[ExI] Symbol Grounding

Mon Apr 24 06:15:26 UTC 2023

Brent,
Is to it crazy to say that a table is 99.9999 empty space? But it is
actually a scientific fact. If I say that the solidity of the table is an
illusion and it turns out that really (I didn't make up the number it is a
real fact) 99.9999 of a table is empty space who is crazy, who insists that
table is solid or who says it is an illusion due to the repulsion of the
electrons in your hand and the repulsion of the electrons in the table that
gives you this "sense" of solidness?
In this exact sense, in fact, it is a very strong analogy that the
sensation of red is an illusion. It seems real but it is just a bunch of
neurons firing in your brain. It is code. It is made of nothing than
patterns and interaction, EXACTLY like the solidity of the table is just an
EM interaction between electrons.
Do you know why your friends agree with your naive understanding of
redness? Because they don't understand science (ask them if they think a
table is solid or the fact they actually never touch the ground when they
walk) or that there is a non zero probability to go across a wall or
finding yourself tomorrow morning in the galaxy of Andromeda. Science and
reality is weird my friend, I didn't make up this universe, I just study
its laws.

Giovanni

On Sun, Apr 23, 2023 at 6:41 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, Apr 23, 2023 at 8:27 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 23, 2023 at 4:43 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Quoting Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>:
>>>
>>> > This is so frustrating.  I'm asking a simple, elementary school level
>>> > question.
>>>
>>> So you think that the Hard Problem of Consciousness reframed as a your
>>> so-called "Colorness Problem" is an elementary school level question?
>>> Then maybe you should quit bugging us about it and seek the advice of
>>> elementary school children.
>>>
>>
>> I am working with those people that do get it.  Now, more than 40 of
>> them, including leaders in the field like Steven Lehar
>> <https://canonizer.com/topic/81-Mind-Experts/4-Steven-Lehar>, are
>> supporting the camp that says so.  Even Dennett's Predictive Bayesian
>> coding Theory
>> <https://canonizer.com/topic/88-Theories-of-Consciousness/21-Dennett-s-PBC-Theory>
>> is a supporting sub camp, demonstrating the progress we are making.
>> Gordon, would you be willing to support RQT
>> <https://canonizer.com/topic/88-Theories-of-Consciousness/6-Representational-Qualia>?
>> The elementary school kids are telling us, plug things into the brain, till
>> you find what it is that has a redness quality.  So, we are collecting the
>> signature, and once we get enough, experimentalists will finally get the
>> message and then start doing this, and eventually be able to demonstrate to
>> everyone what it is that has a  [image: red_border.png] property.  To my
>> understanding, that is how science works.
>>
>>
>> The reason I am bugging you functionalists is because I desperately want
>> to understand how everyone thinks about consciousness, especially the
>> leading popular consensus functionalism camps. Giovani seems to be saying
>> that in this functionalist view, there is no such thing as color qualities,
>> but to me, saying there is no color in the world is just insane.  You seem
>> to be at least saying something better than that, but as far as I can see,
>> your answers are just more interpretations of interpretations, no place is
>> there any grounding.   You did get close to a grounded answer when I asked
>> how the word 'red' can be associated with [image: green_border.png].
>> Your reply was  "at some point during the chatbot's training the English
>> word red was associated with *the picture in question*."   But "*the
>> picture in question*" could be referring to at least 4 different
>> things.  It could be associated with the LEDs emitting the 500 nm light.
>> It could be the 500 nm light, which "the picture" is emitting, or it could
>> be associated with your knowledge of   [image: green_border.png]. in
>> which case it would have the same quality as your knowledge of that, or it
>> could be associated with someone that was engineered to be your inverted
>> knowledge (has a red / green signal inverter between its retina and optic
>> nerve), in which case, it would be like your knowledge of [image:
>> red_border.png].  So, if that is indeed your answer, which one of these
>> 4 things are you referring to?  Is it something else?
>>
>>
>> You guys accuse me of being non scientific.  But all I want to know is
>> how would a functionalist demonstrate, or falsify functionalist claims
>> about color qualities, precisely because I want to be scientific.  Do you
>> believe you have explained how functionalism predictions about color
>> qualities could be falsified or demonstrated, within functionalist
>> doctrines?   If so, I haven't seen it yet.
>>
>
> I've suggested several times that you read Chalmers Fading/Dancing qualia
> thought experiment. Have you done this? What is your interpretation of it?
>
> https://consc.net/papers/qualia.html
>
> Jason
>
>
>> So please help, as all I see is you guys saying, over and over again,
>> that you don't need to provide an unambiguous way to demonstrate what it is
>> that has this quality: [image: red_border.png], or even worse
>> functionalism is predicting that color doesn't exist.  As if saying things
>> like that, over and over again, makes them true?
>>
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