[ExI] Substrate Dependance
brent.allsop at gmail.com
Thu Apr 27 11:46:53 UTC 2023
This is all fascinating stuff. But it doesn't have anything to do with the
fact that if subjective redness changes to subjective greenness, it is a
different quality, so subjective experiences, which are composed of those,
are dependent on the nature of those subjective qualities. If they change,
they are different.
On Tue, Apr 25, 2023 at 10:17 PM Giovanni Santostasi via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> Hi Stuart,
> It is a very interesting idea that water would be needed for
> consciousness. I have a friend of mine, a brilliant math master student
> that is interested in astrobiology that created an entire exoworld based on
> the properties of water. In her imaginary world, the moon is close to a
> Jupiter-like planet and the interplay of gravity and internal heat made the
> entire planet alive like a single giant organism. What you said makes me
> think of that world.
> Anyway here is a paper about neural net computing in water:
> *Inspired by the brain, researchers have long been seeking to develop
> ‘ionics’ in an aqueous solution. While ions in water move slower than
> electrons in semiconductors, scientists think the diversity of ionic
> species with different physical and chemical properties could be harnessed
> for richer and more diverse information processing.*
> On Tue, Apr 25, 2023 at 9:05 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> Quoting Giovanni Santostasi <gsantostasi at gmail.com>:
>> > Hi Stuart,
>> > I would be interested in knowing your substrate-dependency arguments
>> > because I'm sure they are more sophisticated and interesting than the
>> > Brent has presented. It seems at least you say that we need also a
>> > system and interactions to take advantage of the substratum to actually
>> > achieve consciousness.
>> Indeed. I have been studying synergy and emergent properties for over
>> a decade and complexity is trait that all systems that exhibit
>> emergence posses. If I were to claim a substrate-dependance for life
>> and consciousness, then I would say it was water. According to
>> Leonardo da Vinci “Water is the driving force of all nature.”
>> > I may agree that this is how our brain works because
>> > it had to find through the process of evolution biological viable
>> > to achieve certain goals. This is also an interesting question for
>> > astrobiology for example. There are reasons why carbon is the base of
>> Yes, carbon has an atomic valence of 4 which allows it to make 4
>> versatile covalent bonds. It is like the utility atom that allows for
>> the existence of so much structure in the form of biopolymers. But the
>> hydrocarbon components of life are only half of the story, well 25% of
>> the story actually. The other 75% of life is water. And water is, by
>> itself, one of the most complex substances on earth. It quite possibly
>> the strangest liquid known to man as evidenced by the following
>> special issue of Chemical Reviews with the title Water the Most
>> Anomalous Liquid.
>> Much of the anomaly of water is that it is as much a network of
>> molecules as it is a liquid. Each water molecule forms polar hydrogen
>> bonds with up to 4 other molecules of water or even hydrocarbon making
>> it what gives shape to every biomolecule like DNA, RNA, proteins,
>> lipid bilayers, etc. Because, in biochemistry, structure equates to
>> function, then by giving structure to biopolymers, water contributes
>> to their function.
>> Dissolved molecules or ions distort the geometry of water for quite a
>> distance around themselves. Even on their own, water molecules can
>> form bizarre structures like rings, chains, and cages and that is in
>> its liquid form. There are 14 different phases of ice as a solid. Its
>> thermodynamics are wacky and its information content is massive as
>> attested to by the uniqueness of snowflakes.
>> How much of free will and consciousness is bound up in the Brownian
>> motion of lipid vesicles in the synaptic cleft? How much phenomenal
>> experience is tied to jiggling of the gelatin?
>> > My problem with any substrate-dependent argument used to claim a
>> > substratum is necessary (even if not sufficient) for consciousness is
>> > that the particular chosen substratum by nature serves some function. If
>> > fatty tissues were used to insulate a nerve then it was an ingenious
>> > solution by natural selection but there is nothing so unique about fatty
>> > tissues that cannot be reproduced by an equivalent substance like
>> > for example.
>> The problem with water is that it serves too many functions. It is the
>> medium of life and might be part of the message, as well.
>> > I can build better insulation of a wire without using fat. This
>> > can be applied to absolutely any component of biology I can think of. I
>> > don't see why a biological substratum would be better than a
>> > one with an equivalent function. The question is how equivalent but it
>> > cannot be to the point it is 1 to 1. For sure there are things that are
>> > necessary for the biological substratum or even nonoptimal.
>> I am not sure how you would build an analogue of water. Like the
>> scientific journal I posted above says, it is a unique substance.
>> > About abstract neural nets, one could argue that they cannot give rise
>> > consciousness because they miss the actuation part. It is not just the
>> > information processing that matters but how this information processing
>> > expresses itself, let's say for example in creating certain chemical
>> > activity in the brain that can sustain certain patterns of activity that
>> > the brain then self-recognizes as awareness.
>> I have no doubt that artificial neural networks are intelligent. The
>> question is, if they are conscious for all definitions of
>> consciousness. I don't believe that water is necessary for
>> consciousness, but as a hypothesis, I have yet to find a way to rule
>> it out.
>> > But we know how to simulate complex chemical reactions and again in the
>> > if these happen and are essential to consciousness is because they do
>> > something, they have some kind of function and desired effect, and their
>> > equivalent can be found and simulated in how the neural network works.
>> > Maybe this would make us change the architecture of the network but not
>> > make us abandon the idea that function is all that matters.
>> > But please tell me where I'm wrong.
>> The problem is that if water is a truly necessary part of the
>> functional substrate of life and consciousness, then we are still
>> quite a ways from being able to compute consciousness. For example,
>> the Summit supercomputer at Oak Ridge National Laboratory, Tennessee
>> can, with the help of AI, simultaneously simulate about as many water
>> molecules as there are in a single neuron, i.e. about 25 billion.
>> That being said, if classical computers and Turing machines cannot be
>> made conscious, then quantum computers probably could. So it is still
>> likely just a matter of time.
>> Stuart LaForge
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