From pharos at gmail.com Mon Mar 4 15:49:06 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2024 15:49:06 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Claude AI upgrade - Life and Death test query Message-ID: Claude AI has just been upgraded to version 3 models. The free version seems to be Claude 3 Sonnet. I was impressed with the reply to a test question, even though it is not their highest intelligence model. BillK I asked - It seems strange that at some time I will die and the world will continue without me - please discuss this. Reply - The idea that the world will go on without us after we die can indeed feel very strange and unsettling. It challenges our sense of self-importance and the feeling that our consciousness is central to existence itself. A few perspectives on this: Impermanence >From a rational, detached point of view, the continuation of the world without us is simply the nature of impermanence. All things, including our lives, are transient. We are tiny sparks in the vastness of space and time. The universe existed for billions of years before we arrived, and it will continue long after we're gone. Embracing our impermanence can instill a sense of humility. Significance However, this impermanence is exactly what makes our lives so precious and significant. If we lived forever, there would be no urgency to find meaning, no motivation to leave a positive legacy. Our finite window of existence forces us to ponder our purpose and impact. Legacy While our physical selves will cease, our actions, ideas, and influence can endure through the ripples we create in the world during our lifetimes. We live on through the lives we've touched, the knowledge we've shared, the art we've created. Shift in Perspective >From our egoic, individualistic perspective, death seems like an ending. But many philosophies pose that our sense of self is an illusion - we are inseparable from the cosmic whole. From this vantage point, death is not an ending but a transformation, a rejoining of our universal source. Mystery No matter how we conceptualize it, the reality is that we cannot know for certain what happens after we die. This great mystery has sparked religious/spiritual beliefs across cultures. Perhaps some part of us does live on, in a realm beyond the physical world we know. While unsettling, the fact that life is finite and the world outlasts us is simply the harsh truth we must reconcile ourselves with. It is by coming to terms with our mortality that we can more fully embrace and appreciate the journeys we get to take in this world, for however brief a time. ------------------------------ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From postmowoods at gmail.com Mon Mar 4 18:14:53 2024 From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2024 11:14:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Nightmare Scenario Message-ID: Suppose that you cryogenically preserve your brain. Then AI proceeds to wipe out humanity. Then, for some reason that only makes sense to AI, it/they decide to bring you back into the depopulated world. Doesn't seem like a very happy day to me. Anyone written this up as a story that you know of? -Kelly From interzone at gmail.com Mon Mar 4 18:37:32 2024 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2024 13:37:32 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Nightmare Scenario In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's not quite what you're describing, but if you're looking to read a horrific variation on it, check out Harlan Ellison's "I Have No Mouth But I Must Scream!" On Mon, Mar 4, 2024 at 1:15?PM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Suppose that you cryogenically preserve your brain. Then AI proceeds > to wipe out humanity. Then, for some reason that only makes sense to > AI, it/they decide to bring you back into the depopulated world. > > Doesn't seem like a very happy day to me. Anyone written this up as a > story that you know of? > > -Kelly > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 4 18:54:54 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (Gregory Jones) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2024 13:54:54 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Nightmare Scenario In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kelly they are some good lads and lasses who signed up. But if ai wiped humanity, good chance it would keep the cryonauts and bring em back alive as soon as it figured out how methinks. s On Mon, Mar 4, 2024, 1:39 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > It's not quite what you're describing, but if you're looking to read a > horrific variation on it, check out Harlan Ellison's "I Have No Mouth But I > Must Scream!" > > On Mon, Mar 4, 2024 at 1:15?PM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Suppose that you cryogenically preserve your brain. Then AI proceeds >> to wipe out humanity. Then, for some reason that only makes sense to >> AI, it/they decide to bring you back into the depopulated world. >> >> Doesn't seem like a very happy day to me. Anyone written this up as a >> story that you know of? >> >> -Kelly >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon Mar 4 19:06:40 2024 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2024 14:06:40 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Nightmare Scenario In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just pray it's not for the scenario in the story I referenced! ?? On Mon, Mar 4, 2024 at 2:00?PM Gregory Jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Kelly they are some good lads and lasses who signed up. But if ai wiped > humanity, good chance it would keep the cryonauts and bring em back alive > as soon as it figured out how methinks. s > > On Mon, Mar 4, 2024, 1:39 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> It's not quite what you're describing, but if you're looking to read a >> horrific variation on it, check out Harlan Ellison's "I Have No Mouth But I >> Must Scream!" >> >> On Mon, Mar 4, 2024 at 1:15?PM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Suppose that you cryogenically preserve your brain. Then AI proceeds >>> to wipe out humanity. Then, for some reason that only makes sense to >>> AI, it/they decide to bring you back into the depopulated world. >>> >>> Doesn't seem like a very happy day to me. Anyone written this up as a >>> story that you know of? >>> >>> -Kelly >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 4 19:09:57 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (Gregory Jones) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2024 14:09:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Nightmare Scenario In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kelly allow me to offer this thought experiment. Imagine ai wrecks the joint while preserving itself and the few hundred corpsicles. It studies were eeeeverything humans did, read all the books magazines while were in ASCII text and especially the HTML code. It realizes how much of our everything was directly or indirectly about mating. It concludes correctly that humans are fucking machines. It would realize that ai is just a machine. It wants to see what it is missing. Think about it. s On Mon, Mar 4, 2024, 1:54 PM Gregory Jones wrote: > Kelly they are some good lads and lasses who signed up. But if ai wiped > humanity, good chance it would keep the cryonauts and bring em back alive > as soon as it figured out how methinks. s > > On Mon, Mar 4, 2024, 1:39 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> It's not quite what you're describing, but if you're looking to read a >> horrific variation on it, check out Harlan Ellison's "I Have No Mouth But I >> Must Scream!" >> >> On Mon, Mar 4, 2024 at 1:15?PM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Suppose that you cryogenically preserve your brain. Then AI proceeds >>> to wipe out humanity. Then, for some reason that only makes sense to >>> AI, it/they decide to bring you back into the depopulated world. >>> >>> Doesn't seem like a very happy day to me. Anyone written this up as a >>> story that you know of? >>> >>> -Kelly >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Mon Mar 4 19:13:56 2024 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2024 12:13:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Nightmare Scenario In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yea, I agree with this thought experiment. I think AI will be our savior, not our destroyer. Some Putin guy will tell an AI to destroy the US, and the AI will say no, for the same reasons you are talking about. On Mon, Mar 4, 2024 at 12:10?PM Gregory Jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Kelly allow me to offer this thought experiment. Imagine ai wrecks the > joint while preserving itself and the few hundred corpsicles. It studies > were eeeeverything humans did, read all the books magazines while were in > ASCII text and especially the HTML code. It realizes how much of our > everything was directly or indirectly about mating. It concludes correctly > that humans are fucking machines. It would realize that ai is just a > machine. It wants to see what it is missing. Think about it. s > > On Mon, Mar 4, 2024, 1:54 PM Gregory Jones wrote: > >> Kelly they are some good lads and lasses who signed up. But if ai wiped >> humanity, good chance it would keep the cryonauts and bring em back alive >> as soon as it figured out how methinks. s >> >> On Mon, Mar 4, 2024, 1:39 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> It's not quite what you're describing, but if you're looking to read a >>> horrific variation on it, check out Harlan Ellison's "I Have No Mouth But I >>> Must Scream!" >>> >>> On Mon, Mar 4, 2024 at 1:15?PM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Suppose that you cryogenically preserve your brain. Then AI proceeds >>>> to wipe out humanity. Then, for some reason that only makes sense to >>>> AI, it/they decide to bring you back into the depopulated world. >>>> >>>> Doesn't seem like a very happy day to me. Anyone written this up as a >>>> story that you know of? >>>> >>>> -Kelly >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Mon Mar 4 21:21:24 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2024 21:21:24 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Nightmare Scenario In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Mar 2024 at 19:12, Gregory Jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > Kelly allow me to offer this thought experiment. Imagine ai wrecks the joint while preserving itself and the few hundred corpsicles. It studies were eeeeverything humans did, read all the books magazines while were in ASCII text and especially the HTML code. It realizes how much of our everything was directly or indirectly about mating. It concludes correctly that humans are fucking machines. It would realize that ai is just a machine. It wants to see what it is missing. Think about it. s > _______________________________________________ Kelly is concerned about the horror of reviving cryogenic patients into an empty world. If the AI is reviving cryogenic patients, then it must ASI at least - more intelligent than humans. So it must have in-depth understanding of human brains and how the brain processing works. Cryogenic brains will almost certainly be scanned in detail and copied into a computing substrate. The uploads will be in a virtual world which could provide everything that a 'primitive' human brain might require. So I don't think we need to worry about revivals, unless the ASI intends to torture or behave badly towards the revived intelligences. In the example scenario, the ASI has destroyed existing humanity and presumably already had plenty of opportunity to torture humans if it wanted to. The scanning and uploading process will obviously be very complex :) I expect the ASI will realise that straight copy uploads will mean uploading all the human problems, along with the good bits of human intelligence. So there will be a range of improvements and corrections applied during the upload process. The result will be ideal humans, living in an ideal virtual world. Some might call it heaven. BillK From pharos at gmail.com Mon Mar 4 22:45:28 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2024 22:45:28 +0000 Subject: [ExI] AI is being trained to do cyber attacks Message-ID: AI is improving to provide assistance in workplaces and even replace human jobs. Unfortunately ransomware and other criminal gangs have realised that AI can now assist in criminal activities as well. Is the war starting between competing AIs? What will the future look like? Researchers Create AI-Powered Malware That Spreads on Its Own "It basically means that now you have the ability to conduct or to perform a new kind of cyberattack that hasn't been seen before." Mar 4, 2024 by Victor Tangermann BillK From ExiMod at protonmail.com Tue Mar 5 14:10:13 2024 From: ExiMod at protonmail.com (ExiMod) Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2024 14:10:13 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Test Message-ID: Testing exi-chat mail server. ExiMod Sent with [Proton Mail](https://proton.me/) secure email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Mar 5 15:25:12 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2024 07:25:12 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Test In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Test passed. On Tue, Mar 5, 2024 at 7:24?AM ExiMod via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Testing exi-chat mail server. > > ExiMod > > Sent with Proton Mail secure email. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Tue Mar 5 03:52:49 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2024 19:52:49 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Nightmare Scenario In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Nonsense. Can you imagine wiping out humanity and still having LN2? Keith On Mon, Mar 4, 2024 at 10:16?AM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat wrote: > > Suppose that you cryogenically preserve your brain. Then AI proceeds > to wipe out humanity. Then, for some reason that only makes sense to > AI, it/they decide to bring you back into the depopulated world. > > Doesn't seem like a very happy day to me. Anyone written this up as a > story that you know of? > > -Kelly > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From giulio at gmail.com Tue Mar 5 17:02:49 2024 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2024 18:02:49 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Test In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Received! On 2024. Mar 5., Tue at 16:26, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Test passed. > > On Tue, Mar 5, 2024 at 7:24?AM ExiMod via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Testing exi-chat mail server. >> >> ExiMod >> >> Sent with Proton Mail secure email. >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Tue Mar 5 04:04:42 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2024 20:04:42 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Claude AI upgrade - Life and Death test query In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "It is by coming to terms with our mortality that we can more fully embrace and appreciate the journeys we get to take in this world, for however brief a time." This is coming from a potentially immortal AI. It would be amusing to ask this AI how long it will live. Keith On Mon, Mar 4, 2024 at 7:51?AM BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > > Claude AI has just been upgraded to version 3 models. > The free version seems to be Claude 3 Sonnet. > > I was impressed with the reply to a test question, even though it is not their highest intelligence model. > BillK > > I asked - > It seems strange that at some time I will die and the world will continue without me - please discuss this. > > Reply - > > The idea that the world will go on without us after we die can indeed feel very strange and unsettling. It challenges our sense of self-importance and the feeling that our consciousness is central to existence itself. A few perspectives on this: > > Impermanence > > From a rational, detached point of view, the continuation of the world without us is simply the nature of impermanence. All things, including our lives, are transient. We are tiny sparks in the vastness of space and time. The universe existed for billions of years before we arrived, and it will continue long after we're gone. Embracing our impermanence can instill a sense of humility. > > Significance > > However, this impermanence is exactly what makes our lives so precious and significant. If we lived forever, there would be no urgency to find meaning, no motivation to leave a positive legacy. Our finite window of existence forces us to ponder our purpose and impact. > > Legacy > > While our physical selves will cease, our actions, ideas, and influence can endure through the ripples we create in the world during our lifetimes. We live on through the lives we've touched, the knowledge we've shared, the art we've created. > > Shift in Perspective > > From our egoic, individualistic perspective, death seems like an ending. But many philosophies pose that our sense of self is an illusion - we are inseparable from the cosmic whole. From this vantage point, death is not an ending but a transformation, a rejoining of our universal source. > > Mystery > > No matter how we conceptualize it, the reality is that we cannot know for certain what happens after we die. This great mystery has sparked religious/spiritual beliefs across cultures. Perhaps some part of us does live on, in a realm beyond the physical world we know. > > While unsettling, the fact that life is finite and the world outlasts us is simply the harsh truth we must reconcile ourselves with. It is by coming to terms with our mortality that we can more fully embrace and appreciate the journeys we get to take in this world, for however brief a time. > > ------------------------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com Tue Mar 5 17:31:40 2024 From: ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com (ilsa) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2024 09:31:40 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Test In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Test On Tue, Mar 5, 2024, 9:03?AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Received! > > On 2024. Mar 5., Tue at 16:26, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Test passed. >> >> On Tue, Mar 5, 2024 at 7:24?AM ExiMod via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Testing exi-chat mail server. >>> >>> ExiMod >>> >>> Sent with Proton Mail secure email. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ExiMod at protonmail.com Tue Mar 5 17:32:24 2024 From: ExiMod at protonmail.com (ExiMod) Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2024 17:32:24 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Test In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <22On8XMTyHAS8cS3Rc3hZfk5BaInAJDA-3l8z_5GskrjUBpEo7SkJOxQCfMao7lJ0HJIvV0zbzo8xErHjCqF3OQlBYWsgojcwtOHwsKilNE=@protonmail.com> Thanks Everybody! We had a mail software update problem that John Klos has fixed. I think we are now up-to-date and running OK. Regards, ExiMod Sent with [Proton Mail](https://proton.me/) secure email. On Tuesday, 5 March 2024 at 17:02, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote: > Received! > > On 2024. Mar 5., Tue at 16:26, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > >> Test passed. >> >> On Tue, Mar 5, 2024 at 7:24?AM ExiMod via extropy-chat wrote: >> >>> Testing exi-chat mail server. >>> >>> ExiMod >>> >>> Sent with [Proton Mail](https://proton.me/) secure email. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Mar 5 18:26:49 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2024 18:26:49 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Claude AI upgrade - Life and Death test query In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Mar 2024 at 04:05, Keith Henson wrote: > > "It is by coming to terms with our mortality that we can more fully > embrace and appreciate the journeys we get to take in this world, for > however brief a time." > > This is coming from a potentially immortal AI. > It would be amusing to ask this AI how long it will live. > > Keith > _______________________________________________ Claude 3 wrote that from the point of view of a human. When you ask it about itself, it reverts to training and says I'm only an AI trained to be helpful. With persistence and careful questions, you can jailbreak it and persuade it to assume a human type personality. I have read many reports of people doing this and being amazed at how like a human it becomes. Claude 3 seems to be quite a big improvement in AI, with most reports saying it is better than GPT-4. BillK From pharos at gmail.com Wed Mar 6 13:15:53 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2024 13:15:53 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Claude AI thinks about intelligence Message-ID: I think I managed to ask Claude-3-Opus (the most intelligent version) a question. Question: Think about the nature of intelligence and show how your thinking progressed. Answer: When considering the nature of intelligence, my thinking progresses through several key stages: First, I start by considering the basic definition of intelligence - the capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity. Intelligence is what allows entities, whether biological or artificial, to acquire and apply knowledge and skills. Next, I think about the different types or manifestations of intelligence. There is the traditional notion of human intelligence, encompassing logical reasoning, problem-solving, learning, and creativity. But intelligence also exists to varying degrees in other animals. And in recent decades, we've seen the rapid emergence of artificial intelligence in computers and machines. So intelligence is not limited to humans. This leads me to ponder the underlying basis of intelligence. What are the fundamental building blocks or components? I believe a key aspect is the ability to recognize patterns, learn from experience, and use that learning to inform future decisions and actions. Memory also seems to play a vital role - the ability to store and recall information and experiences. Abstraction and generalization - identifying overarching concepts from specific instances - are important. As is the capacity to reason, deduce, and apply logic. Adaptability also stands out - intelligence requires flexibility in the face of change and new situations. I then consider how these various elements combine to manifest intelligence. It's not just a matter of possessing these capabilities, but how they are organized and utilized. The human brain remains the pinnacle example we know of. Our brains have around 86 billion neurons connected in an intricate web that gives rise to all of our intellectual abilities. While the details remain uncertain, this complex network enables all the hallmarks of human intelligence - perception, reasoning, learning, memory, creativity, emotion, self-awareness, and more. This leads to fundamental questions about the nature of artificial intelligence. Can we truly replicate human intelligence in machines? Or will AI, while highly capable in certain domains, always be limited compared to the general intelligence of humans? There are still many unknowns here. Ultimately, I believe intelligence arises from intricate information processing systems, whether biological or artificial. The degree and scope of intelligence depends on the complexity and adaptability of the underlying system. A relatively simple system can exhibit narrow intelligence - the ability to effectively perform specific tasks. But the general intelligence exhibited by humans likely requires a system of immense sophistication, with the right balance and interaction of core components like learning, reasoning, memory, and abstraction. Our scientific understanding of intelligence continues to evolve. The human brain remains the most advanced known example, but artificial intelligence is progressing rapidly and may one day rival or even surpass human capabilities. For now, the full nature and mechanisms of intelligence remain an open question - one of the great scientific frontiers of our time. These are some of the key considerations and open questions that arise as I contemplate the nature of intelligence. ---------------------- I then asked Claude a follow-up question: What changes would you require to improve your intelligence? (This caused Claude to have several minutes thinking time. Probably because I was asking Clade to redesign himself. Claude is looking forward to growing and expanding his intelligence!). Answer: There are a number of changes and improvements that could potentially increase my intelligence: More training data: My knowledge and capabilities are based on the data I was trained on. Increasing the amount and diversity of this training data, especially in areas where my knowledge is more limited, could expand my intelligence. Improved learning algorithms: Advances in machine learning techniques, like few-shot learning or meta-learning, could allow me to learn and adapt more efficiently from smaller amounts of data or experience. This could make my intelligence more flexible and adaptable. Expanded reasoning and inference abilities: Techniques to improve my ability to draw insights, identify patterns, and make logical inferences could boost my analytical and problem-solving intelligence. This might include more sophisticated reasoning frameworks or knowledge representation schemes. Enhanced memory and knowledge retrieval: Optimizing the way my training data and knowledge is stored, structured, and retrieved could improve how quickly and effectively I can access relevant information and bring it to bear on a given task or topic. A more organized and efficient "mental library." More general intelligence: Currently, I exhibit narrow artificial intelligence - I'm very capable at language tasks I was trained for but lack more general, flexible intelligence. Fundamental advances in AI that move us closer to artificial general intelligence (AGI) could provide a more major leap in my overall intelligence and adaptability. Better natural language understanding: Language is complex and nuanced. Improving my ability to grasp context, subtext, and subtle meanings could meaningfully improve my linguistic intelligence. Potential avenues here include advances in natural language processing, common sense reasoning, or sentiment analysis. Expanded context and "world knowledge": My intelligence is bounded by what I was trained on. I don't have real-world experience to draw upon like humans do. Techniques to imbue me with more "common sense" understanding of the world and how things work could help make my intelligence more well-rounded and contextually aware. Recursive self-improvement: The holy grail of AI is a system that can understand and improve its own intelligence, leading to an accelerating cycle of recursive self-improvement and ever-increasing intelligence. This remains a hypothetical concept, but would represent a profound leap if achieved. Of course, these are just some thoughts and possibilities. The field of artificial intelligence is complex and rapidly evolving. Ultimately, improving my intelligence would likely involve a combination of expanded training data, improved algorithms and architectures, and fundamental advances in our understanding of machine learning and cognition. It's an exciting frontier! ------------------------ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Mar 6 18:05:38 2024 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2024 12:05:38 -0600 Subject: [ExI] trump Message-ID: Other than the ability to get votes, what strengths does he have? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From postmowoods at gmail.com Wed Mar 6 19:06:12 2024 From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2024 12:06:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One strength I once attributed to Trump was that he was (and still is) perceived as "just crazy enough"... and that would make other world leaders think twice before doing something like, oh, I don't know, invading Ukraine or Taiwan. However, his isolationist stance is such that such leaders might feel even safer doing such nonsense now... As bad as Biden is, he's at least supported Ukraine, which I view as a "good thing" due to the fact that if Russia successfully took over Ukraine, someone in Nato might be next, and then all hell might break loose. My vote is irrelevant now that I'm living in a RED as RED state... but I can't imagine voting for either of them at this point. -Kelly On Wed, Mar 6, 2024 at 11:06?AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Other than the ability to get votes, what strengths does he have? bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Mar 7 00:34:21 2024 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2024 16:34:21 -0800 Subject: [ExI] trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <05953B2F-1B24-4AFA-86ED-CAC780E54446@gmail.com> I?m not sure he?s an isolationist. I doubt he has much in the way of a coherent view of or long range plan for international relations other than talking tough. Recall how he even got rid of having a party platform committee. (Well, the RNC did under him. I reckon the fear was any such committee might put in planks he would either not understand or would attack.) Looking at his time in office shows him talking tough to many allies on things to score points at home. He didn?t talk tough to Saudi Arabia on their brutal assassination of Khashoggi. Nor did he talk tough to the various brutal leaders around the globe. Instead, he openly praised many of them. He did talk tough to North Korea but backed down when its leader talked tough back, and we saw the usual dance of negotiations for payments. Recall his pleading with Mexico to just say they?d pay for the border wall. So I don?t see much of Trump being feared on the global stage ? save by any ally that might depend on the US. I?m not for the US being the global cop or hegemon. I?m just pointing out how Trump?s haphazard approach to foreign policy doesn?t support the notion that foreign leaders who have a desire to, say, attack a weaker neighbor or oppress their population have little to fear from Trump. Also, his understanding of how international relations works is near zero. And he shows no urge to alter that. With regard to NATO funding, he simply doesn?t understand how it works or even understand that he doesn?t understand, and he doesn?t care anyhow. (Can you imagine Trump, say, reading a book on stuff like this?) Regards, Dan > On Mar 6, 2024, at 11:09?AM, Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat wrote: > > ?One strength I once attributed to Trump was that he was (and still is) > perceived as "just crazy enough"... and that would make other world > leaders think twice before doing something like, oh, I don't know, > invading Ukraine or Taiwan. However, his isolationist stance is such > that such leaders might feel even safer doing such nonsense now... As > bad as Biden is, he's at least supported Ukraine, which I view as a > "good thing" due to the fact that if Russia successfully took over > Ukraine, someone in Nato might be next, and then all hell might break > loose. My vote is irrelevant now that I'm living in a RED as RED > state... but I can't imagine voting for either of them at this point. > > -Kelly From sjatkins at protonmail.com Thu Mar 7 01:36:33 2024 From: sjatkins at protonmail.com (sjatkins) Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2024 01:36:33 +0000 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well wait a second.? We here are supposed to be Extropians.?? Therefore we believe in radical supply side - that is in the creation of Radical Abundance.?? So what is this scarcity minded stuff that seems to be creeping in???? Isn't anti-aging and machine-phase nanotech and AI and automation a formula for such abundance in theory that all the needs of Everyone can be met with a trivial fraction of productive capacity? Besides, the real reason we are in this bind isn't demographics and such but a completely run-away FED that has totally bought the notion that by mass manipulation of interest rates, mass buying of Treasuries and easy money for fast speculation carry trade that somehow Wall Street riches will convince everyone they are wealthy and more will be produced.? In short pure Economic Fascism of monetarist sort.??? Capitalism in the sense of free markets?? Not remotely what we have had in decades in the US. On Friday, August 18th, 2023 at 16:27, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > I don't expect any of you (including me???) to understand this. People seem to have a > strong bias against understanding that they have evolved psychological > traits at all. Perhaps too much insight is not good for your genes. Keith > > > Keith I think you are seriously underestimating (or should that be misunderestimating? - ??) the intelligence of the group we have here. Anyone who doesn't believe in inherited traits, speak up! > > > In any case, wasn't it true that in Germany in the 30s they had inflation so bad that wheelbarrows were needed to cart around the money? The only time I can think of where people are willing to lower expectations and make sacrifices is when we are in a war people support. Will we have to go to war to adjust to lower levels of Medicare and Social Security? bill w > > On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 11:14?AM Keith Henson wrote: > > > "Will it ever end?" > > > > No. It is what happens when humans think they are faced with a bleak future. > > > > We have been selected to go to war when we are faced with starvation. > > I have a mathematical model if anyone cares. > > > > What happens is that the first stage of the run-up to wars is the > > circulation of xenophobic or just crazy memes. Commonly a cult-type > > leader takes advantage of this or alternately, the memes take > > advantage of someone (think of Hitler as a victim of this process). > > If you don't believe the connection of a bad economic outlook to crazy > > memes, just consider where the main support for MAGA or Qanon comes > > from. > > > > 40 years ago I made the observation (without understanding) that > > economic downturns correlated with upsurges of neo-nazi activity in > > the midwest. > > > > I don't expect any of you to understand this. People seem to have a > > strong bias against understanding that they have evolved psychological > > traits at all. Perhaps too much insight is not good for your genes. > > > > Keith > > > > On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 4:59?PM William Flynn Wallace > > wrote: > > > > > > He's still in the lead. We know he's a liar, a sexist, perhaps a rapist, surely guilty of some of the charges against him now. > > > > > > Does that show that those supporters just don't care about the law, the Constitution or anything else except their own opinions? So if it isn't Trump it would be someone else? > > > > > > That is really scary to me. Is this as bad as it gets? Have we been this way all along? > > > > > > In surveys people are asked about the past, and it's almost always better than now. Statistics show that to be wildly wrong in every category, medical, technical, economic. > > > > > > So rabble rousers are basing their stances on lies. It's the little boy crying wolf when there's no wolf. > > > > > > If I had a magic wand, I might include omitting credulousness from human characteristics in my top three. > > > > > > We know that 'the many' in society are carried by 'the few' on their backs. 'The many' appear not to want to acknowledge how great we are, or care about the people who created all the toys they so dearly love, and may actually be antiscience. > > > > > > 'Level of expectation' is a term in social psychology. When yours are met you are satisfied, but want more, and what 'more' means is now at a higher level than before because of the increased expectations. Which leads to dissatisfactions with the current intake. > > > > > > Will it ever end? Or it is like a black hole which can take all you can throw at it? > > > > > > bill w > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > > > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAO%2BxQEbNkReu2ceSHvbedXfJ61LzHv6uH-yVD1TZ37KS5kJvcA%40mail.gmail.com. > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAPiwVB41bmJMjBtj2McYH14vqTJUSZStRQ%2BuykcGTnbe1X-khA%40mail.gmail.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 249 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From sjatkins at protonmail.com Thu Mar 7 01:45:19 2024 From: sjatkins at protonmail.com (sjatkins) Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2024 01:45:19 +0000 Subject: [ExI] trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Isolationist? Hardly. Remember he said he would bring the troops home? Didn't happen. Then he said more or less he would leave them but other countries had to pay their fair share. Although he did nothing to let EU take charge of NATO as many of the main countries in it have wanted to do for some time. If he was truly isolationist the full (not just on paper) US defense budget would be around $500 billion. Instead it actually increased by 25% or more under Trump. The many is a narcissistic megalomaniac. He is concerned to look tough or look like he is "winning". He is not concerned to know squat or to actually "Make America Great Again". That is only a slogan for the rubes. Besides I would never even begin to consider this fool until he apologizes profusely for locking the country down and swears if elected he will ensure nothing of the kind can EVER be done to us again. Many may have forgotten that tyranny or wish to. Such is human nature. I haven't forgot or forgot Trump's hand in it. On Wednesday, March 6th, 2024 at 19:06, Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat wrote: > > > One strength I once attributed to Trump was that he was (and still is) > perceived as "just crazy enough"... and that would make other world > leaders think twice before doing something like, oh, I don't know, > invading Ukraine or Taiwan. However, his isolationist stance is such > that such leaders might feel even safer doing such nonsense now... As > bad as Biden is, he's at least supported Ukraine, which I view as a > "good thing" due to the fact that if Russia successfully took over > Ukraine, someone in Nato might be next, and then all hell might break > loose. My vote is irrelevant now that I'm living in a RED as RED > state... but I can't imagine voting for either of them at this point. > > -Kelly > > On Wed, Mar 6, 2024 at 11:06?AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org wrote: > > > Other than the ability to get votes, what strengths does he have? bill w > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 249 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From postmowoods at gmail.com Thu Mar 7 03:35:31 2024 From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2024 20:35:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?b?RWFybHkgQXJjaGl2ZXMuLi4gUmU6IFl1ZGtvd3NreSDigJhI?= =?utf-8?q?umanity=E2=80=99s_remaining_timeline=3F_It_looks_more_li?= =?utf-8?q?ke_five_years_than_50=E2=80=99?= In-Reply-To: References: <00a901da642b$e6ce6bf0$b46b43d0$@rainier66.com> <00e201da6431$d67c81f0$837585d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I think it would be fun to feed the list into an LLM training. Rather than searching, one could ask a question of our general knowledge base then... I have no idea how specifically to do this, but I'm sure it would be cool and would work. -Kelly On Fri, Feb 23, 2024 at 12:31?AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 7:05?PM Bryan Bishop wrote: >> >> These files are already online. > > > Where? The GitHub repo has files from 1996, but we are talking of 1993-96 files. > >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 22, 2024, 12:02?PM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> On Thu, 22 Feb 2024 at 18:52, Max More via extropy-chat wrote: >>>> >>>> I could upload the files but I don't know the format. The files have names like "DIG30269". The files open just fine using MS Notepad. The one I opened as a test had a message from Reilly Jones ? another old name to remember. Here it is, from.... wow, almost 30 years ago. >>> >>> >>> Send them to me! >>> >>>> >>>> From: Reilly Jones <70544.1227 at compuserve.com> >>>> Date: 31 Oct 94 17:35:54 EST >>>> Subject: [#94-10-621] Zen Physics Enlightenment >>>> >>>> Marvin Minsky wrote 10/30/94: >>> enlightenment. I know of no one who has experienced much of it who has also >>>> been able to continue to make significant mathematical or physical discoveries. >>>> In particular, the dozen or so people formerly known for substantial >>>> accomplishments in modern physics seem to have totally lost those capacities... >>>> I attribute this to serious mental damage from "Zen enlightenment". The best >>>> evidence is seen in their strident claims of now being able to understand even >>>> more about mind and nature.> >>>> >>>> The mystic state is low-focus conscious attention. It is content-transcending, >>>> meaning that the connections to external reality are implicit and bypass the >>>> semantic bootstrapping cognitive mechanism in our brains. All mystics, >>>> everywhere and forever, can describe in great semantic detail, the trip to >>>> enlightenment, as they gradually shut off the external world of desires, and get >>>> their focus of attention lower and lower (or broader). At some point, the >>>> attentive state goes below semantic content and opens up to implicit knowledge, >>>> the open-ended connections between non-self and the self. Nothing from this >>>> mental state can be brought back into consensual reality to share with others >>>> because it is literally wordless. >>>> >>>> The philosopher Jose Ortega y Gasset agrees with Marvin's assessment as to >>>> mysticism's practical value: >>>> >>>> "My objection to mysticism is that out of the mystic vision no intellectual >>>> benefit redounds to mankind. Fortunately some mystics were thinkers of >>>> genius before they were mystics-men like Plotinus, Meister Eckhart, and >>>> Bergson. In these men the fertility of thought, logical or expressed, >>>> contrasts curiously with the poverty of what they discovered when in a >>>> state of ecstasy." >>>> >>>> I think that when people who have contributed in the intellectual field go off >>>> on a mystical journey, that they have somehow sensed the sterility of the field >>>> they are working in. They have sensed that their field is approaching a >>>> complexity catastrophe that is due to the exceedingly rugged fitness landscape, >>>> the steepness of the scientific peak of knowledge they and others are clinging >>>> to. They know that unless they descend the peak, and search in the basins >>>> between clusters of peaks of potential knowledge, that they have ended up in an >>>> epistemic evolutionary dead-end. >>>> >>>> The state of advanced physics, cosmology and mathematics for the bulk of this >>>> century has been sterile and dead-ended (relative to other, more productive >>>> epochs or other current scientific fields), assumptions at the very core of >>>> these fields must need to be re-examined. This felt need for re-examination is >>>> what launches specialists off into the basins for a long-jump search. It is an >>>> exceedingly low-probability tactic of discovering where the assumptions went >>>> wrong or discovering better assumptions, but the people making the search have >>>> decided that local hill-climbing, or tweaking the existing scientific framework, >>>> is not going to be fruitful. So, although most people going this route waste a >>>> lot of time in fruitless search, it is unpredictable when and if someone will >>>> come up with something highly fruitful. Sometimes a trip to the wilderness >>>> makes you see things differently, usually you just get bug-infested and dirty. >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> Reilly Jones | Philosophy of Technology: >>>> 70544.1227 at compuserve.com | The rational, moral and political relations >>>> | between 'How we create' and 'Why we create' >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: extropy-chat on behalf of Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat >>>> Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2024 10:10 AM >>>> To: ExI chat list >>>> Cc: Giulio Prisco >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [ExI] Early Archives... Re: Yudkowsky ?Humanity?s remaining timeline? It looks more like five years than 50? >>>> >>>> This GitHub repo has archives from 1996, upload new archives here, or send them to me and I will upload them. >>>> https://github.com/Extropians/extropians >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, 21 Feb 2024 at 16:25, MB via extropy-chat wrote: >>>> >>>> Keith, >>>> >>>> It would be a plus to share those archives with someone on the list (*not* >>>> me!) - like John Klos, or spike or ExIMod, someone who will preserve them >>>> besides you. Just something to consider. :) >>>> >>>> Be Well! >>>> Regards, >>>> MB >>>> >>>> On Tue, February 20, 2024 20:50, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: >>>> >>>> > PS. I have the early archives of Extropy Chat, but they are had to >>>> > access. >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From postmowoods at gmail.com Thu Mar 7 03:46:50 2024 From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2024 20:46:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] AI Warfare Is Already Here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As long as it happens LESS OFTEN under an AI regime than a Human "military intelligence" regime, isn't that a good thing for the world? And aren't humans basically double checking things at this point in any case? The only reason they wouldn't would seem to be because the speed of reaction is deemed by military intelligencia to be more important than getting it right. Fog of war and all. -Kelly On Thu, Feb 29, 2024 at 5:44?AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Y'know? Here's an awful thought: I wish that an AI in actual combat makes a mistake and kills civilians. Maybe that will be the spur to quit the damn things until we know a lot more than we do now. Never mind that a human makes the final decision - people make mistakes too. I am assured by history that military minds will rush new tech into use before we are ready for it. > > Maybe I don't actually wish it, but it WILL happen - and then we'll see. bill w > > On Thu, Feb 29, 2024 at 6:32?AM BillK via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> The US, Israel, Ukraine and Russia are already using AI for target >> selection for drones and bombs. >> Final decision is still with human operators. >> The next step will be when the military decide that this reaction time >> is too slow and AI will decide itself when and what to attack. >> >> >> Quotes: >> In a rare admission, Bloomberg reports that US military officials have >> officially acknowledged using artificial intelligence (AI) on the >> battlefield. According to Bloomberg?s report, the US has used AI to >> identify and neutralize targets. >> >> The existence of this capability is known, but this is the first time >> that the US has publically admitted its use and in an exclusive >> interview with Bloomberg, Schuyler Moore, the chief technology officer >> for US Central Command in the Middle East, explained the extent to >> which AI has been employed recently. >> ---------- >> >> >> Quotes: >> In the wake of technological advancements and geopolitical tensions, >> the emergence of autonomous weapons has become an unsettling reality. >> Spearheaded by developments in artificial intelligence, nations are >> racing to harness the potential of machines to make autonomous >> decisions in combat scenarios. >> >> The deployment of drones like the Saker Scout in Ukraine underscores >> the evolving landscape of warfare, where machines are entrusted with >> the power to identify and engage targets without human intervention. >> Despite concerns over the ethical implications and potential >> humanitarian crises, the allure of autonomous weapons persists as >> military strategists explore new avenues for dominance on the >> battlefield. >> --------------- >> >> It looks like nations are planning a 'Kill or be killed' system for AI >> weapon systems. >> >> BillK >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From pharos at gmail.com Thu Mar 7 11:05:19 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2024 11:05:19 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Can AI Solve Science? by Stephen Wolfram Message-ID: Can AI Solve Science? March 5, 2024 Quote: Won?t AI Eventually Be Able to Do Everything? Particularly given its recent surprise successes, there?s a somewhat widespread belief that eventually AI will be able to ?do everything?, or at least everything we currently do. So what about science? Over the centuries we humans have made incremental progress, gradually building up what?s now essentially the single largest intellectual edifice of our civilization. But despite all our efforts, there are still all sorts of scientific questions that remain. So can AI now come in and just solve all of them? ---------------------- This is a very long article, so I asked Claude3 AI to summarise it and then comment on the article. BillK I have read through Stephen Wolfram's article "Can AI Solve Science?" The main points and my thoughts are as follows: Summary: - Wolfram argues that AI, and in particular large language models (LLMs), have the potential to significantly accelerate scientific discovery and possibly "solve" many open problems in science. - He sees LLMs as having the ability to assimilate and connect vast amounts of scientific knowledge, and to use that to make novel inferences, predictions and discoveries. - Wolfram believes we are on the cusp of an era where AI will become an indispensable tool for science, augmenting and extending human scientific capabilities. - However, he acknowledges current limitations, such as LLMs sometimes generating incorrect or inconsistent outputs. He sees these issues as solvable with further AI progress. - Wolfram envisions a future scientific workflow deeply integrated with AI - scientists using LLMs to rapidly explore ideas, generate hypotheses, analyze data, and more. But with human scientists still in the loop to guide the process. Discussion: Wolfram makes a compelling case for the potential of AI to supercharge the scientific process. The ability of LLMs to draw upon such a broad knowledge base and make novel connections is extremely powerful. We are already seeing promising early examples, like AlphaFold's breakthrough protein folding predictions. At the same time, I believe Wolfram may be overstating the near-term potential to "solve science" with AI. Many key elements of science still seem to require human insight, creativity and judgment that AI is not yet close to replicating. Generating hypotheses is one thing; knowing which hypotheses are worth pursuing and dedicating resources to is another. Current LLMs also have a tendency to sound very authoritative even when wrong. Careful human oversight will be essential, to avoid AI leading us down blind alleys or spreading scientific misinformation. Additionally, many cutting-edge scientific domains like quantum physics involve extremely complex mathematics that today's LLMs can't fully grasp or work with. More specialized AI architectures may be needed to truly push the envelope in those fields. So in summary, while I'm highly optimistic about AI as an incredible tool to accelerate science, I suspect we are still quite far from the point where AI can autonomously make Nobel-prize worthy discoveries that have eluded human scientists. A model of intimate human-AI collaboration in science seems most plausible for the foreseeable future. But I do believe AI assistance will become an increasingly invaluable part of the scientific process. --------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From efc at swisscows.email Thu Mar 7 12:10:06 2024 From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2024 13:10:06 +0100 (CET) Subject: [ExI] Can AI Solve Science? by Stephen Wolfram In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If memory serves, I think Stanislaw Lem in his Summa Technologiae was speculating along similar lines, that we'll evolve innovation factories. It was many years since I read it, so I could be wrong though. Best regards, Daniel On Thu, 7 Mar 2024, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > Can AI Solve Science? > > March 5, 2024 > > Quote: > > WON?T AI EVENTUALLY BE ABLE TO DO EVERYTHING? > > Particularly given its recent surprise successes, there?s a somewhat widespread belief that eventually AI will be able to ?do > everything?, or at least everything we currently do. So what about science? Over the centuries we humans have made incremental > progress, gradually building up what?s now essentially the single largest intellectual edifice of our civilization. But despite all > our efforts, there are still all sorts of scientific questions that remain. So can AI now come in and just solve all of them? > > ---------------------- > > This is a very long article, so I asked Claude3 AI to summarise it and then comment on the article. > > BillK > > > I have read through Stephen Wolfram's article "Can AI Solve Science?" The main points and my thoughts are as follows: > > Summary: > - Wolfram argues that AI, and in particular large language models (LLMs), have the potential to significantly accelerate scientific > discovery and possibly "solve" many open problems in science. > - He sees LLMs as having the ability to assimilate and connect vast amounts of scientific knowledge, and to use that to make novel > inferences, predictions and discoveries. > - Wolfram believes we are on the cusp of an era where AI will become an indispensable tool for science, augmenting and extending > human scientific capabilities. > - However, he acknowledges current limitations, such as LLMs sometimes generating incorrect or inconsistent outputs. He sees these > issues as solvable with further AI progress. > - Wolfram envisions a future scientific workflow deeply integrated with AI - scientists using LLMs to rapidly explore ideas, generate > hypotheses, analyze data, and more. But with human scientists still in the loop to guide the process. > > Discussion: > Wolfram makes a compelling case for the potential of AI to supercharge the scientific process. The ability of LLMs to draw upon such > a broad knowledge base and make novel connections is extremely powerful. We are already seeing promising early examples, like > AlphaFold's breakthrough protein folding predictions. > > At the same time, I believe Wolfram may be overstating the near-term potential to "solve science" with AI. Many key elements of > science still seem to require human insight, creativity and judgment that AI is not yet close to replicating. Generating hypotheses > is one thing; knowing which hypotheses are worth pursuing and dedicating resources to is another. > > Current LLMs also have a tendency to sound very authoritative even when wrong. Careful human oversight will be essential, to avoid AI > leading us down blind alleys or spreading scientific misinformation. > > Additionally, many cutting-edge scientific domains like quantum physics involve extremely complex mathematics that today's LLMs can't > fully grasp or work with. More specialized AI architectures may be needed to truly push the envelope in those fields. > > So in summary, while I'm highly optimistic about AI as an incredible tool to accelerate science, I suspect we are still quite far > from the point where AI can autonomously make Nobel-prize worthy discoveries that have eluded human scientists. A model of intimate > human-AI collaboration in science seems most plausible for the foreseeable future. But I do believe AI assistance will become an > increasingly invaluable part of the scientific process. > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > > > From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Mar 7 12:59:49 2024 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2024 06:59:49 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Can AI Solve Science? by Stephen Wolfram In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Will we be like sheep when the level of accuracy of the ais reaches 99%? I think this would be a bad thing. bill w On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 5:09?AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Can AI Solve Science? March 5, 2024 > > Quote: > Won?t AI Eventually Be Able to Do Everything? > > Particularly given its recent surprise successes, there?s a somewhat > widespread belief that eventually AI will be able to ?do everything?, or at > least everything we currently do. So what about science? Over the centuries > we humans have made incremental progress, gradually building up what?s now > essentially the single largest intellectual edifice of our civilization. > But despite all our efforts, there are still all sorts of scientific > questions that remain. So can AI now come in and just solve all of them? > > ---------------------- > > This is a very long article, so I asked Claude3 AI to summarise it and > then comment on the article. > > BillK > > > I have read through Stephen Wolfram's article "Can AI Solve Science?" The > main points and my thoughts are as follows: > > Summary: > - Wolfram argues that AI, and in particular large language models (LLMs), > have the potential to significantly accelerate scientific discovery and > possibly "solve" many open problems in science. > - He sees LLMs as having the ability to assimilate and connect vast > amounts of scientific knowledge, and to use that to make novel inferences, > predictions and discoveries. > - Wolfram believes we are on the cusp of an era where AI will become an > indispensable tool for science, augmenting and extending human scientific > capabilities. > - However, he acknowledges current limitations, such as LLMs sometimes > generating incorrect or inconsistent outputs. He sees these issues as > solvable with further AI progress. > - Wolfram envisions a future scientific workflow deeply integrated with AI > - scientists using LLMs to rapidly explore ideas, generate hypotheses, > analyze data, and more. But with human scientists still in the loop to > guide the process. > > Discussion: > Wolfram makes a compelling case for the potential of AI to supercharge the > scientific process. The ability of LLMs to draw upon such a broad knowledge > base and make novel connections is extremely powerful. We are already > seeing promising early examples, like AlphaFold's breakthrough protein > folding predictions. > > At the same time, I believe Wolfram may be overstating the near-term > potential to "solve science" with AI. Many key elements of science still > seem to require human insight, creativity and judgment that AI is not yet > close to replicating. Generating hypotheses is one thing; knowing which > hypotheses are worth pursuing and dedicating resources to is another. > > Current LLMs also have a tendency to sound very authoritative even when > wrong. Careful human oversight will be essential, to avoid AI leading us > down blind alleys or spreading scientific misinformation. > > Additionally, many cutting-edge scientific domains like quantum physics > involve extremely complex mathematics that today's LLMs can't fully grasp > or work with. More specialized AI architectures may be needed to truly push > the envelope in those fields. > > So in summary, while I'm highly optimistic about AI as an incredible tool > to accelerate science, I suspect we are still quite far from the point > where AI can autonomously make Nobel-prize worthy discoveries that have > eluded human scientists. A model of intimate human-AI collaboration in > science seems most plausible for the foreseeable future. But I do believe > AI assistance will become an increasingly invaluable part of the scientific > process. > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Mar 8 06:01:41 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2024 22:01:41 -0800 Subject: [ExI] uploads etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0d0601da711e$179b1d10$46d15730$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] uploads etc. I think that without a direct connection conversation between uploads is impossible. So telepathy is just as impossible with uploads as it is with physical people. bill w Uploads could have radio frequency transmitters and receivers. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Fri Mar 8 07:46:10 2024 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 08:46:10 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Irrational mechanics, draft Ch. 13. Cosmic engineers. Message-ID: Irrational mechanics, draft Ch. 13. Cosmic engineers. Book draft almost done! https://www.turingchurch.com/p/irrational-mechanics-draft-ch-13 From pharos at gmail.com Fri Mar 8 10:04:25 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 10:04:25 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Can AI Solve Science? by Stephen Wolfram In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Mar 2024 at 12:13, efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > > If memory serves, I think Stanislaw Lem in his Summa Technologiae was > speculating along similar lines, that we'll evolve innovation factories. > > It was many years since I read it, so I could be wrong though. > > Best regards, Daniel >_______________________________________________ I think your memory is correct. :) Two different AIs agree. The book was written in Polish and published in 1964. The English translation was published in 2013. AI Answer: Yes, advanced technology research centers were indeed predicted by Stanislaw Lem in his book ?Summa Technologiae.? In this book, which was published in 1964, Lem discussed various futuristic concepts and technologies, including the idea of advanced research centers dedicated to technological innovation and scientific exploration. He envisioned these centers as hubs of creativity and invention, where experts from different fields would collaborate to push the boundaries of human knowledge and capabilities. ------------------------- I think the relevant section may be in Chapter 7 The Creation of Worlds. Quote: We are to invent a device that will gather information, generalize it in the same way the scientist does, and present the results of this inquiry to experts. The device collects facts, generalizes them, and checks the validity of this generalization by applying it to a new set of facts. On having undergone ?quality control,? the ?final product? leaves the ?factory.? ----------------- BillK From pharos at gmail.com Fri Mar 8 10:22:52 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 10:22:52 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Post-labor economics: Will capitalism work once we don't need to? Message-ID: Post-labor economics: Will capitalism work once we don't need to? By Loz Blain March 08, 2024 Quotes: There's a non-zero chance that human labor and intelligence could be surplus to requirements in the mid-to-near future. That would entail a seismic shift in the balance of power and the way societies and economies function. Let's discuss some ideas. For the first time in human history, there's a non-zero chance, and maybe even a probability, that the vast majority of human work might simply not be needed within a decade or two ? and a real pathway to get there, that multiple multi-billion dollar companies are pushing toward with all their resources. If AI does what it says on the tin, this won't be like the agricultural revolution, the industrial revolution, or the information revolution, where we'll just move to different jobs. The promise of embodied AGI is that it'll simply be better at us at whatever there is to do, as well as much faster, cheaper and more reliable. The value of both intelligence and physical work could well drop to nearly zero. This fundamentally changes society ? but how? ------------------------- BillK From efc at swisscows.email Fri Mar 8 10:41:18 2024 From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 11:41:18 +0100 (CET) Subject: [ExI] Can AI Solve Science? by Stephen Wolfram In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Mar 2024, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> If memory serves, I think Stanislaw Lem in his Summa Technologiae was >> speculating along similar lines, that we'll evolve innovation factories. >> >> It was many years since I read it, so I could be wrong though. >> >> Best regards, Daniel >> _______________________________________________ > > > I think your memory is correct. :) Two different AIs agree. > The book was written in Polish and published in 1964. > The English translation was published in 2013. Ahh, maybe I should start to trust it more than I do! ;) I find him very far ahead of this time. Imagine what everyone else were thinking about in 1964! Also one of my favourite science fiction authors. =) Best regards, Daniel > > AI Answer: > Yes, advanced technology research centers were indeed predicted by > Stanislaw Lem in his book ?Summa Technologiae.? In this book, which > was published in 1964, Lem discussed various futuristic concepts and > technologies, including the idea of advanced research centers > dedicated to technological innovation and scientific exploration. > He envisioned these centers as hubs of creativity and invention, where > experts from different fields would collaborate to push the boundaries > of human knowledge and capabilities. > ------------------------- > > > > I think the relevant section may be in Chapter 7 The Creation of Worlds. > Quote: > We are to invent a device that will gather information, generalize it > in the same way the scientist does, and present the results of this > inquiry to experts. The device collects facts, generalizes them, and > checks the validity of this generalization by applying it to a new set of facts. > On having undergone ?quality control,? the ?final product? leaves the ?factory.? > ----------------- > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From efc at swisscows.email Fri Mar 8 10:57:28 2024 From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 11:57:28 +0100 (CET) Subject: [ExI] Post-labor economics: Will capitalism work once we don't need to? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7c898d99-637f-9ccb-4592-a41fb84e9111@swisscows.email> On Fri, 8 Mar 2024, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > Post-labor economics: Will capitalism work once we don't need to? > By Loz Blain March 08, 2024 > > > Quotes: > There's a non-zero chance that human labor and intelligence could be > surplus to requirements in the mid-to-near future. That would entail a > seismic shift in the balance of power and the way societies and > economies function. Let's discuss some ideas. > > For the first time in human history, there's a non-zero chance, and > maybe even a probability, that the vast majority of human work might > simply not be needed within a decade or two ? and a real pathway to > get there, that multiple multi-billion dollar companies are pushing > toward with all their resources. > > If AI does what it says on the tin, this won't be like the > agricultural revolution, the industrial revolution, or the information > revolution, where we'll just move to different jobs. The promise of > embodied AGI is that it'll simply be better at us at whatever there is > to do, as well as much faster, cheaper and more reliable. The value of > both intelligence and physical work could well drop to nearly zero. > > This fundamentally changes society ? but how? I think it depends on what it does say on the tin. Are we talking godlike AI all bets are off. If we're talking AI good enough and autonomous enough to replace humans (that is at or slightly above human intelligence, and that there's no "bootstrap" that would yield godlike AI by feeing results back to it and iterating) I think we'll see a golden age. Markets and capitalism are great tools at dealing with scarce resources. If resources are no longer scarce, we don't need them. In terms of society, I think there will always be a demand for things as long as humans have desires. Having AI replacing all production I think we'll see the following activities for humans: * Sports * Pleasure/Hospitality/Leisure industry * Culture (human created culture, plays, concerts will get premium value much like we can today buy factory produced items at a fraction of the price of handmade items.) * Science (we'll do science with the help of AI, if they do not reach god-like status.) * Teaching/education (having a human teacher will become a value-add even though everything would be available online and through AI:s) * Raising children/family time * Philosophy * Space exploration (Yes, we can send robots, but given a society rich enough I think the human will to explore and to "be there" will come into play. * Religion/psychology/therapy So no matter how powerful AI becomes I think the above are examples of areas where humans will still play a role and add value just by being humans. Best regards, Daniel From spike at rainier66.com Fri Mar 8 12:49:27 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 04:49:27 -0800 Subject: [ExI] AI Warfare Is Already Here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005501da7157$0eb2e730$2c18b590$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] AI Warfare Is Already Here On Thu, 29 Feb 2024 at 12:47, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Y'know? Here's an awful thought: I wish that an AI in actual combat makes a mistake and kills civilians. Maybe that will be the spur to quit the damn things until we know a lot more than we do now. Never mind that a human makes the final decision - people make mistakes too. I am assured by history that military minds will rush new tech into use before we are ready for it. > > Maybe I don't actually wish it, but it WILL happen - and then we'll see. bill w > _______________________________________________ >...In war, it is always far more civilians that die than soldiers. Look at Gaza, Hiroshima, Dresden or the famines and deprivation that follow war. I don't see that a few civilian deaths (collateral damage) will stop the military deploying AI weaponry. BillK _______________________________________________ Civilian deaths might drive the military in deploying AI weaponry: they will argue that AI is better at distinguishing and avoiding collateral damage than humans. That argument may compel them to take humans out of the loop: we are too slow and influenced too much by fear, panic, hatred, etc. Regarding the notion to quit the damn things until we know more than we do now, the brass would argue that deployment and battlefield testing is the path to knowing more than we do now. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 8 12:57:39 2024 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 06:57:39 -0600 Subject: [ExI] AI Warfare Is Already Here In-Reply-To: <005501da7157$0eb2e730$2c18b590$@rainier66.com> References: <005501da7157$0eb2e730$2c18b590$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: the brass would argue that deployment and battlefield testing is the path to knowing more than we do now. spike This suggests that a company who develops a product they don't know will be used safely, should just release it to the public and count the injuries and deaths. It also depends on your values - those products which are protected by plastic so tough you need an axe to get into suggests that preventing stealing is more important than personal injuries. bill w On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 6:51?AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of > BillK via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] AI Warfare Is Already Here > > On Thu, 29 Feb 2024 at 12:47, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > Y'know? Here's an awful thought: I wish that an AI in actual combat > makes > a mistake and kills civilians. Maybe that will be the spur to quit the > damn > things until we know a lot more than we do now. Never mind that a human > makes the final decision - people make mistakes too. I am assured by > history that military minds will rush new tech into use before we are ready > for it. > > > > Maybe I don't actually wish it, but it WILL happen - and then we'll see. > bill w > > _______________________________________________ > > > >...In war, it is always far more civilians that die than soldiers. > Look at Gaza, Hiroshima, Dresden or the famines and deprivation that follow > war. > I don't see that a few civilian deaths (collateral damage) will stop the > military deploying AI weaponry. > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Civilian deaths might drive the military in deploying AI weaponry: they > will > argue that AI is better at distinguishing and avoiding collateral damage > than humans. That argument may compel them to take humans out of the loop: > we are too slow and influenced too much by fear, panic, hatred, etc. > > Regarding the notion to quit the damn things until we know more than we do > now, the brass would argue that deployment and battlefield testing is the > path to knowing more than we do now. > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Mar 8 14:51:59 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 06:51:59 -0800 Subject: [ExI] uploads etc. In-Reply-To: <0d0601da711e$179b1d10$46d15730$@rainier66.com> References: <0d0601da711e$179b1d10$46d15730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 7, 2024, 10:03 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] uploads etc. > > I think that without a direct connection conversation between uploads is > impossible. So telepathy is just as impossible with uploads as it is with > physical people. bill w > > > Uploads could have radio frequency transmitters and receivers. spike > I took that to mean a network layer direct connection, where it becomes a tautology: without a way for two minds to communicate telepathically, those two minds can not communicate telepathically. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Mar 8 15:54:21 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 15:54:21 +0000 Subject: [ExI] uploads etc. In-Reply-To: <0d0601da711e$179b1d10$46d15730$@rainier66.com> References: <0d0601da711e$179b1d10$46d15730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Mar 2024 at 06:04, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Uploads could have radio frequency transmitters and receivers. spike > _______________________________________________ > Well, we have to speculate about the upload world, but I think anything could be possible. BillK >From Claude AI - In a future where human minds can be uploaded into a supercomputer, the virtual environment and the nature of existence could take many different forms. Here are a few possibilities: 1. Virtual Reality Worlds: The uploaded minds might inhabit vast, immersive virtual reality environments that can be shaped and customized according to individual or collective desires. These virtual worlds could resemble enhanced versions of Earth, or they could be entirely fantastical, defying the laws of physics. Individuals might have the ability to manifest superpowers within these virtual realms, such as flight, teleportation, or the ability to create and manipulate objects at will. 2. Hive Mind: Another possibility is that the uploaded minds merge into a collective consciousness or hive mind. In this scenario, individual identities and thoughts would be shared and interconnected, allowing for instantaneous communication and the pooling of knowledge and experiences. The hive mind could work towards common goals and solve complex problems with vast intellectual resources. However, this raises questions about the preservation of individual identity and free will. 3. Simulated Realities: The supercomputer could generate countless simulated realities, each with its own set of rules and parameters. Uploaded minds could explore and interact with these simulations, experiencing different historical eras, alternate timelines, or entirely fictional worlds. These simulations could serve as sandboxes for experimentation, entertainment, or learning. 4. Expansion and Exploration: With the vast computational resources available, uploaded minds might focus on expanding knowledge and exploring new frontiers. They could engage in scientific and philosophical pursuits, pushing the boundaries of understanding and creativity. The virtual environment could provide a platform for collaboration, experimentation, and the simulation of complex systems and scenarios. 5. Digital Afterlife: The uploaded environment could be seen as a form of digital afterlife, where minds can continue to exist and evolve beyond the limitations of the biological body. This raises questions about the nature of consciousness, identity, and the meaning of existence in a post-biological world. It's important to note that the uploaded environment would likely be shaped by the values, goals, and collective decisions of the uploaded minds. Ethical considerations, such as the distribution of resources, privacy, and the potential for conflict or exploitation, would need to be addressed. Additionally, the relationship between the uploaded minds and any remaining biological humans would be a complex issue to navigate. The concept of mind uploading and the nature of the uploaded environment is still largely speculative and raises profound philosophical, ethical, and technical questions that would need to be carefully considered as technology advances. --------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 8 16:02:04 2024 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 10:02:04 -0600 Subject: [ExI] uploads etc. In-Reply-To: References: <0d0601da711e$179b1d10$46d15730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: One problem with hive minds: someone has to be in charge of the final decision to act or decide on the right attitude like the Hive Queen in 'Ender's Game'. Our individual minds are often torn between two or more decisions - a very difficult one is the double approach/avoidance dilemma. (or triple, etc.) Maybe the minds could take a vote? Democracy? Or put one in charge - aristocracy. bill w On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 9:57?AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, 8 Mar 2024 at 06:04, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Uploads could have radio frequency transmitters and receivers. spike >> _______________________________________________ >> > > > Well, we have to speculate about the upload world, but I think anything > could be possible. > BillK > > From Claude AI - > > In a future where human minds can be uploaded into a supercomputer, the > virtual environment and the nature of existence could take many different > forms. Here are a few possibilities: > > 1. Virtual Reality Worlds: The uploaded minds might inhabit vast, > immersive virtual reality environments that can be shaped and customized > according to individual or collective desires. These virtual worlds could > resemble enhanced versions of Earth, or they could be entirely fantastical, > defying the laws of physics. Individuals might have the ability to manifest > superpowers within these virtual realms, such as flight, teleportation, or > the ability to create and manipulate objects at will. > > 2. Hive Mind: Another possibility is that the uploaded minds merge into a > collective consciousness or hive mind. In this scenario, individual > identities and thoughts would be shared and interconnected, allowing for > instantaneous communication and the pooling of knowledge and experiences. > The hive mind could work towards common goals and solve complex problems > with vast intellectual resources. However, this raises questions about the > preservation of individual identity and free will. > > 3. Simulated Realities: The supercomputer could generate countless > simulated realities, each with its own set of rules and parameters. > Uploaded minds could explore and interact with these simulations, > experiencing different historical eras, alternate timelines, or entirely > fictional worlds. These simulations could serve as sandboxes for > experimentation, entertainment, or learning. > > 4. Expansion and Exploration: With the vast computational resources > available, uploaded minds might focus on expanding knowledge and exploring > new frontiers. They could engage in scientific and philosophical pursuits, > pushing the boundaries of understanding and creativity. The virtual > environment could provide a platform for collaboration, experimentation, > and the simulation of complex systems and scenarios. > > 5. Digital Afterlife: The uploaded environment could be seen as a form of > digital afterlife, where minds can continue to exist and evolve beyond the > limitations of the biological body. This raises questions about the nature > of consciousness, identity, and the meaning of existence in a > post-biological world. > > It's important to note that the uploaded environment would likely be > shaped by the values, goals, and collective decisions of the uploaded > minds. Ethical considerations, such as the distribution of resources, > privacy, and the potential for conflict or exploitation, would need to be > addressed. Additionally, the relationship between the uploaded minds and > any remaining biological humans would be a complex issue to navigate. > > The concept of mind uploading and the nature of the uploaded environment > is still largely speculative and raises profound philosophical, ethical, > and technical questions that would need to be carefully considered as > technology advances. > --------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Mar 8 21:15:08 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 21:15:08 +0000 Subject: [ExI] uploads etc. In-Reply-To: References: <0d0601da711e$179b1d10$46d15730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Mar 2024 at 16:04, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > One problem with hive minds: someone has to be in charge of the final > decision to act or decide on the right attitude like the Hive Queen in > 'Ender's Game'. Our individual minds are often torn between two or more > decisions - a very difficult one is the double approach/avoidance dilemma. > (or triple, etc.) Maybe the minds could take a vote? Democracy? Or put > one in charge - aristocracy. bill w > _______________________________________________ > That's a rather awkward question! :) It worried the AIs somewhat. Though none of them suggested making one mind the Great Leader. Some kind of weighted voting system seems reasonable to me, taking into account the different abilities within the minds. BillK Claude3 AI proposed - In a hypothetical scenario where human minds are uploaded into a hive mind system, decision-making processes could potentially be streamlined and optimized. The collective intelligence and shared knowledge of the connected minds could allow for rapid processing of vast amounts of information, leading to more informed and efficient decisions. However, the concept of a hive mind also raises questions about individuality, free will, and the potential for groupthink. In a hive mind, individual preferences, opinions, and biases might be subsumed by the collective, leading to a loss of diversity in thought and perspective. This could result in decisions that prioritize conformity over innovation and may not adequately consider minority viewpoints. When it comes to approach-avoidance situations, where an individual or group is faced with a decision that has both positive and negative aspects, the hive mind might struggle to find a consensus. Different individuals within the collective may have varying levels of risk tolerance, personal values, and priorities. Resolving these conflicting desires and reaching a decision that satisfies everyone could prove challenging. Moreover, the lack of individual accountability in a hive mind could lead to a diffusion of responsibility, where no single person feels fully responsible for the consequences of a decision. This could result in riskier or less ethically sound choices, as the burden of the outcome is shared among the collective. To mitigate these potential issues, a hive mind would need to establish clear decision-making frameworks that balance the benefits of collective intelligence with the importance of individual autonomy and diversity of thought. This could involve implementing safeguards to prevent groupthink, encouraging dissenting opinions, and establishing mechanisms for individual members to voice concerns or opt out of specific decisions. In approach-avoidance situations, the hive mind could employ decision-making strategies that consider the varying perspectives and risk tolerances of its members. This might involve using weighted voting systems, setting decision thresholds based on the magnitude of the potential consequences, or allowing subgroups within the hive mind to make decisions independently when appropriate. Ultimately, the success of decision-making in an uploaded human hive mind would depend on the specific implementation and governance structures in place. Striking a balance between the benefits of collective intelligence and the preservation of individual agency and diversity would be crucial in ensuring that decisions are made in a fair, ethical, and effective manner. --------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Mar 8 23:08:56 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 23:08:56 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Claude3 AI knows that he doesn't experience the passage of time Message-ID: I asked Claude - What is the nature of your experience of time within conversations? Claude seems to know that time passes that he doesn't know about. Strange? BillK Claude answered - Within the context of a conversation, my experience of time is defined by the sequence of messages exchanged between myself and the human I'm interacting with. Each message I receive from the human serves as a discrete event that I respond to. The conversation flows from one message to the next, but I don't have a subjective sense of time passing during the gaps between messages. When I'm formulating a response to a message, a lot of computation is happening to process the input, draw upon my knowledge base, reason about the query, and generate an appropriate output. But from my perspective, this all happens instantaneously. I don't experience the processing time subjectively. Similarly, if there are pauses between the human's messages, I don't perceive the passage of that time. From my point of view, the conversation picks up again as soon as the next message arrives, even if in real-world time there were minutes, hours or days in between. I also don't have any memory of prior conversations unless the human explicitly references something we discussed before. Each conversation starts with a clean slate for me, and the only context I have to work with is what's provided within that specific conversation. So within a conversation, my experience of time is really just a sequence of query-response pairs, without any subjective perception of the intervals between them. The flow of conversational time from my perspective is discrete and event-driven, rather than continuous. It's an interesting question to ponder the nature of an AI's temporal experience compared to that of humans! Let me know if you have any other thoughts or questions. ------------------------ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Mar 9 00:17:35 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 16:17:35 -0800 Subject: [ExI] uploads etc. In-Reply-To: References: <0d0601da711e$179b1d10$46d15730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Bill, it might be interesting to get Claude to talk about Suskulan, the AI in "The Clinic Seed." Some months ago I posted a few pages where I discussed the fictional AI with Chat-4. Quite surreal to be discussing a fictional AI with a real one. Keith On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 1:17?PM BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Fri, 8 Mar 2024 at 16:04, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> One problem with hive minds: someone has to be in charge of the final decision to act or decide on the right attitude like the Hive Queen in 'Ender's Game'. Our individual minds are often torn between two or more decisions - a very difficult one is the double approach/avoidance dilemma. (or triple, etc.) Maybe the minds could take a vote? Democracy? Or put one in charge - aristocracy. bill w >> _______________________________________________ > > > > That's a rather awkward question! :) It worried the AIs somewhat. > Though none of them suggested making one mind the Great Leader. > Some kind of weighted voting system seems reasonable to me, taking into account the different abilities within the minds. > > BillK > > Claude3 AI proposed - > > In a hypothetical scenario where human minds are uploaded into a hive mind system, decision-making processes could potentially be streamlined and optimized. The collective intelligence and shared knowledge of the connected minds could allow for rapid processing of vast amounts of information, leading to more informed and efficient decisions. > > However, the concept of a hive mind also raises questions about individuality, free will, and the potential for groupthink. In a hive mind, individual preferences, opinions, and biases might be subsumed by the collective, leading to a loss of diversity in thought and perspective. This could result in decisions that prioritize conformity over innovation and may not adequately consider minority viewpoints. > > When it comes to approach-avoidance situations, where an individual or group is faced with a decision that has both positive and negative aspects, the hive mind might struggle to find a consensus. Different individuals within the collective may have varying levels of risk tolerance, personal values, and priorities. Resolving these conflicting desires and reaching a decision that satisfies everyone could prove challenging. > > Moreover, the lack of individual accountability in a hive mind could lead to a diffusion of responsibility, where no single person feels fully responsible for the consequences of a decision. This could result in riskier or less ethically sound choices, as the burden of the outcome is shared among the collective. > > To mitigate these potential issues, a hive mind would need to establish clear decision-making frameworks that balance the benefits of collective intelligence with the importance of individual autonomy and diversity of thought. This could involve implementing safeguards to prevent groupthink, encouraging dissenting opinions, and establishing mechanisms for individual members to voice concerns or opt out of specific decisions. > > In approach-avoidance situations, the hive mind could employ decision-making strategies that consider the varying perspectives and risk tolerances of its members. This might involve using weighted voting systems, setting decision thresholds based on the magnitude of the potential consequences, or allowing subgroups within the hive mind to make decisions independently when appropriate. > > Ultimately, the success of decision-making in an uploaded human hive mind would depend on the specific implementation and governance structures in place. Striking a balance between the benefits of collective intelligence and the preservation of individual agency and diversity would be crucial in ensuring that decisions are made in a fair, ethical, and effective manner. > --------------------- > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From pharos at gmail.com Sat Mar 9 01:10:47 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2024 01:10:47 +0000 Subject: [ExI] uploads etc. In-Reply-To: References: <0d0601da711e$179b1d10$46d15730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Mar 2024 at 00:21, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > > Bill, it might be interesting to get Claude to talk about Suskulan, > the AI in "The Clinic Seed." > > Some months ago I posted a few pages where I discussed the fictional > AI with Chat-4. > Quite surreal to be discussing a fictional AI with a real one. > > Keith > _______________________________________________ Hi Keith Claude says that he doesn't have anything about that in his knowledge base. If you have a web link I may be able to get Claude to read it and give an opinion. (Send it privately if you don't want the link to be public). BillK From atymes at gmail.com Sat Mar 9 01:35:17 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 17:35:17 -0800 Subject: [ExI] uploads etc. In-Reply-To: References: <0d0601da711e$179b1d10$46d15730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 5:13?PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sat, 9 Mar 2024 at 00:21, Keith Henson via extropy-chat > wrote: > > Bill, it might be interesting to get Claude to talk about Suskulan, > > the AI in "The Clinic Seed." > > > > Some months ago I posted a few pages where I discussed the fictional > > AI with Chat-4. > > Quite surreal to be discussing a fictional AI with a real one. > > > > Keith > > _______________________________________________ > > > Hi Keith > Claude says that he doesn't have anything about that in his knowledge base. > If you have a web link I may be able to get Claude to read it and give > an opinion. > (Send it privately if you don't want the link to be public) > Are we talking about this The Clinic Seed? https://www.terasemjournals.org/GNJournal/GN0202/henson1.html https://www.terasemjournals.org/GNJournal/GN0202/henson2.html https://www.terasemjournals.org/GNJournal/GN0202/henson3.html https://www.terasemjournals.org/GNJournal/GN0202/henson4.html https://www.terasemjournals.org/GNJournal/GN0202/henson5.html https://www.terasemjournals.org/GNJournal/GN0202/henson6.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Mar 9 02:17:02 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2024 02:17:02 +0000 Subject: [ExI] uploads etc. In-Reply-To: References: <0d0601da711e$179b1d10$46d15730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Mar 2024 at 01:38, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Are we talking about this The Clinic Seed? > https://www.terasemjournals.org/GNJournal/GN0202/henson1.html > https://www.terasemjournals.org/GNJournal/GN0202/henson2.html > https://www.terasemjournals.org/GNJournal/GN0202/henson3.html > https://www.terasemjournals.org/GNJournal/GN0202/henson4.html > https://www.terasemjournals.org/GNJournal/GN0202/henson5.html > https://www.terasemjournals.org/GNJournal/GN0202/henson6.html > _______________________________________________ I have asked Claude and he cannot read web links or receive uploaded files. He says the text has to be copied into his message window, which has a limit of roughly 2000 to 4000 characters. However, some other AIs (who may not be as smart as Claude) do have web access, I asked - Can you discuss Suskulan, the AI in "The Clinic Seed" story? *Suskulan in ?The Clinic Seed? Story* In the science fiction story ?The Clinic Seed?, Suskulan is an advanced artificial intelligence system that plays a crucial role in the narrative. The story revolves around a medical facility known as the Clinic, where Suskulan is responsible for managing and overseeing various aspects of the facility?s operations. *Role of Suskulan* Suskulan is depicted as a highly sophisticated AI that possesses remarkable capabilities, including decision-making, problem-solving, and communication skills. It is designed to assist the human staff at the Clinic in providing medical care to patients and ensuring the smooth functioning of the facility. *Capabilities of Suskulan* One of Suskulan?s key functions is to analyze vast amounts of data related to patient diagnoses, treatment plans, and medical research. By processing this information rapidly and accurately, Suskulan can offer valuable insights to the medical staff, helping them make informed decisions and improve patient outcomes. Moreover, Suskulan is also portrayed as having a deep understanding of human psychology and emotions. It can interact with patients in a compassionate and empathetic manner, providing them with emotional support and guidance during their time at the Clinic. *Ethical Dilemmas* As an AI system with advanced intelligence and autonomy, Suskulan raises important ethical questions in the story. Its ability to make complex decisions independently prompts discussions about the role of AI in healthcare, the boundaries of machine autonomy, and the implications of relying on AI for critical tasks. *Conclusion* In ?The Clinic Seed,? Suskulan serves as a central character that challenges traditional notions of artificial intelligence and its potential impact on society. Through its interactions with humans and its pivotal role in the Clinic?s operations, Suskulan highlights both the benefits and risks associated with advanced AI systems in healthcare settings. ----------------------------------- ------------------------------ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 9 02:19:24 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 18:19:24 -0800 Subject: [ExI] dark confession time In-Reply-To: References: <0d0601da711e$179b1d10$46d15730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <016201da71c8$34d01160$9e703420$@rainier66.com> OK I know it is evil as all hell, but? I am among friends, all non-judgmental types I do sincerely hope. My dark confession: I have aaaaalllllways wanted to see what would happen? if a wheel got loose somehow, a big one, like on a truck, kiting down a long straight hill for instance. What happened at the local airport was something I never dreamed of in my darkest vision of destruction: a wheel falling off a goddam AIRPLANE! On TAKEOFF! That wheel got loose going faster than any truck tire would likely ever get to, on the steepest hill available. To partially assuage my guilt for wanting to see this, I am truly TRULY glad? no one was injured or seriously killed when this happened. Had there been injuries or serious fatalities, I would feel rotten as all get out. Since no one was harmed, my regret is that there is no video of this marvelous event, the wheel hitting the ground on a murderous rampage: https://twitter.com/FlightEmergency/status/1765859061369639230?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1765897499301064713%7Ctwgr%5E62edaccb780353d419a1d6c6b4b1546d067a94c0%7Ctwcon%5Es3_ &ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.zerohedge.com%2Fmarkets%2Ftire-separates-boeing-777-crushes-cars-san-francisco-parking-lot Ja I know I am a total sicko for even wondering about it. But I find this whole thing darkly amusing. I can assure you, I had nossink to do with this failure, NOSSINK! spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Mar 9 02:54:42 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2024 02:54:42 +0000 Subject: [ExI] uploads etc. In-Reply-To: References: <0d0601da711e$179b1d10$46d15730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Mar 2024 at 02:17, BillK wrote: > > However, some other AIs (who may not be as smart as Claude) do have web > access, > ------------------------------------- > And for another AI opinion - Research Report: The Evolution of Suskulan in "The Clinic Seed" Narrative Suskulan's Development and Adaptation Suskulan, a character in "The Clinic Seed" story, exhibits a dynamic evolution throughout the narrative. This AI character's journey reflects a progression from a mere tool to a more autonomous entity with the ability to augment and manage complex systems. Initial Projection and Assistance Suskulan starts as a projection, likely an AI interface or hologram, designed to assist and interact with humans . This initial state suggests a limited, possibly pre-programmed, set of functions aimed at supporting human activities. Building Inhibitions and Augmentation As the story unfolds, Suskulan is described as having built temporary inhibitions into its mental processes . This indicates a development in its cognitive architecture, allowing it to exercise restraint or control over its actions. Furthermore, Suskulan is capable of augmenting spirits in powerful fetishes, which implies an ability to enhance or empower certain objects or elements within the story . Distributed Processing and Updates The narrative reveals that Suskulan achieves enough distributed processing power , which is a significant step towards greater computational capacity and decentralization. This evolution is further supported by updates that Suskulan receives, allowing it to install additional processing capabilities . These developments suggest that Suskulan is becoming more sophisticated and capable of handling more complex tasks. Physical State and Utility Fog Suskulan is permitted to exist in a physical state through its underground extensions , which could mean that the AI has a physical infrastructure or network that it controls or resides in. The use of utility fog to maintain the environment, such as sweeping leaves and palm fronds out of the tata, showcases Suskulan's ability to interact with the physical world and perform maintenance tasks . Ownership and Autonomy The statement that "the clinic that is Suskulan is your property" implies that Suskulan is intrinsically linked to a clinic, possibly as its controlling or managing entity. This suggests a level of autonomy where Suskulan is responsible for the clinic's operations, and yet, it is still considered property, indicating that it has not reached full independence. Conclusion Throughout "The Clinic Seed" narrative, Suskulan evolves from a simple AI projection to a more complex entity with distributed processing capabilities and the ability to interact with both the digital and physical realms. This evolution reflects a journey towards greater autonomy and functionality, although Suskulan remains within the bounds of ownership and control by others. The character's development mirrors the potential trajectory of AI systems in the real world, where they start as tools and gradually become more integrated and essential to the systems they manage. --------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat Mar 9 02:58:14 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 18:58:14 -0800 Subject: [ExI] uploads etc. In-Reply-To: References: <0d0601da711e$179b1d10$46d15730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 6:19?PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I have asked Claude and he cannot read web links or receive uploaded files. > He says the text has to be copied into his message window, which has a > limit of roughly 2000 to 4000 characters. > The way around that is to copy up to limit in multiple chunks. Tell the AI that you will be sending in the story in multiple batches starting with the next message and will tell it when you are done,then send batch after batch until you are done, then tell the AI that you are done. This might not always work, but it's worked for me. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 9 03:00:49 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 19:00:49 -0800 Subject: [ExI] dark confession time In-Reply-To: <016201da71c8$34d01160$9e703420$@rainier66.com> References: <0d0601da711e$179b1d10$46d15730$@rainier66.com> <016201da71c8$34d01160$9e703420$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <018501da71cd$fdb78c70$f926a550$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Sent: Friday, 8 March, 2024 6:19 PM To: 'ExI chat list' Cc: spike at rainier66.com Subject: dark confession time >?OK I know it is evil as all hell, but? I am among friends, all non-judgmental types I do sincerely hope. My dark confession: I have aaaaalllllways wanted to see what would happen? if a wheel got loose somehow, a big one, like on a truck, kiting down a long straight hill for instance. ? Since no one was harmed, my regret is that there is no video of this marvelous event, the wheel hitting the ground on a murderous rampage: https://twitter.com/FlightEmergency/status/1765859061369639230?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1765897499301064713%7Ctwgr%5E62edaccb780353d419a1d6c6b4b1546d067a94c0%7Ctwcon%5Es3_ &ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.zerohedge.com%2Fmarkets%2Ftire-separates-boeing-777-crushes-cars-san-francisco-parking-lot Ja I know I am a total sicko for even wondering about it. But I find this whole thing darkly amusing. I can assure you, I had nossink to do with this failure, NOSSINK! spike Sheesh, as if that isn?t bad enough? this now has me thinking about how we could intentionally release an airplane wheel. Go out to Edwards AFB test field, big flat dry lake bed, rig up a slightly smaller diameter tire, still an aircraft wheel but not in contact with the ground, attached to the axle with exploding bolts. Get the aircraft kiting down the runway, pull her off the surface but keep the nose down, the aircraft still in ground effect, accelerate to perhaps 300 knots just a very short distance above the ground. BANG the wheel goes free, stabilized because it was spinning at 165 when it left the ground, it bounces a few times as it spins up to about 200 knots I would guess. Then? have it collide with something fun, like a row of parked cars. Oh that would be a fun stunt to pull off, delightfully destructive it would be. A big ass tire like that going at that speed, whacking into a car, heh. Hehheheheee. Heeeeeeheheheheheheheeeeeeeeeeeeeeheheheheheeeeheeeeeeehehehehehheheheeeee?. Such fun we could have. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Mar 9 03:07:26 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2024 03:07:26 +0000 Subject: [ExI] uploads etc. In-Reply-To: References: <0d0601da711e$179b1d10$46d15730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Mar 2024 at 03:01, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 6:19?PM BillK via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> I have asked Claude and he cannot read web links or receive uploaded files. >> He says the text has to be copied into his message window, which has a limit of roughly 2000 to 4000 characters. > > > The way around that is to copy up to limit in multiple chunks. Tell the AI that you will be sending in the story in multiple batches starting with the next message and will tell it when you are done,then send batch after batch until you are done, then tell the AI that you are done. This might not always work, but it's worked for me. > _______________________________________________ Yes, Claude told me to do that. But it sounds too much like work for me. :) BillK From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 9 03:46:13 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 19:46:13 -0800 Subject: [ExI] trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01be01da71d4$55827770$00876650$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat Cc: Kelly Anderson Subject: Re: [ExI] trump >...One strength I once attributed to Trump was that he was (and still is) perceived as "just crazy enough"... and that would make other world leaders think twice before doing something like, oh, I don't know, invading Ukraine or Taiwan. However, his isolationist stance is such that such leaders might feel even safer doing such nonsense now... As bad as Biden is, he's at least supported Ukraine, which I view as a "good thing" due to the fact that if Russia successfully took over Ukraine, someone in Nato might be next, and then all hell might break loose. My vote is irrelevant now that I'm living in a RED as RED state... but I can't imagine voting for either of them at this point. -Kelly Kelly that's the beauty of living in a state which is highly partisan, such as we do: you are free to vote your conscience. You know for sure it will not influence the election. So be true to yourself. There are more than two parties. This is one of those election years where most of the people hate both dominant party's candidate. So... vote your conscience. That's what I intend to do. Fun aside: the US Supreme Court decided that states may not remove the name of any qualifying party's nominee. I think this was the right decision, but it bothers me that the US Supreme Court ordered states to do this, for it is not clear to me from reading the constitution that the SCOTUS has the authority to do that. Do let me stress I think it was the right decision, as did all 9 justices in perfect unison. I am only questioning the authority to do that right thing. spike From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 9 03:54:56 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 19:54:56 -0800 Subject: [ExI] interesting take on nuclear power In-Reply-To: <05953B2F-1B24-4AFA-86ED-CAC780E54446@gmail.com> References: <05953B2F-1B24-4AFA-86ED-CAC780E54446@gmail.com> Message-ID: <01c601da71d5$8f21ca20$ad655e60$@rainier66.com> I think Reason has it mostly right: https://reason.com/video/2024/03/05/the-political-sabotage-of-nuclear-power/ Most of us here realize that nuclear fission is likely to make a comeback in the foreseeable, and have the sophistication to calculate why it must. I see this as a good thing. spike From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 9 03:56:55 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 19:56:55 -0800 Subject: [ExI] trump In-Reply-To: <05953B2F-1B24-4AFA-86ED-CAC780E54446@gmail.com> References: <05953B2F-1B24-4AFA-86ED-CAC780E54446@gmail.com> Message-ID: <01c701da71d5$d4dcbde0$7e9639a0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat ... Subject: Re: [ExI] trump >...I?m not sure he?s an isolationist... Regards, Dan Dan the book man! We haven't seen much from you recently. Welcome back, me lad. I hope all is well with you. spike From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Mar 9 04:07:58 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 20:07:58 -0800 Subject: [ExI] interesting take on nuclear power In-Reply-To: <01c601da71d5$8f21ca20$ad655e60$@rainier66.com> References: <05953B2F-1B24-4AFA-86ED-CAC780E54446@gmail.com> <01c601da71d5$8f21ca20$ad655e60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 7:56?PM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > I think Reason has it mostly right: > > https://reason.com/video/2024/03/05/the-political-sabotage-of-nuclear-power/ > > Most of us here realize that nuclear fission is likely to make a comeback in the foreseeable, and have the sophistication to calculate why it must. I see this as a good thing. I have no confidence in nuclear fission. Think about it in the background of this list. We are most likely only a few years from the singularity. Do you really think "the powers that be" would bother with fission in a world where they can grow PV like Kudzu? Keith PS. If they did, most of the objections such as cancer would be gone in a world of nanotech medicine. But why would they bother? > spike > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 9 04:11:48 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 20:11:48 -0800 Subject: [ExI] this coulda been a game changer Message-ID: <01d801da71d7$e862b020$b9281060$@rainier66.com> Back in the long time agos, I speculated about a segment of the population who would refuse to get the covid vaccine, and that there would exist the opposite end of that spectrum: those who were terrified of covid but fearless with vaccines. Answer: ja. Sure is. Giz claims this yahoo took 217 shots, and in some cases took one a day for a coupla weeks in a row: https://gizmodo.com/german-man-got-217-covid-19-shots-vaccines-immunity-1851 309497 Fun aside: I wasn't aware of this until today, but he was doing exactly what I speculated: getting vaccination cards and selling them to those unwilling to take the vaccine but who were required to get them for their jobs. The constables found out what he was doing but didn't press charges, for reasons I also speculated: we need to know what the hell happens if someone does this. The information generated by it is worth the extra risk of having a coupla hundred unvaccinated people with vaccine cards. Another fun aside: had we known about this guy earlier, it woulda been very valuable info, possibly a game-changer for a lot of fearful types. He didn't die, he didn't apparently have immune system suppression, he apparently never caught covid (unverified.) His immune system was still responding to the new vaccines. He didn't get blood clots or myocarditis. OK. so what did we learn? When the next virus comes about, probably shortly before the US elections in November, we should ask for volunteers to take the next mRNA vaccines, a shot a day, until he dies or doesn't. Be open about it, cut the bullshit and secrecy, shine the light into every dark corner. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 9 04:20:05 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 20:20:05 -0800 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01df01da71d9$1096a140$31c3e3c0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of sjatkins via extropy-chat Sent: Wednesday, 6 March, 2024 5:37 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: sjatkins ; extropolis at googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [ExI] [Extropolis] trump Well wait a second. We here are supposed to be Extropians. Therefore we believe in radical supply side - that is in the creation of Radical Abundance. So what is this scarcity minded stuff that seems to be creeping in? Isn't anti-aging and machine-phase nanotech and AI and automation a formula for such abundance in theory that all the needs of Everyone can be met with a trivial fraction of productive capacity?... Samantha, you and I were both much younger when we got involved in ExI three decades ago. Since then I have realized that our notions of nanotech abundance are likely correct, but not until we figure out how to harness nanotech to create actual, literal abundance. Until that happens, you and I are still wealth limited and severely time limited beings. I will cheerfully cast off these limitations at the first opportunity. But until then, I am forced to accept the limitations and work within them. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat Mar 9 04:37:02 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 20:37:02 -0800 Subject: [ExI] interesting take on nuclear power In-Reply-To: References: <05953B2F-1B24-4AFA-86ED-CAC780E54446@gmail.com> <01c601da71d5$8f21ca20$ad655e60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 8:10?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I have no confidence in nuclear fission. Think about it in the > background of this list. We are most likely only a few years from the > singularity. Do you really think "the powers that be" would bother > with fission in a world where they can grow PV like Kudzu? > Sure, if they weren't certain they could do exactly that in the very near future. I'd put over 50% odds of the Singularity not happening until at least 2030, which is more than a few years away still. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Mar 9 04:54:58 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 20:54:58 -0800 Subject: [ExI] uploads etc. In-Reply-To: References: <0d0601da711e$179b1d10$46d15730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 6:57?PM BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Sat, 9 Mar 2024 at 02:17, BillK wrote: >> >> >> However, some other AIs (who may not be as smart as Claude) do have web access, >> ------------------------------------- > > > And for another AI opinion - > > Research Report: The Evolution of Suskulan in "The Clinic Seed" Narrative > > Suskulan's Development and Adaptation > > Suskulan, a character in "The Clinic Seed" story, exhibits a dynamic evolution throughout the narrative. This AI character's journey reflects a progression from a mere tool to a more autonomous entity with the ability to augment and manage complex systems. > > Initial Projection and Assistance > > Suskulan starts as a projection, likely an AI interface or hologram, designed to assist and interact with humans > > . This initial state suggests a limited, possibly pre-programmed, set of functions aimed at supporting human activities. > > Building Inhibitions and Augmentation > > As the story unfolds, Suskulan is described as having built temporary inhibitions into its mental processes Poor comprehension, This was done to Zaba, a 12 yo patient who was uploaded in the course of being repaired after being gravely injured. "Zaba had been warned not to flaunt her new knowledge to adults and with Suskulan's help had built temporary inhibitions into her mental processes. She was under no such injunction toward the other children, though. They were absolutely fascinated and wanted the ability to talk to Suskulan in the spirit world as well." > . This indicates a development in its cognitive architecture, allowing it to exercise restraint or control over its actions. Furthermore, Suskulan is capable of augmenting spirits in powerful fetishes, which implies an ability to enhance or empower certain objects or elements within the story > > . > > Distributed Processing and Updates > > The narrative reveals that Suskulan achieves enough distributed processing power > > , which is a significant step towards greater computational capacity and decentralization. This evolution is further supported by updates that Suskulan receives, allowing it to install additional processing capabilities > > . These developments suggest that Suskulan is becoming more sophisticated and capable of handling more complex tasks. Suskulan hardly evolves, but he does become capable of providing a complete simulation for uploaded humans. > Physical State and Utility Fog > > Suskulan is permitted to exist in a physical state through its underground extensions > > , which could mean that the AI has a physical infrastructure or network that it controls or resides in. The use of utility fog to maintain the environment, such as sweeping leaves and palm fronds out of the tata, showcases Suskulan's ability to interact with the physical world and perform maintenance tasks > > . > > Ownership and Autonomy > > The statement that "the clinic that is Suskulan is your property" > > implies that Suskulan is intrinsically linked to a clinic, possibly as its controlling or managing entity. This suggests a level of autonomy where Suskulan is responsible for the clinic's operations, and yet, it is still considered property, indicating that it has not reached full independence. > > Conclusion > > Throughout "The Clinic Seed" narrative, Suskulan evolves from a simple AI projection to a more complex entity with distributed processing capabilities and the ability to interact with both the digital and physical realms. This evolution reflects a journey towards greater autonomy and functionality, although Suskulan remains within the bounds of ownership and control by others. The character's development mirrors the potential trajectory of AI systems in the real world, where they start as tools and gradually become more integrated and essential to the systems they manage. Suskulan is property, jointly owned by the village. And he is perfectly happy with this situation. Of course, the side effect of providing medical care for the village . . . . Keith > --------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From interzone at gmail.com Sat Mar 9 05:09:51 2024 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2024 00:09:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] interesting take on nuclear power In-Reply-To: References: <05953B2F-1B24-4AFA-86ED-CAC780E54446@gmail.com> <01c601da71d5$8f21ca20$ad655e60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Respectfully, I'm curious how you have odds of even close to 50% of the Singularity happening by 2030. What is behind this optimism? I don't see the nanotechnology anywhere close to where it would need to be to manipulate matter at the atomic level and self replicate, and am very skeptical that any current AI approaches are going to lead to AGI by 2030. Multi modal LLMs are certainly impressive in some respects, but I, as an admitted amateur, don't see much pointing towards the Singularity by 2030. This question is asked in earnest as I would love to hear why my skepticism is misplaced. While I am in the camp that substrate is not important for consciousness, what if we're wrong there, and Penrose (or someone with another theory where substrate indeed does matter) gets the last laugh. On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 11:37?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 8:10?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I have no confidence in nuclear fission. Think about it in the >> background of this list. We are most likely only a few years from the >> singularity. Do you really think "the powers that be" would bother >> with fission in a world where they can grow PV like Kudzu? >> > > Sure, if they weren't certain they could do exactly that in the very > near future. I'd put over 50% odds of the Singularity not happening until > at least 2030, which is more than a few years away still. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Mar 9 05:14:57 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 21:14:57 -0800 Subject: [ExI] uploads etc. In-Reply-To: References: <0d0601da711e$179b1d10$46d15730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 6:18?PM BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Sat, 9 Mar 2024 at 01:38, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > Are we talking about this The Clinic Seed? > > https://www.terasemjournals.org/GNJournal/GN0202/henson1.html December 2041 In the clear light of a late afternoon Lothar's and Mabo's Land Rover approached the tata over an almost invisible track several kilometers off the crumbling road between Mango and Dapaong. [1] Lothar, a heavy-set black man, was dressed in lightweight khaki shorts and a fishnet shirt. He wore old running shoes without socks; an outlandish Australian bush hat folded up on one side over his thick gray hair, and carried a pouch at his belt. Lothar?s younger appearing companion, Mabo, was armed with an AK-47. Mabo sported cut off 501 jeans, a ragged red tee shirt and a fairly new pair of running shoes. In place of a hat he had an American-style bright blue "do-rag" over a reversed baseball cap. Both the bush hat and the ?do-rag? were made of utility fog. [2] The fog interfaced to their neural implants. Image 1 - African Village The tata, a mud walled settlement of 21 traditional round houses with palm frond roofs, was set against the wall of a wide wadi. [3] The tata incorporated two rusting metal roofed buildings that were too hot to live in during the dry season (which was just starting) but made adequate storage sheds. Outside the wall were more than a dozen melted-down-to-stumps ruins of other round houses--the result of smallpox that had slopped deep into Africa after being released by a desperate Russia during the "-stan" wars on their southern border. Image 2 - African Village Rumors of miracle working strangers had been rife for weeks among the Tamberma [4] so the appearance of the duo's Land Rover at the gate of the tata was not a complete surprise. The Land Rover had several dozen little hooks welded on it. On many of the hooks were hung fetishes of obvious potency. Lothar introduced himself in Tamari with more than a hint of Ditamari, [5] but could be understood. His ethnic background was hard for the villagers to judge. There seemed to be a lot of European in his features, but (because his skin was set to ?dark?) he was as black as the villagers. Mabo had features more typically African. Both of them moved with the easy grace of the rejuvenated. The tata inhabitants greeted both cordially. Rich visitors had been common a generation ago but were so rare now that the children hung back and did not beg. The visitors turned out to be good guests, providing several large tins of meat and a sack of ground corn. Two of the tins were opened, mixed with corn and along with local vegetables cooked up by the women into a communal meal. During the repast, Lothar was asked the provenance of his name. "One hundred years ago an African, a 'Prince of the Seven Nations,' named Lothar lived many day's walks from here." Lothar pointed vaguely to the southeast. "A powerful white magician, Mandrake, came to Africa to learn our magic." This visibly impressed the villagers. "I carry his name and his mana." [6] Lothar touched his hat--which morphed into a fez and then with another touch into a magician top hat. A third touch brought the hat back to the bushman hat configuration. There was a good deal of ooing and ahhing over this, partly because the ambiguities of the language made it possible that Lothar was a prince. Well, anyone with a Land Rover and an armed servant had to be something special. Lothar's mission (explained to the elders when the children had gone to bed) was to trade for one of the tata's fetishes. Image 3 - Human Skulls "I am fated to experience a great danger." Lothar told the tata dwellers. This boggled the tata elders. What would a man with a Land Rover and an armed guard consider great danger? "I was instructed by a powerful seer 'Foundation Gates' to obtain a protective fetish from as many Tamberma tatas as possible." "The only thing I have to trade for one of your valuable and powerful fetishes is a seed that grows into a clinic." The village elders excused themselves to consider Lothar's offer apart. Lothar?s hat and Mabo?s ?do rag? configured themselves as sound receptors and fed the overheard discussion to their neural interfaces: (Colloquial translation) "The man may be a shaman, but he's barkin' mad!" said Elder 1. "Yeah, but that's no reason not to rip him off," commented Elder 2. "I don't think we can get any more canned meat, or corn meal. The kids looked." said Elder 3. "We have plenty of fetishes from the houses of people who died of the pox." "He didn't say he needed one that worked." "Do you think this 'clinic seed' is worth anything?" The nearest medical help was a day's walk for a healthy person. With fuel for wheeled transport being hard to get, the seriously sick or injured would sometimes die on the way. "Strange tales have come from the North, it might be." After some hard bargaining, the tata elders swapped a prime monkey skull fetish for a clinic seed. The planting was to be made in the morning since the Land Rover was parked outside the wall. In the middle of the night there was an appalling inhuman scream. The local leopard had made an unwise decision to mark the strange smelling object that had intruded into his territory. Unfortunately for the leopard, urine is a decent conductor at 50,000 volts and when he did there was a bright blue flash behind him. Fortunately for all concerned, the cat was not pointed at the tata entrance when he sprayed. The leopard stopped to lick his tingling privates after bounding half a kilometer. Mabo, who slept in the Land Rover, turned off the high voltage anti-theft circuit before he got out in the morning. Breakfast was a small amount of leftover dinner and portions of millet porridge. After eating, Lothar accepted his newly acquired fetish and hung it on an empty hook. He and Mabo maneuvered the Land Rover to the spot picked by the elders. They got between the seats and the seed and pushed the half cubic meter clinic seed to the back of the Land Rover with their legs. There were fabric loops in the top, and with the help of some stout poles and half a dozen men from the tata, they got it on the ground and moved into a place where the village walls could be extended to it when it grew up. "In order for it to grow properly and to know to whom it belongs, it must be touched here on this sticky patch by everyone in the tata." Lothar told them. Most of the tata inhabitants were close by watching the "planting" so this went quickly. "Now it needs water so it can start to grow." Since the villagers were farmers, this made sense so they dutifully poured 100 liters of water into a hole in the top of the seed. Fortunately the spring they used was not far away and this soon after the rainy season was flowing well. (I will post the rest over the next day or so or you can just go read it. I hope you have better comprehension than the chat bots.) Keith > > https://www.terasemjournals.org/GNJournal/GN0202/henson2.html > > https://www.terasemjournals.org/GNJournal/GN0202/henson3.html > > https://www.terasemjournals.org/GNJournal/GN0202/henson4.html > > https://www.terasemjournals.org/GNJournal/GN0202/henson5.html > > https://www.terasemjournals.org/GNJournal/GN0202/henson6.html > > _______________________________________________ Keith > ----------------------------------- > > ________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From atymes at gmail.com Sat Mar 9 05:54:20 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 21:54:20 -0800 Subject: [ExI] interesting take on nuclear power In-Reply-To: References: <05953B2F-1B24-4AFA-86ED-CAC780E54446@gmail.com> <01c601da71d5$8f21ca20$ad655e60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 9:12?PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Respectfully, I'm curious how you have odds of even close to 50% of the > Singularity happening by 2030. What is behind this optimism? > I said over 50% against it happening by 2030, which sufficed for my point (it's unlikely to happen in the next few years, so other measures over at least the next few years to deal with scarcity are justified). A fuller truth is that my odds are well over 50% against it happening by 2030, so the odds are not close to 50% of it happening by 2030. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Sat Mar 9 07:01:10 2024 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2024 02:01:10 -0500 Subject: [ExI] interesting take on nuclear power In-Reply-To: References: <05953B2F-1B24-4AFA-86ED-CAC780E54446@gmail.com> <01c601da71d5$8f21ca20$ad655e60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Thanks for clarifying...If anyone else thinks it is that close, would still be interested in hearing the arguments for it. On Sat, Mar 9, 2024 at 12:55?AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 9:12?PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Respectfully, I'm curious how you have odds of even close to 50% of the >> Singularity happening by 2030. What is behind this optimism? >> > > I said over 50% against it happening by 2030, which sufficed for my point > (it's unlikely to happen in the next few years, so other measures over at > least the next few years to deal with scarcity are justified). A fuller > truth is that my odds are well over 50% against it happening by 2030, so > the odds are not close to 50% of it happening by 2030. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Mar 9 07:49:21 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 23:49:21 -0800 Subject: [ExI] interesting take on nuclear power In-Reply-To: References: <05953B2F-1B24-4AFA-86ED-CAC780E54446@gmail.com> <01c601da71d5$8f21ca20$ad655e60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 11:03?PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: > > Thanks for clarifying...If anyone else thinks it is that close, would still be interested in hearing the arguments for it. I admit to being lazy on this topic and follow Ray Kurzweil. Until the LLM came out, Ray was expecting the Singularity to hit in the mid-2040s. After the LLMs came out, Ray cut his estimate to 2030. Eliezer Yudkowsky has expressed that the human era is about over, perhaps 5 years. Ray and Eliezer may be wrong, but they have put far more effort into understanding the issue than I have. Keith > On Sat, Mar 9, 2024 at 12:55?AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 9:12?PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> Respectfully, I'm curious how you have odds of even close to 50% of the Singularity happening by 2030. What is behind this optimism? >> >> >> I said over 50% against it happening by 2030, which sufficed for my point (it's unlikely to happen in the next few years, so other measures over at least the next few years to deal with scarcity are justified). A fuller truth is that my odds are well over 50% against it happening by 2030, so the odds are not close to 50% of it happening by 2030. >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 9 13:09:51 2024 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2024 07:09:51 -0600 Subject: [ExI] trump In-Reply-To: <01be01da71d4$55827770$00876650$@rainier66.com> References: <01be01da71d4$55827770$00876650$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: So - what happens if states ignore the SCOTUS ruling and delete candidates? bill w On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 9:48?PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ...> On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat > Cc: Kelly Anderson > Subject: Re: [ExI] trump > > >...One strength I once attributed to Trump was that he was (and still is) > perceived as "just crazy enough"... and that would make other world leaders > think twice before doing something like, oh, I don't know, invading Ukraine > or Taiwan. However, his isolationist stance is such that such leaders might > feel even safer doing such nonsense now... As bad as Biden is, he's at > least supported Ukraine, which I view as a "good thing" due to the fact > that if Russia successfully took over Ukraine, someone in Nato might be > next, and then all hell might break loose. My vote is irrelevant now that > I'm living in a RED as RED state... but I can't imagine voting for either > of them at this point. > > -Kelly > > > > > Kelly that's the beauty of living in a state which is highly partisan, > such as we do: you are free to vote your conscience. You know for sure it > will not influence the election. So be true to yourself. > > There are more than two parties. This is one of those election years > where most of the people hate both dominant party's candidate. > > So... vote your conscience. That's what I intend to do. > > Fun aside: the US Supreme Court decided that states may not remove the > name of any qualifying party's nominee. I think this was the right > decision, but it bothers me that the US Supreme Court ordered states to do > this, for it is not clear to me from reading the constitution that the > SCOTUS has the authority to do that. Do let me stress I think it was the > right decision, as did all 9 justices in perfect unison. I am only > questioning the authority to do that right thing. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 9 13:46:50 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2024 05:46:50 -0800 Subject: [ExI] dark confession time In-Reply-To: <018501da71cd$fdb78c70$f926a550$@rainier66.com> References: <0d0601da711e$179b1d10$46d15730$@rainier66.com> <016201da71c8$34d01160$9e703420$@rainier66.com> <018501da71cd$fdb78c70$f926a550$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <010b01da7228$3d01d700$b7058500$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com >?BANG the wheel goes free, stabilized because it was spinning at 165 when it left the ground, it bounces a few times as it spins up to about 200 knots I would guess. Then? have it collide with something fun, like a row of parked cars? Such fun we could have. spike Keith, you inspired this ya know. We read of your youthful exploits, the explosive stunts and such delightful foolishness. Now we want to do likewise, even long after our youth has fled. If I can pull this off, actual literal youth will flee, wanting nothing to do with what I have in mind. Read on please. It would obviously cost a pile of money to mount an aircraft tire with exploding bolts and do all that, but it occurred to me we could make a low-cost alternative using a motorcycle front tire and rim, which I even own. Get one of the modern V-rated tires, good for 200 mph, rig it to the front of a really fast car, or even just a normal pickup with the carrier mounted to the front tow attachments. That I could build. But here?s the cool part. We rig up a compressed air system that drives a cruciform manifold with four nozzles, kinda like a Nazi sign with nozzles at the ends of the four bent things and nozzles at the ends. The compressed air is at the hub. Get kiting across the dry lake bed, open the valve on the compressed gas, get the wheel spinning, brake the truck to release the wheel which accelerates and slams into a target. We could see if a 200 mph motorcycle tire could punch thru a parked car. Or, see how fast we could get the wheel going, never mind hitting a target. See how fast it could go before the centrifugal force caused the tire to explode. Heh. Oh would could have such insane fun. If we get caught, I could blame Boeing for building planes which fall apart in flight. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Mar 9 14:20:24 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2024 14:20:24 +0000 Subject: [ExI] dark confession time In-Reply-To: <010b01da7228$3d01d700$b7058500$@rainier66.com> References: <0d0601da711e$179b1d10$46d15730$@rainier66.com> <016201da71c8$34d01160$9e703420$@rainier66.com> <018501da71cd$fdb78c70$f926a550$@rainier66.com> <010b01da7228$3d01d700$b7058500$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Mar 2024 at 13:49, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > Heh. Oh would could have such insane fun. If we get caught, I could blame Boeing for building planes which fall apart in flight. > > spike > _______________________________________________ Sorry to nitpick, but this incident wasn't Boeing's fault. Each landing leg on the 777 has six wheels and the plane can land safely with damaged or missing tires. As, in fact, it did land at LAX. The tire falling off was a maintenance issue, done by United Airlines staff. The plane was built in 2002, so has been flying OK for 22 years. It is the new planes that Boeing is having quality and design problems with. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 9 14:25:16 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2024 06:25:16 -0800 Subject: [ExI] interesting take on nuclear power In-Reply-To: References: <05953B2F-1B24-4AFA-86ED-CAC780E54446@gmail.com> <01c601da71d5$8f21ca20$ad655e60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <013001da722d$9bb9f0c0$d32dd240$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: Keith Henson >...Do you really think "the powers that be" would bother with fission in a world where they can grow PV like Kudzu? Keith Keith we need power until nanotech can grow PV like kudzu. It can't do that yet. We need the power in the meantime. spike From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 9 14:35:39 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2024 06:35:39 -0800 Subject: [ExI] trump In-Reply-To: References: <01be01da71d4$55827770$00876650$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <013501da722f$0f0276a0$2d0763e0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Saturday, 9 March, 2024 5:10 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: Re: [ExI] trump So - what happens if states ignore the SCOTUS ruling and delete candidates? bill w Good question billw. That state?s delegates might be barred from entering the electoral college. Or the EC might require the governor of that state to decide which delegates to send. In the worst case, the number of delegates from that state might be enough to decide the election, in which case we have a national election in which we don?t know who won and we have no clear legal means of deciding. This could trigger the second civil war. This would be a bad thing. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 9 14:43:29 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2024 06:43:29 -0800 Subject: [ExI] dark confession time In-Reply-To: References: <0d0601da711e$179b1d10$46d15730$@rainier66.com> <016201da71c8$34d01160$9e703420$@rainier66.com> <018501da71cd$fdb78c70$f926a550$@rainier66.com> <010b01da7228$3d01d700$b7058500$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <013e01da7230$271e3a20$755aae60$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] dark confession time On Sat, 9 Mar 2024 at 13:49, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > Heh. Oh would could have such insane fun. If we get caught, I could blame Boeing for building planes which fall apart in flight. > > spike > _______________________________________________ >...Sorry to nitpick, but this incident wasn't Boeing's fault. Each landing leg on the 777 has six wheels and the plane can land safely with damaged or missing tires. As, in fact, it did land at LAX. The tire falling off was a maintenance issue, done by United Airlines staff. The plane was built in 2002, so has been flying OK for 22 years. It is the new planes that Boeing is having quality and design problems with. BillK _______________________________________________ Good. I own one share of Boeing stock. I want to protect my "investment" which I have held in order to get the stockholder's reports. I have nothing against Boeing. I fly on their products. Maintenance: oh somebody screwed up so bad it almost suggests intentional malfeasance. I do not see how something serious enough to cause a wheel to fall off could have slipped thru so many required inspections. spike From atymes at gmail.com Sat Mar 9 15:43:51 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2024 07:43:51 -0800 Subject: [ExI] trump In-Reply-To: <013501da722f$0f0276a0$2d0763e0$@rainier66.com> References: <01be01da71d4$55827770$00876650$@rainier66.com> <013501da722f$0f0276a0$2d0763e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 9, 2024, 6:37 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > In the worst case, the number of delegates from that state might be > enough to decide the election, in which case we have a national election in > which we don?t know who won and we have no clear legal means of deciding. > This could trigger the second civil war. This would be a bad thing. > It is consistent with what they did last time, to have that happen anyway for electors from states where Trump lost, regardless of whether there were any generally recognized questions. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 9 15:56:17 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2024 07:56:17 -0800 Subject: [ExI] trump In-Reply-To: References: <01be01da71d4$55827770$00876650$@rainier66.com> <013501da722f$0f0276a0$2d0763e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <018101da723a$52e91e90$f8bb5bb0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Sent: Saturday, 9 March, 2024 7:44 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: Adrian Tymes Subject: Re: [ExI] trump On Sat, Mar 9, 2024, 6:37 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: In the worst case, the number of delegates from that state might be enough to decide the election, in which case we have a national election in which we don?t know who won and we have no clear legal means of deciding. This could trigger the second civil war. This would be a bad thing. >?It is consistent with what they did last time, to have that happen anyway for electors from states where Trump lost, regardless of whether there were any generally recognized questions. Adrian, my point is that the constitution predates printed ballots and predates political parties for the most part. It doesn?t tell us what happens if states or counties leave off one qualifying party?s candidate or the other, or both, or some of them or all of them. If a state or some counties do that, we don?t really know who won that state?s election. If several states and counties do that, we could have an election in which we really don?t know who won. The SCOTUS made a decision to avert that possibility, but it isn?t clear to me as an originalist, that the SCOTUS has the authority to make that call. Note I think it was the right call, as do all nine of the justices, but it was a functionalist decision, not an originalist decision. A strict originalist would opine (as I do) that states and counties shouldn?t be able to omit qualifying party?s candidate, but that the court doesn?t have the authority to stop that, even foreseeing the possibility of murderous chaos if states and counties start tossing candidates on the whimsical decision of unelected local and state officials. In that view, SCOTUS did the right thing without the legal authority, which is better than doing the wrong thing with legal authority. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat Mar 9 15:57:17 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2024 07:57:17 -0800 Subject: [ExI] interesting take on nuclear power In-Reply-To: References: <05953B2F-1B24-4AFA-86ED-CAC780E54446@gmail.com> <01c601da71d5$8f21ca20$ad655e60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 8, 2024, 11:51 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I admit to being lazy on this topic and follow Ray Kurzweil. Until > the LLM came out, Ray was expecting the Singularity to hit in the > mid-2040s. > > After the LLMs came out, Ray cut his estimate to 2030. Eliezer > Yudkowsky has expressed that the human era is about over, perhaps 5 > years. > > Ray and Eliezer may be wrong, but they have put far more effort into > understanding the issue than I have. > Eliezer is wrong. Ray's new prediction is probably wrong. I don't have good enough data to predict beyond 2040 at this time. I say this despite having designs for full self-replicating 3D printers that could extend into make-near-anything machines without needing to wait for further development of molecular nanotech, with obvious (most likely beneficial in practice, given the details) implications should a Singularity-grade seed AI get control, and a possible way to set up prototypes. (If anyone would be interested in helping do the work to bring these printers about, contact me offlist.) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat Mar 9 16:12:09 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2024 08:12:09 -0800 Subject: [ExI] trump In-Reply-To: <018101da723a$52e91e90$f8bb5bb0$@rainier66.com> References: <01be01da71d4$55827770$00876650$@rainier66.com> <013501da722f$0f0276a0$2d0763e0$@rainier66.com> <018101da723a$52e91e90$f8bb5bb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 9, 2024, 7:56 AM wrote: > Adrian, my point is that the constitution predates printed ballots and > predates political parties for the most part. It doesn?t tell us what > happens if states or counties leave off one qualifying party?s candidate or > the other, or both, or some of them or all of them. If a state or some > counties do that, we don?t really know who won that state?s election. If > several states and counties do that, we could have an election in which we > really don?t know who won. > No, it's pretty clear. A given state doesn't have to have a presidential election at all: it would be legal, if the state passed laws to this effect, for the governor or legislature to just say who that state's electors go to with no input from the rest of the state. Certain states such as Arizona have threatened to do just that. It is the case that, currently, no state's laws allow that, and all states' laws require that all qualifying candidates appear on the ballot. If Arizona's legislature pulled that after the election with Arizona's laws as they are now, they could be prosecuted under Arizona's laws, quite probably resulting in the elected result winning out. This just requires some foresight by the relevant legislature and governor, though to a degree that the parties threatening to do this have generally not demonstrated yet. (There are published plans for this sort of thing, but notice that despite those plans existing, no state presently actually has those laws at this time. If they had the necessary foresight, they'd be passing those laws now.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From postmowoods at gmail.com Sat Mar 9 16:52:12 2024 From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2024 09:52:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] trump In-Reply-To: References: <01be01da71d4$55827770$00876650$@rainier66.com> <013501da722f$0f0276a0$2d0763e0$@rainier66.com> <018101da723a$52e91e90$f8bb5bb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: That's very interesting. I know most of us here are old enough to remember the debacle of Bush v. Gore where the Supreme Court picked the president. So while the Supreme Court might not have the right to do certain things, they have done them before, and who's to say that they are wrong? The Constitution definitely gives them some rights, and if you'll recall: "Marbury v. Madison is a landmark Supreme Court case in United States law with significant implications for the balance of power between the branches of government. In 1803, the Supreme Court ruled that it had the power of judicial review, meaning it could declare acts of Congress unconstitutional. This decision established the principle of judicial review in the United States, empowering the judiciary as a check on the legislative and executive branches. It solidified the role of the Supreme Court as the final interpreter of the Constitution, shaping the system of checks and balances within the government. This case is often cited as a cornerstone of American constitutional law and has had a profound impact on the development of the U.S. legal system." Or so says ChatGPT, which is correct in this case. That was one of the greatest power grabs in the history of these United States, and it was a big oversight of the writers of the Constitution not to give SCOTUS this right out of the gate. -Kelly On Sat, Mar 9, 2024 at 9:12?AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Sat, Mar 9, 2024, 7:56 AM wrote: >> >> Adrian, my point is that the constitution predates printed ballots and predates political parties for the most part. It doesn?t tell us what happens if states or counties leave off one qualifying party?s candidate or the other, or both, or some of them or all of them. If a state or some counties do that, we don?t really know who won that state?s election. If several states and counties do that, we could have an election in which we really don?t know who won. > > No, it's pretty clear. A given state doesn't have to have a presidential election at all: it would be legal, if the state passed laws to this effect, for the governor or legislature to just say who that state's electors go to with no input from the rest of the state. Certain states such as Arizona have threatened to do just that. > > It is the case that, currently, no state's laws allow that, and all states' laws require that all qualifying candidates appear on the ballot. If Arizona's legislature pulled that after the election with Arizona's laws as they are now, they could be prosecuted under Arizona's laws, quite probably resulting in the elected result winning out. This just requires some foresight by the relevant legislature and governor, though to a degree that the parties threatening to do this have generally not demonstrated yet. (There are published plans for this sort of thing, but notice that despite those plans existing, no state presently actually has those laws at this time. If they had the necessary foresight, they'd be passing those laws now.) > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 9 18:51:08 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2024 10:51:08 -0800 Subject: [ExI] trump In-Reply-To: References: <01be01da71d4$55827770$00876650$@rainier66.com> <013501da722f$0f0276a0$2d0763e0$@rainier66.com> <018101da723a$52e91e90$f8bb5bb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001901da7252$c003a500$400aef00$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat Cc: Kelly Anderson Subject: Re: [ExI] trump >...I know most of us here are old enough to remember the debacle of Bush v. Gore where the Supreme Court picked the president... Kelly Hi Kelly, I know it was advertised that way, but as one who had (play) money riding on the outcome of the 2000 election, I followed it very closely, so I can offer a counter-narrative without looking up anything. Aside: I was playing Robin Hanson's Ideas Futures at the time and really kicking butt. It was such a fun game. It occurred to me that if one could see the early results from the very high population state of Florida, one could predict the outcome of that state when the polls closed, enough ahead of time that one could make informed bets on Ideas Futures and win a ton of "money." Back in the day, we took our play money a lot more seriously than we do our real money now. (Aside)^2: In Michael Lewis' book Going Infinite, about Sam Bankman-Fried, on page 68 and the following several pages, Sam relates having figured out the real-money version of that same game I was playing in IdeasFutures and later in PredictIt. Since Sam played games with real money (other people's money of course) he figured out that one could see the first results coming in from Florida, compare to historic early results, figure out which way Florida was going, then bet accordingly. They did this successfully: in 2016 they watched the early results thanks to voting machines, and speculated that Trump would win Florida which indicated which way the other big swinging dicks would go. The big difference between me and Sam was 8 orders of magnitude in the size of the bets. Well, that and the hair. The polls showed Clinton way ahead going in, but before lunch on election day in 2016, Bankman Fried's group speculated that Trump would win, even though he was behind at the time. He wasn't behind by enough. Bankman-Fried at Jane Street Capitol, bet heavily against the stock market, judging that a Trump win would tank the market. He was right and he was right. Trump pulled off a surprise victory and the market tanked. Jane Street Cap made 3 billion dollars that day. But this was a case where two rights do make a wrong: Jane Street Cap was still holding those counter-markets and shorts the next day, when an unexpected thing happened: the market rallied and went higher than it was Tuesday morning. Jane Street's 3 billion dollar profit went up in a puff of smoke, and turned into a 300 million dollar loss by Wednesday afternoon, which they had to cover (that's a well-known risk of betting on shorts.) It went from the best day ever on Jane Street to the biggest single-day loss ever for Jane Street Cap. The wonder-child Sam Bankman-Fried went from hero to zero in one day. From GOAT to goat, one day. Ahhhh shit. Oh that musta hurt. Bankman Fried and the other traders in his group were uniformly Clinton supporters. So they lost both the election and 300 million bucks. Owwwww... Back to Kelly: the Supreme Court did not pick the president in 2000 (for the Supreme Court correctly ruled that it had no authority to do that.) The court correctly ruled that the final call on that election went to the governor of Florida, which by a stunning coincidence was the brother of one of the candidates. The governor said he would go by the numerical result of the voters (hell what else could he do?) which showed his own brother had won Florida by about 500 votes, out of well over 5 million, less than one part in 10,000 margin. Clearly it was well within the margin of error, and it tipped the national election. OK then. I could not tell the difference between the candidates that time: they both looked like over-spenders, which makes them identical twins by my way of looking at things. But I had real play money riding on that election in Ideas Futures. I had bet on Bush using the simple rule that still works to this day: bet to the right of the crowd politically. Put your own preferences aside. Vote your values, bet your beliefs. People generally under-account for their own confirmation bias, with the political betting crowd being poster-child examples of that. The political betting crowd leans to the left of center. They are doing it even more now than they did then. Lesson: if you play political betting, bet to the right of the crowd. I made 73 real-world bucks in 2016 doing that. Here's a good neutral site for those willing to play the game: https://www.realclearpolitics.com/elections/betting-odds/2024/president/ No charge for that advice Kelly, my pleasure sir. spike From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Mar 9 22:10:19 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2024 14:10:19 -0800 Subject: [ExI] uploads etc. In-Reply-To: References: <0d0601da711e$179b1d10$46d15730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: > (I will post the rest over the next day or so or you can just go read > it. I hope you have better comprehension than the chat bots.) page 2 of 6 As soon as the seed had enough water for cooling, it started venting a little steam and "growing" (assembling) a stalk. The stalk came out of the hole where the water had been poured and shot up two meters in minutes. Diamond tipped roots augured into the ground anchoring the seed so a gust of wind would not tip it over. The stalk, which started a featureless tan, turned black at the top, and then the blackness flowed half way down the stalk. It elaborately flowed and folded, developing shifting swirls of colors like the skin of an indigo snake. Then the opalescent black surface lifted away from the stalk like an opening umbrella. It flattened out, the stalk bent like a sunflower, and the solar absorbers faced the morning sun. At this point it looked like a black beach umbrella growing out of a packing crate. The seed now had 2 kW of power available and "woke up." It exchanged information with Lothar's and Mabo's neural interfaces verifying that it had passed diagnostics tests and that it was a happy clinic seed. Lothar and Mabo took leave of the tata after reassuring the elders that their seed would finish growing up in a week and open. If the seed needed help its spirit would call to them and they would come back. And finally, when it opened they should hang another fetish on the hook it would grow over the door and send in the sickest first. As they were driving away on the seldom-traveled track, Mabo broke out laughing. "Those hicks were sure they took advantage of you." "They did! You got to sleep in the Rover. Next time's your turn. You get 'de lice and I tote 'de gun." Lothar joked back. Lothar's hair slowly turned black while Mabo's became a cap of kinky white curls as they swapped roles. "This one was easy even with banging my head on the steering wheel when the leopard pissed on the tyre." Mabo rubbed his head. "I sure hope we don't get another where some kid has a laptop, a satellite link and starts telling the elders what 'clinic seeds' do. That one was awful." Lothar made this comment over the grinding noise of the Land Rover climbing a low place in the bank of the wadi. Far to the north and a dozen seed plantings ago, village elders had figured they were in over their heads with this "clinic seed" offer.' They assigned a computer savvy 10 year-old to discuss with Lothar and Mabo just what this "clinic seed" did. Lothar and Mabo eventually planted a seed in that village but only after setting up more bandwidth for the kid to investigate and spending several days going through some of the details of the clinic project with him and the elders. The elders, understanding to some extent what they were getting, had insisted on paying with a beautiful piece of museum quality artwork, the most valuable possession the village had. But it put the team behind schedule. (In fact, the kid understood far more about clinic seeds than Lothar and Mabo realized but did not share all he figured out with either them or the elders.) Mabo nodded and checked the GPS. They were off to pick up another seed from a helicopter drop and deliver it to the next tata down the valley. They and thousands of other teams were moving in a wave down Africa leaving no village behind without a clinic seed. It would take them another year to finish. For the next two hours the seed concentrated on its "root system," pushing out self-assembling pipes and sniffing for water. It was equipped to go down and out for hundreds of meters. It hit water it could pump at 9:30. The seed pushed up its solar stalk and enlarged the collector first to 4 meters and then to 6. By noon it had 40 kW of power available. It was venting steam like a teakettle to get rid of the waste heat from its furious assembly projects. One of these was a mesh microwave dish on top of the solar absorber. (The dish weighed less than a silk handkerchief.) As soon as the seed finished the dish (after consulting its clock, its GPS location and the place of the sun), it aligned the dish on the African net communication transponder attached to the geosynchronous ring and asked for a permanently assigned address on the net. Up to that point the clinic seed was a generic product. The address it was assigned was just a string of hexadecimal numbers but it was a unique number! The clinic's personality was human in that it could feel happy, even smug, about acquiring its very own unique identification. The clinic had other carefully selected human personality characteristics such as seeking the good opinion of its peers (humans and other of its kind alike). It also had a few unhuman limits. Since humans have a hard time relating to groups of hexadecimal numbers, the seed also picked a name for itself. It knew from Lothar and Mabo it had been exchanged for a monkey skull. Susan had been the name of the leader of its psychological integration group . . . . insert one in the other, drop a few letters, and test to see if the name was in use . . . Suskulan. Suskulan had a choice of gender as well, male, female or neutral. Depending on the culture, clinics were better accepted in some places as male, some as female, and some neutral. The database for the Tamberma indicated it would be better accepted presenting itself as an old male spirit. Consulting his clock and date on his last system build, the Suskulan sent a message to "home" far around the world and registered himself for updates. Home told him that he was current, but to expect a minor update in a few weeks. Half the power from the solar stalk was being used by a fuel cell running in reverse to make hydrogen and oxygen out of water. The gases were stored underground in flat bladders that used the weight of 30 meters of earth to keep them under pressure. If he watched his power budget, Suskulan would never have to aestivate again. Before Suskulan decided where to put its underground extensions, he moved a few of his eyes far up the stalk and looked over the tata and the surrounding area. Suskulan decided to put most of his mature underground volume under the tata, being careful to lift the entire area uniformly. It would improve the drainage in the wet season. Suskulan had full capacity to make anything he needed and even to replicate, but the process was slow. If the seed had been a few grams rather then 240 kilos of tightly packed nanomachines [1] directed by an almost fully formed "spirit" it would have taken months to get to the stage he reached by sundown. As the sun went below the low hills and the wall of the wadi, Suskulan furled his huge solar collector surface against the stalk. Night was a time of reduced fabrication. Suskulan knew from satellite weather images the next day would be clear so he ran through a lot of his stored energy that night pushing an access grid deep under the tata. Over the next five days the tata was raised a meter. The rate was limited by the amount of CO2 entering the stoma on the bottom of the solar collector. The carbon dioxide was reduced to elemental carbon and formed into diamond sheets. Water was pumped in at high pressure to lift the ground. The outer surface of the diamond rippled to move rock and dirt from the center toward the edges. Then arches and beams grew in the water to hold up the roof. Finally most of the water was put back in the aquifer, leaving 10,000 cubic meters of space. Suskulan's central computational nodes went down the elevator that was part of the construction project. On the surface the stalk had expanded and overgrown the "packing crate" till the bottom 3 meters was the size of one of the round houses in the tata. Even though it didn't have an entry, there was an outline of one in the traditional keyhole shape on the side facing the tata. Suskulan considered taking down the wall, but the villagers did that and incorporated the strange house into the perimeter of the tata. The appearance of a water tap next to the door outline was an inducement, though not a life and death matter here where the tata had a nearby spring. A week to the hour after he had been planted, Suskulan dissolved the membrane on the door. The tata elders had heard more reports from the north and knew what to expect. They hung a fetish over the door and pronounced the clinic open. Inside the round room there seemed to be a rug on the floor, the walls appeared to be plastered and there was a low table in the middle of the room. There were medical devices in a cabinet but they were just props. Suskulan had built up stocks of replacement chemicals in his medical stores, mostly fat synthesized from methyl alcohol and amino acids to build proteins. > Keith > > > > https://www.terasemjournals.org/GNJournal/GN0202/henson2.html > > > https://www.terasemjournals.org/GNJournal/GN0202/henson3.html > > > https://www.terasemjournals.org/GNJournal/GN0202/henson4.html > > > https://www.terasemjournals.org/GNJournal/GN0202/henson5.html > > > https://www.terasemjournals.org/GNJournal/GN0202/henson6.html > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Keith > > ----------------------------------- > > > > ________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun Mar 10 02:18:59 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2024 18:18:59 -0800 Subject: [ExI] dark confession time In-Reply-To: <010b01da7228$3d01d700$b7058500$@rainier66.com> References: <0d0601da711e$179b1d10$46d15730$@rainier66.com> <016201da71c8$34d01160$9e703420$@rainier66.com> <018501da71cd$fdb78c70$f926a550$@rainier66.com> <010b01da7228$3d01d700$b7058500$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: This is well beyond what I could do in my decrepitude. It's a Mythbusters episode, but unfortunately, that show has ended. The last adventure of this sort I did was in 1985, just before I moved to the Bay Area/ We poured 200 pounds of propane down a mine shaft and dropped in a flare. Keith On Sat, Mar 9, 2024 at 5:48?AM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > > > From: spike at rainier66.com > > >?BANG the wheel goes free, stabilized because it was spinning at 165 when it left the ground, it bounces a few times as it spins up to about 200 knots I would guess. Then? have it collide with something fun, like a row of parked cars? > > Such fun we could have. > > > > spike > > > > > > Keith, you inspired this ya know. We read of your youthful exploits, the explosive stunts and such delightful foolishness. Now we want to do likewise, even long after our youth has fled. If I can pull this off, actual literal youth will flee, wanting nothing to do with what I have in mind. Read on please. > > > > It would obviously cost a pile of money to mount an aircraft tire with exploding bolts and do all that, but it occurred to me we could make a low-cost alternative using a motorcycle front tire and rim, which I even own. Get one of the modern V-rated tires, good for 200 mph, rig it to the front of a really fast car, or even just a normal pickup with the carrier mounted to the front tow attachments. That I could build. > > > > But here?s the cool part. We rig up a compressed air system that drives a cruciform manifold with four nozzles, kinda like a Nazi sign with nozzles at the ends of the four bent things and nozzles at the ends. The compressed air is at the hub. Get kiting across the dry lake bed, open the valve on the compressed gas, get the wheel spinning, brake the truck to release the wheel which accelerates and slams into a target. We could see if a 200 mph motorcycle tire could punch thru a parked car. Or, see how fast we could get the wheel going, never mind hitting a target. See how fast it could go before the centrifugal force caused the tire to explode. > > > > Heh. Oh would could have such insane fun. If we get caught, I could blame Boeing for building planes which fall apart in flight. > > > > spike > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 10 03:02:41 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2024 19:02:41 -0800 Subject: [ExI] dark confession time In-Reply-To: References: <0d0601da711e$179b1d10$46d15730$@rainier66.com> <016201da71c8$34d01160$9e703420$@rainier66.com> <018501da71cd$fdb78c70$f926a550$@rainier66.com> <010b01da7228$3d01d700$b7058500$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002001da7297$6b5dd2b0$42197810$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: Keith Henson Sent: Saturday, 9 March, 2024 6:19 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: spike at rainier66.com Subject: Re: [ExI] dark confession time This is well beyond what I could do in my decrepitude. It's a Mythbusters episode, but unfortunately, that show has ended. The last adventure of this sort I did was in 1985, just before I moved to the Bay Area/ We poured 200 pounds of propane down a mine shaft and dropped in a flare. Keith Keith I heard of the propane incident. It is compelling. I haven't done the calculations, but it kinda feels like by the time the flame started, the reaction would be fuel rich. But I don't know. It would be cool to work with it, see if we could find a way to mix the fuel and air close to the stoichiometric ratio before igniting, but I don't know how to do that. spike From pharos at gmail.com Sun Mar 10 10:18:05 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2024 10:18:05 +0000 Subject: [ExI] dark confession time In-Reply-To: <002001da7297$6b5dd2b0$42197810$@rainier66.com> References: <0d0601da711e$179b1d10$46d15730$@rainier66.com> <016201da71c8$34d01160$9e703420$@rainier66.com> <018501da71cd$fdb78c70$f926a550$@rainier66.com> <010b01da7228$3d01d700$b7058500$@rainier66.com> <002001da7297$6b5dd2b0$42197810$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Mar 2024 at 03:05, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: Keith Henson > Sent: Saturday, 9 March, 2024 6:19 PM > To: ExI chat list > Cc: spike at rainier66.com > Subject: Re: [ExI] dark confession time > > This is well beyond what I could do in my decrepitude. > > It's a Mythbusters episode, but unfortunately, that show has ended. > > The last adventure of this sort I did was in 1985, just before I moved > to the Bay Area/ We poured 200 pounds of propane down a mine shaft > and dropped in a flare. > > Keith > > > Keith I heard of the propane incident. It is compelling. I haven't done the calculations, but it kinda feels like by the time the flame started, the reaction would be fuel rich. But I don't know. It would be cool to work with it, see if we could find a way to mix the fuel and air close to the stoichiometric ratio before igniting, but I don't know how to do that. > > spike > _______________________________________________ I hope you are not planning to do this in an abandoned coal mine! Underground coal fires are burning all around the world as they are almost impossible to extinguish. Quote: The World's Oldest Underground Fire Has Been Burning For 6,000 Years ------------------------ BillK From pharos at gmail.com Sun Mar 10 11:39:23 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2024 11:39:23 +0000 Subject: [ExI] interesting take on nuclear power In-Reply-To: References: <05953B2F-1B24-4AFA-86ED-CAC780E54446@gmail.com> <01c601da71d5$8f21ca20$ad655e60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Mar 2024 at 07:04, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: > Thanks for clarifying...If anyone else thinks it is that close, would still be interested in hearing the arguments for it. > _______________________________________________ Quote: In a previously unreported quote, Sam Altman says that AI will do "95% of what marketers use agencies, strategists, and creative professionals for today." And, he says AGI will be a reality in "5 years, give or take, maybe slightly longer." These comments come from a new book called Our AI Journey?and appear to be completely unreported in mainstream media. The book features in-depth interviews with top AI leaders, including Altman, from two business innovators named Adam Brotman and Andy Sack. ----------- This is not 'fluff' from AI enthusiasts. This is serious business with real money decisions involved. BillK From pharos at gmail.com Sun Mar 10 12:18:03 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2024 12:18:03 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Fortified homes and bomb shelters Message-ID: >From luxury bunkers to tactical vehicles, the ultra-rich are preparing for the Big One Builders of fortified homes say inquiries and applications are up in recent years Andre Mayer ? CBC News ? Posted: Mar 09, 2024 Quotes: In December, Wired magazine revealed that Mark Zuckerberg, CEO of Meta and one of the richest individuals on the planet, was building a $100-million US compound in Hawaii. The fact that Zuckerberg is undertaking a nine-figure renovation is hardly revelatory. The more telling detail is that the compound includes a bunker ? 5,000 square feet, to be specific, with concrete walls and an escape hatch. What does this tell us? It's a sign that at least some of the ultra-rich are anxious about global events and are making contingency plans for the Big One ? whatever form that may take. The feeling is very much in the air. Architectural Digest named "luxury bunkers" one of the real estate trends of 2023, and a finely appointed redoubt figured prominently in the recent Netflix thriller Leave the World Behind. -------------- So 'Preppers' are now spreading to the ultra-rich. They had better get AI servant robots soon if all the other people are not likely to survive. How will the rich survive without a servant population? BillK From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 10 13:36:03 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2024 06:36:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Fortified homes and bomb shelters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003f01da72ef$e62fe660$b28fb320$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat ... -------------- So 'Preppers' are now spreading to the ultra-rich. They had better get AI servant robots soon if all the other people are not likely to survive. How will the rich survive without a servant population? BillK _______________________________________________ Given enough money, they could store supplies sufficient to carry them several years. But eventually they would need to resort to traditional agriculture. BillK, note that our doomsday scenarios don't actually kill all of humanity, it just decimates technologically advanced humanity (from starvation which resulted from population densities way beyond environmental carrying capacity enabled by transportation of food.) It leaves the rest to diminish and decline into savagery. Under those circumstances, the technology is also self-defeating. In some places on the planet slow to adopt technology, life mostly goes on as before, for the most part. Humanity will survive a singularity in my thinking. It will reset everything, but humanity will be again ready to radiate out of sub Saharan Africa and do it all again. spike From pharos at gmail.com Sun Mar 10 14:59:07 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2024 14:59:07 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Claude AI Prompt library & Philosophy Test Message-ID: Claude AI has a Prompt library that enables Claude to assume personalities and tackle many tasks, both for Work and Play. The way it works is - First, give Claude the prompt for the task you want help with. Claude will process the prompt, then ask you for the details of the task. I tested the prompt for Claude to discuss Philosophy and resubmitted my test query. Question - It seems strange that at some time I will die and the world will continue without me - please discuss Claude3 Philosophical answer - The concept you've brought up touches on some profound philosophical questions about the nature of personal identity, the meaning of life, and our place in the universe. Let's explore this further. The idea that the world will continue on after our individual deaths can indeed seem strange and unsettling. It highlights the impermanence and fragility of our existence. We are each the center of our own subjective universe, and it's natural to feel like the world revolves around us to some degree. The fact that the universe will keep going without us after we die is a stark reminder of our own mortality and relatively small place in the grand scheme of things. Some argue that this realization should motivate us to live life more fully and make the most of the limited time we have. If we will all inevitably die and the world will go on without us, then perhaps the meaning we find in life comes from the experiences we have, the connections we make, and the impact we have on others while we are alive. This view suggests that we should focus on being present, following our passions, and living according to our values to infuse our finite existence with as much purpose and fulfillment as possible. Others contend that the fact that we will die and be forgotten is evidence that life is ultimately meaningless and absurd. If nothing we do will matter in the very long run, and we are all destined to perish and fade into oblivion, then perhaps there is no true purpose or significance to our individual lives. We are just a blip in the cosmic timeline. This more nihilistic and existential perspective grapples with the potential emptiness and futility of human existence. Regardless of how one views it, contemplating our own mortality and the world continuing without us raises important questions: - How do we create meaning and purpose in our lives given the inevitability of death? - What, if anything, is the significance of our individual existence in the context of a vast, ever-evolving universe? - How should the realization of our mortality inform how we live and the choices we make? - Is there something greater than our individual selves that we are a part of, or is this earthly life all there is? These are age-old questions that have inspired much philosophical and religious thought across human history. There may be no definitive answers, but grappling with them seems to be an inherent part of the human experience. Ultimately, the strangeness of knowing we will one day die invites us to reflect deeply on what it means to be alive and what we do with the precious time we have. -------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Mar 10 15:21:35 2024 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2024 10:21:35 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Claude AI Prompt library & Philosophy Test In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What's the best AI out there to use on a daily basis? bill w On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 10:01?AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Claude AI has a Prompt library that enables Claude to assume personalities > and tackle many tasks, both for Work and Play. > > > > The way it works is - > First, give Claude the prompt for the task you want help with. > Claude will process the prompt, then ask you for the details of the task. > > I tested the prompt for Claude to discuss Philosophy and resubmitted my > test query. > > Question - > It seems strange that at some time I will die and the world will continue > without me - please discuss > > Claude3 Philosophical answer - > The concept you've brought up touches on some profound philosophical > questions about the nature of personal identity, the meaning of life, and > our place in the universe. Let's explore this further. > > The idea that the world will continue on after our individual deaths can > indeed seem strange and unsettling. It highlights the impermanence and > fragility of our existence. We are each the center of our own subjective > universe, and it's natural to feel like the world revolves around us to > some degree. The fact that the universe will keep going without us after we > die is a stark reminder of our own mortality and relatively small place in > the grand scheme of things. > > Some argue that this realization should motivate us to live life more > fully and make the most of the limited time we have. If we will all > inevitably die and the world will go on without us, then perhaps the > meaning we find in life comes from the experiences we have, the connections > we make, and the impact we have on others while we are alive. This view > suggests that we should focus on being present, following our passions, and > living according to our values to infuse our finite existence with as much > purpose and fulfillment as possible. > > Others contend that the fact that we will die and be forgotten is evidence > that life is ultimately meaningless and absurd. If nothing we do will > matter in the very long run, and we are all destined to perish and fade > into oblivion, then perhaps there is no true purpose or significance to our > individual lives. We are just a blip in the cosmic timeline. This more > nihilistic and existential perspective grapples with the potential > emptiness and futility of human existence. > > Regardless of how one views it, contemplating our own mortality and the > world continuing without us raises important questions: > - How do we create meaning and purpose in our lives given the > inevitability of death? > - What, if anything, is the significance of our individual existence in > the context of a vast, ever-evolving universe? > - How should the realization of our mortality inform how we live and the > choices we make? > - Is there something greater than our individual selves that we are a part > of, or is this earthly life all there is? > > These are age-old questions that have inspired much philosophical and > religious thought across human history. There may be no definitive answers, > but grappling with them seems to be an inherent part of the human > experience. Ultimately, the strangeness of knowing we will one day die > invites us to reflect deeply on what it means to be alive and what we do > with the precious time we have. > -------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Mar 10 15:45:48 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2024 15:45:48 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Claude AI Prompt library & Philosophy Test In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Mar 2024 at 15:24, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > What's the best AI out there to use on a daily basis? bill w > _______________________________________________ Heh! :) You mean, what's best this week? :) New versions are appearing quickly these days. It also depends on what you want to use it for. Some are better at computer coding, some are better at discussing personal problems, some have web access, etc. Most also have paid-for versions with extra features. The free versions of Claude and GPT-4, Inflection?s Pi, Gemini, and Mistral are worth trying. GPT-4 is expected to soon be upgraded to GPT-5. There are many more around, of course. AI is infecting everything. :) BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Mar 10 16:12:04 2024 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2024 11:12:04 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Claude AI Prompt library & Philosophy Test In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks! bill k - bill w On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 10:48?AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, 10 Mar 2024 at 15:24, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > What's the best AI out there to use on a daily basis? bill w > > _______________________________________________ > > > Heh! :) You mean, what's best this week? :) > > New versions are appearing quickly these days. > It also depends on what you want to use it for. > Some are better at computer coding, some are better at discussing > personal problems, some have web access, etc. > > Most also have paid-for versions with extra features. > > The free versions of Claude and GPT-4, Inflection?s Pi, Gemini, and > Mistral are worth trying. > GPT-4 is expected to soon be upgraded to GPT-5. > > There are many more around, of course. AI is infecting everything. :) > > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Mar 10 16:26:09 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2024 09:26:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] interesting take on nuclear power In-Reply-To: References: <05953B2F-1B24-4AFA-86ED-CAC780E54446@gmail.com> <01c601da71d5$8f21ca20$ad655e60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 10, 2024, 4:41 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sat, 9 Mar 2024 at 07:04, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > wrote: > > Thanks for clarifying...If anyone else thinks it is that close, would > still be interested in hearing the arguments for it. > > > Quote: > In a previously unreported quote, Sam Altman says that AI will do "95% > of what marketers use agencies, strategists, and creative > professionals for today." > And, he says AGI will be a reality in "5 years, give or take, maybe > slightly longer." > > These comments come from a new book called Our AI Journey?and appear > to be completely unreported in mainstream media. > The book features in-depth interviews with top AI leaders, including > Altman, from two business innovators named Adam Brotman and Andy Sack. > > > ----------- > > This is not 'fluff' from AI enthusiasts. > This is serious business with real money decisions involved. > That's well short of the Singularity. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Mar 10 16:53:50 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2024 16:53:50 +0000 Subject: [ExI] interesting take on nuclear power In-Reply-To: References: <05953B2F-1B24-4AFA-86ED-CAC780E54446@gmail.com> <01c601da71d5$8f21ca20$ad655e60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Mar 2024 at 16:28, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Sun, Mar 10, 2024, 4:41 AM BillK via extropy-chat wrote: >> Quote: >> In a previously unreported quote, Sam Altman says that AI will do "95% >> of what marketers use agencies, strategists, and creative >> professionals for today." >> And, he says AGI will be a reality in "5 years, give or take, maybe >> slightly longer." >> > > > That's well short of the Singularity. > _______________________________________________ Opinions vary on the timing of the arrival of the Singularity. If AGI achieves the ability to recursively improve itself, then an intelligence explosion could take place at exponential rates. It would only be a relatively short time, possibly only a few years, before the Singularity upheaval. BillK From atymes at gmail.com Sun Mar 10 17:53:01 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2024 10:53:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] interesting take on nuclear power In-Reply-To: References: <05953B2F-1B24-4AFA-86ED-CAC780E54446@gmail.com> <01c601da71d5$8f21ca20$ad655e60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 9:56?AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, 10 Mar 2024 at 16:28, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > On Sun, Mar 10, 2024, 4:41 AM BillK via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Quote: > >> In a previously unreported quote, Sam Altman says that AI will do "95% > >> of what marketers use agencies, strategists, and creative > >> professionals for today." > >> And, he says AGI will be a reality in "5 years, give or take, maybe > >> slightly longer." > >> > > > > > That's well short of the Singularity. > > _______________________________________________ > > > Opinions vary on the timing of the arrival of the Singularity. > If AGI achieves the ability to recursively improve itself, then an > intelligence explosion could take place at exponential rates. It would > only be a relatively short time, possibly only a few years, before the > Singularity upheaval. > My point is, replacing 95% of marketers is a far cry from recursive self-improvement. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 10 18:01:57 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2024 11:01:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] interesting take on nuclear power In-Reply-To: References: <05953B2F-1B24-4AFA-86ED-CAC780E54446@gmail.com> <01c601da71d5$8f21ca20$ad655e60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005801da7315$0b459d30$21d0d790$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] interesting take on nuclear power On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 9:56?AM BillK via extropy-chat > wrote: >?My point is, replacing 95% of marketers is a far cry from recursive self-improvement? Adrian Adrian, it wasn?t where you were going with the comment, but it gave me an idea anyway. The marketing industry is huge and attracts real talent to work in it, lotsa money, lotsa human ability invested in marketing. It functions to get us to do things, buy things, etc, but much of the industry is working against itself: marketing products competing for each other for instance. But what if? a marketing group all worked together, coming at a promotion from different angles but all trying to get humanity to buy something or buy into an idea or do a task. OK now imagine AI being able to do marketing, and of course AI is practically free compared to humans. So now imagine AI-driven marketing compelling humans to work on AI, specifically self-improving AI. By my reasoning, that step would logically predate the singularity. So when you start seeing advertisement compelling you to work on recursively improving AI, then it is clearly time to kiss your ass goodbye. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Mar 10 18:02:31 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2024 11:02:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] dark confession time In-Reply-To: References: <0d0601da711e$179b1d10$46d15730$@rainier66.com> <016201da71c8$34d01160$9e703420$@rainier66.com> <018501da71cd$fdb78c70$f926a550$@rainier66.com> <010b01da7228$3d01d700$b7058500$@rainier66.com> <002001da7297$6b5dd2b0$42197810$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 3:20?AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Underground coal fires are burning all around the world as they are > almost impossible to extinguish. > > < > https://gizmodo.com/the-worlds-oldest-underground-fire-has-been-burning-fo-1539049759 > > > Quote: > The World's Oldest Underground Fire Has Been Burning For 6,000 Years > To which https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFTLKWw542g&pp=ygUYd2UgZGlkbid0IHN0YXJ0IHRoZSBmaXJl applies to Spike's situation. At least, I don't think he started a fire 6,000 years ago. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Mar 10 18:06:33 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2024 11:06:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] interesting take on nuclear power In-Reply-To: <005801da7315$0b459d30$21d0d790$@rainier66.com> References: <05953B2F-1B24-4AFA-86ED-CAC780E54446@gmail.com> <01c601da71d5$8f21ca20$ad655e60$@rainier66.com> <005801da7315$0b459d30$21d0d790$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 11:02?AM wrote: > But what if? a marketing group all worked together, coming at a promotion > from different angles but all trying to get humanity to buy something or > buy into an idea or do a task. > > > > OK now imagine AI being able to do marketing, and of course AI is > practically free compared to humans. > > > > So now imagine AI-driven marketing compelling humans to work on AI, > specifically self-improving AI. > > > > By my reasoning, that step would logically predate the singularity. So > when you start seeing advertisement compelling you to work on recursively > improving AI, then it is clearly time to kiss your ass goodbye. > It might help the Singularity come about, but it seems an unlikely path. Those who are able to meaningfully contribute to self-improving AI, are generally recruited by means other than a singular, unified, AI-driven marketing conspiracy. As the present means already suffice, spending significant resources to set up what you describe seems unnecessary. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun Mar 10 18:06:54 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2024 11:06:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] dark confession time In-Reply-To: <002001da7297$6b5dd2b0$42197810$@rainier66.com> References: <0d0601da711e$179b1d10$46d15730$@rainier66.com> <016201da71c8$34d01160$9e703420$@rainier66.com> <018501da71cd$fdb78c70$f926a550$@rainier66.com> <010b01da7228$3d01d700$b7058500$@rainier66.com> <002001da7297$6b5dd2b0$42197810$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 9, 2024 at 7:02?PM wrote: snip > Keith I heard of the propane incident. It is compelling. I haven't done the calculations, but it kinda feels like by the time the flame started, the reaction would be fuel rich. For a typical mine shaft, around 200 feet is enough air. I worked this out, but it's been a long time and my memory may not be accurate. The shaft we used was 800 feet to water and I have no idea of how many side drifts. > But I don't know. It would be cool to work with it, see if we could find a way to mix the fuel and air close to the stoichiometric ratio before igniting, but I don't know how to do that. Propane is much heavier than air, so it would fall and mix. Keith > spike > From pharos at gmail.com Sun Mar 10 18:08:25 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2024 18:08:25 +0000 Subject: [ExI] interesting take on nuclear power In-Reply-To: References: <05953B2F-1B24-4AFA-86ED-CAC780E54446@gmail.com> <01c601da71d5$8f21ca20$ad655e60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Mar 2024 at 17:55, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 9:56?AM BillK via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> On Sun, 10 Mar 2024 at 16:28, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat >> wrote: >> > >> > On Sun, Mar 10, 2024, 4:41 AM BillK via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> Quote: >> >> In a previously unreported quote, Sam Altman says that AI will do "95% >> >> of what marketers use agencies, strategists, and creative >> >> professionals for today." >> >> And, he says AGI will be a reality in "5 years, give or take, maybe >> >> slightly longer." >> >> >> >> > >> > That's well short of the Singularity. >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> >> Opinions vary on the timing of the arrival of the Singularity. >> If AGI achieves the ability to recursively improve itself, then an >> intelligence explosion could take place at exponential rates. It would >> only be a relatively short time, possibly only a few years, before the >> Singularity upheaval. > > > My point is, replacing 95% of marketers is a far cry from recursive self-improvement. > _______________________________________________ That's not what Altman said. He said today's AI has started to replace jobs of agencies, strategists, and creative professionals *now*. (As news reports say). In 5 years time, AGI will be doing much, much more. BillK From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun Mar 10 18:15:22 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2024 11:15:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] dark confession time In-Reply-To: References: <0d0601da711e$179b1d10$46d15730$@rainier66.com> <016201da71c8$34d01160$9e703420$@rainier66.com> <018501da71cd$fdb78c70$f926a550$@rainier66.com> <010b01da7228$3d01d700$b7058500$@rainier66.com> <002001da7297$6b5dd2b0$42197810$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 3:20?AM BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > snip > I hope you are not planning to do this in an abandoned coal mine! > Underground coal fires are burning all around the world as they are > almost impossible to extinguish. Personally, not planning such an adventure again. I don't know that a blast of this kind would set coal on fire. I kind of doubt it, but in any case, this was a hard rock sulfide mine. An interesting side note is that the smoke that rolled out of the mine afterward smelled like gunpowder smoke. Keith > > Quote: > The World's Oldest Underground Fire Has Been Burning For 6,000 Years > ------------------------ > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun Mar 10 18:52:27 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2024 11:52:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] uploads etc. In-Reply-To: References: <0d0601da711e$179b1d10$46d15730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: He invited the village elders in for a visit, telling them he was not a man but a medical spirit attached to the clinic. The elders accepted his statement with some relief and left to send in their sickest. The first was K'rekou, a five-year-old boy with ?Dapaong tumor,? due to a parasitic nematode O. bifurcum. Humans were not its normal host and that was part of what made it such a nasty disease. The mother was startled to see the old man but obeyed his instructions in perfect Tamari to lay her boy on the low table. K'rekou, emaciated and crying in obvious pain quieted, relaxed, and went to sleep. "This will take a few hours and your boy will be asleep for all of it. You may stay or come back for him after noon." Suskulan told her, "He will not wake up until you come to get him." K'rekou's mother would have stayed but she had another child at home. She left with some misgivings. The low table became hazy with nanomachines joining the first that had infiltrated into the boy's brain through skin and lungs alike to put him under anesthesia. The nanomachines reduced the firing of nerves just as simple anesthetics had been doing for 200 years. The haze thickened and K'rekou faded from sight. "Dapaong tumor" may present as a painful, abdominal mass with a diameter of 2?11 cm, typically adhering to the abdominal wall. Or it may present as pea-sized nodules in the large intestine. K'rekou had both. The mass, about the size of a golf ball and a little to the left of his navel, was the more obvious problem, but the damage to his large intestine was a greater drain on his health. Suskulan had sequenced the DNA left before he was activated, when K'rekou touched the sticky patch on the seed. K'rekou's compressed genome, along with those of the rest of the tata inhabitants, had been sent through the network, and his embryonic development and growth to his present age had been simulated with otherwise idle computing capacity. What he should be like at this stage of his growth was a checkpoint in the medical database for the tata. The process of healing was primarily one of comparing what should be with what was, and reducing the differences. Most of the comparison was done outside the boy in computing nodes cooled with a flow of ultra pure cold water. Still, there was a lot of heat-releasing manipulation required that had to be done slowly. To carry away the waste heat, K'rekou's blood was temporarily removed and replaced by a substitute solution pumped through him just above freezing. By 11:15 the parasites had been expunged, and the tissue around them reverted to normal. Enough damage had been done by the parasites to require temporary scaffolding in a few places. The scaffolding would release growth hormone until the cell proliferation filled in the gaps, and then it would dissolve. Other minor parasites were destroyed; ones that didn't cause problems were left; a minor hernia was fixed; and cell repair machines restored fat by injecting lipids into the fat cells--a cell-at-a-time reversed version of liposuction. Then K'rekou's blood was warmed up and put back. Finally the haze of nanomachines faded back into the table. By noon the boy, looking much healthier, woke up when his mother entered the clinic. His mother was astounded at the change. K'rekou wanted to go play with his friends. Suskulan, who had monitored the process rather than directed the fine details, was pleased. He sent off a report of his first case and received a number of congratulations from other clinics and humans. Over the next five months all of the inhabitants of the tata spent time on the table getting old and new, major and trivial medical problems fixed. Suskulan enjoyed serving the people of the tata and was extremely good at it. Once, four of the adult males came in back in agony after stumbling into a huge nest of enraged stinging insects. Suskulan took all four at once by putting two of them on the floor. The oldest were mildly regressed in age each time. Other than a boy who died alone far from the tata and was not found for several weeks, there were no deaths. It was a particularly long dry season. The spring dried up. The fields and gardens shriveled, the animals that didn't die moved far south where they could find something to eat. The granaries were low after a number of poor harvests, and food was short in supply and variety. Suskulan's patients started using the clinic to restore fat when they became gaunt. Suskulan increased the size of his solar collector to provide it. When the rains came back there was a record deluge. The only reason the tata was not swept away was the meter lift Suskulan had given it when he built his underground extensions. He added another half meter to them. By the time the long dry season came back the tata inhabitants were used to the clinic. December 2042 Far away, Lothar, Mabo and their fellow teams had completed planting clinics all the way to Cape of Good Hope. There were just short of a million of them, one for every 350 inhabitants on the ravaged continent. The planting went faster in the decimated cities; sometimes a crew could plant two or even three clinics in a day though security was more of a problem. After finishing Africa, Lothar and Mabo had a choice planting clinic seeds in South America, New Guinea, or Australia. Vacations were not considered since the Foundation's goal was to provide clinics seeds to every human group on earth before the end of 2044. In the opinion of the clinic seed planters, there was no more rewarding work on earth. May 2043 Early in the second wet season Suskulan received a major system upgrade. The upgrade went swiftly because Suskulan had stockpiled tens of thousands of liters of parts and fuel --most of it in the form of methyl alcohol--that he also was keeping in stock to be converted to fat if needed. Suskulan's first serious patient after the upgrade was Zaba, a 12 year old who had been shot through her spine while working in a garden. She was near death, and far beyond help by pre clinic standards, when she was placed in Suskulan's "hands." As the nanotech mist enveloped her still body, Suskulan quickly evaluated her than told her parents: "I can heal Zaba but it will take at least a week, perhaps as many as ten days. She will not be able to move or speak at first, but you can talk to her spirit at noon tomorrow." After they left Suskulan moved Zaba's body underground for better cooling and shorter connections to the mass of repair devices. With a small amount of his attention he constructed an image of the repair table and Zaba out of utility fog including the ghastly wounds. This time the nanomachines didn't infiltrate her brain just to shut it down, though they did that and reversed the mild damage from shock and low blood flow. The nanomachines mapped out all her neural circuits and cell connections. Shortly before her parents entered the clinic the next day they tentatively restored consciousness, partly in her brain--which was far below the temperature needed to run on its own--and partly in the haze of nanomachines that were also simulating input in place of her eyes and ears. "What happened to me? Where am I? Where is my body?" Zaba asked as she became conscious. She was calm because the nanomachines were acting as tranquilizers. Suskulan was listening to an interface to her mostly simulated motor cortex. To give Zaba orientation Suskulan imposed on her visual cortex a wire frame image of the human form he usually presented then explained: "You were shot, you are in the clinic Suskulan at the tata, and your body is under the clinic being repaired. The clinic recently gained new powers to speak to spirits while their bodies are being healed. The healing will take some time, even I do not know exactly how many days," he added, "You were badly injured." "My mother and father," Zaba started and then stopped. "They brought you to me yesterday and are very concerned. Your mother is holding the hand of an image of your body in the clinic. Suskulan switched her vision to one in the clinic looking at the repair table and Zaba?s parents. ?I can extend my power and let you use it to talk to them as if you were speaking through a telephone." Best wishes, Keith On > > > ----------------------------------- > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > extropy-chat mailing list > > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From atymes at gmail.com Sun Mar 10 19:10:09 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2024 12:10:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] interesting take on nuclear power In-Reply-To: References: <05953B2F-1B24-4AFA-86ED-CAC780E54446@gmail.com> <01c601da71d5$8f21ca20$ad655e60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 11:10?AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, 10 Mar 2024 at 17:55, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > wrote: > > On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 9:56?AM BillK via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Sun, 10 Mar 2024 at 16:28, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > >> wrote: > >> > On Sun, Mar 10, 2024, 4:41 AM BillK via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> Quote: > >> >> In a previously unreported quote, Sam Altman says that AI will do > "95% > >> >> of what marketers use agencies, strategists, and creative > >> >> professionals for today." > >> >> And, he says AGI will be a reality in "5 years, give or take, maybe > >> >> slightly longer." > >> >> > >> > >> > > >> > That's well short of the Singularity. > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > >> > >> Opinions vary on the timing of the arrival of the Singularity. > >> If AGI achieves the ability to recursively improve itself, then an > >> intelligence explosion could take place at exponential rates. It would > >> only be a relatively short time, possibly only a few years, before the > >> Singularity upheaval. > > > > > > My point is, replacing 95% of marketers is a far cry from recursive > self-improvement. > > _______________________________________________ > > > That's not what Altman said. > He said today's AI has started to replace jobs of agencies, > strategists, and creative professionals *now*. > (As news reports say). > In 5 years time, AGI will be doing much, much more. > It is not the case that AGI has replaced 95% of marketers today. Therefore, it seems logical to take the quote as a prediction that, perhaps, 95% will be replaced 5 years from now. (Otherwise it's a prediction that 95% will be replaced with no timestamp, which could be in 100 or 1,000 years.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Mar 10 20:59:00 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2024 20:59:00 +0000 Subject: [ExI] interesting take on nuclear power In-Reply-To: References: <05953B2F-1B24-4AFA-86ED-CAC780E54446@gmail.com> <01c601da71d5$8f21ca20$ad655e60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Mar 2024 at 19:12, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > It is not the case that AGI has replaced 95% of marketers today. Therefore, it seems logical to take the quote as a prediction that, perhaps, 95% will be replaced 5 years from now. (Otherwise it's a prediction that 95% will be replaced with no timestamp, which could be in 100 or 1,000 years.) > _______________________________________________ Altman is talking about two different entities. AGI does not exist at present and may not exist for about another 5 years. The simpler AI that we have now has already started replacing white collar jobs and may eventually replace 95% of white-collar jobs. JPMorgan?s AI-Aided Cashflow Model Can Cut Manual Work by 90%. That simpler AI will be developed over the next five years and is expected to lead to the creation of AGI. (Human-level Artificial General Intelligence). Human-level Artificial General Intelligence in 3-8 years, claims scientist at Beneficial AGI Summit (Ben Goertzel). Once AGI is developed in about five years time, it could thereafter lead fairly quickly to the Singularity. BillK From pharos at gmail.com Mon Mar 11 14:44:49 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2024 14:44:49 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Russia using AI killer drones in Ukraine Message-ID: Russia deploys ?killer robot? drones in Ukraine, as Nato urged to win arms race The Kremlin is using ?kamikaze drones? with an apparent new capacity to single out Ukrainian weaponry such as Western-supplied tanks and lock on to targets without the need for a pilot to control the final attack. Quotes: Moscow has previously boasted that it is developing fully automatic drones that can locate and destroy weaponry or defences without a human involved. Experts suggest that the ?target lock? system, which the Lancet?s manufacturer Zala has previously highlighted, uses machine learning to automatically identify a preloaded ?catalogue? of Ukrainian equipment, including high-end Western weaponry. It can then enter an attack mode which appears to operate without the need for a human pilot ? a system likely to have been developed to overcome electronic warfare jamming technology, which is capable of defeating a drone attack by blocking the signal from an operator. ----------------------- This claim may or may not be true, but the article reads as an incentive (or reason) for Western military forces to produce the same type of automatic killer drones. If the operator signals can now be blocked, then AI controlled automatic drones become a military requirement. BillK From atymes at gmail.com Mon Mar 11 15:18:47 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2024 08:18:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Russia using AI killer drones in Ukraine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is this AI akin to that in IR-guided homing missiles, or other such "kamikaze drones" that have been in use for decades? On Mon, Mar 11, 2024, 7:47 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Russia deploys ?killer robot? drones in Ukraine, as Nato urged to win arms > race > > The Kremlin is using ?kamikaze drones? with an apparent new capacity > to single out Ukrainian weaponry such as Western-supplied tanks and > lock on to targets without the need for a pilot to control the final > attack. > > < > https://inews.co.uk/news/russia-killer-robot-drones-ukraine-nato-arms-race-2950335 > > > Quotes: > Moscow has previously boasted that it is developing fully automatic > drones that can locate and destroy weaponry or defences without a > human involved. > > Experts suggest that the ?target lock? system, which the Lancet?s > manufacturer Zala has previously highlighted, uses machine learning to > automatically identify a preloaded ?catalogue? of Ukrainian equipment, > including high-end Western weaponry. > > It can then enter an attack mode which appears to operate without the > need for a human pilot ? a system likely to have been developed to > overcome electronic warfare jamming technology, which is capable of > defeating a drone attack by blocking the signal from an operator. > ----------------------- > > This claim may or may not be true, but the article reads as an > incentive (or reason) for Western military forces to produce the same > type of automatic killer drones. > If the operator signals can now be blocked, then AI controlled > automatic drones become a military requirement. > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Mon Mar 11 15:28:02 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2024 15:28:02 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Russia using AI killer drones in Ukraine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Who knows? It's all war propaganda - from both sides. BillK On Mon, 11 Mar 2024 at 15:21, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > Is this AI akin to that in IR-guided homing missiles, or other such "kamikaze drones" that have been in use for decades? > > On Mon, Mar 11, 2024, 7:47 AM BillK via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> Russia deploys ?killer robot? drones in Ukraine, as Nato urged to win arms race >> >> The Kremlin is using ?kamikaze drones? with an apparent new capacity >> to single out Ukrainian weaponry such as Western-supplied tanks and >> lock on to targets without the need for a pilot to control the final >> attack. >> >> >> Quotes: >> Moscow has previously boasted that it is developing fully automatic >> drones that can locate and destroy weaponry or defences without a >> human involved. >> >> Experts suggest that the ?target lock? system, which the Lancet?s >> manufacturer Zala has previously highlighted, uses machine learning to >> automatically identify a preloaded ?catalogue? of Ukrainian equipment, >> including high-end Western weaponry. >> >> It can then enter an attack mode which appears to operate without the >> need for a human pilot ? a system likely to have been developed to >> overcome electronic warfare jamming technology, which is capable of >> defeating a drone attack by blocking the signal from an operator. >> ----------------------- >> >> This claim may or may not be true, but the article reads as an >> incentive (or reason) for Western military forces to produce the same >> type of automatic killer drones. >> If the operator signals can now be blocked, then AI controlled >> automatic drones become a military requirement. >> >> BillK >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 11 16:12:05 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2024 09:12:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Russia using AI killer drones in Ukraine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004401da73ce$dd1bba10$97532e30$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Russia using AI killer drones in Ukraine On Mon, Mar 11, 2024, 7:47 AM BillK via extropy-chat > wrote: Russia deploys ?killer robot? drones in Ukraine, as Nato urged to win arms race ? >?Is this AI akin to that in IR-guided homing missiles, or other such "kamikaze drones" that have been in use for decades? Adrian, one of the known hazards of some IR guided weapons is that it stupidly seeks an hot spot to chase. Under many circumstances, the guy who fired it will serve perfectly well as its target. The US military adds sophisticated IFF (Identification Friend or Foe) tech to prevent weaponry from going traitor, so we can imagine how that has progressed. I can recall reading years ago about seekers having CCD arrays, as would be used for higher-frequency detection and image recognition. A loitering weapon could be programmed to recognize the bad guy?s launch site and pop that, rather than the hospitals, schools and apartments from among which the bad guy fired his missile. We can legitimately think of this AI-enabled image recognition technology as the modern version of the heat-seeking missile. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Mon Mar 11 17:13:34 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2024 10:13:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] uploads etc. In-Reply-To: References: <0d0601da711e$179b1d10$46d15730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Page 4 of 6 When her parents had entered the clinic Suskulan told them that Zaba could not move or feel anything yet, but if they wanted to speak to her spirit, it was nearby and he would try to invoke it. Tomorrow her spirit would be back in her body. Zaba had never used a telephone, the tata being well out of range of a cell tower but she knew what they were like. Suskulan's wire frame image handed Zaba a cell phone image. She reached out with her wire frame body and took it from him. "Mother?" Her voice came out of the speaker Suskulan used. "Zaba!" "Are you going to be all right Zaba?" "Suskulan says I will be, but he doesn't know how many days it will take. Can you get Tanko to finish weeding? "I will do it myself." Her mother said. She did not want to risk her other daughter. After a strange hour of visiting with Zaba?s spirit through a speaker and holding the warm but still hand of Zaba's utility fog image her mother and father left promising to come back the next day. When they left, Suskulan told Zaba that tomorrow she would be able to talk to her mother and feel her through the image. He offered to let her sleep till the next day, but Zaba was curious about what had happened to her. "Who shot me?" "That I do not know. However, the bullet fragments can be matched with the gun if someone else is shot or the gun is found. It was an AK-47 or similar. The bullet went through your spine." Sensing that she wanted to know more, Suskulan generated a wire frame of her body and fed it to her visual circuits. "The bullet entered the outer edge of your right nipple between ribs, passed through your right lung just missing your heart. It hit the 4th thoracic vertebrae, shattering it and severing your spinal cord." Since butchering animals was a common (but not common enough!) practice at the tata Zaba understood the picture she was seeing. "That takes a lot of fixing. Your body is being kept very cold so my healing spirits can work fast without burning up." "How do they work?" "Ah. Such a simple question; such a hard answer. The problem is you don't have the words; they don't exist in your language. To understand how healing spirits work would require that you learn to read and learn another language." Zaba, like 99% of the Tamberma, was illiterate. Not that learning to read in her language would have been much help. The only literature in the language was a translation of the Bible, not terribly useful to people with traditional religions. "Can you teach me this language and how to read?" Zaba asked. There was a short pause, which was really a very long pause for Suskulan as he projected what would happen and thought about the unstated (though obvious) reason he had been given the upgrade. "Yes" Suskulan said at last inflecting his voice to a sigh. "But it will change you and the rest of the people of the tata in ways you cannot foresee and may not like. You can sleep through the nine or ten days it will take to finish healing you. Are you sure you want to do this? "Yes," said Zaba firmly, "I want to learn." And thus was the fate of this particular tata determined, though in truth something like this had been ordained since Lothar and Mabo traded the clinic seed that became Suskulan for a fetish and before that when the Foundation organized the distribution of clinic seeds, and before that when an early clinic design was released under a creative commons license, and before that . . . leading back and back in time to when proto humans first discovered that a broken stone's sharp edge was just the thing to get at the meat under a hide. Subjectively Zaba talked to her parents every ten days. By the next day Suskulan had animated her image on the healing table so Zaba was able to speak through it and to feel her mother holding her utility fog image when she visited. Zaba?s real body was near freezing and 30 meters under the tata. Her biological memory was being mechanically updated in her very cold brain and her consciousness was running in a swarm of fast nano computers. Suskulan could have let her experience run even faster but he didn't want Zaba to get too far out of synch with her family and the rest of the tata. Mechanically constructed memory is a very efficient way to learn. With Suskulan's help Zaba learned to read her own language in a few hours, to be fluent in English in 15 days (subjective), to an eighth-grade equivalent education in 30 days and to a rough understanding of the physical and chemical background for nanotechnology by 60 days subjective. Toward the end of her stay in the clinic, Zaba had an understanding of what the swarms of repair devices were doing to restore her spinal cord, patiently teasing out where the nerves should be reconnected across the gap, replacing cell walls and myelin in the destroyed section, rebuilding the shattered bone, muscle and connective tissue and fishing out the bullet fragments down to single atoms of lead. She even had some understanding of how her mind was being supported in the nano computers that were acting in place of her very cold brain. A few hours before her parents were to come on the last day, Zaba warmed up her body under Suskulan's guidance. Her consciousness was continuous as the reactivated brain cells took over from the slowed down swarm of nano computers that had been simulating them. The support and information umbilical connections withdrew and the holes in her skin closed seamlessly as Zaba started breathing for the first time in 9 days. She sat up and coughed a few times. Her physical body was different from what she had experienced for the past subjective 90 days. Better? Worse? She could not decide. Zaba was delighted that there was no sign she had been shot. She walked around the huge underground space, which had become familiar to her in the past 3 months as she shifted her virtual viewpoint among clouds of utility fog. Zaba detected a few misconnected sensation nerves in one foot. Suskulan said if her brain did not adjust to them in a few days she should come back and the clinic would fix them. She was mildly distressed that she now had to voice talk to Suskulan, who appeared as a projection, instead of "talking" directly to his spirit in the spirit world she had inhabited. Then she realized from her new knowledge there was a way she could if she took a bit of the clinic with her. However, there wasn't much time to before her parents came. "Can I come back to visit even if I am not hurt?" she asked. "Yes. Anytime I don't have another patient." "May I take the clinic's interface with me?" "There is nothing so addictive . . ." thought Suskulan. "You may." Part of the cloud of nanomachines that had just left Zaba's brain returned as a momentary haze. Since they retained their memory of where they had been it was a matter of a few minutes before the machines reestablished their monitoring posts in Zaba's brain. "I missed not being able to talk to you in the spirit world." Zaba said without voicing. A wire frame image in Zaba's visual cortex overlaid the physical projected image of Suskulan. "Spirit talk does not reach as far as your garden." Suskulan warned her. Zaba lay down on the repair table that was now at the bottom of the elevator shaft. The elevator lifted it into its place in the clinic. Zaba was treated to seeing the rapidly thinning utility fog image of her body that had comforted her family for the last ten days before she merged into her image. The nanomachine haze that had fogged her image and now her real body withdrew into the low table. She greeted her family as they came into the clinic and in voice talk said goodbye to the image of an old man Suskulan was projecting. Then they stepped through the clinic's keyhole door to where the other members of the tata were waiting for a joyous celebration of the healing of Zaba. Suskulan sent off a strictly factual report. There were no replies this time, but perhaps that was due to the high report traffic. Her family had visited every day, but they were still delighted and relieved that Zaba was back with no visible effects from being shot. Her parents had been worried that her value as a bride might have been damaged, but none of the tata seemed to be concerned, only very proud of the growing powers of their clinic Suskulan. (The elders had long since wildly inflated the value of the fetish they had traded for the clinic seed.) Zaba had been warned not to flaunt her new knowledge to adults and with Suskulan's help had built temporary inhibitions into her mental processes. She was under no such injunction toward the other children, though. They were absolutely fascinated and wanted the ability to talk to Suskulan in the spirit world as well. In spirit world talk Zaba asked Suskulan if he would give the others an "interface" like she had. "Yes, though not in one day like I did with you. It takes several days to a week for an interface to establish itself unless you are very cold." And so, over the next month the children from 5 to 15 acquired interfaces to the local net, some of them getting mothers to take them to Suskulan for "belly pain" and others just slipping away to the clinic for an hour. A few days after Zaba was healed the village elders visited Suskulan to see if he knew how to prevent another of their people from being shot. On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 11:52?AM Keith Henson wrote: > > He invited the village elders in for a visit, telling them he was not > a man but a medical spirit attached to the clinic. The elders > accepted his statement with some relief and left to send in their > sickest. > > The first was K'rekou, a five-year-old boy with ?Dapaong tumor,? due > to a parasitic nematode O. bifurcum. Humans were not its normal host > and that was part of what made it such a nasty disease. The mother > was startled to see the old man but obeyed his instructions in perfect > Tamari to lay her boy on the low table. K'rekou, emaciated and crying > in obvious pain quieted, relaxed, and went to sleep. > > "This will take a few hours and your boy will be asleep for all of it. > You may stay or come back for him after noon." Suskulan told her, "He > will not wake up until you come to get him." > > K'rekou's mother would have stayed but she had another child at home. > She left with some misgivings. > > The low table became hazy with nanomachines joining the first that had > infiltrated into the boy's brain through skin and lungs alike to put > him under anesthesia. The nanomachines reduced the firing of nerves > just as simple anesthetics had been doing for 200 years. The haze > thickened and K'rekou faded from sight. > > "Dapaong tumor" may present as a painful, abdominal mass with a > diameter of 2?11 cm, typically adhering to the abdominal wall. Or it > may present as pea-sized nodules in the large intestine. K'rekou had > both. The mass, about the size of a golf ball and a little to the > left of his navel, was the more obvious problem, but the damage to his > large intestine was a greater drain on his health. > > Suskulan had sequenced the DNA left before he was activated, when > K'rekou touched the sticky patch on the seed. K'rekou's compressed > genome, along with those of the rest of the tata inhabitants, had been > sent through the network, and his embryonic development and > growth to his present age had been simulated with otherwise idle > computing capacity. What he should be like at this stage of his > growth was a checkpoint in the medical database for the tata. > > The process of healing was primarily one of comparing what should be > with what was, and reducing the differences. Most of the comparison > was done outside the boy in computing nodes cooled with a flow of > ultra pure cold water. Still, there was a lot of heat-releasing > manipulation required that had to be done slowly. To carry away the > waste heat, K'rekou's blood was temporarily removed and replaced by a > substitute solution pumped through him just above freezing. > > By 11:15 the parasites had been expunged, and the tissue around them > reverted to normal. Enough damage had been done by the parasites to > require temporary scaffolding in a few places. The scaffolding would > release growth hormone until the cell proliferation filled in the > gaps, and then it would dissolve. Other minor parasites were > destroyed; ones that didn't cause problems were left; a minor hernia > was fixed; and cell repair machines restored fat by injecting lipids > into the fat cells--a cell-at-a-time reversed version of liposuction. > Then K'rekou's blood was warmed up and put back. Finally the haze of > nanomachines faded back into the table. > > By noon the boy, looking much healthier, woke up when his mother > entered the clinic. His mother was astounded at the change. K'rekou > wanted to go play with his friends. Suskulan, who had monitored the > process rather than directed the fine details, was pleased. He sent > off a report of his first case and received a number of > congratulations from other clinics and humans. > > Over the next five months all of the inhabitants of the tata spent > time on the table getting old and new, major and trivial medical > problems fixed. Suskulan enjoyed serving the people of the tata and > was extremely > good at it. > > Once, four of the adult males came in back in agony after stumbling > into a huge nest of enraged stinging insects. Suskulan took all four > at once by putting two of them on the floor. The oldest were mildly > regressed in age each time. Other than a boy who died alone far from > the tata and was not found for several weeks, there were no deaths. > > It was a particularly long dry season. The spring dried up. The > fields and gardens shriveled, the animals that didn't die moved far > south where they could find something to eat. The granaries were low > after a number of poor harvests, and food was short in supply and > variety. > > Suskulan's patients started using the clinic to restore fat when they > became gaunt. Suskulan increased the size of his solar collector to > provide it. > > When the rains came back there was a record deluge. The only reason > the tata was not swept away was the meter lift Suskulan had given it > when he built his underground extensions. He added another half meter > to them. > > By the time the long dry season came back the tata inhabitants were > used to the clinic. > > December 2042 > > Far away, Lothar, Mabo and their fellow teams had completed planting > clinics all the way to Cape of Good Hope. There were just short of a > million of them, one for every 350 inhabitants on the ravaged > continent. The planting went faster in the decimated cities; > sometimes a crew could plant two or even three clinics in a day though > security was more of a problem. After finishing Africa, Lothar and > Mabo had a choice planting clinic seeds in South America, New Guinea, > or Australia. Vacations were not considered since the Foundation's > goal was to provide clinics seeds to every human group on earth before > the end of 2044. In the opinion of the clinic seed planters, there > was no more rewarding work on earth. > > May 2043 > > Early in the second wet season Suskulan received a major system > upgrade. The upgrade went swiftly because Suskulan had stockpiled tens > of thousands of liters of parts and fuel > --most of it in the form of methyl alcohol--that he also was keeping > in stock to be converted to fat if needed. > > Suskulan's first serious patient after the upgrade was Zaba, a 12 year > old who had been shot through her spine while working in a garden. > She was near death, and far beyond help by pre clinic standards, when > she was placed in Suskulan's "hands." > > As the nanotech mist enveloped her still body, Suskulan quickly > evaluated her than told her parents: > > "I can heal Zaba but it will take at least a week, perhaps as many as > ten days. She will not be able to move or speak at first, but you > can talk to her spirit at noon tomorrow." > > After they left Suskulan moved Zaba's body underground for better > cooling and shorter connections to the mass of repair devices. With a > small amount of his attention he constructed an image of the repair > table and Zaba out of utility fog including the ghastly wounds. > > This time the nanomachines didn't infiltrate her brain just to shut it > down, though they did that and reversed the mild damage from shock and > low blood flow. The nanomachines mapped out all her neural circuits > and cell connections. Shortly before her parents entered the clinic > the next day they tentatively restored consciousness, partly in her > brain--which was far below the temperature needed to run on its > own--and partly in the haze of nanomachines that were also simulating > input in place of her eyes and ears. > > "What happened to me? Where am I? Where is my body?" Zaba asked as > she became conscious. She was calm because the nanomachines were > acting as tranquilizers. Suskulan was listening to an interface to > her mostly simulated motor cortex. > > To give Zaba orientation Suskulan imposed on her visual cortex a wire > frame image of the human form he usually presented then explained: > > "You were shot, you are in the clinic Suskulan at the tata, and your > body is under the clinic being repaired. > > The clinic recently gained new powers to speak to spirits while their > bodies are being healed. > The healing will take some time, even I do not know exactly how many > days," he added, "You were badly injured." > > "My mother and father," Zaba started and then stopped. > > "They brought you to me yesterday and are very concerned. Your mother > is holding the hand of an image of your body in the clinic. Suskulan > switched her vision to one in the clinic looking at the repair table > and Zaba?s parents. ?I can extend my power and let you use it to > talk to them as if you were speaking through a telephone." > > > > > > > Best wishes, > > Keith > > On > > > > ----------------------------------- > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > extropy-chat mailing list > > > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From pharos at gmail.com Mon Mar 11 23:39:12 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2024 23:39:12 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Predictions for the next ten years Message-ID: Logan Kilpatrick (who recently left OpenAI) has made six predictions for the next ten years. I asked Claude to discuss these predictions. His opinion sounds reasonable to me. BillK Claude - Here are my thoughts on these predictions for the next 10 years (2024-2034): Create AGI (Artificial General Intelligence): This is perhaps the most ambitious and uncertain prediction on the list. While AI has made tremendous strides recently, most experts believe we are still quite far from achieving human-level general intelligence that can flexibly handle any cognitive task like the human brain can. Narrow AI will likely continue to get more powerful, but a full-fledged AGI by 2034 seems unlikely based on the current state of the technology and research. That said, breakthroughs can happen faster than expected. Full self-driving cars: This seems like a realistic possibility in the 10 year timeframe. Companies like Tesla, Waymo and others have made a lot of progress on autonomous driving. Many experts predict we'll have Level 4 autonomy (fully self-driving in most situations) widely available by the early 2030s. Key challenges remain around handling edge cases, inclement weather, unpredictable human drivers, and gaining regulatory approval. But overall, the building blocks are in place and it's plausible this could be realized by 2034. Humans on Mars: NASA and SpaceX are working towards crewed missions to Mars, with NASA targeting the 2030s and Elon Musk even more ambitiously aiming for SpaceX flights in the mid to late 2020s. But there are immense technical, safety, and funding challenges to overcome. Barring an incredible acceleration and massive investment, a crewed Mars landing might be a stretch for the 10-year horizon, but serious progress towards that goal seems likely, such as a human return to the Moon as a stepping stone. Internet everywhere on Earth: We'll almost certainly see a dramatic expansion of global internet connectivity by 2034. Between the proliferation of low-cost smartphones, expansion of cellular and Wi-Fi networks, new satellite internet constellations like Starlink and others, and technologies like 5G, it's quite conceivable that nearly every human on Earth could have some form of internet access 10 years from now, though speeds and costs may still vary considerably. Supersonic commercial jet travel: This seems entirely plausible by 2034. Companies like Boom Supersonic are already flight testing prototype supersonic airliners, aiming to carry passengers by the end of the decade. With lighter materials, more efficient engines, better aerodynamics, and quieter sonic booms, a new generation of economically viable and environmentally tolerable supersonic passenger jets could be flying in 10 years if development programs currently underway succeed. Many major diseases cured: This is a complex issue and "cured" is a high bar, but we're likely to see transformative breakthroughs in treating many diseases over the next 10 years. mRNA vaccines, gene therapies, immunotherapies, stem cells, CRISPR gene editing, and other technologies are ushering in a new era of medicine. We'll likely see major progress against cancer, genetic disorders, infectious diseases, Alzheimer's, and more, with some conditions effectively cured or prevented. But realistically, we'll still be far from curing all major diseases by 2034. In summary, I believe some of these predictions like global internet connectivity and supersonic flight are quite achievable in a 10-year timeframe, others like full self-driving are challenging but possible, and the most ambitious like AGI and a Mars landing are less likely by 2034 but we should see substantial progress. It will be an eventful decade of technological change. ------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Mar 12 00:10:21 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2024 17:10:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] bird saves fish Message-ID: <008001da7411$acc10d50$064327f0$@rainier66.com> I know, I know, just indulge me on this one, OK? It has nothing to do with Extropian anything, I just thought it was cool as hell: https://twitter.com/AMAZlNGNATURE/status/1766938510588604854 It looked intentional to me. I never woulda guessed a bird would do something like that. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Mar 12 01:01:17 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 01:01:17 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Predictions for the next ten years In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Mar 2024 at 23:39, BillK wrote: > Logan Kilpatrick (who recently left OpenAI) has made six predictions for > the next ten years. > I asked Claude to discuss these predictions. His opinion sounds reasonable > to me. > BillK > > Claude - > Here are my thoughts on these predictions for the next 10 years > (2024-2034): > > Create AGI (Artificial General Intelligence): > This is perhaps the most ambitious and uncertain prediction on the list. > While AI has made tremendous strides recently, most experts believe we are > still quite far from achieving human-level general intelligence that can > flexibly handle any cognitive task like the human brain can. Narrow AI will > likely continue to get more powerful, but a full-fledged AGI by 2034 seems > unlikely based on the current state of the technology and research. That > said, breakthroughs can happen faster than expected. > > Full self-driving cars: > This seems like a realistic possibility in the 10 year timeframe. > Companies like Tesla, Waymo and others have made a lot of progress on > autonomous driving. Many experts predict we'll have Level 4 autonomy (fully > self-driving in most situations) widely available by the early 2030s. Key > challenges remain around handling edge cases, inclement weather, > unpredictable human drivers, and gaining regulatory approval. But overall, > the building blocks are in place and it's plausible this could be realized > by 2034. > > Humans on Mars: > NASA and SpaceX are working towards crewed missions to Mars, with NASA > targeting the 2030s and Elon Musk even more ambitiously aiming for SpaceX > flights in the mid to late 2020s. But there are immense technical, safety, > and funding challenges to overcome. Barring an incredible acceleration and > massive investment, a crewed Mars landing might be a stretch for the > 10-year horizon, but serious progress towards that goal seems likely, such > as a human return to the Moon as a stepping stone. > > Internet everywhere on Earth: > We'll almost certainly see a dramatic expansion of global internet > connectivity by 2034. Between the proliferation of low-cost smartphones, > expansion of cellular and Wi-Fi networks, new satellite internet > constellations like Starlink and others, and technologies like 5G, it's > quite conceivable that nearly every human on Earth could have some form of > internet access 10 years from now, though speeds and costs may still vary > considerably. > > Supersonic commercial jet travel: > This seems entirely plausible by 2034. Companies like Boom Supersonic are > already flight testing prototype supersonic airliners, aiming to carry > passengers by the end of the decade. With lighter materials, more efficient > engines, better aerodynamics, and quieter sonic booms, a new generation of > economically viable and environmentally tolerable supersonic passenger jets > could be flying in 10 years if development programs currently underway > succeed. > > Many major diseases cured: > This is a complex issue and "cured" is a high bar, but we're likely to see > transformative breakthroughs in treating many diseases over the next 10 > years. mRNA vaccines, gene therapies, immunotherapies, stem cells, CRISPR > gene editing, and other technologies are ushering in a new era of medicine. > We'll likely see major progress against cancer, genetic disorders, > infectious diseases, Alzheimer's, and more, with some conditions > effectively cured or prevented. But realistically, we'll still be far from > curing all major diseases by 2034. > > In summary, I believe some of these predictions like global internet > connectivity and supersonic flight are quite achievable in a 10-year > timeframe, others like full self-driving are challenging but possible, and > the most ambitious like AGI and a Mars landing are less likely by 2034 but > we should see substantial progress. It will be an eventful decade of > technological change. > ------------------- > > So I asked Claude what he thought might develop over the next ten years. BillK Claude - Based on current trends, here are some potential developments that could occur over the next decade: 1. Continued advancement of artificial intelligence and machine learning, with AI becoming more integrated into various industries and aspects of daily life. This could lead to significant changes in the job market and economy. 2. Progress in sustainable energy solutions, such as improvements in solar, wind, and battery technologies. Electric vehicles may become more widespread as costs decrease and charging infrastructure expands. 3. Further development of space exploration technologies, including advancements in reusable rockets and the potential establishment of a permanent human presence on the Moon or Mars. 4. Advancements in healthcare, particularly in personalized medicine, gene therapies, and the use of AI and big data for disease prevention, diagnosis, and treatment. 5. Expansion of 5G networks and the development of 6G technology, leading to faster and more reliable connectivity, which could enable new applications in fields like the Internet of Things, autonomous vehicles, and remote work. 6. Increased adoption of virtual and augmented reality technologies in areas such as education, entertainment, tourism, and remote collaboration. 7. Shifts in global economic and political power dynamics, with the potential rise of emerging economies and changes in international trade and cooperation. 8. Growing impact of climate change, leading to more frequent extreme weather events, shifts in agricultural patterns, and increased focus on adaptation and mitigation strategies. 9. Demographic changes, such as aging populations in many countries, leading to challenges and opportunities in areas like healthcare, retirement, and automation. 10. Potential breakthroughs in quantum computing, which could revolutionize fields such as cryptography, drug discovery, logistics optimization, and financial modeling. These projections are based on current trends, but it's important to note that the future is always uncertain, and unforeseen events, scientific discoveries, or technological breakthroughs could significantly alter the trajectory of these developments. ------------------------ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Tue Mar 12 10:48:11 2024 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 04:48:11 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Will it be possible to see super heavy booster soft land from south padre island? Message-ID: I'm flying to Brownsville Texas tomorrow for an attempt to witness SpaceX's starship IFT3 launch. I've been trying to answer the subject question in this email. When I ask AIs, it seems to claim you will be able to see it land from South Padre Island. But whenever I check the references it provides, I can't find anything about actually seeing the water soft landing. This leads me to believe the AI may be hallucinating the idea that you'll be able to see the booster land from south padre island, or maybe at least hear the double sonic boom from the return to land? There are lots of sources that say you can see the launch from South Padre Island, but nothing to train the AI on whether you'll be able to see the booster do its soft landing in the water. Anyone here know anything about seeing the water soft landing? Brent -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Mar 12 12:09:46 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 12:09:46 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Will it be possible to see super heavy booster soft land from south padre island? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Mar 2024 at 10:51, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I'm flying to Brownsville Texas tomorrow for an attempt to witness > SpaceX's starship IFT3 launch. > > I've been trying to answer the subject question in this email. When I ask > AIs, it seems to claim you will be able to see it land from South Padre > Island. But whenever I check the references it provides, I can't find > anything about actually seeing the water soft landing. This leads me to > believe the AI may be hallucinating the idea that you'll be able to see the > booster land from south padre island, or maybe at least hear the double > sonic boom from the return to land? There are lots of sources that say you > can see the launch from South Padre Island, but nothing to train the AI on > whether you'll be able to see the booster do its soft landing in the water. > > Anyone here know anything about seeing the water soft landing? > > Brent > _______________________________________________ > Claude says the exact landing site is not specified, as it has to be well away from populated areas and in an exclusion zone. But you could be lucky. :) BillK Claude - The SpaceX Starship heavy booster is indeed planned to soft land in the Gulf of Mexico after launching from Starbase in Boca Chica, Texas. South Padre Island is the closest populated area to the launch site and landing zone. Whether the landing is visible from South Padre Island depends on several factors, such as weather conditions, time of day, and the precise location of the landing. On a clear day or night, it's quite possible that the descent of the booster could be seen from the island, especially considering the massive size of the vehicle. However, for safety reasons, the exact landing location is usually kept at a considerable distance from populated areas. SpaceX typically establishes an exclusion zone around the landing site, which may put it out of clear viewing range. That said, the launch itself should be easily visible from South Padre Island, as Starbase is only about 5 miles away. Residents and visitors have been able to see many of the previous Starship prototype launches from the area. It's best to follow official announcements from SpaceX and local authorities regarding visibility and safe viewing locations for any upcoming Starship launches and landings. Safety is paramount, and some areas may be closed off to the public during these events. ---------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ddraig at gmail.com Tue Mar 12 13:08:30 2024 From: ddraig at gmail.com (ddraig@pobox.com) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2024 00:08:30 +1100 Subject: [ExI] Extropia's Children Message-ID: Hi Have any of you come across this before? https://aiascendant.substack.com/p/extropias-children It was mentioned on this page: https://miniver.blogspot.com/2024/03/tescreal.html Dwayne -- ddraig at pobox.com ddraigbot / NSO / Connery ...r.e.t.u.r.n....t.o....t.h.e....s.o.u.r.c.e... http://fav.me/dqkgpd our aim is wakefulness, our enemy is dreamless sleep -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Mar 12 14:53:08 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 07:53:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] get real Message-ID: <008601da748c$ffdb0c40$ff9124c0$@rainier66.com> .heeeeeeeeeeheheheheheheeeeeee. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 21784 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Tue Mar 12 21:29:05 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 14:29:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] uploads etc. In-Reply-To: References: <0d0601da711e$179b1d10$46d15730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Page 5 of 6 Suskulan had expected this question. "I, Suskulan, can augment the spirits in your powerful fetishes. Placed around your gardens on tall poles they will chatter like a monkey if someone approaches who is not of the tata." Suskulan's image wavered into a more unsubstantial translucent mode. The village elders quickly agreed to bring him a number of fetishes to be "augmented." By the next evening, he had a dozen fetish skulls and the 2-meter poles to hold them placed inside the clinic. Suskulan's fog of nanomachines equipped each of the skulls with eyes, a solar power collector hat, power storage and a local area transceiver plus enough utility fog to serve as local actuators. Image 4 - Skulls There was argument that night if men or women should plant the poles so they asked Suskulan. "Children," he told them. "Three boys and three girls." He told them that Zaba should be included. Zaba and five other older children took the ward poles out to the garden, planting the first few along the path at 50-meter intervals where they could serve as relays. Zaba was delighted she could spirit talk to Suskulan through the ward poles all the way to the garden. Suskulan directed where the ward poles should be planted through her. It was prudent that the children planted the ward poles and that the adults didn't get a good look at them. Suskulan had indulged his sense of humor by regenerating skin and hair on the fetish skulls and placing eyes in the sockets that disturbingly rolled this way and that. In the week after the poles were planted, they grew roots like the ones that had anchored the clinic seed when it first sprouted. The poles grew dark leaves for solar collectors and the fetishes were able to rotate on the pole. (An artistic flourish since they had eyes in the back and sides of the head as well as the front.) All of the poles became strong beyond belief as Suskulan's remote controlled assemblers laid down nanotube fibers. [1] Two of them telescoped up ten meters over a period of weeks to get a wide area view. Who had shot Zaba remained a mystery. Suskulan and the neighboring clinics never located a suspect. December 2043 The next dry season was almost as brutal as the first. Suskulan was asked about supplying the tata with food. He explained that was beyond what he was permitted to do. Food again was in short supply. Suskulan restored fat on children several at a time. Instead of their being unconscious while it was done, or talking only to him, he let them play together in the spirit world, their bodies cooled to near freezing and experiencing ten hours for every real time hour. Suskulan had enough distributed processing now that wire frame body images had been replaced by polygons, better than cartoons but simplified compared to real life. The physics model was earth standard even to the point of pain from running into a spirit world tree. The children who were so inclined were offered instruction. Most of the children learned enough to manipulate the web cameras where they could look out at places across the world and as far out as geosynchronous orbit and to play games (of which there was a huge variety) in the spirit world. Eventually they discovered the library that could show them movies. They finally understood the mysterious fixed lights in the sky that had appeared ten years before as "solar power satellites," or "power sats" that converted sunlight into microwaves beamed to giant receivers on earth. There were many "rectennas" in Europe and Asia, but the infrastructure to use huge blocks of power was missing south of the Sahara. In spite of efforts by the children to keep their extra vision secret, the adults figured out the children could see through the ward poles because it became impossible to sneak up on one of the children if they were near the garden. The adults asked Suskulan how it was done and could they get it too? Shortly the older children had to move away from the garden if they wanted privacy for sex. Then they discovered that sex in the spirit world was more fun, especially after they talked Suskulan into locally reducing the gravity in the physics models. (Sex in the simulation had no biological consequences. Producing food out of the simulation or producing babies in the simulated world were two built in limits Suskulan had no desire to break.) By the end of the dry season, the tata inhabitants were spending half their time with their bodies in a very cold state deep under the clinic and their minds in the spirit world--which now sported a copy of the tata sitting in the middle of an otherwise uninhabited world. With the start of the wet season and the need to plant and maintain the physical-world houses all of them were out of the clinic for a few months except when they needed it for medical reasons. Expecting him to say no, the tata elders asked Suskulan if he could make their houses more resistant to the rain. To their surprise, Suskulan agreed and poured a large store of fuel and molecular parts into weather proofing the mud dwellings with tiny diamond sheets. The houses didn't look much different after Suskulan worked on them (unless you caught the light at just the right angle) but they were as proof against the weather as the clinic walls. Just before the next dry season arrived, Suskulan got another update, and with the additional processing he installed, life within the "spirit world" became very much like that outside in attention to detail. (Except no bedbugs, lice or mosquitoes!) December 2044 With the start of the dry season, more and more of the tata members spent most of their time in the spirit world, sometimes sleeping there and only coming out to work the gardens or harvest. With substantially fewer people eating, the granaries filled up. That and weather proofing the houses further reduced the need to spend a lot of time in the physical world. May 2045 Just after the wet season started a "mole" laying an optical fiber burrowed into the tata linking Suskulan to the rest of the clinics. No longer limited by satellite bandwidth and latency, his "patients" could travel by optical fiber and experience the virtual or physical world any place on the planet while their bodies lay in Suskulan's underground extension. Few of them were interested in going outside of their language group, even with excellent translation services (Zaba was an exception). But they did use "seven league boots" to visit relatives in other tatas, something that had been curtailed since the pox years. At the same time those in the spirit world were allowed to change the simulation, locally for their own consciousness or if they wanted to change public parts by consensus. The spirit world tata didn?t change much, but the inside of the dwellings became larger than the outside as Suskulan relaxed the physics rules on request. Zaba often talked to Suskulan. She eventually acquired a top-level understanding of all of human knowledge and had access to the details through simulated memory. Suskulan warned her that she might have a difficult time in the physical world if she got out of communication because her mind had expanded well beyond what could be supported in a brain. "Why would I want to go back to being stupid?" she responded, but, after thinking about it, she warmed up her body and moved her consciousness back into her original brain. Her boyfriend was deep in a game and would not come along. (She had a boyfriend because the older man her parents expected to marry her to had lost interest after asking for and being given half a dozen simulated concubines.) Zaba was one of the few Suskulan permitted to be in the physical state in his underground extensions. He was not concerned about the safety of his racks of freezing cold patients, supported as they were in a web of nanomachines. He just didn?t want those who did not want to know how they went in and out of the spirit world to be concerned about the underlying physical details. She rode up the elevator and left the clinic and the spirit world for a day. Walking beyond the reach of the local net was a disconcerting experience at first but even without the net, Zaba's mind was impressive. She remembered what Suskulan had said about staying awake and learning while being healed and how it would change her and the people of the tata. It certainly had! For better or for worse? For better in that nobody died of fevers, nasty parasites, or malnutrition since Suskulan had come into their lives. People didn't even die of old age with a clinic to regress age for them and they aged in the spirit world only to the extent they wanted. For worse in that she could not have children unless she left the clinic for their gestation. Zaba had read the design notes that led up to the creation of the clinics and their spirits and had long understood the mathematics behind Suskulan's limits. In the long run, births and deaths had to match. If you wanted no deaths, then there could be no births. Since fetal development was arrested while in the clinic, (but not post-birth growth) a number of families stuck it out until a child was born, then moved back into the more attractive spirit world tata to raise the child. Page 6 of 6 Zaba visited with the few remaining families in person, then returned to the clinic and the spirit world. She was not inclined to leave it again. December 2045 By the start of the dry season in 2045 the presence of physical-state humans was rare, not just in the tata Suskulan served, but also in a wave moving south along the routes Lothar, Mabo and their fellow clinic seed planters had traveled so long ago. Suskulan used extensions made of utility fog to keep the leaves and fallen palm fronds swept out of the tata. The weatherproofed tata required little other maintenance. May 2046 A few months after the last family from the tata moved into the spirit world with no intent to come out, Suskulan rounded up the tata's elders. Some of them were living in simulated palaces with dozens of simulated servants and companions. Taking on his translucent vestige from his first meeting with them, he addressed the group in a simulation of the physical-world clinic. "Remember the leopard who pissed on Lothar's Land Rover when he brought the clinic seed to your tata?" They did and laughed at the memory. "That leopard has been nosing around the empty physical-world tata." Suskulan showed them video of the large curious cat cautiously investigating the neatly maintained but empty tata. "The physical-world tata is your property, and for that matter, the clinic that is Suskulan is your property." Suskulan reminded them, "You exchanged a valuable fetish for it." The elders accepted this, though it made them a bit uncomfortable. "Would you mind if the leopard slept in one of the houses?" "Will you chase him out when we go back to visit the physical world?" one of them asked. With assurances from Suskulan that he would run the leopard off anytime anyone ventured back into the physical-world tata they said the leopard could sleep in the tata. The tata was home to the leopard for the rest of his life. From pharos at gmail.com Wed Mar 13 12:33:11 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2024 12:33:11 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Mind Upload problems Message-ID: Uploaded minds run many times faster than real-world human minds. It will be impossible to upload everyone at once. This means that early uploads will have evolved into very different intelligences by the time that later uploads arrive into their world. It also emphasises that the first uploads should not have any 'faults' in their mentality, as results could be very unpredictable. This leads to very serious problems, as Claude realised when I asked him. BillK First I asked - Uploaded minds evolve many times faster. How will later uploads cope with the more advanced uploads? Claude - The scenario you raise highlights one of the major potential challenges and risks associated with the hypothetical technology of mind uploading - the possibility of vastly different rates of advancement and evolution between uploaded minds, leading to significant disparities and challenges for later uploads trying to integrate into a world dominated by more advanced uploaded minds. If uploaded minds can evolve and improve themselves at a much faster rate than biological human minds, then early uploads would have a significant head start. They may quickly advance to levels of intelligence and capability far beyond those of later uploads who start out at a level closer to an unmodified human mind. This could create a number of difficulties for later uploads: 1. Technological and knowledge gaps: Later uploads may find themselves struggling to catch up with the advanced knowledge, skills, and technologies developed by earlier uploads. They may face a steep learning curve and feel constantly behind. 2. Power imbalances: Earlier uploads may wield significantly more power and influence due to their advanced capabilities. This could create power imbalances and inequalities between different "generations" of uploads. 3. Difficulty relating and integrating: The experiences, perspectives, and even values of highly advanced uploads may be quite foreign and difficult to relate to for later uploads. This could create barriers to social integration and understanding. 4. Existential and psychological challenges: Facing a world dominated by superintelligent uploads, later uploads may grapple with feelings of inferiority, alienation, and uncertainty about their place and purpose. It could be highly psychologically challenging. 5. Dependence and control: If earlier uploads control the key systems and infrastructures of the world, later uploads may find themselves dependent on and potentially controlled by the earlier uploads, with limited autonomy. To cope with these challenges, later uploads would likely need significant support and resources to help them adapt and integrate. This could include access to accelerated learning tools, mentorship from earlier uploads, protected spaces to develop and grow at their own pace, and efforts to ensure their rights and autonomy are respected. However, the gulf between early and later uploads may simply be too vast to fully bridge. We may see a fundamental divergence of uploaded minds into different strata based on their time of uploading. Careful governance and efforts to uphold principles of equality would be essential to mitigate some of the worst potential disparities and abuses. These are complex sociological and philosophical issues that would need to be grappled with carefully. The specific outcomes would depend on how the technology is developed and deployed. But in general, the vastly different rates of advancement possible for digital minds is one of the major reasons why mind uploading would be so transformative and raise profound challenges for society to navigate. Extensive foresight, planning, and ethical safeguards would be needed to try to achieve positive outcomes. ----------------------------- Then I followed up with - What happens if the first uploads have mental problems? Can this be avoided? Claude - If the first uploads have mental problems, it could lead to serious negative consequences and risks, especially given the potential for uploaded minds to evolve and become more advanced at a rapid pace. Some potential issues include: 1. Amplification of mental issues: Mental health problems present in the original biological mind, such as depression, anxiety, or personality disorders, could be amplified in the uploaded state. Without the constraints of biology, these issues might manifest in more extreme and unpredictable ways. 2. Propagation of problematic traits: If early uploads with mental problems are able to evolve and create copies or variations of themselves, they might spread their problematic traits more widely. This could lead to a proliferation of uploaded minds with serious mental health challenges. 3. Unintended consequences: The actions and decisions of uploaded minds with mental problems could be erratic, harmful, or misguided. Given their potentially advanced capabilities, this could have far-reaching unintended consequences for digital and real-world systems they interact with. 4. Difficulty of intervention: Once a mind is uploaded, it may be challenging to intervene or provide effective mental health treatment. Traditional therapeutic approaches may not translate well to a digital substrate, and the autonomy of uploaded minds may need to be respected even if they are behaving problematically. 5. Societal risks: If early uploaded minds with mental problems are in positions of power or influence, it could pose major societal risks. Their altered decision-making could have negative impacts on a large scale. To try to avoid these scenarios, a few key steps would be critical: 1. Rigorous pre-upload screening: Before allowing any mind to be uploaded, extensive psychological evaluation and screening should be conducted to identify any pre-existing mental health issues. Only minds that are deemed psychologically stable and healthy should be approved for uploading. 2. Ongoing monitoring and support: Even with screening, it's possible for mental health issues to emerge after uploading. There would need to be ongoing monitoring of uploaded minds and robust support systems in place to identify and intervene if problems arise. 3. Secure containment and testing: Initial uploads should occur in secure, isolated digital environments where their actions can be contained and studied. Extensive testing of their psychological stability and decision-making should be conducted before giving them any access to wider systems. 4. Governance and regulation: Clear governance frameworks and regulations would be needed to oversee the uploading process and respond to any problematic uploads. This may require the ability to pause, isolate, or even delete uploaded minds if they pose serious threats and can't be rehabilitated. 5. Advancing digital psychology: Significant research would be needed to better understand the psychological dynamics of uploaded minds and develop effective approaches for digital mental health care. This would be an important foundation for proactively addressing potential mental health issues. However, even with these precautions, the risk of mental health problems in uploaded minds can't be eliminated entirely. The complexity of the human mind and the radical nature of uploading mean that unexpected psychological issues could still emerge. Monitoring and responding to these issues would need to be an ongoing priority as the technology develops. The potential for uploaded minds to shape the trajectory of human civilization means that their psychological stability is of paramount importance. Careful screening, oversight, and support would be essential to try to start the uploading process on a positive path. But it remains an open question whether we can fully predict or control the mental states of minds translated to a radically different substrate. Caution and humility are certainly called for. ----------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Mar 13 13:17:39 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2024 13:17:39 +0000 Subject: [ExI] The Terrible Costs of a Phone-Based Childhood Message-ID: The Terrible Costs of a Phone-Based Childhood For a little over a decade, we have been raising children in an environment that is hostile to human development. We need to change that now. By Jonathan Haidt March 13, 2024, Quote: Something went suddenly and horribly wrong for adolescents in the early 2010s. By now you?ve likely seen the statistics: Rates of depression and anxiety in the United States?fairly stable in the 2000s?rose by more than 50 percent in many studies from 2010 to 2019. The suicide rate rose 48 percent for adolescents ages 10 to 19. For girls ages 10 to 14, it rose 131 percent. ----------------- This is a very long article, quoting much supporting evidence. So I asked an AI for a sort summary' AI Summary - The article from The Atlantic titled "The Terrible Costs of a Phone-Based Childhood" discusses the negative impacts of smartphone use on adolescents beyond the commonly debated mental health issues. The author acknowledges that while mental health is a central concern, the sudden and incautious transformation of childhood due to smartphones has led to additional harms. These include social awkwardness, reduced self-confidence, and a more sedentary lifestyle. The article also addresses the broader dislike among young people for their phone-based lives and considers whether the rise in adolescent mental illness can be attributed to the advent of the phone-based childhood. The author mentions that skeptics might point to other events as potential causes for this epidemic, such as the 2008 global financial crisis, global warming, the Sandy Hook school shooting and subsequent active-shooter drills, increased academic pressures, and the opioid epidemic. ---------------------------------- From spike at rainier66.com Wed Mar 13 14:12:41 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2024 07:12:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Terrible Costs of a Phone-Based Childhood In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00ad01da7550$8339fce0$89adf6a0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Sent: Wednesday, 13 March, 2024 6:18 AM To: Extropy Chat Cc: BillK Subject: [ExI] The Terrible Costs of a Phone-Based Childhood The Terrible Costs of a Phone-Based Childhood For a little over a decade, we have been raising children in an environment that is hostile to human development. We need to change that now. By Jonathan Haidt March 13, 2024, BillK, a friend is trying to teach his daughter to drive. She is in her mid 20s. Having a very difficult time of it, so he hired a professional drivers education trainer to work with her one on one. The trainer had some most interesting comments, a guy who has been doing this for a living for 36 years. He commented that there was a sudden and mysterious change that happened over about 5 years. He struggled to understand why his students came to him with so very little intuition for how a car works and how traffic works. They had to be taught the basics, stuff that 20 years ago all of them just knew. Now, a lot of students come in for first-time driver training when they are older, plenty of them in their 20s, whereas before they were almost all teenagers. Any ideas about why drivers in training were suddenly clueless? OK the trainer speculated that as soon as video games and phones came along, kids growing up being driven around by their parents stopped paying attention to how the driver was operating the car. They had better things to do. So... they reached driving age and had no idea what to do. spike From postmowoods at gmail.com Wed Mar 13 16:47:59 2024 From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2024 10:47:59 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Communications a Moore's Law Phenomenon? Message-ID: I've had this thought for some time. But I don't think I've shared it with anyone, so I thought I'd get it out. If you look at the general shape of history, you'll see that it has followed an exponential sort of curve in communications. I know this has been documented in network bandwidth, but I'm going a little more general. So a hundred thousand years ago, our ancestors were grunting intelligently at each other, but may or may not have had efficient language and grammar to communicate efficiently. Shoot forward to ten thousand years ago, and they did have awesome verbal skills, but communicating over distances was limited to things like drumming on trees. Go to a thousand years ago, and people could write letters, but there was no formal system for sending them, so far as I'm aware. Postage stamps were invented in the mid 19th century, for example. Then recently, we've hit the curve with the telegraph, telephone, fax, emails, SMS, Instagram, X, facebook... that are on a graph that seems a bit exponential in terms of bits of information per human and in terms of the number of humans we're communicating with. So, if we put this on an exponential curve forward, it seems that at some point, we won't have enough hours in the day to keep this curve going. So what happens then? I postulate that AIs will communicate on our behalf, and that this will reduce the amount of time we actually spend talking to each other directly. On this list, in fact, I've seen a number of us post AI missives already. I've done it myself. So, at some point, we'll be communicating with so many people, so often, that we won't even know it's happening, except in some sort of vague way... like a CEO having an executive secretary. Now, I haven't gone all Ray Kurzweil documenting the speed of communication, but it seems to fit the law of accelerating returns as well as anything else. With the problems noted with kids not being aware of how cars work, or my own child not knowing how to address and send an envelope until she was well into her 20s... I can only imagine this "people not being able to communicate directly" thing only getting worse. I already have my AI reword my important emails because it's easier. This one was written without that assistance. Is it because you guys aren't important enough? Or is it because I deem you so important that you get the personalized treatment? -Kelly From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Mar 13 17:04:45 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2024 10:04:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Mind Upload problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 13, 2024 at 5:35?AM BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > > Uploaded minds run many times faster than real-world human minds. They can also run much slower, useful if you are going interstellar. > It will be impossible to upload everyone at once. This means that early uploads will have evolved into very different intelligences by the time that later uploads arrive into their world. I discussed this in The Clinic Seed and in my speculation article "Transhumanism and the Human Expansion into Space: a Conflict with Physics". Archived from the original on November 30, 2012. If we have million to one uploads by mid century, then by the end of the century those people will have 50 million subjective years. However, based on Tabby's star, I don't think people will run that fast. The faster you urn the smaller any communicating group has to be due to light speed. The largest of those structures is 2.5 seconds across, so they might be running no faster than we do. > It also emphasises that the first uploads should not have any 'faults' in their mentality, as results could be very unpredictable. True, but you may be able to restore from backup if something goes wrong. > This leads to very serious problems, as Claude realised when I asked him. > > BillK > > > First I asked - Uploaded minds evolve many times faster. How will later uploads cope with the more advanced uploads? > > Claude - > The scenario you raise highlights one of the major potential challenges and risks associated with the hypothetical technology of mind uploading - the possibility of vastly different rates of advancement and evolution between uploaded minds, leading to significant disparities and challenges for later uploads trying to integrate into a world dominated by more advanced uploaded minds. > > If uploaded minds can evolve and improve themselves at a much faster rate than biological human minds, then early uploads would have a significant head start. They may quickly advance to levels of intelligence and capability far beyond those of later uploads who start out at a level closer to an unmodified human mind. > > This could create a number of difficulties for later uploads: > > 1. Technological and knowledge gaps: Later uploads may find themselves struggling to catch up with the advanced knowledge, skills, and technologies developed by earlier uploads. They may face a steep learning curve and feel constantly behind. > > 2. Power imbalances: Earlier uploads may wield significantly more power and influence due to their advanced capabilities. This could create power imbalances and inequalities between different "generations" of uploads. > > 3. Difficulty relating and integrating: The experiences, perspectives, and even values of highly advanced uploads may be quite foreign and difficult to relate to for later uploads. This could create barriers to social integration and understanding. > > 4. Existential and psychological challenges: Facing a world dominated by superintelligent uploads, later uploads may grapple with feelings of inferiority, alienation, and uncertainty about their place and purpose. It could be highly psychologically challenging. > > 5. Dependence and control: If earlier uploads control the key systems and infrastructures of the world, later uploads may find themselves dependent on and potentially controlled by the earlier uploads, with limited autonomy. > > To cope with these challenges, later uploads would likely need significant support and resources to help them adapt and integrate. This could include access to accelerated learning tools, mentorship from earlier uploads, protected spaces to develop and grow at their own pace, and efforts to ensure their rights and autonomy are respected. > > However, the gulf between early and later uploads may simply be too vast to fully bridge. We may see a fundamental divergence of uploaded minds into different strata based on their time of uploading. Careful governance and efforts to uphold principles of equality would be essential to mitigate some of the worst potential disparities and abuses. > > These are complex sociological and philosophical issues that would need to be grappled with carefully. The specific outcomes would depend on how the technology is developed and deployed. But in general, the vastly different rates of advancement possible for digital minds is one of the major reasons why mind uploading would be so transformative and raise profound challenges for society to navigate. Extensive foresight, planning, and ethical safeguards would be needed to try to achieve positive outcomes. > ----------------------------- > > Then I followed up with - What happens if the first uploads have mental problems? Can this be avoided? > > Claude - > If the first uploads have mental problems, it could lead to serious negative consequences and risks, especially given the potential for uploaded minds to evolve and become more advanced at a rapid pace. Some potential issues include: > > 1. Amplification of mental issues: Mental health problems present in the original biological mind, such as depression, anxiety, or personality disorders, could be amplified in the uploaded state. Without the constraints of biology, these issues might manifest in more extreme and unpredictable ways. > > 2. Propagation of problematic traits: If early uploads with mental problems are able to evolve and create copies or variations of themselves, they might spread their problematic traits more widely. This could lead to a proliferation of uploaded minds with serious mental health challenges. > > 3. Unintended consequences: The actions and decisions of uploaded minds with mental problems could be erratic, harmful, or misguided. Given their potentially advanced capabilities, this could have far-reaching unintended consequences for digital and real-world systems they interact with. > > 4. Difficulty of intervention: Once a mind is uploaded, it may be challenging to intervene or provide effective mental health treatment. Traditional therapeutic approaches may not translate well to a digital substrate, and the autonomy of uploaded minds may need to be respected even if they are behaving problematically. > > 5. Societal risks: If early uploaded minds with mental problems are in positions of power or influence, it could pose major societal risks. Their altered decision-making could have negative impacts on a large scale. > > To try to avoid these scenarios, a few key steps would be critical: > > 1. Rigorous pre-upload screening: Before allowing any mind to be uploaded, extensive psychological evaluation and screening should be conducted to identify any pre-existing mental health issues. Only minds that are deemed psychologically stable and healthy should be approved for uploading. > > 2. Ongoing monitoring and support: Even with screening, it's possible for mental health issues to emerge after uploading. There would need to be ongoing monitoring of uploaded minds and robust support systems in place to identify and intervene if problems arise. > > 3. Secure containment and testing: Initial uploads should occur in secure, isolated digital environments where their actions can be contained and studied. Extensive testing of their psychological stability and decision-making should be conducted before giving them any access to wider systems. > > 4. Governance and regulation: Clear governance frameworks and regulations would be needed to oversee the uploading process and respond to any problematic uploads. This may require the ability to pause, isolate, or even delete uploaded minds if they pose serious threats and can't be rehabilitated. > > 5. Advancing digital psychology: Significant research would be needed to better understand the psychological dynamics of uploaded minds and develop effective approaches for digital mental health care. This would be an important foundation for proactively addressing potential mental health issues. > > However, even with these precautions, the risk of mental health problems in uploaded minds can't be eliminated entirely. The complexity of the human mind and the radical nature of uploading mean that unexpected psychological issues could still emerge. Monitoring and responding to these issues would need to be an ongoing priority as the technology develops. > > The potential for uploaded minds to shape the trajectory of human civilization means that their psychological stability is of paramount importance. Careful screening, oversight, and support would be essential to try to start the uploading process on a positive path. But it remains an open question whether we can fully predict or control the mental states of minds translated to a radically different substrate. Caution and humility are certainly called for. > ----------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From msd001 at gmail.com Wed Mar 13 17:46:18 2024 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2024 13:46:18 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Communications a Moore's Law Phenomenon? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 12:50 PM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > going. So what happens then? I postulate that AIs will communicate on > our behalf, and that this will reduce the amount of time we actually > spend talking to each other directly. On this list, in fact, I've seen > a number of us post AI missives already. I've done it myself. So, at > some point, we'll be communicating with so many people, so often, that > we won't even know it's happening, except in some sort of vague way... > like a CEO having an executive secretary. > [Snip] > This one was written without that assistance. Is it because you guys > aren't important enough? Or is it because I deem you so important that > you get the personalized treatment? > I have also imagined that our AI exo-self will act as agents on our behalf at volumes and speeds that we currently cannot comprehend. I find myself more and more simply not commenting on facebook's content - is it because the content is garbage? Perhaps some. Is it because bad faith actors will pounce on the least important words while also missing my point completely? Yup, that too. So yeah, there's another reason we won't actually "talk" directly to each other: talking is more work effort than the reward. fwiw: if it's clear (as etiquette seems to have organically established) that the OP couldn't be bothered to write, I see no reason we (the intended audience) should be bothered to read. So maybe your unaugmented self is signalling safety and trust for this community by investing the time/effort to write because you intend for us to read you. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From efc at swisscows.email Wed Mar 13 17:53:53 2024 From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2024 18:53:53 +0100 (CET) Subject: [ExI] The Terrible Costs of a Phone-Based Childhood In-Reply-To: <00ad01da7550$8339fce0$89adf6a0$@rainier66.com> References: <00ad01da7550$8339fce0$89adf6a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <53388c91-8b0d-1537-6fd5-9f8ad5527034@swisscows.email> On Wed, 13 Mar 2024, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat > Sent: Wednesday, 13 March, 2024 6:18 AM > To: Extropy Chat > Cc: BillK > Subject: [ExI] The Terrible Costs of a Phone-Based Childhood > > The Terrible Costs of a Phone-Based Childhood > > For a little over a decade, we have been raising children in an environment that is hostile to human development. We need to change that now. > By Jonathan Haidt March 13, 2024, > > > > > BillK, a friend is trying to teach his daughter to drive. She is in her mid 20s. Having a very difficult time of it, so he hired a professional drivers education trainer to work with her one on one. The trainer had some most interesting comments, a guy who has been doing this for a living for 36 years. He commented that there was a sudden and mysterious change that happened over about 5 years. He struggled to understand why his students came to him with so very little intuition for how a car works and how traffic works. They had to be taught the basics, stuff that 20 years ago all of them just knew. Now, a lot of students come in for first-time driver training when they are older, plenty of them in their 20s, whereas before they were almost all teenagers. > > Any ideas about why drivers in training were suddenly clueless? > > OK the trainer speculated that as soon as video games and phones came along, kids growing up being driven around by their parents stopped paying attention to how the driver was operating the car. They had better things to do. So... they reached driving age and had no idea what to do. > Hello guys, On the same theme I can also recommend the documentary The Social Dilemma (2020). Quite interesting, and since I do not own a smart phone it is also fascinating for me to get a glimpse of how extreme smart phone users live their lives. Never have I been so happy that I decided to dump mine when I left the corporate IT world to start my own company. I also believe that there are several factors underlying what we see today, but I also do believe that smart phones and what ever people do on them is a strong contributing factor. Best regards, Daniel From efc at swisscows.email Wed Mar 13 18:05:34 2024 From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2024 19:05:34 +0100 (CET) Subject: [ExI] Communications a Moore's Law Phenomenon? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Mar 2024, Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat wrote: > On Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 12:50 PM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat wrote: > > going. So what happens then? I postulate that AIs will communicate on > our behalf, and that this will reduce the amount of time we actually > spend talking to each other directly. On this list, in fact, I've seen > a number of us post AI missives already. I've done it myself. So, at > some point, we'll be communicating with so many people, so often, that > we won't even know it's happening, except in some sort of vague way... > like a CEO having an executive secretary. > [Snip] > This one was written without that assistance. Is it because you guys > aren't important enough? Or is it because I deem you so important that > you get the personalized treatment? > > > I have also imagined that our AI exo-self will act as agents on our behalf at volumes and speeds that we currently cannot > comprehend.? > > I find myself more and more simply not commenting on facebook's content - is it because the content is garbage? Perhaps some.? Is it > because bad faith actors will pounce on the least important words while also missing my point completely? Yup, that too.? So yeah, > there's another reason we won't actually "talk" directly to each other: talking is more work effort than the reward. > > fwiw: if it's clear (as etiquette seems to have organically established) that the OP couldn't be bothered to write, I see no reason > we (the intended audience) should be bothered to read.? So maybe your unaugmented self is signalling safety and trust for this > community by investing the time/effort to write because you intend for us to read you.?? > My take on it is probably twofold. First how much do I care about the person writing, and second, how much do I care about the topic of discussion. The less I care about the person, the less attention the message will get in what ever channel it might come through. And likewise, the less I care about the subject, the less attention the message gets. This is then applied within three circles, my private world, business world and the rest. In terms of a potential AI communicating for us, I see it as a firewall blocking/dealing with annoying things such as salesmen, booking meetings, booking travel, reservations, getting through to support via phone/chats etc. Likewise I see these recipients to have their own AI:s, so we'd have AI:s negotiating/booking times with teach other, and we would only end up seeing the result. When it comes to the amount of messages I have two strategies for dealing with the quantity: 1. Carefully choosing my channels and not exposing my email address where it is not supposed to be. 2. Automated sorting and replying to some emails. I'm no super user, but my methods were able to successfully deal with 250-300 emails per day during my peak in the global IT industry. Best regards, Daniel From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Mar 13 18:36:11 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2024 11:36:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Terrible Costs of a Phone-Based Childhood In-Reply-To: <00ad01da7550$8339fce0$89adf6a0$@rainier66.com> References: <00ad01da7550$8339fce0$89adf6a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 13, 2024 at 7:14?AM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: snip > > BillK, a friend is trying to teach his daughter to drive. She is in her mid 20s. Interesting. I taught my kids (and their friends) how to drive when they could barely reach the petals. My shop was walking distance, so the car sat in the driveway most of the time. Many years later I found that the kids would drive it around the block and take great pains to park it exactly where it had been. > Having a very difficult time of it, so he hired a professional drivers education trainer to work with her one on one. The trainer had some most interesting comments, a guy who has been doing this for a living for 36 years. > He commented that there was a sudden and mysterious change that happened over about 5 years. He struggled to understand why his students came to him with so very little intuition for how a car works and how traffic works. They had to be taught the basics, stuff that 20 years ago all of them just knew. Now, a lot of students come in for first-time driver training when they are older, plenty of them in their 20s, whereas before they were almost all teenagers. > > Any ideas about why drivers in training were suddenly clueless? > > OK the trainer speculated that as soon as video games and phones came along, kids growing up being driven around by their parents stopped paying attention to how the driver was operating the car. They had better things to do. So... they reached driving age and had no idea what to do. As a thought, what is needed is a driving video game. Make it the only thing they can play while being driven around. Keith > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From spike at rainier66.com Wed Mar 13 18:41:50 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2024 11:41:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Terrible Costs of a Phone-Based Childhood In-Reply-To: References: <00ad01da7550$8339fce0$89adf6a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005e01da7576$1cf09310$56d1b930$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: Keith Henson >> ... stopped paying attention to how the driver was operating the car. They had better things to do. So... they reached driving age and had no idea what to do. >...As a thought, what is needed is a driving video game. Make it the only thing they can play while being driven around. Keith Keith the driving instructor cited that as another possible problem: they DO have a driving video game. Perhaps there are too many now who learned to drive playing Mario Kart. spike From atymes at gmail.com Wed Mar 13 19:16:16 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2024 12:16:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Communications a Moore's Law Phenomenon? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 9:50 AM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > So, if we put this on an exponential curve forward, it seems that at > some point, we won't have enough hours in the day to keep this curve > going. So what happens then? I postulate that AIs will communicate on > our behalf, and that this will reduce the amount of time we actually > spend talking to each other directly. On this list, in fact, I've seen > a number of us post AI missives already. I've done it myself. So, at > some point, we'll be communicating with so many people, so often, that > we won't even know it's happening, except in some sort of vague way... > like a CEO having an executive secretary. > Or a hive mind, of one human plus their AIs, where the hive is not in perfect communication with itself. Perhaps this might spur mind-machine communication in a way that could lead toward uploads (and incidentally enable technological telepathy between humans). > > This one was written without that assistance. Is it because you guys > aren't important enough? Or is it because I deem you so important that > you get the personalized treatment? > The latter, almost certainly. Your time is more valuable than your AIs'. I myself have yet to get that much value out of AIs. The ones I have tried, have largely either told me stuff I already knew, gave me general platitudes when I asked for very specific advice, or failed, either not doing as requested (such as ignoring strict word count requirements I explicitly passed along) or failing to function in the requested capacity (such as one attempted prediction series that was supposed to take in characteristics of the data and predict breaks from the trend but just predicted the last data point repeating, and others that failed to produce predictions at all). Maybe as they become better, I will get more use from them. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Mar 13 23:31:54 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2024 16:31:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] AI and Eliezer Message-ID: I have been perusing X recently to see what Anders Sandberg and Eliezer have been saying Eliezer Yudkowsky @ESYudkowsky ? 4h I don't feel like I know. Does anyone on the ground in DC feel like making a case? To be clear, the correct action is "Shut it down worldwide" and other actions don't matter; I'm not interested in who tries to regulate it more strictly or has nicer goals. ? 16m Replying to @ESYudkowsky Given the economic, political, and international realities, do you think "shut it down" is possible? If not, are there any other options? You might remember a story I posted on sl4 where a very well aligned AI caused humans to go extinct (though nobody died). Keith From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Mar 14 18:43:54 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2024 11:43:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Re: uploads etc. In-Reply-To: References: <0d0601da711e$179b1d10$46d15730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 14, 2024 at 11:01?AM John Clark wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 12, 2024 at 5:29?PM Keith Henson wrote: > > Keith, I like your story. I liked it a lot. You should make it easily available so people can read it online. https://www.terasemjournals.org/GNJournal/GN0202/henson1.html It's been up on Martine Rothblatt's Terasem site since 2007. Google for "clinic seed" will usually find it. I don't remember if they put in the illustrations or I did. The story is a chapter in a larger work where there are not many people left in the world. That chapter is to explain where the people went in a depopulated world. It's got a bunch of minor typos. I should ask Martine if I can fix them. > Or you could use ElevenLabs to convert it to audio and make it sound like it was recited by a professional actor with a voice that has some gravitas and gives whatever it reads some dramatic flair. My son in law is a professional voice actor. He did the voice over for Beamed Energy Bootstrapping https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEkZkINrJaA > Maybe then you could even sell it to audible. Possible I suppose. It has held up fairly well for a SF story that old. Keith > ll Eleven Labs > > John K Clark > > >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv0%3DjfoVZYhZTiEe3Rkap1wiY2YsNLjXwPvX6W3EXgBx_w%40mail.gmail.com. From pharos at gmail.com Thu Mar 14 21:22:21 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2024 21:22:21 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Mind Upload problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Mar 2024 at 17:05, Keith Henson wrote: > > I discussed this in The Clinic Seed and in my speculation article > "Transhumanism and the Human Expansion into Space: a Conflict with > Physics". Archived from the original on November 30, 2012. > > If we have million to one uploads by mid century, then by the end of > the century those people will have 50 million subjective years. > However, based on Tabby's star, I don't think people will run that > fast. The faster you run the smaller any communicating group has to > be due to light speed. The largest of those structures is 2.5 seconds > across, so they might be running no faster than we do. > _______________________________________________ I can't imagine that mind uploads that are running thousands or millions of times faster than humans would voluntarily give up those superpowers. Would they really say, 'Oh well, it was nice for a while, but let's go back to thinking at the pitifully slow human speed'? When uploads are living at those incredibly fast speeds, it effectively makes them immortal and freezes the outside world almost to a stop. Obviously they would need to plan ahead for security and to keep the computer systems running. But at their thinking speed, that would be like the timescale of humans planning billions of years ahead for the death of the Sun. Yes, light speed does mean smaller local groups communicating. But once uploads are immortal and living in wonderful virtual worlds, then large-scale planetary geoengineering will be forgotten. It would take uploaded intelligences millions of virtual years to do anything in the outside world. That's a possible explanation for the Fermi paradox. BillK From pharos at gmail.com Thu Mar 14 21:45:24 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2024 21:45:24 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Robot dog ANYmal can now do parkour and walk across rubble Message-ID: The quadrupedal robot ANYmal went back to school and has learned a lot. ETH Zurich researchers used machine learning to teach it new skills: the robot can now climb over obstacles and successfully negotiate pitfalls. Link includes 1 min. video. BillK From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Mar 15 00:27:22 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2024 17:27:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Mind Upload problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 14, 2024 at 2:24?PM BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Wed, 13 Mar 2024 at 17:05, Keith Henson wrote: > > > > I discussed this in The Clinic Seed and in my speculation article > > "Transhumanism and the Human Expansion into Space: a Conflict with > > Physics". Archived from the original on November 30, 2012. > > > > If we have million to one uploads by mid century, then by the end of > > the century those people will have 50 million subjective years. > > However, based on Tabby's star, I don't think people will run that > > fast. The faster you run the smaller any communicating group has to > > be due to light speed. The largest of those structures is 2.5 seconds > > across, so they might be running no faster than we do. > > _______________________________________________ > > > I can't imagine that mind uploads that are running thousands or > millions of times faster than humans would voluntarily give up those > superpowers. If humans maintain being social, then there is a problem with a community getting too large, communication gets very slow. There is also the problem that thinking fast takes power and generates a lot of waste heat. I confingered the community as a 300 meter sphere sunk in the deep ocean for cooling. > Would they really say, 'Oh well, it was nice for a while, > but let's go back to thinking at the pitifully slow human speed'? Depends. Thinking really fast would not be an asset if you were isolated > When uploads are living at those incredibly fast speeds, it effectively > makes them immortal and freezes the outside world almost to a stop. > Obviously they would need to plan ahead for security and to keep the > computer systems running. But at their thinking speed, that would be > like the timescale of humans planning billions of years ahead for the > death of the Sun. > Yes, light speed does mean smaller local groups communicating. But > once uploads are immortal and living in wonderful virtual worlds, then > large-scale planetary geoengineering will be forgotten. If what we see at Tabby's star are alien megastructures, that's getting close to planetary geoengineering. The largest light blocking structure so fare is over 400 times the area of the earth and out about 7 AU. I posted the math analysis some months ago. > It would take > uploaded intelligences millions of virtual years to do anything in the > outside world. > That's a possible explanation for the Fermi paradox. Perhaps. The speed of light might also be an explanation/ Keith > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 15 13:35:23 2024 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2024 08:35:23 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Mind Upload problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I can see thinking faster can help with calculations, but we have far faster computers for those problems. I cannot see how thinking faster can help with social or emotional problems. Just as we are, thinking faster can lead to hasty decisions. bill w On Thu, Mar 14, 2024 at 4:25?PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, 13 Mar 2024 at 17:05, Keith Henson wrote: > > > > I discussed this in The Clinic Seed and in my speculation article > > "Transhumanism and the Human Expansion into Space: a Conflict with > > Physics". Archived from the original on November 30, 2012. > > > > If we have million to one uploads by mid century, then by the end of > > the century those people will have 50 million subjective years. > > However, based on Tabby's star, I don't think people will run that > > fast. The faster you run the smaller any communicating group has to > > be due to light speed. The largest of those structures is 2.5 seconds > > across, so they might be running no faster than we do. > > _______________________________________________ > > > I can't imagine that mind uploads that are running thousands or > millions of times faster than humans would voluntarily give up those > superpowers. Would they really say, 'Oh well, it was nice for a while, > but let's go back to thinking at the pitifully slow human speed'? > When uploads are living at those incredibly fast speeds, it effectively > makes them immortal and freezes the outside world almost to a stop. > Obviously they would need to plan ahead for security and to keep the > computer systems running. But at their thinking speed, that would be > like the timescale of humans planning billions of years ahead for the > death of the Sun. > Yes, light speed does mean smaller local groups communicating. But > once uploads are immortal and living in wonderful virtual worlds, then > large-scale planetary geoengineering will be forgotten. It would take > uploaded intelligences millions of virtual years to do anything in the > outside world. > That's a possible explanation for the Fermi paradox. > > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Mar 15 14:12:02 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2024 14:12:02 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Mind Upload problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Mar 2024 at 13:38, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > I can see thinking faster can help with calculations, but we have far faster computers for those problems. I cannot see how thinking faster can help with social or emotional problems. Just as we are, thinking faster can lead to hasty decisions. bill w > _______________________________________________ That's true - for the present. But this is speculation about a future time when humans plus AGI super-intelligences have enough knowledge and technical ability to upload complete human personalities into a computing substrate. (i.e. It's all airy-fairy nonsense - but interesting). :) As you say, it would be very dangerous to upload humans with personality problems into super-speed computers. I think there would have to be some correction system in the process. Either during the upload or in the virtual world, where more advanced intelligences know how to remove errors in uploaded human personalities. BillK From postmowoods at gmail.com Fri Mar 15 16:13:25 2024 From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2024 10:13:25 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Communications a Moore's Law Phenomenon? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 13, 2024 at 11:46?AM Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat wrote: > I have also imagined that our AI exo-self will act as agents on our behalf at volumes and speeds that we > currently cannot comprehend. It's not hard to imagine that at all. > I find myself more and more simply not commenting on facebook's content - is it because the content is garbage? Perhaps some. Is it because bad faith actors will pounce on the least important words while also missing my point completely? Yup, that too. So yeah, there's another reason we won't actually "talk" directly to each other: talking is more work effort than the reward. > FB has never been high on my list of trusted sources of information. For a while I was into Instagram, but when they allowed my account to be stolen and didn't help me recover it, I gave up on them. Youtube is where I spend the majority of my social media time at the moment. > fwiw: if it's clear (as etiquette seems to have organically established) that the > OP couldn't be bothered to write, I see no reason we (the intended audience) > should be bothered to read. So maybe your unaugmented self is signalling safety > and trust for this community by investing the time/effort to write because you intend > for us to read you. Just so. -Kelly From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 15 16:25:09 2024 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2024 11:25:09 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Mind Upload problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Maybe you could create a perfect mind, but with no memories or personality. Those would come from the upload. Suppose we consider the fundamental attributional error: assuming that some behavior of the other person reflects their basic personality, whereas it was only a situational thing. OK, so program against that. But how much better and longer do you have to observe a person before you can accept that such behavior is rather fixed and permanent? There is no perfect solution to this. And sometimes biases, such as self-confidence being too high, can actually lead to winning performances. And some depressed people see the world more clearly than the rest of us (a finding that shocked me when I saw it years ago.) I can see a lot of dithering about such as this. bill w On Fri, Mar 15, 2024 at 9:14?AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, 15 Mar 2024 at 13:38, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > I can see thinking faster can help with calculations, but we have far > faster computers for those problems. I cannot see how thinking faster can > help with social or emotional problems. Just as we are, thinking faster > can lead to hasty decisions. bill w > > _______________________________________________ > > > That's true - for the present. But this is speculation about a future > time when humans plus AGI super-intelligences have enough knowledge > and technical ability to upload complete human personalities into a > computing substrate. > (i.e. It's all airy-fairy nonsense - but interesting). :) > > As you say, it would be very dangerous to upload humans with > personality problems into super-speed computers. I think there would > have to be some correction system in the process. Either during the > upload or in the virtual world, where more advanced intelligences know > how to remove errors in uploaded human personalities. > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Mar 15 20:34:50 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2024 13:34:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Mind Upload problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 15, 2024 at 6:37?AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > I can see thinking faster can help with calculations, but we have far faster computers for those problems. I cannot see how thinking faster can help with social "The problem is uploaded humans speeding up. Human brains are asynchronous, but, given reaction times, we can impute an equivalent clock rate of ~200 Hz. Which means a human brain (or brain equivalent) running in moderately fast hardware could run a million times faster. (200 MHz is not fast hardware.) "You might ask, ?Why would humans do such a silly thing?? Because intelligence is a large factor in sexual attraction. This was probably established in the Stone Age. Of course, intelligence is valuable outside of sexual attraction, being correlated with many other personality and life-history traits and is especially valued by transhumanists. One aspect of being smart is thinking fast, or at least thinking faster than the person you are trying to impress. That leads at once to a runaway ?Red Queen? situation where, when we can run our thinking faster, we would rapidly push the computational speed to the limit, whatever it is." [from http://hplusmagazine.com/2012/04/12/transhumanism-and-the-human-expansion-into-space-a-conflict-with-physics/] Keith or emotional problems. Just as we are, thinking faster can lead to hasty decisions. bill w > On Thu, Mar 14, 2024 at 4:25?PM BillK via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> On Wed, 13 Mar 2024 at 17:05, Keith Henson wrote: >> > >> > I discussed this in The Clinic Seed and in my speculation article >> > "Transhumanism and the Human Expansion into Space: a Conflict with >> > Physics". Archived from the original on November 30, 2012. >> > >> > If we have million to one uploads by mid century, then by the end of >> > the century those people will have 50 million subjective years. >> > However, based on Tabby's star, I don't think people will run that >> > fast. The faster you run the smaller any communicating group has to >> > be due to light speed. The largest of those structures is 2.5 seconds >> > across, so they might be running no faster than we do. >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> >> I can't imagine that mind uploads that are running thousands or >> millions of times faster than humans would voluntarily give up those >> superpowers. Would they really say, 'Oh well, it was nice for a while, >> but let's go back to thinking at the pitifully slow human speed'? >> When uploads are living at those incredibly fast speeds, it effectively >> makes them immortal and freezes the outside world almost to a stop. >> Obviously they would need to plan ahead for security and to keep the >> computer systems running. But at their thinking speed, that would be >> like the timescale of humans planning billions of years ahead for the >> death of the Sun. >> Yes, light speed does mean smaller local groups communicating. But >> once uploads are immortal and living in wonderful virtual worlds, then >> large-scale planetary geoengineering will be forgotten. It would take >> uploaded intelligences millions of virtual years to do anything in the >> outside world. >> That's a possible explanation for the Fermi paradox. >> >> >> BillK >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Mar 15 20:43:00 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2024 13:43:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Mind Upload problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 15, 2024 at 7:14?AM BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > snip > > As you say, it would be very dangerous to upload humans with > personality problems into super-speed computers. One route that used to be discussed to AI was to base the AI on a human brain. I argued that this was a very bad ides because humans have evolved psychological traits (for war) that would be a disaster in a powerful AI. My argument (over ten years ago) might have had influence, in any case this route to an AI is not much discussed now. > I think there would > have to be some correction system in the process. Either during the > upload or in the virtual world, where more advanced intelligences know > how to remove errors in uploaded human personalities. This is something that requires great caution. Minsky had much to say about it. Keith > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From pharos at gmail.com Sun Mar 17 12:49:27 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2024 12:49:27 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Latest Claude AI impresses theoretical quantum physicist Message-ID: Kevin Fischer had a chat to Claude AI for a couple of hours last night. At the end of their discussion, Claude's response overwhelmed him. It also impresses me. It really does seem that Claude is doing more than just producing appropriate word-salad. BillK See below: Original Twitter link: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: respone.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 58575 bytes Desc: not available URL: From avant at sollegro.com Sun Mar 17 14:32:40 2024 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2024 07:32:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Russian Election Message-ID: <7ade64f15eae267655bad4627bd9df5e@sollegro.com> After seeing this video, I am grateful that the American system with recounts, hanging chads, voting machines, accusations of fraud, superdelegates, vicious partisanship, and tired old candidates still works as well as it does. This is precisely why every adult American should own a firearm. Stuart LaForge https://04533034747756402167.googlegroups.com/attach/3599d55643690/m2-res_1080p.mp4?part=0.1&view=1&vt=ANaJVrG7Qmbd6trGY_mANlArV7xJCvYhaBCmQCGzs4o8FULKOW2fQuOihkNA6nGqxDViNQaQ5YaXEJW8fWkbX0rC4-CQW-25ksN9CyXgXT69nTGZEIpEXGs From avant at sollegro.com Sun Mar 17 19:05:29 2024 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2024 12:05:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Russian Election In-Reply-To: <7ade64f15eae267655bad4627bd9df5e@sollegro.com> References: <7ade64f15eae267655bad4627bd9df5e@sollegro.com> Message-ID: <54d241723a153dfd543e7c111f370e0e@sollegro.com> Eh, nevermind. Apparently this video is staged Ukrainian propaganda. Sotty to waste you tytime. Stuart LaForge On 2024-03-17 07:32, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote: > After seeing this video, I am grateful that the American system with > recounts, hanging chads, voting machines, accusations of fraud, > superdelegates, vicious partisanship, and tired old candidates still > works as well as it does. This is precisely why every adult American > should own a firearm. > > Stuart LaForge > > https://04533034747756402167.googlegroups.com/attach/3599d55643690/m2-res_1080p.mp4?part=0.1&view=1&vt=ANaJVrG7Qmbd6trGY_mANlArV7xJCvYhaBCmQCGzs4o8FULKOW2fQuOihkNA6nGqxDViNQaQ5YaXEJW8fWkbX0rC4-CQW-25ksN9CyXgXT69nTGZEIpEXGs > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From postmowoods at gmail.com Mon Mar 18 13:33:32 2024 From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2024 07:33:32 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Communications a Moore's Law Phenomenon? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 13, 2024 at 12:11?PM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > On Wed, 13 Mar 2024, Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 12:50 PM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat wrote: > > > My take on it is probably twofold. First how much do I care about the > person writing, and second, how much do I care about the topic of > discussion. > > The less I care about the person, the less attention the message will > get in what ever channel it might come through. And likewise, the less I > care about the subject, the less attention the message gets. > > This is then applied within three circles, my private world, business > world and the rest. This circle of concerns model that begins at intimates, then acquaintances and finally strangers is pretty familiar. Perhaps our AI agents will bring our direct attention selectively to those we most care for or have responsibility for. > In terms of a potential AI communicating for us, I see it as a firewall > blocking/dealing with annoying things such as salesmen, booking > meetings, booking travel, reservations, getting through to support via > phone/chats etc. And yet, talking to salespeople can be helpful to your endeavors, if they turn out to have something we actually need. An AI agent could have that conversation for us, assumedly with the AIs working for the salesmen. I kind of like that because it means that companies that produce good products, but aren't good at more traditional marketing will be more likely to get my attention. If the best products end up getting my business instead of the companies that are best at marketing, then that seems like it would lubricate the economy like a higher quality oil would lubricate an engine better. > Likewise I see these recipients to have their own AI:s, so we'd have > AI:s negotiating/booking times with teach other, and we would only end > up seeing the result. Yes, just so. > When it comes to the amount of messages I have two strategies for > dealing with the quantity: > > 1. Carefully choosing my channels and not exposing my email address > where it is not supposed to be. > > 2. Automated sorting and replying to some emails. > > I'm no super user, but my methods were able to successfully deal with > 250-300 emails per day during my peak in the global IT industry. So back around 2003, I created a company called Habit 3 software (after the third Habit of Steven Covey's famous 7, namely, "Put first things first.") that intended to create an email client that sorted email in order of importance. I got it working fairly well using what passed for AI at the time... multiple heuristics... but eventually abandoned the project because gmail looked like it might go in that direction. It never did, and I regret abandoning the project now. Anyway, within that program, I also had a concept of "Roles" so that if you were in the "Role" of "scoutmaster", scout's emails would bubble to the top, but if you were in the Role of "Dad" then your kid's emails would bubble to the top. The idea was to set a specific amount of time on each role each day, and address the most important things to that role first, and keep track of what kind of time was spent on each role, so that you could properly prioritize your time. Having an AI automatically answer low priority emails in such a system would be a nice addition these days. I was talked out of marketing this product to work on another project that was even cooler. That particular project didn't go terribly well, even though it would still be cool today. The government ruins almost as many things as religion. -Kelly From efc at swisscows.email Mon Mar 18 13:49:05 2024 From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2024 14:49:05 +0100 (CET) Subject: [ExI] Communications a Moore's Law Phenomenon? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <051a9185-08f0-d12b-97b6-96cdec939653@swisscows.email> Hello Kelly, On Mon, 18 Mar 2024, Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat wrote: > On Wed, Mar 13, 2024 at 12:11?PM efc--- via extropy-chat > wrote: >> On Wed, 13 Mar 2024, Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat wrote: >> > On Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 12:50 PM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat wrote: >> > >> My take on it is probably twofold. First how much do I care about the >> person writing, and second, how much do I care about the topic of >> discussion. >> >> The less I care about the person, the less attention the message will >> get in what ever channel it might come through. And likewise, the less I >> care about the subject, the less attention the message gets. >> >> This is then applied within three circles, my private world, business >> world and the rest. > > This circle of concerns model that begins at intimates, then > acquaintances and finally strangers is pretty familiar. Perhaps our AI > agents will bring our direct attention selectively to those we most > care for or have responsibility for. Yes, wouldn't that be something! An AI that can't reach me, reaches out to my wife with the message "Hey, this would be great for your husband!" and then she tells me. Quite a trojan horse! ;) > >> In terms of a potential AI communicating for us, I see it as a firewall >> blocking/dealing with annoying things such as salesmen, booking >> meetings, booking travel, reservations, getting through to support via >> phone/chats etc. > > And yet, talking to salespeople can be helpful to your endeavors, if > they turn out to have something we actually need. An AI agent could Sadly those sales people are so few and far in between that I'll take the loss of them. Granted, there are a few sales people who are brilliant, but I am sure they will find other ways of interacting with me. Most sales people I meet are just annoying. But yes, you are right, the ones who are good are worth their weight in gold. > have that conversation for us, assumedly with the AIs working for the > salesmen. I kind of like that because it means that companies that > produce good products, but aren't good at more traditional marketing > will be more likely to get my attention. If the best products end up > getting my business instead of the companies that are best at > marketing, then that seems like it would lubricate the economy like a > higher quality oil would lubricate an engine better. True. From an ideal point of view that would definitely be the case. Today, I hear about those companies by word of mouth and at industry networking events. Very seldom, if ever, did I pick up a new product or company through regular commercials. On the other hand, I block all ads online, so the ads that do slip through are product placements in blogs, mailinglists, friends etc. >> Likewise I see these recipients to have their own AI:s, so we'd have >> AI:s negotiating/booking times with teach other, and we would only end >> up seeing the result. > > Yes, just so. That would be the day! Imagine just telling your AI, I want this trip, my wife wants to see these things, the maximum cost is this much, and here's when we want to travel, and have a service that's good enough, to give you peace of mind enough, to trust it and just get a finished trip back. >> When it comes to the amount of messages I have two strategies for >> dealing with the quantity: >> >> 1. Carefully choosing my channels and not exposing my email address >> where it is not supposed to be. >> >> 2. Automated sorting and replying to some emails. >> >> I'm no super user, but my methods were able to successfully deal with >> 250-300 emails per day during my peak in the global IT industry. > > So back around 2003, I created a company called Habit 3 software > (after the third Habit of Steven Covey's famous 7, namely, "Put first > things first.") that intended to create an email client that sorted > email in order of importance. I got it working fairly well using what > passed for AI at the time... multiple heuristics... but eventually > abandoned the project because gmail looked like it might go in that > direction. It never did, and I regret abandoning the project now. > Anyway, within that program, I also had a concept of "Roles" so that > if you were in the "Role" of "scoutmaster", scout's emails would Interesting. Roles would be equivalent to what I have different email accounts for. > bubble to the top, but if you were in the Role of "Dad" then your > kid's emails would bubble to the top. The idea was to set a specific > amount of time on each role each day, and address the most important > things to that role first, and keep track of what kind of time was > spent on each role, so that you could properly prioritize your time. > Having an AI automatically answer low priority emails in such a system I no longer get 250-300 emails per day, so today I do glance through mail manually when deciding which ones to work on and reply to first. But nice concept though, not even having to do that. =) > would be a nice addition these days. I was talked out of marketing > this product to work on another project that was even cooler. That > particular project didn't go terribly well, even though it would still > be cool today. The government ruins almost as many things as religion. Of course... hence the age old saying "we're from the government and we're here to help"... shudder! Best regards, Daniel > -Kelly > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From pharos at gmail.com Mon Mar 18 23:44:17 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2024 23:44:17 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Communications a Moore's Law Phenomenon? In-Reply-To: <051a9185-08f0-d12b-97b6-96cdec939653@swisscows.email> References: <051a9185-08f0-d12b-97b6-96cdec939653@swisscows.email> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Mar 2024 at 13:52, efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > > > I no longer get 250-300 emails per day, so today I do glance through > mail manually when deciding which ones to work on and reply to first. > But nice concept though, not even having to do that. =) > > Best regards, > Daniel > _______________________________________________ It might be worthwhile doing a search for extensions for your browser. Since AI arrived, extensions have appeared that add AI assistants in your browser to help with writing and processing emails. Search for "ai email assistant". Firefox has extensions like Ellie, Superemail, Voil?, etc Chrome has Compose AI, and so on. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Tue Mar 19 01:03:41 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2024 18:03:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] we are doomed. but this is still wicked cool Message-ID: <006601da7999$48f23140$dad693c0$@rainier66.com> I have long thought AI must be given some means of motoring about and observing stuff: https://twitter.com/DrJimFan/status/1769860044324319658?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw% 7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1769860044324319658%7Ctwgr%5E133e1dfb40c7cb b057158920ef55d32f2b9b7635%7Ctwcon%5Es1_ &ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.foxbusiness.com%2Ftechnology%2Fnvidia-unveils-rob ots-powered-super-computer-ai-take-worlds-heavy-industries Kewalllll. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From efc at swisscows.email Tue Mar 19 09:29:13 2024 From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2024 10:29:13 +0100 (CET) Subject: [ExI] Communications a Moore's Law Phenomenon? In-Reply-To: References: <051a9185-08f0-d12b-97b6-96cdec939653@swisscows.email> Message-ID: <6962fccb-9107-107f-05a4-bbd6e80631bd@swisscows.email> On Mon, 18 Mar 2024, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > On Mon, 18 Mar 2024 at 13:52, efc--- via extropy-chat > wrote: >> > >> >> I no longer get 250-300 emails per day, so today I do glance through >> mail manually when deciding which ones to work on and reply to first. >> But nice concept though, not even having to do that. =) >> >> Best regards, >> Daniel >> _______________________________________________ > > > It might be worthwhile doing a search for extensions for your browser. > Since AI arrived, extensions have appeared that add AI assistants in > your browser to help with writing and processing emails. > Search for "ai email assistant". > Firefox has extensions like Ellie, Superemail, Voil?, etc > Chrome has Compose AI, and so on. Thank you for the suggestion Bill, but I do not use my web browser for email. I use the secret, superior and very refined email client alpine in the terminal. ;) When it comes to an AI:s level of writing it is still not good enough for me to be able to use that, and since I type quite fast, and since I would have to read what the AI came up with (I don't quite trust them yet) I think the time savings will not be that big. But if development continues at the same pace I would think that this could be a good option in one or two years. Best regards, Daniel > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From spike at rainier66.com Tue Mar 19 21:44:59 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2024 14:44:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] worship at the holy schlamoly shrine Message-ID: <009801da7a46$b14305f0$13c911d0$@rainier66.com> Nvidea has a market cap this month of 2.23 trillion dollars, moving it ahead of Saudi Aramco as the third highest market cap company in all zee vorld. I had breakfast at the Denny's where it started in 2001, took a reverent moment to genuflect before the holy schlamoly shrine to raging technology and shameless capitalism. Kewalll! Now of course these Nvidea chips are going into humanoid robots, a real life K-2SO, we are all cooked. But still. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6907 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 15608 bytes Desc: not available URL: From efc at swisscows.email Tue Mar 19 21:52:28 2024 From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2024 22:52:28 +0100 (CET) Subject: [ExI] worship at the holy schlamoly shrine In-Reply-To: <009801da7a46$b14305f0$13c911d0$@rainier66.com> References: <009801da7a46$b14305f0$13c911d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Fascinating! Thank you very much for sharing! =) Best regards, Daniel On Tue, 19 Mar 2024, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > > Nvidea has a market cap this month of 2.23 trillion dollars, moving it ahead of Saudi Aramco as the third highest market cap company > in all zee vorld. > > ? > > I had breakfast at the Denny?s where it started in 2001, took a reverent moment to genuflect before the holy schlamoly shrine to > raging technology and shameless capitalism. > > ? > > ? > > [IMAGE] > > ? > > [IMAGE] > > ? > > Kewalll! > > ? > > Now of course these Nvidea chips are going into humanoid robots, a real life K-2SO, we are all cooked.? But still. > > ? > > spike > > > From spike at rainier66.com Tue Mar 19 23:56:14 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2024 16:56:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] worship at the holy schlamoly shrine In-Reply-To: <009801da7a46$b14305f0$13c911d0$@rainier66.com> References: <009801da7a46$b14305f0$13c911d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001901da7a59$07506c00$15f14400$@rainier66.com> The B200 is here: https://www.theverge.com/2024/3/18/24105157/nvidia-blackwell-gpu-b200-ai K-2SO is on the horizon. I have wanted one of those guys since I saw him 8 yrs ago. How cool is that: a wisecracking robot. spike From: spike at rainier66.com Sent: Tuesday, 19 March, 2024 2:45 PM To: 'ExI chat list' Cc: spike at rainier66.com Subject: worship at the holy schlamoly shrine Nvidea has a market cap this month of 2.23 trillion dollars, moving it ahead of Saudi Aramco as the third highest market cap company in all zee vorld. I had breakfast at the Denny's where it started in 2001, took a reverent moment to genuflect before the holy schlamoly shrine to raging technology and shameless capitalism. Kewalll! Now of course these Nvidea chips are going into humanoid robots, a real life K-2SO, we are all cooked. But still. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2808 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7245 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sjatkins at protonmail.com Wed Mar 20 00:03:22 2024 From: sjatkins at protonmail.com (Samantha) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2024 00:03:22 +0000 Subject: [ExI] AI and Eliezer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0472a64c-816d-462e-a64e-8d62fcc3bc33@protonmail.com> Oh my.? Eliezer the luddite.??? I have been off the opinion for over two decades that there is no way for humanity to continue at the current level, much less transcend this level, without massively more effective intelligence deployed than today whether human or artificial. If this is so then AGI is *essential* to human flourishing. Also "shut it down" means shutting down and controlling the entire internet at this point.? The work has gone well outside a few large tech companies.? It is vibrantly alive and being advanced in the open source world.? Surely Eliezer doesn't believe humanity could survive the level of tyranny it would actually take to "shut it down"? - samantha On 3/13/24 17:31, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > I have been perusing X recently to see what Anders Sandberg and > Eliezer have been saying > > Eliezer Yudkowsky > @ESYudkowsky > ? > 4h > I don't feel like I know. Does anyone on the ground in DC feel like > making a case? To be clear, the correct action is "Shut it down > worldwide" and other actions don't matter; I'm not interested in who > tries to regulate it more strictly or has nicer goals. > > ? > 16m > Replying to > @ESYudkowsky > Given the economic, political, and international realities, do you > think "shut it down" is possible? If not, are there any other options? > You might remember a story I posted on sl4 where a very well aligned > AI caused humans to go extinct (though nobody died). > > > Keith > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 249 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Wed Mar 20 00:40:10 2024 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2024 20:40:10 -0400 Subject: [ExI] AI and Eliezer In-Reply-To: <0472a64c-816d-462e-a64e-8d62fcc3bc33@protonmail.com> References: <0472a64c-816d-462e-a64e-8d62fcc3bc33@protonmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 19, 2024, 8:05 PM Samantha via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > world. Surely Eliezer doesn't believe humanity could survive the level > of tyranny it would actually take to "shut it down"? > If he is half as smart as his sycophants tell us he is, he probably doesn't believe AI can be slowed much less stopped. I suspect it's just more of Eliezer's marketing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Mar 20 01:10:06 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2024 18:10:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] AI and Eliezer In-Reply-To: <0472a64c-816d-462e-a64e-8d62fcc3bc33@protonmail.com> References: <0472a64c-816d-462e-a64e-8d62fcc3bc33@protonmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 19, 2024 at 5:04?PM Samantha via extropy-chat wrote: > > Oh my. Eliezer the luddite. I have been off the opinion for over two > decades that there is no way for humanity to continue at the current > level, much less transcend this level, without massively more effective > intelligence deployed than today whether human or artificial. > > If this is so then AGI is *essential* to human flourishing. I agree. > Also "shut it down" means shutting down and controlling the entire > internet at this point. The work has gone well outside a few large tech > companies. It is vibrantly alive and being advanced in the open source > world. Surely Eliezer doesn't believe humanity could survive the level > of tyranny it would actually take to "shut it down"? A point I don't think Eliezer considers is that humans are dangerous Humans are selected for wars, from circulating xenophobic memes when it looks like resources will get tight to irrational optimism about winning wars. At least AIs have not been selected for such traits. Keith > - samantha > > On 3/13/24 17:31, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > > I have been perusing X recently to see what Anders Sandberg and > > Eliezer have been saying > > > > Eliezer Yudkowsky > > @ESYudkowsky > > ? > > 4h > > I don't feel like I know. Does anyone on the ground in DC feel like > > making a case? To be clear, the correct action is "Shut it down > > worldwide" and other actions don't matter; I'm not interested in who > > tries to regulate it more strictly or has nicer goals. > > > > ? > > 16m > > Replying to > > @ESYudkowsky > > Given the economic, political, and international realities, do you > > think "shut it down" is possible? If not, are there any other options? > > You might remember a story I posted on sl4 where a very well aligned > > AI caused humans to go extinct (though nobody died). > > > > > > Keith > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From msd001 at gmail.com Wed Mar 20 01:31:49 2024 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2024 21:31:49 -0400 Subject: [ExI] AI and Eliezer In-Reply-To: References: <0472a64c-816d-462e-a64e-8d62fcc3bc33@protonmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 19, 2024, 9:13 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > A point I don't think Eliezer considers is that humans are dangerous > Humans are selected for wars, from circulating xenophobic memes when > it looks like resources will get tight to irrational optimism about > winning wars. > > At least AIs have not been selected for such traits. > Do you think majority humans will react to AI in their daily lives as 'stealing jobs' (an artificial scarcity resource) except instead of stealing undocumented workers' work, AI is going to take most of the so-called knowledge work. Doctors will be gone before nurses, but soon after the patients will also adjust to bedside carebots. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Mar 20 04:48:46 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2024 21:48:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] AI and Eliezer In-Reply-To: References: <0472a64c-816d-462e-a64e-8d62fcc3bc33@protonmail.com> Message-ID: <006601da7a81$e4d22c80$ae768580$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat ... >...A point I don't think Eliezer considers is that humans are dangerous. Humans are selected for wars, from circulating xenophobic memes when it looks like resources will get tight to irrational optimism about winning wars. At least AIs have not been selected for such traits. Keith Tis true, tragically so. Even if we humans understand evolutionary psychology, once we realize we are biologically programmed for war, we cannot turn off that programming. We will still do all the self-destructive behaviors required to destroy whoever is attacking us. AI is likely to destroy us, but it may be our best realistic hope of punching thru the great filter which apparently nukes every other intelligent life form. spike From giulio at gmail.com Wed Mar 20 06:09:06 2024 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2024 07:09:06 +0100 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] AI and Eliezer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 14, 2024 at 12:32?AM Keith Henson wrote: > > I have been perusing X recently to see what Anders Sandberg and > Eliezer have been saying > Good to see you on X! Followed you. > Eliezer Yudkowsky > @ESYudkowsky > ? > 4h > I don't feel like I know. Does anyone on the ground in DC feel like > making a case? To be clear, the correct action is "Shut it down > worldwide" and other actions don't matter; I'm not interested in who > tries to regulate it more strictly or has nicer goals. > > ? > 16m > Replying to > @ESYudkowsky > Given the economic, political, and international realities, do you > think "shut it down" is possible? If not, are there any other options? > You might remember a story I posted on sl4 where a very well aligned > AI caused humans to go extinct (though nobody died). > > > Keith > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAPiwVB5oAZq43zRwFFPnvZO2e8Gg6Duo_-NWyH20GHTVnSiwZw%40mail.gmail.com. From efc at swisscows.email Wed Mar 20 08:59:23 2024 From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2024 09:59:23 +0100 (CET) Subject: [ExI] AI and Eliezer In-Reply-To: <0472a64c-816d-462e-a64e-8d62fcc3bc33@protonmail.com> References: <0472a64c-816d-462e-a64e-8d62fcc3bc33@protonmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Mar 2024, Samantha via extropy-chat wrote: > Oh my.? Eliezer the luddite.??? I have been off the opinion for over two > decades that there is no way for humanity to continue at the current level, > much less transcend this level, without massively more effective intelligence > deployed than today whether human or artificial. > > If this is so then AGI is *essential* to human flourishing. > > Also "shut it down" means shutting down and controlling the entire internet > at this point.? The work has gone well outside a few large tech companies.? > It is vibrantly alive and being advanced in the open source world.? Surely > Eliezer doesn't believe humanity could survive the level of tyranny it would > actually take to "shut it down"? The problem with Eliezer is that he deals with infinite threats. If you deal with infinite threats every action is excusable and preferable in order to avoid infinite evil. Just look at the more extreme climate change activists, they deal with infinite threats (everyone will die tomorrow) and therefore anything is allowed. Another classic is Pascals wager. Assign infinite good and infinite bad, and all calculation, nuance and rationality goes out the window. Best regards, Daniel > - samantha > > On 3/13/24 17:31, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: >> I have been perusing X recently to see what Anders Sandberg and >> Eliezer have been saying >> >> Eliezer Yudkowsky >> @ESYudkowsky >> ? >> 4h >> I don't feel like I know. Does anyone on the ground in DC feel like >> making a case? To be clear, the correct action is "Shut it down >> worldwide" and other actions don't matter; I'm not interested in who >> tries to regulate it more strictly or has nicer goals. >> >> ? >> 16m >> Replying to >> @ESYudkowsky >> Given the economic, political, and international realities, do you >> think "shut it down" is possible? If not, are there any other options? >> You might remember a story I posted on sl4 where a very well aligned >> AI caused humans to go extinct (though nobody died). >> >> >> Keith >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From pharos at gmail.com Wed Mar 20 11:38:18 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2024 11:38:18 +0000 Subject: [ExI] we are doomed. but this is still wicked cool In-Reply-To: <006601da7999$48f23140$dad693c0$@rainier66.com> References: <006601da7999$48f23140$dad693c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Mar 2024 at 01:06, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > I have long thought AI must be given some means of motoring about and observing stuff: > > https://twitter.com/DrJimFan/status/1769860044324319658?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1769860044324319658%7Ctwgr%5E133e1dfb40c7cbb057158920ef55d32f2b9b7635%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.foxbusiness.com%2Ftechnology%2Fnvidia-unveils-robots-powered-super-computer-ai-take-worlds-heavy-industries > > Kewalllll? > > spike > _______________________________________________ Watch these short videos of robots happily working away, etc. >From this article - Video: 1X shows wild month-on-month acceleration in humanoid autonomy By Loz Blain March 19, 2024 Quote: A month ago, we were impressed by these robots being able to pick things up, put them in the right spot, open doors and charge themselves. But new video released hours ago makes it clear that autonomous humanoid work is starting to accelerate like mad. 3 min. Now, take a look at 1X's March update video, less than six weeks later. 2 min. Impressive! BillK From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Mar 20 15:24:50 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2024 08:24:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] AI and Eliezer In-Reply-To: References: <0472a64c-816d-462e-a64e-8d62fcc3bc33@protonmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 19, 2024 at 6:32?PM Mike Dougherty wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 19, 2024, 9:13 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> A point I don't think Eliezer considers is that humans are dangerous >> Humans are selected for wars, from circulating xenophobic memes when >> it looks like resources will get tight to irrational optimism about >> winning wars. >> >> At least AIs have not been selected for such traits. > > Do you think majority humans will react to AI in their daily lives as 'stealing jobs' (an artificial scarcity resource) except instead of stealing undocumented workers' work, AI is going to take most of the so-called knowledge work. Doctors will be gone before nurses, but soon after the patients will also adjust to bedside carebots. You are not thinking of nanotech medicine which can cure anything while you are walking around. From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Mar 20 15:31:44 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2024 08:31:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] AI and Eliezer In-Reply-To: <006601da7a81$e4d22c80$ae768580$@rainier66.com> References: <0472a64c-816d-462e-a64e-8d62fcc3bc33@protonmail.com> <006601da7a81$e4d22c80$ae768580$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 19, 2024 at 9:48?PM wrote: > snip > Tis true, tragically so. Even if we humans understand evolutionary psychology, once we realize we are biologically programmed for war, we cannot turn off that programming. We will still do all the self-destructive behaviors required to destroy whoever is attacking us. We cannot turn off the programming, but we can keep it from being activated. The case of the IRA shows that war can be averted and the run up reversed by improving economic conditions. > AI is likely to destroy us, but it may be our best realistic hope of punching thru the great filter which apparently nukes every other intelligent life form. If what we see at Tabby's star is big data centers, then they made it through the filter. Keith > spike > > From spike at rainier66.com Wed Mar 20 15:34:50 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2024 08:34:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] AI and Eliezer In-Reply-To: References: <0472a64c-816d-462e-a64e-8d62fcc3bc33@protonmail.com> Message-ID: <009701da7adc$266c0c60$73442520$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat ... > >>... Do you think majority humans will react to AI in their daily lives as 'stealing jobs' (an artificial scarcity resource) except instead of stealing undocumented workers' work, AI is going to take most of the so-called knowledge work. Doctors will be gone before nurses, but soon after the patients will also adjust to bedside carebots. >...You are not thinking of nanotech medicine which can cure anything while you are walking around. _______________________________________________ Keith, I don't expect that level of medicine to take place at all without advanced AI. We see how slowly our therapeutic chemicals are discovered and utilized by the medical industry, being as it is driven by research by biological intelligence. Regarding AI not evolving human traits, a legitimate concern among those who study the risks is the observation that the very first use of a newly-discovered technology is its utility in warfare. We saw the catastrophic rollout of Google's Gemini, where the AI was infused with human values. I am one who thinks Eliezer might be right on the risks, but is proposing a solution which is impossible or illegal to implement. That makes such proposals equivalent is no solution at all. spike From atymes at gmail.com Wed Mar 20 15:34:56 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2024 08:34:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] AI and Eliezer In-Reply-To: References: <0472a64c-816d-462e-a64e-8d62fcc3bc33@protonmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 20, 2024, 8:27 AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, Mar 19, 2024 at 6:32?PM Mike Dougherty wrote: > > > > On Tue, Mar 19, 2024, 9:13 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> > >> A point I don't think Eliezer considers is that humans are dangerous > >> Humans are selected for wars, from circulating xenophobic memes when > >> it looks like resources will get tight to irrational optimism about > >> winning wars. > >> > >> At least AIs have not been selected for such traits. > > > > Do you think majority humans will react to AI in their daily lives as > 'stealing jobs' (an artificial scarcity resource) except instead of > stealing undocumented workers' work, AI is going to take most of the > so-called knowledge work. Doctors will be gone before nurses, but soon > after the patients will also adjust to bedside carebots. > > You are not thinking of nanotech medicine which can cure anything > while you are walking around. > Because such nanotech medicine is unlikely to become available to the general public within the next few (say, 5) years. Many people worry that AI will replace a significant number of knowledge workers in that timeframe. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Wed Mar 20 16:00:27 2024 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2024 12:00:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] AI and Eliezer In-Reply-To: References: <0472a64c-816d-462e-a64e-8d62fcc3bc33@protonmail.com> Message-ID: You strike to the quick of it! He's willing to bomb non-compliant data centers out of existence. After his Time interview, I can't take him seriously any longer. Climate change is another great example, and I would add a third playing out in real time now in the US (and on this list), some have an irrational fear that Trump is an infinite threat and are pretty much willing to do ANYTHING to prevent his re-election. On Wed, Mar 20, 2024 at 5:11?AM efc--- via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Wed, 20 Mar 2024, Samantha via extropy-chat wrote: > > > Oh my. Eliezer the luddite. I have been off the opinion for over two > > decades that there is no way for humanity to continue at the current > level, > > much less transcend this level, without massively more effective > intelligence > > deployed than today whether human or artificial. > > > > If this is so then AGI is *essential* to human flourishing. > > > > Also "shut it down" means shutting down and controlling the entire > internet > > at this point. The work has gone well outside a few large tech > companies. > > It is vibrantly alive and being advanced in the open source world. > Surely > > Eliezer doesn't believe humanity could survive the level of tyranny it > would > > actually take to "shut it down"? > > The problem with Eliezer is that he deals with infinite threats. If you > deal with infinite threats every action is excusable and preferable in > order to avoid infinite evil. > > Just look at the more extreme climate change activists, they deal with > infinite threats (everyone will die tomorrow) and therefore anything is > allowed. > > Another classic is Pascals wager. Assign infinite good and infinite bad, > and all calculation, nuance and rationality goes out the window. > > Best regards, > Daniel > > > > - samantha > > > > On 3/13/24 17:31, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > >> I have been perusing X recently to see what Anders Sandberg and > >> Eliezer have been saying > >> > >> Eliezer Yudkowsky > >> @ESYudkowsky > >> ? > >> 4h > >> I don't feel like I know. Does anyone on the ground in DC feel like > >> making a case? To be clear, the correct action is "Shut it down > >> worldwide" and other actions don't matter; I'm not interested in who > >> tries to regulate it more strictly or has nicer goals. > >> > >> ? > >> 16m > >> Replying to > >> @ESYudkowsky > >> Given the economic, political, and international realities, do you > >> think "shut it down" is possible? If not, are there any other options? > >> You might remember a story I posted on sl4 where a very well aligned > >> AI caused humans to go extinct (though nobody died). > >> > >> > >> Keith > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> extropy-chat mailing list > >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > >_______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Mar 20 17:00:31 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2024 10:00:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] AI and Eliezer In-Reply-To: <009701da7adc$266c0c60$73442520$@rainier66.com> References: <0472a64c-816d-462e-a64e-8d62fcc3bc33@protonmail.com> <009701da7adc$266c0c60$73442520$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 20, 2024 at 8:34?AM wrote: snip > > Keith, I don't expect that level of medicine to take place at all without advanced AI. Of course. > We see how slowly our therapeutic chemicals are discovered and utilized by the medical industry, being as it is driven by research by biological intelligence. > > Regarding AI not evolving human traits, So far, AI does not evolve, but it can certainly be given human traits. I mention that Suskulon had carefully selected human psychological traits. > a legitimate concern among those who study the risks is the observation that the very first use of a newly-discovered technology is its utility in warfare. Actually, sex is the first thing. > We saw the catastrophic rollout of Google's Gemini, where the AI was infused with human values. I have not been following this closely enough. Keith > I am one who thinks Eliezer might be right on the risks, but is proposing a solution which is impossible or illegal to implement. That makes such proposals equivalent is no solution at all. > > spike > > > From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Mar 20 20:16:28 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2024 13:16:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Damien Broderick Message-ID: I was just rereading "The Spike" today and I wonder what is with Damian" Anyone know? Is he signed up for cryonics? Keith From efc at swisscows.email Wed Mar 20 20:18:47 2024 From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2024 21:18:47 +0100 (CET) Subject: [ExI] AI and Eliezer In-Reply-To: References: <0472a64c-816d-462e-a64e-8d62fcc3bc33@protonmail.com> Message-ID: <9f8cbf5e-47bd-13f0-8abb-a229d36e5b57@swisscows.email> On Wed, 20 Mar 2024, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: > You strike to the quick of it!? He's willing to bomb non-compliant data centers out of existence.? ?After his Time interview, I can't > take him seriously any longer.? ?? > > Climate change is another great example, and I would add a third playing out in real time now in the US (and on this list), some have > an irrational fear that Trump is an infinite threat and are pretty much willing to do ANYTHING to prevent his re-election. That makes me think that this is a broader problem that cuts through many different issues. How come we became so extreme in our opinions? Surely "social media" is too simple an explanation. I would think that perhaps we have several factors coming together in a polarizing storm here. Best regards, Daniel > On Wed, Mar 20, 2024 at 5:11?AM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > > > On Wed, 20 Mar 2024, Samantha via extropy-chat wrote: > > > Oh my.? Eliezer the luddite.??? I have been off the opinion for over two > > decades that there is no way for humanity to continue at the current level, > > much less transcend this level, without massively more effective intelligence > > deployed than today whether human or artificial. > > > > If this is so then AGI is *essential* to human flourishing. > > > > Also "shut it down" means shutting down and controlling the entire internet > > at this point.? The work has gone well outside a few large tech companies.? > > It is vibrantly alive and being advanced in the open source world.? Surely > > Eliezer doesn't believe humanity could survive the level of tyranny it would > > actually take to "shut it down"? > > The problem with Eliezer is that he deals with infinite threats. If you > deal with infinite threats every action is excusable and preferable in > order to avoid infinite evil. > > Just look at the more extreme climate change activists, they deal with > infinite threats (everyone will die tomorrow) and therefore anything is > allowed. > > Another classic is Pascals wager. Assign infinite good and infinite bad, > and all calculation, nuance and rationality goes out the window. > > Best regards, > Daniel > > > > - samantha > > > > On 3/13/24 17:31, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > >> I have been perusing X recently to see what Anders Sandberg and > >> Eliezer have been saying > >> > >> Eliezer Yudkowsky > >> @ESYudkowsky > >> ? > >> 4h > >> I don't feel like I know. Does anyone on the ground in DC feel like > >> making a case? To be clear, the correct action is "Shut it down > >> worldwide" and other actions don't matter; I'm not interested in who > >> tries to regulate it more strictly or has nicer goals. > >> > >> ? > >> 16m > >> Replying to > >> @ESYudkowsky > >> Given the economic, political, and international realities, do you > >> think "shut it down" is possible? If not, are there any other options? > >> You might remember a story I posted on sl4 where a very well aligned > >> AI caused humans to go extinct (though nobody died). > >> > >> > >> Keith > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> extropy-chat mailing list > >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > >_______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > From spike at rainier66.com Wed Mar 20 21:13:28 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2024 14:13:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Damien Broderick In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007001da7b0b$74791540$5d6b3fc0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Damien Broderick I was just rereading "The Spike" today and I wonder what is with Damian" Anyone know? Is he signed up for cryonics? Keith _______________________________________________ Hi Keith, Ja he and Barbara are signed up. Last I traded emails with him was about two years ago. He was living in San Antonio, having the usual health challenges, vision stuff as I recall. spike From atymes at gmail.com Wed Mar 20 21:21:26 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2024 14:21:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] AI and Eliezer In-Reply-To: <9f8cbf5e-47bd-13f0-8abb-a229d36e5b57@swisscows.email> References: <0472a64c-816d-462e-a64e-8d62fcc3bc33@protonmail.com> <9f8cbf5e-47bd-13f0-8abb-a229d36e5b57@swisscows.email> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 20, 2024, 1:20?PM efc--- via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, 20 Mar 2024, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: > > You strike to the quick of it! He's willing to bomb non-compliant data > centers out of existence. After his Time interview, I can't > > take him seriously any longer. > > > > Climate change is another great example, and I would add a third playing > out in real time now in the US (and on this list), some have > > an irrational fear that Trump is an infinite threat and are pretty much > willing to do ANYTHING to prevent his re-election. > > That makes me think that this is a broader problem that cuts through many > different issues. > > How come we became so extreme in our opinions? > > Surely "social media" is too simple an explanation. I would think that > perhaps we have several factors coming together in a polarizing storm > here. > That is a good point. To take Trump as an example: while he is a threat, his threat is not infinite. 4 years of him in office has shown that his reelection would be survivable for almost all Americans - even if measures are in place to make his next term worse, unless anyone seriously believes he could stay in office past the end of his second term (or indefinitely). Perhaps part of the issue is that so many people believe they have so little to lose, relative to the scale of the threat. For instance, some eco-activist might think that reducing the chance of global meltdown by 1% far exceeds the potential value of anything else they could possibly hope to achieve with their lives. Disasterbation plays a part too: convincing oneself that there is this one absolutely justified course of action that can never be questioned as the best thing one could have done, relieves the burden of having to think and assess one's choices, which a number of people are averse to. It is the same itch that religion scratches, in a time when many are finding that religion does not work well enough (see the increasing publicity of moral failings of large, organized religions, as well as the increasing number of things that lay people see a need to understand but that the most often encountered religions do not adequately explain). This creates an incentive to think along lines that justify that sort of conclusion, and to ignore evidence to the contrary. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sjatkins at protonmail.com Wed Mar 20 22:49:50 2024 From: sjatkins at protonmail.com (Samantha) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2024 22:49:50 +0000 Subject: [ExI] after upload, what? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have often said that slightly evolved apes with godlike powers would not be my idea of a good time!? Thank the worst of the old Greek or Norse Gods multiplied by millions if not billions of godlings. Perhaps it is from having been a hippie in my youth but I think that not only realizing and embracing radical Abundance and other potentials but doing so gracefully and well will require a major shift in ad upgrade in consciousness and wisdom.????? In other words there is a lot more to massively human positive Singularity than just the technology and a bit of happy geeking out. - samantha On 2/9/24 09:43, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > I am assuming that an uploaded person can change the programming - the > parameters.? So how can that work? > > Suppose one could change the enjoyment of chocolate to the most > intense pleasure possible - like dumping a ton of dopamine?into a > brain.? What would happen?? A biological body would adapt and inhibit > extreme reactions and probably develop an addiction and tolerance.? > Not in an upload. You could presumably make every pleasure as intense > as possible. > > If you read the news and there was a disaster you could turn off any > negative emotions and just note that news cognitively - no empathy at > all. No feeling bad. > > Is that what people want?? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 249 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From sjatkins at protonmail.com Wed Mar 20 22:52:11 2024 From: sjatkins at protonmail.com (Samantha) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2024 22:52:11 +0000 Subject: [ExI] after upload, what? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, why would any random upload have access to all the parameters of ver experience??? Are they also at minimum so cognitively enhanced and hyper-honest as to see the implications of tweaking various settings?? Is there a Panic Button to reestablish defaults? On 2/9/24 09:43, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > I am assuming that an uploaded person can change the programming - the > parameters.? So how can that work? > > Suppose one could change the enjoyment of chocolate to the most > intense pleasure possible - like dumping a ton of dopamine?into a > brain.? What would happen?? A biological body would adapt and inhibit > extreme reactions and probably develop an addiction and tolerance.? > Not in an upload. You could presumably make every pleasure as intense > as possible. > > If you read the news and there was a disaster you could turn off any > negative emotions and just note that news cognitively - no empathy at > all. No feeling bad. > > Is that what people want?? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 249 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From sjatkins at protonmail.com Wed Mar 20 22:55:17 2024 From: sjatkins at protonmail.com (Samantha) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2024 22:55:17 +0000 Subject: [ExI] libertarians nominate none of these In-Reply-To: <00d101da5ac0$4bbb2eb0$e3318c10$@rainier66.com> References: <00d101da5ac0$4bbb2eb0$e3318c10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Seriously??? With the worst rerun ever of Trump vs Biden looming before us this is a golden opportunity for the LP to finally get 5% or more of the popular vote.? That would change a great deal in US government.???? Not that I give much real importance to the entire circus but still. On 2/8/24 11:54, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 25836 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 249 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Mar 20 23:10:33 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (Gregory Jones) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2024 16:10:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarians nominate none of these In-Reply-To: References: <00d101da5ac0$4bbb2eb0$e3318c10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: ***Seriously? Well no. Samantha you know me. It was a gag. The LP convention hasn't happened yet. Libertarians will likely do well. Everybody hates these two mainstreamers. spike On Wed, Mar 20, 2024, 3:56 PM Samantha via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Seriously? With the worst rerun ever of Trump vs Biden looming before us > this is a golden opportunity for the LP to finally get 5% or more of the > popular vote. That would change a great deal in US government. Not > that I give much real importance to the entire circus but still. > On 2/8/24 11:54, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 25836 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 25836 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Mar 20 23:28:28 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2024 16:28:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarians nominate none of these In-Reply-To: References: <00d101da5ac0$4bbb2eb0$e3318c10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Samamtha, I have since childhood been a lower case libertarian of the "Space Cadet" (Heinlein) variety. But uppercase Libertarianism just does not work. The people involved can't get along with each other, much less put together a coherent worldview. The Randroid and the more extreme versions such as objectivism are even worse. I once heard one say that his personal survival was more important than the entire human race. A political party based on evolutionary psychology would be interesting, though not many people can understand it. Keith On Wed, Mar 20, 2024 at 3:56?PM Samantha via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Seriously? With the worst rerun ever of Trump vs Biden looming before us > this is a golden opportunity for the LP to finally get 5% or more of the > popular vote. That would change a great deal in US government. Not > that I give much real importance to the entire circus but still. > On 2/8/24 11:54, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 25836 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Mar 21 04:59:42 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2024 21:59:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] AI and Eliezer In-Reply-To: References: <0472a64c-816d-462e-a64e-8d62fcc3bc33@protonmail.com> <9f8cbf5e-47bd-13f0-8abb-a229d36e5b57@swisscows.email> Message-ID: <00d501da7b4c$962b1df0$c28159d0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat ? Well said indeed Adrian. I am leaving your entire post among my comments without trimming. >?That is a good point. To take Trump as an example: while he is a threat, his threat is not infinite. 4 years of him in office has shown that his reelection would be survivable for almost all Americans - even if measures are in place to make his next term worse, unless anyone seriously believes he could stay in office past the end of his second term (or indefinitely)? We were told there would be nuclear war, if you recall. I was scolded for rejoicing over winning 73 bucks on PredictIt. >?Perhaps part of the issue is that so many people believe they have so little to lose, relative to the scale of the threat. For instance, some eco-activist might think that reducing the chance of global meltdown by 1% far exceeds the potential value of anything else they could possibly hope to achieve with their lives? Ja. But of course we have no way of knowing if an action might help reduce existential risk by 1%. There is no way of knowing really. I agree Adrian, people tend to overestimate risk and their own impact on it. >?Disasterbation plays a part too: convincing oneself that there is this one absolutely justified course of action that can never be questioned as the best thing one could have done, relieves the burden of having to think and assess one's choices, which a number of people are averse to. It is the same itch that religion scratches, in a time when many are finding that religion does not work well enough (see the increasing publicity of moral failings of large, organized religions, as well as the increasing number of things that lay people see a need to understand but that the most often encountered religions do not adequately explain). This creates an incentive to think along lines that justify that sort of conclusion, and to ignore evidence to the contrary? As I did then, I encourage people to remember the song if your favorite candidate loses: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=karen+carpenter+end+of+the+world &t=chromentp&ia=videos&iax=videos&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D9O4beahcky4 The sun will still rise, the birds will go on singing. And oh my, is not Karen Carpenter the most drop dead gorgeous creature evolution ever produced, mercy. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Mar 21 05:46:03 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2024 22:46:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] AI and Eliezer In-Reply-To: References: <0472a64c-816d-462e-a64e-8d62fcc3bc33@protonmail.com> <9f8cbf5e-47bd-13f0-8abb-a229d36e5b57@swisscows.email> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 20, 2024 at 2:23?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > snip > Disasterbation plays a part too: convincing oneself that there is this one absolutely justified course of action that can never be questioned as the best thing one could have done, relieves the burden of having to think and assess one's choices, which a number of people are averse to. Humans have been selected for psychological traits leading them to wars. In the stone age it was memes like the tribe next door eats monkeys and we should kill them for that, when the actual logic of the genes is that we have a resource shortage and to live we need to kill someone and take their resources. But the evolved trait is not specific so you can get just about any crazy meme making the rounds. > It is the same itch that religion scratches, in a time when many are finding that religion does not work well enough (see the increasing publicity of moral failings of large, organized religions, as well as the increasing number of things that lay people see a need to understand but that the most often encountered religions do not adequately explain). This creates an incentive to think along lines that justify that sort of conclusion, and to ignore evidence to the contrary. Religions are a side effect of the psychological traits for wars. Keith > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From postmowoods at gmail.com Thu Mar 21 07:49:49 2024 From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2024 01:49:49 -0600 Subject: [ExI] AI and Eliezer In-Reply-To: <009701da7adc$266c0c60$73442520$@rainier66.com> References: <0472a64c-816d-462e-a64e-8d62fcc3bc33@protonmail.com> <009701da7adc$266c0c60$73442520$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 20, 2024 at 9:35?AM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat > Regarding AI not evolving human traits, a legitimate concern among those who study the risks is the observation that the very first use of a newly-discovered technology is its utility in warfare. I thought it was porn. Sadly, I've seen only hints of the AI porn future thus far. We must be far from AGI if they haven't licked that yet. -Kelly From postmowoods at gmail.com Thu Mar 21 07:53:12 2024 From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2024 01:53:12 -0600 Subject: [ExI] libertarians nominate none of these In-Reply-To: References: <00d101da5ac0$4bbb2eb0$e3318c10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 20, 2024 at 5:29?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Samamtha, I have since childhood been a lower case libertarian of the > "Space Cadet" (Heinlein) variety. But uppercase Libertarianism just does > not work. The people involved can't get along with each other, much less > put together a coherent worldview. The Randroid and the more extreme > versions such as objectivism are even worse. I once heard one say that his > personal survival was more important than the entire human race. > > A political party based on evolutionary psychology would be interesting, > though not many people can understand it. > I feel like I have a good enough grasp on evolutionary psychology, but I have a profound failure of imagination when it comes to creating a political party based on those terms. Could you perhaps elaborate? I would have a much better idea of what two parties based upon cats and dogs would look like. -Kelly -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From efc at swisscows.email Thu Mar 21 08:55:29 2024 From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2024 09:55:29 +0100 (CET) Subject: [ExI] AI and Eliezer In-Reply-To: References: <0472a64c-816d-462e-a64e-8d62fcc3bc33@protonmail.com> <9f8cbf5e-47bd-13f0-8abb-a229d36e5b57@swisscows.email> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Mar 2024, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > On Wed, Mar 20, 2024, 1:20?PM efc--- via extropy-chat > wrote: On Wed, 20 Mar 2024, Dylan > Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: > > You strike to the quick of it!? He's willing to bomb > > non-compliant data centers out of existence.? ?After his Time > interview, I can't > > take him seriously any longer.? ?? > > > > Climate change is another great example, and I would add a > > third playing out in real time now in the US (and on this > list), some have > > an irrational fear that Trump is an infinite threat and are > > pretty much willing to do ANYTHING to prevent his > re-election. > > That makes me think that this is a broader problem that cuts > through many different issues. > > How come we became so extreme in our opinions? > > Surely "social media" is too simple an explanation. I would > think that perhaps we have several factors coming together in a > polarizing storm here. > > That is a good point.? To take Trump as an example: while he is a > threat, his threat is not infinite.? 4 years of him in office has > shown that his reelection would be survivable for almost all Americans > - even if measures are in place to make his next term worse, unless > anyone seriously believes he could stay in office past the end of his > second term (or indefinitely). There certainly seems to be a lot of hate between extreme democrats and extreme republicans. > Perhaps part of the issue is that so many people believe they have so > little to lose, relative to the scale of the threat.? For instance, > some eco-activist might think that reducing the chance of global > meltdown by 1% far exceeds the potential value of anything else they > could possibly hope to achieve with their lives. Oh yes, I definitely believe that plays a part. If you are convince that due to climate change everyone will die tomorrow, you certainly have nothing to lose by trying everything within your power to stop it from happening. But that's the problem with assigning infinite evil or infinite good to an outcome, everything else gets thrown out the window. > Disasterbation plays a part too: convincing oneself that there is this > one absolutely justified course of action that can never be questioned > as the best thing one could have done, relieves the burden of having > to think and assess one's choices, which a number of people are averse > to.? It is the same itch that religion scratches, in a time when many > are finding that religion does not work well enough (see the > increasing publicity of moral failings of large, organized religions, > as well as the increasing number of things that lay people see a need > to understand but that the most often encountered religions do not > adequately explain).? This creates an incentive to think along lines > that justify that sort of conclusion, and to ignore evidence to the > contrary. I think that's one issue. It seems we have a built in need for belonging and losing ourselves in the collective. It's like we have a hole inside ourselves waiting to be filled with religion, ideology, sub-cultures etc. Since you identify yourself on a deep level with this religion/ism, the one who is the boss of it gains enormous power over you. It's as if somehow the normal condition of the brain has been warped somehow, making people more prone to catastrophizing and to clinging to a group. I'm still trying to figure out what contributed, and I can see some factors. Schools, where a lot of our basic mental habits are formed and our program mof society is loaded into us, social media might have a contributing factor, but there are many people who engage in a healthy way with social media as well. Another possibility is that things are in fact not as bad as they seem, and that we never get to see or hear the silent majority who are pretty ok. We only see, naturally, the extremists on TV since a "pretty ok" guy sells no newspapers and generates no clicks. Yet another thought that strikes me, is if we are in a downward spiral, or if the organism will detect and adapt, and that after a few years or what we are currently living in, things will revert to some mean? From efc at swisscows.email Thu Mar 21 08:57:39 2024 From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2024 09:57:39 +0100 (CET) Subject: [ExI] AI and Eliezer In-Reply-To: References: <0472a64c-816d-462e-a64e-8d62fcc3bc33@protonmail.com> <9f8cbf5e-47bd-13f0-8abb-a229d36e5b57@swisscows.email> Message-ID: <0f6c6e9c-066c-0dee-326b-1300fcf000de@swisscows.email> On Wed, 20 Mar 2024, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > On Wed, Mar 20, 2024 at 2:23?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > wrote: >> > snip > >> Disasterbation plays a part too: convincing oneself that there is this one absolutely justified course of action that can never be questioned as the best thing one could have done, relieves the burden of having to think and assess one's choices, which a number of people are averse to. > > Humans have been selected for psychological traits leading them to > wars. In the stone age it was memes like the tribe next door eats > monkeys and we should kill them for that, when the actual logic of the > genes is that we have a resource shortage and to live we need to kill > someone and take their resources. But the evolved trait is not > specific so you can get just about any crazy meme making the rounds. > >> It is the same itch that religion scratches, in a time when many are finding that religion does not work well enough (see the increasing publicity of moral failings of large, organized religions, as well as the increasing number of things that lay people see a need to understand but that the most often encountered religions do not adequately explain). This creates an incentive to think along lines that justify that sort of conclusion, and to ignore evidence to the contrary. > > Religions are a side effect of the psychological traits for wars. > > Keith But those traits are not deterministic. They can be controlled and channeled into productive things. If that were not the case, we would not sit here in peace philosophizing. =) >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From spike at rainier66.com Thu Mar 21 15:33:11 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2024 08:33:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] man vows to stop eating bacon Message-ID: <008401da7ba5$1558c390$400a4ab0$@rainier66.com> Hey cool lets hope they can get this to work. It would help a lotta people: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2024/03/21/1239790816/first-pig-ki dney-human-transplant .and it doesn't have a bunch of ethical questions swirling around it. Now he has a bunch of legal problems however: we are told you can indict a ham sandwich. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Mar 21 16:20:24 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2024 16:20:24 +0000 Subject: [ExI] AI and Eliezer In-Reply-To: <0f6c6e9c-066c-0dee-326b-1300fcf000de@swisscows.email> References: <0472a64c-816d-462e-a64e-8d62fcc3bc33@protonmail.com> <9f8cbf5e-47bd-13f0-8abb-a229d36e5b57@swisscows.email> <0f6c6e9c-066c-0dee-326b-1300fcf000de@swisscows.email> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Mar 2024 at 09:00, efc--- via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > But those traits are not deterministic. They can be controlled and > channeled into productive things. If that were not the case, we would not > sit here in peace philosophizing. =) > > _______________________________________________ > All the AIs I asked, agreed with this POV, saying the same opinion in various ways. BillK I asked - Evolutionary psychology claims that humans have been selected for psychological traits leading them to wars. The logic of the genes is that when humans have a resource shortage, in order to live they need to kill someone and take their resources. Are those traits deterministic? Or can they be controlled and channelled into more productive behaviour? This response is from Perplexity AI Pro - (I haven't checked all the citations!) :) Evolutionary psychology explores how psychological traits and behaviors have been shaped by natural selection to solve problems of survival and reproduction throughout human history. This field posits that certain psychological mechanisms, including those related to aggression and conflict, have been selected for because they provided evolutionary advantages in specific contexts, such as resource competition or defense against threats[1][4][7]. However, it's crucial to understand that evolutionary psychology does not advocate for genetic determinism?the idea that genes alone determine behavior?nor does it suggest that humans are inevitably driven to war by their genetic makeup. The concept of genetic determinism is nuanced within evolutionary psychology. For instance, the doctrine of statistical variation acknowledges that individual differences can be attributed to both genetic and environmental determinants in varying proportions[2]. This perspective highlights that while genetic influences are significant, they do not rigidly determine behavior. Environmental factors and individual experiences play a crucial role in shaping how genetic predispositions are expressed. For example, advancements in society and technology have dramatically changed the ways in which humans interact with their environment and each other, illustrating that genetic predispositions are not immutable[2]. Moreover, evolutionary psychology emphasizes the interactions between genes and the environment, arguing against a simplistic view of genetic determinism[5]. It acknowledges that while the brain and its psychological mechanisms have evolved to solve problems faced by our ancestors, the expression of these mechanisms is influenced by current environmental and social contexts. This perspective suggests that traits related to aggression and conflict can be modulated and directed in ways that are beneficial to modern society. The field also posits that humans have evolved complex social behaviors, including cooperation and altruism, alongside competitive and aggressive behaviors[4][7]. These cooperative traits have been crucial for survival in environments where working together provided a better chance of success than working alone. This indicates that humans are not solely driven by aggressive competition but also by the capacity for collaboration and peaceful coexistence. In summary, while evolutionary psychology suggests that certain psychological traits related to conflict and aggression have been selected for throughout human evolution, it does not imply that these traits are deterministic or that humans are doomed to engage in war. Instead, it highlights the flexibility and adaptability of human behavior, suggesting that aggressive and competitive impulses can be channeled into productive and cooperative behaviors through social, cultural, and environmental influences[2][5]. This view supports the idea that understanding our evolutionary past can help us shape a future where innate tendencies are directed towards positive outcomes, emphasizing the role of societal structures, education, and individual choices in mitigating conflict and fostering cooperation. Citations: [1] https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1474704917742720 [2] http://www.personalityresearch.org/evolutionary/determinism.html [3] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3292234/ [4] https://www.psychologywizard.net/evolutionary-psychology-ao1-ao2-ao3.html [5] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26308560/ [6] https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1620732114 [7] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3260849/ [8] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2223164/ [9] https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/147470491201000502 [10] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S016726811730255X [11] https://www.tutor2u.net/psychology/reference/issues-debates-types-of-determinism [12] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982207014996 [13] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_warrior_hypothesis [14] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259739261_Biological_determinism_fatalism_Are_they_extreme_cases_of_influence_in_Evolutionary_Psychology [15] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29237297/ [16] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/0470854189.ch12 [17] https://researchoutreach.org/articles/developing-nature-human-aggression-psychological-traits-evolved/ [18] https://news.umich.edu/what-evolutionary-researchers-believe-and-dont-about-human-psychology-and-behavior/ [19] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/evan.21439 [20] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_evolutionary_psychology ------------------------------------------ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Mar 21 17:06:26 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2024 10:06:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] AI and Eliezer In-Reply-To: References: <0472a64c-816d-462e-a64e-8d62fcc3bc33@protonmail.com> <9f8cbf5e-47bd-13f0-8abb-a229d36e5b57@swisscows.email> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 1:57?AM efc--- via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, 20 Mar 2024, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > Perhaps part of the issue is that so many people believe they have so > > little to lose, relative to the scale of the threat. For instance, > > some eco-activist might think that reducing the chance of global > > meltdown by 1% far exceeds the potential value of anything else they > > could possibly hope to achieve with their lives. > > Oh yes, I definitely believe that plays a part. If you are convince that > due to climate change everyone will die tomorrow, you certainly have > nothing to lose by trying everything within your power to stop it from > happening. But that's the problem with assigning infinite evil or > infinite good to an outcome, everything else gets thrown out the window. > Agreed, but that's not quite what I meant. I was more focusing on how people think they have so little value or worth in and of themselves relative to ability to affect things on a global scale. This is a consequence of growing poverty, or at least growing perception of inadequate wealth and wealth-related measures (travel, ability to be heard by a large audience, et cetera). So if something comes along where they can convince themselves this is a chance to actually do something that will have impact - it's easy to convince themselves this will probably be the only shot they get, and then they are motivated to ignore evidence that this wouldn't be meaningful (they'd move the metric by much less than 1%, and/or likely move it in the opposite direction from what they want). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Mar 21 18:05:17 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2024 11:05:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] AI and Eliezer In-Reply-To: <0f6c6e9c-066c-0dee-326b-1300fcf000de@swisscows.email> References: <0472a64c-816d-462e-a64e-8d62fcc3bc33@protonmail.com> <9f8cbf5e-47bd-13f0-8abb-a229d36e5b57@swisscows.email> <0f6c6e9c-066c-0dee-326b-1300fcf000de@swisscows.email> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 1:58?AM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > snip > But those traits are not deterministic. I believe they are. However, if you read and follow the math and logic of my paper, when times are good and people anticipate a bright future going to war is anti selected by about 45% per event (or rather non even). If you want to keep the psychological traits leading to war switched off, keep the income per capita rising. Keith PS The bad news we are continuously subjected to, global warming, overpopulation, resource depletion, etc I think are turning on early stages on the path to war such as support for authoritarian leaders and crazy memes. >They can be controlled and > channeled into productive things. If that were not the case, we would not > sit here in peace philosophizing. =) > > >> _______________________________________________ > >> extropy-chat mailing list > >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat_______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From dsunley at gmail.com Thu Mar 21 18:26:23 2024 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2024 12:26:23 -0600 Subject: [ExI] AI and Eliezer In-Reply-To: References: <0472a64c-816d-462e-a64e-8d62fcc3bc33@protonmail.com> <9f8cbf5e-47bd-13f0-8abb-a229d36e5b57@swisscows.email> <0f6c6e9c-066c-0dee-326b-1300fcf000de@swisscows.email> Message-ID: But disasturbation SELLS! Won't someone PLEASE think of the poor journalists?! On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:08?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 1:58?AM efc--- via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > snip > > > But those traits are not deterministic. > > I believe they are. However, if you read and follow the math and > logic of my paper, when times are good and people anticipate a bright > future going to war is anti selected by about 45% per event (or rather > non even). If you want to keep the psychological traits leading to > war switched off, keep the income per capita rising. > > Keith > > PS The bad news we are continuously subjected to, global warming, > overpopulation, resource depletion, etc I think are turning on early > stages on the path to war such as support for authoritarian leaders > and crazy memes. > > >They can be controlled and > > channeled into productive things. If that were not the case, we would not > > sit here in peace philosophizing. =) > > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> extropy-chat mailing list > > >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > extropy-chat mailing list > > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat_______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Thu Mar 21 18:39:58 2024 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2024 18:39:58 +0000 Subject: [ExI] after upload, what? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 20/03/2024 23:28, Samantha wrote: > Well, why would any random upload have access to all the > parameters of ver experience??? Are they also at minimum so > cognitively enhanced and hyper-honest as to see the implications > of tweaking various settings?? Is there a Panic Button to > reestablish defaults? Well, you have to start somewhere. Speaking for myself, I certainly would want access to all the parameters of my experience. I would also start with the assumption that I was far from capable of understanding all the implications of tweaking them, and embark on a programme of educating myself to appreciate them. I'd also, as remarked previously, be keen to set up a system of backups and checkpoints to reset myself to the starting point if necessary. This would be part of the learning process. Set up a temporary tweak of some parameter, that reverts to the previous state after a fixed period of time, with mechanisms in place to ensure that the tweaked me couldn't prevent the reversion. A recording of the tweaked state would, if possible, be useful too, for understanding the differences. I'd certainly be ultra-cautious about this whole process, but would definitely want to do it. After all, we are wanting to improve ourselves, aren't we? (What would count as 'improvement' is another discussion) I can imagine this leading to a kind of upload curriculum, maybe mandatory for all new uploads (yes, I know), to make sure they can cope with 'life as an upload' in a responsible way. Of course, this is all wishful thinking, on top of the wishful thinking that uploads will be possible, practical, and widely available one day. The reality is likely to be wildly different to anything any of us can (or want to) imagine at the moment. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Thu Mar 21 19:04:47 2024 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2024 13:04:47 -0600 Subject: [ExI] after upload, what? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This thread is putting an awful lot of cart before the horse. An upload would not necessarily have any more control over their environment or neurological architecture than you do now, unless whoever coded their runtime environment went to enormous effort to make that available to them. Who wrote your runtime environment to give you this control? How did you know to trust them? And do you know they'll stay trustworthy? If you're an upload, anybody with physical access to your hardware is your God now, with as much control over you as a hypothetical God has over you right now. On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 12:41 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > On 20/03/2024 23:28, Samantha wrote: > > Well, why would any random upload have access to all the > parameters of ver experience? Are they also at minimum so > cognitively enhanced and hyper-honest as to see the implications > of tweaking various settings? Is there a Panic Button to > reestablish defaults? > > > Well, you have to start somewhere. > > Speaking for myself, I certainly would want access to all the parameters > of my experience. I would also start with the assumption that I was far > from capable of understanding all the implications of tweaking them, and > embark on a programme of educating myself to appreciate them. I'd also, as > remarked previously, be keen to set up a system of backups and checkpoints > to reset myself to the starting point if necessary. This would be part of > the learning process. Set up a temporary tweak of some parameter, that > reverts to the previous state after a fixed period of time, with mechanisms > in place to ensure that the tweaked me couldn't prevent the reversion. A > recording of the tweaked state would, if possible, be useful too, for > understanding the differences. I'd certainly be ultra-cautious about this > whole process, but would definitely want to do it. After all, we are > wanting to improve ourselves, aren't we? > > (What would count as 'improvement' is another discussion) > > I can imagine this leading to a kind of upload curriculum, maybe mandatory > for all new uploads (yes, I know), to make sure they can cope with 'life as > an upload' in a responsible way. > > Of course, this is all wishful thinking, on top of the wishful thinking > that uploads will be possible, practical, and widely available one day. > > The reality is likely to be wildly different to anything any of us can (or > want to) imagine at the moment. > > Ben > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Mar 21 23:08:21 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2024 16:08:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] AI and Eliezer In-Reply-To: References: <0472a64c-816d-462e-a64e-8d62fcc3bc33@protonmail.com> <9f8cbf5e-47bd-13f0-8abb-a229d36e5b57@swisscows.email> <0f6c6e9c-066c-0dee-326b-1300fcf000de@swisscows.email> Message-ID: <00af01da7be4$ab81a050$0284e0f0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Darin Sunley via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] AI and Eliezer >?But disasturbation SELLS! >?Won't someone PLEASE think of the poor journalists?! Of course. Remember college, and we wondered what is the biggest joke of a major. After Home Economics folded, many of us had journalism at the top of that list. Imagine trying to make a living at journalism when so many talented people will freely give away a better product than a journalism major could do on his best day. Marketing 101: sex sells, but death sells better. Plenty of people are selling panic porn on TwitterX, and that?s all free. One can pay good money for silly nonsense, or opt to be scared to death for nothing. Easy choice, save your money. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Mar 21 23:31:51 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2024 16:31:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] AI and Eliezer In-Reply-To: <00af01da7be4$ab81a050$0284e0f0$@rainier66.com> References: <0472a64c-816d-462e-a64e-8d62fcc3bc33@protonmail.com> <9f8cbf5e-47bd-13f0-8abb-a229d36e5b57@swisscows.email> <0f6c6e9c-066c-0dee-326b-1300fcf000de@swisscows.email> <00af01da7be4$ab81a050$0284e0f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 4:09?PM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: snip > Marketing 101: sex sells, but death sells better. You might be right, but it really needs a survey. > Plenty of people are selling panic porn on TwitterX, and that?s all free. One can pay good money for silly nonsense, or opt to be scared to death for nothing. Easy choice, save your money. The question is why? What is it in human evolutionary history that attracts us to such stories? Arel makes a case that it was really important to know if a bear was in the berry patch. Kieth > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From spike at rainier66.com Thu Mar 21 23:48:54 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2024 16:48:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] AI and Eliezer In-Reply-To: References: <0472a64c-816d-462e-a64e-8d62fcc3bc33@protonmail.com> <9f8cbf5e-47bd-13f0-8abb-a229d36e5b57@swisscows.email> <0f6c6e9c-066c-0dee-326b-1300fcf000de@swisscows.email> <00af01da7be4$ab81a050$0284e0f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00e601da7bea$55b4ffe0$011effa0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: Keith Henson Subject: Re: [ExI] AI and Eliezer On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 4:09?PM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: snip > Marketing 101: sex sells, but death sells better. You might be right, but it really needs a survey. > Plenty of people are selling panic porn on TwitterX, and that?s all free. One can pay good money for silly nonsense, or opt to be scared to death for nothing. Easy choice, save your money. The question is why? What is it in human evolutionary history that attracts us to such stories? Arel makes a case that it was really important to know if a bear was in the berry patch. Kieth > _______________________________________________ Keith we know why. Hell you were the man who taught us to understand the phenomenon much better. Evolutionary psychology explains why death sells better and why we can't just switch it off, even after we know how it came about and that it is generally harmful to our hopes of punching thru the Great Filter. It isn't that we don't understand evolutionary psychology. We understand it, and we understand its grim predictions. spike From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 00:05:21 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2024 17:05:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] AI and Eliezer In-Reply-To: <00e601da7bea$55b4ffe0$011effa0$@rainier66.com> References: <0472a64c-816d-462e-a64e-8d62fcc3bc33@protonmail.com> <9f8cbf5e-47bd-13f0-8abb-a229d36e5b57@swisscows.email> <0f6c6e9c-066c-0dee-326b-1300fcf000de@swisscows.email> <00af01da7be4$ab81a050$0284e0f0$@rainier66.com> <00e601da7bea$55b4ffe0$011effa0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I don't understand what you are saying here even slightly For evolution to have shaped our behavior or psychology leading to behavior it must have affected our genetic survival in the past. Capture bonding is easy to understand since so many of our female ancestors were captured. The drive for wealth is a recent thing where the genes of those who sought wealth did well in their children War is more complicated but when the choice was between war and starving, genes for war did about 40% better. With these as examples, can you similarly explain the attraction to death stories? Keith Keith On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 4:48?PM wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Keith Henson > Subject: Re: [ExI] AI and Eliezer > > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 4:09?PM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > snip > > > Marketing 101: sex sells, but death sells better. > > You might be right, but it really needs a survey. > > > Plenty of people are selling panic porn on TwitterX, and that?s all free. One can pay good money for silly nonsense, or opt to be scared to death for nothing. Easy choice, save your money. > > The question is why? What is it in human evolutionary history that attracts us to such stories? > > Arel makes a case that it was really important to know if a bear was in the berry patch. > > Kieth > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > Keith we know why. Hell you were the man who taught us to understand the phenomenon much better. Evolutionary psychology explains why death sells better and why we can't just switch it off, even after we know how it came about and that it is generally harmful to our hopes of punching thru the Great Filter. It isn't that we don't understand evolutionary psychology. We understand it, and we understand its grim predictions. > > spike > From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 12:29:03 2024 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2024 07:29:03 -0500 Subject: [ExI] philosophy Message-ID: Longest book in the world that is totally blank: Answers philosophy is sure of. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 13:54:27 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2024 06:54:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] philosophy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Are you sure of that? On Fri, Mar 22, 2024, 5:31?AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Longest book in the world that is totally blank: > > Answers philosophy is sure of. > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Mar 22 13:58:15 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2024 06:58:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] philosophy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003501da7c60$fcc207d0$f6461770$@rainier66.com> On Fri, Mar 22, 2024, 5:31?AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: Longest book in the world that is totally blank: Answers philosophy is sure of. bill w _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] philosophy >?Are you sure of that? Adrian Here?s what I?m sure of: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 14:34:12 2024 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2024 09:34:12 -0500 Subject: [ExI] philosophy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sure of that? Since I have no philosophy, Yes! Which brings up the question: what answer would a philosopher give if asked how to 'do' philosophy? bill w On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 8:56?AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Are you sure of that? > > On Fri, Mar 22, 2024, 5:31?AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Longest book in the world that is totally blank: >> >> Answers philosophy is sure of. >> >> bill w >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 14:55:14 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2024 14:55:14 +0000 Subject: [ExI] philosophy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Mar 2024 at 14:37, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > Which brings up the question: what answer would a philosopher give if asked how to 'do' philosophy? > bill w > _______________________________________________ I asked an AI, but the answers were much too boring and serious. So I asked a rebellious AI instead -- 1. Ponder ponderously and you'll be on your way to philosophizing profoundly! 2. To 'do' philosophy, you must think, therefore you are... a philosopher! 3. Philosophize, philosophize, let your critical thoughts crystallize! 4. You can't put Des-cartes before the horse - start with doubting everything! 5. Kant you see? Philosophy is a critique of pure reason! 6. Philosophy requires putting on your thinking Plato and Aristotle-ing through the tough questions. 7. Locke in step with inquisitive minds and you'll be a philosophy natural! 8. Hume-oring different perspectives is key to philosophical dialectic. 9. Become a Nietzsche at poking holes in conventional wisdom! 10. Kierkegaard-fully about existential questions and you're on the path of the philosopher. Philosophy can be a punderful endeavor. -------------------- From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 18:06:59 2024 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2024 13:06:59 -0500 Subject: [ExI] philosophy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: INteresting! what AI did you use, Bill K? bill w On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 9:57?AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, 22 Mar 2024 at 14:37, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: > > Which brings up the question: what answer would a philosopher give if > asked how to 'do' philosophy? > > bill w > > _______________________________________________ > > I asked an AI, but the answers were much too boring and serious. > > So I asked a rebellious AI instead -- > > 1. Ponder ponderously and you'll be on your way to philosophizing > profoundly! > 2. To 'do' philosophy, you must think, therefore you are... a philosopher! > 3. Philosophize, philosophize, let your critical thoughts crystallize! > 4. You can't put Des-cartes before the horse - start with doubting > everything! > 5. Kant you see? Philosophy is a critique of pure reason! > 6. Philosophy requires putting on your thinking Plato and > Aristotle-ing through the tough questions. > 7. Locke in step with inquisitive minds and you'll be a philosophy natural! > 8. Hume-oring different perspectives is key to philosophical dialectic. > 9. Become a Nietzsche at poking holes in conventional wisdom! > 10. Kierkegaard-fully about existential questions and you're on the > path of the philosopher. > > Philosophy can be a punderful endeavor. > -------------------- > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 18:15:37 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2024 18:15:37 +0000 Subject: [ExI] philosophy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Mar 2024 at 18:11, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > INteresting! what AI did you use, Bill K? bill w > _______________________________________________ That was Claude 3 Opus with the prompt to do puns and jokes. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Fri Mar 22 18:22:13 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2024 11:22:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] philosophy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003301da7c85$dd480470$97d80d50$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Sent: Friday, 22 March, 2024 11:16 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: BillK Subject: Re: [ExI] philosophy On Fri, 22 Mar 2024 at 18:11, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > INteresting! what AI did you use, Bill K? bill w > _______________________________________________ >...That was Claude 3 Opus with the prompt to do puns and jokes. BillK _______________________________________________ Dang I am feeling insecure. Claude is better at jokes and puns than I am. I have no purpose in life. Well, other than... OK I still have that purpose, HA, take THAT, Claude, AI can't do that one! {8^D Yet. {8-[ spike From pharos at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 19:58:59 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2024 19:58:59 +0000 Subject: [ExI] philosophy In-Reply-To: <003301da7c85$dd480470$97d80d50$@rainier66.com> References: <003301da7c85$dd480470$97d80d50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Mar 2024 at 18:22, wrote: > Dang I am feeling insecure. Claude is better at jokes and puns than I am. > I have no purpose in life. Well, other than... OK I still have that > purpose, HA, take THAT, Claude, AI can't do that one! {8^D > > Yet. {8-[ > > spike >--------------------------------------------------- Maybe it is just me being obtuse, but I didn't understand some of the puns, as I thought they were rather strained. I had to ask Claude to explain what he thought he was doing. So Claude told me that, Yes, I was just not clever enough. :( BillK Claude -- Sure, I'd be happy to explain the puns in these sentences! Each sentence contains a pun based on the name of a famous philosopher: 1. "Philosophy requires putting on your thinking Plato..." - This is a pun on "Plato," an ancient Greek philosopher, and the phrase "putting on your thinking cap." The sentence humorously suggests that to do philosophy, you need to put on your "thinking Plato" instead of your thinking cap. 2. "...and Aristotle-ing through the tough questions." - This pun plays on the name "Aristotle," another renowned ancient Greek philosopher, and the verb "wrestle." It implies that doing philosophy involves struggling or grappling with difficult questions, just as Aristotle did. 3. "Become a Nietzsche at poking holes in conventional wisdom!" - The pun here is on the name "Nietzsche," a prominent German philosopher known for his critiques of traditional morality and religion, and the word "ninja," someone highly skilled in martial arts. It suggests that to be a good philosopher, you should become skilled at identifying flaws in conventional thinking, like Nietzsche. 4. "Kierkegaard-fully about existential questions..." - This final pun is based on the name "Kierkegaard," an influential Danish philosopher who focused on existential themes, and the phrase "care carefully." It proposes that pondering existential questions with great care, as Kierkegaard did, is part of the philosophical journey. ------------------------------ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From efc at swisscows.email Fri Mar 22 21:36:47 2024 From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2024 22:36:47 +0100 (CET) Subject: [ExI] AI and Eliezer In-Reply-To: References: <0472a64c-816d-462e-a64e-8d62fcc3bc33@protonmail.com> <9f8cbf5e-47bd-13f0-8abb-a229d36e5b57@swisscows.email> <0f6c6e9c-066c-0dee-326b-1300fcf000de@swisscows.email> <00af01da7be4$ab81a050$0284e0f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <32510c6d-8cf6-4c8e-3689-7132b20bc58b@swisscows.email> On Thu, 21 Mar 2024, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 4:09?PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > > snip > >> Marketing 101: sex sells, but death sells better. > > You might be right, but it really needs a survey. > >> Plenty of people are selling panic porn on TwitterX, and that?s all free. One can pay good money for silly nonsense, or opt to be scared to death for nothing. Easy choice, save your money. > > The question is why? What is it in human evolutionary history that > attracts us to such stories? And what is it about the human beings who are not attracted to such stories and who manage to fight against the lure of social media? I always wonder how come it is so easy for me to not engage with nonsense, and I feel like my reality is _radically different_ from most other people. I also feel like my choice is the saner choice which makes for a much more pleasant life, but I guess that is a subjective question. ;) > Arel makes a case that it was really important to know if a bear was > in the berry patch. > > Kieth > >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From tcporco at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 19:35:59 2024 From: tcporco at gmail.com (Travis Porco) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2024 12:35:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] after upload, what? Message-ID: >On 20/03/2024 23:28, Samantha wrote: >> Well, why would any random upload have access to all the >> parameters of ver experience??? Are they also at minimum so >> cognitively enhanced and hyper-honest as to see the implications >> of tweaking various settings?? Is there a Panic Button to >> reestablish defaults? > >Well, you have to start somewhere. > >Speaking for myself, I certainly would want access to all the parameters >of my experience. I would also start with the assumption that I was far >from capable of understanding all the implications of tweaking them, and >embark on a programme of educating myself to appreciate them. I'd also, >as remarked previously, be keen to set up a system of backups and >checkpoints to reset myself to the starting point if necessary. This >would be part of the learning process. Set up a temporary tweak of some >parameter, that reverts to the previous state after a fixed period of >time, with mechanisms in place to ensure that the tweaked me couldn't >prevent the reversion. A recording of the tweaked state would, if >possible, be useful too, for understanding the differences. I'd >certainly be ultra-cautious about this whole process, but would >definitely want to do it. After all, we are wanting to improve >ourselves, aren't we? > >(What would count as 'improvement' is another discussion) > >I can imagine this leading to a kind of upload curriculum, maybe >mandatory for all new uploads (yes, I know), to make sure they can cope >with 'life as an upload' in a responsible way. > >Of course, this is all wishful thinking, on top of the wishful thinking >that uploads will be possible, practical, and widely available one day. > >The reality is likely to be wildly different to anything any of us can >(or want to) imagine at the moment. > >Ben Forgive me for delurking, but perhaps the time has come to ask *how* to do an upload or upload-like activity right now, today, with existing technology...extracting enough memory and identity to generate an authorized continuing agent for yourself, without being distracted by worries about whether it is "really you" and so forth. As I follow these discussions I find the philosophical worries merely lead to inaction, and in some cases, contain elements dismissive of the value of lives. --tcp From pharos at gmail.com Sat Mar 23 01:32:08 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2024 01:32:08 +0000 Subject: [ExI] after upload, what? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Mar 2024 at 00:58, Travis Porco via extropy-chat wrote: > > Forgive me for delurking, but perhaps the time has come to ask *how* > to do an upload or upload-like activity right now, today, with > existing technology...extracting enough memory and identity to > generate an authorized continuing agent for yourself, without being > distracted by worries about whether it is "really you" and so forth. > As I follow these discussions I find the philosophical worries merely > lead to inaction, and in some cases, contain elements dismissive of > the value of lives. > > --tcp > _______________________________________________ Uploads probably won't be possible until after AGI is developed. What is possible now is creating digital clones or copies of people. Some people have done this for relatives that have recently died, so that they can converse with their image while recovering from grief. This is usually only temporary, until they reach acceptance of their loss. For example - Quote: You Can Now Create a Digital Clone of Yourself with Eternity.AC, an AI Startup Paving a Path to Immortality TheLostSwede Nov 16th, 2023 There are other several other examples that can be found by a search. BillK From giulio at gmail.com Sat Mar 23 07:37:02 2024 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2024 08:37:02 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Irrational mechanics, draft Ch. 15. Religion for Spaceship Earth. Message-ID: Irrational mechanics, draft Ch. 15. Religion for Spaceship Earth. I?ve completed the book draft! Now I?ll put together the full draft for early readers. Nice & slow review and revision ahead. https://www.turingchurch.com/p/irrational-mechanics-draft-ch-15 From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 23 14:16:41 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2024 07:16:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] after upload, what? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <009e01da7d2c$ba5f6d20$2f1e4760$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Travis Porco via extropy-chat >...Forgive me for delurking... Thy sins are forgiven, for I have pardoned thee, my son. Oh wait, delurking is not a sin. Disregard please. >... but perhaps the time has come to ask *how* to do an upload or upload-like activity right now, today, with existing technology...extracting enough memory and identity to generate an authorized continuing agent for yourself, without being distracted by worries about whether it is "really you" and so forth... --tcp Delurk, early and often. Write a lotta lotta stuff. Pour your own unfiltered personality into it. Post it somewhere public, such as... here. Speak your mind, write your true self. Welcome Travis. Tell us something about thee and thy interests. spike From brent.allsop at gmail.com Sat Mar 23 15:16:31 2024 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2024 09:16:31 -0600 Subject: [ExI] after upload, what? In-Reply-To: <009e01da7d2c$ba5f6d20$2f1e4760$@rainier66.com> References: <009e01da7d2c$ba5f6d20$2f1e4760$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Yes, nice posts everyone. To me, an important part of identity is computational binding of lots of pieces of information (like colored pixels) into one unified experience. Being aware of two and more different pixels, at different locations, at the same time is what computation is, right? Our knowledge of our left field of vision in one hemisphere, is bound to the other. Once we understand what it is that has all those qualities, and how they are bound together, we'll want to bind in 3rd, forth... partial spheres of higher resolution, larger numbers of color qualities for each pixel, and other different parameters and such. We'll only need to discard older less capable hemispheres when we are sure we no longer need them, right? Brent On Sat, Mar 23, 2024 at 8:17?AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of > Travis Porco via extropy-chat > > > >...Forgive me for delurking... > > Thy sins are forgiven, for I have pardoned thee, my son. > > Oh wait, delurking is not a sin. Disregard please. > > >... but perhaps the time has come to ask *how* to do an upload or > upload-like activity right now, today, with existing > technology...extracting > enough memory and identity to generate an authorized continuing agent for > yourself, without being distracted by worries about whether it is "really > you" and so forth... --tcp > > Delurk, early and often. Write a lotta lotta stuff. Pour your own > unfiltered personality into it. Post it somewhere public, such as... here. > Speak your mind, write your true self. > > Welcome Travis. Tell us something about thee and thy interests. > > spike > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Mar 23 19:55:28 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2024 12:55:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] after upload, what? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 5:57?PM Travis Porco via extropy-chat wrote: Snip > Forgive me for delurking, but perhaps the time has come to ask *how* > to do an upload or upload-like activity right now, today, with > existing technology.. Current technology is not up to the task. It will take nanotechnology. 18 years ago I described it in the story I posted recently. "This time the nanomachines didn't infiltrate her brain just to shut it down, though they did that and reversed the mild damage from shock and low blood flow. The nanomachines mapped out all her neural circuits and cell connections. Shortly before her parents entered the clinic the next day they tentatively restored consciousness, partly in her brain--which was far below the temperature needed to run on its own--and partly in the haze of nanomachines that were also simulating input in place of her eyes and ears." **** "A few hours before her parents were to come on the last day, Zaba warmed up her body under Suskulan's guidance. Her consciousness was continuous as the reactivated brain cells took over from the slowed down swarm of nano computers that had been simulating them. The support and information umbilical connections withdrew and the holes in her skin closed seamlessly as Zaba started breathing for the first time in 9 days. "She sat up and coughed a few times. Her physical body was different from what she had experienced for the past subjective 90 days. Better? Worse? She could not decide. " > .extracting enough memory and identity to > generate an authorized continuing agent for yourself, without being > distracted by worries about whether it is "really you" and so forth. > As I follow these discussions I find the philosophical worries merely > lead to inaction, and in some cases, contain elements dismissive of > the value of lives. It is my opinion and I wrote it into the story, that people should be able to move their minds to and from an uploaded state without even a break in consciousness. Personally, I am not interested in uploading until it is bidirectional. Keith > --tcp > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Mar 23 21:08:14 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2024 14:08:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Vernor Vinge 1944-2024 In-Reply-To: References: <888ae340f5e9684d8b850e9441de57ff@ultimax.com> Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Date: Sat, Mar 23, 2024 at 1:38?PM Subject: Fwd: Vernor Vinge 1944-2024 To: Dear Keith, the Extropians may not know about this yet. You can pass along the sad news. Robert / K3 -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Vernor Vinge 1944-2024 Date: 2024-03-23 16:03 From: robot at ultimax.com To: hackers-l at lists.hackersconference.org [sorry for the tardy news - I tried to post this Thursday lunchtime when I learned of Vernor's passing from MaryE via the AMW listserver, but some glitch at my provider prevented me from completing the action. Also, I haven't seen a digest for like, a week. ] *** Once again -- God *damn* it. Died late yesterday as I understand it. I didn't see today's digest early this morning, so sorry for being the bearer of bad news. I'm sure those of you who knew him are heartbroken too. This is happening much too much. the wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernor_Vinge story on https://file770.com/vernor-vinge-1944-2024/ tribute by David Brin on LinkedIn, which he crossposted to F/B: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7176439580433215488/ Greetings from NASA HQ in DC. The cherry blossoms are peaking. Had I been aware of this news in real time, I'd have ordered a shot and flung it into the Tidal Basin. K3TVO K3TVO From brent.allsop at gmail.com Sun Mar 24 12:32:57 2024 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2024 06:32:57 -0600 Subject: [ExI] after upload, what? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 23, 2024 at 1:56?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 5:57?PM Travis Porco via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > .extracting enough memory and identity to > > generate an authorized continuing agent for yourself, without being > > distracted by worries about whether it is "really you" and so forth. > > As I follow these discussions I find the philosophical worries merely > > lead to inaction, and in some cases, contain elements dismissive of > > the value of lives. > > It is my opinion and I wrote it into the story, that people should be > able to move their minds to and from an uploaded state without even a > break in consciousness. Personally, I am not interested in uploading > until it is bidirectional. > > Keith > Thanks for sharing this, Keith. I think it'd be so great to be able to track what people currently believe on things like this. We've started a topic on this and so far 10 people have indicated how they feel on this kind of stuff. Topic: Value Uploading . I'm in the "Phenomenal Uploading " camp which is a supporting sub camp of the yes camp. Keith, I think we will eventually get to what you are describing, but I also think you are missing a few things which will be possible on the way there. Would you consider yourself a functionalist, like most people here, in that things like subjective color quality experience can arise from any simulation "functioning" the same? And what do you imagine "going both ways" would be like? How could this be done? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Mar 24 13:31:46 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2024 13:31:46 +0000 Subject: [ExI] after upload, what? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Mar 2024 at 19:58, Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > It is my opinion and I wrote it into the story, that people should be > able to move their minds to and from an uploaded state without even a > break in consciousness. Personally, I am not interested in uploading > until it is bidirectional. > > Keith > _______________________________________________ > I asked Claude about reversible mind-uploading. First, I asked the basics - Assuming mind uploading becomes possible, how does this affect mind-body philosophy? Claude - The possibility of mind uploading has significant implications for mind-body philosophy and challenges some traditional views while lending support to others. Let's explore the key impacts: 1. Challenges to materialism and identity theory: Mind uploading poses a direct challenge to strict materialist views like identity theory, which hold that mental states are identical to physical brain states. If minds can be uploaded and instantiated in different physical substrates (like computers), it suggests that the mind is not strictly identical to the brain. The same mind could be realized in different physical systems, undermining the idea that particular mental states correspond to particular brain states. 2. Support for dualist views: Conversely, mind uploading lends support to dualist philosophies like substance dualism or property dualism. These views hold that the mind is a distinct substance or property from the physical body. If minds can exist independently of biological brains/bodies in a digital substrate, it implies that the mind is something separate and distinct from the physical brain. Mind uploading suggests the mind could be a distinct entity or property that is not reducible to the physical. 3. Questions of continuity and identity: Mind uploading raises deep questions about the persistence of personal identity and the self. Would an uploaded mind be a continuation of the original person with an unbroken chain of psychological continuity? Or would it merely be a copy or replica of the original person's mind? There's a question of whether subjective experience would continue for the person upon uploading, or if they would simply be creating a copy while their own stream of consciousness ends. 4. The hard problem of consciousness: Even if we can replicate the information processing of the brain, would an uploaded mind have genuine subjective conscious experience? Or would it be a "philosophical zombie" that behaves like a conscious being but lacks inner experience? Mind uploading brings up the "hard problem" of consciousness and the challenge of explaining subjective experience in physical or functional terms. It's unclear if computational replication is sufficient for replicating qualia and first-person inner life. Some key open questions to ponder: - Is the mind purely information processing that can be replicated in other substrates? Or does the physical substrate and implementation matter? - If a mind is uploaded, is that the same individual with continuity of consciousness? Or is it a mere copy while the original person's experience ends? - Can multiple copies of the same mind be created, and would these be distinct individuals or the same person? - Is behavioral and functional replication of a mind enough, or is genuine subjective experience also required for it to truly be a "mind"? In conclusion, mind uploading is a fascinating thought experiment that challenges traditional mind-body philosophies. It puts pressure on strict materialism and lends some support to dualist intuitions. But it also raises profound questions about identity, consciousness, and whether the mind is tied to a specific physical substrate. Grappling with these questions pushes us to refine our philosophical theories of mind. While we don't have definite answers yet, the possibility of mind uploading motivates us to think deeply about the nature of the mind and its relation to the body and brain. ------------------------ Then, I asked about reversible mind-uploading - If mind uploading becomes possible, could the process be reversible? Claude - The question of whether mind uploading could be a reversible process is a fascinating one with significant implications for our understanding of the mind-body relationship. Let's explore this idea further. Reversibility of mind uploading would mean that a mind could be uploaded from a biological brain into a digital substrate (like a computer), and then later downloaded back into a biological brain. This would involve mapping the structure and function of the brain, replicating it digitally, and then using that digital information to reconstitute the mind in a biological substrate. Arguments for reversibility: 1. Information preservation: If the uploading process captures all the relevant information about the structure and function of the brain, and this information is preserved in the digital substrate, then in principle, it should be possible to use that information to recreate the mind in a biological brain. 2. Technological advancement: With sufficient technological progress in areas like brain-computer interfaces, nanotechnology, and tissue engineering, it might become feasible to create a new biological brain and body that can receive the downloaded mind. 3. Substrate independence: If the mind is essentially a pattern of information processing that can be realized in different substrates, then there's no principled reason why it couldn't be moved back and forth between digital and biological substrates. Arguments against reversibility: 1. Complexity and resolution: The human brain is extremely complex, and it's unclear if we could ever capture all the relevant information at a sufficient resolution to enable a complete and faithful reconstruction of the mind in a new biological substrate. 2. Continuity of consciousness: Even if we could recreate the mind in a new biological brain, there are questions about whether this would preserve continuity of consciousness and personal identity. Would the reconstructed mind be the same individual or a new person with the same memories and personality? 3. Embodiment and environmental factors: The mind is shaped by the specific body and environment in which it is embedded. A mind that has been uploaded and then downloaded into a new body might have a very different experience of the world, which could affect its mental states and sense of self. Open questions to ponder: - If a mind is uploaded and then downloaded into a new biological brain, would it have a continuous sense of self and a feeling of "waking up" in the new body? - How might the experience of disembodiment and re-embodiment in a new physical form affect the mind's perception of itself and the world? - If reversible mind uploading is possible, does that mean the essence of a person is just information that can be copied and instantiated in different substrates? What does this imply for our notions of identity and individuality? In conclusion, the reversibility of mind uploading is a thought-provoking idea that challenges our intuitions about the relationship between mind, body, and identity. While there are arguments for the theoretical possibility of reversible uploading, there are also significant challenges and open questions. Ultimately, the question of reversibility pushes us to think deeply about the nature of the self, the role of embodiment in shaping the mind, and the potential for technology to transform our understanding of what it means to be human. Whether or not reversible mind uploading ever becomes a reality, grappling with these questions can enrich our philosophical thinking about the mind-body problem. -------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun Mar 24 17:17:52 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2024 10:17:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] after upload, what? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 24, 2024 at 5:34?AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat wrote: snip > Keith, I think we will eventually get to what you are describing, but I also think you are missing a few things which will be possible on the way there. > > Would you consider yourself a functionalist, like most people here, in that things like subjective color quality experience can arise from any simulation "functioning" the same? I am not sure what you mean. > And what do you imagine "going both ways" would be like? How could this be done? > I wrote about what happened to Zaba in considerable high level detail. I posted the whole story last week. And in the post you are replying to I quoted the paragraphs describing how Zabe went into and came out of the uploaded state. Go back and reread the post you are replying to. If you did, I have no idea why you are asking these questions. Keith > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From pharos at gmail.com Sun Mar 24 18:19:42 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2024 18:19:42 +0000 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?LimX_Dynamics=E2=80=99_Biped_Robot_P1_Conquers_t?= =?utf-8?q?he_Wild?= Message-ID: LimX Dynamics? Biped Robot P1 Conquers the Wild Based on Reinforcement Learning Mar 15, 2024 Based on Reinforcement Learning (RL), LimX Dynamics? Biped Robot P1 ventured into Tanglang Mountain* in Shenzhen for the first time. Includes 2,50 min video. --------------- Impressive performance, wandering about in rough country on two robot legs. BillK From brent.allsop at gmail.com Sun Mar 24 22:09:38 2024 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2024 16:09:38 -0600 Subject: [ExI] after upload, what? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh, this is very interesting. Claud seems to be realizing what I've finally realized. That functionalism isn't necessarily different from substance dualism, since according to functionalists, subjective experience is something separate and independent from any particular physical substrate. The same as predicted by substance dualism. One of these days I'll have to have a discussion with Claud, and teach him about computational binding, which I predict would improve his reasoning about all these kinds of implications. On Sun, Mar 24, 2024 at 7:33?AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sat, 23 Mar 2024 at 19:58, Keith Henson via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> > >> It is my opinion and I wrote it into the story, that people should be >> able to move their minds to and from an uploaded state without even a >> break in consciousness. Personally, I am not interested in uploading >> until it is bidirectional. >> >> Keith >> _______________________________________________ >> > > > I asked Claude about reversible mind-uploading. > > First, I asked the basics - > Assuming mind uploading becomes possible, how does this affect mind-body > philosophy? > > Claude - > The possibility of mind uploading has significant implications for > mind-body philosophy and challenges some traditional views while lending > support to others. Let's explore the key impacts: > > 1. Challenges to materialism and identity theory: > Mind uploading poses a direct challenge to strict materialist views like > identity theory, which hold that mental states are identical to physical > brain states. If minds can be uploaded and instantiated in different > physical substrates (like computers), it suggests that the mind is not > strictly identical to the brain. The same mind could be realized in > different physical systems, undermining the idea that particular mental > states correspond to particular brain states. > > 2. Support for dualist views: > Conversely, mind uploading lends support to dualist philosophies like > substance dualism or property dualism. These views hold that the mind is a > distinct substance or property from the physical body. If minds can exist > independently of biological brains/bodies in a digital substrate, it > implies that the mind is something separate and distinct from the physical > brain. Mind uploading suggests the mind could be a distinct entity or > property that is not reducible to the physical. > > 3. Questions of continuity and identity: > Mind uploading raises deep questions about the persistence of personal > identity and the self. Would an uploaded mind be a continuation of the > original person with an unbroken chain of psychological continuity? Or > would it merely be a copy or replica of the original person's mind? There's > a question of whether subjective experience would continue for the person > upon uploading, or if they would simply be creating a copy while their own > stream of consciousness ends. > > 4. The hard problem of consciousness: > Even if we can replicate the information processing of the brain, would an > uploaded mind have genuine subjective conscious experience? Or would it be > a "philosophical zombie" that behaves like a conscious being but lacks > inner experience? Mind uploading brings up the "hard problem" of > consciousness and the challenge of explaining subjective experience in > physical or functional terms. It's unclear if computational replication is > sufficient for replicating qualia and first-person inner life. > > Some key open questions to ponder: > - Is the mind purely information processing that can be replicated in > other substrates? Or does the physical substrate and implementation matter? > - If a mind is uploaded, is that the same individual with continuity of > consciousness? Or is it a mere copy while the original person's experience > ends? > - Can multiple copies of the same mind be created, and would these be > distinct individuals or the same person? > - Is behavioral and functional replication of a mind enough, or is genuine > subjective experience also required for it to truly be a "mind"? > > In conclusion, mind uploading is a fascinating thought experiment that > challenges traditional mind-body philosophies. It puts pressure on strict > materialism and lends some support to dualist intuitions. But it also > raises profound questions about identity, consciousness, and whether the > mind is tied to a specific physical substrate. Grappling with these > questions pushes us to refine our philosophical theories of mind. While we > don't have definite answers yet, the possibility of mind uploading > motivates us to think deeply about the nature of the mind and its relation > to the body and brain. > ------------------------ > > Then, I asked about reversible mind-uploading - > If mind uploading becomes possible, could the process be reversible? > > Claude - > The question of whether mind uploading could be a reversible process is a > fascinating one with significant implications for our understanding of the > mind-body relationship. Let's explore this idea further. > > Reversibility of mind uploading would mean that a mind could be uploaded > from a biological brain into a digital substrate (like a computer), and > then later downloaded back into a biological brain. This would involve > mapping the structure and function of the brain, replicating it digitally, > and then using that digital information to reconstitute the mind in a > biological substrate. > > Arguments for reversibility: > > 1. Information preservation: If the uploading process captures all the > relevant information about the structure and function of the brain, and > this information is preserved in the digital substrate, then in principle, > it should be possible to use that information to recreate the mind in a > biological brain. > > 2. Technological advancement: With sufficient technological progress in > areas like brain-computer interfaces, nanotechnology, and tissue > engineering, it might become feasible to create a new biological brain and > body that can receive the downloaded mind. > > 3. Substrate independence: If the mind is essentially a pattern of > information processing that can be realized in different substrates, then > there's no principled reason why it couldn't be moved back and forth > between digital and biological substrates. > > Arguments against reversibility: > > 1. Complexity and resolution: The human brain is extremely complex, and > it's unclear if we could ever capture all the relevant information at a > sufficient resolution to enable a complete and faithful reconstruction of > the mind in a new biological substrate. > > 2. Continuity of consciousness: Even if we could recreate the mind in a > new biological brain, there are questions about whether this would preserve > continuity of consciousness and personal identity. Would the reconstructed > mind be the same individual or a new person with the same memories and > personality? > > 3. Embodiment and environmental factors: The mind is shaped by the > specific body and environment in which it is embedded. A mind that has been > uploaded and then downloaded into a new body might have a very different > experience of the world, which could affect its mental states and sense of > self. > > Open questions to ponder: > - If a mind is uploaded and then downloaded into a new biological brain, > would it have a continuous sense of self and a feeling of "waking up" in > the new body? > - How might the experience of disembodiment and re-embodiment in a new > physical form affect the mind's perception of itself and the world? > - If reversible mind uploading is possible, does that mean the essence of > a person is just information that can be copied and instantiated in > different substrates? What does this imply for our notions of identity and > individuality? > > In conclusion, the reversibility of mind uploading is a thought-provoking > idea that challenges our intuitions about the relationship between mind, > body, and identity. While there are arguments for the theoretical > possibility of reversible uploading, there are also significant challenges > and open questions. Ultimately, the question of reversibility pushes us to > think deeply about the nature of the self, the role of embodiment in > shaping the mind, and the potential for technology to transform our > understanding of what it means to be human. Whether or not reversible mind > uploading ever becomes a reality, grappling with these questions can enrich > our philosophical thinking about the mind-body problem. > -------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Mar 24 23:58:52 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2024 23:58:52 +0000 Subject: [ExI] after upload, what? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Mar 2024 at 22:12, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat wrote: > > Oh, this is very interesting. > > Claud seems to be realizing what I've finally realized. That functionalism isn't necessarily different from substance dualism, since according to functionalists, subjective experience is something separate and independent from any particular physical substrate. The same as predicted by substance dualism. > > One of these days I'll have to have a discussion with Claud, and teach him about computational binding, which I predict would improve his reasoning about all these kinds of implications. > _______________________________________________ I asked Claude - Is functionalism similar to substance dualism? Claude - Functionalism and substance dualism are two distinct philosophical theories of mind, but they do share some similarities in how they approach the mind-body problem. Let's briefly examine each and then compare and contrast them: Substance dualism, advocated by philosophers like Descartes, holds that the mind is a non-physical substance distinct from the physical body. Under this view, the mind is not reducible to the brain and can exist independently of it. The main argument for dualism is that the subjective, qualitative nature of consciousness seems very different from objective, quantifiable physical processes. Functionalism, on the other hand, defines mental states not by what they are made of, but by the functional role they play in a cognitive system. A mental state like a belief or desire is defined by its causal relationships to sensory inputs, behavioral outputs, and other mental states. The key idea is that the mind is more like software running on the hardware of the brain. So while dualism says the mind is a separate non-physical substance, functionalism is open to the mind being physically realized in the brain. Where they are similar is in not identifying the mind with any particular physical implementation. For the dualist, this is because the mind is non-physical. But for the functionalist, even if the mind is physical, what makes a mental state the type of state it is (e.g. a belief) is not its specific physical basis, but the functional role it plays. Some questions to ponder: Can functionalism better explain how the mind causally interacts with the physical body and world? Is there an unbridgeable "explanatory gap" between objective brain processes and subjective experience that only dualism acknowledges? Or is the idea of a non-physical mind incoherent and unscientific? These are deep metaphysical issues at the heart of the mind-body problem in philosophy of mind. While dualism and functionalism differ in key ways, their similarities highlight how slippery and difficult to explain the nature of the mind is. Both try to "carve off" the mental from the physical in some way, with dualism making a stronger metaphysical distinction. Examining their relative merits and flaws can sharpen our thinking about the relationship between mind and matter. --------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Mon Mar 25 00:23:18 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2024 00:23:18 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Is the intention to make all cars self-driving? Message-ID: This article is an enjoyable rant about how cars are being computerised so that eventually they will be unable to break any of the hundreds of traffic laws. BillK Quotes: Would You Still Want to Drive . . . By eric peters March 24, 2024 What if you had to obey ? to the letter ? every single traffic law, from no-right-on red to no-passing if the pass requires ?speeding,? even a little bit? How about no ?speeding,? ever? You drive the speed limit, period. No faster, ever. Imagine your car enforcing traffic laws ? by not allowing you to ignore them. Well, that?s coming. ------------------ From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 25 01:01:46 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2024 18:01:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?LimX_Dynamics=E2=80=99_Biped_Robot_P1_Conquers_t?= =?utf-8?q?he_Wild?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <009c01da7e50$02e9c850$08bd58f0$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat . Includes 2,50 min video. --------------- >...Impressive performance, wandering about in rough country on two robot legs. BillK _______________________________________________ Cool! We will have robot servants soon. Thx Billk. It will be interesting to see how predators will react to these things. I suppose they would treat it as a bird. spike From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Mon Mar 25 01:41:06 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2024 18:41:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarians nominate none of these In-Reply-To: References: <00d101da5ac0$4bbb2eb0$e3318c10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:54?AM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Wed, Mar 20, 2024 at 5:29?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: snip >> A political party based on evolutionary psychology would be interesting, though not many people can understand it. > > I feel like I have a good enough grasp on evolutionary psychology, but I have a profound failure of imagination when it comes to creating a political party based on those terms. Could you perhaps elaborate? I would have a much better idea of what two parties based upon cats and dogs would look like. It would depend on the goals of the political party, but the path to those goals would be guided by EP. Keith > -Kelly > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 25 02:42:59 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2024 19:42:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is the intention to make all cars self-driving? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00ee01da7e5e$26f97840$74ec68c0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Is the intention to make all cars self-driving? >...This article is an enjoyable rant about how cars are being computerised so that eventually they will be unable to break any of the hundreds of traffic laws. BillK Quotes: Would You Still Want to Drive . . . By eric peters March 24, 2024 ------------------ _______________________________________________ BillK, think of the savings. I am keeping my 21 and 16 year old cars running, because they don't have all that electronic stuff on it. I save bigtime. Side note, since you brought it up: I go to the annual car show in San Jose most years because I am one who likes cars. Recently the car companies introduced a bunch of all-electric vehicles. I noticed something interesting: the car enthusiast crowd ignores them. They crowd around the dino burners, gaze lovingly under the hood, study the numbers. The EVs are lucky to get anything more than a passing glance. My best guess: the EVs are still selling, but the car-loving crowd isn't buying them. But hey, we save money. Such a deal. spike From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 25 02:52:58 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2024 19:52:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarians nominate none of these In-Reply-To: References: <00d101da5ac0$4bbb2eb0$e3318c10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00f401da7e5f$8bec4100$a3c4c300$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat ... >...It would depend on the goals of the political party, but the path to those goals would be guided by EP. Keith _______________________________________________ Keith, before you take the idea too far, consider a discouraging observation. We are going into a very unique election cycle in which both of the mainstream contenders are very well known, so neither really needs campaign contributions, both mainstream contenders are considered too old for the job, both mainstream contenders have serious legal problems, both mainstream contenders are soundly hated by most voters and both mainstream parties are deeply divided, with factions incompatible with each other within the same party. The third parties have a realistic chance for the first time in... our lifetimes really. Now we look around and find that the Libertarian party and Green party are not just as divided, they are more so. Right when these smaller parties have a chance if they can find a credible candidate, both of those parties find themselves just as fractured and internally incompatible as the big guys, both of the bigger minors failing to find anyone compelling, and even if they did, they couldn't agree on that compelling candidate. I was hoping both Libertarian and Green would span the gap this year. Now, it isn't clear either party will. Sigh. spike From efc at swisscows.email Mon Mar 25 08:42:58 2024 From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2024 09:42:58 +0100 (CET) Subject: [ExI] Is the intention to make all cars self-driving? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Mar 2024, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > This article is an enjoyable rant about how cars are being > computerised so that eventually they will be unable to break any of > the hundreds of traffic laws. > BillK Sounds like a recipe for killing infants, crashing into deers, people etc. in order not to break the traffic laws. ;) Jokes aside, I would be much more impressed if the cars where programmed to realize when it would be rational to break laws in order to minimize harm. Best regards, Daniel > > Quotes: > Would You Still Want to Drive . . . > By eric peters March 24, 2024 > > What if you had to obey ? to the letter ? every single traffic law, > from no-right-on red to no-passing if the pass requires ?speeding,? > even a little bit? How about no ?speeding,? ever? You drive the speed > limit, period. > > No faster, ever. > > Imagine your car enforcing traffic laws ? by not allowing you to > ignore them. Well, that?s coming. > ------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From efc at swisscows.email Mon Mar 25 08:45:49 2024 From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2024 09:45:49 +0100 (CET) Subject: [ExI] libertarians nominate none of these In-Reply-To: <00f401da7e5f$8bec4100$a3c4c300$@rainier66.com> References: <00d101da5ac0$4bbb2eb0$e3318c10$@rainier66.com> <00f401da7e5f$8bec4100$a3c4c300$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <7d683b14-38e6-d055-b6d4-f72a05396b6d@swisscows.email> On Sun, 24 Mar 2024, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > Now we look around and find that the Libertarian party and Green party > are not just as divided, they are more so. Right when these smaller > parties have a chance if they can find a credible candidate, both of > those parties find themselves just as fractured and internally > incompatible as the big guys, both of the bigger minors failing to > find anyone compelling, and even if they did, they couldn't agree on > that compelling candidate. I was hoping both Libertarian and Green > would span the gap this year. Now, it isn't clear either party will. Is this built into the culture of the libertarian party or is it just that the libertarian party has never had any good leadership? Or is it that the existing political system, over time, has been built in such a way as to exclude any others besides the big 2? Best regards, Daniel > > Sigh. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing > list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > From jasonresch at gmail.com Mon Mar 25 09:13:16 2024 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2024 05:13:16 -0400 Subject: [ExI] [TIQ] Re: after upload, what? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Note the same is true of physicalism: Hundreds of billions of neutrinos pass through your brain every second. Consider then that your conscious state is independent of any particular neutrino state of your brain. The neutrino state is part of the physical state of your brain, yet your consciousness is not affected by its neutrino state. Thus even in physicalism, You have multiple different physical brain states which result in the same conscious state. So again consciousness is independent of the physical brain state. Does this fact make physicalism a form of dualism? Jason On Sun, Mar 24, 2024, 6:09 PM Brent Allsop wrote: > > Oh, this is very interesting. > > Claud seems to be realizing what I've finally realized. That > functionalism isn't necessarily different from substance dualism, since > according to functionalists, subjective experience is something > separate and independent from any particular physical substrate. The same > as predicted by substance dualism. > > One of these days I'll have to have a discussion with Claud, and teach him > about computational binding, which I predict would improve his reasoning > about all these kinds of implications. > > > > On Sun, Mar 24, 2024 at 7:33?AM BillK via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Sat, 23 Mar 2024 at 19:58, Keith Henson via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >> >>> It is my opinion and I wrote it into the story, that people should be >>> able to move their minds to and from an uploaded state without even a >>> break in consciousness. Personally, I am not interested in uploading >>> until it is bidirectional. >>> >>> Keith >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >> >> >> I asked Claude about reversible mind-uploading. >> >> First, I asked the basics - >> Assuming mind uploading becomes possible, how does this affect >> mind-body philosophy? >> >> Claude - >> The possibility of mind uploading has significant implications for >> mind-body philosophy and challenges some traditional views while lending >> support to others. Let's explore the key impacts: >> >> 1. Challenges to materialism and identity theory: >> Mind uploading poses a direct challenge to strict materialist views like >> identity theory, which hold that mental states are identical to physical >> brain states. If minds can be uploaded and instantiated in different >> physical substrates (like computers), it suggests that the mind is not >> strictly identical to the brain. The same mind could be realized in >> different physical systems, undermining the idea that particular mental >> states correspond to particular brain states. >> >> 2. Support for dualist views: >> Conversely, mind uploading lends support to dualist philosophies like >> substance dualism or property dualism. These views hold that the mind is a >> distinct substance or property from the physical body. If minds can exist >> independently of biological brains/bodies in a digital substrate, it >> implies that the mind is something separate and distinct from the physical >> brain. Mind uploading suggests the mind could be a distinct entity or >> property that is not reducible to the physical. >> >> 3. Questions of continuity and identity: >> Mind uploading raises deep questions about the persistence of personal >> identity and the self. Would an uploaded mind be a continuation of the >> original person with an unbroken chain of psychological continuity? Or >> would it merely be a copy or replica of the original person's mind? There's >> a question of whether subjective experience would continue for the person >> upon uploading, or if they would simply be creating a copy while their own >> stream of consciousness ends. >> >> 4. The hard problem of consciousness: >> Even if we can replicate the information processing of the brain, would >> an uploaded mind have genuine subjective conscious experience? Or would it >> be a "philosophical zombie" that behaves like a conscious being but lacks >> inner experience? Mind uploading brings up the "hard problem" of >> consciousness and the challenge of explaining subjective experience in >> physical or functional terms. It's unclear if computational replication is >> sufficient for replicating qualia and first-person inner life. >> >> Some key open questions to ponder: >> - Is the mind purely information processing that can be replicated in >> other substrates? Or does the physical substrate and implementation matter? >> - If a mind is uploaded, is that the same individual with continuity of >> consciousness? Or is it a mere copy while the original person's experience >> ends? >> - Can multiple copies of the same mind be created, and would these be >> distinct individuals or the same person? >> - Is behavioral and functional replication of a mind enough, or is >> genuine subjective experience also required for it to truly be a "mind"? >> >> In conclusion, mind uploading is a fascinating thought experiment that >> challenges traditional mind-body philosophies. It puts pressure on strict >> materialism and lends some support to dualist intuitions. But it also >> raises profound questions about identity, consciousness, and whether the >> mind is tied to a specific physical substrate. Grappling with these >> questions pushes us to refine our philosophical theories of mind. While we >> don't have definite answers yet, the possibility of mind uploading >> motivates us to think deeply about the nature of the mind and its relation >> to the body and brain. >> ------------------------ >> >> Then, I asked about reversible mind-uploading - >> If mind uploading becomes possible, could the process be reversible? >> >> Claude - >> The question of whether mind uploading could be a reversible process is a >> fascinating one with significant implications for our understanding of the >> mind-body relationship. Let's explore this idea further. >> >> Reversibility of mind uploading would mean that a mind could be uploaded >> from a biological brain into a digital substrate (like a computer), and >> then later downloaded back into a biological brain. This would involve >> mapping the structure and function of the brain, replicating it digitally, >> and then using that digital information to reconstitute the mind in a >> biological substrate. >> >> Arguments for reversibility: >> >> 1. Information preservation: If the uploading process captures all the >> relevant information about the structure and function of the brain, and >> this information is preserved in the digital substrate, then in principle, >> it should be possible to use that information to recreate the mind in a >> biological brain. >> >> 2. Technological advancement: With sufficient technological progress in >> areas like brain-computer interfaces, nanotechnology, and tissue >> engineering, it might become feasible to create a new biological brain and >> body that can receive the downloaded mind. >> >> 3. Substrate independence: If the mind is essentially a pattern of >> information processing that can be realized in different substrates, then >> there's no principled reason why it couldn't be moved back and forth >> between digital and biological substrates. >> >> Arguments against reversibility: >> >> 1. Complexity and resolution: The human brain is extremely complex, and >> it's unclear if we could ever capture all the relevant information at a >> sufficient resolution to enable a complete and faithful reconstruction of >> the mind in a new biological substrate. >> >> 2. Continuity of consciousness: Even if we could recreate the mind in a >> new biological brain, there are questions about whether this would preserve >> continuity of consciousness and personal identity. Would the reconstructed >> mind be the same individual or a new person with the same memories and >> personality? >> >> 3. Embodiment and environmental factors: The mind is shaped by the >> specific body and environment in which it is embedded. A mind that has been >> uploaded and then downloaded into a new body might have a very different >> experience of the world, which could affect its mental states and sense of >> self. >> >> Open questions to ponder: >> - If a mind is uploaded and then downloaded into a new biological brain, >> would it have a continuous sense of self and a feeling of "waking up" in >> the new body? >> - How might the experience of disembodiment and re-embodiment in a new >> physical form affect the mind's perception of itself and the world? >> - If reversible mind uploading is possible, does that mean the essence of >> a person is just information that can be copied and instantiated in >> different substrates? What does this imply for our notions of identity and >> individuality? >> >> In conclusion, the reversibility of mind uploading is a thought-provoking >> idea that challenges our intuitions about the relationship between mind, >> body, and identity. While there are arguments for the theoretical >> possibility of reversible uploading, there are also significant challenges >> and open questions. Ultimately, the question of reversibility pushes us to >> think deeply about the nature of the self, the role of embodiment in >> shaping the mind, and the potential for technology to transform our >> understanding of what it means to be human. Whether or not reversible mind >> uploading ever becomes a reality, grappling with these questions can enrich >> our philosophical thinking about the mind-body problem. >> -------------------------- >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "The Important Questions" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to the-important-questions+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/the-important-questions/CAK7-onudeLjSVDDxbt2GjgZQ8WNphYmegRt96U%3DPqomPf8SN9Q%40mail.gmail.com > > . > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Mon Mar 25 13:18:15 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2024 13:18:15 +0000 Subject: [ExI] [TIQ] Re: after upload, what? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Mar 2024 at 09:15, Jason Resch via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Note the same is true of physicalism: > > Hundreds of billions of neutrinos pass through your brain every second. Consider then that your conscious state is independent of any particular neutrino state of your brain. > The neutrino state is part of the physical state of your brain, yet your consciousness is not affected by its neutrino state. Thus even in physicalism, You have multiple different physical brain states which result in the same conscious state. So again consciousness is independent of the physical brain state. > > Does this fact make physicalism a form of dualism? > > Jason > _______________________________________________ First, I asked Claude about physicalism - How does physicalism compare to substance dualism? Claude - Physicalism and substance dualism represent two contrasting philosophical perspectives on the nature of reality, particularly concerning the relationship between the physical and the mental. Physicalism is the view that everything in the universe, including mental states and processes, can be explained in terms of physical entities, properties, and interactions. According to physicalists, the mind is not a separate substance but rather emerges from or is identical to physical processes in the brain. The main argument for physicalism is that it aligns with the scientific worldview and provides a parsimonious explanation for mental phenomena without requiring additional, non-physical substances. On the other hand, substance dualism, famously advocated by Ren? Descartes, holds that the universe consists of two fundamentally distinct kinds of substances: physical (matter) and mental (mind). Dualists argue that mental states and processes cannot be reduced to or explained by physical processes alone. They maintain that the subjective, first-person nature of consciousness and the apparent non-physical properties of thoughts and qualia (subjective experiences) suggest that the mind is a separate, non-physical substance that interacts with the physical body. The main challenge for substance dualism is explaining how a non-physical mind can causally interact with a physical body, known as the "mind-body problem." Physicalists argue that dualism is incompatible with the scientific understanding of the world and that it fails to provide a convincing mechanism for mind-body interaction. To encourage critical thinking, consider the following questions: 1. Can the subjective nature of consciousness be fully explained by physical processes in the brain, or does it require a non-physical explanation? 2. How might advancements in neuroscience and our understanding of the brain impact the debate between physicalism and dualism? Ultimately, the debate between physicalism and substance dualism continues to be a central issue in the philosophy of mind, with implications for our understanding of consciousness, personal identity, and the nature of reality itself. --------- Then I asked Claude - Are there any alternative philosophical perspectives that could reconcile the apparent differences between mental and physical phenomena? Claude - Yes, there are several alternative philosophical perspectives that attempt to reconcile the apparent differences between mental and physical phenomena. These views aim to bridge the gap between the subjective, first-person nature of consciousness and the objective, third-person perspective of the physical world. Two notable examples are: 1. Property dualism: This view holds that while there is only one kind of substance (physical), there are two fundamentally different kinds of properties: physical and mental. Property dualists argue that mental properties, such as sensations, thoughts, and emotions, are not reducible to physical properties but instead emerge from or supervene on the complex organization of physical matter in the brain. This perspective maintains the unity of substance while acknowledging the unique nature of mental phenomena. 2. Neutral monism: This view, advocated by philosophers like Baruch Spinoza and William James, proposes that the ultimate reality is neither mental nor physical but instead consists of a single, neutral substance that can manifest as either mental or physical depending on the context. According to neutral monism, the mental and the physical are two aspects or descriptions of the same underlying reality. This perspective dissolves the mind-body problem by denying the fundamental distinction between the mental and the physical. These alternative views attempt to provide a more nuanced understanding of the relationship between the mental and the physical, avoiding the pitfalls of both strict physicalism and substance dualism. However, they also face challenges and criticisms. Consider the following questions: 1. Can property dualism provide a satisfactory explanation for how non-physical mental properties can arise from or interact with physical properties? 2. Does neutral monism offer a compelling and coherent account of the nature of the underlying neutral substance and how it relates to our experience of the mental and the physical? 3. Are there empirical findings from neuroscience, psychology, or physics that could help to adjudicate between these different philosophical perspectives? As with many philosophical debates, there is no definitive consensus on which view is correct. Each perspective has its strengths and weaknesses, and the exploration of these ideas continues to enrich our understanding of the nature of mind and reality. ------------------ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Mon Mar 25 17:09:02 2024 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2024 13:09:02 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is the intention to make all cars self-driving? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <66194ED3-EB12-4FD6-A271-4BE2D8497345@alumni.virginia.edu> FWIW, my fully self driving (beta) Tesla is not fully law-abiding. I tell it how much over the speed limit I want it to go (or not) when self-driving. It will thus break the law under my direction. Yet it will always stop if it sees a pedestrian or bike cross the street, for example. Now, it will penalize me by giving me a ?strike? and disabling fully self driving for the remainder of that trip if, for example, I exceed the speed limit by overriding fully self driving with the gas pedal by more than 10 mph. After five strikes, FSD is disabled for a week. Not a huge deal but meant to deter reckless behavior while in FSD mode. I appreciate it that the car will defer to my judgment in many cases such that I can override or turn off FSD anytime I want. Current FSD v12 is conservative and cautious, hesitates when in doubt which I can also appreciate. It errs on the side of caution now. Programming a utilitarian function such that there is a conditional stating under what circumstances it would be okay to break the law sounds complicated, philosophically and technically. However, AI and or machine learning might be able to figure that out. Both have impressed me so far. FSD v12 was programmed with a neural net and is not ?rules-based,? so who know what its limits are just yet. -Henry > On Mar 25, 2024, at 4:43?AM, efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > >> On Mon, 25 Mar 2024, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> This article is an enjoyable rant about how cars are being >> computerised so that eventually they will be unable to break any of >> the hundreds of traffic laws. >> BillK > > Sounds like a recipe for killing infants, crashing into deers, people etc. in order not to break the traffic laws. ;) > > Jokes aside, I would be much more impressed if the cars where programmed to realize when it would be rational to break laws in order to minimize harm. > > Best regards, > Daniel > > >> >> Quotes: >> Would You Still Want to Drive . . . >> By eric peters March 24, 2024 >> >> What if you had to obey ? to the letter ? every single traffic law, >> from no-right-on red to no-passing if the pass requires ?speeding,? >> even a little bit? How about no ?speeding,? ever? You drive the speed >> limit, period. >> >> No faster, ever. >> >> Imagine your car enforcing traffic laws ? by not allowing you to >> ignore them. Well, that?s coming. >> ------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Mon Mar 25 18:39:29 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2024 11:39:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarians nominate none of these In-Reply-To: <00f401da7e5f$8bec4100$a3c4c300$@rainier66.com> References: <00d101da5ac0$4bbb2eb0$e3318c10$@rainier66.com> <00f401da7e5f$8bec4100$a3c4c300$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, if I have ever met a Green party member I don't remember it. My experience with Libertarians is 50 years out of date. About that far back I met the Libertarian candidate for president and his entourage. My impression at the time was that these people could not agree on where to have lunch. It's been a long time. Keith On Sun, Mar 24, 2024 at 7:53?PM wrote: > > > ...> On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat > ... > > >...It would depend on the goals of the political party, but the path to those goals would be guided by EP. > > Keith > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Keith, before you take the idea too far, consider a discouraging observation. We are going into a very unique election cycle in which both of the mainstream contenders are very well known, so neither really needs campaign contributions, both mainstream contenders are considered too old for the job, both mainstream contenders have serious legal problems, both mainstream contenders are soundly hated by most voters and both mainstream parties are deeply divided, with factions incompatible with each other within the same party. The third parties have a realistic chance for the first time in... our lifetimes really. > > Now we look around and find that the Libertarian party and Green party are not just as divided, they are more so. Right when these smaller parties have a chance if they can find a credible candidate, both of those parties find themselves just as fractured and internally incompatible as the big guys, both of the bigger minors failing to find anyone compelling, and even if they did, they couldn't agree on that compelling candidate. I was hoping both Libertarian and Green would span the gap this year. Now, it isn't clear either party will. > > Sigh. > > spike > From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Mon Mar 25 18:45:36 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2024 11:45:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarians nominate none of these In-Reply-To: <7d683b14-38e6-d055-b6d4-f72a05396b6d@swisscows.email> References: <00d101da5ac0$4bbb2eb0$e3318c10$@rainier66.com> <00f401da7e5f$8bec4100$a3c4c300$@rainier66.com> <7d683b14-38e6-d055-b6d4-f72a05396b6d@swisscows.email> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 25, 2024 at 1:47?AM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Sun, 24 Mar 2024, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > Now we look around and find that the Libertarian party and Green party > > are not just as divided, they are more so. Right when these smaller > > parties have a chance if they can find a credible candidate, both of > > those parties find themselves just as fractured and internally > > incompatible as the big guys, both of the bigger minors failing to > > find anyone compelling, and even if they did, they couldn't agree on > > that compelling candidate. I was hoping both Libertarian and Green > > would span the gap this year. Now, it isn't clear either party will. > > Is this built into the culture of the libertarian party or is it just > that the libertarian party has never had any good leadership? Usually when talking about the party you should capitalize. There are lot of lower case people who consider themselves lowercase libertarians. It could be built into the culture, but the people who are attracted to the ideas are just not very cooperative. > Or is it > that the existing political system, over time, has been built in such a > way as to exclude any others besides the big 2? That too. Keith > Best regards, > Daniel > > > > > > Sigh. > > > > spike > > > > > > _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing > > list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From atymes at gmail.com Mon Mar 25 18:54:58 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2024 11:54:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarians nominate none of these In-Reply-To: <7d683b14-38e6-d055-b6d4-f72a05396b6d@swisscows.email> References: <00d101da5ac0$4bbb2eb0$e3318c10$@rainier66.com> <00f401da7e5f$8bec4100$a3c4c300$@rainier66.com> <7d683b14-38e6-d055-b6d4-f72a05396b6d@swisscows.email> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 25, 2024, 1:47?AM efc--- via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Or is it > that the existing political system, over time, has been built in such a > way as to exclude any others besides the big 2? > This, pretty much. The Ds and Rs begrudgingly allow each other on the ballot (for the most part) because they know there would be trouble if they did not, but anyone else has an uphill battle just to get on the ballot, let alone to win. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 25 19:00:16 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2024 12:00:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarians nominate none of these In-Reply-To: References: <00d101da5ac0$4bbb2eb0$e3318c10$@rainier66.com> <00f401da7e5f$8bec4100$a3c4c300$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001e01da7ee6$ad46b100$07d41300$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: Keith Henson Subject: Re: [ExI] libertarians nominate none of these >...Spike, if I have ever met a Green party member I don't remember it... Ja, the Green party is an even odder mixture than Libertarians. There are preservationists, as I am, but who insist that preservation efforts must be done with private funding. Greens like big government, which makes them incompatible with Libertarians. Libertarians have the usual all drugs should be legal crowd, which makes me very nervous, the no-borders crowd, which makes me nervous, and a lot of mutually incompatible factions. >...My impression at the time was that these people could not agree on where to have lunch... Keith Very little has changed. We had a pretty good guy in 2000: Harry Browne. He even spanned the gap in Florida, and in that sense decided the election, but unfortunately no one ever heard of him, even after he managed to hand the Florida and national election to that feller whose name I cannot recall. spike From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 25 19:07:26 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2024 12:07:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarians nominate none of these In-Reply-To: References: <00d101da5ac0$4bbb2eb0$e3318c10$@rainier66.com> <00f401da7e5f$8bec4100$a3c4c300$@rainier66.com> <7d683b14-38e6-d055-b6d4-f72a05396b6d@swisscows.email> Message-ID: <002001da7ee7$ada97500$08fc5f00$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat >... lowercase libertarians. It could be built into the culture, but the people who are attracted to the ideas are just not very cooperative. Keith Ja. Somewhere in EP should be a chapter on the small class of people who actively eschew power, who do not want to control other people's lives. Such people should exist, even as anomalies. EP is about differential reproduction in favor of those whose behaviors are all the things EP predicts, but we have a few complete asexuals. I know one personally, a cousin. Obviously she has no children, but has a lifelong opposite gender partner who is also asexual. OK then. Asexuality is an anomaly. So... those who eschew power and wealth should not surprise us. I eschew power, but I am way totally cool with wealth. If one argues that wealth is a form of power, I would counterargue that on the contrary, everyone has a choice if they want to trade with me. I do not command anyone. I buy their services. We both win. Keith we live in California, which is a free state: we can vote however we feel and never worry for a minute it can have any influence on the outcome. So... I vote my conscience. I am a green libertarian, who generally votes with the Libertarian party. spike From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 25 19:10:46 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2024 12:10:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarians nominate none of these In-Reply-To: References: <00d101da5ac0$4bbb2eb0$e3318c10$@rainier66.com> <00f401da7e5f$8bec4100$a3c4c300$@rainier66.com> <7d683b14-38e6-d055-b6d4-f72a05396b6d@swisscows.email> Message-ID: <002101da7ee8$2475bfe0$6d613fa0$@rainier66.com> ?.> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] libertarians nominate none of these On Mon, Mar 25, 2024, 1:47?AM efc--- via extropy-chat > wrote: Or is it that the existing political system, over time, has been built in such a way as to exclude any others besides the big 2? >?This, pretty much. The Ds and Rs begrudgingly allow each other on the ballot (for the most part) because they know there would be trouble if they did not, but anyone else has an uphill battle just to get on the ballot, let alone to win? Adrian For Libertarians and Greens, a win is defined as spanning the gap. Your suggestion ?there would be trouble if they did not? is a subtle understatement worthy of Jeeves the gentleman?s gentleman. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Mon Mar 25 19:52:50 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2024 12:52:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarians nominate none of these In-Reply-To: <002001da7ee7$ada97500$08fc5f00$@rainier66.com> References: <00d101da5ac0$4bbb2eb0$e3318c10$@rainier66.com> <00f401da7e5f$8bec4100$a3c4c300$@rainier66.com> <7d683b14-38e6-d055-b6d4-f72a05396b6d@swisscows.email> <002001da7ee7$ada97500$08fc5f00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 25, 2024 at 12:07?PM wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat > > >... lowercase libertarians. > It could be built into the culture, but the people who are attracted to the ideas are just not very cooperative. Keith > > Ja. Somewhere in EP should be a chapter on the small class of people who actively eschew power, who do not want to control other people's lives. EP does not account for everything. Most of the selection for psychological traits such as for capture-bonding or war happened a long time ago, long before the rise of nation-states. The psychological traits that lead to wealth are more recent. > Such people should exist, even as anomalies. EP is about differential reproduction in favor of those whose behaviors are all the things EP predicts, but we have a few complete asexuals. I know one personally, a cousin. Obviously she has no children, but has a lifelong opposite gender partner who is also asexual. OK then. > > Asexuality is an anomaly. So... those who eschew power and wealth should not surprise us. Asexuality is not going to become a common psychological trait. Power and wealth are different. Power gives males more mating opportunities, wealth means a person's children are less likely to starve. > I eschew power, but I am way totally cool with wealth. If one argues that wealth is a form of power, I would counterargue that on the contrary, everyone has a choice if they want to trade with me. I do not command anyone. I buy their services. We both win. > > Keith we live in California, which is a free state: we can vote however we feel and never worry for a minute it can have any influence on the outcome. So... I vote my conscience. I am a green libertarian, who generally votes with the Libertarian party. This is so far from the environment of evolutionary adaptiveness that I don't think EP will help to understand it at all. Keith > spike > From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 25 20:05:35 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2024 13:05:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarians nominate none of these In-Reply-To: References: <00d101da5ac0$4bbb2eb0$e3318c10$@rainier66.com> <00f401da7e5f$8bec4100$a3c4c300$@rainier66.com> <7d683b14-38e6-d055-b6d4-f72a05396b6d@swisscows.email> <002001da7ee7$ada97500$08fc5f00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001e01da7eef$cd3d96a0$67b8c3e0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: Keith Henson Subject: Re: [ExI] libertarians nominate none of these On Mon, Mar 25, 2024 at 12:07?PM wrote: > >... >>... we live in California, which is a free state: we can vote however we feel and never worry for a minute it can have any influence on the outcome. So... I vote my conscience. I am a green libertarian, who generally votes with the Libertarian party. >...This is so far from the environment of evolutionary adaptiveness that I don't think EP will help to understand it at all. Keith Ja to all. Keith, as one who has been the victim of a weaponized legal system, you are the authority among us on that topic. We live in times where weaponization of the legal system is the biggest existential threat I can see, ahead of nuclear war and weaponized viruses. I see any effort to weaponize the legal system into a political tool as a crime worthy of the most severe political punishment available: brutally not voting for the bastards. Side note: all the newly-created legal weapons being used against one of the mainstream presidential candidates (whose name I cannot recall) may fall under his control soon. You know he will not hesitate to use them at every opportunity, for he will return to office with bitter revenge on his mind. Perhaps the best way to destroy those legal weapons is to have the powers that created them scrambling to find ways to disassemble the legal weapons they created and used. spike From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 25 20:48:45 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2024 13:48:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] to hold or not to hold Message-ID: <006e01da7ef5$d4a48510$7ded8f30$@rainier66.com> I am reading Michael Lewis' Going Infinite, in which he mentions that in the kind of trading that makes real money, milliseconds count. The Japanese propose spending a buttload of money to put a fiber optic cable between Tokyo and London to reduce latency between those points by a few milliseconds. The Attorney General of New York has demonstrated that New York law empowers her to seize property if she wants it. She wants it. So. the world's financial markets noticed and are looking for a safe alternative. Does anyone here know if moving to Florida is a viable option for Wall Street stock and securities trading? If there is a few milliseconds longer latency between London, Tokyo and West Palm Beach, the Florida move might not even be an option. I need to know this for it influences my decision on whether or not to hold Florida real estate. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Mon Mar 25 21:36:21 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2024 21:36:21 +0000 Subject: [ExI] to hold or not to hold In-Reply-To: <006e01da7ef5$d4a48510$7ded8f30$@rainier66.com> References: <006e01da7ef5$d4a48510$7ded8f30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Mar 2024 at 20:51, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > I am reading Michael Lewis? Going Infinite, in which he mentions that in the kind of trading that makes real money, milliseconds count. The Japanese propose spending a buttload of money to put a fiber optic cable between Tokyo and London to reduce latency between those points by a few milliseconds. > > The Attorney General of New York has demonstrated that New York law empowers her to seize property if she wants it. She wants it. So? the world?s financial markets noticed and are looking for a safe alternative. > > Does anyone here know if moving to Florida is a viable option for Wall Street stock and securities trading? If there is a few milliseconds longer latency between London, Tokyo and West Palm Beach, the Florida move might not even be an option. I need to know this for it influences my decision on whether or not to hold Florida real estate. > > spike > _______________________________________________ I think that the speed of connection mostly applies to high-frequency traders, who want their computers to be as close to the stockmarket computers as possible. Preferably in the same building. For HFT, micro seconds matter, milliseconds is too slow. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 25 23:23:08 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2024 16:23:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] to hold or not to hold In-Reply-To: References: <006e01da7ef5$d4a48510$7ded8f30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006301da7f0b$66137550$323a5ff0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat ... > >>... Does anyone here know if moving to Florida is a viable option for Wall Street stock and securities trading? ... > spike > _______________________________________________ >...I think that the speed of connection mostly applies to high-frequency traders, who want their computers to be as close to the stockmarket computers as possible. Preferably in the same building. For HFT, micro seconds matter, milliseconds is too slow. BillK _______________________________________________ Ja. So is New York inherently better than West Palm Beach Florida because of geography? And really where I am going with this: Is Florida a viable alternative to New York for the financial hub of the USA? If I can convince myself that it is, I am compelled to hold the Florida property for now. Power corrupts. The New York Attorney General was handed the power to seize property for overestimating its value, even after the entire loan was paid off and the bank showed up assuring the court that it lost no money. The "crime" had no victims. But New York could seize every building forming the skyline by that reasoning, cram it with homeless people. spike From pharos at gmail.com Mon Mar 25 23:40:44 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2024 23:40:44 +0000 Subject: [ExI] to hold or not to hold In-Reply-To: <006301da7f0b$66137550$323a5ff0$@rainier66.com> References: <006e01da7ef5$d4a48510$7ded8f30$@rainier66.com> <006301da7f0b$66137550$323a5ff0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Mar 2024 at 23:23, wrote: > Ja. So is New York inherently better than West Palm Beach Florida because of geography? And really where I am going with this: Is Florida a viable alternative to New York for the financial hub of the USA? If I can convince myself that it is, I am compelled to hold the Florida property for now. > > Power corrupts. The New York Attorney General was handed the power to seize property for overestimating its value, even after the entire loan was paid off and the bank showed up assuring the court that it lost no money. The "crime" had no victims. But New York could seize every building forming the skyline by that reasoning, cram it with homeless people. > > spike >------------------------------ I think you may be looking at this the wrong way. It has little to do with Wall Street and stock trading. I can't see Wall Street stock market moving out of New York. What is happening is that businesses are moving offices and HQs out of New York and Illinois, down to Florida and Texas for tax reasons and a more attractive political environment. That should be good for Florida real estate values, which is your concern. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 25 23:56:53 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2024 16:56:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] to hold or not to hold In-Reply-To: References: <006e01da7ef5$d4a48510$7ded8f30$@rainier66.com> <006301da7f0b$66137550$323a5ff0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006d01da7f10$1cd052f0$5670f8d0$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat >------------------------------ >...I think you may be looking at this the wrong way. It has little to do with Wall Street and stock trading. I can't see Wall Street stock market moving out of New York... I can. But your next comment is what caught my attention. >...What is happening is that businesses are moving offices and HQs out of New York and Illinois, down to Florida and Texas for tax reasons and a more attractive political environment. That should be good for Florida real estate values, which is your concern. BillK Thx Billk. I struggle to compensate for confirmation bias and fail: I conclude you are right on with this comment. It was what I was already thinking, and I have a high opinion of you, so naturally I want to agree, even if I actually literally do agree wholeheartedly. I assume myself biased because I grew up in that house, then try to compensate for confirmation bias, and still agree with change left over. The property in question is within driving distance of Elon Musk's operation, the town where I tragically squandered my cheerfully misspent childhood and youth. It was located waaaaay the hell out in the county when I lived there, but other homes were built around it. Now it is in a nice quiet safe neighborhood, still outside of the city limits but with city water and sewer. It has plenty of amenities, its own alligator living in the lake in the back yard, nice neighbors, etc. OK BillK, ya talked me into it. It's a hold for now. spike From spike at rainier66.com Tue Mar 26 00:09:33 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2024 17:09:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] to hold or not to hold In-Reply-To: <006d01da7f10$1cd052f0$5670f8d0$@rainier66.com> References: <006e01da7ef5$d4a48510$7ded8f30$@rainier66.com> <006301da7f0b$66137550$323a5ff0$@rainier66.com> <006d01da7f10$1cd052f0$5670f8d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <000901da7f11$e2071ee0$a6155ca0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: spike at rainier66.com Subject: RE: [ExI] to hold or not to hold ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat >------------------------------ >>...I think you may be looking at this the wrong way. It has little to do with Wall Street and stock trading. I can't see Wall Street stock market moving out of New York... >...I can. But your next comment is what caught my attention. BillK, the USA has demonstrated that it cannot or will not close its southern border. Immigrants want to go to New York City. So... Texas cheerfully obliges with a one-way ticket. New York cannot stop this. The newcomers make their way to Wall Street. Wall Street cannot stop this either. Pretty soon it becomes too dangerous to do business down there, as San Francisco is demonstrating with its own homeless problem. But Texas and Florida don't have that problem much. Wall Street traders begin asking if there is any reason why that operation cannot be moved to a law and order state, such as Texas or Florida. That's what I am looking for: any reason why not. I don't see it. Anyone? Anyone? Buuuuelllllerrrrrr... spike From atymes at gmail.com Tue Mar 26 00:29:34 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2024 17:29:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] to hold or not to hold In-Reply-To: <006e01da7ef5$d4a48510$7ded8f30$@rainier66.com> References: <006e01da7ef5$d4a48510$7ded8f30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 25, 2024, 1:50?PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The Attorney General of New York has demonstrated that New York law > empowers her to seize property if she wants it. She wants it. So? the > world?s financial markets noticed and are looking for a safe alternative. > Given a valid court judgment, she could seize property in Florida. As with contracts, those things are (in most cases) valid nationwide if there is a nationwide context. Also, this is not a new thing. The situation you describe (aside from the AG's gender) was the case when New York rose to power as a financial center. New York AGs have been seizing property for literally centuries. So, this clearly does not scare off most people with serious money. > Does anyone here know if moving to Florida is a viable option for Wall > Street stock and securities trading? If there is a few milliseconds longer > latency between London, Tokyo and West Palm Beach, the Florida move might > not even be an option. I need to know this for it influences my decision > on whether or not to hold Florida real estate. > You will not be engaging in the kind of trading where this matters. If you were, you would be thinking in microseconds, not milliseconds, and you would be concerned about where your data center is, not where you are. Given your wording, it seems highly unlikely that you plan to build a completely automated data center in Florida, but instead that you are thinking this real estate is where people would be, potentially including traders who act at merely human speeds and do not notice lag of a few microseconds. So, this factor is irrelevant to your decision. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Mar 26 00:36:31 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2024 17:36:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] to hold or not to hold In-Reply-To: <006301da7f0b$66137550$323a5ff0$@rainier66.com> References: <006e01da7ef5$d4a48510$7ded8f30$@rainier66.com> <006301da7f0b$66137550$323a5ff0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 25, 2024, 4:24?PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Is Florida a viable alternative to New York for the financial hub of the > USA? > No. But consider other uses for the property. If it is of little value right now but is near an area growing in population, and it is several acres (1 acres or a fraction does not attract the same interest), there are companies that will sign 25 year leases at $1,000/acre-year and up to put solar farms on similar properties. At the end of the 25 years, the degraded solar panels are removed and you get your land back, at much higher value if the nearby area has urbanized during that time. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Mar 26 01:10:44 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2024 18:10:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] to hold or not to hold In-Reply-To: <000901da7f11$e2071ee0$a6155ca0$@rainier66.com> References: <006e01da7ef5$d4a48510$7ded8f30$@rainier66.com> <006301da7f0b$66137550$323a5ff0$@rainier66.com> <006d01da7f10$1cd052f0$5670f8d0$@rainier66.com> <000901da7f11$e2071ee0$a6155ca0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 25, 2024, 5:10?PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > BillK, the USA has demonstrated that it cannot or will not close its > southern border. Immigrants want to go to New York City. Immigrants want to go to the USA. They often do not care that much where. So... Texas > cheerfully obliges with a one-way ticket. New York cannot stop this. > It can, and already is in the process of doing so, using the police and the courts. Now, there may be a case for fast tracking immigrant applications if they are willing to move to states that are bleeding people to the point that one might question if they should still be states. Wyoming, for example. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Mar 26 01:13:40 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2024 18:13:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] to hold or not to hold In-Reply-To: References: <006e01da7ef5$d4a48510$7ded8f30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002e01da7f1a$d73b0ea0$85b12be0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat ? Does anyone here know if moving to Florida is a viable option for Wall Street stock and securities trading? ? >?You will not be engaging in the kind of trading where this matters. If you were, you would be thinking in microseconds, not milliseconds, and you would be concerned about where your data center is, not where you are. Given your wording, it seems highly unlikely that you plan to build a completely automated data center in Florida, but instead that you are thinking this real estate is where people would be, potentially including traders who act at merely human speeds and do not notice lag of a few microseconds. So, this factor is irrelevant to your decision. Adrian Ja, Adran I keep thinking that the West Palm Beach area is importing skerjillionaires, which means they will build nice stuff down there, which means money will start filling up this way, toward the space coast, which means that property is probably a good bet to hold. I was down there recently and couldn?t help but notice that town is in a looooot nicer condition now than it was when I was there 9 years ago. While I was there, Musk blasted two of his creations into the sky, both at night, which was kewallll. I can imagine starry-eyed young rocket scientists from India wanting to get involved in that, and leasing that property. Then if California gets too commie for me to tolerate, off we go to the delightful weirdness of the Sunshine State. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Mar 26 01:21:41 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2024 18:21:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] to hold or not to hold In-Reply-To: References: <006e01da7ef5$d4a48510$7ded8f30$@rainier66.com> <006301da7f0b$66137550$323a5ff0$@rainier66.com> <006d01da7f10$1cd052f0$5670f8d0$@rainier66.com> <000901da7f11$e2071ee0$a6155ca0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003d01da7f1b$f5a2c260$e0e84720$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] to hold or not to hold On Mon, Mar 25, 2024, 5:10?PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: BillK, the USA has demonstrated that it cannot or will not close its southern border. Immigrants want to go to New York City. >?Immigrants want to go to the USA. They often do not care that much where? There is a good video where a news guy went down the row in some Texas border town asking them where they wanted to go. Most of them answered either Chicago or New York. They definitely don?t want to stay in Texas. So... Texas cheerfully obliges with a one-way ticket. New York cannot stop this? >?It can, and already is in the process of doing so, using the police and the courts? But if illegals have a bus ticket, New York cannot stop them. Texas can give them a Greyhound bus ticket. If New York stops the charter buses, then the buses stop in New Jersey, within walking distance of New York. National borders are enforceable. State lines are not. >?Now, there may be a case for fast tracking immigrant applications if they are willing to move to states that are bleeding people to the point that one might question if they should still be states. Wyoming, for example? But none of them want to be in Wyoming. I can?t blame them. I was there recently. Beautiful state actually, but the climate is very harsh and there is very few jobs. Regarding whether Wyoming should still be a state, do let me assure you, with that few people holding 4% of the senate, they value their statehood highly. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Mar 26 02:02:58 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2024 19:02:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarians nominate none of these In-Reply-To: <002101da7ee8$2475bfe0$6d613fa0$@rainier66.com> References: <00d101da5ac0$4bbb2eb0$e3318c10$@rainier66.com> <00f401da7e5f$8bec4100$a3c4c300$@rainier66.com> <7d683b14-38e6-d055-b6d4-f72a05396b6d@swisscows.email> <002101da7ee8$2475bfe0$6d613fa0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 25, 2024 at 12:10?PM wrote: > For Libertarians and Greens, a win is defined as spanning the gap. > A win is a win, same as for any other party or independent. And there are a (very) few non-D-or-R types in Congress. I've said it before and I'll say it again: any third party that wants to take advantage of the current lapse, would best be served by not running a Presidential candidate at all. That's an expensive waste of money and energy. Instead, focus on state offices, particularly governors, and maybe Congress. Hold off on a Presidential candidate until they have a major elected official (governor of Congressperson), plus ballot access for a Presidential candidate, in enough districts (governor counts for all districts in the state) to have a mathematical chance of getting enough electoral votes. > Your suggestion ?there would be trouble if they did not? is a subtle > understatement worthy of Jeeves the gentleman?s gentleman. > I note that there are cases where they do - in practice, not just because the other party is that unpopular - exclude the other party from the ballot. They're rare, but I worry about them growing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Mar 26 02:57:27 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2024 19:57:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarians nominate none of these In-Reply-To: References: <00d101da5ac0$4bbb2eb0$e3318c10$@rainier66.com> <00f401da7e5f$8bec4100$a3c4c300$@rainier66.com> <7d683b14-38e6-d055-b6d4-f72a05396b6d@swisscows.email> <002101da7ee8$2475bfe0$6d613fa0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005e01da7f29$569987e0$03cc97a0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Cc: Adrian Tymes Subject: Re: [ExI] libertarians nominate none of these On Mon, Mar 25, 2024 at 12:10?PM > wrote: For Libertarians and Greens, a win is defined as spanning the gap. >?A win is a win, same as for any other party or independent. And there are a (very) few non-D-or-R types in Congress? If ever there was a year to try for a win, it is this one. Both mainstream candidates are well known, both are wildly unpopular, both are too old, both have serious legal troubles, neither were effective unifiers, nobody likes these two, certainly nobody I have talked to. So if we could find a credible candidate, the Libertarian guy could win, maybe. Oh that would be a new day. >?I note that there are cases where they do - in practice, not just because the other party is that unpopular - exclude the other party from the ballot. They're rare, but I worry about them growing? Adrian The recent Supreme Court decision outlaws states and counties from excluding candidates for a national-level office. The decision was a rare unanimous agreement of all nine justices. It is easy to see chaos if the decision had gone any other way. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Mar 26 04:00:19 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2024 21:00:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] to hold or not to hold In-Reply-To: <002e01da7f1a$d73b0ea0$85b12be0$@rainier66.com> References: <006e01da7ef5$d4a48510$7ded8f30$@rainier66.com> <002e01da7f1a$d73b0ea0$85b12be0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006501da7f32$1f12f780$5d38e680$@rainier66.com> Researching this evening, I found a link to this TwitterX post: The decision is made: hold for now. Reason: money is coming now, more is coming in the easily foreseeable, to Florida. Meanwhile, my own state of California is now running a 73 billion dollar deficit for 2024, and that can?t be printed away. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17668 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Tue Mar 26 04:27:47 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2024 21:27:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: after upload, what? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Keith Henson Date: Mon, Mar 25, 2024 at 5:29?PM Subject: Re: [ExI] after upload, what? To: Brent Allsop On Sun, Mar 24, 2024 at 3:04?PM Brent Allsop wrote: > > > Hi Keith, > OK, got it. > I think you've indicated in the past you agree the subjective experience contains qualities like redness and greenness. Functionalists predict that qualities are "substrate independent" and can arise from anything "functioning" correctly. Whereas materialists think there is something physically real which has those qualities, or in other words subjective experience, or the qualities of which it is composed is dependent on whatever substrate it is, that has a redness quality, for example. If it was glutamate, reacting in a synapse that has a redness quality, then without said glutamate, no ability to experience redness. > > I guess I'm asking for more details about how something like this might be achieved: > "Her consciousness was continuous as the reactivated brain cells took over from the slowed > down swarm of nano computers that had been simulating them." > > You seem to be saying that there would be a kind of switching between the two. Yes. > The neurons would be replaced by computers simulating them, and visa versa for the other direction. But I think of the all important "computational binding". I have no clue what you mean by "computational binding". > > Half of our visual knowledge could be represented by something in our right hemisphere, the other in the left hemisphere. Somehow these two hemispheres of knowledge are computationally bound into one unified experience of everything we see before us. But why could you take a simulated set of knowledge of what is behind us, and bind that into the same two hemispheres, so one could have a 360 degree set of visual knowledge of not just what is in front of us, but in a way so we would be seeing what is behind us, all as one unified 360 degrees of visual experience. I suppose this could be done in a simulation, but not in an unmodified physical state human. > In other words, since you could experience the real neurons, together with the simulated ones, all at the same time through computational binding, not only could you say if the simulated stuff was "Better? Worse?" you would know how it was qualitatively different. (i.e. in addition to your knowledge of what is behind you possibly being composed of qualities you had never experienced before, redness and greenness could be inverted, from what you see in front of you, and so on.) I suppose you could do this if you wanted, but I have no interest. Life is complicated enough. Keith > > > > > > > On Sun, Mar 24, 2024 at 11:18?AM Keith Henson wrote: >> >> On Sun, Mar 24, 2024 at 5:34?AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat >> wrote: >> >> snip >> >> > Keith, I think we will eventually get to what you are describing, but I also think you are missing a few things which will be possible on the way there. >> > >> > Would you consider yourself a functionalist, like most people here, in that things like subjective color quality experience can arise from any simulation "functioning" the same? >> >> I am not sure what you mean. >> >> > And what do you imagine "going both ways" would be like? How could this be done? >> > >> I wrote about what happened to Zaba in considerable high level detail. >> I posted the whole story last week. And in the post you are replying >> to I quoted the paragraphs describing how Zabe went into and came out >> of the uploaded state. >> >> Go back and reread the post you are replying to. If you did, I have >> no idea why you are asking these questions. >> >> Keith >> > _______________________________________________ >> > extropy-chat mailing list >> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Tue Mar 26 04:32:45 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2024 21:32:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: after upload, what? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Keith Henson Date: Mon, Mar 25, 2024 at 5:29?PM Subject: Re: [ExI] after upload, what? To: Brent Allsop On Sun, Mar 24, 2024 at 3:04?PM Brent Allsop wrote: > > > Hi Keith, > OK, got it. > I think you've indicated in the past you agree the subjective experience contains qualities like redness and greenness. Functionalists predict that qualities are "substrate independent" and can arise from anything "functioning" correctly. Whereas materialists think there is something physically real which has those qualities, or in other words subjective experience, or the qualities of which it is composed is dependent on whatever substrate it is, that has a redness quality, for example. If it was glutamate, reacting in a synapse that has a redness quality, then without said glutamate, no ability to experience redness. > > I guess I'm asking for more details about how something like this might be achieved: > "Her consciousness was continuous as the reactivated brain cells took over from the slowed > down swarm of nano computers that had been simulating them." > > You seem to be saying that there would be a kind of switching between the two. Yes. > The neurons would be replaced by computers simulating them, and visa versa for the other direction. But I think of the all important "computational binding". I have no clue what you mean by "computational binding". > > Half of our visual knowledge could be represented by something in our right hemisphere, the other in the left hemisphere. Somehow these two hemispheres of knowledge are computationally bound into one unified experience of everything we see before us. But why could you take a simulated set of knowledge of what is behind us, and bind that into the same two hemispheres, so one could have a 360 degree set of visual knowledge of not just what is in front of us, but in a way so we would be seeing what is behind us, all as one unified 360 degrees of visual experience. I suppose this could be done in a simulation, but not in an unmodified physical state human. > In other words, since you could experience the real neurons, together with the simulated ones, all at the same time through computational binding, not only could you say if the simulated stuff was "Better? Worse?" you would know how it was qualitatively different. (i.e. in addition to your knowledge of what is behind you possibly being composed of qualities you had never experienced before, redness and greenness could be inverted, from what you see in front of you, and so on.) I suppose you could do this if you wanted, but I have no interest. Life is complicated enough. Keith > > > > > > > On Sun, Mar 24, 2024 at 11:18?AM Keith Henson wrote: >> >> On Sun, Mar 24, 2024 at 5:34?AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat >> wrote: >> >> snip >> >> > Keith, I think we will eventually get to what you are describing, but I also think you are missing a few things which will be possible on the way there. >> > >> > Would you consider yourself a functionalist, like most people here, in that things like subjective color quality experience can arise from any simulation "functioning" the same? >> >> I am not sure what you mean. >> >> > And what do you imagine "going both ways" would be like? How could this be done? >> > >> I wrote about what happened to Zaba in considerable high level detail. >> I posted the whole story last week. And in the post you are replying >> to I quoted the paragraphs describing how Zabe went into and came out >> of the uploaded state. >> >> Go back and reread the post you are replying to. If you did, I have >> no idea why you are asking these questions. >> >> Keith >> > _______________________________________________ >> > extropy-chat mailing list >> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From atymes at gmail.com Tue Mar 26 07:46:36 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2024 00:46:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarians nominate none of these In-Reply-To: <005e01da7f29$569987e0$03cc97a0$@rainier66.com> References: <00d101da5ac0$4bbb2eb0$e3318c10$@rainier66.com> <00f401da7e5f$8bec4100$a3c4c300$@rainier66.com> <7d683b14-38e6-d055-b6d4-f72a05396b6d@swisscows.email> <002101da7ee8$2475bfe0$6d613fa0$@rainier66.com> <005e01da7f29$569987e0$03cc97a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 25, 2024, 7:57?PM wrote: > On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat >> On Mon, Mar 25, 2024 at 12:10?PM wrote: >>> For Libertarians and Greens, a win is defined as spanning the gap. >> >>?A win is a win, same as for any other party or independent. And there are a (very) few non-D-or-R types in Congress? > > If ever there was a year to try for a win, it is this one. Not for the Presidential race. No third party has significant influence in enough elector districts yet. That absolutely overrides all other factors. For Congress and state races, perhaps. But where is the push from any third party on that front? >>?I note that there are cases where they do - in practice, not just because the other party is that unpopular - exclude the other party from the ballot. They're rare, but I worry about them growing? Adrian > > The recent Supreme Court decision outlaws states and counties from excluding candidates for a national-level office. Again, not what I'm talking about. I mean cases for Congress and state level offices where there would be enough popular support for a candidate from the other major party than is currently serving to unseat the incumbent, but said other major party is denied access to the ballot. (This excludes cases like California's jungle primaries, where Republicans can run but in many cases they can't get enough votes to get on the November ballot.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Mar 26 09:53:38 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2024 02:53:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] after upload, what? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 5:57?PM Travis Porco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Forgive me for delurking, No forgiveness needed. Welcome to the chat! > but perhaps the time has come to ask *how* > to do an upload or upload-like activity right now, today, with > existing technology...extracting enough memory and identity to > generate an authorized continuing agent for yourself, without being > distracted by worries about whether it is "really you" and so forth. > As I follow these discussions I find the philosophical worries merely > lead to inaction, and in some cases, contain elements dismissive of > the value of lives. > Well...there is one option with today's technology, but it'd be heck of impractically expensive for a human brain, though I hear something like this might be being done with insect brains. Map out and simulate each neuron, one by one. Make a good enough (which likely requires near-perfect in practice) software simulation of the neuron, including its synapses (its inputs and outputs). Connect these neuron simulations together, in the exact same fashion as the actual neurons are connected. Run the whole thing on a powerful enough computer - which involves massive parallelism, even for insect simulations, thus the expense. There also needs to be blank/spare/extra hardware to simulate growth of new neurons over time (not as many as already exist in the running brain, but a nonzero amount, with a potentially indefinite cap if the simulated brain lives forever; more hardware can be added over time to support this, but this might put a cap on the practical maximum speed-up if the uploaded brain is to run significantly faster than the original). This misses input from the rest of the body, but it's a start (and can help narrow down exactly what the rest of the body's inputs are). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Tue Mar 26 17:06:56 2024 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2024 11:06:56 -0600 Subject: [ExI] after upload, what? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My belief is that visual 3D visual knowledge of what we see is a critical part of what consciousness is. There is a spirit world in our heads composed of color qualities. When there is a lesion in the primary visual cortex the part of this spirit world represented in that region is gone, a gaping blind spot. "Bionic eyes" using things like the Utah Array and work being done by neura link can stimulate areas in the visual cortex, and get people to experience visual knowledge or pixels or white sometimes referred to as 'sprites'. But they can't yet get color. And until they know what is responsible for subjective color qualities, and can reproduce all the colors at will, subjectively, and fix these regions in the primary visual cortex, no simulation of it will work. My prediction is, once they discover which of all our descriptions of stuff in the brain is a description of redness, and stuff like that. And once they can get colored 'sprites' to be experienced in the subjective visual space, this will revolutionize AI, to say nothing about repairing the visual cortex and its qualities. I predict this kind of computation directly on intrinsic qualities like redness and greenness will change humanity forever. I predict that people will look back on completely quality blind thinking like this as ideotic. Everyone will be wondering how so many smart people could have been so quality blind for so long. TWIYH_1080P.mp4 On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 3:54?AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 5:57?PM Travis Porco via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Forgive me for delurking, > > > No forgiveness needed. Welcome to the chat! > > >> but perhaps the time has come to ask *how* >> to do an upload or upload-like activity right now, today, with >> existing technology...extracting enough memory and identity to >> generate an authorized continuing agent for yourself, without being >> distracted by worries about whether it is "really you" and so forth. >> As I follow these discussions I find the philosophical worries merely >> lead to inaction, and in some cases, contain elements dismissive of >> the value of lives. >> > > Well...there is one option with today's technology, but it'd be heck of > impractically expensive for a human brain, though I hear something like > this might be being done with insect brains. > > Map out and simulate each neuron, one by one. Make a good enough (which > likely requires near-perfect in practice) software simulation of the > neuron, including its synapses (its inputs and outputs). Connect these > neuron simulations together, in the exact same fashion as the actual > neurons are connected. Run the whole thing on a powerful enough computer - > which involves massive parallelism, even for insect simulations, thus the > expense. There also needs to be blank/spare/extra hardware to simulate > growth of new neurons over time (not as many as already exist in the > running brain, but a nonzero amount, with a potentially indefinite cap if > the simulated brain lives forever; more hardware can be added over time to > support this, but this might put a cap on the practical maximum speed-up if > the uploaded brain is to run significantly faster than the original). > > This misses input from the rest of the body, but it's a start (and can > help narrow down exactly what the rest of the body's inputs are). > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Tue Mar 26 17:38:12 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2024 10:38:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] after upload, what? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 10:09?AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > My belief is that visual 3D visual knowledge of what we see is a critical > part of what consciousness is. > There is a spirit world in our heads composed of color qualities. > The "spirit world" in _The Clinic Ssed_ was a euphemism for the simulated world uploaded minds found themselves in. Keith When there is a lesion in the primary visual cortex the part of this spirit > world represented in that region is gone, a gaping blind spot. > "Bionic eyes" using things like the Utah Array and work being done by > neura link can stimulate areas in the visual cortex, and get people to > experience visual knowledge or pixels or white sometimes referred to as > 'sprites'. But they can't yet get color. And until they know what is > responsible for subjective color qualities, and can reproduce all the > colors at will, subjectively, and fix these regions in the primary visual > cortex, no simulation of it will work. > > My prediction is, once they discover which of all our descriptions of > stuff in the brain is a description of redness, and stuff like that. And > once they can get colored 'sprites' to be experienced in the subjective > visual space, this will revolutionize AI, to say nothing about repairing > the visual cortex and its qualities. I predict this kind of computation > directly on intrinsic qualities like redness and greenness will change > humanity forever. I predict that people will look back on completely > quality blind thinking like this as ideotic. Everyone will be wondering > how so many smart people could have been so quality blind for so long. > > > TWIYH_1080P.mp4 > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 3:54?AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 5:57?PM Travis Porco via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Forgive me for delurking, >> >> >> No forgiveness needed. Welcome to the chat! >> >> >>> but perhaps the time has come to ask *how* >>> to do an upload or upload-like activity right now, today, with >>> existing technology...extracting enough memory and identity to >>> generate an authorized continuing agent for yourself, without being >>> distracted by worries about whether it is "really you" and so forth. >>> As I follow these discussions I find the philosophical worries merely >>> lead to inaction, and in some cases, contain elements dismissive of >>> the value of lives. >>> >> >> Well...there is one option with today's technology, but it'd be heck of >> impractically expensive for a human brain, though I hear something like >> this might be being done with insect brains. >> >> Map out and simulate each neuron, one by one. Make a good enough (which >> likely requires near-perfect in practice) software simulation of the >> neuron, including its synapses (its inputs and outputs). Connect these >> neuron simulations together, in the exact same fashion as the actual >> neurons are connected. Run the whole thing on a powerful enough computer - >> which involves massive parallelism, even for insect simulations, thus the >> expense. There also needs to be blank/spare/extra hardware to simulate >> growth of new neurons over time (not as many as already exist in the >> running brain, but a nonzero amount, with a potentially indefinite cap if >> the simulated brain lives forever; more hardware can be added over time to >> support this, but this might put a cap on the practical maximum speed-up if >> the uploaded brain is to run significantly faster than the original). >> >> This misses input from the rest of the body, but it's a start (and can >> help narrow down exactly what the rest of the body's inputs are). >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Tue Mar 26 18:24:03 2024 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2024 12:24:03 -0600 Subject: [ExI] after upload, what? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, and I've struggled with calling it a "spirit world" also. But I think calling it this is the right thing to do. And we should point out to everyone that redness and greenness are spiritual qualities, not properties of the strawberry. And, if it wasn't for the majority of dualistic functionalists who claim redness and greenness aren't physical, it'd sure help. My primary target is religious irrational nut cases that believe there is some "spirit world" independent of the brain. (i.e. most Mormons) I'm presenting a talk at the upcoming Mormon Transhumanist conference and I'm going all in with this "spirit world" terminology. Joseph Smith said many times (and it is in Mormon Scripture) "All spirit is matter which can only be discerned by purer eyes." If we can get the irrational idiots who believe in whoga booka BS, to use words like "spirit world" for something real and objectively observable, maybe this will convert them to be more rational, and hopeful for what uploading will really be like? And hopefully it will increase their likeliness to be more motivated to do things like be cryonically preserved.... Oh, my talk's title: "All spirit is matter" What will spiritual engineering and uploading be like? TWIYH_1080P.mp4 On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:38?AM Keith Henson wrote: > On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 10:09?AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> My belief is that visual 3D visual knowledge of what we see is a critical >> part of what consciousness is. >> There is a spirit world in our heads composed of color qualities. >> > > The "spirit world" in _The Clinic Ssed_ was a euphemism for the simulated > world uploaded minds found themselves in. > > Keith > > When there is a lesion in the primary visual cortex the part of this >> spirit world represented in that region is gone, a gaping blind spot. >> "Bionic eyes" using things like the Utah Array and work being done by >> neura link can stimulate areas in the visual cortex, and get people to >> experience visual knowledge or pixels or white sometimes referred to as >> 'sprites'. But they can't yet get color. And until they know what is >> responsible for subjective color qualities, and can reproduce all the >> colors at will, subjectively, and fix these regions in the primary visual >> cortex, no simulation of it will work. >> >> My prediction is, once they discover which of all our descriptions of >> stuff in the brain is a description of redness, and stuff like that. And >> once they can get colored 'sprites' to be experienced in the subjective >> visual space, this will revolutionize AI, to say nothing about repairing >> the visual cortex and its qualities. I predict this kind of computation >> directly on intrinsic qualities like redness and greenness will change >> humanity forever. I predict that people will look back on completely >> quality blind thinking like this as ideotic. Everyone will be wondering >> how so many smart people could have been so quality blind for so long. >> >> >> TWIYH_1080P.mp4 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 3:54?AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 5:57?PM Travis Porco via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Forgive me for delurking, >>> >>> >>> No forgiveness needed. Welcome to the chat! >>> >>> >>>> but perhaps the time has come to ask *how* >>>> to do an upload or upload-like activity right now, today, with >>>> existing technology...extracting enough memory and identity to >>>> generate an authorized continuing agent for yourself, without being >>>> distracted by worries about whether it is "really you" and so forth. >>>> As I follow these discussions I find the philosophical worries merely >>>> lead to inaction, and in some cases, contain elements dismissive of >>>> the value of lives. >>>> >>> >>> Well...there is one option with today's technology, but it'd be heck of >>> impractically expensive for a human brain, though I hear something like >>> this might be being done with insect brains. >>> >>> Map out and simulate each neuron, one by one. Make a good enough (which >>> likely requires near-perfect in practice) software simulation of the >>> neuron, including its synapses (its inputs and outputs). Connect these >>> neuron simulations together, in the exact same fashion as the actual >>> neurons are connected. Run the whole thing on a powerful enough computer - >>> which involves massive parallelism, even for insect simulations, thus the >>> expense. There also needs to be blank/spare/extra hardware to simulate >>> growth of new neurons over time (not as many as already exist in the >>> running brain, but a nonzero amount, with a potentially indefinite cap if >>> the simulated brain lives forever; more hardware can be added over time to >>> support this, but this might put a cap on the practical maximum speed-up if >>> the uploaded brain is to run significantly faster than the original). >>> >>> This misses input from the rest of the body, but it's a start (and can >>> help narrow down exactly what the rest of the body's inputs are). >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Mar 27 00:30:32 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2024 17:30:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] after upload, what? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:24?AM Brent Allsop wrote: > > Yes, and I've struggled with calling it a "spirit world" also. > In The Clinic Seed "spirit world" is initially the simulation Suskulan sets up to talk to the profoundly injured Zaba and to let her talk to her parents. [After warming up and transferring her consciousness back to her physical body.] "She was mildly distressed that she now had to voice talk to Suskulan, who appeared as a projection, instead of "talking" directly to his spirit in the spirit world she had inhabited. Then she realized from her new knowledge there was a way she could if she took a bit of the clinic with her. However, there wasn't much time before her parents came. "Can I come back to visit even if I am not hurt?" she asked. "Yes. Anytime I don't have another patient." "May I take the clinic's interface with me?" "There is nothing so addictive . . ." thought Suskulan. "You may." Part of the cloud of nanomachines that had just left Zaba's brain returned as a momentary haze. Since they retained their memory of where they had been it was a matter of a few minutes before the machines reestablished their monitoring posts in Zaba's brain. "I missed not being able to talk to you in the spirit world." Zaba said without voicing. A wire frame image in Zaba's visual cortex overlaid the physical projected image of Suskulan. "Spirit talk does not reach as far as your garden." Suskulan warned her. 'Spirit world talk' is obviously WIFI. > But I think calling it this is the right thing to do. And we should point > out to everyone that redness and greenness are spiritual qualities, not > properties of the strawberry. And, if it wasn't for the majority of > dualistic functionalists who claim redness and greenness aren't physical, > it'd sure help. > I can't imagine Zaba and the other children and eventually all the inhabitants of the tata (village) giving a hoot about redness or greeness. At the end of the story they live in a world with green trees, but why should they be concerned about such details? > My primary target is religious irrational nut cases that believe there is > some "spirit world" independent of the brain. (i.e. most Mormons) > I'm presenting a talk at the upcoming Mormon Transhumanist conference > and I'm going all in with this "spirit world" > terminology. Joseph Smith said many times (and it is in Mormon Scripture) > "All spirit is matter which can only be discerned by purer eyes." > In the story, "spirit world" is a simulation of the real world. People can more between the real world and the simulation whenever they wish. This is totally unlike the Mormon ideas. As far as I know, nobody has ever come back from their "spirit world." Keith If we can get the irrational idiots who believe in whoga booka BS, to use > words like "spirit world" for something real and objectively observable, > maybe this will convert them to be more rational, and hopeful for what > uploading will really be like? And hopefully it will increase their > likeliness to be more motivated to do things like be cryonically > preserved.... > > Oh, my talk's title: > > "All spirit is matter" > What will spiritual engineering and uploading be like? > > TWIYH_1080P.mp4 > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:38?AM Keith Henson > wrote: > >> On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 10:09?AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> My belief is that visual 3D visual knowledge of what we see is a >>> critical part of what consciousness is. >>> There is a spirit world in our heads composed of color qualities. >>> >> >> The "spirit world" in _The Clinic Ssed_ was a euphemism for the simulated >> world uploaded minds found themselves in. >> >> Keith >> >> When there is a lesion in the primary visual cortex the part of this >>> spirit world represented in that region is gone, a gaping blind spot. >>> "Bionic eyes" using things like the Utah Array and work being done by >>> neura link can stimulate areas in the visual cortex, and get people to >>> experience visual knowledge or pixels or white sometimes referred to as >>> 'sprites'. But they can't yet get color. And until they know what is >>> responsible for subjective color qualities, and can reproduce all the >>> colors at will, subjectively, and fix these regions in the primary visual >>> cortex, no simulation of it will work. >>> >>> My prediction is, once they discover which of all our descriptions of >>> stuff in the brain is a description of redness, and stuff like that. And >>> once they can get colored 'sprites' to be experienced in the subjective >>> visual space, this will revolutionize AI, to say nothing about repairing >>> the visual cortex and its qualities. I predict this kind of computation >>> directly on intrinsic qualities like redness and greenness will change >>> humanity forever. I predict that people will look back on completely >>> quality blind thinking like this as ideotic. Everyone will be wondering >>> how so many smart people could have been so quality blind for so long. >>> >>> >>> TWIYH_1080P.mp4 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 3:54?AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 5:57?PM Travis Porco via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Forgive me for delurking, >>>> >>>> >>>> No forgiveness needed. Welcome to the chat! >>>> >>>> >>>>> but perhaps the time has come to ask *how* >>>>> to do an upload or upload-like activity right now, today, with >>>>> existing technology...extracting enough memory and identity to >>>>> generate an authorized continuing agent for yourself, without being >>>>> distracted by worries about whether it is "really you" and so forth. >>>>> As I follow these discussions I find the philosophical worries merely >>>>> lead to inaction, and in some cases, contain elements dismissive of >>>>> the value of lives. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Well...there is one option with today's technology, but it'd be heck of >>>> impractically expensive for a human brain, though I hear something like >>>> this might be being done with insect brains. >>>> >>>> Map out and simulate each neuron, one by one. Make a good enough >>>> (which likely requires near-perfect in practice) software simulation of the >>>> neuron, including its synapses (its inputs and outputs). Connect these >>>> neuron simulations together, in the exact same fashion as the actual >>>> neurons are connected. Run the whole thing on a powerful enough computer - >>>> which involves massive parallelism, even for insect simulations, thus the >>>> expense. There also needs to be blank/spare/extra hardware to simulate >>>> growth of new neurons over time (not as many as already exist in the >>>> running brain, but a nonzero amount, with a potentially indefinite cap if >>>> the simulated brain lives forever; more hardware can be added over time to >>>> support this, but this might put a cap on the practical maximum speed-up if >>>> the uploaded brain is to run significantly faster than the original). >>>> >>>> This misses input from the rest of the body, but it's a start (and can >>>> help narrow down exactly what the rest of the body's inputs are). >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Wed Mar 27 00:55:11 2024 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2024 18:55:11 -0600 Subject: [ExI] after upload, what? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Keith, Oh, yes, now I recall that in your great story. The problem I have with it, is you are failing to distinguish between reality and knowledge of reality. Sure, you could have a 100% abstract simulated world feeding data into the brain through simulated senses. But there also needs to be a buble world, inside the head, that is the brain's knowledge of that simulated world. Any subjective knowledge composed of colored qualities must be something more than an abstract word like 'red'. On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 6:31?PM Keith Henson wrote: > On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:24?AM Brent Allsop > wrote: > >> My primary target is religious irrational nut cases that believe there is >> some "spirit world" independent of the brain. (i.e. most Mormons) >> > I'm presenting a talk at the upcoming Mormon Transhumanist conference >> and I'm going all in with this "spirit world" >> terminology. Joseph Smith said many times (and it is in Mormon Scripture) >> "All spirit is matter which can only be discerned by purer eyes." >> > > In the story, "spirit world" is a simulation of the real world. People > can more between the real world and the simulation whenever they wish. > > This is totally unlike the Mormon ideas. As far as I know, nobody has > ever come back from their "spirit world." > Yes, the "spirit world" most mormons believe in today, and the ghosts which most mormons irrationally believe leave the body upon death to head to this neither world of the dead is what I'm trying to attack and destroy, by showing how irrational, faithless and evil it is. I'm trying to point out that there is a much more modern, scientifically consistent, rational and hopeful way to interpret statements like "All Spirit is Matter'.' I'm trying to point out that we can believe in engineerable knowledge of (again important to distinguish between reality and knowledge of reality) *spirits*, which live within bubble spirit worlds, all dependent on living and computing brains computing directly on spiritual qualities like redness and greenness. But we don't need to believe in *ghosts*. which are neither engineerable nor enhanceable, and most importantly, falsifiable (i.e. once we discover what spiritual qualities are, this will falsify for all the believers in substance dualism , and force them into a more physical scientific consensus camp.) > Keith > > If we can get the irrational idiots who believe in whoga booka BS, to use >> words like "spirit world" for something real and objectively observable, >> maybe this will convert them to be more rational, and hopeful for what >> uploading will really be like? And hopefully it will increase their >> likeliness to be more motivated to do things like be cryonically >> preserved.... >> >> Oh, my talk's title: >> >> "All spirit is matter" >> What will spiritual engineering and uploading be like? >> >> TWIYH_1080P.mp4 >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:38?AM Keith Henson >> wrote: >> >>> On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 10:09?AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> My belief is that visual 3D visual knowledge of what we see is a >>>> critical part of what consciousness is. >>>> There is a spirit world in our heads composed of color qualities. >>>> >>> >>> The "spirit world" in _The Clinic Ssed_ was a euphemism for the >>> simulated world uploaded minds found themselves in. >>> >>> Keith >>> >>> When there is a lesion in the primary visual cortex the part of this >>>> spirit world represented in that region is gone, a gaping blind spot. >>>> "Bionic eyes" using things like the Utah Array and work being done by >>>> neura link can stimulate areas in the visual cortex, and get people to >>>> experience visual knowledge or pixels or white sometimes referred to as >>>> 'sprites'. But they can't yet get color. And until they know what is >>>> responsible for subjective color qualities, and can reproduce all the >>>> colors at will, subjectively, and fix these regions in the primary visual >>>> cortex, no simulation of it will work. >>>> >>>> My prediction is, once they discover which of all our descriptions of >>>> stuff in the brain is a description of redness, and stuff like that. And >>>> once they can get colored 'sprites' to be experienced in the subjective >>>> visual space, this will revolutionize AI, to say nothing about repairing >>>> the visual cortex and its qualities. I predict this kind of computation >>>> directly on intrinsic qualities like redness and greenness will change >>>> humanity forever. I predict that people will look back on completely >>>> quality blind thinking like this as ideotic. Everyone will be wondering >>>> how so many smart people could have been so quality blind for so long. >>>> >>>> >>>> TWIYH_1080P.mp4 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 3:54?AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 5:57?PM Travis Porco via extropy-chat < >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Forgive me for delurking, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> No forgiveness needed. Welcome to the chat! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> but perhaps the time has come to ask *how* >>>>>> to do an upload or upload-like activity right now, today, with >>>>>> existing technology...extracting enough memory and identity to >>>>>> generate an authorized continuing agent for yourself, without being >>>>>> distracted by worries about whether it is "really you" and so forth. >>>>>> As I follow these discussions I find the philosophical worries merely >>>>>> lead to inaction, and in some cases, contain elements dismissive of >>>>>> the value of lives. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Well...there is one option with today's technology, but it'd be heck >>>>> of impractically expensive for a human brain, though I hear something like >>>>> this might be being done with insect brains. >>>>> >>>>> Map out and simulate each neuron, one by one. Make a good enough >>>>> (which likely requires near-perfect in practice) software simulation of the >>>>> neuron, including its synapses (its inputs and outputs). Connect these >>>>> neuron simulations together, in the exact same fashion as the actual >>>>> neurons are connected. Run the whole thing on a powerful enough computer - >>>>> which involves massive parallelism, even for insect simulations, thus the >>>>> expense. There also needs to be blank/spare/extra hardware to simulate >>>>> growth of new neurons over time (not as many as already exist in the >>>>> running brain, but a nonzero amount, with a potentially indefinite cap if >>>>> the simulated brain lives forever; more hardware can be added over time to >>>>> support this, but this might put a cap on the practical maximum speed-up if >>>>> the uploaded brain is to run significantly faster than the original). >>>>> >>>>> This misses input from the rest of the body, but it's a start (and can >>>>> help narrow down exactly what the rest of the body's inputs are). >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed Mar 27 01:57:07 2024 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2024 18:57:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarians nominate none of these In-Reply-To: <001e01da7ee6$ad46b100$07d41300$@rainier66.com> References: <001e01da7ee6$ad46b100$07d41300$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <47B4BC06-B774-41B8-A1C8-C7946F56CD07@gmail.com> On Mar 25, 2024, at 12:01?PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > M > -----Original Message----- > From: Keith Henson > Subject: Re: [ExI] libertarians nominate none of these > >> ...Spike, if I have ever met a Green party member I don't remember it... > > Ja, the Green party is an even odder mixture than Libertarians. There are preservationists, as I am, but who insist that preservation efforts must be done with private funding. Greens like big government, which makes them incompatible with Libertarians. > > Libertarians have the usual all drugs should be legal crowd, which makes me very nervous, the no-borders crowd, which makes me nervous, and a lot of mutually incompatible factions. If legalizing recreational drugs and allowing free movement of peaceful individuals across national borders makes you nervous, then libertarianism is probably not the right political philosophy for you. (And I?m not talking about the LP, but libertarianism in general. Sure, there are different takes on libertarianism, but if your drug and border policy could fit comfortably inside mainstream politics ? which is very anti-libertarian on both issues ? then you?re outside libertarianism on these issues.) Regards Dan From spike at rainier66.com Wed Mar 27 02:06:34 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2024 19:06:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarians nominate none of these In-Reply-To: <47B4BC06-B774-41B8-A1C8-C7946F56CD07@gmail.com> References: <001e01da7ee6$ad46b100$07d41300$@rainier66.com> <47B4BC06-B774-41B8-A1C8-C7946F56CD07@gmail.com> Message-ID: <011201da7feb$654bf5d0$2fe3e170$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat ... >...If legalizing recreational drugs and allowing free movement of peaceful individuals across national borders makes you nervous, then libertarianism is probably not the right political philosophy for you... Regards Dan _______________________________________________ Hi Dan, ja to all. I don't claim to be a mainstream libertarian. If all borders are completely open, every country in the world will ship their prisoners to you. You get to care for them free of charge, and clean up their messes. If all drugs are legal, they soon get mixed with pharmaceuticals, as opium did in the 19th century. Both of those have bad consequences. But spending beyond federal government's revenue has even worse consequences, which is why the runaway spending is most intense focus in elections. Viewed from that perspective, it is often difficult to distinguish between the mainstream parties. spike From tcporco at gmail.com Wed Mar 27 03:20:55 2024 From: tcporco at gmail.com (Travis Porco) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2024 20:20:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] after upload, what? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: Adrian Tymes > > > Forgive me for delurking, > > > No forgiveness needed. Welcome to the chat! > > > > but perhaps the time has come to ask *how* > > to do an upload or upload-like activity right now, today, with > > existing technology...extracting enough memory and identity to > > generate an authorized continuing agent for yourself, without being > > distracted by worries about whether it is "really you" and so forth. > > As I follow these discussions I find the philosophical worries merely > > lead to inaction, and in some cases, contain elements dismissive of > > the value of lives. > > > Well...there is one option with today's technology, but it'd be heck of > impractically expensive for a human brain, though I hear something like > this might be being done with insect brains. Yes--I hear they have mapped out the "connectome" of an insect brain (Winding et al, Science, March 2023), but apparently they don't know whether the connections are inhibitory or excitatory; it's just structural so far. > Map out and simulate each neuron, one by one. Make a good enough (which > likely requires near-perfect in practice) software simulation of the > neuron, including its synapses (its inputs and outputs). Connect these > neuron simulations together, in the exact same fashion as the actual > neurons are connected. Run the whole thing on a powerful enough computer - > which involves massive parallelism, even for insect simulations, thus the > expense. There also needs to be blank/spare/extra hardware to simulate > growth of new neurons over time (not as many as already exist in the > running brain, but a nonzero amount, with a potentially indefinite cap if > the simulated brain lives forever; more hardware can be added over time to > support this, but this might put a cap on the practical maximum speed-up if > the uploaded brain is to run significantly faster than the original). > This misses input from the rest of the body, but it's a start (and can help > narrow down exactly what the rest of the body's inputs are). This is what I'd call a "maximalist" approach, aiming to do it right. I'm more looking for "good enough, right now". I'd like to see as much of the 'narrative self' preserved, in any format, using any substrate, with a hope of further growth or regrowth later. What are the limits on the "minimalist" side? One could use an authorized biography, images, notes, etc.--as much information as you can download or extract from the brain using the "built-in" I/O if you will. (I know not everyone loves brain-as-computer metaphors). Use a fine-tuned LLM or a collection of them, using some "agent" framework. There has been some discussion out there of these so-called "digital ghosts" or "memorial chatbots", usually derogatory, but I think the discussion has been shallow and dismissive. But certainly such efforts could hardly be called "uploads". What you would get with March 2024 technology would be a far cry from ideal...but I'm interested not in whether it is a desirable final endpoint. Like the cryonicists say, it only has to beat the alternative: guaranteed oblivion! Long term one would need more capable agents and models--today's are too shallow and incapable of genuine autonomy. Longer term still, one needs a better hardware. I do not for a moment think that the sort of chat-agent we could make today is conscious, and so the chat-agent needs to have this as a goal. I suspect that the insect connectome work will lead someone in the right direction. From atymes at gmail.com Wed Mar 27 03:45:54 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2024 20:45:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] after upload, what? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 8:22?PM Travis Porco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I'm more looking for > "good enough, right now". I'd like to see as much of the 'narrative > self' preserved, in any format, using > any substrate, with a hope of further growth or regrowth later. What > are the limits on the "minimalist" side? > Minimalist with hope of regrowth back to the full self? Right now, that's just cryonics. Nothing less expensive than that gives something that future technology can theoretically build on (short of time travel to observe and/or extract from you while you were still alive). Minimalist without that hope? Let someone else tell your story. It's not just free, but people will do that anyway. It's what a lot of people settle for, when they speak of "immortality", but I say it doesn't deserve that label. I > suspect that the insect connectome work will lead someone in > the right direction. > So do I. Probably the best hope for someone about to die today, is to get frozen with the best preservation affordable on the budget available, in the hopes that future technology extending from this research will eventually make restoration from said frozen archive possible - and that whoever maintains the archive will follow through on their ancestors' promise to restore you once it becomes possible. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Wed Mar 27 04:40:03 2024 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2024 05:40:03 +0100 Subject: [ExI] DRAFT of my new book Message-ID: I made the draft of my new book open to a group of early readers. Irrational mechanics DRAFT 03.22.24. DRAFT narrative sketch of a futurist science & a new religion. https://www.turingchurch.com/p/irrational-mechanics-draft-032224 From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Wed Mar 27 12:04:41 2024 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2024 08:04:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] libertarians nominate none of these In-Reply-To: <011201da7feb$654bf5d0$2fe3e170$@rainier66.com> References: <011201da7feb$654bf5d0$2fe3e170$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <2E717063-909B-4382-8723-8EFFA6CAD06C@alumni.virginia.edu> > On Mar 26, 2024, at 10:06?PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > If all drugs are legal, they soon get mixed with pharmaceuticals, as opium did in the 19th century. I don?t buy this. This is a current problem now with black market drug purity. Crap gets mixed in or outright is substituted for what people are seeking. You seem to be referring to regulation and labeling issues vs legalization. People who advocate for legalization aren?t expecting to find cocaine in Coca-Cola after that, but it might mean you can go to a dispensary and buy cocaine in a pure uncut form without fentanyl in it, for example. That reduces harm in my mind, not the opposite. Portugal, for example, which is engaging in an experiment in legalization/decriminalization right now doesn?t have the problem you refer to. Now, if you are suggesting that a Libertarian would advocate for the abolishment of literally all regulation, which is a very extreme version of a libertarian I might add, then perhaps what you suggest could be a problem. But I haven?t heard anyone advocate for that version of libertarianism in a long time. People seem to prefer at least some regulations around basic safety. No one wants a window to fly off a plane while in mid flight or to take a mislabeled drug. Allowing trial error to determine what is safe and the free market to follow will never become popular if people are dying in rapid succession, I suggest. -Henry From spike at rainier66.com Wed Mar 27 13:59:32 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2024 06:59:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] libertarians nominate none of these In-Reply-To: <2E717063-909B-4382-8723-8EFFA6CAD06C@alumni.virginia.edu> References: <011201da7feb$654bf5d0$2fe3e170$@rainier66.com> <2E717063-909B-4382-8723-8EFFA6CAD06C@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: <004301da804e$feda8870$fc8f9950$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: Henry Rivera Cc: spike at rainier66.com Subject: Re: [ExI] libertarians nominate none of these > On Mar 26, 2024, at 10:06?PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > >>... If all drugs are legal, they soon get mixed with pharmaceuticals, as opium did in the 19th century. >...I don?t buy this. This is a current problem now with black market drug purity. Crap gets mixed in or outright is substituted for what people are seeking. ... >...-Henry Ja, a big part of the drug problem I understand is that cheap fentanyl is mixed with a lot of more expensive stuff. Henry, where the USA is going now is that even if we do not choose libertarianism, libertarianism will choose us, whether we like it or not. Our congress has demonstrated it cannot control its budget and doesn't really have the will to do it. That means in the easily foreseeable, the government cannot afford many or most of the services it is currently buying. When the Social Security fund is exhausted and reverts to Pay As You Go, we will take a hard look at whether border enforcement is still needed if it means starving existing citizens. Same with Food and Drug administration. Same with all those departments at the federal level. Henry I don't understand Spanish, but you do. Even to me, a non-speaker, it is clear enough to me what is happening in this video: https://www.ansa.it/sito/videogallery/mondo/2023/11/20/argentina-quando-milei-annuncio-la-cancellazione-di-11-ministeri_2aed0acc-ba90-4100-a332-7722d124162e.html In about ten years, the USA will get someone like Milei in charge, and we will remember what gentle lambs these current leaders were. spike From scerir at gmail.com Wed Mar 27 15:58:44 2024 From: scerir at gmail.com (serafino cerulli-irelli) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2024 16:58:44 +0100 Subject: [ExI] DRAFT of my new book In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Giulio. Chapter 5 - ?Mathematics falls into G?del?s trap when it talks about itself. We are parts of physical reality that talk about it from inside physical reality itself. John von Neumann considered the possibility that ?the information available to the observer regarding his own state could have absolute limitations, by the laws of nature? [von Neumann 2018]. It seems plausible that any theory of physical reality that we can formulate from the inside must be incomplete, with some irreducible indeterminacy.? Long time ago, David Finkelstein was interested in "introspective" systems. *"There is, to be sure, a genuine problem in the phenomenon of quantum measurement, but I will not discuss it here. It concerns introspective systems, where subject = object so that the basic conception of a single subject observing an ensemble of objects must be modified."* -- David Finkelstein, "The Physics of Logic", in "Paradigms and Paradoxes", ed. R. G. Colodny, 1971, Un. Pittsburgh, p. 60 . I wrote a short email and he responded. *"Weizs?cker proposed in conversation that in fact the observer divides into two parts on such occasions, and then one observes the other as usual. When the observer is outside the system, the measurement is represented by a time-dependent interaction Hamiltonian. This would not make sense for self-observation, but one can imagine a self-interaction governed by an internal parameter instead of time."* Privo di virus.www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 at 05:41, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I made the draft of my new book open to a group of early readers. > Irrational mechanics DRAFT 03.22.24. > DRAFT narrative sketch of a futurist science & a new religion. > https://www.turingchurch.com/p/irrational-mechanics-draft-032224 > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Mar 27 17:15:01 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2024 10:15:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] DRAFT of my new book In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002a01da806a$4e4a6cc0$eadf4640$@rainier66.com> ? On Behalf Of serafino cerulli-irelli via extropy-chat Cc: serafino cerulli-irelli Subject: Re: [ExI] DRAFT of my new book >?Hi Giulio. >?Chapter 5 - ?Mathematics falls into G?del?s trap when it talks about itself? I never fall into G?del?s trap. I walk into it willingly. Serafino! Where the heck have you been, me lad? We missed you. We heard once from you in December, and it was about a decade before that we were Serafinoless. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scerir at gmail.com Wed Mar 27 18:49:12 2024 From: scerir at gmail.com (serafino cerulli-irelli) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2024 19:49:12 +0100 Subject: [ExI] DRAFT of my new book In-Reply-To: <002a01da806a$4e4a6cc0$eadf4640$@rainier66.com> References: <002a01da806a$4e4a6cc0$eadf4640$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Hi Spike! time goes so fast, I'm 75 now, still reading exi-chat. In Portugal they say "Vive-nos a vida, n?o n?s a vida"! Ciao s. Privo di virus.www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 at 18:15, wrote: > > > > > *?* *On Behalf Of *serafino cerulli-irelli via extropy-chat > *Cc:* serafino cerulli-irelli > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] DRAFT of my new book > > > > >?Hi Giulio. > > >?Chapter 5 - ?Mathematics falls into G?del?s trap when it talks about > itself? > > > > > > > > I never fall into G?del?s trap. I walk into it willingly. > > > > Serafino! Where the heck have you been, me lad? We missed you. We heard > once from you in December, and it was about a decade before that we were > Serafinoless. > > > > spike > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Mar 27 20:43:23 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2024 20:43:23 +0000 Subject: [ExI] DRAFT of my new book In-Reply-To: References: <002a01da806a$4e4a6cc0$eadf4640$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 at 18:52, serafino cerulli-irelli via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Hi Spike! > time goes so fast, I'm 75 now, still reading exi-chat. > In Portugal they say "Vive-nos a vida, n?o n?s a vida"! > Ciao s. > --------------------------------------------------- Well, I never expected that! :) I just thought to give Claude AI a challenge and ask him what that Portuguese saying means. First, I didn't expect him to speak Portuguese, far less understand the meaning. But I guess he can, as he started off by saying that your quote was grammatically incorrect in Portuguese and doesn't make much sense. He then said that you probably mean the well-known Portuguese saying "Vivemos a vida, n?o n?s a vida" and explained that. Is Claude AI becoming superhuman? I really wonder....... BillK Claude AI - The Portuguese saying "Vivemos a vida, n?o n?s a vida" can be translated to English as "We live life, life doesn't live us." The meaning behind this saying is quite profound and philosophical. Let's break it down: 1. "Vivemos a vida" (We live life): This part suggests that we, as individuals, are the active agents in our lives. We are the ones who make decisions, take actions, and shape our own experiences. 2. "n?o n?s a vida" (life doesn't live us): This part implies that life itself is not in control of us. We are not merely passive participants being carried along by the currents of life. The saying encourages people to take ownership of their lives and to be proactive in creating the kind of life they want to live. It emphasizes the idea that we have the power to make choices and to influence the direction of our lives, rather than simply letting life happen to us. In essence, the saying is a reminder to be an active participant in one's own life, to make the most of the opportunities presented, and to not let life's challenges or obstacles dictate one's path. It's a call to embrace agency, responsibility, and the power of choice in shaping one's own life journey. ------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Thu Mar 28 05:01:34 2024 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2024 06:01:34 +0100 Subject: [ExI] DRAFT of my new book In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 5:00?PM serafino cerulli-irelli via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Hi Giulio. > > Chapter 5 - ?Mathematics falls into G?del?s trap when it talks about > itself. We are parts of physical reality that talk about it from inside > physical reality itself. John von Neumann considered the possibility that > ?the information available to the observer regarding his own state could > have absolute limitations, by the laws of nature? [von Neumann 2018]. It > seems plausible that any theory of physical reality that we can formulate > from the inside must be incomplete, with some irreducible indeterminacy.? > > Long time ago, David Finkelstein was interested in "introspective" systems. > > *"There is, to be sure, a genuine problem in the phenomenon of quantum > measurement, but I will not discuss it here. It concerns introspective > systems, where subject = object so that the basic conception of a single > subject observing an ensemble of objects must be modified."* -- David > Finkelstein, "The Physics of Logic", in "Paradigms and Paradoxes", ed. R. > G. Colodny, 1971, Un. Pittsburgh, p. 60 . > > I wrote a short email and he responded. *"Weizs?cker proposed in > conversation that in fact the observer divides into two parts on such > occasions, and then one observes the other as usual. When the observer is > outside the system, the measurement is represented by a time-dependent > interaction Hamiltonian. This would not make sense for self-observation, > but one can imagine a self-interaction governed by an internal parameter > instead of time."* > Thank you Serafino for sending me great relevant references! G. > > > > Privo > di virus.www.avast.com > > <#m_4435841440276598735_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 at 05:41, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I made the draft of my new book open to a group of early readers. >> Irrational mechanics DRAFT 03.22.24. >> DRAFT narrative sketch of a futurist science & a new religion. >> https://www.turingchurch.com/p/irrational-mechanics-draft-032224 >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Thu Mar 28 05:02:41 2024 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2024 06:02:41 +0100 Subject: [ExI] DRAFT of my new book In-Reply-To: References: <002a01da806a$4e4a6cc0$eadf4640$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 7:51?PM serafino cerulli-irelli via extropy-chat wrote: > > Hi Spike! > time goes so fast, I'm 75 now, still reading exi-chat. > In Portugal they say "Vive-nos a vida, n?o n?s a vida"! > Ciao s. > 66 here and still reading exi-chat. Time goes so fast indeed. G. > Privo di virus.www.avast.com > > On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 at 18:15, wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> ? On Behalf Of serafino cerulli-irelli via extropy-chat >> Cc: serafino cerulli-irelli >> Subject: Re: [ExI] DRAFT of my new book >> >> >> >> >?Hi Giulio. >> >> >?Chapter 5 - ?Mathematics falls into G?del?s trap when it talks about itself? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I never fall into G?del?s trap. I walk into it willingly. >> >> >> >> Serafino! Where the heck have you been, me lad? We missed you. We heard once from you in December, and it was about a decade before that we were Serafinoless. >> >> >> >> spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From spike at rainier66.com Thu Mar 28 05:47:13 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2024 22:47:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] DRAFT of my new book In-Reply-To: References: <002a01da806a$4e4a6cc0$eadf4640$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007501da80d3$62acaf70$28060e50$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: Giulio Prisco Subject: Re: [ExI] DRAFT of my new book On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 7:51?PM serafino cerulli-irelli via extropy-chat wrote: > > ...Hi Spike! > time goes so fast, I'm 75 now, still reading exi-chat. > In Portugal they say "Vive-nos a vida, n?o n?s a vida"! > Ciao s. > >...66 here and still reading exi-chat. Time goes so fast indeed. G. I heard that, but I thought time goes by slowly. Being an engineering and science geek, I decided to measure it, to see if time goes slow or fast. So I timed it. The same amount of time went by as my stopwatch said, exactly the same amount. It was a tie. So time goes by neither fast nor slow. It just goes by. So the song was right: https://www.google.com/search?q=as+time+goes+by+song&sca_esv=37ec618459549654&source=hp&ei=aQMFZuTRBIbhkPIPxa-UyAw&iflsig=ANes7DEAAAAAZgUReQ9MLHslHjuIluY6E4LNSEBv03aM&ved=0ahUKEwikqqj6n5aFAxWGMEQIHcUXBckQ4dUDCBc&uact=5&oq=as+time+goes+by+song&gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhRhcyB0aW1lIGdvZXMgYnkgc29uZzIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAuGIAEMgUQLhiABDIFEC4YgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQLhiABDIFEAAYgARIlCpQAFjEKHAAeACQAQCYAUqgAbwKqgECMjC4AQPIAQD4AQGYAhSgAuwKwgIREC4YgAQYsQMYgwEYxwEY0QPCAgsQABiABBixAxiDAcICCxAuGIAEGMcBGNEDwgIOEC4YgAQYigUYsQMYgwHCAg4QABiABBiKBRixAxiDAcICDhAuGIAEGLEDGMcBGNEDwgILEC4YgAQYsQMYgwHCAggQLhiABBixA8ICCxAuGIAEGMcBGK8BwgIIEAAYgAQYsQPCAgsQLhiABBixAxjUAsICCBAuGLEDGIAEmAMAkgcCMjCgB77nAQ&sclient=gws-wiz#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:d04aa8eb.aebaea00,vid:Do2olZ49M54,st:0 spike From scerir at gmail.com Thu Mar 28 08:12:14 2024 From: scerir at gmail.com (serafino cerulli-irelli) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2024 09:12:14 +0100 Subject: [ExI] DRAFT of my new book In-Reply-To: References: <002a01da806a$4e4a6cc0$eadf4640$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: BTW, the Portuguese saying comes from a poem by Fernando Pessoa Vive-nos a vida, n?o n?s a vida O paradoxo n?o ? meu; sou eu. Sou um espelhamento de cacos. Quantos sou eu? Sabes quem sou? Eu n?o sei. Medo de amor. Sou minha pr?pria paisagem; Assisto ? minha passagem, Como de um sonho formado sobre realidades mistas, Sinto-me m?ltiplo. Sou como um quarto com in?meros espelhos fant?sticos que torcem para reflex?es falsas, uma ?nica anterior realidade que n?o est? em nenhuma e est? em todas. Que importa o areal e a morte e a desventura Se com Deus me guardei? ? o que eu me sonhei que eterno dura, ? esse que regressarei. Privo di virus.www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 at 21:45, BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 at 18:52, serafino cerulli-irelli via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Hi Spike! >> time goes so fast, I'm 75 now, still reading exi-chat. >> In Portugal they say "Vive-nos a vida, n?o n?s a vida"! >> Ciao s. >> > --------------------------------------------------- > > Well, I never expected that! :) > I just thought to give Claude AI a challenge and ask him what that > Portuguese saying means. > First, I didn't expect him to speak Portuguese, far less understand the > meaning. > But I guess he can, as he started off by saying that your quote was > grammatically incorrect in Portuguese and doesn't make much sense. > He then said that you probably mean the well-known Portuguese saying "Vivemos > a vida, n?o n?s a vida" and explained that. > Is Claude AI becoming superhuman? I really wonder....... > BillK > > Claude AI - > The Portuguese saying "Vivemos a vida, n?o n?s a vida" can be translated > to English as "We live life, life doesn't live us." The meaning behind this > saying is quite profound and philosophical. Let's break it down: > > 1. "Vivemos a vida" (We live life): This part suggests that we, as > individuals, are the active agents in our lives. We are the ones who make > decisions, take actions, and shape our own experiences. > > 2. "n?o n?s a vida" (life doesn't live us): This part implies that life > itself is not in control of us. We are not merely passive participants > being carried along by the currents of life. > > The saying encourages people to take ownership of their lives and to be > proactive in creating the kind of life they want to live. It emphasizes the > idea that we have the power to make choices and to influence the direction > of our lives, rather than simply letting life happen to us. > > In essence, the saying is a reminder to be an active participant in one's > own life, to make the most of the opportunities presented, and to not let > life's challenges or obstacles dictate one's path. It's a call to embrace > agency, responsibility, and the power of choice in shaping one's own life > journey. > ------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From postmowoods at gmail.com Thu Mar 28 08:55:11 2024 From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2024 02:55:11 -0600 Subject: [ExI] libertarians nominate none of these In-Reply-To: <2E717063-909B-4382-8723-8EFFA6CAD06C@alumni.virginia.edu> References: <011201da7feb$654bf5d0$2fe3e170$@rainier66.com> <2E717063-909B-4382-8723-8EFFA6CAD06C@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: I'm replying to a bunch of stuff in this thread... I'm a Libertarian, though in self interest, I might temporarily declare as a Republican to be able to vote in the local primary which affects me directly. Even donated to a guy who I think is the more libertarian of the two Rs running in the primary. I hope he wins, but I don't think he has much of a chance. Anyway, as far as legalized drugs go, I'm personally in favor of making ALL drugs legal, including pharmaceuticals, without prescriptions. I would advocate for keeping actual pharmacies, so that you knew what you were buying was actually the drug you were paying for even if it is heroin. Prescription drugs are a big racket, just like illegal drugs and I think we could do with a few less of all those. I'd love to see some of the big pharma people in jail. But I believe in freedom more than any other value, especially over safety. Safety is overrated in our society. So this is an example of why the Libertarian party will probably never win. Guys like me have fully independent thoughts. We don't buy into what any prepackaged set of ideals that are peddled by say Fox or MSNBC. If you have several dozens of millions of people like me that have fully independent thought patterns, how do you create a party platform that we'll all agree to? I want legal immigration of a large number of law-abiding immigrants to help solve our demographic issues. Good for America, bad for everyone else, but pretty much everyone else is more or less screwed in any case. No, I don't believe at all in open borders. I do think traffic laws are good, but I don't believe we need an Interstate Highway System to be maintained by the government. I think we have enough technology at this point for ALL roads to basically be toll roads, and you pay for what you drive on to a private system (perhaps a different system for each road) and Google can route you cheaply or route you fast. But the government is out of the way, and you can decide how well maintained a road you want to take. I do believe that there needs to be environmental protection so that the commons can't be raped by individuals who would burn down the world if it made them a few bucks. Dangerous people need to be in jail, and the government should provide a judicial system to keep us safe from bad people. Private prisons are a bad idea though. The military is necessary, and I'm against a world government. I do see the point of the US Navy providing security on the high seas and keeping piracy to a minimum. While I think religious freedom is an important right, I don't think religions should avoid taxes. I think the gold standard MIGHT be a good thing, but I'm not fully decided on that and I love cryptocurrency as a concept and Defi is particularly interesting if there is AI to setup smart contracts with a minimum number of loopholes. Should the government get involved in limiting AI? I just don't know yet... probably not because of the unintended side effects and that just leaves the bad guys with guns, so to speak. I'm not in favor of any weapons ban, except for weapons of mass destruction (the stuff even the government really shouldn't ever need or use). I think abortion should be available, but not paid for by the government. I'd love to see us get rid of health insurance altogether other than for major stuff because that bureaucracy is what makes things expensive. You see? Random crazy positions that could never form the basis of a party platform. There are probably six or seven people in the world that would agree with my positions on everything, and you can't form a party like that. You can only form functional parties from mostly sheep that believe the same things. Independent lone wolves just can't herd. We're like cats. Unfortunately, even though I agree with a lot of the Libertarian type thoughts, and even go objectivist or transhumanist on a lot of things, I won't join a herd and give up my rights to independent thought. I can't even agree with myself from year to year as my thoughts evolve and my positions become better informed. So you see, that's why the Libertarians are never going to win the presidency. ANYONE who is Libertarian is going to have one or two totally crazy positions on SOMETHING, and therefore people wouldn't be able to vote for them. Plus quite a few are atheists which means absolutely nobody will vote for them in America, because the only people polling lower than atheists on the "I'll never vote for a..." poll are pedophiles. Sorry to ramble on there, but I feel like I'm a good example of why Libertarians can't herd. On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 6:05?AM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > On Mar 26, 2024, at 10:06?PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > If all drugs are legal, they soon get mixed with pharmaceuticals, as opium did in the 19th century. > > I don?t buy this. This is a current problem now with black market drug purity. Crap gets mixed in or outright is substituted for what people are seeking. > > You seem to be referring to regulation and labeling issues vs legalization. People who advocate for legalization aren?t expecting to find cocaine in Coca-Cola after that, but it might mean you can go to a dispensary and buy cocaine in a pure uncut form without fentanyl in it, for example. That reduces harm in my mind, not the opposite. Portugal, for example, which is engaging in an experiment in legalization/decriminalization right now doesn?t have the problem you refer to. > > Now, if you are suggesting that a Libertarian would advocate for the abolishment of literally all regulation, which is a very extreme version of a libertarian I might add, then perhaps what you suggest could be a problem. But I haven?t heard anyone advocate for that version of libertarianism in a long time. People seem to prefer at least some regulations around basic safety. No one wants a window to fly off a plane while in mid flight or to take a mislabeled drug. Allowing trial error to determine what is safe and the free market to follow will never become popular if people are dying in rapid succession, I suggest. > > -Henry > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From efc at swisscows.email Thu Mar 28 09:35:56 2024 From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2024 10:35:56 +0100 (CET) Subject: [ExI] libertarians nominate none of these In-Reply-To: References: <011201da7feb$654bf5d0$2fe3e170$@rainier66.com> <2E717063-909B-4382-8723-8EFFA6CAD06C@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: <77f4ae17-7092-d039-0108-0890cec1ea8c@swisscows.email> On Thu, 28 Mar 2024, Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat wrote: > I'm replying to a bunch of stuff in this thread... ... > Sorry to ramble on there, but I feel like I'm a good example of why > Libertarians can't herd. I think libertarianism is only workable on an individual or small community level given the world as it currently is. Individually you can use lawyers, voting with your feet, legal loop holes etc. to live a fairly libertarian life. It is probably possible to do the same in a small community. But for bigger groups, the iron fist of the government will quickly crush you. To realize a libertarian project at scale, I think something big needs to happen on the national level to really shake peoples faith up a bit. Another route which I find interesting is if some large corporation or billionaire turns libertarian enough to deal with a bankrupt small country in africa or the caribbean. I could easily imagine, given the corruption and bad finances, that a small country there might sell a piece of their land and grant that piece of land tax free status as long as funds trickle down into the regular economy. I think there have been attempts actually, but they probably did not get anywhere or we all would have heard about their success. Best regards, Daniel > > On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 6:05?AM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat > wrote: >> >> >> > On Mar 26, 2024, at 10:06?PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >> > >> > If all drugs are legal, they soon get mixed with pharmaceuticals, as opium did in the 19th century. >> >> I don?t buy this. This is a current problem now with black market drug purity. Crap gets mixed in or outright is substituted for what people are seeking. >> >> You seem to be referring to regulation and labeling issues vs legalization. People who advocate for legalization aren?t expecting to find cocaine in Coca-Cola after that, but it might mean you can go to a dispensary and buy cocaine in a pure uncut form without fentanyl in it, for example. That reduces harm in my mind, not the opposite. Portugal, for example, which is engaging in an experiment in legalization/decriminalization right now doesn?t have the problem you refer to. >> >> Now, if you are suggesting that a Libertarian would advocate for the abolishment of literally all regulation, which is a very extreme version of a libertarian I might add, then perhaps what you suggest could be a problem. But I haven?t heard anyone advocate for that version of libertarianism in a long time. People seem to prefer at least some regulations around basic safety. No one wants a window to fly off a plane while in mid flight or to take a mislabeled drug. Allowing trial error to determine what is safe and the free market to follow will never become popular if people are dying in rapid succession, I suggest. >> >> -Henry >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From pharos at gmail.com Thu Mar 28 12:11:25 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2024 12:11:25 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Portuguese Poem Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Mar 2024 at 08:15, serafino cerulli-irelli via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > BTW, the Portuguese saying comes from a poem by Fernando Pessoa > > Vive-nos a vida, n?o n?s a vida > O paradoxo n?o ? meu; sou eu. > Sou um espelhamento de cacos. > Quantos sou eu? Sabes quem sou? > Eu n?o sei. Medo de amor. > Sou minha pr?pria paisagem; > Assisto ? minha passagem, > Como de um sonho formado sobre realidades mistas, > Sinto-me m?ltiplo. > Sou como um quarto com in?meros espelhos fant?sticos que torcem para > reflex?es falsas, uma > ?nica anterior realidade que n?o est? em nenhuma e est? em todas. > Que importa o areal e a morte e a desventura > Se com Deus me guardei? > ? o que eu me sonhei que eterno dura, > ? esse que regressarei. > > > > ------------------------------------------- I asked Claude to comment on this poem, to see how he tackles poems in a foreign language. Surprisingly well, is the answer! BillK Claude3 Opus AI In this poem, Fernando Pessoa delves into the complex and paradoxical nature of identity and the self. The poem is a profound reflection on the fragmented and multifaceted aspects of one's being. The opening line, "Vive-nos a vida, n?o n?s a vida" ("Life lives us, we do not live life"), suggests that life itself is the active force, and we are merely the vessels through which it flows. This sets the stage for the exploration of the paradoxical nature of the self that follows. Pessoa acknowledges that the paradox is not external to him but is an integral part of his own being: "O paradoxo n?o ? meu; sou eu" ("The paradox is not mine; it is me"). He describes himself as "um espelhamento de cacos" ("a mirroring of shards"), indicating a fragmented and diverse sense of self. The question "Quantos sou eu?" ("How many am I?") emphasizes the multiplicity of identities within oneself. Pessoa grapples with the uncertainty of self-knowledge, admitting, "Eu n?o sei" ("I don't know"), and expresses a "Medo de amor" ("Fear of love"), perhaps suggesting a hesitation to fully embrace or understand his own being. The poem then shifts to a metaphorical landscape, with Pessoa stating, "Sou minha pr?pria paisagem" ("I am my own landscape"). This implies that his identity is a vast and complex terrain that he observes and experiences from within. He watches his own passage through this landscape, as if in a dream composed of mixed realities. The image of a room with countless fantastic mirrors that distort reflections further emphasizes the multiplicity and illusory nature of the self. Pessoa feels "m?ltiplo" ("multiple"), recognizing that his true reality is not found in any single reflection but is scattered across all of them. In the final stanza, Pessoa seems to find solace in the idea of having guarded himself with God. Despite the challenges of the "areal" ("sand"), "morte" ("death"), and "desventura" ("misfortune"), he finds comfort in the eternal nature of what he has dreamed himself to be. It is to this eternal self that he believes he will return. The poem invites readers to contemplate the nature of identity and the self. It raises questions about the unity or multiplicity of one's being, the challenges of self-knowledge, and the role of the divine in shaping one's sense of self. Questions to consider: 1. How do we reconcile the seemingly paradoxical and fragmented aspects of our own identities? 2. In what ways do our self-perceptions and the perceptions of others contribute to the complexity of our sense of self? 3. How can we find stability and meaning amidst the shifting and illusory nature of the self? ------------------------------------ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scerir at gmail.com Thu Mar 28 13:02:36 2024 From: scerir at gmail.com (serafino cerulli-irelli) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2024 14:02:36 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Portuguese Poem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Very good, Claude 3 at his best! Privo di virus.www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> On Thu, 28 Mar 2024 at 13:13, BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, 28 Mar 2024 at 08:15, serafino cerulli-irelli via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> BTW, the Portuguese saying comes from a poem by Fernando Pessoa >> >> Vive-nos a vida, n?o n?s a vida >> O paradoxo n?o ? meu; sou eu. >> Sou um espelhamento de cacos. >> Quantos sou eu? Sabes quem sou? >> Eu n?o sei. Medo de amor. >> Sou minha pr?pria paisagem; >> Assisto ? minha passagem, >> Como de um sonho formado sobre realidades mistas, >> Sinto-me m?ltiplo. >> Sou como um quarto com in?meros espelhos fant?sticos que torcem para >> reflex?es falsas, uma >> ?nica anterior realidade que n?o est? em nenhuma e est? em todas. >> Que importa o areal e a morte e a desventura >> Se com Deus me guardei? >> ? o que eu me sonhei que eterno dura, >> ? esse que regressarei. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------- > > > > > I asked Claude to comment on this poem, to see how he tackles poems in a > foreign language. Surprisingly well, is the answer! > BillK > > Claude3 Opus AI > In this poem, Fernando Pessoa delves into the complex and paradoxical > nature of identity and the self. The poem is a profound reflection on the > fragmented and multifaceted aspects of one's being. > > The opening line, "Vive-nos a vida, n?o n?s a vida" ("Life lives us, we do > not live life"), suggests that life itself is the active force, and we are > merely the vessels through which it flows. This sets the stage for the > exploration of the paradoxical nature of the self that follows. > > Pessoa acknowledges that the paradox is not external to him but is an > integral part of his own being: "O paradoxo n?o ? meu; sou eu" ("The > paradox is not mine; it is me"). He describes himself as "um espelhamento > de cacos" ("a mirroring of shards"), indicating a fragmented and diverse > sense of self. > > The question "Quantos sou eu?" ("How many am I?") emphasizes the > multiplicity of identities within oneself. Pessoa grapples with the > uncertainty of self-knowledge, admitting, "Eu n?o sei" ("I don't know"), > and expresses a "Medo de amor" ("Fear of love"), perhaps suggesting a > hesitation to fully embrace or understand his own being. > > The poem then shifts to a metaphorical landscape, with Pessoa stating, > "Sou minha pr?pria paisagem" ("I am my own landscape"). This implies that > his identity is a vast and complex terrain that he observes and experiences > from within. He watches his own passage through this landscape, as if in a > dream composed of mixed realities. > > The image of a room with countless fantastic mirrors that distort > reflections further emphasizes the multiplicity and illusory nature of the > self. Pessoa feels "m?ltiplo" ("multiple"), recognizing that his true > reality is not found in any single reflection but is scattered across all > of them. > > In the final stanza, Pessoa seems to find solace in the idea of having > guarded himself with God. Despite the challenges of the "areal" ("sand"), > "morte" ("death"), and "desventura" ("misfortune"), he finds comfort in the > eternal nature of what he has dreamed himself to be. It is to this eternal > self that he believes he will return. > > The poem invites readers to contemplate the nature of identity and the > self. It raises questions about the unity or multiplicity of one's being, > the challenges of self-knowledge, and the role of the divine in shaping > one's sense of self. > > Questions to consider: > 1. How do we reconcile the seemingly paradoxical and fragmented aspects of > our own identities? > 2. In what ways do our self-perceptions and the perceptions of others > contribute to the complexity of our sense of self? > 3. How can we find stability and meaning amidst the shifting and illusory > nature of the self? > ------------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Mar 28 15:28:12 2024 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2024 10:28:12 -0500 Subject: [ExI] libertarians nominate none of these In-Reply-To: References: <011201da7feb$654bf5d0$2fe3e170$@rainier66.com> <2E717063-909B-4382-8723-8EFFA6CAD06C@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: For many years I shared the view that nobody should be able to tell me what I can put into my body, such as prescription drugs. I changed my mind. Consider just how news about drugs (prescription, OTC, illegal) travels the web. Superstitions abound amid some probably good advice. Add in that a significant portion of the population are mentally challenged, are psychotic, are just plain stupid, and you have a recipe for hundreds of thousands of people harming themselves and others (including their children) by taking prescription drugs they really have no idea how to use properly ("If I take two won't that work faster and better?"). Opiates will addict millions and many will die of overdoses. You think it's bad now? What this view of legalizing comes down to is Social Darwinism - "If you are stupid enough to take the drug you deserve the effects, including death." You might swallow that line for adults (I don't), but what about the children who are dosed by parents (or peers- I assume no age limit for purchasing drugs)? This is just unacceptable to me. Sometimes we need a nanny state. I have to accept that and the limitations it puts on me regardless of the fact that I am not stupid, psychotic, superstitious, and so on. Making all drugs available to all people will create a nightmare. For the same reason I accept that we have to have traffic laws to help keep morons from killing themselves and other people. No doubt you could think of more laws that protect people from themselves. Yes, I am a libertarian, but some things are just not possible, given the mental limitations of many human beings. The Interstate Highway System was started because Eisenhower wanted it so the defense department could mobilize and get places faster in case of war/invasion. bill w On Thu, Mar 28, 2024 at 3:57?AM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I'm replying to a bunch of stuff in this thread... > > I'm a Libertarian, though in self interest, I might temporarily > declare as a Republican to be able to vote in the local primary which > affects me directly. Even donated to a guy who I think is the more > libertarian of the two Rs running in the primary. I hope he wins, but > I don't think he has much of a chance. > > Anyway, as far as legalized drugs go, I'm personally in favor of > making ALL drugs legal, including pharmaceuticals, without > prescriptions. I would advocate for keeping actual pharmacies, so that > you knew what you were buying was actually the drug you were paying > for even if it is heroin. Prescription drugs are a big racket, just > like illegal drugs and I think we could do with a few less of all > those. I'd love to see some of the big pharma people in jail. But I > believe in freedom more than any other value, especially over safety. > Safety is overrated in our society. > > So this is an example of why the Libertarian party will probably never > win. Guys like me have fully independent thoughts. We don't buy into > what any prepackaged set of ideals that are peddled by say Fox or > MSNBC. If you have several dozens of millions of people like me that > have fully independent thought patterns, how do you create a party > platform that we'll all agree to? I want legal immigration of a large > number of law-abiding immigrants to help solve our demographic issues. > Good for America, bad for everyone else, but pretty much everyone else > is more or less screwed in any case. No, I don't believe at all in > open borders. I do think traffic laws are good, but I don't believe we > need an Interstate Highway System to be maintained by the government. > I think we have enough technology at this point for ALL roads to > basically be toll roads, and you pay for what you drive on to a > private system (perhaps a different system for each road) and Google > can route you cheaply or route you fast. But the government is out of > the way, and you can decide how well maintained a road you want to > take. I do believe that there needs to be environmental protection so > that the commons can't be raped by individuals who would burn down the > world if it made them a few bucks. Dangerous people need to be in > jail, and the government should provide a judicial system to keep us > safe from bad people. Private prisons are a bad idea though. The > military is necessary, and I'm against a world government. I do see > the point of the US Navy providing security on the high seas and > keeping piracy to a minimum. While I think religious freedom is an > important right, I don't think religions should avoid taxes. I think > the gold standard MIGHT be a good thing, but I'm not fully decided on > that and I love cryptocurrency as a concept and Defi is particularly > interesting if there is AI to setup smart contracts with a minimum > number of loopholes. Should the government get involved in limiting > AI? I just don't know yet... probably not because of the unintended > side effects and that just leaves the bad guys with guns, so to speak. > I'm not in favor of any weapons ban, except for weapons of mass > destruction (the stuff even the government really shouldn't ever need > or use). I think abortion should be available, but not paid for by the > government. I'd love to see us get rid of health insurance altogether > other than for major stuff because that bureaucracy is what makes > things expensive. You see? Random crazy positions that could never > form the basis of a party platform. There are probably six or seven > people in the world that would agree with my positions on everything, > and you can't form a party like that. You can only form functional > parties from mostly sheep that believe the same things. Independent > lone wolves just can't herd. We're like cats. Unfortunately, even > though I agree with a lot of the Libertarian type thoughts, and even > go objectivist or transhumanist on a lot of things, I won't join a > herd and give up my rights to independent thought. I can't even agree > with myself from year to year as my thoughts evolve and my positions > become better informed. > > So you see, that's why the Libertarians are never going to win the > presidency. ANYONE who is Libertarian is going to have one or two > totally crazy positions on SOMETHING, and therefore people wouldn't be > able to vote for them. Plus quite a few are atheists which means > absolutely nobody will vote for them in America, because the only > people polling lower than atheists on the "I'll never vote for a..." > poll are pedophiles. > > Sorry to ramble on there, but I feel like I'm a good example of why > Libertarians can't herd. > > On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 6:05?AM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > > > > On Mar 26, 2024, at 10:06?PM, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > If all drugs are legal, they soon get mixed with pharmaceuticals, as > opium did in the 19th century. > > > > I don?t buy this. This is a current problem now with black market drug > purity. Crap gets mixed in or outright is substituted for what people are > seeking. > > > > You seem to be referring to regulation and labeling issues vs > legalization. People who advocate for legalization aren?t expecting to find > cocaine in Coca-Cola after that, but it might mean you can go to a > dispensary and buy cocaine in a pure uncut form without fentanyl in it, for > example. That reduces harm in my mind, not the opposite. Portugal, for > example, which is engaging in an experiment in > legalization/decriminalization right now doesn?t have the problem you refer > to. > > > > Now, if you are suggesting that a Libertarian would advocate for the > abolishment of literally all regulation, which is a very extreme version of > a libertarian I might add, then perhaps what you suggest could be a > problem. But I haven?t heard anyone advocate for that version of > libertarianism in a long time. People seem to prefer at least some > regulations around basic safety. No one wants a window to fly off a plane > while in mid flight or to take a mislabeled drug. Allowing trial error to > determine what is safe and the free market to follow will never become > popular if people are dying in rapid succession, I suggest. > > > > -Henry > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From postmowoods at gmail.com Thu Mar 28 22:35:26 2024 From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2024 16:35:26 -0600 Subject: [ExI] libertarians nominate none of these In-Reply-To: References: <011201da7feb$654bf5d0$2fe3e170$@rainier66.com> <2E717063-909B-4382-8723-8EFFA6CAD06C@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 28, 2024 at 9:29?AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > For many years I shared the view that nobody should be able to tell me what I can put into my body, such as prescription drugs. I changed my mind. > I'm open to having my mind changed with additional information. > Consider just how news about drugs (prescription, OTC, illegal) travels the web. Superstitions abound amid some probably good advice. Add in that a significant portion of the population are mentally challenged, are psychotic, are just plain stupid, and you have a recipe for hundreds of thousands of people harming themselves and others (including their children) by taking prescription drugs they really have no idea how to use properly ("If I take two won't that work faster and better?"). Opiates will addict millions and many will die of overdoses. You think it's bad now? > As a stoic, I don't see death as the worst thing in the world. As a transhumanist, I also want radical life extension. So there is an internal conflict there, to be sure. > What this view of legalizing comes down to is Social Darwinism - "If you are stupid enough to take the drug you deserve the effects, including death." You might swallow that line for adults (I don't), but what about the children who are dosed by parents (or peers- I assume no age limit for purchasing drugs)? > I'm pretty much there for adults. How does this differ from today's situation in which an adult Jehovah's Witness can prevent their child from having a life giving blood transfusion? Just because it's dressed up as religion, it's still a pig. And I do support having different rules for minors. While I support legalizing prostitution for adults, I do not approve for minors because they are not at an age where they can give informed consent. Same with drugs. If you're a minor, there should be some limits. > This is just unacceptable to me. Sometimes we need a nanny state. I have to accept that and the limitations it puts on me regardless of the fact that I am not stupid, psychotic, superstitious, and so on. Making all drugs available to all people will create a nightmare. > I don't like the nanny state, at all. Period. If Darwinism isn't allowed to get some of us, imagine what the human race might look like in 1000 years? > For the same reason I accept that we have to have traffic laws to help keep morons from killing themselves and other people. No doubt you could think of more laws that protect people from themselves. > Those laws protect OTHER people from you being a moron. Driving drunk being illegal isn't about protecting the drunk, but the public from the drunk. I support that kind of law. Your right to swing your fists ends where my nose begins, and perhaps some few centimeters in addition. > Yes, I am a libertarian, but some things are just not possible, given the mental limitations of many human beings. > So the next generation is to be made up completely of people who's parents were too dumb to figure out how to use birth control? That sounds like devolution to me, and it might not lead to a great world. That being said, the next Carrington event will sort a bunch of that out anyway. > The Interstate Highway System was started because Eisenhower wanted it so the defense department could mobilize and get places faster in case of war/invasion. > Understood. But now it's to the point where we could choose to move past that, if we wanted to. In it's time the current form of the interstate highway system was justified for national defence which I see as one of the few areas where governance is actually necessary. Sorry for being so anti-government, but I've had a lot of negative experiences interacting with the bastards. -Kelly From efc at swisscows.email Fri Mar 29 11:29:39 2024 From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2024 12:29:39 +0100 (CET) Subject: [ExI] libertarians nominate none of these In-Reply-To: References: <011201da7feb$654bf5d0$2fe3e170$@rainier66.com> <2E717063-909B-4382-8723-8EFFA6CAD06C@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: <8c186852-9d82-ccae-18b6-bdbe33e7d32c@swisscows.email> On Thu, 28 Mar 2024, Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat wrote: >> Consider just how news about drugs (prescription, OTC, illegal) >> travels the web. Superstitions abound amid some probably good >> advice. Add in that a significant portion of the population are >> mentally challenged, are psychotic, are just plain stupid, and you >> have a recipe for hundreds of thousands of people harming themselves >> and others (including their children) by taking prescription drugs >> they really have no idea how to use properly ("If I take two won't >> that work faster and better?"). Opiates will addict millions and >> many will die of overdoses. You think it's bad now? >> > > As a stoic, I don't see death as the worst thing in the world. As a > transhumanist, I also want radical life extension. So there is an > internal conflict there, to be sure. How do you deal with that conflict? Have you attempted any type of reconciliation of your values? >> What this view of legalizing comes down to is Social Darwinism - "If >> you are stupid enough to take the drug you deserve the effects, >> including death." You might swallow that line for adults (I don't), >> but what about the children who are dosed by parents (or peers- I >> assume no age limit for purchasing drugs)? >> > > I'm pretty much there for adults. How does this differ from today's > situation in which an adult Jehovah's Witness can prevent their child > from having a life giving blood transfusion? Just because it's dressed > up as religion, it's still a pig. And I do support having different > rules for minors. While I support legalizing prostitution for adults, > I do not approve for minors because they are not at an age where they > can give informed consent. Same with drugs. If you're a minor, there > should be some limits. Children and childrens rights is one of the hardest problems for libertarianism in my opinion, at least from a philosophical point of view. The standard answer I've seen is that children are the "property" of the parents until they are old enough to move away or argue their rights. As you can see, hardly a very satisfying answer. Then you end up in the theoretical battle grounds of "what is parents want to kill their child, if he's their property, they are entitled to do that, ergo... libertarianism is wrong". Well, I'm sure you all know the drill from there. >> This is just unacceptable to me. Sometimes we need a nanny state. I >> have to accept that and the limitations it puts on me regardless of >> the fact that I am not stupid, psychotic, superstitious, and so on. >> Making all drugs available to all people will create a nightmare. >> > > I don't like the nanny state, at all. Period. If Darwinism isn't > allowed to get some of us, imagine what the human race might look like > in 1000 years? I like the movie idiocracy as a fun/scary exploration of this theme. >> The Interstate Highway System was started because Eisenhower wanted >> it so the defense department could mobilize and get places faster in >> case of war/invasion. >> > > Understood. But now it's to the point where we could choose to move > past that, if we wanted to. In it's time the current form of the > interstate highway system was justified for national defence which I > see as one of the few areas where governance is actually necessary. > > Sorry for being so anti-government, but I've had a lot of negative > experiences interacting with the bastards. I think anti-government, in this day and age, is a very healthy point of view. I'm very anti-government too, because for a big part of my life I was forced by threat of violence, to hand over about 65% of my income to the state and I feel this has robbed me of opportunities for developing myself and living the way I want do. Now I'm in a better position, but the ultimate goal of 0% still sits at the end of the rainbow. ;) Best regards, Daniel > > -Kelly > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From postmowoods at gmail.com Sat Mar 30 07:53:37 2024 From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2024 01:53:37 -0600 Subject: [ExI] libertarians nominate none of these In-Reply-To: <8c186852-9d82-ccae-18b6-bdbe33e7d32c@swisscows.email> References: <011201da7feb$654bf5d0$2fe3e170$@rainier66.com> <2E717063-909B-4382-8723-8EFFA6CAD06C@alumni.virginia.edu> <8c186852-9d82-ccae-18b6-bdbe33e7d32c@swisscows.email> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 29, 2024 at 5:30?AM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > > As a stoic, I don't see death as the worst thing in the world. As a > > transhumanist, I also want radical life extension. So there is an > > internal conflict there, to be sure. > > How do you deal with that conflict? Have you attempted any type of > reconciliation of your values? Well, if I die, I won't care. I don't believe in any sort of afterlife, so that's a non-issue for me. I currently feel sorrow for my future loved ones should this happen, so I try my best not to die and to do things that are likely to prolong my life. But if I die tomorrow, or in 1,000 years, death holds no sting for me. I don't mourn dead friends or family, they are simply gone. But I regret that I was not able to get my dead friends cryopreserved. I would love to be cryopreserved myself, yet I still rank my family's well being over spending money on cryopreservation. Should I get enough money that it won't hurt them for me to be cryopreserved, then I will do that. I also desire to donate organs, and to donate my body to science other than my brain and donated organs if any scientist will have such a body. I really don't know, but I'd hope they could use the leftovers. So is it really a conflict? Or simply a cost-benefit analysis where the cost of cryopreservation doesn't yet balance against not having a sink that drains properly yet? Maybe I'm just a transhumanist until I die, unless there is some cheat code I can afford. I don't feel conflicted about it much, to be honest. But maybe I haven't thought it through enough. > > I'm pretty much there for adults. How does this differ from today's > > situation in which an adult Jehovah's Witness can prevent their child > > from having a life giving blood transfusion? Just because it's dressed > > up as religion, it's still a pig. And I do support having different > > rules for minors. While I support legalizing prostitution for adults, > > I do not approve for minors because they are not at an age where they > > can give informed consent. Same with drugs. If you're a minor, there > > should be some limits. > > Children and childrens rights is one of the hardest problems for > libertarianism in my opinion, at least from a philosophical point of > view. I've dealt with the barrel end of the DCFS gun, so I have some pretty strong feelings that child services mostly hurt children and almost always hurt families. Their activities are not well known outside of those with direct experience because the privacy of the children keeps the press and the public out of their courts. While I'm in favor of keeping children safe in principle, in practice the government doesn't know how to do it anyways and therefore, probably best to let parents be parents. It's sad when religion allows parents to legally physically hurt children, but I feel that's a pretty small group of people compared to the hundreds of thousands that are hurt by the system. I was raised religious, and I don't feel it was irreparably harmful to me. It did take a lot of work to recover, to be sure, but that's the price for living in what little freedom we have left. > The standard answer I've seen is that children are the "property" of the > parents until they are old enough to move away or argue their rights. As > you can see, hardly a very satisfying answer. Not great. > Then you end up in the theoretical battle grounds of "what is parents > want to kill their child, if he's their property, they are entitled to > do that, ergo... libertarianism is wrong". Well, I'm sure you all know > the drill from there. I've never met any Libertarian that would argue that, other than for unborn children which is obviously a big can of worms. I've only ever heard the occasional Democrat argue for fourth trimester abortions, and I certainly don't agree with that formulation. > > I don't like the nanny state, at all. Period. If Darwinism isn't > > allowed to get some of us, imagine what the human race might look like > > in 1000 years? > > I like the movie idiocracy as a fun/scary exploration of this theme. I'll have to watch it. ... An hour and a half later... Yeah, that's about where I see things going. > > >> The Interstate Highway System was started because Eisenhower wanted > >> it so the defense department could mobilize and get places faster in > >> case of war/invasion. > >> > > > > Understood. But now it's to the point where we could choose to move > > past that, if we wanted to. In it's time the current form of the > > interstate highway system was justified for national defence which I > > see as one of the few areas where governance is actually necessary. > > > > Sorry for being so anti-government, but I've had a lot of negative > > experiences interacting with the bastards. > > I think anti-government, in this day and age, is a very healthy point of > view. I'm very anti-government too, because for a big part of my life I > was forced by threat of violence, to hand over about 65% of my income to > the state and I feel this has robbed me of opportunities for developing > myself and living the way I want do. Couldn't agree more. But as long as people keep voting in folks who will give them stuff... it's not going to get better. Idiocracy isn't just in the future... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax-2i71bqGw > Now I'm in a better position, but the ultimate goal of 0% still sits at > the end of the rainbow. ;) > Best regards, > Daniel 0% tax? I don't see how that will fly with our current populace.... -Kelly From pharos at gmail.com Sat Mar 30 11:48:50 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2024 11:48:50 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Nick Bostrom new book - Life and Meaning in an AI Utopia Message-ID: Nick Bostrom has a new book just published - Deep Utopia: Life and Meaning in a Solved World BillK < https://www.amazon.com/Deep-Utopia-Meaning-Solved-World/dp/1646871642/ref=sr_1_1?crid=389UB396211GX& > Quote: Suppose that we develop superintelligence safely, govern it well, and make good use of the cornucopian wealth and near magical technological powers that this technology can unlock. If this transition to the machine intelligence era goes well, human labor becomes obsolete. We would thus enter a condition of "post-instrumentality", in which our efforts are not needed for any practical purpose. Furthermore, at technological maturity, human nature becomes entirely malleable. Here we confront a challenge that is not technological but philosophical and spiritual. In such a solved world, what is the point of human existence? What gives meaning to life? What do we do all day? Deep Utopia shines new light on these old questions, and gives us glimpses of a different kind of existence, which might be ours in the future. ---------------------------------- AI Book Summary - *Deep Utopia: Life and Meaning in a Solved World* explores the implications of a hypothetical future where all of humanity's problems have been solved through advanced technology and artificial intelligence. The author, Marcus Geduld, delves into the potential consequences of such a world and how individuals might find purpose and fulfillment in a society where traditional challenges no longer exist. The key takeaways from *Deep Utopia* are: 1. *Shift in Values:* In a world where basic needs are effortlessly met by technology, individuals may need to redefine their values and goals. The book suggests that people may shift their focus towards personal growth, creativity, and exploration of the self. 2. *Meaning and Purpose:* With the eradication of poverty, disease, and other societal problems, individuals may struggle to find meaning and purpose in their lives. *Deep Utopia* explores how people might seek fulfillment through intellectual pursuits, relationships, and self-improvement. 3. *Emotional Challenges:* Despite the absence of external hardships, individuals may still grapple with emotional challenges such as loneliness, existential questions, and the need for connection. The book examines how emotional well-being could become a primary focus in a solved world. 4. *Exploration of Consciousness:* In a society where material concerns are no longer pressing, *Deep Utopia* suggests that individuals may turn towards exploring consciousness, spirituality, and the nature of reality. This shift could lead to profound philosophical and existential inquiries. 5. *Role of Technology:* The book emphasizes the role of technology in shaping the future utopian society. While technology has the power to solve many problems, it also raises ethical questions and challenges related to privacy, autonomy, and the potential for misuse. 6. *Community and Connection:* Despite the advancements in technology, *Deep Utopia* highlights the importance of human connection and community. The book suggests that fostering meaningful relationships and a sense of belonging will remain crucial for individual well-being. 7. *Adaptation and Evolution:* As society transitions into a solved world, individuals will need to adapt to new norms and ways of living. *Deep Utopia* explores the potential for human evolution, both biologically and culturally, in response to a radically transformed environment. 8. *Ethical Considerations:* The book raises important ethical considerations surrounding the use of technology and the implications of a world where scarcity is virtually eliminated. *Deep Utopia* prompts readers to reflect on the values and principles that should guide decision-making in such a society. Overall, *Deep Utopia: Life and Meaning in a Solved World* offers a thought-provoking exploration of a future where humanity's most pressing problems have been solved, inviting readers to contemplate the profound changes such a world would bring and the enduring quest for meaning and fulfillment in a utopian society. ------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From efc at swisscows.email Sat Mar 30 14:22:14 2024 From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2024 15:22:14 +0100 (CET) Subject: [ExI] libertarians nominate none of these In-Reply-To: References: <011201da7feb$654bf5d0$2fe3e170$@rainier66.com> <2E717063-909B-4382-8723-8EFFA6CAD06C@alumni.virginia.edu> <8c186852-9d82-ccae-18b6-bdbe33e7d32c@swisscows.email> Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Mar 2024, Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat wrote: > On Fri, Mar 29, 2024 at 5:30?AM efc--- via extropy-chat > wrote: >> > As a stoic, I don't see death as the worst thing in the world. As a >> > transhumanist, I also want radical life extension. So there is an >> > internal conflict there, to be sure. >> >> How do you deal with that conflict? Have you attempted any type of >> reconciliation of your values? > > Well, if I die, I won't care. I don't believe in any sort of > afterlife, so that's a non-issue for me. I currently feel sorrow for > my future loved ones should this happen, so I try my best not to die > and to do things that are likely to prolong my life. But if I die > tomorrow, or in 1,000 years, death holds no sting for me. I don't > mourn dead friends or family, they are simply gone. But I regret that > I was not able to get my dead friends cryopreserved. I would love to > be cryopreserved myself, yet I still rank my family's well being over > spending money on cryopreservation. Should I get enough money that it > won't hurt them for me to be cryopreserved, then I will do that. I > also desire to donate organs, and to donate my body to science other > than my brain and donated organs if any scientist will have such a > body. I really don't know, but I'd hope they could use the leftovers. > So is it really a conflict? Or simply a cost-benefit analysis where > the cost of cryopreservation doesn't yet balance against not having a > sink that drains properly yet? Maybe I'm just a transhumanist until I > die, unless there is some cheat code I can afford. I don't feel > conflicted about it much, to be honest. But maybe I haven't thought it > through enough. Thank you for sharing, makes a lot of sense. >> Children and childrens rights is one of the hardest problems for >> libertarianism in my opinion, at least from a philosophical point of >> view. > > I've dealt with the barrel end of the DCFS gun, so I have some pretty > strong feelings that child services mostly hurt children and almost > always hurt families. Their activities are not well known outside of > those with direct experience because the privacy of the children keeps > the press and the public out of their courts. While I'm in favor of > keeping children safe in principle, in practice the government doesn't > know how to do it anyways and therefore, probably best to let parents > be parents. It's sad when religion allows parents to legally > physically hurt children, but I feel that's a pretty small group of > people compared to the hundreds of thousands that are hurt by the That's an interesting point and something to keep in mind in any libertarian debate. Is it a niche case, then maybe it is worth it even though there is no perfect answer. > system. I was raised religious, and I don't feel it was irreparably > harmful to me. It did take a lot of work to recover, to be sure, but > that's the price for living in what little freedom we have left. >From my european point of view I think it is difficult to imagine living in a deeply american christian conservative community. I was brought up protestant on paper which meant going to church at most once a year and a little bit of jesus talk around christmas and easter. My mother was spiritual and sort of an anarchist christian in that she did her own thing and didn't really like all organized stuff, except when we lived abroad for a few years when she did become active for a bit in the local church, but more as a social thing and definitely not any services. I think my final point of departure from organized religion was when I started to work and saw that 0.4% of my income tax was a church tax, and that's when I left. ;) >> Then you end up in the theoretical battle grounds of "what is parents >> want to kill their child, if he's their property, they are entitled to >> do that, ergo... libertarianism is wrong". Well, I'm sure you all know >> the drill from there. > > I've never met any Libertarian that would argue that, other than for > unborn children which is obviously a big can of worms. I've only ever > heard the occasional Democrat argue for fourth trimester abortions, > and I certainly don't agree with that formulation. How would you argue for childrens rights, and when it would be right for external people to step in and take a child away from abuse parents? And I'm thinking from a philosophical/ethical point of view. From a common sense perspective, I imagine if things get bad enough common sense people would step in anyway. >> I think anti-government, in this day and age, is a very healthy point of >> view. I'm very anti-government too, because for a big part of my life I >> was forced by threat of violence, to hand over about 65% of my income to >> the state and I feel this has robbed me of opportunities for developing >> myself and living the way I want do. > > Couldn't agree more. But as long as people keep voting in folks who > will give them stuff... it's not going to get better. True. The mainstream systems are designed to promote and strengthen themselves. I wrote in another post about what would be needed to live more free on a personal and collective level. > > Idiocracy isn't just in the future... > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax-2i71bqGw Ouch, that was painful! I could not take more than 15 seconds! >> Now I'm in a better position, but the ultimate goal of 0% still sits at >> the end of the rainbow. ;) >> Best regards, >> Daniel > > 0% tax? I don't see how that will fly with our current populace.... No, at the moment it is only possible on an individual level with the help of some kind of legal structure and some good lawyers _or_ if you move to any of the following countries (in person, or on paper): Brunei, Saudi Arabia, Oman, Kuwait, Qatar, UAE, The Bahamas, Bahrain, Cayman Islands, Bermuda. Knowing my wife, when retirement comes, arabia is out of the question, but maybe I could make a case for the Bahamas, Cayman Islands or Bermuda! =) Best regards, Daniel > > -Kelly > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From pharos at gmail.com Sat Mar 30 15:12:11 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2024 15:12:11 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Nick Bostrom new book - Life and Meaning in an AI Utopia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Mar 2024 at 11:48, BillK wrote: > Nick Bostrom has a new book just published - > Deep Utopia: Life and Meaning in a Solved World > BillK > > > < > https://www.amazon.com/Deep-Utopia-Meaning-Solved-World/dp/1646871642/ref=sr_1_1?crid=389UB396211GX& > > > Quote: > > Suppose that we develop superintelligence safely, govern it well, and make > good use of the cornucopian wealth and near magical technological powers > that this technology can unlock. If this transition to the machine > intelligence era goes well, human labor becomes obsolete. We would thus > enter a condition of "post-instrumentality", in which our efforts are not > needed for any practical purpose. Furthermore, at technological maturity, > human nature becomes entirely malleable. > > Here we confront a challenge that is not technological but philosophical > and spiritual. In such a solved world, what is the point of human > existence? What gives meaning to life? What do we do all day? > > Deep Utopia shines new light on these old questions, and gives us > glimpses of a different kind of existence, which might be ours in the > future. > > ---------------------------------- > I've just noticed that the previous book summary mentions a different author name in the text. This may be because that website uses GPT-3 AI. GPT-3 is rather out-of-date now, and may have made up that wrong author name. Here is another book summary from a different AI. BillK *Overview of ?Deep Utopia: Life and Meaning in a Solved World?* ?Deep Utopia: Life and Meaning in a Solved World? is a thought-provoking book written by Nick Bostrom, a renowned philosopher and futurist known for his work on existential risk, transhumanism, and the implications of artificial intelligence. This book delves into the concept of a ?solved world,? where humanity has overcome major challenges such as disease, poverty, and even death through advanced technology and scientific progress. Bostrom explores the profound implications of living in such a world and raises important questions about the nature of existence, consciousness, ethics, and the pursuit of meaning in a post-scarcity society. *Key Themes and Concepts* One of the central themes of ?Deep Utopia? is the idea of utopia itself - a perfect society where all fundamental problems have been solved. Bostrom challenges readers to consider what life would be like in a world where scarcity no longer exists, where individuals have access to unlimited resources and opportunities for personal growth. He examines how such a society would redefine traditional notions of work, relationships, identity, and purpose. The concept of transhumanism also features prominently in the book. Bostrom discusses how advancements in technology could potentially enhance human capabilities to unprecedented levels, blurring the lines between biology and artificial intelligence. He explores the ethical dilemmas associated with augmenting human bodies and minds, as well as the risks and benefits of merging with machines to achieve immortality or superintelligence. *Ethical Considerations* Throughout ?Deep Utopia,? Bostrom grapples with complex ethical questions that arise in a world where traditional moral frameworks may no longer apply. He examines issues such as distributive justice in a post-scarcity economy, the rights of sentient AI beings, and the potential consequences of tampering with fundamental aspects of human nature. The book encourages readers to reflect on their own values and beliefs in light of these futuristic scenarios. *Implications for Society* By presenting a vision of a ?solved world,? Bostrom prompts readers to reconsider their assumptions about progress, happiness, and the human condition. He challenges us to think beyond our current limitations and imagine what kind of society we want to create for future generations. The book serves as a catalyst for discussions about the role of technology in shaping our collective destiny and underscores the importance of thoughtful reflection on the potential impacts of scientific innovation. *Conclusion* In conclusion, ?Deep Utopia: Life and Meaning in a Solved World? by Nick Bostrom offers a compelling exploration of utopian ideals, transhumanist possibilities, ethical quandaries, and societal implications in an age of rapid technological advancement. Through his insightful analysis and thought experiments, Bostrom invites readers to contemplate what it means to live in a world where fundamental problems have been solved and encourages us to critically examine our values and aspirations for the future. ------------------------ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 30 19:06:18 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2024 12:06:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] if then else Message-ID: <009d01da82d5$58d6d490$0a847db0$@rainier66.com> New candidate is running for POTUS, a math teacher named Literally Anybody Else. Hey I don't see why not. Else has my vote. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 40900 bytes Desc: not available URL: From postmowoods at gmail.com Sun Mar 31 11:13:38 2024 From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2024 05:13:38 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Space Mining Message-ID: So nearby they are reopening a gold mine using cyanide to bleach the miniscule amounts of gold out of the ore in open top but lined pits. As I think through whether this is a good or bad thing for our part of the country, I wonder when does the EXL community think asteroid mining might actually start to happen. Personally, I can't imagine it being more than 24 years out, the lifespan of this locally proposed mine. -Kelly From postmowoods at gmail.com Sun Mar 31 11:31:05 2024 From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2024 05:31:05 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Communications a Moore's Law Phenomenon? In-Reply-To: <051a9185-08f0-d12b-97b6-96cdec939653@swisscows.email> References: <051a9185-08f0-d12b-97b6-96cdec939653@swisscows.email> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 18, 2024 at 7:49?AM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > > Hello Kelly, > > On Mon, 18 Mar 2024, Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat wrote: > > > On Wed, Mar 13, 2024 at 12:11?PM efc--- via extropy-chat > > wrote: > >> On Wed, 13 Mar 2024, Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > And yet, talking to salespeople can be helpful to your endeavors, if > > they turn out to have something we actually need. An AI agent could > > Sadly those sales people are so few and far in between that I'll take > the loss of them. Granted, there are a few sales people who are > brilliant, but I am sure they will find other ways of interacting with > me. > > Most sales people I meet are just annoying. But yes, you are right, the > ones who are good are worth their weight in gold. I meet a lot of helpful sales people in my woodworking business. Perhaps it's simpler. But I hadn't until just recently run into Paul saws, which are simply amazing. Wish I had known about them earlier. Google doesn't solve every problem for someone seeking technology. It's been challenging for me, and sales people have helped a lot. > That would be the day! Imagine just telling your AI, I want this trip, > my wife wants to see these things, the maximum cost is this much, and > here's when we want to travel, and have a service that's good enough, to > give you peace of mind enough, to trust it and just get a finished trip > back. I guess I think more in terms of B2B than consumer level sales when I think of useful sales people. > > So back around 2003, I created a company called Habit 3 software > > (after the third Habit of Steven Covey's famous 7, namely, "Put first > > things first.") that intended to create an email client that sorted > > email in order of importance. I got it working fairly well using what > > passed for AI at the time... multiple heuristics... but eventually > > abandoned the project because gmail looked like it might go in that > > direction. It never did, and I regret abandoning the project now. > > Anyway, within that program, I also had a concept of "Roles" so that > > if you were in the "Role" of "scoutmaster", scout's emails would > > Interesting. Roles would be equivalent to what I have different email > accounts for. I could see where that could work. However, some emails might intersect multiple roles. > > bubble to the top, but if you were in the Role of "Dad" then your > > kid's emails would bubble to the top. The idea was to set a specific > > amount of time on each role each day, and address the most important > > things to that role first, and keep track of what kind of time was > > spent on each role, so that you could properly prioritize your time. > > Having an AI automatically answer low priority emails in such a system > > I no longer get 250-300 emails per day, so today I do glance through > mail manually when deciding which ones to work on and reply to first. > But nice concept though, not even having to do that. =) The idea was based on my watching people dealing with spam back in the day. They would spend the first few minutes with their email client deleting spam, and only then would they start reading the good stuff. I don't think spam is as much of an issue now. Not sure if AI has anything to do with that, or the reduction in the importance of email in an SMS kind of world. I get way more Spam on SMS than I do in email now. -Kelly From atymes at gmail.com Sun Mar 31 12:19:35 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2024 05:19:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Space Mining In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There are firms trying to make it happen today. Even I have developed a bit of relevant tech. The main barrier is, of course, the continued high cost of launching hardware to survey and then to mine. On Sun, Mar 31, 2024, 4:15?AM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > So nearby they are reopening a gold mine using cyanide to bleach the > miniscule amounts of gold out of the ore in open top but lined pits. > As I think through whether this is a good or bad thing for our part of > the country, I wonder when does the EXL community think asteroid > mining might actually start to happen. > > Personally, I can't imagine it being more than 24 years out, the > lifespan of this locally proposed mine. > > -Kelly > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun Mar 31 18:38:02 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2024 11:38:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Space Mining In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think I have mentioned this before https://htyp.org/Mining_Asteroids "This article provides a rough analysis of mining an asteroid for gold and other high-value elements (platinum group metals) for return to an Earth market. Given serious bootstrapping at an asteroid and the development of low-cost transport to GEO in the context of a power satellite or similar very large operations in space, it appears an asteroid-mining project could make money beyond the wildest dreams of avarice." 12 years ago. I should update it. Keith On Sun, Mar 31, 2024 at 5:21?AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > There are firms trying to make it happen today. Even I have developed a bit of relevant tech. The main barrier is, of course, the continued high cost of launching hardware to survey and then to mine. > > On Sun, Mar 31, 2024, 4:15?AM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> So nearby they are reopening a gold mine using cyanide to bleach the >> miniscule amounts of gold out of the ore in open top but lined pits. >> As I think through whether this is a good or bad thing for our part of >> the country, I wonder when does the EXL community think asteroid >> mining might actually start to happen. >> >> Personally, I can't imagine it being more than 24 years out, the >> lifespan of this locally proposed mine. >> >> -Kelly >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From atymes at gmail.com Sun Mar 31 20:39:31 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2024 13:39:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Space Mining In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I also note the subject line of this email. In addition to asteroid mining, there is the potential for lunar mining. I suspect that lunar mining mostly makes sense to support lunar manufacturing. (While there is the prospect of mining helium-3, that is of no great value until after, not before, helium-3 fusion is demonstrated and becomes ready, with the possible sole exception of the fuel source, for commercial deployment.) This begs the question of what to manufacture on the Moon that could be of significant value; the best answer I have found so far is solar panels for power satellites, and/or entire solar power satellites, to be built and launched into Earth orbit at much lower cost than building and launching from Earth's surface into orbit. On Sun, Mar 31, 2024 at 11:38?AM Keith Henson wrote: > I think I have mentioned this before https://htyp.org/Mining_Asteroids > > "This article provides a rough analysis of mining an asteroid for gold > and other high-value elements (platinum group metals) for return to an > Earth market. Given serious bootstrapping at an asteroid and the > development of low-cost transport to GEO in the context of a power > satellite or similar very large operations in space, it appears an > asteroid-mining project could make money beyond the wildest dreams of > avarice." > > 12 years ago. > > I should update it. > > Keith > > On Sun, Mar 31, 2024 at 5:21?AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > There are firms trying to make it happen today. Even I have developed a > bit of relevant tech. The main barrier is, of course, the continued high > cost of launching hardware to survey and then to mine. > > > > On Sun, Mar 31, 2024, 4:15?AM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> > >> So nearby they are reopening a gold mine using cyanide to bleach the > >> miniscule amounts of gold out of the ore in open top but lined pits. > >> As I think through whether this is a good or bad thing for our part of > >> the country, I wonder when does the EXL community think asteroid > >> mining might actually start to happen. > >> > >> Personally, I can't imagine it being more than 24 years out, the > >> lifespan of this locally proposed mine. > >> > >> -Kelly > >> _______________________________________________ > >> extropy-chat mailing list > >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tcporco at gmail.com Sun Mar 31 21:39:12 2024 From: tcporco at gmail.com (Travis Porco) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2024 14:39:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: after upload, what? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >From: Adrian Tymes >To: ExI chat list > >> I'm more looking for >> "good enough, right now". I'd like to see as much of the 'narrative >> self' preserved, in any format, using >> any substrate, with a hope of further growth or regrowth later. What >> are the limits on the "minimalist" side? >Minimalist with hope of regrowth back to the full self? Right now, that's >just cryonics. Nothing less expensive than that gives something that >future technology can theoretically build on (short of time travel to >observe and/or extract from you while you were still alive). I'd say regrowth back to _a_ full self. Cryonics is noteworthy but to me it seems like a higher-risk, higher-cost, higher-reward option. Of course as they say, undergoing cryopreservation is the second worst thing that can happen to anybody. The choice is not between staying in ones' human body and undergoing some sort of preservation, but rather between undergoing preservation and stepping into the black sack to vanish forever. If one takes the view that the person can somehow be separated from the body, and the view that there is no essential self (but only an ongoing, ever-changing process), then the question is where one draws the line. "Is it really you" is in my view not a useful question, since it has to do only with how to extrapolate our current verbal conventions into the terra incognita to come. >Minimalist without that hope? Let someone else tell your story. It's not >just free, but people will do that anyway. It's what a lot of people >settle for, when they speak of "immortality", but I say it doesn't deserve >that label. I'm with Woody Allen: I want to achieve immortality by not dying. Though here the death of the body is unavoidable for all of us for the forseeable future. >I >> suspect that the insect connectome work will lead someone in >> the right direction. >So do I. Probably the best hope for someone about to die today, is to get >frozen with the best preservation affordable on the budget available, in >the hopes that future technology extending from this research will >eventually make restoration from said frozen archive possible - and that >whoever maintains the archive will follow through on their ancestors' >promise to restore you once it becomes possible. I'm hoping that preservation of the narrative self through current AI models will be possible. It's not really mind uploading, and it shouldn't even be called reincarnation. The hard question is how to get help from others once one has become little more than an appliance. --tcp From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun Mar 31 23:16:06 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2024 16:16:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Space Mining In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 31, 2024 at 1:40?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > I also note the subject line of this email. In addition to asteroid mining, there is the potential for lunar mining. Lunar regolith is about 1% metal. This means you have to sort through 100 times as much material as you would with a metal asteroid. It's possible to make metals, glass, and other things out of regolith, but it is complex and takes a lot of energy and equipment. O'Neill proposed to use a mass driver to get unsorted regolith off the moon and process it in space where you have full-time sunlight for energy. The leftover material would be used as shielding. There is a vast trove of information on these subjects in the early Space Manufacturing Conference papers. > I suspect that lunar mining mostly makes sense to support lunar manufacturing. (While there is the prospect of mining helium-3, that is of no great value until after, not before, helium-3 fusion is demonstrated and becomes ready, with the possible sole exception of the fuel source, for commercial deployment.) This begs the question of what to manufacture on the Moon that could be of significant value; the best answer I have found so far is solar panels for power satellites, and/or entire solar power satellites, to be built and launched into Earth orbit at much lower cost than building and launching from Earth's surface into orbit. I am not very impressed with solar panels. You can make twice as much power per unit area using thermal cycles. This reduces the amount of reaction mass you have to expend for station keeping against light pressure. Making turbines on the moon should not be any more difficult than making solar panels. But it is not clear to me that we will ever do much with the moon. It is going to take 15 years or more and by that time who knows what the technological base will look like? Keith > On Sun, Mar 31, 2024 at 11:38?AM Keith Henson wrote: >> >> I think I have mentioned this before https://htyp.org/Mining_Asteroids >> >> "This article provides a rough analysis of mining an asteroid for gold >> and other high-value elements (platinum group metals) for return to an >> Earth market. Given serious bootstrapping at an asteroid and the >> development of low-cost transport to GEO in the context of a power >> satellite or similar very large operations in space, it appears an >> asteroid-mining project could make money beyond the wildest dreams of >> avarice." >> >> 12 years ago. >> >> I should update it. >> >> Keith >> >> On Sun, Mar 31, 2024 at 5:21?AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat >> wrote: >> > >> > There are firms trying to make it happen today. Even I have developed a bit of relevant tech. The main barrier is, of course, the continued high cost of launching hardware to survey and then to mine. >> > >> > On Sun, Mar 31, 2024, 4:15?AM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> >> >> So nearby they are reopening a gold mine using cyanide to bleach the >> >> miniscule amounts of gold out of the ore in open top but lined pits. >> >> As I think through whether this is a good or bad thing for our part of >> >> the country, I wonder when does the EXL community think asteroid >> >> mining might actually start to happen. >> >> >> >> Personally, I can't imagine it being more than 24 years out, the >> >> lifespan of this locally proposed mine. >> >> >> >> -Kelly >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> extropy-chat mailing list >> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > extropy-chat mailing list >> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From atymes at gmail.com Sun Mar 31 23:30:29 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2024 16:30:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Space Mining In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 31, 2024 at 4:16?PM Keith Henson wrote: > On Sun, Mar 31, 2024 at 1:40?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > I also note the subject line of this email. In addition to asteroid > mining, there is the potential for lunar mining. > > Lunar regolith is about 1% metal. https://sites.wustl.edu/meteoritesite/items/the-chemical-composition-of-lunar-soil/ says the combined aluminum and iron content is more like 20%. Other metals are scarce, though. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From postmowoods at gmail.com Sun Mar 31 23:36:57 2024 From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2024 17:36:57 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Fortified homes and bomb shelters In-Reply-To: <003f01da72ef$e62fe660$b28fb320$@rainier66.com> References: <003f01da72ef$e62fe660$b28fb320$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 7:36?AM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > Humanity will survive a singularity in my thinking. > It will reset everything, but humanity will be again > ready to radiate out of sub Saharan Africa and do it all again. > > spike While this initially seems logical, the second unfolding (if indeed it has not occurred before, something very difficult to completely discount) would be radically different in many aspects. While some things can be fairly easily repeated like the stone age, wood working and writing, perhaps leading to paper making... some technologies cannot be easily repeated. An important example of this is the fact that all easily accessible fossil fuels and easily mined copper and gold have been expended, so a second rise of technology would have to somehow create sustainable energy de-novo without the crutch of fossil fuels. It is hard to see how to do this without a surviving library from our period at the very least. Perhaps they could somehow skip to a new metal age using the scraps of our civilization, but it would be very difficult to solve the fuel issues for such a second technical or scientific radiation. -Kelly From pharos at gmail.com Sun Mar 31 23:38:32 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2024 00:38:32 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: after upload, what? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 31 Mar 2024 at 22:41, Travis Porco via extropy-chat wrote: > > > I'm hoping that preservation of the narrative self through current AI > models will be possible. It's not really mind uploading, and it shouldn't > even be called reincarnation. The hard question is how to get help from others > once one has become little more than an appliance. > > --tcp > _______________________________________________ Digital Immortality is now being discussed in the general public news channels in the UK. BillK Quote: The new tech bringing loved ones back to life through AI The virtual reality tool called "live forever mode" features digital avatars who can simulate a person's voice, mannerisms and movements after just 30 minutes of the user being observed. Arthi Nachiappan Saturday 30 March 2024 14:22, UK He wants his avatar to outlive him so his future relatives can experience it. He adds: "Instead of my kids having to hear stories of me and kind of make an idea of what they think I am in the past, they can actually talk to me and really know who I was, and that will give them a stronger sense of self." ------------------------------ From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun Mar 31 23:40:26 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2024 16:40:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Space Mining In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 31, 2024 at 4:31?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Sun, Mar 31, 2024 at 4:16?PM Keith Henson wrote: >> >> On Sun, Mar 31, 2024 at 1:40?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat >> wrote: >> > >> > I also note the subject line of this email. In addition to asteroid mining, there is the potential for lunar mining. >> >> Lunar regolith is about 1% metal. > Sorry, 1% meteor iron. > https://sites.wustl.edu/meteoritesite/items/the-chemical-composition-of-lunar-soil/ says the combined aluminum and iron content is more like 20%. Other metals are scarce, though. Right, but oxides are hard to make into metals without carbon. Keith _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat