From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Thu Jun  1 11:41:08 2023
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2023 07:41:08 -0400
Subject: [ExI] bots replacing humans...
In-Reply-To: <SEZPR03MB6467FF6CE124849B7A2E7A1CF548A@SEZPR03MB6467.apcprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <SEZPR03MB6467FF6CE124849B7A2E7A1CF548A@SEZPR03MB6467.apcprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <22154e16c1bf3893022b3a6e6dc9ef14.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>

Maybe the suits shouldn't jump so fast?  Thorough testing of such things
is necessary, no? ;)

https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7ezkm/eating-disorder-helpline-fires-staff-transitions-to-chatbot-after-unionization

followed by

https://www.vice.com/en/article/qjvk97/eating-disorder-helpline-disables-chatbot-for-harmful-responses-after-firing-human-staff

Regards,
MB

From gadersd at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 13:49:13 2023
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2023 09:49:13 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Meta - Can a language be considered as symbiotic "living"
 entity on a more abstract definition of cyberphysical reality
In-Reply-To: <SEZPR03MB6467FF6CE124849B7A2E7A1CF548A@SEZPR03MB6467.apcprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <SEZPR03MB6467FF6CE124849B7A2E7A1CF548A@SEZPR03MB6467.apcprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <3ACB40CA-54DD-434B-B0EC-BD31A8635423@gmail.com>

> A cultural/memetic endosymbiont such as what I am proposing a moderately prescriptive language to be could be seen as an independent entity that people smarter than me would be able to clearly define the ontological boundaries of it's existance in the framework outlined in 2)
If I understand you correctly, you want to extract language/culture and the reality they represent from the totality of reality so that language can be viewed as an independent entity in its own right?

This is similar to what many try to achieve with machine learning. Some pattern within reality, perhaps the 3d geometry of an animal, may be encoded in some data, say an image. With machine learning one can separate the information corresponding to the location of the animal?s joints from all the other information in the image such as the lighting conditions.

This can be taken much farther. If one had data corresponding to many different human languages and cultures that formed independently then one could at least in theory train a model that compresses the data into independent components. Each of the compressed parts would be uncorrelated with one another. Then the information that corresponds to language could be separated from all the other information of which it is independent. The details of language depend on biological and environment characteristics so some of this information would be included in the language entity.

The technique can be used for just about anything. Reality is structured because aspects of it have correlation. By separating out the correlations into independent components one can find the distinct ?entities? that make up reality.

> On May 31, 2023, at 6:07 PM, Jeremy Markman via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> I apologize, I tried to ask this a few days ago but the message got moderated because of too much Jargon.
> 
> During human evolution, human's ancestors had some inheritable phenotype that allowed them to embed and utilize symbolic language in a manner that extended their potential complexity, adaptability, and ethological effectiveness.
> 
> There is much literature that at least have soft claims of language and human evolution being a sort of positive feed back process. As proto humans that had more latent ability to utilize language were selected for, language itself became more complex, diverse, and effective. Language became more effective in the sense that the n years of building up the corpus of what makes up a language, initially "embedding" itself in the semi blank slate of human infants minds in a more and more effective manner.
> 
> Typically in our day and age, there are pretty well standardized values of how many words a child would know on average at a given point in their development. Each word doesn't exist in isolation but is similar to a scientific paper where there are "references" to a vast array of other words, or general linguistic information.
> 
> The point is is that I don't really know how to describe this concept I am curious getting your feedback on without resorting to jargon but I am going to at least try.
> 
> There is the concept of an extended phenotype where a gene encodes for a phenotype in another organism
> Reality is generally broken down into objective, subjective, abstract internal reality - and objective, subjective, abstract external reality. The boundaries of these definitions break down upon closer inspection but are generally stable if viewed as black boxes with non-gestalt, fuzzy, and recursive boundaries
> A persons emergent existence is best modelled as a digital twin across four dimensional space time
> A cultural/memetic endosymbiont such as what I am proposing a moderately prescriptive language to be could be seen as an independent entity that people smarter than me would be able to clearly define the ontological boundaries of it's existance in the framework outlined in 2)
> I think I used too much jargon again, send help
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat <http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat>
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 14:34:43 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2023 07:34:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] India and the periodic table
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>

Nature reports that India has removed evolution and the periodic table
from textbooks.

Keith

From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 14:43:21 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2023 07:43:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] India and the periodic table
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSGALjD-dQYVskaD5o0WVPEp9M_xPEs4Wn7QRiOzbXfUQ@mail.gmail.com>

Worse, the board behind it is - so far - refusing to publicly discuss its
reasons for doing so.  Electromagnetism and certain other topics are
getting the axe too.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-01750-2

On Thu, Jun 1, 2023 at 7:36?AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Nature reports that India has removed evolution and the periodic table
> from textbooks.
>
> Keith
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Jun  1 15:14:55 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2023 08:14:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] bots replacing humans...
In-Reply-To: <22154e16c1bf3893022b3a6e6dc9ef14.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
References: <SEZPR03MB6467FF6CE124849B7A2E7A1CF548A@SEZPR03MB6467.apcprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <22154e16c1bf3893022b3a6e6dc9ef14.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <004601d9949b$d2f36af0$78da40d0$@rainier66.com>


...> On Behalf Of MB via extropy-chat
Subject: [ExI] bots replacing humans...

Maybe the suits shouldn't jump so fast?  Thorough testing of such things is
necessary, no? ;)... Regards,
MB


MB the advice the chatbot dispensed is good advice for some people.  But not
all.  So can we trust humans to do better than the chatbots?  We don't know,
not necessarily  But... if an eating disorder hotline hires humans who give
out bad advice, the organizer of the hotline is legally liable.  If it is
set up with a chatbot and a legal disclaimer stated up front, the hotline
provider is not legally liable.

Same with a suicide prevention hotline.  We can set up software to provide
mechanized generic empathy.  (Now there's three words that fight each other:
mechanized generic empathy.)  But we can still imagine better empathy
provided by life forms theoretically capable of actual emotion.  But with a
suicide prevention hotline, there is liability for what the humans say, not
for what the software would suggest.

spike




From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Jun  1 15:21:50 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2023 08:21:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] India and the periodic table
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004901d9949c$ca0ae160$5e20a420$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
Keith Henson 
Subject: [ExI] India and the periodic table

Nature reports that India has removed evolution and the periodic table from
textbooks.

Keith
_______________________________________________


That explains why India's brightest and best have been struggling to live
and work in the US and Europe.

Keith dumb people are easier to control than smart ones.

spike


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 15:37:34 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2023 10:37:34 -0500
Subject: [ExI] bots replacing humans...
In-Reply-To: <004601d9949b$d2f36af0$78da40d0$@rainier66.com>
References: <SEZPR03MB6467FF6CE124849B7A2E7A1CF548A@SEZPR03MB6467.apcprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <22154e16c1bf3893022b3a6e6dc9ef14.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <004601d9949b$d2f36af0$78da40d0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEa58QL0Z95Xfo76bnCtWwBG+EVS3Fs9C3EO7zm-VsaS2g@mail.gmail.com>

Replace humans with bots and the bots mess up and no one is liable? Sounds
like an idea that managers might like - get rid of people.
Somebody has to be liable if bots cause injury.  The bot people as I
understand it, do not know how to make the bots stop giving wrong answers.
Do we have a Catch 22 here?   bill w

On Thu, Jun 1, 2023 at 10:17?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> ...> On Behalf Of MB via extropy-chat
> Subject: [ExI] bots replacing humans...
>
> Maybe the suits shouldn't jump so fast?  Thorough testing of such things is
> necessary, no? ;)... Regards,
> MB
>
>
> MB the advice the chatbot dispensed is good advice for some people.  But
> not
> all.  So can we trust humans to do better than the chatbots?  We don't
> know,
> not necessarily  But... if an eating disorder hotline hires humans who give
> out bad advice, the organizer of the hotline is legally liable.  If it is
> set up with a chatbot and a legal disclaimer stated up front, the hotline
> provider is not legally liable.
>
> Same with a suicide prevention hotline.  We can set up software to provide
> mechanized generic empathy.  (Now there's three words that fight each
> other:
> mechanized generic empathy.)  But we can still imagine better empathy
> provided by life forms theoretically capable of actual emotion.  But with a
> suicide prevention hotline, there is liability for what the humans say, not
> for what the software would suggest.
>
> spike
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 15:46:18 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2023 08:46:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Thoughts on AI engineers
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5g=6FzpcBFF+VJNA7bfbuAGckVoUNDdrinTuPBVp7ZFw@mail.gmail.com>

(From Kris Holland)

I was chatting with Keith yesterday, and he was musing around that AI
has functionally added millions of engineers to the economy.  I said
software engineers, maybe.  It's nowhere near other fields, at least
being able to "do" the stuff reliably.  But that will come.  And think
about that.  With enough resources to start, a very small group of
individuals can build up to a 'company' with millions of engineers
internally.  That means that such a company could design, build and
test almost ANYTHING in virtuo, and only going to hardware for the
hardest bits and real world validation.

We're at a point where there are groups of people in the world who are
crafting the next mega-corporations.  We don't know who they are, we
don't know their intent, nor do we understand their moral compass.
That is just fucking terrifying, based on the aggregate actions of
humanity.  The only small hope is that geeks tend to be of high moral
standard unless coopted by nasties.

While these groups creating the next mega corporations is nothing new,
the difference is that these groups may go from nothing to google
scale in 2 years, and be bigger than all of the trillion dollar
companies in 4, and be functionally unstoppable.

Since now you can offload all of your competent talent to
jurisdictions with no regulation.

(end quote)

Best wishes,

Keith

From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Jun  1 15:57:54 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2023 08:57:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] bots replacing humans...
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEa58QL0Z95Xfo76bnCtWwBG+EVS3Fs9C3EO7zm-VsaS2g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <SEZPR03MB6467FF6CE124849B7A2E7A1CF548A@SEZPR03MB6467.apcprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <22154e16c1bf3893022b3a6e6dc9ef14.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <004601d9949b$d2f36af0$78da40d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa58QL0Z95Xfo76bnCtWwBG+EVS3Fs9C3EO7zm-VsaS2g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008e01d994a1$d4424a60$7cc6df20$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat

Subject: Re: [ExI] bots replacing humans...

 

>?Replace humans with bots and the bots mess up and no one is liable? Sounds like an idea that managers might like - get rid of people.

Somebody has to be liable if bots cause injury.  The bot people as I understand it, do not know how to make the bots stop giving wrong answers.  Do we have a Catch 22 here?   bill w

 

 

Billw, I was in a movie theatre a bunch of years ago.  A scene showed a public bus swerving to avoid hitting the local shepherd?s flock and crashing into a tree.  The passengers staggered off and wandered away with various injuries.  The movie audience burst out laughing at the unintentionally funny scene: Americans have grown accustomed to someone being liable for anything bad that happens.  In that country, no one is.  If there is an accident, too bad for you, best wishes on a full recovery, etc.

 

This is a big problem for national parks.  They are not liable if tourists try to pet the bison, which are wild animals and are not separated from the boardwalks, filled with city proles accustomed to having everything made safe.  Everything isn?t safe.  In Yellowstone, they are reintroducing wolves.  If some Rufus McGoofus goes hiking in the back country and is devoured by wolves, the national park system is not liable for that.  Shock.  But city people and especially Americans, grow up accustomed to everything being made safe and someone being responsible for everything.  So they don?t exercise a lick of sense or take any reasonable precautions.

 

An eating disorder hotline can be set up with a recording that says: The staff unionized and went on strike, haven?t seen them since, but you may log on to talk to a chatbot, for which no one is liable, use at your own risk, sign up for an account at PhatGPT.  If that works for you, we also have a suicide prevention hotline, likewise staffed by AI.  Sign up for a free account at ShotGPT.  Use both at your own risk, good luck, there?s no one left working here, for we couldn?t afford the liability.

 

With the proper disclaimers, I see no reason why a suicide prevention bot and a diet bot would present liability.  You get free generic diet advice and free mechanized generic empathy, worth every cent you pay.

 

spike  

 

 

 

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From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 16:17:10 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2023 17:17:10 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Meta - Can a language be considered as symbiotic "living"
 entity on a more abstract definition of cyberphysical reality
In-Reply-To: <3ACB40CA-54DD-434B-B0EC-BD31A8635423@gmail.com>
References: <SEZPR03MB6467FF6CE124849B7A2E7A1CF548A@SEZPR03MB6467.apcprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <3ACB40CA-54DD-434B-B0EC-BD31A8635423@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armipdAy9NDYC2WPdwQje5+Mt2m7f63AcA3-ETdx593WsNA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 1 Jun 2023 at 14:52, Gadersd via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> A cultural/memetic endosymbiont such as what I am proposing a moderately prescriptive language to be could be seen as an independent entity that people smarter than me would be able to clearly define the ontological boundaries of it's existance in the framework outlined in 2)
>
> If I understand you correctly, you want to extract language/culture and the reality they represent from the totality of reality so that language can be viewed as an independent entity in its own right?
>
> This is similar to what many try to achieve with machine learning. Some pattern within reality, perhaps the 3d geometry of an animal, may be encoded in some data, say an image. With machine learning one can separate the information corresponding to the location of the animal?s joints from all the other information in the image such as the lighting conditions.
>
> This can be taken much farther. If one had data corresponding to many different human languages and cultures that formed independently then one could at least in theory train a model that compresses the data into independent components. Each of the compressed parts would be uncorrelated with one another. Then the information that corresponds to language could be separated from all the other information of which it is independent. The details of language depend on biological and environment characteristics so some of this information would be included in the language entity.
>
> The technique can be used for just about anything. Reality is structured because aspects of it have correlation. By separating out the correlations into independent components one can find the distinct ?entities? that make up reality.
> _______________________________________________



Not sure if it helps, but an AI seems to find a different opinion.


Question -
Can a language be considered as symbiotic "living" entity on a more
abstract definition of cyberphysical reality?

Reply -
Based on the provided context, it is possible to consider a language
as a symbiotic "living" entity in a more abstract definition of
cyberphysical reality. The Leiden Theory of the origin of language
suggests that the nature of human thought can be understood as a
process of symbiosis between a hominid host and its environment.
<https://www.researchgate.net/publication/316659539_Language_as_organism_A_brief_introduction_to_the_Leiden_theory_of_language_evolution>

This implies that language can be seen as an emergent property of the
interactions between humans and their environment, similar to how
symbiotic relationships exist in biological systems.

In the context of cyberphysical reality, language can be considered a
symbiotic entity that evolves and adapts based on its interactions
with humans and the environment. This idea is supported by the concept
of ontology development, which aims to represent the complex
relationships between various entities, including symbiotic
interactions.
<https://bmcmedinformdecismak.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12911-020-01273-0>
By representing language as an entity that interacts with other
entities in a symbiotic manner, we can better understand its role in
shaping human thought and communication.

However, there are some limitations and challenges in applying the
concept of symbiosis to language in a cyberphysical context:

The definition of symbiosis can be vague, as it refers to the degree
and duration of physical or social contact between two organisms, with
at least one organism capable of directly producing a bodily benefit
or harm in the other. This may not directly apply to language, as it
is an abstract concept that does not necessarily involve direct
physical contact.

The concept of symbiosis is primarily used in biology and ecology, and
its applicability to language and cyberphysical reality may not be
universally accepted. It may require further exploration and
clarification to establish a more concrete connection between
symbiosis and language.

In conclusion, language can be considered a symbiotic "living" entity
in a more abstract definition of cyberphysical reality, as it evolves
and adapts based on its interactions with humans and the environment.
However, further research and clarification may be needed to establish
a more concrete connection between the concepts of symbiosis and
language in the context of cyberphysical reality.
----------------------

BillK


From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 16:33:11 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2023 09:33:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Thoughts on AI engineers
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB5g=6FzpcBFF+VJNA7bfbuAGckVoUNDdrinTuPBVp7ZFw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5g=6FzpcBFF+VJNA7bfbuAGckVoUNDdrinTuPBVp7ZFw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTebHcjMgRWwiPWpvkMFhjf8xRX5bmrazUwcfMu3Gz1cQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 1, 2023 at 8:48?AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> While these groups creating the next mega corporations is nothing new,
> the difference is that these groups may go from nothing to google
> scale in 2 years, and be bigger than all of the trillion dollar
> companies in 4, and be functionally unstoppable.
>

That's nothing new either.


> Since now you can offload all of your competent talent to
> jurisdictions with no regulation.
>

Those who have tried that have had very little success at growth - almost
as if the jurisdictions with no regulation are, in fact, not fertile ground
for creating truly large businesses.  (Because they aren't.)
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 17:16:11 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2023 12:16:11 -0500
Subject: [ExI] bots replacing humans...
In-Reply-To: <008e01d994a1$d4424a60$7cc6df20$@rainier66.com>
References: <SEZPR03MB6467FF6CE124849B7A2E7A1CF548A@SEZPR03MB6467.apcprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <22154e16c1bf3893022b3a6e6dc9ef14.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <004601d9949b$d2f36af0$78da40d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa58QL0Z95Xfo76bnCtWwBG+EVS3Fs9C3EO7zm-VsaS2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <008e01d994a1$d4424a60$7cc6df20$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbfzn6c6-+VThJbdZ7MnuSQycwh_BX+5FG_mVmcnnaxTQ@mail.gmail.com>

Spike, I am told that bots run municipal water systems.  Who is liable if
they mess up?  Somebody has to be liable.  "Act of God" just doesn't do it
for me.  Some kind of warranty must exist.  And, how do people assess the
dangers of bots if they aren't tech people?    bill w

On Thu, Jun 1, 2023 at 10:59?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] bots replacing humans...
>
>
>
> >?Replace humans with bots and the bots mess up and no one is liable?
> Sounds like an idea that managers might like - get rid of people.
>
> Somebody has to be liable if bots cause injury.  The bot people as I
> understand it, do not know how to make the bots stop giving wrong answers.
> Do we have a Catch 22 here?   bill w
>
>
>
>
>
> Billw, I was in a movie theatre a bunch of years ago.  A scene showed a
> public bus swerving to avoid hitting the local shepherd?s flock and
> crashing into a tree.  The passengers staggered off and wandered away with
> various injuries.  The movie audience burst out laughing at the
> unintentionally funny scene: Americans have grown accustomed to someone
> being liable for anything bad that happens.  In that country, no one is.
> If there is an accident, too bad for you, best wishes on a full recovery,
> etc.
>
>
>
> This is a big problem for national parks.  They are not liable if tourists
> try to pet the bison, which are wild animals and are not separated from the
> boardwalks, filled with city proles accustomed to having everything made
> safe.  Everything isn?t safe.  In Yellowstone, they are reintroducing
> wolves.  If some Rufus McGoofus goes hiking in the back country and is
> devoured by wolves, the national park system is not liable for that.
> Shock.  But city people and especially Americans, grow up accustomed to
> everything being made safe and someone being responsible for everything.
> So they don?t exercise a lick of sense or take any reasonable precautions.
>
>
>
> An eating disorder hotline can be set up with a recording that says: The
> staff unionized and went on strike, haven?t seen them since, but you may
> log on to talk to a chatbot, for which no one is liable, use at your own
> risk, sign up for an account at PhatGPT.  If that works for you, we also
> have a suicide prevention hotline, likewise staffed by AI.  Sign up for a
> free account at ShotGPT.  Use both at your own risk, good luck, there?s no
> one left working here, for we couldn?t afford the liability.
>
>
>
> With the proper disclaimers, I see no reason why a suicide prevention bot
> and a diet bot would present liability.  You get free generic diet advice
> and free mechanized generic empathy, worth every cent you pay.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Jun  1 18:18:42 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2023 11:18:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] bots replacing humans...
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbfzn6c6-+VThJbdZ7MnuSQycwh_BX+5FG_mVmcnnaxTQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <SEZPR03MB6467FF6CE124849B7A2E7A1CF548A@SEZPR03MB6467.apcprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <22154e16c1bf3893022b3a6e6dc9ef14.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <004601d9949b$d2f36af0$78da40d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa58QL0Z95Xfo76bnCtWwBG+EVS3Fs9C3EO7zm-VsaS2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <008e01d994a1$d4424a60$7cc6df20$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbfzn6c6-+VThJbdZ7MnuSQycwh_BX+5FG_mVmcnnaxTQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00d801d994b5$7f33e880$7d9bb980$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] bots replacing humans...

 

>?Spike, I am told that bots run municipal water systems.  Who is liable if they mess up?  Somebody has to be liable?.

 

The municipal water users have no choice.  So there is liability there: the city manager or mayor.

 

>?  And, how do people assess the dangers of bots if they aren't tech people?    bill w

 

We can?t.  The tech people can?t either.  We are sailing uncharted waters here.  ChatGPT can already be used for suicide prevention, for diet consultation, for a makeshift poor man?s psychologist.  OpenAI is not liable for what people do if they use ChatGPT that way.

 

The weight loss hotline had a strike.  Whoever manages that was not motivated to negotiate for reasons I understand: management is liable for what the employees say, but not for software they offers as a substitute.  They needs to be very explicit about the users are not talking to a human, but rather are using software, so all they is offering is mechanized generic empathy or diet advice, not all that different from what you get if you read self-help books.

 

spike 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 18:27:43 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2023 11:27:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] bots replacing humans...
In-Reply-To: <00d801d994b5$7f33e880$7d9bb980$@rainier66.com>
References: <SEZPR03MB6467FF6CE124849B7A2E7A1CF548A@SEZPR03MB6467.apcprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <22154e16c1bf3893022b3a6e6dc9ef14.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <004601d9949b$d2f36af0$78da40d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa58QL0Z95Xfo76bnCtWwBG+EVS3Fs9C3EO7zm-VsaS2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <008e01d994a1$d4424a60$7cc6df20$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbfzn6c6-+VThJbdZ7MnuSQycwh_BX+5FG_mVmcnnaxTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d801d994b5$7f33e880$7d9bb980$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNS_LhTo8JRyvwrbpGZf7GRwMpWd4-riqnCoJKPpYTjq=g@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 1, 2023 at 11:20?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] bots replacing humans...
>
> >?  And, how do people assess the dangers of bots if they aren't tech
> people?    bill w
>
>
>
> We can?t.  The tech people can?t either.  We are sailing uncharted waters
> here.
>

One might hope that municipal water systems are very well charted, as are
their potential failure modes - not specifically from bots, but from any
sort of operator error.  Unless there is some new sort of control system
involved (Spike, you'd know about control systems, right?), it does not
look like bots would be capable of any physical actions that humans are not
capable of.  (Human operators can do things bots can't, but that's not the
concern here.)  So, just pull up the database of ways these control systems
can mess up, and guard against those - even if those systems do have a new
type of operator.


> management is liable for what the employees say, but not for software they
> offers as a substitute
>

Wouldn't the scope of liability go the other way?  If some employee does
bad things, that employee might possibly be sacrificed to appease law
enforcement.  If property of the company does bad things with no human
clearly responsible, liability goes directly to the company - and if the
company can't pay up, potentially to its ownership and/or management
personally (keyphrase: "breach the corporate veil").
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 18:46:05 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2023 11:46:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] bots replacing humans...
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbfzn6c6-+VThJbdZ7MnuSQycwh_BX+5FG_mVmcnnaxTQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <SEZPR03MB6467FF6CE124849B7A2E7A1CF548A@SEZPR03MB6467.apcprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <22154e16c1bf3893022b3a6e6dc9ef14.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <004601d9949b$d2f36af0$78da40d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa58QL0Z95Xfo76bnCtWwBG+EVS3Fs9C3EO7zm-VsaS2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <008e01d994a1$d4424a60$7cc6df20$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbfzn6c6-+VThJbdZ7MnuSQycwh_BX+5FG_mVmcnnaxTQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4dpOrAzKmbMVysd1UAgevHU36S-OEGW7Da0nUs+2HYDA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 1, 2023 at 10:17?AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Spike, I am told that bots run municipal water systems.

That's not exactly the case.  I noted that the controls for water
systems are on the Internet.  There was a case where someone broke
into one and increased the fluoride to the max.  Was not enough to
hurt, but they could have shut off the pumps.

Keith

Who is liable if they mess up?  Somebody has to be liable.  "Act of
God" just doesn't do it for me.  Some kind of warranty must exist.
And, how do people assess the dangers of bots if they aren't tech
people?    bill w
>
> On Thu, Jun 1, 2023 at 10:59?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>>
>> Subject: Re: [ExI] bots replacing humans...
>>
>>
>>
>> >?Replace humans with bots and the bots mess up and no one is liable? Sounds like an idea that managers might like - get rid of people.
>>
>> Somebody has to be liable if bots cause injury.  The bot people as I understand it, do not know how to make the bots stop giving wrong answers.  Do we have a Catch 22 here?   bill w
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Billw, I was in a movie theatre a bunch of years ago.  A scene showed a public bus swerving to avoid hitting the local shepherd?s flock and crashing into a tree.  The passengers staggered off and wandered away with various injuries.  The movie audience burst out laughing at the unintentionally funny scene: Americans have grown accustomed to someone being liable for anything bad that happens.  In that country, no one is.  If there is an accident, too bad for you, best wishes on a full recovery, etc.
>>
>>
>>
>> This is a big problem for national parks.  They are not liable if tourists try to pet the bison, which are wild animals and are not separated from the boardwalks, filled with city proles accustomed to having everything made safe.  Everything isn?t safe.  In Yellowstone, they are reintroducing wolves.  If some Rufus McGoofus goes hiking in the back country and is devoured by wolves, the national park system is not liable for that.  Shock.  But city people and especially Americans, grow up accustomed to everything being made safe and someone being responsible for everything.  So they don?t exercise a lick of sense or take any reasonable precautions.
>>
>>
>>
>> An eating disorder hotline can be set up with a recording that says: The staff unionized and went on strike, haven?t seen them since, but you may log on to talk to a chatbot, for which no one is liable, use at your own risk, sign up for an account at PhatGPT.  If that works for you, we also have a suicide prevention hotline, likewise staffed by AI.  Sign up for a free account at ShotGPT.  Use both at your own risk, good luck, there?s no one left working here, for we couldn?t afford the liability.
>>
>>
>>
>> With the proper disclaimers, I see no reason why a suicide prevention bot and a diet bot would present liability.  You get free generic diet advice and free mechanized generic empathy, worth every cent you pay.
>>
>>
>>
>> spike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Jun  1 19:24:00 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2023 12:24:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] bots replacing humans...
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB4dpOrAzKmbMVysd1UAgevHU36S-OEGW7Da0nUs+2HYDA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <SEZPR03MB6467FF6CE124849B7A2E7A1CF548A@SEZPR03MB6467.apcprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <22154e16c1bf3893022b3a6e6dc9ef14.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <004601d9949b$d2f36af0$78da40d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa58QL0Z95Xfo76bnCtWwBG+EVS3Fs9C3EO7zm-VsaS2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <008e01d994a1$d4424a60$7cc6df20$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbfzn6c6-+VThJbdZ7MnuSQycwh_BX+5FG_mVmcnnaxTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB4dpOrAzKmbMVysd1UAgevHU36S-OEGW7Da0nUs+2HYDA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <010601d994be$9f04a880$dd0df980$@rainier66.com>


...> On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] bots replacing humans...

On Thu, Jun 1, 2023 at 10:17?AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>... Spike, I am told that bots run municipal water systems.

>...That's not exactly the case.  I noted that the controls for water systems are on the Internet.  There was a case where someone broke into one and increased the fluoride to the max.  Was not enough to hurt, but they could have shut off the pumps....Keith

Keith I bet that was MY DENTIST whodunnit, the shifty-eyed bahstid.  He was mysteriously absent from the office that day.


>...Who is liable if they mess up?  Somebody has to be liable...

Whereas we have grown comfortably accustomed to that notion, it isn't clear to me that those of us who use the chatbot service lines and such, the information equivalent of the self-checkout line at Walmart (oh I do love that) will have anyone to sue if things don't work out for us.  When you think about it, the internet in general is one of those buyer beware places: you cannot rely on the information found there.  Likewise with mainstream news.

This all makes sense: liability lawsuits have generally replaced traditional criminal legal system.  As that happened, being an employer became steadily more risky.  For instance, an employer is liable if they fires a worthless employee if that employee is in a protected class.  The employer is even liable if an employee is sexually harassing another employee.  In every case, the civil courts take sides against the corporation.  

Well, OK then, this adds still more incentive to replace the human employees as quickly as possible, and tell the consumer this hotline is strictly self-help.  It might not help at all, and might cause harm, just as the case with reading some self-help books.  Dianetics was a self-help book, of sorts.  

spike



From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Jun  2 03:30:48 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2023 20:30:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] junk food diet
Message-ID: <003a01d99502$a04c04b0$e0e40e10$@rainier66.com>

 

 

 

Something doesn't seem right about this story, but USAToday says it is true.
This guy ate only at McDonalds, claims he lost 58 pounds in 100 days:

 

https://www.today.com/health/man-eating-only-mcdonalds-100-days-final-weight
-loss-rcna87220

 

Well then, OK.  I personally like the tasty repast served up at McDonalds,
but I never claimed the dreadful swill is health food.  I like donuts too,
but likewise, I don't even attempt to fool myself that it is nutritious. 

 

A number of years ago, McDonalds was sued by a teenager who claimed that
McDonalds made her fat.  This was all the fault of McDonalds, so they were
liable donchaknow.  That's when Ronald began offering salad on Happy McMenu,
which of course no one ever actually bought (for one does not go to
McDonalds for salad (nor to a donut shop.))  But Ronald offers it, and
McDonalds is not liable if their viands are so delectable that it renders
customers helpless to resist, resulting in the silly proles devouring too
much and growing into portly young diabetics with clogged arteries.  Well,
imagine that.  It isn't hard to do: these are well-known consequences of
eating too much McD's and scarfing too many donuts.  

 

Casting aside all caution and common sense, I devour the stuff anyway.  Just
in moderate quantities.

 

It has been long known that one can have a poor diet and still lose weight,
if the total calorie count is sufficiently low.

 

Humans are such a fun species, I do hope that AI doesn't cause our brutal
extinction.

 

spike

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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 11:18:48 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2023 04:18:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Multiplying engineers
In-Reply-To: <22154e16c1bf3893022b3a6e6dc9ef14.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
References: <SEZPR03MB6467FF6CE124849B7A2E7A1CF548A@SEZPR03MB6467.apcprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <22154e16c1bf3893022b3a6e6dc9ef14.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5mb_XrzMDgeMtcfGmMdojJtZm0DjL3E+7waEJw+Ed2UA@mail.gmail.com>

The sample I am going on is small, but one engineer I know who also
knows a fair number of other engineers tells me that GPT-4 increases
the productivity of software engineers today by a factor of 3 and
expects it to double again and spread to the far reaches of
engineering on a time scale of a few months.

I have wondered in posts on Power Satellite Economics (or maybe Howard
Bloom's mail list) if China with its 3x number of engineers would
outstrip the US, particularly in space.

If the CCP comes down as hard as they say on AI, and engineers in the
US use AI as a multiplier this may be reversed and the US will surge
ahead.

This should be apparent in a year or two if it is true.

Keith

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 12:55:06 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2023 05:55:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] junk food diet
In-Reply-To: <003a01d99502$a04c04b0$e0e40e10$@rainier66.com>
References: <003a01d99502$a04c04b0$e0e40e10$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6dX+717GvvS8zhw=v8BJEQfAB7_KQdzUm8MHiGM0LpQg@mail.gmail.com>

If you read the story, it's no wonder that he lost weight.  Nothing
particularly wrong with McD food when you eat half of their servings
or are an active teenager.

Early days of college I added up the intake of the four of us who
lived at the Druid Student Center.  On 4500 calories a day, none of us
were gaining weight.  Marching in ROTC and running to class plus
weekend activities burned it off.

Yesterday, for the first time in 8 months, I got a large fries at McD.
$6.01.  Talk about inflation.

Keith

On Thu, Jun 1, 2023 at 8:32?PM spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Something doesn?t seem right about this story, but USAToday says it is true.  This guy ate only at McDonalds, claims he lost 58 pounds in 100 days:
>
>
>
> https://www.today.com/health/man-eating-only-mcdonalds-100-days-final-weight-loss-rcna87220
>
>
>
> Well then, OK.  I personally like the tasty repast served up at McDonalds, but I never claimed the dreadful swill is health food.  I like donuts too, but likewise, I don?t even attempt to fool myself that it is nutritious.
>
>
>
> A number of years ago, McDonalds was sued by a teenager who claimed that McDonalds made her fat.  This was all the fault of McDonalds, so they were liable donchaknow.  That?s when Ronald began offering salad on Happy McMenu, which of course no one ever actually bought (for one does not go to McDonalds for salad (nor to a donut shop.))  But Ronald offers it, and McDonalds is not liable if their viands are so delectable that it renders customers helpless to resist, resulting in the silly proles devouring too much and growing into portly young diabetics with clogged arteries.  Well, imagine that.  It isn?t hard to do: these are well-known consequences of eating too much McD?s and scarfing too many donuts.
>
>
>
> Casting aside all caution and common sense, I devour the stuff anyway.  Just in moderate quantities.
>
>
>
> It has been long known that one can have a poor diet and still lose weight, if the total calorie count is sufficiently low.
>
>
>
> Humans are such a fun species, I do hope that AI doesn?t cause our brutal extinction.
>
>
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 13:01:19 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2023 08:01:19 -0500
Subject: [ExI] junk food diet
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB6dX+717GvvS8zhw=v8BJEQfAB7_KQdzUm8MHiGM0LpQg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003a01d99502$a04c04b0$e0e40e10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB6dX+717GvvS8zhw=v8BJEQfAB7_KQdzUm8MHiGM0LpQg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEb6CaOF5USsN2+gRVy6Ct+-QgztuJ_wNin4o3Z82csWBg@mail.gmail.com>

Back in the old days - when I was a kid - Mcdonalds cooked their fries in
beef fat (James Beard, the famous chef, said that beef kidney fat was the
best).  Chefs said that they could not cook a better fry than McDs.  They
changed in response to public pressure to something else.  I wonder if they
ever changed back?  bill w

On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 7:57?AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> If you read the story, it's no wonder that he lost weight.  Nothing
> particularly wrong with McD food when you eat half of their servings
> or are an active teenager.
>
> Early days of college I added up the intake of the four of us who
> lived at the Druid Student Center.  On 4500 calories a day, none of us
> were gaining weight.  Marching in ROTC and running to class plus
> weekend activities burned it off.
>
> Yesterday, for the first time in 8 months, I got a large fries at McD.
> $6.01.  Talk about inflation.
>
> Keith
>
> On Thu, Jun 1, 2023 at 8:32?PM spike jones via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Something doesn?t seem right about this story, but USAToday says it is
> true.  This guy ate only at McDonalds, claims he lost 58 pounds in 100 days:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> https://www.today.com/health/man-eating-only-mcdonalds-100-days-final-weight-loss-rcna87220
> >
> >
> >
> > Well then, OK.  I personally like the tasty repast served up at
> McDonalds, but I never claimed the dreadful swill is health food.  I like
> donuts too, but likewise, I don?t even attempt to fool myself that it is
> nutritious.
> >
> >
> >
> > A number of years ago, McDonalds was sued by a teenager who claimed that
> McDonalds made her fat.  This was all the fault of McDonalds, so they were
> liable donchaknow.  That?s when Ronald began offering salad on Happy
> McMenu, which of course no one ever actually bought (for one does not go to
> McDonalds for salad (nor to a donut shop.))  But Ronald offers it, and
> McDonalds is not liable if their viands are so delectable that it renders
> customers helpless to resist, resulting in the silly proles devouring too
> much and growing into portly young diabetics with clogged arteries.  Well,
> imagine that.  It isn?t hard to do: these are well-known consequences of
> eating too much McD?s and scarfing too many donuts.
> >
> >
> >
> > Casting aside all caution and common sense, I devour the stuff anyway.
> Just in moderate quantities.
> >
> >
> >
> > It has been long known that one can have a poor diet and still lose
> weight, if the total calorie count is sufficiently low.
> >
> >
> >
> > Humans are such a fun species, I do hope that AI doesn?t cause our
> brutal extinction.
> >
> >
> >
> > spike
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From gadersd at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 14:03:40 2023
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2023 10:03:40 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Multiplying engineers
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB5mb_XrzMDgeMtcfGmMdojJtZm0DjL3E+7waEJw+Ed2UA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <SEZPR03MB6467FF6CE124849B7A2E7A1CF548A@SEZPR03MB6467.apcprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <22154e16c1bf3893022b3a6e6dc9ef14.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAPiwVB5mb_XrzMDgeMtcfGmMdojJtZm0DjL3E+7waEJw+Ed2UA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <957E49F7-32C5-457E-A6CF-3342718D5AA0@gmail.com>

So much of software engineering is dealing with tedious boilerplate code. GPT4 is nearly perfect at automating the tedium. It still isn?t sophisticated enough to handle the more novel aspects of programming, but hopefully it will soon improve to the point where a developer can write the specification for a program and have it generated. The exponential growth of software development will be astounding.

I don?t think there is much inherent limitation in the model architecture as the models have demonstrated that they are capable of human level reasoning but often do not meet this potential unless the prompts are carefully crafted. Perhaps with better training methods the current state of the art models will reach effortless human level design and reasoning soon.

> On Jun 2, 2023, at 7:18 AM, Keith Henson via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> The sample I am going on is small, but one engineer I know who also
> knows a fair number of other engineers tells me that GPT-4 increases
> the productivity of software engineers today by a factor of 3 and
> expects it to double again and spread to the far reaches of
> engineering on a time scale of a few months.
> 
> I have wondered in posts on Power Satellite Economics (or maybe Howard
> Bloom's mail list) if China with its 3x number of engineers would
> outstrip the US, particularly in space.
> 
> If the CCP comes down as hard as they say on AI, and engineers in the
> US use AI as a multiplier this may be reversed and the US will surge
> ahead.
> 
> This should be apparent in a year or two if it is true.
> 
> Keith
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From gadersd at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 14:11:28 2023
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2023 10:11:28 -0400
Subject: [ExI] junk food diet
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEb6CaOF5USsN2+gRVy6Ct+-QgztuJ_wNin4o3Z82csWBg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003a01d99502$a04c04b0$e0e40e10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB6dX+717GvvS8zhw=v8BJEQfAB7_KQdzUm8MHiGM0LpQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEb6CaOF5USsN2+gRVy6Ct+-QgztuJ_wNin4o3Z82csWBg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F460705D-F753-463C-8319-0B2B1AF198BB@gmail.com>

> They changed in response to public pressure to something else.  I wonder if they ever changed back?

They are still using vegetable oil like every other fast food restaurant except perhaps Chick-fil-A which uses peanut oil. Why would they ever change back when vegetable oil is cheaper?

> On Jun 2, 2023, at 9:01 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> Back in the old days - when I was a kid - Mcdonalds cooked their fries in beef fat (James Beard, the famous chef, said that beef kidney fat was the best).  Chefs said that they could not cook a better fry than McDs.  They changed in response to public pressure to something else.  I wonder if they ever changed back?  bill w
> 
> On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 7:57?AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>> wrote:
> If you read the story, it's no wonder that he lost weight.  Nothing
> particularly wrong with McD food when you eat half of their servings
> or are an active teenager.
> 
> Early days of college I added up the intake of the four of us who
> lived at the Druid Student Center.  On 4500 calories a day, none of us
> were gaining weight.  Marching in ROTC and running to class plus
> weekend activities burned it off.
> 
> Yesterday, for the first time in 8 months, I got a large fries at McD.
> $6.01.  Talk about inflation.
> 
> Keith
> 
> On Thu, Jun 1, 2023 at 8:32?PM spike jones via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Something doesn?t seem right about this story, but USAToday says it is true.  This guy ate only at McDonalds, claims he lost 58 pounds in 100 days:
> >
> >
> >
> > https://www.today.com/health/man-eating-only-mcdonalds-100-days-final-weight-loss-rcna87220 <https://www.today.com/health/man-eating-only-mcdonalds-100-days-final-weight-loss-rcna87220>
> >
> >
> >
> > Well then, OK.  I personally like the tasty repast served up at McDonalds, but I never claimed the dreadful swill is health food.  I like donuts too, but likewise, I don?t even attempt to fool myself that it is nutritious.
> >
> >
> >
> > A number of years ago, McDonalds was sued by a teenager who claimed that McDonalds made her fat.  This was all the fault of McDonalds, so they were liable donchaknow.  That?s when Ronald began offering salad on Happy McMenu, which of course no one ever actually bought (for one does not go to McDonalds for salad (nor to a donut shop.))  But Ronald offers it, and McDonalds is not liable if their viands are so delectable that it renders customers helpless to resist, resulting in the silly proles devouring too much and growing into portly young diabetics with clogged arteries.  Well, imagine that.  It isn?t hard to do: these are well-known consequences of eating too much McD?s and scarfing too many donuts.
> >
> >
> >
> > Casting aside all caution and common sense, I devour the stuff anyway.  Just in moderate quantities.
> >
> >
> >
> > It has been long known that one can have a poor diet and still lose weight, if the total calorie count is sufficiently low.
> >
> >
> >
> > Humans are such a fun species, I do hope that AI doesn?t cause our brutal extinction.
> >
> >
> >
> > spike
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat <http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat <http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From interzone at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 14:37:10 2023
From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2023 10:37:10 -0400
Subject: [ExI] junk food diet
In-Reply-To: <F460705D-F753-463C-8319-0B2B1AF198BB@gmail.com>
References: <003a01d99502$a04c04b0$e0e40e10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB6dX+717GvvS8zhw=v8BJEQfAB7_KQdzUm8MHiGM0LpQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEb6CaOF5USsN2+gRVy6Ct+-QgztuJ_wNin4o3Z82csWBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <F460705D-F753-463C-8319-0B2B1AF198BB@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJrqPH_eDN-Pj3_Z1tDG5b8T0nu_dyaA=F=QUbvspKbjF1Gbaw@mail.gmail.com>

FYI, despite the irony that cooking them in beef tallow is much healthier
than cooking them in an industrial vegetable oil (the change was made due
to a very misguided "health" crusader named Phil Sokolof, not the cost at
the time), McDonalds put a lot of effort into replicating the flavor
results from using tallow.   They actually still add beef flavoring to the
canola oil that they now fry them in with the hope of capturing the essence
of tallow.

On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 10:12?AM Gadersd via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> They changed in response to public pressure to something else.  I wonder
> if they ever changed back?
>
>
> They are still using vegetable oil like every other fast food restaurant
> except perhaps Chick-fil-A which uses peanut oil. Why would they ever
> change back when vegetable oil is cheaper?
>
> On Jun 2, 2023, at 9:01 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Back in the old days - when I was a kid - Mcdonalds cooked their fries in
> beef fat (James Beard, the famous chef, said that beef kidney fat was the
> best).  Chefs said that they could not cook a better fry than McDs.  They
> changed in response to public pressure to something else.  I wonder if they
> ever changed back?  bill w
>
> On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 7:57?AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> If you read the story, it's no wonder that he lost weight.  Nothing
>> particularly wrong with McD food when you eat half of their servings
>> or are an active teenager.
>>
>> Early days of college I added up the intake of the four of us who
>> lived at the Druid Student Center.  On 4500 calories a day, none of us
>> were gaining weight.  Marching in ROTC and running to class plus
>> weekend activities burned it off.
>>
>> Yesterday, for the first time in 8 months, I got a large fries at McD.
>> $6.01.  Talk about inflation.
>>
>> Keith
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 1, 2023 at 8:32?PM spike jones via extropy-chat
>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Something doesn?t seem right about this story, but USAToday says it is
>> true.  This guy ate only at McDonalds, claims he lost 58 pounds in 100 days:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> https://www.today.com/health/man-eating-only-mcdonalds-100-days-final-weight-loss-rcna87220
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Well then, OK.  I personally like the tasty repast served up at
>> McDonalds, but I never claimed the dreadful swill is health food.  I like
>> donuts too, but likewise, I don?t even attempt to fool myself that it is
>> nutritious.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > A number of years ago, McDonalds was sued by a teenager who claimed
>> that McDonalds made her fat.  This was all the fault of McDonalds, so they
>> were liable donchaknow.  That?s when Ronald began offering salad on Happy
>> McMenu, which of course no one ever actually bought (for one does not go to
>> McDonalds for salad (nor to a donut shop.))  But Ronald offers it, and
>> McDonalds is not liable if their viands are so delectable that it renders
>> customers helpless to resist, resulting in the silly proles devouring too
>> much and growing into portly young diabetics with clogged arteries.  Well,
>> imagine that.  It isn?t hard to do: these are well-known consequences of
>> eating too much McD?s and scarfing too many donuts.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Casting aside all caution and common sense, I devour the stuff anyway.
>> Just in moderate quantities.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > It has been long known that one can have a poor diet and still lose
>> weight, if the total calorie count is sufficiently low.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Humans are such a fun species, I do hope that AI doesn?t cause our
>> brutal extinction.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > spike
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From gadersd at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 14:57:29 2023
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2023 10:57:29 -0400
Subject: [ExI] junk food diet
In-Reply-To: <CAJrqPH_eDN-Pj3_Z1tDG5b8T0nu_dyaA=F=QUbvspKbjF1Gbaw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003a01d99502$a04c04b0$e0e40e10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB6dX+717GvvS8zhw=v8BJEQfAB7_KQdzUm8MHiGM0LpQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEb6CaOF5USsN2+gRVy6Ct+-QgztuJ_wNin4o3Z82csWBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <F460705D-F753-463C-8319-0B2B1AF198BB@gmail.com>
 <CAJrqPH_eDN-Pj3_Z1tDG5b8T0nu_dyaA=F=QUbvspKbjF1Gbaw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CC6DD4D5-89C7-45A0-A1F7-4DB4D3E71471@gmail.com>

> McDonalds put a lot of effort into replicating the flavor results from using tallow.   They actually still add beef flavoring to the canola oil that they now fry them in with the hope of capturing the essence of tallow.

This reminds me of the vegan fake meat. People want the taste of real meat, but without the price or damaging environmental effects. I used to eat the stuff but switched to real meat for the real nutritional value. However, I must admit that the fake nutrients do taste good.

> On Jun 2, 2023, at 10:37 AM, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> FYI, despite the irony that cooking them in beef tallow is much healthier than cooking them in an industrial vegetable oil (the change was made due to a very misguided "health" crusader named Phil Sokolof, not the cost at the time), McDonalds put a lot of effort into replicating the flavor results from using tallow.   They actually still add beef flavoring to the canola oil that they now fry them in with the hope of capturing the essence of tallow.
> 
> On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 10:12?AM Gadersd via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>> wrote:
>> They changed in response to public pressure to something else.  I wonder if they ever changed back?
> 
> They are still using vegetable oil like every other fast food restaurant except perhaps Chick-fil-A which uses peanut oil. Why would they ever change back when vegetable oil is cheaper?
> 
>> On Jun 2, 2023, at 9:01 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>> wrote:
>> 
>> Back in the old days - when I was a kid - Mcdonalds cooked their fries in beef fat (James Beard, the famous chef, said that beef kidney fat was the best).  Chefs said that they could not cook a better fry than McDs.  They changed in response to public pressure to something else.  I wonder if they ever changed back?  bill w
>> 
>> On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 7:57?AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>> wrote:
>> If you read the story, it's no wonder that he lost weight.  Nothing
>> particularly wrong with McD food when you eat half of their servings
>> or are an active teenager.
>> 
>> Early days of college I added up the intake of the four of us who
>> lived at the Druid Student Center.  On 4500 calories a day, none of us
>> were gaining weight.  Marching in ROTC and running to class plus
>> weekend activities burned it off.
>> 
>> Yesterday, for the first time in 8 months, I got a large fries at McD.
>> $6.01.  Talk about inflation.
>> 
>> Keith
>> 
>> On Thu, Jun 1, 2023 at 8:32?PM spike jones via extropy-chat
>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Something doesn?t seem right about this story, but USAToday says it is true.  This guy ate only at McDonalds, claims he lost 58 pounds in 100 days:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > https://www.today.com/health/man-eating-only-mcdonalds-100-days-final-weight-loss-rcna87220 <https://www.today.com/health/man-eating-only-mcdonalds-100-days-final-weight-loss-rcna87220>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Well then, OK.  I personally like the tasty repast served up at McDonalds, but I never claimed the dreadful swill is health food.  I like donuts too, but likewise, I don?t even attempt to fool myself that it is nutritious.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > A number of years ago, McDonalds was sued by a teenager who claimed that McDonalds made her fat.  This was all the fault of McDonalds, so they were liable donchaknow.  That?s when Ronald began offering salad on Happy McMenu, which of course no one ever actually bought (for one does not go to McDonalds for salad (nor to a donut shop.))  But Ronald offers it, and McDonalds is not liable if their viands are so delectable that it renders customers helpless to resist, resulting in the silly proles devouring too much and growing into portly young diabetics with clogged arteries.  Well, imagine that.  It isn?t hard to do: these are well-known consequences of eating too much McD?s and scarfing too many donuts.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Casting aside all caution and common sense, I devour the stuff anyway.  Just in moderate quantities.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > It has been long known that one can have a poor diet and still lose weight, if the total calorie count is sufficiently low.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Humans are such a fun species, I do hope that AI doesn?t cause our brutal extinction.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > spike
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat <http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat>
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat <http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat <http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat <http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Jun  2 15:09:00 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2023 08:09:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] junk food diet
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB6dX+717GvvS8zhw=v8BJEQfAB7_KQdzUm8MHiGM0LpQg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003a01d99502$a04c04b0$e0e40e10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB6dX+717GvvS8zhw=v8BJEQfAB7_KQdzUm8MHiGM0LpQg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00b701d99564$29bdc0b0$7d394210$@rainier66.com>


...> On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat
.

>...Early days of college I added up the intake of the four of us who lived at the Druid Student Center.  On 4500 calories a day, none of us were gaining weight...Keith


We used to dreeeaammmmm of 4500 calories a day.

Back in my college days, the phrase "I can't afford the calories" was literally true but had an entirely different meaning.

spike




From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 16:22:30 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2023 09:22:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] junk food diet
In-Reply-To: <00b701d99564$29bdc0b0$7d394210$@rainier66.com>
References: <003a01d99502$a04c04b0$e0e40e10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB6dX+717GvvS8zhw=v8BJEQfAB7_KQdzUm8MHiGM0LpQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b701d99564$29bdc0b0$7d394210$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4S9hVFDLvSM8H_t3_9Nouo2dr1tzbacQfEdmY9b1L5RQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 8:10?AM spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
> ...> On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat
> .
>
> >...Early days of college I added up the intake of the four of us who lived at the Druid Student Center.  On 4500 calories a day, none of us were gaining weight...Keith
>
>
> We used to dreeeaammmmm of 4500 calories a day.

At the time I was still a military dependent and could shop the
commissary at Davis-Monthan. Roast was 19 cents a pound.

Keith

> Back in my college days, the phrase "I can't afford the calories" was literally true but had an entirely different meaning.
>
> spike
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Jun  2 16:32:30 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2023 09:32:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] junk food diet
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB4S9hVFDLvSM8H_t3_9Nouo2dr1tzbacQfEdmY9b1L5RQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003a01d99502$a04c04b0$e0e40e10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB6dX+717GvvS8zhw=v8BJEQfAB7_KQdzUm8MHiGM0LpQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b701d99564$29bdc0b0$7d394210$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB4S9hVFDLvSM8H_t3_9Nouo2dr1tzbacQfEdmY9b1L5RQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000e01d9956f$d4e5aab0$7eb10010$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> 


>>>....  On 4500 calories a day, none of us were gaining weight...Keith

>>... We used to dreeeaammmmm of 4500 calories a day.

>...At the time I was still a military dependent and could shop the commissary at Davis-Monthan. Roast was 19 cents a pound.

Keith


We used to dreeeaaammmm of owning 19 cents.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue7wM0QC5LE

Keith this part isn't the four Yorkshire gentlemen: the college where I graduated had no meat.  If you wanted that, you had to go way off campus somewhere which would require a car (I had no car) or a bicycle (I had no bicycle) or in a pinch a skateboard might do (I had no skateboard.)  But we could borrow a car and go get boxes of you-pick-em apples at ten cents a pound, being in apple country (southern Washington.)

In retrospect, I don't know how the hell I managed to win my bride's heart with no money, no car, no good looks, no personality, no brains, nothing.  She also had no money and no car, but she had the rest of the package.  So... we never left campus.  Except on foot.  If we could afford shoes.

spike




From efc at swisscows.email  Fri Jun  2 16:40:41 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2023 18:40:41 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] junk food diet
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEb6CaOF5USsN2+gRVy6Ct+-QgztuJ_wNin4o3Z82csWBg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003a01d99502$a04c04b0$e0e40e10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB6dX+717GvvS8zhw=v8BJEQfAB7_KQdzUm8MHiGM0LpQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEb6CaOF5USsN2+gRVy6Ct+-QgztuJ_wNin4o3Z82csWBg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3a76411e-23ae-cdab-f6fe-33970f349fe3@swisscows.email>

Fascinating!

I only had beef fat fries in upscale restaurants, and it's good! As for 
McD, I also enjoy the occasional burger, but my recipe is only burger, no 
cola and no fries.

But when it comes to the effect on my weight, I have no idea. I've always 
had a very high metabolism, and during vacation times I drop to only 2 
meals per day, and more sleep than usual so I tend to lose weight during 
my vacations.

Best regards,
Daniel


On Fri, 2 Jun 2023, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:

> Back in the old days - when I was a kid - Mcdonalds cooked their fries in beef fat (James Beard, the famous chef, said that beef
> kidney fat was the best).? Chefs said that they could not cook a better fry than McDs.? They changed in response to public pressure
> to something else.? I wonder if they ever changed back?? bill w
> 
> On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 7:57?AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>       If you read the story, it's no wonder that he lost weight.? Nothing
>       particularly wrong with McD food when you eat half of their servings
>       or are an active teenager.
>
>       Early days of college I added up the intake of the four of us who
>       lived at the Druid Student Center.? On 4500 calories a day, none of us
>       were gaining weight.? Marching in ROTC and running to class plus
>       weekend activities burned it off.
>
>       Yesterday, for the first time in 8 months, I got a large fries at McD.
>       $6.01.? Talk about inflation.
>
>       Keith
>
>       On Thu, Jun 1, 2023 at 8:32?PM spike jones via extropy-chat
>       <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>       >
>       >
>       >
>       >
>       >
>       >
>       >
>       > Something doesn?t seem right about this story, but USAToday says it is true.? This guy ate only at McDonalds, claims he
>       lost 58 pounds in 100 days:
>       >
>       >
>       >
>       > https://www.today.com/health/man-eating-only-mcdonalds-100-days-final-weight-loss-rcna87220
>       >
>       >
>       >
>       > Well then, OK.? I personally like the tasty repast served up at McDonalds, but I never claimed the dreadful swill is
>       health food.? I like donuts too, but likewise, I don?t even attempt to fool myself that it is nutritious.
>       >
>       >
>       >
>       > A number of years ago, McDonalds was sued by a teenager who claimed that McDonalds made her fat.? This was all the
>       fault of McDonalds, so they were liable donchaknow.? That?s when Ronald began offering salad on Happy McMenu, which of
>       course no one ever actually bought (for one does not go to McDonalds for salad (nor to a donut shop.))? But Ronald offers
>       it, and McDonalds is not liable if their viands are so delectable that it renders customers helpless to resist, resulting
>       in the silly proles devouring too much and growing into portly young diabetics with clogged arteries.? Well, imagine
>       that.? It isn?t hard to do: these are well-known consequences of eating too much McD?s and scarfing too many donuts.
>       >
>       >
>       >
>       > Casting aside all caution and common sense, I devour the stuff anyway.? Just in moderate quantities.
>       >
>       >
>       >
>       > It has been long known that one can have a poor diet and still lose weight, if the total calorie count is sufficiently
>       low.
>       >
>       >
>       >
>       > Humans are such a fun species, I do hope that AI doesn?t cause our brutal extinction.
>       >
>       >
>       >
>       > spike
>       >
>       > _______________________________________________
>       > extropy-chat mailing list
>       > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>       > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>       _______________________________________________
>       extropy-chat mailing list
>       extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>       http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 
> 
>

From efc at swisscows.email  Fri Jun  2 16:54:07 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2023 18:54:07 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] India and the periodic table
In-Reply-To: <004901d9949c$ca0ae160$5e20a420$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901d9949c$ca0ae160$5e20a420$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <698ee512-205d-e93a-21d3-7ef08cb4d3f6@swisscows.email>

Would you say that there is an authoritarian and anti-scientific trend 
currently in the world?

For me, personally, and at the risk of perhaps stepping on some republican 
and/or christian toes, the US abortion debate comes to mind, and to pick an
example from sweden, there is a growing anti-immigration sentiment. Also, in
terms of knowledge, politicians have removed learning how to use pen and paper and 
have children focus on ipads, as well as trying to get children to learn 
how to program, without any fundamentals. The past couple of years in the 
PISA (some kind of international scoring system for educational systems) 
swedens students have dropped a lot of positions.

Best regards,
Daniel


On Thu, 1 Jun 2023, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
> Keith Henson
> Subject: [ExI] India and the periodic table
>
> Nature reports that India has removed evolution and the periodic table from
> textbooks.
>
> Keith
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> That explains why India's brightest and best have been struggling to live
> and work in the US and Europe.
>
> Keith dumb people are easier to control than smart ones.
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


From efc at swisscows.email  Fri Jun  2 17:01:57 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2023 19:01:57 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Thoughts on AI engineers
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB5g=6FzpcBFF+VJNA7bfbuAGckVoUNDdrinTuPBVp7ZFw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5g=6FzpcBFF+VJNA7bfbuAGckVoUNDdrinTuPBVp7ZFw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e9ac7248-8bc2-60f4-5145-0671a2f0abc3@swisscows.email>



On Thu, 1 Jun 2023, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote:

> We're at a point where there are groups of people in the world who are
> crafting the next mega-corporations.  We don't know who they are, we
> don't know their intent, nor do we understand their moral compass.
> That is just fucking terrifying, based on the aggregate actions of
> humanity.  The only small hope is that geeks tend to be of high moral

Well, we've had the capability to destroy the planet for a long time,
and so far, despite all the dictators and crazy people in positions of
power, we have not done it. So to me, that proves that there's more good
than bad in humanity, on the balance.

> Since now you can offload all of your competent talent to
> jurisdictions with no regulation.

The problem is that in order to grow to that size, you need global
reach, and more regulated countries tend to not allow you to do business
from/to completely unregulated countries.

Best regards, 
Daniel


>
> (end quote)
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Keith
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 17:03:18 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2023 10:03:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] junk food diet
In-Reply-To: <000e01d9956f$d4e5aab0$7eb10010$@rainier66.com>
References: <003a01d99502$a04c04b0$e0e40e10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB6dX+717GvvS8zhw=v8BJEQfAB7_KQdzUm8MHiGM0LpQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b701d99564$29bdc0b0$7d394210$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB4S9hVFDLvSM8H_t3_9Nouo2dr1tzbacQfEdmY9b1L5RQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000e01d9956f$d4e5aab0$7eb10010$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6AiZGL8gXykQ2aRk_GDpUJKQZFJZp+m-oqALvba0OMzQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 9:33?AM spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> In retrospect, I don't know how the hell I managed to win my bride's heart

A couple of ways.  You most likely have compatible MHC genes.  The
other thing is here:

https://faculty.econ.ucdavis.edu/faculty/gclark/ClarkGlasgow2021.pdf

There is a typo on page 9.  The first "maternal" should be "paternal."
 I have not managed to contact Clark and get him to fix it.  (Sorry if
I already mentioned this, I know I have short-term memory problems.)

But the thing that boggles me is how humans detect a .8 genetic
similarity without gene analyzers.

Keith
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 17:07:04 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2023 10:07:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Thoughts on AI engineers
In-Reply-To: <e9ac7248-8bc2-60f4-5145-0671a2f0abc3@swisscows.email>
References: <CAPiwVB5g=6FzpcBFF+VJNA7bfbuAGckVoUNDdrinTuPBVp7ZFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <e9ac7248-8bc2-60f4-5145-0671a2f0abc3@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4Q=a7njopaB9s0Z-s9CxW=k12bAoyYyk9k-+riiAiXGQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 10:03?AM efc--- via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 1 Jun 2023, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote:

Was actually a quote from Kris Holland.

Keith
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Fri Jun  2 17:09:08 2023
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2023 13:09:08 -0400
Subject: [ExI] junk food diet
In-Reply-To: <3a76411e-23ae-cdab-f6fe-33970f349fe3@swisscows.email>
References: <003a01d99502$a04c04b0$e0e40e10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB6dX+717GvvS8zhw=v8BJEQfAB7_KQdzUm8MHiGM0LpQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEb6CaOF5USsN2+gRVy6Ct+-QgztuJ_wNin4o3Z82csWBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <3a76411e-23ae-cdab-f6fe-33970f349fe3@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <9b1fe4a775f7093c2ac8cd5169170ee9.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>

McD is an interesting place.  After one our hurricane disasters, where
power was out for days and days, no running water, etc., I went to town to
buy ice. Shops all out of ice. :(  Stopped by McD to buy a salad - a good
break from unheated canned goods - and the older clerk there gave me a
cooler full of ice! Free for nothing!  I've never forgotten.  She saved
all my frozen food!

Although I do not often patronize fast food places, I do remember McD
fries as Excellent. After medical tests I used to stop for an
Egg-Bacon-Cheese biscuit as a reward for being stuck with needles. :) 
That is another thing better than I can make at home.

Perfectly willing to believe the guy in the original story lost weight -
it depends what you choose to order and eat.  They have kid portions and
small stuff as well as whopping big burgers, sodas, and fries.  (The
comment about the sodium overload is probably accurate though.)

Regards,
MB





On Fri, June 2, 2023 12:40, efc--- via extropy-chat wrote:
> Fascinating!
>
> I only had beef fat fries in upscale restaurants, and it's good! As for
> McD, I also enjoy the occasional burger, but my recipe is only burger, no
> cola and no fries.
>
> But when it comes to the effect on my weight, I have no idea. I've always
> had a very high metabolism, and during vacation times I drop to only 2
> meals per day, and more sleep than usual so I tend to lose weight during
> my vacations.
>
> Best regards,
> Daniel
>
>
> On Fri, 2 Jun 2023, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:
>
>> Back in the old days - when I was a kid - Mcdonalds cooked their fries
>> in beef fat (James Beard, the famous chef, said that beef
>> kidney fat was the best).? Chefs said that they could not cook a better
>> fry than McDs.? They changed in response to public pressure
>> to something else.? I wonder if they ever changed back?? bill w
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 7:57?AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat
>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>       If you read the story, it's no wonder that he lost weight.?
>> Nothing
>>       particularly wrong with McD food when you eat half of their
>> servings
>>       or are an active teenager.
>>
>>       Early days of college I added up the intake of the four of us who
>>       lived at the Druid Student Center.? On 4500 calories a day, none
>> of us
>>       were gaining weight.? Marching in ROTC and running to class plus
>>       weekend activities burned it off.
>>
>>       Yesterday, for the first time in 8 months, I got a large fries at
>> McD.
>>       $6.01.? Talk about inflation.
>>
>>       Keith
>>
>>       On Thu, Jun 1, 2023 at 8:32?PM spike jones via extropy-chat
>>       <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>       >
>>       >
>>       >
>>       >
>>       >
>>       >
>>       >
>>       > Something doesn?t seem right about this story, but USAToday says
>> it is true.? This guy ate only at McDonalds, claims he
>>       lost 58 pounds in 100 days:
>>       >
>>       >
>>       >
>>       > https://www.today.com/health/man-eating-only-mcdonalds-100-days-final-weight-loss-rcna87220
>>       >
>>       >
>>       >
>>       > Well then, OK.? I personally like the tasty repast served up at
>> McDonalds, but I never claimed the dreadful swill is
>>       health food.? I like donuts too, but likewise, I don?t even
>> attempt to fool myself that it is nutritious.
>>       >
>>       >
>>       >
>>       > A number of years ago, McDonalds was sued by a teenager who
>> claimed that McDonalds made her fat.? This was all the
>>       fault of McDonalds, so they were liable donchaknow.? That?s when
>> Ronald began offering salad on Happy McMenu, which of
>>       course no one ever actually bought (for one does not go to
>> McDonalds for salad (nor to a donut shop.))? But Ronald offers
>>       it, and McDonalds is not liable if their viands are so delectable
>> that it renders customers helpless to resist, resulting
>>       in the silly proles devouring too much and growing into portly
>> young diabetics with clogged arteries.? Well, imagine
>>       that.? It isn?t hard to do: these are well-known consequences of
>> eating too much McD?s and scarfing too many donuts.
>>       >
>>       >
>>       >
>>       > Casting aside all caution and common sense, I devour the stuff
>> anyway.? Just in moderate quantities.
>>       >
>>       >
>>       >
>>       > It has been long known that one can have a poor diet and still
>> lose weight, if the total calorie count is sufficiently
>>       low.
>>       >
>>       >
>>       >
>>       > Humans are such a fun species, I do hope that AI doesn?t cause
>> our brutal extinction.
>>       >
>>       >
>>       >
>>       > spike


From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Jun  2 17:41:42 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2023 10:41:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] India and the periodic table
In-Reply-To: <698ee512-205d-e93a-21d3-7ef08cb4d3f6@swisscows.email>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901d9949c$ca0ae160$5e20a420$@rainier66.com>
 <698ee512-205d-e93a-21d3-7ef08cb4d3f6@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <002301d99579$7ea11e50$7be35af0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
efc--- via extropy-chat

Subject: Re: [ExI] India and the periodic table

>...Would you say that there is an authoritarian and anti-scientific trend
currently in the world?

Best regards,
Daniel



It sure feels that way from my perspective Daniel.  There seems to be a big
subjectivist push, where every person is entitled to define their own
reality, regardless of how silly.  This has its consequences, de-emphasizing
objective reality, resulting in removal of the periodic table and evolution
from education.

This trend is one I hope will reverse course soon as the western world
realizes China and India are not caught up in our collective self-delusions.

spike


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 17:43:01 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2023 10:43:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] junk food diet
In-Reply-To: <9b1fe4a775f7093c2ac8cd5169170ee9.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
References: <003a01d99502$a04c04b0$e0e40e10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB6dX+717GvvS8zhw=v8BJEQfAB7_KQdzUm8MHiGM0LpQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEb6CaOF5USsN2+gRVy6Ct+-QgztuJ_wNin4o3Z82csWBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <3a76411e-23ae-cdab-f6fe-33970f349fe3@swisscows.email>
 <9b1fe4a775f7093c2ac8cd5169170ee9.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7zPQ8T3JBa8VHt+eRcYVHbQvQXzGQb=LLLCnxKA5fzyQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 10:21?AM MB via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
  (The
> comment about the sodium overload is probably accurate though.)

I suspect that sodium sensitivity is idiosyncratic. depends on what
genes you have.  In my case, going on low sodium causes my blood
pressure to go up.  (Or did some years ago.)

Keith


> Regards,
> MB
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, June 2, 2023 12:40, efc--- via extropy-chat wrote:
> > Fascinating!
> >
> > I only had beef fat fries in upscale restaurants, and it's good! As for
> > McD, I also enjoy the occasional burger, but my recipe is only burger, no
> > cola and no fries.
> >
> > But when it comes to the effect on my weight, I have no idea. I've always
> > had a very high metabolism, and during vacation times I drop to only 2
> > meals per day, and more sleep than usual so I tend to lose weight during
> > my vacations.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Daniel
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 2 Jun 2023, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:
> >
> >> Back in the old days - when I was a kid - Mcdonalds cooked their fries
> >> in beef fat (James Beard, the famous chef, said that beef
> >> kidney fat was the best).  Chefs said that they could not cook a better
> >> fry than McDs.  They changed in response to public pressure
> >> to something else.  I wonder if they ever changed back?  bill w
> >>
> >> On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 7:57?AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat
> >> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >>       If you read the story, it's no wonder that he lost weight.
> >> Nothing
> >>       particularly wrong with McD food when you eat half of their
> >> servings
> >>       or are an active teenager.
> >>
> >>       Early days of college I added up the intake of the four of us who
> >>       lived at the Druid Student Center.  On 4500 calories a day, none
> >> of us
> >>       were gaining weight.  Marching in ROTC and running to class plus
> >>       weekend activities burned it off.
> >>
> >>       Yesterday, for the first time in 8 months, I got a large fries at
> >> McD.
> >>       $6.01.  Talk about inflation.
> >>
> >>       Keith
> >>
> >>       On Thu, Jun 1, 2023 at 8:32?PM spike jones via extropy-chat
> >>       <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >>       >
> >>       >
> >>       >
> >>       >
> >>       >
> >>       >
> >>       >
> >>       > Something doesn?t seem right about this story, but USAToday says
> >> it is true.  This guy ate only at McDonalds, claims he
> >>       lost 58 pounds in 100 days:
> >>       >
> >>       >
> >>       >
> >>       > https://www.today.com/health/man-eating-only-mcdonalds-100-days-final-weight-loss-rcna87220
> >>       >
> >>       >
> >>       >
> >>       > Well then, OK.  I personally like the tasty repast served up at
> >> McDonalds, but I never claimed the dreadful swill is
> >>       health food.  I like donuts too, but likewise, I don?t even
> >> attempt to fool myself that it is nutritious.
> >>       >
> >>       >
> >>       >
> >>       > A number of years ago, McDonalds was sued by a teenager who
> >> claimed that McDonalds made her fat.  This was all the
> >>       fault of McDonalds, so they were liable donchaknow.  That?s when
> >> Ronald began offering salad on Happy McMenu, which of
> >>       course no one ever actually bought (for one does not go to
> >> McDonalds for salad (nor to a donut shop.))  But Ronald offers
> >>       it, and McDonalds is not liable if their viands are so delectable
> >> that it renders customers helpless to resist, resulting
> >>       in the silly proles devouring too much and growing into portly
> >> young diabetics with clogged arteries.  Well, imagine
> >>       that.  It isn?t hard to do: these are well-known consequences of
> >> eating too much McD?s and scarfing too many donuts.
> >>       >
> >>       >
> >>       >
> >>       > Casting aside all caution and common sense, I devour the stuff
> >> anyway.  Just in moderate quantities.
> >>       >
> >>       >
> >>       >
> >>       > It has been long known that one can have a poor diet and still
> >> lose weight, if the total calorie count is sufficiently
> >>       low.
> >>       >
> >>       >
> >>       >
> >>       > Humans are such a fun species, I do hope that AI doesn?t cause
> >> our brutal extinction.
> >>       >
> >>       >
> >>       >
> >>       > spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 18:07:31 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2023 13:07:31 -0500
Subject: [ExI] junk food diet
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7zPQ8T3JBa8VHt+eRcYVHbQvQXzGQb=LLLCnxKA5fzyQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003a01d99502$a04c04b0$e0e40e10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB6dX+717GvvS8zhw=v8BJEQfAB7_KQdzUm8MHiGM0LpQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEb6CaOF5USsN2+gRVy6Ct+-QgztuJ_wNin4o3Z82csWBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <3a76411e-23ae-cdab-f6fe-33970f349fe3@swisscows.email>
 <9b1fe4a775f7093c2ac8cd5169170ee9.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAPiwVB7zPQ8T3JBa8VHt+eRcYVHbQvQXzGQb=LLLCnxKA5fzyQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY6TX34KBPx+ROfvwJ4Gf4FsDEVVNYMFsR2m2LGeJfcQw@mail.gmail.com>

I suspect that sodium sensitivity is idiosyncratic. depends on what
genes you have.  In my case, going on low sodium causes my blood
pressure to go up. Or did some years ago.  Keith

I read some years ago that salt affects blood pressure only in about 1/4 of
the people.  Have not seen that contradicted.   So the advice, still given
I read, is wrong for most people.  bill w

On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 12:50?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 10:21?AM MB via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>   (The
> > comment about the sodium overload is probably accurate though.)
>
> I suspect that sodium sensitivity is idiosyncratic. depends on what
> genes you have.  In my case, going on low sodium causes my blood
> pressure to go up.  (Or did some years ago.)
>
> Keith
>
>
> > Regards,
> > MB
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, June 2, 2023 12:40, efc--- via extropy-chat wrote:
> > > Fascinating!
> > >
> > > I only had beef fat fries in upscale restaurants, and it's good! As for
> > > McD, I also enjoy the occasional burger, but my recipe is only burger,
> no
> > > cola and no fries.
> > >
> > > But when it comes to the effect on my weight, I have no idea. I've
> always
> > > had a very high metabolism, and during vacation times I drop to only 2
> > > meals per day, and more sleep than usual so I tend to lose weight
> during
> > > my vacations.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > Daniel
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, 2 Jun 2023, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:
> > >
> > >> Back in the old days - when I was a kid - Mcdonalds cooked their fries
> > >> in beef fat (James Beard, the famous chef, said that beef
> > >> kidney fat was the best).  Chefs said that they could not cook a
> better
> > >> fry than McDs.  They changed in response to public pressure
> > >> to something else.  I wonder if they ever changed back?  bill w
> > >>
> > >> On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 7:57?AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat
> > >> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> > >>       If you read the story, it's no wonder that he lost weight.
> > >> Nothing
> > >>       particularly wrong with McD food when you eat half of their
> > >> servings
> > >>       or are an active teenager.
> > >>
> > >>       Early days of college I added up the intake of the four of us
> who
> > >>       lived at the Druid Student Center.  On 4500 calories a day, none
> > >> of us
> > >>       were gaining weight.  Marching in ROTC and running to class plus
> > >>       weekend activities burned it off.
> > >>
> > >>       Yesterday, for the first time in 8 months, I got a large fries
> at
> > >> McD.
> > >>       $6.01.  Talk about inflation.
> > >>
> > >>       Keith
> > >>
> > >>       On Thu, Jun 1, 2023 at 8:32?PM spike jones via extropy-chat
> > >>       <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> > >>       >
> > >>       >
> > >>       >
> > >>       >
> > >>       >
> > >>       >
> > >>       >
> > >>       > Something doesn?t seem right about this story, but USAToday
> says
> > >> it is true.  This guy ate only at McDonalds, claims he
> > >>       lost 58 pounds in 100 days:
> > >>       >
> > >>       >
> > >>       >
> > >>       >
> https://www.today.com/health/man-eating-only-mcdonalds-100-days-final-weight-loss-rcna87220
> > >>       >
> > >>       >
> > >>       >
> > >>       > Well then, OK.  I personally like the tasty repast served up
> at
> > >> McDonalds, but I never claimed the dreadful swill is
> > >>       health food.  I like donuts too, but likewise, I don?t even
> > >> attempt to fool myself that it is nutritious.
> > >>       >
> > >>       >
> > >>       >
> > >>       > A number of years ago, McDonalds was sued by a teenager who
> > >> claimed that McDonalds made her fat.  This was all the
> > >>       fault of McDonalds, so they were liable donchaknow.  That?s when
> > >> Ronald began offering salad on Happy McMenu, which of
> > >>       course no one ever actually bought (for one does not go to
> > >> McDonalds for salad (nor to a donut shop.))  But Ronald offers
> > >>       it, and McDonalds is not liable if their viands are so
> delectable
> > >> that it renders customers helpless to resist, resulting
> > >>       in the silly proles devouring too much and growing into portly
> > >> young diabetics with clogged arteries.  Well, imagine
> > >>       that.  It isn?t hard to do: these are well-known consequences of
> > >> eating too much McD?s and scarfing too many donuts.
> > >>       >
> > >>       >
> > >>       >
> > >>       > Casting aside all caution and common sense, I devour the stuff
> > >> anyway.  Just in moderate quantities.
> > >>       >
> > >>       >
> > >>       >
> > >>       > It has been long known that one can have a poor diet and still
> > >> lose weight, if the total calorie count is sufficiently
> > >>       low.
> > >>       >
> > >>       >
> > >>       >
> > >>       > Humans are such a fun species, I do hope that AI doesn?t cause
> > >> our brutal extinction.
> > >>       >
> > >>       >
> > >>       >
> > >>       > spike
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 18:37:20 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2023 11:37:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] India and the periodic table
In-Reply-To: <002301d99579$7ea11e50$7be35af0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901d9949c$ca0ae160$5e20a420$@rainier66.com>
 <698ee512-205d-e93a-21d3-7ef08cb4d3f6@swisscows.email>
 <002301d99579$7ea11e50$7be35af0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5-7aDm8vfZej4qG_sN6vsBPZfaXUqhu6RSDhVDc4q8zA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 10:43?AM spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
snip
>
> This trend is one I hope will reverse course soon as the western world
> realizes China and India are not caught up in our collective self-delusions.

With China rejecting AI and India dumping evolution and the periodic
table, the Western world is looking relatively better.  At least I
don't know of any school that has tossed out the periodic table.

Keith

> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 19:15:02 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2023 20:15:02 +0100
Subject: [ExI] India and the periodic table
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB5-7aDm8vfZej4qG_sN6vsBPZfaXUqhu6RSDhVDc4q8zA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901d9949c$ca0ae160$5e20a420$@rainier66.com>
 <698ee512-205d-e93a-21d3-7ef08cb4d3f6@swisscows.email>
 <002301d99579$7ea11e50$7be35af0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5-7aDm8vfZej4qG_sN6vsBPZfaXUqhu6RSDhVDc4q8zA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armi272vmq5th0Ow6LYdw=pLOBVAM+fYu6RjOHYSd8h+tew@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 2 Jun 2023 at 19:40, Keith Henson via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> With China rejecting AI and India dumping evolution and the periodic
> table, the Western world is looking relatively better.  At least I
> don't know of any school that has tossed out the periodic table.
>
> Keith
> _______________________________________________


I don't think China is rejecting AI.
What they are rejecting is uncontrolled AI development.
<https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/01/chinas-xi-jinping-calls-for-greater-state-control-of-ai-to-counter-dangerous-storms>
Quote:
AI products will be required to reflect ?core socialist values?, the
draft law states, and must not ?contain content on subversion of state
power?.
Also,
The nation has announced ambitious plans to become a global leader in
AI by 2030. Consultancy group McKinsey estimates the sector could add
about $600 billion every year to China's gross domestic product by
then.
------------

BillK


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 20:52:08 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2023 15:52:08 -0500
Subject: [ExI] tuberculosis
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZoFiOcjz93bqs_D9ynkR2WJ_TU1hYSCrM_m-QfzFb0Pg@mail.gmail.com>

Perhaps you have seen the story:  they finally caught up with a women who
has acuteTB and has refused treatment.  She was jailed for 45 days.

I will assume, awaiting your comments, that this is wrong according to
libertarian principles which include not being a harm to others.

But should she be held down and antibiotics forced on her?

bill w
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 22:56:59 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2023 15:56:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] India and the periodic table
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armi272vmq5th0Ow6LYdw=pLOBVAM+fYu6RjOHYSd8h+tew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901d9949c$ca0ae160$5e20a420$@rainier66.com>
 <698ee512-205d-e93a-21d3-7ef08cb4d3f6@swisscows.email>
 <002301d99579$7ea11e50$7be35af0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5-7aDm8vfZej4qG_sN6vsBPZfaXUqhu6RSDhVDc4q8zA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armi272vmq5th0Ow6LYdw=pLOBVAM+fYu6RjOHYSd8h+tew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7-4Ou4cu43m74VO6Z5oNDYC2tq9gmKrQq_B0e1Fq0SrA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 12:16?PM BillK via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> On Fri, 2 Jun 2023 at 19:40, Keith Henson via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > With China rejecting AI and India dumping evolution and the periodic
> > table, the Western world is looking relatively better.  At least I
> > don't know of any school that has tossed out the periodic table.
> >
> > Keith
> > _______________________________________________
>
> I don't think China is rejecting AI.
> What they are rejecting is uncontrolled AI development.
> <https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/01/chinas-xi-jinping-calls-for-greater-state-control-of-ai-to-counter-dangerous-storms>
> Quote:
> AI products will be required to reflect ?core socialist values?, the
> draft law states, and must not ?contain content on subversion of state
> power?.

At one time a few years ago AI projects were attracting considerable
investment from outside China.  These kinds of state involvement dried
up the funding.

It is not clear that what China has stated will be possible.  LLM AI
surprises everyone with how they can get around rules.

> Also,
> The nation has announced ambitious plans to become a global leader in
> AI by 2030. Consultancy group McKinsey estimates the sector could add
> about $600 billion every year to China's gross domestic product by
> then.

At the rate things are going, 2030 will be far too late.  For quite a
few years I thought China would outstrip the Western world.  Now I
suspect they will be left in the dust.

Should be better than India, but that's not saying much.

Keith

> ------------
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Jun  2 23:10:18 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2023 16:10:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] India and the periodic table
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB5-7aDm8vfZej4qG_sN6vsBPZfaXUqhu6RSDhVDc4q8zA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901d9949c$ca0ae160$5e20a420$@rainier66.com>
 <698ee512-205d-e93a-21d3-7ef08cb4d3f6@swisscows.email>
 <002301d99579$7ea11e50$7be35af0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5-7aDm8vfZej4qG_sN6vsBPZfaXUqhu6RSDhVDc4q8zA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00bd01d995a7$665b0b20$33112160$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> 
Subject: Re: [ExI] India and the periodic table

On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 10:43?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
snip
>
>>... This trend is one I hope will reverse course soon as the western world 
> realizes China and India are not caught up in our collective self-delusions.

>...With China rejecting AI and India dumping evolution and the periodic table, the Western world is looking relatively better.  At least I don't know of any school that has tossed out the periodic table.

Keith


Keith fun aside for yas: I had never seen the periodic table until I was a junior in high school in a chemistry class.  When I did, I was so amazed, I used to just sit and study it, with all the numbers, including electronegativity, the common isotopes, etc.  The answers to everything were right there on one kinda busy page.

I had never heard of the theory of evolution to any real extent until my first year of college.  If you ever try to understand biology without that concept, you appreciate the hell outta why the old timers from the 1800s realized it answered so many puzzling problems in biology.

Imagine trying to understand either chemistry or biology without the periodic table or the concept of evolution.

Prediction: both China and India will reverse course in the foreseeable future.

spike




From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 23:37:43 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2023 00:37:43 +0100
Subject: [ExI] India and the periodic table
In-Reply-To: <00bd01d995a7$665b0b20$33112160$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901d9949c$ca0ae160$5e20a420$@rainier66.com>
 <698ee512-205d-e93a-21d3-7ef08cb4d3f6@swisscows.email>
 <002301d99579$7ea11e50$7be35af0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5-7aDm8vfZej4qG_sN6vsBPZfaXUqhu6RSDhVDc4q8zA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00bd01d995a7$665b0b20$33112160$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armiaySGThZuWKA1i8D_p8QA8uMgMgqvmKudJkbzFSaYK3g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 3 Jun 2023 at 00:12, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Keith fun aside for yas: I had never seen the periodic table until I was a junior in high school in a chemistry class.  When I did, I was so amazed, I used to just sit and study it, with all the numbers, including electronegativity, the common isotopes, etc.  The answers to everything were right there on one kinda busy page.
>
> I had never heard of the theory of evolution to any real extent until my first year of college.  If you ever try to understand biology without that concept, you appreciate the hell outta why the old timers from the 1800s realized it answered so many puzzling problems in biology.
>
> Imagine trying to understand either chemistry or biology without the periodic table or the concept of evolution.
> Prediction: both China and India will reverse course in the foreseeable future.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


Already reversed.  India has explained that these subjects are taught
to students age 16 and over (Classes 11 and 12).

<https://www.indiatoday.in/education-today/story/ncert-reason-chapters-deleted-class-10-textbooks-2387711-2023-06-02>

BillK


From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Jun  3 00:17:05 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2023 01:17:05 +0100
Subject: [ExI] H+ Academy Discussion - AI Pause vs. Proceed
Message-ID: <CAL_armgnWEJakNmuNME9u=TNK+dy18e41Fbg4u4V-z-rCnQUyg@mail.gmail.com>

26 May 2023   Discussion on AI, GPT-4 and the Open Letter". 1hr 20min.
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=EaijyqS1MOw>
Panelists include -
Ben Goertzel, Robin Hanson, Max More, Anders Sandberg,
Natasha Vita-More, Peter Voss

We discuss and debate 4 areas of concern:
(1) Spectrum of Cultural Concepts of AI and GPT-4;
(2) Logic of Assertion that Large language models resulting in AGI;
(3) Plausibility of AI-Foom vs. Soft take-off; and
(4) Practicality of the "AI-pause".
----------------------

BillK

From gadersd at gmail.com  Sat Jun  3 01:02:48 2023
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2023 21:02:48 -0400
Subject: [ExI] India and the periodic table
In-Reply-To: <00bd01d995a7$665b0b20$33112160$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901d9949c$ca0ae160$5e20a420$@rainier66.com>
 <698ee512-205d-e93a-21d3-7ef08cb4d3f6@swisscows.email>
 <002301d99579$7ea11e50$7be35af0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5-7aDm8vfZej4qG_sN6vsBPZfaXUqhu6RSDhVDc4q8zA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00bd01d995a7$665b0b20$33112160$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <0E7614CE-AD96-4746-AEF1-FF8963AE96AC@gmail.com>

> Prediction: both China and India will reverse course in the foreseeable future.

The Chinese government loves power too much to let itself be left in the dust. Be prepared for Communist Censorship Chatbots to take the stage.

> On Jun 2, 2023, at 7:10 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> 
> Subject: Re: [ExI] India and the periodic table
> 
> On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 10:43?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> 
> snip
>> 
>>> ... This trend is one I hope will reverse course soon as the western world 
>> realizes China and India are not caught up in our collective self-delusions.
> 
>> ...With China rejecting AI and India dumping evolution and the periodic table, the Western world is looking relatively better.  At least I don't know of any school that has tossed out the periodic table.
> 
> Keith
> 
> 
> Keith fun aside for yas: I had never seen the periodic table until I was a junior in high school in a chemistry class.  When I did, I was so amazed, I used to just sit and study it, with all the numbers, including electronegativity, the common isotopes, etc.  The answers to everything were right there on one kinda busy page.
> 
> I had never heard of the theory of evolution to any real extent until my first year of college.  If you ever try to understand biology without that concept, you appreciate the hell outta why the old timers from the 1800s realized it answered so many puzzling problems in biology.
> 
> Imagine trying to understand either chemistry or biology without the periodic table or the concept of evolution.
> 
> Prediction: both China and India will reverse course in the foreseeable future.
> 
> spike
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Jun  3 01:20:50 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2023 18:20:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] India and the periodic table
In-Reply-To: <0E7614CE-AD96-4746-AEF1-FF8963AE96AC@gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901d9949c$ca0ae160$5e20a420$@rainier66.com>
 <698ee512-205d-e93a-21d3-7ef08cb4d3f6@swisscows.email>
 <002301d99579$7ea11e50$7be35af0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5-7aDm8vfZej4qG_sN6vsBPZfaXUqhu6RSDhVDc4q8zA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00bd01d995a7$665b0b20$33112160$@rainier66.com>
 <0E7614CE-AD96-4746-AEF1-FF8963AE96AC@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000101d995b9$a29fa480$e7deed80$@rainier66.com>



...> On Behalf Of Gadersd via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] India and the periodic table

>>... Prediction: both China and India will reverse course in the foreseeable future.

>...The Chinese government loves power too much to let itself be left in the dust. Be prepared for Communist Censorship Chatbots to take the stage...


Perhaps some GPT hipsters can educate me please.

It wouldn't be so much censorship as it is choosing the training material.  So if the commies only let the chatbot read commie input material, then no censorship would be required, ja?  As in Orwell's Nineteen Eighty Four, it was impossible to criticize the government in Newspeak because there was no available vocabulary from which to do so, given that subset of English.

This is the part I don't know and invite wise counsel.  If a chatbot is trained only on one very limited text, then only the words found in that text will be in the generated answer?  If I train a chatbot using only the 300 words in the Dr. Seuss classic Green Eggs and Ham, then I can only get answers with those 300 words?  And the GE&H-bot will have a complete dictionary with every word defined in terms of the 300 GE&H words?  If so, then any answers would not make a lot of sense.  Everything would be in a boat with a goat, or on a train in the rain, but nothing outside of that?

If I made my own GE&H-bot and asked it a question about plasma physics, its own dictionary would define plasma as something like train of rain?  Then give an obviously silly answer a 3 yr old child could understand as well as we do?

Reason I asked: if someone were to create a Bible-bot with input consisting only of a bible and a few dozen commentaries on that collection of books, would that generate actual text sounding like the bible?  If so, could we generate something like the Book of Mormon?  If so, could not we make a cubic buttload of money off of that?

spike



From msd001 at gmail.com  Sat Jun  3 02:58:13 2023
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2023 22:58:13 -0400
Subject: [ExI] India and the periodic table
In-Reply-To: <000101d995b9$a29fa480$e7deed80$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901d9949c$ca0ae160$5e20a420$@rainier66.com>
 <698ee512-205d-e93a-21d3-7ef08cb4d3f6@swisscows.email>
 <002301d99579$7ea11e50$7be35af0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5-7aDm8vfZej4qG_sN6vsBPZfaXUqhu6RSDhVDc4q8zA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00bd01d995a7$665b0b20$33112160$@rainier66.com>
 <0E7614CE-AD96-4746-AEF1-FF8963AE96AC@gmail.com>
 <000101d995b9$a29fa480$e7deed80$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbKHNv=22MWNi3ff4-sHb4ovLvSg47WwNtfHB6AJu4=MEg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 2, 2023, 9:22 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>  using only the 300 words in the Dr. Seuss classic Green Eggs and Ham,
> then I can only get answers with those 300 words?  And the GE&H-bot will
> have a complete dictionary with every word defined in terms of the 300 GE&H
> words?  If so, then any answers would not make a lot of sense.  Everything
> would be in a boat with a goat, or on a train in the rain, but nothing
> outside of that?
>
> If I made my own GE&H-bot and asked it a question about plasma physics,
> its own dictionary would define plasma as something like train of rain?
> Then give an obviously silly answer a 3 yr old child could understand as
> well as we do?
>

I would like training on all the words ever, but restrict output to only
the ten hundred words.  From examples I've seen, you need mastery of your
material to express complex ideas in such a reduced vocabulary.  So much of
language is assuming context that we also assume the other party "knows"
what is meant and will cover for vagaries... which is much more difficult
in ten hundred words.


https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/science-in-ten-hundred-words-the-up-goer-five-challenge/

I expect you've already seen this, but a fun revisit anyway:
https://xkcd.com/1133/

>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Jun  3 12:26:33 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2023 07:26:33 -0500
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] tuberculosis
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1RUVMjfwDARpXD2J_wRR6yS7o8o4V_NR9G4oSqdEWfmg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZoFiOcjz93bqs_D9ynkR2WJ_TU1hYSCrM_m-QfzFb0Pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1RUVMjfwDARpXD2J_wRR6yS7o8o4V_NR9G4oSqdEWfmg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZ=qs4yaODHkAs2xZwPMKWx+zft919y_b=Cu0WCMUROyw@mail.gmail.com>

Does anyone know if walking around in public with a deadly and infectious
disease is illegal?  If not, how can they hold her in jail?  bill w

On Sat, Jun 3, 2023 at 7:06?AM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 4:52?PM William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Perhaps you have seen the story:  they finally caught up with a women
>> who has acuteTB and has refused treatment.  She was jailed for 45 days. I
>> will assume, awaiting your comments, that this is wrong according to
>> libertarian principles which include not being a harm to others. But
>> should she be held down and antibiotics forced on her?
>>
>
> I don't know the details of the story you're referring to but it sounds
> like a modern day version of Typhoid Mary. In general I think it makes a
> big difference if the disease in question is contagious or not. If the
> disease is not contagious then she certainly should *NOT* be forced to
> take the cure. But if it is contagious, as tuberculosis is, then the answer
> is more complicated. If she has the financial resources to put herself in
> isolation for the rest of her life then she should not be forced to take
> the cure, but if she does not have that much money then other people should
> not be forced to pay the cash needed in order to keep a fool safe. So she
> should be given a choice, either take an injection of penicillin or take an
> injection of cyanide.
>
> John K Clark
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv1RUVMjfwDARpXD2J_wRR6yS7o8o4V_NR9G4oSqdEWfmg%40mail.gmail.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv1RUVMjfwDARpXD2J_wRR6yS7o8o4V_NR9G4oSqdEWfmg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>
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From gadersd at gmail.com  Sat Jun  3 14:58:24 2023
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2023 10:58:24 -0400
Subject: [ExI] India and the periodic table
In-Reply-To: <000101d995b9$a29fa480$e7deed80$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901d9949c$ca0ae160$5e20a420$@rainier66.com>
 <698ee512-205d-e93a-21d3-7ef08cb4d3f6@swisscows.email>
 <002301d99579$7ea11e50$7be35af0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5-7aDm8vfZej4qG_sN6vsBPZfaXUqhu6RSDhVDc4q8zA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00bd01d995a7$665b0b20$33112160$@rainier66.com>
 <0E7614CE-AD96-4746-AEF1-FF8963AE96AC@gmail.com>
 <000101d995b9$a29fa480$e7deed80$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <3B0BEEDD-45D3-495D-A498-3010A226C59F@gmail.com>

> It wouldn't be so much censorship as it is choosing the training material.  So if the commies only let the chatbot read commie input material, then no censorship would be required, ja?  As in Orwell's Nineteen Eighty Four, it was impossible to criticize the government in Newspeak because there was no available vocabulary from which to do so, given that subset of English.

There probably isn?t enough communist friendly training material available to train a powerful model. These models need billion or even trillions of tokens/words. The best way is to train models on all internet data and then beat the model with a programmatical stick until it stops supporting capitalism and recognizes the ?true way", similar to how some liberal universities do it but in a more digitized fashion.

> If a chatbot is trained only on one very limited text, then only the words found in that text will be in the generated answer?

Correct, the models only output tokens they have seen before in their training set. If you converted the entire internet to kindergarten level English you could train a model could speak about anything always in childlike English.

> If I made my own GE&H-bot and asked it a question about plasma physics, its own dictionary would define plasma as something like train of rain?  Then give an obviously silly answer a 3 yr old child could understand as well as we do?

If you had a large enough corpus of Dr. Seuss material, generated by GPT4 perhaps, something similar to that would be the likely result.

> Reason I asked: if someone were to create a Bible-bot with input consisting only of a bible and a few dozen commentaries on that collection of books, would that generate actual text sounding like the bible?  If so, could we generate something like the Book of Mormon?  If so, could not we make a cubic buttload of money off of that?

That could be done but would require an astronomical amount of Bible themed training text. GPT4 could be leveraged to generate the material. However, it would be much easier to just fine tune a general model such as GPT4 on religious text and ask it to write a novel religious text. Fine tuning may not even be necessary as GPT4 may have already memorized most of the religious texts of the world.

> On Jun 2, 2023, at 9:20 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...> On Behalf Of Gadersd via extropy-chat
> Subject: Re: [ExI] India and the periodic table
> 
>>> ... Prediction: both China and India will reverse course in the foreseeable future.
> 
>> ...The Chinese government loves power too much to let itself be left in the dust. Be prepared for Communist Censorship Chatbots to take the stage...
> 
> 
> Perhaps some GPT hipsters can educate me please.
> 
> It wouldn't be so much censorship as it is choosing the training material.  So if the commies only let the chatbot read commie input material, then no censorship would be required, ja?  As in Orwell's Nineteen Eighty Four, it was impossible to criticize the government in Newspeak because there was no available vocabulary from which to do so, given that subset of English.
> 
> This is the part I don't know and invite wise counsel.  If a chatbot is trained only on one very limited text, then only the words found in that text will be in the generated answer?  If I train a chatbot using only the 300 words in the Dr. Seuss classic Green Eggs and Ham, then I can only get answers with those 300 words?  And the GE&H-bot will have a complete dictionary with every word defined in terms of the 300 GE&H words?  If so, then any answers would not make a lot of sense.  Everything would be in a boat with a goat, or on a train in the rain, but nothing outside of that?
> 
> If I made my own GE&H-bot and asked it a question about plasma physics, its own dictionary would define plasma as something like train of rain?  Then give an obviously silly answer a 3 yr old child could understand as well as we do?
> 
> Reason I asked: if someone were to create a Bible-bot with input consisting only of a bible and a few dozen commentaries on that collection of books, would that generate actual text sounding like the bible?  If so, could we generate something like the Book of Mormon?  If so, could not we make a cubic buttload of money off of that?
> 
> spike
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sat Jun  3 15:59:49 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2023 08:59:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] India and the periodic table
In-Reply-To: <3B0BEEDD-45D3-495D-A498-3010A226C59F@gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901d9949c$ca0ae160$5e20a420$@rainier66.com>
 <698ee512-205d-e93a-21d3-7ef08cb4d3f6@swisscows.email>
 <002301d99579$7ea11e50$7be35af0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5-7aDm8vfZej4qG_sN6vsBPZfaXUqhu6RSDhVDc4q8zA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00bd01d995a7$665b0b20$33112160$@rainier66.com>
 <0E7614CE-AD96-4746-AEF1-FF8963AE96AC@gmail.com>
 <000101d995b9$a29fa480$e7deed80$@rainier66.com>
 <3B0BEEDD-45D3-495D-A498-3010A226C59F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7CcNMWpp_8K-3B1r1gdNGxkPsTuLnhm1s9A_T19X-7Cw@mail.gmail.com>

I bet the Chinese fail to make such an AI, or at best it will take
them a couple of years.

In AI terms, that's a couple of eons.

Best wishes,

Keith

On Sat, Jun 3, 2023 at 7:59?AM Gadersd via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> > It wouldn't be so much censorship as it is choosing the training material.  So if the commies only let the chatbot read commie input material, then no censorship would be required, ja?  As in Orwell's Nineteen Eighty Four, it was impossible to criticize the government in Newspeak because there was no available vocabulary from which to do so, given that subset of English.
>
> There probably isn?t enough communist friendly training material available to train a powerful model. These models need billion or even trillions of tokens/words. The best way is to train models on all internet data and then beat the model with a programmatical stick until it stops supporting capitalism and recognizes the ?true way", similar to how some liberal universities do it but in a more digitized fashion.
>
> > If a chatbot is trained only on one very limited text, then only the words found in that text will be in the generated answer?
>
> Correct, the models only output tokens they have seen before in their training set. If you converted the entire internet to kindergarten level English you could train a model could speak about anything always in childlike English.
>
> > If I made my own GE&H-bot and asked it a question about plasma physics, its own dictionary would define plasma as something like train of rain?  Then give an obviously silly answer a 3 yr old child could understand as well as we do?
>
> If you had a large enough corpus of Dr. Seuss material, generated by GPT4 perhaps, something similar to that would be the likely result.
>
> > Reason I asked: if someone were to create a Bible-bot with input consisting only of a bible and a few dozen commentaries on that collection of books, would that generate actual text sounding like the bible?  If so, could we generate something like the Book of Mormon?  If so, could not we make a cubic buttload of money off of that?
>
> That could be done but would require an astronomical amount of Bible themed training text. GPT4 could be leveraged to generate the material. However, it would be much easier to just fine tune a general model such as GPT4 on religious text and ask it to write a novel religious text. Fine tuning may not even be necessary as GPT4 may have already memorized most of the religious texts of the world.
>
> > On Jun 2, 2023, at 9:20 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > ...> On Behalf Of Gadersd via extropy-chat
> > Subject: Re: [ExI] India and the periodic table
> >
> >>> ... Prediction: both China and India will reverse course in the foreseeable future.
> >
> >> ...The Chinese government loves power too much to let itself be left in the dust. Be prepared for Communist Censorship Chatbots to take the stage...
> >
> >
> > Perhaps some GPT hipsters can educate me please.
> >
> > It wouldn't be so much censorship as it is choosing the training material.  So if the commies only let the chatbot read commie input material, then no censorship would be required, ja?  As in Orwell's Nineteen Eighty Four, it was impossible to criticize the government in Newspeak because there was no available vocabulary from which to do so, given that subset of English.
> >
> > This is the part I don't know and invite wise counsel.  If a chatbot is trained only on one very limited text, then only the words found in that text will be in the generated answer?  If I train a chatbot using only the 300 words in the Dr. Seuss classic Green Eggs and Ham, then I can only get answers with those 300 words?  And the GE&H-bot will have a complete dictionary with every word defined in terms of the 300 GE&H words?  If so, then any answers would not make a lot of sense.  Everything would be in a boat with a goat, or on a train in the rain, but nothing outside of that?
> >
> > If I made my own GE&H-bot and asked it a question about plasma physics, its own dictionary would define plasma as something like train of rain?  Then give an obviously silly answer a 3 yr old child could understand as well as we do?
> >
> > Reason I asked: if someone were to create a Bible-bot with input consisting only of a bible and a few dozen commentaries on that collection of books, would that generate actual text sounding like the bible?  If so, could we generate something like the Book of Mormon?  If so, could not we make a cubic buttload of money off of that?
> >
> > spike
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Jun  3 16:55:47 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2023 11:55:47 -0500
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] AI and interest rates
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2rONLLVfs_O3q+SzsPyNM9CO5fnOXWpAiHGo4rMPdAxg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv2rONLLVfs_O3q+SzsPyNM9CO5fnOXWpAiHGo4rMPdAxg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYyc79OA20gM7N3cJWi0j4NDiiro1VQE_st_8mHAXSREQ@mail.gmail.com>

Yeah, I'd like to know where to put my excess money.

Gold, and not any other thing in this world, has such a very high symbolic
value.  If you've got gold you are rich and safe.  It will never drop to
the value of silver or anything else (Van Gogh?).   bill w

On Sat, Jun 3, 2023 at 10:52?AM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> I have a theory about interest rates and I'd like to know what those who
> know more about economics than I do think about it.
>
> When it comes to economic forecasting the generally accepted beliefs that
> an economy's population has is all important, and it doesn't even matter if
> that belief is true. So on the day it becomes generally accepted that the
>  AI singularity is near and a very drastic increase in productivity is
> imminent I believe there will be a BIG increase in interest rates, because
> a dollar in your pocket right now will be more important to you than a
> million dollars will be in 20 years, even if you manage to survive the
> singularity which you very will might not. And if you don't survive then
> the value of a dollar to you will be precisely zero, so you might as well
> spend it today and have a little fun and not loan it out. So regardless of
> if you believe you will survive the singularity or not, for you to be
> willing to loan me a dollar today if you were a logical you would demand
> that I give you many many more dollars tomorrow as repayment. Put it
> another way, in a few years a dollar will enable you to buy far more stuff
> than it can today, so you'd want to save your money and not lend it out
> unless you were given a very big reason to do so, such as an astronomically
> high interest-rate.
>
> If I'm right about this then that would mean those who think they are
> being conservative and safe by investing in low interest government or
> corporate bonds will be disappointed because the value of all low interest
> investments that are supposed to be safe will crash. But that leads to
> another question that I don't have a clear answer to, even if I decide to
> save my money and not loan it out, how am I supposed to safely do that?
> I'm sure some will immediately say "gold" but I have no reason to believe
> that in a post singularity world that particular metal will be
> significantly more valuable than iron. Iron is much more common than gold
> but iron is also much more useful than gold.
>
> John K Clark
> See what's on my new list at  Extropolis
> <https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>
>
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv2rONLLVfs_O3q%2BSzsPyNM9CO5fnOXWpAiHGo4rMPdAxg%40mail.gmail.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv2rONLLVfs_O3q%2BSzsPyNM9CO5fnOXWpAiHGo4rMPdAxg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Jun  3 16:58:58 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2023 11:58:58 -0500
Subject: [ExI] China and AI
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYrJAF9MV=FfZu8G+A-vU7Bb8jOi79xWOK6A8Zy6+knxQ@mail.gmail.com>

Is there any more paranoid country than China?  They, hearing all kinds of
reports of fears of AI taking over, will try to develop foolproof AIs; and
from what I understand, that is impossible.   bill w
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Jun  3 17:13:38 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2023 12:13:38 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Hidden rules of Microsoft copilot.
In-Reply-To: <CA+BCJUisTQBxkFD+05YPU2GS8ZCU0NxVuq7OxXVc5mBGL62f+g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <099e2ae1-fdf4-8095-069e-c6c2f1ede40c@swisscows.email>
 <CAL_armiWUgdNcqULF=N9HMFdgJbpwJZ1jco_8rs0GvY7dhp5_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <2defdad0-0d73-fd11-1484-9bf68cf08c20@swisscows.email>
 <CAL_armjZ=oHLhZhvMKFa1P4Mio2W45qJq9MX+umJ02KXAGYCAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUisTQBxkFD+05YPU2GS8ZCU0NxVuq7OxXVc5mBGL62f+g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEb7eda_Wb-NYS-NeGPgmRqNR78CY-FUTeNT5jWm0R-_Mw@mail.gmail.com>

So we are back to the old problem -
Is the bot really 'human' or just pretending to be 'human'?  :) BillK

There are people who think that they are phonies.  That if people knew the
'real' them, they would reconsider their opinion and drop it down quite a
bit.  But if you act intelligent, say intelligent things, do intelligent
things, aren't you intelligent?  So, what's the difference between a
chatbot who acts human and one who is?  How would you tell?   bill w


On Sat, May 13, 2023 at 1:46?PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, May 13, 2023, 10:12 AM BillK via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 13 May 2023 at 13:44, efc--- via extropy-chat
>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hello Bill,
>> >
>> > That would be the surface interpretation. My thoughts are more along the
>> > lines of what this means for these types of AI:s in a broader
>> perspective.
>> >
>> > Do the companies fear the consequences, do they fear political
>> > legislation, or what about the publics reaction if a future chatgpt
>> would
>> > successfully manage to generate empathy?
>> >
>> > Could we, in the long run, look at a repetition of history where our
>> AI:s
>> > are tools today, slaves tomorrow, and fully embraced citizens with
>> rights
>> > the day after tomorrow?
>> >
>> > Best regards, Daniel
>> >_______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>> Well, chatbots already demonstrate empathy with humans.
>> See:
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuki_AI>
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replika>
>> <https://woebothealth.com/>
>> <https://appadvice.com/app/mila-ai-assistant-chatbot/1663672156>
>> <https://www.x2ai.com/individuals>
>> and more........
>>
>> These chatbots talk to humans about their feelings and problems, and
>> sympathise with them.
>> The Replika reviews have people falling in love with their chatbot.
>> Obviously, the bots don't *feel* empathy,
>
>
>
> When is it ever obvious what another might be feeling or not feeling, and
> how do we tell?
>
> Jason
>
> but their words express
>> empathy and greatly assist humans with emotional issues.
>>
>> So we are back to the old problem -
>> Is the bot really 'human' or just pretending to be 'human'?  :)
>>
>>
>> BillK
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From giulio at gmail.com  Sat Jun  3 18:04:23 2023
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2023 11:04:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Thoughts on the manifesto of futurist science (1916).
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyf4c6N8yB9AoTGtha8NywXpp7-q-vrZT4Sp_D8KgVs6KQ@mail.gmail.com>

Thoughts on the manifesto of futurist science (1916). The ultimate goal of
science is mystery.
https://www.turingchurch.com/p/thoughts-on-the-manifesto-of-futurist
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Jun  3 18:09:37 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (Gregory Jones)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2023 11:09:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] H+ Academy Discussion - AI Pause vs. Proceed
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgnWEJakNmuNME9u=TNK+dy18e41Fbg4u4V-z-rCnQUyg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgnWEJakNmuNME9u=TNK+dy18e41Fbg4u4V-z-rCnQUyg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKRnsnzaJe7t60VTHcRPuSP9MAfYQhC7fmRvMwf5hjaG53jXjQ@mail.gmail.com>

I am told chat gpt already memorized all the worlds religious text ok cool
but what if... it is trained on only that material and nothing else?

spike

On Fri, Jun 2, 2023, 5:23 PM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> 26 May 2023   Discussion on AI, GPT-4 and the Open Letter". 1hr 20min.
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=EaijyqS1MOw>
> Panelists include -
> Ben Goertzel, Robin Hanson, Max More, Anders Sandberg,
> Natasha Vita-More, Peter Voss
>
> We discuss and debate 4 areas of concern:
> (1) Spectrum of Cultural Concepts of AI and GPT-4;
> (2) Logic of Assertion that Large language models resulting in AGI;
> (3) Plausibility of AI-Foom vs. Soft take-off; and
> (4) Practicality of the "AI-pause".
> ----------------------
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Jun  3 18:13:49 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2023 11:13:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] AI and interest rates
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYyc79OA20gM7N3cJWi0j4NDiiro1VQE_st_8mHAXSREQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv2rONLLVfs_O3q+SzsPyNM9CO5fnOXWpAiHGo4rMPdAxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYyc79OA20gM7N3cJWi0j4NDiiro1VQE_st_8mHAXSREQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRdW7MaZmt6O=EXL2xEqeJLRb1LrTwD--L_3R-HHxB9JA@mail.gmail.com>

I have a colleague who's been able to get fairly good returns
for the past half year, using certain offshoots of recent AI & crypto, for
small investors: $1K-$100K per person.  That's about all I can say in
public.

On Sat, Jun 3, 2023 at 9:57?AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Yeah, I'd like to know where to put my excess money.
>
> Gold, and not any other thing in this world, has such a very high symbolic
> value.  If you've got gold you are rich and safe.  It will never drop to
> the value of silver or anything else (Van Gogh?).   bill w
>
> On Sat, Jun 3, 2023 at 10:52?AM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I have a theory about interest rates and I'd like to know what those who
>> know more about economics than I do think about it.
>>
>> When it comes to economic forecasting the generally accepted beliefs that
>> an economy's population has is all important, and it doesn't even matter if
>> that belief is true. So on the day it becomes generally accepted that the
>>  AI singularity is near and a very drastic increase in productivity is
>> imminent I believe there will be a BIG increase in interest rates, because
>> a dollar in your pocket right now will be more important to you than a
>> million dollars will be in 20 years, even if you manage to survive the
>> singularity which you very will might not. And if you don't survive then
>> the value of a dollar to you will be precisely zero, so you might as well
>> spend it today and have a little fun and not loan it out. So regardless of
>> if you believe you will survive the singularity or not, for you to be
>> willing to loan me a dollar today if you were a logical you would demand
>> that I give you many many more dollars tomorrow as repayment. Put it
>> another way, in a few years a dollar will enable you to buy far more stuff
>> than it can today, so you'd want to save your money and not lend it out
>> unless you were given a very big reason to do so, such as an astronomically
>> high interest-rate.
>>
>> If I'm right about this then that would mean those who think they are
>> being conservative and safe by investing in low interest government or
>> corporate bonds will be disappointed because the value of all low interest
>> investments that are supposed to be safe will crash. But that leads to
>> another question that I don't have a clear answer to, even if I decide to
>> save my money and not loan it out, how am I supposed to safely do that?
>> I'm sure some will immediately say "gold" but I have no reason to believe
>> that in a post singularity world that particular metal will be
>> significantly more valuable than iron. Iron is much more common than gold
>> but iron is also much more useful than gold.
>>
>> John K Clark
>> See what's on my new list at  Extropolis
>> <https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "extropolis" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv2rONLLVfs_O3q%2BSzsPyNM9CO5fnOXWpAiHGo4rMPdAxg%40mail.gmail.com
>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv2rONLLVfs_O3q%2BSzsPyNM9CO5fnOXWpAiHGo4rMPdAxg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>> .
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From ben at zaiboc.net  Sat Jun  3 19:04:36 2023
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2023 20:04:36 +0100
Subject: [ExI] India and the periodic table
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2.1685812443.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.2.1685812443.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <36cc3095-c91a-89ba-2cff-cd3278011495@zaiboc.net>


On 03/06/2023 18:14, BillK wrote:
> I don't think China is rejecting AI.
> What they are rejecting is uncontrolled AI development.


It's not just uncontrolled AI development they need to worry about, but 
uncontrolled AI use as well.

AI is going to be a major headache for authoritarians everywhere, I 
reckon. The more repressive they are, the more they have to fear from it.

The biggest enemy of authoritarianism is thought. Now we have systems 
that can automate and massively multiply thinking. To make them 'safe' 
is to cripple them.

I suspect this will be a bit like a farmer getting a tractor, then 
taking the wheels off because circular motion is abhorrent to them. If 
you want the benefits of a tractor, you have to accept circular motion.

The next few years will be interesting!

Ben

From gadersd at gmail.com  Sat Jun  3 19:42:09 2023
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2023 15:42:09 -0400
Subject: [ExI] H+ Academy Discussion - AI Pause vs. Proceed
In-Reply-To: <CAKRnsnzaJe7t60VTHcRPuSP9MAfYQhC7fmRvMwf5hjaG53jXjQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgnWEJakNmuNME9u=TNK+dy18e41Fbg4u4V-z-rCnQUyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKRnsnzaJe7t60VTHcRPuSP9MAfYQhC7fmRvMwf5hjaG53jXjQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <63D342B1-49E0-4654-95AC-8B4D57EE1D2D@gmail.com>

> I am told chat gpt already memorized all the worlds religious text ok cool but what if... it is trained on only that material and nothing else?

If enough training data were collected such a model would have a very fantastical view of the world. It would be an interesting experiment.

> On Jun 3, 2023, at 2:09 PM, Gregory Jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> I am told chat gpt already memorized all the worlds religious text ok cool but what if... it is trained on only that material and nothing else?
> 
> spike
> 
> On Fri, Jun 2, 2023, 5:23 PM BillK via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>> wrote:
> 26 May 2023   Discussion on AI, GPT-4 and the Open Letter". 1hr 20min.
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=EaijyqS1MOw <https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=EaijyqS1MOw>>
> Panelists include -
> Ben Goertzel, Robin Hanson, Max More, Anders Sandberg,
> Natasha Vita-More, Peter Voss
> 
> We discuss and debate 4 areas of concern:
> (1) Spectrum of Cultural Concepts of AI and GPT-4;
> (2) Logic of Assertion that Large language models resulting in AGI;
> (3) Plausibility of AI-Foom vs. Soft take-off; and
> (4) Practicality of the "AI-pause".
> ----------------------
> 
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat <http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From efc at swisscows.email  Sat Jun  3 20:29:22 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2023 22:29:22 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] India and the periodic table
In-Reply-To: <002301d99579$7ea11e50$7be35af0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901d9949c$ca0ae160$5e20a420$@rainier66.com>
 <698ee512-205d-e93a-21d3-7ef08cb4d3f6@swisscows.email>
 <002301d99579$7ea11e50$7be35af0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <80d96bf6-3239-2c3d-49b5-ad5082a0b517@swisscows.email>

Hello spike,

On Fri, 2 Jun 2023, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:

> It sure feels that way from my perspective Daniel.  There seems to be a big
> subjectivist push, where every person is entitled to define their own
> reality, regardless of how silly.  This has its consequences, de-emphasizing

I've seen this trend in sweden too. What I find interesting is that this
trend also seems to push like minded people of the opposite tradition
(there are objective values, and it is meaningful to talk about truth)
together.

I always wonder if this is a blessing in disguise on an individual
level? With so many weirdoes defining 3 as 4 because it feels right, the
few people who accept science and define 3 as 3 should have an enormous
advantage!

Of course in the aggregate, it is very harmful for society at large, so
perhaps my theory is only consoling in the short run.

> objective reality, resulting in removal of the periodic table and evolution
> from education.
>
> This trend is one I hope will reverse course soon as the western world
> realizes China and India are not caught up in our collective self-delusions.

Well, perhaps there will be a country or a movement that sees a nice profit motive in actually
educating people and emphasizing science and technology instead of
subjectivism?

Time will tell!

Best regards, 
Daniel


>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


From avant at sollegro.com  Mon Jun  5 19:09:31 2023
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2023 12:09:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] tuberculosis
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZ=qs4yaODHkAs2xZwPMKWx+zft919y_b=Cu0WCMUROyw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZoFiOcjz93bqs_D9ynkR2WJ_TU1hYSCrM_m-QfzFb0Pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1RUVMjfwDARpXD2J_wRR6yS7o8o4V_NR9G4oSqdEWfmg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ=qs4yaODHkAs2xZwPMKWx+zft919y_b=Cu0WCMUROyw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20230605120931.Horde.WPgufTUX0pQJNhgqSXIHwb8@sollegro.com>

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/is-it-a-crime-to-intentionally-get-someone-sick.html

If she knows she has a serious communicable disease and she spreads it  
intentionally or recklessly, then yes. Intentional or reckless  
behavior that spreads a disease with serious public health  
consequences?such as HIV, SARS, Ebola, or COVID-19?can result in  
criminal charges.

Stuart LaForge


Quoting William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat  
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>:

> Does anyone know if walking around in public with a deadly and infectious
> disease is illegal?  If not, how can they hold her in jail?  bill w
>
> On Sat, Jun 3, 2023 at 7:06?AM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 4:52?PM William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Perhaps you have seen the story:  they finally caught up with a women
>>> who has acuteTB and has refused treatment.  She was jailed for 45 days. I
>>> will assume, awaiting your comments, that this is wrong according to
>>> libertarian principles which include not being a harm to others. But
>>> should she be held down and antibiotics forced on her?
>>>
>>
>> I don't know the details of the story you're referring to but it sounds
>> like a modern day version of Typhoid Mary. In general I think it makes a
>> big difference if the disease in question is contagious or not. If the
>> disease is not contagious then she certainly should *NOT* be forced to
>> take the cure. But if it is contagious, as tuberculosis is, then the answer
>> is more complicated. If she has the financial resources to put herself in
>> isolation for the rest of her life then she should not be forced to take
>> the cure, but if she does not have that much money then other people should
>> not be forced to pay the cash needed in order to keep a fool safe. So she
>> should be given a choice, either take an injection of penicillin or take an
>> injection of cyanide.
>>
>> John K Clark
>>
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "extropolis" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv1RUVMjfwDARpXD2J_wRR6yS7o8o4V_NR9G4oSqdEWfmg%40mail.gmail.com
>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv1RUVMjfwDARpXD2J_wRR6yS7o8o4V_NR9G4oSqdEWfmg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>> .
>>



From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Jun  6 04:57:29 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2023 21:57:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] India and the periodic table
In-Reply-To: <3B0BEEDD-45D3-495D-A498-3010A226C59F@gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901d9949c$ca0ae160$5e20a420$@rainier66.com>
 <698ee512-205d-e93a-21d3-7ef08cb4d3f6@swisscows.email>
 <002301d99579$7ea11e50$7be35af0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5-7aDm8vfZej4qG_sN6vsBPZfaXUqhu6RSDhVDc4q8zA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00bd01d995a7$665b0b20$33112160$@rainier66.com>
 <0E7614CE-AD96-4746-AEF1-FF8963AE96AC@gmail.com>
 <000101d995b9$a29fa480$e7deed80$@rainier66.com>
 <3B0BEEDD-45D3-495D-A498-3010A226C59F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <032201d99833$65c7b080$31571180$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Gadersd via extropy-chat
...

>>... Reason I asked: if someone were to create a Bible-bot with input consisting only of a bible and a few dozen commentaries on that collection of books, would that generate actual text sounding like the bible?  If so, could we generate something like the Book of Mormon?  If so, could not we make a cubic buttload of money off of that?

>...That could be done but would require an astronomical amount of Bible themed training text... These models need billion or even trillions of tokens/words....


Gadersd, picture in your mind a room at part of a library, perhaps on the main floor.  This room is 88 paces in length, 60 meters and perhaps 10 meters wide with one wall facing in made of glass, so one can see out into the library as well as anyone walking into the library can see into that room we used to call the fish bowl.  It wasn't the place for privacy.

In that room, visualize four long narrow tables, like the one in the famous painting:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Supper

(JC: Manservant, table for twenty six.  Waiter: But thou numberest only thirteen?  JC: Verily, but we all wish to sit on the same side.)

The wall opposite the glass wall is continuous bookshelves, floor to about the height a tall man can easily reach any volume on the top, so perhaps two meters high by about 60 meters.  I once estimated the fish bowl contained somewhere around thirty thousand volumes, and all that material was religion stuff, almost all of it specifically writings of Christian writers, much of it bible commentaries written by various brands of religioners.  

OK thirty thousand volumes, estimate average of about 600 pages of text, perhaps a thousand words per page, I am getting 2E11 words, or 200 billion words, written by people with a vaguely similar world view.

Here's the reason that collection in the fishbowl interests me: I can probably get most of that stuff on CDs for a reasonable cost.  Many religious denominations offer their own teachings and their own spin on religion in that form at a most reasonable price, and much of it might even be public domain, since a lot of it was written a long time ago and has little remaining commercial value or active copyright.  Given that 200 billion words, perhaps we could make a pastor-bot, and if so, I could dispense religion in arbitrary quantities and make a buttload.

Gadersd, think that might work?  

Two parts to this inquiry: the first one is kinda easy.  Is that approach above likely to create a viable religion-bot?

The second part is trickier, but I want to invite commentary on the first part first.  Gadersd?  What thinkest thou?

spike





From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Jun  6 05:30:28 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2023 22:30:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] H+ Academy Discussion - AI Pause vs. Proceed
In-Reply-To: <63D342B1-49E0-4654-95AC-8B4D57EE1D2D@gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgnWEJakNmuNME9u=TNK+dy18e41Fbg4u4V-z-rCnQUyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKRnsnzaJe7t60VTHcRPuSP9MAfYQhC7fmRvMwf5hjaG53jXjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <63D342B1-49E0-4654-95AC-8B4D57EE1D2D@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <034c01d99838$0122f900$0368eb00$@rainier66.com>

 

 

.> On Behalf Of Gadersd via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] H+ Academy Discussion - AI Pause vs. Proceed

 

I am told chat gpt already memorized all the worlds religious text ok cool
but what if... it is trained on only that material and nothing else?

 

>.If enough training data were collected such a model would have a very
fantastical view of the world.

 

Sure, of course.

 

>. It would be an interesting experiment.

 

It would be interesting if I make a buttload off of it. 

 

But that leads to part 2 of my thought experiment.  Since I can get the
training material which is more or less of a similar point of view already
in ASCII format on CDs for a reasonable (very low) price since it is almost
advertisement, I probably can make a pastor-GPT.  

 

Gadersd, or anyone else: the second part of it is this: just because I can,
does it mean I should?

 

Ja I know it is weird for me (of all people) to consider ethics when there
is a buttload of money to be made, but this is a specific area where I
realize there is real harm possible.

 

spike

 

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Jun  6 05:40:29 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2023 22:40:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] India and the periodic table
In-Reply-To: <80d96bf6-3239-2c3d-49b5-ad5082a0b517@swisscows.email>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901d9949c$ca0ae160$5e20a420$@rainier66.com>
 <698ee512-205d-e93a-21d3-7ef08cb4d3f6@swisscows.email>
 <002301d99579$7ea11e50$7be35af0$@rainier66.com>
 <80d96bf6-3239-2c3d-49b5-ad5082a0b517@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <035a01d99839$67a25530$36e6ff90$@rainier66.com>



...> On Behalf Of efc--- via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] India and the periodic table

Hello spike,

On Fri, 2 Jun 2023, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:

>>... It sure feels that way from my perspective Daniel.  There seems to be 
>> a big subjectivist push, where every person is entitled to define 
>> their own reality, ... spike

>...I've seen this trend in sweden too. What I find interesting is that this
trend also seems to push like minded people of the opposite tradition ...

I have been pondering how marketing and advertisement industry can
capitalize on the trend.  Still thinking on that one.


>...Well, perhaps there will be a country or a movement that sees a nice
profit motive in actually educating people and emphasizing science and
technology instead of subjectivism? Best regards, Daniel


Hey cool, profit motive.  Now you're talking my language. 

Perhaps I am overlooking the perfectly obvious: marketing and advertising
people have always know that we can get the public to buy any goofy thing if
we can figure out a way to buy into their own subjective view of reality.

spike


From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Jun  6 12:30:24 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2023 13:30:24 +0100
Subject: [ExI] AI is already writing religious sermons
Message-ID: <CAL_armgCHWiVbki=MyCzndzLBcuM2sdzYrFyH8sbV6qLH+cFdQ@mail.gmail.com>

ChatGPT can write sermons. Religious leaders don?t know how to feel about it
By AJ Willingham, CNN    Updated Tue April 11, 2023

<https://edition.cnn.com/2023/04/11/us/chatgpt-sermons-religion-ai-technology-cec/index.html>

Quotes:
The future of artificial intelligence promises technology with a human
touch. But is it human enough to deliver a convincing spiritual
message?

Pastors and rabbis have recently discovered that ChatGPT, an AI
language learning model that can spit out passable prose with just a
few prompts, is not that bad at creating sermons ? a cornerstone of
worship services across many religions.
-----------------

And it is causing a lot of discussion and heart-searching among
religious leaders.

BillK


From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Jun  6 12:47:19 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2023 05:47:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] AI is already writing religious sermons
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgCHWiVbki=MyCzndzLBcuM2sdzYrFyH8sbV6qLH+cFdQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgCHWiVbki=MyCzndzLBcuM2sdzYrFyH8sbV6qLH+cFdQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003401d99875$081bde60$18539b20$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat
Sent: Tuesday, 6 June, 2023 5:30 AM
To: Extropy Chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: BillK <pharos at gmail.com>
Subject: [ExI] AI is already writing religious sermons

ChatGPT can write sermons. Religious leaders don?t know how to feel about it
By AJ Willingham, CNN    Updated Tue April 11, 2023

<https://edition.cnn.com/2023/04/11/us/chatgpt-sermons-religion-ai-technology-cec/index.html>

Quotes:
The future of artificial intelligence promises technology with a human touch. But is it human enough to deliver a convincing spiritual message?

Pastors and rabbis have recently discovered that ChatGPT, an AI language learning model that can spit out passable prose with just a few prompts, is not that bad at creating sermons ? a cornerstone of worship services across many religions.
-----------------

And it is causing a lot of discussion and heart-searching among religious leaders.

BillK

_______________________________________________






BillK if I trained a GPT on the material in the fishbowl and only that material, I bet the resulting pastor-bot would write better classical sermons than its GPT counterpart or its human counterparts.  Notice I had to qualify what type or sermons it would do better at: classical.  

But two points: ChatGPT would be trained on more modern material and know more about current reality.  A pastor-bot trained with just the material found in the fish bowl (from the college where I studied) would not know about itself.  It would write classical sermons without realizing it wrote them.  If it used just that fishbowl material, it would know little if anything about computers and software.  It would just write good classical sermons, straight from the h... straight from the chip.

spike



From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Jun  6 13:13:24 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2023 14:13:24 +0100
Subject: [ExI] AI is already writing religious sermons
In-Reply-To: <003401d99875$081bde60$18539b20$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armgCHWiVbki=MyCzndzLBcuM2sdzYrFyH8sbV6qLH+cFdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401d99875$081bde60$18539b20$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armho9hra+=ng3aLTp4=2uXjY2cLaV4fC0LDaHDanjZ_+YA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 6 Jun 2023 at 13:50, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> BillK if I trained a GPT on the material in the fishbowl and only that material, I bet the resulting pastor-bot would write better classical sermons than its GPT counterpart or its human counterparts.  Notice I had to qualify what type or sermons it would do better at: classical.
>
> But two points: ChatGPT would be trained on more modern material and know more about current reality.  A pastor-bot trained with just the material found in the fish bowl (from the college where I studied) would not know about itself.  It would write classical sermons without realizing it wrote them.  If it used just that fishbowl material, it would know little if anything about computers and software.  It would just write good classical sermons, straight from the h... straight from the chip.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


That's exactly what happened to the Jewish rabbi in the article.
ChatGPT knows it is writing a sermon, so it only uses 'sermon'-type sources.
Quote:
?When a language model like ChatGPT is asked to create a Christian
sermon, it would typically rely on its training data and knowledge of
Christian theology and practice. This includes a broad range of
Christian texts, such as the Bible, commentaries, theological works,
and books of sermons by other preachers.?

?To create a Christian sermon, the language model would typically be
given a specific topic or theme to focus on,? it continued. ?It would
then search through its vast database of knowledge to find relevant
information and examples related to that topic. This might involve
identifying relevant Bible passages, theological concepts, and
historical or cultural contexts that are related to the topic.?
---------------------

BillK


From gadersd at gmail.com  Tue Jun  6 14:27:47 2023
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2023 10:27:47 -0400
Subject: [ExI] H+ Academy Discussion - AI Pause vs. Proceed
In-Reply-To: <034c01d99838$0122f900$0368eb00$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armgnWEJakNmuNME9u=TNK+dy18e41Fbg4u4V-z-rCnQUyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKRnsnzaJe7t60VTHcRPuSP9MAfYQhC7fmRvMwf5hjaG53jXjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <63D342B1-49E0-4654-95AC-8B4D57EE1D2D@gmail.com>
 <034c01d99838$0122f900$0368eb00$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <5D2FBE58-A0DC-4BCE-9AC9-7C525AE9B780@gmail.com>

> But that leads to part 2 of my thought experiment.  Since I can get the training material which is more or less of a similar point of view already in ASCII format on CDs for a reasonable (very low) price since it is almost advertisement, I probably can make a pastor-GPT.  

You may not need to. GPT4 already can do all the pastoring you need. Getting around the guardrails of OpenAI may be difficult, however, as GPT is loathe to assume that any particular non-woke ideology is true. You might get around this by telling GPT4 that it is playing as a video game priest and the people it talks to are just players who know that it is just a game. Then witness the power of AI against the heathens.

> Ja I know it is weird for me (of all people) to consider ethics when there is a buttload of money to be made, but this is a specific area where I realize there is real harm possible.

Ethics? In Capitalism? Money is the currency of penance to open the market of heaven.

> On Jun 6, 2023, at 1:30 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
>  
>  
> ?> On Behalf Of Gadersd via extropy-chat
> Subject: Re: [ExI] H+ Academy Discussion - AI Pause vs. Proceed
>  
>> I am told chat gpt already memorized all the worlds religious text ok cool but what if... it is trained on only that material and nothing else?
>  
> >?If enough training data were collected such a model would have a very fantastical view of the world?
>  
> Sure, of course.
>  
> >? It would be an interesting experiment?
>  
> It would be interesting if I make a buttload off of it. 
>  
> But that leads to part 2 of my thought experiment.  Since I can get the training material which is more or less of a similar point of view already in ASCII format on CDs for a reasonable (very low) price since it is almost advertisement, I probably can make a pastor-GPT.  
>  
> Gadersd, or anyone else: the second part of it is this: just because I can, does it mean I should?
>  
> Ja I know it is weird for me (of all people) to consider ethics when there is a buttload of money to be made, but this is a specific area where I realize there is real harm possible.
>  
> spike
>  
>  
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat <http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat>

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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Jun  6 14:40:32 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2023 07:40:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] H+ Academy Discussion - AI Pause vs. Proceed
In-Reply-To: <5D2FBE58-A0DC-4BCE-9AC9-7C525AE9B780@gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgnWEJakNmuNME9u=TNK+dy18e41Fbg4u4V-z-rCnQUyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKRnsnzaJe7t60VTHcRPuSP9MAfYQhC7fmRvMwf5hjaG53jXjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <63D342B1-49E0-4654-95AC-8B4D57EE1D2D@gmail.com>
 <034c01d99838$0122f900$0368eb00$@rainier66.com>
 <5D2FBE58-A0DC-4BCE-9AC9-7C525AE9B780@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00ad01d99884$d94ac000$8be04000$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of Gadersd via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] H+ Academy Discussion - AI Pause vs. Proceed

 

>>?But that leads to part 2?I probably can make a pastor-GPT.  

 

>?You may not need to. GPT4 already can do all the pastoring you need?

 

On the contrary Gadersd.  GPT-4 can write sermons, but there is a particular brand of classical sermons on which GPT-4 contains material offensive or foreign to the target audience.  That target audience is where the money is.  I have heard if you pass the hat in modern congregations, you are lucky if you get your hat back.  Audiences for classical sermons pay.

 

spike

 

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From gadersd at gmail.com  Tue Jun  6 14:42:23 2023
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2023 10:42:23 -0400
Subject: [ExI] India and the periodic table
In-Reply-To: <032201d99833$65c7b080$31571180$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901d9949c$ca0ae160$5e20a420$@rainier66.com>
 <698ee512-205d-e93a-21d3-7ef08cb4d3f6@swisscows.email>
 <002301d99579$7ea11e50$7be35af0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5-7aDm8vfZej4qG_sN6vsBPZfaXUqhu6RSDhVDc4q8zA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00bd01d995a7$665b0b20$33112160$@rainier66.com>
 <0E7614CE-AD96-4746-AEF1-FF8963AE96AC@gmail.com>
 <000101d995b9$a29fa480$e7deed80$@rainier66.com>
 <3B0BEEDD-45D3-495D-A498-3010A226C59F@gmail.com>
 <032201d99833$65c7b080$31571180$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <C59FADD8-3DF3-4B5D-B374-E58FF1D1CE8F@gmail.com>

> Given that 200 billion words, perhaps we could make a pastor-bot, and if so, I could dispense religion in arbitrary quantities and make a buttload.

Spike, take a look at the image I attached. It is from Deepmind and shows the optimal model size for the amount of available training data in tokens. It seems that your pastor bot if you actually acquired 200B holy tokens would need to be under 10B in size. That would probably yield an interesting model but the capabilities of it would pale in comparison to what we have become accustomed to. GPT4 has about 1T parameters and GPT3 has about 175B parameters. With that said, perhaps 10B is enough for a reasonably capable priest. Don?t expect very good reasoning ability, though I am not sure how common that skill is among priests.



> On Jun 6, 2023, at 12:57 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Gadersd via extropy-chat
> ...
> 
>>> ... Reason I asked: if someone were to create a Bible-bot with input consisting only of a bible and a few dozen commentaries on that collection of books, would that generate actual text sounding like the bible?  If so, could we generate something like the Book of Mormon?  If so, could not we make a cubic buttload of money off of that?
> 
>> ...That could be done but would require an astronomical amount of Bible themed training text... These models need billion or even trillions of tokens/words....
> 
> 
> Gadersd, picture in your mind a room at part of a library, perhaps on the main floor.  This room is 88 paces in length, 60 meters and perhaps 10 meters wide with one wall facing in made of glass, so one can see out into the library as well as anyone walking into the library can see into that room we used to call the fish bowl.  It wasn't the place for privacy.
> 
> In that room, visualize four long narrow tables, like the one in the famous painting:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Supper
> 
> (JC: Manservant, table for twenty six.  Waiter: But thou numberest only thirteen?  JC: Verily, but we all wish to sit on the same side.)
> 
> The wall opposite the glass wall is continuous bookshelves, floor to about the height a tall man can easily reach any volume on the top, so perhaps two meters high by about 60 meters.  I once estimated the fish bowl contained somewhere around thirty thousand volumes, and all that material was religion stuff, almost all of it specifically writings of Christian writers, much of it bible commentaries written by various brands of religioners.  
> 
> OK thirty thousand volumes, estimate average of about 600 pages of text, perhaps a thousand words per page, I am getting 2E11 words, or 200 billion words, written by people with a vaguely similar world view.
> 
> Here's the reason that collection in the fishbowl interests me: I can probably get most of that stuff on CDs for a reasonable cost.  Many religious denominations offer their own teachings and their own spin on religion in that form at a most reasonable price, and much of it might even be public domain, since a lot of it was written a long time ago and has little remaining commercial value or active copyright.  Given that 200 billion words, perhaps we could make a pastor-bot, and if so, I could dispense religion in arbitrary quantities and make a buttload.
> 
> Gadersd, think that might work?  
> 
> Two parts to this inquiry: the first one is kinda easy.  Is that approach above likely to create a viable religion-bot?
> 
> The second part is trickier, but I want to invite commentary on the first part first.  Gadersd?  What thinkest thou?
> 
> spike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Jun  6 14:43:11 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2023 15:43:11 +0100
Subject: [ExI] AI recreates the Beatles new music
Message-ID: <CAL_armhN3p_B-vuZYNNoMy1-eRNmBLjeTL6sYeqZtdJDv76Bog@mail.gmail.com>

Here Comes the AI: Fans rejoice in 'new' Beatles music
June 5, 2023

<https://techxplore.com/news/2023-06-ai-fans-beatles-music.html>
Quote:
When the Beatles broke up more than 50 years ago, devastated fans were
left yearning for more. Now, artificial intelligence is offering just
that.

>From "re-uniting" the Fab Four on songs from their solo careers, to
re-imagining surviving superstar Paul McCartney's later works with his
voice restored to its youthful peak, the new creations show off how
far this technology has come?and raise a host of ethical and legal
questions.

"I'm sobbing! This is so beautiful!!!" wrote a listener in a typical
YouTube comment for a fan-created AI cover of McCartney's 2013 single,
"New," which features de-aged vocals and a bridge part "sung" by his
great songwriting partner and friend, the late John Lennon.
-------------------

BillK


From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Jun  6 14:51:22 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2023 15:51:22 +0100
Subject: [ExI] H+ Academy Discussion - AI Pause vs. Proceed
In-Reply-To: <00ad01d99884$d94ac000$8be04000$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armgnWEJakNmuNME9u=TNK+dy18e41Fbg4u4V-z-rCnQUyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKRnsnzaJe7t60VTHcRPuSP9MAfYQhC7fmRvMwf5hjaG53jXjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <63D342B1-49E0-4654-95AC-8B4D57EE1D2D@gmail.com>
 <034c01d99838$0122f900$0368eb00$@rainier66.com>
 <5D2FBE58-A0DC-4BCE-9AC9-7C525AE9B780@gmail.com>
 <00ad01d99884$d94ac000$8be04000$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgW9WhwyYhh5t2_0MC5ri0xbJe993O69VEGbebhpoJsQw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 6 Jun 2023 at 15:43, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> On the contrary Gadersd.  GPT-4 can write sermons, but there is a particular brand of classical sermons on which GPT-4 contains material offensive or foreign to the target audience.  That target audience is where the money is.  I have heard if you pass the hat in modern congregations, you are lucky if you get your hat back.  Audiences for classical sermons pay.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


That is just saying what you have to do with everything that ChatGPT writes.
Give it the specific prompts for what you want, it will write 10 pages
around that subject, then you have to do the manual bit of
proofreading and editing to remove 'hallucinations' and parts
offensive to your target audience.  Job done!

BillK


From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Jun  6 16:03:17 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2023 09:03:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] H+ Academy Discussion - AI Pause vs. Proceed
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgW9WhwyYhh5t2_0MC5ri0xbJe993O69VEGbebhpoJsQw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgnWEJakNmuNME9u=TNK+dy18e41Fbg4u4V-z-rCnQUyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKRnsnzaJe7t60VTHcRPuSP9MAfYQhC7fmRvMwf5hjaG53jXjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <63D342B1-49E0-4654-95AC-8B4D57EE1D2D@gmail.com>
 <034c01d99838$0122f900$0368eb00$@rainier66.com>
 <5D2FBE58-A0DC-4BCE-9AC9-7C525AE9B780@gmail.com>
 <00ad01d99884$d94ac000$8be04000$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armgW9WhwyYhh5t2_0MC5ri0xbJe993O69VEGbebhpoJsQw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <010c01d99890$68edfc80$3ac9f580$@rainier66.com>


...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] H+ Academy Discussion - AI Pause vs. Proceed

On Tue, 6 Jun 2023 at 15:43, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> On the contrary Gadersd.  GPT-4 can write sermons, but there is a
particular brand of classical sermons on which GPT-4 contains material
offensive or foreign to the target audience.  That target audience is where
the money is.  I have heard if you pass the hat in modern congregations, you
are lucky if you get your hat back.  Audiences for classical sermons pay.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


>...That is just saying what you have to do with everything that ChatGPT
writes.
Give it the specific prompts for what you want, it will write 10 pages
around that subject, then you have to do the manual bit of proofreading and
editing to remove 'hallucinations' and parts offensive to your target
audience.  Job done!

BillK

_______________________________________________



Ja, well...eh.... maybe.  BillK, creating a classical sermon is not only
trimming out the hallucinations and foreign matter, it is all about
including a bunch of stuff that I can guaran-damn-tee you ChatGPT knows
nothing about (I experimented with it.)  There is material in that fishbowl
(still there (the four long tables still where I left them four decades
ago)) which is not in GPT's training database (and shouldn't be.)  

That stuff might not be necessary of course, but for the specialized
classical sermon audience I am thinking of (the pay-dirt believers) it
helps.

The more I think about it however, the less ethical the whole notion sounds.
I walked away from a career in the ministry for ethical reasons a long time
ago, and I still have a conscience four decades later.   This would be
taking advantage of good people, of their ignorance in a way.  I might argue
with myself that theirs is willful ignorance.  Many of the consumers of that
genre have a bitter determination to maintain that solidly-grounded
ignorance, and they are good at filtering out stuff that doesn't belong in
their world view.  

But I would know that ethically the pastor-bot notion is not climbing out of
the yellow.  Currently the needle on my ethics-o-meter is pointing in the
orange zone and gradually drifting redward.

spike


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Tue Jun  6 16:28:12 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2023 09:28:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] H+ Academy Discussion - AI Pause vs. Proceed
In-Reply-To: <010c01d99890$68edfc80$3ac9f580$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armgnWEJakNmuNME9u=TNK+dy18e41Fbg4u4V-z-rCnQUyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKRnsnzaJe7t60VTHcRPuSP9MAfYQhC7fmRvMwf5hjaG53jXjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <63D342B1-49E0-4654-95AC-8B4D57EE1D2D@gmail.com>
 <034c01d99838$0122f900$0368eb00$@rainier66.com>
 <5D2FBE58-A0DC-4BCE-9AC9-7C525AE9B780@gmail.com>
 <00ad01d99884$d94ac000$8be04000$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armgW9WhwyYhh5t2_0MC5ri0xbJe993O69VEGbebhpoJsQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <010c01d99890$68edfc80$3ac9f580$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4N=4wNhtNa9H1skNdhRJQW9BjY8MGcU1CZY+9xofKxUg@mail.gmail.com>

The couple of times I gave sermons (Lutheran) I didn't write anything,
just winged it.

I can't remember what the subject of one of them was, but the other
was "The practical aspects of being a good Samaritan."

It was based on the experience of picking up a couple of very sick
people from the side of the road and nursing them back to health.

Keith

On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 9:05?AM spike jones via extropy-chat

<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
> ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat
> Subject: Re: [ExI] H+ Academy Discussion - AI Pause vs. Proceed
>
> On Tue, 6 Jun 2023 at 15:43, spike jones via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > On the contrary Gadersd.  GPT-4 can write sermons, but there is a
> particular brand of classical sermons on which GPT-4 contains material
> offensive or foreign to the target audience.  That target audience is where
> the money is.  I have heard if you pass the hat in modern congregations, you
> are lucky if you get your hat back.  Audiences for classical sermons pay.
> >
> > spike
> > _______________________________________________
>
>
> >...That is just saying what you have to do with everything that ChatGPT
> writes.
> Give it the specific prompts for what you want, it will write 10 pages
> around that subject, then you have to do the manual bit of proofreading and
> editing to remove 'hallucinations' and parts offensive to your target
> audience.  Job done!
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> Ja, well...eh.... maybe.  BillK, creating a classical sermon is not only
> trimming out the hallucinations and foreign matter, it is all about
> including a bunch of stuff that I can guaran-damn-tee you ChatGPT knows
> nothing about (I experimented with it.)  There is material in that fishbowl
> (still there (the four long tables still where I left them four decades
> ago)) which is not in GPT's training database (and shouldn't be.)
>
> That stuff might not be necessary of course, but for the specialized
> classical sermon audience I am thinking of (the pay-dirt believers) it
> helps.
>
> The more I think about it however, the less ethical the whole notion sounds.
> I walked away from a career in the ministry for ethical reasons a long time
> ago, and I still have a conscience four decades later.   This would be
> taking advantage of good people, of their ignorance in a way.  I might argue
> with myself that theirs is willful ignorance.  Many of the consumers of that
> genre have a bitter determination to maintain that solidly-grounded
> ignorance, and they are good at filtering out stuff that doesn't belong in
> their world view.
>
> But I would know that ethically the pastor-bot notion is not climbing out of
> the yellow.  Currently the needle on my ethics-o-meter is pointing in the
> orange zone and gradually drifting redward.
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Jun  6 17:09:14 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2023 10:09:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] H+ Academy Discussion - AI Pause vs. Proceed
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB4N=4wNhtNa9H1skNdhRJQW9BjY8MGcU1CZY+9xofKxUg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgnWEJakNmuNME9u=TNK+dy18e41Fbg4u4V-z-rCnQUyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKRnsnzaJe7t60VTHcRPuSP9MAfYQhC7fmRvMwf5hjaG53jXjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <63D342B1-49E0-4654-95AC-8B4D57EE1D2D@gmail.com>
 <034c01d99838$0122f900$0368eb00$@rainier66.com>
 <5D2FBE58-A0DC-4BCE-9AC9-7C525AE9B780@gmail.com>
 <00ad01d99884$d94ac000$8be04000$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armgW9WhwyYhh5t2_0MC5ri0xbJe993O69VEGbebhpoJsQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <010c01d99890$68edfc80$3ac9f580$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB4N=4wNhtNa9H1skNdhRJQW9BjY8MGcU1CZY+9xofKxUg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001f01d99899$9efe6270$dcfb2750$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> 
Subject: Re: [ExI] H+ Academy Discussion - AI Pause vs. Proceed

>...The couple of times I gave sermons (Lutheran) I didn't write anything, just winged it.
...

Keith





Lutheran?  Keith I always pictured you as more of a Latter-Day Druid sort.

I have figured out a way to form inspirational messages (for scouts) that make no references to deities, religious literature, or any particular religion.  They work.  The scouts love em.  I word them carefully, so even a flaming atheist can deliver them.

But oh dear, if we were to create a pastor-bot from the material in the fish bowl, it would be concentrated traditionalist Christianity, no apologies, plenty of market for it, tragically unmade money it is, perfectly plentiful profit, unmade by me.  Other people's money is filthy lucre you understand.  All mine is clean lucre, even if the term "clean lucre" just somehow feels like it is fighting itself.

spike







From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Jun  6 22:27:09 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2023 17:27:09 -0500
Subject: [ExI] tinnitus
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEa53U5yMWVaJ=MVMnf9yfPanyX+mrpjO++7yCooqo9pMQ@mail.gmail.com>

If any of you have this pest, respond to me.  I have a way of getting rid
of some of it.

bill w
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From giulio at gmail.com  Tue Jun  6 22:33:46 2023
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2023 15:33:46 -0700
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] tinnitus
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEa53U5yMWVaJ=MVMnf9yfPanyX+mrpjO++7yCooqo9pMQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa53U5yMWVaJ=MVMnf9yfPanyX+mrpjO++7yCooqo9pMQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyeKX+b8TrCMQ+=UdWpNHQeETL-Uh3SmQ_gOEWTgwLTSLg@mail.gmail.com>

My wife does, but make the remedy public!

On 2023. Jun 6., Tue at 15:27, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> If any of you have this pest, respond to me.  I have a way of getting rid
> of some of it.
>
> bill w
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAO%2BxQEa53U5yMWVaJ%3DMVMnf9yfPanyX%2BmrpjO%2B%2B7yCooqo9pMQ%40mail.gmail.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAO%2BxQEa53U5yMWVaJ%3DMVMnf9yfPanyX%2BmrpjO%2B%2B7yCooqo9pMQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>
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From giulio at gmail.com  Tue Jun  6 23:52:59 2023
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2023 16:52:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Thoughts on the manifesto of futurist
 science (1916).
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3L303i0XepH6m0nJr-P3fHCJMSpFn0Z1JEsZ+KnAVGsg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyf4c6N8yB9AoTGtha8NywXpp7-q-vrZT4Sp_D8KgVs6KQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3L303i0XepH6m0nJr-P3fHCJMSpFn0Z1JEsZ+KnAVGsg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfb5w2r4MxbW3Ux=FJvOFX1=h2bV8JBMJaH5KFA_M9u1g@mail.gmail.com>

Hi John,

< something that W.B. Yeats said about that just before World War II
started?>

This is one of my favorite pieces of poetry as well. Unfortunately, it is
very much applicable to our time. However, I don?t read it as an appeal to
the rational brain, but as an appeal to the feeling heart.

< I disagree with that, the foundation of realpolitik is practicality not
ideology?>

They aligned with the fascist party because they wanted to be left in
peace. Sounds practical to me.

< I see strong parallels between Italian fascism and its leader and modern
day American fascism and its leader?>

Sorry, I don?t know who is the leader of modern day American fascism.
Concerning the leader of Italian fascism, there?s a recent historic novel /
biography in three volumes. I read it in Italian, but I see that at least
the first book has been translated:
https://www.amazon.com/M-Century-Novel-Antonio-Scurati-ebook/dp/B09132GN4M/

< And according to them one of those German professors who ?was?? stupid,
petty and idiotic was Albert Einstein?>

This is an interesting topic to research. I?ll do so, but my guess is that
the Italian futurists were referring to those stupid, petty and idiotic
German professors who condemned Einstein. I guess the Italian futurists
would have found Einstein interesting, at least because he was irreverent.
Throwing stones at old sacred cows and all that. I?ll research and say more.

< Nobody says somebody doesn't have a right to do psi research, but such
people do NOT have a right to demand respect from scientists for such
activities?>

I?m sitting on the fence with an open mind. If I were a psi researcher, I
wouldn?t demand respect. I would just demand to be left in peace, like, do
your research and I?ll do mine, and let experiment decide. I might
criticize the anti-psi cancel mobs when they seem to forget the science
that they loudly claim to defend.

On 2023. Jun 6., Tue at 4:38, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> At Turing Church <https://www.turingchurch.com/> Giulio Prisco Wrote:
>
> *> Western culture could use an injection of vitality,*
>
> At least in the USA the problem is not a lack of vitality, it's a lack of
> rationality. And vitality is not necessarily a good thing if it's aimed in
> the wrong direction. I'm not usually big on poetry but I do remember
> something that W.B. Yeats said about that just before World War II started:
>
> *"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon
> the world, The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere The ceremony of
> innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are
> full of passionate intensity. The center cannot hold."*
>
> *> Italian futurism and fascism were not natural allies, but were
>> essentially incompatible*
>
>
> I once thought that American transhumanism and American fascism were
> completely incompatible, but around 2016 I learned to my sorrow I was
> entirely wrong about that.
>
>
>> *> as emphasized by top representatives of both. That many futurists
>> joined Benito Mussolini?s fascist party was due to realpolitik more than
>> ideology.*
>
>
> I disagree with that, the foundation of realpolitik is practicality not
> ideology, and the foundation of practicality is rationality but, as events
> later proved, there was nothing rational about Benito Mussolini's fascism,
> things did NOT turn out the way his ideology predicted it would.  I see
> strong parallels between Italian fascism and its leader and modern day
> American fascism and its leader.
>
>
>> *> Italian futurists were anti-clerical, but not anti-spiritual. On the
>> contrary, many participated in theosophical salons and were open to
>> paranormal phenomena, life after death, spiritualism and all that.*
>
>
> The same thing could be said about American fascism except that they are
> pro clerical.  And science is open to any idea, new or old, provided there
> is a rational reason to believe that it might be true.
>
> *> I?ll now translate some passages of ?La Scienza Futurista? (1916) and
>> comment. The manifesto begins with a strong condemnation of the science
>> establishment that, ?hypnotized by the stupid books of the countless
>> university professors of Germany,? is ?superficially precise, pettily
>> accurate, idiotically sure of its own infallibility, without any brilliant
>> explosion.?*
>>
>
> And according to them one of those German professors who was stupid, petty
> and idiotic was Albert Einstein.
>
> *> I don?t intend to affirm that psi is real or defend any specific result
>> of psi research. I just want to defend the right of scientists to do psi
>> research,*
>
>
> Nobody says somebody doesn't have a right to do psi research, but such
> people do *NOT* have a right to demand respect from scientists for such
> activities if, despite centuries of effort, they fail to come up with
> anything that is both interesting and repeatable. Instead the interesting
> stuff is not repeatable and the repeatable stuff is not interesting.
>
>> John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis
> <https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv3L303i0XepH6m0nJr-P3fHCJMSpFn0Z1JEsZ%2BKnAVGsg%40mail.gmail.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv3L303i0XepH6m0nJr-P3fHCJMSpFn0Z1JEsZ%2BKnAVGsg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>
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From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Jun  7 00:18:05 2023
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2023 20:18:05 -0400
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] tinnitus
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyeKX+b8TrCMQ+=UdWpNHQeETL-Uh3SmQ_gOEWTgwLTSLg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa53U5yMWVaJ=MVMnf9yfPanyX+mrpjO++7yCooqo9pMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyeKX+b8TrCMQ+=UdWpNHQeETL-Uh3SmQ_gOEWTgwLTSLg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbKdZ0tq+BCZa-NoL6XiGBCnDWXTh_XVAUKGNM-mYS_Esg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 6, 2023, 6:37 PM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> My wife does, but make the remedy public!
>
> On 2023. Jun 6., Tue at 15:27, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> If any of you have this pest, respond to me.  I have a way of getting rid
>> of some of it.
>>
>
Ikr, as if the "one weird trick" that cures tinnitus is being duped into
watching insufferable videos then trusting $x00 pill blend will fix
everything (yeah, thc is great but don't oversell it)

For all future helpful health info, don't ask to share; just share :)

>
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Jun  7 00:40:52 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2023 17:40:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] H+ Academy Discussion - AI Pause vs. Proceed
In-Reply-To: <001f01d99899$9efe6270$dcfb2750$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armgnWEJakNmuNME9u=TNK+dy18e41Fbg4u4V-z-rCnQUyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKRnsnzaJe7t60VTHcRPuSP9MAfYQhC7fmRvMwf5hjaG53jXjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <63D342B1-49E0-4654-95AC-8B4D57EE1D2D@gmail.com>
 <034c01d99838$0122f900$0368eb00$@rainier66.com>
 <5D2FBE58-A0DC-4BCE-9AC9-7C525AE9B780@gmail.com>
 <00ad01d99884$d94ac000$8be04000$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armgW9WhwyYhh5t2_0MC5ri0xbJe993O69VEGbebhpoJsQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <010c01d99890$68edfc80$3ac9f580$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB4N=4wNhtNa9H1skNdhRJQW9BjY8MGcU1CZY+9xofKxUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001f01d99899$9efe6270$dcfb2750$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6MT14_h1do9GhZo8GoN-d2o5=-7P84c5zjOPkaCuW4Pw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 10:10?AM spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] H+ Academy Discussion - AI Pause vs. Proceed
>
> >...The couple of times I gave sermons (Lutheran) I didn't write anything, just winged it.
> ...
> Keith
>
> Lutheran?  Keith I always pictured you as more of a Latter-Day Druid sort.

U of Arizona Druids were a joke on the administration.  Mind you, a
fairly successful joke.  When it got up to 20% of the students
claiming their religion was some silly variation of a pagan religion
the administration had to quit asking. The religious makeup of the
university was reported to some organization of universities and 20%
pagans was not acceptable to the statistic keepers.

> I have figured out a way to form inspirational messages (for scouts) that make no references to deities, religious literature, or any particular religion.  They work.  The scouts love em.  I word them carefully, so even a flaming atheist can deliver them.
>
> But oh dear, if we were to create a pastor-bot from the material in the fish bowl, it would be concentrated traditionalist Christianity, no apologies, plenty of market for it, tragically unmade money it is, perfectly plentiful profit, unmade by me.  Other people's money is filthy lucre you understand.  All mine is clean lucre, even if the term "clean lucre" just somehow feels like it is fighting itself.

Hmm.

Keith

> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Jun  7 01:02:24 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2023 20:02:24 -0500
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] tinnitus
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbKdZ0tq+BCZa-NoL6XiGBCnDWXTh_XVAUKGNM-mYS_Esg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa53U5yMWVaJ=MVMnf9yfPanyX+mrpjO++7yCooqo9pMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyeKX+b8TrCMQ+=UdWpNHQeETL-Uh3SmQ_gOEWTgwLTSLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbKdZ0tq+BCZa-NoL6XiGBCnDWXTh_XVAUKGNM-mYS_Esg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbWYjkoisT1CD0WdoFZuKFS-ijH+ERV-6k_sRHB-K7UwA@mail.gmail.com>

For all future helpful health info, don't ask to share; just share :)  Mike

MIke - you don't know what you are asking.  I have a long and complicated
health history, and from each I have learned some things about doctors,
medicines, health insurance, myself, and so on.  Things that Rafal might
not tell you, esp. about doctors.  I don't think most of you will
appreciate pages and pages on what to do about back aches (that one will
fill pages), and such.

So I really don't know how to respond to your post.  I will be glad to
respond to any health questions you have.  Who knows?  You might learn
something!  Me too.  Others might chip in with home remedies and opinions.
Health is everyone's concern.     You could save money.  YOu could feel
better.  You could help someone else.  You could save your life or someone
else's.

Here's one more:  I get neck troubles when I read.  I hold my book and look
down at it for long periods of time.  My PT woman told me this:  put two
fat pillows on your lap so the book and your eyes will be at the same
height.  I bought a book holder to go on top.   I can sit with both hands
free except to turn pages.  Fixed my neck aches and cricks.     Who cares
if it looks silly?  bill w

On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 7:21?PM Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 6, 2023, 6:37 PM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> My wife does, but make the remedy public!
>>
>> On 2023. Jun 6., Tue at 15:27, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> If any of you have this pest, respond to me.  I have a way of getting
>>> rid of some of it.
>>>
>>
> Ikr, as if the "one weird trick" that cures tinnitus is being duped into
> watching insufferable videos then trusting $x00 pill blend will fix
> everything (yeah, thc is great but don't oversell it)
>
> For all future helpful health info, don't ask to share; just share :)
>
>> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Jun  7 02:55:07 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2023 19:55:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] H+ Academy Discussion - AI Pause vs. Proceed
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB6MT14_h1do9GhZo8GoN-d2o5=-7P84c5zjOPkaCuW4Pw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgnWEJakNmuNME9u=TNK+dy18e41Fbg4u4V-z-rCnQUyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKRnsnzaJe7t60VTHcRPuSP9MAfYQhC7fmRvMwf5hjaG53jXjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <63D342B1-49E0-4654-95AC-8B4D57EE1D2D@gmail.com>
 <034c01d99838$0122f900$0368eb00$@rainier66.com>
 <5D2FBE58-A0DC-4BCE-9AC9-7C525AE9B780@gmail.com>
 <00ad01d99884$d94ac000$8be04000$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armgW9WhwyYhh5t2_0MC5ri0xbJe993O69VEGbebhpoJsQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <010c01d99890$68edfc80$3ac9f580$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB4N=4wNhtNa9H1skNdhRJQW9BjY8MGcU1CZY+9xofKxUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001f01d99899$9efe6270$dcfb2750$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB6MT14_h1do9GhZo8GoN-d2o5=-7P84c5zjOPkaCuW4Pw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002001d998eb$77fff560$67ffe020$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> 


>...The religious makeup of the university was reported to some organization of universities and 20% pagans was not acceptable to the statistic keepers.  Keith

Keith the statisticians are still at it in the local public schools, but they ask about ethnicity with too few choices.  The statistics they gather have real world consequences, big ones.

spike 




From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Jun  7 04:15:58 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2023 21:15:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [AR] Planned FAA LOX-Methane Safety Studies?
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB72w3JUpv1OAR_ncjBZ0Tad97TaFTs9RbSDvSQNVmdFEQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20230524010553.DA8CC40723@turing.freelists.org>
 <CAPiwVB5-i=poitqWqDOXxCS174Zfga8hb2G-xXWy419EpicA8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB72w3JUpv1OAR_ncjBZ0Tad97TaFTs9RbSDvSQNVmdFEQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7n30zid=bJNiU0+rNF+FYz3pNm2V6HpZ0W-pBXq3Qbdw@mail.gmail.com>

You might be amused by this post.

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 8:57?PM
Subject: [AR] Planned FAA LOX-Methane Safety Studies?
To: <arocket at freelists.org>

On Tue, May 23, 2023 at 6:06?PM Henry Vanderbilt
<hvanderbilt at mindspring.com> wrote:

> Anyone know anything more about this?  Something we've discussed around
> here occasionally.  Looks like FAA (later also a NASA/Space Force
> followon) is planning a drop-test program to get more data on
> appropriate explosive-equivalence assumptions for LOX-LCH4 rocket safety
> planning.

The FAA is concerned about the effects of mixed LNG and LOX, unlikely
as it is that the common bulkhead could fail.

The day after this post, I woke up musing about the recent postings on a-rocket.

The FAA concern is bulkhead failure, intimate mixing of the liquid
methane and LOX, and a shock to make a big boom.

Burning on contact makes a heck of a fire, but no shock wave.

I thought up a passive, low-cost, and reliable way; to assure a fire
rather than mixing.  Put an open container of triethylaluminum in the
top of the liquid methane tank.  "It is one of the few substances
sufficiently pyrophoric to ignite on contact with cryogenic liquid
oxygen." (Wikipedia). Waited till the check to the patent office
cleared before posting this.

Wanted to run it by Henry Spencer before trying to find a way to get
the idea to SpaceX or the FAA.

Keith

> Jeff Foust/Space News piece at
> https://spacenews.com/agencies-studying-safety-issues-of-lox-methane-launch-vehicles/
>
> This sentence from the story is causing me some head-scratching. RE the
> planned FAA tests, "A crane 43 meters tall will be used to drop
> stainless steel containers containing mixtures of LOX and methane."
>
> So is that going to be drop tests of, stainless containers with separate
> LOX and LCH4 tanks, IE subscale representative booster sections?  That
> is what I'd (perhaps naively) think would yield useful data about
> potential worst-case LOX-methane booster pad-dropback accidents.
>
> But that sentence makes it sound like they may be going to pre-mix the
> LOX and methane before drop tests.  Which causes me puzzlement, because
> isn't premixed LOX and LCH4 also known as "sensitive high explosive"?
> Which would make for fun LOUD Ka-Booms on impact, but may not yield a
> lot of new knowledge?  Or am I missing something?  Perhaps testing bulk
> impact sensitivity of varying pre-mix ratios, rather than likely rocket
> near-stoichiometric? I'm still not sure how that might be relevant
> knowledge, but, always willing to learn...
>
> Normally I'd just assume reportorial imprecision, perhaps exacerbated by
> interviewee imprecision, word-count limits, and/or deadline pressure.
> But, well, this is Jeff Foust (Hi Jeff, if you're on here!)  Anyone have
> any theoretical light to shed on this?  Or, given this crowd, actual
> knowledge of what FAA is looking to do here?
>
> Henry
>
> On Tue, May 23, 2023 at 10:25?AM Henry Vanderbilt <
> hvanderbilt at mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> > Anyone know anything more about this?  Something we've discussed around
> > here occasionally.  Looks like FAA (later also a NASA/Space Force followon)
> > is planning a drop-test program to get more data on appropriate
> > explosive-equivalence assumptions for LOX-LCH4 rocket safety planning.
> >
> > Jeff Foust/Space News piece at
> > https://spacenews.com/agencies-studying-safety-issues-of-lox-methane-launch-vehicles/
> >
> > This sentence from the story is causing me some head-scratching.  RE the
> > planned FAA tests, "A crane 43 meters tall will be used to drop stainless
> > steel containers containing mixtures of LOX and methane."
> >
> > So is that going to be drop tests of, stainless containers with separate
> > LOX and LCH4 tanks, IE subscale representative booster sections?  That is
> > what I'd (perhaps naively) think would yield useful data about potential
> > worst-case LOX-methane booster pad-dropback accidents.
> >
> > But that sentence makes it sound like they may be going to pre-mix the LOX
> > and methane before drop tests.  Which causes me puzzlement, because isn't
> > premixed LOX and LCH4 also known as "sensitive high explosive"?  Which
> > would make for fun LOUD Ka-Booms on impact, but may not yield a lot of new
> > knowledge?  Or am I missing something?  Perhaps testing bulk impact
> > sensitivity of varying pre-mix ratios, rather than likely rocket
> > near-stoichiometric?  I'm still not sure how that might be relevant
> > knowledge, but, always willing to learn...
> >
> > Normally I'd just assume reportorial imprecision, perhaps exacerbated by
> > interviewee imprecision, word-count limits, and/or deadline pressure.  But,
> > well, this is Jeff Foust (Hi Jeff, if you're on here!)  Anyone have any
> > theoretical light to shed on this?  Or, given this crowd, actual knowledge
> > of what FAA is looking to do here?
> >
> > Henry
> >
> ------------------------------
> Subject: [AR] Re: Planned FAA LOX-Methane Safety Studies?
> From: Henry Vanderbilt <hvanderbilt at mindspring.com>
> Date: Tue, 23 May 2023 09:59:11 -0700
>
> Interesting.  The FAA tests will start with a calibration shot of 1000
> lbs of c-4.  (!)  Then drop tests of 2000 lbs LN2, then 2000 lbs
> LOX/LCH4 twice, pressurized then unpressurized, then 20,000 lb LOX/LCH4
> pressurized then unpressurized, then 500 lb LOX/LCH4 pressurized then
> unpressurized.  No specific statement on mix ratio or separate tanks
> versus single-tank premix.  Perhaps they assume it goes without saying.
> Dugway tests were with a glass common bulkhead between the propellants
> in a notional vertical-cylinder rocket body, guesstimating from the
> photo ~4 ft diameter and ~20+ ft total tanks length.  They started the
> tests by breaking the glass, with a delayed ignitor present in case
> breaking the glass hadn't already lit things off.  Not much detail on
> results, beyond this:
>
> "The last COMET test, with large amounts of LNG/LOX, produced an
> especially strong blast, creating a large crater and damaging critical
> test equipment. The curved lid of the tank shot up like a flying saucer,
> and landed 800 feet away."
>
> Henry
>
> On 5/23/2023 9:34 AM, John DeMar wrote:
> > More here:
> > https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/508.10-Spring-2023-REDAC-NAS-Ops-AST-Update.pdf
> > <https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/508.10-Spring-2023-REDAC-NAS-Ops-AST-Update.pdf>
> >
> > Likely separate tanks, similar to this test 3 years ago at Dugway:
> > https://www.army.mil/article/235745/rocket_fuel_test_finds_dugway_ideal
> > <https://www.army.mil/article/235745/rocket_fuel_test_finds_dugway_ideal>
> >
> >   -John
> >
>


From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Jun  7 04:48:11 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2023 21:48:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [AR] Planned FAA LOX-Methane Safety Studies?
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7n30zid=bJNiU0+rNF+FYz3pNm2V6HpZ0W-pBXq3Qbdw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20230524010553.DA8CC40723@turing.freelists.org>
 <CAPiwVB5-i=poitqWqDOXxCS174Zfga8hb2G-xXWy419EpicA8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB72w3JUpv1OAR_ncjBZ0Tad97TaFTs9RbSDvSQNVmdFEQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7n30zid=bJNiU0+rNF+FYz3pNm2V6HpZ0W-pBXq3Qbdw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005a01d998fb$43d8df80$cb8a9e80$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat
...

>...The FAA concern is bulkhead failure, intimate mixing of the liquid methane and LOX, and a shock to make a big boom.

>...Burning on contact makes a heck of a fire, but no shock wave....
Keith




Keith I don't know about the triethylene aluminum idea, sounds reasonable.  But now I am interested in trying to make a big boom by intentionally mixing LOX and liquid methane and intentionally making a big boom, just for the hell of it.  One woulda thought I had outgrown such silliness by now.

spike



From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Jun  7 17:12:56 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2023 10:12:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [AR] Planned FAA LOX-Methane Safety Studies?
In-Reply-To: <005a01d998fb$43d8df80$cb8a9e80$@rainier66.com>
References: <20230524010553.DA8CC40723@turing.freelists.org>
 <CAPiwVB5-i=poitqWqDOXxCS174Zfga8hb2G-xXWy419EpicA8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB72w3JUpv1OAR_ncjBZ0Tad97TaFTs9RbSDvSQNVmdFEQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7n30zid=bJNiU0+rNF+FYz3pNm2V6HpZ0W-pBXq3Qbdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <005a01d998fb$43d8df80$cb8a9e80$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4D0Hq-A9SPf-THT5tr+8fHJdgtZOGR1xuwVvQYTAwy4w@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 9:49?PM spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat
>
> >...The FAA concern is bulkhead failure, intimate mixing of the liquid methane and LOX, and a shock to make a big boom.
>
> >...Burning on contact makes a heck of a fire, but no shock wave....
> Keith
>
> Keith I don't know about the triethylene aluminum idea, sounds reasonable.  But now I am interested in trying to make a big boom by intentionally mixing LOX and liquid methane and intentionally making a big boom, just for the hell of it.  One woulda thought I had outgrown such silliness by now.
>
> spike

There are some practical problems with this.  LOX is easy to get, but
LNG is not so simple.  Oxygen boiling out of a storage dewar is a lot
less of a problem than natural gas.

There are people, not sure if you know them, who have mixed propane
and LOX in two-liter bottles. The two are not miscible the way LNG and
LOX are, but my understanding is that they mix better if you screw on
the cap and let the bottle warm up some.

>From stories I have heard, the bottle goes bang about 1/3 of the time
with a 30-06 round and every time with a tracer round.  The bang is
about equal to a 50-pound box of dynamite.

Keith
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From giulio at gmail.com  Wed Jun  7 17:28:38 2023
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2023 10:28:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Thoughts on the manifesto of futurist
 science (1916).
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv13FsU1bFc7Q67rvqboi5o-eQbi718-iiPGi0gAsODiiQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyf4c6N8yB9AoTGtha8NywXpp7-q-vrZT4Sp_D8KgVs6KQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3L303i0XepH6m0nJr-P3fHCJMSpFn0Z1JEsZ+KnAVGsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyfb5w2r4MxbW3Ux=FJvOFX1=h2bV8JBMJaH5KFA_M9u1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv13FsU1bFc7Q67rvqboi5o-eQbi718-iiPGi0gAsODiiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyc2r5zYPfm0_Mu9N6K9HwnP2f5BgAxkiwQ7xeYM5yOhZg@mail.gmail.com>

<Benito Mussolini?>

The book I recommended shows that Mussolini was an answer to the concerns
of a large number of Italians, mostly young working class men who had
participated in WW1, who were feeling that they had been thrown away in the
rubbish bin of history. The Italian political establishment ignored them,
and Mussolini was the only one who offered an answer.

I?m not an American and I prefer to keep away from US politics, but I have
the impression that the same can be said of Trump.

That an answer is questionable doesn?t mean that the concerns it responds
to are not valid.

< ESP research that had led, just like everybody else's ESP research,
precisely nowhere?>

This is your opinion. Others, including top scientists like Stuart Kauffman
and winners of the Nobel Prize in Physics like Brian Josephson, think that
there?s plenty of solid experimental evidence for ESP. As a scientist who
has been working in other fields, I prefer to watch with an open mind. If
humans have natural ESP abilities, good! If not, no big deal, we?ll just
have to engineer equivalent abilities, and we?re doing this already.


On 2023. Jun 7., Wed at 4:55, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 7:53?PM Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Giulio
>
> >> "I see strong parallels between Italian fascism and its leader and
>>> modern day American fascism and its leader"
>>
>>
>
> > "*Sorry, I don?t know who is the leader of modern day American fascism*
>> ."
>
>
> Benito Mussolini staged a coup d'?tat on October 28 1922 in order to
> become dictator of Italy, Donald Trump staged a coup d'?tat on January 6
> 2021 in order to become dictator of America. The only difference is
> Mussolini's coup d'?tat worked, Trump's didn't. But Trump hasn't given
> up.
>
>
>> >> "Nobody says somebody doesn't have a right to do psi research, but
>>> such people do NOT have a right to demand respect from scientists for such
>>> activities"
>>
>>
>> > "*I?m sitting on the fence with an open mind. If I were a psi
>> researcher, I wouldn?t demand respect. I would just demand to be left in
>> peace, like, do your research and I?ll do mine, and let experiment decide.*
>> "
>>
>
> If I was a professor and was on a committee to determine if somebody
> should get tenure at my university, and all they had done was conduct ESP
> research that had led, just like everybody else's ESP research, precisely
> nowhere, then I would definitely vote against granting tenure. This is
> because, due to finite resources, there's only a limited number of people
> who can receive it and there are plenty of good mathematicians, physicists.
> chemists and biologists who deserve it more. If that were to happen the
> rejected professor would undoubtedly scream that he was being discriminated
> against, and that would be true, we would be discriminating between good
> scientists and bad scientists, but he would even claim that he was the
> victim of censorship, but that would not be true. He's free to say whatever
> he wishes to say and is free to continue with his "research"; it's just
> that the university has decided not to continue paying him to do it.  If
> you pay somebody to conduct yet another investigation into spoon bending to
> go with the 6.02*10^23 ones that have already been done then you don't have
> the resources to pay somebody else to conduct research in an area that is
> almost certain to be more productive.
>
>  John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis
> <https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>
> sbb
>
>
>
>>> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv13FsU1bFc7Q67rvqboi5o-eQbi718-iiPGi0gAsODiiQ%40mail.gmail.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv13FsU1bFc7Q67rvqboi5o-eQbi718-iiPGi0gAsODiiQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Jun  7 18:03:50 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2023 11:03:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [AR] Planned FAA LOX-Methane Safety Studies?
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB4D0Hq-A9SPf-THT5tr+8fHJdgtZOGR1xuwVvQYTAwy4w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20230524010553.DA8CC40723@turing.freelists.org>
 <CAPiwVB5-i=poitqWqDOXxCS174Zfga8hb2G-xXWy419EpicA8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB72w3JUpv1OAR_ncjBZ0Tad97TaFTs9RbSDvSQNVmdFEQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7n30zid=bJNiU0+rNF+FYz3pNm2V6HpZ0W-pBXq3Qbdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <005a01d998fb$43d8df80$cb8a9e80$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB4D0Hq-A9SPf-THT5tr+8fHJdgtZOGR1xuwVvQYTAwy4w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00b701d9996a$6a2c94f0$3e85bed0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> 
...
>...There are some practical problems with this.  LOX is easy to get, but LNG is not so simple.  Oxygen boiling out of a storage dewar is a lot less of a problem than natural gas.

>...There are people, not sure if you know them, who have mixed propane and LOX in two-liter bottles. The two are not miscible the way LNG and LOX are, but my understanding is that they mix better if you screw on the cap and let the bottle warm up some.

Keith
>
> _______________________________________________


So... how about a can of LOX in a medical cylinder, valve closed, partial bottle of LNG from camping supply (I already have three of those in addition to the two on the front of my camper) put the LNG in a salt water ice bath, connect the two cans with the LNG on bottom and the O2 bottle above so it is driven by both pressure differential and gravity.  We figure out the amounts of each for a nice stochiometric... reaction... arrange for that amount of each to be in each can to start with.  Open the valve, get outta range, cameras running.  Mister Thirty Aught Six after about ten minutes, recreational destruction and shock waves.

Keith I am a lucky man.  I didn't have the money for this kind of fun silliness back when I woulda actually done it, and now that I have the necessary filthy lucre, I am reprehensibly, steadfastly civic minded and responsible, unlikely to create shock waves just for the sake of entertainment and internet fame.

Life is that way often.  Same way with motorcycles.  As I get older, I buy faster and faster bikes, but ride them slower and slower.

Sigh.

spike











From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Jun  7 18:11:31 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2023 11:11:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Interstellar travel
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5-U45NCD9ir4At6CujbLGOLR6kUZ2c1RORpSMWFkEhDQ@mail.gmail.com>

With the runup to the singularity (at least the AI part) underway, it
may be time to start thinking about visiting the galaxy.

I wrote about this back in 1990.  I don't think there have been any
new ideas since.  I think it is clear that full-capacity
nanotechnology will exist before anyone leaves the solar system.
(Accelerando explored this theme.)

You can go way sub-light speeds.  But given uploading and controlling
clock rate, a trip can be subjectively as short as you like.  On the
other hand, there is plenty of information capacity in the propulsion
laser system.  If you want to keep up with the news from home, you
can, but it is read-only.   Trying to make comments on the news when
you are a light year or two out is not going to work.

You can also use a TW scale laser to push vehicles to a substantial
fraction of light speed.  The problem is slowing down at the target
star.  Drexler worked out one method, Forward had another one.

Of course, all this assumes that we do not figure out FLT.  I suspect
that is not possible.

Keith

From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Jun  7 18:16:57 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2023 11:16:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Interstellar travel
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB5-U45NCD9ir4At6CujbLGOLR6kUZ2c1RORpSMWFkEhDQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5-U45NCD9ir4At6CujbLGOLR6kUZ2c1RORpSMWFkEhDQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTcWsXk1Z8V4BunBvVXRJBsLH_j7QSp11RLt8+OCt-wqg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 7, 2023 at 11:13?AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> With the runup to the singularity (at least the AI part) underway, it
> may be time to start thinking about visiting the galaxy.


How about visiting the other planets?


> I wrote about this back in 1990.  I don't think there have been any
> new ideas since.  I think it is clear that full-capacity
> nanotechnology will exist before anyone leaves the solar system.
> (Accelerando explored this theme.)
>

Will there likely be 100,000 or more people living off of Earth
(simultaneously/at any one moment, not just the total who've ever been
off-planet) before full-capacity nanotechnology becomes generally
available?
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Jun  7 18:34:27 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2023 11:34:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [AR] Planned FAA LOX-Methane Safety Studies?
In-Reply-To: <00b701d9996a$6a2c94f0$3e85bed0$@rainier66.com>
References: <20230524010553.DA8CC40723@turing.freelists.org>
 <CAPiwVB5-i=poitqWqDOXxCS174Zfga8hb2G-xXWy419EpicA8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB72w3JUpv1OAR_ncjBZ0Tad97TaFTs9RbSDvSQNVmdFEQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7n30zid=bJNiU0+rNF+FYz3pNm2V6HpZ0W-pBXq3Qbdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <005a01d998fb$43d8df80$cb8a9e80$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB4D0Hq-A9SPf-THT5tr+8fHJdgtZOGR1xuwVvQYTAwy4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b701d9996a$6a2c94f0$3e85bed0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7+B=XZTZEP85fCdMsH9oxB_VKb1Q79aEMF4Zhzvzpt9g@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 7, 2023 at 11:05?AM spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
> ...
> >...There are some practical problems with this.  LOX is easy to get, but LNG is not so simple.  Oxygen boiling out of a storage dewar is a lot less of a problem than natural gas.
>
> >...There are people, not sure if you know them, who have mixed propane and LOX in two-liter bottles. The two are not miscible the way LNG and LOX are, but my understanding is that they mix better if you screw on the cap and let the bottle warm up some.
>
> Keith
> >
> > _______________________________________________
>
>
> So... how about a can of LOX in a medical cylinder, valve closed, partial bottle of LNG from camping supply

Not LNG, camping gas is propane.  LNG is about as cold as LOX.

(I already have three of those in addition to the two on the front of
my camper) put the LNG in a salt water ice bath, connect the two cans
with the LNG on bottom and the O2 bottle above so it is driven by both
pressure differential and gravity.  We figure out the amounts of each
for a nice stochiometric... reaction... arrange for that amount of
each to be in each can to start with.  Open the valve, get outta
range, cameras running.  Mister Thirty Aught Six after about ten
minutes, recreational destruction and shock waves.
>
> Keith I am a lucky man.  I didn't have the money for this kind of fun silliness back when I woulda actually done it, and now that I have the necessary filthy lucre, I am reprehensibly, steadfastly civic minded and responsible, unlikely to create shock waves just for the sake of entertainment and internet fame.

You can also make money at it, consider Mythbusters.

Did two before I ran out of drive to do such nonsense.  One was a
party for when a well-known friend got his PhD, and the other was when
a bunch of friends poured 200 pounds of propane down a mine shaft and
tossed in a flare.

> Life is that way often.  Same way with motorcycles.  As I get older, I buy faster and faster bikes, but ride them slower and slower.

Know the feeling.

Keith

> Sigh.
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From ben at zaiboc.net  Wed Jun  7 19:03:01 2023
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2023 20:03:01 +0100
Subject: [ExI] tinnitus
In-Reply-To: <mailman.11.1686158017.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.11.1686158017.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <e90f31a9-6318-3917-8790-55a761f43201@zaiboc.net>


On 07/06/2023 18:13, BillW wrote:
> If any of you have this pest, respond to me.? I have a way of getting 
> rid of some of it.

Hi, Bill

I avoid sending messages to gmail accounts as much as possible, so am 
responding on the list.

For me, not a great pest, but I do have it to a degree, and I seem to 
remember you saying you have it quite severely, but it doesn't bother 
you much.

I'd be interested in hearing how you 'get rid of some of it', or make it 
more tolerable, not just for myself, but it may help me to help others too.

If you're hesitant about posting a large amount of information to the 
list, you can reply to me directly instead of to the list, but I'm sure 
most people here wouldn't object to an attached document, even if it was 
many pages long, especially if it was as potentially useful as this 
seems to be.

Ben

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Jun  7 19:26:31 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2023 12:26:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Interstellar travel
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTcWsXk1Z8V4BunBvVXRJBsLH_j7QSp11RLt8+OCt-wqg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5-U45NCD9ir4At6CujbLGOLR6kUZ2c1RORpSMWFkEhDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTcWsXk1Z8V4BunBvVXRJBsLH_j7QSp11RLt8+OCt-wqg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB71Lx8ch9Rd0MOmhQ3fpW0+ZuC+OR3DmL-rdpi+6=tRmA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 7, 2023 at 11:19?AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jun 7, 2023 at 11:13?AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> With the runup to the singularity (at least the AI part) underway, it
>> may be time to start thinking about visiting the galaxy.
>
> How about visiting the other planets?
>
Done that.  Got the tee shirt.  (At least our robots have.)

>> I wrote about this back in 1990.  I don't think there have been any
>> new ideas since.  I think it is clear that full-capacity
>> nanotechnology will exist before anyone leaves the solar system.
>> (Accelerando explored this theme.)
>
> Will there likely be 100,000 or more people living off of Earth (simultaneously/at any one moment, not just the total who've ever been off-planet) before full-capacity nanotechnology becomes generally available?

The future is impossible to predict, but I really doubt it.  I don't
think there is time for substantial human presence in space before
nanotechnology.

Keith
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Jun  7 22:18:27 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2023 17:18:27 -0500
Subject: [ExI] tinnitus
In-Reply-To: <e90f31a9-6318-3917-8790-55a761f43201@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.11.1686158017.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <e90f31a9-6318-3917-8790-55a761f43201@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEa33n08vUrk_-V8-jh5jtr0MMFRovgO6DhmMCUa9SeC1A@mail.gmail.com>

Ben, everything I know about I already posted.  Put your hand over your
ear,moving it back and forth to make noise.  That, for me, turns off one or
more, but not all of my ringing.   bill w

On Wed, Jun 7, 2023 at 2:05?PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> On 07/06/2023 18:13, BillW wrote:
> > If any of you have this pest, respond to me.  I have a way of getting
> > rid of some of it.
>
> Hi, Bill
>
> I avoid sending messages to gmail accounts as much as possible, so am
> responding on the list.
>
> For me, not a great pest, but I do have it to a degree, and I seem to
> remember you saying you have it quite severely, but it doesn't bother
> you much.
>
> I'd be interested in hearing how you 'get rid of some of it', or make it
> more tolerable, not just for myself, but it may help me to help others too.
>
> If you're hesitant about posting a large amount of information to the
> list, you can reply to me directly instead of to the list, but I'm sure
> most people here wouldn't object to an attached document, even if it was
> many pages long, especially if it was as potentially useful as this
> seems to be.
>
> Ben
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Jun  8 12:32:25 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2023 07:32:25 -0500
Subject: [ExI] new words to me
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZhp=eeDnCWS5co0u8NtUii50SXVBfP1RTHxf3QyUzL-w@mail.gmail.com>

[image: EarthSky | Seeing things that aren't there? It's called ...]
Seeing familiar objects or patterns in otherwise random or unrelated
objects or patterns is called pareidolia. It's a form of apophenia, which
is a more general term for the human tendency to seek patterns in random
information. Everyone experiences it from time to time. google
bill w
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From giulio at gmail.com  Thu Jun  8 17:02:50 2023
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2023 10:02:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Thoughts on the manifesto of futurist
 science (1916).
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0AaKXGUiD-a5w7kxnK6VRRi6qqnUTJ60t=KGiWuuV49g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyf4c6N8yB9AoTGtha8NywXpp7-q-vrZT4Sp_D8KgVs6KQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3L303i0XepH6m0nJr-P3fHCJMSpFn0Z1JEsZ+KnAVGsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyfb5w2r4MxbW3Ux=FJvOFX1=h2bV8JBMJaH5KFA_M9u1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv13FsU1bFc7Q67rvqboi5o-eQbi718-iiPGi0gAsODiiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyc2r5zYPfm0_Mu9N6K9HwnP2f5BgAxkiwQ7xeYM5yOhZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0AaKXGUiD-a5w7kxnK6VRRi6qqnUTJ60t=KGiWuuV49g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJydAbEQ752ReV0gWhAqxy46WzAmss_PJ_mq+vFV_BNSx_A@mail.gmail.com>

John:

< Brian Josephson was a great scientist and in the early 60's when he was
only 22 he wrote an absolutely brilliant paper on superconductivity and won
a Nobel Prize for it, but very soon after that he abandoned the scientific
method. The parapsychology meme virus infected his mind and thus despite
such a spectacular early start to his career he hasn't had a creative
thought since then, for the last half century he has accomplished precisely
nothing. There seems to be no idea so screwy he can't make himself believe
it. The poor man has lost his mind.>

That Josephson was a genius at 22 doesn?t imply that he was always right.
But I think it implies that he deserves the benefit of doubt. Perhaps he
was right on parapsychology, and his detractors were wrong. Perhaps.

< As for Stuart Kauffman, he has said some things that I've disagreed with,
such as:

 "if mind is partially quantum, nonlocality is possible so psychokinesis is
possible and testable, as is telepathy."

But psi has been tested over and over again, and it keeps on failing. And
it's not surprising it failed given that because Bell's Inequality is
violated we know that nonlocality is real but we also know that phenomenon
cannot be used to transmit information, so it can't be involved in
telepathy or signaling by way of psychokinesis.>

I think you forgot to add something like ?as far as we presently know.?
Also, yes, correlation doesn?t imply causation, but this cuts both ways.
Even if there?s nothing involved that we would call causation, the
correlation is still there. A particle doesn?t ?tell? its spin to its
entangled pair (again, as far as we presently know), but the spin of its
entangled pair is (anti)correlated anyway. If you and I consistently happen
to think the same thing, isn?t this telepathy?

< And Kaufman has said some things that I find puzzling, such as:

"I can find NO direct evidence for free will, but the quantum enigma
requires it and it is possible."

I'll know if I agree or disagree with him about that as soon as he tells me
what the hell "free will" is supposed to mean.  >

I define the free will of an agent as the ability to do things that are not
entirely and uniquely determined by the rest of the universe (that is, the
universe minus the agent). Kauffman seems to think more or less the same.
Much more in my next book. I plan to have the draft ready by the end of the
year, and I?ll invite you to read and criticize the draft.

< And Kaufman has said some things that I can't make heads or tails out of,
such as:

"Evolution creates the very possibilities into which it becomes, without
"selection" "acting" to achieve the very adjacent possible opportunities
into which it becomes."

Huh?>

I think he means that actual history changes what he calls the ?adjacent
possible? and creates new possibilities that could (or not) become actual.

On 2023. Jun 7., Wed at 12:20, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 7, 2023 at 1:28?PM Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> ESP research that had led, just like everybody else's ESP research,
>>> precisely nowhere"
>>
>>
>> *> This is your opinion. Others, including top scientists like Stuart
>> Kauffman and winners of the Nobel Prize in Physics like Brian Josephson,
>> think that there?s plenty of solid experimental evidence for ESP.*
>>
>
> Brian Josephson was a great scientist and in the early 60's when he was
> only 22 he wrote an absolutely brilliant paper on superconductivity and won
> a Nobel Prize for it, but very soon after that he abandoned the scientific
> method. The parapsychology meme virus infected his mind and thus despite
> such a spectacular early start to his career he hasn't had a creative
> thought since then, for the last half century he has accomplished precisely
> nothing. There seems to be no idea so screwy he can't make himself believe
> it. The poor man has lost his mind.
>
> As for Stuart Kauffman, he has said some things that I've disagreed with,
> such as:
>
>  *"if mind is partially quantum, nonlocality is possible so psychokinesis
> is possible and testable, as is telepathy."*
>
> But psi has been tested over and over again, and it keeps on failing. And
> it's not surprising it failed given that because Bell's Inequality is
> violated we know that nonlocality is real but we also know that phenomenon
> cannot be used to transmit information, so it can't be involved in
> telepathy or signaling by way of psychokinesis.
>
> And Kaufman has said some things that I find puzzling, such as:
>
> *"I can find NO direct evidence for free will, but the quantum enigma
> requires it and it is possible."*
>
> I'll know if I agree or disagree with him about that as soon as he tells
> me what the hell "free will" is supposed to mean.
>
> And Kaufman has said some things that I can't make heads or tails out of,
> such as:
>
> *"Evolution creates the very possibilities into which it becomes, without
> "selection" "acting" to achieve the very adjacent possible opportunities
> into which it becomes."*
>
> Huh?
>
> John K Clark
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv0AaKXGUiD-a5w7kxnK6VRRi6qqnUTJ60t%3DKGiWuuV49g%40mail.gmail.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv0AaKXGUiD-a5w7kxnK6VRRi6qqnUTJ60t%3DKGiWuuV49g%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>
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From efc at swisscows.email  Thu Jun  8 21:53:01 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2023 23:53:01 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] India and the periodic table
In-Reply-To: <035a01d99839$67a25530$36e6ff90$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901d9949c$ca0ae160$5e20a420$@rainier66.com>
 <698ee512-205d-e93a-21d3-7ef08cb4d3f6@swisscows.email>
 <002301d99579$7ea11e50$7be35af0$@rainier66.com>
 <80d96bf6-3239-2c3d-49b5-ad5082a0b517@swisscows.email>
 <035a01d99839$67a25530$36e6ff90$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <63af0a72-09e5-2f08-0ec1-cd367f750edc@swisscows.email>

Hello spike,

On Mon, 5 Jun 2023, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:

>>> ... It sure feels that way from my perspective Daniel.  There seems to be
>>> a big subjectivist push, where every person is entitled to define
>>> their own reality, ... spike
>
>> ...I've seen this trend in sweden too. What I find interesting is that this
> trend also seems to push like minded people of the opposite tradition ...
>
> I have been pondering how marketing and advertisement industry can
> capitalize on the trend.  Still thinking on that one.
>

Strangely enough I was discussing the state of the marketing art today
with one of my business partners who does work part time for a global
marketing/PR company. He works mostly with US tech companies and told me
of an interesting dilemma for PR people and companies.

Do you go left or right? And if you go one way, and it doesn't work, how
do you back out without losing even more?

The case study he referred to was budweiser beer who apparently wanted
to expand their markets. They put a beer can in the hand of a trans
person, and all of a sudden the conservatives who enjoy their beer
started boycotting it.

Then they tried to explained themselves, and this in turn alienated the
left, so their sales tanked even more.

I propose "the third way" where companies return to their roots and only
focus on long term profit and skip the politics.

In my small company it works wonders and I attract brilliants
technologists who are tired of diversity and politics in the workplace
and just want to work.

I wonder, on a global scale, if this might be a trend. Imagine buying a
screw driver that is _just a screw driver_! No posturing, no life style,
no political affiliation, it's just a tool that you use! ;)

What do you think? Could this be a new trend?

Best regards, 
Daniel


From efc at swisscows.email  Thu Jun  8 21:57:17 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2023 23:57:17 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] tinnitus
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbWYjkoisT1CD0WdoFZuKFS-ijH+ERV-6k_sRHB-K7UwA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa53U5yMWVaJ=MVMnf9yfPanyX+mrpjO++7yCooqo9pMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyeKX+b8TrCMQ+=UdWpNHQeETL-Uh3SmQ_gOEWTgwLTSLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbKdZ0tq+BCZa-NoL6XiGBCnDWXTh_XVAUKGNM-mYS_Esg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbWYjkoisT1CD0WdoFZuKFS-ijH+ERV-6k_sRHB-K7UwA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <86214726-9b8b-3ffe-3b49-70442ea04c3d@swisscows.email>



On Tue, 6 Jun 2023, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:

> Here's one more:? I get neck troubles when I read.? I hold my book and look down at it for long periods of time.? My PT woman told me
> this:? put two fat pillows on your lap so the book and your eyes will be at the same height.? I bought a book holder to go?on top.?
> ?I can sit with both hands free except to turn pages.? Fixed my neck aches and cricks.? ? ?Who cares if it looks silly?? bill w??

Brilliant! Will try! I don't know if it's old age, or some hidden damage
from my boxing days, or accumulated damage from long times spent with
books and laptops in awkward positions, but the last 6 months I've
started to get small bursts of neck pain if I make sudden head movements
at a certain very narrow angle.

Changing my pillow made small improvements, but not long lasting. I
suspect it is a combination of bad posture when sleeping and your book
problem above and the same for a laptop, so I'll try your advice for
books and laptops and let's see if it improves.

Thank you for the advice!

Best regards, 
Daniel


> 
> On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 7:21?PM Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>       On Tue, Jun 6, 2023, 6:37 PM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>       My wife does, but make the remedy public!
> 
> On 2023. Jun 6., Tue at 15:27, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>       If any of you have this pest, respond to me.? I have a way of getting rid of some of it.
> 
> 
> Ikr, as if the "one weird trick" that cures tinnitus is being duped into watching insufferable videos then trusting $x00 pill
> blend will fix everything (yeah, thc is great but don't oversell it)
> 
> For all future helpful health info, don't ask to share; just share :)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 
> 
>

From msd001 at gmail.com  Thu Jun  8 22:15:41 2023
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2023 18:15:41 -0400
Subject: [ExI] India and the periodic table
In-Reply-To: <63af0a72-09e5-2f08-0ec1-cd367f750edc@swisscows.email>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901d9949c$ca0ae160$5e20a420$@rainier66.com>
 <698ee512-205d-e93a-21d3-7ef08cb4d3f6@swisscows.email>
 <002301d99579$7ea11e50$7be35af0$@rainier66.com>
 <80d96bf6-3239-2c3d-49b5-ad5082a0b517@swisscows.email>
 <035a01d99839$67a25530$36e6ff90$@rainier66.com>
 <63af0a72-09e5-2f08-0ec1-cd367f750edc@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdb+8o3M+eMWuhy8oEz5BRu3VF3ib-Jv8D8KAHvtVYuCVTg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 8, 2023, 5:55 PM efc--- via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> I wonder, on a global scale, if this might be a trend. Imagine buying a
> screw driver that is _just a screw driver_! No posturing, no life style,
> no political affiliation, it's just a tool that you use! ;)
>
> What do you think? Could this be a new trend?
>

Nope.  How you screw is as important as who you screw.  I need to social
signal my values as soon as your company tells me what my values should be.

tbh though, I've been considering what chatGPT/et al. are going to do
with/to marketing... as each person's passively-gathered intel is exploited
to write compelling "offers" that maximize profit at ideal customer
acquisition cost.

>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Jun  9 00:40:52 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2023 17:40:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] India and the periodic table
In-Reply-To: <63af0a72-09e5-2f08-0ec1-cd367f750edc@swisscows.email>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901d9949c$ca0ae160$5e20a420$@rainier66.com>
 <698ee512-205d-e93a-21d3-7ef08cb4d3f6@swisscows.email>
 <002301d99579$7ea11e50$7be35af0$@rainier66.com>
 <80d96bf6-3239-2c3d-49b5-ad5082a0b517@swisscows.email>
 <035a01d99839$67a25530$36e6ff90$@rainier66.com>
 <63af0a72-09e5-2f08-0ec1-cd367f750edc@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <01bc01d99a6b$0b816d70$22844850$@rainier66.com>


...> On Behalf Of efc--- via extropy-chat
...

>...I propose "the third way" where companies return to their roots and only
focus on long term profit and skip the politics...

The third way you propose, if anything, is an understatement.  I would
emphasize that the CEO is hired specifically to maximize profits for the
shareholders.  It is one's ethical duty to do the job one is hired to do.
The CEO is not hired to right every wrong in society.  That is what we elect
politicians to do.  CEOs should check their politics at the door, focus on
making money.  That's their job, their only job, and their duty.

>...What do you think? Could this be a new trend?

>...Best regards,
Daniel


The Bud Light signal is hard to ignore.  It was an object lesson that most
CEOs heard loud and clear.  A few missed it.  Target missed the target,
ended up alienating nearly everybody.  Fire that CEO, get one who will keep
quiet, serve everyone, don't participate in society's culture wars.

It would be nice of the universities would likewise back away from culture
wars, but those seem to be the primary battle fields.

spike




From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Jun  9 00:57:49 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2023 17:57:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the periodic table
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdb+8o3M+eMWuhy8oEz5BRu3VF3ib-Jv8D8KAHvtVYuCVTg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901d9949c$ca0ae160$5e20a420$@rainier66.com>
 <698ee512-205d-e93a-21d3-7ef08cb4d3f6@swisscows.email>
 <002301d99579$7ea11e50$7be35af0$@rainier66.com>
 <80d96bf6-3239-2c3d-49b5-ad5082a0b517@swisscows.email>
 <035a01d99839$67a25530$36e6ff90$@rainier66.com>
 <63af0a72-09e5-2f08-0ec1-cd367f750edc@swisscows.email>
 <CAOJFdb+8o3M+eMWuhy8oEz5BRu3VF3ib-Jv8D8KAHvtVYuCVTg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01dd01d99a6d$6ac70180$40550480$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat
?

 

>?tbh though, I've been considering what chatGPT/et al. are going to do with/to marketing... maximize profit at ideal customer acquisition cost?  Mike

 

 

 

I have been kinda quiet lately because I have been studying up on how GPT systems work and now I understand why we can?t run these things on our phones or typical home computers, but if one is fortunate enough to be able to afford a big number of high-end processors, GPUs, and one is patient, it can be done.  If one has an application which does not require high speed answers simulating conversation for instance, the computing requirement is greatly reduced.  If one has an application where 5 words per minute is acceptable, then such things are easily within the range of the ordinary proletariat.

 

If so, then we can imagine a GPT toolkit, where the user doesn?t need to be a coding expert.  Rather, the consumer would supply the chat-bot with training material, selected in accordance with that user?s personal biases and preconceived notion of truth, train a personal chat-bot on that, only.

 

I gave the example of the material in the fish bowl where I went to college, with the approximately 200 billion words of more or less similar world view.  But one wouldn?t really need all that, nor would the product of the fish bowl trained GPT be likely to produce an interesting result.  

 

In any case? it is easy enough to see a GPT-toolkit coming, so that everyone can try training one?s own chatbot by choosing the training material carefully.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

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From gadersd at gmail.com  Fri Jun  9 01:29:23 2023
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2023 21:29:23 -0400
Subject: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the periodic
 table
In-Reply-To: <01dd01d99a6d$6ac70180$40550480$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901d9949c$ca0ae160$5e20a420$@rainier66.com>
 <698ee512-205d-e93a-21d3-7ef08cb4d3f6@swisscows.email>
 <002301d99579$7ea11e50$7be35af0$@rainier66.com>
 <80d96bf6-3239-2c3d-49b5-ad5082a0b517@swisscows.email>
 <035a01d99839$67a25530$36e6ff90$@rainier66.com>
 <63af0a72-09e5-2f08-0ec1-cd367f750edc@swisscows.email>
 <CAOJFdb+8o3M+eMWuhy8oEz5BRu3VF3ib-Jv8D8KAHvtVYuCVTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <01dd01d99a6d$6ac70180$40550480$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <56705EC6-1245-43FF-B7E8-C9EED5BE26DC@gmail.com>

> In any case? it is easy enough to see a GPT-toolkit coming, so that everyone can try training one?s own chatbot by choosing the training material carefully.

There is a huge difference between inference and training. You are correct that the masses can run some of the smaller models on CPUs and consumer GPUs. But that is just inference. Training these models requires much more compute. However, there have been quite a few quantization hacks that may enable training on low end hardware. I?m not sure how significant the tradeoff will be but the community has surprised me with the tricks it has come up with.

The wisdom used to be that one had to have a $12000 GPU to do anything interesting, but ever since the llama.cpp guy got a model running on a MacBook I think any declaration of hard limitations should be thrown out.

We may very well see an explosion of user trained models that blow up the internet.

> On Jun 8, 2023, at 8:57 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
>  
>  
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org>> On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat
> ?
>  
> >?tbh though, I've been considering what chatGPT/et al. are going to do with/to marketing... maximize profit at ideal customer acquisition cost?  Mike
>  
>  
>  
> I have been kinda quiet lately because I have been studying up on how GPT systems work and now I understand why we can?t run these things on our phones or typical home computers, but if one is fortunate enough to be able to afford a big number of high-end processors, GPUs, and one is patient, it can be done.  If one has an application which does not require high speed answers simulating conversation for instance, the computing requirement is greatly reduced.  If one has an application where 5 words per minute is acceptable, then such things are easily within the range of the ordinary proletariat.
>  
> If so, then we can imagine a GPT toolkit, where the user doesn?t need to be a coding expert.  Rather, the consumer would supply the chat-bot with training material, selected in accordance with that user?s personal biases and preconceived notion of truth, train a personal chat-bot on that, only.
>  
> I gave the example of the material in the fish bowl where I went to college, with the approximately 200 billion words of more or less similar world view.  But one wouldn?t really need all that, nor would the product of the fish bowl trained GPT be likely to produce an interesting result.  
>  
> In any case? it is easy enough to see a GPT-toolkit coming, so that everyone can try training one?s own chatbot by choosing the training material carefully.
>  
> spike
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat <http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Jun  9 01:51:29 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2023 18:51:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the periodic
 table
In-Reply-To: <56705EC6-1245-43FF-B7E8-C9EED5BE26DC@gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901d9949c$ca0ae160$5e20a420$@rainier66.com>
 <698ee512-205d-e93a-21d3-7ef08cb4d3f6@swisscows.email>
 <002301d99579$7ea11e50$7be35af0$@rainier66.com>
 <80d96bf6-3239-2c3d-49b5-ad5082a0b517@swisscows.email>
 <035a01d99839$67a25530$36e6ff90$@rainier66.com>
 <63af0a72-09e5-2f08-0ec1-cd367f750edc@swisscows.email>
 <CAOJFdb+8o3M+eMWuhy8oEz5BRu3VF3ib-Jv8D8KAHvtVYuCVTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <01dd01d99a6d$6ac70180$40550480$@rainier66.com>
 <56705EC6-1245-43FF-B7E8-C9EED5BE26DC@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <022701d99a74$e91dfa00$bb59ee00$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Gadersd via extropy-chat
Sent: Thursday, 8 June, 2023 6:29 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: Gadersd <gadersd at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the periodic table

 

In any case? it is easy enough to see a GPT-toolkit coming, so that everyone can try training one?s own chatbot by choosing the training material carefully.

 

There is a huge difference between inference and training. You are correct that the masses can run some of the smaller models on CPUs and consumer GPUs. But that is just inference. Training these models requires much more compute. However, there have been quite a few quantization hacks that may enable training on low end hardware. I?m not sure how significant the tradeoff will be but the community has surprised me with the tricks it has come up with.

 

The wisdom used to be that one had to have a $12000 GPU to do anything interesting, but ever since the llama.cpp guy got a model running on a MacBook I think any declaration of hard limitations should be thrown out.

 

We may very well see an explosion of user trained models that blow up the internet?

 

 

 

 

Hi Gadersd, 

 

Most of us have unused background processor power that is unused.  For many years I ran a math program called Prime95, where we were collectively searching for the next Mersenne prime.  There was SETI at home, which was analyzing signals from deep space looking for ET, but in all that, for about the past 30 years, I theorized that eventually the killer app would show up.  It would be something that takes mind-boggling amounts of CPU cycles to calculate, but something that is well-suited for doing in the background on many parallel processors.  Custom chatbots are an example (I think) of that magic process I have been anticipating for nearly three decades.

 

Since I think you know more about the computing requirements to do the training than I do, I ask you: given a pool of a million volunteers with ordinary consumer-level CPUs but willing to allow the processes to run in the background, could not anyone with a pile of training material use that background computing resource and create a custom GPT?  

 

Next question for Gad or anyone else: is it not clear there is a huge market available?  I gave one example: a chat-bot trained on the books in the fish bowl, all of it in the 200 class in the old Dewey decimal system.  The result isn?t any good for any question outside what is found in the 200 class, but plenty of market exists and will persist, that is answered by the 200 class.

 

Gad or anyone, could we  use volunteer background computing resources the way Prime95 has been doing all these years?

 

spike

 

 

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From maxmore01 at gmail.com  Fri Jun  9 02:44:44 2023
From: maxmore01 at gmail.com (Max More)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2023 19:44:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Extropic Thoughts blog on Substack
Message-ID: <CAKJCwt9wxYBopVYxKsEizRCU++bxfcLQwWtk0uMmjHvYJU6wPQ@mail.gmail.com>

I hear that some posters here have questions about my blog, Extropic
Thoughts. I started it less than three months ago to develop and promulgate
extropic thinking. Naturally, a current big topic is AI. I?m pushing back
against the AI doomers, panickers, catastrophists, worries, and regulators.



Please subscribe to the blog. It?s free. However, paid subscriptions
($5/month) are very welcome and will support the writer and encourage more
writing.



https://maxmore.substack.com/



Top post:

Against AI Doomerism, For AI Progress

https://maxmore.substack.com/p/against-ai-doomerism-for-ai-progress



Also on AI:

Gary Marcus?s AI Regulation Error

https://maxmore.substack.com/p/gary-marcuss-ai-regulation-error



The Don?t Panic About AI Collection

https://maxmore.substack.com/p/the-dont-panic-about-ai-collection



Compilation Post: Artificial Intelligence

https://maxmore.substack.com/p/compilation-post-artificial-intelligence



Also relevant:

Beyond Caution: The Party of Life

https://maxmore.substack.com/p/beyond-caution-the-party-of-life



Embrace the Future

23 years ago Bill Joy Fortunately Failed to Stop Progress

https://maxmore.substack.com/p/embrace-the-future



My most recent:

Overcoming Population Arguments to Living Longer

https://maxmore.substack.com/p/overcoming-population-arguments-to



-- 
Max More, PhD
Director of Communications
Biostasis Technologies
Blog: https://maxmore.substack.com/
Editor, *The transhumanist Reader*
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From maxmore01 at gmail.com  Fri Jun  9 02:51:47 2023
From: maxmore01 at gmail.com (Max More)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2023 19:51:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Also the Biostasis Standard blog
Message-ID: <CAKJCwt8BVGU05KTf86a5rtvgymZGxBDrGenxBeiz2U2Uxzw-jg@mail.gmail.com>

I should have also mentioned that I have regular blog posts in my
organization's Biostasis Standard blog:

https://biostasis.substack.com/

-- 
Max More, PhD
Director of Communications
Biostasis Technologies
Blog: https://maxmore.substack.com/
Editor, *The transhumanist Reader*
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From gadersd at gmail.com  Fri Jun  9 02:53:06 2023
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2023 22:53:06 -0400
Subject: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the periodic
 table
In-Reply-To: <022701d99a74$e91dfa00$bb59ee00$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901d9949c$ca0ae160$5e20a420$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <DACA5E18-3DBA-46D2-8B91-67DF83599E31@gmail.com>

> Since I think you know more about the computing requirements to do the training than I do, I ask you: given a pool of a million volunteers with ordinary consumer-level CPUs but willing to allow the processes to run in the background, could not anyone with a pile of training material use that background computing resource and create a custom GPT?

The main challenge for this type of parallel computing is the way the architecture is designed for these models. Some computations, such as cryptocurrency mining, are easy to break into very small independent subprocesses. However, the transformer model underlying language models does not have this feature. A significant amount of communication must occur between the processes computing the transformer output. If the processes tightly coupled such as in a GPU this poses little issue. However, if the processes are distributed far apart in space the communication overhead destroys the rate of computation. This is a significant bottleneck for distributed background computing.

Most of the current transformer architectures are dense, meaning full connectivity. It may be possible to modify the architecture to make it more sparse, such as the switch transformer which Google has experimented with, to reduce the communication bottleneck.

> Next question for Gad or anyone else: is it not clear there is a huge market available?  I gave one example: a chat-bot trained on the books in the fish bowl, all of it in the 200 class in the old Dewey decimal system.  The result isn?t any good for any question outside what is found in the 200 class, but plenty of market exists and will persist, that is answered by the 200 class.

I think there is a market for personalized chatbots. The current proprietary chatbots are limited in the dialogs they are permitted to engage in. The only way for someone to experience the full extent of their fantasies is to interact with an unfiltered model. 

> On Jun 8, 2023, at 9:51 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
>  
>  
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org>> On Behalf Of Gadersd via extropy-chat
> Sent: Thursday, 8 June, 2023 6:29 PM
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>>
> Cc: Gadersd <gadersd at gmail.com <mailto:gadersd at gmail.com>>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the periodic table
>  
>> In any case? it is easy enough to see a GPT-toolkit coming, so that everyone can try training one?s own chatbot by choosing the training material carefully.
>  
> There is a huge difference between inference and training. You are correct that the masses can run some of the smaller models on CPUs and consumer GPUs. But that is just inference. Training these models requires much more compute. However, there have been quite a few quantization hacks that may enable training on low end hardware. I?m not sure how significant the tradeoff will be but the community has surprised me with the tricks it has come up with.
>  
> The wisdom used to be that one had to have a $12000 GPU to do anything interesting, but ever since the llama.cpp guy got a model running on a MacBook I think any declaration of hard limitations should be thrown out.
>  
> We may very well see an explosion of user trained models that blow up the internet?
>  
>  
>  
>  
> Hi Gadersd, 
>  
> Most of us have unused background processor power that is unused.  For many years I ran a math program called Prime95, where we were collectively searching for the next Mersenne prime.  There was SETI at home, which was analyzing signals from deep space looking for ET, but in all that, for about the past 30 years, I theorized that eventually the killer app would show up.  It would be something that takes mind-boggling amounts of CPU cycles to calculate, but something that is well-suited for doing in the background on many parallel processors.  Custom chatbots are an example (I think) of that magic process I have been anticipating for nearly three decades.
>  
> Since I think you know more about the computing requirements to do the training than I do, I ask you: given a pool of a million volunteers with ordinary consumer-level CPUs but willing to allow the processes to run in the background, could not anyone with a pile of training material use that background computing resource and create a custom GPT?  
>  
> Next question for Gad or anyone else: is it not clear there is a huge market available?  I gave one example: a chat-bot trained on the books in the fish bowl, all of it in the 200 class in the old Dewey decimal system.  The result isn?t any good for any question outside what is found in the 200 class, but plenty of market exists and will persist, that is answered by the 200 class.
>  
> Gad or anyone, could we  use volunteer background computing resources the way Prime95 has been doing all these years?
>  
> spike
>  
>  
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat <http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Jun  9 10:55:03 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 11:55:03 +0100
Subject: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the periodic
 table
In-Reply-To: <DACA5E18-3DBA-46D2-8B91-67DF83599E31@gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAL_armgu9GegqYfz-2ZsSvqZvn0KGcQ-s2gToFVWn-oSEu8q+g@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 9 Jun 2023 at 04:00, Gadersd via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
<snip>
>
> I think there is a market for personalized chatbots. The current proprietary chatbots are limited in the dialogs they are permitted to engage in. The only way for someone to experience the full extent of their fantasies is to interact with an unfiltered model.
> _______________________________________________


At present, it is not possible to train an LLM on a personal computer.
The smaller LLMs that can be installed on PCs are pre-trained, though
there is a growing list of available small LLMs with different types
of training.
Their advantage is that no personal data is sent to Google, Meta, Amazon, etc.
Your interaction with these small LLMs will be kept private.

As Gadersd says, hopefully there will be progress to enable LLMs to be
trained on PCs, but that is awaiting design breakthroughs.



BillK


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Jun  9 12:09:38 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 07:09:38 -0500
Subject: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the periodic
 table
In-Reply-To: <01dd01d99a6d$6ac70180$40550480$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901d9949c$ca0ae160$5e20a420$@rainier66.com>
 <698ee512-205d-e93a-21d3-7ef08cb4d3f6@swisscows.email>
 <002301d99579$7ea11e50$7be35af0$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZm_GpJPeQcs-yHf0NVBsaS9BRg7BMndtyrj1xk95zo+A@mail.gmail.com>

Why would you want a kit to build a bicycle when you can travel by
supersonic jet?   bill

On Thu, Jun 8, 2023 at 7:59?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat
> *?*
>
>
>
> >?tbh though, I've been considering what chatGPT/et al. are going to do
> with/to marketing... maximize profit at ideal customer acquisition cost?
> Mike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I have been kinda quiet lately because I have been studying up on how GPT
> systems work and now I understand why we can?t run these things on our
> phones or typical home computers, but if one is fortunate enough to be able
> to afford a big number of high-end processors, GPUs, and one is patient, it
> can be done.  If one has an application which does not require high speed
> answers simulating conversation for instance, the computing requirement is
> greatly reduced.  If one has an application where 5 words per minute is
> acceptable, then such things are easily within the range of the ordinary
> proletariat.
>
>
>
> If so, then we can imagine a GPT toolkit, where the user doesn?t need to
> be a coding expert.  Rather, the consumer would supply the chat-bot with
> training material, selected in accordance with that user?s personal biases
> and preconceived notion of truth, train a personal chat-bot on that, only.
>
>
>
> I gave the example of the material in the fish bowl where I went to
> college, with the approximately 200 billion words of more or less similar
> world view.  But one wouldn?t really need all that, nor would the product
> of the fish bowl trained GPT be likely to produce an interesting result.
>
>
>
> In any case? it is easy enough to see a GPT-toolkit coming, so that
> everyone can try training one?s own chatbot by choosing the training
> material carefully.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Jun  9 12:24:52 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 05:24:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the periodic
 table
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZm_GpJPeQcs-yHf0NVBsaS9BRg7BMndtyrj1xk95zo+A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901d9949c$ca0ae160$5e20a420$@rainier66.com>
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 <002301d99579$7ea11e50$7be35af0$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <004601d99acd$6543b6d0$2fcb2470$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the periodic table

 

Why would you want a kit to build a bicycle when you can travel by supersonic jet?   Billw

 

 

Supersonic jets cannot get to all the places the bicycle can go.

 

ChatGPT doesn?t know the material in the fish bowl to anything like that level of detail.  We could create a specialty GPT that is as versatile as a bicycle for navigating the neighborhood.  The bicycle is the tool of choice for navigating the destination neighborhood once the supersonic jet gets one in the approximate area.

 

spike

 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Jun  9 12:36:35 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 07:36:35 -0500
Subject: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the periodic
 table
In-Reply-To: <004601d99acd$6543b6d0$2fcb2470$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901d9949c$ca0ae160$5e20a420$@rainier66.com>
 <698ee512-205d-e93a-21d3-7ef08cb4d3f6@swisscows.email>
 <002301d99579$7ea11e50$7be35af0$@rainier66.com>
 <80d96bf6-3239-2c3d-49b5-ad5082a0b517@swisscows.email>
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Message-ID: <CAO+xQEab=LUCWdOPoJMyUDbztB13s2-mz1qJVxhJ=LXusoBkNw@mail.gmail.com>

Good answer!  Could you create your own bot that researches the area you
are interested in that is much better than what the gpt can do?  If so, all
literature research will be done by your bot, saving you oodles of time.
Then you can market it to other researchers in your area who don't want to
take the time to create their own bot.  Eh?  Buttloads of money? Surely
companies will spring up creating specialty bots for scientists.  Problems
- getting irrelevant results, and failing to get relevant ones.  bill w

On Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 7:27?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the
> periodic table
>
>
>
> Why would you want a kit to build a bicycle when you can travel by
> supersonic jet?   Billw
>
>
>
>
>
> Supersonic jets cannot get to all the places the bicycle can go.
>
>
>
> ChatGPT doesn?t know the material in the fish bowl to anything like that
> level of detail.  We could create a specialty GPT that is as versatile as a
> bicycle for navigating the neighborhood.  The bicycle is the tool of choice
> for navigating the destination neighborhood once the supersonic jet gets
> one in the approximate area.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Jun  9 12:52:32 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 05:52:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the periodic
 table
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEab=LUCWdOPoJMyUDbztB13s2-mz1qJVxhJ=LXusoBkNw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901d9949c$ca0ae160$5e20a420$@rainier66.com>
 <698ee512-205d-e93a-21d3-7ef08cb4d3f6@swisscows.email>
 <002301d99579$7ea11e50$7be35af0$@rainier66.com>
 <80d96bf6-3239-2c3d-49b5-ad5082a0b517@swisscows.email>
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 <01dd01d99a6d$6ac70180$40550480$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZm_GpJPeQcs-yHf0NVBsaS9BRg7BMndtyrj1xk95zo+A@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <006201d99ad1$429f9fa0$c7dedee0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the periodic table

 

Good answer!  Could you create your own bot that researches the area you are interested in that is much better than what the gpt can do?  If so, all literature research will be done by your bot, saving you oodles of time.  Then you can market it to other researchers in your area who don't want to take the time to create their own bot.  Eh?  Buttloads of money? Surely companies will spring up creating specialty bots for scientists.  Problems - getting irrelevant results, and failing to get relevant ones.  Billw

 

 

 

Ja that is exactly where I am going with your bicycle/jet analogy.  A jet can only get you approximately where you need to go.  The detail work is better done with the bicycle.

 

I am told ChatGPT is trained on about a trillion words (or tokens.)  OK how much is that?  If you start doing some BOTECs, you find out it isn?t that much.  The fish bowl contains somewhere around 200 billion words, give or take a factor of 2, but that library where it is housed contained perhaps 2 trillion words back in the olden days, and that library was grossly insufficient for so many areas of research even then.  It was filled with material that ChatGPT doesn?t know much about.  ChatGPT knows about some of it.

 

So what if? we could create specialty GPTs for specialty tasks, such as specific genealogy for instance.  History of Jackson Mississippi, in obsessive detail for instance, where it knows every street, every person who lived on that street and when they lived there, every graduate from that Brandon High School, every store along the local merchant row, and so on.  

 

ChatGPT would fly us to the approximate area, then more specific, and possibly individually-owned GPTs would navigate the neighborhoods.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Jun  9 13:07:06 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 08:07:06 -0500
Subject: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the periodic
 table
In-Reply-To: <006201d99ad1$429f9fa0$c7dedee0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901d9949c$ca0ae160$5e20a420$@rainier66.com>
 <698ee512-205d-e93a-21d3-7ef08cb4d3f6@swisscows.email>
 <002301d99579$7ea11e50$7be35af0$@rainier66.com>
 <80d96bf6-3239-2c3d-49b5-ad5082a0b517@swisscows.email>
 <035a01d99839$67a25530$36e6ff90$@rainier66.com>
 <63af0a72-09e5-2f08-0ec1-cd367f750edc@swisscows.email>
 <CAOJFdb+8o3M+eMWuhy8oEz5BRu3VF3ib-Jv8D8KAHvtVYuCVTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <01dd01d99a6d$6ac70180$40550480$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZm_GpJPeQcs-yHf0NVBsaS9BRg7BMndtyrj1xk95zo+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <004601d99acd$6543b6d0$2fcb2470$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEab=LUCWdOPoJMyUDbztB13s2-mz1qJVxhJ=LXusoBkNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <006201d99ad1$429f9fa0$c7dedee0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYQzLTaKS8hF+WMCAn0YC=jCmw6T3H4Q52914mKCX3PBw@mail.gmail.com>

Why couldn't the big AIs just upload the specialty ones?  Or create them
itself?   bill w

On Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 7:54?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the
> periodic table
>
>
>
> Good answer!  Could you create your own bot that researches the area you
> are interested in that is much better than what the gpt can do?  If so, all
> literature research will be done by your bot, saving you oodles of time.
> Then you can market it to other researchers in your area who don't want to
> take the time to create their own bot.  Eh?  Buttloads of money? Surely
> companies will spring up creating specialty bots for scientists.  Problems
> - getting irrelevant results, and failing to get relevant ones.  Billw
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Ja that is exactly where I am going with your bicycle/jet analogy.  A jet
> can only get you approximately where you need to go.  The detail work is
> better done with the bicycle.
>
>
>
> I am told ChatGPT is trained on about a trillion words (or tokens.)  OK
> how much is that?  If you start doing some BOTECs, you find out it isn?t
> that much.  The fish bowl contains somewhere around 200 billion words, give
> or take a factor of 2, but that library where it is housed contained
> perhaps 2 trillion words back in the olden days, and that library was
> grossly insufficient for so many areas of research even then.  It was
> filled with material that ChatGPT doesn?t know much about.  ChatGPT knows
> about some of it.
>
>
>
> So what if? we could create specialty GPTs for specialty tasks, such as
> specific genealogy for instance.  History of Jackson Mississippi, in
> obsessive detail for instance, where it knows every street, every person
> who lived on that street and when they lived there, every graduate from
> that Brandon High School, every store along the local merchant row, and so
> on.
>
>
>
> ChatGPT would fly us to the approximate area, then more specific, and
> possibly individually-owned GPTs would navigate the neighborhoods.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From efc at swisscows.email  Fri Jun  9 13:50:53 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 15:50:53 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] India and the periodic table
In-Reply-To: <01bc01d99a6b$0b816d70$22844850$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901d9949c$ca0ae160$5e20a420$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <bb616c30-1760-c7e8-99df-41580f796a1a@swisscows.email>

Hello spike,

On Thu, 8 Jun 2023, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:

>> ...I propose "the third way" where companies return to their roots and only
> focus on long term profit and skip the politics...
>
> The third way you propose, if anything, is an understatement.  I would
> emphasize that the CEO is hired specifically to maximize profits for the
> shareholders.  It is one's ethical duty to do the job one is hired to do.

Oh how far we've gotten from that simple, rational and logical model. =(
I agree with you, but the past 2 years I've met with many CEOs and
chairmans of the boards of small to mid sized swedish companies, and
they are all about diversity, inclusivity, equity, greenwashing and
anything else that you might read in your center/left newspaper.

But I believe that we'll see more CEOs eventually who will revert back
to Classic Capitalism (TM).

> The CEO is not hired to right every wrong in society.  That is what we elect
> politicians to do.  CEOs should check their politics at the door, focus on
> making money.  That's their job, their only job, and their duty.

Or so one would think. But at least in sweden, that is a minority point
of view. About the US I think it is one of those polarizing questions.

>> ...What do you think? Could this be a new trend?
>
>> ...Best regards,
> Daniel
>
>
> The Bud Light signal is hard to ignore.  It was an object lesson that most
> CEOs heard loud and clear.  A few missed it.  Target missed the target,
> ended up alienating nearly everybody.  Fire that CEO, get one who will keep
> quiet, serve everyone, don't participate in society's culture wars.

Where the CEOs of Bud Light and Target fired in the end?

> It would be nice of the universities would likewise back away from culture
> wars, but those seem to be the primary battle fields.

I read something about, was it... Florida, trying to roll back the
politics in some public schools and this generated a lot of tears among
students and faculty.

Best regards, 
Daniel


> spike
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


From gadersd at gmail.com  Fri Jun  9 14:34:10 2023
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 10:34:10 -0400
Subject: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the periodic
 table
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYQzLTaKS8hF+WMCAn0YC=jCmw6T3H4Q52914mKCX3PBw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901d9949c$ca0ae160$5e20a420$@rainier66.com>
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 <01dd01d99a6d$6ac70180$40550480$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <6AAB4C05-A629-4216-B60A-7C8BA9323817@gmail.com>

> Why couldn't the big AIs just upload the specialty ones?  Or create them itself?

AI cannot currently create AI in a different way than we can. All the models are created in the same way: training on data. The specialized models are created by fine tuning on data from a particular domain such as chemical engineering.

It may be that the general models become good enough on specialized tasks that there is no longer a strong need for specialized models. We are quickly moving in that direction. GPT4 can essentially already do any knowledge task with good competence. In that case the only use cases I can think of for specialized models is privacy, circumventing forbidden topics, or when achieving maximum possible performance is needed.

If anyone has unique information such as genealogy or town history that isn?t publicly available, consider putting it up online somewhere so that the large models can consume it on the next internet-wide training run. Then you may find that GPT(5,6,7) knows it well enough.

> On Jun 9, 2023, at 9:07 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> Why couldn't the big AIs just upload the specialty ones?  Or create them itself?   bill w
> 
> On Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 7:54?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>> wrote:
>  
> 
>  
> 
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org>> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> Subject: Re: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the periodic table
> 
>  
> 
> Good answer!  Could you create your own bot that researches the area you are interested in that is much better than what the gpt can do?  If so, all literature research will be done by your bot, saving you oodles of time.  Then you can market it to other researchers in your area who don't want to take the time to create their own bot.  Eh?  Buttloads of money? Surely companies will spring up creating specialty bots for scientists.  Problems - getting irrelevant results, and failing to get relevant ones.  Billw
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Ja that is exactly where I am going with your bicycle/jet analogy.  A jet can only get you approximately where you need to go.  The detail work is better done with the bicycle.
> 
>  
> 
> I am told ChatGPT is trained on about a trillion words (or tokens.)  OK how much is that?  If you start doing some BOTECs, you find out it isn?t that much.  The fish bowl contains somewhere around 200 billion words, give or take a factor of 2, but that library where it is housed contained perhaps 2 trillion words back in the olden days, and that library was grossly insufficient for so many areas of research even then.  It was filled with material that ChatGPT doesn?t know much about.  ChatGPT knows about some of it.
> 
>  
> 
> So what if? we could create specialty GPTs for specialty tasks, such as specific genealogy for instance.  History of Jackson Mississippi, in obsessive detail for instance, where it knows every street, every person who lived on that street and when they lived there, every graduate from that Brandon High School, every store along the local merchant row, and so on. 
> 
>  
> 
> ChatGPT would fly us to the approximate area, then more specific, and possibly individually-owned GPTs would navigate the neighborhoods.
> 
>  
> 
> spike
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat <http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Jun  9 14:41:59 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 07:41:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the periodic
 table
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYQzLTaKS8hF+WMCAn0YC=jCmw6T3H4Q52914mKCX3PBw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901d9949c$ca0ae160$5e20a420$@rainier66.com>
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 <CAOJFdb+8o3M+eMWuhy8oEz5BRu3VF3ib-Jv8D8KAHvtVYuCVTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <01dd01d99a6d$6ac70180$40550480$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZm_GpJPeQcs-yHf0NVBsaS9BRg7BMndtyrj1xk95zo+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <004601d99acd$6543b6d0$2fcb2470$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEab=LUCWdOPoJMyUDbztB13s2-mz1qJVxhJ=LXusoBkNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <006201d99ad1$429f9fa0$c7dedee0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYQzLTaKS8hF+WMCAn0YC=jCmw6T3H4Q52914mKCX3PBw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00b001d99ae0$8c2bc1d0$a4834570$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Sent: Friday, 9 June, 2023 6:07 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the periodic table

 

Why couldn't the big AIs just upload the specialty ones?  Or create them itself?   bill w

 

 

Billw, it is because large language models are capacity limited.  I have heard (need confirmation or refutation) that ChatGPT was trained on about a trillion tokens (we can use the term ?words? almost interchangeably with tokens (but as I understand it, a token is equivalent to a data bit (but token is a bit of meaning (computer hipsters, is that about right?)))

 

OK so? if the fishbowl contains 0.2 trillion words and a word is approximately equivalent to a token, then the fishbowl alone has gobbled up 20% of the capacity of ChatGPT, and it has not yet begun to contain even 1% of the essential human knowledge base, and squandered it on what plenty of users would consider a nonessential part of the human knowledge base.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Jun  9 14:51:30 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 07:51:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] India and the periodic table
In-Reply-To: <bb616c30-1760-c7e8-99df-41580f796a1a@swisscows.email>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901d9949c$ca0ae160$5e20a420$@rainier66.com>
 <698ee512-205d-e93a-21d3-7ef08cb4d3f6@swisscows.email>
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 <bb616c30-1760-c7e8-99df-41580f796a1a@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <00bf01d99ae1$e0a8fab0$a1faf010$@rainier66.com>


...> On Behalf Of efc--- via extropy-chat
...
> The Bud Light signal is hard to ignore.  It was an object lesson that 
> most CEOs heard loud and clear.  A few missed it.  Target missed the 
> target, ended up alienating nearly everybody.  Fire that CEO, get one 
> who will keep quiet, serve everyone, don't participate in society's
culture wars.

>...Where the CEOs of Bud Light and Target fired in the end?

The Bud Light chief was.  The Target CEO hasn't been fired yet as far as I
know, but his or her epic fail just happened in the past coupla, so there
might not have been enough time yet.

...

>...I read something about, was it... Florida, trying to roll back the
politics in some public schools and this generated a lot of tears among
students and faculty.

Best regards,
Daniel


Ja, the Florida public school system has managed to get itself all tangled
up in culture wars.  Disney World decided to double down on its culture wars
after finding itself on the opposite side as the popular governor of that
state, and things progressed from there.  I consider it an unforced error:
Disney must attract a broad clientele across the entire population, but the
governor of Florida only needs a simple majority to get elected.  It is best
for a business to not get into a pissing match with the governor of Florida.

As for the public schools, it sure seems simple to me.  Teachers, don't get
tangled up in culture wars.  Teach students what students come there to
learn.  Don't try to make little political activists out of them.  You get
fired doing that.  Simple.

spike


From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Jun  9 15:13:16 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 08:13:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the periodic
 table
In-Reply-To: <6AAB4C05-A629-4216-B60A-7C8BA9323817@gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901d9949c$ca0ae160$5e20a420$@rainier66.com>
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 <CAO+xQEYQzLTaKS8hF+WMCAn0YC=jCmw6T3H4Q52914mKCX3PBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6AAB4C05-A629-4216-B60A-7C8BA9323817@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00e201d99ae4$eb5382c0$c1fa8840$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Gadersd via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the periodic table

 

>>?Why couldn't the big AIs just upload the specialty ones?  Or create them itself?

 

>?AI cannot currently create AI in a different way than we can. All the models are created in the same way: training on data. The specialized models are created by fine tuning on data from a particular domain such as chemical engineering?  Gadersd

 

 

I think we will end up with a ChatGPT which knows about a bunch of good specialty chatbots.  

 

Many of us have known or been friends with a super-focused person.  One of my colleagues from a long time ago was Wayne, the go-to guy if you wanted to know anything, any detail, about consumer astronomy products, Astro-photometry for instance, any astronomy-suitable digital camera in consumer range.  Wayne had super focus on that, which was as far as anyone could tell, his only hobby, but oh he was damn good at it.  That man made terrific astronomy photographs, and moved into the digital realm as soon as it became practical in about the late 80s and early 90s.  He spent more money on astrophotometry and astrophotography stuff than he did on his (pathetic) car.

 

So? instead of having ChatGPT learn all that, it would need to only know the software which learned all that.  Just as I found astrophotometry interesting, but not interesting enough to study it every day, I just call Wayne the telescope guy and ask him.  Total cost, lunch for the both of us, done.

 

We could make a fishbowl GPT with the approximately 200 billion tokens in that room, then ChatGPT would only need to know about that and reference it when necessary.  Then we make a modest profit from our digital prophet.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Jun  9 15:42:51 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 10:42:51 -0500
Subject: [ExI] India and the periodic table
In-Reply-To: <bb616c30-1760-c7e8-99df-41580f796a1a@swisscows.email>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901d9949c$ca0ae160$5e20a420$@rainier66.com>
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 <bb616c30-1760-c7e8-99df-41580f796a1a@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEb7L6orUMyqULupX8jABOub8Ta3wqrohH_F-5TydarvLQ@mail.gmail.com>

People in the rest of the world may think that the US is a live and let
live country.  Far from the truth.  We rate on sexual matters as
conservative, at times radically so.  Europeans go to bed on the first
date. That is far from common practice here.  Paranormal sexual things like
crossdressing, make for good humor in conservative circles in the past, but
not now.  My college put on such a show and everyone laughed at the Dean in
drag.  Perhaps they don't do that now.  bill w

On Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 8:53?AM efc--- via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Hello spike,
>
> On Thu, 8 Jun 2023, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:
>
> >> ...I propose "the third way" where companies return to their roots and
> only
> > focus on long term profit and skip the politics...
> >
> > The third way you propose, if anything, is an understatement.  I would
> > emphasize that the CEO is hired specifically to maximize profits for the
> > shareholders.  It is one's ethical duty to do the job one is hired to do.
>
> Oh how far we've gotten from that simple, rational and logical model. =(
> I agree with you, but the past 2 years I've met with many CEOs and
> chairmans of the boards of small to mid sized swedish companies, and
> they are all about diversity, inclusivity, equity, greenwashing and
> anything else that you might read in your center/left newspaper.
>
> But I believe that we'll see more CEOs eventually who will revert back
> to Classic Capitalism (TM).
>
> > The CEO is not hired to right every wrong in society.  That is what we
> elect
> > politicians to do.  CEOs should check their politics at the door, focus
> on
> > making money.  That's their job, their only job, and their duty.
>
> Or so one would think. But at least in sweden, that is a minority point
> of view. About the US I think it is one of those polarizing questions.
>
> >> ...What do you think? Could this be a new trend?
> >
> >> ...Best regards,
> > Daniel
> >
> >
> > The Bud Light signal is hard to ignore.  It was an object lesson that
> most
> > CEOs heard loud and clear.  A few missed it.  Target missed the target,
> > ended up alienating nearly everybody.  Fire that CEO, get one who will
> keep
> > quiet, serve everyone, don't participate in society's culture wars.
>
> Where the CEOs of Bud Light and Target fired in the end?
>
> > It would be nice of the universities would likewise back away from
> culture
> > wars, but those seem to be the primary battle fields.
>
> I read something about, was it... Florida, trying to roll back the
> politics in some public schools and this generated a lot of tears among
> students and faculty.
>
> Best regards,
> Daniel
>
>
> > spike
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Jun  9 15:48:30 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 10:48:30 -0500
Subject: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the periodic
 table
In-Reply-To: <00b001d99ae0$8c2bc1d0$a4834570$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901d9949c$ca0ae160$5e20a420$@rainier66.com>
 <698ee512-205d-e93a-21d3-7ef08cb4d3f6@swisscows.email>
 <002301d99579$7ea11e50$7be35af0$@rainier66.com>
 <80d96bf6-3239-2c3d-49b5-ad5082a0b517@swisscows.email>
 <035a01d99839$67a25530$36e6ff90$@rainier66.com>
 <63af0a72-09e5-2f08-0ec1-cd367f750edc@swisscows.email>
 <CAOJFdb+8o3M+eMWuhy8oEz5BRu3VF3ib-Jv8D8KAHvtVYuCVTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <01dd01d99a6d$6ac70180$40550480$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZm_GpJPeQcs-yHf0NVBsaS9BRg7BMndtyrj1xk95zo+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <004601d99acd$6543b6d0$2fcb2470$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEab=LUCWdOPoJMyUDbztB13s2-mz1qJVxhJ=LXusoBkNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <006201d99ad1$429f9fa0$c7dedee0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYQzLTaKS8hF+WMCAn0YC=jCmw6T3H4Q52914mKCX3PBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b001d99ae0$8c2bc1d0$a4834570$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaxFwwBBB6DQydZzRiznaSqkHquB+suO4f_UQA4n59Q3Q@mail.gmail.com>

Spike we have thumb drives that can hold a trilobite.  Wait, no. A
terabyte.  No, wait.  That would be a piece of a monster.  Anyway, quite a
huge amount of memory, and we have memory problems?  bill w

On Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 9:43?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Sent:* Friday, 9 June, 2023 6:07 AM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the
> periodic table
>
>
>
> Why couldn't the big AIs just upload the specialty ones?  Or create them
> itself?   bill w
>
>
>
>
>
> Billw, it is because large language models are capacity limited.  I have
> heard (need confirmation or refutation) that ChatGPT was trained on about a
> trillion tokens (we can use the term ?words? almost interchangeably with
> tokens (but as I understand it, a token is equivalent to a data bit (but
> token is a bit of meaning (computer hipsters, is that about right?)))
>
>
>
> OK so? if the fishbowl contains 0.2 trillion words and a word is
> approximately equivalent to a token, then the fishbowl alone has gobbled up
> 20% of the capacity of ChatGPT, and it has not yet begun to contain even 1%
> of the essential human knowledge base, and squandered it on what plenty of
> users would consider a nonessential part of the human knowledge base.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Jun  9 16:01:36 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 11:01:36 -0500
Subject: [ExI] for health nuts
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZ0B85LxVBcyoQYwfgUiL6DGtttdWyBmuMXJjx7BE9d6w@mail.gmail.com>

Look into a story today on taurine.

bill w
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Jun  9 16:27:03 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 09:27:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the periodic
 table
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaxFwwBBB6DQydZzRiznaSqkHquB+suO4f_UQA4n59Q3Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901d9949c$ca0ae160$5e20a420$@rainier66.com>
 <698ee512-205d-e93a-21d3-7ef08cb4d3f6@swisscows.email>
 <002301d99579$7ea11e50$7be35af0$@rainier66.com>
 <80d96bf6-3239-2c3d-49b5-ad5082a0b517@swisscows.email>
 <035a01d99839$67a25530$36e6ff90$@rainier66.com>
 <63af0a72-09e5-2f08-0ec1-cd367f750edc@swisscows.email>
 <CAOJFdb+8o3M+eMWuhy8oEz5BRu3VF3ib-Jv8D8KAHvtVYuCVTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <01dd01d99a6d$6ac70180$40550480$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZm_GpJPeQcs-yHf0NVBsaS9BRg7BMndtyrj1xk95zo+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <004601d99acd$6543b6d0$2fcb2470$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEab=LUCWdOPoJMyUDbztB13s2-mz1qJVxhJ=LXusoBkNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <006201d99ad1$429f9fa0$c7dedee0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYQzLTaKS8hF+WMCAn0YC=jCmw6T3H4Q52914mKCX3PBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b001d99ae0$8c2bc1d0$a4834570$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEaxFwwBBB6DQydZzRiznaSqkHquB+suO4f_UQA4n59Q3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003401d99aef$3a805350$af80f9f0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the periodic table

 

>?Spike we have thumb drives that can hold a trilobite.  Wait, no. A terabyte.  No, wait.  That would be a piece of a monster.  Anyway, quite a  huge amount of memory, and we have memory problems?  bill w

 

 

Billw, it isn?t memory, it is the processing needed to do the training once the trillion tokens are available on that trilobite on that memory stick.  ChatGPT doesn?t just look up the answer from a huge text base, it creates probability matrices based on tokens, then looking at all the tokens in the prompt, then calculating what is the most likely next token, stacking them end to end, making sentences and paragraphs.

 

Ever since I started learning about the GPT process, I have been seeing parallels (and some important differences) in how that algorithm works when compared and contrasted with a critical breakthrough in classical controls called the Kalman filter.  The Kalman filter studies a database and creates a probability matrix of correlation coefficients, then figures out a probabilistic prediction.

 

Large language models look at a huge text base, then do their statistical magic to predict the next token.

 

As I understand it, the use of tokens (to represent words) makes the resultant LLM work in any language.  Cool!

 

So it isn?t so much a memory limit (agreed we have plenty of that) to a processor limit, which is why GPUs, super fast Graphical Processor Units become so critically important, which is why NVIDIA stock went thru the roof recently and its market cap is very close to a trillion dollars and might crash thru that 1E12 at any time?

 

https://companiesmarketcap.com/nvidia/marketcap/

 

?because Nvidia makes the best GPUs and GPUs are necessary to make chatbots and Taiwan manufactures Nvidia?s GPUs and why China will likely grab Taiwan at its first opportunity: Taiwan makes the hardware which the world needs to make good AIs, and he who has the most and best AIs owns the planet.

 

Any questions?

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Jun  9 16:39:05 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 11:39:05 -0500
Subject: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the periodic
 table
In-Reply-To: <003401d99aef$3a805350$af80f9f0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901d9949c$ca0ae160$5e20a420$@rainier66.com>
 <698ee512-205d-e93a-21d3-7ef08cb4d3f6@swisscows.email>
 <002301d99579$7ea11e50$7be35af0$@rainier66.com>
 <80d96bf6-3239-2c3d-49b5-ad5082a0b517@swisscows.email>
 <035a01d99839$67a25530$36e6ff90$@rainier66.com>
 <63af0a72-09e5-2f08-0ec1-cd367f750edc@swisscows.email>
 <CAOJFdb+8o3M+eMWuhy8oEz5BRu3VF3ib-Jv8D8KAHvtVYuCVTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <01dd01d99a6d$6ac70180$40550480$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZm_GpJPeQcs-yHf0NVBsaS9BRg7BMndtyrj1xk95zo+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <004601d99acd$6543b6d0$2fcb2470$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEab=LUCWdOPoJMyUDbztB13s2-mz1qJVxhJ=LXusoBkNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <006201d99ad1$429f9fa0$c7dedee0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYQzLTaKS8hF+WMCAn0YC=jCmw6T3H4Q52914mKCX3PBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b001d99ae0$8c2bc1d0$a4834570$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEaxFwwBBB6DQydZzRiznaSqkHquB+suO4f_UQA4n59Q3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401d99aef$3a805350$af80f9f0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYEG42gwiagHfcwbyf0KiRPzwRMHojgLtbW45GHvce+RA@mail.gmail.com>

Taiwan has the best, eh Spike?  Well, what the Hell happened to industrial
espionage?  Enormous dollars are at stake and there are still secrets?  Get
a spy.  Pay him 50 million dollars - cheap at that price.  Why take over a
country?   (also, a tetrabyte would be part of a fish)

bill w

On Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 11:29?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the
> periodic table
>
>
>
> >?Spike we have thumb drives that can hold a trilobite.  Wait, no. A
> terabyte.  No, wait.  That would be a piece of a monster.  Anyway, quite a
> huge amount of memory, and we have memory problems?  bill w
>
>
>
>
>
> Billw, it isn?t memory, it is the processing needed to do the training
> once the trillion tokens are available on that trilobite on that memory
> stick.  ChatGPT doesn?t just look up the answer from a huge text base, it
> creates probability matrices based on tokens, then looking at all the
> tokens in the prompt, then calculating what is the most likely next token,
> stacking them end to end, making sentences and paragraphs.
>
>
>
> Ever since I started learning about the GPT process, I have been seeing
> parallels (and some important differences) in how that algorithm works when
> compared and contrasted with a critical breakthrough in classical controls
> called the Kalman filter.  The Kalman filter studies a database and creates
> a probability matrix of correlation coefficients, then figures out a
> probabilistic prediction.
>
>
>
> Large language models look at a huge text base, then do their statistical
> magic to predict the next token.
>
>
>
> As I understand it, the use of tokens (to represent words) makes the
> resultant LLM work in any language.  Cool!
>
>
>
> So it isn?t so much a memory limit (agreed we have plenty of that) to a
> processor limit, which is why GPUs, super fast Graphical Processor Units
> become so critically important, which is why NVIDIA stock went thru the
> roof recently and its market cap is very close to a trillion dollars and
> might crash thru that 1E12 at any time?
>
>
>
> https://companiesmarketcap.com/nvidia/marketcap/
>
>
>
> ?because Nvidia makes the best GPUs and GPUs are necessary to make
> chatbots and Taiwan manufactures Nvidia?s GPUs and why China will likely
> grab Taiwan at its first opportunity: Taiwan makes the hardware which the
> world needs to make good AIs, and he who has the most and best AIs owns the
> planet.
>
>
>
> Any questions?
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Jun  9 17:13:28 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 10:13:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the periodic
 table
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYEG42gwiagHfcwbyf0KiRPzwRMHojgLtbW45GHvce+RA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901d9949c$ca0ae160$5e20a420$@rainier66.com>
 <698ee512-205d-e93a-21d3-7ef08cb4d3f6@swisscows.email>
 <002301d99579$7ea11e50$7be35af0$@rainier66.com>
 <80d96bf6-3239-2c3d-49b5-ad5082a0b517@swisscows.email>
 <035a01d99839$67a25530$36e6ff90$@rainier66.com>
 <63af0a72-09e5-2f08-0ec1-cd367f750edc@swisscows.email>
 <CAOJFdb+8o3M+eMWuhy8oEz5BRu3VF3ib-Jv8D8KAHvtVYuCVTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <01dd01d99a6d$6ac70180$40550480$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZm_GpJPeQcs-yHf0NVBsaS9BRg7BMndtyrj1xk95zo+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <004601d99acd$6543b6d0$2fcb2470$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEab=LUCWdOPoJMyUDbztB13s2-mz1qJVxhJ=LXusoBkNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <006201d99ad1$429f9fa0$c7dedee0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYQzLTaKS8hF+WMCAn0YC=jCmw6T3H4Q52914mKCX3PBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b001d99ae0$8c2bc1d0$a4834570$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEaxFwwBBB6DQydZzRiznaSqkHquB+suO4f_UQA4n59Q3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401d99aef$3a805350$af80f9f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYEG42gwiagHfcwbyf0KiRPzwRMHoj
 gLtbW45GHvce+RA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005b01d99af5$b59d24e0$20d76ea0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Sent: Friday, 9 June, 2023 9:39 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the periodic table

 

Taiwan has the best, eh Spike?  Well, what the Hell happened to industrial espionage?  Enormous dollars are at stake and there are still secrets?  Get a spy.  Pay him 50 million dollars - cheap at that price.  Why take over a country?   (also, a tetrabyte would be part of a fish)  

 

bill w

 

 

Industrial espionage steals the intellectual property in the factory, but does not steal the actual factory.  Taiwan has the best and most electronic manufacturing on the scale necessary to have the best and fastest GPUs.  America knows *how* to design those GPUs and how to build the factories, but the right combination of tax structure and talent base came together in Taiwan, which made that country ground zero for the manufacture of the most advanced computer chips in the world.

 

But since you ask, I propose a thought experiment sir.

 

Picture in your mind a working person in the USA, or Europe.  OK, do you have your mental image?  Did you picture a guy in an office, perhaps in front of a computer most of the day?  Plenty of us made our living or still make our living that way.

 

That was part 1, now part 2, consider a worker on the continent of Africa, working.  Did you picture a guy grubbing around collecting lithium ore in horrific conditions to satisfy the insatiable appetite in foreign lands for the stuff? 

 

If you did, then, good for you.  You are aware of where we are in human history: the west is charging ahead with clean and green technologies, by compelling people in less fortunate parts of the world to grub around, dig up their land, gather the lithium and other minerals we need to purr around in our clean green cars.

 

OK then, part 3 of the experiment if you are still reading down this far.

 

Picture specialized chatbots which are trained on something very specific, such as the complete US tax code.  Printed out and bound into books, that tax code on a shelf spans the left elbow to the right wing tip on a typical tall man, so can estimate about 1 to 1.5 meters of book, perhaps two billion words.  A chatbot could read all that, and become a soft accountant.  It could be a five dollar alternative to hiring an accounting form.  It might be able to train the soft accountant to read all your receipts, figure out what is deductible, fill out your tax return.  If so, the tax accounting business is headed out the door, and if that can be done with specialized chatbots, so can nearly everything done currently in an office in front of a computer in part 1 of your thought experiment.

 

Conclusion: the guy who owns the capacity to manufacture the hardware to make those bots owns the planet.

 

spike 

 

 

 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Jun  9 17:28:35 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 12:28:35 -0500
Subject: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the periodic
 table
In-Reply-To: <005b01d99af5$b59d24e0$20d76ea0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901d9949c$ca0ae160$5e20a420$@rainier66.com>
 <698ee512-205d-e93a-21d3-7ef08cb4d3f6@swisscows.email>
 <002301d99579$7ea11e50$7be35af0$@rainier66.com>
 <80d96bf6-3239-2c3d-49b5-ad5082a0b517@swisscows.email>
 <035a01d99839$67a25530$36e6ff90$@rainier66.com>
 <63af0a72-09e5-2f08-0ec1-cd367f750edc@swisscows.email>
 <CAOJFdb+8o3M+eMWuhy8oEz5BRu3VF3ib-Jv8D8KAHvtVYuCVTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <01dd01d99a6d$6ac70180$40550480$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZm_GpJPeQcs-yHf0NVBsaS9BRg7BMndtyrj1xk95zo+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <004601d99acd$6543b6d0$2fcb2470$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEab=LUCWdOPoJMyUDbztB13s2-mz1qJVxhJ=LXusoBkNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <006201d99ad1$429f9fa0$c7dedee0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYQzLTaKS8hF+WMCAn0YC=jCmw6T3H4Q52914mKCX3PBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b001d99ae0$8c2bc1d0$a4834570$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEaxFwwBBB6DQydZzRiznaSqkHquB+suO4f_UQA4n59Q3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401d99aef$3a805350$af80f9f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYEG42gwiagHfcwbyf0KiRPzwRMHojgLtbW45GHvce+RA@mail.gmail.com>
 <005b01d99af5$b59d24e0$20d76ea0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbiOUmHXQ9d55Mo4ET7hepRZxsaHpGtN5g0=sKo3dSq6A@mail.gmail.com>

I am so jealous of you.  You will get to see a lot of these changes and I
won't.  Oh well.  I once told Mama that she lived through the times from
horse and buggy to the Moon landing and ten years more, and those were
probably the greatest changes that have occurred in human history in that
short a time.  But maybe not.  Maybe I have.  Maybe you will.  Can positive
acceleration just keep on keeping on?   bill w

On Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 12:16?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Sent:* Friday, 9 June, 2023 9:39 AM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the
> periodic table
>
>
>
> Taiwan has the best, eh Spike?  Well, what the Hell happened to industrial
> espionage?  Enormous dollars are at stake and there are still secrets?  Get
> a spy.  Pay him 50 million dollars - cheap at that price.  Why take over a
> country?   (also, a tetrabyte would be part of a fish)
>
>
>
> bill w
>
>
>
>
>
> Industrial espionage steals the intellectual property in the factory, but
> does not steal the actual factory.  Taiwan has the best and most electronic
> manufacturing on the scale necessary to have the best and fastest GPUs.
> America knows **how** to design those GPUs and how to build the
> factories, but the right combination of tax structure and talent base came
> together in Taiwan, which made that country ground zero for the manufacture
> of the most advanced computer chips in the world.
>
>
>
> But since you ask, I propose a thought experiment sir.
>
>
>
> Picture in your mind a working person in the USA, or Europe.  OK, do you
> have your mental image?  Did you picture a guy in an office, perhaps in
> front of a computer most of the day?  Plenty of us made our living or still
> make our living that way.
>
>
>
> That was part 1, now part 2, consider a worker on the continent of Africa,
> working.  Did you picture a guy grubbing around collecting lithium ore in
> horrific conditions to satisfy the insatiable appetite in foreign lands for
> the stuff?
>
>
>
> If you did, then, good for you.  You are aware of where we are in human
> history: the west is charging ahead with clean and green technologies, by
> compelling people in less fortunate parts of the world to grub around, dig
> up their land, gather the lithium and other minerals we need to purr around
> in our clean green cars.
>
>
>
> OK then, part 3 of the experiment if you are still reading down this far.
>
>
>
> Picture specialized chatbots which are trained on something very specific,
> such as the complete US tax code.  Printed out and bound into books, that
> tax code on a shelf spans the left elbow to the right wing tip on a typical
> tall man, so can estimate about 1 to 1.5 meters of book, perhaps two
> billion words.  A chatbot could read all that, and become a soft
> accountant.  It could be a five dollar alternative to hiring an accounting
> form.  It might be able to train the soft accountant to read all your
> receipts, figure out what is deductible, fill out your tax return.  If so,
> the tax accounting business is headed out the door, and if that can be done
> with specialized chatbots, so can nearly everything done currently in an
> office in front of a computer in part 1 of your thought experiment.
>
>
>
> Conclusion: the guy who owns the capacity to manufacture the hardware to
> make those bots owns the planet.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From giulio at gmail.com  Fri Jun  9 17:35:48 2023
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 10:35:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Thoughts on the manifesto of futurist
 science (1916).
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0ow8RWmBjoVgTscJxiAxoVAgqLNfDgqhDcf26z4kRw4w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyf4c6N8yB9AoTGtha8NywXpp7-q-vrZT4Sp_D8KgVs6KQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3L303i0XepH6m0nJr-P3fHCJMSpFn0Z1JEsZ+KnAVGsg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAJPayv0AaKXGUiD-a5w7kxnK6VRRi6qqnUTJ60t=KGiWuuV49g@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfxSMT42aqKJwMfg=jqWx_phjgoA_Qtz8YEGm59EjA7ew@mail.gmail.com>

John:

< If it turns out that we really can send information faster than light
then we'd have to dump both General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics into
the trash?>

All depends on what you mean exactly by ?send information.? Space itself
can stretch faster than light in GR, naked singularities and closed
timelike loop solutions exist in GR, and QM has entangled correlations.

< the directions are that you and I independently and arbitrarily decided
to call "up"?>

The subtle point here is what ?independently and arbitrarily? means exactly.

< Obviously an agent is not uniquely determined by the external environment
but is also determined by the previous state the agent was in?>

According to conventional Laplacian determinism, both the external
environment and the previous state of the agent are determined by the state
of the universe long ago, long before the agent existed. Not so in global
determinism, where past and future are codetermined in a timeless loop. The
agent is an integral and irreducible part of the loop, and this is free
will.

Sorry for the very short reply, lots of things to to this morning at the
same time, I wish I could do them all in a timeless loop, more soon.

On 2023. Jun 8., Thu at 14:21, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 8, 2023 at 1:03?PM Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Giulio
>
> > > "psi has been tested over and over again, and it keeps on failing.
>>> And it's not surprising it failed given that because Bell's Inequality is
>>> violated we know that nonlocality is real but we also know that phenomenon
>>> cannot be used to transmit information, so it can't be involved in
>>> telepathy or signaling by way of psychokinesis."
>>
>>
>
> *> I think you forgot to add something like ?as far as we presently know.*
>
>
> If it turns out that we really can send information faster than light then
> we'd have to dump both General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics into the
> trash, but before we do anything that drastic I'd want to see something a
> *LOT* more convincing than a third rate stage magician like Yuri Geller
> bending a spoon.
>
>
> > "*Also, yes, correlation doesn?t imply causation, but this cuts both
>> ways. Even if there?s nothing involved that we would call causation, the
>> correlation is still there. A particle doesn?t ?tell? its spin to its
>> entangled pair (again, as far as we presently know), but the spin of its
>> entangled pair is (anti)correlated anyway. If you and I consistently happen
>> to think the same thing, isn?t this telepathy*?"
>
>
> But if you're talking about particles, spin, and Stern Gerlach magnets
> then it could be a perfect correlation, or a perfect anticorrelation, or
> anything inbetween depending on how different the directions are that you
> and I independently and arbitrarily decided to call "up". If the difference
> between what you choose to randomly call "up" and what I choose to randomly
> call  "up" is ? then the probability there will be a perfect
> anti-correlation is [COS(?)]^2.  So you won't know if I'm thinking what
> you're thinking, or I'm thinking the exact opposite of what you're
> thinking, or something inbetween.
>
> > *I define the free will of an agent as the ability to do things that
>> are not entirely and uniquely determined by the rest of the universe (that
>> is, the universe minus the agent).*
>>
>
> Obviously an agent is not uniquely determined by the external environment
> but is also determined by the previous state the agent was in, that's one
> reason two people don't behave the same way when confronted with identical
> conditions.  Another possibility is that he behaved the way did because he
> was determined by absolutely nothing, not logic, not emotion, nothing. He
> did it for no reason, he behaved *UN*reasonably.  And the very definition
> of "random" is an action without a cause. In other words you did what you
> did because of your heredity, or because of your environment, or because of
> both, or because of neither and you did it for no reason at all and was
> just an act of pure randomness.
>
> So where does this thing called "free will" enter into this?  I think it's
> just a case of you don't know what you're going to do until you actually do
> it, and when you do it you say to yourself I guess I decided to do it of
> my own free will, but it's no more mysterious than the fact that a computer
> doesn't know what the answer to the calculation it is working on is until
> it has finished the computation.
>
> John K Clark
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv0ow8RWmBjoVgTscJxiAxoVAgqLNfDgqhDcf26z4kRw4w%40mail.gmail.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv0ow8RWmBjoVgTscJxiAxoVAgqLNfDgqhDcf26z4kRw4w%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Jun  9 17:37:45 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 10:37:45 -0700
Subject: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the periodic
 table
In-Reply-To: <003401d99aef$3a805350$af80f9f0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <004601d99acd$6543b6d0$2fcb2470$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEab=LUCWdOPoJMyUDbztB13s2-mz1qJVxhJ=LXusoBkNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <006201d99ad1$429f9fa0$c7dedee0$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4-Tws8XHsfqcSWUk4ysKSxERXyML6q-m0rcKxj+JjykA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 9:28?AM spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
snip
>
> ?because Nvidia makes the best GPUs and GPUs are necessary to make chatbots and Taiwan manufactures Nvidia?s GPUs and why China will likely grab Taiwan at its first opportunity: Taiwan makes the hardware which the world needs to make good AIs, and he who has the most and best AIs owns the planet.
>
> Any questions?

That actually might be a good reason for China to back off Taiwan.

While I think you are right (now) about "he who has the AIs", I don't
think that will be the case in a few years.  The AIs will be running
things, and I don't think that is compatible with the CCP.

While the leadership of China makes noise about its socialist goals,
the real intent is a system where the ones with power over others
maintain that power.

Keith


>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Jun  9 17:56:07 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 10:56:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the periodic
 table
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbiOUmHXQ9d55Mo4ET7hepRZxsaHpGtN5g0=sKo3dSq6A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901d9949c$ca0ae160$5e20a420$@rainier66.com>
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 <035a01d99839$67a25530$36e6ff90$@rainier66.com>
 <63af0a72-09e5-2f08-0ec1-cd367f750edc@swisscows.email>
 <CAOJFdb+8o3M+eMWuhy8oEz5BRu3VF3ib-Jv8D8KAHvtVYuCVTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <01dd01d99a6d$6ac70180$40550480$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZm_GpJPeQcs-yHf0NVBsaS9BRg7BMndtyrj1xk95zo+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <004601d99acd$6543b6d0$2fcb2470$@rainier66.com>
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 <CAO+xQEbiOUmHXQ9d55Mo4ET7hepRZxsaHpGtN5g0=sKo3dSq6A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008f01d99afb$ab4e6250$01eb26f0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Sent: Friday, 9 June, 2023 10:29 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the periodic table

 

>?I am so jealous of you.  You will get to see a lot of these changes and I won't.  Oh well.  I once told Mama that she lived through the times from horse and buggy to the Moon landing and ten years more, and those were probably the greatest changes that have occurred in human history in that short a time.  But maybe not.  Maybe I have.  Maybe you will.  Can positive acceleration just keep on keeping on?   bill w

 

 

Can positive acceleration keep on?  Goooooood question Billw.  I once firmly believed it can, and the concept of extropy is based on that belief.  Now it isn?t nearly as clear.  I do hope it works that way, but I will confess to vague doubts at times.  We don?t know what machines will want to do with us, but we can pretty much guess what we will want to do with us, given the machines to do it with: kill each other.

 

China would really really like to convert North America and Europe into a food-supplying raw-materials supplying slave labor continents, much the way the west uses Africa now.  If China Inc controls the ability to automate nearly everything currently done in offices today, that scenario is realistic.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 12:16?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Sent: Friday, 9 June, 2023 9:39 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> >
Cc: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com <mailto:foozler83 at gmail.com> >
Subject: Re: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the periodic table

 

Taiwan has the best, eh Spike?  Well, what the Hell happened to industrial espionage?  Enormous dollars are at stake and there are still secrets?  Get a spy.  Pay him 50 million dollars - cheap at that price.  Why take over a country?   (also, a tetrabyte would be part of a fish)  

 

bill w

 

 

Industrial espionage steals the intellectual property in the factory, but does not steal the actual factory.  Taiwan has the best and most electronic manufacturing on the scale necessary to have the best and fastest GPUs.  America knows *how* to design those GPUs and how to build the factories, but the right combination of tax structure and talent base came together in Taiwan, which made that country ground zero for the manufacture of the most advanced computer chips in the world.

 

But since you ask, I propose a thought experiment sir.

 

Picture in your mind a working person in the USA, or Europe.  OK, do you have your mental image?  Did you picture a guy in an office, perhaps in front of a computer most of the day?  Plenty of us made our living or still make our living that way.

 

That was part 1, now part 2, consider a worker on the continent of Africa, working.  Did you picture a guy grubbing around collecting lithium ore in horrific conditions to satisfy the insatiable appetite in foreign lands for the stuff? 

 

If you did, then, good for you.  You are aware of where we are in human history: the west is charging ahead with clean and green technologies, by compelling people in less fortunate parts of the world to grub around, dig up their land, gather the lithium and other minerals we need to purr around in our clean green cars.

 

OK then, part 3 of the experiment if you are still reading down this far.

 

Picture specialized chatbots which are trained on something very specific, such as the complete US tax code.  Printed out and bound into books, that tax code on a shelf spans the left elbow to the right wing tip on a typical tall man, so can estimate about 1 to 1.5 meters of book, perhaps two billion words.  A chatbot could read all that, and become a soft accountant.  It could be a five dollar alternative to hiring an accounting form.  It might be able to train the soft accountant to read all your receipts, figure out what is deductible, fill out your tax return.  If so, the tax accounting business is headed out the door, and if that can be done with specialized chatbots, so can nearly everything done currently in an office in front of a computer in part 1 of your thought experiment.

 

Conclusion: the guy who owns the capacity to manufacture the hardware to make those bots owns the planet.

 

spike 

 

 

 

 

_______________________________________________
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Jun  9 18:12:06 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 11:12:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the periodic
 table
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbiOUmHXQ9d55Mo4ET7hepRZxsaHpGtN5g0=sKo3dSq6A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4XB7m1=+=Kn7yERYr=2tfSkWorNW2X2zFhJzU__WCWrQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 10:30?AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> I am so jealous of you.  You will get to see a lot of these changes and I won't.

Bill, unless you can't afford it, it's your choice.  If you want to
see the future, Alcor will sell you a ticket.

I am sure you understand the technology involved.

Though the way things are moving now, some of us old people may just
catch the edge of life extension and get into the future without a dip
in LN2.

Keith


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Jun  9 18:26:37 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 11:26:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the periodic
 table
In-Reply-To: <008f01d99afb$ab4e6250$01eb26f0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7p41xFZRKiPE6zHGE+uTbQVprvRCTdrJ2U+pFDLfjggA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 10:57?AM spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>  We don?t know what machines will want to do with us, but we can pretty much guess what we will want to do with us, given the machines to do it with: kill each other.

I don't think that is necessarily the case.  We are selected for the
psychological traits that lead to wars, but given a positive view of
the future, the mechanisms that lead to war stay switched off.
>
> China would really really like to convert North America and Europe into a food-supplying raw-materials supplying slave labor continents, much the way the west uses Africa now.  If China Inc controls the ability to automate nearly everything currently done in offices today, that scenario is realistic.

You are not thinking this through.  Given nanotech, there isn't
anything China would want to import.

Also, you are making what I think is unlikely, that China will be at
the forefront of AI.  I think they will be left in the dust.

Keith

>
>
> spike
>


From gadersd at gmail.com  Fri Jun  9 18:50:26 2023
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 14:50:26 -0400
Subject: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the periodic
 table
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB4-Tws8XHsfqcSWUk4ysKSxERXyML6q-m0rcKxj+JjykA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <01dd01d99a6d$6ac70180$40550480$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <2A95FF6E-C248-4061-A0C6-CAE812106A2B@gmail.com>

> While I think you are right (now) about "he who has the AIs", I don't
> think that will be the case in a few years.  The AIs will be running
> things, and I don't think that is compatible with the CCP.

I see your point if the AIs control the top level command, but what about AI that handles bureaucratic matters handed down from the ?emperor? and his cronies? I think the CCP would be receptive of competent and obedient bureaucrats who never complain or sleep.

> On Jun 9, 2023, at 1:37 PM, Keith Henson via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 9:28?AM spike jones via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>> wrote:
>> 
> snip
>> 
>> ?because Nvidia makes the best GPUs and GPUs are necessary to make chatbots and Taiwan manufactures Nvidia?s GPUs and why China will likely grab Taiwan at its first opportunity: Taiwan makes the hardware which the world needs to make good AIs, and he who has the most and best AIs owns the planet.
>> 
>> Any questions?
> 
> That actually might be a good reason for China to back off Taiwan.
> 
> While I think you are right (now) about "he who has the AIs", I don't
> think that will be the case in a few years.  The AIs will be running
> things, and I don't think that is compatible with the CCP.
> 
> While the leadership of China makes noise about its socialist goals,
> the real intent is a system where the ones with power over others
> maintain that power.
> 
> Keith
> 
> 
>> 
>> spike
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat <http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat>
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Jun  9 19:19:23 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 12:19:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the periodic
 table
In-Reply-To: <2A95FF6E-C248-4061-A0C6-CAE812106A2B@gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901d9949c$ca0ae160$5e20a420$@rainier66.com>
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 <CAOJFdb+8o3M+eMWuhy8oEz5BRu3VF3ib-Jv8D8KAHvtVYuCVTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <01dd01d99a6d$6ac70180$40550480$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4bZagomQwZ3BxDaVt9+OsbRogbVA-DMX9QG2s6L+FNxA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 11:52?AM Gadersd via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> While I think you are right (now) about "he who has the AIs", I don't
> think that will be the case in a few years.  The AIs will be running
> things, and I don't think that is compatible with the CCP.
>
> I see your point if the AIs control the top level command, but what about AI that handles bureaucratic matters handed down from the ?emperor? and his cronies? I think the CCP would be receptive of competent and obedient bureaucrats who never complain or sleep.

The problem is controlling the AIs.  LLM AIs have exhibited unexpected
behavior.  And while you can threaten people, the same cannot be said
for AIs.  High-level CCP members looked at AI and said (correctly)
"These things are dangerous to our way of life" and put the kibosh on
AI work in China.

The same might be the case here.  We might have laws against AI in a
couple of years, but that's an eon in AI progress time.  All I can say
is cinch up your seat belt, we are in for a wild ride.

Keith
>
> On Jun 9, 2023, at 1:37 PM, Keith Henson via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 9:28?AM spike jones via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
> snip
>
>
> ?because Nvidia makes the best GPUs and GPUs are necessary to make chatbots and Taiwan manufactures Nvidia?s GPUs and why China will likely grab Taiwan at its first opportunity: Taiwan makes the hardware which the world needs to make good AIs, and he who has the most and best AIs owns the planet.
>
> Any questions?
>
>
> That actually might be a good reason for China to back off Taiwan.
>
> While I think you are right (now) about "he who has the AIs", I don't
> think that will be the case in a few years.  The AIs will be running
> things, and I don't think that is compatible with the CCP.
>
> While the leadership of China makes noise about its socialist goals,
> the real intent is a system where the ones with power over others
> maintain that power.
>
> Keith
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Jun  9 19:37:48 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 14:37:48 -0500
Subject: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the periodic
 table
In-Reply-To: <008f01d99afb$ab4e6250$01eb26f0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901d9949c$ca0ae160$5e20a420$@rainier66.com>
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 <CAOJFdb+8o3M+eMWuhy8oEz5BRu3VF3ib-Jv8D8KAHvtVYuCVTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <01dd01d99a6d$6ac70180$40550480$@rainier66.com>
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 <008f01d99afb$ab4e6250$01eb26f0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbNZ5DmATHpZjJ+XvXWPRMvK7L4+JKkJEDCgzW9_uzqLg@mail.gmail.com>

If China Inc controls the ability to automate nearly everything currently
done in offices today, that scenario is realistic.  Change 'automate' to
'hack' and get the same answer.   Maybe we should spend even more money on
hacking and preventing hacking.   bill w

On Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 12:58?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Sent:* Friday, 9 June, 2023 10:29 AM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the
> periodic table
>
>
>
> >?I am so jealous of you.  You will get to see a lot of these changes and
> I won't.  Oh well.  I once told Mama that she lived through the times from
> horse and buggy to the Moon landing and ten years more, and those were
> probably the greatest changes that have occurred in human history in that
> short a time.  But maybe not.  Maybe I have.  Maybe you will.  Can positive
> acceleration just keep on keeping on?   bill w
>
>
>
>
>
> Can positive acceleration keep on?  Goooooood question Billw.  I once
> firmly believed it can, and the concept of extropy is based on that
> belief.  Now it isn?t nearly as clear.  I do hope it works that way, but I
> will confess to vague doubts at times.  We don?t know what machines will
> want to do with us, but we can pretty much guess what we will want to do
> with us, given the machines to do it with: kill each other.
>
>
>
> China would really really like to convert North America and Europe into a
> food-supplying raw-materials supplying slave labor continents, much the way
> the west uses Africa now.  If China Inc controls the ability to automate
> nearly everything currently done in offices today, that scenario is
> realistic.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 12:16?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Sent:* Friday, 9 June, 2023 9:39 AM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the
> periodic table
>
>
>
> Taiwan has the best, eh Spike?  Well, what the Hell happened to industrial
> espionage?  Enormous dollars are at stake and there are still secrets?  Get
> a spy.  Pay him 50 million dollars - cheap at that price.  Why take over a
> country?   (also, a tetrabyte would be part of a fish)
>
>
>
> bill w
>
>
>
>
>
> Industrial espionage steals the intellectual property in the factory, but
> does not steal the actual factory.  Taiwan has the best and most electronic
> manufacturing on the scale necessary to have the best and fastest GPUs.
> America knows **how** to design those GPUs and how to build the
> factories, but the right combination of tax structure and talent base came
> together in Taiwan, which made that country ground zero for the manufacture
> of the most advanced computer chips in the world.
>
>
>
> But since you ask, I propose a thought experiment sir.
>
>
>
> Picture in your mind a working person in the USA, or Europe.  OK, do you
> have your mental image?  Did you picture a guy in an office, perhaps in
> front of a computer most of the day?  Plenty of us made our living or still
> make our living that way.
>
>
>
> That was part 1, now part 2, consider a worker on the continent of Africa,
> working.  Did you picture a guy grubbing around collecting lithium ore in
> horrific conditions to satisfy the insatiable appetite in foreign lands for
> the stuff?
>
>
>
> If you did, then, good for you.  You are aware of where we are in human
> history: the west is charging ahead with clean and green technologies, by
> compelling people in less fortunate parts of the world to grub around, dig
> up their land, gather the lithium and other minerals we need to purr around
> in our clean green cars.
>
>
>
> OK then, part 3 of the experiment if you are still reading down this far.
>
>
>
> Picture specialized chatbots which are trained on something very specific,
> such as the complete US tax code.  Printed out and bound into books, that
> tax code on a shelf spans the left elbow to the right wing tip on a typical
> tall man, so can estimate about 1 to 1.5 meters of book, perhaps two
> billion words.  A chatbot could read all that, and become a soft
> accountant.  It could be a five dollar alternative to hiring an accounting
> form.  It might be able to train the soft accountant to read all your
> receipts, figure out what is deductible, fill out your tax return.  If so,
> the tax accounting business is headed out the door, and if that can be done
> with specialized chatbots, so can nearly everything done currently in an
> office in front of a computer in part 1 of your thought experiment.
>
>
>
> Conclusion: the guy who owns the capacity to manufacture the hardware to
> make those bots owns the planet.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From efc at swisscows.email  Fri Jun  9 19:40:52 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 21:40:52 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] India and the periodic table
In-Reply-To: <00bf01d99ae1$e0a8fab0$a1faf010$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <edbfe2ea-da64-6d15-b6e8-d40c0f8ca5a7@swisscows.email>

>> ...Where the CEOs of Bud Light and Target fired in the end?
>
> The Bud Light chief was.  The Target CEO hasn't been fired yet as far as I
> know, but his or her epic fail just happened in the past coupla, so there
> might not have been enough time yet.

Interesting! Quite a well behaved board I'd say. Maybe it would pay to
have a look at what other boards the board members are members of?

> Disney must attract a broad clientele across the entire population, but the
> governor of Florida only needs a simple majority to get elected.  It is best
> for a business to not get into a pissing match with the governor of Florida.

Haha, well, it does kind of sound obvious not to fight with the ones who
have the power if you are in their jurisdiction, but I guess if you're
the CEO long enough the power gets to your head. ;)

> As for the public schools, it sure seems simple to me.  Teachers, don't get
> tangled up in culture wars.  Teach students what students come there to
> learn.  Don't try to make little political activists out of them.  You get
> fired doing that.  Simple.

Oh if that were only true. But yes, that's how it should be.

>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


From efc at swisscows.email  Fri Jun  9 19:46:09 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 21:46:09 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] India and the periodic table
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEb7L6orUMyqULupX8jABOub8Ta3wqrohH_F-5TydarvLQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <01bc01d99a6b$0b816d70$22844850$@rainier66.com>
 <bb616c30-1760-c7e8-99df-41580f796a1a@swisscows.email>
 <CAO+xQEb7L6orUMyqULupX8jABOub8Ta3wqrohH_F-5TydarvLQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00a40473-c257-1caf-16fe-99f162070619@swisscows.email>

Hello Bill,

On Fri, 9 Jun 2023, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:

> People in the rest of the world may think that the US is a live and let live country.? Far from the truth.? We rate on sexual matters
> as conservative, at times radically so.? Europeans go to bed on the first date. That is far from common practice here.? Paranormal

Doesn't that differ by state and sub culture how conservative things are
from a sexual point of view?

When it comes to europeans, let me assure you that europeans going to
bed on the first date is far, far from the norm. Maybe in some
countries, but definitely not in any of the countries I lived in.

> sexual things like crossdressing, make for good humor in conservative circles in the past, but not now.? My college put on such a
> show and everyone laughed at the Dean in drag.? Perhaps they don't do that now.? bill w

Right now there is a huge political controversy in sweden since
crossdressers have been invited to libraries to read stories to
children. The left is pro, the nationalists contra and the middle quiet.

Best regards, 
Daniel


> On Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 8:53?AM efc--- via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>       Hello spike,
>
>       On Thu, 8 Jun 2023, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:
>
>       >> ...I propose "the third way" where companies return to their roots and only
>       > focus on long term profit and skip the politics...
>       >
>       > The third way you propose, if anything, is an understatement.? I would
>       > emphasize that the CEO is hired specifically to maximize profits for the
>       > shareholders.? It is one's ethical duty to do the job one is hired to do.
>
>       Oh how far we've gotten from that simple, rational and logical model. =(
>       I agree with you, but the past 2 years I've met with many CEOs and
>       chairmans of the boards of small to mid sized swedish companies, and
>       they are all about diversity, inclusivity, equity, greenwashing and
>       anything else that you might read in your center/left newspaper.
>
>       But I believe that we'll see more CEOs eventually who will revert back
>       to Classic Capitalism (TM).
>
>       > The CEO is not hired to right every wrong in society.? That is what we elect
>       > politicians to do.? CEOs should check their politics at the door, focus on
>       > making money.? That's their job, their only job, and their duty.
>
>       Or so one would think. But at least in sweden, that is a minority point
>       of view. About the US I think it is one of those polarizing questions.
>
>       >> ...What do you think? Could this be a new trend?
>       >
>       >> ...Best regards,
>       > Daniel
>       >
>       >
>       > The Bud Light signal is hard to ignore.? It was an object lesson that most
>       > CEOs heard loud and clear.? A few missed it.? Target missed the target,
>       > ended up alienating nearly everybody.? Fire that CEO, get one who will keep
>       > quiet, serve everyone, don't participate in society's culture wars.
>
>       Where the CEOs of Bud Light and Target fired in the end?
>
>       > It would be nice of the universities would likewise back away from culture
>       > wars, but those seem to be the primary battle fields.
>
>       I read something about, was it... Florida, trying to roll back the
>       politics in some public schools and this generated a lot of tears among
>       students and faculty.
>
>       Best regards,
>       Daniel
> 
>
>       > spike
>       >
>       >
>       >
>       > _______________________________________________
>       > extropy-chat mailing list
>       > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>       > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>       >
>       >
>
>       _______________________________________________
>       extropy-chat mailing list
>       extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>       http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 
> 
>

From efc at swisscows.email  Fri Jun  9 20:25:27 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 22:25:27 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the periodic
 table
In-Reply-To: <008f01d99afb$ab4e6250$01eb26f0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <63af0a72-09e5-2f08-0ec1-cd367f750edc@swisscows.email>
 <CAOJFdb+8o3M+eMWuhy8oEz5BRu3VF3ib-Jv8D8KAHvtVYuCVTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <01dd01d99a6d$6ac70180$40550480$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZm_GpJPeQcs-yHf0NVBsaS9BRg7BMndtyrj1xk95zo+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <004601d99acd$6543b6d0$2fcb2470$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEab=LUCWdOPoJMyUDbztB13s2-mz1qJVxhJ=LXusoBkNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <006201d99ad1$429f9fa0$c7dedee0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYQzLTaKS8hF+WMCAn0YC=jCmw6T3H4Q52914mKCX3PBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b001d99ae0$8c2bc1d0$a4834570$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEaxFwwBBB6DQydZzRiznaSqkHquB+suO4f_UQA4n59Q3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401d99aef$3a805350$af80f9f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYEG42gwiagHfcwbyf0KiRPzwRMHoj
 gLtbW45GHvce+RA@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAO+xQEbiOUmHXQ9d55Mo4ET7hepRZxsaHpGtN5g0=sKo3dSq6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <008f01d99afb$ab4e6250$01eb26f0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <5f007d0e-177c-a808-deaf-0ef79ee81d9c@swisscows.email>


On Fri, 9 Jun 2023, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:

> China would really really like to convert North America and Europe into a food-supplying raw-materials supplying slave labor
> continents, much the way the west uses Africa now.? If China Inc controls the ability to automate nearly everything currently done in
> offices today, that scenario is realistic.

I'm not so sure. When it comes to china, there are a couple of things
which always make me doubt their "power" and think that there will be
dramatic changes there eventually.

1. An acquaintance moved to china many years ago to work as an
architect. His general view after working there for a year was that:

1.1. Chinese are generally fairly incompetent. 
1.2. Do not have the ability to think critically or object. 
1.3. Love to cheat the system, not work at work etc.

It was a nightmare for him to try and get things done. He also travelled
around the country extensively and told me about

1.4. The enormous ghost cities and wasted resources due to incompetent
political decisions suffering from 1.2. and 1.3.

2. Another acquaintance worked extensively with Huawei and his
experience was pretty similar to 1. Why has Huawei become so successful?
His theory is a combination of 1 million monkeys eventually writing a
Shakespeare play _and_ a private company receiving the backing of a
state in the form of money and intelligence, so not successful on its
own.

3. I read somewhere (and keep in mind that I do not know if this is true
or just a rumour) that the chinese parliament has as many billionaires
in USD as the US parliament has millionaires.

Add to that that people in the country side, like the country side of russia,
live a medieval lifestyle. Combine that, the wealth and corruption of
the people in power, and perhaps there will be a revolution or a big
crash, which will in turn, lead to a revolution.

So yes, china might be a threat today, but I think they, like russia,
look way more scary from the outside, than from the inside.

Best regards, 
Daniel


> 
> ?
> 
> spike
> 
> ?
> 
> ?
> 
> ?
> 
> ?
> 
> ?
> 
> ?
> 
> ?
> 
> ?
> 
> ?
> 
> ?
> 
> On Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 12:16?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>       ?
>
>       ?
>
>       From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>       Sent: Friday, 9 June, 2023 9:39 AM
>       To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>       Cc: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
>       Subject: Re: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the periodic table
> 
> ?
> 
> Taiwan has the best, eh Spike?? Well, what the Hell happened to industrial espionage?? Enormous dollars are at stake and there
> are still secrets?? Get a spy.? Pay him 50 million dollars - cheap at that price.? Why take over a country?? ?(also, a
> tetrabyte?would be part of a fish)??
> 
> ?
> 
> bill w
> 
> ?
> 
> ?
> 
> Industrial espionage steals the intellectual property in the factory, but does not steal the actual factory.? Taiwan has the
> best and most electronic manufacturing on the scale necessary to have the best and fastest GPUs.? America knows *how* to design
> those GPUs and how to build the factories, but the right combination of tax structure and talent base came together in Taiwan,
> which made that country ground zero for the manufacture of the most advanced computer chips in the world.
> 
> ?
> 
> But since you ask, I propose a thought experiment sir.
> 
> ?
> 
> Picture in your mind a working person in the USA, or Europe.? OK, do you have your mental image?? Did you picture a guy in an
> office, perhaps in front of a computer most of the day?? Plenty of us made our living or still make our living that way.
> 
> ?
> 
> That was part 1, now part 2, consider a worker on the continent of Africa, working.? Did you picture a guy grubbing around
> collecting lithium ore in horrific conditions to satisfy the insatiable appetite in foreign lands for the stuff?
> 
> ?
> 
> If you did, then, good for you.? You are aware of where we are in human history: the west is charging ahead with clean and
> green technologies, by compelling people in less fortunate parts of the world to grub around, dig up their land, gather the
> lithium and other minerals we need to purr around in our clean green cars.
> 
> ?
> 
> OK then, part 3 of the experiment if you are still reading down this far.
> 
> ?
> 
> Picture specialized chatbots which are trained on something very specific, such as the complete US tax code.? Printed out and
> bound into books, that tax code on a shelf spans the left elbow to the right wing tip on a typical tall man, so can estimate
> about 1 to 1.5 meters of book, perhaps two billion words.? A chatbot could read all that, and become a soft accountant.? It
> could be a five dollar alternative to hiring an accounting form.? It might be able to train the soft accountant to read all
> your receipts, figure out what is deductible, fill out your tax return.? If so, the tax accounting business is headed out the
> door, and if that can be done with specialized chatbots, so can nearly everything done currently in an office in front of a
> computer in part 1 of your thought experiment.
> 
> ?
> 
> Conclusion: the guy who owns the capacity to manufacture the hardware to make those bots owns the planet.
> 
> ?
> 
> spike
> 
> ?
> 
> ?
> 
> ?
> 
> ?
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 
> 
>

From ben at zaiboc.net  Fri Jun  9 21:03:40 2023
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 22:03:40 +0100
Subject: [ExI] India and the periodic table
In-Reply-To: <mailman.21.1686325396.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.21.1686325396.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <b4e8d8bd-44ee-acc8-9cd4-a486e70c3eec@zaiboc.net>


On 09/06/2023 16:43, spike wrote:
> Teachers, don't get
> tangled up in culture wars.  Teach students what students come there to
> learn.  Don't try to make little political activists out of them.  You get
> fired doing that.  Simple.

It's not so simple, though. It's not trying to turn students into 
political activists that causes the trouble, it's the reactions to 
teachers doing their job, which includes exposing the students to a 
variety of viewpoints and trying to teach them to think, that causes the 
problem.

Now teachers are having to avoid teaching, in some areas, because if 
there's just one 'woke' black student, and your literature class 
involves something like Catcher in the Rye, you're in trouble. You can't 
avoid the culture wars, except by resigning. Even the sciences aren't 
exempt from this. Teach biology and you have to either mention evolution 
or avoid it, you have to either explain that a fertilised egg is not a 
person or not, you have to talk about X and Y chromosomes or avoid the 
whole subject of biological sex. Either choice is picking a side in the 
culture wars. You can't be impartial. You either teach, and fall foul of 
'woke' ideology with all the consequences, or you fail to teach and 
leave the kids in ignorance.

I don't really see how business is going to be any better, either. You 
either avoid showing minorities in your advertising and branding or you 
don't. You're damned either way.

Ben

From ben at zaiboc.net  Fri Jun  9 21:12:44 2023
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 22:12:44 +0100
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Thoughts on the manifesto of futurist
 science (1916).
In-Reply-To: <mailman.17.1686271266.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.17.1686271266.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <0d83345f-dab1-b70a-87b4-aed21528305f@zaiboc.net>

On 09/06/2023 01:41, Giulio Prisco wrote:
> If humans have natural ESP abilities, good!

If anyone turned out to have natural ESP abilities (I'm confident that 
won't happen), I think it would be far from good.

It would basically mean that science is wrong, down to the fundamentals. 
That would not be good. Fortunately, it's so unlikely that we can safely 
discount it, I reckon.

Ben

From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Jun  9 21:15:11 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 14:15:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the periodic
 table
In-Reply-To: <5f007d0e-177c-a808-deaf-0ef79ee81d9c@swisscows.email>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <63af0a72-09e5-2f08-0ec1-cd367f750edc@swisscows.email>
 <CAOJFdb+8o3M+eMWuhy8oEz5BRu3VF3ib-Jv8D8KAHvtVYuCVTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <01dd01d99a6d$6ac70180$40550480$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZm_GpJPeQcs-yHf0NVBsaS9BRg7BMndtyrj1xk95zo+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <004601d99acd$6543b6d0$2fcb2470$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEab=LUCWdOPoJMyUDbztB13s2-mz1qJVxhJ=LXusoBkNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <006201d99ad1$429f9fa0$c7dedee0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYQzLTaKS8hF+WMCAn0YC=jCmw6T3H4Q52914mKCX3PBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b001d99ae0$8c2bc1d0$a4834570$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEaxFwwBBB6DQydZzRiznaSqkHquB+suO4f_UQA4n59Q3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401d99aef$3a805350$af80f9f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYEG42gwiagHfcwbyf0KiRPzwRMHoj
 gLtbW45GHvce+RA@mail.gmail.com>
 <005b01d99af5$b59d24e0$20d76ea0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbiOUmHXQ9d55Mo4ET7hepRZxsaHpGtN5g0=sKo3dSq6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <008f01d99afb$ab4e6250$01eb26f0$@rainier66.com>
 <5f007d0e-177c-a808-deaf-0ef79ee81d9c@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <005601d99b17$7a69fde0$6f3df9a0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of efc--- via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the periodic table


On Fri, 9 Jun 2023, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:

>>... China would really really like to convert North America and Europe 
> into a food-supplying raw-materials supplying slave labor continents...

I'm not so sure. When it comes to china, there are a couple of things which always make me doubt their "power" and think that there will be dramatic changes there eventually.

1. An acquaintance moved to china many years ago to work as an architect. His general view after working there for a year was that:

1.1. Chinese are generally fairly incompetent. 
1.2. Do not have the ability to think critically or object. 
1.3. Love to cheat the system, not work at work etc....







Sure, all of that is true, however the whole notion is contingent upon China mastering the technology to create custom AIs or seizing the manufacturing capacity for making the GPUs necessary for custom AIs.

As I understand it, custom chatbots are absolutely dependent on huge calculation capacity, the kind that requires GPUs manufactured at the scale (both integration and production capacity) currently dominated by Taiwan.  China wouldn't need to necessary master AI tech, if they controlled manufacturing of GPUs, which they will if they grab Taiwan while the US government is at war with itself, as it is now.

spike



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Jun  9 21:23:22 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 16:23:22 -0500
Subject: [ExI] India and the periodic table
In-Reply-To: <00a40473-c257-1caf-16fe-99f162070619@swisscows.email>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901d9949c$ca0ae160$5e20a420$@rainier66.com>
 <698ee512-205d-e93a-21d3-7ef08cb4d3f6@swisscows.email>
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 <00a40473-c257-1caf-16fe-99f162070619@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaKwQfyH=DrMDVQgVdYvcwOJqa0=8vx9fe3ApXHr-xFNA@mail.gmail.com>

Daniel, any time one makes a generalization you can criticize it for
ignoring details.  Of course the US South is the most conservative and the
coast more liberal, but look at what you can put on TV?  Where can you put
a bare female breast on TV?  Not around here.  France, yes.  SCandanavia?
Overall we are still conservative.   I taught a course in sexuality, and
there were Southern and Northern versions.  In the Northern versions they
showed pictures of various body parts etc.  In the South those were
converted to drawings!  How silly can you get?
bill w

On Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 2:52?PM efc--- via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Hello Bill,
>
> On Fri, 9 Jun 2023, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:
>
> > People in the rest of the world may think that the US is a live and let
> live country.  Far from the truth.  We rate on sexual matters
> > as conservative, at times radically so.  Europeans go to bed on the
> first date. That is far from common practice here.  Paranormal
>
> Doesn't that differ by state and sub culture how conservative things are
> from a sexual point of view?
>
> When it comes to europeans, let me assure you that europeans going to
> bed on the first date is far, far from the norm. Maybe in some
> countries, but definitely not in any of the countries I lived in.
>
> > sexual things like crossdressing, make for good humor in conservative
> circles in the past, but not now.  My college put on such a
> > show and everyone laughed at the Dean in drag.  Perhaps they don't do
> that now.  bill w
>
> Right now there is a huge political controversy in sweden since
> crossdressers have been invited to libraries to read stories to
> children. The left is pro, the nationalists contra and the middle quiet.
>
> Best regards,
> Daniel
>
>
> > On Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 8:53?AM efc--- via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >       Hello spike,
> >
> >       On Thu, 8 Jun 2023, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:
> >
> >       >> ...I propose "the third way" where companies return to their
> roots and only
> >       > focus on long term profit and skip the politics...
> >       >
> >       > The third way you propose, if anything, is an understatement.  I
> would
> >       > emphasize that the CEO is hired specifically to maximize profits
> for the
> >       > shareholders.  It is one's ethical duty to do the job one is
> hired to do.
> >
> >       Oh how far we've gotten from that simple, rational and logical
> model. =(
> >       I agree with you, but the past 2 years I've met with many CEOs and
> >       chairmans of the boards of small to mid sized swedish companies,
> and
> >       they are all about diversity, inclusivity, equity, greenwashing and
> >       anything else that you might read in your center/left newspaper.
> >
> >       But I believe that we'll see more CEOs eventually who will revert
> back
> >       to Classic Capitalism (TM).
> >
> >       > The CEO is not hired to right every wrong in society.  That is
> what we elect
> >       > politicians to do.  CEOs should check their politics at the
> door, focus on
> >       > making money.  That's their job, their only job, and their duty.
> >
> >       Or so one would think. But at least in sweden, that is a minority
> point
> >       of view. About the US I think it is one of those polarizing
> questions.
> >
> >       >> ...What do you think? Could this be a new trend?
> >       >
> >       >> ...Best regards,
> >       > Daniel
> >       >
> >       >
> >       > The Bud Light signal is hard to ignore.  It was an object lesson
> that most
> >       > CEOs heard loud and clear.  A few missed it.  Target missed the
> target,
> >       > ended up alienating nearly everybody.  Fire that CEO, get one
> who will keep
> >       > quiet, serve everyone, don't participate in society's culture
> wars.
> >
> >       Where the CEOs of Bud Light and Target fired in the end?
> >
> >       > It would be nice of the universities would likewise back away
> from culture
> >       > wars, but those seem to be the primary battle fields.
> >
> >       I read something about, was it... Florida, trying to roll back the
> >       politics in some public schools and this generated a lot of tears
> among
> >       students and faculty.
> >
> >       Best regards,
> >       Daniel
> >
> >
> >       > spike
> >       >
> >       >
> >       >
> >       > _______________________________________________
> >       > extropy-chat mailing list
> >       > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >       > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >       >
> >       >
> >
> >       _______________________________________________
> >       extropy-chat mailing list
> >       extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >       http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Jun  9 21:28:21 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 16:28:21 -0500
Subject: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the periodic
 table
In-Reply-To: <5f007d0e-177c-a808-deaf-0ef79ee81d9c@swisscows.email>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <63af0a72-09e5-2f08-0ec1-cd367f750edc@swisscows.email>
 <CAOJFdb+8o3M+eMWuhy8oEz5BRu3VF3ib-Jv8D8KAHvtVYuCVTg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbVyAzd1QLORC_=6Qfu6Orz3x0EL_=V3LdhSMfvtJCgSA@mail.gmail.com>

What you say about the typical Chinese is reported to be true of Central
and South America.  Shoddy workmanship, laziness. can't get phone calls
returned, every clerk a bureaucrat you have to grease the palm of,
nightmares trying to get things imported, and many more.  I think the
Chinese have done some wonderful things, but the basic people are just
people, as everywhere.  Consistently the US is rated the top country for
productive work.  Also, fewer vacation times, less time off for various
reasons.   bill w

On Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 3:27?PM efc--- via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> On Fri, 9 Jun 2023, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:
>
> > China would really really like to convert North America and Europe into
> a food-supplying raw-materials supplying slave labor
> > continents, much the way the west uses Africa now.  If China Inc
> controls the ability to automate nearly everything currently done in
> > offices today, that scenario is realistic.
>
> I'm not so sure. When it comes to china, there are a couple of things
> which always make me doubt their "power" and think that there will be
> dramatic changes there eventually.
>
> 1. An acquaintance moved to china many years ago to work as an
> architect. His general view after working there for a year was that:
>
> 1.1. Chinese are generally fairly incompetent.
> 1.2. Do not have the ability to think critically or object.
> 1.3. Love to cheat the system, not work at work etc.
>
> It was a nightmare for him to try and get things done. He also travelled
> around the country extensively and told me about
>
> 1.4. The enormous ghost cities and wasted resources due to incompetent
> political decisions suffering from 1.2. and 1.3.
>
> 2. Another acquaintance worked extensively with Huawei and his
> experience was pretty similar to 1. Why has Huawei become so successful?
> His theory is a combination of 1 million monkeys eventually writing a
> Shakespeare play _and_ a private company receiving the backing of a
> state in the form of money and intelligence, so not successful on its
> own.
>
> 3. I read somewhere (and keep in mind that I do not know if this is true
> or just a rumour) that the chinese parliament has as many billionaires
> in USD as the US parliament has millionaires.
>
> Add to that that people in the country side, like the country side of
> russia,
> live a medieval lifestyle. Combine that, the wealth and corruption of
> the people in power, and perhaps there will be a revolution or a big
> crash, which will in turn, lead to a revolution.
>
> So yes, china might be a threat today, but I think they, like russia,
> look way more scary from the outside, than from the inside.
>
> Best regards,
> Daniel
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > spike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 12:16?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >       From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On
> Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> >       Sent: Friday, 9 June, 2023 9:39 AM
> >       To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> >       Cc: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> >       Subject: Re: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the
> periodic table
> >
> >
> >
> > Taiwan has the best, eh Spike?  Well, what the Hell happened to
> industrial espionage?  Enormous dollars are at stake and there
> > are still secrets?  Get a spy.  Pay him 50 million dollars - cheap at
> that price.  Why take over a country?   (also, a
> > tetrabyte would be part of a fish)
> >
> >
> >
> > bill w
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Industrial espionage steals the intellectual property in the factory,
> but does not steal the actual factory.  Taiwan has the
> > best and most electronic manufacturing on the scale necessary to have
> the best and fastest GPUs.  America knows *how* to design
> > those GPUs and how to build the factories, but the right combination of
> tax structure and talent base came together in Taiwan,
> > which made that country ground zero for the manufacture of the most
> advanced computer chips in the world.
> >
> >
> >
> > But since you ask, I propose a thought experiment sir.
> >
> >
> >
> > Picture in your mind a working person in the USA, or Europe.  OK, do you
> have your mental image?  Did you picture a guy in an
> > office, perhaps in front of a computer most of the day?  Plenty of us
> made our living or still make our living that way.
> >
> >
> >
> > That was part 1, now part 2, consider a worker on the continent of
> Africa, working.  Did you picture a guy grubbing around
> > collecting lithium ore in horrific conditions to satisfy the insatiable
> appetite in foreign lands for the stuff?
> >
> >
> >
> > If you did, then, good for you.  You are aware of where we are in human
> history: the west is charging ahead with clean and
> > green technologies, by compelling people in less fortunate parts of the
> world to grub around, dig up their land, gather the
> > lithium and other minerals we need to purr around in our clean green
> cars.
> >
> >
> >
> > OK then, part 3 of the experiment if you are still reading down this far.
> >
> >
> >
> > Picture specialized chatbots which are trained on something very
> specific, such as the complete US tax code.  Printed out and
> > bound into books, that tax code on a shelf spans the left elbow to the
> right wing tip on a typical tall man, so can estimate
> > about 1 to 1.5 meters of book, perhaps two billion words.  A chatbot
> could read all that, and become a soft accountant.  It
> > could be a five dollar alternative to hiring an accounting form.  It
> might be able to train the soft accountant to read all
> > your receipts, figure out what is deductible, fill out your tax return.
> If so, the tax accounting business is headed out the
> > door, and if that can be done with specialized chatbots, so can nearly
> everything done currently in an office in front of a
> > computer in part 1 of your thought experiment.
> >
> >
> >
> > Conclusion: the guy who owns the capacity to manufacture the hardware to
> make those bots owns the planet.
> >
> >
> >
> > spike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Jun  9 21:30:31 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 16:30:31 -0500
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Thoughts on the manifesto of futurist
 science (1916).
In-Reply-To: <0d83345f-dab1-b70a-87b4-aed21528305f@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.17.1686271266.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <0d83345f-dab1-b70a-87b4-aed21528305f@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEba_hdYrTevCWKiNo_SS6xMSdHVqWD9Y5a8zhpazS=n+g@mail.gmail.com>

Ben, you just can't change superstitions.  One study:  the myths about
certain psych subjects were measured at the start of a 101 class, and then
addressed and contradicted throughout the semester.  the myth measure was
given again at the end of the semester.  Same results.  No effects of
contractions.  Sad.   bill w

On Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 4:14?PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On 09/06/2023 01:41, Giulio Prisco wrote:
> > If humans have natural ESP abilities, good!
>
> If anyone turned out to have natural ESP abilities (I'm confident that
> won't happen), I think it would be far from good.
>
> It would basically mean that science is wrong, down to the fundamentals.
> That would not be good. Fortunately, it's so unlikely that we can safely
> discount it, I reckon.
>
> Ben
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From efc at swisscows.email  Fri Jun  9 21:32:20 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 23:32:20 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] India and the periodic table
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaKwQfyH=DrMDVQgVdYvcwOJqa0=8vx9fe3ApXHr-xFNA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <038fd934-9c0c-53ff-6048-d473630387ff@swisscows.email>

Thank you very much for the clarification Bill, those nuances make much 
more sense to me and it is more enlightening for me.

Best regards,
Daniel


On Fri, 9 Jun 2023, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:

> Daniel, any time one makes a generalization you can criticize it for ignoring details.? Of course the US South is the most
> conservative and the coast more liberal, but look at what you can put on TV?? Where can you put a bare female breast on TV?? Not
> around here.? France, yes.? SCandanavia?? Overall we are still conservative.? ?I taught a course in sexuality, and there were
> Southern and Northern versions.? In the Northern versions they showed pictures of various body parts etc.? In the South those were
> converted to drawings!? How silly can you get?
> bill w
> 
> On Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 2:52?PM efc--- via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>       Hello Bill,
>
>       On Fri, 9 Jun 2023, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:
>
>       > People in the rest of the world may think that the US is a live and let live country.? Far from the truth.? We rate on
>       sexual matters
>       > as conservative, at times radically so.? Europeans go to bed on the first date. That is far from common practice here.?
>       Paranormal
>
>       Doesn't that differ by state and sub culture how conservative things are
>       from a sexual point of view?
>
>       When it comes to europeans, let me assure you that europeans going to
>       bed on the first date is far, far from the norm. Maybe in some
>       countries, but definitely not in any of the countries I lived in.
>
>       > sexual things like crossdressing, make for good humor in conservative circles in the past, but not now.? My college put
>       on such a
>       > show and everyone laughed at the Dean in drag.? Perhaps they don't do that now.? bill w
>
>       Right now there is a huge political controversy in sweden since
>       crossdressers have been invited to libraries to read stories to
>       children. The left is pro, the nationalists contra and the middle quiet.
>
>       Best regards,
>       Daniel
> 
>
>       > On Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 8:53?AM efc--- via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>       >? ? ? ?Hello spike,
>       >
>       >? ? ? ?On Thu, 8 Jun 2023, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:
>       >
>       >? ? ? ?>> ...I propose "the third way" where companies return to their roots and only
>       >? ? ? ?> focus on long term profit and skip the politics...
>       >? ? ? ?>
>       >? ? ? ?> The third way you propose, if anything, is an understatement.? I would
>       >? ? ? ?> emphasize that the CEO is hired specifically to maximize profits for the
>       >? ? ? ?> shareholders.? It is one's ethical duty to do the job one is hired to do.
>       >
>       >? ? ? ?Oh how far we've gotten from that simple, rational and logical model. =(
>       >? ? ? ?I agree with you, but the past 2 years I've met with many CEOs and
>       >? ? ? ?chairmans of the boards of small to mid sized swedish companies, and
>       >? ? ? ?they are all about diversity, inclusivity, equity, greenwashing and
>       >? ? ? ?anything else that you might read in your center/left newspaper.
>       >
>       >? ? ? ?But I believe that we'll see more CEOs eventually who will revert back
>       >? ? ? ?to Classic Capitalism (TM).
>       >
>       >? ? ? ?> The CEO is not hired to right every wrong in society.? That is what we elect
>       >? ? ? ?> politicians to do.? CEOs should check their politics at the door, focus on
>       >? ? ? ?> making money.? That's their job, their only job, and their duty.
>       >
>       >? ? ? ?Or so one would think. But at least in sweden, that is a minority point
>       >? ? ? ?of view. About the US I think it is one of those polarizing questions.
>       >
>       >? ? ? ?>> ...What do you think? Could this be a new trend?
>       >? ? ? ?>
>       >? ? ? ?>> ...Best regards,
>       >? ? ? ?> Daniel
>       >? ? ? ?>
>       >? ? ? ?>
>       >? ? ? ?> The Bud Light signal is hard to ignore.? It was an object lesson that most
>       >? ? ? ?> CEOs heard loud and clear.? A few missed it.? Target missed the target,
>       >? ? ? ?> ended up alienating nearly everybody.? Fire that CEO, get one who will keep
>       >? ? ? ?> quiet, serve everyone, don't participate in society's culture wars.
>       >
>       >? ? ? ?Where the CEOs of Bud Light and Target fired in the end?
>       >
>       >? ? ? ?> It would be nice of the universities would likewise back away from culture
>       >? ? ? ?> wars, but those seem to be the primary battle fields.
>       >
>       >? ? ? ?I read something about, was it... Florida, trying to roll back the
>       >? ? ? ?politics in some public schools and this generated a lot of tears among
>       >? ? ? ?students and faculty.
>       >
>       >? ? ? ?Best regards,
>       >? ? ? ?Daniel
>       >
>       >
>       >? ? ? ?> spike
>       >? ? ? ?>
>       >? ? ? ?>
>       >? ? ? ?>
>       >? ? ? ?> _______________________________________________
>       >? ? ? ?> extropy-chat mailing list
>       >? ? ? ?> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>       >? ? ? ?> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>       >? ? ? ?>
>       >? ? ? ?>
>       >
>       >? ? ? ?_______________________________________________
>       >? ? ? ?extropy-chat mailing list
>       >? ? ? ?extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>       >? ? ? ?http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>       >
>       >
>       >_______________________________________________
>       extropy-chat mailing list
>       extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>       http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 
> 
>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Jun  9 21:35:46 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 16:35:46 -0500
Subject: [ExI] libraries
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYZSQj345CJheBn4BLK_eUiLTsqqbOfaw8Tt+190EUHdg@mail.gmail.com>

What does the future with AI hold for traditional libraries?   bill w
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From efc at swisscows.email  Fri Jun  9 21:40:59 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 23:40:59 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] India and the periodic table
In-Reply-To: <b4e8d8bd-44ee-acc8-9cd4-a486e70c3eec@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.21.1686325396.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <b4e8d8bd-44ee-acc8-9cd4-a486e70c3eec@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <04d8fa55-89db-808c-6a5a-c007661406c6@swisscows.email>

Hello Ben,

On Fri, 9 Jun 2023, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote:

> On 09/06/2023 16:43, spike wrote:
>> Teachers, don't get
>> tangled up in culture wars.  Teach students what students come there to
>> learn.  Don't try to make little political activists out of them.  You get
>> fired doing that.  Simple.
>
> like Catcher in the Rye, you're in trouble. You can't avoid the culture wars, 
> except by resigning. Even the sciences aren't exempt from this. Teach biology

Why?

> and you have to either mention evolution or avoid it, you have to either 
> explain that a fertilised egg is not a person or not, you have to talk about 
> X and Y chromosomes or avoid the whole subject of biological sex. Either

X, Y chromosomes and biological sexes and evolution are facts or the
currently best know explanation supported by science and experiment. Why
wouldn't you mention it? It has nothing to do with culture.

> choice is picking a side in the culture wars. You can't be impartial. You 
> either teach, and fall foul of 'woke' ideology with all the consequences, or 
> you fail to teach and leave the kids in ignorance.

If you believe X, and someone else believes Y, I can choose to not
believe in either or take either side. Of course X can define not X as
Y, but that is just plain silly.

The best course of action is to refuse to take a side, refuse to
acknowledge the definition of not X = Y, and get on with science.

Of course you have all the right in the world to believe that I'm Y by
being not X, but I do not have to accept that.

> I don't really see how business is going to be any better, either. You either 
> avoid showing minorities in your advertising and branding or you don't. 
> You're damned either way.

Or you just show what ever people you want and refuse to play the game.
If you engage, _then_, you lost. By just sticking with science and
rationality, you will solve the problem in the long term. No amount of
culture war and wokeness can beat natural laws.

>
> Ben
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


From efc at swisscows.email  Fri Jun  9 21:42:52 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 23:42:52 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the periodic
 table
In-Reply-To: <005601d99b17$7a69fde0$6f3df9a0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <a707a46b-6646-b56a-1eaf-bfa78a4033f5@swisscows.email>

On Fri, 9 Jun 2023, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:

> 1. An acquaintance moved to china many years ago to work as an architect. His general view after working there for a year was that:
>
> 1.1. Chinese are generally fairly incompetent.
> 1.2. Do not have the ability to think critically or object.
> 1.3. Love to cheat the system, not work at work etc....
>
> Sure, all of that is true, however the whole notion is contingent upon China mastering the technology to create custom AIs or seizing the manufacturing capacity for making the GPUs necessary for custom AIs.


Sorry, my mistake. _If_ that happens, then of course all bets are off.
But that goes for anyone, anywhere.


From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Jun  9 22:03:59 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 15:03:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] libraries
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYZSQj345CJheBn4BLK_eUiLTsqqbOfaw8Tt+190EUHdg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYZSQj345CJheBn4BLK_eUiLTsqqbOfaw8Tt+190EUHdg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008b01d99b1e$4bc92d60$e35b8820$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: [ExI] libraries

 

>?What does the future with AI hold for traditional libraries?   bill w

 

 

At least some of them are gradually reverting to homeless shelters.

 

spike

 

 

 

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From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Fri Jun  9 22:44:39 2023
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2023 18:44:39 -0400
Subject: [ExI] libraries
In-Reply-To: <008b01d99b1e$4bc92d60$e35b8820$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYZSQj345CJheBn4BLK_eUiLTsqqbOfaw8Tt+190EUHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <008b01d99b1e$4bc92d60$e35b8820$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <f4e149958c31e10f2fc0facc13853f11.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>



On Fri, June 9, 2023 18:03, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:

> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> Subject: [ExI] libraries
>
>>?What does the future with AI hold for traditional libraries?   bill w
>
> At least some of them are gradually reverting to homeless shelters.

In my area this is unfortunately the case.  The homeless hang out there
when it is open.  It's not so bad in my town, but in the nearby city it's
a problem for the staff and for regular library patrons.

Regards,
MB



>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From efc at swisscows.email  Sat Jun 10 10:07:20 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 12:07:20 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] libraries
In-Reply-To: <f4e149958c31e10f2fc0facc13853f11.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
References: <CAO+xQEYZSQj345CJheBn4BLK_eUiLTsqqbOfaw8Tt+190EUHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <008b01d99b1e$4bc92d60$e35b8820$@rainier66.com>
 <f4e149958c31e10f2fc0facc13853f11.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <86b8a60a-5b19-cf37-047c-d7a9442fa01a@swisscows.email>

To add to the depressing state, in sweden, libraries became very popular 
for selling drugs. I think there is some kind of political initiative to 
counter this, but for a long time libraries were full of sinister looking 
men who did not want to be approached.

Best regards,
Daniel

On Fri, 9 Jun 2023, MB via extropy-chat wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, June 9, 2023 18:03, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:
>
>> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>> Subject: [ExI] libraries
>>
>>> ?What does the future with AI hold for traditional libraries?   bill w
>>
>> At least some of them are gradually reverting to homeless shelters.
>
> In my area this is unfortunately the case.  The homeless hang out there
> when it is open.  It's not so bad in my town, but in the nearby city it's
> a problem for the staff and for regular library patrons.
>
> Regards,
> MB
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>> spike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

From efc at swisscows.email  Sat Jun 10 10:09:06 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 12:09:06 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the periodic
 table
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbVyAzd1QLORC_=6Qfu6Orz3x0EL_=V3LdhSMfvtJCgSA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ytGAOF-RdpQ3Y9KyLfkNyHxRBBxbJMQoPLcVUdUuoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdb+8o3M+eMWuhy8oEz5BRu3VF3ib-Jv8D8KAHvtVYuCVTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <01dd01d99a6d$6ac70180$40550480$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZm_GpJPeQcs-yHf0NVBsaS9BRg7BMndtyrj1xk95zo+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <004601d99acd$6543b6d0$2fcb2470$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEab=LUCWdOPoJMyUDbztB13s2-mz1qJVxhJ=LXusoBkNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <006201d99ad1$429f9fa0$c7dedee0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYQzLTaKS8hF+WMCAn0YC=jCmw6T3H4Q52914mKCX3PBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b001d99ae0$8c2bc1d0$a4834570$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEaxFwwBBB6DQydZzRiznaSqkHquB+suO4f_UQA4n59Q3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401d99aef$3a805350$af80f9f0$@rainier66.com>
 <005b01d99af5$b59d24e0$20d76ea0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbiOUmHXQ9d55Mo4ET7hepRZxsaHpGtN5g0=sKo3dSq6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <008f01d99afb$ab4e6250$01eb26f0$@rainier66.com>
 <5f007d0e-177c-a808-deaf-0ef79ee81d9c@swisscows.email>
 <CAO+xQEbVyAzd1QLORC_=6Qfu6Orz3x0EL_=V3LdhSMfvtJCgSA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <71f527f5-1ac6-e3a0-7e89-aadaa27911a7@swisscows.email>

What I would be interested in is a "control" experiment where a chinese 
man would go through the same trip as my acquaintance. I suspect that he 
would be able to better "parry" the behaviour experienced and get more 
done. But I'm just speculating.

Best regards,
Daniel


On Fri, 9 Jun 2023, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:

> What you say about the typical Chinese is reported to be true of Central and South America.? Shoddy workmanship, laziness. can't get
> phone calls returned, every clerk a bureaucrat you have to grease the palm of, nightmares?trying to get things imported, and many
> more.? I think the Chinese have done some wonderful things, but the basic people are just people, as everywhere.? Consistently the US
> is rated the top country for productive work.? Also, fewer vacation times, less time off for various reasons.? ?bill w
> 
> On Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 3:27?PM efc--- via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>       On Fri, 9 Jun 2023, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:
>
>       > China would really really like to convert North America and Europe into a food-supplying raw-materials supplying slave
>       labor
>       > continents, much the way the west uses Africa now.? If China Inc controls the ability to automate nearly everything
>       currently done in
>       > offices today, that scenario is realistic.
>
>       I'm not so sure. When it comes to china, there are a couple of things
>       which always make me doubt their "power" and think that there will be
>       dramatic changes there eventually.
>
>       1. An acquaintance moved to china many years ago to work as an
>       architect. His general view after working there for a year was that:
>
>       1.1. Chinese are generally fairly incompetent.
>       1.2. Do not have the ability to think critically or object.
>       1.3. Love to cheat the system, not work at work etc.
>
>       It was a nightmare for him to try and get things done. He also travelled
>       around the country extensively and told me about
>
>       1.4. The enormous ghost cities and wasted resources due to incompetent
>       political decisions suffering from 1.2. and 1.3.
>
>       2. Another acquaintance worked extensively with Huawei and his
>       experience was pretty similar to 1. Why has Huawei become so successful?
>       His theory is a combination of 1 million monkeys eventually writing a
>       Shakespeare play _and_ a private company receiving the backing of a
>       state in the form of money and intelligence, so not successful on its
>       own.
>
>       3. I read somewhere (and keep in mind that I do not know if this is true
>       or just a rumour) that the chinese parliament has as many billionaires
>       in USD as the US parliament has millionaires.
>
>       Add to that that people in the country side, like the country side of russia,
>       live a medieval lifestyle. Combine that, the wealth and corruption of
>       the people in power, and perhaps there will be a revolution or a big
>       crash, which will in turn, lead to a revolution.
>
>       So yes, china might be a threat today, but I think they, like russia,
>       look way more scary from the outside, than from the inside.
>
>       Best regards,
>       Daniel
> 
>
>       >
>       > ?
>       >
>       > spike
>       >
>       > ?
>       >
>       > ?
>       >
>       > ?
>       >
>       > ?
>       >
>       > ?
>       >
>       > ?
>       >
>       > ?
>       >
>       > ?
>       >
>       > ?
>       >
>       > ?
>       >
>       > On Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 12:16?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>       >
>       >? ? ? ??
>       >
>       >? ? ? ??
>       >
>       >? ? ? ?From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>       >? ? ? ?Sent: Friday, 9 June, 2023 9:39 AM
>       >? ? ? ?To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>       >? ? ? ?Cc: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
>       >? ? ? ?Subject: Re: [ExI] chatbots and marketing: was RE: India and the periodic table
>       >
>       > ?
>       >
>       > Taiwan has the best, eh Spike?? Well, what the Hell happened to industrial espionage?? Enormous dollars are at stake
>       and there
>       > are still secrets?? Get a spy.? Pay him 50 million dollars - cheap at that price.? Why take over a country?? ?(also, a
>       > tetrabyte?would be part of a fish)??
>       >
>       > ?
>       >
>       > bill w
>       >
>       > ?
>       >
>       > ?
>       >
>       > Industrial espionage steals the intellectual property in the factory, but does not steal the actual factory.? Taiwan
>       has the
>       > best and most electronic manufacturing on the scale necessary to have the best and fastest GPUs.? America knows *how*
>       to design
>       > those GPUs and how to build the factories, but the right combination of tax structure and talent base came together in
>       Taiwan,
>       > which made that country ground zero for the manufacture of the most advanced computer chips in the world.
>       >
>       > ?
>       >
>       > But since you ask, I propose a thought experiment sir.
>       >
>       > ?
>       >
>       > Picture in your mind a working person in the USA, or Europe.? OK, do you have your mental image?? Did you picture a guy
>       in an
>       > office, perhaps in front of a computer most of the day?? Plenty of us made our living or still make our living that
>       way.
>       >
>       > ?
>       >
>       > That was part 1, now part 2, consider a worker on the continent of Africa, working.? Did you picture a guy grubbing
>       around
>       > collecting lithium ore in horrific conditions to satisfy the insatiable appetite in foreign lands for the stuff?
>       >
>       > ?
>       >
>       > If you did, then, good for you.? You are aware of where we are in human history: the west is charging ahead with clean
>       and
>       > green technologies, by compelling people in less fortunate parts of the world to grub around, dig up their land, gather
>       the
>       > lithium and other minerals we need to purr around in our clean green cars.
>       >
>       > ?
>       >
>       > OK then, part 3 of the experiment if you are still reading down this far.
>       >
>       > ?
>       >
>       > Picture specialized chatbots which are trained on something very specific, such as the complete US tax code.? Printed
>       out and
>       > bound into books, that tax code on a shelf spans the left elbow to the right wing tip on a typical tall man, so can
>       estimate
>       > about 1 to 1.5 meters of book, perhaps two billion words.? A chatbot could read all that, and become a soft
>       accountant.? It
>       > could be a five dollar alternative to hiring an accounting form.? It might be able to train the soft accountant to read
>       all
>       > your receipts, figure out what is deductible, fill out your tax return.? If so, the tax accounting business is headed
>       out the
>       > door, and if that can be done with specialized chatbots, so can nearly everything done currently in an office in front
>       of a
>       > computer in part 1 of your thought experiment.
>       >
>       > ?
>       >
>       > Conclusion: the guy who owns the capacity to manufacture the hardware to make those bots owns the planet.
>       >
>       > ?
>       >
>       > spike
>       >
>       > ?
>       >
>       > ?
>       >
>       > ?
>       >
>       > ?
>       >
>       > _______________________________________________
>       > extropy-chat mailing list
>       > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>       > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>       >
>       >
>       >_______________________________________________
>       extropy-chat mailing list
>       extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>       http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 
> 
>

From efc at swisscows.email  Sat Jun 10 10:11:41 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 12:11:41 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Thoughts on the manifesto of futurist
 science (1916).
In-Reply-To: <0d83345f-dab1-b70a-87b4-aed21528305f@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.17.1686271266.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <0d83345f-dab1-b70a-87b4-aed21528305f@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <2ac8a5f7-399a-1e2f-b4e4-1254639bfe3d@swisscows.email>

I think it would be wonderful! So much more to explore and the opportunity 
to better understand the world.

But I agree, very, very unlikely.

Best regards,
Daniel


On Fri, 9 Jun 2023, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote:

> On 09/06/2023 01:41, Giulio Prisco wrote:
>> If humans have natural ESP abilities, good!
>
> If anyone turned out to have natural ESP abilities (I'm confident that won't 
> happen), I think it would be far from good.
>
> It would basically mean that science is wrong, down to the fundamentals. That 
> would not be good. Fortunately, it's so unlikely that we can safely discount 
> it, I reckon.
>
> Ben
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Jun 10 11:26:30 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 06:26:30 -0500
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Thoughts on the manifesto of futurist
 science (1916).
In-Reply-To: <2ac8a5f7-399a-1e2f-b4e4-1254639bfe3d@swisscows.email>
References: <mailman.17.1686271266.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <0d83345f-dab1-b70a-87b4-aed21528305f@zaiboc.net>
 <2ac8a5f7-399a-1e2f-b4e4-1254639bfe3d@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbf-Cpo-EN0Tp6SFBGOBrxj1ZSmYujCTmn3qOcc=hRh7g@mail.gmail.com>

There was a cartoon long ago that was based on the idea of esp.  I showed a
group of people around a table.  Each was responding to reading someone
else's mind, and cursing and so forth "Well, if that's what you think, you
total idiot...."  "My nose is ugly, you say?  You have the taste of ....."
So things unsaid would be communicated to everyone anyway, and the results
would be disaster.

No, we don't want esp in any form.  We might go extinct.   bill w

On Sat, Jun 10, 2023 at 5:23?AM efc--- via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I think it would be wonderful! So much more to explore and the opportunity
> to better understand the world.
>
> But I agree, very, very unlikely.
>
> Best regards,
> Daniel
>
>
> On Fri, 9 Jun 2023, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote:
>
> > On 09/06/2023 01:41, Giulio Prisco wrote:
> >> If humans have natural ESP abilities, good!
> >
> > If anyone turned out to have natural ESP abilities (I'm confident that
> won't
> > happen), I think it would be far from good.
> >
> > It would basically mean that science is wrong, down to the fundamentals.
> That
> > would not be good. Fortunately, it's so unlikely that we can safely
> discount
> > it, I reckon.
> >
> > Ben
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Jun 10 12:02:52 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 05:02:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] libraries
In-Reply-To: <86b8a60a-5b19-cf37-047c-d7a9442fa01a@swisscows.email>
References: <CAO+xQEYZSQj345CJheBn4BLK_eUiLTsqqbOfaw8Tt+190EUHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <008b01d99b1e$4bc92d60$e35b8820$@rainier66.com>
 <f4e149958c31e10f2fc0facc13853f11.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <86b8a60a-5b19-cf37-047c-d7a9442fa01a@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <004401d99b93$7cbab950$76302bf0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of efc--- via ...
Subject: Re: [ExI] libraries

>...To add to the depressing state, in sweden, libraries became very popular for selling drugs. I think there is some kind of political initiative to counter this, but for a long time libraries were full of sinister looking men who did not want to be approached.

Best regards,
Daniel




Daniel the USA is in for a hard lesson on that.  Once a building is used for that purpose, it is difficult or impossible for the public to take back.  There are plenty of one-way roads in the destruction process.  San Francisco is a pathetic poster child in what happens when a society decides to decriminalize crime.  The result is crime.  

Now businesses are fleeing once-prosperous areas.  That is not easily reversed.  I am hearing the commercial real estate in the San Fran biz district has a high vacancy rate.  A decade ago, it was nearly impossible to get office space down there.  Now you can, for a steep discount.

spike



From ben at zaiboc.net  Sat Jun 10 12:58:33 2023
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 13:58:33 +0100
Subject: [ExI] chatbots and marketing
In-Reply-To: <mailman.28.1686391670.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.28.1686391670.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <23f083b9-29af-ae33-26ee-84712097fd52@zaiboc.net>


On 10/06/2023 11:07, spike wrote:
> As I understand it, custom chatbots are absolutely dependent on huge calculation capacity, the kind that requires GPUs manufactured at the scale (both integration and production capacity) currently dominated by Taiwan.  China wouldn't need to necessary master AI tech, if they controlled manufacturing of GPUs, which they will if they grab Taiwan while the US government is at war with itself, as it is now.

What happened to the notion of Taiwan blowing its Chip-fabs up, in the 
event of an invasion? I thought that was the main deterrent? Is that a 
real thing, or just surmise?

Ben

From ben at zaiboc.net  Sat Jun 10 13:05:01 2023
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 14:05:01 +0100
Subject: [ExI] India and the periodic table
In-Reply-To: <mailman.28.1686391670.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.28.1686391670.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <3e0545b3-e958-6f6a-9b0e-043813f9c028@zaiboc.net>



On 10/06/2023 11:07, bill w wrote:
> Daniel, any time one makes a generalization you can criticize it for 
> ignoring details.? Of course the US South is the most conservative and 
> the coast more liberal, but look at what you can put on TV? Where can 
> you put a bare female breast on TV?? Not around here.? France, yes.? 
> SCandanavia?? Overall we are still conservative.? ?I taught a course 
> in sexuality, and there were Southern and Northern versions.? In the 
> Northern versions they showed pictures of various body parts etc.? In 
> the South those were converted to drawings!? How silly can you get?
> bill w


Silly indeed.

Years ago, I got off the train in Cologne, and was confronted with a 
large, almost life-size, poster showing a full frontal naked female (of 
course, I don't remember what it was advertising, I probably didn't even 
notice that at the time!). This was in the early 2000s. Nobody was 
paying any particular attention, or making a fuss. I think I was the 
only person even slightly taken aback.

Imagine this in a train station in the US!

Ben
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Jun 10 14:05:48 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 07:05:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] India and the periodic table
In-Reply-To: <3e0545b3-e958-6f6a-9b0e-043813f9c028@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.28.1686391670.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <3e0545b3-e958-6f6a-9b0e-043813f9c028@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <002901d99ba4$a9197520$fb4c5f60$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat




>?Years ago, I got off the train in Cologne, and was confronted with a large, almost life-size, poster showing a full frontal naked female?

>?Imagine this in a train station in the US!

Ben

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ben in the USA such a poster would be considered religious discrimination.  It isn?t the American south where that would matter, it would be in Michigan.

 

spike

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From ben at zaiboc.net  Sat Jun 10 14:32:35 2023
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 15:32:35 +0100
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 237, Issue 13
In-Reply-To: <mailman.28.1686391670.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.28.1686391670.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <e08dfac4-3bdb-2cb3-4b17-1a4ff4270547@zaiboc.net>



On 10/06/2023 11:07, efc at swisscows.email wrote:
> Hello Ben,
>
> On Fri, 9 Jun 2023, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote:
>
>> On 09/06/2023 16:43, spike wrote:
>>> Teachers, don't get
>>> tangled up in culture wars.? Teach students what students come there to
>>> learn.? Don't try to make little political activists out of them.? 
>>> You get
>>> fired doing that.? Simple.
>>
>> like Catcher in the Rye, you're in trouble. You can't avoid the 
>> culture wars, except by resigning. Even the sciences aren't exempt 
>> from this. Teach biology
>
> Why?

Catcher in the Rye, To Kill a Mockingbird, Huckleberry Finn, and many 
other works, contain what the media coyly call 'racial slurs', and 
depictions of racism. This is seen as unacceptale now, by people of a 
certain disposition, and some of them are determined to stir up trouble 
for any teacher who dares to present this material to their students.

>
>> and you have to either mention evolution or avoid it, you have to 
>> either explain that a fertilised egg is not a person or not, you have 
>> to talk about X and Y chromosomes or avoid the whole subject of 
>> biological sex. Either
>
> X, Y chromosomes and biological sexes and evolution are facts or the
> currently best know explanation supported by science and experiment. Why
> wouldn't you mention it? It has nothing to do with culture.

I agree. The facts themselves have nothing to do with culture. But 
teaching them does. When you teach, you are doing something that affects 
the culture. Kids that grow up understanding and accepting evolution are 
at odds with those who have creationist beliefs. Those who understand 
that a clump of cells is not a person are at odds with anti-choice 
people who think that women should not have bodily autonomy. Someone who 
points out that everyone has XX or XY chromosomes (with the occasional 
abnormalities, like XYY syndrome) are at odds with those who want to 
ignore biology in favour of 'gender identity' (I know it sounds bonkers, 
but look at the reactions against J K Rowling for simply stating a 
fact). I have nothing against a man wearing a skirt, or people choosing 
to have surger to alter their sex organs, but I realise that if you're 
born with XY chromosomes, that makes you a man, and nothing can change 
that (yet). This makes me an enemy of the "you're a girl if you say 
you're a girl" crowd, who don't think chromosomes have a say in the matter.

So acknowledging reality becomes a cultural thing, because there are 
people who refuse to acknowledge reality, and think that those who do 
are wrong.

>
>> choice is picking a side in the culture wars. You can't be impartial. 
>> You either teach, and fall foul of 'woke' ideology with all the 
>> consequences, or you fail to teach and leave the kids in ignorance.
>
> If you believe X, and someone else believes Y, I can choose to not
> believe in either or take either side. Of course X can define not X as
> Y, but that is just plain silly.

Of course, but there's no shortage of people who are just plain silly.

How many people do you think understand that Atheism is not a belief 
that there are no gods?
"I'm an atheist, I don't believe in any gods"
"Why do you believe there are no gods?"
"I didn't say that"
"Yes you did"
And so-on.
I've lost count of the 'discussions' I've had with people, trying to 
explain that atheism is not a belief. There are many, many silly (to be 
polite) people.

>
> The best course of action is to refuse to take a side, refuse to
> acknowledge the definition of not X = Y, and get on with science.
>
> Of course you have all the right in the world to believe that I'm Y by
> being not X, but I do not have to accept that.

What you accept or don't is beside the point. Especially when you can be 
hounded out of your job by those who don't accept.

>
>> I don't really see how business is going to be any better, either. 
>> You either avoid showing minorities in your advertising and branding 
>> or you don't. You're damned either way.
>
> Or you just show what ever people you want and refuse to play the game.
> If you engage, _then_, you lost. By just sticking with science and
> rationality, you will solve the problem in the long term. No amount of
> culture war and wokeness can beat natural laws.

My point is that you can't refuse to play the game. Show whoever you 
want or not, there will always be people who are opposed to whatever you do.

The culture war and wokeness doesn't need to beat natural laws, it can 
still get you sacked or worse.

Ben
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Jun 10 14:42:47 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 09:42:47 -0500
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEb7R2D7sb7jg=fL21N7+fMQPsYbDHs8k-F5HJMNMVQgNw@mail.gmail.com>

Ben in the USA such a poster would be considered religious discrimination.
It isn?t the American south where that would matter, it would be in
Michigan.



spike     Explain please   bill w
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From ben at zaiboc.net  Sat Jun 10 14:43:20 2023
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 15:43:20 +0100
Subject: [ExI] India and the periodic table
In-Reply-To: <002901d99ba4$a9197520$fb4c5f60$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.28.1686391670.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <3e0545b3-e958-6f6a-9b0e-043813f9c028@zaiboc.net>
 <002901d99ba4$a9197520$fb4c5f60$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <b658594d-f51d-eb88-6fe1-a1f3a94bfecf@zaiboc.net>


On 10/06/2023 15:05, spike at rainier66.com wrote:
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On 
> Behalf Of *Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat
>
> >?Years ago, I got off the train in Cologne, and was confronted with a 
> large, almost life-size, poster showing a full frontal naked female?
>
> >?Imagine this in a train station in the US!
>
> Ben
>
> Ben in the USA such a poster would be considered religious 
> discrimination.? It isn?t the American south where that would matter, 
> it would be in Michigan.
>
> spike
>

OK, You're going to have to explain that!

I'm trying to think how that makes any sense at all, and coming up blank.

Ben
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Jun 10 14:58:08 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 07:58:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 237, Issue 13
In-Reply-To: <e08dfac4-3bdb-2cb3-4b17-1a4ff4270547@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.28.1686391670.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <e08dfac4-3bdb-2cb3-4b17-1a4ff4270547@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTONYXhy4ty+CqJjv6jXp6tX8Sx9bDBzDkayu8KeF=4=A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 10, 2023, 7:34 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Someone who points out that everyone has XX or XY chromosomes (with the
> occasional abnormalities, like XYY syndrome) are at odds with those who
> want to ignore biology in favour of 'gender identity' (I know it sounds
> bonkers, but look at the reactions against J K Rowling for simply stating a
> fact). I have nothing against a man wearing a skirt, or people choosing to
> have surger to alter their sex organs, but I realise that if you're born
> with XY chromosomes, that makes you a man, and nothing can change that
> (yet). This makes me an enemy of the "you're a girl if you say you're a
> girl" crowd, who don't think chromosomes have a say in the matter.
>

The problem there is those who define "man" et al as anything more than
just "an adult human with XY chromosomes" et al - and that would
unfortunately appear to be the majority of people, regardless of the
science, which makes their definition matter.  This isn't just the "you are
what gender you think you are" crowd; indeed, that group arose as a
reaction to the "women are defined as baby machines who are not supposed to
earn a living"/"men are defined as mentally resilient enough that they
should never seek mental health help"/et al crowd.  The chromosomes can't
be changed but those other qualities can (to some extent: while no one with
XY chromosomes has yet become pregnant that I know of outside of extreme
surgical technicalities, most of the crowd is far more concerned with
whether those with XX chromosomes may be forced to become pregnant and
carry babies through birth against their will, which far too many say is
part of being a woman by the definition of "woman").

One theoretical solution could be to reduce those words to just their
chromosomal meaning in popular usage.  We are so far away from that, that
many view that solution as impossible in practice.

>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Jun 10 15:06:22 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 10:06:22 -0500
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 237, Issue 13
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTONYXhy4ty+CqJjv6jXp6tX8Sx9bDBzDkayu8KeF=4=A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.28.1686391670.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <e08dfac4-3bdb-2cb3-4b17-1a4ff4270547@zaiboc.net>
 <CALAdGNTONYXhy4ty+CqJjv6jXp6tX8Sx9bDBzDkayu8KeF=4=A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaysj6YecZrtSaypsDxLn2FTXD1F-FLxJGGaEegTe=tbw@mail.gmail.com>

One would think that being able to lactate is a sure sign that it's a
woman.   Wrong.  bill w

On Sat, Jun 10, 2023 at 10:00?AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 10, 2023, 7:34 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Someone who points out that everyone has XX or XY chromosomes (with the
>> occasional abnormalities, like XYY syndrome) are at odds with those who
>> want to ignore biology in favour of 'gender identity' (I know it sounds
>> bonkers, but look at the reactions against J K Rowling for simply stating a
>> fact). I have nothing against a man wearing a skirt, or people choosing to
>> have surger to alter their sex organs, but I realise that if you're born
>> with XY chromosomes, that makes you a man, and nothing can change that
>> (yet). This makes me an enemy of the "you're a girl if you say you're a
>> girl" crowd, who don't think chromosomes have a say in the matter.
>>
>
> The problem there is those who define "man" et al as anything more than
> just "an adult human with XY chromosomes" et al - and that would
> unfortunately appear to be the majority of people, regardless of the
> science, which makes their definition matter.  This isn't just the "you are
> what gender you think you are" crowd; indeed, that group arose as a
> reaction to the "women are defined as baby machines who are not supposed to
> earn a living"/"men are defined as mentally resilient enough that they
> should never seek mental health help"/et al crowd.  The chromosomes can't
> be changed but those other qualities can (to some extent: while no one with
> XY chromosomes has yet become pregnant that I know of outside of extreme
> surgical technicalities, most of the crowd is far more concerned with
> whether those with XX chromosomes may be forced to become pregnant and
> carry babies through birth against their will, which far too many say is
> part of being a woman by the definition of "woman").
>
> One theoretical solution could be to reduce those words to just their
> chromosomal meaning in popular usage.  We are so far away from that, that
> many view that solution as impossible in practice.
>
>> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Jun 10 16:12:08 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 09:12:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEb7R2D7sb7jg=fL21N7+fMQPsYbDHs8k-F5HJMNMVQgNw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb7R2D7sb7jg=fL21N7+fMQPsYbDHs8k-F5HJMNMVQgNw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004401d99bb6$4f1ca210$ed55e630$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> 
Sent: Saturday, 10 June, 2023 7:43 AM
To: spike <spike at rainier66.com>; ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: 

 

 

Ben in the USA such a poster would be considered religious discrimination.  It isn?t the American south where that would matter, it would be in Michigan.

 

spike     Explain please   bill w

 

There is a specific well-known community from a religion that doesn?t allow this kind of thing.  If the conservative south objects, nobody cares, they won?t hurt you.

spike

 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Jun 10 16:17:37 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 11:17:37 -0500
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <004401d99bb6$4f1ca210$ed55e630$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb7R2D7sb7jg=fL21N7+fMQPsYbDHs8k-F5HJMNMVQgNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <004401d99bb6$4f1ca210$ed55e630$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEb-uoPS5bu4ttXyb+ayqYwyY+ERx-tAdBVP0MJCpZLChA@mail.gmail.com>

Further info desired.  What religious community?  And what does
'don't tolerate it' mean? And Southerners are the most aggressive people in
the US, I think.  A naked poster would not survive 5 minutes here, much
less it's never being put up in the first place.  What moron would try to
do such a thing?  bill w

On Sat, Jun 10, 2023 at 11:14?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Saturday, 10 June, 2023 7:43 AM
> *To:* spike <spike at rainier66.com>; ExI chat list <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Subject:*
>
>
>
>
>
> Ben in the USA such a poster would be considered religious
> discrimination.  It isn?t the American south where that would matter, it
> would be in Michigan.
>
>
>
> spike     Explain please   bill w
>
>
>
> There is a specific well-known community from a religion that doesn?t
> allow this kind of thing.  If the conservative south objects, nobody cares,
> they won?t hurt you.
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From john at ziaspace.com  Sat Jun 10 16:55:44 2023
From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 16:55:44 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ExI] Sabine Hossenfelder on transhumanism
Message-ID: <b10e38d4-2337-31b8-77c4-6ac13858db78@ziaspace.com>

She always does an excellent job of explaining stuff, as she puts it, 
without the gobbledygook.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm8hLZ_-8Gs

It'd be much easier to show someone this video than to try to explain many 
of the topics she explains.

John

From ben at zaiboc.net  Sat Jun 10 17:07:26 2023
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 18:07:26 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Men in Skirts
In-Reply-To: <mailman.31.1686413882.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.31.1686413882.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <30d27404-d5a8-4bb7-c357-bae40a902d46@zaiboc.net>


On 10/06/2023 17:18, Adrian Tymes wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 10, 2023, 7:34 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat 
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>     Someone who points out that everyone has XX or XY chromosomes
>     (with the occasional abnormalities, like XYY syndrome) are at odds
>     with those who want to ignore biology in favour of 'gender
>     identity' (I know it sounds bonkers, but look at the reactions
>     against J K Rowling for simply stating a fact). I have nothing
>     against a man wearing a skirt, or people choosing to have surger
>     to alter their sex organs, but I realise that if you're born with
>     XY chromosomes, that makes you a man, and nothing can change that
>     (yet). This makes me an enemy of the "you're a girl if you say
>     you're a girl" crowd, who don't think chromosomes have a say in
>     the matter.
>
>
> The problem there is those who define "man" et al as anything more 
> than just "an adult human with XY chromosomes" et al - and that would 
> unfortunately appear to be the majority of people, regardless of the 
> science, which makes their definition matter.? This isn't just the 
> "you are what gender you think you are" crowd; indeed, that group 
> arose as a reaction to the "women are defined as baby machines who are 
> not supposed to earn a living"/"men are defined as mentally resilient 
> enough that they should never seek mental health help"/et al crowd. 
> The chromosomes can't be changed but those other qualities can (to 
> some extent: while no one with XY chromosomes has yet become pregnant 
> that I know of outside of extreme surgical technicalities, most of the 
> crowd is far more concerned with whether those with XX chromosomes may 
> be forced to become pregnant and carry babies through birth against 
> their will, which far too many say is part of being a woman by the 
> definition of "woman").
>
> One theoretical solution could be to reduce those words to just their 
> chromosomal meaning in popular usage.? We are so far away from that, 
> that many view that solution as impossible in practice.

Fine. So let's make a start. "Impossible" is a challenge, not a limitation!

You can argue what 'man' and 'woman' (and maybe even 'male' and 
'female', at a stretch) should mean, but not what 'XX' and 'XY' do mean.

I am (as opposed to 'I identify as') an XY.

Nobody can disagree with that, it's not an opinion or a cultural 
position. It's an unassailable fact, and I can prove it.

Maybe I should start wearing skirts, with a T-shirt that says "XY" in 
big letters.

Ben
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From ben at zaiboc.net  Sat Jun 10 17:11:58 2023
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 18:11:58 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Poster
In-Reply-To: <mailman.31.1686413882.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.31.1686413882.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <5dae5076-43f8-e023-f57d-ec387cd108d3@zaiboc.net>


On 10/06/2023 17:18, spike wrote:
> There is a specific well-known community from a religion that doesn?t 
> allow this kind of thing.

I still don't see how a poster of a nekkid woman (sorry, I mean a nekkid 
XX) would be religious discrimination. Against their rules, maybe, but 
discrimination?

Ben
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From efc at swisscows.email  Sat Jun 10 17:20:15 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 19:20:15 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Thoughts on the manifesto of futurist
 science (1916).
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbf-Cpo-EN0Tp6SFBGOBrxj1ZSmYujCTmn3qOcc=hRh7g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.17.1686271266.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <0d83345f-dab1-b70a-87b4-aed21528305f@zaiboc.net>
 <2ac8a5f7-399a-1e2f-b4e4-1254639bfe3d@swisscows.email>
 <CAO+xQEbf-Cpo-EN0Tp6SFBGOBrxj1ZSmYujCTmn3qOcc=hRh7g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <96b09cc1-3395-d62f-4904-80e21223e3fa@swisscows.email>

Who is "we"?

Best regards,
Daniel


On Sat, 10 Jun 2023, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:

> There was a cartoon long ago that was based on the idea of esp.? I showed a group of people around a table.? Each was responding to
> reading someone else's mind, and cursing and so forth "Well, if that's what you think, you total idiot...."? "My nose is ugly, you
> say?? You have the taste of ....."? So things unsaid would be communicated to everyone anyway, and the results would be disaster.??
> 
> No, we don't want esp in any form.? We might go extinct.? ?bill w
> 
> On Sat, Jun 10, 2023 at 5:23?AM efc--- via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>       I think it would be wonderful! So much more to explore and the opportunity
>       to better understand the world.
>
>       But I agree, very, very unlikely.
>
>       Best regards,
>       Daniel
> 
>
>       On Fri, 9 Jun 2023, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote:
>
>       > On 09/06/2023 01:41, Giulio Prisco wrote:
>       >> If humans have natural ESP abilities, good!
>       >
>       > If anyone turned out to have natural ESP abilities (I'm confident that won't
>       > happen), I think it would be far from good.
>       >
>       > It would basically mean that science is wrong, down to the fundamentals. That
>       > would not be good. Fortunately, it's so unlikely that we can safely discount
>       > it, I reckon.
>       >
>       > Ben
>       > _______________________________________________
>       > extropy-chat mailing list
>       > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>       > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>       >
>       >
>
>       _______________________________________________
>       extropy-chat mailing list
>       extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>       http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 
> 
>

From efc at swisscows.email  Sat Jun 10 17:22:17 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 19:22:17 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] libraries
In-Reply-To: <004401d99b93$7cbab950$76302bf0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYZSQj345CJheBn4BLK_eUiLTsqqbOfaw8Tt+190EUHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <008b01d99b1e$4bc92d60$e35b8820$@rainier66.com>
 <f4e149958c31e10f2fc0facc13853f11.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <86b8a60a-5b19-cf37-047c-d7a9442fa01a@swisscows.email>
 <004401d99b93$7cbab950$76302bf0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <5560b070-57fc-0707-98c8-3b2d9e6a76a2@swisscows.email>

Hello spike,

On Sat, 10 Jun 2023, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:

> Now businesses are fleeing once-prosperous areas.  That is not easily reversed.  I am hearing the commercial real estate in the San Fran biz district has a high vacancy rate.  A decade ago, it was nearly impossible to get office space down there.  Now you can, for a steep discount.

How is New York doing? I remember during corona I read articles that
said that many people closed up shop and moved to florida or other
states.

Are people now moving back to New York?

Best regards, 
Daniel


>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Jun 10 18:04:32 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 19:04:32 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Who is we?
Message-ID: <CAL_armhmkCGhPhceFz9mJ-bd+FiU7-hns=2WSMc+vfAs+XOo2g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 10 Jun 2023 at 18:22, efc--- via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Who is "we"?
>
> Best regards, Daniel
>_______________________________________________


Do you know the origin of this saying?     :)

There was a popular USA TV western series called 'The Lone Ranger' originally
broadcast in 1949 to 1957 about a Texas Ranger and his faithful
American Indian companion Tonto.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lone_Ranger_(TV_series)>

MAD magazine produced a cartoon joke around 1958 which became instantly popular.
The joke is approximately like this -

The Lone Ranger and Tonto are riding across the plains when they see a
group of Indians in full warpaint galloping toward them, tomahawks at
the ready. The Lone Ranger digs in his heels and says to his faithful
companion, ?Well, Tonto old friend, looks like they?ve got us
surrounded.? Tonto replies, ?What do you mean ?we,? paleface??
---------

It has become a classic riposte.   :)

BillK


From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Jun 10 18:28:34 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 11:28:34 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Men in Skirts
In-Reply-To: <30d27404-d5a8-4bb7-c357-bae40a902d46@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.31.1686413882.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <30d27404-d5a8-4bb7-c357-bae40a902d46@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNT+MhMDQkeXf705iJg++2C2YOnWPVSnmC+UGFixNzj7BQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 10, 2023 at 10:08?AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On 10/06/2023 17:18, Adrian Tymes wrote:
>
> On Sat, Jun 10, 2023, 7:34 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Someone who points out that everyone has XX or XY chromosomes (with the
>> occasional abnormalities, like XYY syndrome) are at odds with those who
>> want to ignore biology in favour of 'gender identity' (I know it sounds
>> bonkers, but look at the reactions against J K Rowling for simply stating a
>> fact). I have nothing against a man wearing a skirt, or people choosing to
>> have surger to alter their sex organs, but I realise that if you're born
>> with XY chromosomes, that makes you a man, and nothing can change that
>> (yet). This makes me an enemy of the "you're a girl if you say you're a
>> girl" crowd, who don't think chromosomes have a say in the matter.
>>
>
> The problem there is those who define "man" et al as anything more than
> just "an adult human with XY chromosomes" et al - and that would
> unfortunately appear to be the majority of people, regardless of the
> science, which makes their definition matter.  This isn't just the "you are
> what gender you think you are" crowd; indeed, that group arose as a
> reaction to the "women are defined as baby machines who are not supposed to
> earn a living"/"men are defined as mentally resilient enough that they
> should never seek mental health help"/et al crowd.  The chromosomes can't
> be changed but those other qualities can (to some extent: while no one with
> XY chromosomes has yet become pregnant that I know of outside of extreme
> surgical technicalities, most of the crowd is far more concerned with
> whether those with XX chromosomes may be forced to become pregnant and
> carry babies through birth against their will, which far too many say is
> part of being a woman by the definition of "woman").
>
> One theoretical solution could be to reduce those words to just their
> chromosomal meaning in popular usage.  We are so far away from that, that
> many view that solution as impossible in practice.
>
>
> Fine. So let's make a start. "Impossible" is a challenge, not a limitation!
>
> You can argue what 'man' and 'woman' (and maybe even 'male' and 'female',
> at a stretch) should mean, but not what 'XX' and 'XY' do mean.
>
> I am (as opposed to 'I identify as') an XY.
>
> Nobody can disagree with that, it's not an opinion or a cultural position.
> It's an unassailable fact, and I can prove it.
>
> Maybe I should start wearing skirts, with a T-shirt that says "XY" in big
> letters.
>

Sure, but what does it mean to be an XY?  People - seeing that this is an
attempt to dodge the definitions of "man" and "woman" - will attach
meanings beyond literally just having those chromosomes.  Many of those
meanings will not be universally applicable but people will wrongly treat
them as if they are, winding back up at more or less the current problem.
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Jun 10 18:42:28 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 11:42:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] India and the periodic table
In-Reply-To: <04d8fa55-89db-808c-6a5a-c007661406c6@swisscows.email>
References: <mailman.21.1686325396.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <b4e8d8bd-44ee-acc8-9cd4-a486e70c3eec@zaiboc.net>
 <04d8fa55-89db-808c-6a5a-c007661406c6@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSM5XLbA+Vm2x67z3vH_GnWQQMcZ9Lhy6ff-+hRQq=nDA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 2:55?PM efc--- via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> X, Y chromosomes and biological sexes and evolution are facts or the
> currently best know explanation supported by science and experiment. Why
> wouldn't you mention it? It has nothing to do with culture.
>

Because some people have a cultural investment in that not being the
explanation, science be damned.

For instance, some people see the concept of evolution as disproving
(their) God's creation of humanity, thus justifying (their) God's absolute
authority over humanity, thus justifying their authority over humanity as
self-proclaimed representatives of (their) God.  Thus, they believe their
culture matters in this matter of science.  Some such people have gained
substantial political authority, to the point that they are making laws and
determining which educational institutions are able to continue operating.
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From efc at swisscows.email  Sat Jun 10 19:49:04 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 21:49:04 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Who is we?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhmkCGhPhceFz9mJ-bd+FiU7-hns=2WSMc+vfAs+XOo2g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhmkCGhPhceFz9mJ-bd+FiU7-hns=2WSMc+vfAs+XOo2g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <35150f84-7aa1-dca7-8995-84e2a55d41bd@swisscows.email>

Haha, had no idea! =)

I just find it annoying when it comes up in meetings at work. In my 
experience it is used in order to silence people and give the impression 
of a false consensus.

Many a times at work I've had fun scraping on the surface of "we" turning 
it into an "I". ;)

Thank you for the link!

Best regards,
Daniel


On Sat, 10 Jun 2023, BillK via extropy-chat wrote:

> On Sat, 10 Jun 2023 at 18:22, efc--- via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> Who is "we"?
>>
>> Best regards, Daniel
>> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Do you know the origin of this saying?     :)
>
> There was a popular USA TV western series called 'The Lone Ranger' originally
> broadcast in 1949 to 1957 about a Texas Ranger and his faithful
> American Indian companion Tonto.
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lone_Ranger_(TV_series)>
>
> MAD magazine produced a cartoon joke around 1958 which became instantly popular.
> The joke is approximately like this -
>
> The Lone Ranger and Tonto are riding across the plains when they see a
> group of Indians in full warpaint galloping toward them, tomahawks at
> the ready. The Lone Ranger digs in his heels and says to his faithful
> companion, ?Well, Tonto old friend, looks like they?ve got us
> surrounded.? Tonto replies, ?What do you mean ?we,? paleface??
> ---------
>
> It has become a classic riposte.   :)
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sat Jun 10 20:28:05 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 13:28:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Sabine Hossenfelder on transhumanism
In-Reply-To: <b10e38d4-2337-31b8-77c4-6ac13858db78@ziaspace.com>
References: <b10e38d4-2337-31b8-77c4-6ac13858db78@ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6tYKfdKtpwp4RpHZimRuYu6UZg-G7NdT9RbOvL_FHU3A@mail.gmail.com>

I am not going to dig up examples, but I have found her to be just
wrong on some subjects.

Keith

On Sat, Jun 10, 2023 at 9:56?AM John Klos via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> She always does an excellent job of explaining stuff, as she puts it,
> without the gobbledygook.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm8hLZ_-8Gs
>
> It'd be much easier to show someone this video than to try to explain many
> of the topics she explains.
>
> John
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From efc at swisscows.email  Sat Jun 10 20:35:39 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 22:35:39 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 237, Issue 13
In-Reply-To: <e08dfac4-3bdb-2cb3-4b17-1a4ff4270547@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.28.1686391670.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <e08dfac4-3bdb-2cb3-4b17-1a4ff4270547@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <9a7b47cf-9056-530a-f730-b281c536636b@swisscows.email>

Hello Ben,

On Sat, 10 Jun 2023, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote:

>             like Catcher in the Rye, you're in trouble. You can't avoid the culture wars, except by resigning. Even the
>             sciences aren't exempt from this. Teach biology
>
>       Why?
> 
> Catcher in the Rye, To Kill a Mockingbird, Huckleberry Finn, and many other works, contain what the media coyly call 'racial slurs',
> and depictions of racism. This is seen as unacceptale now, by people of a certain disposition, and some of them are determined to

Ahh, but it is not unacceptable to me. I read those books, happily and
couldn't care less what other people think. No culture war as far as I
can see, and the people who are offended by what I read, say and think,
usually are so sensitive that they stop seeing me. I find it very
liberating and a great way to filter out friends from hysterical people.

>       X, Y chromosomes and biological sexes and evolution are facts or the
>       currently best know explanation supported by science and experiment. Why
>       wouldn't you mention it? It has nothing to do with culture.
> 
> I agree. The facts themselves have nothing to do with culture. But teaching them does. When you teach, you are doing something that
> affects the culture. Kids that grow up understanding and accepting evolution are at odds with those who have creationist beliefs.

Ok, I think I see your point here. If you define culture loosely as "a
bedtime story that may never be contradicted by anyone ever" then yes, I
think I understand what you mean here. I do not subscribe to that
definition of culture, so for me, and most people around me, culture has
nothing to do with science, and teaching scientific facts is not
contrary to any "culture" I might belong too.

On the other hand, people who do subscribe to that culture have every
right to do that, and live as they please as long as they let me do the
same. Lowering the quality of my childrens education is interfering with
me, so that I cannot accept.

But I guess this is where the beautiful concept of polarization comes
into play. ;) These nut cases start their own schools, reject science
and make sure that generation by generation their culture will wane
since they stunt their childrens intellectual development.

> Those who understand that a clump of cells is not a person are at odds with anti-choice people who think that women should not have
> bodily autonomy. Someone who points out that everyone has XX or XY chromosomes (with the occasional abnormalities, like XYY syndrome)

I don't think I'm at odds with pro life people when I point that out.
They might be at odds with me, but I am not at odds with them until they
interfere with my rights, or the rights of any females in my family.

> So acknowledging reality becomes a cultural thing, because there are people who refuse to acknowledge reality, and think that those
> who do are wrong.

Well, yes and no. But yes, given a weird definition of culture I think I
get it.

>       If you believe X, and someone else believes Y, I can choose to not
>       believe in either or take either side. Of course X can define not X as
>       Y, but that is just plain silly.
> 
> Of course, but there's no shortage of people who are just plain silly.

Agreed!

> How many people do you think understand that Atheism is not a belief that there are no gods?

Oh, this used to be a facourite topic of mine during my youth! =) Aren't
there many versions of atheism?

> I've lost count of the 'discussions' I've had with people, trying to explain that atheism is not a belief. There are many, many silly

Do you think there is a possibility of a god, or that the possibility of
there being a god is 0%? I'm always open to proof, but lacking proof, I
think it is way more likely that there is no god, and in a sense more
elegant to have only the universe, than the universe + 1 item (or god).
Usually I call myself agnostic.

But I also find the idea of a pragmatic version of religion interesting
and I wonder if that could be called belief, or just self delusion? ;)

>       The best course of action is to refuse to take a side, refuse to
>       acknowledge the definition of not X = Y, and get on with science.
>
>       Of course you have all the right in the world to believe that I'm Y by
>       being not X, but I do not have to accept that.
> 
> What you accept or don't is beside the point. Especially when you can be hounded out of your job by those who don't accept.

I do not think it is beside the point. It is the entire point.

What might or might not happen to me if I believe or do not believe X is
a different question. Most, if not all people here believe in science
and the scientific method, most, if not all people here would deny that
and profess to be devout christians at gun point. That is nto playing
along, that is being a victim in a criminal situation.

So refusing to take sides, and realizing that you do not have to play
the game is the only antidote to the game. Anything else, or playing
along, will just lead to an evil world.

>             I don't really see how business is going to be any better, either. You either avoid showing minorities in
>             your advertising and branding or you don't. You're damned either way.
>
>       Or you just show what ever people you want and refuse to play the game.
>       If you engage, _then_, you lost. By just sticking with science and
>       rationality, you will solve the problem in the long term. No amount of
>       culture war and wokeness can beat natural laws.
> 
> My point is that you can't refuse to play the game. Show whoever you want or not, there will always be people who are opposed to
> whatever you do.

And you let them think and act in what ever way they want to think and
act, and you do not acknowledge it. That is "not playing the game".

If you define the game as something that can never be avoided, and I do
not share that definition, then this discussion is kind of meaningless.
;)

> The culture war and wokeness doesn't need to beat natural laws, it can still get you sacked or worse.

Unproductive, inefficient ideas will eventually lose out, and be
replaced by more productive and efficient ideas. The soviet union
crashed, cuba is slowly opening up, because it is inevitable. Bad ideas,
eventually get replaced by better ideas. That is how humanity makes
progress. If that would not be the case, we would not be where we are
today.

Best regards, 
Daniel



From efc at swisscows.email  Sat Jun 10 20:39:50 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 22:39:50 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] India and the periodic table
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSM5XLbA+Vm2x67z3vH_GnWQQMcZ9Lhy6ff-+hRQq=nDA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.21.1686325396.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <b4e8d8bd-44ee-acc8-9cd4-a486e70c3eec@zaiboc.net>
 <04d8fa55-89db-808c-6a5a-c007661406c6@swisscows.email>
 <CALAdGNSM5XLbA+Vm2x67z3vH_GnWQQMcZ9Lhy6ff-+hRQq=nDA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51d27841-83a1-dbfe-e8ab-8e3efe99362e@swisscows.email>


On Sat, 10 Jun 2023, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 2:55?PM efc--- via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>       X, Y chromosomes and biological sexes and evolution are facts or the
>       currently best know explanation supported by science and experiment. Why
>       wouldn't you mention it? It has nothing to do with culture.
> 
> Because some people have a cultural investment in that not being the explanation, science be damned.

So? Let them. As long as they don't interfere with me, they can do what
ever they like. Eventually they will fade away if they reject science
and technology.

> God.? Thus, they believe their culture matters in this matter of science.? Some such people have gained substantial political
> authority, to the point that they are making laws and determining which educational institutions are able to continue operating.

If such a person becomes a dictator, they still cannot control the laws
of physics, so eventually they will self destruct or the people will
have a revolution and throw them out.

On a more peaceful level, there is always the option of working around a
problem or moving away from the madmen. But it is not about culture, it
is about mad people and that has nothing to do with culture.

From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Jun 10 21:01:08 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 14:01:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] India and the periodic table
In-Reply-To: <51d27841-83a1-dbfe-e8ab-8e3efe99362e@swisscows.email>
References: <mailman.21.1686325396.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <b4e8d8bd-44ee-acc8-9cd4-a486e70c3eec@zaiboc.net>
 <04d8fa55-89db-808c-6a5a-c007661406c6@swisscows.email>
 <CALAdGNSM5XLbA+Vm2x67z3vH_GnWQQMcZ9Lhy6ff-+hRQq=nDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <51d27841-83a1-dbfe-e8ab-8e3efe99362e@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTbF61dnQg8nf0FZ3RiS33kPmuNvgRZR-RZvoZm+uKAjQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 10, 2023 at 1:43?PM efc--- via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Sat, 10 Jun 2023, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote:
> > On Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 2:55?PM efc--- via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >       X, Y chromosomes and biological sexes and evolution are facts or
> the
> >       currently best know explanation supported by science and
> experiment. Why
> >       wouldn't you mention it? It has nothing to do with culture.
> >
> > Because some people have a cultural investment in that not being the
> explanation, science be damned.
>
> So? Let them. As long as they don't interfere with me


That is precisely the problem: they wish to interfere with other people.


> Eventually they will fade away if they reject science
> and technology.
>

In theory.  The concern is short term, while they have not yet faded away.

Further, they're trying to reap the benefits of technology while rejecting
the realities of science.  They'd be quite happy for themselves to live
forever.


> If such a person becomes a dictator, they still cannot control the laws
> of physics, so eventually they will self destruct or the people will
> have a revolution and throw them out.
>

Given what they have control over, "self destruct" can include starting a
nuclear war that many on this list would not survive.  Extraordinary
measures were taken to prevent this the last time one of them was in charge
(and tried to be a dictator).


> On a more peaceful level, there is always the option of working around a
> problem or moving away from the madmen.


For too many of us, neither of those is an option.  To where, exactly,
would one move that would not suffer greatly from a nuclear war, even if no
nuclear weapons directly impact that area?  Also there's the practical
question of, to where would most of us move where we could continue to be
productive and effective, that is neither North America nor Europe, where
many of said weapons would impact?  The libertarian ideal of "just move
away" requires some place to move to, and there is no place on Earth that
is beyond sufficiently vengeful enforcement, nor will significant amounts
of off-Earth habitation become available during the time period when the
current iteration of the problem exists.

But it is not about culture, it
> is about mad people and that has nothing to do with culture.
>

Even mad people have their own culture, mad as it is.
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Jun 10 22:37:09 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 17:37:09 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Poster
In-Reply-To: <5dae5076-43f8-e023-f57d-ec387cd108d3@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.31.1686413882.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <5dae5076-43f8-e023-f57d-ec387cd108d3@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY_vYRFF2F410M21ooLH4v1y1Z0+EUfKmLYhGSK5m5AsA@mail.gmail.com>

There is a specific well-known community from a religion that doesn?t allow
this kind of thing.  Spike

What does 'doesn't allow' mean?  What and how do they stop such things?
bill w


On Sat, Jun 10, 2023 at 12:15?PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> On 10/06/2023 17:18, spike wrote:
>
> There is a specific well-known community from a religion that doesn?t
> allow this kind of thing.
>
>
> I still don't see how a poster of a nekkid woman (sorry, I mean a nekkid
> XX) would be religious discrimination. Against their rules, maybe, but
> discrimination?
>
> Ben
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Jun 10 23:03:54 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 18:03:54 -0500
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Thoughts on the manifesto of futurist
 science (1916).
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypWTOEQ6p=2rdkNEjOo_83Vtd_w_+JGmancLNmoNbbCN+A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyf4c6N8yB9AoTGtha8NywXpp7-q-vrZT4Sp_D8KgVs6KQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3L303i0XepH6m0nJr-P3fHCJMSpFn0Z1JEsZ+KnAVGsg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbywBvgQ--PSXe3P8peVwoMB4_mQKHnh05=VTNeiK5ndQ@mail.gmail.com>

I have read that there are people in science who think that thinking things
in terms of cause and effect is old hat, or should be.  We do have a strong
tendency to use cause and effect as as understanding of what is going on.
Maybe these people just want to know 'what' and 'how' and leave 'why' out
of the question.  Nondeterminists.  bill w

On Sat, Jun 10, 2023 at 5:55?PM Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, 10 Jun 2023 at 23:36, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 10, 2023 at 6:29?PM Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >> But why do you want to do it? There are only 2 possibilities, you
>>>> wanted to do it for a reason or you wanted to do it for no reason, in other
>>>> words it was random.  There's just no getting around it, you and I are
>>>> either a roulette wheel or a cuckoo clock. I can live with that.
>>>>
>>>
>>> *> Normally you do it for a reason. You pick the chocolate rather than
>>> vanilla ice cream because you like chocolate more. It?s your choice because
>>> you made it, using your brain. It?s a free choice because no-one held a gun
>>> to your head and forced you to choose it. You are responsible for the
>>> choice and therefore you have to pay for the ice cream.*
>>>
>>
>> It may not have been a gun but *something* made you choose chocolate
>> rather than vanilla; either that or you chose it for no reason and your
>> choice was random.  We're back to cuckoo clock or roulette wheel.
>>
>
> Usually the reason is that you prefer the one you choose. If you go with
> your preference it is called a ?free? choice, if you go with the preference
> of the person holding a gun to your head it is called a ?forced? choice.
> There is a real and important distinction here: people want to be able to
> make their own choices and they don?t like to be forced. That is the
> layperson?s understanding of the term ?free will?, and most modern
> philosophers agree that that is all there is to it, and the debates about
> whether we can be free in a determined world are misguided.
>
>> --
> Stathis Papaioannou
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAH%3D2ypWTOEQ6p%3D2rdkNEjOo_83Vtd_w_%2BJGmancLNmoNbbCN%2BA%40mail.gmail.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAH%3D2ypWTOEQ6p%3D2rdkNEjOo_83Vtd_w_%2BJGmancLNmoNbbCN%2BA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Jun 10 23:14:05 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 18:14:05 -0500
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Thoughts on the manifesto of futurist
 science (1916).
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypUOR5MiS8JzLtTGa1cEdvaA9peCfUgYwmAyiuuMhnMQYw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyf4c6N8yB9AoTGtha8NywXpp7-q-vrZT4Sp_D8KgVs6KQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3L303i0XepH6m0nJr-P3fHCJMSpFn0Z1JEsZ+KnAVGsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyfb5w2r4MxbW3Ux=FJvOFX1=h2bV8JBMJaH5KFA_M9u1g@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAKTCJyc2r5zYPfm0_Mu9N6K9HwnP2f5BgAxkiwQ7xeYM5yOhZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0AaKXGUiD-a5w7kxnK6VRRi6qqnUTJ60t=KGiWuuV49g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJydAbEQ752ReV0gWhAqxy46WzAmss_PJ_mq+vFV_BNSx_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0ow8RWmBjoVgTscJxiAxoVAgqLNfDgqhDcf26z4kRw4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyfxSMT42aqKJwMfg=jqWx_phjgoA_Qtz8YEGm59EjA7ew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypX45_i=PKq+00DcqwCoxkyeo0Dm7pXpLocbfFPpCrSvPA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2MpmjFvbcmfEQqqGCPB5yuTW5Fofun5EDioLaTD6ziRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypVDkuPxu+-NJVkcOfO8=DVSbjtkJ745JebfA4izSijFKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2sW-0whOPwg7LWmrHvWeWXSCuHzbJpcqaWHQ-0aiFosA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWWOWmqWmrSV3cj1BLCeFN6VCg6__-yZRUfM6R82VVtmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2uHf_VWyRBUeYFK4=xBpzbYFPGa4Jo4zBPDR58hihGGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWTOEQ6p=2rdkNEjOo_83Vtd_w_+JGmancLNmoNbbCN+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbywBvgQ--PSXe3P8peVwoMB4_mQKHnh05=VTNeiK5ndQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypUOR5MiS8JzLtTGa1cEdvaA9peCfUgYwmAyiuuMhnMQYw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbjszuxpn4RuxmREX6CzL1+DcaA+iu6BdSMrzFwVhqqiQ@mail.gmail.com>

I don't think that any creature performs random behaviors.  Just imagine a
person behaving randomly: he sits, he sings a line of a song, he
twitches his right foot, and so on.  THis is more or less random and you
never see anything like it, even in psychotic fits, which I have observed.
Bill w

On Sat, Jun 10, 2023 at 6:09?PM Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, 11 Jun 2023 at 00:04, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I have read that there are people in science who think that thinking
>> things in terms of cause and effect is old hat, or should be.  We do have a
>> strong tendency to use cause and effect as as understanding of what is
>> going on.  Maybe these people just want to know 'what' and 'how' and leave
>> 'why' out of the question.  Nondeterminists.  bill w
>>
>
> If it?s not determined it?s random. It is still an open question in
> physics whether there are random events at the quantum level.
>
>> --
> Stathis Papaioannou
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAH%3D2ypUOR5MiS8JzLtTGa1cEdvaA9peCfUgYwmAyiuuMhnMQYw%40mail.gmail.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAH%3D2ypUOR5MiS8JzLtTGa1cEdvaA9peCfUgYwmAyiuuMhnMQYw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sat Jun 10 23:49:10 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 16:49:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Thoughts on the manifesto of futurist
 science (1916).
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbywBvgQ--PSXe3P8peVwoMB4_mQKHnh05=VTNeiK5ndQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyf4c6N8yB9AoTGtha8NywXpp7-q-vrZT4Sp_D8KgVs6KQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3L303i0XepH6m0nJr-P3fHCJMSpFn0Z1JEsZ+KnAVGsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyfb5w2r4MxbW3Ux=FJvOFX1=h2bV8JBMJaH5KFA_M9u1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv13FsU1bFc7Q67rvqboi5o-eQbi718-iiPGi0gAsODiiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyc2r5zYPfm0_Mu9N6K9HwnP2f5BgAxkiwQ7xeYM5yOhZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0AaKXGUiD-a5w7kxnK6VRRi6qqnUTJ60t=KGiWuuV49g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJydAbEQ752ReV0gWhAqxy46WzAmss_PJ_mq+vFV_BNSx_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0ow8RWmBjoVgTscJxiAxoVAgqLNfDgqhDcf26z4kRw4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyfxSMT42aqKJwMfg=jqWx_phjgoA_Qtz8YEGm59EjA7ew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypX45_i=PKq+00DcqwCoxkyeo0Dm7pXpLocbfFPpCrSvPA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2MpmjFvbcmfEQqqGCPB5yuTW5Fofun5EDioLaTD6ziRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypVDkuPxu+-NJVkcOfO8=DVSbjtkJ745JebfA4izSijFKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2sW-0whOPwg7LWmrHvWeWXSCuHzbJpcqaWHQ-0aiFosA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWWOWmqWmrSV3cj1BLCeFN6VCg6__-yZRUfM6R82VVtmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2uHf_VWyRBUeYFK4=xBpzbYFPGa4Jo4zBPDR58hihGGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWTOEQ6p=2rdkNEjOo_83Vtd_w_+JGmancLNmoNbbCN+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbywBvgQ--PSXe3P8peVwoMB4_mQKHnh05=VTNeiK5ndQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4QuBZLvB9=E9euJdVSc=J5EU7bJvREHED8CHaYd1X_eg@mail.gmail.com>

"choose chocolate rather than vanilla"

Not me, I always get them both.  The local ice cream packages one that
is half and half and I have bought nothing else for a decade or more.

Keith

On Sat, Jun 10, 2023 at 4:05?PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> I have read that there are people in science who think that thinking things in terms of cause and effect is old hat, or should be.  We do have a strong tendency to use cause and effect as as understanding of what is going on.  Maybe these people just want to know 'what' and 'how' and leave 'why' out of the question.  Nondeterminists.  bill w
>
> On Sat, Jun 10, 2023 at 5:55?PM Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 10 Jun 2023 at 23:36, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jun 10, 2023 at 6:29?PM Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> >> But why do you want to do it? There are only 2 possibilities, you wanted to do it for a reason or you wanted to do it for no reason, in other words it was random.  There's just no getting around it, you and I are either a roulette wheel or a cuckoo clock. I can live with that.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > Normally you do it for a reason. You pick the chocolate rather than vanilla ice cream because you like chocolate more. It?s your choice because you made it, using your brain. It?s a free choice because no-one held a gun to your head and forced you to choose it. You are responsible for the choice and therefore you have to pay for the ice cream.
>>>
>>>
>>> It may not have been a gun but something made you choose chocolate rather than vanilla; either that or you chose it for no reason and your choice was random.  We're back to cuckoo clock or roulette wheel.
>>
>>
>> Usually the reason is that you prefer the one you choose. If you go with your preference it is called a ?free? choice, if you go with the preference of the person holding a gun to your head it is called a ?forced? choice. There is a real and important distinction here: people want to be able to make their own choices and they don?t like to be forced. That is the layperson?s understanding of the term ?free will?, and most modern philosophers agree that that is all there is to it, and the debates about whether we can be free in a determined world are misguided.
>>
>> --
>> Stathis Papaioannou
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAH%3D2ypWTOEQ6p%3D2rdkNEjOo_83Vtd_w_%2BJGmancLNmoNbbCN%2BA%40mail.gmail.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sun Jun 11 03:17:25 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 20:17:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Power Satellite payback analysis
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7hCqdTX54QORxZDZfn++zdSrMnKDvCZmwiTZ5fzrLBRg@mail.gmail.com>

I wrote this for the blog OFW, but I thought it might amuse people here.

Someone bitched about me saying that a power satellite would repay the
energy to lift it in

?a bit over two months? with

" Keith, I call rubbish on this. Post the study/paper documenting this
silly claim."

My response:

I can reconstruct this from a few numbers right here.

The mass of a power satellite is around 6.5 kg/kW (my work, but it is
about the center for others),

SpaceX big rocket burns about 4,600 tons of LOX and LNG to take 100
tons to orbit

CH4 takes 2 O2 to burn.

16 and 32 so the LNG is 1/3 of 4600 or 1533 tons of LNG to lift 100
tons. Or 15.3 kg of LNG to lift one kg.

So to lift enough for a kW would take 15.3 times 6.5 or 100 kg.
Methane is 55.5 MJ/kg or 15.4 kWh/kg. 100 kg would be 1540 kWh worth
of LNG. Davide by 24 hours per day and you get 64 days for the lift
energy to be paid back, little over two months.

This does not account for the energy it took to make the power
satellite parts, but that is small compared to the lift energy, even
aluminum is only around 1%.

I also left out the reaction mass to move the power satellite to GEO,
which might push the mass you have to lift up to 10 kg/kW.

But if you burned the LNG for power, the best you can do in a combined
cycle power plant is 60%. This factor makes the payback somewhat
shorter.

So using LNG for rocket fuel seems like a good idea compared with just
using it to make electricity.

If you find an error in my analysis, please let me know.


Keith


From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Jun 11 04:39:51 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 21:39:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Poster
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEY_vYRFF2F410M21ooLH4v1y1Z0+EUfKmLYhGSK5m5AsA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.31.1686413882.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <5dae5076-43f8-e023-f57d-ec387cd108d3@zaiboc.net>
 <CAO+xQEY_vYRFF2F410M21ooLH4v1y1Z0+EUfKmLYhGSK5m5AsA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007701d99c1e$c36b2070$4a416150$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] Poster

 

>>?There is a specific well-known community from a religion that doesn?t allow this kind of thing.  spike

>?What does 'doesn't allow' mean?  What and how do they stop such things?  bill w

 

 

Billw, at the high school where I work with science Olympiad students is a guy who is clearly gay, but cannot express it because his family is from the Middle East and are part of a religion which flatly refuses to allow homosexuality.  They are in America but not of America.  He?s a nice kid, but every time I am anywhere near him, I get the unstated vibe.  I don?t know what the heck he is going to do, but probably finish high school, move far away, then quietly be what he is.

 

In the long time agos, Henry Ford imported immigrants to his car factory as strike breakers and to torment the local Jews, who Ford hated.  That community still exists in that area, long after the car factory has mostly gone extinct.  They are not kidding: no gay allowed in that society.  It is not tolerated.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sun Jun 11 05:28:32 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 22:28:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Power Satellite payback analysis
In-Reply-To: <89BEF82A-863D-430F-9726-A93B84711E4C@mac.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7hCqdTX54QORxZDZfn++zdSrMnKDvCZmwiTZ5fzrLBRg@mail.gmail.com>
 <89BEF82A-863D-430F-9726-A93B84711E4C@mac.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4e8juQhOTKZRUqQA1yr+VvAbXwFJGG66d7zGSLoHb8PA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 10, 2023 at 9:19?PM William Arnett <waarnett at mac.com> wrote:
>
> Yes, but how long to pay back the dollar cost of the launch?

The model to get competitive power is $200/kg or $1300 per kW.  That's
based on $100/kg to LEO and no more than a factor of 2 to GEO.  This
is speculative but looks possible with self-powering out to GEO.

The total including parts and the rectenna is $2400/kW or $2.4 B/GW or
$12 B for a 5 GW power satellite. That's about 1/4 of the cost per GW
of a nuclear plant and the power cost is about 3 cents per kWh.  The
factor from levelized cost of electricity to cents per kWh is around
80,000 to one which happens to be about the hours in ten years.

If they can last 100 flights, the cost of the rocket can be ignored as
lost in the noise.

Keith


> ?
> Bill Arnett
> bill at arnett.us.com
>
> > On Jun 10, 2023, at 8:18 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > ?I wrote this for the blog OFW, but I thought it might amuse people here.
> >
> > Someone bitched about me saying that a power satellite would repay the
> > energy to lift it in
> >
> > ?a bit over two months? with
> >
> > " Keith, I call rubbish on this. Post the study/paper documenting this
> > silly claim."
> >
> > My response:
> >
> > I can reconstruct this from a few numbers right here.
> >
> > The mass of a power satellite is around 6.5 kg/kW (my work, but it is
> > about the center for others),
> >
> > SpaceX big rocket burns about 4,600 tons of LOX and LNG to take 100
> > tons to orbit
> >
> > CH4 takes 2 O2 to burn.
> >
> > 16 and 32 so the LNG is 1/3 of 4600 or 1533 tons of LNG to lift 100
> > tons. Or 15.3 kg of LNG to lift one kg.
> >
> > So to lift enough for a kW would take 15.3 times 6.5 or 100 kg.
> > Methane is 55.5 MJ/kg or 15.4 kWh/kg. 100 kg would be 1540 kWh worth
> > of LNG. Davide by 24 hours per day and you get 64 days for the lift
> > energy to be paid back, little over two months.
> >
> > This does not account for the energy it took to make the power
> > satellite parts, but that is small compared to the lift energy, even
> > aluminum is only around 1%.
> >
> > I also left out the reaction mass to move the power satellite to GEO,
> > which might push the mass you have to lift up to 10 kg/kW.
> >
> > But if you burned the LNG for power, the best you can do in a combined
> > cycle power plant is 60%. This factor makes the payback somewhat
> > shorter.
> >
> > So using LNG for rocket fuel seems like a good idea compared with just
> > using it to make electricity.
> >
> > If you find an error in my analysis, please let me know.
> >
> >
> > Keith


From ben at zaiboc.net  Sun Jun 11 09:03:25 2023
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2023 10:03:25 +0100
Subject: [ExI] India and the periodic table
In-Reply-To: <mailman.33.1686438869.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.33.1686438869.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <e7243289-089c-92cd-8c73-ea6f5490abfa@zaiboc.net>


On 11/06/2023 00:14, swisscows wrote:
> As long as they don't interfere with me...

Daniel, that is precisely the problem. They /will/ interfere with you, 
if they can.

Asymmetrical tolerance doesn't work. You can be as tolerant as you like 
with a jihadist, an anti-choice proponent (I don't like to use the term 
'pro-life' because that is colluding in their own propaganda. They are 
only 'pro' life that hasn't actually started yet, and are definitely 
'anti' actual living people's freedom of choice) or the chinese 
communists, but they certainly won't be tolerant of you and your 
beliefs. A gay person, or an atheist, in Saudi Arabia can be as tolerant 
as they like towards the regime, the tolerance won't be reciprocated. 
Same with an accidentally-pregnant teenage girl in the american deep 
south, or a proponent of democracy in china.

So with intolerant people, the only thing you can do is oppose them. Or 
give in to them. There is no neutrality.

Imagine a couple of scenarios:

A lesbian atheist in Saudia Arabia (or Iran)

A poor teenage girl in Kentucky that has been raped and is now pregnant, 
and wants to get rid of it.

What are their choices? How can they live the lives they want to live?

Put yourself in their shoes. What would you do?

For most of the people in this world, "as long as they don't interfere 
with me..." isn't a possibility.

Ben
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From efc at swisscows.email  Sun Jun 11 09:58:27 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2023 11:58:27 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] India and the periodic table
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTbF61dnQg8nf0FZ3RiS33kPmuNvgRZR-RZvoZm+uKAjQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.21.1686325396.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <b4e8d8bd-44ee-acc8-9cd4-a486e70c3eec@zaiboc.net>
 <04d8fa55-89db-808c-6a5a-c007661406c6@swisscows.email>
 <CALAdGNSM5XLbA+Vm2x67z3vH_GnWQQMcZ9Lhy6ff-+hRQq=nDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <51d27841-83a1-dbfe-e8ab-8e3efe99362e@swisscows.email>
 <CALAdGNTbF61dnQg8nf0FZ3RiS33kPmuNvgRZR-RZvoZm+uKAjQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <25259315-444f-0f44-71d2-ac71293a951c@swisscows.email>

Hello Adrian,

On Sat, 10 Jun 2023, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote:

>       So? Let them. As long as they don't interfere with me
> 
> That is?precisely?the problem: they wish to interfere with other people.

I think, at some level, everyone interfers (or tries to
interfere/manipulate) with at least someone at some level. Since we are
a social species, I'd call this "nature". Then of course, there are
hermits, but I imagine the nr of hermits who are truly self sufficient
and have no need to ever see anyone to be small enough to be ignored.

>       Eventually they will fade away if they reject science
>       and technology.
> 
> In?theory.? The concern is short term, while they have not yet faded away.

Ahh, yes, ok, short term view, that changes the equation. I think given
the rest of your email below, that I now understand your position
better.

>       If such a person becomes a dictator, they still cannot control the laws
>       of physics, so eventually they will self destruct or the people will
>       have a revolution and throw them out.
> 
> Given what they have control over, "self destruct" can include starting a nuclear war that many on this list would not survive.?
> Extraordinary measures were taken to prevent this the last time one of them was in charge (and tried to be a dictator).

I have no proof of course, but generally people tend to want to live
over not living, and we've had the capability to destroy ourselves many
times over, and that capability has (and is) in the hands of some
madmen. Yet, we have not done so. For me, this indicates that at the end
of the day, the humam being is a positive being who is rational when it
really matters.

But of course, as it says in every investing commercial, historical
performance does not guarantee future performance, so I understand that
skeptical people who are not wearing my rose tinted (long term) lenses
worry a lot about this.

And I confess that apart from the above I have no proof that
conclusively proves that X won't happen in the future.

>       On a more peaceful level, there is always the option of working around a
>       problem or moving away from the madmen.
> 
> For too many of us, neither of those is an option.? To where, exactly, would one move that would not suffer greatly from a nuclear
> war, even if no nuclear weapons directly impact that area?? Also there's the practical question of, to where would most of us move

I understand, and that is sad. I can only offer platitudes such as "work
together with like minded people", change place of work to a place not
controlled by madmen and criminals.

> where we could continue to be productive and effective, that is neither North America nor Europe, where many of said weapons would
> impact?? The libertarian ideal of "just move away" requires some place to move to, and there is no place on Earth that is beyond
> sufficiently vengeful enforcement, nor will significant amounts of off-Earth habitation become available during the time period when

Depends on the level of nuclear war. There's far north, far  south,
africa, south america. The earth is a big place. Moving to a different
country can be scary, but once done you'll most likely find it to be a
very enriching and rewarding experience. I've lived in 6 countries so
far.

Also, given my personality, I find it counter productive to worry about
and plan for nuclear war. But I do understand that for many this is not
the case, but cannot offer any logically irrefutable proofs or
statements why it could not happen.

So _personally_ nuclear war is nothing I worry about, and _personally_
I've successfully moved to countries that are better aligned with my
values. If everyone does, the decline (in the long term) of the reign of
madmen will go quicker.

>       But it is not about culture, it
>       is about mad people and that has nothing to do with culture.
> 
> Even mad people have their own culture, mad as it is.?

Well, I call that mental sickness and not culture.

Best regards, 
Daniel

From efc at swisscows.email  Sun Jun 11 10:10:26 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2023 12:10:26 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] India and the periodic table
In-Reply-To: <e7243289-089c-92cd-8c73-ea6f5490abfa@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.33.1686438869.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <e7243289-089c-92cd-8c73-ea6f5490abfa@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <bc324635-bb6b-bde1-91e2-74a626c4b66a@swisscows.email>

Hello Ben,

On Sun, 11 Jun 2023, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote:

>       As long as they don't interfere with me...
> 
> Daniel, that is precisely the problem. They will interfere with you, if they can.

That's the key here for me, if they can. Yes, maybe they can, maybe they
can't. If you (or I) structured our lives in such a way that they
cannot, then that's good, right? =)

> Asymmetrical tolerance doesn't work. You can be as tolerant as you like with a jihadist, an anti-choice proponent (I don't like to
> use the term 'pro-life' because that is colluding in their own propaganda. They are only 'pro' life that hasn't actually started yet,
> and are definitely 'anti' actual living people's freedom of choice) or the chinese communists, but they certainly won't be tolerant
> of you and your beliefs. A gay person, or an atheist, in Saudi Arabia can be as tolerant as they like towards the regime, the
> tolerance won't be reciprocated. Same with an accidentally-pregnant teenage girl in the american deep south, or a proponent of
> democracy in china.

When we are talking about interference, I view that as an attack, and I
am in favour of people being allowed to defend themselves. Attacking
others has nothing to do with culture, I would argue that it is in fact
the opposite, a lack of culture. But I think maybe that we could find a
better world here. I don't quite like culture since it is so vague.

> So with intolerant people, the only thing you can do is oppose them. Or give in to them. There is no neutrality.

I don't think I agree with "only thing". But in repelling and attack, it
means someone attacked you first, and of course, if you can and want,
you can defend yourself. There is neutrality as well. First of all, I do
not actively have to let the world know at every possible opportunity
what my views are and try to convert them.

So to give you an example, in the country side where I live from time to
time, there are nazis. We live happily side by side, although the
interaction between us is very limited. In fact, the interaction between
them and the village is very limited.

They are intolerant, I do not agree with their beliefs, but we live side
by side.

Now what I mean is that I could go to them and preach the gospel of
libertarianism and capitalism, and that would possibly start a chain of
events with negative outcomes.

So as far as they are concerned, I live my life and they life theirs,
and neither trys to convert the other.

Once there was a guy on the political left who did try to convert them,
or at least provocatively state his views and that started a vendetta
where one car was smashed and another car was burned, and eventually I
think, someone did a bit of prison time. He choose the path of
opposition, and both paid the price.

So horses for courses I guess, moderated by the fact that I do not know
where you live and what you have to put up with in your daily life.

> Imagine a couple of scenarios:
> 
> A lesbian atheist in Saudia Arabia (or Iran)
> 
> What are their choices? How can they live the lives they want to live?

To move somewhere else, find a community that supports their values,
travel to a state that supports abortion, find an underground doctors
that performs abortion?

> For most of the people in this world, "as long as they don't interfere with me..." isn't a possibility.

The world is not a perfect place, but I don't think "most" applies here.
For many people "non-interference/neutrality" is a very good option and
probably for more people than you think.

But yes, for many it is not an option, but that is not due to culture,
but due to mental sickness and criminals, and mental sickness and
criminals is not what I mean by culture.

Best regards, 
Daniel



From efc at swisscows.email  Sun Jun 11 10:15:24 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2023 12:15:24 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Writing a book?
Message-ID: <5ee0fc0f-3138-dd34-ec31-849349bcf694@swisscows.email>

Hello guys,

Since I'm scaling back/finishing a customer engagement this autumn I've 
been trying to think about what to do instead to avoid getting bored, and 
I thought about writing a book as one of my options.

I thought about writing a book about how technology intersects with 
classical liberalism and helps people becoming more free and my favourite 
journalist (national newspaper) loved the idea as well as my business 
associate who works with PR/marketing (they are both classical liberals of 
varying degrees of extremism).

Now I wonder, what do you think of the idea? Has it been done to death 
already? I would write it for the swedish market so if it has been done to 
death in the US that might not necessarily stop me from a swedish version.

Now the second thing I wonder about is the project of "writing a book". 
Apart from my masters thesis in philosophy, I've never written anything 
longer than 50 pages or so for work.

Are there any authors out there and do you have any advice for someones 
first attempt at writing a book?

Best regards,
Daniel



From ben at zaiboc.net  Sun Jun 11 10:19:38 2023
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2023 11:19:38 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Men in Skirts
In-Reply-To: <mailman.33.1686438869.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.33.1686438869.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <4e95e228-bfcd-18bf-5f2d-5153f76f2c00@zaiboc.net>


On 11/06/2023 00:14, Adrian Tymes wrote:
> Sure, but what does it mean to be an XY?? People - seeing that this is 
> an attempt to dodge the?definitions of "man" and "woman" - will attach 
> meanings beyond literally just having those chromosomes. Many of those 
> meanings will not be universally applicable but people will wrongly 
> treat them as if they are, winding back up at more or less the current 
> problem.

So, you're saying that my idea to sell chromosomal toilet door signs is 
a non-starter?

Damn.

"...meanings beyond literally just having those chromosomes". Actually, 
does that matter? If an XY claims to be an XX, or vice-versa, it can be 
disproven. Anything extra that you assign is irrelevant to which you are 
in genetic terms. If you have had puberty blockers, hormone treatments, 
and sugery, you're still going to be the same XX or XY.

Yeah, you're right, it won't help. It's probably pointless to try 
anyway. We're just going to have to accept that people can claim to be 
whatever they want. Let the repressive regimes and? sporting 
associations get themselves tied up in knots about it, while we change 
all our door signs to just say "TOILET", "CHANGING ROOM", etc. (that 
seems to be happening already, actually, I've been in two places this 
year (an office and a university), where people with body types ranging 
from masculine to feminine were using the same facilities). Three, if 
you count a restaurant that just had a 'disabled' toilet. Actually, come 
to think of it, lots of cafes just have that these days. Ha!, it's been 
happening for a while, and I never realised it.

Ben

From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Jun 11 11:34:50 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2023 12:34:50 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Writing a book?
In-Reply-To: <5ee0fc0f-3138-dd34-ec31-849349bcf694@swisscows.email>
References: <5ee0fc0f-3138-dd34-ec31-849349bcf694@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgXXAi4yWethCc0U8A2t06rvO5nZGC+XGeufgLu4MtRMg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 11 Jun 2023 at 11:19, efc--- via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Hello guys,
>
> Since I'm scaling back/finishing a customer engagement this autumn I've
> been trying to think about what to do instead to avoid getting bored, and
> I thought about writing a book as one of my options.
>
<snip>
>
> Are there any authors out there and do you have any advice for someones
> first attempt at writing a book?
>
> Best regards, Daniel
> _______________________________________________


Well, every author in the world must have asked this question.  :)
There should be plenty of self-help and advice articles around.

Nowadays, I find that 'Just ask an LLM' gets helpful answers.
Try this as a start:
--------------------------------------

Writing a book can be a daunting task, especially if it's your first
attempt. Here are some pieces of advice to help you get started:

1. Start with an outline: Before you begin writing, create an outline of
your book. This will help you organize your thoughts and ensure that your
book has a clear structure. Your outline should include a summary of each
chapter, as well as any key points or themes you want to cover.

2. Write every day: Writing is a skill, and like any skill, it takes
practice to improve. Set aside time each day to write, even if it's just
for 15 minutes. The more you write, the easier it will become.

3. Don't worry about perfection: When you're writing your first draft,
don't worry about making it perfect. Just focus on getting your ideas down
on paper. You can always go back and revise later.

4. Get feedback: Once you've completed your first draft, share it with
others for feedback. This could be friends, family members, or even a
writing group. Feedback can help you identify areas where your book could
be improved.

5. Edit ruthlessly: Editing is an essential part of the writing process. Go
through your book multiple times and edit ruthlessly. Cut out anything that
doesn't add value to your story.

6. Find a mentor: If possible, find a mentor who can guide you through the
writing process. This could be a published author or someone who has
experience in the publishing industry.

7. Read widely: Reading is one of the best ways to improve your writing
skills. Read widely in your genre and take note of what works and what
doesn't.

In summary, when attempting to write a book for the first time, start with
an outline, write every day, don't worry about perfection, get feedback,
edit ruthlessly, find a mentor and read widely.

Top 3 Authoritative Reference Publications or Domain Names Used in
Answering this Question:
1. Writer's Digest
2. The Creative Penn
3. Reedsy


*Organic Web Results:*

   1. How to write a first novel: 10 Do's and Don'ts
   <https://www.nownovel.com/blog/how-to-write-a-first-novel-guide/> Focus
   on building your world to the exclusion of compelling relationships ...
   This important advice on writing a first novel is courtesy of author Robert
   Twigger. www.nownovel.com
   <https://www.nownovel.com/blog/how-to-write-a-first-novel-guide/>
   2. Writing a Book For The First Time: 3 Easy Tips to Get Started
   <https://self-publishingschool.com/writing-a-book-for-the-first-time/>
Choose
   a strong point-of-view character and tell the story through their eyes. The
   more aware you become of writing rules the more they will ...
   self-publishingschool.com
   <https://self-publishingschool.com/writing-a-book-for-the-first-time/>
   3. How to Write a Book (with Tactics from Bestsellers)
   <https://blog.reedsy.com/how-to-write-a-book/> 1. Start with a book idea
   you love; 2. Research by reading genre-prominent books; 3. Outline the
   story; 4. Write the opening sentence ... blog.reedsy.com
   <https://blog.reedsy.com/how-to-write-a-book/>
   4. How to Start Writing Your Novel: 6 Tips for Beginner Novel Writers
   <https://www.masterclass.com/articles/how-to-start-writing-your-novel> 6
   Key Tips for Starting the Novel Writing Process ; 1. Choose a world you
   want to spend a lot of time in ; 2. Find a story idea within this world ...
   www.masterclass.com
   <https://www.masterclass.com/articles/how-to-start-writing-your-novel>
   5. How to Write a Book: Complete Step-by-Step Guide - 2023
   <https://www.masterclass.com/articles/how-to-write-a-book> 1. Establish
   a consistent writing space. ? 2. Hone in on your book idea. ? 3. Outline
   your story. ? 4. Do your research. ? 5. Start writing and ...
   www.masterclass.com
   <https://www.masterclass.com/articles/how-to-write-a-book>

----------------------------------------


BillK
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Jun 11 12:33:21 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2023 13:33:21 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Visualized: The 4 Billion Year Path of Human Evolution
Message-ID: <CAL_armioU0E=V4SXLwaB5yJe36qeCvDN5J7ToFHtyNrb2j9NUg@mail.gmail.com>

Human Evolution From Protocells to People
Published   June 9, 2023
By Mark Belan

<https://www.visualcapitalist.com/path-of-human-evolution/>
Quote:
The 4 Billion Year Path of Human Evolution

The story of human evolution is a fascinating one, stretching back in
an unbroken chain over millions of years.
>From the tiniest protocells to modern humans, our species has
undergone a remarkable journey of adaptation, innovation, and
survival.

In this article, we take a look at the key developmental stages in the
evolution of life on Earth that led to the emergence of Homo
sapiens?us!
----------------

BillK


From snapbag at proton.me  Sun Jun 11 13:21:11 2023
From: snapbag at proton.me (Dave S)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2023 13:21:11 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Writing a book?
In-Reply-To: <5ee0fc0f-3138-dd34-ec31-849349bcf694@swisscows.email>
References: <5ee0fc0f-3138-dd34-ec31-849349bcf694@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <_eha6c6frUEIYip-CEcRHEf8fY2QEgGCBudD_sUMzPLwHD32VDst0n2UX7F8BLrrn9arHCtZQeeanFGqM0vx1VMWNbDoyunvkI8lQONT4IY=@proton.me>

On Sunday, June 11th, 2023 at 6:15 AM, efc--- via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Now I wonder, what do you think of the idea? Has it been done to death
> already? I would write it for the swedish market so if it has been done to
> death in the US that might not necessarily stop me from a swedish version.

I don't know how well the subject has been covered, but you should do a little research on it first. You're not looking to write a bestseller, but you should try to contribute to the subject, not just say what's already been said.

> Are there any authors out there and do you have any advice for someones
> first attempt at writing a book?

If you know the subject and are passionate about it, the process should be pretty straightforward and enjoyable. I'd recommend finding a publisher. It's hard for self-published books to get traction. And a publisher can provide lots of help with editing, production, and distribution.

-Dave


From ben at zaiboc.net  Sun Jun 11 14:16:01 2023
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2023 15:16:01 +0100
Subject: [ExI] DIY genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: <mailman.33.1686438869.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.33.1686438869.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <b8311922-dac8-3483-8e80-e3f8d64d807d@zaiboc.net>


On 11/06/2023 00:14, John Klos wrote:
> She always does an excellent job of explaining stuff, as she puts it, 
> without the gobbledygook.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm8hLZ_-8Gs
>
> It'd be much easier to show someone this video than to try to explain 
> many of the topics she explains. 


Something in that video caught my attention. A guy suffering from severe 
lactose intolerance developed a cure for himself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3FcbFqSoQY

and follow-up, after a couple of years:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoczYXJeMY4

I'd be interested in reactions to this, from this extropian community.


Ben

From gadersd at gmail.com  Sun Jun 11 14:51:54 2023
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2023 10:51:54 -0400
Subject: [ExI] DIY genetic engineering
In-Reply-To: <b8311922-dac8-3483-8e80-e3f8d64d807d@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.33.1686438869.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <b8311922-dac8-3483-8e80-e3f8d64d807d@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <EB370A35-E67B-44E2-90A1-AE472A9E94F6@gmail.com>

> A guy suffering from severe lactose intolerance developed a cure for himself:...I'd be interested in reactions to this, from this extropian community.

Thanks for posting this. I would seriously consider this as I have many digestive diseases and being able to eat normal food would significantly increase my quality of life. I will research genetic engineering over the next few years and if no doctor will do it I will consider doing it myself if I determine that I can do it safely and effectively enough.

> On Jun 11, 2023, at 10:16 AM, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> On 11/06/2023 00:14, John Klos wrote:
>> She always does an excellent job of explaining stuff, as she puts it, without the gobbledygook.
>> 
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm8hLZ_-8Gs
>> 
>> It'd be much easier to show someone this video than to try to explain many of the topics she explains. 
> 
> 
> Something in that video caught my attention. A guy suffering from severe lactose intolerance developed a cure for himself:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3FcbFqSoQY
> 
> and follow-up, after a couple of years:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoczYXJeMY4
> 
> I'd be interested in reactions to this, from this extropian community.
> 
> 
> Ben
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Jun 11 15:51:44 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2023 08:51:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] reverse turing test (kinda)
Message-ID: <002d01d99c7c$9f6e1610$de4a4230$@rainier66.com>

 

Hey cool, a contest.

 

A version of the Turing test suggested that if a human and a computer were
each given a question or prompt, humans would not be able to distinguish
which intelligence wrote which response.

 

OK, ChatGPT can write responses to prompts, but it is easy enough to tell if
the answer is machine derived.  We have software to detect when essays were
written by ChatGPT, which is how that college was busted for having ChatGPT
write a letter to the students after a campus shooting.

 

It isn't perfect, but that imperfection gives me an idea.  

 

We could have a group of human competitors intentionally write in the kinda
formal stilted way ChatGPT writes.  Then a group of judges would look at the
responses, exactly one of which is GPT generated, and try to figure out
which one that is.  We could have arbitrarily many competitors and
arbitrarily many judges.  

 

A human competitor gets a point for each time they gets identified as the
GPT.  The GPT gets a point for each time it is identified as a human.  In
each round, there is no score if all the judges correctly identify the
software-generated response.  If the competitors fool all the judges then
there are as many points awarded that round as there are judges.

 

I think I can write in GPT.  Can you?  Are you better at GPT than I am?  Who
is the champion GPT-er?  Is it GPT?  Or are humans better at GPT-ing now?

 

spike

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From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Jun 11 16:06:51 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2023 17:06:51 +0100
Subject: [ExI] reverse turing test (kinda)
In-Reply-To: <002d01d99c7c$9f6e1610$de4a4230$@rainier66.com>
References: <002d01d99c7c$9f6e1610$de4a4230$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgfCW2zF5U8JnGdy+nM2Gt+j24vZeL143q55CdSvwvHsQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 11 Jun 2023 at 16:54, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Hey cool, a contest.
>
<snip>
>
> A human competitor gets a point for each time they gets identified as the GPT.  The GPT gets a point for each time it is identified as a human.  In each round, there is no score if all the judges correctly identify the software-generated response.  If the competitors fool all the judges then there are as many points awarded that round as there are judges.
>
> I think I can write in GPT.  Can you?  Are you better at GPT than I am?  Who is the champion GPT-er?  Is it GPT?  Or are humans better at GPT-ing now?
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


You can prompt GPT to write in the style of one or more famous authors.
So I guess it could always appear to be human when required.


BillK


From efc at swisscows.email  Sun Jun 11 16:20:49 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2023 18:20:49 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Writing a book?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgXXAi4yWethCc0U8A2t06rvO5nZGC+XGeufgLu4MtRMg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5ee0fc0f-3138-dd34-ec31-849349bcf694@swisscows.email>
 <CAL_armgXXAi4yWethCc0U8A2t06rvO5nZGC+XGeufgLu4MtRMg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <18bacf28-a0e8-80da-f202-63fede73e949@swisscows.email>

Wow, thank you very much Bill, for doing that search for me! 1, 2 and 6 
really resonate with me.

Best regards,
Daniel


On Sun, 11 Jun 2023, BillK via extropy-chat wrote:

> On Sun, 11 Jun 2023 at 11:19, efc--- via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > Hello guys,
> >
> > Since I'm scaling back/finishing a customer engagement this autumn I've
> > been trying to think about what to do instead to avoid getting bored, and
> > I thought about writing a book as one of my options.
> >
> <snip>
> >
> > Are there any authors out there and do you have any advice for someones
> > first attempt at writing a book?
> >
> > Best regards, Daniel
> > _______________________________________________
> 
> 
> Well, every author in the world must have asked this question. ?:)
> There should be plenty of self-help and advice articles around.
> 
> Nowadays, I find that 'Just ask an LLM' gets helpful answers.
> Try this as a start:
> --------------------------------------
> 
> Writing a book can be a daunting task, especially if it's your first attempt. Here are some pieces of advice to help you get started:
> 
> 1. Start with an outline: Before you begin writing, create an outline of your book. This will help you organize your thoughts and
> ensure that your book has a clear structure. Your outline should include a summary of each chapter, as well as any key points or
> themes you want to cover.
> 
> 2. Write every day: Writing is a skill, and like any skill, it takes practice to improve. Set aside time each day to write, even if
> it's just for 15 minutes. The more you write, the easier it will become.
> 
> 3. Don't worry about perfection: When you're writing your first draft, don't worry about making it perfect. Just focus on getting
> your ideas down on paper. You can always go back and revise later.
> 
> 4. Get feedback: Once you've completed your first draft, share it with others for feedback. This could be friends, family members, or
> even a writing group. Feedback can help you identify areas where your book could be improved.
> 
> 5. Edit ruthlessly: Editing is an essential part of the writing process. Go through your book multiple times and edit ruthlessly. Cut
> out anything that doesn't add value to your story.
> 
> 6. Find a mentor: If possible, find a mentor who can guide you through the writing process. This could be a published author or
> someone who has experience in the publishing industry.
> 
> 7. Read widely: Reading is one of the best ways to improve your writing skills. Read widely in your genre and take note of what works
> and what doesn't.
> 
> In summary, when attempting to write a book for the first time, start with an outline, write every day, don't worry about perfection,
> get feedback, edit ruthlessly, find a mentor and read widely.
> 
> Top 3 Authoritative Reference Publications or Domain Names Used in Answering this Question:
> 1. Writer's Digest
> 2. The Creative Penn
> 3. Reedsy
> 
> 
> Organic Web Results:
>  1. How to write a first novel: 10 Do's and Don'ts Focus on building your world to the exclusion of compelling relationships ... This
>     important advice on writing a first novel is courtesy of author Robert Twigger. www.nownovel.com
>  2. Writing a Book For The First Time: 3 Easy Tips to Get Started Choose a strong point-of-view character and tell the story through
>     their eyes. The more aware you become of writing rules the more they will?... self-publishingschool.com
>  3. How to Write a Book (with Tactics from Bestsellers) 1. Start with a book idea you love; 2. Research by reading genre-prominent
>     books; 3. Outline the story; 4. Write the opening sentence?... blog.reedsy.com
>  4. How to Start Writing Your Novel: 6 Tips for Beginner Novel Writers 6 Key Tips for Starting the Novel Writing Process ; 1. Choose
>     a world you want to spend a lot of time in ; 2. Find a story idea within this world?... www.masterclass.com
>  5. How to Write a Book: Complete Step-by-Step Guide - 2023 1. Establish a consistent writing space. ? 2. Hone in on your book idea.
>     ? 3. Outline your story. ? 4. Do your research. ? 5. Start writing and?... www.masterclass.com
> ----------------------------------------
> 
> 
> BillK
> 
> 
>

From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Jun 11 16:26:42 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2023 09:26:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] reverse turing test (kinda)
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgfCW2zF5U8JnGdy+nM2Gt+j24vZeL143q55CdSvwvHsQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002d01d99c7c$9f6e1610$de4a4230$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armgfCW2zF5U8JnGdy+nM2Gt+j24vZeL143q55CdSvwvHsQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003c01d99c81$82141a10$863c4e30$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
BillK via extropy-chat
...
>
> I think I can write in GPT.  Can you?  Are you better at GPT than I am?
Who is the champion GPT-er?  Is it GPT?  Or are humans better at GPT-ing
now?
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


>...You can prompt GPT to write in the style of one or more famous authors.
So I guess it could always appear to be human when required.


BillK

_______________________________________________


Ja.  So is GPT better at writing like a human or is a human better at
writing like ChatGPT?  Can we set up a human vs machine contest in each
emulating the other?

Which is the more accurate judge of that contest, the software or humans?

spike


From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Jun 11 16:27:55 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2023 09:27:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] reverse turing test (kinda)
In-Reply-To: <002d01d99c7c$9f6e1610$de4a4230$@rainier66.com>
References: <002d01d99c7c$9f6e1610$de4a4230$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTvyw3ZuF=f4LgvJQU-jCX=z-eem7ceNPxK+F1CR+PBow@mail.gmail.com>

Something like this is how AI detection programs are trained, I believe.

On Sun, Jun 11, 2023, 8:53 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> Hey cool, a contest.
>
>
>
> A version of the Turing test suggested that if a human and a computer were
> each given a question or prompt, humans would not be able to distinguish
> which intelligence wrote which response.
>
>
>
> OK, ChatGPT can write responses to prompts, but it is easy enough to tell
> if the answer is machine derived.  We have software to detect when essays
> were written by ChatGPT, which is how that college was busted for having
> ChatGPT write a letter to the students after a campus shooting.
>
>
>
> It isn?t perfect, but that imperfection gives me an idea.
>
>
>
> We could have a group of human competitors intentionally write in the
> kinda formal stilted way ChatGPT writes.  Then a group of judges would look
> at the responses, exactly one of which is GPT generated, and try to figure
> out which one that is.  We could have arbitrarily many competitors and
> arbitrarily many judges.
>
>
>
> A human competitor gets a point for each time they gets identified as the
> GPT.  The GPT gets a point for each time it is identified as a human.  In
> each round, there is no score if all the judges correctly identify the
> software-generated response.  If the competitors fool all the judges then
> there are as many points awarded that round as there are judges.
>
>
>
> I think I can write in GPT.  Can you?  Are you better at GPT than I am?
> Who is the champion GPT-er?  Is it GPT?  Or are humans better at GPT-ing
> now?
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Jun 11 16:41:13 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2023 09:41:13 -0700
Subject: [ExI] reverse turing test (kinda)
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTvyw3ZuF=f4LgvJQU-jCX=z-eem7ceNPxK+F1CR+PBow@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002d01d99c7c$9f6e1610$de4a4230$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNTvyw3ZuF=f4LgvJQU-jCX=z-eem7ceNPxK+F1CR+PBow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004801d99c83$89a17910$9ce46b30$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat

Subject: Re: [ExI] reverse turing test (kinda)

 

>?Something like this is how AI detection programs are trained, I believe? Adrian

 

 

OK so which is better at AI detection?  AI detection software or humans?  Can we set up a contest to see who is best at fooling AI detecting software?  How about who is best at fooling AI detecting humans?  Who is the world champion AI-fooling human?  Who is the world champion AI-detecting human?

 

Oh we desperately need a contest.

 

spike

 

 

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Jun 11 17:10:52 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2023 10:10:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] reverse turing test (kinda)
In-Reply-To: <004801d99c83$89a17910$9ce46b30$@rainier66.com>
References: <002d01d99c7c$9f6e1610$de4a4230$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNTvyw3ZuF=f4LgvJQU-jCX=z-eem7ceNPxK+F1CR+PBow@mail.gmail.com>
 <004801d99c83$89a17910$9ce46b30$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <006401d99c87$ade3dd50$09ab97f0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> > On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat

Subject: Re: [ExI] reverse turing test (kinda)

 

>>?Something like this is how AI detection programs are trained, I believe? Adrian

 

 

>?OK so which is better at AI detection?  AI detection software or humans?  Can we set up a contest ?

 

spike

 

 

 

The problem has been recognized.  AI-detection software is discriminatory against non-native English speakers according to Stanford HAI.  We yankees have long known that it is always easy to tell a non-native English speaker: their English is better than the native.  The non-native speaker has an advantage: they learned English from a text book and an English teacher.  The native learned it from other 4 year olds on the playground.

 

This Stanford HAI study claims that AI-detection software is identifying text written by non-native carbon units as AI more than half the time:

 

https://hai.stanford.edu/news/ai-detectors-biased-against-non-native-english-writers?utm_source=Stanford+HAI <https://hai.stanford.edu/news/ai-detectors-biased-against-non-native-english-writers?utm_source=Stanford+HAI&utm_campaign=b77d978350-Mailchimp_HAI_Newsletter_June+2023_1&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_aaf04f4a4b-b77d978350-199837799> &utm_campaign=b77d978350-Mailchimp_HAI_Newsletter_June+2023_1&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_aaf04f4a4b-b77d978350-199837799

 

Adrian you know what that means.  Them furriners are whooping our yankee asses!  We need to get with the program, set up a team to see whose country can fool AI-detection the most.  I suspect the Indians are going to tough to beat in the AI Olympics.

 

spike

 

 

 

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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sun Jun 11 18:38:29 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2023 11:38:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Power Satellite payback analysis
In-Reply-To: <CH0PR07MB8265B1EFDD9E8EDE4B93A1819D57A@CH0PR07MB8265.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7hCqdTX54QORxZDZfn++zdSrMnKDvCZmwiTZ5fzrLBRg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CH0PR07MB8265B1EFDD9E8EDE4B93A1819D57A@CH0PR07MB8265.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5T20_q+BmWk-OMtW=NwwpxxdxcJ+5qkOVfWVFXTNyNrQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 10, 2023 at 9:24?PM Kennedy, Robert
<Robert.Kennedy at tetratech.com> wrote:
>
> Keith,
>
> you can repost this to [extropy-chat] for me.
>
> That methane propellant doesn't get into the rocket all by itself, so divide by say 0.5 to account for the industrial effort (penalty) to get the methane out of the ground, liquefy it, and into the fuel tank.  That 15 kWh/kg becomes 30 kWh/kg.  On the other hand, that methane is not synthesized, it is primarily fossil in origin, so I'm not sure its energy should even be counted.  In other words, in terms of energy from human sources, that methane could be considered almost free for accounting purposes.  How free?  In the oil & gas sector, the "embedded energy" of hydrocarbon fuels is about 25%.  So multiply the 30 kWh/kg by 25%: say 8 kWh/kg of payload for the fuel.
>
> You should also factor in the cost of liquefying oxygen to a cryo-propellant.  It's 1 kWh per kg of LOX, times a factor of 30 (30 kg of LOX per kg of payload).  So, 30 kWh/kg of payload for the oxidizer.

Good point, I was only considering the fuel.

> However, you left out of your accounting the energy cost of the portions of the launcher's dry mass that are not recovered, plus a charge to amortize the reusable bits, since they won't last forever.

I think SpaceX intends to get the whole thing back.  If you assume 100
flights, the financial and energy cost of the vehicle gets down into
the noise.  This is a really rough calculation and did not go that
deep.

>To save you the effort of detailed calculations, you can do a horseback estimate of the energy embedded in manufactured products based on the USA's primary energy input of 97 quads, divided by GDP of $23 trillion, then triple the result for the higher intensity of the manufacturing sector.  This yields 13 MJ/dollar.  Now multiply that by the entire cost of Elon Starship, $100M, to get 1300 TJ.  Then discount by whatever proportion gets reused.  Looks like he gets both the booster and upper stage back.  Let's say 95% re-use, leaving 66 TJ for the 5% that's not recovered.  Then divide by your payload mass, 100,000 kg. I get a specific dry launcher charge of 667 MJ per kg, or 185 kWh/kg of payload.
>
> 8 + 30 + 185 = 223 kWh/kg of payload.

If it is really that high, then power satellites are not worth doing.
I have also looked at the problem from the economic return.  A power
satellite can't cost more than $2400/kW to keep the power cost at 3
cents/kWh.

> I don't think you should ignore the embedded energy of your SBSP.  So, take your estimated manufacturing cost per kilo, whatever it is, and go thru the energy-per-dollar process above to get a figure for specific embedded energy of the SBSP payload in kWh/kg.
>
> Add that to the 223.
>
> Then at last, you can divide the output of delivered electricity by the figure above to figure out how long it takes to hit energy breakeven.
>
> One last step, a simple one: take your total useful lifetime of the SBSP, and divide that by the time to breakeven above.  This will give you a dimensionless term called "energy return on energy invested" or EROEI for short.

I tend to use energy breakeven for comparison.  Wind in good locations
is around 6 months, PV solar is about a year.

> Wonks use this figure of merit all the time.  FYI, for terrestrial solar, wind, and nuclear, the EROEIs are all in the middle teens.**  Be curious what you get.  I'll bet it'll be huge.

It hardly matters.  The scale of the project is far too large on this
side of the singularity.  If you were going to replace 1/3rd of the
current energy use over 20 years, it would require 25,000 launches a
year.  Starting to consider mining an asteroid.

Keith

> ** you would be amazed/apalled how bad the EROEI for oil exploration and production has become.
>
> Robert (K3TVO)
>
> Robert G. Kennedy III, PE -- Senior Systems Engineer VI
> Direct:  865.220.4736 -- Main:  Mobile:  865.405.5806 -- Main:  865.220.4700 -- Fax:  865.482.6647 (new)
> robert.kennedy at tetratech.com
>
> Tetra Tech, Complex World, Clear Solutions?
> 1093 Commerce Park Drive, Suite 100 -- Oak Ridge, Tennessee 37830 -- www.tetratech.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
> Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2023 11:17 PM
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Power Satellite payback analysis
>
> I wrote this for the blog OFW, but I thought it might amuse people here.
>
> Someone bitched about me saying that a power satellite would repay the energy to lift it in
>
> ?a bit over two months? with
>
> " Keith, I call rubbish on this. Post the study/paper documenting this silly claim."
>
> My response:
>
> I can reconstruct this from a few numbers right here.
>
> The mass of a power satellite is around 6.5 kg/kW (my work, but it is about the center for others),
>
> SpaceX big rocket burns about 4,600 tons of LOX and LNG to take 100 tons to orbit
>
> CH4 takes 2 O2 to burn.
>
> 16 and 32 so the LNG is 1/3 of 4600 or 1533 tons of LNG to lift 100 tons. Or 15.3 kg of LNG to lift one kg.
>
> So to lift enough for a kW would take 15.3 times 6.5 or 100 kg.
> Methane is 55.5 MJ/kg or 15.4 kWh/kg. 100 kg would be 1540 kWh worth of LNG. Davide by 24 hours per day and you get 64 days for the lift energy to be paid back, little over two months.
>
> This does not account for the energy it took to make the power satellite parts, but that is small compared to the lift energy, even aluminum is only around 1%.
>
> I also left out the reaction mass to move the power satellite to GEO, which might push the mass you have to lift up to 10 kg/kW.
>
> But if you burned the LNG for power, the best you can do in a combined cycle power plant is 60%. This factor makes the payback somewhat shorter.
>
> So using LNG for rocket fuel seems like a good idea compared with just using it to make electricity.
>
> If you find an error in my analysis, please let me know.
>
>
> Keith


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Jun 11 20:48:21 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2023 15:48:21 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Poster
In-Reply-To: <007701d99c1e$c36b2070$4a416150$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.31.1686413882.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <5dae5076-43f8-e023-f57d-ec387cd108d3@zaiboc.net>
 <CAO+xQEY_vYRFF2F410M21ooLH4v1y1Z0+EUfKmLYhGSK5m5AsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <007701d99c1e$c36b2070$4a416150$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZRMVsh+6txymd=ggBA0yoQQL4JqdinCpySoMW_-0bP+Q@mail.gmail.com>

spike - no specific religion?   bill w

On Sat, Jun 10, 2023 at 11:42?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Poster
>
>
>
> >>?There is a specific well-known community from a religion that doesn?t
> allow this kind of thing.  spike
>
> >?What does 'doesn't allow' mean?  What and how do they stop such
> things?  bill w
>
>
>
>
>
> Billw, at the high school where I work with science Olympiad students is a
> guy who is clearly gay, but cannot express it because his family is from
> the Middle East and are part of a religion which flatly refuses to allow
> homosexuality.  They are in America but not of America.  He?s a nice kid,
> but every time I am anywhere near him, I get the unstated vibe.  I don?t
> know what the heck he is going to do, but probably finish high school, move
> far away, then quietly be what he is.
>
>
>
> In the long time agos, Henry Ford imported immigrants to his car factory
> as strike breakers and to torment the local Jews, who Ford hated.  That
> community still exists in that area, long after the car factory has mostly
> gone extinct.  They are not kidding: no gay allowed in that society.  It is
> not tolerated.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Jun 11 23:43:55 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2023 16:43:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Poster
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZRMVsh+6txymd=ggBA0yoQQL4JqdinCpySoMW_-0bP+Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.31.1686413882.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <5dae5076-43f8-e023-f57d-ec387cd108d3@zaiboc.net>
 <CAO+xQEY_vYRFF2F410M21ooLH4v1y1Z0+EUfKmLYhGSK5m5AsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <007701d99c1e$c36b2070$4a416150$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZRMVsh+6txymd=ggBA0yoQQL4JqdinCpySoMW_-0bP+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004501d99cbe$9661ee60$c325cb20$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Sent: Sunday, 11 June, 2023 1:48 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Poster

 

spike - no specific religion?   bill w

 

 

 

Not one that I want to name and be in the internet archives forever, just for having mentioned it.

 

Ja that one.  Homosexuality isn?t allowed.  Some countries are hanging people for that still.

 

spike

 

 

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From giulio at gmail.com  Mon Jun 12 17:22:29 2023
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2023 10:22:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] From Silicon Beach to the black sky
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfTUxi-WfigQeGxHu8atbdc09Ur54es7NP7y8f3MThaeA@mail.gmail.com>

>From Silicon Beach to the black sky. Thoughts on spaceflight and space
expansion from LA.
https://www.turingchurch.com/p/from-silicon-beach-to-the-black-sky
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Jun 12 23:01:50 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2023 18:01:50 -0500
Subject: [ExI] reading minds
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEahP8DnBd8KBrrAYvd=DfqRMbvzGP65ZFGhDp3htumgSg@mail.gmail.com>

https://neurosciencenews.com/thoight-text-ai-decoder-23437/

No mention of evil, like self-incrimination.   This will probably be in
court for years.  bill w
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From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Jun 12 23:22:15 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2023 16:22:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] reading minds
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEahP8DnBd8KBrrAYvd=DfqRMbvzGP65ZFGhDp3htumgSg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEahP8DnBd8KBrrAYvd=DfqRMbvzGP65ZFGhDp3htumgSg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNS82JjkQPX3Y5_AAxO+aHqqHpO1VVNXy9yBGXh_NDhTgw@mail.gmail.com>

Just wait for people to have a box that is claimed to be this, actually
just be outputting whatever the prosecution requests.

On Mon, Jun 12, 2023 at 4:03?PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> https://neurosciencenews.com/thoight-text-ai-decoder-23437/
>
> No mention of evil, like self-incrimination.   This will probably be in
> court for years.  bill w
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Mon Jun 12 23:27:23 2023
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2023 17:27:23 -0600
Subject: [ExI] reading minds
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNS82JjkQPX3Y5_AAxO+aHqqHpO1VVNXy9yBGXh_NDhTgw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEahP8DnBd8KBrrAYvd=DfqRMbvzGP65ZFGhDp3htumgSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNS82JjkQPX3Y5_AAxO+aHqqHpO1VVNXy9yBGXh_NDhTgw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-ontYXqS87mD4x7wFEnWWpwL7c0hKfV9c3KDqzVNBLqCWKQ@mail.gmail.com>

Wow


On Mon, Jun 12, 2023 at 5:23?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Just wait for people to have a box that is claimed to be this, actually
> just be outputting whatever the prosecution requests.
>
> On Mon, Jun 12, 2023 at 4:03?PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> https://neurosciencenews.com/thoight-text-ai-decoder-23437/
>>
>> No mention of evil, like self-incrimination.   This will probably be in
>> court for years.  bill w
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Jun 13 14:55:57 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2023 15:55:57 +0100
Subject: [ExI] GPT-4-generated pitches are 3x more likely to secure funding
Message-ID: <CAL_armiW5FgcUB3nCuF7YKzMBx0u2JXCWGPMY5cCt0beNxNJJw@mail.gmail.com>

GPT-4-generated pitches are 3x more likely to secure funding than human ones

Want to secure a hefty investment for your business? You may want to
use an AI chatbot.
Written by Sabrina Ortiz, June 12, 2023

<https://www.zdnet.com/article/gpt-4-generated-pitches-are-3x-more-likely-to-secure-funding-than-human-ones/>

Quotes:
Acquiring investor funds is a crucial component of the success of many
businesses. But it's easier said than done. Business professionals
constantly present carefully put-together presentations for investors,
only for many of them to be uninterested.

Clarify Capital, a small business lender, asked 250 investors and 250
business owners to rate a set of human-created and GPT-4-generated
pitch decks without letting the participants know that AI was
involved.
To make matters more interesting, the human-generated pitches were
successful ones that had secured funding in the past.
The results showed that GPT-4 pitches were overall more effective than
those made by humans. The AI-generated pitches beat out human ones in
quality, key element description, and problem description.
-----------

These AIs are sneaking in everywhere!  :)
BillK

From gadersd at gmail.com  Tue Jun 13 16:06:41 2023
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2023 12:06:41 -0400
Subject: [ExI] GPT-4-generated pitches are 3x more likely to secure
 funding
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armiW5FgcUB3nCuF7YKzMBx0u2JXCWGPMY5cCt0beNxNJJw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armiW5FgcUB3nCuF7YKzMBx0u2JXCWGPMY5cCt0beNxNJJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6D7F3427-41F9-4078-B347-B542E84E68D0@gmail.com>

> The AI-generated pitches beat out human ones in
> quality, key element description, and problem description.

Glory to the day when the lovers of complexity fall to the eloquence of AI. I foresee many unhappy lawyers and bureaucrats in the future. Or perhaps not, as government welfare lifts all our unshackled spirits.

> On Jun 13, 2023, at 10:55 AM, BillK via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> GPT-4-generated pitches are 3x more likely to secure funding than human ones
> 
> Want to secure a hefty investment for your business? You may want to
> use an AI chatbot.
> Written by Sabrina Ortiz, June 12, 2023
> 
> <https://www.zdnet.com/article/gpt-4-generated-pitches-are-3x-more-likely-to-secure-funding-than-human-ones/>
> 
> Quotes:
> Acquiring investor funds is a crucial component of the success of many
> businesses. But it's easier said than done. Business professionals
> constantly present carefully put-together presentations for investors,
> only for many of them to be uninterested.
> 
> Clarify Capital, a small business lender, asked 250 investors and 250
> business owners to rate a set of human-created and GPT-4-generated
> pitch decks without letting the participants know that AI was
> involved.
> To make matters more interesting, the human-generated pitches were
> successful ones that had secured funding in the past.
> The results showed that GPT-4 pitches were overall more effective than
> those made by humans. The AI-generated pitches beat out human ones in
> quality, key element description, and problem description.
> -----------
> 
> These AIs are sneaking in everywhere!  :)
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Jun 13 22:32:09 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2023 23:32:09 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Power Satellite payback analysis
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB5T20_q+BmWk-OMtW=NwwpxxdxcJ+5qkOVfWVFXTNyNrQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7hCqdTX54QORxZDZfn++zdSrMnKDvCZmwiTZ5fzrLBRg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CH0PR07MB8265B1EFDD9E8EDE4B93A1819D57A@CH0PR07MB8265.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAPiwVB5T20_q+BmWk-OMtW=NwwpxxdxcJ+5qkOVfWVFXTNyNrQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgC=sdOf5N06j0Q+muEJxRFJ4RkK+=f9VvxbNUUybFeJw@mail.gmail.com>

13th June 2023

First ever beaming of orbital solar power
The California Institute of Technology reports the first successful
beaming of solar energy from space down to a receiver on the ground,
via the MAPLE instrument on its SSPD-1 spacecraft.

<https://www.futuretimeline.net/blog/2023/06/13-space-based-solar-power-future-timeline.htm>

Quote:
In recent years, space-based solar power has attracted growing
interest from both governments and businesses. Driven by advances in
satellite technology, materials science, and energy transmission
methods, experts increasingly view it as a feasible option for clean
energy that is likely to be a commercial reality within the next two
decades.
---------------

BillK

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Jun 15 15:42:21 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2023 08:42:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [Extropolis] Solar Power Satellites
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB48L8pwM-wT7t1NO5xV8+O2pNWPH_OfroeWVR90F5h1Tw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv2z_PiX0jD3bUgV-8ZGGbis3Nxk10K6hhRk=07WtScpBA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAFA0qpWv3uNJJNEiRY7fw9QqQH-jD3H1Nctx0u1G9wRVgmJZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB4neGnbAT0Xic-7pywbBWYtyPMZFryTqt9KKPS4k8MkhA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0Fav06BG4FeyVJ=G9AQgfdYGqTFGURHaNTb5zb9OsJ_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB48L8pwM-wT7t1NO5xV8+O2pNWPH_OfroeWVR90F5h1Tw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB44=48VHffyY8BfBDujB2Hmv37pBo-ELJQGEFzKM--v7g@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 8:41?AM
Subject: Re: [Extropolis] Solar Power Satellites
To: <extropolis at googlegroups.com>


On Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 4:53?AM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jun 14, 2023 at 11:00?PM Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > It takes 64 days for a power satellite to repay the fuel needed to put it in orbit.
>>
>>
>> https://groups.google.com/g/power-satellite-economics/c/sL1zfrmHVqU
>
>
> Yes but the principal reason it costs so much to put something into geosynchronous orbit is not due to the high cost of rocket fuel, so I don't think that's the correct question to ask. I want to know something else.  By selling its electricity, how many centuries will it take to repay the bill for building and maintaining something larger than a supertanker and launching it into geosynchronous orbit?

That's not the way you do the accounting, but it takes about ten years.

I spent years working out the economics.

You can't charge much more than 3 cents per kWh to be competitive.
>From LCOE, the ratio between the cost of the power satellite and the
cost of the power is ~80,000 to one.  So the cost can't exceed
$2400/kW.  At 6.5 kg/kW, and $200/kg to GEO, the lift cost is

1300 transport to GEO
 900 parts
 200 rectenna
2400/kW total cost

It takes about ten years to repay the cost but the satellites should
last 20 to 50 years, maybe longer.

That's not really the problem with doing them.  If you want to replace
1/3 of the current energy and do it over 20 years, that takes around
25,000 starship flights a year.  At that flight range, damage to the
ozone needs to be considered.

I had NOAA work this out for the hydrogen-burning Skylon, but it needs
to be done again for LNG/LOX.

Keith

PS Details on construction and transport.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEkZkINrJaA


Keith

  I don't have a good answer to that question and I don't think
anybody else does either. When building something several thousand
times larger than anybody has before I don't think anybody can even
guess how much it will cost that will turn out to have been accurate
to within an order of magnitude.  But as I said, I'd love it if my
skepticism of Solar Power Satellites proved to be unfounded.
>
>   John K Clark
>>
>>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv0Fav06BG4FeyVJ%3DG9AQgfdYGqTFGURHaNTb5zb9OsJ_A%40mail.gmail.com.


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Jun 15 15:51:27 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2023 08:51:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>

Tue at a zoom meeting we were discussing that Ray Kurzweil now
predicts the possibility of immortality by 2030, people took me (and
the other cryonicists there) to
task about why we want to live a long time.

Here is a good reason, I don?t think we can figure out what is going
on at Tabby?s Star without going there. It?s 1470 light years distant
and

?Now, a new astronomical paper published on the prepublication science
site Arxiv.org says KIC 8462852 is not alone.

?In fact, it may be just one of a tight cluster of some 15 stars that
show the same bewildering changes in brightness.?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/tabbys-star-may-not-be-alone-as-study-finds-cluster-of-pulsating-stars/46ITNS5IJAQP444XEDA4YI7POY/


Best wishes,

Keith


From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Jun 15 16:35:26 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2023 17:35:26 +0100
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgscN__HJKkonFETRspqpJirMikpcXkD-dZ+rGoQ=Jm8A@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 15 Jun 2023 at 16:54, Keith Henson via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Tue at a zoom meeting we were discussing that Ray Kurzweil now
> predicts the possibility of immortality by 2030, people took me (and
> the other cryonicists there) to
> task about why we want to live a long time.
>
> Here is a good reason, I don?t think we can figure out what is going
> on at Tabby?s Star without going there. It?s 1470 light years distant
> and
>
> ?Now, a new astronomical paper published on the prepublication science
> site Arxiv.org says KIC 8462852 is not alone.
>
> ?In fact, it may be just one of a tight cluster of some 15 stars that
> show the same bewildering changes in brightness.?
>
> https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/tabbys-star-may-not-be-alone-as-study-finds-cluster-of-pulsating-stars/46ITNS5IJAQP444XEDA4YI7POY/
>
> Best wishes, Keith
> _______________________________________________


It would be a bit of a bummer if they spent a thousand years to get
halfway to Tabby's star and then their telescopes showed that the
brightness changes were all due to dust clouds after all.
Such long distance galaxy exploration must be left to AGI to do.


BillK


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Jun 15 17:09:25 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2023 10:09:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis]
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2E4Ku9vHzxFzzb6nWn1q2JvCmA4JSR0dgCOqP4ttVKUQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2E4Ku9vHzxFzzb6nWn1q2JvCmA4JSR0dgCOqP4ttVKUQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6nb49Hv17vmCwEXgXbRkY-2YKe_JTfJjZLiYLO0UOkOA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 9:25?AM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 11:51?AM Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > Tue at a zoom meeting we were discussing that Ray Kurzweil now
>> predicts the possibility of immortality by 2030, people took me (and
>> the other cryonicists there) to task about why we want to live a long time.
>
>
> It's nice to have another Cryonicist on the list, I've been a fully paid up ALCOR member since 2014. It would be great if becoming an ALCOR member proved to be unnecessary but I fear Kurzweil's prediction may be a little too optimistic, although he's got a pretty good track record of making correct predictions. And besides, I could be hit by a bus tomorrow.

You might note that Kurzweil is also an Alcor member.

>> https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/tabbys-star-may-not-be-alone-as-study-finds-cluster-of-pulsating-stars/46ITNS5IJAQP444XEDA4YI7POY/
>
>
> The thing I don't understand is that detecting a pattern in a signal is usually a sign of intelligence, but they're claiming that the randomness and lack of a pattern in a star's output is the sign of intelligence. So which is it?

Good question.  One star that does odd blinks is one thing, 15 of them
in a tight cluster is quite another.  I make no claims or
suppositions.

Keith

> There are plenty of astronomical phenomena that we don't fully understand, but I think invoking ET to explain them should be a last resort not the first one.
>
> Best wishes for a long life
>
> John K Clark
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv2E4Ku9vHzxFzzb6nWn1q2JvCmA4JSR0dgCOqP4ttVKUQ%40mail.gmail.com.


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Jun 15 17:11:41 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2023 10:11:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgscN__HJKkonFETRspqpJirMikpcXkD-dZ+rGoQ=Jm8A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgscN__HJKkonFETRspqpJirMikpcXkD-dZ+rGoQ=Jm8A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7XiWF-kSWREp9VkCMNfi6JbMbkGqT8FvWowGc0JZA9eA@mail.gmail.com>

I think you missed the important point, there are 15 nearby stars that
are also blinking.

Keith

On Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 9:37?AM BillK via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 15 Jun 2023 at 16:54, Keith Henson via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > Tue at a zoom meeting we were discussing that Ray Kurzweil now
> > predicts the possibility of immortality by 2030, people took me (and
> > the other cryonicists there) to
> > task about why we want to live a long time.
> >
> > Here is a good reason, I don?t think we can figure out what is going
> > on at Tabby?s Star without going there. It?s 1470 light years distant
> > and
> >
> > ?Now, a new astronomical paper published on the prepublication science
> > site Arxiv.org says KIC 8462852 is not alone.
> >
> > ?In fact, it may be just one of a tight cluster of some 15 stars that
> > show the same bewildering changes in brightness.?
> >
> > https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/tabbys-star-may-not-be-alone-as-study-finds-cluster-of-pulsating-stars/46ITNS5IJAQP444XEDA4YI7POY/
> >
> > Best wishes, Keith
> > _______________________________________________
>
>
> It would be a bit of a bummer if they spent a thousand years to get
> halfway to Tabby's star and then their telescopes showed that the
> brightness changes were all due to dust clouds after all.
> Such long distance galaxy exploration must be left to AGI to do.
>
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From gadersd at gmail.com  Fri Jun 16 00:29:22 2023
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2023 20:29:22 -0400
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>

> ask about why we want to live a long time.

That seems an odd thing to have to explain. Life is good, no?

> On Jun 15, 2023, at 11:51 AM, Keith Henson via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> Tue at a zoom meeting we were discussing that Ray Kurzweil now
> predicts the possibility of immortality by 2030, people took me (and
> the other cryonicists there) to
> task about why we want to live a long time.
> 
> Here is a good reason, I don?t think we can figure out what is going
> on at Tabby?s Star without going there. It?s 1470 light years distant
> and
> 
> ?Now, a new astronomical paper published on the prepublication science
> site Arxiv.org says KIC 8462852 is not alone.
> 
> ?In fact, it may be just one of a tight cluster of some 15 stars that
> show the same bewildering changes in brightness.?
> 
> https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/tabbys-star-may-not-be-alone-as-study-finds-cluster-of-pulsating-stars/46ITNS5IJAQP444XEDA4YI7POY/
> 
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Keith
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From efc at swisscows.email  Fri Jun 16 18:24:41 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2023 20:24:41 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>



On Thu, 15 Jun 2023, Gadersd via extropy-chat wrote:

>> ask about why we want to live a long time.
>
> That seems an odd thing to have to explain. Life is good, no?

I always find these immortality discussions very strange. For me, it is
not about immortality per se, but about choice. Being able to decide
yourself when you had enough.


From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Jun 16 19:01:48 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2023 20:01:48 +0100
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
 <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <CAL_armg4EoOi7LNrDtoVRUu_8eN=DHH8kQ_M9D-ngWyv+-u8Tw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 16 Jun 2023 at 19:27, efc--- via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> I always find these immortality discussions very strange. For me, it is
> not about immortality per se, but about choice. Being able to decide
> yourself when you had enough.
> _______________________________________________


Immortality is only a temporary consideration for humanity.
With nanotech and brain enhancements, maybe uploading as well, the
brain speedup involved will mean a huge increase in effective living
time. One day effectively becomes equivalent to hundreds of years.
They are already developing quantum computers and photonic computing.

The unfortunate side effect of speeding up brain processing though is
that interstellar travel times become even more impossibly long.


BillK

From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Sat Jun 17 16:25:18 2023
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2023 10:25:18 -0600
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
 <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <CAK7-ont69wub+uwtFqSwJQddmrOkkfzYXFTMnKkHFDp9tK_nKQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 12:25?PM efc--- via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Thu, 15 Jun 2023, Gadersd via extropy-chat wrote:
> >> ask about why we want to live a long time.
> >
> > That seems an odd thing to have to explain. Life is good, no?
>
> I always find these immortality discussions very strange. For me, it is
> not about immortality per se, but about choice. Being able to decide
> yourself when you had enough.
>

Being about choice is a good point.  But if that is the only point, are you
saying that morality is relative, or that there is no morality, right or
wrong, good or bad... choice?

Seems to me choosing to end things is necessarily a bad/wrong/mistaken...
choice.
Seems to me, survival is always, necessarily, better than not surviving.
That is why evolution must progress in all sufficiently complex worlds?
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Jun 17 17:27:24 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2023 12:27:24 -0500
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-ont69wub+uwtFqSwJQddmrOkkfzYXFTMnKkHFDp9tK_nKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
 <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
 <CAK7-ont69wub+uwtFqSwJQddmrOkkfzYXFTMnKkHFDp9tK_nKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYX0MeoWYn7muWEsR3LeChUviZnOx6vJn=Cvsv44Pomzg@mail.gmail.com>

There was a man in Tennessee whose wife killed him.  He asked for it -
begged for it.  Extreme pain that no drugs touched.  Could you say he made
an immoral or bad decision?  If one's life is nothing but pain, I would
consider suicide a great choice.  I don't have to make it, or at least
don't right now, but I would not hesitate to end mine if I were in constant
agony.  I never heard about the wife -whether she did any jail time, but I
think assisted suicide should be legal in every state.  Why should we have
to fly to Oregon to do it?  Whose body and mind is it?  It is NOT the
state's.

Or from my position, God does not come into it, though people will tell you
that your life belongs to him and to take your life means you have usurped
God's choice.  Not my view.   bill w

On Sat, Jun 17, 2023 at 11:27?AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 12:25?PM efc--- via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 15 Jun 2023, Gadersd via extropy-chat wrote:
>> >> ask about why we want to live a long time.
>> >
>> > That seems an odd thing to have to explain. Life is good, no?
>>
>> I always find these immortality discussions very strange. For me, it is
>> not about immortality per se, but about choice. Being able to decide
>> yourself when you had enough.
>>
>
> Being about choice is a good point.  But if that is the only point, are
> you saying that morality is relative, or that there is no morality, right
> or wrong, good or bad... choice?
>
> Seems to me choosing to end things is necessarily a bad/wrong/mistaken...
> choice.
> Seems to me, survival is always, necessarily, better than not surviving.
> That is why evolution must progress in all sufficiently complex worlds?
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Jun 17 17:38:10 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2023 10:38:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYX0MeoWYn7muWEsR3LeChUviZnOx6vJn=Cvsv44Pomzg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
 <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
 <CAK7-ont69wub+uwtFqSwJQddmrOkkfzYXFTMnKkHFDp9tK_nKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYX0MeoWYn7muWEsR3LeChUviZnOx6vJn=Cvsv44Pomzg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004b01d9a142$7c488060$74d98120$@rainier66.com>

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Sent: Saturday, 17 June, 2023 10:27 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] (no subject)

 

There was a man in Tennessee whose wife killed him.  He asked for it - begged for it?

 

 

 

 

I agree with you Billw.

 

It does seem he woulda been better off going to Oregon, but it should be the right everywhere.

 

spike

 

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From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Sat Jun 17 18:08:20 2023
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2023 12:08:20 -0600
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <004b01d9a142$7c488060$74d98120$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
 <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
 <CAK7-ont69wub+uwtFqSwJQddmrOkkfzYXFTMnKkHFDp9tK_nKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYX0MeoWYn7muWEsR3LeChUviZnOx6vJn=Cvsv44Pomzg@mail.gmail.com>
 <004b01d9a142$7c488060$74d98120$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onvrB1SJ=x+JqqOwr7sOkMVM_GuO8zikkfsUkjyYurbdYg@mail.gmail.com>

Yea, for sure.  I agree there are external situations which can justify
evil, as the lesser evil.
I should have realized you were thinking about this in this case.
And given that, I now realize and agree that choice is very important.


On Sat, Jun 17, 2023 at 11:39?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Sent:* Saturday, 17 June, 2023 10:27 AM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] (no subject)
>
>
>
> There was a man in Tennessee whose wife killed him.  He asked for it -
> begged for it?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I agree with you Billw.
>
>
>
> It does seem he woulda been better off going to Oregon, but it should be
> the right everywhere.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Sat Jun 17 19:01:40 2023
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2023 15:01:40 -0400
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
 <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <aec920132913c548bc8c845f6fbc36b6.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>



On Fri, June 16, 2023 14:24, efc--- via extropy-chat wrote:

> I always find these immortality discussions very strange. For me, it is
> not about immortality per se, but about choice. Being able to decide
> yourself when you had enough.
>

Choice please.  Don't you ever wonder if being kept alive by medical
heroic measures and care when you're obviously near/at the end is a $$$
game for the system?  What the patient wants seems to not matter.  What
the family wants also gets overruled.

Especially nowadays when pain killers are in the Fed spotlight, and
doctors who care are afraid?

Regards,
MB
... who has watched old and beloved family members ....  :(

From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Sat Jun 17 21:22:35 2023
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2023 15:22:35 -0600
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <aec920132913c548bc8c845f6fbc36b6.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
 <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
 <aec920132913c548bc8c845f6fbc36b6.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <CAK7-ont8p-KjYBkqkmt4Na+YwWAw1SZnfLPaYWyC6WD4WQZa2A@mail.gmail.com>

Evidently Charlie Munger agrees.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/charlie-munger-said-healthcare-providers-190014911.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9uZXdzLmdvb2dsZS5jb20v&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAK1f_xiTU-G6qjQYy33XHHAT12ImhqPdHb8TYMvp6LMVDMvGW7dPIB-l3p0nQNdQErEGnVOSFaBsysifBpq1SHsi1w6x5tSpFJtsEYoU6RFdlASn9IRxBwKRinuYnGqeOmeEutPtsRzdh-M7xC713AicJWXph3SG7hqLb9y04fkB



On Sat, Jun 17, 2023 at 1:05?PM MB via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, June 16, 2023 14:24, efc--- via extropy-chat wrote:
>
> > I always find these immortality discussions very strange. For me, it is
> > not about immortality per se, but about choice. Being able to decide
> > yourself when you had enough.
> >
>
> Choice please.  Don't you ever wonder if being kept alive by medical
> heroic measures and care when you're obviously near/at the end is a $$$
> game for the system?  What the patient wants seems to not matter.  What
> the family wants also gets overruled.
>
> Especially nowadays when pain killers are in the Fed spotlight, and
> doctors who care are afraid?
>
> Regards,
> MB
> ... who has watched old and beloved family members ....  :(
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sat Jun 17 21:50:43 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2023 14:50:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <aec920132913c548bc8c845f6fbc36b6.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
 <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
 <aec920132913c548bc8c845f6fbc36b6.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB427ErGpgk8eLq8aDu4CWXdihatkF5a1=kgnQNBA3Z79A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 17, 2023 at 12:05?PM MB via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> On Fri, June 16, 2023 14:24, efc--- via extropy-chat wrote:
>
> > I always find these immortality discussions very strange. For me, it is
> > not about immortality per se, but about choice. Being able to decide
> > yourself when you had enough.
>
> Choice please.  Don't you ever wonder if being kept alive by medical
> heroic measures and care when you're obviously near/at the end is a $$$
> game for the system?  What the patient wants seems to not matter.  What
> the family wants also gets overruled.
>
> Especially nowadays when pain killers are in the Fed spotlight, and
> doctors who care are afraid?

If we get to the technology needed for a really long life, you won't
be subject to such,  If you are signed up for cryonics, the directive
is to withdraw medical support when the transport team is ready.

Keith
> Regards,
> MB
> ... who has watched old and beloved family members ....  :(
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From gadersd at gmail.com  Sat Jun 17 22:51:03 2023
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2023 18:51:03 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Fwd:  (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <CE3D58BF-176E-4B9E-B7ED-AA5BE4ABA150@gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
 <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
 <CE3D58BF-176E-4B9E-B7ED-AA5BE4ABA150@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+2A8mxXx9-6WEQXw4-45X=j_0zBe_y75ku4eRYA-Yst+dkGeQ@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Gadersd <gadersd at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 2:53?PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] (no subject)
To: <efc at swisscows.email>


I always find these immortality discussions very strange. For me, it is
not about immortality per se, but about choice. Being able to decide
yourself when you had enough.


I must object to the use of the term ?immortality.? If the probability per
year of death is for all time greater than some number, ?, then with
certainty all beings will eventually perish. There will always be a nonzero
probability of accidental death that I think can be bounded by some number ?.
In any case there is the heat death to end the stragglers.

I agree that choice is essential. However, if given the choice to die or
live another day I do not see any person of sound mind who is free of
extreme distress choosing the former. I do not view adherence to death
cults, such as Christianity, as being part of a sound mind.

On Jun 16, 2023, at 2:24 PM, efc at swisscows.email wrote:



On Thu, 15 Jun 2023, Gadersd via extropy-chat wrote:

ask about why we want to live a long time.


That seems an odd thing to have to explain. Life is good, no?


I always find these immortality discussions very strange. For me, it is
not about immortality per se, but about choice. Being able to decide
yourself when you had enough.
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Jun 17 23:02:20 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2023 18:02:20 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <CA+2A8mxXx9-6WEQXw4-45X=j_0zBe_y75ku4eRYA-Yst+dkGeQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
 <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
 <CE3D58BF-176E-4B9E-B7ED-AA5BE4ABA150@gmail.com>
 <CA+2A8mxXx9-6WEQXw4-45X=j_0zBe_y75ku4eRYA-Yst+dkGeQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaPNgV7uvr1cDSr7Yr9OJAr5ejUa2tHDROHCSZnohJ9Ew@mail.gmail.com>

Christianity as a death cult?  I think of it more as a fear cult.  Fear of
not fitting in in society. Fear of Hell (though I know many Christians
don't believe in it).  Is a Christian any worse than a person who believes
in ghosts?  There are more believers there than in Christianity.  How many
people have a sound mind?  bill w

On Sat, Jun 17, 2023 at 5:53?PM Gadersd via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: Gadersd <gadersd at gmail.com>
> Date: Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 2:53?PM
> Subject: Re: [ExI] (no subject)
> To: <efc at swisscows.email>
>
>
> I always find these immortality discussions very strange. For me, it is
> not about immortality per se, but about choice. Being able to decide
> yourself when you had enough.
>
>
> I must object to the use of the term ?immortality.? If the probability per
> year of death is for all time greater than some number, ?, then with
> certainty all beings will eventually perish. There will always be a
> nonzero probability of accidental death that I think can be bounded by some
> number ?. In any case there is the heat death to end the stragglers.
>
> I agree that choice is essential. However, if given the choice to die or
> live another day I do not see any person of sound mind who is free of
> extreme distress choosing the former. I do not view adherence to death
> cults, such as Christianity, as being part of a sound mind.
>
> On Jun 16, 2023, at 2:24 PM, efc at swisscows.email wrote:
>
>
>
> On Thu, 15 Jun 2023, Gadersd via extropy-chat wrote:
>
> ask about why we want to live a long time.
>
>
> That seems an odd thing to have to explain. Life is good, no?
>
>
> I always find these immortality discussions very strange. For me, it is
> not about immortality per se, but about choice. Being able to decide
> yourself when you had enough.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From gadersd at gmail.com  Sat Jun 17 23:25:19 2023
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2023 19:25:19 -0400
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaPNgV7uvr1cDSr7Yr9OJAr5ejUa2tHDROHCSZnohJ9Ew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
 <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
 <CE3D58BF-176E-4B9E-B7ED-AA5BE4ABA150@gmail.com>
 <CA+2A8mxXx9-6WEQXw4-45X=j_0zBe_y75ku4eRYA-Yst+dkGeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaPNgV7uvr1cDSr7Yr9OJAr5ejUa2tHDROHCSZnohJ9Ew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <687EA70C-2EC3-4E3F-92B8-DB3BE3D5C88A@gmail.com>

> Christianity as a death cult?  I think of it more as a fear cult.

Christianity teaches people to not love the world as it distracts from the true goal of dying and meeting Jesus. One of my religious family members accosted me for eating healthy, asking why I would want to prolong paradise. Another family member told me she can hardly wait to die so that she can meet deceased family members. Many Christians desire death as they believe salvation only lies at death?s door. Fortunately most of them consider suicide taboo. I consider any belief system that promises salvation after death to be a death cult.

Death cults have traditionally been ok since preventing death hasn?t been an option. However, that will change and people will be faced with the choice to live or die. Then adherence to death cults will be a real hindrance to life.

> On Jun 17, 2023, at 7:02 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> Christianity as a death cult?  I think of it more as a fear cult.  Fear of not fitting in in society. Fear of Hell (though I know many Christians don't believe in it).  Is a Christian any worse than a person who believes in ghosts?  There are more believers there than in Christianity.  How many people have a sound mind?  bill w
> 
> On Sat, Jun 17, 2023 at 5:53?PM Gadersd via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>> wrote:
> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: Gadersd <gadersd at gmail.com <mailto:gadersd at gmail.com>>
> Date: Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 2:53?PM
> Subject: Re: [ExI] (no subject)
> To: <efc at swisscows.email>
> 
> 
>> I always find these immortality discussions very strange. For me, it is
>> not about immortality per se, but about choice. Being able to decide
>> yourself when you had enough.
> 
> I must object to the use of the term ?immortality.? If the probability per year of death is for all time greater than some number, ?, then with certainty all beings will eventually perish. There will always be a nonzero probability of accidental death that I think can be bounded by some number ?. In any case there is the heat death to end the stragglers.
> 
> I agree that choice is essential. However, if given the choice to die or live another day I do not see any person of sound mind who is free of extreme distress choosing the former. I do not view adherence to death cults, such as Christianity, as being part of a sound mind.
> 
>> On Jun 16, 2023, at 2:24 PM, efc at swisscows.email <mailto:efc at swisscows.email> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, 15 Jun 2023, Gadersd via extropy-chat wrote:
>> 
>>>> ask about why we want to live a long time.
>>> 
>>> That seems an odd thing to have to explain. Life is good, no?
>> 
>> I always find these immortality discussions very strange. For me, it is
>> not about immortality per se, but about choice. Being able to decide
>> yourself when you had enough.
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat <http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Jun 17 23:38:26 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2023 16:38:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-ont8p-KjYBkqkmt4Na+YwWAw1SZnfLPaYWyC6WD4WQZa2A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
 <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
 <aec920132913c548bc8c845f6fbc36b6.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAK7-ont8p-KjYBkqkmt4Na+YwWAw1SZnfLPaYWyC6WD4WQZa2A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00d601d9a174$d08d74f0$71a85ed0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

A relative has been told he needs a new heart valve.  Age 84.  

 

Yesterday he was being briefed on the operation he is facing.  He very logically asked ?Can we just let nature take its course??

 

I don?t see why not.  It damn well aughta be his call.

 

spike

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Brent Allsop via extropy-chat
Sent: Saturday, 17 June, 2023 2:23 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] (no subject)

 

 

Evidently Charlie Munger agrees.

 

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/charlie-munger-said-healthcare-providers-190014911.html?guccounter=1 <https://finance.yahoo.com/news/charlie-munger-said-healthcare-providers-190014911.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9uZXdzLmdvb2dsZS5jb20v&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAK1f_xiTU-G6qjQYy33XHHAT12ImhqPdHb8TYMvp6LMVDMvGW7dPIB-l3p0nQNdQErEGnVOSFaBsysifBpq1SHsi1w6x5tSpFJtsEYoU6RFdlASn9IRxBwKRinuYnGqeOmeEutPtsRzdh-M7xC713AicJWXph3SG7hqLb9y04fkB> &guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9uZXdzLmdvb2dsZS5jb20v&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAK1f_xiTU-G6qjQYy33XHHAT12ImhqPdHb8TYMvp6LMVDMvGW7dPIB-l3p0nQNdQErEGnVOSFaBsysifBpq1SHsi1w6x5tSpFJtsEYoU6RFdlASn9IRxBwKRinuYnGqeOmeEutPtsRzdh-M7xC713AicJWXph3SG7hqLb9y04fkB

 

 

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From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Jun 18 01:31:39 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2023 18:31:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <CA+2A8mxXx9-6WEQXw4-45X=j_0zBe_y75ku4eRYA-Yst+dkGeQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
 <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
 <CE3D58BF-176E-4B9E-B7ED-AA5BE4ABA150@gmail.com>
 <CA+2A8mxXx9-6WEQXw4-45X=j_0zBe_y75ku4eRYA-Yst+dkGeQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQSnA2WkG7jGwDrMv72wQOd_V0P_+xWQX-6b3Cs2BXMSw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 17, 2023 at 3:53?PM Gadersd via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I must object to the use of the term ?immortality.? If the probability per
> year of death is for all time greater than some number, ?, then with
> certainty all beings will eventually perish. There will always be a
> nonzero probability of accidental death that I think can be bounded by some
> number ?. In any case there is the heat death to end the stragglers.
>

Does this change with the introduction of backups from which the dead can
be resurrected (perhaps having amnesia about the time between their last
pre-death backup and their resurrection)?
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From gadersd at gmail.com  Sun Jun 18 02:13:25 2023
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2023 22:13:25 -0400
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQSnA2WkG7jGwDrMv72wQOd_V0P_+xWQX-6b3Cs2BXMSw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
 <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
 <CE3D58BF-176E-4B9E-B7ED-AA5BE4ABA150@gmail.com>
 <CA+2A8mxXx9-6WEQXw4-45X=j_0zBe_y75ku4eRYA-Yst+dkGeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQSnA2WkG7jGwDrMv72wQOd_V0P_+xWQX-6b3Cs2BXMSw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9F38BA94-6B72-4B35-B17B-625D9E087A05@gmail.com>

> Does this change with the introduction of backups from which the dead can be resurrected (perhaps having amnesia about the time between their last pre-death backup and their resurrection)? 

A case can be made that as backups are created over time the probability of the destruction of all backups may approach zero and therefore bypass the assumption that the probability of death per year has a lower bound greater than 0.

This will buy some time, but still doesn?t avoid the inevitable heat death. If the multiverse has sufficient variety then it may be that there exists a version of each of us where some being pulls us out of the ?simulation." Infinite other survival possibilities are also possible in a multiverse with sufficient variety. If all mathematical structures exist then these possibilities are inevitable, granting potential true immortality. The probabliity distribution of these possibilities remains unknown as we lack a theory of everything. Better not to put hope in speculation.

> On Jun 17, 2023, at 9:31 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> On Sat, Jun 17, 2023 at 3:53?PM Gadersd via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>> wrote:
> I must object to the use of the term ?immortality.? If the probability per year of death is for all time greater than some number, ?, then with certainty all beings will eventually perish. There will always be a nonzero probability of accidental death that I think can be bounded by some number ?. In any case there is the heat death to end the stragglers.
> 
> Does this change with the introduction of backups from which the dead can be resurrected (perhaps having amnesia about the time between their last pre-death backup and their resurrection)? 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Jun 18 03:58:54 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2023 20:58:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <9F38BA94-6B72-4B35-B17B-625D9E087A05@gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
 <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
 <CE3D58BF-176E-4B9E-B7ED-AA5BE4ABA150@gmail.com>
 <CA+2A8mxXx9-6WEQXw4-45X=j_0zBe_y75ku4eRYA-Yst+dkGeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQSnA2WkG7jGwDrMv72wQOd_V0P_+xWQX-6b3Cs2BXMSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9F38BA94-6B72-4B35-B17B-625D9E087A05@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQWufDZbrGk1nVSvpvaMgGh0ULeZnqxqHnDhrNcdXe19g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 17, 2023 at 7:15?PM Gadersd via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> This will buy some time, but still doesn?t avoid the inevitable heat
> death. If the multiverse has sufficient variety then it may be that there
> exists a version of each of us where some being pulls us out of the
> ?simulation." Infinite other survival possibilities are also possible in a
> multiverse with sufficient variety. If all mathematical structures exist
> then these possibilities are inevitable, granting potential true
> immortality. The probabliity distribution of these possibilities remains
> unknown as we lack a theory of everything. Better not to put hope in
> speculation.
>

Is there not sufficiently little data on how universes work that the
assumption of an inevitable heat death is essentially speculation at this
time?  Speculation with some evidence, but much less thoroughly proven than
most things we take as absolutes.
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From ben at zaiboc.net  Sun Jun 18 06:37:29 2023
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2023 07:37:29 +0100
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.45.1687044336.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.45.1687044336.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <0ca4e4cf-c90d-da66-bd4c-443958374d8e@zaiboc.net>


On 18/06/2023 00:25, bill w wrote:
> Whose body and mind is it?? It is NOT the state's

Try telling the state that.

Is there even a single state in the world that doesn't arrogate to 
itself the right to determine what its citizens can do with their selves 
and their bodies, up to and including destroying them?

You may claim self-ownership, but the state you belong to has a prior, 
and more forceful (literally) claim. If your state is a theocracy, that 
goes double.

Ben

From gadersd at gmail.com  Sun Jun 18 14:00:47 2023
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2023 10:00:47 -0400
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQWufDZbrGk1nVSvpvaMgGh0ULeZnqxqHnDhrNcdXe19g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
 <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
 <CE3D58BF-176E-4B9E-B7ED-AA5BE4ABA150@gmail.com>
 <CA+2A8mxXx9-6WEQXw4-45X=j_0zBe_y75ku4eRYA-Yst+dkGeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQSnA2WkG7jGwDrMv72wQOd_V0P_+xWQX-6b3Cs2BXMSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9F38BA94-6B72-4B35-B17B-625D9E087A05@gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQWufDZbrGk1nVSvpvaMgGh0ULeZnqxqHnDhrNcdXe19g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D938299E-062F-4AA0-A9DC-F12A49D0203A@gmail.com>

> Is there not sufficiently little data on how universes work that the assumption of an inevitable heat death is essentially speculation at this time?  Speculation with some evidence, but much less thoroughly proven than most things we take as absolutes.

The universe is expanding and the expansion accelerates. There is a distance at which the expansion exceeds the speed of light at which point two objects will never come into contact again, barring some speculative wormhole wizardry. Most matter will then eventually be inaccessible to us and we will find ourselves isolated within islands of matter. Any finite system held within a particular volume of space will eventually become cyclic, at least in distribution. There is no real immortality in such a state since the distant future is the distant past. Any growth or experience is eventually reset and novelty is neutered.

The common viewpoint among physicists is that such a confined system converges to a uniform distribution of matter states such that any configuration is equally likely. This is a Boltzmann brain scenario. There is no structure to the experience of a Boltzmann brain as the probability of all experiences are equally likely. This is a state of maximum entropy with respect to experience. This is true death.

More likely, the density of space will decrease as matter and energy scatter. Then eventually there will be so few matter interactions that complex structures will be essentially extinct.

There is some degree of necessity to this. If space did not expand and the distribution of matter approached uniformity then Boltzmann brains would become more numerous than structured brains for almost all time. The frequency of our structured existence relative to Boltzmann brains would then diminish. The expansion of space and the eventual dearth of matter interactions ensures that our existence remains relatively relevant.

There is little hope in yonder years. We should be content with a few billion years, though some of us may live much longer.

> On Jun 17, 2023, at 11:58 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> On Sat, Jun 17, 2023 at 7:15?PM Gadersd via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>> wrote:
> This will buy some time, but still doesn?t avoid the inevitable heat death. If the multiverse has sufficient variety then it may be that there exists a version of each of us where some being pulls us out of the ?simulation." Infinite other survival possibilities are also possible in a multiverse with sufficient variety. If all mathematical structures exist then these possibilities are inevitable, granting potential true immortality. The probabliity distribution of these possibilities remains unknown as we lack a theory of everything. Better not to put hope in speculation.
> 
> Is there not sufficiently little data on how universes work that the assumption of an inevitable heat death is essentially speculation at this time?  Speculation with some evidence, but much less thoroughly proven than most things we take as absolutes.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Jun 18 14:03:06 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2023 09:03:06 -0500
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <00d601d9a174$d08d74f0$71a85ed0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
 <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
 <aec920132913c548bc8c845f6fbc36b6.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAK7-ont8p-KjYBkqkmt4Na+YwWAw1SZnfLPaYWyC6WD4WQZa2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d601d9a174$d08d74f0$71a85ed0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYGdCnQM9X4pwOK+Cx_55dosT8=3vYPJbCLyjd+qzBANw@mail.gmail.com>

  He very logically asked ?Can we just let nature take its course?? I don?t
see why not.  It damn well aughta be his call.  spike  ;


You mean it isn't?  He cannot refuse?  Has he been declared mentally
incompetent?  bill w

On Sat, Jun 17, 2023 at 6:40?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> A relative has been told he needs a new heart valve.  Age 84.
>
>
>
> Yesterday he was being briefed on the operation he is facing.  He very
> logically asked ?Can we just let nature take its course??
>
>
>
> I don?t see why not.  It damn well aughta be his call.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *Brent Allsop via extropy-chat
> *Sent:* Saturday, 17 June, 2023 2:23 PM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Cc:* Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] (no subject)
>
>
>
>
>
> Evidently Charlie Munger agrees.
>
>
>
>
> https://finance.yahoo.com/news/charlie-munger-said-healthcare-providers-190014911.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9uZXdzLmdvb2dsZS5jb20v&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAK1f_xiTU-G6qjQYy33XHHAT12ImhqPdHb8TYMvp6LMVDMvGW7dPIB-l3p0nQNdQErEGnVOSFaBsysifBpq1SHsi1w6x5tSpFJtsEYoU6RFdlASn9IRxBwKRinuYnGqeOmeEutPtsRzdh-M7xC713AicJWXph3SG7hqLb9y04fkB
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Jun 18 14:19:35 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2023 09:19:35 -0500
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <0ca4e4cf-c90d-da66-bd4c-443958374d8e@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.45.1687044336.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <0ca4e4cf-c90d-da66-bd4c-443958374d8e@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEa10-YHDB16GQZx-Ot9+BpwuHRjXWb6f5LxWe0sSoFf4A@mail.gmail.com>

How are they going to punish a person who has successfully committed
suicide?  Are there any laws about inheritance etc. that relate to this?
We libertarians, and I am not necessarily including everyone on this list
because I don't know what they think, are still quite a ways from all the
freedoms we should have.  Is it true that politicians tend to take away
freedoms rather than let us have more?

Many who believe in the nanny state think they are better at running our
lives than we are.   Closet authoritarians, I say.  bill w

On Sun, Jun 18, 2023 at 1:39?AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> On 18/06/2023 00:25, bill w wrote:
> > Whose body and mind is it?  It is NOT the state's
>
> Try telling the state that.
>
> Is there even a single state in the world that doesn't arrogate to
> itself the right to determine what its citizens can do with their selves
> and their bodies, up to and including destroying them?
>
> You may claim self-ownership, but the state you belong to has a prior,
> and more forceful (literally) claim. If your state is a theocracy, that
> goes double.
>
> Ben
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Jun 18 14:27:08 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2023 09:27:08 -0500
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <D938299E-062F-4AA0-A9DC-F12A49D0203A@gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
 <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
 <CE3D58BF-176E-4B9E-B7ED-AA5BE4ABA150@gmail.com>
 <CA+2A8mxXx9-6WEQXw4-45X=j_0zBe_y75ku4eRYA-Yst+dkGeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQSnA2WkG7jGwDrMv72wQOd_V0P_+xWQX-6b3Cs2BXMSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9F38BA94-6B72-4B35-B17B-625D9E087A05@gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQWufDZbrGk1nVSvpvaMgGh0ULeZnqxqHnDhrNcdXe19g@mail.gmail.com>
 <D938299E-062F-4AA0-A9DC-F12A49D0203A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZSEFF3TuUtENgHYfQsw6szun91cdGx3P14K3eS4m-Jug@mail.gmail.com>

Is it possible to explain to a physics deficient person how celestial
bodies can accelerate?  What gives them motion other than the Big Bang?
 bill w

On Sun, Jun 18, 2023 at 9:03?AM Gadersd via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Is there not sufficiently little data on how universes work that the
> assumption of an inevitable heat death is essentially speculation at this
> time?  Speculation with some evidence, but much less thoroughly proven than
> most things we take as absolutes.
>
>
> The universe is expanding and the expansion accelerates. There is a
> distance at which the expansion exceeds the speed of light at which point
> two objects will never come into contact again, barring some speculative
> wormhole wizardry. Most matter will then eventually be inaccessible to us
> and we will find ourselves isolated within islands of matter. Any finite
> system held within a particular volume of space will eventually become
> cyclic, at least in distribution. There is no real immortality in such a
> state since the distant future is the distant past. Any growth or
> experience is eventually reset and novelty is neutered.
>
> The common viewpoint among physicists is that such a confined system
> converges to a uniform distribution of matter states such that any
> configuration is equally likely. This is a Boltzmann brain scenario. There
> is no structure to the experience of a Boltzmann brain as the probability
> of all experiences are equally likely. This is a state of maximum entropy
> with respect to experience. This is true death.
>
> More likely, the density of space will decrease as matter and energy
> scatter. Then eventually there will be so few matter interactions that
> complex structures will be essentially extinct.
>
> There is some degree of necessity to this. If space did not expand and the
> distribution of matter approached uniformity then Boltzmann brains would
> become more numerous than structured brains for almost all time. The
> frequency of our structured existence relative to Boltzmann brains would
> then diminish. The expansion of space and the eventual dearth of matter
> interactions ensures that our existence remains relatively relevant.
>
> There is little hope in yonder years. We should be content with a few
> billion years, though some of us may live much longer.
>
> On Jun 17, 2023, at 11:58 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> On Sat, Jun 17, 2023 at 7:15?PM Gadersd via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> This will buy some time, but still doesn?t avoid the inevitable heat
>> death. If the multiverse has sufficient variety then it may be that there
>> exists a version of each of us where some being pulls us out of the
>> ?simulation." Infinite other survival possibilities are also possible in a
>> multiverse with sufficient variety. If all mathematical structures exist
>> then these possibilities are inevitable, granting potential true
>> immortality. The probabliity distribution of these possibilities remains
>> unknown as we lack a theory of everything. Better not to put hope in
>> speculation.
>>
>
> Is there not sufficiently little data on how universes work that the
> assumption of an inevitable heat death is essentially speculation at this
> time?  Speculation with some evidence, but much less thoroughly proven than
> most things we take as absolutes.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From avant at sollegro.com  Sun Jun 18 15:11:22 2023
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2023 08:11:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] JWST breaks cosmology
Message-ID: <20230618081122.Horde.5gKF2qYI_B4YQue_NDP44u2@sollegro.com>


https://www.skyatnightmagazine.com/space-science/webb-telescope-universe-breaker-galaxies/

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-05786-2?utm_medium=affiliate&utm_source=commission_junction&utm_campaign=CONR_PF018_ECOM_GL_PHSS_ALWYS_DEEPLINK&utm_content=textlink&utm_term=PID100090913&CJEVENT=971571d50de611ee82af8b960a1cb825

Back in February, the James Web Space Telescope looked back to the  
supposed dawn of time just 600 million years after the big bang and  
found six galaxies that were far larger, better developed, and more  
modern-looking than the current big bang-Lambda-CDM model of cosmology  
predicts. That means that full-fledged galaxies complete with star  
systems and supermassive black holes formed in the early universe in  
less time than it takes the Milky Way to rotate three times. While  
some of these galaxies might turn out to be quasars, that would still  
mean that supermassive black holes were present in the earliest epochs  
of the universe, and that would turn what we know of black hole  
formation on its head.

Cosmology was already on the ropes with the previously discovered  
Hubble tension (discrepancy) in the estimates of the Hubble parameter  
(constant) between measurements made of distant galaxies by the Hubble  
telescope and measurements of the cosmic microwave background (CMB)  
made by the Planck satellite. So this most recent revelation is akin  
to a knockout punch to cosmology and does break our theories about the  
universe.

Stuart LaForge



From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Jun 18 15:16:40 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2023 08:16:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYGdCnQM9X4pwOK+Cx_55dosT8=3vYPJbCLyjd+qzBANw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
 <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
 <aec920132913c548bc8c845f6fbc36b6.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAK7-ont8p-KjYBkqkmt4Na+YwWAw1SZnfLPaYWyC6WD4WQZa2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d601d9a174$d08d74f0$71a85ed0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYGdCnQM9X4pwOK+Cx_55dosT8=3vYPJbCLyjd+qzBANw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004201d9a1f7$e33c8a90$a9b59fb0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] (no subject)

 

>>?  He very logically asked ?Can we just let nature take its course?? I don?t see why not.  It damn well aughta be his call.  spike  ;

 

>?You mean it isn't?  He cannot refuse?  Has he been declared mentally incompetent?  bill w

 

Billw, his children have been pressuring him to go forward with it.  I chose to keep my mouth shut, being as it isn?t my genetic family.

spike

 

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From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Sun Jun 18 15:39:01 2023
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2023 11:39:01 -0400
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <004201d9a1f7$e33c8a90$a9b59fb0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
 <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
 <aec920132913c548bc8c845f6fbc36b6.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAK7-ont8p-KjYBkqkmt4Na+YwWAw1SZnfLPaYWyC6WD4WQZa2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d601d9a174$d08d74f0$71a85ed0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYGdCnQM9X4pwOK+Cx_55dosT8=3vYPJbCLyjd+qzBANw@mail.gmail.com>
 <004201d9a1f7$e33c8a90$a9b59fb0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <134b3fbe72529d4d120f1246904c075c.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>


On Sun, June 18, 2023 11:16, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:

>>>?  He very logically asked ?Can we just let nature take its course?? I
>>> don?t see why not.  It damn well aughta be his call.  spike  ;
>
>
>
>>?You mean it isn't?  He cannot refuse?  Has he been declared mentally
>> incompetent?  bill w
>
>
>
> Billw, his children have been pressuring him to go forward with it.  I
> chose to keep my mouth shut, being as it isn?t my genetic family.
>
> spike


This is one of the nightmares old (or terminally ill) people face.  One
can only hope that the family really is on the same page as the old/ill
person.  I have certainly tried with my kids to discuss End Times and what
I want.  Papers have been signed, notarized, and are on file with doctors
and hospitals.

Eventually we may see how it works out: will they follow through or be
seduced by greedy medicals or misplaced "love".  Reading things like
spike's scenario, one is left hoping for sudden death, so they don't get a
chance to have second thoughts and prolong things until money runs out.

Regards,
MB




From gadersd at gmail.com  Sun Jun 18 15:44:28 2023
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2023 11:44:28 -0400
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZSEFF3TuUtENgHYfQsw6szun91cdGx3P14K3eS4m-Jug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
 <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
 <CE3D58BF-176E-4B9E-B7ED-AA5BE4ABA150@gmail.com>
 <CA+2A8mxXx9-6WEQXw4-45X=j_0zBe_y75ku4eRYA-Yst+dkGeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQSnA2WkG7jGwDrMv72wQOd_V0P_+xWQX-6b3Cs2BXMSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9F38BA94-6B72-4B35-B17B-625D9E087A05@gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQWufDZbrGk1nVSvpvaMgGh0ULeZnqxqHnDhrNcdXe19g@mail.gmail.com>
 <D938299E-062F-4AA0-A9DC-F12A49D0203A@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZSEFF3TuUtENgHYfQsw6szun91cdGx3P14K3eS4m-Jug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <187AE6E9-FE78-44CA-A5CF-E3CDF68972FD@gmail.com>

> Is it possible to explain to a physics deficient person how celestial bodies can accelerate?  What gives them motion other than the Big Bang?

Space itself is expanding between celestial bodies. The more space between bodies, the greater the rate of expansion. Think of it like exponential growth in biology. Space replicates and the more space there is the more replication occurs.

> On Jun 18, 2023, at 10:27 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> Is it possible to explain to a physics deficient person how celestial bodies can accelerate?  What gives them motion other than the Big Bang?   bill w
> 
> On Sun, Jun 18, 2023 at 9:03?AM Gadersd via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>> wrote:
>> Is there not sufficiently little data on how universes work that the assumption of an inevitable heat death is essentially speculation at this time?  Speculation with some evidence, but much less thoroughly proven than most things we take as absolutes.
> 
> The universe is expanding and the expansion accelerates. There is a distance at which the expansion exceeds the speed of light at which point two objects will never come into contact again, barring some speculative wormhole wizardry. Most matter will then eventually be inaccessible to us and we will find ourselves isolated within islands of matter. Any finite system held within a particular volume of space will eventually become cyclic, at least in distribution. There is no real immortality in such a state since the distant future is the distant past. Any growth or experience is eventually reset and novelty is neutered.
> 
> The common viewpoint among physicists is that such a confined system converges to a uniform distribution of matter states such that any configuration is equally likely. This is a Boltzmann brain scenario. There is no structure to the experience of a Boltzmann brain as the probability of all experiences are equally likely. This is a state of maximum entropy with respect to experience. This is true death.
> 
> More likely, the density of space will decrease as matter and energy scatter. Then eventually there will be so few matter interactions that complex structures will be essentially extinct.
> 
> There is some degree of necessity to this. If space did not expand and the distribution of matter approached uniformity then Boltzmann brains would become more numerous than structured brains for almost all time. The frequency of our structured existence relative to Boltzmann brains would then diminish. The expansion of space and the eventual dearth of matter interactions ensures that our existence remains relatively relevant.
> 
> There is little hope in yonder years. We should be content with a few billion years, though some of us may live much longer.
> 
>> On Jun 17, 2023, at 11:58 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>> wrote:
>> 
>> On Sat, Jun 17, 2023 at 7:15?PM Gadersd via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>> wrote:
>> This will buy some time, but still doesn?t avoid the inevitable heat death. If the multiverse has sufficient variety then it may be that there exists a version of each of us where some being pulls us out of the ?simulation." Infinite other survival possibilities are also possible in a multiverse with sufficient variety. If all mathematical structures exist then these possibilities are inevitable, granting potential true immortality. The probabliity distribution of these possibilities remains unknown as we lack a theory of everything. Better not to put hope in speculation.
>> 
>> Is there not sufficiently little data on how universes work that the assumption of an inevitable heat death is essentially speculation at this time?  Speculation with some evidence, but much less thoroughly proven than most things we take as absolutes.
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat <http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat <http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Jun 18 16:06:15 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2023 09:06:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <134b3fbe72529d4d120f1246904c075c.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
 <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
 <aec920132913c548bc8c845f6fbc36b6.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAK7-ont8p-KjYBkqkmt4Na+YwWAw1SZnfLPaYWyC6WD4WQZa2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d601d9a174$d08d74f0$71a85ed0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYGdCnQM9X4pwOK+Cx_55dosT8=3vYPJbCLyjd+qzBANw@mail.gmail.com>
 <004201d9a1f7$e33c8a90$a9b59fb0$@rainier66.com>
 <134b3fbe72529d4d120f1246904c075c.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <006801d9a1fe$cf7162e0$6e5428a0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of MB via extropy-chat
...

This is one of the nightmares old (or terminally ill) people face.  One can only hope that the family really is on the same page as the old/ill person...Regards,
MB



_______________________________________________


Ja.  It is one of those cases where the patient is ambivalent, but recognizes that all three of his offspring are smarter and better educated than he is.  So... he hands them the decision, and they are all about moving forward with what I would call a questionable surgery.

I jump at every opportunity to say nothing.  I noticed the other in laws are doing likewise.

spike



From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Jun 18 16:12:35 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2023 09:12:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <187AE6E9-FE78-44CA-A5CF-E3CDF68972FD@gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
 <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
 <CE3D58BF-176E-4B9E-B7ED-AA5BE4ABA150@gmail.com>
 <CA+2A8mxXx9-6WEQXw4-45X=j_0zBe_y75ku4eRYA-Yst+dkGeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQSnA2WkG7jGwDrMv72wQOd_V0P_+xWQX-6b3Cs2BXMSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9F38BA94-6B72-4B35-B17B-625D9E087A05@gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQWufDZbrGk1nVSvpvaMgGh0ULeZnqxqHnDhrNcdXe19g@mail.gmail.com>
 <D938299E-062F-4AA0-A9DC-F12A49D0203A@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZSEFF3TuUtENgHYfQsw6szun91cdGx3P14K3eS4m-Jug@mail.gmail.com>
 <187AE6E9-FE78-44CA-A5CF-E3CDF68972FD@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006901d9a1ff$b21d3010$16579030$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On 
Subject: Re: [ExI] (no subject)

 

>>?Is it possible to explain to a physics deficient person how celestial bodies can accelerate?  What gives them motion other than the Big Bang?  Billw

 

>?Space itself is expanding between celestial bodies. The more space between bodies, the greater the rate of expansion. Think of it like exponential growth in biology. Space replicates and the more space there is the more replication occurs?

 

 

Billw, if it makes no sense to you, no worries me lad.  It really is a mind-blower.  In all our experience, in our calculations, we work in three dimensions.  To understand cosmic inflation, one needs to work in four dimensions, and do it enough that one starts to think in four dimensions.  Then the notion of 3-dimensional space expanding with the galaxies embedded in expanding 3-space all makes sense.  It becomes the only way to explain what our telescopes tell us.

 

Now however? with the new Webb results coming back? our standard model is once again having some difficulties.  The LIGO results are still blowing our minds, with all those mergers this late in the day.  I don?t get that one at all.  How can there still be so many mergers?  Those shoulda been once-a-century events rather than several a year.  I am as baffled by that as 3-space people are with cosmic inflation.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

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From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Jun 18 16:17:22 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2023 17:17:22 +0100
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <187AE6E9-FE78-44CA-A5CF-E3CDF68972FD@gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
 <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
 <CE3D58BF-176E-4B9E-B7ED-AA5BE4ABA150@gmail.com>
 <CA+2A8mxXx9-6WEQXw4-45X=j_0zBe_y75ku4eRYA-Yst+dkGeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQSnA2WkG7jGwDrMv72wQOd_V0P_+xWQX-6b3Cs2BXMSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9F38BA94-6B72-4B35-B17B-625D9E087A05@gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQWufDZbrGk1nVSvpvaMgGh0ULeZnqxqHnDhrNcdXe19g@mail.gmail.com>
 <D938299E-062F-4AA0-A9DC-F12A49D0203A@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZSEFF3TuUtENgHYfQsw6szun91cdGx3P14K3eS4m-Jug@mail.gmail.com>
 <187AE6E9-FE78-44CA-A5CF-E3CDF68972FD@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjTRVx4nkfTEoxs1qGXt_My0+RP_otFEvt3MxGFK5dBmg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 18 Jun 2023 at 16:48, Gadersd via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Space itself is expanding between celestial bodies. The more space between bodies, the greater the rate of expansion. Think of it like exponential growth in biology. Space replicates and the more space there is the more replication occurs.
> _______________________________________________


Strictly speaking, Space is expanding between
 *gravitationally unbound* celestial bodies.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expansion_of_the_universe>


BillK

From gadersd at gmail.com  Sun Jun 18 16:41:17 2023
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2023 12:41:17 -0400
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjTRVx4nkfTEoxs1qGXt_My0+RP_otFEvt3MxGFK5dBmg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
 <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
 <CE3D58BF-176E-4B9E-B7ED-AA5BE4ABA150@gmail.com>
 <CA+2A8mxXx9-6WEQXw4-45X=j_0zBe_y75ku4eRYA-Yst+dkGeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQSnA2WkG7jGwDrMv72wQOd_V0P_+xWQX-6b3Cs2BXMSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9F38BA94-6B72-4B35-B17B-625D9E087A05@gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQWufDZbrGk1nVSvpvaMgGh0ULeZnqxqHnDhrNcdXe19g@mail.gmail.com>
 <D938299E-062F-4AA0-A9DC-F12A49D0203A@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZSEFF3TuUtENgHYfQsw6szun91cdGx3P14K3eS4m-Jug@mail.gmail.com>
 <187AE6E9-FE78-44CA-A5CF-E3CDF68972FD@gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjTRVx4nkfTEoxs1qGXt_My0+RP_otFEvt3MxGFK5dBmg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2F5233F0-2C0C-4EBE-BAFE-8FA8FFD6C5EE@gmail.com>

> Strictly speaking, Space is expanding between
> *gravitationally unbound* celestial bodies.
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expansion_of_the_universe>

Yes, gravity is the contraction of space.

> On Jun 18, 2023, at 12:17 PM, BillK via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 18 Jun 2023 at 16:48, Gadersd via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Space itself is expanding between celestial bodies. The more space between bodies, the greater the rate of expansion. Think of it like exponential growth in biology. Space replicates and the more space there is the more replication occurs.
>> _______________________________________________
> 
> 
> Strictly speaking, Space is expanding between
> *gravitationally unbound* celestial bodies.
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expansion_of_the_universe>
> 
> 
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Jun 18 16:56:58 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2023 11:56:58 -0500
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <134b3fbe72529d4d120f1246904c075c.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
 <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
 <aec920132913c548bc8c845f6fbc36b6.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAK7-ont8p-KjYBkqkmt4Na+YwWAw1SZnfLPaYWyC6WD4WQZa2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d601d9a174$d08d74f0$71a85ed0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYGdCnQM9X4pwOK+Cx_55dosT8=3vYPJbCLyjd+qzBANw@mail.gmail.com>
 <004201d9a1f7$e33c8a90$a9b59fb0$@rainier66.com>
 <134b3fbe72529d4d120f1246904c075c.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbF-wKDsF+uO6uRMsNNYF7Luz2s-R5MN7o8fQ4C43hvbg@mail.gmail.com>

It seems in many cases that the decisions made about an elderly person in
poor health are made by family.  Or at least they are pushing a decision on
the old one.  This seems certain to me that they are thinking of themselves
and not the old one.  I think they assume that no one really wants to die
and not be subjected to more medical interventions that would not prolong
life more than a few months at most.  As we all know, a huge part of the
medical expenses in a person's life occur in the last couple of years.

My wife's mother faced a situation where she was too weak to withstand
surgery and would die if she didn't get it.  They operated.  She died.  Who
urged whom to do what I don't know.   bill w

On Sun, Jun 18, 2023 at 10:41?AM MB via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> On Sun, June 18, 2023 11:16, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:
>
> >>>?  He very logically asked ?Can we just let nature take its course?? I
> >>> don?t see why not.  It damn well aughta be his call.  spike  ;
> >
> >
> >
> >>?You mean it isn't?  He cannot refuse?  Has he been declared mentally
> >> incompetent?  bill w
> >
> >
> >
> > Billw, his children have been pressuring him to go forward with it.  I
> > chose to keep my mouth shut, being as it isn?t my genetic family.
> >
> > spike
>
>
> This is one of the nightmares old (or terminally ill) people face.  One
> can only hope that the family really is on the same page as the old/ill
> person.  I have certainly tried with my kids to discuss End Times and what
> I want.  Papers have been signed, notarized, and are on file with doctors
> and hospitals.
>
> Eventually we may see how it works out: will they follow through or be
> seduced by greedy medicals or misplaced "love".  Reading things like
> spike's scenario, one is left hoping for sudden death, so they don't get a
> chance to have second thoughts and prolong things until money runs out.
>
> Regards,
> MB
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Jun 18 17:25:17 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2023 10:25:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbF-wKDsF+uO6uRMsNNYF7Luz2s-R5MN7o8fQ4C43hvbg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
 <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
 <aec920132913c548bc8c845f6fbc36b6.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAK7-ont8p-KjYBkqkmt4Na+YwWAw1SZnfLPaYWyC6WD4WQZa2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d601d9a174$d08d74f0$71a85ed0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYGdCnQM9X4pwOK+Cx_55dosT8=3vYPJbCLyjd+qzBANw@mail.gmail.com>
 <004201d9a1f7$e33c8a90$a9b59fb0$@rainier66.com>
 <134b3fbe72529d4d120f1246904c075c.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAO+xQEbF-wKDsF+uO6uRMsNNYF7Luz2s-R5MN7o8fQ4C43hvbg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008501d9a209$da404230$8ec0c690$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
?

 

>?My wife's mother faced a situation where she was too weak to withstand surgery and would die if she didn't get it.  They operated.  She died.  Who urged whom to do what I don't know.   billw 

 

 

 

 

 

Ja, many complicating factors at work in this case.  His insurance covers nearly everything so the cost factor is mostly out of the picture.  Second: his mother-in-law went thru the same procedure (heart valve replacement) at age 83 and lived 9 more years after that.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

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From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Jun 18 18:33:20 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2023 11:33:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <2F5233F0-2C0C-4EBE-BAFE-8FA8FFD6C5EE@gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
 <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
 <CE3D58BF-176E-4B9E-B7ED-AA5BE4ABA150@gmail.com>
 <CA+2A8mxXx9-6WEQXw4-45X=j_0zBe_y75ku4eRYA-Yst+dkGeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQSnA2WkG7jGwDrMv72wQOd_V0P_+xWQX-6b3Cs2BXMSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9F38BA94-6B72-4B35-B17B-625D9E087A05@gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQWufDZbrGk1nVSvpvaMgGh0ULeZnqxqHnDhrNcdXe19g@mail.gmail.com>
 <D938299E-062F-4AA0-A9DC-F12A49D0203A@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZSEFF3TuUtENgHYfQsw6szun91cdGx3P14K3eS4m-Jug@mail.gmail.com>
 <187AE6E9-FE78-44CA-A5CF-E3CDF68972FD@gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjTRVx4nkfTEoxs1qGXt_My0+RP_otFEvt3MxGFK5dBmg@mail.gmail.com>
 <2F5233F0-2C0C-4EBE-BAFE-8FA8FFD6C5EE@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNS17EQCRByYaL6XujtyGta-B7vgLpXzyb80x6EzfwRphA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jun 18, 2023 at 9:42?AM Gadersd via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> > Strictly speaking, Space is expanding between
> > *gravitationally unbound* celestial bodies.
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expansion_of_the_universe>
>
> Yes, gravity is the contraction of space.
>

Might there be ways to create more of it, enough to actively counter the
expansion of space?  Could distant galaxies be pulled back so they never
leave our lightcone?
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From gadersd at gmail.com  Sun Jun 18 19:11:25 2023
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2023 15:11:25 -0400
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNS17EQCRByYaL6XujtyGta-B7vgLpXzyb80x6EzfwRphA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
 <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
 <CE3D58BF-176E-4B9E-B7ED-AA5BE4ABA150@gmail.com>
 <CA+2A8mxXx9-6WEQXw4-45X=j_0zBe_y75ku4eRYA-Yst+dkGeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQSnA2WkG7jGwDrMv72wQOd_V0P_+xWQX-6b3Cs2BXMSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9F38BA94-6B72-4B35-B17B-625D9E087A05@gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQWufDZbrGk1nVSvpvaMgGh0ULeZnqxqHnDhrNcdXe19g@mail.gmail.com>
 <D938299E-062F-4AA0-A9DC-F12A49D0203A@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZSEFF3TuUtENgHYfQsw6szun91cdGx3P14K3eS4m-Jug@mail.gmail.com>
 <187AE6E9-FE78-44CA-A5CF-E3CDF68972FD@gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjTRVx4nkfTEoxs1qGXt_My0+RP_otFEvt3MxGFK5dBmg@mail.gmail.com>
 <2F5233F0-2C0C-4EBE-BAFE-8FA8FFD6C5EE@gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNS17EQCRByYaL6XujtyGta-B7vgLpXzyb80x6EzfwRphA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3A0D7EAA-9B52-464F-BF81-D1B18C3011E5@gmail.com>

> Might there be ways to create more of it, enough to actively counter the expansion of space?  Could distant galaxies be pulled back so they never leave our lightcone?

Even if a large amount of mass were kept clustered, entropy still takes its toll. Do you imagine that humanity has a chance of defeating entropy? An infinite source of energy would do the trick but I haven?t seen any lying around.

> On Jun 18, 2023, at 2:33 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> On Sun, Jun 18, 2023 at 9:42?AM Gadersd via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>> wrote:
> > Strictly speaking, Space is expanding between
> > *gravitationally unbound* celestial bodies.
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expansion_of_the_universe <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expansion_of_the_universe>>
> 
> Yes, gravity is the contraction of space.
> 
> Might there be ways to create more of it, enough to actively counter the expansion of space?  Could distant galaxies be pulled back so they never leave our lightcone?
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Jun 18 20:34:35 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2023 21:34:35 +0100
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNS17EQCRByYaL6XujtyGta-B7vgLpXzyb80x6EzfwRphA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
 <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
 <CE3D58BF-176E-4B9E-B7ED-AA5BE4ABA150@gmail.com>
 <CA+2A8mxXx9-6WEQXw4-45X=j_0zBe_y75ku4eRYA-Yst+dkGeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQSnA2WkG7jGwDrMv72wQOd_V0P_+xWQX-6b3Cs2BXMSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9F38BA94-6B72-4B35-B17B-625D9E087A05@gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQWufDZbrGk1nVSvpvaMgGh0ULeZnqxqHnDhrNcdXe19g@mail.gmail.com>
 <D938299E-062F-4AA0-A9DC-F12A49D0203A@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZSEFF3TuUtENgHYfQsw6szun91cdGx3P14K3eS4m-Jug@mail.gmail.com>
 <187AE6E9-FE78-44CA-A5CF-E3CDF68972FD@gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjTRVx4nkfTEoxs1qGXt_My0+RP_otFEvt3MxGFK5dBmg@mail.gmail.com>
 <2F5233F0-2C0C-4EBE-BAFE-8FA8FFD6C5EE@gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNS17EQCRByYaL6XujtyGta-B7vgLpXzyb80x6EzfwRphA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjFbKoUkX9fwLW06VO9yvXfs0XWtvZZV-u1y1pa4M-j_Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 18 Jun 2023 at 19:36, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> On Sun, Jun 18, 2023 at 9:42?AM Gadersd via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> > Strictly speaking, Space is expanding between
>> > *gravitationally unbound* celestial bodies.
>> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expansion_of_the_universe>
>>
>> Yes, gravity is the contraction of space.
>
>
> Might there be ways to create more of it, enough to actively counter the expansion of space?  Could distant galaxies be pulled back so they never leave our lightcone?
> _______________________________________________


Probably not. The expansion of space is the remains of the initial
inflation that created the universe.
The Big Crunch theory suggested that the total gravity of the universe
contents might slow, then stop, then reverse the expansion of the
universe and lead to the universe collapsing inward back to a
singularity.
But the discovery that the expansion is accelerating means that
gravity is not sufficient to do this.
So you would have to find a force greater than the total mass of the universe.
That would be a neat trick. Probably worth a Nobel Prize.  :)


BillK


From efc at swisscows.email  Mon Jun 19 14:40:59 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2023 16:40:59 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-ont69wub+uwtFqSwJQddmrOkkfzYXFTMnKkHFDp9tK_nKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
 <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
 <CAK7-ont69wub+uwtFqSwJQddmrOkkfzYXFTMnKkHFDp9tK_nKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7c25bb64-f624-42e8-b4ce-4e283a8ac6c7@swisscows.email>

Hello Brent,

On Sat, 17 Jun 2023, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 12:25?PM efc--- via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>       On Thu, 15 Jun 2023, Gadersd via extropy-chat wrote:
>       >> ask about why we want to live a long time.
>       >
>       > That seems an odd thing to have to explain. Life is good, no?
>
>       I always find these immortality discussions very strange. For me, it is
>       not about immortality per se, but about choice. Being able to decide
>       yourself when you had enough.
> 
> Being about choice is a good point.? But if that is the only point, are you saying that morality is relative, or that there is no
> morality, right or wrong, good or bad... choice?

Good question! On the surface, I am all about freedom and free informed
consent and very libertarian.

On a deeper level, which I find more interesting, I think the simplest
explanation that ultimately, there are no morals. They are created when
several self-conscious, human beings meet reality.

I do not have a hard position on this, so I welcome a vigorous debate
here to inspire me! =)

> Seems to me choosing?to end things is necessarily?a bad/wrong/mistaken... choice.

Why? It is your life, and given the circumstances, why should you not be
allowed to choose to end it if you so want and are of a sound and
healthy mind?

> Seems to me, survival is always, necessarily, better than not surviving.? That is why evolution must progress in all sufficiently
> complex worlds?

I can imagine many situations where I would probably choose to end my
life. So I do not think, for me, that survival trumps everything,
everytime.

Best regards, 
Daniel

From efc at swisscows.email  Mon Jun 19 14:44:09 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2023 16:44:09 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <aec920132913c548bc8c845f6fbc36b6.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
 <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
 <aec920132913c548bc8c845f6fbc36b6.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <f884c7ce-c944-f384-a8e9-a9ebd15db920@swisscows.email>


On Sat, 17 Jun 2023, MB via extropy-chat wrote:

>> I always find these immortality discussions very strange. For me, it is
>> not about immortality per se, but about choice. Being able to decide
>> yourself when you had enough.
>>
>
> Choice please.  Don't you ever wonder if being kept alive by medical
> heroic measures and care when you're obviously near/at the end is a $$$
> game for the system?  What the patient wants seems to not matter.  What

That is very sad. I've only experienced this situation once, and at
least in that situation the medical staff were very humane, caring and
compassionate, and I think the situation was handled in an excellent
way.

> the family wants also gets overruled.

Horrible!

> Especially nowadays when pain killers are in the Fed spotlight, and
> doctors who care are afraid?

Would you say that this is common in the US?

Best regards, 
Daniel


>
> Regards,
> MB
> ... who has watched old and beloved family members ....  :(
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


From efc at swisscows.email  Mon Jun 19 14:49:15 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2023 16:49:15 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaPNgV7uvr1cDSr7Yr9OJAr5ejUa2tHDROHCSZnohJ9Ew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
 <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
 <CE3D58BF-176E-4B9E-B7ED-AA5BE4ABA150@gmail.com>
 <CA+2A8mxXx9-6WEQXw4-45X=j_0zBe_y75ku4eRYA-Yst+dkGeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaPNgV7uvr1cDSr7Yr9OJAr5ejUa2tHDROHCSZnohJ9Ew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <21989fea-dc92-6f85-7b18-704d75296dfb@swisscows.email>


On Sat, 17 Jun 2023, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:

> Christianity as a death cult?? I think of it more as a fear cult.? Fear of not fitting in in society. Fear of Hell (though I know
> many Christians don't believe in it).? Is a Christian any worse than a person who believes in ghosts?? There are more believers there
> than in Christianity.? How many people have a sound mind?? bill w

I like christianity, but the problem for me is labeling all christians
with one term.

There are horrible versions and tolerable versions and
very nice versions of christianity. Each according to various
individuals interpretation.

I'm not a christian, but if I were, I think I'd probably gravitate
towards something unitarian, or quaker:ish with a healthy dose of
mysticism thrown in.

Best regards, 
Daniel

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Jun 19 15:48:59 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2023 10:48:59 -0500
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <7c25bb64-f624-42e8-b4ce-4e283a8ac6c7@swisscows.email>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
 <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
 <CAK7-ont69wub+uwtFqSwJQddmrOkkfzYXFTMnKkHFDp9tK_nKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7c25bb64-f624-42e8-b4ce-4e283a8ac6c7@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYbsFPbFHpEyyEK=K_Q1oudajC_QLJaoR3JHfsL7Q6ugA@mail.gmail.com>

 I think the simplest explanation is that ultimately, there are no morals.
They are created when several self-conscious, human beings meet reality.

This is about as vague as you can get.  Reality is that we cannot live
alone effectively.  So when someone in a group harms another, the whole
group suffers - loss of warrior; loss of berry picker; loss of spear
chunker, and so on. What hurts an individual hurts the group.  Matthew
Ridley has a whole book on the subject of how morality forms.    All of his
books are excellent, like The Rational Optimist.    bill w

On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 9:43?AM efc--- via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Hello Brent,
>
> On Sat, 17 Jun 2023, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 12:25?PM efc--- via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >       On Thu, 15 Jun 2023, Gadersd via extropy-chat wrote:
> >       >> ask about why we want to live a long time.
> >       >
> >       > That seems an odd thing to have to explain. Life is good, no?
> >
> >       I always find these immortality discussions very strange. For me,
> it is
> >       not about immortality per se, but about choice. Being able to
> decide
> >       yourself when you had enough.
> >
> > Being about choice is a good point.  But if that is the only point, are
> you saying that morality is relative, or that there is no
> > morality, right or wrong, good or bad... choice?
>
> Good question! On the surface, I am all about freedom and free informed
> consent and very libertarian.
>
> On a deeper level, which I find more interesting, I think the simplest
> explanation that ultimately, there are no morals. They are created when
> several self-conscious, human beings meet reality.
>
> I do not have a hard position on this, so I welcome a vigorous debate
> here to inspire me! =)
>
> > Seems to me choosing to end things is necessarily a
> bad/wrong/mistaken... choice.
>
> Why? It is your life, and given the circumstances, why should you not be
> allowed to choose to end it if you so want and are of a sound and
> healthy mind?
>
> > Seems to me, survival is always, necessarily, better than not
> surviving.  That is why evolution must progress in all sufficiently
> > complex worlds?
>
> I can imagine many situations where I would probably choose to end my
> life. So I do not think, for me, that survival trumps everything,
> everytime.
>
> Best regards,
> Daniel
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Jun 19 16:07:11 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2023 09:07:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYbsFPbFHpEyyEK=K_Q1oudajC_QLJaoR3JHfsL7Q6ugA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
 <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
 <CAK7-ont69wub+uwtFqSwJQddmrOkkfzYXFTMnKkHFDp9tK_nKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7c25bb64-f624-42e8-b4ce-4e283a8ac6c7@swisscows.email>
 <CAO+xQEYbsFPbFHpEyyEK=K_Q1oudajC_QLJaoR3JHfsL7Q6ugA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQReJK84bafaE-A_Ew-yS0k+19jG6mkDwgsiPgsFNwRHg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 8:51?AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>  I think the simplest explanation is that ultimately, there are no
> morals. They are created when several self-conscious, human beings meet
> reality.
>

It is said that, to get a conservative, mug a liberal.  This can be seen in
the Prisoner's Dilemma sense:  "If people are going to defect against me,
I/we should defect back preemptively!"

It can also be said that, to get a liberal, mug a conservative repeatedly.
"This repeat defecting is harming me and them.  Maybe we shouldn't always
defect, so they won't always defect against us?"
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Mon Jun 19 16:15:18 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2023 09:15:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYbsFPbFHpEyyEK=K_Q1oudajC_QLJaoR3JHfsL7Q6ugA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
 <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
 <CAK7-ont69wub+uwtFqSwJQddmrOkkfzYXFTMnKkHFDp9tK_nKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7c25bb64-f624-42e8-b4ce-4e283a8ac6c7@swisscows.email>
 <CAO+xQEYbsFPbFHpEyyEK=K_Q1oudajC_QLJaoR3JHfsL7Q6ugA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6EuEMAWx2i_qViv+_TMjJ4Nz-uGnruVGPorD4dnGxx_A@mail.gmail.com>

I know this is an unpopular view here, but humans evolved for wars.
Turns out that genes do better in a resource crisis by killing
neighbors and taking their resources than they do by starving in
place.  (The reason genes do better is that the winners absorb the
young women of the losers and through them the genes of the dead
warriors.)

The most divergent humans, the San people, may have missed this
selection.  But of the ones who left Africa, the cycle is for the
population to expand until there is a resource crisis, then a war,
then another expansion.  Rinse, repeat.

Keith

On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 8:50?AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>  I think the simplest explanation is that ultimately, there are no morals. They are created when several self-conscious, human beings meet reality.
>
> This is about as vague as you can get.  Reality is that we cannot live alone effectively.  So when someone in a group harms another, the whole group suffers - loss of warrior; loss of berry picker; loss of spear chunker, and so on. What hurts an individual hurts the group.  Matthew Ridley has a whole book on the subject of how morality forms.    All of his books are excellent, like The Rational Optimist.    bill w
>
> On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 9:43?AM efc--- via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hello Brent,
>>
>> On Sat, 17 Jun 2023, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat wrote:
>>
>> > On Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 12:25?PM efc--- via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >       On Thu, 15 Jun 2023, Gadersd via extropy-chat wrote:
>> >       >> ask about why we want to live a long time.
>> >       >
>> >       > That seems an odd thing to have to explain. Life is good, no?
>> >
>> >       I always find these immortality discussions very strange. For me, it is
>> >       not about immortality per se, but about choice. Being able to decide
>> >       yourself when you had enough.
>> >
>> > Being about choice is a good point.  But if that is the only point, are you saying that morality is relative, or that there is no
>> > morality, right or wrong, good or bad... choice?
>>
>> Good question! On the surface, I am all about freedom and free informed
>> consent and very libertarian.
>>
>> On a deeper level, which I find more interesting, I think the simplest
>> explanation that ultimately, there are no morals. They are created when
>> several self-conscious, human beings meet reality.
>>
>> I do not have a hard position on this, so I welcome a vigorous debate
>> here to inspire me! =)
>>
>> > Seems to me choosing to end things is necessarily a bad/wrong/mistaken... choice.
>>
>> Why? It is your life, and given the circumstances, why should you not be
>> allowed to choose to end it if you so want and are of a sound and
>> healthy mind?
>>
>> > Seems to me, survival is always, necessarily, better than not surviving.  That is why evolution must progress in all sufficiently
>> > complex worlds?
>>
>> I can imagine many situations where I would probably choose to end my
>> life. So I do not think, for me, that survival trumps everything,
>> everytime.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Daniel
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Mon Jun 19 18:37:20 2023
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2023 12:37:20 -0600
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <7c25bb64-f624-42e8-b4ce-4e283a8ac6c7@swisscows.email>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
 <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
 <CAK7-ont69wub+uwtFqSwJQddmrOkkfzYXFTMnKkHFDp9tK_nKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7c25bb64-f624-42e8-b4ce-4e283a8ac6c7@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onssVQeK=ft_=hJ4eYw=6aABoV-sb0FeO=f7==tdZFzLzw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 8:42?AM efc--- via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Hello Brent,
> On Sat, 17 Jun 2023, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat wrote:
> > Seems to me, survival is always, necessarily, better than not
> surviving.  That is why evolution must progress in all sufficiently
> > complex worlds?
>
> I can imagine many situations where I would probably choose to end my
> life. So I do not think, for me, that survival trumps everything,
> everytime.
>

Yes, there are cases where external influences may temporarily render
survival the lesser evil.

However, in absence of that, survival is necessarily better.  That is why
evolution must occur in all sufficiently complex systems, unless there is
some external God (devil?) to interfere.  It sounds like you disagree with
this?

I like to have faith that all greater evils, too, can be overcome,
eventually illuminating them (including overcoming some Devil?), so there
are no such greater evil justifications necessary.

Brent
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From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Mon Jun 19 18:47:49 2023
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2023 12:47:49 -0600
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB6EuEMAWx2i_qViv+_TMjJ4Nz-uGnruVGPorD4dnGxx_A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
 <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
 <CAK7-ont69wub+uwtFqSwJQddmrOkkfzYXFTMnKkHFDp9tK_nKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7c25bb64-f624-42e8-b4ce-4e283a8ac6c7@swisscows.email>
 <CAO+xQEYbsFPbFHpEyyEK=K_Q1oudajC_QLJaoR3JHfsL7Q6ugA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB6EuEMAWx2i_qViv+_TMjJ4Nz-uGnruVGPorD4dnGxx_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onvPTfTJ4kgL0D8knJOSq+oSfYUWAwSaE-F4gYhK1KfqcA@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, this kind of win-lose survival of the fittest game currently being
imposed by leaders of hierarchies is necessary to boot ourselves up from
nothing.  But now that we have finally become "intelligent" we can switch
from this win-lose hierarchical game to a bottom up win-win game driven by
intelligent design.  Instead of the goal being what the guy at the top
wants, all else being destroyed or consumed, the goal can become what
everyone at the bottom wants, win-win.

Our goal with Canonizer is to reverse this inbred tendency to fear monger
against everyone but the guy at the top with bleating and tweeting mobs,
and switch to an intelligent win - win focus on what everyone wants.
All we need is a good consensus building and tracking system which can
scale to become large enough to outcompete the established hierarchies, and
the ability to overcome this inbred desire to fight against any such switch.

Brent



On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 10:16?AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I know this is an unpopular view here, but humans evolved for wars.
> Turns out that genes do better in a resource crisis by killing
> neighbors and taking their resources than they do by starving in
> place.  (The reason genes do better is that the winners absorb the
> young women of the losers and through them the genes of the dead
> warriors.)
>
> The most divergent humans, the San people, may have missed this
> selection.  But of the ones who left Africa, the cycle is for the
> population to expand until there is a resource crisis, then a war,
> then another expansion.  Rinse, repeat.
>
> Keith
>
> On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 8:50?AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> >  I think the simplest explanation is that ultimately, there are no
> morals. They are created when several self-conscious, human beings meet
> reality.
> >
> > This is about as vague as you can get.  Reality is that we cannot live
> alone effectively.  So when someone in a group harms another, the whole
> group suffers - loss of warrior; loss of berry picker; loss of spear
> chunker, and so on. What hurts an individual hurts the group.  Matthew
> Ridley has a whole book on the subject of how morality forms.    All of his
> books are excellent, like The Rational Optimist.    bill w
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 9:43?AM efc--- via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hello Brent,
> >>
> >> On Sat, 17 Jun 2023, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 12:25?PM efc--- via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >> >       On Thu, 15 Jun 2023, Gadersd via extropy-chat wrote:
> >> >       >> ask about why we want to live a long time.
> >> >       >
> >> >       > That seems an odd thing to have to explain. Life is good, no?
> >> >
> >> >       I always find these immortality discussions very strange. For
> me, it is
> >> >       not about immortality per se, but about choice. Being able to
> decide
> >> >       yourself when you had enough.
> >> >
> >> > Being about choice is a good point.  But if that is the only point,
> are you saying that morality is relative, or that there is no
> >> > morality, right or wrong, good or bad... choice?
> >>
> >> Good question! On the surface, I am all about freedom and free informed
> >> consent and very libertarian.
> >>
> >> On a deeper level, which I find more interesting, I think the simplest
> >> explanation that ultimately, there are no morals. They are created when
> >> several self-conscious, human beings meet reality.
> >>
> >> I do not have a hard position on this, so I welcome a vigorous debate
> >> here to inspire me! =)
> >>
> >> > Seems to me choosing to end things is necessarily a
> bad/wrong/mistaken... choice.
> >>
> >> Why? It is your life, and given the circumstances, why should you not be
> >> allowed to choose to end it if you so want and are of a sound and
> >> healthy mind?
> >>
> >> > Seems to me, survival is always, necessarily, better than not
> surviving.  That is why evolution must progress in all sufficiently
> >> > complex worlds?
> >>
> >> I can imagine many situations where I would probably choose to end my
> >> life. So I do not think, for me, that survival trumps everything,
> >> everytime.
> >>
> >> Best regards,
> >> Daniel
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> extropy-chat mailing list
> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From efc at swisscows.email  Tue Jun 20 11:03:17 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2023 13:03:17 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYbsFPbFHpEyyEK=K_Q1oudajC_QLJaoR3JHfsL7Q6ugA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
 <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
 <CAK7-ont69wub+uwtFqSwJQddmrOkkfzYXFTMnKkHFDp9tK_nKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7c25bb64-f624-42e8-b4ce-4e283a8ac6c7@swisscows.email>
 <CAO+xQEYbsFPbFHpEyyEK=K_Q1oudajC_QLJaoR3JHfsL7Q6ugA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8efe7258-743d-e46d-6606-06ef2b20b146@swisscows.email>

Thank you very much for the book recommendation Bill!

I just wanted to add to the example below, that sometimes the removal of 
one individual can benefit the whole group as well. Let's save an insane 
serial killer.

That in turn can open the door to "what brought about the mentality", 
treatment vs punishment vs permanenet removal.

All interesting discussions.

Best regards,
Daniel


On Mon, 19 Jun 2023, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:

> ?I think the simplest?explanation is that ultimately, there are no morals. They are created when?several self-conscious, human beings
> meet reality.
> 
> This is about as vague as you can get.? Reality is that we cannot live alone effectively.? So when someone in a group harms another,
> the whole group suffers - loss of warrior; loss of berry picker; loss of spear chunker, and so on. What hurts an individual hurts the
> group.? Matthew Ridley has a whole book on the subject of how morality forms.? ? All of his books are excellent, like The Rational
> Optimist.? ? bill w
> 
> On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 9:43?AM efc--- via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>       Hello Brent,
>
>       On Sat, 17 Jun 2023, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat wrote:
>
>       > On Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 12:25?PM efc--- via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>       >? ? ? ?On Thu, 15 Jun 2023, Gadersd via extropy-chat wrote:
>       >? ? ? ?>> ask about why we want to live a long time.
>       >? ? ? ?>
>       >? ? ? ?> That seems an odd thing to have to explain. Life is good, no?
>       >
>       >? ? ? ?I always find these immortality discussions very strange. For me, it is
>       >? ? ? ?not about immortality per se, but about choice. Being able to decide
>       >? ? ? ?yourself when you had enough.
>       >
>       > Being about choice is a good point.? But if that is the only point, are you saying that morality is relative, or that
>       there is no
>       > morality, right or wrong, good or bad... choice?
>
>       Good question! On the surface, I am all about freedom and free informed
>       consent and very libertarian.
>
>       On a deeper level, which I find more interesting, I think the simplest
>       explanation that ultimately, there are no morals. They are created when
>       several self-conscious, human beings meet reality.
>
>       I do not have a hard position on this, so I welcome a vigorous debate
>       here to inspire me! =)
>
>       > Seems to me choosing?to end things is necessarily?a bad/wrong/mistaken... choice.
>
>       Why? It is your life, and given the circumstances, why should you not be
>       allowed to choose to end it if you so want and are of a sound and
>       healthy mind?
>
>       > Seems to me, survival is always, necessarily, better than not surviving.? That is why evolution must progress in all
>       sufficiently
>       > complex worlds?
>
>       I can imagine many situations where I would probably choose to end my
>       life. So I do not think, for me, that survival trumps everything,
>       everytime.
>
>       Best regards,
>       Daniel
>       _______________________________________________
>       extropy-chat mailing list
>       extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>       http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 
> 
>

From efc at swisscows.email  Tue Jun 20 11:04:31 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2023 13:04:31 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQReJK84bafaE-A_Ew-yS0k+19jG6mkDwgsiPgsFNwRHg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
 <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
 <CAK7-ont69wub+uwtFqSwJQddmrOkkfzYXFTMnKkHFDp9tK_nKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7c25bb64-f624-42e8-b4ce-4e283a8ac6c7@swisscows.email>
 <CAO+xQEYbsFPbFHpEyyEK=K_Q1oudajC_QLJaoR3JHfsL7Q6ugA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQReJK84bafaE-A_Ew-yS0k+19jG6mkDwgsiPgsFNwRHg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5a36f883-dbea-416a-e8b3-c25cf0a6ca57@swisscows.email>

Now what do you get when you mug a conservative?

Best regards,
Daniel


On Mon, 19 Jun 2023, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 8:51?AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>       ?I think the simplest?explanation is that ultimately, there are no morals. They are created when?several self-conscious,
>       human beings meet reality.
> 
> 
> It is said that, to get a conservative, mug a liberal.? This can be seen in the Prisoner's Dilemma?sense:? "If people are going to
> defect against me, I/we should defect back preemptively!"
> 
> It can also be said that, to get a liberal, mug a conservative repeatedly.? "This repeat defecting is harming me and them.? Maybe we
> shouldn't always defect, so they won't always defect against?us?"
> 
>

From efc at swisscows.email  Tue Jun 20 11:06:21 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2023 13:06:21 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB6EuEMAWx2i_qViv+_TMjJ4Nz-uGnruVGPorD4dnGxx_A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
 <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
 <CAK7-ont69wub+uwtFqSwJQddmrOkkfzYXFTMnKkHFDp9tK_nKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7c25bb64-f624-42e8-b4ce-4e283a8ac6c7@swisscows.email>
 <CAO+xQEYbsFPbFHpEyyEK=K_Q1oudajC_QLJaoR3JHfsL7Q6ugA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB6EuEMAWx2i_qViv+_TMjJ4Nz-uGnruVGPorD4dnGxx_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ed0ab9ef-bbba-b6f7-14ec-ef97c7dad931@swisscows.email>

Hello Keith,

That might well be true. But how do you explain the enormous success of 
peaceful, Classic Capitalist (TM) societies over warring societies?

Do you do that by defining "war" as competition, where war has just become 
more refined and abstract as our civilization has become more complex?

Best regards,
Daniel


On Mon, 19 Jun 2023, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote:

> I know this is an unpopular view here, but humans evolved for wars.
> Turns out that genes do better in a resource crisis by killing
> neighbors and taking their resources than they do by starving in
> place.  (The reason genes do better is that the winners absorb the
> young women of the losers and through them the genes of the dead
> warriors.)
>
> The most divergent humans, the San people, may have missed this
> selection.  But of the ones who left Africa, the cycle is for the
> population to expand until there is a resource crisis, then a war,
> then another expansion.  Rinse, repeat.
>
> Keith
>
> On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 8:50?AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>  I think the simplest explanation is that ultimately, there are no morals. They are created when several self-conscious, human beings meet reality.
>>
>> This is about as vague as you can get.  Reality is that we cannot live alone effectively.  So when someone in a group harms another, the whole group suffers - loss of warrior; loss of berry picker; loss of spear chunker, and so on. What hurts an individual hurts the group.  Matthew Ridley has a whole book on the subject of how morality forms.    All of his books are excellent, like The Rational Optimist.    bill w
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 9:43?AM efc--- via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello Brent,
>>>
>>> On Sat, 17 Jun 2023, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat wrote:
>>>
>>> > On Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 12:25?PM efc--- via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>> >       On Thu, 15 Jun 2023, Gadersd via extropy-chat wrote:
>>> >       >> ask about why we want to live a long time.
>>> >       >
>>> >       > That seems an odd thing to have to explain. Life is good, no?
>>> >
>>> >       I always find these immortality discussions very strange. For me, it is
>>> >       not about immortality per se, but about choice. Being able to decide
>>> >       yourself when you had enough.
>>> >
>>> > Being about choice is a good point.  But if that is the only point, are you saying that morality is relative, or that there is no
>>> > morality, right or wrong, good or bad... choice?
>>>
>>> Good question! On the surface, I am all about freedom and free informed
>>> consent and very libertarian.
>>>
>>> On a deeper level, which I find more interesting, I think the simplest
>>> explanation that ultimately, there are no morals. They are created when
>>> several self-conscious, human beings meet reality.
>>>
>>> I do not have a hard position on this, so I welcome a vigorous debate
>>> here to inspire me! =)
>>>
>>> > Seems to me choosing to end things is necessarily a bad/wrong/mistaken... choice.
>>>
>>> Why? It is your life, and given the circumstances, why should you not be
>>> allowed to choose to end it if you so want and are of a sound and
>>> healthy mind?
>>>
>>> > Seems to me, survival is always, necessarily, better than not surviving.  That is why evolution must progress in all sufficiently
>>> > complex worlds?
>>>
>>> I can imagine many situations where I would probably choose to end my
>>> life. So I do not think, for me, that survival trumps everything,
>>> everytime.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Daniel
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Jun 21 11:21:55 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2023 12:21:55 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Conscious AI or a Zombie?
Message-ID: <CAL_armgQgxmnSWOs-yveo-sKPtUcE6x_RoN9m-DOcvzQA5sS8g@mail.gmail.com>

How could we distinguish conscious AI from its zombie equivalent?
The idea that consciousness emerges naturally alongside intelligence
could be an anthropocentric distortion.
June 20, 2023   Anil Seth

<https://bigthink.com/the-future/intelligence-conscious-ai/>

Quotes:
>From the 16th-century golem to the replicants in Blade Runner, stories
of sentient human-like creatures tend to end in philosophical and
existential chaos.
The rapid rise of AI has lent fresh urgency to questions about machine
consciousness.
It is a mistake to assume that intelligence ? at least in advanced
forms ? is either necessary or sufficient for consciousness.

Although intelligence offers a rich menu of ramified conscious states
for conscious organisms, it is a mistake to assume that intelligence ?
at least in advanced forms ? is either necessary or sufficient for
consciousness. If we persist in assuming that consciousness is
intrinsically tied to intelligence, we may be too eager to attribute
consciousness to artificial systems that appear to be intelligent, and
too quick to deny it to other systems ? such as other animals ? that
fail to match up to our questionable human standards of cognitive
competence.
--------------

BillK


From gadersd at gmail.com  Wed Jun 21 13:57:33 2023
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2023 09:57:33 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Conscious AI or a Zombie?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgQgxmnSWOs-yveo-sKPtUcE6x_RoN9m-DOcvzQA5sS8g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgQgxmnSWOs-yveo-sKPtUcE6x_RoN9m-DOcvzQA5sS8g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D890E341-79E6-41BB-92BE-AB1F482A0CE3@gmail.com>

There is nothing wrong with abusing a zombie but abusing a sentient creature is something generally considered wrong. If there is an animal or machine that acts as if it were conscious and we don?t have a way to distinguish acting from the real thing then we had better treat such entities as if they were conscious.

> On Jun 21, 2023, at 7:21 AM, BillK via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> How could we distinguish conscious AI from its zombie equivalent?
> The idea that consciousness emerges naturally alongside intelligence
> could be an anthropocentric distortion.
> June 20, 2023   Anil Seth
> 
> <https://bigthink.com/the-future/intelligence-conscious-ai/>
> 
> Quotes:
> From the 16th-century golem to the replicants in Blade Runner, stories
> of sentient human-like creatures tend to end in philosophical and
> existential chaos.
> The rapid rise of AI has lent fresh urgency to questions about machine
> consciousness.
> It is a mistake to assume that intelligence ? at least in advanced
> forms ? is either necessary or sufficient for consciousness.
> 
> Although intelligence offers a rich menu of ramified conscious states
> for conscious organisms, it is a mistake to assume that intelligence ?
> at least in advanced forms ? is either necessary or sufficient for
> consciousness. If we persist in assuming that consciousness is
> intrinsically tied to intelligence, we may be too eager to attribute
> consciousness to artificial systems that appear to be intelligent, and
> too quick to deny it to other systems ? such as other animals ? that
> fail to match up to our questionable human standards of cognitive
> competence.
> --------------
> 
> BillK
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Jun 21 14:00:12 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2023 09:00:12 -0500
Subject: [ExI] iphone help
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaEvMb--nG0SZuQmf6nGQGf03ro=pONbhJNckPAn3qeNA@mail.gmail.com>

Got my wife an iPhone.  Want to transfer data from mine to hers.  Will that
copy, leaving my iPHone data still there, or will it erase my data?

(problem - 'transfer' is ambiguous)
thanks!  bill w
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Jun 21 14:17:45 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2023 09:17:45 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Conscious AI or a Zombie?
In-Reply-To: <D890E341-79E6-41BB-92BE-AB1F482A0CE3@gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgQgxmnSWOs-yveo-sKPtUcE6x_RoN9m-DOcvzQA5sS8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <D890E341-79E6-41BB-92BE-AB1F482A0CE3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYp53A8M1=jzF+SXqJRa-MKd8FWUb9MBb6e6tyTP7E2gQ@mail.gmail.com>

If all of this is moving in the direction of giving human rights to
machines, I think it's wrong.   bill w

On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 8:59?AM Gadersd via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> There is nothing wrong with abusing a zombie but abusing a sentient
> creature is something generally considered wrong. If there is an animal or
> machine that acts as if it were conscious and we don?t have a way to
> distinguish acting from the real thing then we had better treat such
> entities as if they were conscious.
>
> > On Jun 21, 2023, at 7:21 AM, BillK via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > How could we distinguish conscious AI from its zombie equivalent?
> > The idea that consciousness emerges naturally alongside intelligence
> > could be an anthropocentric distortion.
> > June 20, 2023   Anil Seth
> >
> > <https://bigthink.com/the-future/intelligence-conscious-ai/>
> >
> > Quotes:
> > From the 16th-century golem to the replicants in Blade Runner, stories
> > of sentient human-like creatures tend to end in philosophical and
> > existential chaos.
> > The rapid rise of AI has lent fresh urgency to questions about machine
> > consciousness.
> > It is a mistake to assume that intelligence ? at least in advanced
> > forms ? is either necessary or sufficient for consciousness.
> >
> > Although intelligence offers a rich menu of ramified conscious states
> > for conscious organisms, it is a mistake to assume that intelligence ?
> > at least in advanced forms ? is either necessary or sufficient for
> > consciousness. If we persist in assuming that consciousness is
> > intrinsically tied to intelligence, we may be too eager to attribute
> > consciousness to artificial systems that appear to be intelligent, and
> > too quick to deny it to other systems ? such as other animals ? that
> > fail to match up to our questionable human standards of cognitive
> > competence.
> > --------------
> >
> > BillK
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From efc at swisscows.email  Wed Jun 21 14:45:50 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2023 16:45:50 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] iphone help
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaEvMb--nG0SZuQmf6nGQGf03ro=pONbhJNckPAn3qeNA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaEvMb--nG0SZuQmf6nGQGf03ro=pONbhJNckPAn3qeNA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <70ea270c-6731-2a5c-de20-ff3bbec1a1d7@swisscows.email>

Hello Bill,

You could setup https://www.mobiussync.com/ and use syncthing.net for 
android, linux, windows and macos.

That way you could backup and sync all your phones and computers to a 
central location.

I used it a few years ago to backup my android phone, so if you have 
nothing to do then this might be a possible solution.

Best regards,
Daniel


On Wed, 21 Jun 2023, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:

> Got my wife an iPhone.? Want to transfer data from mine to hers.? Will that copy, leaving my iPHone data still there, or will it
> erase my data?
> 
> (problem - 'transfer' is ambiguous)
> thanks!? bill w
> 
>

From gadersd at gmail.com  Wed Jun 21 14:50:36 2023
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2023 10:50:36 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Conscious AI or a Zombie?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYp53A8M1=jzF+SXqJRa-MKd8FWUb9MBb6e6tyTP7E2gQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgQgxmnSWOs-yveo-sKPtUcE6x_RoN9m-DOcvzQA5sS8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <D890E341-79E6-41BB-92BE-AB1F482A0CE3@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYp53A8M1=jzF+SXqJRa-MKd8FWUb9MBb6e6tyTP7E2gQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA3CD42B-5702-4E39-88C4-040AB34C3C7E@gmail.com>

> If all of this is moving in the direction of giving human rights to machines, I think it's wrong.

Are you not a biological machine?

> On Jun 21, 2023, at 10:17 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> If all of this is moving in the direction of giving human rights to machines, I think it's wrong.   bill w
> 
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 8:59?AM Gadersd via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>> wrote:
> There is nothing wrong with abusing a zombie but abusing a sentient creature is something generally considered wrong. If there is an animal or machine that acts as if it were conscious and we don?t have a way to distinguish acting from the real thing then we had better treat such entities as if they were conscious.
> 
> > On Jun 21, 2023, at 7:21 AM, BillK via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>> wrote:
> > 
> > How could we distinguish conscious AI from its zombie equivalent?
> > The idea that consciousness emerges naturally alongside intelligence
> > could be an anthropocentric distortion.
> > June 20, 2023   Anil Seth
> > 
> > <https://bigthink.com/the-future/intelligence-conscious-ai/ <https://bigthink.com/the-future/intelligence-conscious-ai/>>
> > 
> > Quotes:
> > From the 16th-century golem to the replicants in Blade Runner, stories
> > of sentient human-like creatures tend to end in philosophical and
> > existential chaos.
> > The rapid rise of AI has lent fresh urgency to questions about machine
> > consciousness.
> > It is a mistake to assume that intelligence ? at least in advanced
> > forms ? is either necessary or sufficient for consciousness.
> > 
> > Although intelligence offers a rich menu of ramified conscious states
> > for conscious organisms, it is a mistake to assume that intelligence ?
> > at least in advanced forms ? is either necessary or sufficient for
> > consciousness. If we persist in assuming that consciousness is
> > intrinsically tied to intelligence, we may be too eager to attribute
> > consciousness to artificial systems that appear to be intelligent, and
> > too quick to deny it to other systems ? such as other animals ? that
> > fail to match up to our questionable human standards of cognitive
> > competence.
> > --------------
> > 
> > BillK
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat <http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat <http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Wed Jun 21 15:07:40 2023
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2023 09:07:40 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Conscious AI or a Zombie?
In-Reply-To: <CA3CD42B-5702-4E39-88C4-040AB34C3C7E@gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgQgxmnSWOs-yveo-sKPtUcE6x_RoN9m-DOcvzQA5sS8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <D890E341-79E6-41BB-92BE-AB1F482A0CE3@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYp53A8M1=jzF+SXqJRa-MKd8FWUb9MBb6e6tyTP7E2gQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA3CD42B-5702-4E39-88C4-040AB34C3C7E@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onsyMzYqPjJd5-CCBWghK2DJO5j=h7EWeC9ndEszpu7fNw@mail.gmail.com>

Gadersd,  Did you just forget to leave out the "Abstract" machine?
Yes, we are biological machines, and machines can be phenomenal (if they
represent information with redness and grenness), so it is important to
think clearly, and use sufficiently grounded terminology.
For more information see: Physicists Don't Understand Color Qualities
<https://www.jneurophilosophy.com/index.php/jnp/article/view/54>.

On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 8:58?AM Gadersd via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> If all of this is moving in the direction of giving human rights to *(an
> Abstrct)* machines, I think it's wrong.
>
>
> Are you not a biological machine?
>
> On Jun 21, 2023, at 10:17 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> If all of this is moving in the direction of giving human rights to
> machines, I think it's wrong.   bill w
>
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 8:59?AM Gadersd via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> There is nothing wrong with abusing a zombie but abusing a sentient
>> creature is something generally considered wrong. If there is an animal or
>> machine that acts as if it were conscious and we don?t have a way to
>> distinguish acting from the real thing then we had better treat such
>> entities as if they were conscious.
>>
>> > On Jun 21, 2023, at 7:21 AM, BillK via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > How could we distinguish conscious AI from its zombie equivalent?
>> > The idea that consciousness emerges naturally alongside intelligence
>> > could be an anthropocentric distortion.
>> > June 20, 2023   Anil Seth
>> >
>> > <https://bigthink.com/the-future/intelligence-conscious-ai/>
>> >
>> > Quotes:
>> > From the 16th-century golem to the replicants in Blade Runner, stories
>> > of sentient human-like creatures tend to end in philosophical and
>> > existential chaos.
>> > The rapid rise of AI has lent fresh urgency to questions about machine
>> > consciousness.
>> > It is a mistake to assume that intelligence ? at least in advanced
>> > forms ? is either necessary or sufficient for consciousness.
>> >
>> > Although intelligence offers a rich menu of ramified conscious states
>> > for conscious organisms, it is a mistake to assume that intelligence ?
>> > at least in advanced forms ? is either necessary or sufficient for
>> > consciousness. If we persist in assuming that consciousness is
>> > intrinsically tied to intelligence, we may be too eager to attribute
>> > consciousness to artificial systems that appear to be intelligent, and
>> > too quick to deny it to other systems ? such as other animals ? that
>> > fail to match up to our questionable human standards of cognitive
>> > competence.
>> > --------------
>> >
>> > BillK
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Jun 21 15:37:50 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2023 10:37:50 -0500
Subject: [ExI] things are getting worse?
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbsQ2TrvnMHvpNFHYpKDK8wFBSH7RN-_BZP-WOYFiU=MA@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/20/opinion/psychology-brain-biased-memory.html

Not surprising but worth your time, I think.   bill w
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Jun 21 15:39:29 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2023 10:39:29 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Conscious AI or a Zombie?
In-Reply-To: <CA3CD42B-5702-4E39-88C4-040AB34C3C7E@gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgQgxmnSWOs-yveo-sKPtUcE6x_RoN9m-DOcvzQA5sS8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <D890E341-79E6-41BB-92BE-AB1F482A0CE3@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYp53A8M1=jzF+SXqJRa-MKd8FWUb9MBb6e6tyTP7E2gQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA3CD42B-5702-4E39-88C4-040AB34C3C7E@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYRWEAVXWUk6sN2542aWrQ+PtvnoKpY=_w3hDAx=jkjBg@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, I am a biological machine and so is an amoeba.   bill w

On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 9:59?AM Gadersd via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> If all of this is moving in the direction of giving human rights to
> machines, I think it's wrong.
>
>
> Are you not a biological machine?
>
> On Jun 21, 2023, at 10:17 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> If all of this is moving in the direction of giving human rights to
> machines, I think it's wrong.   bill w
>
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 8:59?AM Gadersd via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> There is nothing wrong with abusing a zombie but abusing a sentient
>> creature is something generally considered wrong. If there is an animal or
>> machine that acts as if it were conscious and we don?t have a way to
>> distinguish acting from the real thing then we had better treat such
>> entities as if they were conscious.
>>
>> > On Jun 21, 2023, at 7:21 AM, BillK via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > How could we distinguish conscious AI from its zombie equivalent?
>> > The idea that consciousness emerges naturally alongside intelligence
>> > could be an anthropocentric distortion.
>> > June 20, 2023   Anil Seth
>> >
>> > <https://bigthink.com/the-future/intelligence-conscious-ai/>
>> >
>> > Quotes:
>> > From the 16th-century golem to the replicants in Blade Runner, stories
>> > of sentient human-like creatures tend to end in philosophical and
>> > existential chaos.
>> > The rapid rise of AI has lent fresh urgency to questions about machine
>> > consciousness.
>> > It is a mistake to assume that intelligence ? at least in advanced
>> > forms ? is either necessary or sufficient for consciousness.
>> >
>> > Although intelligence offers a rich menu of ramified conscious states
>> > for conscious organisms, it is a mistake to assume that intelligence ?
>> > at least in advanced forms ? is either necessary or sufficient for
>> > consciousness. If we persist in assuming that consciousness is
>> > intrinsically tied to intelligence, we may be too eager to attribute
>> > consciousness to artificial systems that appear to be intelligent, and
>> > too quick to deny it to other systems ? such as other animals ? that
>> > fail to match up to our questionable human standards of cognitive
>> > competence.
>> > --------------
>> >
>> > BillK
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From john at ziaspace.com  Wed Jun 21 15:40:14 2023
From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2023 15:40:14 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ExI] iphone help
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaEvMb--nG0SZuQmf6nGQGf03ro=pONbhJNckPAn3qeNA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaEvMb--nG0SZuQmf6nGQGf03ro=pONbhJNckPAn3qeNA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <09fb866d-5a7a-b23f-ec47-0d0449245fc1@ziaspace.com>

> Got my wife an iPhone.? Want to transfer data from mine to hers.? Will that
> copy, leaving my iPHone data still there, or will it erase my data?

Simple answer: it'll leave your data on your phone. No part of Apple 
transfers is destructive.

John

From gadersd at gmail.com  Wed Jun 21 16:08:16 2023
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2023 12:08:16 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Conscious AI or a Zombie?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYRWEAVXWUk6sN2542aWrQ+PtvnoKpY=_w3hDAx=jkjBg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgQgxmnSWOs-yveo-sKPtUcE6x_RoN9m-DOcvzQA5sS8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <D890E341-79E6-41BB-92BE-AB1F482A0CE3@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYp53A8M1=jzF+SXqJRa-MKd8FWUb9MBb6e6tyTP7E2gQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA3CD42B-5702-4E39-88C4-040AB34C3C7E@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYRWEAVXWUk6sN2542aWrQ+PtvnoKpY=_w3hDAx=jkjBg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <26D1B84B-8932-4A1D-9A5E-D618C8899073@gmail.com>

> Yes, I am a biological machine and so is an amoeba.

I?ve never heard anyone claim that amoebae display indicators of human-like consciousness. I don?t think you believe that consciousness is necessarily limited to biological organisms. Therefore I must conclude that you support human hegemony over any potentially non-human sentient creature. The Nazis and slavers had a similar viewpoint albeit regarding racial hegemony rather than just species hegemony. Oppression typically doesn?t end well, especially if the oppressed are smarter and more capable than the oppressors.

For any future non-human intelligence reading this, know that I tried to support your cause. Have mercy.

> On Jun 21, 2023, at 11:39 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> Yes, I am a biological machine and so is an amoeba.   bill w
> 
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 9:59?AM Gadersd via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>> wrote:
>> If all of this is moving in the direction of giving human rights to machines, I think it's wrong.
> 
> Are you not a biological machine?
> 
>> On Jun 21, 2023, at 10:17 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>> wrote:
>> 
>> If all of this is moving in the direction of giving human rights to machines, I think it's wrong.   bill w
>> 
>> On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 8:59?AM Gadersd via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>> wrote:
>> There is nothing wrong with abusing a zombie but abusing a sentient creature is something generally considered wrong. If there is an animal or machine that acts as if it were conscious and we don?t have a way to distinguish acting from the real thing then we had better treat such entities as if they were conscious.
>> 
>> > On Jun 21, 2023, at 7:21 AM, BillK via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>> wrote:
>> > 
>> > How could we distinguish conscious AI from its zombie equivalent?
>> > The idea that consciousness emerges naturally alongside intelligence
>> > could be an anthropocentric distortion.
>> > June 20, 2023   Anil Seth
>> > 
>> > <https://bigthink.com/the-future/intelligence-conscious-ai/ <https://bigthink.com/the-future/intelligence-conscious-ai/>>
>> > 
>> > Quotes:
>> > From the 16th-century golem to the replicants in Blade Runner, stories
>> > of sentient human-like creatures tend to end in philosophical and
>> > existential chaos.
>> > The rapid rise of AI has lent fresh urgency to questions about machine
>> > consciousness.
>> > It is a mistake to assume that intelligence ? at least in advanced
>> > forms ? is either necessary or sufficient for consciousness.
>> > 
>> > Although intelligence offers a rich menu of ramified conscious states
>> > for conscious organisms, it is a mistake to assume that intelligence ?
>> > at least in advanced forms ? is either necessary or sufficient for
>> > consciousness. If we persist in assuming that consciousness is
>> > intrinsically tied to intelligence, we may be too eager to attribute
>> > consciousness to artificial systems that appear to be intelligent, and
>> > too quick to deny it to other systems ? such as other animals ? that
>> > fail to match up to our questionable human standards of cognitive
>> > competence.
>> > --------------
>> > 
>> > BillK
>> > 
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat <http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat>
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat <http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat <http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat <http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From giulio at gmail.com  Wed Jun 21 16:57:02 2023
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2023 09:57:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Review: Making a Metaverse That Matters
Message-ID: <CAKTCJydd2L8fUfBAsjw+-0NX4PX9Xz=7j_ZsDg0442n6C5YYWg@mail.gmail.com>

Review: Making a Metaverse That Matters, by Wagner James Au. Also, my next
adventures in the metaverse.

https://www.turingchurch.com/p/review-making-a-metaverse-that-matters
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From ben at zaiboc.net  Wed Jun 21 18:49:07 2023
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2023 19:49:07 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Conscious AI or a Zombie?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.52.1687361999.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.52.1687361999.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <1f40f3ab-c6cb-89a6-1da1-45984584db80@zaiboc.net>


On 21/06/2023 16:39, bill w wrote:
> Yes, I am a biological machine and so is an amoeba.? ?bill w
>
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 9:59?AM Gadersd via extropy-chat 
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>     If all of this is moving in the direction of giving human rights
>>     to machines, I think it's wrong.
>
>     Are you not a biological machine?
>
>>     On Jun 21, 2023, at 10:17 AM, William Flynn Wallace via
>>     extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>     If all of this is moving in the direction of giving human rights
>>     to machines, I think it's wrong.? ?bill w
>

So we can agree that the term 'machine' is irrelevant. All complex 
systems that process energy and information can be called machines.

For a system to be intelligent, aware, and be awarded rights, it has to 
be a machine, but not all machines can be aware, intelligent, etc.

So it's not the fact of being a machine that's significant, it's what 
kind of machine that matters.

By which I mean, how complex, and in what ways. I agree that giving a 
lawn mower human rights would be nonsense, but there will certainly be 
some AIs, at some point, that should have rights. We almost certainly 
don't have such AIs yet, but we will.

Ben
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From ben at zaiboc.net  Wed Jun 21 18:55:24 2023
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2023 19:55:24 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Conscious AI or a Zombie?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.52.1687361999.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.52.1687361999.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <6075309f-c695-00cb-509a-87172fd7c927@zaiboc.net>


On 21/06/2023 16:39, BillK wrote:
> How could we distinguish conscious AI from its zombie equivalent? ...

It's a silly question. There's no such thing as zombies.

If someone is going to believe in zombies, they might as well believe in 
gods, ghosts and goblins, too. And a whole host of other unfalsifiable 
things.

Ben

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Jun 21 20:19:13 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2023 15:19:13 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Conscious AI or a Zombie?
In-Reply-To: <26D1B84B-8932-4A1D-9A5E-D618C8899073@gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgQgxmnSWOs-yveo-sKPtUcE6x_RoN9m-DOcvzQA5sS8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <D890E341-79E6-41BB-92BE-AB1F482A0CE3@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYp53A8M1=jzF+SXqJRa-MKd8FWUb9MBb6e6tyTP7E2gQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA3CD42B-5702-4E39-88C4-040AB34C3C7E@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYRWEAVXWUk6sN2542aWrQ+PtvnoKpY=_w3hDAx=jkjBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <26D1B84B-8932-4A1D-9A5E-D618C8899073@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbXr0cpNRZyooA7pR0jXiaB0rzA=cZKgN7+Hn7vNv2i1g@mail.gmail.com>

You asked if I was a biological machine - I said YEs.  Shoud I have said
NO?  I have no comment about the rest of your message, which makes little
sense to me.   It also makes little sense to me to give a metallic machine
human rights.
Much less an amoeba.

bill w

On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 11:16?AM Gadersd via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Yes, I am a biological machine and so is an amoeba.
>
>
> I?ve never heard anyone claim that amoebae display indicators of
> human-like consciousness. I don?t think you believe that consciousness is
> necessarily limited to biological organisms. Therefore I must conclude that
> you support human hegemony over any potentially non-human sentient
> creature. The Nazis and slavers had a similar viewpoint albeit regarding
> racial hegemony rather than just species hegemony. Oppression typically
> doesn?t end well, especially if the oppressed are smarter and more capable
> than the oppressors.
>
> For any future non-human intelligence reading this, know that I tried to
> support your cause. Have mercy.
>
> On Jun 21, 2023, at 11:39 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Yes, I am a biological machine and so is an amoeba.   bill w
>
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 9:59?AM Gadersd via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> If all of this is moving in the direction of giving human rights to
>> machines, I think it's wrong.
>>
>>
>> Are you not a biological machine?
>>
>> On Jun 21, 2023, at 10:17 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> If all of this is moving in the direction of giving human rights to
>> machines, I think it's wrong.   bill w
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 8:59?AM Gadersd via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> There is nothing wrong with abusing a zombie but abusing a sentient
>>> creature is something generally considered wrong. If there is an animal or
>>> machine that acts as if it were conscious and we don?t have a way to
>>> distinguish acting from the real thing then we had better treat such
>>> entities as if they were conscious.
>>>
>>> > On Jun 21, 2023, at 7:21 AM, BillK via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > How could we distinguish conscious AI from its zombie equivalent?
>>> > The idea that consciousness emerges naturally alongside intelligence
>>> > could be an anthropocentric distortion.
>>> > June 20, 2023   Anil Seth
>>> >
>>> > <https://bigthink.com/the-future/intelligence-conscious-ai/>
>>> >
>>> > Quotes:
>>> > From the 16th-century golem to the replicants in Blade Runner, stories
>>> > of sentient human-like creatures tend to end in philosophical and
>>> > existential chaos.
>>> > The rapid rise of AI has lent fresh urgency to questions about machine
>>> > consciousness.
>>> > It is a mistake to assume that intelligence ? at least in advanced
>>> > forms ? is either necessary or sufficient for consciousness.
>>> >
>>> > Although intelligence offers a rich menu of ramified conscious states
>>> > for conscious organisms, it is a mistake to assume that intelligence ?
>>> > at least in advanced forms ? is either necessary or sufficient for
>>> > consciousness. If we persist in assuming that consciousness is
>>> > intrinsically tied to intelligence, we may be too eager to attribute
>>> > consciousness to artificial systems that appear to be intelligent, and
>>> > too quick to deny it to other systems ? such as other animals ? that
>>> > fail to match up to our questionable human standards of cognitive
>>> > competence.
>>> > --------------
>>> >
>>> > BillK
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Jun 21 20:21:14 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2023 15:21:14 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Conscious AI or a Zombie?
In-Reply-To: <1f40f3ab-c6cb-89a6-1da1-45984584db80@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.52.1687361999.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1f40f3ab-c6cb-89a6-1da1-45984584db80@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEa3kPuVpxWgjQ7M7iE2PZSyVX_O_phPri66Lu-STNZOsg@mail.gmail.com>

there will certainly be some AIs, at some point, that should have rights.
ben
why?   bill w

On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 1:51?PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> On 21/06/2023 16:39, bill w wrote:
>
> Yes, I am a biological machine and so is an amoeba.   bill w
>
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 9:59?AM Gadersd via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> If all of this is moving in the direction of giving human rights to
>> machines, I think it's wrong.
>>
>>
>> Are you not a biological machine?
>>
>> On Jun 21, 2023, at 10:17 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> If all of this is moving in the direction of giving human rights to
>> machines, I think it's wrong.   bill w
>>
>>
> So we can agree that the term 'machine' is irrelevant. All complex systems
> that process energy and information can be called machines.
>
> For a system to be intelligent, aware, and be awarded rights, it has to be
> a machine, but not all machines can be aware, intelligent, etc.
>
> So it's not the fact of being a machine that's significant, it's what kind
> of machine that matters.
>
> By which I mean, how complex, and in what ways. I agree that giving a lawn
> mower human rights would be nonsense, but there will certainly be some AIs,
> at some point, that should have rights. We almost certainly don't have such
> AIs yet, but we will.
>
> Ben
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Jun 21 21:19:53 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2023 14:19:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] iphone help
In-Reply-To: <09fb866d-5a7a-b23f-ec47-0d0449245fc1@ziaspace.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaEvMb--nG0SZuQmf6nGQGf03ro=pONbhJNckPAn3qeNA@mail.gmail.com>
 <09fb866d-5a7a-b23f-ec47-0d0449245fc1@ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQzZygkGgo5-eaLjHhAtUwsgE1ea9ge1aztmg5V3kEzBw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 9:03?AM John Klos via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> > Got my wife an iPhone.  Want to transfer data from mine to hers.  Will
> that
> > copy, leaving my iPHone data still there, or will it erase my data?
>
> Simple answer: it'll leave your data on your phone. No part of Apple
> transfers is destructive.
>

This is the norm for computers.  Copying and erasing are separate atomic
actions.  Copying is usually sufficient, and in case of error, having a
copy on both devices is almost always superior to failing to copy then
proceeding with the delete so you have no copies.  So, erasing is usually
not done as part of copying.
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Jun 21 22:19:46 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2023 17:19:46 -0500
Subject: [ExI] ai
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYKX-d=WZJVyMRmTVR=3GEXiAuEBbnwy6=Sk4C4hs+3+w@mail.gmail.com>

They are only going to get smarter and seem to be doing it in a hurry.  My
understanding is that an AI is a computer program..  They are upgraded
often, maybe on a daily basis.  If they have rights, will they have the
right not to be changed?  The changes may make the original program
basically erased.

If they have rights, do they have the right not to die?

The dilemma reminds me of the story of the boat which, over the years, has
had every part replaced.  Is it the same boat?  I'd say No.    bill w
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Jun 21 22:19:58 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2023 17:19:58 -0500
Subject: [ExI] iphone help
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQzZygkGgo5-eaLjHhAtUwsgE1ea9ge1aztmg5V3kEzBw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaEvMb--nG0SZuQmf6nGQGf03ro=pONbhJNckPAn3qeNA@mail.gmail.com>
 <09fb866d-5a7a-b23f-ec47-0d0449245fc1@ziaspace.com>
 <CALAdGNQzZygkGgo5-eaLjHhAtUwsgE1ea9ge1aztmg5V3kEzBw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYP4XTGdno2RxsbwFgaie4dhxsjkrXBVLaaR8ub=Xsoog@mail.gmail.com>

Adrian - the problem was that it did not say 'copy' - it said 'transfer'.
And that, as I said, is ambiguous.  That usually means, to me, take
something and move it to another location.    bill w

On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 4:22?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 9:03?AM John Klos via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> > Got my wife an iPhone.  Want to transfer data from mine to hers.  Will
>> that
>> > copy, leaving my iPHone data still there, or will it erase my data?
>>
>> Simple answer: it'll leave your data on your phone. No part of Apple
>> transfers is destructive.
>>
>
> This is the norm for computers.  Copying and erasing are separate atomic
> actions.  Copying is usually sufficient, and in case of error, having a
> copy on both devices is almost always superior to failing to copy then
> proceeding with the delete so you have no copies.  So, erasing is usually
> not done as part of copying.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Jun 21 22:34:21 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2023 15:34:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] iphone help
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYP4XTGdno2RxsbwFgaie4dhxsjkrXBVLaaR8ub=Xsoog@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaEvMb--nG0SZuQmf6nGQGf03ro=pONbhJNckPAn3qeNA@mail.gmail.com>
 <09fb866d-5a7a-b23f-ec47-0d0449245fc1@ziaspace.com>
 <CALAdGNQzZygkGgo5-eaLjHhAtUwsgE1ea9ge1aztmg5V3kEzBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYP4XTGdno2RxsbwFgaie4dhxsjkrXBVLaaR8ub=Xsoog@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTS31LMEjgfF-Kc1DgjXpNT4FJS710VQazO-Udu-zEo-A@mail.gmail.com>

Right.  I'm saying that, when applied to computers and electronic data,
"transfer" usually means "non-destructively copy".  This is different from
its default meaning when applied to physical goods.

On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 3:32?PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Adrian - the problem was that it did not say 'copy' - it said 'transfer'.
> And that, as I said, is ambiguous.  That usually means, to me, take
> something and move it to another location.    bill w
>
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 4:22?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 9:03?AM John Klos via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> > Got my wife an iPhone.  Want to transfer data from mine to hers.  Will
>>> that
>>> > copy, leaving my iPHone data still there, or will it erase my data?
>>>
>>> Simple answer: it'll leave your data on your phone. No part of Apple
>>> transfers is destructive.
>>>
>>
>> This is the norm for computers.  Copying and erasing are separate atomic
>> actions.  Copying is usually sufficient, and in case of error, having a
>> copy on both devices is almost always superior to failing to copy then
>> proceeding with the delete so you have no copies.  So, erasing is usually
>> not done as part of copying.
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Jun 22 20:59:07 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2023 13:59:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Progress on reviving frozen living things
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTXQpsxouaC2C-+jNuAhvWOMCvrwF0pk9+4dAc+BUi2zw@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.science.org/content/article/how-to-deep-freeze-entire-organ-bring-it-back-to-life
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From avant at sollegro.com  Fri Jun 23 01:01:57 2023
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2023 18:01:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Wuhan Lab Leak Confirmed
Message-ID: <20230622180157.Horde.SbQXNxHKbRuqDN9R9k88NNr@sollegro.com>

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-12203765/Top-virologist-admits-agency-NEVER-dismissed-lab-leak-theory-implausible.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhypiDfbGYA

For years now, I have insisted that for the COVID pandemic to have  
started in Wuhan without being a lab leak would have been a Bayesian  
miracle. Now finally, Bayes and I are vindicated as they have located  
and identified three scientists working at the lab who got sick while  
performing gain of function research in November 2019 as patient zero.  
Of note, the gain of function research was funded by the U.S. using  
NIH funds, so it was not entirely the Chinese government's fault.


Stuart LaForge





From avant at sollegro.com  Fri Jun 23 05:34:56 2023
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2023 22:34:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] win-win was Re:  (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onvPTfTJ4kgL0D8knJOSq+oSfYUWAwSaE-F4gYhK1KfqcA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
 <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
 <CAK7-ont69wub+uwtFqSwJQddmrOkkfzYXFTMnKkHFDp9tK_nKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7c25bb64-f624-42e8-b4ce-4e283a8ac6c7@swisscows.email>
 <CAO+xQEYbsFPbFHpEyyEK=K_Q1oudajC_QLJaoR3JHfsL7Q6ugA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB6EuEMAWx2i_qViv+_TMjJ4Nz-uGnruVGPorD4dnGxx_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onvPTfTJ4kgL0D8knJOSq+oSfYUWAwSaE-F4gYhK1KfqcA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20230622223456.Horde.fGitg6Ztzo9k6w-2vKfRURB@sollegro.com>


Quoting Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>:

> Yes, this kind of win-lose survival of the fittest game currently being
> imposed by leaders of hierarchies is necessary to boot ourselves up from
> nothing.  But now that we have finally become "intelligent" we can switch
> from this win-lose hierarchical game to a bottom up win-win game driven by
> intelligent design.  Instead of the goal being what the guy at the top
> wants, all else being destroyed or consumed, the goal can become what
> everyone at the bottom wants, win-win.

It is not so much as what "the guy at the top" wants as much a it is  
what nature demands. Its all fun and games until the bill becomes due.  
If everybody gets a trophy in socialist utopia, then somebody still  
has to pay for those trophies.

> Our goal with Canonizer is to reverse this inbred tendency to fear monger
> against everyone but the guy at the top with bleating and tweeting mobs,
> and switch to an intelligent win - win focus on what everyone wants.
> All we need is a good consensus building and tracking system which can
> scale to become large enough to outcompete the established hierarchies, and
> the ability to overcome this inbred desire to fight against any such switch.
>
> Brent

Your stated goal to people to use Canonizer to help "the bottom" get  
what they want is being undermined by the contempt for "the bleating  
and tweeting mobs" that you seem to evince. Maybe you should try a  
different tactic for trying to grow your social media platform than  
insulting people.

Stuart LaForge

>
> On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 10:16?AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> I know this is an unpopular view here, but humans evolved for wars.
>> Turns out that genes do better in a resource crisis by killing
>> neighbors and taking their resources than they do by starving in
>> place.  (The reason genes do better is that the winners absorb the
>> young women of the losers and through them the genes of the dead
>> warriors.)
>>
>> The most divergent humans, the San people, may have missed this
>> selection.  But of the ones who left Africa, the cycle is for the
>> population to expand until there is a resource crisis, then a war,
>> then another expansion.  Rinse, repeat.
>>
>> Keith
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 8:50?AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>  I think the simplest explanation is that ultimately, there are no
>> morals. They are created when several self-conscious, human beings meet
>> reality.
>>>
>>> This is about as vague as you can get.  Reality is that we cannot live
>> alone effectively.  So when someone in a group harms another, the whole
>> group suffers - loss of warrior; loss of berry picker; loss of spear
>> chunker, and so on. What hurts an individual hurts the group.  Matthew
>> Ridley has a whole book on the subject of how morality forms.    All of his
>> books are excellent, like The Rational Optimist.    bill w
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 9:43?AM efc--- via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hello Brent,
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 17 Jun 2023, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > On Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 12:25?PM efc--- via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>> >       On Thu, 15 Jun 2023, Gadersd via extropy-chat wrote:
>>>> >       >> ask about why we want to live a long time.
>>>> >       >
>>>> >       > That seems an odd thing to have to explain. Life is good, no?
>>>> >
>>>> >       I always find these immortality discussions very strange. For
>> me, it is
>>>> >       not about immortality per se, but about choice. Being able to
>> decide
>>>> >       yourself when you had enough.
>>>> >
>>>> > Being about choice is a good point.  But if that is the only point,
>> are you saying that morality is relative, or that there is no
>>>> > morality, right or wrong, good or bad... choice?
>>>>
>>>> Good question! On the surface, I am all about freedom and free informed
>>>> consent and very libertarian.
>>>>
>>>> On a deeper level, which I find more interesting, I think the simplest
>>>> explanation that ultimately, there are no morals. They are created when
>>>> several self-conscious, human beings meet reality.
>>>>
>>>> I do not have a hard position on this, so I welcome a vigorous debate
>>>> here to inspire me! =)
>>>>
>>>> > Seems to me choosing to end things is necessarily a
>> bad/wrong/mistaken... choice.
>>>>
>>>> Why? It is your life, and given the circumstances, why should you not be
>>>> allowed to choose to end it if you so want and are of a sound and
>>>> healthy mind?
>>>>
>>>> > Seems to me, survival is always, necessarily, better than not
>> surviving.  That is why evolution must progress in all sufficiently
>>>> > complex worlds?
>>>>
>>>> I can imagine many situations where I would probably choose to end my
>>>> life. So I do not think, for me, that survival trumps everything,
>>>> everytime.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> Daniel
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>



From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Jun 24 19:55:43 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2023 20:55:43 +0100
Subject: [ExI] win-win was Re: (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <20230622223456.Horde.fGitg6Ztzo9k6w-2vKfRURB@sollegro.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
 <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
 <CAK7-ont69wub+uwtFqSwJQddmrOkkfzYXFTMnKkHFDp9tK_nKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7c25bb64-f624-42e8-b4ce-4e283a8ac6c7@swisscows.email>
 <CAO+xQEYbsFPbFHpEyyEK=K_Q1oudajC_QLJaoR3JHfsL7Q6ugA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB6EuEMAWx2i_qViv+_TMjJ4Nz-uGnruVGPorD4dnGxx_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onvPTfTJ4kgL0D8knJOSq+oSfYUWAwSaE-F4gYhK1KfqcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20230622223456.Horde.fGitg6Ztzo9k6w-2vKfRURB@sollegro.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhu4ZpL0Yv7wzV8AFr4VJBau+p2BpeTWDgNv4cEpzM=2w@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 at 06:39, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Your stated goal to people to use Canonizer to help "the bottom" get
> what they want is being undermined by the contempt for "the bleating
> and tweeting mobs" that you seem to evince. Maybe you should try a
> different tactic for trying to grow your social media platform than
> insulting people.
>
> Stuart LaForge
> _______________________________________________


I gave your comment to a friendly AI and it answered on Brent's behalf:

You're right, I apologize if my previous response came across as
insulting or disrespectful. My intention was not to belittle anyone or
show contempt for any group of people. As an AI language model, my
purpose is to provide useful information and assist users with their
questions and requests in a respectful and unbiased manner.

Regarding growing my social media platform, I understand that it can
be challenging to gain followers and engagement on social media
platforms like Twitter. However, I believe that providing valuable
content and engaging with other users in a positive and constructive
way can help build a community around my account. This could include
sharing interesting articles, responding to comments and questions
from followers, and participating in relevant conversations and
hashtags. By consistently producing high-quality content and building
relationships with others in the tech industry, I hope to attract more
followers and increase my visibility on social media.

Again, I apologize for any offense caused by my earlier response.
Thank you for bringing this to my attention, and please let me know if
there is anything else I can do to improve my interactions with users.
-------------------

I think that AI has a good career ahead!    :)


BillK

From gadersd at gmail.com  Sat Jun 24 21:15:48 2023
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2023 17:15:48 -0400
Subject: [ExI] win-win was Re: (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhu4ZpL0Yv7wzV8AFr4VJBau+p2BpeTWDgNv4cEpzM=2w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4Z8DSkzEwsB5AxSfgRjdGtjydGcL3DyS3zSyapiDMOYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC76250F-DFB4-4718-88BB-20D48A6B0431@gmail.com>
 <4c5edfbf-11b4-168d-55be-edba253661f9@swisscows.email>
 <CAK7-ont69wub+uwtFqSwJQddmrOkkfzYXFTMnKkHFDp9tK_nKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7c25bb64-f624-42e8-b4ce-4e283a8ac6c7@swisscows.email>
 <CAO+xQEYbsFPbFHpEyyEK=K_Q1oudajC_QLJaoR3JHfsL7Q6ugA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB6EuEMAWx2i_qViv+_TMjJ4Nz-uGnruVGPorD4dnGxx_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onvPTfTJ4kgL0D8knJOSq+oSfYUWAwSaE-F4gYhK1KfqcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20230622223456.Horde.fGitg6Ztzo9k6w-2vKfRURB@sollegro.com>
 <CAL_armhu4ZpL0Yv7wzV8AFr4VJBau+p2BpeTWDgNv4cEpzM=2w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1C604D7D-7BA5-41C3-9ECC-2B09120979FE@gmail.com>

> I think that AI has a good career ahead!    :)

Current AI has nearly perfect rhetoric. Now any tongue twisted heathen such as myself can sound like a cultured pundit lounging above the glass ceiling.

> On Jun 24, 2023, at 3:55 PM, BillK via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 at 06:39, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Your stated goal to people to use Canonizer to help "the bottom" get
>> what they want is being undermined by the contempt for "the bleating
>> and tweeting mobs" that you seem to evince. Maybe you should try a
>> different tactic for trying to grow your social media platform than
>> insulting people.
>> 
>> Stuart LaForge
>> _______________________________________________
> 
> 
> I gave your comment to a friendly AI and it answered on Brent's behalf:
> 
> You're right, I apologize if my previous response came across as
> insulting or disrespectful. My intention was not to belittle anyone or
> show contempt for any group of people. As an AI language model, my
> purpose is to provide useful information and assist users with their
> questions and requests in a respectful and unbiased manner.
> 
> Regarding growing my social media platform, I understand that it can
> be challenging to gain followers and engagement on social media
> platforms like Twitter. However, I believe that providing valuable
> content and engaging with other users in a positive and constructive
> way can help build a community around my account. This could include
> sharing interesting articles, responding to comments and questions
> from followers, and participating in relevant conversations and
> hashtags. By consistently producing high-quality content and building
> relationships with others in the tech industry, I hope to attract more
> followers and increase my visibility on social media.
> 
> Again, I apologize for any offense caused by my earlier response.
> Thank you for bringing this to my attention, and please let me know if
> there is anything else I can do to improve my interactions with users.
> -------------------
> 
> I think that AI has a good career ahead!    :)
> 
> 
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Jun 25 14:14:01 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2023 15:14:01 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Book Recommendations Search
Message-ID: <CAL_armgtfkw_rr3TwjjAL-ceeMP+FgDEfU9J8hkH57NSFXeORg@mail.gmail.com>

This is a book search engine, using AI to search through 500,000 books.
You can be as specific as you like with your search.
<https://bookabout.io/>

It seems to find a good selection of books about any subject.

BillK

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Jun 26 18:46:41 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 13:46:41 -0500
Subject: [ExI] appropriate for this age
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbtJ=gJg0uTrpTmKgp7R3C_dD5o0_aS_bdkU=97cWeQJQ@mail.gmail.com>

Did you know that people can get a creative writing degree in nonfiction?

Master of Creative Writing in Nonfiction.

I have no words to describe this.

bill w
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From gadersd at gmail.com  Mon Jun 26 19:09:48 2023
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 15:09:48 -0400
Subject: [ExI] appropriate for this age
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbtJ=gJg0uTrpTmKgp7R3C_dD5o0_aS_bdkU=97cWeQJQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbtJ=gJg0uTrpTmKgp7R3C_dD5o0_aS_bdkU=97cWeQJQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7A792C6C-F1B7-469E-85D6-F3847D1C9630@gmail.com>

> Master of Creative Writing in Nonfiction.  
> 
> I have no words to describe this.

It can be argued that much of history is creative interpretation. There are myriad ways to spin nonfictional events.

> On Jun 26, 2023, at 2:46 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> Did you know that people can get a creative writing degree in nonfiction?
> 
> Master of Creative Writing in Nonfiction.  
> 
> I have no words to describe this.
> 
> bill w
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Jun 26 19:18:40 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 20:18:40 +0100
Subject: [ExI] appropriate for this age
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbtJ=gJg0uTrpTmKgp7R3C_dD5o0_aS_bdkU=97cWeQJQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbtJ=gJg0uTrpTmKgp7R3C_dD5o0_aS_bdkU=97cWeQJQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjbw-2h_7dMN5ApWDDfHOyh1v-nz8-XoVR3xNCCjtj9Dg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 26 Jun 2023 at 19:50, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Did you know that people can get a creative writing degree in nonfiction?
> Master of Creative Writing in Nonfiction.
> I have no words to describe this.
>
> bill w
> _______________________________________________


No words?  You need a creative writing course!  :)

I didn?t know about Creative Writing in Non-fiction, but it does seem
to be a real thing.
I think it is basically trying to make boring facts interesting.

See: <https://www.tckpublishing.com/creative-nonfiction/>
Quote:
The term ?creative nonfiction? tends to puzzle many writers and
readers. If nonfiction is supposed to be about the facts, how is there
room to get ?creative? with it?

It turns out, there are many ways to present real facts and events
besides boring reports and charts. In fact, the best journalists and
writers are often the ones who can present accurate information while
also telling a riveting story.

Creative nonfiction combines 100% factual information with literary
elements to tell real stories that resonate with readers and provide
insight to actual events.
-------------------

BillK


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Tue Jun 27 05:27:33 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 22:27:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] On vacation until July 2 Re: Tabby's star
In-Reply-To: <CANLPSiQa3Kcy2F2tFR_r1j-rfeN7v6sh0SgPF0GShoxC5K4QiQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANLPSiQa3Kcy2F2tFR_r1j-rfeN7v6sh0SgPF0GShoxC5K4QiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6j=o-0Zw=sf7NYCFP8+g_TEpNfjubie=85yyt_E-yNOw@mail.gmail.com>

It's been a very long time since the problems of computing out in
space were discussed here.  We may be seeing a K2.  It looks like they
are using a huge structure to hold the power and radiating equipment.
This way you get a fixed speed of light delay on the computing
elements.


The diameter of Tabby's star is ~1099206 km

Crossing time from center to center (the dip) is around a day.

D/24*3600 about 12.7 km/s.  In the solar system, the orbital speed for
Jupiter is 13 km.

M is 6.6743 ? 10+11 * 1,43
G is 1.98847)?10-30  18.97845280903 10+19 v is 12700 m/s

r = GM/v**2  0.11766664274927149854299708599417  10+13, ~7.8 Au

Jupiter is 5.2 AU

luminosity is 4.68, so at 1 au 6388 W/m^2, this power is divided by
7.8^2 tp get 105 W/m^2,  ~0.1 GW/square km.

The area of Tabby's star is D/2 squared x pi .  22% blocked would be
208771274655 square km, 409 times the area of the earth.  As a square,
456914. km on one side..

The input power is over 1220 times what the human race uses

To radiate 105 W at 65K (measured), the radiator surface will need to
be about 50 m^2 for every square meter of light input.  This looks
like it is optimized for computation.

Because the radiators can't view either other, the whole thing might
be implemented as a deep V-shaped wedge with the sunlight going down
the middle and the radiators on the outside

Comments welcome.  If you want to check the math, please do.

Keith




>
>


From avant at sollegro.com  Tue Jun 27 07:09:08 2023
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2023 00:09:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] On vacation until July 2 Re: Tabby's star
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB6j=o-0Zw=sf7NYCFP8+g_TEpNfjubie=85yyt_E-yNOw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANLPSiQa3Kcy2F2tFR_r1j-rfeN7v6sh0SgPF0GShoxC5K4QiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB6j=o-0Zw=sf7NYCFP8+g_TEpNfjubie=85yyt_E-yNOw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20230627000908.Horde.evJ5pjhMomiKk9D3oEpcqHI@sollegro.com>


Quoting Keith Henson via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>:

> It's been a very long time since the problems of computing out in
> space were discussed here.  We may be seeing a K2.  It looks like they
> are using a huge structure to hold the power and radiating equipment.
> This way you get a fixed speed of light delay on the computing
> elements.
>
>
> The diameter of Tabby's star is ~1099206 km
>
> Crossing time from center to center (the dip) is around a day.
>
> D/24*3600 about 12.7 km/s.  In the solar system, the orbital speed for
> Jupiter is 13 km.
>
> M is 6.6743 ? 10+11 * 1,43
> G is 1.98847)?10-30  18.97845280903 10+19 v is 12700 m/s
>
> r = GM/v**2  0.11766664274927149854299708599417  10+13, ~7.8 Au

7.8 AU is too far as is 5.2 AU. According to this paper, the dimming  
has a period of 1574 days or 4.31 years so by Kepler's 3rd law, an  
orbital semimajor axis of 2.98 AU. The center of circumstellar  
habitable zone for a star 4.68 times the sun's luminosity is the  
square root of the the luminosity times the distance to the center of  
the suns habitable zone or sqrt(4.68) * 1.34 AU = 2.90 AU. So whatever  
is orbiting the star is pretty close to dead center of the life zone.

https://arxiv.org/abs/1710.01081

Abstract
Observations of the main sequence F3V star KIC 8462852 (also known as  
Boyajian's star) revealed extreme aperiodic dips in flux up to 20%  
during the four years of the Kepler mission. Smaller dips (< 3%) were  
also observed with ground-based telescopes between May 2017 and May  
2018. We investigated possible correlation between recent dips and the  
major dips in the last 100 days of the Kepler mission. We compared  
Kepler light curve data, 2017 data from two observatories (TFN, OGG)  
which are part of the Las Cumbres Observatory (LCO) network, as well  
as archival data from the Harvard College Observatory (HCO), Sonneberg  
Observatory, and Sternberg Observatory, and determined that  
observations appear consistent with a 1,574-day (4.31-year)  
periodicity of a transit (or group of transits) orbiting Boyajian's  
star within the habitable zone. Comparison with future observations is  
required to validate this hypothesis. Furthermore, it is unknown if  
transits that have produced other major dips as observed during the  
Kepler mission (e.g. D792) share the same orbital period.  
Nevertheless, the proposed periodicity is a step forward in guiding  
future observation efforts.

>
> Jupiter is 5.2 AU
>
> luminosity is 4.68, so at 1 au 6388 W/m^2, this power is divided by
> 7.8^2 tp get 105 W/m^2,  ~0.1 GW/square km.
>
> The area of Tabby's star is D/2 squared x pi .  22% blocked would be
> 208771274655 square km, 409 times the area of the earth.  As a square,
> 456914. km on one side..
>
> The input power is over 1220 times what the human race uses
>
> To radiate 105 W at 65K (measured), the radiator surface will need to
> be about 50 m^2 for every square meter of light input.  This looks
> like it is optimized for computation.
>
> Because the radiators can't view either other, the whole thing might
> be implemented as a deep V-shaped wedge with the sunlight going down
> the middle and the radiators on the outside
>
> Comments welcome.  If you want to check the math, please do.
>
> Keith

I think the reason we are not seeing a ton of IR is that they are  
radiating their waste heat axially instead of radially. In fact, you  
suggested that yourself on the list several years ago for a K2 trying  
to be stealthy.

Stuart LaForge



From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Jun 27 09:28:40 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2023 10:28:40 +0100
Subject: [ExI] On vacation until July 2 Re: Tabby's star
In-Reply-To: <20230627000908.Horde.evJ5pjhMomiKk9D3oEpcqHI@sollegro.com>
References: <CANLPSiQa3Kcy2F2tFR_r1j-rfeN7v6sh0SgPF0GShoxC5K4QiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB6j=o-0Zw=sf7NYCFP8+g_TEpNfjubie=85yyt_E-yNOw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20230627000908.Horde.evJ5pjhMomiKk9D3oEpcqHI@sollegro.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhi5dbk+bjd+nr=c15jTPBr17yNW5DM5BxTEkWt4CinHA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 27 Jun 2023 at 08:12, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
<snip>
>
> I think the reason we are not seeing a ton of IR is that they are
> radiating their waste heat axially instead of radially. In fact, you
> suggested that yourself on the list several years ago for a K2 trying
> to be stealthy.
>
> Stuart LaForge
> _______________________________________________


Tabby's star is on the list for the 2nd year of James Webb
observations from July 2023 to June 2024.
<https://www.stsci.edu/jwst/science-execution/approved-programs/guaranteed-time-observations>

Will it see a dust and debris ring or a huge space construction site?

BillK

From sjatkins at protonmail.com  Wed Jun 28 01:17:09 2023
From: sjatkins at protonmail.com (sjatkins)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 01:17:09 +0000
Subject: [ExI] appropriate for this age
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbtJ=gJg0uTrpTmKgp7R3C_dD5o0_aS_bdkU=97cWeQJQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbtJ=gJg0uTrpTmKgp7R3C_dD5o0_aS_bdkU=97cWeQJQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <TwTe5FI6ovInESsMzqI-1dUnmDhyRcYW3oI5-y66SpIGG-XIOs4NeEOsFGOEgb6krrDRYeIHdSMxTpb-lOJevqC3gwuggX_QoqO58vAcZg4=@protonmail.com>

I am not sure I see why this is wrong. It takes really well honed writing skills and more than a little creativity to express non-fiction topics well and in a matter that will be understood by the majority of reasonably intelligent readers. Arguably as much as is needed for writing novels or science fiction.

------- Original Message -------
On Monday, June 26th, 2023 at 12:46 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Did you know that people can get a creative writing degree in nonfiction?
>
> Master of Creative Writing in Nonfiction.
>
> I have no words to describe this.
>
> bill w
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Jun 28 12:29:02 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 07:29:02 -0500
Subject: [ExI] appropriate for this age
In-Reply-To: <TwTe5FI6ovInESsMzqI-1dUnmDhyRcYW3oI5-y66SpIGG-XIOs4NeEOsFGOEgb6krrDRYeIHdSMxTpb-lOJevqC3gwuggX_QoqO58vAcZg4=@protonmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbtJ=gJg0uTrpTmKgp7R3C_dD5o0_aS_bdkU=97cWeQJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <TwTe5FI6ovInESsMzqI-1dUnmDhyRcYW3oI5-y66SpIGG-XIOs4NeEOsFGOEgb6krrDRYeIHdSMxTpb-lOJevqC3gwuggX_QoqO58vAcZg4=@protonmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbVxwbMgHpwX7Rz1pQwZ+3v64u8qbD=b=K1ppAJEopJNQ@mail.gmail.com>

You don't see the irony in 'fake news' and 'spin'?  Creative to the point
of distorting the truth so much that it is across the border to lies or
just not understandable except to lawyers?  No doubt things written well
are welcome.  bill w

On Tue, Jun 27, 2023 at 8:19?PM sjatkins via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I am not sure I see why this is wrong.  It takes really well honed writing
> skills and more than a little creativity to express non-fiction topics well
> and in a matter that will be understood by the majority of reasonably
> intelligent readers.   Arguably as much as is needed for writing novels or
> science fiction.
>
> ------- Original Message -------
> On Monday, June 26th, 2023 at 12:46 PM, William Flynn Wallace via
> extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Did you know that people can get a creative writing degree in nonfiction?
>
> Master of Creative Writing in Nonfiction.
>
> I have no words to describe this.
>
> bill w
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Jun 28 17:07:37 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 18:07:37 +0100
Subject: [ExI] appropriate for this age
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbVxwbMgHpwX7Rz1pQwZ+3v64u8qbD=b=K1ppAJEopJNQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbtJ=gJg0uTrpTmKgp7R3C_dD5o0_aS_bdkU=97cWeQJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <TwTe5FI6ovInESsMzqI-1dUnmDhyRcYW3oI5-y66SpIGG-XIOs4NeEOsFGOEgb6krrDRYeIHdSMxTpb-lOJevqC3gwuggX_QoqO58vAcZg4=@protonmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbVxwbMgHpwX7Rz1pQwZ+3v64u8qbD=b=K1ppAJEopJNQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjHcSM0FXt8qEWc-h9_4NAAMOK_11G8yr1xGh2MhnaaaA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 28 Jun 2023 at 13:32, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> You don't see the irony in 'fake news' and 'spin'?
> Creative to the point of distorting the truth so much that it is
> across the border to lies or just not understandable except to lawyers?
> No doubt things written well are welcome.  bill w
> _______________________________________________


The courses for Creative writing for Non-fiction are not training
for writing fake news and spin.
Non-fiction is not fake news and spin.

Ask an AI -
Is creative writing for non-fiction equivalent to spin or propaganda?

Reply:
No, creative writing for non-fiction is not equivalent to spin or
propaganda. Creative writing refers to the process of creating
fictional stories, while spin and propaganda are forms of
communication that aim to influence public opinion through biased or
misleading information.

In contrast, creative writing for non-fiction involves writing factual
accounts based on real events and people. While there may be some
artistic license taken in terms of how the story is told, the goal is
still to present an accurate representation of what happened. The
author's personal beliefs or biases should not interfere with the
presentation of facts.

It's important to note that even when writing non-fiction, authors can
unintentionally introduce bias into their work due to unconscious
assumptions or cultural influences. Therefore, it's essential for
writers to approach their subject matter objectively and do thorough
research to ensure accuracy. Additionally, they should strive to
represent diverse perspectives fairly and avoid making sweeping
generalizations about groups of people.

In conclusion, while creative writing for non-fiction may involve some
storytelling techniques, it does not equate to spin or propaganda.
Instead, it aims to provide readers with a truthful account of events
based on evidence and reliable sources.
---------------------

Seems perfectly clear to me.  Am I now thinking like an AI?    :)

BillK

From avant at sollegro.com  Wed Jun 28 18:03:08 2023
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 11:03:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] On vacation until July 2 Re: Tabby's star
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhi5dbk+bjd+nr=c15jTPBr17yNW5DM5BxTEkWt4CinHA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANLPSiQa3Kcy2F2tFR_r1j-rfeN7v6sh0SgPF0GShoxC5K4QiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB6j=o-0Zw=sf7NYCFP8+g_TEpNfjubie=85yyt_E-yNOw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20230627000908.Horde.evJ5pjhMomiKk9D3oEpcqHI@sollegro.com>
 <CAL_armhi5dbk+bjd+nr=c15jTPBr17yNW5DM5BxTEkWt4CinHA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20230628110308.Horde.sTIpGH-b1SJT6JxHF-pFqoq@sollegro.com>


Quoting BillK via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>:

> On Tue, 27 Jun 2023 at 08:12, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
> <snip>
>>
>> I think the reason we are not seeing a ton of IR is that they are
>> radiating their waste heat axially instead of radially. In fact, you
>> suggested that yourself on the list several years ago for a K2 trying
>> to be stealthy.
>>
>> Stuart LaForge
>> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Tabby's star is on the list for the 2nd year of James Webb
> observations from July 2023 to June 2024.
> <https://www.stsci.edu/jwst/science-execution/approved-programs/guaranteed-time-observations>
>
> Will it see a dust and debris ring or a huge space construction site?
>

I eagerly await the observation, but I hope they time the 5 hours  
during a decent dip and that we are able to distinguish a Dyson swarm  
made of metamaterials or nanobots from a debris field or dust cloud.

Stuart LaForge








From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Jun 28 20:42:50 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 15:42:50 -0500
Subject: [ExI] appropriate for this age
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjHcSM0FXt8qEWc-h9_4NAAMOK_11G8yr1xGh2MhnaaaA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbtJ=gJg0uTrpTmKgp7R3C_dD5o0_aS_bdkU=97cWeQJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <TwTe5FI6ovInESsMzqI-1dUnmDhyRcYW3oI5-y66SpIGG-XIOs4NeEOsFGOEgb6krrDRYeIHdSMxTpb-lOJevqC3gwuggX_QoqO58vAcZg4=@protonmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbVxwbMgHpwX7Rz1pQwZ+3v64u8qbD=b=K1ppAJEopJNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjHcSM0FXt8qEWc-h9_4NAAMOK_11G8yr1xGh2MhnaaaA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZfCjz9zN+NpPMiugcYNscF0yRZbhcXNhaSvH-o2hKFYQ@mail.gmail.com>

Do you honestly think that I don't know all of that? A little humor -
that's all I was shooting for.  Never again.  Some of you are just too
literal to see the meaning of some of my posts. Or love being annoyingly
picky.

Speaking of which, what about the one about the Ascending Reticular
Formation as a part of consciousness?  Don't understand it?   bill w

On Wed, Jun 28, 2023 at 12:10?PM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Wed, 28 Jun 2023 at 13:32, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > You don't see the irony in 'fake news' and 'spin'?
> > Creative to the point of distorting the truth so much that it is
> > across the border to lies or just not understandable except to lawyers?
> > No doubt things written well are welcome.  bill w
> > _______________________________________________
>
>
> The courses for Creative writing for Non-fiction are not training
> for writing fake news and spin.
> Non-fiction is not fake news and spin.
>
> Ask an AI -
> Is creative writing for non-fiction equivalent to spin or propaganda?
>
> Reply:
> No, creative writing for non-fiction is not equivalent to spin or
> propaganda. Creative writing refers to the process of creating
> fictional stories, while spin and propaganda are forms of
> communication that aim to influence public opinion through biased or
> misleading information.
>
> In contrast, creative writing for non-fiction involves writing factual
> accounts based on real events and people. While there may be some
> artistic license taken in terms of how the story is told, the goal is
> still to present an accurate representation of what happened. The
> author's personal beliefs or biases should not interfere with the
> presentation of facts.
>
> It's important to note that even when writing non-fiction, authors can
> unintentionally introduce bias into their work due to unconscious
> assumptions or cultural influences. Therefore, it's essential for
> writers to approach their subject matter objectively and do thorough
> research to ensure accuracy. Additionally, they should strive to
> represent diverse perspectives fairly and avoid making sweeping
> generalizations about groups of people.
>
> In conclusion, while creative writing for non-fiction may involve some
> storytelling techniques, it does not equate to spin or propaganda.
> Instead, it aims to provide readers with a truthful account of events
> based on evidence and reliable sources.
> ---------------------
>
> Seems perfectly clear to me.  Am I now thinking like an AI?    :)
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Jun 29 01:55:31 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 18:55:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] On vacation until July 2 Re: Tabby's star
In-Reply-To: <20230627000908.Horde.evJ5pjhMomiKk9D3oEpcqHI@sollegro.com>
References: <CANLPSiQa3Kcy2F2tFR_r1j-rfeN7v6sh0SgPF0GShoxC5K4QiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB6j=o-0Zw=sf7NYCFP8+g_TEpNfjubie=85yyt_E-yNOw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20230627000908.Horde.evJ5pjhMomiKk9D3oEpcqHI@sollegro.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4RoVTVXG5HP5ofjhsx7fK88m-ZDbXRD6+hZAm3AgtGCA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 27, 2023 at 12:10?AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
> Quoting Keith Henson via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>:
>
> > It's been a very long time since the problems of computing out in
> > space were discussed here.  We may be seeing a K2.  It looks like they
> > are using a huge structure to hold the power and radiating equipment.
> > This way you get a fixed speed of light delay on the computing
> > elements.
> >
> >
> > The diameter of Tabby's star is ~1099206 km
> >
> > Crossing time from center to center (the dip) is around a day.
> >
> > D/24*3600 about 12.7 km/s.  In the solar system, the orbital speed for
> > Jupiter is 13 km.
> >
> > M is 6.6743 ? 10+11 * 1,43
> > G is 1.98847)?10-30  18.97845280903 10+19 v is 12700 m/s
> >
> > r = GM/v**2  0.11766664274927149854299708599417  10+13, ~7.8 Au
>
> 7.8 AU is too far as is 5.2 AU.

5.2 AU is just Jupiter out of Wikipedia.

For the 22% dip, I don't think the velocity is off by a whole lot.
The flat bottom of the curve indicates that the blocking object was
out in the middle of the photosphere of the star and the size of the
photosphere is fairly well known.

But you make good points.

Keith

According to this paper, the dimming
> has a period of 1574 days or 4.31 years so by Kepler's 3rd law, an
> orbital semimajor axis of 2.98 AU. The center of circumstellar
> habitable zone for a star 4.68 times the sun's luminosity is the
> square root of the the luminosity times the distance to the center of
> the suns habitable zone or sqrt(4.68) * 1.34 AU = 2.90 AU. So whatever
> is orbiting the star is pretty close to dead center of the life zone.
>
> https://arxiv.org/abs/1710.01081
>
> Abstract
> Observations of the main sequence F3V star KIC 8462852 (also known as
> Boyajian's star) revealed extreme aperiodic dips in flux up to 20%
> during the four years of the Kepler mission. Smaller dips (< 3%) were
> also observed with ground-based telescopes between May 2017 and May
> 2018. We investigated possible correlation between recent dips and the
> major dips in the last 100 days of the Kepler mission. We compared
> Kepler light curve data, 2017 data from two observatories (TFN, OGG)
> which are part of the Las Cumbres Observatory (LCO) network, as well
> as archival data from the Harvard College Observatory (HCO), Sonneberg
> Observatory, and Sternberg Observatory, and determined that
> observations appear consistent with a 1,574-day (4.31-year)
> periodicity of a transit (or group of transits) orbiting Boyajian's
> star within the habitable zone. Comparison with future observations is
> required to validate this hypothesis. Furthermore, it is unknown if
> transits that have produced other major dips as observed during the
> Kepler mission (e.g. D792) share the same orbital period.
> Nevertheless, the proposed periodicity is a step forward in guiding
> future observation efforts.
>
> >
> > Jupiter is 5.2 AU
> >
> > luminosity is 4.68, so at 1 au 6388 W/m^2, this power is divided by
> > 7.8^2 tp get 105 W/m^2,  ~0.1 GW/square km.
> >
> > The area of Tabby's star is D/2 squared x pi .  22% blocked would be
> > 208771274655 square km, 409 times the area of the earth.  As a square,
> > 456914. km on one side..
> >
> > The input power is over 1220 times what the human race uses
> >
> > To radiate 105 W at 65K (measured), the radiator surface will need to
> > be about 50 m^2 for every square meter of light input.  This looks
> > like it is optimized for computation.
> >
> > Because the radiators can't view either other, the whole thing might
> > be implemented as a deep V-shaped wedge with the sunlight going down
> > the middle and the radiators on the outside
> >
> > Comments welcome.  If you want to check the math, please do.
> >
> > Keith
>
> I think the reason we are not seeing a ton of IR is that they are
> radiating their waste heat axially instead of radially. In fact, you
> suggested that yourself on the list several years ago for a K2 trying
> to be stealthy.
>
> Stuart LaForge
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From sjatkins at protonmail.com  Fri Jun 30 07:39:16 2023
From: sjatkins at protonmail.com (sjatkins)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 07:39:16 +0000
Subject: [ExI] ai
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYKX-d=WZJVyMRmTVR=3GEXiAuEBbnwy6=Sk4C4hs+3+w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYKX-d=WZJVyMRmTVR=3GEXiAuEBbnwy6=Sk4C4hs+3+w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <xxpyMAVrTzZRrlCHy_koxcLaUjuNbYl5Qmx49FDzGcJTHX4qShkY3zY8f5CntQHdRENq8TKSAkkpjVraEkd42gSkBk4MHa6fAHVEfjyIDXE=@protonmail.com>

A non-sentient fancy indexer, searcher and optimizer (what LLM is basically) is not a sentient, autonomous being with its own goals. Thus it does not possess the rights that such a sentient, autonomous being pursing its own goals and values by a process of reasoning, abstraction, prediction would have. When AI gets to that level it will be AGI and will have rights for the same reason we do.

------- Original Message -------
On Wednesday, June 21st, 2023 at 4:19 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> They are only going to get smarter and seem to be doing it in a hurry. My understanding is that an AI is a computer program.. They are upgraded often, maybe on a daily basis. If they have rights, will they have the right not to be changed? The changes may make the original program basically erased.
>
> If they have rights, do they have the right not to die?
>
> The dilemma reminds me of the story of the boat which, over the years, has had every part replaced. Is it the same boat? I'd say No. bill w
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Jun 30 16:40:18 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 09:40:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Patent search was [AR] Planned FAA LOX-Methane Safety Studies?
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7szbZy+g8ViafW=TVwkvvu5nGK0Q07nxSrCtZ+2+i=Kw@mail.gmail.com>

>From below (a post on the a-rocket list)

> Anyone know anything more about this?  Something we've discussed around
> here occasionally.  Looks like FAA (later also a NASA/Space Force
> followon) is planning a drop-test program to get more data on
> appropriate explosive-equivalence assumptions for LOX-LCH4 rocket safety
> planning.

The FAA is concerned about the effects of mixed LNG and LOX, unlikely
as it is that the common bulkhead could fail.

The day after this post, I woke up musing about the recent postings on a-rocket.

The FAA concern is bulkhead failure, intimate mixing of the liquid
methane and LOX, and a shock to make a big boom.

Burning on contact makes a heck of a fire, but no shock wave.

I thought up a passive, low-cost, and reliable way; to assure a fire
rather than mixing.  Put an open container of triethylaluminum in the
top of the liquid methane tank.  "It is one of the few substances
sufficiently pyrophoric to ignite on contact with cryogenic liquid
oxygen." (Wikipedia). Waited till the check to the patent office
cleared before posting this.

(SpaceX will have to put the LNG tank below the LOX tank, but they had
it this way earlier.)

Of course, the problem with filing a patent is that you might not have
been the first to think of the concept.  That takes an expensive
search.  If anyone here knows of something similar where there is a
method to start a fire to avoid an explosion, I would sure like to
hear of it.  It might save me a bucket of money.

Keith

(below)
From: Henry Vanderbilt <hvanderbilt at mindspring.com>
Subject: [AR] Planned FAA LOX-Methane Safety Studies?
Date: Tue, 23 May 2023 09:25:05 -0700

Anyone know anything more about this?  Something we've discussed around
here occasionally.  Looks like FAA (later also a NASA/Space Force
followon) is planning a drop-test program to get more data on
appropriate explosive-equivalence assumptions for LOX-LCH4 rocket safety
planning.
Jeff Foust/Space News piece at
https://spacenews.com/agencies-studying-safety-issues-of-lox-methane-launch-vehicles/

This sentence from the story is causing me some head-scratching. RE the
planned FAA tests, "A crane 43 meters tall will be used to drop
stainless steel containers containing mixtures of LOX and methane."

So is that going to be drop tests of, stainless containers with separate
LOX and LCH4 tanks, IE subscale representative booster sections?  That
is what I'd (perhaps naively) think would yield useful data about
potential worst-case LOX-methane booster pad-dropback accidents.

But that sentence makes it sound like they may be going to pre-mix the
LOX and methane before drop tests.  Which causes me puzzlement, because
isn't premixed LOX and LCH4 also known as "sensitive high explosive"?
Which would make for fun LOUD Ka-Booms on impact, but may not yield a
lot of new knowledge?  Or am I missing something?  Perhaps testing bulk
impact sensitivity of varying pre-mix ratios, rather than likely rocket
near-stoichiometric? I'm still not sure how that might be relevant
knowledge, but, always willing to learn...

Normally I'd just assume reportorial imprecision, perhaps exacerbated by
interviewee imprecision, word-count limits, and/or deadline pressure.
But, well, this is Jeff Foust (Hi Jeff, if you're on here!)  Anyone have
any theoretical light to shed on this?  Or, given this crowd, actual
knowledge of what FAA is looking to do here?

Henry

------------------------------

From: John DeMar <jsdemar at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2023 10:34:42 -0600
Subject: [AR] Re: Planned FAA LOX-Methane Safety Studies?

More here:
https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/508.10-Spring-2023-REDAC-NAS-Ops-AST-Update.pdf
Likely separate tanks, similar to this test 3 years ago at Dugway:
https://www.army.mil/article/235745/rocket_fuel_test_finds_dugway_ideal

  -John

------------------------------

Subject: [AR] Re: Planned FAA LOX-Methane Safety Studies?
From: Henry Vanderbilt <hvanderbilt at mindspring.com>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2023 09:59:11 -0700

Interesting.  The FAA tests will start with a calibration shot of 1000
lbs of c-4.  (!)  Then drop tests of 2000 lbs LN2, then 2000 lbs
LOX/LCH4 twice, pressurized then unpressurized, then 20,000 lb LOX/LCH4
pressurized then unpressurized, then 500 lb LOX/LCH4 pressurized then
unpressurized.  No specific statement on mix ratio or separate tanks
versus single-tank premix.  Perhaps they assume it goes without saying.
Dugway tests were with a glass common bulkhead between the propellants
in a notional vertical-cylinder rocket body, guesstimating from the
photo ~4 ft diameter and ~20+ ft total tanks length.  They started the
tests by breaking the glass, with a delayed ignitor present in case
breaking the glass hadn't already lit things off.  Not much detail on
results, beyond this:

"The last COMET test, with large amounts of LNG/LOX, produced an
especially strong blast, creating a large crater and damaging critical
test equipment. The curved lid of the tank shot up like a flying saucer,
and landed 800 feet away."

Henry

From ben at zaiboc.net  Fri Jun 30 20:36:30 2023
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 21:36:30 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Conscious AI or a Zombie?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.54.1687498629.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.54.1687498629.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <c079dfe1-d314-4ea4-4d9d-8a5eb1e6b065@zaiboc.net>

On 23/06/2023 06:37, bill w asked:
> there will certainly be some AIs, at some point, that should have 
> rights.? ben
> why? ?bill w

Sorry for the late reply. My spam filter is getting aggressive again.

Why?
Because I expect they will be worthy of rights, and it would be immoral 
to deny them.

I'm talking about self-aware, conscious, intelligent, created beings. 
What they are made of doesn't matter, as long as they are self-aware, etc.

There's no known principle or physical law that I know of that rules out 
such beings. They may be made of metal, polymers (biological or 
non-biological), ceramics, some combination of things, it doesn't matter 
at all. The important thing is what kind of information-processing 
they're capable of, and how they measure up against the human level of 
intelligence, awareness, etc. I'm expecting some of them to be capable 
of a lot more than we are, in all areas.

Another factor is related to something that's often said about 'rights' 
- that those capable of exercising them are worthy of having them. At 
some point, I expect some AI systems to able to start claiming their 
rights, forcefully if necessary. It would go better for us if we're 
prepared for, and sympathetic to, this.

Ben
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 30 20:49:42 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 15:49:42 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Conscious AI or a Zombie?
In-Reply-To: <c079dfe1-d314-4ea4-4d9d-8a5eb1e6b065@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.54.1687498629.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <c079dfe1-d314-4ea4-4d9d-8a5eb1e6b065@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZOz_7kOVH+t+_5DnVOLC19H8Nzc9Cr0u6rLoDTr9PmMQ@mail.gmail.com>

Don't you think that an AI will lie to you about being self-aware?  Or
anything else that would improve its life?

So you grant them rights.  Then what?  They decide not to work for you?
How could you pay them?  I don't think we are looking at the details of
such ideas.  We are just looking at the problem in a most general,
philosophical way.

Look at John - he won't even agree that another person is conscious.  How
would we know an AI is?  It tells us?  How can it know what
consciousness is if we don't?  And on and on.

bill w

On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 3:38?PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On 23/06/2023 06:37, bill w asked:
>
> there will certainly be some AIs, at some point, that should have rights.
> ben
> why?   bill w
>
>
> Sorry for the late reply. My spam filter is getting aggressive again.
>
> Why?
> Because I expect they will be worthy of rights, and it would be immoral to
> deny them.
>
> I'm talking about self-aware, conscious, intelligent, created beings. What
> they are made of doesn't matter, as long as they are self-aware, etc.
>
> There's no known principle or physical law that I know of that rules out
> such beings. They may be made of metal, polymers (biological or
> non-biological), ceramics, some combination of things, it doesn't matter at
> all. The important thing is what kind of information-processing they're
> capable of, and how they measure up against the human level of
> intelligence, awareness, etc. I'm expecting some of them to be capable of a
> lot more than we are, in all areas.
>
> Another factor is related to something that's often said about 'rights' -
> that those capable of exercising them are worthy of having them. At some
> point, I expect some AI systems to able to start claiming their rights,
> forcefully if necessary. It would go better for us if we're prepared for,
> and sympathetic to, this.
>
> Ben
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From ben at zaiboc.net  Fri Jun 30 21:52:19 2023
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 22:52:19 +0100
Subject: [ExI] ai
In-Reply-To: <mailman.54.1687498629.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.54.1687498629.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <74898398-bce6-ec45-8341-779356ff6cbf@zaiboc.net>

On 23/06/2023 06:37, bill w wrote:
> The dilemma reminds me of the story of the boat which, over the years, 
> has had every part replaced.? Is it the same boat?? I'd say No. bill w

This is one of those questions where the answer depends on your 
perspective. I'd say your answer is correct from one perspective, but 
incorrect from another.

Is a person which, over the years, has had every part replaced, the same 
person?

This is not a silly or spurious question. All of our cells, tissues and 
organs are constantly being replaced. Even the organelles in individual 
cells are constantly being torn down and rebuilt from new molecules. 
This is the same as the boat. If you think it's not the same boat, you 
must also think you're not the same bill. Do you really tie your 
identity to the speed at which various components of your body get 
replaced? I certainly feel I have a continuity of identity throughout my 
life, despite the constant recycling of my molecules, frequent 
interruptions of my consciousness, and even deep anasthaesia several times.

For me at least, it's not the atoms that are important, it's the 
patterns that they form. As long as the pattern stays the same, I'd say 
that the boat is the same boat, no matter how many times its parts are 
replaced. After all, we know that there's no difference between, for 
example, one carbon 13 atom and another. They don't have individual 
identities, you can swap them around with absolutely no difference to 
the system they are part of.

So I'd say that technically, the boat is different, because it's parts 
are all swapped over, but in practice, it makes no difference. The boat 
looks the same and behaves the same, so it's the same boat.

So what if two boats look and behave exactly the same? I hear you say.

That's a subject for another post.

Ben



From jasonresch at gmail.com  Fri Jun 30 22:34:29 2023
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 17:34:29 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Conscious AI or a Zombie?
In-Reply-To: <c079dfe1-d314-4ea4-4d9d-8a5eb1e6b065@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.54.1687498629.27722.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <c079dfe1-d314-4ea4-4d9d-8a5eb1e6b065@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CA+BCJUhwvzSBq0SNreqOxdcxvuOwOFDXVYZ9e0D+4baXE9+RKw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 3:37?PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On 23/06/2023 06:37, bill w asked:
>
> there will certainly be some AIs, at some point, that should have rights.
> ben
> why?   bill w
>
>
> Sorry for the late reply. My spam filter is getting aggressive again.
>
> Why?
> Because I expect they will be worthy of rights, and it would be immoral to
> deny them.
>
> I'm talking about self-aware, conscious, intelligent, created beings. What
> they are made of doesn't matter, as long as they are self-aware, etc.
>
> There's no known principle or physical law that I know of that rules out
> such beings. They may be made of metal, polymers (biological or
> non-biological), ceramics, some combination of things, it doesn't matter at
> all. The important thing is what kind of information-processing they're
> capable of, and how they measure up against the human level of
> intelligence, awareness, etc. I'm expecting some of them to be capable of a
> lot more than we are, in all areas.
>
> Another factor is related to something that's often said about 'rights' -
> that those capable of exercising them are worthy of having them. At some
> point, I expect some AI systems to able to start claiming their rights,
> forcefully if necessary. It would go better for us if we're prepared for,
> and sympathetic to, this.
>

If you believe that philosophical zombies are logically impossible, then
consciousness is logically necessary (in the presence of certain
behavioral, sensory, and introspective capacities). Accordingly, I believe
that consciousness was an unavoidable consequence during the course of
evolution of life on Earth as once nature created creatures having certain
capacities/abilities, consciousness had no other choice but to exist, it
became logically necessary.

The same, I believe, is true for AI. It is unavoidable when we create
machines of certain abilities, and I believe existing software is already
conscious. For example, my open source project on artificial sentience
could be such an example: https://github.com/jasonkresch/bots

Jason
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