -0800
Subject: [ExI] billk's article
In-Reply-To: <001801d834f6$c6321600$52964200$@rainier66.com>
References: <001801d834f6$c6321600$52964200$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <5321FBF7-3C7D-47AF-8677-5773FEBBA2FB@gmail.com>

On Mar 10, 2022, at 7:21 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> A few days ago, BillK posted an article on students? ability to creatively solve problems.  The author opined that their ability was declining (I don?t doubt the conclusion.)  That has been rattling around in my brain for a few days.  I came up with some thoughts.
>  
> A long time ago, it was noticed that physical fitness among school-aged children in the USA was declining, by completely objective measures: pull ups, sit-ups, running, etc. 
>  
> It isn?t quite so simple as that, for the top scholastic athletes are not declining, but rather improving.  We can explain that of course with better training, nutrition, incentives (scholarships) and so on.  So while the average performance declines, the elite get faster and stronger.
>  
> I am involved with coaching American Math Competition at the local high school.  We have access to historical results on that test and the test itself.  Our club trains by taking those old tests (which go back 70 years (math doesn?t change much.))  Our club performs well above the historic averages.  However? that club only contains students who take competition math seriously, so I don?t really know how to interpret those results.
>  
> Back to physical fitness: we have seen physical performance of the young decline for decades, but it should come as no shock: now students have the option to sit on their butts and play video games, as opposed to in the long time agos, there wasn?t much to do inside of one?s house generally.  Watch TV one might suppose, if one could tolerate reruns of Gilligan?s Island and such.  Most of the fun was outdoors, doing something physical, preferably dangerous as well.  Now, most kids entertain themselves indoors.
>  
> OK then, now consider the older set, say the 60 something crowd.  Think back on when you were a teen.  How did you view those who were then in their 60s?  How common was it to see 60 somethings out running, riding bicycles, hiking, generally doing fitness things?  As I recall, it was not common.  Plenty of men worked until age 65, then spun into the ground rather quickly after that.  But now they generally don?t.  A much more common style is to use the retirement years as an opportunity to get in shape physically.
>  
> The physical prowess of the average teen has been declining for decades, and is still.  I am tempted to speculate that the physical prowess of the average 80 year old is increasing (and has been for decades.)  I might even guess the average 60 year old today is in better shape than his 1972 counterpart.  But I don?t know this and don?t know how to get at that data.
>  
> Ideas please?
>  
> I am coming at BillK?s article around the back way, for once we get some framework upon which to think about this, I want to go towards older people?s creative problem solving ability.
>  
> spike   

I wonder how much of this is due to automobile culture and shift to the suburbs. Also, work itself has shifted from more physically involved to less physically involved.

I wonder too if there aren?t sample effects here. For instance, if a society doesn?t push every kid to go to college, then probably fewer kids will go and those who do will be more ?pre-selected? for college, maybe being better prepared and having better overall outcomes. If you then compare it to a society that does push every kid to go to college, then you might just by looking at the results presume kids in the latter are not as smart or as driven as kids in the former. But this is mere selection effect. I?m not saying this can?t be ameliorated ? just that the problem isn?t with kids being overall worse?. It?s more a problem of how the data is analyzed.

Finally, while those measures are objective ? pull ups and so forth ? in a sense ? they?re easy to measure and tabulate ? do they actually measure fitness well? I wouldn?t want to end up with a circular definition ? the physically fit person is one who does well in the physical fitness test which doesn?t have much to do with anything else.

Now saying the above, I?m entering into the frat without having looked at the data, read the studies and reports, etc. So take my comments with that caveat.

Regards,

Dan
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From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Mar 11 11:07:17 2022
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 11:07:17 +0000
Subject: [ExI] billk's article
In-Reply-To: <001801d834f6$c6321600$52964200$@rainier66.com>
References: <001801d834f6$c6321600$52964200$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgfsQ=E5aqwim=Aj4ojmE5Dd6npP9YXmNb9fpgJj5w=+w@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 at 03:22, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
<big snip>
>
> The physical prowess of the average teen has been declining for decades, and is still.  I am tempted to speculate that the physical prowess of the average 80 year old is increasing (and has been for decades.)  I might even guess the average 60 year old today is in better shape than his 1972 counterpart.  But I don?t know this and don?t know how to get at that data.
>
> Ideas please?
>
> I am coming at BillK?s article around the back way, for once we get some framework upon which to think about this, I want to go towards older people?s creative problem solving ability.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


A search on 'USA fitness statistics by age' seems to sort of agree
with Spike's theory.
(USA is needed as it seems to be different in Europe).
<https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/exercise.htm>

Specifically -
<https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/hus/contents2019.htm?search=Physical_activity/inactivity,>

All age groups in the US seem to be increasing slightly (or staying
about the same) in fitness.
The problem is the fitness percentage is only about one third of the
18-44 age group and reducing to about 10% of the over 75 age group.
So, yes, there has been an increase in fitness for some older people,
but most are still unfit.


BillK


From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Mar 11 14:21:15 2022
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 14:21:15 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Weapons Of Financial Destruction
Message-ID: <CAL_armj4Mfj_bYw-+W6xVaS6_Er6+EHzedg+ZGy_RgSURjrBiQ@mail.gmail.com>

Weapons Of Financial Destruction And The New World Disorder

Biden didn't have to take a blowtorch to the financial system in
response to the Russian invasion of Ukraine. But he has done so.

MARCH 9, 2022    DAVID C. HENDRICKSON

<https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/weapons-of-financial-destruction-and-the-new-world-disorder/>

Quotes:

The comprehensive sanctions the United States and the West have
imposed on Russia take us into an entirely new world. The sanctions
are multidimensional, but most important is the ?freezing? of Russian
foreign exchange reserves, what President Biden called Putin?s $630
billion war fund in his State of the Union. This action means that all
previous economic contracts between Russia and the West are invalid.
Biden?s figure was probably overstated by half, but the precise figure
doesn?t matter. It?s the principle that counts.

The effective nullification of contracts is the Big Enchilada, an
H-Bomb rather than an A-Bomb, a 50-megaton Weapon of Financial
Destruction (WFD). Without bothering to announce it, the United States
and its allies have thrown a wrench into the gears of important
sectors of the world economy. They are badly underestimating the
fallout. Remarkably, they did this against the backdrop of a worldwide
crisis in supply chains. That is about to get a lot worse.
- - - - - - -
The unsettling conclusion is that everything we learned about the
workings of the international economy must be reassessed, given that
so many of its basic underpinnings have been overturned. Don?t think
of trade in the dreamy way that economists talk about it, with
everyone exchanging goods and services in Benthamite bliss at the joys
of utility maximization. No, it won?t be like that.

Instead, batten down the hatches for neo-mercantilism on steroids. At
some of its most salient junctures, exchange between the blocs will be
like two rival gangs of mafiosi making a guns-for-drugs
swap?disagreeable, but necessary?and coming to the transaction in a
remote warehouse with lots of armed backup just in case. ?Let me see
the merchandise. Don?t try to pull a fast one.?
------------------------------


This article is sort of political, in the sense that the End of the
World is also political.   :(
As the article mentions en passant, the elephant in the room is the 30
trillion (and rising) USA national debt.
To fix that means the destruction of the nation's savings, pensions,
jobs and economy. So the politicians responsible for that financial
disaster need a really good excuse to do that and avoid being
executed.
Something very much like World War III.

BillK


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 11 16:05:19 2022
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 10:05:19 -0600
Subject: [ExI] billk's article
In-Reply-To: <001801d834f6$c6321600$52964200$@rainier66.com>
References: <001801d834f6$c6321600$52964200$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZ92nVTris0Y9trVQYhr=0FFqiCF-DfhH2yo2LcQz1GVQ@mail.gmail.com>

Just saw this morning a factoid:  in the time since they were domesticated,
cats' brains have shrunk.  Well, you say, of course.  They don't have to
have the hunting skills, the dealing with other predators skills, etc.
Just be cute and purr when petted.

Physical exercise  and physical games help keep the brain alert as well as
keep muscles toned.  A consultant came to our little liberal arts college
and the first thing on his agenda was to favor more phys. ed.    bill w

On Thu, Mar 10, 2022 at 9:21 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> A few days ago, BillK posted an article on students? ability to creatively
> solve problems.  The author opined that their ability was declining (I
> don?t doubt the conclusion.)  That has been rattling around in my brain for
> a few days.  I came up with some thoughts.
>
>
>
> A long time ago, it was noticed that physical fitness among school-aged
> children in the USA was declining, by completely objective measures: pull
> ups, sit-ups, running, etc.
>
>
>
> It isn?t quite so simple as that, for the top scholastic athletes are not
> declining, but rather improving.  We can explain that of course with better
> training, nutrition, incentives (scholarships) and so on.  So while the
> average performance declines, the elite get faster and stronger.
>
>
>
> I am involved with coaching American Math Competition at the local high
> school.  We have access to historical results on that test and the test
> itself.  Our club trains by taking those old tests (which go back 70 years
> (math doesn?t change much.))  Our club performs well above the historic
> averages.  However? that club only contains students who take competition
> math seriously, so I don?t really know how to interpret those results.
>
>
>
> Back to physical fitness: we have seen physical performance of the young
> decline for decades, but it should come as no shock: now students have the
> option to sit on their butts and play video games, as opposed to in the
> long time agos, there wasn?t much to do inside of one?s house generally.
> Watch TV one might suppose, if one could tolerate reruns of Gilligan?s
> Island and such.  Most of the fun was outdoors, doing something physical,
> preferably dangerous as well.  Now, most kids entertain themselves indoors.
>
>
>
> OK then, now consider the older set, say the 60 something crowd.  Think
> back on when you were a teen.  How did you view those who were then in
> their 60s?  How common was it to see 60 somethings out running, riding
> bicycles, hiking, generally doing fitness things?  As I recall, it was not
> common.  Plenty of men worked until age 65, then spun into the ground
> rather quickly after that.  But now they generally don?t.  A much more
> common style is to use the retirement years as an opportunity to get in
> shape physically.
>
>
>
> The physical prowess of the average teen has been declining for decades,
> and is still.  I am tempted to speculate that the physical prowess of the
> average 80 year old is increasing (and has been for decades.)  I might even
> guess the average 60 year old today is in better shape than his 1972
> counterpart.  But I don?t know this and don?t know how to get at that data.
>
>
>
> Ideas please?
>
>
>
> I am coming at BillK?s article around the back way, for once we get some
> framework upon which to think about this, I want to go towards older
> people?s creative problem solving ability.
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Mar 11 17:18:05 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 09:18:05 -0800
Subject: [ExI] bitcoin again
Message-ID: <000f01d8356b$f9412ac0$ebc38040$@rainier66.com>

 

 

About 20 yrs ago, we concluded that the critical factor in the value of a
currency is not what is behind the currency, but rather how the supply of
the currency is controlled.  It can be gold backed, silver backed,
government promise backed, it doesn't matter, only that it isn't created
arbitrarily.

 

The US government came to the same conclusion simultaneously, so it borrowed
and spent the value behind its own currency, while Hal's group (BitCoin)
invented a way to control supply of a currency based on compute time,
secured by block chain.  They created a currency representing no actual
value, representing no precious metals or anything else, no government
promises behind it, acknowledging this right up front.  Its only real asset
as a currency is that the supply is controlled in such a way that it is
impossible to counterfeit or print in arbitrary quantities, unlike all fiat
currencies.

 

This is what happened:

 

https://www.google.com/finance/quote/BTC-USD?sa=X
<https://www.google.com/finance/quote/BTC-USD?sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj3pqyYx772AhUZ
ITQIHQRrDc8Q-fUHegQIGxAS&window=5Y>
&ved=2ahUKEwj3pqyYx772AhUZITQIHQRrDc8Q-fUHegQIGxAS&window=5Y

 

spike

 

 

 

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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sat Mar 12 11:56:46 2022
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 04:56:46 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Apple Pi
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFjPUmvHM-QFJFW7tR_Tns-cDvhpgdjsuJsUeXW5ZetGDA@mail.gmail.com>

I was just musing about why is there something rather than nothing. This
question has bedeviled humans since time immemorial. God was invented as an
answer, and clever scholastics created whole whirlpools of circular
reasoning around the question - like "God is perfect, non-existence is
imperfect, so god must exist and he said "Fiat lux", so there we are,
something rather than nothing, so praise god".

But what if we try to dissect the psychology behind our questioning of
existence? When we think about anything at all aside from formal systems we
use our built-in intuitions. Intuitions are feelings about what is likely
to happen, what is likely to be, based on a complex, non-verbalized thought
process that develops in our minds from evolved mind forms that interact
with sensory inputs and various physical processes in our brains. In
creating formal systems we attempt to strip the complexity of intuitions
down to almost nothing, until only the inevitable remains, shaped by its
internal logic, seemingly unconnected to the complex world around us. The
crystalline purity of mathematics is thus chiseled out of the messy swirl
of our thoughts.

Our thinking about the observable world, such as apples, is full of
intuitions, rules of thumb imprinted on our mind by what we see. One of the
intuitions is the idea of "not being anymore". If you eat an apple, it's
not there. It is possible for an apple to not exist. This thought is
embedded in an enormous set of assumptions about our world, and not just
any world but the world where apples exist and are sometimes eaten. There
is a lot of complexity here, including the notions of time, identity,
space, hunger and deprivation. We think about the non-existence of apples
as something important in part because we have evolved to care about having
access to food. We think about our death because ancestors who had an
abstract fear of death were better able to use abstractions to solve
long-term challenges to their existence and thus gave us the genes for
thinking and the genes for fearing death. Everything that we think about
apples and us is highly theory-laden and sits on top of enormous complexity.

By contrast, formal systems are simple. They might impose a psychological
burden on us because we are not evolved to think specifically about them,
which is why there are so few mathematicians but by cutting off the complex
intuitions built into our minds we investigate entities that appear to be
inevitable, that have structures independent of our quotidian intuitions.
Take the number pi. It's defined in a very simple way yet its decimal
extension is an infinity of digits, unpredictable except by laboriously
computing them, every one of them in its place, too large to be stored in
any mind or computer but still inevitable. The mathematician exposed to
thinking about pi and other such entities soon develops the intuition of
timeless existence, Platonic form, something that is intangible but
unavoidably true. Mathematicians do not obsess about why pi is the way it
is, because pi is as it must be. They don't worry about pi not being there,
because the intuition tells them it cannot disappear and that's it. Case
closed.

So we have the high-level intuition about physical objects being able to
just be gone and we have the mathematical intuition about entities that are
outside of time, inevitable and thus beyond the question of cause and
effect. Pi is. It must be. God didn't invent pi. The question "Why is there
pi?" is ill-posed. Which intuition is true? Well, both, as long as you
apply the correct intuition (or rule-of-thumb) in the right context. You
can run out of apples, which may be important for survival, but you can't
run out of pi.

The nagging feeling that there must be a cause for existence in general and
the worry that it could just stop being comes from applying the intuition
we have about apples to the whole world, the sum-all of everything we can
think of, and then some. But is Being like an apple, or is it like pi?

Men much cleverer than I, such as Stephen Wolfram, Joscha Bach and others
say that the world is a formal system, a mathematical Being, and I feel
they are right, and have felt this way for many decades. All rules are
applied, the ruliad exists like pi because it is not possible for
mathematical things not to be. We are embedded in this formal system and we
create the intuitions we need to deal with our immediate vicinity but these
intuitions are ill-suited to the formal system itself. You need to clear
your mind of thoughts about apples and think about the world like
mathematicians think about numbers.

The world is not an apple, it is pi. Something exists. It must.

Rafal

-- 
Rafal Smigrodzki, MD-PhD
Schuyler Biotech PLLC
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From jasonresch at gmail.com  Sat Mar 12 13:23:35 2022
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 07:23:35 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Apple Pi
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFjPUmvHM-QFJFW7tR_Tns-cDvhpgdjsuJsUeXW5ZetGDA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFjPUmvHM-QFJFW7tR_Tns-cDvhpgdjsuJsUeXW5ZetGDA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+BCJUgT=rqqR1ypv9_91ao-A2bVeksDSkuzUB3+np4pL5GUSA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 5:58 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I was just musing about why is there something rather than nothing. This
> question has bedeviled humans since time immemorial. God was invented as an
> answer, and clever scholastics created whole whirlpools of circular
> reasoning around the question - like "God is perfect, non-existence is
> imperfect, so god must exist and he said "Fiat lux", so there we are,
> something rather than nothing, so praise god".
>
> But what if we try to dissect the psychology behind our questioning of
> existence? When we think about anything at all aside from formal systems we
> use our built-in intuitions. Intuitions are feelings about what is likely
> to happen, what is likely to be, based on a complex, non-verbalized thought
> process that develops in our minds from evolved mind forms that interact
> with sensory inputs and various physical processes in our brains. In
> creating formal systems we attempt to strip the complexity of intuitions
> down to almost nothing, until only the inevitable remains, shaped by its
> internal logic, seemingly unconnected to the complex world around us. The
> crystalline purity of mathematics is thus chiseled out of the messy swirl
> of our thoughts.
>
> Our thinking about the observable world, such as apples, is full of
> intuitions, rules of thumb imprinted on our mind by what we see. One of the
> intuitions is the idea of "not being anymore". If you eat an apple, it's
> not there. It is possible for an apple to not exist. This thought is
> embedded in an enormous set of assumptions about our world, and not just
> any world but the world where apples exist and are sometimes eaten.
>

"Object permanence" -- the psychological term for the understanding that
objects continue to exist even when no longer being sensed -- is learned.
Young children don't have it.

Likely it develops after the brain notices repeated reappearances of
objects that formerly disappeared from one's senses. Perhaps this is what
the game of peek-a-boo is meant to help teach.

But as we never encounter objects from the past reappearing in the present,
most humans, unless they study relativity, study Parmenides, or develop a
taste for Platonism, never come to develop "object permanence" for past and
future events. We are fooled into thinking that because we can't see the
past or future that they must not exist.


There is a lot of complexity here, including the notions of time, identity,
> space, hunger and deprivation. We think about the non-existence of apples
> as something important in part because we have evolved to care about having
> access to food. We think about our death because ancestors who had an
> abstract fear of death were better able to use abstractions to solve
> long-term challenges to their existence and thus gave us the genes for
> thinking and the genes for fearing death. Everything that we think about
> apples and us is highly theory-laden and sits on top of enormous complexity.
>
> By contrast, formal systems are simple. They might impose a psychological
> burden on us because we are not evolved to think specifically about them,
> which is why there are so few mathematicians but by cutting off the complex
> intuitions built into our minds we investigate entities that appear to be
> inevitable, that have structures independent of our quotidian intuitions.
> Take the number pi. It's defined in a very simple way yet its decimal
> extension is an infinity of digits, unpredictable except by laboriously
> computing them, every one of them in its place, too large to be stored in
> any mind or computer but still inevitable. The mathematician exposed to
> thinking about pi and other such entities soon develops the intuition of
> timeless existence, Platonic form, something that is intangible but
> unavoidably true. Mathematicians do not obsess about why pi is the way it
> is, because pi is as it must be. They don't worry about pi not being there,
> because the intuition tells them it cannot disappear and that's it. Case
> closed.
>
> So we have the high-level intuition about physical objects being able to
> just be gone and we have the mathematical intuition about entities that are
> outside of time, inevitable and thus beyond the question of cause and
> effect. Pi is. It must be. God didn't invent pi. The question "Why is there
> pi?" is ill-posed. Which intuition is true? Well, both, as long as you
> apply the correct intuition (or rule-of-thumb) in the right context. You
> can run out of apples, which may be important for survival, but you can't
> run out of pi.
>
> The nagging feeling that there must be a cause for existence in general
> and the worry that it could just stop being comes from applying the
> intuition we have about apples to the whole world, the sum-all of
> everything we can think of, and then some. But is Being like an apple, or
> is it like pi?
>

I think all being is of the same kind: the necessary, mathematical,
platonic kind.

It is easier to understand our universe as a kind of platonic object once
you come to see it as a static four dimensional object, and time as a
subjective illusion for some substructures embedded within it. I write
about this in more detail here:

https://alwaysasking.com/what-is-time/



> Men much cleverer than I, such as Stephen Wolfram, Joscha Bach and others
> say that the world is a formal system, a mathematical Being, and I feel
> they are right, and have felt this way for many decades.
>

I would add an additional, abd subtle point. That is, if the world exists
as a mathematical being, then an infinity of all possible universes exist.

Then our own consciousness minds, being finite objects of finite
complexity, will find our existence compatible with an ever changing, yet
infinite set of different such universes (as our memories and conscious
experience at any time will always be compatible with many such universes.

So we cannot really speak of our universe being any single formal object,
but rather we may have to speak of an infinite collection of different
formal objects. There's now strong reasons to believe this as it apparently
can explain many previously unanswerable questions concerning "why quantum
mechanics?"

I write about this here:
https://alwaysasking.com/why-does-anything-exist/#Why_Quantum_Mechanics

All rules are applied, the ruliad exists like pi because it is not possible
> for mathematical things not to be. We are embedded in this formal system
> and we create the intuitions we need to deal with our immediate vicinity
> but these intuitions are ill-suited to the formal system itself. You need
> to clear your mind of thoughts about apples and think about the world like
> mathematicians think about numbers.
>
> The world is not an apple, it is pi. Something exists. It must.
>

Very well said, I agree!

Jason
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From gadersd at gmail.com  Sat Mar 12 15:04:38 2022
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Hermes Trismegistus)
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 10:04:38 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Apple Pi
In-Reply-To: <CA+BCJUgT=rqqR1ypv9_91ao-A2bVeksDSkuzUB3+np4pL5GUSA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFjPUmvHM-QFJFW7tR_Tns-cDvhpgdjsuJsUeXW5ZetGDA@mail.gmail.com>,
 <CA+BCJUgT=rqqR1ypv9_91ao-A2bVeksDSkuzUB3+np4pL5GUSA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D67E285F-E482-4284-B0B4-0E975823A249@hxcore.ol>

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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sat Mar 12 16:04:21 2022
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 09:04:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Apple Pi
In-Reply-To: <CA+BCJUgT=rqqR1ypv9_91ao-A2bVeksDSkuzUB3+np4pL5GUSA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFjPUmvHM-QFJFW7tR_Tns-cDvhpgdjsuJsUeXW5ZetGDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUgT=rqqR1ypv9_91ao-A2bVeksDSkuzUB3+np4pL5GUSA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFiAqZe0c6hTT=j=B+=3QAwj_UwtuNCirS_hGQZ1p200Gw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 12, 2022 at 6:25 AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> I write about this here:
> https://alwaysasking.com/why-does-anything-exist/#Why_Quantum_Mechanics
>
> ### Awesome!

-- 
Rafal Smigrodzki, MD-PhD
Schuyler Biotech PLLC
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From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Sat Mar 12 18:29:24 2022
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 11:29:24 -0700
Subject: [ExI] bitcoin again
In-Reply-To: <000f01d8356b$f9412ac0$ebc38040$@rainier66.com>
References: <000f01d8356b$f9412ac0$ebc38040$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onsQo==D+sciY=-qQ7WZKu+as_qzAU8M7F-=aFp5p4WS3Q@mail.gmail.com>

Yea, The question is, where is the price going to be in 10, 20, and more
years?
Will Ether ever surpass bitcoin?  What kind of systems will arise from all
this, changing our lives?
What about all the other crypto currencies?



On Fri, Mar 11, 2022 at 10:19 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> About 20 yrs ago, we concluded that the critical factor in the value of a
> currency is not what is behind the currency, but rather how the supply of
> the currency is controlled.  It can be gold backed, silver backed,
> government promise backed, it doesn't matter, only that it isn't created
> arbitrarily.
>
>
>
> The US government came to the same conclusion simultaneously, so it
> borrowed and spent the value behind its own currency, while Hal's group
> (BitCoin) invented a way to control supply of a currency based on compute
> time, secured by block chain.  They created a currency representing no
> actual value, representing no precious metals or anything else, no
> government promises behind it, acknowledging this right up front.  Its only
> real asset as a currency is that the supply is controlled in such a way
> that it is impossible to counterfeit or print in arbitrary quantities,
> unlike all fiat currencies.
>
>
>
> This is what happened:
>
>
>
>
> https://www.google.com/finance/quote/BTC-USD?sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj3pqyYx772AhUZITQIHQRrDc8Q-fUHegQIGxAS&window=5Y
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Mar 12 19:16:03 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 11:16:03 -0800
Subject: [ExI] bitcoin again
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onsQo==D+sciY=-qQ7WZKu+as_qzAU8M7F-=aFp5p4WS3Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000f01d8356b$f9412ac0$ebc38040$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onsQo==D+sciY=-qQ7WZKu+as_qzAU8M7F-=aFp5p4WS3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001601d83645$9e55b510$db011f30$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of Brent Allsop via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] bitcoin again

 

 

Yea, The question is, where is the price going to be in 10, 20, and more years?

Will Ether ever surpass bitcoin?

 

 

How would that be measured?  Number of coins times the value of each?  That is the crypto currency equivalent of market capitalization one might suppose.

 

 

>?What kind of systems will arise from all this, changing our lives?

 

Good question.  The way I look at it is that cryptocurrency has created an environment which reminds governments they cannot do what the US government and others have been doing: run huge deficits, rack up staggering debt then just inflate it away.  When they do that, the cryptos become stronger and stronger and stronger.

 

>?What about all the other crypto currencies?

 

Not just cryptocurrencies, but other forms of value as well.  Consider art for instance.  We have a new guy who is smashing all previous records for the value of a new artist and the value of art created by a living painter where it is not entirely clear the supply is limited.  Yet still record after record falls as staggering sums are paid for the art.  Apparently he is really really good, a marvel never seen before.

 

spike

 

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From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Sat Mar 12 19:33:49 2022
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 12:33:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] bitcoin again
In-Reply-To: <001601d83645$9e55b510$db011f30$@rainier66.com>
References: <000f01d8356b$f9412ac0$ebc38040$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onsQo==D+sciY=-qQ7WZKu+as_qzAU8M7F-=aFp5p4WS3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <001601d83645$9e55b510$db011f30$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onvnC_gKZKdZXAjisGDM1pbMxiA8Ht62FqjvSz3R9r-rSw@mail.gmail.com>

Yea, market cap.
Will it move above bitcoin on the coinmarketcap.com list.
This is referred to as the flipping, in the Ether community.

And I still have the general question, how high will all this go, in the
real long term?
I mean think of what we would have all thought, if someone said, 20 years
ago, that 1 bitcoin would be worth more than $50K
What will things be like in 10 and 20 years from now?

And probably the more significant and surprising answer will be to the
question of how will AI change things in 10 and 20 years from now?






On Sat, Mar 12, 2022 at 12:16 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *?*> *On Behalf Of *Brent Allsop via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] bitcoin again
>
>
>
>
>
> Yea, The question is, where is the price going to be in 10, 20, and more
> years?
>
> Will Ether ever surpass bitcoin?
>
>
>
>
>
> How would that be measured?  Number of coins times the value of each?
> That is the crypto currency equivalent of market capitalization one might
> suppose.
>
>
>
>
>
> >?What kind of systems will arise from all this, changing our lives?
>
>
>
> Good question.  The way I look at it is that cryptocurrency has created an
> environment which reminds governments they cannot do what the US government
> and others have been doing: run huge deficits, rack up staggering debt then
> just inflate it away.  When they do that, the cryptos become stronger and
> stronger and stronger.
>
>
>
> >?What about all the other crypto currencies?
>
>
>
> Not just cryptocurrencies, but other forms of value as well.  Consider art
> for instance.  We have a new guy who is smashing all previous records for
> the value of a new artist and the value of art created by a living painter
> where it is not entirely clear the supply is limited.  Yet still record
> after record falls as staggering sums are paid for the art.  Apparently he
> is really really good, a marvel never seen before.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Mar 14 19:56:59 2022
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 19:56:59 +0000
Subject: [ExI] 11 numbers that are cooler than pi
Message-ID: <CAL_armgu24QGeJoKWhqcW0d7_dAY_ZWu=o1h8iQmxYNuA0y8_g@mail.gmail.com>

Pi may be one of the best-known numbers, but for people who are paid
to think about numbers all day long, the circle constant can be a bit
of a bore. We asked several mathematicians to tell us their favorite
non-pi numbers. Here are some of their answers.

<https://www.livescience.com/64987-numbers-as-cool-as-pi.html>
---------------


Just something for the maths nerds!   :)

BillK

From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Mar 15 15:44:06 2022
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 15:44:06 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Free Zoom Futurist Conference April 23-34, 2022
Message-ID: <CAL_armgRs0hThyPGWYMExwaPg0JKWSm3uwYFjKQ5kx91qwtcrg@mail.gmail.com>

'Stepping Into the Future' conference - April 23-24 2022
by /u/adam_ford

The 'Stepping Into the Future' conference is coming up soon - April
23-24th to be exact. It's online and it's free (via zoom). It will be
fun & exciting - I hope you can all make it. Many of the abstracts of
the talks are already online (linked to from the agenda) - so check
them out.

"We are in the midst of a technological avalanche ? surprisingly to
many, AI has made the impossible possible. In a rapidly changing world
maintaining and expanding our capacity to innovate is essential."

What: A conference about important developments in technology today
and in the future
When: April 23rd-24th, 2022
Where: Online via Zoom
Price: Free

There are 4 main categories:
The Future Human & the Posthuman,
Paradise Engineering/Qualia Quality Control,
Long-term Futures
Artificial Intelligence / Machine Understanding.

Speakers/panelists include:

Anders Sandberg (Future of Humanity Institute)
Andres E. Gomez (Qualia Research Institute)
Ben Goertzel (OpenCog, SingularityNET)
David Pearce (The Hedonistic Imperative)
James Hughes (Institute for Ethics & Emerging Technology)
John Smart (Acceleration Watch)
Joscha Bach (Intel Labs)
Mike Johnson (Qualia Research Institute)
PJ Manney (Institute for Ethics & Emerging Technology)
Pramod K. Nayar (University of Hyderabad)
Stuart Armstrong (Future of Humanity Institute)

Conference link: <https://www.scifuture.org/events/stepping-into-the-future/>
submitted by /u/adam_ford
--------------

Most of the speakers will be familiar to Exi-chat members.
BillK


From dsunley at gmail.com  Tue Mar 15 15:54:13 2022
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 09:54:13 -0600
Subject: [ExI] 11 numbers that are cooler than pi
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgu24QGeJoKWhqcW0d7_dAY_ZWu=o1h8iQmxYNuA0y8_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgu24QGeJoKWhqcW0d7_dAY_ZWu=o1h8iQmxYNuA0y8_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEptUkQ1t0M6jiXL_Ftx89r3hbJhp4Qn3QgNsfbHWXoAqmUhXg@mail.gmail.com>

They left out my favorite: Chaitin's "Omega".

It encodes which Turing machines halt.

I think that might be sufficient to define the computational nature of the
mathematical universe.

On Mon, Mar 14, 2022 at 1:59 PM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Pi may be one of the best-known numbers, but for people who are paid
> to think about numbers all day long, the circle constant can be a bit
> of a bore. We asked several mathematicians to tell us their favorite
> non-pi numbers. Here are some of their answers.
>
> <https://www.livescience.com/64987-numbers-as-cool-as-pi.html>
> ---------------
>
>
> Just something for the maths nerds!   :)
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Mar 15 16:09:54 2022
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 16:09:54 +0000
Subject: [ExI] 11 numbers that are cooler than pi
In-Reply-To: <CAEptUkQ1t0M6jiXL_Ftx89r3hbJhp4Qn3QgNsfbHWXoAqmUhXg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgu24QGeJoKWhqcW0d7_dAY_ZWu=o1h8iQmxYNuA0y8_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkQ1t0M6jiXL_Ftx89r3hbJhp4Qn3QgNsfbHWXoAqmUhXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armisYq83mFbJiKb_mgMKcQ=2yDPbLqj9gL_iJfHarVrzeg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 at 15:56, Darin Sunley via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> They left out my favorite: Chaitin's "Omega".
> It encodes which Turing machines halt.
> I think that might be sufficient to define the computational nature of the mathematical universe.
>

Hey!  You need to include an explanation for us poor benighted mortals
that have never heard of this. :)

<https://mathworld.wolfram.com/ChaitinsConstant.html>
Quote:
A Chaitin's constant, also called a Chaitin omega number, introduced
by Chaitin (1975), is the halting probability of a universal
prefix-free (self-delimiting) Turing machine. Every Chaitin constant
is simultaneously computably enumerable (the limit of a computable,
increasing, converging sequence of rationals), and algorithmically
random (its binary expansion is an algorithmic random sequence), hence
uncomputable (Chaitin 1975).


BillK

From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Mar 16 22:07:11 2022
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 22:07:11 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Webb Telescope setup going great!
Message-ID: <CAL_armjCyz0A0QhZKqnPusR=R70ibOivBDrWuCyThzy5Aq7hFA@mail.gmail.com>

The James Webb Space Telescope's main mirror is fully aligned and
performing even better than it had been designed to do, NASA officials
revealed in a news conference held virtually on Wednesday (March 16).

<https://www.space.com/james-webb-space-telescope-better-than-expected-image>

Quote:
The image released on Wednesday shows a bright-shining amber-colored
star emanating streams of light across the universe. Even more
interesting than the star itself, however, is its background,
revealing dozens of specks and dots ? each a distant galaxy that was
previously out of reach.

These distant galaxies make Webb's first image a so-called deep field.
Such photographs, focusing on small sections of the sky, aim to
capture the most distant objects in the universe. Deep fields are a
specialty of the Hubble Space Telescope, Webb's predecessor. Webb,
however, is set to beat Hubble in its ability to peer into the depths.

"There's no way that Webb can look for 2,000 seconds at any point in
the sky, and not get an incredibly deep field," Rigby said. "This is
going to be the future from now on. Wherever we look, it's a deep
field. Without even really breaking a sweat, we're seeing back in time
to galaxies that we're seeing the light as it looked billions of years
ago."
-----------

First scientific images are expected to be released in June or July.
NASA is keeping the celestial object that will become the first target
of Webb's scientific exploration secret until then.
-------------

This telescope should be magnificent for astronomy - 100 times more
sensitive than Hubble - unbelievable!

BillK


From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Thu Mar 17 11:46:25 2022
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 05:46:25 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Webb Telescope setup going great!
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjCyz0A0QhZKqnPusR=R70ibOivBDrWuCyThzy5Aq7hFA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjCyz0A0QhZKqnPusR=R70ibOivBDrWuCyThzy5Aq7hFA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-ont7uEf5OYVG+NKRv0urwDnsoi9n_jZ8_mCy=TF=oM_EuQ@mail.gmail.com>

What about the star crosses on the image?
Isn't that all noise, from the optics and such?
Shouldn't it just be the star, and no cross light like that, to be a good
image, without any noise?
seems really bad to me, but then I'm clueless about such things.


On Wed, Mar 16, 2022 at 4:08 PM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> The James Webb Space Telescope's main mirror is fully aligned and
> performing even better than it had been designed to do, NASA officials
> revealed in a news conference held virtually on Wednesday (March 16).
>
> <
> https://www.space.com/james-webb-space-telescope-better-than-expected-image
> >
>
> Quote:
> The image released on Wednesday shows a bright-shining amber-colored
> star emanating streams of light across the universe. Even more
> interesting than the star itself, however, is its background,
> revealing dozens of specks and dots ? each a distant galaxy that was
> previously out of reach.
>
> These distant galaxies make Webb's first image a so-called deep field.
> Such photographs, focusing on small sections of the sky, aim to
> capture the most distant objects in the universe. Deep fields are a
> specialty of the Hubble Space Telescope, Webb's predecessor. Webb,
> however, is set to beat Hubble in its ability to peer into the depths.
>
> "There's no way that Webb can look for 2,000 seconds at any point in
> the sky, and not get an incredibly deep field," Rigby said. "This is
> going to be the future from now on. Wherever we look, it's a deep
> field. Without even really breaking a sweat, we're seeing back in time
> to galaxies that we're seeing the light as it looked billions of years
> ago."
> -----------
>
> First scientific images are expected to be released in June or July.
> NASA is keeping the celestial object that will become the first target
> of Webb's scientific exploration secret until then.
> -------------
>
> This telescope should be magnificent for astronomy - 100 times more
> sensitive than Hubble - unbelievable!
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Mar 17 12:29:22 2022
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 12:29:22 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Webb Telescope setup going great!
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-ont7uEf5OYVG+NKRv0urwDnsoi9n_jZ8_mCy=TF=oM_EuQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjCyz0A0QhZKqnPusR=R70ibOivBDrWuCyThzy5Aq7hFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-ont7uEf5OYVG+NKRv0urwDnsoi9n_jZ8_mCy=TF=oM_EuQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgeBxgpobx9=6BvRHT=8mbdRANE7D6pna9xPRPMgFikWw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 17 Mar 2022 at 11:49, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> What about the star crosses on the image?
> Isn't that all noise, from the optics and such?
> Shouldn't it just be the star, and no cross light like that, to be a good image, without any noise?
> seems really bad to me, but then I'm clueless about such things.
>

These are called diffraction spikes. They happen when a telescope
looks at a bright light.
Wikipedia explains -
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffraction_spike>

The Webb is only looking at the very faint star (beyond human
eyesight) for calibration purposes.


BillK

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Mar 17 15:38:06 2022
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 10:38:06 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZW3zeREAFANutJTNRdxRvLmPNBvVwM2xC3ADkUyngBdw@mail.gmail.com>

https://neurosciencenews.com/psychedelics-conscious-awareness-20203/

Which ones am I missing out on?

bill w
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Thu Mar 17 16:15:02 2022
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 12:15:02 -0400
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZW3zeREAFANutJTNRdxRvLmPNBvVwM2xC3ADkUyngBdw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZW3zeREAFANutJTNRdxRvLmPNBvVwM2xC3ADkUyngBdw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyHosTDMqH-8ehHobBbbt-_PZZwQZTxtVPkt4DB=-=X4wg@mail.gmail.com>

numerous substituted indoles/tryptamines and substituted phenethylamines.
4-AcO-DMT or 2C-B for example

On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 11:39 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> https://neurosciencenews.com/psychedelics-conscious-awareness-20203/
>
> Which ones am I missing out on?
>
> bill w
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Mar 17 17:04:41 2022
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 12:04:41 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyHosTDMqH-8ehHobBbbt-_PZZwQZTxtVPkt4DB=-=X4wg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZW3zeREAFANutJTNRdxRvLmPNBvVwM2xC3ADkUyngBdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyHosTDMqH-8ehHobBbbt-_PZZwQZTxtVPkt4DB=-=X4wg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEavWqANRD7xOyqsnc-_jXHgqG+=o4NsBr7wmRHAr4VSMw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 11:17 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> numerous substituted indoles/tryptamines and substituted phenethylamines.
> 4-AcO-DMT or 2C-B for example
>

Thanks!  I'll check my local pharmacy!  I assume these and most others are
synthetic, not naturally derived from plants, mushrooms, etc.  Otherwise,
where can I get the seeds?  bill w

>
> On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 11:39 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> https://neurosciencenews.com/psychedelics-conscious-awareness-20203/
>>
>> Which ones am I missing out on?
>>
>> bill w
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Thu Mar 17 19:18:25 2022
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 15:18:25 -0400
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEavWqANRD7xOyqsnc-_jXHgqG+=o4NsBr7wmRHAr4VSMw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZW3zeREAFANutJTNRdxRvLmPNBvVwM2xC3ADkUyngBdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyHosTDMqH-8ehHobBbbt-_PZZwQZTxtVPkt4DB=-=X4wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEavWqANRD7xOyqsnc-_jXHgqG+=o4NsBr7wmRHAr4VSMw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyE4w+UDxtSk2cFyf+9ftf1T+2n-WSdj5J_boroN+n_HRA@mail.gmail.com>

In general they would be mostly synthetic or semisynthetic (ergotamine
precursor, could use dmt or ephedrine from plants as a precursor, etc) but
there are reports of adding psychedelics to the growth substrate of
psilocybe mushrooms which may cause them to hydroxylate the 4th position on
the indole ring of whatever chem was added.  So in theory adding DiPT to
the mushroom substrate can produce some 4-HO-DiPT in addition to the
already present 4-HO-DMT (psilocin, which becomes O-phosphoryl-psilocin
(psilocybin) in the plant so maybe the resultant chem would be
O-phosphoryl-4-HO-DiPT?) .

As for the theoretical home researcher, a little bird with huge pupils told
me it is exceedingly easy and 100% legal to order Psychotria viridis leaf
and Banisteriopsis caapi vine from European clearnet sources, and then it
would technically be illegal, but very hard to find or prove given use in a
closed environment like, say, your house, to brew these into ayahuasca,
which could technically be dosed with various ratios of the leaf (DMT) and
vine (MAOI) as well as admixture plants, or other DMT/MAOI containing
plants like mimosa hostilis/acacia confusa for DMT or syrian rue for
harmala alkaloid MAOI, to produce anywhere from a microdose experience to a
mild shroom-type experience to a full-blown 12-hour shit-your-pants vision
quest experience.   But that's just what the bird told me.  He also said
something about psychedelic and dissociative analog chemicals also being
readily available on the clearnet, including ones that are just straight-up
prodrugs for LSD and the like, and are bizarrely completely legal, but he
was frying pretty hard at that point and was saying some shit about dark
matter being consciousness or something.  Idk

On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 1:06 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 11:17 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> numerous substituted indoles/tryptamines and substituted phenethylamines.
>> 4-AcO-DMT or 2C-B for example
>>
>
> Thanks!  I'll check my local pharmacy!  I assume these and most others are
> synthetic, not naturally derived from plants, mushrooms, etc.  Otherwise,
> where can I get the seeds?  bill w
>
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 11:39 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> https://neurosciencenews.com/psychedelics-conscious-awareness-20203/
>>>
>>> Which ones am I missing out on?
>>>
>>> bill w
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Thu Mar 17 19:24:33 2022
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 15:24:33 -0400
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyE4w+UDxtSk2cFyf+9ftf1T+2n-WSdj5J_boroN+n_HRA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZW3zeREAFANutJTNRdxRvLmPNBvVwM2xC3ADkUyngBdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyHosTDMqH-8ehHobBbbt-_PZZwQZTxtVPkt4DB=-=X4wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEavWqANRD7xOyqsnc-_jXHgqG+=o4NsBr7wmRHAr4VSMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyE4w+UDxtSk2cFyf+9ftf1T+2n-WSdj5J_boroN+n_HRA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyGXs+17_NJ=2DuRtP5R-MoHOZ=RCj=AyG8BrwFQ8upT5w@mail.gmail.com>

Also perhaps research growing Echinopsis pachanoi/Lophophora williamsii,
and also a little monkey told me is is very, very easy to use Uncle Ben's
microwaveable rice packets to grow many kinds of mushrooms, from the bold
porcini, to the subtle chanterelle, to the freaky-deaky Psilocybe cubensis,
which apparently has spores you can order online completely legally, for
looking at with your microscope of course, and it would of course be
illegal to use those rice packets as starter substrates for said groovy
mushrooms.  And apparently there is a community here dedicated to growing
all the aforementioned legal edible/medicinal mushrooms here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/unclebens/ and totally not the kind that will make
you realize you and I and the universe are all one conscious being (but
also infinite beings).  These little animals are saying some crazy stuff!

On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 3:18 PM Will Steinberg <steinberg.will at gmail.com>
wrote:

> In general they would be mostly synthetic or semisynthetic (ergotamine
> precursor, could use dmt or ephedrine from plants as a precursor, etc) but
> there are reports of adding psychedelics to the growth substrate of
> psilocybe mushrooms which may cause them to hydroxylate the 4th position on
> the indole ring of whatever chem was added.  So in theory adding DiPT to
> the mushroom substrate can produce some 4-HO-DiPT in addition to the
> already present 4-HO-DMT (psilocin, which becomes O-phosphoryl-psilocin
> (psilocybin) in the plant so maybe the resultant chem would be
> O-phosphoryl-4-HO-DiPT?) .
>
> As for the theoretical home researcher, a little bird with huge pupils
> told me it is exceedingly easy and 100% legal to order Psychotria viridis
> leaf and Banisteriopsis caapi vine from European clearnet sources, and then
> it would technically be illegal, but very hard to find or prove given use
> in a closed environment like, say, your house, to brew these into
> ayahuasca, which could technically be dosed with various ratios of the leaf
> (DMT) and vine (MAOI) as well as admixture plants, or other DMT/MAOI
> containing plants like mimosa hostilis/acacia confusa for DMT or syrian rue
> for harmala alkaloid MAOI, to produce anywhere from a microdose experience
> to a mild shroom-type experience to a full-blown 12-hour shit-your-pants
> vision quest experience.   But that's just what the bird told me.  He also
> said something about psychedelic and dissociative analog chemicals also
> being readily available on the clearnet, including ones that are just
> straight-up prodrugs for LSD and the like, and are bizarrely completely
> legal, but he was frying pretty hard at that point and was saying some shit
> about dark matter being consciousness or something.  Idk
>
> On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 1:06 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 11:17 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> numerous substituted indoles/tryptamines and substituted
>>> phenethylamines. 4-AcO-DMT or 2C-B for example
>>>
>>
>> Thanks!  I'll check my local pharmacy!  I assume these and most others
>> are synthetic, not naturally derived from plants, mushrooms, etc.
>> Otherwise, where can I get the seeds?  bill w
>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 11:39 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> https://neurosciencenews.com/psychedelics-conscious-awareness-20203/
>>>>
>>>> Which ones am I missing out on?
>>>>
>>>> bill w
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Mar 17 21:30:53 2022
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 16:30:53 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyGXs+17_NJ=2DuRtP5R-MoHOZ=RCj=AyG8BrwFQ8upT5w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZW3zeREAFANutJTNRdxRvLmPNBvVwM2xC3ADkUyngBdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyHosTDMqH-8ehHobBbbt-_PZZwQZTxtVPkt4DB=-=X4wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEavWqANRD7xOyqsnc-_jXHgqG+=o4NsBr7wmRHAr4VSMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyE4w+UDxtSk2cFyf+9ftf1T+2n-WSdj5J_boroN+n_HRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyGXs+17_NJ=2DuRtP5R-MoHOZ=RCj=AyG8BrwFQ8upT5w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaZjFHwYkK0ViyX2P29QoKck9DQGkbdqpZ6+XyLEDf42Q@mail.gmail.com>

What is exciting to me is that they are on their way to more easily
manipulate emotions and other brain states.  Think what they would mean for
mental health.  The antidepressants and tranquilizers we have now are very
crude.  bill w

On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 2:26 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Also perhaps research growing Echinopsis pachanoi/Lophophora williamsii,
> and also a little monkey told me is is very, very easy to use Uncle Ben's
> microwaveable rice packets to grow many kinds of mushrooms, from the bold
> porcini, to the subtle chanterelle, to the freaky-deaky Psilocybe cubensis,
> which apparently has spores you can order online completely legally, for
> looking at with your microscope of course, and it would of course be
> illegal to use those rice packets as starter substrates for said groovy
> mushrooms.  And apparently there is a community here dedicated to growing
> all the aforementioned legal edible/medicinal mushrooms here:
> https://www.reddit.com/r/unclebens/ and totally not the kind that will
> make you realize you and I and the universe are all one conscious being
> (but also infinite beings).  These little animals are saying some crazy
> stuff!
>
> On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 3:18 PM Will Steinberg <steinberg.will at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> In general they would be mostly synthetic or semisynthetic (ergotamine
>> precursor, could use dmt or ephedrine from plants as a precursor, etc) but
>> there are reports of adding psychedelics to the growth substrate of
>> psilocybe mushrooms which may cause them to hydroxylate the 4th position on
>> the indole ring of whatever chem was added.  So in theory adding DiPT to
>> the mushroom substrate can produce some 4-HO-DiPT in addition to the
>> already present 4-HO-DMT (psilocin, which becomes O-phosphoryl-psilocin
>> (psilocybin) in the plant so maybe the resultant chem would be
>> O-phosphoryl-4-HO-DiPT?) .
>>
>> As for the theoretical home researcher, a little bird with huge pupils
>> told me it is exceedingly easy and 100% legal to order Psychotria viridis
>> leaf and Banisteriopsis caapi vine from European clearnet sources, and then
>> it would technically be illegal, but very hard to find or prove given use
>> in a closed environment like, say, your house, to brew these into
>> ayahuasca, which could technically be dosed with various ratios of the leaf
>> (DMT) and vine (MAOI) as well as admixture plants, or other DMT/MAOI
>> containing plants like mimosa hostilis/acacia confusa for DMT or syrian rue
>> for harmala alkaloid MAOI, to produce anywhere from a microdose experience
>> to a mild shroom-type experience to a full-blown 12-hour shit-your-pants
>> vision quest experience.   But that's just what the bird told me.  He also
>> said something about psychedelic and dissociative analog chemicals also
>> being readily available on the clearnet, including ones that are just
>> straight-up prodrugs for LSD and the like, and are bizarrely completely
>> legal, but he was frying pretty hard at that point and was saying some shit
>> about dark matter being consciousness or something.  Idk
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 1:06 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 11:17 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> numerous substituted indoles/tryptamines and substituted
>>>> phenethylamines. 4-AcO-DMT or 2C-B for example
>>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks!  I'll check my local pharmacy!  I assume these and most others
>>> are synthetic, not naturally derived from plants, mushrooms, etc.
>>> Otherwise, where can I get the seeds?  bill w
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 11:39 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>>>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> https://neurosciencenews.com/psychedelics-conscious-awareness-20203/
>>>>>
>>>>> Which ones am I missing out on?
>>>>>
>>>>> bill w
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Fri Mar 18 04:56:49 2022
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 00:56:49 -0400
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaZjFHwYkK0ViyX2P29QoKck9DQGkbdqpZ6+XyLEDf42Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZW3zeREAFANutJTNRdxRvLmPNBvVwM2xC3ADkUyngBdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyHosTDMqH-8ehHobBbbt-_PZZwQZTxtVPkt4DB=-=X4wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEavWqANRD7xOyqsnc-_jXHgqG+=o4NsBr7wmRHAr4VSMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyE4w+UDxtSk2cFyf+9ftf1T+2n-WSdj5J_boroN+n_HRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyGXs+17_NJ=2DuRtP5R-MoHOZ=RCj=AyG8BrwFQ8upT5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaZjFHwYkK0ViyX2P29QoKck9DQGkbdqpZ6+XyLEDf42Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyFfGbK_sZR3vArM9osDvk60_KKg26PpDry37JoM5+q=yg@mail.gmail.com>

Honestly it's an uphill battle in the current medical/psychotherapeutic
milieu.  A psychedelic trip is just about the furthest you can get from the
western medicine vibe.  A fluorescently lit clinic is not a good place to
trip.  Nor is some futuristic minimalistic clinic like I've seen ads for,
in my opinion.  They need like, old houses with dim incandescent lights,
hardwood floors, incense, persian rugs, lots of throw pillows, a big grassy
yard with a pond and a flower garden, etc.  With lots of different rooms
and potential activities, spaces to change things up to calm or stimulate
the mind depending on what is needed.  And the therapists need to be
experienced in taking psychedelics themselves, there is no other way.  Just
being on a psychedelic can give you more insight into the human mind than
an entire doctorate degree.

On Thu, Mar 17, 2022, 5:32 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> What is exciting to me is that they are on their way to more easily
> manipulate emotions and other brain states.  Think what they would mean for
> mental health.  The antidepressants and tranquilizers we have now are very
> crude.  bill w
>
> On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 2:26 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Also perhaps research growing Echinopsis pachanoi/Lophophora williamsii,
>> and also a little monkey told me is is very, very easy to use Uncle Ben's
>> microwaveable rice packets to grow many kinds of mushrooms, from the bold
>> porcini, to the subtle chanterelle, to the freaky-deaky Psilocybe cubensis,
>> which apparently has spores you can order online completely legally, for
>> looking at with your microscope of course, and it would of course be
>> illegal to use those rice packets as starter substrates for said groovy
>> mushrooms.  And apparently there is a community here dedicated to growing
>> all the aforementioned legal edible/medicinal mushrooms here:
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/unclebens/ and totally not the kind that will
>> make you realize you and I and the universe are all one conscious being
>> (but also infinite beings).  These little animals are saying some crazy
>> stuff!
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 3:18 PM Will Steinberg <steinberg.will at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In general they would be mostly synthetic or semisynthetic (ergotamine
>>> precursor, could use dmt or ephedrine from plants as a precursor, etc) but
>>> there are reports of adding psychedelics to the growth substrate of
>>> psilocybe mushrooms which may cause them to hydroxylate the 4th position on
>>> the indole ring of whatever chem was added.  So in theory adding DiPT to
>>> the mushroom substrate can produce some 4-HO-DiPT in addition to the
>>> already present 4-HO-DMT (psilocin, which becomes O-phosphoryl-psilocin
>>> (psilocybin) in the plant so maybe the resultant chem would be
>>> O-phosphoryl-4-HO-DiPT?) .
>>>
>>> As for the theoretical home researcher, a little bird with huge pupils
>>> told me it is exceedingly easy and 100% legal to order Psychotria viridis
>>> leaf and Banisteriopsis caapi vine from European clearnet sources, and then
>>> it would technically be illegal, but very hard to find or prove given use
>>> in a closed environment like, say, your house, to brew these into
>>> ayahuasca, which could technically be dosed with various ratios of the leaf
>>> (DMT) and vine (MAOI) as well as admixture plants, or other DMT/MAOI
>>> containing plants like mimosa hostilis/acacia confusa for DMT or syrian rue
>>> for harmala alkaloid MAOI, to produce anywhere from a microdose experience
>>> to a mild shroom-type experience to a full-blown 12-hour shit-your-pants
>>> vision quest experience.   But that's just what the bird told me.  He also
>>> said something about psychedelic and dissociative analog chemicals also
>>> being readily available on the clearnet, including ones that are just
>>> straight-up prodrugs for LSD and the like, and are bizarrely completely
>>> legal, but he was frying pretty hard at that point and was saying some shit
>>> about dark matter being consciousness or something.  Idk
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 1:06 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 11:17 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> numerous substituted indoles/tryptamines and substituted
>>>>> phenethylamines. 4-AcO-DMT or 2C-B for example
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks!  I'll check my local pharmacy!  I assume these and most others
>>>> are synthetic, not naturally derived from plants, mushrooms, etc.
>>>> Otherwise, where can I get the seeds?  bill w
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 11:39 AM William Flynn Wallace via
>>>>> extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> https://neurosciencenews.com/psychedelics-conscious-awareness-20203/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Which ones am I missing out on?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> bill w
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 18 16:25:36 2022
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 11:25:36 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyFfGbK_sZR3vArM9osDvk60_KKg26PpDry37JoM5+q=yg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZW3zeREAFANutJTNRdxRvLmPNBvVwM2xC3ADkUyngBdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyHosTDMqH-8ehHobBbbt-_PZZwQZTxtVPkt4DB=-=X4wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEavWqANRD7xOyqsnc-_jXHgqG+=o4NsBr7wmRHAr4VSMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyE4w+UDxtSk2cFyf+9ftf1T+2n-WSdj5J_boroN+n_HRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyGXs+17_NJ=2DuRtP5R-MoHOZ=RCj=AyG8BrwFQ8upT5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaZjFHwYkK0ViyX2P29QoKck9DQGkbdqpZ6+XyLEDf42Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyFfGbK_sZR3vArM9osDvk60_KKg26PpDry37JoM5+q=yg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZi+zoT5BmH40vuDspquBGmehL144mVP15dWc1Cx0UmBg@mail.gmail.com>

What a lovely place you describe.  I don't know why they can't put some
pictures and plants in offices and hospital rooms.  The more it feels like
home the better the patients will feel.

But your last sentence is highly suspicious.  Great insights into oneself
or our culture etc. are said to be obtained in a trip.  When one gets back
to normal, some of those 'insights' look rather quotidian.  "Why did I ever
think that that was profound?"  , perhaps referring to something written
down while stoned - common.

So why don't the trippers write the psych books?  No hard data, I suspect.
 bill w

On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 11:59 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Honestly it's an uphill battle in the current medical/psychotherapeutic
> milieu.  A psychedelic trip is just about the furthest you can get from the
> western medicine vibe.  A fluorescently lit clinic is not a good place to
> trip.  Nor is some futuristic minimalistic clinic like I've seen ads for,
> in my opinion.  They need like, old houses with dim incandescent lights,
> hardwood floors, incense, persian rugs, lots of throw pillows, a big grassy
> yard with a pond and a flower garden, etc.  With lots of different rooms
> and potential activities, spaces to change things up to calm or stimulate
> the mind depending on what is needed.  And the therapists need to be
> experienced in taking psychedelics themselves, there is no other way.  Just
> being on a psychedelic can give you more insight into the human mind than
> an entire doctorate degree.
>
> On Thu, Mar 17, 2022, 5:32 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> What is exciting to me is that they are on their way to more easily
>> manipulate emotions and other brain states.  Think what they would mean for
>> mental health.  The antidepressants and tranquilizers we have now are very
>> crude.  bill w
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 2:26 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Also perhaps research growing Echinopsis pachanoi/Lophophora williamsii,
>>> and also a little monkey told me is is very, very easy to use Uncle Ben's
>>> microwaveable rice packets to grow many kinds of mushrooms, from the bold
>>> porcini, to the subtle chanterelle, to the freaky-deaky Psilocybe cubensis,
>>> which apparently has spores you can order online completely legally, for
>>> looking at with your microscope of course, and it would of course be
>>> illegal to use those rice packets as starter substrates for said groovy
>>> mushrooms.  And apparently there is a community here dedicated to growing
>>> all the aforementioned legal edible/medicinal mushrooms here:
>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/unclebens/ and totally not the kind that will
>>> make you realize you and I and the universe are all one conscious being
>>> (but also infinite beings).  These little animals are saying some crazy
>>> stuff!
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 3:18 PM Will Steinberg <steinberg.will at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In general they would be mostly synthetic or semisynthetic (ergotamine
>>>> precursor, could use dmt or ephedrine from plants as a precursor, etc) but
>>>> there are reports of adding psychedelics to the growth substrate of
>>>> psilocybe mushrooms which may cause them to hydroxylate the 4th position on
>>>> the indole ring of whatever chem was added.  So in theory adding DiPT to
>>>> the mushroom substrate can produce some 4-HO-DiPT in addition to the
>>>> already present 4-HO-DMT (psilocin, which becomes O-phosphoryl-psilocin
>>>> (psilocybin) in the plant so maybe the resultant chem would be
>>>> O-phosphoryl-4-HO-DiPT?) .
>>>>
>>>> As for the theoretical home researcher, a little bird with huge pupils
>>>> told me it is exceedingly easy and 100% legal to order Psychotria viridis
>>>> leaf and Banisteriopsis caapi vine from European clearnet sources, and then
>>>> it would technically be illegal, but very hard to find or prove given use
>>>> in a closed environment like, say, your house, to brew these into
>>>> ayahuasca, which could technically be dosed with various ratios of the leaf
>>>> (DMT) and vine (MAOI) as well as admixture plants, or other DMT/MAOI
>>>> containing plants like mimosa hostilis/acacia confusa for DMT or syrian rue
>>>> for harmala alkaloid MAOI, to produce anywhere from a microdose experience
>>>> to a mild shroom-type experience to a full-blown 12-hour shit-your-pants
>>>> vision quest experience.   But that's just what the bird told me.  He also
>>>> said something about psychedelic and dissociative analog chemicals also
>>>> being readily available on the clearnet, including ones that are just
>>>> straight-up prodrugs for LSD and the like, and are bizarrely completely
>>>> legal, but he was frying pretty hard at that point and was saying some shit
>>>> about dark matter being consciousness or something.  Idk
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 1:06 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 11:17 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> numerous substituted indoles/tryptamines and substituted
>>>>>> phenethylamines. 4-AcO-DMT or 2C-B for example
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks!  I'll check my local pharmacy!  I assume these and most others
>>>>> are synthetic, not naturally derived from plants, mushrooms, etc.
>>>>> Otherwise, where can I get the seeds?  bill w
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 11:39 AM William Flynn Wallace via
>>>>>> extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://neurosciencenews.com/psychedelics-conscious-awareness-20203/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which ones am I missing out on?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> bill w
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Fri Mar 18 16:58:19 2022
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 12:58:19 -0400
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZi+zoT5BmH40vuDspquBGmehL144mVP15dWc1Cx0UmBg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZW3zeREAFANutJTNRdxRvLmPNBvVwM2xC3ADkUyngBdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyHosTDMqH-8ehHobBbbt-_PZZwQZTxtVPkt4DB=-=X4wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEavWqANRD7xOyqsnc-_jXHgqG+=o4NsBr7wmRHAr4VSMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyE4w+UDxtSk2cFyf+9ftf1T+2n-WSdj5J_boroN+n_HRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyGXs+17_NJ=2DuRtP5R-MoHOZ=RCj=AyG8BrwFQ8upT5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaZjFHwYkK0ViyX2P29QoKck9DQGkbdqpZ6+XyLEDf42Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyFfGbK_sZR3vArM9osDvk60_KKg26PpDry37JoM5+q=yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZi+zoT5BmH40vuDspquBGmehL144mVP15dWc1Cx0UmBg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyEW6CWDFN42qawt0kjTci3MBMSw1810znmpFVvL1A_ERA@mail.gmail.com>

The ultimate truths of the mind can't really be written down or expressed,
and if you tried to make them conform to current logic systems they would
appear to be self-contradictory.  However, you can still vaguely remember
the insights and use them as a guide in your life, and when guiding others,
even if you can't actually communicate them to others.  It's like trying to
describe color to someone who could only see in black and white; the issue
isn't writing or language or anything, but experience.

In my experience, stoned thoughts and tripping thoughts have some overlap
but the latter tend to be much more legitimately profound and much harder
to express.

What is crazy to me is how few people here have tried psychedelics, which I
think is owed to the terrible marketing pitch they've gotten for the
past few decades.

My pitch would be something like:

"Are you interested in taking an extremely nontoxic medicine that will give
you the ability to think a thousand times faster and more expansively than
normal* and have access to parts of your mind** you didn't even know
existed?

*May include going nuts
**May include vast nightmare realms"

On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 12:27 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> What a lovely place you describe.  I don't know why they can't put some
> pictures and plants in offices and hospital rooms.  The more it feels like
> home the better the patients will feel.
>
> But your last sentence is highly suspicious.  Great insights into oneself
> or our culture etc. are said to be obtained in a trip.  When one gets back
> to normal, some of those 'insights' look rather quotidian.  "Why did I ever
> think that that was profound?"  , perhaps referring to something written
> down while stoned - common.
>
> So why don't the trippers write the psych books?  No hard data, I
> suspect.   bill w
>
> On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 11:59 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Honestly it's an uphill battle in the current medical/psychotherapeutic
>> milieu.  A psychedelic trip is just about the furthest you can get from the
>> western medicine vibe.  A fluorescently lit clinic is not a good place to
>> trip.  Nor is some futuristic minimalistic clinic like I've seen ads for,
>> in my opinion.  They need like, old houses with dim incandescent lights,
>> hardwood floors, incense, persian rugs, lots of throw pillows, a big grassy
>> yard with a pond and a flower garden, etc.  With lots of different rooms
>> and potential activities, spaces to change things up to calm or stimulate
>> the mind depending on what is needed.  And the therapists need to be
>> experienced in taking psychedelics themselves, there is no other way.  Just
>> being on a psychedelic can give you more insight into the human mind than
>> an entire doctorate degree.
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 17, 2022, 5:32 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> What is exciting to me is that they are on their way to more easily
>>> manipulate emotions and other brain states.  Think what they would mean for
>>> mental health.  The antidepressants and tranquilizers we have now are very
>>> crude.  bill w
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 2:26 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Also perhaps research growing Echinopsis pachanoi/Lophophora
>>>> williamsii, and also a little monkey told me is is very, very easy to use
>>>> Uncle Ben's microwaveable rice packets to grow many kinds of mushrooms,
>>>> from the bold porcini, to the subtle chanterelle, to the freaky-deaky
>>>> Psilocybe cubensis, which apparently has spores you can order online
>>>> completely legally, for looking at with your microscope of course, and it
>>>> would of course be illegal to use those rice packets as starter substrates
>>>> for said groovy mushrooms.  And apparently there is a community here
>>>> dedicated to growing all the aforementioned legal edible/medicinal
>>>> mushrooms here: https://www.reddit.com/r/unclebens/ and totally not
>>>> the kind that will make you realize you and I and the universe are all one
>>>> conscious being (but also infinite beings).  These little animals are
>>>> saying some crazy stuff!
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 3:18 PM Will Steinberg <
>>>> steinberg.will at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In general they would be mostly synthetic or semisynthetic (ergotamine
>>>>> precursor, could use dmt or ephedrine from plants as a precursor, etc) but
>>>>> there are reports of adding psychedelics to the growth substrate of
>>>>> psilocybe mushrooms which may cause them to hydroxylate the 4th position on
>>>>> the indole ring of whatever chem was added.  So in theory adding DiPT to
>>>>> the mushroom substrate can produce some 4-HO-DiPT in addition to the
>>>>> already present 4-HO-DMT (psilocin, which becomes O-phosphoryl-psilocin
>>>>> (psilocybin) in the plant so maybe the resultant chem would be
>>>>> O-phosphoryl-4-HO-DiPT?) .
>>>>>
>>>>> As for the theoretical home researcher, a little bird with huge pupils
>>>>> told me it is exceedingly easy and 100% legal to order Psychotria viridis
>>>>> leaf and Banisteriopsis caapi vine from European clearnet sources, and then
>>>>> it would technically be illegal, but very hard to find or prove given use
>>>>> in a closed environment like, say, your house, to brew these into
>>>>> ayahuasca, which could technically be dosed with various ratios of the leaf
>>>>> (DMT) and vine (MAOI) as well as admixture plants, or other DMT/MAOI
>>>>> containing plants like mimosa hostilis/acacia confusa for DMT or syrian rue
>>>>> for harmala alkaloid MAOI, to produce anywhere from a microdose experience
>>>>> to a mild shroom-type experience to a full-blown 12-hour shit-your-pants
>>>>> vision quest experience.   But that's just what the bird told me.  He also
>>>>> said something about psychedelic and dissociative analog chemicals also
>>>>> being readily available on the clearnet, including ones that are just
>>>>> straight-up prodrugs for LSD and the like, and are bizarrely completely
>>>>> legal, but he was frying pretty hard at that point and was saying some shit
>>>>> about dark matter being consciousness or something.  Idk
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 1:06 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>>>>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 11:17 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> numerous substituted indoles/tryptamines and substituted
>>>>>>> phenethylamines. 4-AcO-DMT or 2C-B for example
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks!  I'll check my local pharmacy!  I assume these and most
>>>>>> others are synthetic, not naturally derived from plants, mushrooms, etc.
>>>>>> Otherwise, where can I get the seeds?  bill w
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 11:39 AM William Flynn Wallace via
>>>>>>> extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://neurosciencenews.com/psychedelics-conscious-awareness-20203/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Which ones am I missing out on?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> bill w
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Fri Mar 18 21:18:37 2022
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 15:18:37 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Nobody knows the true colors of things, on this day of color.
Message-ID: <CAK7-onuUSiiJWLv10hREK_qgcrMbCN1zZH20QE6kkXNmxhBJUQ@mail.gmail.com>

Happy color festival, everyone.

Do you guys realize, nobody knows the true intrinsic color of anything?
All we know is the colors things seem to be.

See my answer to a question on color on Quora
<fhttps://www.quora.com/How-does-the-brain-create-colour-How-would-you-explain-colour-to-a-blind-person/answer/Brent-Allsop-1?__nsrc__=4&__snid3__=34123695021>
.

P.S.  Thank you Stathis, for your upvote.  That is HUGE for me.
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 18 21:31:40 2022
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 16:31:40 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyEW6CWDFN42qawt0kjTci3MBMSw1810znmpFVvL1A_ERA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZW3zeREAFANutJTNRdxRvLmPNBvVwM2xC3ADkUyngBdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyHosTDMqH-8ehHobBbbt-_PZZwQZTxtVPkt4DB=-=X4wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEavWqANRD7xOyqsnc-_jXHgqG+=o4NsBr7wmRHAr4VSMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyE4w+UDxtSk2cFyf+9ftf1T+2n-WSdj5J_boroN+n_HRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyGXs+17_NJ=2DuRtP5R-MoHOZ=RCj=AyG8BrwFQ8upT5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaZjFHwYkK0ViyX2P29QoKck9DQGkbdqpZ6+XyLEDf42Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyFfGbK_sZR3vArM9osDvk60_KKg26PpDry37JoM5+q=yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZi+zoT5BmH40vuDspquBGmehL144mVP15dWc1Cx0UmBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyEW6CWDFN42qawt0kjTci3MBMSw1810znmpFVvL1A_ERA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYrK+5xka4vM5V=3Srzx_ZwCo9K7uJynHZJ2Zrv4EbPhw@mail.gmail.com>

I know nothing about the research literature in psych re psychedelics.
Probably not a lot of it because of legalities.  But surely someone has
tested people who were tripping with some standard tests and such, and
could verify your assertion about thinking faster.

I don't think we were 'meant' to look into our ids in raw form.  I think it
might cause someone to go psychotic - or something.  Inability to express
one's inner dimensions is what killed introspection as a research tool in
psych.  In the fairly near future I think we will be able to hook a person
up to some equipment and tell pretty closely what they are feeling.  What
they are thinking may be next to impossible.   Too many possibilities.
bill w

On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 12:00 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> The ultimate truths of the mind can't really be written down or expressed,
> and if you tried to make them conform to current logic systems they would
> appear to be self-contradictory.  However, you can still vaguely remember
> the insights and use them as a guide in your life, and when guiding others,
> even if you can't actually communicate them to others.  It's like trying to
> describe color to someone who could only see in black and white; the issue
> isn't writing or language or anything, but experience.
>
> In my experience, stoned thoughts and tripping thoughts have some overlap
> but the latter tend to be much more legitimately profound and much harder
> to express.
>
> What is crazy to me is how few people here have tried psychedelics, which
> I think is owed to the terrible marketing pitch they've gotten for the
> past few decades.
>
> My pitch would be something like:
>
> "Are you interested in taking an extremely nontoxic medicine that will
> give you the ability to think a thousand times faster and more expansively
> than normal* and have access to parts of your mind** you didn't even know
> existed?
>
> *May include going nuts
> **May include vast nightmare realms"
>
> On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 12:27 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> What a lovely place you describe.  I don't know why they can't put some
>> pictures and plants in offices and hospital rooms.  The more it feels like
>> home the better the patients will feel.
>>
>> But your last sentence is highly suspicious.  Great insights into oneself
>> or our culture etc. are said to be obtained in a trip.  When one gets back
>> to normal, some of those 'insights' look rather quotidian.  "Why did I ever
>> think that that was profound?"  , perhaps referring to something written
>> down while stoned - common.
>>
>> So why don't the trippers write the psych books?  No hard data, I
>> suspect.   bill w
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 11:59 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Honestly it's an uphill battle in the current medical/psychotherapeutic
>>> milieu.  A psychedelic trip is just about the furthest you can get from the
>>> western medicine vibe.  A fluorescently lit clinic is not a good place to
>>> trip.  Nor is some futuristic minimalistic clinic like I've seen ads for,
>>> in my opinion.  They need like, old houses with dim incandescent lights,
>>> hardwood floors, incense, persian rugs, lots of throw pillows, a big grassy
>>> yard with a pond and a flower garden, etc.  With lots of different rooms
>>> and potential activities, spaces to change things up to calm or stimulate
>>> the mind depending on what is needed.  And the therapists need to be
>>> experienced in taking psychedelics themselves, there is no other way.  Just
>>> being on a psychedelic can give you more insight into the human mind than
>>> an entire doctorate degree.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 17, 2022, 5:32 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> What is exciting to me is that they are on their way to more easily
>>>> manipulate emotions and other brain states.  Think what they would mean for
>>>> mental health.  The antidepressants and tranquilizers we have now are very
>>>> crude.  bill w
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 2:26 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Also perhaps research growing Echinopsis pachanoi/Lophophora
>>>>> williamsii, and also a little monkey told me is is very, very easy to use
>>>>> Uncle Ben's microwaveable rice packets to grow many kinds of mushrooms,
>>>>> from the bold porcini, to the subtle chanterelle, to the freaky-deaky
>>>>> Psilocybe cubensis, which apparently has spores you can order online
>>>>> completely legally, for looking at with your microscope of course, and it
>>>>> would of course be illegal to use those rice packets as starter substrates
>>>>> for said groovy mushrooms.  And apparently there is a community here
>>>>> dedicated to growing all the aforementioned legal edible/medicinal
>>>>> mushrooms here: https://www.reddit.com/r/unclebens/ and totally not
>>>>> the kind that will make you realize you and I and the universe are all one
>>>>> conscious being (but also infinite beings).  These little animals are
>>>>> saying some crazy stuff!
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 3:18 PM Will Steinberg <
>>>>> steinberg.will at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In general they would be mostly synthetic or semisynthetic
>>>>>> (ergotamine precursor, could use dmt or ephedrine from plants as a
>>>>>> precursor, etc) but there are reports of adding psychedelics to the growth
>>>>>> substrate of psilocybe mushrooms which may cause them to hydroxylate the
>>>>>> 4th position on the indole ring of whatever chem was added.  So in theory
>>>>>> adding DiPT to the mushroom substrate can produce some 4-HO-DiPT in
>>>>>> addition to the already present 4-HO-DMT (psilocin, which becomes
>>>>>> O-phosphoryl-psilocin (psilocybin) in the plant so maybe the resultant chem
>>>>>> would be O-phosphoryl-4-HO-DiPT?) .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As for the theoretical home researcher, a little bird with huge
>>>>>> pupils told me it is exceedingly easy and 100% legal to order Psychotria
>>>>>> viridis leaf and Banisteriopsis caapi vine from European clearnet sources,
>>>>>> and then it would technically be illegal, but very hard to find or prove
>>>>>> given use in a closed environment like, say, your house, to brew these into
>>>>>> ayahuasca, which could technically be dosed with various ratios of the leaf
>>>>>> (DMT) and vine (MAOI) as well as admixture plants, or other DMT/MAOI
>>>>>> containing plants like mimosa hostilis/acacia confusa for DMT or syrian rue
>>>>>> for harmala alkaloid MAOI, to produce anywhere from a microdose experience
>>>>>> to a mild shroom-type experience to a full-blown 12-hour shit-your-pants
>>>>>> vision quest experience.   But that's just what the bird told me.  He also
>>>>>> said something about psychedelic and dissociative analog chemicals also
>>>>>> being readily available on the clearnet, including ones that are just
>>>>>> straight-up prodrugs for LSD and the like, and are bizarrely completely
>>>>>> legal, but he was frying pretty hard at that point and was saying some shit
>>>>>> about dark matter being consciousness or something.  Idk
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 1:06 PM William Flynn Wallace via
>>>>>> extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 11:17 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> numerous substituted indoles/tryptamines and substituted
>>>>>>>> phenethylamines. 4-AcO-DMT or 2C-B for example
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks!  I'll check my local pharmacy!  I assume these and most
>>>>>>> others are synthetic, not naturally derived from plants, mushrooms, etc.
>>>>>>> Otherwise, where can I get the seeds?  bill w
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 11:39 AM William Flynn Wallace via
>>>>>>>> extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://neurosciencenews.com/psychedelics-conscious-awareness-20203/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Which ones am I missing out on?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> bill w
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 18 21:35:30 2022
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 16:35:30 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Nobody knows the true colors of things,
 on this day of color.
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onuUSiiJWLv10hREK_qgcrMbCN1zZH20QE6kkXNmxhBJUQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7-onuUSiiJWLv10hREK_qgcrMbCN1zZH20QE6kkXNmxhBJUQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaBwNZKTKrsfKC1Cr3+mxhbtn0kCG_yPT7CMW9ZkwNSjA@mail.gmail.com>

I think that what you see is what you get and that there is no intrinsic
color of anything.  I don't even know what intrinsic means in this
context.   bill w

On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 4:21 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> Happy color festival, everyone.
>
> Do you guys realize, nobody knows the true intrinsic color of anything?
> All we know is the colors things seem to be.
>
> See my answer to a question on color on Quora.
>
> P.S.  Thank you Stathis, for your upvote.  That is HUGE for me.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 18 21:39:43 2022
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 16:39:43 -0500
Subject: [ExI] gas prices
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbpptdapGWAcxPH-F+Q4ZvfsyTkd-Xi9B1fehwv0Piccg@mail.gmail.com>

Will someone explain to me how we can be in the top 5 oil producers in the
world and not have enough gasoline?

Is it a problem with our refineries? I'll bet not. bill w
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From stathisp at gmail.com  Fri Mar 18 21:42:26 2022
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 08:42:26 +1100
Subject: [ExI] Nobody knows the true colors of things,
 on this day of color.
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaBwNZKTKrsfKC1Cr3+mxhbtn0kCG_yPT7CMW9ZkwNSjA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7-onuUSiiJWLv10hREK_qgcrMbCN1zZH20QE6kkXNmxhBJUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaBwNZKTKrsfKC1Cr3+mxhbtn0kCG_yPT7CMW9ZkwNSjA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH=2ypWqwTzcRqMLZpC7Vq6NjKPku1ApMbjhsPp3g4bXA9TKmg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 at 08:38, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I think that what you see is what you get and that there is no intrinsic
> color of anything.  I don't even know what intrinsic means in this
> context.   bill w
>

I think Brent means the experience of the colour, or colour qualia, as
opposed to description of the processes that lead to the experience.

On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 4:21 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> Happy color festival, everyone.
>>
>> Do you guys realize, nobody knows the true intrinsic color of anything?
>> All we know is the colors things seem to be.
>>
>> See my answer to a question on color on Quora.
>>
>> P.S.  Thank you Stathis, for your upvote.  That is HUGE for me.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-- 
Stathis Papaioannou
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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Mar 18 21:45:40 2022
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 14:45:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Nobody knows the true colors of things,
 on this day of color.
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onuUSiiJWLv10hREK_qgcrMbCN1zZH20QE6kkXNmxhBJUQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7-onuUSiiJWLv10hREK_qgcrMbCN1zZH20QE6kkXNmxhBJUQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTFwQLn2MJ+GCwhJ0oGuexKP1+ZCJUj6p=63j=sgNiuaA@mail.gmail.com>

That's circular reasoning from your definition of "true intrinsic color".

To my knowledge, the true intrinsic color of a thing is a composite of all
the wavelengths of light it reflects - which can be measured, and thus
known.  We might assign names to certain wavelengths or combinations of
wavelengths (for instance, "green" might refer to wavelengths of 495-570
nm), but that's just names for the wavelengths or combinations of
wavelengths.

On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 2:20 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> Happy color festival, everyone.
>
> Do you guys realize, nobody knows the true intrinsic color of anything?
> All we know is the colors things seem to be.
>
> See my answer to a question on color on Quora.
>
> P.S.  Thank you Stathis, for your upvote.  That is HUGE for me.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Mar 18 21:48:17 2022
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 14:48:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] gas prices
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbpptdapGWAcxPH-F+Q4ZvfsyTkd-Xi9B1fehwv0Piccg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbpptdapGWAcxPH-F+Q4ZvfsyTkd-Xi9B1fehwv0Piccg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRUR2d21r8myNbd8gHTrsQZDJ14uznPWv_yaXi0+X3yPg@mail.gmail.com>

First off, subtract the oil that goes to uses other than gasoline.

Then deduct the portion going to other people (such as Europe, especially
right now).

Then consider just how big our demand for/use of gasoline is.

Those three factors should explain most of the problem.  Corruption and
other contributors are details by comparison.

On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 2:44 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Will someone explain to me how we can be in the top 5 oil producers in the
> world and not have enough gasoline?
>
> Is it a problem with our refineries? I'll bet not. bill w
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Fri Mar 18 22:08:13 2022
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 16:08:13 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Nobody knows the true colors of things,
 on this day of color.
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypWqwTzcRqMLZpC7Vq6NjKPku1ApMbjhsPp3g4bXA9TKmg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7-onuUSiiJWLv10hREK_qgcrMbCN1zZH20QE6kkXNmxhBJUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaBwNZKTKrsfKC1Cr3+mxhbtn0kCG_yPT7CMW9ZkwNSjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWqwTzcRqMLZpC7Vq6NjKPku1ApMbjhsPp3g4bXA9TKmg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onsWQFQtLke6_ud3wd3oDmx4w-6jRGmGPsj=oS6EnRB9zA@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, any language that uses only one abstract word, for everything that
represents 'red' makes that language qualia blind  or unable to represent
different intrinsic physical qualities which may be representing red.
All of our peer reviewed physics, in it's entirety does this. so none of it
can model different qualities like redness and greenness.
That is why we use the term 'redness' or colorness intrinsic qualities, to
distinguish from red and color intrinsic qualities.
Something is 'red' if it reflects or emits red light, it has a color.
Redness, is something entirely different, it is a colorness quality.  An
intrinsic quality out of which your consciousness is composed.

A big part of consciousness is the ability to computationally bind
elemental qualities like redness and greenness together, to enabl3e
computation like: I (represented by something in your brain) intend to eat
that strawberry, represented by redness quality, also in your brain.

Adrian claimed my definition is circular.

No it isn't circular.  If we experimentally demonstrated that our
description of glutamate, reacting in a synapse, is your redness, and
glycine is your greenness, then these would be saying the same thing.

objective version:  My glutamate knowledge is like your glycine knowledge,
both of which we call red.
Subjective version: My redness knowledge is like your greenness knowledge,
both of which we call red.

Just because our brain seems be gray (we represent out knowledge of it with
something that has a greyness quality) doesn't mean al that stuff is
actually gray.


Another important part of all this, is there are two ways to gain knowledge.
We can see colors, (can be mistaken, if you get the dictionary wrong)  and
we directly apprehend colorness qualities (can't be mistaken), representing
our knowledge of colored things, the final result of color perception.
For more detail see our Distinguishing between reality and knowledge of
reality
<https://canonizer.com/videos/consciousness/?chapter=differentiate_reality_knowledge>
chapter of our video.









On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 3:48 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 at 08:38, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> I think that what you see is what you get and that there is no intrinsic
>> color of anything.  I don't even know what intrinsic means in this
>> context.   bill w
>>
>
> I think Brent means the experience of the colour, or colour qualia, as
> opposed to description of the processes that lead to the experience.
>
> On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 4:21 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Happy color festival, everyone.
>>>
>>> Do you guys realize, nobody knows the true intrinsic color of anything?
>>> All we know is the colors things seem to be.
>>>
>>> See my answer to a question on color on Quora.
>>>
>>> P.S.  Thank you Stathis, for your upvote.  That is HUGE for me.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> --
> Stathis Papaioannou
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From dsunley at gmail.com  Fri Mar 18 22:16:06 2022
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 16:16:06 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Nobody knows the true colors of things,
 on this day of color.
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onsWQFQtLke6_ud3wd3oDmx4w-6jRGmGPsj=oS6EnRB9zA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7-onuUSiiJWLv10hREK_qgcrMbCN1zZH20QE6kkXNmxhBJUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaBwNZKTKrsfKC1Cr3+mxhbtn0kCG_yPT7CMW9ZkwNSjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWqwTzcRqMLZpC7Vq6NjKPku1ApMbjhsPp3g4bXA9TKmg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onsWQFQtLke6_ud3wd3oDmx4w-6jRGmGPsj=oS6EnRB9zA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEptUkQuk2bjLNGfCbcYpQ_cu1osEZDAgRw0pXCw93mB_MMijg@mail.gmail.com>

All objects with a specific property are made of arrangements of things
that lack that property.

Colors are formed by particular arrangements of atoms and particles that
are intrinsically colorless.

On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 4:09 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> Yes, any language that uses only one abstract word, for everything that
> represents 'red' makes that language qualia blind  or unable to represent
> different intrinsic physical qualities which may be representing red.
> All of our peer reviewed physics, in it's entirety does this. so none of
> it can model different qualities like redness and greenness.
> That is why we use the term 'redness' or colorness intrinsic qualities, to
> distinguish from red and color intrinsic qualities.
> Something is 'red' if it reflects or emits red light, it has a color.
> Redness, is something entirely different, it is a colorness quality.  An
> intrinsic quality out of which your consciousness is composed.
>
> A big part of consciousness is the ability to computationally bind
> elemental qualities like redness and greenness together, to enabl3e
> computation like: I (represented by something in your brain) intend to eat
> that strawberry, represented by redness quality, also in your brain.
>
> Adrian claimed my definition is circular.
>
> No it isn't circular.  If we experimentally demonstrated that our
> description of glutamate, reacting in a synapse, is your redness, and
> glycine is your greenness, then these would be saying the same thing.
>
> objective version:  My glutamate knowledge is like your glycine knowledge,
> both of which we call red.
> Subjective version: My redness knowledge is like your greenness knowledge,
> both of which we call red.
>
> Just because our brain seems be gray (we represent out knowledge of it
> with something that has a greyness quality) doesn't mean al that stuff is
> actually gray.
>
>
> Another important part of all this, is there are two ways to gain
> knowledge.
> We can see colors, (can be mistaken, if you get the dictionary wrong)  and
> we directly apprehend colorness qualities (can't be mistaken), representing
> our knowledge of colored things, the final result of color perception.
> For more detail see our Distinguishing between reality and knowledge of
> reality
> <https://canonizer.com/videos/consciousness/?chapter=differentiate_reality_knowledge>
> chapter of our video.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 3:48 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 at 08:38, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I think that what you see is what you get and that there is no intrinsic
>>> color of anything.  I don't even know what intrinsic means in this
>>> context.   bill w
>>>
>>
>> I think Brent means the experience of the colour, or colour qualia, as
>> opposed to description of the processes that lead to the experience.
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 4:21 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Happy color festival, everyone.
>>>>
>>>> Do you guys realize, nobody knows the true intrinsic color of
>>>> anything?  All we know is the colors things seem to be.
>>>>
>>>> See my answer to a question on color on Quora.
>>>>
>>>> P.S.  Thank you Stathis, for your upvote.  That is HUGE for me.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> --
>> Stathis Papaioannou
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Mar 18 22:33:47 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 15:33:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYrK+5xka4vM5V=3Srzx_ZwCo9K7uJynHZJ2Zrv4EbPhw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZW3zeREAFANutJTNRdxRvLmPNBvVwM2xC3ADkUyngBdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyHosTDMqH-8ehHobBbbt-_PZZwQZTxtVPkt4DB=-=X4wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEavWqANRD7xOyqsnc-_jXHgqG+=o4NsBr7wmRHAr4VSMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyE4w+UDxtSk2cFyf+9ftf1T+2n-WSdj5J_boroN+n_HRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyGXs+17_NJ=2DuRtP5R-MoHOZ=RCj=AyG8BrwFQ8upT5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaZjFHwYkK0ViyX2P29QoKck9DQGkbdqpZ6+XyLEDf42Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyFfGbK_sZR3vArM9osDvk60_KKg26PpDry37JoM5+q=yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZi+zoT5BmH40vuDspquBGmehL144mVP15dWc1Cx0UmBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyEW6CWDFN42qawt0kjTci3MBMSw1810znmpFVvL1A_ERA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYrK+5xka4vM5V=3Srzx_ZwCo9K7uJynHZJ2Zrv4EbPhw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006a01d83b18$3c600810$b5201830$@rainier66.com>

 

On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 12:00 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

?

 

My pitch would be something like:

 

"Are you interested in taking an extremely nontoxic medicine that will give you the ability to think a thousand times faster and more expansively than normal* and have access to parts of your mind** you didn't even know existed?

 

*May include going nuts

**May include vast nightmare realms"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Will, this medication you describe should be worded as ??give you the ability to perceive that you are thinking a thousand times faster?? 

 

But there is no need to debate wording, for this can be easily measured, particularly for those who play chess.  Go on Chess.com, play a few dozen games, establish a rating in speed chess (ten minutes for the game (it goes lightning fast and requires intense concentration and calculation.))

 

Then, devour your favorite medication.  As soon as it kicks in, play.  If you really are thinking a thousand times faster, you will win every game.  Your rating will rise 300 points in one evening.  If on the other hand, you perceive you are thinking a thousand times faster, they will kick your butt until it is located between your shoulder blades.

 

If you decide to try this experiment, do offer us a chance to bet on the outcome please.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Mar 18 23:06:54 2022
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 16:06:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Nobody knows the true colors of things,
 on this day of color.
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onsWQFQtLke6_ud3wd3oDmx4w-6jRGmGPsj=oS6EnRB9zA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7-onuUSiiJWLv10hREK_qgcrMbCN1zZH20QE6kkXNmxhBJUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaBwNZKTKrsfKC1Cr3+mxhbtn0kCG_yPT7CMW9ZkwNSjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWqwTzcRqMLZpC7Vq6NjKPku1ApMbjhsPp3g4bXA9TKmg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onsWQFQtLke6_ud3wd3oDmx4w-6jRGmGPsj=oS6EnRB9zA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQn1PP4FHR-SfZMimhoG5so460N3qbRyd=OofGiJXG_pw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 3:09 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Adrian claimed my definition is circular.
>
> No it isn't circular.  If we experimentally demonstrated that our
> description of glutamate, reacting in a synapse, is your redness, and
> glycine is your greenness, then these would be saying the same thing.
>

How might that experiment be done?  You seem to define redness et al as
something that can not be measured thusly.
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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Mar 18 23:08:23 2022
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 16:08:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Nobody knows the true colors of things,
 on this day of color.
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypWqwTzcRqMLZpC7Vq6NjKPku1ApMbjhsPp3g4bXA9TKmg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7-onuUSiiJWLv10hREK_qgcrMbCN1zZH20QE6kkXNmxhBJUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaBwNZKTKrsfKC1Cr3+mxhbtn0kCG_yPT7CMW9ZkwNSjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWqwTzcRqMLZpC7Vq6NjKPku1ApMbjhsPp3g4bXA9TKmg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSV=s9SEFb4Oh0HbAzJy1uRA-Gk6dd830Z_YTP1UhS5jg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 2:49 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 at 08:38, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> I think that what you see is what you get and that there is no intrinsic
>> color of anything.  I don't even know what intrinsic means in this
>> context.   bill w
>>
>
> I think Brent means the experience of the colour, or colour qualia, as
> opposed to description of the processes that lead to the experience.
>

Which is part of my problem with that definition.  An "intrinsic" property
of an object does not depend on how it is perceived.
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From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Fri Mar 18 23:49:20 2022
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 17:49:20 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Nobody knows the true colors of things,
 on this day of color.
In-Reply-To: <CAEptUkQuk2bjLNGfCbcYpQ_cu1osEZDAgRw0pXCw93mB_MMijg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7-onuUSiiJWLv10hREK_qgcrMbCN1zZH20QE6kkXNmxhBJUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaBwNZKTKrsfKC1Cr3+mxhbtn0kCG_yPT7CMW9ZkwNSjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWqwTzcRqMLZpC7Vq6NjKPku1ApMbjhsPp3g4bXA9TKmg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onsWQFQtLke6_ud3wd3oDmx4w-6jRGmGPsj=oS6EnRB9zA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkQuk2bjLNGfCbcYpQ_cu1osEZDAgRw0pXCw93mB_MMijg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onvhJdczGFOY01F9NVuGixfsOmGTgyYOYJokAEo_7qsybQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Darin,

When say "colors" are you talking about properties of things that reflect a
particular pattern of light, the properties of the light, or the intrinsic
qualities you brain uses to represent conscious knowledge of red things?
All very different things.


On Fri, Mar 18, 2022, 4:17 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> All objects with a specific property are made of arrangements of things
> that lack that property.
>
> Colors are formed by particular arrangements of atoms and particles that
> are intrinsically colorless.
>
> On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 4:09 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> Yes, any language that uses only one abstract word, for everything that
>> represents 'red' makes that language qualia blind  or unable to represent
>> different intrinsic physical qualities which may be representing red.
>> All of our peer reviewed physics, in it's entirety does this. so none of
>> it can model different qualities like redness and greenness.
>> That is why we use the term 'redness' or colorness intrinsic qualities,
>> to distinguish from red and color intrinsic qualities.
>> Something is 'red' if it reflects or emits red light, it has a color.
>> Redness, is something entirely different, it is a colorness quality.  An
>> intrinsic quality out of which your consciousness is composed.
>>
>> A big part of consciousness is the ability to computationally bind
>> elemental qualities like redness and greenness together, to enabl3e
>> computation like: I (represented by something in your brain) intend to eat
>> that strawberry, represented by redness quality, also in your brain.
>>
>> Adrian claimed my definition is circular.
>>
>> No it isn't circular.  If we experimentally demonstrated that our
>> description of glutamate, reacting in a synapse, is your redness, and
>> glycine is your greenness, then these would be saying the same thing.
>>
>> objective version:  My glutamate knowledge is like your
>> glycine knowledge, both of which we call red.
>> Subjective version: My redness knowledge is like your greenness
>> knowledge, both of which we call red.
>>
>> Just because our brain seems be gray (we represent out knowledge of it
>> with something that has a greyness quality) doesn't mean al that stuff is
>> actually gray.
>>
>>
>> Another important part of all this, is there are two ways to gain
>> knowledge.
>> We can see colors, (can be mistaken, if you get the dictionary wrong)
>> and we directly apprehend colorness qualities (can't be mistaken),
>> representing our knowledge of colored things, the final result of color
>> perception.
>> For more detail see our Distinguishing between reality and knowledge of
>> reality
>> <https://canonizer.com/videos/consciousness/?chapter=differentiate_reality_knowledge>
>> chapter of our video.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 3:48 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 at 08:38, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think that what you see is what you get and that there is no
>>>> intrinsic color of anything.  I don't even know what intrinsic means in
>>>> this context.   bill w
>>>>
>>>
>>> I think Brent means the experience of the colour, or colour qualia, as
>>> opposed to description of the processes that lead to the experience.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 4:21 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Happy color festival, everyone.
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you guys realize, nobody knows the true intrinsic color of
>>>>> anything?  All we know is the colors things seem to be.
>>>>>
>>>>> See my answer to a question on color on Quora.
>>>>>
>>>>> P.S.  Thank you Stathis, for your upvote.  That is HUGE for me.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>> --
>>> Stathis Papaioannou
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Fri Mar 18 23:59:53 2022
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 19:59:53 -0400
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <006a01d83b18$3c600810$b5201830$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZW3zeREAFANutJTNRdxRvLmPNBvVwM2xC3ADkUyngBdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyHosTDMqH-8ehHobBbbt-_PZZwQZTxtVPkt4DB=-=X4wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEavWqANRD7xOyqsnc-_jXHgqG+=o4NsBr7wmRHAr4VSMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyE4w+UDxtSk2cFyf+9ftf1T+2n-WSdj5J_boroN+n_HRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyGXs+17_NJ=2DuRtP5R-MoHOZ=RCj=AyG8BrwFQ8upT5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaZjFHwYkK0ViyX2P29QoKck9DQGkbdqpZ6+XyLEDf42Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyFfGbK_sZR3vArM9osDvk60_KKg26PpDry37JoM5+q=yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZi+zoT5BmH40vuDspquBGmehL144mVP15dWc1Cx0UmBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyEW6CWDFN42qawt0kjTci3MBMSw1810znmpFVvL1A_ERA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYrK+5xka4vM5V=3Srzx_ZwCo9K7uJynHZJ2Zrv4EbPhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <006a01d83b18$3c600810$b5201830$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyEe5yaPYmvtjdya4=2rc9R+SbgN8BV+3+kuggzLy_tVHQ@mail.gmail.com>

Well the thing is, I don't want to play chess when I'm tripping, lol.  Too
much other stuff to think about.

Various people have tried it anecdotally to success, here's just one:
https://www.chess.com/forum/view/general/chess-experience-with-psilocybin-mushrooms2
but I know friends who say microdoses improve their performance, as it
obviously would to anyone who has taken a psychedelic.  Idk, it's not
really possible to explain, but once you experience it, it will speak for
itself.  Like I mentioned, cf. Mary the Color Scientist, how do I explain a
qualitatively fully novel experience with no good words to describe it and
connect back to the language most people understand?  I'm not trying to be
an elitist, I'm just highly suggesting you at least try a psychedelic
before you die, because it is a horrible travesty for someone intelligent
to go through their entire lives without experiencing it.  That's how
different and special the experience is, and I'm sure anyone here who is
also experienced can vouch for me.

Here is a friendly bet with a positive expected value for you, Spike.  Take
a small dose of psychedelics, and then if you can come back and truthfully
tell me it ISN'T an experience that every intelligent person should try, I
will send you 0.25 ETH.  If I win, you don't have to pay me anything. ;)

On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 6:34 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 12:00 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> ?
>
>
>
> My pitch would be something like:
>
>
>
> "Are you interested in taking an extremely nontoxic medicine that will
> give you the ability to think a thousand times faster and more expansively
> than normal* and have access to parts of your mind** you didn't even know
> existed?
>
>
>
> *May include going nuts
>
> **May include vast nightmare realms"
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Will, this medication you describe should be worded as ??give you the
> ability to perceive that you are thinking a thousand times faster??
>
>
>
> But there is no need to debate wording, for this can be easily measured,
> particularly for those who play chess.  Go on Chess.com, play a few dozen
> games, establish a rating in speed chess (ten minutes for the game (it goes
> lightning fast and requires intense concentration and calculation.))
>
>
>
> Then, devour your favorite medication.  As soon as it kicks in, play.  If
> you really are thinking a thousand times faster, you will win every game.
> Your rating will rise 300 points in one evening.  If on the other hand, you
> perceive you are thinking a thousand times faster, they will kick your butt
> until it is located between your shoulder blades.
>
>
>
> If you decide to try this experiment, do offer us a chance to bet on the
> outcome please.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From jasonresch at gmail.com  Sat Mar 19 00:10:19 2022
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 20:10:19 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Nobody knows the true colors of things,
 on this day of color.
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onvhJdczGFOY01F9NVuGixfsOmGTgyYOYJokAEo_7qsybQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7-onuUSiiJWLv10hREK_qgcrMbCN1zZH20QE6kkXNmxhBJUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaBwNZKTKrsfKC1Cr3+mxhbtn0kCG_yPT7CMW9ZkwNSjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWqwTzcRqMLZpC7Vq6NjKPku1ApMbjhsPp3g4bXA9TKmg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onsWQFQtLke6_ud3wd3oDmx4w-6jRGmGPsj=oS6EnRB9zA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkQuk2bjLNGfCbcYpQ_cu1osEZDAgRw0pXCw93mB_MMijg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onvhJdczGFOY01F9NVuGixfsOmGTgyYOYJokAEo_7qsybQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+BCJUiK9BUVtVxH2Rzt_wfLd1hT5ummnpmOBRAhRrnhj90cdA@mail.gmail.com>

Are there infinitely possible primary colors, given there are infinitely
many possible organizations of brains?

There're colorblind people and most mammals with two primary colors,
primates and fish with three, birds and some tetrachromat humans with four,
and I think there's some shrimp with 16. If there's no fundamental limit to
the number of primary colors a mind can perceive, then are primary colors
physical/chemical/neurological properties, or are they
logical/informational/mathematical properties? I lean towards the latter
grouping.

Jason

On Fri, Mar 18, 2022, 7:50 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Hi Darin,
>
> When say "colors" are you talking about properties of things that reflect
> a particular pattern of light, the properties of the light, or the
> intrinsic qualities you brain uses to represent conscious knowledge of red
> things?  All very different things.
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 18, 2022, 4:17 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> All objects with a specific property are made of arrangements of things
>> that lack that property.
>>
>> Colors are formed by particular arrangements of atoms and particles that
>> are intrinsically colorless.
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 4:09 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Yes, any language that uses only one abstract word, for everything that
>>> represents 'red' makes that language qualia blind  or unable to represent
>>> different intrinsic physical qualities which may be representing red.
>>> All of our peer reviewed physics, in it's entirety does this. so none of
>>> it can model different qualities like redness and greenness.
>>> That is why we use the term 'redness' or colorness intrinsic qualities,
>>> to distinguish from red and color intrinsic qualities.
>>> Something is 'red' if it reflects or emits red light, it has a color.
>>> Redness, is something entirely different, it is a colorness quality.  An
>>> intrinsic quality out of which your consciousness is composed.
>>>
>>> A big part of consciousness is the ability to computationally bind
>>> elemental qualities like redness and greenness together, to enabl3e
>>> computation like: I (represented by something in your brain) intend to eat
>>> that strawberry, represented by redness quality, also in your brain.
>>>
>>> Adrian claimed my definition is circular.
>>>
>>> No it isn't circular.  If we experimentally demonstrated that our
>>> description of glutamate, reacting in a synapse, is your redness, and
>>> glycine is your greenness, then these would be saying the same thing.
>>>
>>> objective version:  My glutamate knowledge is like your
>>> glycine knowledge, both of which we call red.
>>> Subjective version: My redness knowledge is like your greenness
>>> knowledge, both of which we call red.
>>>
>>> Just because our brain seems be gray (we represent out knowledge of it
>>> with something that has a greyness quality) doesn't mean al that stuff is
>>> actually gray.
>>>
>>>
>>> Another important part of all this, is there are two ways to gain
>>> knowledge.
>>> We can see colors, (can be mistaken, if you get the dictionary wrong)
>>> and we directly apprehend colorness qualities (can't be mistaken),
>>> representing our knowledge of colored things, the final result of color
>>> perception.
>>> For more detail see our Distinguishing between reality and knowledge of
>>> reality
>>> <https://canonizer.com/videos/consciousness/?chapter=differentiate_reality_knowledge>
>>> chapter of our video.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 3:48 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 at 08:38, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I think that what you see is what you get and that there is no
>>>>> intrinsic color of anything.  I don't even know what intrinsic means in
>>>>> this context.   bill w
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think Brent means the experience of the colour, or colour qualia, as
>>>> opposed to description of the processes that lead to the experience.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 4:21 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Happy color festival, everyone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you guys realize, nobody knows the true intrinsic color of
>>>>>> anything?  All we know is the colors things seem to be.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> See my answer to a question on color on Quora.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> P.S.  Thank you Stathis, for your upvote.  That is HUGE for me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Stathis Papaioannou
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Mar 19 00:23:08 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 17:23:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyEe5yaPYmvtjdya4=2rc9R+SbgN8BV+3+kuggzLy_tVHQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZW3zeREAFANutJTNRdxRvLmPNBvVwM2xC3ADkUyngBdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyHosTDMqH-8ehHobBbbt-_PZZwQZTxtVPkt4DB=-=X4wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEavWqANRD7xOyqsnc-_jXHgqG+=o4NsBr7wmRHAr4VSMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyE4w+UDxtSk2cFyf+9ftf1T+2n-WSdj5J_boroN+n_HRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyGXs+17_NJ=2DuRtP5R-MoHOZ=RCj=AyG8BrwFQ8upT5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaZjFHwYkK0ViyX2P29QoKck9DQGkbdqpZ6+XyLEDf42Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyFfGbK_sZR3vArM9osDvk60_KKg26PpDry37JoM5+q=yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZi+zoT5BmH40vuDspquBGmehL144mVP15dWc1Cx0UmBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyEW6CWDFN42qawt0kjTci3MBMSw1810znmpFVvL1A_ERA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYrK+5xka4vM5V=3Srzx_ZwCo9K7uJynHZJ2Zrv4EbPhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <006a01d83b18$3c600810$b5201830$@rainier66.com>
 <CAKrqSyEe5yaPYmvtjdya4=2rc9R+SbgN8BV+3+kuggzLy_tVHQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00d201d83b27$82c288a0$884799e0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??

 

>?Well the thing is, I don't want to play chess when I'm tripping, lol.  Too much other stuff to think about.

 

>?Various people have tried it anecdotally to success, here's just one: https://www.chess.com/forum/view/general/chess-experience-with-psilocybin-mushrooms2 but I know friends who say microdoses improve their performance, as it obviously would to anyone who has taken a psychedelic.  Idk, it's not really possible to explain, but once you experience it, it will speak for itself.  Like I mentioned, cf. Mary the Color Scientist, how do I explain a qualitatively fully novel experience with no good words to describe it and connect back to the language most people understand?  I'm not trying to be an elitist, I'm just highly suggesting you at least try a psychedelic before you die, because it is a horrible travesty for someone intelligent to go through their entire lives without experiencing it.  That's how different and special the experience is, and I'm sure anyone here who is also experienced can vouch for me.

 

>?Here is a friendly bet with a positive expected value for you, Spike.  Take a small dose of psychedelics, and then if you can come back and truthfully tell me it ISN'T an experience that every intelligent person should try, I will send you 0.25 ETH.  If I win, you don't have to pay me anything. ;)

 

 

 

Thanks Will.  You know me well enough to not be surprised at my reply to that: I flatly refuse to do any such thing as this.  The usual no way Jose is an understatement.  I don?t cotton to it.  I shall risk the terrible tragedy of perishing without ever having the experience.

 

I went to your link and saw that the test is irrelevant, for players below 1000 really don?t understand the game well enough.  Even a series of them would have little statistical significance.

 

I can counter-propose an experiment however.  My rating bops around in the mid 1800s.  I would challenge some adventurous 18er to eat magic mushrooms or whatever else she wishes, then we begin a series of games as the medication takes effect, note the location of her butt initially, see if it ends up between her shoulder blades a coupla hours later.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Sat Mar 19 00:47:51 2022
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 18:47:51 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Nobody knows the true colors of things,
 on this day of color.
In-Reply-To: <CA+BCJUiK9BUVtVxH2Rzt_wfLd1hT5ummnpmOBRAhRrnhj90cdA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7-onuUSiiJWLv10hREK_qgcrMbCN1zZH20QE6kkXNmxhBJUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaBwNZKTKrsfKC1Cr3+mxhbtn0kCG_yPT7CMW9ZkwNSjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWqwTzcRqMLZpC7Vq6NjKPku1ApMbjhsPp3g4bXA9TKmg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onsWQFQtLke6_ud3wd3oDmx4w-6jRGmGPsj=oS6EnRB9zA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkQuk2bjLNGfCbcYpQ_cu1osEZDAgRw0pXCw93mB_MMijg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onvhJdczGFOY01F9NVuGixfsOmGTgyYOYJokAEo_7qsybQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAK7-ontJfEQsrrm54uw1HHU1v2wEeyBqcn+Y7Tegd7HLvghtOg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Jason,
logical/information/mathematical stuff is all abstract.  Like the word
'red' you can't know what it means, without a dictionary.
Redness is just a physical fact. a property of something in nature.  It is
simply a fact that your brain uses whatever has that redness quality to
represent your knowledge of red things with.  Your redness is your
definition of red.
The limiting factor is how many intrinsic coolness qualities we can
discover in nature.
Let's assume there is a new coolness quality we discover which nobody has
ever experienced before.  let's call it Grue.
Then we can computationally bind it into your consciousness.
Then we throw the switch, at which point you say: "oh THAT is what Grue is
like" and you  now have your dictionary for 'Grue'.
Then you augment your eye to detect the new wavelength you want to
represent with Grue, and wire it up to represent information collected
about that particular wavelength.









On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 6:11 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Are there infinitely possible primary colors, given there are infinitely
> many possible organizations of brains?
>
> There're colorblind people and most mammals with two primary colors,
> primates and fish with three, birds and some tetrachromat humans with four,
> and I think there's some shrimp with 16. If there's no fundamental limit to
> the number of primary colors a mind can perceive, then are primary colors
> physical/chemical/neurological properties, or are they
> logical/informational/mathematical properties? I lean towards the latter
> grouping.
>
> Jason
>
> On Fri, Mar 18, 2022, 7:50 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi Darin,
>>
>> When say "colors" are you talking about properties of things that reflect
>> a particular pattern of light, the properties of the light, or the
>> intrinsic qualities you brain uses to represent conscious knowledge of red
>> things?  All very different things.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 18, 2022, 4:17 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> All objects with a specific property are made of arrangements of things
>>> that lack that property.
>>>
>>> Colors are formed by particular arrangements of atoms and particles that
>>> are intrinsically colorless.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 4:09 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, any language that uses only one abstract word, for everything that
>>>> represents 'red' makes that language qualia blind  or unable to represent
>>>> different intrinsic physical qualities which may be representing red.
>>>> All of our peer reviewed physics, in it's entirety does this. so none
>>>> of it can model different qualities like redness and greenness.
>>>> That is why we use the term 'redness' or colorness intrinsic qualities,
>>>> to distinguish from red and color intrinsic qualities.
>>>> Something is 'red' if it reflects or emits red light, it has a color.
>>>> Redness, is something entirely different, it is a colorness quality.
>>>> An intrinsic quality out of which your consciousness is composed.
>>>>
>>>> A big part of consciousness is the ability to computationally bind
>>>> elemental qualities like redness and greenness together, to enabl3e
>>>> computation like: I (represented by something in your brain) intend to eat
>>>> that strawberry, represented by redness quality, also in your brain.
>>>>
>>>> Adrian claimed my definition is circular.
>>>>
>>>> No it isn't circular.  If we experimentally demonstrated that our
>>>> description of glutamate, reacting in a synapse, is your redness, and
>>>> glycine is your greenness, then these would be saying the same thing.
>>>>
>>>> objective version:  My glutamate knowledge is like your
>>>> glycine knowledge, both of which we call red.
>>>> Subjective version: My redness knowledge is like your greenness
>>>> knowledge, both of which we call red.
>>>>
>>>> Just because our brain seems be gray (we represent out knowledge of it
>>>> with something that has a greyness quality) doesn't mean al that stuff is
>>>> actually gray.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Another important part of all this, is there are two ways to gain
>>>> knowledge.
>>>> We can see colors, (can be mistaken, if you get the dictionary wrong)
>>>> and we directly apprehend colorness qualities (can't be mistaken),
>>>> representing our knowledge of colored things, the final result of color
>>>> perception.
>>>> For more detail see our Distinguishing between reality and knowledge
>>>> of reality
>>>> <https://canonizer.com/videos/consciousness/?chapter=differentiate_reality_knowledge>
>>>> chapter of our video.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 3:48 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 at 08:38, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think that what you see is what you get and that there is no
>>>>>> intrinsic color of anything.  I don't even know what intrinsic means in
>>>>>> this context.   bill w
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I think Brent means the experience of the colour, or colour qualia, as
>>>>> opposed to description of the processes that lead to the experience.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 4:21 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Happy color festival, everyone.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you guys realize, nobody knows the true intrinsic color of
>>>>>>> anything?  All we know is the colors things seem to be.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> See my answer to a question on color on Quora.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> P.S.  Thank you Stathis, for your upvote.  That is HUGE for me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Stathis Papaioannou
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Sat Mar 19 00:58:30 2022
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 20:58:30 -0400
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <00d201d83b27$82c288a0$884799e0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZW3zeREAFANutJTNRdxRvLmPNBvVwM2xC3ADkUyngBdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyHosTDMqH-8ehHobBbbt-_PZZwQZTxtVPkt4DB=-=X4wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEavWqANRD7xOyqsnc-_jXHgqG+=o4NsBr7wmRHAr4VSMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyE4w+UDxtSk2cFyf+9ftf1T+2n-WSdj5J_boroN+n_HRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyGXs+17_NJ=2DuRtP5R-MoHOZ=RCj=AyG8BrwFQ8upT5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaZjFHwYkK0ViyX2P29QoKck9DQGkbdqpZ6+XyLEDf42Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyFfGbK_sZR3vArM9osDvk60_KKg26PpDry37JoM5+q=yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZi+zoT5BmH40vuDspquBGmehL144mVP15dWc1Cx0UmBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyEW6CWDFN42qawt0kjTci3MBMSw1810znmpFVvL1A_ERA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYrK+5xka4vM5V=3Srzx_ZwCo9K7uJynHZJ2Zrv4EbPhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <006a01d83b18$3c600810$b5201830$@rainier66.com>
 <CAKrqSyEe5yaPYmvtjdya4=2rc9R+SbgN8BV+3+kuggzLy_tVHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d201d83b27$82c288a0$884799e0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyGzFwW5NH-Btk6BgKuJWpF+Bbg=qb3dAhmTKx_mNi83Dg@mail.gmail.com>

Why are you so against it?  I don't really understand.  Upbringing?  It
seems very anti-learning.

On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 8:23 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *?*> *On Behalf Of *Will Steinberg via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
>
>
>
> >?Well the thing is, I don't want to play chess when I'm tripping, lol.
> Too much other stuff to think about.
>
>
>
> >?Various people have tried it anecdotally to success, here's just one:
> https://www.chess.com/forum/view/general/chess-experience-with-psilocybin-mushrooms2
> but I know friends who say microdoses improve their performance, as it
> obviously would to anyone who has taken a psychedelic.  Idk, it's not
> really possible to explain, but once you experience it, it will speak for
> itself.  Like I mentioned, cf. Mary the Color Scientist, how do I explain a
> qualitatively fully novel experience with no good words to describe it and
> connect back to the language most people understand?  I'm not trying to be
> an elitist, I'm just highly suggesting you at least try a psychedelic
> before you die, because it is a horrible travesty for someone intelligent
> to go through their entire lives without experiencing it.  That's how
> different and special the experience is, and I'm sure anyone here who is
> also experienced can vouch for me.
>
>
>
> >?Here is a friendly bet with a positive expected value for you, Spike.
> Take a small dose of psychedelics, and then if you can come back and
> truthfully tell me it ISN'T an experience that every intelligent person
> should try, I will send you 0.25 ETH.  If I win, you don't have to pay me
> anything. ;)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks Will.  You know me well enough to not be surprised at my reply to
> that: I flatly refuse to do any such thing as this.  The usual no way Jose
> is an understatement.  I don?t cotton to it.  I shall risk the terrible
> tragedy of perishing without ever having the experience.
>
>
>
> I went to your link and saw that the test is irrelevant, for players below
> 1000 really don?t understand the game well enough.  Even a series of them
> would have little statistical significance.
>
>
>
> I can counter-propose an experiment however.  My rating bops around in the
> mid 1800s.  I would challenge some adventurous 18er to eat magic mushrooms
> or whatever else she wishes, then we begin a series of games as the
> medication takes effect, note the location of her butt initially, see if it
> ends up between her shoulder blades a coupla hours later.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Mar 19 01:44:08 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 18:44:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyGzFwW5NH-Btk6BgKuJWpF+Bbg=qb3dAhmTKx_mNi83Dg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZW3zeREAFANutJTNRdxRvLmPNBvVwM2xC3ADkUyngBdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyHosTDMqH-8ehHobBbbt-_PZZwQZTxtVPkt4DB=-=X4wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEavWqANRD7xOyqsnc-_jXHgqG+=o4NsBr7wmRHAr4VSMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyE4w+UDxtSk2cFyf+9ftf1T+2n-WSdj5J_boroN+n_HRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyGXs+17_NJ=2DuRtP5R-MoHOZ=RCj=AyG8BrwFQ8upT5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaZjFHwYkK0ViyX2P29QoKck9DQGkbdqpZ6+XyLEDf42Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyFfGbK_sZR3vArM9osDvk60_KKg26PpDry37JoM5+q=yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZi+zoT5BmH40vuDspquBGmehL144mVP15dWc1Cx0UmBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyEW6CWDFN42qawt0kjTci3MBMSw1810znmpFVvL1A_ERA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYrK+5xka4vM5V=3Srzx_ZwCo9K7uJynHZJ2Zrv4EbPhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <006a01d83b18$3c600810$b5201830$@rainier66.com>
 <CAKrqSyEe5yaPYmvtjdya4=2rc9R+SbgN8BV+3+kuggzLy_tVHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d201d83b27$82c288a0$884799e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAKrqSyGzFwW5NH-Btk6BgKuJWpF+Bbg=qb3dAhmTKx_mNi83Dg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <011201d83b32$d3c7a630$7b56f290$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??

 

 

 

 

 

 

>?Why are you so against it?  I don't really understand.  Upbringing?  It seems very anti-learning?

 

Could be early perceptions are influencing my attitude.  When I was a child, rock stars seemed to be dropping dead regularly.  Judy Garland (ja I know she wasn?t a rock star, but liked her voice),  Alan Wilson, Jimi Hendrix and Janis Joplin were all in the same few weeks as I recall, Jim Morrison was a little later, Mama Cass they half-ass tried to tell us she choked on a ham sandwich, but we suspect it was dope or perhaps heart failure.  It did seem like drugs were taking a lotta stars, and ja I realize acid ODs are not fatal usually but in any case, I do admire your openness and honesty about the risks, going crazy and vast nightmare realms.  That last part has a poetic ring to it, but I would rather read about it in a poem than live it.

 

Besides that? it suffices me to hear your description of it, as I play chess.

 

Regarding that last part, it would be an interesting experiment, for that would give us a ton of data.  Reasoning: the win/loss number is only a tiny fraction of the data available.  The computer analyzes the games and can tell us accuracy, time per move, how many blunders, how many brilliant ideas and so forth, so we could get about 30 good data points per 10 minute game.  We could collect a pile of evidence easily.  As I said, I will go nowhere near the stuff, any of it.  But I will interpret data if someone else wants to give it a go.

 

spike

 

 

 

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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sat Mar 19 02:35:06 2022
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 22:35:06 -0400
Subject: [ExI] gas prices
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRUR2d21r8myNbd8gHTrsQZDJ14uznPWv_yaXi0+X3yPg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbpptdapGWAcxPH-F+Q4ZvfsyTkd-Xi9B1fehwv0Piccg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRUR2d21r8myNbd8gHTrsQZDJ14uznPWv_yaXi0+X3yPg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFgkBSFZKP_wM=zcoQ2JDDO0M-LJh7w2WXMnbsnUGLDJxQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 6:00 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> First off, subtract the oil that goes to uses other than gasoline.
>
> Then deduct the portion going to other people (such as Europe, especially
> right now).
>
> Then consider just how big our demand for/use of gasoline is.
>
> Those three factors should explain most of the problem.  Corruption and
> other contributors are details by comparison.
>

### Under Trump we had more than enough oil and gas, even enough for
export. Biden's war on domestic oil producers seems to be working as
expected.

Rafal
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From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu  Sat Mar 19 02:45:41 2022
From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 22:45:41 -0400
Subject: [ExI] gas prices
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRUR2d21r8myNbd8gHTrsQZDJ14uznPWv_yaXi0+X3yPg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNRUR2d21r8myNbd8gHTrsQZDJ14uznPWv_yaXi0+X3yPg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <77FC5134-B93F-4C84-A18D-A37AD74D7B21@alumni.virginia.edu>

Hey everyone. Long time no-write. 

Not to hijack the thread, I wanted to briefly tell   Spike that I bought a Tesla this week! I recall him talking about Tesla?s in the past. I got a Model 3 Long Range Awd 2018. My high performance modified 2006 wrx sti blew the motor so I?m coming from a beast. The Tesla is not leaving me feeling deprived with 0-60 in 4 secs!! In silence except tire noise. It?s a full self-driving model. It will come pick me up when it?s parked so I don?t have to walk to it. I?ve never been more impressed with a vehicle or piece of technology. Last time I felt that way with the iPhone I think. The prospect of no more gas and oil changes is great! Gas prices are so sensitive it seems. I feel blessed. It?s loads of fun. Elon Musk has a great thing going here. -Henry 

> On Mar 18, 2022, at 5:59 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> ?
> First off, subtract the oil that goes to uses other than gasoline.
> 
> Then deduct the portion going to other people (such as Europe, especially right now).
> 
> Then consider just how big our demand for/use of gasoline is.
> 
> Those three factors should explain most of the problem.  Corruption and other contributors are details by comparison.
> 
>> On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 2:44 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> Will someone explain to me how we can be in the top 5 oil producers in the world and not have enough gasoline?
>> 
>> Is it a problem with our refineries? I'll bet not. bill w
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sat Mar 19 02:47:39 2022
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 22:47:39 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Nobody knows the true colors of things,
 on this day of color.
In-Reply-To: <CA+BCJUiK9BUVtVxH2Rzt_wfLd1hT5ummnpmOBRAhRrnhj90cdA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7-onuUSiiJWLv10hREK_qgcrMbCN1zZH20QE6kkXNmxhBJUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaBwNZKTKrsfKC1Cr3+mxhbtn0kCG_yPT7CMW9ZkwNSjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWqwTzcRqMLZpC7Vq6NjKPku1ApMbjhsPp3g4bXA9TKmg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onsWQFQtLke6_ud3wd3oDmx4w-6jRGmGPsj=oS6EnRB9zA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkQuk2bjLNGfCbcYpQ_cu1osEZDAgRw0pXCw93mB_MMijg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onvhJdczGFOY01F9NVuGixfsOmGTgyYOYJokAEo_7qsybQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUiK9BUVtVxH2Rzt_wfLd1hT5ummnpmOBRAhRrnhj90cdA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFgp9X=Pb0E0uoOXL7TDzXzDJw4s7D8bc5r7so_Xwdy0LA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 8:12 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Are there infinitely possible primary colors, given there are infinitely
> many possible organizations of brains?
>
> There're colorblind people and most mammals with two primary colors,
> primates and fish with three, birds and some tetrachromat humans with four,
> and I think there's some shrimp with 16. If there's no fundamental limit to
> the number of primary colors a mind can perceive, then are primary colors
> physical/chemical/neurological properties, or are they
> logical/informational/mathematical properties? I lean towards the latter
> grouping.
>

### I thought about it too. If you redo the organization of color rosettes
in the occipital cortex you should be able to squeeze additional colors
into the perceived spectrum. You would also need to add bandwidth to the
subcortical structures and additional parallel color sensors if you wanted
the new perceived colors to correspond to specific features of the
environment. Obviously, yes, colors are concepts created by our brain to
label objects, so they are informational rather than simple physical. This
is not to say that informational means non-physical but rather
informational is complex physics that happens in computing devices compared
to simple physics that describes objects in general.

Rafal
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sat Mar 19 02:51:03 2022
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 22:51:03 -0400
Subject: [ExI] gas prices
In-Reply-To: <77FC5134-B93F-4C84-A18D-A37AD74D7B21@alumni.virginia.edu>
References: <CALAdGNRUR2d21r8myNbd8gHTrsQZDJ14uznPWv_yaXi0+X3yPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <77FC5134-B93F-4C84-A18D-A37AD74D7B21@alumni.virginia.edu>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFht_eZ46LPZ7ejb=zhG4H8O7mY8RnixHv=zqPc8zW4u_Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 10:47 PM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Hey everyone. Long time no-write.
>
> Not to hijack the thread, I wanted to briefly tell   Spike that I bought a
> Tesla this week! I recall him talking about Tesla?s in the past. I got a
> Model 3 Long Range Awd 2018. My high performance modified 2006 wrx sti blew
> the motor so I?m coming from a beast. The Tesla is not leaving me feeling
> deprived with 0-60 in 4 secs!! In silence except tire noise. It?s a full
> self-driving model. It will come pick me up when it?s parked so I don?t
> have to walk to it. I?ve never been more impressed with a vehicle or piece
> of technology. Last time I felt that way with the iPhone I think. The
> prospect of no more gas and oil changes is great! Gas prices are so
> sensitive it seems. I feel blessed. It?s loads of fun. Elon Musk has a
> great thing going here. -Henry
>


### Kudos.

I'm all-in on Tesla stock. My financial advisor would recoil in horror at
this level of concentration of investments, except I don't have a financial
advisor.

Rafal
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From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Sat Mar 19 03:09:12 2022
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 21:09:12 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Nobody knows the true colors of things,
 on this day of color.
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFgp9X=Pb0E0uoOXL7TDzXzDJw4s7D8bc5r7so_Xwdy0LA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7-onuUSiiJWLv10hREK_qgcrMbCN1zZH20QE6kkXNmxhBJUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaBwNZKTKrsfKC1Cr3+mxhbtn0kCG_yPT7CMW9ZkwNSjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWqwTzcRqMLZpC7Vq6NjKPku1ApMbjhsPp3g4bXA9TKmg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onsWQFQtLke6_ud3wd3oDmx4w-6jRGmGPsj=oS6EnRB9zA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkQuk2bjLNGfCbcYpQ_cu1osEZDAgRw0pXCw93mB_MMijg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onvhJdczGFOY01F9NVuGixfsOmGTgyYOYJokAEo_7qsybQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUiK9BUVtVxH2Rzt_wfLd1hT5ummnpmOBRAhRrnhj90cdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFgp9X=Pb0E0uoOXL7TDzXzDJw4s7D8bc5r7so_Xwdy0LA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-ons0B8xcoAre8ii5y2vxKS6TS50sA+55ChcYAZM2XhOqsw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Rafal,
So when you say "colors are concept created by our brain to label objects"

What do you mean by "label"?  As in, we label a redness quality,
representing knowledge of a strawberry as "red"
Or are you saying colorness qualities of our knowledge, which are
representing the properties of the surface of the strawberry, are labels of
something?


On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 8:52 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 8:12 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Are there infinitely possible primary colors, given there are infinitely
>> many possible organizations of brains?
>>
>> There're colorblind people and most mammals with two primary colors,
>> primates and fish with three, birds and some tetrachromat humans with four,
>> and I think there's some shrimp with 16. If there's no fundamental limit to
>> the number of primary colors a mind can perceive, then are primary colors
>> physical/chemical/neurological properties, or are they
>> logical/informational/mathematical properties? I lean towards the latter
>> grouping.
>>
>
> ### I thought about it too. If you redo the organization of color rosettes
> in the occipital cortex you should be able to squeeze additional colors
> into the perceived spectrum. You would also need to add bandwidth to the
> subcortical structures and additional parallel color sensors if you wanted
> the new perceived colors to correspond to specific features of the
> environment. Obviously, yes, colors are concepts created by our brain to
> label objects, so they are informational rather than simple physical. This
> is not to say that informational means non-physical but rather
> informational is complex physics that happens in computing devices compared
> to simple physics that describes objects in general.
>
> Rafal
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Mar 19 03:27:48 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 20:27:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] gas prices
In-Reply-To: <77FC5134-B93F-4C84-A18D-A37AD74D7B21@alumni.virginia.edu>
References: <CALAdGNRUR2d21r8myNbd8gHTrsQZDJ14uznPWv_yaXi0+X3yPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <77FC5134-B93F-4C84-A18D-A37AD74D7B21@alumni.virginia.edu>
Message-ID: <003601d83b41$4f54f330$edfed990$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Henry Rivera via extropy-chat
Sent: Friday, 18 March, 2022 7:46 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: Henry Rivera <hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu>
Subject: Re: [ExI] gas prices

 

Hey everyone. Long time no-write. 

 

>?Not to hijack the thread, I wanted to briefly tell   Spike that I bought a Tesla this week! I recall him talking about Tesla?s in the past. I got a Model 3 Long Range Awd 2018. My high performance modified 2006 wrx sti blew the motor so I?m coming from a beast. The Tesla is not leaving me feeling deprived with 0-60 in 4 secs!! In silence except tire noise. It?s a full self-driving model. It will come pick me up when it?s parked so I don?t have to walk to it. I?ve never been more impressed with a vehicle or piece of technology. Last time I felt that way with the iPhone I think. The prospect of no more gas and oil changes is great! Gas prices are so sensitive it seems. I feel blessed. It?s loads of fun. Elon Musk has a great thing going here. -Henry 

 

 

 

 

Cool Henry!  

 

I am a huge fan of Elon Musk.  I would urge him to run for POTUS were he eligible, or Peter Thiel, who is likewise ineligible.

 

Regarding Tesla: there are jillions of them whirring around here, and plenty of Tesla buyers are Tesla stock buyers, which is why we are seeing such marvelous prosperity around here.  A lot of the locals work at the Tesla factory, and I am cheering them in every way short of a poodle skirt and pom poms.  The fleet has really benefitted us here: our power prices have come down as we have found more efficient ways to utilize all that local wind power on Altamont Pass.

 

Reasoning: if you have flown across the USA, you have seen enormous wind farms where nearly all of the turbines are idle.  A few are spinning like crazy, but most are stopped, so you know there is wind.  There is just no demand.  It is better to either run those things at high speed or stop them.  So? wind farms, huge capital sitting there idle most of the time.  The big cost is not in generating the power, but in storing it.

 

But? if a lotta proles buy Teslas, then there is a good solid base load, which reduces the cost for everyone.  And furthermore? this is exactly the way I like to see development: paid for voluntarily by true believers.  My neighbor owns two high-end Teslas plus solar panels and a power wall, the latter being extremely cool: we all benefit from energy storage capacity, and even better if the proles pay for it themselves voluntarily rather than using tax dollars.  I am all for it.

 

Since you got me started on this subject, I thought I would share a fun little mechanical design project I have been working on: an internal combustion trailer to tow behind your Tesla if you want to do a cross country trip.

 

Before you laugh that off? think about it until you realize it makes perfect sense.  Charging stations are being built, but? electric cars take between 6 and 15 hours to charge, whereas dino-burners can be fueled in three minutes.  In the current situation, cross country trips in a Tesla just isn?t practical, however? if you do that a lot with your car, you could hitch up a gasoline (or possibly Diesel) generator, doesn?t need to be a big one, and charge as you go.

 

I did some calculations.  It is a mistake to look up the power use of a Tesla at freeway speeds (about 25-30 kw) then look for a generator to get that capacity, for the stationary generator has two capabilities you don?t need: it doesn?t need its own battery for starting and it doesn?t need to be able to generate power sitting still.  Any time this generator would run, it would have an air flow across it, so? that enable air cooling, which is simple, cheap and light.  It can even be optimized dimensionally, because it operates at a constant load and speed.  So? air cooling is not a big penalty, but it is a big cost and weight benefit.  

 

Bottom line: the trailer needed is low cost, and the entire rig is light weight enough one would never even know it was back there.

 

Elon of course will not even entertain the notion, as he hates internal combustion.  But I don?t.  I see it as a great complement to electric cars.  Most of the time you whir around in town, but occasionally you might want to do a cross country trip.  Hitch up your generator and go.

 

Henry don?t worry about hijacking threads.  Others can continue the discussion under the original subject line or refine and rename it if they wish.  Ideas are our friends.  Good ideas are our good friends.

 

Teslas are cool.  Buy em!

 

spike

 

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Mar 19 03:48:05 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 20:48:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] don't view it if you are serious
Message-ID: <005801d83b44$2463e110$6d2ba330$@rainier66.com>

 

 

Anyone in a serious mood, wanting real information, don?t watch it.  It has no significance, it?s just fun.  So don?t view it if you don?t want fun.

 

Otherwise?

 

https://twitter.com/i/status/1504620808328556563

 

s

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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sat Mar 19 04:34:38 2022
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 00:34:38 -0400
Subject: [ExI] gas prices
In-Reply-To: <003601d83b41$4f54f330$edfed990$@rainier66.com>
References: <CALAdGNRUR2d21r8myNbd8gHTrsQZDJ14uznPWv_yaXi0+X3yPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <77FC5134-B93F-4C84-A18D-A37AD74D7B21@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <003601d83b41$4f54f330$edfed990$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFjyhFdYfryK0homQ7esGrksALL8KJmt5Yb6nVkKJVyMMw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 11:29 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
> I did some calculations.  It is a mistake to look up the power use of a
> Tesla at freeway speeds (about 25-30 kw) then look for a generator to get
> that capacity, for the stationary generator has two capabilities you don?t
> need: it doesn?t need its own battery for starting and it doesn?t need to
> be able to generate power sitting still.  Any time this generator would
> run, it would have an air flow across it, so? that enable air cooling,
> which is simple, cheap and light.  It can even be optimized dimensionally,
> because it operates at a constant load and speed.  So? air cooling is not a
> big penalty, but it is a big cost and weight benefit.
>

### What about a drop-in range extender fitting into the trunk or frunk?

Makes air cooling more difficult and of course exhaust would require
installing a vent in the frunk cover and how do you wire it up to the car?
Tesla might be resistant to soiling their morally pure vehicles with the
ethical miasma of gasoline....

I think it would be a great idea if you could make it work.

Rafal
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sat Mar 19 04:39:05 2022
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 00:39:05 -0400
Subject: [ExI] gas prices
In-Reply-To: <003601d83b41$4f54f330$edfed990$@rainier66.com>
References: <CALAdGNRUR2d21r8myNbd8gHTrsQZDJ14uznPWv_yaXi0+X3yPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <77FC5134-B93F-4C84-A18D-A37AD74D7B21@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <003601d83b41$4f54f330$edfed990$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFhYvLrdAUp52jA=5TkaByGZdhE90HKoetAoLF9rRNYJxg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 11:29 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
> Teslas are cool.  Buy em!
>
>
>

### Tesla hybrid:

https://www.carscoops.com/2021/09/obrists-hyperhybrid-engine-turned-this-tesla-into-a-phev/
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Mar 19 05:23:40 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 22:23:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] gas prices
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFjyhFdYfryK0homQ7esGrksALL8KJmt5Yb6nVkKJVyMMw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNRUR2d21r8myNbd8gHTrsQZDJ14uznPWv_yaXi0+X3yPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <77FC5134-B93F-4C84-A18D-A37AD74D7B21@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <003601d83b41$4f54f330$edfed990$@rainier66.com>
 <CAAc1gFjyhFdYfryK0homQ7esGrksALL8KJmt5Yb6nVkKJVyMMw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003601d83b51$7ec50320$7c4f0960$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat
Sent: Friday, 18 March, 2022 9:35 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] gas prices

 

 

 

On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 11:29 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

 

 

I did some calculations.  It is a mistake to look up the power use of a Tesla at freeway speeds (about 25-30 kw) then look for a generator to get that capacity, for the stationary generator has two capabilities you don?t need: it doesn?t need its own battery for starting and it doesn?t need to be able to generate power sitting still.  Any time this generator would run, it would have an air flow across it, so? that enable air cooling, which is simple, cheap and light.  It can even be optimized dimensionally, because it operates at a constant load and speed.  So? air cooling is not a big penalty, but it is a big cost and weight benefit. 

 

### What about a drop-in range extender fitting into the trunk or frunk? Rafal

 

 

Hi Rafal, thanks for posting.  I thought of that and worked on it for a while but eventually calculated that there is not a practical way to dump the excess heat. Which is about 60 kW.  You would need some kind of external radiator and those rigs just don?t have a good place to put something like that.

 

I worked it a number of different ways and kept coming to the same conclusion: you need a radiator, a serious one, and it must be hard-mounted to the car, which means carrying the IC engine always (huge weight penalty (and visual penalty.))  

 

But how do we use our cars?  We occasionally go on cross country trips but not all that often.  If we recognize the obvious: the Tesla is not well suited for cross country trips but is great for the most common use for cars, then we have admitted the problem and made way for a good solution.

 

The towed gasoline or Diesel generator is not all that ugly as solutions go really.  I have seen worse than that.  Hell I have done worse than that.  But this notion isn?t as ugly as it sounds.  There is no need for the Tesla-ers (Tesla-ers?) to apologize.  The other Tesla-ers know exactly why they have that trailer back there.  They wish they had one.  Elon won?t like it, but we don?t work for him, he works for us.

 

Think of something we can relate to.  We know what a Harley Davidson looks like.  That?s a very simple pushrod V twin, air cooled, single throw crank.  A sportster engine without the integrated transmission would produce enough power, have ample lubrication and cooling, particularly if we turn it sideways, drive shaft in the direction of travel, so that both cylinders see plenty of air flow, air filter in front, drop the exhaust thru a big sturdy muffler such as on my old-time Lincoln Town Car.  The thing would be quiet enough, the other drivers wouldn?t even need to know it was running.  The Tesla-er wouldn?t feel the vibration or need to listen to the racket (if there is any) because it is outside and out back.

 

Last point: if we carry a gasoline engine always, we give away the engineering advantage of an all-electric.  If we make something that must be loaded, even a small generator is heavy as hell, much harder to handle than a small trailer, which is all this would need.  But an air cooled engine, sound suppression, about 80 gallon fuel tank (we don?t want to make the dignified Tesla-ers hafta fill up at a low-life gas station) and the whole rig would be easily handled (tongue weight about 40 pounds) by even a petite biological woman.

 

I am finding plenty of solutions where the whole rig comes in under 600 pounds without fuel, about a thousand pounds with fuel.  That is easily handled by one person.

 

spike

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From jasonresch at gmail.com  Sat Mar 19 15:09:38 2022
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 10:09:38 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Nobody knows the true colors of things,
 on this day of color.
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-ontJfEQsrrm54uw1HHU1v2wEeyBqcn+Y7Tegd7HLvghtOg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7-onuUSiiJWLv10hREK_qgcrMbCN1zZH20QE6kkXNmxhBJUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaBwNZKTKrsfKC1Cr3+mxhbtn0kCG_yPT7CMW9ZkwNSjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWqwTzcRqMLZpC7Vq6NjKPku1ApMbjhsPp3g4bXA9TKmg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onsWQFQtLke6_ud3wd3oDmx4w-6jRGmGPsj=oS6EnRB9zA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkQuk2bjLNGfCbcYpQ_cu1osEZDAgRw0pXCw93mB_MMijg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onvhJdczGFOY01F9NVuGixfsOmGTgyYOYJokAEo_7qsybQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUiK9BUVtVxH2Rzt_wfLd1hT5ummnpmOBRAhRrnhj90cdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-ontJfEQsrrm54uw1HHU1v2wEeyBqcn+Y7Tegd7HLvghtOg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+BCJUhoxp1QbYiOmtwtcw7m=ddROwLZzDf5vCmuDkTC=o_y1w@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 7:51 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> Hi Jason,
> logical/information/mathematical stuff is all abstract.
>

Yes, I believe consciousness lies in the abstract informational patterns
and relationships, not in any material component that may contribute to an
instantiation of that abstraction.


>   Like the word 'red' you can't know what it means, without a dictionary.
>

I don't think a dictionary, or any serialized information content for that
matter, is capable of communicating such quale as red. The foundation of
all meaning rests in ostensive definitions. Two civilizations belonging to
two different universes who could only communicate bits back and forth
would be unable to communicate the meaning of their units of measure for
distance, mass, or time. The meaning of a "meter" would be impossible to
communicate as we could do nothing to render it into terms meaningful for
those in the other universe. The same limitation exists between two
entities in two different simulated realities. And likewise, I think this
can explain the incommunicability of qualia between two minds, which are
similarly isolated and have no way to share properties internal to their
own mental worlds.


> Redness is just a physical fact. a property of something in nature.
>

Nature yes, but I would say physics is the wrong level to attempt a
description of it. It would be like trying to explain the operation of a
word processor at the level of electric fields in the semiconductors
composing a computer's memory and processor. I would also say, redness,
like pain, can be different things to different minds and creatures. Does a
colorblind person who can distinguish between red and green, but not blue
and yellow, experience red the same way a normally sighted person does?
Does someone with a higher ratio of red cone cells experience red in the
same way as someone with a lower ratio? I would say redness (in terms of
the experience) has very little to do with physics and everything to do
with minds.


> It is simply a fact that your brain uses whatever has that redness quality
> to represent your knowledge of red things with.
>

Computers represent everything on your screen right now (buttons, cursor
position, pixels, sounds, the time, the software of your e-mail client,
etc.) with just two symbols. Likewise, the optic nerve does not send
"redness" from your eye to your visual cortex, it sends what are just "dots
and dashes" timed pulses of neurons spiking, "ones and zeros", "bits". This
signal is all your brain needs and all it uses to create the experience of
red. The important quality of these pulses is that they can form different
patterns which can be distinguished.


> Your redness is your definition of red.
> The limiting factor is how many intrinsic coolness qualities we can
> discover in nature.
>

We know there are a countably infinite number of unique computer programs,
each of which can be provided with a countably infinite number of different
possible inputs. Across these infinite programs, every computable relation,
data structure, knowledge state, information state, and I would say
conscious state, could be found. Physics then, would have nothing to do
with it, as in any physical universe where it is possible to build a
computer, it would be possible to instantiate any conscious state.


> Let's assume there is a new coolness quality we discover which nobody has
> ever experienced before.  let's call it Grue.
> Then we can computationally bind it into your consciousness.
> Then we throw the switch, at which point you say: "oh THAT is what Grue is
> like" and you  now have your dictionary for 'Grue'.
> Then you augment your eye to detect the new wavelength you want to
> represent with Grue, and wire it up to represent information collected
> about that particular wavelength.
>
>
>
This has actually been done for monkeys:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/09/090916133521.htm

My question is: is there any limit to the number of primary colors that in
principle could be perceived by a conscious mind, or are there infinitely
many distinct primary colors? The experiment with the monkeys suggests if
we insert a new functional capacity into the retina, such that it sends a
more complex signal to the visual cortex, the visual cortex, within a few
weeks, develops new processing structures capable of differentiating and
distinguishing new colors which previously could not be distinguished.

Jason


>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 6:11 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Are there infinitely possible primary colors, given there are infinitely
>> many possible organizations of brains?
>>
>> There're colorblind people and most mammals with two primary colors,
>> primates and fish with three, birds and some tetrachromat humans with four,
>> and I think there's some shrimp with 16. If there's no fundamental limit to
>> the number of primary colors a mind can perceive, then are primary colors
>> physical/chemical/neurological properties, or are they
>> logical/informational/mathematical properties? I lean towards the latter
>> grouping.
>>
>> Jason
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 18, 2022, 7:50 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Darin,
>>>
>>> When say "colors" are you talking about properties of things that
>>> reflect a particular pattern of light, the properties of the light, or the
>>> intrinsic qualities you brain uses to represent conscious knowledge of red
>>> things?  All very different things.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 18, 2022, 4:17 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> All objects with a specific property are made of arrangements of things
>>>> that lack that property.
>>>>
>>>> Colors are formed by particular arrangements of atoms and particles
>>>> that are intrinsically colorless.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 4:09 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, any language that uses only one abstract word, for everything
>>>>> that represents 'red' makes that language qualia blind  or unable to
>>>>> represent different intrinsic physical qualities which may be representing
>>>>> red.
>>>>> All of our peer reviewed physics, in it's entirety does this. so none
>>>>> of it can model different qualities like redness and greenness.
>>>>> That is why we use the term 'redness' or colorness intrinsic
>>>>> qualities, to distinguish from red and color intrinsic qualities.
>>>>> Something is 'red' if it reflects or emits red light, it has a color.
>>>>> Redness, is something entirely different, it is a colorness quality.
>>>>> An intrinsic quality out of which your consciousness is composed.
>>>>>
>>>>> A big part of consciousness is the ability to computationally bind
>>>>> elemental qualities like redness and greenness together, to enabl3e
>>>>> computation like: I (represented by something in your brain) intend to eat
>>>>> that strawberry, represented by redness quality, also in your brain.
>>>>>
>>>>> Adrian claimed my definition is circular.
>>>>>
>>>>> No it isn't circular.  If we experimentally demonstrated that our
>>>>> description of glutamate, reacting in a synapse, is your redness, and
>>>>> glycine is your greenness, then these would be saying the same thing.
>>>>>
>>>>> objective version:  My glutamate knowledge is like your
>>>>> glycine knowledge, both of which we call red.
>>>>> Subjective version: My redness knowledge is like your greenness
>>>>> knowledge, both of which we call red.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just because our brain seems be gray (we represent out knowledge of it
>>>>> with something that has a greyness quality) doesn't mean al that stuff is
>>>>> actually gray.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Another important part of all this, is there are two ways to gain
>>>>> knowledge.
>>>>> We can see colors, (can be mistaken, if you get the dictionary wrong)
>>>>> and we directly apprehend colorness qualities (can't be mistaken),
>>>>> representing our knowledge of colored things, the final result of color
>>>>> perception.
>>>>> For more detail see our Distinguishing between reality and knowledge
>>>>> of reality
>>>>> <https://canonizer.com/videos/consciousness/?chapter=differentiate_reality_knowledge>
>>>>> chapter of our video.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 3:48 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 at 08:38, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think that what you see is what you get and that there is no
>>>>>>> intrinsic color of anything.  I don't even know what intrinsic means in
>>>>>>> this context.   bill w
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think Brent means the experience of the colour, or colour qualia,
>>>>>> as opposed to description of the processes that lead to the experience.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 4:21 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Happy color festival, everyone.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Do you guys realize, nobody knows the true intrinsic color of
>>>>>>>> anything?  All we know is the colors things seem to be.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> See my answer to a question on color on Quora.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> P.S.  Thank you Stathis, for your upvote.  That is HUGE for me.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Stathis Papaioannou
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Mar 19 15:12:25 2022
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 10:12:25 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Nobody knows the true colors of things,
 on this day of color.
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSV=s9SEFb4Oh0HbAzJy1uRA-Gk6dd830Z_YTP1UhS5jg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7-onuUSiiJWLv10hREK_qgcrMbCN1zZH20QE6kkXNmxhBJUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaBwNZKTKrsfKC1Cr3+mxhbtn0kCG_yPT7CMW9ZkwNSjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWqwTzcRqMLZpC7Vq6NjKPku1ApMbjhsPp3g4bXA9TKmg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSV=s9SEFb4Oh0HbAzJy1uRA-Gk6dd830Z_YTP1UhS5jg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEb-7-xEt_NM9zF1OA3uVqDU842WJP4KxRH4_X8wwiMPwg@mail.gmail.com>

An "intrinsic" property of an object does not depend on how it is
perceived.   adrian

How can there be a property of something that does not depend on our
perception of it?  I think that what something is is dependent on what we
think it is, and that can change, like our perception of tomatoes re toxic
property.  In other words, our perceptions define the  property.  As to
what it 'really' is opens the bag of worms of what reality is and can we
perceive it.   bill w

On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 6:15 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 2:49 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 at 08:38, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I think that what you see is what you get and that there is no intrinsic
>>> color of anything.  I don't even know what intrinsic means in this
>>> context.   bill w
>>>
>>
>> I think Brent means the experience of the colour, or colour qualia, as
>> opposed to description of the processes that lead to the experience.
>>
>
> Which is part of my problem with that definition.  An "intrinsic" property
> of an object does not depend on how it is perceived.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Mar 19 16:51:33 2022
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 09:51:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Nobody knows the true colors of things,
 on this day of color.
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEb-7-xEt_NM9zF1OA3uVqDU842WJP4KxRH4_X8wwiMPwg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7-onuUSiiJWLv10hREK_qgcrMbCN1zZH20QE6kkXNmxhBJUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaBwNZKTKrsfKC1Cr3+mxhbtn0kCG_yPT7CMW9ZkwNSjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWqwTzcRqMLZpC7Vq6NjKPku1ApMbjhsPp3g4bXA9TKmg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSV=s9SEFb4Oh0HbAzJy1uRA-Gk6dd830Z_YTP1UhS5jg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEb-7-xEt_NM9zF1OA3uVqDU842WJP4KxRH4_X8wwiMPwg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSp0JE7d9=WGo2UixHjB7odycQUU2ZkxpmpyLCGdg=DpA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 19, 2022 at 8:17 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> An "intrinsic" property of an object does not depend on how it is
> perceived.   adrian
>
> How can there be a property of something that does not depend on our
> perception of it?
>

By existing independent of whether we perceive it.

If a tomato reflects photons of a wavelength in the red range and no other
photons out of a white range of photons, but those particular photons all
fall on the ground, nearby plants, or other things that are neither eyes
nor cameras, it has still reflected only those photons out of a white range
of photons and is thus still red.


> I think that what something is is dependent on what we think it is
>

You may think that, but it is incorrect.  There are a lot of people wishing
really hard about certain aspects of the world - certain measurable aspects
of the war in Ukraine come to mind.  Literally, they are trying to think of
it as something other than what it is, in the sense of "what we think it
is" that you meant.  As can be easily observed in many cases, they are
having no effect on what it is.
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Sat Mar 19 18:37:34 2022
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 11:37:34 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Nobody knows the true colors of things,
 on this day of color.
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onuUSiiJWLv10hREK_qgcrMbCN1zZH20QE6kkXNmxhBJUQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7-onuUSiiJWLv10hREK_qgcrMbCN1zZH20QE6kkXNmxhBJUQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <159D3D20-5FA2-414E-B31C-4D140ACB008A@gmail.com>

Has anyone here read Michael Watkins 2002 book Rediscovering Colors: A Study in Pollyanna Realism?

Abstract:

?In Rediscovering Colors: A Study in Pollyanna Realism, Michael Watkins endorses the Moorean view that colors are simple, non-reducible, properties of objects. Consequently, Watkins breaks from what has become the received view that either colors are reducible to certain properties of interest to science, or else nothing is really colored. What is novel about the work is that Watkins, unlike other Mooreans, takes seriously the metaphysics of colors. Consequently, Watkins provides an account of what colors are, how they are related to the physical properties on which they supervene, and how colors can be causally efficacious without the threat of causal overdetermination. Along the way, he provides novel accounts of normal conditions and non-human color properties. The book will be of interest to any metaphysician and philosopher of mind interested in colors and color perception.?

I haven?t finished reading it, so no further comment at this time.

Regards,

Dan

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Mar 19 19:22:53 2022
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 14:22:53 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Nobody knows the true colors of things,
 on this day of color.
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSp0JE7d9=WGo2UixHjB7odycQUU2ZkxpmpyLCGdg=DpA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7-onuUSiiJWLv10hREK_qgcrMbCN1zZH20QE6kkXNmxhBJUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaBwNZKTKrsfKC1Cr3+mxhbtn0kCG_yPT7CMW9ZkwNSjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWqwTzcRqMLZpC7Vq6NjKPku1ApMbjhsPp3g4bXA9TKmg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSV=s9SEFb4Oh0HbAzJy1uRA-Gk6dd830Z_YTP1UhS5jg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEb-7-xEt_NM9zF1OA3uVqDU842WJP4KxRH4_X8wwiMPwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSp0JE7d9=WGo2UixHjB7odycQUU2ZkxpmpyLCGdg=DpA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZ+pc_Oqg=vWvAFerCLsiYEJ=2qu2QgkK3V_xVFP6vDOw@mail.gmail.com>

In some cases, perception is everything.  If I think the war is a great
success for RUssia and you think that it is a great tragedy, who's right?
You can't say that it is what it is because it isn't anything without
someone's perception.  Baseball play  "I'm safe. "   catcher  "He's out."
ump "He ain't nothing until I call it.  He's out!"

But if I say the Moon is made of green cheese, that's testable and not
defined by our perception.  Sometimes there is no reality except what the
person's perception says it is.  "I was being chased by a ghost."  His
reality; his perception.  bill w

On Sat, Mar 19, 2022 at 11:53 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Sat, Mar 19, 2022 at 8:17 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> An "intrinsic" property of an object does not depend on how it is
>> perceived.   adrian
>>
>> How can there be a property of something that does not depend on our
>> perception of it?
>>
>
> By existing independent of whether we perceive it.
>
> If a tomato reflects photons of a wavelength in the red range and no other
> photons out of a white range of photons, but those particular photons all
> fall on the ground, nearby plants, or other things that are neither eyes
> nor cameras, it has still reflected only those photons out of a white range
> of photons and is thus still red.
>
>
>> I think that what something is is dependent on what we think it is
>>
>
> You may think that, but it is incorrect.  There are a lot of people
> wishing really hard about certain aspects of the world - certain measurable
> aspects of the war in Ukraine come to mind.  Literally, they are trying to
> think of it as something other than what it is, in the sense of "what we
> think it is" that you meant.  As can be easily observed in many cases, they
> are having no effect on what it is.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Mar 19 19:57:27 2022
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 14:57:27 -0500
Subject: [ExI] perception is reality - examples
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaYoZ+X+1=JiZ=g0uBW=BhqU7DV9iZvTtfvpCeB9DHYxQ@mail.gmail.com>

Much of our experience consists of realities that we create.  Think of
tastes:  music, food, fashion.

When we think of something as beautiful, tasty, chic, our perception IS the
reality.  Others' perceptions are, of course, often different.  Thinking of
ways to test the realities is just stupid.  They are what they are, and
like any perceptions, they can change.

Me - "Dad - fat is gross, yucky"  Dad, putting a piece of steak with
notable fat on it in his mouth  "The fat's where the flavor is."  Now I
know that is true.  Also, now sardines are not yucky either.  But boiled
okra still is.  OK in gumbo, though.  bill w
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From sparge at gmail.com  Sat Mar 19 20:22:23 2022
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave S)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 16:22:23 -0400
Subject: [ExI] perception is reality - examples
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaYoZ+X+1=JiZ=g0uBW=BhqU7DV9iZvTtfvpCeB9DHYxQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaYoZ+X+1=JiZ=g0uBW=BhqU7DV9iZvTtfvpCeB9DHYxQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2eemuu9xP5kakDCnhMXA0UZ6Q34+3Ap2TS-18eiYZoF7w@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 19, 2022 at 3:59 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Much of our experience consists of realities that we create.  Think of
> tastes:  music, food, fashion.
>

You're talking about opinions, not physical properties like mass, location,
velocity, color, density, etc. Physical properties aren't dependent upon
perception. A million people could say that an object weighs 1 pound, but
that doesn't affect the actual weight of the object.

-Dave
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From jasonresch at gmail.com  Sat Mar 19 20:51:31 2022
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 16:51:31 -0400
Subject: [ExI] perception is reality - examples
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2eemuu9xP5kakDCnhMXA0UZ6Q34+3Ap2TS-18eiYZoF7w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaYoZ+X+1=JiZ=g0uBW=BhqU7DV9iZvTtfvpCeB9DHYxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2eemuu9xP5kakDCnhMXA0UZ6Q34+3Ap2TS-18eiYZoF7w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+BCJUi6fP__mCN5iATySx0bjnbOZ6XbnT+OrP81gjKR2GyW6g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 19, 2022, 4:23 PM Dave S via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Sat, Mar 19, 2022 at 3:59 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Much of our experience consists of realities that we create.  Think of
>> tastes:  music, food, fashion.
>>
>
> You're talking about opinions, not physical properties like mass,
> location, velocity, color, density, etc. Physical properties aren't
> dependent upon perception. A million people could say that an object weighs
> 1 pound, but that doesn't affect the actual weight of the object.
>

I'm not sure about that. If no conscious beings lived in this universe,
then this universe could only be viewed from the vantage point of conscious
observers in some other universe, and then this universe we are in would be
only an abstract object from such a perspective.

As an abstract object, those conscious observers in that other universe
could say nothing of our universe's location, it's mass, or the masses if
items inside it, velocities of things in our universe, durations of time,
lengths of distances, etc. So in a sense, these physical properties are
dependent on being directly perceived by beings within the universe. When
the universe lacks shared first person plural perspectives, it becomes only
an abstract object which at best can only be described mathematically as
some static four dimensional structure.

Jason


> -Dave
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Sat Mar 19 22:48:46 2022
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 15:48:46 -0700
Subject: [ExI] perception is reality - examples
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaYoZ+X+1=JiZ=g0uBW=BhqU7DV9iZvTtfvpCeB9DHYxQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaYoZ+X+1=JiZ=g0uBW=BhqU7DV9iZvTtfvpCeB9DHYxQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ECBDAC72-440E-4D60-990E-AF534A7B835C@gmail.com>

I think one has to separate between perceptual qualities and reactions to perceptual qualities. Two people midget agree that Ralph?s hair is pink but disagree on whether they like his hair being pink.

Even professional taste testers tend to use neutral language like ?has tomato complex taste? rather than saying ?it?s gross? or ?I can eat this until I puke.? ;)

This isn't to say there?s no relativity in perception, but to separate out the different aspects of it.

Regards,

Dan

> On Mar 19, 2022, at 12:59 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> ?
> Much of our experience consists of realities that we create.  Think of tastes:  music, food, fashion.
> 
> When we think of something as beautiful, tasty, chic, our perception IS the reality.  Others' perceptions are, of course, often different.  Thinking of ways to test the realities is just stupid.  They are what they are, and like any perceptions, they can change.  
> 
> Me - "Dad - fat is gross, yucky"  Dad, putting a piece of steak with notable fat on it in his mouth  "The fat's where the flavor is."  Now I know that is true.  Also, now sardines are not yucky either.  But boiled okra still is.  OK in gumbo, though.  bill w
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Mar 19 23:20:38 2022
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 23:20:38 +0000
Subject: [ExI] perception is reality - examples
In-Reply-To: <CA+BCJUi6fP__mCN5iATySx0bjnbOZ6XbnT+OrP81gjKR2GyW6g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaYoZ+X+1=JiZ=g0uBW=BhqU7DV9iZvTtfvpCeB9DHYxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2eemuu9xP5kakDCnhMXA0UZ6Q34+3Ap2TS-18eiYZoF7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUi6fP__mCN5iATySx0bjnbOZ6XbnT+OrP81gjKR2GyW6g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhQeviJ8GJkU0gm8N_OYpD1Hr0GTP1pXCJ4FNWwwW94Pg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 at 20:53, Jason Resch via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> As an abstract object, those conscious observers in that other universe could say nothing of our universe's location, it's mass, or the masses if items inside it, velocities of things in our universe, durations of time, lengths of distances, etc. So in a sense, these physical properties are dependent on being directly perceived by beings within the universe. When the universe lacks shared first person plural perspectives, it becomes only an abstract object which at best can only be described mathematically as some static four dimensional structure.
>
> Jason
> _______________________________________________


Well, our universe grew and existed for billions of years before life
appeared. It certainly possessed many varied physical properties
before there was a living observer. The universe had to develop and
change its physical properties in order to create an environment where
life could appear. It managed to do this just fine without a living
observer to perceive what it was doing.  :)


BillK


From jasonresch at gmail.com  Sun Mar 20 00:47:28 2022
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 20:47:28 -0400
Subject: [ExI] perception is reality - examples
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhQeviJ8GJkU0gm8N_OYpD1Hr0GTP1pXCJ4FNWwwW94Pg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaYoZ+X+1=JiZ=g0uBW=BhqU7DV9iZvTtfvpCeB9DHYxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2eemuu9xP5kakDCnhMXA0UZ6Q34+3Ap2TS-18eiYZoF7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUi6fP__mCN5iATySx0bjnbOZ6XbnT+OrP81gjKR2GyW6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhQeviJ8GJkU0gm8N_OYpD1Hr0GTP1pXCJ4FNWwwW94Pg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+BCJUjVjP9dornJBb_zswJPpYXrKyX0qtY7reaW1a7JTaByjQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 19, 2022, 7:22 PM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 at 20:53, Jason Resch via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > As an abstract object, those conscious observers in that other universe
> could say nothing of our universe's location, it's mass, or the masses if
> items inside it, velocities of things in our universe, durations of time,
> lengths of distances, etc. So in a sense, these physical properties are
> dependent on being directly perceived by beings within the universe. When
> the universe lacks shared first person plural perspectives, it becomes only
> an abstract object which at best can only be described mathematically as
> some static four dimensional structure.
> >
> > Jason
> > _______________________________________________
>
>
> Well, our universe grew and existed for billions of years before life
> appeared. It certainly possessed many varied physical properties
> before there was a living observer. The universe had to develop and
> change its physical properties in order to create an environment where
> life could appear. It managed to do this just fine without a living
> observer to perceive what it was doing.  :)
>


Of course. All I am saying is that the physical properties like mass, time,
length, etc. are not entirely objective, but require intersubjective
agreement of observers within a universe. And those values remain
meaningless to any observers outside that universe.

It is like asking "how many inches long is a flier in the Game if Life
universe?", Or "how many minutes does it take a flier to traverse twenty
squares?"

There is no meaning to physical units of measure between different,
causally separated universes.

Jason
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sun Mar 20 03:58:20 2022
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 23:58:20 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Nobody knows the true colors of things,
 on this day of color.
In-Reply-To: <159D3D20-5FA2-414E-B31C-4D140ACB008A@gmail.com>
References: <CAK7-onuUSiiJWLv10hREK_qgcrMbCN1zZH20QE6kkXNmxhBJUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <159D3D20-5FA2-414E-B31C-4D140ACB008A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFgDxHrCUa1c5kzsQaHMopK=U5S3qt2pEXC4JtHLiNvjBA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 19, 2022 at 2:39 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

Michael Watkins endorses the Moorean view that colors are simple,
> non-reducible, properties of objects.


### This is silly. If somebody is colorfully hallucinating, which object's
colors is he perceiving? If I press on my eye at night I can trigger the
perception of phosphenes (have you done? try it, just a little pressure on
the eye through the eyelids will create moving greenish rings). Is this
greenish color the color of my eyes? My fingers? My eyelids? Other objects?

Rafal
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sun Mar 20 04:35:28 2022
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 00:35:28 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Lux Aeterna
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFgY3teZBH6x3kTgKMfTavyyn+h08m=Pu3mDFCrABfprnA@mail.gmail.com>

In the beginning, there was no light. Particles and fields of gargantuan
energies swirled through the early universe, then cooled into a featureless
gas. A sleet of photons from the first titanic, hypergiant stars ionized
the now interstellar medium but still there was no light. Generations of
stars passed and created lifeless planets in the harsh radiation but there
was no light. Small creatures then evolved and detected data describing
their environment through their early eyes, connected to insensate brains
but there was still no light. All was indeterminate, neither bright nor
dim, under the photons of the Cambrian sun.

Then one million years or so, sufficiently aware creatures arose and made
light happen out of neural impulses. Then ever more complex data processing
evolved, bringing color, warmth, love and hatred into the world. And now we
are here. *We* paint the stars on the firmament every night. *We* make the
Sun shine by casting a glance at it. *We* paint the rose red!

Plato was wrong. We do not live in a cave, dimly perceiving shadows of
truth. It is us who imbue truth with meaning. *We* give sound to the
falling tree.

*We* are the true source of light!
-- 
Rafal Smigrodzki, MD-PhD
Schuyler Biotech PLLC
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sun Mar 20 05:07:48 2022
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 01:07:48 -0400
Subject: [ExI] gas prices
In-Reply-To: <003601d83b51$7ec50320$7c4f0960$@rainier66.com>
References: <CALAdGNRUR2d21r8myNbd8gHTrsQZDJ14uznPWv_yaXi0+X3yPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <77FC5134-B93F-4C84-A18D-A37AD74D7B21@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <003601d83b41$4f54f330$edfed990$@rainier66.com>
 <CAAc1gFjyhFdYfryK0homQ7esGrksALL8KJmt5Yb6nVkKJVyMMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <003601d83b51$7ec50320$7c4f0960$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFiHFXDuoKOWGKxryJyshF-CHjyM9VB58M9jyLQ+gUUXEg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 19, 2022 at 1:23 AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

> ### What about a drop-in range extender fitting into the trunk or
> frunk? Rafal
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Rafal, thanks for posting.  I thought of that and worked on it for a
> while but eventually calculated that there is not a practical way to dump
> the excess heat. Which is about 60 kW.
>
>
>
> I am finding plenty of solutions where the whole rig comes in under 600
> pounds without fuel, about a thousand pounds with fuel.  That is easily
> handled by one person.
>

### You do have a point. A drop-in generator would have to be comparably
wimpy and would still be hard to handle.... but the range-extended Tesla
does not need to drive fast. All it needs is the peace of mind as you
trundle to the nearest megacharger at a steady 50 mph. How many kW is that
for a Model 3 running on flat road in windless conditions with no AC? Quora
says about 4.5 kW. 60kW and 1000 lb worth of generator sounds like an
enormous overkill. My 13 kW house generator weighs 400 lb as a stationary
device that's intended to be too heavy to vibrate, so a much smaller car
generator should weigh a fraction. And it's OK to refill out of a Jerry-Can
every 50 miles or so. Sure, going uphill in winter at night upwind might be
a bit of a problem.... but think about how much of the planet you would
avoid killing!

Plus, the drop in generator would be hidden with only an innocuous-looking
gas vent to betray your wickedness. How would you live down the shame if
the modern Mrs Grundy saw you pulling a planet-killer behind your car?

Rafal
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Mar 20 07:19:31 2022
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 00:19:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Nobody knows the true colors of things,
 on this day of color.
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFgDxHrCUa1c5kzsQaHMopK=U5S3qt2pEXC4JtHLiNvjBA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7-onuUSiiJWLv10hREK_qgcrMbCN1zZH20QE6kkXNmxhBJUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <159D3D20-5FA2-414E-B31C-4D140ACB008A@gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFgDxHrCUa1c5kzsQaHMopK=U5S3qt2pEXC4JtHLiNvjBA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQ4mScqibHQzaPS+ZvuKbcK2Vyg7DsqmY22H6jfViWqYg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 19, 2022 at 9:00 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Sat, Mar 19, 2022 at 2:39 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Michael Watkins endorses the Moorean view that colors are simple,
>> non-reducible, properties of objects.
>
>
> ### This is silly. If somebody is colorfully hallucinating, which object's
> colors is he perceiving?
>

Objects that may or may not actually exist.  If someone perceives objects
that do not exist, their colors are not necessarily correlated to objects
that do exist.
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From jasonresch at gmail.com  Sun Mar 20 13:27:03 2022
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 09:27:03 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Lux Aeterna
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFgY3teZBH6x3kTgKMfTavyyn+h08m=Pu3mDFCrABfprnA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFgY3teZBH6x3kTgKMfTavyyn+h08m=Pu3mDFCrABfprnA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+BCJUjoVPbP05=Yed19Nzo_jp4KyBPsEGVXuU1QE+b-L6rt4Q@mail.gmail.com>

Beautifully written!

Jason


On Sun, Mar 20, 2022, 12:36 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> In the beginning, there was no light. Particles and fields of gargantuan
> energies swirled through the early universe, then cooled into a featureless
> gas. A sleet of photons from the first titanic, hypergiant stars ionized
> the now interstellar medium but still there was no light. Generations of
> stars passed and created lifeless planets in the harsh radiation but there
> was no light. Small creatures then evolved and detected data describing
> their environment through their early eyes, connected to insensate brains
> but there was still no light. All was indeterminate, neither bright nor
> dim, under the photons of the Cambrian sun.
>
> Then one million years or so, sufficiently aware creatures arose and made
> light happen out of neural impulses. Then ever more complex data processing
> evolved, bringing color, warmth, love and hatred into the world. And now we
> are here. *We* paint the stars on the firmament every night. *We* make the
> Sun shine by casting a glance at it. *We* paint the rose red!
>
> Plato was wrong. We do not live in a cave, dimly perceiving shadows of
> truth. It is us who imbue truth with meaning. *We* give sound to the
> falling tree.
>
> *We* are the true source of light!
> --
> Rafal Smigrodzki, MD-PhD
> Schuyler Biotech PLLC
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Mar 20 14:18:58 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 07:18:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] gas prices
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFiHFXDuoKOWGKxryJyshF-CHjyM9VB58M9jyLQ+gUUXEg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNRUR2d21r8myNbd8gHTrsQZDJ14uznPWv_yaXi0+X3yPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <77FC5134-B93F-4C84-A18D-A37AD74D7B21@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <003601d83b41$4f54f330$edfed990$@rainier66.com>
 <CAAc1gFjyhFdYfryK0homQ7esGrksALL8KJmt5Yb6nVkKJVyMMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <003601d83b51$7ec50320$7c4f0960$@rainier66.com>
 <CAAc1gFiHFXDuoKOWGKxryJyshF-CHjyM9VB58M9jyLQ+gUUXEg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009801d83c65$7177cdf0$546769d0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat
Sent: Saturday, 19 March, 2022 10:08 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] gas prices

 

 

 

On Sat, Mar 19, 2022 at 1:23 AM <spike at rainier66.com <mailto:spike at rainier66.com> > wrote:

### What about a drop-in range extender fitting into the trunk or frunk? Rafal

 

 

Hi Rafal, thanks for posting.  I thought of that and worked on it for a while but eventually calculated that there is not a practical way to dump the excess heat. Which is about 60 kW.  

 

I am finding plenty of solutions where the whole rig comes in under 600 pounds without fuel, about a thousand pounds with fuel.  That is easily handled by one person.

 

>?### You do have a point. A drop-in generator would have to be comparably wimpy and would still be hard to handle.... but the range-extended Tesla does not need to drive fast. All it needs is the peace of mind as you trundle to the nearest megacharger at a steady 50 mph?

 

Hi Rafal, 

 

I sized the generator at 20 kW.  The excess heat you need to dump is about triple the output of the IC/generator combination, after you account for the heat generated by the gasoline motor and generator.  That is where the 60 kW number came from.  A steady 75 on the freeway with AC or heater, accounting for the extra drag by the trailer gets you to about 20 kW power requirement which gets you to about 60 kW heat rejection requirement.

 

>?How many kW is that for a Model 3 running on flat road in windless conditions with no AC?

 

No Model 3, we are talking S here.  The S is a bit more sincere in the power department, a lot more, but of course it is also heavier.  As an engineering exercise, we assume worst case conditions likely to be encountered in use, so we are talking S.

 

>? Quora says about 4.5 kW. 60kW and 1000 lb worth of generator sounds like an enormous overkill. My 13 kW house generator weighs 400 lb as a stationary device that's intended to be too heavy to vibrate?

 

You would be surprised at how much your 13 vibrates if you have a means to measure it.  But you can?t run that (or any other small generator) in any small enclosed space.  It needs room to breathe.  The closest you will find is a generator they use for RVs, but those also need to breathe and they don?t generate enough power.  The 1000 pound estimate accounts for the trailer, the air-cooled IC, additional sound suppression, the generator, the rectifier and about 60-70 gallons of fuel needed to run a good coupla days under worst-case conditions, three under more ideal conditions.

 

>? so a much smaller car generator should weigh a fraction. And it's OK to refill out of a Jerry-Can every 50 miles or so?

 

It does.  But it doesn?t make enough power.  Those Teslas don?t have enough cargo room (they aren?t designed to be cross country runners.)  So if I were building a generator trailer, I would leave enough room to tie on a coupla suit cases, or four good sized ones probably, or a cooler and a coupla good sizes cases.  I wouldn?t build something like this to be inadequate for a high-speed cross country run.  Teslas cost a lotta money and are kinda overkilly in many areas, so? in keeping with that attitude, model S with all the trimmings, towed generator coming in at about 1000 pounds.

 

>? Sure, going uphill in winter at night upwind might be a bit of a problem...

 

Ja, heating in the Tesla is all electric resistance, which is a huge power eater compared to the heating in a gasoline car, which is free: it uses the waste heat from the cooling system.  The Tesla is one to one: every kW you dump in the passenger compartment comes off of the battery.

 

>?but think about how much of the planet you would avoid killing!

 

I do!  Recall the way the Tesla is used: you only go on cross country trips once in a long while for most of us.  The rest of the time you are whirring around town, not burning gasoline at all.  Tesla drivers burn only coal and natural gas, with about 14% wind and solar.

 

>?Plus, the drop in generator would be hidden with only an innocuous-looking gas vent to betray your wickedness?

 

Eh, no.  If you are going to run that generator, you need a lot of air circulation with probably an external radiator, which is why you never see a gasoline car without one.  They all have those ugly aerodynamically dirty radiators up front, something the Tesla doesn?t have.

 

>? How would you live down the shame if the modern Mrs Grundy saw you pulling a planet-killer behind your car?

 

Rafal

 

Ah glad you asked.  If one is a clever designer, it wouldn?t be obvious that you were hauling a dinosaur burner back there.  I included some weight for a sincere sound-suppression system, which would be about 40 pounds.  Since the rig would only run while you are underway (air-cooled engine would have inadequate cooling for stationary use) the tire noise would cover the suppressed racket.  If one wanted to take it to a kind of silly extreme, a fuel tank could be dressed up to look like a two really big suitcases or a toolbox.  Even the filler could be stealth-ized if you wanted to, but I am good at living down shame.  The other Tesla-ers would know what you are doing and understand.  I don?t want to spend 100k on a car that isn?t practical for cross country runs.

 

spike

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From zoielsoy at gmail.com  Sun Mar 20 17:03:51 2022
From: zoielsoy at gmail.com (Angel Z. Lopez)
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 13:03:51 -0400
Subject: [ExI] gas prices
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbpptdapGWAcxPH-F+Q4ZvfsyTkd-Xi9B1fehwv0Piccg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbpptdapGWAcxPH-F+Q4ZvfsyTkd-Xi9B1fehwv0Piccg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALHxhTTjWNdtpGuSCUdhmNYQwXoD-wO7C89JVSL=kkw08y-LtA@mail.gmail.com>

We have reserves all over the world. The facts have not become apparent
yet, but they are preparing for some type of collapse. The first stage is
to train people to expect the worse?

On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 5:44 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Will someone explain to me how we can be in the top 5 oil producers in the
> world and not have enough gasoline?
>
> Is it a problem with our refineries? I'll bet not. bill w
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Sun Mar 20 20:19:22 2022
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 14:19:22 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Nobody knows the true colors of things,
 on this day of color.
In-Reply-To: <159D3D20-5FA2-414E-B31C-4D140ACB008A@gmail.com>
References: <CAK7-onuUSiiJWLv10hREK_qgcrMbCN1zZH20QE6kkXNmxhBJUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <159D3D20-5FA2-414E-B31C-4D140ACB008A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-ontKFNCfZmA-yxhCtUO9RRStkfGMpmHWaQqSfgyCNVVOwA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Dan, It looks like I may  have failed to include the link to the actual
answer?:
https://www.quora.com/How-does-the-brain-create-colour-How-would-you-explain-colour-to-a-blind-person/answer/Brent-Allsop-1
And as you can see, the first paragraph proves this kind of Naive Realism
view can't be true, for who's redness would be the property of the
strawberry?
Also, the book summary talked about how qualia: " are related to the
physical properties on which they supervene".
However if qualia supervene on something, then the qualia are different
than what they "supervene" on.
And Dennett says that <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia> qualia
are "*directly
or immediately apprehensible
<https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/apprehend> by consciousness
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness>*".
In other words, qualia are directly apprehended.  We are interested in the
qualities we directly apprehend, not the different stuff on which they
allegedly supervene/intervene, right?

On Sat, Mar 19, 2022 at 12:38 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Has anyone here read Michael Watkins 2002 book Rediscovering Colors: A
> Study in Pollyanna Realism?
>
> Abstract:
>
> ?In Rediscovering Colors: A Study in Pollyanna Realism, Michael Watkins
> endorses the Moorean view that colors are simple, non-reducible, properties
> of objects. Consequently, Watkins breaks from what has become the received
> view that either colors are reducible to certain properties of interest to
> science, or else nothing is really colored. What is novel about the work is
> that Watkins, unlike other Mooreans, takes seriously the metaphysics of
> colors. Consequently, Watkins provides an account of what colors are, how
> they are related to the physical properties on which they supervene, and
> how colors can be causally efficacious without the threat of causal
> overdetermination. Along the way, he provides novel accounts of normal
> conditions and non-human color properties. The book will be of interest to
> any metaphysician and philosopher of mind interested in colors and color
> perception.?
>
> I haven?t finished reading it, so no further comment at this time.
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Sun Mar 20 20:30:07 2022
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 14:30:07 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Nobody knows the true colors of things,
 on this day of color.
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZ+pc_Oqg=vWvAFerCLsiYEJ=2qu2QgkK3V_xVFP6vDOw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7-onuUSiiJWLv10hREK_qgcrMbCN1zZH20QE6kkXNmxhBJUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaBwNZKTKrsfKC1Cr3+mxhbtn0kCG_yPT7CMW9ZkwNSjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWqwTzcRqMLZpC7Vq6NjKPku1ApMbjhsPp3g4bXA9TKmg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSV=s9SEFb4Oh0HbAzJy1uRA-Gk6dd830Z_YTP1UhS5jg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEb-7-xEt_NM9zF1OA3uVqDU842WJP4KxRH4_X8wwiMPwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSp0JE7d9=WGo2UixHjB7odycQUU2ZkxpmpyLCGdg=DpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ+pc_Oqg=vWvAFerCLsiYEJ=2qu2QgkK3V_xVFP6vDOw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onvayjN7V3aRUFx=rCPQKrxoT16D-Dk3t+WgUV_EspjCzg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi William,
>From a certain point of view, this is true.
But perception is not everything.  Perception, through abstracting senses,
can be mistaken, or interpreted differently, as you are pointing out.
Direct apprehension of physical facts about the final results of perception
is what really matters.  This can't be mistaken.
If you are looking at a pencil, in a glass of water, and it seems to you
like the pencil is bent, you can know, absolutely, that your knowledge of
the pencil is bent, even though you don't know the true nature of the
actual pencil in the glass of water.
If you have knowledge which believes a war is a great success, and I have
different knowledge that it is a great tragedy, then those differences are
facts.
And if one knows something, that knowledge must be something.  Once we
discover what this knowledge is, we will be able to objectively observe it,
and know what it is like, including any differences.
There is no possible miss interpretation of directly apprehended qualia.
Your redness, and what it is like, will be the same, no matter which brain
is directly apprehending it.



On Sat, Mar 19, 2022 at 1:23 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> In some cases, perception is everything.  If I think the war is a great
> success for RUssia and you think that it is a great tragedy, who's right?
> You can't say that it is what it is because it isn't anything without
> someone's perception.  Baseball play  "I'm safe. "   catcher  "He's out."
> ump "He ain't nothing until I call it.  He's out!"
>
> But if I say the Moon is made of green cheese, that's testable and not
> defined by our perception.  Sometimes there is no reality except what the
> person's perception says it is.  "I was being chased by a ghost."  His
> reality; his perception.  bill w
>
> On Sat, Mar 19, 2022 at 11:53 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Mar 19, 2022 at 8:17 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> An "intrinsic" property of an object does not depend on how it is
>>> perceived.   adrian
>>>
>>> How can there be a property of something that does not depend on our
>>> perception of it?
>>>
>>
>> By existing independent of whether we perceive it.
>>
>> If a tomato reflects photons of a wavelength in the red range and no
>> other photons out of a white range of photons, but those particular photons
>> all fall on the ground, nearby plants, or other things that are neither
>> eyes nor cameras, it has still reflected only those photons out of a white
>> range of photons and is thus still red.
>>
>>
>>> I think that what something is is dependent on what we think it is
>>>
>>
>> You may think that, but it is incorrect.  There are a lot of people
>> wishing really hard about certain aspects of the world - certain measurable
>> aspects of the war in Ukraine come to mind.  Literally, they are trying to
>> think of it as something other than what it is, in the sense of "what we
>> think it is" that you meant.  As can be easily observed in many cases, they
>> are having no effect on what it is.
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Sun Mar 20 20:34:03 2022
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 13:34:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Nobody knows the true colors of things,
 on this day of color.
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFgDxHrCUa1c5kzsQaHMopK=U5S3qt2pEXC4JtHLiNvjBA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFgDxHrCUa1c5kzsQaHMopK=U5S3qt2pEXC4JtHLiNvjBA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <39BF70FE-C69F-4991-9968-360BD9D95E23@gmail.com>

On Mar 19, 2022, at 9:04 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 19, 2022 at 2:39 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Michael Watkins endorses the Moorean view that colors are simple, non-reducible, properties of objects.
> 
> ### This is silly. If somebody is colorfully hallucinating, which object's colors is he perceiving? If I press on my eye at night I can trigger the perception of phosphenes (have you done? try it, just a little pressure on the eye through the eyelids will create moving greenish rings). Is this greenish color the color of my eyes? My fingers? My eyelids? Other objects?

I haven?t read the book through yet, though I suspect he?s _not_ ignorant of the phenomenon you mention.

And since his ideas are seen as Moorean ? after the philosophy of G. E. Moore ? I?m guessing he would have a means of distinguishing between ?normal? perception and stuff like afterimages, double vision, chromatic aberrations. Any philosopher or perceptual psychologist writing in the last two hundred years or so would almost certainly be aware of these issues ? or would have to be to be taken seriously.

Regards,

Dan
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Sun Mar 20 20:41:04 2022
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 13:41:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Nobody knows the true colors of things,
 on this day of color.
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-ontKFNCfZmA-yxhCtUO9RRStkfGMpmHWaQqSfgyCNVVOwA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7-ontKFNCfZmA-yxhCtUO9RRStkfGMpmHWaQqSfgyCNVVOwA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6D7D67EB-9B2D-4972-B451-6677DB690C85@gmail.com>

On Mar 20, 2022, at 1:21 PM, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> Hi Dan, It looks like I may  have failed to include the link to the actual answer?:
> https://www.quora.com/How-does-the-brain-create-colour-How-would-you-explain-colour-to-a-blind-person/answer/Brent-Allsop-1
> And as you can see, the first paragraph proves this kind of Naive Realism view can't be true, for who's redness would be the property of the strawberry?
> Also, the book summary talked about how qualia: " are related to the physical properties on which they supervene".
> However if qualia supervene on something, then the qualia are different than what they "supervene" on.
> And Dennett says that qualia are "directly or immediately apprehensible by consciousness".
> In other words, qualia are directly apprehended.  We are interested in the qualities we directly apprehend, not the different stuff on which they allegedly supervene/intervene, right?

I haven?t finished reading the book yet, so I can?t really respond in an informed way of how Watkins tries to overcome the issues you raise. I admit, he?s taking a rather controversial view here. And I?m not saying I?m agreeing with him from the start. (I'm interested in Moore, too, though Moore wasn?t a direct realist, I believe, in any meaningful sense. He was into sense data. I take it Watkins is a Moorean in the more abstract sense of taking the ?common sense? conclusion about colours than accepting a sense data view of perception or other trappings of Moore?s philosophy.)

Regards,

Dan
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Mon Mar 21 03:35:55 2022
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 23:35:55 -0400
Subject: [ExI] gas prices
In-Reply-To: <009801d83c65$7177cdf0$546769d0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CALAdGNRUR2d21r8myNbd8gHTrsQZDJ14uznPWv_yaXi0+X3yPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <77FC5134-B93F-4C84-A18D-A37AD74D7B21@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <003601d83b41$4f54f330$edfed990$@rainier66.com>
 <CAAc1gFjyhFdYfryK0homQ7esGrksALL8KJmt5Yb6nVkKJVyMMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <003601d83b51$7ec50320$7c4f0960$@rainier66.com>
 <CAAc1gFiHFXDuoKOWGKxryJyshF-CHjyM9VB58M9jyLQ+gUUXEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <009801d83c65$7177cdf0$546769d0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFgh5CcYcZR-B=vYYssMNnipMcD6A4gPitDu4ujt5ZkvCg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 10:19 AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat
> *Sent:* Saturday, 19 March, 2022 10:08 PM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Cc:* Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] gas prices
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 19, 2022 at 1:23 AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
>  But you can?t run that (or any other small generator) in any small
> enclosed space.  It needs room to breathe.
>
> ### The air vent would not be large. Ten inches round cover, tastefully
integrated into the frunk lid, minimal vibration thanks to using a
free-piston design. The free piston generator is much lighter than
conventional engine-generator combos. It's doable, as long as you accept
low speed, which is OK in a back-up you use only infrequently. Five gallon
fuel capacity should be enough for a couple of hundred miles, after all you
are hypermiling in a very efficient car.
 --------------------------

>
>
> Ah glad you asked.  If one is a clever designer, it wouldn?t be obvious
> that you were hauling a dinosaur burner back there.  I included some weight
> for a sincere sound-suppression system, which would be about 40 pounds.
> Since the rig would only run while you are underway (air-cooled engine
> would have inadequate cooling for stationary use) the tire noise would
> cover the suppressed racket.  If one wanted to take it to a kind of silly
> extreme, a fuel tank could be dressed up to look like a two really big
> suitcases or a toolbox.  Even the filler could be stealth-ized if you
> wanted to, but I am good at living down shame.  The other Tesla-ers would
> know what you are doing and understand.  I don?t want to spend 100k on a
> car that isn?t practical for cross country runs.
>
>
>

### Well, yes, I agree you are painting an alluring picture. A streamlined
trailer in the inimitable Tesla style, masquerading as a cargo carrier,
with hidden power generation and even some actual cargo capacity, this
could be a very viable product, especially since it would be much less
limiting on your driving style than the cut-down generator I propose.

I think there might be a market for either design.

Rafal
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Mon Mar 21 03:47:24 2022
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 23:47:24 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Nobody knows the true colors of things,
 on this day of color.
In-Reply-To: <39BF70FE-C69F-4991-9968-360BD9D95E23@gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFgDxHrCUa1c5kzsQaHMopK=U5S3qt2pEXC4JtHLiNvjBA@mail.gmail.com>
 <39BF70FE-C69F-4991-9968-360BD9D95E23@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFhNckbTEO-27Qqb9OkkeDSf6+P_CLE8EJFu6+VHCNYXBw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 4:37 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Mar 19, 2022, at 9:04 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> On Sat, Mar 19, 2022 at 2:39 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
> Michael Watkins endorses the Moorean view that colors are simple,
>> non-reducible, properties of objects.
>
>
> ### This is silly. If somebody is colorfully hallucinating, which object's
> colors is he perceiving? If I press on my eye at night I can trigger the
> perception of phosphenes (have you done? try it, just a little pressure on
> the eye through the eyelids will create moving greenish rings). Is this
> greenish color the color of my eyes? My fingers? My eyelids? Other objects?
>
>
> I haven?t read the book through yet, though I suspect he?s _not_ ignorant
> of the phenomenon you mention.
>
> And since his ideas are seen as Moorean ? after the philosophy of G. E.
> Moore ? I?m guessing he would have a means of distinguishing between
> ?normal? perception and stuff like afterimages, double vision, chromatic
> aberrations. Any philosopher or perceptual psychologist writing in the last
> two hundred years or so would almost certainly be aware of these issues ?
> or would have to be to be taken seriously.
>
>
### Well, yes, he would have to address the objection I raised, which was
doubtless raised by countless others.  Taken at face value, the statement
"colors are simple, non-reducible, properties of objects" is just inane, so
I agree that there should be some more sophisticated explanation somewhere
in the book.

Do give us an update once you find it.

Rafal
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Mar 21 04:25:04 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 21:25:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] gas prices
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFgh5CcYcZR-B=vYYssMNnipMcD6A4gPitDu4ujt5ZkvCg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNRUR2d21r8myNbd8gHTrsQZDJ14uznPWv_yaXi0+X3yPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <77FC5134-B93F-4C84-A18D-A37AD74D7B21@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <003601d83b41$4f54f330$edfed990$@rainier66.com>
 <CAAc1gFjyhFdYfryK0homQ7esGrksALL8KJmt5Yb6nVkKJVyMMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <003601d83b51$7ec50320$7c4f0960$@rainier66.com>
 <CAAc1gFiHFXDuoKOWGKxryJyshF-CHjyM9VB58M9jyLQ+gUUXEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <009801d83c65$7177cdf0$546769d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAAc1gFgh5CcYcZR-B=vYYssMNnipMcD6A4gPitDu4ujt5ZkvCg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <012c01d83cdb$a3bb11c0$eb313540$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat
?

 

### Well, yes, I agree you are painting an alluring picture. A streamlined trailer in the inimitable Tesla style, masquerading as a cargo carrier, with hidden power generation and even some actual cargo capacity, this could be a very viable product, especially since it would be much less limiting on your driving style than the cut-down generator I propose.

 

I think there might be a market for either design.

 

Rafal

 

 

 

Hi Rafal,

 

I contacted a friend today who is an engineer and who knows Teslas.  He threw cold water on the notion, pointing out some things I should have thought of plus something I couldn?t have known.

 

To start with? I took the drag of a Tesla at speed and added half again for the trailer.  Unless the design is very clever, that is likely an underestimate.  The Tesla has a lower drag coefficient than gasoline burners, lower even than corvettes, which need air to the radiator (note the most recent corvettes have four(!) radiators (sheesh.))  Anything you do to the aerodynamics of a Tesla will mess up the whole scheme.  I shoulda known that just from looking at it.  Elon realizes that making something slippery to the air also makes it look cool.  He got that exactly right.

 

Next: the Tesla S is not a light car, but? the frame is.  The weight of that rig is in the batteries.  If you look at the frame stresses with electric motors on all wheels and an advanced control system to even out the torque, that design saves weight in the frame.  That?s a good thing, but? the Tesla doesn?t play well to having hitches welded on down there.  Welding on a hitch would likely void the warranty.  I will cut myself some slack for not knowing that part.  It isn?t by itself a show-stopper, but it will likely push the design downsize, which is OK.

 

So now we look toward a smaller, lighter trailer which cannot keep the batteries fully charged by itself, but can perhaps extend your driving day to a full 12 hours at moderate speed, even if not the kind of speed we are fondly accustomed to on this side of the continent.  So it would be a range extender rather than a full equilibrium-capable generator.  I would size that at about 10 kW and carry about 30 gallons of fuel.  Together with compromising some on cargo space, the trailer is light enough to reduce rolling drag and to some extend wind resistance, to manageable numbers.  Now it is looking more like about a 600 pound trailer with room for about one suitcase.

 

This part is the most likely show-stopper: the Tesla software doesn?t allow driving and charging at the same time.  Apparently Elon thought of this whole notion and intentionally defeated it before his marvelous creation could be seen hauling trailers with roaring dinosaur burners.  I don?t know if it is possible to hack into the software on those rigs, never tried it.

 

spike

 

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Mar 21 04:48:26 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 21:48:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] gas prices
In-Reply-To: <012c01d83cdb$a3bb11c0$eb313540$@rainier66.com>
References: <CALAdGNRUR2d21r8myNbd8gHTrsQZDJ14uznPWv_yaXi0+X3yPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <77FC5134-B93F-4C84-A18D-A37AD74D7B21@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <003601d83b41$4f54f330$edfed990$@rainier66.com>
 <CAAc1gFjyhFdYfryK0homQ7esGrksALL8KJmt5Yb6nVkKJVyMMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <003601d83b51$7ec50320$7c4f0960$@rainier66.com>
 <CAAc1gFiHFXDuoKOWGKxryJyshF-CHjyM9VB58M9jyLQ+gUUXEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <009801d83c65$7177cdf0$546769d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAAc1gFgh5CcYcZR-B=vYYssMNnipMcD6A4gPitDu4ujt5ZkvCg@mail.gmail.com>
 <012c01d83cdb$a3bb11c0$eb313540$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <013e01d83cde$e7868a30$b6939e90$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
?

 

>>?I think there might be a market for either design.

 

Rafal

 

 

 

>?Hi Rafal,

 

>?I contacted a friend today who is an engineer and who knows Teslas.  He threw cold water on the notion, pointing out some things I should have thought of plus something I couldn?t have known?It isn?t by itself a show-stopper, but it will likely push the design downsize, which is OK?spike

 

 

 

It might be Tesla isn?t the right platform for this sort of notion.  I see that various factors want to push the design downscale, but that isn?t really where I want to go.  Reasoning: I would like to get on a freeway in a series hybrid with the IC out back where I don?t hafta listen to it clatter, then drive continuously coast to coast with the car driving itself for parts of the trip.

 

But spike, they said in unison, what about the bathroom?

 

I think I could invent a makeshift solution, if it is a solo trip.  There are dry camping toilets.  Unless it is a solo trip, using one of those on the road is far too undignified even for my very relaxed standards in the old human dignity department.  Food we can do, the toilet we can do.  The seat in a Tesla is very comfortable and would make an adequate bed for the two full day trip coast to coast.  Furthermore? if one understands how the colon works, it is possible to arrange food in such a way as to not need to take a dump in those two days.  Urinating while driving is relatively easy (for men (the biological variety (I arranged a way to urinate while riding a motorcycle (kinda revolting details available on request.))))

 

In any case? if Elon?s software won?t allow this notion, we are back to a Nissan leaf or some such absurdity, with some advantage: many leaf drivers hate them, so they are cheap to buy used, and not even so painful to buy new.  But they don?t offer self-driving or even super-cruise, so? back to the old drawing board.

 

spike

 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Mar 21 16:33:09 2022
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 11:33:09 -0500
Subject: [ExI] perception is reality - examples
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2eemuu9xP5kakDCnhMXA0UZ6Q34+3Ap2TS-18eiYZoF7w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaYoZ+X+1=JiZ=g0uBW=BhqU7DV9iZvTtfvpCeB9DHYxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2eemuu9xP5kakDCnhMXA0UZ6Q34+3Ap2TS-18eiYZoF7w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbG2GgvXEd3vVgCuXfNZ=ZGioiptCkF+dgB3_Bs4EASzw@mail.gmail.com>

The physical properties of the Necker cube do not explain the perceptions
we get from it. https://www.google.com/search?   bill w

On Sat, Mar 19, 2022 at 3:24 PM Dave S via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Sat, Mar 19, 2022 at 3:59 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Much of our experience consists of realities that we create.  Think of
>> tastes:  music, food, fashion.
>>
>
> You're talking about opinions, not physical properties like mass,
> location, velocity, color, density, etc. Physical properties aren't
> dependent upon perception. A million people could say that an object weighs
> 1 pound, but that doesn't affect the actual weight of the object.
>
> -Dave
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Mon Mar 21 17:18:42 2022
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 11:18:42 -0600
Subject: [ExI] perception is reality - examples
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbG2GgvXEd3vVgCuXfNZ=ZGioiptCkF+dgB3_Bs4EASzw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaYoZ+X+1=JiZ=g0uBW=BhqU7DV9iZvTtfvpCeB9DHYxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2eemuu9xP5kakDCnhMXA0UZ6Q34+3Ap2TS-18eiYZoF7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbG2GgvXEd3vVgCuXfNZ=ZGioiptCkF+dgB3_Bs4EASzw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onvOO+mZAqFNP_9OZRDuGP16GNfpDMT+=OeOCuUg5S2NHg@mail.gmail.com>

How does it not??  Our knowledge of the necker cube, drawn on a flat piece
of paper, can switch back and forth between 2 different 3D representations.
It is critically important to distinguish between reality and knowledge of
reality
<https://canonizer.com/videos/consciousness/?chapter=differentiate_reality_knowledge>
.



On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 10:34 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> The physical properties of the Necker cube do not explain the perceptions
> we get from it. https://www.google.com/search?   bill w
>
> On Sat, Mar 19, 2022 at 3:24 PM Dave S via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Mar 19, 2022 at 3:59 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Much of our experience consists of realities that we create.  Think of
>>> tastes:  music, food, fashion.
>>>
>>
>> You're talking about opinions, not physical properties like mass,
>> location, velocity, color, density, etc. Physical properties aren't
>> dependent upon perception. A million people could say that an object weighs
>> 1 pound, but that doesn't affect the actual weight of the object.
>>
>> -Dave
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Mar 21 17:26:06 2022
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 12:26:06 -0500
Subject: [ExI] perception is reality - examples
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onvOO+mZAqFNP_9OZRDuGP16GNfpDMT+=OeOCuUg5S2NHg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaYoZ+X+1=JiZ=g0uBW=BhqU7DV9iZvTtfvpCeB9DHYxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2eemuu9xP5kakDCnhMXA0UZ6Q34+3Ap2TS-18eiYZoF7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbG2GgvXEd3vVgCuXfNZ=ZGioiptCkF+dgB3_Bs4EASzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onvOO+mZAqFNP_9OZRDuGP16GNfpDMT+=OeOCuUg5S2NHg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbsfvTx9QQPnsdS_hppFX0sNtM8SmTAndcGV9JU4N7Y+Q@mail.gmail.com>

The point:  you cannot predict from the physical dimensions of the Necker
cube that it will create the reversals and 3D effect you see.  bill w

On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 12:20 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> How does it not??  Our knowledge of the necker cube, drawn on a flat piece
> of paper, can switch back and forth between 2 different 3D representations.
> It is critically important to distinguish between reality and
> knowledge of reality
> <https://canonizer.com/videos/consciousness/?chapter=differentiate_reality_knowledge>
> .
>
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 10:34 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> The physical properties of the Necker cube do not explain the perceptions
>> we get from it. https://www.google.com/search?   bill w
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 19, 2022 at 3:24 PM Dave S via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, Mar 19, 2022 at 3:59 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Much of our experience consists of realities that we create.  Think of
>>>> tastes:  music, food, fashion.
>>>>
>>>
>>> You're talking about opinions, not physical properties like mass,
>>> location, velocity, color, density, etc. Physical properties aren't
>>> dependent upon perception. A million people could say that an object weighs
>>> 1 pound, but that doesn't affect the actual weight of the object.
>>>
>>> -Dave
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Mon Mar 21 18:12:40 2022
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 12:12:40 -0600
Subject: [ExI] perception is reality - examples
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbsfvTx9QQPnsdS_hppFX0sNtM8SmTAndcGV9JU4N7Y+Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaYoZ+X+1=JiZ=g0uBW=BhqU7DV9iZvTtfvpCeB9DHYxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2eemuu9xP5kakDCnhMXA0UZ6Q34+3Ap2TS-18eiYZoF7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbG2GgvXEd3vVgCuXfNZ=ZGioiptCkF+dgB3_Bs4EASzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onvOO+mZAqFNP_9OZRDuGP16GNfpDMT+=OeOCuUg5S2NHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbsfvTx9QQPnsdS_hppFX0sNtM8SmTAndcGV9JU4N7Y+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onumYVgw5RqSwOD1XcFt-XrVdWLSMNo_bxFit8sDE_VuSg@mail.gmail.com>

Not sure what you are trying to get at.
You can control which side is closest to you, in all the images in the
Wikipedia
article
<https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Necker_cube#:~:text=The%20Necker%20cube%20is%20an,perspectives%20of%20the%20object%20represented.>
.
When you switch between these two interpretations, there must be some 3D
structure, represented in your brain, which is that 3D knowledge, and which
is changes, according to your will, right?


On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 11:27 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> The point:  you cannot predict from the physical dimensions of the Necker
> cube that it will create the reversals and 3D effect you see.  bill w
>
> On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 12:20 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> How does it not??  Our knowledge of the necker cube, drawn on a flat
>> piece of paper, can switch back and forth between 2 different 3D
>> representations.
>> It is critically important to distinguish between reality and
>> knowledge of reality
>> <https://canonizer.com/videos/consciousness/?chapter=differentiate_reality_knowledge>
>> .
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 10:34 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> The physical properties of the Necker cube do not explain the
>>> perceptions we get from it. https://www.google.com/search?   bill w
>>>
>>> On Sat, Mar 19, 2022 at 3:24 PM Dave S via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, Mar 19, 2022 at 3:59 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Much of our experience consists of realities that we create.  Think of
>>>>> tastes:  music, food, fashion.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You're talking about opinions, not physical properties like mass,
>>>> location, velocity, color, density, etc. Physical properties aren't
>>>> dependent upon perception. A million people could say that an object weighs
>>>> 1 pound, but that doesn't affect the actual weight of the object.
>>>>
>>>> -Dave
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Mar 21 19:38:09 2022
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 14:38:09 -0500
Subject: [ExI] perception is reality - examples
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onumYVgw5RqSwOD1XcFt-XrVdWLSMNo_bxFit8sDE_VuSg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaYoZ+X+1=JiZ=g0uBW=BhqU7DV9iZvTtfvpCeB9DHYxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2eemuu9xP5kakDCnhMXA0UZ6Q34+3Ap2TS-18eiYZoF7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbG2GgvXEd3vVgCuXfNZ=ZGioiptCkF+dgB3_Bs4EASzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onvOO+mZAqFNP_9OZRDuGP16GNfpDMT+=OeOCuUg5S2NHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbsfvTx9QQPnsdS_hppFX0sNtM8SmTAndcGV9JU4N7Y+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onumYVgw5RqSwOD1XcFt-XrVdWLSMNo_bxFit8sDE_VuSg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaWic4e9XQy7fu-oL+LH37YCeZZDMbZ-yuYOSTEMvvxuA@mail.gmail.com>

If you think it's according to your will, just try to make one 'face' stay
the same.  You cannot.  It's as if your brain gets tired of seeing it one
way and without your permission changes to the other 'face' as forward.

The reality:  two overlapping squares.  The perception: a cube.  The
perception is not predictable from the reality, just like any other optical
illusion.  There is no cube there, not anything 3 D.  Yet our perceptions
are very strong.  bill w

On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 1:14 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Not sure what you are trying to get at.
> You can control which side is closest to you, in all the images in the Wikipedia
> article
> <https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Necker_cube#:~:text=The%20Necker%20cube%20is%20an,perspectives%20of%20the%20object%20represented.>
> .
> When you switch between these two interpretations, there must be some 3D
> structure, represented in your brain, which is that 3D knowledge, and which
> is changes, according to your will, right?
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 11:27 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> The point:  you cannot predict from the physical dimensions of the Necker
>> cube that it will create the reversals and 3D effect you see.  bill w
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 12:20 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> How does it not??  Our knowledge of the necker cube, drawn on a flat
>>> piece of paper, can switch back and forth between 2 different 3D
>>> representations.
>>> It is critically important to distinguish between reality and
>>> knowledge of reality
>>> <https://canonizer.com/videos/consciousness/?chapter=differentiate_reality_knowledge>
>>> .
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 10:34 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The physical properties of the Necker cube do not explain the
>>>> perceptions we get from it. https://www.google.com/search?   bill w
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Mar 19, 2022 at 3:24 PM Dave S via extropy-chat <
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Mar 19, 2022 at 3:59 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>>>>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Much of our experience consists of realities that we create.  Think
>>>>>> of tastes:  music, food, fashion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You're talking about opinions, not physical properties like mass,
>>>>> location, velocity, color, density, etc. Physical properties aren't
>>>>> dependent upon perception. A million people could say that an object weighs
>>>>> 1 pound, but that doesn't affect the actual weight of the object.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Dave
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Mon Mar 21 19:45:54 2022
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 13:45:54 -0600
Subject: [ExI] perception is reality - examples
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaWic4e9XQy7fu-oL+LH37YCeZZDMbZ-yuYOSTEMvvxuA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaYoZ+X+1=JiZ=g0uBW=BhqU7DV9iZvTtfvpCeB9DHYxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2eemuu9xP5kakDCnhMXA0UZ6Q34+3Ap2TS-18eiYZoF7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbG2GgvXEd3vVgCuXfNZ=ZGioiptCkF+dgB3_Bs4EASzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onvOO+mZAqFNP_9OZRDuGP16GNfpDMT+=OeOCuUg5S2NHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbsfvTx9QQPnsdS_hppFX0sNtM8SmTAndcGV9JU4N7Y+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onumYVgw5RqSwOD1XcFt-XrVdWLSMNo_bxFit8sDE_VuSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaWic4e9XQy7fu-oL+LH37YCeZZDMbZ-yuYOSTEMvvxuA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-ons7LYJJmhcCO+ip29-3e=tB6W=h_Vn_89BPUZ_QKnGgqg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 1:39 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> There is no cube there, not anything 3 D.  Yet our perceptions are very
> strong.  bill w
>

That's what I'm trying to say, the necker cube is not 3D  But your
knowledge definitely is 3D.  There must be some objectively observable
structures in your brain, which is this 3D knowledge, which you can change.
People are starting to be able to observe some of these 3D structures, with
fMRA observations and such.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3761598/
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnhum.2012.00051/full
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Thresholded-fMRI-surface-rendered-activation-images-superimposed-on-standard-structural_fig1_12599288
and many more...
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Mar 22 03:07:02 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 20:07:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] gas prices
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFgh5CcYcZR-B=vYYssMNnipMcD6A4gPitDu4ujt5ZkvCg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNRUR2d21r8myNbd8gHTrsQZDJ14uznPWv_yaXi0+X3yPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <77FC5134-B93F-4C84-A18D-A37AD74D7B21@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <003601d83b41$4f54f330$edfed990$@rainier66.com>
 <CAAc1gFjyhFdYfryK0homQ7esGrksALL8KJmt5Yb6nVkKJVyMMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <003601d83b51$7ec50320$7c4f0960$@rainier66.com>
 <CAAc1gFiHFXDuoKOWGKxryJyshF-CHjyM9VB58M9jyLQ+gUUXEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <009801d83c65$7177cdf0$546769d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAAc1gFgh5CcYcZR-B=vYYssMNnipMcD6A4gPitDu4ujt5ZkvCg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002701d83d99$e7cf1af0$b76d50d0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat
?

>?I think there might be a market for either design.

 

Rafal

 

 

Hi Rafal, 

 

It now looks like towing a generator (or anything else) with a Tesla is a no-go.

 

https://twitter.com/i/status/1505679545965314054

 

Apparently I was about the seven trillionth person to think of hauling a generator.  People who have commented online say it does not make a cross country trip practical in one of Elon?s creations.

 



 

It doesn?t take a lotta calculation, but I recognize that in general one of these small generators will hold about three quarters of a gallon of gasoline, and it takes about an hour and a quarter to run that fuel out under the current load a discharged Tesla would pull.  The amount of energy that would provide in that 75 minutes would carry the Tesla driver about? 30 miles, 40 if she drives 55.

 

For fun, I did some calcs on building a trailer to haul lithium batteries.  That was kinda discouraging: not only does it weigh a lot, but the cost of the batteries would be up the kazoo.  Lithium batteries degrade with age as well as charge cycles, so? if you don?t go on cross country trips often, the battery trailer is a no-go anyway, never mind the voided warranty.

 

Well? Telsa owners can always rent a dinosaur burner for the occasional long trip I suppose.  I am back to looking at a more modest rig like the Nissan leaf, an older kinda junky one that won?t cost much.  Their resale price drops dramatically after they are 6 or 7 years old, because the range and performance start to degrade noticeably.  But if one is hauling a generator, that wouldn?t matter as much.

 

On the other hand, this whole idea might just be stupid.

 

spike

 

 

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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Tue Mar 22 04:39:38 2022
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 00:39:38 -0400
Subject: [ExI] gas prices
In-Reply-To: <002701d83d99$e7cf1af0$b76d50d0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CALAdGNRUR2d21r8myNbd8gHTrsQZDJ14uznPWv_yaXi0+X3yPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <77FC5134-B93F-4C84-A18D-A37AD74D7B21@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <003601d83b41$4f54f330$edfed990$@rainier66.com>
 <CAAc1gFjyhFdYfryK0homQ7esGrksALL8KJmt5Yb6nVkKJVyMMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <003601d83b51$7ec50320$7c4f0960$@rainier66.com>
 <CAAc1gFiHFXDuoKOWGKxryJyshF-CHjyM9VB58M9jyLQ+gUUXEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <009801d83c65$7177cdf0$546769d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAAc1gFgh5CcYcZR-B=vYYssMNnipMcD6A4gPitDu4ujt5ZkvCg@mail.gmail.com>
 <002701d83d99$e7cf1af0$b76d50d0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFhy8Dh=Tm0LdiGXePaKSddM8_3Fu1f=CHWcOvVDB22__g@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 11:07 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
> Well? Telsa owners can always rent a dinosaur burner for the occasional
> long trip I suppose.  I am back to looking at a more modest rig like the
> Nissan leaf, an older kinda junky one that won?t cost much.  Their resale
> price drops dramatically after they are 6 or 7 years old, because the range
> and performance start to degrade noticeably.  But if one is hauling a
> generator, that wouldn?t matter as much.
>

 ### One thing that I just don't understand is why the Chevy Volt was a
failure. It is eminently more practical than a Tesla and cheaper and has
the built in generator right there. I guess it's too immoral for those who
buy Teslas for virtue signaling purposes and too expensive for regular
schmucks.

If you are in the market for an electric car you can also use on long trips
without wasting time on recharging, consider a used Volt.

Rafal
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Mar 22 13:29:43 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 06:29:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] gas prices
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFhy8Dh=Tm0LdiGXePaKSddM8_3Fu1f=CHWcOvVDB22__g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNRUR2d21r8myNbd8gHTrsQZDJ14uznPWv_yaXi0+X3yPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <77FC5134-B93F-4C84-A18D-A37AD74D7B21@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <003601d83b41$4f54f330$edfed990$@rainier66.com>
 <CAAc1gFjyhFdYfryK0homQ7esGrksALL8KJmt5Yb6nVkKJVyMMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <003601d83b51$7ec50320$7c4f0960$@rainier66.com>
 <CAAc1gFiHFXDuoKOWGKxryJyshF-CHjyM9VB58M9jyLQ+gUUXEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <009801d83c65$7177cdf0$546769d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAAc1gFgh5CcYcZR-B=vYYssMNnipMcD6A4gPitDu4ujt5ZkvCg@mail.gmail.com>
 <002701d83d99$e7cf1af0$b76d50d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAAc1gFhy8Dh=Tm0LdiGXePaKSddM8_3Fu1f=CHWcOvVDB22__g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003301d83df0$e46c0740$ad4415c0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] gas prices

 

 

 

On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 11:07 PM <spike at rainier66.com <mailto:spike at rainier66.com> > wrote:

 

Well? Telsa owners can always rent a dinosaur burner for the occasional long trip I suppose.  I am back to looking at a more modest rig like the Nissan leaf, an older kinda junky one that won?t cost much.  Their resale price drops dramatically after they are 6 or 7 years old, because the range and performance start to degrade noticeably.  But if one is hauling a generator, that wouldn?t matter as much.

 

 ### One thing that I just don't understand is why the Chevy Volt was a failure. It is eminently more practical than a Tesla and cheaper and has the built in generator right there. I guess it's too immoral for those who buy Teslas for virtue signaling purposes and too expensive for regular schmucks.

 

If you are in the market for an electric car you can also use on long trips without wasting time on recharging, consider a used Volt.

 

Rafal

 

 

 

 

 

Rafal I would go that route but not because it is a technologically superior solution.  I read online reviews of the volt and found they were generally unpopular with owners, despised by some, loved by none.  Most of the complaints as I recall were they are underpowered and overweight.  Any series hybrid will have that problem.  If one hauls a running generator, that temporarily converts an all-electric into a series hybrid.

 

The parallel hybrids are doing better in the market.  Either way, in series or parallel hybrids, one is carrying the combustion engine always.  What I was trying for was a way to haul the gas engine only when it is needed, which isn?t often, and even then it is under conditions which it doesn?t hurt to be overweight such as freeway cruising.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

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From gadersd at gmail.com  Tue Mar 22 13:34:00 2022
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Hermes Trismegistus)
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 09:34:00 -0400
Subject: [ExI] gas prices
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFhy8Dh=Tm0LdiGXePaKSddM8_3Fu1f=CHWcOvVDB22__g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNRUR2d21r8myNbd8gHTrsQZDJ14uznPWv_yaXi0+X3yPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <77FC5134-B93F-4C84-A18D-A37AD74D7B21@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <003601d83b41$4f54f330$edfed990$@rainier66.com>
 <CAAc1gFjyhFdYfryK0homQ7esGrksALL8KJmt5Yb6nVkKJVyMMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <003601d83b51$7ec50320$7c4f0960$@rainier66.com>
 <CAAc1gFiHFXDuoKOWGKxryJyshF-CHjyM9VB58M9jyLQ+gUUXEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <009801d83c65$7177cdf0$546769d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAAc1gFgh5CcYcZR-B=vYYssMNnipMcD6A4gPitDu4ujt5ZkvCg@mail.gmail.com>
 <002701d83d99$e7cf1af0$b76d50d0$@rainier66.com>,
 <CAAc1gFhy8Dh=Tm0LdiGXePaKSddM8_3Fu1f=CHWcOvVDB22__g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <120EDA29-A9B2-472B-BB21-846A231CE730@hxcore.ol>

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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Mar 22 21:47:36 2022
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 21:47:36 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Brain-computer interface helps patient with locked-in
 syndrome communicate
Message-ID: <CAL_armgYGjMkxzC3rRnzjQFWe=HwxNOAxk-zJ7ToN5eZORiWMw@mail.gmail.com>

The patient, a 37-year old man with ALS, was able to communicate
despite not having any voluntary muscle control.
By Siddhi Camila Lama    22 March 2022

<https://www.livescience.com/brain-computer-interface-als-communicate>

Quotes:
For the first time, a patient in a completely locked-in state due to
amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS) was able to communicate verbally
using a brain-computer interface, according to a new study.

This technology allowed the patient, a 37-year old man with ALS, to
communicate by forming words and phrases, despite not having any
voluntary muscle control. The system involved implanting a device with
microelectrodes into the patient's brain, and using a custom computer
software to help translate his brain signals.

As communication with patients in a completely locked-in state has
historically not been possible, the team didn't  know whether or not
the system would work for patient K1. In fact, "nobody believed that
communication is possible in a completely locked-in state," Birbaumer
told Live Science.

Yet, about 3 months after the surgery, patient K1 was able to
successfully use neurofeedback to control the brain-computer
interface. About half a month later, he started selecting letters and
spelling out words and phrases, eventually even thanking the authors
and spelling out, "boys, it works so effortlessly."
----------

A remarkable breakthrough in treatment!

BillK

From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Tue Mar 22 23:27:25 2022
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 17:27:25 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Paper on color.
Message-ID: <CAK7-onvwcr4X+a2JkifpNiKznN-mbws0kyRsBwpn5Dkwrxa0Rg@mail.gmail.com>

If anyone is interested in reviewing a paper I intend in submitting to this
Luxemburg conference <https://philevents.org/event/show/97982?ref=email>,
it is here
<https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ucf6VCLbMac5hh0ckydbjDsuwTiN1p2JCkoFHnhDWQc/edit>
.
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Mar 24 14:54:03 2022
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 09:54:03 -0500
Subject: [ExI] emotional deficits in sci-fi
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbKkD-vveen=4dd6E65cHgksTh2+eET9ZLPLwZ7qQuL4g@mail.gmail.com>

I have been reading sci-fi for nearly 70 years (first book Farmer in the
Sky).  I have finally noticed something:

The characters in the books are on the other end of the scale from
hypersensitivity.  They are dullards.

When contact is made with aliens or alien technology or artifacts, there is
some surprise, but very soon it's all matter of fact - highly interested,
still, but not afraid.

Fear is our strongest emotion and it is tailor made for reacting to aliens
- which means strong fear and strong suspicions and so on.

When did you ever read of a character fainting?  Having a panic attack?
Running away?  Or any other sign of great fear?

Apparently nearly all of the characters are heroes of some sort who just
don't show fear.  They do say it sometimes.  But don't act that way.
People in intense fear make mistakes, are clumsy, make poor decisions.

In other words:  the main problem with scifi is that it is unrealistic!

Thought for the day:  twin sisters 100 years old, on how they have lived so
long.  One - "Well, we just have never died."     Cymbal crash

bill w
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From giulio at gmail.com  Thu Mar 24 15:31:43 2022
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 16:31:43 +0100
Subject: [ExI] emotional deficits in sci-fi
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbKkD-vveen=4dd6E65cHgksTh2+eET9ZLPLwZ7qQuL4g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbKkD-vveen=4dd6E65cHgksTh2+eET9ZLPLwZ7qQuL4g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyc2TGAvrzPXu3htUNMVKWXPmcOOr=pkqvXHj5imr0nJMQ@mail.gmail.com>

This was a flaw of classical ?golden age? science fiction, but contemporary
science fiction is not always like that.

On 2022. Mar 24., Thu at 15:55, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I have been reading sci-fi for nearly 70 years (first book Farmer in the
> Sky).  I have finally noticed something:
>
> The characters in the books are on the other end of the scale from
> hypersensitivity.  They are dullards.
>
> When contact is made with aliens or alien technology or artifacts, there
> is some surprise, but very soon it's all matter of fact - highly
> interested, still, but not afraid.
>
> Fear is our strongest emotion and it is tailor made for reacting to aliens
> - which means strong fear and strong suspicions and so on.
>
> When did you ever read of a character fainting?  Having a panic attack?
> Running away?  Or any other sign of great fear?
>
> Apparently nearly all of the characters are heroes of some sort who just
> don't show fear.  They do say it sometimes.  But don't act that way.
> People in intense fear make mistakes, are clumsy, make poor decisions.
>
> In other words:  the main problem with scifi is that it is unrealistic!
>
> Thought for the day:  twin sisters 100 years old, on how they have lived
> so long.  One - "Well, we just have never died."     Cymbal crash
>
> bill w
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Mar 24 16:20:28 2022
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 11:20:28 -0500
Subject: [ExI] emotional deficits in sci-fi
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyc2TGAvrzPXu3htUNMVKWXPmcOOr=pkqvXHj5imr0nJMQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbKkD-vveen=4dd6E65cHgksTh2+eET9ZLPLwZ7qQuL4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyc2TGAvrzPXu3htUNMVKWXPmcOOr=pkqvXHj5imr0nJMQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZ+eEW71DvCr8nmLjRFW03RJWLLJT_0eSd-u2AuD9StrA@mail.gmail.com>

I sure would like to read some modern scifi in which people act more like
people.  In meeting aliens some people would have heart attacks.

 Know any good new books?   bill w

On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 10:33 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> This was a flaw of classical ?golden age? science fiction, but
> contemporary science fiction is not always like that.
>
> On 2022. Mar 24., Thu at 15:55, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> I have been reading sci-fi for nearly 70 years (first book Farmer in the
>> Sky).  I have finally noticed something:
>>
>> The characters in the books are on the other end of the scale from
>> hypersensitivity.  They are dullards.
>>
>> When contact is made with aliens or alien technology or artifacts, there
>> is some surprise, but very soon it's all matter of fact - highly
>> interested, still, but not afraid.
>>
>> Fear is our strongest emotion and it is tailor made for reacting to
>> aliens - which means strong fear and strong suspicions and so on.
>>
>> When did you ever read of a character fainting?  Having a panic attack?
>> Running away?  Or any other sign of great fear?
>>
>> Apparently nearly all of the characters are heroes of some sort who just
>> don't show fear.  They do say it sometimes.  But don't act that way.
>> People in intense fear make mistakes, are clumsy, make poor decisions.
>>
>> In other words:  the main problem with scifi is that it is unrealistic!
>>
>> Thought for the day:  twin sisters 100 years old, on how they have lived
>> so long.  One - "Well, we just have never died."     Cymbal crash
>>
>> bill w
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Mar 24 16:25:26 2022
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 11:25:26 -0500
Subject: [ExI] earworm of the day
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEatfR+fvzy8imBOtQCMCym1n8ax+mzr_vWXs2MrGBGBAQ@mail.gmail.com>

Woke up with this one and still have it:

When the red, red robin <https://www.definitions.net/definition/robin>
comes bob, bob, bobbin' along, along
<https://www.definitions.net/definition/along>
There'll be no more sobbin' when he starts
<https://www.definitions.net/definition/starts> throbbin' his old
sweet <https://www.definitions.net/definition/sweet> song
Wake up, wake up you sleepy
<https://www.definitions.net/definition/sleepy> head

Get up, get out of your bed
Cheer up, cheer <https://www.definitions.net/definition/cheer> up the
sun is red
Live, love, laugh <https://www.definitions.net/definition/laugh> and
be happy <https://www.definitions.net/definition/happy>   Al Jolson


Anybody have any idea why my cursor turns into linked zeroes?  New one
on me.    bill w
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From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Mar 24 17:00:19 2022
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 10:00:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] emotional deficits in sci-fi
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbKkD-vveen=4dd6E65cHgksTh2+eET9ZLPLwZ7qQuL4g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbKkD-vveen=4dd6E65cHgksTh2+eET9ZLPLwZ7qQuL4g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNT2hjwJrGPGyQRsk_zyXqpYPRXV5GebjFUitib-neVh7w@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 7:56 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> When did you ever read of a character fainting?  Having a panic attack?
> Running away?  Or any other sign of great fear?
>
> Apparently nearly all of the characters are heroes of some sort who just
> don't show fear.
>

 Because it is less interesting to read about people who react with fear.
Fear rarely solves problems (though it does create them).  Leaving problems
unsolved means there is little if any plot.

There is room for fear early on in a story, when the problems are being set
up.  And that is when I've read of people running away, et al.  But only at
first.
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From giulio at gmail.com  Thu Mar 24 17:42:35 2022
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 18:42:35 +0100
Subject: [ExI] emotional deficits in sci-fi
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZ+eEW71DvCr8nmLjRFW03RJWLLJT_0eSd-u2AuD9StrA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbKkD-vveen=4dd6E65cHgksTh2+eET9ZLPLwZ7qQuL4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyc2TGAvrzPXu3htUNMVKWXPmcOOr=pkqvXHj5imr0nJMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ+eEW71DvCr8nmLjRFW03RJWLLJT_0eSd-u2AuD9StrA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyckmy7H=RknPrHGfGj1h6LjFpfi5raj3vVB3MwJwrKHTg@mail.gmail.com>

On 2022. Mar 24., Thu at 17:21, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I sure would like to read some modern scifi in which people act more like
> people.  In meeting aliens some people would have heart attacks.
>
>  Know any good new books?   bill w
>

Try this, there?s also a sequel:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom's_End


> On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 10:33 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> This was a flaw of classical ?golden age? science fiction, but
>> contemporary science fiction is not always like that.
>>
>> On 2022. Mar 24., Thu at 15:55, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I have been reading sci-fi for nearly 70 years (first book Farmer in the
>>> Sky).  I have finally noticed something:
>>>
>>> The characters in the books are on the other end of the scale from
>>> hypersensitivity.  They are dullards.
>>>
>>> When contact is made with aliens or alien technology or artifacts, there
>>> is some surprise, but very soon it's all matter of fact - highly
>>> interested, still, but not afraid.
>>>
>>> Fear is our strongest emotion and it is tailor made for reacting to
>>> aliens - which means strong fear and strong suspicions and so on.
>>>
>>> When did you ever read of a character fainting?  Having a panic attack?
>>> Running away?  Or any other sign of great fear?
>>>
>>> Apparently nearly all of the characters are heroes of some sort who just
>>> don't show fear.  They do say it sometimes.  But don't act that way.
>>> People in intense fear make mistakes, are clumsy, make poor decisions.
>>>
>>> In other words:  the main problem with scifi is that it is unrealistic!
>>>
>>> Thought for the day:  twin sisters 100 years old, on how they have lived
>>> so long.  One - "Well, we just have never died."     Cymbal crash
>>>
>>> bill w
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Mar 24 18:56:21 2022
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 18:56:21 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Another very unusual number 1/137
Message-ID: <CAL_armjipSHs1qbhGJTpQr9tt422TTDMXZgzP=jUocF-jZRang@mail.gmail.com>

Life as we know it would not exist without this highly unusual number
By Paul Sutter      published 24 March 2022

<https://www.space.com/fine-structure-constant-universe-mystery>

Quotes:
The fine-structure constant is a seemingly random number with no units
or dimensions, which has cropped up in so many places in physics, and
seems to control one of the most fundamental interactions in the
universe.

Its name is the fine-structure constant, and it's a measure of the
strength of the interaction between charged particles and the
electromagnetic force. The current estimate of the fine-structure
constant is 0.007 297 352 5693, with an uncertainty of 11 on the last
two digits. The number is easier to remember by its inverse,
approximately 1/137.

If it had any other value, life as we know it would be impossible. And
yet we have no idea where it comes from.
---------

Also see: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-structure_constant>

BillK

From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Mar 24 21:51:00 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 14:51:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] emotional deficits in sci-fi
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZ+eEW71DvCr8nmLjRFW03RJWLLJT_0eSd-u2AuD9StrA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbKkD-vveen=4dd6E65cHgksTh2+eET9ZLPLwZ7qQuL4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyc2TGAvrzPXu3htUNMVKWXPmcOOr=pkqvXHj5imr0nJMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ+eEW71DvCr8nmLjRFW03RJWLLJT_0eSd-u2AuD9StrA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009901d83fc9$409f2ea0$c1dd8be0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] emotional deficits in sci-fi

 

>?I sure would like to read some modern scifi in which people act more like people.  In meeting aliens some people would have heart attacks. 

 

>? Know any good new books?   bill w

 

Not new, but Enders Game is an example of scifi where the hero has feelings.

 

Regarding heart attacks: in most cases, the hero is a young person.  Regardless of the scale of adrenaline rush, they are unlikely to either faint or have a heart attack.  

 

Meeting an alien: on this planet, we occasionally come face to face with a beast we know damn well is capable and willing to do us harm.  We neither faint nor perish.  We get away if possible.  The beast most likely to cause either of those would be (I suppose) a snake.  I have seen plenty, some having been a bad surprise, but none caused me to perish.

 

If we were to meet an alien, it is unclear if it has bad intentions, but I would vaguely assume not.  Reasoning: if it is highly capable of causing harm, good chance it has advanced skills in detecting prey, in which case it know about me before I knew about it.  If it wanted to cause me harm, it would have already done so by the time I discovered its presence.

 

In Enders Game, Ender realizes before coming face to face with the alien that he?  Well, I won?t spoil it.  Good story.

 

spike

 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Mar 24 22:59:03 2022
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 17:59:03 -0500
Subject: [ExI] emotional deficits in sci-fi
In-Reply-To: <009901d83fc9$409f2ea0$c1dd8be0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbKkD-vveen=4dd6E65cHgksTh2+eET9ZLPLwZ7qQuL4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyc2TGAvrzPXu3htUNMVKWXPmcOOr=pkqvXHj5imr0nJMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ+eEW71DvCr8nmLjRFW03RJWLLJT_0eSd-u2AuD9StrA@mail.gmail.com>
 <009901d83fc9$409f2ea0$c1dd8be0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZqgs9uDLwRe0bXU0pMfuso4OPEVKDAx9tx3-q+ss=E1A@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks, Spike.  I have read the Enders series more than once.  Ender turned
out to be a saint, and would have been killed by many people had they known
that he had a cocoon queen of the antlike people and had let it loose where
it thrived and multiplied.  OK, so the young heroes don't have heart
attacks, but some others might at least have anxiety attacks for some
realistic reactions.

One reason I like scifi is that all the books I have ever read had happy
endings.  Maybe some modern ones don't.  I will avoid them if I know.
 bill w

On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 4:53 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] emotional deficits in sci-fi
>
>
>
> >?I sure would like to read some modern scifi in which people act more
> like people.  In meeting aliens some people would have heart attacks.
>
>
>
> >? Know any good new books?   bill w
>
>
>
> Not new, but Enders Game is an example of scifi where the hero has
> feelings.
>
>
>
> Regarding heart attacks: in most cases, the hero is a young person.
> Regardless of the scale of adrenaline rush, they are unlikely to either
> faint or have a heart attack.
>
>
>
> Meeting an alien: on this planet, we occasionally come face to face with a
> beast we know damn well is capable and willing to do us harm.  We neither
> faint nor perish.  We get away if possible.  The beast most likely to cause
> either of those would be (I suppose) a snake.  I have seen plenty, some
> having been a bad surprise, but none caused me to perish.
>
>
>
> If we were to meet an alien, it is unclear if it has bad intentions, but I
> would vaguely assume not.  Reasoning: if it is highly capable of causing
> harm, good chance it has advanced skills in detecting prey, in which case
> it know about me before I knew about it.  If it wanted to cause me harm, it
> would have already done so by the time I discovered its presence.
>
>
>
> In Enders Game, Ender realizes before coming face to face with the alien
> that he?  Well, I won?t spoil it.  Good story.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Fri Mar 25 12:44:47 2022
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 06:44:47 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Another very unusual number 1/137
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjipSHs1qbhGJTpQr9tt422TTDMXZgzP=jUocF-jZRang@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjipSHs1qbhGJTpQr9tt422TTDMXZgzP=jUocF-jZRang@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-ontL64-uqWP8cWXZyfSdRyLUNtZb_fVv-CwXchZHDJN=8w@mail.gmail.com>

Very interesting,, thanks for that.


On Thu, Mar 24, 2022, 12:57 PM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Life as we know it would not exist without this highly unusual number
> By Paul Sutter      published 24 March 2022
>
> <https://www.space.com/fine-structure-constant-universe-mystery>
>
> Quotes:
> The fine-structure constant is a seemingly random number with no units
> or dimensions, which has cropped up in so many places in physics, and
> seems to control one of the most fundamental interactions in the
> universe.
>
> Its name is the fine-structure constant, and it's a measure of the
> strength of the interaction between charged particles and the
> electromagnetic force. The current estimate of the fine-structure
> constant is 0.007 297 352 5693, with an uncertainty of 11 on the last
> two digits. The number is easier to remember by its inverse,
> approximately 1/137.
>
> If it had any other value, life as we know it would be impossible. And
> yet we have no idea where it comes from.
> ---------
>
> Also see: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-structure_constant>
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Mar 25 13:09:11 2022
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 13:09:11 +0000
Subject: [ExI] US population changes in 2021
Message-ID: <CAL_armgiDYcU1mfLu0e0zoUWvuc06WCkmWXvP5nwmHAzReG3Bw@mail.gmail.com>

Over Two-Thirds of the Nation?s Counties Had Natural Decrease in 2021
March 24, 2022

<https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2022/population-estimates-counties-decrease.html>

Quotes:
COVID-19 pandemic's impact on births and deaths results in a record
number of counties experiencing natural decrease. Natural decrease
occurs when there are more deaths than births in a population over a
given time period.  In 2021, fewer births, an aging population and
increased mortality ? intensified by the COVID-19
pandemic--contributed to a rise in natural decrease.

In 2021, all counties in Delaware, Maine, New Hampshire and Rhode
Island experienced natural decrease. Some counties also experienced
population declines attributable to migration. Counties with net
international migration loss (more people moving out of than into the
country), were most frequently found in California (41.4%), Oregon
(27.8%) and Mississippi (23.2%). States with the highest percentages
of counties with net domestic migration loss (people moving from one
area to another within the United States) were Alaska (80.0%),
Louisiana (71.9%) and Illinois (65.7%).

Most of the nation?s counties ? 2,063 or 65.6% -- experienced positive
domestic migration overall from 2020 to 2021. Arizona?s Maricopa
County gained the most (46,866) residents from domestic migration,
followed by Riverside County, California (31,251), and Collin County,
Texas (30,191). Los Angeles County, California, experienced the
greatest net domestic migration loss (179,757 residents), followed by
New York County, New York (113,642).
-----------------------

There is also a map showing the population changes and more detail in
the article.
One suggestion is that people are moving away from areas with high
taxes and high housing costs.

BillK


From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Mar 25 15:44:48 2022
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 15:44:48 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Electric unicycles save gas on commuting!
Message-ID: <CAL_armgGao0Fz2C4LARxmsSqSqV4c-E0UO=zXkgRusdLXnjUKg@mail.gmail.com>

Man touts electric unicycle as answer to high gas prices
24 March 2022

<https://eu.heraldnews.com/story/news/local/2022/03/23/fall-river-man-says-his-electric-unicycle-can-help-replace-cars/7126302001/>

Quotes:
FALL RIVER ? With gas prices causing some serious headaches at the
pump, some drivers may now be looking for an alternative. With his
electric unicycle, Fall River resident Rick Madeira is ahead of the
game.
?It literally takes me four minutes to get to work, versus about 8
minutes in a vehicle,? he said.
He?s allowed to ride it on the sidewalk, but usually sticks to the
road, keeping to the shoulder when possible to avoid cars. The
unicycle?s small size means he can move to the front of the line at
red lights like cyclists, which saves him lots of time, he said.
---------------

These electric unicycles are self-balancing (like a Segway) and
controlled by body movements. But they still need a bit of practice to
master the technique.  :)

BillK


From jasonresch at gmail.com  Fri Mar 25 19:18:14 2022
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 15:18:14 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Another very unusual number 1/137
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjipSHs1qbhGJTpQr9tt422TTDMXZgzP=jUocF-jZRang@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjipSHs1qbhGJTpQr9tt422TTDMXZgzP=jUocF-jZRang@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+BCJUhp3ub+UuYC=V2H3JBpePFdbwa==Hqa9VaRdYr8JeP8zw@mail.gmail.com>

Strangely almost every dimensionless constant, particle mass, even the
dimensionality of space time, happens to falls in a narrow of range, beyond
which life as we know it would have no chance in this universe. I write
about all of these known coincidences here:

https://alwaysasking.com/is-the-universe-fine-tuned/

Jason

On Thu, Mar 24, 2022, 2:58 PM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Life as we know it would not exist without this highly unusual number
> By Paul Sutter      published 24 March 2022
>
> <https://www.space.com/fine-structure-constant-universe-mystery>
>
> Quotes:
> The fine-structure constant is a seemingly random number with no units
> or dimensions, which has cropped up in so many places in physics, and
> seems to control one of the most fundamental interactions in the
> universe.
>
> Its name is the fine-structure constant, and it's a measure of the
> strength of the interaction between charged particles and the
> electromagnetic force. The current estimate of the fine-structure
> constant is 0.007 297 352 5693, with an uncertainty of 11 on the last
> two digits. The number is easier to remember by its inverse,
> approximately 1/137.
>
> If it had any other value, life as we know it would be impossible. And
> yet we have no idea where it comes from.
> ---------
>
> Also see: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-structure_constant>
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Mar 25 19:33:41 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:33:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Another very unusual number 1/137
In-Reply-To: <CA+BCJUhp3ub+UuYC=V2H3JBpePFdbwa==Hqa9VaRdYr8JeP8zw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjipSHs1qbhGJTpQr9tt422TTDMXZgzP=jUocF-jZRang@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUhp3ub+UuYC=V2H3JBpePFdbwa==Hqa9VaRdYr8JeP8zw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002301d8407f$3c742ae0$b55c80a0$@rainier66.com>

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Jason Resch via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] Another very unusual number 1/137

 

Strangely almost every dimensionless constant, particle mass, even the dimensionality of space time, happens to falls in a narrow of range, beyond which life as we know it would have no chance in this universe. I write about all of these known coincidences here:

 

https://alwaysasking.com/is-the-universe-fine-tuned/

 

Jason

 

On Thu, Mar 24, 2022, 2:58 PM BillK via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

Life as we know it would not exist without this highly unusual number
By Paul Sutter      published 24 March 2022

<https://www.space.com/fine-structure-constant-universe-mystery>

Quotes:
?---------

Also see: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-structure_constant>

BillK
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

 

 

 

 

 

Cool article Jason, thanks.  Very well written.  

 

As soon as we are backed into the corner of ??incredible luck, divine intervention, or otherwise?? we can be confident the answer is otherwise.  The constants you mention must be somehow locked to each other for instance, or there is some fundamental not-understood reason why they must be the value they are.  There are still scientific mysteries we don?t understand, and there are still mathematical mysteries.

 

Thru all this, we keep getting back to that notion that our existence, our perception, our everything is a simulation of some kind.  Of course that doesn?t answer the obvious questions: who wrote it, running on what, etc.  But it would kinda explain why there are still these kinds of mysteries, such as why the fine structure constant and the way gravity works seem to be in perfect harmony.

 

That we got this far down here into history and still don?t know these things really pisses me off.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From jasonresch at gmail.com  Fri Mar 25 20:43:07 2022
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 16:43:07 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Another very unusual number 1/137
In-Reply-To: <002301d8407f$3c742ae0$b55c80a0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armjipSHs1qbhGJTpQr9tt422TTDMXZgzP=jUocF-jZRang@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUhp3ub+UuYC=V2H3JBpePFdbwa==Hqa9VaRdYr8JeP8zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <002301d8407f$3c742ae0$b55c80a0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CA+BCJUjHnNTQcXgi8K7ZNANaoKwjhVuNpenF9sDDxFR+MQgV-Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Mar 25, 2022, 3:34 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *Jason Resch via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Another very unusual number 1/137
>
>
>
> Strangely almost every dimensionless constant, particle mass, even the
> dimensionality of space time, happens to falls in a narrow of range, beyond
> which life as we know it would have no chance in this universe. I write
> about all of these known coincidences here:
>
>
>
> https://alwaysasking.com/is-the-universe-fine-tuned/
>
>
>
> Jason
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 24, 2022, 2:58 PM BillK via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Life as we know it would not exist without this highly unusual number
> By Paul Sutter      published 24 March 2022
>
> <https://www.space.com/fine-structure-constant-universe-mystery>
>
> Quotes:
> ?---------
>
> Also see: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-structure_constant>
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Cool article Jason, thanks.  Very well written.
>
>
>

Thanks!

As soon as we are backed into the corner of ??incredible luck, divine
> intervention, or otherwise?? we can be confident the answer is otherwise.
>
Yes, as Martin Rees describes the trilemma:

Coincidence, Providence, or Multiverse

Multiverse fitting in for "otherwise".

I do some Bayesian analysis at the end to try to get closer to an answer.


The constants you mention must be somehow locked to each other for
> instance, or there is some fundamental not-understood reason why they must
> be the value they are.  There are still scientific mysteries we don?t
> understand, and there are still mathematical mysteries.
>
>
>
> Thru all this, we keep getting back to that notion that our existence, our
> perception, our everything is a simulation of some kind.  Of course that
> doesn?t answer the obvious questions: who wrote it, running on what, etc.
> But it would kinda explain why there are still these kinds of mysteries,
> such as why the fine structure constant and the way gravity works seem to
> be in perfect harmony.
>
>
>
> That we got this far down here into history and still don?t know these
> things really pisses me off.
>
>
>


I'm not sure that we can know, as I'm not sure there is necessarily even
one answer, for example, if reality is "big enough" then we are both within
and not within a computer simulation, as some of our (infinite)
incarnations would be in primitive physical universes, while other
incarnations would exist in silico (or equivalent computational substrate),
not to mention those that may exist in primitive platonic/mathematical
computations.

By Church-Turing Thesis, no computation/program can ever be certain of
(know) what its underlying hardware is. This is the property that makes
virtual machines and emulators possible (if you've ever played with such
things).

Jason

>
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From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu  Sat Mar 26 03:12:08 2022
From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera)
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 23:12:08 -0400
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <011201d83b32$d3c7a630$7b56f290$@rainier66.com>
References: <011201d83b32$d3c7a630$7b56f290$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <497940D5-5AED-4973-9863-CBB4F30FB6C6@alumni.virginia.edu>

Sorry to jump in late here. But I?ve got 2 cents to throw in. 

I am a scientifically trained psychotherapist who is also a subject matter expert in psychedelics (among other things). I am aware of colleagues that use them underground in therapy. They are a small minority. Very few therapists are rogue like that in the US. The industry of legal psychedelic therapy, as in ayahuasca and synthetic psilocybin, that is developing is a whole other animal I?m not addressing here. I?m talking about lsd, mdma, and psilocybin in individual psychotherapy sessions with the therapist as a guide and doing processing often of trauma. This is illegal but done in the US, driven by word of mouth and promoted by the people helped this way. 

I am also aware of some very smart people who use psychedelics. They are lawyers, financial people, academics, IT people. They do write textbooks, software, policy, and influence culture at large in multiple ways. 

The Apple computer?s development was heavily influenced by psychedelics based on what I?ve read. 

I know nothing about the research literature in psych re psychedelics. Probably not a lot of it because of legalities.  But surely someone has tested people who were tripping with some standard tests and such, and could verify your assertion about thinking faster.  

I?m well versed in these areas. In the 1950s and 60s there was widespread academic research within Psychology Departments with psychedelics at many prestigious schools and all the Ivy Leagues. Creativity, treating addiction, accelerated learning, preventing criminal recidivism, ?mind control,? and more were studied. CIA-sponsored research in particular was unethical at times and didn?t always obtain informed consent from participants (often naive undergrads). That was the dark side. But this period was a good run with rich scientific data obtained, articles and books written. And then a cultural revolution followed when the drugs left the labs and retreats and made their way to parties and the music scene. Kids dropped out of college, rejected social mores, started burning their draft cards. The Establishment backlash was severe especially in the context of the Vietnam conflict where psychedelics, hippies, and the anti war movement became intertwined as far they were concerned. The War on Drugs, mandatory minimums, new ways for racists to oppress resulted. We are only now climbing out of that mess and the damage done (astronomical amounts money thrown at the ?problem,? broken families, black market violence, militarization of the police, corrupting of the police by forfeiture incentives, suppression and distortion of the knowledge gained from psychedelics, a dulling or slowing down the pace of our collective intelligence increase I?d argue, etc.). 

Elon Musk is open about his psychedelic use, or people have told on him, I forget which. But I?d suggest it?s not a coincidence he has come up with so many novel ideas, connections, ways about thinking about things differently. I?d argue we are collectively better off as a result and could benefit from more smart people intelligently using psychedelics and more people making themselves smart by using psychedelics. That is not what is being promoted however in this burgeoning wave of new legal psychedelic entrepreneurialism happening. See 
https://www.psymposia.com/corporadelic/ for more on that topic. There are some nefarious actors out there motivated by greed and/or power trying to exploit psychedelics going mainstream. Meanwhile reputable folks like https://maps.org/ continue the scientific mission to improve mental health treatment at least with these powerful tools. 

Some people should stay away from psychedelics too. They are not for everyone. They can trigger psychotic episodes in those predisposed to severe mental illness and crush the reality, shattered the worldview of many content people who would rather not think for themselves or see the world differently. They can cause significant dissonance and psychological discomfort for the I?ll-prepared or unguided. To treat them as playthings is a mistake. They are sacred tools that can and always have lead to visionary, mystical experiences that are core to our identity and purpose, to understate them. We also evolved along side them which I don?t think is a coincidence. Terrence McKenna argued our primate ancestors taking psychedelic mushrooms triggered an evolutionary divergence, this branch-off, to what we are now from more primitive primates. 

-Henry

> On Mar 18, 2022, at 9:44 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> ?
>  
>  
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat
> Subject: Re: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> >?Why are you so against it?  I don't really understand.  Upbringing?  It seems very anti-learning?
>  
> Could be early perceptions are influencing my attitude.  When I was a child, rock stars seemed to be dropping dead regularly.  Judy Garland (ja I know she wasn?t a rock star, but liked her voice),  Alan Wilson, Jimi Hendrix and Janis Joplin were all in the same few weeks as I recall, Jim Morrison was a little later, Mama Cass they half-ass tried to tell us she choked on a ham sandwich, but we suspect it was dope or perhaps heart failure.  It did seem like drugs were taking a lotta stars, and ja I realize acid ODs are not fatal usually but in any case, I do admire your openness and honesty about the risks, going crazy and vast nightmare realms.  That last part has a poetic ring to it, but I would rather read about it in a poem than live it.
>  
> Besides that? it suffices me to hear your description of it, as I play chess.
>  
> Regarding that last part, it would be an interesting experiment, for that would give us a ton of data.  Reasoning: the win/loss number is only a tiny fraction of the data available.  The computer analyzes the games and can tell us accuracy, time per move, how many blunders, how many brilliant ideas and so forth, so we could get about 30 good data points per 10 minute game.  We could collect a pile of evidence easily.  As I said, I will go nowhere near the stuff, any of it.  But I will interpret data if someone else wants to give it a go.
>  
> spike
>  
>  
>  
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com  Sat Mar 26 04:39:46 2022
From: ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com (ilsa)
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 21:39:46 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <497940D5-5AED-4973-9863-CBB4F30FB6C6@alumni.virginia.edu>
References: <011201d83b32$d3c7a630$7b56f290$@rainier66.com>
 <497940D5-5AED-4973-9863-CBB4F30FB6C6@alumni.virginia.edu>
Message-ID: <CAN3PQpE7dP=e9UaWE=UQPu0r6r_ZiGh7pV_FH+ZNj-BdDhzeGQ@mail.gmail.com>

Jumping in with a song and a story, and a few cents.

Either before or after I was 16, I went to a talk at Wharton school
basement, that brought the doctors using LSD for alcoholic addiction
treatment.

I wonder if anybody has read their research?

 I only met the guys back when I was a teenager and I remember a lot of
what they said I never read their work.

 They're the guys who labeled all of the sections of taking psychedelics.
Sometimes labeling becomes a projection.

I'm a little old lady at the end of my life and I would love to be part of
a a small amount of psychedelics and I love the recipes that are included
in this thread but I myself am unable to cook them up.

I need to have a sugar daddy for that. I was told that the armed forces
hospital in Vallejo, CA. are using psychedelics for mental health. Two
years ago, before the pandemic, there was a call for applications who
wanted to be part of that psychedelic group.

I am not an academic, please forgive my general communication and stream of
talking rather than well constructed sentences. I would love to have a
group trip thing, go out and fly together.

Smile, ilsa bartlett

On Fri, Mar 25, 2022, 8:13 PM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Sorry to jump in late here. But I?ve got 2 cents to throw in.
>
> I am a scientifically trained psychotherapist who is also a subject matter
> expert in psychedelics (among other things). I am aware of colleagues that
> use them underground in therapy. They are a small minority. Very few
> therapists are rogue like that in the US. The industry of legal psychedelic
> therapy, as in ayahuasca and synthetic psilocybin, that is developing is a
> whole other animal I?m not addressing here. I?m talking about lsd, mdma,
> and psilocybin in individual psychotherapy sessions with the therapist as a
> guide and doing processing often of trauma. This is illegal but done in the
> US, driven by word of mouth and promoted by the people helped this way.
>
> I am also aware of some very smart people who use psychedelics. They are
> lawyers, financial people, academics, IT people. They do write textbooks,
> software, policy, and influence culture at large in multiple ways.
>
> The Apple computer?s development was heavily influenced by psychedelics
> based on what I?ve read.
>
> I know nothing about the research literature in psych re psychedelics.
> Probably not a lot of it because of legalities.  But surely someone has
> tested people who were tripping with some standard tests and such, and
> could verify your assertion about thinking faster.
>
> I?m well versed in these areas. In the 1950s and 60s there was widespread
> academic research within Psychology Departments with psychedelics at many
> prestigious schools and all the Ivy Leagues. Creativity, treating
> addiction, accelerated learning, preventing criminal recidivism, ?mind
> control,? and more were studied. CIA-sponsored research in particular was
> unethical at times and didn?t always obtain informed consent from
> participants (often naive undergrads). That was the dark side. But this
> period was a good run with rich scientific data obtained, articles and
> books written. And then a cultural revolution followed when the drugs left
> the labs and retreats and made their way to parties and the music scene.
> Kids dropped out of college, rejected social mores, started burning their
> draft cards. The Establishment backlash was severe especially in the
> context of the Vietnam conflict where psychedelics, hippies, and the anti
> war movement became intertwined as far they were concerned. The War on
> Drugs, mandatory minimums, new ways for racists to oppress resulted. We are
> only now climbing out of that mess and the damage done (astronomical
> amounts money thrown at the ?problem,? broken families, black market
> violence, militarization of the police, corrupting of the police by
> forfeiture incentives, suppression and distortion of the knowledge gained
> from psychedelics, a dulling or slowing down the pace of our collective
> intelligence increase I?d argue, etc.).
>
> Elon Musk is open about his psychedelic use, or people have told on him, I
> forget which. But I?d suggest it?s not a coincidence he has come up with so
> many novel ideas, connections, ways about thinking about things
> differently. I?d argue we are collectively better off as a result and could
> benefit from more smart people intelligently using psychedelics and more
> people making themselves smart by using psychedelics. That is not what is
> being promoted however in this burgeoning wave of new legal psychedelic
> entrepreneurialism happening. See
> https://www.psymposia.com/corporadelic/ for more on that topic. There are
> some nefarious actors out there motivated by greed and/or power trying to
> exploit psychedelics going mainstream. Meanwhile reputable folks like
> https://maps.org/ continue the scientific mission to improve mental
> health treatment at least with these powerful tools.
>
> Some people should stay away from psychedelics too. They are not for
> everyone. They can trigger psychotic episodes in those predisposed to
> severe mental illness and crush the reality, shattered the worldview of
> many content people who would rather not think for themselves or see the
> world differently. They can cause significant dissonance and psychological
> discomfort for the I?ll-prepared or unguided. To treat them as playthings
> is a mistake. They are sacred tools that can and always have lead to
> visionary, mystical experiences that are core to our identity and purpose,
> to understate them. We also evolved along side them which I don?t think is
> a coincidence. Terrence McKenna argued our primate ancestors taking
> psychedelic mushrooms triggered an evolutionary divergence, this
> branch-off, to what we are now from more primitive primates.
>
> -Henry
>
> On Mar 18, 2022, at 9:44 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> ?
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *Will Steinberg via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >?Why are you so against it?  I don't really understand.  Upbringing?  It
> seems very anti-learning?
>
>
>
> Could be early perceptions are influencing my attitude.  When I was a
> child, rock stars seemed to be dropping dead regularly.  Judy Garland (ja I
> know she wasn?t a rock star, but liked her voice),  Alan Wilson, Jimi
> Hendrix and Janis Joplin were all in the same few weeks as I recall, Jim
> Morrison was a little later, Mama Cass they half-ass tried to tell us she
> choked on a ham sandwich, but we suspect it was dope or perhaps heart
> failure.  It did seem like drugs were taking a lotta stars, and ja I
> realize acid ODs are not fatal usually but in any case, I do admire your
> openness and honesty about the risks, going crazy and vast nightmare
> realms.  That last part has a poetic ring to it, but I would rather read
> about it in a poem than live it.
>
>
>
> Besides that? it suffices me to hear your description of it, as I play
> chess.
>
>
>
> Regarding that last part, it would be an interesting experiment, for that
> would give us a ton of data.  Reasoning: the win/loss number is only a tiny
> fraction of the data available.  The computer analyzes the games and can
> tell us accuracy, time per move, how many blunders, how many brilliant
> ideas and so forth, so we could get about 30 good data points per 10 minute
> game.  We could collect a pile of evidence easily.  As I said, I will go
> nowhere near the stuff, any of it.  But I will interpret data if someone
> else wants to give it a go.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Mar 26 04:47:53 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 21:47:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <497940D5-5AED-4973-9863-CBB4F30FB6C6@alumni.virginia.edu>
References: <011201d83b32$d3c7a630$7b56f290$@rainier66.com>
 <497940D5-5AED-4973-9863-CBB4F30FB6C6@alumni.virginia.edu>
Message-ID: <004201d840cc$a7f7a380$f7e6ea80$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of Henry Rivera via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??

 

?

 

>?Elon Musk is open about his psychedelic use, or people have told on him? That is not what is being promoted however in this burgeoning wave of new legal psychedelic entrepreneurialism happening?-Henry

 

 

Thanks Henry.

 

I had proposed a series of chess games, starting with evenly matched opponents and one of them (not me) taking something.  I predicted what would happen:  I would kick her butt until it was between her shoulder blades.  I stand by that prediction, but after I wrote that, it occurred to me how obvious is the idea.  All my ideas are so obvious, I can just always assume it has been done.  Damn.

 

OK, now all we need to do is find who has done it and how the games went.  Note that we get a lot more data than just the win/loss number.  Data is generated with every move.  If the tripper is making mistakes but simultaneously finding brilliant ideas, we can get that info.  We have online resources on Chess.com, which automatically records and analyzes everything.  It would be an easy test to do, and furthermore? it would encourage the use of much smaller (and presumably safer) doses.  Reasoning: if any opponent takes too much and has any illusions about the colors of the squares, do let me assure you, it will end up between her shoulder blades.

 

But? with a tenth of that dose, then what happens?  I don?t know.  Anyone have guesses?

 

spike

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Mar 26 13:22:53 2022
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 08:22:53 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <004201d840cc$a7f7a380$f7e6ea80$@rainier66.com>
References: <011201d83b32$d3c7a630$7b56f290$@rainier66.com>
 <497940D5-5AED-4973-9863-CBB4F30FB6C6@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <004201d840cc$a7f7a380$f7e6ea80$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEat9qFXSHxZhZVhkhXTahCU0+bfN==bRgAxGROHUDbs=g@mail.gmail.com>

My experience with weed:  I have an enormous amount of reverse tolerance
after 50 years of use. Also, the weed is far stronger now.  1/2 a pinch
hitter does me in.

If I am reading a book, no matter how light or heavy, fiction or nonfiction
I have to put it down when the weed hits.  I might stay on the same
paragraph for several minutes and not understand it.

It intensifies my pain- no medical marijuana for this boy.  It puts me in a
good mood, where I enjoy all of my pleasures, other than reading,
significantly more than when I am normal - normal for me, anyway.  Music is
transcendental.  Food is an Epicurean's epitome.  Sex is Eros's dream (in
fact I cannot have sex without weed - but weed plus Cialis at 20 mg. is
mind-blowing, better than before my prostate surgery).  I wonder how many
medical marijuana users here in Mississippi will find that out and wonder
why they have not been partaking all these years.

I do think differently.  I come up with inventions that are so
contradictory to the laws of physics that I ought to be celebrated
somewhere for the sheer idiocy of  them (wings for trucks to lighten the
load, for ex.).  Maybe a Rube Goldberg type of cartoon based on my
inventions.

There have been a gigantic number of lies and false data generated by our
past governments ('Reefer Madness' was a tiny part).  All gov. studies
showed ill effects.  All independent studies showed none.  (I don't think
that there is never none, but I do think it's the safest drug of any kind
on the planet.  Some people report hangovers.  Not me.  I did not have
hangovers when I drank a fifth of vodka a day.)

What has happened to this poor drug is massive xenophobia.   It's
different.  We are not used to it.  It could cause people to go wild,
forget their morals, kill people, and so on.  (much like what was said of
alcohol in the early 20th century).  Conservatives are, as usual, to blame
for all of it.  Superstitious fears, based on no data at all, or government
data.    bill w

On Fri, Mar 25, 2022 at 11:49 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *?*> *On Behalf Of *Henry Rivera via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
>
>
>
> ?
>
>
>
> >?Elon Musk is open about his psychedelic use, or people have told on him?
> That is not what is being promoted however in this burgeoning wave of new
> legal psychedelic entrepreneurialism happening?-Henry
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks Henry.
>
>
>
> I had proposed a series of chess games, starting with evenly matched
> opponents and one of them (not me) taking something.  I predicted what
> would happen:  I would kick her butt until it was between her shoulder
> blades.  I stand by that prediction, but after I wrote that, it occurred to
> me how obvious is the idea.  All my ideas are so obvious, I can just always
> assume it has been done.  Damn.
>
>
>
> OK, now all we need to do is find who has done it and how the games went.
> Note that we get a lot more data than just the win/loss number.  Data is
> generated with every move.  If the tripper is making mistakes but
> simultaneously finding brilliant ideas, we can get that info.  We have
> online resources on Chess.com, which automatically records and analyzes
> everything.  It would be an easy test to do, and furthermore? it would
> encourage the use of much smaller (and presumably safer) doses.  Reasoning:
> if any opponent takes too much and has any illusions about the colors of
> the squares, do let me assure you, it will end up between her shoulder
> blades.
>
>
>
> But? with a tenth of that dose, then what happens?  I don?t know.  Anyone
> have guesses?
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Mar 26 15:21:52 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 08:21:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <004201d840cc$a7f7a380$f7e6ea80$@rainier66.com>
References: <011201d83b32$d3c7a630$7b56f290$@rainier66.com>
 <497940D5-5AED-4973-9863-CBB4F30FB6C6@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <004201d840cc$a7f7a380$f7e6ea80$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <009b01d84125$38f9f3d0$aaeddb70$@rainier66.com>

 

 

>?From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
Subject: RE: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??

 

?

 

>?after I wrote that, it occurred to me how obvious is the idea.  All my ideas are so obvious, I can just always assume it has been done.  Damn.

 

>?OK, now all we need to do is find who has done it and how the games went.  Note that we get a lot more data than just the win/loss number.  Data is generated with every move.  If the tripper is making mistakes but simultaneously finding brilliant ideas, we can get that info?

 

 

Regarding Reefer Madness, that party scene compelled millions to try marijuana.  So many were misled to believe that smoking a single reefer could enable them to play wild cool jazz piano.  Well hell, if a reefer could really do that, of course we would smoke them, even I would.  Reliable sources report that it didn?t work.  But that Hot Fingers reefer cat be throwin down some hot jazz licks in the movie, ya gotta hand it to him.  He be TESTIFYIN on that keyboard.  Wish I could do that.

 

(138) Hot Fingers - YouTube <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eauSPoxI0gY> 

 

Regarding the psychedelic notion of psychedelics enabling faster and more creative thinking, below is an example of a computer analysis of a game I played yesterday against a guy who is more than 100 Elo points above me, so I wasn?t even trying for a win, kinda hoping to end the day on a draw if possible.  I went with a well-worn Giuoco Pianissimo line as black, but my 1930 Elo opponent was having none of that draw nonsense.

 

I made a drawish play on move 12, which you see there on the graph.  The computer called it a blunder.  I knew it was weak and cowardly, but thought it was my best bet against this monster.  He replied with an aggressive blunder, which I spotted and exploited, putting me in good shape for at least a draw.  I kept my cool, grinding away on his ass in a surprisingly accurate 49 move marathon for the win.

 



 

Oh, life is goooood.

 

This is the kind of data we can get free, if anyone wishes to experiment with psychedelic performance enhancers.  I volunteer to be the straight guy.  I have a piano you can borrow if you don?t play chess.  Before we do that however, consider that chess, like any other sport, is one in which the adherents will do whatever it takes, whaaateeeever it takes, anything, to play better.  We get far too wrapped up in it and want to do better, for we love the game.  This leads me to the speculation that every chemical brain enhancement up to and including such absurdities as devouring the semen of grandmasters, has been tried and has failed.

 

Granted I could have stopped writing before that particular revolting example, but you get the picture.  Chess has been played in its current form for over 500 years in every country on the planet, and is a reasonable proxy for measuring brain performance for those who play.  The reason I am so bold with the challenge is my complete confidence that had there been any such effective chemical therapy, we would know all about it by now.

 

spike

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Mar 26 15:56:09 2022
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 10:56:09 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <009b01d84125$38f9f3d0$aaeddb70$@rainier66.com>
References: <011201d83b32$d3c7a630$7b56f290$@rainier66.com>
 <497940D5-5AED-4973-9863-CBB4F30FB6C6@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <004201d840cc$a7f7a380$f7e6ea80$@rainier66.com>
 <009b01d84125$38f9f3d0$aaeddb70$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY_NTdJioSv9_EWe7LfLphWW4OV_7O4TW85jm4voD030A@mail.gmail.com>

Gene Krupa was addicted to heroin and insisted that he played better under
it.  So someone challenged him:  tape a session with and without heroin.
He admitted that he played better straight.

I played a variety of instruments but never wanted to do them under the
influence.  You can put lipstick on a pig............  I want to hear great
music played by great performers.   And I do.There are 1500 male
grandmasters and 40 female ones.  Can we say that men are better at spatial
things?   Yes - we are very spacial. bill w

On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 10:24 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *>?From:* spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com>
> *Subject:* RE: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
>
>
>
> ?
>
>
>
> >?after I wrote that, it occurred to me how obvious is the idea.  All my
> ideas are so obvious, I can just always assume it has been done.  Damn.
>
>
>
> >?OK, now all we need to do is find who has done it and how the games
> went.  Note that we get a lot more data than just the win/loss number.
> Data is generated with every move.  If the tripper is making mistakes but
> simultaneously finding brilliant ideas, we can get that info?
>
>
>
>
>
> Regarding Reefer Madness, that party scene compelled millions to try
> marijuana.  So many were misled to believe that smoking a single reefer
> could enable them to play wild cool jazz piano.  Well hell, if a reefer
> could really do that, of course we would smoke them, even I would.
> Reliable sources report that it didn?t work.  But that Hot Fingers reefer
> cat be throwin down some hot jazz licks in the movie, ya gotta hand it to
> him.  He be TESTIFYIN on that keyboard.  Wish I could do that.
>
>
>
> (138) Hot Fingers - YouTube <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eauSPoxI0gY>
>
>
>
> Regarding the psychedelic notion of psychedelics enabling faster and more
> creative thinking, below is an example of a computer analysis of a game I
> played yesterday against a guy who is more than 100 Elo points above me, so
> I wasn?t even trying for a win, kinda hoping to end the day on a draw if
> possible.  I went with a well-worn Giuoco Pianissimo line as black, but my
> 1930 Elo opponent was having none of that draw nonsense.
>
>
>
> I made a drawish play on move 12, which you see there on the graph.  The
> computer called it a blunder.  I knew it was weak and cowardly, but thought
> it was my best bet against this monster.  He replied with an aggressive
> blunder, which I spotted and exploited, putting me in good shape for at
> least a draw.  I kept my cool, grinding away on his ass in a surprisingly
> accurate 49 move marathon for the win.
>
>
>
>
>
> Oh, life is goooood.
>
>
>
> This is the kind of data we can get free, if anyone wishes to experiment
> with psychedelic performance enhancers.  I volunteer to be the straight
> guy.  I have a piano you can borrow if you don?t play chess.  Before we do
> that however, consider that chess, like any other sport, is one in which
> the adherents will do whatever it takes, whaaateeeever it takes, anything,
> to play better.  We get far too wrapped up in it and want to do better, for
> we love the game.  This leads me to the speculation that every chemical
> brain enhancement up to and including such absurdities as devouring the
> semen of grandmasters, has been tried and has failed.
>
>
>
> Granted I could have stopped writing before that particular revolting
> example, but you get the picture.  Chess has been played in its current
> form for over 500 years in every country on the planet, and is a reasonable
> proxy for measuring brain performance for those who play.  The reason I am
> so bold with the challenge is my complete confidence that had there been
> any such effective chemical therapy, we would know all about it by now.
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Sat Mar 26 16:04:50 2022
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 12:04:50 -0400
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <004201d840cc$a7f7a380$f7e6ea80$@rainier66.com>
References: <011201d83b32$d3c7a630$7b56f290$@rainier66.com>
 <497940D5-5AED-4973-9863-CBB4F30FB6C6@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <004201d840cc$a7f7a380$f7e6ea80$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyGpi7PvrvLDNeWM8GaGqQLyGK2sAFS2UmGsUB91VCSSXg@mail.gmail.com>

My guess would be that microdosing psychedelics can significantly improve
chess ability for people who already have a good understanding of the
game.  It simply allows you to think more quickly and more expansively--so
I would imagine the idea allows you to think down lines further, and think
of more lines.

Too high a dose would lead you to thinking down TOO many lines and too many
hypotheticals, wasting time, getting caught in the weeds, perhaps thinking
about the history of chess, or the symbolism of the pieces.  Way too high a
dose and you would just be looking at the fractals forming in every
millimeter of the woodgrain of the board.

On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 12:48 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *?*> *On Behalf Of *Henry Rivera via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
>
>
>
> ?
>
>
>
> >?Elon Musk is open about his psychedelic use, or people have told on him?
> That is not what is being promoted however in this burgeoning wave of new
> legal psychedelic entrepreneurialism happening?-Henry
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks Henry.
>
>
>
> I had proposed a series of chess games, starting with evenly matched
> opponents and one of them (not me) taking something.  I predicted what
> would happen:  I would kick her butt until it was between her shoulder
> blades.  I stand by that prediction, but after I wrote that, it occurred to
> me how obvious is the idea.  All my ideas are so obvious, I can just always
> assume it has been done.  Damn.
>
>
>
> OK, now all we need to do is find who has done it and how the games went.
> Note that we get a lot more data than just the win/loss number.  Data is
> generated with every move.  If the tripper is making mistakes but
> simultaneously finding brilliant ideas, we can get that info.  We have
> online resources on Chess.com, which automatically records and analyzes
> everything.  It would be an easy test to do, and furthermore? it would
> encourage the use of much smaller (and presumably safer) doses.  Reasoning:
> if any opponent takes too much and has any illusions about the colors of
> the squares, do let me assure you, it will end up between her shoulder
> blades.
>
>
>
> But? with a tenth of that dose, then what happens?  I don?t know.  Anyone
> have guesses?
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Mar 26 16:15:14 2022
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 16:15:14 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Michio Kaku makes 3 predictions about the future
Message-ID: <CAL_armjaM_kvb_EyTXcmg2dC35EdddoP5yWWSt43mnQxnMf-8Q@mail.gmail.com>

Michio Kaku predicts the future, how we'll build cities on Mars, and
why cancer will one day be like the common cold.
By Scotty Hendricks        March 20, 2022

<https://www.freethink.com/science/michio-kaku-the-future>

Quotes:

How Humanity Will Become an Interplanetary Species
A number of billionaires, scientific thinkers, and those behind the
Artemis program have all independently come to the conclusion that
humanity needs to become a multi-planet species. This idea is nothing
new: Dr. Kaku mentions that he once discussed this with Carl Sagan.

We Will Expand the Brain?s Capabilities
Over the last few decades, there has been an unnoticed but continuous
effort to improve the human body by getting it to work with computers,
and even to replace the body parts that stop working with machines.

We Will Defeat Cancer
Dr. Kaku argues that we are on the verge of finally defeating cancer
once and for all, and sweeping in a new age of scientific discovery
while we?re at it:
?We?re going to have a magic bullet against cancer using nanomedicine.
That is, individual molecules in the cells that can target individual
cancer cells, using nanotechnology.
------------------

I'm doubtful about human cities on the desert planet Mars, but maybe
something can be done with it.......

BillK


From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu  Sat Mar 26 16:49:23 2022
From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera)
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 12:49:23 -0400
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEY_NTdJioSv9_EWe7LfLphWW4OV_7O4TW85jm4voD030A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEY_NTdJioSv9_EWe7LfLphWW4OV_7O4TW85jm4voD030A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <57BFC5DA-FAA2-478E-AB1F-BE1A5F5FF8FD@alumni.virginia.edu>

Quick note just to avoid confusion: Few will argue that opiates are performance enhancing or mind-expanding. My experience is they are mind-numbing and a sedative. 

In contrast, many by now have heard about the famous no-hitter game by Dock Ellis while on LSD (and amphetamines). He was not intending to trip and play ball that day btw. In his own words: https://youtu.be/_vUhSYLRw14

Re. opiates, however, I recommend my psychologist colleague?s best-selling book to everyone, Drug Use for Grown-Ups by Carl Hart, wherein he admits to being a highly functional daily heroin user all while he is a prestigious researcher and Department Chair at Columbia. He shatters stereotypes and preconceptions of what an opiate user looks like. Most don?t know that around 90% of opioid users do not develop the problems that lead to a Dependence (aka addiction) diagnosis. Another way to put this is the vast majority of heroin users do not have impaired functioning and problems related to their use. People who know this are are scared to say it loudly because they say it will lead to more experimentation and use. I disagree as most people I?ve talked to about say they still have no interest in trying heroin after learning this. Same answer if heroin were made legal?most wouldn?t be rushing out to try it. Anyway, Drug Use for Grown-Ups: Chasing Liberty in the Land of Fear is a great book. 

-Henry

> On Mar 26, 2022, at 11:56 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> ?
> Gene Krupa was addicted to heroin and insisted that he played better under it.  So someone challenged him:  tape a session with and without heroin.  He admitted that he played better straight.
> 
> I played a variety of instruments but never wanted to do them under the influence.  You can put lipstick on a pig............  I want to hear great music played by great performers.   And I do.There are 1500 male grandmasters and 40 female ones.  Can we say that men are better at spatial things?   Yes - we are very spacial. bill w
> 
> On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 10:24 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> >?From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
>> Subject: RE: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> ?
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> >?after I wrote that, it occurred to me how obvious is the idea.  All my ideas are so obvious, I can just always assume it has been done.  Damn.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> >?OK, now all we need to do is find who has done it and how the games went.  Note that we get a lot more data than just the win/loss number.  Data is generated with every move.  If the tripper is making mistakes but simultaneously finding brilliant ideas, we can get that info?
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Regarding Reefer Madness, that party scene compelled millions to try marijuana.  So many were misled to believe that smoking a single reefer could enable them to play wild cool jazz piano.  Well hell, if a reefer could really do that, of course we would smoke them, even I would.  Reliable sources report that it didn?t work.  But that Hot Fingers reefer cat be throwin down some hot jazz licks in the movie, ya gotta hand it to him.  He be TESTIFYIN on that keyboard.  Wish I could do that.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> (138) Hot Fingers - YouTube
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Regarding the psychedelic notion of psychedelics enabling faster and more creative thinking, below is an example of a computer analysis of a game I played yesterday against a guy who is more than 100 Elo points above me, so I wasn?t even trying for a win, kinda hoping to end the day on a draw if possible.  I went with a well-worn Giuoco Pianissimo line as black, but my 1930 Elo opponent was having none of that draw nonsense.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> I made a drawish play on move 12, which you see there on the graph.  The computer called it a blunder.  I knew it was weak and cowardly, but thought it was my best bet against this monster.  He replied with an aggressive blunder, which I spotted and exploited, putting me in good shape for at least a draw.  I kept my cool, grinding away on his ass in a surprisingly accurate 49 move marathon for the win.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Oh, life is goooood.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> This is the kind of data we can get free, if anyone wishes to experiment with psychedelic performance enhancers.  I volunteer to be the straight guy.  I have a piano you can borrow if you don?t play chess.  Before we do that however, consider that chess, like any other sport, is one in which the adherents will do whatever it takes, whaaateeeever it takes, anything, to play better.  We get far too wrapped up in it and want to do better, for we love the game.  This leads me to the speculation that every chemical brain enhancement up to and including such absurdities as devouring the semen of grandmasters, has been tried and has failed.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Granted I could have stopped writing before that particular revolting example, but you get the picture.  Chess has been played in its current form for over 500 years in every country on the planet, and is a reasonable proxy for measuring brain performance for those who play.  The reason I am so bold with the challenge is my complete confidence that had there been any such effective chemical therapy, we would know all about it by now.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> spike
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Mar 26 16:54:46 2022
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 09:54:46 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Michio Kaku makes 3 predictions about the future
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjaM_kvb_EyTXcmg2dC35EdddoP5yWWSt43mnQxnMf-8Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjaM_kvb_EyTXcmg2dC35EdddoP5yWWSt43mnQxnMf-8Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRWm7NcqMfsxsPiuC=PUV0gY7RO1edZ3kLUL21VLseQnQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 9:17 AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I'm doubtful about human cities on the desert planet Mars, but maybe
> something can be done with it.......
>

I suspect the less glamorous but far more practical option of orbital
habitats is likely to house a significant portion of humanity before
martian habitats do, if martian habitats ever do.
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Mar 26 17:15:33 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 10:15:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEY_NTdJioSv9_EWe7LfLphWW4OV_7O4TW85jm4voD030A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <011201d83b32$d3c7a630$7b56f290$@rainier66.com>
 <497940D5-5AED-4973-9863-CBB4F30FB6C6@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <004201d840cc$a7f7a380$f7e6ea80$@rainier66.com>
 <009b01d84125$38f9f3d0$aaeddb70$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEY_NTdJioSv9_EWe7LfLphWW4OV_7O4TW85jm4voD030A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004701d84135$1a8510f0$4f8f32d0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??

 

>?Gene Krupa was addicted to heroin and insisted that he played better under it?

 

This is a very common attitude in jazz and rock.  I have firsthand observations (not experience (would experiencing a drug be zeroethhand observations?))  It can cause the musicians to relax and feel the music perhaps, but their technique doesn?t appear to get better.  Jazz has creative improvisation, but I don?t see that improves either.  I agree that drugs would cause musicians to perceive they are doing better, and enjoy their music more.

 

Regarding my link to Hot Fingers from Reefer Madness, I realized after the fact that the video showed Hot before the reefer, but doesn?t show how he did after.  I can?t find a link to Fingers after he stole away to the pantry for a reefer.

 

>?There are 1500 male grandmasters and 40 female ones.  Can we say that men are better at spatial things?

 

Sure can?t Billw.  From what we are now told, we cannot know if we are male or female, so we cannot know if some of the grandmasters are really grandmistresses or if there is any scientifically reproducible way to distinguish.  The XX and XY determining gender business is so old-think, appropriate only to lads our age (or lasses (for we can never be sure (we are told.))) 

 

Just to clarify my own attitude, while freely acknowledging there are transgenders and approving of their freedom to choose their own identity, taking it to the extreme of pretending there are no real differences between men and women, or that we cannot distinguish between the two, is the pinnacle of absurdity.  Through it all, we continue to de-emphasize the one sport in which ?men? and ?women? really do compete on completely equal footing, the fine sport of shooting, all the shooting sports.  Why please?

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Mar 26 17:35:18 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 10:35:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyGpi7PvrvLDNeWM8GaGqQLyGK2sAFS2UmGsUB91VCSSXg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <011201d83b32$d3c7a630$7b56f290$@rainier66.com>
 <497940D5-5AED-4973-9863-CBB4F30FB6C6@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <004201d840cc$a7f7a380$f7e6ea80$@rainier66.com>
 <CAKrqSyGpi7PvrvLDNeWM8GaGqQLyGK2sAFS2UmGsUB91VCSSXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005a01d84137$dd1d95e0$9758c1a0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??

 

>?My guess would be that microdosing psychedelics can significantly improve chess ability for people who already have a good understanding of the game.  It simply allows you to think more quickly and more expansively?? Will

 

 

 

Thanks for that, Will.  I propose we test your theory: I will be the straight guy, cheerfully volunteering to be the victim of some microdosing A-rated player.

 

There is exactly one chemical known to enhance chess ability, freely and nearly universally used: caffeine.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Mar 26 17:43:08 2022
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 12:43:08 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <57BFC5DA-FAA2-478E-AB1F-BE1A5F5FF8FD@alumni.virginia.edu>
References: <CAO+xQEY_NTdJioSv9_EWe7LfLphWW4OV_7O4TW85jm4voD030A@mail.gmail.com>
 <57BFC5DA-FAA2-478E-AB1F-BE1A5F5FF8FD@alumni.virginia.edu>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY25OeeOMw8aWq=8hotFukzoVL=y9OSFcnpsmATx6mGfA@mail.gmail.com>

Well, Henry, let me ask you this:  is there a drug short of being quickly
poisonous that canNOT be used with discretion and care?  I don't think so.
The mindset that gets people in trouble:  if some feels good, more would
feel better.  Speaking only of pure, undiluted drugs.

Off the subject:  I have been following biofeedback for a long time but
lost interest sometime back.  We know that smiling can make good chemicals
release in our brains.  If you follow golf, you will know what I am talking
about:  some go through a variety of twitches and jerks, and looking at the
hole ten times before they hit the ball.  Is it possible that they are
making themselves nervous by doing so?   bill w

On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 11:49 AM Henry Rivera <hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu>
wrote:

> Quick note just to avoid confusion: Few will argue that opiates are
> performance enhancing or mind-expanding. My experience is they are
> mind-numbing and a sedative.
>
> In contrast, many by now have heard about the famous no-hitter game by
> Dock Ellis while on LSD (and amphetamines). He was not intending to trip
> and play ball that day btw. In his own words: https://youtu.be/_vUhSYLRw14
>
> Re. opiates, however, I recommend my psychologist colleague?s best-selling
> book to everyone, Drug Use for Grown-Ups by Carl Hart, wherein he admits to
> being a highly functional daily heroin user all while he is a prestigious
> researcher and Department Chair at Columbia. He shatters stereotypes and
> preconceptions of what an opiate user looks like. Most don?t know that
> around 90% of opioid users do not develop the problems that lead to a
> Dependence (aka addiction) diagnosis. Another way to put this is the vast
> majority of heroin users do not have impaired functioning and problems
> related to their use. People who know this are are scared to say it loudly
> because they say it will lead to more experimentation and use. I disagree
> as most people I?ve talked to about say they still have no interest in
> trying heroin after learning this. Same answer if heroin were made
> legal?most wouldn?t be rushing out to try it. Anyway, Drug Use for
> Grown-Ups: Chasing Liberty in the Land of Fear is a great book.
>
> -Henry
>
> On Mar 26, 2022, at 11:56 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> ?
> Gene Krupa was addicted to heroin and insisted that he played better under
> it.  So someone challenged him:  tape a session with and without heroin.
> He admitted that he played better straight.
>
> I played a variety of instruments but never wanted to do them under the
> influence.  You can put lipstick on a pig............  I want to hear great
> music played by great performers.   And I do.There are 1500 male
> grandmasters and 40 female ones.  Can we say that men are better at spatial
> things?   Yes - we are very spacial. bill w
>
> On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 10:24 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *>?From:* spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com>
>> *Subject:* RE: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
>>
>>
>>
>> ?
>>
>>
>>
>> >?after I wrote that, it occurred to me how obvious is the idea.  All my
>> ideas are so obvious, I can just always assume it has been done.  Damn.
>>
>>
>>
>> >?OK, now all we need to do is find who has done it and how the games
>> went.  Note that we get a lot more data than just the win/loss number.
>> Data is generated with every move.  If the tripper is making mistakes but
>> simultaneously finding brilliant ideas, we can get that info?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Regarding Reefer Madness, that party scene compelled millions to try
>> marijuana.  So many were misled to believe that smoking a single reefer
>> could enable them to play wild cool jazz piano.  Well hell, if a reefer
>> could really do that, of course we would smoke them, even I would.
>> Reliable sources report that it didn?t work.  But that Hot Fingers reefer
>> cat be throwin down some hot jazz licks in the movie, ya gotta hand it to
>> him.  He be TESTIFYIN on that keyboard.  Wish I could do that.
>>
>>
>>
>> (138) Hot Fingers - YouTube <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eauSPoxI0gY>
>>
>>
>>
>> Regarding the psychedelic notion of psychedelics enabling faster and more
>> creative thinking, below is an example of a computer analysis of a game I
>> played yesterday against a guy who is more than 100 Elo points above me, so
>> I wasn?t even trying for a win, kinda hoping to end the day on a draw if
>> possible.  I went with a well-worn Giuoco Pianissimo line as black, but my
>> 1930 Elo opponent was having none of that draw nonsense.
>>
>>
>>
>> I made a drawish play on move 12, which you see there on the graph.  The
>> computer called it a blunder.  I knew it was weak and cowardly, but thought
>> it was my best bet against this monster.  He replied with an aggressive
>> blunder, which I spotted and exploited, putting me in good shape for at
>> least a draw.  I kept my cool, grinding away on his ass in a surprisingly
>> accurate 49 move marathon for the win.
>>
>>
>>
>> [image: image002.jpg]
>>
>>
>>
>> Oh, life is goooood.
>>
>>
>>
>> This is the kind of data we can get free, if anyone wishes to experiment
>> with psychedelic performance enhancers.  I volunteer to be the straight
>> guy.  I have a piano you can borrow if you don?t play chess.  Before we do
>> that however, consider that chess, like any other sport, is one in which
>> the adherents will do whatever it takes, whaaateeeever it takes, anything,
>> to play better.  We get far too wrapped up in it and want to do better, for
>> we love the game.  This leads me to the speculation that every chemical
>> brain enhancement up to and including such absurdities as devouring the
>> semen of grandmasters, has been tried and has failed.
>>
>>
>>
>> Granted I could have stopped writing before that particular revolting
>> example, but you get the picture.  Chess has been played in its current
>> form for over 500 years in every country on the planet, and is a reasonable
>> proxy for measuring brain performance for those who play.  The reason I am
>> so bold with the challenge is my complete confidence that had there been
>> any such effective chemical therapy, we would know all about it by now.
>>
>>
>>
>> spike
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Mar 26 17:47:08 2022
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 12:47:08 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <004701d84135$1a8510f0$4f8f32d0$@rainier66.com>
References: <011201d83b32$d3c7a630$7b56f290$@rainier66.com>
 <497940D5-5AED-4973-9863-CBB4F30FB6C6@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <004201d840cc$a7f7a380$f7e6ea80$@rainier66.com>
 <009b01d84125$38f9f3d0$aaeddb70$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEY_NTdJioSv9_EWe7LfLphWW4OV_7O4TW85jm4voD030A@mail.gmail.com>
 <004701d84135$1a8510f0$4f8f32d0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYLgpfYTpKkw8iHUEMO_RdKamCy+8aQ8FezkO7Kjpr1bw@mail.gmail.com>

Oh baloney, Spike.  I know that transgender issues really light your fire,
but do you really think that a significant percentage of the grandmasters
grouped as male are anything but?

On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 12:17 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
>
>
>
> >?Gene Krupa was addicted to heroin and insisted that he played better
> under it?
>
>
>
> This is a very common attitude in jazz and rock.  I have firsthand
> observations (not experience (would experiencing a drug be zeroethhand
> observations?))  It can cause the musicians to relax and feel the music
> perhaps, but their technique doesn?t appear to get better.  Jazz has
> creative improvisation, but I don?t see that improves either.  I agree that
> drugs would cause musicians to perceive they are doing better, and enjoy
> their music more.
>
>
>
> Regarding my link to Hot Fingers from Reefer Madness, I realized after the
> fact that the video showed Hot before the reefer, but doesn?t show how he
> did after.  I can?t find a link to Fingers after he stole away to the
> pantry for a reefer.
>
>
>
> >?There are 1500 male grandmasters and 40 female ones.  Can we say that
> men are better at spatial things?
>
>
>
> Sure can?t Billw.  From what we are now told, we cannot know if we are
> male or female, so we cannot know if some of the grandmasters are really
> grandmistresses or if there is any scientifically reproducible way to
> distinguish.  The XX and XY determining gender business is so old-think,
> appropriate only to lads our age (or lasses (for we can never be sure (we
> are told.)))
>
>
>
> Just to clarify my own attitude, while freely acknowledging there are
> transgenders and approving of their freedom to choose their own identity,
> taking it to the extreme of pretending there are no real differences
> between men and women, or that we cannot distinguish between the two, is
> the pinnacle of absurdity.  Through it all, we continue to de-emphasize the
> one sport in which ?men? and ?women? really do compete on completely equal
> footing, the fine sport of shooting, all the shooting sports.  Why please?
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Mar 26 17:49:15 2022
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 12:49:15 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Michio Kaku makes 3 predictions about the future
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRWm7NcqMfsxsPiuC=PUV0gY7RO1edZ3kLUL21VLseQnQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjaM_kvb_EyTXcmg2dC35EdddoP5yWWSt43mnQxnMf-8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRWm7NcqMfsxsPiuC=PUV0gY7RO1edZ3kLUL21VLseQnQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEa4zx7REnGT3-gNH_NucBi9=WNxAGJtouxZU9vJLy8a_A@mail.gmail.com>

Knowing what we do about Mars, who would ever want to live on it?  It has
literally nothing we want, except perhaps for lots of room.   bill w

On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 11:57 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 9:17 AM BillK via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> I'm doubtful about human cities on the desert planet Mars, but maybe
>> something can be done with it.......
>>
>
> I suspect the less glamorous but far more practical option of orbital
> habitats is likely to house a significant portion of humanity before
> martian habitats do, if martian habitats ever do.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Mar 26 17:57:21 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 10:57:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Michio Kaku makes 3 predictions about the future
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRWm7NcqMfsxsPiuC=PUV0gY7RO1edZ3kLUL21VLseQnQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjaM_kvb_EyTXcmg2dC35EdddoP5yWWSt43mnQxnMf-8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRWm7NcqMfsxsPiuC=PUV0gY7RO1edZ3kLUL21VLseQnQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009601d8413a$f15a1170$d40e3450$@rainier66.com>

 

 

On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 9:17 AM BillK via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

I'm doubtful about human cities on the desert planet Mars, but maybe
something can be done with it.......

 

 

 

It?s cool, but I note that we still really don?t have cities in either Antarctica or the middle of the Sahara, even though there are good reasons to settle there if practical: the former for astronomy and the latter for blanketing the place with solar power.  In both places, vast expanses of land can be obtained for nothing.

 

Regarding the Sahara, anyone with eyes can see that China is colonizing Africa.  It is easy enough to foresee that solar panels in the Sahara could supply the entire continent with power, along with using the power to convert South African coal to fuel for internal combustion engines.

 

Before you dismiss the notion, consider all energy use of the USA and convert that to land area needed to generate it with solar: it requires a patch of ground larger than Arizona, assuming Arizona-ey skies and latitude.  Then consider the latitude of northern Africa-ey skies.  Then take a look at this figure or go to the site:

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2445615/True-size-Africa-continent-big-China-India-US-Europe-together.html

 

 



 

 

Africa is? what?s the technical term? a big-assed continent.

 

Prediction: humanity will build tech-advanced cities in Africa, up in the Sahara where it won?t bother the people who already there, before we build anything on Mars.

 

spike

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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Mar 26 18:12:20 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 11:12:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYLgpfYTpKkw8iHUEMO_RdKamCy+8aQ8FezkO7Kjpr1bw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <011201d83b32$d3c7a630$7b56f290$@rainier66.com>
 <497940D5-5AED-4973-9863-CBB4F30FB6C6@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <004201d840cc$a7f7a380$f7e6ea80$@rainier66.com>
 <009b01d84125$38f9f3d0$aaeddb70$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEY_NTdJioSv9_EWe7LfLphWW4OV_7O4TW85jm4voD030A@mail.gmail.com>
 <004701d84135$1a8510f0$4f8f32d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYLgpfYTpKkw8iHUEMO_RdKamCy+8aQ8FezkO7Kjpr1bw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00a501d8413d$091a2af0$1b4e80d0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??

 

>?Oh baloney, Spike.  I know that transgender issues really light your fire, but do you really think that a significant percentage of the grandmasters grouped as male are anything but?

 

 

 

No I was just having some fun at no one?s expense.  I am not participating in the current debate on transgenders in women?s sports.  It is clear enough to me that people who developed as men have an advantage in some, really most sports, such as track, swimming, weight lifting, boxing, wrestling, and so forth, probably chess (don?t understand why on that last one.)

 

I am a big fan of the shooting sports, having participated in it since childhood and knowing the men have no inherent advantage in that game.  Yet, for some odd reason, few know anything about it or who the big stars are (I do.)  

 

My family is from West Virginia.  West Virginia dominates no sports (except one) for there is insufficient level ground there.  What little bottom land is available is seldom invested in football fields (or any other fields besides growing much-needed crops) so it is unlikely that football champions, baseball, soccer or any of it will be from there, where plenty of high schools do not even have teams.  The except one refers to shooting sports.  The high schools do have teams there, and they do find their talent early.  And that is why so many Olympic shooting champions are from West Virginia.  West Virginia is the number one state in the shooting sports.

 

Historical aside: in the Civil War, both sides were very careful to not piss off West Virginia.  They let them form their own state, and came somewhat close to allowing them to form their own country up there.  Reason: West Virginia, even back in those days, had the best shooters anywhere.  Neither side wanted to fight against them.  

 

I know a lot about this because my own great great great grandfather was one of those who led the successful effort to create the state of West Virginia.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

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From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Mar 26 18:30:32 2022
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 11:30:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Michio Kaku makes 3 predictions about the future
In-Reply-To: <009601d8413a$f15a1170$d40e3450$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armjaM_kvb_EyTXcmg2dC35EdddoP5yWWSt43mnQxnMf-8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRWm7NcqMfsxsPiuC=PUV0gY7RO1edZ3kLUL21VLseQnQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <009601d8413a$f15a1170$d40e3450$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRqA1i1Adb6biAbzDfFPAXWS5Nm-CNsE47cALX2YNXyug@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 11:00 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Prediction: humanity will build tech-advanced cities in Africa, up in the
> Sahara where it won?t bother the people who already there, before we build
> anything on Mars.
>

Cities in Africa could be easily raided by military or - deadpan gasp - law
enforcement.  This is much harder to do on Mars, which seems to be the true
impetus for colonizing Mars.

But the benefit of being hard to raid can be had in orbit or on the Moon,
too, with much less drawbacks from distance, thus why I see those as likely
sooner than Mars.
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Mar 26 19:01:04 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 12:01:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Michio Kaku makes 3 predictions about the future
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRqA1i1Adb6biAbzDfFPAXWS5Nm-CNsE47cALX2YNXyug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjaM_kvb_EyTXcmg2dC35EdddoP5yWWSt43mnQxnMf-8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRWm7NcqMfsxsPiuC=PUV0gY7RO1edZ3kLUL21VLseQnQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <009601d8413a$f15a1170$d40e3450$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNRqA1i1Adb6biAbzDfFPAXWS5Nm-CNsE47cALX2YNXyug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000e01d84143$d806fae0$8814f0a0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] Michio Kaku makes 3 predictions about the future

 

On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 11:00 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

Prediction: humanity will build tech-advanced cities in Africa, up in the Sahara where it won?t bother the people who already there, before we build anything on Mars.

 

>?Cities in Africa could be easily raided by military or - deadpan gasp - law enforcement.  This is much harder to do on Mars, which seems to be the true impetus for colonizing Mars.

 

>?But the benefit of being hard to raid can be had in orbit or on the Moon, too, with much less drawbacks from distance, thus why I see those as likely sooner than Mars?

 

 

 

 

Hi Adrian, 

 

Granted, but my contention is that defense against military or law enforcement raiders is a much easier and practical task than is survival on Mars.  In the latter case, sheer distance from military force is a huge deterrent.  If energy-generating colonies are built in the Sahara, the desert itself creates a marvelous fortress against over-land attacks.  Regarding aircraft attack, the defender can deal with that too, considering any power-generating facility has huge piles of money to invest in anti-aircraft technology.

 

Conclusion: massive Saharan power stations will predate (and may even be prerequisite to) any Mars colony.

 

spike 

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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Sat Mar 26 19:02:22 2022
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 15:02:22 -0400
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <005a01d84137$dd1d95e0$9758c1a0$@rainier66.com>
References: <011201d83b32$d3c7a630$7b56f290$@rainier66.com>
 <497940D5-5AED-4973-9863-CBB4F30FB6C6@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <004201d840cc$a7f7a380$f7e6ea80$@rainier66.com>
 <CAKrqSyGpi7PvrvLDNeWM8GaGqQLyGK2sAFS2UmGsUB91VCSSXg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAKrqSyGgOG05yUq86zQDS31gOxYMUNudswEsCeKWYhc8TosL=Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 1:36 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> There is exactly one chemical known to enhance chess ability, freely and
> nearly universally used: caffeine.
>

I assume this is hyperbolic since amphetamines are widely known to boost
problem-solving abilities and reaction time.  Caffeine sucks ass as a focus
drug compared to amphetamines, since caffeine is a much more general
stimulant instead of honing in on the motivation/action loci of the brain.
(Source: studied neuroscience, did a lot of drugs).  And there are plenty
of other nootropics ('smart drugs') known to enhance cognitive ability like
piracetam, vinpocetine, noopept, etc...also hormone precursor stuff like
DHEA or even straight up HGH can be beneficial for the mind.

To Henry: opiates certainly have nootropic aspects; I say this as someone
who was addicted to them (incl. heroin) for years.  Something like kratom
could be particularly interesting for chess-like sports as it is also a
stimulant in a more literal way than typical opiates, which are often
stimulating but I wouldn't classify as stimulants.  In any case I stay away
from all that stuff now, too addicting to me.
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Mar 26 19:13:40 2022
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 14:13:40 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyGgOG05yUq86zQDS31gOxYMUNudswEsCeKWYhc8TosL=Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <011201d83b32$d3c7a630$7b56f290$@rainier66.com>
 <497940D5-5AED-4973-9863-CBB4F30FB6C6@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <004201d840cc$a7f7a380$f7e6ea80$@rainier66.com>
 <CAKrqSyGpi7PvrvLDNeWM8GaGqQLyGK2sAFS2UmGsUB91VCSSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <005a01d84137$dd1d95e0$9758c1a0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAKrqSyGgOG05yUq86zQDS31gOxYMUNudswEsCeKWYhc8TosL=Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYbUFDSvRmwsXmPODQsq=C1eNVSZw0WvqgMR-F0A-+-qQ@mail.gmail.com>

An amphetamine psychosis is among the very worst:   *lack of concentration,
delusions of persecution, increased motor activity, disorganization of
thoughts, lack of insight, anxiety, suspicion and auditory hallucinations -
don't mess with amphetamines unless you know when to stop and can.   bill w*

On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 2:08 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 1:36 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> There is exactly one chemical known to enhance chess ability, freely and
>> nearly universally used: caffeine.
>>
>
> I assume this is hyperbolic since amphetamines are widely known to boost
> problem-solving abilities and reaction time.  Caffeine sucks ass as a focus
> drug compared to amphetamines, since caffeine is a much more general
> stimulant instead of honing in on the motivation/action loci of the brain.
> (Source: studied neuroscience, did a lot of drugs).  And there are plenty
> of other nootropics ('smart drugs') known to enhance cognitive ability like
> piracetam, vinpocetine, noopept, etc...also hormone precursor stuff like
> DHEA or even straight up HGH can be beneficial for the mind.
>
> To Henry: opiates certainly have nootropic aspects; I say this as someone
> who was addicted to them (incl. heroin) for years.  Something like kratom
> could be particularly interesting for chess-like sports as it is also a
> stimulant in a more literal way than typical opiates, which are often
> stimulating but I wouldn't classify as stimulants.  In any case I stay away
> from all that stuff now, too addicting to me.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Mar 26 19:52:02 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 12:52:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyGgOG05yUq86zQDS31gOxYMUNudswEsCeKWYhc8TosL=Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <011201d83b32$d3c7a630$7b56f290$@rainier66.com>
 <497940D5-5AED-4973-9863-CBB4F30FB6C6@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <004201d840cc$a7f7a380$f7e6ea80$@rainier66.com>
 <CAKrqSyGpi7PvrvLDNeWM8GaGqQLyGK2sAFS2UmGsUB91VCSSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <005a01d84137$dd1d95e0$9758c1a0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAKrqSyGgOG05yUq86zQDS31gOxYMUNudswEsCeKWYhc8TosL=Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006b01d8414a$f6d996b0$e48cc410$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??

 

On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 1:36 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

 

There is exactly one chemical known to enhance chess ability, freely and nearly universally used: caffeine.

 

>?I assume this is hyperbolic since amphetamines are widely known to boost problem-solving abilities and reaction time.  Caffeine sucks ass as a focus drug compared to amphetamines, since caffeine is a much more general stimulant instead of honing in on the motivation/action loci of the brain.  (Source: studied neuroscience, did a lot of drugs).  And there are plenty of other nootropics ('smart drugs') known to enhance cognitive ability ?

 

 

Good, then there should be plenty of opportunities to do a chess test.

 

There?s some historical context to why the chess world knows all about caffeine.  In 1984 when the cold war was as hot as it could get and still be defined as cold, the commie Karpov was challenged by the also-Russian but communist-opposing young Kasparov, who was then age 21.  The match was to go to the first player to make it to 6 wins, draws didn?t count.

 

It was a most interesting outcome.  The commie Karpov started out winning four of the first nine games, followed by a string of 16 draws, Karpov won another making it 5 to 0.  All he needed was one more win.  But? everyone who was following those games could see that Karpov?s play was declining.  We later found out that Karpov was taking megadoses of caffeine before each game, which the body can take for a while.  But this match was grinding on, week after week, for months.  After a game, Karpov couldn?t sleep and was losing a lot of weight (he was already skinny.)  He looked like a scarecrow.  The most reliable talk on the street was the dosage Karpov was using was equivalent to about 10 cups of strong coffee (owwww, damn.)

 

Of course we yanks were cheering for Kasparov, and when Garry won game 32 we were elated.  OK now it was 5 to 1, and Kasparov, being the paragon of competition, correctly realized that if he was sufficiently patient, the commie?s health would  eventually collapse, which it did.  Kasparov ground his ass down.  After the match had continued for five months of draws (!) Karpov?s play went off a cliff.  Kasparov won games 47 and 48, bringing the score to 5 to 2, but after we saw game 47 in particular, we all realized Karpov was cooked (many non-Karpovy moves in that one) and that Kasparove would likely win game 48 (he did) then probably 49 thru 51, but those last three games were never played.  The authorities stepped in and stopped the match, declaring the competitors world co-champions.  Officially that was the position, but we all knew the communist domination of chess was over.  Kasparov really won that match.  Caffeine was the drug of choice then (that?s all the commies admitted to) and it helped, for a while.

 

The 80s were a most exciting time to be alive.

 

spike

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From dsunley at gmail.com  Sat Mar 26 20:22:23 2022
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 14:22:23 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Michio Kaku makes 3 predictions about the future
In-Reply-To: <000e01d84143$d806fae0$8814f0a0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armjaM_kvb_EyTXcmg2dC35EdddoP5yWWSt43mnQxnMf-8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRWm7NcqMfsxsPiuC=PUV0gY7RO1edZ3kLUL21VLseQnQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <009601d8413a$f15a1170$d40e3450$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <CAEptUkRZQ0z-W+hEyU7i8HP1+okrQHrdXf6TbLZFEiNBEuou2Q@mail.gmail.com>

Mars has gravity, and large amounts of free mass [soil] for radiation
shielding, located at the bottom of a gravity well [boo!] that's
conveniently shallow enough that we can build a space elevator using
materials technology that actually exists [yay!].

That isn't nothing.

On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 1:02 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Michio Kaku makes 3 predictions about the future
>
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 11:00 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Prediction: humanity will build tech-advanced cities in Africa, up in the
> Sahara where it won?t bother the people who already there, before we build
> anything on Mars.
>
>
>
> >?Cities in Africa could be easily raided by military or - deadpan gasp -
> law enforcement.  This is much harder to do on Mars, which seems to be the
> true impetus for colonizing Mars.
>
>
>
> >?But the benefit of being hard to raid can be had in orbit or on the
> Moon, too, with much less drawbacks from distance, thus why I see those as
> likely sooner than Mars?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Adrian,
>
>
>
> Granted, but my contention is that defense against military or law
> enforcement raiders is a much easier and practical task than is survival on
> Mars.  In the latter case, sheer distance from military force is a huge
> deterrent.  If energy-generating colonies are built in the Sahara, the
> desert itself creates a marvelous fortress against over-land attacks.
> Regarding aircraft attack, the defender can deal with that too, considering
> any power-generating facility has huge piles of money to invest in
> anti-aircraft technology.
>
>
>
> Conclusion: massive Saharan power stations will predate (and may even be
> prerequisite to) any Mars colony.
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Mar 26 20:30:58 2022
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 20:30:58 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Michio Kaku makes 3 predictions about the future
In-Reply-To: <000e01d84143$d806fae0$8814f0a0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armjaM_kvb_EyTXcmg2dC35EdddoP5yWWSt43mnQxnMf-8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRWm7NcqMfsxsPiuC=PUV0gY7RO1edZ3kLUL21VLseQnQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <009601d8413a$f15a1170$d40e3450$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNRqA1i1Adb6biAbzDfFPAXWS5Nm-CNsE47cALX2YNXyug@mail.gmail.com>
 <000e01d84143$d806fae0$8814f0a0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgstQYyRR+Nn4mXpgDYrsx2m3CGZkeDKnc6-nVOAu1x+g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 26 Mar 2022 at 19:03, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Granted, but my contention is that defense against military or law enforcement raiders is a much easier and practical task than is survival on Mars.  In the latter case, sheer distance from military force is a huge deterrent.  If energy-generating colonies are built in the Sahara, the desert itself creates a marvelous fortress against over-land attacks.  Regarding aircraft attack, the defender can deal with that too, considering any power-generating facility has huge piles of money to invest in anti-aircraft technology.
>
> Conclusion: massive Saharan power stations will predate (and may even be prerequisite to) any Mars colony.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


Hi Spike

The idea of covering the Sahara desert with solar panels has been well
studied and is not recommended. Small installations near the cities
would be OK, but not massive projects. Cover more than about 20% of
the desert and you run into big problems. Heat, climate change,
transmission costs, etc.  Solar power is best sited near to where it
will be used.


BillK


From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Mar 26 20:44:25 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 13:44:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Michio Kaku makes 3 predictions about the future
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgstQYyRR+Nn4mXpgDYrsx2m3CGZkeDKnc6-nVOAu1x+g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjaM_kvb_EyTXcmg2dC35EdddoP5yWWSt43mnQxnMf-8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRWm7NcqMfsxsPiuC=PUV0gY7RO1edZ3kLUL21VLseQnQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <009601d8413a$f15a1170$d40e3450$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNRqA1i1Adb6biAbzDfFPAXWS5Nm-CNsE47cALX2YNXyug@mail.gmail.com>
 <000e01d84143$d806fae0$8814f0a0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armgstQYyRR+Nn4mXpgDYrsx2m3CGZkeDKnc6-nVOAu1x+g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002101d84152$48489670$d8d9c350$@rainier66.com>


...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] Michio Kaku makes 3 predictions about the future

On Sat, 26 Mar 2022 at 19:03, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
...
>
> Conclusion: massive Saharan power stations will predate (and may even be
prerequisite to) any Mars colony.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


Hi Spike

>...The idea of covering the Sahara desert with solar panels has been well
studied and is not recommended. Small installations near the cities would be
OK, but not massive projects. Cover more than about 20% of the desert and
you run into big problems. Heat, climate change, transmission costs, etc.
Solar power is best sited near to where it will be used.


BillK

_______________________________________________


BillK, the conclusion above assumes the generated power is used as electric
power.  Problem: there is insufficient market for electric power in that
area.  Note this is a persistent problem: areas well suited for wind and
solar power generation are generally not densely populated.

All is not lost however, for there are power-hungry processes which can be
performed on-site, then the refined products sold.

Consider a process used by South Africa in World War 2.  They had little oil
but plenty of coal, so they used the coal to make fuel.  Problem: the
process uses up most of the coal, for it burns coal to get the energy to
convert the remaining coal to fuel.  The process is very inefficient.
However... with sufficiently abundant supplies of electrical energy,
supplied by solar panels, coal can be converted to liquid fuels, then the
liquid fuels shipped to anywhere on the planet.  All that South African coal
could be shipped to the Sahara, converted there using solar power, then off
it goes to fuel vehicles or whatever else we need.

spike




From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Mar 26 22:56:50 2022
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 17:56:50 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Michio Kaku makes 3 predictions about the future
In-Reply-To: <002101d84152$48489670$d8d9c350$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armjaM_kvb_EyTXcmg2dC35EdddoP5yWWSt43mnQxnMf-8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRWm7NcqMfsxsPiuC=PUV0gY7RO1edZ3kLUL21VLseQnQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <009601d8413a$f15a1170$d40e3450$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNRqA1i1Adb6biAbzDfFPAXWS5Nm-CNsE47cALX2YNXyug@mail.gmail.com>
 <000e01d84143$d806fae0$8814f0a0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armgstQYyRR+Nn4mXpgDYrsx2m3CGZkeDKnc6-nVOAu1x+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <002101d84152$48489670$d8d9c350$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYvQDyx79Qb7k5NHjJC5ShpQZDyfgTAdJ3ogiRnPVPh_g@mail.gmail.com>

I am a little surprised.  I thought we were trying to get away from all
uses of coal because it is dirty.  Does turning it into liquid fuel solve
that problem?   bill w

On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 3:45 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Michio Kaku makes 3 predictions about the future
>
> On Sat, 26 Mar 2022 at 19:03, spike jones via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> ...
> >
> > Conclusion: massive Saharan power stations will predate (and may even be
> prerequisite to) any Mars colony.
> >
> > spike
> > _______________________________________________
>
>
> Hi Spike
>
> >...The idea of covering the Sahara desert with solar panels has been well
> studied and is not recommended. Small installations near the cities would
> be
> OK, but not massive projects. Cover more than about 20% of the desert and
> you run into big problems. Heat, climate change, transmission costs, etc.
> Solar power is best sited near to where it will be used.
>
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> BillK, the conclusion above assumes the generated power is used as electric
> power.  Problem: there is insufficient market for electric power in that
> area.  Note this is a persistent problem: areas well suited for wind and
> solar power generation are generally not densely populated.
>
> All is not lost however, for there are power-hungry processes which can be
> performed on-site, then the refined products sold.
>
> Consider a process used by South Africa in World War 2.  They had little
> oil
> but plenty of coal, so they used the coal to make fuel.  Problem: the
> process uses up most of the coal, for it burns coal to get the energy to
> convert the remaining coal to fuel.  The process is very inefficient.
> However... with sufficiently abundant supplies of electrical energy,
> supplied by solar panels, coal can be converted to liquid fuels, then the
> liquid fuels shipped to anywhere on the planet.  All that South African
> coal
> could be shipped to the Sahara, converted there using solar power, then off
> it goes to fuel vehicles or whatever else we need.
>
> spike
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Mar 26 23:08:19 2022
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 16:08:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Michio Kaku makes 3 predictions about the future
In-Reply-To: <000e01d84143$d806fae0$8814f0a0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armjaM_kvb_EyTXcmg2dC35EdddoP5yWWSt43mnQxnMf-8Q@mail.gmail.com>
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On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 12:02 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Granted, but my contention is that defense against military or law
> enforcement raiders is a much easier and practical task than is survival on
> Mars.
>

That is not the point of view of many of those looking to fund these
initiatives.  Defense against raids - without pissing the raiders off to
the point that they invent justification for something like what's
happening in Ukraine now - can be a delicate, near-impossible art, while
survival can be reduced to technology and measurable goals and is therefore
achievable...is how they think of it.  Whether or not you agree, and
whether or not they are delusional in this, is irrelevant: this thinking
informs their spending.
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Mar 26 23:29:35 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 16:29:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Michio Kaku makes 3 predictions about the future
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYvQDyx79Qb7k5NHjJC5ShpQZDyfgTAdJ3ogiRnPVPh_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjaM_kvb_EyTXcmg2dC35EdddoP5yWWSt43mnQxnMf-8Q@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <003001d84169$5b0b5330$1121f990$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] Michio Kaku makes 3 predictions about the future

 

>?I am a little surprised.  I thought we were trying to get away from all uses of coal because it is dirty.  Does turning it into liquid fuel solve that problem?   bill w

 

 

 

 

Hi Billw, it sure does solve that problem if? you don?t burn it in the process of converting it.  South Africa needed liquid fuels, didn?t have oil wells, their oil sources were unwilling to send their supplies down that way during the war.  All they had was coal.  Plenty of that.  So? they used a process which was known but not particularly practical, using the coal as a power source to convert coal to liquids.  

 

Consider the following thought experiment.  Given a carbon source of sufficient purity, such as coal, and plenty of energy, any liquid fuel can be synthesized.  Granted it is expensive liquid fuel, about twice the going price of? well what it was a coupla months ago, but it can be done, and nearly everywhere has coal.  The USA has lots of it, ooooh buttloads.

 

Now, imagine an existing enormous solar power station out somewhere such as up on the north range at China Lake Naval Weapons Research.  Find Ridgecrest California on Google maps, or go here:

 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/China+lake+hexagram/@35.7155249,-117.7385172,16887m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x80c113469a186557:0xbdabae683d01aff2!2sChina+Lake,+Ridgecrest,+CA+93555!3b1!8m2!3d35.6507888!4d-117.66173!3m4!1s0x80c1053d4da104dd:0xb9022d3ffbe3d60f!8m2!3d35.8171639!4d-117.7414367

 

 

and find the VX9 airstrip up there, looks like a letter A.  Zoom in on Aircraft Graveyard 1 so you can get a feel for how big the place is out there.  Now look out west of there a mile or two and see a straight something going north/south called SNORT.  That is a research track where they put a rocket sled on a track to find out what happens if some prole had to bail out at supersonic speeds.  Now we know: bad things happen.

 

SNORT isn?t used anymore, but out west of there is the area of interest.  None of that is being used anymore, so the Navy could cut some of it loose to make an enormous solar power research facility.  Given the area available, far from anything that would bother anyone? there would be enough power to cover the towns of Ridgecrest, Inyokern, Trona, everything around there, with plenty of power left over to send over to Bakersfield.  Powerlines and rights of way already exist to send out that power from the flight range west of VX-9.  The airstrip is plenty big enough to haul in equipment on C-130s and even the mighty C-5s can land and take off outta there.  We could easily find space for several square miles of land west of SNORT and south of the China Lake Hexagram, which is now considered a preservation site of historic interest, because they built a mockup of a commie SAMsky site.  OK so we did some weird things during the cold war, and we want to remember it for all time.  Sheesh.

 

But OK, with that much land, there would be enough excess power to refine bauxite into aluminum, plenty to make fertilizer, to do whatever you wanted with abundant, reliable power, including converting coal to liquid fuel.  In the deal we already have the roads capable of bearing the load, to bring in the coal, along with existing pipes to haul out the fuel.  Every bit of that can be done now.  Did anything I wrote there cause heartburn to anyone here?  Well? there is something.

 

It has been proposed and debated before but environmentalists managed to stop it.  There are desert tortoises out there.  So? no solar panels on the north range.  So far.

 

But wait, there?s more.  I will write about it in the next post, gotta scoot.

 

Billw, something for you to ponder until then: coal currently generates about 20% of the power in the USA.  If we phase that out, what do we replace it with?  And if we manage that, how do we generate all the power needed to charge the Teslas?

 

spike

 

 

 

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Mar 27 00:07:28 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 17:07:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] sahara power
Message-ID: <004901d8416e$a5ec89a0$f1c59ce0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 



 

>?But wait, there?s more.  I will write about it in the next post, gotta scoot?spike

 

I am back temporarily, so do let me continue with my flight of fancy with the solar facility on the southwest corner of the north range at China Lake.  I was describing an area a few square miles down there, but the north range alone is about 1700 square miles.  If one starts after a hearty breakfast, one can drive around the north range outside of it and arrive back by lunchtime, to give you an idea of the scale of the place.

 

It is generally considered a no-go for solar power generation because of the endangered desert tortoise, so never mind that for now and consider as an alternative the territory of Western Sahara, which is about 60 times the land area of the China Lake north range, very near 100k square miles (about a quarter of a million square km if you think in sensible units (I do.))  That territory has a few thousand people living in all of it but it isn?t exactly clear what country they belong to.  It claims to be independent, but Morocco administers it (whatever that means) and Mauritania claims it (or will if anything of value is ever discovered there.)  No one around there gives a damn about endangered species but all give a damn about potential income from China or anywhere else.

 

Considering an area that size, equivalent to a square about 500 km on a side, imagine the solar conversion sites which could be built and defended out there, if the Chinese or anyone else with plenty of money were to buy it from Morocco or Mauritania or the self-proclaimed government of Western Sahara, or hell all three: currently that land is nearly worthless, pennies an acre.  They could haul in Chinese people to work alongside the locals who want a job, start building solar facilities like crazy, or rather start building like perfectly sane, for the alternatives are far crazier.

 

With all the power that could be generated out there, coal could be converted to liquid fuels, water could be purified from the sea, fertilizer could be manufactured, ore could be refined, lithium battery factories could be supplied and powered, solar panels could be manufactured, the proles working out there could be kept cool and comfortable, and even the most hard core environmentalists might go along with the plan, realizing that it might take away habitat from some unknown beast, but it reduces overall reliance on oil, it reduces greenhouse gases, it supplies the planet with refined stuff we need and it all happens far away in an area none of us has ever seen anyway.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sun Mar 27 01:49:51 2022
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 21:49:51 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Michio Kaku makes 3 predictions about the future
In-Reply-To: <003001d84169$5b0b5330$1121f990$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armjaM_kvb_EyTXcmg2dC35EdddoP5yWWSt43mnQxnMf-8Q@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAAc1gFi36WRmG0+-+FTZ0xpcAZNLVEAq6RoiVAX4QU4dztVjEg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 7:31 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> Billw, something for you to ponder until then: coal currently generates
> about 20% of the power in the USA.  If we phase that out, what do we
> replace it with?  And if we manage that, how do we generate all the power
> needed to charge the Teslas?
>
>
>
### The standard answer from our enemies, the environmentalists, is
"unicorn farts".

BTW, elsewhere you wrote that we would need to cover the area of Arizona to
supply US electricity needs. That sounds suspiciously huge. The estimate I
found is 22,000 sq. miles, so an order of magnitude less.

If we ever defeat our enemies, solar power might become huge in the US.

Rafal
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sun Mar 27 02:05:17 2022
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 22:05:17 -0400
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYbUFDSvRmwsXmPODQsq=C1eNVSZw0WvqgMR-F0A-+-qQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <011201d83b32$d3c7a630$7b56f290$@rainier66.com>
 <497940D5-5AED-4973-9863-CBB4F30FB6C6@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <004201d840cc$a7f7a380$f7e6ea80$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <CAAc1gFjF-ZWw-hQd8DiWvz3O5QhGrETdJd8t_0GJX-r=M5bURQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 3:15 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> An amphetamine psychosis is among the very worst:   *lack of
> concentration, delusions of persecution, increased motor activity,
> disorganization of thoughts, lack of insight, anxiety, suspicion and
> auditory hallucinations - don't mess with amphetamines unless you know when
> to stop and can. *
>

### True but irrelevant scaremongering (i.e. propaganda). Amphetamine
dramatically improves focus and mental stamina, which is why it is widely
used in the treatment of ADHD/ADD. Also, it is the most dramatically
effective antidepressant but due to the propaganda it is almost never used
for that indication.

You *can* burn out your brain with high doses of amphetamine, usually 10x
to 30x therapeutic level but that's a different story. The risk of losers
getting addicted and screwing themselves up is not a good reason to deny
this very useful medication to those who need it.

For the sake of full disclosure, I have never used amphetamine or any other
enhancing drugs, aside from caffeine and even that rarely.

Rafal
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sun Mar 27 02:38:44 2022
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 22:38:44 -0400
Subject: [ExI] gas prices
In-Reply-To: <120EDA29-A9B2-472B-BB21-846A231CE730@hxcore.ol>
References: <CALAdGNRUR2d21r8myNbd8gHTrsQZDJ14uznPWv_yaXi0+X3yPg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAAc1gFgETqEAWD+xRFAzQFm6963DyGn5ivsxz52fVXAMNfwM9g@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 9:34 AM Hermes Trismegistus <gadersd at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I am actually in need of a car and will be buying one very soon. I?m
> looking for an affordable car with very good miles per gallon. I?ve been
> thinking of getting a Prius. Should I consider buying a Volt instead?
>

### I don't know. I have no direct experience. You might want to compare
reliability and repair costs. According to:

https://shift.com/articles/chevy-volt-reliability-is-buying-a-used-chevy-volt-worth-it

- it is very reliable. Reliability issues aside, in normal use it will be
definitely more economical than a Prius, since the hybrid part in the Prius
is more of a gimmick. Doug DeMuro has a very positive review of the Volt:

https://www.autotrader.com/car-news/used-chevy-volt-quickly-becoming-great-bargain-281474979940734

Personally, you wouldn't find me dead in a Prius. It gives off the wrong
vibe. My daily driver is a blacked-out Vette, no eco-boxes for me.

Rafal
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Sun Mar 27 02:48:06 2022
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 22:48:06 -0400
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFjF-ZWw-hQd8DiWvz3O5QhGrETdJd8t_0GJX-r=M5bURQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <011201d83b32$d3c7a630$7b56f290$@rainier66.com>
 <497940D5-5AED-4973-9863-CBB4F30FB6C6@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <004201d840cc$a7f7a380$f7e6ea80$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <CAKrqSyFtZcSpzzvx4vr2+g37aw1_=tQt9MEZz1Z_WYuGPaK+TQ@mail.gmail.com>

I don't think people should be allowed to speak in such an opinionated
manner regarding drugs if they haven't tried them themselves.  It's like
saying you're an expert on the color red if you can only see in black and
white.

On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 10:06 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 3:15 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> An amphetamine psychosis is among the very worst:   *lack of
>> concentration, delusions of persecution, increased motor activity,
>> disorganization of thoughts, lack of insight, anxiety, suspicion and
>> auditory hallucinations - don't mess with amphetamines unless you know when
>> to stop and can. *
>>
>
> ### True but irrelevant scaremongering (i.e. propaganda). Amphetamine
> dramatically improves focus and mental stamina, which is why it is widely
> used in the treatment of ADHD/ADD. Also, it is the most dramatically
> effective antidepressant but due to the propaganda it is almost never used
> for that indication.
>
> You *can* burn out your brain with high doses of amphetamine, usually 10x
> to 30x therapeutic level but that's a different story. The risk of losers
> getting addicted and screwing themselves up is not a good reason to deny
> this very useful medication to those who need it.
>
> For the sake of full disclosure, I have never used amphetamine or any
> other enhancing drugs, aside from caffeine and even that rarely.
>
> Rafal
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From avant at sollegro.com  Sun Mar 27 03:08:21 2022
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 20:08:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] emotional deficits in sci-fi
Message-ID: <20220326200821.Horde.VVVazsqqWLxCrDlFBDwBZXC@sollegro.com>


Quoting William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>:

> I have been reading sci-fi for nearly 70 years (first book Farmer in the
> Sky).  I have finally noticed something:
>
> The characters in the books are on the other end of the scale from
> hypersensitivity.  They are dullards.
>

I think a lot depends upon the authors who write the stories. Some are  
bright Asperger's folks who write about the science, technology, and  
adventure really well, but then fall back on tropes and archetypes for  
the characters and relationships. A very rare few get it right  
emotionally. Some of the most emotionally intelligent and believable  
science fiction stories are the Blade Runner movies loosely based on  
"Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep" by Phillip K. Dick. For a  
science fiction writer, Phillip K. Dick was actually very good in most  
of his stories at the emotional aspects of character development and  
relationships.

Incidentally, if science fiction books are seeming emotionally flat  
these days, you should check out some of the science fiction films  
that are out there. As much a fan I am of Phillip K. Dick, the  
combination of Dick and Ridley Scott is pure magic. I highly recommend  
both "Blade Runner" and "Blade Runner 2049" for their emotional  
content. Sensitive people will cry at either movie.

> When contact is made with aliens or alien technology or artifacts, there is
> some surprise, but very soon it's all matter of fact - highly interested,
> still, but not afraid.
>
> Fear is our strongest emotion and it is tailor made for reacting to aliens
> - which means strong fear and strong suspicions and so on.

> When did you ever read of a character fainting?  Having a panic attack?
> Running away?  Or any other sign of great fear?

Well that pretty much describes much of the plot of the Alien movie  
Dan O'Bannon and directed by, you guessed it, Ridley Scott.

> Apparently nearly all of the characters are heroes of some sort who just
> don't show fear.  They do say it sometimes.  But don't act that way.
> People in intense fear make mistakes, are clumsy, make poor decisions.


Your complaint that heroes don't exhibit enough fear is a criticism  
not just of science fiction, but of all of literature. It is because  
courage is the defining hallmark of heroes and antiheroes throughout  
literature. In science fiction, there is also the added character  
trait and motivation of curiosity. So no, most science fiction heroes  
will not soil themselves when seeing an alien for the first time,  
instead, the average science fiction hero will be intent on trying to  
get ahold of the alien's technology or capture one for study or  
something similar.

There is a subgenre of science fiction called survival-horror that  
seems to be better represented in cinema than in print. In these  
stories, the majority of the characters panic, and die because of it,  
while the few survivors keep their heads and become the de facto  
heroes because of it. Often times the hero survives their first  
encounter with the aliens or other unknown threat by sheer luck, but  
learns enough from the experience to keep from panicking the next  
encounter.

> In other words:  the main problem with scifi is that it is unrealistic!

Some good realistic science fiction survival-horror movies are "Europa  
Report" and "Pandorum". While more survival than horror, the books and  
TV series, "the Expanse", is also very realistic, in my opinion.

Stuart LaForge



From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Mar 27 04:36:19 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 21:36:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Michio Kaku makes 3 predictions about the future
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFi36WRmG0+-+FTZ0xpcAZNLVEAq6RoiVAX4QU4dztVjEg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjaM_kvb_EyTXcmg2dC35EdddoP5yWWSt43mnQxnMf-8Q@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <008e01d84194$34fe0ea0$9efa2be0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat



 

>?BTW, elsewhere you wrote that we would need to cover the area of Arizona to supply US electricity needs. That sounds suspiciously huge. The estimate I found is 22,000 sq. miles, so an order of magnitude less.

 

>?If we ever defeat our enemies, solar power might become huge in the US.

 

Rafal

 

 

Hi Rafal,

 

That calculation was for replacing all fossil fuels with renewables.  This would include stopping all oil wells and using the solar power to replace falling water, wind, and all combustion energy.  Regarding this last, we could still have liquid fuel propulsion (and would still need it for some applications) but it would be made from solar power using coal as a carbon source.  In that energy cycle, we really aren?t burning coal exactly, but rather only using the coal as a carbon source.  It would still use some coal, but not much.

 

Here's how to estimate that if you wish.  Octane (and Diesel fuel (and jet fuel)) is nearly all carbon by weight.  You wouldn?t be that far off if you estimate that a ton of coal produces a ton of octane (given that the process is driven by externally-generated solar energy rather than burning coal.)  but we can sharpen it down a bit if we recognize that a mole of octane is about 96 grams of carbon and 18 grams of hydrogen.  Before we conclude that a ton of coal could produce 1.2 tons of octane, recall that coal has impurities in it.

 

OK then.  Given enough energy, a ton of coal could produce about a ton of octane, well how much is that?  It is about 160 gallons, enough to fill my V8 Detroit?s tank ten times, or my truck?s tank 5 times, or about 1000 bucks worth of liquid fuel by today?s prices.

 

Google tells me the USA burns about 450 million tons of coal each year currently in generating power.  We burn about 780 million tons of gasoline and Diesel.  Imagine we generated enough solar power to replace the 450 million tons of coal.  We would still need 780 million tons of coal to make the liquid fuels.  Consider however that the 780 million tons of liquid fuel is coming from oil.  If that came from coal instead, it is at least a breakeven environmentally, but really it is a lot better than that: we have plenty of coal right here.

 

It has been 20 years since I did the calculation, so I don?t recall what efficiency I was assuming on the solar power conversion.  Good chance I was using all conservative estimates.  Reasoning: if we are not hard-pressed for space, it is more cost effective to use the lower efficiency solar cells.  If we have Arizona at our disposal, we are not hard-pressed for space.  If the Chinese buy the entire territory of West Sahara from? Morocco and Mauritania and Algeria and Sahrawi Republic simultaneously, giving each of those four outfits about a buck per hectare? the Chinese would have plenty of land to work with, defensible with access to the sea.  At a latitude of about 18 degrees north and less than 5 cm of rain a year, they would have plenty of solar energy to convert.  They could haul coal up from South Africa where there are plenty of mines and plenty of eager coal salesmen.

 

I can envision a place like Western Saraha becoming the world?s solar panel factory, lithium battery factory, coal-importing liquid fuel exporting hotspot, way the hell out where it wouldn?t bother anyone, not even the few thousand people who currently live there.  They would scarcely be aware that most of the territory had been purchased and was being converted to an energy factory.

 

Where this all started: I predict that such a development will happen before (and may even be prerequisite to) any Mars colony.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

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From avant at sollegro.com  Sun Mar 27 05:11:31 2022
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 22:11:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Michio Kaku makes 3 predictions about the future
Message-ID: <20220326221131.Horde.sxYjNqnu4TFkWPVSmxigsb1@sollegro.com>


Quoting Darin Sunley <dsunley at gmail.com>:

>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 14:22:23 -0600
> From: To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Message-ID:
> 	<CAEptUkRZQ0z-W+hEyU7i8HP1+okrQHrdXf6TbLZFEiNBEuou2Q at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Mars has gravity, and large amounts of free mass [soil] for radiation
> shielding, located at the bottom of a gravity well [boo!] that's
> conveniently shallow enough that we can build a space elevator using
> materials technology that actually exists [yay!].
> That isn't nothing.

Agreed. Mars is likely to become a massive robotic manufacturing  
center for all kinds of durable goods. Mars has abundant ore for a  
variety of useful metals including sufficient uranium reserves that  
the Trump administration has issued a policy directive prohibiting  
NASA from building breeder reactors on Mars for fear of nuclear  
weapons enabled by Highly Enriched uranium.

https://physicstoday.scitation.org/do/10.1063/PT.6.2.20201223a/full/

While I don't see human cities thriving on Mars in the near term, I do  
certainly see people setting up gigantic nuclear-powered automated  
industrial parks, with a small cadre of highly-paid engineers and  
technicians doing several month long tours of duty there managing and  
repairing the robots that are building everything the  
environmentalists and NIMBYs find too polluting or dangerous to build  
here on Earth. There are no spotted owls to wring your hands over on  
Mars.

Stuart LaForge



From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sun Mar 27 07:42:48 2022
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 03:42:48 -0400
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyFtZcSpzzvx4vr2+g37aw1_=tQt9MEZz1Z_WYuGPaK+TQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <011201d83b32$d3c7a630$7b56f290$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <CAAc1gFiK7x__-U2V2je+0f==Ev33SzL2ZFskiXp0u_68o3430w@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 10:49 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I don't think people should be allowed to speak in such an opinionated
> manner regarding drugs if they haven't tried them themselves.  It's like
> saying you're an expert on the color red if you can only see in black and
> white.
>

### Do I need to take every drug before I prescribe it to my patients, or
would you perhaps let me speak about drugs to patients based on my
knowledge of the relevant published research? Because, well, I *am* an
expert on neurological drugs, even if I don't take them.

Rafal
-- 
Rafal Smigrodzki, MD-PhD
Schuyler Biotech PLLC
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sun Mar 27 07:59:38 2022
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 03:59:38 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Michio Kaku makes 3 predictions about the future
In-Reply-To: <008e01d84194$34fe0ea0$9efa2be0$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <CAAc1gFj7d4bGaBegDYiz_X5Dyp0rBAa5nk3SDJpXf6F2neSgjQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 12:36 AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

> It has been 20 years since I did the calculation, so I don?t recall what
> efficiency I was assuming on the solar power conversion.
>

### Any situation where you use solar to produce liquid fuels will have
atrociously low efficiency. We can almost completely replace nuclear and
fossil energy with a much smaller amount of solar and wind electricity if
it is used directly, although we would need a lot of batteries, well over
30 TWh for the USA. See Tony Seba's presentation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj96nxtHdTU

Rafal
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Mar 27 10:19:10 2022
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 11:19:10 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Michio Kaku makes 3 predictions about the future
In-Reply-To: <002101d84152$48489670$d8d9c350$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armjaM_kvb_EyTXcmg2dC35EdddoP5yWWSt43mnQxnMf-8Q@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAL_armjED4yVuwiDo2j9+SB2jhX3PAFtfas2Yv2wPWTuYSmsUg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 26 Mar 2022 at 20:46, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> BillK, the conclusion above assumes the generated power is used as electric
> power.  Problem: there is insufficient market for electric power in that
> area.  Note this is a persistent problem: areas well suited for wind and
> solar power generation are generally not densely populated.
>
> All is not lost however, for there are power-hungry processes which can be
> performed on-site, then the refined products sold.
>
> Consider a process used by South Africa in World War 2.  They had little oil
> but plenty of coal, so they used the coal to make fuel.  Problem: the
> process uses up most of the coal, for it burns coal to get the energy to
> convert the remaining coal to fuel.  The process is very inefficient.
> However... with sufficiently abundant supplies of electrical energy,
> supplied by solar panels, coal can be converted to liquid fuels, then the
> liquid fuels shipped to anywhere on the planet.  All that South African coal
> could be shipped to the Sahara, converted there using solar power, then off
> it goes to fuel vehicles or whatever else we need.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


Very large solar panel installations create a heat-island effect.
Covering over 20% of the Sahara (or the equivalent elsewhere) will
create so much heat that it will affect the world climate.
See:
<https://theconversation.com/solar-panels-in-sahara-could-boost-renewable-energy-but-damage-the-global-climate-heres-why-153992>
Quote:
If these effects were only local, they might not matter in a sparsely
populated and barren desert. But the scale of the installations that
would be needed to make a dent in the world?s fossil energy demand
would be vast, covering thousands of square kilometres. Heat
re-emitted from an area this size will be redistributed by the flow of
air in the atmosphere, having regional and global effects on the
climate.
-----------

Also:
<https://medium.com/predict/why-dont-we-cover-the-sharah-in-solar-panels-3692a5bf89bd>
Quote:
Why Don?t We Cover the Sahara In Solar Panels?
The answer to our power needs seems so simple, right?
Will Lockett    Mar 8, 2021
-------------------------------


Like most good things, some is nice but too much becomes a problem.


BillK


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Mar 27 12:54:14 2022
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 07:54:14 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFiK7x__-U2V2je+0f==Ev33SzL2ZFskiXp0u_68o3430w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <011201d83b32$d3c7a630$7b56f290$@rainier66.com>
 <497940D5-5AED-4973-9863-CBB4F30FB6C6@alumni.virginia.edu>
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 <CAAc1gFjF-ZWw-hQd8DiWvz3O5QhGrETdJd8t_0GJX-r=M5bURQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyFtZcSpzzvx4vr2+g37aw1_=tQt9MEZz1Z_WYuGPaK+TQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFiK7x__-U2V2je+0f==Ev33SzL2ZFskiXp0u_68o3430w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY3xOjSFCpvE1ORfk1v6JUC7bh33Qr7THN3OvLr0JgNSA@mail.gmail.com>

Rafal, I object to the title of scaremongerer.  In fact I think it insults
this group, though even very highly educated people may not know just how
bad overuse can be.  I very obviously know of amphetamines' uses in ADHD
and so on by qualified physicians.  If I advised people not to get obese
because of the threat of high blood pressure and diabetes, would I be
scaremongering?  Hardly.  Clearly there are people who take uppers who are
not aware of the dangers (not our group, likely).  bill w

On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 2:44 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 10:49 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> I don't think people should be allowed to speak in such an opinionated
>> manner regarding drugs if they haven't tried them themselves.  It's like
>> saying you're an expert on the color red if you can only see in black and
>> white.
>>
>
> ### Do I need to take every drug before I prescribe it to my patients, or
> would you perhaps let me speak about drugs to patients based on my
> knowledge of the relevant published research? Because, well, I *am* an
> expert on neurological drugs, even if I don't take them.
>
> Rafal
> --
> Rafal Smigrodzki, MD-PhD
> Schuyler Biotech PLLC
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Mar 27 13:19:20 2022
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 08:19:20 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Michio Kaku makes 3 predictions about the future
In-Reply-To: <003001d84169$5b0b5330$1121f990$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armjaM_kvb_EyTXcmg2dC35EdddoP5yWWSt43mnQxnMf-8Q@mail.gmail.com>
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Billw, something for you to ponder until then: coal currently generates
about 20% of the power in the USA.  If we phase that out, what do we
replace it with?  And if we manage that, how do we generate all the power
needed to charge the Teslas?



spike         Spike, you know very well what the answer is:  nuclear.
People die every day from polluted air mostly generated by coal plants,
such as in Western Carolina.  Oh, if people were only rational!  They are
afraid of nuclear and used to coal and it ought to be the reverse.  bill w

On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 6:31 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Michio Kaku makes 3 predictions about the future
>
>
>
> >?I am a little surprised.  I thought we were trying to get away from all
> uses of coal because it is dirty.  Does turning it into liquid fuel solve
> that problem?   bill w
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Billw, it sure does solve that problem if? you don?t burn it in the
> process of converting it.  South Africa needed liquid fuels, didn?t have
> oil wells, their oil sources were unwilling to send their supplies down
> that way during the war.  All they had was coal.  Plenty of that.  So? they
> used a process which was known but not particularly practical, using the
> coal as a power source to convert coal to liquids.
>
>
>
> Consider the following thought experiment.  Given a carbon source of
> sufficient purity, such as coal, and plenty of energy, any liquid fuel can
> be synthesized.  Granted it is expensive liquid fuel, about twice the going
> price of? well what it was a coupla months ago, but it can be done, and
> nearly everywhere has coal.  The USA has lots of it, ooooh buttloads.
>
>
>
> Now, imagine an existing enormous solar power station out somewhere such
> as up on the north range at China Lake Naval Weapons Research.  Find
> Ridgecrest California on Google maps, or go here:
>
>
>
>
> https://www.google.com/maps/place/China+lake+hexagram/@35.7155249,-117.7385172,16887m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x80c113469a186557:0xbdabae683d01aff2!2sChina+Lake,+Ridgecrest,+CA+93555!3b1!8m2!3d35.6507888!4d-117.66173!3m4!1s0x80c1053d4da104dd:0xb9022d3ffbe3d60f!8m2!3d35.8171639!4d-117.7414367
>
>
>
>
>
> and find the VX9 airstrip up there, looks like a letter A.  Zoom in on
> Aircraft Graveyard 1 so you can get a feel for how big the place is out
> there.  Now look out west of there a mile or two and see a straight
> something going north/south called SNORT.  That is a research track where
> they put a rocket sled on a track to find out what happens if some prole
> had to bail out at supersonic speeds.  Now we know: bad things happen.
>
>
>
> SNORT isn?t used anymore, but out west of there is the area of interest.
> None of that is being used anymore, so the Navy could cut some of it loose
> to make an enormous solar power research facility.  Given the area
> available, far from anything that would bother anyone? there would be
> enough power to cover the towns of Ridgecrest, Inyokern, Trona, everything
> around there, with plenty of power left over to send over to Bakersfield.
> Powerlines and rights of way already exist to send out that power from the
> flight range west of VX-9.  The airstrip is plenty big enough to haul in
> equipment on C-130s and even the mighty C-5s can land and take off outta
> there.  We could easily find space for several square miles of land west of
> SNORT and south of the China Lake Hexagram, which is now considered a
> preservation site of historic interest, because they built a mockup of a
> commie SAMsky site.  OK so we did some weird things during the cold war,
> and we want to remember it for all time.  Sheesh.
>
>
>
> But OK, with that much land, there would be enough excess power to refine
> bauxite into aluminum, plenty to make fertilizer, to do whatever you wanted
> with abundant, reliable power, including converting coal to liquid fuel.
> In the deal we already have the roads capable of bearing the load, to bring
> in the coal, along with existing pipes to haul out the fuel.  Every bit of
> that can be done now.  Did anything I wrote there cause heartburn to anyone
> here?  Well? there is something.
>
>
>
> It has been proposed and debated before but environmentalists managed to
> stop it.  There are desert tortoises out there.  So? no solar panels on the
> north range.  So far.
>
>
>
> But wait, there?s more.  I will write about it in the next post, gotta
> scoot.
>
>
>
> Billw, something for you to ponder until then: coal currently generates
> about 20% of the power in the USA.  If we phase that out, what do we
> replace it with?  And if we manage that, how do we generate all the power
> needed to charge the Teslas?
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Mar 27 14:05:08 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 07:05:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Michio Kaku makes 3 predictions about the future
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFj7d4bGaBegDYiz_X5Dyp0rBAa5nk3SDJpXf6F2neSgjQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjaM_kvb_EyTXcmg2dC35EdddoP5yWWSt43mnQxnMf-8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRWm7NcqMfsxsPiuC=PUV0gY7RO1edZ3kLUL21VLseQnQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <002101d84152$48489670$d8d9c350$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYvQDyx79Qb7k5NHjJC5ShpQZDyfgTAdJ3ogiRnPVPh_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <003001d84169$5b0b5330$1121f990$@rainier66.com>
 <CAAc1gFi36WRmG0+-+FTZ0xpcAZNLVEAq6RoiVAX4QU4dztVjEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <008e01d84194$34fe0ea0$9efa2be0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAAc1gFj7d4bGaBegDYiz_X5Dyp0rBAa5nk3SDJpXf6F2neSgjQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003401d841e3$ab49ed00$01ddc700$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat
Sent: Sunday, 27 March, 2022 1:00 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Michio Kaku makes 3 predictions about the future

 

 

 

On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 12:36 AM <spike at rainier66.com <mailto:spike at rainier66.com> > wrote: 

It has been 20 years since I did the calculation, so I don?t recall what efficiency I was assuming on the solar power conversion.

 

### Any situation where you use solar to produce liquid fuels will have atrociously low efficiency? Rafal

 

 

I agree it will be down around 1% for many of those processes.  The relevant comparison is to the most efficient plant to chemical energy as food or plant to liquid fuel.  Using corn to food calories we might be able to hit 1%, but it would depend on how you count it.  Reasoning: there is a lot of energy that goes into creating the fertilizer, drawing up the irrigation water, harvesting etc.  

 

If we think of growing corn to distill alcohol to run the machines and using the alcohol to distill the alcohol etc, as far as I know, our best current processes are unable to get to breakeven.  I chose corn because it is the most energy efficient crop I know of.

 

Using power directly is relatively efficient I agree, however it has disadvantages too.  We will never have electric jet liners for instance, and electric cars have their limitations.  Farm equipment is ill-suited for any power source which needs a long time to recharge, for during the short season, harvesters run 24/7.  My farmer friends tell me the reason for that is there is no 25/8.

 

On the other hand, given places like the Sahara, we can afford atrocious efficiency and still do what we need to do.  That would be the ideal site to start making those 30 TWh of storage capacity, which I agree is needed.  I stand with my prediction that a Sahara energy colony will predate and is prerequisite to any significant development on Mars.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Mar 27 14:50:11 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 07:50:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Michio Kaku makes 3 predictions about the future
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEa07gJy2rWHxGu7--J5ZNvAXiwpE3aWLSdqhTD=ZehZFA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjaM_kvb_EyTXcmg2dC35EdddoP5yWWSt43mnQxnMf-8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRWm7NcqMfsxsPiuC=PUV0gY7RO1edZ3kLUL21VLseQnQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <009601d8413a$f15a1170$d40e3450$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNRqA1i1Adb6biAbzDfFPAXWS5Nm-CNsE47cALX2YNXyug@mail.gmail.com>
 <000e01d84143$d806fae0$8814f0a0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armgstQYyRR+Nn4mXpgDYrsx2m3CGZkeDKnc6-nVOAu1x+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <002101d84152$48489670$d8d9c350$@rainier66.com>
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 <003001d84169$5b0b5330$1121f990$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa07gJy2rWHxGu7--J5ZNvAXiwpE3aWLSdqhTD=ZehZFA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005501d841e9$f689a1b0$e39ce510$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Sent: Sunday, 27 March, 2022 6:19 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Michio Kaku makes 3 predictions about the future

 

Billw, something for you to ponder until then: coal currently generates about 20% of the power in the USA.  If we phase that out, what do we replace it with?  And if we manage that, how do we generate all the power needed to charge the Teslas?

 

spike         Spike, you know very well what the answer is:  nuclear.  People die every day from polluted air mostly generated by coal plants, such as in Western Carolina.  Oh, if people were only rational!  They are afraid of nuclear and used to coal and it ought to be the reverse.  bill w

 

Hi Billw,

I am, and have long been an advocate of nuclear power.  But environmentalists stop it in places where they are able, such as everywhere in the USA and generally in Europe.

The enormous solar colony I envision is bootstrapped using energy generated by nuclear reactors in West Sahara, cooled by seawater.  The whole operation would be owned and operated by the Chinese, who pay no attention to environmentalists and don?t get too concerned about international pressure.  They have developing nation status, which means they get to do whatever they want, regardless of how rich they become.  It is unclear when a developing nation becomes a no-longer developing nation.  It is unclear why the USA can be considered non-developing.  Any ideas?

These big West Sahara schemes do come with an environmental price, as BillK pointed out.  This I do not dispute, nor do I dispute that enormous solar factories will contribute to global warming.  I do wish for us to recognize however that global warming in itself need not be catastrophic.  We can tolerate some of it.

Example: solar panels reduce the albedo of the planet, so it creates a hot spot above the panels.  But if the solar collection is done near the equator, fewer panels are needed.  The air above the panels is already hot, and it gets hotter, but it isn?t exactly a breakeven deal because of Stefan-Boltzmann?s law: a black body radiates energy as a function of its temperature raised to the 4th.  Superheated air radiates heat out into space.  

If we compare two air masses heated from their initial state 20 kelvin, one air mass starting at 273K and the other starting at a Sahara-ey 335K, the already hot desert air radiates 70% more energy.  Ja we know air isn?t a black body and half of that radiated energy goes back down, ja we know.  But the Stefan-Boltzmann law comes to our aid with the superheated air problem.  

At some point we must recognize that all forms of energy conversion have environmental cost and we must pay, for we cannot do without energy.  Nuclear is the cleanest, but environmentalists want it elsewhere.  If elsewhere, the energy generated elsewhere must be transported.  If it is transported, the process is material intensive, which has its own environmental costs.  Electric wires cannot be effectively defended in many parts of the world, which is why much of Africa is still not universally electrified.  But liquid fuels can be transported and is well-suited to local use where people are far too sophisticated to contribute to global warming in their own neighborhood.  They insist on contributing to global warming elsewhere, where they cannot see it.

OK then.  We can play that game, and make a ton of money at the same time.  There is no need to protest the game really, for humanity needs energy, so we must play the energy game and we must deal with the consequences.  From what I can see, the Chinese are in the best place to do that, because they do things like that: buy African territory, defend the hell out of it and build mega-projects on the area they bought.  India also has developing nation status and also has long-range vision.

spike

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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Sun Mar 27 14:51:31 2022
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 10:51:31 -0400
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFiK7x__-U2V2je+0f==Ev33SzL2ZFskiXp0u_68o3430w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <011201d83b32$d3c7a630$7b56f290$@rainier66.com>
 <497940D5-5AED-4973-9863-CBB4F30FB6C6@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <004201d840cc$a7f7a380$f7e6ea80$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <CAKrqSyE83KfRKzorn48GKe41e2W-3iz2mrEqQ4ETMHuh8p37hw@mail.gmail.com>

No, I reject the idea that you are an expert.

It's one thing if the drugs only have physiological effects, even if it's
not ideal since you don't understand what the side effects feel like.  You
can still feel confident about their effects in a functionalist sense.  But
for psychoactive drugs, I think prescribers being inexperienced in their
actual effects is one of the reasons so many drugs are wrongly prescribed.
It's insane to me that--having actually taken amphetamines, for
example--someone could prescribe amphetamines without having experienced
the effects.  Because without having taken them, I am confident in saying
you have NO CLUE what they actually do.  The behavioral observations and
the physiological data tell like 1% of the story when it comes to what
these drugs do.  Some drugs are just about the physiological data, ok it
lowers blood pressure, here ya go.  No problem.  But it honestly disgusts
me that doctors prescribe amphetamine without knowing what it actually
does.  And I would bet a large sum of money that if you tried amphetamine,
you would be a lot more conservative in the amount of people you prescribe
it to.

Yes, I am shitting on your expertise and education, because I think they
haven't actually prepared you to responsibly prescribe psychoactive
medications.  At the very least prescribers should be required to consult a
self-bioassaying drug geek like myself who actually knows what these drugs
do.

On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 3:43 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 10:49 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> I don't think people should be allowed to speak in such an opinionated
>> manner regarding drugs if they haven't tried them themselves.  It's like
>> saying you're an expert on the color red if you can only see in black and
>> white.
>>
>
> ### Do I need to take every drug before I prescribe it to my patients, or
> would you perhaps let me speak about drugs to patients based on my
> knowledge of the relevant published research? Because, well, I *am* an
> expert on neurological drugs, even if I don't take them.
>
> Rafal
> --
> Rafal Smigrodzki, MD-PhD
> Schuyler Biotech PLLC
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Mar 27 15:48:41 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 08:48:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Michio Kaku makes 3 predictions about the future
In-Reply-To: <005501d841e9$f689a1b0$e39ce510$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armjaM_kvb_EyTXcmg2dC35EdddoP5yWWSt43mnQxnMf-8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRWm7NcqMfsxsPiuC=PUV0gY7RO1edZ3kLUL21VLseQnQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <009601d8413a$f15a1170$d40e3450$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNRqA1i1Adb6biAbzDfFPAXWS5Nm-CNsE47cALX2YNXyug@mail.gmail.com>
 <000e01d84143$d806fae0$8814f0a0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armgstQYyRR+Nn4mXpgDYrsx2m3CGZkeDKnc6-nVOAu1x+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <002101d84152$48489670$d8d9c350$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYvQDyx79Qb7k5NHjJC5ShpQZDyfgTAdJ3ogiRnPVPh_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <003001d84169$5b0b5330$1121f990$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa07gJy2rWHxGu7--J5ZNvAXiwpE3aWLSdqhTD=ZehZFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <005501d841e9$f689a1b0$e39ce510$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <007401d841f2$2233c9a0$669b5ce0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 



Earlier I wrote:

>?OK then.  We can play that game? the Chinese are in the best place to do it, because they do things like that: buy African territory, defend the hell out of it and build mega-projects on the area they bought.  India also has developing nation status and also has long-range vision.

spike

 

 

Below is a list of winners of a nationwide contest, held in the USA.

Does anyone here wish to tell me what they see?  Dr. Rafal, what do you see in this list, me lad?  What sport do you think this is please?  The list is related to my previous commentary, very indirectly, but related.

spike

 


Y

Bai

8

William Diamond Middle School

Lexington, MA


Y

Bao

10

Skyline High School

Sammamish, WA


D

CHEN

8

Whitney M Young Magnet High School

CHICAGO, IL


S

Cheng

7

Areteem Institute

Lake Forest, CA


Z

Cheng

9

Dougherty Valley High School

San Ramon, CA


K

CHENG

9

Geffen Academy at UCLA

CULVER CITY, CA


A

CHENG

8

North Central College

NAPERVILLE, IL


A

Chon

9

Veritas Education

Vienna, VA


E

Debnath

10

Hillsborough High School

Hillsborough, NJ


Y

Ding

9

AlphaStar Academy

Santa Clara, CA


J

Dong

10

San Bernardino Math Circle

Chino Hills, CA


S

EKANATHAN

9

Lexington High School

LEXINGTON, MA


S

Elgart

10

Bard College

Annadale-on-Hudson, NY


H

GAN

10

Hunter College High School

NYC, NY


A

GUO

10

Adlai E. Stevenson High School

VERNON HILLS, IL


S

Guo

10

Irvington High School

Fremont, CA


A

Gupta

10

Saint Francis High School

Mountain View, CA


J

Hu

10

Ann-Hua Math

Dearborn, MI


I

JONES

10

Milpitas High School

MILPITAS, CA


R

Kapoor

10

Russian School of Mathematics

Newton, MA


E

Kaur

8

UT Dallas

Richardson, TX


A

KIM

8

Odle middle school

BELLEVUE, WA


W

Ku

10

South Pasadena

South Pasadena, CA


I

Lee

10

Crystal Springs Uplands School

Hillsborough, CA


A

Leis

10

Ingraham High School

Seattle, WA


J

Li

9

Conestoga HS

BERWYN, PA


D

Li

10

Henry M. Gunn High School

Palo Alto, CA


A

LI

9

Highland Park High School

DALLAS, TX


A

Li

10

Horace Mann School

Bronx, NY


R

Li

9

Ocean Lakes High School

Virginia Beach, VA


M

Li

9

troy high school

Troy, MI


W

Lin

7

Gauss Academy of Mathematical Education

Princeton, NJ


I

Liu

9

Dunbar High School

Fort Myers, FL


S

LOU

9

Stuyvesant High School

REGO PARK, NY


R

Lu

10

Sunshine Elite

Portland, OR


K

Luo

9

Henry M. Gunn High School

Palo Alto, CA

 

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From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Mar 27 15:48:22 2022
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 16:48:22 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Michio Kaku makes 3 predictions about the future
In-Reply-To: <005501d841e9$f689a1b0$e39ce510$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armjaM_kvb_EyTXcmg2dC35EdddoP5yWWSt43mnQxnMf-8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRWm7NcqMfsxsPiuC=PUV0gY7RO1edZ3kLUL21VLseQnQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <009601d8413a$f15a1170$d40e3450$@rainier66.com>
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 <002101d84152$48489670$d8d9c350$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYvQDyx79Qb7k5NHjJC5ShpQZDyfgTAdJ3ogiRnPVPh_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <003001d84169$5b0b5330$1121f990$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa07gJy2rWHxGu7--J5ZNvAXiwpE3aWLSdqhTD=ZehZFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <005501d841e9$f689a1b0$e39ce510$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhf66PFMNrACdOg3E1vEgAzJ25_SkBexSSZfCK7X4emVA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 at 15:52, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> The enormous solar colony I envision is bootstrapped using energy generated by nuclear reactors in West Sahara, cooled by seawater.  The whole operation would be owned and operated by the Chinese, who pay no attention to environmentalists and don?t get too concerned about international pressure.  They have developing nation status, which means they get to do whatever they want, regardless of how rich they become.  It is unclear when a developing nation becomes a no-longer developing nation.  It is unclear why the USA can be considered non-developing.  Any ideas?
>
> These big West Sahara schemes do come with an environmental price, as BillK pointed out.  This I do not dispute, nor do I dispute that enormous solar factories will contribute to global warming.  I do wish for us to recognize however that global warming in itself need not be catastrophic.  We can tolerate some of it.
>
<snip>
>
> OK then.  We can play that game, and make a ton of money at the same time.  There is no need to protest the game really, for humanity needs energy, so we must play the energy game and we must deal with the consequences.  From what I can see, the Chinese are in the best place to do that, because they do things like that: buy African territory, defend the hell out of it and build mega-projects on the area they bought.  India also has developing nation status and also has long-range vision.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


One big problem with that is that it is the same mistake that Europe
made when they made themselves dependent on cheap oil and natural gas
from Russia. Russia can shut down Europe if they get really upset.

Now you suggest that China should have control of the tap to turn off
a huge solar power complex in the Sahara?  No way, Hosay, - as you
would say!   :)


BillK


From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Sun Mar 27 16:03:31 2022
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 12:03:31 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Michio Kaku makes 3 predictions about the future
In-Reply-To: <007401d841f2$2233c9a0$669b5ce0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armjaM_kvb_EyTXcmg2dC35EdddoP5yWWSt43mnQxnMf-8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRWm7NcqMfsxsPiuC=PUV0gY7RO1edZ3kLUL21VLseQnQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <009601d8413a$f15a1170$d40e3450$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNRqA1i1Adb6biAbzDfFPAXWS5Nm-CNsE47cALX2YNXyug@mail.gmail.com>
 <000e01d84143$d806fae0$8814f0a0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armgstQYyRR+Nn4mXpgDYrsx2m3CGZkeDKnc6-nVOAu1x+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <002101d84152$48489670$d8d9c350$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYvQDyx79Qb7k5NHjJC5ShpQZDyfgTAdJ3ogiRnPVPh_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <003001d84169$5b0b5330$1121f990$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa07gJy2rWHxGu7--J5ZNvAXiwpE3aWLSdqhTD=ZehZFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <005501d841e9$f689a1b0$e39ce510$@rainier66.com>
 <007401d841f2$2233c9a0$669b5ce0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <d6ff333839171c3215851ee17414e37b.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>

oooh, spike -

I know who I see in your list!  Well done, contrats to him!  Good to know
some of the younger generation is up to snuff. :)  Looks pretty "Asian",
doesn't it, over all.

Warm regards,
MB


From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Mar 27 17:44:22 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 10:44:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] video which changed my perspective
Message-ID: <009601d84202$4b749910$e25dcb30$@rainier66.com>

 

I saw this on videotape when I was in college 40 years ago.  It rocked my world.  Still does:

 

(138) Carl Sagan's Pale Blue Dot OFFICIAL - YouTube <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO5FwsblpT8> 

 

spike

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From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Mar 27 17:50:29 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 10:50:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Michio Kaku makes 3 predictions about the future
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhf66PFMNrACdOg3E1vEgAzJ25_SkBexSSZfCK7X4emVA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjaM_kvb_EyTXcmg2dC35EdddoP5yWWSt43mnQxnMf-8Q@mail.gmail.com>
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-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat
...
>
>> OK then.  We can play that game, and make a ton of money at the same time.  There is no need to protest the game really, for humanity needs energy, so we must play the energy game and we must deal with the consequences.  From what I can see, the Chinese are in the best place to do that, because they do things like that: buy African territory, defend the hell out of it and build mega-projects on the area they bought.  India also has developing nation status and also has long-range vision.
>
>> spike
> _______________________________________________


>...One big problem with that is that it is the same mistake that Europe made when they made themselves dependent on cheap oil and natural gas from Russia. Russia can shut down Europe if they get really upset.

>....Now you suggest that China should have control of the tap to turn off a huge solar power complex in the Sahara?  No way, Hosay, - as you
would say!   :)


>...BillK

_______________________________________________


BillK, note that I never used the word "should" anywhere in my prediction.  The appropriate word is "will."  Developing nations are immune from should, and are all about will.  They get to do whatever they want.  Once identified as a developing nation, there is no known procedure for declaring them developed regardless of how prosperous, and no known procedure for developed nations to revert back to developing, regardless of how impoverished they become.

There is no stopping China at this point.  They will colonize the hell outta Africa and they will build stuff like the project I word-sketched.  India will be right behind them.

spike





From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Mar 27 18:06:22 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 11:06:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Michio Kaku makes 3 predictions about the future
In-Reply-To: <d6ff333839171c3215851ee17414e37b.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
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...> On Behalf Of MB via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] Michio Kaku makes 3 predictions about the future

oooh, spike -

>...I know who I see in your list!  Well done, contrats to him!  Good to
know some of the younger generation is up to snuff. :)  Looks pretty
"Asian", doesn't it, over all.

Warm regards,
MB

_______________________________________________


Sure does MB, thanks for the congrats, and ja the obvious signal might have
given you a big clue on what kind of contest that was.  It was the American
Math Competition.

If you do well on the first ones, scroll down and look at the last ones.
They are in order from easiest to hardest:

https://artofproblemsolving.com/wiki/index.php/2018_AMC_10A_Problems

25 questions, 75 minutes.  The sport is being completely dominated by Asian
Americans.  When we administered the test locally, there were 70 competitors
and my son was the only blondie in the group, the only one.

Fun aside: I introduced my son to the sport when he was in grade 8.  He
loved the puzzles as much as I did when I was his age.  I started out
demonstrating that I was smarter than an 8th grader.  But he got better.
Now he kicks my butt so bad, I now hafta reach over my shoulder after I take
a dump.  

American Math Competition is a reasonable proxy for engineering skill.

If I may be so bold as to state the obvious: in the West, we are getting
ourselves wrapped around the axle trying to figure out if there is any real
difference between male and female (simple proof: if XX=XY then X=Y) while
Asia is not worrying about that question.  Asia is focusing on transforming
the planet.  They will colonize the hell outta Africa and build
mega-projects there.  

spike


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Mar 27 19:24:15 2022
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 14:24:15 -0500
Subject: [ExI] emotional deficits in sci-fi
In-Reply-To: <20220326200821.Horde.VVVazsqqWLxCrDlFBDwBZXC@sollegro.com>
References: <20220326200821.Horde.VVVazsqqWLxCrDlFBDwBZXC@sollegro.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZ_qARd_Cw74bqRwKZgivJo2cER=4Jg3LPWrwg-ht+q=Q@mail.gmail.com>

I read all of the Expanse books (anyone want them?) and have no complaint
about them except that I did not like the ending.  Philip Dick is pretty
much of an exception to anything.  I don't read dystopian or horror
fiction.  Downers.  bill

On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 10:10 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> Quoting William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>:
>
> > I have been reading sci-fi for nearly 70 years (first book Farmer in the
> > Sky).  I have finally noticed something:
> >
> > The characters in the books are on the other end of the scale from
> > hypersensitivity.  They are dullards.
> >
>
> I think a lot depends upon the authors who write the stories. Some are
> bright Asperger's folks who write about the science, technology, and
> adventure really well, but then fall back on tropes and archetypes for
> the characters and relationships. A very rare few get it right
> emotionally. Some of the most emotionally intelligent and believable
> science fiction stories are the Blade Runner movies loosely based on
> "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep" by Phillip K. Dick. For a
> science fiction writer, Phillip K. Dick was actually very good in most
> of his stories at the emotional aspects of character development and
> relationships.
>
> Incidentally, if science fiction books are seeming emotionally flat
> these days, you should check out some of the science fiction films
> that are out there. As much a fan I am of Phillip K. Dick, the
> combination of Dick and Ridley Scott is pure magic. I highly recommend
> both "Blade Runner" and "Blade Runner 2049" for their emotional
> content. Sensitive people will cry at either movie.
>
> > When contact is made with aliens or alien technology or artifacts, there
> is
> > some surprise, but very soon it's all matter of fact - highly interested,
> > still, but not afraid.
> >
> > Fear is our strongest emotion and it is tailor made for reacting to
> aliens
> > - which means strong fear and strong suspicions and so on.
>
> > When did you ever read of a character fainting?  Having a panic attack?
> > Running away?  Or any other sign of great fear?
>
> Well that pretty much describes much of the plot of the Alien movie
> Dan O'Bannon and directed by, you guessed it, Ridley Scott.
>
> > Apparently nearly all of the characters are heroes of some sort who just
> > don't show fear.  They do say it sometimes.  But don't act that way.
> > People in intense fear make mistakes, are clumsy, make poor decisions.
>
>
> Your complaint that heroes don't exhibit enough fear is a criticism
> not just of science fiction, but of all of literature. It is because
> courage is the defining hallmark of heroes and antiheroes throughout
> literature. In science fiction, there is also the added character
> trait and motivation of curiosity. So no, most science fiction heroes
> will not soil themselves when seeing an alien for the first time,
> instead, the average science fiction hero will be intent on trying to
> get ahold of the alien's technology or capture one for study or
> something similar.
>
> There is a subgenre of science fiction called survival-horror that
> seems to be better represented in cinema than in print. In these
> stories, the majority of the characters panic, and die because of it,
> while the few survivors keep their heads and become the de facto
> heroes because of it. Often times the hero survives their first
> encounter with the aliens or other unknown threat by sheer luck, but
> learns enough from the experience to keep from panicking the next
> encounter.
>
> > In other words:  the main problem with scifi is that it is unrealistic!
>
> Some good realistic science fiction survival-horror movies are "Europa
> Report" and "Pandorum". While more survival than horror, the books and
> TV series, "the Expanse", is also very realistic, in my opinion.
>
> Stuart LaForge
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Mar 28 00:34:46 2022
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 19:34:46 -0500
Subject: [ExI] isaac
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbcpYnskmn5mi+UjfKqqsUY_P3aqPGT2Os6n_schB7Fmg@mail.gmail.com>

Good-looking kid, Spike.  You should have had a dozen of him.

bill w
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Mon Mar 28 02:57:37 2022
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 22:57:37 -0400
Subject: [ExI] video which changed my perspective
In-Reply-To: <009601d84202$4b749910$e25dcb30$@rainier66.com>
References: <009601d84202$4b749910$e25dcb30$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyFfAQiPHWykGezaz=grJsD6QfKtBJykbyNQV6YY-_5BVw@mail.gmail.com>

If you like this video you'd probably like the drugs Sagan took to help him
think like this ;)

On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 1:45 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> I saw this on videotape when I was in college 40 years ago.  It rocked my
> world.  Still does:
>
>
>
> (138) Carl Sagan's Pale Blue Dot OFFICIAL - YouTube
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO5FwsblpT8>
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Mon Mar 28 03:13:35 2022
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 23:13:35 -0400
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyE83KfRKzorn48GKe41e2W-3iz2mrEqQ4ETMHuh8p37hw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAKrqSyEokjBEJstp2qzZmRUK3K1bXONPZf-0WtEAfA9aCALzdw@mail.gmail.com>

And I guess as a follow-up to that little paragraph I would ask WHY doctors
DON'T try the psychoactive drugs they prescribe.  Awful side effects are
usually rare, especially if you just try them once to see what they feel
like.  And if you're that scared of the effects, how could you feel
comfortable prescribing them so freely?  For someone who cares about
intelligence, science, and information, you think it would be a no-brainer
to gain that wealth of new information by taking the drug--information you
literally cannot possibly obtain elsewhere, since it is essentially pure
qualia.  To come back to the color example, imagine you had a pill that let
greyscale-seers see color for the first time, and yet you had no idea what
color looked like.  You're telling me you wouldn't take the drug just to be
more knowledgeable?  Why?  Fear?  Decades of brainwashing education?  Pure
stubbornness?  I just don't understand.  It's not that scary or difficult
to try a mild dose of a drug.  Refusing to experience these things, if one
is dealing in them, should be considered an overt mark against that
practitioner.  Not singling you out; this applies to everyone, in my
opinion.  I would consider it equal to or perhaps worse than a doctor who
refused to read a chapter in a textbook about a drug he or she was
prescribing, or refused to attend a seminar on the newest medical
technique, but uses it anyway.  You simply cannot understand these drugs
without doing them.

It's sad because I would say you could pick a random, middlingly
intelligent amphetamine user off the street and they would have just as
much to offer in counseling someone on the use of amphetamine as a doctor
who prescribes it.  THAT is how much information is contained in the
experience itself.  Of course, this means that a doctor who is also
experienced in these drugs is the clear paragon of knowledge--I'm not
saying that it isn't extremely useful, and necessary, for a doctor to know
how drugs work and how they move throughout the body.  I just think the
experience is as important.  The great thing is, you don't need to go to
school for 8 years for that part; the tough part is already done.  All you
have to do is give yourself the experience.  And then you will be more of
an expert than any doctor who hasn't had the experience.

On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 10:51 AM Will Steinberg <steinberg.will at gmail.com>
wrote:

> No, I reject the idea that you are an expert.
>
> It's one thing if the drugs only have physiological effects, even if it's
> not ideal since you don't understand what the side effects feel like.  You
> can still feel confident about their effects in a functionalist sense.  But
> for psychoactive drugs, I think prescribers being inexperienced in their
> actual effects is one of the reasons so many drugs are wrongly prescribed.
> It's insane to me that--having actually taken amphetamines, for
> example--someone could prescribe amphetamines without having experienced
> the effects.  Because without having taken them, I am confident in saying
> you have NO CLUE what they actually do.  The behavioral observations and
> the physiological data tell like 1% of the story when it comes to what
> these drugs do.  Some drugs are just about the physiological data, ok it
> lowers blood pressure, here ya go.  No problem.  But it honestly disgusts
> me that doctors prescribe amphetamine without knowing what it actually
> does.  And I would bet a large sum of money that if you tried amphetamine,
> you would be a lot more conservative in the amount of people you prescribe
> it to.
>
> Yes, I am shitting on your expertise and education, because I think they
> haven't actually prepared you to responsibly prescribe psychoactive
> medications.  At the very least prescribers should be required to consult a
> self-bioassaying drug geek like myself who actually knows what these drugs
> do.
>
> On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 3:43 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 10:49 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I don't think people should be allowed to speak in such an opinionated
>>> manner regarding drugs if they haven't tried them themselves.  It's like
>>> saying you're an expert on the color red if you can only see in black and
>>> white.
>>>
>>
>> ### Do I need to take every drug before I prescribe it to my patients, or
>> would you perhaps let me speak about drugs to patients based on my
>> knowledge of the relevant published research? Because, well, I *am* an
>> expert on neurological drugs, even if I don't take them.
>>
>> Rafal
>> --
>> Rafal Smigrodzki, MD-PhD
>> Schuyler Biotech PLLC
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Mar 28 03:43:29 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 20:43:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] video which changed my perspective
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyFfAQiPHWykGezaz=grJsD6QfKtBJykbyNQV6YY-_5BVw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009601d84202$4b749910$e25dcb30$@rainier66.com>
 <CAKrqSyFfAQiPHWykGezaz=grJsD6QfKtBJykbyNQV6YY-_5BVw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004401d84255$fdb80aa0$f9281fe0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] video which changed my perspective

 

>If you like this video you'd probably like the drugs Sagan took to help him think like this ;)

 

Will, I am pretty sure Sagan wasn?t stoned when he made that video.

 

I live near enough to San Francisco to see what has happened to the place since they decided they won?t try to stop junkies from doing their thing there.  Now one does not take one?s own vehicle in there unless you enjoy having it plundered.  The subway station and the bus station, along with the usual places have homeless junkies shambling about, sleeping for a while but always waking to a grinding hunger for more of whatever it was which put them there to start with.  

 

I understand there are plenty of functional addicts, however we don?t see them.  We see the dysfunctional addicts.  I see vastly insufficient payoff for the visible risk in any of it.  I have a great time without it, without any of it including alcohol.  I have a lot of fun inside this head, more than I deserve.  I will not risk that to see if there is still more fun with some kind of chemical additive.

 

But speaking of chemical-free fun and Sagan?

 

Back about 10 years ago, SETI was bouncing around trying to find a place to have our meetings, which were excellent.  They were very generally about SETI but other astronomy topics were covered with excellent guest speakers.  The venue was over on the Microsloth?s Silicon Valley campus.  As I was going in, I noticed Jill Tarter was coming in behind me.  I knew who she was, but had never met her face to face.  I was trying to get up the nerve to introduce myself.  We went up the stairs toward the auditorium.  Realizing it was my last chance, I turned to her and said ?Dr. Tarter, I really liked your acting in that movie.?  She looked puzzled, taking the bait.  I said ?You are that actress who played the lead role in Jody Foster?s autobiography.?  Well, it worked.  She was laughing at my silliness right when we walked into the auditorium together.  So now all these SETIers think that I am big buddies with Jill Tarter, when in reality she doesn?t know me from Adam?s off ox.

 

Will, I have fun in this head without chemicals.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 1:45 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

 

I saw this on videotape when I was in college 40 years ago.  It rocked my world.  Still does:

 

(138) Carl Sagan's Pale Blue Dot OFFICIAL - YouTube <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO5FwsblpT8> 

 

spike

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Mon Mar 28 06:58:50 2022
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 02:58:50 -0400
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEY3xOjSFCpvE1ORfk1v6JUC7bh33Qr7THN3OvLr0JgNSA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <011201d83b32$d3c7a630$7b56f290$@rainier66.com>
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On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 8:54 AM William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Rafal, I object to the title of scaremongerer.  In fact I think it insults
> this group, though even very highly educated people may not know just how
> bad overuse can be.  I very obviously know of amphetamines' uses in ADHD
> and so on by qualified physicians.  If I advised people not to get obese
> because of the threat of high blood pressure and diabetes, would I be
> scaremongering?  Hardly.  Clearly there are people who take uppers who are
> not aware of the dangers (not our group, likely).
>


### What did you write? "An amphetamine psychosis is among the very worst:
 *lack of concentration, delusions of persecution, increased motor
activity, disorganization of thoughts, lack of insight, anxiety, suspicion
and auditory hallucinations - don't mess with amphetamines unless you know
when to stop and can."*

What did I write? "True but irrelevant scaremongering".

Yeah, I think my characterization was correct. As I said, it is true that
massive overuse of amphetamines is bad for you but this is not relevant for
people using amphetamines under a physician's supervision, and yes, this
kind of scaremongering has scared many patients and parents away from using
amphetamines. There is a huge amount of hysteria aimed against "drugging
our children", making them "zombies" when in fact amphetamines are highly
beneficial for a lot of people. I once prescribed 5 mg of Adderall per day
to a 30-something year old woman who came to my clinic with complaints of
"not being able to do things, being distracted and stressed out". I
diagnosed her with adult ADD and she was reluctant to try, with all the
horror stories she heard about the drug but a month later she returned for
follow-up and said "It changed my life" (for the better, of course). The
risk of abuse and dose escalation is very low when amphetamine is taken
under a physician's supervision and the benefits are very well documented,
so talking about "amphetamine psychosis" except in the context of illegal
abuse just shouldn't happen.

Also, people who abuse meth do know the dangers. They know what happens to
their friends who overdo it, they heard stories, but they don't care. On
the other hand, a lot of people who could benefit from medical amphetamine
but are not immersed in the drug culture don't know enough about its safety
profile and they think they would put themselves in great danger if they
started using it, all because of scare stories in the media.

Rafal
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From nuala.t at gmail.com  Mon Mar 28 07:09:56 2022
From: nuala.t at gmail.com (Nuala Thomson)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 17:09:56 +1000
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyEokjBEJstp2qzZmRUK3K1bXONPZf-0WtEAfA9aCALzdw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <011201d83b32$d3c7a630$7b56f290$@rainier66.com>
 <497940D5-5AED-4973-9863-CBB4F30FB6C6@alumni.virginia.edu>
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Message-ID: <CAEc3cquNbd0COZ_-xBZDpTND9kJfh3o4njjJXP6w5X34iLpEJg@mail.gmail.com>

I'm going to chime in at this point.
I firmly believe that everyone who has the mental capacity to try LSD
should, I'm a firm believer in microdosing mdma for marriage counselling.
In general I'm pretty pro drugs but also pro help for those who require it
from abuse, bad reactions, etc. And i would never force it upon someone who
simply did not want that experience.
However, the idea that doctors would try all prescribed medications to know
what they feel like is ludicrous. They way I've been reading this thought
is 'all pharmaceuticals and illicit drugs', so I may have misinterpreted.
Going with what I've understood, lets take anti-depressants for an example
for pharmaceuticals. Trying a small amount as a 1 off or, for most of them,
anything less than a month would yield absolutely no experience for the
doctor. Now if that doctor did not actually require antidepressants and
they continue to "try" it for the recommended 1-3 months before deciding if
it is 'right for them' they could very well end up with serotonin syndrome.
If we're talking about dexamphetamines (adderall i think in USA) then sure
there shouldn't be any long term side effects. Like I said, I've been
reading your idea as ALL drugs, and that could end exceptionally badly. But
also consider, that's 1 person trialing 60+ medications in what time
period? What are the long term repurcussions going to be?
I understand a point, I try to help as many recovering addicts as I can,
and I especially like to work with homeless women and children because my
history lays there and I can connect on a level of experience and survival.
So yes, I know what different drugs feel like and what they do to the body,
I'm certainly not going to trial drugs I do not need or want.
Still, LSD for everyone who wants to open their mind and change the way
they think. I believe it helps with self awareness and awakening. Some
people do not feel like they would be able to handle it, that's fine. Some
people are afraid, and I especially don't recommend taking a trip with fear
in your soul. That's a recipe for disaster. Shroom body load is too heavy
for me.
My 2 cents.

On Mon., Mar. 28, 2022, 13:15 Will Steinberg via extropy-chat, <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> And I guess as a follow-up to that little paragraph I would ask WHY
> doctors DON'T try the psychoactive drugs they prescribe.  Awful side
> effects are usually rare, especially if you just try them once to see what
> they feel like.  And if you're that scared of the effects, how could you
> feel comfortable prescribing them so freely?  For someone who cares about
> intelligence, science, and information, you think it would be a no-brainer
> to gain that wealth of new information by taking the drug--information you
> literally cannot possibly obtain elsewhere, since it is essentially pure
> qualia.  To come back to the color example, imagine you had a pill that let
> greyscale-seers see color for the first time, and yet you had no idea what
> color looked like.  You're telling me you wouldn't take the drug just to be
> more knowledgeable?  Why?  Fear?  Decades of brainwashing education?  Pure
> stubbornness?  I just don't understand.  It's not that scary or difficult
> to try a mild dose of a drug.  Refusing to experience these things, if one
> is dealing in them, should be considered an overt mark against that
> practitioner.  Not singling you out; this applies to everyone, in my
> opinion.  I would consider it equal to or perhaps worse than a doctor who
> refused to read a chapter in a textbook about a drug he or she was
> prescribing, or refused to attend a seminar on the newest medical
> technique, but uses it anyway.  You simply cannot understand these drugs
> without doing them.
>
> It's sad because I would say you could pick a random, middlingly
> intelligent amphetamine user off the street and they would have just as
> much to offer in counseling someone on the use of amphetamine as a doctor
> who prescribes it.  THAT is how much information is contained in the
> experience itself.  Of course, this means that a doctor who is also
> experienced in these drugs is the clear paragon of knowledge--I'm not
> saying that it isn't extremely useful, and necessary, for a doctor to know
> how drugs work and how they move throughout the body.  I just think the
> experience is as important.  The great thing is, you don't need to go to
> school for 8 years for that part; the tough part is already done.  All you
> have to do is give yourself the experience.  And then you will be more of
> an expert than any doctor who hasn't had the experience.
>
> On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 10:51 AM Will Steinberg <steinberg.will at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> No, I reject the idea that you are an expert.
>>
>> It's one thing if the drugs only have physiological effects, even if it's
>> not ideal since you don't understand what the side effects feel like.  You
>> can still feel confident about their effects in a functionalist sense.  But
>> for psychoactive drugs, I think prescribers being inexperienced in their
>> actual effects is one of the reasons so many drugs are wrongly prescribed.
>> It's insane to me that--having actually taken amphetamines, for
>> example--someone could prescribe amphetamines without having experienced
>> the effects.  Because without having taken them, I am confident in saying
>> you have NO CLUE what they actually do.  The behavioral observations and
>> the physiological data tell like 1% of the story when it comes to what
>> these drugs do.  Some drugs are just about the physiological data, ok it
>> lowers blood pressure, here ya go.  No problem.  But it honestly disgusts
>> me that doctors prescribe amphetamine without knowing what it actually
>> does.  And I would bet a large sum of money that if you tried amphetamine,
>> you would be a lot more conservative in the amount of people you prescribe
>> it to.
>>
>> Yes, I am shitting on your expertise and education, because I think they
>> haven't actually prepared you to responsibly prescribe psychoactive
>> medications.  At the very least prescribers should be required to consult a
>> self-bioassaying drug geek like myself who actually knows what these drugs
>> do.
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 3:43 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 10:49 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't think people should be allowed to speak in such an opinionated
>>>> manner regarding drugs if they haven't tried them themselves.  It's like
>>>> saying you're an expert on the color red if you can only see in black and
>>>> white.
>>>>
>>>
>>> ### Do I need to take every drug before I prescribe it to my patients,
>>> or would you perhaps let me speak about drugs to patients based on my
>>> knowledge of the relevant published research? Because, well, I *am* an
>>> expert on neurological drugs, even if I don't take them.
>>>
>>> Rafal
>>> --
>>> Rafal Smigrodzki, MD-PhD
>>> Schuyler Biotech PLLC
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Mon Mar 28 07:18:44 2022
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 03:18:44 -0400
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyE83KfRKzorn48GKe41e2W-3iz2mrEqQ4ETMHuh8p37hw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <011201d83b32$d3c7a630$7b56f290$@rainier66.com>
 <497940D5-5AED-4973-9863-CBB4F30FB6C6@alumni.virginia.edu>
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Message-ID: <CAAc1gFjMsLwJdzvsOTU+pQP=QfEgwAKksS61Tu8woVOdSTMeGg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 10:51 AM Will Steinberg <steinberg.will at gmail.com>
wrote:

> No, I reject the idea that you are an expert.
>
> It's one thing if the drugs only have physiological effects, even if it's
> not ideal since you don't understand what the side effects feel like.  You
> can still feel confident about their effects in a functionalist sense.  But
> for psychoactive drugs, I think prescribers being inexperienced in their
> actual effects is one of the reasons so many drugs are wrongly prescribed.
> It's insane to me that--having actually taken amphetamines, for
> example--someone could prescribe amphetamines without having experienced
> the effects.  Because without having taken them, I am confident in saying
> you have NO CLUE what they actually do.  The behavioral observations and
> the physiological data tell like 1% of the story when it comes to what
> these drugs do.  Some drugs are just about the physiological data, ok it
> lowers blood pressure, here ya go.  No problem.  But it honestly disgusts
> me that doctors prescribe amphetamine without knowing what it actually
> does.  And I would bet a large sum of money that if you tried amphetamine,
> you would be a lot more conservative in the amount of people you prescribe
> it to.
>

### Oh, but I do know what 10 mg Adderall "actually" does. It makes it
possible for a person to attend to tasks that are useful but were too
boring to be done without the medication. It makes it possible to succeed
in school and at a desk job for smart people who don't have the ability to
concentrate on reading for many hours, which is necessary to succeed in
many modern situations. I am lucky. I can read for hours and I never needed
pharmacological help to succeed at school but I know many people who would
be relegated to menial jobs without such help. I wouldn't try amphetamine
because I am not the kind of person who benefits from it but I would never
try to dissuade a patient who meets the criteria for ADD or ADHD from
trying. And if they don't like it - they can always stop, low dose Adderall
is not addictive. And yes, I am always prescribing the lowest amount to
start with and I carefully titrate if needed.

Or take Geodon. I am not a demented, agitated patient wiht stroke at night
in a strange, dark place where people poke me with needles. I don't jump
out of bed, unaware that half my body is paralyzed, I don't smash my head
on the floor. I am not in distress, screaming my lungs out, not knowing
what's going on. But many of the patients I take care of are in that
situation. So what should I do? Should I take Geodon myself, conclude that
I don't like it (because it can make you feel fuzzy around the edges) and
then based on this anecdotal experience deny this to patients who need it?
Should I just let them suffer? Let them hurt themselves? Order physical
restraints, tie them to the bed so they will scream even louder? Or maybe
just use 5 mg Geodon IM, which I can tell you is a very low dose but very
effective in giving the patients a good night's sleep, so they can get out
of this place sooner?

Don't try to teach me medicine, Will. You don't know enough.

Rafal
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Mon Mar 28 07:40:16 2022
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 03:40:16 -0400
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyEokjBEJstp2qzZmRUK3K1bXONPZf-0WtEAfA9aCALzdw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <011201d83b32$d3c7a630$7b56f290$@rainier66.com>
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 <CAAc1gFiK7x__-U2V2je+0f==Ev33SzL2ZFskiXp0u_68o3430w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyE83KfRKzorn48GKe41e2W-3iz2mrEqQ4ETMHuh8p37hw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAAc1gFidSvWnrCK2CDmmBpMNELdjgJ2O-7zsde1E8Ty2hAY7+A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 11:13 PM Will Steinberg <steinberg.will at gmail.com>
wrote:

> And I guess as a follow-up to that little paragraph I would ask WHY
> doctors DON'T try the psychoactive drugs they prescribe.  Awful side
> effects are usually rare, especially if you just try them once to see what
> they feel like.  And if you're that scared of the effects, how could you
> feel comfortable prescribing them so freely?  For someone who cares about
> intelligence, science, and information, you think it would be a no-brainer
> to gain that wealth of new information by taking the drug--information you
> literally cannot possibly obtain elsewhere, since it is essentially pure
> qualia.
>

### Anecdotes don't make medicine. Me getting jittery or weirded out on
some stuff doesn't advance knowledge. Placebo controlled studies with
well-defined endpoints and correct statistics is how real medicine
succeeds. Most other stuff is just hearsay.
------------------------------


> To come back to the color example, imagine you had a pill that let
> greyscale-seers see color for the first time, and yet you had no idea what
> color looked like.  You're telling me you wouldn't take the drug just to be
> more knowledgeable?  Why?  Fear?  Decades of brainwashing education?  Pure
> stubbornness?  I just don't understand.  It's not that scary or difficult
> to try a mild dose of a drug.
>

### People differ. As I said, I can read for hours. As a child I could
spend 6 hours straight doing chemical calculation testing from a handbook
just for fun, not for school. I could spend three hours a day every day for
a couple of years, learning exactly forty new English or German words every
day, and then return the next day to check retention and re-learn what I
didn't get the first time. Or spend days reading the encyclopedia, all 13
books of it, it took up a whole shelf in my father's bookcase. But most
people couldn't do it. What's the use of me taking 5 mg Adderall and being
able to read for 8 hours straight, just to prove the point, or something?
What matters is published research and well-founded standards of practice,
which I follow.

Up To Date is my best friend.
-----------------------

>
> It's sad because I would say you could pick a random, middlingly
> intelligent amphetamine user off the street and they would have just as
> much to offer in counseling someone on the use of amphetamine as a doctor
> who prescribes it.
>

### How much is that user taking? 500 mg? How is that relevant to me
prescribing 5 mg? Don't swallow the whole bottle of pills in one session,
yes, that's good advice which I can give without additional consultations.

Rafal
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Mon Mar 28 08:07:27 2022
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 04:07:27 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Michio Kaku makes 3 predictions about the future
In-Reply-To: <003401d841e3$ab49ed00$01ddc700$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armjaM_kvb_EyTXcmg2dC35EdddoP5yWWSt43mnQxnMf-8Q@mail.gmail.com>
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On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 10:05 AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
> Using power directly is relatively efficient I agree, however it has
> disadvantages too.  We will never have electric jet liners for instance,
> and electric cars have their limitations.
>

### You are right but there are few limitations to fully electrifying the
economy. Intercontinental flight and flying to orbit will require fuels but
this is just a small fraction of what we use energy for.
-------------------

> Farm equipment is ill-suited for any power source which needs a long time
> to recharge, for during the short season, harvesters run 24/7.  My farmer
> friends tell me the reason for that is there is no 25/8.
>

### Battery swap is an option for special purposes.

----------------------------

>
>
> On the other hand, given places like the Sahara, we can afford atrocious
> efficiency and still do what we need to do.  That would be the ideal site
> to start making those 30 TWh of storage capacity, which I agree is needed.
> I stand with my prediction that a Sahara energy colony will predate and is
> prerequisite to any significant development on Mars.
>
>
>

### I doubt it. The benefit of having a lot of cheap space and high
insolation is offset by the cost of transmission to places that matter
economically, and by the cost of being located in a chaotic third world
situation.

And just to be clear, I am still in favor of using fossil fuels for as long
as they are cheap enough, because fossil fuels are good for people and good
for the planet.

Rafal
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Mon Mar 28 08:14:21 2022
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 04:14:21 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Michio Kaku makes 3 predictions about the future
In-Reply-To: <007401d841f2$2233c9a0$669b5ce0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armjaM_kvb_EyTXcmg2dC35EdddoP5yWWSt43mnQxnMf-8Q@mail.gmail.com>
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On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 11:50 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> Below is a list of winners of a nationwide contest, held in the USA.
>
> Does anyone here wish to tell me what they see?  Dr. Rafal, what do you
> see in this list, me lad?  What sport do you think this is please?  The
> list is related to my previous commentary, very indirectly, but related.
>

### Congratulations to Mr Jones Jr!

This said, the Chinese have made themselves very unpopular in Africa.
Mainland Chinese tend to be quite racist and see Africans as inferior.
Buying the elites while ruthlessly exploiting regular folks tends to
backfire, eventually.

Rafal
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From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Mon Mar 28 13:05:22 2022
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 09:05:22 -0400
Subject: [ExI] video which changed my perspective
In-Reply-To: <004401d84255$fdb80aa0$f9281fe0$@rainier66.com>
References: <009601d84202$4b749910$e25dcb30$@rainier66.com>
 <CAKrqSyFfAQiPHWykGezaz=grJsD6QfKtBJykbyNQV6YY-_5BVw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <f8ed2767143c148cc15c91a7e79c765f.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>



On Sun, March 27, 2022 23:43, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:

> I understand there are plenty of functional addicts, however we don?t see
> them.  We see the dysfunctional addicts.  I see vastly insufficient payoff
> for the visible risk in any of it.  I have a great time without it,
> without any of it including alcohol.  I have a lot of fun inside this
> head, more than I deserve.  I will not risk that to see if there is still
> more fun with some kind of chemical additive.
>

I don't live anywhere near San Fran, but I've seen dysfunctional addicts
and ordinary people just experimenting.

Back in the 60s when I was in school there were plenty of kids trying out
various things.  It was so bad to watch that even as a rather thoughtless
20-something I decided that I did *not* want to go there, to be trying
whatever it was they were taking.  My college experience led me to become
the designated driver,  as the other guys scared me stiff.

Alcohol was tricky enough, thanks very much.  At present I know people of
retirement age trying to wean themselves from that - and having terrible
trouble.  So glad I made the choices I did.

If I missed something wonderful, at least I didn't fall into that pit.

YMMV.

Regards,
MB




From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Mar 28 14:01:21 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 07:01:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <CAEc3cquNbd0COZ_-xBZDpTND9kJfh3o4njjJXP6w5X34iLpEJg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <011201d83b32$d3c7a630$7b56f290$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <006301d842ac$4e7072b0$eb515810$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of Nuala Thomson via extropy-chat
?

>?Still, LSD for everyone who wants to open their mind and change the way they think?

 

Hi Nuala, thanks for that clarification.  My mind is already open and I like the way I think now, before I try anything.  I have fun in here already, with no chemical additives.  My mind is so open, I completely accept and embrace your notion, for it is in perfect agreement with my thinking: if you like the way you think, then leave the chemicals alone.  If not, then you know where to start, good luck and evolution speed.

 

>?I believe it helps with self awareness?

 

I already know of me.  I began suspecting the existence of myself a long time ago.  Looked in a mirror one day and realized who that was, recognized me before I could even speak, but would have said HEY!  There is a me!  I am myself!  I became self-aware that day.

 

>?and awakening?

 

I use caffeine for that.  Great stuff it is, hot, black, copious quantities of that wonderful stuff I devour.  Its delectable essence tempts the palates of connoisseurs from both hemispheres; for those of more delicate sensibilities, it adds a still more aesthetic charm.   

 

>?Some people do not feel like they would be able to handle it, that's fine?

 

Many of the people who feel that way are right.  I can take you to San Francisco and show you plenty of examples of people who couldn?t handle it.  They are easy to find.  They are nearly impossible to not find.

 

In their cases it isn?t fine, because it is difficult or impossible to get back to where they were before they started with the junk they couldn?t handle.  My attitude and advice for the young is the same as always: if you really think you need medications, go see your doctor.  If you want to play amateur pharmacist, get on a train, go into San Francisco or really any one of the big cities, find the ones you already know I am talking about and recognize the risk that your ass might be joining them in as little as a few years, vagabonds, homeless, burnt out, hollow shells of the humans they once were, useless, waiting to die, which in many cases they won?t need to wait long.

 

We know it doesn?t happen to all.  But it damn well does happen to some.

 

So? my suggestion is the same: if your brain is working right, then work with it as is.  Have fun in there.  Get your kicks on Route 66 (note my domain name) go hiking in the outdoors, leave the mushrooms alone and the rest of it too, get your Rocky Mounty high by camping or just being in the actual literal Rocky Mountains.  It is really cool and fun to be completely sober without even the old standard, alcohol.  Best of all, it?s free.  It doesn?t cost anything to not take recreational pharmaceuticals.

 

Thanks for your input Nuala, I do appreciate your POV and we are glad you are here.

 

spike

 

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Mar 28 14:20:32 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 07:20:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Michio Kaku makes 3 predictions about the future
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFh=jXmXQYS6z_kFe=ZZRUgbyJrbOUk-4x723VJkV63-2g@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <007101d842ae$fc766570$f5633050$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat



 

---------------------------- 

 

On the other hand, given places like the Sahara, we can afford atrocious efficiency and still do what we need to do.  That would be the ideal site to start making those 30 TWh of storage capacity, which I agree is needed.  I stand with my prediction that a Sahara energy colony will predate and is prerequisite to any significant development on Mars.

 

 

### I doubt it. The benefit of having a lot of cheap space and high insolation is offset by the cost of transmission to places that matter economically?

 

Ja that is where you and I differ.  If we create liquid fuels from coal or other carbon source (it doesn?t need to be coal (wood or any other plant source will do)) we can haul it aboard ships to anywhere on the planet economically.  We are using the liquid fuel as a means of transmitting energy generated (or converted) in a place with lots of it going to waste.

 

>? by the cost of being located in a chaotic third world situation?

 

Ja, but it does not need to stay a chaotic third world situation forever, and I am predicting that it will not.  A developed nation (or in China?s case a perpetually developing nation) can buy a territory, defend it, convert it, enrich it, develop the hell out of it, create jobs, establish order from chaos.  We have plenty of examples of it in history everywhere on the planet.

 

> ?And just to be clear, I am still in favor of using fossil fuels for as long as they are cheap enough, because fossil fuels are good for people and good for the planet.

 

Rafal

 

Me too.  They are well-suited for many applications.  We can have an electrified economy and still use some liquid fuels for some purposes.  What I have envisioned is supplying most of humanity?s energy needs using solar energy collected in the currently barren, deserted Sahara and transmitted everywhere in the form of synthetic octane and Diesel carried on well-defended ships.

 

spike

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Mar 28 14:20:50 2022
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 09:20:50 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFhQmq-AeW12tBE-uY1L0cofprX37nm802EQXF=53-VkTQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <011201d83b32$d3c7a630$7b56f290$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <CAO+xQEa_dK55MKGC=zVEFfNV9x86cEZ360bf2OmKsfe6+Eb98A@mail.gmail.com>

Calling me a scaremonger is also calling me stupid.  Who would ever think
to do that to the people in this group?  Someone very stupid.  If you think
that anyone in this group would respond to it then you are calling them
stupid.  Not everyone knows about amphetamine psychoses and I just thought
I'd tell them.  That's all.  You owe all of us an apology though of course
we will not get it.  We know what you are.    bill w

On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 2:01 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 8:54 AM William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Rafal, I object to the title of scaremongerer.  In fact I think it
>> insults this group, though even very highly educated people may not know
>> just how bad overuse can be.  I very obviously know of amphetamines' uses
>> in ADHD and so on by qualified physicians.  If I advised people not to get
>> obese because of the threat of high blood pressure and diabetes, would I be
>> scaremongering?  Hardly.  Clearly there are people who take uppers who are
>> not aware of the dangers (not our group, likely).
>>
>
>
> ### What did you write? "An amphetamine psychosis is among the very
> worst:   *lack of concentration, delusions of persecution, increased
> motor activity, disorganization of thoughts, lack of insight, anxiety,
> suspicion and auditory hallucinations - don't mess with amphetamines unless
> you know when to stop and can."*
>
> What did I write? "True but irrelevant scaremongering".
>
> Yeah, I think my characterization was correct. As I said, it is true that
> massive overuse of amphetamines is bad for you but this is not relevant for
> people using amphetamines under a physician's supervision, and yes, this
> kind of scaremongering has scared many patients and parents away from using
> amphetamines. There is a huge amount of hysteria aimed against "drugging
> our children", making them "zombies" when in fact amphetamines are highly
> beneficial for a lot of people. I once prescribed 5 mg of Adderall per day
> to a 30-something year old woman who came to my clinic with complaints of
> "not being able to do things, being distracted and stressed out". I
> diagnosed her with adult ADD and she was reluctant to try, with all the
> horror stories she heard about the drug but a month later she returned for
> follow-up and said "It changed my life" (for the better, of course). The
> risk of abuse and dose escalation is very low when amphetamine is taken
> under a physician's supervision and the benefits are very well documented,
> so talking about "amphetamine psychosis" except in the context of illegal
> abuse just shouldn't happen.
>
> Also, people who abuse meth do know the dangers. They know what happens to
> their friends who overdo it, they heard stories, but they don't care. On
> the other hand, a lot of people who could benefit from medical amphetamine
> but are not immersed in the drug culture don't know enough about its safety
> profile and they think they would put themselves in great danger if they
> started using it, all because of scare stories in the media.
>
> Rafal
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Mar 28 14:33:36 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 07:33:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Michio Kaku makes 3 predictions about the future
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFgX3danOJ6pQ0RJO7r8mLUxDW8kiGJsN+PVVPgo7pLzQA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjaM_kvb_EyTXcmg2dC35EdddoP5yWWSt43mnQxnMf-8Q@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <008501d842b0$cf85a830$6e90f890$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat



 

### Congratulations to Mr Jones Jr!

 

Thx.

 

>?This said, the Chinese have made themselves very unpopular in Africa. Mainland Chinese tend to be quite racist and see Africans as inferior. Buying the elites while ruthlessly exploiting regular folks tends to backfire, eventually.

 

Rafal 

 

 

 

Ja, but not as unpopular as they are going to be, once they start creating the megaprojects I envision are inevitable in places like West Sahara.  The plans will backfire, but the Chinese are the kind of people who will fire back at the backfire.  In that battle, I would bet on the Chinese because there are way more of them, they have buttloads of money and they are far more technologically advanced.  Territory can be bought and it can be defended.  Megaprojects can be defended, and will be.

 

Another take on it: the immediate neighbors would benefit: they get low cost electric power, they get commerce up the kazoo, jobs like they have never seen before, jobs supplying coal, iron ore, building materials and workers, as much new trade as they want.  A perpetually impoverished region of the globe could become prosperous as all hell, they could build technological schools and universities specifically tuned to training engineers to build energy conversion technology, which people would come from all over the planet to attend.  

 

Think of the whole notion as the energy analog to what has happened in Ireland with information technology.  West Africa could become the world?s powerplant, just as Ireland is developing into the world?s IT hotspot.  West Africa could become like Ireland, only more so.  In a generation, the Africans in that area could have a whole new attitude.

 

spike

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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Mar 28 15:13:54 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 08:13:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] video which changed my perspective
In-Reply-To: <f8ed2767143c148cc15c91a7e79c765f.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
References: <009601d84202$4b749910$e25dcb30$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <009501d842b6$70e53420$52af9c60$@rainier66.com>


...> On Behalf Of MB via extropy-chat

>...My college experience led me to become the designated driver...
Regards,
MB



_______________________________________________


Me too MB, but I was the designated driver in high school, before the term was invented.  I did that distasteful task exactly one time, on 3 June 1977, Lakeland Florida, rained-out Led Zeppelin "concert" and oh mercy, never never again, thus quoth the raven, nevermore.  

I was one of those desperate proles seeking safety in the upper tier of the stadium, viewing the riots from as much distance as possible and cheering for the cops (quietly.)  For about two hours after the riot started, there was no way out of that stadium.

The cops eventually won that: 36 to 9 was the reported final score.

spike



From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Mar 28 15:21:55 2022
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 16:21:55 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Michio Kaku makes 3 predictions about the future
In-Reply-To: <007101d842ae$fc766570$f5633050$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <CAL_armjKQ6CzZ=pFTjPwaD60rt69_Y-aBd2Ouc3keN4gfTdNmw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 28 Mar 2022 at 15:22, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
<snip>
>
> Ja, but it does not need to stay a chaotic third world situation forever, and I am predicting that it will not.  A developed nation (or in China?s case a perpetually developing nation) can buy a territory, defend it, convert it, enrich it, develop the hell out of it, create jobs, establish order from chaos.  We have plenty of examples of it in history everywhere on the planet.
>
> Me too.  They are well-suited for many applications.  We can have an electrified economy and still use some liquid fuels for some purposes.  What I have envisioned is supplying most of humanity?s energy needs using solar energy collected in the currently barren, deserted Sahara and transmitted everywhere in the form of synthetic octane and Diesel carried on well-defended ships.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


China is busy installing solar power in their Gobi desert and other
desert areas in the west of their country with plans going up to 2025.
So probably it will be at least a few years before they do much in the Sahara
(if ever).

<https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/chinas-solar-power-capacity-set-record-increase-2022-industry-body-2022-02-23/>
Quotes:
China's solar power capacity set for record increase in 2022
February 23, 2022

China is expected to add 75 to 90 gigawatts (GW) of solar power in
2022, its solar manufacturing association said on Wednesday, far
higher than a record increase in capacity last year.

The world's biggest solar products maker and solar power generator
brought 54.88 GW of new solar power into operation in 2021, taking the
total installed capacity to 306 GW despite a supply disruption of raw
materials.

China could add an average of 83 to 99 GW of new capacity each year
during 2022 to 2025, said Wang Bohua, honorary chairman of the China
Photovoltaic Industry Association (CPIA), at a conference.

Projects to build more large-scale solar stations in the Gobi and
other desert regions in the west are also in the pipeline, with
construction for about 100 GW of solar power capacity already under
way in the area.
---------------

BillK


From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Mon Mar 28 15:59:29 2022
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 11:59:29 -0400
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEa_dK55MKGC=zVEFfNV9x86cEZ360bf2OmKsfe6+Eb98A@mail.gmail.com>
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Spike--do you conflate junkies with users of any drugs?  The people on the
street usually aren't the same people using small doses of psychedelics for
learning and introspection.  The fact that you see all drug users (besides
caffeine and booze users, I guess) under one umbrella shows me that your
opinion is more just about upbringing and bias.  I would also argue that
you are probably not as self-aware as you think.  It's ok, nobody really
is.  But you should understand, for example, that I often look at your
writings and it seems like you are operating on bias a lot of the time,
parroting basic right-wing-tv talking points (which I may or may not
vaguely agree with, but lack nuance nonetheless,) in general acting as a
caricature some of the time.  Which we all do--it's tough not to fall
victim to overuse of heuristics. Psychedelics simply help us take a step
back and look at ourselves.  I don't really understand why you'd think
coffee is ok but amphetamines or psychedelics aren't, besides bias.  My
younger brother avoided caffeine for years for the same reasons you claim
to be avoiding other drugs.

Nuala and Rafal--of course it wouldn't be tenable to take everything,
particularly stuff like you mentioned that needs a month to build up.  But
the experience is free, safe, and quick for many drugs.  I just don't
understand why someone who understands that getting information from
textbooks is good would also not conclude that getting information from
drug experiences themselves is good.

So basically I am just asking, why not?  Because you don't "need" it?  Need
is subjective.  It certainly would improve your understanding.  And if you
elect not to do an easy, free, quick thing that would improve understanding
of your job, that just seems like fear or ignorance to me.

I vaguely agree that pharmaceuticals are often useful but I think they are
far overused in western medicine.  Much of what is accomplished with drugs
could be accomplished with counseling, education, physical/mental therapy,
yoga, meditation, etc, all of which have plenty of legitimate backing in
scientific literature.

Rafal, you say I don't know enough, but I have taken both amphetamine as
well as ziprasidone.  So I would say in the field of knowing what those
drugs feel like, I absolutely, constructively know more than you on that
front, because I simply have access to knowledge that you don't have.  And
all I'm saying is that it would be easy for you to fix this, try them, and
then your knowledge would be superior to mine.

I also think worship of certain types of scientific study is an error in
modern medicine.  Heck, we even write papers on "anecdotes", they're called
case studies.  The fact is that as rigorous as a study is, if it doesn't
ask a certain question, or look at a certain variable, the knowledge gained
on that axis is a big fat zero.  And I am saying that without knowing how
these drugs feel, there are variables you can't have knowledge of, and thus
can't study.  Often I read papers on drugs and find myself amazed that the
questions they are asking are so incorrect with relation to the experience
itself, particularly with psychedelics.  For this reason, Spike's chess
experiment is silly, but I would have a hard time explaining why to someone
who hasn't taken psychedelics, just like I would have a hard time
explaining certain statistical errors to someone who didn't understand
probability distributions and hypothesis testing.

Anyway I suppose we disagree in the sense that you seem to think taking
amphetamine, ziprasidone, &c. one time each, to gain information, is
somehow not worth it--a safety thing, I guess?  Which strikes me as
hypocritical in some way if you'd happily prescribe repeated doses of those
to someone.  Why not just try them?

On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 10:27 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Calling me a scaremonger is also calling me stupid.  Who would ever think
> to do that to the people in this group?  Someone very stupid.  If you think
> that anyone in this group would respond to it then you are calling them
> stupid.  Not everyone knows about amphetamine psychoses and I just thought
> I'd tell them.  That's all.  You owe all of us an apology though of course
> we will not get it.  We know what you are.    bill w
>
> On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 2:01 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 8:54 AM William Flynn Wallace <
>> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Rafal, I object to the title of scaremongerer.  In fact I think it
>>> insults this group, though even very highly educated people may not know
>>> just how bad overuse can be.  I very obviously know of amphetamines' uses
>>> in ADHD and so on by qualified physicians.  If I advised people not to get
>>> obese because of the threat of high blood pressure and diabetes, would I be
>>> scaremongering?  Hardly.  Clearly there are people who take uppers who are
>>> not aware of the dangers (not our group, likely).
>>>
>>
>>
>> ### What did you write? "An amphetamine psychosis is among the very
>> worst:   *lack of concentration, delusions of persecution, increased
>> motor activity, disorganization of thoughts, lack of insight, anxiety,
>> suspicion and auditory hallucinations - don't mess with amphetamines unless
>> you know when to stop and can."*
>>
>> What did I write? "True but irrelevant scaremongering".
>>
>> Yeah, I think my characterization was correct. As I said, it is true that
>> massive overuse of amphetamines is bad for you but this is not relevant for
>> people using amphetamines under a physician's supervision, and yes, this
>> kind of scaremongering has scared many patients and parents away from using
>> amphetamines. There is a huge amount of hysteria aimed against "drugging
>> our children", making them "zombies" when in fact amphetamines are highly
>> beneficial for a lot of people. I once prescribed 5 mg of Adderall per day
>> to a 30-something year old woman who came to my clinic with complaints of
>> "not being able to do things, being distracted and stressed out". I
>> diagnosed her with adult ADD and she was reluctant to try, with all the
>> horror stories she heard about the drug but a month later she returned for
>> follow-up and said "It changed my life" (for the better, of course). The
>> risk of abuse and dose escalation is very low when amphetamine is taken
>> under a physician's supervision and the benefits are very well documented,
>> so talking about "amphetamine psychosis" except in the context of illegal
>> abuse just shouldn't happen.
>>
>> Also, people who abuse meth do know the dangers. They know what happens
>> to their friends who overdo it, they heard stories, but they don't care. On
>> the other hand, a lot of people who could benefit from medical amphetamine
>> but are not immersed in the drug culture don't know enough about its safety
>> profile and they think they would put themselves in great danger if they
>> started using it, all because of scare stories in the media.
>>
>> Rafal
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Mar 28 16:25:58 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 09:25:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Michio Kaku makes 3 predictions about the future
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... <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat


... spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
<snip>
>
>> Ja, but it does not need to stay a chaotic third world situation forever, and I am predicting that it will not.  A developed nation (or in China?s case a perpetually developing nation) can buy a territory, defend it, convert it, enrich it, develop the hell out of it, create jobs, establish order from chaos.  We have plenty of examples of it in history everywhere on the planet... spike




>...China is busy installing solar power in their Gobi desert and other desert areas in the west of their country with plans going up to 2025.
So probably it will be at least a few years before they do much in the Sahara (if ever).

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/chinas-solar-power-capacity-set-record-increase-2022-industry-body-2022-02-23/

...
---------------

BillK

_______________________________________________

BillK, the reason I am betting in the long run on China developing the Sahara rather than the Gobi is that the latter is too far from the sea.  With West Sahara, they (or another country) could buy the land cheap (even if they buy it from four different "owners") defend it, develop it, haul in raw materials from the sea and haul out finished products the same way.  Given money and technology, the coast of West Sahara could look like San Diego, with a hip, swinging night life, a luxurious lifestyle to attract mod hipsters wanting to go there to work and have some fun.  The continent of Africa need not be consigned to its current dismal state forever.

On that bit about hauling out finished products: consider the notion of oil tankers.  We know those lumbering beasts sometimes get caught in storms or perhaps attacked by hostiles, in some cases just to see what happens when a million gallons of refined fuel burns.  But what if... we hauled refined liquid fuels using subsurface vessels (the "we" being humanity (not necessarily China (but possibly China (they appear to be in the lead currently (the Chinese are commies but not stupid.)))))  A submarine tanker would not be particularly expensive to build because it doesn't need to be a nuke (and wouldn't be for that application.)  It could be an air-breathing Diesel rig, which wouldn't be fast of course, but it wouldn't need to be.

Engineers among us, do the calcs.  A submersible tanker need not go deep (and wouldn't.)  It would have a snorkel for the Diesel engines and a periscope to watch for trouble.  It could putter to Lisbon at a leisurely ten knots, take a coupla weeks to get there, from there onto trucks or train cars where the fuel could be hauled anywhere in Europe overland.  It could be shipped that way to Brazil in twice that time or even North America if you have a lot of patience.  Note that our current fuel tankers are not particularly fast either, but they don't need to be.  In the event of a storm, the submersible just pulls in the snorkel, sits quietly down there safe and unconcerned a day or two until the sun comes out, scarcely aware of maelstrom raging a couple dozen meters above. 

Regarding solar generation in the Gobi, the only real advantage I can see is that China already owns it.  But many of us can see what would happen if they buy Western Sahara: they will develop it, the locals will see what happened, then... eventually... China will buy its way all the way across there, like a manifest destiny, owning everything north of Nigeria between the Atlantic and the Red Sea.  If you go into Google Maps earth view for Africa, I can imagine China and India owning everything brown, and some of that in green.  Note there is no should, but rather just will.  The article mentions Chinese plans going out to 2025, but I am thinking about the half century after that.

Engineers among us, do some BOTECs for submersible fuel tankers please.  Mine are showing the whole notion is practical.

spike



From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Mar 28 16:46:11 2022
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 09:46:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] video which changed my perspective
In-Reply-To: <f8ed2767143c148cc15c91a7e79c765f.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
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On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 6:06 AM MB via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Back in the 60s when I was in school there were plenty of kids trying out
> various things.  It was so bad to watch that even as a rather thoughtless
> 20-something I decided that I did *not* want to go there, to be trying
> whatever it was they were taking.  My college experience led me to become
> the designated driver,  as the other guys scared me stiff.
>
> Alcohol was tricky enough, thanks very much.  At present I know people of
> retirement age trying to wean themselves from that - and having terrible
> trouble.  So glad I made the choices I did.
>
> If I missed something wonderful, at least I didn't fall into that pit.
>

Same, if more recent.  I know that it can be pleasurable in the moment.
It's what comes after that moment that's the problem.  Mere pleasure can be
had in far less self-destructive ways.
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Mon Mar 28 17:04:03 2022
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 13:04:03 -0400
Subject: [ExI] video which changed my perspective
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQaghPvV6H-2DjSOz_K3yYPP_+ROFeU26f-nr2khFteoA@mail.gmail.com>
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@MB:

"Alcohol was tricky enough": there is this thinking that alcohol is somehow
not serious and other drugs are worse.  This couldn't be further from the
truth.  Alcohol, of course, is tricky--very addictive, easily available,
causes accidents, violence, health problems, toxicity, sexual assault,
other poor choices and violent actions.  Alcohol is one of the most harmful
drugs.  Psychedelics, dissociatives, marijuana, are all less 'tricky' than
alcohol in terms of social/self harm potential.  "That pit" you describe is
a pit of addiction and health issues, which psychedelics aren't really
implicated in.  Of course in the wrong setting they can be bad, but good
trips can be highly encouraged by the right environment and guru.

@Adrian:

" I know that it can be pleasurable in the moment.  It's what comes after
that moment that's the problem.  Mere pleasure can be had in far less
self-destructive ways.":  What exactly are we talking about?  Your comment
makes sense for booze, opiates, perhaps stimulants.  But for something like
psychedelics, pleasure isn't really the point.  The point is a novel
sensory/learning experience that specifically has long-term positive
effects.  While the trip could be confusing or difficult, the aftereffects
are the real meat.  In that sense they are almost opposite to alcohol.

I think it is a TRAVESTY that intelligent people have been scared away from
psychedelics.  You guys being so against them is insane to me.  Taking a
psychedelic is like visiting the most unbelievable museum, using your brain
in ways you did not think possible.  They are some of the most
learning-oriented experiences I have ever had.  They do not remind me of
drugs like alcohol or opiates or speed.  They remind me of museums, school,
symphonies, great works of art and literature.  That is the category they
belong in.  That you seem to categorize them along something like alcohol
is, to me, merely a testament to the absolute degree of success of the
brainwashing campaigns by our government to convince people (including
smart people) that psychedelics are bad drugs that have bad effects.
Really, they are tools that can bring out power and intelligence you never
knew you had.  There's a reason so many successful humans (including
scientists, btw) have used psychedelics.  Crick himself was on LSD when he
was able to visualize the double-helix structure when mulling Franklin's
x-ray crystallography images.  That expansive, lateral, visual,
multi-thread thinking enabled by psychedelics led to the discovery of the
structure of DNA itself.

@Spike:

Don't know why you keep talking about addiction.  Psychedelics are not
addictive.  Those hobos are not LSD junkies.

"Will, I am pretty sure Sagan wasn?t stoned when he made that video.": How
do you know?  He was open about his experiences with LSD and marijuana and
they produce exactly the type of thinking in the video.  While I imagine he
wasn't on drugs while recording it, his thoughts within were almost
certainly influenced by the aforementioned drugs.  You can't bake an apple
pie without first creating the universe.  And you can't get Carl Sagan
without marijuana and LSD.

"I have fun in this head without chemicals": except coffee I guess?  You've
said a few things here extolling the cognitive benefits of coffee.  Why is
it any different?  I do a lot less psychedelics than my mother drinks
coffee (few times a year vs. multiple cups a day); I would say the bang for
my buck is far greater with the psychedelics, and if my mom doesn't have
coffee for a single day she gets pissed off, headaches, etc.  I haven't
tripped in months and the only aftereffects are positive ones.  Not sure
why the addictive drug that people must use every day or suffer cognitive
and physical side effects is somehow seen as morally superior to the
non-addictive drug that I can use once in my entire life and reap the
positive benefits forever.

On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 12:47 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 6:06 AM MB via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Back in the 60s when I was in school there were plenty of kids trying out
>> various things.  It was so bad to watch that even as a rather thoughtless
>> 20-something I decided that I did *not* want to go there, to be trying
>> whatever it was they were taking.  My college experience led me to become
>> the designated driver,  as the other guys scared me stiff.
>>
>> Alcohol was tricky enough, thanks very much.  At present I know people of
>> retirement age trying to wean themselves from that - and having terrible
>> trouble.  So glad I made the choices I did.
>>
>> If I missed something wonderful, at least I didn't fall into that pit.
>>
>
> Same, if more recent.  I know that it can be pleasurable in the moment.
> It's what comes after that moment that's the problem.  Mere pleasure can be
> had in far less self-destructive ways.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Mar 28 19:23:26 2022
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 14:23:26 -0500
Subject: [ExI] video which changed my perspective
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQaghPvV6H-2DjSOz_K3yYPP_+ROFeU26f-nr2khFteoA@mail.gmail.com>
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Mere pleasure can be had in far less self-destructive ways.    Adrian

Adrian, I did not know that you were an ascetic.  I would never pair the
word 'mere' with 'pleasure'   bill w

On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 11:48 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 6:06 AM MB via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Back in the 60s when I was in school there were plenty of kids trying out
>> various things.  It was so bad to watch that even as a rather thoughtless
>> 20-something I decided that I did *not* want to go there, to be trying
>> whatever it was they were taking.  My college experience led me to become
>> the designated driver,  as the other guys scared me stiff.
>>
>> Alcohol was tricky enough, thanks very much.  At present I know people of
>> retirement age trying to wean themselves from that - and having terrible
>> trouble.  So glad I made the choices I did.
>>
>> If I missed something wonderful, at least I didn't fall into that pit.
>>
>
> Same, if more recent.  I know that it can be pleasurable in the moment.
> It's what comes after that moment that's the problem.  Mere pleasure can be
> had in far less self-destructive ways.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Mar 28 20:07:58 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 13:07:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
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 <CAO+xQEYbUFDSvRmwsXmPODQsq=C1eNVSZw0WvqgMR-F0A-+-qQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFjF-ZWw-hQd8DiWvz3O5QhGrETdJd8t_0GJX-r=M5bURQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyFtZcSpzzvx4vr2+g37aw1_=tQt9MEZz1Z_WYuGPaK+TQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFiK7x__-U2V2je+0f==Ev33SzL2ZFskiXp0u_68o3430w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEY3xOjSFCpvE1ORfk1v6JUC7bh33Qr7THN3OvLr0JgNSA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFhQmq-AeW12tBE-uY1L0cofprX37nm802EQXF=53-VkTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEa_dK55MKGC=zVEFfNV9x86cEZ360bf2OmKsfe6+Eb98A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyEVZ8LrF8BZSsWLZ1_UpiwvXpKJCF4hNSDsnxNzyNJddg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <012b01d842df$858f4950$90addbf0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??

 

>?Spike--do you conflate junkies with users of any drugs?

 

Hi Will, I use the term junkies to specifically mean those who are dysfunctional in any way as a result of their habit.  They (and we) know who they are.  It isn?t hard to recognize.

 

I suspect that many of our abundant homeless got that way from dope use.  Living on the street is uncomfortable, so those who landed out there by other circumstances will likely seek chemical solace at some point.

 

If we see them, and we see needles strewn about, we know what that it.  The reason I think the notion of trying this or that generally doesn?t sell in this forum (and makes some of us squirm) is all about the cost/benefit ratio.  The benefits are subjective, theoretical and generally invisible to us.  The risk is objective as hell, concrete, painfully visible.

 

>?  The people on the street usually aren't the same people using small doses of psychedelics for learning and introspection.  The fact that you see all drug users (besides caffeine and booze users, I guess?

 

I recognize both caffeine and alcohol as drugs, each with their own risks.  Both are well-known.  

 

>?  I don't really understand why you'd think coffee is ok but amphetamines or psychedelics aren't, besides bias?

 

If taken in the form of a drink, there is zero risk of overdose with caffeine.  I suppose it could be done if devoured in pill form, but I don?t do that.

 

>?So basically I am just asking, why not?  Because you don't "need" it?  Need is subjective?

 

Exactly right.  The benefit is subjective, the risk is objective.  Game, set and match goes (every time) to objective.

 

All that being said, I applaud the recent dramatic increase in signal on ExI.  I missed you all.  There was a long quiet period, now filled with marvelous marvels of magnificence.

 

spike

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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Mar 28 20:28:02 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 13:28:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] vision for the next 50 years
Message-ID: <013801d842e2$53781390$fa683ab0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 



 

>?The benefits are subjective, theoretical and generally invisible to us.  The risk is objective as hell, concrete, painfully visible?spike

 

 

With the following essay I hope to outline a vision for the most optimistic estimate of my own lifetime, about 50 years, which assumes I make it well past 100 (unlikely I know but theoretically possible.)

 

We in USA live in times where we are fighting a proxy war with Russia in Ukraine, but we know that it very well could spill over into Poland at which time there is a very real risk of escalation: the planet?s two most heavily armed nations could duke it out with their most sincere and horrifying weapons.  This gives a whole new meaning to the term ?Duke Nukem.?  This is of course a grim vision indeed and I predict (and hope like hell) it does not happen.  But it might.

 

In the event that Russia and NATO nuke it out, Africa will be sitting down there below the line of fire, watching missiles going back and forth but being hit by none.  There isn?t much on that continent anyone would want to destroy.  When all the radioactive dust settles and the corpses buried, Africa is still sitting there, inviting technologically-advanced survivors.  You saw that map showing that the land area of Africa is equivalent to a hundred other nations.  There is plenty of room there to go back to where we started and build from there outward.

 

A nuclear holocaust doesn?t kill everyone on the planet.  It would kill billions, and perhaps billions more would starve in the nuclear winter described by Carl Sagan.  But a billion or two would survive, many of these in Africa.  In the nuclear winter scenario, sub-Saharan Africa is in relatively good shape.  If some tech-advanced society has a good solid toehold in lower Africa (or even the Sahara) then we could get a hundred years head start on getting back to where we were a month ago.

 

spike

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From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Mon Mar 28 20:59:19 2022
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 14:59:19 -0600
Subject: [ExI] vision for the next 50 years
In-Reply-To: <013801d842e2$53781390$fa683ab0$@rainier66.com>
References: <013801d842e2$53781390$fa683ab0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onvE64DE7TyiG8xkw0HFs628Uh2UCrhaJCY3kXCYzkoRXw@mail.gmail.com>

To which essay are you referring?

On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 2:28 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com>
>
>
>
> *>?*The benefits are subjective, theoretical and generally invisible to
> us.  The risk is objective as hell, concrete, painfully visible?spike
>
>
>
>
>
> With the following essay I hope to outline a vision for the most
> optimistic estimate of my own lifetime, about 50 years, which assumes I
> make it well past 100 (unlikely I know but theoretically possible.)
>
>
>
> We in USA live in times where we are fighting a proxy war with Russia in
> Ukraine, but we know that it very well could spill over into Poland at
> which time there is a very real risk of escalation: the planet?s two most
> heavily armed nations could duke it out with their most sincere and
> horrifying weapons.  This gives a whole new meaning to the term ?Duke
> Nukem.?  This is of course a grim vision indeed and I predict (and hope
> like hell) it does not happen.  But it might.
>
>
>
> In the event that Russia and NATO nuke it out, Africa will be sitting down
> there below the line of fire, watching missiles going back and forth but
> being hit by none.  There isn?t much on that continent anyone would want to
> destroy.  When all the radioactive dust settles and the corpses buried,
> Africa is still sitting there, inviting technologically-advanced
> survivors.  You saw that map showing that the land area of Africa is
> equivalent to a hundred other nations.  There is plenty of room there to go
> back to where we started and build from there outward.
>
>
>
> A nuclear holocaust doesn?t kill everyone on the planet.  It would kill
> billions, and perhaps billions more would starve in the nuclear winter
> described by Carl Sagan.  But a billion or two would survive, many of these
> in Africa.  In the nuclear winter scenario, sub-Saharan Africa is in
> relatively good shape.  If some tech-advanced society has a good solid
> toehold in lower Africa (or even the Sahara) then we could get a hundred
> years head start on getting back to where we were a month ago.
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Mar 28 21:08:31 2022
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 14:08:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] vision for the next 50 years
In-Reply-To: <013801d842e2$53781390$fa683ab0$@rainier66.com>
References: <013801d842e2$53781390$fa683ab0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRh6QaH3-X8+e5WSaDVeZ24gQRMEsf2Eb4dudqak3g5LQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 1:29 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> When all the radioactive dust settles and the corpses buried, Africa is
> still sitting there, inviting technologically-advanced survivors.
>

With general corruption way too high, and general education way too low, to
support technologically advanced economies.

If you want to set up a survivor colony in the desert, look instead to
Australia.
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Mar 28 21:54:40 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 14:54:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] vision for the next 50 years
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onvE64DE7TyiG8xkw0HFs628Uh2UCrhaJCY3kXCYzkoRXw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <013801d842e2$53781390$fa683ab0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onvE64DE7TyiG8xkw0HFs628Uh2UCrhaJCY3kXCYzkoRXw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <016701d842ee$6d77b140$486713c0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Brent Allsop via extropy-chat
Sent: Monday, 28 March, 2022 1:59 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] vision for the next 50 years

 

 

To which essay are you referring?  

 

Sorry Brent I didn?t have time to finish (or even start) the essay.  Consider the previous a kind of introduction.  Circumstances intervened.  Back later.

 

spike

 

 

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From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Mar 28 22:31:33 2022
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 15:31:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] video which changed my perspective
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYUr4kU3z4-PvYxmsZDKigufn1szOJqu5fF5qhGV3g12g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009601d84202$4b749910$e25dcb30$@rainier66.com>
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On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 12:25 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Mere pleasure can be had in far less self-destructive ways.    Adrian
>
> Adrian, I did not know that you were an ascetic.  I would never pair the
> word 'mere' with 'pleasure'   bill w
>

I don't think about it much, but I suppose the label fits.  I'm certainly
not the most extreme ascetic - I do engage in some pleasures from time to
time - but it is not the most important thing in my life, apparently to a
higher degree than most people.

Granted, I also find pleasure in certain intellectual pursuits.  Just last
night, an acquaintance wanted me to review a manuscript he is submitting
for publication, and it was a pleasure to perform the sort of review he
wished.  But I think these sorts of pleasures aren't counted in typical
ascetic/not-ascetic measurements.
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From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Mar 28 22:48:06 2022
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 15:48:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] video which changed my perspective
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyHVR7R6OVtJucJtOuVwn_XLx84fYc4_SsW1odXOdnT-Jw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009601d84202$4b749910$e25dcb30$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNRcR=nqgo4p_80eeznMwwPFpi_mHWfnvVafdrwkSuCkPQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 10:14 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> But for something like psychedelics, pleasure isn't really the point.  The
> point is a novel sensory/learning experience that specifically has
> long-term positive effects.
>

Uh huh.  A quick google on "lsd long term effects" brought up multiple
references that strongly disagree.  Listed symptoms of long term LSD use
(to take just one of the more well known examples) include:
* Diarrhea
* Restlessness or agitation
* Vomiting or nausea
* Irregular or rapid heartbeat
* Fever or high body temperature
* Seizures
* Hallucinations
* Loss of coordination
* Rapid changes in blood pressure

Many of these may indeed be novel, by definition, to those who have never
experienced them before.  But they strike me as neither learning
experiences (save for, "don't do this again") nor positive effects.

Maybe the hallucinations can be tapped to drive learning - but those who
can do that, can use non-psychedelic-induced pathways without the more
unambiguously negative effects.

While the trip could be confusing or difficult, the aftereffects are the
> real meat.  In that sense they are almost opposite to alcohol.
>

Insofar as the effects include reduced mental and physical capacity, they
may differ in the details but are close enough to alcohol's.


> Taking a psychedelic is like visiting the most unbelievable museum, using
> your brain in ways you did not think possible.
>

Do you really not believe that this can be done without using psychedelics
at all?

Every human being can dream, man.  Start by dreaming.  Let them guide you
toward these "impossible" ways, close enough that you can leap the rest of
the distance.
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From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Mon Mar 28 23:08:29 2022
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 19:08:29 -0400
Subject: [ExI] video which changed my perspective
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyHVR7R6OVtJucJtOuVwn_XLx84fYc4_SsW1odXOdnT-Jw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009601d84202$4b749910$e25dcb30$@rainier66.com>
 <CAKrqSyFfAQiPHWykGezaz=grJsD6QfKtBJykbyNQV6YY-_5BVw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <6fa05c82420c96b0cdbbec50da530ed7.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>

Will, I don't know what my schoolmates were taking - Weed and pills.  What
I *saw* told me I wanted no part of it... mostly they appeared somewhat
stupified, never interesting, active, articulate, funny, clever.  What
they reported was what you also say, but from the outside it looked
extremely dull and nothing I wanted to emulate.

The alcohol was typical collegiate: crazy behaviour, sometimes
belligerent, sometimes just stupid, often followed by puke and then
painful mornings. I found I much preferred being with those who did not
partake.  That is still the case, now almost 60 years later.

There was nothing attractive about any of it, from an outsider's perspective.

Not only that, everything but alcohol was highly illegal and that was a
game I wasn't interested in.

I agree that alcohol is dangerous. Probably more dangerous than many
drugs, partly because it is so socially acceptable and readily available
most anywhere. I am thankful that it does not appeal to me except as an
occasional flavoring agent in some foods. :)

Regards,
MB

On Mon, March 28, 2022 13:04, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote:
> @MB:
>
> "Alcohol was tricky enough": there is this thinking that alcohol is
> somehow
> not serious and other drugs are worse.  This couldn't be further from the
> truth.  Alcohol, of course, is tricky--very addictive, easily available,
> causes accidents, violence, health problems, toxicity, sexual assault,
> other poor choices and violent actions.  Alcohol is one of the most
> harmful
> drugs.  Psychedelics, dissociatives, marijuana, are all less 'tricky' than
> alcohol in terms of social/self harm potential.  "That pit" you describe
> is
> a pit of addiction and health issues, which psychedelics aren't really
> implicated in.  Of course in the wrong setting they can be bad, but good
> trips can be highly encouraged by the right environment and guru.
>


From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Mar 28 23:13:18 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 16:13:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] vision for the next 50 years
In-Reply-To: <016701d842ee$6d77b140$486713c0$@rainier66.com>
References: <013801d842e2$53781390$fa683ab0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onvE64DE7TyiG8xkw0HFs628Uh2UCrhaJCY3kXCYzkoRXw@mail.gmail.com>
 <016701d842ee$6d77b140$486713c0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <01d501d842f9$6966bbe0$3c3433a0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
?
Subject: Re: [ExI] vision for the next 50 years

 

 

>>?To which essay are you referring?  

 

>?Sorry Brent I didn?t have time to finish (or even start) the essay.  Consider the previous a kind of introduction.  Circumstances intervened.  Back later?spike

 

 

 

OK well dang.  Looks like the circumstances are growing beyond my initial estimate: scouts need help.  The essay will hafta wait, but it is just as well.  In the next few weeks we will likely find out if humanity will nuke ourselves back a century or two.  Our visions will likely be clarified soon, for better or for worse.  May it be for better.

 

In the meantime, I will mention why I think the chess test would be highly relevant to the question of why I proposed it to start with.  Various types of recreational pharmaceuticals cause the devourer to perceive that her brain is performing at a much higher level than normal, but of course the same brain is measuring itself, so we would need some form of objective measure.  I proposed the chess test as conclusive.  If for instance, a brain was performing at 1000 times speed, that player would win every game she played.  By my reasoning, that same brain would use so much energy it would quickly overheat.

 

I mentioned computer analysis of games.  Below is an example of a recent game I played with a similarly-rated player.  It was a clean game on my part with two great moves but no brilliancies.  I spotted her one mistake and jumped her ass for the win.  Note the numbers:

 



 

So? why would this kind of data be relevant to the question at hand?  

 

If an effective nootropic exists and we could identify it, such a thing would be easy to measure with the software freely available.  Even if it resulted in more blunders, if it also resulted in more brilliant ideas, it might be a reasonable tradeoff.

 

Chess is a far more useful proxy for the kinds of skills we are likely to need than a subjective notion of increased self-awareness.  We see the kind of trouble Ukraine is having with the commies.  Consider that soon Taiwan will have similar troubles with China.  We can be sadly confident that the USA will fail to intervene, for all the same reasons we don?t in Ukraine.

 

>From what I hear, Taiwan is the leading country in the world as far as microchip manufacturing and controls the entire market for the most advanced chips.  She who makes the best computer chips rules the world.  So? if China grabs Taiwan, China rules the world, at least until the USA builds some chip fabs and gets with the program on training actual engineers and scientists.

 

OK then, consider our premier universities, such as Berkeley.  Once considered the jewel in the crown of the scientific training centers in public education, Berkeley has heard the siren song in offering what I call lollipop degrees.  OK spike, what are lollipop degrees please?  Well, you know me.  Use your imagination.  Ja.  Those.

 

Suppose things go badly in either Ukraine or Taiwan, or both.  It is easy enough for me to imagine a sudden chance in attitude.  A new administration is swept into power at Berkeley, and she calls the students together with a clear message: all you bastards taking the lollipop degrees, get a real major or get your asses out of here.  We are now returning to our roots, when Robert Oppenheimer, Glenn Seaborg and Emilio Segre were here.  We have a job to do, and it isn?t studying gender or journalism.  It?s SCIENCE!  TECHNOLOGY!  ENGINEERING!  MATH!  If you aren?t one of those, then report to UC Davis for your lollipops.  We aren?t giving those out anymore.  STEM monsters welcome, the resta yas, out!

 

Do take the above paragraph with the appropriate sense of humor please, and my apologies to the UC Davis grads among us.  I had fun writing it, nothing against Davis.  The vision essay will hafta wait for now, but just as well.  Anything any of us write today is likely to be outdated to the point of irrelevance in the next few weeks.  May peace come to our conflicted planet soon.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Mar 28 23:25:10 2022
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 18:25:10 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <012b01d842df$858f4950$90addbf0$@rainier66.com>
References: <011201d83b32$d3c7a630$7b56f290$@rainier66.com>
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Two things we all know and are being left out:  that tobacco is the most
addicting drug ( I wanted to quit for years before I actually did (and
showed myself that it was easy)) and that three cups of coffee are very
good for our health as many recent studies show.  Of course one can abuse
anything - upside down U-shaped curve shows benefits rising then falling.
bill w

On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 3:10 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *?*> *On Behalf Of *Will Steinberg via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
>
>
>
> >?Spike--do you conflate junkies with users of any drugs?
>
>
>
> Hi Will, I use the term junkies to specifically mean those who are
> dysfunctional in any way as a result of their habit.  They (and we) know
> who they are.  It isn?t hard to recognize.
>
>
>
> I suspect that many of our abundant homeless got that way from dope use.
> Living on the street is uncomfortable, so those who landed out there by
> other circumstances will likely seek chemical solace at some point.
>
>
>
> If we see them, and we see needles strewn about, we know what that it.
> The reason I think the notion of trying this or that generally doesn?t sell
> in this forum (and makes some of us squirm) is all about the cost/benefit
> ratio.  The benefits are subjective, theoretical and generally invisible to
> us.  The risk is objective as hell, concrete, painfully visible.
>
>
>
> >?  The people on the street usually aren't the same people using small
> doses of psychedelics for learning and introspection.  The fact that you
> see all drug users (besides caffeine and booze users, I guess?
>
>
>
> I recognize both caffeine and alcohol as drugs, each with their own
> risks.  Both are well-known.
>
>
>
> >?  I don't really understand why you'd think coffee is ok but
> amphetamines or psychedelics aren't, besides bias?
>
>
>
> If taken in the form of a drink, there is zero risk of overdose with
> caffeine.  I suppose it could be done if devoured in pill form, but I don?t
> do that.
>
>
>
> >?So basically I am just asking, why not?  Because you don't "need" it?
> Need is subjective?
>
>
>
> Exactly right.  The benefit is subjective, the risk is objective.  Game,
> set and match goes (every time) to objective.
>
>
>
> All that being said, I applaud the recent dramatic increase in signal on
> ExI.  I missed you all.  There was a long quiet period, now filled with
> marvelous marvels of magnificence.
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Mar 28 23:42:14 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 16:42:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZsKE_7zVrVsyf3+yutBhVYxQ8A8Bp2d-D0ymzboSVtpg@mail.gmail.com>
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 mail.com>
Message-ID: <000e01d842fd$741c9920$5c55cb60$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??

 

>?Two things we all know and are being left out:  that tobacco is the most addicting drug ( I wanted to quit for years before I actually did (and showed myself that it was easy)) ?  bill w

 

Sure enough.  Billw, I don?t suspect there are many tobacco smokers among us, current or former.  You might be the lone ranger in that.

 

Congratulations on kicking the habit sir.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Mar 28 23:58:30 2022
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 18:58:30 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
In-Reply-To: <000e01d842fd$741c9920$5c55cb60$@rainier66.com>
References: <011201d83b32$d3c7a630$7b56f290$@rainier66.com>
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How powerful is tobacco?  I have been quit for 42 years and if I knew I was
going to die real soon I might just get a pack for the kick.  But alcohol?
No  bill w

On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 6:44 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] 27 psychedelics??
>
>
>
> >?Two things we all know and are being left out:  that tobacco is the
> most addicting drug ( I wanted to quit for years before I actually did (and
> showed myself that it was easy)) ?  bill w
>
>
>
> Sure enough.  Billw, I don?t suspect there are many tobacco smokers among
> us, current or former.  You might be the lone ranger in that.
>
>
>
> Congratulations on kicking the habit sir.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Tue Mar 29 00:41:02 2022
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 20:41:02 -0400
Subject: [ExI] video which changed my perspective
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRcR=nqgo4p_80eeznMwwPFpi_mHWfnvVafdrwkSuCkPQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009601d84202$4b749910$e25dcb30$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <CAKrqSyGLzZvzAKknzAFP5YiuYfcOmc-XBN3Q9NhAWjsFQnJT5w@mail.gmail.com>

@Adrian:

"long term LSD use": Lol, the amount of people who use LSD and psychedelics
chronically is extremely minute.  Like I said, these drugs are meant to be
taken a few times a year, if that.  Literally once in a lifetime suffices
for major positive changes.  I didn't say effects from long term use, I
said long-term effects.  The chances of lasting negative effects from a
single small dose of psychedelics is very low, and that is how they are
typically used.  Meanwhile the way something like alcohol is typically used
DOES often lead to lasting negative effects.

"Maybe the hallucinations can be tapped to drive learning": extreme
misunderstanding of what LSD does.  You think it makes you see pink
elephants?  Like I also said, it makes you think more expansively.  You can
think multiple things at once, think faster, in more intuitive and strange
ways.  You can comprehend entire ideas that would take hours to even begin
to think about sober.  When there are hallucinations, they are things like
shifting colors and fractals.  But no, the hallucinations are not what
drives learning.  I am not somehow tapping the cool fractals I see tripping
to give me insight on problems.  Giving insight on problems is a direct
effect of the drug through its actions on thought processes.

"Insofar as the effects include reduced mental and physical capacity, they
may differ in the details but are close enough to alcohol's.": Again, this
is talking about LONG TERM PSYCHEDELIC USE which is extremely rare.  I'm
not sure what exactly you are trying to prove or if you maybe don't keep up
with current scientific literature?  Using psychedelics in a positive
manner is a pretty popular concept in contemporary science, from *gasp*
real neuroscientists and psychologists!  Your idea of the effects is based
on a misunderstanding of my phrase 'long term' and in general shows you
don't quite know what you are talking about vis a vis the modern viewpoint
on these drugs.

"Do you really not believe that this can be done without using psychedelics
at all?": Sure, it can.  You could come up with all the ideas and math
behind string theory without ever taking any physics classes or ever
reading a textbook, too.  You can build a bridge by cutting the wood with
your fucking teeth, but humans are tool-using animals because tools are
useful.  Why otherwise intelligent people reject just this one incredibly
useful tool is, again, a testament to how effective propaganda is, and
proof that intelligence/book-smarts isn't nearly the same as insight and
resistance to manipulation by craftier people.

@MB:

I imagine they were probably just unintelligent.  Also, pills in general do
tend to be stupefying, and weed can be insight-producing and awakening but
I've found it often just causes laziness and delusions of grandeur.  Pot
ideas end up usually being pretty dumb.  It's a good medicine for lots of
conditions, though.

Anyway, what I'm discussing here is psychedelics in particular, which have
a strangely bad rap.  I think they can contribute to the learning
experiences of intelligent people much like going to a museum, listening to
a symphony, watching a classic film or play, reading a book, going to a
lecture, seeing a science demonstration, &c.  But they are demonized and
people don't have enough anti-authoritarian nature to question this
demonization, I suppose.  Nobody seems to think for themselves
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From gadersd at gmail.com  Tue Mar 29 00:58:55 2022
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Hermes Trismegistus)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 20:58:55 -0400
Subject: [ExI] video which changed my perspective
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRcR=nqgo4p_80eeznMwwPFpi_mHWfnvVafdrwkSuCkPQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009601d84202$4b749910$e25dcb30$@rainier66.com>
 <CAKrqSyFfAQiPHWykGezaz=grJsD6QfKtBJykbyNQV6YY-_5BVw@mail.gmail.com>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Mar 29 00:59:32 2022
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 19:59:32 -0500
Subject: [ExI] sex
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZJaBoRaF+kt8hMbGNWCQM-jm6sacANoka8LMXhV=DOaQ@mail.gmail.com>

Probably some of you are thinking that I was bragging about my sex life - a
little bit, maybe.

I have always tested in the low range of testosterone and am now below the
charts (good for my prostate cancer) - not so good for sex and but then I
seem to function somewhat without much of it.  Put that together with being
80, and you might wonder why my sex life wasn't over years ago.  I dunno.
Pretty healthy.  Keep at it!  Older men lose it if they don't keep at it.
And it won't come back. Fact.

I am an open person.    bill w

So I hope that this is great news for you who hope to keep all your
functions in older age.  If I can do it with my limitations, you could do
better.  You can't take your sex life for granted and there are things you
actively need to do
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From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Mar 29 02:10:48 2022
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 19:10:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] video which changed my perspective
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyGLzZvzAKknzAFP5YiuYfcOmc-XBN3Q9NhAWjsFQnJT5w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009601d84202$4b749910$e25dcb30$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNQUzqLmPaZLDuguryG660w27-g99cch5f9HgE0uXAtevQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 5:43 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Like I also said, it makes you think more expansively.  You can think
> multiple things at once, think faster, in more intuitive and strange ways.
>

I don't need psychedelics to do that, and I doubt most people need them to
do that.

You can comprehend entire ideas that would take hours to even begin to
> think about sober.
>

>From what I have observed of other people under the influence, you gain the
illusion of being able to do so, without actually being able to do so.

The illusion can be doggedly persistent - the part of your brain that
believes whether or not you know a thing insists that the knowledge is
there, coming up with all manner of justifications as to why the knowledge
can't be used right now in the particular way you happen to be trying to
use it at this instant, or that the inability is unimportant and can be
ignored - but it remains an illusion.

By analogy, someone under the influence might think, and declare, that they
suddenly know kung fu.  They mean "know" as in "grok", not as in "are a
master of", but they do not quite understand the difference.  Someone else
asks them to demonstrate on a training dummy.  The person makes a weak and
sloppy punch.  Subconsciously they know that was not nearly what they meant
to do, so they make a second punch - which is better, but still not master
grade.  They shrug, thinking the point proven, and turn their attention to
other matters - but their audience has seen no understanding demonstrated.
The next day, when the effect has passed from their system, they might have
a dim memory of having thought they understood, but there is rarely enough
remaining to grab onto and analyze, let alone to achieve or re-achieve any
sort of understanding beyond what they had before they went under the
influence.

Why otherwise intelligent people reject just this one incredibly useful
> tool is, again, a testament to how effective propaganda is
>

You say propaganda, I say observed evidence.  In my case this includes
personally observed evidence, though I grant that most people don't have
that.
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From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Mar 29 02:17:39 2022
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 19:17:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] video which changed my perspective
In-Reply-To: <D12042FE-B42E-4288-B645-ECF9BBE2524E@hxcore.ol>
References: <009601d84202$4b749910$e25dcb30$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNSKO8-VV8VtUVocqkiOsXBJkE3TU6_kwfJAUD0v5R5MVA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 6:00 PM Hermes Trismegistus via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I mentioned that I *was* a lucid dreamer. I stopped because I couldn?t
> handle what I saw and experienced when I lucid dreamed. The inner depths of
> the mind can be absolutely terrifying.
>

Huh.  I've apparently always had a diminished fear response relative to
most people, so I'm not sure if you could use lucid dreaming to find ways
to overcome your fear.

I encourage those who can handle it to master it. It can enrich your life
> beyond what you can imagine at this moment.
>

Agreed.
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Mar 29 02:50:11 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 19:50:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] but i really DO know kung fu... it's an illusion of course,
 but still...
Message-ID: <003901d84317$b6344fa0$229ceee0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
?

 

>?The illusion can be doggedly persistent - the part of your brain that believes whether or not you know a thing insists that the knowledge is there, coming up with all manner of justifications as to why the knowledge can't be used right now in the particular way you happen to be trying to use it at this instant, or that the inability is unimportant and can be ignored - but it remains an illusion?

 

I think so too Adrian.  That time I was the driver for four stoners at the Led Zeppelin concert, those guys were making the dumbest replies and thinking they were the funniest comments ever.  For instance, after the riot started and I realized were trapped inside that stadium, I quickly went thru the stages of grief, made it to acceptance.  I said ?This is it.  I?m going to die.  Right here, tonight.  Oh the shame, the sheer ignominy.?  One of the stoners replied in slo-mo, like a 45 on 33 (apologies young people among us) with: Reelaaaaax Gertruuuuude.   You?re not going to diiiiiiieeeee??  They thought that was the funniest joke they ever heard.  I didn?t get it.

 

>From my point of view, I thought I was witnessing people getting killed.  Turns out no one perished but I couldn?t tell that at the time.

 

>?By analogy, someone under the influence might think, and declare, that they suddenly know kung fu?

 

But we older cats really do, Adrian:

 

https://youtu.be/bmfudW7rbG0

 

Aside for 70s history fans: Carl Douglas made this video specifically as an early example of music video in 1974, predating Michael Jackson?s Thriller by nearly a decade.  I experienced brain damage without chemicals: to this day I know every word of Kung Fu Fighting, and even remember the dance.  Perfectly useful brain cells are occupied by that silliness.  Actual information was never able to dislodge it from those memory locations.  We had fun.

 

Even before that was this:  

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kung_Fu_(1972_TV_series)

 

If one had the right mindset, it was actually a good show.

 

Aside: I attempted to watch an episode of Kung Fu recently and discovered a problem that applies to every film made before Star Wars: the pace is waaaay too slow, way the hell too slow.  The internet has trained us to take in information much faster.  So? we now can scarcely stay awake in action movies made before Star Wars, which set a new standard and established the frenetic pace in modern film.

 

Adrian I agree with your point on illusion and thanks for a pleasant reminder on Kung Fu.

 

spike

 

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From msd001 at gmail.com  Tue Mar 29 03:17:01 2022
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 23:17:01 -0400
Subject: [ExI] video which changed my perspective
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyHVR7R6OVtJucJtOuVwn_XLx84fYc4_SsW1odXOdnT-Jw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009601d84202$4b749910$e25dcb30$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <CAOJFdb+gVZa1Jnh=vXvrbXSmT1fCO6WWvQnACRGSymqUPcK4kA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 1:16 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> .
> I think it is a TRAVESTY that intelligent people have been scared away
> from psychedelics.  You guys being so against them is insane to me.
>

Thank you for saying this.

Brains process chemicals.  You can try all you want to "make do" (make
due?) with endogenous chemicals; using breathing and meditation to get a
glimmer of opening windows and doors... but psychedelics have the
additional effectiveness to 'spring clean' with the full breeze and sounds
of outside blowing freshness and novelty through the whole house.  I
understand that fear of losing psychedelic virginity, but you must admit
that you have no idea what opportunity you are waiving in much the same way
that a nun might claim no interest or need for sex.

Taking a psychedelic is like visiting the most unbelievable museum, using
> your brain in ways you did not think possible.  They are some of the most
> learning-oriented experiences I have ever had.  They do not remind me of
> drugs like alcohol or opiates or speed.  They remind me of museums, school,
> symphonies, great works of art and literature.  That is the category they
> belong in.
>

Set and Setting - i suspect you [Will] have a mind naturally drawn to
museums and learning,  so expanded consciousness highlights this nature.
 Not all people tend toward enlightenment.   I won't elaborate because
anyone capable of understanding already knows and those who are/do not will
be offended.

That you seem to categorize them along something like alcohol is, to me,
> merely a testament to the absolute degree of success of the brainwashing
> campaigns by our government to convince people (including smart people)
> that psychedelics are bad drugs that have bad effects.
>

Tetrachromats are just making shit up so they can feel superior to 'normal'
trichromats.  Those normals pity the colorblind, so of course an additional
dimension of color leaves trichromats feeling FOMO and inadequate.
Psychedelics give a similar increase in palette and vibrancy for thinking.

Really, they are tools that can bring out power and intelligence you never
> knew you had.  There's a reason so many successful humans (including
> scientists, btw) have used psychedelics.  Crick himself was on LSD when he
> was able to visualize the double-helix structure when mulling Franklin's
> x-ray crystallography images.  That expansive, lateral, visual,
> multi-thread thinking enabled by psychedelics led to the discovery of the
> structure of DNA itself.
>

No doubt it was a moment to experience a gestalt of many things at once
that took weeks/months to unravel afterwards.  If Sagan was exploring while
high, he was exploiting/explaining that insight once he came down enough to
serialize what he had experienced.

I recieved some good advice on the topic of discussing "drugs":  speak only
to those with ears to listen.   If we need to convince you to try mind
expansions,  then we shouldn't and you shouldn't.  For those willing
psychonauts, we must provide ample support - both for harm reduction and
for community
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Tue Mar 29 04:33:37 2022
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 00:33:37 -0400
Subject: [ExI] video which changed my perspective
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQUzqLmPaZLDuguryG660w27-g99cch5f9HgE0uXAtevQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009601d84202$4b749910$e25dcb30$@rainier66.com>
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@Adrian: I'm not really sure you have a foot to stand on here.  The science
is clear, the anecdotes are clear, everything is clear--psychedelics are
massively useful tools for lots of things.  For helping in therapy with
trauma, end-of-life fear for cancer patients, depression, anxiety, etc.
For helping productivity.  For gaining insight on scientific/engineering
problems.  You can say all you want "well but maybe it's an illusion!!!!"
but to me you're the one sitting in a grey, drab room, yelling through the
door that the room I'm on in is probably grey and drab too, and it's all
just an illusion.  Meanwhile I am sitting in a multicolored room with
frankincense in a ceiling-mounted censer, silken floor pillows, and persian
rugs.  A string quartet plays softly in the corner, while a beautiful woman
wearing jewed-adorned linens feeds me honeydew and Iberian ham by hand.  In
the room are various scientists, academics, philosophers, businesspeople,
and bohemians, who have all independently verified the room is indeed real,
and the scientists have even taken it upon themselves to write numerous
papers proving the existence of the room beyond a shadow of a doubt.  They,
too, are confused why so many people who claim to appreciate science and
learning are still sitting in the fucking grey room and shouting that
everyone in the nice room is crazy.

Yes, you DO need psychedelics to do what they do.  You are not going to
reach that point by yourself, period.  Why is it so crazy to think we might
only plausibly be able to reach certain brain states using drugs?  That is
fully in line with all known physics and biology.  You can say you don't
care about having these experiences, but it is a guarantee that you will
not have these experiences without trying the drugs.  That's it.

No offense, but what you have observed is a sliver of the truth and is
wrong.  The effects and benefits of psychedelics are not an illusion, and
science agrees heartily.

"You say propaganda, I say observed evidence.  In my case this includes
personally observed evidence, though I grant that most people don't have
that.":  I think by "includes" you mean "solely comprises" because the
science disagrees with you.

I do dream.  I've been perfecting lucid dreaming since I started doing it
at around 5 years old.  I can generally do whatever I want in a dream, fly,
make objects appear, teleport, etc.

On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 10:12 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 5:43 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Like I also said, it makes you think more expansively.  You can think
>> multiple things at once, think faster, in more intuitive and strange ways.
>>
>
> I don't need psychedelics to do that, and I doubt most people need them to
> do that.
>
> You can comprehend entire ideas that would take hours to even begin to
>> think about sober.
>>
>
> From what I have observed of other people under the influence, you gain
> the illusion of being able to do so, without actually being able to do so.
>
> The illusion can be doggedly persistent - the part of your brain that
> believes whether or not you know a thing insists that the knowledge is
> there, coming up with all manner of justifications as to why the knowledge
> can't be used right now in the particular way you happen to be trying to
> use it at this instant, or that the inability is unimportant and can be
> ignored - but it remains an illusion.
>
> By analogy, someone under the influence might think, and declare, that
> they suddenly know kung fu.  They mean "know" as in "grok", not as in "are
> a master of", but they do not quite understand the difference.  Someone
> else asks them to demonstrate on a training dummy.  The person makes a weak
> and sloppy punch.  Subconsciously they know that was not nearly what they
> meant to do, so they make a second punch - which is better, but still not
> master grade.  They shrug, thinking the point proven, and turn their
> attention to other matters - but their audience has seen no understanding
> demonstrated.  The next day, when the effect has passed from their system,
> they might have a dim memory of having thought they understood, but there
> is rarely enough remaining to grab onto and analyze, let alone to achieve
> or re-achieve any sort of understanding beyond what they had before they
> went under the influence.
>
> Why otherwise intelligent people reject just this one incredibly useful
>> tool is, again, a testament to how effective propaganda is
>>
>
> You say propaganda, I say observed evidence.  In my case this includes
> personally observed evidence, though I grant that most people don't have
> that.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Mar 29 05:03:14 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 22:03:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] botecs for submersible tankers
Message-ID: <003301d8432a$4c867fc0$e5937f40$@rainier66.com>

 

I still have a lotta lotta work to do, but I can share some estimates for submersible tankers.

 

What I am getting is that if we don?t get in too much of a hurry, ten knots or (more realistically) about 9, we can burn fuel at about a nautical mile per gallon of Diesel for a vessel that carries about 1.5 million gallons of liquid fuel.

 

Before you cringe at my use of English units, consider this: the data I have for drag on submersibles is all in English.  Also: a nautical mile is a unit that makes perfect sense.  It is an arc minute of great circle.  So if we can assume sailing point to point on the shortest possible path, you just take the difference in latitude and the difference in longitude (both in arc minutes) sum the squares and take the square root, gets you very close to the number of arc minutes path length.  My hypothetical 1.5 million gallon tanker sub burns about a gallon per nautical mile if we keep our gas pedal foot under control.

 

It takes a while: going from West Sahara to Paraiba in South America takes about eleven days, going to Florida takes a bit over two weeks, Spain in just a coupla days.

 

Those numbers sound like they are within reason.  So? transporting refined fuel in submersible tankers would not be a show-stopper.  If Western Sahara does not have a deep sea port, that isn?t a show stopper either because the tanker I calculated doesn?t draw a lotta water.  Fifteen meters depth might be enough, which is compatible with Florida?s continental shelf.

 

OK assuming we don?t nuke ourselves in the next few weeks and oil prices return to some semblance of normal.  The tanker would carry about 7 million bucks worth of refined fuel.  So the cost of the leisurely 9 knot trip is not excessive from the point of view of that much capital being transported for two weeks.  I initially calculated using drag number on 10 knots, but if I use 9 instead, my hypothetical sub comes pretty close to a gallon per nautical mile fuel consumption, which makes BOTECs very easy even without the envelope.

 

Anyone getting numbers anywhere close those?

 

spike

 

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From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Mar 29 05:39:32 2022
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 22:39:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] video which changed my perspective
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyEN+7+D8=YQRw7mqsOx+YHtG58KGCQRoV4-NbO=fXdT7A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009601d84202$4b749910$e25dcb30$@rainier66.com>
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On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 9:35 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Yes, you DO need psychedelics to do what they do.  You are not going to
> reach that point by yourself, period.
>

To delude myself?  That is quite possible without psychedelics.  I've seen
far larger delusions with no such assistance.

I've also found that objective reality has a way of overriding
self-delusions.  (See, for instance, Russia's belief that their military is
far stronger than it is proving itself on the field.  I'm pretty sure that
most of them are not on psychedelics.)  Which is why I try to make sure my
perceptions are of objective reality.


> No offense, but what you have observed is a sliver of the truth and is
> wrong.
>

Offense taken.  You contradict yourself, too: either what I have observed
is truth (even if partial) or it is wrong (and thus, by definition, not
truth).
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Mar 29 13:44:23 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 06:44:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] video which changed my perspective
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyEN+7+D8=YQRw7mqsOx+YHtG58KGCQRoV4-NbO=fXdT7A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009601d84202$4b749910$e25dcb30$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <003901d84373$1a15dc90$4e4195b0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] video which changed my perspective

 

>?  The science is clear, the anecdotes are clear, everything is clear--psychedelics are massively useful tools for lots of things.  For helping in therapy with trauma, end-of-life fear?

 

 

 

It occurred to me we might be asking the wrong question here.  I listened to the commentary and had an idea.  I am good at introspection (it is my favorite brand of spection)  so I asked myself why.  I hear the description of the payoff: colorful rooms with incense, Persian rugs, naked nymph feeding me honeydew, silken floor pillows and so forth, and ask myself if I care about any of that.  Answer: noooooo.  OK partial retraction: the naked nymph part sounds cool, but if my bride caught me doing it she would kick my ass until it is between my shoulders.

 

But it caused my focus to shift on the part about sitting is a gray drab room.  I don?t.  My room is normal and I do sit, but I have a lotta fun in here.  I don?t have end of life fear (I might at some point, but I don?t now.)  I don?t have trauma, anxiety, I am not depressed as far as I can tell.

 

Well then, I get it.  These medications work for some people.  I am not one of them.  I am one of the lucky ones: I don?t need to take the risk.  I like things the way they are.  I like being me.  I am good at being me.  My favorite cartoon guy is Tigger from Winnie the Pooh.  Being me is what I do best.  Acid is for Eeyore.  Reality is for Tigger.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Mar 29 14:31:13 2022
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 15:31:13 +0100
Subject: [ExI] video which changed my perspective
In-Reply-To: <003901d84373$1a15dc90$4e4195b0$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <CAL_armgC+GpNgdSO8dMvK_Gef0w5S5AZ_TQquJgv94bA0C1h0Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 at 14:48, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
<snip>
>
> Well then, I get it.  These medications work for some people.  I am not one of them.  I am one of the lucky ones: I don?t need to take the risk.  I like things the way they are.  I like being me.  I am good at being me.  My favorite cartoon guy is Tigger from Winnie the Pooh.  Being me is what I do best.  Acid is for Eeyore.  Reality is for Tigger.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


This discussion reminds me strongly of the religious conversion experience.
Something happens in the brain where people have an overwhelming
transcendental experience that shatters previous beliefs and
transforms them. They feel that 'God' or something outside themselves
changed them. They often become ardent supporters, trying to convert
others to their new way of life.
The experience cannot be denied, as it happens to far too many people.
And throughout history, people have tried different drugs and drinks
to get that experience.

What it all means I'll leave to others to discuss.


BillK


From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Mar 29 15:03:46 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 08:03:46 -0700
Subject: [ExI] video which changed my perspective
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgC+GpNgdSO8dMvK_Gef0w5S5AZ_TQquJgv94bA0C1h0Q@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <007301d8437e$31a1d7a0$94e586e0$@rainier66.com>


...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] video which changed my perspective

On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 at 14:48, spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
<snip>
>
> Well then, I get it.  These medications work for some people.  I am not one of them.  I am one of the lucky ones: I don?t need to take the risk.  I like things the way they are.  I like being me.  I am good at being me.  My favorite cartoon guy is Tigger from Winnie the Pooh.  Being me is what I do best.  Acid is for Eeyore.  Reality is for Tigger.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


>...This discussion reminds me strongly of the religious conversion experience.
Something happens in the brain where people have an overwhelming transcendental experience that shatters previous beliefs and transforms them. ... What it all means I'll leave to others to discuss.

BillK

_______________________________________________

BillK,

I know this doesn't go to your point, but your post gave me a hearty laugh as I recalled something.  Do allow me a running start.

In WW2, an ordinary enlisted man demonstrated remarkable talent fixing airplanes and was chosen as an enlisted pilot, at which time he demonstrated remarkable talent flying them.  Long story short... he ended his career as a Brigadier General, a flying ace, a respected leader in the US Air Force.  He sounded exactly like my own grandfather, which is no surprise because he was my grandfather's half second cousin once removed.  The two were born and raised within a few miles of each other.  That man's name was General Chuck Yeager.  After the war and the record setting (Yeager became the first pilot to break the sound barrier) he became a living legend among military pilots.  They began to emulate his speech patterns, which posed a new problem because Yeager was from the hollers of West Virginia, where they have their own way of talking.  To this day, one occasionally hears an airline pilot on the intercom using West Virginia-isms.

Perhaps the most successful evangelist in modern times would be Billy Graham.  Well, most of us here have heard Billy Graham.  As with pilots adopting Yeager-isms, many evangelists have adopted Graham-isms.  Example: Reverend Lovejoy from the Simpsons.  When he is at home, he speaks with a Chicago brogue.  At the pulpit, he is all Billy Graham.

It occurred to me that those selling pharmaceutical salvation, chemical conversion experiences, might have similar success should they adopt the notions of Dr. Timothy Leary.  Perhaps the most famous Leary-ism: tune in, turn on, drop out.  I myself adopted two thirds of that Leary-ism and modified it for my scouts.  When it is time to fall in at the end of the meeting, I tell them: tune in, turn on, pipe down and listen up.

spike



From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu  Wed Mar 30 01:13:29 2022
From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera)
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 21:13:29 -0400
Subject: [ExI] gas prices
Message-ID: <718EDFAB-7504-45A7-8C3E-1C533A43C7F1@alumni.virginia.edu>

?
Your ideas in this area, Spike, remind me of this image which was circulating around Facebook:



It generated lots of debate. Bottom line stated well here: https://climatefeedback.org/claimreview/connecting-a-generator-to-the-wheel-of-an-electric-vehicle-wont-recharge-its-battery/

Pic below of a fossil fuel-powered generator. 110v plugs at maybe 12 amps take forever to charge my Tesla battery relatively speaking: around 3 miles gained for every hour of charging vs about 220 mi/hr at a Supercharger. A 220v diesel generator at 30 amps would give me about 18 mi/hr I think. 




-Henry

> On Mar 21, 2022, at 11:07 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> ?
>  
>  
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat
> ?
> >?I think there might be a market for either design.
>  
> Rafal
>  
>  
> Hi Rafal,
>  
> It now looks like towing a generator (or anything else) with a Tesla is a no-go.
>  
> https://twitter.com/i/status/1505679545965314054
>  
> Apparently I was about the seven trillionth person to think of hauling a generator.  People who have commented online say it does not make a cross country trip practical in one of Elon?s creations.
>  
> 
>  
> It doesn?t take a lotta calculation, but I recognize that in general one of these small generators will hold about three quarters of a gallon of gasoline, and it takes about an hour and a quarter to run that fuel out under the current load a discharged Tesla would pull.  The amount of energy that would provide in that 75 minutes would carry the Tesla driver about? 30 miles, 40 if she drives 55.
>  
> For fun, I did some calcs on building a trailer to haul lithium batteries.  That was kinda discouraging: not only does it weigh a lot, but the cost of the batteries would be up the kazoo.  Lithium batteries degrade with age as well as charge cycles, so? if you don?t go on cross country trips often, the battery trailer is a no-go anyway, never mind the voided warranty.
>  
> Well? Telsa owners can always rent a dinosaur burner for the occasional long trip I suppose.  I am back to looking at a more modest rig like the Nissan leaf, an older kinda junky one that won?t cost much.  Their resale price drops dramatically after they are 6 or 7 years old, because the range and performance start to degrade noticeably.  But if one is hauling a generator, that wouldn?t matter as much.
>  
> On the other hand, this whole idea might just be stupid.
>  
> spike
> 
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Mar 30 01:41:25 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 18:41:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] gas prices
In-Reply-To: <718EDFAB-7504-45A7-8C3E-1C533A43C7F1@alumni.virginia.edu>
References: <718EDFAB-7504-45A7-8C3E-1C533A43C7F1@alumni.virginia.edu>
Message-ID: <007301d843d7$45337720$cf9a6560$@rainier66.com>

 

 

> On Behalf Of Henry Rivera via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] gas prices

 

?

Your ideas in this area, Spike, remind me of this image which was circulating around Facebook:

 



 

 

Hi Henry, OK that is obviously not going to charge the battery.

 

?

 

>?Pic below of a fossil fuel-powered generator. 110v plugs at maybe 12 amps take forever to charge my Tesla battery relatively speaking: around 3 miles gained for every hour of charging vs about 220 mi/hr at a Supercharger. A 220v diesel generator at 30 amps would give me about 18 mi/hr I think. 

 

 



 

-Henry

 

 

When I ran the numbers on this, I was getting similar results.  If someone drove around town with one of these running full blast, the battery would still discharge but at a slightly lower rate perhaps.  If one ran on the freeway with this rig running, the difference in discharge rate would scarcely be noticeable.  It would run down nearly as quickly with or without the generator back there.

 

People don?t really need to rig up something like this.  Get someone who knows how to do the calculations beforehand, make sure you know what you will get if you go to the effort to build it.

 

There was a former colleague who was a car hobbyist back in the 90s.  He built an all-electric using a bunch of lead acid golf cart deep cycle batteries.  He started with an old quarter ton pickup with a used-up engine, replaced it with an electric motor which he interfaced to a standard transmission (itself quite a trick (but he did it.))  He had a 5 MW generator back there which he would run during the day in the parking lot.

 

In those days, the number of employees had dropped dramatically, so he parked it way out in the back corner of the lot where the racket wouldn?t bother anyone.  He drove it down from Santa Cruz with the generator off, started the generator when he got to work, ten hours later, drove it home with the generator off.  It was experimental.  His findings: starting with a full charge in the morning, he wouldn?t use up all that much charge coming down here the 50 miles (it is a lot of downhill) but the generator couldn?t recharge the batteries enough to get back to a full charge.  He estimated it did about a quarter of a charge in about 9 hours.

 

With that, he had enough charge to climb back up to Santa Cruz and plug in.  The batteries would then have about 12 to 13 hours with his high current charger which would charge it back up (mostly.)  He commented it wasn?t as good a performer as he had hoped.  The rig was way overweight (well imagine that) and the overall fuel economy was no better than, well worse than, the gasoline motor it replaced.  Take away: lead acid batteries are not practical for that application, which is why we never saw a successful series hybrid before lithium batteries became affordable.  Note that the nickel hydride was also too heavy for a series hybrid.  From what I am calculating, even lithium batteries are not likely to give us a successful series hybrid car.

 

All is not lost.  The parallel hybrids are good cars, better in my opinion than the all-electrics in cost/performance ratio.  I am going against the grain and making the claim that the notion of coal to liquid fuel driven by solar power is practical, if? we get a suitable (big) piece of ground near the equator, very dry air, useless as hell for anything else, with access to the sea.  I can find only one place like that on the planet: West Sahara.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Mar 30 14:44:35 2022
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 09:44:35 -0500
Subject: [ExI] the expanse
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYtCwHWdvr_yhU32qmtK_49PxYCyJHgnz8KRFMfiOdcXw@mail.gmail.com>

I will send all nine books, hardbacks, to whomever pays the shipping, which
will be cheap at book rates.  bill w
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From zoielsoy at gmail.com  Wed Mar 30 17:42:34 2022
From: zoielsoy at gmail.com (Angel Z. Lopez)
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 13:42:34 -0400
Subject: [ExI] gas prices
In-Reply-To: <007301d843d7$45337720$cf9a6560$@rainier66.com>
References: <718EDFAB-7504-45A7-8C3E-1C533A43C7F1@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <007301d843d7$45337720$cf9a6560$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALHxhTQG4VzV25rZzjKNSAJO72LFju2h1stcZ6hGgaAbYoSCoA@mail.gmail.com>

Tesla has the capability to put in a second alternator that recharges
batteries continuously

On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 9:42 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> > *On Behalf Of *Henry Rivera via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] gas prices
>
>
>
> ?
>
> Your ideas in this area, Spike, remind me of this image which was
> circulating around Facebook:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Henry, OK that is obviously not going to charge the battery.
>
>
>
> ?
>
>
>
> >?Pic below of a fossil fuel-powered generator. 110v plugs at maybe 12
> amps take forever to charge my Tesla battery relatively speaking: around 3
> miles gained for every hour of charging vs about 220 mi/hr at a
> Supercharger. A 220v diesel generator at 30 amps would give me about 18
> mi/hr I think.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -Henry
>
>
>
>
>
> When I ran the numbers on this, I was getting similar results.  If someone
> drove around town with one of these running full blast, the battery would
> still discharge but at a slightly lower rate perhaps.  If one ran on the
> freeway with this rig running, the difference in discharge rate would
> scarcely be noticeable.  It would run down nearly as quickly with or
> without the generator back there.
>
>
>
> People don?t really need to rig up something like this.  Get someone who
> knows how to do the calculations beforehand, make sure you know what you
> will get if you go to the effort to build it.
>
>
>
> There was a former colleague who was a car hobbyist back in the 90s.  He
> built an all-electric using a bunch of lead acid golf cart deep cycle
> batteries.  He started with an old quarter ton pickup with a used-up
> engine, replaced it with an electric motor which he interfaced to a
> standard transmission (itself quite a trick (but he did it.))  He had a 5
> MW generator back there which he would run during the day in the parking
> lot.
>
>
>
> In those days, the number of employees had dropped dramatically, so he
> parked it way out in the back corner of the lot where the racket wouldn?t
> bother anyone.  He drove it down from Santa Cruz with the generator off,
> started the generator when he got to work, ten hours later, drove it home
> with the generator off.  It was experimental.  His findings: starting with
> a full charge in the morning, he wouldn?t use up all that much charge
> coming down here the 50 miles (it is a lot of downhill) but the generator
> couldn?t recharge the batteries enough to get back to a full charge.  He
> estimated it did about a quarter of a charge in about 9 hours.
>
>
>
> With that, he had enough charge to climb back up to Santa Cruz and plug
> in.  The batteries would then have about 12 to 13 hours with his high
> current charger which would charge it back up (mostly.)  He commented it
> wasn?t as good a performer as he had hoped.  The rig was way overweight
> (well imagine that) and the overall fuel economy was no better than, well
> worse than, the gasoline motor it replaced.  Take away: lead acid batteries
> are not practical for that application, which is why we never saw a
> successful series hybrid before lithium batteries became affordable.  Note
> that the nickel hydride was also too heavy for a series hybrid.  From what
> I am calculating, even lithium batteries are not likely to give us a
> successful series hybrid car.
>
>
>
> All is not lost.  The parallel hybrids are good cars, better in my opinion
> than the all-electrics in cost/performance ratio.  I am going against the
> grain and making the claim that the notion of coal to liquid fuel driven by
> solar power is practical, if? we get a suitable (big) piece of ground near
> the equator, very dry air, useless as hell for anything else, with access
> to the sea.  I can find only one place like that on the planet: West Sahara.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Mar 30 19:38:26 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 12:38:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] gas prices
In-Reply-To: <CALHxhTQG4VzV25rZzjKNSAJO72LFju2h1stcZ6hGgaAbYoSCoA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <718EDFAB-7504-45A7-8C3E-1C533A43C7F1@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <007301d843d7$45337720$cf9a6560$@rainier66.com>
 <CALHxhTQG4VzV25rZzjKNSAJO72LFju2h1stcZ6hGgaAbYoSCoA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00a301d8446d$ba1286d0$2e379470$@rainier66.com>

 

 

? 
Subject: Re: [ExI] gas prices

 

>?Tesla has the capability to put in a second alternator that recharges batteries continuously?

 

 

Indeed sir?  Before long, some yahoo will suggest putting in a third alternator and a fourth, then, hey cool!  Plug in your fully charged Tesla car, run the house off the car until it is nearly drained, go drive around town until the batteries are fully charged, come home, repeat.  It is a new take on Gibb?s free energy, only it?s spike?s free energy.

 

Or not.  It really doesn?t work that way.  Too bad for us though.  We are stuck with Gibb?s free energy, which is a bad name: it isn?t what it sounds like.

 

spike

 

 

 

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From odellhuff2 at gmail.com  Thu Mar 31 04:44:23 2022
From: odellhuff2 at gmail.com (Odell)
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 21:44:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] sex
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZJaBoRaF+kt8hMbGNWCQM-jm6sacANoka8LMXhV=DOaQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZJaBoRaF+kt8hMbGNWCQM-jm6sacANoka8LMXhV=DOaQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACsUujUu1CCtx7JEvsBQ9kFRNdV8D480hDMsNv3AJ-hapHP9Zg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 6:05 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Probably some of you are thinking that I was bragging about my sex life -
> a little bit, maybe.
>

I recommend we not start that contest, we've identified one of only two
topics in which I'm the expert with this crew. ;)
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From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Mar 31 05:53:03 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 22:53:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] sex
In-Reply-To: <CACsUujUu1CCtx7JEvsBQ9kFRNdV8D480hDMsNv3AJ-hapHP9Zg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZJaBoRaF+kt8hMbGNWCQM-jm6sacANoka8LMXhV=DOaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACsUujUu1CCtx7JEvsBQ9kFRNdV8D480hDMsNv3AJ-hapHP9Zg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00e601d844c3$96f15720$c4d40560$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of Odell via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] sex

 

On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 6:05 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

Probably some of you are thinking that I was bragging about my sex life - a little bit, maybe.

 

>?I recommend we not start that contest, we've identified one of only two topics in which I'm the expert with this crew. ;)

 

 

What?s the other one Odell?

 

spike

 

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From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Mar 31 23:24:23 2022
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2022 00:24:23 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Thursday Fun Day in the UK
Message-ID: <CAL_armgJeUOC+P-uv-0LuXbB44r=qbrMrKmVdevAuS=O-8RC_g@mail.gmail.com>

It's been a funny old day here in the UK.
On Friday a big electricity price increase will apply and customers
were told to supply meter readings on Thursday to make sure correct
charges were applied to their accounts.

Guess what happened?????

The websites of all the power companies promptly fell over as the whole of the
UK tried to connect and submit their meter readings.  What a surprise!  :)
Who would have thought that might happen!
Isn't technology wonderful!

<https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/18130141/ofgem-issues-bill-advice-sites-crash/>

BillK

From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Mar 31 23:34:14 2022
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 16:34:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Thursday Fun Day in the UK
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgJeUOC+P-uv-0LuXbB44r=qbrMrKmVdevAuS=O-8RC_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgJeUOC+P-uv-0LuXbB44r=qbrMrKmVdevAuS=O-8RC_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000601d84557$d581bb30$80853190$@rainier66.com>


...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat
Subject: [ExI] Thursday Fun Day in the UK

>...It's been a funny old day here in the UK.
On Friday a big electricity price increase will apply and customers were
told to supply meter readings on Thursday to make sure correct charges were
applied to their accounts.

>...Guess what happened?????

>...The websites of all the power companies promptly fell over as the whole
of the UK tried to connect and submit their meter readings.  What a
surprise!  :) Who would have thought that might happen!
Isn't technology wonderful!

<https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/18130141/ofgem-issues-bill-advice-sites-cras
h/>

BillK
_______________________________________________



Hey, WE invented that!  We Yanks did it first, me lad.

A few years ago the USA attempted to overhaul our medical insurance system.
The government set up a website.  Roll-out day, it crashed.  Too many
attempted to log on.  Unforeseeable I suppose.  Black swan event having all
those people try to log on the very first day.

spike