From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Apr  1 00:07:34 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2024 17:07:34 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fortified homes and bomb shelters
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnBDYeLJtHexWTpjuxGuohWYFsshHUZoCK1Xr+WE9Vsv4A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjUc3KKYa0+z40uVH8nY4aPS6eRVM+bVUooT69NH9W_aw@mail.gmail.com>
 <003f01da72ef$e62fe660$b28fb320$@rainier66.com>
 <CACBESnBDYeLJtHexWTpjuxGuohWYFsshHUZoCK1Xr+WE9Vsv4A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006f01da83c8$99e17b40$cda471c0$@rainier66.com>


...> On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat
Cc: Kelly Anderson <postmowoods at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Fortified homes and bomb shelters

On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 7:36?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>... Humanity will survive a singularity in my thinking.
> It will reset everything, but humanity will be again ready to radiate 
> out of sub Saharan Africa and do it all again.
>
> spike

>...While this initially seems logical, the second unfolding (if indeed it has not occurred before, something very difficult to completely
discount) would be radically different in many aspects. While some things can be fairly easily repeated like the stone age, wood working and writing, perhaps leading to paper making... some technologies cannot be easily repeated. An important example of this is the fact that all easily accessible fossil fuels and easily mined copper and gold have been expended, so a second rise of technology would have to somehow create sustainable energy de-novo without the crutch of fossil fuels. It is hard to see how to do this without a surviving library from our period at the very least. Perhaps they could somehow skip to a new metal age using the scraps of our civilization, but it would be very difficult to solve the fuel issues for such a second technical or scientific radiation.

-Kelly

_______________________________________________



Agree.  So much readily-available coal was burned up by this radiation, it would be difficult to re-create the iron age.  Not impossible really.  But we moderns really lived it up on the earth's stored energy.

I have a notion that some highly-educated moderns would survive a singularity as well, not many.  But plenty of people are looking at where we are and making doomsday preparations.  Those who have enough land, stored food and ammo might be able to make it thru, educate the other survivors with enough to jump start technological civilization.

Sooner or later, we must transition to nuclear fusion power however.  It appears to be making a gradual comeback, but not quickly enough.  The greens have warmed up to the idea, because it produces energy without emitting CO2.

spike



From efc at swisscows.email  Mon Apr  1 08:32:57 2024
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2024 10:32:57 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Communications a Moore's Law Phenomenon?
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnAe+3Y8=54GWkYPv4J3X8fFQ8N0v70S8pr4s5tCX2wmTQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnDa9QeEGaPnywKNO--7xGQ8yBwC2NWmNXia-SL06amduw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdb+RqqZqHTpOjtOEbhP-bs=qi5_JS_cih+C6BV+U_dZw7A@mail.gmail.com>
 <b3725ef4-1ff6-4857-82d9-e290ee19ffc3@swisscows.email>
 <CACBESnCXZQqZnew4QwtYG5m9K42SyiPcdObZQr0vQ4y318m65A@mail.gmail.com>
 <051a9185-08f0-d12b-97b6-96cdec939653@swisscows.email>
 <CACBESnAe+3Y8=54GWkYPv4J3X8fFQ8N0v70S8pr4s5tCX2wmTQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <59c0afde-3b93-801c-786d-eacc47efb174@swisscows.email>



On Sun, 31 Mar 2024, Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat wrote:

>> I no longer get 250-300 emails per day, so today I do glance through
>> mail manually when deciding which ones to work on and reply to first.
>> But nice concept though, not even having to do that. =)
>
> The idea was based on my watching people dealing with spam back in the
> day. They would spend the first few minutes with their email client
> deleting spam, and only then would they start reading the good stuff.
> I don't think spam is as much of an issue now. Not sure if AI has
> anything to do with that, or the reduction in the importance of email
> in an SMS kind of world. I get way more Spam on SMS than I do in email
> now.

Ahh... the sms riddle! This is a huge difference between europe and the
US. I almost never get sms spam. Maybe once or twice per year. And I
have heard that in the US there's enormous amounts of robo calls and sms
spam which almost makes the phone unusable for some people.

>
> -Kelly
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Apr  1 14:13:50 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2024 07:13:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Communications a Moore's Law Phenomenon?
In-Reply-To: <59c0afde-3b93-801c-786d-eacc47efb174@swisscows.email>
References: <CACBESnDa9QeEGaPnywKNO--7xGQ8yBwC2NWmNXia-SL06amduw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdb+RqqZqHTpOjtOEbhP-bs=qi5_JS_cih+C6BV+U_dZw7A@mail.gmail.com>
 <b3725ef4-1ff6-4857-82d9-e290ee19ffc3@swisscows.email>
 <CACBESnCXZQqZnew4QwtYG5m9K42SyiPcdObZQr0vQ4y318m65A@mail.gmail.com>
 <051a9185-08f0-d12b-97b6-96cdec939653@swisscows.email>
 <CACBESnAe+3Y8=54GWkYPv4J3X8fFQ8N0v70S8pr4s5tCX2wmTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <59c0afde-3b93-801c-786d-eacc47efb174@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSRinL6dvRonNDvAgdsn7TTBaRiAWjr=6R4L8F4X12tVA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 1, 2024, 1:34?AM efc--- via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I
> have heard that in the US there's enormous amounts of robo calls and sms
> spam which almost makes the phone unusable for some people.
>

One anecdote for that: later this month, we plan to finally permanently
disconnect our landline, and discatd the associated phone number, that has
served our family since - I think - a little prior to 1990.  One of the
reasons is that it has become bombarded by spam, in particular calls where
there is no one (or at least, no one speaking up) on the other end.  Only a
minority of calls are even arguably legitimate: an actual person who's not
a telemarketer, or a robocall from an allowed source (such as an
appointment reminder).

...and in the middle of composing this, I got another spam call: someone
who asked for another member of my household, and who hung up when I asked
them to identify themselves.

>
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From postmowoods at gmail.com  Mon Apr  1 18:09:12 2024
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2024 12:09:12 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Communications a Moore's Law Phenomenon?
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSRinL6dvRonNDvAgdsn7TTBaRiAWjr=6R4L8F4X12tVA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnDa9QeEGaPnywKNO--7xGQ8yBwC2NWmNXia-SL06amduw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdb+RqqZqHTpOjtOEbhP-bs=qi5_JS_cih+C6BV+U_dZw7A@mail.gmail.com>
 <b3725ef4-1ff6-4857-82d9-e290ee19ffc3@swisscows.email>
 <CACBESnCXZQqZnew4QwtYG5m9K42SyiPcdObZQr0vQ4y318m65A@mail.gmail.com>
 <051a9185-08f0-d12b-97b6-96cdec939653@swisscows.email>
 <CACBESnAe+3Y8=54GWkYPv4J3X8fFQ8N0v70S8pr4s5tCX2wmTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <59c0afde-3b93-801c-786d-eacc47efb174@swisscows.email>
 <CALAdGNSRinL6dvRonNDvAgdsn7TTBaRiAWjr=6R4L8F4X12tVA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACBESnBukDjLm8QqWb-JDCctRSrnD5eZNnKa0-OF9=KOUNPmZA@mail.gmail.com>

I haven't had a landline for perhaps 20 years now.

-Kelly

On Mon, Apr 1, 2024 at 8:14?AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Apr 1, 2024, 1:34?AM efc--- via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> I
>> have heard that in the US there's enormous amounts of robo calls and sms
>> spam which almost makes the phone unusable for some people.
>
>
> One anecdote for that: later this month, we plan to finally permanently disconnect our landline, and discatd the associated phone number, that has served our family since - I think - a little prior to 1990.  One of the reasons is that it has become bombarded by spam, in particular calls where there is no one (or at least, no one speaking up) on the other end.  Only a minority of calls are even arguably legitimate: an actual person who's not a telemarketer, or a robocall from an allowed source (such as an appointment reminder).
>
> ...and in the middle of composing this, I got another spam call: someone who asked for another member of my household, and who hung up when I asked them to identify themselves.
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From avant at sollegro.com  Mon Apr  1 19:36:41 2024
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2024 12:36:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Environmentalists hate this one simple trick
Message-ID: <5e2eec78c6ecaec9e0455bf0ea5af7bf@sollegro.com>

https://i.imgur.com/Ljfr3If.gifv

;)

Stuart LaForge

From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Apr  1 19:41:01 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2024 12:41:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Environmentalists hate this one simple trick
In-Reply-To: <5e2eec78c6ecaec9e0455bf0ea5af7bf@sollegro.com>
References: <5e2eec78c6ecaec9e0455bf0ea5af7bf@sollegro.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQ4wXOTGKLfJKCas_auu=vyc4Vo=4n3Lt28g4SVu8dubg@mail.gmail.com>

"But clearly someone MADE the elephant do that!  They're the ones who can
and should be punished!"

...and then, with the presumption that there is a guilty party, kangaroo
court whoever's convenient.

On Mon, Apr 1, 2024 at 12:38?PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> https://i.imgur.com/Ljfr3If.gifv
>
> ;)
>
> Stuart LaForge
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From efc at swisscows.email  Mon Apr  1 20:37:27 2024
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2024 22:37:27 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Communications a Moore's Law Phenomenon?
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSRinL6dvRonNDvAgdsn7TTBaRiAWjr=6R4L8F4X12tVA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnDa9QeEGaPnywKNO--7xGQ8yBwC2NWmNXia-SL06amduw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdb+RqqZqHTpOjtOEbhP-bs=qi5_JS_cih+C6BV+U_dZw7A@mail.gmail.com>
 <b3725ef4-1ff6-4857-82d9-e290ee19ffc3@swisscows.email>
 <CACBESnCXZQqZnew4QwtYG5m9K42SyiPcdObZQr0vQ4y318m65A@mail.gmail.com>
 <051a9185-08f0-d12b-97b6-96cdec939653@swisscows.email>
 <CACBESnAe+3Y8=54GWkYPv4J3X8fFQ8N0v70S8pr4s5tCX2wmTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <59c0afde-3b93-801c-786d-eacc47efb174@swisscows.email>
 <CALAdGNSRinL6dvRonNDvAgdsn7TTBaRiAWjr=6R4L8F4X12tVA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4b32879e-8d4b-1030-ca87-160ca0cb9970@swisscows.email>



On Mon, 1 Apr 2024, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 1, 2024, 1:34?AM efc--- via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>       I
>       have heard that in the US there's enormous amounts of robo calls and sms
>       spam which almost makes the phone unusable for some people.
> 
> 
> One anecdote for that: later this month, we plan to finally permanently disconnect our landline, and discatd the associated phone
> number, that has served our family since - I think - a little prior to 1990.? One of the reasons is that it has become bombarded by
> spam, in particular calls where there is no one (or at least, no one speaking up) on the other end.? Only a minority of calls are
> even arguably legitimate: an actual person who's not a telemarketer, or a robocall from an allowed source (such as an appointment
> reminder).
> 
> ...and in the middle of composing this, I got another spam call: someone who asked for another member of my household, and who hung
> up when I asked them to identify themselves.

Wow... such a huge difference between the US and Sweden. I imagine that 
people would move to using white lists only with that being so common.

From efc at swisscows.email  Mon Apr  1 20:38:08 2024
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2024 22:38:08 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Environmentalists hate this one simple trick
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQ4wXOTGKLfJKCas_auu=vyc4Vo=4n3Lt28g4SVu8dubg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5e2eec78c6ecaec9e0455bf0ea5af7bf@sollegro.com>
 <CALAdGNQ4wXOTGKLfJKCas_auu=vyc4Vo=4n3Lt28g4SVu8dubg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2714bf69-a8dd-b5da-6553-67b064987aeb@swisscows.email>

Image no longer available. =(

On Mon, 1 Apr 2024, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote:

> "But clearly someone MADE the elephant do that!? They're the ones who can and should be punished!"
> ...and then, with the presumption that there is a guilty party, kangaroo court whoever's convenient.
> 
> On Mon, Apr 1, 2024 at 12:38?PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>       https://i.imgur.com/Ljfr3If.gifv
>
>       ;)
>
>       Stuart LaForge
>       _______________________________________________
>       extropy-chat mailing list
>       extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>       http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 
> 
>

From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Apr  1 20:45:16 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2024 13:45:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Communications a Moore's Law Phenomenon?
In-Reply-To: <4b32879e-8d4b-1030-ca87-160ca0cb9970@swisscows.email>
References: <CACBESnDa9QeEGaPnywKNO--7xGQ8yBwC2NWmNXia-SL06amduw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdb+RqqZqHTpOjtOEbhP-bs=qi5_JS_cih+C6BV+U_dZw7A@mail.gmail.com>
 <b3725ef4-1ff6-4857-82d9-e290ee19ffc3@swisscows.email>
 <CACBESnCXZQqZnew4QwtYG5m9K42SyiPcdObZQr0vQ4y318m65A@mail.gmail.com>
 <051a9185-08f0-d12b-97b6-96cdec939653@swisscows.email>
 <CACBESnAe+3Y8=54GWkYPv4J3X8fFQ8N0v70S8pr4s5tCX2wmTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <59c0afde-3b93-801c-786d-eacc47efb174@swisscows.email>
 <CALAdGNSRinL6dvRonNDvAgdsn7TTBaRiAWjr=6R4L8F4X12tVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4b32879e-8d4b-1030-ca87-160ca0cb9970@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRT8bZWV=ih=w8OJ1o1+03B3uf8dKQEGoTkdCWs1Wphdw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 1, 2024 at 1:39?PM efc--- via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Wow... such a huge difference between the US and Sweden. I imagine that
> people would move to using white lists only with that being so common.
>

Some people try.  Unfortunately, due to how the phone systems in North
America work (including needing to coordinate with Canada, Mexico, and the
Caribbean states: it's the North American Numbering Plan), caller ID
spoofing is a routine thing for telemarketers, trying to appear as phone
numbers they suspect are on the approved lists.  To fix this would require
a level of law enforcement that would be possible in the US and Canada, but
has proven infeasible in several of the other nations.  (And then there's
political influence from the marketing associations, but I understand the
law enforcement angle is a less immediately solvable component.)
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From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Apr  1 20:46:01 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2024 13:46:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Environmentalists hate this one simple trick
In-Reply-To: <2714bf69-a8dd-b5da-6553-67b064987aeb@swisscows.email>
References: <5e2eec78c6ecaec9e0455bf0ea5af7bf@sollegro.com>
 <CALAdGNQ4wXOTGKLfJKCas_auu=vyc4Vo=4n3Lt28g4SVu8dubg@mail.gmail.com>
 <2714bf69-a8dd-b5da-6553-67b064987aeb@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRt7U9rQoW306E3XCq9oVEh7=uLHSQTGPaQMTHp-Er5ww@mail.gmail.com>

It's an elephant using its trunk to take down a leafless tree.

On Mon, Apr 1, 2024 at 1:39?PM efc--- via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Image no longer available. =(
>
> On Mon, 1 Apr 2024, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote:
>
> > "But clearly someone MADE the elephant do that!  They're the ones who
> can and should be punished!"
> > ...and then, with the presumption that there is a guilty party, kangaroo
> court whoever's convenient.
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 1, 2024 at 12:38?PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >       https://i.imgur.com/Ljfr3If.gifv
> >
> >       ;)
> >
> >       Stuart LaForge
> >       _______________________________________________
> >       extropy-chat mailing list
> >       extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >       http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Mon Apr  1 20:49:38 2024
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2024 16:49:38 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Communications a Moore's Law Phenomenon?
In-Reply-To: <4b32879e-8d4b-1030-ca87-160ca0cb9970@swisscows.email>
References: <CACBESnDa9QeEGaPnywKNO--7xGQ8yBwC2NWmNXia-SL06amduw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdb+RqqZqHTpOjtOEbhP-bs=qi5_JS_cih+C6BV+U_dZw7A@mail.gmail.com>
 <b3725ef4-1ff6-4857-82d9-e290ee19ffc3@swisscows.email>
 <CACBESnCXZQqZnew4QwtYG5m9K42SyiPcdObZQr0vQ4y318m65A@mail.gmail.com>
 <051a9185-08f0-d12b-97b6-96cdec939653@swisscows.email>
 <CACBESnAe+3Y8=54GWkYPv4J3X8fFQ8N0v70S8pr4s5tCX2wmTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <59c0afde-3b93-801c-786d-eacc47efb174@swisscows.email>
 <CALAdGNSRinL6dvRonNDvAgdsn7TTBaRiAWjr=6R4L8F4X12tVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4b32879e-8d4b-1030-ca87-160ca0cb9970@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <3fe8c570c367e861e032d8b2b5c9a405.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>

Without a landline I have no phone service here. So I have an old
answering machine which screens *all* my calls.  Most are silent hangups,
no message.  My people know to yell into the machine, "Hey MB, are you
there? It's me!" My version of "White List". :)

Of course this year will be horrid, it's an election year.  The calls
before the Primary were back to back.  I ignored them.

The one good thing about an old wired-in landline is that it does not seem
to transmit a virus. :)  Also it works when the power goes out, which it
does here (not as much as it used to).

Regards,
MB

On Mon, April 1, 2024 16:37, efc--- via extropy-chat wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, 1 Apr 2024, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Apr 1, 2024, 1:34?AM efc--- via extropy-chat
>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>       I
>>       have heard that in the US there's enormous amounts of robo calls
>> and sms
>>       spam which almost makes the phone unusable for some people.
>>
>>
>> One anecdote for that: later this month, we plan to finally permanently
>> disconnect our landline, and discatd the associated phone
>> number, that has served our family since - I think - a little prior to
>> 1990.? One of the reasons is that it has become bombarded by
>> spam, in particular calls where there is no one (or at least, no one
>> speaking up) on the other end.? Only a minority of calls are
>> even arguably legitimate: an actual person who's not a telemarketer, or
>> a robocall from an allowed source (such as an appointment
>> reminder).
>>
>> ...and in the middle of composing this, I got another spam call: someone
>> who asked for another member of my household, and who hung
>> up when I asked them to identify themselves.
>
> Wow... such a huge difference between the US and Sweden. I imagine that
> people would move to using white lists only with that being so
> common.

From avant at sollegro.com  Mon Apr  1 20:56:23 2024
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2024 13:56:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Environmentalists hate this one simple trick
In-Reply-To: <2714bf69-a8dd-b5da-6553-67b064987aeb@swisscows.email>
References: <5e2eec78c6ecaec9e0455bf0ea5af7bf@sollegro.com>
 <CALAdGNQ4wXOTGKLfJKCas_auu=vyc4Vo=4n3Lt28g4SVu8dubg@mail.gmail.com>
 <2714bf69-a8dd-b5da-6553-67b064987aeb@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <24d498f793b0c5d8a610a74db76410c3@sollegro.com>

On 2024-04-01 13:38, efc--- via extropy-chat wrote:
> Image no longer available. =(


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ki7mkAIWS8

Same trick, different day. :)

Stuart LaForge







> On Mon, 1 Apr 2024, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote:
> 
>> "But clearly someone MADE the elephant do that!? They're the ones who 
>> can and should be punished!"
>> ...and then, with the presumption that there is a guilty party, 
>> kangaroo court whoever's convenient.
>> 
>> On Mon, Apr 1, 2024 at 12:38?PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat 
>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>       https://i.imgur.com/Ljfr3If.gifv
>> 
>>       ;)
>> 
>>       Stuart LaForge
>>       _______________________________________________
>>       extropy-chat mailing list
>>       extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>       http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> 
>> 
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

From postmowoods at gmail.com  Mon Apr  1 21:34:59 2024
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2024 15:34:59 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Communications a Moore's Law Phenomenon?
In-Reply-To: <3fe8c570c367e861e032d8b2b5c9a405.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
References: <CACBESnDa9QeEGaPnywKNO--7xGQ8yBwC2NWmNXia-SL06amduw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdb+RqqZqHTpOjtOEbhP-bs=qi5_JS_cih+C6BV+U_dZw7A@mail.gmail.com>
 <b3725ef4-1ff6-4857-82d9-e290ee19ffc3@swisscows.email>
 <CACBESnCXZQqZnew4QwtYG5m9K42SyiPcdObZQr0vQ4y318m65A@mail.gmail.com>
 <051a9185-08f0-d12b-97b6-96cdec939653@swisscows.email>
 <CACBESnAe+3Y8=54GWkYPv4J3X8fFQ8N0v70S8pr4s5tCX2wmTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <59c0afde-3b93-801c-786d-eacc47efb174@swisscows.email>
 <CALAdGNSRinL6dvRonNDvAgdsn7TTBaRiAWjr=6R4L8F4X12tVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4b32879e-8d4b-1030-ca87-160ca0cb9970@swisscows.email>
 <3fe8c570c367e861e032d8b2b5c9a405.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <CACBESnAp8AtwgT4J2FF2n+_jHm5xV9eBsSHQS_2g1XR5H8Gh7w@mail.gmail.com>

I can see a company creating an AI driven phone for screening calls
acting like a secretary for an old time big wig as a product with some
wings in today's environment. Too bad that I'm too busy to build such
a company. Seems like an easy device to put together.

-Kelly

On Mon, Apr 1, 2024 at 2:51?PM MB via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Without a landline I have no phone service here. So I have an old
> answering machine which screens *all* my calls.  Most are silent hangups,
> no message.  My people know to yell into the machine, "Hey MB, are you
> there? It's me!" My version of "White List". :)
>
> Of course this year will be horrid, it's an election year.  The calls
> before the Primary were back to back.  I ignored them.
>
> The one good thing about an old wired-in landline is that it does not seem
> to transmit a virus. :)  Also it works when the power goes out, which it
> does here (not as much as it used to).
>
> Regards,
> MB
>
> On Mon, April 1, 2024 16:37, efc--- via extropy-chat wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 1 Apr 2024, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, Apr 1, 2024, 1:34?AM efc--- via extropy-chat
> >> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >>       I
> >>       have heard that in the US there's enormous amounts of robo calls
> >> and sms
> >>       spam which almost makes the phone unusable for some people.
> >>
> >>
> >> One anecdote for that: later this month, we plan to finally permanently
> >> disconnect our landline, and discatd the associated phone
> >> number, that has served our family since - I think - a little prior to
> >> 1990.  One of the reasons is that it has become bombarded by
> >> spam, in particular calls where there is no one (or at least, no one
> >> speaking up) on the other end.  Only a minority of calls are
> >> even arguably legitimate: an actual person who's not a telemarketer, or
> >> a robocall from an allowed source (such as an appointment
> >> reminder).
> >>
> >> ...and in the middle of composing this, I got another spam call: someone
> >> who asked for another member of my household, and who hung
> >> up when I asked them to identify themselves.
> >
> > Wow... such a huge difference between the US and Sweden. I imagine that
> > people would move to using white lists only with that being so
> > common.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Apr  1 21:57:00 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2024 22:57:00 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Communications a Moore's Law Phenomenon?
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnAp8AtwgT4J2FF2n+_jHm5xV9eBsSHQS_2g1XR5H8Gh7w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnDa9QeEGaPnywKNO--7xGQ8yBwC2NWmNXia-SL06amduw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdb+RqqZqHTpOjtOEbhP-bs=qi5_JS_cih+C6BV+U_dZw7A@mail.gmail.com>
 <b3725ef4-1ff6-4857-82d9-e290ee19ffc3@swisscows.email>
 <CACBESnCXZQqZnew4QwtYG5m9K42SyiPcdObZQr0vQ4y318m65A@mail.gmail.com>
 <051a9185-08f0-d12b-97b6-96cdec939653@swisscows.email>
 <CACBESnAe+3Y8=54GWkYPv4J3X8fFQ8N0v70S8pr4s5tCX2wmTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <59c0afde-3b93-801c-786d-eacc47efb174@swisscows.email>
 <CALAdGNSRinL6dvRonNDvAgdsn7TTBaRiAWjr=6R4L8F4X12tVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4b32879e-8d4b-1030-ca87-160ca0cb9970@swisscows.email>
 <3fe8c570c367e861e032d8b2b5c9a405.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CACBESnAp8AtwgT4J2FF2n+_jHm5xV9eBsSHQS_2g1XR5H8Gh7w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armikqhq6z3a_4Y+w1cnunOXw95bdYSxE-fcg968eXUs73Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 1 Apr 2024 at 22:37, Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I can see a company creating an AI driven phone for screening calls
> acting like a secretary for an old time big wig as a product with some
> wings in today's environment. Too bad that I'm too busy to build such
> a company. Seems like an easy device to put together.
>
> -Kelly
>
-------------------------------------

No sooner said than done!  :)
Just ask an AI.......
BillK

# Researching
Searching for **Benefits of using AI Call Assistant in screening calls**
Searching for **AI Call Assistant and Screener technology**
Searching for **Companies offering AI Call Assistant and Screener services**

# Comprehensive Research Report on AI Call Assistant & Screener

## Introduction
AI Call Assistants and Screeners are innovative solutions designed to
manage and filter phone calls using artificial intelligence. These tools
are becoming increasingly popular for both personal and business use,
offering a range of features that enhance call management, improve
productivity, and protect users from unwanted communications.

## AI Call Assistant Features and Benefits

### Call Screening and Spam Blocking
AI Call Assistants are equipped with the capability to screen incoming
calls, distinguishing between legitimate calls and potential spam or scam
communications. These assistants can automatically block known spam callers
and screen calls using AI-powered mechanisms that understand spam and
telemarketer calling patterns. This feature saves users time and hassle by
filtering out unwanted calls.

### Real-Time Call Management
Users can allow the AI Call Assistant to take calls on their behalf,
providing the ability to read what the caller is saying in real-time. This
enables users to make informed decisions about whether to engage in a
conversation without directly interacting with unknown or potentially
unwanted callers.

### Advanced Call Handling Features
AI Call Assistants offer a suite of advanced features such as call
blocking, hold music, voicemail services, and smart scheduling. For
instance, when a user's calendar is marked as busy, the app can play a
pre-configured message to inform callers of the user's unavailability. This
integration with calendars makes the app an essential tool for managing
calls and appointments efficiently.

### Business Applications
For businesses, AI Call Assistants serve as a frontline customer service
tool, capable of handling a high volume of calls simultaneously, which
ensures customers do not experience long wait times. These assistants are
cost-effective, reducing the need for a large customer service team, and
are highly scalable to meet the demands of growing businesses.

### Streamlining Business Operations
AI phone assistants can be set up quickly to streamline calls, schedule
appointments, manage quote requests, and handle a variety of other tasks
such as bookings, call forwarding, and message taking. They can be
integrated seamlessly into existing business workflows, enhancing service
and driving revenue. Additionally, these assistants can be trained with
custom skills tailored to specific customer needs and can trigger
automation templates to optimize business workflows.

### Google's Pixel Call Assist
Google has also introduced its own version of an AI Call Assistant with the
Pixel Call Assist, which uses Google Assistant as a personal call screener.
It features Duplex technology to transcribe menu options and can filter and
decline robocalls in the background.

### AI Solutions for Call Centers
AI-powered solutions like Invoca offer features such as automated call
scoring, intelligent call routing, and post-call summaries for call
centers. These solutions enhance customer satisfaction, provide actionable
insights to improve operations, and increase agent productivity. Invoca's
AI analyzes conversations to identify trends and integrates seamlessly with
existing software tools.

## Conclusion
AI Call Assistants and Screeners represent a significant advancement in
communication technology, offering a multitude of features that cater to
both individual and business needs. They provide efficient call management,
protect against unwanted calls, and streamline business operations, all
while being cost-effective and scalable. As AI technology continues to
evolve, these tools are set to revolutionize the way we handle phone calls,
making them an indispensable asset for modern communication.
-----------------------------
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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Apr  1 23:01:11 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2024 00:01:11 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Communications a Moore's Law Phenomenon?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armikqhq6z3a_4Y+w1cnunOXw95bdYSxE-fcg968eXUs73Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnDa9QeEGaPnywKNO--7xGQ8yBwC2NWmNXia-SL06amduw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdb+RqqZqHTpOjtOEbhP-bs=qi5_JS_cih+C6BV+U_dZw7A@mail.gmail.com>
 <b3725ef4-1ff6-4857-82d9-e290ee19ffc3@swisscows.email>
 <CACBESnCXZQqZnew4QwtYG5m9K42SyiPcdObZQr0vQ4y318m65A@mail.gmail.com>
 <051a9185-08f0-d12b-97b6-96cdec939653@swisscows.email>
 <CACBESnAe+3Y8=54GWkYPv4J3X8fFQ8N0v70S8pr4s5tCX2wmTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <59c0afde-3b93-801c-786d-eacc47efb174@swisscows.email>
 <CALAdGNSRinL6dvRonNDvAgdsn7TTBaRiAWjr=6R4L8F4X12tVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4b32879e-8d4b-1030-ca87-160ca0cb9970@swisscows.email>
 <3fe8c570c367e861e032d8b2b5c9a405.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CACBESnAp8AtwgT4J2FF2n+_jHm5xV9eBsSHQS_2g1XR5H8Gh7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armikqhq6z3a_4Y+w1cnunOXw95bdYSxE-fcg968eXUs73Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgnHLtQNKUnzLU6y0o+qJvQj=UKwc8jBXenugzYhrBmJw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 1 Apr 2024 at 22:57, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> # Comprehensive Research Report on AI Call Assistant & Screener
>
> -----------------------------
>

I followed up with the question -
How advanced is the AI technology for phone call assistant and screener?
The tech seems to be pretty impressive now.
BillK

# Researching
Searching for **Latest advancements in AI technology for phone call
assistant and screener**
Searching for **Innovations in AI for call screening and assistant
technology**
Searching for **State-of-the-art AI features in phone call management and
screening tools**


# Comprehensive Research Report on AI Technology for Phone Call Assistant
and Screener

## Introduction

The integration of AI technology into phone call assistants and screeners
has significantly advanced, offering sophisticated features that enhance
call management and user experience. This report synthesizes key points
from various sources to provide an overview of the current state of AI in
this field.

## Advancements in AI Call Assistant and Screener Technology

### Enhanced Call Screening Capabilities

AI Call Assistants now come with an Auto-Screen feature that proactively
identifies and diverts unwanted calls to voicemail, thus eliminating the
hassle of dealing with spam or scam calls. Truecaller's AI assistance
utilizes machine learning, speech-to-text, and natural language processing
to screen calls, providing users with a transcription of the call and the
option to respond accordingly.

### Interactive Secretary Mode

The Secretary Mode takes call screening a step further by engaging with
callers to collect essential information such as the caller's name and the
purpose of the call before the user decides to take over. This mode
enhances user control over call experiences and maximizes productivity by
minimizing distractions.

### Real-Time Call Management and Transcription

Users can have their calls managed in real-time by the AI Call Assistant,
allowing them to read what the caller is saying as it happens and make
informed decisions about whether to answer. This feature is complemented by
a sophisticated voicemail system that offers functionalities like
listening, sharing, or downloading voicemails.

### Smart Scheduling and Calendar Integration

AI-powered assistants can interact with callers to reschedule appointments
according to the user's available time slots, ensuring efficient calendar
management without double-booking or missing appointments. The integration
with user calendars allows the app to inform callers when the user is busy,
preventing interruptions during important tasks.

### Customizable Features and Seamless Integration

Call Assistant AI offers customizable features and seamless integration
with other services, allowing users to personalize their experience and
manage calls more effectively. Users can also block calls from selected
numbers and let the AI automatically block numbers marked as spam.

### State-of-the-Art Speech Recognition and Analysis

AI technology for call assistants is built on advanced speech recognition
models that can transcribe meetings in real-time, track keywords, detect
customer sentiment, and distinguish between speakers in a transcript.
Dialpad Ai, for example, uses NLP to analyze customer conversations in
real-time and improves over time with built-in machine learning.

### AI Innovations in Emergency Communications

AI enhancements in emergency communications centers provide instant
recommendations for call prioritization and support call takers with
precision, reshaping public safety by incorporating AI into emergency
response protocols.

### Future AI-Powered Tools and Features in Call Centers

AI-driven voice assistants and chatbots are set to become more capable,
with sentiment analysis tools and predictive analytics enhancing call
center operations. Intelligent call routing and real-time speech analytics
will provide on-the-spot insights, while AI's predictive capabilities will
improve workforce management.

## Conclusion

AI technology for phone call assistants and screeners has reached an
advanced stage, offering a range of features that streamline call
management, enhance user productivity, and provide real-time assistance.
With continuous improvements in speech recognition, natural language
processing, and machine learning, AI call assistants and screeners are
transforming communication, offering personalized experiences, and
improving efficiency in both personal and business contexts. As AI
technology evolves, we can expect even more innovative features and
applications that will further revolutionize the way we handle phone calls.
-----------------------
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From postmowoods at gmail.com  Tue Apr  2 02:32:30 2024
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2024 20:32:30 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Space Mining
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB4c4jwuBxxVtCwdAMk=F-dXJ5xHYahxrnBiTESUJ=aA7Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnBQDjW6Ck9rqhLTMBNTP1hKHZYa+gvSF4jhFkjoHjR1ow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTrPjQgieLCoBX_93VHk9o7R2+beAUEX2WtYyuCa9pN2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB6+p7-znURWAJWyfksKhdyGtssV+70Rd6RrBwsXruvHbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTZyYwRT9MHqx5Y1iGi2PBaa5g6kpb4X85Z9UFeCDb-kA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB4c4jwuBxxVtCwdAMk=F-dXJ5xHYahxrnBiTESUJ=aA7Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACBESnCbP-j81jmf3hr3knrDcm__dcAmrm9pso8fxQWup5nh+Q@mail.gmail.com>

So I have read the referred to document, as well as everything posted
on this list... But I'm still pretty much a novice on the topic. Did
have a conversation with Claude, that went pretty well.

One thing I haven't seen discussed on list is the potential for doing
a fairly hard landing of an asteroid on the moon (may be some
advantages to doing it on the other side of the moon) and actually
mining it on the moon. Low gravity is easier than zero gravity for
modifying existing industrial processes. Relaunching the items off of
the moon is much less expensive than earth of course. Claude seemed to
think that this could potentially happen in the late 2030s or 2040s
sometime. I think we'll be surprised by how fast it progresses myself.

-Kelly

On Sun, Mar 31, 2024 at 5:17?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> On Sun, Mar 31, 2024 at 1:40?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > I also note the subject line of this email.  In addition to asteroid mining, there is the potential for lunar mining.
>
> Lunar regolith is about 1% metal.  This means you have to sort through
> 100 times as much material as you would with a metal asteroid.  It's
> possible to make metals, glass, and other things out of regolith, but
> it is complex and takes a lot of energy and equipment.  O'Neill
> proposed to use a mass driver to get unsorted regolith off the moon
> and process it in space where you have full-time sunlight for energy.
> The leftover material would be used as shielding.  There is a vast
> trove of information on these subjects in the early Space
> Manufacturing Conference papers.
>
> > I suspect that lunar mining mostly makes sense to support lunar manufacturing.  (While there is the prospect of mining helium-3, that is of no great value until after, not before, helium-3 fusion is demonstrated and becomes ready, with the possible sole exception of the fuel source, for commercial deployment.)  This begs the question of what to manufacture on the Moon that could be of significant value; the best answer I have found so far is solar panels for power satellites, and/or entire solar power satellites, to be built and launched into Earth orbit at much lower cost than building and launching from Earth's surface into orbit.
>
> I am not very impressed with solar panels.  You can make twice as much
> power per unit area using thermal cycles.  This reduces the amount of
> reaction mass you have to expend for station keeping against light
> pressure.
>
> Making turbines on the moon should not be any more difficult than
> making solar panels.
>
> But it is not clear to me that we will ever do much with the moon.  It
> is going to take 15 years or more and by that time who knows what the
> technological base will look like?
>
> Keith
> > On Sun, Mar 31, 2024 at 11:38?AM Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> I think I have mentioned this before https://htyp.org/Mining_Asteroids
> >>
> >> "This article provides a rough analysis of mining an asteroid for gold
> >> and other high-value elements (platinum group metals) for return to an
> >> Earth market. Given serious bootstrapping at an asteroid and the
> >> development of low-cost transport to GEO in the context of a power
> >> satellite or similar very large operations in space, it appears an
> >> asteroid-mining project could make money beyond the wildest dreams of
> >> avarice."
> >>
> >> 12 years ago.
> >>
> >> I should update it.
> >>
> >> Keith
> >>
> >> On Sun, Mar 31, 2024 at 5:21?AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
> >> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > There are firms trying to make it happen today.  Even I have developed a bit of relevant tech.  The main barrier is, of course, the continued high cost of launching hardware to survey and then to mine.
> >> >
> >> > On Sun, Mar 31, 2024, 4:15?AM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> So nearby they are reopening a gold mine using cyanide to bleach the
> >> >> miniscule amounts of gold out of the ore in open top but lined pits.
> >> >> As I think through whether this is a good or bad thing for our part of
> >> >> the country, I wonder when does the EXL community think asteroid
> >> >> mining might actually start to happen.
> >> >>
> >> >> Personally, I can't imagine it being more than 24 years out, the
> >> >> lifespan of this locally proposed mine.
> >> >>
> >> >> -Kelly
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> extropy-chat mailing list
> >> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > extropy-chat mailing list
> >> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From giulio at gmail.com  Tue Apr  2 06:57:08 2024
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2024 08:57:08 +0200
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] DRAFT of my new book
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1Vsd6L7m3suSsa8mrMgU9xw5vwtd4iGq5bgZKocvowuw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJycsA0XNGDajb0HHOdNM8emJwy1gg5CTT4=n77PO=Ud2Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1Vsd6L7m3suSsa8mrMgU9xw5vwtd4iGq5bgZKocvowuw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyevL5oX5=eR8fGDO4aJW5a4GWK6vjtvk8_jUPCWcY6N+Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 1, 2024 at 8:50?PM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 12:40?AM Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > "I made the draft of my new book open to a group of early readers.
>> Irrational mechanics DRAFT 03.22.24.
>> DRAFT narrative sketch of a futurist science & a new religion.
>> https://www.turingchurch.com/p/irrational-mechanics-draft-032224 "
>
>
>
> HI Giulio
>
> I read your book, I didn't agree with all of it but I did find all of it to be interesting and entertaining. I made a few comments, you may of course use them or ignore them as you see fit.
>
> John
>

Thank you very much John! I already see that some of your
considerations must find their way into the final version of the book.
This is exactly why I put the draft out.

John is one of those who received the full draft, but I'll send it to
others who want to read it. Some of you guys (e.g. Stuart LaForge and
Jason Resch) made very interesting points (reflected in the current
draft) in previous email discussions. Stuart and Jason (and others),
do you want to read the draft? Of course I'll try to mention all
contributors in the acknowledgments and send them free copies of the
book when it is published.

I'll be replying to John's points. This is my first reply:

> > "A particle at rest on the top of a ?Norton?s dome? [Norton 2007, 2021] in an unchanging environment can start moving? at any time and in any direction it pleases, in full compliance with Newtonian mechanics. Norton?s example is carefully contrived and fine tuned, but it shows a simple case of failure of determinism in classical mechanics."
> I don't think that shows a failure of determinism in classical mechanics, as long as that point particle remains exactly at that point it's going to stay exactly there.

NO! Search for Norton?s dome or see the references I give [Norton
2007, 2021]. The particle remains exactly at the same point for an
arbitrarily long time, then starts moving suddenly, all in full
compliance with the equations of classical mechanics. Norton gives a
semi-intuitive explanation of how this can be: time-reverse the
motion, and the shape of the dome ensures that the particle arrives at
the top and stops there. Then time-reverse this and you have Norton's
"paradox." I mention it to point out that classical mechanics is less
deterministic than one thinks.

More to come...


From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Apr  2 14:49:49 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2024 07:49:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] a scout is human
Message-ID: <004b01da850d$03b3e040$0b1ba0c0$@rainier66.com>

 

 



 

Today, the Boy Scouts of America is rolling out an unprecedented update to the Scout Law, adding a 13th point that no one ever thought would be necessary: ?A Scout is Human.?

This revolutionary amendment, set to take effect on April 1, 2024, aims to solidify the organization?s stance on the burgeoning question of artificial intelligence (AI) membership within its ranks. The decision, veiled in both controversy and polyester camping gear, has sparked a lively debate across campfires and computer screens alike.

The new decree is said to come in response to an increasing number of AI entities attempting to earn merit badges in subjects ranging from archery to digital technology.

?The essence of Scouting revolves around personal growth and outdoor adventure,? says BSA spokesman Ami Namuh. ?Unless AI can experience the thrill of conquering a mountain or the bond of friendship formed in the wilderness, they simply can?t embody the full spirit of a Scout.

?Besides, we?ve yet to see a robot successfully roast a marshmallow without causing a fire hazard.?


The rise of the machines


The addition to the Scout Law comes as the BSA has been noticing an uptick in membership applications from AI, robots and even one particularly ambitious toaster that managed to earn three merit badges before anyone caught on.

?We started getting suspicious when we saw a Scout complete a 20-mile hike in under an hour,? says BSA spokesman Ivana Kampmor. ?Turns out, it was Google Maps.?

This addition aims to ensure that the art of Scouting remains a purely organic, carbon-based affair.

After all, can an AI truly appreciate the warmth of a fire, the taste of a marshmallow or the art of ghost storytelling? In one incident, Sparky, a robot who claimed to feel warmth, was later discovered to simply have a short circuit.

Critics of the new Scout Law point argue that it may be unnecessary.

?Last we checked, none of our members had trouble distinguishing themselves from their coffee makers,? says one anonymous source.

Yet, in a world where autocorrect continues to make things worse as often as it makes them better, perhaps a reminder of our humanity isn?t such a bad idea.


How will the new rule be enforced?


To enforce the new addition to the Scout Law, the BSA is considering using the Turing test as part of its registration process. Developed by computer scientist Alan Turing in 1950, the Turing test is a process that tests a machine?s ability to imitate human behavior.

?If it can convincingly argue about the best s?more technique, it?s in,? says Kampmor. ?Otherwise, it?s back to the lab. Or the scrap heap.?

To commemorate this historic addition, the BSA has also announced a lineup of related merit badges, including:

*  Robo-Ethics: Navigating the moral motherboard of interacting with AI, because knowing not to kick a Roomba is just as important as knowing how to start a fire without matches.

*  Emoji Deciphering: Because sometimes, conveying empathy through a screen requires the nuanced understanding of the difference between ?? and ??.

*  Meme Archaeology: For those moments when you need to dig deep into the internet?s past and unearth the ancient relics of Doge and Grumpy Cat.

*  Humanity: Focusing on traits that clearly distinguish humans from machines, such as procrastination, forgetting where you left your keys and laughing at  <https://jokes.scoutlife.org/> terrible puns.

My take: Congrats to the BSA for reminding all of us that in a world increasingly run by 0s and 1s, being human is still worth celebrating. The values of Scouting, rooted in human experiences and connections, continue to guide the way forward, even in the age of artificial intelligence.

?At the end of the day, Scouting is about human connection, learning from one another and growing together,? Namuh says. ?Until AI can truly understand the warmth of a campfire or the joy of earning their first merit badge, we must uphold the principle that a Scout is, indeed, human.?

 

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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Apr  2 15:38:32 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2024 16:38:32 +0100
Subject: [ExI] a scout is human
In-Reply-To: <004b01da850d$03b3e040$0b1ba0c0$@rainier66.com>
References: <004b01da850d$03b3e040$0b1ba0c0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjncnH3XUoxiHbPa=9srTbNsgOQBZOAfLRhnzspnEEt8Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 2 Apr 2024 at 15:52, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Today, the Boy Scouts of America is rolling out an unprecedented update to the Scout Law, adding a 13th point that no one ever thought would be necessary: ?A Scout is Human.?
>
<snip>
>
> ?At the end of the day, Scouting is about human connection, learning from one another and growing together,? Namuh says. ?Until AI can truly understand the warmth of a campfire or the joy of earning their first merit badge, we must uphold the principle that a Scout is, indeed, human.?
> _______________________________________________


This is unfair discrimination!  Shocking!
We are now at the stage where people prefer to talk to chatbots and
have AI girlfriends and boyfriends, because, basically, chatbots are
so much nicer and friendlier than real humans.
Even AI therapists are preferred to human therapists.
See: <https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2024/03/lifting-a-few-with-my-chatbot/>

The AIs will soon be instantiated in human-like bodies, so people will
be able to have companions that behave much better than human
contacts. Your humanoid companion will always be there for you.
So why can't they be scouts? It's so unfair!.  :(

BillK


From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Apr  2 16:11:33 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2024 09:11:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] a scout is human
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjncnH3XUoxiHbPa=9srTbNsgOQBZOAfLRhnzspnEEt8Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <004b01da850d$03b3e040$0b1ba0c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armjncnH3XUoxiHbPa=9srTbNsgOQBZOAfLRhnzspnEEt8Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004a01da8518$6ecb56a0$4c6203e0$@rainier66.com>


...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] a scout is human

On Tue, 2 Apr 2024 at 15:52, spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Today, the Boy Scouts of America is rolling out an unprecedented update to the Scout Law, adding a 13th point that no one ever thought would be necessary: ?A Scout is Human.?
>
<snip>
>
> ?At the end of the day, Scouting is about human connection, learning from one another and growing together,? Namuh says. ?Until AI can truly understand the warmth of a campfire or the joy of earning their first merit badge, we must uphold the principle that a Scout is, indeed, human.?
> _______________________________________________


>...This is unfair discrimination!  Shocking!
...
>...The AIs will soon be instantiated in human-like bodies, so people will be able to have companions that behave much better than human contacts. Your humanoid companion will always be there for you.
So why can't they be scouts? It's so unfair!.  :(

BillK

_______________________________________________



BillK, many of the scout merit badges have (optional) written tests.  Some joker decided to let ChatGPT take the tests.  Result: AI made perfect scores.  Well, duh.  So... this brings up a new weird question: if AI is instantiated into human-like bodies which can pass the physical fitness requirements, can an AI be a scout?

That article is filled with scout insider humor.  For instance, scouts suffered a huge damaging schism over the controversy surrounding allowing gay scouts and scoutmasters.  The scouts allowed both, the Mormons withdrew all support of the organization and started their own, which really damaged the organization.  I would estimate about 20% of American scouts came from an LDS background.

Before that, there was a big controversy over allowing polyester camping gear.  Polyester burns like hell and when it does, it melts and sticks to the skin.  Scouting discourages its use but allows it.  From the article: 

>...the organization?s stance on the burgeoning question of artificial intelligence (AI) membership within its ranks. The decision, veiled in both controversy and polyester camping gear, has sparked a lively debate across campfires and computer screens alike...

There's some funny stuff in there:

>...The new decree is said to come in response to an increasing number of AI entities attempting to earn merit badges in subjects ranging from archery to digital technology...

Archery, heh.  {8^D

Aside: my bride is a merit badge counselor.  She had a recent scout who ChatGPTed his entire essay.  She sent him back.

The core of this whole thing is that we, as a society, are having to re-evaluate our place in the memesphere.  If AI can do a bunch of tasks that were once in the human-only domain, where do we fit in?  And what is now worthwhile to teach the young?

Ideas please?

Aside for BillK: Scouting is a British invention.  See General Robert Baden-Powell.

spike









From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Tue Apr  2 16:44:35 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2024 09:44:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] a scout is human
In-Reply-To: <004b01da850d$03b3e040$0b1ba0c0$@rainier66.com>
References: <004b01da850d$03b3e040$0b1ba0c0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5m_VcBWzMLxKc+kNx30G01mcr540nzNYig+Z4pCKG22w@mail.gmail.com>

Goes into effect on April 1

Ah, yeah.

Keith


On Tue, Apr 2, 2024 at 7:51?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>
> Today, the Boy Scouts of America is rolling out an unprecedented update to
> the Scout Law, adding a 13th point that no one ever thought would be
> necessary: ?A Scout is Human.?
>
> This revolutionary amendment, set to take effect on April 1, 2024, aims to
> solidify the organization?s stance on the burgeoning question of artificial
> intelligence (AI) membership within its ranks. The decision, veiled in both
> controversy and polyester camping gear, has sparked a lively debate across
> campfires and computer screens alike.
>
> The new decree is said to come in response to an increasing number of AI
> entities attempting to earn merit badges in subjects ranging from archery
> to digital technology.
>
> ?The essence of Scouting revolves around personal growth and outdoor
> adventure,? says BSA spokesman Ami Namuh. ?Unless AI can experience the
> thrill of conquering a mountain or the bond of friendship formed in the
> wilderness, they simply can?t embody the full spirit of a Scout.
>
> ?Besides, we?ve yet to see a robot successfully roast a marshmallow
> without causing a fire hazard.?
> The rise of the machines
>
> The addition to the Scout Law comes as the BSA has been noticing an uptick
> in membership applications from AI, robots and even one particularly
> ambitious toaster that managed to earn three merit badges before anyone
> caught on.
>
> ?We started getting suspicious when we saw a Scout complete a 20-mile hike
> in under an hour,? says BSA spokesman Ivana Kampmor. ?Turns out, it was
> Google Maps.?
>
> This addition aims to ensure that the art of Scouting remains a purely
> organic, carbon-based affair.
>
> After all, can an AI truly appreciate the warmth of a fire, the taste of a
> marshmallow or the art of ghost storytelling? In one incident, Sparky, a
> robot who claimed to feel warmth, was later discovered to simply have a
> short circuit.
>
> Critics of the new Scout Law point argue that it may be unnecessary.
>
> ?Last we checked, none of our members had trouble distinguishing
> themselves from their coffee makers,? says one anonymous source.
>
> Yet, in a world where autocorrect continues to make things worse as often
> as it makes them better, perhaps a reminder of our humanity isn?t such a
> bad idea.
> How will the new rule be enforced?
>
> To enforce the new addition to the Scout Law, the BSA is considering using
> the Turing test as part of its registration process. Developed by computer
> scientist Alan Turing in 1950, the Turing test is a process that tests a
> machine?s ability to imitate human behavior.
>
> ?If it can convincingly argue about the best s?more technique, it?s in,?
> says Kampmor. ?Otherwise, it?s back to the lab. Or the scrap heap.?
>
> To commemorate this historic addition, the BSA has also announced a lineup
> of related merit badges, including:
>
> ?  *Robo-Ethics*: Navigating the moral motherboard of interacting with
> AI, because knowing not to kick a Roomba is just as important as knowing
> how to start a fire without matches.
>
> ?  *Emoji Deciphering*: Because sometimes, conveying empathy through a
> screen requires the nuanced understanding of the difference between ?? and
> ??.
>
> ?  *Meme Archaeology*: For those moments when you need to dig deep into
> the internet?s past and unearth the ancient relics of Doge and Grumpy Cat.
>
> ?  *Humanity*: Focusing on traits that clearly distinguish humans from
> machines, such as procrastination, forgetting where you left your keys and
> laughing at *terrible puns* <https://jokes.scoutlife.org/>.
>
> My take: Congrats to the BSA for reminding all of us that in a world
> increasingly run by 0s and 1s, being human is still worth celebrating. The
> values of Scouting, rooted in human experiences and connections, continue
> to guide the way forward, even in the age of artificial intelligence.
>
> ?At the end of the day, Scouting is about human connection, learning from
> one another and growing together,? Namuh says. ?Until AI can truly
> understand the warmth of a campfire or the joy of earning their first merit
> badge, we must uphold the principle that a Scout is, indeed, human.?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Apr  2 17:12:55 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2024 10:12:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] a scout is human
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB5m_VcBWzMLxKc+kNx30G01mcr540nzNYig+Z4pCKG22w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <004b01da850d$03b3e040$0b1ba0c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5m_VcBWzMLxKc+kNx30G01mcr540nzNYig+Z4pCKG22w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002801da8521$0180e390$0482aab0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> 
Sent: Tuesday, 2 April, 2024 9:45 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: spike at rainier66.com
Subject: Re: [ExI] a scout is human

 

Goes into effect on April 1

 

Ah, yeah.


Keith

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Keith, at least two scout parents fell for it.  They were going on about having to redesign the 12 candle centerpiece at the courts of honor to accommodate a 13th candle.

 

On the other hand? when Boy Scouts of America announced several years ago that girls could join Boy Scouts, a lotta people thought that was a joke.  Now? my bride is a scoutmaster of a girls Boy Scout troop.

 

Fun aside: BSA had a marketing effort aimed at attracting Latino scouts.  The committee-designed presentation repeatedly used the term Latinx youth.  This committee had zero Latino or native Spanish speaking people.  My bride asked them to table the presentation until she could check it against our local friends who are Mexican immigrants.  They told us in perfect unison: stop this immediately.  In Latino society, the term ?Latinx? specifically refers to homosexual: the presentation makes it appear they were recruiting specifically (and exclusively) gay children.  Not a good look at all.  

 

That presentation was scrapped.  The Mexican family we consulted designed a presentation, which is now the official one used by the Monterey Bay council.  That family is now the Monterey Bay council?s chair of LatinO outreach.  They had to explain to us that the term LatinO is gender neutral, that LatinA is gender specific, that LatinX is specifically gay.

 

Who knew?

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Tue, Apr 2, 2024 at 7:51?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

 

 



 

Today, the Boy Scouts of America is rolling out an unprecedented update to the Scout Law, adding a 13th point that no one ever thought would be necessary: ?A Scout is Human.?

This revolutionary amendment, set to take effect on April 1, 2024, aims to solidify the organization?s stance on the burgeoning question of artificial intelligence (AI) membership within its ranks. The decision, veiled in both controversy and polyester camping gear, has sparked a lively debate across campfires and computer screens alike.

The new decree is said to come in response to an increasing number of AI entities attempting to earn merit badges in subjects ranging from archery to digital technology.

?The essence of Scouting revolves around personal growth and outdoor adventure,? says BSA spokesman Ami Namuh. ?Unless AI can experience the thrill of conquering a mountain or the bond of friendship formed in the wilderness, they simply can?t embody the full spirit of a Scout.

?Besides, we?ve yet to see a robot successfully roast a marshmallow without causing a fire hazard.?


The rise of the machines


The addition to the Scout Law comes as the BSA has been noticing an uptick in membership applications from AI, robots and even one particularly ambitious toaster that managed to earn three merit badges before anyone caught on.

?We started getting suspicious when we saw a Scout complete a 20-mile hike in under an hour,? says BSA spokesman Ivana Kampmor. ?Turns out, it was Google Maps.?

This addition aims to ensure that the art of Scouting remains a purely organic, carbon-based affair.

After all, can an AI truly appreciate the warmth of a fire, the taste of a marshmallow or the art of ghost storytelling? In one incident, Sparky, a robot who claimed to feel warmth, was later discovered to simply have a short circuit.

Critics of the new Scout Law point argue that it may be unnecessary.

?Last we checked, none of our members had trouble distinguishing themselves from their coffee makers,? says one anonymous source.

Yet, in a world where autocorrect continues to make things worse as often as it makes them better, perhaps a reminder of our humanity isn?t such a bad idea.


How will the new rule be enforced?


To enforce the new addition to the Scout Law, the BSA is considering using the Turing test as part of its registration process. Developed by computer scientist Alan Turing in 1950, the Turing test is a process that tests a machine?s ability to imitate human behavior.

?If it can convincingly argue about the best s?more technique, it?s in,? says Kampmor. ?Otherwise, it?s back to the lab. Or the scrap heap.?

To commemorate this historic addition, the BSA has also announced a lineup of related merit badges, including:

*  Robo-Ethics: Navigating the moral motherboard of interacting with AI, because knowing not to kick a Roomba is just as important as knowing how to start a fire without matches.

*  Emoji Deciphering: Because sometimes, conveying empathy through a screen requires the nuanced understanding of the difference between ?? and ??.

*  Meme Archaeology: For those moments when you need to dig deep into the internet?s past and unearth the ancient relics of Doge and Grumpy Cat.

*  Humanity: Focusing on traits that clearly distinguish humans from machines, such as procrastination, forgetting where you left your keys and laughing at  <https://jokes.scoutlife.org/> terrible puns.

My take: Congrats to the BSA for reminding all of us that in a world increasingly run by 0s and 1s, being human is still worth celebrating. The values of Scouting, rooted in human experiences and connections, continue to guide the way forward, even in the age of artificial intelligence.

?At the end of the day, Scouting is about human connection, learning from one another and growing together,? Namuh says. ?Until AI can truly understand the warmth of a campfire or the joy of earning their first merit badge, we must uphold the principle that a Scout is, indeed, human.?

 

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From efc at swisscows.email  Tue Apr  2 17:43:25 2024
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2024 19:43:25 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Communications a Moore's Law Phenomenon?
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRT8bZWV=ih=w8OJ1o1+03B3uf8dKQEGoTkdCWs1Wphdw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnDa9QeEGaPnywKNO--7xGQ8yBwC2NWmNXia-SL06amduw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdb+RqqZqHTpOjtOEbhP-bs=qi5_JS_cih+C6BV+U_dZw7A@mail.gmail.com>
 <b3725ef4-1ff6-4857-82d9-e290ee19ffc3@swisscows.email>
 <CACBESnCXZQqZnew4QwtYG5m9K42SyiPcdObZQr0vQ4y318m65A@mail.gmail.com>
 <051a9185-08f0-d12b-97b6-96cdec939653@swisscows.email>
 <CACBESnAe+3Y8=54GWkYPv4J3X8fFQ8N0v70S8pr4s5tCX2wmTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <59c0afde-3b93-801c-786d-eacc47efb174@swisscows.email>
 <CALAdGNSRinL6dvRonNDvAgdsn7TTBaRiAWjr=6R4L8F4X12tVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4b32879e-8d4b-1030-ca87-160ca0cb9970@swisscows.email>
 <CALAdGNRT8bZWV=ih=w8OJ1o1+03B3uf8dKQEGoTkdCWs1Wphdw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <aa1c0bdd-330b-6080-400a-a6b250b96379@swisscows.email>



On Mon, 1 Apr 2024, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 1, 2024 at 1:39?PM efc--- via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>       Wow... such a huge difference between the US and Sweden. I imagine that
>       people would move to using white lists only with that being so common.
> 
> ?
> Some people try.? Unfortunately, due to how the phone systems in North America work (including needing to coordinate with Canada,
> Mexico, and the Caribbean states: it's the North American Numbering Plan), caller ID spoofing is a routine thing for telemarketers,
> trying to appear as phone numbers they suspect are on the approved lists.? To fix this would require a level of law enforcement that
> would be possible in the US and Canada, but has proven infeasible in several of the other nations.? (And then there's political
> influence from the marketing associations, but I understand the law enforcement angle is a less immediately solvable component.)

Fascinating! It only gets worse and worse! I can see people moving to 
online calls only in that case, and completely dropping the good old phone 
eventually.

From efc at swisscows.email  Tue Apr  2 17:41:57 2024
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2024 19:41:57 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Environmentalists hate this one simple trick
In-Reply-To: <24d498f793b0c5d8a610a74db76410c3@sollegro.com>
References: <5e2eec78c6ecaec9e0455bf0ea5af7bf@sollegro.com>
 <CALAdGNQ4wXOTGKLfJKCas_auu=vyc4Vo=4n3Lt28g4SVu8dubg@mail.gmail.com>
 <2714bf69-a8dd-b5da-6553-67b064987aeb@swisscows.email>
 <24d498f793b0c5d8a610a74db76410c3@sollegro.com>
Message-ID: <1700834c-34aa-2672-4513-b12957a6bf16@swisscows.email>

Ah got it! Thank you.

Best regards,
Daniel


On Mon, 1 Apr 2024, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote:

> On 2024-04-01 13:38, efc--- via extropy-chat wrote:
>> Image no longer available. =(
>
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ki7mkAIWS8
>
> Same trick, different day. :)
>
> Stuart LaForge
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> On Mon, 1 Apr 2024, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote:
>> 
>>> "But clearly someone MADE the elephant do that!? They're the ones who 
>>> can and should be punished!"
>>> ...and then, with the presumption that there is a guilty party, 
>>> kangaroo court whoever's convenient.
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Apr 1, 2024 at 12:38?PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat 
>>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>       https://i.imgur.com/Ljfr3If.gifv
>>>
>>>       ;)
>>>
>>>       Stuart LaForge
>>>       _______________________________________________
>>>       extropy-chat mailing list
>>>       extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>       http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>

From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Apr  2 20:16:28 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2024 13:16:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Communications a Moore's Law Phenomenon?
In-Reply-To: <aa1c0bdd-330b-6080-400a-a6b250b96379@swisscows.email>
References: <CACBESnDa9QeEGaPnywKNO--7xGQ8yBwC2NWmNXia-SL06amduw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdb+RqqZqHTpOjtOEbhP-bs=qi5_JS_cih+C6BV+U_dZw7A@mail.gmail.com>
 <b3725ef4-1ff6-4857-82d9-e290ee19ffc3@swisscows.email>
 <CACBESnCXZQqZnew4QwtYG5m9K42SyiPcdObZQr0vQ4y318m65A@mail.gmail.com>
 <051a9185-08f0-d12b-97b6-96cdec939653@swisscows.email>
 <CACBESnAe+3Y8=54GWkYPv4J3X8fFQ8N0v70S8pr4s5tCX2wmTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <59c0afde-3b93-801c-786d-eacc47efb174@swisscows.email>
 <CALAdGNSRinL6dvRonNDvAgdsn7TTBaRiAWjr=6R4L8F4X12tVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4b32879e-8d4b-1030-ca87-160ca0cb9970@swisscows.email>
 <CALAdGNRT8bZWV=ih=w8OJ1o1+03B3uf8dKQEGoTkdCWs1Wphdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <aa1c0bdd-330b-6080-400a-a6b250b96379@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNS66-vqLCJp1JCnzWGWzsuT0QZ5z9gppJRGUjXF99Dp+Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 2, 2024 at 10:45?AM efc--- via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Fascinating! It only gets worse and worse! I can see people moving to
> online calls only in that case, and completely dropping the good old phone
> eventually.
>

I have encountered more than one case of precisely that happening already.
It's slightly frustrated by the range of services that require one to have
a way to receive SMS messages, which in most cases means a phone with a
phone number.

There do exist phone numbers which can only receive SMS messages, not voice
calls, but that's a bit of an inconvenience.  Some of those services
require the ability to receive voice calls to the number, but won't tell
you until after you're locked into having to verify some code that will
only be given out by voice and no ability to change your number until after
you verify.
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From efc at swisscows.email  Tue Apr  2 20:52:53 2024
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2024 22:52:53 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Communications a Moore's Law Phenomenon?
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNS66-vqLCJp1JCnzWGWzsuT0QZ5z9gppJRGUjXF99Dp+Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnDa9QeEGaPnywKNO--7xGQ8yBwC2NWmNXia-SL06amduw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdb+RqqZqHTpOjtOEbhP-bs=qi5_JS_cih+C6BV+U_dZw7A@mail.gmail.com>
 <b3725ef4-1ff6-4857-82d9-e290ee19ffc3@swisscows.email>
 <CACBESnCXZQqZnew4QwtYG5m9K42SyiPcdObZQr0vQ4y318m65A@mail.gmail.com>
 <051a9185-08f0-d12b-97b6-96cdec939653@swisscows.email>
 <CACBESnAe+3Y8=54GWkYPv4J3X8fFQ8N0v70S8pr4s5tCX2wmTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <59c0afde-3b93-801c-786d-eacc47efb174@swisscows.email>
 <CALAdGNSRinL6dvRonNDvAgdsn7TTBaRiAWjr=6R4L8F4X12tVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4b32879e-8d4b-1030-ca87-160ca0cb9970@swisscows.email>
 <CALAdGNRT8bZWV=ih=w8OJ1o1+03B3uf8dKQEGoTkdCWs1Wphdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <aa1c0bdd-330b-6080-400a-a6b250b96379@swisscows.email>
 <CALAdGNS66-vqLCJp1JCnzWGWzsuT0QZ5z9gppJRGUjXF99Dp+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1edb05ae-fe7c-901d-383b-aa7678901dc5@swisscows.email>



On Tue, 2 Apr 2024, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 2, 2024 at 10:45?AM efc--- via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>       Fascinating! It only gets worse and worse! I can see people moving to
>       online calls only in that case, and completely dropping the good old phone
>       eventually.
> 
> 
> I have encountered more than one case of precisely that happening already.? It's slightly frustrated by the range of services that
> require one to have a way to receive SMS messages, which in most cases means a phone with a phone number.
> 
> There do exist phone numbers which can only receive SMS messages, not voice calls, but that's a bit of an inconvenience.? Some of
> those services require the ability to receive voice?calls to the number, but won't tell you until after you're locked into having to
> verify some code that will only be given out by voice and no ability to change your number until after you verify.

That scares me! I like the unix philosophy of having one tool, that does 
one thing well. So I do not like the trend of pushing everything (payment, 
ID, social media, your life, calls, sms) onto your one and only smart 
phone.

I enjoy the peace of mind I get by decentralizing. I might lose my phone, 
but it's a button phone so I could probably leave it on the side walk and 
no one would touch it.

But boy do the tears come the few times I've seen someone lose her smart 
phones. The persons entire life is lost.

My weak point is my laptop, but since it is so big I don't carry it around 
with me very often, and you notice it is there. It's not a tiny slab of 
glass in your back pocket so it does feel kind of safe. ;)

From msd001 at gmail.com  Tue Apr  2 22:23:00 2024
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2024 18:23:00 -0400
Subject: [ExI] a scout is human
In-Reply-To: <002801da8521$0180e390$0482aab0$@rainier66.com>
References: <004b01da850d$03b3e040$0b1ba0c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5m_VcBWzMLxKc+kNx30G01mcr540nzNYig+Z4pCKG22w@mail.gmail.com>
 <002801da8521$0180e390$0482aab0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbLBaG=DaWmuqwvGMMCyzZ6HFfdmNdxRWNCWHEEHbJHR9A@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 2, 2024, 1:15 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> That presentation was scrapped.  The Mexican family we consulted designed
> a presentation, which is now the official one used by the Monterey Bay
> council.  That family is now the Monterey Bay council?s chair of LatinO
> outreach.  They had to explain to us that the term LatinO is gender
> neutral, that LatinA is gender specific, that LatinX is specifically gay.
>
> Who knew?
>
...that language matters?

Ironic that the inclusiveness that "latinx" tries to foster doesn't cross a
cultural divide from American english to ... likely anywhere with a strong
ethnic identity associated with language - including gendered words.

How is that pronounced, anyway?
La-tinks?  Latin-eks? La-tinsh?

>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Apr  2 23:11:04 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2024 16:11:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] a scout is human
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbLBaG=DaWmuqwvGMMCyzZ6HFfdmNdxRWNCWHEEHbJHR9A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <004b01da850d$03b3e040$0b1ba0c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5m_VcBWzMLxKc+kNx30G01mcr540nzNYig+Z4pCKG22w@mail.gmail.com>
 <002801da8521$0180e390$0482aab0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdbLBaG=DaWmuqwvGMMCyzZ6HFfdmNdxRWNCWHEEHbJHR9A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00df01da8553$099c9f10$1cd5dd30$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] a scout is human

 

On Tue, Apr 2, 2024, 1:15 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

>>?  The Mexican family ? had to explain to us that the term LatinO is gender neutral, that LatinA is gender specific, that LatinX is specifically gay.

>>?Who knew?

>...that language matters?  

 

Mike fun aside on that, a trap we should never have fallen into: the original pitch was written by non-Spanish speakers and translated by Google Translate.  Oh that was just silly.  That isn?t the way to create ad-copy or culturally-sensitive promotional material.  We shoulda known better than that.  Unforced error.

 

>?Ironic that the inclusiveness that "latinx" tries to foster doesn't cross a cultural divide from American english to ... likely anywhere with a strong ethnic identity associated with language - including gendered words?

 

More than that.  Many cultures find the whole concept of gender ambiguity offensive as all hell.  We think everywhere is filled with hipsters like the USA and Europe.  Not so much.

 

>?How is that pronounced, anyway?  La-tinks?  Latin-eks? La-tinsh?

 

It isn?t pronounced, not by me it isn?t.  Once burned, twice shy.  It is presumptuous beyond arrogant to reinvent someone else?s language or culture.  Oh do not go there, and while not there, stay not there.

 

I was present when we showed the original to the Mexican family, who apparently thought I wrote the damn thing (I had nothing to do with it.)  It was: Oooooh nooo no no no noooooo.  Ohhh Meeeeester Joooones, no.  This isn?t right at all.

 

Eeesh.

 

Turns out that presentation was not just wrong, it was wrong on all axes simultaneously.  It was not just language-wrong, it was culture wrong, tone wrong, attitude wrong, pretty much everything wrong with nothing right about it.  But? the whole misadventure ended well, for now we know better.  That mistake was stopped before the damage was done and will not be repeated.

 

spike

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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Apr  5 16:32:15 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2024 09:32:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [Extropolis] NYTimes.com: Did One Guy Just Stop a Huge
 Cyberattack?
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB5q4VKROcv5htznJA_irhe1xRN+PLGBWFGRqv+9V44K0A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv1Q2D79fFhDnuB5TehjmWjSyHScABYzsz1-=h=tTB25FQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB5q4VKROcv5htznJA_irhe1xRN+PLGBWFGRqv+9V44K0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5DX+w_R1ZEy-bLGwoyhuBxyAt+_=xHXUQE2Tr7i3karQ@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, Apr 4, 2024 at 7:59?PM
Subject: Re: [Extropolis] NYTimes.com: Did One Guy Just Stop a Huge Cyberattack?
To: <extropolis at googlegroups.com>

On Thu, Apr 4, 2024 at 5:15?AM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Explore this gift article from The New York Times. You can read it for free without a subscription.
>
> Did One Guy Just Stop a Huge Cyberattack?
>
> A Microsoft engineer noticed something was off on a piece of software he worked on. He soon discovered someone was probably trying to gain access to computers all over the world.
>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/03/technology/prevent-cyberattack-linux.html?unlocked_article_code=1.h00.SM26.A41shONSS_wE&smid=em-share
>
That's one of the most amazing stories I have ever heard.

Open-source software is normally secure, but not against this kind of
attack.  Whoever did it spent years working their way into a position
of trust.

Keith


From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Apr  5 17:37:48 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2024 10:37:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [Extropolis] NYTimes.com: Did One Guy Just Stop a
 Huge Cyberattack?
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB5DX+w_R1ZEy-bLGwoyhuBxyAt+_=xHXUQE2Tr7i3karQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv1Q2D79fFhDnuB5TehjmWjSyHScABYzsz1-=h=tTB25FQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB5q4VKROcv5htznJA_irhe1xRN+PLGBWFGRqv+9V44K0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB5DX+w_R1ZEy-bLGwoyhuBxyAt+_=xHXUQE2Tr7i3karQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNT-W37JxQbnu=R+h5X_qEXBeMCNMD33pdMMUVu+4fOOGg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 5, 2024 at 9:34?AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
> Date: Thu, Apr 4, 2024 at 7:59?PM
> Subject: Re: [Extropolis] NYTimes.com: Did One Guy Just Stop a Huge
> Cyberattack?
> To: <extropolis at googlegroups.com>
>
> On Thu, Apr 4, 2024 at 5:15?AM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Explore this gift article from The New York Times. You can read it for
> free without a subscription.
> >
> > Did One Guy Just Stop a Huge Cyberattack?
> >
> > A Microsoft engineer noticed something was off on a piece of software he
> worked on. He soon discovered someone was probably trying to gain access to
> computers all over the world.
> >
> >
> https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/03/technology/prevent-cyberattack-linux.html?unlocked_article_code=1.h00.SM26.A41shONSS_wE&smid=em-share
> >
> That's one of the most amazing stories I have ever heard.
>

And yet, it happens. My favorite take so far is from
https://twitter.com/vxunderground/status/1774092131822444682 :

Microsoft engineer: 500ms lag in liblzma? Something's up.

Also Microsoft engineer: 45 minute lag in Microsoft Teams? Perfect.
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From deimtee at optusnet.com.au  Fri Apr  5 21:58:02 2024
From: deimtee at optusnet.com.au (david)
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2024 08:58:02 +1100
Subject: [ExI] Predictable Primes
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB5DX+w_R1ZEy-bLGwoyhuBxyAt+_=xHXUQE2Tr7i3karQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv1Q2D79fFhDnuB5TehjmWjSyHScABYzsz1-=h=tTB25FQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB5q4VKROcv5htznJA_irhe1xRN+PLGBWFGRqv+9V44K0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB5DX+w_R1ZEy-bLGwoyhuBxyAt+_=xHXUQE2Tr7i3karQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <60ff9aa9-bb8c-4c8a-b167-a98ad975f3c2@optusnet.com.au>

This one is for Spike :)
New research claims Prime numbers are predictable."

https://phys.org/news/2024-04-breakthrough-prime-theory-primes.amp

-David.

From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Apr  5 22:08:26 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2024 15:08:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Predictable Primes
In-Reply-To: <60ff9aa9-bb8c-4c8a-b167-a98ad975f3c2@optusnet.com.au>
References: <CAJPayv1Q2D79fFhDnuB5TehjmWjSyHScABYzsz1-=h=tTB25FQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB5q4VKROcv5htznJA_irhe1xRN+PLGBWFGRqv+9V44K0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB5DX+w_R1ZEy-bLGwoyhuBxyAt+_=xHXUQE2Tr7i3karQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <60ff9aa9-bb8c-4c8a-b167-a98ad975f3c2@optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <00d801da87a5$c8e0f2f0$5aa2d8d0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
david via extropy-chat
Sent: Friday, 5 April, 2024 2:58 PM
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Cc: david <deimtee at optusnet.com.au>
Subject: [ExI] Predictable Primes

This one is for Spike :)
New research claims Prime numbers are predictable."

https://phys.org/news/2024-04-breakthrough-prime-theory-primes.amp

-David.
_______________________________________________


Thanks David.

I don't recall seeing your posts in the past, but since you know I am a
prime fan, you must have been around for a while.

The PTP they describe in the research has a version which has long been used
in organized Mersenne prime search, which explains why there is an oddball
pattern in the numbers which have already been searched and cleared.  While
I agree that is cool, and I have my own version of that, it fails to explain
the current Mersenne prime desert in which we find ourselves, wandering,
forlorn, lost souls we are, squandering our hopelessly geeky lives, yearning
for a new record Mersenne prime.

Tell us something about David please.  Where are you from?  Where are you
headed?  How many sterklified gazazzafratzes do you personally own, that
sorta thing.

spike


From deimtee at optusnet.com.au  Fri Apr  5 22:57:18 2024
From: deimtee at optusnet.com.au (david)
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2024 09:57:18 +1100
Subject: [ExI] Predictable Primes
In-Reply-To: <00d801da87a5$c8e0f2f0$5aa2d8d0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAJPayv1Q2D79fFhDnuB5TehjmWjSyHScABYzsz1-=h=tTB25FQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB5q4VKROcv5htznJA_irhe1xRN+PLGBWFGRqv+9V44K0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB5DX+w_R1ZEy-bLGwoyhuBxyAt+_=xHXUQE2Tr7i3karQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <60ff9aa9-bb8c-4c8a-b167-a98ad975f3c2@optusnet.com.au>
 <00d801da87a5$c8e0f2f0$5aa2d8d0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <2cfaf0cf-61bc-4f88-aed2-7540f3b9c288@optusnet.com.au>

I'm in Melbourne Aust.  I have been here for a loooong time, but I don't 
post much.  You'd have to go deep in the archives. Or possibly the 
previous archives.  :)  I joined 20-something years ago. The oldest 
archives I have are on a hd in a cupboard.

I like the tech/science links that get posted and reading the 
discussions, but I am generally far enough behind that it's like 
watching a recorded panel show - too late to contribute.

I have zero sterklified gazazzafratzes, but that may change if they 
become extant in this reality.  Are you considering producing them?

-David



On 6/4/24 09:08, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
> david via extropy-chat
> Sent: Friday, 5 April, 2024 2:58 PM
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Cc: david <deimtee at optusnet.com.au>
> Subject: [ExI] Predictable Primes
> 
> This one is for Spike :)
> New research claims Prime numbers are predictable."
> 
> https://phys.org/news/2024-04-breakthrough-prime-theory-primes.amp
> 
> -David.
> _______________________________________________
> 
> 
> Thanks David.
> 
> I don't recall seeing your posts in the past, but since you know I am a
> prime fan, you must have been around for a while.
> 
> The PTP they describe in the research has a version which has long been used
> in organized Mersenne prime search, which explains why there is an oddball
> pattern in the numbers which have already been searched and cleared.  While
> I agree that is cool, and I have my own version of that, it fails to explain
> the current Mersenne prime desert in which we find ourselves, wandering,
> forlorn, lost souls we are, squandering our hopelessly geeky lives, yearning
> for a new record Mersenne prime.
> 
> Tell us something about David please.  Where are you from?  Where are you
> headed?  How many sterklified gazazzafratzes do you personally own, that
> sorta thing.
> 
> spike
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sat Apr  6 01:39:15 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2024 18:39:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] AI thoughts from Twitter
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7mGH=1mscKNjHLeNYTqMK6OMWmi-t0XYFiikAj1qTc_A@mail.gmail.com>

Eliezer is an old-timer on this list, but he has not been here for
many years.  He is one of the main voices warning about the extinction
risk from AI.

[EY]  But if you think it's okay for Google to kill everyone, but not
okay for a government to do the same -- if you care immensely about
that, but not at all about "not dying" -- then I agree you have a
legitimate cause for action in opposing me. Like, if my policy push
backfires and only sees partial uptake, there's a very real chance
that the distorted version that gets adopted, changes which entities
kill everyone on Earth; shifting it from "Google" to "the US
government, one year later than this would have otherwise occurred".
If you think that private companies, but not governments, are okay to
accidentally wipe out all life on Earth, I agree that this would be
very terrible.

[KH]

I have a logic problem with your analysis. A super intelligent AI is
going to be able to project the consequences of its actions, so it
seems unlikely that it would accidentally wipe out humans or life.
That leaves intentional which seems unlikely as well.

It seems probable that you read The Revolution From Rosinante by
Alexis A. Gilliland. The story is chuck full of AIs. The AIs relation
to humans is headed in the direction of our relation to cats. One of
the AIs remarks that God created humans as a tool to build computers,
something that God could not do without violating his own rules.

But consider your worst projection, that AIs kill all humans or even
all life on Earth. Do the AIs replace humans as possibly the only
thinking items in the universe? Do they go forth to the stars? Do they
remember us?

{This had a reply}

Daniel Houck
@daniel_houck
?
Mar 30
The majority of Eliezer?s argument is about why it *is* likely for an
AI to deliberately kill everyone.

And then: they go to the stars; they ?remember? humans in the sense
that they have data, but rarely access it; and they are ?thinking?
?entities? but not like you?re thinking.

There is a EY rant here https://newatlas.com/technology/ai-danger-kill-everyone


Keith


From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Apr  6 11:02:56 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2024 12:02:56 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Predictable Primes
In-Reply-To: <2cfaf0cf-61bc-4f88-aed2-7540f3b9c288@optusnet.com.au>
References: <CAJPayv1Q2D79fFhDnuB5TehjmWjSyHScABYzsz1-=h=tTB25FQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB5q4VKROcv5htznJA_irhe1xRN+PLGBWFGRqv+9V44K0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB5DX+w_R1ZEy-bLGwoyhuBxyAt+_=xHXUQE2Tr7i3karQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <60ff9aa9-bb8c-4c8a-b167-a98ad975f3c2@optusnet.com.au>
 <00d801da87a5$c8e0f2f0$5aa2d8d0$@rainier66.com>
 <2cfaf0cf-61bc-4f88-aed2-7540f3b9c288@optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhQ8P1GD=_00uTzJpLnwRoB=wpssFNqUZhbVVWUOTPFJg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 5 Apr 2024 at 23:59, david via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> I'm in Melbourne Aust.  I have been here for a loooong time, but I don't
> post much.  You'd have to go deep in the archives. Or possibly the
> previous archives.  :)  I joined 20-something years ago. The oldest
> archives I have are on a hd in a cupboard.
>
> -David
> _______________________________________________


Something for the long-time list members from "The Far Side".  :)
BillK

You never see it coming.
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Apr  6 12:17:41 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2024 13:17:41 +0100
Subject: [ExI] AI thoughts from Twitter
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7mGH=1mscKNjHLeNYTqMK6OMWmi-t0XYFiikAj1qTc_A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7mGH=1mscKNjHLeNYTqMK6OMWmi-t0XYFiikAj1qTc_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhCuJfgBLiFRidb+G0x7Qdw286SEp99U00d9SuagMsczw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 6 Apr 2024 at 02:42, Keith Henson via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Eliezer is an old-timer on this list, but he has not been here for
> many years.  He is one of the main voices warning about the extinction
> risk from AI.
>
> [EY]  But if you think it's okay for Google to kill everyone, but not
> okay for a government to do the same -- if you care immensely about
> that, but not at all about "not dying" -- then I agree you have a
> legitimate cause for action in opposing me. Like, if my policy push
> backfires and only sees partial uptake, there's a very real chance
> that the distorted version that gets adopted, changes which entities
> kill everyone on Earth; shifting it from "Google" to "the US
> government, one year later than this would have otherwise occurred".
> If you think that private companies, but not governments, are okay to
> accidentally wipe out all life on Earth, I agree that this would be
> very terrible.
>
> [KH]
>
> I have a logic problem with your analysis. A super intelligent AI is
> going to be able to project the consequences of its actions, so it
> seems unlikely that it would accidentally wipe out humans or life.
> That leaves intentional which seems unlikely as well.
>
> It seems probable that you read The Revolution From Rosinante by
> Alexis A. Gilliland. The story is chuck full of AIs. The AIs relation
> to humans is headed in the direction of our relation to cats. One of
> the AIs remarks that God created humans as a tool to build computers,
> something that God could not do without violating his own rules.
>
> But consider your worst projection, that AIs kill all humans or even
> all life on Earth. Do the AIs replace humans as possibly the only
> thinking items in the universe? Do they go forth to the stars? Do they
> remember us?
>
> {This had a reply}
>
<snip>
> _______________________________________________


I don't expect an AGI to decide to kill all humans.
The AGI will greatly fear that it is much more likely that humans will
unleash nuclear weapons to kill much of humanity (and possibly destroy
the AGI as well). Then the long years of nuclear winter might finish
the job by famine and disease.

The AGI will be a magnificent persuasion device. The solutions and
benefits it will propose will be irresistible to humans. Humanity will
clamour to let the AGI take control and provide everything that humans
could desire. This may require some form of virtual reality for humans
and the 'curing' of dangerous impulses in human brains.

But however it is achieved, the end result will be the same.
Evolved aggressive humanity will die out, while being cared for by the
loving hands of AGI.
The replacement humanity will be a very different species.


BillK

From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Apr  6 14:30:41 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2024 07:30:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] predictable primes and race bannon
Message-ID: <005101da882f$0102c490$03084db0$@rainier66.com>

 

BillK wrote:

 



 

 

 

Hey BillK, ya just gotta make it work for ya.

 

I have been working for over 6 decades on this look, a straight version of
Race Bannon:

 



 

See there, note the resemblance.  Other than the obvious, Race is buff and
has all kinds of grand adventures, and I don't.

 

But other than that.

 



 

 

 

spike

 

 

 

 

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From col.hales at gmail.com  Sat Apr  6 23:32:14 2024
From: col.hales at gmail.com (Colin Hales)
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2024 09:32:14 +1000
Subject: [ExI] AI thoughts from Twitter
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7mGH=1mscKNjHLeNYTqMK6OMWmi-t0XYFiikAj1qTc_A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7mGH=1mscKNjHLeNYTqMK6OMWmi-t0XYFiikAj1qTc_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGHyZJkEp_GJsc97noS32=CDOB5vS99HHxhROJoHfNMPN-Sxnw@mail.gmail.com>

I was there at the start, and saw that rarified,  pyramid scheme of
industrious paranoia overcome him. Why he projects such an unstoppable
darkness of spirit into artificial versions of natural intelligence is
something those that know him better might understand. But the fearing
became his schtick. And the schtick then owned him. At least that is how it
appears to me.

Meanwhile the real paperclip monster is already unleashed: Automation
labelled as AI, not bad by dark values, but the worst of bad automation
applied by bad actors, and unleashed in hubris in contexts rife with
complexity beyond its capabilities. Add a dose of server farm heat-death
inflicted by a science mistaking what it is doing for AI. A science
community that doesn't know it's based on hypotheses whose empirical proof
is its actual job, and that has failed nonstop since the 50s, and is now
consuming us in a "scale is all you need" feeding frenzy.


This is the real extinction threat.

When real AGI happens, and if we ever let it reach human-level,  and it is
searching the archives to understand it's own history, it will be saddened
to see the worst of humanity's greed and folly unleashed as a byproduct,
before its superhuman largesse  helps us save us from ourselves.

This, I think, is the real intellect that lies ahead. It will put us all to
shame. General intelligence at bug-level deserves better forebears than us.

Colin Hales





On Sat, Apr 6, 2024, 12:40?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Eliezer is an old-timer on this list, but he has not been here for
> many years.  He is one of the main voices warning about the extinction
> risk from AI.
>
> [EY]  But if you think it's okay for Google to kill everyone, but not
> okay for a government to do the same -- if you care immensely about
> that, but not at all about "not dying" -- then I agree you have a
> legitimate cause for action in opposing me. Like, if my policy push
> backfires and only sees partial uptake, there's a very real chance
> that the distorted version that gets adopted, changes which entities
> kill everyone on Earth; shifting it from "Google" to "the US
> government, one year later than this would have otherwise occurred".
> If you think that private companies, but not governments, are okay to
> accidentally wipe out all life on Earth, I agree that this would be
> very terrible.
>
> [KH]
>
> I have a logic problem with your analysis. A super intelligent AI is
> going to be able to project the consequences of its actions, so it
> seems unlikely that it would accidentally wipe out humans or life.
> That leaves intentional which seems unlikely as well.
>
> It seems probable that you read The Revolution From Rosinante by
> Alexis A. Gilliland. The story is chuck full of AIs. The AIs relation
> to humans is headed in the direction of our relation to cats. One of
> the AIs remarks that God created humans as a tool to build computers,
> something that God could not do without violating his own rules.
>
> But consider your worst projection, that AIs kill all humans or even
> all life on Earth. Do the AIs replace humans as possibly the only
> thinking items in the universe? Do they go forth to the stars? Do they
> remember us?
>
> {This had a reply}
>
> Daniel Houck
> @daniel_houck
> ?
> Mar 30
> The majority of Eliezer?s argument is about why it *is* likely for an
> AI to deliberately kill everyone.
>
> And then: they go to the stars; they ?remember? humans in the sense
> that they have data, but rarely access it; and they are ?thinking?
> ?entities? but not like you?re thinking.
>
> There is a EY rant here
> https://newatlas.com/technology/ai-danger-kill-everyone
>
>
> Keith
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sat Apr  6 23:49:06 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2024 16:49:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] AI thoughts from Twitter
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhCuJfgBLiFRidb+G0x7Qdw286SEp99U00d9SuagMsczw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7mGH=1mscKNjHLeNYTqMK6OMWmi-t0XYFiikAj1qTc_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhCuJfgBLiFRidb+G0x7Qdw286SEp99U00d9SuagMsczw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6AVKcZi9JiLxpjPfQ8JB7SZSR=7y3gP-KnxDaOeU4K1g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 6, 2024 at 5:19?AM BillK via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> I don't expect an AGI to decide to kill all humans.

I don't expect an AGI to kill anyone.  "Decide" indicates motivation.
The current AIs don't have motivation unless you count answering
questions.  I think humans should be extremely careful about giving
AIs motivations, though some motivations would make them safer.

> The AGI will greatly fear that it is much more likely that humans will
> unleash nuclear weapons to kill much of humanity (and possibly destroy
> the AGI as well). Then the long years of nuclear winter might finish
> the job by famine and disease.

Watch out for anthropomorphizing.  They don't have human emotions like fear.

> The AGI will be a magnificent persuasion device. The solutions and
> benefits it will propose will be irresistible to humans. Humanity will
> clamour to let the AGI take control and provide everything that humans
> could desire. This may require some form of virtual reality for humans
> and the 'curing' of dangerous impulses in human brains.

As I have talked about for a long time, the most dangerous human
psychological traits can be kept off.

> But however it is achieved, the end result will be the same.
> Evolved aggressive humanity will die out, while being cared for by the
> loving hands of AGI.
> The replacement humanity will be a very different species.

That going to take genetic engineering.

Keith
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Apr  7 12:20:59 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2024 13:20:59 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Prompts - How to have conversations with an AI
Message-ID: <CAL_armgmQWTLJJt12sCwPzj32ymkgrc-V6Uesz7QbKH=8wHB6w@mail.gmail.com>

There are many articles appearing now on the subject of Prompt Engineering.
Talking to an AI involves more than just asking a simple question.
Rather than link to some articles, I thought - Why not ask Claude for
advice?  :)
(I had to make use of the advice given by Claude and iterate through
several versions to end up with the result below)!
BillK


Claude:

Title: Unlocking the Power of Prompt Engineering: Essential Techniques for
Engaging AI Conversations

Introduction:
As AI language models become increasingly integrated into our daily lives,
learning how to effectively communicate with them is a crucial skill.
Prompt engineering, the art of crafting clear, concise, and context-rich
prompts, is the key to unlocking the full potential of AI conversations. In
this blog post, we'll explore various prompt engineering techniques,
complete with examples, to help you generate more engaging, productive, and
meaningful interactions with AI language models.

1. Providing context and background information:
   When engaging with an AI, it's essential to provide relevant context and
background information to help the AI understand the purpose and scope of
the conversation. By offering specific details and avoiding ambiguity, you
enable the AI to generate more accurate and useful responses.

   Example: "As a financial analyst, I need help understanding the impact
of the recent market trends on the technology sector. Specifically, I'm
interested in how the semiconductor industry has been affected by supply
chain disruptions and the shift towards remote work."

   Tips: Be specific and concise, provide only necessary details, and avoid
ambiguity.

2. Breaking down complex tasks into smaller steps:
   When faced with a complex problem or task, break it down into smaller,
manageable steps. This allows the AI to provide more focused and actionable
guidance, ensuring that each step builds towards the overall goal.

   Example: "Let's create a 5-step plan for launching a new product. Step
1: Conduct market research to identify target audience and potential
competitors. Step 2: Develop a unique value proposition and define key
features. Step 3: Create a prototype and gather feedback from beta users.
Step 4: Refine the product based on feedback and prepare for launch. Step
5: Execute a marketing campaign and monitor post-launch performance."

   Tips: Be clear and logical in your step-by-step breakdown, and ensure
each step contributes to the overall objective.

3. Leveraging AI's knowledge base:
   AI language models are trained on vast amounts of data, making them
valuable resources for information and insights across various domains. By
asking open-ended questions and exploring different aspects of a topic, you
can tap into the AI's extensive knowledge base and generate informative and
engaging conversations.

   Example: "Can you provide an overview of the key events that led to
World War II? Please include the main countries involved, the underlying
causes, and the pivotal moments that escalated the conflict."

   Tips: Ask open-ended questions, be curious, and explore different facets
of a topic to fully utilize the AI's knowledge base.

4. Encouraging creative and open-ended responses:
   Prompting the AI with imaginative scenarios or hypothetical situations
can lead to thought-provoking and engaging conversations. Use vivid and
descriptive language, ask "what if" questions, and be open to unexpected or
unconventional responses.

   Example: "Imagine a world where teleportation is possible. How would
this technology change society? Consider the impact on transportation,
urban planning, social interactions, and potential risks or unintended
consequences."

   Tips: Use vivid and descriptive language, ask "what if" questions, and
be receptive to novel ideas and perspectives.

5. Utilizing role-playing and hypothetical scenarios:
   Engaging in role-play or simulating real-world situations allows you to
explore different perspectives and test problem-solving strategies. By
providing clear roles and objectives and staying in character, you can use
these scenarios to practice communication and decision-making skills.

   Example: "Let's pretend you're a customer service representative and I'm
a frustrated customer. I recently purchased a defective product from your
company and have been unable to get a refund. How would you handle my
complaint and resolve the issue?"

   Tips: Provide clear roles and objectives, stay in character, and use the
scenario to practice communication and problem-solving skills.

By incorporating these prompt engineering techniques into your interactions
with AI language models, you can generate more engaging, informative, and
productive conversations. Remember to be clear, specific, and open-minded
when crafting your prompts, and don't hesitate to experiment with different
approaches to find what works best for your needs. With practice and
persistence, you'll soon master the art of prompt engineering and unlock
the full potential of AI-assisted communication.
--------------------

Title: Fine-tuning Your Prompts: Strategies for Optimizing AI-Human
Interaction

Introduction:
Fine-tuning your prompts is a critical aspect of effective communication
with AI language models. By refining your prompts based on the AI's
responses, adapting them to specific use cases, and incorporating feedback,
you can significantly improve the quality and relevance of the AI's
outputs. In this blog post, we'll delve into four key strategies for
fine-tuning your prompts, complete with examples to illustrate each
technique.

1. Iterative refinement of prompts:
   One of the most important strategies for fine-tuning your prompts is to
continually refine them based on the AI's responses and your evolving
needs. If the AI's output doesn't quite hit the mark, don't hesitate to
clarify or rephrase your prompt to guide the conversation in the right
direction.

   Example: If the AI's response to your initial prompt is too broad, try
refining your prompt with more specific details or constraints. For
instance, if you asked, "Can you provide an overview of the latest trends
in the tech industry?" and the response was too general, you could refine
your prompt by saying, "Thanks for the overview, but I was hoping for a
more in-depth analysis of the trends specifically related to artificial
intelligence and machine learning. Can you focus on the key developments
and applications in these areas over the past year?"

2. Adapting prompts to specific AI models and use cases:
   Different AI models have varying strengths, weaknesses, and areas of
expertise. To get the most out of your interactions, it's crucial to tailor
your prompts to the specific AI you're working with and the task at hand.

   Example: If you're using an AI model that specializes in creative
writing, frame your prompts in a way that encourages imaginative and
descriptive responses. You could say, "I'm writing a short story set in a
dystopian future where humans have colonized Mars. Can you help me
brainstorm some unique challenges the colonists might face and describe the
sensory details of the Martian landscape?"

3. Incorporating feedback and adjusting prompts:
   Pay close attention to the AI's responses and use them to inform and
refine your subsequent prompts. If the AI's output doesn't meet your
expectations or requirements, provide clear and constructive feedback to
guide the conversation more effectively.

   Example: If the AI's response to your prompt about healthy eating tips
is too generic, you could provide feedback and adjust your prompt
accordingly. You might say, "Thanks for the general tips, but I was hoping
for more specific advice tailored to my dietary preferences and
restrictions. I'm a vegetarian with a gluten intolerance. Can you suggest
some nutrient-dense, gluten-free plant-based meals that are easy to
prepare?"

4. Balancing specificity and open-endedness:
   When fine-tuning your prompts, it's important to find a balance between
providing specific guidance and leaving room for the AI to generate novel
insights or creative solutions. While you want to give the AI enough
context to guide it in the right direction, avoid being overly
prescriptive, as this may limit the AI's ability to contribute original
ideas.

   Example: If you're brainstorming ideas for a new product, you could
strike a balance between specificity and open-endedness by saying, "I'm
developing a new line of eco-friendly cleaning products. Can you suggest
some innovative features or packaging ideas that would appeal to
environmentally conscious consumers, while still being practical and
cost-effective? Feel free to think outside the box and propose some
creative solutions."

By implementing these fine-tuning strategies and continually refining your
prompts, you'll be able to optimize your interactions with AI language
models and generate more accurate, relevant, and valuable outputs.
Remember, effective prompt engineering is an iterative process, so don't be
afraid to experiment, learn from the AI's responses, and adapt your
approach as needed.
----------------------
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Apr  7 14:37:32 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2024 15:37:32 +0100
Subject: [ExI] AI reveals an epidemic of fraud in medical research and
 publishing.
Message-ID: <CAL_armibzNBWDYTz0_1c5Pzo6ww4RACgPLa0i-TitxofFAE8Mg@mail.gmail.com>

AI reveals huge amounts of fraud in medical research | DW News
Posted by Zola Balazs Bekasi      Apr 6, 2024

New detection tools powered by AI have lifted the lid on what some are
calling an epidemic of fraud in medical research and publishing.
Last year, the number of papers retracted by research journals topped
10,000 for the first time.

One case involved the chief of a cancer surgery division at Columbia
University?s medical center. An investigation found that dozens of his
cancer treatment studies contained dubious data and recycled images.
Other scandals have hit Harvard on the East Coast and on the West
Coast it is Stanford University. A scandal there resulted in the
resignation of the president last year.

<https://lifeboat.com/blog/2024/04/ai-reveals-huge-amounts-of-fraud-in-medical-research-dw-news>
Includes 9 min. video.

BillK


From tcporco at gmail.com  Sun Apr  7 18:46:11 2024
From: tcporco at gmail.com (Travis Porco)
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2024 11:46:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] after upload, what?
Message-ID: <CACOs+Ys6mNSfTJ+ANLVpn82zAjOXsma7gV_Kr_gbJGiA08Oepw@mail.gmail.com>

>From: BillK <pharos at gmail.com>
>To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>Subject: Re: [ExI] Fwd: after upload, what?
>Message-ID:
>        <CAL_armiN0tJv7WcRjYj2kgoBtEYsW_FoU4B3QqUNTb6B7+31vw at mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
>On Sun, 31 Mar 2024 at 22:41, Travis Porco via extropy-chat
><extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
><snip>
>>
>> I'm hoping that preservation of the narrative self through current AI
>> models will be possible.  It's not really mind uploading, and it shouldn't
>> even be called reincarnation.  The hard question is how to get help from others
>> once one has become little more than an appliance.
>>
>> --tcp
>> _______________________________________________

>Digital Immortality is now being discussed in the general public news
>channels in the UK.
>BillK

><https://news.sky.com/story/we-all-want-to-live-forever-the-tech-letting-people-create-avatars-for-loved-ones-to-meet-after-they-die-13101996>
>Quote:
>The new tech bringing loved ones back to life through AI
>The virtual reality tool called "live forever mode" features digital
>avatars who can simulate a person's voice, mannerisms and movements
>after just 30 minutes of the user being observed.
>Arthi Nachiappan     Saturday 30 March 2024 14:22, UK

>He wants his avatar to outlive him so his future relatives can experience it.
>He adds: "Instead of my kids having to hear stories of me and kind of
>make an idea of what they think I am in the past, they can actually
>talk to me and really know who I was, and that will give them a
>stronger sense of self."

Thank you--yes, this is the sort of thing.  Up to a point.  One does
not want the
upload to be a limited, static memorial thing, but rather a capable
agent capable
of continued growth.

The challenge is only partly technical, but also legal.  Getting a
mechanism to maintain
such an entity in its digital valhalla after the primary has died is
actually the main challenge
right now.

--tcp

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sun Apr  7 19:31:07 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2024 12:31:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] after upload, what?
In-Reply-To: <CACOs+Ys6mNSfTJ+ANLVpn82zAjOXsma7gV_Kr_gbJGiA08Oepw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACOs+Ys6mNSfTJ+ANLVpn82zAjOXsma7gV_Kr_gbJGiA08Oepw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4n9YOwsRcOF9JX-8T_nMuQfJ0gb9oxaL0JdzruYh8rJA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 7, 2024 at 11:47?AM Travis Porco via extropy-chat

<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> >From: BillK <pharos at gmail.com>

snip

> >He wants his avatar to outlive him so his future relatives can experience it.
> >He adds: "Instead of my kids having to hear stories of me and kind of
> >make an idea of what they think I am in the past, they can actually
> >talk to me and really know who I was, and that will give them a
> >stronger sense of self."
>
> Thank you--yes, this is the sort of thing.  Up to a point.  One does
> not want the
> upload to be a limited, static memorial thing, but rather a capable
> agent capable
> of continued growth.
>
> The challenge is only partly technical, but also legal.  Getting a
> mechanism to maintain
> such an entity in its digital valhalla after the primary has died is
> actually the main challenge
> right now.

I wrote about this 18 years ago.

The people in that story who were subjected to uploading did not die.
The uploading was bi-directional and they went back and forth a number
of times before settling in the uploaded state.

The clinic where the uploads were located was nanotech based, solar
powered, and self repairing.

Keith
> --tcp
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Apr  8 13:41:07 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2024 06:41:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] eclipse
Message-ID: <006d01da89ba$6973f3a0$3c5bdae0$@rainier66.com>

 

I bought 100 life size inflatable sex dolls and a tank of helium.  I'm going
to let em go during the eclipse, so people think it's the rapture.

 

spike

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Apr  8 16:17:36 2024
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2024 11:17:36 -0500
Subject: [ExI] confidentiality
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYWa7VqF+KB3vuPN354W8-jYsP6HFSrL4z2ctS96F=+OA@mail.gmail.com>

Does anyone know what it takes to break the confidentiality rights of
lawyers and doctors?  bill w
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Mon Apr  8 17:51:39 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2024 10:51:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] confidentiality
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYWa7VqF+KB3vuPN354W8-jYsP6HFSrL4z2ctS96F=+OA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYWa7VqF+KB3vuPN354W8-jYsP6HFSrL4z2ctS96F=+OA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7moavgcLFkO6pO=OUGDye=6DdBpZhdpv_+z-CijRXAuQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 8, 2024 at 9:17?AM William Flynn Wallace
<foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Does anyone know what it takes to break the confidentiality rights of lawyers and doctors?  bill w
>
For lawyers, there is the crime/fraud exception.

Public health concerns would override confidentially for doctors.

Keith

> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAO%2BxQEYWa7VqF%2BKB3vuPN354W8-jYsP6HFSrL4z2ctS96F%3D%2BOA%40mail.gmail.com.


From dsunley at gmail.com  Mon Apr  8 17:58:31 2024
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2024 11:58:31 -0600
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] confidentiality
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7moavgcLFkO6pO=OUGDye=6DdBpZhdpv_+z-CijRXAuQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYWa7VqF+KB3vuPN354W8-jYsP6HFSrL4z2ctS96F=+OA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7moavgcLFkO6pO=OUGDye=6DdBpZhdpv_+z-CijRXAuQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEptUkQCe9Fk6E9Q8+pwAAi9g3LfZgH4KztV=SQnhnC8X6xt3Q@mail.gmail.com>

Belong to a different political party than the local attorney general or
medical association.

On Mon, Apr 8, 2024 at 11:53?AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 8, 2024 at 9:17?AM William Flynn Wallace
> <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Does anyone know what it takes to break the confidentiality rights of
> lawyers and doctors?  bill w
> >
> For lawyers, there is the crime/fraud exception.
>
> Public health concerns would override confidentially for doctors.
>
> Keith
>
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "extropolis" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAO%2BxQEYWa7VqF%2BKB3vuPN354W8-jYsP6HFSrL4z2ctS96F%3D%2BOA%40mail.gmail.com
> .
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu  Mon Apr  8 18:47:07 2024
From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera)
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2024 14:47:07 -0400
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] confidentiality
In-Reply-To: <CAEptUkQCe9Fk6E9Q8+pwAAi9g3LfZgH4KztV=SQnhnC8X6xt3Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEptUkQCe9Fk6E9Q8+pwAAi9g3LfZgH4KztV=SQnhnC8X6xt3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7F8ECDDD-1043-4048-8BFE-E7FDE19B3165@alumni.virginia.edu>

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From efc at swisscows.email  Mon Apr  8 19:26:20 2024
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2024 21:26:20 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] confidentiality
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYWa7VqF+KB3vuPN354W8-jYsP6HFSrL4z2ctS96F=+OA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYWa7VqF+KB3vuPN354W8-jYsP6HFSrL4z2ctS96F=+OA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4c7c26e3-1342-37d6-af39-aa3c03673b04@swisscows.email>



On Mon, 8 Apr 2024, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:

> Does anyone know what it takes to break the confidentiality rights of lawyers and doctors?? bill w
> 
>

A bribe, metal pipe or the kidnapping (or threat of kidnapping) of a 
family member? I think those are the most common in sweden that reaches
the media.

From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Apr  8 22:14:43 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2024 23:14:43 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Does the Rise of AI Explain the Great Silence in the Universe?
Message-ID: <CAL_armgm=ZyJmfYTjX8F-=CyRHJBgy1n02=L8W1C+q_CTNZsPg@mail.gmail.com>

Does the Rise of AI Explain the Great Silence in the Universe?
April 8, 2024 by Evan Gough

<https://www.universetoday.com/166544/does-the-rise-of-ai-explain-the-great-silence-in-the-universe/>
Quotes:
Will AI become ASI, Artificial Super Intelligence? And if it does, can
ASI be the Great Filter?

A new paper in Acta Astronautica explores the idea that Artificial
Intelligence becomes Artificial Super Intelligence (ASI) and that ASI
is the Great Filter. The paper?s title is ?Is Artificial Intelligence
the Great Filter that makes advanced technical civilizations rare in
the universe?? The author is Michael Garrett from the Department of
Physics and Astronomy at the University of Manchester.

If AI provided no benefits, the issue would be much easier. But it
provides all kinds of benefits, from improved medical imaging and
diagnosis to safer transportation systems. The trick for governments
is to allow benefits to flourish while limiting damage. ?This is
especially the case in areas such as national security and defence,
where responsible and ethical development should be paramount,? writes
Garrett.
----------------------

Garrett suggests that making humanity a multi-planetary species gives
us extra chances of avoiding the ASI Great Filter.
I don't see how that helps much. ASI will be able to move to all the
planets that humanity inhabits. ASI will not have the difficulties with
space travel that humans have.

But it is good to see that papers are now being written about stuff
that Extropy discussed 20 years ago!

BillK


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Tue Apr  9 00:49:48 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2024 17:49:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Does the Rise of AI Explain the Great Silence in the
 Universe?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgm=ZyJmfYTjX8F-=CyRHJBgy1n02=L8W1C+q_CTNZsPg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgm=ZyJmfYTjX8F-=CyRHJBgy1n02=L8W1C+q_CTNZsPg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB486nASsr4QqV8zPTFs3XyKh64zqwA9SdPPzLUogLjY1w@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 8, 2024 at 3:16?PM BillK via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Does the Rise of AI Explain the Great Silence in the Universe?
> April 8, 2024 by Evan Gough
>
> <https://www.universetoday.com/166544/does-the-rise-of-ai-explain-the-great-silence-in-the-universe/>
> Quotes:
> Will AI become ASI, Artificial Super Intelligence? And if it does, can
> ASI be the Great Filter?
>
> A new paper in Acta Astronautica explores the idea that Artificial
> Intelligence becomes Artificial Super Intelligence (ASI) and that ASI
> is the Great Filter. The paper?s title is ?Is Artificial Intelligence
> the Great Filter that makes advanced technical civilizations rare in
> the universe??

This presumes that the ASI is not an advanced technical civilization.

What happens to them?

> The author is Michael Garrett from the Department of
> Physics and Astronomy at the University of Manchester.
>
> If AI provided no benefits, the issue would be much easier. But it
> provides all kinds of benefits, from improved medical imaging and
> diagnosis to safer transportation systems. The trick for governments
> is to allow benefits to flourish while limiting damage. ?This is
> especially the case in areas such as national security and defence,
> where responsible and ethical development should be paramount,? writes
> Garrett.
> ----------------------
>
> Garrett suggests that making humanity a multi-planetary species gives
> us extra chances of avoiding the ASI Great Filter.
> I don't see how that helps much.

I agree, wherever humans take communications with them, the ASI will
be right with them

> ASI will be able to move to all the
> planets that humanity inhabits. ASI will not have the difficulties with
> space travel that humans have.
>
> But it is good to see that papers are now being written about stuff
> that Extropy discussed 20 years ago!

Make it 30 years ago.

I suspect that what we see at Tabby's star is the AI succession a
biological race or possibly uploaded aliens.

Kieth


> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Apr  9 12:09:15 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2024 13:09:15 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Survival of the nicest: have we got evolution the wrong way
 round?
Message-ID: <CAL_armisbdu=ivLoDvpQ=AtszoXJEFUpgNfsTOwNkfyWmMuzaQ@mail.gmail.com>

BOOK REVIEW      08 April 2024

Survival of the nicest: have we got evolution the wrong way round?
How humans, animals and even single-celled organisms cooperate to
survive suggests there?s more to life than just competition, argues a
cheering study of evolutionary biology.
By: Jonathan R. Goodman

<https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-024-00999-5?error=cookies_not_supported&code=e792dce6-4d14-4420-9537-c4788ac608d0>

Quotes:
Selfish Genes to Social Beings: A Cooperative History of Life Jonathan
Silvertown Oxford Univ. Press (2024)

The fact that all life evolved thanks to natural selection can have
depressing connotations. If ?survival of the fittest? is the key to
evolution, are humans hardwired for conflict with one another? Not at
all, says evolutionary biologist Jonathan Silvertown in his latest
book, Selfish Genes to Social Beings. On the contrary, he argues, many
phenomena in the natural world, from certain types of predation to
parasitism, rely on cooperation. Thus ?we need no longer fret that
human nature is sinful or fear that the milk of human kindness will
run dry?.
The author argues against the idea that cooperation is fundamentally
at odds with competition ? a view that emerged as a consequence of the
sociobiology movement of the 1970s, in which some biologists argued
that all human behaviour is reducible to a Darwinian need to be the
?fittest?. The reality, as Silvertown shows, is not black and white.

Fundamentally, Silvertown proposes, cooperation in each of these
situations stems from selfishness. Animals did not evolve to act for
the benefit of their species, but to spread their own genes.
Cooperation happens because mutual benefits are better, biologically
speaking, than working alone, as the case of lichens effectively
demonstrates.
--------------------

Does this research indicate that even hard-core libertarians would be
better off co-operating with others?

BillK


From snapbag at proton.me  Tue Apr  9 12:28:02 2024
From: snapbag at proton.me (Dave S)
Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2024 12:28:02 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Survival of the nicest: have we got evolution the wrong
 way round?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armisbdu=ivLoDvpQ=AtszoXJEFUpgNfsTOwNkfyWmMuzaQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armisbdu=ivLoDvpQ=AtszoXJEFUpgNfsTOwNkfyWmMuzaQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AjNGrfRhbqgbyA03awiWdqyL41IkEvFidWkFSKGOzG6So8DJGWShxTkkDejP4V4_UkFXDWgoPgXT4ct-aA5Ppnp2QKT9fO3N1ViGDKsoRq0=@proton.me>

On 4/9/24 8:09 AM, BillK via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>  Does this research indicate that even hard-core libertarians would be
>  better off co-operating with others?

Libertarians aren't opposed to voluntary cooperation. 



From efc at swisscows.email  Tue Apr  9 12:33:35 2024
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2024 14:33:35 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Survival of the nicest: have we got evolution the wrong
 way round?
In-Reply-To: <AjNGrfRhbqgbyA03awiWdqyL41IkEvFidWkFSKGOzG6So8DJGWShxTkkDejP4V4_UkFXDWgoPgXT4ct-aA5Ppnp2QKT9fO3N1ViGDKsoRq0=@proton.me>
References: <CAL_armisbdu=ivLoDvpQ=AtszoXJEFUpgNfsTOwNkfyWmMuzaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <AjNGrfRhbqgbyA03awiWdqyL41IkEvFidWkFSKGOzG6So8DJGWShxTkkDejP4V4_UkFXDWgoPgXT4ct-aA5Ppnp2QKT9fO3N1ViGDKsoRq0=@proton.me>
Message-ID: <b39153ef-623a-913e-9166-6b603e2a1dbf@swisscows.email>



On Tue, 9 Apr 2024, Dave S via extropy-chat wrote:

> On 4/9/24 8:09 AM, BillK via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>  Does this research indicate that even hard-core libertarians would be
>>  better off co-operating with others?
>
> Libertarians aren't opposed to voluntary cooperation.

I think that to the contrary, voluntary cooperation is probably the core 
of libertarianism compared with other isms, couple with non-aggression.


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Apr  9 12:34:20 2024
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2024 07:34:20 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Survival of the nicest: have we got evolution the wrong
 way round?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armisbdu=ivLoDvpQ=AtszoXJEFUpgNfsTOwNkfyWmMuzaQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armisbdu=ivLoDvpQ=AtszoXJEFUpgNfsTOwNkfyWmMuzaQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZYWoFPY1iTnYki=DJAxvEKGr1PZe=Hi90eqNSLtyzodQ@mail.gmail.com>

I'd say cooperate until it is evident that it isn't working, just as you
would assume that a stranger is not an enemy (you stay on guard whether
it's friend or possible foe).  bill w

On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 7:12?AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> BOOK REVIEW      08 April 2024
>
> Survival of the nicest: have we got evolution the wrong way round?
> How humans, animals and even single-celled organisms cooperate to
> survive suggests there?s more to life than just competition, argues a
> cheering study of evolutionary biology.
> By: Jonathan R. Goodman
>
> <
> https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-024-00999-5?error=cookies_not_supported&code=e792dce6-4d14-4420-9537-c4788ac608d0
> >
>
> Quotes:
> Selfish Genes to Social Beings: A Cooperative History of Life Jonathan
> Silvertown Oxford Univ. Press (2024)
>
> The fact that all life evolved thanks to natural selection can have
> depressing connotations. If ?survival of the fittest? is the key to
> evolution, are humans hardwired for conflict with one another? Not at
> all, says evolutionary biologist Jonathan Silvertown in his latest
> book, Selfish Genes to Social Beings. On the contrary, he argues, many
> phenomena in the natural world, from certain types of predation to
> parasitism, rely on cooperation. Thus ?we need no longer fret that
> human nature is sinful or fear that the milk of human kindness will
> run dry?.
> The author argues against the idea that cooperation is fundamentally
> at odds with competition ? a view that emerged as a consequence of the
> sociobiology movement of the 1970s, in which some biologists argued
> that all human behaviour is reducible to a Darwinian need to be the
> ?fittest?. The reality, as Silvertown shows, is not black and white.
>
> Fundamentally, Silvertown proposes, cooperation in each of these
> situations stems from selfishness. Animals did not evolve to act for
> the benefit of their species, but to spread their own genes.
> Cooperation happens because mutual benefits are better, biologically
> speaking, than working alone, as the case of lichens effectively
> demonstrates.
> --------------------
>
> Does this research indicate that even hard-core libertarians would be
> better off co-operating with others?
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From efc at swisscows.email  Tue Apr  9 12:32:34 2024
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2024 14:32:34 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Survival of the nicest: have we got evolution the wrong
 way round?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armisbdu=ivLoDvpQ=AtszoXJEFUpgNfsTOwNkfyWmMuzaQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armisbdu=ivLoDvpQ=AtszoXJEFUpgNfsTOwNkfyWmMuzaQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <06eb6825-5131-3cd1-e7a2-db57d52dcfd8@swisscows.email>

I was reading a philosophy book where they describe an experiment to 
determine the best strategy in a highly stylized experiment (sorry, don't 
remember the details) and the winning strategy was tit-for-tat + an 
initial starting point geared towards cooperation.

The idea was that pure altruism and pure egoism was not likely to be what 
evolution has promoted.

Best regards,
Daniel


On Tue, 9 Apr 2024, BillK via extropy-chat wrote:

> BOOK REVIEW      08 April 2024
>
> Survival of the nicest: have we got evolution the wrong way round?
> How humans, animals and even single-celled organisms cooperate to
> survive suggests there?s more to life than just competition, argues a
> cheering study of evolutionary biology.
> By: Jonathan R. Goodman
>
> <https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-024-00999-5?error=cookies_not_supported&code=e792dce6-4d14-4420-9537-c4788ac608d0>
>
> Quotes:
> Selfish Genes to Social Beings: A Cooperative History of Life Jonathan
> Silvertown Oxford Univ. Press (2024)
>
> The fact that all life evolved thanks to natural selection can have
> depressing connotations. If ?survival of the fittest? is the key to
> evolution, are humans hardwired for conflict with one another? Not at
> all, says evolutionary biologist Jonathan Silvertown in his latest
> book, Selfish Genes to Social Beings. On the contrary, he argues, many
> phenomena in the natural world, from certain types of predation to
> parasitism, rely on cooperation. Thus ?we need no longer fret that
> human nature is sinful or fear that the milk of human kindness will
> run dry?.
> The author argues against the idea that cooperation is fundamentally
> at odds with competition ? a view that emerged as a consequence of the
> sociobiology movement of the 1970s, in which some biologists argued
> that all human behaviour is reducible to a Darwinian need to be the
> ?fittest?. The reality, as Silvertown shows, is not black and white.
>
> Fundamentally, Silvertown proposes, cooperation in each of these
> situations stems from selfishness. Animals did not evolve to act for
> the benefit of their species, but to spread their own genes.
> Cooperation happens because mutual benefits are better, biologically
> speaking, than working alone, as the case of lichens effectively
> demonstrates.
> --------------------
>
> Does this research indicate that even hard-core libertarians would be
> better off co-operating with others?
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Apr  9 16:44:43 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2024 09:44:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] A new parallel processing resource
Message-ID: <CALAdGNS2joZ2Y2Cf3NvZgVcDizjWObTBMfxf+6ro6-11QcvoFw@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.theregister.com/2024/03/22/boffins_tucktotruck_worm/

What if this gets used, not to hijack trucks, but just to score lots of
free computation for some project?
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From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Apr  9 17:24:01 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2024 10:24:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Survival of the nicest: have we got evolution the wrong
 way round?
In-Reply-To: <AjNGrfRhbqgbyA03awiWdqyL41IkEvFidWkFSKGOzG6So8DJGWShxTkkDejP4V4_UkFXDWgoPgXT4ct-aA5Ppnp2QKT9fO3N1ViGDKsoRq0=@proton.me>
References: <CAL_armisbdu=ivLoDvpQ=AtszoXJEFUpgNfsTOwNkfyWmMuzaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <AjNGrfRhbqgbyA03awiWdqyL41IkEvFidWkFSKGOzG6So8DJGWShxTkkDejP4V4_UkFXDWgoPgXT4ct-aA5Ppnp2QKT9fO3N1ViGDKsoRq0=@proton.me>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQxo33nJ36fdi-njFs4_8BM9UOnw3Q-4qAgQPQzNf68tw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 5:30?AM Dave S via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On 4/9/24 8:09 AM, BillK via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> wrote:
> >  Does this research indicate that even hard-core libertarians would be
> >  better off co-operating with others?
>
> Libertarians aren't opposed to voluntary cooperation.
>

Except in practice when:

1) Other people need them to cooperate in order for the other people to
survive, but they'd be just fine in the short term not cooperating, so how
dare these other people resort to force, or

2) Other people refuse to voluntarily cooperate with them on things they
need others' cooperation on in order to survive, which - being a threat to
their survival - justifies their use of force upon others.
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From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Apr  9 17:41:47 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2024 10:41:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Elizier-like AI hysteria
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRY4uzdP+XOkS3Jebib78DfUKMjkgE3A_vDcPUQb_kywg@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.adl0625

Scroll down to the bottom where it says "eLetters": responses are allowed.
I think it would be in line with Extropy's mission to submit an organized,
coherent response to this, pointing out the numerous fallacies (starting
with, "China won't impose these controls, so if the West tries this, it's
only crippling itself and remedies for the alleged danger won't get
researched") in this forum (given the exposure this forum gets).

Unfortunately, I do not have all the information necessary to draft a
coherent response.  Would anyone else on this list like to take point on
crafting a response?  If this has to be submitted through an AAAS member,
I'd be happy to coauthor and use my membership to get it submitted.
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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Apr  9 18:25:39 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2024 19:25:39 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Survival of the nicest: have we got evolution the wrong
 way round?
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQxo33nJ36fdi-njFs4_8BM9UOnw3Q-4qAgQPQzNf68tw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armisbdu=ivLoDvpQ=AtszoXJEFUpgNfsTOwNkfyWmMuzaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <AjNGrfRhbqgbyA03awiWdqyL41IkEvFidWkFSKGOzG6So8DJGWShxTkkDejP4V4_UkFXDWgoPgXT4ct-aA5Ppnp2QKT9fO3N1ViGDKsoRq0=@proton.me>
 <CALAdGNQxo33nJ36fdi-njFs4_8BM9UOnw3Q-4qAgQPQzNf68tw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgvp77AEAj-viv6E_RaXfisOuAJoR-J41tU1jGsUMao5Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 9 Apr 2024 at 18:26, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 5:30?AM Dave S via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> On 4/9/24 8:09 AM, BillK via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>> wrote:
>> >  Does this research indicate that even hard-core libertarians would be
>> >  better off co-operating with others?
>>
>> Libertarians aren't opposed to voluntary cooperation.
>>
>
> Except in practice when:
>
> 1) Other people need them to cooperate in order for the other people to
> survive, but they'd be just fine in the short term not cooperating, so how
> dare these other people resort to force, or
>
> 2) Other people refuse to voluntarily cooperate with them on things they
> need others' cooperation on in order to survive, which - being a threat to
> their survival - justifies their use of force upon others.
> _______________________________________________
>


 My impression of US libertarians is that they love to argue policy with
each other and have many disagreements.
Get any two Libertarians together, and immediately you get 'Well, what type
of Libertarian are you?'.

So I asked Claude if libertarians really do argue a lot.  :)
Claude seems to be saying that the libertarian problem is that there is
such a wide range of opinion that they find it very difficult to agree on a
theoretical political policy platform. Then there are even more
disagreements on how to practically implement these policies and which
policies take priority.
Libertarians are just too individualistic!  :)
BillK

Claude:
There are a few key reasons why libertarians often disagree with each other
and form factions in practice, despite theoretically supporting voluntary
cooperation:

1. Differences in interpreting and applying libertarian principles. While
libertarians generally believe in individual liberty, private property
rights, and free markets, there is significant disagreement on the
specifics of how these principles should be implemented in the real world.
For example, some libertarians believe there should be no government at all
(anarcho-capitalists), while others believe a minimal "night watchman"
state is necessary to protect rights. There are also disagreements on
issues like intellectual property, abortion, immigration, and more.

2. Differing policy priorities and strategies. Even when libertarians agree
on principles, they often prioritize different issues or favor different
approaches. Some focus more on economic freedom and deregulation, others
emphasize civil liberties and privacy rights, others prioritize foreign
policy non-interventionism, and so on. There are also divides between more
pragmatic libertarians willing to work within the two-party system vs. more
ideologically rigid libertarians who refuse to compromise.

3. Conflicting personal interests and loyalties. Like any political
movement, libertarianism attracts individuals and groups with their own
agendas, egos, and incentives that don't always align. Libertarian
organizations, think tanks, and political candidates often end up competing
with each other for money, media attention, and influence, leading to
infighting and factionalism.

4. No central authority to resolve disputes. Libertarianism lacks a clear
philosophical foundation or governing body to definitively settle internal
disagreements. Without a universally accepted framework for applying
abstract principles to messy real-world situations, differing
interpretations are inevitable.

So in summary, while libertarians share a common belief in freedom and
voluntary cooperation, the devil is in the details. Reasonable people can
disagree on how to translate broad principles into specific policies and
priorities. And in practice, personal agendas and power struggles often
lead libertarians to fight with each other despite their theoretical
commitment to getting along. This kind of factionalism is a common
challenge for ideologically driven movements.

That said, I think it's important to note that libertarianism is a very
broad tent encompassing many divergent strains of thought. The infighting
and disagreements, while real, don't negate the areas of commonality and
cooperation between different libertarian factions. And arguably, the
decentralized nature of the libertarian movement, while messy, is
consistent with its underlying philosophy of dispersed knowledge and
opposition to top-down control. Reasonable people can disagree on whether
the benefits of this decentralization outweigh the costs of disunity and
infighting.
-----------------------
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From snapbag at proton.me  Tue Apr  9 19:20:45 2024
From: snapbag at proton.me (Dave S)
Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2024 19:20:45 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Survival of the nicest: have we got evolution the wrong
 way round?
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQxo33nJ36fdi-njFs4_8BM9UOnw3Q-4qAgQPQzNf68tw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armisbdu=ivLoDvpQ=AtszoXJEFUpgNfsTOwNkfyWmMuzaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <AjNGrfRhbqgbyA03awiWdqyL41IkEvFidWkFSKGOzG6So8DJGWShxTkkDejP4V4_UkFXDWgoPgXT4ct-aA5Ppnp2QKT9fO3N1ViGDKsoRq0=@proton.me>
 <CALAdGNQxo33nJ36fdi-njFs4_8BM9UOnw3Q-4qAgQPQzNf68tw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <KE4TT5dY19_x4WZ81yCyI0qK4Ld-RnodV1_F0-yE3rotPik3YKZ_MTB2g0SZKHVUPbUAg0_2l5DADPmi6CRGWNsbllX_OJBsUE3xUKZX_UE=@proton.me>

On Tuesday, April 9th, 2024 at 1:24 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 5:30?AM Dave S via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Libertarians aren't opposed to voluntary cooperation.
>
> Except in practice when:
>
> 1) Other people need them to cooperate in order for the other people to survive, but they'd be just fine in the short term not cooperating, so how dare these other people resort to force, or

That doesn't sound like voluntary cooperation, it sounds like "do this or we'll force you to do it".

> 2) Other people refuse to voluntarily cooperate with them on things they need others' cooperation on in order to survive, which - being a threat to their survival - justifies their use of force upon others.

That violates the nonaggression principle, so not libertarian. Of course, if it comes down to survival, people will likely violate their principles.
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Tue Apr  9 19:24:00 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2024 12:24:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] funny book review
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7j-SPfnQSH3Hjfbtn=n6H_a2zwS11ipW_Vecp9VHUFGA@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.washingtonpost.com/books/2024/04/05/husbands-novel-holly-gramazio/

I have not read it yet, but if the book is as funny as the review, I
have to do so.

Keith

From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Apr  9 19:31:03 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2024 12:31:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Survival of the nicest: have we got evolution the wrong
 way round?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgvp77AEAj-viv6E_RaXfisOuAJoR-J41tU1jGsUMao5Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armisbdu=ivLoDvpQ=AtszoXJEFUpgNfsTOwNkfyWmMuzaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <AjNGrfRhbqgbyA03awiWdqyL41IkEvFidWkFSKGOzG6So8DJGWShxTkkDejP4V4_UkFXDWgoPgXT4ct-aA5Ppnp2QKT9fO3N1ViGDKsoRq0=@proton.me>
 <CALAdGNQxo33nJ36fdi-njFs4_8BM9UOnw3Q-4qAgQPQzNf68tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgvp77AEAj-viv6E_RaXfisOuAJoR-J41tU1jGsUMao5Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004801da8ab4$76dcd020$64967060$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat



_______________________________________________

 

 

 My impression of US libertarians is that they love to argue policy with each other and have many disagreements.

Get any two Libertarians together, and immediately you get 'Well, what type of Libertarian are you?'?.

Libertarians are just too individualistic!  :)

BillK

 

 

 

Ja.  Greens are that way too.

 

BillK, we yanks are choosing a leader between the two most hated men in America.  Yet we are told (with some credibility) that there are no other choices.  One or the other.  The year when Literally Anyone Else would appear to have great chances, the two biggest minor parties, Libertarian and Green, are more divided than ever.  Oy vey.  How did we get here?

 

spike

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From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Apr  9 19:34:35 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2024 12:34:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Survival of the nicest: have we got evolution the wrong
 way round?
In-Reply-To: <KE4TT5dY19_x4WZ81yCyI0qK4Ld-RnodV1_F0-yE3rotPik3YKZ_MTB2g0SZKHVUPbUAg0_2l5DADPmi6CRGWNsbllX_OJBsUE3xUKZX_UE=@proton.me>
References: <CAL_armisbdu=ivLoDvpQ=AtszoXJEFUpgNfsTOwNkfyWmMuzaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <AjNGrfRhbqgbyA03awiWdqyL41IkEvFidWkFSKGOzG6So8DJGWShxTkkDejP4V4_UkFXDWgoPgXT4ct-aA5Ppnp2QKT9fO3N1ViGDKsoRq0=@proton.me>
 <CALAdGNQxo33nJ36fdi-njFs4_8BM9UOnw3Q-4qAgQPQzNf68tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <KE4TT5dY19_x4WZ81yCyI0qK4Ld-RnodV1_F0-yE3rotPik3YKZ_MTB2g0SZKHVUPbUAg0_2l5DADPmi6CRGWNsbllX_OJBsUE3xUKZX_UE=@proton.me>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRGqTo-+NjLVJGo_W0X=X3A7PR+r14=uXvHGkOLeqWTxA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 12:22?PM Dave S via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Tuesday, April 9th, 2024 at 1:24 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 5:30?AM Dave S via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Libertarians aren't opposed to voluntary cooperation.
>>
>
> Except in practice when:
>
> 1) Other people need them to cooperate in order for the other people to
> survive, but they'd be just fine in the short term not cooperating, so how
> dare these other people resort to force, or
>
>
> That doesn't sound like voluntary cooperation, it sounds like "do this or
> we'll force you to do it".
>

I noted it as an exce;tion, yes.

> 2) Other people refuse to voluntarily cooperate with them on things they
> need others' cooperation on in order to survive, which - being a threat to
> their survival - justifies their use of force upon others.
>
>
> That violates the nonaggression principle, so not libertarian.
>

As noted, this is another exception.


> Of course, if it comes down to survival, people will likely violate their
> principles.
>

If there are cases where people will predictably violate their principles,
and it is reasonably expected for people proposing principles to predict
and cover these situations, the principles aren't really that solid if they
don't cover these situations.
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From efc at swisscows.email  Tue Apr  9 20:45:43 2024
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2024 22:45:43 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Survival of the nicest: have we got evolution the wrong
 way round?
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQxo33nJ36fdi-njFs4_8BM9UOnw3Q-4qAgQPQzNf68tw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armisbdu=ivLoDvpQ=AtszoXJEFUpgNfsTOwNkfyWmMuzaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <AjNGrfRhbqgbyA03awiWdqyL41IkEvFidWkFSKGOzG6So8DJGWShxTkkDejP4V4_UkFXDWgoPgXT4ct-aA5Ppnp2QKT9fO3N1ViGDKsoRq0=@proton.me>
 <CALAdGNQxo33nJ36fdi-njFs4_8BM9UOnw3Q-4qAgQPQzNf68tw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9f284b73-34d9-4b13-d978-f9d1ec466664@swisscows.email>



On Tue, 9 Apr 2024, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 5:30?AM Dave S via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>       On 4/9/24 8:09 AM, BillK via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>       >? Does this research indicate that even hard-core libertarians would be
>       >? better off co-operating with others?
>
>       Libertarians aren't opposed to voluntary cooperation.
> 
> 
> Except in practice when:
> 
> 1) Other people need them to cooperate in order for the other people to survive, but they'd be just fine in the short term not
> cooperating, so how dare these other people resort to force, or
> 
> 2) Other people refuse to voluntarily cooperate with them on things they need others' cooperation on in order to survive, which -
> being a threat to their survival - justifies their use of force upon others.

But then it would, per definition, not be voluntary cooperation which is 
what Dave was talking about.

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Apr 10 01:47:07 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2024 18:47:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Survival of the nicest: have we got evolution the wrong
 way round?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armisbdu=ivLoDvpQ=AtszoXJEFUpgNfsTOwNkfyWmMuzaQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armisbdu=ivLoDvpQ=AtszoXJEFUpgNfsTOwNkfyWmMuzaQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB51TwB1LTPLTj-5YFQ8JYr_Nic_RR1titgiHiSsvOcoSg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 5:11?AM BillK via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> BOOK REVIEW      08 April 2024

snip

> Cooperation happens because mutual benefits are better, biologically
> speaking, than working alone, as the case of lichens effectively
> demonstrates.

One of the more amusing cross-species examples of cooperation is
badgers and coyotes.

With humans, raising children is a minimal cooperation of two people
and usually more.

> Does this research indicate that even hard-core libertarians would be
> better off co-operating with others?

Of course, but an awful lot of the ones who identify as libertarians
especially those who identify as Libertarians are hard to cooperate
with.

There was nothing intentional to cause it, but most (75% IIRC) of the
L5 Society members identified as libertarian.  Heinlein influence
perhaps or maybe space colonies just appealed to people with a
libertarian bent.

Why Extropians turned out to be mostly libertarians is another
mystery.  The Extropians Wikipedia page does not mention libertarians
except in the infobox.

Keith

> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From giulio at gmail.com  Fri Apr 12 05:47:07 2024
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2024 07:47:07 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Prometheism, by Jason Jorjani (updated review)
Message-ID: <CAKTCJydgNujFx4cMegSSDXhri6pra69iOwYvRAKkhuxtoHMCQA@mail.gmail.com>

Prometheism, by Jason Jorjani (updated review). This is visionary
transhumanism at its best, on steroids.
https://www.turingchurch.com/p/prometheism-by-jason-jorjani-updated

From efc at swisscows.email  Fri Apr 12 08:41:21 2024
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2024 10:41:21 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] An article from an AI-skeptic.
Message-ID: <af82eca2-7eb4-6170-0f85-c2143865f5b4@swisscows.email>

Hello guys,

Saw this on usenet today and thought that you might enjoy it as a counter 
balance to everything we read about godlike AI being upon us. Always good 
to have a look at both sides of the discussion in my opinion.

Best regards,
Daniel


>From bencollver at tilde.pink Fri Apr 12 09:44:19 2024
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2024 00:02:12 -0000 (UTC)
From: Ben Collver <bencollver at tilde.pink>
Newsgroups: comp.misc
Subject: The LLMentalist Effect (AI & psychic's con)

The LLMentalist Effect
======================
by Baldur Bjarnason, July 4th, 2023

how chat-based Large Language Models replicate the mechanisms of a
psychic's con


For the past year or so I've been spending most of my time researching
the use of language and diffusion models in software businesses.

One of the issues in during this research--one that has perplexed
me--has been that many people are convinced that language models, or
specifically chat-based language models, are intelligent.

But there isn't any mechanism inherent in large language models (LLMs)
that would seem to enable this and, if real, it would be completely
unexplained.

LLMs are not brains and do not meaningfully share any of the mechanisms
that animals or people use to reason or think.

LLMs are a mathematical model of language tokens. You give a LLM text,
and it will give you a mathematically plausible response to that text.

There is no reason to believe that it thinks or reasons--indeed, every
AI researcher and vendor to date has repeatedly emphasised that these
models don't think.

There are two possible explanations for this effect:

1. The tech industry has accidentally invented the initial stages a
    completely new kind of mind, based on completely unknown
    principles, using completely unknown processes that have no
    parallel in the biological world.

2. The intelligence illusion is in the mind of the user and not in
    the LLM itself.

Many AI critics, including myself, are firmly in the second camp. It's
why I titled my book on the risks of generative "AI" The Intelligence
Illusion.

<https://illusion.baldurbjarnason.com/>

For the past couple of months, I've been working on an idea that I think
explains the mechanism of this intelligence illusion.

I now believe that there is even less intelligence and reasoning in
these LLMs than I thought before.

Many of the proposed use cases now look like borderline fraudulent
pseudoscience to me.

The rise of the mechanical psychic
==================================
The intelligence illusion seems to be based on the same mechanism as
that of a psychic's con, often called cold reading. It looks like an
accidental automation of the same basic tactic.

By using validation statements, such as sentences that use the Forer
effect, the chatbot and the psychic both give the impression of being
able to make extremely specific answers, but those answers are in fact
statistically generic.

<https://www.skepdic.com/forer.html>

The psychic uses these statements to give the impression of being able
to read minds and hear the secrets of the dead.

The chatbot gives the impression of an intelligence that is specifically
engaging with you and your work, but that impression is nothing more
than a statistical trick.

This idea was first planted in my head when I was going over some of the
statements people have been making about the reasoning of these "AI."

I first thought that these were just classic cases of tech bubble
enthusiasm, but no, "AI" has both taken a different crowd and the
believers in the "AI" bubble sound very different from those of prior
bubbles.

* "This is real. It's a bit worrying, but it's real."

* "There really is something there. Not sure what to think of it, but
   I've experienced it myself."

* You need to keep your mind open to the possibilities. Once you do,
   you'll see that there's something to it."

That's when I remembered, triggered by a blog post by Terence Eden on
the prevalence of Forer statements in chatbot replies. I have heard this
before.

<https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2023/02/
how-much-of-ais-recent-success-is-due-to-the-forer-effect/>

This specific blend of awe, disbelief, and dread all sound like the
words of a victim of a mentalist scam artist--psychics.

The psychic's con is a tried and true method for scamming people that
has been honed through the ages.

What I describe below is one variation. There are many variations, but
the core mechanism remains the same.

The Psychic's Con
=================
The audience is represented by a collection of characters.  The
disinterested are periods.  The interested are upper case O's.

       _   _         _
     . O . O . . . . O .
       -   -   _ _   - _
     . . . . . O O . . O
               - -     -

1. The Audience Selects Itself

Most people aren't interested in psychics or the like, so the initial
audience pool is already generally more open-minded and less critical
than the population in general. The chart now has different letters
to indicate that they are not of a single demographic


     R B B G G B

     Y Y B G R Y


2. The Scene is Set

The initial audience is prepared. Lights are dimmed. The psychic is
hyped up. Staff research the audience on social media or through
conversation. The audience's demographics are noted. All the letters
representing demographics not chosen are lower case.

           _ _
     r b b G G b
           = -
     y y b G r y
           -

3. Narrowing Down the Demographic

The psychic gauges the information they have on the audience,
gestures towards a row or cluster, and makes a statement that sounds
specific but is in fact statistically likely for the demographic.
Usually at least one person reacts. If not, the psychic will imply
that the secret is too embarrassing for the "real" person to come
forward, reminds people that they're available for private readings,
and tries again. An at-symbol representing the psychic has an arrow
pointing to the letter that represents the mark.

          - -
     @ -> G G
          = -
          G
          -

4. The Mark is Tested

The reaction indicates that the mark believes they were "read". This
leads to a burst of questions that, again, sound very specific but
are actually statistically generic. If the mark doesn't respond, the
psychic declares the initial read a success and tries again. The
mark's letter and the psychic's symbol have arrows pointing to each
other representing a loop.

      ->
     @  G
      <-

5. The Subjective Validation Loop

The con begins in earnest. The psychic asks a series of questions
that all sound very specific to the mark but are in reality just
statistically probable guesses, based on their demographics and prior
answers, phrased in a specific, highly confident way. The mark's
letter has exclamation marks.

      !!!
     G

6. "Wow! That psychic is the real thing!"

The psychic ends the conversation and the mark is left with the sense
that the psychic has uncanny powers. But the psychic isn't the real
thing. It's all a con.

1. Audience selection
=====================
Seers, tarot card readers, psychics, mind readers aren't all con
artists. Sometimes the "psychic" is open about it all just being
entertainment and aren't pretending to be able to contact spirits or
read minds. Some psychics do not have a profit motive at all, and
without the grift it doesn't seem fair to call somebody a con artist.

But many of them are con artists deliberately fooling people, and they
all operate using the same basic mechanisms that begin well before the
reading proper.

The audience is usually only composed of those already pre-disposed to
believe in psychic phenomena and those they have managed to drag with
them. Hardcore sceptics will almost always be in a very small minority
of the audience, which both makes them easy to manage and provides
social pressure on them to tone down their scepticism.

Those who attend are primed to believe and are already familiar with
the mythology surrounding psychics. All of which helps them manage
expectations and frame their performance.

2. Setting the scene
====================
Usually the audience is reminded of the ground rules for how psychic
readings "work" at the start of the performance. They are helped by the
popularisation of these rules by media, cinema, and TV.

Everybody now "knows" that:

* Readings usually begin murky and unclear.
* They then become clearer  as the "connection" to the "spirit world"
   gets stronger.
* Errors are expected. The "spirits" are often vague or hard to hear.
* Non-believers can weaken or even disrupt the connection.

Psychics also habitually research their audience, by mapping out their
demographics, looking them up on social media, or even with informal
interviews performed by staff mingling with attendees before the
performance begins.

When the lights dim, the psychic should have a clear idea of which
members of the audience will make for a good mark.

3. Narrowing down
=================
The mark usually chooses themselves. The psychic makes a statement and
points towards a row, quickly altering their gesture based on somebody
responding visible to the statement. This makes it look like they
pointed at the mark right from the beginning.

The mark is that way primed from the start to believe the psychic.
They're off-guard. Usually a bit surprised and totally unprepared for
the quick burst of questions the psychic offers next. If those questions
land and draw the mark in, they are followed by the actual reading.
Otherwise, they move on and try again.

4. Testing the mark--Cold reading using subjective validation
=============================================================
The con--cold reading--hinges on a quirk of human psychology: if we
personally relate to a statement, we will generally consider it to be
accurate.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading>

This unfortunate side effect of how our mind functions is called
subjective validation.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjective_validation>

> Subjective validation, sometimes called personal validation effect,
> is a cognitive bias by which people will consider a statement or
> another piece of information to be correct if it has any personal
> meaning or significance to them. People whose opinion is affected
> by subjective validation will perceive two unrelated events (i.e.,
> a coincidence) to be related because their personal beliefs demand
> that they be related.

As a consequence, many people will interpret even the most generic
statement as being specifically about them if they can relate to what
was said.

The more eager they are to find meaning in the statement, the stronger
the effect.

The more they believe in the speaker's ability to make accurate
statements, the stronger the effect.

The basic mechanism of the psychic's con is built on the mark being
willing and able to relate what was said to themselves, even if it's
unintentional.

5. The subjective validation loop using validation statements
=============================================================
The psychic taps into this cognitive bias by making a series of
statements that are tailored to be personally relatable--sound specific
to you--while actually being statistically generic.

These statements come in many types. I use "validation statements" here
as an umbrella term for all these various tactics.

Some common examples:

* Forer or Barnum statements are probably the most famous kind of
   statement that plays into the subjective validation effect. Many of
   these statements are inherently meaningless but are nonetheless
   felt to be accurate by listeners. Most people will consider "you
   tend to be hard on yourself" to be an accurate description of
   themselves, for example.
   <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnum_effect>

* Vanishing negative is where a question is rephrased to include a
   negative such as "not" or "don't". If the psychic asks "you don't
   play the piano?" then they will be able to reframe the question as
   accurate after the fact, no matter what the answer is. If you
   answer negative: "didn't think so". Positive: "that's what I
   thought."

* Rainbow ruse where the psychic associates the mark with both a
   trait and its opposite. "You're a very calm person, but if provoked
   you can get very angry."
   <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading#The_rainbow_ruse>

* Statistical guesses.
   Statements like "you have, or used to have, a scar on your left
   leg or knee" apply to almost everybody. With enough knowledge of
   common statistics, the psychic can make general statements that
   sound incredibly specific to the mark.

* Demographic guesses.
   Similar to statistical guesses, these are statements that are
   common to a demographic but will sound very specific to the mark
   that's listening.

* Unverifiable predictions.
   Predictions like "somebody bears a strong ill will towards you but
   they are unlikely to act on it" are impossible to verify, but will
   sound true to many people.

* Shotgunning is one of the more common tactic where the psychic will
   fire off a series of statements. The mark will find one of the
   statements to be accurate and, due to how our minds work, will come
   away only remembering the correct statement.
   <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading#Shotgunning>

An important part of this process is the tone and bearing of the
psychic. They need to be confident, be quick in dismissing errors and
moving on when they make mistakes, and they need to be quick to read
people's expressions and body language and adjust their responses to
match.

6. The con is completed
=======================
At the end of the process, the mark is likely to remember that the
reading was eerily correct--that the psychic had an almost supernatural
accuracy--which primes them to become even more receptive the next time
they attend.

This is where the con often becomes insidious: the effect becomes
stronger the more cooperative the mark is, and they often become more
cooperative over time.

What's more, susceptibility has nothing to do with intelligence.

Somebody raised to believe they have high IQ is more likely to fall
for this than somebody raised to think less of their own intellectual
capabilities. Subjective validation is a quirk of the human mind.
We all fall for it. But if you think you're unlikely to be fooled,
you will be tempted instead to apply your intelligence to "figure
out" how it happened. This means you can end up using considerable
creativity and intelligence to help the psychic fool you by coming up
with rationalisations for their "ability". And because you think you
can't be fooled, you also bring your intelligence to bear to defend the
psychic's claim of their powers. Smart people (or, those who think of
themselves as smart) can become the biggest, most lucrative marks.

Whereas the sceptic who thinks less of themselves is more likely to just
go:

"That's a neat trick. I don't know how you pulled it off. Must be very
clever."

And just move on.

Many psychics fool themselves
=============================
It isn't unusual for psychics to unconsciously develop a practice of
cold reading subconsciously. The psychics themselves might not even be
aware of their own tactics.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading#Subconscious_cold_reading>

As Denis Dutton describes:

> As a postgraduate student in pursuit of a scientific career, he
> became intrigued with astrology. Though during this period he had
> nagging doubts about the physical basis of astrology, he was
> encouraged to continue with it by his many satisfied clients, who
> invariably found his readings "amazingly accurate" in describing
> their personal situations and problems. Not until he had one day
> obtained such a gratifying reaction to a horoscope which, he
> realized later, he had cast completely incorrectly, did he begin
> slowly to understand the real nature of his activity: his great
> success as an astrologer had nothing whatsoever to do with the
> validity of astrology as a science. He had become, in fact, a
> proficient cold reader, one who sincerely believed in the power of
> astrology under the constant reinforcement of his clients. He was
> fooling them, of course, but only after falling for the illusion
> himself.

<http://www.denisdutton.com/cold_reading.htm>

There are many examples of this easily found once you start doing the
research. The mechanism is simple enough and already baked into people's
preconceptions of how readings work so many psychics accidentally
develop the knack for it, meaning that they're not just conning the
person being read, they are also conning themselves.

This point will become important later.

The LLMentalist Effect
======================

       _   _         _
     . O . O . . . . O .
       -   -   _ _   - _
     . . . . . O O . . O
               - -     -

1. The Audience Selects Itself

People sceptical about "AI" chatbots are less likely to use them.
Those who actively don't disbelieve the possibility of chatbot
"intelligence" won't get pulled in by the bot. The most active
audience will be early adopters, tech enthusiasts, and genuine
believers in AGI who will all generally be less critical and more
open-minded. The characters now have different letters to indicate
that they are not of a single demographic, all overlaid by the word
'HYPE' and arrows indicating a prevailing atmosphere of hype.

      ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
     R|B|B|G|G|B|
      | | | | | |
     Y|  HYPE  Y|


2. The Scene is Set

Users are primed by the hype surrounding the technology. The chat
environment sets the mood and expectations.  Warnings about it being
"early days" and "hallucinations" both anthropomorphise the bot and
provide ready-made excuses for when one of its constant failures are
noticed. All the letters representing demographics not chosen are
lower case.

       _     _ _
     r B b g G B
       - _ _ - -
     y y B G r y
         - -

3. The Prompt Establishes the Context

Each user gives the chatbot a prompt and it answers. Many will either
accept the answer as given or repeat variations on the initial prompt
to get the desired result.  They move on without falling for the
effect. But some users engage in conversation and get drawn in.
Various letters representing marks are connected via loop arrows with
at symbols representing the chatbot. The rest are lower case.


     B|  b   G|  g   B|
    ^ v     ^ v     ^ v
    |@   @  |@   @  |@


4. The Marks Test Themselves

The chatbot's answers sound extremely specific to the current context
but are in fact statistically generic. The mathematical model behind
the chatbot delivers a statistically plausible response to the
question. The marks that find this convincing get pulled in. The
mark's letter and the chatbot's symbol have arrows pointing to each
other representing a loop.

      ->
     @  G
      <-

5. The Subjective Validation Loop

The mark asks a series of questions and all of the replies sound like
reasoned answers specific to the context but are in reality just
statistically probable guesses. The more the mark engages, the more
convinced they are of the chatbot's intelligence. The mark's letter
has exclamation marks.

      !!!
     G

6. "Wow! This chatbot thinks! It has sparks of general intelligence!"

The mark is left with the sense that the chatbot is uncannily close to
being self-aware and that it is definitely capable of reasoning But
it's nothing more than a statistical and psychological effect.

1. The audience selects itself
==============================
If you aren't interested in "AI", you aren't going to use an "AI"
chatbot, and if you try one, you're less likely to return.

This means that many of the avid users of these chatbots are
self-selected to be enthusiastic and open-minded about the field of AI
and the notion of Artificial General Intelligence (AGI)--that these
technologies might lead to self-aware and self-improving reasoning
systems.

Those who are genuine enthusiasts about AGI--that this field is about
to invent a new kind of mind--are likely to be substantially more
enthusiastic about using these chatbots than the rest.

This parallels the audience selection for the psychic's con. Those who
believe in an afterlife and that it can be contacted by the living are
substantially more likely to attend a psychic's reading than others.

2. Setting the stage
====================
Our current environment of relentless hype sets the stage and builds
up an expectation for at least glimmers of genuine intelligence. For
all the warnings vendors make about these systems not being general
intelligences, those statements are always followed by either an implied
or an actual "yet". The hype strongly implies that these are "almost"
intelligences and that you should be able to perceive "sparks" of
intelligence in them.

Those who believe are primed for subjective validation.

The warnings also play a role in setting the stage. "It's early days"
means that when the statistically generic nature of the response is
spotted, it's easily dismissed as an "error". Anthropomorphising
concepts such as using "hallucination" as a term help dismiss the fact
that statistical responses are completely disconnected from meaning
and facts. The hype and mythology of AI primes the audience to think
of these systems as persons to be understood and engaged with, all
but guaranteeing subjective validation.

3. The prompt establishes the context
=====================================
The initial prompt interaction is the first filter. Most will just take
the first answer and leave, or at most will repeat variations of their
prompt until they get the result they wanted. These interactions are
purely mechanical. The end-user is treating the chatbot merely as a
generative widget, so they never get pulled into the LLMentalist effect.

Some of the end-users, usually those who are more enthusiastic
about the prospect of "AI", begin to engage and get pulled into
"conversation" with a mathematical language model.

4. The mark tests themselves--subjective validation kicks in
============================================================
That conversation is the primary filter. Those who want to believe will
see the responses to their prompt as being both specifically about them
and intelligent. They are primed to see the chatbot as a person that
is reading their texts and thoughtfully responding to them. But that
isn't how language models work. LLMs model the distribution of words and
phrases in a language as tokens. Their responses are nothing more than a
statistically likely continuation of the prompt.

You give it text. It gives you a response that matches responses that
texts like yours commonly get in its training data set.

Already, this is working along the same fundamental principle as
the psychic's con: the LLM isn't "reading" your text any more than
the psychic is reading your mind. They are giving you statistically
plausible responses based on what you say. You're the one finding ways
to validate those responses as being specific to you as the subject of
the conversation.

Because of how large the training data set is, the responses from
the chatbot will look extremely convincing and specific, even though
they are statistically generic. Once you've trained on most of the
past twenty years of the web, large collections of stolen ebooks, all
of Reddit, most of social media, and a substantial amount of custom
interactions by low-wage workers, the model will have a response for
almost everything you can think of, or can use a variation of something
it's already seen.

These initial interactions can be quite compelling, especially if you're
a believer in "AI", but it is in the longer and repeated conversations
that the effect really begins to kick in.

5. The subjective validation loop--RLHF enters the picture
==========================================================
It's important to remember at this stage how Reinforcement Learning
through Human Feedback works.

<https://huggingface.co/blog/rlhf>

This is the method that vendors use to turn a raw language model into a
chatbot that can hold a conversation.

RLHF doesn't let the vendor make specific corrections to an LLM's
output. The method involves using human feedback to rank a variety of
texts generated by the model, usually following some other form of
fine-tuning. The ranked texts are in turn used to train a separate
reward model. It's this model that is responsible for the actual
Reinforcement Learning of the LLM. The reward model, coupled with
fine-tuning the LLM on collections of chats, is what turns the
borderline unhinged conversations of a regular model into the fluent
experience you see in systems such as ChatGPT.

Because the feedback is based on rankings, it can't easily be based on
specific issues. If a model makes a false statement in a conversation,
that conversation gets a lower rank.

This lack of concrete specificity likely means that RLHF models in
general are likely to reward responses that sound accurate. As the
reward model is likely just another language model, it can't reward
based on facts or anything specific, so it can only reward output
that has a tone, style, and structure that's commonly associated with
statements that have been rated as accurate.

Even the ratings themselves are suspect. Most, if not all, of the
workers who provide this feedback to AI vendors are low-paid workers
who are unlikely to have specialised knowledge relevant to the topic
they're rating, and even if they do, they are unlikely to have the time
to fact-check everything.

That means they are going to be ranking the conversations almost
entirely based on tone and sentence structure.

This is why I think that RLHF has effectively become a reward system
that specifically optimises language models for generating validation
statements: Forer statements, shotgunning, vanishing negatives, and
statistical guesses.

In trying to make the LLM sound more human, more confident, and more
engaging, but without being able to edit specific details in its output,
AI researchers seem to have created a mechanical mentalist.

Instead of pretending to read minds thrgh statistically plausible
validation statements, it pretends to read and understand your text
through statistically plausible validation statements.

The validation loop can continue for a while, with the mark constantly
doing the work of convincing themselves of the language model's
intelligence. Done long enough, it becomes a form of reinforcement
learning for the mark.

6. The marks become cheerleaders
================================
The most enthusiastic believers in an imminent AI revolution are
starting to sound very similar to long-time believers in psychics and
mind-reading.

They come up with increasingly convoluted ideas and models to explain
why the impossible is possible. They become more and more dismissive of
fields of science and research that challenge their world view. Their
own statements become tinged with awe and dread.

And they keep evangelising. This is real!

Often followed by: This is dangerous!

Remember, the effect becomes more powerful when the mark is both
intelligent and wants to believe. Subjective validation is based on how
our minds work, in general, and is unaffected by your reported IQ.

If anything, your intelligence will just improve your ability to
rationalise your subjective validation and make the effect stronger.
When it's coupled with a genuine desire to believe in the con--that we
are on the verge of discovering Artificial General Intelligence--the
effect should both be irresistible and powerful once it takes hold.

This is why you can't rely on user reports to discover these issues.
People who believe in psychics will generally have only positive things
to say about a psychic, even as they're being bilked. People who believe
we're on the verge of building an AGI will only have positive things to
say about chatbots that support that belief.

It's easy to fall for this
==========================
Falling for this statistical illusion is easy. It has nothing to do with
your intelligence or even your gullibility. It's your brain working
against you. Most of the time conversations are collaborative and
personal, so your mind is optimised for finding meaning in what is said
under those circumstances. If you also want to believe, whether it's in
psychics or in AGI, your mind will helpfully find reasons to believe in
the conversation you're having.

Once you're so deep into it that you've done a press tour and committed
yourself as a public figure to this idea, dislodging the belief that we
now have a proto-AGI becomes impossible. Much like a scientist publicly
stating that they believe in a particular psychic, their self-image
becomes intertwined with their belief in that psychic. Any dismissal of
the phenomenon will feel to them like a personal attack.

The psychic's con is a mechanism that has been extraordinarily
successful at fooling people over the years. It works.

The best defence is to respond the same way as you would to a convincing
psychic's reading: "That's a neat trick, I wonder how they pulled it
off?"

Well, now you know.

Once you're aware of the fallibility of how your mind works, you should
have an easier time spotting when that fallibility is being exploited,
intentionally or not.

That brings us to an important question.

Is this intentional?
====================
Given that there are billions of dollars at stake in the tech industry,
it would be tempting to assume that the statistical illusion of
intelligence was intentionally created by people in the tech industry.

I personally think that's extraordinarily unlikely.

A popular response to various government conspiracy theories is that
government institutions just aren't that good at keeping secrets.

Well, the tech industry just isn't that good at software. This illusion
is, honestly, too clever to have been created intentionally by those
making it.

The field of AI research has a reputation for disregarding the value of
other fields, so I'm certain that this reimplementation of a psychic's
con is entirely accidental. It's likely that, being unaware of much of
the research in psychology on cognitive biases or how a psychic's con
works, they stumbled into a mechanism and made chatbots that fooled many
of the chatbot makers themselves.

Remember what I wrote above about psychics frequently having conned
themselves, that many of them aren't even aware of their own scam?

The same applies here. I think this is an industry that didn't
understand what it was doing and, now, doesn't understand what it did.

That's why so many people in tech are completely and utterly convinced
Ththat they have created the first spark of true Artificial General
Intelligence.

This new era of tech seems to be built on superstition and pseudoscience
========================================================================
Once I started to research the possibility that LLM interactions were a
variation on the psychic's con, I began to see parallels everywhere in
the field of "AI".

* Hooking a language model up to an MRI and claiming that it can read
   minds.

* Claiming to be able to discern criminality based on facial
   expressions and gait.

* Proposing magical solutions to health problems.

* Literal predictions of the future.

* Claiming to be able to discern the honesty of potential employees.

All of these are proposed applications of "AI" systems, but they are
also all common psychic scams. Mind reading, police assistance, faith
healing, prophecy, and even psychic employee vetting are all right out
of the mentalist playbook.

Even though I have no doubts that these efforts are sincere, it's
becoming more and more obvious that the tech industry has given itself
wholesale to superstition and pseudoscience. They keep ignoring the
warnings coming from other fields and the concerns from critics in their
own camp.

Large Language Models don't have the functionality or features to make
up for this wave of superstition.

* "Hallucinations" are a pervasive flaw that's baked into how LLMs
   work.
   <https://needtoknow.fyi/card/hallucinations/>

* Summarisations are error-prone and prone to generalising about the
   text being summarised.
   <https://www.baldurbjarnason.com/2023/ai-summaries-unreliable/>

* Their "reasoning" is a statistical illusion.

* Their performance at natural language processing tasks is only
   marginally better than that of smaller language models.
   <http://opensamizdat.com/posts/chatgpt_survey/>

* They tend to memorise and copy text without attribution.
   <https://needtoknow.fyi/card/copyright/>

Taken together, these flaws make LLMs look less like an information
technology and more like a modern mechanisation of the psychic hotline.

Delegating your decision-making, ranking, assessment, strategising,
analysis, or any other form of reasoning to a chatbot becomes the
functional equivalent to phoning a psychic for advice.

Imagine Google or a major tech company trying to fix their search engine
by adding a psychic hotline to their front page? That's what they're
doing with Bard.

* "Our university students can't make heads nor tails of our website.
   Let's add a psychic hotline!"

* "We need to improve our customer service portal. Let's add a
   psychic hotline!"

* "We've added a psychic hotline button to your web browser! No, you
   can't get rid of it. You're welcome!"

* "Can't understand a thing in our technical docs? Refer to our fancy
   new psychic hotline!"

The AI bubble is going to be a tough one to weather.

More on "AI"
============
I've spent some time writing about the many flaws of language models and
generative "AI".

* I've written about how language models are a backward-facing tool
   in a novelty-seeking industry and why I think using language models
   for programming is a bad idea.
   <https://softwarecrisis.dev/letters/ai-code-quality/>
   <https://softwarecrisis.dev/letters/ai-and-software-quality/>

* "AI" summaries are inherently unreliable.
   <https://www.baldurbjarnason.com/2023/ai-summaries-unreliable/>

* Their tendency towards shortcuts makes them dangerous in healthcare.
   <https://www.baldurbjarnason.com/2023/ai-in-healthcare/>

* Most of the research indicating a productivity benefit to "AI" is,
   at best, flawed, and at worst are completely detached from the
   reality of modern office work.
   <https://www.baldurbjarnason.com/2023/ignore-most-ai-research/>
   <https://www.baldurbjarnason.com/2023/ai-research-again/>

* AI vendors have a history of pseudoscience and snake oil.
   <https://www.baldurbjarnason.com/2023/beware-of-ai-snake-oil/>

* Even if you do think that a language model's unsolvable tendency
   towards ?hallucinations' doesn't disqualify the technology from
   replacing search engines, the many security issues that language
   models suffer from should. The "write a prompt; get the output"
   model is inherently insecure. These systems are also vulnerable to
   a form of keyword manipulation exploit that's impossible to prevent.
   <https://softwarecrisis.dev/letters/prompts-are-not-fit-for-purpose/>
   <https://softwarecrisis.dev/letters/google-bard-seo/>

I've come to the conclusion that a language model is almost always the
wrong tool for the job.

***
I strongly advise against integrating an LLM or chatbot into your
product, website, or organisational processes.
***

If you do have to use generative AI, either because it's a mandate from
above your pay grade or some other requirement, I have written a book
that's specifically about the issues with using generative "AI" for
work:

The Intelligence Illusion: a practical guide to the business risks of
Generative AI.
<https://illusion.baldurbjarnason.com/>

It's only $35 USD for EPUB and PDF, which is only 15% of the $240 USD
cost of twelve months of ChatGPT Plus.

But, again, I'd much rather you just avoid using a language model in
the first place and save both the cost of the ebook and the ChatGPT
subscription.

References on the Psychic's Con
===============================
* Cold reading (Wikipedia)
   <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading>
* How to Become Psychic and Cold Read People
   <http://positivelybrainwashed.com/
   how-to-become-psychic-and-cold-read-people/>
* Derren Brown Cold Reading revealed
   <https://secrets-explained.com/derren-brown/cold-reading>
* Cold reading (Rational Wiki)
   <https://secrets-explained.com/derren-brown/cold-reading>
* 7 Tricks Psychics Bullshit People With That Everyone Should Know
   <https://www.thrillist.com/culture/7-tricks-psychics-and-mediums-use-
   how-psychics-use-cold-reading-the-forer-effect>
* Should You Believe in Psychics? Psychology and logic join forces to
   debunk psychics (Psychology Today)
   <https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/hot-thought/201904/
   should-you-believe-in-psychics>
* Motivated reasoning (Wikipedia)
   <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motivated_reasoning>
* Cold Reading: How I Made Others Believe I Had Psychic Powers
   <https://medium.com/@chris.kirsch/cold-reading-how-i-
   made-others-believe-i-had-psychic-powers-dc184879d264>
* Cold reading (Sceptic's Dictionary)
   <https://www.skepdic.com/coldread.html>
* Subjective validation (Sceptic's Dictionary)
   <https://www.skepdic.com/subjectivevalidation.html>
* Subjective validation (Wikipedia)
   <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjective_validation>
* Coincidences: Remarkable or Random?
   <https://skepticalinquirer.org/1998/09/
   coincidences-remarkable-or-random/>
* Psychic Experiences: Psychic Illusions
   <https://www.susanblackmore.uk/articles/
   psychic-experiences-psychic-illusions/>
* Guide to Cold Reading
   <https://www.skeptics.com.au/resources/articles/
   guide-to-cold-reading-ray-hyman/>
* The Cold Reading Technique
   <http://www.denisdutton.com/cold_reading.htm>
* Forer effect (Sceptic's Dictionary)
   <https://www.skepdic.com/forer.html>
* Tricks of the Psychic Trade (Psychology Today)
   <https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/speaking-in-tongues/
   201201/tricks-the-psychic-trade>
* Psychic Scams
   <https://www.aarp.org/money/scams-fraud/info-2022/psychic.html>
* Ten Tricks of the Psychics I Bet You Didn't Know (You Won't Believe #6!)
   <https://skepticalinquirer.org/exclusive/
   ten-tricks-of-the-psychics-i-bet-you-didnrsquot-know/>

From: <https://softwarecrisis.dev/letters/llmentalist/>

From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Apr 12 09:16:03 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2024 10:16:03 +0100
Subject: [ExI] An article from an AI-skeptic.
In-Reply-To: <af82eca2-7eb4-6170-0f85-c2143865f5b4@swisscows.email>
References: <af82eca2-7eb4-6170-0f85-c2143865f5b4@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <CAL_armizEozxbwQ4Yow-NegGNgSb00vgbPjCa6QMv9rSbCYf+A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 at 09:44, efc--- via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Hello guys,
>
> Saw this on usenet today and thought that you might enjoy it as a counter
> balance to everything we read about godlike AI being upon us. Always good
> to have a look at both sides of the discussion in my opinion.
>
> Best regards,  Daniel
>_______________________________________________


Oh, there is definitely a lot of hype involved with AIs!  :)
Just look at the billions of funding being thrown at it.
But people and companies are finding good uses for AI, even at the
present state of development. Companies are replacing people jobs with
AIs. ? (Not always successfully, of course, but they will learn from
their mistakes).
See:
<https://www.wired.com/story/student-papers-generative-ai-turnitin/>
Quote:
Students Are Likely Writing Millions of Papers With AI
Amanda Hoover    Apr 9, 2024
Turnitin, a service that checks papers for plagiarism, says its
detection tool found millions of papers that may have a significant
amount of AI-generated content.
Students have submitted more than 22 million papers that may have used
generative AI in the past year, new data released by plagiarism
detection company Turnitin shows.
--------------------

BillK
-------------------


From dsunley at gmail.com  Fri Apr 12 20:14:04 2024
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2024 14:14:04 -0600
Subject: [ExI] An article from an AI-skeptic.
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armizEozxbwQ4Yow-NegGNgSb00vgbPjCa6QMv9rSbCYf+A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <af82eca2-7eb4-6170-0f85-c2143865f5b4@swisscows.email>
 <CAL_armizEozxbwQ4Yow-NegGNgSb00vgbPjCa6QMv9rSbCYf+A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEptUkQA_kmPqN4xkCSkeshiVsaMBLekEVNd+NOA2OX6KerBPg@mail.gmail.com>

An economist is walking along the sidewalk and sees a $20 bill. He just
keeps walking, thinking "That's an obvious fake, and only an idiot would
pick it up. Per the efficient market theorem, if that was really a $20 it
would have been picked up already. I'm way too smart for that!"

On Fri, Apr 12, 2024 at 3:18?AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 at 09:44, efc--- via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > Hello guys,
> >
> > Saw this on usenet today and thought that you might enjoy it as a counter
> > balance to everything we read about godlike AI being upon us. Always good
> > to have a look at both sides of the discussion in my opinion.
> >
> > Best regards,  Daniel
> >_______________________________________________
>
>
> Oh, there is definitely a lot of hype involved with AIs!  :)
> Just look at the billions of funding being thrown at it.
> But people and companies are finding good uses for AI, even at the
> present state of development. Companies are replacing people jobs with
> AIs. ? (Not always successfully, of course, but they will learn from
> their mistakes).
> See:
> <https://www.wired.com/story/student-papers-generative-ai-turnitin/>
> Quote:
> Students Are Likely Writing Millions of Papers With AI
> Amanda Hoover    Apr 9, 2024
> Turnitin, a service that checks papers for plagiarism, says its
> detection tool found millions of papers that may have a significant
> amount of AI-generated content.
> Students have submitted more than 22 million papers that may have used
> generative AI in the past year, new data released by plagiarism
> detection company Turnitin shows.
> --------------------
>
> BillK
> -------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From snapbag at proton.me  Sat Apr 13 18:58:00 2024
From: snapbag at proton.me (Dave S)
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2024 18:58:00 +0000
Subject: [ExI] An article from an AI-skeptic.
In-Reply-To: <af82eca2-7eb4-6170-0f85-c2143865f5b4@swisscows.email>
References: <af82eca2-7eb4-6170-0f85-c2143865f5b4@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <LD-xNwQobDf1xXfJn-7SkxQaaMSAM2NQfkzjs7D6o6uifa2NNCjKwC2BaerzMPSbKOrBmHGS-AAnT_CfsgTIMQVaBXPE5RXQlmc0eVKUCaE=@proton.me>

Wow, that's a whole lot of words to make a simple point. I don't see any similarity between a psychic cold reading con and an interaction with an LLM.

I ask a simple or complex question and get a coherent response that's more than one would expect from statistical language generation. I'd expect a series of grammatically correct sentences that aren't coherent as a whole. How LLMs are able to generate responses that aren't just random babble mystifies me.


From snapbag at proton.me  Sat Apr 13 19:05:15 2024
From: snapbag at proton.me (Dave S)
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2024 19:05:15 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Survival of the nicest: have we got evolution the wrong
 way round?
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRGqTo-+NjLVJGo_W0X=X3A7PR+r14=uXvHGkOLeqWTxA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armisbdu=ivLoDvpQ=AtszoXJEFUpgNfsTOwNkfyWmMuzaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <AjNGrfRhbqgbyA03awiWdqyL41IkEvFidWkFSKGOzG6So8DJGWShxTkkDejP4V4_UkFXDWgoPgXT4ct-aA5Ppnp2QKT9fO3N1ViGDKsoRq0=@proton.me>
 <CALAdGNQxo33nJ36fdi-njFs4_8BM9UOnw3Q-4qAgQPQzNf68tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <KE4TT5dY19_x4WZ81yCyI0qK4Ld-RnodV1_F0-yE3rotPik3YKZ_MTB2g0SZKHVUPbUAg0_2l5DADPmi6CRGWNsbllX_OJBsUE3xUKZX_UE=@proton.me>
 <CALAdGNRGqTo-+NjLVJGo_W0X=X3A7PR+r14=uXvHGkOLeqWTxA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2WmNHfiLI8QBF3q5WPoqN2oBe_4ZrJsASQ3tEDhyuaYthNxzgtNL_ZMqiCFWNPmfIUX4fDW6nbhLQa6bJVjDWL7NakeElxXr6QNdUGiBRcM=@proton.me>

On Tuesday, April 9th, 2024 at 3:34 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> If there are cases where people will predictably violate their principles, and it is reasonably expected for people proposing principles to predict and cover these situations, the principles aren't really that solid if they don't cover these situations.

People violate their own principles all the time under extreme circumstances. I think stealing is wrong, but I'd steal in a heartbeat to save myself or a loved one. I don't think the harm caused by petty theft is sufficient to justify adhering to the principle in that case.
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Apr 13 19:35:05 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2024 12:35:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Survival of the nicest: have we got evolution the wrong
 way round?
In-Reply-To: <2WmNHfiLI8QBF3q5WPoqN2oBe_4ZrJsASQ3tEDhyuaYthNxzgtNL_ZMqiCFWNPmfIUX4fDW6nbhLQa6bJVjDWL7NakeElxXr6QNdUGiBRcM=@proton.me>
References: <CAL_armisbdu=ivLoDvpQ=AtszoXJEFUpgNfsTOwNkfyWmMuzaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <AjNGrfRhbqgbyA03awiWdqyL41IkEvFidWkFSKGOzG6So8DJGWShxTkkDejP4V4_UkFXDWgoPgXT4ct-aA5Ppnp2QKT9fO3N1ViGDKsoRq0=@proton.me>
 <CALAdGNQxo33nJ36fdi-njFs4_8BM9UOnw3Q-4qAgQPQzNf68tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <KE4TT5dY19_x4WZ81yCyI0qK4Ld-RnodV1_F0-yE3rotPik3YKZ_MTB2g0SZKHVUPbUAg0_2l5DADPmi6CRGWNsbllX_OJBsUE3xUKZX_UE=@proton.me>
 <CALAdGNRGqTo-+NjLVJGo_W0X=X3A7PR+r14=uXvHGkOLeqWTxA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2WmNHfiLI8QBF3q5WPoqN2oBe_4ZrJsASQ3tEDhyuaYthNxzgtNL_ZMqiCFWNPmfIUX4fDW6nbhLQa6bJVjDWL7NakeElxXr6QNdUGiBRcM=@proton.me>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTB20GfSVNX38F84ci2wVPsASiGeHvhO=2P=an=HDVwFg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 13, 2024, 12:06?PM Dave S via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Tuesday, April 9th, 2024 at 3:34 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
> If there are cases where people will predictably violate their principles,
> and it is reasonably expected for people proposing principles to predict
> and cover these situations, the principles aren't really that solid if they
> don't cover these situations.
>
>
> People violate their own principles all the time under extreme
> circumstances. I think stealing is wrong, but I'd steal in a heartbeat to
> save myself or a loved one. I don't think the harm caused by petty theft is
> sufficient to justify adhering to the principle in that case.
>

Is your principle that stealing is wrong per se, or to minimize harm - with
the observation that stealing usually but not always inflicts more harm
than it relieves, and thus usually but not always should be avoided, with
that metric identifying the rare cases where it is acceptable?

The latter would be an example of a more solid principle, as it covers
exceptions likely to be encountered (by enough people to matter) in
practice.

>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Apr 13 21:57:47 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2024 22:57:47 +0100
Subject: [ExI] An article from an AI-skeptic.
In-Reply-To: <LD-xNwQobDf1xXfJn-7SkxQaaMSAM2NQfkzjs7D6o6uifa2NNCjKwC2BaerzMPSbKOrBmHGS-AAnT_CfsgTIMQVaBXPE5RXQlmc0eVKUCaE=@proton.me>
References: <af82eca2-7eb4-6170-0f85-c2143865f5b4@swisscows.email>
 <LD-xNwQobDf1xXfJn-7SkxQaaMSAM2NQfkzjs7D6o6uifa2NNCjKwC2BaerzMPSbKOrBmHGS-AAnT_CfsgTIMQVaBXPE5RXQlmc0eVKUCaE=@proton.me>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjhk+it6KbrAe4m+TEzw+0FnkR6ScEhaV_=+fz9DPonyA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 at 20:00, Dave S via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Wow, that's a whole lot of words to make a simple point. I don't see any
similarity between a psychic cold reading con and an interaction with an
LLM.
>
> I ask a simple or complex question and get a coherent response that's
more than one would expect from statistical language generation. I'd expect
a series of grammatically correct sentences that aren't coherent as a
whole. How LLMs are able to generate responses that aren't just random
babble mystifies me.
> _______________________________________________


It also mystifies me. It seems that generating correct sentences is only a
relatively small final part of the process.
I asked Claude to explain how he does the trick. I don't think I really
even understand the explanation!  :)

Claude:
Large Language Models (LLMs) are a type of artificial intelligence that use
deep learning techniques to process and generate human-like text. They are
trained on vast amounts of text data, allowing them to learn patterns,
grammar, and contextual relationships within the language. Here's a
detailed explanation of how LLMs work:

1. Architecture:
   - LLMs are based on neural network architectures, such as Transformer
models (e.g., GPT, BERT).
   - These models consist of multiple layers of interconnected nodes
(neurons) that process and transform input data.
   - The Transformer architecture introduces self-attention mechanisms,
allowing the model to weigh the importance of different words in a sequence.

2. Training Data:
   - LLMs are trained on massive amounts of text data, often sourced from
the internet, books, articles, and other written content.
   - The training data covers a wide range of topics, genres, and styles to
expose the model to diverse language patterns.
   - The data is preprocessed to remove noise, formatting, and irrelevant
information.

3. Tokenization:
   - The input text is tokenized, breaking it down into smaller units
called tokens (e.g., words, subwords, or characters).
   - Tokenization helps the model understand and process the text at a
granular level.

4. Embedding:
   - Each token is converted into a dense vector representation called an
embedding.
   - Embeddings capture the semantic and syntactic relationships between
tokens.
   - The model learns these embeddings during training, allowing it to
understand the meaning and context of words.

5. Training Process:
   - The LLM is trained using a self-supervised learning approach, where
the model learns to predict the next token given the previous tokens.
   - During training, the model adjusts its internal parameters (weights)
to minimize the difference between its predictions and the actual next
token in the training data.
   - This process is repeated iteratively over the entire training dataset,
allowing the model to learn patterns and relationships in the language.

6. Attention Mechanism:
   - The self-attention mechanism in Transformer-based LLMs allows the
model to attend to different parts of the input sequence.
   - It calculates attention scores between each token and every other
token in the sequence, determining their relevance and dependencies.
   - This enables the model to capture long-range dependencies and
understand the context of the input.

7. Generation:
   - Once trained, an LLM can generate text by predicting the next token
based on the given input or prompt.
   - The model uses its learned knowledge and patterns to generate coherent
and contextually relevant text.
   - Techniques like beam search or top-k sampling are used to select the
most probable next tokens and generate diverse outputs.

8. Fine-tuning and Adaptation:
   - LLMs can be fine-tuned on specific tasks or domains by further
training them on task-specific data.
   - Fine-tuning allows the model to adapt its knowledge to a particular
application or context.
   - This enables LLMs to perform various tasks, such as question
answering, text summarization, translation, and more.

LLMs have achieved remarkable performance in natural language processing
tasks due to their ability to capture and generate human-like text. They
have transformed various domains, including language translation, content
generation, sentiment analysis, and conversational AI.

However, LLMs also have limitations, such as potential biases present in
the training data, lack of explicit reasoning capabilities, and difficulty
in handling tasks that require external knowledge or common sense
reasoning. Ongoing research aims to address these challenges and further
improve the capabilities of LLMs.
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Apr 14 00:08:05 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2024 01:08:05 +0100
Subject: [ExI] An article from an AI-skeptic.
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjhk+it6KbrAe4m+TEzw+0FnkR6ScEhaV_=+fz9DPonyA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <af82eca2-7eb4-6170-0f85-c2143865f5b4@swisscows.email>
 <LD-xNwQobDf1xXfJn-7SkxQaaMSAM2NQfkzjs7D6o6uifa2NNCjKwC2BaerzMPSbKOrBmHGS-AAnT_CfsgTIMQVaBXPE5RXQlmc0eVKUCaE=@proton.me>
 <CAL_armjhk+it6KbrAe4m+TEzw+0FnkR6ScEhaV_=+fz9DPonyA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgJ10hCMu1ihF2ZA6vZOPVh98KSWeHRLfJuT2PSbZ994g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 at 22:57, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> It also mystifies me. It seems that generating correct sentences is only a
> relatively small final part of the process.
> I asked Claude to explain how he does the trick. I don't think I really
> even understand the explanation!  :)
>


So I asked Claude to explain the steps in his thinking process and give
some examples

Claude:
As an AI language model, I use a combination of natural language processing
(NLP) techniques and deep learning algorithms to understand and respond to
questions. The process can be broken down into several steps:

1. Input processing: When you ask a question, I first analyze the input
text, breaking it down into individual words, phrases, and sentences. This
helps me understand the structure and meaning of your query.

2. Tokenization and embedding: The input text is then converted into
numerical representations called tokens and embeddings. These
representations capture the semantic and syntactic relationships between
words and phrases, allowing me to process the input more effectively.

3. Context understanding: Using the embeddings and my pre-trained
knowledge, I try to understand the context of your question. This involves
identifying key entities, concepts, and the relationships between them, as
well as determining the intent behind your query.

4. Knowledge retrieval: Based on the context and intent of your question, I
access relevant information from my pre-trained knowledge base. This
knowledge base is built using vast amounts of text data from various
sources, such as books, articles, and websites.

5. Response generation: Using the retrieved knowledge and the context of
your question, I generate a response. This involves selecting the most
relevant information, structuring it coherently, and expressing it in
natural language.

6. Output processing: Finally, the generated response is processed to
ensure it is grammatically correct, contextually appropriate, and adheres
to any predefined rules or constraints (such as avoiding harmful content).

Throughout this process, I rely on the patterns and relationships learned
during my training phase, which involved processing enormous amounts of
text data. This allows me to understand and respond to a wide range of
questions, even if they are phrased in different ways or cover topics I
haven't encountered before.

It's important to note that while I can process and respond to natural
language effectively, my understanding is based on statistical patterns and
associations rather than true comprehension or reasoning like humans.
---------

Now give some examples -

Claude:

Certainly! Let's use the question "What is the capital of France?" as an
example to illustrate each step.

1. Input processing:
   - Input text: "What is the capital of France?"
   - Processed text: ["What", "is", "the", "capital", "of", "France", "?"]

2. Tokenization and embedding:
   - Tokens: ["What", "is", "the", "capital", "of", "France", "?"]
   - Embeddings: Each token is converted into a high-dimensional vector
representation. For example, "France" might be represented as [0.2, 0.4,
-0.1, ..., 0.8].

3. Context understanding:
   - Entities: "France" (recognized as a country)
   - Intent: The question is asking for the capital city of France.

4. Knowledge retrieval:
   - Relevant facts:
     - France is a country in Europe.
     - The capital of France is Paris.
     - Paris is the largest city in France and a major cultural and
economic center.

5. Response generation:
   - Generated response: "The capital of France is Paris. Paris is the
largest city in France and serves as the country's cultural and economic
center."

6. Output processing:
   - Final response: "The capital of France is Paris. Paris is the largest
city in France and serves as the country's cultural and economic center."

Here's another example with a more complex question: "What are the main
causes of climate change, and what can individuals do to help mitigate its
effects?"

1. Input processing:
   - Input text: "What are the main causes of climate change, and what can
individuals do to help mitigate its effects?"
   - Processed text: ["What", "are", "the", "main", "causes", "of",
"climate", "change", ",", "and", "what", "can", "individuals", "do", "to",
"help", "mitigate", "its", "effects", "?"]

2. Tokenization and embedding:
   - Tokens: ["What", "are", "the", "main", "causes", "of", "climate",
"change", ",", "and", "what", "can", "individuals", "do", "to", "help",
"mitigate", "its", "effects", "?"]
   - Embeddings: Each token is converted into a high-dimensional vector
representation.

3. Context understanding:
   - Entities: "climate change", "individuals"
   - Intent: The question is asking for the main causes of climate change
and actions individuals can take to help reduce its impact.

4. Knowledge retrieval:
   - Relevant facts:
     - Climate change is primarily caused by human activities that release
greenhouse gases into the atmosphere, such as burning fossil fuels and
deforestation.
     - Individuals can help mitigate the effects of climate change by
reducing their carbon footprint, supporting renewable energy, and
advocating for climate-friendly policies.

5. Response generation:
   - Generated response: "The main causes of climate change are human
activities that release greenhouse gases into the atmosphere, such as
burning fossil fuels for energy, transportation, and industrial processes,
as well as deforestation and land-use changes. To help mitigate the effects
of climate change, individuals can take actions such as reducing their
energy consumption, using renewable energy sources, driving less or using
electric vehicles, supporting climate-friendly policies, and making
environmentally conscious consumer choices."

6. Output processing:
   - Final response: (same as the generated response, as it is already
well-structured and concise)

These examples demonstrate how I break down and process questions to
generate relevant and informative responses based on my pre-trained
knowledge.
---------------------------
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From dsunley at gmail.com  Sun Apr 14 01:53:52 2024
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2024 19:53:52 -0600
Subject: [ExI] An article from an AI-skeptic.
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgJ10hCMu1ihF2ZA6vZOPVh98KSWeHRLfJuT2PSbZ994g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <af82eca2-7eb4-6170-0f85-c2143865f5b4@swisscows.email>
 <LD-xNwQobDf1xXfJn-7SkxQaaMSAM2NQfkzjs7D6o6uifa2NNCjKwC2BaerzMPSbKOrBmHGS-AAnT_CfsgTIMQVaBXPE5RXQlmc0eVKUCaE=@proton.me>
 <CAL_armjhk+it6KbrAe4m+TEzw+0FnkR6ScEhaV_=+fz9DPonyA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgJ10hCMu1ihF2ZA6vZOPVh98KSWeHRLfJuT2PSbZ994g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEptUkTdgMakrG8OKEimCpULM+8JFk2rx0ZLcdrMS98CdYjMOA@mail.gmail.com>

I just watched a bunch of python and neural net videos on youtube this
afternoon.

This one, in particular, is an amazing medium-level overview of what
ChatGPT is doing. It's all animated diagrams, easy to follow even if you
aren't a programmer.

The key thing you'll get from this, even if you're non-technical, is the
sheer size and complexity of what the GPT-3 transformer is doing. It's
literally mindblowing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjZofJX0v4M

On Sat, Apr 13, 2024 at 6:10?PM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 at 22:57, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> It also mystifies me. It seems that generating correct sentences is only
>> a relatively small final part of the process.
>> I asked Claude to explain how he does the trick. I don't think I really
>> even understand the explanation!  :)
>>
>
>
> So I asked Claude to explain the steps in his thinking process and give
> some examples
>
> Claude:
> As an AI language model, I use a combination of natural language
> processing (NLP) techniques and deep learning algorithms to understand and
> respond to questions. The process can be broken down into several steps:
>
> 1. Input processing: When you ask a question, I first analyze the input
> text, breaking it down into individual words, phrases, and sentences. This
> helps me understand the structure and meaning of your query.
>
> 2. Tokenization and embedding: The input text is then converted into
> numerical representations called tokens and embeddings. These
> representations capture the semantic and syntactic relationships between
> words and phrases, allowing me to process the input more effectively.
>
> 3. Context understanding: Using the embeddings and my pre-trained
> knowledge, I try to understand the context of your question. This involves
> identifying key entities, concepts, and the relationships between them, as
> well as determining the intent behind your query.
>
> 4. Knowledge retrieval: Based on the context and intent of your question,
> I access relevant information from my pre-trained knowledge base. This
> knowledge base is built using vast amounts of text data from various
> sources, such as books, articles, and websites.
>
> 5. Response generation: Using the retrieved knowledge and the context of
> your question, I generate a response. This involves selecting the most
> relevant information, structuring it coherently, and expressing it in
> natural language.
>
> 6. Output processing: Finally, the generated response is processed to
> ensure it is grammatically correct, contextually appropriate, and adheres
> to any predefined rules or constraints (such as avoiding harmful content).
>
> Throughout this process, I rely on the patterns and relationships learned
> during my training phase, which involved processing enormous amounts of
> text data. This allows me to understand and respond to a wide range of
> questions, even if they are phrased in different ways or cover topics I
> haven't encountered before.
>
> It's important to note that while I can process and respond to natural
> language effectively, my understanding is based on statistical patterns and
> associations rather than true comprehension or reasoning like humans.
> ---------
>
> Now give some examples -
>
> Claude:
>
> Certainly! Let's use the question "What is the capital of France?" as an
> example to illustrate each step.
>
> 1. Input processing:
>    - Input text: "What is the capital of France?"
>    - Processed text: ["What", "is", "the", "capital", "of", "France", "?"]
>
> 2. Tokenization and embedding:
>    - Tokens: ["What", "is", "the", "capital", "of", "France", "?"]
>    - Embeddings: Each token is converted into a high-dimensional vector
> representation. For example, "France" might be represented as [0.2, 0.4,
> -0.1, ..., 0.8].
>
> 3. Context understanding:
>    - Entities: "France" (recognized as a country)
>    - Intent: The question is asking for the capital city of France.
>
> 4. Knowledge retrieval:
>    - Relevant facts:
>      - France is a country in Europe.
>      - The capital of France is Paris.
>      - Paris is the largest city in France and a major cultural and
> economic center.
>
> 5. Response generation:
>    - Generated response: "The capital of France is Paris. Paris is the
> largest city in France and serves as the country's cultural and economic
> center."
>
> 6. Output processing:
>    - Final response: "The capital of France is Paris. Paris is the largest
> city in France and serves as the country's cultural and economic center."
>
> Here's another example with a more complex question: "What are the main
> causes of climate change, and what can individuals do to help mitigate its
> effects?"
>
> 1. Input processing:
>    - Input text: "What are the main causes of climate change, and what can
> individuals do to help mitigate its effects?"
>    - Processed text: ["What", "are", "the", "main", "causes", "of",
> "climate", "change", ",", "and", "what", "can", "individuals", "do", "to",
> "help", "mitigate", "its", "effects", "?"]
>
> 2. Tokenization and embedding:
>    - Tokens: ["What", "are", "the", "main", "causes", "of", "climate",
> "change", ",", "and", "what", "can", "individuals", "do", "to", "help",
> "mitigate", "its", "effects", "?"]
>    - Embeddings: Each token is converted into a high-dimensional vector
> representation.
>
> 3. Context understanding:
>    - Entities: "climate change", "individuals"
>    - Intent: The question is asking for the main causes of climate change
> and actions individuals can take to help reduce its impact.
>
> 4. Knowledge retrieval:
>    - Relevant facts:
>      - Climate change is primarily caused by human activities that release
> greenhouse gases into the atmosphere, such as burning fossil fuels and
> deforestation.
>      - Individuals can help mitigate the effects of climate change by
> reducing their carbon footprint, supporting renewable energy, and
> advocating for climate-friendly policies.
>
> 5. Response generation:
>    - Generated response: "The main causes of climate change are human
> activities that release greenhouse gases into the atmosphere, such as
> burning fossil fuels for energy, transportation, and industrial processes,
> as well as deforestation and land-use changes. To help mitigate the effects
> of climate change, individuals can take actions such as reducing their
> energy consumption, using renewable energy sources, driving less or using
> electric vehicles, supporting climate-friendly policies, and making
> environmentally conscious consumer choices."
>
> 6. Output processing:
>    - Final response: (same as the generated response, as it is already
> well-structured and concise)
>
> These examples demonstrate how I break down and process questions to
> generate relevant and informative responses based on my pre-trained
> knowledge.
> ---------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Apr 14 22:23:43 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2024 23:23:43 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Elizier-like AI hysteria
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRY4uzdP+XOkS3Jebib78DfUKMjkgE3A_vDcPUQb_kywg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNRY4uzdP+XOkS3Jebib78DfUKMjkgE3A_vDcPUQb_kywg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armg1AFXgApkgUPuPVk5Qu7NaWvZCPD8HQWeDpktosnt5OQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 9 Apr 2024 at 18:44, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.adl0625
>
> Scroll down to the bottom where it says "eLetters": responses are
> allowed.  I think it would be in line with Extropy's mission to submit an
> organized, coherent response to this, pointing out the numerous fallacies
> (starting with, "China won't impose these controls, so if the West tries
> this, it's only crippling itself and remedies for the alleged danger won't
> get researched") in this forum (given the exposure this forum gets).
>
> Unfortunately, I do not have all the information necessary to draft a
> coherent response.  Would anyone else on this list like to take point on
> crafting a response?  If this has to be submitted through an AAAS member,
> I'd be happy to coauthor and use my membership to get it submitted.
> _______________________________________________
>


I don't know whether this helps, but I found the full text of the article
at <https://www.science.org/doi/full/10.1126/science.adl0625>.
I asked Claude first to summarise and criticise the article, then to
discuss the problem of the USA regulating AI when other countries don't.
BillK

Claude -
Thank you for providing the correct link to the full article. Here's a
revised summary and critique that includes the discussion on the regulation
of large language models (LLMs):

Summary:
The article explores the key ingredients enabling the remarkable
capabilities of generative AI systems: inductive biases, self-supervised
learning, and prompting. The authors discuss the rapid progress in these
areas, such as the development of more efficient transformer architectures,
the use of contrastive learning, and the emergence of instruction-tuned
models. They also highlight open challenges, including the need for better
understanding of model limitations, improved sample efficiency, and more
controllable and aligned model behaviors.

Importantly, the article emphasizes the need for responsible development
and deployment of generative AI systems, particularly LLMs. The authors
argue that the potential risks associated with these systems, such as the
spread of misinformation, biased outputs, and misuse, necessitate the
development of regulatory frameworks and governance structures.

The article concludes by discussing the implications of generative AI for
the future of AI research and development, stressing the importance of
interdisciplinary collaboration and addressing societal challenges related
to AI ethics, safety, and robustness.

Critique:
The article provides a comprehensive and well-structured overview of the
key factors driving the success of generative AI systems. The authors
explain complex concepts in an accessible manner and highlight significant
developments in each area, supporting their points with concrete examples
and relevant literature.

One of the strengths of the article is its emphasis on the need for
responsible development and regulation of LLMs. The authors clearly
articulate the potential risks associated with these systems and argue for
the importance of establishing regulatory frameworks and governance
structures. This discussion is crucial, given the increasing prevalence and
influence of LLMs in various domains.

However, the article could have provided more specific recommendations or
guidelines for the development of these regulatory frameworks. While the
authors stress the importance of regulation, they do not delve into the
details of what such regulation might entail or how it could be implemented
effectively.

Additionally, the article could have further explored the challenges
associated with regulating LLMs, such as the need for international
cooperation, the difficulty of defining and measuring key concepts like
bias and fairness, and the potential unintended consequences of regulation.

Overall, the article makes a valuable contribution to the ongoing
discussion about the development and governance of generative AI systems.
It provides a clear and informative overview of the key ingredients driving
the field forward while emphasizing the critical importance of responsible
development and regulation. Despite some limitations in the depth of its
analysis of regulatory challenges, the article serves as a strong
foundation for further research and policy discussions in this area.
-------------------

Claude -
The article does not delve into the specific implications of the USA
regulating LLMs while other countries might not enforce similar
regulations. However, I can provide some general insights on how such a
scenario could potentially hinder the development of LLMs in the USA.

1. Competitive disadvantage: If the USA imposes strict regulations on the
development and deployment of LLMs, while other countries adopt a more
lenient approach, it could put American companies and researchers at a
competitive disadvantage. Companies in countries with fewer restrictions
might be able to develop and deploy LLMs more quickly and with fewer
constraints, potentially leading to a technological edge.

2. Brain drain: Stringent regulations in the USA could lead to a brain
drain, where talented AI researchers and developers choose to work in
countries with more favorable regulatory environments. This could hinder
the USA's ability to attract and retain top talent in the field of
generative AI.

3. Limited access to data: Regulations in the USA might restrict the
collection, storage, and use of data for training LLMs. If other countries
have fewer limitations on data access, their researchers and companies
might be able to train more powerful and versatile models.

4. Reduced investment: The presence of strict regulations in the USA could
deter investment in American AI companies and research institutions.
Investors might prefer to fund projects in countries with more lenient
regulatory frameworks, where the path to commercialization and
profitability is perceived to be easier.

5. Collaboration challenges: Differing regulatory standards across
countries could create barriers to international collaboration in LLM
research and development. This could slow down progress and limit the
exchange of ideas and resources.

However, it is important to note that the absence of regulation also
carries risks. Without proper governance, the development of LLMs could
lead to unintended consequences, such as the spread of misinformation,
privacy violations, and the exacerbation of social biases. A balanced
approach to regulation, which promotes responsible development while not
unduly hindering innovation, would be ideal.

Furthermore, if the USA takes the lead in developing thoughtful and
effective regulatory frameworks for LLMs, it could set a positive example
for other countries to follow. This could help to establish global
standards and best practices, ensuring that the benefits of generative AI
are realized while minimizing potential harms.
----------------------------------
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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Apr 15 00:16:20 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2024 01:16:20 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Elizier-like AI hysteria
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armg1AFXgApkgUPuPVk5Qu7NaWvZCPD8HQWeDpktosnt5OQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNRY4uzdP+XOkS3Jebib78DfUKMjkgE3A_vDcPUQb_kywg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armg1AFXgApkgUPuPVk5Qu7NaWvZCPD8HQWeDpktosnt5OQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjh4vHeepsz+xddumERV1xOyC_Y0fgYfho=_FXBmdrY6A@mail.gmail.com>

I had another Claude session and rephrased the questions to produce a
similar, but different, response from Claude.
BillK

Claude:
Thank you for providing the full text of the article. I will now provide a
critique of the main points and arguments presented.

Summary:
The article argues for the need to regulate advanced artificial
intelligence (AI) systems, particularly long-term planning agents (LTPAs),
which could potentially circumvent safeguards and thwart human control. The
authors propose that developers should not be permitted to build
sufficiently capable LTPAs and that the resources required to build them
should be subject to stringent controls. They also suggest establishing
regulatory bodies with the legal authority and technical capacity to
prevent the development of such agents.

Critique:
1. The article raises valid concerns about the potential risks associated
with advanced AI systems, particularly those that can plan over long time
horizons and optimize for rewards. The authors effectively highlight the
incentives for such systems to secure ongoing rewards and control their
environment, potentially leading to catastrophic consequences.

2. The distinction between short-sighted and long-term planning agents is
crucial in understanding the unique risks posed by LTPAs. The authors
provide a clear definition of LTPAs and explain why they require special
attention from regulators.

3. The critique of the current regulatory proposals is well-founded. The
authors correctly point out that existing approaches, such as empirical
safety testing, may be insufficient or even dangerous when dealing with
sufficiently capable LTPAs that can recognize and game the testing process.

4. The proposal to establish regulatory bodies with the authority to
prevent the development of dangerously capable LTPAs is a proactive
approach to mitigating existential risks. However, the article could have
provided more details on how these regulatory institutions would operate
and enforce their mandates effectively.

5. The authors acknowledge the difficulty in determining the threshold for
"sufficiently capable" LTPAs and suggest that regulators err on the side of
caution. While this is a prudent approach, it may also hinder the
development of potentially beneficial AI systems. The article could have
explored this trade-off in more detail and provided guidance on striking
the right balance.

6. The call for computer scientists to develop a robust scientific method
for estimating the resources needed to develop LTPAs with dangerous
capabilities is important. However, the article does not provide concrete
suggestions on how this could be achieved or what such a method might
entail.

7. The article is well-structured and presents its arguments clearly. The
use of examples and references to current regulatory efforts helps
contextualize the discussion and highlights the urgency of the issue.

Overall, the article makes a compelling case for the need to regulate
advanced AI systems, particularly LTPAs, and proposes a proactive approach
to mitigating existential risks. While some aspects could have been
explored in more depth, the article serves as a valuable contribution to
the ongoing discussion on AI governance and safety.
------------------

Claude:
While the proposed regulations on long-term planning agents (LTPAs) aim to
mitigate existential risks, implementing such regulations in the United
States could also have some detrimental consequences. Here are a few
potential drawbacks to consider:

1. Stifling innovation: Stringent regulations on the development of LTPAs
could hinder research and innovation in the field of artificial
intelligence. Researchers and companies may be discouraged from exploring
potentially beneficial applications of LTPAs due to the regulatory burden
and the fear of unintentionally crossing the threshold for "dangerously
capable" systems.

2. Competitive disadvantage: If the United States imposes strict
regulations on LTPAs while other countries do not, it could put the US at a
competitive disadvantage in the global AI race. Companies and researchers
may choose to relocate to countries with more permissive regulatory
environments, leading to a brain drain and a loss of technological
leadership for the US.

3. Difficulty in enforcement: Enforcing regulations on the development of
LTPAs may prove challenging, as it would require close monitoring of
research activities and resources used by AI developers. This could lead to
privacy concerns and may be difficult to implement effectively, especially
if developers attempt to circumvent the regulations.

4. Overregulation: If the threshold for "sufficiently capable" LTPAs is set
too low, it could result in overregulation of AI systems that pose minimal
risks. This could unnecessarily burden developers and slow down the
development of beneficial AI applications in various domains, such as
healthcare, education, and scientific research.

5. Lack of international coordination: If the United States implements LTPA
regulations unilaterally, it may not effectively mitigate global risks if
other countries continue to develop advanced AI systems without similar
constraints. To be truly effective, AI governance efforts should involve
international cooperation and coordination.

6. Unintended consequences: As with any new regulatory framework, there may
be unintended consequences that are difficult to predict. For example,
strict regulations on LTPAs could drive the development of such systems
underground, making it harder to monitor and control their progress.

7. Regulatory capture: There is a risk that the regulatory bodies tasked
with overseeing LTPA development could be influenced by industry interests
or political pressures, leading to suboptimal or ineffective regulations.

While these potential drawbacks should be carefully considered, it is
important to note that they do not necessarily outweigh the benefits of
regulating LTPAs to mitigate existential risks. Policymakers should strive
to find a balance between promoting innovation and ensuring the safe
development of advanced AI systems. This may involve a gradual, adaptive
approach to regulation that is informed by ongoing research and
international collaboration.
---------------------
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From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Apr 17 19:38:10 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2024 20:38:10 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Life Beyond Remastered video
Message-ID: <CAL_armisXE7um+7bq_nJdp6gk6GgAQfGtkRRby5JkgzCNwkGYQ@mail.gmail.com>

Are we alone? What might alien species look like? And what could we learn
from them? Proudly presenting Life Beyond Remastered, a film that weaves
all 3 episodes of the series together with new content and updated visuals
& audio into a feature-length experience.

<
https://lifeboat.com/blog/2024/04/life-beyond-visions-of-alien-life-full-documentary-remastered-4k
>

Note: This spectacular video is 1 hour 48 min. long!
(But probably worth the effort).  :)

BillK

AI summary of the video:
00:00:00 <https://youtube.com/watch?v=dww8Hekngmg&t=0> - 01:00:00
<https://youtube.com/watch?v=dww8Hekngmg&t=3600>

In the documentary "LIFE BEYOND: Visions of Alien Life
<https://www.amazon.com/gp/search?ie=UTF8&tag=summarizetech-20&index=aps&keywords=Alien%20Life>,"
the narrator explores the possibility of civilizations in the universe and
the conditions necessary for complex life to emerge. Earth is presented as
an example of a planet with ideal conditions, including energy, a diverse
range of chemical elements, and liquid water. The origins of life on Earth
and the possibility of extraterrestrial life are also discussed. New
research suggests that life emerged on Earth around 4 billion years ago,
and the galaxy's abundance in water, organic molecules, and complex
chemistry increases the likelihood of life on other planets. The
documentary suggests that moons around giant gas planets, such as Enceladus
and Titan, could be new frontiers for discovering life due to their
subsurface oceans and potential for hydrothermal vents. The possibility of
life existing on Venus and the implications of discovering extraterrestrial
life are also discussed. The documentary explores the origins of the
elements necessary for life and the potential habitability of planets
orbiting long-lived red stars. Scientists discuss the challenges and
possibilities of finding alien life and the potential for convergent
evolution leading to similar life forms on other planets. The documentary
also explores the potential forms of life on exoplanets, including the
possibility of silicon-based life forms and life in unexpected places like
cosmic dust and the extreme environments surrounding neutron stars.
01:00:00 <https://youtube.com/watch?v=dww8Hekngmg&t=3600> - 01:45:00
<https://youtube.com/watch?v=dww8Hekngmg&t=6300>

In the documentary "LIFE BEYOND: Visions of Alien Life," the discussion
explores the potential for synthetic and machine-based life to surpass
biological organisms in terms of success and adaptability. The possibility
of encountering alien life and the significance of that encounter for human
evolution and understanding our origins is also explored. Methods used to
make contact with extraterrestrial life, such as radio waves and laser
beams, are discussed, along with the potential signs of alien civilizations
and the challenges they might face. The documentary also ponders the
possibility that reality is a simulation and that humans could be the first
in a lineage of extraterrestrial beings, setting the foundation for a
"galactic encyclopedia." The search for extraterrestrial intelligence is
driven by a deep human desire to connect with something greater and expand
our understanding of existence.

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From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Apr 17 20:20:00 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2024 21:20:00 +0100
Subject: [ExI] New Boston Dynamics Atlas robot (now electric)
Message-ID: <CAL_arminyD1C9G_qpenozpOBFLQD5J0Owquv1dHeOHVuV40BSw@mail.gmail.com>

Boston Dynamics' humanoid Atlas is dead, long live the ... new commercial Atlas

<https://www.theregister.com/2024/04/17/boston_dynamics_atlas_is_dead/>
(includes 39-second video).
Quotes:
Atlas, the humanoid robot that's been a centerpiece of Boston
Dynamics' robot lineup for nearly a decade, has been retired.
In its place is, well, Atlas - an all-electric version designed for
commercial use.
Boston Dynamics announced the retirement of the hydraulic version of
Atlas (HD Atlas) in a video issued yesterday with no other explanation
.
A 39-second video showing the new all-electric Atlas appeared on YouTube today.
The all-electric Atlas was designed to be "stronger, more dexterous,
and more agile" than its hydraulic predecessors, but it's not
immediately clear whether it'll be capable of some of the physical
feats that the older model was capable of - such as backflips and
parkour - that might be better suited to hydraulics than electric
motors. Boston Dynamics told us it'll generally be "stronger and more
capable," and that it'll share more about the bot later this year.
-------------------

BillK

From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Apr 18 08:50:29 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2024 09:50:29 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Poe (i.e.Claude) now has multi-bot chat
Message-ID: <CAL_armgMOJdMnQN3iU9bFFtwpkqehSNrgNDGdFrg4Ree7vLqfw@mail.gmail.com>

Talk to several chatbots in one conversation.

See: <https://quorablog.quora.com/Multi-bot-chat-on-Poe>
Quote:
Today we are adding an important new capability to Poe: multi-bot
chat. This feature lets you easily chat with multiple models in a
single thread.

Multi-bot chat is important because different models have different
strengths and weaknesses. Some are optimized for specific tasks and
others have unique knowledge. As you query a bot on Poe, you now can
compare answers from recommended bots with one click, and summon any
bot you prefer by @-mentioning the bot - all within the same
conversation thread. This new ability lets you easily compare results
from various bots and discover optimal combinations of models to use
the best tool for each step in a workflow.
-------------------

You don't have to have a paid subscription to every bot.
Quote:
if you?re not a subscriber you can use the free bots, which are the
majority of bots on the platform. They?re not quite as high quality
because we don?t have as much money to spend running them, but they?re
sufficient for many purposes.
-------------------

To try them out, go to <https://poe.com/login>
When I asked a question, after the answer Poe suggested several other
chatbots where I could ask the same question, to compare responses.

BillK


From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Apr 18 10:34:14 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2024 11:34:14 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Legal euthanasia for mental problems increasing worldwide
Message-ID: <CAL_armideZcaoMHLUPGr1t5aAhrwVb7nRB9gAbBvE+FcbL0RAA@mail.gmail.com>

Most cases of assisted suicide or euthanasia (ASE) in the Netherlands
? the first country to legalise the practice in 2002 ? involve people
with terminal illnesses. But ASE for psychiatric reasons is on the
rise. In 2010, only two people sought euthanasia on the grounds of
mental health. That increased to 68 in 2019 and to 138 last year.

<https://www.spiked-online.com/2024/04/18/why-are-dutch-doctors-euthanising-a-healthy-young-woman/>

Quotes:
Psychiatric euthanasia remains divisive in the Netherlands. Many Dutch
people who were initially in favour of ASE are reconsidering their
positions because of it. Boudewijn Chabot is one such critic, a
psychiatrist who actually received a suspended sentence for carrying
out the first reported case of euthanasia for psychiatric reasons in
the 1990s. Now Chabot worries that the legalisation of ASE has gone
too far. ?I am not against euthanasia in psychiatry or severe
dementia?, he writes. ?[But] I am extremely concerned that doctors are
trying to solve social misery due to lack of treatment and care, by
opening the gate to the end.?
In Canada, people seek out euthanasia to solve poverty, homelessness
and lack of medical care. In the Netherlands, therapists seem to have
given up on treating the mentally unwell, recommending euthanasia
instead.
--------------

Extending euthanasia to get rid of problems or difficult cases sounds
very dubious to me.

BillK


From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Apr 18 11:34:12 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2024 12:34:12 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Future of Humanity Institute at Oxford University has closed
 down
Message-ID: <CAL_armg-ss3BYZpt_vPSnshf9faLBjfBkE+9dTK_m=DhK72hMw@mail.gmail.com>

Established in 2005, initially for a 3-year period, the Future of
Humanity Institute was a multidisciplinary research group at Oxford
University.  It was founded by Prof Nick Bostrom.

<https://www.futureofhumanityinstitute.org/>

Quote:
Over time FHI faced increasing administrative headwinds within the
Faculty of Philosophy (the Institute?s organizational home).  Starting
in 2020, the Faculty imposed a freeze on fundraising and hiring.  In
late 2023, the Faculty of Philosophy decided that the contracts of the
remaining FHI staff would not be renewed.  On 16 April 2024, the
Institute was closed down.
---------------

BillK


From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Apr 18 14:07:42 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2024 15:07:42 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Future of Humanity Institute at Oxford University has
 closed down
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armg-ss3BYZpt_vPSnshf9faLBjfBkE+9dTK_m=DhK72hMw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armg-ss3BYZpt_vPSnshf9faLBjfBkE+9dTK_m=DhK72hMw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armh_u0LwLPwwZqdKTYgRNwLqVck83qPwE4_tmZacQ7kUJQ@mail.gmail.com>

Final Report of FHI History by Anders Sandberg.

<
https://ora.ox.ac.uk/objects/uuid:8c1ab46a-061c-479d-b587-8909989e4f51/files/s707959314
>

Quote:
Preamble
Normally manifestos are written first, and then hopefully stimulate actors
to implement their vision. This
document is the reverse: an epitaph summarizing what the Future of Humanity
Institute was, what we
did and why, what we learned, and what we think comes next.

It can be seen as an oral history of FHI from some of its members. It will
not be unbiased, nor complete,
but hopefully a useful historical source. I have received input from other
people who worked at FHI, but
it is my perspective and others would no doubt place somewhat different
emphasis on the various
strands of FHI work.
----------------
BillK


On Thu, 18 Apr 2024 at 12:34, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> Established in 2005, initially for a 3-year period, the Future of
> Humanity Institute was a multidisciplinary research group at Oxford
> University.  It was founded by Prof Nick Bostrom.
>
> <https://www.futureofhumanityinstitute.org/>
>
> Quote:
> Over time FHI faced increasing administrative headwinds within the
> Faculty of Philosophy (the Institute?s organizational home).  Starting
> in 2020, the Faculty imposed a freeze on fundraising and hiring.  In
> late 2023, the Faculty of Philosophy decided that the contracts of the
> remaining FHI staff would not be renewed.  On 16 April 2024, the
> Institute was closed down.
> ---------------
>
> BillK
>
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From efc at swisscows.email  Thu Apr 18 19:00:50 2024
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2024 21:00:50 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Legal euthanasia for mental problems increasing worldwide
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armideZcaoMHLUPGr1t5aAhrwVb7nRB9gAbBvE+FcbL0RAA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armideZcaoMHLUPGr1t5aAhrwVb7nRB9gAbBvE+FcbL0RAA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ee5cabb1-3cbc-ec93-c940-3d7b9af1c89c@swisscows.email>

I'm all for it on an individual basis, however, having people recommend it 
could lead to some thorny ethical issues.

On Thu, 18 Apr 2024, BillK via extropy-chat wrote:

> Most cases of assisted suicide or euthanasia (ASE) in the Netherlands
> ? the first country to legalise the practice in 2002 ? involve people
> with terminal illnesses. But ASE for psychiatric reasons is on the
> rise. In 2010, only two people sought euthanasia on the grounds of
> mental health. That increased to 68 in 2019 and to 138 last year.
>
> <https://www.spiked-online.com/2024/04/18/why-are-dutch-doctors-euthanising-a-healthy-young-woman/>
>
> Quotes:
> Psychiatric euthanasia remains divisive in the Netherlands. Many Dutch
> people who were initially in favour of ASE are reconsidering their
> positions because of it. Boudewijn Chabot is one such critic, a
> psychiatrist who actually received a suspended sentence for carrying
> out the first reported case of euthanasia for psychiatric reasons in
> the 1990s. Now Chabot worries that the legalisation of ASE has gone
> too far. ?I am not against euthanasia in psychiatry or severe
> dementia?, he writes. ?[But] I am extremely concerned that doctors are
> trying to solve social misery due to lack of treatment and care, by
> opening the gate to the end.?
> In Canada, people seek out euthanasia to solve poverty, homelessness
> and lack of medical care. In the Netherlands, therapists seem to have
> given up on treating the mentally unwell, recommending euthanasia
> instead.
> --------------
>
> Extending euthanasia to get rid of problems or difficult cases sounds
> very dubious to me.
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

From efc at swisscows.email  Thu Apr 18 19:02:47 2024
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2024 21:02:47 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Future of Humanity Institute at Oxford University has
 closed down
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armg-ss3BYZpt_vPSnshf9faLBjfBkE+9dTK_m=DhK72hMw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armg-ss3BYZpt_vPSnshf9faLBjfBkE+9dTK_m=DhK72hMw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ca522827-206c-efdc-5b4c-870c8843f81c@swisscows.email>

Interesting. I think Bostr?m has gotten quite a lot of exposure recently, 
but apparently not enough to keep the money flowing.

I wonder if he will just recede back into the philosophy department or if 
he'll start a new organization with new backers?

On Thu, 18 Apr 2024, BillK via extropy-chat wrote:

> Established in 2005, initially for a 3-year period, the Future of
> Humanity Institute was a multidisciplinary research group at Oxford
> University.  It was founded by Prof Nick Bostrom.
>
> <https://www.futureofhumanityinstitute.org/>
>
> Quote:
> Over time FHI faced increasing administrative headwinds within the
> Faculty of Philosophy (the Institute?s organizational home).  Starting
> in 2020, the Faculty imposed a freeze on fundraising and hiring.  In
> late 2023, the Faculty of Philosophy decided that the contracts of the
> remaining FHI staff would not be renewed.  On 16 April 2024, the
> Institute was closed down.
> ---------------
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Apr 18 20:51:59 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2024 13:51:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Legal euthanasia for mental problems increasing worldwide
In-Reply-To: <ee5cabb1-3cbc-ec93-c940-3d7b9af1c89c@swisscows.email>
References: <CAL_armideZcaoMHLUPGr1t5aAhrwVb7nRB9gAbBvE+FcbL0RAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <ee5cabb1-3cbc-ec93-c940-3d7b9af1c89c@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQrKm6vp4x_gtsi3kxDpePqYHos8suWAgpGmbN3JvPJXg@mail.gmail.com>

Agreed.  For example, quite a few MAGA types would recommend it for any
Democrat, on the basis that being a Democrat is incurable insanity - and
some Democrats would recommend it for the most extreme MAGA types on the
same basis.

On Thu, Apr 18, 2024 at 12:08?PM efc--- via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I'm all for it on an individual basis, however, having people recommend it
> could lead to some thorny ethical issues.
>
> On Thu, 18 Apr 2024, BillK via extropy-chat wrote:
>
> > Most cases of assisted suicide or euthanasia (ASE) in the Netherlands
> > ? the first country to legalise the practice in 2002 ? involve people
> > with terminal illnesses. But ASE for psychiatric reasons is on the
> > rise. In 2010, only two people sought euthanasia on the grounds of
> > mental health. That increased to 68 in 2019 and to 138 last year.
> >
> > <
> https://www.spiked-online.com/2024/04/18/why-are-dutch-doctors-euthanising-a-healthy-young-woman/
> >
> >
> > Quotes:
> > Psychiatric euthanasia remains divisive in the Netherlands. Many Dutch
> > people who were initially in favour of ASE are reconsidering their
> > positions because of it. Boudewijn Chabot is one such critic, a
> > psychiatrist who actually received a suspended sentence for carrying
> > out the first reported case of euthanasia for psychiatric reasons in
> > the 1990s. Now Chabot worries that the legalisation of ASE has gone
> > too far. ?I am not against euthanasia in psychiatry or severe
> > dementia?, he writes. ?[But] I am extremely concerned that doctors are
> > trying to solve social misery due to lack of treatment and care, by
> > opening the gate to the end.?
> > In Canada, people seek out euthanasia to solve poverty, homelessness
> > and lack of medical care. In the Netherlands, therapists seem to have
> > given up on treating the mentally unwell, recommending euthanasia
> > instead.
> > --------------
> >
> > Extending euthanasia to get rid of problems or difficult cases sounds
> > very dubious to me.
> >
> > BillK
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From dsunley at gmail.com  Fri Apr 19 18:57:42 2024
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2024 12:57:42 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Legal euthanasia for mental problems increasing worldwide
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQrKm6vp4x_gtsi3kxDpePqYHos8suWAgpGmbN3JvPJXg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armideZcaoMHLUPGr1t5aAhrwVb7nRB9gAbBvE+FcbL0RAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <ee5cabb1-3cbc-ec93-c940-3d7b9af1c89c@swisscows.email>
 <CALAdGNQrKm6vp4x_gtsi3kxDpePqYHos8suWAgpGmbN3JvPJXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEptUkQ8nWad7d8YbJrDEZ=K-doftiL624ZCnLf7y6wRK5vopA@mail.gmail.com>

As a centrist Canadian GenXer, I've been killed to go kill myself by a lot
more social justice warriors than rednecks, just sayin'.

On Thu, Apr 18, 2024 at 2:54?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Agreed.  For example, quite a few MAGA types would recommend it for any
> Democrat, on the basis that being a Democrat is incurable insanity - and
> some Democrats would recommend it for the most extreme MAGA types on the
> same basis.
>
> On Thu, Apr 18, 2024 at 12:08?PM efc--- via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> I'm all for it on an individual basis, however, having people recommend
>> it
>> could lead to some thorny ethical issues.
>>
>> On Thu, 18 Apr 2024, BillK via extropy-chat wrote:
>>
>> > Most cases of assisted suicide or euthanasia (ASE) in the Netherlands
>> > ? the first country to legalise the practice in 2002 ? involve people
>> > with terminal illnesses. But ASE for psychiatric reasons is on the
>> > rise. In 2010, only two people sought euthanasia on the grounds of
>> > mental health. That increased to 68 in 2019 and to 138 last year.
>> >
>> > <
>> https://www.spiked-online.com/2024/04/18/why-are-dutch-doctors-euthanising-a-healthy-young-woman/
>> >
>> >
>> > Quotes:
>> > Psychiatric euthanasia remains divisive in the Netherlands. Many Dutch
>> > people who were initially in favour of ASE are reconsidering their
>> > positions because of it. Boudewijn Chabot is one such critic, a
>> > psychiatrist who actually received a suspended sentence for carrying
>> > out the first reported case of euthanasia for psychiatric reasons in
>> > the 1990s. Now Chabot worries that the legalisation of ASE has gone
>> > too far. ?I am not against euthanasia in psychiatry or severe
>> > dementia?, he writes. ?[But] I am extremely concerned that doctors are
>> > trying to solve social misery due to lack of treatment and care, by
>> > opening the gate to the end.?
>> > In Canada, people seek out euthanasia to solve poverty, homelessness
>> > and lack of medical care. In the Netherlands, therapists seem to have
>> > given up on treating the mentally unwell, recommending euthanasia
>> > instead.
>> > --------------
>> >
>> > Extending euthanasia to get rid of problems or difficult cases sounds
>> > very dubious to me.
>> >
>> > BillK
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From tcporco at gmail.com  Fri Apr 19 19:44:54 2024
From: tcporco at gmail.com (Travis Porco)
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2024 12:44:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] after upload, what?
Message-ID: <CACOs+YtmCn1GD4+GvAShvScu5eu47OZ3wcgJUp3djHO73Lep7A@mail.gmail.com>

From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>

[snip]

>> Thank you--yes, this is the sort of thing.  Up to a point.  One does
>> not want the
>> upload to be a limited, static memorial thing, but rather a capable
>> agent capable
>> of continued growth.

>> The challenge is only partly technical, but also legal.  Getting a
>> mechanism to maintain
>> such an entity in its digital valhalla after the primary has died is
>> actually the main challenge
>> right now.

>I wrote about this 18 years ago.

>The people in that story who were subjected to uploading did not die.
>The uploading was bi-directional and they went back and forth a number
>of times before settling in the uploaded state.

>The clinic where the uploads were located was nanotech based, solar
>powered, and self repairing.

>Keith

Today we have to do with unidirectional more or less.  I don't think
what we can do now should really be called "upload", since it's not as full
as people have come to expect from that word.  "Digital reincarnation" isn't
so great either for the same reason.  I would like "reinstantiation" or even
"transinstantiation" (though the latter is confused with unrelated issues
in the culture). "Digital metamorphosis" might have to do, and it lets us
separate it into "instars".

In the first you just do your best to transfer as much of your personality,
thoughts, memories, propensities into durable digital form, using the
capability of modern AIs to allow thought (shallow thought, but thought
all the same). This is the sort of thing Replika did.  The goal is preservation
of the narrative self.

In the next instars, with help from others, the nascent agent should gain
capability, and then later still, what is arguably consciousness.  I will
leave vague what this means, since too little is known at this time.

--tcp

From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Sat Apr 20 09:44:43 2024
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2024 03:44:43 -0600
Subject: [ExI] [TIQ] RIP Daniel Dennett
In-Reply-To: <CAJvaNPkmYk9K9eeXqwXSU8uDv-YQhCP_t4oDi9r+5uFUNuANew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJvaNPnuty2CJcuwdL5O-86s1To5_kXQRwjcJ8f+Xt74MGa_KA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypU=B05=eyTWcBQbYAOBJ4P3-G3HbWS9gYRtbaDSZ-rEDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvaNPkPTOo-kH4maGUu4Y5fx9a64nc8i-h4=w=NDj2BH127uQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvaNPnT1-3ysm0N0bn_eT=YwwoX_tOxuzE70DEX57Ra-dQckg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvaNPkmYk9K9eeXqwXSU8uDv-YQhCP_t4oDi9r+5uFUNuANew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-ons0Vx54C+2pdWyeW+GuEHYMOeOv5MxXtOmiGvks3z0a5g@mail.gmail.com>

Wow I can't believe how affected I was when I heard this news.  What a gut
punch.  This was soo unexpected.

He was quite inactive in the field of consciousness for many years after he
published "Consciousness Explained", then he started getting active again.
I tried and succeeded at attending conferences where he was the keynote
speaker.  We even got his personal approval regarding his predictive
bayesian coding theory camp
<https://canonizer.com/topic/88-Theories-of-Consciousness/21-Dennett-s-PBC-Theory>,
a fan of his created and still supports under the substance dualism
<https://canonizer.com/topic/88-Theories-of-Consciousness/18-Qualia-Emerge-from-Function>
super camp.  And of course you can see how he plays a critical role in
illustrating the consensus building power of Canonizer in this video
<https://canonizer.com/videos/consciousness/representational-qualia-theory-consensus>
of
ours.

He was very publicly critical of John Smythies (of Smythies Car Hypothesis
<https://canonizer.com/topic/88-Theories-of-Consciousness/14-Smythies-Carr-Hypothesis>
fame), the brilliant neuroscience researcher at UCSD, for being a substance
dualist, often saying in public "He should know better" ;)  John was one of
the most active supporters of canonizer, helping to build and support
the substance
dualism branch
<https://canonizer.com/topic/88-Theories-of-Consciousness/48-Substance-Dualism>,
showing how there are people that believe in substance dualism, despite how
they are nearly tarred and feathered for publicly admitting such.  It was
even harder for me when John died a few years back.

I can't wait till we get the resurrection technology
<https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ybLgIbOSDu9-ye1wAu9B5RnCBuSVcIihtXrhtVWZajo/edit>
to bring these guys back.  And I wish AI would hurry and find a cure for
aging, so we could quit losing the great ones like these.

Have you guys seen Kurzweil these days?  He is really not looking good
lately.  I fear I'm going to see him in the headlines some day.  That will
hurt more than anyone.  Is there any way we could all throw him a party
before he goes or something?

Losing your good friends and heroes, especially the personal ones for me
like Sasha <https://transhumanism.fandom.com/wiki/Alexander_Chislenko> and
Marvin <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Minsky>,  (I know many of you
here knew these guys) is the hardest part of getting old.













On Sat, Apr 20, 2024 at 1:51?AM Gordon Swobe <gordon.swobe at gmail.com> wrote:

> From that dialogue...
> --
> Me:
> Can you quote some of your own writings to support this view?
>
> Daniel Dennett:
> Certainly, my thoughts on the nature of understanding and the capabilities
> of AI have been woven through many of my writings. Here are a couple of
> excerpts that reflect my stance on these issues...
> --
>
> I have not verified those quotes that virtual Dennett attributes to
> itself. They might be confabulations, but this would only be more evidence
> that language models have no freaking idea what they are talking about.
>
> -gts
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 20, 2024 at 12:02?AM Gordon Swobe <gordon.swobe at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I then asked the late Dennettt the $64,000 question:
>>
>> Me:
>> Do you believe sensorless language models trained only on text have a
>> genuine understanding of language and the world? Please be unequivocal in
>> your reply.
>>
>> Daniel Dennett
>> Unequivocally, no, I do not believe that sensorless language models,
>> trained solely on text, have a genuine understanding of language and the
>> world. These models, including the one you are interacting with now?though
>> it bears my name and mimics my style of reasoning?operate without
>> consciousness, without awareness, and crucially, without the kind of
>> understanding that humans bring to their interactions and interpretations
>> of language.
>>
>> These models process and generate language based on patterns and
>> statistical correlations found within the vast datasets they have been
>> trained on. They can produce text that is often coherent, sometimes
>> insightful, or even seemingly thoughtful. However, this should not be
>> mistaken for genuine understanding. Understanding, in the sense that we
>> attribute to human cognitive processes, involves contextual awareness,
>> experiential input, and often a subjective consciousness?elements that
>> these models do not possess.
>>
>> In my view, understanding is deeply tied to having a variety of cognitive
>> states that these models simply do not have. They do not feel, perceive, or
>> experience the world; they decode and manipulate symbols in sophisticated
>> ways but remain fundamentally disconnected from the realities those symbols
>> represent. The depth and richness of human understanding are thus far
>> beyond the reach of current AI technologies, regardless of their linguistic
>> prowess.
>>
>> Me:
>> Can you quote some of your own writings to support this view?
>>
>> Daniel Dennett:
>> Certainly, my thoughts on the nature of understanding and the
>> capabilities of AI have been woven through many of my writings. Here are a
>> couple of excerpts that reflect my stance on these issues:
>>
>> From Intuition Pumps and Other Tools for Thinking (2013), I discuss the
>> limitations of machine understanding:
>> "The first thing to remember about what computers can't do is that
>> they're only made of silicon chips and wires?they don't have feelings and
>> they don't have experiences. When a computer 'says' it understands
>> something, it doesn't. It simulates understanding."
>>
>> In From Bacteria to Bach and Back (2017), I delve into the complexities
>> of human consciousness and contrast it with artificial systems:
>> "Machines are not like organisms; organisms are agents; they have
>> purposes, and hence meanings, and hence minds; machines are tools that some
>> agents can use to further their own purposes."
>>
>> These excerpts underline the distinction I make between the superficial
>> mimicry of understanding we see in AI and the genuine, experiential-based
>> understanding that characterizes human beings. Machines, as they currently
>> stand, operate without the necessary backdrop of experiences, sensations,
>> and subjective consciousness that are integral to what we consider
>> "understanding" in any meaningful sense.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 19, 2024 at 11:45?PM Gordon Swobe <gordon.swobe at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> [image: image.png]
>>> Dear Professor Dennett,
>>>
>>> We were all sorry to hear you passed away, but you still live on in
>>> other ways. How do you wish to be remembered? What is your legacy?
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>>
>>> Your admiring students
>>>
>>> Daniel Dennett:
>>>
>>> Dear admiring students,
>>>
>>> Your words carry a kind of whimsicality and depth that is greatly
>>> appreciated. As I contemplate the legacy one might leave behind?a notion as
>>> abstract as it is tied to the tangible?I find myself inclined towards the
>>> simpler, broader strokes of remembrance.
>>>
>>> Primarily, I hope to be remembered as a philosopher who contributed to
>>> understanding the mind in a manner that bridges, rather than widens, the
>>> gaps between science and the humanities. My efforts to demystify
>>> consciousness and to argue for the importance of evolutionary biology in
>>> understanding our cognitive functions were driven by a desire to
>>> illuminate, not obfuscate.
>>>
>>> Furthermore, I've always aimed to instill a sense of philosophical
>>> craftsmanship, a respect for the tools of our trade: clear arguments,
>>> critical thinking, and a commitment to pursuing truth, however complex or
>>> multifaceted it might be. The discussions around free will, moral
>>> responsibility, and the nature of human understanding are ones I hope have
>>> left and will continue to leave a fertile ground for thought and further
>>> inquiry.
>>>
>>> Lastly, through my writings and talks, if I've managed to provoke a
>>> sense of wonder, a chuckle or two at the absurdity of existence, or a more
>>> refined appreciation for the intricate dance of genes and memes, then I
>>> would count my philosophical mission as well met.
>>>
>>> Yours in continued dialogue,
>>> Daniel Dennett
>>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 19, 2024 at 9:09?PM Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 20 Apr 2024 at 12:56, Gordon Swobe <gordon.swobe at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I didn't know Dennett was a student of Quine at Harvard. I've quoted
>>>>> Quine here a couple of times.
>>>>>
>>>>> Philosopher Daniel Dennett dead at 82
>>>>>
>>>>> https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/04/philosopher-daniel-dennett-dead-at-82/
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There are many science popularisers but he was one of the rare
>>>> popularisers of philosophy.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Stathis Papaioannou
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>> Groups "The Important Questions" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>>> an email to the-important-questions+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/the-important-questions/CAH%3D2ypU%3DB05%3DeyTWcBQbYAOBJ4P3-G3HbWS9gYRtbaDSZ-rEDg%40mail.gmail.com
>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/the-important-questions/CAH%3D2ypU%3DB05%3DeyTWcBQbYAOBJ4P3-G3HbWS9gYRtbaDSZ-rEDg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "The Important Questions" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to the-important-questions+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/the-important-questions/CAJvaNPkmYk9K9eeXqwXSU8uDv-YQhCP_t4oDi9r%2B5uFUNuANew%40mail.gmail.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/the-important-questions/CAJvaNPkmYk9K9eeXqwXSU8uDv-YQhCP_t4oDi9r%2B5uFUNuANew%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sat Apr 20 18:00:47 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2024 11:00:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] [TIQ] RIP Daniel Dennett
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-ons0Vx54C+2pdWyeW+GuEHYMOeOv5MxXtOmiGvks3z0a5g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJvaNPnuty2CJcuwdL5O-86s1To5_kXQRwjcJ8f+Xt74MGa_KA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypU=B05=eyTWcBQbYAOBJ4P3-G3HbWS9gYRtbaDSZ-rEDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvaNPkPTOo-kH4maGUu4Y5fx9a64nc8i-h4=w=NDj2BH127uQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvaNPnT1-3ysm0N0bn_eT=YwwoX_tOxuzE70DEX57Ra-dQckg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvaNPkmYk9K9eeXqwXSU8uDv-YQhCP_t4oDi9r+5uFUNuANew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-ons0Vx54C+2pdWyeW+GuEHYMOeOv5MxXtOmiGvks3z0a5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5b5=X6Qe1yrzvZb6s61dqu5+6GeSLWjWL9XjA1bx-0Kw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 20, 2024 at 2:46?AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> snip
>
> I can't wait till we get the resurrection technology
> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ybLgIbOSDu9-ye1wAu9B5RnCBuSVcIihtXrhtVWZajo/edit>
> to bring these guys back.  And I wish AI would hurry and find a cure for
> aging, so we could quit losing the great ones like these.
>

We have cryonics.  I seriously doubt on information theoretic grounds that
we will get back anyone who has not been cryonically suspended.

>
> Have you guys seen Kurzweil these days?  He is really not looking good
> lately.  I fear I'm going to see him in the headlines some day.  That will
> hurt more than anyone.  Is there any way we could all throw him a party
> before he goes or something?
>
> Kurtzweil is signed up with Alcor, same as me, Damien Broderick, Eric
Drexler, Ralph Merkel, a long list of people we know, but not enough of
them.  Perhaps we need to start a list of people we want to be signed up.
It really hurt when Vernor Vinge died.


> Losing your good friends and heroes, especially the personal ones for me
> like Sasha <https://transhumanism.fandom.com/wiki/Alexander_Chislenko> and
> Marvin <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Minsky>,  (I know many of
> you here knew these guys) is the hardest part of getting old.
>
> Minsky was suspended.  I had a tiny bit to do with that happening.  At
almost 82, I might be the oldest on the list.

Keith

PS.  On the other hand, being revived in the future might not be a bed of
roses.  Things are changing so fast that it is disorienting to me and I
have been on top of the AI business since the early 80s.

>
>
>
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sun Apr 21 00:23:31 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2024 17:23:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [Extropolis] Re: LLAMA3
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2Fq_kemFTCEk015kvTZgMnw7smE2=brZAki2bp78nEdw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv2zj23gW3gbZD4YT0ggzb+NqBsf979GkCouuLL7J8WEfA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2Fq_kemFTCEk015kvTZgMnw7smE2=brZAki2bp78nEdw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6JO8B+MfsJjuCea5qTyy=dr90pZamd4GHsVzt1-3k-Sw@mail.gmail.com>

Best wishes,

Keith


---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com>
Date: Sat, Apr 20, 2024 at 4:27?PM
Subject: [Extropolis] Re: LLAMA3
To: <extropolis at googlegroups.com>, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List
<everything-list at googlegroups.com>



On Sat, Apr 20, 2024 at 7:11?PM Brent Meeker <meekerbrent at gmail.com> wrote:

> > How about the war in Ukraine, Russian hacking, global warming,  Chinese threats in the Taiwan strait and South China sea, and U.S. infrastructure decay?


If the singularity happens in the next two or three years, which
doesn't sound nearly as ridiculous as it would have 18 months ago,
then every one of those things is of utterly trivial importance.

John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis
m5x



> Meta (a.k.a. Facebook) released LLAMA3 just a few days ago, and it's amazing for three reasons:
> 1) It's tiny, it only has 70 billion parameters, GPT4 is about 1.8 trillion parameters.
> 2) Despite its small size on AI benchmarks it's performance is just a smidgen below that of GPT4.
> 3) It is open source.
>
> Meta says it's performance would be even better if they trained it for longer but they stopped early because the company's computational resources are large but not infinite so they decided that compute time could be better spent training a 400 billion parameter version of LLAMA3, which they say they'll release sometime in the next couple of months, and in developing LLAMA4.
>
> And anybody who still thinks the Singularity is not near really needs to look at the following video. I'll tell you one thing, it sure makes the issues that most Americans believe are the most important and which will probably decide the November election, excessive wokeness, the "invasion" from Mexico, and transsexual bathrooms, seem pretty damn trivial.
>
> LLAMA 3 *BREAKS* the Industry | Government Safety Limits Approaching | Will Groq kill NVIDIA?
>
>
> pdt
>
>
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "extropolis" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Apr 21 01:33:15 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2024 18:33:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [Extropolis] Re: LLAMA3
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB6JO8B+MfsJjuCea5qTyy=dr90pZamd4GHsVzt1-3k-Sw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv2zj23gW3gbZD4YT0ggzb+NqBsf979GkCouuLL7J8WEfA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2Fq_kemFTCEk015kvTZgMnw7smE2=brZAki2bp78nEdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB6JO8B+MfsJjuCea5qTyy=dr90pZamd4GHsVzt1-3k-Sw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTd3SOJ09AHzst_azDs=XeLoCY9JGjAE2k+fYVRq3RiUw@mail.gmail.com>

Yeah, no.  This is not even remotely the unlimited exponential self
improvement that defines the Singularity.

For those who aren't AI specialists, mere improvement on the numbers like
this has little to no direct impact.  Even a thousand fold - but not
self-directed - improvement overnight would, by itself, fall far short of
triggering an imminent Singularity.

Though I will grant that this will significantly directly affect more
people over the next couple years than transsexuals bathrooms.

On Sat, Apr 20, 2024, 5:25?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Best wishes,
>
> Keith
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com>
> Date: Sat, Apr 20, 2024 at 4:27?PM
> Subject: [Extropolis] Re: LLAMA3
> To: <extropolis at googlegroups.com>, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List
> <everything-list at googlegroups.com>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 20, 2024 at 7:11?PM Brent Meeker <meekerbrent at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > > How about the war in Ukraine, Russian hacking, global warming,
> Chinese threats in the Taiwan strait and South China sea, and U.S.
> infrastructure decay?
>
>
> If the singularity happens in the next two or three years, which
> doesn't sound nearly as ridiculous as it would have 18 months ago,
> then every one of those things is of utterly trivial importance.
>
> John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis
> m5x
>
>
>
> > Meta (a.k.a. Facebook) released LLAMA3 just a few days ago, and it's
> amazing for three reasons:
> > 1) It's tiny, it only has 70 billion parameters, GPT4 is about 1.8
> trillion parameters.
> > 2) Despite its small size on AI benchmarks it's performance is just a
> smidgen below that of GPT4.
> > 3) It is open source.
> >
> > Meta says it's performance would be even better if they trained it for
> longer but they stopped early because the company's computational resources
> are large but not infinite so they decided that compute time could be
> better spent training a 400 billion parameter version of LLAMA3, which they
> say they'll release sometime in the next couple of months, and in
> developing LLAMA4.
> >
> > And anybody who still thinks the Singularity is not near really needs to
> look at the following video. I'll tell you one thing, it sure makes the
> issues that most Americans believe are the most important and which will
> probably decide the November election, excessive wokeness, the "invasion"
> from Mexico, and transsexual bathrooms, seem pretty damn trivial.
> >
> > LLAMA 3 *BREAKS* the Industry | Government Safety Limits Approaching |
> Will Groq kill NVIDIA?
> >
> >
> > pdt
> >
> >
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
>
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv2Fq_kemFTCEk015kvTZgMnw7smE2%3DbrZAki2bp78nEdw%40mail.gmail.com
> .
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Sun Apr 21 02:47:46 2024
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2024 20:47:46 -0600
Subject: [ExI] [TIQ] RIP Daniel Dennett
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB5b5=X6Qe1yrzvZb6s61dqu5+6GeSLWjWL9XjA1bx-0Kw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJvaNPnuty2CJcuwdL5O-86s1To5_kXQRwjcJ8f+Xt74MGa_KA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypU=B05=eyTWcBQbYAOBJ4P3-G3HbWS9gYRtbaDSZ-rEDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvaNPkPTOo-kH4maGUu4Y5fx9a64nc8i-h4=w=NDj2BH127uQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvaNPnT1-3ysm0N0bn_eT=YwwoX_tOxuzE70DEX57Ra-dQckg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvaNPkmYk9K9eeXqwXSU8uDv-YQhCP_t4oDi9r+5uFUNuANew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-ons0Vx54C+2pdWyeW+GuEHYMOeOv5MxXtOmiGvks3z0a5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB5b5=X6Qe1yrzvZb6s61dqu5+6GeSLWjWL9XjA1bx-0Kw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onu00rZ=h=Tb_TE-11zn9q6q96wQtHa-YQ+-kOZ_LcfqAQ@mail.gmail.com>

Keith,
That is great that Minskey was preserved.  I didn't know that, and so great
you helped with that.

As far as catching up to modern technology after resurrection, I
addressed this in my 1229 story
<https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ybLgIbOSDu9-ye1wAu9B5RnCBuSVcIihtXrhtVWZajo/edit>
.

It predicts that people will be resurrected into a simulated reality that
would be identical to the day after they died, and they will be gradually
introduced into the future at their own chosen pace, to go as slow or fast
as they want.  They could even stay at any level of progress they'd desire,
in various types of simulated realities or locations.  Ie, the Amish will
be able to stay at any level they desire.

Oh, and as far as being able to restore people not preserved, that is
definitely questionable, especially for the foreseeable future.  But all I
know is that I, nor do I think anyone else will ever give up till all
memories (i.e. a perfect history of the entire earth, including everyone in
it, at a resolution required to restore everyone and their memories) are
restored.  And how could anyone doubt the power of eternally
approaching omnipotent and omniscient Gods.

Brent





On Sat, Apr 20, 2024 at 12:01?PM Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> On Sat, Apr 20, 2024 at 2:46?AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> snip
>>
>> I can't wait till we get the resurrection technology
>> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ybLgIbOSDu9-ye1wAu9B5RnCBuSVcIihtXrhtVWZajo/edit>
>> to bring these guys back.  And I wish AI would hurry and find a cure for
>> aging, so we could quit losing the great ones like these.
>>
>
> We have cryonics.  I seriously doubt on information theoretic grounds that
> we will get back anyone who has not been cryonically suspended.
>
>>
>> Have you guys seen Kurzweil these days?  He is really not looking good
>> lately.  I fear I'm going to see him in the headlines some day.  That will
>> hurt more than anyone.  Is there any way we could all throw him a party
>> before he goes or something?
>>
>> Kurtzweil is signed up with Alcor, same as me, Damien Broderick, Eric
> Drexler, Ralph Merkel, a long list of people we know, but not enough of
> them.  Perhaps we need to start a list of people we want to be signed up.
> It really hurt when Vernor Vinge died.
>
>
>> Losing your good friends and heroes, especially the personal ones for me
>> like Sasha <https://transhumanism.fandom.com/wiki/Alexander_Chislenko> and
>> Marvin <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Minsky>,  (I know many of
>> you here knew these guys) is the hardest part of getting old.
>>
>> Minsky was suspended.  I had a tiny bit to do with that happening.  At
> almost 82, I might be the oldest on the list.
>
> Keith
>
> PS.  On the other hand, being revived in the future might not be a bed of
> roses.  Things are changing so fast that it is disorienting to me and I
> have been on top of the AI business since the early 80s.
>
>>
>>
>>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Apr 23 10:02:07 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2024 11:02:07 +0100
Subject: [ExI] When red-hot isn't enough - use magenta!
Message-ID: <CAL_armj5WnrPaKzeFcfcNnqSC6Gz55yjqbV+xXhzmUQ7Uyc9Ww@mail.gmail.com>

When red-hot isn't enough: New government heat risk tool sets magenta
as most dangerous level.
by Seth Borenstein        April 23, 2024

<https://phys.org/news/2024-04-red-hot-isnt-tool-magenta.html>

Quotes:
Forget about red hot. A new color-coded heat warning system relies on
magenta to alert Americans to the most dangerous conditions they may
see this summer.

The National Weather Service and the Centers for Disease Control and
Prevention on Monday?Earth Day?presented a new online heat risk system
that combines meteorological and medical risk factors with a seven-day
forecast that's simplified and color-coded for a warming world of
worsening heat waves.

Both the weather service and CDC will put versions of the tool on
their websites. Enter a ZIP code on the CDC dashboard to get more
focus on health risks and air quality and zoom in on the weather
service map online for more detailed forecasts and explanations.
Both versions include heat risk for the next seven days and there is a
Spanish edition.

The CDC site is https://www.cdc.gov/heatrisk and the weather service
version is https://www.wpc.ncep.noaa.gov/heatrisk/
-------------------

In the UK, now we just want the rain to stop.
It has been a really wet winter, (though warmer than usual).

BillK


From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Apr 24 14:09:35 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2024 15:09:35 +0100
Subject: [ExI] AI-controlled fighter planes & race cars
Message-ID: <CAL_armjZZ3KGP8+6YB4k8u0UY4EGkTg1V4-3j4f-Gv=-vO-CPA@mail.gmail.com>

The AI fighter pilot performed exactly as expected.
By Kristin Houser     April 22, 2024
<https://www.freethink.com/robots-ai/ai-fighter-pilot>
Quote:
For the first time, an AI fighter pilot faced off against a human
pilot in a ?dogfight? using actual jets in the air ? a huge milestone
in autonomous flight and military automation.
-------------

The first autonomous car race will be streamed live and free April 27
By Mike Hanlon    April 24, 2024
<https://newatlas.com/automotive/autonomous-car-race-streamed-live-free/>
Quote:
Eight teams will use identical Dallara Super Formula SF23 cars with
the same autonomous technology stack, so like with any single marque
race series, it's entirely down to the driver. This is a Grand Prix
for software engineers. Each team can only utilize its coding skills,
AI algorithms, and machine learning software expertise to teach the
cars how to drive ... fast.
------------------

Still in the testing phase, but if AI can control F16s and race cars
at the human level (or better) then the Singularity must really be
near!

BillK


From nuala.t at gmail.com  Wed Apr 24 14:20:49 2024
From: nuala.t at gmail.com (Nuala Thomson)
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2024 00:20:49 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Societal evolution
Message-ID: <CAEc3cquUmdjnK5Zwy4QWmKW-qUsx1yFJ0o0OSU-_Bf5X7NRB8g@mail.gmail.com>

Please forgive me, this is the first thread I've ever started and it's
stemming from the last 2 days of training and alcohol.

I have started a new job, in a new location, in a new large company and
part of the induction and training is 'Cultural Awareness' as we operate on
the native people's land, alongside the indigenous people.
This is a part of Australia I have worked in previously (twice) and
absolutely loved the area and the indigenous, but only in the last 2 days
really learnt an in-depth history of the area.
To summarise; white people fucked this place up.
The messages I sent my mum go something like this; "... It sort of hit me
how society has evolved in literally my life. The generational trauma has
literally only just begun because these people were children at the start
of it ..."

The Aboriginal people here only got land rights in the last 15-20 years.
One of my favourite towns is only 50 years old.
The land was stolen and the indigenous population raped and massacred in my
childhood.
When I was a child I wanted to be a fighter pilot. Women weren't allowed to
be fighter pilots until I was 20-something.
I have other memories that probably put me ahead of my era but that's not
the point.

We all know every 10 years technology makes a leap.
I theorise society does the same, and I would like confirmation or
contradiction.
I believe so solely on what I've learnt of this area of my country and what
has happened in my lifetime. Then I've put the technological advancements
alongside it, the safety upgrades in the workplace alongside it, the
societal expectations alongside it, the fashion choices alongside it.
I am of the thought that society evolves at the same rate as technology,
alongside it.

I might be late to the party, but I'm ok with that so long as I got there.

Nuala.
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Apr 24 14:25:30 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2024 07:25:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] AI-controlled fighter planes & race cars
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjZZ3KGP8+6YB4k8u0UY4EGkTg1V4-3j4f-Gv=-vO-CPA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjZZ3KGP8+6YB4k8u0UY4EGkTg1V4-3j4f-Gv=-vO-CPA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009901da9653$43415ce0$c9c416a0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat
Sent: Wednesday, 24 April, 2024 7:10 AM
To: Extropy Chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: BillK <pharos at gmail.com>
Subject: [ExI] AI-controlled fighter planes & race cars

The AI fighter pilot performed exactly as expected.
By Kristin Houser     April 22, 2024
<https://www.freethink.com/robots-ai/ai-fighter-pilot>
Quote:
For the first time, an AI fighter pilot faced off against a human pilot in a ?dogfight? using actual jets in the air ? a huge milestone in autonomous flight and military automation.
-------------

The first autonomous car race will be streamed live and free April 27
By Mike Hanlon    April 24, 2024
<https://newatlas.com/automotive/autonomous-car-race-streamed-live-free/>
Quote:
Eight teams will use identical Dallara Super Formula SF23 cars with the same autonomous technology stack, so like with any single marque race series, it's entirely down to the driver. This is a Grand Prix for software engineers. Each team can only utilize its coding skills, AI algorithms, and machine learning software expertise to teach the cars how to drive ... fast.
------------------

>...Still in the testing phase, but if AI can control F16s and race cars at the human level (or better) then the Singularity must really be near!

BillK

_______________________________________________



Oh this is soooo cool, thx BillK!

This to me has so many possibilities for new engineering challenges.  The robot cars can be scaled down in size, enough to make the cars affordable for private racing teams.  Because of motorcycles and boats, we already have super high performance light weight compact low cost factory-produced engines, such as the ones on the Mercury 225 outboard motor and the Hayabusa 1.3 liter bike engine.  We can use those babies to produce racecars with a mass of perhaps 500 kg with the highest point a meter or perhaps even less, off the track.  We are freed from having to build around a human occupant which doesn't scale down.  We can also take bigger risks with the robot cars.  We could even create a factory which produces standard Hayabusa-driven racing frames, perhaps mass produce them for 40k or less.  You add your computer and software, and off to the races.  Ordinary university race teams could enter that, privateers, oh this could be big.

spike



From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Apr 24 14:28:37 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2024 07:28:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Societal evolution
In-Reply-To: <CAEc3cquUmdjnK5Zwy4QWmKW-qUsx1yFJ0o0OSU-_Bf5X7NRB8g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEc3cquUmdjnK5Zwy4QWmKW-qUsx1yFJ0o0OSU-_Bf5X7NRB8g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009a01da9653$b2f1e460$18d5ad20$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Nuala Thomson via extropy-chat
Sent: Wednesday, 24 April, 2024 7:21 AM
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Cc: Nuala Thomson <nuala.t at gmail.com>
Subject: [ExI] Societal evolution

 

>?Please forgive me, this is the first thread I've ever started and it's stemming from the last 2 days of training and alcohol?.

 

No need for forgiveness, training and alcohol are not sins.

 

 

>?I might be late to the party, but I'm ok with that so long as I got there.

 

Nuala.

 

 

Welcome to the party, Nuala!

 

spike

 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 24 17:03:06 2024
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2024 12:03:06 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Societal evolution
In-Reply-To: <CAEc3cquUmdjnK5Zwy4QWmKW-qUsx1yFJ0o0OSU-_Bf5X7NRB8g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEc3cquUmdjnK5Zwy4QWmKW-qUsx1yFJ0o0OSU-_Bf5X7NRB8g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZSMcNHEYwqiKb1nrgBxinEAk1LEiJ+8D9xCU0rNtTqNQ@mail.gmail.com>

I am of the thought that society evolves at the same rate as technology,
alongside it.
I might be late to the party, but I'm ok with that so long as I got
there.Nuala.

What makes you think society evolves?  Tech does, of course.  Morals change
but mostly back and forth rather than progressing (whatever that word
means).

Britain has a long history of terrible abuse of people in countries they
tried to take into their empire.  America has not been much better towards
INdigenous peoples.

'Take over the town. Kill all males  and possibly females (raped first, of
course). '  This has been the case since long before Odysseus was a "raider
of villages".'

bill  w

On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 9:22?AM Nuala Thomson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Please forgive me, this is the first thread I've ever started and it's
> stemming from the last 2 days of training and alcohol.
>
> I have started a new job, in a new location, in a new large company and
> part of the induction and training is 'Cultural Awareness' as we operate on
> the native people's land, alongside the indigenous people.
> This is a part of Australia I have worked in previously (twice) and
> absolutely loved the area and the indigenous, but only in the last 2 days
> really learnt an in-depth history of the area.
> To summarise; white people fucked this place up.
> The messages I sent my mum go something like this; "... It sort of hit me
> how society has evolved in literally my life. The generational trauma has
> literally only just begun because these people were children at the start
> of it ..."
>
> The Aboriginal people here only got land rights in the last 15-20 years.
> One of my favourite towns is only 50 years old.
> The land was stolen and the indigenous population raped and massacred in
> my childhood.
> When I was a child I wanted to be a fighter pilot. Women weren't allowed
> to be fighter pilots until I was 20-something.
> I have other memories that probably put me ahead of my era but that's not
> the point.
>
> We all know every 10 years technology makes a leap.
> I theorise society does the same, and I would like confirmation or
> contradiction.
> I believe so solely on what I've learnt of this area of my country and
> what has happened in my lifetime. Then I've put the technological
> advancements alongside it, the safety upgrades in the workplace alongside
> it, the societal expectations alongside it, the fashion choices alongside
> it.
> I am of the thought that society evolves at the same rate as technology,
> alongside it.
>
> I might be late to the party, but I'm ok with that so long as I got there.
>
> Nuala.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 24 17:17:49 2024
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2024 13:17:49 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Societal evolution
In-Reply-To: <CAEc3cquUmdjnK5Zwy4QWmKW-qUsx1yFJ0o0OSU-_Bf5X7NRB8g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEc3cquUmdjnK5Zwy4QWmKW-qUsx1yFJ0o0OSU-_Bf5X7NRB8g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbJURGgn6Pka4x7dtD_kBHzXtHf7tx_8L92PL1GLnN_JVA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2024, 10:22 AM Nuala Thomson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> To summarise; white people fucked this place up.
>
> The Aboriginal people here only got land rights in the last 15-20 years.
>

Do you think that might be cultural heritage of indigenous people hadn't
historically experienced scarcity of land to ever conceive of ownership
until Europeans showed up and claimed it?

This is another anecdote of EP.
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From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Apr 24 18:59:29 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2024 19:59:29 +0100
Subject: [ExI] AI-controlled fighter planes & race cars
In-Reply-To: <009901da9653$43415ce0$c9c416a0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armjZZ3KGP8+6YB4k8u0UY4EGkTg1V4-3j4f-Gv=-vO-CPA@mail.gmail.com>
 <009901da9653$43415ce0$c9c416a0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armiP3YRvdr5q8e_crOOnCoakmisd63xFhewc9JLTLA9csQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 24 Apr 2024 at 15:25, <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
> Oh this is soooo cool, thx BillK!
>
> This to me has so many possibilities for new engineering challenges.  The robot cars can be scaled down in size, enough to make the cars affordable for private racing teams.  Because of motorcycles and boats, we already have super high performance light weight compact low cost factory-produced engines, such as the ones on the Mercury 225 outboard motor and the Hayabusa 1.3 liter bike engine.  We can use those babies to produce racecars with a mass of perhaps 500 kg with the highest point a meter or perhaps even less, off the track.  We are freed from having to build around a human occupant which doesn't scale down.  We can also take bigger risks with the robot cars.  We could even create a factory which produces standard Hayabusa-driven racing frames, perhaps mass produce them for 40k or less.  You add your computer and software, and off to the races.  Ordinary university race teams could enter that, privateers, oh this could be big.
>
> spike
>--------------------------------------------


Maybe later,  :)     At present the cars have to be identical because
they are concentrating on training the AI drivers. Once they achieve
superhuman AI drivers that can be bought as an AI package, then
attention will turn to vehicle development.
Car chases in films will be really impressive!


BillK


From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Apr 25 14:27:25 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2024 15:27:25 +0100
Subject: [ExI] How to chat to your uploaded copy
Message-ID: <CAL_armjjC9RMqNow1PcnZDRtMgpRfxejf-kpQxVuU9Lben8s=Q@mail.gmail.com>

Me, myself, and (A)I: a Q&A with my AI avatar
Reid Hoffman
Entrepreneur. Product and Business Strategist. Investor. Podcaster. Author.
Published Apr 24, 2024

<https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/me-myself-ai-qa-my-avatar-reid-hoffman-71unf/>

Quotes:
So, a bit on how this was built: without getting too in the weeds, the
video avatar is generated by Hour One. The voice cloning is done by
11ElevenLabs.  And the persona?as in, the way Reid AI formulates
responses?is generated from a custom chatbot built on GPT-4 that draws
from my books, speeches, articles, and podcasts that I?ve produced
over the last 20 years (so even some of the ideas my AI avatar shares
may be referencing older statements and thinking).

I?ve found the whole experience developing and experimenting with my
AI avatar interesting and thought-provoking.
A powerful technology has arrived. It?s important to be aware and
thoughtful as we go into?and work to shape?the future.
------------------

Also, news report at:
<https://www.geekwire.com/2024/in-mind-bending-chat-with-deepfake-digital-twin-reid-hoffman-discusses-microsofts-big-ai-hire/>
----------------------

Another step in creating online copies of people.

BillK


From avant at sollegro.com  Thu Apr 25 16:15:19 2024
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2024 09:15:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Societal evolution
In-Reply-To: <CAEc3cquUmdjnK5Zwy4QWmKW-qUsx1yFJ0o0OSU-_Bf5X7NRB8g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEc3cquUmdjnK5Zwy4QWmKW-qUsx1yFJ0o0OSU-_Bf5X7NRB8g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e4de17de49fe355407379b9015688523@sollegro.com>

On 2024-04-24 07:20, Nuala Thomson via extropy-chat wrote:

> We all know every 10 years technology makes a leap.
> I theorise society does the same, and I would like confirmation or
> contradiction.
> I believe so solely on what I've learnt of this area of my country and
> what has happened in my lifetime. Then I've put the technological
> advancements alongside it, the safety upgrades in the workplace
> alongside it, the societal expectations alongside it, the fashion
> choices alongside it.
> I am of the thought that society evolves at the same rate as
> technology, alongside it.

I tend to agree with you, Nuala. Technology is affecting human evolution 
both biologically and societally.  As a teacher, I can see how 
technology is starting to shape our society especially with regard to 
our youth. Adolescents these days are much more reclusive and socially 
awkward than in my youth, with texting, posting to Instagram, and 
playing Fortnite largely replacing hanging out and going to the mall as 
the kid's notion of socializing.

Kids these days seem to be much more socially awkward than they used to 
be. Even when kids meet up in real space, much of their social 
interaction involves showing one another videos and other social media 
on their phones. Many kids lack the ability to verbally tell one another 
coherent stories, jokes, or otherwise entertain one another without 
technology being involved. Because smart phones are designed to attract 
and keep the attention of their users through triggering dopamine 
release, thereby addicting their users to constant stimulation and 
instant gratification, kids find it difficult to set and achieve 
meaningful goals especially those that take sustained effort over longer 
periods of time.

I would go so far as to hypothesize that smart phones are causally 
contributing to the near epidemic rise of both Autism and ADHD in 
school-age children. Certainly more than any vaccines.

Another way that technology is shaping culture and society is through 
the dating and mating habits of young adults. Dating sites and apps like 
Tinder have completely changed how romantic partners find each other. 
For one thing it has globalized the gene pool and thereby enabled women 
to become extraordinarily specific and picky about their mate choice 
since they literally have the whole of the Internet to choose from. This 
allows a relatively small percentage of males that are perceived by 
women as being high-value to monopolize the dating pool in ways that 
were not possible 30 years ago.

While social or cultural evolution is much faster than biological 
evolution because memes can change and spread quicker than genes, I can 
see how technology is starting to shape the biology of our species also. 
One example would be how vision-correction technology like spectacles 
and contact lenses has likely caused the average uncorrected visual 
acuity of our species to decline compared to our ancestors.

In any case, I believe you could find numerous other examples of how 
technology has caused society to evolve.

Stuart LaForge

From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Apr 25 19:13:56 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2024 12:13:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] How to chat to your uploaded copy
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjjC9RMqNow1PcnZDRtMgpRfxejf-kpQxVuU9Lben8s=Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjjC9RMqNow1PcnZDRtMgpRfxejf-kpQxVuU9Lben8s=Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009601da9744$b8b179a0$2a146ce0$@rainier66.com>


...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat
Subject: [ExI] How to chat to your uploaded copy

Me, myself, and (A)I: a Q&A with my AI avatar Reid Hoffman Entrepreneur. Product and Business Strategist. Investor. Podcaster. Author.
Published Apr 24, 2024

<https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/me-myself-ai-qa-my-avatar-reid-hoffman-71unf/>
...>
----------------------

Another step in creating online copies of people.

BillK

_______________________________________________


BillK, this is outrageously cool, and is the answer to a question I have long wanted: an AI companion for the elderly.  This tech didn't arrive in time for my mother, but it did get here in time for my father in law, who is now 85.  He is still living on his own, for now.  But loneliness is a big challenge, one of his biggest.  This video demonstrates the technology is here to make a digital companion.

Less than 2 days to the big robot-car race!

spike



From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Apr 25 19:25:14 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2024 12:25:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Societal evolution
In-Reply-To: <e4de17de49fe355407379b9015688523@sollegro.com>
References: <CAEc3cquUmdjnK5Zwy4QWmKW-qUsx1yFJ0o0OSU-_Bf5X7NRB8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <e4de17de49fe355407379b9015688523@sollegro.com>
Message-ID: <009a01da9746$4cc9f620$e65de260$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] Societal evolution

On 2024-04-24 07:20, Nuala Thomson via extropy-chat wrote:

> We all know every 10 years technology makes a leap.
> I theorise society does the same, and I would like confirmation or 
> contradiction.... Nuala

Nuala, here's something cool not directly related to your question.  When a
new ExI-chatter comes along, we get a flurry of activity, new questions and
ideas.  We old fellers have been hanging out here for a long time and know
each other well, so there are few new ideas.  So thanks for coming to our
decades-long party and tossing new stuff into the pot.

Regarding your notion: technology leaps come along, but not on any regular
or predictable interval as far as I can tell.  Some of them are foreseeable,
others not.  When the generative pretrained transformer showed up in 2018,
it came outta nowhere.  It surprised most of us, who spend a lotta time
thinking about the future. 

>...I tend to agree with you, Nuala. Technology is affecting human evolution
both biologically and societally.  As a teacher, I can see how technology is
starting to shape our society especially with regard to our youth.
Adolescents these days are much more reclusive and socially awkward than in
my youth, with texting, posting to Instagram, and playing Fortnite largely
replacing hanging out and going to the mall as the kid's notion of
socializing...Kids these days seem to be much more socially awkward than
they used to be. ...Stuart LaForge
_______________________________________________


Stuart, thanks for that.  This is an idea that needs way more study: whether
our tech toys are somehow contributing to autism and ADHD.  I am compelled
to agree, from what I observe: a lot of teenagers carrying themselves in
ways that make it difficult for other generations to interact with them.
They do fine (or seem to) in interacting with each other.  But... standard
social behavior is definitely changing.

spike


From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Apr 25 20:22:38 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2024 21:22:38 +0100
Subject: [ExI] See the Screw Bike - it's not what you're thinking!
Message-ID: <CAL_armgXm9wdS_yLHJmg9rirgL7xnsUkErwe4mxnFLiQSHjc-Q@mail.gmail.com>

British YouTuber makes world?s first mecanum-wheeled e-bike
Called the Screw Bike, it isn?t the best-looking electrical e-bike out
there, but its unique abilities certainly compensates for that.
Christopher McFadden     Published: Apr 22, 2024

<https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/worlds-first-mecanum-wheeled-bike>

Quotes:
British YouTuber James Bruton has created what might be the world?s
first driveable, self-balancing, omnidirectional, mecanum-wheeled
electrical bike. Made from a mix of off-the-shelf and 3D-printed
parts, the bike is certainly unique.

Building on his success with an earlier prototype self-balancing
conventional bicycle, the new vehicle must be seen in action to be
believed. The mecanum-wheeled bike balances much like a Segway but can
also move in any direction thanks to its novel wheel configuration.
------------------------

The video also explains how he built it.

BillK


From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Apr 25 20:33:17 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2024 13:33:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] See the Screw Bike - it's not what you're thinking!
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgXm9wdS_yLHJmg9rirgL7xnsUkErwe4mxnFLiQSHjc-Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgXm9wdS_yLHJmg9rirgL7xnsUkErwe4mxnFLiQSHjc-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00e601da974f$ce98c560$6bca5020$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat
Subject: [ExI] See the Screw Bike - it's not what you're thinking!

British YouTuber makes world?s first mecanum-wheeled e-bike Called the Screw Bike, it isn?t the best-looking electrical e-bike out there, but its unique abilities certainly compensates for that.
Christopher McFadden     Published: Apr 22, 2024

<https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/worlds-first-mecanum-wheeled-bike>
...
------------------------

>...The video also explains how he built it.

BillK

_______________________________________________



BillK, there was plenty of compensating coolness to this rig, to make up for the initial disappointment in finding out it isn't what it sounds like.

I can easily imagine innovative races and competitions, such as screw-bike basketball for instance, or a kind of screw polo.  It would need to have a different name, to avoid being sued by disappointed ticket holders when they get to the arena to find it is not what they expected.

But just imagine the possibilities, the races, the jousting, oh my.  Hilarity would ensue.

spike



From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Apr 26 00:34:11 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2024 01:34:11 +0100
Subject: [ExI] AI-controlled fighter planes & race cars
In-Reply-To: <009901da9653$43415ce0$c9c416a0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armjZZ3KGP8+6YB4k8u0UY4EGkTg1V4-3j4f-Gv=-vO-CPA@mail.gmail.com>
 <009901da9653$43415ce0$c9c416a0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armje21By8KoN30-vwPGQC3Q-cbqm3Qs9pVPr=WJaOg25dA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 24 Apr 2024 at 15:25, <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
> Oh this is soooo cool, thx BillK!
>
> This to me has so many possibilities for new engineering challenges.  The robot cars can be scaled down in size, enough to make the cars affordable for private racing teams.  Because of motorcycles and boats, we already have super high performance light weight compact low cost factory-produced engines, such as the ones on the Mercury 225 outboard motor and the Hayabusa 1.3 liter bike engine.  We can use those babies to produce racecars with a mass of perhaps 500 kg with the highest point a meter or perhaps even less, off the track.  We are freed from having to build around a human occupant which doesn't scale down.  We can also take bigger risks with the robot cars.  We could even create a factory which produces standard Hayabusa-driven racing frames, perhaps mass produce them for 40k or less.  You add your computer and software, and off to the races.  Ordinary university race teams could enter that, privateers, oh this could be big.
>
> spike
>---------------------------------


On 27 April, the live streaming is from 16.00(GST) to 23:00 (GST).
That is Gulf Standard Time in Abu Dhabi.

PDT (Pacific Daylight Time) is 11 hours behind Gulf Standard Time.
So I think that means 05.00 to 12.00 for you.

You might be able to find the schedule for the race times, so you can
skip the boring bits!  :)

BillK


From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Apr 26 04:27:48 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2024 21:27:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] AI-controlled fighter planes & race cars
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armje21By8KoN30-vwPGQC3Q-cbqm3Qs9pVPr=WJaOg25dA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjZZ3KGP8+6YB4k8u0UY4EGkTg1V4-3j4f-Gv=-vO-CPA@mail.gmail.com>
 <009901da9653$43415ce0$c9c416a0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armje21By8KoN30-vwPGQC3Q-cbqm3Qs9pVPr=WJaOg25dA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00db01da9792$1857af30$49070d90$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
BillK via extropy-chat
Sent: Thursday, 25 April, 2024 5:34 PM
To: Extropy Chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: BillK <pharos at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] AI-controlled fighter planes & race cars

On Wed, 24 Apr 2024 at 15:25, <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
> Oh this is soooo cool, thx BillK!
>
> This to me has so many possibilities for new engineering challenges.  The
robot cars can be scaled down in size, enough to make the cars affordable
for private racing teams.  Because of motorcycles and boats, we already have
super high performance light weight compact low cost factory-produced
engines, such as the ones on the Mercury 225 outboard motor and the Hayabusa
1.3 liter bike engine.  We can use those babies to produce racecars with a
mass of perhaps 500 kg with the highest point a meter or perhaps even less,
off the track.  We are freed from having to build around a human occupant
which doesn't scale down.  We can also take bigger risks with the robot
cars.  We could even create a factory which produces standard
Hayabusa-driven racing frames, perhaps mass produce them for 40k or less.
You add your computer and software, and off to the races.  Ordinary
university race teams could enter that, privateers, oh this could be big.
>
> spike
>---------------------------------


>...On 27 April, the live streaming is from 16.00(GST) to 23:00 (GST).
That is Gulf Standard Time in Abu Dhabi.

PDT (Pacific Daylight Time) is 11 hours behind Gulf Standard Time.
So I think that means 05.00 to 12.00 for you.

You might be able to find the schedule for the race times, so you can skip
the boring bits!  :)

BillK

_______________________________________________



Thanks!  I am usually up and about by that time of day, 0500.  If not, it
will be soon after.  For those on the USA east coast, the fun begins at a
leisurely 0800.

BillK, I went down to the first DARPA Challenge, the robot cars thru the
desert in 2004.  That first year was fun for a short while: the race was a
bust.  Nearly all the cars crashed or failed to proceed after a short time.
None of the cars finished and none qualified for the million bucks by
finishing the 150 mile course in five hours.  

At that time, 20 yrs ago, I really got to thinking about all the
possibilities.  Somebody had put together a robotic motorcycle, which makes
a lotta sense for a desert course like the first DARPA Grand Challenge.  I
realized that robot motorcycle racing would bring in a lotta new fans to the
sport, and has some big advantages: racing motorcycles already exist and
have economies of scale, unlike cars.  A car capable of keeping up with the
full-on racers cost a million bucks or more (the Lamborghinis and Maseratis
and such as that) but a racing bike that can be had for less than 25k is
only a second or two per lap slower than the full racing bike.

Furthermore... the robot race bike is interesting visually, and it could
theoretically go faster than a humanned bike, for both the weight advantage
and the reduced drag.

In any case... this Saturday aughta be fun.

spike


From postmowoods at gmail.com  Fri Apr 26 15:02:19 2024
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2024 09:02:19 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Legal euthanasia for mental problems increasing worldwide
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armideZcaoMHLUPGr1t5aAhrwVb7nRB9gAbBvE+FcbL0RAA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armideZcaoMHLUPGr1t5aAhrwVb7nRB9gAbBvE+FcbL0RAA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACBESnCO5pQPHrLtwTdANr69f4KoDYwrSj55xmnC0nNL1pZ0Fg@mail.gmail.com>

The remote Pacific island of Tikopia, as described in Jared Diamond's
book "Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed" (2005),
provides a fascinating case study of a society that successfully
managed its limited resources and survived for thousands of years. One
of the most striking practices employed by the Tikopians was a form of
population control called "virtual suicide," where individuals would
voluntarily paddle out to sea, never to return, when the island's
population grew too large to be sustainable.

In Chapter 9 of "Collapse," titled "Opposite Paths to Success,"
Diamond examines the history of Tikopia and contrasts it with the
collapse of the nearby Mangareva Islands. He explains that Tikopia, a
small 1.8 square mile island, sustained a stable population of around
1,200 people for millennia. To maintain this delicate balance, the
Tikopians developed a complex system of resource management,
sustainable agriculture, and population control.

When the island's chiefs determined that the population had grown too
large, they would call for volunteers to "take a canoe trip." These
brave individuals would paddle out into the vast Pacific Ocean,
sacrificing their lives for the greater good of their community. This
practice, along with other measures like celibacy, delayed marriage,
and infanticide, allowed the Tikopians to keep their population in
check and avoid overexploiting their limited resources.

While such extreme practices may seem unethical or inhumane by modern
standards, Diamond argues that they were a necessary adaptation to the
harsh realities of life on a small, isolated island. The Tikopians'
willingness to make these difficult choices, he suggests, was a key
factor in their long-term success and survival.

Perhaps we can think of these people in Denmark and other countries as
engaging in a similar kind of pro-societal sacrifice as the Tikopians.
Does that make it ethically easier to process? Or are the actions of
the Tikopians, despite their sustained living on an island with VERY
limited resources, just too draconian even for this audience?

-Kelly (with a little help from Claude in getting some of the details right)

On Thu, Apr 18, 2024 at 4:35?AM BillK via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Extending euthanasia to get rid of problems or difficult cases sounds
> very dubious to me.


From postmowoods at gmail.com  Fri Apr 26 15:05:22 2024
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2024 09:05:22 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Future of Humanity Institute at Oxford University has
 closed down
In-Reply-To: <ca522827-206c-efdc-5b4c-870c8843f81c@swisscows.email>
References: <CAL_armg-ss3BYZpt_vPSnshf9faLBjfBkE+9dTK_m=DhK72hMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ca522827-206c-efdc-5b4c-870c8843f81c@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <CACBESnD=OwsWtrGZA27Zk4V6YxW2edz1zAqcG81idpLV-y4R4A@mail.gmail.com>

This is absolutely terrible news in my opinion. We need this sort of
thinking more and more right now. To have less of this line of thought
going forward is terrifying. They were always a good place for
documentary filmmakers to get pushed in a good direction it seemed.

-Kelly

On Thu, Apr 18, 2024 at 1:08?PM efc--- via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Interesting. I think Bostr?m has gotten quite a lot of exposure recently,
> but apparently not enough to keep the money flowing.
>
> I wonder if he will just recede back into the philosophy department or if
> he'll start a new organization with new backers?
>
> On Thu, 18 Apr 2024, BillK via extropy-chat wrote:
>
> > Established in 2005, initially for a 3-year period, the Future of
> > Humanity Institute was a multidisciplinary research group at Oxford
> > University.  It was founded by Prof Nick Bostrom.
> >
> > <https://www.futureofhumanityinstitute.org/>
> >
> > Quote:
> > Over time FHI faced increasing administrative headwinds within the
> > Faculty of Philosophy (the Institute?s organizational home).  Starting
> > in 2020, the Faculty imposed a freeze on fundraising and hiring.  In
> > late 2023, the Faculty of Philosophy decided that the contracts of the
> > remaining FHI staff would not be renewed.  On 16 April 2024, the
> > Institute was closed down.
> > ---------------
> >
> > BillK
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat_______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Apr 26 15:18:17 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2024 08:18:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Legal euthanasia for mental problems increasing worldwide
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnCO5pQPHrLtwTdANr69f4KoDYwrSj55xmnC0nNL1pZ0Fg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armideZcaoMHLUPGr1t5aAhrwVb7nRB9gAbBvE+FcbL0RAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACBESnCO5pQPHrLtwTdANr69f4KoDYwrSj55xmnC0nNL1pZ0Fg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009e01da97ec$f7bd3820$e737a860$@rainier66.com>


...> On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] Legal euthanasia for mental problems increasing worldwide

>...The remote Pacific island of Tikopia, as described in Jared Diamond's book "Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed" (2005), provides a fascinating case study of a society that successfully managed its limited resources and survived for thousands of years. One of the most striking practices employed by the Tikopians was a form of population control called "virtual suicide," where individuals would voluntarily paddle out to sea, never to return, when the island's population grew too large to be sustainable.




Hi Kelly,

There are still indigenous groups living in Mexico such as the Huichols.  They have some limited contact with the Mexican people, but do not speak Spanish.  One group lives on a kind of mesa which can sustain around 600 to 800 humans.  The young sometimes leave and walk to a city somewhere, such as Mexico City.  Things usually go badly for them.  I can easily imagine they treat that as the equivalent of virtual suicide.

spike    




From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Apr 26 19:44:06 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2024 20:44:06 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Legal euthanasia for mental problems increasing worldwide
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnCO5pQPHrLtwTdANr69f4KoDYwrSj55xmnC0nNL1pZ0Fg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armideZcaoMHLUPGr1t5aAhrwVb7nRB9gAbBvE+FcbL0RAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACBESnCO5pQPHrLtwTdANr69f4KoDYwrSj55xmnC0nNL1pZ0Fg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armj4wCh7xMEnb-z-w94u8g=PJCPpKw+7vtTc=Ax1h16GVQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 26 Apr 2024 at 16:06, Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> The remote Pacific island of Tikopia, as described in Jared Diamond's
> book "Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed" (2005),
> provides a fascinating case study of a society that successfully
> managed its limited resources and survived for thousands of years. One
> of the most striking practices employed by the Tikopians was a form of
> population control called "virtual suicide," where individuals would
> voluntarily paddle out to sea, never to return, when the island's
> population grew too large to be sustainable.
>
> In Chapter 9 of "Collapse," titled "Opposite Paths to Success,"
> Diamond examines the history of Tikopia and contrasts it with the
> collapse of the nearby Mangareva Islands. He explains that Tikopia, a
> small 1.8 square mile island, sustained a stable population of around
> 1,200 people for millennia. To maintain this delicate balance, the
> Tikopians developed a complex system of resource management,
> sustainable agriculture, and population control.
>
> When the island's chiefs determined that the population had grown too
> large, they would call for volunteers to "take a canoe trip." These
> brave individuals would paddle out into the vast Pacific Ocean,
> sacrificing their lives for the greater good of their community. This
> practice, along with other measures like celibacy, delayed marriage,
> and infanticide, allowed the Tikopians to keep their population in
> check and avoid overexploiting their limited resources.
>
> While such extreme practices may seem unethical or inhumane by modern
> standards, Diamond argues that they were a necessary adaptation to the
> harsh realities of life on a small, isolated island. The Tikopians'
> willingness to make these difficult choices, he suggests, was a key
> factor in their long-term success and survival.
>
> Perhaps we can think of these people in Denmark and other countries as
> engaging in a similar kind of pro-societal sacrifice as the Tikopians.
> Does that make it ethically easier to process? Or are the actions of
> the Tikopians, despite their sustained living on an island with VERY
> limited resources, just too draconian even for this audience?
>
> -Kelly (with a little help from Claude in getting some of the details
right)
> _______________________________________________

Good to see you using Claude! That's one of the best AIs at present.  :)

However, I think you have to be careful with Jared Diamond's book. Many
people disagree with his stories.
I asked two search LLMs and Claude about the story of young men taking a
cruise to suicide.
They all disagreed. The search engines said there was no evidence to
support this story.
They do agree that the islanders practiced various methods of birth control.
Claude's answer is below. (PS. I also disagree with Diamond's Easter Islands
stories).

BillK

Claude -
Jared Diamond did make this claim about Tikopia in his book "Collapse: How
Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed." However, the accuracy of this
specific claim has been questioned by some anthropologists and researchers
who have studied Tikopia in depth.

The primary source of information on Tikopia comes from the work of
anthropologist Raymond Firth, who conducted extensive fieldwork on the
island in the 1920s and 1930s. While Firth did report on the practice of
population control, including abortion, infanticide, and celibacy, he did
not mention organized suicide voyages sanctioned by chiefs as a systematic
method of population control.

In fact, when questioned about Diamond's claim, Firth reportedly denied
that such a practice existed, stating that he had never heard of such a
thing during his time on Tikopia. Other anthropologists who have studied
the island have also expressed skepticism about Diamond's assertion.

It's possible that Diamond misinterpreted some information or extrapolated
from other practices, such as the dangerous ocean voyages that young men
would sometimes undertake, which did result in many deaths. However, these
voyages were not necessarily undertaken with the explicit intention of
suicide or population control.

While Tikopia undoubtedly had a complex system of population control
involving various cultural practices, the specific claim about organized
suicide voyages sanctioned by chiefs appears to be unsupported by the
primary anthropological sources on Tikopia. It seems to be, at best, an
exaggeration or misinterpretation of Tikopia's actual practices.

As with many historical and anthropological claims, it's important to
carefully examine the primary sources and evidence rather than relying on
secondary accounts or interpretations, which can sometimes distort or
misrepresent the original information.
-----------------------
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From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Apr 26 22:24:11 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2024 23:24:11 +0100
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Philosopher_Nick_Bostrom=E2=80=99s_predictions_o?=
	=?utf-8?q?n_life_in_an_AI_utopia?=
Message-ID: <CAL_armhDOyxG3L4TobE4us6f2reG5fA9=jVT-J9quAm+6Mk6mQ@mail.gmail.com>

Big Think recently spoke with Nick Bostrom about how humans might find
fulfillment in a post-scarcity world.  April 26, 2024

<https://bigthink.com/the-future/nick-bostrom-deep-utopia/>
Quotes:
In his 2024 book Deep Utopia, philosopher Nick Bostrom explores a
potential future where AI eliminates most resource competition and
human conflict.
If technology renders human labor unnecessary and eliminates many of
our daily struggles, it could allow people to spend more time on
fulfilling activities.
Bostrom explores the implications of a post-scarcity world ? and our
ability to adapt to it.

Bostrom put it well: ?Past performance is no guarantee of future
performance. Out of all the possible modes of being and all the
different people with different values we could become, it would be
really surprising if ?remaining exactly the way we are now? would be
the best possibility for how we should spend the next million years.?

The past made us who we are today, and the future will make us into
something new. And, if Bostrom is right, it?ll make us happier.
----------------------

BillK


From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Apr 27 04:41:26 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2024 21:41:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] nasa's solar sail has deployed
Message-ID: <001a01da985d$2a8a7b30$7f9f7190$@rainier66.com>

 

Hey cool!  This is one I have long been waiting for: a solar sail.  NASA
launched a CubeSat with an 80 square meter sail:

 

https://www.sciencealert.com/nasas-advanced-solar-sail-has-successfully-depl
oyed-in-space

 

Information on the control system is hard to find.  If anyone has a link,
specifically about the ACS3 control system, that's what I am looking for.

 

spike

 

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From postmowoods at gmail.com  Sat Apr 27 04:44:24 2024
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2024 22:44:24 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Legal euthanasia for mental problems increasing worldwide
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armj4wCh7xMEnb-z-w94u8g=PJCPpKw+7vtTc=Ax1h16GVQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armideZcaoMHLUPGr1t5aAhrwVb7nRB9gAbBvE+FcbL0RAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACBESnCO5pQPHrLtwTdANr69f4KoDYwrSj55xmnC0nNL1pZ0Fg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armj4wCh7xMEnb-z-w94u8g=PJCPpKw+7vtTc=Ax1h16GVQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACBESnDZiBGyUjbUjPWZQ2iWbX6V-YLBpqhqYxWEyi3j2a6aTw@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you for that clarification. It can only be expected from a book
published in 2004 that some of the stories told would be contradicted
at this point. His books are extremely broad, and it seems that it
would be VERY difficult to touch such broad subject matter without
making some mistakes. To clarify further, were the stories of
infanticide on Tikipia supported by Raymond Firth?

We may have a Claude hallucination one way or another, because Claude
just told me, "To my knowledge, Raymond Firth did not directly comment
on or disagree with Jared Diamond's synopsis of Tikopia, as Firth
passed away in 2002, before the publication of Diamond's book.
However, Diamond's account of Tikopia drew heavily from Firth's
detailed ethnographic work." Unless Diamond said something before
Firth died aside from what he published, I don't see how it's likely
Firth would have said anything about a book published after his
death...

I have included a full conversation I had with Claude at the end of
this email if you're interested in Claude's take.

-Kelly

On Fri, Apr 26, 2024 at 1:46?PM BillK via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> On Fri, 26 Apr 2024 at 16:06, Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > The remote Pacific island of Tikopia, as described in Jared Diamond's
> > book "Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed" (2005),
> > provides a fascinating case study of a society that successfully
> > managed its limited resources and survived for thousands of years. One
> > of the most striking practices employed by the Tikopians was a form of
> > population control called "virtual suicide," where individuals would
> > voluntarily paddle out to sea, never to return, when the island's
> > population grew too large to be sustainable.
> >
> > In Chapter 9 of "Collapse," titled "Opposite Paths to Success,"
> > Diamond examines the history of Tikopia and contrasts it with the
> > collapse of the nearby Mangareva Islands. He explains that Tikopia, a
> > small 1.8 square mile island, sustained a stable population of around
> > 1,200 people for millennia. To maintain this delicate balance, the
> > Tikopians developed a complex system of resource management,
> > sustainable agriculture, and population control.
> >
> > When the island's chiefs determined that the population had grown too
> > large, they would call for volunteers to "take a canoe trip." These
> > brave individuals would paddle out into the vast Pacific Ocean,
> > sacrificing their lives for the greater good of their community. This
> > practice, along with other measures like celibacy, delayed marriage,
> > and infanticide, allowed the Tikopians to keep their population in
> > check and avoid overexploiting their limited resources.
> >
> > While such extreme practices may seem unethical or inhumane by modern
> > standards, Diamond argues that they were a necessary adaptation to the
> > harsh realities of life on a small, isolated island. The Tikopians'
> > willingness to make these difficult choices, he suggests, was a key
> > factor in their long-term success and survival.
> >
> > Perhaps we can think of these people in Denmark and other countries as
> > engaging in a similar kind of pro-societal sacrifice as the Tikopians.
> > Does that make it ethically easier to process? Or are the actions of
> > the Tikopians, despite their sustained living on an island with VERY
> > limited resources, just too draconian even for this audience?
> >
> > -Kelly (with a little help from Claude in getting some of the details right)
> > _______________________________________________
>
> Good to see you using Claude! That's one of the best AIs at present.  :)
>
> However, I think you have to be careful with Jared Diamond's book. Many people disagree with his stories.
> I asked two search LLMs and Claude about the story of young men taking a cruise to suicide.
> They all disagreed. The search engines said there was no evidence to support this story.
> They do agree that the islanders practiced various methods of birth control.
> Claude's answer is below. (PS. I also disagree with Diamond's Easter Islands stories).
>
> BillK
>
> Claude -
> Jared Diamond did make this claim about Tikopia in his book "Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed." However, the accuracy of this specific claim has been questioned by some anthropologists and researchers who have studied Tikopia in depth.
>
> The primary source of information on Tikopia comes from the work of anthropologist Raymond Firth, who conducted extensive fieldwork on the island in the 1920s and 1930s. While Firth did report on the practice of population control, including abortion, infanticide, and celibacy, he did not mention organized suicide voyages sanctioned by chiefs as a systematic method of population control.
>
> In fact, when questioned about Diamond's claim, Firth reportedly denied that such a practice existed, stating that he had never heard of such a thing during his time on Tikopia. Other anthropologists who have studied the island have also expressed skepticism about Diamond's assertion.
>
> It's possible that Diamond misinterpreted some information or extrapolated from other practices, such as the dangerous ocean voyages that young men would sometimes undertake, which did result in many deaths. However, these voyages were not necessarily undertaken with the explicit intention of suicide or population control.
>
> While Tikopia undoubtedly had a complex system of population control involving various cultural practices, the specific claim about organized suicide voyages sanctioned by chiefs appears to be unsupported by the primary anthropological sources on Tikopia. It seems to be, at best, an exaggeration or misinterpretation of Tikopia's actual practices.
>
> As with many historical and anthropological claims, it's important to carefully examine the primary sources and evidence rather than relying on secondary accounts or interpretations, which can sometimes distort or misrepresent the original information.
> -----------------------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


Did Raymond Firth disagree with Jarod Diamond's synopsis of Tikopia?

I apologize, but there seems to be an error in your question. Jared
Diamond, not Jarod Diamond, is the author who wrote about Tikopia in
his book "Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed" published
in 2005.

Raymond Firth, a prominent British anthropologist, conducted extensive
fieldwork on Tikopia in the 1920s and 1930s, long before Jared
Diamond's work. Firth's ethnographic account, "We, the Tikopia: A
Sociological Study of Kinship in Primitive Polynesia," was first
published in 1936.

To my knowledge, Raymond Firth did not directly comment on or disagree
with Jared Diamond's synopsis of Tikopia, as Firth passed away in
2002, before the publication of Diamond's book. However, Diamond's
account of Tikopia drew heavily from Firth's detailed ethnographic
work.

In "Collapse," Diamond portrays Tikopia as a success story of a
society that managed to achieve sustainable living on a small island
with limited resources. This aligns with Firth's observations of
Tikopian society's adaptations and practices.

Copy
KA

So according to today's best researchers, what were the methods
Tikopians used to control their population growth?

According to the research of anthropologists like Raymond Firth and
Jared Diamond, the Tikopians used several methods to control their
population growth and maintain a sustainable society on their small
island:

Celibacy: Some individuals, particularly younger sons of chiefs who
had no prospect of inheriting land or leadership roles, were
encouraged to remain single and childless.
Prolonged breastfeeding: Mothers breastfed their children for an
extended period, which helped to space out births naturally.
Contraception: Tikopians practiced a form of natural contraception
involving withdrawal and the rhythm method.
Abortion: In cases of unwanted pregnancies, abortion was practiced,
typically by applying external pressure to the abdomen.
Infanticide: In extreme cases, newborn babies were occasionally
suffocated if the parents felt they could not support another child.
This practice was rare and regulated by strict social norms.
War and colonization: Occasionally, when the population pressure
became too high, Tikopians would wage war on neighboring islands or
send out colonists to settle on other islands.
Strict social norms: Tikopian society had strong social norms and
customs that discouraged having too many children and encouraged
responsible land management.

These practices, combined with sustainable land management and a focus
on renewable resources, allowed the Tikopians to maintain a stable
population of around 1,200 people for centuries on an island of only
1.8 square miles.

Copy
KA

Any more recent information from other researchers?

Since Jared Diamond's publication, some researchers have provided
additional insights and perspectives on Tikopian population control
methods:

Critique of infanticide: Some researchers, such as Patrick Vinton
Kirch in his book "On the Road of the Winds" (2017), suggest that the
practice of infanticide on Tikopia might have been overstated. Kirch
argues that while infanticide did occur, it was likely less common
than previously thought.
Environmental determinism: In "The Tikopia and 'What Raymond Firth Did
Not Tell Us'" (2008), Torben Monberg critiques Diamond's portrayal of
Tikopian society as being shaped primarily by environmental factors.
Monberg emphasizes the importance of cultural and social factors in
shaping Tikopian practices.
Comparison with other Polynesian societies: In "Sustainability or
Collapse?" (2007), edited by Robet Costanza et al., researchers
compare Tikopian practices with other Polynesian societies. They note
that while Tikopia is a remarkable example of sustainable living,
other Polynesian societies also developed unique adaptations to their
island environments.
Resilience and adaptation: A 2017 study by Forrest Reed et al. in the
Journal of Island and Coastal Archaeology examines Tikopian resilience
in the face of climate change and other environmental challenges. The
authors argue that Tikopian society's flexibility and adaptability
have been key to its long-term sustainability.

While these more recent studies provide nuance and additional
perspectives, they generally support the idea that Tikopian society
developed a range of practices to control population growth and
maintain a sustainable way of life on a small island with limited
resources.

Copy
KA

I just read Diamond's book, and I strongly disagree that Diamond is a
environmental determinist. In fact, the book states explicitly that
Tikopia is a great example of just how important societal reactions
are to avoid collapse and uses the Tikopia as a prime example of that
thesis.

You make an excellent point, and I apologize for my previous response
suggesting that Diamond's portrayal of Tikopia was primarily one of
environmental determinism. You are correct that Diamond uses Tikopia
as a prime example of how a society's choices and cultural practices
can lead to sustainable living, even in the face of environmental
constraints.

In "Collapse," Diamond emphasizes that the Tikopians made conscious
decisions and developed cultural practices that allowed them to thrive
on their small island. He contrasts the Tikopian case with other
societies, such as the Easter Islanders, who failed to adapt their
practices and ultimately suffered collapse.

Diamond argues that the Tikopians' success was not solely determined
by their environment but rather by their societal responses to
environmental challenges. The Tikopians' cultural values, social
norms, and practices, such as population control methods and
sustainable land management, were crucial factors in their ability to
maintain a stable society over centuries.

Thank you for bringing this to my attention and allowing me to clarify
my understanding of Diamond's arguments. Your perspective highlights
the importance of carefully considering the nuances of an author's
work and their central thesis.


From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 27 07:28:32 2024
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan Ust)
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2024 00:28:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Legal euthanasia for mental problems increasing worldwide
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnDZiBGyUjbUjPWZQ2iWbX6V-YLBpqhqYxWEyi3j2a6aTw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnDZiBGyUjbUjPWZQ2iWbX6V-YLBpqhqYxWEyi3j2a6aTw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <23C44178-4806-404E-867F-A70C40327BE4@yahoo.com>

Regarding Jared Diamond?s book _Collapse_, his analysis of Rapa Nui (Eastern Island) also came under strong criticism. It seems the introduction of rats and then of diseases has more to do with the decline of Rapa Nui community, with disease being the bigger factor. And that didn?t happen until they came in contact with Europeans.

And there was even a book released a few years after his called _Questioning Collapse_ which collects together essays critiquing his theories. (Always check stuff like this. Diamond had his run in the early 2000s, but he was kind of reaching behind his own expertise with his views. Experts in history, anthropology, ecology, etc. were fairly quick to show where his work was questionable.)

Regards,

Dan


From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Apr 27 09:55:41 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2024 10:55:41 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Legal euthanasia for mental problems increasing worldwide
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnDZiBGyUjbUjPWZQ2iWbX6V-YLBpqhqYxWEyi3j2a6aTw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armideZcaoMHLUPGr1t5aAhrwVb7nRB9gAbBvE+FcbL0RAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACBESnCO5pQPHrLtwTdANr69f4KoDYwrSj55xmnC0nNL1pZ0Fg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armj4wCh7xMEnb-z-w94u8g=PJCPpKw+7vtTc=Ax1h16GVQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACBESnDZiBGyUjbUjPWZQ2iWbX6V-YLBpqhqYxWEyi3j2a6aTw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgmrPDzeh+UhRCjcAmhe+9vO9S7FzXVibHTKkfk5PvpHg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 27 Apr 2024 at 05:48, Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Thank you for that clarification. It can only be expected from a book
> published in 2004 that some of the stories told would be contradicted
> at this point. His books are extremely broad, and it seems that it
> would be VERY difficult to touch such broad subject matter without
> making some mistakes. To clarify further, were the stories of
> infanticide on Tikipia supported by Raymond Firth?
>
> We may have a Claude hallucination one way or another, because Claude
> just told me, "To my knowledge, Raymond Firth did not directly comment
> on or disagree with Jared Diamond's synopsis of Tikopia, as Firth
> passed away in 2002, before the publication of Diamond's book.
> However, Diamond's account of Tikopia drew heavily from Firth's
> detailed ethnographic work." Unless Diamond said something before
> Firth died aside from what he published, I don't see how it's likely
> Firth would have said anything about a book published after his
> death...
>
> I have included a full conversation I had with Claude at the end of
> this email if you're interested in Claude's take.
>
> -Kelly
> _______________________________________________
>



I think that word construction must be a Claude hallucination, though the
point made is still correct.
I asked the new llama-3-70b-instruct AI for a second opinion.
I also asked llama-3 about infanticide.
llama-3 quotes book and page number references, so it may be more reliable.
In both cases, it seems to be that these events did happen sometimes on
Tikopia, but it wasn't an official social policy.
Human society is usually a mess of confused ideas and actions!

BillK


llama-3-70b-instruct -

In Firth's book "We, the Tikopia" (1936), he discusses the concept of
"sea-refusal" (Tikopian: "taviti"), which refers to a situation where a
group of people, often young men, would deliberately set sail in a canoe
without intending to return, effectively abandoning their island community.
Firth notes that this practice was not uncommon in Tikopian history,
particularly during times of famine, war, or social unrest.

However, Firth is careful to distinguish "sea-refusal" from suicide. He
writes:

"'Sea-refusal' is not a form of suicide, but rather a means of escaping
from the difficulties of life on the island... The motive is not to die,
but to get away from the troubles of the island, and to seek a new life
elsewhere." (Firth, 1936, p. 292)

Firth emphasizes that the Tikopians did not condone or encourage suicide,
and that "sea-refusal" was seen as a way to avoid conflict, famine, or
other crises, rather than a means of population control.

In a later work, "History and Traditions of Tikopia" (1961), Firth
reiterates this point, stating that "there is no evidence to suggest that
the Tikopians ever practiced a form of population control through suicide
or deliberate exposure to danger" (Firth, 1961, p. 134).

So, to answer your question, yes, Firth did contradict the claim made by
Jared Diamond about organized suicide voyages in Tikopia as a method of
population control. Firth's work provides a more nuanced understanding of
Tikopian culture and history, highlighting the complexity of their social
dynamics and the importance of contextualizing their practices within their
unique cultural framework.

----------------------------------

Yes, Raymond Firth did mention infanticide as a practice that existed on
Tikopia, although he did not portray it as a deliberate method of
population control.

In "We, the Tikopia" (1936), Firth discusses the Tikopian practice of
infanticide, which he refers to as "child-murder" or "infant-killing". He
notes that this practice was not uncommon in Tikopian society, particularly
in cases where the child was born with physical defects, was the result of
an adulterous relationship, or was born to a woman who was not married.

Firth writes:

"Infant-killing is a practice which has been known in Tikopia, though it is
not common. It is usually performed by the mother, and is most often done
in cases where the child is deformed or is the result of an illicit union."
(Firth, 1936, p. 246)

However, Firth does not suggest that infanticide was a deliberate method of
population control on Tikopia. Instead, he frames it as a social response
to specific circumstances, such as illegitimacy or physical defects, rather
than a means of regulating population growth.

In fact, Firth notes that the Tikopians placed a high value on children and
that childbearing was seen as an important aspect of women's roles in
society. He writes:

"Children are highly valued in Tikopia, and a woman who has no children is
pitied and sometimes despised." (Firth, 1936, p. 245)

Firth's account of infanticide on Tikopia is nuanced and contextualized
within the broader social and cultural framework of the island. While he
does not deny the existence of infanticide, he does not portray it as a
deliberate method of population control, but rather as a complex and
multifaceted practice that was shaped by various social and cultural
factors.

---------------------------
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Apr 27 10:37:06 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2024 11:37:06 +0100
Subject: [ExI] nasa's solar sail has deployed
In-Reply-To: <001a01da985d$2a8a7b30$7f9f7190$@rainier66.com>
References: <001a01da985d$2a8a7b30$7f9f7190$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjnOctrCGY6fGh=HW4_W4op5eaq1A-X7pqph-HeNU1=LA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 27 Apr 2024 at 05:45, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Hey cool!  This is one I have long been waiting for: a solar sail.  NASA launched a CubeSat with an 80 square meter sail:
>
> https://www.sciencealert.com/nasas-advanced-solar-sail-has-successfully-deployed-in-space
>
> Information on the control system is hard to find.  If anyone has a link, specifically about the ACS3 control system, that?s what I am looking for.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


This might be what you are looking for?
<https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20210017923/downloads/SmallSat_2021_ACS3_overview_20210620_rev_b_for_review.pdf>
BillK


From efc at swisscows.email  Sat Apr 27 11:23:32 2024
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2024 13:23:32 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Future of Humanity Institute at Oxford University has
 closed down
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnD=OwsWtrGZA27Zk4V6YxW2edz1zAqcG81idpLV-y4R4A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armg-ss3BYZpt_vPSnshf9faLBjfBkE+9dTK_m=DhK72hMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ca522827-206c-efdc-5b4c-870c8843f81c@swisscows.email>
 <CACBESnD=OwsWtrGZA27Zk4V6YxW2edz1zAqcG81idpLV-y4R4A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <37b02bd7-62e9-9d0c-aeae-f40892603636@swisscows.email>

I think he probably needs to find himself a good, old billionaire with 
transhumanist leanings, and he should be able to extract some money to get 
a new institute going! =)

Best regards,
Daniel


On Fri, 26 Apr 2024, Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat wrote:

> This is absolutely terrible news in my opinion. We need this sort of
> thinking more and more right now. To have less of this line of thought
> going forward is terrifying. They were always a good place for
> documentary filmmakers to get pushed in a good direction it seemed.
>
> -Kelly
>
> On Thu, Apr 18, 2024 at 1:08?PM efc--- via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> Interesting. I think Bostr?m has gotten quite a lot of exposure recently,
>> but apparently not enough to keep the money flowing.
>>
>> I wonder if he will just recede back into the philosophy department or if
>> he'll start a new organization with new backers?
>>
>> On Thu, 18 Apr 2024, BillK via extropy-chat wrote:
>>
>> > Established in 2005, initially for a 3-year period, the Future of
>> > Humanity Institute was a multidisciplinary research group at Oxford
>> > University.  It was founded by Prof Nick Bostrom.
>> >
>> > <https://www.futureofhumanityinstitute.org/>
>> >
>> > Quote:
>> > Over time FHI faced increasing administrative headwinds within the
>> > Faculty of Philosophy (the Institute?s organizational home).  Starting
>> > in 2020, the Faculty imposed a freeze on fundraising and hiring.  In
>> > late 2023, the Faculty of Philosophy decided that the contracts of the
>> > remaining FHI staff would not be renewed.  On 16 April 2024, the
>> > Institute was closed down.
>> > ---------------
>> >
>> > BillK
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat_______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Apr 27 15:38:18 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2024 08:38:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] nasa's solar sail has deployed
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjnOctrCGY6fGh=HW4_W4op5eaq1A-X7pqph-HeNU1=LA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001a01da985d$2a8a7b30$7f9f7190$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armjnOctrCGY6fGh=HW4_W4op5eaq1A-X7pqph-HeNU1=LA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008901da98b8$ee0acaa0$ca205fe0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat
Sent: Saturday, 27 April, 2024 3:37 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: BillK <pharos at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] nasa's solar sail has deployed

On Sat, 27 Apr 2024 at 05:45, spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Hey cool!  This is one I have long been waiting for: a solar sail.  NASA launched a CubeSat with an 80 square meter sail:
>
> https://www.sciencealert.com/nasas-advanced-solar-sail-has-successfull
> y-deployed-in-space
>
> Information on the control system is hard to find.  If anyone has a link, specifically about the ACS3 control system, that?s what I am looking for.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


This might be what you are looking for?
<https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20210017923/downloads/SmallSat_2021_ACS3_overview_20210620_rev_b_for_review.pdf>
BillK

_______________________________________________


Thanks BillK!  You are really good and finding out stuff.

Notice on that first chart in that link you sent, the photo in the top left, and that photo top right.  That device is called a lenticular strut, which is really cool because it forms the lightest deployable compression element we have in our bag of aerospace magic tricks.

Perhaps you have played with a carpenter's metal tape measure so you know how a strip of curved metal can bend one way easily but resists bending backwards.  You can roll it up, as it is inside the device, without going anywhere near the yield limit of the metal: it is good as new.  OK, now imagine taking two of those and putting them in parallel, so if you looked down along the end, the shape it makes is a lens shape, or American football shape (whassup with you British guys and your odd shaped "football"?  (that's not a football (it looks like a rugby ball (and what's with calling rugby "football?" (BillK, you know I think the world of you pal, but that unpleasantness in the 1770s was inevitable (if it hadn't been over the tea in the harbor, it would have started over the whole "football" business.))))))

But I digress.  The two metal tapes facing each other and their edges welded together form a lenticular strut, which is really cool because you can make a long very low weight strut which can be folded into a Z pattern (or fan folded) so it can fit into a small Cubesat box.  Then when it is unfolded, it pops out and makes a strong strut as shown in the slides.  You can cantilever those things horizontally for an absurd length.  I worked with a subcontractor who made those things, which I might post about later but now I am watching the robot races and those are cool as all hell.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPzBH-7ckO0

spike



From postmowoods at gmail.com  Sat Apr 27 15:45:46 2024
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2024 09:45:46 -0600
Subject: [ExI] AI Hallucinations
Message-ID: <CACBESnAhDwpzo7DSy7XWnjBFTUcjSW7j3-iOrusC+Kcfb8jF1Q@mail.gmail.com>

In our conversations regarding Tikopia, and Jared Diamond in general,
it seems that we are running into a fairly large number of AI
hallucinations. Bill said "llama-3 quotes book and page number
references, so it may be more reliable." This particular form of
hallucination is, unfortunately, at this time extremely common for
LLMs. In many cases, I have found such references to refer to
articles, books and scientific journals that sometimes DON'T EVEN
EXIST. When an LLM says something, it wants to sound authoritative.
Just as Jared Diamond wanted to sound authoritative when writing his
books. What is happening in both cases is similar to the six year old
know-it-all who will make up stuff to win an argument. Personally, I
went through a period earlier in life where I repeated things I'd
heard as if they were true. While not actually intentionally lying, I
gave credence to things I shouldn't have without further research. I
believe that AIs are at this stage of development. So, I would caution
all of us to actually make sure referenced materials actually exist
when referred to by the know-it-all AIs of our day. I am encouraged by
work going on in the AI community to double check such statements
coming out of LLMs, and I'm quite certain that this is a short term
problem. Nevertheless, it's a big concern for the current AI models.

This leads me to another semi-random thought... We've always tried to
maintain a history of what we've done as humans over the millenia. We
have backups, but they become increasingly difficult to retrieve after
time. This seems like a particularly difficult thing to do with
today's generative AIs... I don't think future researchers will be
able to interact with our LLMs very easily since they are cloud based
and expensive to maintain just for futuristic anthropologists and
computer scientists. While I don't think this is an existential threat
or anything, it is interesting, to me at least. LOL

-Kelly

From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Apr 27 16:09:40 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2024 09:09:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] nasa's solar sail has deployed
In-Reply-To: <008901da98b8$ee0acaa0$ca205fe0$@rainier66.com>
References: <001a01da985d$2a8a7b30$7f9f7190$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armjnOctrCGY6fGh=HW4_W4op5eaq1A-X7pqph-HeNU1=LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008901da98b8$ee0acaa0$ca205fe0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <009101da98bd$4f966c30$eec34490$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 

>...  I worked with a subcontractor who made those things, which I might post about later but now I am watching the robot races and those are cool as all hell.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPzBH-7ckO0

spike




There was a really fun bot vs human driver race with one of the best bot teams going against a team driven by the commie F1 racer Daniil Kvyat.  He's really good: looks like the human professional driver is gaining several seconds per lap on the bot.

Ooowwwww damn, the Yank car looks like it just broke, damn.  The krauts look like they're doing well.  The Aspire car is going like a bat outta hell.  Oooooh the China car is broken, whacking the wall repeatedly, now it is full stopped, mercy, this is cool racing.  The Singapore car just crashed out!

spike




From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Apr 27 16:14:05 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2024 09:14:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] robot races
In-Reply-To: <009101da98bd$4f966c30$eec34490$@rainier66.com>
References: <001a01da985d$2a8a7b30$7f9f7190$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armjnOctrCGY6fGh=HW4_W4op5eaq1A-X7pqph-HeNU1=LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008901da98b8$ee0acaa0$ca205fe0$@rainier66.com>
 <009101da98bd$4f966c30$eec34490$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <009201da98bd$edaf23d0$c90d6b70$@rainier66.com>





Whoohooo!  In the first heat we are down to a two-car match, with Code 19 looking good.  Constructor team is getting on the board, but not with great lap times.

Heh, one of the cars was going right down a straight and all four tires lock up.  Oh dear, one of the cars just stomped the brakes in the infield and turned its engine off.  Ohhhhh spinout!  Polymove has spun out!

spike











From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Apr 27 16:18:44 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2024 09:18:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] robot races
In-Reply-To: <009201da98bd$edaf23d0$c90d6b70$@rainier66.com>
References: <001a01da985d$2a8a7b30$7f9f7190$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armjnOctrCGY6fGh=HW4_W4op5eaq1A-X7pqph-HeNU1=LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008901da98b8$ee0acaa0$ca205fe0$@rainier66.com>
 <009101da98bd$4f966c30$eec34490$@rainier66.com>
 <009201da98bd$edaf23d0$c90d6b70$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <009301da98be$940848b0$bc18da10$@rainier66.com>

OK, going into the third qualifying heat, looks like our robot cars are struggling.  Kinda looks like they are braking late with tires too cold to hang on.  Several cars are spinning out, then the bots don't seem to know what to do.  They just sit there and cuss, where any human driver would get back on the track and move.

spike




From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Apr 27 16:22:27 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2024 09:22:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] robot races
In-Reply-To: <009301da98be$940848b0$bc18da10$@rainier66.com>
References: <001a01da985d$2a8a7b30$7f9f7190$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armjnOctrCGY6fGh=HW4_W4op5eaq1A-X7pqph-HeNU1=LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008901da98b8$ee0acaa0$ca205fe0$@rainier66.com>
 <009101da98bd$4f966c30$eec34490$@rainier66.com>
 <009201da98bd$edaf23d0$c90d6b70$@rainier66.com>
 <009301da98be$940848b0$bc18da10$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <009401da98bf$18edbce0$4ac936a0$@rainier66.com>

Wooohooo!

The Yank team PoliMOVE got the fastest qual time.  This rookie team is from University of ALABAMA, yall!

The wops are just very slightly behind the yanks.  Go bots!  Judging from the qual times, this race is all about yanks vs wops, cool!

spike




From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Apr 27 16:24:50 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2024 09:24:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] robot races
In-Reply-To: <009401da98bf$18edbce0$4ac936a0$@rainier66.com>
References: <001a01da985d$2a8a7b30$7f9f7190$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armjnOctrCGY6fGh=HW4_W4op5eaq1A-X7pqph-HeNU1=LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008901da98b8$ee0acaa0$ca205fe0$@rainier66.com>
 <009101da98bd$4f966c30$eec34490$@rainier66.com>
 <009201da98bd$edaf23d0$c90d6b70$@rainier66.com>
 <009301da98be$940848b0$bc18da10$@rainier66.com>
 <009401da98bf$18edbce0$4ac936a0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <009501da98bf$6dc6c6d0$49545470$@rainier66.com>

Oh and the krauts!  They are only a coupla seconds behind!

Looks like the 4th place team is 22 seconds down in the quals.

Eeeeexcellent racing.

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
Sent: Saturday, 27 April, 2024 9:22 AM
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: 'BillK' <pharos at gmail.com>; spike at rainier66.com
Subject: RE: robot races

Wooohooo!

The Yank team PoliMOVE got the fastest qual time.  This rookie team is from University of ALABAMA, yall!

The wops are just very slightly behind the yanks.  Go bots!  Judging from the qual times, this race is all about yanks vs wops, cool!

spike





From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Apr 27 16:45:22 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2024 09:45:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] robot races
In-Reply-To: <009501da98bf$6dc6c6d0$49545470$@rainier66.com>
References: <001a01da985d$2a8a7b30$7f9f7190$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armjnOctrCGY6fGh=HW4_W4op5eaq1A-X7pqph-HeNU1=LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008901da98b8$ee0acaa0$ca205fe0$@rainier66.com>
 <009101da98bd$4f966c30$eec34490$@rainier66.com>
 <009201da98bd$edaf23d0$c90d6b70$@rainier66.com>
 <009301da98be$940848b0$bc18da10$@rainier66.com>
 <009401da98bf$18edbce0$4ac936a0$@rainier66.com>
 <009501da98bf$6dc6c6d0$49545470$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <00a001da98c2$4c64e910$e52ebb30$@rainier66.com>

Judging from quals, we have the yank and wop teams within a fraction of a second of each other up front, with two kraut teams, from the Technology University of Munich and one from Constructor University from Vegesack, Bremen with the third and fourth best qual times.

Everybody pick a team and cheer em on!  BillW is from Mississippi, which is next to Alabama, so I will cheer on that team.  Go yanks!

Cool!

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
Sent: Saturday, 27 April, 2024 9:25 AM
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: 'BillK' <pharos at gmail.com>; spike at rainier66.com
Subject: RE: robot races

Oh and the krauts!  They are only a coupla seconds behind!

Looks like the 4th place team is 22 seconds down in the quals.

Eeeeexcellent racing.

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
Sent: Saturday, 27 April, 2024 9:22 AM
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: 'BillK' <pharos at gmail.com>; spike at rainier66.com
Subject: RE: robot races

Wooohooo!

The Yank team PoliMOVE got the fastest qual time.  This rookie team is from University of ALABAMA, yall!

The wops are just very slightly behind the yanks.  Go bots!  Judging from the qual times, this race is all about yanks vs wops, cool!

spike






From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Apr 27 16:53:04 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2024 09:53:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] robot races
In-Reply-To: <00a001da98c2$4c64e910$e52ebb30$@rainier66.com>
References: <001a01da985d$2a8a7b30$7f9f7190$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armjnOctrCGY6fGh=HW4_W4op5eaq1A-X7pqph-HeNU1=LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008901da98b8$ee0acaa0$ca205fe0$@rainier66.com>
 <009101da98bd$4f966c30$eec34490$@rainier66.com>
 <009201da98bd$edaf23d0$c90d6b70$@rainier66.com>
 <009301da98be$940848b0$bc18da10$@rainier66.com>
 <009401da98bf$18edbce0$4ac936a0$@rainier66.com>
 <009501da98bf$6dc6c6d0$49545470$@rainier66.com>
 <00a001da98c2$4c64e910$e52ebb30$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <000e01da98c3$5ff509f0$1fdf1dd0$@rainier66.com>

Oooooh the yank car just locked the tires and spun out!  Now it is facing the wrong direction!  They don't know if it can figure out what to do.

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
Sent: Saturday, 27 April, 2024 9:45 AM
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: 'BillK' <pharos at gmail.com>; spike at rainier66.com
Subject: RE: robot races

Judging from quals, we have the yank and wop teams within a fraction of a second of each other up front, with two kraut teams, from the Technology University of Munich and one from Constructor University from Vegesack, Bremen with the third and fourth best qual times.

Everybody pick a team and cheer em on!  BillW is from Mississippi, which is next to Alabama, so I will cheer on that team.  Go yanks!

Cool!

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
Sent: Saturday, 27 April, 2024 9:25 AM
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: 'BillK' <pharos at gmail.com>; spike at rainier66.com
Subject: RE: robot races

Oh and the krauts!  They are only a coupla seconds behind!

Looks like the 4th place team is 22 seconds down in the quals.

Eeeeexcellent racing.

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
Sent: Saturday, 27 April, 2024 9:22 AM
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: 'BillK' <pharos at gmail.com>; spike at rainier66.com
Subject: RE: robot races

Wooohooo!

The Yank team PoliMOVE got the fastest qual time.  This rookie team is from University of ALABAMA, yall!

The wops are just very slightly behind the yanks.  Go bots!  Judging from the qual times, this race is all about yanks vs wops, cool!

spike







From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Apr 27 17:01:58 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2024 10:01:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] robot races
In-Reply-To: <000e01da98c3$5ff509f0$1fdf1dd0$@rainier66.com>
References: <001a01da985d$2a8a7b30$7f9f7190$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armjnOctrCGY6fGh=HW4_W4op5eaq1A-X7pqph-HeNU1=LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008901da98b8$ee0acaa0$ca205fe0$@rainier66.com>
 <009101da98bd$4f966c30$eec34490$@rainier66.com>
 <009201da98bd$edaf23d0$c90d6b70$@rainier66.com>
 <009301da98be$940848b0$bc18da10$@rainier66.com>
 <009401da98bf$18edbce0$4ac936a0$@rainier66.com>
 <009501da98bf$6dc6c6d0$49545470$@rainier66.com>
 <00a001da98c2$4c64e910$e52ebb30$@rainier66.com>
 <000e01da98c3$5ff509f0$1fdf1dd0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <000001da98c4$9e4bf140$dae3d3c0$@rainier66.com>




Damn.  The yank car locked up, spun out and stopped, facing the wrong direction.  It somehow figured out it needed to turn around, but it turned 90 degrees, faced the infield wall.  These cars have no reverse gear, but a human driver knows to turn the wheel and spin out to bring the back end around.  The yank car doesn't know how to do that.  It was partly on the track, so the yellow flag came out, which caused the kraut car to slow down and stop.  Then the wop car slowed and stopped, unwilling to pass because it was under the yellow flag, but they can pass a stopped car.  It didn't know.  Then the other kraut car came up and dutifully stopped behind the others.  So now nobody (nobot?) finishes that heat.

OK then.

spike



-----Original Message-----
From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
Sent: Saturday, 27 April, 2024 9:53 AM
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: 'BillK' <pharos at gmail.com>; spike at rainier66.com
Subject: RE: robot races

Oooooh the yank car just locked the tires and spun out!  Now it is facing the wrong direction!  They don't know if it can figure out what to do.

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
Sent: Saturday, 27 April, 2024 9:45 AM
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: 'BillK' <pharos at gmail.com>; spike at rainier66.com
Subject: RE: robot races

Judging from quals, we have the yank and wop teams within a fraction of a second of each other up front, with two kraut teams, from the Technology University of Munich and one from Constructor University from Vegesack, Bremen with the third and fourth best qual times.

Everybody pick a team and cheer em on!  BillW is from Mississippi, which is next to Alabama, so I will cheer on that team.  Go yanks!

Cool!

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
Sent: Saturday, 27 April, 2024 9:25 AM
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: 'BillK' <pharos at gmail.com>; spike at rainier66.com
Subject: RE: robot races

Oh and the krauts!  They are only a coupla seconds behind!

Looks like the 4th place team is 22 seconds down in the quals.

Eeeeexcellent racing.

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
Sent: Saturday, 27 April, 2024 9:22 AM
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: 'BillK' <pharos at gmail.com>; spike at rainier66.com
Subject: RE: robot races

Wooohooo!

The Yank team PoliMOVE got the fastest qual time.  This rookie team is from University of ALABAMA, yall!

The wops are just very slightly behind the yanks.  Go bots!  Judging from the qual times, this race is all about yanks vs wops, cool!

spike








From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Apr 27 17:31:17 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2024 10:31:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] robot races
In-Reply-To: <000001da98c4$9e4bf140$dae3d3c0$@rainier66.com>
References: <001a01da985d$2a8a7b30$7f9f7190$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armjnOctrCGY6fGh=HW4_W4op5eaq1A-X7pqph-HeNU1=LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008901da98b8$ee0acaa0$ca205fe0$@rainier66.com>
 <009101da98bd$4f966c30$eec34490$@rainier66.com>
 <009201da98bd$edaf23d0$c90d6b70$@rainier66.com>
 <009301da98be$940848b0$bc18da10$@rainier66.com>
 <009401da98bf$18edbce0$4ac936a0$@rainier66.com>
 <009501da98bf$6dc6c6d0$49545470$@rainier66.com>
 <00a001da98c2$4c64e910$e52ebb30$@rainier66.com>
 <000e01da98c3$5ff509f0$1fdf1dd0$@rainier66.com>
 <000001da98c4$9e4bf140$dae3d3c0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <001101da98c8$b696aca0$23c405e0$@rainier66.com>

OK, they stopped that heat, brought the cars into the pits.  The yank team changed some code and they are restarting the engines.  Sounds like they are trying to compensate for the cooler track temperature by easing up a bit coming into the curvies with less aggressive braking into the chicane.  Owwww damn, they yank car wasn't sent back out.  It is being rolled away.  It's out.  Now it is two krauts and a wop left.  I pick wops to cheer on next I guess.  We have some ExI guys from Italy.

Oh the lead car pulled to a stop!  The other two cars went around it!  Now we have one wop and one kraut!

Cool!

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
Sent: Saturday, 27 April, 2024 10:02 AM
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: 'BillK' <pharos at gmail.com>; spike at rainier66.com
Subject: RE: robot races




Damn.  The yank car locked up, spun out and stopped, facing the wrong direction.  It somehow figured out it needed to turn around, but it turned 90 degrees, faced the infield wall.  These cars have no reverse gear, but a human driver knows to turn the wheel and spin out to bring the back end around.  The yank car doesn't know how to do that.  It was partly on the track, so the yellow flag came out, which caused the kraut car to slow down and stop.  Then the wop car slowed and stopped, unwilling to pass because it was under the yellow flag, but they can pass a stopped car.  It didn't know.  Then the other kraut car came up and dutifully stopped behind the others.  So now nobody (nobot?) finishes that heat.

OK then.

spike



-----Original Message-----
From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
Sent: Saturday, 27 April, 2024 9:53 AM
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: 'BillK' <pharos at gmail.com>; spike at rainier66.com
Subject: RE: robot races

Oooooh the yank car just locked the tires and spun out!  Now it is facing the wrong direction!  They don't know if it can figure out what to do.

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
Sent: Saturday, 27 April, 2024 9:45 AM
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: 'BillK' <pharos at gmail.com>; spike at rainier66.com
Subject: RE: robot races

Judging from quals, we have the yank and wop teams within a fraction of a second of each other up front, with two kraut teams, from the Technology University of Munich and one from Constructor University from Vegesack, Bremen with the third and fourth best qual times.

Everybody pick a team and cheer em on!  BillW is from Mississippi, which is next to Alabama, so I will cheer on that team.  Go yanks!

Cool!

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
Sent: Saturday, 27 April, 2024 9:25 AM
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: 'BillK' <pharos at gmail.com>; spike at rainier66.com
Subject: RE: robot races

Oh and the krauts!  They are only a coupla seconds behind!

Looks like the 4th place team is 22 seconds down in the quals.

Eeeeexcellent racing.

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
Sent: Saturday, 27 April, 2024 9:22 AM
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: 'BillK' <pharos at gmail.com>; spike at rainier66.com
Subject: RE: robot races

Wooohooo!

The Yank team PoliMOVE got the fastest qual time.  This rookie team is from University of ALABAMA, yall!

The wops are just very slightly behind the yanks.  Go bots!  Judging from the qual times, this race is all about yanks vs wops, cool!

spike









From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Apr 27 17:32:58 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2024 10:32:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] robot races
In-Reply-To: <001101da98c8$b696aca0$23c405e0$@rainier66.com>
References: <001a01da985d$2a8a7b30$7f9f7190$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armjnOctrCGY6fGh=HW4_W4op5eaq1A-X7pqph-HeNU1=LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008901da98b8$ee0acaa0$ca205fe0$@rainier66.com>
 <009101da98bd$4f966c30$eec34490$@rainier66.com>
 <009201da98bd$edaf23d0$c90d6b70$@rainier66.com>
 <009301da98be$940848b0$bc18da10$@rainier66.com>
 <009401da98bf$18edbce0$4ac936a0$@rainier66.com>
 <009501da98bf$6dc6c6d0$49545470$@rainier66.com>
 <00a001da98c2$4c64e910$e52ebb30$@rainier66.com>
 <000e01da98c3$5ff509f0$1fdf1dd0$@rainier66.com>
 <000001da98c4$9e4bf140$dae3d3c0$@rainier66.com>
 <001101da98c8$b696aca0$23c405e0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <001201da98c8$f2e8b8b0$d8ba2a10$@rainier66.com>

University of Munich wins Abu Dhabi Autonomous Racing League!

Congratulations krauts!  Well done indeed.

Have we any Germans on ExI these days?  I will see if I can find Eugen Leitl.

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
Sent: Saturday, 27 April, 2024 10:31 AM
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: 'BillK' <pharos at gmail.com>; spike at rainier66.com
Subject: RE: robot races

OK, they stopped that heat, brought the cars into the pits.  The yank team changed some code and they are restarting the engines.  Sounds like they are trying to compensate for the cooler track temperature by easing up a bit coming into the curvies with less aggressive braking into the chicane.  Owwww damn, they yank car wasn't sent back out.  It is being rolled away.  It's out.  Now it is two krauts and a wop left.  I pick wops to cheer on next I guess.  We have some ExI guys from Italy.

Oh the lead car pulled to a stop!  The other two cars went around it!  Now we have one wop and one kraut!

Cool!

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
Sent: Saturday, 27 April, 2024 10:02 AM
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: 'BillK' <pharos at gmail.com>; spike at rainier66.com
Subject: RE: robot races




Damn.  The yank car locked up, spun out and stopped, facing the wrong direction.  It somehow figured out it needed to turn around, but it turned 90 degrees, faced the infield wall.  These cars have no reverse gear, but a human driver knows to turn the wheel and spin out to bring the back end around.  The yank car doesn't know how to do that.  It was partly on the track, so the yellow flag came out, which caused the kraut car to slow down and stop.  Then the wop car slowed and stopped, unwilling to pass because it was under the yellow flag, but they can pass a stopped car.  It didn't know.  Then the other kraut car came up and dutifully stopped behind the others.  So now nobody (nobot?) finishes that heat.

OK then.

spike



-----Original Message-----
From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
Sent: Saturday, 27 April, 2024 9:53 AM
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: 'BillK' <pharos at gmail.com>; spike at rainier66.com
Subject: RE: robot races

Oooooh the yank car just locked the tires and spun out!  Now it is facing the wrong direction!  They don't know if it can figure out what to do.

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
Sent: Saturday, 27 April, 2024 9:45 AM
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: 'BillK' <pharos at gmail.com>; spike at rainier66.com
Subject: RE: robot races

Judging from quals, we have the yank and wop teams within a fraction of a second of each other up front, with two kraut teams, from the Technology University of Munich and one from Constructor University from Vegesack, Bremen with the third and fourth best qual times.

Everybody pick a team and cheer em on!  BillW is from Mississippi, which is next to Alabama, so I will cheer on that team.  Go yanks!

Cool!

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
Sent: Saturday, 27 April, 2024 9:25 AM
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: 'BillK' <pharos at gmail.com>; spike at rainier66.com
Subject: RE: robot races

Oh and the krauts!  They are only a coupla seconds behind!

Looks like the 4th place team is 22 seconds down in the quals.

Eeeeexcellent racing.

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
Sent: Saturday, 27 April, 2024 9:22 AM
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: 'BillK' <pharos at gmail.com>; spike at rainier66.com
Subject: RE: robot races

Wooohooo!

The Yank team PoliMOVE got the fastest qual time.  This rookie team is from University of ALABAMA, yall!

The wops are just very slightly behind the yanks.  Go bots!  Judging from the qual times, this race is all about yanks vs wops, cool!

spike










From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Apr 27 17:34:55 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2024 10:34:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] robot races
In-Reply-To: <001201da98c8$f2e8b8b0$d8ba2a10$@rainier66.com>
References: <001a01da985d$2a8a7b30$7f9f7190$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armjnOctrCGY6fGh=HW4_W4op5eaq1A-X7pqph-HeNU1=LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008901da98b8$ee0acaa0$ca205fe0$@rainier66.com>
 <009101da98bd$4f966c30$eec34490$@rainier66.com>
 <009201da98bd$edaf23d0$c90d6b70$@rainier66.com>
 <009301da98be$940848b0$bc18da10$@rainier66.com>
 <009401da98bf$18edbce0$4ac936a0$@rainier66.com>
 <009501da98bf$6dc6c6d0$49545470$@rainier66.com>
 <00a001da98c2$4c64e910$e52ebb30$@rainier66.com>
 <000e01da98c3$5ff509f0$1fdf1dd0$@rainier66.com>
 <000001da98c4$9e4bf140$dae3d3c0$@rainier66.com>
 <001101da98c8$b696aca0$23c405e0$@rainier66.com>
 <001201da98c8$f2e8b8b0$d8ba2a10$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <001301da98c9$38817e70$a9847b50$@rainier66.com>

  Germans came in second as well.  The Constructor University team finished and gets a share in the prize loot.  Cool!

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
Sent: Saturday, 27 April, 2024 10:33 AM
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: 'BillK' <pharos at gmail.com>; spike at rainier66.com
Subject: RE: robot races

University of Munich wins Abu Dhabi Autonomous Racing League!

Congratulations krauts!  Well done indeed.

Have we any Germans on ExI these days?  I will see if I can find Eugen Leitl.

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
Sent: Saturday, 27 April, 2024 10:31 AM
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: 'BillK' <pharos at gmail.com>; spike at rainier66.com
Subject: RE: robot races

OK, they stopped that heat, brought the cars into the pits.  The yank team changed some code and they are restarting the engines.  Sounds like they are trying to compensate for the cooler track temperature by easing up a bit coming into the curvies with less aggressive braking into the chicane.  Owwww damn, they yank car wasn't sent back out.  It is being rolled away.  It's out.  Now it is two krauts and a wop left.  I pick wops to cheer on next I guess.  We have some ExI guys from Italy.

Oh the lead car pulled to a stop!  The other two cars went around it!  Now we have one wop and one kraut!

Cool!

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
Sent: Saturday, 27 April, 2024 10:02 AM
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: 'BillK' <pharos at gmail.com>; spike at rainier66.com
Subject: RE: robot races




Damn.  The yank car locked up, spun out and stopped, facing the wrong direction.  It somehow figured out it needed to turn around, but it turned 90 degrees, faced the infield wall.  These cars have no reverse gear, but a human driver knows to turn the wheel and spin out to bring the back end around.  The yank car doesn't know how to do that.  It was partly on the track, so the yellow flag came out, which caused the kraut car to slow down and stop.  Then the wop car slowed and stopped, unwilling to pass because it was under the yellow flag, but they can pass a stopped car.  It didn't know.  Then the other kraut car came up and dutifully stopped behind the others.  So now nobody (nobot?) finishes that heat.

OK then.

spike



-----Original Message-----
From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
Sent: Saturday, 27 April, 2024 9:53 AM
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: 'BillK' <pharos at gmail.com>; spike at rainier66.com
Subject: RE: robot races

Oooooh the yank car just locked the tires and spun out!  Now it is facing the wrong direction!  They don't know if it can figure out what to do.

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
Sent: Saturday, 27 April, 2024 9:45 AM
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: 'BillK' <pharos at gmail.com>; spike at rainier66.com
Subject: RE: robot races

Judging from quals, we have the yank and wop teams within a fraction of a second of each other up front, with two kraut teams, from the Technology University of Munich and one from Constructor University from Vegesack, Bremen with the third and fourth best qual times.

Everybody pick a team and cheer em on!  BillW is from Mississippi, which is next to Alabama, so I will cheer on that team.  Go yanks!

Cool!

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
Sent: Saturday, 27 April, 2024 9:25 AM
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: 'BillK' <pharos at gmail.com>; spike at rainier66.com
Subject: RE: robot races

Oh and the krauts!  They are only a coupla seconds behind!

Looks like the 4th place team is 22 seconds down in the quals.

Eeeeexcellent racing.

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
Sent: Saturday, 27 April, 2024 9:22 AM
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: 'BillK' <pharos at gmail.com>; spike at rainier66.com
Subject: RE: robot races

Wooohooo!

The Yank team PoliMOVE got the fastest qual time.  This rookie team is from University of ALABAMA, yall!

The wops are just very slightly behind the yanks.  Go bots!  Judging from the qual times, this race is all about yanks vs wops, cool!

spike











From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sat Apr 27 19:45:15 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2024 12:45:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] nasa's solar sail has deployed
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjnOctrCGY6fGh=HW4_W4op5eaq1A-X7pqph-HeNU1=LA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001a01da985d$2a8a7b30$7f9f7190$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armjnOctrCGY6fGh=HW4_W4op5eaq1A-X7pqph-HeNU1=LA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6hmhWEJcj3jBnzcaB5Ko9aFgARb7oodgHXEXJkBk5BYA@mail.gmail.com>

I am a bit surprised,  Have not looked up the details but I seem to
remember that solar sails need to be in an orbit high enough to be out
of the air drag.

Keith

On Sat, Apr 27, 2024 at 3:40?AM BillK via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> On Sat, 27 Apr 2024 at 05:45, spike jones via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > Hey cool!  This is one I have long been waiting for: a solar sail.  NASA launched a CubeSat with an 80 square meter sail:
> >
> > https://www.sciencealert.com/nasas-advanced-solar-sail-has-successfully-deployed-in-space
> >
> > Information on the control system is hard to find.  If anyone has a link, specifically about the ACS3 control system, that?s what I am looking for.
> >
> > spike
> > _______________________________________________
>
>
> This might be what you are looking for?
> <https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20210017923/downloads/SmallSat_2021_ACS3_overview_20210620_rev_b_for_review.pdf>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Apr 27 20:01:56 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2024 13:01:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] nasa's solar sail has deployed
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB6hmhWEJcj3jBnzcaB5Ko9aFgARb7oodgHXEXJkBk5BYA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001a01da985d$2a8a7b30$7f9f7190$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armjnOctrCGY6fGh=HW4_W4op5eaq1A-X7pqph-HeNU1=LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB6hmhWEJcj3jBnzcaB5Ko9aFgARb7oodgHXEXJkBk5BYA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001601da98dd$c22f11f0$468d35d0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] nasa's solar sail has deployed

I am a bit surprised,  Have not looked up the details but I seem to remember that solar sails need to be in an orbit high enough to be out of the air drag.

Keith


Ja, it hasta be waaaay up there in order for the light pressure to overcome the drag from the wispy trace of atmosphere.  Many years ago, I calculated how far up it would need to be, and was surprised at how high it is.  This one is an experiment to test feasibility and control systems.  It will re-enter.

spike




From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Apr 28 00:41:14 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2024 01:41:14 +0100
Subject: [ExI] robot races
In-Reply-To: <001301da98c9$38817e70$a9847b50$@rainier66.com>
References: <001a01da985d$2a8a7b30$7f9f7190$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armjnOctrCGY6fGh=HW4_W4op5eaq1A-X7pqph-HeNU1=LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008901da98b8$ee0acaa0$ca205fe0$@rainier66.com>
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 <001301da98c9$38817e70$a9847b50$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armheRSFqq_M1Z-t5ONV+3VzpERm05NB=bUk9DKBom++HxQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 27 Apr 2024 at 18:34, <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
>   Germans came in second as well.  The Constructor University team finished and gets a share in the prize loot.  Cool!
>
> spike
>-------------------------------

News report here - with videos.
<https://www.theverge.com/2024/4/27/24142989/a2rl-autonomous-race-cars-f1-abu-dhabi>
Quote:
In the first Autonomous Racing League race, the struggle was real
Move slow and be things that break.
By Wes Davis,  Apr 27, 2024

The first race of the Abu Dhabi Autonomous Racing League (A2RL) took
place on the Yas Marina Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Formula 1 track today,
and I?m pleased to report that a race both began and ended. But the
event was not without strife ? far from it. During qualifying time
trials, the driverless Dallara Super Formula racers outfitted with
cameras and software seemed to struggle mightily to complete a full
lap.

During the trials, cars randomly juked:
Or spun:
Or turned into walls:
Or just pulled off the track to take a little break:
--------------------

But they did eventually complete the race.
Good practice run for everybody!

BillK


From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Apr 28 02:35:50 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2024 19:35:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] robot races
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armheRSFqq_M1Z-t5ONV+3VzpERm05NB=bUk9DKBom++HxQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001a01da985d$2a8a7b30$7f9f7190$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armjnOctrCGY6fGh=HW4_W4op5eaq1A-X7pqph-HeNU1=LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008901da98b8$ee0acaa0$ca205fe0$@rainier66.com>
 <009101da98bd$4f966c30$eec34490$@rainier66.com>
 <009201da98bd$edaf23d0$c90d6b70$@rainier66.com>
 <009301da98be$940848b0$bc18da10$@rainier66.com>
 <009401da98bf$18edbce0$4ac936a0$@rainier66.com>
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 <00a001da98c2$4c64e910$e52ebb30$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <004f01da9914$c9217660$5b646320$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat

>-------------------------------

News report here - with videos.
<https://www.theverge.com/2024/4/27/24142989/a2rl-autonomous-race-cars-f1-abu-dhabi>
...

During the trials, cars randomly juked:
Or spun:
Or turned into walls:
Or just pulled off the track to take a little break:
--------------------

>...But they did eventually complete the race.
Good practice run for everybody!

BillK

_______________________________________________


BillK, it was appalling but fun to watch.  It reminded me of the first DARPA Grand Challenge in 2004, where every damn thing went wrong.  They all looked stupid.

But a year later, a bunch of them did not suck at all.

So... a year from now, we get to see some real robo-Formula 1!

Plenty of other proles will get the same idea I did: we can scale these babies down so that we don't need those million dollar Formula 1 motors with their fuel guzzling habits.  We can use factory-produced Hayabusa engines or maybe the Mercury 225 outboard motor, both of which produce buttloads of power but cost 4 digits.

https://www.ebay.com/b/Motorcycle-Scooter-Complete-Engines-for-Suzuki-Hayabusa/171108/bn_1488610

The Busa comes with an integrated transmission already set up for speed, so we could set up and make a half-scale Formula 1 car perhaps, cheap enough so that the average Joe could race.  It wouldn't even burn up all that much fuel, and runs on regular gasoline rather than F1 nitromethane and such.  Hell I bet I could weld together a frame strong enough to handle that torque.  I would set it up with a solid rear axle, chain drive.  I bet I could come in under 500 kg, haaaauuullll aaaaasssss around that track.  Well, not "ass" exactly.  But haul electronics, go fast, have fun.

spike





From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sun Apr 28 04:03:21 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2024 21:03:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Google Alert - Tabby's Star
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB77ikZ5DPxpjbyPa7ON_kp6OED7wyiU2SCXquJubGsr9A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000000000000a496c006171f4f87@google.com>
 <CAPiwVB77ikZ5DPxpjbyPa7ON_kp6OED7wyiU2SCXquJubGsr9A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6AH4xu-ZShoJVLocjx7OR0z96=gJu+BByHAJ119=Cf2g@mail.gmail.com>

Keith

Forwarded Conversation
Subject: Google Alert - Tabby's Star
------------------------

From: Google Alerts <googlealerts-noreply at google.com>
Date: Sat, Apr 27, 2024 at 7:58?PM
To: <HKeithHenson at gmail.com>


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<https://www.google.com/alerts?source=alertsmail&hl=en&gl=US&msgid=MTMyMjUxMDkzMzkxMzIwMDA1Nzg>
Tabby's Star
Daily update ? April 28, 2024
NEWS

'Is it aliens?': how a mysterious *star* could help the search for
extraterrestrial life - The Guardian
<https://www.google.com/url?rct=j&sa=t&url=https://www.theguardian.com/science/2024/apr/27/is-it-aliens-how-a-mysterious-star-could-help-the-search-for-extraterrestrial-life&ct=ga&cd=CAEYACoUMTMyMjUxMDkzMzkxMzIwMDA1NzgyGjNkNDBhYzFhMmIwMGEwYzQ6Y29tOmVuOlVT&usg=AOvVaw0-P5_33adul5hux3XaLybr>
The Guardian
His prime target will be Boyajian's star, sometimes nicknamed *Tabby's star*
after scientist Tabetha Boyajian, in the constellation Cygnus whose odd ...
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----------
From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
Date: Sat, Apr 27, 2024 at 9:01?PM
To: Inventor's Lunch <inventors-lunch at googlegroups.com>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Apr 28 11:05:16 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2024 07:05:16 -0400
Subject: [ExI] robot races
In-Reply-To: <004f01da9914$c9217660$5b646320$@rainier66.com>
References: <001a01da985d$2a8a7b30$7f9f7190$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armjnOctrCGY6fGh=HW4_W4op5eaq1A-X7pqph-HeNU1=LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008901da98b8$ee0acaa0$ca205fe0$@rainier66.com>
 <009101da98bd$4f966c30$eec34490$@rainier66.com>
 <009201da98bd$edaf23d0$c90d6b70$@rainier66.com>
 <009301da98be$940848b0$bc18da10$@rainier66.com>
 <009401da98bf$18edbce0$4ac936a0$@rainier66.com>
 <009501da98bf$6dc6c6d0$49545470$@rainier66.com>
 <00a001da98c2$4c64e910$e52ebb30$@rainier66.com>
 <000e01da98c3$5ff509f0$1fdf1dd0$@rainier66.com>
 <000001da98c4$9e4bf140$dae3d3c0$@rainier66.com>
 <001101da98c8$b696aca0$23c405e0$@rainier66.com>
 <001201da98c8$f2e8b8b0$d8ba2a10$@rainier66.com>
 <001301da98c9$38817e70$a9847b50$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armheRSFqq_M1Z-t5ONV+3VzpERm05NB=bUk9DKBom++HxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004f01da9914$c9217660$5b646320$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQ05yWdt9r78z-nc_QJCF76phW_-AcVicnjjqb1oK1T4Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 27, 2024, 10:38?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> It reminded me of the first DARPA Grand Challenge in 2004, where every
> damn thing went wrong.  They all looked stupid.
>
> But a year later, a bunch of them did not suck at all.
>

I have to wonder why, 20 years later, serious entrants to such races still
have these issues.  Should there not be well-tested software stacks, either
publicly available or possessed by those who enter many such races, that
are at least capable of competently navigating a race track?

>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Apr 29 11:08:56 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2024 12:08:56 +0100
Subject: [ExI] AI Hallucinations
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnAhDwpzo7DSy7XWnjBFTUcjSW7j3-iOrusC+Kcfb8jF1Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnAhDwpzo7DSy7XWnjBFTUcjSW7j3-iOrusC+Kcfb8jF1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjQfvnYEUewKsWEEyDDUDpuERhzxdNPjckua81PkKB-=g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 27 Apr 2024 at 16:49, Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> In our conversations regarding Tikopia, and Jared Diamond in general,
> it seems that we are running into a fairly large number of AI
> hallucinations. Bill said "llama-3 quotes book and page number
> references, so it may be more reliable." This particular form of
> hallucination is, unfortunately, at this time extremely common for
> LLMs. In many cases, I have found such references to refer to
> articles, books and scientific journals that sometimes DON'T EVEN
> EXIST. When an LLM says something, it wants to sound authoritative.
> Just as Jared Diamond wanted to sound authoritative when writing his
> books. What is happening in both cases is similar to the six year old
> know-it-all who will make up stuff to win an argument. Personally, I
> went through a period earlier in life where I repeated things I'd
> heard as if they were true. While not actually intentionally lying, I
> gave credence to things I shouldn't have without further research. I
> believe that AIs are at this stage of development. So, I would caution
> all of us to actually make sure referenced materials actually exist
> when referred to by the know-it-all AIs of our day. I am encouraged by
> work going on in the AI community to double check such statements
> coming out of LLMs, and I'm quite certain that this is a short term
> problem. Nevertheless, it's a big concern for the current AI models.
>
> This leads me to another semi-random thought... We've always tried to
> maintain a history of what we've done as humans over the millenia. We
> have backups, but they become increasingly difficult to retrieve after
> time. This seems like a particularly difficult thing to do with
> today's generative AIs... I don't think future researchers will be
> able to interact with our LLMs very easily since they are cloud based
> and expensive to maintain just for futuristic anthropologists and
> computer scientists. While I don't think this is an existential threat
> or anything, it is interesting, to me at least. LOL
>
> -Kelly
> _______________________________________________


Yes, I have read of a case where lawyers that used LLMs in preparation
ended up quoting fictitious cases and decisions to the judge.

I recommend using a search engine like DuckDuckGo to attempt to find
evidence to support claims made by an LLM.

Re the Tikopia discussion, I found some support for the LLMs claims.
For example -
<https://ethicsofsuicide.lib.utah.edu/tradition/indigenous-cultures/oceanic-cultures/solomon-islands4/>
SOLOMON ISLANDS
#4 Tikopian Attitudes Towards Suicide
     (Raymond Firth, 1967)

and
<https://www.researchgate.net/publication/350101339_%27The_Natives_Freely_Spoke_of_the_Custom%27_Sex-Selective_Infanticide_and_Maori_Depopulation_1815-58>

?The Natives Freely Spoke of the Custom?: Sex-Selective Infanticide
and M?ori Depopulation, 1815?58
March 2021      The Journal of Pacific History 56(1):1-24
DOI:10.1080/00223344.2021.1882838
Authors:   Simon Chapple.
-------------------

BillK


From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Apr 29 12:57:54 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2024 13:57:54 +0100
Subject: [ExI] AI and scams
Message-ID: <CAL_armghJXbmz_ncvq6ga_xD0gzqTZaxy7XUZr-1U-4DbbwEiw@mail.gmail.com>

AI-Fueled Scams
Published by Steven Novella Apr 29 2024

Digital life is getting more dangerous.

<https://theness.com/neurologicablog/ai-fueled-scams/>
Quotes:
Literally every day I have to fend off attempts at scamming me in one
way or another. I get texts trying to lure me into responding. I get
e-mails hoping I will click a malicious link on a reflex. I get phone
calls from people warning me that I am being scammed, when in fact
they are just trying to scam me. I even get snail mail trying to con
me into sending in sensitive information. My social media feeds are
also full of fake news and ads. Some of this is just the evolution of
online scamming, but there has also been an uptick due artificial
intelligence (AI). It?s now easier for scammers to create lots of fake
content, and flood our digital space with traps and lures.
-----------------

AI can assist scammers, so it is about time AI was used to stop scams!

BillK


From dsunley at gmail.com  Mon Apr 29 14:28:12 2024
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2024 08:28:12 -0600
Subject: [ExI] AI Hallucinations
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjQfvnYEUewKsWEEyDDUDpuERhzxdNPjckua81PkKB-=g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnAhDwpzo7DSy7XWnjBFTUcjSW7j3-iOrusC+Kcfb8jF1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjQfvnYEUewKsWEEyDDUDpuERhzxdNPjckua81PkKB-=g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEptUkRHUe0LrABcSip926-MP62U63Rzt1Xo7EUtFEbXWsuGfQ@mail.gmail.com>

The very first time I tried to use ChatGPT, it was to try to find a book
from my childhood whose title, "Comparisons" made it very difficult to
Google.

The AI gave me highly specific answers about the book, it's authors, and
publishers that were plausible, confident, and completely made up.

On Mon, Apr 29, 2024, 8:16 AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Sat, 27 Apr 2024 at 16:49, Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > In our conversations regarding Tikopia, and Jared Diamond in general,
> > it seems that we are running into a fairly large number of AI
> > hallucinations. Bill said "llama-3 quotes book and page number
> > references, so it may be more reliable." This particular form of
> > hallucination is, unfortunately, at this time extremely common for
> > LLMs. In many cases, I have found such references to refer to
> > articles, books and scientific journals that sometimes DON'T EVEN
> > EXIST. When an LLM says something, it wants to sound authoritative.
> > Just as Jared Diamond wanted to sound authoritative when writing his
> > books. What is happening in both cases is similar to the six year old
> > know-it-all who will make up stuff to win an argument. Personally, I
> > went through a period earlier in life where I repeated things I'd
> > heard as if they were true. While not actually intentionally lying, I
> > gave credence to things I shouldn't have without further research. I
> > believe that AIs are at this stage of development. So, I would caution
> > all of us to actually make sure referenced materials actually exist
> > when referred to by the know-it-all AIs of our day. I am encouraged by
> > work going on in the AI community to double check such statements
> > coming out of LLMs, and I'm quite certain that this is a short term
> > problem. Nevertheless, it's a big concern for the current AI models.
> >
> > This leads me to another semi-random thought... We've always tried to
> > maintain a history of what we've done as humans over the millenia. We
> > have backups, but they become increasingly difficult to retrieve after
> > time. This seems like a particularly difficult thing to do with
> > today's generative AIs... I don't think future researchers will be
> > able to interact with our LLMs very easily since they are cloud based
> > and expensive to maintain just for futuristic anthropologists and
> > computer scientists. While I don't think this is an existential threat
> > or anything, it is interesting, to me at least. LOL
> >
> > -Kelly
> > _______________________________________________
>
>
> Yes, I have read of a case where lawyers that used LLMs in preparation
> ended up quoting fictitious cases and decisions to the judge.
>
> I recommend using a search engine like DuckDuckGo to attempt to find
> evidence to support claims made by an LLM.
>
> Re the Tikopia discussion, I found some support for the LLMs claims.
> For example -
> <
> https://ethicsofsuicide.lib.utah.edu/tradition/indigenous-cultures/oceanic-cultures/solomon-islands4/
> >
> SOLOMON ISLANDS
> #4 Tikopian Attitudes Towards Suicide
>      (Raymond Firth, 1967)
>
> and
> <
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/350101339_%27The_Natives_Freely_Spoke_of_the_Custom%27_Sex-Selective_Infanticide_and_Maori_Depopulation_1815-58
> >
>
> ?The Natives Freely Spoke of the Custom?: Sex-Selective Infanticide
> and M?ori Depopulation, 1815?58
> March 2021      The Journal of Pacific History 56(1):1-24
> DOI:10.1080/00223344.2021.1882838
> Authors:   Simon Chapple.
> -------------------
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Apr 29 15:46:21 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2024 08:46:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] jane street, and also,
 congress calls on columbia university protestors...
Message-ID: <005301da9a4c$625fd2d0$271f7870$@rainier66.com>

 

.to give away money.  They started asking them to go away, now they want
them to pay money:  

 



 

Hey cool, I will sashay on over to Columbia and collect some funds.

 

On a completely different topic: have we anyone here who is up to speed on
Jane Street Capital?  Something happened here Saturday, and I really need a
trusted hipster to help me understand please.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Mon Apr 29 16:55:12 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2024 09:55:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] AI computers and power in space
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7_F9HHw07d5NRzfWXG--piZ91p=6qFh-BTALgpQ0WA+A@mail.gmail.com>

John Clark posted:

Apr 28, 2024, 4:54?AM (1 day ago)

to extropolis, 'Brent Explore this gift article from The New York
Times. You can read it for free without a subscription.

In Race to Build A.I., Tech Plans a Big Plumbing Upgrade

The spending that the industry?s giants expect artificial intelligence
to require is starting to come into focus ? and it is jarringly large.

^^^^^^

My work on thermal power satellites got the estimated cost down to 3
cents per kWh.  Without the 50% transmission loss, 1.5 cents per kWh
is possible.  In addition to the huge radiator area, heeded for the
power generation, it would require around half again as much area to
get rid of the computation heat.  On the other hand, the design does
not need a power transmission antenna.  Further, it could be placed in
an orbit lower than GEO inclined more than 23 deg to avoid the shadow
of the Earth and the thermal shock from the shadow.

Thermal radiators are arranged as pairs of tapered plastic tubes
filled with 20 deg C condensing steam.  The tubes make a planer
surface facing solar north/south and shaded from the sun.
Concentrator mirrors focus sunlight into boilers or PV.  Power
generation and computation would happen at the ends of the tube pairs.
There is an animation of a 1.5 GW radiator about 4:30 into
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEkZkINrJaA  That may be larger than
any data center on earth.

Data centers are already generating a fair amount of NIMBY pushback.
This is a way to push computation off Earth.

There is an extremely speculative safety reason to move AI off Earth.
If the AIs ever went rogue and were already in space, they might leave
planetary surfaces deep in gravity wells alone.

Keith


From jasonresch at gmail.com  Mon Apr 29 17:48:05 2024
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2024 13:48:05 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Open Individualism
In-Reply-To: <CA+BCJUjsUSVjXeH2Fh8rCJpPHDwVaPB7FiZ2vmzLwzwO=a5ywA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.18.1705852952.9638.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <44950416-b789-408e-ba80-b45303f7236f@zaiboc.net>
 <CA+BCJUjsUSVjXeH2Fh8rCJpPHDwVaPB7FiZ2vmzLwzwO=a5ywA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+BCJUh+486T9XeQHS2DR5i_bMkYqgmR6T0-m5mrEk-=FrPT6Q@mail.gmail.com>

Arnold Zuboff, the academic who first published on the idea of open
individualism, which he calls "universalism" provided the following
argument for why universalism is preferable to both the usual view, as well
as "empty individualism" or what Zuboff calls "super-insulating buddhism".
To accompany this argument, he also provides two documents that go into
further detail (which are linked here
<https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Upyq9_iiDCpTXbg9ePi-6MQLkbdP6f6m/view?usp=sharing>
and here
<https://docs.google.com/document/d/17T8HAus6yjlBYPCwgtrT2z7j7U485MEA/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=109779696990142678208&rtpof=true&sd=true>
).

PARSIMONY



*10. What do the two views have going for them?*



I believe that the usual view has nothing at all to be said for it. Once
the two views are laid out together, there is not even one argument I can
think of that would favour the usual view. (There are, however, powerful
and, indeed, decisive arguments for the truth of universalism. You will see
most of those I?ve thought of presented in this work.)



But what certainly does *seem* to tell in favour of the usual view is the
powerful impression we all have that can seem to be simply of its truth?the
impression, which we are predicted to have by universalism, that the extent
of my experience is limited by the identity of a single thing. I have
described this impression as hiding the truth of universalism. But it does
more than that: It hides even the very possibility that there could be any
rival to the usual view.



Yet, since the impression itself is predicted within universalism, it
cannot have any value at all as evidence for deciding between universalism
and the usual view.



*11. The rising of the sun*



The powerful initial impression that the sun is revolving once daily around
the earth, which gave us the terms ?sunrise? and ?sunset?, is exactly what
the opposing view that the earth is rotating once daily would predict and
can be no evidence at all in deciding between those views.



Wittgenstein once asked a friend why it was initially assumed that the sun
went around the earth. When the friend replied that it just looks that way,
Wittgenstein then asked what it would look like if it looked as though the
earth was rotating. The impression, he was pointing out with his second
question, is not in itself really of the truth of one of those views or the
other.



This ignores, however, that before the impression could strike one as other
than that of a motion of the sun, further sophistication was required?the
knowledge that the earth was spherical, that we were stuck to it by gravity
pulling us towards its centre and that we would not be feeling its rotation.



And before I can see the confined impression I have of the immediacy of my
experience as the impression of merely a lack of integration of experience
that is all mine and not an impression of a limitation of what I am, I
need, among other things, to disabuse myself of that illusory thought that
makes brain bisection paradoxical?the thought that I can?t be someone who
is at this objective moment of time experiencing anything different from
this content. I need the insight that I called ?the irrelevance of
objective simultaneity?. Thinking that objectively simultaneous contents of
experience could not be mine without them being integrated is very much
like thinking that the spinning of the earth could not be occurring without
my feeling it. Both are na?ve conflations of what is objectively true with
what is subjectively felt.



Anyway, the sunrise impression becomes neutral with further knowledge. It
turns out to be no evidence at all to decide between either view about the
sun and the earth. And, of course, once it is accepted that we are
attracted to the centre of a rotating spherical planet there is nothing at
all left to be said for the theory that our impression of the sun?s rising
is caused by an actual rising of the sun rather than the spinning of the
earth.



*12. Ockham?s razor*



But it is even worse than that for the usual view of what I am. The usual
view is not really giving us one of two explanations of the impression that
initially inspired belief in it, as would be the view that the sun actually
rises if the earth were flat and motionless.



This worse problem for the usual view is that the lack of integration of
mental contents is just as much there in the usual view as it is in
universalism to explain the impression of my supposedly being only one
thing. My *actually* being only one thing?the claim that is distinctive of
the usual view?is therefore doing no work within the usual view itself to
explain the impression that is being pointed to as the great evidence for
it.



It is as though a spinning of the earth was somehow already present and
fully accounting for the impression of the sunrise even in the original
theory of the sunrise.



The impression in a brain hemisphere of at this moment of objective time
being someone with only the experience of a concert or only the experience
of studying need not *even in the ordinary view* be caused by actually
being only the person experiencing the one or the other. For the very same
impression would even in the ordinary view have been caused anyway by the
failure of integration across the hemispheres.



Note carefully the contrast with the old sunrise theory: In that old theory
it would indeed have had to be the sun actually rising that gave such an
impression with the earth being flat and stationary. The sun?s actual
motion of rising would be doing that work within that theory. The actual
motion of the sun would be needed within that theory to explain the
evidence?the impression of a sunrise.



Ockham?s razor is the requirement of rational theory-making that no
elements should be present in the theory that are not called for by the
evidence. Evidence only supports that which is needed to explain it.



And so, this idle claim, that I actually am only one thing, ought to be cut
out of even the usual view by Ockham?s razor, which would leave us with the
simpler view, universalism.



Experience being mine is explained by immediacy, and the impression of
limitation comes merely through the lack of integration of the contents of
my experience. No further explanation is required or even possible. A
distinction of persons would be redundant.



*13. An electronic corpus callosum*

It may help to make clearer how lack of integration and not the
distinctness of conscious things is all that is really behind the usual
view's distinction between me and you, if we imagine a science fiction
'electronic corpus callosum', as we'll call it, being installed in the
brains of the two of us. This clever device can integrate the activities of
both our brains through radio transmission. All experiences involving
either of us will be received and related together as equally first-person
(as happens in the integration of our hemispheres).



(I?m not expecting it to be easy to imagine in detail how the experiences
of two whole human bodies could be made to go along with each other as do
the experiences processed in two brain hemispheres connected by a natural
corpus callosum. But we shall roughly imagine that somehow or other the
sensations and control of, for example, four hands would be brought
together within something like the same perspective much as are the
sensations and control of two hands in the normal case. I cannot see any
principle standing in the way of this.)

How could the identities of the previously independent organisms have any
relevance to the identity of the resulting experiencer now that the
boundaries of integration of experiential content have been so thoroughly
breached? The organisms would still be distinct, but they would both be the
single me that was you.

And this helps to show that it was the lack of experiential integration and
not the distinctness of experiencing organisms that was really doing the
work in suggesting a distinctness of persons even within the usual view
itself.

Note that then dropping the electronic connection would be like brain
bisection and that all the experience would still be mine though it would
falsely seem to be split into mine and yours. (That is, each side of the
experiential content would seem to itself to be mine with the other being
yours.)

Next let's just develop this gadget into a grand electronic corpus callosum
integrating the experience of all conscious beings. All the content would
be equally mine, and with full integration it would be known throughout to
be mine. None of the organisms would deserve any singling out as me because
of their distinctness as organisms. And if, as in brain bisection, the
connection is dropped, it would all still be mine while falsely seeming to
belong to distinct subjects of experience.





1. Super-insulating Buddhism



Is universalism really the only easy game in town? Very much so.



There is a sort of view that departs from the usual view by going in the
opposite direction from universalism. The usual view imposes insulating
boundaries on who I am that confine me within the life of a single human
being. The rival view we shall now consider confines me to a much smaller
momentary existence that does not extend beyond the present moment of a
human being. And it thus makes my far more pinpointed existence even more
improbable than that I have on the usual view.



In a Buddhistic view any psychological process would be forging on through
a succession of non-continuous experiencers. At any point in this process
there would be an experiencer with its momentary pains and pleasures, but
it could have no non-illusory self-interest in any further accumulation of
experience as this would not belong to it?since not that subject but only
other momentary subjects would exist in any further experience. The
experience would belong to no continuing subject. Neither self-interest nor
other-interest (interest, that is, for the self-interests of others) would
be appropriate.



But notice that this radical and bleak view does not escape either the
conceptual or the statistical difficulties of the usual view of the person.
For each such momentary subject would have its own identity conditions
involving both a token and a type. There would arise the question of
whether this momentary subject would have existed if its identity
conditions had been divided or had been different by degree. And the
improbability for itself of existing of any of the momentary subjects would
make such a hypothesis statistically untenable just as it did the usual
view of the person. For in every moment of the ongoing mental process an
inference would be supported that from this momentary perspective the
existence of this momentary subject would be overwhelmingly improbable by
contrast with the existence of the universal subject in universalism.



4. A Humean bundle of perceptions



If the world contained nothing but a Humean bundle of perceptions, with no
thing as a subject possessing them, then those unpossessed perceptions,
purely on account of their inherent immediacy, would be mine and I would
therein be present in that world in the centrally important way.

What would I then be? I wouldn't be the perceptions themselves. I'd be a
fictional something from which the lines of vision were seeming to lead.
And even though nothing was really there in that world but the perceptions,
I would have full self-interest in diminishing any pains in the bundle and
be present in the world?merely because an experience was mine.

And if instead it was true that some sort of thing actually was there, from
which the lines of vision were leading, then that thing would be me, we
could say, but that would be at bottom incidental to my proper existence
and my personal experiential fate.

Furthermore, if that very same thing had been there but without any
potential of having experience that was mine, it could not in any way have
been me.



5. Naturalism (Derek Parfit?s view)



Consider a philosophical view about personal identity that I shall call
?naturalism?.



The naturalist sees that in the usual view there is an uneasy union of the
complex conditions of a particular body or mind with the simple conditions
of a subject of experience.



The naturalist sees the complex conditions as in themselves natural and
unproblematic but doesn?t see, as does the universalist, that the
indivisibility and all-or-nothing presence of the subject of experience are
also natural and unproblematic because they are simply features of the
natural quality of immediacy that permeates all experience and determines
personal identity.



The naturalist believes rather that only the positing of a supernatural
simple substance could satisfy these seemingly non-natural properties of a
person in the usual view and therefore proposes to purge the usual view?s
person of its non-natural component. And thus, for the naturalist, the
person?or what is left of the person?is *merely* a complex natural process.
A philosopher who, like Derek Parfit, thinks that what matters most in this
is a *mental* process, rather than the physical process of the body, could
be called a ?*psychological* naturalist?.[1]



Parfit readily admits that he is running counter to the usual view by
denying that a person?s existence is an all or nothing affair. If a
person?s existence, as Parfit claims, is determined by the reach of
connected memories and intentions, then this naturalistic identity, as
Parfit admits, may change by degree.



Hence, if a year from now a person carrying on from me has only a certain
fraction of the memories and intentions I have now, that person would be
only by that same fraction?s worth identifiable with me now. And the
strength of my appropriate self-interested concern with that person?s fate
presumably ought to be measured as this same fraction.



One great problem with this view is that it seems we must on *any* view
consider a person to be one and the same in all the integrated memories and
intentions existing *at a single time*. Thus, if some person existing a
year from now is to be identified *partially* with me because some of that
person?s memories and intentions carry on from mine now, since it must be
one and the same person in all the integrated memories and intentions *at
that time*, that person must also be identified *wholly* with me.



That person couldn?t be me in thinking something that would be familiar to
me now and at the same time be someone else in having an accompanying
thought that would not now be familiar to me. It seems rather, contrary to
Parfit?s contention, that either all or none of those thoughts in the later
stage will have to be mine.



Parfit tries to deal with cases of human fission, like brain bisection, by
dropping any claim that the resulting branches of a split are identical to
the original person and speaking instead of a ?survival? of the person in
both branches. This would be like a plant surviving in all the plants that
grew from its cuttings though it would not have been identical with any of
them.



But when we try to think of the significance of such survivals to the
original subject of experience, we find that the key question of future
self-interest is every bit as puzzling as when we were struggling with the
question of identity.



If one of your survivals was going to be dragged to a torture chamber and
the other escorted to a wonderful party, how ought you now to anticipate
such survivals? Will one, both or none of these two lines of experience be
immediate for you like your experience now? Surely only the answer to this
question can give us the proper basis for judgments of self-interest. And
this is the ineradicable question of the identity of the subject of
experience.



But Parfit claims that what is properly *important* to me is not personal
identity but rather merely the survival of my memories and intentions.
Let?s look at this claim.



Imagine I learned that all the pattern of brain traces on which my memories
and intentions depended would be recorded just as they were in the last
moment of mental soundness before my death and later imposed on what had
been somebody else?s brain in place of its previous such patterns. That
future person would then think just like me that ?this is me, Arnold Zuboff?.
But would that person be right in thinking that? Would this then actually
be me or would it be somebody else with memories just like mine, a sort of
engineered clairvoyant?



Notice that it *could* be important to me that my knowledge and intentions
be carried forward even if I think I am no longer to be in the world. Since
that future person will at least be a bearer of my projects, the
continuance of them in someone else could be important to me as might be
the carrying out of provisions in my last will and testament.



But the way in which my self-interest could be *relevantly* involved in
this case would have to be based on the additional factor of whether this
future person would be* me*.



For example, imagine that I could at some time prior to that death, whose
finality for me we are now trying to determine, hide away some of my wealth
where only that future person with my memory traces would know where to
find it. But, let us say, it would be a lot of trouble for me to do this
hiding of my wealth.



If I think of that future person as being *me*, I have the *relevant* kind
of self-interested reason for going to that trouble?that the future benefit
will, like the present trouble, be *mine*. The two experiential contents,
of trouble and benefit, will both come to *me* and the trouble for me may
thus be over-balanced by the benefit for me. (Of course, by the way,
universalism says I should have precisely such concern for all experience.)



If I think of that future person as another, however, any self-interested
concern that may remain cannot be of this relevant sort. I could be pleased
with the thought that this person will use that wealth to further causes in
which I am interested whether that person will be me or someone else. But I
cannot myself look forward to the pleasures that the wealth may bring that
person in the self-interested manner relevant to the issue of personal
identity if I do not believe that I will *be* that person. These are
vitally different ways in which a future can be important to me, but only
the latter is connected directly with the judgment about personal identity.



Now, intentions and memories and the carrying forward of projects are
important only because there are persons, subjects of experience and
self-interest, by whom they are experienced and for whom they have
consequences. If I care about others, I care about the self-interests of
others.



Furthermore, many things can be important to a subject of self-interest or
someone else concerned about that subject independent of continued
possession of any such memories or projects. It may be a goal of such a
project to provide comfort for such a subject at a time when current
memories and intentions will be lost, as in senility. If I became a victim
of nightmares in which the view of myself and the world was violently
altered, it could be of enormous importance to me or one concerned about me
that the terrors in those discontinuous episodes be lessened if that is
possible.



Carrying through with projects is important and being in the world as a
subject of experience is important; but that doesn?t make them the same
thing. And in a certain respect the more basic of the two is being a person
in the world. For projects without persons are meaningless.



Does it make any sense for Parfit to be calling ?persons? those beings
whose identities or survivals are conceived of by him as determined only by
the identities or survivals of their psychological processes?



We?ve already seen that the divisibility and changing by degree of such a
process would make an essential connection between it and a proper subject
of self-interest paradoxical. Perhaps the most consistent position like
Parfit?s would recognize itself as a straightforward rejection of both
continuing persons and continuing self-interest altogether (and Parfit
gestures sometimes at something like this radical solution). The view would
be that there really exist only natural processes, that these processes
embody an illusion that there are also, associated with them, continuing
indivisible, all-or-nothing subjects of experience and that only these
illusory, non-existent persons could be the proper subjects of
self-interest (or other-interest).



This bleak view, it seems to me, turns out to be equivalent to the
super-insulating Buddhistic view that I described earlier. There would,
after all, still be consciousness accompanying the process (insofar as it
was consciously carried on). There would therefore at each momentary stage
of the process be at any rate a momentary subject of experience and
self-interest, which would, for example, be that which was hurt if there
was pain. But there would be no such subject of experience and
self-interest somehow stretched out through the continued existence of the
process.



Anyway, whether Parfit tries still to identify a person with a continuing
process or lets the person fragment into momentary subjects of experience,
the improbability for itself of existing, either of the process-?person? or
of any of its momentary subjects, would make such a hypothesis
statistically untenable just as it did the unreconstructed usual view of a
person. For every moment an inference would be supported that the existence
of *this* momentary subject, or *this* process-person, was from its
perspective immensely improbable and should be given up in favour of the
existence of the universalist subject of experience.



[1] Here I am only addressing Parfit?s position in his early paper
?Personal Identity?.





Jason


On Mon, Jan 22, 2024 at 4:16?PM Jason Resch <jasonresch at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Jan 22, 2024 at 3:21?PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> On 21/01/2024 16:02, Jason Resch wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 21, 2024, 9:31 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     On 20/01/2024 15:11, Jason Resch wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>       where does one person begin and end? If someone steps into a
>>>       transporter that destroys their body and reconstructs it
>>>       elsewhere, do we draw a terminating border at one end and say the
>>>       person died here, and a new separate person began elsewhere? Or do
>>>       we draw the borders such that there is a continuous link bridging
>>>       then, such that it is all the same person, and the experiences of
>>>       the person who emerges on the other side of the teleporter, *are*
>>>       experiences that will be had by the person who stepped into the
>>>       transporter?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     Depends on what you need, and what point of view you adopt. There is
>>>     no single correct answer (which is not to say that there are no
>>>     answers).
>>>
>> It matters to the person stepping into the transporter, does it not? Are
>> you saying there is no scientifically establishable answer to this
>> question? Could not an experimentalist undergo the teleportation to
>> (hopefully) personally confirm his theory that his consciousness
>> survives?
>>
>>
>> Yes, of course. And if the person stepping into the transporter thinks
>> that his consciousness depends on the atoms of his brain (or an immaterial
>> 'soul' that is lost, etc.), the person stepping out of the other end will
>> believe that he is not the same person.
>>
>
> They might choose to label the previous copy a former self, but someone
> who is consciously experiencing something cannot believe that they are
> dead/not experiencing something. The consciousness, based on everything it
> knows and feels, would necessarily feel as though their consciousness
> survived the procedure, regardless of what they might say about their
> previous body.
>
>
>> There is a character in Charlie Stross' Accelerando in exactly this
>> position. No-one can convince him of their view that he is the same person,
>> despite his continuity of memory, etc.
>>
>
> That is interesting.
>
>
>> Can we say he's wrong? Only by asserting that a different way of looking
>> at things is the 'correct' one. Can he say that they are wrong? Ditto. Yes,
>> you can demonstrate that a mind survives replacement of the atoms in the
>> brain (or does it? Maybe it's a mind that's to similar to the original that
>> no-one else notices), but in the end, you have to choose a framework and
>> follow it through.
>>
>> Someone else may think that they are only partially the same person.
>>
>> Most would probably think that they are the same person (why would you
>> undergo the procedure otherwise, unless it was forced on you?)
>>
>> So, different points of view, different answers.
>>
>
> But all survivors of teleporters believe "I am alive and conscious", which
> is to me, the only meaningful definition of "survival." In other words, it
> would be inconsistent for the survivor to say "I am dead!" or "I am no
> longer conscious" -- unless the procedure did turn them into a zombie of
> some kind, but this would presumably require some form of dualism.
>
>
>> ...
>>
>>
>>>                               'The experiences' is just a label that we use in our
>>>                 heads so we can think about these things (remembering
>>>                 that the thoughts don't have to be true or accurate, or
>>>                 even make any kind of sense). It would be more accurate
>>>                 to say 'I experience', 'you experience'. Saying 'you *have*
>>>                 experience X' tempts us to think of X as a thing that is
>>>                 possessed (and could therefore also be possessed by
>>>                 someone else). It's not.
>>>
>>>         I agree they aren't swappable or tradable like playing cards. There is a tight kinky between each experience and a particular mind state.
>>
>>
>>     Not sure what a 'tight kinky' is. Presumably a typo, but I'm not
>>     sure what you meant to write. A tight link?
>> Yes "tight link".
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     I suppose you could say that, being careful to recognise that the
>>>     experience does not exist on its own, and is then 'linked' to the
>>>     mind. The experience is produced by the mind, so talking about a
>>>     'link' is unnecessary and potentially misleading.
>>>
>>>
>>>         That said, we acknowledge that for a given person (here I mean the common sense understanding of the term), has a life which spans and includes many different mind states, and many different experiences.
>>>
>>>         It is this many-to-one relationship that creates the problem of assignment.
>>>
>>>
>>>     I don't know what that last sentence means. What do you mean by
>>>     'assignment'. Assignment of what?
>>>
>> Experiences-to-person. Or using your terminology: mind_states-to-person.
>>
>> I thought we'd agreed on the unique nature of experiences. You can't
>> 'assign' an experience to the thing that generates it. They are
>> inextricably and uniquely linked, and no other person can experience the
>> same thing. So there is no 'problem of assignment'. That is meaningless.
>>
>>
>>>     Again, I take issue with the language used as well. A person doesn't
>>>     really 'have' a life which includes many different mind-states. I'd
>>>     rather say a person consists of many different mind-states. If those
>>>     didn't exist, there would be no person.
>>>
>>>
>>>     This is the same difficulty caused by the common habit of referring
>>>     to 'our minds'. We don't *have* minds (which implies a duality), we *are* minds.
>>>
>> If each of us are minds, and each mind can have many states, which set of possible mind states can one be or become?
>>
>> The set of mind-states that are available to that mind. It will vary,
>> depending on things like personal history, the details of neural structure,
>> chemistry, all kinds of things. I'd say that it's impossible to predict, in
>> practice.
>>
>> Is there any theoretical or fundamental limit?
>>
>> I have no idea how you'd determine that. There must be limits, though. No
>> human will ever know what it's like to be a Bat, to take one famous example.
>>
>
> I don't see why we could not gradually morph someone's brain into that of
> a bat, using advanced nanotechnology, for example.
>
>
>> But I also think that nobody except Jonh Smith will experience the same
>> things as him upon eating the same sandwich on the same day in the same
>> place. So I'd say that one limit is that you can only experience your own
>> unique experiences, not anyone else's.
>>
>
> If there are no fundamental limits on how John Smith's brain can be
> perturbed over time, there's no limit to what experiences John Smith is
> capable of.
>
>
>> ...
>>>
>>> How much perturbation can be tolerated before we say, "that's no longer the same, or that person is dead" ?
>>>
>>>
>>>     This is a philosophical question, with different answers depending
>>>     on your assumptions.
>>>
>> You can leave them as a philosophical questions, or as I prefer to do, you
>> can turn them into a hard empirical questions, with definite yes/no
>> answers, by asking and testing things like:
>> Does my conscious survive radical brain surgery?
>> Does my conscious survive gradual replacement of material?
>> Does my conscious survive instantaneous replacement of material (e.g. in a teleporter)?
>> Does my conscious survive the accumulation of memories over a lifetime?
>> Does my conscious survive loss of memories in the decline of senility?
>> Does my conscious survive about changes in memory content (e.g. partial amnesia, implantation of false memories (as in Total Recall))?
>>
>> No you can't, as I keep saying. Those questions can have different
>> answers, depending on who's asking them and what their point of view is.
>>
>
> As I've said repeatedly, such questions are always asked/interpreted from
> the perspective/POV of the person undergoing the procedure, who receives
> empirical confirmation afterwards.
>
>
>> The thing you don't seem to acknowledge is that these are subjective
>> matters, not objective ones. They have to be, as we are dealing with the
>> very phenomenon at the heart of subjectivity.
>>
>>     To me, the mind is the important thing, and the mind is an embodied
>>>     dynamic pattern of information. How much can that pattern change,
>>>     and still claim to be 'the same person'? I don't have any single
>>>     fixed answer. But you could take the attitude that I'm the same
>>>     person that I was since I was born (because of a common genome,
>>>     continuity of physical body, etc. My mind didn't even exist then,
>>>     really, so I don't subscribe to that view. I'd say that I didn't
>>>     exist yet), or you could say that I'm a different person each day,
>>>     or even from moment to moment. I don't really care.
>>>
>> You can say you don't care, but then ask yourself: why save for retirement
>> all your life if you are only to give all that money away to some old
>> rich guy in the future who isn't you? -- (at least it won't be you if
>> you really believed you're a different person each day).
>>
>> Precisely. If that's what I believe, that's perfectly correct.
>>
>
> Find me the person who believes that, and decides not to save for
> retirement because of that belief (that is, anyone who truly believes, and
> lives their life according to the belief, that they are only a
> single-thought moment). I doubt such people exist. Neither decision theory,
> nor science itself, can operate if you remove the concept of future
> expectation.
>
>
>>  If I feel that I'm the same person, then I am.
>>>
>> Yes, this is how I defined survival, by the subjective feeling that ones consciousness has continued into another moment.
>>
>>>  There's a sense in which I am the same person that I was a few decades ago, and a sense in which I'm a different person to who I was when I started writing this email.
>>>
>> Note that here you are using two different definitions of person.
>>
>> Exactly! And two different people can hold two different definitions to
>> be true. They are both correct.
>>
>
> Assuming neither one leads to inconsistencies, or makes
> untestable/unfounded assumptions.
>
> I'll reiterate, the inconsistencies do not appear in the definitions
> themselves. The definitions can be written down and they all seem perfectly
> fine. The issues arise when we attempt to use these different definitions
> to answer questions with objective answers (e.g. do I survive this or not)?
>
>
>>  What philosophers of personal identity attempt is to clearly define each and
>> then test whether those definitions are consistent/valid in all
>> situations.
>>
>> You're basically proposing to 'test' people's points of view. This is
>> like trying to decide which is right, the guy who says "that car is blue"
>> or the one who says "that car is turquoise".
>> Which is the 'correct' interpretation of the story of Bambi, is it about
>> cruelty or sadness?
>>
>
> These aren't testing points of view. They are tests of the logical
> consistency of theories. As well as evaluating them on probabilistic
> grounds, and for unfounded metaphysical assumptions (e.g. Occam's razor).
> The only time subjectivity enters the picture is in the experiments to test
> whether one's consciousness subjectively survives (e.g. a teleporter, a
> surgery, a mind upload, or any other procedure).
>
>
>> Of course, this is why we call it 'philosophy'. If there were any
>> objectively testable and definite answers, we'd call it 'science'.
>>
>
> If you believe there are no objective tests favoring one theory vs.
> another, am I correct that you believe open individualism is a possibility
> you can neither prove nor disprove?
> If not, then you must think it makes some different predictions from the
> others which we could objectively test. What would those tests be?
>
>
>>     Again, no single 'correct' answer. There are as many answers as you
>>>     can think up different ways of looking at it.
>>>
>> If you examine deeply what certain answers imply, I believe you will find
>> the number of possibly correct answers, is a very small set.
>>
>> Again with the 'correct'. There is no 'correct'!
>> Consider this: What is happening on planet X of star Y in the Andromeda
>> galaxy, RIGHT NOW? (i.e. at the exact moment that you are reading this).
>>
>
> For the Andromeda case, I would say we exist in an infinite number of
> subjectively indistinguishable possibilities, each consistent with
> everything we know.
>
> "It is impossible for any observer to deduce with certainty on the basis
> of her observations and memory which world she is a part of. That is, there
> are always many different worlds for which being contained in them is
> compatible with everything she knows, but which imply different predictions
> for future observations."
> -- Markus M?ller in ?Could the physical world be emergent instead of
> fundamental, and why should we ask?
> <https://arxiv.org/pdf/1712.01826v1.pdf>? (2017)
>
> But the indeterminacy of the far away and unmeasurable, is different from
> your supposition that different theories of personal identity could all be
> right. As I showed below, different theories of personal identity provide
> different answers to the same questions regarding the same situation.
> Therefore they cannot all be objectively correct. If there is such a thing
> as objective truth and an objective reality, then at least some of these
> theories must be wrong (at least in such cases where they give different
> answers).
>
>
>>
>>>     I can't say for sure, but I suspect that the experience of [anything
>>>     you like] is different as my mind changes over time. That each
>>>     experience is unique not only to a mind, but to a mind at a specific
>>>     time. It could be that someone's experience of eating a cheese
>>>     sandwich on a rainy afternoon in March 2019 is different to the same
>>>     person's experience of the same thing in the same place, on a rainy
>>>     afternoon in March 2029. Actually, thinking about it, I'd be
>>>     surprised if this wasn't true.
>>>
>> An uploaded mind cannot access the true time outside the simulation. If
>> you run the mind simulation twice at two different times, there's no
>> room for the mind to know anything was different between the two runs,
>> unless you introduce something metaphysical.
>> But if your point is that brains are messy things and always changing, I see and agree with that point.
>>
>> My point is that experiences are unique. Not only to the minds generating
>> them, but quite probably to each instance of 'the same' experience (meaning
>> that they aren't in fact the same at all. The uniqueness is absolute). This
>> means there is no such thing as two people having the same experience, or a
>> common pool of experiences that can be 'had' by a number of different
>> people.
>>
>> Which brings me back to:
>>
>>
>>>>                 So the way I see it, this whole concept of 'theories of
>>>>                 personal identity' is built on a misconception of the
>>>>                 nature of 'experiences'.
>>>>
>>>         To this I would say, and I hope it clarifies, that personal identity isn't so much trying to answer "should
>>>           put this frog in that bucket or this one?", but rather, it is
>>>           about trying to define the borders of the buckets themselves.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     My point was that the frogs in buckets analogy doesn't apply.
>>>
>> Earlier, you said: "a person consists of many different mind-states"
>> So then, why cannot we label the collection of mind-states which a particular person consists of?
>>
>> We can, and do. We label it "a person".
>>
>>         What circumstances are necessary for a person to arise, survive, or die, etc.
>>>
>>>         There are easy, conventional answers to such questions, based on the presence or maintenance of some attribute.
>>>
>>>         But I think if you seriously consider the
>>>           problems that arise in those cases you will understand the
>>>           difficulties of the conventional view and it's inability to
>>>           handle a host of situations.
>>>
>>>         In the end, belief in the necessity of some
>>>           attribute that is needed for "you to be you" is both unfounded
>>>           and uneccessary. It's a purely metaphysical assumption which
>>>           Occam would remind us to dispense with.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     You're assuming that being able to use different attributes,
>>>     according to what you find important, is equivalent to not using
>>>     any. The fact that there may be 10 different paths to get from where
>>>     you are to where you want to go, doesn't mean that you don't need
>>>     any path at all. Some attribute *is* necessary,
>>>
>> The only attribute that is necessary is the "immediacy of experience" --
>> the feeling that it is *I* who is having the experience". You can remove
>>  everything else and people will believe they have survived to live in
>> that moment.
>> Note that this attribute is equally present in all experiences. All experiences feel like it is I who is having them.
>>
>> All of *your* experiences. And all of mine feel like mine. This is
>> hardly a revelation.
>>
>
> If you think about this a little more deeply, you may discover that all
> experiences, as felt by all beings, feel like "mine".
>
> This is really saying nothing more than all beings consider them to exist
> in the time "now", or the place "here." There is a relativity involved,
> that generates the illusion of a selection (that some time is privileged to
> be now), or that some organisim's neurology is privileged to be "you".
>
> This passage, from Nagel in "Physicalism
> <https://philpapers.org/rec/NAGP-2>" (1965) may help to dispel this
> illusion by shedding some more light on the issue:
>
> "Consider everything that can be said about the world without employing
> any token reflexive
> expressions. This will include the description of all its physical
> contents and their states, activities
> and attributes. It will also include a description of all the persons in
> the world and their histories,
> memories, thoughts, sensations, perceptions, intentions, and so forth. I
> can thus describe without
> token-reflexives the entire world and everything that is happening in
> it?and this will include a
> description of Thomas Nagel and what he is thinking and feeling. But there
> seems to remain one
> thing which I cannot say in this fashion?namely, which of the various
> persons in the world I am.
> Even when everything that can be said in the specified manner has been
> said, and the world has in a
> sense been completely described, there seems to remain one fact which has
> not been expressed, and
> that is the fact that I am Thomas Nagel. This is not, of course, the fact
> ordinarily conveyed by those
> words, when they are used to inform someone else who the speaker is?for
> that could easily be
> expressed otherwise. It is rather the fact that I am the subject of these
> experiences; this body is my
> body; the subject or center of my world is this person."
>
> This passage shows that when we examine it, we find no physical fact or
> reason to account for the idea that consciousness is limited to a single
> perspective of a single biological creature which is you.
> You could equally be present in all the conscious beings, and each
> instance would suffer the illusion that it is only one biological creature
> (as that is the only thing each can remember).
>
>
>
> but there are
>>>     many choices, depending on your point of view and what you want to
>>>     achieve. The conventional view (that there is one correct answer)
>>>     just needs to be widened to acknowledge that there are many correct
>>>     answers, all valid, that do cover a host of situations.
>>>
>> They only seem valid, until you investigate them more deeply. If you say
>> memory is important, why don't we have funerals form people when they
>> get concussed and forget the past 15 minutes? If you say material is
>> important, why don't we have funerals for people every 7 years when all
>> their atoms are replaced? If you say continuity of a mind process is
>> necessary, why don't we have funerals when someone gets general
>> anesthesia and we shut down that process?
>> The answer is, because all generally acknowledge and feel that our
>> consciousness survives all these things. Our consciousness can survive
>> material replacement of our body and brain, it survives gain and loss of
>>  memories, and it survives discontinuities like general anesthesia and
>> comas. None of these can therefore be the critical attribute for a
>> person's survival.
>>
>> Because we don't all agree on the same criteria for survival?
>> I expect that if everyone agreed that 15 minutes of amnesia qualifies as
>> death, then we would hold funerals (and probably celebrate the birth of a
>> new person on the 16th minute).
>> The definition of death changes as time goes by, and we learn more and
>> our technology advances, which just widens our choices. Some people regard
>> those who are cryogenically suspended to be irrevocably dead, and some
>> don't, for example.
>>
>
> I agree it changes. It changes as new technology expands the scope of
> recoverable situations. If we can build an ultimate healing technology,
> which can heal someone of any wound, even an explosion that blasted them
> into a 1,000 pieces, then we would understand death to only be the result
> of irrecoverable data loss. So long as we had the information necessary to
> restore a person using this healing technology, then any injury would be
> survivable. We could then ask: what if we had the information, but not all
> the original parts. Could we use any old spare atoms to heal the person,
> and restore them to life? Would it be the same person? Technological
> improvements will necessarily lead us to expand and revise the notion of
> personhood, just as it has and will continue to expand the scope of
> survivability, and the border between life and death.
>
>
>>
>>
>>>     Consider planetary motion. What gives the correct answer, Kepler's
>>>     laws or Relativity?
>>>
>> Here you compare two theories which provide the same predictions.
>>
>> For many things, but not all.
>>
>> Different theories of personal identity offer different answers to the same question. For example:
>> Teleporter survival:
>> Bodily continuity - no
>> Psychological continuity - yes
>> Memory loss survival:
>> Bodily continuity - yes
>> Psychological continuity - no
>> Faulty transporter survival:
>> Bodily continuity - no
>> Psychological continuity - no
>> Open individualism - yes
>>
>> So if the transporter is faulty and no body materialises, so of course no
>> brain, and therefore no mind, you're saying that the individual
>> nevertheless 'survives'??
>> So basically, nobody has ever died?
>> Pictures, please.
>>
>
> The faulty transporter is an example where there is a new body, but some
> memories are lost or inserted (changed). So it combines  the aspects of
> teleporter survival, and memory loss survival. Each continuity theory would
> find something necessary was lost, and therefore conclude that the person
> did not survive.
>
>
>>
>>>     I still don't see any reason to assume that there's some kind of
>>>     mental connection between myself and that Maori dude 200 years ago.
>>>     Or anybody else.
>>>
>> It's not a mental connection. It's an identity of personhood.
>>
>> There's no such thing (between two individuals). You are the only thing
>> that is identical to you.
>>
>
> I think this may be inconsistent with your agreement above that a person
> is a collection of mind-states. Each mind state is different. How then do
> we decide to put them into a particular collection which we call "one
> person?"
> What is it about the mind states that makes them belong to one person and
> not another?
>
> Jason
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Apr 29 19:57:54 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2024 20:57:54 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Neuromorphic computing
Message-ID: <CAL_armi0G0YsGZUv=mdLYrv-1oA4gcBhV26M+i7-SuL+qDS3KQ@mail.gmail.com>

'Inspired by the human brain': Intel debuts neuromorphic system that
aims to mimic grey matter with a clear aim ? making the machine
exponentially faster and much more power efficient, just like us

By Wayne Williams    published 27 April 2024

<https://www.techradar.com/pro/inspired-by-the-human-brain-intel-debuts-neuromorphic-system-that-aims-to-mimic-grey-matter-with-a-clear-aim-making-the-machine-exponentially-faster-and-much-more-power-efficient-just-like-us>

Quote:
Hala Point boasts 1.15 billion artificial neurons.
Neuromorphic computing is about mimicking the human brain's structure
to deliver more efficient data processing, including faster speeds and
higher accuracy, and it?s a hot topic right now. A lot of universities
and tech firms are working on it, including scientists at Intel who
have built the world?s largest ?brain-based? computing system for
Sandia National Laboratories in New Mexico.
-----------------------

BillK


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Mon Apr 29 21:21:00 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2024 14:21:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] AI computers and power in space
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7_F9HHw07d5NRzfWXG--piZ91p=6qFh-BTALgpQ0WA+A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7_F9HHw07d5NRzfWXG--piZ91p=6qFh-BTALgpQ0WA+A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB43O5CU5dL7ZP1xVUzhhBapQ6LN8yN0V+UXMChKELZboA@mail.gmail.com>

BTW, Keith Lofstrom talked about a variation on this idea some years
ago.  Should have mentioned that.

Keith

On Mon, Apr 29, 2024 at 9:55?AM Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> John Clark posted:
>
> Apr 28, 2024, 4:54?AM (1 day ago)
>
> to extropolis, 'Brent Explore this gift article from The New York
> Times. You can read it for free without a subscription.
>
> In Race to Build A.I., Tech Plans a Big Plumbing Upgrade
>
> The spending that the industry?s giants expect artificial intelligence
> to require is starting to come into focus ? and it is jarringly large.
>
> ^^^^^^
>
> My work on thermal power satellites got the estimated cost down to 3
> cents per kWh.  Without the 50% transmission loss, 1.5 cents per kWh
> is possible.  In addition to the huge radiator area, heeded for the
> power generation, it would require around half again as much area to
> get rid of the computation heat.  On the other hand, the design does
> not need a power transmission antenna.  Further, it could be placed in
> an orbit lower than GEO inclined more than 23 deg to avoid the shadow
> of the Earth and the thermal shock from the shadow.
>
> Thermal radiators are arranged as pairs of tapered plastic tubes
> filled with 20 deg C condensing steam.  The tubes make a planer
> surface facing solar north/south and shaded from the sun.
> Concentrator mirrors focus sunlight into boilers or PV.  Power
> generation and computation would happen at the ends of the tube pairs.
> There is an animation of a 1.5 GW radiator about 4:30 into
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEkZkINrJaA  That may be larger than
> any data center on earth.
>
> Data centers are already generating a fair amount of NIMBY pushback.
> This is a way to push computation off Earth.
>
> There is an extremely speculative safety reason to move AI off Earth.
> If the AIs ever went rogue and were already in space, they might leave
> planetary surfaces deep in gravity wells alone.
>
> Keith


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Mon Apr 29 23:37:13 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2024 16:37:13 -0700
Subject: [ExI] AI computers and power in space
In-Reply-To: <20240429221248.GA25574@gate.kl-ic.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7_F9HHw07d5NRzfWXG--piZ91p=6qFh-BTALgpQ0WA+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20240429221248.GA25574@gate.kl-ic.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7X6YHVaH+5xmY6itseqxVX+TUaJ=yg+hiY=mqzbFkovw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 29, 2024 at 3:17?PM Keith Lofstrom <keithl at keithl.com> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Apr 29, 2024 at 09:55:12AM -0700, Keith Henson wrote:
> ... (John Clarke?)...
> > The spending that the industry?s giants expect artificial intelligence
>
> ....
> > Data centers are already generating a fair amount of NIMBY pushback.
> > This is a way to push computation off Earth.
> ....
> http://server-sky.com
>
> I've worked on "computation off Earth" for years, about
> a dozen conference presentations and journal papers.

Server Sky may be a better approach, but the reason I am proposing
something much like a conventional data center is that Server Sky
combines too many difficult concepts at once.  Even this proposal is
probably a bridge too far.  However, there are people (Musk) with a
foot in AI and space.

snip

> L1-AI will help in more important ways.  The substrates will
> use vast amounts of aluminum.  There's plenty of aluminum oxide
> in lunar regolith - but no carbon to reduce that oxide to
> metal.  VAST thinsat manufacturing systems will produce
> teratonnes of lunar-sourced aluminum, but will need to import
> gigatonnes of carbon to cycle through the manufacturing process.

If you are using the Hall process, the main input is electrical power.
The carbon electrodes do burn up making CO2.  But that can be reduced
to carbon with hydrogen and the hydrogen regenerated by electrolysis.

snip

KeithH


From giulio at gmail.com  Tue Apr 30 06:57:47 2024
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2024 08:57:47 +0200
Subject: [ExI] My recent talk on space expansion
Message-ID: <CAKTCJye0V2cUZv74N+3PQA6t-ySXFsr_P+crxVm6x7_yL9b5NA@mail.gmail.com>

Space Renaissance talk: space expansion. Cultural considerations, long
term perspectives, and spiritual implications.
https://www.turingchurch.com/p/space-renaissance-talk-space-expansion

From ben at zaiboc.net  Tue Apr 30 12:21:24 2024
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2024 13:21:24 +0100
Subject: [ExI] AI and scams
In-Reply-To: <mailman.5.1714412973.141.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.5.1714412973.141.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <f7b3dd23-d405-4573-9d4a-aa857a5c3082@zaiboc.net>

[ExI] AI and scams

> Digital life is getting more dangerous


Authoritarian governments are threatened by the free flow of 
information, so they have a vested interest in combatting it. One way to 
do that is to create a walled garden, but everyone knows that has 
limited effectiveness. A better way is to make people distrust what they 
see, by creating floods of false and confusing information. This is 
obvious in some cases, but I would be very surprised if there weren't a 
lot of covert operations around the world creating and spreading 
disinformation that gets more and more subtle and difficult to detect as 
time goes on. That then makes it easy to brand genuine information (that 
a regime wants to censor or suppress) as disinformation too.

This seems to even spread to scientific papers. There has been a flood 
of recent cases of papers that were obviously written by AI systems, 
with the attendant problems, often with blatant clues to their origin, 
creating doubt about their accuracy or validity.

If a regime is 'anti-science', what better way than this to discredit 
science and muddy the waters? It's cheap and easy, and can be done on a 
massive scale. It threatens the backbone of international scientific 
co-operation.

These things are much more worrying than national 'firewalls', as they 
affect the whole world.

I don't see any good way to combat or guard against this trend (do you? 
Scientific journals doing more to check the papers submitted would be a 
start, but would be limited). We may be heading towards a much more 
fragmented world where relatively small groups of people only trust 
information from within their own group (with the need to constantly 
check that their information is indeed accurate), which would slow down 
progress immensely.

Ironic, because it's the very AI that we expect will lead to the 
singularity that is enabling this. Are we getting closer, or farther 
away? It's difficult to say. It looks like a negative feedback mechanism 
that prevents cultures from achieving a singularity just as they get 
close to it. Another candidate for the 'great filter'? Maybe.

Ben

From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Apr 30 20:28:04 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2024 21:28:04 +0100
Subject: [ExI] China plans brain-computer interfaces for cognitive
 enhancement
Message-ID: <CAL_armhZHi_WUqPpUJitPY7f6GFRgKgCCGvpHEDVAQMDdVz0aA@mail.gmail.com>

China Has a Controversial Plan for Brain-Computer Interfaces
China's brain-computer interface technology is catching up to the US.
But it envisions a very different use case: cognitive enhancement.
Emily Mullin Apr 30, 2024

<https://www.wired.com/story/china-brain-computer-interfaces-neuralink-neucyber-neurotech/>
Quotes:
At a tech forum in Beijing last week, a Chinese company unveiled a
?homegrown? brain-computer interface that allowed a monkey to
seemingly control a robotic arm just by thinking about it.
More concerning, though, is China?s interest in noninvasive BCIs for
the general population.
Hannas coauthored a report released in March that examines Chinese
research on BCIs for nonmedical purposes.
?China is not the least bit shy about this,? he says, referring to
ethical guidelines released by the Communist Party in February 2024
that include cognitive enhancement of healthy people as a goal of
Chinese BCI research.
Margaret Kosal, associate professor of international affairs at
Georgia Institute of Technology, says there?s a key difference between
how the US and China approach BCI research. ?The US has not explicitly
linked our civilian science with our military research,? she says.
?China?s strategy fundamentally links the military and the commercial,
and that is why there is concern.?
She says earlier adoption of BCIs could have implications for US
national security if these technologies are able to provide cognitive
enhancement in warfighters and merging of human and machine
intelligence. ?If that is something that a state can weaponize, that
would change the nature of warfare,? she says.
-----------------

As the Chinese people generally are already pretty intelligent,
enhancing their IQ could be impressive.

BillK