[ExI] [Extropolis] Religion
efc at disroot.org
efc at disroot.org
Fri Aug 9 21:42:08 UTC 2024
On Fri, 9 Aug 2024, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 1:34 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> Quick bone to pick on Conficianism...I used to think the same thing, but his commentaries on the I Ching had an extremely heavy and important influence on its current incarnation, and should not be discounted on the mysticism side.
>
> I rate the I Ching in the same class as astrology.
>
> But the question is still, why do some memes do well in inecting human
> minds/brains.
This is the billion dollar question. Another question is... would you
really like it if _one_ person found the answer to that question? ;)
Jokes aside, from time to time I do some PR/marketing work, and it is
quite a fun challenge to try and come up with a spin or a bounce of a
current topic, to propel something you wrote into the national newspapers.
Actually... it's almost not enough to bounce of current events, the gold
standard is to actually anticipate the wave a bit. That makes it much
easier to get article placements.
> Keith
>
>> I wasn't aware of this until I went pretty deeply on the I Ching and the various flavors of it, including a Daoist one. As an aside, I have found the I Ching extremely valuable even as an atheist, and would recommend exploring it to anyone with even a passing curiosity about it.
>>
>> Philip K. Dick was also influenced heavily by it.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 1:12 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Well, I think western philosophy is widely spiritual, it's just not an organized religion, though very many philosophers have been religious.
>>>
>>> Daoism had its prophet in Laozi. Confucianism to me is not mystic, it's mostly an oeconomic system with already-extant chinese nature religion attached.
>>>
>>> I think nature religions are not from prophets but from small mystical experiences that come from a totally different way of thinking. When you're completely immersed in nature, you think with nature. This can happen to anyone experiencing natural glory, but when it is constant, the mysticism piles up
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 8, 2024 at 4:50 AM efc--- via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 7 Aug 2024, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Mysticism is the basis of religion. All religion starts with a ‘prophet’ type who realizes some kind of deep truth about reality or
>>>> > society. This truth is so compelling to people that they continue to listen and they spread the word. I can’t just say that a magic
>>>> > unicorn controls the world by pissing on a magic globe and make a movement—maybe a small cult of idiots. But powerful religions are
>>>> > based on powerful truths. As I mentioned, monotheism had incredible power based on the simple truth “everything looks different but
>>>> > it’s actually all one thing”. Animism before that was based on the simple truth “different natural objects [gods] are different and
>>>> > have consistent patterns/behavior”.
>>>>
>>>> Mysticism I think fits nicely with monotheism due to its "unifying"
>>>> experience. I was thinking about mentioning it, but then I thought, what
>>>> about if we go further back? As you say, spirits, animism etc. Do you
>>>> still think those come from mystic experiences, or from accidents like "I
>>>> pet this rock, and I caught 2 fish today, why is that?".
>>>>
>>>> I think it is very uncontroversial to say that "modern" religions tend to
>>>> come from mysticism, but what about nature religions? Then you have
>>>> of course the grey areas of Daoism and Confucianism, which to me (but I'm
>>>> definitely not an expert on religion) seem to sit uncomfortably in the
>>>> line between philosophy and religion (daoism). I could accept that
>>>> Confucianism is leaning more towards philosophy, but I think they have
>>>> some kind of ancestor worship, don't they?
>>>>
>>>> > On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 3:46 AM efc--- via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Tue, 6 Aug 2024, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > > There are alot of additional directions I could go in as to why early, primitive religions exist in terms of explaining
>>>> > and
>>>> > > controlling your environment (or rather the appearance of control) but I think the crux of my answer is in my argument
>>>> > above.
>>>> >
>>>> > I agree. My bet would be that the origin is safety/control and
>>>> > explanation. Eventually it led to science, and hence the antagonism
>>>> > between religion and science. Religion feels threatened.
>>>> >
>>>> > I'd also add that it's a nice tool to control society and
>>>> > ensure a homogeneous culture and cooperation.
>>>> >
>>>> > But within the phenomenon of religion, you also have the mystics, which
>>>> > I think started with the above, but found their way to an incredibly
>>>> > strong internal experience, which kind of lessened the need for safety
>>>> > and explanation for them, but they have always been a tiny minority so
>>>> > perhaps not so relevant for the original question.
>>>> >
>>>> > > Memento mori.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 7:58 PM Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> > > The interesting question is why do humans have religions at all? I
>>>> > > make a case that it is a side effect of selection for war.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Religion is a class of mutually exclusive memes. I.e., it is seldom
>>>> > > that a given person has more than one of them, so you don't expect
>>>> > > someone who identifies as a Catholic to also be a Methodist. This
>>>> > > brings you to the interesting conclusion that communism is a religion
>>>> > > since being one makes it unlikely to have any of the common religious
>>>> > > memes.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > This classification does not help with the question of why humans have
>>>> > > (or are infested) with such memes. From how common this is, religious
>>>> > > memes (or something related) must have been important to survival in
>>>> > > the Stone Age.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Religious memes seem to be descended from xenophobic memes.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Xenophobic memes are the first step in the path to war. I think
>>>> > > genetic selection for war is the origin of susceptibility to religious
>>>> > > memes.
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Keith
>>>> > >
>>>> > > --
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>>>> > >
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>>>> > >
>>>> > >
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