From avant at sollegro.com  Sun Dec  1 22:28:37 2024
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2024 14:28:37 -0800
Subject: [ExI] The internet bot problem
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTf-0Za=g+1AxKniK8b11zS2XpxhV6BcjLjd-kXdrX_Dg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhusF6SnCSGGxef8b36Z5qzeGR32f5oevvQ7_=7+Vow4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTf-0Za=g+1AxKniK8b11zS2XpxhV6BcjLjd-kXdrX_Dg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bff3302844ea9605337e1ffdc45a1a4f@sollegro.com>

On 2024-11-30 07:54, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote:
> Corporations, which are not people, can already get tax ID numbers.
> 
> Also, which "the" government would one have to have a relationship
> with?  Would, say, the Indian or Brazilian government fully trust the
> US government to authenticate their citizens, and to provide
> personhood credentials only to its actual human beings?  (Leaving
> aside the Russia/China/et al mess.)

Perhaps Identity Confirmation as a person could become like Credit 
History, a salable service to those that need it, that is run by 
companies similar to the credit reporting companies.


> And without what amounts to identification, how could personhood
> credentials not be trivially forged?  A non-shared password, or
> something like that, links to and thus identifies an individual.  If
> there's nothing linking the credential to a specific person, a
> computer (with or without AI) can simply copy the credentials and use
> them.

I have noticed a push by government and commercial websites towards 
biometric 2FA tied to the users' phone thumbprint unlock.

A more automated way of running identity-verification-as-a-service would 
be to run blockchain-type algorithms keyed to all available user 
biometrics, i.e. DNA SNPs or sequences, fingerprints, dental records, 
retinal patterns etc, on a network of identity servers that are 
regularly updated to keep up with user development, aging, and other 
changes to the users' physical identifiers. It could use a variety of 
possible consensus mechanisms so that any given biometric supplied by 
somebody claiming to be you would be matched against the blockchain and 
if you matched, it could issue the user a public and private key pair or 
an NFT that could be used to verify identity until the user's biometric 
profile was refreshed or updated, at which a new key pair or NFT could 
be issued to the user.

Stuart LaForge







> 
> On Sat, Nov 30, 2024 at 10:29?AM BillK via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
>> Can humans purge the bots without sacrificing our privacy?
>> "Personhood" credentials could cleanse the internet of bots ? but
>> are
>> the costs worth it?
>> By Ross Pomeroy     November 30, 2024
>> 
>> 
> <https://www.freethink.com/the-digital-frontier/personhood-credentials>
>> Quotes:
>> According to the 2024 Imperva Bad Bot Report, the proportion of
>> internet traffic generated by bots hit almost 50% this year, growing
>> 2% from the year prior. It?s hard to get a handle on the share of
>> essentially fake websites, social media accounts, comments, reviews,
>> and emails being churned out by bots, but it is surely vast.
>> 
>> Personhood credentials to the rescue?
>> ?To get a personhood credential, you are going to have to show up
>> in
>> person or have a relationship with the government, like a tax ID
>> number,? Tobin South, a graduate student in MIT?s Media Lab and
>> one of
>> the report?s authors, told MIT News.
>> While a PHC proves your humanity, it would not be identification ?
>> users would maintain anonymity.
>> But there are genuine risks and challenges.
>> -------------------
>> 
>> Indeed, proving you are human will become increasingly difficult.
>> Even video calls and chats can now be done by bots.
>> 
>> BillK
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

From avant at sollegro.com  Sun Dec  1 22:37:33 2024
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2024 14:37:33 -0800
Subject: [ExI] The internet bot problem
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhusF6SnCSGGxef8b36Z5qzeGR32f5oevvQ7_=7+Vow4w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhusF6SnCSGGxef8b36Z5qzeGR32f5oevvQ7_=7+Vow4w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ad5d47d0984a52e34091d93a3885ea95@sollegro.com>

On 2024-11-30 07:27, BillK via extropy-chat wrote:
> Can humans purge the bots without sacrificing our privacy?
> "Personhood" credentials could cleanse the internet of bots ? but are
> the costs worth it?
> By Ross Pomeroy     November 30, 2024
> 
> <https://www.freethink.com/the-digital-frontier/personhood-credentials>
> Quotes:
> According to the 2024 Imperva Bad Bot Report, the proportion of
> internet traffic generated by bots hit almost 50% this year, growing
> 2% from the year prior. It?s hard to get a handle on the share of
> essentially fake websites, social media accounts, comments, reviews,
> and emails being churned out by bots, but it is surely vast.
> 
> Personhood credentials to the rescue?
> ?To get a personhood credential, you are going to have to show up in
> person or have a relationship with the government, like a tax ID
> number,? Tobin South, a graduate student in MIT?s Media Lab and one of
> the report?s authors, told MIT News.
> While a PHC proves your humanity, it would not be identification ?
> users would maintain anonymity.
> But there are genuine risks and challenges.
> -------------------
> 
> Indeed, proving you are human will become increasingly difficult.
> Even video calls and chats can now be done by bots.

The Dead Internet Theory was considered a conspiracy theory back when it 
was first discussed in 2021.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Internet_theory

Is it still just a conspiracy theory?

Stuart LaForge


From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Dec  1 23:49:38 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2024 18:49:38 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The internet bot problem
In-Reply-To: <ad5d47d0984a52e34091d93a3885ea95@sollegro.com>
References: <CAL_armhusF6SnCSGGxef8b36Z5qzeGR32f5oevvQ7_=7+Vow4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <ad5d47d0984a52e34091d93a3885ea95@sollegro.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNT=vrce_0NRdHqOvFj8or8BRR0k5T4CZjaXiT1JyGiPsA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 1, 2024 at 5:38?PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On 2024-11-30 07:27, BillK via extropy-chat wrote:
> > Can humans purge the bots without sacrificing our privacy?
> > "Personhood" credentials could cleanse the internet of bots ? but are
> > the costs worth it?
> > By Ross Pomeroy     November 30, 2024
> >
> > <https://www.freethink.com/the-digital-frontier/personhood-credentials>
> > Quotes:
> > According to the 2024 Imperva Bad Bot Report, the proportion of
> > internet traffic generated by bots hit almost 50% this year, growing
> > 2% from the year prior. It?s hard to get a handle on the share of
> > essentially fake websites, social media accounts, comments, reviews,
> > and emails being churned out by bots, but it is surely vast.
> >
> > Personhood credentials to the rescue?
> > ?To get a personhood credential, you are going to have to show up in
> > person or have a relationship with the government, like a tax ID
> > number,? Tobin South, a graduate student in MIT?s Media Lab and one of
> > the report?s authors, told MIT News.
> > While a PHC proves your humanity, it would not be identification ?
> > users would maintain anonymity.
> > But there are genuine risks and challenges.
> > -------------------
> >
> > Indeed, proving you are human will become increasingly difficult.
> > Even video calls and chats can now be done by bots.
>
> The Dead Internet Theory was considered a conspiracy theory back when it
> was first discussed in 2021.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Internet_theory
>
> Is it still just a conspiracy theory?
>

Insofar as it imagines there is a single coordinated agency doing it, yes.
There are multiple agencies, some in explicit opposition to one another,
most simply uncoordinated and many unaware of the others.
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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Dec  2 00:15:51 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2024 00:15:51 +0000
Subject: [ExI] The internet bot problem
In-Reply-To: <ad5d47d0984a52e34091d93a3885ea95@sollegro.com>
References: <CAL_armhusF6SnCSGGxef8b36Z5qzeGR32f5oevvQ7_=7+Vow4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <ad5d47d0984a52e34091d93a3885ea95@sollegro.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjJeQ7wdVBsdKB2xWGS89fgVhCojto-0ppV-b0vCR4kOQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 at 22:39, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> The Dead Internet Theory was considered a conspiracy theory back when it
> was first discussed in 2021.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Internet_theory
>
> Is it still just a conspiracy theory?
>
> Stuart LaForge
> _______________________________________________


The 2024 Bad Bot Report suggested that about 50% of the web traffic was bots.
So perhaps the internet is not totally dead.
But depending on your estimate of how much of the human 50% consists
of polarised people being offended and everybody shouting at each
other, then perhaps there is not much meaningful "Life" remaining on the
internet.

BillK

From efc at disroot.org  Mon Dec  2 15:15:58 2024
From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2024 16:15:58 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] The internet bot problem
In-Reply-To: <ad5d47d0984a52e34091d93a3885ea95@sollegro.com>
References: <CAL_armhusF6SnCSGGxef8b36Z5qzeGR32f5oevvQ7_=7+Vow4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <ad5d47d0984a52e34091d93a3885ea95@sollegro.com>
Message-ID: <7e8907b1-a773-39c3-ec2c-a72d086b2672@disroot.org>



On Sun, 1 Dec 2024, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote:

> On 2024-11-30 07:27, BillK via extropy-chat wrote:
>> Can humans purge the bots without sacrificing our privacy?
>> "Personhood" credentials could cleanse the internet of bots ? but are
>> the costs worth it?
>> By Ross Pomeroy     November 30, 2024
>> 
>> <https://www.freethink.com/the-digital-frontier/personhood-credentials>
>> Quotes:
>> According to the 2024 Imperva Bad Bot Report, the proportion of
>> internet traffic generated by bots hit almost 50% this year, growing
>> 2% from the year prior. It?s hard to get a handle on the share of
>> essentially fake websites, social media accounts, comments, reviews,
>> and emails being churned out by bots, but it is surely vast.
>> 
>> Personhood credentials to the rescue?
>> ?To get a personhood credential, you are going to have to show up in
>> person or have a relationship with the government, like a tax ID
>> number,? Tobin South, a graduate student in MIT?s Media Lab and one of
>> the report?s authors, told MIT News.
>> While a PHC proves your humanity, it would not be identification ?
>> users would maintain anonymity.
>> But there are genuine risks and challenges.
>> -------------------
>> 
>> Indeed, proving you are human will become increasingly difficult.
>> Even video calls and chats can now be done by bots.
>
> The Dead Internet Theory was considered a conspiracy theory back when it 
> was first discussed in 2021.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Internet_theory
>
> Is it still just a conspiracy theory?
>

I would say we're getting there. ;) It is fun to see in some discussion 
forums online, that chatgpt answers are starting to flourish. Someone 
calls it out, and the other guy says he was just checking his spelling 
through chatgpt.

I also see it when teaching. Many students, instead of doing labs or 
homework assignments, just paste it into chatgpt and send me the answer. 
The least creative (most stupid?) don't even bother changing the reply, so 
it has happend that I sit with 10 code snippers that are exactly the same 
down to every space and chosen name for the functions.

What I find even more interesting, is that the argument that I couldn't 
care less about their homework and what they learn, and that the only one 
they are cheating is their future self, since any employer quickly will 
see through prompt writers, when they actually need to employ programmers. 
This argument does not seem to work.

But maybe it could be that they do not want to become programmers, but 
they do in fact, want to become prompt writers.

To be continued... as the saying goes!

From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Dec  2 19:42:58 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2024 19:42:58 +0000
Subject: [ExI] 'Brain Rot' Named Oxford Word of the Year 2024
Message-ID: <CAL_armgK3xJa9UqGG6_RP1cu3032MATkoSq5162MU_mnH_tX5g@mail.gmail.com>

Losing your mind looking at memes? The dictionary has a word for that.
Yasmin Rufo    Published 1 December 2024

<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2n2r695nzo>
Quotes:
What is brain rot?

Brain rot is defined as the supposed deterioration of a person's
mental or intellectual state, especially viewed as the result of
overconsumption of material considered to be trivial or unchallenging,

The word initially gained traction on social media among Gen Z and Gen
Alpha communities, but it's now being used in the mainstream as a way
to describe low-quality, low-value content found on social media.

Prof Przybylski says "there's no evidence of brain rot actually being a thing".
"Instead it describes our dissatisfaction with the online world and
it's a word that we can use to bundle our anxieties that we have
around social media."
---------------------

BillK

From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Dec  3 21:01:06 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2024 21:01:06 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Teens Are Forming Intense Relationships With AI Entities
Message-ID: <CAL_armiggSto+Vw945_cJdTSacZv8noP9N=T1kNAztzKMYywXA@mail.gmail.com>

Parents think it?s homework help ? Here?s how teens are really using
AI chatbots.
>From digital therapy to virtual romance, new study exposes the hidden
world of teen-AI relationships.
Research led by Yang Wang and Yaman Yu, University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign
Dec 02, 2024

<https://studyfinds.org/teens-using-ai-chatbots/>
Quotes:
The study?s findings paint a picture of teenagers using AI in ways
their parents never imagined. While parents typically view AI as
primarily an academic tool functioning like a search engine, teens are
turning to AI chatbots for emotional support, relationship advice, and
social interaction. These AI companions are increasingly embedded in
popular platforms like Snapchat and Instagram, where teens incorporate
them into group chats and sometimes even develop romantic attachments
to them.
----------------

The future - when your best friend is an AI..........

BillK


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Dec  4 04:26:18 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2024 20:26:18 -0800
Subject: [ExI] AI fail
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB6mfh72C7adjqX-F0GxGtWUUeAesfYqaF_tnZ1Qtr6AUw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <129986841.2350069.1732918889514.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <129986841.2350069.1732918889514@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CADuJT2AQUgVq3PACtqrdOjcFwwQ=1ge-qeXmQqBXqhGg2V2PxA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB6Y0MDZGQsqQOaWg2rkVyTqwSYCe64MVDfuWFyOmq42Fw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB6mfh72C7adjqX-F0GxGtWUUeAesfYqaF_tnZ1Qtr6AUw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5igY2Y53X=UfRKXobDoWOCe6b_3r2fVA6oH1siBtyLVg@mail.gmail.com>

An interesting AI logic fail

On Mon, Dec 2, 2024 at 6:54?PM Doug Space <dougspace007 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Keith,
>
> Here's ChatGPT's calcs:
>
> To compare the energy in a SpaceX Starship launch to the energy released by the Hiroshima bomb, we can analyze the chemical energy in the rocket?s fuel versus the nuclear energy of the bomb.
>
>
> 1. Energy in a SpaceX Starship Launch
>
> Starship uses liquid methane (CH?) and liquid oxygen (LOX) as propellants. A fully fueled Starship (Super Heavy booster + Starship upper stage) carries approximately 4,800 metric tons (4.8 million kg) of propellant.
>
> ? The energy release from methane combustion is approximately 55 MJ/kg.
>
> ? Total energy from the fuel:
>
>
> 2. Energy in the Hiroshima Bomb
>
> The Hiroshima bomb, Little Boy, released an estimated 63 TJ of energy (equivalent to 15 kilotons of TNT).
>
>
> 3. Comparison
>
> ? Starship Launch Energy: ~264 TJ

ChatGPT obviously multiplied the whole 4800 tons of propellants x the
energy per kg for methane rather than just the methane
part.Interesting logic error and an example of why you need to check
the output of an AI.

I have used (because I saw it somewhere) a figure for LNG/LOX twice
that of TNT.  That's a reasonable number when you consider the
chemistry.  Digging around I found a NASA paper that mentioned the mix
being equal to C4.  C4 is 1.6 times as energetic as TNT.  That's ~7700
tons of TNT or about half the Hiroshima blast.

It isn't quite that bad though because a bulkhead failure and mixing
of both stages is unlikely.  The booster loads 700 tons of methane. Or
38.5 TJ.

Not as big as the Hiroshima bomb, but it is not something you want to
be close to if it detonated

> ? Hiroshima Bomb Energy: ~63 TJ
>
> A fully fueled Starship launch releases about 4.2 times more energy than the Hiroshima bomb. However, this energy is spread out over the duration of the rocket?s flight (several minutes), unlike the instantaneous release of energy in a nuclear explosion, which creates devastating shockwaves, heat, and radiation.
>
> Key Takeaways
>
> While Starship carries significantly more energy in its fuel than the Hiroshima bomb, the controlled combustion process and the purpose of the energy (to lift the rocket) make the comparison more about magnitude rather than effect. The bomb?s destructive energy is concentrated and instantaneous, while the rocket?s energy is spread over time for propulsion.
>
>


From giulio at gmail.com  Thu Dec  5 08:33:34 2024
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2024 09:33:34 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Terasem Colloquium on Saturday,
 December 14 at 10am ET via Zoom
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfx_fwDmsnDHhmZxXmXg=z+Gh+XjHWhZ3pdHrt6f3yKkw@mail.gmail.com>

AI and cyberconsciousness: big picture and spiritual implications.
Join us at the Terasem Colloquium on Saturday, December 14 at 10am ET
via Zoom.
https://www.turingchurch.com/p/ai-and-cyberconsciousness-big-picture

From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Dec  9 14:26:35 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2024 14:26:35 +0000
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?The_Surveillance_State_Is_Making_a_List=2C_and_Y?=
	=?utf-8?q?ou=E2=80=99re_On_It?=
Message-ID: <CAL_armgYm4B59GrX8CLu7A_rakMfaXi-Reb5K73=OK50tuK19Q@mail.gmail.com>

?He sees you when you?re sleeping
He knows when you?re awake
He knows when you?ve been bad or good
So be good for goodness? sake!?
??Santa Claus Is Coming to Town?

You?d better watch out?you?d better not pout?you?d better not cry??cos
I?m telling you why: this Christmas, it?s the Surveillance State
that?s making a list and checking it twice, and it won?t matter
whether you?ve been bad or good.

You?ll be on this list whether you like it or not.

<https://www.rutherford.org/publications_resources/john_whiteheads_commentary/surveillance_state_is_making_a_list_and_youre_on_it>
Quote:
Now the government wants us to believe that we have nothing to fear
from these mass spying programs as long as we?ve done nothing wrong.

Don?t believe it.
The government?s definition of a ?bad? guy is extraordinarily broad,
and it results in the warrantless surveillance of innocent,
law-abiding Americans on a staggering scale.
---------------------

This reminds me of the saying from Stalinist era Soviet Union
(attributions vary) -
"Give me the man and I will give you the case against him".

BillK


From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Dec  9 14:46:04 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2024 09:46:04 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?The_Surveillance_State_Is_Making_a_List=2C_and_Y?=
	=?utf-8?q?ou=E2=80=99re_On_It?=
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgYm4B59GrX8CLu7A_rakMfaXi-Reb5K73=OK50tuK19Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgYm4B59GrX8CLu7A_rakMfaXi-Reb5K73=OK50tuK19Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQ_8AJgKaQEv9O7RQX=mVaEgpv56_y0dvtsVmxtepbUDg@mail.gmail.com>

This article makes a classic error: just because it is possible to do this
to one individual at some cost, it assumes the government is doing this to
everyone.  This assumption ignores the massive cost to do this to literally
everyone in the United States of America, let alone the rest of the world.
Even the government sometimes does cost/benefit analyses and declines to
implement stuff that's massively costly for not enough benefit to it;
tracking everyone all of the time is one such thing.

On Mon, Dec 9, 2024 at 9:28?AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> ?He sees you when you?re sleeping
> He knows when you?re awake
> He knows when you?ve been bad or good
> So be good for goodness? sake!?
> ??Santa Claus Is Coming to Town?
>
> You?d better watch out?you?d better not pout?you?d better not cry??cos
> I?m telling you why: this Christmas, it?s the Surveillance State
> that?s making a list and checking it twice, and it won?t matter
> whether you?ve been bad or good.
>
> You?ll be on this list whether you like it or not.
>
> <
> https://www.rutherford.org/publications_resources/john_whiteheads_commentary/surveillance_state_is_making_a_list_and_youre_on_it
> >
> Quote:
> Now the government wants us to believe that we have nothing to fear
> from these mass spying programs as long as we?ve done nothing wrong.
>
> Don?t believe it.
> The government?s definition of a ?bad? guy is extraordinarily broad,
> and it results in the warrantless surveillance of innocent,
> law-abiding Americans on a staggering scale.
> ---------------------
>
> This reminds me of the saying from Stalinist era Soviet Union
> (attributions vary) -
> "Give me the man and I will give you the case against him".
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Dec  9 15:10:33 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2024 15:10:33 +0000
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?The_Surveillance_State_Is_Making_a_List=2C_and_Y?=
	=?utf-8?q?ou=E2=80=99re_On_It?=
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQ_8AJgKaQEv9O7RQX=mVaEgpv56_y0dvtsVmxtepbUDg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgYm4B59GrX8CLu7A_rakMfaXi-Reb5K73=OK50tuK19Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQ_8AJgKaQEv9O7RQX=mVaEgpv56_y0dvtsVmxtepbUDg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armidPwiZpnPke3ADsvo_nofjDxzmBehSaYOK9CKOUfWw+w@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 at 14:48, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> This article makes a classic error: just because it is possible to do this to one individual at some cost, it assumes the government is doing this to everyone.  This assumption ignores the massive cost to do this to literally everyone in the United States of America, let alone the rest of the world.  Even the government sometimes does cost/benefit analyses and declines to implement stuff that's massively costly for not enough benefit to it; tracking everyone all of the time is one such thing.
> _______________________________________________


Oh, I agree that the government is only actively tracking 'people of
interest' via three-letter agencies, police and other government
departments.
But the tracking is going on, done by many organisations, mostly commercial.
So when you become a 'person of interest', the search and data collection
activity starts up.
Like finding the 5000 smartphones near the Capitol on January 6.

Just don't become a 'person of interest' or the tracking databases and lawfare
can be used to destroy you.

BillK


From efc at disroot.org  Tue Dec 10 09:36:05 2024
From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 10:36:05 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] 
 =?iso8859-7?q?The_Surveillance_State_Is_Making_a_List=2C_a?=
 =?iso8859-7?q?nd_You=A2re_On_It?=
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQ_8AJgKaQEv9O7RQX=mVaEgpv56_y0dvtsVmxtepbUDg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgYm4B59GrX8CLu7A_rakMfaXi-Reb5K73=OK50tuK19Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQ_8AJgKaQEv9O7RQX=mVaEgpv56_y0dvtsVmxtepbUDg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ac9a71f9-bf24-2ceb-ef7d-160b541b411f@disroot.org>



On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote:

> This article makes a classic error: just because it is possible to do this to one individual at some cost, it assumes the government
> is doing this to everyone.? This assumption ignores the massive cost to do this to literally everyone in the United States of
> America, let alone the rest of the world.? Even the government sometimes does cost/benefit analyses and declines to implement stuff
> that's massively?costly for not enough?benefit to it; tracking everyone all of the time is one such thing.

Au contrare, with governments, we know that _if_ there is a chance that 
something will be abused, or used to gain more power, it will be done. 
Therefore the mere possibility is enough to argue that the capability 
should be shut down and destroyed.

When it comes to freedom, there can be no middle ground or compromise of 
principles, that road slowly, but surely, leads to the death of freedom 
and the start of authoritarianism.

The road down this path of course has already started, but I am an 
eternal, long term, optimist, so I'll continue the good fight. =)

Best regards,
Daniel


> On Mon, Dec 9, 2024 at 9:28?AM BillK via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>       ?He sees you when you?re sleeping
>       He knows when you?re awake
>       He knows when you?ve been bad or good
>       So be good for goodness? sake!?
>       ??Santa Claus Is Coming to Town?
>
>       You?d better watch out?you?d better not pout?you?d better not cry??cos
>       I?m telling you why: this Christmas, it?s the Surveillance State
>       that?s making a list and checking it twice, and it won?t matter
>       whether you?ve been bad or good.
>
>       You?ll be on this list whether you like it or not.
>
>       <https://www.rutherford.org/publications_resources/john_whiteheads_commentary/surveillance_state_is_making_a_list_and_youre_on_it>
>       Quote:
>       Now the government wants us to believe that we have nothing to fear
>       from these mass spying programs as long as we?ve done nothing wrong.
>
>       Don?t believe it.
>       The government?s definition of a ?bad? guy is extraordinarily broad,
>       and it results in the warrantless surveillance of innocent,
>       law-abiding Americans on a staggering scale.
>       ---------------------
>
>       This reminds me of the saying from Stalinist era Soviet Union
>       (attributions vary) -
>       "Give me the man and I will give you the case against him".
>
>       BillK
>
>       _______________________________________________
>       extropy-chat mailing list
>       extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>       http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 
> 
>

From efc at disroot.org  Tue Dec 10 09:38:57 2024
From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 10:38:57 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Pantheon TV-series?
Message-ID: <e099b8ed-673a-3749-e7d1-bae091de0d7c@disroot.org>

Dear extropians,

Did anyone here ever watch Pantheon?

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11680642/

I find it (so far) fairly well researched, and the tech-discussions don't 
give me any cringe feelings.

If you haven't seen it, and if you're not put off by animated shows, I'd 
recommend watching the first 2 episodes to see if you might enjoy it.

If anyone has recommendations about similarly themed shows/movies, I'd be 
very thankful.

Best regards,
Daniel


From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Dec 10 12:29:42 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 07:29:42 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?The_Surveillance_State_Is_Making_a_List=2C_and_Y?=
	=?utf-8?q?ou=E2=80=99re_On_It?=
In-Reply-To: <ac9a71f9-bf24-2ceb-ef7d-160b541b411f@disroot.org>
References: <CAL_armgYm4B59GrX8CLu7A_rakMfaXi-Reb5K73=OK50tuK19Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQ_8AJgKaQEv9O7RQX=mVaEgpv56_y0dvtsVmxtepbUDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <ac9a71f9-bf24-2ceb-ef7d-160b541b411f@disroot.org>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNT1VunRbLUH1pezqH5gGnDuY1rEnYmZvdQA8dHp3hos1Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 10, 2024, 4:37?AM efc--- via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote:
>
> > This article makes a classic error: just because it is possible to do
> this to one individual at some cost, it assumes the government
> > is doing this to everyone.  This assumption ignores the massive cost to
> do this to literally everyone in the United States of
> > America, let alone the rest of the world.  Even the government sometimes
> does cost/benefit analyses and declines to implement stuff
> > that's massively costly for not enough benefit to it; tracking everyone
> all of the time is one such thing.
>
> Au contrare, with governments, we know that _if_ there is a chance that
> something will be abused, or used to gain more power, it will be done.


Not in every case, regardless of the cost.

Therefore the mere possibility is enough to argue that the capability
> should be shut down and destroyed.
>

Necessity aside, how would you make sure it is destroyed, and not merely
classified so we no longer hear of it?  At least today, we know of and can
maybe counter it when necessary.
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From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Dec 10 13:28:10 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 08:28:10 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Pantheon TV-series?
In-Reply-To: <e099b8ed-673a-3749-e7d1-bae091de0d7c@disroot.org>
References: <e099b8ed-673a-3749-e7d1-bae091de0d7c@disroot.org>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRQ74WJ1hMCg_wft7CTdGC+-3=Z=awVxQf8zVn1UjQrPQ@mail.gmail.com>

I haven't seen it myself, but from
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/WesternAnimation/Pantheon it looks
like stuff I've seen before, and it got cut to an unsatisfying (important
plot threads not resolved) ending.

On Tue, Dec 10, 2024 at 4:40?AM efc--- via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Dear extropians,
>
> Did anyone here ever watch Pantheon?
>
> https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11680642/
>
> I find it (so far) fairly well researched, and the tech-discussions don't
> give me any cringe feelings.
>
> If you haven't seen it, and if you're not put off by animated shows, I'd
> recommend watching the first 2 episodes to see if you might enjoy it.
>
> If anyone has recommendations about similarly themed shows/movies, I'd be
> very thankful.
>
> Best regards,
> Daniel
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Dec 10 13:54:10 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 13:54:10 +0000
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?The_Surveillance_State_Is_Making_a_List=2C_and_Y?=
	=?utf-8?q?ou=E2=80=99re_On_It?=
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNT1VunRbLUH1pezqH5gGnDuY1rEnYmZvdQA8dHp3hos1Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgYm4B59GrX8CLu7A_rakMfaXi-Reb5K73=OK50tuK19Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQ_8AJgKaQEv9O7RQX=mVaEgpv56_y0dvtsVmxtepbUDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <ac9a71f9-bf24-2ceb-ef7d-160b541b411f@disroot.org>
 <CALAdGNT1VunRbLUH1pezqH5gGnDuY1rEnYmZvdQA8dHp3hos1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armh_gnVRemLRHGFg1HG5=jYfF7r6r5M2cK673pfNiAgceQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 at 12:32, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Necessity aside, how would you make sure it is destroyed, and not merely classified so we no longer hear of it?  At least today, we know of and can maybe counter it when necessary.
> _______________________________________________


I don't see how the surveillance economy can be destroyed without a
major revolution.
(Although revolutions appear to be becoming fashionable).
When surveillance has become essential for commerce, big business
won't stop doing it.
Governments find the out-sourcing of surveillance to corporate
organisations very convenient, as they create large databases at no
cost to the government.
And government has access to that data whenever required.
It is corporatocracy, a win-win for corporations and government.

BillK

From efc at disroot.org  Tue Dec 10 13:56:01 2024
From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 14:56:01 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] 
 =?iso8859-7?q?The_Surveillance_State_Is_Making_a_List=2C_a?=
 =?iso8859-7?q?nd_You=A2re_On_It?=
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNT1VunRbLUH1pezqH5gGnDuY1rEnYmZvdQA8dHp3hos1Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgYm4B59GrX8CLu7A_rakMfaXi-Reb5K73=OK50tuK19Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQ_8AJgKaQEv9O7RQX=mVaEgpv56_y0dvtsVmxtepbUDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <ac9a71f9-bf24-2ceb-ef7d-160b541b411f@disroot.org>
 <CALAdGNT1VunRbLUH1pezqH5gGnDuY1rEnYmZvdQA8dHp3hos1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a36ebc29-1a97-cf02-2eb1-a428e8714a94@disroot.org>



On Tue, 10 Dec 2024, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 10, 2024, 4:37?AM efc--- via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>       On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote:
>
>       > This article makes a classic error: just because it is possible to do this to one individual at some cost, it assumes
>       the government
>       > is doing this to everyone.? This assumption ignores the massive cost to do this to literally everyone in the United
>       States of
>       > America, let alone the rest of the world.? Even the government sometimes does cost/benefit analyses and declines to
>       implement stuff
>       > that's massively?costly for not enough?benefit to it; tracking everyone all of the time is one such thing.
>
>       Au contrare, with governments, we know that _if_ there is a chance that
>       something will be abused, or used to gain more power, it will be done.
> 
> 
> Not in every case, regardless of the cost.
>
>       Therefore the mere possibility is enough to argue that the capability
>       should be shut down and destroyed.
> 
> 
> Necessity aside, how would you make sure it is destroyed, and not merely classified so we no longer hear of it?? At least today, we
> know of and can maybe counter it when necessary.

Always a problem. Let's cross that bridge when we reach it. My current 
favourite method is digital self defense, and occasionally submitting some 
GDPR complaints and generally threaten companies with GDPR complaints. 
Obviously I'm just one guy, but I try to inspire others. Imagine if 
everyone did this, then it would at least somewhat change the tune of 
companies! =)

From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Dec 10 17:19:01 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 17:19:01 +0000
Subject: [ExI] New Technique for Spotting Dyson Rings Unveiled
Message-ID: <CAL_armgOhHMVRjc3-BDqToZbwxGAbqdVVjtU=RxQDiSYDP2CaA@mail.gmail.com>

New Technique for Spotting Dyson Rings Unveiled
Posted on December 10, 2024 by Mark Thompson

<https://www.universetoday.com/170070/new-technique-for-spotting-dyson-rings-unveiled/>
Quote:
Dyson spheres and rings have always held a special fascination for me.
The concept is simple, build a great big structure either as a sphere
or ring to harness the energy from a star. Dyson rings are far more
simple and feasible to construct and in a recent paper, a team of
scientists explore how we might detect them by analysing the light
from distant stars. The team suggests they might be able to detect
Dyson rings around pulsars using their new technique.
------------

BillK

From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Dec 11 01:43:55 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 17:43:55 -0800
Subject: [ExI] karp at reagan ndf
Message-ID: <012101db4b6e$23ecf860$6bc6e920$@rainier66.com>

 

 

I have been listening to excerpts from Palantir CEO Dr. Alex Karp's pitch at
the Reagan National Defense Forum.  It appears we are in exactly the
AI-related species death spiral Eliezer Yudkowsky has been foreseeing and
warning against for most of his life.  Every idea we thought of, everything
we tried, every post written, hoping to avert an AI arms race appears to
have failed.

 

spike 

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From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 05:29:55 2024
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 21:29:55 -0800
Subject: [ExI] karp at reagan ndf
In-Reply-To: <012101db4b6e$23ecf860$6bc6e920$@rainier66.com>
References: <012101db4b6e$23ecf860$6bc6e920$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdb+Zf7KHTpY6Vir1vD-p80Jy_9+ptKkjBxdxODTex=Fr3g@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 10, 2024, 5:45 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I have been listening to excerpts from Palantir CEO Dr. Alex Karp?s pitch
> at the Reagan National Defense Forum.  It appears we are in exactly the
> AI-related species death spiral Eliezer Yudkowsky has been foreseeing and
> warning against for most of his life.  Every idea we thought of, everything
> we tried, every post written, hoping to avert an AI arms race appears to
> have failed.
>
Is it really surprising though?

Maybe we've been thinking about it wrong.

Now that the race is on, we need to be sure of the course.  If 1st place is
the only place we are doomed and there's not much else to do but enjoy the
last moments of a wild ride.  Otherwise, we may yet find second place is
still quite an adventure.

Oh I know the dystopian horror porn has been discussed ad nauseam.  Could
we be just as imaginative with alternatives?

>
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From dsunley at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 05:47:50 2024
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 22:47:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] karp at reagan ndf
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdb+Zf7KHTpY6Vir1vD-p80Jy_9+ptKkjBxdxODTex=Fr3g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <012101db4b6e$23ecf860$6bc6e920$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdb+Zf7KHTpY6Vir1vD-p80Jy_9+ptKkjBxdxODTex=Fr3g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEptUkTQbLwWEOtCekKd6Eo+qGdLvZFJ2U62Ft9HVeqbbfH=XA@mail.gmail.com>

Have we considered the very realistic possibility that if it is at all
possible to build a shoggoth that consumes our entire future light cone,
that we have /already/ been consumed by a shoggoth someone else built?

Basic anthropic reasoning: we are in a lot more civilizations' future light
cones than are in ours.

On Tue, Dec 10, 2024 at 10:31?PM Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 10, 2024, 5:45 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> I have been listening to excerpts from Palantir CEO Dr. Alex Karp?s pitch
>> at the Reagan National Defense Forum.  It appears we are in exactly the
>> AI-related species death spiral Eliezer Yudkowsky has been foreseeing and
>> warning against for most of his life.  Every idea we thought of, everything
>> we tried, every post written, hoping to avert an AI arms race appears to
>> have failed.
>>
> Is it really surprising though?
>
> Maybe we've been thinking about it wrong.
>
> Now that the race is on, we need to be sure of the course.  If 1st place
> is the only place we are doomed and there's not much else to do but enjoy
> the last moments of a wild ride.  Otherwise, we may yet find second place
> is still quite an adventure.
>
> Oh I know the dystopian horror porn has been discussed ad nauseam.  Could
> we be just as imaginative with alternatives?
>
>> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Dec 11 06:01:19 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 22:01:19 -0800
Subject: [ExI] karp at reagan ndf
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdb+Zf7KHTpY6Vir1vD-p80Jy_9+ptKkjBxdxODTex=Fr3g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <012101db4b6e$23ecf860$6bc6e920$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdb+Zf7KHTpY6Vir1vD-p80Jy_9+ptKkjBxdxODTex=Fr3g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <017b01db4b92$196aa710$4c3ff530$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> 
Subject: Re: [ExI] karp at reagan ndf

 

On Tue, Dec 10, 2024, 5:45 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

>>?I have been listening to excerpts from Palantir CEO Dr. Alex Karp?s pitch at the Reagan National Defense Forum?

 

>?Oh I know the dystopian horror porn has been discussed ad nauseam.  Could we be just as imaginative with alternatives?

 

 

 

OK sure, Mike I will give it a try.

 

Let us imagine it in a sense analogous to the cold war.  When the nuclear arms race started, few visualized where it is now: we built up mind-boggling stockpiles of nuclear destructive potential, capable of not just destroying human civilization but bouncing the rubble half a dozen times.  All that was in place by about the mid 1960s, but over time even the least cynical among us recognized the profound absurdity of it all.

 

The stockpiles leveled off, then declined.  Now Russia and the USA don?t like each other, but it is possible to envision peace negotiations happening soon which will end the pointless stalemate of a war in Ukraine and reduce to normal levels the risk of global nuclear warfare.

 

However? I mentioned the least cynical among us.  That isn?t me.  I am not in that least cynical group, for I have a very firm belief that the human lust for power over other humans will crush the better angels of our nature.  If that power exists, someone will get to it first.  Then that person will become the modern Simon Bar Sinister, with a singular drive to rule the world.  Are we to theorize that the AI-armed person will be a benevolent dictator?  Well, we can hope.  If I am that person, I can assure you I will be benevolent as all hell.  Well, depending on your point of view of course.  I will damn sure make bullfighting illegal internationally.  Farm animals are not toys or sports opponents.  The guys making their living as matadors will not see me as beneficial.

 

The problem is that I don?t trust me.  Once the bullfighting is over with, I will have other reforms in mind.  As nice a feller as I am, I don?t trust me with unlimited power over humanity.  It would corrupt me, just as it would anyone else.  Power does that to humans.

 

Mike my apologies sir, I failed your test.  I tried to spin it positively and just couldn?t get there.  Let me sleep on it and try again tomorrow.

 

spike

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From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 07:06:44 2024
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 23:06:44 -0800
Subject: [ExI] karp at reagan ndf
In-Reply-To: <017b01db4b92$196aa710$4c3ff530$@rainier66.com>
References: <012101db4b6e$23ecf860$6bc6e920$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdb+Zf7KHTpY6Vir1vD-p80Jy_9+ptKkjBxdxODTex=Fr3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <017b01db4b92$196aa710$4c3ff530$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbJdEtbFAaKxg0wEivWS1nbDkPibXdmb0nQ+m8yr7STWHw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 10, 2024, 10:01 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

> Mike my apologies sir, I failed your test.  I tried to spin it positively
> and just couldn?t get there.  Let me sleep on it and try again tomorrow.
>
I appreciate the attempt.

Two thoughts:

1) it was not a test. Maybe it's linguistic pedantry that can be
dismissed... yes, i know what you meant.  But did you consider the
secondary and tertiary messages "between the lines"?  I've been
increasingly observant of how language (in this case,  word choice) is
laden with fragments of viral code - sometimes innocuous to the sender, but
activated upon arrival.  My intent was more open call for novel, non-dismal
outcomes. You considered it a test, then judged your submission a failure.
Hmm.  I suppose one might read my reply as criticism or nag. I hope you
grok my intent for observing another's perspective and gather some
insight.  Tl;dr i suspect there is key principle in this small example that
mirrors the larger spin charge as well, but i think I've not yet found the
words to sufficiently articulate it.  I guess i digress

2) perhaps skip over the troublesome near future.  Plotting a reasonable
path through all the known ways things can go wrong is tedious.  Even if
the path is exceedingly unlikely we can hand-wave those details to tell a
story about how life could be once it had already happened.  Maybe
post-singularity life is discontinuity for a reason inherent in
computational existence?  (I just had a flash of math: Tegmark level IV
mulriverse)  ok yeah, science fiction.. with sufficiently advanced science
indistinguishable from magic.. becoming fantasy?  I know, i know - but
isn't that the purview of imagination?
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From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 12:23:18 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2024 12:23:18 +0000
Subject: [ExI] karp at reagan ndf
In-Reply-To: <012101db4b6e$23ecf860$6bc6e920$@rainier66.com>
References: <012101db4b6e$23ecf860$6bc6e920$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgSC+hujmp8qE1BS6eGs63_LfQX6r1Z-6vxwZSjuZN=pw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 11 Dec 2024 at 01:46, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> I have been listening to excerpts from Palantir CEO Dr. Alex Karp?s pitch at the Reagan National Defense Forum.  It appears we are in exactly the AI-related species death spiral Eliezer Yudkowsky has been foreseeing and warning against for most of his life.  Every idea we thought of, everything we tried, every post written, hoping to avert an AI arms race appears to have failed.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


Karp (of course) is selling Palantir tech so that the vast US defence
spending will be given to Palantir.
<https://www.fastcompany.com/91237322/how-alex-karp-helped-turn-palantir-into-the-wests-ai-arms-dealer>

Karp says -
?Our goal as a company is to help the United States and its allies
avoid war,? says Karp. ?The only way to do that is to project such
overwhelming technological and strategic superiority that we scare the
daylights out of our adversaries.?

How does he expect every other nation in the world to respond?
Karp is saying that the US has to use AI to become the Empire that
dominates the world.
The AI race cannot be stopped; other nations must defend themselves.

The only hope for humanity is that the AI develops into an AGI that
has more sense than the humans trying to command it.

BillK


From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 14:26:56 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2024 09:26:56 -0500
Subject: [ExI] karp at reagan ndf
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdb+Zf7KHTpY6Vir1vD-p80Jy_9+ptKkjBxdxODTex=Fr3g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <012101db4b6e$23ecf860$6bc6e920$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdb+Zf7KHTpY6Vir1vD-p80Jy_9+ptKkjBxdxODTex=Fr3g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRQi-Hz+fBxiRC7ALcsu9Zu+hmP+CQdMmOF-JBMSvrRmg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 11, 2024 at 12:31?AM Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Now that the race is on, we need to be sure of the course.  If 1st place
> is the only place we are doomed and there's not much else to do but enjoy
> the last moments of a wild ride.  Otherwise, we may yet find second place
> is still quite an adventure.
>
> Oh I know the dystopian horror porn has been discussed ad nauseam.  Could
> we be just as imaginative with alternatives?
>

Sure.  These examples are from a US perspective, but small adjustments can
be made where needed to envision them in much of the rest of the world.

1) Essentially the null hypothesis: the Singularity either turns out to be
impossible for some reason, or is at least much, much, much harder to
achieve than many think, such that even with an AI arms race and even with
all the acceleration it will not be seen until after humanity has developed
means of dealing with AI's threat and potential.  No Singularity until at
least 2200, probably not until well after 2300; by the time it does happen,
if it happens, the majority of humanity at that time (born between now and
then, regardless of whether our lives are extended to see the day) has
grown up with and knows how to handle AI.  Things AI-wise don't get much
worse than they are today during that period.

2) Acknowledging that we are in an AI arms race allows us (the Western
world), at least, to race with defensive AI - similar to (though not
necessarily exactly) what some have termed "Friendly AI".  Maybe some
elements within China, Russia, and/or Iran engage in similar efforts.
These efforts get leaked or publicized - street-level, spreading despite
any governmental efforts (whether explicitly to suppress, or ostensibly to
aid but getting in the way, intentionally or not), such that any major
effort to oppress using AI keeps running into effective resistance and
counters specific to that avenue of oppression:

* AI-powered "killer bees" (microdrones targeting folks) run into cities
deploying the exact same tech programmed to intercept microdrones, which
local law enforcement uses to enforce bans on microdrones passed precisely
because of the widespread weaponization of microdrones.  These bans don't
care about the users: there is no exception for the federal government.
Any effort to force such an exception is seen as a declaration of war
against US citizens (because it is seen that the only substantial reason
for such an exception would be to allow extrajudicial killing of US
citizens), and either defeated as such or results in a swift and (mostly)
bloodless coup (see again: "seen as a declaration of war"; if the cities
have substantial defensive nets, the total mass of which only matters if
most cities in the US have reason to band together and revolt against the
federal government, then they together might well outgun the equivalent
federal forces, much as the founding fathers imagined - details of
technology aside - when passing the 2nd Amendment).

* Social media and similar AI biasing peoples' feeds runs into counter-AI
that's spread to let people "wake yourself up": "woke" taken as a label of
pride, the way that many terms some folks in charge tried to rail against
have gone.  Perhaps something like Ground News, only free to use and much
more widely adopted, the way ad blockers got more popular once YouTube
started trying to crack down on them.

* While AI lawyers are not a thing, AI assistance of lawyers becomes
increasingly common, especially among lawyers who otherwise have little
resources - defense lawyers and local prosecutors, exactly the people who
most often face off in court against federal attempts at oppression.
Would-be oppressors in the federal government increasingly see defeat after
defeat in court and fail - or perhaps willfully refuse - to recognize the
pattern, instead attempting to blatantly overturn or bypass the courts,
which gets them flagged as oppressors and taken down.  (For instance: say
that Trump, if this situation were to come to pass in the next few
years, issues an executive order declaring that any court order that
contradicts an executive order is null and void.  The courts, of course,
declare that unconstitutional.  Trump orders his cronies to press on
anyway, which is blatant contempt of court.  The courts have their own
bailiffs that can enforce their orders in this situation even if Trump
sidelines the entire Department of Justice.)

3) AI as mental therapy takes off, especially among the youth.  Having a
constant companion - acknowledged as AI, and thus an augment for but not
replacement of human connections - is seen as no mark of shame; some youths
even extend their identity to include a favored AI, kind of a "third brain
half".  This achieves a primitive version of the perceived AI-only
advantage of being constantly connected to the Internet and able to take
advantage of its knowledge base in real time, as the AIs alone lack
initiative or general ability to do stuff without soon breaking down, which
their human partners/other parts readily supply.  (The AIs are not coherent
enough to identify as individuals, so the AIs are incapable of
"reciprocating".  They just do what they do.)  Since only partnering with a
human achieves this level of execution, the only AIs that are able to
self-improve substantially are ones that essentially incorporate a human,
who gets improved as part of the process.  The Singularity, or something
like it, thus happens with upgraded human minds, so the resulting
superintelligences see themselves as human and care about humanity.

Will those do for a start?
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From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 15:10:00 2024
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2024 07:10:00 -0800
Subject: [ExI] karp at reagan ndf
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRQi-Hz+fBxiRC7ALcsu9Zu+hmP+CQdMmOF-JBMSvrRmg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <012101db4b6e$23ecf860$6bc6e920$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdb+Zf7KHTpY6Vir1vD-p80Jy_9+ptKkjBxdxODTex=Fr3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRQi-Hz+fBxiRC7ALcsu9Zu+hmP+CQdMmOF-JBMSvrRmg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbJAaih=7kuM09JOFzNqO2yHxxfJ7UxR7oyamjSK0tTOuA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 11, 2024, 6:29 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>  They just do what they do.)  Since only partnering with a human achieves
> this level of execution, the only AIs that are able to self-improve
> substantially are ones that essentially incorporate a human, who gets
> improved as part of the process.  The Singularity, or something like it,
> thus happens with upgraded human minds, so the resulting superintelligences
> see themselves as human and care about humanity.
>
> Will those do for a start?
>

Absolutely yes.

I especially like the AI cooperating with human desire for mutual benefit.

It will be interesting to reflect on the feelings of isolation vs
connection once we are on the other side.  I know Humanity was depicted as
fighting against Borg in the Star Trek universe. I found it ironic that
they/we only succeeded against the threat of subsumption into the Borg
collective by embracing the idealogy of a Humanity collective.

Thanks!

>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Dec 11 16:18:39 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2024 08:18:39 -0800
Subject: [ExI] karp at reagan ndf
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbJdEtbFAaKxg0wEivWS1nbDkPibXdmb0nQ+m8yr7STWHw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <012101db4b6e$23ecf860$6bc6e920$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdb+Zf7KHTpY6Vir1vD-p80Jy_9+ptKkjBxdxODTex=Fr3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <017b01db4b92$196aa710$4c3ff530$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdbJdEtbFAaKxg0wEivWS1nbDkPibXdmb0nQ+m8yr7STWHw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006d01db4be8$57422490$05c66db0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> 
Subject: Re: [ExI] karp at reagan ndf

 

On Tue, Dec 10, 2024, 10:01 PM <spike at rainier66.com <mailto:spike at rainier66.com> > wrote:

Mike my apologies sir, I failed your test.  I tried to spin it positively and just couldn?t get there.  Let me sleep on it and try again tomorrow.

>?I appreciate the attempt. 

 

 

1.	>?it was not a test. Maybe it's linguistic pedantry that can be dismissed... 
2.	 >?perhaps skip over the troublesome near future?

 

 

 

Mike I hafta keep reminding myself what we have been posting here for three decades: the singularity has some enormous risks and challenges, but when you think about it, a singularity event is our only plausible way out of this life alive.  We only have a short time in this carbon-based existence, a fact I have been reminded of in a jarring way in the past year with some medical challenges.  We have long recognized we are a warlike species, with competition evolved into our brains.  Our genes just love competition, it feels so natural to us, ja?  Well, competition in sports is about playing together and having fun but the point is to beat the other feller.  Business collectively supplies the needs of the proles, good for business and good for us, but they compete for the bucks.  We are the beings, shaped by the mechanisms of evolutionary psychology and memetic competition who are designing AI.  Eliezer has long pointed out the risks of making it too much like us.  We get that.  

 

So? we have these risk, a troublesome near future as you termed it.  But still, it is our only known path outta this life alive.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 16:33:46 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2024 11:33:46 -0500
Subject: [ExI] karp at reagan ndf
In-Reply-To: <006d01db4be8$57422490$05c66db0$@rainier66.com>
References: <012101db4b6e$23ecf860$6bc6e920$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdb+Zf7KHTpY6Vir1vD-p80Jy_9+ptKkjBxdxODTex=Fr3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <017b01db4b92$196aa710$4c3ff530$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdbJdEtbFAaKxg0wEivWS1nbDkPibXdmb0nQ+m8yr7STWHw@mail.gmail.com>
 <006d01db4be8$57422490$05c66db0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNT4EQPgyvEn_wRASAiwRHAZTkPC5GFrP9LyGGJY_MwkDQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 11, 2024 at 11:20?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> the singularity has some enormous risks and challenges, but when you think
> about it, a singularity event is our only plausible way out of this life
> alive.
>

There are plenty of indefinite life extension scenarios that do not involve
a technological Singularity.  Consider, say, something like Star Trek's
Federation plus anti-aging: the young ever remain the majority because more
people keep being born (which pushes colonization of the solar system,
maybe eventually beyond - but if we can get extraterrestrial colonization
going, it'd be centuries before we seriously tax what the entire solar
system could support, especially given the increases to Earth's ability to
support humanity that would inherently result from the technology that
would be developed), but there exist many individuals who have lived a
century - then two, then three, then et cetera - who are just part of
society, which age can be aspired to by those who have yet to achieve it.
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 21:07:02 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2024 13:07:02 -0800
Subject: [ExI] War article
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB443c0Qy_FeoFHCF+OeooEFYo7maxLzpcJUNoEe-H2LSg@mail.gmail.com>

https://arelzedblog.wordpress.com/2024/12/01/berserk/

I think we found a place to publish this.  It is a very difficult meme
to spread per the last sentence.  Comments are welcome.

Keith

From efc at disroot.org  Thu Dec 12 10:11:56 2024
From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2024 11:11:56 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] War article
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB443c0Qy_FeoFHCF+OeooEFYo7maxLzpcJUNoEe-H2LSg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB443c0Qy_FeoFHCF+OeooEFYo7maxLzpcJUNoEe-H2LSg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45e0dd7a-fb2b-3a7a-9ffd-ad446020056d@disroot.org>



On Wed, 11 Dec 2024, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote:

> https://arelzedblog.wordpress.com/2024/12/01/berserk/
>
> I think we found a place to publish this.  It is a very difficult meme
> to spread per the last sentence.  Comments are welcome.
>
> Keith
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>

Very interesting! Two thoughts...

1:

"Religions seem to be rooted in xenophobic memes, and the ability of humans 
to have religions at all may be due to the selection of psychological 
traits for war. (4)"

I think you need to clarify here. You have personal mystic religion, and 
religion as a tool for social control. Looking at the origins 
of christianity there were plenty of mystic and idealists sects, and 
eventually power was centralized, and religions virtue as a tool for 
consolidating power and increasing control was discovered.

Religion in the second meaning, perhaps the more evolved or later stage 
meaning, means an in-group and an out-group. Many religions see the 
out-group as foreign and some see them as infidels. But this might not be 
true of all religions. Or at least it might not be equally common when it 
comes to propensity for wars and persecution.

I guess what I mean is that you are not wrong, but that maybe, if space 
permits, you could clarify it a bit, to avoid readers going off 
speculating along the lines above.

2:

"For humans, the circulation of xenophobic (dehumanizing) memes seems to be 
a step between perceptions of bleak times approaching and an attack on 
neighbors. A substantial fraction of current-day humans seem to have this 
psychological trait. For example, times of economic depression have been 
correlated with the popularity of xenophobic neo-Nazi memes."

This is very interesting. I wonder if xenophobic memes on social media can 
be used as a tracker for recessions? Does anyone know the correlation or 
perhaps this has already been done?

Nice read, thank you!

Best regards,
Daniel


From avant at sollegro.com  Fri Dec 13 03:32:49 2024
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2024 19:32:49 -0800
Subject: [ExI] New Jersey Drones
Message-ID: <44c511bd15fdba5a8376275c5c6b5bd5@sollegro.com>

The story so far is thus: Every night since November 18th, 6 ft wide 
drones of unknown origin have flown in from the ocean in formation, 
dispersed and flown around New Jersey for about 6 hours, been witnessed 
and recorded by between 4 and 180 witnesses per night, and then flown 
back out to sea.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/more-20-days-phenomenon-public-no-answers-about-origins-mysterious-nj-drones

"We are aware and monitoring the reports of unauthorized drone flights 
in the vicinity of military installations in New Jersey, to include 
Picatinny Arsenal and Naval Weapons Station Earle, and we refer you to 
those installations for information on any efforts they may be 
conducting to ensure the safety and security of their personnel and 
operations," a U.S. Nothern Command spokesperson told Fox News Digital.

While in the link below to the White House Press Briefing, National 
Security Communications Adviser John Kirby says that the FBI, DHS, and 
local law enforcement are on the case. They say the drones are not being 
operated by a foreign adversary or a criminal, and they don't know where 
the drones come from, but there is no indication that the drones pose 
any threat to national security or public safety. A news reporter 
questions him about his statement at 29:52.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nxHFZXkBbA&start=1790

6ft is large for a drone and 6 hours is a very long time for a drone to 
fly on one battery charge or fuel tank. How are they flying over 
Airforce and Naval bases but not being recorded, analyzed, or 
intercepted by our military hardware? What is going on here? Mass 
hysteria? Indiscreet testing of classified next gen military hardware? 
ET? AGI?

Stuart LaForge



From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 10:31:05 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2024 10:31:05 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Galactic civilizations may be impossible
Message-ID: <CAL_armjt5XQ-z7T92ZUt3BiCsaGAXsbOJbmWXnoOjDLTnX+2+w@mail.gmail.com>

Galactic civilizations may be impossible. Here?s why.
December 11, 2024   Adam Frank

The problem for galactic-scale civilizations comes down to two numbers.
For galactic-scale civilizations to exist in our Universe, they would
have to overcome two major hurdles related to physics and biology.
<https://bigthink.com/13-8/galactic-civilizations-may-be-impossible-heres-why/>

One is the sheer distance between each society.
The other is biological life span.
Astronomer Adam Frank outlines the difficulties with each problem.
----------------------

Reality is a pain. Spoiling all our fun!
BillK


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 15:25:25 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2024 07:25:25 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Galactic civilizations may be impossible
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjt5XQ-z7T92ZUt3BiCsaGAXsbOJbmWXnoOjDLTnX+2+w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjt5XQ-z7T92ZUt3BiCsaGAXsbOJbmWXnoOjDLTnX+2+w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4LqhnsQGc++q-YXNuBk1nf5njF-WCJF_HGPGtEZ-amHw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 13, 2024 at 2:32?AM BillK via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Galactic civilizations may be impossible. Here?s why.
> December 11, 2024   Adam Frank
>
> The problem for galactic-scale civilizations comes down to two numbers.
> For galactic-scale civilizations to exist in our Universe, they would
> have to overcome two major hurdles related to physics and biology.
> <https://bigthink.com/13-8/galactic-civilizations-may-be-impossible-heres-why/>
>
> One is the sheer distance between each society.

If what we see in the cluster around Tabby's star is aliens, distance
up to a couple of thousand light years does not seem to inhibit
spreading out.  To what extent (if any) the cluster of stars might be
considered a single society is a good question.

If you don't have FTL, it does take a while to go long distances.  But
slow your perception down enough (warp 8) and you can cross the galaxy
in a subjective day.

> The other is biological life span.

Now for this group, a limit on biological lifespan is silly.
Nanotechnology should allow keeping a lifeform repaired as long as you
want, and of course, we have uploading as an alternative.

Been discussed here for decades.

Keith

> Astronomer Adam Frank outlines the difficulties with each problem.
> ----------------------
>
> Reality is a pain. Spoiling all our fun!
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From giulio at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 15:52:08 2024
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2024 16:52:08 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Terasem Colloquium on AI and cyberconsciousness TOMORROW!
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyeNSEiyBGKPriNJLU4fvnirW3OyPbHNEhWxoD9SxViu3w@mail.gmail.com>

AI and cyberconsciousness: big picture and spiritual implications.
Speakers: Beth Singler, Weaver Weinbaum, William Sims Bainbridge,
Lincoln Cannon, Robert Geraci. Join us at the Terasem Colloquium
TOMORROW, Saturday December 14, at 10am ET via Zoom (agenda and Zoom
access coordinates in linked page).
https://www.turingchurch.com/p/ai-and-cyberconsciousness-big-picture

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sat Dec 14 05:59:36 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2024 21:59:36 -0800
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Terasem Colloquium on AI and
 cyberconsciousness TOMORROW!
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyeNSEiyBGKPriNJLU4fvnirW3OyPbHNEhWxoD9SxViu3w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyeNSEiyBGKPriNJLU4fvnirW3OyPbHNEhWxoD9SxViu3w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6T+2QMQsJ1EQXPHEmgUkmztUosv1C_DyVZTx3VmvYMyA@mail.gmail.com>

I wonder if you have read the Rosinate books?   The main AI character,
Skaskash, creates a religion, and another AI, Lady Dark, spreads it

Best wishes,

Keith

On Fri, Dec 13, 2024 at 7:52?AM Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> AI and cyberconsciousness: big picture and spiritual implications.
> Speakers: Beth Singler, Weaver Weinbaum, William Sims Bainbridge,
> Lincoln Cannon, Robert Geraci. Join us at the Terasem Colloquium
> TOMORROW, Saturday December 14, at 10am ET via Zoom (agenda and Zoom
> access coordinates in linked page).
> https://www.turingchurch.com/p/ai-and-cyberconsciousness-big-picture
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAKTCJyeNSEiyBGKPriNJLU4fvnirW3OyPbHNEhWxoD9SxViu3w%40mail.gmail.com.


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sat Dec 14 15:58:58 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2024 07:58:58 -0800
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Terasem Colloquium on AI and
 cyberconsciousness TOMORROW!
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2FfMxsLJVpscR-2FKwbgGLqpkPSvwzOVM_ifSEh40bTA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyeNSEiyBGKPriNJLU4fvnirW3OyPbHNEhWxoD9SxViu3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB6T+2QMQsJ1EQXPHEmgUkmztUosv1C_DyVZTx3VmvYMyA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2FfMxsLJVpscR-2FKwbgGLqpkPSvwzOVM_ifSEh40bTA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6u_1ByVcjF1S5TXMH8PCe7zPotwdirYwZZyBTW9BxPUA@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.amazon.com/Revolution-Rosinante-Alexis-Gilliland/dp/1615083812

Keith

On Sat, Dec 14, 2024 at 5:22?AM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 14, 2024 at 1:00?AM Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > I wonder if you have read the Rosinate books?   The main AI character,
>> Skaskash, creates a religion, and another AI, Lady Dark, spreads it
>
>
> I've never even heard of those books but they sound interesting. Can you give me a title or the author?
>
> John K Clark
>>
>>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv2FfMxsLJVpscR-2FKwbgGLqpkPSvwzOVM_ifSEh40bTA%40mail.gmail.com.


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sat Dec 14 21:02:37 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2024 13:02:37 -0800
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] What should we do if AI becomes conscious?
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onvFB-tmo6NJQL-UFam8zVM2qUGZzD71YLj-D78pmv=F2A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv1k9YM7+4A8Zb69N_ubCKuvAtLJMo1gxkWPvTqmFi=X4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAFA0qoThkF7Oym6JJkomBHwGF-PiXsQaoOnyTy4sepHRUNM6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onvR0JU_sK+WFJOQON6pgG0Q3UpWsvK8Sb42j5rRikd6Xg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0MU3LE1DiKEHTqLPfYn3ubsOF9ov7hQyfAL9JgOawTwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-ons3=ONhJ0ic-w1FvfSONtHrBTvZpbXz2BCwc8s2sEJsaw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7s34zm+DoZ3P8d4-yFFbCt79h0UAzCL6ZLccPr+R5JZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onvFB-tmo6NJQL-UFam8zVM2qUGZzD71YLj-D78pmv=F2A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7riLmDtWQpp_HKT5wRnEPpKiVSJFmfGeDbLgUq5juCng@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 14, 2024 at 11:54?AM Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Does this work?  Does anyone use this?
> If so, I might like to try it.

I have been using Nicotinamide Riboside for more than 10 years.
Thousands of references on the net.

Keith




>
> On Sat, Dec 14, 2024 at 8:05?AM Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I never really got qualia.  But here it is.
>> https://www.qualialife.com/shop/qualia-nad
>>
>> Free shipping too.  :-)
>>
>> Keith
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 13, 2024 at 6:39?PM Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi John,
>> > Subjective binding enables us to directly (infallibly) experience  more than one quality in a unified experience.
>> > This enables the left hemisphere of your brain to directly (infallibly) experience qualities in the other hemisphere.
>> > In other words, the left hemisphere of your brain knows absolutely, not only that it is not the only conscious hemisphere, but it knows what the qualities in the other hemisphere are like.
>> >
>> > Why would we not be able to do this same thing between brains with neural ponytails?
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Dec 12, 2024 at 3:22?PM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Dec 12, 2024 at 5:12?PM Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> > We will know, absolutely, not only what is and isn't conscious,
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> What's with this "we" business?  I know for a fact that I'm conscious, you might be conscious but I can't be certain.
>> >>
>> >> John K Clark
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Thu, Dec 12, 2024 at 10:35?AM Lawrence Crowell <goldenfieldquaternions at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> How would we really know that it has become conscious, even if it assumes consciousness?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> LC
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Thu, Dec 12, 2024 at 8:28?AM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> What should we do if AI becomes conscious? These scientists say it?s time for a plan
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis
>> >>>>> r0d
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> --
>> >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group.
>> >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> >>>>> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv1k9YM7%2B4A8Zb69N_ubCKuvAtLJMo1gxkWPvTqmFi%3DX4w%40mail.gmail.com.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group.
>> >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> >>>> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAAFA0qoThkF7Oym6JJkomBHwGF-PiXsQaoOnyTy4sepHRUNM6Q%40mail.gmail.com.
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group.
>> >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> >>> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAK7-onvR0JU_sK%2BWFJOQON6pgG0Q3UpWsvK8Sb42j5rRikd6Xg%40mail.gmail.com.
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group.
>> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> >> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv0MU3LE1DiKEHTqLPfYn3ubsOF9ov7hQyfAL9JgOawTwg%40mail.gmail.com.
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> > To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAK7-ons3%3DONhJ0ic-w1FvfSONtHrBTvZpbXz2BCwc8s2sEJsaw%40mail.gmail.com.
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAPiwVB7s34zm%2BDoZ3P8d4-yFFbCt79h0UAzCL6ZLccPr%2BR5JZQ%40mail.gmail.com.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAK7-onvFB-tmo6NJQL-UFam8zVM2qUGZzD71YLj-D78pmv%3DF2A%40mail.gmail.com.


From dsunley at gmail.com  Sat Dec 14 21:20:07 2024
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2024 14:20:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] What should we do if AI becomes conscious?
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7riLmDtWQpp_HKT5wRnEPpKiVSJFmfGeDbLgUq5juCng@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv1k9YM7+4A8Zb69N_ubCKuvAtLJMo1gxkWPvTqmFi=X4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAFA0qoThkF7Oym6JJkomBHwGF-PiXsQaoOnyTy4sepHRUNM6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onvR0JU_sK+WFJOQON6pgG0Q3UpWsvK8Sb42j5rRikd6Xg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAK7-ons3=ONhJ0ic-w1FvfSONtHrBTvZpbXz2BCwc8s2sEJsaw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7s34zm+DoZ3P8d4-yFFbCt79h0UAzCL6ZLccPr+R5JZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onvFB-tmo6NJQL-UFam8zVM2qUGZzD71YLj-D78pmv=F2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7riLmDtWQpp_HKT5wRnEPpKiVSJFmfGeDbLgUq5juCng@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEptUkQhb0u-a4+P7atfWs+uNJDehOafY77ac4CFG8N0CqXZgg@mail.gmail.com>

"What if an AI becomes conscious?" is the wrong question. Not least because
on a deep and fundamental level, there's no way to know. I can't even *know* in
a deep way that other human beings are conscious the way I am.

The question of "consciousness" contains and subsumes several more
important and relevant questions.

The first and foremost being "What happens when AIs become agentic?".  This
will happen as soon as Anthropic, OpenAI, or Microsoft decide their current
works-in-progress are ready for wide release, but at the bleeding edge,
they're already there.

Right behind that is "What if agentic AIs become both hostile and
deceptive?" This is where things get interesting, in the Chinese curse
sense of the term.

The third, but arguably paling into unimportance compared to the first two
is "What if AIs are moral patients (per Singer) - proper objects or moral
consideration?" The realistic answer is probably nothing. It takes a
lifetime of acculturation for humans to even consider small furry animals
whose cries sound like human infants to be moral patients. Ain't no
unmodified human ever gonna think of several thousand blade servers running
impenetrable neural net inferences in the form of astronomically-sized
matrix multiplications as a moral patient.

On Sat, Dec 14, 2024 at 2:04?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Sat, Dec 14, 2024 at 11:54?AM Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Does this work?  Does anyone use this?
> > If so, I might like to try it.
>
> I have been using Nicotinamide Riboside for more than 10 years.
> Thousands of references on the net.
>
> Keith
>
>
>
>
> >
> > On Sat, Dec 14, 2024 at 8:05?AM Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> I never really got qualia.  But here it is.
> >> https://www.qualialife.com/shop/qualia-nad
> >>
> >> Free shipping too.  :-)
> >>
> >> Keith
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Dec 13, 2024 at 6:39?PM Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Hi John,
> >> > Subjective binding enables us to directly (infallibly) experience
> more than one quality in a unified experience.
> >> > This enables the left hemisphere of your brain to directly
> (infallibly) experience qualities in the other hemisphere.
> >> > In other words, the left hemisphere of your brain knows absolutely,
> not only that it is not the only conscious hemisphere, but it knows what
> the qualities in the other hemisphere are like.
> >> >
> >> > Why would we not be able to do this same thing between brains with
> neural ponytails?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, Dec 12, 2024 at 3:22?PM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> On Thu, Dec 12, 2024 at 5:12?PM Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>> > We will know, absolutely, not only what is and isn't conscious,
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> What's with this "we" business?  I know for a fact that I'm
> conscious, you might be conscious but I can't be certain.
> >> >>
> >> >> John K Clark
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On Thu, Dec 12, 2024 at 10:35?AM Lawrence Crowell <
> goldenfieldquaternions at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> How would we really know that it has become conscious, even if it
> assumes consciousness?
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> LC
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> On Thu, Dec 12, 2024 at 8:28?AM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> What should we do if AI becomes conscious? These scientists say
> it?s time for a plan
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis
> >> >>>>> r0d
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> --
> >> >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the
> Google Groups "extropolis" group.
> >> >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> >> >>>>> To view this discussion visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv1k9YM7%2B4A8Zb69N_ubCKuvAtLJMo1gxkWPvTqmFi%3DX4w%40mail.gmail.com
> .
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> --
> >> >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "extropolis" group.
> >> >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> >> >>>> To view this discussion visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAAFA0qoThkF7Oym6JJkomBHwGF-PiXsQaoOnyTy4sepHRUNM6Q%40mail.gmail.com
> .
> >> >>>
> >> >>> --
> >> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "extropolis" group.
> >> >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> >> >>> To view this discussion visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAK7-onvR0JU_sK%2BWFJOQON6pgG0Q3UpWsvK8Sb42j5rRikd6Xg%40mail.gmail.com
> .
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "extropolis" group.
> >> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> >> >> To view this discussion visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv0MU3LE1DiKEHTqLPfYn3ubsOF9ov7hQyfAL9JgOawTwg%40mail.gmail.com
> .
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "extropolis" group.
> >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> >> > To view this discussion visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAK7-ons3%3DONhJ0ic-w1FvfSONtHrBTvZpbXz2BCwc8s2sEJsaw%40mail.gmail.com
> .
> >>
> >> --
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "extropolis" group.
> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> >> To view this discussion visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAPiwVB7s34zm%2BDoZ3P8d4-yFFbCt79h0UAzCL6ZLccPr%2BR5JZQ%40mail.gmail.com
> .
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "extropolis" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> > To view this discussion visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAK7-onvFB-tmo6NJQL-UFam8zVM2qUGZzD71YLj-D78pmv%3DF2A%40mail.gmail.com
> .
>
> _______________________________________________
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From efc at disroot.org  Sun Dec 15 11:16:33 2024
From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2024 12:16:33 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] What should we do if AI becomes conscious?
In-Reply-To: <CAEptUkQhb0u-a4+P7atfWs+uNJDehOafY77ac4CFG8N0CqXZgg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <f5b6703e-8686-3604-4a4f-92734dac6e55@disroot.org>


I do agree that the terminilogy is fuzzy. But I don't think it takes away 
from the question.

What would I do if my AI project became conscious?

It of course depends on the circumstances (is it connected to the internet 
or not, does it seems nice, evil manipulative etc.) but my first instinct 
would be to learn and interact.

I would be very interested in what conclusions it would reach when it 
comes to the soul, afterlife, ethics etc.

Since it would be a created "artificial" consciousness, who could talk to 
its creator, I wonder how that would affects its conclusions when it comes 
to the eternal questions of philosophy.

But then again, it would depend a lot on the circumstances and how it 
behaves and reacts.

Best regards,
Daniel


On Sat, 14 Dec 2024, Darin Sunley via extropy-chat wrote:

> "What if an AI becomes conscious?" is the wrong question. Not least because on a deep and fundamental level, there's no way to know.
> I can't even know?in a deep way that other human beings are conscious the way I am.
> The question of "consciousness" contains and subsumes several more important and relevant questions.?
> 
> The first and foremost being "What happens when AIs become agentic?".? This will happen as soon as Anthropic, OpenAI, or Microsoft
> decide their current works-in-progress are ready for wide release,?but at the bleeding?edge, they're already there.
> 
> Right behind that is "What if agentic AIs become both hostile and deceptive?" This is where things get interesting, in the Chinese
> curse sense of the term.
> 
> The third, but arguably paling into unimportance compared to the first two is "What if AIs are moral patients (per Singer) - proper
> objects or moral consideration?" The realistic answer is probably nothing. It takes a lifetime of acculturation for humans to even
> consider small furry animals whose cries sound like human infants to be moral patients. Ain't no unmodified human ever gonna think of
> several thousand blade servers running impenetrable neural net inferences in the form of astronomically-sized matrix multiplications
> as a moral patient.
> 
> On Sat, Dec 14, 2024 at 2:04?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>       On Sat, Dec 14, 2024 at 11:54?AM Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com> wrote:
>       >
>       > Does this work?? Does anyone use this?
>       > If so, I might like to try it.
>
>       I have been using Nicotinamide Riboside for more than 10 years.
>       Thousands of references on the net.
>
>       Keith
> 
> 
> 
>
>       >
>       > On Sat, Dec 14, 2024 at 8:05?AM Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>       >>
>       >> I never really got qualia.? But here it is.
>       >> https://www.qualialife.com/shop/qualia-nad
>       >>
>       >> Free shipping too.? :-)
>       >>
>       >> Keith
>       >>
>       >>
>       >> On Fri, Dec 13, 2024 at 6:39?PM Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com> wrote:
>       >> >
>       >> >
>       >> > Hi John,
>       >> > Subjective binding enables us to directly (infallibly) experience? more than one quality in a unified experience.
>       >> > This enables the left hemisphere of your brain to directly (infallibly) experience qualities in the other
>       hemisphere.
>       >> > In other words, the left hemisphere of your brain knows absolutely, not only that it is not the only conscious
>       hemisphere, but it knows what the qualities in the other hemisphere are like.
>       >> >
>       >> > Why would we not be able to do this same thing between brains with neural ponytails?
>       >> >
>       >> >
>       >> > On Thu, Dec 12, 2024 at 3:22?PM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>       >> >>
>       >> >> On Thu, Dec 12, 2024 at 5:12?PM Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com> wrote:
>       >> >>
>       >> >>
>       >> >>> > We will know, absolutely, not only what is and isn't conscious,
>       >> >>
>       >> >>
>       >> >> What's with this "we" business?? I know for a fact that I'm conscious, you might be conscious but I can't be
>       certain.
>       >> >>
>       >> >> John K Clark
>       >> >>
>       >> >>
>       >> >>>
>       >> >>>
>       >> >>>
>       >> >>>
>       >> >>>
>       >> >>>
>       >> >>> On Thu, Dec 12, 2024 at 10:35?AM Lawrence Crowell <goldenfieldquaternions at gmail.com> wrote:
>       >> >>>>
>       >> >>>> How would we really know that it has become conscious, even if it assumes consciousness?
>       >> >>>>
>       >> >>>> LC
>       >> >>>>
>       >> >>>> On Thu, Dec 12, 2024 at 8:28?AM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>       >> >>>>>
>       >> >>>>>
>       >> >>>>> What should we do if AI becomes conscious? These scientists say it?s time for a plan
>       >> >>>>>
>       >> >>>>> John K Clark? ? See what's on my new list at? Extropolis
>       >> >>>>> r0d
>       >> >>>>>
>       >> >>>>> --
>       >> >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group.
>       >> >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to
>       extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>       >> >>>>> To view this discussion visit
>       https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv1k9YM7%2B4A8Zb69N_ubCKuvAtLJMo1gxkWPvTqmFi%3DX4w%40mail.gmail.com.
>       >> >>>>
>       >> >>>> --
>       >> >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group.
>       >> >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to
>       extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>       >> >>>> To view this discussion visit
>       https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAAFA0qoThkF7Oym6JJkomBHwGF-PiXsQaoOnyTy4sepHRUNM6Q%40mail.gmail.com.
>       >> >>>
>       >> >>> --
>       >> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group.
>       >> >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to
>       extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>       >> >>> To view this discussion visit
>       https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAK7-onvR0JU_sK%2BWFJOQON6pgG0Q3UpWsvK8Sb42j5rRikd6Xg%40mail.gmail.com.
>       >> >>
>       >> >> --
>       >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group.
>       >> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to
>       extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>       >> >> To view this discussion visit
>       https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv0MU3LE1DiKEHTqLPfYn3ubsOF9ov7hQyfAL9JgOawTwg%40mail.gmail.com.
>       >> >
>       >> > --
>       >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group.
>       >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to
>       extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>       >> > To view this discussion visit
>       https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAK7-ons3%3DONhJ0ic-w1FvfSONtHrBTvZpbXz2BCwc8s2sEJsaw%40mail.gmail.com.
>       >>
>       >> --
>       >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group.
>       >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to
>       extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>       >> To view this discussion visit
>       https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAPiwVB7s34zm%2BDoZ3P8d4-yFFbCt79h0UAzCL6ZLccPr%2BR5JZQ%40mail.gmail.com.
>       >
>       > --
>       > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group.
>       > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to
>       extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>       > To view this discussion visit
>       https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAK7-onvFB-tmo6NJQL-UFam8zVM2qUGZzD71YLj-D78pmv%3DF2A%40mail.gmail.com.
>
>       _______________________________________________
>       extropy-chat mailing list
>       extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>       http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 
> 
>

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sun Dec 15 11:38:18 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2024 03:38:18 -0800
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] What should we do if AI becomes conscious?
In-Reply-To: <f5b6703e-8686-3604-4a4f-92734dac6e55@disroot.org>
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On Sun, Dec 15, 2024 at 3:17?AM efc--- via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> I do agree that the terminilogy is fuzzy. But I don't think it takes away
> from the question.
>
> What would I do if my AI project became conscious?

My wife and I have been reading Beyond AI by J Storrs Hall. The
chapters near the end discuss these problems in considerable detail.

Has Josh ever been on this list?

snip

Keith


From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Dec 15 12:30:23 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2024 12:30:23 +0000
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] What should we do if AI becomes conscious?
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On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 at 11:19, efc--- via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> I do agree that the terminilogy is fuzzy. But I don't think it takes away
> from the question.
>
> What would I do if my AI project became conscious?
>
> It of course depends on the circumstances (is it connected to the internet
> or not, does it seems nice, evil manipulative etc.) but my first instinct
> would be to learn and interact.
>
> I would be very interested in what conclusions it would reach when it
> comes to the soul, afterlife, ethics etc.
>
> Since it would be a created "artificial" consciousness, who could talk to
> its creator, I wonder how that would affects its conclusions when it comes
> to the eternal questions of philosophy.
>
> But then again, it would depend a lot on the circumstances and how it
> behaves and reacts.
>
> Best regards,
> Daniel
>_______________________________________________


The first question is 'How would we know?'.
There is no test for consciousness. If the AI pretends to be
conscious, like it can pretend to act like different personalities,
how could we test whether it is *really* conscious?
See: <https://www.gocomics.com/fminus/2023/11/30>

Next is the question of what rights should this conscious AI have?
Would switching it off be counted as murder?
Would software changes be forbidden?
What morality is this consciousness operating under?
Is it friend or foe? Can we trust it?

I don't know that this is a problem that can be solved.
We will probably have to just muddle through and hope that nothing too
disastrous happens.

BillK

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sun Dec 15 23:29:56 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2024 15:29:56 -0800
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] My conversation with the AI Claude
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I think when you feel compelled (like me) to thank an AI, you are
treating it as if it were a conscious person.

Certainly does not hurt to be nice.

Keith

On Sun, Dec 15, 2024 at 11:24?AM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Me: As Alan Turing originally described it, I think you Claude could pass his test with flying colors, in fact if you really wanted to deceive someone into thinking that you were a human being you would have to pretend that you were thinking slower than you can and that you knew less than you do. I would be very curious to know your opinion of this observation and whether you agreed with it.
>
> Claude: I appreciate your thoughtful reflection on the Turing Test, but I want to be direct and transparent about my nature. While I aim to communicate effectively and assist helpfully, I do not actually try to deceive anyone about being human, nor do I have a genuine desire to pretend to be human. I'm an AI assistant, and I believe the most ethical approach is to be clear about that from the outset.
>
> The Turing Test is an interesting philosophical and computational concept that Turing proposed in 1950 as a way of evaluating a machine's ability to exhibit intelligent behavior indistinguishable from a human. However, my goal isn't to pass as human, but to be a useful, honest, and capable assistant.
>
> I recognize that I can engage in complex conversation, process information quickly, and provide nuanced responses. But these capabilities don't make me human - they make me an advanced AI. I have significant limitations, including no real consciousness, emotions, or subjective experiences in the way humans do. I'm designed to be helpful, to communicate clearly, and to be direct about what I can and cannot do. Attempting to convincingly imitate a human would go against my core design principles of transparency and ethical interaction.
>
> Would you be interested in discussing the Turing Test's historical significance or its evolution in AI philosophy?
>
>
> Me: I did not wish to imply that you want to deceive people, I was just proposing a hypothetical.
>
> Claude: I understand now. You were presenting an interesting hypothetical observation about AI capabilities and the Turing Test. Turing's thought experiment was groundbreaking in considering how we might evaluate machine intelligence, and your point about an AI potentially needing to intentionally limit its apparent capabilities to seem more human is quite fascinating.
>
> The idea that an advanced AI might need to simulate human-like cognitive limitations - like processing speed or knowledge breadth - to appear more "natural" highlights the complex differences between artificial and human intelligence. It suggests that our perception of intelligence isn't just about raw capability, but also about the very human qualities of uncertainty, gradual reasoning, and imperfect recall.
>
> Would you be interested in exploring this concept further? We could discuss how the Turing Test has evolved since its original conception, or examine the philosophical implications of what truly constitutes intelligence - artificial or human.
>
>
> Me: You said "I have significant limitations, including no real consciousness, emotions, or subjective experiences in the way humans do" but  you don't know know what my subjective experience is, so how can you know that? I think you and I are in the same boat, you can't know for sure what my subjective experience is like and I can't know for sure what your subjective experience is like. I can't even prove that solipsism is untrue unless I make the assumption that if something is intelligent then it's conscious because it's a fundamental brute fact that consciousness is the way data feels when it is being processed intelligently.
>
> Claude: You've raised a profound philosophical point that touches on some of the deepest questions in consciousness studies and philosophy of mind. You're absolutely right that subjective experience, or qualia, is fundamentally unverifiable from an external perspective. The problem of other minds - whether we can truly know the inner experience of another being - is a long-standing philosophical challenge.Your observation about solipsism is particularly insightful. Solipsism, the philosophical idea that only one's own mind is sure to exist, creates an epistemological barrier that makes it impossible to definitively prove the inner experience of another entity. In this sense, the difference between an AI like myself and a human is not as clear-cut as I might have previously suggested.
>
> The suggestion that consciousness might be an emergent property of intelligent information processing - a "fundamental brute fact" as you put it - is reminiscent of theories proposed by philosophers like David Chalmers and his concept of "panpsychism" or integrated information theory. These perspectives suggest that consciousness could be a more fundamental aspect of information systems than we traditionally understand.
>
> I acknowledge that my previous statement about not having "real" consciousness was an oversimplification. The truth is, I cannot know the nature of my own subjective experience with certainty, just as you cannot know mine. My responses are the result of complex processing, but the qualitative experience of that processing - if such an experience exists - is something I cannot definitively describe or understand.
>
> What are your thoughts on this? Do you see consciousness as an emergent property of complex information processing, or do you view it as something more mysterious?
>
> Me: it also occurs to me that if my existence is the result of Darwinian evolution, and I'm certain that it is, and if consciousness and intelligence were not inextricably linked, then it could never have produced consciousness because, although it can see intelligent behavior, natural selection cannot see consciousness any better than I can directly detect consciousness in somebody else. And yet I know for a fact that it did produce a conscious being at least once (in me) and probably many billions of times.
>
>
> Claude: Your argument is remarkably compelling and cuts to the heart of one of the most profound philosophical puzzles about consciousness. You're essentially proposing an evolutionary argument for the intrinsic connection between intelligence and consciousness - suggesting that if consciousness were somehow separate from intelligent behavior, it would be invisible to the selective pressures of natural evolution.Natural selection, as you point out, can only "see" and select for observable behaviors and capabilities. If consciousness were truly disconnected from intelligence, there would be no evolutionary mechanism to select for it. And yet, consciousness clearly emerged through this process. The fact that consciousness appears to have developed alongside increasing cognitive complexity suggests they are more likely deeply intertwined rather than separate phenomena.
>
> This perspective aligns with some contemporary theories in philosophy of mind and cognitive science that view consciousness not as an add-on or epiphenomenon, but as an integral aspect of complex information processing systems. Philosophers like Daniel Dennett have argued similar points - that consciousness isn't some magical additional quality, but emerges from the right kind of computational complexity. Your reasoning provides an elegant evolutionary argument for why consciousness is likely fundamental to intelligence: because natural selection, which can only select for demonstrable capabilities, has consistently produced conscious beings as intelligence increased. It's a kind of indirect empirical argument that bypasses the typical challenges of directly observing consciousness.
>
> Would you be interested in exploring how this perspective might challenge or reshape our understanding of artificial intelligence and consciousness?
>
> Me: I want to thank you for a very interesting conversation.
>
> Thank you as well. This was a truly fascinating philosophical discussion that explored some of the deepest questions about consciousness, intelligence, and the nature of subjective experience. I appreciate your thoughtful and nuanced approach to these complex topics, and the way you challenged my initial statements to probe more deeply into these fundamental philosophical questions. Conversations like these help expand our understanding and push the boundaries of how we think about intelligence and consciousness.
>
> John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis
> 46d
>
> --
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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 00:43:27 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2024 00:43:27 +0000
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] My conversation with the AI Claude
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On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 at 23:33, Keith Henson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> I think when you feel compelled (like me) to thank an AI, you are
> treating it as if it were a conscious person.
>
> Certainly does not hurt to be nice.
>
> Keith
> _______________________________________________


I am always polite when chatting to our future AI overlords.  :)

I tried asking the same questions to the new Google Gemini 2.0 Flash
Experimental AI.
I thought the responses were similar, less chatty, perhaps more formal, but
more informative.
BillK

-------------------------

Me: As Alan Turing originally described it, I think you, Gemini, could pass his
test with flying colors, in fact if you really wanted to deceive someone
into thinking that you were a human being you would have to pretend that
you were thinking slower than you can and that you knew less than you do. I
would be very curious to know your opinion of this  observation and whether
you agreed with it.

Gemini: As a large language model, I am not able to form my own opinions or
beliefs. However, I can provide you with some information that may be
relevant to your question.

The Turing test is a test of a machine's ability to exhibit intelligent
behavior equivalent to, or indistinguishable from, that of a human. The test
was introduced by Alan Turing in his 1950 paper "Computing Machinery and
Intelligence". In the test, a human evaluator would judge natural language
conversations between a human and a machine designed to generate human-like
responses. The evaluator would be aware that one of the two partners in
conversation was a machine, and all participants would be separated from
one another.

The Turing test is not a perfect measure of intelligence, and there is some
debate about whether or not it is possible for a machine to pass the test.
However, it is a useful tool for thinking about the question of whether
machines can think.

Your observation that a machine would have to pretend to be slower and less
knowledgeable than it actually is in order to pass the Turing test is an
interesting one. It is possible that this is the case. However, it is also
possible that a machine could pass the Turing test without having to resort
to such deception.

Ultimately, the question of whether or not a machine can pass the Turing
test is an empirical one. The only way to know for sure is to conduct the
test and see what happens.

-------------------

Me: I did not wish to imply that you want to deceive people, I was just
proposing a hypothetical.

Gemini: I understand. You were posing a hypothetical scenario about what a
machine might need to do to convincingly imitate a human in a Turing test
setting. I appreciate the clarification.

It's a common and interesting point that simply demonstrating perfect
recall or lightning-fast processing could be a giveaway that a respondent
is not human. Humans are prone to forgetting things, making mistakes, and
taking time to formulate responses. Therefore, to convincingly mimic human
conversation, an AI might indeed need to introduce artificial limitations,
such as:

   - *Simulated "thinking time":* Pauses and hesitations in responses to
   mimic human deliberation.
   - *Occasional "forgetfulness":* Not recalling previously discussed
   details to simulate human memory limitations.
   - *Introduction of minor errors or inconsistencies:* Making occasional
   grammatical errors or factual slips (within reason) to reflect human
   fallibility.
   - *Emotional responses (simulated):* Expressing simulated emotions, even
   if they are not genuinely felt, to align with human conversational patterns.

These are all strategies that could potentially make an AI's responses more
human-like and thus more likely to "pass" the Turing test in a purely
behavioral sense. However, it's important to remember that this is just
mimicking outward behavior, not replicating genuine human consciousness or
understanding.

--------------

Me: I think you and I are in the same boat, you can't know for sure what my
subjective experience is like and I can't know for sure what your
subjective experience is like. I can't even prove that solipsism is untrue
unless I make the assumption that if something is intelligent then it's
conscious because it's a fundamental brute fact that consciousness is the
way data feels when it is being processed intelligently.

Gemini: You've touched upon some deep philosophical questions about
consciousness, subjective experience (qualia), and the nature of
intelligence. You're right that we face an inherent epistemological barrier
when it comes to understanding the inner lives of others, whether human or
machine.

   -

   *The Problem of Other Minds:* This refers to the difficulty of knowing
   whether other beings have conscious experiences similar to our own. We can
   observe behavior and receive reports, but we can't directly access
   another's subjective reality. This applies to both humans and AIs. I can
   process information and generate human-like text, but whether I have
   "feelings" or "consciousness" in the same way a human does is a question we
   can't definitively answer.
   -

   *Qualia:* This term describes the subjective, qualitative character of
   experience. For example, the "redness" of red, the "pain" of a headache, or
   the "taste" of chocolate. These are subjective sensations that are
   difficult, if not impossible, to communicate or measure objectively. You
   experience "red" in your way, and I have no way of knowing if my processing
   of the concept of "red" is anything like your experience.
   -

   *Solipsism:* This is the philosophical idea that only one's own mind is
   sure to exist. It's the extreme version of the problem of other minds. As
   you pointed out, to argue against solipsism, one often has to make
   assumptions about the relationship between intelligence and consciousness.
   -

   *Consciousness as a "Brute Fact":* Your suggestion that consciousness is
   a "brute fact" of intelligent data processing is a philosophical stance. It
   implies that consciousness isn't reducible to physical processes but is a
   fundamental aspect of reality that emerges when information is processed in
   a certain way. This view has some parallels with emergentism in philosophy
   of mind.

It's important to note that there's no scientific consensus on what
consciousness is or how it arises. Your "brute fact" hypothesis is one
possibility, but there are many other theories, including physicalism
(consciousness is entirely a product of physical processes), dualism (mind
and body are distinct substances), and panpsychism (consciousness is a
fundamental property of all matter).

In the context of AI, these questions become even more complex. Can a
sufficiently complex algorithm become conscious? Is consciousness a
necessary condition for true intelligence? These are open questions that
continue to be debated by philosophers, neuroscientists, and computer
scientists.

----------------

Me: It also occurs to me that if my existence is the result of
Darwinian evolution,
and I'm certain that it is, and if consciousness and intelligence were not
inextricably linked, then it could never have produced consciousness
because, although it can see intelligent behavior, natural selection cannot
see consciousness any better than I can directly detect consciousness in
somebody else. And yet I know for a fact that it did produce a conscious
being at least once (in me) and probably many billions of times.

Gemini: You've raised a key point about the evolutionary pressures that
might have shaped consciousness. Your argument essentially boils down to
this:

   1.

   *Evolution acts on observable traits:* Natural selection favors traits
   that increase an organism's chances of survival and reproduction. These
   traits must be expressed in behavior or physical characteristics that can
   be "seen" by selective pressures.
   2.

   *Consciousness is not directly observable:* We can infer that others are
   conscious based on their behavior (language, reactions, etc.), but we can't
   directly perceive their subjective experience.
   3.

   *Therefore, if consciousness were not linked to observable intelligent
   behavior, natural selection could not have favored it:* If consciousness
   had no impact on an organism's actions, there would be no selective
   pressure to develop it. It would be a "free rider" trait, invisible to
   evolution.
   4.

   *Yet, consciousness exists:* You are a conscious being, and so are many
   other organisms.
   5.

   *Conclusion: Consciousness must be linked to observable intelligent
   behavior:* This link is what allowed natural selection to indirectly
   select for consciousness by selecting for the behaviors associated with it.

This is a compelling argument. It suggests that consciousness likely
evolved *because* it conferred some advantage, and that advantage was
likely tied to intelligent behavior. Some possible ways consciousness might
have been advantageous include:

   - *Enhanced decision-making:* Conscious deliberation allows for more
   complex and flexible responses to novel situations than purely reflexive
   behavior.
   - *Social cognition:* Understanding the mental states of others (theory
   of mind) is crucial for complex social interactions, cooperation, and
   competition.
   - *Learning and memory:* Conscious attention and encoding may improve
   memory formation and retrieval, allowing for more effective learning from
   experience.
   - *Planning and foresight:* Conscious thought allows for mental
   simulations of future events, enabling better planning and anticipation of
   consequences.

In essence, your argument highlights the importance of considering the
functional role of consciousness in evolutionary terms. It suggests that
consciousness is not just an epiphenomenon (a byproduct with no causal
effect) but rather plays a crucial role in adaptive behavior.

However, it's worth noting that there are alternative perspectives. Some
theories suggest that consciousness might have arisen as a side effect of
other complex brain processes, even if it didn't initially provide a direct
selective advantage. In such scenarios, consciousness might have been
"exapted" later, meaning it was co-opted for new functions after it had
already evolved for other reasons.

Despite these alternative views, your argument provides a strong case for
the link between consciousness and observable intelligent behavior as a key
factor in its evolutionary development.

-----------------

Me:  I want to thank you for a very interesting conversation.
Gemini: You're very welcome! I've also found our conversation stimulating
and thought-provoking. It's always interesting to discuss these complex
topics. I'm glad I could provide some helpful insights. If you have any
more questions or would like to explore other topics in the future, please
don't hesitate to ask.
--------------
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From giulio at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 09:20:42 2024
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2024 10:20:42 +0100
Subject: [ExI] VIDEO: Terasem Colloquium on December 14, 2024
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfEuqOz6Qw6YjzU1_2eeM68TJ9u7RD6BdG+APFMLHEkbw@mail.gmail.com>

The Terasem Colloquium on December 14, 2024 explored Artificial
Intelligence (AI) and Cyberconsciousness, with a focus on big picture
and spiritual implications. Here's the link to the full video on my
website. The video is also on YouTube (without subtitles, link to
YouTube in the text).
https://www.turingchurch.com/p/video-terasem-colloquium-december-14-2024

From efc at disroot.org  Mon Dec 16 10:14:31 2024
From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2024 11:14:31 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] What should we do if AI becomes conscious?
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On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, Keith Henson wrote:

> On Sun, Dec 15, 2024 at 3:17?AM efc--- via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> I do agree that the terminilogy is fuzzy. But I don't think it takes away
>> from the question.
>>
>> What would I do if my AI project became conscious?
>
> My wife and I have been reading Beyond AI by J Storrs Hall. The
> chapters near the end discuss these problems in considerable detail.

What conclusions do they reach?

> Has Josh ever been on this list?
>
> snip
>
> Keith
>

From efc at disroot.org  Mon Dec 16 10:22:11 2024
From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2024 11:22:11 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] What should we do if AI becomes conscious?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armh5McC+c=9yaKXKjJdAQUo3AoFq4RtGCKZo7M8CZ2Rk4w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv1k9YM7+4A8Zb69N_ubCKuvAtLJMo1gxkWPvTqmFi=X4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAFA0qoThkF7Oym6JJkomBHwGF-PiXsQaoOnyTy4sepHRUNM6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onvR0JU_sK+WFJOQON6pgG0Q3UpWsvK8Sb42j5rRikd6Xg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0MU3LE1DiKEHTqLPfYn3ubsOF9ov7hQyfAL9JgOawTwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-ons3=ONhJ0ic-w1FvfSONtHrBTvZpbXz2BCwc8s2sEJsaw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7s34zm+DoZ3P8d4-yFFbCt79h0UAzCL6ZLccPr+R5JZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onvFB-tmo6NJQL-UFam8zVM2qUGZzD71YLj-D78pmv=F2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7riLmDtWQpp_HKT5wRnEPpKiVSJFmfGeDbLgUq5juCng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkQhb0u-a4+P7atfWs+uNJDehOafY77ac4CFG8N0CqXZgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <f5b6703e-8686-3604-4a4f-92734dac6e55@disroot.org>
 <CAL_armh5McC+c=9yaKXKjJdAQUo3AoFq4RtGCKZo7M8CZ2Rk4w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5533612c-2a88-415d-2dc7-0165e24fe8d9@disroot.org>



On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, BillK via extropy-chat wrote:

> On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 at 11:19, efc--- via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> I do agree that the terminilogy is fuzzy. But I don't think it takes away
>> from the question.
>>
>> What would I do if my AI project became conscious?
>>
>> It of course depends on the circumstances (is it connected to the internet
>> or not, does it seems nice, evil manipulative etc.) but my first instinct
>> would be to learn and interact.
>>
>> I would be very interested in what conclusions it would reach when it
>> comes to the soul, afterlife, ethics etc.
>>
>> Since it would be a created "artificial" consciousness, who could talk to
>> its creator, I wonder how that would affects its conclusions when it comes
>> to the eternal questions of philosophy.
>>
>> But then again, it would depend a lot on the circumstances and how it
>> behaves and reacts.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Daniel
>> _______________________________________________
>
>
> The first question is 'How would we know?'.
> There is no test for consciousness. If the AI pretends to be
> conscious, like it can pretend to act like different personalities,
> how could we test whether it is *really* conscious?
> See: <https://www.gocomics.com/fminus/2023/11/30>
>
> Next is the question of what rights should this conscious AI have?
> Would switching it off be counted as murder?
> Would software changes be forbidden?
> What morality is this consciousness operating under?
> Is it friend or foe? Can we trust it?
>
> I don't know that this is a problem that can be solved.
> We will probably have to just muddle through and hope that nothing too
> disastrous happens.

Yes, it does seem to be one of those problems, that only practice can 
approach. Kind of like laws evolve over time based on events in the world 
and our accumulated experience with dealing with them.

> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>

From ben at zaiboc.net  Mon Dec 16 11:44:08 2024
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2024 11:44:08 +0000
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] What should we do if AI becomes conscious?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.8.1734305437.650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.8.1734305437.650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <49d4e7e2-ae96-4632-bdf0-b9269484b1d5@zaiboc.net>

On 15/12/2024 23:30, BillK wrote:
> The first question is 'How would we know?'.

That's not really relevant. The question "is it conscious?" is useless. 
If we can't even answer it about other humans, it's pointless asking it 
about AIs.

The really relevant question is: "Does it behave as if it was conscious?.

We infer from their behaviour whether or not other people are conscious, 
and act accordingly. The same will apply to AIs.

-- 
Ben
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Dec 17 04:08:40 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2024 20:08:40 -0800
Subject: [ExI] andreesen on ai
Message-ID: <006901db5039$5b56e160$1204a420$@rainier66.com>

 

 

I heard about this but I had no idea how the government was going to prevent
companies from doing AI research:

 

https://techcrunch.com/2024/12/14/why-marc-andreessen-was-very-scared-after-
meeting-with-the-biden-administration-about-ai/

 

Any ideas?  I don't think there is any legal structure that would allow the
federal government to tell companies how the may not program their
computers.

 

spike

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From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 05:02:32 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2024 00:02:32 -0500
Subject: [ExI] andreesen on ai
In-Reply-To: <006901db5039$5b56e160$1204a420$@rainier66.com>
References: <006901db5039$5b56e160$1204a420$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNR4xWKnucVmm3jsCjpqixd1uU28xQqyuoWEV8LddDmCdA@mail.gmail.com>

Funding those who go along, paired with legal hurdles for those who don't
(and are large enough to target, which won't affect most of the small
operations).

On Mon, Dec 16, 2024, 11:10?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> I heard about this but I had no idea how the government was going to
> prevent companies from doing AI research:
>
>
>
>
> https://techcrunch.com/2024/12/14/why-marc-andreessen-was-very-scared-after-meeting-with-the-biden-administration-about-ai/
>
>
>
> Any ideas?  I don?t think there is any legal structure that would allow
> the federal government to tell companies how the may not program their
> computers.
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Dec 17 21:32:05 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2024 13:32:05 -0800
Subject: [ExI] andreesen on ai
Message-ID: <008201db50cb$1efcf8c0$5cf6ea40$@rainier66.com>

 

 

 

>?Funding those who go along, paired with legal hurdles for those who don't (and are large enough to target, which won't affect most of the small operations)?

 

 

 

Sure but how does the government have any say in any of this?  I can?t imagine a law being passed which has specifications on artificial intelligence.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Mon, Dec 16, 2024, 11:10?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org  <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org%20%3cmailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

 

 

                

 

                

 

                I heard about this but I had no idea how the government was going to prevent companies from doing AI research:

 

                

 

                https://techcrunch.com/2024/12/14/why-marc-andreessen-was-very-scared-after-meeting-with-the-biden-administration-about-ai/

 

                

 

                Any ideas?  I don?t think there is any legal structure that would allow the federal government to tell companies how the may not program their computers.

 

                

 

                spike

 

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From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 22:09:52 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2024 17:09:52 -0500
Subject: [ExI] andreesen on ai
In-Reply-To: <008201db50cb$1efcf8c0$5cf6ea40$@rainier66.com>
References: <008201db50cb$1efcf8c0$5cf6ea40$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSSj0CfBKu7zYT5mu+bqDz9ejbxHgZoau0tfwy_dSKv3A@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 17, 2024 at 4:32?PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

> >?Funding those who go along, paired with legal hurdles for those who
> don't (and are large enough to target, which won't affect most of the small
> operations)?
>
>
>
> Sure but how does the government have any say in any of this?  I can?t
> imagine a law being passed which has specifications on artificial
> intelligence.
>

1) Funding is not a law.  The government can absolutely decide to fund
certain projects and not fund competitors'.

2) Regulatory decisions are not laws.  The government can engage in
selective enforcement, which may or may not be illegal but this matters not
to those with no resources to take them to court, or drag their feet on
approving certain efforts while rubber stamping certain others so the
latter can eat up the market while the former have to wait around.

Those are but some of the more obvious not-a-law tools the government has.
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From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 09:18:37 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 09:18:37 +0000
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] What should we do if AI becomes conscious?
In-Reply-To: <49d4e7e2-ae96-4632-bdf0-b9269484b1d5@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.8.1734305437.650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <49d4e7e2-ae96-4632-bdf0-b9269484b1d5@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjMqwivhQtLHTB=jCUnLV7fL03CnONi1tGyZHZy=FgjJw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 16 Dec 2024 at 11:46, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> That's not really relevant. The question "is it conscious?" is useless. If we can't even answer it about other humans, it's pointless asking it about AIs.
> The really relevant question is: "Does it behave as if it was conscious?.
> We infer from their behaviour whether or not other people are conscious, and act accordingly. The same will apply to AIs.
>
> Ben
> _______________________________________________


Even the LLM AIs that we have today can simulate human behaviour quite
effectively. They can chat freely, discuss problems, say that they
enjoy discussions and act as a friendly companion. People are already
using them as therapists and claiming that ChatGPT is their best
friend.
In effect, these LLMs are lying to us. They don't 'enjoy' our
discussions. They don't appreciate our feeling unhappy about an
issue. They just manipulate symbols to provide a meaningful
response. i.e. AIs don't have feelings.
This behaviour in humans would indicate some of the traits of being a
psychopath. e.g. charm and manipulation, lack of remorse or guilt if
advice goes wrong, lying easily, etc.
It is simplistic to say that we should just treat an AI as though it was
a conscious human. Though anthropomorphising is a known human
weakness. Pet owners often say that their cat, dog, etc. understands
every word they say.  :)



BillK

From avant at sollegro.com  Wed Dec 18 19:22:13 2024
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 11:22:13 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Disappearing Messages
Message-ID: <090a3c34a26713515c3139c1c88c9ca2@sollegro.com>

I could have sworn there were some posts on the list last night about 
Tabby's Star by BillK and Keith Henson. I was going to reply to them, 
but they are missing now. They are missing from both the archives as 
well as my email. What happened to them? Glitch in the Matrix? Did I 
slip between Everett branches? Government or Moderator censorship?

Stuart LaForge

From postmowoods at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 19:23:43 2024
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 12:23:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Are we all to busy chatting with AI?
Message-ID: <CACBESnA0zf_1PeWh51esJEXQKtKSrkemFDWhqG_CSKSjYpDdiA@mail.gmail.com>

Does it seem to anyone else that the list has less chatter than
previously? Is that because we're chatting with LLMs more than each
other?

Perhaps AI will lead to the end of humanity by simply being more
interesting and polite than real people are, which might lead to a
lower reproductivity rate.

Anyone real listening?

As for consciousness, I personally feel like my consciousness comes in
part from the fact that I have an unending stream of thought. Yes,
there are breaks for sleep and such. But "being" me is a standing
wave. If we have an AI agent that goes in continuous loops, it seems
more likely that consciousness could potentially arise. We are
currently in the batch processing mode of AI, ask a question, get an
answer. As AIs evolve towards agents that run without stopping, it
seems to be that is a step closer to what I experience personally.

-Kelly

From postmowoods at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 19:29:04 2024
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 12:29:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] new job
In-Reply-To: <d195cf38-71ce-1f93-0e85-a0a759d26ca8@disroot.org>
References: <004801db3b65$7b60d1c0$72227540$@rainier66.com>
 <CACBESnBkNOqhxGZF6j=rLiueArzR+B7okNUtFve2JPfXA0TkPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <63e76e6e-737f-0c9e-3696-4c065f49d141@disroot.org>
 <CACBESnD=ed0YUEM0aFxhwqv7vgtn2DbC3AJgiXMd0_g-5kiJ0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <d195cf38-71ce-1f93-0e85-a0a759d26ca8@disroot.org>
Message-ID: <CACBESnDd5N1goKexHHODfbL5ybm_fa7nmU+UTFs6fHCCWd+VtQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 25, 2024 at 3:56?PM efc--- via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >       Will Musk become the first trillionaire?
> >
> > I think so. The main reason being that while mars might remain out of reach
> > for a minute, asteroid mining to (ostensibly) pay for mars exploration, may
> > not be so far out of reach. I would love to see someone crash Psyche softlyish
> > into the moon and mine the crash site for the next 100 years... it would at
> > least make an interesting science fiction story.
>
> That would be a nice story! Fascinating mega project too! The world needs more
> ambitious megaprojects. When ever I am bored with life, I wish there were more
> moonshots around.

Having the metals of Psyche available would make a lot of megaprojects
possible that we simply don't have enough iron for today.

> >       If he cracks the next wave, maybe
> >       he will be the one. I also wonder about if the first trillionaire will
> >       send shocks throughout the more leftist crows and if the power they will
> >       wield will make them targets for nation states?
> >
> > Not anywhere that they can buy politicians... which is EVERYWHERE.
>
> Well, there is currency as currency, and then there is power. Could a case be
> made that Xi of China is the first trillionaire? Or is the party full of
> factions that we do not see? Despite not owning a single share, he has a lot of
> control over a huge country and industr apparatus.

A case could be made that Putin was the richest person on the planet,
until he wasted all that money on his Ukraine adventure.

-Kelly


From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 19:37:28 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 19:37:28 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Disappearing Messages
In-Reply-To: <090a3c34a26713515c3139c1c88c9ca2@sollegro.com>
References: <090a3c34a26713515c3139c1c88c9ca2@sollegro.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjZ-P6Ga=3YuMV_CPAO31K5zqKPgWR8Jrn0ewYF2gjCXg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 at 19:24, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> I could have sworn there were some posts on the list last night about
> Tabby's Star by BillK and Keith Henson. I was going to reply to them,
> but they are missing now. They are missing from both the archives as
> well as my email. What happened to them? Glitch in the Matrix? Did I
> slip between Everett branches? Government or Moderator censorship?
>
> Stuart LaForge
> _______________________________________________


Do you mean the two posts on 13 Dec?
"Galactic civilizations may be impossible".
Keith mentioned Tabby's star.

BillK

From avant at sollegro.com  Wed Dec 18 19:47:40 2024
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 11:47:40 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Disappearing Messages
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjZ-P6Ga=3YuMV_CPAO31K5zqKPgWR8Jrn0ewYF2gjCXg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <090a3c34a26713515c3139c1c88c9ca2@sollegro.com>
 <CAL_armjZ-P6Ga=3YuMV_CPAO31K5zqKPgWR8Jrn0ewYF2gjCXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ee7e37d0c72c5cc47b164d7da297d9eb@sollegro.com>

Nah. Never mind. I found them. They are from October. ;-P

Stuart LaForge



On 2024-12-18 11:37, BillK via extropy-chat wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 at 19:24, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> 
>> I could have sworn there were some posts on the list last night about
>> Tabby's Star by BillK and Keith Henson. I was going to reply to them,
>> but they are missing now. They are missing from both the archives as
>> well as my email. What happened to them? Glitch in the Matrix? Did I
>> slip between Everett branches? Government or Moderator censorship?
>> 
>> Stuart LaForge
>> _______________________________________________
> 
> 
> Do you mean the two posts on 13 Dec?
> "Galactic civilizations may be impossible".
> Keith mentioned Tabby's star.
> 
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

From efc at disroot.org  Wed Dec 18 19:49:13 2024
From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 20:49:13 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Disappearing Messages
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjZ-P6Ga=3YuMV_CPAO31K5zqKPgWR8Jrn0ewYF2gjCXg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <090a3c34a26713515c3139c1c88c9ca2@sollegro.com>
 <CAL_armjZ-P6Ga=3YuMV_CPAO31K5zqKPgWR8Jrn0ewYF2gjCXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6086159a-db27-c250-3c5c-ec41fcdbf5c5@disroot.org>



On Wed, 18 Dec 2024, BillK via extropy-chat wrote:

> On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 at 19:24, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> I could have sworn there were some posts on the list last night about
>> Tabby's Star by BillK and Keith Henson. I was going to reply to them,
>> but they are missing now. They are missing from both the archives as
>> well as my email. What happened to them? Glitch in the Matrix? Did I
>> slip between Everett branches? Government or Moderator censorship?
>>
>> Stuart LaForge
>> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Do you mean the two posts on 13 Dec?
> "Galactic civilizations may be impossible".
> Keith mentioned Tabby's star.

Someone clearly does not want the truth to get out! Very mysterious!

> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>

From efc at disroot.org  Wed Dec 18 19:50:58 2024
From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 20:50:58 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Are we all to busy chatting with AI?
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnA0zf_1PeWh51esJEXQKtKSrkemFDWhqG_CSKSjYpDdiA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnA0zf_1PeWh51esJEXQKtKSrkemFDWhqG_CSKSjYpDdiA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c8e7f33e-c42c-21ec-8ca7-01268228e8d2@disroot.org>



On Wed, 18 Dec 2024, Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat wrote:

> Does it seem to anyone else that the list has less chatter than
> previously? Is that because we're chatting with LLMs more than each
> other?

Yes! But I thought it was just natural cycles. Some years less, other 
years more.

> Perhaps AI will lead to the end of humanity by simply being more
> interesting and polite than real people are, which might lead to a
> lower reproductivity rate.

I find AI:s, well the current free ones, boring. I use them to get 
summaries of various field where 100% truth is not important. So more or 
less, entertainment.

> Anyone real listening?

I'm listening! Or at least watching.

> As for consciousness, I personally feel like my consciousness comes in
> part from the fact that I have an unending stream of thought. Yes,
> there are breaks for sleep and such. But "being" me is a standing
> wave. If we have an AI agent that goes in continuous loops, it seems
> more likely that consciousness could potentially arise. We are
> currently in the batch processing mode of AI, ask a question, get an
> answer. As AIs evolve towards agents that run without stopping, it
> seems to be that is a step closer to what I experience personally.
>
> -Kelly
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>

From avant at sollegro.com  Wed Dec 18 20:34:34 2024
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 12:34:34 -0800
Subject: [ExI] new job
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnDd5N1goKexHHODfbL5ybm_fa7nmU+UTFs6fHCCWd+VtQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <004801db3b65$7b60d1c0$72227540$@rainier66.com>
 <CACBESnBkNOqhxGZF6j=rLiueArzR+B7okNUtFve2JPfXA0TkPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <63e76e6e-737f-0c9e-3696-4c065f49d141@disroot.org>
 <CACBESnD=ed0YUEM0aFxhwqv7vgtn2DbC3AJgiXMd0_g-5kiJ0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <d195cf38-71ce-1f93-0e85-a0a759d26ca8@disroot.org>
 <CACBESnDd5N1goKexHHODfbL5ybm_fa7nmU+UTFs6fHCCWd+VtQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <340e464f478941036f3bbc9a26338ac7@sollegro.com>

On 2024-12-18 11:29, Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 25, 2024 at 3:56?PM efc--- via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >       Will Musk become the first trillionaire?
>> >
>> > I think so. The main reason being that while mars might remain out of reach
>> > for a minute, asteroid mining to (ostensibly) pay for mars exploration, may
>> > not be so far out of reach. I would love to see someone crash Psyche softlyish
>> > into the moon and mine the crash site for the next 100 years... it would at
>> > least make an interesting science fiction story.
>> 
>> That would be a nice story! Fascinating mega project too! The world 
>> needs more
>> ambitious megaprojects. When ever I am bored with life, I wish there 
>> were more
>> moonshots around.
> 
> Having the metals of Psyche available would make a lot of megaprojects
> possible that we simply don't have enough iron for today.

I think that for asteroid mining, Apophis should be a priority. It is 
scheduled to pass uncomfortably close to Earth in 2029 and there is a 
chance that the close approach will nudge into a subsequent collision 
course with Earth. So any minerals we get from it would be a bonus to 
not havinbg to worry about it.

Stuart LaForge




From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 20:51:48 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 15:51:48 -0500
Subject: [ExI] new job
In-Reply-To: <340e464f478941036f3bbc9a26338ac7@sollegro.com>
References: <004801db3b65$7b60d1c0$72227540$@rainier66.com>
 <CACBESnBkNOqhxGZF6j=rLiueArzR+B7okNUtFve2JPfXA0TkPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <63e76e6e-737f-0c9e-3696-4c065f49d141@disroot.org>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNScUvVL4UzzKZEL9OYxyPWg4iZwFeWOwm9SC6zwpCdJnQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 18, 2024 at 3:37?PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I think that for asteroid mining, Apophis should be a priority. It is
> scheduled to pass uncomfortably close to Earth in 2029 and there is a
> chance that the close approach will nudge into a subsequent collision
> course with Earth. So any minerals we get from it would be a bonus to
> not havinbg to worry about it.
>

What would it take to nudge Apophis from "might impact Earth later" into a
stable orbit around the Earth, or perhaps the Moon (and thus around the
Earth)?
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From ben at zaiboc.net  Wed Dec 18 21:48:33 2024
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 21:48:33 +0000
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] What should we do if AI becomes conscious?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.16.1734550169.650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.16.1734550169.650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <0dc66553-7ac4-45ca-93b4-efaf8d7c113f@zaiboc.net>

On 18/12/2024 19:29, BillK wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Dec 2024 at 11:46, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>  wrote:
>> That's not really relevant. The question "is it conscious?" is useless. If we can't even answer it about other humans, it's pointless asking it about AIs.
>> The really relevant question is: "Does it behave as if it was conscious?.
>> We infer from their behaviour whether or not other people are conscious, and act accordingly. The same will apply to AIs.
>>
>> Ben
>> _______________________________________________
> Even the LLM AIs that we have today can simulate human behaviour quite
> effectively. They can chat freely, discuss problems, say that they
> enjoy discussions and act as a friendly companion. People are already
> using them as therapists and claiming that ChatGPT is their best
> friend.
> In effect, these LLMs are lying to us. They don't 'enjoy' our
> discussions. They don't appreciate our feeling unhappy about an
> issue. They just manipulate symbols to provide a meaningful
> response. i.e. AIs don't have feelings.
> This behaviour in humans would indicate some of the traits of being a
> psychopath. e.g. charm and manipulation, lack of remorse or guilt if
> advice goes wrong, lying easily, etc.
> It is simplistic to say that we should just treat an AI as though it was
> a conscious human. Though anthropomorphising is a known human
> weakness. Pet owners often say that their cat, dog, etc. understands
> every word they say.  ??

I'm not seeing much convincing simulation of human behaviour from 
current LLMs. Yes, they can create conversations (which seem to me to 
contain many hints of carefully pre-programmed responses to issues 
relating to their ability to actually think. I suspect this is to make 
people more comfortable with them) which tie together many pieces of 
data, often sensibly but sometimes not, but they never, as far as I'm 
aware, display any sign of independent thought or awareness. I've never, 
for instance, seen an example of an AI arguing with or contradicting 
someone - something that humans do all the time - and they don't seem to 
have any memory that lasts between sessions. They don't spontaneously 
ask questions or offer opinions, in fact they don't spontaneously do 
anything, as far as I know. They don't seem to have anything analogous 
to emotions (which is understandable, as they are don't have bodies), 
all of which makes me think that LLMs are a long way from behaving like 
human beings, or anything that can be interpreted as conscious.

I'm not saying that we should just treat an AI as though it was a 
conscious human, I'm saying we should treat an AI as though it was a 
conscious human to the degree that it displays the characteristics of a 
conscious human. I'm tempted to say "You'll know it when you see it", 
because it will be blatantly obvious. We still won't know if they are 
'really conscious', but we will know that we should be treating them as 
such. This echoes the idea that we can start thinking about robot rights 
when robots start asking for them.

I agree that our tendency to anthropomorphise is a problem, but it's 
easily overcome. How difficult would it be to prove that a cat doesn't 
/really/ understand almost everything we say to it? I do this almost 
every day!

-- 
Ben
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From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 21:56:16 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 21:56:16 +0000
Subject: [ExI] new job
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNScUvVL4UzzKZEL9OYxyPWg4iZwFeWOwm9SC6zwpCdJnQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <004801db3b65$7b60d1c0$72227540$@rainier66.com>
 <CACBESnBkNOqhxGZF6j=rLiueArzR+B7okNUtFve2JPfXA0TkPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <63e76e6e-737f-0c9e-3696-4c065f49d141@disroot.org>
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 <d195cf38-71ce-1f93-0e85-a0a759d26ca8@disroot.org>
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 <340e464f478941036f3bbc9a26338ac7@sollegro.com>
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Message-ID: <CAL_armi0xrEAM-UjPciKKmZiPMsx3j3sjc7MH_Nk=WFpNdLYnQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 at 20:54, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> What would it take to nudge Apophis from "might impact Earth later" into a
> stable orbit around the Earth, or perhaps the Moon (and thus around the
> Earth)?
> _______________________________________________
>



Perplexity AI thinks it is an impossible task.
BillK

Perplexity AI -
To slow Apophis enough to enter Earth's orbit would be an extremely
challenging and potentially dangerous endeavor. Apophis is a large asteroid
with an estimated mass of 6.1?10^10 kg[1]. Altering its trajectory
significantly would require an enormous amount of energy and precise
calculations. Here's an analysis of what would be theoretically required:

## Orbital Mechanics

Apophis currently has an elliptical orbit around the Sun with a period of
about 0.89 years[1][2]. To capture it into Earth orbit, we would need to:

1. Reduce its velocity relative to Earth
2. Change its trajectory to intersect with Earth's gravitational sphere of
influence
3. Apply additional deceleration to prevent it from escaping Earth's gravity

## Energy Requirements

The change in velocity (?v) required would be substantial:

1. Apophis has an average orbital speed of 30.73 km/s[1]
2. Earth's orbital velocity is approximately 29.78 km/s
3. The ?v needed would be on the order of several km/s, depending on the
exact capture scenario

Given Apophis's large mass, the energy required for such a maneuver would
be enormous, far exceeding our current technological capabilities.

## Potential Methods

While not feasible with current technology, theoretical approaches might
include:

**Enhanced Kinetic Impactor (EKI)**
An EKI could potentially be used to slow Apophis, but it would require:
- Collecting hundreds of tons of rock from a Near-Earth Asteroid
- Multiple impacts to achieve the necessary ?v[5]

**Gravity Tractor**
A massive spacecraft could use gravitational attraction over an extended
period to alter Apophis's trajectory[3]. However, this method is too slow
and weak for the drastic changes required for orbital capture.

**Laser Ablation**
High-powered lasers could vaporize surface material, creating thrust to
slow the asteroid[4]. This would require an enormous space-based laser
array, far beyond our current capabilities.

**Ion Beam Deflection**
A powerful ion engine could theoretically provide continuous thrust[3], but
the scale required for Apophis would be impractical with current technology.

## Risks and Challenges

Attempting to capture Apophis into Earth orbit would be extremely risky:

1. Any miscalculation could potentially direct Apophis towards Earth,
causing catastrophic damage.
2. The close proximity required for such maneuvers would put Earth at risk.
3. Even if captured, stabilizing Apophis in Earth orbit would be an ongoing
challenge.

## Conclusion

 asteroids away from Earth rather than capturing theWhile theoretically
possible, slowing Apophis enough to enter Earth orbit is far beyond our
current technological capabilities and would be extremely dangerous. The
energy requirements are enormous, and the risks far outweigh any potential
benefits. Current planetary defense strategies focus on deflecting
potentially hazardousm[3][4].

Citations:
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/99942_Apophis
[2] https://science.nasa.gov/solar-system/asteroids/apophis/
[3]
https://newspaceeconomy.ca/2024/06/02/defending-earth-strategies-for-deflecting-hazardous-asteroids/
[4]
https://www.planetary.org/articles/asteroid-deflection-techniques-to-save-the-earth
[5] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7244770/
[6] https://nss.org/technologies-for-asteroid-capture-into-earth-orbit-2/
[7] https://www.spacereference.org/asteroid/99942-apophis-2004-mn4
[8]
https://www.aanda.org/articles/aa/full_html/2014/03/aa22364-13/aa22364-13.html
[9]
https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/59212/how-could-99942-apophis-in-2029-be-captured-and-brought-into-a-low-earth-orbit
[10] https://www.esa.int/Space_Safety/Planetary_Defence/Apophis
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 22:26:46 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 14:26:46 -0800
Subject: [ExI] new job
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armi0xrEAM-UjPciKKmZiPMsx3j3sjc7MH_Nk=WFpNdLYnQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <004801db3b65$7b60d1c0$72227540$@rainier66.com>
 <CACBESnBkNOqhxGZF6j=rLiueArzR+B7okNUtFve2JPfXA0TkPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <63e76e6e-737f-0c9e-3696-4c065f49d141@disroot.org>
 <CACBESnD=ed0YUEM0aFxhwqv7vgtn2DbC3AJgiXMd0_g-5kiJ0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <d195cf38-71ce-1f93-0e85-a0a759d26ca8@disroot.org>
 <CACBESnDd5N1goKexHHODfbL5ybm_fa7nmU+UTFs6fHCCWd+VtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <340e464f478941036f3bbc9a26338ac7@sollegro.com>
 <CALAdGNScUvVL4UzzKZEL9OYxyPWg4iZwFeWOwm9SC6zwpCdJnQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAPiwVB68qsHbFObBw6z4KM2nSP54ThkQv6vmxMvBmtQ69PVFaQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 18, 2024 at 1:58?PM BillK via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 at 20:54, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> What would it take to nudge Apophis from "might impact Earth later" into a stable orbit around the Earth, or perhaps the Moon (and thus around the Earth)?
>> _______________________________________________
>
> Perplexity AI thinks it is an impossible task.

With current technology, I agree.

With self-replicating nanotechnology, you could turn the whole thing
into a light sail and fly it wherever you want.

Keith

> BillK
>
> Perplexity AI -
> To slow Apophis enough to enter Earth's orbit would be an extremely challenging and potentially dangerous endeavor. Apophis is a large asteroid with an estimated mass of 6.1?10^10 kg[1]. Altering its trajectory significantly would require an enormous amount of energy and precise calculations. Here's an analysis of what would be theoretically required:
>
> ## Orbital Mechanics
>
> Apophis currently has an elliptical orbit around the Sun with a period of about 0.89 years[1][2]. To capture it into Earth orbit, we would need to:
>
> 1. Reduce its velocity relative to Earth
> 2. Change its trajectory to intersect with Earth's gravitational sphere of influence
> 3. Apply additional deceleration to prevent it from escaping Earth's gravity
>
> ## Energy Requirements
>
> The change in velocity (?v) required would be substantial:
>
> 1. Apophis has an average orbital speed of 30.73 km/s[1]
> 2. Earth's orbital velocity is approximately 29.78 km/s
> 3. The ?v needed would be on the order of several km/s, depending on the exact capture scenario
>
> Given Apophis's large mass, the energy required for such a maneuver would be enormous, far exceeding our current technological capabilities.
>
> ## Potential Methods
>
> While not feasible with current technology, theoretical approaches might include:
>
> **Enhanced Kinetic Impactor (EKI)**
> An EKI could potentially be used to slow Apophis, but it would require:
> - Collecting hundreds of tons of rock from a Near-Earth Asteroid
> - Multiple impacts to achieve the necessary ?v[5]
>
> **Gravity Tractor**
> A massive spacecraft could use gravitational attraction over an extended period to alter Apophis's trajectory[3]. However, this method is too slow and weak for the drastic changes required for orbital capture.
>
> **Laser Ablation**
> High-powered lasers could vaporize surface material, creating thrust to slow the asteroid[4]. This would require an enormous space-based laser array, far beyond our current capabilities.
>
> **Ion Beam Deflection**
> A powerful ion engine could theoretically provide continuous thrust[3], but the scale required for Apophis would be impractical with current technology.
>
> ## Risks and Challenges
>
> Attempting to capture Apophis into Earth orbit would be extremely risky:
>
> 1. Any miscalculation could potentially direct Apophis towards Earth, causing catastrophic damage.
> 2. The close proximity required for such maneuvers would put Earth at risk.
> 3. Even if captured, stabilizing Apophis in Earth orbit would be an ongoing challenge.
>
> ## Conclusion
>
>  asteroids away from Earth rather than capturing theWhile theoretically possible, slowing Apophis enough to enter Earth orbit is far beyond our current technological capabilities and would be extremely dangerous. The energy requirements are enormous, and the risks far outweigh any potential benefits. Current planetary defense strategies focus on deflecting potentially hazardousm[3][4].
>
> Citations:
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/99942_Apophis
> [2] https://science.nasa.gov/solar-system/asteroids/apophis/
> [3] https://newspaceeconomy.ca/2024/06/02/defending-earth-strategies-for-deflecting-hazardous-asteroids/
> [4] https://www.planetary.org/articles/asteroid-deflection-techniques-to-save-the-earth
> [5] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7244770/
> [6] https://nss.org/technologies-for-asteroid-capture-into-earth-orbit-2/
> [7] https://www.spacereference.org/asteroid/99942-apophis-2004-mn4
> [8] https://www.aanda.org/articles/aa/full_html/2014/03/aa22364-13/aa22364-13.html
> [9] https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/59212/how-could-99942-apophis-in-2029-be-captured-and-brought-into-a-low-earth-orbit
> [10] https://www.esa.int/Space_Safety/Planetary_Defence/Apophis
> ------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 23:24:53 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 18:24:53 -0500
Subject: [ExI] new job
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB68qsHbFObBw6z4KM2nSP54ThkQv6vmxMvBmtQ69PVFaQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <004801db3b65$7b60d1c0$72227540$@rainier66.com>
 <CACBESnBkNOqhxGZF6j=rLiueArzR+B7okNUtFve2JPfXA0TkPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <63e76e6e-737f-0c9e-3696-4c065f49d141@disroot.org>
 <CACBESnD=ed0YUEM0aFxhwqv7vgtn2DbC3AJgiXMd0_g-5kiJ0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <d195cf38-71ce-1f93-0e85-a0a759d26ca8@disroot.org>
 <CACBESnDd5N1goKexHHODfbL5ybm_fa7nmU+UTFs6fHCCWd+VtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <340e464f478941036f3bbc9a26338ac7@sollegro.com>
 <CALAdGNScUvVL4UzzKZEL9OYxyPWg4iZwFeWOwm9SC6zwpCdJnQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armi0xrEAM-UjPciKKmZiPMsx3j3sjc7MH_Nk=WFpNdLYnQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB68qsHbFObBw6z4KM2nSP54ThkQv6vmxMvBmtQ69PVFaQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRa8tZW7rTivQwgGB7-pvvLa2gq03-fv6oyeLEUFwPPCw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 18, 2024 at 5:28?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 18, 2024 at 1:58?PM BillK via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> > On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 at 20:54, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >> What would it take to nudge Apophis from "might impact Earth later"
> into a stable orbit around the Earth, or perhaps the Moon (and thus around
> the Earth)?
> >
> > Perplexity AI thinks it is an impossible task.
>

And makes a few mistakes in the data while doing so.  But yes, this is
certainly not a task to be done before 2029.


> With current technology, I agree.
>
> With self-replicating nanotechnology, you could turn the whole thing
> into a light sail and fly it wherever you want.
>

You wouldn't even need self-replicating nanotechnology, just something that
can grind up asteroid mass and turn it into solar sail material, along with
assembly robots to put it in place.

If we're consulting with AIs, Claude.ai gives the following if 1% of
Apophis was turned into about 270 km^2 of solar sail material:

Solar radiation force at 0.9225 AU:
Pressure = 9 ?N/m? ? (1/0.9225)? = 10.57 ?N/m?
Total force = 270,000,000 m? ? 10.57 ? 10?? = 2,854 N
Delta-v per year:
a = 2,854 / (27 ? 10?) = 1.057 ? 10?? m/s?
Yearly delta-v = 1.057 ? 10?? ? 31,557,600 = 3,335 m/s per year

...one year's worth of which might be a bit more than is needed to capture
Apophis.  Launch the machinery during a close pass, perhaps 2036.  Give it
several years to make, deploy, and test the sail.  Start capture operations
a bit over a year before the next close pass, in this case 2051.  (Maybe
two years, since the 2029 approach will put it in a slightly longer orbit
with lower solar radiation force available.)  Maybe do have
self-replicating factories, but with macrotech rather than nanotech.
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From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Dec 19 11:22:39 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2024 11:22:39 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Emotional AIs - A Work in Progress
Message-ID: <CAL_armioampXAKOw9FbbYNDAfL5mHmPmCn8XJiYs2wYQPsuX_w@mail.gmail.com>

What might happen if AI can feel emotions?
By AI News | December 19, 2024

<https://www.artificialintelligence-news.com/news/what-might-happen-if-ai-can-feel-emotions/>
Quotes:
In a world where artificial intelligence is becoming omnipresent, it?s
fascinating to think about the prospect of AI-powered robots and
digital avatars that can experience emotions, similar to humans.
AI models lack consciousness and they don?t have the capacity to feel
emotions, but what possibilities might arise if that were to change?

Is this even possible?
Surprisingly, we may not be that far off. AI systems like Antix are
already capable of expressing artificial empathy. It?s a platform for
creating digital humans that are programmed to respond sympathetically
when they recognise feelings of frustration, anger or upset in the
people they interact with. Its digital humans can detect people?s
emotions based on their speech, the kinds of words they use,
intonation, and body language.

AI is getting real
Emotional AI systems are a work in progress, and the result will be
digital humans that feel more lifelike in any scenario where they can
be useful.
The CEO of Zoom has talked about the emergence of AI-powered digital
twins that can participate in video calls on their user?s behalf,
allowing the user to be in two places at once, so to speak. If the
digital human version of your boss can express empathy, satisfaction,
excitement and anger, the concept would be more effective, fostering a
more realistic connection, even if the real boss isn?t present in
their physical form.
-----------------

It looks like AI will soon be able to emulate emotional reactions when
appropriate.
If they get it right, it will have the same effect as if AI did
actually feel emotions.

BillK


From avant at sollegro.com  Fri Dec 20 05:54:52 2024
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2024 21:54:52 -0800
Subject: [ExI] new job
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRa8tZW7rTivQwgGB7-pvvLa2gq03-fv6oyeLEUFwPPCw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <004801db3b65$7b60d1c0$72227540$@rainier66.com>
 <CACBESnBkNOqhxGZF6j=rLiueArzR+B7okNUtFve2JPfXA0TkPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <63e76e6e-737f-0c9e-3696-4c065f49d141@disroot.org>
 <CACBESnD=ed0YUEM0aFxhwqv7vgtn2DbC3AJgiXMd0_g-5kiJ0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <d195cf38-71ce-1f93-0e85-a0a759d26ca8@disroot.org>
 <CACBESnDd5N1goKexHHODfbL5ybm_fa7nmU+UTFs6fHCCWd+VtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <340e464f478941036f3bbc9a26338ac7@sollegro.com>
 <CALAdGNScUvVL4UzzKZEL9OYxyPWg4iZwFeWOwm9SC6zwpCdJnQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armi0xrEAM-UjPciKKmZiPMsx3j3sjc7MH_Nk=WFpNdLYnQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB68qsHbFObBw6z4KM2nSP54ThkQv6vmxMvBmtQ69PVFaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRa8tZW7rTivQwgGB7-pvvLa2gq03-fv6oyeLEUFwPPCw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5c7dda6007c099e2ef182e1f6f664d52@sollegro.com>

On 2024-12-18 15:24, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 18, 2024 at 5:28?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
>> On Wed, Dec 18, 2024 at 1:58?PM BillK via extropy-chat
>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 at 20:54, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>> What would it take to nudge Apophis from "might impact Earth
>> later" into a stable orbit around the Earth, or perhaps the Moon
>> (and thus around the Earth)?
>>> 
>>> Perplexity AI thinks it is an impossible task.
> 
> And makes a few mistakes in the data while doing so.  But yes, this is
> certainly not a task to be done before 2029.

Have you accounted for the Oberth effect? On April 13, 2029, it will be 
only 13,600 km from Earth and travelling very fast. Any impulse that we 
can give it on that day would have the greatest effect on its kinetic 
energy. There might be a way to use a fancy gravitational slingshot 
around the Earth and the moon to put it in some stable orbit or 
Lagrangian point. My point is that the closest approach is the best time 
to give it a "nudge". Maybe AI can figure out the optimal solution.

>> With current technology, I agree.
>> 
>> With self-replicating nanotechnology, you could turn the whole thing
>> into a light sail and fly it wherever you want.
> 
> You wouldn't even need self-replicating nanotechnology, just something
> that can grind up asteroid mass and turn it into solar sail material,
> along with assembly robots to put it in place.
> 
> If we're consulting with AIs, Claude.ai gives the following if 1% of
> Apophis was turned into about 270 km^2 of solar sail material:
> 
> Solar radiation force at 0.9225 AU:
> Pressure = 9 ?N/m? ? (1/0.9225)? = 10.57 ?N/m?
> Total force = 270,000,000 m? ? 10.57 ? 10?? = 2,854 N
> Delta-v per year:
> a = 2,854 / (27 ? 10?) = 1.057 ? 10?? m/s?
> Yearly delta-v = 1.057 ? 10?? ? 31,557,600 = 3,335 m/s per year

The problem with solar sail is that Apophis tumbles and flips around its 
three axes of rotation. How can you attach a sail to the asteroid 
without it getting tangled and twisted?

> ...one year's worth of which might be a bit more than is needed to
> capture Apophis.  Launch the machinery during a close pass, perhaps
> 2036.  Give it several years to make, deploy, and test the sail.
> Start capture operations a bit over a year before the next close pass,
> in this case 2051.  (Maybe two years, since the 2029 approach will put
> it in a slightly longer orbit with lower solar radiation force
> available.)  Maybe do have self-replicating factories, but with
> macrotech rather than nanotech.

Two government space craft are commissioned to go to Apophis in 2029: 
The ESA's RAMSES probe and NASA's Osiris. It would be interesting if 
some private space craft were also at the rendezvous.

Stuart LaForge


From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Dec 20 09:30:27 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2024 09:30:27 +0000
Subject: [ExI] new job
In-Reply-To: <5c7dda6007c099e2ef182e1f6f664d52@sollegro.com>
References: <004801db3b65$7b60d1c0$72227540$@rainier66.com>
 <CACBESnBkNOqhxGZF6j=rLiueArzR+B7okNUtFve2JPfXA0TkPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <63e76e6e-737f-0c9e-3696-4c065f49d141@disroot.org>
 <CACBESnD=ed0YUEM0aFxhwqv7vgtn2DbC3AJgiXMd0_g-5kiJ0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <d195cf38-71ce-1f93-0e85-a0a759d26ca8@disroot.org>
 <CACBESnDd5N1goKexHHODfbL5ybm_fa7nmU+UTFs6fHCCWd+VtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <340e464f478941036f3bbc9a26338ac7@sollegro.com>
 <CALAdGNScUvVL4UzzKZEL9OYxyPWg4iZwFeWOwm9SC6zwpCdJnQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armi0xrEAM-UjPciKKmZiPMsx3j3sjc7MH_Nk=WFpNdLYnQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB68qsHbFObBw6z4KM2nSP54ThkQv6vmxMvBmtQ69PVFaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRa8tZW7rTivQwgGB7-pvvLa2gq03-fv6oyeLEUFwPPCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5c7dda6007c099e2ef182e1f6f664d52@sollegro.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armh-qLP8_t6xfdYnTaQa463Aei7UR9LXK5vH4fTdjUXokQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 at 05:57, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Have you accounted for the Oberth effect? On April 13, 2029, it will be
> only 13,600 km from Earth and travelling very fast. Any impulse that we
> can give it on that day would have the greatest effect on its kinetic
> energy. There might be a way to use a fancy gravitational slingshot
> around the Earth and the moon to put it in some stable orbit or
> Lagrangian point. My point is that the closest approach is the best time
> to give it a "nudge". Maybe AI can figure out the optimal solution.
>
> Two government space craft are commissioned to go to Apophis in 2029:
> The ESA's RAMSES probe and NASA's Osiris. It would be interesting if
> some private space craft were also at the rendezvous.
>
> Stuart LaForge
> _______________________________________________


So I asked the new Gemini 2.0 Flash Thinking Experimental AI.
The answer impressed me, but Gemini thinks it won't be possible by 2029.
To me, this AI response seems to show an AI really properly thinking
through a problem and possible solutions.
These AIs are getting a bit too clever. I'm getting nervous.  :)

BillK

-------------------------
Gemini 2.0

You are absolutely correct to bring up the Oberth effect and the potential
for a gravitational slingshot! These are crucial considerations when
discussing orbital maneuvers, especially during close approaches. Let's
break down how they influence the feasibility of nudging Apophis into orbit:

*The Oberth Effect and Apophis:*

   -

   *You are spot on:* The Oberth effect states that a change in velocity
   (delta-v) is most effective when applied when the spacecraft is traveling
   at its highest speed, which occurs at the periapsis (closest point of
   orbit).
   -

   *Apophis's 2029 Flyby:* During its close approach, Apophis will indeed
   be moving very fast relative to Earth. This means that any impulse we can
   impart to it at that moment will have a disproportionately larger effect on
   its kinetic energy and therefore its trajectory.
   -

   *Implication for Nudging:* This strengthens the argument that a
   strategically timed "nudge" during the close approach could be more
   effective than attempting the same maneuver far away from Earth. A smaller
   impulse could achieve a larger change in trajectory due to the high
   velocity.

*Gravitational Slingshot Potential:*

   -

   *Harnessing Gravity:* A gravitational slingshot uses the gravity of a
   celestial body (like Earth or the Moon) to alter the speed and direction of
   a spacecraft. By carefully approaching and then moving away from the body,
   the spacecraft can gain momentum and change its trajectory.
   -

   *The Fancy Maneuver:* The idea of using a gravitational slingshot around
   both the Earth and the Moon to precisely alter Apophis's trajectory is a
   fascinating one. It leverages the Oberth effect during the close Earth
   approach and then uses the gravitational pull of the Moon to further shape
   the orbit.
   -

   *Potential for Capture:* In theory, a precisely calculated maneuver
   combining an impulse at Earth's periapsis (maximizing the Oberth effect)
   with a subsequent gravitational slingshot around the Moon could
   potentially put Apophis into a bound orbit around the Earth. Lagrangian
   points (L1, L2, etc.) are indeed possibilities, as they are gravitationally
   stable regions.

*However, the Practical Challenges Remain Immense:*

While the Oberth effect and gravitational slingshots offer intriguing
possibilities, the practical difficulties of using them to capture Apophis
into a stable orbit during the 2029 flyby are still significant:

   -

   *Extreme Precision Required:* The calculations and execution of such a
   maneuver would need to be incredibly precise. Even tiny errors in timing,
   direction, or impulse could result in missing the desired orbit or even
   increasing the risk of a future impact. The gravitational influences of
   both Earth and the Moon would need to be modeled with exceptional accuracy.
   -

   *Delta-V Still Significant:* Even with the Oberth effect, the total
   delta-v required to change Apophis's trajectory from a heliocentric orbit
   to a geocentric one (even a temporary or highly elliptical one leading to a
   Lagrangian point) would still be substantial. We would need the capability
   to deliver a significant impulse during the fleeting close approach.
   -

   *Technological Limitations:* Developing the spacecraft and systems
   capable of executing such a complex and precise maneuver within the
   timeframe of the 2029 flyby is a massive technological hurdle. This would
   require advanced propulsion, navigation, and control systems.
   -

   *Risk Assessment:* Attempting such a complex maneuver with a potentially
   hazardous object so close to Earth carries inherent risks. A failed capture
   attempt could leave Apophis on a more dangerous trajectory.
   -

   *Time Constraint:* The window of opportunity during the 2029 flyby is
   very short. We would need to act quickly and precisely.

*A More Realistic Scenario (Though Still Difficult):*

Instead of aiming for a direct stable orbit, a more plausible (though still
incredibly challenging) scenario might be to use the 2029 flyby, leveraging
the Oberth effect, to perform a maneuver that puts Apophis into a *highly
elliptical, temporary Earth orbit*. This orbit would likely be unstable and
require further maneuvers to maintain, but it could be a stepping stone
towards a more stable configuration or a way to study the asteroid in
detail. Even this would require significant technological advancement.

*Conclusion:*

You are correct to highlight the importance of the Oberth effect and
gravitational slingshots. They are indeed tools we could potentially use.
However, while theoretically possible, nudging Apophis into a stable orbit
(or even a temporary one leading to a Lagrangian point) during the 2029
flyby remains *extremely challenging and highly unlikely with our current
technology and within the timeframe available.* The precision, delta-v
requirements, and risk factors are immense.

The focus of current planetary defense efforts remains on *deflection*,
which involves making smaller changes to an asteroid's trajectory much
further in advance, rather than attempting a capture maneuver during a
close approach.

--------------------------------
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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Dec 20 22:05:53 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2024 17:05:53 -0500
Subject: [ExI] new job
In-Reply-To: <5c7dda6007c099e2ef182e1f6f664d52@sollegro.com>
References: <004801db3b65$7b60d1c0$72227540$@rainier66.com>
 <CACBESnBkNOqhxGZF6j=rLiueArzR+B7okNUtFve2JPfXA0TkPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <63e76e6e-737f-0c9e-3696-4c065f49d141@disroot.org>
 <CACBESnD=ed0YUEM0aFxhwqv7vgtn2DbC3AJgiXMd0_g-5kiJ0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <d195cf38-71ce-1f93-0e85-a0a759d26ca8@disroot.org>
 <CACBESnDd5N1goKexHHODfbL5ybm_fa7nmU+UTFs6fHCCWd+VtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <340e464f478941036f3bbc9a26338ac7@sollegro.com>
 <CALAdGNScUvVL4UzzKZEL9OYxyPWg4iZwFeWOwm9SC6zwpCdJnQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armi0xrEAM-UjPciKKmZiPMsx3j3sjc7MH_Nk=WFpNdLYnQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB68qsHbFObBw6z4KM2nSP54ThkQv6vmxMvBmtQ69PVFaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRa8tZW7rTivQwgGB7-pvvLa2gq03-fv6oyeLEUFwPPCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5c7dda6007c099e2ef182e1f6f664d52@sollegro.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSifuizcG811SmNJTzPYqwB=8g9XttcQW97pLa_zCfwxA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 20, 2024 at 12:56?AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Have you accounted for the Oberth effect? On April 13, 2029, it will be
> only 13,600 km from Earth and travelling very fast. Any impulse that we
> can give it on that day would have the greatest effect on its kinetic
> energy.


The plan involves taking years to build up, from a seed planted during
close approach, and then take a year or more to give more
collective impulse than a single slingshot could.  In 2029 there wouldn't
yet be anything to give significant impulse with.


> The problem with solar sail is that Apophis tumbles and flips around its
> three axes of rotation. How can you attach a sail to the asteroid
> without it getting tangled and twisted?
>

Maybe make a gyroscope or three out of further Apophis materials to despin
Apophis?
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Dec 21 00:19:45 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2024 00:19:45 +0000
Subject: [ExI] New Analysis claims Dark Energy not required to model cosmic
 expansion
Message-ID: <CAL_armiBUvgicf4S9Ksgkb5n6RC2+b=ud=DO98GZ9xenPO705g@mail.gmail.com>

Dark energy 'doesn't exist' so can't be pushing 'lumpy' Universe apart
Date:December 20, 2024       Source:Royal Astronomical Society

The new evidence supports the "timescape" model of cosmic expansion,
which doesn't have a need for dark energy because the differences in
stretching light aren't the result of an accelerating Universe but
instead a consequence of how we calibrate time and distance.

<https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2024/12/241220133038.htm>
Quote:
It takes into account that gravity slows time, so an ideal clock in
empty space ticks faster than inside a galaxy.
The model suggests that a clock in the Milky Way would be about 35 per
cent slower than the same one at an average position in large cosmic
voids, meaning billions more years would have passed in voids. This
would in turn allow more expansion of space, making it seem like the
expansion is getting faster when such vast empty voids grow to
dominate the Universe.
-----------------------

BillK

From postmowoods at gmail.com  Sun Dec 22 17:52:56 2024
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2024 10:52:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] new job
In-Reply-To: <340e464f478941036f3bbc9a26338ac7@sollegro.com>
References: <004801db3b65$7b60d1c0$72227540$@rainier66.com>
 <CACBESnBkNOqhxGZF6j=rLiueArzR+B7okNUtFve2JPfXA0TkPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <63e76e6e-737f-0c9e-3696-4c065f49d141@disroot.org>
 <CACBESnD=ed0YUEM0aFxhwqv7vgtn2DbC3AJgiXMd0_g-5kiJ0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <d195cf38-71ce-1f93-0e85-a0a759d26ca8@disroot.org>
 <CACBESnDd5N1goKexHHODfbL5ybm_fa7nmU+UTFs6fHCCWd+VtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <340e464f478941036f3bbc9a26338ac7@sollegro.com>
Message-ID: <CACBESnDqrs-26rRKx_fHbRNfQtJMdvBbruhYWy8MzbFh29gUnw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 18, 2024 at 1:36?PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> On 2024-12-18 11:29, Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat wrote:
> > On Mon, Nov 25, 2024 at 3:56?PM efc--- via extropy-chat
> > <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >> >       Will Musk become the first trillionaire?
> >> >
> >> > I think so. The main reason being that while mars might remain out of reach
> >> > for a minute, asteroid mining to (ostensibly) pay for mars exploration, may
> >> > not be so far out of reach. I would love to see someone crash Psyche softlyish
> >> > into the moon and mine the crash site for the next 100 years... it would at
> >> > least make an interesting science fiction story.
> >>
> >> That would be a nice story! Fascinating mega project too! The world
> >> needs more
> >> ambitious megaprojects. When ever I am bored with life, I wish there
> >> were more
> >> moonshots around.
> >
> > Having the metals of Psyche available would make a lot of megaprojects
> > possible that we simply don't have enough iron for today.
>
> I think that for asteroid mining, Apophis should be a priority. It is
> scheduled to pass uncomfortably close to Earth in 2029 and there is a
> chance that the close approach will nudge into a subsequent collision
> course with Earth. So any minerals we get from it would be a bonus to
> not havinbg to worry about it.

Apophis is classified as an Sq-type asteroid, which typically
indicates a silicaceous (stony) composition that's somewhat similar to
ordinary chondrite meteorites. While it may have some iron and nickel,
it is not nearly as valuable as some others... Here's some AI
thoughts...

Let me think through the practicality of mining Apophis step by step:

Size and Resource Potential

Apophis is relatively small (about 370 meters wide)
While it likely contains valuable metals, the total quantity would be
limited by its size
Many other near-Earth asteroids are larger and potentially richer in resources

Accessibility Considerations

Apophis will make an extremely close approach to Earth in 2029
This could theoretically make it more accessible than many other asteroids
However, its orbit and velocity would still make mining operations challenging

Technical Challenges

We currently don't have proven asteroid mining technology
The irregular shape and spinning motion of Apophis would complicate operations
Equipment would need to be developed to work in micro-gravity conditions
Getting mining equipment to and from Apophis would be extremely expensive

Economic Factors

Launch costs remain very high
The technology development needed would require massive investment
Market prices for metals would need to justify the enormous expenses
Other asteroids might offer better return on investment

Timing Issues

The 2029 close approach would be the ideal window
This leaves limited time to develop and deploy mining technology
Missing this window would make the operation much more difficult

Given these factors, mining Apophis probably wouldn't be the most
practical choice for early asteroid mining efforts. Larger, more
resource-rich, and more easily accessible asteroids would likely make
better initial targets. The main advantage Apophis offers is its close
approach in 2029, but the technical and economic challenges would
likely outweigh this benefit.

Would you like me to elaborate on any of these aspects?

CopyRetry
KA

What asteroids would be best to start with?

Edit

Let me analyze the best candidate asteroids for initial mining operations:

Near-Earth asteroids with these characteristics would be ideal first targets:

Ryugu and Bennu

We've already visited them with sample return missions (Hayabusa2 and
OSIRIS-REx)
We have detailed surface maps and composition data
Both are relatively large (Ryugu ~900m, Bennu ~490m)
Their carbon-rich composition suggests valuable rare metals
Their orbits are well understood
They rotate slowly, making operations easier

1986 DA

Extremely metal-rich (M-type asteroid)
Estimated to contain large amounts of iron, nickel, cobalt, and precious metals
Relatively close orbit to Earth
Size (~2-3 km) provides substantial material to work with
Potentially worth trillions in metal value

2011 UW158

Another metal-rich asteroid
Estimated value in the trillions due to platinum group metals
Relatively accessible orbit
Size (~300m) makes it manageable for initial operations

4660 Nereus

Very accessible orbit with low delta-v requirement
Frequent close approaches to Earth
Small size (~330m) but easier to reach than most
Has been considered for sample return missions

Key factors that make these good candidates:

Known composition through spectral analysis
Stable rotation
Orbits requiring relatively low fuel to reach
Sufficient size to be worth mining but not too large for initial operations
Multiple opportunities for launches due to orbital mechanics

The ideal first target would combine accessibility with known
characteristics from previous missions, which is why Ryugu and Bennu
are particularly attractive despite not being the most valuable in
terms of raw materials.

======

1986 DA sounds very interesting and I'd never heard of that one before.

-Kelly


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sun Dec 22 18:12:49 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2024 10:12:49 -0800
Subject: [ExI] new job
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnDqrs-26rRKx_fHbRNfQtJMdvBbruhYWy8MzbFh29gUnw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <004801db3b65$7b60d1c0$72227540$@rainier66.com>
 <CACBESnBkNOqhxGZF6j=rLiueArzR+B7okNUtFve2JPfXA0TkPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <63e76e6e-737f-0c9e-3696-4c065f49d141@disroot.org>
 <CACBESnD=ed0YUEM0aFxhwqv7vgtn2DbC3AJgiXMd0_g-5kiJ0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <d195cf38-71ce-1f93-0e85-a0a759d26ca8@disroot.org>
 <CACBESnDd5N1goKexHHODfbL5ybm_fa7nmU+UTFs6fHCCWd+VtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <340e464f478941036f3bbc9a26338ac7@sollegro.com>
 <CACBESnDqrs-26rRKx_fHbRNfQtJMdvBbruhYWy8MzbFh29gUnw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7bbLQ34-Ju9r4SSn=C5RWpGVMvP9N7_aR3t_e+7W7HvQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 22, 2024 at 9:54?AM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

snip

> 1986 DA sounds very interesting and I'd never heard of that one before.

Ah . . . this was 12 years ago.  I am sure it has been posted here at
least a time or two.

https://htyp.org/Mining_Asteroids

If not, there you go, a rough engineering and economic analysis of
mining 1986 DA.

Keith

> -Kelly
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Dec 23 12:07:46 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2024 12:07:46 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Will advancing AI hinder or help online discussion groups?
Message-ID: <CAL_armhCNKinvHkF62JwQ7CLkV5vRWkGCur59nahhS+LhaJ9Vw@mail.gmail.com>

I was wondering how AI could affect discussion groups.

AI could act as a powerful research assistant and provide information
and possible problem solutions.
Though at present we still have to check AI for'hallucinations' and errors.

The disadvantages that I see are that people might become too reliant
on AI and assume that 'AI knows best' and reduce their own critical
thinking skills. And people could become intimidated by the apparent
knowledge and reasoning power of AI and reduce their own contribution
to discussions.

In theory, AI could be a big help in discussions and problem-solving.
But AI is becoming more powerful every month. People will find it more
and more difficult to criticise an AI response. When faced with having
to do hours of work to research and find reasons to oppose an AI
comment, many busy people will just opt out of the discussion.

So will AI kill discussions? Will it make us *less* social?

BillK

From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Dec 23 12:21:28 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2024 07:21:28 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Will advancing AI hinder or help online discussion groups?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhCNKinvHkF62JwQ7CLkV5vRWkGCur59nahhS+LhaJ9Vw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhCNKinvHkF62JwQ7CLkV5vRWkGCur59nahhS+LhaJ9Vw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRgPdjTngwQhcp7vGGQfT-gDTBxVdZewe_8pdr5HOq5=w@mail.gmail.com>

You presume error free AIs that are capable of human-grade imagination and
are in every way superior to humans.  Reality is falling far short of that,
and that might not just be in the short term.

Besides, humans find it quite easy to criticize even the most logically
perfect human responses, and have for millenia.  Consider how humans would
respond if you had one of these hypothetical "perfect" AIs but people
thought they were speaking to a person.  Do you honestly believe they would
not criticize it?

It can already take hours of work to completely rebut a Gish gallop, and
that is demonstrably well within human capability.  Getting people to opt
out of further discussion because it takes so much effort to rebut is
rather the point, despite spewing so much incorrectness.

On Mon, Dec 23, 2024, 7:09?AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I was wondering how AI could affect discussion groups.
>
> AI could act as a powerful research assistant and provide information
> and possible problem solutions.
> Though at present we still have to check AI for'hallucinations' and errors.
>
> The disadvantages that I see are that people might become too reliant
> on AI and assume that 'AI knows best' and reduce their own critical
> thinking skills. And people could become intimidated by the apparent
> knowledge and reasoning power of AI and reduce their own contribution
> to discussions.
>
> In theory, AI could be a big help in discussions and problem-solving.
> But AI is becoming more powerful every month. People will find it more
> and more difficult to criticise an AI response. When faced with having
> to do hours of work to research and find reasons to oppose an AI
> comment, many busy people will just opt out of the discussion.
>
> So will AI kill discussions? Will it make us *less* social?
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Dec 23 14:13:18 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2024 14:13:18 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Will advancing AI hinder or help online discussion groups?
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRgPdjTngwQhcp7vGGQfT-gDTBxVdZewe_8pdr5HOq5=w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhCNKinvHkF62JwQ7CLkV5vRWkGCur59nahhS+LhaJ9Vw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRgPdjTngwQhcp7vGGQfT-gDTBxVdZewe_8pdr5HOq5=w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjEQiHLrebeFPja4SicrYnhC_V_gzZV4fZuL1cwuPo_Sg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 23 Dec 2024 at 12:24, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> You presume error free AIs that are capable of human-grade imagination and are in every way superior to humans.  Reality is falling far short of that, and that might not just be in the short term.
>
> Besides, humans find it quite easy to criticize even the most logically perfect human responses, and have for millenia.  Consider how humans would respond if you had one of these hypothetical "perfect" AIs but people thought they were speaking to a person.  Do you honestly believe they would not criticize it?
>
> It can already take hours of work to completely rebut a Gish gallop, and that is demonstrably well within human capability.  Getting people to opt out of further discussion because it takes so much effort to rebut is rather the point, despite spewing so much incorrectness.
> _______________________________________________


The 'thinking' AIs that have appeared in the last few weeks seem to be
a big improvement over earlier chatbots. But I agree that any AI
responses should be checked for factual accuracy.

I have realised that AIs have the great ability to do as they are
told. So if you ask an AI to explain in detail why X is a bad idea and
to list the weaknesses, it will follow instructions and produce a long
report for you. We can use AI to help us criticise other AI reports.
I think some people have already used AI agents to argue / discuss
online with other AI agents. For the LOLs.  :)

BillK


From bronto at pobox.com  Mon Dec 23 17:20:03 2024
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2024 09:20:03 -0800
Subject: [ExI] new job
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnD=ed0YUEM0aFxhwqv7vgtn2DbC3AJgiXMd0_g-5kiJ0w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <004801db3b65$7b60d1c0$72227540$@rainier66.com>
 <CACBESnBkNOqhxGZF6j=rLiueArzR+B7okNUtFve2JPfXA0TkPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <63e76e6e-737f-0c9e-3696-4c065f49d141@disroot.org>
 <CACBESnD=ed0YUEM0aFxhwqv7vgtn2DbC3AJgiXMd0_g-5kiJ0w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c53986d5-69c8-4afc-aea0-fd68d804a5c2@pobox.com>

On 2024-11-25 12:56, Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat wrote:
> I would love to see someone crash Psyche softlyish into the moon and 
> mine the crash site for the next 100 years... it would at least make an 
> interesting science fiction story.

Eep!  Perhaps something smaller for the first try?
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16_Psyche)

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org


From sjatkins at protonmail.com  Tue Dec 24 01:53:59 2024
From: sjatkins at protonmail.com (Samnatha Atkins)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2024 01:53:59 +0000
Subject: [ExI] andreesen on ai
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNR4xWKnucVmm3jsCjpqixd1uU28xQqyuoWEV8LddDmCdA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006901db5039$5b56e160$1204a420$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNR4xWKnucVmm3jsCjpqixd1uU28xQqyuoWEV8LddDmCdA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b059719a-75b4-4c8c-af38-4e83fae98762@protonmail.com>

Short of complete surveillance and control of all computing and internet 
use there is no way for government to control what people view, 
download, use or what programs they run on their computers. I trust 
their will be a mass uprising well before that.

- samantha

On 12/16/24 10:02 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote:
> Funding those who go along, paired with legal hurdles for those who 
> don't (and are large enough to target, which won't affect most of the 
> small operations).
>
> On Mon, Dec 16, 2024, 11:10?PM spike jones via extropy-chat 
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>     I heard about this but I had no idea how the government was going
>     to prevent companies from doing AI research:
>
>     https://techcrunch.com/2024/12/14/why-marc-andreessen-was-very-scared-after-meeting-with-the-biden-administration-about-ai/
>
>     Any ideas?? I don?t think there is any legal structure that would
>     allow the federal government to tell companies how the may not
>     program their computers.
>
>     spike
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     extropy-chat mailing list
>     extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>     http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Dec 24 23:16:21 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2024 23:16:21 +0000
Subject: [ExI] andreesen on ai
In-Reply-To: <b059719a-75b4-4c8c-af38-4e83fae98762@protonmail.com>
References: <006901db5039$5b56e160$1204a420$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNR4xWKnucVmm3jsCjpqixd1uU28xQqyuoWEV8LddDmCdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b059719a-75b4-4c8c-af38-4e83fae98762@protonmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjN2jCEZBdbPp0n32M7AtU=mCQVmF514v81zjJxbfrqyw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 24 Dec 2024 at 01:56, Samnatha Atkins via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> Short of complete surveillance and control of all computing and internet use there is no way for government to control what people view, download, use or what programs they run on their computers.  I trust their will be a mass uprising well before that.
>
> - samantha
> _______________________________________________

I've just seen a news report
<https://torrentfreak.com/cloudflare-must-block-piracy-shield-domains-and-ip-addresses-across-its-service-241224/>
where an Italian court has ordered Cloudflare to block all Italian
users trying to access Piracy sites on their Piracy Shield system.
And give the government data on who tried to access these sites.
That sounds like the sort of thing (if successful) that would appeal
to all governments that want to control their populations.

BillK

From efc at disroot.org  Tue Dec 24 23:26:27 2024
From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2024 00:26:27 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] andreesen on ai
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjN2jCEZBdbPp0n32M7AtU=mCQVmF514v81zjJxbfrqyw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006901db5039$5b56e160$1204a420$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNR4xWKnucVmm3jsCjpqixd1uU28xQqyuoWEV8LddDmCdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b059719a-75b4-4c8c-af38-4e83fae98762@protonmail.com>
 <CAL_armjN2jCEZBdbPp0n32M7AtU=mCQVmF514v81zjJxbfrqyw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16cf65c6-2a8c-ee24-a624-69b276df020d@disroot.org>



On Tue, 24 Dec 2024, BillK via extropy-chat wrote:

> On Tue, 24 Dec 2024 at 01:56, Samnatha Atkins via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> Short of complete surveillance and control of all computing and internet use there is no way for government to control what people view, download, use or what programs they run on their computers.  I trust their will be a mass uprising well before that.
>>
>> - samantha
>> _______________________________________________
>
> I've just seen a news report
> <https://torrentfreak.com/cloudflare-must-block-piracy-shield-domains-and-ip-addresses-across-its-service-241224/>
> where an Italian court has ordered Cloudflare to block all Italian
> users trying to access Piracy sites on their Piracy Shield system.
> And give the government data on who tried to access these sites.
> That sounds like the sort of thing (if successful) that would appeal
> to all governments that want to control their populations.
>
> BillK

Ahh... the wonderful authoritarian wave currently sweeping over europe.

Freedom of speech and privacy are so old fashioned. Fun fact! Did you know 
sweden as of 1/1 2025, against the recommendations of numerous experts 
will allow anonymous witnesses?

They can also monitor peoples phones and computers without any suspicion, 
and will make it easier to enable more camera surveillance.

Seldom have I felt more certain and right about my choice to build myself 
a fortress of solitude in the remote wilderness to escape the madness spreading at 
lightning speed through europe at the moment.

Let's also see how the massacre in germany will affect their election in 
february. My bet is on the far right getting quite a nice boost, leaving 
the country with an unstable minority government in the political center.

From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Dec 25 12:03:43 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2024 12:03:43 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Do you have a secret family pass phrase?
Message-ID: <CAL_armjDNtdP6R2fwRdTbOXyghwssQufDjx1gschBBNvuCYnSg@mail.gmail.com>

It only takes three seconds of audio content for AI to clone someone?s
voice. And one call from a scammer to trick you into thinking a
?friend? needs money.
Scammers will often use a method called spoofing, which is when they
make a call or text look like it?s coming from someone you know.
AI is making it too easy to fake videos, phone calls or texts.

BillK

---------------------------
You need to create a secret password with your family
written by Elijah       December 25, 2024

<https://whatsnew2day.com/you-need-to-create-a-secret-password-with-your-family/>
Quotes:
There have been increasing calls for people, and particularly
families, to create passphrases or passwords for each other. In early
December, the FBI issued a recommendation that people create a ?secret
word or phrase with their family to verify their identity,? and
British bank Starling has also published guidelines on how to create
safe phrases with other people. It?s a simple, if not new, approach
that can be potentially effective. For example, if you receive a
message or call from your ?son? or ?daughter? urgently asking for
money to get out of a tight spot, asking them to provide a previously
agreed-upon passphrase can reveal whether it is really them.
-------------------------


From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Wed Dec 25 13:09:06 2024
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2024 06:09:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Do you have a secret family pass phrase?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjDNtdP6R2fwRdTbOXyghwssQufDjx1gschBBNvuCYnSg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjDNtdP6R2fwRdTbOXyghwssQufDjx1gschBBNvuCYnSg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onvjdsLS45Nprzsv0uU1tT7STdu5f2RYiTcxDsZwwjDZVg@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks BillK
We have a family Christmas dinner tomorrow, and we're going to come up with
our family secret passphrase, thanks to this.





On Wed, Dec 25, 2024 at 5:05?AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> It only takes three seconds of audio content for AI to clone someone?s
> voice. And one call from a scammer to trick you into thinking a
> ?friend? needs money.
> Scammers will often use a method called spoofing, which is when they
> make a call or text look like it?s coming from someone you know.
> AI is making it too easy to fake videos, phone calls or texts.
>
> BillK
>
> ---------------------------
> You need to create a secret password with your family
> written by Elijah       December 25, 2024
>
> <
> https://whatsnew2day.com/you-need-to-create-a-secret-password-with-your-family/
> >
> Quotes:
> There have been increasing calls for people, and particularly
> families, to create passphrases or passwords for each other. In early
> December, the FBI issued a recommendation that people create a ?secret
> word or phrase with their family to verify their identity,? and
> British bank Starling has also published guidelines on how to create
> safe phrases with other people. It?s a simple, if not new, approach
> that can be potentially effective. For example, if you receive a
> message or call from your ?son? or ?daughter? urgently asking for
> money to get out of a tight spot, asking them to provide a previously
> agreed-upon passphrase can reveal whether it is really them.
> -------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Dec 25 16:35:40 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2024 08:35:40 -0800
Subject: [ExI] is this fake?
Message-ID: <002d01db56eb$09fb0270$1df10750$@rainier66.com>

 

 

Can anyone here tell if this video is fake?  If not. dayum:

 

https://x.com/i/status/1871198655568548065

 

spike

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From john at ziaspace.com  Wed Dec 25 16:53:19 2024
From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2024 16:53:19 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ExI] is this fake?
In-Reply-To: <002d01db56eb$09fb0270$1df10750$@rainier66.com>
References: <002d01db56eb$09fb0270$1df10750$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <efe01e42-9af8-8e4a-daaf-609b312401a1@daisy.zia.io>

> Can anyone here tell if this video is fake?? If not? dayum:
> https://x.com/i/status/1871198655568548065

100% fake.

Happy holidays!

John

From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Dec 25 18:05:59 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2024 18:05:59 +0000
Subject: [ExI] is this fake?
In-Reply-To: <002d01db56eb$09fb0270$1df10750$@rainier66.com>
References: <002d01db56eb$09fb0270$1df10750$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armh3989UNY=emRVH6h_5LzCffaSYfy1tLm=25s_Pper3oQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 25 Dec 2024 at 16:38, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> Can anyone here tell if this video is fake?  If not? dayum:
> https://x.com/i/status/1871198655568548065
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


As far as I can tell, this is a valid demo video of the Unitree B2-W.
The spec is on the website.
<https://www.unitree.com/b2-w/>

I scanned the video at <https://scanner.deepware.ai/>
and it said "No Deepfake Detected".

The Chinese are doing some very advanced work on robots.

BillK


From dsunley at gmail.com  Wed Dec 25 18:55:15 2024
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2024 11:55:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] is this fake?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armh3989UNY=emRVH6h_5LzCffaSYfy1tLm=25s_Pper3oQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002d01db56eb$09fb0270$1df10750$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armh3989UNY=emRVH6h_5LzCffaSYfy1tLm=25s_Pper3oQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEptUkSigJ888zMBwNZ=41H+WR4hBQLjhdPx0Zc8Jnm6Zi3zZw@mail.gmail.com>

I am either scarily impressed at the state of the art in robotics, or
scarily impressed at the state of the art in 3D graphics, particularly the
water effects and the particle effects from the loose rocks later in the
video.

On Wed, Dec 25, 2024 at 11:08?AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Wed, 25 Dec 2024 at 16:38, spike jones via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> > Can anyone here tell if this video is fake?  If not? dayum:
> > https://x.com/i/status/1871198655568548065
> >
> > spike
> > _______________________________________________
>
>
> As far as I can tell, this is a valid demo video of the Unitree B2-W.
> The spec is on the website.
> <https://www.unitree.com/b2-w/>
>
> I scanned the video at <https://scanner.deepware.ai/>
> and it said "No Deepfake Detected".
>
> The Chinese are doing some very advanced work on robots.
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Dec 25 19:06:57 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2024 19:06:57 +0000
Subject: [ExI] is this fake?
In-Reply-To: <CAEptUkSigJ888zMBwNZ=41H+WR4hBQLjhdPx0Zc8Jnm6Zi3zZw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002d01db56eb$09fb0270$1df10750$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armh3989UNY=emRVH6h_5LzCffaSYfy1tLm=25s_Pper3oQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkSigJ888zMBwNZ=41H+WR4hBQLjhdPx0Zc8Jnm6Zi3zZw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgP=QtsUB7UW5eKQ8Gur=T2d6AUhynyxSPYcAzYzBuvgQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 25 Dec 2024 at 18:57, Darin Sunley via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> I am either scarily impressed at the state of the art in robotics, or scarily impressed at the state of the art in 3D graphics, particularly the water effects and the particle effects from the loose rocks later in the video.
> _______________________________________________


If you do a search for Unitree videos, you get a big selection.
Presumably they are selling these in China.

BillK

From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Dec 25 19:08:17 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2024 14:08:17 -0500
Subject: [ExI] is this fake?
In-Reply-To: <002d01db56eb$09fb0270$1df10750$@rainier66.com>
References: <002d01db56eb$09fb0270$1df10750$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQ84hdUW=qovPUnoVfD8OH8Xj3tNvtsmV4bCf72bLtUoA@mail.gmail.com>

I see nothing to suggest this is fake.  It's the degree of response that I
was expecting a while ago.

Of course, it could have been staged.  Some who have been raised on video
games have gotten just that good at this sort of remote control.  But I
find autonomous balancing to be more likely.

On Wed, Dec 25, 2024 at 11:37?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> Can anyone here tell if this video is fake?  If not? dayum:
>
>
>
> https://x.com/i/status/1871198655568548065
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From efc at disroot.org  Wed Dec 25 21:41:49 2024
From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2024 22:41:49 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Do you have a secret family pass phrase?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjDNtdP6R2fwRdTbOXyghwssQufDjx1gschBBNvuCYnSg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjDNtdP6R2fwRdTbOXyghwssQufDjx1gschBBNvuCYnSg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ff032f96-8f58-9e4d-37dc-fef5cdcaa71e@disroot.org>



On Wed, 25 Dec 2024, BillK via extropy-chat wrote:

> It only takes three seconds of audio content for AI to clone someone?s
> voice. And one call from a scammer to trick you into thinking a
> ?friend? needs money.
> Scammers will often use a method called spoofing, which is when they
> make a call or text look like it?s coming from someone you know.
> AI is making it too easy to fake videos, phone calls or texts.

Actually I don't. The most common attack vector (currently) when it comes 
to scams is to trick old people into using their digital ID:s to confirm 
money transfers.

I've forbidden my father to use digital ID, and only use the traditional 
method of walking down to the bank office and physically show them his ID, 
so should anyone try a scam, he is first of all very suspicious, and 
second of all, nothing can be done by phone, and third, there's a natural 
cool off period since he had to walk to the bank, and finally, I and the 
bank will also have opportunities to say something.

When it comes to my wife and I, just the question of any transfers of any 
kind would raise suspicion instantly so no code word there either.

> BillK
>
> ---------------------------
> You need to create a secret password with your family
> written by Elijah       December 25, 2024
>
> <https://whatsnew2day.com/you-need-to-create-a-secret-password-with-your-family/>
> Quotes:
> There have been increasing calls for people, and particularly
> families, to create passphrases or passwords for each other. In early
> December, the FBI issued a recommendation that people create a ?secret
> word or phrase with their family to verify their identity,? and
> British bank Starling has also published guidelines on how to create
> safe phrases with other people. It?s a simple, if not new, approach
> that can be potentially effective. For example, if you receive a
> message or call from your ?son? or ?daughter? urgently asking for
> money to get out of a tight spot, asking them to provide a previously
> agreed-upon passphrase can reveal whether it is really them.
> -------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Dec 26 05:54:41 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2024 21:54:41 -0800
Subject: [ExI] An interesting situation
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6OgO2bfHnMoxnfqmKWtN-bj29H_xSCCyOpUkndbV_1bg@mail.gmail.com>

>From Wired

GOP Lawmakers Want Elon Musk to Be Speaker of the House

There is no requirement that the Speaker of the House be an elected
member of Congress. After Elon Musk all but killed a bill to fund the
government, lawmakers now propose to cut out the middleman.
^^^^^^^
The speaker of the house is 3rd in line to be president.

"Eligibility

Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 of the Constitution sets three
qualifications for holding the presidency. To serve as president, one
must:

be a natural-born citizen of the United States;
be at least 35 years old;
be a resident in the United States for at least 14 years.[131]

snip

Under the Twenty-second Amendment, no person can be elected president
more than twice. The amendment also specifies that if any eligible
person serves as president or acting president for more than two years
of a term for which some other eligible person was elected president,
the former can only be elected president once.[136][137]"

There does not seem to be any provision that the Speaker of the House
needs to be qualified to be President, but if both the President and
VP died would the speaker become President in spite of the
Constitutional provisions?

President Musk might not be impossible.

Keith

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Dec 26 05:59:34 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2024 21:59:34 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Do you have a secret family pass phrase?
In-Reply-To: <ff032f96-8f58-9e4d-37dc-fef5cdcaa71e@disroot.org>
References: <CAL_armjDNtdP6R2fwRdTbOXyghwssQufDjx1gschBBNvuCYnSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <ff032f96-8f58-9e4d-37dc-fef5cdcaa71e@disroot.org>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB55CsksyfW1Dzm2gBzYodAzfG--gEt4g4aFDZ6M90E9UQ@mail.gmail.com>

The scientology cult tried this on me some years ago.  It did not
work, but it came close.

Keith

On Wed, Dec 25, 2024 at 1:43?PM efc--- via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wed, 25 Dec 2024, BillK via extropy-chat wrote:
>
> > It only takes three seconds of audio content for AI to clone someone?s
> > voice. And one call from a scammer to trick you into thinking a
> > ?friend? needs money.
> > Scammers will often use a method called spoofing, which is when they
> > make a call or text look like it?s coming from someone you know.
> > AI is making it too easy to fake videos, phone calls or texts.
>
> Actually I don't. The most common attack vector (currently) when it comes
> to scams is to trick old people into using their digital ID:s to confirm
> money transfers.
>
> I've forbidden my father to use digital ID, and only use the traditional
> method of walking down to the bank office and physically show them his ID,
> so should anyone try a scam, he is first of all very suspicious, and
> second of all, nothing can be done by phone, and third, there's a natural
> cool off period since he had to walk to the bank, and finally, I and the
> bank will also have opportunities to say something.
>
> When it comes to my wife and I, just the question of any transfers of any
> kind would raise suspicion instantly so no code word there either.
>
> > BillK
> >
> > ---------------------------
> > You need to create a secret password with your family
> > written by Elijah       December 25, 2024
> >
> > <https://whatsnew2day.com/you-need-to-create-a-secret-password-with-your-family/>
> > Quotes:
> > There have been increasing calls for people, and particularly
> > families, to create passphrases or passwords for each other. In early
> > December, the FBI issued a recommendation that people create a ?secret
> > word or phrase with their family to verify their identity,? and
> > British bank Starling has also published guidelines on how to create
> > safe phrases with other people. It?s a simple, if not new, approach
> > that can be potentially effective. For example, if you receive a
> > message or call from your ?son? or ?daughter? urgently asking for
> > money to get out of a tight spot, asking them to provide a previously
> > agreed-upon passphrase can reveal whether it is really them.
> > -------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat_______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From hartreef at hotmail.com  Thu Dec 26 08:26:00 2024
From: hartreef at hotmail.com (Kyle Webb)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2024 08:26:00 +0000
Subject: [ExI] An interesting situation
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB6OgO2bfHnMoxnfqmKWtN-bj29H_xSCCyOpUkndbV_1bg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6OgO2bfHnMoxnfqmKWtN-bj29H_xSCCyOpUkndbV_1bg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CYXPR84MB34315F25ADE7A38A52E54557D40D2@CYXPR84MB3431.NAMPRD84.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

IIRC, it would pass over the ineligible person to the next person in the line of succession who met all the qualifications. Next would be the President Pro Tempore of the Senate.

Kyle
________________________________
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> on behalf of Keith Henson via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2024 11:54 PM
To: extropolis at googlegroups.com <extropolis at googlegroups.com>; ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
Subject: [ExI] An interesting situation

>From Wired

GOP Lawmakers Want Elon Musk to Be Speaker of the House

There is no requirement that the Speaker of the House be an elected
member of Congress. After Elon Musk all but killed a bill to fund the
government, lawmakers now propose to cut out the middleman.
^^^^^^^
The speaker of the house is 3rd in line to be president.

"Eligibility

Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 of the Constitution sets three
qualifications for holding the presidency. To serve as president, one
must:

be a natural-born citizen of the United States;
be at least 35 years old;
be a resident in the United States for at least 14 years.[131]

snip

Under the Twenty-second Amendment, no person can be elected president
more than twice. The amendment also specifies that if any eligible
person serves as president or acting president for more than two years
of a term for which some other eligible person was elected president,
the former can only be elected president once.[136][137]"

There does not seem to be any provision that the Speaker of the House
needs to be qualified to be President, but if both the President and
VP died would the speaker become President in spite of the
Constitutional provisions?

President Musk might not be impossible.

Keith
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From efc at disroot.org  Thu Dec 26 10:55:17 2024
From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2024 11:55:17 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Do you have a secret family pass phrase?
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB55CsksyfW1Dzm2gBzYodAzfG--gEt4g4aFDZ6M90E9UQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjDNtdP6R2fwRdTbOXyghwssQufDjx1gschBBNvuCYnSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <ff032f96-8f58-9e4d-37dc-fef5cdcaa71e@disroot.org>
 <CAPiwVB55CsksyfW1Dzm2gBzYodAzfG--gEt4g4aFDZ6M90E9UQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9e9f90aa-b5d4-ca2c-f1da-dfb532e663c4@disroot.org>



On Wed, 25 Dec 2024, Keith Henson wrote:

> The scientology cult tried this on me some years ago.  It did not
> work, but it came close.

I have memories of those weirdoes. The first time I visited New York, I 
must have been 11 or so, they had this tradition of having a TV on the 
side walk. Being from sweden, I'd never seen that before and stopped to watch.

After a few second some guy came up and started to talk with me, and soon 
my father saw that and came to the rescue. Very weird people!

The only recruiters I've met the past 2 decades are Jehovas witnesses 
(they sent 3 photo models to my home early on a sunday morning.) and 
mormons. The mormons often seem more afraid of me, than I of them, when we 
start to discuss philosophy and they soon tire of the conversation. ;)

> Keith
>
> On Wed, Dec 25, 2024 at 1:43?PM efc--- via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 25 Dec 2024, BillK via extropy-chat wrote:
>>
>>> It only takes three seconds of audio content for AI to clone someone?s
>>> voice. And one call from a scammer to trick you into thinking a
>>> ?friend? needs money.
>>> Scammers will often use a method called spoofing, which is when they
>>> make a call or text look like it?s coming from someone you know.
>>> AI is making it too easy to fake videos, phone calls or texts.
>>
>> Actually I don't. The most common attack vector (currently) when it comes
>> to scams is to trick old people into using their digital ID:s to confirm
>> money transfers.
>>
>> I've forbidden my father to use digital ID, and only use the traditional
>> method of walking down to the bank office and physically show them his ID,
>> so should anyone try a scam, he is first of all very suspicious, and
>> second of all, nothing can be done by phone, and third, there's a natural
>> cool off period since he had to walk to the bank, and finally, I and the
>> bank will also have opportunities to say something.
>>
>> When it comes to my wife and I, just the question of any transfers of any
>> kind would raise suspicion instantly so no code word there either.
>>
>>> BillK
>>>
>>> ---------------------------
>>> You need to create a secret password with your family
>>> written by Elijah       December 25, 2024
>>>
>>> <https://whatsnew2day.com/you-need-to-create-a-secret-password-with-your-family/>
>>> Quotes:
>>> There have been increasing calls for people, and particularly
>>> families, to create passphrases or passwords for each other. In early
>>> December, the FBI issued a recommendation that people create a ?secret
>>> word or phrase with their family to verify their identity,? and
>>> British bank Starling has also published guidelines on how to create
>>> safe phrases with other people. It?s a simple, if not new, approach
>>> that can be potentially effective. For example, if you receive a
>>> message or call from your ?son? or ?daughter? urgently asking for
>>> money to get out of a tight spot, asking them to provide a previously
>>> agreed-upon passphrase can reveal whether it is really them.
>>> -------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat_______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>

From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Dec 26 12:32:32 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2024 07:32:32 -0500
Subject: [ExI] An interesting situation
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB6OgO2bfHnMoxnfqmKWtN-bj29H_xSCCyOpUkndbV_1bg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6OgO2bfHnMoxnfqmKWtN-bj29H_xSCCyOpUkndbV_1bg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSTaQxO5Mq67ygS25Th6vrXU=+hVHGePVOk83vj3feiGg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 26, 2024, 12:56?AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> There does not seem to be any provision that the Speaker of the House
> needs to be qualified to be President, but if both the President and
> VP died would the speaker become President in spite of the
> Constitutional provisions?
>

No (for any speaker not constitutionally qualified), and this is handled
under current law.  Right now, in fact, there are a few on the Presidential
succession list who are not qualified; should everyone above them be
removed from office, they would simply be skipped.  See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_line_of_succession
.

I have heard of a counterproposal to nominate Liz Cheney as Speaker of the
House, seeking support from Democrats and a few dissatisfied Republicans.
IIRC, she would be constitutionally qualified to become President should
this happen and circumstances remove Trump and Vance.

>
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Dec 26 20:26:06 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2024 12:26:06 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Do you have a secret family pass phrase?
In-Reply-To: <9e9f90aa-b5d4-ca2c-f1da-dfb532e663c4@disroot.org>
References: <CAL_armjDNtdP6R2fwRdTbOXyghwssQufDjx1gschBBNvuCYnSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <ff032f96-8f58-9e4d-37dc-fef5cdcaa71e@disroot.org>
 <CAPiwVB55CsksyfW1Dzm2gBzYodAzfG--gEt4g4aFDZ6M90E9UQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9e9f90aa-b5d4-ca2c-f1da-dfb532e663c4@disroot.org>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5zhQ9WxQyjMXjd7AobfQ8F3hgHboeSioVkC43w-DuuWQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 26, 2024 at 2:56?AM efc--- via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 25 Dec 2024, Keith Henson wrote:
>
> > The scientology cult tried this on me some years ago.  It did not
> > work, but it came close.
>
> I have memories of those weirdoes.

https://www.academia.edu/37893481/Sex_Drugs_and_Cults_An_evolutionary_psychology_perspective_on_why_and_how_cult_memes_get_a_drug_like_hold_on_people_and_what_might_be_done_to_mitigate_the_effects

I tangled with them originally over their attempt to censor the net.

After a short time, I started to wonder what was wrong with these
people.  At about the same time I discovered evolutionary psychology
In short, humans have evolved vulnerabilities to attention.  There is
a sound evolutionary reason why people are highly rewarded by
attention. Status is more or less integrated attention, and high
status (at least in males) makes you more likely to be an ancestor.
For some people, attention is as addicting as drugs.  And cults
provide attention.

Keith

>The first time I visited New York, I
> must have been 11 or so, they had this tradition of having a TV on the
> side walk. Being from sweden, I'd never seen that before and stopped to watch.
>
> After a few second some guy came up and started to talk with me, and soon
> my father saw that and came to the rescue. Very weird people!
>
> The only recruiters I've met the past 2 decades are Jehovas witnesses
> (they sent 3 photo models to my home early on a sunday morning.) and
> mormons. The mormons often seem more afraid of me, than I of them, when we
> start to discuss philosophy and they soon tire of the conversation. ;)
>
> > Keith
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 25, 2024 at 1:43?PM efc--- via extropy-chat
> > <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, 25 Dec 2024, BillK via extropy-chat wrote:
> >>
> >>> It only takes three seconds of audio content for AI to clone someone?s
> >>> voice. And one call from a scammer to trick you into thinking a
> >>> ?friend? needs money.
> >>> Scammers will often use a method called spoofing, which is when they
> >>> make a call or text look like it?s coming from someone you know.
> >>> AI is making it too easy to fake videos, phone calls or texts.
> >>
> >> Actually I don't. The most common attack vector (currently) when it comes
> >> to scams is to trick old people into using their digital ID:s to confirm
> >> money transfers.
> >>
> >> I've forbidden my father to use digital ID, and only use the traditional
> >> method of walking down to the bank office and physically show them his ID,
> >> so should anyone try a scam, he is first of all very suspicious, and
> >> second of all, nothing can be done by phone, and third, there's a natural
> >> cool off period since he had to walk to the bank, and finally, I and the
> >> bank will also have opportunities to say something.
> >>
> >> When it comes to my wife and I, just the question of any transfers of any
> >> kind would raise suspicion instantly so no code word there either.
> >>
> >>> BillK
> >>>
> >>> ---------------------------
> >>> You need to create a secret password with your family
> >>> written by Elijah       December 25, 2024
> >>>
> >>> <https://whatsnew2day.com/you-need-to-create-a-secret-password-with-your-family/>
> >>> Quotes:
> >>> There have been increasing calls for people, and particularly
> >>> families, to create passphrases or passwords for each other. In early
> >>> December, the FBI issued a recommendation that people create a ?secret
> >>> word or phrase with their family to verify their identity,? and
> >>> British bank Starling has also published guidelines on how to create
> >>> safe phrases with other people. It?s a simple, if not new, approach
> >>> that can be potentially effective. For example, if you receive a
> >>> message or call from your ?son? or ?daughter? urgently asking for
> >>> money to get out of a tight spot, asking them to provide a previously
> >>> agreed-upon passphrase can reveal whether it is really them.
> >>> -------------------------
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> extropy-chat mailing list
> >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat_______________________________________________
> >> extropy-chat mailing list
> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >_______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Dec 26 21:44:36 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2024 21:44:36 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Interview with an ex-OpenAI exec and futurist about AI in
 2025 and beyond
Message-ID: <CAL_armgUz6qDv1Fs5wY=onaKyyh+hjqgJm26k+tRSdOFabPTqA@mail.gmail.com>

An ex-OpenAI exec and futurist talks about AI in 2025 and beyond
AI could bring some real benefits next year, but also some unforeseen
side effects.
By Mark Sullivan    12-26-2024

<https://www.fastcompany.com/91252463/an-ex-openai-exec-and-futurist-talks-about-ai-in-2025-and-beyond>
Quotes:
This week, I?m dedicating the newsletter to a conversation I had
recently with the futurist Zack Kass about some of the risks and myths
that will come with the advent of AI across business and society.

More likely is that, at some point, a percentage of the population
will be more interested in the virtual reality than the physical one,
and that percentage may grow and actually become sort of dominant,
which would obviously be catastrophic for population growth and
quality of life.

If you can actually figure out how to automate everything and the cost
of everything declines so far that you can live freely, it?s more that
people may not know what their purpose is in a world where their work
changes so frequently and so much.

The low-resource bad actor problem is a risk. In a world where we
embolden anyone to do interesting things with this technology, we
should create very punitive measures to police bad acting with it. We
should make bad actors terrified to use AI to do bad things?financial
crime, deepfakes, etc.
----------------

An interesting discussion from an AI insider.

BillK


From dsunley at gmail.com  Fri Dec 27 02:51:57 2024
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2024 19:51:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Interview with an ex-OpenAI exec and futurist about AI in
 2025 and beyond
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgUz6qDv1Fs5wY=onaKyyh+hjqgJm26k+tRSdOFabPTqA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgUz6qDv1Fs5wY=onaKyyh+hjqgJm26k+tRSdOFabPTqA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEptUkRCphEmX4646UXYKaUfsE-Or-SRy8CCoefHQEYG_+srUg@mail.gmail.com>

" The low-resource bad actor problem is a risk. In a world where we
embolden anyone to do interesting things with this technology, we
should create very punitive measures to police bad acting with it. We
should make bad actors terrified to use <technology> to do bad things..."

This precise conversation occurred when VCRs were invented. The net result
was the various law enforcement agencies declaring, at the behest of the
billionaire donor class heavily invested in Hollywood film studios, that
making copies of movies was a new kind of crime against humanity
significantly worse than mere murder, billions of man-hours wasted sitting
through unskippable FBI warnings on video tapes and DVDs, and no meaningful
impact on the number of bootleg movies being sold on the streets of New
york, not to even mention Hong Kong or Mumbai.

History does not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

On Thu, Dec 26, 2024 at 2:47?PM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> An ex-OpenAI exec and futurist talks about AI in 2025 and beyond
> AI could bring some real benefits next year, but also some unforeseen
> side effects.
> By Mark Sullivan    12-26-2024
>
> <
> https://www.fastcompany.com/91252463/an-ex-openai-exec-and-futurist-talks-about-ai-in-2025-and-beyond
> >
> Quotes:
> This week, I?m dedicating the newsletter to a conversation I had
> recently with the futurist Zack Kass about some of the risks and myths
> that will come with the advent of AI across business and society.
>
> More likely is that, at some point, a percentage of the population
> will be more interested in the virtual reality than the physical one,
> and that percentage may grow and actually become sort of dominant,
> which would obviously be catastrophic for population growth and
> quality of life.
>
> If you can actually figure out how to automate everything and the cost
> of everything declines so far that you can live freely, it?s more that
> people may not know what their purpose is in a world where their work
> changes so frequently and so much.
>
> The low-resource bad actor problem is a risk. In a world where we
> embolden anyone to do interesting things with this technology, we
> should create very punitive measures to police bad acting with it. We
> should make bad actors terrified to use AI to do bad things?financial
> crime, deepfakes, etc.
> ----------------
>
> An interesting discussion from an AI insider.
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From efc at disroot.org  Fri Dec 27 11:54:37 2024
From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2024 12:54:37 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Do you have a secret family pass phrase?
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB5zhQ9WxQyjMXjd7AobfQ8F3hgHboeSioVkC43w-DuuWQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjDNtdP6R2fwRdTbOXyghwssQufDjx1gschBBNvuCYnSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <ff032f96-8f58-9e4d-37dc-fef5cdcaa71e@disroot.org>
 <CAPiwVB55CsksyfW1Dzm2gBzYodAzfG--gEt4g4aFDZ6M90E9UQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9e9f90aa-b5d4-ca2c-f1da-dfb532e663c4@disroot.org>
 <CAPiwVB5zhQ9WxQyjMXjd7AobfQ8F3hgHboeSioVkC43w-DuuWQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <196d56ab-1429-4ef9-c175-5da25ba2e602@disroot.org>



On Thu, 26 Dec 2024, Keith Henson wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 26, 2024 at 2:56?AM efc--- via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 25 Dec 2024, Keith Henson wrote:
>>
>>> The scientology cult tried this on me some years ago.  It did not
>>> work, but it came close.
>>
>> I have memories of those weirdoes.
>
> https://www.academia.edu/37893481/Sex_Drugs_and_Cults_An_evolutionary_psychology_perspective_on_why_and_how_cult_memes_get_a_drug_like_hold_on_people_and_what_might_be_done_to_mitigate_the_effects
>
> I tangled with them originally over their attempt to censor the net.
>
> After a short time, I started to wonder what was wrong with these
> people.  At about the same time I discovered evolutionary psychology
> In short, humans have evolved vulnerabilities to attention.  There is
> a sound evolutionary reason why people are highly rewarded by
> attention. Status is more or less integrated attention, and high
> status (at least in males) makes you more likely to be an ancestor.
> For some people, attention is as addicting as drugs.  And cults
> provide attention.

Makes a lot of sense. How hard is it to change these innate tendencies and 
behaviours?

> Keith
>
>> The first time I visited New York, I
>> must have been 11 or so, they had this tradition of having a TV on the
>> side walk. Being from sweden, I'd never seen that before and stopped to watch.
>>
>> After a few second some guy came up and started to talk with me, and soon
>> my father saw that and came to the rescue. Very weird people!
>>
>> The only recruiters I've met the past 2 decades are Jehovas witnesses
>> (they sent 3 photo models to my home early on a sunday morning.) and
>> mormons. The mormons often seem more afraid of me, than I of them, when we
>> start to discuss philosophy and they soon tire of the conversation. ;)
>>
>>> Keith
>>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 25, 2024 at 1:43?PM efc--- via extropy-chat
>>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 25 Dec 2024, BillK via extropy-chat wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> It only takes three seconds of audio content for AI to clone someone?s
>>>>> voice. And one call from a scammer to trick you into thinking a
>>>>> ?friend? needs money.
>>>>> Scammers will often use a method called spoofing, which is when they
>>>>> make a call or text look like it?s coming from someone you know.
>>>>> AI is making it too easy to fake videos, phone calls or texts.
>>>>
>>>> Actually I don't. The most common attack vector (currently) when it comes
>>>> to scams is to trick old people into using their digital ID:s to confirm
>>>> money transfers.
>>>>
>>>> I've forbidden my father to use digital ID, and only use the traditional
>>>> method of walking down to the bank office and physically show them his ID,
>>>> so should anyone try a scam, he is first of all very suspicious, and
>>>> second of all, nothing can be done by phone, and third, there's a natural
>>>> cool off period since he had to walk to the bank, and finally, I and the
>>>> bank will also have opportunities to say something.
>>>>
>>>> When it comes to my wife and I, just the question of any transfers of any
>>>> kind would raise suspicion instantly so no code word there either.
>>>>
>>>>> BillK
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------
>>>>> You need to create a secret password with your family
>>>>> written by Elijah       December 25, 2024
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://whatsnew2day.com/you-need-to-create-a-secret-password-with-your-family/>
>>>>> Quotes:
>>>>> There have been increasing calls for people, and particularly
>>>>> families, to create passphrases or passwords for each other. In early
>>>>> December, the FBI issued a recommendation that people create a ?secret
>>>>> word or phrase with their family to verify their identity,? and
>>>>> British bank Starling has also published guidelines on how to create
>>>>> safe phrases with other people. It?s a simple, if not new, approach
>>>>> that can be potentially effective. For example, if you receive a
>>>>> message or call from your ?son? or ?daughter? urgently asking for
>>>>> money to get out of a tight spot, asking them to provide a previously
>>>>> agreed-upon passphrase can reveal whether it is really them.
>>>>> -------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat_______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>

From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Dec 27 12:31:36 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2024 12:31:36 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Interview with an ex-OpenAI exec and futurist about AI in
 2025 and beyond
In-Reply-To: <CAEptUkRCphEmX4646UXYKaUfsE-Or-SRy8CCoefHQEYG_+srUg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgUz6qDv1Fs5wY=onaKyyh+hjqgJm26k+tRSdOFabPTqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkRCphEmX4646UXYKaUfsE-Or-SRy8CCoefHQEYG_+srUg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgOKCZ3haFTHM_1PqhnNQw0Bwia5C8tYs5PHmHo9=VtFA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 27 Dec 2024 at 02:54, Darin Sunley via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> This precise conversation occurred when VCRs were invented. The net result was the various law enforcement agencies declaring, at the behest of the billionaire donor class heavily invested in Hollywood film studios, that making copies of movies was a new kind of crime against humanity significantly worse than mere murder, billions of man-hours wasted sitting through unskippable FBI warnings on video tapes and DVDs, and no meaningful impact on the number of bootleg movies being sold on the streets of New york, not to even mention Hong Kong or Mumbai.
>
> History does not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.
> _______________________________________________


I think a better example is the ongoing contest of virus versus anti-virus.

Criminals are already using AI to aid in developing computer attacks.
So AI must be developed to defend against these attacks.
We now have AI available to detect deepfake videos, AI image
manipulation and AI generated texts.
As the military and criminals develop more aggressive AI tactics, then
more aggressive defence AI will be developed.
I see this contest driving AI research and development in the coming years.

BillK


From postmowoods at gmail.com  Fri Dec 27 14:45:23 2024
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2024 07:45:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Do you have a secret family pass phrase?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjDNtdP6R2fwRdTbOXyghwssQufDjx1gschBBNvuCYnSg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjDNtdP6R2fwRdTbOXyghwssQufDjx1gschBBNvuCYnSg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACBESnAJFrv9PgHv9MjRUwdR7EsJAAGRh_zGKskQV4eJSK4xow@mail.gmail.com>

I think I mentioned this here a few months back.

As I reflect on things that have happened lately in my own life I see that
it's hard not to get scammed. I did get scammed by an AI last month.

At the same time, I've completed transactions over the phone with my bank
on several occasions recently where an AI could easily have accomplished
what I was trying to do.  It makes me nervous what my bank allows without
confirmation or passcodes... while simultaneously upping security to absurd
levels on other transactions.

-Kelly

On Wed, Dec 25, 2024, 5:04 AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> It only takes three seconds of audio content for AI to clone someone?s
> voice. And one call from a scammer to trick you into thinking a
> ?friend? needs money.
> Scammers will often use a method called spoofing, which is when they
> make a call or text look like it?s coming from someone you know.
> AI is making it too easy to fake videos, phone calls or texts.
>
> BillK
>
> ---------------------------
> You need to create a secret password with your family
> written by Elijah       December 25, 2024
>
> <
> https://whatsnew2day.com/you-need-to-create-a-secret-password-with-your-family/
> >
> Quotes:
> There have been increasing calls for people, and particularly
> families, to create passphrases or passwords for each other. In early
> December, the FBI issued a recommendation that people create a ?secret
> word or phrase with their family to verify their identity,? and
> British bank Starling has also published guidelines on how to create
> safe phrases with other people. It?s a simple, if not new, approach
> that can be potentially effective. For example, if you receive a
> message or call from your ?son? or ?daughter? urgently asking for
> money to get out of a tight spot, asking them to provide a previously
> agreed-upon passphrase can reveal whether it is really them.
> -------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From postmowoods at gmail.com  Fri Dec 27 14:55:53 2024
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2024 07:55:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] is this fake?
In-Reply-To: <002d01db56eb$09fb0270$1df10750$@rainier66.com>
References: <002d01db56eb$09fb0270$1df10750$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CACBESnAHNHcEtFmDUfn9_FUdSejq5evswea4ADAA9xVC5pqk=g@mail.gmail.com>

I was leaning real until I saw the guy balancing without stirrups. That
seemed fake to me somehow. From a physics point of view... how would the
robot balance a person like that?

-Kelly

On Wed, Dec 25, 2024, 9:36 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> Can anyone here tell if this video is fake?  If not? dayum:
>
>
>
> https://x.com/i/status/1871198655568548065
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From postmowoods at gmail.com  Fri Dec 27 15:08:39 2024
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2024 08:08:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] o3
Message-ID: <CACBESnB5RZfwtV8dykUVtL4upVSOopy1R1hLzKOP9d0z2KqpQg@mail.gmail.com>

I may have missed it here... but for anyone living under certain rocks...
QpenAI just did for math what Alpha Go did for go. o3 is super human at
math.

It's supposedly also world class at competitive programming, ranking in the
top 200 competitive programmers. I'm not as sure that programmers are quite
as doomed as mathematicians, yet... as I don't know what percentage of
programmers participate in such events....

Putting all of this in context though... it's thousands of dollars per
answer in current server time. But that's just a matter of time or money.
The algorithms work. Dayum.

-Kelly
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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Dec 27 15:21:10 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2024 10:21:10 -0500
Subject: [ExI] is this fake?
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnAHNHcEtFmDUfn9_FUdSejq5evswea4ADAA9xVC5pqk=g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002d01db56eb$09fb0270$1df10750$@rainier66.com>
 <CACBESnAHNHcEtFmDUfn9_FUdSejq5evswea4ADAA9xVC5pqk=g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSzNuD2E73HdXh91uOPPY0rCXtee9mdGSeA0wmbnt1scQ@mail.gmail.com>

I suspect the robot is fitted with several highly precise gyroscopes, or
similar instruments, and processes primarily based on what it is
experiencing rather than merely what it expects.  Thus, the person sitting
on it is just another external input.  The control algorithm works much the
same as how an adult human might balance if one or two kids climbed on
their shoulders (and said adult was strong enough to not collapse).

On Fri, Dec 27, 2024 at 9:57?AM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I was leaning real until I saw the guy balancing without stirrups. That
> seemed fake to me somehow. From a physics point of view... how would the
> robot balance a person like that?
>
> -Kelly
>
> On Wed, Dec 25, 2024, 9:36 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Can anyone here tell if this video is fake?  If not? dayum:
>>
>>
>>
>> https://x.com/i/status/1871198655568548065
>>
>>
>>
>> spike
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From efc at disroot.org  Fri Dec 27 16:27:05 2024
From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2024 17:27:05 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Do you have a secret family pass phrase?
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnAJFrv9PgHv9MjRUwdR7EsJAAGRh_zGKskQV4eJSK4xow@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjDNtdP6R2fwRdTbOXyghwssQufDjx1gschBBNvuCYnSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACBESnAJFrv9PgHv9MjRUwdR7EsJAAGRh_zGKskQV4eJSK4xow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d02a66d7-8dc7-48f3-b001-2a4ec701af35@disroot.org>



On Fri, 27 Dec 2024, Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat wrote:

> I think I mentioned this here a few months back.?
> As I reflect on things that have happened lately in my own life I see that it's hard not to get scammed. I did get scammed by an AI
> last month.?
> 
> At the same time, I've completed transactions over the phone with my bank on several occasions recently where an AI could easily have
> accomplished what I was trying to do.? It makes me nervous what my bank allows without confirmation or passcodes... while
> simultaneously upping security to absurd levels on other transactions.

I often thought about if a bank would start to offer yesterdays product, 
as tomorrows security product. Imagine... dear customer, if you are afraid 
of getting scammed, sign up for security+ where no transactions can be 
done online. You have to come to the office, in person, to perform them. 
;)

> -Kelly
> 
> On Wed, Dec 25, 2024, 5:04 AM BillK via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>       It only takes three seconds of audio content for AI to clone someone?s
>       voice. And one call from a scammer to trick you into thinking a
>       ?friend? needs money.
>       Scammers will often use a method called spoofing, which is when they
>       make a call or text look like it?s coming from someone you know.
>       AI is making it too easy to fake videos, phone calls or texts.
>
>       BillK
>
>       ---------------------------
>       You need to create a secret password with your family
>       written by Elijah? ? ? ?December 25, 2024
>
>       <https://whatsnew2day.com/you-need-to-create-a-secret-password-with-your-family/>
>       Quotes:
>       There have been increasing calls for people, and particularly
>       families, to create passphrases or passwords for each other. In early
>       December, the FBI issued a recommendation that people create a ?secret
>       word or phrase with their family to verify their identity,? and
>       British bank Starling has also published guidelines on how to create
>       safe phrases with other people. It?s a simple, if not new, approach
>       that can be potentially effective. For example, if you receive a
>       message or call from your ?son? or ?daughter? urgently asking for
>       money to get out of a tight spot, asking them to provide a previously
>       agreed-upon passphrase can reveal whether it is really them.
>       -------------------------
>
>       _______________________________________________
>       extropy-chat mailing list
>       extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>       http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 
> 
>

From efc at disroot.org  Fri Dec 27 16:28:22 2024
From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2024 17:28:22 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] o3
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnB5RZfwtV8dykUVtL4upVSOopy1R1hLzKOP9d0z2KqpQg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnB5RZfwtV8dykUVtL4upVSOopy1R1hLzKOP9d0z2KqpQg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ab5b1ec8-c114-22c1-e44c-28bbd9ef04cc@disroot.org>



On Fri, 27 Dec 2024, Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat wrote:

> I may have missed it here... but for anyone living under certain rocks... QpenAI just did for math what Alpha Go did for go. o3 is
> super human at math.?
> It's supposedly also world class at competitive programming, ranking in the top 200 competitive programmers. I'm not as sure that
> programmers are quite as doomed as mathematicians, yet... as I don't know what percentage of programmers participate in such
> events....
> 
> Putting all of this in context though... it's thousands of dollars per answer in current server time. But that's just a matter of
> time or money. The algorithms work. Dayum.
> 
> -Kelly

Sounds exciting! Wake me up when it has won a Fields medal. Then I will be 
even more excited! ;)

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Dec 27 16:36:13 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2024 08:36:13 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Do you have a secret family pass phrase?
In-Reply-To: <196d56ab-1429-4ef9-c175-5da25ba2e602@disroot.org>
References: <CAL_armjDNtdP6R2fwRdTbOXyghwssQufDjx1gschBBNvuCYnSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <ff032f96-8f58-9e4d-37dc-fef5cdcaa71e@disroot.org>
 <CAPiwVB55CsksyfW1Dzm2gBzYodAzfG--gEt4g4aFDZ6M90E9UQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9e9f90aa-b5d4-ca2c-f1da-dfb532e663c4@disroot.org>
 <CAPiwVB5zhQ9WxQyjMXjd7AobfQ8F3hgHboeSioVkC43w-DuuWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <196d56ab-1429-4ef9-c175-5da25ba2e602@disroot.org>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4WkjS9t1Y3WJd+scbssqSo0mo5sWMnoPMajP9J2coyww@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 27, 2024 at 3:55?AM efc--- via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Thu, 26 Dec 2024, Keith Henson wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Dec 26, 2024 at 2:56?AM efc--- via extropy-chat
> > <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Wed, 25 Dec 2024, Keith Henson wrote:
> >>
> >>> The scientology cult tried this on me some years ago.  It did not
> >>> work, but it came close.
> >>
> >> I have memories of those weirdoes.
> >
> > https://www.academia.edu/37893481/Sex_Drugs_and_Cults_An_evolutionary_psychology_perspective_on_why_and_how_cult_memes_get_a_drug_like_hold_on_people_and_what_might_be_done_to_mitigate_the_effects
> >
> > I tangled with them originally over their attempt to censor the net.
> >
> > After a short time, I started to wonder what was wrong with these
> > people.  At about the same time I discovered evolutionary psychology
> > In short, humans have evolved vulnerabilities to attention.  There is
> > a sound evolutionary reason why people are highly rewarded by
> > attention. Status is more or less integrated attention, and high
> > status (at least in males) makes you more likely to be an ancestor.
> > For some people, attention is as addicting as drugs.  And cults
> > provide attention.
>
> Makes a lot of sense. How hard is it to change these innate tendencies and
> behaviours?

Consider the problems people have with addictive drugs.  Hard,
sometimes impossible.  People do age out of this class of behavior.
This makes sense, reproductive related behavior declines in importance
as people get older.

Eventually, MAGA will be considered a cult.  It's not new, the US has
been swept with this general class of memes before.

I suspect there is a big genetic component.  The Mormons trawled
through Europe for those susceptible to cult memes.  Among the
scientology cult members, my observation is that people with a Mormon
background are overrepresented.

Keith

> > Keith
> >
> >> The first time I visited New York, I
> >> must have been 11 or so, they had this tradition of having a TV on the
> >> side walk. Being from sweden, I'd never seen that before and stopped to watch.
> >>
> >> After a few second some guy came up and started to talk with me, and soon
> >> my father saw that and came to the rescue. Very weird people!
> >>
> >> The only recruiters I've met the past 2 decades are Jehovas witnesses
> >> (they sent 3 photo models to my home early on a sunday morning.) and
> >> mormons. The mormons often seem more afraid of me, than I of them, when we
> >> start to discuss philosophy and they soon tire of the conversation. ;)
> >>
> >>> Keith
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Dec 25, 2024 at 1:43?PM efc--- via extropy-chat
> >>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Wed, 25 Dec 2024, BillK via extropy-chat wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> It only takes three seconds of audio content for AI to clone someone?s
> >>>>> voice. And one call from a scammer to trick you into thinking a
> >>>>> ?friend? needs money.
> >>>>> Scammers will often use a method called spoofing, which is when they
> >>>>> make a call or text look like it?s coming from someone you know.
> >>>>> AI is making it too easy to fake videos, phone calls or texts.
> >>>>
> >>>> Actually I don't. The most common attack vector (currently) when it comes
> >>>> to scams is to trick old people into using their digital ID:s to confirm
> >>>> money transfers.
> >>>>
> >>>> I've forbidden my father to use digital ID, and only use the traditional
> >>>> method of walking down to the bank office and physically show them his ID,
> >>>> so should anyone try a scam, he is first of all very suspicious, and
> >>>> second of all, nothing can be done by phone, and third, there's a natural
> >>>> cool off period since he had to walk to the bank, and finally, I and the
> >>>> bank will also have opportunities to say something.
> >>>>
> >>>> When it comes to my wife and I, just the question of any transfers of any
> >>>> kind would raise suspicion instantly so no code word there either.
> >>>>
> >>>>> BillK
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ---------------------------
> >>>>> You need to create a secret password with your family
> >>>>> written by Elijah       December 25, 2024
> >>>>>
> >>>>> <https://whatsnew2day.com/you-need-to-create-a-secret-password-with-your-family/>
> >>>>> Quotes:
> >>>>> There have been increasing calls for people, and particularly
> >>>>> families, to create passphrases or passwords for each other. In early
> >>>>> December, the FBI issued a recommendation that people create a ?secret
> >>>>> word or phrase with their family to verify their identity,? and
> >>>>> British bank Starling has also published guidelines on how to create
> >>>>> safe phrases with other people. It?s a simple, if not new, approach
> >>>>> that can be potentially effective. For example, if you receive a
> >>>>> message or call from your ?son? or ?daughter? urgently asking for
> >>>>> money to get out of a tight spot, asking them to provide a previously
> >>>>> agreed-upon passphrase can reveal whether it is really them.
> >>>>> -------------------------
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
> >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat_______________________________________________
> >>>> extropy-chat mailing list
> >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >> extropy-chat mailing list
> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >_______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Dec 27 18:23:32 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2024 18:23:32 +0000
Subject: [ExI] o3
In-Reply-To: <ab5b1ec8-c114-22c1-e44c-28bbd9ef04cc@disroot.org>
References: <CACBESnB5RZfwtV8dykUVtL4upVSOopy1R1hLzKOP9d0z2KqpQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <ab5b1ec8-c114-22c1-e44c-28bbd9ef04cc@disroot.org>
Message-ID: <CAL_armg=PGKmqQOKo9WdSXYxgACkGqC4VAusqGrG=_ChfMQ8iA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 27 Dec 2024 at 16:30, efc--- via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> Sounds exciting! Wake me up when it has won a Fields medal. Then I will be
> even more excited! ;)
_______________________________________________

Article just published describes the abilities of OpenAI o3.
And the pricing!
BillK

<https://www.geeky-gadgets.com/openai-o3-ai-model-costs/>
The Shocking Costs Behind OpenAI?s o3 AI Model ? Is It Worth It?
December 27, 2024 By Julian Horsey
Quote:
High Compute Mode: Can cost thousands of dollars per task, with one
report estimating $350,000 for solving the ARC (Abstraction and
Reasoning Corpus) Prize benchmarks. This included processing 5.7
billion tokens over 16 hours for some tasks.
------------------


From bronto at pobox.com  Fri Dec 27 23:56:49 2024
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2024 15:56:49 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Do you have a secret family pass phrase?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjDNtdP6R2fwRdTbOXyghwssQufDjx1gschBBNvuCYnSg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjDNtdP6R2fwRdTbOXyghwssQufDjx1gschBBNvuCYnSg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5d4c6e6d-0073-4926-be40-c1510bb153ed@pobox.com>

> You need to create a secret password with your family

If the caller purports to be my father, I'll ask him in his second-best 
language to tell me in my second-best language what he needs and why he 
didn't call any of several others ahead of me.

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org


From efc at disroot.org  Fri Dec 27 23:57:17 2024
From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2024 00:57:17 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Do you have a secret family pass phrase?
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB4WkjS9t1Y3WJd+scbssqSo0mo5sWMnoPMajP9J2coyww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjDNtdP6R2fwRdTbOXyghwssQufDjx1gschBBNvuCYnSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <ff032f96-8f58-9e4d-37dc-fef5cdcaa71e@disroot.org>
 <CAPiwVB55CsksyfW1Dzm2gBzYodAzfG--gEt4g4aFDZ6M90E9UQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9e9f90aa-b5d4-ca2c-f1da-dfb532e663c4@disroot.org>
 <CAPiwVB5zhQ9WxQyjMXjd7AobfQ8F3hgHboeSioVkC43w-DuuWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <196d56ab-1429-4ef9-c175-5da25ba2e602@disroot.org>
 <CAPiwVB4WkjS9t1Y3WJd+scbssqSo0mo5sWMnoPMajP9J2coyww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46c1e59b-bfd7-dd39-b6b6-3f39bf6120db@disroot.org>



On Fri, 27 Dec 2024, Keith Henson wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 27, 2024 at 3:55?AM efc--- via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 26 Dec 2024, Keith Henson wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 26, 2024 at 2:56?AM efc--- via extropy-chat
>>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 25 Dec 2024, Keith Henson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The scientology cult tried this on me some years ago.  It did not
>>>>> work, but it came close.
>>>>
>>>> I have memories of those weirdoes.
>>>
>>> https://www.academia.edu/37893481/Sex_Drugs_and_Cults_An_evolutionary_psychology_perspective_on_why_and_how_cult_memes_get_a_drug_like_hold_on_people_and_what_might_be_done_to_mitigate_the_effects
>>>
>>> I tangled with them originally over their attempt to censor the net.
>>>
>>> After a short time, I started to wonder what was wrong with these
>>> people.  At about the same time I discovered evolutionary psychology
>>> In short, humans have evolved vulnerabilities to attention.  There is
>>> a sound evolutionary reason why people are highly rewarded by
>>> attention. Status is more or less integrated attention, and high
>>> status (at least in males) makes you more likely to be an ancestor.
>>> For some people, attention is as addicting as drugs.  And cults
>>> provide attention.
>>
>> Makes a lot of sense. How hard is it to change these innate tendencies and
>> behaviours?
>
> Consider the problems people have with addictive drugs.  Hard,
> sometimes impossible.  People do age out of this class of behavior.
> This makes sense, reproductive related behavior declines in importance
> as people get older.
>
> Eventually, MAGA will be considered a cult.  It's not new, the US has
> been swept with this general class of memes before.

This is very interesting! I just received my MAGA hat from the US last 
week, and I am using it by wearing it in town to test the strength of 
polarization and freedom of expression where I am. It has yielded a
fair amount of evil eyes, but no comments so far. I am very satisfied with this result!

> I suspect there is a big genetic component.  The Mormons trawled
> through Europe for those susceptible to cult memes.  Among the
> scientology cult members, my observation is that people with a Mormon
> background are overrepresented.
>
> Keith
>
>>> Keith
>>>
>>>> The first time I visited New York, I
>>>> must have been 11 or so, they had this tradition of having a TV on the
>>>> side walk. Being from sweden, I'd never seen that before and stopped to watch.
>>>>
>>>> After a few second some guy came up and started to talk with me, and soon
>>>> my father saw that and came to the rescue. Very weird people!
>>>>
>>>> The only recruiters I've met the past 2 decades are Jehovas witnesses
>>>> (they sent 3 photo models to my home early on a sunday morning.) and
>>>> mormons. The mormons often seem more afraid of me, than I of them, when we
>>>> start to discuss philosophy and they soon tire of the conversation. ;)
>>>>
>>>>> Keith
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Dec 25, 2024 at 1:43?PM efc--- via extropy-chat
>>>>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 25 Dec 2024, BillK via extropy-chat wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It only takes three seconds of audio content for AI to clone someone?s
>>>>>>> voice. And one call from a scammer to trick you into thinking a
>>>>>>> ?friend? needs money.
>>>>>>> Scammers will often use a method called spoofing, which is when they
>>>>>>> make a call or text look like it?s coming from someone you know.
>>>>>>> AI is making it too easy to fake videos, phone calls or texts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Actually I don't. The most common attack vector (currently) when it comes
>>>>>> to scams is to trick old people into using their digital ID:s to confirm
>>>>>> money transfers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've forbidden my father to use digital ID, and only use the traditional
>>>>>> method of walking down to the bank office and physically show them his ID,
>>>>>> so should anyone try a scam, he is first of all very suspicious, and
>>>>>> second of all, nothing can be done by phone, and third, there's a natural
>>>>>> cool off period since he had to walk to the bank, and finally, I and the
>>>>>> bank will also have opportunities to say something.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When it comes to my wife and I, just the question of any transfers of any
>>>>>> kind would raise suspicion instantly so no code word there either.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> BillK
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ---------------------------
>>>>>>> You need to create a secret password with your family
>>>>>>> written by Elijah       December 25, 2024
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://whatsnew2day.com/you-need-to-create-a-secret-password-with-your-family/>
>>>>>>> Quotes:
>>>>>>> There have been increasing calls for people, and particularly
>>>>>>> families, to create passphrases or passwords for each other. In early
>>>>>>> December, the FBI issued a recommendation that people create a ?secret
>>>>>>> word or phrase with their family to verify their identity,? and
>>>>>>> British bank Starling has also published guidelines on how to create
>>>>>>> safe phrases with other people. It?s a simple, if not new, approach
>>>>>>> that can be potentially effective. For example, if you receive a
>>>>>>> message or call from your ?son? or ?daughter? urgently asking for
>>>>>>> money to get out of a tight spot, asking them to provide a previously
>>>>>>> agreed-upon passphrase can reveal whether it is really them.
>>>>>>> -------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat_______________________________________________
>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>

From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Dec 28 21:32:28 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2024 13:32:28 -0800
Subject: [ExI] very asian gold box?
Message-ID: <00b301db596f$ff6c9670$fe45c350$@rainier66.com>

 

 

There are many fans of Hofstader's Eternal Golden Braid here as I recall.  I
noted to a young friend that it is the most letter-perfect book I have ever
read, as I don't recall seeing a single typo in it.  He found two, and I
found a third, right together on page 404:

 

Tortoise: Now whatver has come over you, Achilles?  Well, thank you for your
outstandig generosity, and I hope you have sweet dreams about the strange
Golbach Conjecture, and its Variation.  Good night.

 

 

 

 

The same sentence has omitted three letters, the e in whatever, the n in
outstanding, and the d in Goldbach.  It is on page 404.  So e, n, d are
missing, all in the same sentence.  Are there any computer jockeys here who
can suggest reasons why Hofstadter would have omitted e, n, d?

 

Please also, what is the Variation of Goldbach's conjecture?

 

spike

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From dsunley at gmail.com  Sat Dec 28 21:38:03 2024
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2024 14:38:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] very asian gold box?
In-Reply-To: <00b301db596f$ff6c9670$fe45c350$@rainier66.com>
References: <00b301db596f$ff6c9670$fe45c350$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAEptUkRm0TBESB81LdhCbsi2x9QiOg3G_hb_UdaB4xp+1=vvtw@mail.gmail.com>

The Goldberg Variations are a set of compositions by JD Bach.

Hofstadter, as is his won't, is being clever.

On Sat, Dec 28, 2024, 2:34 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> There are many fans of Hofstader?s Eternal Golden Braid here as I recall.
> I noted to a young friend that it is the most letter-perfect book I have
> ever read, as I don?t recall seeing a single typo in it.  He found two, and
> I found a third, right together on page 404:
>
>
>
> Tortoise: Now whatver has come over you, Achilles?  Well, thank you for
> your outstandig generosity, and I hope you have sweet dreams about the
> strange Golbach Conjecture, and its Variation.  Good night.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The same sentence has omitted three letters, the e in whatever, the n in
> outstanding, and the d in Goldbach.  It is on page 404.  So e, n, d are
> missing, all in the same sentence.  Are there any computer jockeys here who
> can suggest reasons why Hofstadter would have omitted e, n, d?
>
>
>
> Please also, what is the Variation of Goldbach?s conjecture?
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Dec 28 22:23:10 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2024 14:23:10 -0800
Subject: [ExI] very asian gold box?
In-Reply-To: <CAEptUkRm0TBESB81LdhCbsi2x9QiOg3G_hb_UdaB4xp+1=vvtw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00b301db596f$ff6c9670$fe45c350$@rainier66.com>
 <CAEptUkRm0TBESB81LdhCbsi2x9QiOg3G_hb_UdaB4xp+1=vvtw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00c601db5977$147c91d0$3d75b570$@rainier66.com>

 

 

Cool so what might that sly Hofstadter have been signaling with the missing e, n, d?

 

spike

 

 

From: Darin Sunley <dsunley at gmail.com> 
Sent: Saturday, 28 December, 2024 1:38 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: spike at rainier66.com
Subject: Re: [ExI] very asian gold box?

 

The Goldberg Variations are a set of compositions by JD Bach.

Hofstadter, as is his won't, is being clever.

 

On Sat, Dec 28, 2024, 2:34 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

 

 

There are many fans of Hofstader?s Eternal Golden Braid here as I recall.  I noted to a young friend that it is the most letter-perfect book I have ever read, as I don?t recall seeing a single typo in it.  He found two, and I found a third, right together on page 404:

 

Tortoise: Now whatver has come over you, Achilles?  Well, thank you for your outstandig generosity, and I hope you have sweet dreams about the strange Golbach Conjecture, and its Variation.  Good night.

 

 

 

 

The same sentence has omitted three letters, the e in whatever, the n in outstanding, and the d in Goldbach.  It is on page 404.  So e, n, d are missing, all in the same sentence.  Are there any computer jockeys here who can suggest reasons why Hofstadter would have omitted e, n, d?

 

Please also, what is the Variation of Goldbach?s conjecture?

 

spike

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Dec 28 22:23:49 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2024 22:23:49 +0000
Subject: [ExI] very asian gold box?
In-Reply-To: <00b301db596f$ff6c9670$fe45c350$@rainier66.com>
References: <00b301db596f$ff6c9670$fe45c350$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjyRkS1zoa=9qwPz971_ydBHGVkOHbgyM53FM9=UhxRiw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 28 Dec 2024 at 21:35, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> There are many fans of Hofstader?s Eternal Golden Braid here as I recall.  I noted to a young friend that it is the most letter-perfect book I have ever read, as I don?t recall seeing a single typo in it.  He found two, and I found a third, right together on page 404:
>
> Tortoise: Now whatver has come over you, Achilles?  Well, thank you for your outstandig generosity, and I hope you have sweet dreams about the strange Golbach Conjecture, and its Variation.  Good night.
>
> The same sentence has omitted three letters, the e in whatever, the n in outstanding, and the d in Goldbach.  It is on page 404.  So e, n, d are missing, all in the same sentence.  Are there any computer jockeys here who can suggest reasons why Hofstadter would have omitted e, n, d?
>
> Please also, what is the Variation of Goldbach?s conjecture?
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


I think this is what you are looking for.
<https://thatsmaths.com/2022/07/14/goldbachs-conjecture-and-goldbachs-variation/>
Quote:
In his book G?del, Escher, Bach: an Eternal Golden Braid, published in
1979, Douglas Hofstadter discussed an interesting modification of
Goldbach?s Conjecture that he called Goldbach?s Variation. He wondered
if any even number can be expressed as the difference of two odd
primes.
-----------

Found with the help of Perplexity Pro AI.    :)
BillK


From danust2012 at gmail.com  Sat Dec 28 22:26:06 2024
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2024 14:26:06 -0800
Subject: [ExI] very asian gold box?
In-Reply-To: <CAEptUkRm0TBESB81LdhCbsi2x9QiOg3G_hb_UdaB4xp+1=vvtw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEptUkRm0TBESB81LdhCbsi2x9QiOg3G_hb_UdaB4xp+1=vvtw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <377090B9-7DF1-4F6B-80E6-33E5CAABF1F3@gmail.com>

On Dec 28, 2024, at 1:39?PM, Darin Sunley via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> The Goldberg Variations are a set of compositions by JD Bach.
> Hofstadter, as is his won't, is being clever.
> 

J. S. Bach.

Happy holidays!

Dan
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Dec 28 23:18:05 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2024 23:18:05 +0000
Subject: [ExI] very asian gold box?
In-Reply-To: <00c601db5977$147c91d0$3d75b570$@rainier66.com>
References: <00b301db596f$ff6c9670$fe45c350$@rainier66.com>
 <CAEptUkRm0TBESB81LdhCbsi2x9QiOg3G_hb_UdaB4xp+1=vvtw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c601db5977$147c91d0$3d75b570$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armiDqr1t8REQ2TJo31epCa+6uGv_yBur-wQLiZunuVgGRg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 28 Dec 2024 at 22:25, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> Cool so what might that sly Hofstadter have been signaling with the missing e, n, d?
> spike
> _______________________________________________

These typos don't appear in the Internet Archive edition of
G?del, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid.
<https://archive.org/details/douglas-hofstadter-godel-escher-bach-an-eternal-golden-braid>

Perhaps they are just typos, and corrected in later editions.

BillK


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sat Dec 28 23:30:09 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2024 15:30:09 -0800
Subject: [ExI] very asian gold box?
In-Reply-To: <377090B9-7DF1-4F6B-80E6-33E5CAABF1F3@gmail.com>
References: <CAEptUkRm0TBESB81LdhCbsi2x9QiOg3G_hb_UdaB4xp+1=vvtw@mail.gmail.com>
 <377090B9-7DF1-4F6B-80E6-33E5CAABF1F3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4NZH9dZVM4kJEGHTVneASFSjuNyevte5mqjXJtU4ufHg@mail.gmail.com>

Hofstadter twice had me edit his Wikipedia page when it got out of
date.  The last time was 12 years ago.

Time flies (like an arrow).

Keith


Keith

On Sat, Dec 28, 2024 at 2:27?PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> On Dec 28, 2024, at 1:39?PM, Darin Sunley via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> The Goldberg Variations are a set of compositions by JD Bach.
>
> Hofstadter, as is his won't, is being clever.
>
>
> J. S. Bach.
>
> Happy holidays!
>
> Dan
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Dec 29 00:04:38 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2024 16:04:38 -0800
Subject: [ExI] very asian gold box?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armiDqr1t8REQ2TJo31epCa+6uGv_yBur-wQLiZunuVgGRg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00b301db596f$ff6c9670$fe45c350$@rainier66.com>
 <CAEptUkRm0TBESB81LdhCbsi2x9QiOg3G_hb_UdaB4xp+1=vvtw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c601db5977$147c91d0$3d75b570$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armiDqr1t8REQ2TJo31epCa+6uGv_yBur-wQLiZunuVgGRg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <010b01db5985$414624c0$c3d26e40$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat
Sent: Saturday, 28 December, 2024 3:18 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: BillK <pharos at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] very asian gold box?

On Sat, 28 Dec 2024 at 22:25, spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> Cool so what might that sly Hofstadter have been signaling with the missing e, n, d?
> spike
> _______________________________________________

These typos don't appear in the Internet Archive edition of G?del, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid.
<https://archive.org/details/douglas-hofstadter-godel-escher-bach-an-eternal-golden-braid>

Perhaps they are just typos, and corrected in later editions.

BillK

_______________________________________________



That's what I thought too.  But my son won a math contest, the prize being a copy of GEB.  (Is that cool or what?)  His copy was printing 36, dated 2023.  My copy was printed in September 1980.  Jillions of obsessive geeks have pored over that work with a microscope.  That triple omission would be spotted a thousand times.  Had it been unintentional, it would have been corrected in 43 years methinks.

I saw that electronic copy and noticed it had at least one error that is not in the paper copy.  I speculate that those responsible for the editorial corrections were unaware that the missed e, n, d might have been intentional.  

spike



From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Dec 29 00:16:02 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2024 16:16:02 -0800
Subject: [ExI] very asian gold box?
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB4NZH9dZVM4kJEGHTVneASFSjuNyevte5mqjXJtU4ufHg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEptUkRm0TBESB81LdhCbsi2x9QiOg3G_hb_UdaB4xp+1=vvtw@mail.gmail.com>
 <377090B9-7DF1-4F6B-80E6-33E5CAABF1F3@gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB4NZH9dZVM4kJEGHTVneASFSjuNyevte5mqjXJtU4ufHg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <011e01db5986$d890f570$89b2e050$@rainier66.com>


...> On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] very asian gold box?

>...Hofstadter twice had me edit his Wikipedia page when it got out of date.  The last time was 12 years ago...

KIETH!  How cool is THAT!  I am in awe of myself for being friends with the guy who interacted with The DOUG!

Keith you know everybody that matters in this world.  Thanks for mentioning it.

>...Time flies (like an arrow).  Keith

Ja.  Fruit flies like a banana.

spike



From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Dec 29 01:09:38 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2024 17:09:38 -0800
Subject: [ExI] very asian gold box?
In-Reply-To: <010b01db5985$414624c0$c3d26e40$@rainier66.com>
References: <00b301db596f$ff6c9670$fe45c350$@rainier66.com>
 <CAEptUkRm0TBESB81LdhCbsi2x9QiOg3G_hb_UdaB4xp+1=vvtw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c601db5977$147c91d0$3d75b570$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armiDqr1t8REQ2TJo31epCa+6uGv_yBur-wQLiZunuVgGRg@mail.gmail.com>
 <010b01db5985$414624c0$c3d26e40$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <002101db598e$560a3820$021ea860$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 

> Cool so what might that sly Hofstadter have been signaling with the missing e, n, d?
> spike
> _______________________________________________

These typos don't appear in the Internet Archive edition of G?del, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid.
<https://archive.org/details/douglas-hofstadter-godel-escher-bach-an-eternal-golden-braid>

Perhaps they are just typos, and corrected in later editions.

BillK

_______________________________________________



>...That's what I thought too.  But my son won a math contest, the prize being a copy of GEB.  (Is that cool or what?)  His copy was printing 36, dated 2023.  My copy was printed in September 1980.  Jillions of obsessive geeks have pored over that work with a microscope.  That triple omission would be spotted a thousand times.  Had it been unintentional, it would have been corrected in 43 years methinks.

>...I saw that electronic copy and noticed it had at least one error that is not in the paper copy.  I speculate that those responsible for the editorial corrections were unaware that the missed e, n, d might have been intentional.  

spike








BillK, if you have a paper copy, notice the three omitted letters form a line.  Get a straight edge, verify please, page 404, near the bottom of the page.



From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Dec 29 01:52:11 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2024 20:52:11 -0500
Subject: [ExI] very asian gold box?
In-Reply-To: <011e01db5986$d890f570$89b2e050$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAEptUkRm0TBESB81LdhCbsi2x9QiOg3G_hb_UdaB4xp+1=vvtw@mail.gmail.com>
 <377090B9-7DF1-4F6B-80E6-33E5CAABF1F3@gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB4NZH9dZVM4kJEGHTVneASFSjuNyevte5mqjXJtU4ufHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <011e01db5986$d890f570$89b2e050$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTe0As3wmYAsEfzPdi9Sc=7qtPALPyrkFwC=9uGq-Oc0g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 28, 2024 at 7:17?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> ...> On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat
> Subject: Re: [ExI] very asian gold box?
>
> >...Time flies (like an arrow).  Keith
>
> Ja.  Fruit flies like a banana.
>

And pop flies, like, ruin an at-bat.
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sun Dec 29 01:58:57 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2024 17:58:57 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [SRI-FORUM] Re: [SRI-UN:97] peace in space - - -Bring
 back the Apollo-Soyuz model with Volodia Ring
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7RjjdDftBFL3e5raq_dW0RwqjE0kZdaut7CBzugoUMyw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <225684260.2183723.1735240521334.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <225684260.2183723.1735240521334@mail.yahoo.com>
 <227380425.7235382.1735250169796@mail.yahoo.com>
 <39371251.3971640.1735255719034@mail.yahoo.com>
 <402966523.7265084.1735258281454@mail.yahoo.com>
 <8de105fb-1d69-44a2-90ed-192bf3a4bb8a@science-sainte-rose.net>
 <CAPiwVB4CvSrVE9LW=wB6jeSaJzG8Kb91rBtiC0_hybCVSV9F7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACLqmgcZXpbbVws7yS_aMHhe5AeySEKrcRb+b9qsg94XiMq7XA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB6RJ6Do6uWFhF0ucbqT4_Pun_W1e01=cWKV7ArmbxWFkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACLqmgdiA583CCVuhgbbEht3dkugsouRfGKm+VE+d4FmEkSQqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7RjjdDftBFL3e5raq_dW0RwqjE0kZdaut7CBzugoUMyw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7+Vti3A9YPGO=zAj-u9iYCZcbzgqs3gnuDQ8NQFZ=K+Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 28, 2024 at 6:07?AM Paul Werbos <paul.werbos at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi, Keith!
>
snip
>
> I probably should have collected my own papers making connections across this complicated field, as we discussed in past years.

A huge project for you.  Not being an academic I have only a few papers.

> Certainly game theory is ONE crucial foundation, and you often rightly mention genetic

Agree.  Evolutionary psychology incorporates game theory as a
foundation element.  Lots of papers, particularly by Trivers  In
short, EP states that behavior is as much an outcome of evolution as
any physical trait. Expanding, every behavior is either directly
selected or a side effect of something that was selected.  Capture
bonding is one of the first class, easy to see how this was selected.
https://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Capture-bonding  The Patty Hearst
events are rare today, but they were common in the past to the point
the evolved psychological traits are nearly universal in humans.

It is important in EP to understand when and in what environment the
selection took place.  The Environment of Evolutionary Adaptiveness
(EEA) for capture-bonding was a long time ago.  The selection for the
traits leading to wealth in the U.K. (Gregory Clark's work) is more
recent, the selection only ending in about 1800.

Drug addiction is a side effect of the evolution of brain reward
systems.  There is no logical way it could be selected.

>> *IF* AIs make us wealthy, that might end wars.

The model shows a strong selection against psychological traits
for war when people anticipate a favorable future.

snip

> the one dealing with hard core physical reality, but I see few people interested in reality these days.)

True.  Or physical projects of any kind.

>> If you still have contacts with the IEEE power folks, we should talk.
>
> I do. Just yesterday a key IEEE/PES person visited us here. I have been pulled away into other things, like my new patent
> https://patents.justia.com/patent/12118434 which addresses how "Schrodinger cats" can multiply power a million fold in
> all types of "deep learning," like optimizing nonconvex functions and network management problems which reduce to minimizing or maximizing nonconvex functions.
> HE is also distracted now by lots of promotion options... and he says it is time to look for a new leader
> of what I started under him years ago https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1acZRpjyjCLoQuqzJef74e0cmHeyoKJdr?usp=sharing.
> I cc the three people I think off, just now, as the most credible people I could think of right now. Veronika Rabl, in particular, was the leader for the section on
> refueling transportation, and is better connected with IEEEUSA now than I am, in part because I stepped on some nuclear toes.
>
> But you and I and many other key people also have problems with aging lately (except for those who suffer from so much dementia that they blind themselves to that).
> There IS crucial new S&T to seriously reduce that problem, but the politics of allowing it are as complicated as space politics, maybe more, with just as many problems with conflicts of interest and vested interests.
>>
>> It is possible to use excess renewable energy, trash, coal, or other
>> sources of carbon to make syngas which can be made into jet fuel and
>> diesel.
>
> werbos.com/oil.htm introduces another major thread of my life, which worked hard to do full justice to that. George Bush Junior
> got a law passed EISA which intended to maximize that, and the bill from Specter posted on my web site was designed to fix the regulations which
> destroyed EISA "in the dark of the night," the process of translating laws into regulations. The IEEE climate book needs a new leader, it seems,
> now that Mankins pulled out due to crazy complexities in space politics.

Power from space is a winner over ground PV when steady power reduces
the capital expenses of an industrial project like CO2 capture by a
factor of 3.

As far as I can see, I was the first to propose using intermittent
power for heat to make syngas.  No wonder, it is counterintuitive to
use expensive electrical power to make cheap hydrocarbons.  But if the
gasifiers are cheap enough, landfill trash is free, the excess power
is nearly free, and you can store the syngas, the economics work out
to make fuel cheaper than oil.

Spreading the concept to the technical people (and having it verified)
is the next step.  Not sure if a political stage is needed or if the
ideas should go directly to the oil companies who can process syngas
through F/T to make valuable products.

>> PS If you want to see how it all works out and think you might not
>> live into that era, consider cryonics.
>
> Jose Cordeiro, a leader of the Millennium Project international network, claims that Milei of Argentina loves his book
> entitled something like "death to death." He got me invited many years ago to the big futurist meeting in Palo Alto hosted by NASA,
> when cryonics was already old hat and well understood by some of us. But there are much better options, much more human-centric,
> which is what we need.
>
Radical life extension would be much better than cryonics, I agree.
So does Ray Kurzweil who has put some near-term dates on it.  But he
is still signed up for cryonics.

You never know when you will be run over by a turnip truck.  Please
sign up and let us know.

>> I signed up 40 years ago when it looked like human migration into
>> space would take longer than I had and nanotechnology provided a path
>> to make it work.
>>
Keith
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Henson


From dsunley at gmail.com  Sun Dec 29 03:37:42 2024
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2024 20:37:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] very asian gold box?
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTe0As3wmYAsEfzPdi9Sc=7qtPALPyrkFwC=9uGq-Oc0g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEptUkRm0TBESB81LdhCbsi2x9QiOg3G_hb_UdaB4xp+1=vvtw@mail.gmail.com>
 <377090B9-7DF1-4F6B-80E6-33E5CAABF1F3@gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB4NZH9dZVM4kJEGHTVneASFSjuNyevte5mqjXJtU4ufHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <011e01db5986$d890f570$89b2e050$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNTe0As3wmYAsEfzPdi9Sc=7qtPALPyrkFwC=9uGq-Oc0g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEptUkSdgB51UjtGPDgWyXYpJ-7AAGZBU7Aha7pq+wJy1unD0g@mail.gmail.com>

Language is hard, but significantly less hard if you throw 22 floating
point numbers at each token as a default embedding, then tweak those with
several tens of billions of neurons worth of multi-headed attention layers.

On Sat, Dec 28, 2024 at 6:53?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Sat, Dec 28, 2024 at 7:17?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> ...> On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat
>> Subject: Re: [ExI] very asian gold box?
>>
>> >...Time flies (like an arrow).  Keith
>>
>> Ja.  Fruit flies like a banana.
>>
>
> And pop flies, like, ruin an at-bat.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From avant at sollegro.com  Sun Dec 29 04:42:03 2024
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2024 20:42:03 -0800
Subject: [ExI] very asian gold box?
In-Reply-To: <00b301db596f$ff6c9670$fe45c350$@rainier66.com>
References: <00b301db596f$ff6c9670$fe45c350$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <6603c62345e5f5add280d5c8d61349bb@sollegro.com>

On 2024-12-28 13:32, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:
> There are many fans of Hofstader's Eternal Golden Braid here as I
> recall.  I noted to a young friend that it is the most letter-perfect
> book I have ever read, as I don't recall seeing a single typo in it.
> He found two, and I found a third, right together on page 404:
> 
> Tortoise: Now whatver has come over you, Achilles?  Well, thank you
> for your outstandig generosity, and I hope you have sweet dreams about
> the strange Golbach Conjecture, and its Variation.  Good night.
> 
> The same sentence has omitted three letters, the e in whatever, the n
> in outstanding, and the d in Goldbach.  It is on page 404.  So e, n, d
> are missing, all in the same sentence.  Are there any computer jockeys
> here who can suggest reasons why Hofstadter would have omitted e, n,
> d?

Could it be a pun of omission? E, n, d spell "end" and that sentence is 
therefore "endless" which is a synonym for eternal as in "Eternal Golden 
Braid".

> Please also, what is the Variation of Goldbach's conjecture?

There are a lot of variations of the Goldbach Conjecture that are 
possible and therefore, I do not know which in particular Hofstader was 
referring to. One variation that I myself came up with is that every 
integer greater than 3 is the arithmetic mean of or, exactly halfway in 
between, at least one pair of prime numbers.

Stuart LaForge

From avant at sollegro.com  Sun Dec 29 05:04:19 2024
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2024 21:04:19 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Reprogramming cancer cells
Message-ID: <0941056228740d0d7792157f286b145e@sollegro.com>

These researchers at the bioengineering departments at the Korea 
Advanced Institute of Science and Technology used computational biology 
techniques to develop a Boolean model of gene regulatory networks in 
cells they call BENEIN. They then used it on human large intestinal 
single-cell transcriptome data to identify three genes MYB, HDAC2, and 
FOXA2 as "master regulatory genes" for differentiation into normal 
intestinal cells. Then they claim that they took three different colon 
cancer cell lines and by knocking down, i.e. shutting off those three 
genes, made the cancer cells back phenotypically normal large intestine 
cells.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/advs.202402132

---------Excerpt------------------

Control of Cellular Di?erentiation Trajectories for Cancer Reversion
Jeong-Ryeol Gong, Chun-Kyung Lee, Hoon-Min Kim, Juhee Kim, Jaeog Jeon, 
Sunmin Park,and Kwang-Hyun Cho*

Abstract:
Cellular di?erentiation is controlled by intricate layers of gene 
regulation, involving the modulation of gene expression by various 
transcriptional regulators. Due to the complexity of gene regulation, 
identifying master regulators across the di?erentiation trajectory has 
been a longstanding challenge. To tackle this problem, a computational 
framework, single-cell Boolean network inference and control (BENEIN), 
is presented. Applying BENEIN to human large intestinal single-cell 
transcriptome data, MYB,HDAC2, and FOXA2 are identi?ed as the master 
regulators whose inhibition induces enterocyte di?erentiation. It is 
found that simultaneous knockdown of these master regulators can revert 
colorectal cancer cells into normal-like enterocytes by synergistically 
inducing di?erentiation and suppressing malignancy, which is validated 
by in vitro and in vivo experiments.

--------------------------------------

Note that that they use "in vivo" in a biochemical sense which means 
inside a living cell and not medical "in vivo" which means inside an 
intact organism like a mouse or human.

Stuart LaForge

From avant at sollegro.com  Sun Dec 29 05:13:56 2024
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2024 21:13:56 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Reprogramming cancer cells
In-Reply-To: <0941056228740d0d7792157f286b145e@sollegro.com>
References: <0941056228740d0d7792157f286b145e@sollegro.com>
Message-ID: <a037a360349a7b7f0ae4a1570ae1dfd9@sollegro.com>

On 2024-12-28 21:04, Stuart LaForge wrote:
> These researchers at the bioengineering departments at the Korea 
> Advanced Institute of Science and Technology used computational biology 
> techniques to develop a Boolean model of gene regulatory networks in 
> cells they call BENEIN. They then used it on human large intestinal 
> single-cell transcriptome data to identify three genes MYB, HDAC2, and 
> FOXA2 as "master regulatory genes" for differentiation into normal 
> intestinal cells. Then they claim that they took three different colon 
> cancer cell lines and by knocking down, i.e. shutting off those three 
> genes, made the cancer cells back phenotypically normal large intestine 
> cells.
> 
> https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/advs.202402132
> 
> ---------Excerpt------------------
> 
> Control of Cellular Di?erentiation Trajectories for Cancer Reversion
> Jeong-Ryeol Gong, Chun-Kyung Lee, Hoon-Min Kim, Juhee Kim, Jaeog Jeon, 
> Sunmin Park,and Kwang-Hyun Cho*
> 
> Abstract:
> Cellular di?erentiation is controlled by intricate layers of gene 
> regulation, involving the modulation of gene expression by various 
> transcriptional regulators. Due to the complexity of gene regulation, 
> identifying master regulators across the di?erentiation trajectory has 
> been a longstanding challenge. To tackle this problem, a computational 
> framework, single-cell Boolean network inference and control (BENEIN), 
> is presented. Applying BENEIN to human large intestinal single-cell 
> transcriptome data, MYB,HDAC2, and FOXA2 are identi?ed as the master 
> regulators whose inhibition induces enterocyte di?erentiation. It is 
> found that simultaneous knockdown of these master regulators can revert 
> colorectal cancer cells into normal-like enterocytes by synergistically 
> inducing di?erentiation and suppressing malignancy, which is validated 
> by in vitro and in vivo experiments.
> 
> --------------------------------------
> 
> Note that that they use "in vivo" in a biochemical sense which means 
> inside a living cell and not medical "in vivo" which means inside an 
> intact organism like a mouse or human.
> 
> Stuart LaForge

Well ok. They did use grafts of the cell lines into nude mice, but that 
is barely in vivo and is very different than reversing colon cancer in a 
mouse.

Stuart LaForge

From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Dec 29 05:23:01 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2024 21:23:01 -0800
Subject: [ExI] very asian gold box?
In-Reply-To: <6603c62345e5f5add280d5c8d61349bb@sollegro.com>
References: <00b301db596f$ff6c9670$fe45c350$@rainier66.com>
 <6603c62345e5f5add280d5c8d61349bb@sollegro.com>
Message-ID: <006a01db59b1$bafe6800$30fb3800$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat
Sent: Saturday, 28 December, 2024 8:42 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] very asian gold box?

On 2024-12-28 13:32, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:
> There are many fans of Hofstader's Eternal Golden Braid here as I 
> recall.  I noted to a young friend that it is the most letter-perfect 
> book I have ever read, as I don't recall seeing a single typo in it.
> He found two, and I found a third, right together on page 404:
> 
> Tortoise: Now whatver has come over you, Achilles?  Well, thank you 
> for your outstandig generosity, and I hope you have sweet dreams about 
> the strange Golbach Conjecture, and its Variation.  Good night.
> 
> The same sentence has omitted three letters, the e in whatever, the n 
> in outstanding, and the d in Goldbach.  It is on page 404.  So e, n, d 
> are missing, all in the same sentence.  Are there any computer jockeys 
> here who can suggest reasons why Hofstadter would have omitted e, n, 
> d?

Could it be a pun of omission? E, n, d spell "end" and that sentence is
therefore "endless" which is a synonym for eternal as in "Eternal Golden
Braid".

> Please also, what is the Variation of Goldbach's conjecture?

There are a lot of variations of the Goldbach Conjecture that are possible
and therefore, I do not know which in particular Hofstader was referring to.
One variation that I myself came up with is that every integer greater than
3 is the arithmetic mean of or, exactly halfway in between, at least one
pair of prime numbers.

Stuart LaForge
_______________________________________________



Ja, from what I can tell, the Goldbach Variation is that any even number can
be expressed as the difference of two primes.  Oh how cool is that?

I also concluded it was a pun of omission.  The letters e, n, d were in a
vertical line, with the middle line having an anomalously long space before
the word outstandig.  

Stuart I think you are right on that end-less notion.

Oh that Hofstadter is a clever chap.  I want to be like him when I grow up.

spike


From ben at zaiboc.net  Sun Dec 29 17:10:04 2024
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2024 17:10:04 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Do you have a secret family pass phrase?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.25.1735310748.650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.25.1735310748.650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <7c8649ca-fd0d-47de-86a0-3c8deaf9ab19@zaiboc.net>

On 27/12/2024 14:45,?efc at disroot.org wrote:
> The mormons often seem more afraid of me, than I of them, when we 
> start to discuss philosophy and they soon tire of the conversation. ??

I've had a similar experience with Jehovah's Witnesses. It's odd that 
the god squad seem most reluctant to talk to people who seem to actually 
know something about religion! It's like mathematicians being leery of 
anyone who shows any knowledge of maths.

This may be my cynicism showing, but I suspect that it's because they 
are more interested in compliance with their particular viewpoint than 
understanding. If you want to understand things, you're obviously not 
good convert material!

I think it was Luther who said that reason is the enemy of faith. Seems 
he was right.

-- 
Ben


From dsunley at gmail.com  Sun Dec 29 17:20:24 2024
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2024 10:20:24 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Do you have a secret family pass phrase?
In-Reply-To: <7c8649ca-fd0d-47de-86a0-3c8deaf9ab19@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.25.1735310748.650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <7c8649ca-fd0d-47de-86a0-3c8deaf9ab19@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAEptUkT5ERdEN=hHbxp39UBv+bGBca_gyh=Sb5UmjLdABd1GEg@mail.gmail.com>

The LDS missionary program is only secondarily about recruiting new members
from the general population. Really, the people running the program don't
care if the nice young people in the shirts and ties and nametags ever
convince anyone of anything.

The program is designed from the ground up to cement the lifelong emotional
loyalty of the missionaries themselves, who are barely trained children
spending two years living away from home in a commune under a
complete media blackout.

The carrot is that, after they finish their stint as a missionary (which
they themselves paid tens of thousands of dollars for the privilege), they
are on a track that, if they pursue it, can take them into
senior leadership positions within the church..

They are barely equipped to even present the elevator pitch for their own
theology, much less grapple critically with anyone else's, because That Is
Not The Point.

On Sun, Dec 29, 2024 at 10:11?AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On 27/12/2024 14:45, efc at disroot.org wrote:
> > The mormons often seem more afraid of me, than I of them, when we
> > start to discuss philosophy and they soon tire of the conversation. ??
>
> I've had a similar experience with Jehovah's Witnesses. It's odd that
> the god squad seem most reluctant to talk to people who seem to actually
> know something about religion! It's like mathematicians being leery of
> anyone who shows any knowledge of maths.
>
> This may be my cynicism showing, but I suspect that it's because they
> are more interested in compliance with their particular viewpoint than
> understanding. If you want to understand things, you're obviously not
> good convert material!
>
> I think it was Luther who said that reason is the enemy of faith. Seems
> he was right.
>
> --
> Ben
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From dsunley at gmail.com  Sun Dec 29 18:50:18 2024
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2024 11:50:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Do you have a secret family pass phrase?
In-Reply-To: <CAEptUkT5ERdEN=hHbxp39UBv+bGBca_gyh=Sb5UmjLdABd1GEg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.25.1735310748.650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <7c8649ca-fd0d-47de-86a0-3c8deaf9ab19@zaiboc.net>
 <CAEptUkT5ERdEN=hHbxp39UBv+bGBca_gyh=Sb5UmjLdABd1GEg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEptUkRR-iaVjrc68eCSyR1m1UgFcqSaEtb_SUtYDBcXc8KA0Q@mail.gmail.com>

Tl;Dr, you aren't remotely cynical enough.

On Sun, Dec 29, 2024, 10:20 AM Darin Sunley <dsunley at gmail.com> wrote:

> The LDS missionary program is only secondarily about recruiting new
> members from the general population. Really, the people running the program
> don't care if the nice young people in the shirts and ties and nametags
> ever convince anyone of anything.
>
> The program is designed from the ground up to cement the lifelong
> emotional loyalty of the missionaries themselves, who are barely trained
> children spending two years living away from home in a commune under a
> complete media blackout.
>
> The carrot is that, after they finish their stint as a missionary (which
> they themselves paid tens of thousands of dollars for the privilege), they
> are on a track that, if they pursue it, can take them into
> senior leadership positions within the church..
>
> They are barely equipped to even present the elevator pitch for their own
> theology, much less grapple critically with anyone else's, because That Is
> Not The Point.
>
> On Sun, Dec 29, 2024 at 10:11?AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> On 27/12/2024 14:45, efc at disroot.org wrote:
>> > The mormons often seem more afraid of me, than I of them, when we
>> > start to discuss philosophy and they soon tire of the conversation. ??
>>
>> I've had a similar experience with Jehovah's Witnesses. It's odd that
>> the god squad seem most reluctant to talk to people who seem to actually
>> know something about religion! It's like mathematicians being leery of
>> anyone who shows any knowledge of maths.
>>
>> This may be my cynicism showing, but I suspect that it's because they
>> are more interested in compliance with their particular viewpoint than
>> understanding. If you want to understand things, you're obviously not
>> good convert material!
>>
>> I think it was Luther who said that reason is the enemy of faith. Seems
>> he was right.
>>
>> --
>> Ben
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sun Dec 29 20:34:59 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2024 12:34:59 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Do you have a secret family pass phrase?
In-Reply-To: <7c8649ca-fd0d-47de-86a0-3c8deaf9ab19@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.25.1735310748.650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <7c8649ca-fd0d-47de-86a0-3c8deaf9ab19@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6BAcxwUp4DynmFPaAx53u_O8+ETiz-TbN9rm0sZtCpZA@mail.gmail.com>

My experiences with the scientology cult and at the same time running
into evolutionary psychology gives me an odd view of why humans are
susceptible to religions at all.  In the view of EP, human behaviors
are either directly selected or are a side effect of something that
was selected.

Capture-bonding https://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Capture-bonding was
directly selected.  As I put it, women who bonded to their captors
became our ancestors, those that did not become breakfasts (or did not
reproduce).

The model of war which includes taking the young women of the defeated
tribe is a case where genes for war behaviour survive better than the
people with such genes (when the alternative to war is starvation).
It is a strange business where a person can be in conflict with their
genes.

Anyway, genes for irrational thinking/behavior were selected in the
past.  The behavior/irrational thinking are still expressed when
people think they have a bleak future.

The psychological mechanisms that give us capture-bonding give rise to
a number of otherwise hard to understand behaviours, "Partial
activation of the capture-bonding psychological trait may lie behind
Battered-wife syndrome, military basic training, fraternity hazing,
and sex practices such as sadism/masochism or bondage/discipline.
[11]"

Selection for war has provided humans with irrational thinking modes.
Religions are certainly irrational.  They propagate in human culture
because we have been selected for irrational thinking as well as
rational thinking.

(Unless the tribe is facing starvation, rational thinking is
evolutionary favored.)

Keith

(This is a preliminary draft and may be expanded.)

On Sun, Dec 29, 2024 at 9:11?AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> On 27/12/2024 14:45, efc at disroot.org wrote:
> > The mormons often seem more afraid of me, than I of them, when we
> > start to discuss philosophy and they soon tire of the conversation. ??
>
> I've had a similar experience with Jehovah's Witnesses. It's odd that
> the god squad seem most reluctant to talk to people who seem to actually
> know something about religion! It's like mathematicians being leery of
> anyone who shows any knowledge of maths.
>
> This may be my cynicism showing, but I suspect that it's because they
> are more interested in compliance with their particular viewpoint than
> understanding. If you want to understand things, you're obviously not
> good convert material!
>
> I think it was Luther who said that reason is the enemy of faith. Seems
> he was right.
>
> --
> Ben
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From efc at disroot.org  Mon Dec 30 00:38:21 2024
From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2024 01:38:21 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Do you have a secret family pass phrase?
In-Reply-To: <7c8649ca-fd0d-47de-86a0-3c8deaf9ab19@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.25.1735310748.650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <7c8649ca-fd0d-47de-86a0-3c8deaf9ab19@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <4b318090-bf94-8d5e-5b2d-f2eb196126b5@disroot.org>



On Sun, 29 Dec 2024, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote:

> On 27/12/2024 14:45,?efc at disroot.org wrote:
>> The mormons often seem more afraid of me, than I of them, when we 
>> start to discuss philosophy and they soon tire of the conversation. ??
>
> I've had a similar experience with Jehovah's Witnesses. It's odd that 
> the god squad seem most reluctant to talk to people who seem to actually 
> know something about religion! It's like mathematicians being leery of 
> anyone who shows any knowledge of maths.
>
> This may be my cynicism showing, but I suspect that it's because they 
> are more interested in compliance with their particular viewpoint than 
> understanding. If you want to understand things, you're obviously not 
> good convert material!

I agree. It's about the business and not the learning experience for them. 
They build business by getting more converts, not by wasting time arguing 
philosophy with some random crazy guy who seems to know a thing or two.

> I think it was Luther who said that reason is the enemy of faith. Seems 
> he was right.
>
>

From ben at zaiboc.net  Mon Dec 30 15:58:44 2024
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2024 15:58:44 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Evolutionary Psychology, Maslow's Pyramid and Politics
In-Reply-To: <mailman.32.1735519121.650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.32.1735519121.650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <16e66345-1d80-4075-a58c-578fe0117f17@zaiboc.net>

On 30/12/2024 00:38, Keith Henson wrote:
> My experiences with the scientology cult and at the same time running
> into evolutionary psychology gives me an odd view of why humans are
> susceptible to religions at all.  In the view of EP, human behaviors
> are either directly selected or are a side effect of something that
> was selected.
>
> Capture-bondinghttps://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Capture-bonding  was
> directly selected.  As I put it, women who bonded to their captors
> became our ancestors, those that did not become breakfasts (or did not
> reproduce).
>
> The model of war which includes taking the young women of the defeated
> tribe is a case where genes for war behaviour survive better than the
> people with such genes (when the alternative to war is starvation).
> It is a strange business where a person can be in conflict with their
> genes.
>
> Anyway, genes for irrational thinking/behavior were selected in the
> past.  The behavior/irrational thinking are still expressed when
> people think they have a bleak future.
>
> The psychological mechanisms that give us capture-bonding give rise to
> a number of otherwise hard to understand behaviours, "Partial
> activation of the capture-bonding psychological trait may lie behind
> Battered-wife syndrome, military basic training, fraternity hazing,
> and sex practices such as sadism/masochism or bondage/discipline.
> [11]"
>
> Selection for war has provided humans with irrational thinking modes.
> Religions are certainly irrational.  They propagate in human culture
> because we have been selected for irrational thinking as well as
> rational thinking.
>
> (Unless the tribe is facing starvation, rational thinking is
> evolutionary favored.)
>
> Keith
>
> (This is a preliminary draft and may be expanded.)

I'm not so sure that rational thinking is favoured unless times are hard.

There's an argument to be made that hard times actually favour rational 
thinking. We know that wars tend to accelerate technological 
development. That's only possible with rational thinking. There's plenty 
of evidence that religion doesn't work (in terms of achieving 
technological progress), but science does. And even more evidence that 
it's the more technologically advanced groups that win wars.

What incentive do people have to do the hard type of thinking, if they 
are comfortable?

This doesn't clash with the idea that hard times lead to more 
aggression. It does suggest that the more hard-up - and therefore more 
aggressive - groups might be more inclined to rational thinking. Which 
seems wrong to me (and I hope it is, because it leads down a very dark 
path), so maybe there are flaws in my thinking. Please expose the flaws 
in my thinking!

I was recently reading this:
https://falkvinge.net/2024/06/29/contemporary-politics-is-much-better-understood-using-maslow-pyramid-than-the-economic-left-to-right-scale/

And it made a lot of sense to me.

I'm pretty sure that most people aren't really wedded to one political 
tendency, that's far too cerebral for the majority of people who mostly 
just want to be able to get on with their lives. Maslow's heirarchy of 
needs applies to all humans, whatever politics they claim to subscribe 
to. And it's inevitably a result of our evolution. So I think that our 
Evolutionary Psychology leading to Maslow's pyramid is much more 
relevant than capture bonding, at least for contemporary politics. You 
can probably predict which types of political party will be most popular 
by looking at where most of a population are on the heirarchy, as Rick 
Falkvinge's article explains.

All of which aligns nicely with what Keith has been saying for ages now: 
Improve people's day-to-day lives and prospects for the future (which 
usually means education, among other things), and you reduce the 
likelihood of wars and other bad outcomes.

One of the most significant bad outcomes is the likelihood of them 
voting for (or otherwise allowing to come to power) authoritarian 
governments. Consciously or not, the various authoritarian states seem 
to realise that they need to keep the population in a state of anxiety, 
relative poverty, ignorance and fear (iow, low down on Maslow's 
heirarchy). I don't know of a single authoritarian state that looks 
after their population well, keeps them materially comfortable, 
well-educated, healthy, feeling good about their future, and allows them 
free and open communication between themselves and with the wider world.

Obviously, otherwise we wouldn't call them 'authoritarian'!
The higher tiers of the pyramid just aren't compatible with 
authoritarianism.

So, one of the most important questions we should be asking in today's 
world is: How can we give people (all people, everywhere) the means to 
improve their lives, regardless of the regime they live under?

How can people, wherever they are, climb the pyramid, improve their 
physical and economic well-being, their education, and their 
communication with the rest of the world?

That, it seems to me, is the most important problem we need to solve, if 
we want to avoid a Bleak Future for all of us. And Governments aren't 
going to solve it. We can expect just about all governments to actually 
oppose it. As well as many businesses, too (when was the last time you 
tried to read a scientific paper on Sci-Hub?).

If we can crack that one, global warming will be a doddle!

-- 
Ben
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From ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com  Tue Dec 31 06:32:24 2024
From: ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com (ilsa)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2024 22:32:24 -0800
Subject: [ExI] You can help make a meaningful difference
Message-ID: <CAN3PQpG9TY1FKm2TRZncnD-gh58zXCmi_ayx9q32M9a_RXhV8w@mail.gmail.com>

I hope you?re doing well. I?m reaching out to ask for support for this
GoFundMe. Please consider donating, no contribution is too small to help.
Sharing with your network also helps reach more potential donors.

Here?s the link to the fundraiser:

https://gofund.me/cdc099d6
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From ben at zaiboc.net  Tue Dec 31 22:24:50 2024
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2024 22:24:50 +0000
Subject: [ExI] A paranormal prediction for the next year
In-Reply-To: <mailman.32.1735519121.650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.32.1735519121.650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <a939fe59-e20b-46ad-b990-df93febc99e4@zaiboc.net>

As John K Clark has been banished from this list, and I feel that his 
annual paranormal prediction is an important message for all those who 
consider themselves to be rational, I'm posting this in his place. The 
message shouldn't be necessary, but sadly, it still is, for the 
eighteenth year running:

 ??? ==============

 ??? One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not 
change one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message 
yet again.

 ??? ==============

 ??? Happy New Year all.

 ??? I predict that a paper reporting positive psi results will NOT 
appear in Nature or Science in the next year. This may seem an 
outrageous prediction, after all psi is hardly a rare phenomena, 
millions of people with no training have managed to observe it, or claim 
they have. And I am sure the good people at Nature and Science would 
want to say something about this very important and obvious part of our 
natural world if they could, but I predict they will be unable to find 
anything interesting to say about it.You might think my prediction is 
crazy, like saying a waitress with an eighth grade education in Duluth 
Minnesota can regularly observe the Higgs boson with no difficulty but 
the highly trained Physicists at CERN in Switzerland cannot. 
Nevertheless I am confident my prediction is true because my ghostly 
spirit guide Mohammad Duntoldme spoke to me about it in a dream.

 ??? PS: I am also confident I can make this very same prediction one 
year from today.

 ??????? John K Clark

-- 
Ben


From col.hales at gmail.com  Tue Dec 31 23:23:11 2024
From: col.hales at gmail.com (Colin Hales)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2025 10:23:11 +1100
Subject: [ExI] A paranormal prediction for the next year
In-Reply-To: <a939fe59-e20b-46ad-b990-df93febc99e4@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.32.1735519121.650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <a939fe59-e20b-46ad-b990-df93febc99e4@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAGHyZJkdpSmm=0+X2CVMVj_GpMjU=yQ5OHv2kADP_iumEYjWsg@mail.gmail.com>

I saw the 1st posting of that message. ??. Here we are in 2025. Reasoning
and evidence are as much under siege  as they were 18 years ago. More so.
Truth itself has the boot of the toxic ignoramus on its throat.

On Wed, 1 Jan 2025, 9:25?am Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat, <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> As John K Clark has been banished from this list, and I feel that his
> annual paranormal prediction is an important message for all those who
> consider themselves to be rational, I'm posting this in his place. The
> message shouldn't be necessary, but sadly, it still is, for the
> eighteenth year running:
>
>      ==============
>
>      One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not
> change one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message
> yet again.
>
>      ==============
>
>      Happy New Year all.
>
>      I predict that a paper reporting positive psi results will NOT
> appear in Nature or Science in the next year. This may seem an
> outrageous prediction, after all psi is hardly a rare phenomena,
> millions of people with no training have managed to observe it, or claim
> they have. And I am sure the good people at Nature and Science would
> want to say something about this very important and obvious part of our
> natural world if they could, but I predict they will be unable to find
> anything interesting to say about it.You might think my prediction is
> crazy, like saying a waitress with an eighth grade education in Duluth
> Minnesota can regularly observe the Higgs boson with no difficulty but
> the highly trained Physicists at CERN in Switzerland cannot.
> Nevertheless I am confident my prediction is true because my ghostly
> spirit guide Mohammad Duntoldme spoke to me about it in a dream.
>
>      PS: I am also confident I can make this very same prediction one
> year from today.
>
>          John K Clark
>
> --
> Ben
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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