[ExI] What is "Elemental Redness"?

Brent Allsop brent.allsop at gmail.com
Thu May 4 17:51:43 UTC 2023


The way you talk about it seems to indicate you don't yet understand the
way representational theories predict consciousness works.
Have you seen the "Perceiving a Strawberry
<https://canonizer.com/videos/consciousness?chapter=perceiving+a+strawberry&format=360>"
chapter of our video?
There is the target of perception. (properties such that it reflects red
light)
There is also the final result of perception in the brain,
conscious knowledge made up of bound subjective qualities.





On Wed, May 3, 2023 at 10:06 PM Giovanni Santostasi <gsantostasi at gmail.com>
wrote:

> But I thought you said that redness is a "a direct apprehension", and I
> say the color illusions show they are not. We are saying opposite things if
> you claim that qualia are direct apprehensions.
> There is nothing direct about them. The illusion happens because the
> perception of redness is a complex phenomenon that can go wrong for many
> reasons. In a sense the color illusion is the "color inverter" that you
> proposed. The person still experiences the false color as red. Why? Because
> there is interpretation (and you claim qualia do not need interpretation)
> and the interpretation went badly wrong.
> So no we are not saying the same thing.
>
> On Wed, May 3, 2023 at 8:53 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi Giovani,
>> I'm not understanding what you are saying here.
>> It sounds like you and I are saying the same thing, so I'm not seeing, or
>> not understanding what, exactly, you are disagreeing with.
>> Am I not saying that illusions are examples of the mistakes that can
>> happen, the same thing you are talking about?
>>
>> And, this video is a summary of what the consensus camp is saying.  But
>> for Canonizer, what is far more important than the popular consensus, is
>> where are the mistakes in the current consensus.  Canonizer is specifically
>> designed to enable people seeing problems in the consensus camp, so they
>> can start a competing camp.  And may the best camp, achieve the most
>> consensus, as fast as possible.  One of the most important goals of
>> canonizer is to enable revolutionary ideas to change the popular consensus
>> as fast as possible.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, May 3, 2023 at 8:45 PM Giovanni Santostasi via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Brent,
>>> I click on the link you provided and immediately I see a still from the
>>> video that says "so it can be mistaken if not correctly interpreted". I
>>> gave you all the evidence in the world that this is exactly what happens
>>> with color illusions.
>>> How does your model of color account for this if it is not due to an
>>> error in interpretation?
>>> Please explain.
>>> Giovanni
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 3, 2023 at 7:34 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, May 2, 2023 at 8:31 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> What is the label for a person who thinks that "brain excitation
>>>>> causes experience" is wrong and that 'brain excitation IS experience'?
>>>>> bill w
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, May 2, 2023 at 7:56 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 02/05/2023 02:42, Jason Resch wrote:
>>>>>> > I don't follow why saying that "experience is" rather than
>>>>>> "experience
>>>>>> > is caused" escapes or answers the question of who is having the
>>>>>> > experience.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The 'who' is the neural pattern. This is the central point.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I suppose you could say "experience is caused by the neural pattern,
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> the neural pattern", but that might be more confusing. To me at
>>>>>> least,
>>>>>> it's clearer to say the experience and the neural pattern are the
>>>>>> same
>>>>>> thing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The point is to eliminate the dualism implicit in the language used.
>>>>>> It's not "my experience is caused by these neural patterns" (which
>>>>>> implies the question "what am I? What is it that these patterns cause
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> have the experience?"), it's "I am these neural patterns, having this
>>>>>> experience".
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Thank you Ben.  All the people that use terms that separate
>>>> consciousness from physical reality
>>>> <https://canonizer.com/videos/consciousness?chapter=differentiating+reality+and+knowledge+of+reality&format=360&t=400>
>>>> aren't much better than dualists
>>>> <https://canonizer.com/topic/88-Theories-of-Consciousness/48-Substance-Dualism>,
>>>> and non mind brain identity theorists
>>>> <https://canonizer.com/topic/88-Theories-of-Consciousness/17-Mind-Brain-Identity>,
>>>> in my current opinion.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> And no, that doesn't mean only patterns created by
>>>>>> biological neurons will do. Anything capable of producing the same
>>>>>> patterns will produce the same result: Me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ben
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>
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