[ExI] [Extropolis] Religion

[efc at disroot.org]

On Fri, 9 Aug 2024, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote:

> Quick bone to pick on Conficianism...I used to think the same thing, but his commentaries on the I Ching had an extremely heavy and
> important influence on its current incarnation, and should not be discounted on the mysticism side.
> I wasn't aware of this until I went pretty deeply on the I Ching and the various flavors of it, including a Daoist one.   As an
> aside, I have found the I Ching extremely valuable even as an atheist, and would recommend exploring it to anyone with even a passing
> curiosity about it.

How has it been valuable? I have read parts of it, but have not found it 
valuable except perhaps as an aid for creative writing if I reaally 
stretch the word "value".


> Philip K. Dick was also influenced heavily by it.
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 1:12 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>       Well, I think western philosophy is widely spiritual, it's just not an organized religion, though very many philosophers
>       have been religious.
> Daoism had its prophet in Laozi.  Confucianism to me is not mystic, it's mostly an oeconomic system with already-extant chinese
> nature religion attached.
> 
> I think nature religions are not from prophets but from small mystical experiences that come from a totally different way of
> thinking.  When you're completely immersed in nature, you think with nature.  This can happen to anyone experiencing natural
> glory, but when it is constant, the mysticism piles up 
> 
> On Thu, Aug 8, 2024 at 4:50 AM efc--- via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
>
>       On Wed, 7 Aug 2024, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote:
>
>       > Mysticism is the basis of religion.  All religion starts with a ‘prophet’ type who realizes some kind of deep
>       truth about reality or
>       > society.  This truth is so compelling to people that they continue to listen and they spread the word.  I can’t
>       just say that a magic
>       > unicorn controls the world by pissing on a magic globe and make a movement—maybe a small cult of idiots.  But
>       powerful religions are
>       > based on powerful truths.  As I mentioned, monotheism had incredible power based on the simple truth “everything
>       looks different but
>       > it’s actually all one thing”.  Animism before that was based on the simple truth “different natural objects
>       [gods] are different and
>       > have consistent patterns/behavior”.
>
>       Mysticism I think fits nicely with monotheism due to its "unifying"
>       experience. I was thinking about mentioning it, but then I thought, what
>       about if we go further back? As you say, spirits, animism etc. Do you
>       still think those come from mystic experiences, or from accidents like "I
>       pet this rock, and I caught 2 fish today, why is that?".
>
>       I think it is very uncontroversial to say that "modern" religions tend to
>       come from mysticism, but what about nature religions? Then you have
>       of course the grey areas of Daoism and Confucianism, which to me (but I'm
>       definitely not an expert on religion) seem to sit uncomfortably in the
>       line between philosophy and religion (daoism). I could accept that
>       Confucianism is leaning more towards philosophy, but I think they have
>       some kind of ancestor worship, don't they?
>
>       > On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 3:46 AM efc--- via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>       >
>       >
>       >       On Tue, 6 Aug 2024, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote:
>       >
>       >       > There are alot of additional directions I could go in as to why early, primitive religions exist in terms
>       of explaining
>       >       and
>       >       > controlling your environment (or rather the appearance of control) but I think the crux of my answer is
>       in my argument
>       >       above.
>       >
>       >       I agree. My bet would be that the origin is safety/control and
>       >       explanation. Eventually it led to science, and hence the antagonism
>       >       between religion and science. Religion feels threatened.
>       >
>       >       I'd also add that it's a nice tool to control society and
>       >       ensure a homogeneous culture and cooperation.
>       >
>       >       But within the phenomenon of religion, you also have the mystics, which
>       >       I think started with the above, but found their way to an incredibly
>       >       strong internal experience, which kind of lessened the need for safety
>       >       and explanation for them, but they have always been a tiny minority so
>       >       perhaps not so relevant for the original question.
>       >
>       >       > Memento mori.
>       >       >
>       >       > On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 7:58 PM Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>       >       >       The interesting question is why do humans have religions at all? I
>       >       >       make a case that it is a side effect of selection for war.
>       >       >
>       >       >       Religion is a class of mutually exclusive memes. I.e., it is seldom
>       >       >       that a given person has more than one of them, so you don't expect
>       >       >       someone who identifies as a Catholic to also be a Methodist. This
>       >       >       brings you to the interesting conclusion that communism is a religion
>       >       >       since being one makes it unlikely to have any of the common religious
>       >       >       memes.
>       >       >
>       >       >       This classification does not help with the question of why humans have
>       >       >       (or are infested) with such memes. From how common this is, religious
>       >       >       memes (or something related) must have been important to survival in
>       >       >       the Stone Age.
>       >       >
>       >       >       Religious memes seem to be descended from xenophobic memes.
>       >       >
>       >       >       Xenophobic memes are the first step in the path to war. I think
>       >       >       genetic selection for war is the origin of susceptibility to religious
>       >       >       memes.
>       >       >
>       >       >
>       >       >       Keith
>       >       >
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