[ExI] Open Individualism

Fri Jan 5 13:48:23 UTC 2024

On Thu, Jan 4, 2024, 9:12 PM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> It’s metaphysical.
>
> Of course we have individual identity and ego. This is even understood in
> collectivist cultures that value individualism less. But open individualism
> as I understand it posits that we are also interconnected within larger
> systems in ways that we cannot usually detect or appreciate including at a
> metaphysical level. That’s the “fundamentally connected at the level of
> consciousness” part referenced by Open AI. Good luck measuring that
> scientifically or even perceiving that subjectively in a normal state of
> mind. So appreciate it as philosophy or conjecture.
>

I very my such appreciate you sharing your experience. I came to realize
open individualism without the aid of psychedelics. I have attempted my
best to describe the rational arguments for its truth here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AJhXBFhAE4Xpu6WxD_C4bbW5yFs-pz1R/view?usp=drivesdk

Here is how Freeman Dyson described how it came to him:

"Enlightenment came to me suddenly and unexpectedly one afternoon in March
when I was walking up to the school notice board to see whether my name was
on the list for tomorrow’s football game. I was not on the list. And in a
blinding flash of inner light I saw the answer to both my problems, the
problem of war and the problem of injustice. The answer was amazingly
simple. I called it Cosmic Unity. Cosmic Unity said: There is only one of
us. We are all the same person. I am you and I am Winston Churchill and
Hitler and Gandhi and everybody. There is no problem of injustice because
your sufferings are also mine. There will be no problem of war as soon as
you understand that in killing me you are only killing yourself."
-- Freeman Dyson in “Disturbing The Universe” (1979)

> FWIW, the validity of open individualism is self-evident when on
> psychedelics, at least to me. Actually, it was a common thing reported also
> by people on psychedelics back when such research was at its heyday. You
> can see such reports in the literature and in archival films. As someone
> else noted, this is a consequence of “ego-loss” which can be achieved with
> other techniques as well. The idea is also captured and promoted in
> psychedelic art un-coincidentally.
>

Given that psychodelics work by shutting down some parts of the brain, (as
do stroke and TBI (
https://www.ted.com/talks/jill_bolte_taylor_my_stroke_of_insight?language=en
)), leads me to believe the illusion of the ego is actively maintained by
some part of the brain, in service to evolutionary principles. The ego
(even if an illusion) is still evolutionarily useful.

> Let Brent know that we can canonize perspectives about open individualism
> for fun, but we won’t resolve whether its valid through discussion. It’s
> something that has to be experienced, in my experience. I have been unable
> to mathematically or logically prove its validity despite my knowing, for
> example.
>

I am most curious to see whether you find any of the thought experiments in
my chapter useful or convincing to your normal state of mind.

> A takeaway for me is that this suggests that we can promote peace and
> unity and the benefits noted in Bill‘s moral prescription post by promoting
> ego-loss/psychedelic experiences.
>

Do most people have the experience of ego-loss in your experience? And does
it happen reliably for those it happens to?

Jason

> On Jan 4, 2024, at 4:33 PM, Jason Resch via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> 
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 4, 2024, 3:53 PM BillK via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 4 Jan 2024 at 20:31, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >
>> <snip>
>> >
>> > You have just redefined "empty individualism" to try to get around the
>> objections raised.
>> > _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> I think you may be expecting too much from Open Individualism.
>> It is not a religion or a moral philosophy laying down rules for how
>> humans should behave.
>> The AI seems to be saying that it is more just a way of thinking about
>> life.
>> You will still need laws, courts, police, prisons, armies, etc.
>>
>> BillK
>
>
>
> Thanks Bill this is useful.
>
> Jason
>
>
>> I asked the AI -
>> Does open individualism provide a moral prescription for human
>> behaviour to stop violence among humans?
>>
>> Answer -
>> Open individualism, as a philosophical perspective, does not directly
>> provide a specific moral prescription or a set of rules for human
>> behavior to stop violence among humans. It is primarily concerned with
>> the nature of personal identity and consciousness. However, it can
>> offer some ethical insights and perspectives that may inform
>> discussions on reducing violence.
>>
>> 1. Recognition of Interconnectedness: Open individualism emphasizes
>> the interconnectedness of all beings at a fundamental level of
>> consciousness. This recognition can foster a sense of empathy,
>> compassion, and a broader perspective on the impact of one's actions
>> on others. It can encourage individuals to consider the well-being and
>> dignity of all individuals, promoting non-violence and cooperation.
>>
>> 2. Expanding the Moral Circle: Open individualism challenges narrow
>> conceptions of self-interest and expands the moral circle to include
>> all beings. Understanding that we are all manifestations of the same
>> underlying consciousness can lead to a more inclusive and
>> compassionate approach to others. This broader ethical consideration
>> can contribute to efforts to reduce violence and promote peace.
>>
>> 3. Ethical Implications of Unity: The perspective of open
>> individualism suggests that harming others is, in a sense, harming
>> oneself. If all individuals are interconnected and part of the same
>> underlying consciousness, violence against others is, in effect,
>> violence against oneself. This understanding can lead to a moral
>> aversion to violence and a commitment to non-violent conflict
>> resolution.
>>
>> While open individualism can offer philosophical insights and ethical
>> considerations, addressing violence among humans requires a
>> multi-faceted approach. Practical strategies, social, political, and
>> economic factors, as well as cultural and historical contexts, all
>> play significant roles in understanding and addressing violence.
>> Therefore, it is important to combine philosophical perspectives with
>> a wide range of approaches and disciplines to effectively address the
>> complex issue of violence in human behavior.
>> -------------------
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