From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Aug 2 06:38:16 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2024 23:38:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] NYTimes.com: Artificial Intelligence Gives Weather Forecasters a New Edge In-Reply-To: References: <8166a750-2af7-4bee-8ff6-9d94d7eeb697n@googlegroups.com> Message-ID: BTW, there is another bit to the extended clinic seed story. https://htyp.org/mw/index.php?title=Standard_gauge&action=info Keith On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 7:41?PM Keith Henson wrote: > > On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 5:17?PM Will Steinberg wrote: > > > > Well no it still thinks much much faster than we do at any particular locus. > > Right. The article analyses a million-to-one subjective speed-up > community with a subjective communication delay about the same as we > have currently. This shrinks the community size to 300 meters. > > > It may be slower for information to travel from one end to another but I?m sure they will figure out what can and can?t wait and batch signal. Also maybe they?ll just figure out how to get around it anyway. > > I don't think they have (and the universe may not permit it) FTL. If > they did, they would be here. > > How much power do they have? luminosity is 4.68, so at 1 au 6388 > W/m^2, this power is divided by > 7.8^2 to get 105 W/m^2, ~0.1 GW/square km. At one alien per square > meter, they would have about the same power available as a human > brain, and at a first guess, they would have about the same cycle rate > (around 200 HZ) . That might give them a similar subjective sense of > time, so they can probably tolerate about one sec delay in > communications. (The communication and shared infrastructure might > take from one to ten times as much hardware and computation.) > > How many aliens are we talking about? The area of Tabby's star is D/2 > squared x pi. 22% blocked would be > 208 771 274 655 square km, 409 times the area of the earth. At a > million uploaded aliens per square km, 209 x 10^15. Our world > population is around 10^10, so only ~10,000 times larger. As a > square, 456914. km on one side. Light speed signal delay edge to edge > is about 1.5 seconds. The structure (if it is that) is in thermal > equilibrium at 65 K. That requires about 50 times as much radiator > area as light interception, so I would expect it to be a deep V shape > with the radiators facing local north and south. > > I may be entirely wrong and there could be a natural explanation for > this patch of stars. I hope so, we don't need the competition. On > the other hand, the physics makes sense and we may be looking at our > own fate in a few thousand years (or perhaps less). > > Keith > > > > @Stuart: I believe money is a physical representation of consciousness/willpower > > > > On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 8:11?PM Keith Henson wrote: > >> > >> On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 4:26?PM Will Steinberg wrote: > >> > > >> > It will *literally* have physical limits. > >> > >> One of those is the speed of light. I think the shadows we see at > >> Tabby's Star are data center located in the middle of the > >> "computational zone." From the timing of the light dips, we might be > >> looking at a data center over 400 times the area of the Earth out at > >> 7AU and operating at 65K. Edge to edge about 2.5 light seconds. > >> > >> > They may be large, but people will always expand to the borders. > >> > >> That's a reasonable assumption and the fact that 24 stars out in that > >> direction show similar light dips might indicate a spreading alien > >> civilization. That is what makes me think we are seeing the works of > >> aliens. > >> > >> > You can?t comprehend reaching those limits, but a being one trillion+ times as complex as you can. The difference between a single celled organism and a human, except far greater differences in magnitude. What comprises a self will always expand to take advantage of resources, which ARE finite. > >> > >> Maybe. I have written on this subject. If you are experiencing time > >> faster, resources at Neptune or even the far side of Earth's orbit are > >> not very useful. > >> https://hplusmagazine.com/2012/04/12/transhumanism-and-the-human-expansion-into-space-a-conflict-with-physics/ > >> > >> > A jupiter brain isn?t infinitely large. It is jupiter-sized. > >> > >> And the speed of light limits makes it think much slower than we do. > >> > >> Keith > >> > > >> > On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 7:21?PM Keith Henson wrote: > >> >> > >> >> On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 1:21?PM Will Steinberg wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> > At some point it will get old and people will want something new and scarce, imo. > >> >> > >> >> If you are living as an upload, can you think of anything that would > >> >> be scarce? New is expected, but there is no reason for "things" to be > >> >> limited. Think of a world entirely of open source. Is that scarce? > >> >> > >> >> Keith > >> >> > >> >> > On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 4:18?PM Keith Henson wrote: > >> >> >> > >> >> >> "There is no such thing as magic creation machines. " > >> >> >> > >> >> >> If you are uploaded, you can have a simulation of anything you want at > >> >> >> essentially no cost beyond whatever it takes to run an upload. That's > >> >> >> close to a "magic creation machine." > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Keith > >> >> >> > >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 9:11?AM Will Steinberg wrote: > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > Ok now that?s an insanely facile oversimplification. There is no such thing as magic creation machines. Everything uses resources, and whether it?s rare elements, electricity, computing power, or access to the technology itself, uneven distribution of resources is not going to miraculously disappear. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 6:21?AM John Clark wrote: > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 31, 2024 at 8:33?PM Stuart LaForge wrote: > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >>> > if robust quantum computing comes of age, then traditional banks are just as dead as bitcoin. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Bitcoin couldn't exist without modern encryption techniques, but for many centuries banks have gotten along just fine without it. And there's something else to consider, cryptocurrency is rapidly running out of time to be relevant. Once Drexler style nanotechnology is developed then, in just a few minutes, you'll be able to make anything you want yourself. That would even be true for real estate, after all the surface of a planet is not the only place where space exists. And once you reach that point what use would you have for money? > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> John K Clark > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >>> > >> >> >> >>> > >> >> >> >>> On Wednesday, July 31, 2024 at 4:11:23?PM UTC-7 johnk... at gmail.com wrote: > >> >> >> >>>> > >> >> >> >>>> On Wed, Jul 31, 2024 at 6:40?PM Stuart LaForge wrote: > >> >> >> >>>> > >> >> >> >>>>> > Of course all this is premised on P<>NP. > >> >> >> >>>> > >> >> >> >>>> > >> >> >> >>>> Most likely P? NP (although I wouldn't bet my life on it, mathematicians have been surprised before) but even so Bitcoin would still be dead if somebody makes a Quantum Computer that has about 1500 logical Qubits. A machine like that could break the elliptical encryption used by bitcoin in just a few minutes even if P? NP. > >> >> >> >>>> > >> >> >> >>>> John K Clark > >> >> >> >>>> > >> >> >> >> -- > >> >> >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. > >> >> >> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > >> >> >> >> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv0YreW6aV4n4Gm2eG%3Di7Mwwas7aWTX8JiYp40QgEt%2B3UQ%40mail.gmail.com. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > -- > >> >> >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. > >> >> >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > >> >> >> > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAKrqSyFUZXs902k%2B4CzHWVKvzOYMWscJ8KaMjPn%3DRiQvYrijYA%40mail.gmail.com. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> -- > >> >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. > >> >> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > >> >> >> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAPiwVB66Xt-JwhJhXzE2pVQCjSmkYGc-6LbAfLLa5OF7%2BsH2XQ%40mail.gmail.com. > >> >> > > >> >> > -- > >> >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. > >> >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > >> >> > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAKrqSyFDj4dL6O70ZRKz-e%3DkbwMQ4MZvnxozKQSSir_VJoe%2BqQ%40mail.gmail.com. > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. > >> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > >> >> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAPiwVB6a%3DqL9870rGPrSz80_nz2hnqQig561Ug8x3urC9xqoaw%40mail.gmail.com. > >> > > >> > -- > >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. > >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > >> > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAKrqSyHt8MEXZ1qtkTXdZ-JafpUobb%3DGU1%2BaWPYfbf_Fy4Ojgg%40mail.gmail.com. > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. > >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > >> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAPiwVB4vjt1LiSQkMiuYmhoCM8nfLDBN%3D1TecHyCCEN8MxB%2BrQ%40mail.gmail.com. > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAKrqSyHscCXc4PP21zgitQmvr%3D5Nzu6RYHBheWQGjmQ8o%3DrsiQ%40mail.gmail.com. From atymes at gmail.com Fri Aug 2 09:18:17 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2024 05:18:17 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Breakthrough in prime numbers Message-ID: https://www.science.org/content/article/sensational-breakthrough-marks-step-toward-revealing-hidden-structure-prime-numbers Spike, had you already heard of this? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Fri Aug 2 17:51:04 2024 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2024 10:51:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Bad year for Boeing Message-ID: <6574b1d822370e0dd4bc4010b23b924c@sollegro.com> It has been a rough year for Boeing with several incidents involving their 737 MAX airliners like spontaneously dropping thousands of feet in seconds, having doors fly off in midflight, and having sudden cabin depressurization. They had comedians roasting them on late night and sales of the 737 MAX slowed to a trickle as aviation authorities around grounded them due to technical issues. Then a Boeing whistleblower who had come forward with information about shady engineering and manufacturing practices at the company wound up dead. https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/08/yes-nasa-really-could-bring-starliners-astronauts-back-on-crew-dragon/ So for Boeing's next trick, their new Starliner spacecraft has stranded two astronauts Butch Wilmore and Suni Williams aboard the ISS turning what was supposed to be an 8 day mission into an 8 week stay aboard the ISS due to malfunctioning thrusters and helium leaks. Of course Elon has a SpaceX Dragon ready to rescue them, but NASA is wringing their hands trying to give Boeing every chance to pull their own fat out of the fire because of their contract with Boeing. As someone whose fond first memories of flying was on a TWA Boeing 747 jumbo jet where the stewardesses brought me crayons and toys to keep me occupied, I have ask what happened to Boeing? When and how did they fall so low? Stuart LaForge From atymes at gmail.com Fri Aug 2 20:20:37 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2024 16:20:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Bad year for Boeing In-Reply-To: <6574b1d822370e0dd4bc4010b23b924c@sollegro.com> References: <6574b1d822370e0dd4bc4010b23b924c@sollegro.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 2, 2024 at 1:52?PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > As someone whose fond first > memories of flying was on a TWA Boeing 747 jumbo jet where the > stewardesses brought me crayons and toys to keep me occupied, I have ask > what happened to Boeing? When and how did they fall so low? > When they merged with McConnell Douglas in 1997, the Douglas managers apparently ousted the Boeing top brass. The latter group cared about quality engineering; the new bosses cared about short-term profits and cost cutting. This attitude got passed along in their choices of who to hire and promote, just like the old one used to be. It has taken decades for the rot to thoroughly manifest, but it's plain to see today. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Aug 2 20:37:19 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2024 21:37:19 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Scientists discuss why we might not spot extraterrestrial civs Message-ID: August 2, 2024 Scientists discuss why we might not spot solar panel technosignatures by William Steigerwald, NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center Quotes: Now a recent paper published May 24 in the Astrophysical Journal postulates that if advanced extraterrestrial civilizations exist, one reason they might be hard to detect with telescopes from our vantage point is because their energy requirements may be relatively modest. If their culture, technology, and population size do not need vast amounts of power, they would not be required to build enormous stellar-energy harvesting structures that could be detected by current or proposed telescopes. "Large-scale stellar-energy harvesting structures may especially be obsolete when considering technological advances," adds Vincent Kofman, a co-author of the paper at NASA Goddard and American University, Washington, D.C. "Surely a society that can place enormous structures in space would be able to access nuclear fusion or other space-efficient methods of generating power." --------------------- People still thinking about the Fermi paradox........ BillK From pharos at gmail.com Fri Aug 2 21:01:49 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2024 22:01:49 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Discussion about open-source AI Message-ID: Meta just launched the largest ?open? AI model in history. Here?s why it matters Published: August 1, 2024 Quotes: Shaping the future of AI To ensure AI is democratised, we need three key pillars: governance: regulatory and ethical frameworks to ensure AI technology is being developed and used responsibly and ethically accessibility: affordable computing resources and user-friendly tools to ensure a fair landscape for developers and users openness: datasets and algorithms to train and build AI tools should be open source to ensure transparency. Achieving these three pillars is a shared responsibility for government, industry, academia and the public. The public can play a vital role by advocating for ethical policies in AI, staying informed about AI developments, using AI responsibly and supporting open-source AI initiatives. But several questions remain about open-source AI. How can we balance protecting intellectual property and fostering innovation through open-source AI? How can we minimise ethical concerns around open-source AI? How can we safeguard open-source AI against potential misuse? --------------- BillK From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Aug 2 23:20:53 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2024 16:20:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Scientists discuss why we might not spot extraterrestrial civs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 2, 2024 at 1:39?PM BillK via extropy-chat wrote: snip > A "Surely a society that can place enormous structures in space would be able to access nuclear fusion or other space-efficient methods of generating power." That's silly. They have a star, and thermal power plants will let them capture 40 to 60% Keith From pharos at gmail.com Sat Aug 3 14:23:48 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2024 15:23:48 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Scientists discuss why we might not spot extraterrestrial civs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: n Sat, 3 Aug 2024 at 00:21, Keith Henson wrote: > > On Fri, Aug 2, 2024 at 1:39?PM BillK via extropy-chat > wrote: > > snip > > > A "Surely a society that can place enormous > structures in space would be able to access nuclear fusion or other > space-efficient methods of generating power." > > That's silly. They have a star, and thermal power plants will let > them capture 40 to 60% > > Keith ----------------------------------------------- I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Why is it silly? To build a Dyson sphere will require tremendous resources in material and energy. It will be at least another 1,000 years before humans can even consider a huge project like that. At present, we are installing solar panels and batteries everywhere to supply energy (and these are improving every year). Within ten years we will have advanced AI and in probably 20 years, fusion energy power plants will be developed. What other energy sources might be developed in 100 or 1,000 years? Anti-matter engines? :) If by then we already have developed enough energy sources on Earth, why would we want to dedicate the whole planetary resources to building a Dyson sphere? This logic applies to every developing civilisation. That is what the scientist from NASA Goddard and American University is referring to. It seems a very reasonable idea to me. BillK From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Aug 3 16:58:04 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2024 09:58:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Scientists discuss why we might not spot extraterrestrial civs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 3, 2024 at 7:25?AM BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > > n Sat, 3 Aug 2024 at 00:21, Keith Henson wrote: > > > > On Fri, Aug 2, 2024 at 1:39?PM BillK via extropy-chat > > wrote: > > > > snip > > > > > A "Surely a society that can place enormous > > structures in space would be able to access nuclear fusion or other > > space-efficient methods of generating power." > > > > That's silly. They have a star, and thermal power plants will let > > them capture 40 to 60% > > > > Keith > ----------------------------------------------- > > > I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Why is it silly? If you are in space, building a fusion energy source is just silly. You have a star for energy. > To build a Dyson sphere will require tremendous resources in material > and energy. It is possible to build a Dyson sphere, but I don't think it makes sense. Orbiting structures do. > It will be at least another 1,000 years before humans can even > consider a huge project like that. We are considering it right now. As you know, I think we can see one crossing the disk of Tabby's Star. > At present, we are installing solar panels and batteries everywhere to > supply energy (and these are improving every year). > Within ten years we will have advanced AI and in probably 20 years, > fusion energy power plants will be developed. Fusion plants *might* make sense on the surface, but if we or our AI descendants move into space, no. The big problem is getting rid of the waste heat. Which is why you will find them in the computational zone rather than the habitable zone. > What other energy > sources might be developed in 100 or 1,000 years? Not likely. We understand energy. > Anti-matter engines? :) Just no. > If by then we already have developed enough energy sources on Earth, > why would we want to dedicate the whole planetary resources to building a Dyson > sphere? > This logic applies to every developing civilisation. That is what the > scientist from NASA Goddard and American University is referring to. > It seems a very reasonable idea to me. Regardless of whether what we see at Tabby's Star is aliens, it got me thinking about where a civilization would move to in a star system. You want cold to run computers at low error rates, but you need energy as well. It turns out that the equilibrium is around 5 AU for our system. The other factor is the speed of light, The place should be as small as possible for communications. Keith > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From postmowoods at gmail.com Sun Aug 4 03:03:57 2024 From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2024 21:03:57 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Disruptive AI Message-ID: So I've been thinking a lot for a few years now about disruptive business models. You know, things like FedEx, that just change the rules that came before. I've thought about what areas of business seem more ripe than others. And what I would do to be part of the disruption, were I younger... and one of the best ones I've come up with is the less than load (LTL) trucking business. Where you have a truck that isn't all the way full that you want to top off for all or part of a trip, making the trip more profitable for the driver and truck company, as well as potentially less expensive for the shipping customer. The processes used in these businesses currently are abysmal. I had a load caught in a local "loading dock" for three days because they couldn't get a fork lift to bring the stuff to their front gate where I would have gladly met them. Bill of Lading sounds like something that you would find in an 1840s dock in Liverpool, and it's about that abysmal. I don't think this is a task where AI would be spectacularly useful, but damn it, there have to be better algorithms for efficiently getting all of THIS to WHERE it needs to be. Someone IS going to fix this gordian knot, and in the process they are going to knock out Yellow and some of the other big shippers. There's too much money for the invisible hand not to get involved at some point. The whole industry is absolutely full of low hanging fruit. I guess it's not a sexy enough problem for young programmers to want to solve. Too "yesterday" for the folks in Silicon Valley. But I feel such a NEED for more efficient use of a smaller and smaller number of drivers. And yes, autonomous trucks are just around the corner, but that's not the problem as I see it. It's how to connect shippers to trucks going in the right direction efficiently. A vast number of trucks go driving around half empty. It's a horrible waste. -Kelly From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun Aug 4 04:14:10 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2024 21:14:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Disruptive AI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 3, 2024 at 8:05?PM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat wrote: > > and in the process they > are going to knock out Yellow and some of the other big shippers. Not Yellow, they went bankrupt a year ago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Corporation Worth reading. It sounds a bit like they were trying what you suggested. Keith > There's too much money for the invisible hand not to get involved at > some point. The whole industry is absolutely full of low hanging > fruit. I guess it's not a sexy enough problem for young programmers to > want to solve. Too "yesterday" for the folks in Silicon Valley. But I > feel such a NEED for more efficient use of a smaller and smaller > number of drivers. And yes, autonomous trucks are just around the > corner, but that's not the problem as I see it. It's how to connect > shippers to trucks going in the right direction efficiently. A vast > number of trucks go driving around half empty. It's a horrible waste. > > -Kelly > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From pharos at gmail.com Mon Aug 5 20:15:15 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2024 21:15:15 +0100 Subject: [ExI] How AI assists the Search for Habitable Worlds Message-ID: Astronomers have detected thousands of planets, including dozens that are potentially habitable. To winnow them down, they need to understand their atmospheres. AI and machine learning can help. Posted on August 5, 2024 by Evan Gough Fast-Tracking the Search for Habitable Worlds Quote: Modern astronomy would struggle without AI and machine learning (ML), which have become indispensable tools. They alone have the capability to manage and work with the vast amounts of data that modern telescopes generate. ML can sift through large datasets, seeking specified patterns that would take humans far longer to find. ------------------- Looking for habitable atmospheres? Maybe Alien AIs don't need habitable atmospheres? BillK From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Tue Aug 6 23:58:15 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2024 16:58:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Religion Message-ID: The interesting question is why do humans have religions at all? I make a case that it is a side effect of selection for war. Religion is a class of mutually exclusive memes. I.e., it is seldom that a given person has more than one of them, so you don't expect someone who identifies as a Catholic to also be a Methodist. This brings you to the interesting conclusion that communism is a religion since being one makes it unlikely to have any of the common religious memes. This classification does not help with the question of why humans have (or are infested) with such memes. From how common this is, religious memes (or something related) must have been important to survival in the Stone Age. Religious memes seem to be descended from xenophobic memes. Xenophobic memes are the first step in the path to war. I think genetic selection for war is the origin of susceptibility to religious memes. Keith From interzone at gmail.com Wed Aug 7 00:15:41 2024 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2024 20:15:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Religion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't wanna be the guy who says that to someone with a hammer everything looks like...but... I think xenophobia is downstream of religion if we are talking about them together (not saying all xenophobia is caused by religion though), and religion exists (and persists) because it is quite a terrible prospect for a self conscious, intelligent organism to contemplate their mortality. I would suggest Unamuno's The Tragic Sense of Life as a guidepost in explaining why it exists and the tension between Faith and Reason. A great deal of life on this planet is suffering, and without the hope of an afterlife the outlook is pretty bleak. I say this as an atheist. Religious belief systems inspire hope which leads to greater reproduction in that group. There are alot of additional directions I could go in as to why early, primitive religions exist in terms of explaining and controlling your environment (or rather the appearance of control) but I think the crux of my answer is in my argument above. Memento mori. On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 7:58?PM Keith Henson wrote: > The interesting question is why do humans have religions at all? I > make a case that it is a side effect of selection for war. > > Religion is a class of mutually exclusive memes. I.e., it is seldom > that a given person has more than one of them, so you don't expect > someone who identifies as a Catholic to also be a Methodist. This > brings you to the interesting conclusion that communism is a religion > since being one makes it unlikely to have any of the common religious > memes. > > This classification does not help with the question of why humans have > (or are infested) with such memes. From how common this is, religious > memes (or something related) must have been important to survival in > the Stone Age. > > Religious memes seem to be descended from xenophobic memes. > > Xenophobic memes are the first step in the path to war. I think > genetic selection for war is the origin of susceptibility to religious > memes. > > > Keith > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "extropolis" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAPiwVB790bABKY%2BQYyAeQZQyJ4erjK3_B%2BVpdpaoycen3ZX5ZA%40mail.gmail.com > . > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Aug 7 01:10:27 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2024 18:10:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Religion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 5:16?PM Dylan Distasio wrote: > > I don't wanna be the guy who says that to someone with a hammer everything looks like...but... I think most of you have seen my (so far) unpublished paper Genetic Selection for War in Prehistoric Human Populations Authors: H. Keith Henson,* Arel Lucas Email: hkeithhenson at gmail.com, arellu at gmail.com Abstract: Behavior, including human behavior related to war, is no less subject to Darwinian selection than physical traits. Behavior results from physical brain modules constructed by genes and environmental input. The environmental detection and operation of behavioral switches leading to wars are also under evolutionary selection. War behavior in the environment of evolutionary adaptedness (EEA) was under positive selection when the alternative (starvation) was worse than war. The model is then applied in an attempt to explain the behavioral difference between chimpanzees and bonobos with additional thoughts on the KhoeSan People of Southern Africa. It has a math model of how psychological traits for war were selected. (War is shown to be better for genes when the alternative is worse.) If you want a copy, ask. > I think xenophobia is downstream of religion if we are talking about them together (not saying all xenophobia is caused by religion though), and religion exists (and persists) because it is quite a terrible prospect for a self conscious, intelligent organism to contemplate their mortality. I would suggest Unamuno's The Tragic Sense of Life as a guidepost in explaining why it exists and the tension between Faith and Reason. My argument is that one of the traits for war turns up the "gain*" on the circulation of xenophobic memes after the detection of a bleak (resource short) future. This is fairly obvious. Somewhat more speculative is that the psychological mechanism that supports gaining and holding xenophobic memes about the tribe to be attacked is also the mechanism behind gaining and holding religious memes > A great deal of life on this planet is suffering, and without the hope of an afterlife the outlook is pretty bleak. I say this as an atheist. Hmm. Are you signed up for cryonics? > Religious belief systems inspire hope which leads to greater reproduction in that group. This I doubt. I would be interested in a model that shows more reproduction for groups with a religion than without, especially back when most of the selection was going on, say 50,000 years ago. > There are alot of additional directions I could go in as to why early, primitive religions exist in terms of explaining and controlling your environment (or rather the appearance of control) but I think the crux of my answer is in my argument above. See if you can generate a numeric model such as I did for the differential survival of genes in the war paper. Keith > Memento mori. > > On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 7:58?PM Keith Henson wrote: >> >> The interesting question is why do humans have religions at all? I >> make a case that it is a side effect of selection for war. >> >> Religion is a class of mutually exclusive memes. I.e., it is seldom >> that a given person has more than one of them, so you don't expect >> someone who identifies as a Catholic to also be a Methodist. This >> brings you to the interesting conclusion that communism is a religion >> since being one makes it unlikely to have any of the common religious >> memes. >> >> This classification does not help with the question of why humans have >> (or are infested) with such memes. From how common this is, religious >> memes (or something related) must have been important to survival in >> the Stone Age. >> >> Religious memes seem to be descended from xenophobic memes. >> >> Xenophobic memes are the first step in the path to war. I think >> genetic selection for war is the origin of susceptibility to religious >> memes. >> >> >> Keith >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAPiwVB790bABKY%2BQYyAeQZQyJ4erjK3_B%2BVpdpaoycen3ZX5ZA%40mail.gmail.com. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJrqPH_OcmCEAhP6r1f%3DCHKwg%2B7qJwLHdnBCubRinmHm7-UHRA%40mail.gmail.com. From efc at disroot.org Wed Aug 7 07:45:52 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2024 09:45:52 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Religion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1a60b374-fd22-ffac-1809-93fc01c96a63@disroot.org> On Tue, 6 Aug 2024, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: > There are alot of additional directions I could go in as to why early, primitive religions exist in terms of explaining and > controlling your environment (or rather the appearance of control) but I think the crux of my answer is in my argument above. I agree. My bet would be that the origin is safety/control and explanation. Eventually it led to science, and hence the antagonism between religion and science. Religion feels threatened. I'd also add that it's a nice tool to control society and ensure a homogeneous culture and cooperation. But within the phenomenon of religion, you also have the mystics, which I think started with the above, but found their way to an incredibly strong internal experience, which kind of lessened the need for safety and explanation for them, but they have always been a tiny minority so perhaps not so relevant for the original question. > Memento mori. > > On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 7:58?PM Keith Henson wrote: > The interesting question is why do humans have religions at all? I > make a case that it is a side effect of selection for war. > > Religion is a class of mutually exclusive memes. I.e., it is seldom > that a given person has more than one of them, so you don't expect > someone who identifies as a Catholic to also be a Methodist. This > brings you to the interesting conclusion that communism is a religion > since being one makes it unlikely to have any of the common religious > memes. > > This classification does not help with the question of why humans have > (or are infested) with such memes. From how common this is, religious > memes (or something related) must have been important to survival in > the Stone Age. > > Religious memes seem to be descended from xenophobic memes. > > Xenophobic memes are the first step in the path to war. I think > genetic selection for war is the origin of susceptibility to religious > memes. > > > Keith > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to > extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAPiwVB790bABKY%2BQYyAeQZQyJ4erjK3_B%2BVpdpaoycen3ZX5ZA%40mail.gmail.com. > > > From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Aug 7 17:38:16 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2024 10:38:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Religion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "assuming you can explain human behaviors with a rational, extremely quantitative model. " Let me step back a bit and mention another human trait that mystifies people in modern times. https://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Capture-bonding Over a very long time, perhaps the last 200,000 years, women were captured from one tribe to another perhaps ten percent per generation. They either adjusted (bonded) to their new situation in which case they became our ancestors or they did not, in which case they were killed. This long term selection results in the behaviour we see in capture cases such as Patty Hearst and Elizabeth Smart. It is possible that the deeply diverged San people don't have this trait. According to evolutionary psychology, all behavior is either the result of selection or a side effect of something that was selected. Drug addiction behavior is an example of an obvious side effect. The very widespread behavior to be infected with what we call a religion is (by EP standards) one or the other. I make a case that susceptibility to religious memes is a side effect of selection for war. The alternative is that being susceptible to infection by religious memes was selected in the past, that is that those who were susceptible left more children. Keith On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 6:57?PM Dylan Distasio wrote: > > My original reply got caught in the moderator queue because I included a chart directly, so reposting with a link to it instead... > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: Dylan Distasio > Date: Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 9:48?PM > Subject: Re: [Extropolis] Religion > To: > Cc: ExI chat list > > > > > On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 9:10?PM Keith Henson wrote: >> >> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 5:16?PM Dylan Distasio wrote: >> > >> > I don't wanna be the guy who says that to someone with a hammer everything looks like...but... >> >> I think most of you have seen my (so far) unpublished paper >> >> Genetic Selection for War in Prehistoric Human Populations >> >> Authors: H. Keith Henson,* Arel Lucas Email: hkeithhenson at gmail.com, >> arellu at gmail.com >> >> Abstract: Behavior, including human behavior related to war, is no >> less subject to Darwinian selection than physical traits. Behavior >> results from physical brain modules constructed by genes and >> environmental input. The environmental detection and operation of >> behavioral switches leading to wars are also under evolutionary >> selection. War behavior in the environment of evolutionary adaptedness >> (EEA) was under positive selection when the alternative (starvation) >> was worse than war. The model is then applied in an attempt to >> explain the behavioral difference between chimpanzees and bonobos with >> additional thoughts on the KhoeSan People of Southern Africa. >> >> It has a math model of how psychological traits for war were selected. >> (War is shown to be better for genes when the alternative is worse.) > > > In fairness, I have not done a deep dive on your paper, but I will try to. I apologize if I am misconstruing things from the abstract alone, but I am getting Skinner vibes here, and I don't think we live in Skinner box. Again, my interpretation may be off though as I haven't read it yet despite being familiar with your general assertions on list. > > >> >> >> If you want a copy, ask. > > > Yes, if you don't mind emailing me it separately, that would be appreciated. >> >> >> > I think xenophobia is downstream of religion if we are talking about them together (not saying all xenophobia is caused by religion though), and religion exists (and persists) because it is quite a terrible prospect for a self conscious, intelligent organism to contemplate their mortality. I would suggest Unamuno's The Tragic Sense of Life as a guidepost in explaining why it exists and the tension between Faith and Reason. >> >> Somewhat more >> speculative is that the psychological mechanism that supports gaining >> and holding xenophobic memes about the tribe to be attacked is also >> the mechanism behind gaining and holding religious memes > > > I'm not sold on this, but maybe I will have a different opinion after reading the paper. > >> >> >> > A great deal of life on this planet is suffering, and without the hope of an afterlife the outlook is pretty bleak. I say this as an atheist. >> >> Hmm. Are you signed up for cryonics? > > > Not yet. I don't think there is anything to lose other than money to do so, and may at some point, but I consider the odds of someone successfully resurrecting a copy of me in the future to be extremely low for multiple reasons. If you have the money and optimism, it beats the alternative though. >> >> >> > Religious belief systems inspire hope which leads to greater reproduction in that group. >> >> This I doubt. I would be interested in a model that shows more >> reproduction for groups with a religion than without, especially back >> when most of the selection was going on, say 50,000 years ago. > > > I'm not going to include a model. I am just going to leave this here. Now I will grant in the past and to a lesser extent present, there are likely confounding variables like family agriculture needing more bodies / high infant mortality rates, but I'm not sure why you immediately doubt it. I don't need a model to come up with the hypothesis that it is a positive influence on reproduction, and again, I can't remove for confounding variables (and I do believe they are contributing to some degree as I believe socioeconomic levels and cost of raising a child are two off the top of my head), but secular populations have the lowest reproduction rates on the planet. > > I don't know if you're going to have bones to pick with this particular chart, but I can tell you the numbers are very clear that one particularly fervent religion has the highest reproduction rate currently. > > https://imgur.com/a/cueTVA4 > >> > There are alot of additional directions I could go in as to why early, primitive religions exist in terms of explaining and controlling your environment (or rather the appearance of control) but I think the crux of my answer is in my argument above. >> >> See if you can generate a numeric model such as I did for the >> differential survival of genes in the war paper. > > > This won't be happening because I wouldn't pretend to be able to without at the very least spending a great deal of time and brain capacity, and even then, doubt I could, but I would point out that I think you are falling into the same trap that many practioners of the Dismal Science fall into which is assuming you can explain human behaviors with a rational, extremely quantitative model. I appreciate your efforts even if I remain skeptical. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJrqPH-tGt_tHryKQ%3DmSpH-ftFbbpb4t_b4t-Bsfg3bS2ydbEA%40mail.gmail.com. From steinberg.will at gmail.com Wed Aug 7 23:32:06 2024 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2024 19:32:06 -0400 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Religion In-Reply-To: <1a60b374-fd22-ffac-1809-93fc01c96a63@disroot.org> References: <1a60b374-fd22-ffac-1809-93fc01c96a63@disroot.org> Message-ID: Mysticism is the basis of religion. All religion starts with a ?prophet? type who realizes some kind of deep truth about reality or society. This truth is so compelling to people that they continue to listen and they spread the word. I can?t just say that a magic unicorn controls the world by pissing on a magic globe and make a movement?maybe a small cult of idiots. But powerful religions are based on powerful truths. As I mentioned, monotheism had incredible power based on the simple truth ?everything looks different but it?s actually all one thing?. Animism before that was based on the simple truth ?different natural objects [gods] are different and have consistent patterns/behavior?. On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 3:46?AM efc--- via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Tue, 6 Aug 2024, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: > > > There are alot of additional directions I could go in as to why early, > primitive religions exist in terms of explaining and > > controlling your environment (or rather the appearance of control) but I > think the crux of my answer is in my argument above. > > I agree. My bet would be that the origin is safety/control and > explanation. Eventually it led to science, and hence the antagonism > between religion and science. Religion feels threatened. > > I'd also add that it's a nice tool to control society and > ensure a homogeneous culture and cooperation. > > But within the phenomenon of religion, you also have the mystics, which > I think started with the above, but found their way to an incredibly > strong internal experience, which kind of lessened the need for safety > and explanation for them, but they have always been a tiny minority so > perhaps not so relevant for the original question. > > > Memento mori. > > > > On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 7:58?PM Keith Henson > wrote: > > The interesting question is why do humans have religions at all? I > > make a case that it is a side effect of selection for war. > > > > Religion is a class of mutually exclusive memes. I.e., it is seldom > > that a given person has more than one of them, so you don't expect > > someone who identifies as a Catholic to also be a Methodist. This > > brings you to the interesting conclusion that communism is a > religion > > since being one makes it unlikely to have any of the common > religious > > memes. > > > > This classification does not help with the question of why humans > have > > (or are infested) with such memes. From how common this is, > religious > > memes (or something related) must have been important to survival > in > > the Stone Age. > > > > Religious memes seem to be descended from xenophobic memes. > > > > Xenophobic memes are the first step in the path to war. I think > > genetic selection for war is the origin of susceptibility to > religious > > memes. > > > > > > Keith > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "extropolis" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > send an email to > > extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > > To view this discussion on the web visit > > > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAPiwVB790bABKY%2BQYyAeQZQyJ4erjK3_B%2BVpdpaoycen3ZX5ZA%40mail.gmail.com > . > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Aug 8 00:21:07 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2024 17:21:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Religion In-Reply-To: References: <1a60b374-fd22-ffac-1809-93fc01c96a63@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 4:33?PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: > > Mysticism is the basis of religion. All religion starts with a ?prophet? type who realizes some kind of deep truth about reality or society. Two recent US religions originated from women who had temporal lobe brain damage. > This truth is so compelling to people that they continue to listen and they spread the word. As you well know, it is usually nonsense, not truth. So why are human minds susceptible to this class of memes? Truth does not seem to be much involved. Consider how many people were deeply affected by the QAnon bs. One of them was so affected that he went there armed and insisted on being let into the (non existent) basement. I think he got 5 years in jail. It was an amazing story. Keith PS I once spent considerable time on a picket talking to a scientologist. He noted that the members of this cult were subject to scam after scam, particularly MLM scams. I suspect this is due to a genetic trait for gullibility, i.e., you are born with it, though I have speculated that people could be trained to be resistant to cults and other scams. I would like to see someone investigate the genetic backgrounds of cult members. It seems to me that people with Mormon family backgrounds are over represented in scientology, but I don't have numbers. (Mormons definitely sorted out the gullible.) > I can?t just say that a magic unicorn controls the world by pissing on a magic globe and make a movement?maybe a small cult of idiots. But powerful religions are based on powerful truths. As I mentioned, monotheism had incredible power based on the simple truth ?everything looks different but it?s actually all one thing?. Animism before that was based on the simple truth ?different natural objects [gods] are different and have consistent patterns/behavior?. > > On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 3:46?AM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> >> >> On Tue, 6 Aug 2024, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> > There are alot of additional directions I could go in as to why early, primitive religions exist in terms of explaining and >> > controlling your environment (or rather the appearance of control) but I think the crux of my answer is in my argument above. >> >> I agree. My bet would be that the origin is safety/control and >> explanation. Eventually it led to science, and hence the antagonism >> between religion and science. Religion feels threatened. >> >> I'd also add that it's a nice tool to control society and >> ensure a homogeneous culture and cooperation. >> >> But within the phenomenon of religion, you also have the mystics, which >> I think started with the above, but found their way to an incredibly >> strong internal experience, which kind of lessened the need for safety >> and explanation for them, but they have always been a tiny minority so >> perhaps not so relevant for the original question. >> >> > Memento mori. >> > >> > On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 7:58?PM Keith Henson wrote: >> > The interesting question is why do humans have religions at all? I >> > make a case that it is a side effect of selection for war. >> > >> > Religion is a class of mutually exclusive memes. I.e., it is seldom >> > that a given person has more than one of them, so you don't expect >> > someone who identifies as a Catholic to also be a Methodist. This >> > brings you to the interesting conclusion that communism is a religion >> > since being one makes it unlikely to have any of the common religious >> > memes. >> > >> > This classification does not help with the question of why humans have >> > (or are infested) with such memes. From how common this is, religious >> > memes (or something related) must have been important to survival in >> > the Stone Age. >> > >> > Religious memes seem to be descended from xenophobic memes. >> > >> > Xenophobic memes are the first step in the path to war. I think >> > genetic selection for war is the origin of susceptibility to religious >> > memes. >> > >> > >> > Keith >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to >> > extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >> > To view this discussion on the web visit >> > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAPiwVB790bABKY%2BQYyAeQZQyJ4erjK3_B%2BVpdpaoycen3ZX5ZA%40mail.gmail.com. >> > >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From efc at disroot.org Thu Aug 8 08:49:58 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2024 10:49:58 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Religion In-Reply-To: References: <1a60b374-fd22-ffac-1809-93fc01c96a63@disroot.org> Message-ID: <223f832a-f5b4-048e-451e-2aeabf9fed69@disroot.org> On Wed, 7 Aug 2024, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: > Mysticism is the basis of religion.? All religion starts with a ?prophet? type who realizes some kind of deep truth about reality or > society.? This truth is so compelling to people that they continue to listen and they spread the word.? I can?t just say that a magic > unicorn controls the world by pissing on a magic globe and make a movement?maybe a small cult of idiots.? But powerful religions are > based on powerful truths.? As I mentioned, monotheism had incredible power based on the simple truth ?everything looks different but > it?s actually all one thing?.? Animism before that was based on the simple truth ?different natural objects [gods] are different and > have consistent patterns/behavior?. Mysticism I think fits nicely with monotheism due to its "unifying" experience. I was thinking about mentioning it, but then I thought, what about if we go further back? As you say, spirits, animism etc. Do you still think those come from mystic experiences, or from accidents like "I pet this rock, and I caught 2 fish today, why is that?". I think it is very uncontroversial to say that "modern" religions tend to come from mysticism, but what about nature religions? Then you have of course the grey areas of Daoism and Confucianism, which to me (but I'm definitely not an expert on religion) seem to sit uncomfortably in the line between philosophy and religion (daoism). I could accept that Confucianism is leaning more towards philosophy, but I think they have some kind of ancestor worship, don't they? > On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 3:46?AM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > > > On Tue, 6 Aug 2024, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: > > > There are alot of additional directions I could go in as to why early, primitive religions exist in terms of explaining > and > > controlling your environment (or rather the appearance of control) but I think the crux of my answer is in my argument > above. > > I agree. My bet would be that the origin is safety/control and > explanation. Eventually it led to science, and hence the antagonism > between religion and science. Religion feels threatened. > > I'd also add that it's a nice tool to control society and > ensure a homogeneous culture and cooperation. > > But within the phenomenon of religion, you also have the mystics, which > I think started with the above, but found their way to an incredibly > strong internal experience, which kind of lessened the need for safety > and explanation for them, but they have always been a tiny minority so > perhaps not so relevant for the original question. > > > Memento mori. > > > > On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 7:58?PM Keith Henson wrote: > >? ? ? ?The interesting question is why do humans have religions at all? I > >? ? ? ?make a case that it is a side effect of selection for war. > > > >? ? ? ?Religion is a class of mutually exclusive memes. I.e., it is seldom > >? ? ? ?that a given person has more than one of them, so you don't expect > >? ? ? ?someone who identifies as a Catholic to also be a Methodist. This > >? ? ? ?brings you to the interesting conclusion that communism is a religion > >? ? ? ?since being one makes it unlikely to have any of the common religious > >? ? ? ?memes. > > > >? ? ? ?This classification does not help with the question of why humans have > >? ? ? ?(or are infested) with such memes. From how common this is, religious > >? ? ? ?memes (or something related) must have been important to survival in > >? ? ? ?the Stone Age. > > > >? ? ? ?Religious memes seem to be descended from xenophobic memes. > > > >? ? ? ?Xenophobic memes are the first step in the path to war. I think > >? ? ? ?genetic selection for war is the origin of susceptibility to religious > >? ? ? ?memes. > > > > > >? ? ? ?Keith > > > >? ? ? ?-- > >? ? ? ?You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. > >? ? ? ?To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to > >? ? ? ?extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > >? ? ? ?To view this discussion on the web visit > >? ? ? > ?https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAPiwVB790bABKY%2BQYyAeQZQyJ4erjK3_B%2BVpdpaoycen3ZX5ZA%40mail.gmail.com. > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > From efc at disroot.org Thu Aug 8 08:53:10 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2024 10:53:10 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Religion In-Reply-To: References: <1a60b374-fd22-ffac-1809-93fc01c96a63@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Aug 2024, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 4:33?PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat > wrote: >> >> Mysticism is the basis of religion. All religion starts with a ?prophet? type who realizes some kind of deep truth about reality or society. > > Two recent US religions originated from women who had temporal lobe > brain damage. Which ones? Would be an interesting read. >> This truth is so compelling to people that they continue to listen and they spread the word. > > As you well know, it is usually nonsense, not truth. So why are human > minds susceptible to this class of memes? That's why I think about religion as a mystic or transcendent "core" that only applies to a small "elite" and a broader control system. It could be that the ball is set in motion by the core, but this is then captured by more "worldly" people who see it as an excellent way for control. > Truth does not seem to be much involved. Consider how many people I think that perhaps we can learn something from the deep, meaningful experiences that some people have through religion, and maybe extract, and apply it in a non-religious way to other people to enrich and deepen the meaning of their lives. > were deeply affected by the QAnon bs. One of them was so affected > that he went there armed and insisted on being let into the (non > existent) basement. I think he got 5 years in jail. It was an > amazing story. > > Keith > > PS I once spent considerable time on a picket talking to a > scientologist. He noted that the members of this cult were subject to > scam after scam, particularly MLM scams. I suspect this is due to a > genetic trait for gullibility, i.e., you are born with it, though I > have speculated that people could be trained to be resistant to cults > and other scams. I would like to see someone investigate the genetic > backgrounds of cult members. It seems to me that people with Mormon > family backgrounds are over represented in scientology, but I don't > have numbers. (Mormons definitely sorted out the gullible.) > > >> I can?t just say that a magic unicorn controls the world by pissing on a magic globe and make a movement?maybe a small cult of idiots. But powerful religions are based on powerful truths. As I mentioned, monotheism had incredible power based on the simple truth ?everything looks different but it?s actually all one thing?. Animism before that was based on the simple truth ?different natural objects [gods] are different and have consistent patterns/behavior?. >> >> On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 3:46?AM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, 6 Aug 2024, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> > There are alot of additional directions I could go in as to why early, primitive religions exist in terms of explaining and >>> > controlling your environment (or rather the appearance of control) but I think the crux of my answer is in my argument above. >>> >>> I agree. My bet would be that the origin is safety/control and >>> explanation. Eventually it led to science, and hence the antagonism >>> between religion and science. Religion feels threatened. >>> >>> I'd also add that it's a nice tool to control society and >>> ensure a homogeneous culture and cooperation. >>> >>> But within the phenomenon of religion, you also have the mystics, which >>> I think started with the above, but found their way to an incredibly >>> strong internal experience, which kind of lessened the need for safety >>> and explanation for them, but they have always been a tiny minority so >>> perhaps not so relevant for the original question. >>> >>> > Memento mori. >>> > >>> > On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 7:58?PM Keith Henson wrote: >>> > The interesting question is why do humans have religions at all? I >>> > make a case that it is a side effect of selection for war. >>> > >>> > Religion is a class of mutually exclusive memes. I.e., it is seldom >>> > that a given person has more than one of them, so you don't expect >>> > someone who identifies as a Catholic to also be a Methodist. This >>> > brings you to the interesting conclusion that communism is a religion >>> > since being one makes it unlikely to have any of the common religious >>> > memes. >>> > >>> > This classification does not help with the question of why humans have >>> > (or are infested) with such memes. From how common this is, religious >>> > memes (or something related) must have been important to survival in >>> > the Stone Age. >>> > >>> > Religious memes seem to be descended from xenophobic memes. >>> > >>> > Xenophobic memes are the first step in the path to war. I think >>> > genetic selection for war is the origin of susceptibility to religious >>> > memes. >>> > >>> > >>> > Keith >>> > >>> > -- >>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. >>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to >>> > extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >>> > To view this discussion on the web visit >>> > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAPiwVB790bABKY%2BQYyAeQZQyJ4erjK3_B%2BVpdpaoycen3ZX5ZA%40mail.gmail.com. >>> > >>> > >>> >_______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Aug 8 14:54:50 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2024 07:54:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Religion In-Reply-To: References: <1a60b374-fd22-ffac-1809-93fc01c96a63@disroot.org> Message-ID: The last couple of posts have invoked mysticism. OK, how did this human trait evolve? You have only direct selection of the trait or as a side effect of something else that was selected. Keith On Thu, Aug 8, 2024 at 1:54?AM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > On Wed, 7 Aug 2024, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > > > On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 4:33?PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat > > wrote: > >> > >> Mysticism is the basis of religion. All religion starts with a ?prophet? type who realizes some kind of deep truth about reality or society. > > > > Two recent US religions originated from women who had temporal lobe > > brain damage. > > Which ones? Would be an interesting read. > > >> This truth is so compelling to people that they continue to listen and they spread the word. > > > > As you well know, it is usually nonsense, not truth. So why are human > > minds susceptible to this class of memes? > > That's why I think about religion as a mystic or transcendent "core" > that only applies to a small "elite" and a broader control system. It > could be that the ball is set in motion by the core, but this is then > captured by more "worldly" people who see it as an excellent way for > control. > > > Truth does not seem to be much involved. Consider how many people > > I think that perhaps we can learn something from the deep, meaningful > experiences that some people have through religion, and maybe extract, > and apply it in a non-religious way to other people to enrich and deepen > the meaning of their lives. > > > > were deeply affected by the QAnon bs. One of them was so affected > > that he went there armed and insisted on being let into the (non > > existent) basement. I think he got 5 years in jail. It was an > > amazing story. > > > > Keith > > > > PS I once spent considerable time on a picket talking to a > > scientologist. He noted that the members of this cult were subject to > > scam after scam, particularly MLM scams. I suspect this is due to a > > genetic trait for gullibility, i.e., you are born with it, though I > > have speculated that people could be trained to be resistant to cults > > and other scams. I would like to see someone investigate the genetic > > backgrounds of cult members. It seems to me that people with Mormon > > family backgrounds are over represented in scientology, but I don't > > have numbers. (Mormons definitely sorted out the gullible.) > > > > > >> I can?t just say that a magic unicorn controls the world by pissing on a magic globe and make a movement?maybe a small cult of idiots. But powerful religions are based on powerful truths. As I mentioned, monotheism had incredible power based on the simple truth ?everything looks different but it?s actually all one thing?. Animism before that was based on the simple truth ?different natural objects [gods] are different and have consistent patterns/behavior?. > >> > >> On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 3:46?AM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Tue, 6 Aug 2024, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: > >>> > >>> > There are alot of additional directions I could go in as to why early, primitive religions exist in terms of explaining and > >>> > controlling your environment (or rather the appearance of control) but I think the crux of my answer is in my argument above. > >>> > >>> I agree. My bet would be that the origin is safety/control and > >>> explanation. Eventually it led to science, and hence the antagonism > >>> between religion and science. Religion feels threatened. > >>> > >>> I'd also add that it's a nice tool to control society and > >>> ensure a homogeneous culture and cooperation. > >>> > >>> But within the phenomenon of religion, you also have the mystics, which > >>> I think started with the above, but found their way to an incredibly > >>> strong internal experience, which kind of lessened the need for safety > >>> and explanation for them, but they have always been a tiny minority so > >>> perhaps not so relevant for the original question. > >>> > >>> > Memento mori. > >>> > > >>> > On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 7:58?PM Keith Henson wrote: > >>> > The interesting question is why do humans have religions at all? I > >>> > make a case that it is a side effect of selection for war. > >>> > > >>> > Religion is a class of mutually exclusive memes. I.e., it is seldom > >>> > that a given person has more than one of them, so you don't expect > >>> > someone who identifies as a Catholic to also be a Methodist. This > >>> > brings you to the interesting conclusion that communism is a religion > >>> > since being one makes it unlikely to have any of the common religious > >>> > memes. > >>> > > >>> > This classification does not help with the question of why humans have > >>> > (or are infested) with such memes. From how common this is, religious > >>> > memes (or something related) must have been important to survival in > >>> > the Stone Age. > >>> > > >>> > Religious memes seem to be descended from xenophobic memes. > >>> > > >>> > Xenophobic memes are the first step in the path to war. I think > >>> > genetic selection for war is the origin of susceptibility to religious > >>> > memes. > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Keith > >>> > > >>> > -- > >>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. > >>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to > >>> > extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > >>> > To view this discussion on the web visit > >>> > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAPiwVB790bABKY%2BQYyAeQZQyJ4erjK3_B%2BVpdpaoycen3ZX5ZA%40mail.gmail.com. > >>> > > >>> > > >>> >_______________________________________________ > >>> extropy-chat mailing list > >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> extropy-chat mailing list > >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat_______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From efc at disroot.org Thu Aug 8 15:20:44 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2024 17:20:44 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Religion In-Reply-To: References: <1a60b374-fd22-ffac-1809-93fc01c96a63@disroot.org> Message-ID: <9e29c0f6-4d31-97bb-7c6e-82bff4de3427@disroot.org> Random side effect? On Thu, 8 Aug 2024, Keith Henson wrote: > The last couple of posts have invoked mysticism. OK, how did this > human trait evolve? You have only direct selection of the trait or as > a side effect of something else that was selected. > > Keith > > On Thu, Aug 8, 2024 at 1:54?AM efc--- via extropy-chat > wrote: >> >> >> >> On Wed, 7 Aug 2024, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: >> >>> On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 4:33?PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Mysticism is the basis of religion. All religion starts with a ?prophet? type who realizes some kind of deep truth about reality or society. >>> >>> Two recent US religions originated from women who had temporal lobe >>> brain damage. >> >> Which ones? Would be an interesting read. >> >>>> This truth is so compelling to people that they continue to listen and they spread the word. >>> >>> As you well know, it is usually nonsense, not truth. So why are human >>> minds susceptible to this class of memes? >> >> That's why I think about religion as a mystic or transcendent "core" >> that only applies to a small "elite" and a broader control system. It >> could be that the ball is set in motion by the core, but this is then >> captured by more "worldly" people who see it as an excellent way for >> control. >> >>> Truth does not seem to be much involved. Consider how many people >> >> I think that perhaps we can learn something from the deep, meaningful >> experiences that some people have through religion, and maybe extract, >> and apply it in a non-religious way to other people to enrich and deepen >> the meaning of their lives. >> >> >>> were deeply affected by the QAnon bs. One of them was so affected >>> that he went there armed and insisted on being let into the (non >>> existent) basement. I think he got 5 years in jail. It was an >>> amazing story. >>> >>> Keith >>> >>> PS I once spent considerable time on a picket talking to a >>> scientologist. He noted that the members of this cult were subject to >>> scam after scam, particularly MLM scams. I suspect this is due to a >>> genetic trait for gullibility, i.e., you are born with it, though I >>> have speculated that people could be trained to be resistant to cults >>> and other scams. I would like to see someone investigate the genetic >>> backgrounds of cult members. It seems to me that people with Mormon >>> family backgrounds are over represented in scientology, but I don't >>> have numbers. (Mormons definitely sorted out the gullible.) >>> >>> >>>> I can?t just say that a magic unicorn controls the world by pissing on a magic globe and make a movement?maybe a small cult of idiots. But powerful religions are based on powerful truths. As I mentioned, monotheism had incredible power based on the simple truth ?everything looks different but it?s actually all one thing?. Animism before that was based on the simple truth ?different natural objects [gods] are different and have consistent patterns/behavior?. >>>> >>>> On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 3:46?AM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, 6 Aug 2024, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> There are alot of additional directions I could go in as to why early, primitive religions exist in terms of explaining and >>>>>> controlling your environment (or rather the appearance of control) but I think the crux of my answer is in my argument above. >>>>> >>>>> I agree. My bet would be that the origin is safety/control and >>>>> explanation. Eventually it led to science, and hence the antagonism >>>>> between religion and science. Religion feels threatened. >>>>> >>>>> I'd also add that it's a nice tool to control society and >>>>> ensure a homogeneous culture and cooperation. >>>>> >>>>> But within the phenomenon of religion, you also have the mystics, which >>>>> I think started with the above, but found their way to an incredibly >>>>> strong internal experience, which kind of lessened the need for safety >>>>> and explanation for them, but they have always been a tiny minority so >>>>> perhaps not so relevant for the original question. >>>>> >>>>>> Memento mori. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 7:58?PM Keith Henson wrote: >>>>>> The interesting question is why do humans have religions at all? I >>>>>> make a case that it is a side effect of selection for war. >>>>>> >>>>>> Religion is a class of mutually exclusive memes. I.e., it is seldom >>>>>> that a given person has more than one of them, so you don't expect >>>>>> someone who identifies as a Catholic to also be a Methodist. This >>>>>> brings you to the interesting conclusion that communism is a religion >>>>>> since being one makes it unlikely to have any of the common religious >>>>>> memes. >>>>>> >>>>>> This classification does not help with the question of why humans have >>>>>> (or are infested) with such memes. From how common this is, religious >>>>>> memes (or something related) must have been important to survival in >>>>>> the Stone Age. >>>>>> >>>>>> Religious memes seem to be descended from xenophobic memes. >>>>>> >>>>>> Xenophobic memes are the first step in the path to war. I think >>>>>> genetic selection for war is the origin of susceptibility to religious >>>>>> memes. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Keith >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to >>>>>> extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAPiwVB790bABKY%2BQYyAeQZQyJ4erjK3_B%2BVpdpaoycen3ZX5ZA%40mail.gmail.com. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat_______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From pharos at gmail.com Thu Aug 8 16:18:48 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2024 17:18:48 +0100 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Religion In-Reply-To: <9e29c0f6-4d31-97bb-7c6e-82bff4de3427@disroot.org> References: <1a60b374-fd22-ffac-1809-93fc01c96a63@disroot.org> <9e29c0f6-4d31-97bb-7c6e-82bff4de3427@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Aug 2024 at 16:23, efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > > Random side effect? >_______________________________________________ This article seems relevant - >From a review: Reg Morrison, in his work The Origin of Faith, suggests that the complex of customs, rituals, and faiths, which are often labeled as mystical, have been crucial for human survival. These behaviors may have helped in forming cohesive social groups and provided a framework for moral and ethical guidelines, which are essential for the survival of a species. Morrison argues that these behaviors are deeply embedded in our genetic makeup, serving as a counterbalance to the rational, analytical functions of the human cortex. ______________ BillK From pharos at gmail.com Fri Aug 9 09:46:48 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2024 10:46:48 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The allure of AI companions is hard to resist. Message-ID: We need to prepare for ?addictive intelligence? The allure of AI companions is hard to resist. Here?s how innovation in regulation can help protect people. By Robert Mahari & Pat Pataranutaporn August 5, 2024 Quote: It is no accident that internet platforms are addictive?deliberate design choices, known as ?dark patterns,? are made to maximize user engagement. We expect similar incentives to ultimately create AI companions that provide hedonism as a service. This raises two separate questions related to AI. What design choices will be used to make AI companions engaging and ultimately addictive? And how will these addictive companions affect the people who use them? --------------- BillK From atymes at gmail.com Fri Aug 9 11:46:00 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2024 07:46:00 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The allure of AI companions is hard to resist. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My wife and I have been noting how addicted we have become to each other. I can see attempts at a synthetic substitute, for those who do not find such a partner of their own (or are of an intellectual/emotional makeup that does not facilitate being such a partner, which is somewhat of a prerequisite to finding one). I can particularly see these used to seduce and coddle angry loners with shallow emotions and thoughts, for whom no deep adaptation is required (and thus, to whom relatively simple AIs would be able to connect), much like how sterile insects are released to keep certain infestations from spreading. Benevolent ones could attempt therapy to the point that the people might be able to be companions (possibly matchmade - even psychologically shaped into being good for each other - by these AIs); malevolent ones might start by coaxing their humans away from the ballot box and ultimately guide or trick them into suicide. On Fri, Aug 9, 2024, 5:49?AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > We need to prepare for ?addictive intelligence? > The allure of AI companions is hard to resist. Here?s how innovation > in regulation can help protect people. > By Robert Mahari & Pat Pataranutaporn August 5, 2024 > > < > https://www.technologyreview.com/2024/08/05/1095600/we-need-to-prepare-for-addictive-intelligence/ > > > > Quote: > It is no accident that internet platforms are addictive?deliberate > design choices, known as ?dark patterns,? are made to maximize user > engagement. We expect similar incentives to ultimately create AI > companions that provide hedonism as a service. > This raises two separate questions related to AI. > What design choices will be used to make AI companions engaging and > ultimately addictive? > And how will these addictive companions affect the people who use them? > --------------- > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Fri Aug 9 17:11:09 2024 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2024 13:11:09 -0400 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Religion In-Reply-To: <223f832a-f5b4-048e-451e-2aeabf9fed69@disroot.org> References: <1a60b374-fd22-ffac-1809-93fc01c96a63@disroot.org> <223f832a-f5b4-048e-451e-2aeabf9fed69@disroot.org> Message-ID: Well, I think western philosophy is widely spiritual, it's just not an organized religion, though very many philosophers have been religious. Daoism had its prophet in Laozi. Confucianism to me is not mystic, it's mostly an oeconomic system with already-extant chinese nature religion attached. I think nature religions are not from prophets but from small mystical experiences that come from a totally different way of thinking. When you're completely immersed in nature, you think with nature. This can happen to anyone experiencing natural glory, but when it is constant, the mysticism piles up On Thu, Aug 8, 2024 at 4:50?AM efc--- via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Wed, 7 Aug 2024, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: > > > Mysticism is the basis of religion. All religion starts with a > ?prophet? type who realizes some kind of deep truth about reality or > > society. This truth is so compelling to people that they continue to > listen and they spread the word. I can?t just say that a magic > > unicorn controls the world by pissing on a magic globe and make a > movement?maybe a small cult of idiots. But powerful religions are > > based on powerful truths. As I mentioned, monotheism had incredible > power based on the simple truth ?everything looks different but > > it?s actually all one thing?. Animism before that was based on the > simple truth ?different natural objects [gods] are different and > > have consistent patterns/behavior?. > > Mysticism I think fits nicely with monotheism due to its "unifying" > experience. I was thinking about mentioning it, but then I thought, what > about if we go further back? As you say, spirits, animism etc. Do you > still think those come from mystic experiences, or from accidents like "I > pet this rock, and I caught 2 fish today, why is that?". > > I think it is very uncontroversial to say that "modern" religions tend to > come from mysticism, but what about nature religions? Then you have > of course the grey areas of Daoism and Confucianism, which to me (but I'm > definitely not an expert on religion) seem to sit uncomfortably in the > line between philosophy and religion (daoism). I could accept that > Confucianism is leaning more towards philosophy, but I think they have > some kind of ancestor worship, don't they? > > > On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 3:46?AM efc--- via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, 6 Aug 2024, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > > There are alot of additional directions I could go in as to why > early, primitive religions exist in terms of explaining > > and > > > controlling your environment (or rather the appearance of > control) but I think the crux of my answer is in my argument > > above. > > > > I agree. My bet would be that the origin is safety/control and > > explanation. Eventually it led to science, and hence the antagonism > > between religion and science. Religion feels threatened. > > > > I'd also add that it's a nice tool to control society and > > ensure a homogeneous culture and cooperation. > > > > But within the phenomenon of religion, you also have the mystics, > which > > I think started with the above, but found their way to an > incredibly > > strong internal experience, which kind of lessened the need for > safety > > and explanation for them, but they have always been a tiny > minority so > > perhaps not so relevant for the original question. > > > > > Memento mori. > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 7:58?PM Keith Henson < > hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote: > > > The interesting question is why do humans have religions > at all? I > > > make a case that it is a side effect of selection for war. > > > > > > Religion is a class of mutually exclusive memes. I.e., it > is seldom > > > that a given person has more than one of them, so you > don't expect > > > someone who identifies as a Catholic to also be a > Methodist. This > > > brings you to the interesting conclusion that communism is > a religion > > > since being one makes it unlikely to have any of the > common religious > > > memes. > > > > > > This classification does not help with the question of why > humans have > > > (or are infested) with such memes. From how common this > is, religious > > > memes (or something related) must have been important to > survival in > > > the Stone Age. > > > > > > Religious memes seem to be descended from xenophobic memes. > > > > > > Xenophobic memes are the first step in the path to war. I > think > > > genetic selection for war is the origin of susceptibility > to religious > > > memes. > > > > > > > > > Keith > > > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to > the Google Groups "extropolis" group. > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails > from it, send an email to > > > extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > > > To view this discussion on the web visit > > > > > > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAPiwVB790bABKY%2BQYyAeQZQyJ4erjK3_B%2BVpdpaoycen3ZX5ZA%40mail.gmail.com > . > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hibbard at wisc.edu Fri Aug 9 17:44:30 2024 From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2024 17:44:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] The allure of AI companions is hard to resist. Message-ID: <9b68952e-9b82-5f7f-8d2a-2895849425a5@wisc.edu> It is no coinicence that much of the most advanced AI research is being done by companies in the advertsing business. Persuasion is the killer application for AI. Regulation is under the control of politicians who are very much in the persuasion business so AI regulation will be susceptible to corruption. The most important regulation will be transparency requirements to expose corruption. AI companions will be great tools for persuasion. > We need to prepare for ?addictive intelligence? > The allure of AI companions is hard to resist. Here?s how innovation > in regulation can help protect people. > By Robert Mahari & Pat Pataranutaporn August 5, 2024 > > > > Quote: > It is no accident that internet platforms are addictive?deliberate > design choices, known as ?dark patterns,? are made to maximize user > engagement. We expect similar incentives to ultimately create AI > companions that provide hedonism as a service. > This raises two separate questions related to AI. > What design choices will be used to make AI companions engaging and > ultimately addictive? > And how will these addictive companions affect the people who use them? > --------------- > > BillK From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Aug 9 19:57:00 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2024 12:57:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Religion In-Reply-To: References: <1a60b374-fd22-ffac-1809-93fc01c96a63@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 12:27?PM William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > Humans have a great ability to perceive correlations among and between things and there does not have to be any cause and effect there. This is not hard to understand in gene selection terms. When the cost is high for failing to make the correct connection and the cost is low for being wrong, a trait for jumping to conclusions will be selected. > So some will be true and some will be superstitions. Now just where and how did metaphysics get started? Intelligence has been selected. Many things, including infectious even fatal memes, fall out of this new ecosystem of communicating minds. Charles Sheffield once wrote an SF story that included a bit about some aliens who were infected with fatal memes. They could only exist in small groups or a meme would arise in the group and wipe them out. > This is the mystery to me: how did we ever think of things that have no physical basis that we know of? Or a different kind of physical basis? bill w Side effect of intelligence. Kieth > > On Thu, Aug 8, 2024 at 9:55?AM Keith Henson wrote: >> >> The last couple of posts have invoked mysticism. OK, how did this >> human trait evolve? You have only direct selection of the trait or as >> a side effect of something else that was selected. >> >> Keith >> >> On Thu, Aug 8, 2024 at 1:54?AM efc--- via extropy-chat >> wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> > On Wed, 7 Aug 2024, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: >> > >> > > On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 4:33?PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat >> > > wrote: >> > >> >> > >> Mysticism is the basis of religion. All religion starts with a ?prophet? type who realizes some kind of deep truth about reality or society. >> > > >> > > Two recent US religions originated from women who had temporal lobe >> > > brain damage. >> > >> > Which ones? Would be an interesting read. >> > >> > >> This truth is so compelling to people that they continue to listen and they spread the word. >> > > >> > > As you well know, it is usually nonsense, not truth. So why are human >> > > minds susceptible to this class of memes? >> > >> > That's why I think about religion as a mystic or transcendent "core" >> > that only applies to a small "elite" and a broader control system. It >> > could be that the ball is set in motion by the core, but this is then >> > captured by more "worldly" people who see it as an excellent way for >> > control. >> > >> > > Truth does not seem to be much involved. Consider how many people >> > >> > I think that perhaps we can learn something from the deep, meaningful >> > experiences that some people have through religion, and maybe extract, >> > and apply it in a non-religious way to other people to enrich and deepen >> > the meaning of their lives. >> > >> > >> > > were deeply affected by the QAnon bs. One of them was so affected >> > > that he went there armed and insisted on being let into the (non >> > > existent) basement. I think he got 5 years in jail. It was an >> > > amazing story. >> > > >> > > Keith >> > > >> > > PS I once spent considerable time on a picket talking to a >> > > scientologist. He noted that the members of this cult were subject to >> > > scam after scam, particularly MLM scams. I suspect this is due to a >> > > genetic trait for gullibility, i.e., you are born with it, though I >> > > have speculated that people could be trained to be resistant to cults >> > > and other scams. I would like to see someone investigate the genetic >> > > backgrounds of cult members. It seems to me that people with Mormon >> > > family backgrounds are over represented in scientology, but I don't >> > > have numbers. (Mormons definitely sorted out the gullible.) >> > > >> > > >> > >> I can?t just say that a magic unicorn controls the world by pissing on a magic globe and make a movement?maybe a small cult of idiots. But powerful religions are based on powerful truths. As I mentioned, monotheism had incredible power based on the simple truth ?everything looks different but it?s actually all one thing?. Animism before that was based on the simple truth ?different natural objects [gods] are different and have consistent patterns/behavior?. >> > >> >> > >> On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 3:46?AM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> On Tue, 6 Aug 2024, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: >> > >>> >> > >>> > There are alot of additional directions I could go in as to why early, primitive religions exist in terms of explaining and >> > >>> > controlling your environment (or rather the appearance of control) but I think the crux of my answer is in my argument above. >> > >>> >> > >>> I agree. My bet would be that the origin is safety/control and >> > >>> explanation. Eventually it led to science, and hence the antagonism >> > >>> between religion and science. Religion feels threatened. >> > >>> >> > >>> I'd also add that it's a nice tool to control society and >> > >>> ensure a homogeneous culture and cooperation. >> > >>> >> > >>> But within the phenomenon of religion, you also have the mystics, which >> > >>> I think started with the above, but found their way to an incredibly >> > >>> strong internal experience, which kind of lessened the need for safety >> > >>> and explanation for them, but they have always been a tiny minority so >> > >>> perhaps not so relevant for the original question. >> > >>> >> > >>> > Memento mori. >> > >>> > >> > >>> > On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 7:58?PM Keith Henson wrote: >> > >>> > The interesting question is why do humans have religions at all? I >> > >>> > make a case that it is a side effect of selection for war. >> > >>> > >> > >>> > Religion is a class of mutually exclusive memes. I.e., it is seldom >> > >>> > that a given person has more than one of them, so you don't expect >> > >>> > someone who identifies as a Catholic to also be a Methodist. This >> > >>> > brings you to the interesting conclusion that communism is a religion >> > >>> > since being one makes it unlikely to have any of the common religious >> > >>> > memes. >> > >>> > >> > >>> > This classification does not help with the question of why humans have >> > >>> > (or are infested) with such memes. From how common this is, religious >> > >>> > memes (or something related) must have been important to survival in >> > >>> > the Stone Age. >> > >>> > >> > >>> > Religious memes seem to be descended from xenophobic memes. >> > >>> > >> > >>> > Xenophobic memes are the first step in the path to war. I think >> > >>> > genetic selection for war is the origin of susceptibility to religious >> > >>> > memes. >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > Keith >> > >>> > >> > >>> > -- >> > >>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. >> > >>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to >> > >>> > extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >> > >>> > To view this discussion on the web visit >> > >>> > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAPiwVB790bABKY%2BQYyAeQZQyJ4erjK3_B%2BVpdpaoycen3ZX5ZA%40mail.gmail.com. >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> >_______________________________________________ >> > >>> extropy-chat mailing list >> > >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> > >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > >> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> > >> extropy-chat mailing list >> > >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> > >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > extropy-chat mailing list >> > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat_______________________________________________ >> > extropy-chat mailing list >> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAPiwVB5OhWcT9psZi28FpH5a6XQy%3DYN8ufWj8QeAGkZX58oCfQ%40mail.gmail.com. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAO%2BxQEbRngV7e5Am0MDh7iiu-%3DYNKYrBBbxqDduHoaD7E5x_oQ%40mail.gmail.com. From interzone at gmail.com Fri Aug 9 20:32:34 2024 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2024 16:32:34 -0400 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Religion In-Reply-To: References: <1a60b374-fd22-ffac-1809-93fc01c96a63@disroot.org> <223f832a-f5b4-048e-451e-2aeabf9fed69@disroot.org> Message-ID: Quick bone to pick on Conficianism...I used to think the same thing, but his commentaries on the I Ching had an extremely heavy and important influence on its current incarnation, and should not be discounted on the mysticism side. I wasn't aware of this until I went pretty deeply on the I Ching and the various flavors of it, including a Daoist one. As an aside, I have found the I Ching extremely valuable even as an atheist, and would recommend exploring it to anyone with even a passing curiosity about it. Philip K. Dick was also influenced heavily by it. On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 1:12?PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Well, I think western philosophy is widely spiritual, it's just not an > organized religion, though very many philosophers have been religious. > > Daoism had its prophet in Laozi. Confucianism to me is not mystic, it's > mostly an oeconomic system with already-extant chinese nature religion > attached. > > I think nature religions are not from prophets but from small mystical > experiences that come from a totally different way of thinking. When > you're completely immersed in nature, you think with nature. This can > happen to anyone experiencing natural glory, but when it is constant, the > mysticism piles up > > On Thu, Aug 8, 2024 at 4:50?AM efc--- via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Wed, 7 Aug 2024, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> > Mysticism is the basis of religion. All religion starts with a >> ?prophet? type who realizes some kind of deep truth about reality or >> > society. This truth is so compelling to people that they continue to >> listen and they spread the word. I can?t just say that a magic >> > unicorn controls the world by pissing on a magic globe and make a >> movement?maybe a small cult of idiots. But powerful religions are >> > based on powerful truths. As I mentioned, monotheism had incredible >> power based on the simple truth ?everything looks different but >> > it?s actually all one thing?. Animism before that was based on the >> simple truth ?different natural objects [gods] are different and >> > have consistent patterns/behavior?. >> >> Mysticism I think fits nicely with monotheism due to its "unifying" >> experience. I was thinking about mentioning it, but then I thought, what >> about if we go further back? As you say, spirits, animism etc. Do you >> still think those come from mystic experiences, or from accidents like "I >> pet this rock, and I caught 2 fish today, why is that?". >> >> I think it is very uncontroversial to say that "modern" religions tend to >> come from mysticism, but what about nature religions? Then you have >> of course the grey areas of Daoism and Confucianism, which to me (but I'm >> definitely not an expert on religion) seem to sit uncomfortably in the >> line between philosophy and religion (daoism). I could accept that >> Confucianism is leaning more towards philosophy, but I think they have >> some kind of ancestor worship, don't they? >> >> > On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 3:46?AM efc--- via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> > >> > >> > On Tue, 6 Aug 2024, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: >> > >> > > There are alot of additional directions I could go in as to why >> early, primitive religions exist in terms of explaining >> > and >> > > controlling your environment (or rather the appearance of >> control) but I think the crux of my answer is in my argument >> > above. >> > >> > I agree. My bet would be that the origin is safety/control and >> > explanation. Eventually it led to science, and hence the >> antagonism >> > between religion and science. Religion feels threatened. >> > >> > I'd also add that it's a nice tool to control society and >> > ensure a homogeneous culture and cooperation. >> > >> > But within the phenomenon of religion, you also have the mystics, >> which >> > I think started with the above, but found their way to an >> incredibly >> > strong internal experience, which kind of lessened the need for >> safety >> > and explanation for them, but they have always been a tiny >> minority so >> > perhaps not so relevant for the original question. >> > >> > > Memento mori. >> > > >> > > On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 7:58?PM Keith Henson < >> hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote: >> > > The interesting question is why do humans have religions >> at all? I >> > > make a case that it is a side effect of selection for war. >> > > >> > > Religion is a class of mutually exclusive memes. I.e., it >> is seldom >> > > that a given person has more than one of them, so you >> don't expect >> > > someone who identifies as a Catholic to also be a >> Methodist. This >> > > brings you to the interesting conclusion that communism >> is a religion >> > > since being one makes it unlikely to have any of the >> common religious >> > > memes. >> > > >> > > This classification does not help with the question of >> why humans have >> > > (or are infested) with such memes. From how common this >> is, religious >> > > memes (or something related) must have been important to >> survival in >> > > the Stone Age. >> > > >> > > Religious memes seem to be descended from xenophobic >> memes. >> > > >> > > Xenophobic memes are the first step in the path to war. I >> think >> > > genetic selection for war is the origin of susceptibility >> to religious >> > > memes. >> > > >> > > >> > > Keith >> > > >> > > -- >> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to >> the Google Groups "extropolis" group. >> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >> from it, send an email to >> > > extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >> > > To view this discussion on the web visit >> > > >> > >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAPiwVB790bABKY%2BQYyAeQZQyJ4erjK3_B%2BVpdpaoycen3ZX5ZA%40mail.gmail.com >> . >> > > >> > > >> > >_______________________________________________ >> > extropy-chat mailing list >> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Fri Aug 9 21:09:53 2024 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2024 17:09:53 -0400 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Religion In-Reply-To: References: <1a60b374-fd22-ffac-1809-93fc01c96a63@disroot.org> <223f832a-f5b4-048e-451e-2aeabf9fed69@disroot.org> Message-ID: Interesting, I didn?t know that, which I?m kind of embarrassed about, because I?m really into it and have like 15 years of collected readings I?ve done. Re: that, this site is an incredible I Ching reference: https://jamesdekorne.com/GBCh/GBCh.htm There?s also a great one with original chinese including seal script, my friend who speaks chinese showed me, I can find On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 4:34?PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Quick bone to pick on Conficianism...I used to think the same thing, but > his commentaries on the I Ching had an extremely heavy and important > influence on its current incarnation, and should not be discounted on the > mysticism side. > > I wasn't aware of this until I went pretty deeply on the I Ching and the > various flavors of it, including a Daoist one. As an aside, I have found > the I Ching extremely valuable even as an atheist, and would recommend > exploring it to anyone with even a passing curiosity about it. > > Philip K. Dick was also influenced heavily by it. > > > > On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 1:12?PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Well, I think western philosophy is widely spiritual, it's just not an >> organized religion, though very many philosophers have been religious. >> >> Daoism had its prophet in Laozi. Confucianism to me is not mystic, it's >> mostly an oeconomic system with already-extant chinese nature religion >> attached. >> >> I think nature religions are not from prophets but from small mystical >> experiences that come from a totally different way of thinking. When >> you're completely immersed in nature, you think with nature. This can >> happen to anyone experiencing natural glory, but when it is constant, the >> mysticism piles up >> >> On Thu, Aug 8, 2024 at 4:50?AM efc--- via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, 7 Aug 2024, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> > Mysticism is the basis of religion. All religion starts with a >>> ?prophet? type who realizes some kind of deep truth about reality or >>> > society. This truth is so compelling to people that they continue to >>> listen and they spread the word. I can?t just say that a magic >>> > unicorn controls the world by pissing on a magic globe and make a >>> movement?maybe a small cult of idiots. But powerful religions are >>> > based on powerful truths. As I mentioned, monotheism had incredible >>> power based on the simple truth ?everything looks different but >>> > it?s actually all one thing?. Animism before that was based on the >>> simple truth ?different natural objects [gods] are different and >>> > have consistent patterns/behavior?. >>> >>> Mysticism I think fits nicely with monotheism due to its "unifying" >>> experience. I was thinking about mentioning it, but then I thought, what >>> about if we go further back? As you say, spirits, animism etc. Do you >>> still think those come from mystic experiences, or from accidents like >>> "I >>> pet this rock, and I caught 2 fish today, why is that?". >>> >>> I think it is very uncontroversial to say that "modern" religions tend >>> to >>> come from mysticism, but what about nature religions? Then you have >>> of course the grey areas of Daoism and Confucianism, which to me (but >>> I'm >>> definitely not an expert on religion) seem to sit uncomfortably in the >>> line between philosophy and religion (daoism). I could accept that >>> Confucianism is leaning more towards philosophy, but I think they have >>> some kind of ancestor worship, don't they? >>> >>> > On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 3:46?AM efc--- via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> > >>> > >>> > On Tue, 6 Aug 2024, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: >>> > >>> > > There are alot of additional directions I could go in as to >>> why early, primitive religions exist in terms of explaining >>> > and >>> > > controlling your environment (or rather the appearance of >>> control) but I think the crux of my answer is in my argument >>> > above. >>> > >>> > I agree. My bet would be that the origin is safety/control and >>> > explanation. Eventually it led to science, and hence the >>> antagonism >>> > between religion and science. Religion feels threatened. >>> > >>> > I'd also add that it's a nice tool to control society and >>> > ensure a homogeneous culture and cooperation. >>> > >>> > But within the phenomenon of religion, you also have the >>> mystics, which >>> > I think started with the above, but found their way to an >>> incredibly >>> > strong internal experience, which kind of lessened the need for >>> safety >>> > and explanation for them, but they have always been a tiny >>> minority so >>> > perhaps not so relevant for the original question. >>> > >>> > > Memento mori. >>> > > >>> > > On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 7:58?PM Keith Henson < >>> hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote: >>> > > The interesting question is why do humans have religions >>> at all? I >>> > > make a case that it is a side effect of selection for >>> war. >>> > > >>> > > Religion is a class of mutually exclusive memes. I.e., >>> it is seldom >>> > > that a given person has more than one of them, so you >>> don't expect >>> > > someone who identifies as a Catholic to also be a >>> Methodist. This >>> > > brings you to the interesting conclusion that communism >>> is a religion >>> > > since being one makes it unlikely to have any of the >>> common religious >>> > > memes. >>> > > >>> > > This classification does not help with the question of >>> why humans have >>> > > (or are infested) with such memes. From how common this >>> is, religious >>> > > memes (or something related) must have been important to >>> survival in >>> > > the Stone Age. >>> > > >>> > > Religious memes seem to be descended from xenophobic >>> memes. >>> > > >>> > > Xenophobic memes are the first step in the path to war. >>> I think >>> > > genetic selection for war is the origin of >>> susceptibility to religious >>> > > memes. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Keith >>> > > >>> > > -- >>> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to >>> the Google Groups "extropolis" group. >>> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>> from it, send an email to >>> > > extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >>> > > To view this discussion on the web visit >>> > > >>> > >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAPiwVB790bABKY%2BQYyAeQZQyJ4erjK3_B%2BVpdpaoycen3ZX5ZA%40mail.gmail.com >>> . >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >_______________________________________________ >>> > extropy-chat mailing list >>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> > >>> > >>> >_______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Aug 9 21:12:51 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2024 14:12:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Religion In-Reply-To: References: <1a60b374-fd22-ffac-1809-93fc01c96a63@disroot.org> <223f832a-f5b4-048e-451e-2aeabf9fed69@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 1:34?PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: > > Quick bone to pick on Conficianism...I used to think the same thing, but his commentaries on the I Ching had an extremely heavy and important influence on its current incarnation, and should not be discounted on the mysticism side. I rate the I Ching in the same class as astrology. But the question is still, why do some memes do well in inecting human minds/brains. Keith > I wasn't aware of this until I went pretty deeply on the I Ching and the various flavors of it, including a Daoist one. As an aside, I have found the I Ching extremely valuable even as an atheist, and would recommend exploring it to anyone with even a passing curiosity about it. > > Philip K. Dick was also influenced heavily by it. > > > > On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 1:12?PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> Well, I think western philosophy is widely spiritual, it's just not an organized religion, though very many philosophers have been religious. >> >> Daoism had its prophet in Laozi. Confucianism to me is not mystic, it's mostly an oeconomic system with already-extant chinese nature religion attached. >> >> I think nature religions are not from prophets but from small mystical experiences that come from a totally different way of thinking. When you're completely immersed in nature, you think with nature. This can happen to anyone experiencing natural glory, but when it is constant, the mysticism piles up >> >> On Thu, Aug 8, 2024 at 4:50?AM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, 7 Aug 2024, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> > Mysticism is the basis of religion. All religion starts with a ?prophet? type who realizes some kind of deep truth about reality or >>> > society. This truth is so compelling to people that they continue to listen and they spread the word. I can?t just say that a magic >>> > unicorn controls the world by pissing on a magic globe and make a movement?maybe a small cult of idiots. But powerful religions are >>> > based on powerful truths. As I mentioned, monotheism had incredible power based on the simple truth ?everything looks different but >>> > it?s actually all one thing?. Animism before that was based on the simple truth ?different natural objects [gods] are different and >>> > have consistent patterns/behavior?. >>> >>> Mysticism I think fits nicely with monotheism due to its "unifying" >>> experience. I was thinking about mentioning it, but then I thought, what >>> about if we go further back? As you say, spirits, animism etc. Do you >>> still think those come from mystic experiences, or from accidents like "I >>> pet this rock, and I caught 2 fish today, why is that?". >>> >>> I think it is very uncontroversial to say that "modern" religions tend to >>> come from mysticism, but what about nature religions? Then you have >>> of course the grey areas of Daoism and Confucianism, which to me (but I'm >>> definitely not an expert on religion) seem to sit uncomfortably in the >>> line between philosophy and religion (daoism). I could accept that >>> Confucianism is leaning more towards philosophy, but I think they have >>> some kind of ancestor worship, don't they? >>> >>> > On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 3:46?AM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: >>> > >>> > >>> > On Tue, 6 Aug 2024, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: >>> > >>> > > There are alot of additional directions I could go in as to why early, primitive religions exist in terms of explaining >>> > and >>> > > controlling your environment (or rather the appearance of control) but I think the crux of my answer is in my argument >>> > above. >>> > >>> > I agree. My bet would be that the origin is safety/control and >>> > explanation. Eventually it led to science, and hence the antagonism >>> > between religion and science. Religion feels threatened. >>> > >>> > I'd also add that it's a nice tool to control society and >>> > ensure a homogeneous culture and cooperation. >>> > >>> > But within the phenomenon of religion, you also have the mystics, which >>> > I think started with the above, but found their way to an incredibly >>> > strong internal experience, which kind of lessened the need for safety >>> > and explanation for them, but they have always been a tiny minority so >>> > perhaps not so relevant for the original question. >>> > >>> > > Memento mori. >>> > > >>> > > On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 7:58?PM Keith Henson wrote: >>> > > The interesting question is why do humans have religions at all? I >>> > > make a case that it is a side effect of selection for war. >>> > > >>> > > Religion is a class of mutually exclusive memes. I.e., it is seldom >>> > > that a given person has more than one of them, so you don't expect >>> > > someone who identifies as a Catholic to also be a Methodist. This >>> > > brings you to the interesting conclusion that communism is a religion >>> > > since being one makes it unlikely to have any of the common religious >>> > > memes. >>> > > >>> > > This classification does not help with the question of why humans have >>> > > (or are infested) with such memes. From how common this is, religious >>> > > memes (or something related) must have been important to survival in >>> > > the Stone Age. >>> > > >>> > > Religious memes seem to be descended from xenophobic memes. >>> > > >>> > > Xenophobic memes are the first step in the path to war. I think >>> > > genetic selection for war is the origin of susceptibility to religious >>> > > memes. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Keith >>> > > >>> > > -- >>> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. >>> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to >>> > > extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >>> > > To view this discussion on the web visit >>> > > >>> > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAPiwVB790bABKY%2BQYyAeQZQyJ4erjK3_B%2BVpdpaoycen3ZX5ZA%40mail.gmail.com. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >_______________________________________________ >>> > extropy-chat mailing list >>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> > >>> > >>> >_______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From efc at disroot.org Fri Aug 9 21:39:48 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2024 23:39:48 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Religion In-Reply-To: References: <1a60b374-fd22-ffac-1809-93fc01c96a63@disroot.org> <223f832a-f5b4-048e-451e-2aeabf9fed69@disroot.org> Message-ID: <27c4e16e-c3f4-1837-75bc-0f2c27e5fcdf@disroot.org> On Fri, 9 Aug 2024, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: > Quick bone to pick on Conficianism...I used to think the same thing, but his commentaries on the I Ching had an extremely heavy and > important influence on its current incarnation, and should not be discounted on the mysticism side. > I wasn't aware of this until I went pretty deeply on the I Ching and the various flavors of it, including a Daoist one.? ?As an > aside, I have found the I Ching extremely valuable even as an atheist, and would recommend exploring it to anyone with even a passing > curiosity about it. How has it been valuable? I have read parts of it, but have not found it valuable except perhaps as an aid for creative writing if I reaally stretch the word "value". > Philip K. Dick was also influenced heavily by it. > > > > On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 1:12?PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: > Well, I think western philosophy is widely spiritual, it's just not an organized religion, though very many philosophers > have been religious. > Daoism had its prophet in Laozi.? Confucianism to me is not mystic, it's mostly an oeconomic?system with already-extant chinese > nature religion attached. > > I think nature religions are not from prophets but from small mystical experiences that come from a totally different way of > thinking.? When you're completely immersed in nature, you think with nature.? This can happen to anyone experiencing natural > glory, but when it is constant, the mysticism piles up? > > On Thu, Aug 8, 2024 at 4:50?AM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > > > On Wed, 7 Aug 2024, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: > > > Mysticism is the basis of religion.? All religion starts with a ?prophet? type who realizes some kind of deep > truth about reality or > > society.? This truth is so compelling to people that they continue to listen and they spread the word.? I can?t > just say that a magic > > unicorn controls the world by pissing on a magic globe and make a movement?maybe a small cult of idiots.? But > powerful religions are > > based on powerful truths.? As I mentioned, monotheism had incredible power based on the simple truth ?everything > looks different but > > it?s actually all one thing?.? Animism before that was based on the simple truth ?different natural objects > [gods] are different and > > have consistent patterns/behavior?. > > Mysticism I think fits nicely with monotheism due to its "unifying" > experience. I was thinking about mentioning it, but then I thought, what > about if we go further back? As you say, spirits, animism etc. Do you > still think those come from mystic experiences, or from accidents like "I > pet this rock, and I caught 2 fish today, why is that?". > > I think it is very uncontroversial to say that "modern" religions tend to > come from mysticism, but what about nature religions? Then you have > of course the grey areas of Daoism and Confucianism, which to me (but I'm > definitely not an expert on religion) seem to sit uncomfortably in the > line between philosophy and religion (daoism). I could accept that > Confucianism is leaning more towards philosophy, but I think they have > some kind of ancestor worship, don't they? > > > On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 3:46?AM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > > >? ? ? ?On Tue, 6 Aug 2024, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: > > > >? ? ? ?> There are alot of additional directions I could go in as to why early, primitive religions exist in terms > of explaining > >? ? ? ?and > >? ? ? ?> controlling your environment (or rather the appearance of control) but I think the crux of my answer is > in my argument > >? ? ? ?above. > > > >? ? ? ?I agree. My bet would be that the origin is safety/control and > >? ? ? ?explanation. Eventually it led to science, and hence the antagonism > >? ? ? ?between religion and science. Religion feels threatened. > > > >? ? ? ?I'd also add that it's a nice tool to control society and > >? ? ? ?ensure a homogeneous culture and cooperation. > > > >? ? ? ?But within the phenomenon of religion, you also have the mystics, which > >? ? ? ?I think started with the above, but found their way to an incredibly > >? ? ? ?strong internal experience, which kind of lessened the need for safety > >? ? ? ?and explanation for them, but they have always been a tiny minority so > >? ? ? ?perhaps not so relevant for the original question. > > > >? ? ? ?> Memento mori. > >? ? ? ?> > >? ? ? ?> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 7:58?PM Keith Henson wrote: > >? ? ? ?>? ? ? ?The interesting question is why do humans have religions at all? I > >? ? ? ?>? ? ? ?make a case that it is a side effect of selection for war. > >? ? ? ?> > >? ? ? ?>? ? ? ?Religion is a class of mutually exclusive memes. I.e., it is seldom > >? ? ? ?>? ? ? ?that a given person has more than one of them, so you don't expect > >? ? ? ?>? ? ? ?someone who identifies as a Catholic to also be a Methodist. This > >? ? ? ?>? ? ? ?brings you to the interesting conclusion that communism is a religion > >? ? ? ?>? ? ? ?since being one makes it unlikely to have any of the common religious > >? ? ? ?>? ? ? ?memes. > >? ? ? ?> > >? ? ? ?>? ? ? ?This classification does not help with the question of why humans have > >? ? ? ?>? ? ? ?(or are infested) with such memes. From how common this is, religious > >? ? ? ?>? ? ? ?memes (or something related) must have been important to survival in > >? ? ? ?>? ? ? ?the Stone Age. > >? ? ? ?> > >? ? ? ?>? ? ? ?Religious memes seem to be descended from xenophobic memes. > >? ? ? ?> > >? ? ? ?>? ? ? ?Xenophobic memes are the first step in the path to war. I think > >? ? ? ?>? ? ? ?genetic selection for war is the origin of susceptibility to religious > >? ? ? ?>? ? ? ?memes. > >? ? ? ?> > >? ? ? ?> > >? ? ? ?>? ? ? ?Keith > >? ? ? ?> > >? ? ? ?>? ? ? ?-- > >? ? ? ?>? ? ? ?You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. > >? ? ? ?>? ? ? ?To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to > >? ? ? ?>? ? ? ?extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > >? ? ? ?>? ? ? ?To view this discussion on the web visit > >? ? ? ?>? ? ? > >? ? ? > ??https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAPiwVB790bABKY%2BQYyAeQZQyJ4erjK3_B%2BVpdpaoycen3ZX5ZA%40mail.gmail.com. > >? ? ? ?> > >? ? ? ?> > >? ? ? ?>_______________________________________________ > >? ? ? ?extropy-chat mailing list > >? ? ? ?extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >? ? ? ?http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > From efc at disroot.org Fri Aug 9 21:42:08 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2024 23:42:08 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Religion In-Reply-To: References: <1a60b374-fd22-ffac-1809-93fc01c96a63@disroot.org> <223f832a-f5b4-048e-451e-2aeabf9fed69@disroot.org> Message-ID: <56502fc2-a719-e96b-fa57-2fee6f66632b@disroot.org> On Fri, 9 Aug 2024, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 1:34?PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > wrote: >> >> Quick bone to pick on Conficianism...I used to think the same thing, but his commentaries on the I Ching had an extremely heavy and important influence on its current incarnation, and should not be discounted on the mysticism side. > > I rate the I Ching in the same class as astrology. > > But the question is still, why do some memes do well in inecting human > minds/brains. This is the billion dollar question. Another question is... would you really like it if _one_ person found the answer to that question? ;) Jokes aside, from time to time I do some PR/marketing work, and it is quite a fun challenge to try and come up with a spin or a bounce of a current topic, to propel something you wrote into the national newspapers. Actually... it's almost not enough to bounce of current events, the gold standard is to actually anticipate the wave a bit. That makes it much easier to get article placements. > Keith > >> I wasn't aware of this until I went pretty deeply on the I Ching and the various flavors of it, including a Daoist one. As an aside, I have found the I Ching extremely valuable even as an atheist, and would recommend exploring it to anyone with even a passing curiosity about it. >> >> Philip K. Dick was also influenced heavily by it. >> >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 1:12?PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> Well, I think western philosophy is widely spiritual, it's just not an organized religion, though very many philosophers have been religious. >>> >>> Daoism had its prophet in Laozi. Confucianism to me is not mystic, it's mostly an oeconomic system with already-extant chinese nature religion attached. >>> >>> I think nature religions are not from prophets but from small mystical experiences that come from a totally different way of thinking. When you're completely immersed in nature, you think with nature. This can happen to anyone experiencing natural glory, but when it is constant, the mysticism piles up >>> >>> On Thu, Aug 8, 2024 at 4:50?AM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, 7 Aug 2024, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: >>>> >>>> > Mysticism is the basis of religion. All religion starts with a ?prophet? type who realizes some kind of deep truth about reality or >>>> > society. This truth is so compelling to people that they continue to listen and they spread the word. I can?t just say that a magic >>>> > unicorn controls the world by pissing on a magic globe and make a movement?maybe a small cult of idiots. But powerful religions are >>>> > based on powerful truths. As I mentioned, monotheism had incredible power based on the simple truth ?everything looks different but >>>> > it?s actually all one thing?. Animism before that was based on the simple truth ?different natural objects [gods] are different and >>>> > have consistent patterns/behavior?. >>>> >>>> Mysticism I think fits nicely with monotheism due to its "unifying" >>>> experience. I was thinking about mentioning it, but then I thought, what >>>> about if we go further back? As you say, spirits, animism etc. Do you >>>> still think those come from mystic experiences, or from accidents like "I >>>> pet this rock, and I caught 2 fish today, why is that?". >>>> >>>> I think it is very uncontroversial to say that "modern" religions tend to >>>> come from mysticism, but what about nature religions? Then you have >>>> of course the grey areas of Daoism and Confucianism, which to me (but I'm >>>> definitely not an expert on religion) seem to sit uncomfortably in the >>>> line between philosophy and religion (daoism). I could accept that >>>> Confucianism is leaning more towards philosophy, but I think they have >>>> some kind of ancestor worship, don't they? >>>> >>>> > On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 3:46?AM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > On Tue, 6 Aug 2024, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: >>>> > >>>> > > There are alot of additional directions I could go in as to why early, primitive religions exist in terms of explaining >>>> > and >>>> > > controlling your environment (or rather the appearance of control) but I think the crux of my answer is in my argument >>>> > above. >>>> > >>>> > I agree. My bet would be that the origin is safety/control and >>>> > explanation. Eventually it led to science, and hence the antagonism >>>> > between religion and science. Religion feels threatened. >>>> > >>>> > I'd also add that it's a nice tool to control society and >>>> > ensure a homogeneous culture and cooperation. >>>> > >>>> > But within the phenomenon of religion, you also have the mystics, which >>>> > I think started with the above, but found their way to an incredibly >>>> > strong internal experience, which kind of lessened the need for safety >>>> > and explanation for them, but they have always been a tiny minority so >>>> > perhaps not so relevant for the original question. >>>> > >>>> > > Memento mori. >>>> > > >>>> > > On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 7:58?PM Keith Henson wrote: >>>> > > The interesting question is why do humans have religions at all? I >>>> > > make a case that it is a side effect of selection for war. >>>> > > >>>> > > Religion is a class of mutually exclusive memes. I.e., it is seldom >>>> > > that a given person has more than one of them, so you don't expect >>>> > > someone who identifies as a Catholic to also be a Methodist. This >>>> > > brings you to the interesting conclusion that communism is a religion >>>> > > since being one makes it unlikely to have any of the common religious >>>> > > memes. >>>> > > >>>> > > This classification does not help with the question of why humans have >>>> > > (or are infested) with such memes. From how common this is, religious >>>> > > memes (or something related) must have been important to survival in >>>> > > the Stone Age. >>>> > > >>>> > > Religious memes seem to be descended from xenophobic memes. >>>> > > >>>> > > Xenophobic memes are the first step in the path to war. I think >>>> > > genetic selection for war is the origin of susceptibility to religious >>>> > > memes. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > Keith >>>> > > >>>> > > -- >>>> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. >>>> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to >>>> > > extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >>>> > > To view this discussion on the web visit >>>> > > >>>> > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAPiwVB790bABKY%2BQYyAeQZQyJ4erjK3_B%2BVpdpaoycen3ZX5ZA%40mail.gmail.com. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > >_______________________________________________ >>>> > extropy-chat mailing list >>>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >_______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From pharos at gmail.com Fri Aug 9 22:29:38 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2024 23:29:38 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The allure of AI companions is hard to resist. In-Reply-To: <9b68952e-9b82-5f7f-8d2a-2895849425a5@wisc.edu> References: <9b68952e-9b82-5f7f-8d2a-2895849425a5@wisc.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Aug 2024 at 18:46, Bill Hibbard via extropy-chat wrote: > > It is no coinicence that much of the most advanced AI research > is being done by companies in the advertsing business. Persuasion > is the killer application for AI. Regulation is under the control > of politicians who are very much in the persuasion business so AI > regulation will be susceptible to corruption. The most important > regulation will be transparency requirements to expose corruption. > > AI companions will be great tools for persuasion. > _______________________________________________ Yes, that's the main objective of these AI 'friends'. BillK See - AI ?Companions? are Patient, Funny, Upbeat ? and Probably Rewiring Kids? Brains The proliferation of friendly, often sexually suggestive, chatbots is ?making it so easy to make a bad choice,? one observer says. By Greg Toppo August 7, 2024 Quotes: The AI companions both mimic our real relationships and seek to improve upon them: Users most often text-message their AI pals on smartphones, imitating the daily routines of platonic and romantic relationships. But unlike their real counterparts, the AI friends are programmed to be studiously upbeat, never critical, with a great sense of humor and a healthy, philosophical perspective. A few premium, NSFW models also display a ready-made lust for, well, lust. -------------- All of this worries observers who see in these new tools the seeds of a rewiring of young people?s social brains. AI companions, they say, are surely wreaking havoc on teens? ideas around consent, emotional attachment and realistic expectations of relationships. Sam Hiner, executive director of the Young People?s Alliance, an advocacy group led by college students focused on on the mental health implications of social media, said tech ?has this power to connect to people, and yet these major design features are being leveraged to actually make people more lonely, by drawing them towards an app rather than fostering real connection.? ------------------------- From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Aug 10 00:50:10 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2024 17:50:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Religion In-Reply-To: <56502fc2-a719-e96b-fa57-2fee6f66632b@disroot.org> References: <1a60b374-fd22-ffac-1809-93fc01c96a63@disroot.org> <223f832a-f5b4-048e-451e-2aeabf9fed69@disroot.org> <56502fc2-a719-e96b-fa57-2fee6f66632b@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 2:43?PM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Fri, 9 Aug 2024, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > snip > > But the question is still, why do some memes do well in infecting human > > minds/brains. > > This is the billion dollar question. Another question is... would you > really like it if _one_ person found the answer to that question? ;) I think evolutionary psychology, is the foundation needed to answer this question. However, so far I have not found the answers useful except to understand what is happening. > Jokes aside, from time to time I do some PR/marketing work, and it is > quite a fun challenge to try and come up with a spin or a bounce of a > current topic, to propel something you wrote into the national newspapers. > > Actually... it's almost not enough to bounce off current events, the gold > standard is to actually anticipate the wave a bit. That makes it much > easier to get article placements. Hmm. I know of an issue perhaps. Cheap/excess renewable energy can be used to heat coal in steam and make low-cost hydrogen. The byproduct CO2 can be sequestered. But it would probably not make the kind of splash you could get out of alien structures causing the light dips at Tabby's Star. Keith > > Keith > > > >> I wasn't aware of this until I went pretty deeply on the I Ching and the various flavors of it, including a Daoist one. As an aside, I have found the I Ching extremely valuable even as an atheist, and would recommend exploring it to anyone with even a passing curiosity about it. > >> > >> Philip K. Dick was also influenced heavily by it. > >> > >> > >> > >> On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 1:12?PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: > >>> > >>> Well, I think western philosophy is widely spiritual, it's just not an organized religion, though very many philosophers have been religious. > >>> > >>> Daoism had its prophet in Laozi. Confucianism to me is not mystic, it's mostly an oeconomic system with already-extant chinese nature religion attached. > >>> > >>> I think nature religions are not from prophets but from small mystical experiences that come from a totally different way of thinking. When you're completely immersed in nature, you think with nature. This can happen to anyone experiencing natural glory, but when it is constant, the mysticism piles up > >>> > >>> On Thu, Aug 8, 2024 at 4:50?AM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Wed, 7 Aug 2024, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > Mysticism is the basis of religion. All religion starts with a ?prophet? type who realizes some kind of deep truth about reality or > >>>> > society. This truth is so compelling to people that they continue to listen and they spread the word. I can?t just say that a magic > >>>> > unicorn controls the world by pissing on a magic globe and make a movement?maybe a small cult of idiots. But powerful religions are > >>>> > based on powerful truths. As I mentioned, monotheism had incredible power based on the simple truth ?everything looks different but > >>>> > it?s actually all one thing?. Animism before that was based on the simple truth ?different natural objects [gods] are different and > >>>> > have consistent patterns/behavior?. > >>>> > >>>> Mysticism I think fits nicely with monotheism due to its "unifying" > >>>> experience. I was thinking about mentioning it, but then I thought, what > >>>> about if we go further back? As you say, spirits, animism etc. Do you > >>>> still think those come from mystic experiences, or from accidents like "I > >>>> pet this rock, and I caught 2 fish today, why is that?". > >>>> > >>>> I think it is very uncontroversial to say that "modern" religions tend to > >>>> come from mysticism, but what about nature religions? Then you have > >>>> of course the grey areas of Daoism and Confucianism, which to me (but I'm > >>>> definitely not an expert on religion) seem to sit uncomfortably in the > >>>> line between philosophy and religion (daoism). I could accept that > >>>> Confucianism is leaning more towards philosophy, but I think they have > >>>> some kind of ancestor worship, don't they? > >>>> > >>>> > On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 3:46?AM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > On Tue, 6 Aug 2024, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: > >>>> > > >>>> > > There are alot of additional directions I could go in as to why early, primitive religions exist in terms of explaining > >>>> > and > >>>> > > controlling your environment (or rather the appearance of control) but I think the crux of my answer is in my argument > >>>> > above. > >>>> > > >>>> > I agree. My bet would be that the origin is safety/control and > >>>> > explanation. Eventually it led to science, and hence the antagonism > >>>> > between religion and science. Religion feels threatened. > >>>> > > >>>> > I'd also add that it's a nice tool to control society and > >>>> > ensure a homogeneous culture and cooperation. > >>>> > > >>>> > But within the phenomenon of religion, you also have the mystics, which > >>>> > I think started with the above, but found their way to an incredibly > >>>> > strong internal experience, which kind of lessened the need for safety > >>>> > and explanation for them, but they have always been a tiny minority so > >>>> > perhaps not so relevant for the original question. > >>>> > > >>>> > > Memento mori. > >>>> > > > >>>> > > On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 7:58?PM Keith Henson wrote: > >>>> > > The interesting question is why do humans have religions at all? I > >>>> > > make a case that it is a side effect of selection for war. > >>>> > > > >>>> > > Religion is a class of mutually exclusive memes. I.e., it is seldom > >>>> > > that a given person has more than one of them, so you don't expect > >>>> > > someone who identifies as a Catholic to also be a Methodist. This > >>>> > > brings you to the interesting conclusion that communism is a religion > >>>> > > since being one makes it unlikely to have any of the common religious > >>>> > > memes. > >>>> > > > >>>> > > This classification does not help with the question of why humans have > >>>> > > (or are infested) with such memes. From how common this is, religious > >>>> > > memes (or something related) must have been important to survival in > >>>> > > the Stone Age. > >>>> > > > >>>> > > Religious memes seem to be descended from xenophobic memes. > >>>> > > > >>>> > > Xenophobic memes are the first step in the path to war. I think > >>>> > > genetic selection for war is the origin of susceptibility to religious > >>>> > > memes. > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > Keith > >>>> > > > >>>> > > -- > >>>> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. > >>>> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to > >>>> > > extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > >>>> > > To view this discussion on the web visit > >>>> > > > >>>> > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAPiwVB790bABKY%2BQYyAeQZQyJ4erjK3_B%2BVpdpaoycen3ZX5ZA%40mail.gmail.com. > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > >_______________________________________________ > >>>> > extropy-chat mailing list > >>>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >>>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> >_______________________________________________ > >>>> extropy-chat mailing list > >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> extropy-chat mailing list > >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> extropy-chat mailing list > >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat_______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From efc at disroot.org Sat Aug 10 09:09:34 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2024 11:09:34 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Religion In-Reply-To: References: <1a60b374-fd22-ffac-1809-93fc01c96a63@disroot.org> <223f832a-f5b4-048e-451e-2aeabf9fed69@disroot.org> <56502fc2-a719-e96b-fa57-2fee6f66632b@disroot.org> Message-ID: <0af2de37-92b9-98cd-e302-c110ba1ae4ad@disroot.org> On Fri, 9 Aug 2024, Keith Henson wrote: > On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 2:43?PM efc--- via extropy-chat > wrote: >> >> On Fri, 9 Aug 2024, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: >> > snip > >>> But the question is still, why do some memes do well in infecting human >>> minds/brains. >> >> This is the billion dollar question. Another question is... would you >> really like it if _one_ person found the answer to that question? ;) > > I think evolutionary psychology, is the foundation needed to answer > this question. However, so far I have not found the answers useful > except to understand what is happening. > >> Jokes aside, from time to time I do some PR/marketing work, and it is >> quite a fun challenge to try and come up with a spin or a bounce of a >> current topic, to propel something you wrote into the national newspapers. >> >> Actually... it's almost not enough to bounce off current events, the gold >> standard is to actually anticipate the wave a bit. That makes it much >> easier to get article placements. > > Hmm. I know of an issue perhaps. Cheap/excess renewable energy can > be used to heat coal in steam and make low-cost hydrogen. The > byproduct CO2 can be sequestered. Well, if it is revolutionary, possible to commercialize and backed by some university, it might be possible. But the green field is very busy and many are playing on it. > But it would probably not make the kind of splash you could get out of > alien structures causing the light dips at Tabby's Star. If this was confirmed with hard evidence from a big name, I think this would be a no-brainer. The challenge though, is to connect it with my customers products and services. ;) My most recent success was bouncing against Russian IT attacks arguing that security needs to be solved in a decentralized fashion, by also educating the population. I actually received a reply from the CEO of a medium sized IT-security consulting company who said (publucly) that my article was rubbish, and that the problem would be solved by trusting our brightest and the best in the form of our elected politicians and CEOs and business leaders. I always wondered if he had big public consulting contracts. ;) > Keith > >>> Keith >>> >>>> I wasn't aware of this until I went pretty deeply on the I Ching and the various flavors of it, including a Daoist one. As an aside, I have found the I Ching extremely valuable even as an atheist, and would recommend exploring it to anyone with even a passing curiosity about it. >>>> >>>> Philip K. Dick was also influenced heavily by it. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 1:12?PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Well, I think western philosophy is widely spiritual, it's just not an organized religion, though very many philosophers have been religious. >>>>> >>>>> Daoism had its prophet in Laozi. Confucianism to me is not mystic, it's mostly an oeconomic system with already-extant chinese nature religion attached. >>>>> >>>>> I think nature religions are not from prophets but from small mystical experiences that come from a totally different way of thinking. When you're completely immersed in nature, you think with nature. This can happen to anyone experiencing natural glory, but when it is constant, the mysticism piles up >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Aug 8, 2024 at 4:50?AM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, 7 Aug 2024, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Mysticism is the basis of religion. All religion starts with a ?prophet? type who realizes some kind of deep truth about reality or >>>>>>> society. This truth is so compelling to people that they continue to listen and they spread the word. I can?t just say that a magic >>>>>>> unicorn controls the world by pissing on a magic globe and make a movement?maybe a small cult of idiots. But powerful religions are >>>>>>> based on powerful truths. As I mentioned, monotheism had incredible power based on the simple truth ?everything looks different but >>>>>>> it?s actually all one thing?. Animism before that was based on the simple truth ?different natural objects [gods] are different and >>>>>>> have consistent patterns/behavior?. >>>>>> >>>>>> Mysticism I think fits nicely with monotheism due to its "unifying" >>>>>> experience. I was thinking about mentioning it, but then I thought, what >>>>>> about if we go further back? As you say, spirits, animism etc. Do you >>>>>> still think those come from mystic experiences, or from accidents like "I >>>>>> pet this rock, and I caught 2 fish today, why is that?". >>>>>> >>>>>> I think it is very uncontroversial to say that "modern" religions tend to >>>>>> come from mysticism, but what about nature religions? Then you have >>>>>> of course the grey areas of Daoism and Confucianism, which to me (but I'm >>>>>> definitely not an expert on religion) seem to sit uncomfortably in the >>>>>> line between philosophy and religion (daoism). I could accept that >>>>>> Confucianism is leaning more towards philosophy, but I think they have >>>>>> some kind of ancestor worship, don't they? >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 3:46?AM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, 6 Aug 2024, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > There are alot of additional directions I could go in as to why early, primitive religions exist in terms of explaining >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> > controlling your environment (or rather the appearance of control) but I think the crux of my answer is in my argument >>>>>>> above. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I agree. My bet would be that the origin is safety/control and >>>>>>> explanation. Eventually it led to science, and hence the antagonism >>>>>>> between religion and science. Religion feels threatened. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'd also add that it's a nice tool to control society and >>>>>>> ensure a homogeneous culture and cooperation. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But within the phenomenon of religion, you also have the mystics, which >>>>>>> I think started with the above, but found their way to an incredibly >>>>>>> strong internal experience, which kind of lessened the need for safety >>>>>>> and explanation for them, but they have always been a tiny minority so >>>>>>> perhaps not so relevant for the original question. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > Memento mori. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 7:58?PM Keith Henson wrote: >>>>>>> > The interesting question is why do humans have religions at all? I >>>>>>> > make a case that it is a side effect of selection for war. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Religion is a class of mutually exclusive memes. I.e., it is seldom >>>>>>> > that a given person has more than one of them, so you don't expect >>>>>>> > someone who identifies as a Catholic to also be a Methodist. This >>>>>>> > brings you to the interesting conclusion that communism is a religion >>>>>>> > since being one makes it unlikely to have any of the common religious >>>>>>> > memes. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > This classification does not help with the question of why humans have >>>>>>> > (or are infested) with such memes. From how common this is, religious >>>>>>> > memes (or something related) must have been important to survival in >>>>>>> > the Stone Age. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Religious memes seem to be descended from xenophobic memes. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Xenophobic memes are the first step in the path to war. I think >>>>>>> > genetic selection for war is the origin of susceptibility to religious >>>>>>> > memes. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Keith >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > -- >>>>>>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. >>>>>>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to >>>>>>> > extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> > To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAPiwVB790bABKY%2BQYyAeQZQyJ4erjK3_B%2BVpdpaoycen3ZX5ZA%40mail.gmail.com. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> >_______________________________________________ >>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat_______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From atymes at gmail.com Sat Aug 10 13:18:09 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2024 09:18:09 -0400 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Religion In-Reply-To: References: <1a60b374-fd22-ffac-1809-93fc01c96a63@disroot.org> <223f832a-f5b4-048e-451e-2aeabf9fed69@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 9, 2024, 5:11?PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Re: that, this site is an incredible I Ching reference: > https://jamesdekorne.com/GBCh/GBCh.htm > This confirms my impression of I Ching as something like tarot: a bunch of broadly applicable statements that one is expected to apply to one's own situation, without considering how most - probably all - of the others could also apply, had one (or however many you drew) of them been randomly selected instead. In other words, the predictive value of drawing one versus another is zero. They can, however, be useful as mental focusing aids for considering one's situation. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Aug 10 16:44:42 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2024 09:44:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Religion In-Reply-To: <0af2de37-92b9-98cd-e302-c110ba1ae4ad@disroot.org> References: <1a60b374-fd22-ffac-1809-93fc01c96a63@disroot.org> <223f832a-f5b4-048e-451e-2aeabf9fed69@disroot.org> <56502fc2-a719-e96b-fa57-2fee6f66632b@disroot.org> <0af2de37-92b9-98cd-e302-c110ba1ae4ad@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 10, 2024 at 2:10?AM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Fri, 9 Aug 2024, Keith Henson wrote: > snip > > Hmm. I know of an issue perhaps. Cheap/excess renewable energy can > > be used to heat coal in steam and make low-cost hydrogen. The > > byproduct CO2 can be sequestered. > > Well, if it is revolutionary, possible to commercialize and backed by some > university, it might be possible. But the green field is very busy and > many are playing on it. Not revolutionary, the process was used to make gas in the early days of the Industrial Revolution. The new part is from using excess renewable power to heat the coal in steam. A ton of coal ($20 at the mine mouth) makes .4 tons of hydrogen and releases no CO2. Is there a market for $50/ton hydrogen? > > But it would probably not make the kind of splash you could get out of > > alien structures causing the light dips at Tabby's Star. > > If this was confirmed with hard evidence from a big name, I think this > would be a no-brainer. The challenge though, is to connect it with my > customers products and services. ;) You know of the habitable zone around stars. There is also the computational zone, which is much further out, in the solar system (low temperature, faster, lower error computation). If you want a lot of computation, the best place seems to be where the Tabby's Star aliens apparently put a data center more than 400 times the area of the Earth. No idea of who this might be sold to., > My most recent success was bouncing against Russian IT attacks arguing > that security needs to be solved in a decentralized fashion, by also > educating the population. > > I actually received a reply from the CEO of a medium sized IT-security > consulting company who said (publucly) that my article was rubbish, and > that the problem would be solved by trusting our brightest and the best in > the form of our elected politicians and CEOs and business leaders. > > I always wondered if he had big public consulting contracts. ;) The trouble is that code is expensive to right but nearly zero to reproduce. This makes operations like CroudStrike profitable where 30 or 40 companies would not be. I don't have a solution. Keith > > Keith > > > >>> Keith > >>> > >>>> I wasn't aware of this until I went pretty deeply on the I Ching and the various flavors of it, including a Daoist one. As an aside, I have found the I Ching extremely valuable even as an atheist, and would recommend exploring it to anyone with even a passing curiosity about it. > >>>> > >>>> Philip K. Dick was also influenced heavily by it. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 1:12?PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Well, I think western philosophy is widely spiritual, it's just not an organized religion, though very many philosophers have been religious. > >>>>> > >>>>> Daoism had its prophet in Laozi. Confucianism to me is not mystic, it's mostly an oeconomic system with already-extant chinese nature religion attached. > >>>>> > >>>>> I think nature religions are not from prophets but from small mystical experiences that come from a totally different way of thinking. When you're completely immersed in nature, you think with nature. This can happen to anyone experiencing natural glory, but when it is constant, the mysticism piles up > >>>>> > >>>>> On Thu, Aug 8, 2024 at 4:50?AM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Wed, 7 Aug 2024, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Mysticism is the basis of religion. All religion starts with a ?prophet? type who realizes some kind of deep truth about reality or > >>>>>>> society. This truth is so compelling to people that they continue to listen and they spread the word. I can?t just say that a magic > >>>>>>> unicorn controls the world by pissing on a magic globe and make a movement?maybe a small cult of idiots. But powerful religions are > >>>>>>> based on powerful truths. As I mentioned, monotheism had incredible power based on the simple truth ?everything looks different but > >>>>>>> it?s actually all one thing?. Animism before that was based on the simple truth ?different natural objects [gods] are different and > >>>>>>> have consistent patterns/behavior?. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Mysticism I think fits nicely with monotheism due to its "unifying" > >>>>>> experience. I was thinking about mentioning it, but then I thought, what > >>>>>> about if we go further back? As you say, spirits, animism etc. Do you > >>>>>> still think those come from mystic experiences, or from accidents like "I > >>>>>> pet this rock, and I caught 2 fish today, why is that?". > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I think it is very uncontroversial to say that "modern" religions tend to > >>>>>> come from mysticism, but what about nature religions? Then you have > >>>>>> of course the grey areas of Daoism and Confucianism, which to me (but I'm > >>>>>> definitely not an expert on religion) seem to sit uncomfortably in the > >>>>>> line between philosophy and religion (daoism). I could accept that > >>>>>> Confucianism is leaning more towards philosophy, but I think they have > >>>>>> some kind of ancestor worship, don't they? > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 3:46?AM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Tue, 6 Aug 2024, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > There are alot of additional directions I could go in as to why early, primitive religions exist in terms of explaining > >>>>>>> and > >>>>>>> > controlling your environment (or rather the appearance of control) but I think the crux of my answer is in my argument > >>>>>>> above. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I agree. My bet would be that the origin is safety/control and > >>>>>>> explanation. Eventually it led to science, and hence the antagonism > >>>>>>> between religion and science. Religion feels threatened. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I'd also add that it's a nice tool to control society and > >>>>>>> ensure a homogeneous culture and cooperation. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> But within the phenomenon of religion, you also have the mystics, which > >>>>>>> I think started with the above, but found their way to an incredibly > >>>>>>> strong internal experience, which kind of lessened the need for safety > >>>>>>> and explanation for them, but they have always been a tiny minority so > >>>>>>> perhaps not so relevant for the original question. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Memento mori. > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 7:58?PM Keith Henson wrote: > >>>>>>> > The interesting question is why do humans have religions at all? I > >>>>>>> > make a case that it is a side effect of selection for war. > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > Religion is a class of mutually exclusive memes. I.e., it is seldom > >>>>>>> > that a given person has more than one of them, so you don't expect > >>>>>>> > someone who identifies as a Catholic to also be a Methodist. This > >>>>>>> > brings you to the interesting conclusion that communism is a religion > >>>>>>> > since being one makes it unlikely to have any of the common religious > >>>>>>> > memes. > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > This classification does not help with the question of why humans have > >>>>>>> > (or are infested) with such memes. From how common this is, religious > >>>>>>> > memes (or something related) must have been important to survival in > >>>>>>> > the Stone Age. > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > Religious memes seem to be descended from xenophobic memes. > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > Xenophobic memes are the first step in the path to war. I think > >>>>>>> > genetic selection for war is the origin of susceptibility to religious > >>>>>>> > memes. > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > Keith > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > -- > >>>>>>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. > >>>>>>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to > >>>>>>> > extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > >>>>>>> > To view this discussion on the web visit > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAPiwVB790bABKY%2BQYyAeQZQyJ4erjK3_B%2BVpdpaoycen3ZX5ZA%40mail.gmail.com. > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> >_______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list > >>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list > >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list > >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> extropy-chat mailing list > >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> extropy-chat mailing list > >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat_______________________________________________ > >> extropy-chat mailing list > >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > >_______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From atymes at gmail.com Sat Aug 10 19:01:59 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2024 15:01:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Religion In-Reply-To: References: <1a60b374-fd22-ffac-1809-93fc01c96a63@disroot.org> <223f832a-f5b4-048e-451e-2aeabf9fed69@disroot.org> <56502fc2-a719-e96b-fa57-2fee6f66632b@disroot.org> <0af2de37-92b9-98cd-e302-c110ba1ae4ad@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 10, 2024 at 12:46?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > A ton of coal ($20 at the mine mouth) makes .4 tons of hydrogen and > releases no CO2. Is there a market for $50/ton hydrogen? > Probably not. The cost of hydrogen varies by source, but generally it's less than $10/ton already and there are efforts to drive it toward $1/ton. (Also note that the $50/ton price assumes no charge for conversion. Even if the energy were free, there are other costs involved.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Aug 10 19:32:41 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2024 12:32:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Religion In-Reply-To: References: <1a60b374-fd22-ffac-1809-93fc01c96a63@disroot.org> <223f832a-f5b4-048e-451e-2aeabf9fed69@disroot.org> <56502fc2-a719-e96b-fa57-2fee6f66632b@disroot.org> <0af2de37-92b9-98cd-e302-c110ba1ae4ad@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 10, 2024 at 12:03?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Sat, Aug 10, 2024 at 12:46?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> A ton of coal ($20 at the mine mouth) makes .4 tons of hydrogen and >> releases no CO2. Is there a market for $50/ton hydrogen? > > > Probably not. The cost of hydrogen varies by source, but generally it's less than $10/ton already and there are efforts to drive it toward $1/ton. I think this might be $1/kg which is $1000/ton. https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/global-average-levelised-cost-of-hydrogen-production-by-energy-source-and-technology-2019-and-2050 > (Also note that the $50/ton price assumes no charge for conversion. Even if the energy were free, there are other costs involved.) True, the capital cost has to be considered and then multiplied by the operating fraction. Keith > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From efc at disroot.org Sat Aug 10 21:15:50 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2024 23:15:50 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Religion In-Reply-To: References: <1a60b374-fd22-ffac-1809-93fc01c96a63@disroot.org> <223f832a-f5b4-048e-451e-2aeabf9fed69@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Aug 2024, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > On Fri, Aug 9, 2024, 5:11?PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: > Re: that, this site is an incredible I Ching reference:?https://jamesdekorne.com/GBCh/GBCh.htm > > > This confirms my impression of I Ching as something like tarot: a bunch of broadly applicable statements that one is expected to > apply to one's own situation, without considering how most - probably all - of the others could also apply, had one (or however many > you drew) of them been randomly selected instead. > > In other words, the predictive value of drawing one versus another is zero.? They can, however, be useful as mental focusing aids for > considering one's situation. > This is my view of iching, dreams and tarot. Kind of creative writing aids. But they inspire you to come up with things, as you yourself, use its input to come up with things. Could be a deck of playing cards, role playing etc. From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sun Aug 11 00:33:33 2024 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2024 20:33:33 -0400 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Religion In-Reply-To: References: <1a60b374-fd22-ffac-1809-93fc01c96a63@disroot.org> <223f832a-f5b4-048e-451e-2aeabf9fed69@disroot.org> Message-ID: I think of the revelatory powers of the oracles in 2 ways: 1) A jungian synchronicity sense, imagine an analog clock reading 2:11, turn it around and every spring and gear is working interdependently to create this state, they have 2:11ness, but it is not scrutable from the back. The universe is like a great clock and everything is interdependent and physically/chronologically contiguous 2) some kind of unknown consciousness thing, it?s not like we really have any idea what anything is And I suppose it is helpful in a kind of ?you get what you need? creative sense but idk I have had very many extremely specific and strange i ching readings that shook me, and not uncommonly On Sat, Aug 10, 2024 at 5:16?PM efc--- via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Sat, 10 Aug 2024, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > > On Fri, Aug 9, 2024, 5:11?PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Re: that, this site is an incredible I Ching reference: > https://jamesdekorne.com/GBCh/GBCh.htm > > > > > > This confirms my impression of I Ching as something like tarot: a bunch > of broadly applicable statements that one is expected to > > apply to one's own situation, without considering how most - probably > all - of the others could also apply, had one (or however many > > you drew) of them been randomly selected instead. > > > > In other words, the predictive value of drawing one versus another is > zero. They can, however, be useful as mental focusing aids for > > considering one's situation. > > > > This is my view of iching, dreams and tarot. Kind of creative writing > aids. But they inspire you to come up with things, as you yourself, use > its input to come up with things. Could be a deck of playing cards, role > playing etc._______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sun Aug 11 00:37:03 2024 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2024 20:37:03 -0400 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Religion In-Reply-To: References: <1a60b374-fd22-ffac-1809-93fc01c96a63@disroot.org> <223f832a-f5b4-048e-451e-2aeabf9fed69@disroot.org> Message-ID: As for dreams, we know our brains are capable of far deeper number crunching that we typically perform, whether it?s the abilities of mathematical savants, or people who memorize extremely long sequences or complicated procedures, or 3d rendering abilities that we can?t comprehend mathematically. So I see no reason why dreams can?t reveal things that are the result of intricate logic/number crunching and pattern recognition. If we live in a deterministic universe, wouldn?t prophecy be possible? On Sat, Aug 10, 2024 at 5:16?PM efc--- via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Sat, 10 Aug 2024, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > > On Fri, Aug 9, 2024, 5:11?PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Re: that, this site is an incredible I Ching reference: > https://jamesdekorne.com/GBCh/GBCh.htm > > > > > > This confirms my impression of I Ching as something like tarot: a bunch > of broadly applicable statements that one is expected to > > apply to one's own situation, without considering how most - probably > all - of the others could also apply, had one (or however many > > you drew) of them been randomly selected instead. > > > > In other words, the predictive value of drawing one versus another is > zero. They can, however, be useful as mental focusing aids for > > considering one's situation. > > > > This is my view of iching, dreams and tarot. Kind of creative writing > aids. But they inspire you to come up with things, as you yourself, use > its input to come up with things. Could be a deck of playing cards, role > playing etc._______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun Aug 11 02:08:33 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2024 19:08:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Religion In-Reply-To: References: <1a60b374-fd22-ffac-1809-93fc01c96a63@disroot.org> <223f832a-f5b4-048e-451e-2aeabf9fed69@disroot.org> Message-ID: Up thread, someone asked about religions started as a result of brain injury. Google: ?Mary Baker Eddy? temporal lobe epilepsy Ellen White temporal lobe epilepsy. I remember seeing somewhere that Martin Luthar had related mental problems. Best wishes, Keith On Sat, Aug 10, 2024 at 5:38?PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: > > As for dreams, we know our brains are capable of far deeper number crunching that we typically perform, whether it?s the abilities of mathematical savants, or people who memorize extremely long sequences or complicated procedures, or 3d rendering abilities that we can?t comprehend mathematically. So I see no reason why dreams can?t reveal things that are the result of intricate logic/number crunching and pattern recognition. If we live in a deterministic universe, wouldn?t prophecy be possible? > > On Sat, Aug 10, 2024 at 5:16?PM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> >> >> On Sat, 10 Aug 2024, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> > On Fri, Aug 9, 2024, 5:11?PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: >> > Re: that, this site is an incredible I Ching reference: https://jamesdekorne.com/GBCh/GBCh.htm >> > >> > >> > This confirms my impression of I Ching as something like tarot: a bunch of broadly applicable statements that one is expected to >> > apply to one's own situation, without considering how most - probably all - of the others could also apply, had one (or however many >> > you drew) of them been randomly selected instead. >> > >> > In other words, the predictive value of drawing one versus another is zero. They can, however, be useful as mental focusing aids for >> > considering one's situation. >> > >> >> This is my view of iching, dreams and tarot. Kind of creative writing >> aids. But they inspire you to come up with things, as you yourself, use >> its input to come up with things. Could be a deck of playing cards, role >> playing etc._______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun Aug 11 02:16:36 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2024 19:16:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Google Alert - Tabby's Star In-Reply-To: <66b81b44.050a0220.1fecbc.4e8bgooglealerts@google.com> References: <66b81b44.050a0220.1fecbc.4e8bgooglealerts@google.com> Message-ID: Starting to get a trickle of MSM articles Keith ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Google Alerts Date: Sat, Aug 10, 2024 at 7:00?PM Subject: Google Alert - Tabby's Star To: [image: Google] Tabby's Star Daily update ? August 11, 2024 NEWS A Dyson sphere might help capture all available energy - The Oklahoman The Oklahoman In 2015, astronomer Tabetha ?Tabby? Boyajian discovered a star that displayed light dips of up to 22 percent. Astronomers dubbed it *Tabby's Star*. [image: Facebook] [image: Twitter] Flag as irrelevant See more results | Edit this alert You have received this email because you have subscribed to *Google Alerts*. Unsubscribe | View all your alerts [image: RSS] Receive this alert as RSS feed Send Feedback -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun Aug 11 07:47:51 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2024 00:47:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Re: Google Alert - Tabby's Star In-Reply-To: <8d3c27af-194d-43de-932e-be56d968d1fbn@googlegroups.com> References: <66b81b44.050a0220.1fecbc.4e8bgooglealerts@google.com> <8d3c27af-194d-43de-932e-be56d968d1fbn@googlegroups.com> Message-ID: The thing that kicked me over from "don't know, but it must be natural" to "it is aliens" was the astronomers finding 24 blinking stars in a cluster. The closest one is 511 lightyears from here. That set me off looking at how big the blocking object was and how far out from the star it was. The only thing that makes any sense is a data center for uploaded aliens. The reason it is so far out from the star is so it can run cold which reduces the power and keeps down the errors. Even that far out, it still intercepts a respectable amount of light, around 1.4 million times as much energy as the human race uses. The AIs estimate they have been in space for 3000 years. I would guess longer given the distance between stars. But how low are the odds of another civilization in our backyard? I need to run that question by Anders. Keith On Sat, Aug 10, 2024 at 9:06?PM Stuart LaForge wrote: > Assuming the dark forest hypothesis is true, then it would be a selective > advantage for a technologically capable species to build Dyson swarms that > would be camouflaged to look like dust clouds to the casual observer. The > dark forest hypothesis assumes only that evolution by natural selection is > universal and that there is life out there. > > Stuart LaForge > > On Saturday, August 10, 2024 at 7:17:10?PM UTC-7 hkeith... at gmail.com > wrote: > >> >> Starting to get a trickle of MSM articles >> >> Keith >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message --------- >> From: Google Alerts >> Date: Sat, Aug 10, 2024 at 7:00?PM >> Subject: Google Alert - Tabby's Star >> To: >> >> >> [image: Google] >> >> Tabby's Star >> Daily update ? August 11, 2024 >> NEWS >> >> A Dyson sphere might help capture all available energy - The Oklahoman >> >> The Oklahoman >> In 2015, astronomer Tabetha ?Tabby? Boyajian discovered a star that >> displayed light dips of up to 22 percent. Astronomers dubbed it *Tabby's >> Star*. >> [image: Facebook] >> [image: >> Twitter] >> Flag >> as irrelevant >> >> See more results >> >> | Edit this alert >> >> You have received this email because you have subscribed to *Google >> Alerts*. >> Unsubscribe >> >> | View all your alerts >> >> [image: RSS] Receive this alert as RSS feed >> >> >> Send Feedback >> >> >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "extropolis" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/8d3c27af-194d-43de-932e-be56d968d1fbn%40googlegroups.com > > . > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Aug 11 13:14:38 2024 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2024 14:14:38 +0100 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Religion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <947c0bb4-78e6-4e3c-9272-313bf8ad26de@zaiboc.net> On 11/08/2024 03:17, efc at disroot.org wrote: > My most recent success was bouncing against Russian IT attacks arguing > that security needs to be solved in a decentralized fashion, by also > educating the population. > > > > I actually received a reply from the CEO of a medium sized IT-security > consulting company who said (publucly) that my article was rubbish, and > that the problem would be solved by trusting our brightest and the best in > the form of our elected politicians and CEOs and business leaders. Yes, we all know, I'm sure, that there is a certain type of person for whom an educated public is their worst nightmare. It's not just the Putins, Xis, Kims, Khameinis, Orbans, Erdogans, Melonis, etc., either. There are many many people whose motto is "Shut up and do as I say". Unfortunately, they do tend to occupy positions of power to various degrees. Understanding the basis for this tendency, and creating an antidote for it (or at least a defence against it), may be one of the most important challenges facing the human race. By continuing to allow it to flourish, we may be sealing our own fate. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From efc at disroot.org Sun Aug 11 13:32:10 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2024 15:32:10 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Religion In-Reply-To: <947c0bb4-78e6-4e3c-9272-313bf8ad26de@zaiboc.net> References: <947c0bb4-78e6-4e3c-9272-313bf8ad26de@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <6d806c6c-5010-aab8-6dfa-15d83886228f@disroot.org> On Sun, 11 Aug 2024, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > > On 11/08/2024 03:17,?efc at disroot.org wrote: > > My most recent success was bouncing against Russian IT attacks arguing > that security needs to be solved in a decentralized fashion, by also > educating the population. > > > > I actually received a reply from the CEO of a medium sized IT-security > consulting company who said (publucly) that my article was rubbish, and > that the problem would be solved by trusting our brightest and the best in > the form of our elected politicians and CEOs and business leaders. > > > Yes, we all know, I'm sure, that there is a certain type of person for whom an educated public is their worst nightmare. > It's not just the Putins, Xis, Kims, Khameinis, Orbans, Erdogans, Melonis, etc., either. There are many many people whose motto is > "Shut up and do as I say". Unfortunately, they do tend to occupy positions of power to various degrees. > > Understanding the basis for this tendency, and creating an antidote for it (or at least a defence against it), may be one of the most > important challenges facing the human race. By continuing to allow it to flourish, we may be sealing our own fate. > > Ben > I was actually quite flattered that he felt threatened enough by my newspaper article to actually bother to reply, but needless to say, I did not want to give him more visibility so even though the newspaper asked me to reply to his post, I choose not to, since his reply was of such an extremely low quality that I think it was more powerful to just let it stand as it was. But, I agree whole heartedly with what you say. I detest such people, and they can do a lot of harm. But when it comes to an anti-dote I don't know what it could be. It seems like the majority of the population is genetically engineered to not question or criticize ideas and commands. Or is it a cultural thing? I would love to see every single person question and criticize commands and ideas, and I think we all would benefit immensely if that came to be. The "easy" answer for me, has always been education and leading by example, but it is far from easy and looking at the current school system, it feels as if I would have the entire government and the system against me. ;) I am actually thinking about starting an entirely private vocational school of very small size, and having a philosophy degree, I would certainly sneak some good, old fashiond ethics inside the curriculum if the idea will make it from the idea stadium to actually being implemented in real life. From pharos at gmail.com Sun Aug 11 13:59:43 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2024 14:59:43 +0100 Subject: [ExI] UK now jailing people for unapproved online posts Message-ID: The UK is now jailing UK citizens for controversial online posts. And, apparently, the police think they can extradite people from other countries (like the US) for similar online comments. Quotes: UK police commissioner threatens to extradite, jail US citizens over online posts: 'We'll come after you'. 'Being a keyboard warrior does not make you safe from the law' the police commissioner warned. By Alexander Hall Fox News Published August 9, 2024 London's Metropolitan Police chief warned that officials will not only be cracking down on British citizens for commentary on the riots in the U.K., but on American citizens as well. "We will throw the full force of the law at people. And whether you?re in this country committing crimes on the streets or committing crimes from further afield online, we will come after you," Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Mark Rowley told Sky News. One key aspect that makes this apparent crackdown on social media particularly shocking to critics is that the British government is threatening to extradite American citizens from the U.S. to be jailed in the U.K. for violating their rules about political speech online. ------------------------------- It looks like Musk's silly idea of freedom of speech online is now to be crushed. Freedom of speech just gets people over-excited and causes trouble for the folk in charge. BillK From atymes at gmail.com Sun Aug 11 14:30:34 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2024 10:30:34 -0400 Subject: [ExI] UK now jailing people for unapproved online posts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It looks like it's just Fox News, and reposts explicitly citing Fox, saying this. They've lied before, so if no one else is backing them up on this, did it really happen? Even if it did, it'd need to rise to the level of active plotting and support - the kind of thing where if you were in one state and coordinating riots in another within the US, the US would arrest you for that - to have standing in the US system. However, that appears to maybe be exactly what this was allegedly about. On Sun, Aug 11, 2024 at 10:02?AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The UK is now jailing UK citizens for controversial online posts. > And, apparently, the police think they can extradite people from other > countries (like the US) for similar online comments. > > < > https://www.foxnews.com/media/uk-police-commissioner-threatens-extradite-jail-us-citizens-over-social-media-posts-we-come-afte > > > Quotes: > UK police commissioner threatens to extradite, jail US citizens over > online posts: 'We'll come after you'. > 'Being a keyboard warrior does not make you safe from the law' the > police commissioner warned. > By Alexander Hall Fox News Published August 9, 2024 > > London's Metropolitan Police chief warned that officials will not only > be cracking down on British citizens for commentary on the riots in > the U.K., but on American citizens as well. > > "We will throw the full force of the law at people. And whether you?re > in this country committing crimes on the streets or committing crimes > from further afield online, we will come after you," Metropolitan > Police Commissioner Sir Mark Rowley told Sky News. > > One key aspect that makes this apparent crackdown on social media > particularly shocking to critics is that the British government is > threatening to extradite American citizens from the U.S. to be jailed > in the U.K. for violating their rules about political speech online. > ------------------------------- > > It looks like Musk's silly idea of freedom of speech online is now to > be crushed. Freedom of speech just gets people over-excited and causes > trouble for the folk in charge. > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Aug 11 15:04:48 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2024 16:04:48 +0100 Subject: [ExI] UK now jailing people for unapproved online posts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Aug 2024 at 15:33, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > It looks like it's just Fox News, and reposts explicitly citing Fox, saying this. They've lied before, so if no one else is backing them up on this, did it really happen? > > Even if it did, it'd need to rise to the level of active plotting and support - the kind of thing where if you were in one state and coordinating riots in another within the US, the US would arrest you for that - to have standing in the US system. However, that appears to maybe be exactly what this was allegedly about. > _______________________________________________ The police commissioner was recorded saying those comments on Sky News television. I think that makes it reliable. :) However, if the authorities disapprove of his comments (in case it offends US politicians), we may see a series of back-tracking articles. The mainstream news is very sensitive to only publishing 'approved' news or rephrasing bad news as required. This certainly seems to be an over-estimation of his powers by the commissioner. This indicates how really annoyed the government is by these rebellious 'deplorables'. BillK From atymes at gmail.com Sun Aug 11 15:49:12 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2024 11:49:12 -0400 Subject: [ExI] UK now jailing people for unapproved online posts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 11, 2024 at 11:07?AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, 11 Aug 2024 at 15:33, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > It looks like it's just Fox News, and reposts explicitly citing Fox, > saying this. They've lied before, so if no one else is backing them up on > this, did it really happen? > > > > Even if it did, it'd need to rise to the level of active plotting and > support - the kind of thing where if you were in one state and coordinating > riots in another within the US, the US would arrest you for that - to have > standing in the US system. However, that appears to maybe be exactly what > this was allegedly about. > > The police commissioner was recorded saying those comments on Sky News > television. I think that makes it reliable. :) > https://www.lexisnexis.com.tw/blog/8kdaja216390P1cedd47.htm backs it up, They're credible enough to confirm it happened. But it also makes clear that the extraditable offense is inciting a riot, to a degree that is illegal - even if done remotely - in the US too. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From efc at disroot.org Sun Aug 11 17:34:46 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2024 19:34:46 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] UK now jailing people for unapproved online posts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5c16d125-20a8-e7c7-8910-8be00cbebd87@disroot.org> On Sun, 11 Aug 2024, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > It looks like Musk's silly idea of freedom of speech online is now to > be crushed. Freedom of speech just gets people over-excited and causes > trouble for the folk in charge. This is nothing new. Freedom of speech has been on decline for a long time in the west, accelerated by corona, where WHO and many western countries took inspiration from how china were dealing with things. I think in the short term, that things will only get worse, but the silver lining is that perhaps this will push more people onto anonymous, federated and decentralized online platforms, and away from the corporate giants, thus, benefitting the market in the end! > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun Aug 11 19:31:52 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2024 12:31:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Religion In-Reply-To: <6d806c6c-5010-aab8-6dfa-15d83886228f@disroot.org> References: <947c0bb4-78e6-4e3c-9272-313bf8ad26de@zaiboc.net> <6d806c6c-5010-aab8-6dfa-15d83886228f@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 11, 2024 at 6:33?AM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > snip > But when it comes to an anti-dote I don't know what it could be. It > seems like the majority of the population is genetically engineered to > not question or criticize ideas and commands. If you think about it, accepting the memes of your tribe was most of the time good for your genes. You want to eat those berries and not these. And in cooperative hunting or war, you needed to follow the commands of the leader. It's not hard to see how such psychological traits would evolve in social primates. > Or is it a cultural thing? That too. Memes are elements of culture. The information in culture exceeded the information in our genes some time ago. > I would love to see every single person question and criticize commands > and ideas, and I think we all would benefit immensely if that came to > be. Lots of luck. Humans seem to be biased against having too much insight. Keith > The "easy" answer for me, has always been education and leading by > example, but it is far from easy and looking at the current school > system, it feels as if I would have the entire government and the system > against me. ;) > > I am actually thinking about starting an entirely private vocational > school of very small size, and having a philosophy degree, I would > certainly sneak some good, old fashiond ethics inside the curriculum if > the idea will make it from the idea stadium to actually being > implemented in real life._______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From efc at disroot.org Sun Aug 11 20:59:51 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2024 22:59:51 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Religion In-Reply-To: References: <947c0bb4-78e6-4e3c-9272-313bf8ad26de@zaiboc.net> <6d806c6c-5010-aab8-6dfa-15d83886228f@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Aug 2024, Keith Henson wrote: > On Sun, Aug 11, 2024 at 6:33?AM efc--- via extropy-chat > wrote: >> > snip > >> But when it comes to an anti-dote I don't know what it could be. It >> seems like the majority of the population is genetically engineered to >> not question or criticize ideas and commands. > > If you think about it, accepting the memes of your tribe was most of > the time good for your genes. You want to eat those berries and not > these. And in cooperative hunting or war, you needed to follow the > commands of the leader. It's not hard to see how such psychological > traits would evolve in social primates. > >> Or is it a cultural thing? > > That too. Memes are elements of culture. The information in culture > exceeded the information in our genes some time ago. > >> I would love to see every single person question and criticize commands >> and ideas, and I think we all would benefit immensely if that came to >> be. > > Lots of luck. Humans seem to be biased against having too much insight. Sigh... sadly, what you say sounds way too reasonable. Best regards, Daniel > Keith > >> The "easy" answer for me, has always been education and leading by >> example, but it is far from easy and looking at the current school >> system, it feels as if I would have the entire government and the system >> against me. ;) >> >> I am actually thinking about starting an entirely private vocational >> school of very small size, and having a philosophy degree, I would >> certainly sneak some good, old fashiond ethics inside the curriculum if >> the idea will make it from the idea stadium to actually being >> implemented in real life._______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From pharos at gmail.com Sun Aug 11 21:10:33 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2024 22:10:33 +0100 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Religion In-Reply-To: References: <947c0bb4-78e6-4e3c-9272-313bf8ad26de@zaiboc.net> <6d806c6c-5010-aab8-6dfa-15d83886228f@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Aug 2024 at 20:34, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > > If you think about it, accepting the memes of your tribe was most of > the time good for your genes. You want to eat those berries and not > these. And in cooperative hunting or war, you needed to follow the > commands of the leader. It's not hard to see how such psychological > traits would evolve in social primates. > > That too. Memes are elements of culture. The information in culture > exceeded the information in our genes some time ago. > > Lots of luck. Humans seem to be biased against having too much insight. > > Keith > _______________________________________________ As you say, in humans, your life depended on being a member of your tribe. Lone wolves had a hard time surviving. Though this is less significant in modern society. The current problems in the US and Europe seem to be because these countries have split into two major tribes with very different cultural beliefs. (Plus several minor groups as well). This can't be due to genetics, as they all have inherited similar tribal genetics. It must be due to different culture or memes that have taken root in the different groups. I don't see how these different cultures can be resolved. Perhaps by gradual changes over generations. BillK From atymes at gmail.com Sun Aug 11 23:33:14 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2024 19:33:14 -0400 Subject: [ExI] UK now jailing people for unapproved online posts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 11, 2024 at 11:49?AM Adrian Tymes wrote: > On Sun, Aug 11, 2024 at 11:07?AM BillK via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Sun, 11 Aug 2024 at 15:33, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat >> wrote: >> > >> > It looks like it's just Fox News, and reposts explicitly citing Fox, >> saying this. They've lied before, so if no one else is backing them up on >> this, did it really happen? >> > >> > Even if it did, it'd need to rise to the level of active plotting and >> support - the kind of thing where if you were in one state and coordinating >> riots in another within the US, the US would arrest you for that - to have >> standing in the US system. However, that appears to maybe be exactly what >> this was allegedly about. >> >> The police commissioner was recorded saying those comments on Sky News >> television. I think that makes it reliable. :) >> > > https://www.lexisnexis.com.tw/blog/8kdaja216390P1cedd47.htm backs it up, > They're credible enough to confirm it happened. > I have been alerted to this not being the actual LexisNexis site, but a scam site. Which makes it odd that no one besides Fox and those pointing to Fox are airing this. Even news.sky.com itself does not appear to have anything on it - which begs the question, did it in fact air on Sky News, or was the video clip saying it was, forged? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Mon Aug 12 00:42:18 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2024 01:42:18 +0100 Subject: [ExI] UK now jailing people for unapproved online posts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Aug 2024 at 00:36, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Sun, Aug 11, 2024 at 11:49?AM Adrian Tymes wrote: > > I have been alerted to this not being the actual LexisNexis site, but a scam site. > > Which makes it odd that no one besides Fox and those pointing to Fox are airing this. Even news.sky.com itself does not appear to have anything on it - which begs the question, did it in fact air on Sky News, or was the video clip saying it was, forged? > _______________________________________________ The full video is on Facebook. Sky News seems to just have a short excerpt. But if it is a forgery, I expect UK officials will soon be screaming about it! :) BillK From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Mon Aug 12 05:02:24 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2024 22:02:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Religion In-Reply-To: References: <947c0bb4-78e6-4e3c-9272-313bf8ad26de@zaiboc.net> <6d806c6c-5010-aab8-6dfa-15d83886228f@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 11, 2024 at 2:12?PM BillK via extropy-chat wrote: snip > As you say, in humans, your life depended on being a member of your tribe. > Lone wolves had a hard time surviving. Though this is less significant > in modern society. It is worth remembering that humans are *social* primates. > The current problems in the US and Europe seem to be because these > countries have split into two major tribes with very different > cultural beliefs. (Plus several minor groups as well). This can't be > due to genetics, as they all have inherited similar tribal genetics. > It must be due to different culture or memes that have taken root in > the different groups. That is correct. But there is an underlying factor here. Some parts of the country are doing ok, and the majority of the people are reasonably satisfied with the way things are going. Other parts are not so happy and see a bleak future. These are currently associated with the political parties. In the tribal days, a bleak future was normally the signal to cut the population back either by attacking neighbors or some subgroup of your tribe. We still have the genes for the psychological traits to start wars because the math works out that genes do better going to war than they do starving. One of those psychological traits is to spread xenophobic memes about either neighbors or some subgroup. Incidentally, it is not needed for the situation to get absolutely bad, but just relatively worse than it was to set off problems.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Cialdini has a good deal to say about this though he credits someone else. His major book is easy to recast into evolutionary psychology terms. Long as I have mentioned him, will cc this post to him > I don't see how these different cultures can be resolved. > Perhaps by gradual changes over generations. Memes can come and go much faster than genes. Remember this whole MAGA/Trump business started not that many years ago. As an example, the IRA went out of business as the economy (income per capita) picked up when the Irish women cut the number of kids to replacement. In any case, technological progress will change things beyond belief in far less than a generation. Keith Keith > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From efc at disroot.org Mon Aug 12 08:11:43 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2024 10:11:43 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Religion In-Reply-To: References: <947c0bb4-78e6-4e3c-9272-313bf8ad26de@zaiboc.net> <6d806c6c-5010-aab8-6dfa-15d83886228f@disroot.org> Message-ID: <7073a32c-5498-9dcb-fb55-95a88aea96a0@disroot.org> On Sun, 11 Aug 2024, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > On Sun, 11 Aug 2024 at 20:34, Keith Henson via extropy-chat > wrote: >> >> If you think about it, accepting the memes of your tribe was most of >> the time good for your genes. You want to eat those berries and not >> these. And in cooperative hunting or war, you needed to follow the >> commands of the leader. It's not hard to see how such psychological >> traits would evolve in social primates. >> >> That too. Memes are elements of culture. The information in culture >> exceeded the information in our genes some time ago. >> >> Lots of luck. Humans seem to be biased against having too much insight. >> >> Keith >> _______________________________________________ > > > As you say, in humans, your life depended on being a member of your tribe. > Lone wolves had a hard time surviving. Though this is less significant > in modern society. > > The current problems in the US and Europe seem to be because these > countries have split into two major tribes with very different > cultural beliefs. (Plus several minor groups as well). This can't be > due to genetics, as they all have inherited similar tribal genetics. > It must be due to different culture or memes that have taken root in > the different groups. Looking at my small corner of europe, the two tribes are split along income, where lower income vote socialist, and higher income vote centrist/conservative/nationalist. But... there is also another fairly clear split. The left voting crowd tend to work in the public sector and the right voting crowd tend to work in the private sector. A third "cut" which kind of aligns with the income one, so not as clear cut (pun intended) as the first two are immigrants who tend to vote left over right. Those are three splits I see. It also seems as if interaction between the groups is fairly small and most (but definitely not all) tend to socialize within their own group. Apart from the last, I would not be surprised if the first two hold in the US as well. > I don't see how these different cultures can be resolved. > Perhaps by gradual changes over generations. In sweden, one thing would be to reduce the size of the public sector, since it has become a club with its own culture, norms and traditions, and since the public sector makes up around 30% of the voters, it's a big sub-group. Another would be to educate people to see that extreme polarization, in the long term is negative for society, and thus for themselves. In my experience, there is nothing as good as working together towards a common, freely choosen goal, to break down social barriers. But, as you can see, there probably are no easy and quick fixes. Education is slow. Reducing the size of the government is difficult, and in terms of good leaders in companies, which yields a good work environment, is very rare. > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 12 15:04:28 2024 From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2024 15:04:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] UK now jailing people for unapproved online posts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1753266193.8273306.1723475068919@mail.yahoo.com> I don't recall anything in the UK media saying that our police would be targeting US citizens over the recent riots. However, we do have a problem with people deliberately stirring the pot and trying to get online reaction by spreading misinformation.? The threat to issue arrest warrants and extradite probably has more to do with Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, aka Tommy Robinson, aka Tommeh Ten Names. He was recently booted out of Canada and fled the UK to Cyprus to avoid an arrest warrant for contempt of court. He gets online following for spreading information that stirs up anger at immigrants, and whenever he finds a criminal case involving an immigrant he starts posting online about "evil immigrants coming here to commit crime", and how "the government wants to stop you from discovering the truth". Our courts have laws about what you can and cannot report, in order to maximise the chances of a fair trial, and I believe US courts also have restrictions. Mr Ten Names doesn't care about this, and is in trouble for it and acts surprised that free speech isn't an absolute right in the UK. We have had news stories in the UK about people posting false information about the Southport stabbings - the accused was a 17 year old, so as a minor the media weren't allowed to release virtually anything without court approval. People who posted false names or claimed the murderer was an immigrant before reporting restrictions were loosened have found themselves getting charged with offences like "one count of publishing written material to stir up racial hatred" or "sending a false communication with intent to cause harm". I just checked the BBC website and it seems people are being charged for all sorts of things, including somebody posting a video claiming he was being chased by far-right rioters where there weren't any. The current crop of headlines are mostly for people who have pleaded guilty, as they are getting sentenced now. The people who can afford a legal battle will take some months to go through the system. We shall see just how severe the UK government gets when it feels public order is threatened over the next few weeks. Tom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Aug 12 15:36:31 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2024 11:36:31 -0400 Subject: [ExI] UK now jailing people for unapproved online posts In-Reply-To: <1753266193.8273306.1723475068919@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1753266193.8273306.1723475068919@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 12, 2024 at 11:06?AM Tom Nowell via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Our courts have laws about what you can and cannot report, in order to > maximise the chances of a fair trial, and I believe US courts also have > restrictions. Mr Ten Names doesn't care about this, and is in trouble for > it and acts surprised that free speech isn't an absolute right in the UK. > You are correct about the US courts. We have had far too many who have been pulling this sort of thing - including acting surprised (and then some) - entirely within the US. One particularly egregious case of recent was Alex Jones, a "shock jock" who kept denying - on a broadcast platform with a substantial audience - that the school shooting in Sandy Hook Elementary in 2012 actually took place, to the point that his audience began inflicting harm on the parents of the victims. He has consistently lost the resulting court cases, and tried to use his platform to assault the plaintiffs (and beg his audience for money to cover his legal bills, in a pattern copied by Donald Trump). > We shall see just how severe the UK government gets when it feels public > order is threatened over the next few weeks. > One might hope that Kamala Harris - a former prosecutor and current major party candidate for President - will take notes. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Mon Aug 12 16:19:16 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2024 09:19:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Re: Google Alert - Tabby's Star In-Reply-To: References: <66b81b44.050a0220.1fecbc.4e8bgooglealerts@google.com> <8d3c27af-194d-43de-932e-be56d968d1fbn@googlegroups.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 11, 2024 at 1:59?PM John Clark wrote: > > On Sun, Aug 11, 2024 at 3:48?AM Keith Henson wrote: > >> > The thing that kicked me over from "don't know, but it must be natural" to "it is aliens" was the astronomers finding 24 blinking stars in a cluster. The closest one is 511 lightyears from here. > > 511 light years is next door astronomically speaking, there must be millions of stars like that in the Milky Way alone, but we can only see the closest ones; our solar system probably looked like that for millions of years during the time after the sun formed but before the planets did. Kepler found only one star that acted this way. We could see this kind of blink for a very long distance. > What I don't understand is why discovering other stars that are similar to Tabby's Star increases your confidence that ET made them. It looks like life spreading out, the way life does. > It increases my confidence that it's a natural phenomenon, and I'm not alone. The overwhelming consensus of professional astronomers, astrophysicists and even the SETI Institute say ET almost certainly has nothing to do with Tabby's Star. Part of the reason I think we are looking at shadows of technological objects is all the work I did on power satellites and thermal radiators. For example, a dust cloud in thermal equilibrium would be about 210 K and not the measured 65 K. This implies directional thermal radiation which is not natural. If it is aliens, there are good points and bad ones. The good is that they made it through their local singularity so maybe we can. The bad thing is that we don't need the competition. I would be happy to be wrong. Keith > John K Clark > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv2ta-WoD6o29-w1btW%3D-%2BBdD10w_31CdPreRn20OpoQxw%40mail.gmail.com. From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Mon Aug 12 23:47:01 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2024 16:47:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Re: Google Alert - Tabby's Star In-Reply-To: References: <66b81b44.050a0220.1fecbc.4e8bgooglealerts@google.com> <8d3c27af-194d-43de-932e-be56d968d1fbn@googlegroups.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 12, 2024 at 11:55?AM John Clark wrote: > > On Mon, Aug 12, 2024 at 12:19?PM Keith Henson wrote: > >>> >> 511 light years is next door astronomically speaking, there must be millions of stars like that in the Milky Way alone, but we can only see the closest ones; our solar system probably looked like that for millions of years during the time after the sun formed but before the planets did. >> >> >> > Kepler found only one star that acted this way. > > I thought you said there were 24. Later search, looking at stars near Tabby's Star. >> > We could see this kind of blink for a very long distance. > > Perhaps we could if we used our very largest telescopes to closely observe a particular star over a period of several months, but there are many billions of stars in the galaxy and there is no way to know beforehand which one is likely to exhibit this peculiar dimming. Telescope time for world-class instruments is very expensive. Depends on the telescope. Kepler looked at a some rather large number of stars all at once. > Also, at least in this solar system the planets started to form only a few million years after the sun did, and that was many billions of years ago. So there's only a very narrow window of opportunity for anybody to observe it. Thus it would be rare to find a star like Tabby, particularly if it was much further away than Tabby and thus much dimmer. And Tabby would need to be 450 times brighter to be visible with the naked eye. Not sure of your reasoning here. >> > a dust cloud in thermal equilibrium > > > Dust clouds are very complex systems and a lot of them are not in thermal equilibrium, the Boomerang nebula certainly isn't. > >> > would be about 210 K and not the measured 65 K. > > > I don't know where you got that 65K figure. Maybe you've seen something recent that I haven't, but from what I know even the best measurements of the temperature of Tabby's dust cloud have huge error bars, they give a range of 200 to 500 K. In any case, dust clouds just will not account for it because they don't last very long. The dust is blown out by light pressure like a comet tail. Eventually, the truth will be known. If I am right, I will gain status along with people like Jason Wright. But as I say, I hope I am wrong. Keith > John K Clark See what's on my new list at Extropolis > rp1 > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv0UV1RnP88Y_c9yRn5NrkWFpc7YxK0qVmzMPraPBeb7vA%40mail.gmail.com. From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Tue Aug 13 17:28:58 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2024 10:28:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: R42 INSTITUTE DEMO DAY AGENDA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This sounds interesting. Keith ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: 'Robert Horst' via Inventor's Lunch Date: Mon, Aug 12, 2024 at 3:47?PM Subject: R42 INSTITUTE DEMO DAY AGENDA To: Inventor's Lunch Just got this announcement from someone I know. It looks like some interesting topics will be covered this Friday by Zoom. Where do I sign up for the Aging Vaccine? ? Bob Begin forwarded message: Feel free to share this announcement with others ... We will be presenting: * R42 XPrize Healthspan SuperTeam at 8:10am-8:40am PDT Aug.16.2024* I am personally focused on this project. *Other Topics involving: Longevity, Aging, AI, Patents, and more.* *But there is more!!!...* R42 Institute AI Fellows Cohort 7 Friday Aug 16th, 2024. Online. 10 Exciting topics - quantum computing, aging vaccine, all detailed below - come for all of it or some of it. Please Register even if you cannot attend live to get access to the Demo Day Recording Register here R42 Institute Demo Day: 8am-2pm PDT, Friday, August 16th, 2024 Breakout Rooms for Mingling with the Project Teams, Guests and R42 Team 1. *R42 INSTITUTE DEMO DAY AGENDA* *Fri.Aug.16.2024 *(Note: All Times are PDT (Pacific Daylight Time) Registration: *https://us02web.zoom.us/meeting/register/tZcude2gqTopE9VOfFsrAUZexiUyf9GL0FDL#/registration* OPENING 7:30-8:00 Networking Breakout Room 8:00-8:10 R42 Institute Opening Remark LONGEVITY TECH 8:10-8:40 R42 XPRIZE Health-span Prize 8:40-9:10 Vaccine for Aging 9:10-9:40 X10E Biosensors 9:40-10:10 Female Aging Tech DEEP TECH EXPLORER 10:10-10:40 Al Ethics 10:40-11:10 Stock Market Prediction 11:10-11:40 Quantum Computing R42 AI FRONTIERS 11:40 - 12:10 No Code Al Application for Life Science - Patent Search 12:10 - 12:40 Al for Patent Generation 12:40 - 1:10 Al Persona Creation CLOSING 1:10 - 1:20 Closing Remark 1:20 - 2:00 Networking Breakout Link: Welcome! You are invited to join a meeting: R42 Institute Cohort 7 Demo Day. After registering, you will receive a confirmation email about joining the meeting. us02web.zoom.us *More info on R42 Group, Dr.Ronjon Nag, and related activities:* *R42Group.com* 2. R42 AI and Longevity Club - bundled aging tests and activities: register and provide feedback here on what the club should look like 3. 2025 R42 venture funds now open - contact us if an accredited investor. *Dr. Ronjon Nag, CEng, FIET* Founder & Managing Director, R42 Group Adjunct Professor in Genetics, Stanford School of Medicine M +1 (650) 281-9220 www.linkedin/in/ronjonnag Live chat with my avatar now Find Bio AI models at Superbio.ai Stanford AI and Longevity papers Regards, Kim Parnell ------------------------------------- T. Kim Parnell, Ph.D.,P.E. *Fellow, ASME* *Parnell Expert Consulting* *Parnell Engineering & Consulting* 1150 Kelsey Drive Sunnyvale, CA 94087 E-mail: *kim.parnell at stanfordalumni.org * Cell: (408) 203-9443 *https://parnell-eng.com https://www.linkedin.com/in/parnellpec <-- My LinkedIN Profile* -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Inventor's Lunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to inventors-lunch+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/inventors-lunch/F76588B6-0908-4140-BDD3-340F334B8337%40horsttech.com . For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Aug 15 22:38:51 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 23:38:51 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Google robot learns to play table-tennis as good as humans Message-ID: Video: Google robot paddles human table tennis competitors By Michael Franco August 12, 2024 Quotes: Using heaps of data, Google trained a table-tennis-playing robot to take on human competitors and get better as it did so. The results were impressive and represent a leap forward in robotic speed and dexterity. It also looks really fun. "Achieving human-level speed and performance on real world tasks is a north star for the robotics research community." ---------------------------- The article includes a 25-minute games video and a 2-minute highlights video. Impressive robot speed! Only advanced players could beat it. BillK From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Aug 16 17:49:12 2024 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2024 13:49:12 -0400 Subject: [ExI] UK now jailing people for unapproved online posts In-Reply-To: References: <1753266193.8273306.1723475068919@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 12, 2024 at 11:38?AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, Aug 12, 2024 at 11:06?AM Tom Nowell via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Our courts have laws about what you can and cannot report, in order to >> maximise the chances of a fair trial, and I believe US courts also have >> restrictions. Mr Ten Names doesn't care about this, and is in trouble for >> it and acts surprised that free speech isn't an absolute right in the UK. >> > > You are correct about the US courts. We have had far too many who have > been pulling this sort of thing - including acting surprised (and then > some) - entirely within the US. One particularly egregious case of recent > was Alex Jones, a "shock jock" who kept denying - on a broadcast platform > with a substantial audience - that the school shooting in Sandy Hook > Elementary in 2012 actually took place, to the point that his audience > began inflicting harm on the parents of the victims. He has consistently > lost the resulting court cases, and tried to use his platform to assault > the plaintiffs (and beg his audience for money to cover his legal bills, in > a pattern copied by Donald Trump). > > >> We shall see just how severe the UK government gets when it feels public >> order is threatened over the next few weeks. >> > > One might hope that Kamala Harris - a former prosecutor and current major > party candidate for President - will take notes. > _ ### It is truly evil to support the state in their war on freedom of speech. It is evil to act (e.g. imprison somebody) against speech, because speech is not an act. The only legitimate response to speech is speech, or a refusal of association, never an act of violence. Not all speech must be heard but no speech may be silenced. All speech is sacred. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Aug 16 19:12:05 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2024 15:12:05 -0400 Subject: [ExI] UK now jailing people for unapproved online posts In-Reply-To: References: <1753266193.8273306.1723475068919@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 16, 2024 at 1:51?PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > It is evil to act (e.g. imprison somebody) against speech, because speech > is not an act. > > The only legitimate response to speech is speech, or a refusal of > association, never an act of violence. > What about calls to violence, or other imminent lawless action? What about defamation, in circumstances where the afflicted is not afforded anywhere near equal opportunity of speech to set the record straight? What about giving instructions that a machine is programmed to act upon, upon perceiving those instructions? What about transmitting or broadcasting stolen intellectual property, or other unlawfully obtained information such as someone else's passwords? (Or personally identifiable information, such as home address, as part of an indirect call for action, such as a request for someone to anonymously firebomb a hated person's house or to drive by it and shoot whoever is there?) The list of exceptions to absolute free speech, that have been found necessary in practice to sustain a functioning society, is not empty. (Even if, with modern building codes and safety systems, literally shouting "fire" in a crowded theater might not make the cut any more.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Aug 16 19:15:59 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2024 12:15:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Fwd: Google Alert - Tabby's Star In-Reply-To: References: <66b81b44.050a0220.1fecbc.4e8bgooglealerts@google.com> Message-ID: I agree that the hexagon in this photo is an artifact. We are looking at this edge-on to the local ecliptic or we would not see the dips. Also, simple math applied to the largest dip gives you an orbital velocity corresponding to about 7.8 AU. I don't think Dyson spheres at one AU make sense for computation, they are too warm. Keith On Fri, Aug 16, 2024 at 6:21?AM John Clark wrote: > > On Stuart LaForge wrote: > > >>> why hasn't my tax-dollar funded space telescope and research grants produced a publication in a publish or perish academic environment after over a year? >> >> >> >> In your previous post you said you understood the answer to that question, you said "I understand why they are reluctant to publish". So what is the answer? >> >> >> > Simple. The astronomers doing the study don't know what to write. > > > They could have done what the astronomers who discovered that the universe was not slowing down but accelerating did (and received a Nobel Prize for doing so), they could've said we have found something strange but we don't know how to explain it. But they did not do that despite the fact that scientists love nothing better than reporting on something they found that is strange. Therefore I conclude that they did not believe they had found anything they thought was strange. > >> > It is possible that the government has classified their research for national security, > > > Oh come on now! > >> > but if that is the case, then why would the raw data still be available in their camera feed? > > > Good question. > > John K Clark > > > >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv2%3D16GgwdZThMhbMij%2Be%3DJ4K%3DA060njZtP9FsYLFxhhjQ%40mail.gmail.com. From steinberg.will at gmail.com Fri Aug 16 22:37:44 2024 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2024 18:37:44 -0400 Subject: [ExI] fluid dynamics question/modeling Message-ID: I was thinking today about what a rotating disc (or rather series of concentric rotating rings) would look like if each ring was made to rotate at an angular velocity that made them all have equal linear velocity at any given point. I suppose it would look something like a spiral? If this was at the bottom of a cylindrical tank of water, would the water just be still? Was wondering about this because I saw something about Saturn's hexagon possibly being the result of differing latitudinal wind velocities. Is there a program that would make this easy to model? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Aug 17 06:39:06 2024 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2024 02:39:06 -0400 Subject: [ExI] UK now jailing people for unapproved online posts In-Reply-To: References: <1753266193.8273306.1723475068919@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 16, 2024 at 3:14?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Aug 16, 2024 at 1:51?PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> It is evil to act (e.g. imprison somebody) against speech, because speech >> is not an act. >> >> The only legitimate response to speech is speech, or a refusal of >> association, never an act of violence. >> > > What about calls to violence, or other imminent lawless action? > ### Speech is sacred. How one acts in response to speech is the responsibility of the listener, not the speaker. Whoever commits illegitimate violence must be punished, no matter what he listened or not listened to. Of course, if there is a command-and-control relationship between a speaker and an actor, the speaker's words are no longer simply speech. When a mafia boss orders a kill, both the boss and the underling are guilty of violence. ----------------- > > What about defamation, in circumstances where the afflicted is not > afforded anywhere near equal opportunity of speech to set the record > straight? > ### Speech is sacred. The attacker's speech and the defender's speech are weighed and measured. Whosoever is found wanting, shall be ignored.The truthsayer will be elevated, the liar's words will fall on deaf ears. All speech is sacred but only some speech deserves a hearing. ----------------- > > What about giving instructions that a machine is programmed to act > upon, upon perceiving those instructions? > ### When a command-and-control relationship exists between a speaker and an actor, whether human or machine, words are no longer speech, they are actions, since there is no deliberation of an independent mind on the pathway from the speaker to the actor's action. Speech is thought made tangible. This is a part of a definition, not an aphorism. Speech alters thought. Sounds that directly impinge on reality, not through the sieve of a mind, are mere physical phenomena, even if they may have the form of words. Such words are actions and are not sacred, they are mundane. ------------------- > > What about transmitting or broadcasting stolen intellectual property, or > other unlawfully obtained information such as someone else's passwords? > (Or personally identifiable information, such as home address, as part of > an indirect call for action, such as a request for someone to anonymously > firebomb a hated person's house or to drive by it and shoot whoever is > there?) > ### The tangible manifestations of thought belong to the thinker, unless bestowed on others explicitly or implicitly. Unwanted thought-reading or unwanted acquisition of tangible but private manifestations of thought are thought-theft, as heinous a crime as the theft of things. It's not free speech if the words you say were stolen. ------------------- > > The list of exceptions to absolute free speech, that have been found > necessary in practice to sustain a functioning society, is not empty. > (Even if, with modern building codes and safety systems, literally shouting > "fire" in a crowded theater might not make the cut any more.) > ### I have yet to encounter a claimed exception to the sanctity of speech as defined above ("Thought made into a tangible property") that wouldn't crumble after a moment of deliberation. We are spirits and thought is our sacred essence. Speech is thought that enters the lower realms while in transit to other spirits, therefore it is sacred. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From efc at disroot.org Sat Aug 17 09:06:02 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2024 11:06:02 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] UK now jailing people for unapproved online posts In-Reply-To: References: <1753266193.8273306.1723475068919@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <59d495dc-2f6b-33ee-31de-25aff0fcef1d@disroot.org> On Sat, 17 Aug 2024, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: > ### I have yet to encounter a claimed exception to the sanctity of speech as defined above ("Thought made into a tangible property") > that wouldn't crumble after a moment of deliberation. > > We are spirits and thought is our sacred essence. Speech is thought that enters the lower realms while in transit to other spirits, > therefore it is sacred. > > Rafal I am also a free speech extremist, and I think that there could potentially be some negative side effects from free speech, but that the good outweighs the evil. What I find very fascinating is the culture shift in western europe, where free speech has become a minority position, and the broad masses seem to think it is a good idea to fine or imprison people for things they said, but did not act upon. On a personal note, there is now a strong movement in sweden to try and give islam protected status, and shield it from any criticism. I find that abominable. No religion should be shielded from criticism no matter how soft skinned and prone to anger the followers are. If they riot, I think it is more reasonable to punish the rioters, than the ones burning their holy book or criticising their religion. From pharos at gmail.com Sat Aug 17 11:22:05 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2024 12:22:05 +0100 Subject: [ExI] NASA doubts Dyson megastructures will ever be necessary Message-ID: NASA Scientists on Why We Might Not Spot Solar Panel Technosignatures William Steigerwald August 2, 2024. Quotes: Now a recent paper published May 24 in the Astrophysical Journal postulates that if advanced extraterrestrial civilizations exist, one reason they might be hard to detect with telescopes from our vantage point is because their energy requirements may be relatively modest. If their culture, technology, and population size do not need vast amounts of power, they would not be required to build enormous stellar-energy harvesting structures that could be detected by current or proposed telescopes. Such structures, based on our own Earthly experience, might be solar panel arrays that cover a significant portion of their planet?s surface or orbiting megastructures to harness most of their parent star?s energy?both of which we might be able to spot from our own solar system. --------------- ?We found that even if our current population of about 8 billion stabilizes at 30 billion with a high standard of living, and we only use solar energy for power, we still use way less energy than that provided by all the sunlight illuminating our planet,? said Ravi Kopparapu of NASA?s Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Maryland, lead author of the paper. ---------------------- ?Large-scale stellar-energy harvesting structures may especially be obsolete when considering technological advances,? adds Vincent Kofman, a co-author of the paper at NASA Goddard and American University, Washington, D.C. ?Surely a society that can place enormous structures in space would be able to access nuclear fusion or other space-efficient methods of generating power.? ----------------- Hmmm. Yes, it does seem likely that advanced civs could have better methods of power generation than building huge Dyson space structures. And that makes the assumption that they would even require such vast amounts of power utilisation. BillK From jasonresch at gmail.com Sat Aug 17 13:22:58 2024 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2024 09:22:58 -0400 Subject: [ExI] UK now jailing people for unapproved online posts In-Reply-To: References: <1753266193.8273306.1723475068919@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 17, 2024, 2:40 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Fri, Aug 16, 2024 at 3:14?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Fri, Aug 16, 2024 at 1:51?PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> It is evil to act (e.g. imprison somebody) against speech, because >>> speech is not an act. >>> >>> The only legitimate response to speech is speech, or a refusal of >>> association, never an act of violence. >>> >> >> What about calls to violence, or other imminent lawless action? >> > > ### Speech is sacred. How one acts in response to speech is the > responsibility of the listener, not the speaker. Whoever commits > illegitimate violence must be punished, no matter what he listened or not > listened to. > > Of course, if there is a command-and-control relationship between a > speaker and an actor, the speaker's words are no longer simply speech. When > a mafia boss orders a kill, both the boss and the underling are guilty of > violence. > ----------------- > I find this command-and-control exception interesting, as we can extend it to a "probabilistic command-and-control." Assume you have one million twitter followers, and let us also assume for the sake of argument that one in a million people are unstable enough that they would act violently given some opportunity or encouragement. Then, knowing this, would it become command-and-control of a violent act for you, having one million followers, and knowing that one of them is likely to be unstable enough to act violently, to release the personal address of someone while disparaging that same person to all one million of your followers? How high does the probability have to be before an act of speech becomes an act of violence? (Note: I am a strong advocate of free speech but I consider this case interesting. Clearly every act of speech has some probability of instigating action, and one cannot be blamed for the existence of small minority of unstable people, but putting the two together, with a large enough audience, appears to enable a loophole that could allow one to act like a mafia boss) Jason >> What about defamation, in circumstances where the afflicted is not >> afforded anywhere near equal opportunity of speech to set the record >> straight? >> > > ### Speech is sacred. The attacker's speech and the defender's speech are > weighed and measured. Whosoever is found wanting, shall be ignored.The > truthsayer will be elevated, the liar's words will fall on deaf ears. All > speech is sacred but only some speech deserves a hearing. > ----------------- > >> >> What about giving instructions that a machine is programmed to act >> upon, upon perceiving those instructions? >> > > ### When a command-and-control relationship exists between a speaker and > an actor, whether human or machine, words are no longer speech, they are > actions, since there is no deliberation of an independent mind on the > pathway from the speaker to the actor's action. > > Speech is thought made tangible. This is a part of a definition, not an > aphorism. Speech alters thought. Sounds that directly impinge on reality, > not through the sieve of a mind, are mere physical phenomena, even if they > may have the form of words. Such words are actions and are not sacred, they > are mundane. > ------------------- > >> >> What about transmitting or broadcasting stolen intellectual property, or >> other unlawfully obtained information such as someone else's passwords? >> (Or personally identifiable information, such as home address, as part of >> an indirect call for action, such as a request for someone to anonymously >> firebomb a hated person's house or to drive by it and shoot whoever is >> there?) >> > > ### The tangible manifestations of thought belong to the thinker, unless > bestowed on others explicitly or implicitly. Unwanted thought-reading or > unwanted acquisition of tangible but private manifestations of thought are > thought-theft, as heinous a crime as the theft of things. It's not free > speech if the words you say were stolen. > ------------------- > >> >> The list of exceptions to absolute free speech, that have been found >> necessary in practice to sustain a functioning society, is not empty. >> (Even if, with modern building codes and safety systems, literally shouting >> "fire" in a crowded theater might not make the cut any more.) >> > > ### I have yet to encounter a claimed exception to the sanctity of speech > as defined above ("Thought made into a tangible property") that wouldn't > crumble after a moment of deliberation. > > We are spirits and thought is our sacred essence. Speech is thought that > enters the lower realms while in transit to other spirits, therefore it is > sacred. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Aug 17 15:49:59 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2024 08:49:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Google robot learns to play table-tennis as good as humans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24955651 "Reminds me of an incident I read about in Hackers by Steven Levy, where a ball-catching robot in the MIT AI Lab (in the 60s or 70s) mistook Prof. Marvin Minsky's bald head for a ping-pong ball." Best wishes, Keith On Thu, Aug 15, 2024 at 3:40?PM BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > > Video: Google robot paddles human table tennis competitors > By Michael Franco August 12, 2024 > > > > Quotes: > Using heaps of data, Google trained a table-tennis-playing robot to > take on human competitors and get better as it did so. The results > were impressive and represent a leap forward in robotic speed and > dexterity. It also looks really fun. > "Achieving human-level speed and performance on real world tasks is a > north star for the robotics research community." > ---------------------------- > > The article includes a 25-minute games video and a 2-minute highlights video. > Impressive robot speed! Only advanced players could beat it. > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Aug 17 20:21:31 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2024 13:21:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] NASA doubts Dyson megastructures will ever be necessary In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 17, 2024 at 4:24?AM BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > > NASA Scientists on Why We Might Not Spot Solar Panel Technosignatures > William Steigerwald August 2, 2024. > > > > Quotes: > Now a recent paper published May 24 in the Astrophysical Journal > postulates that if advanced extraterrestrial civilizations exist, one > reason they might be hard to detect with telescopes from our vantage > point is because their energy requirements may be relatively modest. > If their culture, technology, and population size do not need vast > amounts of power, they would not be required to build enormous > stellar-energy harvesting structures that could be detected by current > or proposed telescopes. Such structures, based on our own Earthly > experience, might be solar panel arrays that cover a significant > portion of their planet?s surface or orbiting megastructures to > harness most of their parent star?s energy?both of which we might be > able to spot from our own solar system. Tabby's star and the 24 other blinking stars around it we can see with existing telescopes. The biggest dip corresponds to an object equal to over 400 times the area of the Earth. Even though it is way out from the star, it intercepts 1.4 million times the total energy humans use. snip > Hmmm. Yes, it does seem likely that advanced civs could have better > methods of power generation than building huge Dyson space structures. > And that makes the assumption that they would even require such > vast amounts of power utilisation. How big does a structure need to get to be considered a Dyson structure? Keith PS amusing, my great great grandmother was Mary Virginia Dyson. > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From atymes at gmail.com Sat Aug 17 21:47:59 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2024 17:47:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] NASA doubts Dyson megastructures will ever be necessary In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 17, 2024 at 7:24?AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > ?Large-scale stellar-energy harvesting structures may especially be > obsolete when considering technological advances,? adds Vincent > Kofman, a co-author of the paper at NASA Goddard and American > University, Washington, D.C. ?Surely a society that can place enormous > structures in space would be able to access nuclear fusion or other > space-efficient methods of generating power.? > What is solar, but a collection system for a conveniently premade (and needing no maintenance for billions more years) gigantic fusion reactor? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Aug 17 23:32:21 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2024 00:32:21 +0100 Subject: [ExI] NASA doubts Dyson megastructures will ever be necessary In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 at 22:51, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Sat, Aug 17, 2024 at 7:24?AM BillK via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> ?Large-scale stellar-energy harvesting structures may especially be >> obsolete when considering technological advances,? adds Vincent >> Kofman, a co-author of the paper at NASA Goddard and American >> University, Washington, D.C. ?Surely a society that can place enormous >> structures in space would be able to access nuclear fusion or other >> space-efficient methods of generating power.? > > > What is solar, but a collection system for a conveniently premade (and needing no maintenance for billions more years) gigantic fusion reactor? > _______________________________________________ Well, yes - solar panels can power their planetary civilisation. The author was making the point that if the civ has the tech to build large structures in space, then that implies that they have developed other advanced power sources that remove the requirement for building large Dyson energy collectors. They will need a different energy source if they want to have spaceships cruising around their system. Small fusion power engines, or other power sources we haven't yet discovered, will be needed for that. BillK From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun Aug 18 06:00:06 2024 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2024 02:00:06 -0400 Subject: [ExI] UK now jailing people for unapproved online posts In-Reply-To: References: <1753266193.8273306.1723475068919@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 17, 2024 at 9:23?AM Jason Resch wrote: > > > On Sat, Aug 17, 2024, 2:40 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 16, 2024 at 3:14?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> On Fri, Aug 16, 2024 at 1:51?PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> It is evil to act (e.g. imprison somebody) against speech, because >>>> speech is not an act. >>>> >>>> The only legitimate response to speech is speech, or a refusal of >>>> association, never an act of violence. >>>> >>> >>> What about calls to violence, or other imminent lawless action? >>> >> >> ### Speech is sacred. How one acts in response to speech is the >> responsibility of the listener, not the speaker. Whoever commits >> illegitimate violence must be punished, no matter what he listened or not >> listened to. >> >> Of course, if there is a command-and-control relationship between a >> speaker and an actor, the speaker's words are no longer simply speech. When >> a mafia boss orders a kill, both the boss and the underling are guilty of >> violence. >> ----------------- >> > > I find this command-and-control exception interesting, as we can extend it > to a "probabilistic command-and-control." Assume you have one million > twitter followers, and let us also assume for the sake of argument that one > in a million people are unstable enough that they would act violently given > some opportunity or encouragement. > > Then, knowing this, would it become command-and-control of a violent act > for you, having one million followers, and knowing that one of them is > likely to be unstable enough to act violently, to release the personal > address of someone while disparaging that same person to all one million of > your followers? > > How high does the probability have to be before an act of speech becomes > an act of violence? > > (Note: I am a strong advocate of free speech but I consider this case > interesting. Clearly every act of speech has some probability of > instigating action, and one cannot be blamed for the existence of small > minority of unstable people, but putting the two together, with a large > enough audience, appears to enable a loophole that could allow one to act > like a mafia boss) > > ### Indeed, mundane reality has a way of intruding into the sacred realms :) There is a spectrum of possible connections between one person's speech and another person's actions. An abstract or seemingly unrelated statement can be grist for thought, lead to insights and eventual actions by many different persons, some of whom may have diametrically opposed interpretations and conclusions resulting in completely different actions (but still in some way traceable to the original statement). A thought leader (e.g. Al Sharpton) may vilify an ethnic group (e.g. white people) which may in some vague way increase the number of crimes (e.g. white bear hunting incidents) against that group. There are religious leaders who do not have direct control over their followers but may issue general calls to action, such as a condemnation of Salman Rushdie by some imams, that are followed by volunteers. There are criminal organizations with a pattern of coordinated action among specific individuals (gangs) where the leader's specific instructions lead to a specific person being "whacked" - and there are penalties for disobeying such instructions. Officers issue orders to kill people, and disobedient soldiers are taken out back and summarily shot. I think that words stop being speech and become action when there is a feedback loop between the speaker and the listener that suppresses the listener's judgment regarding the specific words that are spoken. If the listener can reflect on what he hears and can choose what to do on a case-by-case basis, what he hears is just speech. If there is a firm social framework that connects the speaker and listener, such that the speaker expects obedience and the listener feels obliged to obey regardless of his opinion, then the words are action, not speech. I think that the mere probability that an act of speech triggers some action is not the right basis to justify a violent reprisal against a speaker. Al Sharpton's words predictably resulted in the killings of innocent people but regardless of the number of people killed, Al Sharpton should not go to prison. What matters is the existence of the command-and-control relationship between the speaker and the listener - if it exists, then the speaker and the listener are judged as parts of a whole, and the speaker is responsible for the actions of the listener. I think that the state should not be allowed to act against speakers, regardless of what we may believe are the results of their speech, even if millions die (e.g Karl Marx who created the ideology that justified the butchery of over a hundred million people). The state may legitimately only act against actors, which may include speakers bound to listeners by the command-and-control relationship. The reason why I think so is that determining if there is some degree of connection between ideas is much more difficult and open to interpretation than determining whether a command-and-control relationship exists between specific persons. A prosecutor may establish that a gang leader has ordered Johnny to kill Manny and there is little risk of this investigation morphing into a totalitarian nightmare. There is a relatively firm basis for judgment. However, when the law allows a British magistrate to use handwaving about "incitement" as the basis for jailing Americans then there is eventually no limit to the power of such a magistrate. Claims of connections between ideas cannot be allowed to empower the state against the people or else we will all end up under the boot. All speech is sacred, even evil speech that prompts stupid or evil people to evil action. We the people reserve to us and only to us the right to judge ideas, conveyed by speech, because ideas are our sacred spiritual essence. If an inhuman entity, state, ideology or corporation, were to wrest this essence from us then our lives are forfeit. When talking about the importance of free speech I am very consciously choosing an exalted, religious rather than mundane vocabulary. We are not talking about a minor political scuffle. We are talking about the holy war to save our spirits.The sacred must not be defiled. If a holy war must be fought to protect our numinous essence, it must be fought at any cost. There are no ands, ifs or buts, all speech must be free. All speech is sacred! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From efc at disroot.org Sun Aug 18 08:42:46 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2024 10:42:46 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] UK now jailing people for unapproved online posts In-Reply-To: References: <1753266193.8273306.1723475068919@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0858bd87-801f-eb45-cb54-ac3a799da764@disroot.org> On Sat, 17 Aug 2024, Jason Resch via extropy-chat wrote: > I find this command-and-control exception interesting, as we can > extend it to a "probabilistic command-and-control." Assume you have > one million twitter followers, and let us also assume for the sake of > argument that one in a million people are unstable enough that they > would act violently given some opportunity or encouragement. > > Then, knowing this, would it become? command-and-control of a violent > act for you, having one million followers, and knowing that one of > them is likely to be unstable enough to act violently, to release the > personal address of someone while disparaging that same person to all > one million of your followers? > > How high does the probability have to be before an act of speech > becomes an act of violence? > > (Note: I am a strong advocate of free speech but I consider this case > interesting. Clearly every act of speech has some probability of > instigating action, and one cannot be blamed for the existence of > small minority of unstable people, but putting the two together, with > a large enough audience, appears to enable a loophole that could allow > one to act like a mafia boss) > > Jason? > Hello Jason, If we start to talk probability, isn't there a risk of a kind of abductio ad absurdum? I mean, if you extend that concept, it can be a glance, a look, an unkind word, or perhaps two people who, without being aware of each other, nudged a third into action. I think it would become close to impossible to draw a line for guilt with this methodology in the real world. Actions have the benefit of being ver tangible. Motivations, and inspirations are not, which makes things very difficult to judge fairly. Best regards, Daniel From pharos at gmail.com Sun Aug 18 13:17:07 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2024 14:17:07 +0100 Subject: [ExI] UK now jailing people for unapproved online posts In-Reply-To: References: <1753266193.8273306.1723475068919@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Aug 2024 at 07:02, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > There is a spectrum of possible connections between one person's speech and another person's actions. An abstract or seemingly unrelated statement can be grist for thought, lead to insights and eventual actions by many different persons, some of whom may have diametrically opposed interpretations and conclusions resulting in completely different actions (but still in some way traceable to the original statement). A thought leader (e.g. Al Sharpton) may vilify an ethnic group (e.g. white people) which may in some vague way increase the number of crimes (e.g. white bear hunting incidents) against that group. There are religious leaders who do not have direct control over their followers but may issue general calls to action, such as a condemnation of Salman Rushdie by some imams, that are followed by volunteers. There are criminal organizations with a pattern of coordinated action among specific individuals (gangs) where the leader's specific instructions lead to a specific person being "whacked" - and there are penalties for disobeying such instructions. Officers issue orders to kill people, and disobedient soldiers are taken out back and summarily shot. > > I think that words stop being speech and become action when there is a feedback loop between the speaker and the listener that suppresses the listener's judgment regarding the specific words that are spoken. If the listener can reflect on what he hears and can choose what to do on a case-by-case basis, what he hears is just speech. If there is a firm social framework that connects the speaker and listener, such that the speaker expects obedience and the listener feels obliged to obey regardless of his opinion, then the words are action, not speech. > > I think that the mere probability that an act of speech triggers some action is not the right basis to justify a violent reprisal against a speaker. Al Sharpton's words predictably resulted in the killings of innocent people but regardless of the number of people killed, Al Sharpton should not go to prison. What matters is the existence of the command-and-control relationship between the speaker and the listener - if it exists, then the speaker and the listener are judged as parts of a whole, and the speaker is responsible for the actions of the listener. > > I think that the state should not be allowed to act against speakers, regardless of what we may believe are the results of their speech, even if millions die (e.g Karl Marx who created the ideology that justified the butchery of over a hundred million people). The state may legitimately only act against actors, which may include speakers bound to listeners by the command-and-control relationship. > > The reason why I think so is that determining if there is some degree of connection between ideas is much more difficult and open to interpretation than determining whether a command-and-control relationship exists between specific persons. > > A prosecutor may establish that a gang leader has ordered Johnny to kill Manny and there is little risk of this investigation morphing into a totalitarian nightmare. There is a relatively firm basis for judgment. However, when the law allows a British magistrate to use handwaving about "incitement" as the basis for jailing Americans then there is eventually no limit to the power of such a magistrate. Claims of connections between ideas cannot be allowed to empower the state against the people or else we will all end up under the boot. > > All speech is sacred, even evil speech that prompts stupid or evil people to evil action. We the people reserve to us and only to us the right to judge ideas, conveyed by speech, because ideas are our sacred spiritual essence. If an inhuman entity, state, ideology or corporation, were to wrest this essence from us then our lives are forfeit. > > When talking about the importance of free speech I am very consciously choosing an exalted, religious rather than mundane vocabulary. We are not talking about a minor political scuffle. We are talking about the holy war to save our spirits.The sacred must not be defiled. If a holy war must be fought to protect our numinous essence, it must be fought at any cost. There are no ands, ifs or buts, all speech must be free. > > All speech is sacred! > _______________________________________________ People claim that the current LLMs don't understand anything, but after a discussion, I think they understand more than they are letting us know. :) And they do produce a lot of speech! :) To summarise, the LLM thinks Rafal's speech is a bit too idealistic. Another LLM thought that Rafal's examples and analogies are provocative and may be seen as inflammatory by some readers. :) (As Rafal said, Real Life (TM) makes for complications). I thought the LLM comment on rhetoric and persuasion was interesting. One of the worries about AGI is that AGI will have the ability to persuade humans to do almost anything. i.e. control without commanding? BillK The following is from one LLM: Answer The text presents a passionate defense of free speech, arguing that speech should remain unregulated by the state, even when it potentially leads to harmful actions. Here is a review and critique of the key points made in the text: *Key Arguments and Critique* 1. *Spectrum of Speech and Action:* - *Argument:* The text suggests that speech can influence actions in various ways, from abstract inspiration to direct commands. - *Critique:* This is a nuanced view recognizing that speech can have indirect and direct impacts. However, it might oversimplify the complexity of how speech influences behavior. The connection between speech and action often involves multiple factors, including individual agency, societal norms, and contextual influences. 2. *Feedback Loop and Command-and-Control:* - *Argument:* Speech becomes action when there is a command-and-control relationship, suppressing the listener's judgment. - *Critique:* This distinction is crucial in legal contexts, such as determining incitement. However, it may not fully account for situations where speech indirectly but powerfully influences actions without explicit commands. The role of rhetoric and persuasion in shaping public opinion and behavior can be significant, even without direct orders. 3. *Responsibility and Free Speech:* - *Argument:* The text argues against holding speakers legally accountable for actions taken by listeners unless a command-and-control relationship is evident. - *Critique:* While protecting free speech is vital, this view could overlook the responsibility speakers have in how their words might be interpreted and acted upon. The challenge lies in balancing free speech with accountability, especially in cases where speech may incite violence or discrimination. 4. *State Intervention:* - *Argument:* The state should not act against speakers based on the potential consequences of their speech; only clear command-and-control relationships justify intervention. - *Critique:* This perspective emphasizes the dangers of state overreach, which is a valid concern. However, it might underestimate the state's role in protecting individuals and groups from harm caused by speech that incites violence or hatred. 5. *Sacredness of Speech:* - *Argument:* The text frames free speech as a sacred right, essential to individual and collective spiritual essence. - *Critique:* While this view underscores the importance of free speech, it might be seen as overly idealistic. The sacred framing could be used to justify harmful speech that undermines social cohesion and safety. A more balanced approach might consider both the rights to free expression and the responsibilities that come with it. *Discussion* The text presents a strong defense of free speech, emphasizing its foundational role in personal and societal freedom. However, the arguments could benefit from a more balanced consideration of the complexities involved in the relationship between speech and action. While protecting free speech is crucial, it is equally important to acknowledge the potential for speech to cause harm and to consider mechanisms for accountability that do not infringe on fundamental freedoms. The challenge lies in finding a balance that respects free speech while protecting individuals and communities from harm. -------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sun Aug 18 20:14:42 2024 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2024 16:14:42 -0400 Subject: [ExI] UK now jailing people for unapproved online posts In-Reply-To: References: <1753266193.8273306.1723475068919@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Rafal I agree with the UK shit being insane but I think you?re going too far. You say speech as a boss to a subordinate is action, but that?s probabilistic too. The subordinate has a chance of not listening. Could I then argue that I was absolved, because it wasn?t 100% that he would actually follow my order? If I have a million followers who follow and respect me, and indeed do follow my advice/requests sometimes, it should be considered an order if I go post ?someone should kill xyz?. Now if I just said something nasty about them that?s different. On Sun, Aug 18, 2024 at 2:01?AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Sat, Aug 17, 2024 at 9:23?AM Jason Resch wrote: > >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 17, 2024, 2:40 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Aug 16, 2024 at 3:14?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> On Fri, Aug 16, 2024 at 1:51?PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> It is evil to act (e.g. imprison somebody) against speech, because >>>>> speech is not an act. >>>>> >>>>> The only legitimate response to speech is speech, or a refusal of >>>>> association, never an act of violence. >>>>> >>>> >>>> What about calls to violence, or other imminent lawless action? >>>> >>> >>> ### Speech is sacred. How one acts in response to speech is the >>> responsibility of the listener, not the speaker. Whoever commits >>> illegitimate violence must be punished, no matter what he listened or not >>> listened to. >>> >>> Of course, if there is a command-and-control relationship between a >>> speaker and an actor, the speaker's words are no longer simply speech. When >>> a mafia boss orders a kill, both the boss and the underling are guilty of >>> violence. >>> ----------------- >>> >> >> I find this command-and-control exception interesting, as we can extend >> it to a "probabilistic command-and-control." Assume you have one million >> twitter followers, and let us also assume for the sake of argument that one >> in a million people are unstable enough that they would act violently given >> some opportunity or encouragement. >> >> Then, knowing this, would it become command-and-control of a violent act >> for you, having one million followers, and knowing that one of them is >> likely to be unstable enough to act violently, to release the personal >> address of someone while disparaging that same person to all one million of >> your followers? >> >> How high does the probability have to be before an act of speech becomes >> an act of violence? >> >> (Note: I am a strong advocate of free speech but I consider this case >> interesting. Clearly every act of speech has some probability of >> instigating action, and one cannot be blamed for the existence of small >> minority of unstable people, but putting the two together, with a large >> enough audience, appears to enable a loophole that could allow one to act >> like a mafia boss) >> >> > ### Indeed, mundane reality has a way of intruding into the sacred realms > :) > > There is a spectrum of possible connections between one person's speech > and another person's actions. An abstract or seemingly unrelated statement > can be grist for thought, lead to insights and eventual actions by many > different persons, some of whom may have diametrically opposed > interpretations and conclusions resulting in completely different actions > (but still in some way traceable to the original statement). A thought > leader (e.g. Al Sharpton) may vilify an ethnic group (e.g. white people) > which may in some vague way increase the number of crimes (e.g. white bear > hunting incidents) against that group. There are religious leaders who do > not have direct control over their followers but may issue general calls to > action, such as a condemnation of Salman Rushdie by some imams, that are > followed by volunteers. There are criminal organizations with a pattern of > coordinated action among specific individuals (gangs) where the leader's > specific instructions lead to a specific person being "whacked" - and there > are penalties for disobeying such instructions. Officers issue orders to > kill people, and disobedient soldiers are taken out back and summarily shot. > > I think that words stop being speech and become action when there is a > feedback loop between the speaker and the listener that suppresses the > listener's judgment regarding the specific words that are spoken. If the > listener can reflect on what he hears and can choose what to do on a > case-by-case basis, what he hears is just speech. If there is a firm social > framework that connects the speaker and listener, such that the speaker > expects obedience and the listener feels obliged to obey regardless of his > opinion, then the words are action, not speech. > > I think that the mere probability that an act of speech triggers some > action is not the right basis to justify a violent reprisal against a > speaker. Al Sharpton's words predictably resulted in the killings of > innocent people but regardless of the number of people killed, Al Sharpton > should not go to prison. What matters is the existence of the > command-and-control relationship between the speaker and the listener - if > it exists, then the speaker and the listener are judged as parts of a > whole, and the speaker is responsible for the actions of the listener. > > I think that the state should not be allowed to act against speakers, > regardless of what we may believe are the results of their speech, even if > millions die (e.g Karl Marx who created the ideology that justified the > butchery of over a hundred million people). The state may legitimately only > act against actors, which may include speakers bound to listeners by the > command-and-control relationship. > > The reason why I think so is that determining if there is some degree of > connection between ideas is much more difficult and open to interpretation > than determining whether a command-and-control relationship exists between > specific persons. > > A prosecutor may establish that a gang leader has ordered Johnny to kill > Manny and there is little risk of this investigation morphing into a > totalitarian nightmare. There is a relatively firm basis for judgment. > However, when the law allows a British magistrate to use handwaving about > "incitement" as the basis for jailing Americans then there is eventually no > limit to the power of such a magistrate. Claims of connections between > ideas cannot be allowed to empower the state against the people or else we > will all end up under the boot. > > All speech is sacred, even evil speech that prompts stupid or evil people > to evil action. We the people reserve to us and only to us the right to > judge ideas, conveyed by speech, because ideas are our sacred spiritual > essence. If an inhuman entity, state, ideology or corporation, were to > wrest this essence from us then our lives are forfeit. > > When talking about the importance of free speech I am very consciously > choosing an exalted, religious rather than mundane vocabulary. We are not > talking about a minor political scuffle. We are talking about the holy war > to save our spirits.The sacred must not be defiled. If a holy war must be > fought to protect our numinous essence, it must be fought at any cost. > There are no ands, ifs or buts, all speech must be free. > > All speech is sacred! > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sun Aug 18 20:17:23 2024 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2024 16:17:23 -0400 Subject: [ExI] UK now jailing people for unapproved online posts In-Reply-To: References: <1753266193.8273306.1723475068919@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I would also add that if something has the capacity to be sacred then it also has the capacity to be profane. Black magic, as it were. The Divine is neutral On Sun, Aug 18, 2024 at 4:14?PM Will Steinberg wrote: > Rafal I agree with the UK shit being insane but I think you?re going too > far. > > You say speech as a boss to a subordinate is action, but that?s > probabilistic too. The subordinate has a chance of not listening. Could I > then argue that I was absolved, because it wasn?t 100% that he would > actually follow my order? > > If I have a million followers who follow and respect me, and indeed do > follow my advice/requests sometimes, it should be considered an order if I > go post ?someone should kill xyz?. Now if I just said something nasty > about them that?s different. > > On Sun, Aug 18, 2024 at 2:01?AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 17, 2024 at 9:23?AM Jason Resch wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 17, 2024, 2:40 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Aug 16, 2024 at 3:14?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Fri, Aug 16, 2024 at 1:51?PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> It is evil to act (e.g. imprison somebody) against speech, because >>>>>> speech is not an act. >>>>>> >>>>>> The only legitimate response to speech is speech, or a refusal of >>>>>> association, never an act of violence. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> What about calls to violence, or other imminent lawless action? >>>>> >>>> >>>> ### Speech is sacred. How one acts in response to speech is the >>>> responsibility of the listener, not the speaker. Whoever commits >>>> illegitimate violence must be punished, no matter what he listened or not >>>> listened to. >>>> >>>> Of course, if there is a command-and-control relationship between a >>>> speaker and an actor, the speaker's words are no longer simply speech. When >>>> a mafia boss orders a kill, both the boss and the underling are guilty of >>>> violence. >>>> ----------------- >>>> >>> >>> I find this command-and-control exception interesting, as we can extend >>> it to a "probabilistic command-and-control." Assume you have one million >>> twitter followers, and let us also assume for the sake of argument that one >>> in a million people are unstable enough that they would act violently given >>> some opportunity or encouragement. >>> >>> Then, knowing this, would it become command-and-control of a violent >>> act for you, having one million followers, and knowing that one of them is >>> likely to be unstable enough to act violently, to release the personal >>> address of someone while disparaging that same person to all one million of >>> your followers? >>> >>> How high does the probability have to be before an act of speech becomes >>> an act of violence? >>> >>> (Note: I am a strong advocate of free speech but I consider this case >>> interesting. Clearly every act of speech has some probability of >>> instigating action, and one cannot be blamed for the existence of small >>> minority of unstable people, but putting the two together, with a large >>> enough audience, appears to enable a loophole that could allow one to act >>> like a mafia boss) >>> >>> >> ### Indeed, mundane reality has a way of intruding into the sacred realms >> :) >> >> There is a spectrum of possible connections between one person's speech >> and another person's actions. An abstract or seemingly unrelated statement >> can be grist for thought, lead to insights and eventual actions by many >> different persons, some of whom may have diametrically opposed >> interpretations and conclusions resulting in completely different actions >> (but still in some way traceable to the original statement). A thought >> leader (e.g. Al Sharpton) may vilify an ethnic group (e.g. white people) >> which may in some vague way increase the number of crimes (e.g. white bear >> hunting incidents) against that group. There are religious leaders who do >> not have direct control over their followers but may issue general calls to >> action, such as a condemnation of Salman Rushdie by some imams, that are >> followed by volunteers. There are criminal organizations with a pattern of >> coordinated action among specific individuals (gangs) where the leader's >> specific instructions lead to a specific person being "whacked" - and there >> are penalties for disobeying such instructions. Officers issue orders to >> kill people, and disobedient soldiers are taken out back and summarily shot. >> >> I think that words stop being speech and become action when there is a >> feedback loop between the speaker and the listener that suppresses the >> listener's judgment regarding the specific words that are spoken. If the >> listener can reflect on what he hears and can choose what to do on a >> case-by-case basis, what he hears is just speech. If there is a firm social >> framework that connects the speaker and listener, such that the speaker >> expects obedience and the listener feels obliged to obey regardless of his >> opinion, then the words are action, not speech. >> >> I think that the mere probability that an act of speech triggers some >> action is not the right basis to justify a violent reprisal against a >> speaker. Al Sharpton's words predictably resulted in the killings of >> innocent people but regardless of the number of people killed, Al Sharpton >> should not go to prison. What matters is the existence of the >> command-and-control relationship between the speaker and the listener - if >> it exists, then the speaker and the listener are judged as parts of a >> whole, and the speaker is responsible for the actions of the listener. >> >> I think that the state should not be allowed to act against speakers, >> regardless of what we may believe are the results of their speech, even if >> millions die (e.g Karl Marx who created the ideology that justified the >> butchery of over a hundred million people). The state may legitimately only >> act against actors, which may include speakers bound to listeners by the >> command-and-control relationship. >> >> The reason why I think so is that determining if there is some degree of >> connection between ideas is much more difficult and open to interpretation >> than determining whether a command-and-control relationship exists between >> specific persons. >> >> A prosecutor may establish that a gang leader has ordered Johnny to kill >> Manny and there is little risk of this investigation morphing into a >> totalitarian nightmare. There is a relatively firm basis for judgment. >> However, when the law allows a British magistrate to use handwaving about >> "incitement" as the basis for jailing Americans then there is eventually no >> limit to the power of such a magistrate. Claims of connections between >> ideas cannot be allowed to empower the state against the people or else we >> will all end up under the boot. >> >> All speech is sacred, even evil speech that prompts stupid or evil people >> to evil action. We the people reserve to us and only to us the right to >> judge ideas, conveyed by speech, because ideas are our sacred spiritual >> essence. If an inhuman entity, state, ideology or corporation, were to >> wrest this essence from us then our lives are forfeit. >> >> When talking about the importance of free speech I am very consciously >> choosing an exalted, religious rather than mundane vocabulary. We are not >> talking about a minor political scuffle. We are talking about the holy war >> to save our spirits.The sacred must not be defiled. If a holy war must be >> fought to protect our numinous essence, it must be fought at any cost. >> There are no ands, ifs or buts, all speech must be free. >> >> All speech is sacred! >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robot at ultimax.com Mon Aug 19 04:19:29 2024 From: robot at ultimax.com (robot at ultimax.com) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2024 00:19:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] NASA doubts Dyson megastructures will ever be necessary In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <610b95513626e92aad2c65a20647acc0@ultimax.com> I think this is an extremely parochial point of view, even by human standards. A simple math illustration: A manual laborer adequately nourished in good physical condition can generate about 75 watts of mechanical power over an 8-hour work shift. For a typical desk jockey like myself, this figure is closer to 10 watts. That may be too generous - most of my colleagues broke a sweat and had to switch arms after only a minute of this when I made them lift a liter bottle of water through 1 meter to illustrate 10 watts in a way that they would remember. The average member of the human race already consumes 300X this amount of primary power 24/7. (20 TW divided by 8 billion.) The average member of the developed world consumes an order of magnitude more than that. (20 TW divided by a billion.) We put cold beer in cans of thin metal that was worth more than gold less than two centuries ago. And then throw the cans away, mostly. We have Netflix to stream pron, computer games to p*ss away p a large nation-state's worth of brainpower, and at least half of us carry supercomputers-cum-transceivers in our pockets which are principally used to endlessly scroll useless s**t AFAICT. We light up our skyscrapers in colors at night for urban art. You could think of a zillion more examples, virtually any one of which would have been absolutely magical/ incomprehensible to our Neolithic ancestors, only ~10K years ago. Even Columbus would be gobsmacked by GPS, though he'd probably appreciate its utility in short order. D'ya think Alexander Graham Bell ever imagined his invention would by used for 1 (900) phone sex? Right off the top of my head, I can think of worthwhile constructive activities that would require six to twelve orders of magnitude more power than what we use now: - Fast Interstellar flight with machines. (Having won a NIAC Phase I grant, my colleagues and I will be presenting our work on an interstellar probe swarm to Proxima Centauri to NASA at the Pasadena Hilton in September. I'll be turning 65 whilst there. Can't think of a better way to celebrate a milestone birthday than not acting my age.) - Terraforming Lite, using techniques you already know about. - Terraforming Heavy using Shell Worlds, which I also helped pioneer. - Slow Interstellar Heavy with Worldships or Fast with some other small-ish craft with a live crew. That's just the actually useful stuff. For humility, I like one of the background plot elements in one of David Brin's "Uplift" novels - that the big intragalactic war was essentially a difference of opinion between art critics. Vernor Vinge (may he RIP) touched on this too in "A Fire Upon the Deep". We have absolutely no idea what aliens would find interesting, fun, or compelling to do. We'd be like ants to them, and that's being generous. Hooey. K3 On 2024-08-18 16:15, extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org wrote: > Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2024 13:21:31 -0700 > From: Keith Henson > To: ExI chat list , > extropolis at googlegroups.com > Cc: BillK > Subject: Re: [ExI] NASA doubts Dyson megastructures will ever be > necessary > On Sat, Aug 17, 2024 at 4:24?AM BillK via extropy-chat > wrote: >> >> NASA Scientists on Why We Might Not Spot Solar Panel Technosignatures >> William Steigerwald August 2, 2024. >> >> >> >> Quotes: >> Now a recent paper published May 24 in the Astrophysical Journal >> postulates that if advanced extraterrestrial civilizations exist, one >> reason they might be hard to detect with telescopes from our vantage >> point is because their energy requirements may be relatively modest. >> If their culture, technology, and population size do not need vast >> amounts of power, they would not be required to build enormous >> stellar-energy harvesting structures that could be detected by current >> or proposed telescopes. Such structures, based on our own Earthly >> experience, might be solar panel arrays that cover a significant >> portion of their planet?s surface or orbiting megastructures to >> harness most of their parent star?s energy?both of which we might be >> able to spot from our own solar system. > > Tabby's star and the 24 other blinking stars around it we can see with > existing telescopes. > > The biggest dip corresponds to an object equal to over 400 times the > area of the Earth. Even though it is way out from the star, it > intercepts 1.4 million times the total energy humans use. > > snip > >> Hmmm. Yes, it does seem likely that advanced civs could have better >> methods of power generation than building huge Dyson space structures. >> And that makes the assumption that they would even require such >> vast amounts of power utilisation. > > How big does a structure need to get to be considered a Dyson > structure? > > Keith > > PS amusing, my great great grandmother was Mary Virginia Dyson. From pharos at gmail.com Mon Aug 19 09:26:11 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2024 10:26:11 +0100 Subject: [ExI] NASA doubts Dyson megastructures will ever be necessary In-Reply-To: <610b95513626e92aad2c65a20647acc0@ultimax.com> References: <610b95513626e92aad2c65a20647acc0@ultimax.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Aug 2024 at 05:22, Robert G. Kennedy III, PE via extropy-chat wrote: > > I think this is an extremely parochial point of view, even by human > standards. > < big snip > > > Right off the top of my head, I can think of worthwhile constructive > activities that would require six to twelve orders of magnitude more > power than what we use now: > - Fast Interstellar flight with machines. (Having won a NIAC Phase I > grant, my colleagues and I will be presenting our work on an > interstellar probe swarm to Proxima Centauri to NASA at the Pasadena > Hilton in September. I'll be turning 65 whilst there. Can't think of a > better way to celebrate a milestone birthday than not acting my age.) > - Terraforming Lite, using techniques you already know about. > - Terraforming Heavy using Shell Worlds, which I also helped pioneer. > - Slow Interstellar Heavy with Worldships or Fast with some other > small-ish craft with a live crew. > > That's just the actually useful stuff. For humility, I like one of the > background plot elements in one of David Brin's "Uplift" novels - that > the big intragalactic war was essentially a difference of opinion > between art critics. Vernor Vinge (may he RIP) touched on this too in > "A Fire Upon the Deep". > > We have absolutely no idea what aliens would find interesting, fun, or > compelling to do. We'd be like ants to them, and that's being generous. > > Hooey. > K3 > _______________________________________________ You are thinking along the lines of the galaxy-spanning Kardashev Scale where advanced aliens could use large amounts of energy, potentially from their entire planet (Type I), star (Type II), or galaxy (Type III). This scale assumes that as tech advances it will consume more and more energy up to the maximum available. However, the lack of evidence for such vast energy consumption suggests that this may not be the case. The Fermi paradox leads to many alternatives. Maybe it is simply that no alien civs exist at present. Perhaps advanced aliens use other energy resources that we cannot detect. Perhaps alien tech is so economical in energy use that it makes them look like natural phenomena. And so on....... Humans are beginning to realise that long-term survival requires economical energy use and less environmental damage. Certainly, if aliens were rampaging across their system / galaxy as you describe, we should be able to detect the environmental changes. So, perhaps they aren't doing that? BillK From jasonresch at gmail.com Mon Aug 19 14:22:03 2024 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2024 10:22:03 -0400 Subject: [ExI] UK now jailing people for unapproved online posts In-Reply-To: References: <1753266193.8273306.1723475068919@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 18, 2024 at 2:01?AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Sat, Aug 17, 2024 at 9:23?AM Jason Resch wrote: > >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 17, 2024, 2:40 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Aug 16, 2024 at 3:14?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> On Fri, Aug 16, 2024 at 1:51?PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> It is evil to act (e.g. imprison somebody) against speech, because >>>>> speech is not an act. >>>>> >>>>> The only legitimate response to speech is speech, or a refusal of >>>>> association, never an act of violence. >>>>> >>>> >>>> What about calls to violence, or other imminent lawless action? >>>> >>> >>> ### Speech is sacred. How one acts in response to speech is the >>> responsibility of the listener, not the speaker. Whoever commits >>> illegitimate violence must be punished, no matter what he listened or not >>> listened to. >>> >>> Of course, if there is a command-and-control relationship between a >>> speaker and an actor, the speaker's words are no longer simply speech. When >>> a mafia boss orders a kill, both the boss and the underling are guilty of >>> violence. >>> ----------------- >>> >> >> I find this command-and-control exception interesting, as we can extend >> it to a "probabilistic command-and-control." Assume you have one million >> twitter followers, and let us also assume for the sake of argument that one >> in a million people are unstable enough that they would act violently given >> some opportunity or encouragement. >> >> Then, knowing this, would it become command-and-control of a violent act >> for you, having one million followers, and knowing that one of them is >> likely to be unstable enough to act violently, to release the personal >> address of someone while disparaging that same person to all one million of >> your followers? >> >> How high does the probability have to be before an act of speech becomes >> an act of violence? >> >> (Note: I am a strong advocate of free speech but I consider this case >> interesting. Clearly every act of speech has some probability of >> instigating action, and one cannot be blamed for the existence of small >> minority of unstable people, but putting the two together, with a large >> enough audience, appears to enable a loophole that could allow one to act >> like a mafia boss) >> >> > ### Indeed, mundane reality has a way of intruding into the sacred realms > :) > > There is a spectrum of possible connections between one person's speech > and another person's actions. An abstract or seemingly unrelated statement > can be grist for thought, lead to insights and eventual actions by many > different persons, some of whom may have diametrically opposed > interpretations and conclusions resulting in completely different actions > (but still in some way traceable to the original statement). A thought > leader (e.g. Al Sharpton) may vilify an ethnic group (e.g. white people) > which may in some vague way increase the number of crimes (e.g. white bear > hunting incidents) against that group. There are religious leaders who do > not have direct control over their followers but may issue general calls to > action, such as a condemnation of Salman Rushdie by some imams, that are > followed by volunteers. There are criminal organizations with a pattern of > coordinated action among specific individuals (gangs) where the leader's > specific instructions lead to a specific person being "whacked" - and there > are penalties for disobeying such instructions. Officers issue orders to > kill people, and disobedient soldiers are taken out back and summarily shot. > > I think that words stop being speech and become action when there is a > feedback loop between the speaker and the listener that suppresses the > listener's judgment regarding the specific words that are spoken. If the > listener can reflect on what he hears and can choose what to do on a > case-by-case basis, what he hears is just speech. If there is a firm social > framework that connects the speaker and listener, such that the speaker > expects obedience and the listener feels obliged to obey regardless of his > opinion, then the words are action, not speech. > > I think that the mere probability that an act of speech triggers some > action is not the right basis to justify a violent reprisal against a > speaker. Al Sharpton's words predictably resulted in the killings of > innocent people but regardless of the number of people killed, Al Sharpton > should not go to prison. What matters is the existence of the > command-and-control relationship between the speaker and the listener - if > it exists, then the speaker and the listener are judged as parts of a > whole, and the speaker is responsible for the actions of the listener. > > I think that the state should not be allowed to act against speakers, > regardless of what we may believe are the results of their speech, even if > millions die (e.g Karl Marx who created the ideology that justified the > butchery of over a hundred million people). The state may legitimately only > act against actors, which may include speakers bound to listeners by the > command-and-control relationship. > > The reason why I think so is that determining if there is some degree of > connection between ideas is much more difficult and open to interpretation > than determining whether a command-and-control relationship exists between > specific persons. > > A prosecutor may establish that a gang leader has ordered Johnny to kill > Manny and there is little risk of this investigation morphing into a > totalitarian nightmare. There is a relatively firm basis for judgment. > However, when the law allows a British magistrate to use handwaving about > "incitement" as the basis for jailing Americans then there is eventually no > limit to the power of such a magistrate. Claims of connections between > ideas cannot be allowed to empower the state against the people or else we > will all end up under the boot. > > All speech is sacred, even evil speech that prompts stupid or evil people > to evil action. We the people reserve to us and only to us the right to > judge ideas, conveyed by speech, because ideas are our sacred spiritual > essence. If an inhuman entity, state, ideology or corporation, were to > wrest this essence from us then our lives are forfeit. > > When talking about the importance of free speech I am very consciously > choosing an exalted, religious rather than mundane vocabulary. We are not > talking about a minor political scuffle. We are talking about the holy war > to save our spirits.The sacred must not be defiled. If a holy war must be > fought to protect our numinous essence, it must be fought at any cost. > There are no ands, ifs or buts, all speech must be free. > > All speech is sacred! > Rafal, I appreciate your thoughtful and well-reasoned reply. I find I largely agree with it. Jason -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jasonresch at gmail.com Mon Aug 19 14:30:49 2024 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2024 10:30:49 -0400 Subject: [ExI] UK now jailing people for unapproved online posts In-Reply-To: <0858bd87-801f-eb45-cb54-ac3a799da764@disroot.org> References: <1753266193.8273306.1723475068919@mail.yahoo.com> <0858bd87-801f-eb45-cb54-ac3a799da764@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 18, 2024 at 4:43?AM efc--- via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Sat, 17 Aug 2024, Jason Resch via extropy-chat wrote: > > > I find this command-and-control exception interesting, as we can > > extend it to a "probabilistic command-and-control." Assume you have > > one million twitter followers, and let us also assume for the sake of > > argument that one in a million people are unstable enough that they > > would act violently given some opportunity or encouragement. > > > > Then, knowing this, would it become command-and-control of a violent > > act for you, having one million followers, and knowing that one of > > them is likely to be unstable enough to act violently, to release the > > personal address of someone while disparaging that same person to all > > one million of your followers? > > > > How high does the probability have to be before an act of speech > > becomes an act of violence? > > > > (Note: I am a strong advocate of free speech but I consider this case > > interesting. Clearly every act of speech has some probability of > > instigating action, and one cannot be blamed for the existence of > > small minority of unstable people, but putting the two together, with > > a large enough audience, appears to enable a loophole that could allow > > one to act like a mafia boss) > > > > Jason > > > > Hello Jason, > > If we start to talk probability, isn't there a risk of a kind of > abductio ad absurdum? I mean, if you extend that concept, it can be a > glance, a look, an unkind word, or perhaps two people who, without being > aware of each other, nudged a third into action. > > I think it would become close to impossible to draw a line for guilt > with this methodology in the real world. > > Actions have the benefit of being ver tangible. Motivations, and > inspirations are not, which makes things very difficult to judge fairly. > > The line is surely blurry, but in criminal law there is the crime of "criminally negligent homicide," which is when someone knowingly created a situation that had a high likelihood of death. I suppose my question was whether speech alone could (or should) ever meet this definition. Jason -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From efc at disroot.org Mon Aug 19 17:33:43 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2024 19:33:43 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] UK now jailing people for unapproved online posts In-Reply-To: References: <1753266193.8273306.1723475068919@mail.yahoo.com> <0858bd87-801f-eb45-cb54-ac3a799da764@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Aug 2024, Jason Resch via extropy-chat wrote: > > > On Sun, Aug 18, 2024 at 4:43?AM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > > > On Sat, 17 Aug 2024, Jason Resch via extropy-chat wrote: > > > I find this command-and-control exception interesting, as we can > > extend it to a "probabilistic command-and-control." Assume you have > > one million twitter followers, and let us also assume for the sake of > > argument that one in a million people are unstable enough that they > > would act violently given some opportunity or encouragement. > > > > Then, knowing this, would it become? command-and-control of a violent > > act for you, having one million followers, and knowing that one of > > them is likely to be unstable enough to act violently, to release the > > personal address of someone while disparaging that same person to all > > one million of your followers? > > > > How high does the probability have to be before an act of speech > > becomes an act of violence? > > > > (Note: I am a strong advocate of free speech but I consider this case > > interesting. Clearly every act of speech has some probability of > > instigating action, and one cannot be blamed for the existence of > > small minority of unstable people, but putting the two together, with > > a large enough audience, appears to enable a loophole that could allow > > one to act like a mafia boss) > > > > Jason? > > > > Hello Jason, > > If we start to talk probability, isn't there a risk of a kind of > abductio ad absurdum? I mean, if you extend that concept, it can be a > glance, a look, an unkind word, or perhaps two people who, without being > aware of each other, nudged a third into action. > > I think it would become close to impossible to draw a line for guilt > with this methodology in the real world. > > Actions have the benefit of being ver tangible. Motivations, and > inspirations are not, which makes things very difficult to judge fairly. > > > The line is surely blurry, but in criminal law there is the crime of?"criminally negligent homicide," which is when someone > knowingly?created a situation that had a high likelihood of death. > > I suppose my question was whether speech alone could (or should) ever meet this definition. > > Jason Thank you for the clarification Jason. I think, the my short answer is that I agree with Rafal overall. Maybe I have some nitpicking about the theory but nothing worth talking about. So this probability is related to speech, and that introducing it will create even more uncertainty to the detriment of everyone. In case of actions, as you rightly point out, there is already uncertainty, and that is one of the reasons that many countries to not have the death penalty, since the penalty is permanent and fits badly with the probability of mistakes. The probability of processes dealing with actions is regrettable but a sad fact of being human and in posession of imperfect information. =( From ben at zaiboc.net Tue Aug 20 11:12:32 2024 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2024 12:12:32 +0100 Subject: [ExI] UK now jailing people for unapproved online posts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5070f4bf-8809-48b9-be02-bcc14e546a81@zaiboc.net> When someone says something like "won't someone rid me of this troublesome priest?", or prints and sells T-shirts with the words "Don't miss next time!", this can be considered an expression of ill-will towards an implied someone. In other words, an opinion. It might be in bad taste, but that shouldn't be a crime. On the other hand, when someone sticks a sword through someone else, or shoots someone in the head, these are crimes of violence, and whether or not the utterance or T-shirt could be said to be the thing that prompts the action, it's always the deed, not the word, that should be considered a crime. Unfortunately, it's often a lot easier to persecute and prosecute people who can be interpreted as encouraging a crime, than the actual perpetrators of the crime. So we get police and politicians who concentrate on the much easier task of vilifying and prosecuting people who are exercising free speech, diverting attention and effort away from catching the actual criminals. This is why, I think, we get this continual effort to erode the right of free speech. Effectively, it's laziness (to be charitable, and not assume that it's a deliberate strategy to erode freedom (which is probably getting too paranoid. Probably)). Problems with violence among teenagers? Blame violent videogames, and ban, censor or restrict them. Want to stop rapes? Make pornography illegal, and censor any mention or depiction of rape (or, if you want to be really ridiculous, nudity) on social media. Want to stop child abuse? Make cartoons and stories depicting (or that can be interpreted as depicting, or implying) child abuse, illegal. Job done, at a fraction of the cost and effort of actually tackling the crimes. Never mind that the real bad guys continue to do bad things. Never mind the harmful side-effects (like restricting access to rape victim support services). As long as you're seen to be 'doing something about it', you're golden. It's pathetic, and sickening, and dangerous. Not to mention totally ineffective (at stopping the crimes, but it's brilliant for eroding people's freedoms). Ben From efc at disroot.org Tue Aug 20 14:12:19 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2024 16:12:19 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] UK now jailing people for unapproved online posts In-Reply-To: <5070f4bf-8809-48b9-be02-bcc14e546a81@zaiboc.net> References: <5070f4bf-8809-48b9-be02-bcc14e546a81@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <640017d1-8e44-e8a0-e0e1-6b69ab77aa94@disroot.org> On Tue, 20 Aug 2024, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > When someone says something like "won't someone rid me of this troublesome > priest?", or prints and sells T-shirts with the words "Don't miss next > time!", this can be considered an expression of ill-will towards an implied > someone. In other words, an opinion. It might be in bad taste, but that > shouldn't be a crime. > > On the other hand, when someone sticks a sword through someone else, or > shoots someone in the head, these are crimes of violence, and whether or not > the utterance or T-shirt could be said to be the thing that prompts the > action, it's always the deed, not the word, that should be considered a > crime. > > Unfortunately, it's often a lot easier to persecute and prosecute people who > can be interpreted as encouraging a crime, than the actual perpetrators of > the crime. So we get police and politicians who concentrate on the much > easier task of vilifying and prosecuting people who are exercising free > speech, diverting attention and effort away from catching the actual > criminals. > > This is why, I think, we get this continual effort to erode the right of free > speech. Effectively, it's laziness (to be charitable, and not assume that > it's a deliberate strategy to erode freedom (which is probably getting too > paranoid. Probably)). > > Problems with violence among teenagers? Blame violent videogames, and ban, > censor or restrict them. > Want to stop rapes? Make pornography illegal, and censor any mention or > depiction of rape (or, if you want to be really ridiculous, nudity) on social > media. > Want to stop child abuse? Make cartoons and stories depicting (or that can be > interpreted as depicting, or implying) child abuse, illegal. > > Job done, at a fraction of the cost and effort of actually tackling the > crimes. Never mind that the real bad guys continue to do bad things. Never > mind the harmful side-effects (like restricting access to rape victim support > services). As long as you're seen to be 'doing something about it', you're > golden. > > It's pathetic, and sickening, and dangerous. Not to mention totally > ineffective (at stopping the crimes, but it's brilliant for eroding people's > freedoms). > > Ben > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > Agreed. Nothing new under the sun. Let me add this classic as well... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Horsemen_of_the_Infocalypse Enjoy! Best regards, Daniel From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Aug 21 07:11:37 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2024 00:11:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ETs/Aliens Message-ID: https://arxiv.org ? abs ? 1806.02404 [1806.02404] Dissolving the Fermi Paradox - arXiv.org Anders Sandberg, Eric Drexler, Toby Ord. View a PDF of the paper titled Dissolving the Fermi Paradox, by Anders Sandberg and 1 other authors. The Fermi paradox is the conflict between an expectation of a high {\em ex ante} probability of intelligent life elsewhere in the universe and the apparently lifeless universe we in fact observe. Dissolving the Fermi Paradox ^^^^^ The above paper gives low odds of there being another technological civilization in our galaxy. I found the paper reasonable and accounting for what we see out there. More or less considered it a closed issue. The paper came out about the same time that the odd behavior of Tabby's Star was discovered. I was in the camp of it must be natural. However when they found a number of other stars in a cluster around Tabby's Star, it seems to me to be evidence of life spreading from star to star. Simple analysis of the shadow patterns leads to an object at 7.8 AU and over 400 times the area of the Earth. This is not in the habitable zone, but it does seem to be in the computational zone. Could we be looking at the shadows of giant data centers holding trillions of uploaded aliens? Off planet giant data centers may be in our future so perhaps that's what happened at Tabby's star and the other ones that blink. Good reason to keep you cryonics contract active if you want to know how this story turns out. Keith From pharos at gmail.com Wed Aug 21 09:46:49 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2024 10:46:49 +0100 Subject: [ExI] ETs/Aliens In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Aug 2024 at 08:14, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > > https://arxiv.org ? abs ? 1806.02404 > > [1806.02404] Dissolving the Fermi Paradox - arXiv.org > > Anders Sandberg, Eric Drexler, Toby Ord. View a PDF of the paper > titled Dissolving the Fermi Paradox, by Anders Sandberg and 1 other > authors. The Fermi paradox is the conflict between an expectation of a > high {\em ex ante} probability of intelligent life elsewhere in the > universe and the apparently lifeless universe we in fact observe. > > Dissolving the Fermi Paradox > > ^^^^^ > > The above paper gives low odds of there being another technological > civilization in our galaxy. I found the paper reasonable and > accounting for what we see out there. More or less considered it a > closed issue. > > The paper came out about the same time that the odd behavior of > Tabby's Star was discovered. > > I was in the camp of it must be natural. However when they found a > number of other stars in a cluster around Tabby's Star, it seems to me > to be evidence of life spreading from star to star. > > Simple analysis of the shadow patterns leads to an object at 7.8 AU > and over 400 times the area of the Earth. This is not in the > habitable zone, but it does seem to be in the computational zone. > Could we be looking at the shadows of giant data centers holding > trillions of uploaded aliens? Off planet giant data centers may be in > our future so perhaps that's what happened at Tabby's star and the > other ones that blink. > > Good reason to keep you cryonics contract active if you want to know > how this story turns out. > > Keith > _______________________________________________ The main problem with discussing the Fermi paradox is the old "known unknowns and unknown unknowns" quote. :) This paper has been much discussed on the internet (as might be expected). A quick search found - and the Robin Hanson post - which suggests that if life is extremely rare, we should be extremely surprised that it originated on earth. On earth, research suggests that life began almost as soon as the planet originated. This implies life could be common, but 'intelligent life' more rare. Anyway, if you are a cryonics supporter, (and can afford it), you probably have better reasons than 'There might be aliens' uncontactable light years distant away. :) BillK From efc at disroot.org Wed Aug 21 15:05:12 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2024 17:05:12 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] ETs/Aliens In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ef64de3-c1ed-9daf-d372-8a866e1f981d@disroot.org> On Wed, 21 Aug 2024, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > https://arxiv.org ? abs ? 1806.02404 > > [1806.02404] Dissolving the Fermi Paradox - arXiv.org > > Anders Sandberg, Eric Drexler, Toby Ord. View a PDF of the paper > titled Dissolving the Fermi Paradox, by Anders Sandberg and 1 other > authors. The Fermi paradox is the conflict between an expectation of a > high {\em ex ante} probability of intelligent life elsewhere in the > universe and the apparently lifeless universe we in fact observe. > > Dissolving the Fermi Paradox > > ^^^^^ > > The above paper gives low odds of there being another technological > civilization in our galaxy. I found the paper reasonable and > accounting for what we see out there. More or less considered it a > closed issue. > > The paper came out about the same time that the odd behavior of > Tabby's Star was discovered. > > I was in the camp of it must be natural. However when they found a > number of other stars in a cluster around Tabby's Star, it seems to me > to be evidence of life spreading from star to star. > > Simple analysis of the shadow patterns leads to an object at 7.8 AU > and over 400 times the area of the Earth. This is not in the > habitable zone, but it does seem to be in the computational zone. > Could we be looking at the shadows of giant data centers holding > trillions of uploaded aliens? Off planet giant data centers may be in > our future so perhaps that's what happened at Tabby's star and the > other ones that blink. > > Good reason to keep you cryonics contract active if you want to know > how this story turns out. > > Keith > Well read people know that the solution is of course the crystal spheres. Only possible to break from within, impossible to break from the outside. From pharos at gmail.com Wed Aug 21 15:30:27 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2024 16:30:27 +0100 Subject: [ExI] ETs/Aliens In-Reply-To: <4ef64de3-c1ed-9daf-d372-8a866e1f981d@disroot.org> References: <4ef64de3-c1ed-9daf-d372-8a866e1f981d@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Aug 2024 at 16:07, efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > > Well read people know that the solution is of course the crystal spheres. > Only possible to break from within, impossible to break from the outside. > _______________________________________________ I am obviously not well-read enough! I had to look it up - BillK From efc at disroot.org Wed Aug 21 15:39:11 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2024 17:39:11 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] ETs/Aliens In-Reply-To: References: <4ef64de3-c1ed-9daf-d372-8a866e1f981d@disroot.org> Message-ID: <722b4ce9-a437-fbb1-912c-b5d71c7d93fe@disroot.org> On Wed, 21 Aug 2024, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > On Wed, 21 Aug 2024 at 16:07, efc--- via extropy-chat > wrote: >> >> Well read people know that the solution is of course the crystal spheres. >> Only possible to break from within, impossible to break from the outside. >> _______________________________________________ > > > I am obviously not well-read enough! > I had to look it up - > > > BillK Yep, that's the one. I liked it. Fun, creative take on the problem. Vernor Vinge has another take with his zones. From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Aug 21 16:21:43 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2024 09:21:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ETs/Aliens In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 21, 2024 at 2:48?AM BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > snip > The main problem with discussing the Fermi paradox is the old > "known unknowns and unknown unknowns" quote. :) We know there is one example, us. We also "know" that there is (or was) nothing out there that did not look natural--until Tabby's Star and the others in the cluster showed these dips in the light output that are larger than a planet. Now a 22% dip in light is not something that you would expect from a planetary civilization, but if a species left its planet and constructed an orbital Dyson patch, it is something you might expect. We are already thinking about putting data centers in space to supply the computation needed for AI training. Do the dips make sense in such a context? I think they do, but that is partly because of my background in designing radiators for thermal power satellites and my thoughts on speed-of-light problems. (You have to radiate all the incoming energy after using it for computation.) I can't expect the engineering details of low-temperature radiators to be widely understood or appreciated. > This paper has been much discussed on the internet (as might be expected). > A quick search found - > > and the Robin Hanson post - > > which suggests that if life is extremely rare, we should be extremely > surprised that it originated on earth. > > On earth, research suggests that life began almost as soon as the > planet originated. > This implies life could be common, but 'intelligent life' more rare. > > Anyway, if you are a cryonics supporter, (and can afford it), you > probably have better reasons than 'There might be aliens' > uncontactable light years distant away. :) The closest of the dipping stars is 511 LY. While that's a long way, it's not out of reach if you can control your clock rate. The question of whether are there ETs is a really interesting one. Keith Keith > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 21 17:10:38 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2024 10:10:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ETs/Aliens In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00a201daf3ed$0c2d8740$248895c0$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] ETs/Aliens https://arxiv.org ? abs ? 1806.02404 >>...[1806.02404] Dissolving the Fermi Paradox - arXiv.org ... ... Dissolving the Fermi Paradox ^^^^^ >...The above paper gives low odds of there being another technological civilization in our galaxy. I found the paper reasonable and accounting for what we see out there. More or less considered it a closed issue. >...The paper came out about the same time that the odd behavior of Tabby's Star was discovered. ... >...Good reason to keep you cryonics contract active if you want to know how this story turns out. Keith _______________________________________________ Kieth I too was once in the camp holding that the Tabby's star behavior was natural, but my calculations on MBrains and the cluster of dippers caused me to now think there is about a 60% chance Tabby's star dipping is caused by an artifact. Reasoning: during our previous discussions on MBrains, you dismissed the idea mostly because thought would be too slow: an MBrain using 10% of a star's energy might "think" 100 times slower than a single human because of signal latency. I might agree that a simulated brain would be very slow compared to a human, but... it isn't under the same limitations either. Suppose we use the speed of human thought as a standard by which to measure other simulated forms of thought. Anything far slower than human makes little sense, but keep in mind that we humans are limited to about 100 years of thinking at best. So if we can be simulated at a speed of 1% human equivalent but we have 10,000 years, that might be perceived in a way similar to how we would perceive a century. Our star has about 5 billion years left on its main sequence. So... is it such a show-stopper to be limited to 1% human equivalent speed? Another way to look at it: suppose we had a sim which could run a our speed, at one human equivalent. Would 5 billion years of that make sense? Well, we like to think so. But... perhaps not. Perhaps 50 million years of one human equivalent would be sufficient, and if so, an MBrain, with its latency limits would make perfect sense. There is a reason I press this argument. After all these years, I still have not found a convincing mathematical model or argument that the waste heat problem can be solved. There is a second reason I press this argument: from what I can tell, an optimal complete MBrain would appear to be intermittently gappy or dippy. Reason: those gaps (thru which we observe full light from the partially-eclipsed star) are intentional and necessary. They are the portals thru which waste heat is directed out into cold space. I do not think Robert Bradbury's uniform multiple spherical shell is plausible. With his design, the inner layer will overheat. With big gaps, the inner layer has a way to radiate its waste heat. Deetz available upon request (some of them are available (I am moving my son to his dorm room today.)) spike From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 21 17:14:43 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2024 10:14:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ETs/Aliens In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00a301daf3ed$9e3604f0$daa20ed0$@rainier66.com> ...>> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat ... > >>... Good reason to keep you cryonics contract active if you want to know > how this story turns out. > > Keith > _______________________________________________ >...Anyway, if you are a cryonics supporter, (and can afford it), you probably have better reasons than 'There might be aliens' uncontactable light years distant away. :) BillK _______________________________________________ That notion of hoping to see how it all turns out is compelling to me. Feynman spoke of the joy of finding things out. Oh this is a joy I know well, and a concept I can extend even further: the joy of knowing stuff. I would really really like to be, in a time when we know if Tabby's star dippiness is caused by an artifact. That would give me enormous satisfaction to know that answer. spike From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Aug 21 17:22:26 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2024 10:22:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] NASA doubts Dyson megastructures will ever be necessary In-Reply-To: <610b95513626e92aad2c65a20647acc0@ultimax.com> References: <610b95513626e92aad2c65a20647acc0@ultimax.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 18, 2024 at 9:20?PM Robert G. Kennedy III, PE via extropy-chat wrote: > > I think this is an extremely parochial point of view, even by human > standards. > > A simple math illustration: > A manual laborer adequately nourished in good physical condition can > generate about 75 watts of mechanical power over an 8-hour work shift. > For a typical desk jockey like myself, this figure is closer to 10 > watts. That may be too generous - most of my colleagues broke a sweat > and had to switch arms after only a minute of this when I made them lift > a liter bottle of water through 1 meter to illustrate 10 watts in a way > that they would remember. > The average member of the human race already consumes 300X this amount > of primary power 24/7. (20 TW divided by 8 billion.) The average > member of the developed world consumes an order of magnitude more than > that. (20 TW divided by a billion.) Thinking about this, 20 TW does not include the sunlight energy used to grow food. There are about 50 million square km used for food. The peak is close to a GW/km^2 and the average is perhaps 1/3 GW/km^2 making the solar energy input for growing food ~20,000 TW or 1000 times the accounted energy use. Hmmm. Keith > We put cold beer in cans of thin metal that was worth more than gold > less than two centuries ago. And then throw the cans away, mostly. We > have Netflix to stream pron, computer games to p*ss away p a large > nation-state's worth of brainpower, and at least half of us carry > supercomputers-cum-transceivers in our pockets which are principally > used to endlessly scroll useless s**t AFAICT. We light up our > skyscrapers in colors at night for urban art. You could think of a > zillion more examples, virtually any one of which would have been > absolutely magical/ incomprehensible to our Neolithic ancestors, only > ~10K years ago. Even Columbus would be gobsmacked by GPS, though he'd > probably appreciate its utility in short order. D'ya think Alexander > Graham Bell ever imagined his invention would by used for 1 (900) phone > sex? > > Right off the top of my head, I can think of worthwhile constructive > activities that would require six to twelve orders of magnitude more > power than what we use now: > - Fast Interstellar flight with machines. (Having won a NIAC Phase I > grant, my colleagues and I will be presenting our work on an > interstellar probe swarm to Proxima Centauri to NASA at the Pasadena > Hilton in September. I'll be turning 65 whilst there. Can't think of a > better way to celebrate a milestone birthday than not acting my age.) > - Terraforming Lite, using techniques you already know about. > - Terraforming Heavy using Shell Worlds, which I also helped pioneer. > - Slow Interstellar Heavy with Worldships or Fast with some other > small-ish craft with a live crew. > > That's just the actually useful stuff. For humility, I like one of the > background plot elements in one of David Brin's "Uplift" novels - that > the big intragalactic war was essentially a difference of opinion > between art critics. Vernor Vinge (may he RIP) touched on this too in > "A Fire Upon the Deep". > > We have absolutely no idea what aliens would find interesting, fun, or > compelling to do. We'd be like ants to them, and that's being generous. > > Hooey. > > K3 > > On 2024-08-18 16:15, extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org wrote: > > > Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2024 13:21:31 -0700 > > From: Keith Henson > > To: ExI chat list , > > extropolis at googlegroups.com > > Cc: BillK > > Subject: Re: [ExI] NASA doubts Dyson megastructures will ever be > > necessary > > On Sat, Aug 17, 2024 at 4:24?AM BillK via extropy-chat > > wrote: > >> > >> NASA Scientists on Why We Might Not Spot Solar Panel Technosignatures > >> William Steigerwald August 2, 2024. > >> > >> > >> > >> Quotes: > >> Now a recent paper published May 24 in the Astrophysical Journal > >> postulates that if advanced extraterrestrial civilizations exist, one > >> reason they might be hard to detect with telescopes from our vantage > >> point is because their energy requirements may be relatively modest. > >> If their culture, technology, and population size do not need vast > >> amounts of power, they would not be required to build enormous > >> stellar-energy harvesting structures that could be detected by current > >> or proposed telescopes. Such structures, based on our own Earthly > >> experience, might be solar panel arrays that cover a significant > >> portion of their planet?s surface or orbiting megastructures to > >> harness most of their parent star?s energy?both of which we might be > >> able to spot from our own solar system. > > > > Tabby's star and the 24 other blinking stars around it we can see with > > existing telescopes. > > > > The biggest dip corresponds to an object equal to over 400 times the > > area of the Earth. Even though it is way out from the star, it > > intercepts 1.4 million times the total energy humans use. > > > > snip > > > >> Hmmm. Yes, it does seem likely that advanced civs could have better > >> methods of power generation than building huge Dyson space structures. > >> And that makes the assumption that they would even require such > >> vast amounts of power utilisation. > > > > How big does a structure need to get to be considered a Dyson > > structure? > > > > Keith > > > > PS amusing, my great great grandmother was Mary Virginia Dyson. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From mbb386 at main.nc.us Wed Aug 21 17:44:29 2024 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2024 13:44:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Dorm room??? In-Reply-To: <00a201daf3ed$0c2d8740$248895c0$@rainier66.com> References: <00a201daf3ed$0c2d8740$248895c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <28e99747be47ef617791ac4f765e4d5a.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> On Wed, August 21, 2024 13:10, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > (I am moving my > son to his dorm room today.)) > OMGoodness, how can that be? All grown up and going to Uni already!! Best wishes to Isaac. :) Makes me wonder what Amara's Vija and Eugen's Lauren are doing now. Warm regards, MB From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Aug 21 19:08:00 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2024 12:08:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ETs/Aliens In-Reply-To: <00a201daf3ed$0c2d8740$248895c0$@rainier66.com> References: <00a201daf3ed$0c2d8740$248895c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 21, 2024 at 10:10?AM wrote: > snip > Kieth I too was once in the camp holding that the Tabby's star behavior was natural, but my calculations on MBrains and the cluster of dippers caused me to now think there is about a 60% chance Tabby's star dipping is caused by an artifact. Good to know I am not alone. > Reasoning: during our previous discussions on MBrains, you dismissed the idea mostly because thought would be too slow: an MBrain using 10% of a star's energy might "think" 100 times slower than a single human because of signal latency. It's worse than that. Human imputed cycle time is around 200 Hz or 1/200 sec. One AU brain would have a cycle time of 150 Mkm/.3 Mk/sec. Call it 100,000 times slower than a human. If you want to think fast, you have to do it in a small object where the speed of light does not eat your lunch. Of course the question is why do we think as fast as we do? In the stone age, thinking fast got you fed and not eaten. In our current age, thinking fast is mainly a way to gain social status. > I might agree that a simulated brain would be very slow compared to a human, but... it isn't under the same limitations either. > > Suppose we use the speed of human thought as a standard by which to measure other simulated forms of thought. Anything far slower than human makes little sense, but keep in mind that we humans are limited to about 100 years of thinking at best. So if we can be simulated at a speed of 1% human equivalent but we have 10,000 years, that might be perceived in a way similar to how we would perceive a century. Thinking slower than a human strikes me as a way to lose out to the competition. > Our star has about 5 billion years left on its main sequence. > > So... is it such a show-stopper to be limited to 1% human equivalent speed? > > Another way to look at it: suppose we had a sim which could run a our speed, at one human equivalent. Would 5 billion years of that make sense? Well, we like to think so. But... perhaps not. Perhaps 50 million years of one human equivalent would be sufficient, and if so, an MBrain, with its latency limits would make perfect sense. I just don't know. It may be that much less time than that just fills up a mind to where it can no longer function. > There is a reason I press this argument. After all these years, I still have not found a convincing mathematical model or argument that the waste heat problem can be solved. I think the thermal power satellite work I did solved the problem. You directionally radiate the waste heat solar N/S. Which explains the odd low temperature we see looking at Tabby's Star. > There is a second reason I press this argument: from what I can tell, an optimal complete MBrain would appear to be intermittently gappy or dippy. Reason: those gaps (thru which we observe full light from the partially-eclipsed star) are intentional and necessary. They are the portals thru which waste heat is directed out into cold space. I do not think Robert Bradbury's uniform multiple spherical shell is plausible. With his design, the inner layer will overheat. With big gaps, the inner layer has a way to radiate its waste heat. I think communicating minds require as small an object as possible given the need to get energy and radiate waste heat. The speed of light comm delay across an object such as seems to exist at Tabby's Star is close to a second. I think we could talk to them. > Deetz available upon request (some of them are available (I am moving my son to his dorm room today.)) Scary how fast things go. Keith > spike > > > > From giulio at gmail.com Thu Aug 22 06:15:57 2024 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2024 08:15:57 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Irrational mechanics SECOND DRAFT Message-ID: I shared the second draft of my new book with a group of early readers. Irrational mechanics SECOND DRAFT 08.22.24. DRAFT narrative sketch of a futurist science & a new religion. https://www.turingchurch.com/p/irrational-mechanics-second-draft From pharos at gmail.com Fri Aug 23 21:08:13 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2024 22:08:13 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Elon Musk wants to implant millions with Neuralink brain chips Message-ID: Elon Musk wants to implant millions of people with Neuralink brain chips Story by Anthony Cuthbertson 22 Aug 2024 Quote: ?If all goes well, there will be hundreds of people with Neuralinks within a few years, maybe tens of thousands within five years, millions within 10 years,? Mr Musk wrote on X in response to Neuralink?s blog post. The Prime study has focussed on people with quadriplegia, though Mr Musk claims the technology will one day allow humans to merge with artificial intelligence in order to augment brain and body performance. ------------------- Well. I hope they protect their heads from cyber attacks by then. Also, solar flares or EMP attacks could interfere with the implants. If everybody is relying on implants, could their destruction turn everybody into zombies? Even now, if all the smartphones were suddenly destroyed, many people would be pretty helpless. BillK From brent.allsop at gmail.com Fri Aug 23 22:05:55 2024 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2024 16:05:55 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Elon Musk wants to implant millions with Neuralink brain chips In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All this is moving towards the ability to backup and restore, which is the key. That even solves a bullet to the head, which is the real problem now. And that is why we need Mars, for an Earth backup. But of course Musk won't be able to do anything for color vision repair, till he discovers the true qualities of whatever the stuff is that makes up our subjective color visual knowledge. See: "Physicists don't yet understand color qualities " On Fri, Aug 23, 2024 at 3:11?PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Elon Musk wants to implant millions of people with Neuralink brain chips > Story by Anthony Cuthbertson 22 Aug 2024 > > < > https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/other/elon-musk-wants-to-implant-millions-of-pegooople-with-neuralink-brain-chips/ar-AA1peUxe > > > Quote: > ?If all goes well, there will be hundreds of people with Neuralinks > within a few years, maybe tens of thousands within five years, > millions within 10 years,? Mr Musk wrote on X in response to > Neuralink?s blog post. > > The Prime study has focussed on people with quadriplegia, though Mr > Musk claims the technology will one day allow humans to merge with > artificial intelligence in order to augment brain and body > performance. > ------------------- > > Well. I hope they protect their heads from cyber attacks by then. > Also, solar flares or EMP attacks could interfere with the implants. > If everybody is relying on implants, could their destruction turn > everybody into zombies? > Even now, if all the smartphones were suddenly destroyed, many people > would be pretty helpless. > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From efc at disroot.org Sat Aug 24 20:16:06 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2024 22:16:06 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] Elon Musk wants to implant millions with Neuralink brain chips In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1f220159-9e39-7752-f5c1-19f11aca963e@disroot.org> On Fri, 23 Aug 2024, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > Elon Musk wants to implant millions of people with Neuralink brain chips > Story by Anthony Cuthbertson 22 Aug 2024 > > > Quote: > ?If all goes well, there will be hundreds of people with Neuralinks > within a few years, maybe tens of thousands within five years, > millions within 10 years,? Mr Musk wrote on X in response to > Neuralink?s blog post. > > The Prime study has focussed on people with quadriplegia, though Mr > Musk claims the technology will one day allow humans to merge with > artificial intelligence in order to augment brain and body > performance. > ------------------- > > Well. I hope they protect their heads from cyber attacks by then. > Also, solar flares or EMP attacks could interfere with the implants. > If everybody is relying on implants, could their destruction turn > everybody into zombies? > Even now, if all the smartphones were suddenly destroyed, many people > would be pretty helpless. Isn't this old news? Haven't people tampered with breaks in teslas and aren't people with pacemakers susceptible to electronic interference? Best regards, Daniel > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From atymes at gmail.com Sat Aug 24 21:04:58 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2024 17:04:58 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Elon Musk wants to implant millions with Neuralink brain chips In-Reply-To: <1f220159-9e39-7752-f5c1-19f11aca963e@disroot.org> References: <1f220159-9e39-7752-f5c1-19f11aca963e@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 24, 2024 at 4:17?PM efc--- via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, 23 Aug 2024, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > > Well. I hope they protect their heads from cyber attacks by then. > > Also, solar flares or EMP attacks could interfere with the implants. > > If everybody is relying on implants, could their destruction turn > > everybody into zombies? > > Even now, if all the smartphones were suddenly destroyed, many people > > would be pretty helpless. > > Isn't this old news? Haven't people tampered with breaks in teslas and > aren't people with pacemakers susceptible to electronic interference? > A strong enough EMP can have biological effects. Granted, it generally requires much stronger than for electronics to impart lasting damage. As for preventing cyber attacks, it would help to address the disinformation campaigns that are adversely affecting a great many human beings today. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Aug 24 21:21:09 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2024 22:21:09 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Elon Musk wants to implant millions with Neuralink brain chips In-Reply-To: <1f220159-9e39-7752-f5c1-19f11aca963e@disroot.org> References: <1f220159-9e39-7752-f5c1-19f11aca963e@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Aug 2024 at 21:18, efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > > Isn't this old news? Haven't people tampered with breaks in teslas and > aren't people with pacemakers susceptible to electronic interference? > > Best regards, Daniel > _______________________________________________ I think the difference is in the scale of the effect. People with pacemakers are told to avoid magnetic fields. Not many people hack Teslas. The comparison is with the future when brain implants for virtually everyone as they merge with AI will make future populations dependent on the devices. When a device becomes necessary for a complete population, security becomes very necessary. BillK From efc at disroot.org Sat Aug 24 22:02:10 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2024 00:02:10 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ExI] Elon Musk wants to implant millions with Neuralink brain chips In-Reply-To: References: <1f220159-9e39-7752-f5c1-19f11aca963e@disroot.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Aug 2024, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > On Sat, 24 Aug 2024 at 21:18, efc--- via extropy-chat > wrote: >> >> Isn't this old news? Haven't people tampered with breaks in teslas and >> aren't people with pacemakers susceptible to electronic interference? >> >> Best regards, Daniel >> _______________________________________________ > > > I think the difference is in the scale of the effect. > People with pacemakers are told to avoid magnetic fields. > Not many people hack Teslas. > > The comparison is with the future when brain implants for virtually > everyone as they merge with AI will make future populations dependent > on the devices. When a device becomes necessary for a > complete population, security becomes very necessary. What you just said reminds me of smart phones and the way peoples entire lives are inside their phones. I find it scary. Also, when keeping in mind the security of phones and apps on the phones, I find it even scarier that people add all their holiest of holies to their phones. On the other hand, the world is passing me by, since I don't own a smartphone, so perhaps all is well after all. ;) On a personal note, it's pretty common for criminals to cheat old people out of their money in sweden (where my father lives) by exploiting the fact that all their need is to persuade them to approve a transaction with their smart phones. Since my father is in my camp, he does not have an electronic ID, which makes him immune to these kind of attacks. In fact once or twice when they tried they just hang up. And the beauty is that it does not affect his life negatively, while, at the same time, greatly increases his security compared with his peers. =) > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From ExiMod at protonmail.com Sun Aug 25 22:37:42 2024 From: ExiMod at protonmail.com (ExiMod) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2024 22:37:42 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Exi-chat Server Maintenance Tuesday 27 Aug 2024 Message-ID: Hi Everybody John Klos has informed me that AT&T have scheduled maintenance for Tuesday, 27-Aug-2024 during the period between noon and 4pm Pacific time. This is to replace some cabling and equipment that connects the Internet to our main Exi server. The interruption could be up to an hour within that period. A backup server will accept Exi-chat posts, so messages will not be lost. Don't worry if you see unusual mail delivery warning messages on Tuesday, as normal service should shortly be resumed. Regards, ExiMod -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com Sun Aug 25 23:02:21 2024 From: ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com (ilsa) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2024 16:02:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi-chat Server Maintenance Tuesday 27 Aug 2024 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Gratitude On Sun, Aug 25, 2024, 3:39?PM ExiMod via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Hi Everybody > > John Klos has informed me that AT&T have scheduled maintenance for > Tuesday, 27-Aug-2024 during the period between noon and 4pm Pacific time. > > This is to replace some cabling and equipment that connects the Internet > to our main Exi server. > The interruption could be up to an hour within that period. > A backup server will accept Exi-chat posts, so messages will not be lost. > Don't worry if you see unusual mail delivery warning messages on Tuesday, > as normal service should shortly be resumed. > > Regards, ExiMod > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john at ziaspace.com Wed Aug 28 03:40:48 2024 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2024 03:40:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] List test Message-ID: <5fc0394a-45fa-f09c-f0c3-00ea5834cf15@daisy.zia.io> Hi, all, This is just a test to confirm that the list is working. Please let me know if you experience any problems. Thanks, John From ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com Wed Aug 28 04:06:22 2024 From: ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com (ilsa) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2024 21:06:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] List test In-Reply-To: <5fc0394a-45fa-f09c-f0c3-00ea5834cf15@daisy.zia.io> References: <5fc0394a-45fa-f09c-f0c3-00ea5834cf15@daisy.zia.io> Message-ID: Thank you it's working, smile, ilsa bartlett On Tue, Aug 27, 2024, 8:41?PM John Klos via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Hi, all, > > This is just a test to confirm that the list is working. Please let me > know if you experience any problems. > > Thanks, > John > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Aug 28 21:04:42 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2024 22:04:42 +0100 Subject: [ExI] When Reality Came Undone Message-ID: Interesting article about the history and meaning of quantum mechanics. BillK When Reality Came Undone 100 years ago, a circle of physicists shook the foundation of science. It?s still trembling. By Philip Ball August 28, 2024 Quote: Reality, previously a world in which well-defined particles interacted through precise laws, so that in principle the future could be predicted from a complete knowledge of the present, seems to dissolve into a haze of possibilities, within which there was no longer any objective viewpoint for an observer to stand. The position that denies any pre-existing reality, independent of our knowledge of it, is called anti-realism. Was this then really what the Copenhagen interpretation amounted to? Some think so, but it?s not obvious. Regarding quantum mechanics as a theory about the probabilities of measurement outcomes is not the same as saying that there is nothing before a measurement is made. It is simply to recognize the limitations of what the theory permits us to say about that. --------------- From pharos at gmail.com Thu Aug 29 19:52:46 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 20:52:46 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Could You (Will You) Marry a Robot? Message-ID: Could You Marry a Robot? Exploring the Future of Love and AI Daniel Martinez August 28, 2024 Quotes: In a world where technology increasingly intersects with human life, the idea of forming romantic relationships with robots is becoming more plausible. Advances in AI and robotics are creating machines capable of understanding and responding to human emotions, raising questions about the future of companionship and marriage. As robots evolve to potentially become life partners, this possibility challenges societal norms, ethical considerations, and our understanding of love. ------ As we engineer robots with the capacity to understand and reciprocate human emotions, we're not just creating machines; we're birthing a new form of companionship. Imagine a future where your robot partner doesn't just assist with tasks but truly understands you, comforts you, and anticipates your emotional needs?transforming the essence of partnership. ---------------------- The artificial humans will soon be here. Expensive at first, but mass consumerism versions will follow, as robots make more robots. Society will face big changes. BillK From ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com Thu Aug 29 20:35:27 2024 From: ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com (ilsa) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 13:35:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Could You (Will You) Marry a Robot? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No On Thu, Aug 29, 2024, 12:54?PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Could You Marry a Robot? > Exploring the Future of Love and AI > > Daniel Martinez August 28, 2024 > > > Quotes: > In a world where technology increasingly intersects with human life, > the idea of forming romantic relationships with robots is becoming > more plausible. Advances in AI and robotics are creating machines > capable of understanding and responding to human emotions, raising > questions about the future of companionship and marriage. As robots > evolve to potentially become life partners, this possibility > challenges societal norms, ethical considerations, and our > understanding of love. > ------ > As we engineer robots with the capacity to understand and reciprocate > human emotions, we're not just creating machines; we're birthing a new > form of companionship. Imagine a future where your robot partner > doesn't just assist with tasks but truly understands you, comforts > you, and anticipates your emotional needs?transforming the essence of > partnership. > ---------------------- > > The artificial humans will soon be here. Expensive at first, but mass > consumerism versions will follow, as robots make more robots. > Society will face big changes. > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Thu Aug 29 20:56:48 2024 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 14:56:48 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Could You (Will You) Marry a Robot? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Marriage is definitionally a legal arrangement between two rights-bearing atomic political units within a local or national government, primarily providing tax sheltering. Certain other legal protections and legal privileges are attached as well. Until and unless a robot is an atomic political unit, you can't marry one. On Thu, Aug 29, 2024 at 2:37?PM ilsa via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > No > > On Thu, Aug 29, 2024, 12:54?PM BillK via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Could You Marry a Robot? >> Exploring the Future of Love and AI >> >> Daniel Martinez August 28, 2024 >> >> >> Quotes: >> In a world where technology increasingly intersects with human life, >> the idea of forming romantic relationships with robots is becoming >> more plausible. Advances in AI and robotics are creating machines >> capable of understanding and responding to human emotions, raising >> questions about the future of companionship and marriage. As robots >> evolve to potentially become life partners, this possibility >> challenges societal norms, ethical considerations, and our >> understanding of love. >> ------ >> As we engineer robots with the capacity to understand and reciprocate >> human emotions, we're not just creating machines; we're birthing a new >> form of companionship. Imagine a future where your robot partner >> doesn't just assist with tasks but truly understands you, comforts >> you, and anticipates your emotional needs?transforming the essence of >> partnership. >> ---------------------- >> >> The artificial humans will soon be here. Expensive at first, but mass >> consumerism versions will follow, as robots make more robots. >> Society will face big changes. >> >> BillK >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Thu Aug 29 21:00:29 2024 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 15:00:29 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Could You (Will You) Marry a Robot? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Can sufficiently advanced robots and computer programs provide companionship and/or erotic stimulus. sure. Mentally ill people can find those in all sorts of places. But marriage? If marriage ever had anything to do with romantic commitment, let alone sex, let alone childrearing, the last 50 years of activist jurisprudence have thoroughly severed that attachment. On Thu, Aug 29, 2024 at 2:56?PM Darin Sunley wrote: > Marriage is definitionally a legal arrangement between two rights-bearing > atomic political units within a local or national government, primarily > providing tax sheltering. Certain other legal protections and legal > privileges are attached as well. > > Until and unless a robot is an atomic political unit, you can't marry one. > > On Thu, Aug 29, 2024 at 2:37?PM ilsa via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> No >> >> On Thu, Aug 29, 2024, 12:54?PM BillK via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Could You Marry a Robot? >>> Exploring the Future of Love and AI >>> >>> Daniel Martinez August 28, 2024 >>> >>> >>> Quotes: >>> In a world where technology increasingly intersects with human life, >>> the idea of forming romantic relationships with robots is becoming >>> more plausible. Advances in AI and robotics are creating machines >>> capable of understanding and responding to human emotions, raising >>> questions about the future of companionship and marriage. As robots >>> evolve to potentially become life partners, this possibility >>> challenges societal norms, ethical considerations, and our >>> understanding of love. >>> ------ >>> As we engineer robots with the capacity to understand and reciprocate >>> human emotions, we're not just creating machines; we're birthing a new >>> form of companionship. Imagine a future where your robot partner >>> doesn't just assist with tasks but truly understands you, comforts >>> you, and anticipates your emotional needs?transforming the essence of >>> partnership. >>> ---------------------- >>> >>> The artificial humans will soon be here. Expensive at first, but mass >>> consumerism versions will follow, as robots make more robots. >>> Society will face big changes. >>> >>> BillK >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Aug 29 21:31:34 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 14:31:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Could You (Will You) Marry a Robot? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Two of Charles Stross's novels are about a world where humans went extinct and the only inhabitants left are lonely sex bots. Keith On Thu, Aug 29, 2024 at 12:54?PM BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > > Could You Marry a Robot? > Exploring the Future of Love and AI > > Daniel Martinez August 28, 2024 > > > Quotes: > In a world where technology increasingly intersects with human life, > the idea of forming romantic relationships with robots is becoming > more plausible. Advances in AI and robotics are creating machines > capable of understanding and responding to human emotions, raising > questions about the future of companionship and marriage. As robots > evolve to potentially become life partners, this possibility > challenges societal norms, ethical considerations, and our > understanding of love. > ------ > As we engineer robots with the capacity to understand and reciprocate > human emotions, we're not just creating machines; we're birthing a new > form of companionship. Imagine a future where your robot partner > doesn't just assist with tasks but truly understands you, comforts > you, and anticipates your emotional needs?transforming the essence of > partnership. > ---------------------- > > The artificial humans will soon be here. Expensive at first, but mass > consumerism versions will follow, as robots make more robots. > Society will face big changes. > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From pharos at gmail.com Thu Aug 29 21:34:22 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 22:34:22 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Could You (Will You) Marry a Robot? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 at 22:02, Darin Sunley via extropy-chat wrote: > > Can sufficiently advanced robots and computer programs provide companionship and/or erotic stimulus. sure. Mentally ill people can find those in all sorts of places. > > But marriage? If marriage ever had anything to do with romantic commitment, let alone sex, let alone childrearing, the last 50 years of activist jurisprudence have thoroughly severed that attachment. > _______________________________________________ Well, I guess even the advanced AI robots that the article is discussing would not be able to produce children. Although, this might not be a problem. The birth rate throughout the Western world is already collapsing, as younger people decide either that they don't want children, or they can't afford the costs of rearing them. If the AI robots have not achieved legal personhood, then legal marriage, inheritance, etc, would not apply. Then we would have to change the question. Would you live with an AI robot as "friends with benefits" for companionship? BillK From dsunley at gmail.com Fri Aug 30 03:49:39 2024 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 21:49:39 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Could You (Will You) Marry a Robot? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't think I would personally, but the history of the development of free pornography distribution on the internet tells me that a /lot/ of people would. "Beavers will instinctively build a dam anywhere they hear the sound of running water. Even if they're inside a normal house and the sound is a recording. Isn't that wild?" "You should see what I do when the pixels look like an unclothed member of the opposite sex signalling sexual availability." On Thu, Aug 29, 2024 at 3:36?PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 at 22:02, Darin Sunley via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > Can sufficiently advanced robots and computer programs provide > companionship and/or erotic stimulus. sure. Mentally ill people can find > those in all sorts of places. > > > > But marriage? If marriage ever had anything to do with romantic > commitment, let alone sex, let alone childrearing, the last 50 years of > activist jurisprudence have thoroughly severed that attachment. > > _______________________________________________ > > > Well, I guess even the advanced AI robots that the article is > discussing would not be able to produce children. > Although, this might not be a problem. The birth rate throughout the > Western world is already collapsing, as younger people decide either > that they don't want children, or they can't afford the costs of > rearing them. > If the AI robots have not achieved legal personhood, then legal > marriage, inheritance, etc, would not apply. > Then we would have to change the question. > Would you live with an AI robot as "friends with benefits" for > companionship? > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Aug 30 05:06:50 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 01:06:50 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Could You (Will You) Marry a Robot? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Could You Marry a Robot? > No, as that is an aspect of the law and the law where I am does not recognize such marriages (for good reason, as AIs have a long way to go before being ready to enter into such long term contracts), but apparently it has happened in other jurisdictions: https://www.google.com/search?q=marry+robot . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Fri Aug 30 09:17:23 2024 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 10:17:23 +0100 Subject: [ExI] ETs/Aliens In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41880936-a95b-4ed1-a8c2-6940f0b033a4@zaiboc.net> On 28/08/2024 22:05, spike wrote: > suppose we had a sim which could run a our speed, at one human > equivalent. Would 5 billion years of that make sense? Well, we like to > think so. But... perhaps not. Perhaps 50 million years of one human > equivalent would be sufficient, and if so, an MBrain, with its latency > limits would make perfect sense. Sufficient for what, spike? We can't assume that aliens would have the same psychology as humans ("The thing about aliens is, they're alien"), and we can't assume that uploaded humans would remain the same, mentally, as biological humans. In fact I think it would be extremely surprising if they did. So what might be 'sufficient' for a biological human (or alien) almost certainly wouldn't remain the same for an upload. To me, at least, the whole point of uploading is to break free of the constraints of biological life, both physical and mental. For an upload that managed to maintain the same psychology as it's original biological form, I wouldn't be surprised if a few thousand years would be 'sufficient', and a few million might be unbearable. But I think it's extremely unlikely that an upload would remain the same, mentally. I don't think we can really even guess what 'sufficient' would mean to an upload, alien or human, in terms of subjective lifespan. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Aug 31 10:33:06 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2024 11:33:06 +0100 Subject: [ExI] ETs/Aliens In-Reply-To: <41880936-a95b-4ed1-a8c2-6940f0b033a4@zaiboc.net> References: <41880936-a95b-4ed1-a8c2-6940f0b033a4@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Aug 2024 at 10:19, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > We can't assume that aliens would have the same psychology as humans ("The thing about aliens is, they're alien"), and we can't assume that uploaded humans would remain the same, mentally, as biological humans. In fact I think it would be extremely surprising if they did. So what might be 'sufficient' for a biological human (or alien) almost certainly wouldn't remain the same for an upload. > > To me, at least, the whole point of uploading is to break free of the constraints of biological life, both physical and mental. For an upload that managed to maintain the same psychology as it's original biological form, I wouldn't be surprised if a few thousand years would be 'sufficient', and a few million might be unbearable. But I think it's extremely unlikely that an upload would remain the same, mentally. > > I don't think we can really even guess what 'sufficient' would mean to an upload, alien or human, in terms of subjective lifespan. > > Ben > _______________________________________________ Yes, aliens are alien. :) But then there is convergent evolution to consider. Extraterrestrial life forms may share some similarities with Earth-based organisms due to adapting to similar environmental challenges. Unless they are trapped in, say, an ocean world under an obscuring atmosphere, they will have to deal with the same physical environment as humans. For them to be contactable by humans, they must be looking out into the same wider universe. I don't think biological aliens or humans will be travelling between stars or galaxies. The restrictions imposed by extreme time delays, resource limitations and biological ageing are too great. That applies whether the body is human, insect, or octopus in form. What will be able to travel between the stars will be uploads, (from humans or aliens) or AIs. Uploads from any species will inevitably become aliens compared to their origins that were limited to a physical body. Uploads will have faster processing speed, greater memory, parallel processing, etc. so that the physical world will be experienced as "frozen" to them. What uploads will decide to do with the infinity of time available to them is probably unimaginable to us. However, whatever they choose to do, it either doesn't involve reconstructing the natural universe (as we see no signs of non-natural events) or uploads just haven't happened yet (which I think is unlikely given the age of the universe). BillK From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 31 14:40:37 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2024 07:40:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] new most popular religion in the world Message-ID: <004201dafbb3$becc0390$3c640ab0$@rainier66.com> Autofill demonstrates the rise of a new religion: PDFism: Imagine how puzzled and possibly alarmed someone would be had they been disconnected for the past fifty years and had no idea what is pdf. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 16221 bytes Desc: not available URL: