[ExI] us

Tue Nov 8 20:46:22 UTC 2022

Of what I can understand from your post, which is not a whole lot, you are
correct from your point of view.

But from the point of view of the average person, God is quite a simple
thing:  an old man in a beard who lives in Heaven.  Most don't think past
that, certainly not to the depth your post displays.  By extreme contrast,
the many thousands of studies stemming from evolutionary theory are Greek
to the average person, and therefore are invincibly complex.

bill w

On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 1:56 PM Gadersd via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> People are not obeying Occam’s razor by believing in creationism. The
> rigorous mathematical formulation of Occam’s razor, the true Occam’s razor,
> has nothing to do with how easy an idea is to understand. The basis is
> rather on algorithmic complexity, roughly speaking how many symbols of code
> or symbols of a mathematical language is required to fully express the
> idea. To fully define the idea that God created the universe requires
> defining the brain of God and its intelligence, desires, prejudices, etc.
> that leads to the creation of the universe in such detail that the whole
> process could be simulated on a computer. The known laws of physics are so
> astronomically less complex (the equations fit on a postcard) than the
> brain/consciousness of God that by Occam’s razor belief in God in absurd.
>
> People generally misunderstand the principle behind Occam’s razor. Think
> more along the lines of how would I explain this idea to a computer rather
> than how do I explain it to a person. I’ve programmed evolution simulations
> and the complexity is actually quite low (can be done in a day or so under
> a 100 lines of code). I would balk at the idea of trying to program the
> brain of the Abrahamic God in a computer. It would presumably be at least
> as complex as a fully developed human brain.
>
> On Nov 8, 2022, at 2:24 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> That does not surprise me.  Most Americans believe in God and do not
> understand science even if it is explained to them in depth. That leaves
> them little choice.  'God did it' is nice and simple and Darwinism is
> highly complex.  Ask a Darwinian to explain his views and you get very
> complicated answers.  People are obeying, ironically, Ockhams' Razor.  bill
> w
>
> On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 12:05 PM Gadersd via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> https://news.gallup.com/poll/261680/americans-believe-creationism.aspx
>> According to the poll 40% of Americans believe in creationism. Ideologies
>> tend to stick, especially powerful ones such as religion. That an idea as
>> absurd as creationism has that much support reveals a lot regarding human
>> susceptibility.
>>
>> On Nov 8, 2022, at 12:51 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> My strong sense of rationality eventually detected the cognitive
>> dissonance, but for most it never happens and the ideology sticks for life.
>> Gadrsd
>>
>> I certainly would like to see data on that.  Opinions persisting for
>> life, I would reckon, would only describe those whose score on the Openness
>> element of the Big Five was in the very closed section of the curve.  No
>> way an Open person will believe childhood opinions without change, often
>> great change.  bill w
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 11:37 AM Gadersd via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian household. The indoctrination
>>> techniques definitely worked on me and I am generally a very rational
>>> person. When I was young I couldn’t; explain why evolution and other
>>> scientific theories were wrong, I just knew they were because the source of
>>> truth (Bible) implied those theories were wrong. I didn’t even notice the
>>> contradictions in that worldview until I was in my teens even though I was
>>> mathematically minded. It is exceptionally difficult for children raised in
>>> a particular ideology to see the contradictions within that ideology. My
>>> strong sense of rationality eventually detected the cognitive dissonance,
>>> but for most it never happens and the ideology sticks for life.
>>>
>>> I suspect that it is much easier for teenagers and adults to shirk off
>>> new ideologies and brainwashing since they already have a worldview in
>>> place to default to, which I think explains why the brainwashing didn’t
>>> work on the GIs. That’s why you have to get them when they’re young, really
>>> young.
>>>
>>> On Nov 8, 2022, at 9:50 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> We attained our neurological maturity around age 25.  Before that, just
>>> how dumb were we?  Were we very impressionable?  Able to be led around by
>>> older and wise others?  Or were we just a little bit of an independent
>>> thinker all along?
>>>
>>> Here's a phrase from today's paper?  "..she was part of a larger
>>> movement of teachers indoctrinating students with liberal ideology..."
>>> Repub Ryan Walter said "There is no place for a teacher with a liberal
>>> political agenda in the classroom"  Conservative OK?
>>>
>>> (the teacher in Oklahoma has provided students with a link to a library
>>> that let them read banned books)
>>>
>>> Now I don't know how much you know about brainwashing and
>>> indoctrination.  I don't know much.  But I do  know that extensive studies
>>> were done after GIs returned from North Korean prison camps where they had
>>> been subjected to brainwashing, some of them for years.
>>>
>>> Results:  they found no GI who was brainwashed by any definition.  The
>>> techniques simply did not work.  GIs pretended to go along with the program.
>>>
>>> Note that the GIs were not neurologically mature.
>>>
>>> Just how susceptible are our children to indoctrination?  Me?  I am a
>>> born contrarian and skeptic.  But I don't know how I would have been
>>> affected by such a program, though I suspect that nobody and nothing could
>>> have just wiped out my opinions and replaced them at any age.
>>>
>>> So I think this whole thing is sort of a straw man - few if any are
>>> attempting indoctrination, and few are fully affected, and most of those
>>> kids will develop different opinions before they leave school.
>>>
>>> Remember 'Don't trust anyone over 30?'  Teachers are like parents - they
>>> get ignored and what the peer group thinks is far more important.
>>>
>>> We received 'sermons' on all kinds of topics from parents and teachers
>>> and pastors throughout our youth.  How much stuck?  Of that that stuck, how
>>> much of it was thoughtless. believed just because we were told?   bill w
>>>
>>>
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