[ExI] [Extropolis] Religion
efc at disroot.org
efc at disroot.org
Fri Aug 9 21:39:48 UTC 2024
On Fri, 9 Aug 2024, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote:
> Quick bone to pick on Conficianism...I used to think the same thing, but his commentaries on the I Ching had an extremely heavy and
> important influence on its current incarnation, and should not be discounted on the mysticism side.
> I wasn't aware of this until I went pretty deeply on the I Ching and the various flavors of it, including a Daoist one. As an
> aside, I have found the I Ching extremely valuable even as an atheist, and would recommend exploring it to anyone with even a passing
> curiosity about it.
How has it been valuable? I have read parts of it, but have not found it
valuable except perhaps as an aid for creative writing if I reaally
stretch the word "value".
> Philip K. Dick was also influenced heavily by it.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 1:12 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> Well, I think western philosophy is widely spiritual, it's just not an organized religion, though very many philosophers
> have been religious.
> Daoism had its prophet in Laozi. Confucianism to me is not mystic, it's mostly an oeconomic system with already-extant chinese
> nature religion attached.
>
> I think nature religions are not from prophets but from small mystical experiences that come from a totally different way of
> thinking. When you're completely immersed in nature, you think with nature. This can happen to anyone experiencing natural
> glory, but when it is constant, the mysticism piles up
>
> On Thu, Aug 8, 2024 at 4:50 AM efc--- via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, 7 Aug 2024, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote:
>
> > Mysticism is the basis of religion. All religion starts with a ‘prophet’ type who realizes some kind of deep
> truth about reality or
> > society. This truth is so compelling to people that they continue to listen and they spread the word. I can’t
> just say that a magic
> > unicorn controls the world by pissing on a magic globe and make a movement—maybe a small cult of idiots. But
> powerful religions are
> > based on powerful truths. As I mentioned, monotheism had incredible power based on the simple truth “everything
> looks different but
> > it’s actually all one thing”. Animism before that was based on the simple truth “different natural objects
> [gods] are different and
> > have consistent patterns/behavior”.
>
> Mysticism I think fits nicely with monotheism due to its "unifying"
> experience. I was thinking about mentioning it, but then I thought, what
> about if we go further back? As you say, spirits, animism etc. Do you
> still think those come from mystic experiences, or from accidents like "I
> pet this rock, and I caught 2 fish today, why is that?".
>
> I think it is very uncontroversial to say that "modern" religions tend to
> come from mysticism, but what about nature religions? Then you have
> of course the grey areas of Daoism and Confucianism, which to me (but I'm
> definitely not an expert on religion) seem to sit uncomfortably in the
> line between philosophy and religion (daoism). I could accept that
> Confucianism is leaning more towards philosophy, but I think they have
> some kind of ancestor worship, don't they?
>
> > On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 3:46 AM efc--- via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 6 Aug 2024, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote:
> >
> > > There are alot of additional directions I could go in as to why early, primitive religions exist in terms
> of explaining
> > and
> > > controlling your environment (or rather the appearance of control) but I think the crux of my answer is
> in my argument
> > above.
> >
> > I agree. My bet would be that the origin is safety/control and
> > explanation. Eventually it led to science, and hence the antagonism
> > between religion and science. Religion feels threatened.
> >
> > I'd also add that it's a nice tool to control society and
> > ensure a homogeneous culture and cooperation.
> >
> > But within the phenomenon of religion, you also have the mystics, which
> > I think started with the above, but found their way to an incredibly
> > strong internal experience, which kind of lessened the need for safety
> > and explanation for them, but they have always been a tiny minority so
> > perhaps not so relevant for the original question.
> >
> > > Memento mori.
> > >
> > > On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 7:58 PM Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > The interesting question is why do humans have religions at all? I
> > > make a case that it is a side effect of selection for war.
> > >
> > > Religion is a class of mutually exclusive memes. I.e., it is seldom
> > > that a given person has more than one of them, so you don't expect
> > > someone who identifies as a Catholic to also be a Methodist. This
> > > brings you to the interesting conclusion that communism is a religion
> > > since being one makes it unlikely to have any of the common religious
> > > memes.
> > >
> > > This classification does not help with the question of why humans have
> > > (or are infested) with such memes. From how common this is, religious
> > > memes (or something related) must have been important to survival in
> > > the Stone Age.
> > >
> > > Religious memes seem to be descended from xenophobic memes.
> > >
> > > Xenophobic memes are the first step in the path to war. I think
> > > genetic selection for war is the origin of susceptibility to religious
> > > memes.
> > >
> > >
> > > Keith
> > >
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group.
> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to
> > > extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > >
> >
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAPiwVB790bABKY%2BQYyAeQZQyJ4erjK3_B%2BVpdpaoycen3ZX5ZA%40mail.gmail.com.
> > >
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
>
More information about the extropy-chat
mailing list