[ExI] communication

[Gadersd]

> The most bizarre thing about them is that they don't appear to have anything "objective" about them at all. But I know /I'm/ experiencing them. Your mileage may vary,

Yet we know that there is something objective that gives rise to them. Using the term “qualia” or “experience” so far has yielded nothing amenable to scientific or mathematical investigation and therefore no progress has been made. Without a rigorous definition I don’t think any progress can be made beyond frantic handwaving. Even worse, some of us are using different implicit definitions of consciousness. We might as well add “How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?” to the discussion and debate over the definitions of “angel” and “pin."

> On Apr 25, 2023, at 11:27 AM, Darin Sunley via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> I would quibble that "qualia" is vague.
> 
> Qualia are these vivid intense experiences of color and sound and pain and pleasure and sensation I am having every second of every day, that for some reason are completely impossible to linguistically communicate anything about to anyone who doesn't also have them already, and that don't seem to share anything in common, even on an ontological level, with the physical properties of the external stimuli that seem to create them.
> 
> The most bizarre thing about them is that they don't appear to have anything "objective" about them at all. But I know /I'm/ experiencing them. Your mileage may vary,
> 
> On Tue, Apr 25, 2023 at 9:21 AM Gadersd via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>> wrote:
>> In classical conditionings, when a bell rings, the dog salivates.  Is this communication?  Or symbolic grounding or some such?
> 
> I am growing increasingly weary of all these hazy word games. One can define language and communication in many different nonequivalent ways. The reality is in the physics, yet some of us are completely ignoring physics and instead engaging in philosophical semantic masturbation.
> 
> I wish we would purge vague terms such as “understanding”, “qualia”, and so on in favor of objective language.
> 
>> On Apr 25, 2023, at 10:50 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>> wrote:
>> 
>> I just want simple answers, not a  bunch of new terms.  
>> 
>> In classical conditionings, when a bell rings, the dog salivates.  Is this communication?  Or symbolic grounding or some such?
>> 
>> Psychology is the worst at inventing new terms.  Some new sciences are doing it too, making relating to old terms difficult.
>> 
>> IMO, if a stimulus provokes a response, communication has occurred.  Sender; medium; reception and response.  Information has occurred, transferred, and caused actions.  Why can't a bell ringing be called a language?  If instead you used saying the word 'bell' as a CS, would that qualify?
>> 
>> Definitions are very difficult:  you have to say what something is and what it isn't, and how it is similar to but different from other terms.  If we stuck to operational definitions it would greatly simplify things.
>> 
>> bill w  
>> 
>> 
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