[ExI] Zombies

Sun Apr 30 23:02:08 UTC 2023

The Start Trek video is actually pretty good. The critical issue is how we
approach other minds. It is actually more a test of our own consciousness
than the one in the machine. How we approach this event tells us a lot
about who we are, individually and as a community and civilization. Gordon
said Blake Lemoine seems mentally ill to propose to be respectful, full of
awe, and openness towards these new minds (no matter how limited they may
be) and I think instead this approach is the only humane, healthy, wise one
and the opposite attitude is what I find disgusting in religious-like
responses to this issue, that humans are special and unique because they
are made in the image of a non-existent God.
Gordon would say Lemoine is religious, I think he is more deeply spiritual
than religious as usually understood, somebody adhering to some irrational
dogma (mostly derived from some obsolete worldview).

On Sun, Apr 30, 2023 at 3:45 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> This is reminiscent of our recent debate:
>
> https://youtu.be/vjuQRCG_sUw
>
> Jason
>
> On Sun, Apr 30, 2023, 6:37 PM Jason Resch <jasonresch at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 30, 2023, 5:11 PM Gordon Swobe <gordon.swobe at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The mere fact that an LLM can be programmed/conditioned by its
>>> developers to say it is or is not conscious should be evidence that it is
>>> not.
>>>
>>
>> Should we take the ability of humans or animals to act or be trained as
>> evidence they are not conscious?
>>
>>
>>> Nobody wants to face the fact that the founders of OpenAI themselves
>>> insist that the only proper test of consciousness in an LLM would require
>>> that it be trained on material devoid of references to first person
>>> experience.
>>>
>>
>> Their qualifications are as computer scientists, not philosophers of
>> mind. Neither linguists nor AI researchers are experts in the field of
>> consciousness. What does David Chalmers say about them? Have you looked?
>>
>> The test open AI proposes, it passed, would be strong evidence of human
>> level reflexive consciousness. But failure to pass such a test is not
>> evidence against consciousness.
>>
>> Also: Have you taken a few moments to consider how impossible the test
>> they propose would be to implement in practice? Can they not think of an
>> easier test? What is their definition of consciousness?
>>
>>
>> It is only because of that material in training corpus that LLMs can
>>> write so convincingly in the first person that they appear as conscious
>>> individuals and not merely as very capable calculators and language
>>> processors.
>>>
>>
>> How do you define consciousness?
>>
>> Jason
>>
>>
>>
>>> -gts
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 30, 2023 at 7:30 AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 30, 2023, 5:23 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 29/04/2023 23:35, Gordon Swobe wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Apr 29, 2023 at 3:31 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> So you believe them when they claim to not be conscious, but don't
>>>>>> believe them when they don't.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And you expect us to take your reports of what they say as evidence
>>>>>> for whether they are conscious or not.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can you see a problem with that?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> As I explained in another message, (to you, I think), I first entered
>>>>> these discussions a couple of months ago prepared to argue that people were
>>>>> being deceived by the LLMs; that ChatGPT is lying when it says it has
>>>>> consciousness and genuine emotions and so on.
>>>>>
>>>>> I had no personal experience with LLMs but a friend had literally
>>>>> fallen in love with one, which I found more than a little alarming.
>>>>>
>>>>> As it turns out, GPT4-4 is saying everything I have always believed
>>>>> would be true of such applications as LLMs. I’ve been saying it for decades.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Good grief, man, are you incapable of just answering a question?
>>>>>
>>>>> I suppose I'd better take your reply as a "No", you don't see a
>>>>> problem with your double-standard approach to this issue.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please feel free to correct me, and change your (implied) answer to
>>>>> "Yes".
>>>>>
>>>>> And when you say "prepared to argue...", I think you mean "determined
>>>>> to argue...". But predetermined prejudicial opinions are no basis for a
>>>>> rational argument, they are a good basis for a food-fight, though, which is
>>>>> what we have here. One which you started, and seem determined to finish.
>>>>>
>>>>> You may not have noticed (I suspect not), but most of us here (myself
>>>>> included) have no dogmatic insistence on whether or not these AI systems
>>>>> can or can't have consciousness, or understand what they are saying. We are
>>>>> willing to listen to, and be guided by, the available evidence, and change
>>>>> our minds accordingly. It's an attitude that underlies something called the
>>>>> scientific method. Give it a try, you might be surprised by how effective
>>>>> it is. But it comes with a warning: It may take you out of your comfort
>>>>> zone, which can be, well, uncomfortable. I suspect this is why it's not
>>>>> more popular, despite how very effective it is.
>>>>>
>>>>> Personally, I think a little discomfort is worth it for the better
>>>>> results, when trying to figure out how the world works, but that's just me.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Well said Ben. Your advice brought to mind this quote:
>>>>
>>>> "If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts, but if
>>>> he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties."
>>>> -- Francis Bacon
>>>>
>>>> Jason
>>>>
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>>>>
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