[ExI] after upload, what?

Tue Feb 13 20:04:00 UTC 2024

On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 10:31 AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> I can't understand why someone would think people could only ever have one copy of themselves, once creating and binding multiple copies becomes trivally easy.

Have you ever considered how annoying a copy would be?  Who controls
the bank account?  Which one gets the wife?  (I know, run off a copy
of the wife as well).

But the main problem is an insane increase in the population.  Even as
an upload, a copy is going to burn resources.  Also, if there are 40
of you bidding for the same work, it's an instant race to the bottom.

> And children are more or less copies, already.  What is the difference?  I have become my father, more or less.

Children are not copies. Nor are they easy to raise to adulthood.  We
still have an overpopulation problem.  I wrote about raising clones in
an almost depopulated world.

> The reason Elon wants to get to mars is for the same reason.  We need multiple copies of humanity.

It would take a very short time to fill up Mars if it were habitable.

I think the only case where copies will be permitted is when people
are leaving for the stars and you can't get enough to fill up the
starships.

But I could be wrong.  I suspect the light-blocking structures at
Tabby's Star (and at least 24 others in the cluster) are data centers
able to support trillions of uploads.  So maybe copies are in our
future.

Keith

April had been born in 1980 when Amanda was thirty-six.  In spite of
trying, (and two miscarriages) she didn't have another before the
clinics and the physical world population crash they caused.  If she
wanted, she could call up intensely preserved memories of her first
child and restored video of her.  She sent off a thought and was
pinged back by her oldest daughter (or an automated process her
daughter had set up, it was hard to tell with those who had
transcended).

The next child had been born right at the low point in the population
eighty-one years later and thirty years after she and Dwight had gone
through their first partial rejuvenation.  They had stayed outside the
clinics and the virtual worlds when they became popular and were
encouraged to have a much more extensive rejuvenation and genome
upgrade if they were interested in raising kids to maintain a human
population presence.  (The attractions of the uploaded life had turned
out to be too good, and the "powers that be" whoever or whatever they
might be had decided to try to stabilize a physical state human
population above zero.)

Bob was a clone of Dwight, Connie was a clone of Amanda and Duncan was
a clone of a friend who had died before rejuvenation.  (His DNA had
been recovered from an envelope flap.)  A lot of Amanda's friends
raised clones of themselves and their partners in the first years
after the population bottom.  Raising your own clones rapidly went out
of style.  It was amazing how annoying kids that much like you can be.

>From "The Clinic Seed" chapter 3.

>
> On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 12:29 AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> I kind of suspect that it will be legal to have only one copy at a time active.
>>
>> But who knows?
>>
>> Modifying yourself is probably not a good idea.  Minsky went into some
>> detail, but I don't have time to look it up.
>>
>> Keith
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 11:04 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > Who just spools up another?  If all your active copies are subverted, which u believe is the scenario under discussion, you might not have a way out.
>> >
>> > On Mon, Feb 12, 2024, 7:33 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> It can defend itself if it is instantiated into multiple computationally bound brains.
>> >> If one of them accidentally falls into the sun, or gets hacked by some incompetent neural engineer, you just spin up another, and computationally bind to it to be sure it is the same,
>> >> all the phenomenal data restored.
>> >>
>> >> You just need lots of cheap copies.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 6:50 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Once you're uploaded, /someone/ will be able to change every parameter of your subjective conscious experience.
>> >>>
>> >>> If they're spectacularly nice, they may even give you permission to do so.
>> >>>
>> >>> But if they withold that permission, there will be absolutely nothing you can do about it.
>> >>>
>> >>> Furthermore, they will retain the option to modify you in any way they see fit. With or without your permission.
>> >>>
>> >>> Data can't defend itself.
>> >>>
>> >>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 5:38 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> This topic has been discussed for a long time, Drexler wrote about it
>> >>>> and so did Marvin Minsky.  I think I wrote about but can't find
>> >>>> anything with the phrase "without getting lost."
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Best wishes,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Keith
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 4:01 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat
>> >>>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Yea, your talking consciousness or phenomenal (or "spiritual" if you will) engineering.
>> >>>> > And you'll be able to do all these kinds of things you guys are talking about.
>> >>>> > Right now we don't have true free will, we get joy from things like having sex.  And we need to try to resist those hard wired temptations, when sex isn't appropriate.
>> >>>> > But true free will is having the ability to cut those puppet strings given to us by evolution (or God?) and wire joys like that up to what we want to do.
>> >>>> > Emagine when you need to take the garbage out, and you can wire it up to be orgasmic. ;)
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Oh, and the current "world in your head" this is our knowledge of what we see, is only about a mile or so in diameter, and very low resolution, and composed of only a few color qualities.  Emagine discovering thousands more color qualities, increasing the resolution, and extents of that bubble world by many orders of magnitude.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > And of course, there is using neural ponytails to "computationally bind multiple bubble worlds together in multiple brains.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > 100 years from now, once we start doing phenomenal engineering like this humanity, as we know it, will cease to exist.
>> >>>> > Intelligence will be a very different thing.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Our team, including Steven Lehar, are working on more videos on just this topic.  Describing in detail what uploading could be engineered to be like, and all that.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 3:19 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> On 09/02/2024 22:48, bill w wrote:
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> I am assuming that an uploaded person can change the programming - the parameters.  So how can that work?
>> >>>> >> Suppose one could change the enjoyment of chocolate to the most intense
>> >>>> >> pleasure possible - like dumping a ton of dopamine into a brain.  What
>> >>>> >> would happen?  A biological body would adapt and inhibit extreme
>> >>>> >> reactions and probably develop an addiction and tolerance.  Not in an
>> >>>> >> upload. You could presumably make every pleasure as intense as
>> >>>> >> possible.
>> >>>> >> If you read the news and there was a disaster you could turn off any
>> >>>> >> negative emotions and just note that news cognitively - no empathy at
>> >>>> >> all. No feeling bad.
>> >>>> >> Is that what people want?  bill w
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> Ask the opposite question: Suppose an uploaded person could not change things like their level of enjoyment (or its opposite) of specific things, and they couldn't modulate their emotional responses. Would that be what people want? Being stuck with the way you were as a biological brain?
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> I envisage something like an 'emotional control panel' that allows you to change your emotional states, with the ability to create a whole bunch of macros that could, for instance, record the previous settings and revert to them when needed, so you could try out different settings and have them return to 'normal' after a set period of time, for example. This would enable you to safely experiment with changing things, and decide what you want to be like without risking diving down a rabbit hole with no way out. There is tons of potential with that kind of thing. Naturally, the potential for bad outcomes is huge if you could just change these things at will, so safety mechanisms, automatic backup and restore, that sort of thing, would be needed to make sure you don't accidentally turn into a hopeless junkie, a psychopath, etc., etc., and could make deliberate decisions based on temporary experiments with various states of mind.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> Personally, I think that an upload without these kind of capabilities would be crippled, in terms of disabling a lot of the potential benefits of being an upload.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> In addition, this kind of thing will probably be necessary for taking the next steps beyond just replicating a biological human's mentality. Part of the whole point of uploading would be to enable us to go above and beyond being merely human, if and when we want to.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> Ben
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