[ExI] morality

William Flynn Wallace foozler83 at gmail.com
Thu May 18 17:18:44 UTC 2023


Agree, Ben.  With respect to respect, I respect everyone to begin with,
just for being human.  They have to lose my respect.  To get more respect
they have to earn it.  bill w

On Thu, May 18, 2023 at 12:12 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> On 18/05/2023 15:17, Brent Allsop wrote:
>
> How does the platinum rule breakdown *(sic)(you really mean "break down".
> This confused me for a while!)* when anyone is a masochist? Unless you
> are pointing out that the pleasure the masochist receives from damage to
> their body is incorrectly temptingly wired (damn whatever God wired them
> that way;) and not what they truly want?
>
>
>
> I must admit, the platinum rule does assume that people are responsible
> for themselves, and have the ability to decide if what they say they want
> is what they truly want, is what is best for them, etc.
>
> Too many formulations of morality seem to take the attitude that people
> should be 'made' to be happy, etc., that this is something that is imposed
> on them from outside.
>
> The case of a masochist is a good example of this. Who are you to judge
> that a masochist doesn't or 'shouldn't' want to be a masochist? That's up
> to them. The platinum rule doesn't break down for masochism, it holds up
> extremely well, in fact it highlights the essential difference between it
> and the golden rule.
>
> Using the golden rule is no better than basing your morality on what
> someone says that some god/s say/s, with the assumption that said god/s
> know/s what's best for everyone, regardless of what the individuals that
> make up 'everyone' think or want. It is, quite simply, tyranny.
>
> To me, morality should be something that comes from you, not from someone
> else. So it's not about 'making people' happy, or whatever, it's about
> letting them be happy (or whatever they want to be).
>
> The point is that the golden rule is about how you think you should treat
> people, the platinum rule is about how they think they should be treated
> (or, more importantly, how they think they should not be treated). As I
> said before, this has it's limits. I can't claim that you are being immoral
> because you refuse to give me all your money if that's what I want. That's
> why I combine it with the Wiccan Rede. I can claim you are being immoral if
> you lock me up in a cellar and beat me 'for my own good' for being gay, or
> ginger or a vegetarian or whatever else might be contrary to your values.
>
> Billw wrote:
> "So you are saying that to be moral, I have to find out what other people
> want and give it to them. Nope. Won't work."
>
> No, it's not up to you to find out what other people want (unless you want
> to, or you want to give them something that they'll like. Naturally, in
> that case, some research is warranted).
>
> It's up to you to do whatever you want to do, only checking first that it
> won't harm anyone else (and by harm, I mean actually harm, not offend or
> hurt their feelings. This is not an excuse to prevent people from telling
> Irish jokes).
>
> In order for people to follow a moral code, they first have to be capable
> of taking responsibility for their own feelings and other mental states.
> You have the right to be offended, but you don't have the right to demand
> that nobody offends you. You have the right to be upset that someone
> doesn't respect you, but you don't have the right to demand respect (which
> is something that has to be earned).
>
> The platinum rule, unlike the golden rule, just means that you don't
> impose your own values on other people. When Jesus decides to do something
> nice for Mo, and cook him dinner, then yes, he should first find out
> whether Mo likes corned beef hash (as that is what Jesus wants to cook).
> That just makes sense. The golden rule leads you to buying your wife a
> bowling ball for an anniversary present.
>
> "The Wiccan Rede apparently is just a statement of the writings of John
> Stuart Mill in 'On Liberty'"
>
> Yes it is. It's a good, concise summary of probably the most important
> idea in there.
>
> Ben
>
>
>
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