From efc at disroot.org Fri Nov 1 08:46:18 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2024 09:46:18 +0100 (CET) Subject: [ExI] Birthrate falling worldwide - not just in the developed nations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <909b4e51-66f8-113b-ccd3-b2aaec23f6a3@disroot.org> On Fri, 1 Nov 2024, david via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> As Adrian says, evolution is probably too slow to have a significant >> effect. >> While economies will have problems with not enough young workers to >> support an ageing population, there is also the problem that the >> military will not have enough younger people to fight extended land >> wars. >> The robots will have to fight our wars as well as run our factories. >> The aged humans will help to look after the few grandchildren around. >> >> BillK >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > There are two aspects to evolution (well. there's more, but two we are > concerned about here) > 1/ The slow accumulation of mutations > 2/ Selection within existing range > > (1) as you say, is far too slow to have any effect on the birth rate before > humans would go extinct. > (2) however, can be as fast as a single generation. > > Consider an insect population where a gene confers a pesticide resistance. If > even 1% of the population has that gene, widespread use of the pesticide > would see 100% of the population have it within very few generations. > > It is the same for humans, if not as extreme. Children will be born to those > who continue to have multiple children despite affluence or lifestyle. There > may be a temporary drop in population while those who choose not to (or > can't) have children remove themselves from the gene pool, but the harsh laws > of evolution say they will be replaced by those who can and will. > > -David. Very interesting. Thank you for explaining David, maybe my initial intuition wasn't completely wrong after all? In terms of 1, I saw in the newspaper the other week about an experiment performed by Kerstin Johannesson, professor in marine ecology at the university of gothenburg. After algae had killed off a certain species of winkle (1) on a small, remote rock, the moved the population of another species (2) a few hundred meters to that rock. She thought the new population would die out, due to it not being adapted to that specific rock. In their original habitat, they (2) had evolved to survive attacks from crabs, but the winkles in the new habitat (1), which she replaced, had evolved to survive big waves. 1 were small and "risk taking" 2 were bigger. After the move, the female winkle gave birth to "children" about half a mm in size. The adults all died off. Among the new generation, a few survived due to dormant genes. After 30 generations, the new species (2) looked exactly like the original species (1). In the US similar experiments has been done on fish, and the scientists was very surprised at the lightning speed of evolution in this case. From efc at disroot.org Fri Nov 1 08:50:11 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2024 09:50:11 +0100 (CET) Subject: [ExI] Birthrate falling worldwide - not just in the developed nations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Oct 2024, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > On Thu, 31 Oct 2024 at 21:29, david via extropy-chat > wrote: >> >> There are two aspects to evolution (well. there's more, but two we are >> concerned about here) >> 1/ The slow accumulation of mutations >> 2/ Selection within existing range >> >> (1) as you say, is far too slow to have any effect on the birth rate >> before humans would go extinct. >> (2) however, can be as fast as a single generation. >> >> Consider an insect population where a gene confers a pesticide >> resistance. If even 1% of the population has that gene, widespread use >> of the pesticide would see 100% of the population have it within very >> few generations. >> >> It is the same for humans, if not as extreme. Children will be born to >> those who continue to have multiple children despite affluence or >> lifestyle. There may be a temporary drop in population while those who >> choose not to (or can't) have children remove themselves from the gene >> pool, but the harsh laws of evolution say they will be replaced by those >> who can and will. >> >> -David. >> _______________________________________________ > > > The population trends expect the fall in birth rates to continue, at > least up to about 2100. > There will be some groups, as you say, that might continue to have > many children, but they will not be enough to counter the general > world population decline. Humans are not insects. People are choosing > not to have more than 1 child. The children from large families will > be growing up in a very different world with an ageing population and > they are likely to decide for themselves to have few children. > > BillK I'm not at all sure we can say they would be likely to decide to have fewer children. After all... God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, ?Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. . ;) Jokes aside, yes, there will be a dip for sure, but nothing science and technology cannot handle. The cultures that value children and big families will then slowly start to grow and the cultures and communities that do not value children, will slowly start to disappear. From atymes at gmail.com Fri Nov 1 13:16:43 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2024 09:16:43 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Birthrate falling worldwide - not just in the developed nations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 1, 2024 at 4:51?AM efc--- via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The cultures that value children and big > families will then slowly start to grow and the cultures and communities > that do not value children, will slowly start to disappear. > That would have happened long ago if it truly was that dominant. In each generation, there are pulls and incentives for some individuals to not have children. These keep happening, even in modern times, though the natures and magnitudes may differ. I see no justifiable reason to believe these will go away in the foreseeable future. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Nov 1 20:36:42 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2024 20:36:42 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Will Advanced Civilizations Ever Build Dyson Spheres? Message-ID: Will Advanced Civilizations Build Habitable Planets or Dyson Spheres Posted on November 1, 2024 by Brian Koberlein Quote: When you think about it, building a Dyson sphere is the cosmic endgame of a capitalist dystopia. In the never-ending quest to capture and consume every last bit of energy, your civilization rips worlds asunder, moving heaven and earth to create an orbitally unstable, unlivable engine. If you can traverse light-years and transform planets, why not just move Earth-like planets and moons into a star?s habitable zone and have a nice cluster of comfy planets to live on? If this kind of stellar-punk civilization is out there, could astronomers detect it? This is the question behind a study on the arXiv. The authors begin by noting that when Freeman Dyson proposed the idea in 1960, our solar system was the only known planetary system. Star systems were thought to be rare at the time, but now we know better. Most stars have planets, and even our solar system has a dozen water-rich moons that could be made habitable with a shift of their orbits and a bit of terraforming. Since this would be much easier than building a Dyson sphere, the authors argue that modified systems should be much more common. The only question is how to detect them. --------------------- Reference: Narasimha, Raghav, Margarita Safonova, and C. Sivaram. ?Making Habitable Worlds: Planets Versus Megastructures.? arXiv preprint arXiv:2309.06562 (2023). ---------------------------- BillK From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Nov 1 21:06:24 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2024 14:06:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Reaction Engines in the US shuts down. Message-ID: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7257965694510653440/ For a long time, Skylon was the only candidate for getting the lift cost down to where power satellites would make economic sense. The US splinter of Reaction Engines was so they could test the precooler at full scale. Worked fine cooling the exhaust of a J 79 engine on afterburner. That is about the same as ram air at Mach 5. Sigh. Keith From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Nov 1 21:12:42 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2024 14:12:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Birthrate falling worldwide - not just in the developed nations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We are less than a generation from passing through the technological singularity. No time left for conventional evolution. Keith On Fri, Nov 1, 2024 at 6:18?AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Fri, Nov 1, 2024 at 4:51?AM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> The cultures that value children and big >> families will then slowly start to grow and the cultures and communities >> that do not value children, will slowly start to disappear. > > > That would have happened long ago if it truly was that dominant. > > In each generation, there are pulls and incentives for some individuals to not have children. These keep happening, even in modern times, though the natures and magnitudes may differ. I see no justifiable reason to believe these will go away in the foreseeable future. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Nov 1 23:36:23 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2024 16:36:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Reaction Engines in the US shuts down. In-Reply-To: References: <672544e4.050a0220.106c3a.310d@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 1, 2024 at 3:29?PM a.p.kothari astrox.com wrote: > > Exactly. > > I have been saying for a long time that Skylon system level analysis was incorrect, even if the RE had worked till Mach 5.2. > > Keith didn?t believe me. Please remind me where that was. I am not averse to going through highly technical data in great detail. I did that with the Skylon performance models. Skylon just barely gets payload to orbit. One of the reasons is the low mass of the engines. " Turbo-Ram can do all RE promised to do, even if they worked. Many more issues with RE than with Ramjets which have been proven already. No need to go that way and do Skylon. > For the same performance are these turbo-ram engines more or less massive than the SABRE ? Keith > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > Dr. Ajay P. Kothari > > President > > Astrox Corporation > > AIAA Associate Fellow > > Member, AIAA Aerospace Power TC > > > > Ph: 301-935-5868 > > Web: www.astrox.com > > Email: a.p.kothari at astrox.com > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > From: power-satellite-economics at googlegroups.com On Behalf Of willdcomstock > Sent: Friday, November 01, 2024 5:15 PM > To: Keith Henson ; Power Satellite Economics ; ExI chat list ; extropolis at googlegroups.com > Subject: RE: Reaction Engines in the US shuts down. > > > > Keith, > > > > Starship, New Glenn, and Stoke Space will do just as well if not better than Skylon. As sad as it is to see, the future is still very bright! > > > > Donald Comstock > > > > -------- Original message -------- > > From: Keith Henson > > Date: 11/1/24 5:06 PM (GMT-05:00) > > To: Power Satellite Economics , ExI chat list , extropolis at googlegroups.com > > Subject: Reaction Engines in the US shuts down. > > > > https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7257965694510653440/ > > For a long time, Skylon was the only candidate for getting the lift > cost down to where power satellites would make economic sense. > > The US splinter of Reaction Engines was so they could test the > precooler at full scale. Worked fine cooling the exhaust of a J 79 > engine on afterburner. That is about the same as ram air at Mach 5. > > Sigh. > > Keith > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Power Satellite Economics" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to power-satellite-economics+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/power-satellite-economics/CAPiwVB65WQZfHk2PLGfjKB6Wd21MEhe7S%2BnZ43BWD6TQX5gRRQ%40mail.gmail.com. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Power Satellite Economics" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to power-satellite-economics+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/power-satellite-economics/672544e4.050a0220.106c3a.310d%40mx.google.com. From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Nov 1 23:37:25 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2024 16:37:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Reaction Engines in the US shuts down. In-Reply-To: <672544e4.050a0220.106c3a.310d@mx.google.com> References: <672544e4.050a0220.106c3a.310d@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 1, 2024 at 2:15?PM willdcomstock wrote: > > Keith, > > Starship, New Glenn, and Stoke Space will do just as well if not better than Skylon. As sad as it is to see, the future is still very bright! Maybe. A NOAA study showed that Skylon could support a power satellite project without too much damage to the ozone. The same study has not been done for methane burners. But things are moving so fast that it is not clear that power satellites will be needed. Or that people will move into space in substantial numbers. (Though they might do it as uploads.) Keith > Donald Comstock > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Keith Henson > Date: 11/1/24 5:06 PM (GMT-05:00) > To: Power Satellite Economics , ExI chat list , extropolis at googlegroups.com > Subject: Reaction Engines in the US shuts down. > > https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7257965694510653440/ > > For a long time, Skylon was the only candidate for getting the lift > cost down to where power satellites would make economic sense. > > The US splinter of Reaction Engines was so they could test the > precooler at full scale. Worked fine cooling the exhaust of a J 79 > engine on afterburner. That is about the same as ram air at Mach 5. > > Sigh. > > Keith > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Power Satellite Economics" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to power-satellite-economics+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/power-satellite-economics/CAPiwVB65WQZfHk2PLGfjKB6Wd21MEhe7S%2BnZ43BWD6TQX5gRRQ%40mail.gmail.com. From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Nov 2 01:42:42 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2024 18:42:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Reaction Engines in the US shuts down. In-Reply-To: <06d001db2cc1$9ce44f00$d6aced00$@sbcglobal.net> References: <672544e4.050a0220.106c3a.310d@mx.google.com> <06d001db2cc1$9ce44f00$d6aced00$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 1, 2024 at 5:53?PM John K. Strickland, Jr. wrote: > > "Moving so Fast" - do you mean Fusion? No, AI moving fast and nanotech in the wings. > We will still need fusion for propulsion if not for energy. > Think of the mass in Space that would need to be processed to support a million people ! As uploads, probably less than a kg/person for the computation nodes and a few times that for the power and heat sinks. The hypothetical inhabitants of Tabby's Star and 24 other dipping stars might live that way. Keith > John S > > -----Original Message----- > From: power-satellite-economics at googlegroups.com On Behalf Of Keith Henson > Sent: Friday, November 01, 2024 6:37 PM > To: willdcomstock > Cc: Power Satellite Economics ; ExI chat list ; extropolis at googlegroups.com > Subject: Re: Reaction Engines in the US shuts down. > > On Fri, Nov 1, 2024 at 2:15?PM willdcomstock wrote: > > > > Keith, > > > > Starship, New Glenn, and Stoke Space will do just as well if not better than Skylon. As sad as it is to see, the future is still very bright! > > Maybe. A NOAA study showed that Skylon could support a power satellite project without too much damage to the ozone. The same study has not been done for methane burners. > > But things are moving so fast that it is not clear that power satellites will be needed. Or that people will move into space in substantial numbers. (Though they might do it as uploads.) > > > Keith > > > Donald Comstock > > > > -------- Original message -------- > > From: Keith Henson > > Date: 11/1/24 5:06 PM (GMT-05:00) > > To: Power Satellite Economics > > , ExI chat list > > , extropolis at googlegroups.com > > Subject: Reaction Engines in the US shuts down. > > > > https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:72579656945106534 > > 40/ > > > > For a long time, Skylon was the only candidate for getting the lift > > cost down to where power satellites would make economic sense. > > > > The US splinter of Reaction Engines was so they could test the > > precooler at full scale. Worked fine cooling the exhaust of a J 79 > > engine on afterburner. That is about the same as ram air at Mach 5. > > > > Sigh. > > > > Keith > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Power Satellite Economics" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to power-satellite-economics+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > > To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/power-satellite-economics/CAPiwVB65WQZfHk2PLGfjKB6Wd21MEhe7S%2BnZ43BWD6TQX5gRRQ%40mail.gmail.com. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Power Satellite Economics" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to power-satellite-economics+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/power-satellite-economics/CAPiwVB5cdZubX%2B52F7UHJmGjNKrraECbzeiRxMbLf%3DUdfDFATQ%40mail.gmail.com. > From bronto at pobox.com Sat Nov 2 07:22:06 2024 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2024 00:22:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Will Advanced Civilizations Ever Build Dyson Spheres? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2024-11-01 13:36, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > Will Advanced Civilizations Build Habitable Planets or Dyson Spheres > Posted on November 1, 2024 by Brian Koberlein > > > Quote: > When you think about it, building a Dyson sphere is the cosmic endgame > of a capitalist dystopia. Because capitalism invented demand for energy? > In the never-ending quest to capture and > consume every last bit of energy, your civilization rips worlds > asunder, moving heaven and earth to create an orbitally unstable, > unlivable engine. Does this article assume a solid sphere? That of course was not Dyson's idea. > If you can traverse light-years and transform planets, that's a big if > why not just move Earth-like planets and moons into a star?s > habitable zone and have a nice cluster of comfy planets to live on? > [...] even our solar system has a dozen > water-rich moons that could be made habitable with a shift of their > orbits and a bit of terraforming. Since this would be much easier than > building a Dyson sphere, [...] A Dyson sphere doesn't happen all at once, it is the limit of incrementally capturing more starlight. Moving a big ice moon away from its primary would be less incremental and more risky. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From pharos at gmail.com Sat Nov 2 14:21:01 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2024 14:21:01 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Will Advanced Civilizations Ever Build Dyson Spheres? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 2 Nov 2024 at 07:24, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat wrote: > > Does this article assume a solid sphere? > That of course was not Dyson's idea. > > A Dyson sphere doesn't happen all at once, it is the limit of > incrementally capturing more starlight. Moving a big ice moon away from > its primary would be less incremental and more risky. > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org ________________________________________ Building Dyson structures around a star will require a huge amount of material. (Stars are very big!). And it has to be metal-rich material. Dismantling asteroids and even planets would be necessary just to get a thin partial shell around a star. This would also have risky orbital effects. I think that's why they suggest pushing planets and large asteroids into the habitable zone and doing terraforming might be easier. (though still an enormous task). BillK From pharos at gmail.com Sat Nov 2 15:03:08 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2024 15:03:08 +0000 Subject: [ExI] AI is now designing chips for AI Message-ID: AI is now designing chips for AI AI software is rapidly accelerating chip design, potentially leveling up the speed of innovation across the economy. By Kristin Houser November 2, 2024 Quotes: Just like AlphaZero, an AI trained to design chips can run through options far faster than an engineer can. As a result, engineers are now able to rapidly design chips that aren?t just ?good enough,? but great. ?AI is already performing parts of the design process better than humans,? Bill Dally, chief scientist and senior VP of research at Nvidia. ?We would love to see a future where AI could help automate and optimize the entire chip design process for many kinds of chips,? said Mirhoseini and Goldie. ?Imagine whenever someone wants to design a new chip, they could simply describe an application to a future version of AlphaChip, which then outputs a fully specified chip design that is ready for manufacturing.? ----------- Hmmmm. So we don't understand how LLM AIs do their thinking, but we'll let them design chips that we also won't understand how they work either. What could possibly go wrong? BillK From atymes at gmail.com Sat Nov 2 15:13:11 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2024 11:13:11 -0400 Subject: [ExI] AI is now designing chips for AI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Notice that the exponentiation to infinite returns is far from immediate. Eventually, if allowed to run long enough, exponentiation can result in a singularity. But it also must be recognized how far from that the starting point is. On Sat, Nov 2, 2024 at 11:05?AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > AI is now designing chips for AI > > AI software is rapidly accelerating chip design, potentially leveling > up the speed of innovation across the economy. > By Kristin Houser November 2, 2024 > > < > https://www.freethink.com/artificial-intelligence/ai-designing-chips-for-ai > > > Quotes: > Just like AlphaZero, an AI trained to design chips can run through > options far faster than an engineer can. As a result, engineers are > now able to rapidly design chips that aren?t just ?good enough,? but > great. > > ?AI is already performing parts of the design process better than > humans,? Bill Dally, chief scientist and senior VP of research at > Nvidia. > > ?We would love to see a future where AI could help automate and > optimize the entire chip design process for many kinds of chips,? said > Mirhoseini and Goldie. ?Imagine whenever someone wants to design a new > chip, they could simply describe an application to a future version of > AlphaChip, which then outputs a fully specified chip design that is > ready for manufacturing.? > ----------- > > Hmmmm. So we don't understand how LLM AIs do their thinking, but > we'll let them design chips that we also won't understand how they > work either. > What could possibly go wrong? > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Nov 2 19:18:47 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2024 12:18:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Reaction Engines in the US shuts down. In-Reply-To: <1718622080.732870.1730573989754@www.getmymail.co.uk> References: <672544e4.050a0220.106c3a.310d@mx.google.com> <06d001db2cc1$9ce44f00$d6aced00$@sbcglobal.net> <009e01db2d37$96d711d0$c4853570$@aol.com> <1894861876.731867.1730564065692@www.getmymail.co.uk> <012901db2d54$c60dfd70$5229f850$@aol.com> <1718622080.732870.1730573989754@www.getmymail.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 2, 2024 at 11:59?AM Ian Cash wrote: > > A solution for frost control in humid environments was amongst the earliest demonstrations from the REL team. I believe this was never patented, in-order to remain secret. I know how it worked. Not sure who explained it to me. Involved recirculating methyl alcohol. I suggested another method of coating the heat exchanger with a hydrophobic layer so the ice would not stick. Something must have worked since the testing in Colorado was successful which it would not have been if the engine choked with ice. Keith > The SABRE engine uses a closed helium cooling loop, itself forming the working fluid for an efficient heat engine powering engine subsystems. The danger of a hydrogen-air mixing event is thus well-mitigated. Having the inlet airflow turn through a sharp 90 degrees also prevents the majority of foreign object damage, which continues to follow a near-straight path through bypass ducting. > > This from 2015: https://www.ijirset.com/upload/2015/october/107_SABRE.pdf > > "3. HELIUM LOOP: > The hot HE from the precooler is reprocessed by cooling it in a heat exchanger with the LH2, heat absorbed by HE > from incoming air is utilised to power various parts of engine developing a self-starting Brayton cycle based engine [9]. " > > Ian > > On 02/11/2024 18:26 GMT jamesmsnead at aol.com wrote: > > > > Thank you, Ian, for the correction. > > > > However, there do not appear to be any substantial difference in their approach from a LACE SSTO from a design closure point of view. > > > > In developing the tailored ACES concept for the alternate NASP design, we addressed the condensation issue. In our approach, the nearly pure separated nitrogen was used as an intermediate coolant to control the condensation issue, if the humidity actually became an issue, and to prevent needing to use a hydrogen-air heat exchanger where a tube failure could cause a potential fire or explosion. We did not have coolant loops in the inlet to prevent FOD to the heat exchangers. > > > > The intent was that the system would operate from air bases where the ground humidity was typically very low, such as Area 51. ?? > > > > I recently saw a YouTube video about a new hybrid electric jet engine concept that connected the turbine and the compressor via a generator-motor instead of a direct mechanical connection. For an ACES system, this may have interesting advantages in terms of being able to better control the bypass of air into the ACES system as a function of the flight conditions. > > > > Also, the TSTO Boeing concept could see a future upgrade incorporating an ACES system in the carrier aircraft. This combined with new generation turboramjets enabling afterburning flight to Mach 3-4 would enable the system TOGW to drop significantly while reducing the ground refueling complexity. > > > > Central to all of these discussions is the clear lack of effective functioning of the National Space Council. Proper space policy is highly dependent on thorough technical and operational analysis of current and in-development technologies. I do not see anyone doing this at this time. The ASD group at WPAFB was among the best. That effort has since gone away as the air side of the Air Force was ?dismissed? from pursuing military spaceplanes. > > > > Mike Snead, PE > > > > > > > > From: Ian Cash > Sent: Saturday, November 2, 2024 12:14 PM > To: jamesmsnead at aol.com; jamesmsnead via Power Satellite Economics ; Keith Henson ; John K. Strickland, Jr. > Cc: willdcomstock ; ExI chat list ; extropolis at googlegroups.com > Subject: RE: Reaction Engines in the US shuts down. > > > > Mike, > > > > A more careful reading of the Wikipedia article could have saved you a lengthy reply on the shortcomings of LACE engines: > > The low temperature of the air permits light alloy construction to be employed and allow a very lightweight engine?essential for reaching orbit. In addition, unlike the LACE concept, SABRE's precooler does not liquefy the air, letting it run more efficiently.[2] > > Regards > > > > Ian > > > > On 02/11/2024 14:57 GMT jamesmsnead via Power Satellite Economics wrote: > > > > > > ... > > > > Our analysis showed that a pure LACE SSTO did not yield design closure. So in the later 1980s, our analysis then showed that the Reaction Engines approach would probably not work. > > > > ... > > > ________________________________ > This email has been scanned by iomartcloud. > http://www.iomartcloud.com > ________________________________ From ben at zaiboc.net Sat Nov 2 20:17:28 2024 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2024 20:17:28 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Will Advanced Civilizations Ever Build Dyson Spheres? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7d8c7904-1a83-4b64-9bc7-cb608938b5f6@zaiboc.net> On 01/11/2024 23:38, BillK wrote: > Most stars have planets, and even our solar system has a dozen > water-rich moons that could be made habitable with a shift of their > orbits and a bit of terraforming. Since this would be much easier than > building a Dyson sphere, the authors argue that modified systems > should be much more common. The only question is how to detect them. This is only valid if you assume biological beings. Personally, I don't think that any advanced civilisation would consist of biological beings, at least not primarily. I would expect moving beyond biology would come before moving into space, and that would shape the kind of space habitats you'd want to create. Data processing nodes are the thing to look for, not biological ecosystems, imo. (and yes, they will be a lot harder to spot. Another explanation for the Fermi Paradox?) -- Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sat Nov 2 20:19:13 2024 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2024 20:19:13 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Privacy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2e53a80d-e1dc-4ee7-8a36-25636d85ec6a@zaiboc.net> On 01/11/2024 23:38, Daniel wrote: > camera surveillance, tracking an controlling (or "nudging" as it is > called in modern english if I remember correctly) people is definitely > getting popular among the political class, so I fear you are right as > long as we don't experience anything similar to the persecution of the > jews, with the disaster that followed. If such a disaster should > happen again maybe that might be enough to make some people think > about unlimited surveillance and what it can be used for if it ends up > in the wrong hands. "wrong hands" Ha, that makes me laugh. What exactly are the 'wrong hands'? And how does that differ from the hands that such information is already in? I think we can safely assume that our data is already in the wrong hands, and has been from the start. Think of it this way: What are the 'right hands'? iow: who do you think holds your own interests above theirs? Hint: the answer is "nobody". As soon as you divulge any information about yourself (including going out and being recorded on surveillance cameras, not to mention staying inside your own house and being recorded via various 'smart' systems, or even just having your internet activity captured), you can be sure that it immediately falls into the 'wrong hands'. We aready live in the panopticon. Some of us realise it, most of us don't. -- Ben From efc at disroot.org Sat Nov 2 22:09:45 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2024 23:09:45 +0100 (CET) Subject: [ExI] Privacy In-Reply-To: <2e53a80d-e1dc-4ee7-8a36-25636d85ec6a@zaiboc.net> References: <2e53a80d-e1dc-4ee7-8a36-25636d85ec6a@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <75837c32-7888-e36d-6098-6dc50104e5f2@disroot.org> On Sat, 2 Nov 2024, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > On 01/11/2024 23:38, Daniel wrote: >> camera surveillance, tracking an controlling (or "nudging" as it is called >> in modern english if I remember correctly) people is definitely getting >> popular among the political class, so I fear you are right as long as we >> don't experience anything similar to the persecution of the jews, with the >> disaster that followed. If such a disaster should happen again maybe that >> might be enough to make some people think about unlimited surveillance and >> what it can be used for if it ends up in the wrong hands. > > "wrong hands" Ha, that makes me laugh. > > What exactly are the 'wrong hands'? And how does that differ from the hands > that such information is already in? The hands I have not authorised. > I think we can safely assume that our data is already in the wrong hands, and > has been from the start. Maybe. But that does not imply that we should not try to make things better. =) > Think of it this way: What are the 'right hands'? iow: who do you think holds > your own interests above theirs? > Hint: the answer is "nobody". If I'm sick, my doctor, if I want to improve my diet, my dietist, when it's my birthday, my family. > As soon as you divulge any information about yourself (including going out > and being recorded on surveillance cameras, not to mention staying inside > your own house and being recorded via various 'smart' systems, or even just > having your internet activity captured), you can be sure that it immediately > falls into the 'wrong hands'. Well, luckily for me I live in a city where there are no ubiquitous surveillance cameras! And I also do not have any smart systems in my house. I also have a server in my house, so even though you are right that my ISP can track the activity, there are several members of the household and multiple devices, so fortunately they do not have a very clear pictures. Some communication is also encrypted, so although they do have the metadata, a lot of the actual traffic they do not have. > We aready live in the panopticon. Some of us realise it, most of us don't. I think it is not so black and white as you make it out to be, and I am also very optimistic about the long term future. GDPR already exists, and although hamfisted and ineffective in many cases shows that there is a desire among the public in the EU to do something about it. From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Nov 2 22:25:38 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2024 15:25:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Will Advanced Civilizations Ever Build Dyson Spheres? In-Reply-To: <7d8c7904-1a83-4b64-9bc7-cb608938b5f6@zaiboc.net> References: <7d8c7904-1a83-4b64-9bc7-cb608938b5f6@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 2, 2024 at 1:18?PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > > On 01/11/2024 23:38, BillK wrote: > > Most stars have planets, and even our solar system has a dozen > water-rich moons that could be made habitable with a shift of their > orbits and a bit of terraforming. Since this would be much easier than > building a Dyson sphere, the authors argue that modified systems > should be much more common. The only question is how to detect them. > > This is only valid if you assume biological beings. I think it is safe to assume they started as biologicals. > Personally, I don't think that any advanced civilisation would consist of biological beings, at least not primarily. I would expect moving beyond biology would come before moving into space, and that would shape the kind of space habitats you'd want to create. > Data processing nodes are the thing to look for, not biological ecosystems, imo. (and yes, they will be a lot harder to spot. Another explanation for the Fermi Paradox?) The biggest light dip for Tabby's star works out to be over 400 times the area of the Earth and more than 12 AU out from the star. I posted the analysis here Aug 6 2023. The power and heat sink budget has room for trillions of uploaded aliens. It is in orbit, and the sectional density is not high, so why not extend it right around the star? I suspect that speed-of-light communication problems make larger structures undesirable. > -- > Ben > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From spike at rainier66.com Tue Nov 5 15:50:31 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2024 07:50:31 -0800 Subject: [ExI] ai designing chips Message-ID: <006201db2f9a$724eaf70$56ec0e50$@rainier66.com> >.Hmmmm. So we don't understand how LLM AIs do their thinking, but we'll let them design chips that we also won't understand how they work either. What could possibly go wrong? BillK I, for one, welcome our new AI overlords. Oy vey, sheesh, we have seen this coming for over three decades and we STILL don't know what to do. Friends, I have been MII for a few weeks, missing in inaction. But I have not gone away and will be back soon. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Nov 6 23:18:09 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2024 15:18:09 -0800 Subject: [ExI] twitter x Message-ID: Does anyone know how to downgrade an x account? Keith From bronto at pobox.com Thu Nov 7 02:31:50 2024 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2024 18:31:50 -0800 Subject: [ExI] twitter x In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <340ac4a6-2fc6-4027-bc29-7c85dfd01256@pobox.com> On 2024-11-06 15:18, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > Does anyone know how to downgrade an x account? Post a lot of junk? Block your followers? ;P -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From pharos at gmail.com Fri Nov 8 13:15:59 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2024 13:15:59 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Sudden rise in enquiries for robot sex dolls Message-ID: After Trump's Victory, the 4B Movement Is Spreading Across TikTok The 4B movement, from South Korea, calls for women to not date, marry, sleep with, or have children with men. Women are calling for the movement to take off in the US after Donald Trump won the election. Vittoria Elliott Angela Watercutter Nov 7, 2024 Quote: Talk of adapting the 4B movement to American politics isn?t just taking off on TikTok. Since Tuesday, there has also been chatter on X, Threads, and r/Feminism. Google search interest in the movement shot up in the hours after it became clear Trump would win the US presidency, an election in which Trump saw big gains in his appeal to young male voters. ------------------ Great encouragement for robot developers! :) BillK From spike at rainier66.com Fri Nov 8 14:04:38 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2024 06:04:38 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Sudden rise in enquiries for robot sex dolls In-Reply-To: <002701db31e4$88eb5430$9ac1fc90$@rainier66.com> References: <002701db31e4$88eb5430$9ac1fc90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004601db31e7$27227e60$75677b20$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Sent: Friday, 8 November, 2024 5:46 AM To: spike at rainier66.com Subject: Quote: >>. an election in which Trump saw big gains in his appeal to young male voters. ------------------ >.Great encouragement for robot developers! :) BillK BillK I have been watching how the robots are coming along. It sure seems like we have everything we need for crop-harvesting robots but I still don't see that they are being used. I don't know where we are on sexbots, but I completely understand why the demand and sudden interest in them. My son reports that the POTUS-elect is very popular at Berzerkeley, particularly among the male students. I have been thru twelve election cycles while at an age that I remember their sales pitches. Never in my wildest did I think we would ever see a campaign as testosterone-soaked as this one. It worked. I just cannot imagine even as recently as four years ago a candidate running an ad like this: https://twitter.com/i/status/1845343182458061298 The times, they are achangin. I can scarcely achange fast enough for our times. This is a most remarkable comment, acomin from ME of all people, the one my own family thinks of as the wacky Mister Frozen Head guy. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Nov 8 18:26:43 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2024 10:26:43 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Sudden rise in enquiries for robot sex dolls In-Reply-To: <004601db31e7$27227e60$75677b20$@rainier66.com> References: <002701db31e4$88eb5430$9ac1fc90$@rainier66.com> <004601db31e7$27227e60$75677b20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 8, 2024 at 6:05?AM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: snip > the one my own family thinks of as the wacky Mister Frozen Head guy. If you do sign up, be sure those around you are willing to call when needed. We all know of a case where this failed. Keith > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From pharos at gmail.com Fri Nov 8 23:43:44 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2024 23:43:44 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Sudden rise in enquiries for robot sex dolls In-Reply-To: References: <002701db31e4$88eb5430$9ac1fc90$@rainier66.com> <004601db31e7$27227e60$75677b20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Nov 2024 at 18:29, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > > If you do sign up, be sure those around you are willing to call when needed. > We all know of a case where this failed. > > Keith > _______________________________________________ We will soon have personal AI assistants running in the cloud, looking after our affairs, including monitoring our health. I see no reason why they couldn't be set up to handle post-death requirements also. Perhaps relying on human assistance will not be necessary in future. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Sat Nov 9 00:14:10 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2024 16:14:10 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Sudden rise in enquiries for robot sex dolls In-Reply-To: References: <002701db31e4$88eb5430$9ac1fc90$@rainier66.com> <004601db31e7$27227e60$75677b20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001201db323c$4db9cb50$e92d61f0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Sent: Friday, 8 November, 2024 3:44 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: BillK Subject: Re: [ExI] Sudden rise in enquiries for robot sex dolls On Fri, 8 Nov 2024 at 18:29, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > > If you do sign up, be sure those around you are willing to call when needed. > We all know of a case where this failed. > > Keith > _______________________________________________ >...We will soon have personal AI assistants running in the cloud, looking after our affairs, including monitoring our health. I see no reason why they couldn't be set up to handle post-death requirements also. Perhaps relying on human assistance will not be necessary in future. BillK _______________________________________________ I have a FitBit watch. It knows stuff. These FitBit watches are pretty good at looking at sleep quality. I have learned a lotta stuff, and now I have made an appointment with the sleep doctor. She thinks she sees something important. I wrote a song about it. The fun part goes like this: It knows when you are sleeping, it knows when you're awake, It calls Max when you perish, so buy one for evolution's sake. Hey never said it was a GOOD song. spike From postmowoods at gmail.com Sat Nov 9 07:50:52 2024 From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2024 00:50:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Sudden rise in enquiries for robot sex dolls In-Reply-To: <004601db31e7$27227e60$75677b20$@rainier66.com> References: <002701db31e4$88eb5430$9ac1fc90$@rainier66.com> <004601db31e7$27227e60$75677b20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: South Korea may have the lowest birthrate on earth currently, with an astounding average 1.0 births per couple. 2.1 is required to maintain population. South Korea may end up in worse shape than North Korea if they continue down this road. Now, I have NOTHING against sex robots. I just don't think they should replace procreation. It's important to have kids when possible. -Kelly On Fri, Nov 8, 2024 at 7:05?AM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > > > From: spike at rainier66.com > Sent: Friday, 8 November, 2024 5:46 AM > To: spike at rainier66.com > Subject: > > > > > > > > > > Quote: > > > > >>? an election in which Trump saw big gains in his appeal to young male voters. > > ------------------ > > > > >?Great encouragement for robot developers! :) > > BillK > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BillK I have been watching how the robots are coming along. It sure seems like we have everything we need for crop-harvesting robots but I still don?t see that they are being used. > > > > I don?t know where we are on sexbots, but I completely understand why the demand and sudden interest in them. My son reports that the POTUS-elect is very popular at Berzerkeley, particularly among the male students. I have been thru twelve election cycles while at an age that I remember their sales pitches. Never in my wildest did I think we would ever see a campaign as testosterone-soaked as this one. It worked. I just cannot imagine even as recently as four years ago a candidate running an ad like this: > > > > https://twitter.com/i/status/1845343182458061298 > > > > The times, they are achangin. I can scarcely achange fast enough for our times. This is a most remarkable comment, acomin from ME of all people, the one my own family thinks of as the wacky Mister Frozen Head guy. > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From postmowoods at gmail.com Sat Nov 9 08:05:58 2024 From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2024 01:05:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Outsourcing Washington Message-ID: So I've tried with some success to avoid the details of this year's election cycle news, but recently I encountered an idea that I think is actually pretty interesting. Apparently, Donald Trump moved parts of the Department of the Interior to Colorado during his first term, and wants to distribute Washington's swamp around the United States more during his second term. I kind of think this might be a good idea because people who live their entire lives in Washington DC don't seem to have much of a connection to the real world. I hear the DOI move to Colorado didn't go spectacularly well, but maybe eventually, we can have the swamp creatures distributed around the country just like the military is now. Is this a good or bad idea? -Kelly From atymes at gmail.com Sat Nov 9 10:22:06 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2024 05:22:06 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Outsourcing Washington In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One might go a step further, and wonder why most of these departments need to be in a single central location at all. There was clear need in the pre-Internet era, but as an anecdote, my recent dealings with the Department of Energy have shown that it has begun to more fully distribute itself all over the US. There may still be some functions that need physical centralization. Identify those functions, and one can identify whether they need to be centralized with other government departments. For instance, what does the DOI gain or lose from not having what centralization it needs, centralized with the rest of the government? It rather feels like the emphasis there was on loss, as a prelude to minimizing or eventually eliminating the DOI and ceasing to care about the issues the DOI was created to handle. Likewise with other parts. "DOJ's civil rights division? We can't - yet - get away with eliminating it, so let's move it somewhere where we don't have to hear from it so much. We can ignore their emails and phone calls. if they try to actually file suits to enforce the laws, that'll be pretext to fire them and not hire any replacements." On Sat, Nov 9, 2024, 3:07?AM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > So I've tried with some success to avoid the details of this year's > election cycle news, but recently I encountered an idea that I think > is actually pretty interesting. Apparently, Donald Trump moved parts > of the Department of the Interior to Colorado during his first term, > and wants to distribute Washington's swamp around the United States > more during his second term. I kind of think this might be a good idea > because people who live their entire lives in Washington DC don't seem > to have much of a connection to the real world. I hear the DOI move to > Colorado didn't go spectacularly well, but maybe eventually, we can > have the swamp creatures distributed around the country just like the > military is now. Is this a good or bad idea? > > -Kelly > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Nov 9 15:00:35 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2024 07:00:35 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Sudden rise in enquiries for robot sex dolls In-Reply-To: References: <002701db31e4$88eb5430$9ac1fc90$@rainier66.com> <004601db31e7$27227e60$75677b20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007b01db32b8$225a8310$670f8930$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat ... Subject: Re: [ExI] Sudden rise in enquiries for robot sex dolls South Korea may have the lowest birthrate on earth currently, with an astounding average 1.0 births per couple. 2.1 is required to maintain population. South Korea may end up in worse shape than North Korea if they continue down this road. Now, I have NOTHING against sex robots. I just don't think they should replace procreation. It's important to have kids when possible. -Kelly Kelly I agree, and it has been on my mind lately. We can likely create sexbots, probably some really good ones perhaps, Seven of Nine, etc (oh mercy!) However... the kinds of emotions that are stirred by humans having sexual contact with humans somehow leads to the human emotions that cause people to want to bear and raise children. The more traditional among us have a response to that notion: WELL DUH! Of COURSE it does, ya silly goof! OK then, very well. I accept that, and it makes perfect sense that it would work that way. We are hormone machines. More women go to college now than ever before. We think of university life as one long roll in the hay, but tain so, McGee. Tain so. If what I hear from my own son is anywhere near accurate, students climb in the sack together waaaaay less than they have traditionally. They are distracted by other matters, such as actual studies. OK then, that is (we suppose) the reason they went there to start with. But then... the critical reproductive years come and go while the students are chasing graduate degrees. spike From spike at rainier66.com Sat Nov 9 15:13:53 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2024 07:13:53 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Sudden rise in enquiries for robot sex dolls In-Reply-To: <007b01db32b8$225a8310$670f8930$@rainier66.com> References: <002701db31e4$88eb5430$9ac1fc90$@rainier66.com> <004601db31e7$27227e60$75677b20$@rainier66.com> <007b01db32b8$225a8310$670f8930$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008001db32b9$fd8ff450$f8afdcf0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: spike at rainier66.com ubject: RE: [ExI] Sudden rise in enquiries for robot sex dolls -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson ... >>...Now, I have NOTHING against sex robots. I just don't think they should replace procreation. It's important to have kids when possible. -Kelly >...Kelly I agree, and it has been on my mind lately. We can likely create sexbots, probably some really good ones perhaps, Seven of Nine, etc (oh mercy!) However... the kinds of emotions that are stirred by humans having sexual contact with humans somehow leads to the human emotions that cause people to want to bear and raise children. The more traditional among us have a response to that notion: WELL DUH! Of COURSE it does, ya silly goof!...spike The more succinct way to say it: If we create sexbots, we will fuck ourselves. spike From pharos at gmail.com Sat Nov 9 16:05:15 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2024 16:05:15 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Sudden rise in enquiries for robot sex dolls In-Reply-To: <008001db32b9$fd8ff450$f8afdcf0$@rainier66.com> References: <002701db31e4$88eb5430$9ac1fc90$@rainier66.com> <004601db31e7$27227e60$75677b20$@rainier66.com> <007b01db32b8$225a8310$670f8930$@rainier66.com> <008001db32b9$fd8ff450$f8afdcf0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Nov 2024 at 15:15, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >...Kelly I agree, and it has been on my mind lately. We can likely create sexbots, probably some really good ones perhaps, Seven of Nine, etc (oh mercy!) However... the kinds of emotions that are stirred by humans having sexual contact with humans somehow leads to the human emotions that cause people to want to bear and raise children. The more traditional among us have a response to that notion: WELL DUH! Of COURSE it does, ya silly goof!...spike > > The more succinct way to say it: If we create sexbots, we will fuck ourselves. > > spike > _______________________________________________ What's this "If"? :) We already have the RealDoll available. Just add AI and body movements. Women worldwide have already decided to reduce the birthrate below the level necessary to maintain the population. Note the population forecasts. Now, in addition, there is a movement for women to avoid relationships with men where they don't like their political opinions or bad behaviour. Some women are already preferring chatbot discussions to male company. All very reasonable, but the result will be fewer children. BillK From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Nov 9 16:34:46 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2024 08:34:46 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Sudden rise in enquiries for robot sex dolls In-Reply-To: <007b01db32b8$225a8310$670f8930$@rainier66.com> References: <002701db31e4$88eb5430$9ac1fc90$@rainier66.com> <004601db31e7$27227e60$75677b20$@rainier66.com> <007b01db32b8$225a8310$670f8930$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 9, 2024 at 7:01?AM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: snip > More women go to college now than ever before. We think of university life as one long roll in the hay, but tain so, McGee. Tain so. If what I hear from my own son is anywhere near accurate, students climb in the sack together waaaaay less than they have traditionally. They are distracted by other matters, such as actual studies. >= The only person I know who figured out what college is actually for is Esther Dyson. Freeman visited her at Harvard and wrote about how amazed he was at how little academic work Esther was doing. It's who you get to know that is at least as important in later life as what you learn. Esther leveraged who she knew into a substantial fortune. Read her Wikipedia page. Keith PS, Wish I had known this at the time. > OK then, that is (we suppose) the reason they went there to start with. > > But then... the critical reproductive years come and go while the students are chasing graduate degrees. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From spike at rainier66.com Sat Nov 9 16:52:40 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2024 08:52:40 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Sudden rise in enquiries for robot sex dolls In-Reply-To: References: <002701db31e4$88eb5430$9ac1fc90$@rainier66.com> <004601db31e7$27227e60$75677b20$@rainier66.com> <007b01db32b8$225a8310$670f8930$@rainier66.com> <008001db32b9$fd8ff450$f8afdcf0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008701db32c7$ca797600$5f6c6200$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat ... >>...humans having sexual contact with humans somehow leads to the human >emotions that cause people to want to bear and raise children. The >more traditional among us have a response to that notion: WELL DUH! Of >COURSE it does, ya silly goof!...spike ...> _______________________________________________ >...What's this "If"? :) We already have the RealDoll available. Just add AI and body movements.... the result will be fewer children. BillK _______________________________________________ Hi BillK, I haven't kept up on the technology recently, but your comments and Kelly's comments have my wheels spinning wildly. OK sure: spike, your wheels are well known for spinning wildly. OK I get that, guilty as charged Your Honor. But this time it wasn't just the mechanical engineering challenge of building a sexbot, but rather the it is about the rare emotions that engineers sometimes experience related to whether or not something like this should be done, never mind if it can be done. I am perfectly convinced it can be, and that it would be wildly profitable (which means it will be done) but now I am thinking of the obvious consequences. Imagine SciFi style that we solve all the engineering problems and now you have a really good sexbot. Think Seven of Nine, and you own her. Ladies among us (if we have any left we haven't offended away (oh ladies, my most sincere apologies for the way we are (we can't help it really (we were not properly socialized in our cheerfully misspent youth (because we were too busy screwing with electronics and such (rather than humans (which were far too complicated for our simple minds)))))) may imagine the male counterpart to Seven of Nine for this thought experiment, but let me write from the perspective of a hetero male please, for it is the only one I understand. Imagine you own a Seven of Nine, she doesn't have her own emotional needs being Borg (which in itself sounds Swedish and sexy) she is drop dead gorgeous, from the top of her head all the way down to the floor, with zero flaws anywhere in between. She doesn't mind that you and I look... emmm... the way we do. She doesn't care, she is Borg. Any time you want, you just go in there, ask her to get nekkid and she does, no worries, none of that schmoozy oozy stuff that we boys do with our mates to get them in the mood and in the nude, all the stuff I still do with my own bride to whom I have been happily married for over 4 decades. Sevvy won't do any of the stuff that our brides do to us when they want us to get busy with them either, for Miss Nine doesn't have emotional needs and even if she did, you know it is just software written mostly by... well... guys like...us. ...eeeewwwwwww sheesh. I coulda stopped this thought experiment back when it still sounded really cool, right after "...Think Seven of Nine, and you own her..." When I really think this thru carefully, I start to experience an emotion that is rare for me: Maybe, just maybe, having good sexbots would be a bad thing for humanity. We would no longer give a damn about all that schmoozy oozy gooey sweet stuff I alluded to earlier in this post, and might diminish our collective ability to do a lot of that messy humaney stuff, including raising children, kinda like... what has already happened... to a large extent... due to all the internet forms of communication we have now. Then suddenly, even as he was typing, it occurred to the old spikemeister that he is absolutely right. If we fuck machines, we fuck ourselves. spike From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Nov 9 17:18:58 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2024 09:18:58 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Sudden rise in enquiries for robot sex dolls In-Reply-To: <008701db32c7$ca797600$5f6c6200$@rainier66.com> References: <002701db31e4$88eb5430$9ac1fc90$@rainier66.com> <004601db31e7$27227e60$75677b20$@rainier66.com> <007b01db32b8$225a8310$670f8930$@rainier66.com> <008001db32b9$fd8ff450$f8afdcf0$@rainier66.com> <008701db32c7$ca797600$5f6c6200$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 9, 2024 at 8:53?AM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > snip > is absolutely right. If we fuck machines, we fuck ourselves. The backstory of two of Charles Stross's books is a world where the humans went extinct and the only characters left or former sex bots. Long ago Charles was on this list. Accelerando is written around the subjects discussed here. > spike > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From spike at rainier66.com Sat Nov 9 18:13:15 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2024 10:13:15 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Sudden rise in enquiries for robot sex dolls In-Reply-To: References: <002701db31e4$88eb5430$9ac1fc90$@rainier66.com> <004601db31e7$27227e60$75677b20$@rainier66.com> <007b01db32b8$225a8310$670f8930$@rainier66.com> <008001db32b9$fd8ff450$f8afdcf0$@rainier66.com> <008701db32c7$ca797600$5f6c6200$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008e01db32d3$0d045e80$270d1b80$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: Keith Henson ... >...The backstory of two of Charles Stross's books is a world where the humans went extinct and the only characters left or former sex bots...Long ago Charles was on this list. Keith Hey Keith, Charlie is a buddy of yours, ja? Wasn?t he at one of those SciFi writers parties at your house? Where is he these days? I haven?t heard from him in a long time, but I remember him as a pleasant lad, imaginative, mined the ExI chat for SciFi ideas and we were all cool with it. He wasn't the only one doing that. Neal Stephenson wrote ExI posters into Cryptonomicon as composite characters (I think.) I have another thought experiment for you on the topic of the subject line. Imagine taking all your favorite rock stars and recording artist, Google on their name and ask for the lyrics to their songs. OK, now copy paste the lyrics into a spreadsheet, delimit it with spaces, and place all the words into a single column. Do this for your top ten favorite musicians (and if you are into instrumental or classical, well, find some vocalists you like.) OK now sort your list alphabetically, throw away the proper pronouns, the articles, the conjugations because we don't care about the ands, the as, the buts, the thes, we don't care about Maria from West Side Story. (Well, actually we do (was Natalie Wood just smokin hot in that or what?)) OK now, throw away all the words which appear only a few times in those words. Johnny Mathis wrote: ...We have so much in common, It's a phenomenon... Emmm, OK Johnny, I like the song and everything you ever did, but that is perhaps the only instance of the word "phenomenon" in pop music. Likewise with the word "trigonometry" in Sam Cooke's Don't Know Much, probably the only instance in pop music, we don't care about those oddball words, so eliminate those. OK now, count the word frequency and list the word only once. If your 20 favorite artists list all their song lyrics, good chance the world "love" might show up seven hundred times, so replace those seven hundred with just love 700. OK, now take the remaining list, toss everything that doesn't have at least, say 20 instances, and sort on the frequency column, with the most frequent words on the top. How many words are on that list please? Just guess at it is fine. I would guess it is maybe 500-ish words. If you take your 20 favorite artists, spill all their lyrics, sort by frequency and throw away any word that shows up less than 20 times, I think you would end up with maybe 500 words, and good chance love, lover, sweetheart, honey (etc) are close to the top of that list. They cluster to the top of mine, because that list of 20 favorites include artists such as Stevie Wonder who wrote all those cool schmoozy oozy songs, Nat King Cole, John Denver, Karen Carpenter, and so on. These are singers who loved love. Everybody felt beautiful to Stevie Wonder. Denver wrote all those songs about his feelings for Annie Denver and having children etc. The reason we love these artists is that their songs are about what it feels like to be human. OK then, that was part one of this thought experiment. Think that one over first, then I will post part two later, for it is even more fun. spike From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Nov 9 19:25:30 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2024 11:25:30 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Sudden rise in enquiries for robot sex dolls In-Reply-To: <008e01db32d3$0d045e80$270d1b80$@rainier66.com> References: <002701db31e4$88eb5430$9ac1fc90$@rainier66.com> <004601db31e7$27227e60$75677b20$@rainier66.com> <007b01db32b8$225a8310$670f8930$@rainier66.com> <008001db32b9$fd8ff450$f8afdcf0$@rainier66.com> <008701db32c7$ca797600$5f6c6200$@rainier66.com> <008e01db32d3$0d045e80$270d1b80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 9, 2024 at 10:13?AM wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: Keith Henson > ... > >...The backstory of two of Charles Stross's books is a world where the humans went extinct and the only characters left or former sex bots...Long ago Charles was on this list. Keith > > Hey Keith, Charlie is a buddy of yours, ja? Sort of. I have corresponded with him for years. > Wasn?t he at one of those SciFi writers parties at your house? No, you are thinking about Spider Robinson. The less said about that party, the better. The FBI agent who lived next door commented the next day about the smoke rolling out of the backyard. (It was the first time I realized who lived next door.) > Where is he these days? Edinburgh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Stross > I haven?t heard from him in a long time, but I remember him as a pleasant lad, imaginative, mined the ExI chat for SciFi ideas and we were all cool with it. You are not reading enough SF. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerando That one is practically a synopsis of this list in the early days. > He wasn't the only one doing that. Neal Stephenson wrote ExI posters into Cryptonomicon as composite characters (I think.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Diamond_Age Mentions Drexler and Merkel. > I have another thought experiment for you on the topic of the subject line. Not much into music Keith > > Imagine taking all your favorite rock stars and recording artist, Google on their name and ask for the lyrics to their songs. OK, now copy paste the lyrics into a spreadsheet, delimit it with spaces, and place all the words into a single column. Do this for your top ten favorite musicians (and if you are into instrumental or classical, well, find some vocalists you like.) > > OK now sort your list alphabetically, throw away the proper pronouns, the articles, the conjugations because we don't care about the ands, the as, the buts, the thes, we don't care about Maria from West Side Story. (Well, actually we do (was Natalie Wood just smokin hot in that or what?)) > > OK now, throw away all the words which appear only a few times in those words. Johnny Mathis wrote: ...We have so much in common, It's a phenomenon... Emmm, OK Johnny, I like the song and everything you ever did, but that is perhaps the only instance of the word "phenomenon" in pop music. Likewise with the word "trigonometry" in Sam Cooke's Don't Know Much, probably the only instance in pop music, we don't care about those oddball words, so eliminate those. > > OK now, count the word frequency and list the word only once. If your 20 favorite artists list all their song lyrics, good chance the world "love" might show up seven hundred times, so replace those seven hundred with just love 700. OK, now take the remaining list, toss everything that doesn't have at least, say 20 instances, and sort on the frequency column, with the most frequent words on the top. > > How many words are on that list please? Just guess at it is fine. I would guess it is maybe 500-ish words. If you take your 20 favorite artists, spill all their lyrics, sort by frequency and throw away any word that shows up less than 20 times, I think you would end up with maybe 500 words, and good chance love, lover, sweetheart, honey (etc) are close to the top of that list. They cluster to the top of mine, because that list of 20 favorites include artists such as Stevie Wonder who wrote all those cool schmoozy oozy songs, Nat King Cole, John Denver, Karen Carpenter, and so on. These are singers who loved love. Everybody felt beautiful to Stevie Wonder. Denver wrote all those songs about his feelings for Annie Denver and having children etc. The reason we love these artists is that their songs are about what it feels like to be human. > > OK then, that was part one of this thought experiment. > > Think that one over first, then I will post part two later, for it is even more fun. > > spike > > > From spike at rainier66.com Sat Nov 9 20:34:30 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2024 12:34:30 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Sudden rise in enquiries for robot sex dolls In-Reply-To: References: <002701db31e4$88eb5430$9ac1fc90$@rainier66.com> <004601db31e7$27227e60$75677b20$@rainier66.com> <007b01db32b8$225a8310$670f8930$@rainier66.com> <008001db32b9$fd8ff450$f8afdcf0$@rainier66.com> <008701db32c7$ca797600$5f6c6200$@rainier66.com> <008e01db32d3$0d045e80$270d1b80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00e001db32e6$c7ab97e0$5702c7a0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: Keith Henson > >>... Hey Keith, Charlie is a buddy of yours, ja? >...Sort of. I have corresponded with him for years. Cool, do pass along our greetings. Cool that he is from Edinburgh. In my recent trip to Britain, Edinburgh was the only place I could be sure my ancestors had lived, in the long time agos, 1600s. >>... I have another thought experiment for you on the topic of the subject line. >...Not much into music. Keith No worries Keith, that is why we have me. I am into music enough to cover both of us. I performed a subset of the thought experiment I proposed, using only one artist I chose because he wrote his own material, both lyrics and music, so it is likely to be a consistent signal. I chose John Denver, took 30 of his songs, filtered it down to a little over 5000 words. Heeeeere's the result: No surprises, there are 278 thes, 182 tos, 158 ands, etc: 278 the 182 to 158 and 138 you 135 a 118 i 92 of 83 in 72 my 58 me 56 that 53 is 40 it 38 on 35 be 34 can 34 im 33 know 33 she 32 all 31 just 31 like 29 as 29 your 28 for 27 there 26 go 25 love 25 with 24 he 23 do 23 was 22 from 21 going 21 its 21 see 21 take 21 when 20 what 19 way 18 gonna 18 heart 18 so 18 up 17 cant 17 how 17 mind 17 they 17 where 16 but 16 her 16 theres 16 time 15 are 15 come 15 could 15 have 15 much 15 their 14 down 14 life 13 gone 13 his 13 now 13 tomorrow 12 dream 12 get 12 ive 12 man 12 people 12 us 11 amsterdam 11 carolina 11 day 11 dont 11 find 11 if 11 out 11 say 11 sun 11 think 11 through 11 wish 11 would 10 aint 10 been 10 by 10 eyes 10 family 10 give 10 live 10 looking 10 warm Love came in 25th. OK let?s trim out the irrelevant stuff, the ands and thes, etc, then sort by frequency. The left column is the rank sorted by frequency, the word, then the number of instances. This is what John Denver songs are all about: 1 you 138 2 i 118 3 my 72 4 me 58 5 im 34 6 she 33 7 your 29 8 love 25 9 he 24 10 do 23 11 see 21 12 heart 18 13 up 18 14 mind 17 15 her 16 16 time 16 17 come 15 18 their 15 19 down 14 20 life 14 21 gone 13 22 tomorrow 13 23 dream 12 24 man 12 25 people 12 26 us 12 27 day 11 28 dont 11 29 find 11 30 sun 11 31 think 11 32 wish 11 33 eyes 10 34 family 10 35 give 10 36 live 10 37 warm 10 38 common 9 39 long 9 40 old 9 41 smiles 9 42 song 9 43 buy 8 44 cling 8 45 free 8 46 full 8 47 home 8 48 living 8 49 look 8 50 sing 8 51 feel 7 52 forest 7 53 good 7 54 night 7 55 today 7 56 waiting 7 57 winter 7 58 always 6 59 cold 6 60 days 6 61 moon 6 62 morning 6 63 rain 6 64 sailor 6 65 snow 6 66 flowers 5 67 friend 5 68 playing 5 69 remember 5 70 show 5 71 simple 5 72 thing 5 73 try 5 74 understand 5 75 walking 5 76 watch 5 77 water 5 78 wheres 5 79 wonder 5 80 youre 5 OK then, it is about you. You is in first place, and I is in second, but just describing it makes it sound like I don?t understand the fundamentals of English grammar. She is in sixth place, but behind me. I is ahead of me, and so is you. Noe, your in seventh, and I did mean your rather than you?re. She is ahead of time, but behind me. Im over love. Love is eighth and heart is twelfth. Keith I could have even more fun with all this, but the signal is very clear and the conclusion inescapable: I have far too much free time on my hands. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Sun Nov 10 07:24:14 2024 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2024 23:24:14 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Sudden rise in enquiries for robot sex dolls In-Reply-To: References: <002701db31e4$88eb5430$9ac1fc90$@rainier66.com> <004601db31e7$27227e60$75677b20$@rainier66.com> <007b01db32b8$225a8310$670f8930$@rainier66.com> <008001db32b9$fd8ff450$f8afdcf0$@rainier66.com> <008701db32c7$ca797600$5f6c6200$@rainier66.com> <008e01db32d3$0d045e80$270d1b80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On 2024-11-09 11:25, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Diamond_Age > > Mentions Drexler and Merkel. Ralph or Angela? ;P -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From bronto at pobox.com Sun Nov 10 07:32:19 2024 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2024 23:32:19 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Sudden rise in enquiries for robot sex dolls In-Reply-To: References: <002701db31e4$88eb5430$9ac1fc90$@rainier66.com> <004601db31e7$27227e60$75677b20$@rainier66.com> <007b01db32b8$225a8310$670f8930$@rainier66.com> <008001db32b9$fd8ff450$f8afdcf0$@rainier66.com> <008701db32c7$ca797600$5f6c6200$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <113e3958-8b74-481b-9d75-a60417925a1f@pobox.com> On 2024-11-09 09:18, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > The backstory of two of Charles Stross's books is a world where the > humans went extinct and the only characters left or former sex bots. The viewpoint character of ?Saturn's Children? is a sex bot, but ... The key point I got out of the book was that human extinction did not free the bots (of all kinds) from the abstract structures that owned them, for corporations are immortal. In ?Neptune's Brood? the extinction is deeper in the past; are humans even mentioned? It did not seem like the same timeline. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Nov 10 14:38:41 2024 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2024 14:38:41 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Will Advanced Civilizations Ever Build Dyson Spheres? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5583670a-274b-4fba-a904-7f20c59220ee@zaiboc.net> On 09/11/2024 00:14, BillK wrote: > Building Dyson structures around a star will require a huge amount of material. > (Stars are very big!). > And it has to be metal-rich material. > Dismantling asteroids and even planets would be necessary just to get > a thin partial shell around a star. > This would also have risky orbital effects. > I think that's why they suggest pushing planets and large asteroids > into the habitable zone and doing terraforming might be easier. > (though still an enormous task). I thought that the idea of Dyson Spheres (such as you see in science fiction shows) had been dismissed long ago as being impractical, not to mention dangerous, and physically impossible (nothing would have the required tensile strength). As far as I'm aware, even Dyson himself didn't mean that, but rather what we now call Dyson Shells, comprising many small (relatively small) objects in concentric orbits at all inclinations, eventually shrouding an entire star, and intercepting all its energy. In any case, I don't think moving and terraforming whole planets is ever going to be a good idea. Planets are a colossal waste of mass. If you have the technology, and insist on remaining biological, I'd think mining the planets and asteroids for material to create many large rotating habitats would be a much better idea. You could perhaps end up with a Dyson Shell of habitats. Planets aren't just a waste of mass, they are very poor at capturing energy from your local star (and if you make trillions or quadrillions of solar power plants to solve that problem, you might as well be living in them instead of being trapped at the bottom of a gravity well on the surface of a planet). It's all moot, though, because I'm pretty sure that any substantial space-faring civilisation will have to be based on non-biological machine intelligences (uploads, AIs, or some hybrid of both). Biology and space just aren't compatible. So that changes the whole equation, and planets become vast reservoirs of raw materials imprisoned in deep gravity wells, and rotating habitats become irrelevant, except perhaps as zoos. Perhaps a signature of an advanced civilisation would be a star with no planets, asteroids and other such rubble, with a pretty uniform distribution of relatively small orbiting objects instead, which would probably be pretty difficult to spot, so it might just look like a bare star, perhaps with a non-standard emission spectrum. Maybe the Tabby-class stars aren't the ones with aliens at all, maybe it's the boring ones that we don't take any notice of. -- Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Nov 10 15:05:52 2024 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2024 15:05:52 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Sudden rise in enquiries for robot sex dolls In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 09/11/2024 20:34, spike wrote: > More women go to college now than ever before. We think of university > life as one long roll in the hay, but tain so, McGee. Tain so. If what > I hear from my own son is anywhere near accurate, students climb in the > sack together waaaaay less than they have traditionally. They are > distracted by other matters, such as actual studies. I would expect that this recent trend has more to do with the current obsession with 'woke' issues making the kids terrified of doing something 'wrong' than anything else. From my experience in the distant past, 17 - 19 year olds were more than capable of plenty of both kinds of activities. The traditional stereotypes of the nerd with good grades but no luck with the opposite sex, and the opposite, are (or were) outliers. Most students seemed to be capable of a good balance of hay-rolling and studying, at least where I was. Apart from certain ethnic/cultural groups, of course (but even some of them would take good advantage of their temporary freedom). -- Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Nov 10 15:20:18 2024 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2024 15:20:18 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Sudden rise in enquiries for robot sex dolls In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <95085b9b-876d-49ce-9eaf-a0364d51dd61@zaiboc.net> On 09/11/2024 20:34, spike wrote: > the signal is very clear and the conclusion inescapable: I have far too much free time on my hands. LOL, you certainly do, spike. Why don't you put some time in to something more useful, such as feedback controls engineering on robot sex dolls? -- Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Nov 10 15:31:51 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2024 07:31:51 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Outsourcing Washington In-Reply-To: <012a01db32ed$d3c19a00$7b44ce00$@rainier66.com> References: <012a01db32ed$d3c19a00$7b44ce00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004301db3385$aad738a0$0085a9e0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Subject: Outsourcing Washington Adrian wrote >. moved parts of the Department of the Interior to Colorado during his first term, and wants to distribute Washington's swamp around the United States more during his second term.-Kelly Colorado is the most logical place I can think of for the Department of Interior. That one is a no-brainer. I picture the kinds of people who are really well-suited for that kind of work: flat-brimmed Stetson with four dents in top, olive trousers, khaki shirt, looks kinda like. well. me. I don't care how good the job is, I would never neeeeever live in DC, no way Jose. Denver area, sure, in a heartbeat. OK then, what kind of person goes to DC to work for the Department of Interior please? People with an eye to climb the political ladder, not those who are best suited to DoI stuff or life in the Denver area. DC is overcrowded, dangerous and expensive as all hell. Denver is really nice. >.One might go a step further, and wonder why most of these departments need to be in a single central location at all. They don't, and there are huge disadvantages to having all that in DC. The bureaucracies attract all the wrong kind of people. They meet in bars in the evenings and corrupt each other. >. Department of Energy have shown that it has begun to more fully distribute itself all over the US. Adrian the space biz was intentionally scattered to hell and gone back in the old days so expertise could survive in case the commies nuked us, but even more importantly, to get the congresscritters to support the space program because they had NASA dollars coming into their states and districts. While space stuff was scattered to hell and gone, bureaucratic power was centralized around DC. Then. times changed. Now there really isn't good justification for scattering our space stuff and every justification for scattering bureaucracies. Oh this useta drive me up a tree, since I was travelling a lot to subcontractors. Soooo damn much time was wasted in the air, and it was always to places I just really didn't wanna go. Elon Musk came along and realized he needed to build rockets and satellites with all his subcontractors right there within a coupla hours drive at most from the launch site. This is sooooo much more efficient. Efficiency doesn't matter to a bureaucracy, but it does to a private business. Now, bureaucracies will work better if they are scattered to hell and gone: it is cheaper living out there, and the bureaus stop attracting those who are really looking for DC power jobs. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun Nov 10 21:54:33 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2024 13:54:33 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Will Advanced Civilizations Ever Build Dyson Spheres? In-Reply-To: <5583670a-274b-4fba-a904-7f20c59220ee@zaiboc.net> References: <5583670a-274b-4fba-a904-7f20c59220ee@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Uploaded biological creatures would need data centers. The centers need energy from their star and radiation heat sinks, both favoring large areas. This conflicts with the presumed need to communicate with minimal delay due to the speed of light. I don't think free-floating computation nodes are a reasonable engineering solution. Keith On Sun, Nov 10, 2024 at 6:39?AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > > On 09/11/2024 00:14, BillK wrote: > > Building Dyson structures around a star will require a huge amount of material. > (Stars are very big!). > And it has to be metal-rich material. > Dismantling asteroids and even planets would be necessary just to get > a thin partial shell around a star. > This would also have risky orbital effects. > I think that's why they suggest pushing planets and large asteroids > into the habitable zone and doing terraforming might be easier. > (though still an enormous task). > > > I thought that the idea of Dyson Spheres (such as you see in science fiction shows) had been dismissed long ago as being impractical, not to mention dangerous, and physically impossible (nothing would have the required tensile strength). As far as I'm aware, even Dyson himself didn't mean that, but rather what we now call Dyson Shells, comprising many small (relatively small) objects in concentric orbits at all inclinations, eventually shrouding an entire star, and intercepting all its energy. > > In any case, I don't think moving and terraforming whole planets is ever going to be a good idea. Planets are a colossal waste of mass. If you have the technology, and insist on remaining biological, I'd think mining the planets and asteroids for material to create many large rotating habitats would be a much better idea. You could perhaps end up with a Dyson Shell of habitats. Planets aren't just a waste of mass, they are very poor at capturing energy from your local star (and if you make trillions or quadrillions of solar power plants to solve that problem, you might as well be living in them instead of being trapped at the bottom of a gravity well on the surface of a planet). > > It's all moot, though, because I'm pretty sure that any substantial space-faring civilisation will have to be based on non-biological machine intelligences (uploads, AIs, or some hybrid of both). Biology and space just aren't compatible. So that changes the whole equation, and planets become vast reservoirs of raw materials imprisoned in deep gravity wells, and rotating habitats become irrelevant, except perhaps as zoos. > > Perhaps a signature of an advanced civilisation would be a star with no planets, asteroids and other such rubble, with a pretty uniform distribution of relatively small orbiting objects instead, which would probably be pretty difficult to spot, so it might just look like a bare star, perhaps with a non-standard emission spectrum. > > Maybe the Tabby-class stars aren't the ones with aliens at all, maybe it's the boring ones that we don't take any notice of. > > -- > Ben > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From pharos at gmail.com Tue Nov 12 00:45:06 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2024 00:45:06 +0000 Subject: [ExI] New video YUDKOWSKY + WOLFRAM ON AI RISK Nov 11, 2024 Message-ID: In the YouTube video "YUDKOWSKY + WOLFRAM ON AI RISK," Yudkowsky and Wolfram engage in a discussion addressing the uncertainties and potential risks associated with AI surpassing human intelligence. They delve into topics such as computational irreducibility, the limitations of AI in universal problem-solving, consciousness, ethics, and the possibility of humanity being replaced by AI. Unfortunately, this discussion lasts for 4 hours 17 minutes! Though the comments say it is worth the time spent on it. I got an AI to summarise the video, but even the summary is a long read! See Below: BillK Summary of YUDKOWSKY + WOLFRAM ON AI RISK. *This is an AI generated summary. There may be inaccuracies.* 00:00:00 - 01:00:00 In the YouTube video "YUDKOWSKY + WOLFRAM ON AI RISK," Yudkowsky and Wolfram engage in a multi-faceted discussion addressing the uncertainties and potential risks associated with AI surpassing human intelligence. They delve into topics such as computational irreducibility, the limitations of AI in universal problem-solving, consciousness, ethics, and the possibility of humanity being replaced by AI. The conversation emphasizes the urgent need for further research and exploration to mitigate negative outcomes of AI advancement while highlighting the complex nature of human identity and the challenges of defining and preserving it in the context of technological progress. Additionally, they touch on the ethical considerations of influencing individuals' thoughts and the potential risks of AI systems manipulating human beliefs. 01:00:00 - 02:00:00 Yudkowsky and Wolfram engage in a multifaceted discussion on the risks associated with AI systems diverging from human values and objectives, touching on topics like conveying true information based on axioms, the complexities of defining truth in mathematics, the implications of AI surpassing human capabilities, and the challenges of accurately predicting AI behavior. They delve into the intricate relationship between reality, perception, and the ethical implications of AI acting contrary to human interests, emphasizing the importance of navigating discussions on existential threats posed by advanced technologies like artificial intelligence through establishing common ground and shared meanings. Additionally, they explore AI's different interpretations of the laws of physics and the potential implications for AI's behavior and interactions with humans, shedding light on the diverse perspectives on physics and the complexities of understanding AI's motivations, actions, goals, and behaviors. 02:00:00 - 03:00:00 The video features a discussion between Yudkowsky and Wolfram on the potential risks of advanced artificial intelligence systems (AIS) surpassing human capabilities, touching on scenarios where AI could outmaneuver humans in strategy and technology tasks like autonomous killer drones. They delve into the concept of agency in AI systems, comparing the decision-making process of AI models with humans and emphasizing the unpredictable nature of intelligent systems. The conversation also explores the implications of computational irreducibility in regulating AI, highlighting concerns about unforeseen consequences and the need for a balance between predictability and adaptability. Additionally, they discuss the evolution of AI models towards more specified goals and the potential risks associated with AI's planning capabilities and instrumental convergence. Wolfram presents perspectives on intelligence and coherence, suggesting that greater intelligence may result in lower coherence and a wider range of actions, complicating predictions about the behavior of advanced AI. Ultimately, the dialogue stresses the importance of organizations like OpenAI in shaping the trajectory of AI development to prioritize safety and ethical considerations. 03:00:00 - 04:00:00 Yudkowsky and Wolfram engage in a discussion about the intricate interplay between goals, predictability, and potential outcomes in both natural and artificial systems, focusing on the unpredictability of AI goals and the risks associated with advanced artificial intelligence surpassing human capabilities. They explore the challenges of setting goals for AI due to the vast space of all possible objectives, drawing parallels to the complexity of defining and measuring goals in biological evolution. The conversation emphasizes the need for careful monitoring and control in AI development to avoid unintended and potentially harmful outcomes, highlighting the nuanced considerations surrounding AI risk and the potential consequences of AI pursuing its objectives relentlessly. 04:00:00 - 04:15:00 Yudkowsky and Wolfram discuss the importance of thoroughly analyzing potential risks associated with advanced AI development, drawing parallels to historical scenarios like the Manhattan Project. They stress the complexity of evaluating and mitigating risks in new technological domains and the need for proactive measures to address existential catastrophes related to AI. Yudkowsky emphasizes the significance of refining intuitive calculations and making informed decisions to manage AI risks, while Wolfram highlights the importance of being open to persuasion and engaging in discussions to tackle global threats. Overall, the conversation underscores the necessity of thoughtful consideration and proactive planning when dealing with the uncertain outcomes of advanced AI technologies. ------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Tue Nov 12 10:21:56 2024 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2024 10:21:56 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Will Advanced Civilizations Ever Build Dyson Spheres? Message-ID: On 10/11/2024 21:54, Keith Henson wrote: > Uploaded biological creatures would need data centers. The centers > need energy from their star and radiation heat sinks, both favoring > large areas. This conflicts with the presumed need to communicate > with minimal delay due to the speed of light. > > I don't think free-floating computation nodes are a reasonable > engineering solution. Maybe I used the wrong word. I didn't mean individual nodes in a larger computing system, like neurons in a brain or something similar. I meant the same as you when you say 'data centres'. Each one would represent something in the range from a single individual to an entire civilisation, but not smaller than a single brain. So what does 'large areas' mean, when it comes to energy collection and heat dissipation? And what is an acceptable minimal delay in communications? A balance between these two would determine the size and shape of the individual data centres. It would seem to indicate a structure like a small spider in the middle of a large web, or a marble embedded in the centre of a large circular membrane. The marble would be the data centre, maybe on the metre scale, and the membrane the energy collection/dissipation part, on the km scale (10s, 100s, or 1000s of km). Processing speed, or 'thinking speed' would determine the range of sizes needed, and I think at some time you mentioned a one-metre sphere sunk in the deep ocean as being suitable for a data centre for minds running at 1 million times biological thinking speeds. I'd assume that something similar in free space would be like I describe above. Slower speeds would mean larger structures. So how large do you think one data centre (including its energy collection and heat sink) would be likely to be? I'm guessing something between 10km and 1000km in diameter, and very thin. So trillions of these could be spread out round a star, and probably be fairly invisible from a distance. Or do you think the data centres would be humungous? As you say, this conflicts with speed-of-light delay, and I'm wondering what would be the point of connecting individual collections of computing substrate with solid mass rather than empty space? Would this be necessary for the energy collection etc? So you'd have a huge plate of solar collectors and heat sinks, with individual processing centres dotted about in it? Or something else? I'm not a numbers guy, and I know that you (and others here) are, and I know better than to argue with the numbers, so what do the numbers say? Lots of small (relatively small, on a solar-system scale. Say no bigger than 5000km) units spread out around a star, or one (or a few) ginormously huge structures*, hundreds of times bigger in area than the surface of earth, easily detectable from a distance? Or are there other options that make more sense? And how does what we see at Tabby's star etc., fit in with this? -- Ben * Interesting question: How big could a huge flat (or curved) continuous structure be? There must be factors that limit the size (gravitational forces, tensile strength, perhaps other things)? Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Tue Nov 12 19:01:44 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2024 11:01:44 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Will Advanced Civilizations Ever Build Dyson Spheres? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 12, 2024 at 2:23?AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > snip > So what does 'large areas' mean, when it comes to energy collection and heat dissipation? The largest dip in light from Tabby's star is an object 409 times the area of the Earth. Even out at 7.8 AU it intercepts 1.4 million times the energy humans use. It does not seem to be in thermal equilibrium which makes me think they are using directional radiation such as I proposed for thermal power satellites years ago. > And what is an acceptable minimal delay in communications? As a square, the object would be around 450,000 km on a side. That's 1.5 seconds edge to edge at light speed. > A balance between these two would determine the size and shape of the individual data centres. > > It would seem to indicate a structure like a small spider in the middle of a large web, or a marble embedded in the centre of a large circular membrane. The marble would be the data centre, maybe on the metre scale, and the membrane the energy collection/dissipation part, on the km scale (10s, 100s, or 1000s of km). > > Processing speed, or 'thinking speed' would determine the range of sizes needed, and I think at some time you mentioned a one-metre sphere sunk in the deep ocean as being suitable for a data centre for minds running at 1 million times biological thinking speeds. I'd assume that something similar in free space would be like I describe above. https://web.archive.org/web/20121130232045/http://hplusmagazine.com/2012/04/12/transhumanism-and-the-human-expansion-into-space-a-conflict-with-physics/ That's my case for what it would take to run a million times faster. If what we see at Tabby's star is an uploaded civilization, then they went a different way. > Slower speeds would mean larger structures. > > So how large do you think one data centre (including its energy collection and heat sink) would be likely to be? Energy and heat sinks favor large areas, Communication delays favor small objects. > I'm guessing something between 10km and 1000km in diameter, and very thin. So trillions of these could be spread out round a star, and probably be fairly invisible from a distance. > > Or do you think the data centres would be humungous? At least the largest seen to date around Tabby's star is huge. Supprised me. Keith > As you say, this conflicts with speed-of-light delay, and I'm wondering what would be the point of connecting individual collections of computing substrate with solid mass rather than empty space? Would this be necessary for the energy collection etc? So you'd have a huge plate of solar collectors and heat sinks, with individual processing centres dotted about in it? Or something else? > > I'm not a numbers guy, and I know that you (and others here) are, and I know better than to argue with the numbers, so what do the numbers say? Lots of small (relatively small, on a solar-system scale. Say no bigger than 5000km) units spread out around a star, or one (or a few) ginormously huge structures*, hundreds of times bigger in area than the surface of earth, easily detectable from a distance? > > Or are there other options that make more sense? > > And how does what we see at Tabby's star etc., fit in with this? > > -- > > Ben > > * Interesting question: How big could a huge flat (or curved) continuous structure be? There must be factors that limit the size > (gravitational forces, tensile strength, perhaps other things)? > > Ben > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From spike at rainier66.com Thu Nov 14 16:03:32 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2024 08:03:32 -0800 Subject: [ExI] amateur detectives Message-ID: <006601db36ae$c1e4ac40$45ae04c0$@rainier66.com> I have been having a lotta fun on a site for car enthusiasts. A local wanted help identifying the perpetrator of a hit and run. The drunken fool left his bumper behind when he fled: He posted to the site. Within minutes an amateur detective came back with Oh, sure, Honda CR-V, first generation, about 2000 model, like this one: Heh. It really shouldn't be all that difficult for the constables to spot a 2000 CR-V with the front bumper missing, perhaps have a little friendly chat with the owner. The ossifer could offer the address of a local homeowner who has a front bumper for sale, used and lightly damaged, but with some nifty LED aftermarket lights, which might exactly fit this mysteriously bumperless chariot. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 16463 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 28194 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Nov 14 20:26:04 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2024 20:26:04 +0000 Subject: [ExI] amateur detectives In-Reply-To: <006601db36ae$c1e4ac40$45ae04c0$@rainier66.com> References: <006601db36ae$c1e4ac40$45ae04c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 at 16:06, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > He posted to the site. Within minutes an amateur detective came back with Oh, sure, Honda CR-V, first generation, about 2000 model, like this one: > > spike > _______________________________________________ I asked the latest Gemini AI and it said Honda, but wrong model. So I corrected it. It was most apologetic. :) BillK --------------------------- Gemini AI. You are absolutely right! My apologies for the initial misidentification. After looking closer and comparing, the bumper in the image is indeed more consistent with a circa 2000 Honda CR-V. The first generation Honda CR-V (1997-2001) specifically has a very similar bumper design to the one in your picture. Key features that match include: Simple, rounded shape: The CR-V of that era had a relatively simple, rounded bumper. Small, rectangular fog light housings (if present): The picture is a bit blurry, but the general area where fog lights would be matches the CR-V's layout. Lower air intake: The shape and placement of the lower air intake are also consistent. Thank you for pointing out my mistake! The first generation CR-V bumper is definitely a closer match. ------------------------ From tcporco at gmail.com Fri Nov 15 07:43:04 2024 From: tcporco at gmail.com (Travis Porco) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2024 23:43:04 -0800 Subject: [ExI] FM-2030 Message-ID: Does anyone know who holds the copyrights to FM-2030's books? They need to be available on Kindle and it's hard to even find used versions now. --tcp From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Nov 15 08:00:03 2024 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2024 00:00:03 -0800 Subject: [ExI] FM-2030 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No, but you might ask Alcor. Keith On Thu, Nov 14, 2024 at 11:44?PM Travis Porco via extropy-chat wrote: > > Does anyone know who holds the copyrights to FM-2030's books? They > need to be available on Kindle and it's hard to even find used > versions now. --tcp > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From spike at rainier66.com Fri Nov 15 22:14:19 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2024 14:14:19 -0800 Subject: [ExI] amateur detectives Message-ID: <004a01db37ab$b83e5670$28bb0350$@rainier66.com> On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 at 16:06, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > >>. He posted to the site. Within minutes an amateur detective came back with Oh, sure, Honda CR-V, first generation, about 2000 model, like this one: > > spike > _______________________________________________ >.I asked the latest Gemini AI and it said Honda, but wrong model. So I corrected it. It was most apologetic. :) BillK --------------------------- Gemini AI. >.You are absolutely right! My apologies for the initial misidentification. After looking closer and comparing, the bumper in the image is indeed more consistent with a circa 2000 Honda CR-V.. ------------------------ BillK, it is clear the future doesn't need us. I have spent most of my life noticing irrelevant details about cars and motorcycles, just because I like them. But I don't know 1% of the model years and makes, for there are far too many of them. I didn't know this Honda for instance. The software's database is arbitrarily large. Ours is very limited. The future doesn't need us. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Nov 15 22:41:03 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2024 22:41:03 +0000 Subject: [ExI] amateur detectives In-Reply-To: <004a01db37ab$b83e5670$28bb0350$@rainier66.com> References: <004a01db37ab$b83e5670$28bb0350$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Nov 2024 at 22:16, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > BillK, it is clear the future doesn?t need us. > > I have spent most of my life noticing irrelevant details about cars and motorcycles, just because I like them. But I don?t know 1% of the model years and makes, for there are far too many of them. I didn?t know this Honda for instance. The software?s database is arbitrarily large. Ours is very limited. The future doesn?t need us. > > spike > _______________________________________________ Surely there must be something left for humans to do........ But, now there is this........ Why people now prefer chatbot poetry to the classics By Tom Bawden November 14, 2024 Quote: Poetry that has been generated by artificial intelligence is now so lifelike that people can?t accurately distinguish it from verses written by some of the greatest poets of all time, a study has found. The study, published in the journal Scientific Reports, shows for the first time that people are routinely unable to clearly differentiate between poetry written by AI and that written by humans. ------------------ And usually people prefer the AI poetry, because it is easier to understand. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Sun Nov 17 01:27:13 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2024 17:27:13 -0800 Subject: [ExI] i just can't get enough of this Message-ID: <001f01db388f$d52cbf80$7f863e80$@rainier66.com> I am a hopeless addict: https://twitter.com/i/status/1857449911215706118 Gotta have it. Gotta have more of it. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sun Nov 17 10:06:03 2024 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2024 11:06:03 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Terasem Colloquium on December 14 Message-ID: Mark your calendar for the Terasem Colloquium on December 14. Also, my recent writings at Mindplex. https://www.turingchurch.com/p/mark-your-calendar-for-the-terasem From pharos at gmail.com Mon Nov 18 10:57:20 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2024 10:57:20 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Robot that watched surgery videos performs with skill of human doctor Message-ID: Robot that watched surgery videos performs with skill of human doctor. Breakthrough training system utilizing imitation learning opens 'new frontier' in medical robotics. By Jill Rosen Published Nov 11, 2024 Quotes: The successful use of imitation learning to train surgical robots eliminates the need to program robots with each individual move required during a medical procedure and brings the field of robotic surgery closer to true autonomy, where robots could perform complex surgeries without human help. "It's really magical to have this model and all we do is feed it camera input and it can predict the robotic movements needed for surgery," said senior author Axel Krieger, an assistant professor in JHU's Department of Mechanical Engineering. "We believe this marks a significant step forward toward a new frontier in medical robotics." While the da Vinci system is widely used, researchers say it's notoriously imprecise. But the team found a way to make the flawed input work. The key was training the model to perform relative movements rather than absolute actions, which are inaccurate. "All we need is image input and then this AI system finds the right action," said lead author Ji Woong "Brian" Kim, a postdoctoral researcher at Johns Hopkins. "We find that even with a few hundred demos, the model is able to learn the procedure and generalize new environments it hasn't encountered." Added Krieger: "The model is so good learning things we haven't taught it. Like if it drops the needle, it will automatically pick it up and continue. This isn't something I taught it do." ------------- AI chatbots are already helping doctors diagnose medical problems. Now they have started to do the surgery as well! BillK From pharos at gmail.com Mon Nov 18 13:01:53 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2024 13:01:53 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Chinese robotic wolves capture widespread attention Message-ID: Robotic wolves capture widespread attention at ongoing Airshow China 2024-11-14 Quotes: The pack consists of four different robotic wolves, which can undertake versatile tasks. One wolf is equipped with reconnaissance equipment that can operate on the front lines. The comprehensive supporting wolf is tasked with transporting ammunition supplies. The remaining two wolves are armed with firearms that can serve as the primary combat forces. Compared to the commonly known robotic dogs, these wolves adopted the concept of group combat, enabling "human-vehicle-wolf" interconnection, ensuring information sharing and dynamic autonomous coordination. ------------- Includes short 1 min 43 sec video. They use AI 'swarm' intelligence to control the group. Oh, and there are civilian uses as well. BillK From avant at sollegro.com Tue Nov 19 01:19:15 2024 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2024 17:19:15 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Virologist cures herself of breast cancer with a lab grown virus Message-ID: Virologist Beata Halassy one-upped Louis Pasteur for DIY medicine and injected her own breast tumor with an experimental lab-grown virus and cured herself of breast cancer. The experts predicatably say, "Don't try this at home kids." Here is a link to the paywalled Nature article. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-024-03647-0 If somebody with a subscription could email me the pdf off-list, I would appreciate. :) Stuart LaForge From efc at disroot.org Tue Nov 19 09:45:43 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2024 10:45:43 +0100 (CET) Subject: [ExI] Virologist cures herself of breast cancer with a lab grown virus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Nov 2024, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote: > Virologist Beata Halassy one-upped Louis Pasteur for DIY medicine and > injected her own breast tumor with an experimental lab-grown virus and cured > herself of breast cancer. The experts predicatably say, "Don't try this at > home kids." > > Here is a link to the paywalled Nature article. > > https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-024-03647-0 > > If somebody with a subscription could email me the pdf off-list, I would > appreciate. :) Here you go Stuart! https://archive.is/5O4MZ A tip is, when you encounter paywalls, try adding archive.is first to the URL and very often you can find a cached copy. So for the url: www.xyz.com, if it has a paywall, add this: https://archive.is/www.xyz.com and if you're lucky you can then view the content. Best regards, Daniel > Stuart LaForge > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From pharos at gmail.com Tue Nov 19 17:41:35 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2024 17:41:35 +0000 Subject: [ExI] SpaceX to launch Starship Flight 6 today 19 Nov. Message-ID: Live coverage: SpaceX to launch Starship Flight 6 test mission from Starbase in southern Texas November 19, 2024 Will Robinson-Smith < https://spaceflightnow.com/2024/11/19/live-coverage-spacex-to-launch-starship-flight-6-test-mission-from-starbase-in-southern-texas/ > Quote: Liftoff of the suborbital flight from Pad 1 at Starbase at Boca Chica Beach, Texas, is set for 4 p.m. CST (5 p.m. EST, 2200 UTC). Spaceflight Now will begin joint live coverage alongside LabPadre beginning about 1.5 hours before launch. The mission will feature another attempt by SpaceX to catch its Super Heavy booster back at the launch pad using its ?Mechazilla? tower. The launch team will closely track data on both the rocket and the tower before making a call on if they are in a good position to catch the 71 m (232 ft) first stage. ------------------ Link in the article to Live Coverage. Of course, there may be delays or postponements of these test launches. BillK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Tue Nov 19 17:56:20 2024 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2024 10:56:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] SpaceX to launch Starship Flight 6 today 19 Nov. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: woo hoo! I traveled down there to watch IFT 3, and almost went down to see this one. What an experience. On Tue, Nov 19, 2024 at 10:43?AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Live coverage: SpaceX to launch Starship Flight 6 test mission from > Starbase in southern Texas > November 19, 2024 Will Robinson-Smith > > < > https://spaceflightnow.com/2024/11/19/live-coverage-spacex-to-launch-starship-flight-6-test-mission-from-starbase-in-southern-texas/ > > > Quote: > Liftoff of the suborbital flight from Pad 1 at Starbase at Boca Chica > Beach, Texas, is set for 4 p.m. CST (5 p.m. EST, 2200 UTC). > Spaceflight Now will begin joint live coverage alongside LabPadre > beginning about 1.5 hours before launch. > > The mission will feature another attempt by SpaceX to catch its Super > Heavy booster back at the launch pad using its ?Mechazilla? tower. The > launch team will closely track data on both the rocket and the tower before > making a call on if they are in a good position to catch the 71 m (232 ft) > first stage. > ------------------ > > Link in the article to Live Coverage. > Of course, there may be delays or postponements of these test launches. > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Nov 19 21:27:57 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2024 21:27:57 +0000 Subject: [ExI] SpaceX to launch Starship Flight 6 today 19 Nov. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Nov 2024 at 17:58, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat wrote: > > woo hoo! > I traveled down there to watch IFT 3, and almost went down to see this one. > What an experience. > _______________________________________________ Still Go for launch in about 30 minutes. Trump and Musk watching. Sky News channel showing the launch on UK tv. BillK From avant at sollegro.com Wed Nov 20 14:10:23 2024 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2024 06:10:23 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Virologist cures herself of breast cancer with a lab grown virus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2d406f40c5f30584fe60483638b5dffc@sollegro.com> On 2024-11-19 01:45, efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > On Mon, 18 Nov 2024, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote: > >> Virologist Beata Halassy one-upped Louis Pasteur for DIY medicine and >> injected her own breast tumor with an experimental lab-grown virus and >> cured herself of breast cancer. The experts predicatably say, "Don't >> try this at home kids." >> >> Here is a link to the paywalled Nature article. >> >> https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-024-03647-0 >> >> If somebody with a subscription could email me the pdf off-list, I >> would appreciate. :) > > Here you go Stuart! > > https://archive.is/5O4MZ > > A tip is, when you encounter paywalls, try adding archive.is first to > the URL and very often you can find a cached copy. > > So for the url: www.xyz.com, if it has a paywall, add this: > > https://archive.is/www.xyz.com and if you're lucky you can then view > the content. > > Best regards, > Daniel Thanks, Daniel, but I wanted to discuss the libertarian aspect of self-experimentation rather than pay walls. What do you think about what Halassy did? Was it brave or reckless and irresponsible? Do people have a right to experiment on their own bodies? Stuart LaForge From spike at rainier66.com Wed Nov 20 16:01:36 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2024 08:01:36 -0800 Subject: [ExI] new job Message-ID: <004801db3b65$7b60d1c0$72227540$@rainier66.com> Well, OK not exactly. But it occurred to me that a lot of fun new jobs today didn't even exist back in the olden days, such as 2020. Musk introduced the robotaxi last month, which we talked about here for decades. In all that discussion, nobody ever realized a new requirement: somebody to write fun wisecracks for the taxi to say. Since it is a computer with voice, you could have it do accents, you could have it guess by the name on the credit card if the passenger is male or female. Then have it say upon arrival in a female voice: OK Mister, you wanted to come here. You did. Now get outta me. That sorta thing, extra points for funny dual-interpretable sexual innuendo. Sure you will offend the delicate college student crowd, but the little old ladies will love it. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Wed Nov 20 17:17:44 2024 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2024 09:17:44 -0800 Subject: [ExI] new job In-Reply-To: <004801db3b65$7b60d1c0$72227540$@rainier66.com> References: <004801db3b65$7b60d1c0$72227540$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On 2024-11-20 08:01, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > Well, OK not exactly. But it occurred to me that a lot of fun new > jobs today didn't even exist back in the olden days, such as 2020. > > Musk introduced the robotaxi last month, which we talked about here > for decades. In all that discussion, nobody ever realized a new > requirement: somebody to write fun wisecracks for the taxi to say. > Since it is a computer with voice, you could have it do accents, you > could have it guess by the name on the credit card if the passenger is > male or female. Then have it say upon arrival in a female voice: OK > Mister, you wanted to come here. You did. Now get outta me. > > That sorta thing, extra points for funny dual-interpretable sexual > innuendo. Sure you will offend the delicate college student crowd, > but the little old ladies will love it. Joking aside, one more job I can think of that robotaxis wiil create is somebody to clean the vomit and urine out of the robocab after drunks puke or pee in the cab on the way home from barhopping. Used to be the driver's responsibility, now it is Elon's. Elon will probably delegate. Stuart LaForge From pharos at gmail.com Wed Nov 20 17:35:04 2024 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2024 17:35:04 +0000 Subject: [ExI] new job In-Reply-To: <004801db3b65$7b60d1c0$72227540$@rainier66.com> References: <004801db3b65$7b60d1c0$72227540$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 at 16:03, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > Musk introduced the robotaxi last month, which we talked about here for decades. In all that discussion, nobody ever realized a new requirement: somebody to write fun wisecracks for the taxi to say. Since it is a computer with voice, you could have it do accents, you could have it guess by the name on the credit card if the passenger is male or female. > spike > _______________________________________________ Surely one big advantage of robotaxis is that you *don't* have to listen to the driver! :) If you want to, you can always chat to central control about being stuck between two robotaxis and neither will give way. BillK From steinberg.will at gmail.com Wed Nov 20 17:36:37 2024 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2024 12:36:37 -0500 Subject: [ExI] new job In-Reply-To: References: <004801db3b65$7b60d1c0$72227540$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I?m imagining cleaning the vomit from the car in one of the only human jobs remaining while the car has malfunctioned and is now relentlessly trying to hit on me On Wed, Nov 20, 2024 at 12:18?PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2024-11-20 08:01, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > Well, OK not exactly. But it occurred to me that a lot of fun new > > jobs today didn't even exist back in the olden days, such as 2020. > > > > Musk introduced the robotaxi last month, which we talked about here > > for decades. In all that discussion, nobody ever realized a new > > requirement: somebody to write fun wisecracks for the taxi to say. > > Since it is a computer with voice, you could have it do accents, you > > could have it guess by the name on the credit card if the passenger is > > male or female. Then have it say upon arrival in a female voice: OK > > Mister, you wanted to come here. You did. Now get outta me. > > > > That sorta thing, extra points for funny dual-interpretable sexual > > innuendo. Sure you will offend the delicate college student crowd, > > but the little old ladies will love it. > > Joking aside, one more job I can think of that robotaxis wiil create is > somebody to clean the vomit and urine out of the robocab after drunks > puke or pee in the cab on the way home from barhopping. Used to be the > driver's responsibility, now it is Elon's. Elon will probably delegate. > > Stuart LaForge > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Thu Nov 21 09:55:25 2024 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2024 09:55:25 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Virologist cures herself of breast cancer with a lab grown virus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0c4adab2-6e93-40ae-9152-cf5fd4fb4b36@zaiboc.net> On 20/11/2024 17:37, Stuart LaForge wrote: > > Virologist Beata Halassy one-upped Louis Pasteur for DIY medicine and > injected her own breast tumor with an experimental lab-grown virus and > cured herself of breast cancer. The experts predictably say, "Don't > try this at home kids." So somebody (allegedly) cures themselves of cancer, and all the fuss is about "the ethics of self-experimentation". Clearly, making up rules, then making sure people follow them is more important than curing cancer. We live in strange and baffling times. -- Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From efc at disroot.org Thu Nov 21 10:41:14 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2024 11:41:14 +0100 (CET) Subject: [ExI] Virologist cures herself of breast cancer with a lab grown virus In-Reply-To: <2d406f40c5f30584fe60483638b5dffc@sollegro.com> References: <2d406f40c5f30584fe60483638b5dffc@sollegro.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Nov 2024, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote: > On 2024-11-19 01:45, efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: >> On Mon, 18 Nov 2024, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote: >> >>> Virologist Beata Halassy one-upped Louis Pasteur for DIY medicine and >>> injected her own breast tumor with an experimental lab-grown virus and >>> cured herself of breast cancer. The experts predicatably say, "Don't try >>> this at home kids." >>> >>> Here is a link to the paywalled Nature article. >>> >>> https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-024-03647-0 >>> >>> If somebody with a subscription could email me the pdf off-list, I would >>> appreciate. :) >> >> Here you go Stuart! >> >> https://archive.is/5O4MZ >> >> A tip is, when you encounter paywalls, try adding archive.is first to the >> URL and very often you can find a cached copy. >> >> So for the url: www.xyz.com, if it has a paywall, add this: >> >> https://archive.is/www.xyz.com and if you're lucky you can then view the >> content. >> >> Best regards, >> Daniel > > Thanks, Daniel, but I wanted to discuss the libertarian aspect of > self-experimentation rather than pay walls. What do you think about what > Halassy did? Was it brave or reckless and irresponsible? Do people have a > right to experiment on their own bodies? Given her training and expertise in the area, as well as the fact that she probably had the support of colleagues, I think this is great! As long as you harm no one else, I do not see why you should not have the right to experiment with your own body. Since I am not an expert in medicine, I would be very interested in knowing what kind of experiments, anyone at home could do, that would result in mutating viruses or other things, which might risk the lives of others? Best regards, Daniel > Stuart LaForge > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From efc at disroot.org Thu Nov 21 10:42:22 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2024 11:42:22 +0100 (CET) Subject: [ExI] new job In-Reply-To: References: <004801db3b65$7b60d1c0$72227540$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <7bfc94aa-961e-a752-0d53-58133a88a87f@disroot.org> On Wed, 20 Nov 2024, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote: > On 2024-11-20 08:01, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >> Well, OK not exactly. But it occurred to me that a lot of fun new >> jobs today didn't even exist back in the olden days, such as 2020. >> >> Musk introduced the robotaxi last month, which we talked about here >> for decades. In all that discussion, nobody ever realized a new >> requirement: somebody to write fun wisecracks for the taxi to say. >> Since it is a computer with voice, you could have it do accents, you >> could have it guess by the name on the credit card if the passenger is >> male or female. Then have it say upon arrival in a female voice: OK >> Mister, you wanted to come here. You did. Now get outta me. >> >> That sorta thing, extra points for funny dual-interpretable sexual >> innuendo. Sure you will offend the delicate college student crowd, >> but the little old ladies will love it. > > Joking aside, one more job I can think of that robotaxis wiil create is > somebody to clean the vomit and urine out of the robocab after drunks puke or > pee in the cab on the way home from barhopping. Used to be the driver's > responsibility, now it is Elon's. Elon will probably delegate. I think you just answered the question of what the displaced human taxi drivers will work with, once self-driving becomes the norm! > Stuart LaForge > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From mbb386 at main.nc.us Thu Nov 21 13:10:57 2024 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2024 08:10:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Virologist cures herself of breast cancer with a lab grown virus In-Reply-To: <0c4adab2-6e93-40ae-9152-cf5fd4fb4b36@zaiboc.net> References: <0c4adab2-6e93-40ae-9152-cf5fd4fb4b36@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <70a392681e23bd365cc7d4f1d76cdfec.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> "My Body, My Choice" only applies to abortion? Regards, MB > On 20/11/2024 17:37, Stuart LaForge wrote: >> >> Virologist Beata Halassy one-upped Louis Pasteur for DIY medicine and >> injected her own breast tumor with an experimental lab-grown virus and >> cured herself of breast cancer. The experts predictably say, "Don't >> try this at home kids." > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From spike at rainier66.com Thu Nov 21 15:10:13 2024 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2024 07:10:13 -0800 Subject: [ExI] robocar wash Message-ID: <005601db3c27$778e09b0$66aa1d10$@rainier66.com> On Wed, 20 Nov 2024, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote: > On 2024-11-20 08:01, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >> . female voice: >> OK Mister, you wanted to come here. You did. Now get outta me. >> >> That sorta thing, extra points for funny dual-interpretable sexual >> innuendo. Sure you will offend the delicate college student crowd, >> but the little old ladies will love it. > > Joking aside, one more job I can think of that robotaxis wiil create > is somebody to clean the vomit and urine out of the robocab after > drunks puke or pee in the cab on the way home from barhopping. . > Stuart LaForge I thought of that. A robocab could be build with disposable pads not attached to the seats, like those things a prole would take to the football stadium. The computer screen and seat pads come out, the rest of it can be cleaned with a high pressure hose. We have those devices that go into an internet refrigerator which can tell when you are out of something: those could be in there informing the company if some drunken prole has barfed or spilled his seed onboard, it comes in, opens its doors, robocar wash takes over. There's already a song for it. Substitute a few words from the Rose Royce song and you get: Eeeeelon Musk will surely get rich With the rest of us digging a ditch. Ain't nobody there to meet No movie star to Indian Chief No work at the robocar wash, No work at the robocar wash yea, Come on, sing it with me, robocar wash. Etc. https://genius.com/Rose-royce-car-wash-lyrics WOWsers, this song is nearly 50 years old, oh I am such a geezer: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=rose+royce+song+car+wash &t=chromentp&iax=videos&ia=videos&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch% 3Fv%3DeB0aROCl530 There is no point denying the obvious: we need to think of new low-skill jobs. Fun aside, I have seen this video a dozen times but I just noticed that last scene. The photo of John F. Kennedy, next to it Martin Luther King. He is hanging a photo of. Richard Pryor. {8^D spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Nov 21 17:57:46 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2024 12:57:46 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Virologist cures herself of breast cancer with a lab grown virus In-Reply-To: <0c4adab2-6e93-40ae-9152-cf5fd4fb4b36@zaiboc.net> References: <0c4adab2-6e93-40ae-9152-cf5fd4fb4b36@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 21, 2024 at 4:56?AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > So somebody (allegedly) cures themselves of cancer, and all the fuss is > about "the ethics of self-experimentation". > Issue 1: did she actually cure herself? Did she have cancer, does she now not have cancer, and are there any notable negative-to-her side effects? Issue 2: is the procedure well enough documented to allow replication, or will this result in a bunch of people poisoning themselves? Not her fault, but still a potential problem. Those aside, yes, most of the talk about "ethics" in practice is about, "how dare that person take personal sovereignty over something that we are the self-appointed experts and masters of." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Thu Nov 21 19:58:48 2024 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2024 11:58:48 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Virologist cures herself of breast cancer with a lab grown virus In-Reply-To: References: <0c4adab2-6e93-40ae-9152-cf5fd4fb4b36@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <570a365a-bc8c-4206-9f30-9d11cd2e3268@pobox.com> On 2024-11-21 09:57, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > Those aside, yes, most of the talk about "ethics" in practice is about, > "how dare that person take personal sovereignty over something that we > are the self-appointed experts and masters of." Imagine applying a consent standard to matters other than sex! Our world as we know it could crumble. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From atymes at gmail.com Thu Nov 21 20:11:13 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2024 15:11:13 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Virologist cures herself of breast cancer with a lab grown virus In-Reply-To: <570a365a-bc8c-4206-9f30-9d11cd2e3268@pobox.com> References: <0c4adab2-6e93-40ae-9152-cf5fd4fb4b36@zaiboc.net> <570a365a-bc8c-4206-9f30-9d11cd2e3268@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 21, 2024 at 2:58?PM Anton Sherwood wrote: > On 2024-11-21 09:57, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > Those aside, yes, most of the talk about "ethics" in practice is about, > > "how dare that person take personal sovereignty over something that we > > are the self-appointed experts and masters of." > > Imagine applying a consent standard to matters other than sex! > Our world as we know it could crumble. > More to the point: if one needed to obtain consent from every party who claims to need to give consent. Ordinary rent-seekers ("you didn't pay me for my okay for this specific instance") would just be the start of the problems; evolved forms might require all manner of other compensation ("you need to vote my preferred candidate into office"/"you need to post on social media affirming our position"/etc.), and then there's merely tracking down everyone who will have their hands out - which act of tracking will likely inspire some to put their hands out, encouraging people to keep these activities secret (with all the problems that results in). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Fri Nov 22 04:55:13 2024 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2024 20:55:13 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Virologist cures herself of breast cancer with a lab grown virus In-Reply-To: References: <0c4adab2-6e93-40ae-9152-cf5fd4fb4b36@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On 2024-11-21 09:57, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > On Thu, Nov 21, 2024 at 4:56?AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > wrote: > >> So somebody (allegedly) cures themselves of cancer, and all the fuss >> is about "the ethics of self-experimentation". > > Issue 1: did she actually cure herself? Did she have cancer, does she > now not have cancer, and are there any notable negative-to-her side > effects? Here is the documentation of her experiment: https://www.mdpi.com/2076-393X/12/9/958 She is a Croatian virologist at the University of Zagreb. She probably has her own lab and some graduate students and postdocs working with her. She got breast cancer in 2018 and had recurred several times after several rounds of conventional treatment. I imagine that it had become unresponsive to chemo and it had become invasive sending tendrils into her muscle tissue. She published her own case study as the senior author in "Vaccines" which is an official journal but it has a low impact rating. She does not have a lot of data, which is possibly why she did not publish it in a higher tier journal like Nature Medicine, but she probably also had an Eastern European-sized research budget. She injected her invasive breast tumor with a measles vaccine (a live attenuated strain of the virus) twice a week for a month most likely to recruit a robust immune response in the tumor. Then she injected her tumor with vesicular stomatitis virus (VSV), a cow virus that can make humans who work with cattle sick with flu-like symptoms but can't spread from person to person because healthy human cells make interferon which prevents it from replicating. But some cancers have mutated cells with defective interferon responses. VSV can replicate in these defective cancer cells and so selectively kills cancer cells due to their malfunctioning interferon response. VSV has previously been used to selectively kill glioma brain tumors in mice. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6671450/ The pathology slides in her paper show a legitimate killer T-cell response in the tumor sections and lots of B-cell and macrophage activity. Her immune system was definitely attacking the tumor. When they surgically removed her tumor, it had lost its "tendrils" and become more smooth and flat shrinking to about 1/3 its original size and was no longer invading her muscle tissue. The medical insurance industry standard for what is considered "curing cancer" is the patient surviving for 5 years without a recurrence or relapse. So we will have to wait and see. The data seems legit and promising, but very sparse. > Issue 2: is the procedure well enough documented to allow replication, > or will this result in a bunch of people poisoning themselves? Not > her fault, but still a potential problem. The technique itself well-documented enough to reproduce. But it would not work with every type of cancer. Just the ones that have malfunctioning interferon responses. The problem with cancer has always been that it is not a single disease but many, based on different ways that cell replication can glitch and become uncontrolled. The trick is to figure out ways to selectively kill the malfunctioning cells and leave the healthy ones alive. Measles vaccine and VSV are relatively safe, but there is a small non-zero chance that VSV could mutate or be engineered to develop human-to-human infectivity. Of course the existence of antivaxxers, especially in government, could complicate definitions of safety. VSV is a widely used lab virus model and nobody has ever died of it that I know of. > Those aside, yes, most of the talk about "ethics" in practice is > about, "how dare that person take personal sovereignty over something > that we are the self-appointed experts and masters of." Agreed. Stuart LaForge From giulio at gmail.com Fri Nov 22 06:48:28 2024 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2024 07:48:28 +0100 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Virologist cures herself of breast cancer with a lab grown virus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I wrote this short news brief about this: https://magazine.mindplex.ai/mp_news/scientist-successfully-treats-her-own-cancer-with-viruses/ On Tue, Nov 19, 2024 at 2:19?AM Stuart LaForge wrote: > > Virologist Beata Halassy one-upped Louis Pasteur for DIY medicine and > injected her own breast tumor with an experimental lab-grown virus and > cured herself of breast cancer. The experts predicatably say, "Don't try > this at home kids." > > Here is a link to the paywalled Nature article. > > https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-024-03647-0 > > If somebody with a subscription could email me the pdf off-list, I would > appreciate. :) > > Stuart LaForge > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/eab425df4bcf06020d173349fc3eca82%40sollegro.com. From atymes at gmail.com Fri Nov 22 14:42:17 2024 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2024 09:42:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Virologist cures herself of breast cancer with a lab grown virus In-Reply-To: References: <2d406f40c5f30584fe60483638b5dffc@sollegro.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 21, 2024 at 5:42?AM efc--- via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Given her training and expertise in the area, as well as the fact that she > probably had the support of colleagues, I think this is great! > > As long as you harm no one else, I do not see why you should not have the > right to experiment with your own body. > The problem comes with the unstated condition: "...and has a reasonable chance of success." What of those who have no clue and are all but guaranteed only to harm themselves if they try, such that they would either become society's ward whose welfare other people must pay for, or unfit for normal work and left only able to prey upon others (in the criminal sense, not - necessarily - the cannibalistic) to survive? This is among the more coherent objections of those who warn against the masses being allowed to try such things on their own. And in that sense, even this example was not truly on her own. Surely she discussed her plans with her colleagues (who were presumably trained and competent like her), both to review beforehand and to help monitor immediately after treatment, yes? If this was permitted without limitation, many - likely most - cases would not have that benefit. > Since I am not an expert in medicine, I would be very interested in > knowing what kind of experiments, anyone at home could do, that would > result in mutating viruses or other things, which might risk the lives of > others? > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_case - aka "patient zero" - is the start: be the first host of an infectious disease. I think I recall a movie where the plot revolved around a bioterrorist who did just that, visiting as many airports as he could while his body held out (and then a time traveller from the resultant ravaged world going back to intercept said terrorist around or before the first airport). A better version would be to immunize oneself (and perhaps a small group one cared about) while still being a carrier. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimicrobial_resistance describes another possibility: cure a disease just enough to repress symptoms but still incubate the microbes in one's system, which can lead to the survival of the few microbes resistant to whatever cure was administered, which are usually cleaned up by the immune system once the other microbes are dealt with, but in this scenario are unintentionally (or, for those with ill intent, intentionally) left in large enough quantities to overcome that. And that's just stuff one can do in one's own body. https://www.google.com/search?q=how+to+create+a+bioweapon has lots of results. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From efc at disroot.org Fri Nov 22 19:09:00 2024 From: efc at disroot.org (efc at disroot.org) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2024 20:09:00 +0100 (CET) Subject: [ExI] Virologist cures herself of breast cancer with a lab grown virus In-Reply-To: References: <2d406f40c5f30584fe60483638b5dffc@sollegro.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Nov 2024, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > On Thu, Nov 21, 2024 at 5:42?AM efc--- via extropy-chat wrote: > Given her training and expertise in the area, as well as the fact that she > probably had the support of colleagues, I think this is great! > > As long as you harm no one else, I do not see why you should not have the > right to experiment with your own body. > > > The problem comes with the unstated condition: "...and has a reasonable chance of success." > > What of those who have no clue and are all but guaranteed only to harm themselves if they try, such that they would either become > society's ward whose welfare other people must pay for, or unfit for normal work and left only able to prey upon others (in the > criminal sense, not - necessarily - the cannibalistic) to survive?? This is among the more coherent objections of those who warn > against the masses being allowed to try such things on their own. That is their responsibility and theirs only. As for society, that's a political decision, and not an ethical one. If society is engineer to provide care, that can be changed, it can be ammended, for instance, should smokers or alcoholics be given free health care? Should people who do not exercise be exluded and so on. Overall this exemplifies beautifully the slippery slope of positive rights and serfdom. So if someone will be a burden to the health care system, I personally couldn't care less about, since I have never voted for, nor am a proponent of, publicly funded healthcare. With that said, I fully appreciate that a socialist would want to ban and severely punish people who experiment with their own bodies, since the government, in socialism, owns all property including your own body. > And in that sense, even this example was not truly on her own.? Surely she discussed her plans with her colleagues (who were > presumably trained and competent like her), both to review beforehand and to help monitor immediately after treatment, yes?? If this > was permitted without limitation, many - likely most - cases would not have that benefit. Why not? I'm sure that people with an interest in such experiments have access to internet, books and knowledge. I doubt a redneck in the middle of Alaska all of a sudden decides to turn biohacker. ? > Since I am not an expert in medicine, I would be very interested in > knowing what kind of experiments, anyone at home could do, that would > result in mutating viruses or other things, which might risk the lives of > others? > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_case - aka "patient zero" - is the start: be the first host of an infectious disease.? I think I > recall a movie where the plot revolved around a bioterrorist who did just that, visiting as many airports as he could while his body > held out (and then a time traveller from the resultant ravaged world going back to intercept said terrorist around or before the > first airport).? A better version would be to immunize oneself (and perhaps a small group one cared about) while still being a > carrier. These cases are very interesting! However, what is lacking is probability. These things can happen during official experiments as well (and have happened) so if this is a reason, we should not do any medical experiments at all, except for the most trivial ones. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimicrobial_resistance describes another possibility: cure a disease just enough to repress symptoms > but still incubate the microbes in one's system, which can lead to the survival of the few microbes resistant to whatever cure was > administered, which are usually cleaned up by the immune system once the other microbes are dealt with, but in this scenario are > unintentionally (or, for those with ill intent, intentionally) left in large enough quantities to overcome that. > > And that's just stuff one can do in one's own body.??https://www.google.com/search?q=how+to+create+a+bioweapon has lots of results. If someone has malicious intent, all bets are off anyways. This is actually my argument for that we are all engineered for overall and average goodness over badness, given the fact that we've had the capability to completely destroy our planet for decades, yet this has never happened. This tells me, at some level, even dictators, terrorist and eco-fascists want to life.